From a1_internet7231 at eudoramail.com  Mon Jul  1 10:20:11 2002
From: a1_internet7231 at eudoramail.com (Pro Marketing)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 01:20:11 -1600
Subject: NOW! Lose 10-12 Pounds in 2 DAYS! GUARANTEED!
Message-ID: <00007c1d6fd0$00006dc3$000075a4@mail.flashmail.com>

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From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  1 05:08:51 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 05:08:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Diffie-Hellman and MITM
In-Reply-To: <004101c22038$1ab76840$a36e9cd9@mark>
Message-ID: <20020701120851.22118.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

Thanx Mark, I was also wondering on the line of hash
functions too,me 2 dont see how it works securely.
Nor does the interlock protocol look secure to me.

Regards Data.



--- Marcel Popescu <mdpopescu at subdimension.com> wrote:
> From: "gfgs pedo" <jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com>
> 
> > One solution suggested against the man in the
> middle
> > attack is using the interlock protocol
> 
> This is the one I vaguely recalled, thank you.
> 
> > All mallory would have to do is send the half of
> the
> > (n th) packet when he receives the half of (n+1)th
> > packet since the 1 st packet was faked by mallory.
> 
> Interesting attack... assuming that a one-block
> delay doesn't look
> suspicious.
> 
> What if every message except the very first one has
> a hash of the previously
> received message?
> 
> A -> (M ->) B: half 1 of message A1
> B -> (M ->) A: half 1 of message B1 | hash (half 1
> of message A1)
> A -> (M ->) B: half 2 of message A1 | hash (half 1
> of message B1)
> B -> (M ->) A: half 2 of message B1 | hash (half 2
> of message A1)
> A -> (M ->) B: half 1 of message A2 | hash (half 2
> of message B1)
> ... and so on
> 
> Nah... won't work; since M captures A1 and B1, he
> can compute the hashes for
> both the initial bogus message and the (delayed)
> genuine ones. Same if they
> try hasing all the previous messages.
> 
> What if they send the hash of the *other* half? (The
> program splitting the
> messages already has the full ones.)
> 
> A -> (M ->) B: half 1 of message A1 | hash (half 2
> of message A1)
> B -> (M ->) A: half 1 of message B1 | hash (half 2
> of message B1)
> A -> (M ->) B: half 2 of message A1 | hash (half 1
> of message A1)
> B -> (M ->) A: half 2 of message B1 | hash (half 1
> of message B1)
> ... and so on
> 
> Nope, no good... M fakes the first message in both
> direction, and then he
> always has a good one, so he can compute the hashes.
> 
> The only thing that might, as far as I can see,
> succeed (with a high
> probability) would be for everyone to hash the
> *next* half - meaning that,
> together with half 2 of message N, there will be the
> hash of half one of
> message N + 1. However, I don't see how this would
> be possible for an
> interactive communication...
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com




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From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (Insight on the News)
Date: 01 Jul 2002 08:51:06 -0400
Subject: Insight on the News Email Edition
Message-ID: <200207010851925.SM00688@broadbandpublisher.com>


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From barney at tp.databus.com  Mon Jul  1 06:05:08 2002
From: barney at tp.databus.com (Barney Wolff)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:05:08 -0400
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <3D2030E8.2090204@algroup.co.uk>; from ben@algroup.co.uk on
  Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 11:37:28AM +0100
References: <20020630020807.A45745@tp.databus.com>
  <Pine.LNX.4.40.0206300837130.18230-100000@newbolt.sonic.net>
  <20020630141049.A54229@tp.databus.com> <3D1F8EE6.40209@algroup.co.uk>
  <p05111a45b9456363a904@[66.149.49.6]> <3D2030E8.2090204@algroup.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020701090508.A62154@tp.databus.com>


My use of "anonym" was a joke.  Sorry if it was too deadpan.  But
my serious point was that if a pseudonym costs nothing to get or
give up, it makes one effectively anonymous, if one so chooses.

On Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 11:37:28AM +0100, Ben Laurie wrote:
> R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> > At 12:06 AM +0100 on 7/1/02, Ben Laurie wrote:
> >>No, a pseudonym can be linked to stuff (such as reputation,
> >>publications, money). An anonym cannot.
> > 
> > More to the point, there is no such "thing" as an "anonym", by definition.
> 
> Hmm. So present the appropriate definition?

-- 
Barney Wolff
I never met a computer I didn't like.




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  1 07:01:40 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:01:40 -0400
Subject: Anonyms, Pseudonyms, and Fists (was Re: Ross's TCPA paper)
In-Reply-To: <3D2030E8.2090204@algroup.co.uk>
References: <20020630020807.A45745@tp.databus.com>   
  <Pine.LNX.4.40.0206300837130.18230-100000@newbolt.sonic.net>  
  <20020630141049.A54229@tp.databus.com> <3D1F8EE6.40209@algroup.co.uk> 
  <p05111a45b9456363a904@[66.149.49.6]> <3D2030E8.2090204@algroup.co.uk>
Message-ID: <p05111a56b945fd5abe9d@[66.149.49.6]>

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From ben at algroup.co.uk  Mon Jul  1 03:37:28 2002
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:37:28 +0100
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
References: <20020630020807.A45745@tp.databus.com>  
  <Pine.LNX.4.40.0206300837130.18230-100000@newbolt.sonic.net> 
  <20020630141049.A54229@tp.databus.com> <3D1F8EE6.40209@algroup.co.uk>
  <p05111a45b9456363a904@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <3D2030E8.2090204@algroup.co.uk>


R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> At 12:06 AM +0100 on 7/1/02, Ben Laurie wrote:
>>No, a pseudonym can be linked to stuff (such as reputation,
>>publications, money). An anonym cannot.
> 
> More to the point, there is no such "thing" as an "anonym", by definition.

Hmm. So present the appropriate definition?

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html       http://www.thebunker.net/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From mv at cdc.gov  Mon Jul  1 11:41:51 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:41:51 -0700
Subject: on 'evil' as an abbreviation (Re: maximize best case, worst
  case, or  average case?)
Message-ID: <3D20A26F.6F41EED@cdc.gov>


At 07:25 PM 6/30/02 -0500, xganon wrote:
>Ryan Lackey provides a detailed analysis, but he gets off to a bad
start
>right at the beginning:
>
>> DRM systems embedded in general purpose computers, especially if
>> mandated, especially if implemented in the most secure practical
>> manner (running the system in system-high DRM mode and not allowing
>> raw hardware access to anything at any time on the platform...are
evil.
>
>So DRM systems are evil?  Why?  What makes them evil?  There is no
>justification offered for this claim!  Are we all supposed to accept it

>as obvious?

Evil = bad = counter to our goals.  One of our goals is to have
general-purpose
computers widely available.  A DRM layer between us and the hardware
is counter to that goal, ergo, undesirable from this perspective.

Its like a governor in a car.  Do you want one in yours?   Are you
willing
to pay for the decreased driving flexibility and decreased reliability
(extra parts,
after all) of your car?  What makes you think you can require one in
mine?


Speaking only for myself




From sly11111111111 at netscape.net  Mon Jul  1 14:54:46 2002
From: sly11111111111 at netscape.net (Ink Special)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:54:46 -0700
Subject: Time to Replace your Ink Cartridges
Message-ID: <200207012010.PAA06568@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Jul  1 15:05:11 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:05:11 -0700
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
In-Reply-To: <1a7f898529d17c6edd1ffdb2830feb76@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <3D206FA7.1830.661E9D9@localhost>


    --
On 1 Jul 2002 at 22:10, Anonymous wrote:
> The fact is that the market can't solve this kind of problem.
> That's right, markets are not perfect.  [....]  But information
> objects, absent successful DRM restrictions, are effectively
> public goods. Markets do not handle public goods well.  It is a
> standard theorem of economics that they underprovide public
> goods.

Unfortunately, good government is also a public good, and so tends
to be underprovided -- observe the current patent disaster, which
obviously is retarding, rather than advancing, the development of
technology.

Our current patent and copyright laws show that government is in
the pocket of content owners, rather than fostering content
creators.

Voluntary, genuinely free market DRM, is like voluntary, free
market, gas chambers.  If free market gas chambers remain free
market, they will probably only be used for killing lice, but
chances are they are not going to remain free market, since their
nature makes them more appropriate to a governmental purpose than
a private purpose.   In fact, if created, DRM will already be
subject to our infamous anti circumvention laws, which means that
the necessary legislation to make them involuntary and non free
market is already in place in advance.

> This is the true alternative to DRM.  Anyone who respects the
> power of markets should understand that DRM is the key to
> allowing markets to function with information goods.

Palladium is a module on your computer with its own private key
and certified public key.  Its capacity is to say  "I certify that
the output with this hash was produced by the code with this hash
from inputs with that hash".   Nothing wrong with that.  But we
are already hearing Microsoft say "well naturally governments have
security concerns ...."

If Palladium is a gun for me, fine.  If it is a gun for my
government, and not me, not fine.   Trouble is the people backing
palladium are the people who brought us anti circumvention laws,
the people who want guns for themselves, and no guns for me. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     uQgMm/3E4nYxuwkWrA2I281ui9Z8pFN4zJ9pQPX1
     2uxQytiBkOD9AWSbzzbDk8Yl0l46vUsa3ySfrb8A9




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  1 15:06:38 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:06:38 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <f7857a73e9af7c700f138d18f6b7755e@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <D0C54686-8D3E-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, July 1, 2002, at 02:23  PM, Anonymous wrote:

> [Repost]
>
> Bear writes:
>
>> A few years ago merchants were equally adamant and believed
>> equally in the rightness of maintaining their "right" to not
>> do business with blacks, chicanos, irish, and women.  It'll
>> pass as people wake up and smell the coffee.  Unfortunately
>> that won't be until after at least a decade of really vicious
>> abuses of private data by merchants who believe in their
>> god-given right to snoop on their customers.
>
> My God, how low the cypherpunk list has sunk.  Here we have someone
> not only demanding that merchants be forced to deal with pseudonymous
> customers, he invokes civil rights laws to support his argument!
>
> Where's Tim May when we need him?

I'm right here. But you have missed something very important: "Bear" did 
not write that article for the _Cypherpunks_ list. It was one of many 
articles cross-posted between the _Cryptography_ list and the 
_Cypherpunks_ list and even some of Hettinga's many lists.

Here are the headers:


From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Jul  1 12:21:59 2002
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:21:59 -0400 (edt)
Subject: Piracy is wrong
In-Reply-To: <3D1F9B2B.BB4965C0@storm.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207011520020.8586-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>


On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Sandy Harris wrote:

> The companies involved have no more right to prevent such use than
> I have to sell copies of their book or film on the street corner.

Speaking of Scum, (not to pull a choate, but)

http://www.theregus.com/content/4/25435.html

MS security patch EULA gives Billg admin privileges on your box
By Thomas C Greene in Washington
Posted: 06/30/2002 at 01:05 EST

<SNIP>

You agree that in order to protect the integrity of content and software
protected by digital rights management ('Secure Content'), Microsoft may
provide security related updates to the OS Components that will be
automatically downloaded onto your computer. These security related
updates may disable your ability to copy and/or play Secure Content and
use other software on your computer. 

<SNIP>


So there you have it.




From Rem-UnimatrixCapital at inbox.lv  Mon Jul  1 15:09:29 2002
From: Rem-UnimatrixCapital at inbox.lv (Dan Nunan)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:09:29 -0600
Subject: Obtain a Potential $5,000 per bank account you open                  ----------------------- jfm
Message-ID: <200206282209.g5SM6akf031723@ak47.algebra.com>


Hello,

My name is Dan...

Let me start by telling you a little bit about myself in the
hopes that you will join me.


For 21 Years I worked for IBM. Back in 1996 I left IBM and
found a way to use the U.S. Banking System to my
advantage.


My wife and I, and two dogs, live on a $2,000,000+ Ranch.


Unimatrix Capital has a 6 Page Blueprint that can allow
motivated people to potentially put $5,000 into each bank
account they open, each and every month.


This is not a get rich quick scheme and it does take some
effort.   We are in good standing with the Better Business
Bureau.   This is in no way a scam.


This is NOT a multi-level-marketing or pyramid scheme. It
takes very, very little money to get started. It does NOT involve
selling any products. It does NOT involve buying homes with
no money down. It does NOT involve investments. It does NOT
require that you to work at it full time.


We will be sending you a detailed 6 page "Blueprint" of what
to do. So that we may share with you our discovery, We're
going to ask you to take the first step and invest $20 for
something we feel can be a life changing investment.


If you are NOT satisfied with the information Unimatrix
Capital has sent you, we will refund the entire $20. Simply
return the information provided. Yes, this is a 100% money
back guarantee.



Yours truly,

Dan Nunan
Unimatrix Capital LLC

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please cut along dotted line and mail this bottom portion to us


O.K. Dan you're on! I want it! Rush me my copy of the 
6 page Blueprint, but only on the condition I can return if
I am not satisfied. There is no possible way I can lose. On
those terms, here is my $20.


Your Name: _____________________________________________

Address: _____________________________________________

City: ___________________________

State: ___________________________

Zip Code: ______________

Email Address: ___________________________________


Please make out check or money order to "Unimatrix Capital LLC"

Please make $20 payment to:

Unimatrix Capital LLC
1903 S. Greeley Hwy. Ste 272
Cheyenne, WY 82007


This offer is only for residents of the United States. If you
want it mailed to an address outside the United States
please add $10.


Privacy Policy: Information provided, such as your name,
address and email will be held strictly confidential and
not shared with anyone.


To be removed from our email list please REPLY to this message with
REMOVE in the subject line.












02


lsconjxxiaopoeqfbrrfkpe




From Rem-UnimatrixCapital at inbox.lv  Mon Jul  1 15:18:35 2002
From: Rem-UnimatrixCapital at inbox.lv (Dan Nunan)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:18:35 -0600
Subject: Obtain a Potential $5,000 per bank account you open                  ----------------------- sko
Message-ID: <200206282226.RAA31797@einstein.ssz.com>


Hello,

My name is Dan...

Let me start by telling you a little bit about myself in the
hopes that you will join me.


For 21 Years I worked for IBM. Back in 1996 I left IBM and
found a way to use the U.S. Banking System to my
advantage.


My wife and I, and two dogs, live on a $2,000,000+ Ranch.


Unimatrix Capital has a 6 Page Blueprint that can allow
motivated people to potentially put $5,000 into each bank
account they open, each and every month.


This is not a get rich quick scheme and it does take some
effort.   We are in good standing with the Better Business
Bureau.   This is in no way a scam.


This is NOT a multi-level-marketing or pyramid scheme. It
takes very, very little money to get started. It does NOT involve
selling any products. It does NOT involve buying homes with
no money down. It does NOT involve investments. It does NOT
require that you to work at it full time.


We will be sending you a detailed 6 page "Blueprint" of what
to do. So that we may share with you our discovery, We're
going to ask you to take the first step and invest $20 for
something we feel can be a life changing investment.


If you are NOT satisfied with the information Unimatrix
Capital has sent you, we will refund the entire $20. Simply
return the information provided. Yes, this is a 100% money
back guarantee.



Yours truly,

Dan Nunan
Unimatrix Capital LLC

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please cut along dotted line and mail this bottom portion to us


O.K. Dan you're on! I want it! Rush me my copy of the 
6 page Blueprint, but only on the condition I can return if
I am not satisfied. There is no possible way I can lose. On
those terms, here is my $20.


Your Name: _____________________________________________

Address: _____________________________________________

City: ___________________________

State: ___________________________

Zip Code: ______________

Email Address: ___________________________________


Please make out check or money order to "Unimatrix Capital LLC"

Please make $20 payment to:

Unimatrix Capital LLC
1903 S. Greeley Hwy. Ste 272
Cheyenne, WY 82007


This offer is only for residents of the United States. If you
want it mailed to an address outside the United States
please add $10.


Privacy Policy: Information provided, such as your name,
address and email will be held strictly confidential and
not shared with anyone.


To be removed from our email list please REPLY to this message with
REMOVE in the subject line.












02


efxqmuhlobfgpiribbkxpppviuvcvmnqoyfco




From mv at cdc.gov  Mon Jul  1 16:32:45 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:32:45 -0700
Subject: Publishers sue over pop-up ads
Message-ID: <3D20E69D.F588E95F@cdc.gov>


[similarity to 'prohibitions' on deep-linking and general censorship?]

Publishers sue over pop-up ads

NEW YORK (AP) -- Complaining of
parasitical behavior, some of the
nation's largest news publishers are
suing Internet advertising company
Gator Corp. over software that
triggers pop-up ads when surfers
visit their Web sites.
<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/07/01/online.ads.ap/index.html




From ben at algroup.co.uk  Mon Jul  1 08:54:50 2002
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:54:50 +0100
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
References: <20020630020807.A45745@tp.databus.com>
  <Pine.LNX.4.40.0206300837130.18230-100000@newbolt.sonic.net>
  <20020630141049.A54229@tp.databus.com> <3D1F8EE6.40209@algroup.co.uk>
  <p05111a45b9456363a904@[66.149.49.6]> <3D2030E8.2090204@algroup.co.uk>
  <20020701090508.A62154@tp.databus.com>
Message-ID: <3D207B4A.4050808@algroup.co.uk>


Barney Wolff wrote:
> My use of "anonym" was a joke.  Sorry if it was too deadpan.  But
> my serious point was that if a pseudonym costs nothing to get or
> give up, it makes one effectively anonymous, if one so chooses.

Well, yeah, I'd say that single-use pseudonyms are, in fact, the 
definition of anonyms.

Zero cost is not required, of course, except to make anonymity, err, 
zero cost.

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html       http://www.thebunker.net/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Jul  1 17:58:59 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:58:59 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <D0C54686-8D3E-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <f7857a73e9af7c700f138d18f6b7755e@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <3D209863.8555.70109D8@localhost>


    --
On 1 Jul 2002 at 15:06, Tim May wrote:
> I have strong views on all this DRM and TCPA stuff, and 
> especially on the claim that some form of DRM is needed to 
> prevent government from taking over control of the "arts."
>
> But we said everything that needed to be said _years_ ago. No 
> point in repeating the same points.

No, it does need to be said again.

You cannot merely do a copy and paste from the cyphernomicon.  You 
will find it necessary a copy and paste from the cyphernomicon 
followed by several global search and replaces and a small amount 
of new material referring to current events.

Palladium, as described by Microsoft, is actually a pretty cool 
idea that would be useful for quite a few cypherpunkly projects.

When Microsoft gave its description of Palladium, there were a few 
caveats and maybes that to me sounded as if they were saying "Well 
our hearts are in the right place, this is the way it will be if 
only it was not going to be the way that it actually is going to 
be".

Unfortunately it is being introduced at the same time as there is 
legislation proposed, the SSSCA, to outlaw general purpose 
computers, turning them into set top boxes, and license software 
engineers, so that only a small number of specially privileged 
people will be permitted access to general purpose computers. This 
timing creates a reasonable suspicion that Palladium is in fact a 
stalking horse for that project, a preparation for a slightly more 
acceptable variant of the SSSCA. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     jJb9+mkN3R59T+7qqwbaNl6DlnXtC7susSRKhpeg
     2XCDBLPYrZ4/b3EazgN2sjfbch9lCok9wmcWkHl6X




From gabe at seul.org  Mon Jul  1 15:32:03 2002
From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:32:03 -0400
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
In-Reply-To: <1a7f898529d17c6edd1ffdb2830feb76@remailer.privacy.at>;
  from nobody@remailer.privacy.at on Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:10:05PM
  +0200
References: <1a7f898529d17c6edd1ffdb2830feb76@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <20020701183203.A32128@seul.org>


		On Mon, Jul 01, at 10:10PM, Anonymous wrote:
| Brilliant.  Let the market solve the problem.  Why bother with the auction
| part, then?  If the market's going to solve the problem for the 2nd guy
| to hold the copy, why not let it solve the problem for the 1st?  The fact
| is, quoting this mantra is simply a way of avoiding the hard issues.
| You've got to show *how* the market is going to solve the problem.
| Why would content creators get "a lot of money, cash"?  Obviously, only
| if your #2 guy knows that he is also going to get a lot of money for it.
| So you haven't taken a step towards solving the problem; you have simply
| handed the problem off from #1 to #2.

Actually, this is not a question for the individual person, rather a
rhetorical question. Did anyone know how much television would change
the radio industry? In fact, for the first several years after its
inception, TV was a money losing business. The question of *how* doesn't
need to be answered now (this is a proverbial "now" which actually means
ever or "for a long time to come.") In fact, we have these problems now
and they don't seem to retard the economy in any way, rare anythings
pose this problem everyday. In fact, relative values pose this "problem"
everyday. Ever hear  "One man's trash is another man's treasure"?

| The fact is that the market can't solve this kind of problem.  That's
| right, markets are not perfect.  They do fine for ordinary, private
| goods.  But information objects, absent successful DRM restrictions,
| are effectively public goods.  That is, you can't restrict their
| dissemination.  If you try to provide such goods only to a small group
| of people, you've effectively given them to everyone.

Well, since markets are made up of individual people going about their
business to create the market as a whole, I don't see any problems with
this whatsoever. Joe Musician knows that this is the way music works. In
the olden days, people copied music from one another by word of mouth
over and over, songs were "stolen" by musicians and played for other
audiences. The musical business wasn't the joke that it is today. Back
then, it was accepted that music is sound and sound, well, can be
repeated, if not by a recording on a cassette or cd, then by voice. It
isn't a market problem that some people don't get their way. Nor is it a
good idea to have the government dictate who gets what in a free and
willing exchange scenario. Joe Musician does not have to play his music
or "give it" to anyone (imagine the hoopla when someone records a live
show) he does so willingly and of his own free will. Are we to accept
that because he doesn't feel he gets enough for his music that we should
bank the cost of having it mandated that we pay Joe? If he doesn't get
enough for his music, he is free to NOT release it, DON'T publish the
damn thing and stop bitching. I mock those who present reports showing
that the market didn't correspond to previously created models. Markets
aren't wrong folks, the models are.

| This idea of digital content as a public good is developed in detail at
| http://www.tidbits.com/tb-issues/TidBITS-602.html#lnk5.
 
| Markets do not handle public goods well. 

Markets are people, people don't handle public goods well. Perhaps
because people as a whole see the inpracticality of restricting access
to goods that are, well, public. Maybe there is a lesson to be learned
there somewhere.

| Kelsey and Schneier's Street Performer protocol don't work because of 
| free riders.

This is interesting. Just about every system in the world has free
riders. This country has "free riders" that are tax-evaders, car
thieves, you name it the standard, society has someone who doesn't abide
by it. That does not in any way make a system "broken." That the system
has flaws is to be expected, unless he who designed the system doesn't
recognize basic human mistakes. Systems with free riders are not
necessarily broken systems, nor are systems without free riders
necessarily working ones.

| The traditional way to provide for public goods is by government.
| If we don't get DRM, that's probably what we will end up with: government
| subsidies of the arts.  Most musicians and other artists won't be able to
| make enough money to live on even if their works are relatively popular.
| The government will have to tax consumers and distribute the proceeds
| to artists (and the RIAA, etc) in order to protect the content industry.

There is no "content industry" in the tradional market sense. Such an
industry is a fiction created by government exerting control far and
beyond the original intent of government itself. It is proposterous that
because a small group of people cannot get what they want by free
association, they manage to get what they want by manipulating the law
to their benefit. Don't get me wrong, there is a market for content and
music, as long as someone puts a subjective value to a song, there will
be a content market, likewise for weapons and anything the government
deems itself fit to regulate and control, but by and far, that isn't the
"real market" for it does not constitute free association. 

| This is the true alternative to DRM.  Anyone who respects the power of
| markets should understand that DRM is the key to allowing markets to
| function with information goods.  If you oppose DRM, you are working
| to insure that creative content will become a public good.  And if you
| understand econmics, you will see that this is an outcome to be avoided
| if at all possible.

The alternative to DRM for whom? The folks who don't like the way things
are now (read: don't make as much money as they feel they should?)
Musicians out there don't have to "release" (the term itself should give
a clue to those who wish to perform the act on what its implications
are) their music. The true alternative to DRM is for people to "wake up
and smell the coffee." I will gladly make a bet on the fact that
government control on any market is not a good thing for the whole of
society. DRM, in a government mandated form will do nothing but remove
freedoms, however basic they may be. If you understand economics, you
will see that the loss of choice is in fact THE outcome that must be
avoided at all costs, not just if at all possible.




From ashwood at msn.com  Mon Jul  1 18:46:29 2002
From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:46:29 -0700
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
References: <4f956779a6099a62aab5329aa077ac95@xganon.com> <20020701023119.GA29081@havenco.com>
Message-ID: <029601c2216b$33733240$6501a8c0@josephas>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Lackey" <ryan at havenco.com>

> I consider DRM systems (even the not-secure, not-mandated versions)
> evil due to the high likelyhood they will be used as technical
> building blocks upon which to deploy mandated, draconian DRM systems.

The same argument can be applied to just about any tool.

A knife has a high likelihood of being used in such a manner that it causes
physical damage to an individual (e.g. you cut yourself while slicing your
dinner) at some point in its useful lifetime. Do we declare knives evil?

A hammer has a high likelihood of at some point in its useful life causing
physical damage to both an individual and property. Do we declare hammers
evil?

