From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Thu Jan 1 00:14:10 2004 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:14:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <58304580-3BC2-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <200401010814.i018EAVs009659@artifact.psychedelic.net> Tim May observes: > Meanwhile, the "black folk" kept listening to Rev. Jess Jackson and > Rev. Al Sharpton tell them that they were owed reparations, that they > were owed a series of "entitlements." No suprise that a large fraction > of negro teens subscribe to the view that "reading be for whitey." In > fact, negroes have invented a whole series of insult terms for those > who study too much, for those who break out of the "field worker" > status: Uncle Toms, Oreos, etc. > Imagine where the Asians would be if Asian kids who did well in science > and math were taunted as race traitors? > "Math be for whitey. Reading be for whitey. We be owed repa-ations for > diskiminashun!!" In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. This is no problem in a society with an explicit class system. You just assign jobs to people based on their social class, with the untouchables getting the shit-hauling and scrubbing jobs, and the more attractive jobs going to their betters. Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a part of their political doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be wealthy and successful, so they can't openly have a class system. Of course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get it because you "didn't do well" in school, or you "dropped out, and "you could have been successful if you had just tried harder." Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. A well known experiment is to take some 10th graders, and divide them randomly into two groups. Send one to college, and make the others finish the remaining two years of high school. THere will be no statistically significant difference in their college performance, thus demonstrating that public schools do not teach, but merely act as filters through which only the most talented and sociable can pass. Now, minorities in this country, including almost all Asians, and quite a few blacks, have gotten with this program that "education is the way out of poverty," and have successfully turned the vicious education-based class system to their advantage, by trying to beat the dominant class at their own game, with varying degrees of success. This has required them to refrain from criticizing the system itself, because no one wins a beauty contest by having a bad attitude. I think that mentality is changing, and when you hear comments like "Reading be for whitey," what is being said is not that literacy and calculus and physics and chemistry are bad, in and of themselves, but that a system which rewards only "getting ahead by playing along" is not a arena in which these people choose to compete. Learning by doing is always vastly superior to learning by listening to someone else talk about doing. Now in a world where most jobs are not skilled people individually producing something in demand, but are the very lowest form of commoditized labor, the opportunity to screw such dissenters probably exceeds their ability to avoid being sent made to the back of the line. Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of other peoples tax money. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From jya at pipeline.com Thu Jan 1 00:19:39 2004 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:19:39 -0800 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism In-Reply-To: <3FF2D8A7.24399.B5CFD22@localhost> References: <5226A355-3BD2-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <15c.2a35ab04.2d245176@aol.com> Message-ID: >On 31 Dec 2003 at 12:45, Tim May wrote: >> People like Tyler Durden, James Donald, and John Young are >> using the tired old cliches about how it is "society that >> paid for business" and hence "society" has some right to take >> a cut of each transaction between Alice and Bob. No, Tyler, James and John said none of the alleged cliches. These are chimeras Tim fantasizes to buttress his demotic vainglory, bless his shriveled heart, his throbbing headcrimp. Still, I think Tim is the funniest of cypherpunks, though it takes a strong stomach, or a cruelty-is-pleasure likemind, to enjoy his dry as sand grist. Gypsies, as with welfare cheats, talk the talk of Tim, imitating those who disparage the outcast, who refuses to hold a steady job, too smart to fall for the call to pull your fair share load. When Tim gets going on his seemingly vile attacks on the downtrodden it is admirably like the downtrodden I grew up with: it takes one to know one, and their vulnerabilities, those of the outcast eager to hammer, ridicule, belly laugh at, those of similar condemnation by inbred supremacists, themselves not long out of the ghetto. Nietzsche called this shot as he too shot himself futilely professing claims of superiority. What can you do when society at large remains indifferent to your plight except propound your virtues despite those virtues being named by the dominant society as faults. Calvin spouted the lament of the excluded, proclaimed the outcasts the chosen, aping those who armed the peasants against their masters. Stigma is inescapable until you overthrow the stigmatizers, and in turn stigmatize others to maintain your evanescent superiority, as did your oppressors, and will do again as soon as they whip your lazy ass grown soft by belief you're impregnable. So goes the fall of empires, so goes the blinding conceit, crippling addiction, of supremacists of any skin hue, of any economic surety. The yawning grave beckons the folly peddlers of immortality, of singular salvation from terror of utter cessation. A joke, human aspiration for higher being. Thus spake Zarathrustra. From alanb at digistar.com Thu Jan 1 07:09:53 2004 From: alanb at digistar.com (Alan Brown) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:09:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [camram-spam] Re: Microsoft publicly announces Penny Black PoW postage project In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031230190058.029c8d90@idiom.com> References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20031230190058.029c8d90@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Bill Stewart wrote: > The reason it's partly a cryptographic problem is forgeries. > Once everybody starts whitelisting, spammers are going to > start forging headers to pretend to come from big mailing lists > and popular machines and authors, so now you'll not only > need to whitelist Dave Farber or Declan McCullough if you read their lists, > or Bob Hettinga if you're Tim (:-), you'll need to verify the > signature so that you can discard the forgeries that > pretend to be from them. > > You'll also see spammers increasingly _joining_ large mailing lists, > so that they can get around members-only features. This has already happened: Krazy Kevin pulled this stunt 5 years ago on at least one list I was on, joining the list to harvest the most common posters, then spamming using them as sender envelopes after he'd been kicked off. > At least one large mailing list farm on which I've joined a list > used a Turing-test GIF to make automated list joining difficult, ...discrimination against blind users - this is legally actionable in several countries. There is a blind group in the UK taking action against a number of companies for this and the Australian Olympic committee ended up being fined several million AU$ for the same offence in 1999. > and Yahoo limits the number of Yahoogroups you can join in a day, > but that's the kind of job which you hire groups of Indians > or other English-speaking third-world-wagers to do for you. To underscore that point, I've _watched_ cybercafes full of SE asians(*) doing exactly this kind of thing for the princely sum of US$5/day - twice the average wage of the area, even after the cafe fees were deducted. (*) Philippines and east Malaysia. AB --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at metzdowd.com From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 10:44:57 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:44:57 -0800 Subject: Skeptical about claim that stamp creation burns out modern CPUs In-Reply-To: <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> Message-ID: <98B691D5-3C8A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:13 AM, Eric S. Johansson wrote: > > actually, we mean burned literally. the stamp creation process raises > the temperature of the CPU. Most systems are not build for full tilt > computational load. They do not have the ventilation necessary for > reliable operation. So, they may get by with the first 8-12 hours of > stamp generation (i.e. roughly 2000-3000 stamps per machine) but the > machine reliability after that time will degrade as the heat builds > up. Feel free to run this experiment yourself. Take a cheat machine > from your local chop shop, run hashcash in an infinite loop, and wait > for the smoke detector to go off. > > there is nothing quite like waking up to the smell of freshly roasted > Intel. > I'm skeptical of this claim. A lot of Intel and AMD and similar machines are running full-tilt, "24/7." To wit, Beowulf-type clusters, the Macintosh G5 cluster that is now rated third fasted in the world, and so on. None of these machines is reported to be burning up literally. Likewise, a lot of home and corporate users are running background tasks which are at 100% CPU utilization. (Examples abound, from render farms to financial modeling to... Friends of mine run a bunch of 2 and 3 GHz Pentium 4 machines in CPU-bound apps, and they run them 24/7. (Their company, Invest by Agents, analyzes tens of thousands of stocks. They use ordinary Dells and have had no catastrophic "burned literally" failures.) Further, junction-to-case temperature in a ceramic package has a time constant of tens of seconds, meaning, the case temperature reaches something like 98% of its equilibrium value (as wattage reaches, say, 60 watts, or whatever), in tens of seconds. (For basic material and physics reasons...I used to make many of these measurements when I was at Intel, and nothing in the recent packaging has changed the physics of heat flow much.) We also used to run CPUs at 125 C ambient, under operating conditions, for weeks at a time. Here the junction temperature was upwards of 185 C. Failures occurred in various ways, usually do to electromigration and things like that. Almost never was there any kind of "fire." Just "burnout," which is a generic name but has nothing of course to do with "burning" in the chemical sense. Now I grant you that I haven't tested CPUs in this way in many years. But I am skeptical that recent CPUs are substantially different than past CPUs. I would like to see some actual reports of "burned literally" CPUs. By the way, I have run some apps on my Macintosh 1 GHz CPU which are CPU-bound. No burn ups. I'd like to see some support for the claim that running a stamp creation process is more likely to burn up a modern machine than all of these apps running financial modeling, render farms, and supercomputer clusters are doing. Until then, render me skeptical. --Tim May From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 10:53:00 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:53:00 -0800 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism and Hot Black Chicks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 31, 2003, at 5:53 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: > > PS: Is there any comment that Mr May would like to profer on the issue > of having been rejected by some hot black tail back in the day? (ie, > aside from "I'd like to see you are your infant children stripped of > epidermis and dipped in seasalt") > First, please stop including the entire message you are responding to, plus the parts you comment on. I dislike editing other people's sloppiness as much as I dislike paying for their breeding choices. Second, your comment above merits no response. --Tim May From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 11:11:38 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:11:38 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <534373A4-3C8E-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:51 AM, Tyler Durden wrote: > I'll tell you a story. > > Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford > Stuyvesant. 90% of my students were black. I regarded few of them as > stupid, but almost none of them saw the point of studying math...they > just didn't see how it could benefit them, and they said this to me on > a regular basis. > > First, please stop including the full text of the message you are replying to. Learn to use an editor, whether you ultimately top-post or bottom-post to edited fragments. Second, we are fast-moving toward a society and economy where only those who _wanted_ to study math and science by the time they were in high school will have anything more than a menial, makework job. Now whether they go the full course and get a college degree or advanced degree is not so much the point as it is that they were intrinsically interested. So if a kid in high school can't see the "benefit" of studying math, he shouldn't be. It's as simple as that. The parallel I like is one we developed (in Ted Kaehler's nanotechnology study group in the early 90s) for looking at what a society and economy might look like where the costs of material production are as close to zero as one might imagine. That is, a society with full-blown general assemblers, i.e., von Neumann replicators at the molecular, mechano-synthesis, Drexler-type scale. How would goods be produced and sold? How would markets exist/ The analogy I drew, in an essay, and that Howard Landman, Ted Kaehler, Mike Korns, and others added to was this: * We already have an example of an entire town and an entire industry where essentially the costs of material production are nearly zero. * Namely, Hollywood. Film stock is essentially free...bits even more so. Cameras remain expensive, but are vastly less so than they were a decade ago. Basically, everything material in Hollywood is nearly free. What is expensive is the creative talent, the know-how, the ensembles of actors and directors and writers and all. (And writing is itself a perfect example of material abundance. All of the money is in the writing and distribution, virtually none of it in the materials, or in the low skill segment.) Which is why some writers and some Hollywood types make tens of millions a year and most don't. * The society we are heading towards is one of an increasingly sharp division between the "skilled and in demand" end of the spectrum and the bulk of droids who have few skills in demand. (I argued this, circa 1991-2, to a bunch of people who basically bought the line that technology would bring wealth to the masses, blah blah. I argued that yes, the masses would have great material goods, just as the masses today have color tvs in their cribs. But the big money would elude them. Libertarian rhetoric about everybody being wealthy is only meaningful in the sense that even the poorest today are wealthy by Roman or Middle Ages or even Renaissance standards. But the split between those with talents in demand--the Peter Jacksons, the Stephen Kings, the Tim Berners-Lees, etc. and the "reading be for whitey" and "I don't see any benefit to studying math" vast bulk will widen.) Much more could be said on this. I recall I wrote some long articles along these lines in the early years of the list. In conclusion, your Bedford-Stuy student who doesn't see the point to studying math will never be a math researcher, or a physicist, or a chemist, or anything else of that sort. So no point in trying to convince him to study his math. It's like convincing a kid to start writing so he'll stand a chance of being the next Stephen King: if he needs convincing, he won't be. The burnoff of useless eaters will be glorious. --Tim May From esj at harvee.org Thu Jan 1 08:13:57 2004 From: esj at harvee.org (Eric S. Johansson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 11:13:57 -0500 Subject: [camram-spam] Re: Microsoft publicly announces Penny Black PoW postage project In-Reply-To: <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> Message-ID: <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> Richard Clayton wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > >>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Eric S. Johansson wrote: >> >> >>> But using your spam size, , the slowdown factor becomes roughly >>>73 times. So they would need 73 machines running full tilt all the time >>>to regain their old throughput. >> >>Believe me, the professionals have enough 0wned machines that this is >>trivial. >> >>On the flipside, it means the machines are "burned" faster. > > > only if the professionals are dumb enough to use the machines that are > "making" the stamps to actually send the email (since it is only the > latter which are, in practice, traceable) actually, we mean burned literally. the stamp creation process raises the temperature of the CPU. Most systems are not build for full tilt computational load. They do not have the ventilation necessary for reliable operation. So, they may get by with the first 8-12 hours of stamp generation (i.e. roughly 2000-3000 stamps per machine) but the machine reliability after that time will degrade as the heat builds up. Feel free to run this experiment yourself. Take a cheat machine from your local chop shop, run hashcash in an infinite loop, and wait for the smoke detector to go off. there is nothing quite like waking up to the smell of freshly roasted Intel. > the easynet.nl list (recently demised) listed nearly 700K machines that > had been detected (allegedly) sending spam... so since their detection > was not universal it would certainly be more than 700K :( that is a nasty bit of news. I'll run some numbers based on that and see what the ratio of spam to stamp engines would be. gut sense is that it's still not horrible, just not as advantageous. but you never know until you run the numbers. thanks for the information and the source. -- Speech recognition in use. Incorrect endings, words, and case is closer than it appears From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Jan 1 11:25:04 2004 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:25:04 -0800 Subject: [camram-spam] Re: Microsoft publicly announces Penny Black PoW postage project In-Reply-To: <3FF4561E.3040700@harvee.org> References: Message-ID: <3FF40390.5750.FED22EC@localhost> -- Alan Brown wrote: > > I just hope you're right > > about the CPUs burning up - it doesn't happen when machines > > are running OGR calculations, so I suspect that you just > > ran into a particularly badly built example. Eric S. Johansson > no, it was a stock Intel motherboard, CPU, CPU fan in a > standard (i.e. not cheap) case with reasonably sized power > supply (i.e. 300 watts). It has the standard number of fans. With modern CPUs one needs a great deal of care installing the heat sink to avoid overheating. A standard CPU fan is not equivalent to a competently built computer. A modern bios has the capability to switch the computer off if it detects overheating. Unfortunately this capability is often off by default, or is deliberately switched off by shoddy assemblers who do not care whether they have installed functional CPU cooling -- and they usually have not. I recently built a computer for my son. Went through two CPU cooling systems before I got satisfactory cooling with the third system Then after the a few months the rather small and fragile plastic motherboard clip that held the extremely massive cooling system against the CPU cracked, impairing cooling efficiency, and I had to take the system apart and McGyver a clip out of inductor wire. Since it has worked fine. Modern cpu cooling systems are so massive that we need metal to metal clips all the way through the mother board, but today's motherboards still come with these frail little crappy plastic clips suitable only for old style fans. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG jd8twQqu33IqobCtWRsiI82DmRPHLLGBFHtty1eK 44/TTa0hL/CvVpbKSadQPFrmPhdPmSiuxBQEal47m From msarela at cc.hut.fi Thu Jan 1 01:32:25 2004 From: msarela at cc.hut.fi (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mikko_S=E4rel=E4?=) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:32:25 +0200 (EET) Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <200401010814.i018EAVs009659@artifact.psychedelic.net> References: <200401010814.i018EAVs009659@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Eric Cordian wrote: > In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It > also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug > concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. Sure, those are still needed. Though I wouldn't be so sure that toilet and floor scrubbers will be needed anymore 20 years from now. > Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a part of their political > doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be wealthy and successful, > so they can't openly have a class system. Of course, they still need > one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, and the usual method of > doing this is to hide the class system in the education system. Now you > don't get the shit-hauling job because you are an untouchable. You get > it because you "didn't do well" in school, or you "dropped out, and > "you could have been successful if you had just tried harder." This is just bull shit. You don't have to do well in school to do well in the job market. You just need to have the right kind of skills to do well in the job market; and if the companies not hiring you are stupid and only looking at your (school) credentials and not what you know, you can always put up your own company and succeed that way. Truly that mentality of school worship, which you talk about, makes me sick. It's a myth that you need to do well in school in order to make it out there. > Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be > shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each > other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society > can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the > expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat > race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. Oh, but it is not a zero sum game. Of course the bottom X% will always be shit-haulers, sure. But here's the catch. If the bottom X% are people who could do some complicated work that would earn them $100 000 a year, then the shit haulers will have to be paid more than that amount a year. Or no one will apply for those shitty jobs. The basics of economics: If there's a shortage of something, markets tend to rise up the value until the demand and supply meet. Exactly same does go for unregulated job market. > The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the > biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions > not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and > a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. Hell yeah. Public school system should be abolished right now. Hmm, I'm not quite as fanatical on these things as Tim is (who probably would want to shoot all those teachers and administrators), but I do find public schools to be something quite horrible. > Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to > locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. No, no, no. Public schools don't educate. Their purpose is to teach obedience and understanding that a single person cannot do without the government. Thus the nooks in Washington can get to keep their power. > Now in a world where most jobs are not skilled people individually > producing something in demand, but are the very lowest form of > commoditized labor, the opportunity to screw such dissenters probably > exceeds their ability to avoid being sent made to the back of the line. You really think there is this big conspiracy that covers all the companies working in the US, which keeps these black lists and exists just to screw those who don't like the system? How about just saying that if one is lazy and does not do his work well, he might be screwed - and that is frankly a problem of his own making. You take up on a contract, you keep it. > Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute > their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally > ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of > other peoples tax money. Nonetheless, I think we do such people a great disservice if we do not show that their culture has a very bad bias against learning and understanding. Such a bias, if it exists, should not be hidden, or shunted upon; it should be brought to broad day light and shown in all its stupidity. -- Mikko Sdreld Emperor Bonaparte: "Where does God fit into your system?" Pihrre Simon Laplace: "Sire, I have no need for that hypothesis." From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Thu Jan 1 08:51:32 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 11:51:32 -0500 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: Well I be darned if Mr May hasn't inspired a major burst of eloquence, between this response and Mr Young's. As for this comment: "Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory." At best. In the inner cities the function of schools is strongly hinted at by the following well-used phrase: "Stay In School!" In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we white folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private school. As for, >Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute >their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally >ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of >other peoples tax money. I basically agree with this, though no doubt there are "Leaders" that play on this (and the latent laziness of all teeneagers) to a tune similar to what May is saying. But in most cases, even "good" schools are a joke, and black folks at least realize this. Did anyone notice that there's only 1 or 2 states in the nation that still require Regents endorsements? I'll tell you a story. Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford Stuyvesant. 90% of my students were black. I regarded few of them as stupid, but almost none of them saw the point of studying math...they just didn't see how it could benefit them, and they said this to me on a regular basis. In one class I had some relatively young and non-troublemaking students. I told them from the beginning that I would not slip the standards so they could pass...they HAD to do homework in order to pass, as that would be the only way they could practice enough for the tests. For the first couple of tests all of the non-immigrant black kids failed. But I hammered them and told them it was going to continue like this unless they did the homework and studied. I made it absolutely clear what I expected from them. By the end of the semester most of the kids were doing their homework, and passing the quizzes and tests, which I did not make easier in any way. I remember Willie Horne coming in before a test and "complaining" "Mr Durden, I STUDIED last night!". I reached out to feel his forehead and said "Willie? Are you feelin' alright?" Of course, he pulled back and stifled a smile, but he got a 90. -TD >From: Eric Cordian >To: cypherpunks at minder.net >Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:14:10 -0800 (PST) > >Tim May observes: > > > Meanwhile, the "black folk" kept listening to Rev. Jess Jackson and > > Rev. Al Sharpton tell them that they were owed reparations, that they > > were owed a series of "entitlements." No suprise that a large fraction > > of negro teens subscribe to the view that "reading be for whitey." In > > fact, negroes have invented a whole series of insult terms for those > > who study too much, for those who break out of the "field worker" > > status: Uncle Toms, Oreos, etc. > > > Imagine where the Asians would be if Asian kids who did well in science > > and math were taunted as race traitors? > > > "Math be for whitey. Reading be for whitey. We be owed repa-ations for > > diskiminashun!!" > >In the real world, a society can not consist 100% of chip designers. It >also requires cooks, toilet and floor scrubbers, and people who lug >concrete in wheelbarrows up stairs. > >This is no problem in a society with an explicit class system. You just >assign jobs to people based on their social class, with the untouchables >getting the shit-hauling and scrubbing jobs, and the more attractive jobs >going to their betters. Some countries, like the US and Japan, have as a >part of their political doctrine that everyone has the opportunity to be >wealthy and successful, so they can't openly have a class system. Of >course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, >and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the >education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are >an untouchable. You get it because you "didn't do well" in school, or >you "dropped out, and "you could have been successful if you had just >tried harder." > >Of course, it's a zero sum game. The bottom X% will always be >shit-haulers, and the school is just making the proles fight with each >other over who those shit-haulers will be. The fact is that the society >can't make everyone successful, and the success of the few is at the >expense of the failure of the many, determined by the uncompensated rat >race and endless toil on the wheel of public education. > >The US is an excellent example of this. The AFT and NEA together are the >biggest labor organization in the country. THe school system functions >not to educate, but as a tool of inculcation in collectivist thinking, and >a awarder of certificates which give one the right to work. > >Schools don't educate, but merely serve as a filter for employers to >locate those individuals who aren't going to make trouble at the factory. > >A well known experiment is to take some 10th graders, and divide them >randomly into two groups. Send one to college, and make the others finish >the remaining two years of high school. THere will be no statistically >significant difference in their college performance, thus demonstrating >that public schools do not teach, but merely act as filters through which >only the most talented and sociable can pass. > >Now, minorities in this country, including almost all Asians, and quite a >few blacks, have gotten with this program that "education is the way out >of poverty," and have successfully turned the vicious education-based >class system to their advantage, by trying to beat the dominant class at >their own game, with varying degrees of success. This has required them >to refrain from criticizing the system itself, because no one wins a >beauty contest by having a bad attitude. > >I think that mentality is changing, and when you hear comments like >"Reading be for whitey," what is being said is not that literacy and >calculus and physics and chemistry are bad, in and of themselves, but that >a system which rewards only "getting ahead by playing along" is not a >arena in which these people choose to compete. > >Learning by doing is always vastly superior to learning by listening to >someone else talk about doing. > >Now in a world where most jobs are not skilled people individually >producing something in demand, but are the very lowest form of >commoditized labor, the opportunity to screw such dissenters probably >exceeds their ability to avoid being sent made to the back of the line. > >Nonetheless, I think we do such people a disservice when we attribute >their dislike of the education business to some sort of culturally >ingrained sloth, and characterize them as looking to live on handouts of >other peoples tax money. > >-- >Eric Michael Cordian 0+ >O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division >"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" _________________________________________________________________ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger  learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize From alanb at digistar.com Thu Jan 1 08:54:40 2004 From: alanb at digistar.com (Alan Brown) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:54:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [camram-spam] Re: Microsoft publicly announces Penny Black PoW postage project In-Reply-To: <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Eric S. Johansson wrote: > > the easynet.nl list (recently demised) listed nearly 700K machines that > > had been detected (allegedly) sending spam... so since their detection > > was not universal it would certainly be more than 700K :( > > that is a nasty bit of news. I'll run some numbers based on that and > see what the ratio of spam to stamp engines would be. gut sense is that > it's still not horrible, just not as advantageous. but you never know > until you run the numbers. Intelligence from DSBL indicated that there were _at least_ 350k compromised machines in the USA Roadrunner network alone at one stage. They are currently tracking around 1.5 million compromised machines. The Swen and blaster worms install various spamware and backdoors. These have been estimated to have infected millions of machines worldwide and later versions removed characteristics which removed tellltale compromise signs when scanned - now they mostly "phone home", instead of listening for commands. The pool of infected machines is huge. I just hope you're right about the CPUs burning up - it doesn't happen when machines are running OGR calculations, so I suspect that you just ran into a particularly badly built example. AB From esj at harvee.org Thu Jan 1 09:17:18 2004 From: esj at harvee.org (Eric S. Johansson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 12:17:18 -0500 Subject: [camram-spam] Re: Microsoft publicly announces Penny Black PoW postage project In-Reply-To: References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> Message-ID: <3FF4561E.3040700@harvee.org> Alan Brown wrote: > They are currently tracking around 1.5 million compromised machines. *ouch*. on 24x7 both power and connectivity? > The Swen and blaster worms install various spamware and backdoors. These > have been estimated to have infected millions of machines worldwide and > later versions removed characteristics which removed tellltale > compromise signs when scanned - now they mostly "phone home", instead of > listening for commands. and nobody has noticed. That's mine bogglingly astounding. A friend of mine just bought an XP machine and insisted on grabbing updates herself over her modem. yes, she has soft firewalls and virus protection in place but I'm willing to bet she's one of the compromised now so I should probably investigate detection/removal tools. you do need to give Microsoft credit, after all, they are the world leader in zombie friendly software. I figured they probably have at least a three-year head start over Linux in this arena. > The pool of infected machines is huge. I just hope you're right about > the CPUs burning up - it doesn't happen when machines are running OGR > calculations, so I suspect that you just ran into a particularly badly > built example. no, it was a stock Intel motherboard, CPU, CPU fan in a standard (i.e. not cheap) case with reasonably sized power supply (i.e. 300 watts). It has the standard number of fans. I think this makes it even more imperative to develop the kit ability of dynamically increasing postage process based on what your peers say. what a way to start the new year. ;-) Alan, I do appreciate you carrying the message as it were. ---eric -- Speech recognition in use. Incorrect endings, words, and case is closer than it appears From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 13:04:22 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:04:22 -0800 Subject: Skeptical about claim that stamp creation burns out modern CPUs In-Reply-To: <20040101145650.A25645@positron.mit.edu> References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> <98B691D5-3C8A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <20040101145650.A25645@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <129EF3F7-3C9E-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 1, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Tim May wrote: >> Now I grant you that I haven't tested CPUs in this way in many years. >> But I am skeptical that recent CPUs are substantially different than >> past CPUs. I would like to see some actual reports of "burned >> literally" CPUs. > > I've never seen a "burned literally" CPU, but I have tracked the > demise of an AMD K6 (or K6-2, can't remember now) from hot carrier > effects. If all processors were made like that one, you would see a > lot more load-induced failures. Just so. A lot of games are close to being CPU-bound, plus the screensavers used as Mersenne prime finders and the like, and there are few reports of house fires caused by the CPU being smoked. When I did reliability stuff for Intel, CPUs failed, but mostly not in ways that had them catching on fire, as the stamp guy is suggesting is common for stamp generation. --Tim May #1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim (Gentiles) is like killing a wild animal." #2. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated." #3. Yebamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age." #4. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed." #5. Yebamoth 98a: "All gentile children are animals." #6. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean." #7. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts." From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Jan 1 14:05:14 2004 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:05:14 -0800 Subject: Skeptical about claim that stamp creation burns out modern CPUs In-Reply-To: <98B691D5-3C8A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> Message-ID: <3FF4291A.8545.107FC69A@localhost> -- On 1 Jan 2004 at 10:44, Tim May wrote: > Further, junction-to-case temperature in a ceramic package > has a time constant of tens of seconds, meaning, the case > temperature reaches something like 98% of its equilibrium > value (as wattage reaches, say, 60 watts, or whatever), in > tens of seconds. The time constant for the CPU+plus cooling system is a good deal longer, and in modern CPUs the large mass of the cooling system can result in quite long periods, for example a quarter of an hour, before CPU load results in heat related shut off. > We also used to run CPUs at 125 C ambient Today's CPUs will generally fail a bit above seventy centigrade. They frequently fail in ways that cause them to draw increased current, eventuallly incinerating the motherboard. To prevent this, always look for the bios option to shut down the motheroboard in the event of CPU overheating. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Uw0lUnQOu8bBc6kOrcDpYZKS0DjzIgrXM9AJSVh2 49rBlWsHg9Teys0ELS5pT26g56P8tEMtp/mQ3eihl From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 14:28:15 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:28:15 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2004, at 12:50 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: > > > Tim May wrote... > >> First, please stop including the full text of the message you are >> replying to. Learn to use an editor, whether you ultimately top-post >> or bottom-post to edited fragments. > > I actually do this for a reason. If I'm not doing a line-by-line > response (or sometimes even if I am), I want the original post from > which I am excerpting to be visible, so that it can be referred to and > determined I am not taking this particular quote out of context. The world has had well over ten years to adjust to using editors to supply sufficient context. > However, the fact is that the school system sucks. It's a joke. Repeat > offenders get bounced from school to school, wrecking classes and the > environment everywhere they go. As "demanded" by the negroes and their Jew "speaker-to-negroes" handlers. (A high school teacher of mine pointed out that when someone "demands" something, reach for your gun. She left teaching not long after.) > Teachers in most states have 25 classroom hours a week, a number > matched nowhere in the world (as far as I've ever heard), and THAT'S > in addition to homeroom and other duties. The cirriculum is a silly > joke, watered down and watered down so that only someone who never > shows up couldn't graduate. (And in black schools you'd be suprised > how many times I've heard 'these kids can't learn...don't try'.) Because the Jews and negroes have demanded that all students be taught stuff they obviously will never use. Most innerr city mutants should be taught practical skills, not abstract stuff their previous education has been bereft of. > So your whole "burnoff of the eaters" theme misses one critical > element: direct contact with kids. If you yourself had seen and met > kids you KNEW might actually have quite a talent for math, YES EVEN > YOU might be tempted to give a crap, and see if just one or two might > somehow be inspiried merely to do some homework. This is particularly > true when you realize that you actually LIKE some of these kids, which > are as fully human as you are, by the way. I don't give a shit whether they're "fully human" or not. I only care that they stop stealing from me, that liberal Jews stop saying that my taxes have to be increased to support these "fully human" bags of shit. >> The parallel I like is one we developed (in Ted Kaehler's >> nanotechnology study group in the early 90s) for looking at what a >> society and economy might look like where the costs of material >> production are as close to zero as one might imagine. That is, a >> society with full-blown general assemblers, i.e., von Neumann >> replicators at the molecular, mechano-synthesis, Drexler-type scale. >> How would goods be produced and sold? How would markets exist/ > > I don't remember reading any von Neumann where he discusses the idea > of "general assemblers"....I'm still not convinced the general physics > of that idea works out, and I believe Freeman Dyson has had some > similar doubts. But despite that there's a point here... Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. Von Neumann spend part of several years investigating self-replicating machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. Well-covered in the cellular automata literature. In science fiction, one will find the general assembler literally referred to as the von Neumann probe. Cf. 35-year old fiction by Saberhagen on "Berserkers," or slightly more recent fiction by Roger Macbride Allen and others, for example. Von Neumann machines are more than just non-functional bottleneck machines. As for nanotech, I wasn't endorsing it, just noting the context. My skepticism is noted in Crandall's book on nanotech. > >> * The society we are heading towards is one of an increasingly sharp >> division between the "skilled and in demand" end of the spectrum and >> the bulk of droids who have few skills in demand. > > > I've also witnessed this trend, but I currently believe it only holds > in certain segments. There are various "craft" industries (as I call > them) where this equation seems to be held in suspension. Like it or > not, hip hop is one of those, though I suppose you could argue that > the number of hip-hop 'artists' that make it is tiny compared to the > audience. But the point is that in a craft industry, we're really > referring to specific and local tastes, as opposed to Darwinian > selection (ie, the 'most fit'). In a craft there may be room for many > to contribute. (Other examples of craft industries are US high-end > audio, the wine industry, high-end marijuana, organic foods and > cheeses, and the current German-centered board game renassaiance.) > What's desired in such an envornment is not necessarily the > best/fastest/brightest, but something with a particularly 'quality' > that corresponds to local vagaries of culture and taste. (At least, > there's no other way to explain the success of "Snoop Doggy Dog"...) Snoop is razzlekamazzled by the negroes, who have the money they stole from gullible whites, which is reason enough for niggers, whiggers, and chiggers to all be jivin' like daze shit. >> The burnoff of useless eaters will be glorious. > > > Well, if they have access to general assemblers they'll be with us > forever. And such a burnoff won't be glorious, it'll be a fuckin' > shame. No, on both counts. The niggers and whiggers _WON"T_ be with us forever, due to GAs, and that _WON"T_ be shame. Those who steal need killing. Killing the guilty is about to get a lot more efficient. Billions in the world need killing, and tens of millions in the U.S. are part of this. I use to say, "regrettably, most negroes fall into this category." Now, I just laugh at their animalistic stupidity. They are like children....stupid children. --Tim May "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" --Unknown Usenet Poster From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 14:52:12 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:52:12 -0800 Subject: Skeptical about claim that stamp creation burns out modern CPUs In-Reply-To: <3FF4A0B7.3050304@harvee.org> References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> <98B691D5-3C8A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <3FF4A0B7.3050304@harvee.org> Message-ID: <237E459C-3CAD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 1, 2004, at 2:35 PM, Eric S. Johansson wrote: > Tim May wrote: > >> I'm skeptical of this claim. A lot of Intel and AMD and similar >> machines are running full-tilt, "24/7." To wit, Beowulf-type >> clusters, the Macintosh G5 cluster that is now rated third fasted in >> the world, and so on. None of these machines is reported to be >> burning up literally. Likewise, a lot of home and corporate users are >> running background tasks which are at 100% CPU utilization. > > I will admit to a degree of skepticism myself even though I am > describing overheating as a likely outcome. But what is your actual evidence, as opposed to your belief that overheating is a likely outcome? I have said that I know of many machines (tens of thousands of CPUs, and probably many more I don't know about directly) which are running CPU-bound applications 24/7. I have heard of no "burning up literally" cases with the many Beowulf clusters, supercomputers, and 24/7 home or business screensavers and crunching apps, so I suspect they are not common. If you have actual evidence, as opposed to "likely outcome" speculations, please present the evidence. > > First, if you lose a fan on an Intel CPU of at least Pentium III > generation or an AMD equivalent, you will lose your CPU to thermal > overload. This is a well-known and well-documented problem. One > question is can stamp work thermally overload and damage a CPU. > Second question is how much stamp work can you do without thermally > overloading the CPU. This is true whether one is running Office or a stamp program. You are just repeating a general point about losing a fan, not about stamp generation per se. Boxer fan lifetimes are usually about comparable to hard drive lifetimes, which also kill a particular machine. You are not presenting anything new here, and the association with stamp generation is nonexistent. > > Large clusters have more careful thermal engineering applied to them > than probably most of the zombies out there. I have seen one Beowulf > cluster constructed out of standard 1U chassis, motherboards, fans > etc. and frequently 10 percent of the systems are down at any one > time. The vast majority of the failures have been due to thermal > problems. Most clusters use exactly the same air-cooled machines as are available from Dell, Sun, Apple, etc. In fact, the blades and rackmount systems are precisely those available from Dell, Sun, Apple, etc. You are presenting no evidence, just hypothesizing that your stamp protocol somehow burns out more CPUs than render farms do, than Mersenne prime apps to, than financial simulations do, etc. Yet you present no actual numbers. > > so, will we see a Pentium IV spontaneously ignite like a third tier > heavy-metal group in a Rhode Island nightclub? No, you're right, we > won't. I think it's safe to say we will see increasing unreliability, > power supply failures, and failures of microelectronics due to > increased thermal load. Which is good enough for my purposes. Evidence is desirable, belief is just belief. --Tim May "That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau From rsw at jfet.org Thu Jan 1 11:56:51 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:56:51 -0500 Subject: Skeptical about claim that stamp creation burns out modern CPUs In-Reply-To: <98B691D5-3C8A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net>; from timcmay@got.net on Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 10:44:57AM -0800 References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> <3FF44745.4020108@harvee.org> <98B691D5-3C8A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <20040101145650.A25645@positron.mit.edu> Tim May wrote: > Now I grant you that I haven't tested CPUs in this way in many years. > But I am skeptical that recent CPUs are substantially different than > past CPUs. I would like to see some actual reports of "burned > literally" CPUs. I've never seen a "burned literally" CPU, but I have tracked the demise of an AMD K6 (or K6-2, can't remember now) from hot carrier effects. If all processors were made like that one, you would see a lot more load-induced failures. -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Thu Jan 1 12:50:59 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 15:50:59 -0500 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: Tim May wrote... >First, please stop including the full text of the message you are replying >to. Learn to use an editor, whether you ultimately top-post or bottom-post >to edited fragments. I actually do this for a reason. If I'm not doing a line-by-line response (or sometimes even if I am), I want the original post from which I am excerpting to be visible, so that it can be referred to and determined I am not taking this particular quote out of context. > >So if a kid in high school can't see the "benefit" of studying math, he >shouldn't be. It's as simple as that. Well, part of me doesn't entirely disagree. At least, high school teachers should be teaching and not babysitting. I actually consider it hard enough to develop true competence in math or science (enough to teach on the HS level), and then even harder developing the skills necessary to communicate the ideas effectively. A math or physics teacher can't be an effective babysitter, pal, AND guidance counselor. Or at least, not in the kinds of quantities liberals imagine the schools should be filled with. On the other hand, given the current state of world education in math and science, by 9th grade it's not necessarily too late for a kid to turn into a good mathematician (actually, I myself am an example: in 9th grade I was in a lame but famous private school pulling down low Bs and high Cs in math because I was bored. By 12th grade I was in what was and is regarded as THE top-notch school for math and science in the country, pulling down 100 in calculus...but don't get me wrong, I still know the difference between me and true genius in mathematics). However, the fact is that the school system sucks. It's a joke. Repeat offenders get bounced from school to school, wrecking classes and the environment everywhere they go. Teachers in most states have 25 classroom hours a week, a number matched nowhere in the world (as far as I've ever heard), and THAT'S in addition to homeroom and other duties. The cirriculum is a silly joke, watered down and watered down so that only someone who never shows up couldn't graduate. (And in black schools you'd be suprised how many times I've heard 'these kids can't learn...don't try'.) So your whole "burnoff of the eaters" theme misses one critical element: direct contact with kids. If you yourself had seen and met kids you KNEW might actually have quite a talent for math, YES EVEN YOU might be tempted to give a crap, and see if just one or two might somehow be inspiried merely to do some homework. This is particularly true when you realize that you actually LIKE some of these kids, which are as fully human as you are, by the way. Or, it might just make you even angrier...give your rage some real, practical real-world "fuel" rather than being the theoretical cloistered construct it at least appears to be. At least, 'talent' doesn't seem to be the problem. Inner-city black kids have proven that they can do extremely well in whatever they view as important (I'd argue that some of this is due to genetic superiority)...a well-run school system could easily produce the kind of math and engineering talent needed without brain-draining from other countries (and which is probably not a relaible long-term option). > >The parallel I like is one we developed (in Ted Kaehler's nanotechnology >study group in the early 90s) for looking at what a society and economy >might look like where the costs of material production are as close to zero >as one might imagine. That is, a society with full-blown general >assemblers, i.e., von Neumann replicators at the molecular, >mechano-synthesis, Drexler-type scale. How would goods be produced and >sold? How would markets exist/ I don't remember reading any von Neumann where he discusses the idea of "general assemblers"....I'm still not convinced the general physics of that idea works out, and I believe Freeman Dyson has had some similar doubts. But despite that there's a point here... >* Namely, Hollywood. Film stock is essentially free...bits even more so. >Cameras remain expensive, but are vastly less so than they were a decade >ago. Basically, everything material in Hollywood is nearly free. What is >expensive is the creative talent, the know-how, the ensembles of actors and >directors and writers and all. Hell, you don't have to go that far. Food is already cheap enough that we might regard it as being nearly free. I mean, for a couple of bucks you can buy enough beef to stuff a welfare family of five, and to feed a rural Chinese family for a friggin' week. (Well, at least in the US...) People from mainland China would still regard most welfare families as "rich" by Chinese standards. >* The society we are heading towards is one of an increasingly sharp >division between the "skilled and in demand" end of the spectrum and the >bulk of droids who have few skills in demand. I've also witnessed this trend, but I currently believe it only holds in certain segments. There are various "craft" industries (as I call them) where this equation seems to be held in suspension. Like it or not, hip hop is one of those, though I suppose you could argue that the number of hip-hop 'artists' that make it is tiny compared to the audience. But the point is that in a craft industry, we're really referring to specific and local tastes, as opposed to Darwinian selection (ie, the 'most fit'). In a craft there may be room for many to contribute. (Other examples of craft industries are US high-end audio, the wine industry, high-end marijuana, organic foods and cheeses, and the current German-centered board game renassaiance.) What's desired in such an envornment is not necessarily the best/fastest/brightest, but something with a particularly 'quality' that corresponds to local vagaries of culture and taste. (At least, there's no other way to explain the success of "Snoop Doggy Dog"...) > >(I argued this, circa 1991-2, to a bunch of people who basically bought the >line that technology would bring wealth to the masses, blah blah. I argued >that yes, the masses would have great material goods, just as the masses >today have color tvs in their cribs. But the big money would elude them. >Libertarian rhetoric about everybody being wealthy is only meaningful in >the sense that even the poorest today are wealthy by Roman or Middle Ages >or even Renaissance standards. But the split between those with talents in >demand--the Peter Jacksons, the Stephen Kings, the Tim Berners-Lees, etc. >and the "reading be for whitey" and "I don't see any benefit to studying >math" vast bulk will widen.) > >Much more could be said on this. I recall I wrote some long articles along >these lines in the early years of the list. This is certainly possible. On the other hand, depending on how technology unfolds we might all of a sudden find ourselves caught short and looking for talent. And certainly, the have-nots will actually have more and more as time goes on, though perhaps not much land or space. >In conclusion, your Bedford-Stuy student who doesn't see the point to >studying math will never be a math researcher, or a physicist, or a >chemist, or anything else of that sort. So no point in trying to convince >him to study his math. > >It's like convincing a kid to start writing so he'll stand a chance of >being the next Stephen King: if he needs convincing, he won't be. > >The burnoff of useless eaters will be glorious. Well, if they have access to general assemblers they'll be with us forever. And such a burnoff won't be glorious, it'll be a fuckin' shame. -TD _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 18:42:09 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:42:09 -0800 Subject: Sources and Sinks Message-ID: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> The jabber about how poor people are actually paying for the successful is beyond belief. All sorts of arguments are being made about how poor people somehow pay for the infrastructure the wealthy exploit. And the chestnut about how tax breaks aid the wealth disproportionately is once again brought out. (Yeah, if Alice was paying $50K in taxes and the taxes are cut to $40K she "benefits more" than Bob the Wino who got no tax benefits because he paid no taxes. Which misses the point about Alice's high taxes in the first place.) This is why the "Tax Freedom Day" approach is more useful. Tax freedom day is of course the day when the average American or Brit or whatever has stopped working for the government and has the rest of his income for himself. For most years, this is estimated to around May-June. That is, for almost half of a year a typical taxpayer is working for the government. Not a perfect measure, as it averages together folks of various tax brackets, including the many in America who pay nothing (but it doesn't assign a negative number to those who receive "net net" money from the government). And it fails to take into account the double taxation which a business owner faces: roughly a 50% tax on his profits, then when the profits are disbursed to the owners of the corporation, another 35-45% tax bite. For a business owner, he is effectively working for the government for the first 70% of every year. Which means only October-December is he working for his own interests. Jabber about how poor people are actually receiving fewer tax benefits than rich people misses the point of who's working for whom. Alice, an engineer or pharmacist or perhaps a small business owner, works between 40% and 70% of her time to pay money into government. Bob, a crack addict collecting "disability" or welfare or other government freebies, works 0% of his time for the government/society. ("Dat not true. I gots to stands in line to get my check increased!") Alice is a source, Bob is a sink. Talk about how Alice gets benefits ignores the fact that she's working for the government for a big chunk of her life. Bob is not. Alice is a slave for the government, and "society," so that Bob can lounge in his mobile home watching ESPN and collecting a monthly check. (I'd like to know why all of the folks here in California who are getting "benefits" and "services" are not at my door on Saturday morning to help me with my yard work. I'd like to know why finding reliable yard workers has become nearly impossible in the past couple of decades. "Will work for food" signs are a fucking joke...try hiring one of those layabouts to actually do some work for food and watch the sneers, or watch them threatening to fake a work injury if a shakedown fee is not given to them. These people should be put in lime pits.) When you hear John Young and Tyler Durden nattering about the "persons of privilege" are reaping the rewards of a benificent government, think about Alice and Bob and ask yourself who'se doing the real work. Ask who're the sources and who're the sinks. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need...and I've got a game to watch on satellite...and where's my check?" --Tim May "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." --John Stuart Mill From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 19:09:27 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:09:27 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <131475D4-3CD1-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> I'll comment on the sociology after commenting on the physics: (actually, looking over your sociology, I see it's just more of the liberal whine and sleaze, so I won't bother commenting on it again) On Jan 1, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: > Tim May wrote... > >> Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. >> Von Neumann spend part of several years investigating >> self-replicating machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. >> Well-covered in the cellular automata literature. > > As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary > sources. (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious > usefulness to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more > famous von Neumann journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular > automata...I actually thought he had only written two or three, and I > don't remember his ideas of self-replicating machines as including > something like a GA, but then again it's easily possible I didn't pick > up on the ramifications of what I was reading (which is granted when I > was much younger). The last refuge of the scoundrel is to dismiss stuff as "secondary and tertiary sources," sort of like the fakers I used to meet in college who nattered on about having learned their physics from Newton's "Principia" instead of from secondary and tertiary sources. I encountered von Neumann's work on self-replicating machines when I was in high school (*). It came up in connection with the Fermi paradox and in issues of life (this was before the term "artificial life" was au courant...I was at the first A-LIFE Conference in '87...von Neumann couldn't make it). (* And no, I don't know mean my high school teachers taught us about von Neumann machines. 97% of the science I knew by the time I graduated from high school I'd learned on my own, from the usual "secondary and tertiary sources.") A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators and general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general assembler, hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact this is necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as otherwise it takes all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the world, if they could make nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom of a test tube. GAs only start to become possible after the replication problem has been solved (which it has not, despite claims about self-reproducing software structures and train sets and the like). If you are not aware of basic developments, recall Wittgenstein's maxim: "Whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent." > --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 20:08:46 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:08:46 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <0401020436200.0@somehost.domainz.com> References: <131475D4-3CD1-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <0401020436200.0@somehost.domainz.com> Message-ID: <5CBC4678-3CD9-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 1, 2004, at 7:44 PM, Thomas Shaddack wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tim May wrote: > >> A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators >> and general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general >> assembler, hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact >> this is necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as >> otherwise it takes all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the >> world, >> if they could make nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom >> of >> a test tube. > > Or a few-dollar fermentation tanks with suitable bacteria, once its > genome > is tweaked in required way. Who ever said that the nanoparticles we > need > can't be proteins or organic molecules with required shape/properties? > If > viral particles can self-assemble from host-cell-synthetized proteins, > if > complicated structures like bacterial propulsion systems - or even > whole > plants - can be formed, why not nanomechanical systems? Why bother with > assembling machines when they could be grown? > > I hope I didn't screw up my understanding of "nanosynthesis". If it is > "build anything you want by telling the general assembler", then this > won't work and would need a lab; but for mass-producing nnoparticles, > eg. > surface coatings or elements for camera or memory arrays, biotech > should > be good enough. > Which is why I was careful to say "mechanosynthesis" and even to qualify the type of replicator as "Drexler-style." We've had systems which can replicate in 25 minutes or so for as long as we've existed. But making bread is not the same thing as making computers, or Boeing 747s, or non-bread kinds of food. Specialized biologicals making specialized things is probably where "nanotechnology" will be a commercial success, but it just ain't real nanotech. --Tim May From measl at mfn.org Thu Jan 1 19:28:58 2004 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:28:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040101212618.O34252@mx1.mfn.org> On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tyler Durden wrote: > As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary > sources. I have a very hard time believeing that anyone would consider VN a "secondary" or "tertiary" source. > (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious usefulness > to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more famous von Neumann > journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular automata...I actually > thought he had only written two or three, That's only because he's hard reading :-) -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Thu Jan 1 18:34:51 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:34:51 -0500 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: Tim May wrote... "Because the Jews and negroes have demanded that all students be taught stuff they obviously will never use. Most inner city mutants should be taught practical skills, not abstract stuff their previous education has been bereft of." Well, I don't know who's responsible, but teaching what basically amounts to a liberal arts cirriculum is almost certainly useless in the inner cities, and black kids know this...they want something they can USE. Things like authomotive repair or, perhaps, airline baggage screening probably makes a lot more sense. "I don't give a shit whether they're "fully human" or not. I only care that they stop stealing from me, that liberal Jews stop saying that my taxes have to be increased to support these "fully human" bags of shit." Well, this is where you lose a lot of credibility on this list, despite your sometimes farily acute technical observations. Let's just say that your 'philosophy' has concluded that it's probably better for the "useless eaters" be burned off, and that this would be good for the planet (the scary thing is that it's becomming obvious that in the near future neither the planet nor human society will really need 6 billion or more people). So this is your "philosophy"...fine. But you seem to have little or no emotion or sympathy towards those 'lumpen proletariat' (cue commentary on term by James Donald)...in other words, these are people who love/hate/fear/lust/eat just like you, and who don't regard themselves as 'useless', and yet it would seem that history just might pass them by, and that there may be a large segment of human population that will (in the short run) be marginalized, and in the long run be wiped out (according to your philosophies), apparently in some terrible and painful cataclysm. That your philosophies seemed to have erased any interhuman emotion you may have in this context seems strange. And no, I'm not suggesting that you cry your way out of your ideas, but recognize that if your ideas are correct, they're tragic. That which is 'inevitable' and also cataclysmic and (arguably) avoidable may also easily be tragic. Hell...that's probably the very definition of tragic, and in the most pessimistic of appraisals (ie, yours) the fate of American black folks (with many, possibly millions of exceptions) might easily be tragic, and that's a shame, like all human suffering. >Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. Von >Neumann spend part of several years investigating self-replicating >machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. Well-covered in the cellular >automata literature. As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary sources. (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious usefulness to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more famous von Neumann journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular automata...I actually thought he had only written two or three, and I don't remember his ideas of self-replicating machines as including something like a GA, but then again it's easily possible I didn't pick up on the ramifications of what I was reading (which is granted when I was much younger). >Snoop is razzlekamazzled by the negroes, who have the money they stole from >gullible whites, which is reason enough for niggers, whiggers, and chiggers >to all be jivin' like daze shit. Well, perhaps he's just wise to his market. >Those who steal need killing. Killing the guilty is about to get a lot more >efficient. Billions in the world need killing, and tens of millions in the >U.S. are part of this. If true, this is tragic. You might argue that it's necessary, "good" and inevitable, but it's still tragic. Some of these people will be living lives of very high quality, despite their "need for killing". If you got out more, you might know that. -TD _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 21:46:43 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:46:43 -0800 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <20040102042608.GA5461@dreams.soze.net> References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <20040102042608.GA5461@dreams.soze.net> Message-ID: <0BBB81D8-3CE7-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:26 PM, Justin wrote: > Tim May (2004-01-02 02:42Z) wrote: > >> Bob, a crack addict collecting "disability" or welfare or other >> government freebies, works 0% of his time for the government/society. >> ("Dat not true. I gots to stands in line to get my check increased!") > > Do those who have previously been in the workforce, in your opinion, > have the right to reclaim through welfare any amount up to that they've > paid through taxes to the entity providing welfare/unemployment? Or is > all unemployment money Pluto's fruit? > No, as there is no "fund" that this money is in. Once taxes are paid in, the money has gone out to crack addicts, Halliburton, welfare whores (excuse me, "hoes"), foreign dictators like Mubarek and Sharon, and so on. In fact, the estimated overall debt is something like $30-40 trillion. I've outlined how this number is arrived at a few times in the past. As there are about 100 million tax filers in the U.S.--the other 175 million being children, spouses, prisoners, welfare recipients, illegal aliens, non-filers, etc.