I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
Tyler Durden
camera_lumina at hotmail.com
Tue Dec 23 12:07:09 PST 2003
Well, again you've WAY oversimplified things.
Indeed, this oversimplification is curiously identical to US foregin policy
mistakes.
Ho Chi Min, like Mao, would take guns from anybody in order to get the job
done. If that meant wearing a Soviet uniform for 15 minutes, then sobeit.
Don't mistake that for Eastern-European-style Soviet block "governments".
Was Ho Chi Min ultimately a dictator? Sure. A Soviet-style dictator? Well,
I'd argue only nominally. I'd also argue that our post World War II betrayal
of Ho had a lot to do with shoving him into the arms of the Soviets, just
like with Mao. (But in neither case did the association stick.) The
important notion is that, unlike in Europe, China and Vietnam never had
anything resembling a democracy or Parliament or anything like that. They
were still largely fuedal, agrarian societies that weren't really in a
position to critically evaluate the implications of Soviet-style rulership
(and in fact they probably viewed it as being merely a non-Monarchic version
of what they'd always done). BUT...the Soviets were providing guns and money
and we weren't.
That both countries were really only externally Stalinst for a brief while
(ie, a couple of decades) is evidenced by the fact that both economies are
as about, in SOME ways, as free-wheeling and as capitalistic as exists these
days. Of course, both are still certainly authoritarian and, depending on
the subject, oppressive, but this has nothing to do with their
politico-economic stance per se, as is now obvious.
In other words, the moral of this story is that you can't merely graft on a
western political philosophy--in this case Marxism--to cultures that have
unbroken traditions dating back to the stone age. It may look 'Marxist' on
the outside, but internally that transplant ain't going to take root.
That US foreign policy in the far east in in Indo-China during most decades
of the 20th century was a complete disaster was precisely due to the views
you seem to hold. It's why we didn't back Mao when even though it was
obvious BILLIONS of dollars were being siphoned away by Soong Tse-Vung and
the Chiang regime...it's why we backed Lon Nol to overthrow Sihounouk
(bringing in the Khmer rouge), and it's why we didn't back Ho even though he
fought with us against the Japanese.
Had we stood back from our prejudices, respected the soverignity of those
nations, engaged and offered some guns in order for them to choose their OWN
government, I'd bet the era of Soviet-style government in both China and
Vietnam would have been much shorter, and in Cambodia it would have
CERTAINLY never existed.
In other words, YOU (and people with beliefs just like yours in the US
government) are responsible for the spread of communism in the far east. Now
you and your friends (including, I suspect, the guy who signs your paycheck)
are going to do the same thing in the near east: you're going to force many
ostensibly neutral nations into the Fundamentalist Islamic camp, because you
just don't get it, and think we have the right to interfere.
"Well, the Soviets did it and the liberal left said it was great, so that
makes it right." Forget it. Stop saying this crap and use that brain. 9/11
sucked enough in this town...we don't need another.
-TD
>From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd at echeque.com>
>To: cypherpunks at minder.net
>Subject: Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:35:39 -0800
>
> --
>On 22 Dec 2003 at 22:02, Tyler Durden wrote:
> > If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB sockpuppet then you really
> > don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East Asian
> > history.
>
>He was not a KGB sock puppet. He was KGB.
>
>The indochinese communist party was run from a desk in Moscow,
>and the guy behind that desk in Moscow was one Ho Chi Minh.
>
>
> --digsig
> James A. Donald
> 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
> tUqRWDkYAq3CLoQkZ14K0qF1d7QxbWlf6d2ZXjZs
> 43Qc8nduD4tJh6uumE28HC7EsKfnNFvnGEYCCH0BO
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