DRM is a tool. Tools can be used for good, and tools can be used for evil,
but that does not make a tool inherently good or evil. DRM has a place where
it is a suitable tool, but one should not declare a tool evil simply because
an individual or group uses the tool for purposes that have been declared
evil.
                        Joe




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 19:15:10 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:15:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <3D209863.8555.70109D8@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207011901200.27736-100000@eskimo.com>


On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 1 Jul 2002 at 15:06, Tim May wrote:
> > I have strong views on all this DRM and TCPA stuff, and
> > especially on the claim that some form of DRM is needed to
> > prevent government from taking over control of the "arts."
> >
> > But we said everything that needed to be said _years_ ago. No
> > point in repeating the same points.
>
> No, it does need to be said again.

I agree it needs to be said over and over again.  But for a different
reason.

There are always new people to teach.  New kids born every day,
who don't have the history, nor any clue that there *is* a history.
Old folks who never pain any attention before because it didn't
concern them, but now it does.

I would be willing to bet the ancient Greeks argued about many of the same
things we do now, and in much the same way.  The time scale has changed,
but the basic ethics hasn't.

> Unfortunately it is being introduced at the same time as there is
> legislation proposed, the SSSCA, to outlaw general purpose
> computers, turning them into set top boxes, and license software
> engineers, so that only a small number of specially privileged
> people will be permitted access to general purpose computers. This
> timing creates a reasonable suspicion that Palladium is in fact a
> stalking horse for that project, a preparation for a slightly more
> acceptable variant of the SSSCA.

I'm not so paranoid.  Somebody will point out that the US can't license
all the software engineers in India (and vice versa).  If they want us
all to buy set-top-boxes, or hdtv's with built in encryption, they can
set up the transmission towers and pay the FCC for the broadcast channels
and just pump out all the crap they want.  Everybody who's just gotta have
the latest DVD can sight right up for it.  The rest of us can ignore the
whole mess and use our computers the way we want to.

A few will be able to tap into the hdtv plaintext and pipe it over to the
net.  They'll get caught eventually and have to deal with concequences.
It doesn't take any new laws to make it happen, but it does take a lot of
up front cash.  And I think that's what is bugging the "content
providers".   They can't just jump on the bandwaggon.  They need to build
new distribution networks, that they can control.  Fine, let them!  But
don't make me have to join in.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  1 16:20:36 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:20:36 -0400
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
In-Reply-To: <1a7f898529d17c6edd1ffdb2830feb76@remailer.privacy.at>
References: <1a7f898529d17c6edd1ffdb2830feb76@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <p05111aa1b94691777517@[66.149.49.6]>

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From Mailer-Daemon at atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net  Mon Jul  1 19:53:37 2002
From: Mailer-Daemon at atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net (Mail Delivery System)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:53:37 -0700
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
Message-ID: <E17PDnN-000519-00@atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net>


This message was created automatically by mail delivery software (Exim).

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
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------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------


From al at qaeda.org  Mon Jul  1 20:06:28 2002
From: al at qaeda.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithym)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 20:06:28 -0700
Subject: biometric containment (privacy, fingerprints, dead utah
  blondes)
Message-ID: <3D2118B4.822F0341@qaeda.org>


So the neighbors of that dead blonde Utah jailbait volunteered their
fingerprints, presumably for discounting them, though possibly not.
In any case: how could a neighbor-friendly cypherpunk give
prints which were *not* entered into the Fed Oracle?

Only way I can think of is to physically control your deadtree print
sheet
and require the Feebs to manually enter the dozen topo-feature-locations

of your print from a memoryless measuring device, (eg, a glass lens and
reticle) in front of you, then take the print sheet with you.  How you
verify
that the imaging system is memoryless is up to you.

Comments?




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Jul  1 12:30:10 2002
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon,  1 Jul 2002 21:30:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: on 'evil' as an abbreviation
Message-ID: <166eb09148c72a19fc48b0b9803447cf@dizum.com>


> Evil = bad = counter to our goals.  One of our goals is to have
> general-purpose computers widely available.  A DRM layer between us
> and the hardware is counter to that goal, ergo, undesirable from this
> perspective.
>
> Its like a governor in a car.  Do you want one in yours?   Are you willing
> to pay for the decreased driving flexibility and decreased reliability
> (extra parts, after all) of your car?

Sure, I might put a governor in my car if it would lower my insurance
rates.  And I might use a DRM system if it let me download music and
video that I wanted, while remaining compliant with the creators' wishes.

> What makes you think you can require one in mine?

We're talking about voluntary systems here.  Ryan said that DRM was
evil even if voluntary.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  1 21:31:38 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:31:38 -0700
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
In-Reply-To: <3D209863.8555.70109D8@localhost>
Message-ID: <99DF01D6-8D74-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, July 1, 2002, at 05:58  PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 1 Jul 2002 at 15:06, Tim May wrote:
>> I have strong views on all this DRM and TCPA stuff, and
>> especially on the claim that some form of DRM is needed to
>> prevent government from taking over control of the "arts."
>>
>> But we said everything that needed to be said _years_ ago. No
>> point in repeating the same points.
>
> No, it does need to be said again.
>
> You cannot merely do a copy and paste from the cyphernomicon.  You
> will find it necessary a copy and paste from the cyphernomicon
> followed by several global search and replaces and a small amount
> of new material referring to current events.

I didn't say my views on Palladium and TCPA/DRM are already contained in 
an 8-9-year-old document, only that the ground is well-trod. Especially 
the ground involving voluntary vs. mandatory, Brin's ideas, and the 
"policeman inside" notion that if we don't install DRM Big Brother will 
have to do it for us.

I don't try to discourage others, but I have better things to do with my 
time than to argue futilely with statists who are not even reading my 
stuff! (Many of them are cross-posting in from Perrypunks, so my replies 
are unseen by them.)


>
> Palladium, as described by Microsoft, is actually a pretty cool
> idea that would be useful for quite a few cypherpunkly projects.

Probably _not_, for the very reason Palladium will fail: a plethora of 
extant systems which people will not scrap just so they can watch "The 
Fast and the Furious."

> Unfortunately it is being introduced at the same time as there is
> legislation proposed, the SSSCA, to outlaw general purpose
> computers

Anyone who believes this, or even repeats it as a rumor, is on drugs.

I have half a dozen computers, all usable in various ways. Not even in a 
Chinese-type police state could these legally-acquired computers, 
acquired for a lot of money, be declared "outlawed."

Not even counting your computers, and my computers, and 500 million 
computers already out in the U.S. alone, there are the designs of 
processors like Pentium 4, Athlon, McKinley, Thoroughbred, Duron, etc., 
_none_ of which are of this Valenti-friendly TCPA form. None of the 
hundreds of millions of systems now being prepared for sale are of this 
form. Saying that general purpose computers lacking TCPA/DRM will be 
"outlawed" is silly.

--Tim May


--Tim May
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a 
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also 
into you." -- Nietzsche




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  1 21:35:09 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:35:09 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207011901200.27736-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <17ABFD94-8D75-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, July 1, 2002, at 07:15  PM, Mike Rosing wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>
>>     --
>> On 1 Jul 2002 at 15:06, Tim May wrote:
>>> I have strong views on all this DRM and TCPA stuff, and
>>> especially on the claim that some form of DRM is needed to
>>> prevent government from taking over control of the "arts."
>>>
>>> But we said everything that needed to be said _years_ ago. No
>>> point in repeating the same points.
>>
>> No, it does need to be said again.
>
> I agree it needs to be said over and over again.  But for a different
> reason.
>
> There are always new people to teach.  New kids born every day,
> who don't have the history, nor any clue that there *is* a history.
> Old folks who never pain any attention before because it didn't
> concern them, but now it does.
>
> I would be willing to bet the ancient Greeks argued about many of the 
> same
> things we do now, and in much the same way.  The time scale has changed,
> but the basic ethics hasn't.

Then say it. I'm not stopping you.

I explained why _I've_ already said it several dozen times, not why you 
or others shouldn't.

(Helpful advice: Realize that those to whom it needs to be said won't be 
listening to you and that those who are listening don't need to hear it 
for the fifth time. And realize that crossposters from Perrypunks are 
not interested.)


--Tim May
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From cypherpunks at algebra.com  Mon Jul  1 19:05:03 2002
From: cypherpunks at algebra.com (cypherpunks at algebra.com)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:05:03 -0400
Subject: with penetration. Some of the more common aversive stimuli are traumatic sexual
Message-ID: <E17PDeJ-0001Q0-00@atlantic.mail.pas.earthlink.net>

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From cypherpunks at algebra.com  Mon Jul  1 19:05:03 2002
From: cypherpunks at algebra.com (cypherpunks at algebra.com)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:05:03 -0400
Subject: with penetration. Some of the more common aversive stimuli are traumatic sexual
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From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Mon Jul  1 13:10:05 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Mon,  1 Jul 2002 22:10:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
Message-ID: <1a7f898529d17c6edd1ffdb2830feb76@remailer.privacy.at>


Robert Hettinga writes:

> All they have to do is auction the first copy off for a lot of money, cash,
> and let the market take care of the rest. That, by the way, is what people
> do now, of course, with advances, record contracts, and so on.

Brilliant.  Let the market solve the problem.  Why bother with the auction
part, then?  If the market's going to solve the problem for the 2nd guy
to hold the copy, why not let it solve the problem for the 1st?  The fact
is, quoting this mantra is simply a way of avoiding the hard issues.
You've got to show *how* the market is going to solve the problem.
Why would content creators get "a lot of money, cash"?  Obviously, only
if your #2 guy knows that he is also going to get a lot of money for it.
So you haven't taken a step towards solving the problem; you have simply
handed the problem off from #1 to #2.

The fact is that the market can't solve this kind of problem.  That's
right, markets are not perfect.  They do fine for ordinary, private
goods.  But information objects, absent successful DRM restrictions,
are effectively public goods.  That is, you can't restrict their
dissemination.  If you try to provide such goods only to a small group
of people, you've effectively given them to everyone.

This idea of digital content as a public good is developed in detail at
http://www.tidbits.com/tb-issues/TidBITS-602.html#lnk5.

Markets do not handle public goods well.  It is a standard theorem of
economics that they underprovide public goods.  There is no way to charge
for goods that everyone can get for free, and ideas like Kelsey and
Schneier's Street Performer protocol don't work because of free riders.

The traditional way to provide for public goods is by government.
If we don't get DRM, that's probably what we will end up with: government
subsidies of the arts.  Most musicians and other artists won't be able to
make enough money to live on even if their works are relatively popular.
The government will have to tax consumers and distribute the proceeds
to artists (and the RIAA, etc) in order to protect the content industry.

This is the true alternative to DRM.  Anyone who respects the power of
markets should understand that DRM is the key to allowing markets to
function with information goods.  If you oppose DRM, you are working
to insure that creative content will become a public good.  And if you
understand econmics, you will see that this is an outcome to be avoided
if at all possible.




From info at americandebtsettlement.com  Mon Jul  1 22:20:37 2002
From: info at americandebtsettlement.com (info at americandebtsettlement.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:20:37 -0700
Subject: MAKE 40%-60% ON YOUR DEBT!
Message-ID: <200207020518.g625IaeR023557@ak47.algebra.com>

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From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  1 20:16:48 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:16:48 -0400
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
In-Reply-To: <029601c2216b$33733240$6501a8c0@josephas>
References: <4f956779a6099a62aab5329aa077ac95@xganon.com>
 <20020701023119.GA29081@havenco.com>
 <029601c2216b$33733240$6501a8c0@josephas>
Message-ID: <p05111ab1b946ca16ba51@[66.149.49.6]>


At 6:46 PM -0700 on 7/1/02, Joseph Ashwood wrote:


> DRM is a tool.

I agree. And I don't think any tool is evil, either, and, I bet, Ryan
probably doesn't want to come across as a hoplophobe as you're depiction of
his calling a particular technology evil makes him sound either. :-).

That said, there are *useless* tools, and I think that most DRM stuff --
except where it is used merely to authenticate content, which you can do
with the eventual equivalent of an iButton -- will turn out to be a very
*useless* tool. Something on the order of a dirigible, maybe, or an
autogyro, or a coal-fired steam-powered car, or a gilt-edged intaglio
printed industrial bearer bond. Entertaining, and evangelized by a few,
heh, fanatic supporters, :-), but not used for much else.

Cheers,
RAH


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Mon Jul  1 14:23:10 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Mon,  1 Jul 2002 23:23:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
Message-ID: <f7857a73e9af7c700f138d18f6b7755e@remailer.privacy.at>


[Repost]

Bear writes:

> A few years ago merchants were equally adamant and believed
> equally in the rightness of maintaining their "right" to not
> do business with blacks, chicanos, irish, and women.  It'll
> pass as people wake up and smell the coffee.  Unfortunately
> that won't be until after at least a decade of really vicious
> abuses of private data by merchants who believe in their
> god-given right to snoop on their customers.

My God, how low the cypherpunk list has sunk.  Here we have someone
not only demanding that merchants be forced to deal with pseudonymous
customers, he invokes civil rights laws to support his argument!

Where's Tim May when we need him?  His racism is odious but at least
he's not trying to force other people to follow his beliefs.  I'm sure
he'd have a thing or two to say about our wonderful civil rights laws
and Bear's proposal to extend similar regulations to cyberspace.

Here's a clue, Mr. Bear.  The cypherpunks list was founded on the
principle that cyberspace can enhance freedom, and that includes freedom
to associate with whomever you choose.  Racism is evil, but the solution
must lie in people's hearts.  Pointing a gun at them and forcing them
to act in a politically correct manner (which is what civil rights
regulations really do) is no solution to the problem.

> So yeah, I think that the right to privacy implies the right to
> use a pseudonym.  For any non-fraudulent purpose, including
> doing business with merchants who don't know it's a pseudonym.
>
> And I think that's a constitutional right, whether the merchants
> happen to like it or not...

And of course any reference to the constitution betrays utter cluelessness
when talking on an international mailing list about technology which
spans national borders.  Unless you are prepared to be bound by the
Iraqi constitution, Mr. Bear, don't ask us to be governed by yours.




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  1 20:24:39 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:24:39 -0400
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
In-Reply-To: <a6b004914175778f4ea04ce035b9d422@remailer.privacy.at>
References: <a6b004914175778f4ea04ce035b9d422@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <p05111ab4b946cbeb285e@[66.149.49.6]>


At 4:02 AM +0200 on 7/2/02, AAA, the Annoying Anonymous Austrian wrote:


> But you claimed that signed pieces of digital information were private
> goods.  Please explain.


If it's encrypted, and it's on my hard drive, than it's my property. I own
it, not someone else. That's a private good. I can turn around, and sell it
to you. You can encrypt it, and put it on your hard drive, and you can sell
it. It's *your* property.

The same can be said for time-on-channel bandwidth, or rented computational
cycles, or anything else, up to, and including custom-ordered "output" like
professional opinion.

For the most part, except for custom professional opinions that are to
specific to be worth much to anyone else, we're talking about public
property exchanged over a public internetwork. Private goods.

Go read some more econ and finance, starting with, say, Coase, and ending
with a decent corporate finance textbook, and come back when you have
something useful to say instead of spouting collectivist pseudo-economics,
please.

In the meantime, read my .sig, below, and take it to heart.

Cheers,
RAH



-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"Externalities are the last refuge of the derigistes." -- Friedrich Hayek




From do6loms1c08 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul  2 12:16:31 2002
From: do6loms1c08 at hotmail.com (Lauren)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:16:31 -1900
Subject: Get Instant Term Life Quotes for FREE...               U
Message-ID: <00003dcb6feb$000022f6$00001cca@mx09.hotmail.com>

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From MAILER-DAEMON at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  1 23:10:58 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at yahoo.com (MAILER-DAEMON at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 01:10:58 -0500
Subject: Delivery failure
Message-ID: <200207020610.g626AweR029251@ak47.algebra.com>


Message from yahoo.com.
Unable to deliver message to the following address(es).

<elschaef at yahoo.com>:
Sorry your message to elschaef at yahoo.com cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102].

<jdavid1066 at yahoo.com>:
Sorry your message to jdavid1066 at yahoo.com cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102].

--- Original message follows.


From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  2 03:01:44 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 03:01:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Man in middle attack
In-Reply-To: <004101c22038$1ab76840$a36e9cd9@mark>
Message-ID: <20020702100144.74166.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

> The only thing that might, as far as I can see,
> succeed (with a high
> probability) would be for everyone to hash the
> *next* half - meaning that,
> together with half 2 of message N, there will be the
> hash of half one of
> message N + 1. However, I don't see how this would
> be possible for an
> interactive communication...

As far as i can extend the previous attack,i.e faking
1 packet for interlock protocol in the above 1 you
propose,extending the same attack it only takes
Mallory
one and a half faked packets to launch a succefull
attack on the above proposal.

let 
A=Alice
M=Mallory
B=Bob

let 
1:1  indicate 1 st packet ,1st half
1:2  indicate 1 st packet , 2nd half

2:1  indicate 2 nd packet, 1st half
2:2  indicate 2nd packet , 2nd half 

and so on


so we are now have  1:2 and 2:1 as one complete
message
and so on

No:     A               M                B



1                    A->1:1           M->1:1   

2    M->1:1          B->1:1           

3                    A->1:2           M->1:2 

4    M->1:2          B->1:2          

5                    A->2:1           M->2:1

6    M->2:1          B->2:1

7                    A->2:2           ******
 


The blank spaces corresponding to each row indicates
that it is a sender and the other 2 are receivers.

Once Mallory receives A->2:2 ,he has 2 full packets in
hand and has faked 1 and a half packets(Step 7)

**** indicates that it is now the earler packet Bob
receives of Alice after Mallory's manupilation.
I hope that table will give some clarity.

now he can send Bob the original message of Alice.

So I think the above suggested protocol will not work.
Mallory can still get away with his scheme


Regards Data.


--- Marcel Popescu <mdpopescu at subdimension.com> wrote:
> From: "gfgs pedo" <jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com>
> 
> > One solution suggested against the man in the
> middle
> > attack is using the interlock protocol
> 
> This is the one I vaguely recalled, thank you.
> 
> > All mallory would have to do is send the half of
> the
> > (n th) packet when he receives the half of (n+1)th
> > packet since the 1 st packet was faked by mallory.
> 
> Interesting attack... assuming that a one-block
> delay doesn't look
> suspicious.
> 
> What if every message except the very first one has
> a hash of the previously
> received message?
> 
> A -> (M ->) B: half 1 of message A1
> B -> (M ->) A: half 1 of message B1 | hash (half 1
> of message A1)
> A -> (M ->) B: half 2 of message A1 | hash (half 1
> of message B1)
> B -> (M ->) A: half 2 of message B1 | hash (half 2
> of message A1)
> A -> (M ->) B: half 1 of message A2 | hash (half 2
> of message B1)
> ... and so on
> 
> Nah... won't work; since M captures A1 and B1, he
> can compute the hashes for
> both the initial bogus message and the (delayed)
> genuine ones. Same if they
> try hasing all the previous messages.
> 
> What if they send the hash of the *other* half? (The
> program splitting the
> messages already has the full ones.)
> 
> A -> (M ->) B: half 1 of message A1 | hash (half 2
> of message A1)
> B -> (M ->) A: half 1 of message B1 | hash (half 2
> of message B1)
> A -> (M ->) B: half 2 of message A1 | hash (half 1
> of message A1)
> B -> (M ->) A: half 2 of message B1 | hash (half 1
> of message B1)
> ... and so on
> 
> Nope, no good... M fakes the first message in both
> direction, and then he
> always has a good one, so he can compute the hashes.
> 
> The only thing that might, as far as I can see,
> succeed (with a high
> probability) would be for everyone to hash the
> *next* half - meaning that,
> together with half 2 of message N, there will be the
> hash of half one of
> message N + 1. However, I don't see how this would
> be possible for an
> interactive communication...
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  2 03:43:26 2002
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 03:43:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: biometric containment (privacy, fingerprints, dead utah 
  blondes)
In-Reply-To: <3D2118B4.822F0341@qaeda.org>
Message-ID: <20020702104326.20005.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>


> Only way I can think of is to physically control your deadtree print sheet
> and require the Feebs to manually enter the dozen topo-feature-locations

This assumes no androids among Them.

The days of anonymity by default are over. All straws in the haystack have been
barcoded, and needle stands out like a sore thumb.

Welcome to anonymity by design. Another force in the evolutionary game. On the
next cpunk meet we should exchange some dandruff, hair, spit, dead skin and, of
course, latex fingerprints.

I forgot, there are no cpunk meets any more.



=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Mon Jul  1 19:02:07 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Tue,  2 Jul 2002 04:02:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
Message-ID: <a6b004914175778f4ea04ce035b9d422@remailer.privacy.at>


This is from http://mondediplo.com/2000/06/15publicgood:

"What is a public good? This question can best be answered by looking at
the counterpart, a private good. Private goods are typically traded in
markets. Buyers and sellers meet through the price mechanism. If they
agree on a price, the ownership or use of the good (or service) can be
transferred. Thus private goods tend to be excludable. They have clearly
identified owners; and they tend to be rival. For example, others cannot
enjoy a piece of cake, once consumed.

"Public goods have just the opposite qualities. They are non-excludable
and non-rival in consumption. An example is a street sign. It will not
wear out, even if large numbers of people are looking at it; and it would
be extremely difficult, costly and highly inefficient to limit its use to
only one or a few persons and try to prevent others from looking at it,
too. A traffic light or clean air is a further example. "

Robert Hettinga writes:

> A signed, much less encrypted, copy of a piece of digital information, or
> even a digital service, for that matter, (teleoperated machine commands,
> or a live video feed answering a question, and, of course, computation
> and bandwidth) is, in fact, an "ordinary, private" good.

How can a signed piece of digital information be a private good, by
the definitions above?  It is non-rival: if someone enjoys the good,
he can give it to others and he will still be able to enjoy it.  And it
is non-excludable: if you give it to some people, they can share it with
others and you can't prevent that, as Napster proved.

Even encrypting the information won't help (unless to a key embedded
in some DRM related hardware).  The recipient can still decrypt it and
share it.  It is still non-rival and non-excludable.

Digital services, on the other hand, may well be rival and excludable,
and so do qualify as private goods.  Hence there is no need for DRM
mechanisms to control services.  Most observers believe this is a big
reason for the software industry's interest in "web services", that
they will not be vulnerable to software piracy.  Since such services
are excludable they are not relevant to our debate over DRM and TCPA.

But you claimed that signed pieces of digital information were private
goods.  Please explain.  Are you using standard economic definitions,
or are you inventing your own terminology?




From wbdl_interpromo at worldmail.ac  Mon Jul  1 20:04:51 2002
From: wbdl_interpromo at worldmail.ac (wbdl_interpromo at worldmail.ac)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 04:04:51 +0100
Subject: CONGRATULATIONS: FINAL NOTICE!
Message-ID: <03082042920470@uane.edu.mx>



                                   WERKEN BIJ DE LOTTO,
                                  41132, NL-1007 DB AMSTERDAM,
                                  THE NETHERLANDS.
                                  TEL/ FAX: 31 205241696 

FROM: THE DESK OF THE DIRECTOR PROMOTIONS,
INTERNATIONAL PROMOTIONS/PRIZE AWARD DEPARTMENT,
REF: WBL/67-A075328127

ATTN:

	INTERNATIONAL PROMOTIONS; WINNING NOTICE

CONGRATULATIONS! It is our pleasure to inform you, this day 2nd July  2002, that you have emerged one out of fifteen winners of the WERKEN BIJ DE LOTTO/ INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMS, category C. Therefore you have been approved a lump pay sum pay of US$1,500,000.00 credited to file with reference number REF: WBL/67-A075328127.

Your file, attached to ticket number 013-2316-2002-477, with serial number A025-09 drew the lucky numbers 37-13-34-85-56-42, won in the category C. All participants were drawn from the Euro Lotto International Programs, which produced 30,000 names from Australia, America, Asia, Africa and Europe. Winners emerged by computer ballot system, and draws were held on 17th and 18th JUNE 2002. All participants were selected through a computer ballot system drawn from 30,000 names from Australia, America, Asia and Europe as part our International Promotions Program, which is conducted annually.

Be informed that your funds, like funds of other winners in your category have been insured and deposited with our financial handlers EUROLITE BV, in your name. You are to immediately contact your claims officer to claim your funds. Find relevant contact details below:

JANSEN DAVIS
FOREIGN SERVICE MANAGER,
EUROLITE BV,
FAX:  31205241417
EMAIL: eurolitebvfsm01 at europe.com

The above personnel is to supervise due remittance of your prize of US$1,500,000.00 to an account of your choice, on or before  12TH JULY, 2002. Failure to comply is, by our policies, tantamount to declining all claims and such funds will be duly returned to our accounts as unclaimed. You will be required to provide your reference and ticket numbers for verification purposes.

Please note that we will not entertain any case of multiple claims in whatever manner it is presented. You are therefore instructed, in your own interest, to strictly hold all information in this mail privy and from public knowledge, pending a successful claims processing and remittance. 

We hereby also officially invite you to participate in our biennial high stakes. Tickets will cost a token sum of US$120.00. You will be informed of the date of draw soonest.

CONGRATULATIONS again and thank you for being part of our international promotions.


Yours truly,

THE DIRECTOR PROMOTIONS,
WERKEN BIJ DE LOTTO.

N.B. Any breach of confidentiality or any other conditions stated above, on the part of the winners will result to immediate disqualification. Please do not reply this mail.