--a simple calculation shows the average indebtedness per tax filer is around $300,000 or more. This is far, far beyond what the average household owns in total. Because the U.S. has been "charging it" for the past 40 years. Quibblers will say we can reduce this indebtedness by selling off government-owned lands, which would be a good start. Or be taxing corporations more, but this still ends up with the individual tax filers, ultimately. Or by devaluing the dollar dramatically, which is the likeliest strategy the kleptocrats will follow, after gettting enough advance warning to get their own assets out of dollar-denominated vehicles. So, you see, there IS NO FUND one can withdraw money from. Anyone claiming new welfare benefits requires even more thefts from those still working. Just because money was stolen from you doesn't give you any right to steal from me. --Tim May From measl at mfn.org Thu Jan 1 20:20:16 2004 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:20:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040101221313.L34252@mx1.mfn.org> > Tim May wrote... > >In conclusion, your Bedford-Stuy student who doesn't see the point to > >studying math will never be a math researcher, or a physicist, or a > >chemist, or anything else of that sort. So no point in trying to convince > >him to study his math. Why the BedSty student Tim? This is where your arguments - which on shallow inspection may attempt to lay claim to honest thought - fall down. Why only the inner city black schools? I grew up in New York. I am intimately familiar with BedSty, Red Hook, etc. But I am also familiar with at least two schools in white ghettos (PS87/HS44), and I'm here to tell you from very personal experience, that there is no significant difference. You have some incredible moments of lucidity and insight, and occasionally, we are the lucky recipients of these fleeting events - but then, just as sure as the sun coming over the horizon every morning of every day, you slip back into the pseudo-intellectual racist crap. What's wit dat? Even the Great Tim May cannot be taken seriously with the kind of non-thought that has been coming out of your hermithole the last few years. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm From timcmay at got.net Thu Jan 1 22:37:12 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:37:12 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <20040101221313.L34252@mx1.mfn.org> References: <20040101221313.L34252@mx1.mfn.org> Message-ID: <18FE3722-3CEE-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:20 PM, J.A. Terranson wrote: >> Tim May wrote... > >>> In conclusion, your Bedford-Stuy student who doesn't see the point to >>> studying math will never be a math researcher, or a physicist, or a >>> chemist, or anything else of that sort. So no point in trying to >>> convince >>> him to study his math. > > Why the BedSty student Tim? > > Perhaps because I was replying to "Tyler Durden," where he wrote: "I'll tell you a story. Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford Stuyvesant. 90% of my students were black." You liberals see "racism" even when people reply to the points raised by others. --Tim May From mv at cdc.gov Thu Jan 1 23:05:52 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 23:05:52 -0800 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism Message-ID: <3FF51850.19293A84@cdc.gov> At 08:45 PM 12/31/03 -0500, John Kelsey wrote: > >You do know she's been trying the same scheme for several hundred thousand >years, right? As an artist, I think she's in a creative decline. Ebola is >picturesque and flashy, but not all that scary unless your funeral rites >involve lots of contact with the blood of your dearly departed. I think E. is a bit more contagious than you recognize. It just hasn't had the chance to play in dense pops. AIDS is >more subtle, rather like syphlus before good antibiotics, but it's not her >best work. Yeah but the meatbots do love to spread it, and here you again fail to recognize Her subtlety. Even SARS is Yet Another Coughed Contagion. If I recall >correctly, smallpox got 90% of the American Indians who were exposed, and >measles killed something like 1/3 of Roman citizens. Smallpox would reduce real estate prices by 1/3 at least, possibly more in cities. An interesting question is what decline (and what rate of decline) west.civ. can tolerate these days. Still, looking at the Roman Empire (aka paleo-cons) disease isn't necessary, though it sure helps. Famine and war are pretty good cards in Her Hands too. Guns, germs, and steel, baby. From mv at cdc.gov Thu Jan 1 23:09:26 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 23:09:26 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: <3FF51926.F3B17C7F@cdc.gov> At 12:14 AM 1/1/04 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: >Of >course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, >and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the >education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are >an untouchable. You get it because you "didn't do well" in school, or >you "dropped out, and "you could have been successful if you had just >tried harder." Seems that someone has a problem grasping natural variation. Perhaps you would prefer that the majority starve, or live in pre-agricultural poverty, rather than accept a comfy (if low-status) niche made possible by large foreheads. Tsk tsk. From mv at cdc.gov Thu Jan 1 23:17:46 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 23:17:46 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: <3FF51B1A.AC0EF0AF@cdc.gov> At 11:51 AM 1/1/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >"Stay In School!" > >In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known >statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we white >folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private >school. Right. And the value of an uneducated result of an unaborted fuck 18 years ago is so useful that schooling is unnecessary, just part of the Man (tm) keeping the People (tm) down. Ayup. Plenty of grubs to be dug if that's what you prefer. The rest of us prefer personal capitalism, ie investment, ie education. There's a reason the Jews and Asians (etc) suceed and other --often more fluent-- cultures don't, and it has to do with the value some cultures put on education. The truth will set you free, or not. Your choice. From timcmay at got.net Fri Jan 2 00:03:39 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:03:39 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <20040102010610.A30062@positron.mit.edu> References: <20040101221313.L34252@mx1.mfn.org> <20040102010610.A30062@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2C4F878E-3CFA-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 1, 2004, at 10:06 PM, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > "J.A. Terranson" wrote: >> Why the BedSty student Tim? > > Uhh, read more carefully. He was responding to a specific point from > Tyler Durden. > >> You have some incredible moments of lucidity and insight, and >> occasionally, >> we are the lucky recipients of these fleeting events - but then, just >> as sure >> as the sun coming over the horizon every morning of every day, you >> slip back >> into the pseudo-intellectual racist crap. What's wit dat? > > I don't think Tim is racist as such. He hates everyone equally. :-) > But seriously, calling it racism seems wrong-headed. Racism is "I > hate black people because they're black." Tim hates (some, most, > all?) black people because he percieves them as benefitting unfairly > from his hard work. I'm pretty sure, all other things being equal, he > wouldn't hate a black person who, through his own hard work and > without taking a penny from the government, turned himself into a > successful, tax-paying "source." Or, at least, I'm not convinced he > would hate such a person, which is to say I'm not convinced he's a > racist. I admire many negroes. Shelby Steele, who wrote "The Content of our Character," for example. And Thomas Sowell, an even more prolific author (and Stanford professor). And Niger Innes (son of the lefty Roy Innes...a lot of children of 60s liberal negroes are now libertarian or conservative, e.g., Adam Clayton Powell's son). And Clarence Thomas (who has argued forcefully that the Supremes ought to do a very thorough review of gun laws, with the hint that the right decision would be to restore the Second Amendment to first class status). And a bunch of others, including Ward Connerly, of California, who has been leading the effort to have "race" removed as the basis for _any_ government actions, including hiring quotas, special admissions requirements for negroes and Asians (at opposite ends of the test score spectrum), and so on. I don't admire the politics of Condie Rice and Colin Powell, but there is little doubt that they are accomplished, bright people. My problem is that negroes are 80% in solidarity on a bunch of disgusting, anti-liberty things: affirmative action, racial quotas, minority setasides (but not for successful minorities--they want limits on the number of Asians admitted to UC schools), welfare, increased benefits, etc. Further, they, as a whole, have a "plantation mentality": always demanding that Massa in the Big White House give them more stuff. Instead of excelling and grabbing the stuff for themselves, as Chinese and Korean and Indian people have done in America, they think setasides and quotas and special favoritism is "owed" to them. I used to not care much about what they did or thought. When I entered college in 1970 I expected to mix with a bunch of different sorts of people. What I found was that the negroes all sat at the same tables in the dining halls, that whites who sat near them were chased off, and that we non-blacks, including Asians, Indians, South Americans, whites, etc., could mix with each other, but not with the "Panthers." And they ghettoized themselves into "Black Studies," which they had "demanded" a couple of years earlier and had just gotten in 1969. In 1972 they formed various militant groups on campus. One obnoxious woman named Judy became the student association president. When she didn't like a decision, she ordered the Panthers, her enforcers, to bar the doors and not let anyone out until the decision was reversed. It was. I am not exaggerating. I included this, and the theft of ASU funds, and the henchmen, and similar leftist actions by others (including the MeCHA "Aztlanos"), in a letter to the Regents of the University of California. It was published in the school newspaper, in a full-paged spread, and I got replies from the governor of the state, Ronald Reagan. I met with the Chancellor and he agreed that the situation at the campus was deplorable, but that in the interests of keeping the peace with the negroes and Mexicans, given the time (1973), there was little they could do. He promised that his office was looking into the allegations and already knew about most of them. When I joined Intel in 1974, I saw plenty of Chinese, Indians, a handful of Koreans and Vietnamese (more later), but only one negro engineer. And he had a major chip on his shoulder. When he was let go in one of the RIFs, he claimed discrimination on the basis of his melanin levels. Meanwhile, the excuses mounted all around about how "science is sexist and gynophobic," about how the ancient Egyptians were actually black Africans and had their advanced civilization (electricity, flying cars, etc.) stolen by the "ice people" and similar such malarkey. The Reverend Jesse Jackson, a racist hustler, tried to shake down Silicon Valley corporations for payoffs to his Rainbow scam. (Meanwhile, negroes avoided science, math, engineering, technology and preferred to focus their efforts on lawsuits to get standards lowered, via "race norming." The bullshit went on and on.) I look at the 75% bastard rate (compared to about 25% for whites and about 5% for Asians in America), the black on white crime, the black on black crime, the crack hoes, the disrespect for learning....all this and I can draw only one conclusion" that though there are many fine, competent, bright negroes, on the whole it is a gutter race. Harsh phrase, but true. A race that, in America in the last 40 years, has become a race of beggars, whiners, wheedlers, chiselers, whores, crack addicts, dropouts, and unwed mothers. Charles Murray laid out a lot of the reasons in his book "Losing Ground." ("Dat be a racist book!," said his detractors.) The seminal event was the arrival on the scene of the collectivist JFK. Kennedy ordered his bunch of eastern elitists to look into the "relief" system which had provided very limited and very temporary economic assistance to folks in bad situations. For those few here old enough (I am, just barely), this used to be called "general relief," and it was mostly administered at the county level, in the states that offered it. What Kennedy's brain trust found was that "relief" was seen as an embarrassment, as a negative thing, something to avoid getting on if at all possible and to get off of just as fast as one could. Which is as it should be, of course. So Kennedy's liberals scratched their heads and came up with a new plan. "Relief" would be converted to a series of state and national programs, no longer handled locally. And the bad connotations of "relief" would be changed by the new and positive name "entitlement." Money handed out to various folks would be their "entitlement," something they were _owed_. Other related names would be "social services" and, of course, liberal mention of "children" and "nutrition." Ergo programs like WIC ("Women, Infants, and Children"). Ergo, "Head Start." Oh, and meddling in foreign countries with things like the Peace Corps (which, the feministas are slowly coming to realize, did much to break "primitives" of things like breast-feeding, while giving the baby formula industry a new world market). Kennedy got zapped for his many crimes, but the Good Ole Boy who took over turned out to be just as big a collectivist as Kennedy had been, and LBJ continued the Kennedy welfare/entitlements/handouts and called it "The Great Society." (I don't recall if Kennedy had formally named his progressive plan.) And that year was the year that negroes got to vote in all 50 states, which of course was a good thing. The part of the Civil Rights Act that dealt with voting rights was good. The Constitution applies to all people. However, most of the Civil Rights Act was terrible, for obvious reasons. Between it and new interpretations of the 14th Amendment (lawyers can quote the language), and some terrible Warren Court decisions (*), the effect was to interfere in the ability of people to choose who to do business with, who to rent to, who to associate with, all of the things which liberty means. (* The Supreme Court took a case where a negro had been denied service at a diner in the south and used a weird series of logical steps to argue that if negroes couldn't buy food at this diner then napkin and ketchup and hot dog sales might be affected, and since some of that stuff came from other states, that would be interfering in interstate trade and only Congress can regulate that, blah blah, and so racial discrimination was outlawed under the fucking Commerce Clause of the Constitution! Of course, by the same logic, if Apple decides to change suppliers of disk drives, and this means Illinois gets the business instead of Idaho, this has also changed interstate trade. But logic was not the point of what the Court was doing...they were looking for any excuse to stop "discrimination.") OK, what of discrimination itself? Good or bad? Most of us probably agree that telling a black person he cannot shop in some bookstore, told by the bookstore owner that is, is not cool, to use a technical phrase. We might call it tacky, or unethical, or just plain dumb. (And if the government tried to say blacks could not enter a bookstore, this would be both interfering with the property rights of the bookstore owner AND violating the colorblind standards of the Constitution.) But libertarians argue--and this was the natural system for 170 years--that what a property owner does with his property is, assuming he is not violating real rights (*) of others, up to him to decide, whether his decisions are uncool, stupid, unwise, etc. (* I mean real rights, as in property, personal safety, economic ownership, etc., not some "right to enter the stores I wish to enter." No more so than anyone has a "right" to be invited into someone's house, or into a club, etc.) So, during just a couple of years of the Great Society, this confluence of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the new interpretations of the 14th Amendment, and Supreme Court decisions, the ability of people and corporations to choose whom they wished to deal with, or hire, or fire, ended. "Racial discrimination" became the new word to demonize anyone or any group. When civil libertarians like Barry Goldwater said this restriction on liberty was a bad direction to move in, he was dubbed a "racist." I could write much more on this whole sorry episode. It's a sorry episode not because I have any desire to exclude negroes or women or cripples or queers or any other of the "protected groups" (added over the years), but because it erases the concept of liberty. If I can't rent to whom I choose, I have no control over my own belongings. If I can be told I must hire a certain percentage of negroes (later dubbed "tokens'), this not only interferes with freedom of association (which applies to groups and corporations, obviously) but it also has a corrosive effect on those hired and how those around them think about them. ("Token blacks" in departments of companies are often thought of as having been hired to get the EEOC stooges off the company's back.) I have the fundamental right, via ownership of my property and my freedom of association, to hire or fire based on merit, based on whim, based on astrology, whatever. It may not be wise, but it's my choice. I have the fundamental right to have only Muslims in my company, or only Jews working in my bookstore, or to have only buxom women working at my strip club. (Recall the "discrimination" suits filed over such policies, including males claiming they were discriminated against, women in wheelchairs or with mastectomies claiming they have a "right" to be hired by a strip club that doesn't want them, and so on.) The can of worms that was opened when liberty was cancelled is still with us, getting worse and worse. Feminista attorney sued a California gym for excluding women, and the courts ordered gyms to admit women....ah, but the same order did not ban women only gyms, and these are now common in California. A church which refused to hire a Satanist was ordered to do so. (This was later rescinded...apparently even the courts can't deal with the Alice in Wonderland-like situation where discrimination is banned.) This is what Shelby Steele, the black I referred to earlier, is saying in "The Content of our Character," that blacks should be judged on the content of their character, not the color of their skin. (He is quoting Martin Luther King, of course.) This does NOT mean that this maxim gets enforced by the government, and that discriminating on the basis of color should be illegal. He, and King (some think), is arguing that this is the "right" thing to do, but is not something government should be enforcing. Note of course that most businessmen will not turn away customers. Things in the deep south were skewed by the War of Northern Aggression, and it took time for sentiments to change. But in many cases the apartheid in the south was managed and enforced by local _governments_, with the public restrooms being "White" and "Colored." (As in South Africa, where companies like IBM wanted to hire blacks but were ordered not to by the RSA government.) Anyway, I resent deeply being told I may not associate as I wish, may not rent or sell my property as I wish, must meet certain hiring quotas or face EEOC fines, must promote based on race not character or skills, and so on. I resent deeply the whole can of worms that involves "discrimination against gays" and "handicapped-friendly" policies, and the whole enforced "niceness" bullshit (which is not actually making people nicer...just the opposite, as when I had to deal with a token we had in our department and was ordered to not do anything that might cause him to file a discrimination lawsuit against us). > I see the success the Chinese and Indians and other Asians have had in America...none of it do to quotas, to forced hiring, to the nonsense the negroes keep pulling. (I haven't talked much about Mexicans, by the way. Many Mexicans are perfectly fine...hard-working, friendly, etc. Often they are not very academically-oriented, so few are in engineering positions. And many are as bad as many of the negroes. Worse, the issue of "illegal aliens." As Tom McClintock pointed out so cogently in his debate with Schwarzenegger, et. al., the real issue is that these illegal aliens (perhaps as many as 10 million now) are CUTTING IN LINE, cutting in line ahead of those waiting patiently and legally to enter the U.S. from Russia, Romania, India, Thailand, etc. And we gave the Mexican and Latin American illegals an "amnesty" in the mid-90s: Simpson-Mozzoli, a promised one time only deal. Ah, but the cynics, including me, were right: more aliens swarmed in, looking for another amnesty. As a pure libertarian I would have no problem with truly open borders, provided there were absolutely no taxpayer-funded programs or services, and provided the piles of rotting corpses were not used as an excuse to give "services." But open immigration is not going to happen. Meanwhile, giving these illegal aliens permanent residency status would be a fucking disaster. As with the Simpson-Mazzoli illegals, once amnestied they have a strong tendency to sign up for all of the "entitlements" JFK and LBH and RMN established. Which is why my local town has a hospital that is facing insolvency, as the swarms of Mexicans use the services mandated by law and collection is nearly impossible. And the State of California is facing insolvency, as you all know. Enough about Mexicans.) So, to wrap this up, I see plenty of brown-skinned people from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. doing very well without chanting about "racist discrimination" and demanding that some version of "Ebonics" be used to teach their children (just the opposite, they really WANT their children to be fluent and precise in standard English). And I see Chinese, Korean, and other Asian immigrants doing well, not bellyaching that the reason they're failing is because The Man is holding them down, that Massah has passing out enough freebies. And the black libertarians and conservatives I cited earlier share this view. They don't put it quite as bluntly as I do, that the negro in America is becoming a gutter race, but they obviously think the trends of the past 40 years are disturbing and not good for the bulk of their fellow negroes. --Tim May "According to the FBI, there's a new wrinkle in prostitution: suburban teenage girls are now selling their white asses at the mall to make money to spend at the mall. ... Now, you see, the joke here, of course, is on White America, which always felt superior to blacks, and showed that with their feet, moving out of urban areas. "White flight," they called it. Whites feared blacks. They feared if they raised their kids around blacks, the blacks would turn their daughters and prostitutes. And now, through the miracle of MTV, damned if it didn't work out that way! " --Bill Maher, "Real Time with Bill Maher," HBO, 15 August 2003 From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Thu Jan 1 21:52:58 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:52:58 -0500 Subject: Singers jailed for lyrics Message-ID: At 05:19 PM 12/31/2003, John Kelsey wrote: > > In the most morally neutral case, this is like one criminal gang attacking > another. If the Sopprano family invades the Bozini family's turf, takes > over their protection rackets, and hunts down their godfather, it could be > messy, and it really will be an initiation of force in the most literal > sense. But is this the same kind of "initiation of force" that we normally > talk about when, say, a mugger knocks me over the head and takes my laptop > and wallet? (And of course, it's not that morally neutral. It's more like > a bunch of vigilantes from the neighborhood next door getting rid of the > gang running your neighborhood, for reasons of their own, but probably to > your benefit.) Although I disagree with the personal benefit aspect, this is the way I view the two major US poltical parties: two mob organizations fighting over turf and tax spoils. I think its time to clean up the D.C. (Augean) Stables. ND From timcmay at got.net Fri Jan 2 01:02:20 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 01:02:20 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <2C4F878E-3CFA-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <20040101221313.L34252@mx1.mfn.org> <20040102010610.A30062@positron.mit.edu> <2C4F878E-3CFA-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <5F38E6A8-3D02-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 2, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Tim May wrote: > So Kennedy's liberals scratched their heads and came up with a new > plan. "Relief" would be converted to a series of state and national > programs, no longer handled locally. And the bad connotations of > "relief" would be changed by the new and positive name "entitlement." > > Money handed out to various folks would be their "entitlement," > something they were _owed_. Other related names would be "social > services" and, of course, liberal mention of "children" and > "nutrition." Ergo programs like WIC ("Women, Infants, and Children"). > Ergo, "Head Start." And I should have elaborated on the family system effects of the new welfare system: since the "entitlements" were not given to families with husbands in the household, this made marriage a bad idea for those wanting to get welfare. A young girl could go from the bottom of the pecking order in her household to the top in her own apartment, with an income from welfare that increased with each baby she had. So we had the spectacle of 14-year-old girls being given their own apartments by Big Brother, paid for with taxes taken from working suckers. The effects of this are so corrosive as to practically be unexplainable to normal people: households solely dependent on handouts from government, fathers completely absent (except in sneak visits), a disrespect for those who work, the boys in the household anxious to hang out on the streets below rather than be with Momma, the crime that comes from this kind of hanging out, self-loathing (it seems likely) that leads to lashing out at "whitey," and a perpetuating cycle as the young girls seek to get their own "cribs" so the process can repeat and expand. This is why so many black families today are into their third or even fourth generation of welfare life. By the way, part of the reason Kennedy wanted to "remove the stigma of relief" was because the decade of the 1950s had been especially bad for the urban poor. Many blacks had moved from farms in the south to cities like Washington, New York, Cincinnati, Oakland, Chicago, etc. Partly they had moved to work in factories during the war, partly because automation on the farms had displaced manual laborers, partly because they heard of the success of other blacks who had moved north. But they were moving into the cities just as the whites were leaving. (And the whites were not leaving because the blacks were coming in...rather, the new jobs were increasingly in the suburbs, and as highways and freeways and ring roads were built around cities, and as cars became plentiful, and as families grew, many of the city-born whites were moving into the massive new subdivisions being built out in the suburbs.) So the blacks got to the inner cities with mostly only manual labor skills, just as such jobs were vanishing under automation and through a shift to the suburbs. Now what government _should have done_ circa the early 1960s is this: Nothing. Except to cut taxes to encourage even more business, and to maybe point out to blacks that they should slow down their move to the cities. (By the way, the same move to the cities was happening in other countries, which is why Mexico City now has something like 20 million residents, most of them very poor.) But instead of letting the dice fall where they may, letting the bad effects discourage other blacks from moving to the cities, Kennedy set his advisors to the problem of solving "urban poverty." They expanded welfare and entitlements, ostensibly because America "could afford it" (the 1950s having been a prosperous period). Precisely the wrong thing to do. It encouraged even more blacks to flock to the cities, and once started, once established, the welfare spigot could not be turned off, could not be denied to the newcomers. Whoops. And none of the planners, I expect, saw the effects of the law of unintended consequences, that they would disincentive blacks from seeking hard jobs, that multigenerational welfare would become the norm, and that blacks would be seen by those doing so well in the rapidly-expanding, prosperous suburbs as some kind of throwback to plantation life. The various "demands" by black leaders, the reverse racism ("honkie mofo"), the whole hatred for learning ("reading be for whitey") all combined with the welfare state in these cities to create this gutterization of the negro. Even when the full magnitude of this developing train wreck was obvious even to the liberals, they didn't pull back from the brink and say "Let's stop this train wreck." Nope, they said the problem was "not enough money." So benefits were expanded in the 1970s, with more Medicare, Medical, larger payments...the idea was to pay enough to get people "back on their feet." But of course, human nature being what it is, most took the higher payments and bought nicer stuff, hence the color televisions found in every "crib." And the huge influxes of Mexicans during the 70s and 80s magnified the problem (to turn down Mexicans for the same "entitlements" that blacks were getting would not have been kosher, would it?). The effect was that large chunks of cities now had urbanized Mexican ghettoes, paid for with dollars coming from the taxed suckers out in the suburbs. Whoops. Another train wreck. And it continues. Finally, even Bill Clinton, a Democrat, tried to put the brakes on welfare. It's worked in some ways, but not in other ways. Just too many "entitlements" to stop the hemorrhaging of money. (To those who claim the biggest recipients of "welfare" are corporations, review again what I wrote about "sources and sinks." And look at the $40 billion hole California is in. It isn't because of any "welfare to corporations." The "services" sector is a black hole sucking in nearly all of the tax monies collected in California.) The problem is that some well-meaning social planners thought they could fix a fundamental problem (poor people moving into cities) by giving money to the poor people in cities. It not only didn't work, it worsened the problem in multiple ways and largely caused the "racial" divisions of today. --Tim May "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" From rsw at jfet.org Thu Jan 1 22:06:10 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 01:06:10 -0500 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <20040101221313.L34252@mx1.mfn.org>; from measl@mfn.org on Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 10:20:16PM -0600 References: <20040101221313.L34252@mx1.mfn.org> Message-ID: <20040102010610.A30062@positron.mit.edu> "J.A. Terranson" wrote: > Why the BedSty student Tim? Uhh, read more carefully. He was responding to a specific point from Tyler Durden. > You have some incredible moments of lucidity and insight, and occasionally, > we are the lucky recipients of these fleeting events - but then, just as sure > as the sun coming over the horizon every morning of every day, you slip back > into the pseudo-intellectual racist crap. What's wit dat? I don't think Tim is racist as such. He hates everyone equally. :-) But seriously, calling it racism seems wrong-headed. Racism is "I hate black people because they're black." Tim hates (some, most, all?) black people because he percieves them as benefitting unfairly from his hard work. I'm pretty sure, all other things being equal, he wouldn't hate a black person who, through his own hard work and without taking a penny from the government, turned himself into a successful, tax-paying "source." Or, at least, I'm not convinced he would hate such a person, which is to say I'm not convinced he's a racist. It seems that more and more people see "racism" where it doesn't (necessarily) exist. Perhaps this is simply because it's a convenient catch-all counter-argument---"you're arguing that way because you're a racist, hence you're immoral, hence I win," an ad hominem "trump card" that more often than not passes for a real argument, probably because people are afraid to voice opinions to the contrary for fear of being labeled racists themselves. Another more insidious possibility is that as a result of such tactics, people actually _do_ see racism where it isn't. The latter worries me. A lot. In any case, before you tear into me for being Tim's shill, consider whether the following examples count as X-ism: 1) I hate X people because they are X. 2) I hate X people because most people who are X are also Y. 3) I hate people who are Y. Most people who are Y are also X. I'd say that the first one is the very definition of X-ism. The second one seems to me to be a special case of Y-ism (assuming that, as seems to be the case given the phrasing, Y's are hated for being Y), but is not X-ism. The third one, the one I believe describes this situation, is not X-ism. You might care to call into question the generalization "most people who are Y are also X," but even that isn't X-ism unless the generalization is motivated by a thought process similar to #1. -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From mellon at pobox.com Thu Jan 1 17:08:27 2004 From: mellon at pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 03:08:27 +0200 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism In-Reply-To: <20031231191401.GA19843@cybershamanix.com> References: <20031231161826.GC19712@cybershamanix.com> <20031231191401.GA19843@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <20040102010827.GA467@pobox.com> On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 01:14:01PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 01:59:50PM -0500, Sunder wrote: > > If those are your beliefs, then by all means, set the first example, and > > go kill yourself. Better yet, sacrifice yourself to your goddess... By > > doing so, you'll also earn yourself a Darwin Award... unless you've > > already fathered kids... But from your tone of voice, I'd say you've > > probably castrated yourself years ago. > > No, I have offspring. But what makes you think I'm human? The painful banality and stupidity of the junk you're spouting is a good indicator. -- avva From justin-cypherpunks at soze.net Thu Jan 1 20:26:08 2004 From: justin-cypherpunks at soze.net (Justin) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 04:26:08 +0000 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <20040102042608.GA5461@dreams.soze.net> Tim May (2004-01-02 02:42Z) wrote: > Bob, a crack addict collecting "disability" or welfare or other > government freebies, works 0% of his time for the government/society. > ("Dat not true. I gots to stands in line to get my check increased!") Do those who have previously been in the workforce, in your opinion, have the right to reclaim through welfare any amount up to that they've paid through taxes to the entity providing welfare/unemployment? Or is all unemployment money Pluto's fruit? From shaddack at ns.arachne.cz Thu Jan 1 19:44:45 2004 From: shaddack at ns.arachne.cz (Thomas Shaddack) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 04:44:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <131475D4-3CD1-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <131475D4-3CD1-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <0401020436200.0@somehost.domainz.com> On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tim May wrote: > A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators > and general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general > assembler, hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact > this is necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as > otherwise it takes all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the world, > if they could make nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom of > a test tube. Or a few-dollar fermentation tanks with suitable bacteria, once its genome is tweaked in required way. Who ever said that the nanoparticles we need can't be proteins or organic molecules with required shape/properties? If viral particles can self-assemble from host-cell-synthetized proteins, if complicated structures like bacterial propulsion systems - or even whole plants - can be formed, why not nanomechanical systems? Why bother with assembling machines when they could be grown? I hope I didn't screw up my understanding of "nanosynthesis". If it is "build anything you want by telling the general assembler", then this won't work and would need a lab; but for mass-producing nnoparticles, eg. surface coatings or elements for camera or memory arrays, biotech should be good enough. From mkalus at thedarkerside.to Fri Jan 2 02:23:19 2004 From: mkalus at thedarkerside.to (Michael Kalus) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 05:23:19 -0500 Subject: Statement on H.R. 2417 Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/12/20031213-3.html Statement on H.R. 2417 Statement by the President Today, I have signed into law H.R. 2417, the "Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2004." The Act authorizes funding for United States intelligence activities, including activities in the war against terrorists of global reach. Section 506A(c) of the National Security Act of 1947, as enacted by section 312(b) of the Act, purports to require the President to request that the Congress enact laws appropriating funding for a major intelligence system procurement in an amount set as a cost estimate by an entity subordinate to the President or to explain why the President instead requests amounts below those levels. Moreover, beginning with the submittal to the Congress of the President's budget for FY 2006, section 312(d)(2) of H.R. 2417 purports to condition the obligation or expenditure of funds for development or procurement of a major intelligence system on the President's compliance with the requirements of section 506A. The executive branch shall construe these provisions in a manner consistent with the Constitution's commitment to the President of exclusive authority to submit for the consideration of the Congress such measures as the President judges necessary and expedient and to supervise the unitary executive branch, and to withhold information the disclosure of which could impair the deliberative processes of the Executive or the performance of the Executive's constitutional duties. Section 341(b) purports to require the Attorney General and the Director of Central Intelligence, acting through particular offices subordinate to them respectively, to establish certain policies and procedures relating to espionage prosecutions. The executive branch shall implement this provision in a manner consistent with the authority committed exclusively to the President by the Constitution to faithfully execute the laws and to supervise the unitary executive branch. Similarly, sections 1102(a) and 1102(c) of the National Security Act, as enacted by section 341(a) of the Act, purport to mandate that the Director of Central Intelligence use or act through the Office of National Counterintelligence Executive to establish and implement an inspection process for all agencies and departments of the U.S. Government that handle classified information. The executive branch shall implement this provision in a manner consistent with the President's constitutional authority to supervise the unitary executive branch. The executive branch shall construe and implement section 376 of the Act, relating to making available classified information to courts, in a manner consistent with the President's constitutional authority to classify and control access to information bearing on the national security and consistent with the statutory authority of the Attorney General for the conduct of litigation for the United States. Many provisions of the Act, including section 106 and subtitle D of title III of the Act, seek to require the executive branch to furnish information to the Congress on various subjects. The executive branch shall construe the provisions in a manner consistent with the President's constitutional authority to withhold information the disclosure of which could impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative processes of the Executive, or the performance of the Executive's constitutional duties. The executive branch shall implement section 319 of the Act in a manner consistent with the requirement to afford equal protection of the laws under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. Section 502 purports to place restrictions on use of the U.S. Armed Forces and other personnel in certain operations. The executive branch shall construe the restrictions -in section 502 as advisory in nature, so that the provisions are consistent with the President's constitutional authority as Commander in Chief, including for the conduct of intelligence operations, and to supervise the unitary executive branch. Section 106 enacts by reference certain requirements set forth in the joint explanatory statement of the House-Senate committee of conference or in a classified annex. The executive branch continues to discourage this practice of enacting secret laws and encourages instead appropriate non-binding uses of classified schedules of authorizations, classified annexes to committee reports, and joint statements of managers that accompany the final legislation. GEORGE W. BUSH THE WHITE HOUSE, December 13, 2003. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP/VGomlCnxcrW2uuEQKyAgCbBvlu57NoR+uvNMgDIVT+mUYItRoAoOXj erAm6POoymt4dXbaxNKQbCN0 =Cfai -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mkalus at thedarkerside.to Fri Jan 2 05:07:37 2004 From: mkalus at thedarkerside.to (Michael Kalus) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 08:07:37 -0500 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > This is why the "Tax Freedom Day" approach is more useful. Tax freedom > day is of course the day when the average American or Brit or whatever > has stopped working for the government and has the rest of his income > for himself. For most years, this is estimated to around May-June. > That is, for almost half of a year a typical taxpayer is working for > the government. > Replace "Government" with "Society" and you're getting somewhere. Where will your brand new sports car go when you don't have a road to drive on? Who will pay the cops when there are no taxes being collected? > Not a perfect measure, as it averages together folks of various tax > brackets, including the many in America who pay nothing (but it > doesn't assign a negative number to those who receive "net net" money > from the government). And it fails to take into account the double > taxation which a business owner faces: roughly a 50% tax on his > profits, then when the profits are disbursed to the owners of the > corporation, another 35-45% tax bite. For a business owner, he is > effectively working for the government for the first 70% of every > year. Which means only October-December is he working for his own > interests. > The business though benefits extremly from the infrastructure that is build with taxes. Plus a lot of companies can exempt even more money, so in essence a lot of companies don't pay a dime in taxes. > > Jabber about how poor people are actually receiving fewer tax benefits > than rich people misses the point of who's working for whom. > Yes, the poorer are working and contributing to the Riches. Always Remember: YOU stand on the backs of those who you despise so much. > Alice, an engineer or pharmacist or perhaps a small business owner, > works between 40% and 70% of her time to pay money into government. > And how much money does she get back by services? Say: Homelandsecurity? Say: Roadconstruction? etc.? > Bob, a crack addict collecting "disability" or welfare or other > government freebies, works 0% of his time for the government/society. > ("Dat not true. I gots to stands in line to get my check increased!") > Well, why don't you just take him out and shoot him then? > Alice is a source, Bob is a sink. Talk about how Alice gets benefits > ignores the fact that she's working for the government for a big chunk > of her life. Bob is not. Alice is a slave for the government, and > "society," so that Bob can lounge in his mobile home watching ESPN and > collecting a monthly check. > And how many Bobs are out there? Also, you forgot Fred. Fred is the guy who works for Alice, supposly only 40 hours a week, but they are short staffed as Alice needs to make sure that her investors get a "good bang for the buck" so Fred has been in reality working more to 70 hours a week and hasn't really seen his kids anymore. He is only paid for 40 hours though as Alice explained to Fred that she just doesn't have the money to pay for overtime. Then Fred gets sick, but Alice didn't provide any benefits (after all she needs to make a profit for the shareholders), thus Fred has to get by what he has saved up while hoping that the government would give him some money. > (I'd like to know why all of the folks here in California who are > getting "benefits" and "services" are not at my door on Saturday > morning to help me with my yard work. I'd like to know why finding > reliable yard workers has become nearly impossible in the past couple > of decades. "Will work for food" signs are a fucking joke...try hiring > one of those layabouts to actually do some work for food and watch the > sneers, or watch them threatening to fake a work injury if a shakedown > fee is not given to them. These people should be put in lime pits.) blah blah blah. The world is so unfair to you. You just can't get a good slave anymore these days for nothing. > > When you hear John Young and Tyler Durden nattering about the "persons > of privilege" are reaping the rewards of a benificent government, > think about Alice and Bob and ask yourself who'se doing the real work. > Ask who're the sources and who're the sinks. > Fred is doing the real work, and gets a kick in the butt by Alice the moment he is not "worth" enough anymore. You, of course, still carry the idea that everybody has the right to be rich. That the World doesn't have infinite resources nor that the money is an infinite resources is ignored by the likes of you. After all you have made it on the backs of all the Freds out there. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP/VtHGlCnxcrW2uuEQJHawCgpIcaR+lRC2MwqFJzebr+XxEshzMAoKPP yRgG7Q1OLgzfcOzTFHbOqGP6 =HPPh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 08:32:43 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 08:32:43 -0800 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism and Hot Negresses Message-ID: <3FF59D2B.3DA96AB8@cdc.gov> At 08:53 PM 12/31/03 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: You'd >dice and slice an African American population, but then again it's from >these inner cities that much of popular American culture has arisen (ie, >between pro sports, various forms of music and so on...). Is this supposed to be an argument *for* the AA pop? None of us, even TM, methinks, has anything against anyone for where their ancestors came. Many of us have much against various *cultures*, which are by definition voluntary, unlike albedo. Cultures being chosen sets of values, values being moral, ergo judgeable. Genes being inherited are largely irrelevant to the discussion. Trash is trash, it doesn't matter the color of the bag containing it. And noble metals come in many colors. From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 08:33:09 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 08:33:09 -0800 Subject: Singers jailed for lyrics Message-ID: <3FF59D45.A36945E7@cdc.gov> At 08:19 PM 12/31/03 -0500, John Kelsey wrote: >At 05:56 PM 12/30/03 -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >>If I were a neocon asshole, I would. Instead, I regard liberation as a >>local task, and interfering with sovereignty as the initiation of force, >>ie an act of war. > >Well, clearly bombing and invading them was an initiation of force, in the >most literal sense--we shot first. But while I can see that individuals >have a right that you violate by initiating force against them, I don't see >how that can apply to governments, especially governments whose main method >of keeping power involves terrorizing their citizens. (What, you mean like using the US police to deprive us of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?) My neighbors subject their offspring to a kind of abuse commonly called religion. Do I have a right to intercede? They are not harming *me*. Stay out of others family spats. Or as Gen'l W said, Trade with all, make treaties with none, and beware of foreign entanglements. (Mind you, as an reformed Objectivist, I do believe in absolute right and wrong; but does this give me the right to initiate force to clue you in? When do we start bombing Berlin?) From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 08:33:27 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 08:33:27 -0800 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism Message-ID: <3FF59D57.4B213EEE@cdc.gov> At 08:45 PM 12/31/03 -0500, John Kelsey wrote: > >You do know she's been trying the same scheme for several hundred thousand >years, right? As an artist, I think she's in a creative decline. Ebola is >picturesque and flashy, but not all that scary unless your funeral rites >involve lots of contact with the blood of your dearly departed. I think E. is a bit more contagious than you recognize. It just hasn't had the chance to play in dense pops. AIDS is >more subtle, rather like syphlus before good antibiotics, but it's not her >best work. Yeah but the meatbots do love to spread it, and here you again fail to recognize Her subtlety. Even SARS is Yet Another Coughed Contagion. If I recall >correctly, smallpox got 90% of the American Indians who were exposed, and >measles killed something like 1/3 of Roman citizens. Smallpox would reduce real estate prices by 1/3 at least, possibly more in cities. An interesting question is what decline (and what rate of decline) west.civ. can tolerate these days. Still, looking at the Roman Empire (aka paleo-cons) disease isn't necessary, though it sure helps. Famine and war are pretty good cards in Her Hands too. Guns, germs, and steel, baby. From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 08:33:42 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 08:33:42 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: <3FF59D66.958AA55E@cdc.gov> At 12:14 AM 1/1/04 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: >Of >course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, >and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the >education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are >an untouchable. You get it because you "didn't do well" in school, or >you "dropped out, and "you could have been successful if you had just >tried harder." Seems that someone has a problem grasping natural variation. Perhaps you would prefer that the majority starve, or live in pre-agricultural poverty, rather than accept a comfy (if low-status) niche made possible by large foreheads. Tsk tsk. From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 08:34:03 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 08:34:03 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: <3FF59D7B.716274F7@cdc.gov> At 11:51 AM 1/1/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >"Stay In School!" > >In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known >statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we white >folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private >school. Right. And the value of an uneducated result of an unaborted fuck 18 years ago is so useful that schooling is unnecessary, just part of the Man (tm) keeping the People (tm) down. Ayup. Plenty of grubs to be dug if that's what you prefer. The rest of us prefer personal capitalism, ie investment, ie education. There's a reason the Jews and Asians (etc) suceed and other --often more fluent-- cultures don't, and it has to do with the value some cultures put on education. The truth will set you free, or not. Your choice. From mkalus at thedarkerside.to Fri Jan 2 07:03:31 2004 From: mkalus at thedarkerside.to (Michael Kalus) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:03:31 -0500 Subject: Brazilians reciprocate on US travel policy Message-ID: <3FF58843.1090101@thedarkerside.to> http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimes/newsst/newsst1073024337.asp SAO PAULO - Brazilian police photographed and fingerprinted all arriving Americans on Thursday - tit-for-tat for a similar US program that begins next week. In all, 230 American citizens were thus identified Thursday at Brazil's largest international airport here under what a federal police spokesman called a "judicial decision." That decision was handed down earlier in the week by Judge Julier Sebastiao da Silva of the federal bench in the central Brazilian city of Mato Grosso based on "the principle of reciprocity," although it could still be annulled by the federal government. The identification measures were not immediately put into effect at the airport in Rio de Janeiro, where federal police said they had not yet received official instructions, according to the Brazilian press agency, Agencia Brasil. Beginning January 5, immigration officials at all US international airports will vet visitors' passports and visas and pose the usual questions - before taking their fingerprints and photographs. That is phase one of US-VISIT, a 380-million-dollar effort to track down terrorists. Visitors from 27 countries whose citizens do not need visas to enter the United States - mostly in Europe, are exempted. By 2005, every port-of-entry on land, sea and air will have the fingerprint and photographic technology. All US visas and passports will eventually include photos and fingerprints - called "biometric identifiers." The program takes effect after the United States raised its terror alert to its next-to-highest level in December. Intelligence indicated that al-Qaeda was planning to hijack airliners for a repeat of its September 11 attacks in which 3,000 died. /AFP/ - From timcmay at got.net Fri Jan 2 10:18:02 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:18:02 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: <00C2A8E6-3D50-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> I composed and sent this message, and one following it, last night. Lne.com has not yet forwarded either, 10 hours later. I checked Eric's message and he said new _subscriptions_ will no longer be accepted after 04-01-01 and mail will no no longer be forwarded after 04-01-15. Perhaps he is halting operations early. All things must end. Begin forwarded message: > From: Tim May > Date: January 2, 2004 12:03:39 AM PST > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey > > > On Jan 1, 2004, at 10:06 PM, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > >> "J.A. Terranson" wrote: >>> Why the BedSty student Tim? >> >> Uhh, read more carefully. He was responding to a specific point from >> Tyler Durden. >> >>> You have some incredible moments of lucidity and insight, and >>> occasionally, >>> we are the lucky recipients of these fleeting events - but then, >>> just as sure >>> as the sun coming over the horizon every morning of every day, you >>> slip back >>> into the pseudo-intellectual racist crap. What's wit dat? >> >> I don't think Tim is racist as such. He hates everyone equally. :-) >> But seriously, calling it racism seems wrong-headed. Racism is "I >> hate black people because they're black." Tim hates (some, most, >> all?) black people because he percieves them as benefitting unfairly >> from his hard work. I'm pretty sure, all other things being equal, he >> wouldn't hate a black person who, through his own hard work and >> without taking a penny from the government, turned himself into a >> successful, tax-paying "source." Or, at least, I'm not convinced he >> would hate such a person, which is to say I'm not convinced he's a >> racist. > > I admire many negroes. Shelby Steele, who wrote "The Content of our > Character," for example. And Thomas Sowell, an even more prolific > author (and Stanford professor). And Niger Innes (son of the lefty Roy > Innes...a lot of children of 60s liberal negroes are now libertarian > or conservative, e.g., Adam Clayton Powell's son). And Clarence Thomas > (who has argued forcefully that the Supremes ought to do a very > thorough review of gun laws, with the hint that the right decision > would be to restore the Second Amendment to first class status). And a > bunch of others, including Ward Connerly, of California, who has been > leading the effort to have "race" removed as the basis for _any_ > government actions, including hiring quotas, special admissions > requirements for negroes and Asians (at opposite ends of the test > score spectrum), and so on. > > I don't admire the politics of Condie Rice and Colin Powell, but there > is little doubt that they are accomplished, bright people. > > My problem is that negroes are 80% in solidarity on a bunch of > disgusting, anti-liberty things: affirmative action, racial quotas, > minority setasides (but not for successful minorities--they want > limits on the number of Asians admitted to UC schools), welfare, > increased benefits, etc. > > Further, they, as a whole, have a "plantation mentality": always > demanding that Massa in the Big White House give them more stuff. > Instead of excelling and grabbing the stuff for themselves, as Chinese > and Korean and Indian people have done in America, they think > setasides and quotas and special favoritism is "owed" to them. > > I used to not care much about what they did or thought. When I entered > college in 1970 I expected to mix with a bunch of different sorts of > people. What I found was that the negroes all sat at the same tables > in the dining halls, that whites who sat near them were chased off, > and that we non-blacks, including Asians, Indians, South Americans, > whites, etc., could mix with each other, but not with the "Panthers." > > And they ghettoized themselves into "Black Studies," which they had > "demanded" a couple of years earlier and had just gotten in 1969. > > In 1972 they formed various militant groups on campus. One obnoxious > woman named Judy became the student association president. When she > didn't like a decision, she ordered the Panthers, her enforcers, to > bar the doors and not let anyone out until the decision was reversed. > It was. > > I am not exaggerating. I included this, and the theft of ASU funds, > and the henchmen, and similar leftist actions by others (including the > MeCHA "Aztlanos"), in a letter to the Regents of the University of > California. It was published in the school newspaper, in a full-paged > spread, and I got replies from the governor of the state, Ronald > Reagan. I met with the Chancellor and he agreed that the situation at > the campus was deplorable, but that in the interests of keeping the > peace with the negroes and Mexicans, given the time (1973), there was > little they could do. He promised that his office was looking into the > allegations and already knew about most of them. > > When I joined Intel in 1974, I saw plenty of Chinese, Indians, a > handful of Koreans and Vietnamese (more later), but only one negro > engineer. And he had a major chip on his shoulder. When he was let go > in one of the RIFs, he claimed discrimination on the basis of his > melanin levels. > > Meanwhile, the excuses mounted all around about how "science is sexist > and gynophobic," about how the ancient Egyptians were actually black > Africans and had their advanced civilization (electricity, flying > cars, etc.) stolen by the "ice people" and similar such malarkey. The > Reverend Jesse Jackson, a racist hustler, tried to shake down Silicon > Valley corporations for payoffs to his Rainbow scam. (Meanwhile, > negroes avoided science, math, engineering, technology and preferred > to focus their efforts on lawsuits to get standards lowered, via "race > norming." The bullshit went on and on.) > > I look at the 75% bastard rate (compared to about 25% for whites and > about 5% for Asians in America), the black on white crime, the black > on black crime, the crack hoes, the disrespect for learning....all > this and I can draw only one conclusion" that though there are many > fine, competent, bright negroes, on the whole it is a gutter race. > > Harsh phrase, but true. A race that, in America in the last 40 years, > has become a race of beggars, whiners, wheedlers, chiselers, whores, > crack addicts, dropouts, and unwed mothers. > > Charles Murray laid out a lot of the reasons in his book "Losing > Ground." ("Dat be a racist book!," said his detractors.) > > The seminal event was the arrival on the scene of the collectivist > JFK. Kennedy ordered his bunch of eastern elitists to look into the > "relief" system which had provided very limited and very temporary > economic assistance to folks in bad situations. For those few here old > enough (I am, just barely), this used to be called "general relief," > and it was mostly administered at the county level, in the states that > offered it. What Kennedy's brain trust found was that "relief" was > seen as an embarrassment, as a negative thing, something to avoid > getting on if at all possible and to get off of just as fast as one > could. Which is as it should be, of course. > > So Kennedy's liberals scratched their heads and came up with a new > plan. "Relief" would be converted to a series of state and national > programs, no longer handled locally. And the bad connotations of > "relief" would be changed by the new and positive name "entitlement." > > Money handed out to various folks would be their "entitlement," > something they were _owed_. Other related names would be "social > services" and, of course, liberal mention of "children" and > "nutrition." Ergo programs like WIC ("Women, Infants, and Children"). > Ergo, "Head Start." Oh, and meddling in foreign countries with things > like the Peace Corps (which, the feministas are slowly coming to > realize, did much to break "primitives" of things like breast-feeding, > while giving the baby formula industry a new world market). > > Kennedy got zapped for his many crimes, but the Good Ole Boy who took > over turned out to be just as big a collectivist as Kennedy had been, > and LBJ continued the Kennedy welfare/entitlements/handouts and called > it "The Great Society." (I don't recall if Kennedy had formally named > his progressive plan.) > > And that year was the year that negroes got to vote in all 50 states, > which of course was a good thing. The part of the Civil Rights Act > that dealt with voting rights was good. The Constitution applies to > all people. > > However, most of the Civil Rights Act was terrible, for obvious > reasons. Between it and new interpretations of the 14th Amendment > (lawyers can quote the language), and some terrible Warren Court > decisions (*), the effect was to interfere in the ability of people to > choose who to do business with, who to rent to, who to associate with, > all of the things which liberty means. > > (* The Supreme Court took a case where a negro had been denied service > at a diner in the south and used a weird series of logical steps to > argue that if negroes couldn't buy food at this diner then napkin and > ketchup and hot dog sales might be affected, and since some of that > stuff came from other states, that would be interfering in interstate > trade and only Congress can regulate that, blah blah, and so racial > discrimination was outlawed under the fucking Commerce Clause of the > Constitution! Of course, by the same logic, if Apple decides to change > suppliers of disk drives, and this means Illinois gets the business > instead of Idaho, this has also changed interstate trade. But logic > was not the point of what the Court was doing...they were looking for > any excuse to stop "discrimination.") > > OK, what of discrimination itself? Good or bad? > > Most of us probably agree that telling a black person he cannot shop > in some bookstore, told by the bookstore owner that is, is not cool, > to use a technical phrase. We might call it tacky, or unethical, or > just plain dumb. (And if the government tried to say blacks could not > enter a bookstore, this would be both interfering with the property > rights of the bookstore owner AND violating the colorblind standards > of the Constitution.) > > But libertarians argue--and this was the natural system for 170 > years--that what a property owner does with his property is, assuming > he is not violating real rights (*) of others, up to him to decide, > whether his decisions are uncool, stupid, unwise, etc. > > (* I mean real rights, as in property, personal safety, economic > ownership, etc., not some "right to enter the stores I wish to enter." > No more so than anyone has a "right" to be invited into someone's > house, or into a club, etc.) > > So, during just a couple of years of the Great Society, this > confluence of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the new interpretations of > the 14th Amendment, and Supreme Court decisions, the ability of people > and corporations to choose whom they wished to deal with, or hire, or > fire, ended. "Racial discrimination" became the new word to demonize > anyone or any group. When civil libertarians like Barry Goldwater said > this restriction on liberty was a bad direction to move in, he was > dubbed a "racist." > > I could write much more on this whole sorry episode. It's a sorry > episode not because I have any desire to exclude negroes or women or > cripples or queers or any other of the "protected groups" (added over > the years), but because it erases the concept of liberty. If I can't > rent to whom I choose, I have no control over my own belongings. > > If I can be told I must hire a certain percentage of negroes (later > dubbed "tokens'), this not only interferes with freedom of association > (which applies to groups and corporations, obviously) but it also has > a corrosive effect on those hired and how those around them think > about them. ("Token blacks" in departments of companies are often > thought of as having been hired to get the EEOC stooges off the > company's back.) > > I have the fundamental right, via ownership of my property and my > freedom of association, to hire or fire based on merit, based on whim, > based on astrology, whatever. It may not be wise, but it's my choice. > > I have the fundamental right to have only Muslims in my company, or > only Jews working in my bookstore, or to have only buxom women working > at my strip club. (Recall the "discrimination" suits filed over such > policies, including males claiming they were discriminated against, > women in wheelchairs or with mastectomies claiming they have a "right" > to be hired by a strip club that doesn't want them, and so on.) > > The can of worms that was opened when liberty was cancelled is still > with us, getting worse and worse. Feminista attorney sued a California > gym for excluding women, and the courts ordered gyms to admit > women....ah, but the same order did not ban women only gyms, and these > are now common in California. > > A church which refused to hire a Satanist was ordered to do so. (This > was later rescinded...apparently even the courts can't deal with the > Alice in Wonderland-like situation where discrimination is banned.) > > This is what Shelby Steele, the black I referred to earlier, is saying > in "The Content of our Character," that blacks should be judged on the > content of their character, not the color of their skin. (He is > quoting Martin Luther King, of course.) This does NOT mean that this > maxim gets enforced by the government, and that discriminating on the > basis of color should be illegal. He, and King (some think), is > arguing that this is the "right" thing to do, but is not something > government should be enforcing. > > Note of course that most businessmen will not turn away customers. > Things in the deep south were skewed by the War of Northern > Aggression, and it took time for sentiments to change. But in many > cases the apartheid in the south was managed and enforced by local > _governments_, with the public restrooms being "White" and "Colored." > > (As in South Africa, where companies like IBM wanted to hire blacks > but were ordered not to by the RSA government.) > > Anyway, I resent deeply being told I may not associate as I wish, may > not rent or sell my property as I wish, must meet certain hiring > quotas or face EEOC fines, must promote based on race not character or > skills, and so on. I resent deeply the whole can of worms that > involves "discrimination against gays" and "handicapped-friendly" > policies, and the whole enforced "niceness" bullshit (which is not > actually making people nicer...just the opposite, as when I had to > deal with a token we had in our department and was ordered to not do > anything that might cause him to file a discrimination lawsuit against > us). >> > > I see the success the Chinese and Indians and other Asians have had in > America...none of it do to quotas, to forced hiring, to the nonsense > the negroes keep pulling. > > (I haven't talked much about Mexicans, by the way. Many Mexicans are > perfectly fine...hard-working, friendly, etc. Often they are not very > academically-oriented, so few are in engineering positions. And many > are as bad as many of the negroes. Worse, the issue of "illegal > aliens." As Tom McClintock pointed out so cogently in his debate with > Schwarzenegger, et. al., the real issue is that these illegal aliens > (perhaps as many as 10 million now) are CUTTING IN LINE, cutting in > line ahead of those waiting patiently and legally to enter the U.S. > from Russia, Romania, India, Thailand, etc. And we gave the Mexican > and Latin American illegals an "amnesty" in the mid-90s: > Simpson-Mozzoli, a promised one time only deal. Ah, but the cynics, > including me, were right: more aliens swarmed in, looking for another > amnesty. As a pure libertarian I would have no problem with truly open > borders, provided there were absolutely no taxpayer-funded programs or > services, and provided the piles of rotting corpses were not used as > an excuse to give "services." But open immigration is not going to > happen. Meanwhile, giving these illegal aliens permanent residency > status would be a fucking disaster. As with the Simpson-Mazzoli > illegals, once amnestied they have a strong tendency to sign up for > all of the "entitlements" JFK and LBH and RMN established. Which is > why my local town has a hospital that is facing insolvency, as the > swarms of Mexicans use the services mandated by law and collection is > nearly impossible. And the State of California is facing insolvency, > as you all know. Enough about Mexicans.) > > So, to wrap this up, I see plenty of brown-skinned people from India, > Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. doing very well without chanting about > "racist discrimination" and demanding that some version of "Ebonics" > be used to teach their children (just the opposite, they really WANT > their children to be fluent and precise in standard English). And I > see Chinese, Korean, and other Asian immigrants doing well, not > bellyaching that the reason they're failing is because The Man is > holding them down, that Massah has passing out enough freebies. > > And the black libertarians and conservatives I cited earlier share > this view. They don't put it quite as bluntly as I do, that the negro > in America is becoming a gutter race, but they obviously think the > trends of the past 40 years are disturbing and not good for the bulk > of their fellow negroes. > > --Tim May > > "According to the FBI, there's a new wrinkle in prostitution: suburban > teenage girls are now selling their white asses at the mall to make > money to spend at the mall. > ... > Now, you see, the joke here, of course, is on White America, which > always felt superior to blacks, and showed that with their feet, > moving out of urban areas. "White flight," they called it. Whites > feared blacks. They feared if they raised their kids around blacks, > the blacks would turn their daughters and prostitutes. And now, > through the miracle of MTV, damned if it didn't work out that way! " > > --Bill Maher, "Real Time with Bill Maher," HBO, 15 August 2003 > > #1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim (Gentiles) is like killing a wild animal." #2. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated." #3. Yebamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age." #4. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed." #5. Yebamoth 98a: "All gentile children are animals." #6. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean." #7. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts." From timcmay at got.net Fri Jan 2 10:18:55 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:18:55 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: <203EEC40-3D50-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Second of the items lne.com never sent to the list (that I have seen, 9-10 hours later). Begin forwarded message: > From: Tim May > Date: January 2, 2004 1:02:20 AM PST > To: cypherpunks at lne.com > Subject: Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey > > > On Jan 2, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Tim May wrote: > >> So Kennedy's liberals scratched their heads and came up with a new >> plan. "Relief" would be converted to a series of state and national >> programs, no longer handled locally. And the bad connotations of >> "relief" would be changed by the new and positive name "entitlement." >> >> Money handed out to various folks would be their "entitlement," >> something they were _owed_. Other related names would be "social >> services" and, of course, liberal mention of "children" and >> "nutrition." Ergo programs like WIC ("Women, Infants, and Children"). >> Ergo, "Head Start." > > And I should have elaborated on the family system effects of the new > welfare system: since the "entitlements" were not given to families > with husbands in the household, this made marriage a bad idea for > those wanting to get welfare. > > A young girl could go from the bottom of the pecking order in her > household to the top in her own apartment, with an income from welfare > that increased with each baby she had. So we had the spectacle of > 14-year-old girls being given their own apartments by Big Brother, > paid for with taxes taken from working suckers. > > The effects of this are so corrosive as to practically be > unexplainable to normal people: households solely dependent on > handouts from government, fathers completely absent (except in sneak > visits), a disrespect for those who work, the boys in the household > anxious to hang out on the streets below rather than be with Momma, > the crime that comes from this kind of hanging out, self-loathing (it > seems likely) that leads to lashing out at "whitey," and a > perpetuating cycle as the young girls seek to get their own "cribs" so > the process can repeat and expand. > > This is why so many black families today are into their third or even > fourth generation of welfare life. > > By the way, part of the reason Kennedy wanted to "remove the stigma of > relief" was because the decade of the 1950s had been especially bad > for the urban poor. Many blacks had moved from farms in the south to > cities like Washington, New York, Cincinnati, Oakland, Chicago, etc. > Partly they had moved to work in factories during the war, partly > because automation on the farms had displaced manual laborers, partly > because they heard of the success of other blacks who had moved north. > > But they were moving into the cities just as the whites were leaving. > (And the whites were not leaving because the blacks were coming > in...rather, the new jobs were increasingly in the suburbs, and as > highways and freeways and ring roads were built around cities, and as > cars became plentiful, and as families grew, many of the city-born > whites were moving into the massive new subdivisions being built out > in the suburbs.) > > So the blacks got to the inner cities with mostly only manual labor > skills, just as such jobs were vanishing under automation and through > a shift to the suburbs. > > Now what government _should have done_ circa the early 1960s is this: > Nothing. Except to cut taxes to encourage even more business, and to > maybe point out to blacks that they should slow down their move to the > cities. (By the way, the same move to the cities was happening in > other countries, which is why Mexico City now has something like 20 > million residents, most of them very poor.) > > But instead of letting the dice fall where they may, letting the bad > effects discourage other blacks from moving to the cities, Kennedy set > his advisors to the problem of solving "urban poverty." They expanded > welfare and entitlements, ostensibly because America "could afford it" > (the 1950s having been a prosperous period). > > Precisely the wrong thing to do. It encouraged even more blacks to > flock to the cities, and once started, once established, the welfare > spigot could not be turned off, could not be denied to the newcomers. > Whoops. > > And none of the planners, I expect, saw the effects of the law of > unintended consequences, that they would disincentive blacks from > seeking hard jobs, that multigenerational welfare would become the > norm, and that blacks would be seen by those doing so well in the > rapidly-expanding, prosperous suburbs as some kind of throwback to > plantation life. The various "demands" by black leaders, the reverse > racism ("honkie mofo"), the whole hatred for learning ("reading be for > whitey") all combined with the welfare state in these cities to create > this gutterization of the negro. > > Even when the full magnitude of this developing train wreck was > obvious even to the liberals, they didn't pull back from the brink and > say "Let's stop this train wreck." Nope, they said the problem was > "not enough money." So benefits were expanded in the 1970s, with more > Medicare, Medical, larger payments...the idea was to pay enough to get > people "back on their feet." But of course, human nature being what it > is, most took the higher payments and bought nicer stuff, hence the > color televisions found in every "crib." > > And the huge influxes of Mexicans during the 70s and 80s magnified the > problem (to turn down Mexicans for the same "entitlements" that blacks > were getting would not have been kosher, would it?). The effect was > that large chunks of cities now had urbanized Mexican ghettoes, paid > for with dollars coming from the taxed suckers out in the suburbs. > > Whoops. Another train wreck. > > And it continues. Finally, even Bill Clinton, a Democrat, tried to put > the brakes on welfare. It's worked in some ways, but not in other > ways. Just too many "entitlements" to stop the hemorrhaging of money. > > (To those who claim the biggest recipients of "welfare" are > corporations, review again what I wrote about "sources and sinks." And > look at the $40 billion hole California is in. It isn't because of any > "welfare to corporations." The "services" sector is a black hole > sucking in nearly all of the tax monies collected in California.) > > The problem is that some well-meaning social planners thought they > could fix a fundamental problem (poor people moving into cities) by > giving money to the poor people in cities. It not only didn't work, it > worsened the problem in multiple ways and largely caused the "racial" > divisions of today. > > > --Tim May > "Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and > strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman > explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound" > > --Tim May "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 10:34:56 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:34:56 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: <3FF5B9D0.8A6B3E7C@cdc.gov> At 11:51 AM 1/1/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >"Stay In School!" > >In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known >statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we white >folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private >school. Right. And the value of an uneducated result of an unaborted fuck 18 years ago is so useful that schooling is unnecessary, just part of the Man (tm) keeping the People (tm) down. Ayup. Plenty of grubs to be dug if that's what you prefer. The rest of us prefer personal capitalism, ie investment, ie education. There's a reason the Jews and Asians (etc) suceed and other --often more fluent-- cultures don't, and it has to do with the value some cultures put on education. The truth will set you free, or not. Your choice. From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 10:35:03 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:35:03 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey Message-ID: <3FF5B9D7.E990620@cdc.gov> At 12:14 AM 1/1/04 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: >Of >course, they still need one to determine who gets the shit-hauling jobs, >and the usual method of doing this is to hide the class system in the >education system. Now you don't get the shit-hauling job because you are >an untouchable. You get it because you "didn't do well" in school, or >you "dropped out, and "you could have been successful if you had just >tried harder." Seems that someone has a problem grasping natural variation. Perhaps you would prefer that the majority starve, or live in pre-agricultural poverty, rather than accept a comfy (if low-status) niche made possible by large foreheads. Tsk tsk. From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 10:35:11 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:35:11 -0800 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism Message-ID: <3FF5B9DF.604738DA@cdc.gov> At 08:45 PM 12/31/03 -0500, John Kelsey wrote: > >You do know she's been trying the same scheme for several hundred thousand >years, right? As an artist, I think she's in a creative decline. Ebola is >picturesque and flashy, but not all that scary unless your funeral rites >involve lots of contact with the blood of your dearly departed. I think E. is a bit more contagious than you recognize. It just hasn't had the chance to play in dense pops. AIDS is >more subtle, rather like syphlus before good antibiotics, but it's not her >best work. Yeah but the meatbots do love to spread it, and here you again fail to recognize Her subtlety. Even SARS is Yet Another Coughed Contagion. If I recall >correctly, smallpox got 90% of the American Indians who were exposed, and >measles killed something like 1/3 of Roman citizens. Smallpox would reduce real estate prices by 1/3 at least, possibly more in cities. An interesting question is what decline (and what rate of decline) west.civ. can tolerate these days. Still, looking at the Roman Empire (aka paleo-cons) disease isn't necessary, though it sure helps. Famine and war are pretty good cards in Her Hands too. Guns, germs, and steel, baby. From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Fri Jan 2 09:38:39 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:38:39 -0500 Subject: Optical MicroMachines Be For Whitey Message-ID: Tim May wrote... "The last refuge of the scoundrel is to dismiss stuff as "secondary and tertiary sources," sort of like the fakers I used to meet in college who nattered on about having learned their physics from Newton's "Principia" instead of from secondary and tertiary sources." Oh, no...don't try to cram me into that category (or practically any other you can think of, for that matter). I'm a trained, degreed, published, and multi-patented physicsist. I regard as "Primary Sources" anything published in a fairly accepted journal or conference proceedings (though the latter can be hard to find, depending on the conference)....I might read a good review paper once in a while, but in the journals these are normally invited papers, and written by known people in the field they are summarizing. My admission of ignorance of that end of Von Neumann is precisely that: admission of ignorance due to not having read much ABOUT him, and having only read his more famous papers. As for a universal nano generator, that notion has seemed a little too science-fictiony for my tastes, though in the optical world some of my colleagues were developing some fairly amazing optical lab-benches on a chip, but these are more at the micron scale. You'll pardon my scepticism about a universal generator being a useful notion any time in the near future...the recently defunct Optical Micro Machines (OMM) couldn't even get a micron-scale 3-D optical cross connect to work reliably (nor could anyone else, including Lucent, MEMS-R-US, or hosts of others), so that nano-scale generator is at least decades away, if it will ever be possible. -TD >From: Tim May >To: cypherpunks at lne.com >Subject: Re: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:09:27 -0800 > >I'll comment on the sociology after commenting on the physics: > >(actually, looking over your sociology, I see it's just more of the liberal >whine and sleaze, so I won't bother commenting on it again) > >On Jan 1, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: > >>Tim May wrote... >> >>>Then your education in physics about von Neumann is sorely lacking. Von >>>Neumann spend part of several years investigating self-replicating >>>machines, using some ideas of Ulam and others. Well-covered in the >>>cellular automata literature. >> >>As you can probably tell, I've never read many secondary or tertiary >>sources. (ie, as a physicist I've always considered it of dubious >>usefulness to read ABOUT physics...) I've only read the few more famous >>von Neumann journal articles I've come across w.r.t. cellular automata...I >>actually thought he had only written two or three, and I don't remember >>his ideas of self-replicating machines as including something like a GA, >>but then again it's easily possible I didn't pick up on the ramifications >>of what I was reading (which is granted when I was much younger). > >The last refuge of the scoundrel is to dismiss stuff as "secondary and >tertiary sources," sort of like the fakers I used to meet in college who >nattered on about having learned their physics from Newton's "Principia" >instead of from secondary and tertiary sources. > >I encountered von Neumann's work on self-replicating machines when I was in >high school (*). It came up in connection with the Fermi paradox and in >issues of life (this was before the term "artificial life" was au >courant...I was at the first A-LIFE Conference in '87...von Neumann >couldn't make it). > >(* And no, I don't know mean my high school teachers taught us about von >Neumann machines. 97% of the science I knew by the time I graduated from >high school I'd learned on my own, from the usual "secondary and tertiary >sources.") > >A few moments of thought will show the connection between replicators and >general assemblers. A general assembler can make another general assembler, >hence all general assemblers are replicators. And in fact this is >necessary to make mechanosynthesis nanotech viable, as otherwise it takes >all the multibillion dollar wafer fabs in the world, if they could make >nanoscale things, to make some scum on the bottom of a test tube. GAs only >start to become possible after the replication problem has been solved >(which it has not, despite claims about self-reproducing software >structures and train sets and the like). > >If you are not aware of basic developments, recall Wittgenstein's maxim: >"Whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent." > >> >--Tim May >"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a >monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into >you." -- Nietzsche _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our limited-time introductory offer for dial-up Internet access. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From schoen at loyalty.org Fri Jan 2 12:47:25 2004 From: schoen at loyalty.org (Seth David Schoen) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 12:47:25 -0800 Subject: [camram-spam] Re: Microsoft publicly announces Penny Black PoW postage project In-Reply-To: <3FF38101.3080107@harvee.org> References: <3FF184C2.9070002@harvee.org> <$Z2sQuJGYd8$EADj@highwayman.com> <3FF2A856.50900@algroup.co.uk> <3FF38101.3080107@harvee.org> Message-ID: <20040102204725.GC19121@zork.net> Eric S. Johansson writes: > Ben Laurie wrote: > > >Richard Clayton wrote: > > > >>and in these schemes, where does our esteemed moderator get _his_ stamps > >>from ? remember that not all bulk email is spam by any means... or do > >>we end up with whitelists all over the place and the focus of attacks > >>moves to the ingress to the mailing lists :( > > > > > >He uses the stamp that you generated. Each subscruber adds > >cryptography at metzdowd.com as an address they receive mail at. Done. > >Trivial. > > take a look at my headers and you'll see a real example. > > ---eric (No. 1 generator of stamps on the Internet) It seems like one risk for hashcash is that, when mailing lists are whitelisted, a spammer can then use the lists to amplify spam (which I think is what Richard Clayton was suggesting above). For instance, you generated a single hashcash stamp for cryptography at metzdowd.com of the same value as the stamp you generated for richard at highwayman.com. That stamp would hypothetically induce metzdowd.com to send your message to _all_ of the cryptography subscribers, all of whom have hypothetically whitelisted the list. That means that, if your message were spam, you delivered it to the whole subscriber base at very low cost. Or does hashcash only help moderated mailing lists (where it "pays" the moderator for her time)? My current impression is that it will benefit individual e-mail recipients but not help subscribers to large unmoderated mailing lists. -- Seth David Schoen | Very frankly, I am opposed to people http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | being programmed by others. http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/ | -- Fred Rogers (1928-2003), | 464 U.S. 417, 445 (1984) From justin-cypherpunks at soze.net Fri Jan 2 05:21:22 2004 From: justin-cypherpunks at soze.net (Justin) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 13:21:22 +0000 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <0BBB81D8-3CE7-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <20040102042608.GA5461@dreams.soze.net> <0BBB81D8-3CE7-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <20040102132122.GA6905@dreams.soze.net> Tim May (2004-01-02 05:46Z) wrote: > On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:26 PM, Justin wrote: > > >Do those who have previously been in the workforce, in your opinion, > >have the right to reclaim through welfare any amount up to that they've > >paid through taxes to the entity providing welfare/unemployment? Or is > >all unemployment money Pluto's fruit? > > No, as there is no "fund" that this money is in. Once taxes are paid > in, the money has gone out to crack addicts, Halliburton, welfare > whores (excuse me, "hoes"), foreign dictators like Mubarek and Sharon, > and so on. I don't think money is as easily traceable as you'd like it to be. Say Bob is self-employed and hasn't payed quarterly or is employed by others and simply doesn't withhold. If Bob's loses his job March 31, he'd pay his last year of income taxes at approximately the same time he became eligible for unemployment. Is there no time neighborhood after payment of taxes (State taxes for this discussion) within which the collection of unemployment is justified as "collection of stolen money"? (Assume Bob earned plenty of money last year and didn't withhold, so that the portion of his taxes allocated to unemployment covers at least one unemployment check. Then consider the ethics of Bob claiming just one unemployment check.) > Just because money was stolen from you doesn't give you any right to > steal from me. Suppose Bob screws up his taxes and pays too much (2003-04), and upon discovering his mistake the next year he refiles (2004-04). Does he not have any right to a refund because that money will end up being stolen from you (2005-04, presumably)? As for your 30-40 trillion estimate, It seems to me that including SS payouts would make the debt unbounded. Regardless, SS payments aren't guaranteed so considering them as debt is faulty. From timcmay at got.net Fri Jan 2 13:26:39 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 13:26:39 -0800 Subject: Alt.cypherpunks will be where I do most of my posting In-Reply-To: <1073077431.13696.8.camel@daft> References: <203EEC40-3D50-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <1073077431.13696.8.camel@daft> Message-ID: <59F76370-3D6A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 2, 2004, at 1:03 PM, someone wrote: > On Fri, 2004-01-02 at 13:18, Tim May wrote: >> Second of the items lne.com never sent to the list (that I have seen, >> 9-10 hours later). > > I saw both articles, both the originals and the reposts, on the LNE > feed. I didn't, however, get the original of either on the pro-ns feed, > but I saw the reposts on pro-ns. > > I subscribed to pro-ns after Eric M's announcement, but it seems to > miss > a lot of articles that I get from LNE. Still searching for a reliable > feed which cuts out the Australian Jackass and other noise posts. Several operators of Cypherpunks nodes have gotten tired of the topic or the running of nodes and have moved on to other things. Even those still running nodes rarely have anything to post themselves. Those remaining on the remaining nodes, or at least the ones posting, are mainly eurotrash lefties and American collectivists who just don't get it. As none of the alternatives to lne.com are what I'm looking for in a node, I expect to do most of my future posting to alt.cypherpunks. This newsgroup has been in existence for a bunch of years and periodically gets interesting threads. A few sock puppets have been spamming it, but filters are readily available to screen out the crud. The advantage of a newsgroup is that all the distribution and propagation issues are handled more or less automagically, The disadvantages are well-known, but are not much worse than with some of today's nodes (subject to long delays, dropped articles, etc.). Another advantage is that the address will be more or less known to anyone, at all times. Also, no "friendly chats" by Feebs with the operators of a site. And virtually no chance of shutting down a newsgroup. --Tim May From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Fri Jan 2 12:37:29 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:37:29 -0500 Subject: Humor: The day is coming... Message-ID: Operator: "Thank you for calling Pizza Hut. May I have your..." Customer: "Hi, I'd like to order." Operator: "May I have your NIDN first, sir?" Customer: "My National ID Number, yeah, hold on, eh, it's 6102049998-45-54610." Operator: "Thank you, Mr. Sheehan. I see you live at 1742 Meadowland Drive, and the phone number's 494-2366. Your office number over at Lincoln Insurance is 745-2302 and your cell number's 266-2566. Which number are you calling from, sir?" Customer: "Huh? I'm at home. Where d'ya get all this information?" Operator: "We're wired into the system, sir." Customer: (Sighs) "Oh, well, I'd like to order a couple of your All-Meat Special pizzas..." Operator: "I don't think that's a good idea, sir." Customer: "Whaddya mean?" Operator: "Sir, your medical records indicate that you've got very high blood pressure and extremely high cholesterol. Your National Health Care provider won't allow such an unhealthy choice." Customer: "Damn. What do you recommend, then?" Operator: "You might try our low-fat Soybean Yogurt Pizza. I'm sure you'll like it" Customer: "What makes you think I'd like something like that?" Operator: "Well, you checked out 'Gourmet Soybean Recipes' from your local library last week, sir. That's why I made the suggestion." Customer: "All right, all right. Give me two family sized ones, then. What's the damage?" Operator: "That should be plenty for you, your wife and your four kids, sir. The 'damage,' as you put it, heh, heh, comes $49.99." Customer: "Lemme give you my credit card number." Operator: "I'm sorry sir, but I'm afraid you'll have to pay in cash. Your credit card balance is over its limit." Customer: "I'll run over to the ATM and get some cash before your driver gets here." Operator: "That won't work either, sir. Your checking account's overdrawn." Customer: "Never mind. Just send the pizzas. I'll have the cash ready. How long will it take?" Operator: "We're running a little behind, sir. It'll be about 45 minutes, sir. If you're in a hurry you might want to pick 'em up while you're out getting the cash, but carrying pizzas on a motorcycle can be a little awkward." Customer: "How the hell do you know I'm riding a bike?" Operator: "It says here you're in arrears on your car payments, so your car got repo'ed. But your Harley's paid up, so I just assumed that you'd be using it." Customer: "@#%/$@&?#!&?#!" Operator: "I'd advise watching your language, sir. You've already got a July 2006 conviction for cussing out a cop." Customer: (Speechless) Operator: "Will there be anything else, sir?" Customer: "No, nothing. oh, yeah, don't forget the two free liters of Coke your ad says I get with the pizzas." Operator: "I'm sorry sir, but our ad's exclusionary clause prevents us from offering free soda to diabetics. From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Fri Jan 2 13:58:21 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 16:58:21 -0500 Subject: Education Be For Whitey Message-ID: Nah nah Variola...I don't think you're getting me here. Or maybe you are... The problem with inner city school systems where there are large numbers of african american students are, first of all, with notable exceptions (ie, some areas around Atlanta, St Albans Queens, etc...) crime rates are high, and African American students, on average, seem to be 'problems' more than Asians or Jewish kids (certainly), and probably more than whites. The next problem, and here is where the notion of "storage" comes in, is that administrators in those districts do practically ZERO to keep disruptive, dangerous students out of the classrooms. They also seem to feel that if reasonable standards of behavior were applied throughout these districts, "all the bad kids would end up on the streets", which is true. Meanwhile, good black students must therefore tolerate high numbers of disruptive, dangerous, and armed delinquents in the schools, and so classes begin to turn into baby-sitting sessions. All of this pretty much comes from tolerating bad behavior, because "they" can't help themselves. What I'm saying is that, as long as there are public schools (and I still think public schooling could be a good idea, albeit in a highly modified form), they need to be completely color blind in the standards, and damn the consequences to society at large. What they'll find is that a suprising number of African Americans will rise to the challenge, and do as well in college as other ethnic groups. Now if you're saying that public schools shouldn't even exist...well...OK, whatever. But as long as they DO exist, its best we run them in a way where they are what they are supposed to be. And if they're supposed to be storage facilities, then put gaurds and watercannon into armories and send the Scoops around to collect up the "students" off the streets every morning. -TD >From: "Major Variola (ret)" >To: "cypherpunks at lne.com" >Subject: RE: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey >Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 08:34:03 -0800 > >At 11:51 AM 1/1/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: > >"Stay In School!" > > > >In other words, schools keep the crime rates down, as is a well-known > >statistic. They are basically storage facilities. For real schools we >white > >folks with $$$ can move out to the suburbs or send our kids to private > >school. > >Right. And the value of an uneducated result of an unaborted fuck 18 >years ago >is so useful that schooling is unnecessary, just part of the Man (tm) >keeping the People (tm) down. >Ayup. > >Plenty of grubs to be dug if that's what you prefer. > >The rest of us prefer personal capitalism, ie investment, ie education. > >There's a reason the Jews and Asians (etc) suceed and other --often more >fluent-- cultures don't, and it has to do with the value some cultures >put on education. > >The truth will set you free, or not. Your choice. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com From rah at shipwright.com Fri Jan 2 14:00:21 2004 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 17:00:21 -0500 Subject: Alt.cypherpunks will be where I do most of my posting In-Reply-To: <59F76370-3D6A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <203EEC40-3D50-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <1073077431.13696.8.camel@daft> <59F76370-3D6A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: Okay... At a time like this, I might as well trot out the Tim May Google-Stalk URL so everyone can get the full treatment...: (timcmayatgotdotnet doesn't work because it misses the earlier address, but a "Tim May" in the author field does enough...) Thanks for all the fish. Thanks, Eric! Cheers, RAH (Who's not sure he wants to subscribe to, much less run a cypherpunk node either) -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 17:07:52 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:07:52 -0800 Subject: Education Be For Whitey Message-ID: <3FF615E8.D8DD01B0@cdc.gov> At 04:58 PM 1/2/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >Nah nah Variola...I don't think you're getting me here. Or maybe you are... We're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the importance of culture in valuing education, and how important education (aka personal capitalism) is. You're talking about different things -schools not removing disruptives, and differences in this policy in poor districts. >Now if you're saying that public schools shouldn't even exist...well...OK, >whatever. I don't know where you got that from, unless you're simply applying libertarian ideals (albeit a reasonable extrapolation for me). I would destroy publicly administered schools tomorrow, and put the money into competitive private schools, aka "vouchers". In the long term libertarian utopia, govt isn't involved in funding (even lower) education of course, but I would put that last on my list of reforms, and note that eventually education can be funded in other ways. In the short term, no govt employee should teach; a few govt accountants can write the vouchers. They shouldn't teach because of 1. conflict of interest (in teaching history, civics) 2. govt shouldn't be in the business of running schools, even if taxpayers continue to fund it 3. govt (and uncompetitive school bureaucracy) is inefficient whatever it does 4. govt curricula are swayed by politics, whereas with vouchers you can decide how you want Columbus et al. portrayed. (This distinct from 1.) 5. 1st amendment conflicts (ie compelled speech, compelled reading) Obviously religious curricula cannot be payed for by vouchers. And practically, the state would have to assure that vouchers paid are getting something for their money, esp. for home-schoolers, who should get voucher $ too. That doesn't mean a fixed curricula, just that you are literate and numerate by a reasonable age. From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 2 17:51:05 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:51:05 -0800 Subject: Sources and Sinks Message-ID: <3FF62009.65A0E833@cdc.gov> At 08:07 AM 1/2/04 -0500, Michael Kalus wrote: > >And how much money does she get back by services? Say: >Homelandsecurity? Put the crack pipe down, Michael. Colonial empires need fatherland security when the conquered start sending feedback. Moral states bordered by Mexico, Canada and oceans don't even need a standing army a tenth of the size of the US's at any point in the last 100 years. And strict libertarians do accept taxation for police & defense, little else. Not progressively increasing taxes, not punitive taxes, but the (only) legit function of government is protecting against coercion (incl. fraud & pollution). Some (currently small) fraction of police work / law actually does this. From timcmay at got.net Fri Jan 2 20:59:41 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 20:59:41 -0800 Subject: Alt.cypherpunks will be where I do most of my posting In-Reply-To: References: <203EEC40-3D50-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <1073077431.13696.8.camel@daft> <59F76370-3D6A-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2004, at 2:00 PM, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Okay... At a time like this, I might as well trot out the Tim May > Google-Stalk URL so everyone can get the full treatment...: > > -8&as_uauthors=Tim%20May&lr=lang_en&num=100&hl=en> > > (timcmayatgotdotnet doesn't work because it misses the earlier > address, but > a "Tim May" in the author field does enough...) > > Thanks for all the fish. > I saw your silly stalking, your incorrect comments about Krakatoa. Someday you may learn that content matters more than your "listen up, boys and girls" and "milk ran out my nose" sort of patter. Then you may find actual economic success, no longer dependent on your wife to support you. Consider that CPUs have gotten 10 times faster than when you started yammering about "digital bearer instruments" and general programming tools have gotten at least a couple of times better. If you can't implement what you have been yammering about with this amount of CPU power and tools, but instead think you need to raise $$$$ to hire a few programmers and have a company, you are clearly smoking herb. Haskell running on 4 GHz of processor(s) gives you vastly more power than any 10 programmers had several years ago. Get on with it, or give up. Your nattering about "e$" and "Philodex" and "Digital Bearer Instruments" is getting really, really old. --Tim May From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Fri Jan 2 19:41:31 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 22:41:31 -0500 Subject: Education Be For Whitey Message-ID: Ah. Well, again no argument here. As for Asians in America, let's just say I can be considered an expert on that subject. No doubt the difference in success rate between Asians (and not just Asian Americans, but fresh-off-the-boat Chinese or Vietnamese) and blacks has become conspicuous in recent years, and I agree says a lot about what ISN'T being done, or taken advantage of in the US by some groups. And until the Liberatarian utopia you speak of comes to pass, I still have the naivety to attempt discussing what kind of system (and realistically reachable from today's world) might actually lift as many blacks and white trailer trash out of their ghettos (in whatever form) and back into the workforce... I'd argue that this isn't statist per se, as the state will continue to exist for at least a little while longer. Of course, it might be argued that any attempt at reforming the state is inherently statist, but I'm not convinced that a cataclysmic meltdown is necessary. It seems to me only reasonable to attempt to make things better, while the inevitable unfolds, if it will. Which brings me to a sideswipe at the vehement anti-statists on the board...if something like crypto-anarchy is ultimately inevitable, then why bother "outing" the statists? Instead, to further the anti-state goals, it might actually be far more expedient to encourage said statists in their use and proliferation of strong crypto, thereby speeding the inevitable through the very same vectors that seek to delay it. Meanwhile, why not at least try to match the social 1st and 2nd derivatives so to as minimize the bloodbath that could occur if things unfolded badly? Call this back-handed optimism if you will. -TD >From: "Major Variola (ret)" >To: "cypherpunks at lne.com" >Subject: Re: Education Be For Whitey >Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:07:52 -0800 > >At 04:58 PM 1/2/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: > >Nah nah Variola...I don't think you're getting me here. Or maybe you >are... > >We're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the >importance >of culture in valuing education, and how important education (aka >personal capitalism) >is. > >You're talking about different things -schools not removing disruptives, >and >differences in this policy in poor districts. > > >Now if you're saying that public schools shouldn't even >exist...well...OK, > >whatever. > >I don't know where you got that from, unless you're simply applying >libertarian >ideals (albeit a reasonable extrapolation for me). I would destroy >publicly administered >schools tomorrow, and put the money into competitive private schools, >aka >"vouchers". > >In the long term libertarian utopia, govt isn't involved in funding >(even lower) education of course, but I would put that last on my list >of reforms, and note >that eventually education can be funded in other ways. > >In the short term, no govt employee should teach; a >few govt accountants can write the vouchers. They shouldn't teach >because of >1. conflict of interest (in teaching history, civics) >2. govt shouldn't be in the business of running schools, even if >taxpayers continue to >fund it >3. govt (and uncompetitive school bureaucracy) is inefficient whatever >it does >4. govt curricula are swayed by politics, whereas with vouchers you can >decide how you want Columbus et al. portrayed. (This distinct from 1.) >5. 1st amendment conflicts (ie compelled speech, compelled reading) > >Obviously religious curricula cannot be payed for by vouchers. > >And practically, the state would have to assure that vouchers paid >are getting something for their money, esp. for home-schoolers, who >should get voucher $ too. That doesn't mean a fixed curricula, just >that you are literate and numerate by a reasonable age. _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Jan 2 23:19:32 2004 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 23:19:32 -0800 Subject: Alt.cypherpunks will be where I do most of my posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FF5FC84.16509.17A19C09@localhost> -- On 2 Jan 2004 at 20:59, Tim May wrote: > Haskell running on 4 GHz of processor(s) gives you vastly > more power than any 10 programmers had several years ago. It is not clear to me that Haskell is useful for producing programs that are actually useful to end users. Sure you can produce a prototype in nothing flat, but it seems to me that as with complex SQL expressions, it is very easy to produce Haskell expressions that evaluate several billion times slower than they should when the program starts handling a large number of users with a large number of transactions. And to get back to the topic of this thread. I cannot see anything but random deranged crap in alt.cypherpunks -- maybe I need to adjust my filters, but there does not seem to be any signal in the noise. Of course I can only see the signal on this list, because over the years I have developed some heavy filtering. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG YQb62yf0QPQBkz/KNVrytafzyDVHcu0QnrRZFjtk 4VZDFkJI1qFJz5kkRQ3B5fSrPDaexC02LM8G4xKMG From mkalus at thedarkerside.to Sat Jan 3 05:09:18 2004 From: mkalus at thedarkerside.to (Michael Kalus) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:09:18 -0500 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <09E34BE8-3DEE-11D8-B1A2-000A95B18462@thedarkerside.to> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > Ever heard of toll roads? Yes, those things you drive on and pay for > their > use. They work quite well in many of the socialist European countries > so > they ought to work in the land of the free too. > Yes, the way this usually works is that the government builds the road, then sells it to a private company for some money and then the upkeep is handled by the company. It is rather seldom that someone builds a road for a business venture. > Where there is no governmental police force, their is demand for > private enforcement. And you know what? They regularly do their jobs > better than the police. Of course there is no oversight body, so if they use "excessive force" well, It's all part of doing business and after all they didn't smash YOUR skull so what do you care, right? > >> The business though benefits extremly from the infrastructure that is >> build with taxes. Plus a lot of companies can exempt even more money, >> so in essence a lot of companies don't pay a dime in taxes. > > Show me a company that doesn't pay a dime in taxes, please, make it one > that actually has employees and does something useful and makes profit. > Amuse me and try it out. I don't have a link ready right now, but there were several US corporations as well as some in Germany who did NOT pay any taxes for the past couple of years because of either "breaks" they got so not to leave, OR because they posted such high losses that they did not post any profit on the books, thus not pay any taxes. > >>> Alice, an engineer or pharmacist or perhaps a small business owner, >>> works between 40% and 70% of her time to pay money into government. >> >> And how much money does she get back by services? Say: >> Homelandsecurity? Say: Roadconstruction? etc.? > > A lot less than she would have to pay for those services in a free > society. This is very easy to determine from the fact that a big part > of > tax money goes into one social welfare scheme or another. > Assuming right now that you are living in Finland, i am wondering why you not move into the land of the free and do it without any social net? > Take that and in addition remember that goverments tend to do things > inefficiently (yes, that road building and security and other stuff > tend > to cost more than they'd have to) and that he gets a lot of 'services' > that have purely negative value to him (say tariffs, drug laws, > government > help monopolies [AMA is first to come to mind here], etc). > I guess it depends on which study you look. If the Army / Homeland security costs more when run by the government than when run by private firms the US Army should be highly efficent. After all WITHOUT private contractors none of the personell would be fed (that is done by a french catering company), without the likes of Halliburton and such the US Army would not be in Iraq, the support is pretty much "outsourced" for greater "efficency" and "cost saving". Of course companies tend to overcharge quite a huge amount, but hey, I am sure at the end they are still cheaper, right? What you fail to realize is that "you get what you pay for" and why would I want a company cut corners in things like social services, Security (i.e. police) or any other of these services only to save a buck or two? If that is the mentality no wonder companies attach a value to human life and don't really care if you burn up in your car or get killed as long as it is cheaper than to fix a problem. I guess that is also a reason why insurance rates for SUVs aren't up, while smaller cars are getting hit (Want to know why? Because if you die it is a one time payment and the insurance companies are off the hook. If you're just insured though, they pay a lot more to get you "fixed" again. SUVs tend to kill more people than maime them, thus by their logic they are cheaper). But all of you who seem to think that social services et al, should be run on a profit maximiation basis, tell me this: How much are you worth in Dollars and cents (or Euros)? I would like to know how much you think you are worth to your friends, family, kids, spouses etc.? Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP/a/DmlCnxcrW2uuEQIkXACcC5x0ac8TJ+elTCJThFZlWwMnyQ0AoKkf Vy5kyDyc9Hq/uCDyOCgCUF6Z =e5W6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mv at cdc.gov Sat Jan 3 09:23:36 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 09:23:36 -0800 Subject: Education Be For Whitey Message-ID: <3FF6FA98.EE6DA44E@cdc.gov> At 10:41 PM 1/2/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >And until the Liberatarian utopia you speak of comes to pass, One could close all public schools and voucher tomorrow. >I still have >the naivety to attempt discussing what kind of system (and realistically >reachable from today's world) might actually lift as many blacks and white >trailer trash out of their ghettos (in whatever form) and back into the >workforce... Simple. Take the infants and put them with parents who subscribe to a culture that values education and work. Then even govt schools won't damage them enought to crush them. From mv at cdc.gov Sat Jan 3 09:29:49 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 09:29:49 -0800 Subject: DoS-ing fatherland goons Message-ID: <3FF6FC0D.A61C73DB@cdc.gov> At 11:01 AM 1/3/04 +0100, privacy.at Anonymous Remailer wrote: >- Orchestrated telephone conversations using codewords ("thw worm will meet the apple on monday") > >- Ordering tens of almanacs, etc. WiFi-injected encrypted messages to select TLDs on the List (and beyond --Indonesia suffices). Got Chatter? From mv at cdc.gov Sat Jan 3 09:34:54 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 09:34:54 -0800 Subject: If you drive, you're a slave (Re: Sources and Sinks) Message-ID: <3FF6FD3D.C60DB760@cdc.gov> At 08:09 AM 1/3/04 -0500, Michael Kalus wrote: >Yes, the way this usually works is that the government builds the road, >then sells it to a private company for some money and then the upkeep >is handled by the company. > >It is rather seldom that someone builds a road for a business venture. Come visit SoCal some time. I'll show you some roads built as investments. Many of them. Sometimes, if they fail as investments ("hey, we're losing money, lets raise tolls"), the investors will sell to the govt ---the opposite of your assertion. But it shouldn't matter to a socialist like you: if I've driven on a taxpayer road, I'm therefore a slave to anyone's (or everyone's) 's need. Anyone who can convince a politicowhore to give them a slice, that is. From timcmay at got.net Sat Jan 3 10:34:13 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:34:13 -0800 Subject: Education Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <3FF6FA98.EE6DA44E@cdc.gov> References: <3FF6FA98.EE6DA44E@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <6D9D8E31-3E1B-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:23 AM, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > At 10:41 PM 1/2/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >> And until the Liberatarian utopia you speak of comes to pass, > > One could close all public schools and voucher tomorrow. I came up with a plan which is workable immediately and which does not require substantive changes: Put a partition down the middle of a school building. One side is "Blue," the other side is "Red." Blue and Red have different academic orientations, different goals. What the goals are and how they are set might arise in different ways, e.g., by a vote of parents, or the backgrounds of the teachers in each, and so on. Not so important. What is important is what follows. As the Blue and Red sides evolve, with perhaps one focusing on academic excellence and the other on "social skills," parents could move their children between the sides (say, on a semester by semester basis, to reduce thrashing). As the sizes of the Blue and Red sizes change, the partition would be moved. This gives "policy choice" within a particular school building, which is a lot less expensive than busing students long distances to get to "magnet" schools (science, performing arts, crack dealing, etc.). --Tim May "They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police state From mixmaster at remailer.privacy.at Sat Jan 3 02:01:45 2004 From: mixmaster at remailer.privacy.at (privacy.at Anonymous Remailer) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:01:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: DoS-ing fatherland goons Message-ID: If we put aside the probable and obvious cause for disrupting the air traffic - namely, introduction of the permanent emergency state (in the future 2-3% of all flights may be affected - small price for maintaining the power), I wonder what are the logistics of injecting false information into the snooping systems. Most of those are automated and prone to false alarms. Few ideas: - Orchestrated credit card purchases under proper "suspicious" conditions ("travelling without husband" - check today's news). - No shows at US-bound flights. Extremely efficient use of economy class fare. - Orchestrated telephone conversations using codewords ("thw worm will meet the apple on monday") - Ordering tens of almanacs, etc. Some simple scanning around these ports will reveal what is effective and what is not. Bearing in mind that basic TCP/IP protocols, servers and clients, after years of fixing, are still vulnerable to new attacs I doubt that pinheads on the TLA payrolls will be able to fix theirs. The beauty of these attacks is that they can be launched by any entity - from ragheads to governments, and next to impossible to trace if done properly. From kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 3 09:34:30 2004 From: kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com (John Kelsey) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 12:34:30 -0500 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism In-Reply-To: <5226A355-3BD2-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <15c.2a35ab04.2d245176@aol.com> <15c.2a35ab04.2d245176@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040103120853.046baca0@pop.ix.netcom.com> At 12:45 PM 12/31/03 -0800, Tim May wrote: ... >I don't claim this is a "right" implicit in the fabric of space-time, or >handed down by Moloch or YHWH or some other supernatural myth-figure. >Rather, societies which have taken money from workers to give to others to >sit at home and breed or eat Doritos while watching Oprah have failed. Well, western democracies seem to be surviving okay while maintaining big social welfare states. This looks like an efficiency issue to me; it's basically sucking some fraction of the total production of the society off the top to maintain a welfare state, but doesn't seem to be sucking the whole system down. Presumably this works out only to the extent that most people can't or won't go on welfare. And the thing that currently looks like it *might* suck currently successful societies down is taxpayer-financed pension schemes for everyone who gets old. In that case, the size of the pool of recipients is growing very quickly, for demographic reasons that don't seem possible to change. Also, while really poor people often don't don't vote and aren't elloquent or effective at demanding increases to their benefits, people close to retirement age (50s) are at the peak of their political power, vote in large numbers, and are quite good at demanding expanded benefits without sounding like welfare queens demanding more money for crack and beer. (Farmers are also really good at this, but they aren't numerous enough to be more than a pinprick to the taxpayers.) The "no work, no eat" principle has a problem here, too. Most of the soon-to-retire *have* worked, and done so under a "bargain" that promised them some benefits at retirement in exchange for what they were paying in. Millions of people are convinced they have those benefits coming. These people include productive workers from every area of life, and aren't generally people it's easy to dismiss as parasites. Whether you've worked your whole life as a garbage collector or as an electrical engineer, you're likely to expect those social security checks to roll in on schedule, along with medicare, the new prescription drug benefit, and any number of other goodies. ... >--Tim May --John Kelsey, kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com PGP: FA48 3237 9AD5 30AC EEDD BBC8 2A80 6948 4CAA F259 From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Jan 3 13:50:02 2004 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:50:02 -0800 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <09E34BE8-3DEE-11D8-B1A2-000A95B18462@thedarkerside.to> References: Message-ID: <3FF6C88A.8197.1ABE94BC@localhost> -- On 3 Jan 2004 at 8:09, Michael Kalus wrote: > Yes, the way this usually works is that the government builds > the road, then sells it to a private company for some money > and then the upkeep is handled by the company. > > It is rather seldom that someone builds a road for a business > venture. Used to happen all the time, before governments became so intrusive. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG r2w6MRt6gtWxRchZBu1JrSIiuDCvgG7FBMjxy3Vx 4tEo5v7x66WtikBVLHafpzaGm84hGQZvHy0qBcgKn From timcmay at got.net Sat Jan 3 16:06:35 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:06:35 -0800 Subject: So many statists In-Reply-To: <1073170867.1160.59.camel@nettie> References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <09E34BE8-3DEE-11D8-B1A2-000A95B18462@thedarkerside.to> <1073170867.1160.59.camel@nettie> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2004, at 3:01 PM, bgt wrote: > > (Jeez, I just recently got back onto this list after a several-year > hiatus. How the hell did so many statists ever get the idea that > ubiquitous cryptography would ever further their goals? Or are they > just here to distract us with statism vs liberty type political > debates so we can't get any real work done??) > Most of those now posting (and maybe most of those subscribed, but I am only speculating) are various eurotrash lefties and anti-globalist activists who decided that "crypto is cool" after their anti-corporate, anti-choice rallies in Seattle, Milano, and other cities shut down by the Yippie marches and barricades. I assume they figured that since they were using PGP to communicate with their fellow anti-capitalists, that crypto must be cool (I'm not sure if they favor the negro term, "bad," or the traditional term, "good," so I'll use the term of my generation, "cool.") Are they confused? Yep. Welcome to the Gen X and Gen Y (and soon) the Gen Z world. Crypto be bad, dog! This nigga be bouncin'! I'm actually glad to see that Cypherpunks nodes are winding down, that we no longer have monthly meetings, and that the Movement is ending. Better that than to see it hijacked by the eurotrash lefties, New York collectivists, and anti-globalist warriors against free trade. --Tim May, Corralitos, California Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 13:19:25 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 16:19:25 -0500 Subject: School of the future Message-ID: Tim May wrote... "Put a partition down the middle of a school building. One side is "Blue," the other side is "Red." " Shit. This sounds a lot like my "school of the future" idea. Basically, in the inner cities the armories are converted into "schools", with a giant partition in the middle. On one side are self-learning stations and a small number of instructors. Kids can choose to go to this side of the partition whenever they want, or never. (BUT school is mandatory from 12 to 22, and big Soylent Green-type scoops scoop up the students every morning and dump them into the school.) The other side of the partition is basically a giant gymnasium. Guards with watercannon are stationed in the balcony to break up fights. At graduation, there's a trap door on the gymnasium side, that opens onto a slide leading directly to Rikers. In the extended version, the "schools" are located out in a gulag, and students live there from ages 10 to 24. There are two jobs in the schools, one is breaking rocks, which are imported from other schools, the other is making rocks in concrete molds, which are exported. Classrooms consist of a teacher behind a plexiglass wall, giving lessons over a loudspeaker that's cranked far higher than any kid could scream or yell. Thus, classroom noise is basically eliminated as a practical concern (the teacher might also have access to watercannon behind the plexiglass wall). As for teachers, the source is clear: those that fail to graduate must teach for a period of 10 to 15 years. -TD >From: Tim May >To: cypherpunks at lne.com >Subject: Re: Education Be For Whitey >Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:34:13 -0800 > >On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:23 AM, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >>At 10:41 PM 1/2/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >>>And until the Liberatarian utopia you speak of comes to pass, >> >>One could close all public schools and voucher tomorrow. > >I came up with a plan which is workable immediately and which does not >require substantive changes: > >Put a partition down the middle of a school building. One side is "Blue," >the other side is "Red." > >Blue and Red have different academic orientations, different goals. What >the goals are and how they are set might arise in different ways, e.g., by >a vote of parents, or the backgrounds of the teachers in each, and so on. >Not so important. What is important is what follows. > > >As the Blue and Red sides evolve, with perhaps one focusing on academic >excellence and the other on "social skills," parents could move their >children between the sides (say, on a semester by semester basis, to reduce >thrashing). As the sizes of the Blue and Red sizes change, the partition >would be moved. > > >This gives "policy choice" within a particular school building, which is a >lot less expensive than busing students long distances to get to "magnet" >schools (science, performing arts, crack dealing, etc.). > > >--Tim May >"They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and >it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read >it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote." >--Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the USA-PATRIOT Bill >before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police state _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our limited-time introductory offer for dial-up Internet access. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From bgt at chrootlabs.org Sat Jan 3 15:01:07 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 17:01:07 -0600 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <09E34BE8-3DEE-11D8-B1A2-000A95B18462@thedarkerside.to> References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <09E34BE8-3DEE-11D8-B1A2-000A95B18462@thedarkerside.to> Message-ID: <1073170867.1160.59.camel@nettie> On Sat, 2004-01-03 at 07:09, Michael Kalus wrote: > > Where there is no governmental police force, their is demand for > > private enforcement. And you know what? They regularly do their jobs > > better than the police. > > Of course there is no oversight body, so if they use "excessive force" > well, It's all part of doing business and after all they didn't smash > YOUR skull so what do you care, right? The only necessary "oversight body" is the courts. Both public and private police (should) operate under the Rule of Law just like everyone else. As with the public police, if private police have public perception problems related to excessive force, abuse of power, or whatever, they may opt to use a third-party interest to do "self-policing" by fining, firing, etc (much like pro sports organizations do... contractually). This is strictly a business management decision however, the only "legal" oversight should be the court. Police (public or private) should be judged and punished (in the legal sense) in the same way any other citizen is. > > Show me a company that doesn't pay a dime in taxes, please, make it one > > that actually has employees and does something useful and makes profit. > > Amuse me and try it out. > > I don't have a link ready right now, but there were several US > corporations as well as some in Germany who did NOT pay any taxes for > the past couple of years because of either "breaks" they got so not to > leave, OR because they posted such high losses that they did not post > any profit on the books, thus not pay any taxes. Purely for the sake of argument, even if this is correct (which I'm not conceding), a company that is truly in business to make a profit by doing something useful (creating a product, providing a useful service, etc) pays employees who pay taxes, pays employee payroll taxes, pays shareholders who pay taxes, and produces something (product or service) which is almost always taxed, usually in several ways. Just because a company does not pay an income tax DOES NOT mean it isn't heavily taxed in other direct and indirect ways. > But all of you who seem to think that social services et al, should be > run on a profit maximiation basis, tell me this: How much are you worth > in Dollars and cents (or Euros)? I would like to know how much you > think you are worth to your friends, family, kids, spouses etc.? I'm not sure what that's got to do with it. (We're talking about "essential social services" meaning services designed to protect lives, right?) How I value my life is measured by exactly what I will do to protect and enhance my life. I am worth to other people exactly what they would do /voluntarily/ to protect/enhance my life. What that's got to do with whether these services should be privatized or not I'm not sure. Unless you're arguing that (by that definition) I'm not worth very much to very many other people, and since that leaves the responsibility for my life squarely on my own shoulders (and on the shoulders of people I voluntarily engage to start caring about me!). Well, that's the only fair way... coercing other people to care for and by extension pay for my own welfare is immoral and evil. If you care so much for everyone else's welfare, there's plenty of charities you can voluntarily donate your money to that will be happy to look after everyone else. Oh, most people are selfish and wouldn't /voluntarily/ give 30-50% of their money away to total strangers (favoring their own families and close friends instead)? Then please explain how it's moral to FORCE them! (Jeez, I just recently got back onto this list after a several-year hiatus. How the hell did so many statists ever get the idea that ubiquitous cryptography would ever further their goals? Or are they just here to distract us with statism vs liberty type political debates so we can't get any real work done??) --bgt From jya at pipeline.com Sat Jan 3 20:28:31 2004 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 20:28:31 -0800 Subject: So many statists In-Reply-To: References: <1073170867.1160.59.camel@nettie> <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <09E34BE8-3DEE-11D8-B1A2-000A95B18462@thedarkerside.to> <1073170867.1160.59.camel@nettie> Message-ID: Tim has become so proprietary about cypherpunks it's strange that he's never operated a node himself, or underwritten all of them in the generous spirit of John Gilmore. Maybe Tim has been underwriting them quietly and that accounts for his obnoxious bitching when the discourse doesn't go the way he wants it -- he being a believer in getting good head for his money, or else, plonk the hoes. Drug dealers work the same model, as do pimps, and bandits, and big-shit right-wing thugs CEOs, none of whom love the urchins who drain their pickles, generate their wealth, instead they yarp the Calvinist creed that economic success equates with superior human value, that if you're not wealthy you're not of much account, rather than admit the evidence that the opposite is most often true, that wealthy people are some of the dumbest people on earth, fountainheads of blather, and got to have obsequious minions -- usually (low) paid, but if not then brainwashed -- on hand at all times to listen to their cantankerous tommyrot fantasies ever-generated to avoid pondering the consequences of their brutish exploitation. Tim repeatedly abandons cyperpunks when one of his spews gets dissed. Goes elsewhere looking for admirers or newbies to pound, and if pounded back, comes back to cypherpunks to plead to ye old tyme succor, parading his past accomplishments to see who'll applaud. Same same same comes out of idlers worldwide, the wealthy ones the most so. But even welfare cheats talk Tim's talk, rather Tim whines like welfare cheats, both sharing contempt for people like themselves, but hoping by blaming others their own shiftlessness will be overlooked. There are wealthy people who don't suffer Tim's conceited warped negativizing narcissism. Some of them have supported cypherpunks with far more than derivative, endlessly recycled opinions and braggardy. True, these goodhearts are the exception among typically vile "successful" assholes, but they save the whole rotten barrel of the rich from getting what it deserves. That is why Tim fears Gilmore's courage, envy. From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 18:04:36 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 21:04:36 -0500 Subject: So many statists...uh, who gives a crap? Message-ID: Tim May wrote... "I assume they figured that since they were using PGP to communicate with their fellow anti-capitalists, that crypto must be cool" Here's the question Tyler Durden has for you. Which is more important...annhiliation of the state, or getting a bunch of list subscribers to agree that annhiation of the state is a good thing? You yourself have claimed to be something of a "techno determinist". In other words, you've made a good case that Strong crypto will eventually lead to collapse of the state...people's BELIEF about the implications of strong crypto are largely irrelevant. "Eurotrash", "New York Collectivists" and so on should be given nice, big fat pat on the backs, so long as this will encourage proliferation of strong crypto. Who gives a crap what people BELIEVE? In fact, I'd argue that, if your beliefs prove to be correct, then "making people see the implications of strong crypto" is ultimately probably a bad thing...not everyone wants to wreck the state. Some people WANT to be able to boss others around (or at least want someone else to be doing this). Hell, probably most human beings in 2003 are in this category. -TD Me? I like the Protestant reformation analogy: I'm not convinced strong crypto will necessarily lead to destruction of the state, just like the reformation didn't lead to destruction of the Catholic church. However, in the long run, whatever emerges has got to be better than what we've got today. >From: Tim May >To: cypherpunks at lne.com >Subject: So many statists >Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:06:35 -0800 > >On Jan 3, 2004, at 3:01 PM, bgt wrote: >> >>(Jeez, I just recently got back onto this list after a several-year >>hiatus. How the hell did so many statists ever get the idea that >>ubiquitous cryptography would ever further their goals? Or are they >>just here to distract us with statism vs liberty type political >>debates so we can't get any real work done??) >> > >Most of those now posting (and maybe most of those subscribed, but I am >only speculating) are various eurotrash lefties and anti-globalist >activists who decided that "crypto is cool" after their anti-corporate, >anti-choice rallies in Seattle, Milano, and other cities shut down by the >Yippie marches and barricades. I assume they figured that since they were >using PGP to communicate with their fellow anti-capitalists, that crypto >must be cool (I'm not sure if they favor the negro term, "bad," or the >traditional term, "good," so I'll use the term of my generation, "cool.") > >Are they confused? Yep. > >Welcome to the Gen X and Gen Y (and soon) the Gen Z world. Crypto be bad, >dog! This nigga be bouncin'! > >I'm actually glad to see that Cypherpunks nodes are winding down, that we >no longer have monthly meetings, and that the Movement is ending. Better >that than to see it hijacked by the eurotrash lefties, New York >collectivists, and anti-globalist warriors against free trade. > > >--Tim May, Corralitos, California >Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; >perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." >--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From sfurlong at acmenet.net Sat Jan 3 20:10:21 2004 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: 03 Jan 2004 23:10:21 -0500 Subject: Alt.cypherpunks will be where I do most of my posting In-Reply-To: <3FF5FC84.16509.17A19C09@localhost> References: <3FF5FC84.16509.17A19C09@localhost> Message-ID: <1073189421.17524.3.camel@daft> On Sat, 2004-01-03 at 02:19, James A. Donald wrote: > And to get back to the topic of this thread. I cannot see > anything but random deranged crap in alt.cypherpunks -- maybe I > need to adjust my filters, but there does not seem to be any > signal in the noise. I don't see anything on alt.cypherpunks, except for a test message I put up a couple of days ago. Alas, my ISP, having been bought out recently, has become unresponsive. (Yah, I know there are work-arounds for getting newsgroups which are not carried by your ISP, but they are _work_-arounds, which involve work, which involves time, which I have only in short supply.) From s.schear at comcast.net Sun Jan 4 00:18:51 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 00:18:51 -0800 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <3FF6C88A.8197.1ABE94BC@localhost> References: <3FF6C88A.8197.1ABE94BC@localhost> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040104001158.05c66370@mail.comcast.net> At 01:50 PM 1/3/2004, James A. Donald wrote: > -- >On 3 Jan 2004 at 8:09, Michael Kalus wrote: > > Yes, the way this usually works is that the government builds > > the road, then sells it to a private company for some money > > and then the upkeep is handled by the company. > > > > It is rather seldom that someone builds a road for a business > > venture. > >Used to happen all the time, before governments became so >intrusive. In the U.S. government involvement in road, bridge, railroad and canal building really got its start during the early- to mid-1800s. The Whig Party's platform was called, by Clay, the American System. Today we call it mercantilism. The Whigs pushed their internal improvements agenda (building unneeded and/or grossly overpriced roads, bridges or canals supplied by political contributors) across all the states in the early 1800s. Everywhere it was a disaster bankrupting several. So much so that by 1850 all state constitutions banned internal improvement activities. This was the downfall of the Whigs, but many of its leaders resurfaced in the Republican party whose first presidential candidate was Lincoln. steve From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Sun Jan 4 00:08:30 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 03:08:30 -0500 Subject: Sources and Sinks Message-ID: From: bgt > On Sat, 2004-01-03 at 07:09, Michael Kalus wrote: > > > > Where there is no governmental police force, their is demand for > > > private enforcement. And you know what? They regularly do their jobs > > > better than the police. > > > > Of course there is no oversight body, so if they use "excessive force" > > well, It's all part of doing business and after all they didn't smash > > YOUR skull so what do you care, right? > > The only necessary "oversight body" is the courts. Both public and > private police (should) operate under the Rule of Law just like everyone > else. As with the public police, if private police have public > perception problems related to excessive force, abuse of power, or > whatever, they may opt to use a third-party interest to do > "self-policing" by fining, firing, etc (much like pro sports > organizations do... contractually). This is strictly a business > management decision however, the only "legal" oversight should be > the court. Police (public or private) should be judged and punished > (in the legal sense) in the same way any other citizen is. http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm Seton Hall Constitutional L.J. 2001, 685 ARE COPS CONSTITUTIONAL? Roger Roots* ABSTRACT Police work is often lionized by jurists and scholars who claim to employ "textualist" and "originalist" methods of constitutional interpretation. Yet professional police were unknown to the United States in 1789, and first appeared in America almost a half-century after the Constitution's ratification. The Framers contemplated law enforcement as the duty of mostly private citizens, along with a few constables and sheriffs who could be called upon when necessary. This article marshals extensive historical and legal evidence to show that modern policing is in many ways inconsistent with the original intent of America's founding documents. The author argues that the growth of modern policing has substantially empowered the state in a way the Framers would regard as abhorrent to their foremost principles. From cpunk at lne.com Sun Jan 4 20:00:01 2004 From: cpunk at lne.com (cpunk at lne.com) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:00:01 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunks List Info Message-ID: <200401050400.i05401a4021941@slack.lne.com> Cypherpunks Mailing List Information Last updated: Oct 13, 2003 This message is also available at http://www.lne.com/cpunk Instructions on unsubscribing from the list can be found below. 0. Introduction The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing cryptography and its effect on society. It is not a moderated list (but see exceptions below) and the list operators are not responsible for the list content. Cypherpunks is a distributed mailing list. A subscriber can subscribe to one node of the list and thereby participate on the full list. Each node (called a "Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer", although they are not related to anonymous remailers) exchanges messages with the other nodes in addition to sending messages to its subscribers. A message posted to one node will be received by the list subscribers on the other nodes, and vice-versa. 