Welcome Patrick (was Re: Making Money in Digital Money)

[Steve Schear]

At 09:27 PM 4/26/2003 -0700, James A. Donald wrote:
> > * Real DM will likely be introduced in a guerilla fashion,
> > much as Pr0duct Cypher anonymously released Magic Money a
> > decade ago.
>
>The mint cannot be anonymous.   Needs reputation, and sizable
>wealth. Mint probably employs programmer, or is programmer.
>
>If the code is public domain, then there will be multiple
>mints, with some more willing to disregard hostile governments
>than others.

I'm not sure if many on this list recognize that the one such person, 
Patrick, replied to the "RE: Thanks for the living hell, and question about 
OpenSSL" thread yesterday.  His Lucrative, open source DBI, is the first 
serious cypherpunks mint/ewallet code produced since Pr0duct Cypher's 
attempt many years ago.  Unlike the earlier stuff, its object oriented and 
uses some of the most current middleware tools and techniques.  Those on 
the list who fashion themselves as more than armchair cypherpunks would do 
well to visit his site http://lucrative.thirdhost.com/ ,  join the 
Lucrative mail list and/or chat with him privately.


>I suggest the following introduction:  Introduce for
>micropayment services (identity is too expensive for small
>payments, which is why credit cards fail below five dollars)
>Useful for antispam email charge, remailer user fees, file
>sharing networks (solving the free rider problem), pornography
>by the minute, and tips for videocam performers.

Patrick will soon have a configurable toolkit to create an "everyman an 
mint/underwriter" available soon.  Lucky has offered to provide offshore 
from U.S. hosting for test mint.


>Need some legal and profitable application to get the software
>fully developed, debugged, and people used to it.  When people
>are using it for dimes, they will want to start using it for
>large sums, and then things get interesting.  Dubai is
>currently the banker for people evading third world currency
>exchange restrictions.  Once it is working in the micropayment
>ghetto, where credit cards are uncompetitive, there will be
>demand to break out of that ghetto, and where there is demand,
>there will be supply.
>
>Of course there have been many attempts to fill the
>micropayment niche, all of them miserable failures.  I think
>this is due to the inherantly high costs of identity and
>revocability.  If your payments are revocable, then you need
>identity, which costs, and you get involved in arbitration,
>which costs, and you cannot possibly afford to do that on a
>micropayment service.
>
> > * In my view, not necessarily the view of everyone in the DM
> > community, the Big Win for solid DM is in illegal markets,
> > e.g., buying and selling child porn, bestiality, snuff
> > images, etc.
>
>Child porn and bestiality are, like MP3s, a micropayment
>market.  My hard drive keeps getting usenet child porn on it
>even though I try to prevent it.  I download what I think is a
>Hellsing cartoon, and guess what?   Among the many unviewed
>videos and images on my hard drive, there is probably enough
>child porn to put me away for fifty consecutive life sentences.
>My email spam is full of bestiality, even though I have
>numerous filtering rules designed to delete it.  Surprisingly,
>I do not think I have seen any snuff spam -- which does not
>mean I am not getting it, it may be filtered by my anti porn
>spam rules.
>
>Just target file sharing, a legal market, according to the most
>recent judicial ruling, and some significant proportion of the
>files shared are going to be child porn etc.  That is the users
>issue, not the banks.
>
> > * Anyone releasing such a strong DM system should be
> > targeting the high end applications, where the needs for
> > untraceability are very high and the willingess to pay the
> > costs (in training, in network resources) is also high.
>
>I disagree.  Micropayments are legal.  Useful if the same
>software has legal and illegal uses.   Strong anonymity and
>consequent irrevocability has accepted legal, moral, and
>economic purpose in the micropayment field.
>
> > * In my view, most who have looked to enter the DM market
> > (such as Digicash, Mark Twain Bank, etc.) have shied-away
> > from precisely the areas where untraceability meets a real
> > market need.
>
>Mark Twain bank crippled their cash so they could stop
>pornographers from using it.
>
> > A digital money system where the DM may be "cancelled" will
> > not fly. For various reasons.  (Imagine your bank telling you
> > that if they think you are violating their use policies they
> > may simply seize your money and you'll be out of luck.)
>
>Revocability.  The various digital gold currencies are
>compelled to have an AUP and seize the money of people using
>their system when this AUP is violated, even though they very
>much do not want to, because of the very high costs involved.
>
> > * It may be that pioneers in this area just won't be able to
> > make any money. This is not new. Many discoveries did not
> > enrich the discoverer. Sometimes they were recognized in
> > their lifetimes, sometimes not.
>
>No money then crap software, crap software then lack of
>critical mass of users.  Has to make money or no one will write
>software the ordinary end user will accept.
>
>     --digsig
>          James A. Donald
>      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
>      WeQL5KAm368l/BB5FhdV3HRZwi0tcIoVVHe9WyGK
>      4JEJhGr9vM1Becp1QdyRiI3U4tkF26wqs75DTGtQA

we do not win the terrorism battle / with
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atrocity / make way for war time opportunists / corporate interests and
their proxies / exploitation of a tragedy / to serve their ideologies /
corporate military complex / continues to abuse the world / death weapons
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