From wbdl_interpromo at worldmail.ac  Mon Jul  1 20:04:57 2002
From: wbdl_interpromo at worldmail.ac (wbdl_interpromo at worldmail.ac)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 04:04:57 +0100
Subject: CONGRATULATIONS: FINAL NOTICE!
Message-ID: <03082653920481@uane.edu.mx>



                                   WERKEN BIJ DE LOTTO,
                                  41132, NL-1007 DB AMSTERDAM,
                                  THE NETHERLANDS.
                                  TEL/ FAX: 31 205241696 

FROM: THE DESK OF THE DIRECTOR PROMOTIONS,
INTERNATIONAL PROMOTIONS/PRIZE AWARD DEPARTMENT,
REF: WBL/67-A075328127

ATTN:

	INTERNATIONAL PROMOTIONS; WINNING NOTICE

CONGRATULATIONS! It is our pleasure to inform you, this day 2nd July  2002, that you have emerged one out of fifteen winners of the WERKEN BIJ DE LOTTO/ INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMS, category C. Therefore you have been approved a lump pay sum pay of US$1,500,000.00 credited to file with reference number REF: WBL/67-A075328127.

Your file, attached to ticket number 013-2316-2002-477, with serial number A025-09 drew the lucky numbers 37-13-34-85-56-42, won in the category C. All participants were drawn from the Euro Lotto International Programs, which produced 30,000 names from Australia, America, Asia, Africa and Europe. Winners emerged by computer ballot system, and draws were held on 17th and 18th JUNE 2002. All participants were selected through a computer ballot system drawn from 30,000 names from Australia, America, Asia and Europe as part our International Promotions Program, which is conducted annually.

Be informed that your funds, like funds of other winners in your category have been insured and deposited with our financial handlers EUROLITE BV, in your name. You are to immediately contact your claims officer to claim your funds. Find relevant contact details below:

JANSEN DAVIS
FOREIGN SERVICE MANAGER,
EUROLITE BV,
FAX:  31205241417
EMAIL: eurolitebvfsm01 at europe.com

The above personnel is to supervise due remittance of your prize of US$1,500,000.00 to an account of your choice, on or before  12TH JULY, 2002. Failure to comply is, by our policies, tantamount to declining all claims and such funds will be duly returned to our accounts as unclaimed. You will be required to provide your reference and ticket numbers for verification purposes.

Please note that we will not entertain any case of multiple claims in whatever manner it is presented. You are therefore instructed, in your own interest, to strictly hold all information in this mail privy and from public knowledge, pending a successful claims processing and remittance. 

We hereby also officially invite you to participate in our biennial high stakes. Tickets will cost a token sum of US$120.00. You will be informed of the date of draw soonest.

CONGRATULATIONS again and thank you for being part of our international promotions.


Yours truly,

THE DIRECTOR PROMOTIONS,
WERKEN BIJ DE LOTTO.

N.B. Any breach of confidentiality or any other conditions stated above, on the part of the winners will result to immediate disqualification. Please do not reply this mail.




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Jul  1 21:21:49 2002
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 04:21:49 +0000
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
In-Reply-To: <029601c2216b$33733240$6501a8c0@josephas>
References: <4f956779a6099a62aab5329aa077ac95@xganon.com> <20020701023119.GA29081@havenco.com> <029601c2216b$33733240$6501a8c0@josephas>
Message-ID: <20020702042149.GA26561@leopard.venona.net>


Quoting Joseph Ashwood <ashwood at msn.com>:

> The same argument can be applied to just about any tool.
> 
> A knife has a high likelihood of being used in such a manner that it causes
> physical damage to an individual (e.g. you cut yourself while slicing your
> dinner) at some point in its useful lifetime. Do we declare knives evil?

There is a difference between a general purpose, if potentially very evil,
tool, like, say, handcuffs, or firearms, and a tool which has a very specific
intended purpose and very few possible other purposes.

If someone constructed a special machine which would check fingerprints,
positively identify someone as me (and only me), and then kill me, I would
feel it my self-interested obligation to destroy that device and anyone
associated with it.  It's a selfish cost-benefit analysis which I would
expect everyone to undertake on his own.
> 
> DRM is a tool. Tools can be used for good, and tools can be used for evil,
> but that does not make a tool inherently good or evil. DRM has a place where
> it is a suitable tool, but one should not declare a tool evil simply because
> an individual or group uses the tool for purposes that have been declared
> evil.

At some point a technology goes beyond being a general purpose tool and becomes
a specialized implement of policy.  Particularly when there are already
laws passed to leave an implement-sized hole, which once filled by
a specific implementation of technology, can accomplish great evil,
particularly when assisted by laws already on the books.

A device which makes drug testing of people at a distance completely
trivial to undertake would probably be "evil" in my opinion.  Certainly
the underlying technology and science is interesting, but once assembled
into the "police-o-matic drug tester" with integrated execution module,
it's evil.

I don't really believe in "good and evil", but evil is a useful shorthand
for certain classes of things.  Ultimately, DRM is anti-science (in that
laws like the DMCA will prohibit exploration) and anti-freedom (in that
it will ultimately of necessity lead to the end of general purpose computing).

Evil really means "counter to my ideals sufficiently that I will take
arbitrarily arduous action to eliminate it".  The nation-state is Evil.
Stovepipe jams are annoying, but not evil.  (I would take action to
eliminate bad-but-not-Evil, but wouldn't go so far as to hack off a limb
or whatever).

I consider the nation state to be evil.  While I'm perfectly happy to pirate
media, I would not consider purely technical means of preventing this to
be evil, until and unless the nation state becomes involved in supporting
those technical means.  Since the laws (DMCA, specifically) are already in
place to support DRMs, they are already officially Evil.

I assume there are enough people who are either (or both, but not necessarily)
anti-government and pro-hacking-as-discovery that they would consider DRM
either Evil or just bad.  If the people who just find them slightly bad
protest DRM technologies in the early stages, they are welcome to 
withdraw from the debate when it escalates to an all-out battle to 
preserve general purpose computing hardware in private hands (although
hopefully osmosis would cause them to feel DRM is actually Evil, too)



>                         Joe

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]        ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.        +44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away   http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 05:06:54 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 07:06:54 -0500
Subject: Times Online - Congress unites in fear of world 'government'
Message-ID: <3D21975E.DA8ABE40@ssz.com>


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-344149,00.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 05:08:57 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:08:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Worldwide Caution Public Announcement (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020702070839.19651E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:35:19 -0400
From: PA List Manager <statelists at STATE.GOV>
To: DOSTRAVEL at LISTS.STATE.GOV
Subject: Worldwide Caution Public Announcement

Worldwide Caution Public Announcement
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman

July 1, 2002

This Worldwide Caution supersedes the previous Worldwide Caution of March
17, 2002 to alert Americans to the need to remain vigilant during the
upcoming summer season and to remind them of the continuing threat of
terrorist actions which may target civilians and include suicide operations.
This Worldwide Caution expires on October 1, 2002.

The U.S. Government continues to receive credible indications that extremist
individuals are planning additional terrorist actions against U.S.
interests.  Such actions may be imminent and include suicide operations.  We
have no further information on specific targets, timing or method of attack.
We remind American citizens to remain vigilant with regard to their personal
security and to exercise caution.

Terrorist groups do not distinguish between official and civilian targets.
Recent attacks on worshippers at a church and synagogue underline the
growing possibility that as security is increased at official U.S.
facilities, terrorists and their sympathizers will seek softer targets.
These may include facilities where Americans are generally known to
congregate or visit, such as clubs, restaurants, places of worship, schools
or outdoor recreation events.  Americans should increase their security
awareness when they are at such locations, avoid them, or switch to other
locations where Americans in large numbers generally do not congregate.
American citizens may be targeted for kidnapping.

U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert.
These facilities may temporarily close or suspend public services from time
to time to review their security posture and ensure its adequacy.  In those
instances, U.S. Embassies and Consulates will make every effort to provide
emergency services to American citizens.  Americans are urged to monitor the
local news and maintain contact with the nearest American Embassy or
Consulate.

As the Department continues to develop information on any potential security
threats to Americans overseas, it will share with them credible threat
information through its Consular Information Program documents.  These
documents are available on the Internet at http://travel.state.gov.  In
addition to information on the Internet, U.S. travelers may hear recorded
information by calling the Department of State in Washington, D.C. at
202-647-5225 from their touch-tone telephone, or receive information by
automated telefax by dialing 202-647-3000 from their fax machine.

***********************************************************
See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for
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************************************************************
To change your subscription, go to http://www.state.gov/www/listservs_cms.html




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Tue Jul  2 08:56:57 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:56:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Microsoft against legally mandated DRM?
In-Reply-To: <005101c221b7$d5076a80$a36e9cd9@mark>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207020854400.25554-100000@eskimo.com>


Not so much against legal mandates as against a specific mandate.
In otherwords, they don't want to be trapped by something that
might fail.  They need the option to force people to buy new
stuff all the time.

I did like the comment about telling Hollywood to get into the
distribution game.  But that's because it's my bias :-)

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Jul  2 09:41:23 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 09:41:23 -0700
Subject: Outlawing general purpose computers *is* feasible
Message-ID: <3D21D7B3.97188B4C@cdc.gov>


At 09:31 PM 7/1/02 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>> Unfortunately it is being introduced at the same time as there is
>> legislation proposed, the SSSCA, to outlaw general purpose
>> computers
>
>Anyone who believes this, or even repeats it as a rumor, is on drugs.
>
>I have half a dozen computers, all usable in various ways. Not even in
a
>Chinese-type police state could these legally-acquired computers,
>acquired for a lot of money, be declared "outlawed."

Substitute "assault rifle" for "computer" and think about it, Tim.
Or substitute "japanese american"...

First you register them.  Then declare them a public threat.  Then you
confiscate.
Buying up your old-style computers will be cheap for the government.
Most of the sheeple will be happy to unload them.

What, you didn't register your Lisa?  Better not use it online, your ISP
will be
required to check for a registration cert issued by the State.


> Saying that general purpose computers lacking TCPA/DRM will be
>"outlawed" is silly.

Right, and a bayonet lug can't lead to a felony...

And the sheeple can't be led to believe that "unpoliced" computers are
used
by terrorists and pirates bent on undermining the Amerikan ekonomy
(tm)...

Ah, to be as optimistic as Tim May on a fine summer day..




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Jul  2 06:44:23 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:44:23 -0400 
Subject: biometric containment (privacy, fingerprints, dead utah
  blond es)
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A01E90F1E@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Optimizzin Al-gorithym[SMTP:al at qaeda.org] wrote:
> 
> So the neighbors of that dead blonde Utah jailbait volunteered their
> fingerprints, presumably for discounting them, though possibly not.
> In any case: how could a neighbor-friendly cypherpunk give
> prints which were *not* entered into the Fed Oracle?
> 
> Only way I can think of is to physically control your deadtree print
> sheet
> and require the Feebs to manually enter the dozen topo-feature-locations
> 
> of your print from a memoryless measuring device, (eg, a glass lens and
> reticle) in front of you, then take the print sheet with you.  How you
> verify
> that the imaging system is memoryless is up to you.
> 
> Comments?
> 
It's SOP to take fingerprints of anyone who frequented the
crime scene, even if there is no doubt of their innocence. This
enables the majority of fingerprints collected to be eliminated
from consideration.

I remember reading of one of the very earliest fingerprint cases, 
somewhere in Europe (Austria?)in the late 1800s.  A murder had taken 
place in a boarding house, and the crime scene was seriously
disturbed by reporters, on-lookers, souvenier hunters, etc. However,
a bottle with a clear handprint was found under the bed.

There were no fingerprint registries at that time. The detective
had to get fingerprint cards for everyone who was near the site,
and found the murderer. The book included a photo of the bonfire
they made of the fingerprint cards afterwards.

Since then, of course, the level of ethics of the LEAs has 
deteriorated markedly - if they get a set of prints for 
whatever reason, it is never destroyed.

-----

One civic volunteer program I work with is CHIP, a free 
local child identification program (www.mychip.org). 
It provides parents with data to help in identifying 
their children if they go missing. This includes a 
fingerprint card taken by a policeman. All the data 
collected is retained by the parents - nothing by the 
police, and CHIP retains only a permission slip. I've 
been very heartened by the fact that now the majority 
of parents who are signing up their children actually 
raise the privacy issue - they want to make sure that 
neither we nor the police keep copies of the data.

Peter Trei




From m30mex at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  2 20:57:33 2002
From: m30mex at yahoo.com (ROCHEL)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 09:57:33 -1800
Subject: best refinance mortgage interest rate online           WSGUVCUPN
Message-ID: <000034e55cd2$00001496$00000274@mx1.mail.yahoo.com>


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From fabricehalimi at aol.com  Tue Jul  2 02:40:54 2002
From: fabricehalimi at aol.com (VOS PROSPECTS)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:40:54 +0200
Subject: CIBLEZ ET DEMARCHEZ GRATUITEMENT VOS PROSPECTS PAR CENTAINES DE MILLIERS
Message-ID: <200207020943.g629hmeR012378@ak47.algebra.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 8949 bytes
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 09:50:45 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:50:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | More on Riemann Hypothesis (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020702115024.19651F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://science.slashdot.org/science/02/07/02/1428227.shtml?tid=134


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 09:51:06 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:51:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Register - indymedia.nl loses anarchist hyperlink case (UK) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020702115054.19651G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://theregister.co.uk/content/6/25992.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Jul  2 03:19:17 2002
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:19:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: on 'evil' as an abbreviation
In-Reply-To: <166eb09148c72a19fc48b0b9803447cf@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207021213120.17796-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org>


On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> We're talking about voluntary systems here.  Ryan said that DRM was
> evil even if voluntary.

It is evil because the naive user doesn't see all the ramifications, in 
regards to longterm abuse, and he's not exactly being told. Plus, the 
naive users are being used as attack platforms against nonnaive users as 
far as interoperability is concerned.

This is evil, and some pretty strongly worded high profiled debunking is 
needed.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Jul  2 12:55:04 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:55:04 -0700
Subject: Outlawing general purpose computers *is* feasible
In-Reply-To: <3D21D7B3.97188B4C@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <3D21A2A8.17345.119A78F@localhost>


    --
Tim May:
> > I have half a dozen computers, all usable in various ways. Not 
> > even in a Chinese-type police state could these 
> > legally-acquired computers, acquired for a lot of money, be 
> > declared "outlawed."

Major Variola (ret)
> First you register them.  Then declare them a public threat. 
> Then you confiscate. Buying up your old-style computers will be 
> cheap for the government. Most of the sheeple will be happy to 
> unload them.
>
> What, you didn't register your Lisa?  Better not use it online, 
> your ISP will be required to check for a registration cert 
> issued by the State.

As Stalin said
: : 	Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let 
: : 	our enemies have guns, why should we let them have 
: : 	ideas?

Of course the SSSCA will not fly, it is already dead in the water,
but something that is a small step towards it will fly, and then
someone will complain that the loopholes in that small step need
to be fixed, and so on and so forth.

The laws will always get worse unless they are massively broken. 
The restrictions on cryptography went away because everyone defied 
them, but anti circumvention and regional encoding seems to have 
succeeded, which is going to result in more of the same.

Same thing with money laundering.  I am glad to see that the 
recent terrorism related crackdown on money laundering has led to 
a massive upsurge in defiance of these new and old restrictions, 
which will doubtless eventually lead to some reasonable easing 
back. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     QsUHrGL2QNZlo+jpeCUba7pIlDWjzNaBIpOjWpVz
     2FWhsO3kXWr5ya6t8VAnzFkFZzpNYMpHTFxB2zK7L




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Jul  2 12:55:51 2002
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
In-Reply-To: <99DF01D6-8D74-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net> from "Tim
  May" at Jul 01, 2002 09:31:38 PM
Message-ID: <200207021955.g62JtuF05832@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Tim wrote:

> > Unfortunately it is being introduced at the same time as there is
> > legislation proposed, the SSSCA, to outlaw general purpose
> > computers

> Anyone who believes this, or even repeats it as a rumor, is on drugs.

If the government can outlaw the sale of TVs which do not have the
closed-caption feature, which do not tune UHF as easily as VHF, which do
not have Macrovision compliant AGC circuits, or countless other government
mandated features, what makes you think that computers could not be
required to be compliant with a similar laundry list?

Sure I can own and use use a "general purpose" TV which was manufactured
before the requirements, but it won't have a remote control, nor a high
contrast black matrix picture tube, nor a coax input, and it will take me
all afternoon to adjust the purity and convergence.  It will also weigh a
ton.

Almost all TVs in use today have the mandated features.  If analagous
features are mandated in computers, almost all computers in use will be
compliant within a period of a few years.  Sure I will be able to use an
antique "general purpose" computer, but it won't run the right software,
and it won't play current content.  Will most innumerate Sheeple bother?  
Of course not.

> I have half a dozen computers, all usable in various ways. Not even in a 
> Chinese-type police state could these legally-acquired computers, 
> acquired for a lot of money, be declared "outlawed."

Whem Moore's Law gives your wristwatch more computing power than all your
antique machines combined, you will haul them to the dump, just like your
neighbors are doing.

> Not even counting your computers, and my computers, and 500 million 
> computers already out in the U.S. alone, there are the designs of 
> processors like Pentium 4, Athlon, McKinley, Thoroughbred, Duron, etc., 
> _none_ of which are of this Valenti-friendly TCPA form. None of the 
> hundreds of millions of systems now being prepared for sale are of this 
> form. Saying that general purpose computers lacking TCPA/DRM will be 
> "outlawed" is silly.

Such functionality will be placed in a dedicated chipset apart from the
microprocessor initially.  How many computers made 10 years ago are around
today?  How many made today will be around 10 years from now?

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Jul  2 13:38:40 2002
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
In-Reply-To: <20020702205330.A1014834@exeter.ac.uk> from "Adam Back" at
  Jul 02, 2002 08:53:30 PM
Message-ID: <200207022038.g62Kcu505898@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Adam Back writes:

> Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private posession
> of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the mind...

Roosevelt called an emergency session of congress to pass the Emergency
Banking Relief Act, an amendment to the Trading With the Enemy Act.  He
then seized the gold of all US citizens, compensating them at a rate of
twenty-some dollars an ounce.  

Subsequently, he set an exchange rate for the dollar of $35 per ounce of
gold, and this revaluation of the government's new gold stocks wiped out
the national debt.

Where the President and Congress are concerned, "Emergency" is generally a
code word for "The Constitution is toilet paper."

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Jul  2 10:59:10 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:59:10 -0400 
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A01E90F22@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net]
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately it is being introduced at the same time as there is
> > legislation proposed, the SSSCA, to outlaw general purpose
> > computers
> 
> Anyone who believes this, or even repeats it as a rumor, is on drugs.
> 
> I have half a dozen computers, all usable in various ways. Not even in a 
> Chinese-type police state could these legally-acquired computers, 
> acquired for a lot of money, be declared "outlawed."
> 
> Not even counting your computers, and my computers, and 500 million 
> computers already out in the U.S. alone, there are the designs of 
> processors like Pentium 4, Athlon, McKinley, Thoroughbred, Duron, etc., 
> _none_ of which are of this Valenti-friendly TCPA form. None of the 
> hundreds of millions of systems now being prepared for sale are of this 
> form. Saying that general purpose computers lacking TCPA/DRM will be 
> "outlawed" is silly.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
Tim is both right and wrong. 

It's almost unthinkable that he or anyone else will be asked to turn in
their 
old hardware. But 'They' don't have to. All that needs to be done is to 
mandate that all *new* hardware have the TCPA/DRM hobbles. 

Moore's law will do the rest. 

Sure, people can swap old Babylon 5 episodes on DIVX for as long as they 
want, but Moore's law will have stopped for uncrippled machines - Want to 
interact with full immersion VR 1Mpixel x 1Mpixel games and dramas with 
serious AI? How about full-sensorium telepresence? Those ain't gonna run 
on your  2 GHz Pentium, any more than you can run Descent 3 or 
Netscape on your VIC-20. You'll want, and need the newest 30 GHz
machines, and guess what? They *all* have TCPA/DRM.

Peter Trei




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Jul  2 14:00:09 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:00:09 -0700
Subject: Outlawing general purpose computers *is* feasible
In-Reply-To: <3D21D7B3.97188B4C@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <E17PRyd-0004oO-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


Outlawing computers is perfect for outlaws, though the public at 
large may be buffaloed into consuming whatever is pushed in
its direction for safety and security in lieu of outlawed freedom 
to choose.

And gray and black markets will supply those public members
who get fed up with crowd-control tools of limited interaction.

Indeed, an anti-patriot might welcome oppressive operating
systems and chips as a boon to increasing the number of people 
who won't accept being told how to interact with their computers.

If MS and buddies are successful in getting a clamp on
what you can do with mass-marketed computers then the
colored market for alternatives will rocket.

To be sure the illegal boxes will have to be kept out of sight,
and here the moonshiners have a wealth of information to
share, along with arms merchants, drug kingpins, money
launderers, rogue nations, guerillas, rebels, anti-royalists,
just about anybody who is not part of the momentarily ruling 
crowd of thieves.

And don't overlook the insiders ever eager to cut a deal
against their vile bosses, to pass along tips on what is being
hidden in the MS/gov-approved boxes, how to get around it,
what will beat it, and so on, in the glorious anarcho tradition,
cooking up new ways of doing business off the grid, mostly
by offering better products than those of available at the
endless-patch mall.

Salespeople overeager to capitalize on an short-term market
with shoddy products are rainmakers for makers of dependable 
tools. Gates is nothing but a salesperson to his best customers,
the TLA national security hustlers.

Sure, you'll have to cut-tongue an anarcho rat become a salesperson
now and then, but that's why box cutting scimitars are blessed by 
the Beezlebub. Metaphorically speaking.




From Marcel_Popescu at microbilt.com  Tue Jul  2 04:01:35 2002
From: Marcel_Popescu at microbilt.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:01:35 +0300
Subject: Microsoft against legally mandated DRM?
Message-ID: <005101c221b7$d5076a80$a36e9cd9@mark>


http://www.microsoft.com/issues/essays/2002/06-03digitalrights.asp




From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Jul  2 15:49:50 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:49:50 -0700
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
Message-ID: <3D222E0E.F3C622C7@cdc.gov>

--SAA28282.1025651979/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA28340.1025652005/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA28409.1025652022/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA29169.1025652777/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA29368.1025652883/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA29581.1025653002/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA29776.1025653142/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA29925.1025653247/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA30092.1025653372/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA30274.1025653473/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA30410.1025653529/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA30574.1025653614/einstein.ssz.com--


--SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com--




From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Jul  2 15:49:50 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:49:50 -0700
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
Message-ID: <3D222E0E.F3C622C7@cdc.gov>


At 05:19 PM 7/2/02 -0400, Jack Lloyd wrote:
> Real time video still requires
>something fairly high end, but give it a year.

The compression function could be integrated into the videocamera,
relieving that CPU burden.   Playback is more problematic.




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From: edgewood at raginent.com (edgewood at raginent.com)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:59:07 -1600
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 14:27:07 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:27:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NewsForge: Zimmermann to Network Associates: Sell PGP back to me, or  open-source it (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020702162648.19651J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/07/01/1411226.shtml?tid=21


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From lloyd at acm.jhu.edu  Tue Jul  2 14:19:36 2002
From: lloyd at acm.jhu.edu (Jack Lloyd)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:19:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
In-Reply-To: <200207021955.g62JtuF05832@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33L2.0207021701460.22525-100000@centaur.acm.jhu.edu>


On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Eric Cordian wrote:

[...]

I agree that making them mandatory requirements for new machines will do
more than enough, without having to bother to make old machines illegal.

> > Not even counting your computers, and my computers, and 500 million
> > computers already out in the U.S. alone, there are the designs of
> > processors like Pentium 4, Athlon, McKinley, Thoroughbred, Duron, etc.,
> > _none_ of which are of this Valenti-friendly TCPA form. None of the
> > hundreds of millions of systems now being prepared for sale are of this
> > form. Saying that general purpose computers lacking TCPA/DRM will be
> > "outlawed" is silly.
>
> Such functionality will be placed in a dedicated chipset apart from the
> microprocessor initially.  How many computers made 10 years ago are around
> today?

Plenty. Most are so old as to be virtually useless by modern standards, but
hey.

> How many made today will be around 10 years from now?

Even more. And I think it likely that they will be more useful than
currently 10 year old machines, as well.

Why do I think that? Mostly because Intel/AMD/Dell/co are having such an
awful time trying to sell the latest and greatest whiz-bang stuff. Back 'in
the day', virtually _any_ speed increase was worth buying. But at this
point, unless you've got something really special in mind, you can often
stay a generation or two (or three) back without any problems at all. Also,
pretty much any machine made in the last couple of years is fast enough to
do real time audio capture and compression. Real time video still requires
something fairly high end, but give it a year.

Not to say that having DRM hardware will not be a total pain the ass. Just
that mass-scale piracy will still be very much possible. But I suppose they
already know that.

-Jack




From matchnews at foryou.match.com  Tue Jul  2 15:55:22 2002
From: matchnews at foryou.match.com (matchnews@match.com)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:55:22 -0500
Subject: Question: What do women really think
Message-ID: <20020702224952.98AAA96D68C4@dal53004.match.com>

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Careful, well-thought decisions generally lead to better results in dating, and this is 
certainly true with online dating too. Guard against
more 
 
URL: http://www.match.com/Matchscene/article.asp?bannerid=512515&ArticleID=10 
 
 
 
Visit Match.com, the world's largest online dating community. 

You've received this bulletin as a subscriber to the Match.com newsletter. To UNSUBSCRIBE, log 
in to Match.com, select My Account, and choose Match.com Newsletter under MY EMAIL OPTIONS.
 