1. Filtering The various CDRs follow different policies on filtering spam and to a lesser extent on modifying messages that go to/from their subscribers. Filtering is done, on nodes that do it, to reduce the huge amount of spam that the cypherpunks list is subjected to. There are three basic flavors of filtering CDRs: "raw", which send all messages to their subscribers. "cooked" CDRs try to eliminate the spam on that's on the regular list by automatically sending only messages that are from cypherpunks list subscribers (on any CDR) or people who are replying to list messages. Finally there are moderated lists, where a human moderator decides which messages from the raw list to pass on to subscribers. 2. Message Modification Message modification policy indicates what modifications, if any, beyond what is needed to operate the CDR are done (most CDRs add a tracking X-loop header on mail posted to their subscribers to prevent mail loops). Message modification usually happens on mail going in or out to each CDR's subscribers. CDRs should not modify mail that they pass from one CDR to the next, but some of them do, and others undo those modifications. 3. Privacy Privacy policy indicates if the list will allow anyone ("open"), or only list members, or no one ("private") , to retrieve the subscribers list. Note that if you post, being on a "private" list doesn't mean much, since your address is now out there. It's really only useful for keeping spammers from harvesting addresses from the list software. Digest mode indicates that the CDR supports digest mode, which is where the posts are batched up into a few large emails. Nodes that support only digest mode are noted. 4. Anonymous posting Cypherpunks encourages anonymous posting. You can use an anonymous remailer: http://www.andrebacard.com/remail.html http://anon.efga.org/Remailers http://www.gilc.org/speech/anonymous/remailer.html 5. Unsubscribing Unsubscribing from the cypherpunks list: Since the list is run from a number of different CDRs, you have to figure out which CDR you are subscribed to. If you don't remember and can't figure it out from the mail headers (hint: the top Received: line should tell you), the easiest way to unsubscribe is to send unsubscribe messages to all the CDRs listed below. How to figure out which CDR you are subscribed to: Get your mail client to show all the headers (Microsoft calls this "internet headers"). Look for the Sender or X-loop headers. The Sender will say something like "Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com". The X-loop line will say something like "X-Loop: cypherpunks at lne.com". Both of these inticate that you are subscribed to the lne.com CDR. If you were subscribed to the algebra CDR, they would have algebra.com in them. Once you have figured out which CDR you're subscribed to, look in the table below to find that CDRs unsubscribe instructions. 6. Lunatics, spammers and nut-cases "I'm subscribed to a filtering CDR yet I still see lots of junk postings". At this writing there are a few sociopaths on the cypherpunks list who are abusing the lists openness by dumping reams of propaganda on the list. The distinction between a spammer and a subscriber is nearly always very clear, but the dictinction between a subscriber who is abusing the list by posting reams of propaganda and a subscriber who is making lots of controversial posts is not clear. Therefore, we tolerate the crap. Subscribers with a low crap tolerance should check out mail filters. Procmail is a good one, although it works on Unix and Unix-like systems only. Eudora also has a capacity for filtering mail, as do many other mail readers. An example procmail recipie is below, you will of course want to make your own decisions on which (ab)users to filter. # mailing lists: # filter all cypherpunks mail into its own cypherspool folder, discarding # mail from loons. All CDRs set their From: line to 'owner-cypherpunks'. # /dev/null is unix for the trash can. :0 * ^From.*owner-cypherpunks at .* { :0: * (^From:.*ravage at ssz\.com.*|\ ^From:.*jchoate at dev.tivoli.com.*|\ ^From:.*mattd at useoz.com|\ ^From:.*proffr11 at bigpond.com|\ ^From:.*jei at cc.hut.fi) /dev/null :0: cypherspool } 7. List of current CDRs All commands are sent in the body of mail unless otherwise noted. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Algebra: Operator: Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at algebra.com Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at algebra.com Help: "help cypherpunks" to majordomo at algebra.com Posting address: cypherpunks at algebra.com Filtering policy: raw Message Modification policy: no modification Privacy policy: ??? Info: ??? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- CCC: Operator: drt at un.bewaff.net Subscription: "subscribe [password of your choice]" to cypherpunks-request at koeln.ccc.de Unsubscription: "unsubscribe " to cypherpunks-request at koeln.ccc.de Help: "help" to to cypherpunks-request at koeln.ccc.de Web site: http://koeln.ccc.de/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks Posting address: cypherpunks at koeln.ccc.de Filtering policy: This specific node drops messages bigger than 32k and every message with more than 17 recipients or just a line containing "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the subject. Digest mode: this node is digest-only NNTP: news://koeln.ccc.de/cbone.ml.cypherpunks Message Modification policy: no modification Privacy policy: ??? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Infonex: Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com Help: "help cypherpunks" to majordomo at infonex.com Posting address: cypherpunks at infonex.com Filtering policy: raw Message Modification policy: no modification Privacy policy: ??? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lne: Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at lne.com Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at lne.com Help: "help cypherpunks" to majordomo at lne.com Posting address: cypherpunks at lne.com Filtering policy: cooked Posts from all CDR subscribers & replies to threads go to lne CDR subscribers. All posts from other CDRs are forwarded to other CDRs unmodified. Message Modification policy: 1. messages are demimed (MIME attachments removed) when posted through lne or received by lne CDR subscribers 2. leading "CDR:" in subject line removed 3. "Reply-to:" removed Privacy policy: private Info: http://www.lne.com/cpunk; "info cypherpunks" to majordomo at lne.com Archive: http://archives.abditum.com/cypherpunks/index.html (thanks to Steve Furlong and Len Sassaman) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Minder: Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at minder.net Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at minder.net Help: "help" to majordomo at minder.net Posting address: cypherpunks at minder.net Filtering policy: raw Message Modification policy: no modification Privacy policy: private Info: send mail to cypherpunks-info at minder.net --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Openpgp: [openpgp seems to have dropped off the end of the world-- it doesn't return anything from sending help queries. Ericm, 8/7/01] Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to listproc at openpgp.net Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to listproc at openpgp.net Help: "help" to listproc at openpgp.net Posting address: cypherpunks at openpgp.net Filtering policy: raw Message Modification policy: no modification Privacy policy: ??? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sunder: Subscription: "subscribe" to sunder at sunder.net Unsubscription: "unsubscribe" to sunder at sunder.net Help: "help" to sunder at sunder.net Posting address: sunder at sunder.net Filtering policy: moderated Message Modification policy: ??? Privacy policy: ??? Info: ??? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pro-ns: Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at pro-ns.net Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo at pro-ns.net Help: "help cypherpunks" to majordomo at pro-ns.net Posting address: cypherpunks at pro-ns.net Filtering policy: cooked Posts from all CDR subscribers & replies to threads go to local CDR subscribers. All posts from other CDRs are forwarded to other CDRs unmodified. Message Modification policy: 1. leading "CDR:" in subject line removed 2. "Reply-to:" removed Privacy policy: private Info: http://www.pro-ns.net/cpunk From cryptomjs at eudoramail.com Mon Jan 5 02:55:54 2004 From: cryptomjs at eudoramail.com (Mark Saarelainen) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 02:55:54 -0800 Subject: Read General X on the USENET - alt.politics.org.cia ... Message-ID: Can the last remaining KGB mind win the world ... ? Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com From mv at cdc.gov Mon Jan 5 10:56:26 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret.)) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 10:56:26 -0800 Subject: copy protected "CD" lawsuit Message-ID: <3FF9B359.A8505127@cdc.gov> LONDON -- A European consumer watchdog body is suing the world's largest music companies for selling copy-protected compact discs that won't play on car stereos and computers, the Belgium-based organization said on Monday. The group, known in Dutch as Test-Aankoop and in French as Test-Achats, said it has received more than 200 complaints from consumers who objected to a technology that prevents consumers from making a back-up version on a blank disc and limits playback on certain devices. http://wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,61791,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_6 .... Note that we suggested a lawsuit based on fraud rather than denial of traditional use, some time ago. Actually, the case for denial of traditional use is lame, in our opinion. (Surely a vendor can sell whatever they want. Only its fraud to use the CD logo, since the disks don't play on to-spec players. Similar to software: you should be able to lock it in any way you can, but you can't say "runs on WinBlah" if it only runs on a subset.) Should be interesting. From mv at cdc.gov Mon Jan 5 10:58:21 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret.)) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 10:58:21 -0800 Subject: CNN "expert" confuses stenography with steganography Message-ID: <3FF9B3CD.712C0B12@cdc.gov> Just heard a CNN "expert" confuse stenography with steganography. And he still thinks Jihad, Inc websites use the latter. Doofus. From mv at cdc.gov Mon Jan 5 11:10:23 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:10:23 -0800 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism Message-ID: <3FF9B69E.82EFD075@cdc.gov> At 12:58 PM 1/5/04 -0600, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >With that evidence in hand, the employer calls them up and tells them >to be at work the next day -- or be fired. If I were the employer, I >wouldn't even give them that second chance. Motivation might be loss of training or worry over lawsuit? The state of CA was running adverts last year reminding the volk that its a felony to fake disability for worker's comp. My wife's a shrink, she has had occasion to evaluate people for mental distress (for worker's comp) caused by work. Sometimes they piggyback pre-existing problems onto their claims, sometimes people or conditions at work would screw with anyone's head. Sometimes they regard her (the examining shrink) as an adversary, sometimes a friend. I imagine same goes for visceral physicians too -though pain is as easy to fake as anguish. The technical term for faking it is 'malingering'. Some of the questions in standard written exams try to detect this, as well as the opposite, concealment. (There are times when you want to conceal a condition that you are aware of.) From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Jan 5 12:00:24 2004 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:00:24 -0800 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FF951D8.18711.24A6EBF4@localhost> -- This small step forward is ultimately a result of https. The more advanced technologies that have been a focus of discussion of this list have yet to have real effect, but I see the infrastructure that would create demand for such technologies coming into being. On 5 Jan 2004 at 11:57, sales at cheapscrips.com wrote: > We are an overseas pharmacy that is presently accepting > e-gold as our exclusive means of payment. Our prices are > substantially lower than ridiculously-high U.S. prices. In > addition: > > *We currently feature 125 drugs on our site and have access > to several thousand more. *We do not require a prescription > of any kind. *Our shipping is just $7 to anywhere in North or > South America; $9 elsewhere. > > Our homepage is located at www.cheapscrips.com > > Come check us out! by the way, many of their drugs are radically cheaper. Assuming they are legitimate, they would be getting it from some country that does not pay too much attention to patents, registered trademarks, and the like. Regulatory arbitrage, and a privately issued currency. It is well short of the high expectations we held years ago, but it is progress nonetheless. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 6CxZlFVsvfCscLNvWTSJpnFyTKmr81PGhoMjo4Lq 47V6MDRLrS73Hik5meE9gm9iEi39WNmrDWIklUe6q From declan at well.com Mon Jan 5 10:47:33 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:47:33 -0600 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism In-Reply-To: ; from jya@pipeline.com on Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 04:38:04AM -0800 References: <20031231060154.GL32470@clueinc.net> <20031231060154.GL32470@clueinc.net> <83EFD866-3B5D-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <20040105124733.A6722@baltwash.com> On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 04:38:04AM -0800, John Young wrote: > What's pleasurable about reading the fiction of ideologues like > Tim is the smack-down tone of their prejudices. Fake, fake, > fake. > > Nowhere in Tim's spew is the recognition that the largest > beneficiaries of government favoritism are corporations and > wealthy individuals like himself, especially those associated with > the greeders of the defense industry, rather the national > security state. No US institution has been uncontaminated > by the wealth generated by the illusion of US enemies and the > raping of the economy to simulate battle with such fictional > threats, at home and abroad. Perhaps it is more thetorically satisfying? I can't speak for Tim or his writing process. But nowhere have I ever seen him support corporate welfare, and in fact the logical flow of his argument made in the post to which you replied would condemn that as well. More importantly, your claims are incorrect. Defense is $379 billion for FY2003, while social security, income security, medicare, health, education and other social services, community development, housing credits, and so on total over $1358 billion. That's not counting "international affairs" (a category I take to include foreign aid), agriculture, transportation, and other programs of dubious necessity that total hundreds of billions more. -Declan Source: http://www.bea.gov/bea/ARTICLES/2002/03March/0302FedBudget.pdf From declan at well.com Mon Jan 5 10:51:40 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:51:40 -0600 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism In-Reply-To: <3FF2E9EF.4020400@thedarkerside.to>; from mkalus@thedarkerside.to on Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 10:23:27AM -0500 References: <20031231060154.GL32470@clueinc.net> <83EFD866-3B5D-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <3FF2E9EF.4020400@thedarkerside.to> Message-ID: <20040105125140.B6722@baltwash.com> On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 10:23:27AM -0500, Michael Kalus wrote: > If mankind would act that way we would have been extinct a long time > ago. A single human being is a rather weak individual. There isn't much > we could have done. ... > Even though I do not agree with people sitting on their asses and not > working, I do not think that we should turn our backs to them and ignore > them. If society casts out the weakest as a strategie of survival than > something here is horribly wrong. This is trite nonsense that is not really interesting or responsive to Tim's claims. Obviously voluntary trade and other forms of economic cooperation in a large marketplace, the more global the better, is the best way to create wealth. Corporations like Tim's former employer Intel could not exist otherwise. But the emphasis, which you missed, is on the phrase "voluntary." -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Jan 5 10:58:56 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:58:56 -0600 Subject: Vengeance Libertarianism In-Reply-To: <5226A355-3BD2-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net>; from timcmay@got.net on Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 12:45:51PM -0800 References: <15c.2a35ab04.2d245176@aol.com> <5226A355-3BD2-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <20040105125856.C6722@baltwash.com> On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 12:45:51PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > those working had to work even harder. A vicious circle, much like the > one now facing American industry, where more and more workers are > claiming bogus "disability" and where the insurance costs are driving > companies out of the country. One of my cousins is married to a private investigator who does work for insurance companies. Over the Christmas holiday I chatted with him for the first time in some detail about his work. Turns out that many people (he says) take paid disability leave from their company to work at a temporary under-the-table job or take legitimate disability leave and then decide they like not working so decide to make it permanent. He sits outside their houses in a van with tinted windows and takes video and photos of them driving to their temp job, cleaning gutters, going for a jog, and so on -- after they claimed they are no longer to walk. With that evidence in hand, the employer calls them up and tells them to be at work the next day -- or be fired. If I were the employer, I wouldn't even give them that second chance. -Declan From s.schear at comcast.net Mon Jan 5 13:53:46 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:53:46 -0800 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: <20040105153335.G6722@baltwash.com> References: <3FF951D8.18711.24A6EBF4@localhost> <20040105153335.G6722@baltwash.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040105135129.05d977f0@mail.comcast.net> At 01:33 PM 1/5/2004, Declan McCullagh wrote: >This is a welcome step, assuming the pharms are legit. We still need >some form of reputation service. > >But I'm not overly optimistic (I tend not to be, in the short run). I >do not know how resistant the e-gold corporate and technical >infrastructure is to U.S. federal government targeting. If the Feds >decided e-gold needed to be shut down and took very aggressive steps, >what would happen? Initially there would likely be a surge in use by their competitors, like Pecunix, that operate entirely outside the US. Later new entrants would probably spring up. steve From declan at well.com Mon Jan 5 12:04:55 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:04:55 -0600 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: ; from mkalus@thedarkerside.to on Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 08:07:37AM -0500 References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <20040105140455.E6722@baltwash.com> On Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 08:07:37AM -0500, Michael Kalus wrote: > Replace "Government" with "Society" and you're getting somewhere. Where > will your brand new sports car go when you don't have a road to drive > on? Who will pay the cops when there are no taxes being collected? These questions have been asked and answered decades ago, before many list members were born. Take a look at Machinery of Freedom and Anarchy, State, and Utopia, which offer different conclusions. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Jan 5 12:06:43 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:06:43 -0600 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <09E34BE8-3DEE-11D8-B1A2-000A95B18462@thedarkerside.to>; from mkalus@thedarkerside.to on Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 08:09:18AM -0500 References: <42C3EB67-3CCD-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <09E34BE8-3DEE-11D8-B1A2-000A95B18462@thedarkerside.to> Message-ID: <20040105140643.F6722@baltwash.com> On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 08:09:18AM -0500, Michael Kalus wrote: > Yes, the way this usually works is that the government builds the road, > then sells it to a private company for some money and then the upkeep > is handled by the company. > > It is rather seldom that someone builds a road for a business venture. Nowadays, yes. But your claim is false: it used to be done frequently. Read Dan Klein's paper on the history of California toll roads. Do your homework before posting. Otherwise you look silly. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Jan 5 13:33:35 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:33:35 -0600 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: <3FF951D8.18711.24A6EBF4@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 12:00:24PM -0800 References: <3FF951D8.18711.24A6EBF4@localhost> Message-ID: <20040105153335.G6722@baltwash.com> This is a welcome step, assuming the pharms are legit. We still need some form of reputation service. But I'm not overly optimistic (I tend not to be, in the short run). I do not know how resistant the e-gold corporate and technical infrastructure is to U.S. federal government targeting. If the Feds decided e-gold needed to be shut down and took very aggressive steps, what would happen? -Declan On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 12:00:24PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > This small step forward is ultimately a result of https. > > The more advanced technologies that have been a focus of > discussion of this list have yet to have real effect, but I see > the infrastructure that would create demand for such > technologies coming into being. > > On 5 Jan 2004 at 11:57, sales at cheapscrips.com wrote: > > > We are an overseas pharmacy that is presently accepting > > e-gold as our exclusive means of payment. Our prices are > > substantially lower than ridiculously-high U.S. prices. In > > addition: > > > > *We currently feature 125 drugs on our site and have access > > to several thousand more. *We do not require a prescription > > of any kind. *Our shipping is just $7 to anywhere in North or > > South America; $9 elsewhere. > > > > Our homepage is located at www.cheapscrips.com > > > > Come check us out! From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Jan 5 16:32:32 2004 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:32:32 -0800 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: <20040105153335.G6722@baltwash.com> References: <3FF951D8.18711.24A6EBF4@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 12:00:24PM -0800 Message-ID: <3FF991A0.14417.25A0122D@localhost> -- On 5 Jan 2004 at 15:33, Declan McCullagh wrote: > But I'm not overly optimistic (I tend not to be, in the short > run). I do not know how resistant the e-gold corporate and > technical infrastructure is to U.S. federal government > targeting. If the Feds decided e-gold needed to be shut down > and took very aggressive steps, what would happen? The USG has taken escalating measures against e-gold, and these have certainly had a substantial effect, but e-gold could lose all its US infrastructure without very bad effect. It is also somewhat protected by muslim-jewish tensions. Some Muslim governments might well see aggressive US measures against e-gold operations in their territories as a part of a Jewish plot to trap the world in the coils of compount interest. E-gold transactions are traceable. E-gold does cooperate with the US government, and lots of other governments, but the trace is apt to come to a dead end in gold or cash. It is hard to get a bank account or credit card with an alternate ID, it is easy to get an e-gold account with no ID, like the old style Swiss Bank accounts. E-gold requests true names, but has no enforcement of them or checking of them. This lack of enforcement is arguably illegal, but it continues. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG W7gsWUY+/5KwrRw98KCYNs/xKsHYjnfvmtucfBoT 4o3QAhOGqRq67ZPaLVE64oWF8uS5hEW6quvjPtm6k From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Jan 5 16:32:33 2004 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:32:33 -0800 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040105135129.05d977f0@mail.comcast.net> References: <20040105153335.G6722@baltwash.com> Message-ID: <3FF991A1.1653.25A01526@localhost> -- Declan McCullagh wrote: > > If the Feds decided e-gold needed to be shut down and took > > very aggressive steps, what would happen? Steve Schear wrote: > Initially there would likely be a surge in use by their > competitors, like Pecunix, that operate entirely outside the > US. Later new entrants would probably spring up. Observe that the crackdown on Napster has led to competitors that are less centralized and make vigorous use of encryption. The existence of pecunix may well be what is deterring the treasury from a more vigorous crackdown on e-gold. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 1leXM7i43VBERRp7Fl9yr4XpGR+1aQcgF4Lpb3Z8 4l172AEr/pH2r6bQ+FpdSN0+6tXvL3UHo7fKb3muF From s.schear at comcast.net Mon Jan 5 16:45:45 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 16:45:45 -0800 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105171458.03316f28@mail.well.com> References: <3FF951D8.18711.24A6EBF4@localhost> <20040105153335.G6722@baltwash.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040105135129.05d977f0@mail.comcast.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105171458.03316f28@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040105163940.05999128@mail.comcast.net> At 02:29 PM 1/5/2004, you wrote: >At 04:53 PM 1/5/2004, Steve Schear wrote: >>Initially there would likely be a surge in use by their competitors, like >>Pecunix, that operate entirely outside the US. Later new entrants would >>probably spring up. > >Undoubtably, over a period of years, you're right. > >But then you have the next wave of attacks by the U.S. regulatory >apparatus (again, assuming sufficient determination). The U.S. could >pressure the Panama government to close Pecunix or apply direct or >indirect sanctions and incentives. The U.S. could make it more difficult >for U.S. residents to transfer money into a Pecunix account, perhaps >through direct criminal sanctions or regulatory discouragement. The U.S. >could mount a propaganda campaign against trusting Pecunix and similar >operators, and so on. These types of attacks mainly throttle the masses from their easy use. Its not clear to me that they were ever intended to serve this market so these efforts may not bear much fruit for regulators. >The last point might even be a valid one. Without external validation or >sufficient reputation, who will trust the operators of an offshore bank >not to flee with the money once they're received enough cash to make the >value of the gold outweigh the possibility of prison time? I see Pecunix >has a gold certificate (http://pecunix.info/gold_bars.htm) posted but I do >not know anything about the Anglo Far-East Bullion Company, whether they >are trustworthy or in cahoots, or what contract governs Pecunix >executives' access to the gold apparently in the valut. I'd like to see more open auditing too. I'd also like to see the equivalent of DGC trading fait money. >I have no reason to doubt Pecunix's honesty and they seem to have taken >some measures to respond to the obvious criticisms. I suppose my point is >that I'm optimistic in the long term but pessimistic about such services >becoming widely opted in the short term because of the reaction by the >U.S., the OECD's FATF, and so on. In this specific case of physical drug >shipments, there's always interdiction at the physical border too. Unless someone launches a killer app that only take e-gold or one of the other DGCs I doubt they will become mainstream, but them again Private Banking has never been mainstream either. As long as these systems don't get on the radar of the regulators they should do OK, even well, as small businesses. steve From declan at well.com Mon Jan 5 14:29:25 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:29:25 -0500 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040105135129.05d977f0@mail.comcast.net> References: <3FF951D8.18711.24A6EBF4@localhost> <20040105153335.G6722@baltwash.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040105135129.05d977f0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105171458.03316f28@mail.well.com> At 04:53 PM 1/5/2004, Steve Schear wrote: >Initially there would likely be a surge in use by their competitors, like >Pecunix, that operate entirely outside the US. Later new entrants would >probably spring up. Undoubtably, over a period of years, you're right. But then you have the next wave of attacks by the U.S. regulatory apparatus (again, assuming sufficient determination). The U.S. could pressure the Panama government to close Pecunix or apply direct or indirect sanctions and incentives. The U.S. could make it more difficult for U.S. residents to transfer money into a Pecunix account, perhaps through direct criminal sanctions or regulatory discouragement. The U.S. could mount a propaganda campaign against trusting Pecunix and similar operators, and so on. The last point might even be a valid one. Without external validation or sufficient reputation, who will trust the operators of an offshore bank not to flee with the money once they're received enough cash to make the value of the gold outweigh the possibility of prison time? I see Pecunix has a gold certificate (http://pecunix.info/gold_bars.htm) posted but I do not know anything about the Anglo Far-East Bullion Company, whether they are trustworthy or in cahoots, or what contract governs Pecunix executives' access to the gold apparently in the valut. I have no reason to doubt Pecunix's honesty and they seem to have taken some measures to respond to the obvious criticisms. I suppose my point is that I'm optimistic in the long term but pessimistic about such services becoming widely opted in the short term because of the reaction by the U.S., the OECD's FATF, and so on. In this specific case of physical drug shipments, there's always interdiction at the physical border too. -Declan From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Mon Jan 5 14:44:22 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:44:22 -0500 Subject: BitTorrent users chuckling over Pew peer-to-peer report Message-ID: >By John Paczkowski > >The suits over at the Recording Industry Association of America are likely a bit more smug than usual today thanks to a report that suggests the number of people swapping music files online has declined dramatically since the lobbying group began suing people who illegally trade copyrighted music online. According to a report released Sunday by the Pew Internet & American Life Project and comScore Media Metrix, the number of individuals illegally downloading music from the Internet plummeted from 35 million to 18 million between late May and mid-December. "Nothing has ever fallen off the cliff the way that downloading has," Lee Rainie, director of the Pew Internet project, told Newsday. "Obviously the lawsuits were a watershed, and they dramatically changed some online behavior." But just how did they change it? Pew researchers would have us believe that fewer people are downloading music illegally. But they sampled only four peer-to-peer applications - Kazaa, WinMX, BearSh! are and Grokster -- each of them known to be heavily monitored by the RIAA. What of BitTorrent? Or eDonkey and eMule? Or Carracho? Isn't it possible that more of the trafficking is just moving off the radar? And where are users learing about 'off the radar' sites? Perhaps http://bitzi.com/ is one. From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Jan 5 20:32:53 2004 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:32:53 -0800 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105171458.03316f28@mail.well.com> References: <6.0.1.1.0.20040105135129.05d977f0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3FF9C9F5.2518.267C1F68@localhost> -- Declan McCullagh: > But then you have the next wave of attacks by the U.S. > regulatory apparatus (again, assuming sufficient > determination). The U.S. could pressure the Panama government > to close Pecunix or apply direct or indirect sanctions and > incentives. The U.S. could make it more difficult for U.S. > residents to transfer money into a Pecunix account, perhaps > through direct criminal sanctions or regulatory > discouragement. The U.S. could mount a propaganda campaign > against trusting Pecunix and similar operators, and so on. Yes, but all this is more complicated, more difficult to do, and easier to evade, than sending in goons to a certain shop to beat the owner insensible and seize his inventory. A ruler who is competent and violent can accomplish all sorts of things. As Napoleon said, you can do anything with bayonets except sit on them, but in fact you cannot do anything with bayonets. It is hard to do complicated things. Leviathan is necessarily far less intelligent than the individuals that compose it. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG l4fPcdUpIZed1a9UOLVkoXAVUyNfIpAwdU1iD1c/ 43VuVeZv4rjEnepkdOsSb+yERponsE9yYH6rr1Dls From kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 5 18:41:50 2004 From: kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com (John Kelsey) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 21:41:50 -0500 Subject: DoS-ing fatherland goons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040105213218.04b78a70@pop.ix.netcom.com> At 11:01 AM 1/3/04 +0100, privacy.at Anonymous Remailer wrote: >If we put aside the probable and obvious cause for disrupting the air >traffic - namely, introduction of the permanent emergency state (in the >future 2-3% of all flights may be affected - small price for maintaining >the power), I wonder what are the logistics of injecting false information >into the snooping systems. It sure looks Al Qaida et al have already figured this out. There just so happens to be "chatter" indicative of a major attack before every major holiday. This seems to lead to three possibilities: a. AQ has worked out that it's cheaper and safer to disrupt life in the US by "chatter" than by actually trying any attacks here, and disrupting holidays is more fun. b. There really have been attacks planned, but they've either been foiled actively (e.g., the terrorists got arrested or shot or something before the attack took place) or passively (e.g., the higher alert status, changes to security procedures, etc., have made the terrorists postpone their attacks. c. There really isn't much useful information about AQ plans in the available intelligence, and what we're seeing is the intelligence community's priors (in the Bayesian sense; their prior assumptions are swamping the effects of their meager data). ... --John Kelsey, kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com PGP: FA48 3237 9AD5 30AC EEDD BBC8 2A80 6948 4CAA F259 From declan at well.com Tue Jan 6 07:19:58 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:19:58 -0600 Subject: progress In-Reply-To: <3FF991A1.1653.25A01526@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 04:32:33PM -0800 References: <20040105153335.G6722@baltwash.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040105135129.05d977f0@mail.comcast.net> <3FF991A1.1653.25A01526@localhost> Message-ID: <20040106091958.A17943@baltwash.com> On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 04:32:33PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: > The existence of pecunix may well be what is deterring the > treasury from a more vigorous crackdown on e-gold. You may be right, and it's an interesting point, though partially inconsistent with the way the Feds have worked to date. Restraint has never been their strong suit. -Declan From Freematt357 at aol.com Tue Jan 6 07:09:47 2004 From: Freematt357 at aol.com (Freematt357 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:09:47 EST Subject: Snake oil? Message-ID: http://www.topsecretcrypto.com/ Snake oil? Regards, Matt- From s.schear at comcast.net Tue Jan 6 11:39:41 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:39:41 -0800 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106141617.02675468@mail.well.com> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106141617.02675468@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040106113239.05dbb830@mail.comcast.net> At 11:17 AM 1/6/2004, Declan McCullagh wrote: >http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-407043,curpg-3.cms > >Moreover, it is found out that the Americans are shying away from the >challenges of math and science. A recent National Science Foundation Study >reveals a 5 per cent decline in the overall doctoral candidates in the US >over the last five years. Not surprising considering the lack of preparation most get today in school. As has been discussed on this list many who graduated college before the late '70s were able to pursue independent science experimentation (esp. chemistry and rocketry, etc.). Now almost all science can only be learned in the classroom. Many of the greatest scientific break throughs were made by amateurs. We'll probably never know what new ideas were never thought, or were greatly delayed, because young minds in science were only channeled through the rote of the classroom. steve From daryl.bunce at attws.com Tue Jan 6 12:11:00 2004 From: daryl.bunce at attws.com (R/db) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:11:00 -0800 Subject: WiFi Repeater? In-Reply-To: ; from camera_lumina@hotmail.com on Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 02:20:15PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20040106121100.A15435@attws.com> On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 02:20:15PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: > DOES THERE EXIST something like a WiFi "repeater", which will allow me to > "reach" that public WiFi spot without my being within 200 feet or so? How about an antenna, instead? It would work if you have line-of-sight. If you're really looking for a repeater, check the comments from the community 802.11 groups, like Seattle Wireless: http://www.seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/PassiveRepeater From s.schear at comcast.net Tue Jan 6 13:27:09 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:27:09 -0800 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <20040106210517.GA19605@mail.dadadada.net> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106141617.02675468@mail.well.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040106113239.05dbb830@mail.comcast.net> <20040106210517.GA19605@mail.dadadada.net> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040106131813.05d97008@mail.comcast.net> At 01:05 PM 1/6/2004, BillyGOTO wrote: >On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:39:41AM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: > > As has been discussed on this list many who graduated college before the > > late '70s were able to pursue independent science experimentation (esp. > > chemistry and rocketry, etc.). > > > Now almost all science can only be learned in the classroom. > >What's your motivation for saying that?! > >Are you saying that new science has gone too far ahead of the layman's >understanding, that tools are expensive/inaccessible, or that knowledge >is being hoarded by a conspiracy of Illuminati scientists? I don't buy >it. Nature is still out there to be studied by those willing to look. Just try setting up a well-equipped personal chem. lab w/o inviting a visit from the BATF or FBI. Its next to impossible for minors to purchase chemical reagents, I had no trouble in the 60s. Try building and finding a place to launch an amateur rocket (it can be done, but now only with the greatest of regulatory red tape). I did. Some of my group's rockets achieved heights over 100,000 ft (confirmed by Edward's AFB radar.) Try doing independent research in bacterial or viral genetics and see who shows up on your doorstep. > > Many of the greatest scientific break throughs were made by amateurs. > >who are alive and well, AFAICT... > > http://www.sas.org > >What about: > > ftp://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/pub/astro/SL9/animations/keck-R.mpg Notice that none of the science avenues presented are the one's I've discussed. steve From declan at well.com Tue Jan 6 11:17:04 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 14:17:04 -0500 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106141617.02675468@mail.well.com> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-407043,curpg-3.cms Moreover, it is found out that the Americans are shying away from the challenges of math and science. A recent National Science Foundation Study reveals a 5 per cent decline in the overall doctoral candidates in the US over the last five years. The India side story: India produces 3.1 million college graduates a year, which is expected to be doubled by 2010. The number of engineering colleges is slated to grow 50 per cent, to nearly 1,600, over the next four years. From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Tue Jan 6 11:20:15 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 14:20:15 -0500 Subject: WiFi Repeater? Message-ID: I'm thinking about a WiFi repeater... Imagine I work on a high floor in an office tower, but I know that very nearby, on the ground floor, there's a public WiFi hotspot. Now let's say I want to be able to access that hotspot, but I'm currently out of range due to the height. DOES THERE EXIST something like a WiFi "repeater", which will allow me to "reach" that public WiFi spot without my being within 200 feet or so? (I deploying one or more repeaters throughout our offices so that I can reach the public hotspot.) Of course, it's also better if that repeater masks who I am to the real hotspot, and terminates encryption on both sides. But of course, I don't want it to cost a ton, and I probably don't want anyone else to be able to use it either. One nice application of this is to be able to regularly send messages from this public spot, but without anyone every actually seeing me. And if the "last" repeater is in these (private) offices somewhere, it's doubtful anyone would ever be able to tell that this is occurring. Or so I believe... -TD _________________________________________________________________ Expand your wine savvy  and get some great new recipes  at MSN Wine. http://wine.msn.com From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Tue Jan 6 11:25:43 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:25:43 -0500 Subject: Book review: A Lodging of Wayfaring Men Message-ID: [The book is now available in electronic form (.pdf) for download from long time cypherpunk and Havenco founder Sean Hastings' web site: http://www.seanhastings.com/alowm.pdf Donations/patronage of $10 to the author, in e-gold or DMT, are requested in the book's forward.] A Lodging of Wayfaring Men By Anonymous Paperback 449 pages Available from http://www.laissezfairebooks.com for $17.95. Phone order line: 800-326-0996 BOOK REVIEW by Thomas Dorman This is a brief, favorable review of a novel published anonymously. Our civilization is bereft of heroes. Ayn Rand pointed out that contemporary heroes in western civilization are actors and gladiators. In times gone by we had statesmen, philosophers, warriors, inventors, scientists, engineers and doctors. Where have the heroes gone? The news, television and educational media have passed them by, have erased them from the consciousness of our civilization. The Renaissance period brought forth the ascendancy of the mind; the intellect of man; the rational mind. The philosopher kings (Plato's term) have regrouped, and, through dumbing down, diversion, and the feeding of all of humanities' addictions have (almost) brought the herd back to the serfdom "it deserves." The novel I am reviewing brings the hero back. The philosopher, the physician/inventor, imbued with selfishness and the love of humanity combined. In Ayn Rand's novels, the heroes were only selfish. "Altruism is the weakness of the downtrodden". This novelist has taken us a step further. Through promoting the welfare of all, each of us and our families grow into fulfilling the fullness of our potential. It is based all on the free market. These concepts close the circle of the philosophy of laissez faire. The novel leads us through a clever plot where the principles of freedom and individuality lead to a free market, one not controlled by governments or by tax men. The narrative is gripping. The reader cannot lay the book down. The book culminates in a number of essays filling in gaps in the philosophy of western civilization. An enigma remains. Why is the book authored anonymously? I received the book camouflaged in a brown envelope, mailed from Switzerland. Looking at its production, it was clearly the product of a short printing run. A letter in the envelope reads: "Hello, The author of this book prepared a short list of people that might be best able to appreciate it, and instructed us to see that complimentary copies were provided. Your name was included on the list. This is not a request for endorsements. We thank you if you wish to recommend the book to Should you desire more copies, they are currently available from Laissez-Faire Books. http://laissezfairebooks.com Thank you, The Publishers" I almost forgot the title: A Lodging of Wayfaring Men. A bit odd, don't you think? About halfway through the book we find a quotation from the Prophet Jeremiah, chapter nine. He laments the woebegone ways of his people. They have lost their moorings; they no longer obey their lord. I, for myself, have often noticed that much of the objectivism of Ayn Rand is rooted, perhaps unconsciously, in the Hebrew tradition. This has not been subject to analysis, and the virulent antireligiousness of her writing is one flaw (the other is not recognizing that most people are not rational). This particular novel leads us, in the end, to an exciting scene where the protagonist is interviewed by the Bilderbergers (the true rulers of the world). I will not tell you the outcome; you need to read the book for yourselves. Everyone who thinks he has a rational mind needs to read this novel. Western civilization needs to be rescued, and for this we need leadership; we need a philosophy. The seeds! of it are right here in this novel. I am going to say it again: You need to read this novel. Oh, yes. I forgot to comment on why, at least why I believe, the author chose to remains anonymous. The purpose of this novel is to instill independent responsibility and thinking in each of the readers. If the author were to give her or his name, we would be creating another guru cult. You see, the essence of our civilization is independence; intellectual independence of each member of the middle class. How can you be independent if you follow a guru? Readers of my writing will know how fearful I am of the future of our civilization. Just in the last month, our privacy in medical records is lost. Our privacy in our personal communications and affairs are lost to the Homeland Security Act, and we are threatened in our homes and towns with violence and terrorism from fanatics from out with our borders, and fanatics within government. Who will save us? We have to take responsibility individually, all of us. We need to turn the tide and rescue our civilization. Now is the time.! This is a call to arms; moral arms. Read the book. Thomas Dorman, MD November 29th 2002 --------------------------------------------------- For those who haven't read this book, "Farber" is one of the characters, and these essays were published in several newspapers around the world. I find it interesting that in the book it was mentioned that the NY Times wouldn't print it, while the NY Post not only did, but criticized the Times for not doing so. Anyway, these essays describe some of the plot that goes on in the book, but not in a way to spoil it if one were to read it. I believe these essays could be useful for all of us in our pursuit of sovereignty, and inspiring perhaps as well. Enjoy. SP Farberbs First Essay It began with Arab traders and the merchants of Venice. They really didn't know what they were building or how it would work. They merely struggled for the betterment of themselves and their families. It began to break out when the deep superstition of the Middle Ages cracked open under the strain of new philosophies and religious ideas. It found room to grow wherever new and wild vistas were found. It found fresh growth with each discovery of far-off new lands. It found a home everywhere the old order was broken up and fresh starts were being made. It took a firm root in America and flourished there for over a hundred years. Never again, where history is recorded, will there be any question as to whether or not it works. bIt,b is the great discovery of the modern era: the positive-sum game. It is the liberation of human energy to do its appropriate job. It is the operation of creation, using the only counter-entropic force this world has: free human energy. You can see it work everywhere from the research lab, to the front office, to the construction site. It is what drives the entrepreneur to develop and produce a new product or service, and it is what gives the construction worker pride when his skill overcomes a difficult problem, making way for his blueprints to become a functional structure. Why is the construction worker proud, and why does the entrepreneur exult? Because they have done the one thing that all humans have the impulse to do b to create something good that would not have been otherwise. Human energy is the great creative force in the world. Without it, things tend to entropy (As the second law of thermodynamics states, bClosed systems tend to entropy.b) Without active and creative human energy, everything goes back to an animal level of existence. This human energy does not function by obedience and compulsion b it cannot, no matter how many rulers wish it were otherwise. Look at the command economies of the dead socialist world. Within several decades their occupants were reduced to an animal existence. Look at the millennia when constrained people lived at the pleasure of their Kings, seeking permission from their rulers to live and work. They continually starved and died. It is only when a few freelance merchants began living according to their own minds and breaking away from the permissions of their rulers that things began to change. When human energy is free to move, creativity goes wild; as do motivation, happiness, and the accumulation of wealth. When it is restrained, the descent to animal existence takes over again. The discovery of this fact is what differentiates us from the Middle Ages, and not much else. Do you think the people who lived in those dark times were inherently less intelligent than we are? They were not! You and I are their direct descendants, not many generations removed. We are essentially the same. The term positive-sum game signifies that this system creates more than the sum of its parts. The only real magic b human energy b creates more than it started with. Take some raw materials that of themselves are of little worth, and when you add human creativity you can create vehicles, computers and spaceships. The materials themselves have been around since the creation of the earth; if they could have turned into something great of themselves they would have done it long ago. But they cannot b it is only when humans manipulate them according to their own ideas that they gain any value. Thus, five dollars worth of materials becomes a product worth thousands of dollars. Those who do not play the positive-sum game instinctively fall back into being motivated by envy. Ultimately, they find reasons to feel that bthere are only so many pieces of the pie.b This is the seed of destruction. The next thing they say is bIf you have a bigger piece of the pie, then someone else has to have less.b That is a zero-sum game b the idea that nothing is really created, just moved from one hand to another. Not only is it false, but it is also the credo of every envious looter who speaks of bfairnessb and bequal distribution of wealth,b but who secretly hopes to get a share of wealth held by others. The real controversy of our time is this: Is human energy allowed to work in the world, or will it be tied down? The miserable experiment of communism has taught the worldbs rulers that the positive-sum game is necessary. So, their plan now is not to allow human energy to work, but to siphon off as much wealth as possible without killing it altogether. We productive people are carrying the governments of the world upon our backs. Are they worth half of our efforts b half of our lives? They take half of our earnings away from us continually by a vast web of taxes, fees and regulations b for what benefit? bTo help the poor,b they say, and clamorously infer that if you disagree you are a heartless and dangerous person, and further that all will despise you. But if our money is forcibly taken from us, is not the state robbing us? Any dictionary will tell you that it is so, but it is considered poor form to say so b even to consider it. And are the poor better off? Certainly some of our money goes to the poor (although most is eaten up in the bureaucracy). This feeds their bellies insufficiently, while at the same time locking them into a life of dependence that wages an unending war upon their souls. Is that a good thing? Are the poor better off for this robbing of producers and living in a state of dependency? Or, does this produce one injustice the more and one moral lesson the less? Many of you will gasp, and reel in shock that I would challenge the respectability and honor of your tradition, and you fear to let yourselves consider my case. You have come up against someone who does not share in your conspiracy of compliance. You must either turn away from these subjects, or face the prospect of becoming a radical, and of people saying bad things about you. Are you angry? If so, it is not because I am wrong. If that were the case, you would simply walk away. You are angry because I am ill-mannered enough to bring up subjects that you wish to avoid. My ideas bother you. When they come up, you divert your mind to pat phrases like, bThat is the price we pay for our society. You dodge reason, and shunt your thoughts away in order to keep your mental comfort level. You do not face these ideas head-on because you are afraid of them b you are afraid that you might have to agree with them. And then you would have to face the choice either to be a hero or to be a coward. I stood one evening in IBM Plaza in Chicago, looking over the riverfront skyline as the sun sank in the southwest, and realized that the towering monuments to human effort in front of me were the results of the positive-sum game run at only half-speed. Chicago was wild and open from the 1830s through the 1890s. Then, slowly, the curbs and limits were imposed by do-gooder government and collectivist types. These inevitably slowed the workings of a city that had been, as one writer said, bGeared for giants.b But the restraints were not enough to stop the positive-sum game b only enough to slow it down. The Chicago skyline I watched was the result of the positive-sum game being played at half-speed, yet its results were awesome. I thought about what might have been if it were allowed to operate unfettered. And then I thought of the greatest example of the positive-sum game in my lifetime b Hong Kong. It went from rice fields to the grandest city of the east in one generation b an explosion of unrestrained human energy. What things we have been deprived of! What glorious accomplishments aborted and stillborn! And now our recent explosion of technology has become the target of bureaucrats worldwide. Where will we go from here? Will the positive-sum game once again be strangled, or will it migrate to new and open lands? But! Moving to a new land will be a problem, wonbt it? There is no land on this planet that has not been claimed by some gang of rulers. So, until cheap space flight is achieved, there is only one new country to be found b cyberspace. So escape there we shall. And there we will b and must, for our own sake and the sake of our descendants b establish the positive-sum game without restriction. Toward that end, we have built a private free market. We used our own money to do it, and webve broken no laws that we are aware of, save laws that outlaw privacy. Now, the rulers are trying to stop us. Why? We want to run an experiment, and see if freedom really is better than servitude. Why wonbt they let us try? Are they interested in the betterment of mankind, or are they really interested in their monopoly powers? All we want is to be left alone and to try freedom. Why is that threatening? And why do they wish to imprison us? James Farber Farberbs Second Essay History books tell the stories of Rulers. Some are Kings; some, Emperors; some, Presidents or Prime Ministers; and some, potentates of more exotic name. A few of them were more or less benevolent, and others were tyrants. Most were in-between. But they all held one thing in common b they maintained a monopoly on the use of force in their territories. They maintained their right to use coercion, and to prevent all others from doing so. Stripped of romantic rhetoric and patriotic emotion, the essence of rulership is the ability to maintain a monopoly of force. Argue if you like, but you will be arguing with the dictionary. Every reform of government and rulership to date has kept the central mechanism of coercion in place. Did some governmental reforms lead to improvements? Certainly. They made things considerably less bad. But they left centralized coercion in place. And for every bgoodb leader that has come along, such as a Washington or a Churchill, we've had several times as many Stalins or Maos. I have friends who study such things, and they assure me that roughly two percent of all people are would-be dictators; if they had the opportunity to oppress the world, they would. Another twelve percent or so are would-be facilitators; that is, when one of the two-percenters comes to power, they are glad to fill a slot and vigorously exercise power over others. Like it or not, these people are out there, and they are drawn to the levers of power. And once every so often, they have their turns. When they do, innocent people die in large numbers. Over one hundred million died this way in the past century. Try to comprehend thatb&one hundred times one thousand, times one thousand people. Boys, girls, men, women, teenagers, short, tall, strong, weak, dark-skinned and light-skinned. All of them dead because twisted people were able to take hold of centralized force. If you have wondered why some of us are so determined to keep governments out of cyberspace, please understand that this is why. We've had enough of centralized force. Webre removing the whole mechanism. We think it was a mistake from the beginning. We don't want to be anything for the two percent to grab. If you want coercive rulership, keep it; we won't try to take it away from you. But we have chosen to opt out. Don't try to reign us back in. We won't try to make you live our way, and you don't try to make us live your way. We are not your property. Our arrangement has no central mechanism of coercion, and it has been working quite well for a couple of years now. We like it. This arrangement has, however, surprised us in several ways. One of the things we discovered was that once you remove the mechanisms of coercion, you remove something else b politics. Politics is the art and science of managing centralized coercion. This is the reason political debates are so infuriating: the final decision leads to unopposable force. Once the political process is completed, you have the choice either to obey, or to be punished. Coercion is the sine qua non of politics; the thing, without which, politics would not be politics. Indeed, if you remove coercion, politics becomes something else b economics. Things work by economic means here. If you don't like the way a market operates, just move to a different one. Or, if no one does it the way you think is right, start your own. There are no protected services here, nothing mandatory. You may opt out of anything you don't like, or offer any service you like. We couldn't stop you if you wanted to start a communist collective. The only limitation would be that you could not force anyone to join or remain part of your collective; we have no mechanism for that. The entire system is built around the idea that persuading people to trade with you is moral, and that forcing them is not. We think our ideas are right, but we will not impose them on you. You can hold whatever ideas you like, just don't impose them on us. All this being said, what really concerns your rulers, and what is driving them to demonize us, is that people are leaving their systems and joining ours. Your children are joining the free digital economy in huge numbers. No, the young people are not joining us for historical and philosophical reasons; those things are mostly for us older people. Young people, as always, are looking for adventure and opportunity. In your regulated world, very few people ever get much real adventure or overwhelming success. They read about such things in novels and celebrity tabloids, they see them in movies, but very few of them will actually experience such things. Our world, on the other hand, has adventure and opportunity in wholesale quantities. Your children may have to work hard to get it, but a big life is waiting for them if they wish to earn it. In our realm, intelligence, daring, and perseverance are rewarded far more directly than in your regulated world. Here, you can be a complete unknown, with no connections and no wealth b but, if you can learn to provide excellent ideas or services, you can get rich. No one here knows or cares about the color of your skin, or your sex, or who you sleep with, or anything of the sort. If you can produce, youbre a player. Want to go from rags to riches? Pick a valuable skill in our world, throw yourself into it with all of your might, excel at it, and start selling it. Time and effort are all you need. You don't need friends in the right placesb&only value to offer. And therebs more: The truth is that the best rewards come to those who are first at something new. Jobs and Wozniak were the first to produce a good personal computer, but other people would have done the same thing within a year or two. They got to do all the cool stuff only because they were first. You can say the same thing for every other discovery or invention. Human knowledge is built piece-upon-piece, and new discoveries follow, more or less, in that sequence. If you want to do the really fun things, you have to get to the front of the line. The stream of human knowledge is now firmly rooted in our world. The frontier of Alvin Tofflerbs third wave is in cyberspace, and thatbs where the front of the line can be found. Now, let me tell you about the future of the third wave: The central ideal of your old world is coercive authority. This is embodied not only in rulership, but in schools, in families, in religions, and in most every area of life. We were all born into a world that told us, bDo what you are told, or we'll hurt you.b Our parents told us that, our teachers imposed it on us, our gods are envisioned this way, and certainly the rulers of the earth operate this way. From birth to death, continually, it confronts you all. Having lived with these ideas for a hundred generations, humanity is used to this, and can survive it moderately well. But it is far from ideal. From birth on you are trained to sit, to obey or else, to worry that you might do something wrong without realizing. It puts you in a sort of perpetual cringe, unconsciously cowering in expectation of the next blow. Being used to it is no reason to think that it isn't damaging. We have eliminated this. It has not root here, no mechanism. This is having an effect on the world already, although it certainly has a long way to go. But it is here, and it is not fading away. It may be a generation or two before we begin to see how the coercion-free mind works. Longer before it becomes dominant. Nonetheless, the seedlings have been planted, and they are thriving. We certainly didn't start this. Its roots trace back to every free thinker, to every rebel for truth; to the true heroes, who, in a thousand different areas of life, had the courage to be right, even in the face of opposition. We are simply carrying on their work at the moment when it threatens to reach critical mass. If we were simply one more reform movement, we would seek to conquer your system and run it our way. That, however, is not what we are. We do not accept coercion as moral. We do not wish to coerce anyone, and we will not submit to being coerced. We do not want to run your system. If all of this seems threatening to you, I'm sorry. I know how that can feel. We are not your enemies b we are your friends, and we are your future. We will not harm you. We do not want to take your governments away from you. We do not want to control your governments. We are not asking you to change your lives. We are only withdrawing from your game. Go your own way in peace. We wish you well. We still love you, we still care about you, we'll still spend time with you, and in the right situation we would defend you. But we will not remain part of your coercive systems. We are pleased to share this planet with you, but we do not wish to share your social structures. We want to do a new thing b a better thing. If you wish the best for your children, encourage them to step into the new world b a world where they can own their own lives, and enjoy the fruits of their own labor. A perfect world? No, But a much better world than one with centralized coercion and obedience to authority as its main pillars. We do wish you well. James Farber From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Tue Jan 6 12:33:00 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:33:00 -0500 Subject: WiFi Repeater? Message-ID: Well, I don't think the truly passive route is the most appropriate. At least, I can imagine the DHCP of Starbucks, for instance, will be "aware" of my computer's Ethernet address, or at least it can be 'modified' to look for me and report (to a TLA) when I'm online. (I'm no datacom guy so I may have fumbled the correct usage of the terminology.) With an active device "I" could be made to look different every time. (I suppose some of this could be done in my laptop, but let's just assume I don't own this computer and can't modify it.) And I'd prefer if it didn't cost me an arm and a leg (come to think of it, I could probably just buy a few cheap Linksys WiFi routers and scatter them around, but I was hoping for something even cheaper, smaller, and less obtrusive.) -TD >From: R/db >To: Tyler Durden >CC: cypherpunks at minder.net >Subject: Re: WiFi Repeater? >Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:11:00 -0800 > >On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 02:20:15PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: > > DOES THERE EXIST something like a WiFi "repeater", which will allow me >to > > "reach" that public WiFi spot without my being within 200 feet or so? > >How about an antenna, instead? It would work if you have >line-of-sight. > >If you're really looking for a repeater, check the comments >from the community 802.11 groups, like Seattle Wireless: > >http://www.seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/PassiveRepeater > > _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access  limited time only! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk Tue Jan 6 07:44:14 2004 From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (Dave Howe) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:44:14 -0000 Subject: Snake oil? References: Message-ID: <027501c3d46b$f4c4c030$c71121c2@exchange.sharpuk.co.uk> Freematt357 at aol.com wrote: > http://www.topsecretcrypto.com/ > Snake oil? I am not entirely sure. on the plus side - it apparently uses Sha-1 for a signing algo, RSA with a max keysize of 16Kbits (overkill, but better than enforcing something stupidly small), built in NTP synch for timestamps (probably spoofable, but at least a valiant attempt to keep timestamps accurate "by default") and supports a range of file, folder, email and chat crypto with a onscreen keyboard for password entry (again, not unbeatable but a valiant attempt) next step is the symmetric component though - which shows more than slight traces of oil. First is a randomly generated session key, protected by the RSA component - on the face of it fine (its how pgp and smime do it, after all) but no details are given on *how* the random key is obtained (the code apparently "contains a true random number generator" which seems doubtful) and the symmetric component is a proprietary algo (for which source is provided, but even so...) Second is pretty much pgp's conventional mode - but with a user supplied key. no mention of hashing, and again, the proprietary algo is in use. Third is True One Time Pad - yes well duh! I could write one in eight lines or so of VBScript, for free. Nobody needs to pay for a OTP application, certainly not per-seat. An announcement of the software (and subsequent discussion) took place in Sci.Crypt some months ago - dejagoogle link here: http://makeashorterlink.com/?M138249F6 - if anyone wants to read it. From billy at dadadada.net Tue Jan 6 13:05:17 2004 From: billy at dadadada.net (BillyGOTO) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:05:17 -0500 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040106113239.05dbb830@mail.comcast.net> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106141617.02675468@mail.well.com> <6.0.1.1.0.20040106113239.05dbb830@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040106210517.GA19605@mail.dadadada.net> On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:39:41AM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: > At 11:17 AM 1/6/2004, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-407043,curpg-3.cms > > > >Moreover, it is found out that the Americans are shying away from the > >challenges of math and science. A recent National Science Foundation Study > >reveals a 5 per cent decline in the overall doctoral candidates in the US > >over the last five years. > Not surprising considering the lack of preparation most get today in school. > As has been discussed on this list many who graduated college before the > late '70s were able to pursue independent science experimentation (esp. > chemistry and rocketry, etc.). > Now almost all science can only be learned in the classroom. What's your motivation for saying that?! Are you saying that new science has gone too far ahead of the layman's understanding, that tools are expensive/inaccessible, or that knowledge is being hoarded by a conspiracy of Illuminati scientists? I don't buy it. Nature is still out there to be studied by those willing to look. > Many of the greatest scientific break throughs were made by amateurs. who are alive and well, AFAICT... http://www.sas.org What about: ftp://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/pub/astro/SL9/animations/keck-R.mpg > We'll probably never know what new ideas were never thought, or were > greatly delayed, because young minds in science were only channeled > through the rote of the classroom. STOP! We'll DEFINATELY never know. Don't Rummsfeldize. From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Tue Jan 6 16:45:50 2004 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:45:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: WiFi Repeater? In-Reply-To: <0401062100420.-1153587968@somehost.domainz.com> Message-ID: <20040107004550.83997.qmail@web40601.mail.yahoo.com> Forget about repeater. 13-15 db flat panel antenna will get you access to distant APs - up to one mile in favourable conditions. 18db grid dish will connect you to omnidirectional AP within 2 miles. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus From jdd at dixons.org Tue Jan 6 12:30:03 2004 From: jdd at dixons.org (Jim Dixon) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:30:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India Message-ID: <20040106202945.V29156-100000@localhost> On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Declan McCullagh wrote: > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-407043,curpg-3.cms "Today, Bangalore stands ahead of Bay Area, San Francisco and California, with a lead of 20,000 techies, while employing a total number of 1.5 lakh engineers." ek lakh = 100,000 I am sure that there are a lot of good engineers in India. However, the educational system has to be seen to be fully appreciated. When my wife and I last travelled in north India, admittedly quite some time ago, what began as a riot at the University of Lucknow -- students protesting over invigilation of exams, I believe -- escalated into a conflict that eventually involved the armed police on the one hand and the military on the other. The university campus was destroyed, burned down. I spent several months in Calcutta over a couple of years. During at least one visit there were riots at the university; the papers reported bodies hanging from trees. Many had been shot. Same story: students protested because they were stopped from openly exchanging papers, consulting books, or just chatting with friends during examinations. Many were also angry because invigilators were actually checking the identities of those writing the exam papers. The going rate for a degree at the time was several hundred dollars. Knowledge of the subject was not much relevant. Such education as occurred largely involved rote learning, often based on texts many years out of date. > Moreover, it is found out that the Americans are shying away from the > challenges of math and science. A recent National Science Foundation Study > reveals a 5 per cent decline in the overall doctoral candidates in the US > over the last five years. No telling what this actually means, given that a large percentage of doctoral candidates are foreign. It is becoming much harder for foreign students to get into the US, so many are going to universities in Europe. This change has occurred in the last five years -- more precisely, since 9/11. > The India side story: India produces 3.1 million college graduates a year, > which is expected to be doubled by 2010. The number of engineering colleges > is slated to grow 50 per cent, to nearly 1,600, over the next four years. My impression is that India has a few excellent institutions and a vast number of unbelievably bad schools. It seems likely that the flow of money into Bangalore and a few other centers will gradually improve this situation, but it is likely to take decades, and per-capita convergence with the US and Europe seems unlikely within the century. While 1.5 lakh (150,000) engineers may sound like a lot, you have to bear in mind that there are about 100 crore (1 billion) people in India. -- Jim Dixon jdd at dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure From shaddack at ns.arachne.cz Tue Jan 6 12:07:55 2004 From: shaddack at ns.arachne.cz (Thomas Shaddack) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:07:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: WiFi Repeater? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0401062100420.-1153587968@somehost.domainz.com> I can't be considered an expert on this technology, so probably there is another, much simpler solution. The first idea (and so far the only one) I got is to use a pair of wireless access points, eg, DWL-900AP+ ones (the only ones I have experience with so far); if I'd have a pair of these, I'd configure one to access the hotspot, and connect it by a crossover Ethernet cable with the other one, configured to be on another channel and use WEP and to be accessible only by you. On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Tyler Durden wrote: > > I'm thinking about a WiFi repeater... > > Imagine I work on a high floor in an office tower, but I know that very > nearby, on the ground floor, there's a public WiFi hotspot. > > Now let's say I want to be able to access that hotspot, but I'm currently > out of range due to the height. > > DOES THERE EXIST something like a WiFi "repeater", which will allow me to > "reach" that public WiFi spot without my being within 200 feet or so? (I > deploying one or more repeaters throughout our offices so that I can reach > the public hotspot.) > > > Of course, it's also better if that repeater masks who I am to the real > hotspot, and terminates encryption on both sides. But of course, I don't > want it to cost a ton, and I probably don't want anyone else to be able to > use it either. > > One nice application of this is to be able to regularly send messages from > this public spot, but without anyone every actually seeing me. And if the > "last" repeater is in these (private) offices somewhere, it's doubtful > anyone would ever be able to tell that this is occurring. > > Or so I believe... > > -TD > > _________________________________________________________________ > Expand your wine savvy  and get some great new recipes  at MSN Wine. > http://wine.msn.com From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Tue Jan 6 22:18:20 2004 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:18:20 -0800 Subject: WiFi Repeater? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.2.20040106221656.045b8330@miles.parrhesia.com> At 11:20 AM 1/6/2004, Tyler Durden wrote: >I'm thinking about a WiFi repeater... > >Imagine I work on a high floor in an office tower, but I know that very >nearby, on the ground floor, there's a public WiFi hotspot. > >Now let's say I want to be able to access that hotspot, but I'm currently >out of range due to the height. > >DOES THERE EXIST something like a WiFi "repeater", which will allow me to >"reach" that public WiFi spot without my being within 200 feet or so? (I >deploying one or more repeaters throughout our offices so that I can reach >the public hotspot.) http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=267 -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at parrhesia.com From shaddack at ns.arachne.cz Tue Jan 6 16:50:48 2004 From: shaddack at ns.arachne.cz (Thomas Shaddack) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:50:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: Small embedded computer board? (SLD PXA 255 DIMM) Message-ID: <0401070026570.-1153572412@somehost.domainz.com> http://www.hw-server.com/test/sld_hws.html Take a look at the DIMM modules. Looks like a good candidate for a battery-powered portable VoIP/GSM encrypted cellphone. Add a GPRS modem or a cellphone (or, for landline version, a modem), a small display/keyboard, and eg. SpeakFreely with suitable session key handshake, stir, serve warm. Does it look like an usable way to have open and reasonably cheap ($160+cellphone+some parts around) portable secure telephone platform? Does anybody here have any experience with embedded computer hardware, who could confirm or deny this kind of hardware as bearing hope for this application? From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 7 03:20:28 2004 From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (Sarad AV) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:20:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <20040106202945.V29156-100000@localhost> Message-ID: <20040107112028.85084.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> > "Today, Bangalore stands ahead of Bay Area, San > Francisco and California, > with a lead of 20,000 techies, while employing a > total number of 1.5 lakh > engineers." I live in bangalore,those figures are correct. > However, the educational system has to be seen to be > fully appreciated. > I spent several months in Calcutta over a couple of > years. During at > least one visit there were riots at the university; > the papers reported > bodies hanging from trees. Many had been shot. > Same story: students > protested because they were stopped from openly > exchanging papers, > consulting books, or just chatting with friends > during examinations. Lets be a little fair here, just copying and just chatting during exams are malpractices, the students have much political support and relegious support in these places. As for openly consulting books durin exam,most of the universities don't conduct open book exams,except may be at the iit's.Its a malpractice,elsewhere. The university sends special squads appointed by the university itself to check exam malpractices, how ever if the students counter the squad with sickles and knifes and swords-it becomes a common practice that the invigilators get armed police protection. So,in a riot when the students are out to kill,very little can be done to protect themselves and people sadly,get killed. There are a few sensitive spots in india but where I am and in South India,we had no such encounters as yet. > Such education as occurred largely involved rote > learning, often based > on texts many years out of date. We learn the fundamentals of enginnering,the basic books of engg. are always the same,we may miss a few updates and advances,thats all. > My impression is that India has a few excellent > institutions and a vast > number of unbelievably bad schools. We dont the have resources like you have in the U.S. Sarath. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus From shaddack at ns.arachne.cz Tue Jan 6 21:37:53 2004 From: shaddack at ns.arachne.cz (Thomas Shaddack) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:37:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: Small embedded computer board? (SLD PXA 255 DIMM) In-Reply-To: <3FFB9886.2090704@ntnation.com> References: <0401070026570.-1153572412@somehost.domainz.com> <3FFB9886.2090704@ntnation.com> Message-ID: <0401070631310.0@somehost.domainz.com> I was considering this avenue as well. Would be something between good and perfect, but the cost is prohibitive :( Also, there are security concerns with multi-purpose devices, as they are more complicated and more prone to exploitation; secure devices should have as few functions as possible without impairing the usability. Another concern is the ease of use. PDA interface is for high-tech-skilled users. A secure telephone shouldn't be significantly more difficult to use than a standard telephone. If a device has to be mass-accepted, it has to be simple and cheap. Which is why I look for cores for embeddable computer cores, like the PXA one. Thanks a lot for the suggestion, though. Implementations running on Zaurus could be a way to cover another segment of the secure telephony market. :) On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, shrevie at ntnation.com wrote: > > A much better choice would be a Sharp Zaurus C860... see specs here: > > http://www.dynamism.com/zaurus/ > > Has 64 meg of RAM, a CPU as fast as the one mentioned below, and a Linux > distro based on Debian..... also built in standard 2.5mm headphone out > and an EXTERNAL mic in.... hard to imagine a better platform for > SpeakFreely. > > If you want to get fancy, throw in a small form factor CF bluetooth card > (the 860 has a CF slot) and you could bond to a Bluetooth cellphone.... > Speakfreely without wires :) > > Moe > > Thomas Shaddack wrote: > > > http://www.hw-server.com/test/sld_hws.html > > Take a look at the DIMM modules. > > > > Looks like a good candidate for a battery-powered portable VoIP/GSM > > encrypted cellphone. Add a GPRS modem or a cellphone (or, for landline > > version, a modem), a small display/keyboard, and eg. SpeakFreely with > > suitable session key handshake, stir, serve warm. > > > > Does it look like an usable way to have open and reasonably cheap > > ($160+cellphone+some parts around) portable secure telephone platform? > > Does anybody here have any experience with embedded computer hardware, > > who could confirm or deny this kind of hardware as bearing hope for this > > application? From s.schear at comcast.net Wed Jan 7 10:17:48 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:17:48 -0800 Subject: Political Compass Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040107101131.05967858@mail.comcast.net> A simple and interesting test to determine where people (its tuned to American issues) fit on a simple 2D graph of Left vs. Right, Authoritarian vs. Libertarian axis. http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/ Results are compared with estimates of current/recent political-religious leaders. No idea how accurate it is but my own results are pretty much in keeping with expectations: Left/Right 3.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.97 steve A foolish Constitutional inconsistency is the hobgoblin of freedom, adored by judges and demagogue statesmen. - Steve Schear From jdd at dixons.org Wed Jan 7 06:10:55 2004 From: jdd at dixons.org (Jim Dixon) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:10:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <20040107112028.85084.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040107134539.S29156-100000@localhost> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Sarad AV wrote: > > "Today, Bangalore stands ahead of Bay Area, San > > Francisco and California, > > with a lead of 20,000 techies, while employing a > > total number of 1.5 lakh > > engineers." > > I live in bangalore,those figures are correct. Meaning that 150,000 engineers are employed in Bangalore? Does this include software engineers, HTML coders, programmers, computer scientists? Does it include say railway engineers, truck mechanics, the guy who fixes your air conditioning? The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work with tools can be called engineers but people who write software generally are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for example, in certain parts of the United States (Texas comes to mind), you cannot describe yourself as an engineer without being certified as such by the state. You can be a mechanical or civil engineer, but not a software engineer, because there is no relevant test. One of the consequences of this is that Texas vastly undercounts its engineers. The civil/mechanical/etc engineers have lobbied successfully for such restrictions on the use of the job title in other states (and Canada?). There are frequent articles in ACM journals complaining about this; people who have been software engineers for decades are breaking the law if they describe themselves as such in Texas. In the same vein, what does 'techie' mean in the article quoted? When the article says that Bangalore has a lead of 20,000 techies over California, exactly what is this supposed to mean? For years Japan led the world in the use of robots because they counted as robots devices that were not counted as such in the USA and Europe, simple pick-and-place arms. I suspect that much the same thing is going on here. -- Jim Dixon jdd at dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 12:21:29 2004 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:21:29 +0000 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <20040107134539.S29156-100000@localhost> References: <20040107134539.S29156-100000@localhost> Message-ID: <3FFC6A49.5000409@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Jim Dixon wrote: > The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work > with tools can be called engineers but people who write software generally > are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for example, in I have had jobs as a "software engineer" in the UK and since the dot com bubble this hasn't been an uncommon job title. The UK tends to follow US fashions very closely importing in titles like CEO and CTO and the term "software engineer" is no different. As for your comments that "my impression is that India has a few excellent institutions and a vast number of unbelievably bad schools" I suspect this is true but applies equally to the UK and USA and indeed any country with a university system. Neither is graduating from a top engineering school such as Stanford any automatic guarantee of quality as anyone who has worked with these people knows. India has an excellent tradition in mathematics and some of the best software engineers I have worked with in the UK have been Indian graduates, since it's the most enterprising and highly qualified ones which tend to emigrate. O Reilly Associates recognise the importance of the Indian market by suppplying special low priced editions of their books to the Indian market. They are occasionally available as "grey imports" in the UK. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott From sfurlong at acmenet.net Wed Jan 7 18:03:32 2004 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: 07 Jan 2004 21:03:32 -0500 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <3FFC97F2.30807@tightrope.demon.co.uk> References: <20040107202515.H29156-100000@localhost> <3FFC97F2.30807@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1073527412.11897.15.camel@daft> On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 18:36, Steve Mynott wrote: > Jim Dixon wrote: > > The term 'software engineer' is becoming less common in the States these > > days. I have watched the job title wax and wane for more than twenty > > five years. I think that it was most fashionable in the early 1980s. > > Any Americans care to comment on this? In the mid-1980s, the US Department of Defense, at the time the largest software customer in the world, told its vendors that 10% (I think) of their software development staff must be software engineers. Along came the HR fairies with their magic wands and poof! almost all software developers were software engineers. The SE job title has ebbed and flowed, as Jim said. It means little other than "programmer" in the US. As Jim said in another message, almost all states restrict the use of the term "engineer" to those who are licensed. But most don't really enforce that rule, so HR departments are free to give their programming staff the glorious title. However, contrary to Jim's statement, Texas does license software engineers. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering .) I don't know if any other states license SEs. Regards, SRF, degreed Software Engineer (hooray, me) From jdd at dixons.org Wed Jan 7 13:05:59 2004 From: jdd at dixons.org (Jim Dixon) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:05:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <3FFC6A49.5000409@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040107202515.H29156-100000@localhost> On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Steve Mynott wrote: > > The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work > > with tools can be called engineers but people who write software generally > > are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for example, in > > I have had jobs as a "software engineer" in the UK and since the dot com > bubble this hasn't been an uncommon job title. Go to Jobserve and count. I did, about a year ago. I found 612 references in a 5-day period, as compared with 1651 for Java and 1889 for C++. My point is not that there are no software engineers in the world, but that the term "engineer" is often used quite loosely and means vastly different things in different places. > The UK tends to follow US fashions very closely importing in titles like > CEO and CTO and the term "software engineer" is no different. The term 'software engineer' is becoming less common in the States these days. I have watched the job title wax and wane for more than twenty five years. I think that it was most fashionable in the early 1980s. If it isn't clear, I usually describe myself as a software engineer. I belong to the ACM (www.acm.org) and follow their articles discussing software engineering as a profession with a mild interest. > As for your comments that "my impression is that India has a few > excellent institutions and a vast number of unbelievably bad schools" I > suspect this is true but applies equally to the UK and USA and indeed > any country with a university system. Neither is graduating from a top > engineering school such as Stanford any automatic guarantee of quality > as anyone who has worked with these people knows. You don't understand. I have never ever heard of any school in the UK or the United States, no matter how bad, where degrees are routinely and rather openly sold, or where riots on campus, usually in response to examinations, frequently involve lethal weapons and deaths. "Unbelievably bad" means just that. I have visited India many times and have spent at least two years there in total. I went there of my own free will, travelling. And I spent enough time in various places (at least several months each in Calcutta, Delhi, Bombay, Madras, as well as many smaller and less well-known places) to have a decent overall understanding of the country. > India has an excellent tradition in mathematics and some of the best > software engineers I have worked with in the UK have been Indian > graduates, since it's the most enterprising and highly qualified ones > which tend to emigrate. India tends to stunning extremes. Many amazingly good mathematicians have come out of India; my experience is that this is strongly regional, with the best coming from Bengal in the north and then the Bangalore/ Madras/north of there region in the southeast. But you have to see those extremes. There is nothing like stepping out of a Calcutta coffee house, after having a wonderfully intelligent conversation, into the appalling streets. I think that any attempt to describe life in Calcutta as I knew it would be met with disbelief. Go there. Don't stay in a tourist hotel. It takes at least a few weeks for your eyes to adjust, for you to take in just how very very different the subcontinent is. Then you might go a little mad and run away, or you might just decide that you like the place ;-) > O Reilly Associates recognise the importance of the Indian market by > suppplying special low priced editions of their books to the Indian > market. They are occasionally available as "grey imports" in the UK. Yes. This has been going on for a long long time. Most major publishers do it. I used to buy cheap technical books myself in India, Hong Kong, Japan, etc. Although they tend to be out of date, there are often very good buys. I still have some on my shelves. I am not India-bashing. I just think that the people who are so concerned about the threat of India wiping out the US software industry are uhm let's say a bit unrealistic. It might be a concern 30 years from now, although I am skeptical even of that. -- Jim Dixon jdd at dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 15:36:18 2004 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:36:18 +0000 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <20040107202515.H29156-100000@localhost> References: <20040107202515.H29156-100000@localhost> Message-ID: <3FFC97F2.30807@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Jim Dixon wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Steve Mynott wrote: > > >>>The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work >>>with tools can be called engineers but people who write software generally >>>are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for example, in >> >>I have had jobs as a "software engineer" in the UK and since the dot com >>bubble this hasn't been an uncommon job title. > > > Go to Jobserve and count. I did, about a year ago. I found 612 > references in a 5-day period, as compared with 1651 for Java and 1889 > for C++. What to call people who write software is problematic. "software engineer" is a job title like "programmer" or "developer" (often with senior or junior as a prefix). Senior meaning that you get paid a little more since you have more experience rather than being a manager. I never had a programming job where the language was specified in the title. I am talking here of permanent work rather than contract style. Searching on jobserve (the main UK IT job site) I get 3123 hits for developer 2009 engineer 806 software developer 803 software engineer 766 programmer 201 software programmer So programmer is the unpopular job title not engineer, probably because it seems to have a bit of an outdated 1970s punched and magnetic tape type reputation. > My point is not that there are no software engineers in the world, but > that the term "engineer" is often used quite loosely and means vastly > different things in different places. Agreed > The term 'software engineer' is becoming less common in the States these > days. I have watched the job title wax and wane for more than twenty > five years. I think that it was most fashionable in the early 1980s. Any Americans care to comment on this? > You don't understand. I have never ever heard of any school in the UK or > the United States, no matter how bad, where degrees are routinely and > rather openly sold, or where riots on campus, usually in response to > examinations, frequently involve lethal weapons and deaths. > "Unbelievably bad" means just that. I think people can still get a good education even in unstable and poorer nations. You don't need to spend many dollars to run Linux and print out downloaded PDFs. There were campus deaths in the American and French student riots of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Oxford and Cambridge Universities openly sell masters degrees. The examinations systems in many British influenced countries in the east resemble 1950s UK ones in their high standards and there doesn't seem to be much doubt that British examinations have been dumbed down since the 1980s to improve pass percentages. It doesn't seem to me likely a doctor's son in Bangalore is automatically going to get a worse education than the average street kid in South Central LA or Hackney. The Asperger enhanced asian engineering, physics and maths geeks shut in their rooms with an internet link won't be the ones running around killing people. They are more likely to be hacking NASA via abuse of their local inband trunk signaling and gaining an excellent education in C buffers, UNIX and international telecommunications systems. And hopefully subscribing to this list and reading Murray Rothbard. > I am not India-bashing. I just think that the people who are so concerned > about the threat of India wiping out the US software industry are uhm > let's say a bit unrealistic. It might be a concern 30 years from now, > although I am skeptical even of that. Agreed. They will get a bigger slice of a bigger pie but still a smaller serving than the US. I remember the Americans being scared about the "Japanese Are Coming With Their Expert Systems" hype of the early 1980s. And they never came despite many yen being wasted by MITI. The only currently popular Japanese computer language Ruby is pretty much a copy of a European one (python). -- 1024/D9C69DF9 Steve Mynott From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 8 00:19:44 2004 From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (Sarad AV) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 00:19:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <20040107134539.S29156-100000@localhost> Message-ID: <20040108081944.22333.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Dixon wrote: > Meaning that 150,000 engineers are employed in > Bangalore? Does this > include software engineers, HTML coders, > programmers, computer scientists? Computer scientists are very few. Most engineering colleges and teachers emphasis simple on coding. If you know c/c++/oracle etc.. and good analytical skills and communication skills- one can get a job in bangalore if you have a computer engg. degree. The math education system from schools to colleges is pathetic. They simply give us the final formula,they dont bother to derive the equation or give any insight or intution of the problem. Most south indian students are weak at math. I see Steve Mynott's comment. Thats the cream,who usually emigrate. You get to see some of the very best. > Does it include say railway engineers, truck > mechanics, the guy who fixes > your air conditioning? no,they don't.These are usual who do diploma. These people in india have better practial experience and aptitude than engineers. Software engineers are given a proper degree by the university. > In the same vein, what does 'techie' mean in the > article quoted? When the > article says that Bangalore has a lead of 20,000 > techies over California, > exactly what is this supposed to mean? It would mean that bangalore has around 16000 to 17000 programmers.The other 3000 would be computer scientists.By computer scientists,I mean those people who has indepth knowledge of theory of algorithms,more of theorotical computer science.They can present you with the final algorithm and all the others have to do is code it. Sarath. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus From mv at cdc.gov Thu Jan 8 11:34:37 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:34:37 -0800 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India Message-ID: <3FFDB0CD.8107BD0E@cdc.gov> At 01:27 PM 1/6/04 -0800, Steve Schear wrote: >Try building and finding a place to launch an amateur rocket (it can be >done, but now only with the greatest of regulatory red tape). I did. Some >of my group's rockets achieved heights over 100,000 ft (confirmed by >Edward's AFB radar.) Yeah, but could they track an IR source :-) From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Thu Jan 8 08:59:44 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:59:44 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment Message-ID: The great American experiment finally fizzled on December 1, 2003, when the US Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal from a 9th Federal Circuit decision which gutted the Second Amendment. It was a nice run - over two hundred years. As of December 1, 2003, the US Supreme Court issued its ruling, refusing to hear an appeal in the case of Silveira vs. Lockyer. That made Silveira the law of the land, you see. You might think that the Silveria case was about the definition of an bassault weaponb but youbd be mistaken. In Silveira, the 9th Circuit Court made the following pronouncement: there is no individual right to bear arms contained within the Second Amendment to the US Constitution. That means that no American citizen, since December 1, 2003, has a fundamental right to possess a firearm. http://www.conspiracypenpal.com/columns/arms.htm http://www.keepandbeararms.com/Mancus/silveira.asp Gun enthusiasts (especially those who are members of the National Rifle Association http://www.nra.org and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership http://www.jpfo.org) may have now reached a crossroads. They have spent years and hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying politicians and the public to support their view that in the US the right to own firearms is granted to individuals and not state militias (a view I completely support). But now, with the Supreme Court refusing to hear their appeal of the 9th Circuit decision in Silveira v. Lockyer, they are faced with the likelihood that Congress and state leglislatures will feel free to further restrict gun ownership, perhaps even eliminate it over time, as has happened in other countries. Further appeals to Congress and the states are no longer a sure bet. The soap box and the ballot box have been throughly tried, is it now time to get out the ammo box? From peter.thoenen at email-tc3.5sigcmd.army.mil Thu Jan 8 04:55:09 2004 From: peter.thoenen at email-tc3.5sigcmd.army.mil (Thoenen, Peter Mr CN Sprint SFOR) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:55:09 +0100 Subject: Current Operational Nodes? Message-ID: <3FFD532D.2000007@email-tc3.5sigcmd.army.mil> Cross posting on multiple nodes since none seem reliable. Now that LNE is shutting down ... are there actually any other reliable operational nodes? Have subscribed to minder.net, algebra.com, and ds.pro-ns.net all in the last two weeks to no avail. Some return subscribed message but never forward actual traffic (just spam). Think I actually got one or two operational messages from algebra but thats it. Do we want another node? I can throw one up if wanted / needed / trusted (being a contractor for 'the man' and all such bullshit jazz) or do we just want to let this list die? Not a big fan of newsgroups. If wanted, will host offsite on a non-gov commercial server. Personal politics aside, its an enjoyable list to lurk on :) -Peter From jdd at dixons.org Thu Jan 8 06:06:18 2004 From: jdd at dixons.org (Jim Dixon) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:06:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <1073527412.11897.15.camel@daft> Message-ID: <20040108131949.D29156-100000@localhost> On 7 Jan 2004, Steve Furlong wrote: > contrary to Jim's statement, Texas does license software engineers. (See > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering .) I don't know if any > other states license SEs. Quoting your own source: "Donald Bagart of Texas became the first professional software engineer in the U.S. on September 4, 1998 or October 9, 1998. As of May 2002, Texas had issued 44 professional enginering licenses for software engineers. "The professional movement has been criticized for many reasons. "* Licensed software engineers must learn years of physics and chemistry to pass the exams, which is irrelevant to most software practitioners." This is exactly what the ACM gripes about. In order to use the title "engineer" in the Great State of Texas you have to pass examinations relevant to classical engineering (civil, mechanical, etc) but wholly irrelevant to software engineering. -- Jim Dixon jdd at dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure From bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk Thu Jan 8 12:08:21 2004 From: bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk (ken) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 20:08:21 +0000 Subject: Engineers in U.S. vs. India In-Reply-To: <3FFC6A49.5000409@tightrope.demon.co.uk> References: <20040107134539.S29156-100000@localhost> <3FFC6A49.5000409@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <3FFDB8B5.7000907@students.bbk.ac.uk> Steve Mynott wrote: > Jim Dixon wrote: > >> The term 'engineer' is far from precise; in the UK most people who work >> with tools can be called engineers but people who write software >> generally >> are NOT called engineers. There are further complications: for >> example, in > > > I have had jobs as a "software engineer" in the UK and since the dot com > bubble this hasn't been an uncommon job title. > > The UK tends to follow US fashions very closely importing in titles like > CEO and CTO and the term "software engineer" is no different. Yes, but... the word "engineer" as used here by most people measns someone who fixes machines. If I go to somebody's ofice and they say that I'm "the engineer" pride makes me say no. I'm not an engineer, I'm a programmer. Different think entirely If I had to describe what I do I'd call myself a "systems programmer", even though that isn't exactly what my job title is. I'd avoid the word "engineer" because to most people it implies the bloke of the street who knows how to put a replacement PC card in, but to a few it implies some professional status and formal discipline, neither of which I have had anythign to do with. From s.schear at comcast.net Fri Jan 9 09:05:52 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:05:52 -0800 Subject: Welcome to America. Please give us the finger. Smile for the camera. Now please get the hell out Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040109090446.05208f18@mail.comcast.net> Scenes From A Sad Airport By Mark Morford Look at those eyes. Perturbed and bemused and just a little furious. Look at those eyes as the baffled woman from east Texas stares down at the table as the security agent rifles through her luggage and pulls out the contents for all to see. And out pops the skimpy latex thong and the anal beads and the Astroglide and the smallish travel dildo that isn't really a dildo at all but is really a "sexual-education device," because, as everyone knows, dildos are completely illegal in Texas. But not guns. Guns are mandatory. Note how she notes the irony. Note how she considers suing for embarrassment and humiliation and for the sheer idiocy of it all. Note how the security agent mumbles something snide and derogatory. Note how we, as a paranoid nation, are just confused and sad and how our airports have become these comical circus sideshows, invasive and racist and draconian and pornographic all in the name of, what was it again? Protection? For our own good? Is that it? And look there, look how that conservative Christian U.S. congressman is just so red faced and enraged when they search through his manly black Samsonite carry-on and find, well, not just a nice new Bible and clean white Jockey underwear and assorted envelopes of cash from the director of Destroy Gay Marriage Now! of Colorado Springs, Colo. Look there, just under the argyle sweaters and the signed head shot from Pat Robertson, at the stash of sticky Honcho magazines and some Hello Kitty Speedos and, lo and behold, the metal in the congressman's boots induces an unfortunate backroom strip search, where what do we see but the assorted bright red welts of spankdom as incurred from Mistress Carlita's Pleasure Bunker in downtown Phoenix, from the night before. Oh, Congressman. Do you hear that? That screaming? Of course you do. Just another outraged mother of three, her appalled shouts echoing all the way to the food court as LAX security gropes the living hell out of her stunned 2-year-old daughter after the tot's teddy bear appeared to have some odd-looking wiring in its cute fuzzy little arms. And the mother up and slaps the scowling groping security agent and alarms are sounded and guns are drawn and children are screaming and Spongebob backpacks tumble to the ground and spill their bright happy contents all over the stained tiles in terrible slow motion, like a bad Tarantino outtake. And thus were lines held up and 16 flights from Dulles and O'Hare and JFK delayed for nine hours, causing a domino-effect 27-hour backup systemwide and thusly pumping yet another enormous and savage dose of frustrated rage and angst and sighing ennui into another artery of the cultural bloodstream. Look. Look there. See the hobbled, 86-year-old man forced to put down his cane and remove his threadbare belt to pass through the metal detector. Terrorists are everywhere! Bush said so! We can't be too sure! Do you have metal pins in your hip, sir? Can you please remove them or something? Let us watch in humiliated shame as he struggles to keep his pants from falling down as it looks, to all appearances, like he's being led though a scanner to some horrific prison cell where he will be fed old oatmeal and dangerous drugs in harsh fluorescent concrete rooms, when all he's trying to do is fly to Poughkeepsie for his granddaughter's third wedding. Because God knows you just can't tell who might be a terrorist these days, and you can't be too careful, because they could indeed be anyone at all from anywhere at all, including but not at all limited to white Lutheran octogenarians from the Shady Pines retirement-condo complex in Butte, Mont. Not to mention them dang furriners. Let us now welcome the overwhelmed visitor from China, or Latvia, or Johannesburg, or Brazil, or India, or (heaven forefend) Turkey. It's OK, come on out of that plane. Ignore the stun guns and the growling dogs. America loves you. Let us now note how our fair visitor walks into the American security miasma feeling like she is entering one big draconian maze of weird overlit American racism and paranoia, as all visitors from all "suspicious" countries have their photos taken and their fingers imprinted and their self-respect jolted and their identities filed for 20 years by the FBI, just in case. Welcome to America, foreign traveler. Please hold still and place your finger here and smile for the camera and enjoy your first taste of our trademark, wickedly ironic and hypocritical joke about America being the land of the free. Is that weird necklace a religious symbol or something? Are those beads filled with white-hot hate for our glorious freedoms and our 24-hour Safeways and our love of low-rise jeans on teenage girls? Are you in some sort of cult? Repeat after us: Bring us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to have their spirits snapped like chicken bones and be made to feel as if they are all, by default, criminals and thieves and Bush's "gol-dang guilty durty heathen furriners." Thank you. Please proceed like mad cow-infested cattle to the next airport screening agent. Just a couple questions at this point. Do you have any nasty homemade bombs or lethal biotoxic intentions or rampant simmering hatreds of George W. Bush on your person at this time? Damn right you don't. Now please proceed to the painful urine-sample room to have your dignity forcibly removed. Souvenir? Look closer. Look domestic. See how so many Americans standing in all the various airport lines for 2.7 hours seem to just sigh and suck it up. See how they all cast their eyes down and tolerate the multiple driver's-license checks and the general insanity and the obvious government-sponsored invasions of privacy and the happy perky assaults on our civil liberties because, well, it's for our own good, right? All in the name of inducing a bogus feeling of protection and safety and never you mind America's hilarious gaping arcade of exploitable opportunities for terrorism, from our huge wide-open shipping ports to the intricately distributed unprotected food supply to our antiquated water systems to a thousand other ridiculously obvious apertures. And never mind that even tiny raging splinter-cell terrorists aren't so stupid as to try the same vile hijack stunt twice. And never you mind that none of this would've stopped any of the 9/11 thugs. But oh yes, let's fingerprint old ladies from Latvia. That oughta do it. Wait, you're from Andorra? Wonderful! You're perfectly OK and we need no fingerprints. Come on in. Ditto Australia. And Austria. And Belgium, Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, San Marino, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the UK, Portugal and Singapore. Hey, you couldn't possibly hate America enough to wish us harm. Could you? Besides, we stop only swarthy Third World types and guys with scary-looking beards and unpronounceable names that sound like rare kidney diseases. Welcome, all, to the new-millennium American airport. Observe the perfectly imperfect microcosm of new American ideals and values, all about isolationism and quiet cancerous paranoia and a huge increase in government employment and expenditure and bureaucracy and very sorry but you can't bring that coffee into the boarding area. Welcome to the all-American fear of the Other, coupled with a sad acceptance that this is the way it is and the way it will be for years and years to come. Please remove your shoes. And your belt. And your watch. And your self-respect. Bush forever. More war in '04. Enjoy your flight. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Jan 9 06:58:41 2004 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:58:41 -0500 Subject: Singers jailed for lyrics Message-ID: From: ken [mailto:bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk] >Trei, Peter wrote: >> Bill Stewart wrote: >>> Michael Kalus wrote: >>>>>>Certain symbols (e.g. Swastika) are forbidden as well. >>>As Tim pointed out, the Swastika symbol had long use before the >>>Nazis picked it up. >[...] >> Vaguely related.... >>[... swastika censorship in NYC subway tile floor elided...] >At least one London Underground station has swastika patterns in >its tiles, and apparently did through the War. >India House in London, the offices of the Indian High Commission >(Commonwealth-speak for "embassy"), has swastikas in the >scupltures on the outside walls, and also in murals inside. They >would have been there right through WW2, the building is from the >1920s and early 30s. I have no idea if anyone covered them up. >http://www.hcilondon.net/aboutus/history-indiahouse.html >Its in the Aldwych, right in the middle of London, passed by >millions of people every year. (Including me on my way to work). >I've never heard of anyone complaining. I used to walk by India House on my way to college (I went to Kings College London), and I noticed them too. I believe at least one British government ministry used the swastika as a symbol in the early 30's - but can't remember which. There was a bit of a fad for 'runic' symbols back then. Peter From bmm at minder.net Fri Jan 9 08:22:35 2004 From: bmm at minder.net (Brian Minder) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:22:35 -0500 Subject: Current Operational Nodes? In-Reply-To: <20040109132146.Q29156-100000@localhost> References: <3FFD532D.2000007@email-tc3.5sigcmd.army.mil> <20040109132146.Q29156-100000@localhost> Message-ID: <20040109162235.GA99370@waste.minder.net> On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 01:23:44PM +0000, Jim Dixon wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Thoenen, Peter Mr CN Sprint SFOR wrote: > > > Cross posting on multiple nodes since none seem reliable. > > > > Now that LNE is shutting down ... are there actually any other reliable > > operational nodes? Have subscribed to minder.net, algebra.com, and > > ds.pro-ns.net all in the last two weeks to no avail. Some return > > subscribed message but never forward actual traffic (just spam). Think > > I have had similar experience. > > > I actually got one or two operational messages from algebra but thats it. > > > > Do we want another node? > > Yes, preferably one with spam filters. > > > I can throw one up if wanted / needed / > > Sounds good. > > > trusted (being a contractor for 'the man' and all such bullshit jazz) or > > do we just want to let this list die? Not a big fan of newsgroups. > > > > If wanted, will host offsite on a non-gov commercial server. Personal > > politics aside, its an enjoyable list to lurk on :) cypherpunks at minder.net is an unfiltered node and as such receives a fair amount of spam. cypherpunks-moderated at minder.net is a by-hand moderated node. Some other folks here have expressed interest in using Eric's auto-moderating setup at a new node. Thanks, -Brian -- bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 From bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk Fri Jan 9 04:06:47 2004 From: bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk (ken) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 12:06:47 +0000 Subject: Sources and Sinks In-Reply-To: <3FF6C88A.8197.1ABE94BC@localhost> References: <3FF6C88A.8197.1ABE94BC@localhost> Message-ID: <3FFE9957.7010306@students.bbk.ac.uk> James A. Donald wrote: > -- > On 3 Jan 2004 at 8:09, Michael Kalus wrote: > >>Yes, the way this usually works is that the government builds >>the road, then sells it to a private company for some money >>and then the upkeep is handled by the company. >> >>It is rather seldom that someone builds a road for a business >>venture. > > > Used to happen all the time, before governments became so > intrusive. Not that often. The usual way of making & fixing roads before the late 19th century was - and had been for centuries - collective. At best some charity or other got people together to help out. At worst the local lord of the manor or big landowner forced a sufficiently large number of peasants to do the job. In lots of places landowners had the duty to maintain roads across their property, and the government would force them to do it. There are lots - many thousands I think - of legal records in England way back to the middle ages A bit different in the western parts of USA if only because so many roads there are new, but even then the vast majority either were started by government (or some other non-commercial organisation) or else taken over by government after built. Canals and railways were mostly built by private business - and mostly came into public ownership when they went broke, often bailing out the failed investors. In both Europe and North America. From bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk Fri Jan 9 04:26:26 2004 From: bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk (ken) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 12:26:26 +0000 Subject: Singers jailed for lyrics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FFE9DF2.8080806@students.bbk.ac.uk> Trei, Peter wrote: > Bill Stewart wrote: >> Michael Kalus wrote: >>>>>Certain symbols (e.g. Swastika) are forbidden as well. >>As Tim pointed out, the Swastika symbol had long use before the >>Nazis picked it up. [...] > Vaguely related.... > > I used to live in upper Manhattan. One of the subway stops I > used was the 190th on the IND ("A" train). This burrows deep > under Washington Heights, and has two entrances - a long > tunnel which slopes *down* from the station to an exit near > Broadway, and an elevator up to Fort Washington Avenue. This > section of the line opened in 1932. > > The floor of the vestibule of the upper elevator lobby is > laid with geometric patterns in red, white, and black terra > cotta tiles, and when I moved there in the late 70's I was > amused to note that the pattern included 4 swastikas, in > black tiles against a white background, about 4 inches across. > > Sometime in the late 80's or early 90's, the swastikas where > chisled out, and the square areas where they had been crudely > filled with concrete. > > Ft. Washington Ave by that time had long been an area heavily > populated by immigrant Russian Jews. I often wondered > exactly what chain of events led to this vandalism. At least one London Underground station has swastika patterns in its tiles, and apparently did through the War. India House in London, the offices of the Indian High Commission (Commonwealth-speak for "embassy"), has swastikas in the scupltures on the outside walls, and also in murals inside. They would have been there right through WW2, the building is from the 1920s and early 30s. I have no idea if anyone covered them up. http://www.hcilondon.net/aboutus/history-indiahouse.html Its in the Aldwych, right in the middle of London, passed by millions of people every year. (Including me on my way to work). I've never heard of anyone complaining. From jdd at dixons.org Fri Jan 9 05:23:44 2004 From: jdd at dixons.org (Jim Dixon) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:23:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Current Operational Nodes? In-Reply-To: <3FFD532D.2000007@email-tc3.5sigcmd.army.mil> Message-ID: <20040109132146.Q29156-100000@localhost> On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Thoenen, Peter Mr CN Sprint SFOR wrote: > Cross posting on multiple nodes since none seem reliable. > > Now that LNE is shutting down ... are there actually any other reliable > operational nodes? Have subscribed to minder.net, algebra.com, and > ds.pro-ns.net all in the last two weeks to no avail. Some return > subscribed message but never forward actual traffic (just spam). Think I have had similar experience. > I actually got one or two operational messages from algebra but thats it. > > Do we want another node? Yes, preferably one with spam filters. > I can throw one up if wanted / needed / Sounds good. > trusted (being a contractor for 'the man' and all such bullshit jazz) or > do we just want to let this list die? Not a big fan of newsgroups. > > If wanted, will host offsite on a non-gov commercial server. Personal > politics aside, its an enjoyable list to lurk on :) -- Jim Dixon jdd at dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Fri Jan 9 13:57:46 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:57:46 -0500 Subject: FBI Weighs in on VoIP Message-ID: Some mention of crypto, too. http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?site=lightreading&doc_id=45695 _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Fri Jan 9 17:37:01 2004 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:37:01 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> At 08:59 AM 1/8/2004, Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net wrote: >The great American experiment finally fizzled on December 1, 2003, when >the US Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal from a 9th Federal Circuit >decision which gutted the Second Amendment. It was a nice run - over two >hundred years. > >As of December 1, 2003, the US Supreme Court issued its ruling, refusing >to hear an appeal in the case of Silveira vs. Lockyer. That made Silveira >the law of the land, you see. No, that's absolutely incorrect. Every conclusion you reach which depends on that flawed premise is suspect. >Further appeals to Congress and the states are no longer a sure bet. The >soap box and the ballot box have been throughly tried, is it now time to >get out the ammo box? You're forgetting the jury box. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at parrhesia.com From measl at mfn.org Fri Jan 9 16:49:11 2004 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:49:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Current Operational Nodes? In-Reply-To: <20040109162235.GA99370@waste.minder.net> References: <3FFD532D.2000007@email-tc3.5sigcmd.army.mil> <20040109132146.Q29156-100000@localhost> <20040109162235.GA99370@waste.minder.net> Message-ID: <20040109184629.K83840@mx1.mfn.org> On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Brian Minder wrote: > On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 01:23:44PM +0000, Jim Dixon wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Thoenen, Peter Mr CN Sprint SFOR wrote: > > > > > Cross posting on multiple nodes since none seem reliable. > > > > > > Now that LNE is shutting down ... are there actually any other reliable > > > operational nodes? Have subscribed to minder.net, algebra.com, and > > > ds.pro-ns.net all in the last two weeks to no avail. Some return > > > subscribed message but never forward actual traffic (just spam). Think > > > > I have had similar experience. > > > > > I actually got one or two operational messages from algebra but thats it. > > > > > > Do we want another node? > > > > Yes, preferably one with spam filters. > > > > > I can throw one up if wanted / needed / > > > > Sounds good. > > > > > trusted (being a contractor for 'the man' and all such bullshit jazz) or > > > do we just want to let this list die? Not a big fan of newsgroups. > > > > > > If wanted, will host offsite on a non-gov commercial server. Personal > > > politics aside, its an enjoyable list to lurk on :) > > cypherpunks at minder.net is an unfiltered node and as such receives a fair > amount of spam. cypherpunks-moderated at minder.net is a by-hand moderated > node. Some other folks here have expressed interest in using Eric's > auto-moderating setup at a new node. I asked Eric for a copy of the scripts intending to put up a node myself, but my current schedule is already so crammed that I simply cant find the time to *just doit* :-( Reliable connections I have: multihomed box sitting on high BW circuits, time I don't. If someone is willing to put up a node with Eric's filters, I'll be happy to donate the box/BW. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm From gbroiles at parrhesia.com Fri Jan 9 21:17:23 2004 From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:17:23 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109205609.0390c0b8@miles.parrhesia.com> At 08:10 PM 1/9/2004, you wrote: > > >Further appeals to Congress and the states are no longer a sure bet. The > > >soap box and the ballot box have been throughly tried, is it now time to > > >get out the ammo box? > > > > You're forgetting the jury box. > >Are you forgetting that the Fat Lady on the jury, at least in the 9th >Circuit, already sang? Um, no, it didn't. There was no jury in Silveira - Silveira was a constitutional challenge to legislation, which is a question of law decided by judges, not a fact question decided by juries. Did you actually read the opinion, or just read some screwball summary of it? >In Cases v. United States, 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942) the Supreme Court >[...] Nope. That opinion was written, as the citation indicated, by the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit, not the Supreme Court. > unbelievably held that U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939) had not > intended "to formulate a general rule" regarding which arms were > protected by the Second Amendment and therefore many types of arms were > not protected. While I do think that the 2nd Amendment does, in fact, protect an individual right to keep and bear arms, I think that the 1st Circuit's reasoning re _Miller_ in _Cases_ is actually quite reasonable. The opinion points out that interpreting _Miller_ so that it says the 2nd Amendment means that Congress can regulate firearms, but only ineffective or useless ones, is nonsensical. While I don't think the Ninth Circuit reads _Miller_ in a reasonable fashion, I don't think the "only useless weapons may be regulated" is an especially rational interpretation of it, either. >A plain reading of Miller meant only weapons with non-military application >could be regulated by Congress and that could not be right because it >challenged the 'right' of government to have a force monopoly. So the >Court's reasoning was that the Founders could not have meant for the >federal government to have any effective deterrent to its tyranny from the >citizenry. Even after absorbing the opinion, I cannot fathom how >convoluted a reading of the historical record those on bench needed in >order to arrive at their conclusion. Pretzel logic indeed! Yes, that is an unreasonable conclusion to reach. It is also unreasonable to conclude that the 2nd Amendment means that no regulation of weapons is constitutionally permissible. Even the 1st Amendment - which contains the words "shall make no law" - is interpreted to allow some regulation of speech. (e.g., shouting theater in a crowded fire, etc.) -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at parrhesia.com From mkalus at thedarkerside.to Fri Jan 9 19:11:40 2004 From: mkalus at thedarkerside.to (Michael Kalus) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:11:40 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 9-Jan-04, at 8:37 PM, Greg Broiles wrote: >> Further appeals to Congress and the states are no longer a sure bet. >> The soap box and the ballot box have been throughly tried, is it now >> time to get out the ammo box? > > You're forgetting the jury box. no he is not... It's is a rather limited thinking. The USSR as well as several other countries came down when the masses went on the street. No guns necessary. - -- Michael "What fun is it? Why all that hard, exhausting work? Where does it get you? Where's the good of it? It is one of the strange ironies of this strange life that those who work the hardest, who subject themselves to the strictest discipline, who give up certain pleasurable things in order to achieve a goal, are the happiest..." - --Brutus Hamilton, Coach of Olympic Track Team, 1952 Helsinki Olympics -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP/9tcmlCnxcrW2uuEQK5xACfQPCJhRV5OjbM0zwcW0e0isN9swkAn1AN Ea4UCDapxyfN8JR3gqXILjWk =BIgz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Fri Jan 9 20:10:14 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:10:14 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment Message-ID: > >Further appeals to Congress and the states are no longer a sure bet. The > >soap box and the ballot box have been throughly tried, is it now time to > >get out the ammo box? > > You're forgetting the jury box. Are you forgetting that the Fat Lady on the jury, at least in the 9th Circuit, already sang? That's how we got to where we are. Could other juries in other cases decide differently? Sure. But why wait any more than Congress or some States may wait? In two key cases last century the logic of the Supreme Court or lack of it was clearly revealed as they tried to somehow interpret away historical record and Founder intention to square the 2nd Amendment with statist needs. In Cases v. United States, 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942) the Supreme Court unbelievably held that U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939) had not intended "to formulate a general rule" regarding which arms were protected by the Second Amendment and therefore many types of arms were not protected. In fact Miller held that it is the firearm itself, not the act of keeping and bearing the firearm, which must have a "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Meaning if the weapon qualified any citizen could keep and near it. A plain reading of Miller meant only weapons with non-military application could be regulated by Congress and that could not be right because it challenged the 'right' of government to have a force monopoly. So the Court's reasoning was that the Founders could not have meant for the federal government to have any effective deterrent to its tyranny from the citizenry. Even after absorbing the opinion, I cannot fathom how convoluted a reading of the historical record those on bench needed in order to arrive at their conclusion. Pretzel logic indeed! From bgt at chrootlabs.org Fri Jan 9 22:22:39 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:22:39 -0600 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1073715759.1622.18.camel@nettie> On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 10:59, Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net wrote: > That made Silveira the law of the land, you see. > That means that no American citizen, since December 1, 2003, has a fundamental right to possess a firearm. Only in the 9th circuit. The 5th circuit (in 2001) has previously given an opinion in direct opposition to the 9th circuit's finding. http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/99/99-10331-cr0.htm "We find that the history of the Second Amendment reinforces the plain meaning of its text, namely that it protects individual Americans in their right to keep and bear arms whether or not they are a member of a select militia or performing active military service or training." and "We reject the collective rights and sophisticated collective rights models for interpreting the Second Amendment. We hold, consistent with Miller, that it protects the right of individuals, including those not then actually a member of any militia or engaged in active military service or training, to privately possess and bear their own firearms..." and "In undertaking this analysis, we are mindful that almost all of our sister circuits have rejected any individual rights view of the Second Amendment. However, it respectfully appears to us that all or almost all of these opinions seem to have done so either on the erroneous assumption that Miller resolved that issue or without sufficient articulated examination of the history and text of the Second Amendment." So in the 5th circuit, the individual right to keep & bear arms is still explicitly recognized and upheld. The Supreme Court will eventually have to resolve this discrepancy amongst the lower courts, it's unclear what kind of case it will take to push them to it though, given their historical extreme reluctance to hear any 2nd amendment cases. And it's very dubious what the decision would be. --bgt From timcmay at got.net Sat Jan 10 01:04:32 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:04:32 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01371946-434C-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 9, 2004, at 10:17 PM, Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net wrote: > Its hard to square the Founder's purpose of providing the common > citizen, through a militia (which a National Guard), with an effective > physical deterrent to governmental tyranny with many restrictions on > the type of weapons a citizen in good standing may keep and bear. > Though allowing the guy next door to own a nuke or a F-15 may be going > too far, its not unreasonable for any of us to keep and bear any arm > that our police forces (including S.W.A.T. teams) field. Where does this "citizen in good standing" stuff come from? I see it a lot from what I will call "weak Second Amendment" supporters. They talk about "good citizens" and "law-abiding citizens" as having Second Amendment rights. If someone has been apprehended and convicted and imprisoned for a real crime, then of course various of their normal rights are no longer in forced. If, however, they are out of prison then all of their rights, including speech, religion, assembly, firearms, due process, security of their possessions and property, speedy trial, blah blah blah are of course in force. As a felon, which I am, do I not have First Amendment rights? As a felon, and certainly not a citizen in good standing, have I lost my other rights? To all who say "Yes," including most of the Eurotrash collectivists here, I say your legacy shall be smoke. Tens of millions, perhaps billions, need to be sent up the chimneys. >> --Tim May "The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able may have a gun." --Patrick Henry "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton From bgt at chrootlabs.org Fri Jan 9 23:08:40 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:08:40 -0600 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073715759.1622.18.camel@nettie> References: <1073715759.1622.18.