Copyright 1993-2002 Match.com, Inc. Match.com and the radiant heart are registered trademarks 
of Match.com, Inc. 

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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:19:39 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:39 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022319.SAA28282@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:21 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=485
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown

From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:20:05 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:05 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022320.SAA28340@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:46 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=3306
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:20:22 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:22 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022320.SAA28409@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:13 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=5191
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:32:57 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:32:57 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022332.SAA29169@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:32:16 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=7132
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:34:43 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:34:43 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022334.SAA29368@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:34:03 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=9638
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:36:42 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:36:42 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022336.SAA29581@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:35:48 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=11523
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:39:02 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:39:02 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022339.SAA29776@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:38:08 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=13409
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:40:47 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:40:47 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022340.SAA29925@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:40:00 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=15295
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:42:52 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:42:52 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022342.SAA30092@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:42:07 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=17181
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:44:33 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:44:33 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022344.SAA30274@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:43:55 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=19067
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:45:28 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:45:28 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022345.SAA30410@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:45:06 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=20953
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 16:46:54 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:46:54 -0500
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-ID: <200207022346.SAA30574@einstein.ssz.com>

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:46:19 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=22839
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
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From wordplanet at time-2-win.com  Tue Jul  2 18:54:10 2002
From: wordplanet at time-2-win.com (WordPlanet)
Date: Tue,  2 Jul 18:54:10 2002 -0700
Subject: just thought you would like to know...
Message-ID: <83367904.5557709@mailhost>

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From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Jul  2 16:09:50 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:09:50 -0400
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
In-Reply-To: <edea26156bee9cb2331d796ea63907bd@remailer.privacy.at>
References: <edea26156bee9cb2331d796ea63907bd@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <p05111a19b947d4752819@[66.149.49.6]>

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From blancw at cnw.com  Tue Jul  2 19:30:33 2002
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:30:33 -0700
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
   (Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207022133540.24865-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <FLEJLELCPOOCNFGDGKKGCEFKCMAA.blancw@cnw.com>


Duncan Frissell said:

By forcing Americans to turn in
their gold before devaluation, the Feds got more gold for less money.

........................


But:  the individual common folk couldn't be forced to turn in their gold if
the govmt didn't know they had any, right, since gold wasn't/isn't
trackable.  So it would only have been highly visible commercial entities
who couldn't refuse?

  ..
Blanc




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Jul  2 17:31:11 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:31:11 -0500
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
  (Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers")
In-Reply-To: <p05111a29b947e6ad6d3f@[66.149.49.6]>
References: <99DF01D6-8D74-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <049f01c221f0$6fb7f670$a36e9cd9@mark>
  <20020702205330.A1014834@exeter.ac.uk>
  <p05111a29b947e6ad6d3f@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <20020703003111.GA4576@cybershamanix.com>


   Wasn't the dollar backed by silver for quite awhile? There were definitely
real silver dollars coined for quite awhile, and the dollar said something on it
about silver certificate. Likewise many smaller coins had a high silver content
-- this ended sometime during Vietnam, not sure the year. I've still got a bag
of silver coins laying around somewhere. 


On Tue, Jul 02, 2002 at 07:37:48PM -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> At 8:53 PM +0100 on 7/2/02, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> > Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private
> > posession of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the
> > mind...
> 
> Roosevelt wanted to make the dollar a fiat currency, IIRC. Before
> then, you could redeem dollars for gold, after then you could redeem
> dollars for, well, dollars.
> 
> This was slid sideways a bit after the war by the Bretton Woods
> agreement, which made various European currencies exchangeable into
> dollars at mostly fixed rates, and *foreigners* could exchange
> dollars into gold.
> 
> Which, once Europe was on its feet financially, and Johnson's
> democrats began inflating the dollar to pay for Vietnam and other fun
> things,  deGaulle's France (did I spell those both right, AAA? :-))
> happily started changing dollars into gold, FOB Paris, thank you very
> much.
> 
> At which point, Nixon floated the dollar, and, at the same time,
> allowed the private possession of gold in the US again. Then he did
> something really stupid and instituted price controls, but, he was
> always an Nerf-Conservative political opportunist anyway, or at least
> a Keynesian, which is the same thing, even Le Monde Diplomatique says
> so ;-)...
> 
> Fortunately, the rest of the innumeracy that was the New Deal has
> been going down the shitter since then. They finally got rid of the
> Glass-Stegal act a few years ago, for instance, the law that
> bifurcated investment banks and banks of deposit.
> 
> Cheers,
> RAH
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP 7.5
> 
> iQA/AwUBPSI5NMPxH8jf3ohaEQLH8wCeOlVDblBsF0ZCkqfUH89d2tfXn+QAn0UU
> Ab7b99fnYcZi+Db1BFivOsu3
> =iCZG
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> -- 
> -----------------
> R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
> "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
> [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
> experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Jul  2 16:37:48 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:37:48 -0400
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
    (Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers")
In-Reply-To: <20020702205330.A1014834@exeter.ac.uk>
References: <99DF01D6-8D74-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net> 
  <049f01c221f0$6fb7f670$a36e9cd9@mark>
  <20020702205330.A1014834@exeter.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <p05111a29b947e6ad6d3f@[66.149.49.6]>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 17:58:28 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:58:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: What's up with openpgp.net?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020702195727.19651K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:51:17 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject:    

>From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 18:50:39 2002
Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA31038
	for cypherpunks at ssz.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:50:17 -0500
Received: from localhost (localhost)
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA30729;
	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:48:07 -0500
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:48:07 -0500
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at ssz.com>
Message-Id: <200207022348.SAA30729 at einstein.ssz.com>
To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
	boundary="SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com"
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)

This is a MIME-encapsulated message

--SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com

The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:47:41 -0500
from cpunks at localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
cypherpunks at openpgp.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
>>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=24725
<<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
<<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown

--SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com
Content-Type: message/delivery-status

Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:47:41 -0500

Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:48:06 -0500

--SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com
Content-Type: message/rfc822


From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Tue Jul  2 11:41:05 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Tue,  2 Jul 2002 20:41:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA
Message-ID: <edea26156bee9cb2331d796ea63907bd@remailer.privacy.at>


Robert Hettinga writes:
> If it's encrypted, and it's on my hard drive, than it's my property. I own
> it, not someone else. That's a private good. I can turn around, and sell it
> to you. You can encrypt it, and put it on your hard drive, and you can sell
> it. It's *your* property.

This has nothing to do with the definition of public versus private goods,
which was quoted in the message to which you replied.  Public goods are
non-rival and non-excludable, terms which were defined there.  Do you
understand what these words mean?  Can you use them in a sentence that
begins, "Digitally signed information is not a public good because..."?


> In the meantime, read my .sig, below, and take it to heart.
> ...
> "Externalities are the last refuge of the derigistes." -- Friedrich Hayek

Right, I'll do that as soon as you learn to spell dirigistes.  There's
nothing like using French incorrectly to show someone up as a pretentious
jackass.




From mdpopescu at subdimension.com  Tue Jul  2 10:46:46 2002
From: mdpopescu at subdimension.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 20:46:46 +0300
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
References: <99DF01D6-8D74-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <049f01c221f0$6fb7f670$a36e9cd9@mark>


From: "Tim May" <tcmay at got.net>

> I have half a dozen computers, all usable in various ways. Not even in a
> Chinese-type police state could these legally-acquired computers,
> acquired for a lot of money, be declared "outlawed."

Now, I love hyperbole as much as the next guy, but you have no idea what a
Chinese-type police state could declare outlawed. I heard about a country
that declared illegal people's own gold. Wait, maybe you heard of it too!
[Duh...]

If China declares that all people with an IQ over 70 are to be killed
tomorrow, they WILL be killed tomorrow, and those few who manage to escape
will be prosecuted by everyone - especially by those with IQs below 70. I've
seen something like this at work in my country, right after our revolution -
the "We Work, not Think" slogan was actually very much in use, and I won't
be very surprised to find people who still believe / embrace it. (People
WERE attacked because they were "intellectuals", which was worse than
"burgeoise" for several months in 1990.)

> Not even counting your computers, and my computers, and 500 million
> computers already out in the U.S. alone, there are the designs of
> processors like Pentium 4, Athlon, McKinley, Thoroughbred, Duron, etc.,
> _none_ of which are of this Valenti-friendly TCPA form. None of the
> hundreds of millions of systems now being prepared for sale are of this
> form. Saying that general purpose computers lacking TCPA/DRM will be
> "outlawed" is silly.

You still failed to say why. This is Tim "Saying that gold will be outlawed
is silly" May for you.

Mark




From adam at cypherspace.org  Tue Jul  2 12:53:30 2002
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 20:53:30 +0100
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
  (Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers")
In-Reply-To: <049f01c221f0$6fb7f670$a36e9cd9@mark>; from
  mdpopescu@subdimension.com on Tue, Jul 02, 2002 at 08:46:46PM +0300
References: <99DF01D6-8D74-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <049f01c221f0$6fb7f670$a36e9cd9@mark>
Message-ID: <20020702205330.A1014834@exeter.ac.uk>


Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private posession
of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the mind...

Adam

On Tue, Jul 02, 2002 at 08:46:46PM +0300, Marcel Popescu wrote:
> Now, I love hyperbole as much as the next guy, but you have no idea what a
> Chinese-type police state could declare outlawed. I heard about a country
> that declared illegal people's own gold. Wait, maybe you heard of it too!
> [Duh...]




From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Tue Jul  2 19:28:41 2002
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 21:29:41 -0459
Subject: Handset Sale
Message-ID: <200207022333453.SM01836@carlo>

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From frissell at panix.com  Tue Jul  2 18:46:15 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:46:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
   (Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers")
In-Reply-To: <20020702205330.A1014834@exeter.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207022133540.24865-100000@panix1.panix.com>


On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Adam Back wrote:

> Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private possession
> of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the mind...
>
> Adam

Eric's comment are correct.

A bit more info.  The US wanted to devalue the $ and substitute a general
gold standard for a government to government gold standard.  The gold
standard price of gold was $20.67/ounce.  By forcing Americans to turn in
their gold before devaluation, the Feds got more gold for less money.
They also wanted the freedom to inflate.  Gold clauses were common in
contracts and they would have made soft money difficult.

As is traditional under US law, gold ownership was banned for US citizens
and permanent residents anywhere on earth.  There were controlled
exemptions for coin collectors, jewelers, and dentists.

Gold smuggling became popular during the Vietnam war and the monetary
crises of the '60s and '70s.

It was re-legalized in January of 1975 (the only decent act of the Ford
Admin).

DCF




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Jul  2 22:28:23 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:28:23 -0700
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
In-Reply-To: <22778b1ce9b6de98103cba252bf5c52d@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <3D222907.4639.125B142@localhost>


    --
On 3 Jul 2002 at 2:36, Anonymous wrote:
> However doing a straight devaluation was politically
> unacceptable at the time.  Because the dollar was pegged to
> gold, devaluing the dollar meant in effect increasing the value
> of gold in terms of dollars. This would represent a tremendous
> windfall to holders of gold.  And gold, by and large, is owned
> by the rich.
>
> At the time, the U.S. faced a significant chance of a 
> Communist/Socialist revolution such as had been seen in several
> other countries.  Class warfare was widespread, with armed
> violence between workers and management a common occurance.

Bullshit.

In the 1930s Stalin's servants, Foster and Ford, ran for
president, all the great and the good, the top intellectuals at
the top universities, all fulsomely backed them, and of course
they got votes down in the asterixs.

In America the communist threat was always conspiratorial.  Actual
support by the actual working class was as near to nonexistent as
makes no difference.

In the 1870s there was in America working class movement bent on
class warfare.  It utterly discredited itself with murder,
sabotage, and crime, and by the 1890s was dead as a doornail,
never to rise again.

Ever since then, socialism in America has been an elitist
movement, composed of the children of the rich and powerful.



 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     dgflRx/7/dpa85Fuwux6fcCT/aaJHKjlLtPqXDNO
     2jxFJfp/F0zYFH6XlMgbJ27tHh7BnwTMX+V/TULJW




From warne61547 at euronet.be  Wed Jul  3 10:31:33 2002
From: warne61547 at euronet.be (Donny)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:31:33 -1900
Subject: Heard From Her Today                   29031
Message-ID: <00000d162338$000000a7$00001a78@pmdf01.desy.de>


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From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Jul  2 20:21:53 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:21:53 -0400
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
In-Reply-To: <p05111a19b947d4752819@[66.149.49.6]>
References: <edea26156bee9cb2331d796ea63907bd@remailer.privacy.at>
  <p05111a19b947d4752819@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <p05111a36b9481dae5173@[66.149.49.6]>


At 7:09 PM -0400 on 7/2/02, R. A. Hettinga wrote:


> Touchi mon pidant, touchi...

Shit. All that fancy option-e accent whatchamacallit nonsense with the old
mac here, and it comes back "i".  Somebody call the French language police
and send Steve Jobs off to jail.

And, yeah, I know, the screed I wrote had an extra however in a sentence or
two, and a few questions were missing question marks.

Life is hard.

:-).

As Dr. Brin says, "feh!"

Cheers,
RAH
Who's not above a "feh" or two himself, every once in a while...

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Jul  2 20:28:54 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:28:54 -0400
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
In-Reply-To: <22778b1ce9b6de98103cba252bf5c52d@remailer.privacy.at>
References: <22778b1ce9b6de98103cba252bf5c52d@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <p05111a37b9481f01a0fa@[66.149.49.6]>


At 2:36 AM +0200 on 7/3/02, Our Paleo-Keynsian Idiot from Austria wrote:


> Looking back, since there was, in fact, no revolution, it is easy to
> forget today how perilous the state of the country was in those times.
> For all those who curse Roosevelt's name, the U.S. at least ended up
> the decade in better shape than many countries, and things could have
> been far worse.  Americans could be living in a People's Republic today.
> Confiscating gold was clearly the lesser of the evils.

Jesus Christ.

Quit humping FDR's leg, already. Not only could the man not feel it, he's
dead already.

Besides, that's Falla's job, and, like little men, you don't *ever* want to
get a little dog pissed off.

Go clean yourself off, man. There's hose out back...

Cheers,
RAH


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Jul  2 20:34:17 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:34:17 -0400
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
    (Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers")
In-Reply-To: <20020703003111.GA4576@cybershamanix.com>
References: <99DF01D6-8D74-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net> 
  <049f01c221f0$6fb7f670$a36e9cd9@mark> 
  <20020702205330.A1014834@exeter.ac.uk> 
  <p05111a29b947e6ad6d3f@[66.149.49.6]>
  <20020703003111.GA4576@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <p05111a3bb9482023e4b7@[66.149.49.6]>


At 7:31 PM -0500 on 7/2/02, Harmon Seaver wrote:


>    Wasn't the dollar backed by silver for quite awhile? There were definitely
> real silver dollars coined for quite awhile, and the dollar said
>something on it
> about silver certificate. Likewise many smaller coins had a high silver
>content
> -- this ended sometime during Vietnam, not sure the year. I've still got
>a bag
> of silver coins laying around somewhere.

There were silver certificates, yes, and silver coins, until the market
value of the silver exceeded the value stated on the coin. Pennies have a
lot of zinc in them now, for the same reason.

I'm not sure when the silver certificate notes stopped being issued, though
it seems to me that FDR had something to do with that. I'm pretty sure they
were being honored at least into the 1970's, and it seems to me that they'd
just give you $20 worth of silver at market prices if you gave them a
silver certificate, which wasn't much help unless you thought either the
future price of silver was going up, or the dollar going down against
silver sometime later one.

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From ki6luts9h68 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  3 13:51:28 2002
From: ki6luts9h68 at hotmail.com (Vanessa)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:51:28 -1900
Subject: Best Life Insurance, Lowest Cost...                  G
Message-ID: <00000aea700a$00004230$0000338e@mx09.hotmail.com>

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From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Tue Jul  2 17:36:05 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Wed,  3 Jul 2002 02:36:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
Message-ID: <22778b1ce9b6de98103cba252bf5c52d@remailer.privacy.at>


> Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private posession
> of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the mind...

Roosevelt needed to in effect devalue the dollar during the Great
Depression.  In a deflationary depression, this acts as an inflationary
force to cancel the negative effects of the deflation.  Even libertarian
monetarists such as Milton Friedman agree that this is the proper approach
when dealing with a depression.  Roosevelt did not have the advantage
of modern economics and he made many economic mistakes which prolonged
the depression, but devaluing the dollar was not one of them.

However doing a straight devaluation was politically unacceptable
at the time.  Because the dollar was pegged to gold, devaluing the
dollar meant in effect increasing the value of gold in terms of dollars.
This would represent a tremendous windfall to holders of gold.  And gold,
by and large, is owned by the rich.

At the time, the U.S. faced a significant chance of a Communist/Socialist
revolution such as had been seen in several other countries.  Class
warfare was widespread, with armed violence between workers and management
a common occurance.  Transferring a huge bounty into the hands of the
rich would have inflamed the working class and risked plunging the
country into chaos and revolution.

By eliminating private gold ownership, Roosevelt was able to take a
necessary step to invigorate the economy, devaluing the dollar, while
reducing the risk of a civil war.  The rich protested, of course, but
in practice they went along with the measure as they were terrified
of a workers' revolution.

Looking back, since there was, in fact, no revolution, it is easy to
forget today how perilous the state of the country was in those times.
For all those who curse Roosevelt's name, the U.S. at least ended up
the decade in better shape than many countries, and things could have
been far worse.  Americans could be living in a People's Republic today.
Confiscating gold was clearly the lesser of the evils.




From TradeAtlantic at mail.pt  Tue Jul  2 22:06:14 2002
From: TradeAtlantic at mail.pt (TradeAtlantic at mail.pt)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:06:14 +0100
Subject: DISTRIBUTORS &  REP. NEEDED
Message-ID: <1025676374@armandot>


18 ONLINE TRADE MESSAGE BOARDS Free posting
Main site:
http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0141215901/default.htm
or
http://pluto.beseen.com/boardroom/a/56492/
for B2B links.

Trade-Atlantic IBC




From support at healthcoachcenter.com  Wed Jul  3 07:50:34 2002
From: support at healthcoachcenter.com (Health Coach Center)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:50:34 -0700
Subject: 24 NEW CUSTOMERS!
Message-ID: <200207031450.g63EoYo28014@ns1.lynxdigital.com>

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From mv at cdc.gov  Wed Jul  3 08:05:35 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:05:35 -0700
Subject: data mining for moles
Message-ID: <3D2312BF.33BD797A@cdc.gov>


http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,41206,00.html

               According to former and current DEA,
                  military, and State Department officials,
                  the cartel had assembled a database that
                  contained both the office and residential
                  telephone numbers of U.S. diplomats and
                  agents based in Colombia, along with the entire call
log for the
                  phone company in Cali, which was leaked by employees
of the
                  utility. The mainframe was loaded with custom-written
data-mining
                  software. It cross-referenced the Cali phone
exchange's traffic with
                  the phone numbers of American personnel and Colombian
                  intelligence and law enforcement officials. The
computer was
                  essentially conducting a perpetual internal mole-hunt
of the cartel's
                  organizational chart. "They could correlate phone
numbers,
                  personalities, locations -- any way you want to cut
it," says the
                  former director of a law enforcement agency.
"Santacruz could see
                  if any of his lieutenants were spilling the beans."

                The central feature of
                  the facility was a $1.5 million IBM AS400
                  mainframe, the kind once used by banks,
                  networked with half a dozen terminals and
                  monitors.




From subscription at powerparcel.com  Wed Jul  3 05:09:23 2002
From: subscription at powerparcel.com (Sick Mail)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:09:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sick Mail - WELCOME ! - Add-adultplex-90022:cyp102569775420153
Message-ID: <200207031209.g63C9NZ28130@mx5a.y8k.net>

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From iang at systemics.com  Wed Jul  3 05:54:00 2002
From: iang at systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:54:00 -0400
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
References: <p05111a38b9481fc3ce31@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <3D22F3E8.B89BC38A@systemics.com>


> From: Anonymous <nobody at remailer.privacy.at>
> 
> > Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private posession
> > of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the mind...
> 
> Roosevelt needed to in effect devalue the dollar during the Great
> Depression.  In a deflationary depression, this acts as an inflationary
> force to cancel the negative effects of the deflation.  Even libertarian
> monetarists such as Milton Friedman agree that this is the proper approach
> when dealing with a depression.  Roosevelt did not have the advantage
> of modern economics and he made many economic mistakes which prolonged
> the depression, but devaluing the dollar was not one of them.
>
> However doing a straight devaluation was politically unacceptable
> at the time.  Because the dollar was pegged to gold, devaluing the
> dollar meant in effect increasing the value of gold in terms of dollars.
> This would represent a tremendous windfall to holders of gold.  And gold,
> by and large, is owned by the rich.
> 
> At the time, the U.S. faced a significant chance of a Communist/Socialist
> revolution such as had been seen in several other countries.  Class
> warfare was widespread, with armed violence between workers and management
> a common occurance.  Transferring a huge bounty into the hands of the
> rich would have inflamed the working class and risked plunging the
> country into chaos and revolution.
> 
> By eliminating private gold ownership, Roosevelt was able to take a
> necessary step to invigorate the economy, devaluing the dollar, while
> reducing the risk of a civil war.  The rich protested, of course, but
> in practice they went along with the measure as they were terrified
> of a workers' revolution.
> 
> Looking back, since there was, in fact, no revolution, it is easy to
> forget today how perilous the state of the country was in those times.
> For all those who curse Roosevelt's name, the U.S. at least ended up
> the decade in better shape than many countries, and things could have
> been far worse.  Americans could be living in a People's Republic today.
> Confiscating gold was clearly the lesser of the evils.

One is troubled by this rather excellent post by
anonymous.

I accept at face value the comments made, and they
certainly seem to match the facts and circumstances
of the times (the arisal of Keynsianism from the
roots of the Great Depression).

What troubles me is the pressumption of modern
economics somehow presenting an advantage.  What
would that advantage be?

And if that advantage would somehow ease the pain
of the Great Depression, or not have started it in
the first place, why is it that the IMF (claimed by
some to be a body that dispenses American economic
thought and American loans), advised the Argentinian
government to peg the peso, and gave them lots of
loans to keep it there?

Argentina is now in its 1st Great Depression of this
century, and it's pretty clear that the IMF and the
fixed exchange rate together were responsible as the
external events.

The only way I can reconcile this is to negate the
advantage or benefit conferred by modern economics?

Any other takes?

-- 
iang




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul  3 08:55:04 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:55:04 -0700
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
Message-ID: <5576iussq3ano1pt2oe1u6u3f2q4ngl1nj@4ax.com>


    --
On 3 Jul 2002 at 2:36, Anonymous wrote:
> At the time, the U.S. faced a significant chance of a 
> Communist/Socialist revolution such as had been seen in several 
> other countries.  Class warfare was widespread,

The high point of support for socialism among the masses in the US 
was the 1870s, give or take a couple of decades.

By 1900 socialists around the world had given up all hope of 
genuinely revolutionary seizure of power, and were pursuing 
conspiratorial paths.

The 1930s was the high point of support for socialism among the 
intellectuals, the privileged, and the elite.  Their efforts to 
foist their preferences on the American masses met with resounding 
hostility and reluctance.  Not only was there no danger of a 
socialist revolution, in the US or anywhere else, but in the US 
the leadership's attempts to force socialism down peoples throats 
met stubborn resistance.

There was more mass support for socialism in other countries, but 
no socialist revolutions in those countries, nor any danger of 
such revolt.  There were socialist coups, and conspiratorial 
seizures of power by socialists in other countries. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     3x+jv+MnH33X3HSDdYMeLIgT55+H4ekUhpOMDJDS
     2vKGDwf7SNzlVqX8Hi5qcbp51h1c6SSx0sz6gRDeI




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Jul  3 06:02:28 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:02:28 -0400
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207031200410.13368-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.F
  I>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207031200410.13368-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >
Message-ID: <p05111a40b948a3b7bb68@[66.149.49.6]>

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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Jul  3 08:50:45 2002
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:50:45 -0600
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
Message-ID: <3D231D55.8DEE3704@lsil.com>


Anonymous <nobody at remailer.privacy.at> 

>> Just curious, but what was the rationale under which private posession
>> of gold was made illegal in the US?  It boggles the mind...
>
><snip>
>
>However doing a straight devaluation was politically unacceptable
>at the time.  Because the dollar was pegged to gold, devaluing the
>dollar meant in effect increasing the value of gold in terms of dollars.
>This would represent a tremendous windfall to holders of gold.  And gold,
>by and large, is owned by the rich.
>
><snip>
>
>By eliminating private gold ownership, Roosevelt was able to take a
>necessary step to invigorate the economy, devaluing the dollar, while
>reducing the risk of a civil war.  The rich protested, of course, but
>in practice they went along with the measure as they were terrified
>of a workers' revolution.
>
><snip>
>

IIRC many of the wealthy were quick enough to ship huge amounts of gold
to Europe. That is one reason I have heard given that the St Gauden's
$20 gold pices of that era are possibly poor investments - there is a
reservoir of them overseas.

Mike




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Jul  3 09:14:15 2002
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:14:15 -0600
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
Message-ID: <3D2322D7.8F4208F1@lsil.com>


"Marcel Popescu" <mdpopescu at subdimension.com> wrote :
>
>From: "Sampo Syreeni" <decoy at iki.fi>
>
>> But when the yield does not go to the one who created
>> the master copy, why should anyone create anything, anymore? (Or, more
>> realistically, why should people create at an efficient level?)
>
>There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the
>market outcome is always efficient". We both created stuff we didn't expect
>to be paid for - these emails. Why - this is for psychology to discover.
>
>Mark
>
The why is easy - for some reason you think that strutting around in
this barnyard is going to get you more chicas. 

Mike




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Jul  3 10:20:13 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:20:13 -0700
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
In-Reply-To: <3D231D55.8DEE3704@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <22ACE623-8EA9-11D6-BCE6-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 08:50  AM, Michael Motyka wrote:
> IIRC many of the wealthy were quick enough to ship huge amounts of gold
> to Europe. That is one reason I have heard given that the St Gauden's
> $20 gold pices of that era are possibly poor investments - there is a
> reservoir of them overseas.

But St. Gaudens coins were readily available during the time when gold 
ownership was banned.

(Let me be overly careful: They were purchasable from coin stores and 
mail order places in the mid-1960s. I know because I used to see them 
listed at a price I clearly remember: $49.50.)

I assume they did not just suddenly become available at the time I 
happened to be paying attention, and that they were purchasable in 1960, 
1950, 1940, etc. The exemption for numismatic value, of course.

Owning coins for collector, or numismatic, value, is of course a 
different kettle of fish than owning gold as bullion.




--Tim May
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, 
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance 
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give 
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, 
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, 
die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." --Robert A. Heinlein




From patrick at loom.cc  Wed Jul  3 07:36:30 2002
From: patrick at loom.cc (Patrick Chkoreff)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:36:30 -0400
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
In-Reply-To: <3D22F3E8.B89BC38A@systemics.com>
References: <p05111a38b9481fc3ce31@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020703101033.034c7350@loom.cc>


> > Roosevelt needed to in effect devalue the dollar during the Great
> > Depression.  ....
> > However doing a straight devaluation was politically unacceptable
> > at the time.  Because the dollar was pegged to gold, devaluing the
> > dollar meant in effect increasing the value of gold in terms of dollars.

Roosevelt did devalue the dollar.  On January 31, 1934, he issued an 
Executive Order which devalued the dollar from 23.22 grains of gold down to 
13.71 grains.  That was a 59% devaluation.

As you say, devaluing the dollar did increase the value of gold in terms of 
dollars.  The value of gold in terms of dollars jumped from $20.67 to 
$35.00, an increase of 69%.

>Roosevelt did not have the advantage
> > of modern economics and he made many economic mistakes which prolonged
> > the depression, but devaluing the dollar was not one of them.

Yeah, good thing Roosevelt didn't make the mistake of devaluing the 
dollar!  Whew!  :-)


> > Americans could be living in a People's Republic today.
> > Confiscating gold was clearly the lesser of the evils.

Yes, the only way to avoid communism was to devalue the dollar and make 
possession of a yellow metal punishable by fine and imprisonment.  Anybody 
can see that.  :-)

Seriously though, we didn't avoid communism at all.  FDR was our first 
communist president.


-- Patrick

P.S.  http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Chkoreff/chkoreff1.html




From nobody at xganon.com  Wed Jul  3 08:48:00 2002
From: nobody at xganon.com (xganon)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:48:00 -0500
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
Message-ID: <caac4309a1d62f28457f88473acdb60b@xganon.com>


Ryan Lackey writes:

> I consider DRM systems (even the not-secure, not-mandated versions)
> evil due to the high likelyhood they will be used as technical
> building blocks upon which to deploy mandated, draconian DRM systems.
> DRM systems inevitably slide toward being more mandated, and more draconian.
>
> DRM-capable TCPA-type systems are evil by the same argument, even if
> not used for DRM.
>
> The primary reason they are evil is not the stated goal of DRM systems
> (copy protection in various forms), but the ease with which they could
> be used to eliminate cypherpunk applications.

Do you really think that DRM systems could eliminate cypherpunk
applications?  Have you thought this through in detail?  Please expand
on it.

How many kinds of software would have to be eliminated for this to
be true?  What constitute "cypherpunk applications"?  In how many forms
could they be written and distributed?

What kind of world would be necessary for DRM systems to actually be in
use for the purpose of eliminating cypherpunk applications?




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Jul  3 10:42:33 2002
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:42:33 -0600
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
Message-ID: <3D233789.1C610288@lsil.com>


Tim May <tcmay at got.net> wrote :
>
>On Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 08:50  AM, Michael Motyka wrote:
>> IIRC many of the wealthy were quick enough to ship huge amounts of gold
>> to Europe. That is one reason I have heard given that the St Gauden's
>> $20 gold pices of that era are possibly poor investments - there is a
>> reservoir of them overseas.
>
>But St. Gaudens coins were readily available during the time when gold 
>ownership was banned.
>
>(Let me be overly careful: They were purchasable from coin stores and 
>mail order places in the mid-1960s. I know because I used to see them 
>listed at a price I clearly remember: $49.50.)
>
>I assume they did not just suddenly become available at the time I 
>happened to be paying attention, and that they were purchasable in 1960, 
>1950, 1940, etc. The exemption for numismatic value, of course.
>
The opinion I am repeating ( not mine, but seems plausible ) is that the
supply of numismatic quality St. Gauden's may be such that the current
premiums are not justified.

>Owning coins for collector, or numismatic, value, is of course a 
>different kettle of fish than owning gold as bullion.
>
The premium over the bullion value is a very large component of the
price.

I've tried to learn a bit about coin collecting but I find myself
hesitant to plunge right into it. It's just like any other "investment",
subject to bubbles, busts and shady operators. I don't know enough to
feel comfortable with it.

Having watched bullion prices for a while it appears to have two major
factors : a bet on fear ( peaked during the India/Pakistan prick wagging
contest ) and against a strong dollar. Yet another trading option. 

>--Tim May

Mike




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Jul  3 02:41:31 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:41:31 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
In-Reply-To: <p05111a19b947d4752819@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207031200410.13368-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

>"Rival" means that only one person can own something at once. That,
>technically, is the case with anything digitable.

No. It is the case with the digitized version, but not the work. Nobody
would argue that actual copies aren't normal, private goods. One time,
when copying was difficult, there was even a one-to-few correspondence
between works and copies. Today that isn't the case. Replication and
creation are now neatly separable, and benefits of scale in the former do
not translate to returns to the latter. Copies are still a private good,
as ever, but works are becoming increasingly pure public goods. According
to orthodox public goods theory, that might well be a problem.

In practice the issue is muddled beyond belief, of course.

>Excludable, if you want to go back to your eurosocialst wanker Le Monde
>Diplomatique definition, means that when you've used it, it's useless to
>anyone else.

Did this thread really start with something taken from LMD? The list
really *has* stooped to an all-time low...

>It's price, however, is very, very, small, however, but just because
>it's cheap doesn't mean that you can't do transactions that small.

The point in copyright wars is about incentives to authors vs. the right
to copy privately, not about the ease of copying. Sure, microtransactions
are a possibility. But when the yield does not go to the one who created
the master copy, why should anyone create anything, anymore? (Or, more
realistically, why should people create at an efficient level?)

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jul  3 12:49:29 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 12:49:29 -0700
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
In-Reply-To: <5576iussq3ano1pt2oe1u6u3f2q4ngl1nj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <E17PnLo-00039m-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


Socialism in the US, and elsewhere, transmogrified into other 
movements which adopted some of its aspects and mixed them
with other social and political intentions. To be sure, socialism
was such a mongrel itself, as was and is, capitalism. Hardly
a political ideology is not an opportunistic blend of what will
work, and which will evolve in a winning direction, hopefully.

Capitalism is infused with socialist benefits for its practitioners,
and democratic socialism pervasive in Europe is infused
with luxurious elitism which favors those who enjoy heirarchies.

Anti-political ideologies are about the only schemes which
do not hide what they are made of, have stolen from, deny
they are, all the while reaping rewards that come with
dissimulation.

Even anarchy as most often practiced benefits mostly its
promulgators at the expense of their followers -- yes,
anarchists are composed of dues-stealing leaders and 
dunned followers no matter what its ideolgues preach.

A most pernicious ideology is that of individualism,
particularly the "rugged" version, in which person espouses
a rejection of all ideology while gobbling among the
garbage heap of ideology for bits and pieces to confect
a seemingly unique brew of convictions which when examined
shows nothing more than what ignorance can engender in the
way of mongrelism triumphant.

Sometimes, praise allah, ignorance does surpass wisdom
in weeding out incestous ideologies, so contaminated by
each other's liftings and copyings and prevarications that
they are hulks without substance, and instead of these
skins of shallowest appearance grow a novel set of ideas
which fit the times, for a brief period at least. Those who
follow these novelties are considered mad by the main
street phlegmatics who may insist the sheriff kill the 
terrifying varmints, and the sheriff may do that provided 
deputies sent to do the pesticide are not members of the
rebellion always bubbling beneath the appearance of
law and order.




From briancooper4 at uk2.net  Wed Jul  3 13:00:53 2002
From: briancooper4 at uk2.net (Brian Cooper)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:00:53
Subject: Easy Money - If you follow the rules
Message-ID: <200207031202.g63C2UVB001297@ak47.algebra.com>


Easy Money - If you follow the rules

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This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, 
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------




From eurexl at msn.com  Wed Jul  3 05:02:45 2002
From: eurexl at msn.com (eurexl at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:02:45 +0100
Subject: give god thanks
Message-ID: <200207031202.g63C2qVC001315@ak47.algebra.com>

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From eurexl at msn.com  Wed Jul  3 05:03:34 2002
From: eurexl at msn.com (eurexl at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:03:34 +0100
Subject: give god thanks
Message-ID: <200207031212.HAA17222@einstein.ssz.com>

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From mdpopescu at subdimension.com  Wed Jul  3 03:21:57 2002
From: mdpopescu at subdimension.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:21:57 +0300
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
References: <22778b1ce9b6de98103cba252bf5c52d@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <006801c2227b$76198160$a36e9cd9@mark>


From: "Anonymous" <nobody at remailer.privacy.at>

> Even libertarian
> monetarists such as Milton Friedman agree that this is the proper approach
> when dealing with a depression.

Murray Rothbard's law number 17: all economists specialize in the field they
suck most. Friedman is good in many areas, but he sucks in monetary stuff,
so obviously he specialized in it. There is NOTHING libertarian in
Friedman's ideas about money.

> At the time, the U.S. faced a significant chance of a Communist/Socialist
> revolution such as had been seen in several other countries.  Class
> warfare was widespread, with armed violence between workers and management
> a common occurance.  Transferring a huge bounty into the hands of the
> rich would have inflamed the working class and risked plunging the
> country into chaos and revolution.

Oh, a socialist... ok, that's why you like Friedman when he speaks about
money.

> Confiscating gold was clearly the lesser of the evils.

ROTFL...

Mark




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul  3 13:25:12 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:25:12 -0700
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
In-Reply-To: <caac4309a1d62f28457f88473acdb60b@xganon.com>
Message-ID: <3D22FB38.6734.45ABFD1@localhost>


    --
On 3 Jul 2002 at 10:48, xganon wrote:
> Do you really think that DRM systems could eliminate cypherpunk 
> applications?  Have you thought this through in detail?  Please 
> expand on it.

The system as specified is harmless, because it can run anyone's 
code, and thus can run napster like applications (break once, copy 
everywhere.)  It also has many useful and valuable privacy
protecting applications.

However it is a system and set of institutions that can validate 
that properly authorized code is running, and thus with a 
relatively minor change can ensure that ONLY properly authorized 
code may be run -- (Hey, we will protect you from all viruses, and 
all poorly written code, and all code that facilitates anti social 
behavior.)

It is disturbingly similar to a system that is not harmless. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     RSKjGT73BB+nfEj0qtX0sn0B+4QQ71DrX+4wNum/
     2k5arIOwIFz87qvNido6QITyV6Mpu6esId/LUiBWq




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul  3 13:34:02 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:34:02 -0700
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207032018130.11276-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.F
  I>
References: <035901c222a1$47185050$a36e9cd9@mark>
Message-ID: <3D22FD4A.29022.462D533@localhost>


    --
> >We both created stuff we didn't expect to be paid for - these
> >emails.

On 3 Jul 2002 at 20:49, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> True. But somehow I fail to see how one can scale this sort of 
> reasoning to entail anything approaching one of the current
> TOP10 movies.

First, lost of people make plays, music, ballet, etc, without
expectation of turning a profit from copyright.  Partly it is to
impress the chicks, partly to sell idea, and sell stuff.  The
Powerpuff movie is largely funded by toymakers.

Secondly, if everyone had a chip containing all the movies and
television shows that were ever made, would it be such a disaster
if movie production declined?  Most movies, and most music videos
are just copycat stuff.   In the course of channel surfing I
recently saw the latest singer chick, made up like Suzi Quatro,
doing a total ripoff of Suzi Quatro's version of "I love rock and
roll", using very similar props to Suzi Quatro.  Did we really
need the extra version?  Would it not be better if we had better
access to the original (and much better) version. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     cViyObtLN5BKiheTPxywftMCkfzYp19VoUGNbStu
     2J8LQiLfHEVpAn5S63xnIH6XUNss3bIzaSNfvdCvv




From sowand at zipmail.com  Wed Jul  3 13:44:09 2002
From: sowand at zipmail.com (Andrew Sowho)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:44:09 -0700
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <GIGANTICZujps5w4Jy6000000c4@levee.minder.net>



I am Andrew Sowho, We have not had the pleasure of each others acquaintance but I hope this will be remedied soon.
I am in search of an Investment Manager who can invest and manage the sum of Sixteen Million United States Dollars into a viable endeavour, capable of yielding reasonable annual return as profit on principal amount invested.
Given the antecedent of the ownership of the fuuds.I need someone who can clear the funds into his/her account , carry out the actual business and remit profit to my account without trouble.For avoidance of doubt, I require someone to be my eyes,ears and hands , someone who is reliable and trustworthy and above all cautious.
should you be interested and capable please contact me via email for further details.
I will not contact anyother person until I hear from you.





From sowand at zipmail.com  Wed Jul  3 13:44:40 2002
From: sowand at zipmail.com (Andrew Sowho)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:44:40 -0700
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <200207031253.HAA18374@einstein.ssz.com>



I am Andrew Sowho, We have not had the pleasure of each others acquaintance but I hope this will be remedied soon.
I am in search of an Investment Manager who can invest and manage the sum of Sixteen Million United States Dollars into a viable endeavour, capable of yielding reasonable annual return as profit on principal amount invested.
Given the antecedent of the ownership of the fuuds.I need someone who can clear the funds into his/her account , carry out the actual business and remit profit to my account without trouble.For avoidance of doubt, I require someone to be my eyes,ears and hands , someone who is reliable and trustworthy and above all cautious.
should you be interested and capable please contact me via email for further details.
I will not contact anyother person until I hear from you.





From InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com  Wed Jul  3 11:13:49 2002
From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (Insight on the News)
Date: 03 Jul 2002 14:13:49 -0400
Subject: Insight on the News Email Edition
Message-ID: <200207031414893.SM00688@broadbandpublisher.com>


INSIGHT NEWS ALERT!

New stories from Insight on the News are now online.

http://www.insightmag.com

...............................................

Folks, best wishes on America�s 226th birthday! Here in Washington we�re keeping 
our spirits high and our eyes peeled as we prepare to celebrate with the rest of 
the country. Let�s hope all the security precautions turn out to be a waste of 
time. Anyway, check out Arnaud de Borchgrave�s stunner on al-Qaeda�s e-mails if 
you have the time http://www.insightmag.com/news/257229.html. We�ve got a 
gourmet menu of new articles for you today. From the Bunker, I�m your newsman in 
Washington, wishing all of us a glorious Independence Day.

...............................................

DISTURBING READING�AL-QAEDA�S ENCRYPTED E-MAILS

Arnaud de Borchgrave reveals that the U.S. intelligence community is convinced 
that al-Qaeda has already activated "sleeper" agents in the U.S. 
http://www.insightmag.com/news/257229.html

...............................................

FOREST SERVICE BLOWING SMOKE OVER THE DEATHS OF FIREFIGHTERS

Michelle Malkin writes that Terry Barton, a U.S. Forest Service ranger, recently 
was charged with intentionally setting the largest wildfire in Colorado history. 
It is a black mark on the beleaguered federal agency. But it's not the blackest 
mark. ... http://www.insightmag.com/news/257031.html

...............................................

DID THE UAW OBSTRUCT JUSTICE?

In this investigative report, Michael Munday writes that, in winning a 
controversial jury verdict, the United Auto Workers seem to have obstructed 
justice.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/256945.html



========================================

          Pat Boone�s 7 Reasons to Own Gold!

http://www.fame-inc.com/MultiReg/index.asp?CC=30

========================================



PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD---BEGINNING OF THE END FOR ISRAEL

Don Feder writes that in the past Bush has cautioned that statehood can only 
come after the slaughter ceases and democratic reform � the first ever in the 
Arab world � takes place. Still, Secretary of State Colin Powell and others are 
pushing the president to pick up his pom-poms and act as a cheerleader for a 
Palestinian state. ... http://www.insightmag.com/news/256965.html

...............................................

IS MEDICARE BEING TAKEN TO THE CLEANERS?

Peter Pitts asks if Americans have checked their pockets.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/257314.html

...............................................

WHY ARAFAT WANTS IT ALL

Mona Charen tells us that there was a time when most Palestinians truly wanted a 
separate state. Arafat never did. And while accepting Nobel prizes and red 
carpets from governments the world over, he has remade the Palestinians in his 
own image. They are now a nation of terrorists.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/256966.html

...............................................

HARRY BINGHAM---PROFILE IN COURAGE

This U.S. Foreign Service officer is finally being recognized, after he ignored 
his bosses at Foggy Bottom and saved thousands of Jews from the Nazis, at the 
cost of his career.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/256953.html

...............................................

DO WE NEED ANOTHER CABINET-LEVEL BUREAUCRACY?

Sean Paige says that the Bush administration not only has capitulated to 
Congress on whether the nation needs a Cabinet-level Department of Homeland 
Security, but also upped the ante by throwing everything into the pot but the 
kitchen sink.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/256964.html



========================================

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From remailer at remailer.xganon.com  Wed Jul  3 12:32:43 2002
From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:32:43 -0500
Subject: data mining for moles
Message-ID: <0b3285bc18a4433e40f9ebac8304e4cb@remailer.xganon.com>


   Gee, maybe I should head for Cali and set up a linux cluster shop. 

>  The central feature of
>                  the facility was a $1.5 million IBM AS400
>                   mainframe, the kind once used by banks,
>                   networked with half a dozen terminals and
>                   monitors.




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Jul  3 12:43:33 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:43:33 -0500
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
  (Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers")
In-Reply-To: <p05111a3bb9482023e4b7@[66.149.49.6]>
References: <99DF01D6-8D74-11D6-9384-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <049f01c221f0$6fb7f670$a36e9cd9@mark>
  <20020702205330.A1014834@exeter.ac.uk>
  <p05111a29b947e6ad6d3f@[66.149.49.6]>
  <20020703003111.GA4576@cybershamanix.com>
  <p05111a3bb9482023e4b7@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <20020703194333.GA3810@cybershamanix.com>


On Tue, Jul 02, 2002 at 11:34:17PM -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> At 7:31 PM -0500 on 7/2/02, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> 
> >    Wasn't the dollar backed by silver for quite awhile? There were definitely
> > real silver dollars coined for quite awhile, and the dollar said
> >something on it
> > about silver certificate. Likewise many smaller coins had a high silver
> >content
> > -- this ended sometime during Vietnam, not sure the year. I've still got
> >a bag
> > of silver coins laying around somewhere.
> 
> There were silver certificates, yes, and silver coins, until the market
> value of the silver exceeded the value stated on the coin. Pennies have a
> lot of zinc in them now, for the same reason.
> 
> I'm not sure when the silver certificate notes stopped being issued, though
> it seems to me that FDR had something to do with that. I'm pretty sure they
> were being honored at least into the 1970's, and it seems to me that they'd
> just give you $20 worth of silver at market prices if you gave them a
> silver certificate, which wasn't much help unless you thought either the
> future price of silver was going up, or the dollar going down against
> silver sometime later one.


   I did a quick search -- started issuing silver certificates in 1878, quit in
1957, but kept redeeming them for silver dollars until 1964, and for silver
bullion until 1968. 


-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul  3 16:23:34 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:23:34 -0700
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207040047440.19095-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.F
  I>
References: <0a9701c222c0$5f6d0280$a36e9cd9@mark>
Message-ID: <3D232506.25122.4FE0B17@localhost>


    --
On 4 Jul 2002 at 1:26, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> But try constructing an Independence Day without Will Smith. Or
> the special effects. Or the soundtrack. Or the distribution
> chain. Try guaranteeing that it arrives on schedule without
> making a loss. I think you will not be able to accomplish that
> with a volunteer effort. Try doing that tens of thousands of
> times a year (that's for all of what is currently covered by IP)
> and you're bound to fail. Unlike with Linux, the individual
> parts of most larger projects involving IP are of no use without
> the surrounding whole. Unlike Linux, many IP products aren't
> modular, reusable or decomposable, and so they can only exist if
> you can find a single source of financing for the whole project.
> In the case of modular projects, you can rely on overlapping 
> interests to fill in the voids, but most projects aren't like
> that. Especially if all that the creator gets is the
> ever-diminishing value of a single copy.

Increasingly the locations of big blockbuster movies exist inside
a computer, so a substantial reduction in finance would reduce,
rather than end the genre.

Again, If you offered the average guy the deal "Would you like on
demand access to all movies and television shows ever made, even
if it meant fewer and lower budget movie releases in future?", I
think most people would go for on demand access to everything. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     gWZBRbSRNDjGq8+KjaoqOPxgT5lZ2F9LX2ocm0bc
     2zgr4eTiKCozbQHScUv6yEqK35dT0WvEzOV/Rd8Fp




From fake_kravietz at aba.krakow.pl  Wed Jul  3 07:32:52 2002
From: fake_kravietz at aba.krakow.pl (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Pawe=B3?= Krawczyk)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:32:52 +0200
Subject: New articles on XSL attacks
Message-ID: <20020703143252.GJ7981@aba.krakow.pl>


Courtois and Pieprzyk have done significant progress in new class
of XSL attacks on block and stream ciphers, resulting in cracking
of Japan Toycrypt algorithm, with big perspectives on both fields.

,,Cryptanalysis of Block Ciphers using Overdefined Systems of
Equations''
Nicolas Courtois and Josef Pieprzyk
http://eprint.iacr.org/2002/044/

,,Higher Order Correlation Attacks, XL Algorithm and Cryptanalysis
of Toycrypt''
Nicolas Courtois and Josef Pieprzyk
http://eprint.iacr.org/2002/087/

WARNING: please note that my email address is modified to avoid
harvesting from list archives.
-- 
Pawe3 Krawczyk * http://echelon.pl/kravietz/
Krakow, Poland * http://ipsec.pl/




From mdpopescu at subdimension.com  Wed Jul  3 07:52:39 2002
From: mdpopescu at subdimension.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:52:39 +0300
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
References: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207031200410.13368-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >
Message-ID: <035901c222a1$47185050$a36e9cd9@mark>


From: "Sampo Syreeni" <decoy at iki.fi>

> But when the yield does not go to the one who created
> the master copy, why should anyone create anything, anymore? (Or, more
> realistically, why should people create at an efficient level?)

There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the
market outcome is always efficient". We both created stuff we didn't expect
to be paid for - these emails. Why - this is for psychology to discover.

Mark




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Jul  3 10:49:46 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:49:46 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
In-Reply-To: <035901c222a1$47185050$a36e9cd9@mark>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207032018130.11276-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Marcel Popescu wrote:

>There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the
>market outcome is always efficient".

Only if you take as granted a market based on some fixed set of property
rights and other rules of exchange. If you do this, there is no reason to
discuss the issue further and your reply was, to put it bluntly,
superfluous.

>We both created stuff we didn't expect to be paid for - these emails.

True. But somehow I fail to see how one can scale this sort of reasoning
to entail anything approaching one of the current TOP10 movies.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From hrdept at part-time.cc  Wed Jul  3 06:26:11 2002
From: hrdept at part-time.cc (hrdept at part-time.cc)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:26:11 +0800
Subject: �ִ�����ҵ�������ֶ�
Message-ID: <200207031337.IAA19274@einstein.ssz.com>


Hello: (If you can't read the email,please click here http://www.jjyx.com/serve/advertise.htm)   Thank you


�����

����֮�ǹ�����

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   serve at jjyx.com

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If you can't read the email,please click here http://www.jjyx.com/serve/advertise.htm  Thank you




From mdpopescu at subdimension.com  Wed Jul  3 11:35:14 2002
From: mdpopescu at subdimension.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:35:14 +0300
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
References: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207032018130.11276-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >
Message-ID: <0a9701c222c0$5f6d0280$a36e9cd9@mark>


From: "Sampo Syreeni" <decoy at iki.fi>

> >There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the
> >market outcome is always efficient".
>
> Only if you take as granted a market based on some fixed set of property
> rights and other rules of exchange. If you do this, there is no reason to
> discuss the issue further and your reply was, to put it bluntly,
> superfluous.

I can't see a market defined as anything else than "private property and
voluntary exchange".

> >We both created stuff we didn't expect to be paid for - these emails.
>
> True. But somehow I fail to see how one can scale this sort of reasoning
> to entail anything approaching one of the current TOP10 movies.

Irrelevant. Does Linux scale to your intended target any better? How about a
voluntary army in WW2? People do even "grand" things without expecting to be
paid (or even worse, expecting to die from it), because they want to. If you
want them to produce more, feel free to pay them. Arguments "I don't like
that they only produce this much, so YOU should pay them" are at least
inane.