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <1073718520.1288.28.camel@nettie> On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 00:22, bgt wrote: > On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 10:59, Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net wrote: > > That made Silveira the law of the land, you see. > > That means that no American citizen, since December 1, 2003, has a fundamental right to possess a firearm. > > Only in the 9th circuit. I should've said: only in the 9th circuit, in states that don't have a state constitutional provision regarding right to keep and bear arms. I believe the only state that falls in that category is CA. Every other state in the 9th circuit has a constitutional provision that is usually even more explicit than the 2nd ammendment. Most explicitly state the /individual/ has the right to keep and bear arms (as opposed to "the people" which some courts have interpreted to mean "the state" or state-approved/regulated militias). For example, NV is typical: "Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes." Article 1, Section 11, Paragraph 1. --bgt From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Fri Jan 9 22:17:05 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:17:05 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment Message-ID: > At 08:10 PM 1/9/2004, Greg Broiles wrote: > > Did you actually read the opinion, or just read some screwball summary of it? Obviously not well enough. Thanks for straightening me out. > > >In Cases v. United States, 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942) the Supreme Court > >[...] > > Nope. That opinion was written, as the citation indicated, by the Court of > Appeals for the First Circuit, not the Supreme Court. > > > unbelievably held that U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939) had not > > intended "to formulate a general rule" regarding which arms were > > protected by the Second Amendment and therefore many types of arms were > > not protected. > > While I do think that the 2nd Amendment does, in fact, protect an > individual right to keep and bear arms, I think that the 1st Circuit's > reasoning re _Miller_ in _Cases_ is actually quite reasonable. The opinion > points out that interpreting _Miller_ so that it says the 2nd Amendment > means that Congress can regulate firearms, but only ineffective or useless > ones, is nonsensical. While I don't think the Ninth Circuit reads _Miller_ > in a reasonable fashion, I don't think the "only useless weapons may be > regulated" is an especially rational interpretation of it, either. > > >A plain reading of Miller meant only weapons with non-military application > >could be regulated by Congress and that could not be right because it > >challenged the 'right' of government to have a force monopoly. So the > >Court's reasoning was that the Founders could not have meant for the > >federal government to have any effective deterrent to its tyranny from the > >citizenry. Even after absorbing the opinion, I cannot fathom how > >convoluted a reading of the historical record those on bench needed in > >order to arrive at their conclusion. Pretzel logic indeed! > > Yes, that is an unreasonable conclusion to reach. It is also unreasonable > to conclude that the 2nd Amendment means that no regulation of weapons is > constitutionally permissible. Its hard to square the Founder's purpose of providing the common citizen, through a militia (which a National Guard), with an effective physical deterrent to governmental tyranny with many restrictions on the type of weapons a citizen in good standing may keep and bear. Though allowing the guy next door to own a nuke or a F-15 may be going too far, its not unreasonable for any of us to keep and bear any arm that our police forces (including S.W.A.T. teams) field. >Even the 1st Amendment - which contains the > words "shall make no law" - is interpreted to allow some regulation of > speech. (e.g., shouting theater in a crowded fire, etc.) Only if there is no fire. When a government comes to a bad end there is indeed a fire in the theater. From nobody at paranoici.org Sat Jan 10 03:28:39 2004 From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:28:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: Assoc Press sports contact list Message-ID: Some # for GWB is in this. > The AP Sports desk accidentally emailed out there sports rolodex > today to other newsies. If you've been wanting to raise hell with > Peter Ueberroth, talk to Hammering Hank, or see how much Pete Rose > was actually wagering - give em a call. Before they change their > numbers. Someone at the AP is in deep doo-doo. > Aaron Hank 404-614-1348; 404-349-7550 (h) > ABC Radio 456-5185 > Abdul-Jabbar Kareem 213-277-1806 > Abraham Seth 212-512-1648; 212-242-8620 (h) > AC Nielsen 708-6949; 708-7548 > Adams Alan 416-465-1019 (h) > Adcock Joe 318-932-4887 > Albert Marv 212-439-6330 > Alderson Sandy 510-638-4900; 510-430-1828; 415-435-6345 (h) > Alfano, Pete (ATP) 904-285-8000 > Allen Doug (NFLPA) 202-463-2215; 703-549-1528 (h) > Allen Mel 203-531-4440 (h) > Alliss Peter 011-444-2873-5669 > Anderson Dick 305-670-0440; 305-665-0400 (h) > Anderson Ottis 305-683-2524 > Anderson Sparky 805-492-2060 (h) > Andretti Mario 215-759-5118 > Andros Dee 503-754-2370; 503-753-5886 (h) > Angelos Peter 410-547-6210; 410-659-0100; 410-323-4429 (h) > Antonucci John 303-292-0200; 216-533-2660 h-8 p.m. > AP Broadcast 800-368-5915; 800-424-8804 > AP Radio 800-368-5915 > Arbitron 212-887-1318 > Archibald Tiny 212-798-6662 (h) > Argovitz Jerry 713-629-5771 > Argyros George 714-241-4900 > Armato Leonard (agent for Shaq, atty for Kareem) 213-553-6666 > Arnold Jennifer - 212-664-7202; 535-0444 (h) > Arum Bob 702-371-3232; 702-759-9323 (h) > Atlanta Organizing Committee (Bob Brennan) 404-224-1996 > Auerbach Red 202-244-4722; 202-466-8312 (h) > Autry Gene 213-460-5672 or 5676; 818-761-9208 (h); 619-324-2155 Palm > Springs > Baer Larry 415-330-2505; 415-668-4102 (h) > Bailey Wilford 205-821-9723 (h); 205-826-2278 > Baker Buddy 704-527-2763. > Baker Buck - 704-483-9206. > Baker Dusty 415-583-9531 (h) > Baker Terry 503-221-1440 > Bando Sal 414-933-3353; 602-241-3370 (h) > Banks Ernie 818-906-2827; 818-788-4388; 310-823-7268 > Barger Carl 412-381-8807 (h) > Barnett Dick 956-5311 > Barrow Joe Louis Jr 303-420-9592 > Bartholomay Bill 312-726-0759; 312-642-5634 (h) > Bavasi Bill 714-937-7261; 714-855-0259 (h); 714-859-0452 (h) > Bavasi Peter 201-626-2697 > Baylor Don 619-771-1925 > Beathard, Bobby 619-632-9314 > Beban Gary 213-613-3531 > Beeston Paul 416-341-1220; 416-485-1472 (h) > Belcher Tim 419-768-2012 > Bell Jerry 612-375-7400; 612-777-4267 (h) > Bender, Steve (Michael Jordan marketing) 708-575-5615 > Benoit Joan 207-865-9258 > Berbick Trevor 305-431-7383 > Berenson Red 313-747-1203 > Bernstein Donn 951-8318 > Berra Yogi 201-746-1770 > Berry Walter 718-544-4926 > Berst David 913-339-1906, ext. 7450; 913-362-5654 (h) > Berthelsen, Dick (NFLPA lawyer) 202-463-2220; 703-250-7061 (h) > Bettman, Gary 914-638-9434 (h) > Bingham Howard 213-321-3344 > Binns James (WBA atty) 215-922-4000 > Black Coaches Assn 515-271-3010 > Blair Paul 301-747-8107 > Blake Marty 404-410-9301 > Blanchard John 612-546-2620 > Blanda George 312-352-8513; 619-564-0051 > Blanton Dewey 212-628-7734 > Blatnick Jeff 518-463-5244; 374-6078; 374-0131 > Bleier Rocky 412-963-6763 > Blumencranz, Roger 516-328-8300 > Bobek, Nicole 810-258-1600 > Bodo Peter 914-676-3471 > Bolletieri Nick 800-USA-NICK; 813-755-1000; 813-792-4308 (h) > Bonilla Bobby 813-730-1425 (h) > Boone Bob 714-637-3048 > Boudreau Lou 708-841-9105 > Bouton Jim 201-692-8228 > Bradley Bill 202-224-8561 > Bradshaw Susan (Marlboro racing) 718-243-2815 > Bradshaw Terry 817-379-0800 (h) > Bradshaw Terry 817-379-5280 > Bray Cary 704-541-6339 > Brennan Bob (Atlanta Organizing Committee) 404-224-1996 > Brochu Claude 514-253-3049; 514-844-5396 (h); 407-625-0445 (h) > Brodsky Irv 914-761-2483 > Brown Bobby 212-315-0338 > Brown Bobby 817-732-5759; 212-315-0338 > Brown Hubie 201-992-9563 > Brown Hubie 404-252-5463 > Brown Jimmy 310-652-7884 > Brown Tim 214-321-0081 > Brown Warren (USA Basketball) 719-590-4800 > Bubas Vic 813-996-5096 > Buchsbaum Joel 718-252-4810 > Budge Don 717-828-2817 > Budig Gene 609-252-1451 > Buoniconti Nick 203-622-3524 > Burns Ken 750-5556 > Burns Mike 628-8393 > Bush W. George 214-891-3131 > Butkus Dick 310-450-7040; 310-456-5056 (h); 708-654-3599 > Butler Brett 404-448-3402 (h) > Campbell Earl 512-477-6798; 512-328-3929 (h) > Cantey Charlsie 703-364-3086 > Carillo Mary 813-263-7557 > Carillo Mary 813-263-7557 > Carlson Mark USGA-201-662-7228 (h) > Carnesecca Lou 718-380-1569 > Carnicelli Joe 201-309-1200 > Casey, Kathy 719-634-4789 > Cashen Frank 718-565-4300; 516-759-5500 (h) > Cashman Terry 490-0644 > Caulkins Tracy 615-373-2623; 904-372-6085 > Cawood Dave 913-339-1906; 913-631-5996 (h) > Cayton Bill - 212-532-1711; 914-834-2899 (h) > CBS News 212-975-4114 > CBS Radio 975-3771 > Chamberlain Wilt 310-476-3666 > Chambliss Chris 803-299-6266 (h) > Champion USA - 910-519-6500 > Chance Dean 216-262-2476 > Cherry Don 416-274-8354 > Cindrich Ralph 412-429-1250 > Cirillo John 465-6499, 63, 65; 914-238-1473 (h) > Citrus Bowl 407-423-2476 > Claire Fred 213-224-1308; 818-440-1983 (h) > Clancy Gil 516-599-0474 > Clark Jack 415-736-8777 (h) > Clemens Roger 713-392-6337 > Clifford Alexander 202-546-0111 > Clyde David 713-351-5556 (h); 713-351-8171 > Colangelo Jerry 602-379-7999; 602-379-2020; 602-263-8416 > Coleman Leonard 908-706-9015 (h) > Collins Bud 617-929-2842; 617-862-1730 (h) > Condon Tom 816-531-5777 > Condron Bob USOC-719-578-4529 > Cook Beano 412-281-2456 > Cook Stanton 312-222-3301; 312-404-4050; 708-251-3065 (h) > Cooperstown 607-547-7200; 607-547-0332 > Corso Lee 800-824-9430; 407-333-2228 (h) > Cortez, Christine 522-1905. > Cosell Hilary 203-322-5501 > Cosell Jill 203-329-7778 > Cousy Bob 508-791-2777 (h); 617-326-8825 > Cowens Dave 617-787-7678 > Cox Bobby 404-916-0460 (h) > Coyle Harry 201-696-5420 (h) > Criqui Don 201-226-1170 > Csonka Larry 216-424-7467; 904-221-0921 > Cubbage Mike 804-985-2076 > Cunningham Sam 213-598-4809 > Curtis Mike 202-463-2100 > Dallos Andrew 212-456-4878; 212-532-4401 (h) > Dalton Harry 414-351-4792, 2206 (h) > Dark Alvin 803-855-2163 > David Chili 602-585-3524 (h) > Davidson John 914-273-3983 > Davis Al 213-821-0690 (h); 213-322-3541 > Davis Eric 818-704-1771 (h); 513-731-6567 (h) > Davis Marvin 303-623-1000; 303-861-4600; 303-789-2555 (h) > Dawson, Len 816-561-7510 > Dawson Len 816-942-7614 > de Varona Donna 972-9170 > Deane Bill (baseball hof librarian) 607-547-1201 > DeBartolo Eddie 216-533-4060; 415-854-3350 > DeBusschere Dave 943-4175 > DeFrantz Anita 213-730-9614 > DeLuca Len 212-975-1117 > Dent Bucky 407-368-0780 (h) > Devine Dan 314-882-2055 > Dierdorf Dan 314-469-6960; 314-469-3221 (h) > DiMaggio Joe 415-931-5711; 305-865-9961, ext 1721; 415-673-2266 > Ditka Mike 708-735-0315; 813-434-2818 > Dixon Don 463-2620 > Dodds, DeLoss 512-471-5757 > Dolgon Howard - 714-1280 > Dombrowski Dave 305-626-7404; 305-767-0015 (h) > Donlan Jack 914-779-4192 > Doubleday Nelson 212-223-6518; 516-676-4284 (h); 508-325-5550 (h) > Douglas, Buster 614-265-2257 > Downtown Athletic Club 425-7000 > Doyle Brian 813-293-8516 > Dozoretz Linda IMG-213-656-4499; 213-654-1196 (h) > Driesell Lefty 301-622-0786 > Drucker Jim 704-541-6339 > Dryden Ken 416-962-7280 > Duffy Bill (Jason Kidd's agent) 510-975-5955 > Dundee Angelo 305-964-9592; 305-625-9999 > Dupree Marcus 601-264-8141; 601-583-4943 > Duva Dan 201-389-9000 > Eagleson Alan 416-863-6000 > Earnhardt Dale 704-596-9002 704-371-3334. > Ebersol Dick 212-664-2468 > Edwards Harry 510-642-4773; 510-657-8005 > Edwards Harry 415-657-8005; 415-642-4773 > Einhorn Eddie 312-451-5237; 201-784-0090 (h) > Elias Stats 869-1530. > Elliott Bill 404-262-7811; 404-993-6380. > Eller Carl 612-642-9363 > Elway John 303-792-2000 > Eruzione Mike 617-846-9484 > ESPN Newsroom 203-585-2135 > Face Elroy 412-829-7073 > Fairbanks Chuck 619-773-3727 > Falk David (agent for Jordan, Ewing) 202-686-2000 > Favell Doug 416-562-5489 > Fehr Don 914-939-3439 > Fehr Steve 816-474-1240 > Fencik Gary 312-472-8793 (h); 312-390-8500 > Ferguson Claire US Figure Skating-401-423-2114 > Ferraro Jim football agent-305-375-0111 > Ferrin Arnie 801-583-4313 > Finkel Shelly 682-9400 > Finley Charley 312-946-8900; 312-467-0442 (h) > Finn Richard 772-9761 > Firestone Roy 213-469-8111 > Fishoff David 757-1605 > Flutie Doug 617-653-8374 > Foerderer Norma Trump Plaza-832-2000 > Foley Dave 513-324-0092 > Ford Whitey 516-482-3504 (h); 516-997-9690 > Forte Chet 397-9870 > Fouts Dan 503-388-2078 (h) > Fraley, Bob 407-843-0191; 876-3766 (h) > Francesa Mike - 718-706-7650 WFAN ; 516-432-9427 > Francis Bevo 216-532-1879 > Finkel Shelly 682-9400 > Finley Charley 312-946-8900; 312-467-0442 (h) > Finn Richard 772-9761 > Firestone Roy 213-469-8111 > Fishoff David 757-1605 > Flutie Doug 617-653-8374 > Foerderer Norma Trump Plaza-832-2000 > Foley Dave 513-324-0092 > Ford Whitey 516-482-3504 (h); 516-997-9690 > Forte Chet 397-9870 > Fouts Dan 503-388-2078 (h) > Fraley, Bob 407-843-0191; 876-3766 (h) > Francesa Mike - 718-706-7650 WFAN ; 516-432-9427 > Francis Bevo 216-532-1879 > Francis Carl (NFLPA) 202-463-2216; 703-264-9093 (h) > Frank Barry 772-8900 > Fratello Mike 404-951-0144 > Frazier Joe 215-221-5303 > Frazier Walt 222-3704 > Froemming, Bruce 414-355-2565 > Futch Eddie 818-918-0280 > Gaines Rowdy 702-647-6939 > Garagiola Joe 602-951-9091 > Garagiola Joe 602-951-9542 (h) > Garner Phil 713-358-3545 (h) > Garvey Ed 608-258-1522; 608-238-0544 (h) > Gastineau Mark 516-421-3294 > Gaston Cito 813-736-0335 (h) > Gedman Rich 617-877-8487 > Gene Scott - 753-8961 (h) > Genelius Sandy 212-975-5392; 724-0587 (h) > George Tom Grant Hill agent-202-333-3838 > Giles Bill 215-462-1170; 610-525-5540 (h) > Gillick Pat 416-341-1233; 416-278-8132 (h) > Ginsberg Stu NBAPA-371-0798, 718-793-4912 (h) > Glass Sam 516-922-3255; 308-3647 > Glickman Marty 212-628-8200 > Glover Rich 408-294-5813 > Goetz Raymond 913-842-3786 > Goldstein Joe 212-629-0370; 516-877-2674 (h) > Gooden Dwight 813-864-0415 (h) > Goodenow Bob 416-482-4182 (h) > Gordon Jeff 704-377-8727; 704-455-3400. > Gordon Randy 417-5700; 516-785-4299 > Gorman Lou 617-236-6655; 617-235-2734, 2984 (h) > Gossett Peggy (Evert flak) 407-495-5599 (h); 407-394-2400 > Gowdy Curt 603-869-2257 > Gowdy Curt Jr 203-966-1145 > Green Dallas 610-869-0736; 809-946-4548 > Green Roy 314-432-6160 > Greenberg Steve 212-529-8000; 212-348-5430 (h) > Greene Joe 214-298-0374 > Greenspan Bud 212-249-1800; 212-838-7651 (h) > Greg Sharko ATP-904-285-8000 > Griese Bob 305-443-7416; 305-665-9857 (h) > Griffith Calvin 305-725-6296 > Griffith Emile 718-479-4955; 718-479-7330 > Griffith Joyner Florence 714-759-9079 > Grinker Ron 513-761-7770 > Gumbel Bryant 664-4147 > Guthrie Glenn (Barkley manager) 205-970-9113 > Gwynn Tony 619-679-9289 (h) > Haas Wally 415-221-2667 > 9 Haddix Harvey 513-322-4528 (h) > Ham Jack 412-741-9475 > Harazin Al 914-472-5403 (h) > Harp Dick 913-843-7655 > Harrell, Akieva 522-4461. > Harrelson Bud 516-360-0139 (h) > Harris Franco 412-322-5500 > Harvey Doug 619-279-7177 > Hazzard Larry 609-292-0317 > Heep Danny 512-751-2519 > Heiss Jenkins Carol 216-864-3200. > Heitz Thomas (Baseball HOF) 607-547-1201 > Hillenburg Andy 704-455-1700. > Helmick Bob 515-244-1116 > Helmick Robert 888-9028 (h); 415-9200 > Henrich Tommy 602-772-7866 > Herzog Whitey 314-842-5609 (h) > Hinckley Rob 415-945-8260 > Hobson Butch 508-898-3544 (h) > Hoffman, Stan 629-3410 > Holmes, Larry 215-253-4553 > Holtzman, Jerome 708-475-5163 > Holzman Red 516-295-5745; 516-295-4565 > Horner Bob 214-252-0814; 602-931-4739 > Hornung Paul 502-583-9000; 502-897-7085 (h) > Houk Ralph 813-324-1073 > Howe Steve 406-862-2658 > Hrbek Kent 612-884-6833 (h) > Huarte John 602-438-1324 > Hubbard Jan 212-407-8324; 908-789-9670 (h) > Huff Sam 202-897-7070 > Huizenga Wayne 305-832-3223; 305-467-2576 (h) > Hunt, Lamar 214-691-9189 > Hunt Ron 314-673-2921 > Hunter Catfish 919-426-7998 > Hyde Harvey 818-355-1709 > Iacobelli Pete 803-741-9077 > IBF - 201-414-0300 > IMG 202-822-1360; 216-522-1200 > Irvin Monte 904-382-0228 > Jackson, Charlie 914-476-7809 (h); 212-872-5225 > Jackson Jesse 202-986-0550 > Jackson Keith 818-783-7643; 604-883-9386 > Jackson Reggie 510-644-0044 (h) > Jackson, Roger 212-522-2420. > Jacobs Eli 212-688-7166; 212-688-7110 > Jeffrey H. Smulyen 317-266-0100; 317-297-9700 (h) > Jiggetts Dan 312-565-5532 > Joe Billy 513-376-6319; 513-767-7153 (h) > John McMullen 212-466-2200 > Johnson Davey 407-628-4860 (h) > Johnson Dave (horse racing) 212-755-6867 > Johnson John Henry 412-682-7743 > Johnson, Magic 310-788-7690; 310-451-4530 > Jordan Lee Roy 214-357-7317 > Joyce Andrea 212-787-3346 (h) > Kapstein Jerry 619-457-2470; 619-453-8757 (h) > Karch Sarge 202-861-1671 > Kasten Stan 404-827-3826; 404-614-1366; 404-394-2228 (h) > Katz Mike 673-0133 > Kazmaier Dick 508-371-1732 > Keener, Steve (Little League) 717-326-1921 > Kensil Jim 516-541-5871 > Kern Rex 805-654-1548 > Kessler, Jeffrey 310-8646 > Kheel Robert 212-821-8234; 212-799-0332 (h) > Kibler John 619-433-6125 > Kidd Dusty Nike-503-671-6453 > Kiefler Carl Willie Mays agent-201-251-9307 > Kiick Jim 305-765-1041; 305-249-6570 > King Billie Jean 216-522-1200; 312-245-5300; 312-647-0505 > King Don 212-794-2900; 212-758-4285; 216-272-5474; 305-568-3500 > King, Peter 522-1212; 201-509-2240. > Kinney Jeff 708-668-5308 (h); 312-559-1761 > Kiper Mel 301-744-7922; 410-692-2032 > Klein Eric (Rickey Henderson agent) 310-858-1872 > Kliever Lonnie 214-692-2102 > Knoblauch Chuck 713-782-3345 (h) > Kohn Marvin 838-9230; 838-4230 > Koufax Sandy 207-469-2053 > Kramer Jack 213-472-3801 > Kramer Jerry 208-722-5877 > Kristin Matt (US Figure Skating) 719-635-5200 > Kuhn, Bowie 904-285-9935, 904-285-9938; 516-653-4133 > La Russa Tony 510-838-4679 > La Russa Tony 415-838-4679 (h) > Labonte Bobby 704-788-7979 > Lachemann Rene 602-488-4575 (h) > LaCivita Ric 203-226-3465 > Land Peter 212-249-6312 (h) > Landeta Sean 410-825-8855 > Landry, Tom 214-750-7474 > Lane Mills 702-328-3220 > Lanier Bob 414-241-4667 (h) > Lans Allen Dr 754-2500 > Lapchick Richard 617-373-4025 > Lapchick Richard 617-437-4025 > Lapin East West 532-7673 > LaPlaca Chris 203-585-2239; 203-676-8587 (h) > Lasorda Tommy 714-870-4894 > Lauren Rich 718-858-4370 > Lavalle Nye 214-407-9560 > Lawton Lynnore (Women's Sports Foundation) 516-542-4700 > Leaird Ana (WTA) 813-895-5000; 800-425-9488; 813-576-6001 (h) > Leaver Linda (Brian Boitano coach) 415-948-2478 > Lemon Bob 213-424-9839 > Levinsohn Ross 512-1066 > Lewin Dennis 212-456-3437 > Lewis Butch 302-582-4344; 302-594-0700 > Lewis, Carl 713-984-1933 > Ley Bob 203-585-2144; 203-583-2300 (h) > Lilly Bob 505-523-7749 > Lindsay Ted 313-375-2437 > Little Larry 614-792-6189 > Lolich Mickey 313-693-0029 > Lopez Al 813-839-6584 > Lopez Hector 516-678-6118 > Louganis, Greg 310-312-3132; 310-457-3910 > Lucas John 713-799-8336; 713-799-1705 > Lucchino Larry 619-584-7201; 619-454-1995 (h) > Luckman Sid 305-932-6200; 312-544-1600 > Lynch Dick 248-7990 > Lynn Mike 612-475-1016 (h) > Macallister Steve (NHLPA) 416-408-4040; 905-455-0563 (h) > Mackey John 213-684-1459 > MacPhail Lee 407-752-1369; 407-278-9945; 407-243-1371 > Madden John 415-846-7770; 212-874-3958; 415-820-2630 > Magowan Peter 415-330-2599; 415-931-3295 (h) > Major League BB Alumni 800-33-MLBPA > Mandel Mark 212-456-4867; 201-251-8156 (h) > Mangione Steve Steinbrenner flak-- 518-1600 > Mann Carol 972-9170 > Mantle's Restaurant 688-7777 > Mara Chris 914-234-6764 > Mara Wellington 914-967-1776 (h) > Margenau Eric Dr 353-3560; 473-1700; 741-4668 > Markbreit Jerry 708-677-9379 (h) > Markey Ed - 212-664-2014; 932-2665 (h) > Marlin Sterling 704-782-2588 > Martin Mark 910-622-5160. > Mays Willie 884-2424; 415-326-2424 > McCovey Willie 707-649-0900 > McDonough Sean 617-984-0928 (h) > McDonough Will 617-929-2873; 617-749-6070 > McEnroe John Sr - 212-373-3016 > McGraw Tug 215-581-4573 > McGuire Al 414-781-6300; 414-483-2110 > McIntyre Brian NBA-212-826-7000; 914-633-7596 (h) > McKernan Pat 505-843-6573 > McLain Denny 219-432-4679 (h) > McMorris Jerry 303-312-2342; 303-484-4441 (h) > McMullen John 466-2200 > Meggyesy Dave 415-546-7866 > Mercante Arthur 516-292-9000, ext 218; 516-248-6884 > Mercein Chuck 914-472-4021 (h); 232-6922 > Merritt Tom 201-583-4445; 212-371-5910 > Michael Gene 718-579-4405; 201-934-6166 (h) > Michaels Al 213-395-2174 > Michaels Walt 717-256-3425 > Mikita Stan 718-574-2370 > Millen Matt 215-434-3781 (h) > Miller, Marvin 212-737-5047 > Modell Art 216-951-3637 (h) > Moe Doug 303-694-6167 (h) > Monaghan Kevin 212-664-5407, 718-965-4371 (h) > Moore Archie 619-238-0450 > Moore Lenny 301-655-6239 (h); 301-333-6777; 301-333-1059; > 301-333-8289 > Moran Mike USOC-719-578-4529 > Morgan Joe 510-482-0876 (h) > Morrall Earl 305-475-8200 > Morris Mercury 305-443-4040 > Morrison Scotty 416-245-0443 (h); 416-595-1345 > Moses Edwin 513-263-5180; 714-855-1846 > Moss Dick 988-6767; 310-454-9991 > Motta Dick 208-945-2571; 407-229-1071; 801-752-5839 > Moyer, Jay (NFL lawyer) 212-534-2464 (h) > Murphy Eileen (Nightline) 202-887-7289 > Murray Bill 413-637-2617 > Musburger Brent 203-227-4651 (h) > Musburger Todd 312-664-2600 > Muster Brad 415-897-3853 > NBA - 212-826-7000 > Neale Harry 716-689-2234 > Neinas Chuck CFA-303-530-5566 > Nelson Todd 619-268-2871 > Nettles Graig 619-481-5444 > Newman Rock 202-371-2100 > NFL - 212-758-1500 > NHL 212-789-2000 > NHL - 212-398-1100 > NHLPA 416-408-4040 > Nichols Hank 215-645-4621 > NL - 212-339-7700 > NYRA 718-641-4700 > O'Connor Chuck 212-249-8586; 703-329-1968 (h) > Oerter Al 516-669-1376 (h); 516-575-3218; 516-349-5273 > Oliver Al 817-792-3511 > Olsen Merlin 818-576-0434 > O'Malley Peter 213-224-1314 > O'Neil Terry 212-664-4021; 203-661-0247, 9744 (h) > Orr Bobby 617-451-1963 > Orza Gene 212-980-9024 > Ostertag Thomas 914-337-3240 (h) > Owen Mickey 417-866-2148 > Pacheco Ferdie 305-573-2874 > Packer Billy 919-998-2505 > Page Alan 612-297-5922; 612-296-6951 > Pahl Al 414-465-6766; 414-465-6646 (h) > Palmer Jim 407-626-6661 > Palmieri Sergio (McEnroe's manager) 39-51-226214 > Parseghian Ara 219-233-9481 > Parseghian Ara 219-272-0186 (h); 219-233-9481 > Pascal Sal 212-822-1399 > Patkin Max 215-783-5933 > Patterson Floyd 914-255-0802 > Paul Gabe 813-831-8178 (h) > Payton Gary 415-536-2190 > Payton Walter 312-843-0034; 708-605-0034 > Pearl Davey 702-451-9931 > Pearson Drew 214-638-2414 > Pensick Matt (US Figure Skating) 719-635-5200 > Perez Tony (boxing) 212-293-0908 > Perman Marc (Barkley agent) 212-529-5800; 213-275-6800 > Perry Barbara (Capriati agent) 215-568-4444 > Peters Keith (Jordan marketing) 503-671-3732 > Petronelli Pat 617-583-6637; 617-697-7617 > Phelps Digger 219-232-6486 > Phillips Bum 713-499-6369 > Phillips Richie 215-979-3200; 215-647-5785; 215-647-6141 (h) > Phipps Mike 305-566-2742 > Pincus Arthur NHL-212-1789-2150; 718-796-7397 (h) > Pohlad Carl 612-341-7927; 612-922-3613 (h) > Policy Carmen 415-326-7701 > Posey Sam 203-364-0156 > Postema Pam 714-361-3792 (h) > Pound Dick 514-397-3037; 514-931-0000 (h) > Presten Sy 42-5058 > Pro Serv703-276-3030 > Puckett Kirby 612-493-4647 (h) > Pugh Jethro 214-939-0431 > Quinn Bob 415-330-2502 > Quinn Jim 914-273-3651; 310-8000 > Quisenberry Dan 913-491-1262 > Raines Tim 813-254-7844 > Ralph Nader 202-387-8030 > Ralston John 415-854-5308 > Ramsay Jack 609-399-0104 > Randolph Willie 201-848-0281 (h) > Rappaport Dennis 718-631-7228 (h); 718-978-3300; 718-528-4087 > Ravitch Richard 212-570-1030 (h); 914-764-5574 (h) > Reaves John 713-496-3690 > Reich Tom 213-556-2750; 412-391-2626; 813-957-1372 > Reinsdorf Jerry 312-440-1122; 312-640-1313 (h); 602-596-8500 (h) > Rich Lauren 718-858-4370 > Richard Henri 514-687-8500 > Riggs Bobby 619-435-0402; 819-436-3627 > Rigney Bill 510-837-8353 > Riska Rudy 425-7000 > Roberts Robin 813-985-7688 (h) > Roberts Tom 213-377-6969 > Robertson Oscar 513-984-0990 > Robinson Brooks 301-539-7400; 301-659-4899 > Robinson Eddie 318-247-3907 (h) > Robinson John 714-692-1994 > Robinson Rachel 290-8600 > Rodgers Bill 617-655-9232; 508-653-9313 > Rodgers Guy 213-665-4370; 213-660-3857 > Rose Pete 800-803-7383 radio show ; 407-488-7383 restaurant > Rose Rich 310-552-2711 > Rosen Al 619-321-7627 > Rosenstein Jay 212-975-6657; 914-354-9164 (h) > Royal Darrell 512-495-4517; 512-327-5554 (h); 512-471-1156 > Rozelle Pete 619-756-2635 > Rubenstein Howard 489-6900 > Rudd Irving 516-741-3232; 718-428-1427 (h) > Rudd Ricky 704-663-7778. > Runge Paul 619-579-5808 > Russell Bill 206-232-2405; 206-236-0765 (h) > Ryan Buddy 502-839-9838 > Ryan Jim 913-749-3325; 913-631-1100 > Saban, Lou 813-645-1495 > Sack Alan Dr 203-389-5284 (h); 203-932-7285 > Sain Johnny 708-968-8779 > Sam Rutigliano 803-768-7058; 216-256-9829 > Sample Johnny 215-472-5227 > Sands Jack 617-227-5535 > Sax Steve 916-652-3775 (h) > Sayers Gale 708-982-1030 > Schaffel Lewis 305-577-4328 > Schanzer Ken 212-664-2437 > Schayes Dolph 315-446-5186 > Schmidt Joe 313-353-5577 > Schramm Tex 214-363-6665; 305-294-6715 (h) > Schuerholz John 404-614-1368; 404-237-8711 (h) > Scott Ray Bass Anglers-205-286-9724 > Seifert George 408-732-8822 (h) > Selig Bud 414-933-4114; 414-352-0927 (h) > Selmon Lee Roy 813-974-2125 > Sexton Jimmy (Reggie White, Heath Shuler agent) 901-763-4900 > Shamsky Art 751-6387 > Shell Donnie 803-252-1223 > Sheridan Danny 205-476-1122 > Shula Don 305-828-0281 (h) > Silverman Ira 686-5983 > Simpson OJ 213-820-5702 > Skowron Bill 708-893-3379 > Slusher Howard 213-541-0035 > Smith Tal 713-965-0410 > Solomon Artie 914-472-3390 (h); 914-472-6598 > Soltys Mike 203-585-2242; 203-589-8361 (h) > Spahn Warren 918-297-2400 > Spence Jim 605-0255 > Sperber Murray 812-855-4433; 812-339-5308 (h) > Spitz Mark 213-879-1184 > Springstead Marty 813-922-9149 > Stabler Ken 205-433-8888 > Stabler Ken 205-433-8888 > Stack Ed 269-1833 > Stallworth John 205-533-6497 > Starr Bart 205-945-4974 > Staubach Roger 214-386-0739 (h); 714-720-8700 > Steinbrenner 813-281-9001; 813-886-7130; 718-884-0591; 718-884-0791 > Steiner Jim 314-862-5560 > Stephenson Dwight 305-5573230 > Steve Young 801-226-1010 > Stouffer Kelly 308-327-2969 > Stram Hank 504-892-4771 > Strickland Bill Chris Webber agent-202-822-1360 > Strock Don 305-887-7756 > Suder Pete 412-375-7518 > Sugar Bert 730-1374 > Swann Lynn 412-391-8242 > Swanson Dennis 212-456-3710 > Tagliabue Paul 212-472-1998; 301-320-7271; 212-758-1500, ext 6923 > Tanner Chuck 412-658-6717 > Tarkenton Fran 404-231-8575 > Taylor Alan 714-1280 > Team Tennis - 312-245-5300 > Tekulve Kent 412-257-0471 > Theismann Joe - 305-428-7507 parents > Thomas Dave-Te 718-843-6934; 718-848-5256 (h) > Thompson Charles 513-268-9304 > Thon Dickie 809-796-2198 (h) > Thrift Syd 804-435-0515; 703-591-6459; 703-591-6511 > Tisch Bob 212-545-2828 > Tittle YA 415-328-7586 > Torre Joe 314-425-0668 (h) > Towler Deacon Dan 213-343-4446; 213-684-1556 (h) > Trabert Tony 904-285-4362 > Trainer Mike 301-657-4771 > Tranghese Mike 401-831-0588 > Trautwig Al - 887-6793; 516-674-3730 > Trebelhorn Tom 503-232-5903 (h) > Trope Mike 213-478-4799 > Troy Jim 203-352-8649 > Trudeau Garry - 721-5075 > Tunney Jim 408-624-1111; 408-659-3200 > Turner Bulldog 817-865-5561 > Turner Ted 404-827-1827 > Tutko Thomas Dr 408-688-7249 (h); 408-924-1374 > Ueberroth Peter 213-312-1888 > Underwood John 305-367-3172 > Upshaw Gene 202-463-2212 (h); 703-759-6004. > US Figure Skating 719-635-5200 > USTA 914-696-7000 > USTA 914-696-0300 > Vaccaro Jimmy 702-791-7242 > Vaccaro Sonny 213-454-0921 > Valentine Bobby 817-925-0919 (h) > Vargo Ed 412-287-3066 > Veeck Mike 305-783-2111 > Vermeil Dick 215-486-0199 > Vincent Fay 212-288-0112 > Viola Frank 305-788-1751 (h) > Visser Lesley 212-752-1832 > Vitale Dick 813-794-6841 > Waitz Grete 904-332-0544 > Wallace Allen 714-494-7866. > Wallace Kenny 704-785-9191 414-931-4307 704-664-2300. > Wallace Mike 910-631-9375. > Wallace Rusty 205-582-3711. > Walsh Bill 415-327-1991 (h) > Walsh Jim 688-6310 > Walton Bill 619-294-9085 > Waltrip Darrell 704-455-3500. > Washington Kermit 503-684-5713 > Washton Arnold Dr 213-4900 > Watson Bob 713-799-9611; 713-467-0760 (h) > Weaver Earl 305-558-2610 > Weber Michael (WWF) 203-352-8600 > Weisman Mike 310-471-5565; 213-551-2270 > White Bill 215-982-5816; 212-754-4611. > White Charles 714-458-3844 > Whitfield Shelby 908-536-7084 > Williams Buck 503-720-1002 > Williams Ted 813-796-7716 > Wilpon Fred 516-773-3800; 212-953-4000; 516-759-5500 (h) > Wilpon Fred 516-759-5500 > Wine Bobby 610-539-6755 (h) > Winfield Dave 213-472-8704 (h) > Winslow Kellen 708-655-5939 > Wladika Vince 212-556-2472; 908-264-3689 (h) > Wolf David 362-3686; 595-0454 > Wolff Roger 618-826-3866 > Wooden John 818-343-2266 > Woods Ickey 513-769-3334 > Woy Bucky 214-252-4738 > Wynn Early 813-485-3996 > Young George 201-935-3491; 201-935-9212; 201-825-7361 (h) > Young Steve 801-226-1010; 801-649-2499 > Youngblood Jack 714-633-2251 > Ziegler John 313-625-2914 > Zimmer Don 813-360-6835 (h) > Ken Macha (Pittsburgh): 724-325-3371 > Jeff Kent's agent, Jeff Klein, (Weil Gotshall Manges) 212-310-8000 > David Bell (Seattle): 206-669-4194 > Reggie Sanders: 602-740-4600 (agent Eric Goldschmidt sp???) > Mark Ellis: 605-484-7526 (Phoenix) > Scott Hatteburg: 253-857-8776 (h), 617-877-6706 , schoop10 at aol.com > Tim Hudson: 813-645-7162, thuddy15 at aol.com > Lou Piniella: 813-265-2023 (home in Tampa, Fla.) > Brian Sabean, general manager: 415-793-3214 , 972-1910 (o) > Ned Colletti, assistant general manager: 415 793 3213 , > ncolletti at sfgiants.com > Giants owner Peter Magowan's assistant: 972-1952 > Russ Ortiz: 480-221-5806 (h in ariz), 480-539-7929 , > play4him48 at aol.com > Rich Aurilia: 602-840-4878 (h), 602-421-0850 , dilli at aol.com > Bud Black cell: 619-548-0306 > Johnnie Baker (Dusty's dad in Sacramento): 916-978-9644 > Billy Beane: 925-855-1665 (h), 510-917-3456 > Barry Zito: 323-481-0084 , leftyripper at aol.com > Mike Venafro: 941-267-7044 (h), 214-684-4853 , mrven1 at aol.com > Kathy Jacobson, Zito's publicist, 925-736-5333 > Jim Zeches, 49ers West Coast regional scout, 408-562-4949 (office), > 480-226-2146 (cell), jzeches at niners.nfl.com From measl at mfn.org Sat Jan 10 16:02:57 2004 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:02:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Greg Broiles wrote: > At 08:59 AM 1/8/2004, Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net wrote: > >The great American experiment finally fizzled on December 1, 2003, when > >the US Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal from a 9th Federal Circuit > >decision which gutted the Second Amendment. It was a nice run - over two > >hundred years. > > > >As of December 1, 2003, the US Supreme Court issued its ruling, refusing > >to hear an appeal in the case of Silveira vs. Lockyer. That made Silveira > >the law of the land, you see. > > No, that's absolutely incorrect. Every conclusion you reach which depends > on that flawed premise is suspect. > > >Further appeals to Congress and the states are no longer a sure bet. The > >soap box and the ballot box have been throughly tried, is it now time to > >get out the ammo box? > > You're forgetting the jury box. What good is a Jury when the "judge" can pick and choose which arguments and evidence you can provide in support of your case? > -- > Greg Broiles > gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm From sfurlong at acmenet.net Sat Jan 10 18:53:42 2004 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: 10 Jan 2004 21:53:42 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> Message-ID: <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 19:02, J.A. Terranson wrote: > What good is a Jury when the "judge" can pick and choose which arguments and > evidence you can provide in support of your case? I've occasionally handed out pamphlets on jury nullification outside the local county courthouse. Never been arrested for it, but I've caught a raft of shit from cops. The cops were acting, presumably, under direction from the judges or maybe the DA. Those guys just hate jurors thinking for themselves, you know. From shaddack at ns.arachne.cz Sat Jan 10 19:05:36 2004 From: shaddack at ns.arachne.cz (Thomas Shaddack) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 04:05:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Spam filter / killfile rule In-Reply-To: <01371946-434C-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <01371946-434C-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <0401110359330.0@somehost.domainz.com> There is a problem here how to killfile (or spamfilter) the more repeated nothing-saying posts without losing also his good stuff as the collateral damage. The good ruleset could be (translate to the syntax of whatever you use): Sender: timcmay at got.net Body contains: smoke Body contains: chimneys A specifically tweaked Bayesian filter could be maybe an option too. From timcmay at got.net Sun Jan 11 09:28:14 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:28:14 -0800 Subject: Canada issues levy on non-removable memory (for MP3 players) In-Reply-To: <20040111112418.422afd9f.blueeskimo@phreaker.net> References: <20040111112418.422afd9f.blueeskimo@phreaker.net> Message-ID: <899EAD5D-445B-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 11, 2004, at 8:24 AM, Adam wrote: > I know this story is quite a bit old, but I really have to wonder how > legal this levy is. > > http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/news/c20032004nr-e.html > > "The Board also sets for the first time a levy on non-removable memory > permanently embedded in digital audio recorders (such as MP3 players) > at > $2 for each recorder with a memory capacity of up to 1 Gigabyte (Gb), > $15 for each recorder with memory capacity of more than 1 Gb and up to > 10 Gbs, and $25 for each recorder with memory capacity of more than 10 > GBs." > > It just seems to me to be a bit sketchy to tax intended illegal usage. > I > mean, that'd be like taxing condoms b/c of prostitution. > > Would something like this go over in the US? I wonder ... It already has, many times. Directly parallel to the Canadian tax is the tax on blank media for music recording, part of the Home Recording Act of 1991. (Or close to that year...Google for details if interested.) This tax was placed on blanks ostensibly to recompense recording artists for taped music. Less directly parallel, but certain "sin taxes," are the various and very high taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, etc. And the exorbitant "luxury taxes" on various expensive things like certain kinds of jewelry, yachts, expensive cars, etc. And various shakedowns of casinos with special taxes, such as Schwarz nigger's "demand" that Indian casinos in California "share their profits" with the state to help with the deficit. And various collectivists and fascists have proposed taxes on ammunition, ostensibly to recompense victims for being shot. (Ignoring the fact that what it would do is penalize those who practice, shooting 200 or more rounds at a trip to the range, while having no effect on the typical gangsta negro or Mexican with less than one box of ammo to his name, but still using his "piece" to shoot several people. The recreational shooter ends up paying 99.9% of the tax, the gangsta pays a dollar or two per box.) The point is, the U.S. taxes what political animals call "sin" quite a bit. --Tim May From s.schear at comcast.net Sun Jan 11 11:18:52 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:18:52 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> At 06:53 PM 1/10/2004, Steve Furlong wrote: >On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 19:02, J.A. Terranson wrote: > > What good is a Jury when the "judge" can pick and choose which > arguments and > > evidence you can provide in support of your case? > >I've occasionally handed out pamphlets on jury nullification outside the >local county courthouse. Never been arrested for it, but I've caught a >raft of shit from cops. The cops were acting, presumably, under >direction from the judges or maybe the DA. Those guys just hate jurors >thinking for themselves, you know. Did you carry and present ID? steve From blueeskimo at phreaker.net Sun Jan 11 08:24:18 2004 From: blueeskimo at phreaker.net (Adam) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:24:18 -0500 Subject: Canada issues levy on non-removable memory (for MP3 players) Message-ID: <20040111112418.422afd9f.blueeskimo@phreaker.net> I know this story is quite a bit old, but I really have to wonder how legal this levy is. http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/news/c20032004nr-e.html "The Board also sets for the first time a levy on non-removable memory permanently embedded in digital audio recorders (such as MP3 players) at $2 for each recorder with a memory capacity of up to 1 Gigabyte (Gb), $15 for each recorder with memory capacity of more than 1 Gb and up to 10 Gbs, and $25 for each recorder with memory capacity of more than 10 GBs." It just seems to me to be a bit sketchy to tax intended illegal usage. I mean, that'd be like taxing condoms b/c of prostitution. Would something like this go over in the US? I wonder ... -- Adam From timcmay at got.net Sun Jan 11 11:57:21 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:57:21 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5E09FF4E-4470-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 11, 2004, at 11:18 AM, Steve Schear wrote: > At 06:53 PM 1/10/2004, Steve Furlong wrote: >> On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 19:02, J.A. Terranson wrote: >> > What good is a Jury when the "judge" can pick and choose which >> arguments and >> > evidence you can provide in support of your case? >> >> I've occasionally handed out pamphlets on jury nullification outside >> the >> local county courthouse. Never been arrested for it, but I've caught a >> raft of shit from cops. The cops were acting, presumably, under >> direction from the judges or maybe the DA. Those guys just hate jurors >> thinking for themselves, you know. > > Did you carry and present ID? > > steve > I don't know if he did, but of course there is no requirement in the U.S. that citizen-units either carry or present ID. Unless they are driving a car or operating a few selected classes of heavy machinery. When I was surrounded by some cops who accused me of planting a bomb to blow up Reichsminister Clinton and his family, I refuse to "show them some ID." I also refused to let them look in my bag. Despite their bluster, they had no grounds for their belief, no grounds for a Terry stop search of my papers, and no grounds to arrest me. So they neither searched my papers forcibly nor arrested me. They did, however, order me to leave the grounds of Stanford University, almost making me late for a talk before Margaret Rader's cyberspace law class, scheduled long, long before the First Fascist scheduled _his_ trip to Stanford. --Tim May From rsw at jfet.org Sun Jan 11 09:22:37 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:22:37 -0500 Subject: Canada issues levy on non-removable memory (for MP3 players) In-Reply-To: <20040111112418.422afd9f.blueeskimo@phreaker.net>; from blueeskimo@phreaker.net on Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 11:24:18AM -0500 References: <20040111112418.422afd9f.blueeskimo@phreaker.net> Message-ID: <20040111122236.A7760@positron.mit.edu> Adam wrote: > Would something like this go over in the US? I wonder ... We allow congress to tell us that we can't have VCRs that don't respect Macrovision. I'm sure the sheeple would have no problem paying reparations for imaginary theft of imaginary property. -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From bgt at chrootlabs.org Sun Jan 11 14:12:44 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:12:44 -0600 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <5E09FF4E-4470-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> <5E09FF4E-4470-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <1073859164.3322.17.camel@nettie> On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 13:57, Tim May wrote: > I don't know if he did, but of course there is no requirement in the > U.S. that citizen-units either carry or present ID. Unless they are > driving a car or operating a few selected classes of heavy machinery. Many states do have laws allowing the police to detain a person for a period of time (varies by state) to ascertain the identity of that person, if they have reasonable suspicion that they are involved in a a crime. I'm not aware of any laws that specifically require a person to actually carry ID, but when I was stopped in NV several years ago, walking back to my home from a nearby grocery store at about 3am, supposedly because a 7-11 nearby had just been robbed, I was told that if I did not present a valid state ID I would be arrested, taken to the precinct HQ, fingerprinted, and held until I could be positively ID'd. The constitutionality of these laws are being challenged. In Hiibel vs. NV, Hiibel refused 11 times to identify himself to police before he was arrested (illegal under NV statute). The NV Supreme Court has upheld the law, with a few dissents: "The dissent then pointed out that the Ninth Circuit federal appeals court not only upholds the right to refuse to provide identification to an officer before arrest, but has specifically found Nev. Rev. Stat. B' 171.123(3) unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment. The dissent opinion criticized the majority for "reflexively reasoning that the public interest in police safety outweighs Hiibel's interest in refusing to identify himself," noting that no evidence exists that an officer is safer for knowing a person's identity. "What the majority fails to recognize," the dissenting opinion continued, "is that it is the observable conduct, not the identity, of a person, upon which an officer must legally rely when investigating crimes and enforcing the law." The US Supreme Court has agreed to review and is scheduled to hear arguments this year. http://www.epic.org/privacy/hiibel/default.html --bgt From sfurlong at acmenet.net Sun Jan 11 14:18:33 2004 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: 11 Jan 2004 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1073859513.5900.3.camel@daft> On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 14:18, Steve Schear wrote: > Did you carry and present ID? No. Once it was requested (strongly requested, just short of a demand with threats), but when I demanded his justification he backed down. In NY, at least at the time, citizens were not required to carry or present ID, nor identify themselves on demand without cause. I believe that is no longer the case. From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk Sun Jan 11 09:54:56 2004 From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (Dave Howe) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:54:56 -0000 Subject: Canada issues levy on non-removable memory (for MP3 players) References: <20040111112418.422afd9f.blueeskimo@phreaker.net> Message-ID: <00b201c3d86d$37f824f0$46c8a8c0@iridium1200> > Would something like this go over in the US? I wonder ... I thought that there was already a levy on blank CDR media in the US; there is certainly already one on blank audio tapes... From jal at jal.org Sun Jan 11 15:20:52 2004 From: jal at jal.org (Jamie Lawrence) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:20:52 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073859513.5900.3.camel@daft> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> <1073859513.5900.3.camel@daft> Message-ID: <20040111232052.GR27315@clueinc.net> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Steve Furlong wrote: > On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 14:18, Steve Schear wrote: > > > Did you carry and present ID? > > No. Once it was requested (strongly requested, just short of a demand > with threats), but when I demanded his justification he backed down. In > NY, at least at the time, citizens were not required to carry or present > ID, nor identify themselves on demand without cause. I believe that is > no longer the case. Correct. A client/friend recently spent 9 hours in jail for failure to carry a wallet. He was doing something mildly suspicious, but not illegal. NYC has a very entrenched industry dealing with "processing" people the cops pick up. This has only gotten worse since Bloomberg and his "quality of life" racket. Breathing Without ID is essentially a crime that costs a day of your life, not less than ~$200, and a lot of humiliation. I thought the San Francisco cops were bad, before I moved here. (My friend was even told by the cops what to expect, and how best to optimize for getting out quickly. Kafka would have trouble doing better.) There was a mildly publicized incident in another part of Brooklyn recently where someone was ticketed after their child's balloon popped in public. A noise infraction. Quality of live, indeed. "There are no quotas, but if you don't meet them, you're on report." I'd prefer a good old fashioned Mafia protection scheme. At least that would be straightforward. -j -- Jamie Lawrence jal at jal.org It it ain't broke, let me have a shot at it. From measl at mfn.org Sun Jan 11 16:45:22 2004 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:45:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> Message-ID: <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Steve Furlong wrote: > I've occasionally handed out pamphlets on jury nullification outside the > local county courthouse. Never been arrested for it, but I've caught a > raft of shit from cops. Have you done this since 9/11? I know that in my [red]neck of the woods, I would without question be spending a few days in the system for this. Interestingly, the first nullification pamphlet I ever received was from a cop I know: he was also handing these out at one time (a loooonggg time ago). Not all LEAs are without clue, just the vast majority of them :-( -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Sun Jan 11 16:48:02 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:48:02 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment Message-ID: At 03:20 PM 1/11/2004, Jamie Lawrence wrote: >A client/friend recently spent 9 hours in jail for failure to carry a wallet. He was doing something mildly suspicious, but not illegal. NYC has a very entrenched industry dealing with "processing" people the cops pick up. This has only gotten worse since Bloomberg and his "quality of life" racket. Breathing Without ID is essentially a crime that costs a day of your life, not less than ~$200, and a lot of humiliation. I thought the San Francisco cops were bad, before I moved here. (My friend was even told by the cops what to expect, and how best to optimize for getting out quickly. Kafka would have trouble doing better.) >There was a mildly publicized incident in another part of Brooklyn recently where someone was ticketed after their child's balloon popped in public. A noise infraction. Quality of live, indeed. "There are no quotas, but if you don't meet them, you're on report." This is one of the 'applications' for Zombie Patriots. Set up those practicing tyranny under color of the law for a quick trip to the coroner. Bring the fun of Hammas to New York. "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago From cpunk at lne.com Sun Jan 11 20:00:01 2004 From: cpunk at lne.com (cpunk at lne.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:00:01 -0800 Subject: Cypherpunks List Info Message-ID: <200401120400.i0C401xd011125@slack.lne.com> Cypherpunks Mailing List Information Last updated: Oct 13, 2003 This message is also available at http://www.lne.com/cpunk Instructions on unsubscribing from the list can be found below. 0. Introduction The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing cryptography and its effect on society. It is not a moderated list (but see exceptions below) and the list operators are not responsible for the list content. Cypherpunks is a distributed mailing list. 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"Reply-to:" removed Privacy policy: private Info: http://www.pro-ns.net/cpunk From timcmay at got.net Sun Jan 11 23:07:22 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:07:22 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073859164.3322.17.camel@nettie> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> <5E09FF4E-4470-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <1073859164.3322.17.camel@nettie> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2004, at 2:12 PM, bgt wrote: > On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 13:57, Tim May wrote: >> I don't know if he did, but of course there is no requirement in the >> U.S. that citizen-units either carry or present ID. Unless they are >> driving a car or operating a few selected classes of heavy machinery. > > Many states do have laws allowing the police to detain a person for > a period of time (varies by state) to ascertain the identity of that > person, if they have reasonable suspicion that they are involved in a > a crime. Duh. Yes, "arrests" are allowed, and have been in all states and in all territories since the beginning of things. The alternative to what you say is that all would remain free until their actual conviction and sentencing. > > I'm not aware of any laws that specifically require a person to > actually carry ID, but when I was stopped in NV several years ago, > walking back to my home from a nearby grocery store at about 3am, > supposedly because a 7-11 nearby had just been robbed, I was told > that if I did not present a valid state ID I would be arrested, > taken to the precinct HQ, fingerprinted, and held until I could > be positively ID'd. There are driver's licenses, for driving. And there are passports, for entering the U.S. (and other countries, but we don't care about that issue here). Those neither driving nor attempting to enter the U.S. need carry no such pieces of documentation. There is no "national ID," nor even "state ID." Period. Read up on the Lawson case in San Diego. --Tim May "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." -- David Friedman From timcmay at got.net Sun Jan 11 23:26:26 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:26:26 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2004, at 4:45 PM, J.A. Terranson wrote: > On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Steve Furlong wrote: > >> I've occasionally handed out pamphlets on jury nullification outside >> the >> local county courthouse. Never been arrested for it, but I've caught a >> raft of shit from cops. > > Have you done this since 9/11? I know that in my [red]neck of the > woods, I > would without question be spending a few days in the system for this. That's what sniper rifles with low light scopes are for: kill one or both or all of the cops who arrested you in this way. Cops who abuse the criminal system and violate constitutional rights blatantly have earned killing. (A Remington 700 or Winchester 70 in .308 or .300 Savage, with something like a Leupold or Swarovski 7 x 40 scope, is very good for this kind of work. Safe shots from 200 meters away. (Yes, much longer shots are possible, but may miss. Do some practice at the range at 200 m to see what I mean.) The Beltway sniper took his shots at this range or closer.) Even easier in redneck, i.e., rural, regions, where most houses are near wooded areas. --Tim May Long Live Falun Gong! Death to the Chinese Communist Party! ****U R G E N T**** Crypto transmission failed...arms shipment to Shanghai delayed...will re-route through Hong Kong...nerve gas (VX) to follow soonest. Death to oppressors of Falun Gong! 2002FC 2bB,25B;bb bB+bbbB* B*b"bKN)C7B B1B1B.B1b!B:b b KbB?B1B1C&B)N)B4bCbObB.B,C7OB6B?B)bOB5N)bB?OK d8-e=d<e>e(g>e=i"ed8 f6g-f3h=.e f/e g>e=d::f d?!e% geee g+ e=d9 f,h ig8f gc...d; e$)e fe$)e8d;f;g;i=e(e d:,h/e>e d8-e=gi"e/>fe1h/ch?d9f/d8 d8*e%=f:d<f%fif1f3=f0d8;e8-e d;ge e?d;,o< h?+e.3e e93d?!d;0h?e (f/d8g' d;d;,ih&e(d8-e=f>e<gh! d8:c From justin-cypherpunks at soze.net Sun Jan 11 15:36:06 2004 From: justin-cypherpunks at soze.net (Justin) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:36:06 +0000 Subject: Current Operational Nodes? In-Reply-To: <3FFD532D.2000007@email-tc3.5sigcmd.army.mil> References: <3FFD532D.2000007@email-tc3.5sigcmd.army.mil> Message-ID: <20040111233606.GA6373@dreams.soze.net> Thoenen, Peter Mr CN Sprint SFOR (2004-01-08 12:55Z) wrote: > Cross posting on multiple nodes since none seem reliable. The minder.net ingress address seems to me to work fine. I subscribed through lne and pro-ds, and both seem to work well, with the following caveat. Based on a brief examination, the reason every other feed doesn't appear to be reliable is that posts made through the lne node are not being forwarded. This will become unimportant once lne shuts down. From timcmay at got.net Mon Jan 12 00:18:13 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:18:13 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073892788.5900.19.camel@daft> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> <5E09FF4E-4470-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <1073859164.3322.17.camel@nettie> <1073892788.5900.19.camel@daft> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2004, at 11:33 PM, Steve Furlong wrote: > On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 02:07, Tim May wrote: > >> Read up on the Lawson case in San Diego. > > Tim is referring to Edward Lawson, arrested repeatedly and convicted > once in the late 1970s for walking around without ID. The appeal made > it > to the Supreme Court, as Kolender v Lawson, 461 US 352 (1983). Lawson's > conviction was overturned on grounds that the "identify yourself" law > was too vague. Not surprisingly, Justice "Actual Innocence" Rehnquist > felt that the law was good and Lawson's conviction was righteous. > > The opinion, with some introductory material, can be found at > http://usff.com/hldl/courtcases/kolendervlawson.html > > A web page discussing this case in relation to a national ID card is > http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/polsciwb/page5.htm > And vast amounts of misinformation are constantly being spread by the popular press, and in popular television shows, and in movies. One of the most popular t.v. shows, the oxymoronically named "Law and Order," almost weekly shows someone being told that if he doesn't help the police his restaurant will be shut down for a week while city health inspectors use a microscope on it. Another meme that is false is spread by "NYPD Blue," "Law and Order," and the Fox show that used to be on: "Cops" (not sure if it still is). Namely, that Fifth Amendment rights against compelled self-incrimination only apply after an actual arrest ("You haven't been arrested yet, so let's not hear about how you can remain silent."), or after an attorney has arrived ("He lawyered up.") The right not to be compelled to provide potentially incriminating evidence is a broad one, deeply enmeshed in our Bill of Rights. Even someone suspected of a crime, even a very serious crime, is under no compulsion to "talk to the police," whether or not he has a lawyer present. There are regrettable exceptions, such as in our "pre-constitutional" (my view of it) grand jury system, where people can be told to tell all they know. Sometimes they get various types of immunity, often the claim is that their grand jury testimony will not be used to convict them (if they not ostensibly the principals in the crime!), and so on. But the fact is that grand jury testimony is often compelled self-incrimination. (And one of the ways the Feds have been getting people they can't get in other, more direct, ways is to interview parties in a case and then find some subtle contradiction. Then the charge is "lying to a federal employee" (or somesuch...maybe the language is "lying in an official investigation," to distinguish it from lying to your neighbor the GS-12 midlevel employee at NASA). What I've done in several cases where I was stopped by cops is to SAY NOTHING. In the Stanford case, I told them I would not be giving them either my name or telling them what my business was that day at Stanford: it was not their business and I saw no reason to satisfy their curiosity. In a couple of cases in Santa Cruz, cops have asked me my name and asked why i was in a particular area. I told them I would be answering no questions. In none of these cases was I arrested, booked, or charged. I would, and have, answer questions if I knew there was no conceivable way I could become a "person of interest" in a case. I have answered police questions in some crimes I have had knowledge of (and wished to see the guilty parties dealt with...I would not lightly aid in a drug case, though. And if one is committing no crime, answering a nosy cop's questions is neither required by my reading of the Constitution nor is healthy. (In the Stanford case, had I given them my name and/or ID, my name would have appeared in a report about "threats to the President, and our resolution of the case"--the SS version of quotas for traffic tickets. (When one cop blurted out to me that he had seen me planting a bomb near the route Clinton would pass by, I _was_ tempted to say "I demand a lawyer!," just so they'd arrest me, etc. But I didn't, which is probably good, as I might have spent a few nights in jail...and felt the requirement to stalk the arresting officers and use a sniper rifle on one or more of them.) We are certainly entering a police state era. Interesting that so many Jews are so strongly behind the fascist measures...Jews like Swinestein, Boxer, Lieberman, and hundreds of others. But, as in the ZOG state, the true heirs of the Third Reich are today's Jews...it would make a good "Outer Limits" episode, except the modern OL was thoroughly leftist, anti-gun, pro-ZOG, and had several episodes involving SS camp guards reincarnated as camp residents, and variations. So having the SS reincarnated in the ZOG state would not have fit their Zionist biases. What the Jews think of Goyim is covered in the quotes from the Talmud, below. --Tim May #1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim (Gentiles) is like killing a wild animal." #2. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated." #3. Yebamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age." #4. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed." #5. Yebamoth 98a: "All gentile children are animals." #6. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean." #7. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts." From sfurlong at acmenet.net Sun Jan 11 23:33:08 2004 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: 12 Jan 2004 02:33:08 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> <5E09FF4E-4470-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <1073859164.3322.17.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <1073892788.5900.19.camel@daft> On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 02:07, Tim May wrote: > Read up on the Lawson case in San Diego. Tim is referring to Edward Lawson, arrested repeatedly and convicted once in the late 1970s for walking around without ID. The appeal made it to the Supreme Court, as Kolender v Lawson, 461 US 352 (1983). Lawson's conviction was overturned on grounds that the "identify yourself" law was too vague. Not surprisingly, Justice "Actual Innocence" Rehnquist felt that the law was good and Lawson's conviction was righteous. The opinion, with some introductory material, can be found at http://usff.com/hldl/courtcases/kolendervlawson.html A web page discussing this case in relation to a national ID card is http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/polsciwb/page5.htm From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Mon Jan 12 09:21:02 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:21:02 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment Message-ID: At 03:20 PM 1/11/2004, Jamie Lawrence wrote: >A client/friend recently spent 9 hours in jail for failure to carry a wallet. He was doing something mildly suspicious, but not illegal. NYC has a very entrenched industry dealing with "processing" people the cops pick up. This has only gotten worse since Bloomberg and his "quality of life" racket. Breathing Without ID is essentially a crime that costs a day of your life, not less than ~$200, and a lot of humiliation. I thought the San Francisco cops were bad, before I moved here. (My friend was even told by the cops what to expect, and how best to optimize for getting out quickly. Kafka would have trouble doing better.) >There was a mildly publicized incident in another part of Brooklyn recently where someone was ticketed after their child's balloon popped in public. A noise infraction. Quality of live, indeed. "There are no quotas, but if you don't meet them, you're on report." This is one of the 'applications' for Zombie Patriots. Set up those practicing tyranny under color of the law for a quick trip to the coroner. Bring the fun of Hammas to New York. "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago From timcmay at got.net Mon Jan 12 12:37:03 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:37:03 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073932854.1136.21.camel@nettie> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> <5E09FF4E-4470-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <1073859164.3322.17.camel@nettie> <1073932854.1136.21.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <1423F6EC-453F-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 12, 2004, at 10:40 AM, bgt wrote: > > On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 01:07, Tim May wrote: >> On Jan 11, 2004, at 2:12 PM, bgt wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 13:57, Tim May wrote: >>>> I don't know if he did, but of course there is no requirement in the >>>> U.S. that citizen-units either carry or present ID. Unless they are >>>> driving a car or operating a few selected classes of heavy >>>> machinery. >>> >>> Many states do have laws allowing the police to detain a person for >>> a period of time (varies by state) to ascertain the identity of that >>> person, if they have reasonable suspicion that they are involved in a >>> a crime. >> >> Duh. Yes, "arrests" are allowed, and have been in all states and in >> all > > Perhaps I wasn't very clear. That is (in many states, probably > not all), a cop may stop (detain) someone on "reasonable suspicion", > but it would still be illegal to arrest the person (since this would > require "probably cause"). This has come up various times on the Net. I'm not a lawyer, but I take "arrest" to mean "not free to move on." As in a state of arrest (cognate to rest), arrested motion, arrested development. Hence the common question: "Am I under arrest?," with the follow-up: "If not, then I'll be on my way." Arrest is not the same thing as being booked, of course. Many who are arrested are never booked. Arrest, to this nonlawyer, is when a cop tells me I am not free to move as I wish, that he will handcuff me or worse if I try to move away from him. I expect our millions of lawyers and hundreds of billions of court hours have produced a range of definitions, from "the cop wants to know why you're reading a particular magazine, and will cuff you if you give him any lip" to "all black men within a 5 block radius are being detained for questioning, but are not under formal arrest" to "you're under arrest, put your hands behind your back" to shooting first and Mirandizing the corpse. I am under arrest if I am in an arrested state of movement, that is, not free to move as I wish. > In these states, at this point the person > is required by law to identify himself, and in some states even to > provide proof of identification. If the person cannot or will not do > this, it is legal in those states (though as we know, blatantly > unconstitutional) to further detain or even arrest the person until > their identity can be determined. Again, people need to read up on the Lawson case. And absent an internal travel passport, there is no requirement to carry ID. That some states haven't heard about the Lawson case, or the Fourth Amendment, is no excuse. > You must mean /mandatory/ "state ID". Every state I've lived in have > State ID's that are (voluntarily) issued to residents that can't get > or don't want a driver's license. All of these states grant their ID > the same status as a driver's license for identification purposes > (anywhere that accepts driver's license as valid ID must also accept > the state ID). As I said, there is no requirement to carry ID except when doing certain things (like driving). Whether some or most states will issue licenses to those who don't or can't drive is irrelevant: they are not REQUIRED to be carried, so not having one cannot possibly be a crime. > >> Read up on the Lawson case in San Diego. > > (Thanks Steve for the links). I provided "Lawson" and "San Diego." Plenty of stuff to find hundreds of discussions. I favor giving unique information sufficient in a Google search, not providing pre-digested search URLs. --Tim May "We should not march into Baghdad. To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter- day Arab hero. Assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinable urban guerilla war, it could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater instability." --George H. W. Bush, "A World Transformed", 1998 From bgt at chrootlabs.org Mon Jan 12 10:40:54 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:40:54 -0600 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <6.0.1.1.0.20040111111828.052342a8@mail.comcast.net> <5E09FF4E-4470-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <1073859164.3322.17.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <1073932854.1136.21.camel@nettie> On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 01:07, Tim May wrote: > On Jan 11, 2004, at 2:12 PM, bgt wrote: > > > On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 13:57, Tim May wrote: > >> I don't know if he did, but of course there is no requirement in the > >> U.S. that citizen-units either carry or present ID. Unless they are > >> driving a car or operating a few selected classes of heavy machinery. > > > > Many states do have laws allowing the police to detain a person for > > a period of time (varies by state) to ascertain the identity of that > > person, if they have reasonable suspicion that they are involved in a > > a crime. > > Duh. Yes, "arrests" are allowed, and have been in all states and in all Perhaps I wasn't very clear. That is (in many states, probably not all), a cop may stop (detain) someone on "reasonable suspicion", but it would still be illegal to arrest the person (since this would require "probably cause"). In these states, at this point the person is required by law to identify himself, and in some states even to provide proof of identification. If the person cannot or will not do this, it is legal in those states (though as we know, blatantly unconstitutional) to further detain or even arrest the person until their identity can be determined. Nevada's version of this has been ruled unconstitutional by the Ninth Circuit and the case is still pending in the US Supreme Court. > need carry no such pieces of documentation. There is no "national ID," > nor even "state ID." > > Period. You must mean /mandatory/ "state ID". Every state I've lived in have State ID's that are (voluntarily) issued to residents that can't get or don't want a driver's license. All of these states grant their ID the same status as a driver's license for identification purposes (anywhere that accepts driver's license as valid ID must also accept the state ID). > Read up on the Lawson case in San Diego. (Thanks Steve for the links). The Lawson case appears to be another example of the Supreme Court abdicating their responsibilities. There were no fourth amendment objections to CA's law in their decision. The Court said the law was unconstitutional because it was not specific enough, leaving too much discretion to the cop about what satisfies the identification requirement, when of course they should have ruled that the identification requirement itself is unconstitutional. There were no real objections to the principle behind the law, which is a damn shame. The closest I could find was in the dissent: "Of course, if the statute on its face violates the Fourth or Fifth Amendment--and I express no views about that question--the Court would be justified in striking it down. But the majority apparently cannot bring itself to take this course." --bgt From timcmay at got.net Mon Jan 12 12:48:45 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:48:45 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2004, at 10:55 AM, bgt wrote: > On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 01:26, Tim May wrote: >>> Have you done this since 9/11? I know that in my [red]neck of the >>> woods, I >>> would without question be spending a few days in the system for this. >> >> That's what sniper rifles with low light scopes are for: kill one or >> both or all of the cops who arrested you in this way. Cops who abuse >> the criminal system and violate constitutional rights blatantly have >> earned killing. > > This has probably been mentioned here before, but another interesting > approach is what justicefiles.org used to do (I'm not sure what > the status of the site is, it seems to be down now). > > They collected the names of police officers (particularly ones > known to be abusive of their authority) in King County, WA and > published that + all public information they could find on them > (including SSN's, addresses, phone numbers, etc). > > Of course the police tried to take the site down but the court > upheld the site's right to publish any publicly available > information about the cops (I believe they excepted the SSN's). The First Amendment is quite clear about prior restraint and censorship. Not only is it legal for "The Progressive" to publish details of how to make a hydrogen bomb, and for the "New York Times" to publish the Pentagon Papers, but it is legal to publish SS numbers when they become available. Now civil actions are another can of worms, and Bill Gates, for example, may sue somebody for publishing his SS number. Or I may sue the U.S. Marshal's Service for illegally using my SS number as a legal ID (which my SS card, still in my possession from when I got it in 1969) says is to be used for tax and Social Security purposes ONLY and MAY NOT be used for identifcation) and letting it circulate over the Net. But such civil suits--by Gates, by cops, by me--are NOT the same as prior restraint on publishing words. (Though of course this is only the _theory_. The fact that all of the Bill of Rights, except perhaps the Third, have been violated by the Evildoers in government is well-known.) --Tim May From timcmay at got.net Mon Jan 12 12:53:20 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:53:20 -0800 Subject: Arrest and Identification Message-ID: <5A72304E-4541-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Reminder about talking to cops, being stopped and held by cops, being told to produce ID, etc. As there's much of the old chatter here about these issues, I dug up the ACLU card that is recommended to be carried by all persons. Or read and understood. Here's a Web version. A PDF version for efficient printing is also available: A couple of paragraphs relevant to the current discussion about whether being stopped for question is "arrest," whether ID is required to be carried, etc.: --begin excerpt 2. You don't have to answer a police officer's questions, but you must show your driver's license and registration when stopped in a car. In other situations, you can't legally be arrested for refusing to identify yourself to a police officer. 3. You don't have to consent to any search of yourself, your car or your house. If you DO consent to a search, it can affect your rights later in court. If the police say they have a search warrant, ASK TO SEE IT. 4. Do not interfere with, or obstruct the police -- you can be arrested for it. IF YOU ARE STOPPED FOR QUESTIONING 1. It's not a crime to refuse to answer questions, but refusing to answer can make the police suspicious about you. You can't be arrested merely for refusing to identify yourself on the street. 2. Police may "pat-down" your clothing if they suspect a concealed weapon. Don't physically resist, but make it clear that you don't consent to any further search. 3. Ask if you are under arrest. If you are, you have a right to know why. --end excerpt-- --Tim May "'I'm sorry that Tim is being a bother again. He has a long history of being obnoxious and threatening. So far, he has not broken any laws. We have talked to the authorities about him on numerous occasions. They have chosen to watch but not act. Please feel free to notify me f he does anything that is beyond rude and actually violates any laws and I will immediately inform the authorities. Thank You Don Fredrickson From bgt at chrootlabs.org Mon Jan 12 10:55:18 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:55:18 -0600 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> Message-ID: <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 01:26, Tim May wrote: > > Have you done this since 9/11? I know that in my [red]neck of the > > woods, I > > would without question be spending a few days in the system for this. > > That's what sniper rifles with low light scopes are for: kill one or > both or all of the cops who arrested you in this way. Cops who abuse > the criminal system and violate constitutional rights blatantly have > earned killing. This has probably been mentioned here before, but another interesting approach is what justicefiles.org used to do (I'm not sure what the status of the site is, it seems to be down now). They collected the names of police officers (particularly ones known to be abusive of their authority) in King County, WA and published that + all public information they could find on them (including SSN's, addresses, phone numbers, etc). Of course the police tried to take the site down but the court upheld the site's right to publish any publicly available information about the cops (I believe they excepted the SSN's). --bgt From timcmay at got.net Mon Jan 12 14:14:11 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:14:11 -0800 Subject: Inviting the vampires into the house Message-ID: By the way, something else from that ACLU site I cited (and sighted): --begin excerpt-- IN YOUR HOME 1. If the police knock and ask to enter your home, you don't have to admit them unless they have a warrant signed by a judge. 2. However, in some emergency situations (like when a person is screaming for help inside, or when the police are chasing someone) officers are allowed to enter and search your home without a warrant. 