Mark




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jul  3 22:54:43 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:54:43 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <041401c21db0$9dd77d30$0100a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>
References: <afecsf$ba3$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020703225147.0b94ecd0@idiom.com>

At 12:59 AM 06/27/2002 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>I fully agree that the TCPA's efforts offer potentially beneficial
>effects. Assuming the TPM has not been compromised, the TPM should
>enable to detect if interested parties have replaced you NIC with the
>rarer, but not unheard of, variant that ships out the contents of your
>operating RAM via DMA and IP padding outside the abilities of your OS to
>detect.

It can?  I thought that DMA was there to let you avoid
bothering the CPU.  The Alternate NIC card would need to have a
CPU of its own to do a good job of this, but that's not hard.

>However, enabling platform security, as much as might be stressed
>otherwise by the stakeholders, has never been the motive behind the
>TCPA. The motive has been DRM. Does this mean that one should ignore the
>benefits that TCPA might bring? Of course not. But it does mean that one
>should carefully weigh the benefits against the risks.

There's also the difficulty that, while it might be good at DRM,
it might or might not be good at letting users write programs
that are good at security.  It's certainly never been a Microsoft specialty.


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From telegraph.co.uk at emv2.com  Wed Jul  3 14:05:26 2002
From: telegraph.co.uk at emv2.com (telegraph.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:05:26 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Monthly Update from telegraph.co.uk
Message-ID: <71749207.67642.1025730326200@smtp3.emv2.com>

Dear John,

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From gabe at seul.org  Wed Jul  3 20:23:50 2002
From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:23:50 -0400
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207040047440.19095-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.F
  I>; from decoy@iki.fi on Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 01:26:54AM +0300
References: <0a9701c222c0$5f6d0280$a36e9cd9@mark>
  <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207040047440.19095-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Message-ID: <20020703232350.A23182@seul.org>


		On Thu, Jul 04, at 01:26AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
| >I can't see a market defined as anything else than "private property and
| >voluntary exchange".
| 
| Then you really must be blind. Markets not based on private property or
| volition abound. The political process is one of them. Social control is
| another. Gift economies, like Open Source, are a third. One might claim
| most markets are based on something other than the above mentioned
| combination.

Property does not always consist of physical goods. Case in point would
be the encrypted bits. To use some of your examples, the polical process
involves votes, which are the property of the person casting the
ballots, likewise, at least in this country, ballots are cast
voluntarily. "Gift economics." Who coined that phrase? Don't take credit
for it, it is a stupid term. Time and effort are both considered
"property" to be used as deemed fit by the person possessing, in this
case, the skills to use them on an Open Source (the volunteer kind,
since you can't seem to grasp that there are Open Source projects that
make money.) 

| It does indeed. But unlike movies, Linux is a modular project. The kernel
| would exist in the absence of the GNU toolset, and vice versa. X would
| exist in the absence of UNIX, too. Each of the common desktop applications
| could very well have been coded on top of something else than Linux.

You're too ignorant to be replied to, I wish I hadn't wasted the time,
but I digress. I can't think many things more modular than movies,
except perhaps theatre, but movies have even more latitude. Actors can't
be switched? Sets can't be constructed out of "nothing" on a computer
screen? Movies can't be made with virtually no budget? Get a clue.

| Why is it that there's no Buzz for Linux? No decent installer? (Not one of
| them survives my hardware...) No workable Unicode support? A stable 64-bit
| filesystem? Why is nobody willing to guarantee kernel stability, even when
| paid big bucks? 'Cause the project is a gift, and only caters to a single
| kind of need: something an individual developer/company really needs and
| can afford to develop for him/itself, then losing little by exposing the
| code to others. Usefulness thinly spread over a considerable user
| community is completely forgotten.

As someone who actually helps people with unix problems and who is a
unix user, I want to let you know that you fall into the "stupid user"
category if you can't get a linux distro to install on your computer.
Linux is a new breed of project, if you want it and it really matters to
you, the argument goes that you would either do it, (if you're capable,
but you clearly aren't) or you pay someone else to do it. (this falls
into the heading of "put your money where your mouth is.") Throw in the
fact that "usefulness" is an entirely relative term, and you have a
really poor argument. 

| Well, what stupid people they are. I wouldn't go anywhere as far as
| gettimg myself killed for the common good. Even paying for software I can
| just copy is a stretch. What makes you think most people care enough to Do
| the Right Thing? What makes you think relying on Doing the Right Thing is
| a good idea? I mean, it's been tried before, and the consequences aren't
| worth a second look.

Well, here you show your ignorance of economics again. ( on this one
point, don't feel too bad, though you are ignorant, you're in a league
that is very well populated ) First off, not everyone is motivated by
financial gain. "profit" is not necessarily a financial thing, when
someone stops and helps you out when you have a flat, the odds are that
they are not expecting you to pay them for their help. When someone
helps you install linux on your computer, they aren't likely to expect
financial remuneration, specially if you go to one of the great many
Linux User Groups throughout this country and many others. Often the
economic argument made is that people do what is in their best interest.
The problem that arises is when people who aren't very bright (hint,
hint) assume that that means financial reward of some kind. People are
complex creatures, to presume that financial gain is the only motivation
for people is a tad naive.

| Indeed they are. So are ones assuming that anything not profitable to a
| single person couldn't be to a larger number of individuals. Like most
| things, private property rights and economic theory based solely on
| bilateral trade are a matter of continuous dispute. It's not that I don't
| consider them useful (I do; nowadays you could call me, too, a
| libertarian), but taking them as granted isn't the way to go, either.

Well, libertarians usually, though not always, go along with free
markets, which is not what you're advocating. Usually, any economic
theory that assumes that anything could have no value to anyone is
wrong. Basic relativity (in the subjective sense) states otherwise.
Bilateral trade is the only kind of exchange in a free market
enviroment. As long as the exchange is made freely and willingly
(government regulation produces a bias, always.) it is always bilateral.

--Gabe




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Wed Jul  3 14:30:06 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Wed,  3 Jul 2002 23:30:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
Message-ID: <c35893889e0546789377dd7e1d79e33e@remailer.privacy.at>


Mark Popescu wrote:

>There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the
>market outcome is always efficient".

There is more to it than a tautology.  Ignoring market failures (such
things as public goods and externalities), markets are efficient in the
sense that they produce a Pareto optimal outcome.  Pareto optimality is
a state in which you can't make everyone better off by rearranging who
has what; you have to make at least one person worse off if you benefit
anyone else.

A Pareto nonoptimal state, which is what you get with public goods,
is a condition where you could redistribute wealth and resources and
make every person happier or at least no less happy.  In the case of,
say, recorded music as a public good, the market will not produce
enough music relative to a Pareto optimal state.  Some people would be
willing to pay for more music, and this money would be more than enough
to pay musicians to produce that music.  So there is a redistribution
which would make many people happier without making anyone less happy.

But this redistribution won't happen, under market conditions.  There is
no mechanism to force people to pay when everyone can get music for
free.  And people are not willing to make sufficiently large voluntary
contributions to fund the musicians because they know others are going
to benefit just as much without paying a dime (the free rider problem).
Detailed analysis supports the conclusion that, in general, markets
under-provide public goods relative to a Pareto optimal outcome.

Therefore it is clear that it is quite meaningful to investigate whether
markets produce efficient or non-efficient outcomes in various situations.
There is no tautology involved.




From adam at cypherspace.org  Wed Jul  3 15:33:01 2002
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:33:01 +0100
Subject: personal freedom vs copyright (Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <3D22FD4A.29022.462D533@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 01:34:02PM -0700
References: <035901c222a1$47185050$a36e9cd9@mark> <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207032018130.11276-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.F I> <3D22FD4A.29022.462D533@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020703233301.A1043914@exeter.ac.uk>


There's been some recent discussion of ethics and markets relating to
copyright prompted by the Orwellian sounding overtones of the latest
Microsoft powergrab.

Seems about time to replay my periodic reminder that copyright is not
a black-and-white moral issue, it is merely a societal convention
which given public appetites for file sharing, and extreme difficulty
of preventing the public continuing apace (kazaa has some millions of
users online, with 2 peta-bytes of shared files and growing), it seems
to me that the natural evolution of laws etc would be for the laws
surrounding copyright be revoked as out-dated and no longer
applicable in an era of digital copying.  Without this adjustment
reality and content distribution laws are getting increasingly
out-of-synch, which is going to lead to some probable very undesirable
side effects in more laws further tilting the playing field in the
favor of the big media cartels, and starting to lead to very draconian
and Orwellian systems enforced under force of law.

Copyright is effectively a massive corporate welfare program to the
benefit of the media cartels at this point.  It's a business model
protection racket with the government providing the thugs at no
expense to the business.  No wonder the businesses that benfit from
this want to lobby to maintain this free enforcement corporate welfare
handout.  They get the financial benefits, and don't care about the
negative societal implications, such as described in Stallmann's
prescient essay on the long term implications of the coming brawl.

I don't see that the media cartels -- the main short-term benefactors
and lobbyists of the current and rapidly expanding copyright laws have
any moral right to have these conventions and corporate welfare
continue.  If society just said no, which it would appear of the
internet population they largely are, I think it likely we'd still
have movies, music etc., and that artists would continue to make money
and businesses associated with managing artists works would also make
money; the landscape might look a little different but so what.  Also,
even if one type of business model or content was no longer
economically supported, I can't see how that's a loss, or a bad thing
-- if there is no economic, coercion free model where a business can
provide service to end-users who want that service, then by definition
that service should not exist.

Many of the existing methods of capitalising on content remain without
copyright:

- convenience (if copies on physical media are competitively priced vs
  peoples time to source and download), 
- advertising (compete for placing in order of user preferred downloads)
- live events
- higher spec projection equipment (movie theatre vs home viewing)
- branding - reliability, certified quality (guarantees of download
  speed, bit-rate, resolution audio quality)

So I say scrap copyright now, and let the market sort out which
business models and distribution comapnies surive which new business
models emerge, and then we can avoid the Orwellian power-grab which
will have many freedom destroying and negative societal costs.

Adam
--
http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Jul  3 14:47:29 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:47:29 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
In-Reply-To: <p05111a40b948a3b7bb68@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207032046350.11276-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

>For me, this is all about Coase's theorem, transaction cost, Coase's
>observation that you can't have a market without property,

Quite. Coase's reasoning demonstrated that any initial allocation of
property rights is equivalent (both in the allocative and distributive
senses) when transaction costs amount to nil. So, if we look at the
distribution side of the information industry, you're absolutely right.
The smaller the transaction costs the better -- rivalry applies to any
particular copy, as it does to services involved disseminating the bits.
Any trades required are bilateral, competition does its job and everything
is just dandy.

But if we look at the creation end, that's a different story entirely.
Anyone eventually receiving a copy will benefit roughly equally from the
efforts of the artist/author. If copying and distribution are exceedingly
cheap, as we'd expect them to be in the future, the number of people for
whom acquiring the information would be profitable easily grows to the
tens or hundreds of millions. Since any copy released will be widely
disseminated, the deal between the original author and the public with an
interest in his work will be multilateral in the extreme. It cannot be
reduced into a bunch of bilateral trades as in the case of private
commerce. This means that we get sizable transaction costs. IP is there to
force the economy into something approximating the conventional, material
one, and so internalize externality otherwise generated. (No, it does not
solve the problem. But limited term copyright could still strike a
near-optimal bargain.)

If something, Coase's original point is behind copyright, not its
antithesis. That's why I rarely use economic reasoning to argue for IP
abolition, even when I consider IP a bad idea.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Jul  3 15:26:54 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 01:26:54 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <0a9701c222c0$5f6d0280$a36e9cd9@mark>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207040047440.19095-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Marcel Popescu wrote:

>I can't see a market defined as anything else than "private property and
>voluntary exchange".

Then you really must be blind. Markets not based on private property or
volition abound. The political process is one of them. Social control is
another. Gift economies, like Open Source, are a third. One might claim
most markets are based on something other than the above mentioned
combination.

>Irrelevant. Does Linux scale to your intended target any better?

It does indeed. But unlike movies, Linux is a modular project. The kernel
would exist in the absence of the GNU toolset, and vice versa. X would
exist in the absence of UNIX, too. Each of the common desktop applications
could very well have been coded on top of something else than Linux.

But try constructing an Independence Day without Will Smith. Or the
special effects. Or the soundtrack. Or the distribution chain. Try
guaranteeing that it arrives on schedule without making a loss. I think
you will not be able to accomplish that with a volunteer effort. Try doing
that tens of thousands of times a year (that's for all of what is
currently covered by IP) and you're bound to fail. Unlike with Linux, the
individual parts of most larger projects involving IP are of no use
without the surrounding whole. Unlike Linux, many IP products aren't
modular, reusable or decomposable, and so they can only exist if you can
find a single source of financing for the whole project. In the case of
modular projects, you can rely on overlapping interests to fill in the
voids, but most projects aren't like that. Especially if all that the
creator gets is the ever-diminishing value of a single copy.

Why is it that there's no Buzz for Linux? No decent installer? (Not one of
them survives my hardware...) No workable Unicode support? A stable 64-bit
filesystem? Why is nobody willing to guarantee kernel stability, even when
paid big bucks? 'Cause the project is a gift, and only caters to a single
kind of need: something an individual developer/company really needs and
can afford to develop for him/itself, then losing little by exposing the
code to others. Usefulness thinly spread over a considerable user
community is completely forgotten.

>People do even "grand" things without expecting to be paid (or even
>worse, expecting to die from it), because they want to.

Well, what stupid people they are. I wouldn't go anywhere as far as
gettimg myself killed for the common good. Even paying for software I can
just copy is a stretch. What makes you think most people care enough to Do
the Right Thing? What makes you think relying on Doing the Right Thing is
a good idea? I mean, it's been tried before, and the consequences aren't
worth a second look.

>If you want them to produce more, feel free to pay them. Arguments "I
>don't like that they only produce this much, so YOU should pay them" are
>at least inane.

Indeed they are. So are ones assuming that anything not profitable to a
single person couldn't be to a larger number of individuals. Like most
things, private property rights and economic theory based solely on
bilateral trade are a matter of continuous dispute. It's not that I don't
consider them useful (I do; nowadays you could call me, too, a
libertarian), but taking them as granted isn't the way to go, either.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Jul  3 15:47:25 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 01:47:25 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Hayek was right. Twice.
In-Reply-To: <c35893889e0546789377dd7e1d79e33e@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207040130360.19095-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Anonymous wrote:

>Ignoring market failures (such things as public goods and
>externalities), markets are efficient in the sense that they produce a
>Pareto optimal outcome.

Even if you neglect market failures in the usual sense, an outcome such as
everybody becoming a slave to a single individual is Pareto efficient --
you can't dissolve the situation without hurting the slave owner. Pareto
efficiency talks about allocation, not distribution, and so the latter can
be arbitrarily skewed in a Pareto efficient economy. Even to the point of
apparent absurdity. It's a different thing altogether, then, whether you
can approach such a dismal state of affairs via Pareto moves...

>A Pareto nonoptimal state, which is what you get with public goods, is a
>condition where you could redistribute wealth and resources and make
>every person happier or at least no less happy.

I don't think so. Instead I'd say that is Marshall efficiency in the
absence of transaction costs. The trouble is, you can never make everybody
happier by redistributing since someone will have to pay the cost. (Here
we of course assume that everybody wants more of everything.)

>So there is a redistribution which would make many people happier
>without making anyone less happy.

More to the point, there is a redistribution which would allow the total
amount voluntarily paid by a large number of people exceed the amount a
minority is ready to pay to avert the cost of the redistribution.
(Nowadays I'm thinking this isn't bad in itself, but that amplification of
this sort of pattern via returns to scale is.)

>Therefore it is clear that it is quite meaningful to investigate whether
>markets produce efficient or non-efficient outcomes in various
>situations. There is no tautology involved.

Quite. But on the other hand, public goods reasoning is also a very, very
dangerous thing. Consumption side externalities are my personal favorite.
Suppose there is a considerable personal benefit to rich people in seeing
the average bum spend his money in something respectable instead of
liquor. In this case, liquor consumption has a visible externality, and
optimal provision calls for institutions which more or less tax the rich
and use the proceeds to encourage the bum to straighten up. Now, that
doesn't sound *too* bad in itself, but when you apply the same reasoning
to the educational needs of the young and the societal benefits one would
expect of a highly educated younger generation...

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From specials at 1sourcedeals.com  Thu Jul  4 03:26:34 2002
From: specials at 1sourcedeals.com (Hot Savings)
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From specials at 1sourcedeals.com  Thu Jul  4 03:26:34 2002
From: specials at 1sourcedeals.com (Hot Savings)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 03:26:34 -0700
Subject: Congratulations, Choose Your FREE Baseball Cap from Yourpresent.com
Message-ID: <200207041034.FAB05747@einstein.ssz.com>

Dear Friends, 

This is your 4th and final notice. You've been selected. With #B76185, you can choose a FREE* $24.95 brushed cotton twill 
New Era brand baseball cap from any major league team you choose. But you must click the link below now to collect 
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No other announcements will be sent. 
  
Click the link below to receive a New Era brand baseball cap from any 
major league team you choose. FREE*! 

http://www.1sourcedeals.com/cgi-bin/redirect.cgi?camp_id=14&url=http://members.yourfreepresent.com/membership/membership.plex?home=onesourcemedia-052802BC-7C

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- Official MLB Licensed
- Brushed cotton twill cap with embroidered logo
- One size fits all
- A $24.95 value YOURS FREE*! 

P.S. Please feel free to forward this on to a friend. 
 
*All offers are based on 100% customer satisfaction. Yourfreepresent reserves the right to cancel this offer any time 
once quantities run out. A small shipping and handling charge of $5.93 will be applied to each item. All merchandise 
and offers are based on first come first serve.  Offer not valid in the state of California.
 

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From specials at 1sourcedeals.com  Thu Jul  4 03:26:34 2002
From: specials at 1sourcedeals.com (Hot Savings)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 03:26:34 -0700
Subject: Congratulations, Choose Your FREE Baseball Cap from Yourpresent.com
Message-ID: <200207041025.g64APTVB024328@ak47.algebra.com>

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From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Wed Jul  3 22:38:08 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Thu,  4 Jul 2002 07:38:08 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
Message-ID: <ffcf7a376d7adfc8342bc9b92a3752a8@remailer.privacy.at>


James Donald writes:
> On 3 Jul 2002 at 10:48, xganon wrote:
> > Do you really think that DRM systems could eliminate cypherpunk 
> > applications?  Have you thought this through in detail?  Please 
> > expand on it.
>
> The system as specified is harmless, because it can run anyone's 
> code, and thus can run napster like applications (break once, copy 
> everywhere.)  It also has many useful and valuable privacy
> protecting applications.
>
> However it is a system and set of institutions that can validate 
> that properly authorized code is running, and thus with a 
> relatively minor change can ensure that ONLY properly authorized 
> code may be run -- (Hey, we will protect you from all viruses, and 
> all poorly written code, and all code that facilitates anti social 
> behavior.)

Okay, you are afraid that only "properly authorized" code will run.
Let's talk about one area: programming languages.

What about compilers?  Development systems?  No doubt you'll claim these
will be restricted.  They'll be like assault weapons.  Use a compiler,
go to jail.  This despite the fact that they are necessary tools for
technological progress today.

And what about interpreted languages?  Python, Ruby?  What about Perl?
Seriously: will they ban Perl?  Half the web depends on it!  How can
they keep people from running Perl?

Or do you think that only "properly authorized" Perl scripts will run?
That will never work.  Perl is tweaked all the time; the whole point
of using it is so that you can adapt your site functionality quickly
and easily.

The whole idea of outlawing programming languages and allowing people
to only run software on an approved list is utterly ridiculous.
Custom software is widely used throughout the world for all kinds of
mission critical activities.  Business would never allow the government
to forbid custom software.

People point to guns.  Computer languages aren't anything like guns.
You can ban handguns and it doesn't hurt anyone's business except a
few gun sellers.  Banning custom computer software will drive a stake
through the heart of business innovation and competition.

It's time for cypherpunks to remove their paranoia-colored glasses.
One apocalyptic prediction after another has been proven false.
Even post 9/11 the government floated one timid trial balloon about
possibly restricting crypto, and it was shot down in a hail of criticism
from all directions.

If they can't even ban crypto, you think they'll be able to ban Perl?
People who believe this are utterly disconnected from reality.

To the extent that people fear the TCPA and DRM because they think it will
take us down a path to the mythical state where only approved software
runs, they need to think again.  It can't be done.  Software is infinitely
malleable, and it is this property that makes it so crucially important
in business today.  The government can no more ban unapproved software
than it could require companies to forego the use of computers entirely.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Jul  4 09:22:23 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 09:22:23 -0700
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
In-Reply-To: <ffcf7a376d7adfc8342bc9b92a3752a8@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <3D2413CF.2759.519B04@localhost>


    --
On 4 Jul 2002 at 7:38, Anonymous wrote:
> Okay, you are afraid that only "properly authorized" code will
> run. Let's talk about one area: programming languages.
>
> What about compilers?  Development systems?  No doubt you'll
> claim these will be restricted.  They'll be like assault
> weapons.  Use a compiler, go to jail.  This despite the fact
> that they are necessary tools for technological progress today.

Similar controls are applied on biotech, severely impeding
biotechnology progress.   There are lots of people who just plain
do not like progress, precisely because it is likely to upset the
status quo.  Lots of people say biotechnology makes women
infertile, causes the cows milk to dry up, all the usual
accusations that were made about witchcraft.

The Chinese government was alarmed by paper and printing 1900
years ago, and made it a state monopoly and state secret, so that
it was only used by official people for official things.  Five
hundred years ago it became alarmed by the potential of ocean
going ships, cannon, and compass, and put an end to ocean going
ships, and so on and so forth.

> Or do you think that only "properly authorized" Perl scripts
> will run? That will never work.  Perl is tweaked all the time;
> the whole point of using it is so that you can adapt your site
> functionality quickly and easily.

Tweaking is hacking, hackers are evil, and must be punished for
their sins.

> The whole idea of outlawing programming languages and allowing
> people to only run software on an approved list is utterly
> ridiculous. Custom software is widely used throughout the world
> for all kinds of mission critical activities.  Business would
> never allow the government to forbid custom software.

Businesses would get licenses not available to individuals.  It
would be like medicine, reserved for special approved people.

> People point to guns.  Computer languages aren't anything like
> guns. You can ban handguns and it doesn't hurt anyone's business
> except a few gun sellers.  Banning custom computer software will
> drive a stake through the heart of business innovation and
> competition.

Most businesses do not want innovation and competition, and most
governments do not want it and do not permit it. You do not
realize how extraordinary and unusual the USA is in permitting
comparatively free innovation and competition.   In most countries
you cannot even rent out laptops without a permit.  If you cannot
rent out laptops without a permit, why should you be allowed to
program outside a sandbox without a permit?

As soon as a sandbox is available, there will be a movement to
restrict all unauthorized people to that sandbox.

Most governments in the rest of the world see the innovation
coming out of the US as a form of aggression and imperialism, and
they are angry about it and want it to stop.

> It's time for cypherpunks to remove their paranoia-colored
> glasses. One apocalyptic prediction after another has been
> proven false. Even post 9/11 the government floated one timid
> trial balloon about possibly restricting crypto, and it was shot
> down in a hail of criticism from all directions.

The SSSCA appears to have similarly sunk, but "anti circumvention
laws" were not, neither were "privacy" laws that prohibit some
forms of privacy, nor overly broad anti hacking laws. The camels
nose is in the tent, even if there is no immediate danger of the
rest of the camel.  COPA and the rest of that alphabet soup with
"Children" in the title are still on the books.  Businesses have
found ways around them, and there is no vigorous enforcement, but
eventually congress will come back for another bite, and close the
loopholes.

> If they can't even ban crypto, you think they'll be able to ban
> Perl?

They cannot ban crypto without first banning Perl.  That was the
point of the Crypto-on-a-T-Shirt movement.  Obvious solution.
First ban Perl, then ban crypto ten years later.  After all, why
would anyone want to use Perl unless they are running a web site?
If just anyone is allowed to run a web site, they can do all kinds
of scams and push all kinds of lies.  Besides which hacking will
make the cow's milk dry up.

> To the extent that people fear the TCPA and DRM because they
> think it will take us down a path to the mythical state where
> only approved software runs, they need to think again.  It can't
> be done.  Software is infinitely malleable, and it is this
> property that makes it so crucially important in business today.

Approved businesses will get licenses, and will be very happy that
there is one more hurdle for potential competitors to jump over.
If you are running a long established business, rather than
starting a new one, the more regulation the better.  After all, we
cannot risk the cow's milk drying up.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     d9PIH31teeAWscL+PT9c3fd8hA2wyFLNnFSCsdMq
     2lna9XnSiut372FRyn3baSiqMWZPAuJRA+x7kynJ8




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Jul  4 09:22:23 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 09:22:23 -0700
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207041038320.4468-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI
  >
References: <3D232506.25122.4FE0B17@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D2413CF.8489.519AAA@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > Again, If you offered the average guy the deal "Would you like 
> > on demand access to all movies and television shows ever made, 
> > even if it meant fewer and lower budget movie releases in 
> > future?", I think most people would go for on demand access to 
> > everything.

 On 4 Jul 2002 at 10:40, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> That might well be. But being that you're tapping into something 
> largely produced under existing copyright law, I fail to see why 
> this is an argument against continuing the practice of copyright 
> in some form.