3. If you are arrested, the police can search you and the area close by. If you are in a building, "close by" usually means just the room you are in. --end excerpt-- This is why one should _never_ invite cops into a house, even for a chat. They may use nearly any grounds to make an "arrest" (again, arrest does not necessarily mean a booking, or a formal charging, just an arrest of one's freedom to move about or leave). Once an arrest has been made, they may then search the premises (as above) based on this arrest. And anything they see in other areas "in plain sight," such as bottles of pills or a rifle case, etc., may be used to expand the search. I've also heard it reported that it is _easier_ for cops to arrest a person if he steps _outside_ his house. Not sure why, but it may have to do with some reptilian brain memory of "a man's home is his castle" or even to court precedent related to the above example. In other words, arresting a person in his home opens the home up to warrantless searches "so avoid this if possible." It seems to me the ideal balance is then this: -- if cops knock and one decides to answer the door rather than hole up or shoot it out, then: -- talk to them from inside the home -- don't invite them in -- and don't step out -- keep them on the outside and oneself on the inside Of course, answering the door and, after hearing what their business is (it might be something unrelated to one's own legal status, such as a warning about an impending flood, etc.), one can and probably _should_ say "I have nothing to say to you." Then they can make the next move, either escalating things to an arrest or presenting a duly-signed search warrant (which one can check...and my idea of "checking" would mean closing my door and calling the court house to verify that the named judge did in fact sign a warrant for my address....this is what "duly signed" can only mean, that the presentee gets to check it). (I would never say "Talk to my lawyer" for two reasons. First, I don't keep a lawyer on retainer or even know the name of one. Second, lawyers bill by the quarter hour...I recall in the case of a probate matter I was involved in, that merely phoning the lawyer to ask a simple question showed up as a $75 charge on his probate fee bill. And this guy was just a probate lawyer shlub, not even a highly paid Jew criminal lawyer! There is no way I will let a nosy cop run up a tab with some shyster.) --Tim May "The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat From cypherpunks at salvagingelectrons.com Mon Jan 12 11:31:40 2004 From: cypherpunks at salvagingelectrons.com (Tim Meehan) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:31:40 -0500 Subject: Ontario, Canada's Largest Marijuana Growing Operation -- Molson Brewery, Barrie, Ontario Message-ID: <9ft500hplrvmfp1rbev2r56oo52vjet5jj@4ax.com> News Stories: http://www.mapinc.org/people/molson A marijuana growing operation at the former Molson brewery in Barrie -- thought to be the largest ever discovered in the province -- is twice as big as originally thought. Pictures of the operation: http://www.cannabisculture.com/uploads//771096-1.jpg http://www.cannabisculture.com/uploads//771098-2.jpg http://www.cannabisculture.com/uploads//771100-3.jpg http://www.cannabisculture.com/uploads//771104-4.jpg http://www.cannabisculture.com/uploads//771107-5.jpg http://www.cannabisculture.com/uploads//771110-6.jpg http://www.cannabisculture.com/uploads//771111-7.jpg http://www.cannabisculture.com/uploads//771114-8.jpg -- Fill The Hill * Ottawa, Canada -- Saturday, June 5th '04 * fillthehill.ca From rsw at jfet.org Mon Jan 12 12:47:59 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:47:59 -0500 Subject: new CDR node? Message-ID: <20040112154759.A19833@positron.mit.edu> I'm thinking of setting up a new CDR node much like LNE's. Current CDR operators, would you email me off-list so we can discuss adding me to the backbone and arrange to transfer user lists so that I can limit posting to subscribers (and of course known anonymous entry points). Sorry for not emailing y'all individually, but I don't really know which nodes are still alive (there seems to be some question about that in general) and thought I'd get better results this way. Cool. -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From mv at cdc.gov Mon Jan 12 17:12:06 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:12:06 -0800 Subject: spoofing Tomboy Ridge Message-ID: <400345E6.4C6BA836@cdc.gov> At 12:21 PM 1/12/04 -0500, Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net wrote: >>There was a mildly publicized incident in another part of Brooklyn >recently where someone was ticketed after their child's balloon popped >in public. I recently asked a NYC friend if he had popped off firecrackers in NY Square recently. He hadn't, spoilsport. From mv at cdc.gov Mon Jan 12 17:14:50 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:14:50 -0800 Subject: Hello BGT Message-ID: <4003468A.BA7001B6@cdc.gov> At 12:55 PM 1/12/04 -0600, bgt wrote: >Of course the police tried to take the site down but the court >upheld the site's right to publish any publicly available >information about the cops (I believe they excepted the SSN's). > >--bgt The SSNs were initially published, later removed in an incremental withdrawl, as I recall. ....... I think people have not quite gotten their hands around the speed at which information can be disseminated online. -Monica Lewinsky, LATimes 9 may 01 http://www.latimes.com/business/columns/celebsetup/lat_monica010510.htm From sfurlong at acmenet.net Mon Jan 12 19:46:40 2004 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: 12 Jan 2004 22:46:40 -0500 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <1073965600.10475.12.camel@daft> On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 15:48, Tim May wrote: > (Though of course this is only the _theory_. The fact that all of the > Bill of Rights, except perhaps the Third, have been violated by the > Evildoers in government is well-known.) A few years ago I wrote a short paper looking at government-installed snoopware in terms of the 3rd A. Given that the other BoR amendments have been broadly interpreted in light of new technology, it's reasonable to view software as "soldiers". In light of the Scarfo case (keyboard sniffer software installed in a black-bag operation, ca. 1990) I'd argue that the Fedz have violated the 3rd A. (My paper was before Scarfo, so I claim some prescience. Alas.) SRF From timcmay at got.net Mon Jan 12 23:23:01 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:23:01 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073965600.10475.12.camel@daft> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> <1073965600.10475.12.camel@daft> Message-ID: <524142DD-4599-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 12, 2004, at 7:46 PM, Steve Furlong wrote: > On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 15:48, Tim May wrote: > >> (Though of course this is only the _theory_. The fact that all of the >> Bill of Rights, except perhaps the Third, have been violated by the >> Evildoers in government is well-known.) > > A few years ago I wrote a short paper looking at government-installed > snoopware in terms of the 3rd A. Given that the other BoR amendments > have been broadly interpreted in light of new technology, it's > reasonable to view software as "soldiers". In light of the Scarfo case > (keyboard sniffer software installed in a black-bag operation, ca. > 1990) > I'd argue that the Fedz have violated the 3rd A. (My paper was before > Scarfo, so I claim some prescience. Alas.) > During the Carnivore debate, I argued that mandatory placement of computer agents in systems was equivalent to quartering troops: < http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks at algebra.com/msg03198.html> "The Third Amendment, about quartering troops, is seldom-applied. "But if I own a computer and I rent out accounts to others and the FBI comes to me and says "We are putting a Carnivore computer in your place," how else can this be interpreted _except_ as a violation of the Third?" This was from July, 2000. I believe it also came up in earlier discussions, including in a panel I was on with Michael Froomkin at a CFP in 1995. --Tim May From s.schear at comcast.net Tue Jan 13 08:41:41 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:41:41 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <524142DD-4599-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> <1073965600.10475.12.camel@daft> <524142DD-4599-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040113082106.053825d8@mail.comcast.net> At 11:23 PM 1/12/2004, Tim May wrote: >During the Carnivore debate, I argued that mandatory placement of computer >agents in systems was equivalent to quartering troops: > >< http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks at algebra.com/msg03198.html> > >"The Third Amendment, about >quartering troops, is seldom-applied. > >"But if I own a computer and I rent out accounts to others and the FBI >comes to me and says "We are putting a Carnivore computer in your >place," how else can this be interpreted _except_ as a violation of >the Third?" > >This was from July, 2000. I believe it also came up in earlier >discussions, including in a panel I was on with Michael Froomkin at a CFP >in 1995. I could assume this also applies to the the TCPS (if it is ever required) and FCC's new mandate that DTV video devices sold in the U.S. after December 31, 2004 include a 'cop' inside to enforce compliance with the broadcast flag. steve From timcmay at got.net Tue Jan 13 10:48:23 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:48:23 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040113082106.053825d8@mail.comcast.net> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> <1073965600.10475.12.camel@daft> <524142DD-4599-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <6.0.1.1.0.20040113082106.053825d8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <105F7140-45F9-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 13, 2004, at 8:41 AM, Steve Schear wrote: > At 11:23 PM 1/12/2004, Tim May wrote: > >> During the Carnivore debate, I argued that mandatory placement of >> computer agents in systems was equivalent to quartering troops: >> >> < http://www.mail-archive.com/cypherpunks at algebra.com/msg03198.html> >> >> "The Third Amendment, about >> quartering troops, is seldom-applied. >> >> "But if I own a computer and I rent out accounts to others and the FBI >> comes to me and says "We are putting a Carnivore computer in your >> place," how else can this be interpreted _except_ as a violation of >> the Third?" >> >> This was from July, 2000. I believe it also came up in earlier >> discussions, including in a panel I was on with Michael Froomkin at a >> CFP in 1995. > > I could assume this also applies to the the TCPS (if it is ever > required) and FCC's new mandate that DTV video devices sold in the > U.S. after December 31, 2004 include a 'cop' inside to enforce > compliance with the broadcast flag. In its purest form, I think not. If Alice is told that she must place some device in something she owns, which was the example with Carnivore, then the Third applies (she has been told to "quarter troops," abstractly, in her home). If, however, Bob is told that in order to build television sets or VCRs he must include various noise suppression devices, as he must, or closed-captioning features, as he must, or the V-chip (as I believe he must, though I never hear of it being talked about, as we all figured would be the case), or the Macrovision devices (as may be the case), then this is a matter of regulation of those devices. Whether Alice then _chooses_ to buy such devices with "troops already living in them," abstractly speaking, is her choice. Now the manufacturer may have a claim, but government regulation of manufacturers has been going on for a very long time, and unless a manufacturer can claim that the devices must be in his own home or operated in his premises, he cannot make a very strong case that _he_ is the one being affected by the quartering. The pure form of the Third (in this abstract sense) is when government knocks on one's door and says "Here is something you must put inside your house." By the way, there have been a bunch of cases where residents of a neighborhood were ordered to leave so that SWAT teams could be in their houses to monitor a nearby house where a hostage situation had developed. (It is possible that in each house they occupied they received uncoerced permission to occupy the houses, but I don't think this was always the case; however, I can't cite a concrete case of this. Maybe Lexis has one.) If this takeover of houses to launch a raid is not a "black letter law" case of the government quartering troops in residences, nothing is. Exigent circumstance, perhaps, but so was King George's need to quarter his troops. --Tim May ""Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." --Patrick Henry From declan at well.com Tue Jan 13 09:20:29 2004 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:20:29 -0600 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie>; from bgt@chrootlabs.org on Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 12:55:18PM -0600 References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <20040113112029.A29556@baltwash.com> On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 12:55:18PM -0600, bgt wrote: > This has probably been mentioned here before, but another interesting > approach is what justicefiles.org used to do (I'm not sure what > the status of the site is, it seems to be down now). I believe the fellow who put up the site took it down in the last year, according to his lawyer, saying the purpose was served. I'm guessing he was probably tired of dealing with all the threats from cops as well. -Declan From dog3 at eruditium.org Tue Jan 13 08:48:02 2004 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:48:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <534373A4-3C8E-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tim May wrote: > On Jan 1, 2004, at 8:51 AM, Tyler Durden wrote: > > I'll tell you a story. > > > > Back in the late 1980s I taught at a notorious HS in Bedford > >snip >snip > > Second, we are fast-moving toward a society and economy where only > those who _wanted_ to study math and science by the time they were in > high school will have anything more than a menial, makework job. Now > whether they go the full course and get a college degree or advanced > degree is not so much the point as it is that they were intrinsically > interested. Shoot, Sign me UP for that menial, makework job. For the first time in YEARS, I finally saw ditchdiggers at work, Guess it's finally cheaper again to use "guest workers" than to rent a ditchwitch. The equipment rental houses aren't too happy about that I'll bet. So much for the information super-hiway. The "guest workers" were pulling conduit for fiber through the muck. Mom always said I was going to be a ditch digger, I was cool with that. Turns out, that it made more sense to build equipment that did a much better job at ditching in less time than manual ditching. Nearly half a century later, I ended up a network administrator. Kinda like digging ditches, but not as healthy. Now, thanks to the Best and Brightest, The elite, and the fundamental masters of the universe, where all folks get what they deserve, Good honest, hard labor, that was so hard to find, -because it makes so much more sense to take that "can-do" redneck tool-spinning attitude and put it to work building equipment rather than wasting it on the task better served by equipment- is now back, and back in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. For a short while, it was almost possible to earn a living wage doing real work. Oh well, that's all over now. As for math and physics, I like to say I "audited Feyman's freshman physics lecture series" because I bought the CDs and listend to them alot, but without a good functional understanding of physics and math, you are not as able to do good, productive physical work, be that swamping, or ditch digging. On the other hand, I have always thought that someone who can sink a 16d nail in 3 swings of a hammer is a damned site more useful in a *society* than yet still another chip designer. We got to the fucking moon without chip designers, and what have we done since? nothing worth remembering. From s.schear at comcast.net Tue Jan 13 13:28:36 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:28:36 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment In-Reply-To: <105F7140-45F9-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> <1073965600.10475.12.camel@daft> <524142DD-4599-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <6.0.1.1.0.20040113082106.053825d8@mail.comcast.net> <105F7140-45F9-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040113132431.053720a8@mail.comcast.net> At 10:48 AM 1/13/2004, Tim May wrote: >On Jan 13, 2004, at 8:41 AM, Steve Schear wrote: >>>This was from July, 2000. I believe it also came up in earlier >>>discussions, including in a panel I was on with Michael Froomkin at a >>>CFP in 1995. >> >>I could assume this also applies to the the TCPS (if it is ever required) >>and FCC's new mandate that DTV video devices sold in the U.S. after >>December 31, 2004 include a 'cop' inside to enforce compliance with the >>broadcast flag. > >In its purest form, I think not. > >If Alice is told that she must place some device in something she owns, >which was the example with Carnivore, then the Third applies (she has been >told to "quarter troops," abstractly, in her home). > >If, however, Bob is told that in order to build television sets or VCRs he >must include various noise suppression devices, as he must, or >closed-captioning features, as he must, or the V-chip (as I believe he >must, though I never hear of it being talked about, as we all figured >would be the case), or the Macrovision devices (as may be the case), then >this is a matter of regulation of those devices. Whether Alice then >_chooses_ to buy such devices with "troops already living in them," >abstractly speaking, is her choice. > >Now the manufacturer may have a claim, but government regulation of >manufacturers has been going on for a very long time, and unless a >manufacturer can claim that the devices must be in his own home or >operated in his premises, he cannot make a very strong case that _he_ is >the one being affected by the quartering. It would seem that once GNURadio comes to fruition that many devices, including those the FCC would like to regulate, could be built from its generic, non-video, architecture. In that case, wouldn't FCC mandates applied to end-users (since end users will be the only ones who will configure the SW, FW and HW for an application the FCC would like to regulate, be a 3rd Amend. issue? steve From bgt at chrootlabs.org Tue Jan 13 22:20:53 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:20:53 -0600 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1074061253.1190.47.camel@nettie> On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 10:48, cubic-dog wrote: > in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who > will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. This kind of rhetoric is extremely irritating. If they can be deported, they are neither slaves or indentured servants. If they voluntarily came to this country, and voluntarily accepted 90 cents/hr, From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Wed Jan 14 01:27:08 2004 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 04:27:08 -0500 Subject: new CDR node? In-Reply-To: <20040112154759.A19833@positron.mit.edu> References: <20040112154759.A19833@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Monday, 12 Jan 2004 at 15:47, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > I'm thinking of setting up a new CDR node much like LNE's. Current > CDR operators, would you email me off-list so we can discuss adding me > to the backbone and arrange to transfer user lists so that I can limit > posting to subscribers (and of course known anonymous entry points). Create your own white list. Include your own subscribers. Inspect rejects and add any valid emails' addresses. > Sorry for not emailing y'all individually, but I don't really know > which nodes are still alive (there seems to be some question about > that in general) and thought I'd get better results this way. > > Cool. > > -- > Riad Wahby > rsw at jfet.org > MIT VI-2 M.Eng From mv at cdc.gov Wed Jan 14 10:42:33 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:42:33 -0800 Subject: US Finally Kills The 2nd Ammendment Message-ID: <40058D98.4A9FDAE1@cdc.gov> At 01:28 PM 1/13/04 -0800, Steve Schear wrote: >It would seem that once GNURadio comes to fruition that many devices, >including those the FCC would like to regulate, could be built from its >generic, non-video, architecture. In that case, wouldn't FCC mandates >applied to end-users (since end users will be the only ones who will >configure the SW, FW and HW for an application the FCC would like to >regulate, be a 3rd Amend. issue? The FCC could consider the GNUser to be a "manufacturer", just like the ATF does if you change the sear on your semiauto rifle or trim the stock and barrel too much.. While they don't have the black flak jacket penache of the ATF thugs, the FCC does enforce things if you play on the wrong bands. Reception, of course, is a little harder to monitor :-) From bgt at chrootlabs.org Wed Jan 14 08:51:37 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:51:37 -0600 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <1074061253.1190.47.camel@nettie> References: <1074061253.1190.47.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <1074099097.1171.2.camel@nettie> Aargh, damn computer... I apologize for my incomplete post. On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 00:20, bgt wrote: > On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 10:48, cubic-dog wrote: > > in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who > > will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. > > This kind of rhetoric is extremely irritating. If they can > be deported, they are neither slaves or indentured servants. > > If they voluntarily came to this country, and voluntarily accepted 90 > cents/hr, From bgt at chrootlabs.org Wed Jan 14 08:56:26 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:56:26 -0600 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <1074099097.1171.2.camel@nettie> References: <1074061253.1190.47.camel@nettie> <1074099097.1171.2.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <1074099386.1169.8.camel@nettie> > On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 00:20, bgt wrote: > > On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 10:48, cubic-dog wrote: > > > in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who > > > will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. > > > > This kind of rhetoric is extremely irritating. If they can > > be deported, they are neither slaves or indentured servants. ... Anyway... "be productive or be deported" does not constitute slavery, and neither does the fact that someone is willing to work for substantially less than you. In fact, it is only Free people who can sell their product (including their own labor) for whatever they want (and, obviously, that someone will pay). --bgt From ericm at lne.com Wed Jan 14 11:08:54 2004 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:08:54 -0800 Subject: new CDR node? In-Reply-To: ; from anmetet@freedom.gmsociety.org on Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 04:27:08AM -0500 References: <20040112154759.A19833@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20040114110854.A3664@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 04:27:08AM -0500, An Metet wrote: > On Monday, 12 Jan 2004 at 15:47, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > > I'm thinking of setting up a new CDR node much like LNE's. Current > > CDR operators, would you email me off-list so we can discuss adding me > > to the backbone and arrange to transfer user lists so that I can limit > > posting to subscribers (and of course known anonymous entry points). > > Create your own white list. Include your own subscribers. Inspect rejects > and add any valid emails' addresses. That means that more posts from list members languish awaiting forwarding. Eric From s.schear at comcast.net Wed Jan 14 11:27:55 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:27:55 -0800 Subject: Hand-Held Device for DVD Movies Raises Legal Issues Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040114112528.0557ebe8@mail.comcast.net> Hand-Held Device for DVD Movies Raises Legal Issues PARIS -- Hollywood's bid to control how its movies are copied, stored and played is being tested by an unlikely source: a former French oil engineer in an out-of-the-way Paris suburb, Wednesday's Wall Street Journal reported. Henri Crohas's company, Archos SA, makes a small hand-held device, like a bulky Palm Pilot, that can record and then play back scores of movies, TV shows and digital photos on its color screen or a TV set. The gadget -- which in effect does to movies what Apple Computer Inc.'s iPod does to music -- already has sold 100,000 units world-wide during the past six months, beating the big consumer electronics makers to the U.S. market. Archos's device, which costs about $500 to $900 depending on the model, ignores an anticopying code found on a majority of prerecorded DVDs. That means consumers can plug the Archos device into a DVD player and transfer a movie to it. Users also can transfer recorded TV programs and digital music files to the Archos device. The Archos uses a video compression standard called MPEG-4 to cram as many as 320 hours of video at near-DVD quality onto its hard drive, the company says -- the equivalent of 160 two-hour movies. A second kind of anticopying protection thwarts users from recording a playable copy of a DVD movie onto the hard-drive of a personal computer and then onto the Archos. But videos can be transferred from the Archos to a PC, where they could be burned onto a DVD or sent over the Internet, though that would likely violate copyright laws. The gadgets alone aren't likely to spawn a Napster-style boom in online film piracy. Already, scofflaws with a PC equipped with a DVD player and special software can rip off films and share them over the Internet. And the process is slow: It takes as long to copy a DVD movie to the Archos device as it does to watch the movie. Still, Mr. Crohas and his 150-employee team at Archos ( pronounced AR kos) present a fresh headache for Hollywood because they show how the industry's campaign to keep control of its films could be challenged by small players. Wall Street Journal Staff Reporters Kevin J. Delaney and Bruce Orwall contributed to this article. From bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk Wed Jan 14 05:00:42 2004 From: bbrow07 at students.bbk.ac.uk (ken) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:00:42 +0000 Subject: spoofing Tomboy Ridge In-Reply-To: <400345E6.4C6BA836@cdc.gov> References: <400345E6.4C6BA836@cdc.gov> Message-ID: <40053D7A.5070802@students.bbk.ac.uk> Major Variola (ret) wrote: > At 12:21 PM 1/12/04 -0500, Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net wrote: > >>>There was a mildly publicized incident in another part of Brooklyn >> >>recently where someone was ticketed after their child's balloon popped >>in public. > > > I recently asked a NYC friend if he had popped off firecrackers > in NY Square recently. He hadn't, spoilsport. Over here in Eurotrash statist London people set off fireworks all over the place, for all sorts of excuses. I probably hear or see some sort of firework party about once a week, sometimes just in someone's back garden. And real ones too, rockets & mortars, not namby-pamby "firecrackers". Also sometimes a big public affair - it seems to be the current fashion to use lots of fireworks when a construction project is finished. In the weeks around our big bonfire celebrations in November kids throw them in the streets for a laugh. Though they are getting more available at other times of the year now. The other week I noticed two firework shops within a few yards of each other in leafy north London suburb of Barnet. Some nanny-staters (usually conservatives who fear teenagers and think that all proles should be locked in their hutches at night watching TV and eatng junk food) write to the newspapers and demand that fireworks should be banned. The government has pathetically caved in to the extent that they intend to introduce local bans on setting off fireworks after 11pm. I don't think that public opinion would hold with the kind of restrictions on fireworks that many US states seem to have. From bgt at chrootlabs.org Wed Jan 14 11:45:10 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:45:10 -0600 Subject: Quartering soldiers In-Reply-To: <105F7140-45F9-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040109173438.02e13ec0@miles.parrhesia.com> <20040110180219.R98144@mx1.mfn.org> <1073789622.21798.1.camel@daft> <20040111184252.V14657@mx1.mfn.org> <1073933718.1134.27.camel@nettie> <1073965600.10475.12.camel@daft> <524142DD-4599-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> <6.0.1.1.0.20040113082106.053825d8@mail.comcast.net> <105F7140-45F9-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> Message-ID: <1074109510.1220.15.camel@nettie> On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 12:48, Tim May wrote: > On Jan 13, 2004, at 8:41 AM, Steve Schear wrote: > > > At 11:23 PM 1/12/2004, Tim May wrote: > >> "But if I own a computer and I rent out accounts to others and the FBI > >> comes to me and says "We are putting a Carnivore computer in your > >> place," how else can this be interpreted _except_ as a violation of > >> the Third?" > >> > The pure form of the Third (in this abstract sense) is when government > knocks on one's door and says "Here is something you must put inside > your house." For this to make sense, we have to interpret Soldier to mean not just agents of the armed forces (military), it has to mean law-enforcement as well. I can accept the idea of abstracting the Third beyond humans to software/hardware agents, etc... but I'm not so sure about the military vs. law enforcement distinction. Can anyone point me to some founder's writings that may help support the interpretation of Soldier to mean any agent of the government? Even if we did extend the Third to mean law-enforcement... since Congress has repeatedly ceded their authority to determine when the country was "in a time of war" to the Executive, and as such we are now in a perpetual time of war, any quartering has to be prescribed by law, rather than prohibited outright. For these reasons, I have to agree with Tim's earlier referenced post, to the effect of "the only solutions now available are Technology and Terrorism." > By the way, there have been a bunch of cases where residents of a > neighborhood were ordered to leave so that SWAT teams could be in their > houses to monitor a nearby house where a hostage situation had > developed. (It is possible that in each house they occupied they > received uncoerced permission to occupy the houses, but I don't think > this was always the case; however, I can't cite a concrete case of > this. Maybe Lexis has one.) > > If this takeover of houses to launch a raid is not a "black letter law" > case of the government quartering troops in residences, nothing is. > Exigent circumstance, perhaps, but so was King George's need to quarter > his troops. I think someone in this case would have a much better argument for a Fourth amendment violation (unreasonable seizure of their home, albeit temporarily), though probably, today, still unsuccessful in a court. --bgt From dog3 at eruditium.org Wed Jan 14 12:15:13 2004 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:15:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <1074099386.1169.8.camel@nettie> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, bgt wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 00:20, bgt wrote: > > > On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 10:48, cubic-dog wrote: > > > > in force, because, we finally get slave, indentured servants who > > > > will either take the 90 cents and hour or be deported. > > > > > > This kind of rhetoric is extremely irritating. If they can > > > be deported, they are neither slaves or indentured servants. > > ... Anyway... "be productive or be deported" does not constitute I don't think I said that, you put it in quotes, implying I did. It's an okay paraphrase though, so we'll take it like that. More like I said, without regard to what you DEALT for, the is no impetus on the "man" to pay what was agreed to. If you don't like it, you will be deported. This does a nice job of creating a new, even lower class. It substantially lowers the bar for wage negotiation. The US Department of Labor has already published guides for business outlining how to avoid paying overtime. http://www.thetip.org/art_689_icle.html This new work of the Bush, just really helps cap the issue. The ditch diggers in question, were -as a group- being paid (I asked) $500 to put in that run of conduit. As there were six of them, and it took a couple of days, well, do the math. Much cheaper than renting a ditchwitch and operator. They had done this before, and would do it again. Some runs go better than others, and I'll be some days they might actually make as much as a 7/11 clerk. But not many. What happens when the "man" arbitrarily decides to stiff them from their payment? Will the labor department come to mitigate? Or will immigration come to deport? What's more likely under the proposed "guest worker" rule? > slavery, and neither does the fact that someone is willing to work > for substantially less than you. In fact, it is only Free people > who can sell their product (including their own labor) for whatever > they want (and, obviously, that someone will pay). Who can sell their labour for whatever they want? I am only aware of folks who can sell their labour for what the market will bear. As long as they only want the status quo, well, then that's fine. When the market will only bear 90p, Well, making the note on the townhouse is gonna be kinda tricky, ain't it? > --bgt From dog3 at eruditium.org Wed Jan 14 12:25:48 2004 From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:25:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Quartering soldiers In-Reply-To: <1074109510.1220.15.camel@nettie> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, bgt wrote: > On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 12:48, Tim May wrote: > > On Jan 13, 2004, at 8:41 AM, Steve Schear wrote: > > > > > At 11:23 PM 1/12/2004, Tim May wrote: > > >> "But if I own a computer and I rent out accounts to others and the FBI > > >> comes to me and says "We are putting a Carnivore computer in your > > >> place," how else can this be interpreted _except_ as a violation of > > >> the Third?" > > >> > > The pure form of the Third (in this abstract sense) is when government > > knocks on one's door and says "Here is something you must put inside > > your house." > > For this to make sense, we have to interpret Soldier to mean not > just agents of the armed forces (military), it has to mean > law-enforcement as well. Indeed. I've never heard of the third interpreted this way. Doesn't mean much, just never heard it. Anyone have a reference? From jwashburn at whittmanhart.com Wed Jan 14 13:59:35 2004 From: jwashburn at whittmanhart.com (John Washburn) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:59:35 -0600 Subject: Quartering soldiers Message-ID: <9A1CCCE54805534C80F5BD0FC19D1E6B1305A4@chi-exch02.ffhq.ffconsulting.net> I seem to recall a case where a land owner used the third amendment to refuse and block rent-free occupation of his land by the Border Patrol. His land was bounded on the south by the Mexican/US border. This case (mid-70's)already makes the generalization from military to agents of the state. I will try to find the citation. If found it will be posted. -----Original Message----- From: bgt [mailto:bgt at chrootlabs.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 1:45 PM To: cypherpunks at lne.com Subject: Quartering soldiers On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 12:48, Tim May wrote: > On Jan 13, 2004, at 8:41 AM, Steve Schear wrote: > > > At 11:23 PM 1/12/2004, Tim May wrote: > >> "But if I own a computer and I rent out accounts to others and the FBI > >> comes to me and says "We are putting a Carnivore computer in your > >> place," how else can this be interpreted _except_ as a violation of > >> the Third?" > >> > The pure form of the Third (in this abstract sense) is when government > knocks on one's door and says "Here is something you must put inside > your house." For this to make sense, we have to interpret Soldier to mean not just agents of the armed forces (military), it has to mean law-enforcement as well. I can accept the idea of abstracting the Third beyond humans to software/hardware agents, etc... but I'm not so sure about the military vs. law enforcement distinction. Can anyone point me to some founder's writings that may help support the interpretation of Soldier to mean any agent of the government? Even if we did extend the Third to mean law-enforcement... since Congress has repeatedly ceded their authority to determine when the country was "in a time of war" to the Executive, and as such we are now in a perpetual time of war, any quartering has to be prescribed by law, rather than prohibited outright. For these reasons, I have to agree with Tim's earlier referenced post, to the effect of "the only solutions now available are Technology and Terrorism." > By the way, there have been a bunch of cases where residents of a > neighborhood were ordered to leave so that SWAT teams could be in their > houses to monitor a nearby house where a hostage situation had > developed. (It is possible that in each house they occupied they > received uncoerced permission to occupy the houses, but I don't think > this was always the case; however, I can't cite a concrete case of > this. Maybe Lexis has one.) > > If this takeover of houses to launch a raid is not a "black letter law" > case of the government quartering troops in residences, nothing is. > Exigent circumstance, perhaps, but so was King George's need to quarter > his troops. I think someone in this case would have a much better argument for a Fourth amendment violation (unreasonable seizure of their home, albeit temporarily), though probably, today, still unsuccessful in a court. --bgt From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Wed Jan 14 13:30:17 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:30:17 -0500 Subject: P2P + Instant Messaging = WASTE Message-ID: Here's an article off the Lightreading website. Probably nothing new for this list, but it does bring together a number of interesting ideas. Are we seeing the birth of blacknet here? And now imagining adding telephony to Blacknet... -TD Two of the hottest applications in networking -- peer-to-peer networks and instant messaging -- are being combined in the form of private P2P networks that are taking shape in the more secretive corners of the Internet, industry insiders say. The most popular software for creating these private networks is WASTE, which enables anyone with a computer and a Net connection to set up a private peer-to-peer network over the Internet. Between the FBI and the Justice Department and the Record Industry of America Association cracking down on file sharing, it was only a matter of time before users found a more secure, private way to swap software and music, says Brian Bruns, security administrator at SOSDG (Summit Open Source Development Group). The SOSDG hosts one of about 30 different sites where the WASTE software can be downloaded for free. WASTE differs from P2P networks like Kazaa and Limewire as it creates a closed network for instant messaging and file-sharing with trusted users. The person running the network has to swap a key with potential users before they are allowed on the network. An encryption layer is then set up between two computers using private keys to authenticate the parties. Up to 50 people can be on one network. There are thousands of copies out there, but theres no way to tell exactly how many people are using it, as its designed to be secure, says Bruns. WASTE was developed a year ago by developer Justin Frankel, founder of Nullsoft. AOL (NYSE: TWX - message board) acquired Nullsoft for its Winamp MP3 software, and while Frankel was with the company he wrote WASTE. However it was deemed to be an unauthorized project, according to Bruns, and AOL yanked it. Michael Gartenberg, analyst with Jupiter Research Ltd., says anything believed to encourage illegal file sharing would have a major black mark against it, which is probably why AOL scrapped the project after posting it on a site for one day. He says the crackdown by the RIAA on illegal file sharing has fueled the distribution of this software. The more consequences there are for actions, the more the activity is driven underground Criminals dont hold public meetings, Gartenberg says. Its a way to chat without having someone watching you, says Bruns. His open source group took a copy of the entire WASTE site as it was posted on AOL, and stored it away for future use. It has since been distributed widely, including to SourceForge, which has worked on improving the original code. Gartenberg notes that WASTE is unlikely to reach the lofty heights of fame achieved by Kazaa, which has been downloaded over 200 million times. With WASTE you have to know someone in the network, it closes down the number of people available, he says. Still, the concept of private or personal P2P networks might still find its way into the mainstream, courtesy of Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq: MSFT - message board). The software giant is trialing a program called www.threedegrees.com (nothing to do with the 70s pop divas, it seems), which allows users to create small private networks of up to 10 people to exchange instant messages, animations, pictures and music. Right now the software is part of Microsofts NetGen division, which aims to develop products aimed at 13- to 24-year-olds, but there are broader implications for this product within the corporate world. Think of workgroups collaborating on documents or powerpoint presentations. Microsoft had not returned calls for comment by press time.  Jo Maitland, Senior Editor, Boardwatch _________________________________________________________________ High-speed usersbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 From billy at dadadada.net Wed Jan 14 14:15:34 2004 From: billy at dadadada.net (BillyGOTO) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:15:34 -0500 Subject: Quartering soldiers In-Reply-To: <9A1CCCE54805534C80F5BD0FC19D1E6B1305A4@chi-exch02.ffhq.ffc onsulting.net> References: <9A1CCCE54805534C80F5BD0FC19D1E6B1305A4@chi-exch02.ffhq.ffco nsulting.net> Message-ID: <20040114221534.GB16665@mail.dadadada.net> On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 03:59:35PM -0600, John Washburn wrote: > I seem to recall a case where a land owner used the third amendment to > refuse and block rent-free occupation of his land by the Border Patrol. > His land was bounded on the south by the Mexican/US border. > > This case (mid-70's)already makes the generalization from military to > agents of the state. > > I will try to find the citation. If found it will be posted. Reminds me of my favorite billboard ever! "Support Our Troops... At Home and Abroad" http://www.nycpba.org/tadam/03/tadam-030428-billboard.html | While the U.S. military is being asked to act more like police officers, | collaring bank robbers and otherwise keeping the peace in Baghdad and | other Iraqi locales, we police officers have to think and act more like | the military as we continue to fight the war against terrorism. The bond | between wearers of the uniform both military and police has never been | stronger. This is why we launched this outdoor display advertising | campaign. And remember, you can't spell Troops without OOPS! From timcmay at got.net Wed Jan 14 17:22:46 2004 From: timcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:22:46 -0800 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: <1074124315.1170.32.camel@nettie> References: <1074124315.1170.32.camel@nettie> Message-ID: <53186E8F-46F9-11D8-8654-000A956B4C74@got.net> On Jan 14, 2004, at 3:51 PM, bgt wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 14:15, cubic-dog wrote: >> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, bgt wrote: >>> ... Anyway... "be productive or be deported" does not constitute >> >> I don't think I said that, you put it in quotes, implying I did. >> It's an okay paraphrase though, so we'll take it like that. > > Yes, it was intended as a paraphrase. > >> More like I said, without regard to what you DEALT for, the is >> no impetus on the "man" to pay what was agreed to. If you don't >> like it, you will be deported. This does a nice job of creating > > For currently illegal immigrants, you're right: the contract (the > agreement to do x work for y money is a contract, however > informal) is illegal and so unenforceable. This leaves these > workers open to theft by "stiffing" as you put it. Most workers are paid bimonthly, and many are paid weekly. Some day laborers are even paid daily. This makes the "float" a maximum of a couple of weeks, and more likely a week or less. Any laborer who has not been paid can walk away and be out the week or less in pay. (Personally, I would not want to be an employer who stiffed a Mexican...one might find one's tires slashed or one's daughter's throat slashed ear to ear...or just a bullet in the dark. This kind of "stiffing" such as you two are debating almost never happens, for various good reasons. > > The guest worker program will legalize these immigrants (for a > period of time), so the contract will be legal and become > enforceable. Why do you think the guest worker program will > make it worse in this regard for currently illegal immigrants? > This is the weakest objection to this program I've heard yet. The wholesale opening of the door to those who "cut in line" (ahead of those from England, Denmark, Romania, India, etc. who waited patiently in line by submitting their immigration requests) is deplorable. Either open the borders or not, but surely don't reward those who cut in line. Oh, and the march of 2.5 million Mexicans and Latins from the south is already underway...they got the message the last time when the Simpson-Mazzoli "one time amnesty, just this one time!" happened, and millions more arrived. Now that the new Mexican immigration is happening, several million more will arrive. By the way, there is no acceptable hospital in the region near me because "legal but won't pay their bills" Mexicans have utterly swamped the W*ts*nv*ll* Community Hospital. It is unable to collect from those who show up at its emergency room (and must be treated, by law) that it is now running short on so many things that it is not safe to use. (They'll probably threaten to sue me, so I'll disguise the above name.) I'd favor letting all in who want to get in, provided nobody demands that I pay for any services for them. Any services, not just "few" services. There are a couple of billion in the world who would gladly come to America if the borders were open...I'm not exaggerating at all. Between 1 and 2 billion, at least. Let them come. But let them starve when 950 million of them find no work and a limit to charity by the do-gooder minority. Let piles of their corpses fertilize our crops...it's why God made bulldozers. > --Tim May "Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" --Unknown Usenet Poster From bgt at chrootlabs.org Wed Jan 14 15:51:55 2004 From: bgt at chrootlabs.org (bgt) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:51:55 -0600 Subject: Quantum Loop Gravity Be For Whitey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1074124315.1170.32.camel@nettie> On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 14:15, cubic-dog wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, bgt wrote: > > ... Anyway... "be productive or be deported" does not constitute > > I don't think I said that, you put it in quotes, implying I did. > It's an okay paraphrase though, so we'll take it like that. Yes, it was intended as a paraphrase. > More like I said, without regard to what you DEALT for, the is > no impetus on the "man" to pay what was agreed to. If you don't > like it, you will be deported. This does a nice job of creating For currently illegal immigrants, you're right: the contract (the agreement to do x work for y money is a contract, however informal) is illegal and so unenforceable. This leaves these workers open to theft by "stiffing" as you put it. The guest worker program will legalize these immigrants (for a period of time), so the contract will be legal and become enforceable. Why do you think the guest worker program will make it worse in this regard for currently illegal immigrants? This is the weakest objection to this program I've heard yet. > The ditch diggers in question, were -as a group- being paid > (I asked) $500 to put in that run of conduit. As there > were six of them, and it took a couple of days, well, do the > math. > > Much cheaper than renting a ditchwitch and operator. > > They had done this before, and would do it again. Some runs go > better than others, and I'll be some days they might actually > make as much as a 7/11 clerk. But not many. If both parties agreed and adhered to these terms, I see no problem with any of that. Employers and employees should be free to negotiate their own terms without the coercive interference by the State (via minimum wage, overtime, maximum work week, etc regulations). > What happens when the "man" arbitrarily decides to stiff them > from their payment? > > Will the labor department come to mitigate? Or will immigration > come to deport? > > What's more likely under the proposed "guest worker" rule? See above for my answers to this. > > for substantially less than you. In fact, it is only Free people > > who can sell their product (including their own labor) for whatever > > they want (and, obviously, that someone will pay). > > Who can sell their labour for whatever they want? > I am only aware of folks who can sell their labour for what > the market will bear. Oh please, did you not read the last 6 words of my sentence? "(and, obviously, that someone will pay)" means "what the market will bear". Of *course* there has to be a willing buyer to complete the transaction. --bgt From ericm at lne.com Thu Jan 15 08:03:24 2004 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:03:24 -0800 Subject: LNE CDR shutting down now Message-ID: <20040115080324.C10930@slack.lne.com> The LNE node of the cypherpunks list will be shut down after this message. If you want to stay on cypherpunks you'll need to subscribe to another node. http://www.lne.com/cpunk/ has a list of CDRs. Eric From jwashburn at whittmanhart.com Thu Jan 15 07:35:39 2004 From: jwashburn at whittmanhart.com (John Washburn) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:35:39 -0600 Subject: Quartering soldiers Message-ID: <9A1CCCE54805534C80F5BD0FC19D1E6B1305A5@chi-exch02.ffhq.ffconsulting.net> I was incorrect. No case has come before the US supreme court on Quartering. The case I was remembering was New Mexican case where the quartering issues were never addressed as part of the dismissal. So, the point was raised but the state court decline to consider the argument. The only federal case is district 2's Engblom v Carey. That case hinged on whether Engblom (as a resident of a dorm-like room within the prison) had sufficient control of the premise to be an "Owner". The ruling was maybe Engblom was an Owner maybe he was not. The case was remanded back to the district court so a trial court could decide the material fact of whether Engblom was or was not an Owner. The only state where quartering any agent of the state is expressly forbidden is Louisiana. The state constitution states: "No person shall be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner or lawful occupant." This would include all agents of the state (federal, state or local) as well as any other person quartered by government fiat. (such as any FEMA refuges quartered at the local private school gymnasium) It applies to fee simple owners and tenants. It covers both peace time and war. The only restriction would be the question: "Is a place of business a "House" for the purposes of the law?" Fourth amendment cases (secure in papers, person and house) would seem to provide the framework that a "House" is more than a residence for constitutional interpretation. So I think this means that a person desiring to provide a carnivore-free ISP should locate the server in Louisiana in a literal house you own or rent. But, even then you get to be the guy/gal who gets to litigate the first case. See the compressive article on quartering at: http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/3rd.html -----Original Message----- From: bgt [mailto:bgt at chrootlabs.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 1:45 PM To: cypherpunks at lne.com Subject: Quartering soldiers On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 12:48, Tim May wrote: > On Jan 13, 2004, at 8:41 AM, Steve Schear wrote: > > > At 11:23 PM 1/12/2004, Tim May wrote: > >> "But if I own a computer and I rent out accounts to others and the FBI > >> comes to me and says "We are putting a Carnivore computer in your > >> place," how else can this be interpreted _except_ as a violation of > >> the Third?" > >> > The pure form of the Third (in this abstract sense) is when government > knocks on one's door and says "Here is something you must put inside > your house." For this to make sense, we have to interpret Soldier to mean not just agents of the armed forces (military), it has to mean law-enforcement as well. I can accept the idea of abstracting the Third beyond humans to software/hardware agents, etc... but I'm not so sure about the military vs. law enforcement distinction. Can anyone point me to some founder's writings that may help support the interpretation of Soldier to mean any agent of the government? Even if we did extend the Third to mean law-enforcement... since Congress has repeatedly ceded their authority to determine when the country was "in a time of war" to the Executive, and as such we are now in a perpetual time of war, any quartering has to be prescribed by law, rather than prohibited outright. For these reasons, I have to agree with Tim's earlier referenced post, to the effect of "the only solutions now available are Technology and Terrorism." > By the way, there have been a bunch of cases where residents of a > neighborhood were ordered to leave so that SWAT teams could be in their > houses to monitor a nearby house where a hostage situation had > developed. (It is possible that in each house they occupied they > received uncoerced permission to occupy the houses, but I don't think > this was always the case; however, I can't cite a concrete case of > this. Maybe Lexis has one.) > > If this takeover of houses to launch a raid is not a "black letter law" > case of the government quartering troops in residences, nothing is. > Exigent circumstance, perhaps, but so was King George's need to quarter > his troops. I think someone in this case would have a much better argument for a Fourth amendment violation (unreasonable seizure of their home, albeit temporarily), though probably, today, still unsuccessful in a court. --bgt From bdwaterproofsystemssro at waterproofsystems.com Sun Jan 18 02:55:14 2004 From: bdwaterproofsystemssro at waterproofsystems.com (Reyna Reese) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 05:35:14 -0480 Subject: This blend will help you get thin/ner Message-ID: <045591503.77206313758920@thebat.net> How many times did you get unhappy after noticing the clothes you buy keep getting larger? 0be~sity does not only affect the way you look and feel about yourself. It is also dangerous for your health, bringing plenty of health problems in a variety of spheres. And of course feeling shy to take off your clothes on a beach or in bed with your special one is so saddening. You don't have to spend the rest of your life exercising yourself to death. You also don't have to experiment with suspicious po-und-fighting products. The only option you need is An`atrim! Its completely naturaI blend of ingredients attacks o/besity like nothing else and suppresses your appetite, putting your mind in control of your e-ating. It also easily integrates into existing di*ets and has no side effects - millions of people are in full control of their we*ight now! Getting rid of extra po*unds now is safe and enjoyable. Ana`trim boosts not only your confidence but helps your body produce tons of natural energy! Check out the testimonials of happy customers, at our site: http://asertop.com/d/ Re-move your e`mail: http://asertop.com/d/u.php From ben at algroup.co.uk Mon Jan 19 02:47:44 2004 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:47:44 +0000 Subject: Announcement: New mailing list for UK crypto Message-ID: <400BB5D0.9040901@algroup.co.uk> By popular demand, I've created a moderated alternative to the UKCrypto mailing list. See https://mailman.aldigital.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/ukcisnac for the charter and subscription information. This is intended to be complementary to the cryptography (because its about the UK) and ukcrypto (because its moderated) mailing lists, rather than competitive with them. And no, I'm not interested in discussing why we haven't burnt our money buying a cert from your favourite money sink. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at metzdowd.com From rsw at jfet.org Thu Jan 22 14:08:38 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:08:38 -0500 Subject: test 1 Message-ID: <20040122170838.A24422@positron.mit.edu> 1 -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From rsw at jfet.org Thu Jan 22 14:13:36 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:13:36 -0500 Subject: test 2 Message-ID: <20040122171336.A24533@positron.mit.edu> test 2 -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From rsw at jfet.org Thu Jan 22 15:55:37 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:55:37 -0500 Subject: Announcing a new cypherpunks node: al-qaeda.net Message-ID: <20040122185537.A25773@positron.mit.edu> Hello, I recently posted saying I'd be starting a new cypherpunks node; it's now (close to) fully operational. Since LNE's policies were very popular and yielded an extremely high SNR, I've decided to replicate them more or less exactly. Thus: - everything is passed on to other nodes - posting is only allowed from addresses subscribed to one of the CDRs, or from almost all of the well-known anonymous remailers. PGP messages, messages with Hashcash, and things that look like replies to current threads are also allowed. I've also gone back through the LNE archives and pulled out addresses of "known good" users from 2002-2003. - you can email me to request that I manually add an address to the allowed posters list - "CDR" is removed from the subject line - "reply-to" header is removed - MIME attachments are removed To subscribe, send "subscribe" to cypherpunks-request at al-qaeda.net. The list entry point is cypherpunks at al-qaeda.net. Current list operators, please add cypherpunks at al-qaeda.net to your backbone feed. In addition, if you could set up a cron job to send your user list to me, that would be great; please send the output of the Majordomo "who" command to cpunk-users at al-qaeda.net (or, alternatively, if you allow public access to the who command, let me know and I'll set it up on my end). Finally, please email me if you'd like me to send my user list to you. I think this takes care of everything, but if I've left anything out please let me know. -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 23 09:27:29 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret)) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:27:29 -0800 Subject: 1st amend, compelled speech in US Message-ID: <40115981.B13A01EC@cdc.gov> At 08:29 PM 1/22/04 +0000, petard wrote: >On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 09:47:07AM -0800, Major Variola (ret.) wrote: >> ...public health officials are considering legal action to force AOL and >> certain websites to warn members about... >> >> http://wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,62005,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2 >> >> Compelled speech is prohibited, suggesting it is treason, no matter the >> reason. >> >So is it prohibited that drug companies are compelled to disclose known >side effects of their medications in order to sell them, and treason on >the part of FDA employees who enforce that? [ The Ministry of Mental Health would like to caution you that the accompanying text may contain unsoc ideas that may lead to discontent and other psychomedical conditions requiring treatment from licensed MiniHealth technicians. Have a nice day.] Excellent question. It is conceivable that a state can legitimately define some terms of commerce so as to prevent *fraud*. (Congress may do so for interstate trade.) Eg, plant and chemical names, weights and measures, etc. If some physical object has proved side nonobvious effects, its conceivable that the state can compel that speech. Note that these are physical objects, not bits, and its to prevent fraud in commerce that enables state action. [ The Ministry of Mental Health would like to caution you that the accompanying text may contain unsoc ideas that may lead to discontent and other psychomedical conditions requiring treatment from licensed MiniHealth technicians. Have a nice day.] When the state wants to insert speech into other's *conversations*, someone needs to read the BoR. [ The Ministry of Mental Health would like to caution you that the accompanying text may contain unsoc ideas that may lead to discontent and other psychomedical conditions requiring treatment from licensed MiniHealth technicians. Have a nice day.] And note: In a free nation, folks would be able to decide who endorses products, including foods and drugs. If the kosher council required some kind of warning ("Do not smoke this product with diary products") then you would have to follow their rules if you wanted to use their logo. Any federal rating or private Consumer Reports organization would simply be a competitor in the field of reputations. [ The Ministry of Mental Health would like to caution you that the accompanying text may contain unsoc ideas that may lead to discontent and other psychomedical conditions requiring treatment from licensed MiniHealth technicians. Have a nice day.] From mv at cdc.gov Fri Jan 23 10:01:49 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret.)) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:01:49 -0800 Subject: plausible deniability, watermarking / stego busts Message-ID: <4011618C.344280CB@cdc.gov> FBI makes arrest in movie 'screener' case Chicago man to be charged with copyright infringementThe Associated Press Updated: 9:02 a.m. ET Jan. 23, 2004LOS ANGELES - A man who allegedly used the Internet to distribute Oscar screener movies sent to him by a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has been arrested in Illinois, authorities said. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4037016/ Agents said the films have been traced back to a longtime Academy member, 69-year-old actor Carmine Caridi, who was described as a friend of Spragues. In addition to the movies, agents said they found an array of duplicating and illegal satellite television interception equipment in Spragues home about 20 miles south of downtown Chicago. Caridi told investigators he sent VHS copies of about 60 movies he received each year to Sprague. He allegedly told investigators he received no money for the films, and believed Sprague was merely a film buff who wished to watch them. From jdocwra at earthlink.net Fri Jan 23 15:02:20 2004 From: jdocwra at earthlink.net (John Docwra) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:02:20 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID:

unsubscribe

From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Jan 24 01:41:09 2004 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: test message - ignored successfully. In-Reply-To: <20040124042154.A25987@positron.mit.edu> References: <20040124042154.A25987@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2691.216.240.32.1.1074937269.squirrel@smirk.idiom.com> Yup. Didn't see nothing here. Those weren't the test messages I was looking for. They can move along. From rsw at jfet.org Sat Jan 24 01:21:54 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 04:21:54 -0500 Subject: test message Message-ID: <20040124042154.A25987@positron.mit.edu> test message --- please ignore -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From osama at al-qaeda.net Sat Jan 24 01:25:52 2004 From: osama at al-qaeda.net (ObL) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 04:25:52 -0500 Subject: test, please ignore Message-ID: <20040124042552.A26078@positron.mit.edu> Test, please ignore. -ObL From osama at al-qaeda.net Sat Jan 24 01:30:17 2004 From: osama at al-qaeda.net (ObL) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 04:30:17 -0500 Subject: final test message Message-ID: <20040124043017.A26177@positron.mit.edu> final test -ObL From measl at mfn.org Sat Jan 24 13:19:22 2004 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:19:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: System security data about to be made public (Cobell v Norton) (fwd) Message-ID: <20040124151858.C72096@mx1.mfn.org> Of interest to may I'm sure. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:34:57 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine To: nanog at merit.edu Cc: brunner at nic-naa.net, triballaw at wabanaki.abenaki.net Subject: System security data about to be made public (Cobell v Norton) The background is probably not of interest to many on NANOG, but the operational art of the Department of the Interior's network operators and security staff, and the host managers of the Indian Trust systems, which has been rated the worst in the Federal Goverment, is about to enter the public record, minus host and subnet identifiers, and any bits that "might jeopardize the security of individual Indian Trust Data". The text of the order is at this URL: http://www.indiantrust.com/_pdfs/20040121FileSMITReportsinRecord.pdf In a nutshell, its an Iraq-sized pile of thousands of individual trust accounts -- a major regional bank -- with no known audit trail, and an open access policy until quite recently. If I get the doc-u-boxen, I'll be happy to share with other NANOGers, as the DOI appears unable to move its operational art from an "F" to a "D" without assistance. Eric P.S. Triballaw list cc'd. From s.schear at comcast.net Sun Jan 25 17:52:04 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:52:04 -0800 Subject: Avoiding US mail fraud charges while protecting your financial privacy Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040125174812.053844f0@mail.comcast.net> [From another list..] A charge of "mail fraud" or "securities fraud" doesn't mean jack shit anymore. If you exchange money or other financial instruments a prosecutor can nail you for something. Real fraud does occur, but prosecutors prefer to go after targets they want to cut down to size, such as Michael Milken or Martha Stewart. They base their cases on obscure subjective laws that violate private property rights and are designed to ensnare everyone. Using the US postal system can be damaging to your freedom. I was thinking of re-selling pre-paid domestic, private carrier, envelopes as this circumvents the USPS and the associated discretionary federal charges (e.g., mail fraud). Do any on the list think there would be interest? Will not maintain any postal info after ack of receipt. Haven't thought about price but it won't be a gouging. steve From s.schear at comcast.net Sun Jan 25 20:04:37 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 20:04:37 -0800 Subject: Encrypted phones/scramblers, etc. In-Reply-To: <20040126031533.GA10436@cybershamanix.com> References: <20040126031533.GA10436@cybershamanix.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040125195816.053b9bb0@mail.comcast.net> At 07:15 PM 1/25/2004, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Someone was just trying to tell me that the FCC, et al, won't allow > encrypted >phones or even the old style scramblers to be sold anymore. Have there >been any >moves in that direction? I worked for Cylink, where we sold industrial strength crypto phones. I continue to follow this area and know of no such restrictions. steve From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Jan 25 19:15:33 2004 From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:15:33 -0600 Subject: Encrypted phones/scramblers, etc. Message-ID: <20040126031533.GA10436@cybershamanix.com> Someone was just trying to tell me that the FCC, et al, won't allow encrypted phones or even the old style scramblers to be sold anymore. Have there been any moves in that direction? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Jan 26 07:09:31 2004 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:09:31 -0500 Subject: Howard Dean wants national IDs, internet drivers licenses. Message-ID: I realize that there isn't a major party presidential candidate alive who gets approval from most of the people on this list, but it's worthwhile to note which ones are proposing explicitly poor internet and privacy policy. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 8:18 AM To: politech at politechbot.com Subject: [Politech] Weekly column: Howard Dean's worrisome views on privacy [priv] http://news.com.com/2010-1028-5146863.html Dean should come clean on privacy January 26, 2004, 4:00 AM PT By Declan McCullagh After Howard Dean's unexpected defeat last week in Iowa, public attention has focused on his temper, his character, and that guttural Tyrannosaurus bellow of his not-quite-a-concession speech. But Dean's views on Americans' privacy rights may be a superior test of his fitness to be president. Dean's current stand on privacy appears to leave little wiggle room: His campaign platform pledges unwavering support for "the constitutional principles of equality, liberty and privacy." Fifteen months before Dean said he would seek the presidency, however, the former Vermont governor spoke at a conference in Pittsburgh co-sponsored by smart-card firm Wave Systems where he called for state drivers' licenses to be transformed into a kind of standardized national ID card for Americans. Embedding smart cards into uniform IDs was necessary to thwart "cyberterrorism" and identity theft, Dean claimed. "We must move to smarter license cards that carry secure digital information that can be universally read at vital checkpoints," Dean said in March 2002, according to a copy of his prepared remarks. "Issuing such a card would have little effect on the privacy of Americans." Dean also suggested that computer makers such as Apple Computer, Dell, Gateway and Sony should be required to include an ID card reader in PCs--and Americans would have to insert their uniform IDs into the reader before they could log on. "One state's smart-card driver's license must be identifiable by another state's card reader," Dean said. "It must also be easily commercialized by the private sector and included in all PCs over time--making the Internet safer and more secure." The presidential hopeful offered few details about his radical proposal. "On the Internet, this card will confirm all the information required to gain access to a state (government) network--while also barring anyone who isn't legal age from entering an adult chat room, making the Internet safer for our children, or prevent adults from entering a children's chat room and preying on our kids...Many new computer systems are being created with card reader technology. Older computers can add this feature for very little money," Dean said. There's probably a good reason why Dean spoke so vaguely: It's unclear how such a system would work in practice. Must Internet cafes include uniform ID card readers on public computers? Would existing computers have to be retrofitted? Would tourists be prohibited from bringing laptops unless they sported uniform ID readers? What about Unix shell accounts? How did a politician who is said to be Internet-savvy concoct this scheme? [...remainder snipped...] _______________________________________________ Politech mailing list Archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Moderated by Declan McCullagh (http://www.mccullagh.org/) From mv at cdc.gov Mon Jan 26 14:14:54 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret.)) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:14:54 -0800 Subject: Freedom to speak: Patriot act unconstitutional Message-ID: <4015915D.A8DD29B@cdc.gov> Jan 26, 4:26 PM EST Part of Patriot Act Ruled Unconstitutional By LINDA DEUTSCH AP Special Correspondent LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A federal judge has declared unconstitutional a portion of the USA Patriot Act that bars giving expert advice or assistance to groups designated foreign terrorist organizations. The ruling marks the first court decision to declare a part of the post-Sept. 11 anti-terrorism statute unconstitutional, said David Cole, a Georgetown University law professor who argued the case on behalf of the Humanitarian Law Project. In a ruling handed down late Friday and made available Monday, U.S. District Judge Audrey Collins said the ban on providing "expert advice or assistance" is impermissibly vague, in violation of the First and Fifth Amendments. John Tyler, the Justice Department attorney who argued the case, had no comment and referred calls to the department press office in Washington. A message left there was not immediately returned. The case before the court involved five groups and two U.S. citizens seeking to provide support for lawful, nonviolent activities on behalf of Kurdish refugees in Turkey. The Humanitarian Law Project, which brought the lawsuit, said the plaintiffs were threatened with 15 years in prison if they advised groups on seeking a peaceful resolution of the Kurds' campaign for self-determination in Turkey. The judge's ruling said the law, as written, does not differentiate between impermissible advice on violence and encouraging the use of peaceful, nonviolent means to achieve goals. "The USA Patriot Act places no limitation on the type of expert advice and assistance which is prohibited and instead bans the provision of all expert advice and assistance regardless of its nature," the judge said. Cole declared the ruling "a victory for everyone who believes the war on terrorism ought to be fought consistent with constitutional principles." ----- Of course there are limits in regards to freedom of speech. They are as follows: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Everything else is, of course, allowed. -Sunder ----- Hang Ashcroft. From s.schear at comcast.net Mon Jan 26 16:44:14 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:44:14 -0800 Subject: Avoiding US mail fraud charges while protecting your financial privacy In-Reply-To: <004301c3e445$655c9af0$1302a8c0@warehouse> References: <6.0.1.1.0.20040125174812.053844f0@mail.comcast.net> <004301c3e445$655c9af0$1302a8c0@warehouse> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040126164215.0537f440@mail.comcast.net> At 11:47 AM 1/26/2004, Pete Capelli wrote: I thought the USPS creation act forbid any competition in this area? Using the US postal system can be damaging to your freedom. I was thinking of re-selling pre-paid domestic, private carrier, envelopes as this circumvents the USPS and the associated discretionary federal charges (e.g., mail fraud). Do any on the list think there would be interest? Will not maintain any postal info after ack of receipt. Haven't thought about price but it won't be a gouging. I'm sure it does, but since few if any lightweight courier envelopes are opened for such inspection who is to know? steve From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Mon Jan 26 18:14:07 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:14:07 -0500 Subject: Power, Propaganda and Conscience in The War On Terror Message-ID: http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=4889§ionID=40 A view from the left Excerpts.... "During the height of the cold war, a group of Soviet journalists were taken on an official tour of the United States. They watched TV; they read the newspapers; they listened to debates in Congress. To their astonishment, everything they heard was more or less the same. The news was the same. The opinions were the same, more or less. "How do you do it?" they asked their hosts. "In our country, to achieve this, we throw people in prison; we tear out their fingernails. Here, theres none of that? Whats your secret?" . . . ""Liberal realism" - in America, Britain, Australia - meant taking the humanity out of the study of nations and viewing the world in terms of its usefulness to western power. This was presented in a self-serving jargon: a masonic-like language in thrall to the dominant power. Typical of the jargon were labels." . . . "The difference is that in totalitarian societies, people take for granted that their governments lie to them: that their journalists are mere functionaries, that their academics are quiet and complicit. So people in these countries adjust accordingly. They learn to read between the lines. They rely on a flourishing underground. Their writers and playwrights write coded works, as in Poland and Czechoslovakia during the cold war. A Czech friend, a novelist, told me; "You in the West are disadvantaged. You have your myths about freedom of information, but you have yet to acquire the skill of deciphering: of reading between the lines. One day, you will need it." . . . "In the days before September 11, 2001, when America routinely attacked and terrorised weak states, and the victims were black and brown-skinned people in faraway places like Zaire and Guatemala, there were no headlines saying terrorism. But when the weak attacked the powerful, spectacularly on September 11, suddenly, there was terrorism. This is not to say that the threat from al-Qaida is not real - It is very real now, thanks to American and British actions in Iraq, and the almost infantile support given by the Howard government. But the most pervasive, clear and present danger is that of which we are told nothing. It is the danger posed by "our" governments - a danger suppressed by propaganda that casts "the West" as always benign: capable of misjudgment and blunder, yes, but never of high crime. The judgement at Nuremberg takes another view. This is what the judgement says; and remember, these words are the basis for almost 60 years of international law: "To initiate a war of aggression, it is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." In other words, there is no difference, in the principle of the law, between the action of the German regime in the late 1930s and the Americans in 2003. Fuelled by religious fanaticism, a corrupt Americanism and corporate greed, the Bush cabal is pursuing what the military historian Anatol Lieven calls "the classic modern strategy of an endangered right-wing oligarchy, which is to divert discontent into nationalism". Bushs America, he warns, "has become a menace to itself and to mankind." From mv at cdc.gov Tue Jan 27 10:41:48 2004 From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret.)) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:41:48 -0800 Subject: Freedom to speak: Patriot act unconstitutional Message-ID: <4016B0EC.9E500D2@cdc.gov> Jan 26, 4:26 PM EST Part of Patriot Act Ruled Unconstitutional By LINDA DEUTSCH AP Special Correspondent LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A federal judge has declared unconstitutional a portion of the USA Patriot Act that bars giving expert advice or assistance to groups designated foreign terrorist organizations. The ruling marks the first court decision to declare a part of the post-Sept. 11 anti-terrorism statute unconstitutional, said David Cole, a Georgetown University law professor who argued the case on behalf of the Humanitarian Law Project. In a ruling handed down late Friday and made available Monday, U.S. District Judge Audrey Collins said the ban on providing "expert advice or assistance" is impermissibly vague, in violation of the First and Fifth Amendments. John Tyler, the Justice Department attorney who argued the case, had no comment and referred calls to the department press office in Washington. A message left there was not immediately returned. The case before the court involved five groups and two U.S. citizens seeking to provide support for lawful, nonviolent activities on behalf of Kurdish refugees in Turkey. The Humanitarian Law Project, which brought the lawsuit, said the plaintiffs were threatened with 15 years in prison if they advised groups on seeking a peaceful resolution of the Kurds' campaign for self-determination in Turkey. The judge's ruling said the law, as written, does not differentiate between impermissible advice on violence and encouraging the use of peaceful, nonviolent means to achieve goals. "The USA Patriot Act places no limitation on the type of expert advice and assistance which is prohibited and instead bans the provision of all expert advice and assistance regardless of its nature," the judge said. Cole declared the ruling "a victory for everyone who believes the war on terrorism ought to be fought consistent with constitutional principles." ----- Of course there are limits in regards to freedom of speech. They are as follows: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Everything else is, of course, allowed. -Sunder ----- Hang Ashcroft. From s.schear at comcast.net Tue Jan 27 12:20:35 2004 From: s.schear at comcast.net (Steve Schear) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:20:35 -0800 Subject: Scary Psychological Test Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040127122005.057b8168@mail.comcast.net> Scary Psychological Test Read this question, come up with an answer, and then scroll down to the bottom for the result. This is not a trick question. It is as it reads. No one I know has gotten it right - including me. A woman, while at the funeral of her own mother, met this guy whom she did not know. She thought this guy was amazing, She believed him to be her dream and she fell in love with him right there but did not ask for his number and no matter how hard she tried shecould not find him. A few days later she killed her sister. Question: What is her motive in killing her sister? Give this some thought before you answer. (Scroll Down) Answer: She was hoping that the guy would appear at the funeral again. If you answered this correctly, you think like a psychopath. This was a test by a famous American Psychologist used to test if one has the same mentality as a killer. Many arrested serial killers took part in the test and answered the question correctly. If you didn't answer the question correctly - good for you. If you got the answer correct, please let me know so I can take you off of my email list unless that will tick you off, then I'll just be extra nice to you from now on. From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Tue Jan 27 12:12:00 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:12:00 -0500 Subject: Power, Propaganda and Conscience in The War On Terror Message-ID: As a big, sloppy footnote to this, I'd point out that (these days) anything that does not jibe with the current right-wing party line is now called "Left", even though there's really not much that is particularly left economically (or politically for that matter) in what's said in quotes such as below. It seems odd to me that such a wide variety of political views are all called "left" simply they don't proclaim the US as savior-to-the-world. Of course, there are those with fairly leftist views in these ranks, but that's not all that relevant. The interesting thing however is that American liberalism is now seen as right-wing (in the pro-US policy sense) by international "leftists" (meaning international dissidents), indicating it's complete and total moral failure. -TD >From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net >To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM >Subject: Power, Propaganda and Conscience in The War On Terror >Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:14:07 -0500 > > >http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=4889§ionID=40 > >A view from the left > >Excerpts.... > >"During the height of the cold war, a group of Soviet journalists were >taken on an official tour of the United States. They watched TV; they read >the newspapers; they listened to debates in Congress. To their >astonishment, everything they heard was more or less the same. The news was >the same. The opinions were the same, more or less. "How do you do it?" >they asked their hosts. "In our country, to achieve this, we throw people >in prison; we tear out their fingernails. Here, theres none of that? >Whats your secret?" >. >. >. >""Liberal realism" - in America, Britain, Australia - meant taking the >humanity out of the study of nations and viewing the world in terms of its >usefulness to western power. This was presented in a self-serving jargon: a >masonic-like language in thrall to the dominant power. Typical of the >jargon were labels." >. >. >. >"The difference is that in totalitarian societies, people take for granted >that their governments lie to them: that their journalists are mere >functionaries, that their academics are quiet and complicit. So people in >these countries adjust accordingly. They learn to read between the lines. >They rely on a flourishing underground. Their writers and playwrights write >coded works, as in Poland and Czechoslovakia during the cold war. > >A Czech friend, a novelist, told me; "You in the West are disadvantaged. >You have your myths about freedom of information, but you have yet to >acquire the skill of deciphering: of reading between the lines. One day, >you will need it." >. >. >. >"In the days before September 11, 2001, when America routinely attacked and >terrorised weak states, and the victims were black and brown-skinned people >in faraway places like Zaire and Guatemala, there were no headlines saying >terrorism. But when the weak attacked the powerful, spectacularly on >September 11, suddenly, there was terrorism. > >This is not to say that the threat from al-Qaida is not real - It is very >real now, thanks to American and British actions in Iraq, and the almost >infantile support given by the Howard government. But the most pervasive, >clear and present danger is that of which we are told nothing. > >It is the danger posed by "our" governments - a danger suppressed by >propaganda that casts "the West" as always benign: capable of misjudgment >and blunder, yes, but never of high crime. The judgement at Nuremberg takes >another view. This is what the judgement says; and remember, these words >are the basis for almost 60 years of international law: "To initiate a war >of aggression, it is not only an international crime; it is the supreme >international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it >contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." > >In other words, there is no difference, in the principle of the law, >between the action of the German regime in the late 1930s and the Americans >in 2003. Fuelled by religious fanaticism, a corrupt Americanism and >corporate greed, the Bush cabal is pursuing what the military historian >Anatol Lieven calls "the classic modern strategy of an endangered >right-wing oligarchy, which is to divert discontent into nationalism". >Bushs America, he warns, "has become a menace to itself and to mankind." > _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up  fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 From ericm at lne.com Tue Jan 27 15:58:08 2004 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:58:08 -0800 Subject: Howard Dean wants national IDs, internet drivers licenses. In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 10:09:31AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20040127155808.A31421@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 10:09:31AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > > I realize that there isn't a major party presidential > candidate alive who gets approval from most of the people > on this list, but it's worthwhile to note which ones are > proposing explicitly poor internet and privacy policy. Deans campaign licenses Wave technology. The speech he gave below was at a Wave-sponsored conference. Dean's campaign manager is a former Wavoid. Be scared. He's either completely clueless, knows but doesn't care, or owned. From Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net Tue Jan 27 17:22:40 2004 From: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net (Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:22:40 -0500 Subject: Power, Propaganda and Conscience in The War On Terror Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: "Tyler Durden" To: Nostradumbass at SAFe-mail.net, cypherpunks at minder.net Subject: RE: Power, Propaganda and Conscience in The War On Terror Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:12:00 -0500 > As a big, sloppy footnote to this, I'd point out that (these days) anything > that does not jibe with the current right-wing party line is now called > "Left", even though there's really not much that is particularly left > economically (or politically for that matter) in what's said in quotes such > as below. It seems odd to me that such a wide variety of political views are > all called "left" simply they don't proclaim the US as savior-to-the-world. Point taken. One reason Iraq has not inflamed most adult and the media is, unlike Vietnam, their kids are not going. Our volunteer army means little politcal consequence to a constant stream of bodybags (no longer ever shown on TV) and walking wounded returning home. The soaring deficit hasn't yet had consequences affecting the average Joe so why care? > > Of course, there are those with fairly leftist views in these ranks, but > that's not all that relevant. The interesting thing however is that American > liberalism is now seen as right-wing (in the pro-US policy sense) by > international "leftists" (meaning international dissidents), indicating it's > complete and total moral failure. There is no credible "left' in the U.S., just as there are credible libertarians. The young are so focused on materialsim that they won't hear the door swing shut on the last of their constitutional liberties while searching for the TV remote to select the newest "reality" show. ND From rah at shipwright.com Wed Jan 28 08:15:00 2004 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:15:00 -0500 Subject: Networking Nation-States Message-ID: Wherein Crypto-Anarchy makes an article in the National Interest... Cheers, RAH ? The National Interest | | Publications::Articles Wednesday, January 28, 2004 | Bookmark This Site | Sign In | Home Issue Date: Winter 2003/04, Posted On: 12/12/2003 Networking Nation-States James C. Bennett The early 20th century was filled with predictions that the airplane, the automobile or the assembly line had made parliamentary democracy, market economies, jury trials and bills of rights irrelevant, obsolete and harmful. Today's scientific-technological revolutions (epitomized by space shuttles and the Internet) make the technologies of the early 20th century-its fabric-winged biplanes, Tin Lizzies and "Modern Times" gearwheel factories-look like quaint relics. Yet all of the "obsolete" institutions derided by the modernists of that day thrive and strengthen. The true surprise of the scientific revolutions ahead is likely to be not the technological wonders and dangers they will bring but the robustness of the civil society institutions that will nurture them. This may seem counterintuitive to many people. Surely novel technological capabilities require novel social institutions, right? The experience of the past century argues that the opposite is the case. Institutions tend to be modified more than replaced. They do not die out unless they demonstrate actual and substantial harm, and they adapt only as much as needed to provide a viable solution to pressing problems. We should respond to the challenges facing us by strengthening an evolving framework based on our best and most successful institutions. Of Civil Societies and Free Markets At the dawn of the 21st century, it is quite clear that states are prosperous when their civil society is strong, and peaceful when their civic statehood is strong. It is no surprise that most of the world's poorer and strife-wracked states are those with no or little civic nature: totalitarian states, personal dictatorships and kleptocracies. A civil society is a vast network of networks, beginning with the individual and moving outward to encompass families, community organizations, congregations, social organizations and businesses-all invented by individuals coming together voluntarily. Such civil societies beget civic states. These states are ones in which authority begins at the local and community level and gradually is built upwards to deal with wider-scale issues. Civic states are built on community assent and a feeling of participation in a local, regional and national community, and the authority of the state is not upheld by constant exercise of force but by the willingness of citizens to comply with its directives. At the root of civil society is the individual. People who define themselves primarily as members of collective entities, whether families, religions, racial or ethnic groups, political movements or even corporations, cannot be the basis of a civil society. Societies that place individuals under the permanent discipline of inherited or assigned collectivities, and permanently bind them into such, remain bogged down in family favoritism; ethnic, racial or religious factionalism; or the "crony capitalism" that has marred the economies of East Asia and Latin America. Democracy and free markets are effects of a strong civil society and strong civic state, not their causes. Over the past century, there has been a misdirection of attention to the surface mechanics of democracy, to nose-counting rather than the underlying roots of the phenomenon. It was clear that a society containing the strong networks of association characteristic of a civil society also develops the means of expressing the interests of society to the state. It is the need for effective means of expression that gave rise to the original governmental mechanisms we now call democracy. Later, intellectuals in societies that did not have a strong civil society (particularly pre-Revolutionary France) looked at societies that did (particularly England) and attempted to distill an abstract theoretical construct capturing the essence of that experience. They called this democracy, but they subsequently focused attention on their model (and its misunderstandings) rather than the essence of what they actually admired. England's strong civic state had its roots in local expressions of civil society, a process certainly well rooted by the 14th century. These include the grand and petit jury systems, the election of various aldermen and other local officials and the quasi-official role of many civil society institutions. Selecting members of the House of Commons was one of many different mechanisms by which local communities gave or withheld their consent to the state. The lesson of English history has been repeated many times over, up to and including contemporary events in Taiwan and South Korea. When civil society reaches a certain degree of complexity, democracy emerges. Without civil society, importing the procedures, rituals and even institutions of democracy results only in instituting one more set of spoils for families and groups to fight over at the expense of the rest of society. Democratic mechanisms no more create civil society than wet streets cause rain. Similarly, the market economy is more than the absence of socialism or strong government; it is the economic expression of a strong civil society, just as substantive (rather than formulaic) democracy is the political expression of a civil society and civic state. Entrepreneurship in business uses and requires the same talents and often the same motives that go into starting a church, a nonprofit organization or a political party. The society that can create entrepreneurial businesses tends to be able to create the other forms of organizations as well. Often, the same individuals start several of each form at different stages in their lives. The market economy also requires a civil society with general acceptance of a common framework of laws, practices and manners. Without a general acceptance of fair dealing, an agreement on what fair dealing means, and an adjudication system that can resolve and enforce resolution of disputes, a true market economy cannot exist-as developments in the post-Soviet sphere indicate. These realizations have immense implications for today. The rapid formation, deployment and financing of enterprises like those found in Silicon Valley are an inherent characteristic of a strong civil society. The strong role of non-company organizations (such as professional and industry associations and informal networks of acquaintances) in Silicon Valley also suggest that such entrepreneurism is a strong civil-society phenomenon. And it is highly likely that the innovations spawned by the current Information Revolution-including the Internet, the communication satellite and high-bandwidth fiber-optic cable-will spur innovation in the other science-based revolutions. Indeed, the new technologies have strengthened civic states and societies, making them even more competitive vis-`-vis what could be called the "economic state:" the centralized nation-state in which the government draws its raison d'jtre from presiding over the transfer of benefits between generations, classes and regions. The problem for economic states, such as France, is that when creativity does arise and ventures start, the prevailing set of social, economic and political institutions retards their growth. In corrupt and undemocratic countries with weak civil societies, family networks permit entrepreneurs to get around these obstacles-but only up to a point. They cannot expand easily beyond that. In stronger civil societies, such as Germany, that have high-trust characteristics but lack openness and flexibility in their political and social systems, ventures start but can become frustrated by bureaucratic barriers. There is a French Silicon Valley, but it does not lie in any of the technology centers planned by the French state; rather, it stretches from Dover to London, where hundreds of thousands of young French men and women have relocated to pursue their dreams without the high taxes and social burdens of the Continent. The Economic State's Decline and Fall States with high regulatory and tax burdens are now coming under heavy pressure as they increasingly find themselves outdistanced. The erosion of the monopoly of the economic state over most arenas of human activities is traceable to the lowering of transaction costs for international financial activities in the 1960s, which allowed major corporations and banks to take advantage of the lower tax and regulatory burdens of tax havens such as the Netherlands Antilles. Corporations became sophisticated consumers of "sovereignty services." Over the past three decades, these trends have accelerated enormously as the breakup of old European empires gave rise to many new sovereign entities. The increase in the number of providers, combined with the falling cost of accessing them, has made sovereignty services (incorporation, ship registration, citizenship, residency permits and so on) a highly competitive market area. As devolution produces yet more sovereign states and the Internet reduces the cost of accessing the services to rock bottom, this market can be expected to flourish. The market for sovereignty services has shown great price elasticity: the users of offshore accounts, shell corporations and trust mechanisms proliferate as the transaction costs of setting upsuch services fall. Consider the ability to sell products and services on the Internet, and the decline of the corporation-employment model (seen in downsizing, delayering and in the rise of "free-agent" contractors and entrepreneurs). Private Internet currencies based on strong encryption (cybermoney) will soon provide payment mechanisms that are not recorded in central clearing houses and are thus beyond subpoena power. Much of the actual economic activity in the coming era will pass (and already has passed) out of the strictly national realm. Even the most powerful nation-states are beginning to find it impossible to set currency or interest rates without reference to the world market. Nor can the economic state count on coercive solutions to counteract this trend. It cannot tax what it cannot see. One of the products of cheap, ubiquitous computing has been the growing, worldwide availability of strong programs for encrypting data on personal computers. With such programs, individuals and companies can communicate and trade beyond the easy ability of governments to intercept or, if proper precautions are taken, even to be aware that the transactions exist. States that cling unrealistically to the models of the past will find their economies becoming more like that of Italy, where a very substantial portion of GDP (over 50 percent by common estimates) is thought to be off the books and beyond the view (and reach) of the state. This becomes a vicious circle, as the declining collections force the state to cut services or raise the rates on those who still pay taxes-usually both at once. Cutting services causes taxpayers to question the value of their relationship with the government, and raising rates pushes more taxpayers further into tax avoidance. Both courses of action further reduce the ability of the state to command the sort of revenue stream it previously enjoyed. The reduction of the effective available percentage of GDP to taxation authorities will accelerate the existing trend toward the decline of economic states. An economic state's support rests primarily on its ability to transfer resources from one sector of society to another. Such states will be subject to stronger pressures to break apart, as the ability to shift wealth declines and the social compacts they support grow weaker. Pay-as-you-go services, such as Social Security in the United States, will be placed under ever-increasing fiscal pressure. To the extent that loyalty to states depends on the delivery of such elaborate benefits, economic states will become decreasingly cohesive. Some politicians believe that immigration of enough young wage-earners will make cuts from the retired generation's benefits needless. This contains a hidden assumption: that young immigrants, often poorer and from different cultures, will feel sufficient solidarity with the retirees to continue to support the necessary high levels of taxation. Without assimilation, this is a dubious prospect. The decline of the economic state will mostly be a quiet and gradual affair, a revolution made of many individual decisions that, when taken together and augmented by technical developments like high-speed air travel and satellite communications, have a cumulative effect. A Canadian executive may take a job in the United States because the income tax burden is so much lower. Continental Europeans might move to London to start a company in order to escape the "social burden" of regulation in France or Germany. And a company could outsource software development to India, where the workers speak English well and are cost-competitive. These are the sort of individual decisions that will shape the emerging world. What Lies Ahead a group of people, the self-described "cryptoanarchists", maintains that the availability of cyberspace transactions beyond the ability of the state to monitor or control will destroy the ability of the state to maintain itself. Those who adhere to this school of thought foresee an era of essentially chaotic social organization, in which market forms predominate in both the economy and other relationships. Although many of the individual premises of that argument have some validity, the results will not be as extreme as envisioned. Rather than ending the state, it is more likely that these changes will substantially transform its nature. Most states will either adapt to those changes, decline in wealth and importance or, in extreme cases, split apart. The ongoing technological revolutions mean that states will depend increasingly on voluntary forms for cohesion. Successful states are likely to have one or more of the following characteristics: *Small populations with a relatively confined geographical spread. Consensus and coherence are easier to achieve among a limited number of people in territorially-compact areas. This will favor small jurisdictions ranging from Caribbean island states to what Kenichi Ohmae terms "region-states." Jurisdictions larger than that will probably be structured as federations of civic states. *Ethnic or religious homogeneity. Religious or ethnic ties form a strong bond for cohesion. Israelis put up with the inordinate fiscal and regulatory interventions of their state because to leave Israel is to leave the community that supports their identity. *Visible success. Singaporeans put up with their intrusive government, even when few have any ideological, ethnic or religious reason to do so, because it has delivered visible prosperity and security to its inhabitants over their lifetimes. *Market-ordered economies with scope for individual enterprise. Citizens will tolerate state interventions in a market economy so long as they are not visibly harmful, leave room for individual enterprise, and allow the state to perform more reasonably the services people require. Citizens have stayed in social democracies with state-protected corporations and heavy taxation and regulation, but they tend to flee state-socialist regimes in droves whenever possible. Swedes have always been free to leave their country, while East Germans were not. Yet the latter fled in great numbers when the opportunity arose (to the ultimate demise of their state), while relatively few Swedes have exiled themselves. *Low transaction costs for leaving. It is far easier to maintain cohesion if unhappy persons are permitted and even encouraged to leave, rather than facing heavy penalties for doing so. Exit taxes are signs of a loser state. The Soviet Union was rightfully despised for levying one, and the United States should reconsider its plans to follow in its wake. Many malcontents will leave; more than a few will decide to return. And, having returned, they will be less discontented. Even permanent expatriates should be encouraged to maintain family and social ties with the home country. Expatriates can deliver useful business and political contacts even when they are not paying taxes. *Serving as the home base for a diaspora. A diaspora provides an environment for useful commercial relationships worldwide. Having even minuscule territory with sovereign characteristics (such as the ability to issue passports) makes life far easier for members of a diaspora. The Internet facilitates personal ties and continued access to one's home culture. *Maintaining enough international associations to enjoy the security, economic and cooperative ties formerly enjoyed only by large states. Iceland maintains a unique culture and language in a prosperous civil society with a population of only 270,000 people. As such, it would seem to be an advertisement for the viability of very small states. It is not at all clear, however, that it would be nearly as prosperous, secure or independent if not for its active memberships in NATO, the European Economic Area and the Nordic Council. *Sharing a positive, self-affirming narrative. Many such narratives are provided by religious, national or ethnic identity. Israel has a simple and effective narrative-exemplified in phrases such as "Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God, He is One", and "Never Again." Political entities that do not have ethnic or religious cohesion need a sophisticated and equally compelling narrative. The United States has a complex and compelling narrative-exemplified in the phrases, "We hold these truths to be self-evident" and "the wretched refuse of your teeming shores." Both have worked. Nations that lose the ability to sustain a positive narrative, on the other hand, lose coherence and identity, and thus voluntary citizen support. In the new environment, such nations will find it difficult to maintain revenue bases, enforce regulation or defend their citizens. In this world, civic states that are able to generate an essentially voluntary adherence on the part of their populations will dominate. The things of value that civic states provide for their citizens-principles, identity and a sense of community-are fundamentally intangible things that, unlike the economic aspects of sovereignty, cannot become commodities in the world marketplace. Such civic states are not likely to be able (or want) to form or sustain large-area organizations with tightly integrated populations that generate a consensus to pay for and share an elaborate structure of state-provided and state-mediated benefits consuming high (33 to 60 percent) proportions of the state's GDP. The decline, decentralization and, in some cases, destruction of economic states will strengthen civic states by providing impetus to the search for newer, more flexible and less centralized mechanisms linking large-scale activities. Do larger-scale economic areas like the European Union offer a potential solution to this perfect storm of the economic state? To the extent that such unions concentrate on the positive accomplishments of the Union, the answer is a qualified yes. The EU has had some success in promoting free movement of people, capital and ideas throughout its internal area, and facilitating cooperation in all areas where existing commonalities permit greater cooperation between similar cultures. A union that would seek to create a common economic, informational, and residency space for the citizens of its member-nations could be of benefit. However, to the extent that the EU has ended up dictating the social policies of its member-nations, attempted (with some success) to relocate executive power from national bodies under democratic scrutiny to unscrutinized bodies on Union-wide levels, and maintained large cross-regional subsidies to buy assent, it is not only not a solution, but becomes a new type of problem in itself. The EU has become to international cooperative organizations what the economic state has become to the nation-state. By trying to become an economic state on a wider scale, the EU has increased the amount of bureaucracy, top-down planning and intervention. Additionally, it has replaced some of the barriers with which small states have tried to insulate themselves from economic reality by a new, Union-wide set of more insidious non-market barriers, particularly in the area of rigid and expensive standards, and subsidy programs that have the same ultimately futile goal in the world economy. By trying to maintain an already strained entitlement and dirigisme-based political and social model, the EU will find itself under ever-increasing pressure in the coming decade because of these structural weaknesses, aggravating an increasing demographic crisis. The Rise of the Network Commonwealth In discussions about these changes and their effects, two schools of thought seem to have emerged to date. One is a gloomy and apocalyptic vision of many small, essentially unconnected mini-states engaged in intermittent low-level conflict and confrontation, reminiscent of Hobbes's "War of All Against All." It is a vision of a few rich Singapores and many poor, conflict-torn Kosovos. This view is reflected in political works such as Robert D. Kaplan's The Coming Anarchy, and in the imagined worlds of futurist fiction such as Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age. The other could be described as a "One World via Internet" vision of increased communication (with English as the universal language), omnidirectional cooperation and networking on a world scale. Its proponents, such as the cyber-futurists of Wired magazine, envision that lowering the transaction costs of cooperation to a uniform level worldwide will make it equally likely for any one person anywhere to cooperate with any other person anywhere else. In many versions, less futurist, less libertarian, but more typical of Hegelian-Kantian internationalists, it leads to a vision of world governance-of increasing integration into regional transnational organizations, such as the European Union and nafta, in parallel with single-purpose world-level structures such as the World Trade Organization, ultimately all merging into a mode of world governance. If the one vision leads to a few Singapores and many Kosovos, the other, it is thought, will spawn a multicultural Golden Era, benignly presided over by an enlightened United Nations and its international organs.1 Neither vision is likely to be realized. The breakdown of the old structures need not, and probably will not, continue infinitely. If it were to persist, the ongoing division of national communities would result in an undifferentiated and disconnected mass of ever-smaller nation-states-or, more honestly said, tribal states. The dissolution of the ussr and of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia show what the human costs of such processes can be. Equally, there is an inherent limit to the prospect of any form of universal or global governance in the near future. Such a government (unless it is a disguised empire of a major power imposed on the rest) would have to be constructed on a lowest-common-denominator basis to include a substantial collection of hapless dictatorships, rotten oligarchies and shabby kleptocracies. One need only look at the ineffectiveness of the United Nations in coping with many global issues to see the limits of this approach. In between the old natural unit marking the limits of easy cooperation, namely the nation-state, and the distantly (and perhaps chimerically) glimpsed vision of universal civilization, we must interpose a middling form: a set of like, but not identical, societies sharing a number of common characteristics, within which social cooperation bears significantly lower transaction costs than without. This now-emerging entity is the network civilization-a new civilizational form enabled by networks. Consider the visible effects of the current phase of the scientific-technological revolutions: the Internet; the communication satellite and high-bandwidth fiber-optic cable; fast, cheap intercontinental air travel; and all the rest. Even today, these have brought geographically distant areas into close proximity for many purposes. The acceleration of these technological and economic trends will make this "tele-proximity" even more significant. Collaboration in all areas-economic, educational, political-is becoming relatively easier at a distance. But as the old natural barriers to trade and communication-mountain ranges, wide oceans, and other natural barriers-no longer need be borders, the next most significant set of barriers remains-differences in language, customs, legal systems, religions, and other significant values, and particularly things like trust. The network civilization is associated primarily on the lines of cultural contiguity: groups of nations sharing language, customs, legal systems, religions and other significant values, most specifically, trust characteristics. It has sometimes been asserted that the global adoption of English will abolish transaction costs of cooperation between civilizations, or that automated translation will do so. Although both phenomena are real, it is unlikely they will have the expected effect, for it is precisely the unexpressed web of assumptions behind the formal words that create the barriers between cooperation. "We must make an accommodation" has a different nuance in a business discussion in Lima, Ohio from one in Lima, Peru. On the other hand, the unprecedented rapidity, cheapness and ease of use of modern telecommunications, particularly the Internet and World Wide Web, knits together culturally similar societies into what is rapidly becoming a single cultural artifact subdivided along many different lines. Consider one example: the changes in the public debates in the English-speaking world at the time of the Gulf War, the Balkan interventions of the mid-1990s and the Iraq War. The debates over the Gulf War were overwhelmingly conducted in the traditional style of the 20th century, somewhat accelerated by satellite television. That is, America, Britain and other nations each witnessed a debate among their traditional policy elites in legislatures, the media, and academic circles. The American media analyzed, summarized, and then presented their summary of "British opinion" on the matter; the British media likewise encapsulated their impression of American debate and presented it domestically. During the Balkan crises, Americans began to be able to follow lengthy sections of the British parliamentary debate directly on cable television; the proliferation of cable services and cable channels, particularly ones devoted entirely to news and politics, suddenly made it possible for millions of Americans to follow a debate that previously would have been scrutinized in such a level of detail by mere hundreds, or at most thousands, of diplomats and academics. Although the speed at which events unfolded was far faster, Americans and British debaters spoke as much for and from their national communities as an Athenian or Corinthian might have 22 centuries previously. By the time of the Iraq War, the proliferation of the Internet and such phenomena as Web logs-individually produced Web diaries updated daily or even hourly, with direct links to other "blogs", often linking to eyewitness accounts to current events, and to a huge host of media sources-created a situation in which political debate effectively occurred seamlessly across the English-speaking world without the intervening mediation of cultural and political elites. It was a debate segmented primarily by political position rather than by nationality. In fact, both pro- and antiwar opinion was often elaborated by group blogs, each of which were collaborative efforts stretching from London to Sydney and everywhere in between. Both because of direct contact across the Web, and by the indirect effect of subjecting traditional media to criticism and feedback of a scope, level and intensity never before experienced, political debate over the Iraq War has experienced a remarkable degree of disintermediation and popular involvement. This experience promises to become a new benchmark for future reportage and debate. All indications suggest that these patterns will intensify rather than abate. Network civilizations appear to be the next step in expanding the circle of civil society, which has elaborated itself over time from local and regional networks of commercial, intellectual and civic collaboration, to networks of national scale. The Industrial Revolution made continent-spanning nation-states possible. The Information Revolution offers the possibility that civil societies may link themselves on a globe-spanning-although not universally inclusive-scale. Such is the network civilization. It can hardly fail to call forth political and economic forms to parallel its effects. The Network Commonwealth is an effort to name an equivalent form for the network civilization, and to identify its emerging precursors in existing institutions. Just as the ethnic nation was the raw material from which the classical nation-state was built, so the network civilization is the raw material from which the Network Commonwealth is being built. This facilitates the movement of people, goods and services across borders, forming and strengthening shared cultures (both elite and popular) and experiences-for example, common publications read by the publics of all of the nations of a particular network civilization. In turn, this lays the foundation for greater institutional cooperation (in the form ofcommon markets, permanent security alliances and joint scientific and technological projects). A Network Commonwealth would build on these existing forms of transnational cooperation and thus emerge along existing information-oriented lines of linguistic and cultural affinity. It would be defined by close trading relationships and substantial military cooperation and intelligence-sharing among its constituent states, as well as a high degree of intra-network flows of migration and investment. The Network Commonwealth is not a nation-state of the historical type. It is not a state at all, although it has the potential to offer an alternative means for fulfilling some traditional functions of economic states. It is a means of linking smaller political communities so that they can deal with common concerns. It is a way to provide opportunities to their members-opportunities that cannot be provided by small, independent sovereignties alone, and for which economic states and empires exact too high a price. The emergence of the Network Commonwealth as a potential form of political, social and economic organization is driven by three emerging realities. First, the basis of the world economy is changing from manufacturing to information-the ideas and informational products, as well as the human minds and skills in which they are embodied. Just as agriculture remained important in the Machine Age, manufacturing (and agriculture) will remain important in the Era of the Information Revolution-but mastery of manufacturing will come with mastery of information, just as a mastery of agriculture passed to those who mastered machinery. Similarly, as military predominance once passed to those powers that led in industrialization, so too will military predominance pass to those who best master information technology. Second, physical space is no longer the most important factor in political association. Cultural space is. What is the result of this shift? In an Internet-mediated economy where information is the chief product, London, Toronto, Los Angeles, Cape Town and Sydney are next door to each other-while London and Paris, Toronto and Montrial, Los Angeles and Beijing, Sydney and Jakarta are all separated by a wall of differing visions and assumptions. Finally, cooperation is proportional to communication as complexity increases. Meaningful, thorough and successful cooperation is most easily accomplished among those who can communicate with the most depth and clarity-namely, those who share language, a set of political assumptions or common moral ideas. Certainly, substantial multinational and multicultural cooperation does occur in business, scientific and political circles, but when the focus of the cooperation is information-intensive (as in the production of software or motion pictures), it has most frequently been among companies rooted in the same linguistic communities. All-in-all, instantaneous, flat-rate and worldwide communications, in addition to cheap long-range aviation, are forming a new topology of political space. In this new environment, physical proximity is no longer the most important factor in either trade or power projection. Combined with this are political developments, such as free-trade agreements and migration arrangements permitting people to travel, visit, study or work freely outside their native country. This is driving a transition from organization along lines of geographical proximity to structures organized primarily along civilizational lines. A further spur to the development of Network Commonwealths is that they promise to provide many benefits without the costs that economic states have historically imposed on individuals and society. The Emerging Anglosphere Because Britain, and subsequently the United States, experienced the Industrial Revolution and political modernity early on, the English-speaking nations have tended to be in the forefront of social, political and economic evolution and to develop particularly strong civil societies. The position of the United States in the Information Revolution and the emergence of the Internet have continued this tendency. So it is likely that Network Commonwealth structures will probably emerge in the English-speaking world quite early. Some developments to date indicate that this is indeed happening. Internally, the Anglosphere already exhibits a web of network civilizational ties that could become the precursors of a budding Network Commonwealth. Publications like the Financial Times and the Economist, for example, effectively serve the entire English-speaking network civilization, not simply a Britain-based constituency. One can also speak of an emerging Anglosphere entertainment industry, based upon the growing collaboration of Australian, American and British directors and actors (and the use of New Zealand for film-shooting), where the final product appears on screens from Canberra to Chicago to Cambridge. Already, a high proportion of foreign direct investment-now a more important measure of economic integration than trade in physical goods-in all English-speaking countries is from other English-speaking countries. Network civilizational ties have helped to spawn a series of common institutions. The close military relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom, once again displayed in the recent Iraq War, laid the basis for the world's longest-lasting and most successful alliance, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Similarly, anzus binds the Anglosphere nations of the Pacific in a similar mutual defense pact. Other institutional examples of the emerging Anglosphere include the us-UK-a intelligence-sharing scheme and close cooperation between American and British intelligence services; organizations that contain a substantial but incomplete set of English-speaking nations, such as the Commonwealth of Nations; and a large number of regional sets of collaborative institutions, mostly linking the three main pairings of English-speaking states (the United States and Canada, the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, and Australia and New Zealand). All-in-all, there are a substantial number of British and American activities and non-trivial sets of intra-Commonwealth institutions. U.S.-Canadian collaborative institutions are of particular interest because they achieve a very substantial degree of cooperation while being based on a strict understanding of national sovereignty. Unlike the European case, there is no master treaty of U.S.-Canadian integration that pledges an "ever-closer union:" neither Jacksonian Americans nor Canadian nationalists would tolerate any threat, however latent, of a permanent surrender of sovereignty. Yet the U.S.-Canada Free Trade Agreement (and its more broadly focused successor nafta), as well as norad in the defense realm, are both conspicuously successful examples of international cooperation. One obvious route for further elaborating intra-Anglosphere ties would be to extend nafta to Australia and New Zealand, a move already under discussion among policymakers. Another would be to bring into daylight the existing us-UK-a intelligence-sharing arrangements (not formally acknowledged at present) in the form of a public mutual-assistance treaty and permanent formal organization. Such a step might assist in demonstrating a publicly-visible oversight mechanism for its controversial elements such as the Echelon data-intercept system. Welcoming the United Kingdom and, in some areas, the Republic of Ireland into organizations formed on the armature of U.S.-Canadian collaboration is likely to depend upon the future course of European integration. The Washington-London economic and security relationship is the key relationship of the Anglosphere, considered either in economic terms or military heft. If evaluated on a dynamic scale anticipating trends in the Information Revolution, the potential for even closer British-American economic integration is substantial. It is also a question of balance. An Anglosphere Network Commonwealth without the UK is predominantly the United States with appendages. With the UK, and particularly the financial capabilities of London, intra-Anglosphere relations are not so lopsided. Yet, given the substantial turbulence likely in European relations over the next decade due to its accelerating demographic and fiscal-structural issues, a looser Europe more open to closer UK-Anglosphere ties is more rather than less likely. Even today, after decades of British membership in the European Union, there is a substantial gulf in attitudes towards America between Britain and Continental Europe. Not only was this seen in the Iraq War, but at a popular level twice as many Britons report feeling closer to the United States than to their Continental neighbors. A recent survey by the Economist, largely a pro-EU magazine, showed that more Britons felt represented by the American flag than by the EU one, and far more of them identified with the United States than Europe as Britain's most likely source of help. An Anglosphere Network Common-wealth would emerge from a series of parallel, overlapping and non-exclusive cooperative organizations. Not all Anglosphere nations would be expected to be involved in every other one. Ireland, for example, would probably find the economic and migration dimensions to be of interest, but would probably not participate in defense-related activities. Nor should a rigid linguistic-cultural test be used to exclude automatically a particular nation if its cooperation would be otherwise useful. After all, whether a particular nation is a member of a particular network civilization is in many cases likely to be a matter of debate to which there is no automatic answer. Neither India, South Africa nor even Canada are entirely English-speaking, but they all are significant actors in the Anglosphere. Still more so, India is part of the Anglosphere even though it is not primarily English-speaking. Yet its burgeoning military alliance with the United States is facilitated both by the fact of an English-speaking elite and, more particularly, by the British "character" and traditions of its military forces. So it is probably more useful to define network civilizations inclusively rather than exclusively: some significant degree of English-speaking population, and some degree of institutional affinity with Anglosphere legal or governmental practices probably make it valid to include a nation in the broader definition of the Anglosphere, and thus indicate that such a nation might usefully participate in some of its cooperative institutions, including an emerging Network Commonwealth. What Spheres May Follow? The more the highest value in international trade shifts from natural resources, agricultural commodities and low-tech manufactured goods to information products and services delivered via the Internet, the more lines of trade and cooperation will fall along linguistic-cultural lines rather than geographic ones. This is true not only for the Anglosphere. Similarly, there has been an increasing trend for Spanish-language information trade (particularly in electronic entertainment) to flow seamlessly through what, by extension, could be dubbed the "Hispanosphere:" an elastic entity that includes Los Angeles and Miami as well as Madrid, Mexico City and Buenos Aires. Indeed, the Spanish-speaking world is another prime candidate for the creation of such a Network Commonwealth in the near future. Spanish-language information productions (not only books and periodicals but television programs and movies) flow freely across borders. Spanish-language literature is enjoyed across national boundaries, and something like a pan-Hispanosphere intellectual dialogue exists. The Spanish-language Internet world lags behind that of the Anglosphere, for obvious economic reasons, but similar trends can be observed within that world. In the economic realm, Spanish companies played a substantial role in the modernization of Latin American economies during the 1990s and can be expected to play a similar role in the future. Spain is now poised to become the world's leading investor in Latin America. This is a new phenomenon, as Latin Americans since independence have looked to France, Britain and Am erica for foreign economic participants. Yet it is likely to continue, and perhaps accelerate, depending partly on whether the European Union's structural evolution begins to create obstacles to Hispanosphere economic cooperation. Given its demographic vigor, the Hispanosphere could also emerge as another network civilization. Although there has been relatively little effort to create formal institutions to date, due partly to existing intra-Hispanosphere rivalries, the cultural and economic spheres offer obvious places to start-and there are proposals to turn the annual Ibero-American Summit into a more permanent forum. Additionally, Spain, like Britain, will eventually have to decide to what extent its European ties can be permitted to limit its ability to collaborate with its overseas linguistic compatriots. Both may find that a looser definition of the European project is attractive as a consequence. Indeed, for Spain, a freer movement of peoples from Latin America could present a more tolerable solution to its share of Europe's demographic challenges than its current course of action-dependence upon a flow of migrant labor from North Africa. Along with the possible emerging Hispanosphere, France supports a substantial apparatus-La Francophonie-for pan-Francophone relations that could serve as the nucleus for a Francosphere Network Commonwealth. And finally, the increasingly close connections between Brazil and the former Portuguese states of Africa foreshadows the possible development of a Lusophere. Such ties would be an asset out of proportion to Portugal's other economic opportunities. Might the Network Commonwealth ameliorate situations in which ethnic populations spill over international borders? The Commonwealth of Independent States-and now Putin's current program for a common economic space that includes Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan-has been suspect as a stalking-horse for a renewed Soviet Union or revived Russian empire. Similarly, Chinese interest in Taiwan and Chinese-populated states such as Singapore, and Turkish ambitions in the Turkic-speaking states of Central Asia have also been viewed with suspicion. Yet in each case, a Network Commonwealth approach might provide an outlet for these ambitions without presenting the problems that any effort at state-building or incorporation would arouse. Can the European Union itself be considered a Network Commonwealth of sorts? It has abolished state monopolies, opened protected markets and has greatly increased the average European's freedom to travel, reside, work and compete throughout its territory. Most importantly, it has served to keep many of its politically more marginal members, such as Spain or Greece, from backsliding into dictatorship-thereby creating an incentive for shaky Mediterranean, central and east European democracies to join. But the answer is no. It is difficult to envision the very broad Union, now realized with the accession of the central and east European states, ever successfully replicating the level of integration of France and Germany from the Azores to the suburbs of St. Petersburg. The inherent problems in defining a "common European culture" that includes all Union member-states but excludes the Americas and Australasia make the idea of a wider European state or a "European Network Commonwealth" highly problematic. What is more likely to emerge over time is a European Union structure that enables its member-states to develop Network Commonwealth ties with their non-European civilizational partners. The most likely arrangement-to oversimplify brutally-is a "variable geometry" Europe with a tight federation of the Rhenish states (grouped around the Franco-German core) much more loosely linked with the four historically "exceptionalist" areas: the British Isles, Iberia, Scandinavia and east-central Europe. None of these areas, for various reasons, ever experienced the full charms of the Colbertian state, and each thus retains a core of resistance to implementing such institutions on a wider scale. Whether the tight federation or the wider, loosely linked trade area bears the name "European Union" is a taxonomic quibble. Alternatives to World Governance Evolutionary conservatism argues that organizing closely-linked sovereign nations into a loose and flexible structure is a less costly step than organizing wide-scale, rigid unions. The evolution of political forms thus favors the Network Commonwealth. This is demonstrated by the fate of proposals like that of author Clarence Streit in the late-1940s to form an "Atlantic Union", a permanent federal union of the Atlantic democracies. Although this idea had potential benefits, it also had a number of real problems, many of which have also been encountered in the process of building the European Union. Almost all of the benefits of the proposed Atlantic Union promised could have been, and in fact later were, delivered by less radical mechanisms that neither imposed the costs nor met the resistance that a federal union threatened. Many of these alternative mechanisms are the same institutions that promise to become the sinews of a Network Commonwealth: free trade agreements, alliance structures and cooperative organizations. As returns from revenue collections (income, capital and sales taxation) decline, the economic states that once derived direct benefit from their large scale will find such benefits increasingly elusive. Rising costs and falling benefits will foster their devolution or breakup. Still, benefits to large-scale organization remain. They include mobility of productive people over wide areas and cooperative pooling for defense or scientific research purposes. These benefits can be realized more cheaply by Network Commonwealth arrangements than by maintaining large-scale economic states or by trying to form purely economic unions. The proposal to form a free-trade agreement between nafta and the European Union (most recently raised by British Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown) is fine as far as it goes. But new forms of common economic space must also be realized to facilitate the collaboration of software, media, financial services and other high-value information products among countries that are information neighbors. nafta, the eea and the proposed nafta-EU link may ultimately have more value in the future as means of linking different Network Commonwealths, rather than as proto-commonwealths in themselves. nafta's true vocation may be to link the communities of Shakespeare and Cervantes rather than merely serve as a means of allowing the sale of cheaper tomatoes in American supermarkets. Rather than problematic schemes of universal transnational governance, associated commonwealths, achieving more modest goals more effectively, could be the prevailing political form of international organization in the 21st century. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jan 28 05:21:24 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:21:24 +0100 Subject: privacy and deviance Message-ID: <20040128132124.GV4794@leitl.org> By refusing to tell you reveal you're weird, or think you are. http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/idl/papers/deviance/index.html Bernardo A. Huberman, Eytan Adar and Leslie R. Fine HP Laboratories Palo Alto, CA 94304 Abstract In spite of the widespread concerns expressed about the importance of privacy, individuals frequently give away or sell a myriad of personal data. How and why people decide to transition their information from the private to the public sphere is poorly understood. To address this puzzle, we conducted a reverse second-price auction to identify the monetary value of private information to individuals and how that value is set. Our results demonstrate that deviance, whether perceived or actual, from the group.s average asymmetrically impacts the price demanded to reveal private information. Full paper: deviance.pdf http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/idl/papers/deviance/deviance.pdf -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jan 28 05:30:15 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:30:15 +0100 Subject: TEST, ignore (was Re: privacy and deviance) In-Reply-To: <20040128132124.GV4794@leitl.org> References: <20040128132124.GV4794@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040128133015.GW4794@leitl.org> Now that was weird. Sorry for this post; testing. On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 02:21:24PM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > By refusing to tell you reveal you're weird, or think you are. > http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/idl/papers/deviance/index.html Bernardo A. > Huberman, Eytan Adar and Leslie R. Fine HP Laboratories Palo Alto, CA > 94304 Abstract In spite of the widespread concerns expressed about the > importance of privacy, individuals frequently give away or sell a myriad > of personal data. How and why people decide to transition their > information from the private to the public sphere is poorly understood. > To address this puzzle, we conducted a reverse second-price auction to > identify the monetary value of private information to individuals and how > that value is set. Our results demonstrate that deviance, whether > perceived or actual, from the group.s average asymmetrically impacts the > price demanded to reveal private information. Full paper: deviance.pdf > http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/idl/papers/deviance/deviance.pdf -- Eugen* > Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: > 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 > B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org > http://nanomachines.net > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jan 28 05:31:36 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:31:36 +0100 Subject: TEST2, ignore; Re: TEST, ignore (was Re: privacy and deviance) In-Reply-To: <20040128133015.GW4794@leitl.org> References: <20040128132124.GV4794@leitl.org> <20040128133015.GW4794@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040128133136.GX4794@leitl.org> I suppose it's the signature; let's see what happens... On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 02:30:15PM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Now that was weird. Sorry for this post; testing. On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 > at 02:21:24PM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > By refusing to tell you reveal > you're weird, or think you are. > > http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/idl/papers/deviance/index.html Bernardo A. > > Huberman, Eytan Adar and Leslie R. Fine HP Laboratories Palo Alto, CA > > 94304 Abstract In spite of the widespread concerns expressed about the > > importance of privacy, individuals frequently give away or sell a myriad > > of personal data. How and why people decide to transition their > > information from the private to the public sphere is poorly understood. > > To address this puzzle, we conducted a reverse second-price auction to > > identify the monetary value of private information to individuals and how > > that value is set. Our results demonstrate that deviance, whether > > perceived or actual, from the group.s average asymmetrically impacts the > > price demanded to reveal private information. Full paper: deviance.pdf > > http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/idl/papers/deviance/deviance.pdf -- > Eugen* > Leitl leitl > > ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: > > 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 > > B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org > > http://nanomachines.net > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type > application/pgp-signature] -- Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: > 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 > B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org > http://nanomachines.net > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Wed Jan 28 18:54:10 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:54:10 -0500 Subject: Networking Nation-States..well written but wrong. Message-ID: >Without civil >society, importing the procedures, rituals and even institutions of >democracy results only in instituting one more set of spoils for families >and groups to fight over at the expense of the rest of society. Democratic >mechanisms no more create civil society than wet streets cause rain. >Similarly, the market economy is more than the absence of socialism or >strong government; it is the economic expression of a strong civil society, >just as substantive (rather than formulaic) democracy is the political >expression of a civil society and civic state. Entrepreneurship in business >uses and requires the same talents and often the same motives that go into >starting a church, a nonprofit organization or a political party. The >society that can create entrepreneurial businesses tends to be able to >create the other forms of organizations as well. Often, the same >individuals start several of each form at different stages in their >lives... >The market economy also requires a civil society with general acceptance of >a common framework of laws, practices and manners. Without a general >acceptance of fair dealing, an agreement on what fair dealing means, and an >adjudication system that can resolve and enforce resolution of disputes, a >true market economy cannot exist-as developments in the post-Soviet sphere >indicate." Nicely written prose, but simply wrong. The existence of China as a freewheeling capitalist superpower but yet with little civil "democracy" per se pretty much proves that this widely-held myth is wrong. And I don't see any inherent reason to believe this will change. And even on the economic side, deals in China follow closely upon the power of relationships. If you are well-connected you have a much better chance of your business succeeding than if you are not. Indeed, if you are not well connected then you run the chance of eventually running afoul of whatever laws exist out there and your operation could be greatly curtailed. If you are well-connected than almost no law can stand in your way. And China won't be the only society that follows this pattern. Vietnam will go a similar route as well perhaps other nations in SE Asia. Perhaps North Korea will eventually follow this model. And you know what? It works, and there looks like there's no inherent reason to believe it somehow has to be more egalitarian or more fair. In the end our beliefs about democracy and free markets have much more to do with Western history and social development than any divine law of the universe. The moral of this story is that having a "free market" (whatever that means) is not the same thing as having political freedom. You have to continue to fight for both. Those that tell you that capitalism equals freedom are probably the same ones that will launch a war in Iraq for the grand cause of Halliburton and Bechtel, touting this set of nice lies so that the locals will lay down and take it up the ass, all in the name of "democracy". Fortunately, people are getting wise. Anyone know the current body count of US soldiers in Iraq? -TD _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 From blueeskimo at phreaker.net Thu Jan 29 18:37:44 2004 From: blueeskimo at phreaker.net (Adam) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:37:44 -0500 Subject: SPCS MSL codes Message-ID: <20040129213744.4d64ff94.blueeskimo@phreaker.net> Anyone have any idea how SPCS MSL codes are generated? I believe they're essentially a hash of the phone's ESN, but I haven't been able to determine exactly what algorithm they use. It would save me a lot of time if I could figure out how they do it (this would be for legal purposes; just need a timesaver). Thanks. -- Adam From rsw at jfet.org Fri Jan 30 14:38:32 2004 From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:38:32 -0500 Subject: all the viruses, spam and bounces that are all I get from this list at the moment In-Reply-To: <017f01c3e77a$f06bd150$01c8a8c0@broadbander>; from DaveHowe@gmx.co.uk on Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 09:49:28PM -0000 References: <200401300111.i0U1BIPY008397@calgary.qedinfo.com> <017f01c3e77a$f06bd150$01c8a8c0@broadbander> Message-ID: <20040130173832.A3442@positron.mit.edu> Dave Howe wrote: > Bah, I really miss the crap-filtered version of cypherpunks > can anyone recommend a better node than the one I am using now? Well, you might consider me slightly biased (since I run the node), but I recommend cypherpunks at al-qaeda.net. Filtered in essentially the same way as LNE was. Send "subscribe" to cypherpunks-request at al-qaeda.net. -- Riad Wahby rsw at jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk Fri Jan 30 13:49:28 2004 From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (Dave Howe) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:49:28 -0000 Subject: all the viruses, spam and bounces that are all I get from this list at the moment References: <200401300111.i0U1BIPY008397@calgary.qedinfo.com> Message-ID: <017f01c3e77a$f06bd150$01c8a8c0@broadbander> Bah, I really miss the crap-filtered version of cypherpunks can anyone recommend a better node than the one I am using now? From camera_lumina at hotmail.com Sat Jan 31 10:49:19 2004 From: camera_lumina at hotmail.com (Tyler Durden) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:49:19 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunkly concerns over virii Message-ID: One byproduct I'm noticing as a result of the MyDoom virus(es) is that we're seeing all sorts of email addresses we've never seen before. Does this mean these are all sorts of subscribers' names we've never seen before? Is a byproduct of this virus to "out" lurkers? If that's the case, then it may be worth thinking about some interesting possible sources for virii of this type. -TD _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 From gabe at seul.org Sat Jan 31 11:18:08 2004 From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:18:08 -0500 Subject: Cypherpunkly concerns over virii In-Reply-To: ; from camera_lumina@hotmail.com on Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 01:49:19PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20040131141808.A27600@seul.org> On Sat, Jan 31, at 01:49PM, Tyler Durden wrote: | One byproduct I'm noticing as a result of the MyDoom virus(es) is that we're | seeing all sorts of email addresses we've never seen before. Does this mean | these are all sorts of subscribers' names we've never seen before? Is a | byproduct of this virus to "out" lurkers? I doubt it. The virus notice messages we get are generally bounces sent to random addresses with cypherpunks at minder.net forged as the return address. That's why we see them on the list...