A moment ago you were arguing maximum utility (your public good 
argument)  Now you concede utility, and argue rights, but 
copyright, unlike real property, is merely a conventional right, 
created by the will and power of the state, not a natural right.

If that convention ceases to be convenient and useful, ceases to 
have utility, we should not continue it.

And if you are going to argue from long established conventional 
rights, copyright has been extended by twenty years every twenty 
years, so it is not a long established conventional right.

Returning to your public good argument.  As more and more stuff 
piles up, the production of new stuff becomes a less and less 
valuable public good.  At the same time, as with any "public 
good", congress (being in the pocket of state created interest 
groups) creates greater and greater incentives to produce more and 
more of this public good.

If an anarchic free market underproduces public goods, government 
subject to interest groups overproduces public goods, a problem 
that is particularly serious with such dubious public goods as 
"defense", cultural or racial purity, and so on and so forth. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     AuUb5hhEidar6RcqijVgtwYwp/KmvStrc0T7DzHr
     2RvexEhEvdWrbHJCBYyEdaMKK39UOJQJRBt9gjbKk




From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Jul  4 09:39:00 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 09:39:00 -0700
Subject: We have always been at war with Oceania
Message-ID: <3D247A24.5C52666E@cdc.gov>


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=703&e=1&u=/ap/20020704/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_drug_flights_1

President Bush ( news - web sites) is expected to allow resumption of a
program to force down  or
   shoot down  airplanes suspected of carrying drugs in Latin America,
a senior administration official
   said Thursday.


Does Mr. Bush understand tit-for-tat?   Hasn't he figured out that he
can bust all the petty hawalas he
wants, but the Cartels have *cash* to spend, an excellent distribution
network, and a few submarines?
Looking for True Believers speaking spanish...

Maybe the Saudis will start taking planes out for carrying ethanol...




From msarela at cc.hut.fi  Thu Jul  4 00:25:52 2002
From: msarela at cc.hut.fi (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mikko_S=E4rel=E4?=)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:25:52 +0300 (EET DST)
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207040047440.19095-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.F
  I>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10207041021030.13003-100000@kosh.hut.fi>


On Thu, 4 Jul 2002, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> But try constructing an Independence Day without Will Smith. Or the
> special effects. Or the soundtrack. Or the distribution chain. Try
> guaranteeing that it arrives on schedule without making a loss. 

Luckily movie industry will not be hit by the free distribution as bad as
music industry. This is because a major portion of their money comes from
people going to cinema to see the movies. They don't do that because they
don't have a copy at home, but because they wish to see it in a big screen
with awsome sound effects. And that is something we just don't have yet in
every house - and something that will be a big investment for a long time.

And digitilizing will reduce movie makers costs for transferring the
movies to the theaters as well, giving them another edge there. That
allows one to go for a global premiers and gather enough payers in the
first week to pay for the movie.

Now music industry has concentrated in bringing music to peoples homes,
and they will be in trouble when people start getting all their music from
internet for free. There are nice ways of getting around this as well, as
some have pointed around - market will provide...

-- 
Mikko        "One Ring to rule them all,
              One Ring to find them,
              One Ring to bring them all
              And in the Darkness bind them."




From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Jul  4 00:40:20 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:40:20 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <3D232506.25122.4FE0B17@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207041038320.4468-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>Again, If you offered the average guy the deal "Would you like on demand
>access to all movies and television shows ever made, even if it meant
>fewer and lower budget movie releases in future?", I think most people
>would go for on demand access to everything.

That might well be. But being that you're tapping into something largely
produced under existing copyright law, I fail to see why this is an
argument against continuing the practice of copyright in some form.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From decoy at iki.fi  Thu Jul  4 01:43:24 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:43:24 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <20020703232350.A23182@seul.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207041043010.4468-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

>Property does not always consist of physical goods.

Of course not. Am I not making this precise point?

>To use some of your examples, the polical process involves votes, which
>are the property of the person casting the ballots, likewise, at least
>in this country, ballots are cast voluntarily.

However, that sort of property isn't anywhere near the kind one would
expect of a free market commodity -- it isn't severable. You can't legally
sell or buy votes.

>Time and effort are both considered "property" to be used as deemed fit
>by the person possessing, in this case, the skills to use them on an
>Open Source

What can I say, barter in time and effort is probably the best sign of a
gift economy in action.

>I can't think many things more modular than movies, except perhaps
>theatre, but movies have even more latitude. Actors can't be switched?
>Sets can't be constructed out of "nothing" on a computer screen?

Of course they can. However, not one of those parts is useful in itself.
You don't sell a set without the actors, or vice versa. That's the
problem. With Linux, each individual utility is useful in itself. If
someone needs the functionality, one just codes it and releases. In many
cases that's a few days work, and a good part of the benefit goes to the
coder himself. Consider then something like a novel. It's not very useful
if you tear out the last 50 or so pages, is it? Whoever is making and
paying for the effort (perhaps with his time, as is the case with
volunteer projects) has to be willing to invest enough to finish the work
before it acquires real value. That value is then thinly spread over a
considerable number of readers many of whom have to be willing to pay for
the effort if the novel is to come to being in the first place. When I
talk about modularity, I talk about it in the economic sense of
divisibility, not the technical one of being able to create a single act
of a play, a movie set, a Java class or an actor's performance in
isolation. The trouble with public goods comes around when no single
person is willing to pay for the whole project, but a million or so in
toto would be, barring transaction costs from things like freeriding. If
you grok it, I can't help you.

>Movies can't be made with virtually no budget?

Hollywood blockbusters? Hardly. That was what I was talking about from the
start. Besides, I do know a couple of Finnish low budget directors. Only
rarely do I find the tenacity to actually delve into their work. Money
isn't everything in movies, either, but it's still a lot.

>As someone who actually helps people with unix problems and who is a
>unix user, I want to let you know that you fall into the "stupid user"
>category if you can't get a linux distro to install on your computer.

First, there is nothing wrong with being a "stupid user". Stupid users are
who software is mostly for, aren't they. Second, it's not the whole
install, it's details like getting X to work with a nonstandard display
memory config. I'm not exactly unknowledgeable about software, but I'm no
kernel hacker either. Do you think most people should be?

>Throw in the fact that "usefulness" is an entirely relative term, and
>you have a really poor argument.

Throw in the fact that this precise relativity is what the whole of
economics revolves around, and the table turns quite nicely.

>Often the economic argument made is that people do what is in their best
>interest. The problem that arises is when people who aren't very bright
>(hint, hint) assume that that means financial reward of some kind.

Did I somehow limit the question to money? If so, that's certainly not all
that I meant. The economics of public goods apply perfectly well to
nonfinancial compensation.

In fact, copyrights do not have anything to do with money, per se, only
with the establishment of a property right in abstract things. If people
behave the way you seem to think they do, we will slide into a
nonfinancial information economy even in the presence of copyright; Coase
was brought into this, and it's still relevant. If you start from the
normal assumptions relating to laissez-faire economics, you'll also assume
transaction costs to be negligible and a stable, unique equilibrium to
exist, in which case any initial allocation of property rights will lead
to the precise same outcome.

>Well, libertarians usually, though not always, go along with free
>markets, which is not what you're advocating.

Actually I'm not advocating a whole lot, here. Right now I'm mostly making
a point about public goods and Coase's theorem, and their connection to
the institution of intellectual property rights. As I said, I'm an IP
abolitionist and free-marketeer myself.

>Usually, any economic theory that assumes that anything could have no
>value to anyone is wrong.

But if you read what I've posted so far a bit more carefully, you'll see
that that is not at all what I've assumed.

>Bilateral trade is the only kind of exchange in a free market
>enviroment. As long as the exchange is made freely and willingly [...]
>it is always bilateral.

Not true. A simple example would be people shunning someone in opposition
of their (mostly) shared moral code. This is a typical example of
publicness (everyone has to gain by still interacting with the shunned
individual) and some of its civil counter-forces (morality) in action.
Examples of trade which are necessarily multilateral are everywhere if
you're just willing to look. The interesting part is how to cheaply get
around the extra costs incurred by the setting. You're not helping a whole
lot in that department.

>[...] (government regulation produces a bias, always.) [...]

True. But the issue only gets interesting when you can explain why, and
also why the market does (or doesn't do) better.

(I'm also thinking it's high time for me to shut up.)

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul  4 12:01:07 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:01:07 -0700
Subject: Protection of Ideas
In-Reply-To: <1a7f898529d17c6edd1ffdb2830feb76@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <65E9F218-8F80-11D6-BCE6-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, July 1, 2002, at 01:10  PM, Anonymous wrote:
> Brilliant.  Let the market solve the problem.  Why bother with the 
> auction
> part, then?  If the market's going to solve the problem for the 2nd guy
> to hold the copy, why not let it solve the problem for the 1st?  The 
> fact
> is, quoting this mantra is simply a way of avoiding the hard issues.
> You've got to show *how* the market is going to solve the problem.
> Why would content creators get "a lot of money, cash"?  Obviously, only
> if your #2 guy knows that he is also going to get a lot of money for it.
> So you haven't taken a step towards solving the problem; you have simply
> handed the problem off from #1 to #2.
>
> The fact is that the market can't solve this kind of problem.  That's
> right, markets are not perfect.  They do fine for ordinary, private
> goods.  But information objects, absent successful DRM restrictions,
> are effectively public goods.  That is, you can't restrict their
> dissemination.  If you try to provide such goods only to a small group
> of people, you've effectively given them to everyone.

Ideas are not generally protected in any major society.

(Certain _expressions_ of ideas are protected in specialized ways 
through the copyright and patent systems, which vary from society to 
society. But not general ideas.)

People generate ideas. Ideas are usually much more important than 
specific copyrighted items or even specific patented items are. When 
someone writes a book, with lines of reasoning, new ideas, summaries of 
old ideas, those ideas are not protected intellectual property.

Likewise, fashion and architecture and styles in general are not 
protected. (Attempts have been made, especially with the "look and feel" 
nonsense, but generally anyone is free to copy the "idea" of a 
miniskirt, or red tennis shoes, or skyscrapers.

Could ideas even plausibly be protected? The Galombosians, a fringe 
subset of libertarians, argue that ideas are protectable in this way. 
"You were influenced by my paper on crypto anarchy, so you owe me $25."

>
> This idea of digital content as a public good is developed in detail at
> http://www.tidbits.com/tb-issues/TidBITS-602.html#lnk5.

Ideas are even better examples of public goods. A good idea benefits 
many people, few or none of whom ever pay for the idea. Good ideas are 
in fact more important than nearly anything else. This has nothing to do 
with whether they should (or can) be protected as intellectual 
property...or subsidized by government, as I'll get to later.
>

> Markets do not handle public goods well.  It is a standard theorem of
> economics that they underprovide public goods.  There is no way to 
> charge
> for goods that everyone can get for free, and ideas like Kelsey and
> Schneier's Street Performer protocol don't work because of free riders.

Apply this reasoning to the general world of ideas and arguments.

Or, more prosaically, to mathematical proofs. Should we start charging 
for mathematical proofs? Should someone planning to use a chain of 
proofs pay a fee for the various lemmas and theorems he cites or uses?

> The traditional way to provide for public goods is by government.

No it isn't. People paint paintings even when the vast bulk of them 
never sell anything. (Even well-known painters like Paul Gaugain never 
made more than a few francs from his paintings...his fame came after his 
death. Examples like this abound.)

Most actors don't make enough money to qualify for their union. Most 
writers never sell _anything_.

Some of these works are used by others, inspire others, even are later 
sold by others.

Altruism? Have I written upwards of 20,000 articles on this list and 
others. At least some of them were and are useful for other people. And 
yet was I paid?  Was I generating a public good? Should I have demanded 
that government finance my generation of these public goods?



> If we don't get DRM, that's probably what we will end up with: 
> government
> subsidies of the arts.

About 20 years ago the American program "60 Minutes" did a nice piece on 
how the Dutch government, using reasoning identical to yours,  was 
paying artists a stipend for their artistic output. Warehouses and 
warehouses were being filled with the crud generated by these subsidized 
artists.

> Most musicians and other artists won't be able to
> make enough money to live on even if their works are relatively popular.

So? Not my problem.

After all, most would-be writers and actors can't make enough money on 
their ideas and artistic expression to live on without also working as 
waiters and waitresses and driving trucks.


> The government will have to tax consumers and distribute the proceeds
> to artists (and the RIAA, etc) in order to protect the content industry.

And to fill warehouses with CDs no one wants, with paintings no one 
wants, with stages where actors perform plays for each other because the 
public won't voluntarily pay, and with software programs which the 
market didn't want.
>
> This is the true alternative to DRM.  Anyone who respects the power of
> markets should understand that DRM is the key to allowing markets to
> function with information goods.  If you oppose DRM, you are working
> to insure that creative content will become a public good.  And if you
> understand econmics, you will see that this is an outcome to be avoided
> if at all possible.

I have no problem with Microsoft or Apple or Autodesk attempting to 
protect their IP by requiring that I buy a dongle from them to attach to 
my computer, or that I provide a palmprint or retinal scan before their 
programs run. If they can do it, and get customers to go along, hey, 
it's a free country! People who are willing to mess with the dongles, or 
attach a palm scanner, or jump through whatever hoops the vendor is 
asking for will be doing so voluntarily. Those who won't, won't. Sounds 
fair to me.

(In fact, dongles have been tried. And may be tried again, as USB and 
FireWire make use of such dongles less awkward. It's a free country, so 
Digital Datawhack is free to do as they wish along these lines.)

However, it is NOT a function of a legitimate minimal government to 
*require* that I buy a computer with certain features.

To the extent the Hollywood-led push to adopt some form of DRM is very 
likely to also be a government _requirement_ for DRM, we should fight 
it. From what I have seen, the interests of Hollywood, Redmond, 
Washington, Beijing, and Moscow in DRM are coterminous.



--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Jul  4 12:54:51 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:54:51 -0700
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
In-Reply-To: <3D248180.9A41DE78@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <3D24459B.9427.1141E72@localhost>


    --
On 4 Jul 2002 at 10:10, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
> Nations register xerox machines.  They confiscate radio
> receivers. They can close down the media.  They require location
> tech in cell phones.  They require CALEA in telco switches. They
> bust machinists who make guns as a hobby. Sure, bits can be
> copied and stored a lot easier. Deploying them isn't so easy.
> Look at the pedo-image busts.

While deploying them is not easy, neither is stopping them.  I
recently downloaded everything in the anime.multimedia newsgroup.
I got a handful of anime movies and a huge collection of non anime
images of preteen female children engaged in a variety of sexual
acts, presumably because the newsgroup
binaries.pictures.erotica.preteen.female gets poor distribution.

The government's ability to coerce is limited.  They will not go
over the top, and attempt measures requiring a totalitarian state,
but at the same time they are probing around, looking for measures
where they can get substantial affects at acceptable levels of
coercion. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Qb8Zpd5gsEOfBQf8F4TilhD/omGt4K22z648UPfr
     2icW83/avg4aE/oPfes5a10T0vmSqOZ0u1R+ZLyuX




From ryan at havenco.com  Thu Jul  4 05:54:51 2002
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:54:51 +0000
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
In-Reply-To: <ffcf7a376d7adfc8342bc9b92a3752a8@remailer.privacy.at>
References: <ffcf7a376d7adfc8342bc9b92a3752a8@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <20020704125451.GA8289@leopard.venona.net>


Quoting Anonymous <nobody at remailer.privacy.at>:

> Okay, you are afraid that only "properly authorized" code will run.
> Let's talk about one area: programming languages.
> 
> What about compilers?  Development systems?  No doubt you'll claim these
> will be restricted.  They'll be like assault weapons.  Use a compiler,
> go to jail.  This despite the fact that they are necessary tools for
> technological progress today.

Basically, the concern I have is not that any *particular* end-user developed
application, in a post-DRM/TCPA world, will be rendered illegal, but that
the core of the machine will be modified such that a remote attacker
can deploy targeted or general sniffer/reporter trojans.  If you remove
the ability to compute in secret, with all communications widely .

The code which will be "illegal" on a DRM/TCPA/etc. machine, which
would actually be illegal if only those machines existed (which can be
done through restrictions on sales of new machines, or just special
kinds of I/O), is anything whihc can circumvent this DRM microkernel.  The DRM
microkernel will inevitably be implemented in a non-transparent way, 
allowing remote attackers superuser over OS-superuser access.

Switching to machines with one local root and lots of dumb terminals
would be roughly the same, except users have more explicit knowledge of
the power of root, and some influence over the selection of that root.

Simply eliminating the ability of most users to have a locally-secure
fully trusted execution environment, with processing, intermediate
storage protected from tampering or disclosure, etc., and network
communications, will kill cypherpunk applications.  If any cypherpunk
application requires the users to jump through hoops to get a reasonable
hardware platform, vs. just using a normal PC on his desk, there is
a bit of difficulty -- it's hard enough to get cypherpunk applications
deployed today, even without such restrictions.

It's possible the system will be designed to prevent remote control
at the microkernel level, but then the signed OS required to deal with
signed media objects on a daily basis, which most users will require,
may support this functionality.  Since this code will be signed, third
party patches will be prohibited.

--
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]        ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.        +44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away   http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From AC8BA31C-BC70-4E6D-8FE4-8B884086C346 at mail.d605.com  Thu Jul  4 16:01:14 2002
From: AC8BA31C-BC70-4E6D-8FE4-8B884086C346 at mail.d605.com (AC8BA31C-BC70-4E6D-8FE4-8B884086C346 at mail.d605.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 16:01:14 -0700
Subject: Research information for car owners..
Message-ID: <SERVER1LuSbh29cM3or00011500@mail.r607.com>

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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul  4 16:42:46 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 16:42:46 -0700
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
In-Reply-To: <3D233789.1C610288@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <BDF783F3-8FA7-11D6-BCE6-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 10:42  AM, Michael Motyka wrote:

> Tim May <tcmay at got.net> wrote :
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 08:50  AM, Michael Motyka wrote:
>>> IIRC many of the wealthy were quick enough to ship huge amounts of 
>>> gold
>>> to Europe. That is one reason I have heard given that the St Gauden's
>>> $20 gold pices of that era are possibly poor investments - there is a
>>> reservoir of them overseas.
>>
>> But St. Gaudens coins were readily available during the time when gold
>> ownership was banned.
>>
>> (Let me be overly careful: They were purchasable from coin stores and
>> mail order places in the mid-1960s. I know because I used to see them
>> listed at a price I clearly remember: $49.50.)
>>
>> I assume they did not just suddenly become available at the time I
>> happened to be paying attention, and that they were purchasable in 
>> 1960,
>> 1950, 1940, etc. The exemption for numismatic value, of course.
>>
> The opinion I am repeating ( not mine, but seems plausible ) is that the
> supply of numismatic quality St. Gauden's may be such that the current
> premiums are not justified.

A different issue. I have no idea if the current premiums are too low, 
too high, or about right. My point was to cite the ready availability of 
St. Gaudens (and also the less artistic Liberty) gold pieces in the 
1960s, and presumably earlier, as strong evidence that such coins did 
not have to be smuggled away to Europe or hidden. They were, all 
indications point out, exempted by the numismatic exemption.

>
>> Owning coins for collector, or numismatic, value, is of course a
>> different kettle of fish than owning gold as bullion.
>>
> The premium over the bullion value is a very large component of the
> price.

Yeah, so? That's precisely why owning such coins is a numismatic issue.
>

> I've tried to learn a bit about coin collecting but I find myself
> hesitant to plunge right into it. It's just like any other "investment",
> subject to bubbles, busts and shady operators. I don't know enough to
> feel comfortable with it.

Sounds like you shouldn't do it, then. Which would be wise on your part, 
in my opinion.

--Tim May
--
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/ML/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Recent interests: category theory, toposes, algebraic topology




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul  4 15:26:11 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 17:26:11 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Hacktivismo to Release Steganography Tool
Message-ID: <3D24CB83.DA629FC3@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/04/1930253.shtml?tid=146
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul  4 15:29:58 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 17:29:58 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Animated Encryption
Message-ID: <3D24CC66.585077F7@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/04/1626257.shtml?tid=93
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Thu Jul  4 17:49:08 2002
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:49:08 -0700
Subject: Need voluntary/optional TCPA/Palladium quote
Message-ID: <004c01c223bd$c6c84540$6401a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>


I am looking for a quote by a TCPA or Palladium principal that states
that TCPA and/or Palladium will be voluntary or optional. Google was not
helpful. Did anybody on here run across such a quote in one of the
interviews recently published? Please include the URL/citation.

TIA,
--Lucky




From sowand at zipmail.com  Thu Jul  4 17:49:28 2002
From: sowand at zipmail.com (Andrew Sowho)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:49:28 -0700
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <200207041649.g64Gnhu02992@waste.minder.net>



I am Andrew Sowho, We have not had the pleasure of each others acquaintance but I hope this will be remedied soon.
I am in search of an Investment Manager who can invest and manage the sum of Sixteen Million United States Dollars into a viable endeavour, capable of yielding reasonable annual return as profit on principal amount invested.
Given the antecedent of the ownership of the fuuds.I need someone who can clear the funds into his/her account , carry out the actual business and remit profit to my account without trouble.For avoidance of doubt, I require someone to be my eyes,ears and hands , someone who is reliable and trustworthy and above all cautious.
should you be interested and capable please contact me via email for further details.
I will not contact anyother person until I hear from you.





From jayh at 1st.net  Thu Jul  4 15:55:01 2002
From: jayh at 1st.net (Jay Jay)
Date: Thu,  4 Jul 2002 18:55:01 -0400
Subject: Protection of Ideas
Message-ID: <200207041855.AA348389472@1st.net>


People seem to overlook that throughout most of human history (as well as most indigenous societies), 'artists' had productive day jobs and did their creative work out of personal desire.

By and large, the concept that people should make a good living simply by creating art is a modern aberration.

jay
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Tim May <tcmay at got.net>
Date:  Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:01:07 -0700

>After all, most would-be writers and actors can't make enough money on 
>their ideas and artistic expression to live on without also working as 
>waiters and waitresses and driving trucks.
>
> 




________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at 1st.net




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Thu Jul  4 17:14:36 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:14:36 -0500
Subject: [OT] why was private gold ownership made illegal in the US?
In-Reply-To: <BDF783F3-8FA7-11D6-BCE6-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3D233789.1C610288@lsil.com>
  <BDF783F3-8FA7-11D6-BCE6-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020705001436.GA6017@cybershamanix.com>


On Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 04:42:46PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> 
> >I've tried to learn a bit about coin collecting but I find myself
> >hesitant to plunge right into it. It's just like any other "investment",
> >subject to bubbles, busts and shady operators. I don't know enough to
> >feel comfortable with it.
> 
> Sounds like you shouldn't do it, then. Which would be wise on your part, 
> in my opinion.
> 
   Investing in anything with a non-intrinsic value, i.e., art, coins, antiques,
stocks, etc., is possibly worthwhile in good times, money can be made. The
collection can become almost worthless overnight, however, and even
life-threatening, say, should the situation become so dangerous that flight is
the best chance, but one can't bear to leave the fortune in antique furniture. A
collection of rare antique Colts might be quite pleasurable (and profitable) to
own, but cases of AK-47s hidden away in a remote bunker a better investment.
    If whatever you invest in depends upon a goodly supply of well-to-do buyers
to maintain it's worth, you could become destitute overnight. Or, as the
Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers always said, "Dope will get you thru times of no
money better than money will get you thru times of no dope."

-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul  4 19:27:15 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:27:15 -0700
Subject: Need voluntary/optional TCPA/Palladium quote
In-Reply-To: <004c01c223bd$c6c84540$6401a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>
Message-ID: <B8DC86FC-8FBE-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, July 4, 2002, at 05:49  PM, Lucky Green wrote:

> I am looking for a quote by a TCPA or Palladium principal that states
> that TCPA and/or Palladium will be voluntary or optional. Google was not
> helpful. Did anybody on here run across such a quote in one of the
> interviews recently published? Please include the URL/citation.

And even if such a quote is found, such a promise will not be legally 
binding.

We should be very worried about the news that Intel and AMD are already 
signing up to include some form of DRM or BBI (Big Brother Inside) 
"rights enforcement" circuitry in future chips. (If MS provided the 
specs separately to Intel and AMD, and perhaps other vendors of CPUs, 
then perhaps no violations of the antitrust laws occurred. If, however, 
Intel and AMD got together and came to an agreement on what BBI 
circuitry to include, this almost certainly would violate the Sherman, 
Clayton, etc. Acts. While I am not a fan of antitrust laws, we may want 
to use them to stop spyware from being included in CPUs.)

Some have argued that such circuitry is harmless so long as it is 
"voluntary."

I disagree. It's a dangerous as builders includng video cameras in homes 
with the proviso that the video signal would only be used to enforce 
agreed-upon uses of products...or with a court order from the government.

Though this is only speculation at this point (few of us, least of all 
me, have the inside track on what Microsoft, Intel, and AMD are 
plotting, or what the discussions with Congress, the NSA, HomeSec, and 
the FBI have covered), I think building in Big Brother is dangerous no 
matter what "promises" or "assurances" have been given.

"The cyanide release mechanisms adopted voluntarily by the National 
Homebuilding Association and the Zoning Approval Boards represent no 
threat to law-abiding Americans. Release of cyanide requires a valid 
court order signed by at least a GS-9 employee."

Last time Intel tried to activate its CPU BBI circuitry, AMD very 
publicly said "We won't do it!" and Intel backed down. From what is 
dribbling out of Redmond and D.C. this time around, it looks like AMD 
has been convinced (by who?) to include DRM/BBI spyware in future CPUs.

These vendors have _probably_ (I am speculating) received assurance that 
spyware will be _mandated_, to head off exactly the kind of 
egg-on-its-face problem Intel experienced. In game theory terms, none of 
the vendors look forward to having a competitor "defect" and then tout 
their "we won't spy on your computer" CPU. They must all hang together, 
or hang separately.

I expect it will be "voluntary mandatory."

(I remain skeptical about stopping piracy, for other reasons.)

--Tim May (Mandatory Voluntary Internet Self-Rating Follows)
V-CHIP CONTENT WARNING: THIS POST IS RATED: R, V, NPC, RI, S, I13.
[For processing by the required-by-1998 V-chips, those reading this post
from an archive must set their V-chip to "42-0666." I will not be held
responsible for posts incorrectly filtered-out by a V-chip that has been
by-passed, hot-chipped, or incorrectly programmed.]

***WARNING!*** It has become necessary to warn potential readers of my
messages before they proceed further. This warning may not fully protect 
me
against criminal or civil proceedings, but it may be treated as a 
positive
attempt to obey the various and increasing numbers of laws.

* Under the ***TELECOM ACT OF 1996***, minor CHILDREN (under the age of 
18)
may not read or handle this message under any circumstances. If you are
under 18, delete this message NOW. Also, if you are developmentally
disabled, irony-impaired, emotionally traumatized, schizophrenic, 
suffering
PMS, affected by Humor Deprivation Syndrom (HDS), or under the care of a
doctor, then the TELECOM ACT OF 1996 may apply to you as well, even if 
you
are 18. If you fall into one of these categories and are not considered
competent to judge for yourself what you are reading, DELETE this message
NOW.

* Under the UTAH PROTECTION OF CHILDREN ACT OF 1996, those under the age 
of
21 may not read this post. All residents of Utah, and Mormons elsewhere,
must install the M-Chip.

* Under the PROTECTION OF THE REICH laws, residents of Germany may not 
read
this post.

* Under the MERCIFUL SHIELD OF ALLAH (Praise be to Him!) holy
interpretations of the Koran of the following countries (but not limited 
to
this list) you may not read this post if you are a FEMALE OF ANY AGE: 
Iran,
Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Egypt, Jordan,
Sudan, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Algeria, Lebanon, Morocco, Tunisia,
Yemen, Oman, Syria, Bahrain, and the Palestinian Authority. Non-female
persons may also be barred from reading this post, depending on the
settings of your I-Chip.

* Under the proposed CHINESE INTERNET laws, covering The People's 
Republic
of China, Formosa, Hong Kong, Macao, Malaysia, and parts of several
surrrounding territories, the rules are so nebulous and unspecified 
that I
cannot say whether you are allowed to read this. Thus, you must SUBMIT 
any
post you wish to read to your local authorities for further filtering.

* In Singapore, merely be RECEIVING this post you have violated the will 
of
Lee Kwan Yu. Report to your local police office to receive your caning.

* Finally, if you are barrred from contact with the Internet, or 
protected
by court order from being disturbed by thoughts which may disturb you, or
covered by protective orders, it is up to you to adjust the settings of
your V-Chip to ensure that my post does not reach you.

*** THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE IN COMPLYING WITH THESE LAWS ***




From saebyul_international at yahoo.co.kr  Thu Jul  4 03:48:20 2002
From: saebyul_international at yahoo.co.kr (SAEBYUL International)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:48:20 +0900
Subject: Best Products of Korea(Awarded by Korean Government)
Message-ID: <200207041057.FAA06253@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Jul  4 21:30:15 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 21:30:15 -0700
Subject: Piracy is wrong
In-Reply-To: <5a0ae83ef5831c4142b10409810a4891@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3D24BE67.10046.15D6E40@localhost>


    --
 On 5 Jul 2002 at 3:10, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Suppose you know someone who has been working for years on a
> novel. But he lacks confidence in his work and he's never shown
> it to anyone. Finally you persuade him to let you look at a copy
> of his manuscript, but he makes you promise not to show any of
> it to anyone else.
>
> Hopefully it is clear in this situation that no one is doing
> anything "evil".  Even though he is giving you the document with
> conditions beyond those specified in the current regime of
> copyright, he is not taking advantage of you.  Even though you
> hold the bits to his manuscript and he has put limitations on
> what you can do with them, he is not coercing you. You
> voluntarily accepted those conditions as part of the agreement
> under which you received the document.
>
> It should also be clear that it would be ethically wrong for you
> to take the manuscript and show it to other people.  Even if you
> take an excerpt, as allowed under "fair use" exemptions to
> copyright protection, and include it in a document for
> commentary or review purposes, that would be a violation of your
> promise.  This example demonstrates that when two people reach a
> mutual agreement about how they will handle some information,
> they are ethically bound by it even beyond the regulations of
> copyright law.

Let us make a more realistic supposition:

Let us suppose instead he organized an entertainment where a
lightly clad singer sang and danced, and showed that video on
television interspersed with advertisments, and I then captured
that video on my hard disk, deleted the ads, and put it on the
internet.

In that case, where is my promise?  Doubtless I must have made it
in the same moment of forgetfulness as I signed the social
contract. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     bAhnMLd4HxDL/1pvlkk6Ga1VpR1eMM5jp1ff+rbD
     2k/NTfC76YawZx8bnVYHGPHiRnNt5axoRlaDUDJP8




From iang at systemics.com  Thu Jul  4 19:29:06 2002
From: iang at systemics.com (Ian Grigg)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 22:29:06 -0400
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
References: <p05111a34b949879a2416@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <3D250472.1AED6883@systemics.com>


> But try constructing an Independence Day without Will Smith. Or the
> special effects. Or the soundtrack. Or the distribution chain. Try
> guaranteeing that it arrives on schedule without making a loss. I think
> you will not be able to accomplish that with a volunteer effort. Try doing
> that tens of thousands of times a year (that's for all of what is
> currently covered by IP) and you're bound to fail. Unlike with Linux, the
> individual parts of most larger projects involving IP are of no use
> without the surrounding whole. Unlike Linux, many IP products aren't
> modular, reusable or decomposable, and so they can only exist if you can
> find a single source of financing for the whole project. In the case of
> modular projects, you can rely on overlapping interests to fill in the
> voids, but most projects aren't like that. Especially if all that the
> creator gets is the ever-diminishing value of a single copy.

I find myself compelled to advertise :-)

http://www.iang.org/papers/task_market.html
addreses this, and whilst the above comments
are highly applicable, I believe there are
ways forward.

See also the work of Eric Hughes, John Walker,
the AMIX, Robin Hanson and others.

> ... Why is nobody willing to guarantee kernel stability, even when
> paid big bucks?

Well, the problem is that you are asking too
much of one OS.  If you want stability, use
FreeBSD (we do).  If you want security, check
out OpenBSD.  If you want portability, try
NetBSD.

If you want to have fun, then Linux is good,
so I hear, but serious business finds itself
unsatisfied.  Mind you, it is getting a whole
lot better!

> >People do even "grand" things without expecting to be paid (or even
> >worse, expecting to die from it), because they want to.
> 
> Well, what stupid people they are. I wouldn't go anywhere as far as
> gettimg myself killed for the common good. Even paying for software I can
> just copy is a stretch. What makes you think most people care enough to Do
> the Right Thing? What makes you think relying on Doing the Right Thing is
> a good idea? I mean, it's been tried before, and the consequences aren't
> worth a second look.

We've had a lot of success with open source.

My company published the Cryptix java library
back in '96, for purely selfish reasons.
Since then, a team of volunteers (including
our own people) have produced lots of versions,
and kept it moderately up to date.  (It's a
bit quiet now, the lists are down, giving
evidence of the unreliability of the open
source model ;-)

We had to write Cryptix, that was a business
requirement as we needed crypto in Java (and
Perl) and nobody had done it before.  But,
once done, I didn't want to pay to keep it
going.  So we open sourced it.  We got the
support and the updates for free, mostly,
thereafter.

I had to pay for bits and
pieces, sure, but when I paid about $6000
(all up) to get the OpenPGP library written,
it compared pretty well to the licence fees
that RSADSI was charging, of $25,000.  I
got a good price because the source then
got opensourced.  Everybody won.  And, I
had to do it anyway, because RSADSI doesn't
deliver OpenPGP :-(

(Of course there are alternate business
models.  Baltimore, IAIK, RSADSI are some
famous names that decided to sell their
crypto software and made a bundle on the
stock exchange.  But, when it comes down
to it, their model failed, because they
were seduced into the apparent gold mine
of PKI...  But that's getting distracted!)

There are other benefits to the open source
model:  most of the people who've volunteered
have boosted their CVs and picked up good
work because of it.

-- 
iang




From hadmut at danisch.de  Thu Jul  4 13:54:11 2002
From: hadmut at danisch.de (Hadmut Danisch)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:54:11 +0200
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20020703225147.0b94ecd0@idiom.com>
References: <afecsf$ba3$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <5.1.1.6.2.20020703225147.0b94ecd0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20020704205410.GA8220@danisch.de>


On Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:54:43PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 12:59 AM 06/27/2002 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> >I fully agree that the TCPA's efforts offer potentially beneficial
> >effects. Assuming the TPM has not been compromised, the TPM should
> >enable to detect if interested parties have replaced you NIC with the
> >rarer, but not unheard of, variant that ships out the contents of your
> >operating RAM via DMA and IP padding outside the abilities of your OS to
> >detect.
> 
> It can?  I thought that DMA was there to let you avoid
> bothering the CPU.  The Alternate NIC card would need to have a
> CPU of its own to do a good job of this, but that's not hard.

I don't think so. As far as I understood, the 
bus system (PCI,...) will be encrypted as well. You'll have
to use a NIC which is certified and can decrypt the information
on the bus. Obviously, you won't get a certification for such
an network card.


But this implies other problems:

You won't be able to enter a simple shell script through the
keyboard. If so, you could simple print protected files as
a hexdump or use the screen (or maybe the sound device or any
LED) as a serial interface.

Since you could use the keyboard to enter a non-certified
program, the keyboard is to be considered as a nontrusted
device. This means that you either

* have to use a certified keyboard which doesn't let 
  you enter bad programs

* don't have a keyboard at all

* or are not able to use shell scripts (at least not in
  trusted context). This means a 
  strict separation between certified software and data.
  
  If Microsoft was able to do so, we wouldn't have 
  worms.



Hadmut






From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Thu Jul  4 22:54:34 2002
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:54:34 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <20020704205410.GA8220@danisch.de>
Message-ID: <006001c223e8$733e4200$6401a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>


Hadmut Danisch wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:54:43PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> > At 12:59 AM 06/27/2002 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> > >I fully agree that the TCPA's efforts offer potentially beneficial 
> > >effects. Assuming the TPM has not been compromised, the TPM should 
> > >enable to detect if interested parties have replaced you 
> NIC with the 
> > >rarer, but not unheard of, variant that ships out the contents of 
> > >your operating RAM via DMA and IP padding outside the abilities of 
> > >your OS to detect.
> > 
> > It can?  I thought that DMA was there to let you avoid 
> bothering the 
> > CPU.  The Alternate NIC card would need to have a CPU of 
> its own to do 
> > a good job of this, but that's not hard.
> 
> I don't think so. As far as I understood, the 
> bus system (PCI,...) will be encrypted as well. You'll have
> to use a NIC which is certified and can decrypt the 
> information on the bus. Obviously, you won't get a 
> certification for such an network card.

You won't and Bill won't. But those who employ such NIC's will have no
difficulty obtaining certification.

> But this implies other problems:
> 
> You won't be able to enter a simple shell script through the 
> keyboard. If so, you could simple print protected files as a 
> hexdump or use the screen (or maybe the sound device or any
> LED) as a serial interface.
> 
> Since you could use the keyboard to enter a non-certified 
> program, the keyboard is to be considered as a nontrusted 
> device. This means that you either
> 
> * have to use a certified keyboard which doesn't let 
>   you enter bad programs
> 
> * don't have a keyboard at all
> 
> * or are not able to use shell scripts (at least not in
>   trusted context). This means a 
>   strict separation between certified software and data.

Sure you can use shell scripts. Though I don't understand how a shell
script will help you in obtaining a dump of the protected data since
your script has insufficient privileges to read the data. Nor can you
give the shell script those privileges since you don't have supervisor
mode access to the CPU. How does your shell script plan to get past the
memory protection?

What am I missing?
--Lucky




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul  4 21:28:42 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:28:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Austin Cypherpunks - Montly Meet - July 9, 2002
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020704232652.233A-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Time:                July 9, 2002
                     Second Tuesday of each month 
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later)

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the 
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the building proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick.

Contact Info:        http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#austincpunks


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ForHerEnjoyment at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  5 00:06:28 2002
From: ForHerEnjoyment at hotmail.com (ForHerEnjoyment at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:06:28 -0700
Subject: Surprise her with something original!     Coupon #536445
Message-ID: <25885108451-220027557628671@hotmail.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 167 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/testlist/attachments/20020705/06a9357d/attachment.txt>

From daolby at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  5 01:46:19 2002
From: daolby at yahoo.com (daolby at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:46:19
Subject: AS SEEN ON TV-MAKE MILLIONS ON THE NET IN UNDER 6 MONTHS -CDIC
Message-ID: <200207050847.g658lxu14955@waste.minder.net>



AS SEEN ON TV!!!

READ THIS E-MAIL TO THE END! - Follow what it says to the letter - and you will not 

worry whether a 
RECESSION is coming or not, who is President, or whether you keep your current job or 

not. Yes, I know 
what you are thinking. I never responded to one of these before either. One day though, 

something just 
said "you throw away $25.00 going to a movie for 2 hours with your wife". "What the 

heck." Believe me, 
no matter where you believe "those feelings" come from, I thank every day that I had 

that feeling. 

I cannot imagine where I would be or what I would be doing had I not. Read on. It's 

true. Every word of it. It 
is legal. I checked. Simply because you are buying and selling something of value.

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Make over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home.

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !
BE AN INTERNET MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been 

hearing about on the 
news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly 

news program recently 
devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if 

it really can make 
people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting 

the participation in the 
program and if people can "follow the simple instruction" they are bound to make some 

mega bucks with 
only $25 out of pocket cost''.

DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS 
CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached 

many times before 
but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could 

expect in return for the 
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a total $610,470.00 

in 21 weeks, with 
money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.
 
Another said: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. 

But one day when I 
received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple 

instructions and walaa 
.... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but 

the next 2 months 
after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering 

the program, I have 
made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is 

to follow the simple 
steps and NOT change anything.'' 

More testimonials later but first, 

PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE

If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, 

please read the 
following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!

INSTRUCTIONS:

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and 

YOUR 
E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THE LIST next to the report. MAKE 

SURE YOUR 
RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

===WHEN YOU PLACE YOUR ORDER, MAKE SURE YOU ORDER EACH OF THE 5 REPORTS! ===
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. 
YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 

different individuals. 
Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of 

people who will 
order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in 

case something 
happens to your computer.

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or 

their sequence 
on the list, in any way other than as instructed below in steps '' 1 through 6 '' or 

you will loose out on the 
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 

that it does not work if 
you change it. 

Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!!! People 

have tried to put their 
friends/relatives names for all five reports thinking they could get all the money. But 

it does not work this 
way. Believe us, some have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So, do not try 

to change 
anything other than as instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. 

Remember, honesty reaps 
the reward!!! 

This IS a legitimate BUSINESS. You are offering a product for sale and getting paid for 

it. Treat it as such 
and you will be VERY profitable in a short period of time.

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & 

address of the 
person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt 

counting their fortune.

2.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! This is critical to YOUR 

success.

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your 

computer. DO NOT MAKE 
ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with 

marketing your business 
on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing 

information which 
includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified 

ads and much more. 
There are 2 primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume 

You and those 
involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive 

only a 0.2% (2/10 of 
1%) response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%). 

Also many people will 
send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, 

that is only 10 
orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a 

total of 50,000. 
Out of those 50,000 emails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded 

and ordered 
Report # 2.

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% 

response to that is 
1000 orders for Report # 3.

Those 1000 people send 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 5 million e-mail sent out. The 

0.2% response is 
10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000(50 million) 

e-mails. The 0.2% 
response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. 

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half a million dollars).

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... 

$50,000 + 5.... $500,000 .... 
Grand Total=$555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES 
AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of 

those people mailed 
100,000 e-mails each or more?

There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting, with 

thousands more coming on 
line every day. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places 

to advertise. 
Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We 

strongly suggest you start 
with Method # 1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you 

must do is e-mail 
them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders.

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, 

will be prompt 
because they can not advertise until they receive the report.

AVAILABLE REPORTS
The reason for the "cash" is not because this is illegal or somehow "wrong". It is 

simply about time. Time 
for checks or credit cards to be cleared or approved, etc. Concealing it is simply so 

no one can SEE there 
is money in the envelope and steal it before it gets to you.

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) 
for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in 

at least 2 
sheets of paper.  On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the 

Report you are 
ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
==================================================

REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide To Advertising for Free On The Net

Order Report #1 from : 
C. Silva
13500 SW Pacific Hwy.
PMB# 496
Tigard, OR 97223
USA
______________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk Email On The Net

Order Report # 2 from: 
Brandon Munzer 
1940 Ocean Avenue Apt.6J
Brooklyn, NY 11230
USA
______________________________________________________

REPORT # 3: Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net

Order Report # 3 from : 
Matthew Raif
14 Ryerson Road
Warwick,NY 10990
______________________________________________________

REPORT # 4: How To Become A Millionaire Using MLM & The Net

Order Report # 4 from: 
Robert Lamer
159 East 30th Street
New York, NY 10016
USA
______________________________________________________

REPORT # 5: How To Send Out One Million Emails For Free

Order Report # 5 From: 
Francis Kidd
P.O. Box 209
Homestead, PA 15120
USA
_______________________________________________
 
YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue 

sending e-mails until 
you do.

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 

orders or more for 
REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

**Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the 

system is 
already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 

REMEMBER: Every 
time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different 

report.

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from 

you. IF YOU 
WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE 
PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!!

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of 

your life, with NO 
RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and 

months 
than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it 

in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and 

address in Report #1 
and moved others to #2 .....# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to 

may send out 
100,000 or more emails and your name will be on every one of them. 

Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So 

my friend, I 
have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially 

independent.

IT IS UP TO YOU NOW !

=============MORE TESTIMONIALS===============
''My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a 

major U.S. Corporation 
and I make pretty good money.  When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about 

receiving 'junk  mail'. 
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages 

involved. I 
''knew'' it wouldn't work.  Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days 

later she jumped in 
with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you 

so'' on her when the 
thing didn't work. 

Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the 

next 45 days she 
had received total $ 147,200.00......... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jodyin 

her ''hobby''.

Mitchell Wolf., Chicago, Illinois
================================================
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to 

participate in this plan. But 
conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there 

was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found 

my medium size 
post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. 

The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There 

simply isn't a better 
investment with a faster return and so big''. 

Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
=================================================
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should 

have given it a try. Of 
course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was 

e-mailed again by 
someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete 

this one! I made more 
than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. 

Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.
=================================================
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to 

you. I followed the simple 
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month 

I made $20, in the 
2nd month I made $560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was 

$362,840.00. Life is 
beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 

Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
=================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

=================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of 

Associate Director for 
Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, 

Washington, D.C.

This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301, paragraph 

(a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. 

* This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, Virginia or 

California, screening of 
addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability.

*  This is a one time mailing and this list will never be used again.


*  To be removed from this list, please send an email with the word "remove" in the 

subject line to remove-
hp at 321webmaster.com


 cypherpunks at ns.minder.net  
  




From daolby at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  5 01:46:25 2002
From: daolby at yahoo.com (daolby at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:46:25
Subject: AS SEEN ON TV-MAKE MILLIONS ON THE NET IN UNDER 6 MONTHS -CDIC
Message-ID: <200207050848.g658m14l024348@ak47.algebra.com>



AS SEEN ON TV!!!

READ THIS E-MAIL TO THE END! - Follow what it says to the letter - and you will not 

worry whether a 
RECESSION is coming or not, who is President, or whether you keep your current job or 

not. Yes, I know 
what you are thinking. I never responded to one of these before either. One day though, 

something just 
said "you throw away $25.00 going to a movie for 2 hours with your wife". "What the 

heck." Believe me, 
no matter where you believe "those feelings" come from, I thank every day that I had 

that feeling. 

I cannot imagine where I would be or what I would be doing had I not. Read on. It's 

true. Every word of it. It 
is legal. I checked. Simply because you are buying and selling something of value.

AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

Make over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home.

THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !
BE AN INTERNET MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!

Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been 

hearing about on the 
news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly 

news program recently 
devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if 

it really can make 
people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting 

the participation in the 
program and if people can "follow the simple instruction" they are bound to make some 

mega bucks with 
only $25 out of pocket cost''.

DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS 
CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached 

many times before 
but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could 

expect in return for the 
minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a total $610,470.00 

in 21 weeks, with 
money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey.
 
Another said: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. 

But one day when I 
received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple 

instructions and walaa 
.... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but 

the next 2 months 
after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering 

the program, I have 
made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is 

to follow the simple 
steps and NOT change anything.'' 

More testimonials later but first, 

PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE

If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, 

please read the 
following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!

INSTRUCTIONS:

=====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below =====

For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and 

YOUR 
E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THE LIST next to the report. MAKE 

SURE YOUR 
RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

===WHEN YOU PLACE YOUR ORDER, MAKE SURE YOU ORDER EACH OF THE 5 REPORTS! ===
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. 
YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00.

Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 

different individuals. 
Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of 

people who will 
order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in 

case something 
happens to your computer.

IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or 

their sequence 
on the list, in any way other than as instructed below in steps '' 1 through 6 '' or 

you will loose out on the 
majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see 

that it does not work if 
you change it. 

Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!!! People 

have tried to put their 
friends/relatives names for all five reports thinking they could get all the money. But 

it does not work this 
way. Believe us, some have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So, do not try 

to change 
anything other than as instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. 

Remember, honesty reaps 
the reward!!! 

This IS a legitimate BUSINESS. You are offering a product for sale and getting paid for 

it. Treat it as such 
and you will be VERY profitable in a short period of time.

1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & 

address of the 
person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt 

counting their fortune.

2.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.

3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

6.. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! This is critical to YOUR 

success.

**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your 

computer. DO NOT MAKE 
ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with 

marketing your business 
on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing 

information which 
includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified 

ads and much more. 
There are 2 primary methods to get this venture going:

METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume 

You and those 
involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive 

only a 0.2% (2/10 of 
1%) response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%). 

Also many people will 
send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, 

that is only 10 
orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a 

total of 50,000. 
Out of those 50,000 emails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded 

and ordered 
Report # 2.

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% 

response to that is 
1000 orders for Report # 3.

Those 1000 people send 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 5 million e-mail sent out. The 

0.2% response is 
10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000(50 million) 

e-mails. The 0.2% 
response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. 

THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half a million dollars).

Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.....$5,000 + 4..... 

$50,000 + 5.... $500,000 .... 
Grand Total=$555,550.00

NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES 
AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. 
Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of 

those people mailed 
100,000 e-mails each or more?

There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting, with 

thousands more coming on 
line every day. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places 

to advertise. 
Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We 

strongly suggest you start 
with Method # 1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you 

must do is e-mail 
them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders.

This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, 

will be prompt 
because they can not advertise until they receive the report.

AVAILABLE REPORTS
The reason for the "cash" is not because this is illegal or somehow "wrong". It is 

simply about time. Time 
for checks or credit cards to be cleared or approved, etc. Concealing it is simply so 

no one can SEE there 
is money in the envelope and steal it before it gets to you.

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) 
for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in 

at least 2 
sheets of paper.  On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the 

Report you are 
ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
==================================================

REPORT # 1: 'The Insider's Guide To Advertising for Free On The Net

Order Report #1 from : 
C. Silva
13500 SW Pacific Hwy.
PMB# 496
Tigard, OR 97223
USA
______________________________________________________

REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide To Sending Bulk Email On The Net

Order Report # 2 from: 
Brandon Munzer 
1940 Ocean Avenue Apt.6J
Brooklyn, NY 11230
USA
______________________________________________________

REPORT # 3: Secret To Multilevel Marketing On The Net

Order Report # 3 from : 
Matthew Raif
14 Ryerson Road
Warwick,NY 10990
______________________________________________________

REPORT # 4: How To Become A Millionaire Using MLM & The Net

Order Report # 4 from: 
Robert Lamer
159 East 30th Street
New York, NY 10016
USA
______________________________________________________

REPORT # 5: How To Send Out One Million Emails For Free

Order Report # 5 From: 
Francis Kidd
P.O. Box 209
Homestead, PA 15120
USA
_______________________________________________
 
YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue 

sending e-mails until 
you do.

=== After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 

orders or more for 
REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

**Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the 

system is 
already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO 

REMEMBER: Every 
time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different 

report.

You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from 

you. IF YOU 
WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE 
PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!!

FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: 
You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of 

your life, with NO 
RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and 

months 
than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it 

in any 
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.

Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and 

address in Report #1 
and moved others to #2 .....# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to 

may send out 
100,000 or more emails and your name will be on every one of them. 

Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So 

my friend, I 
have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially 

independent.

IT IS UP TO YOU NOW !

=============MORE TESTIMONIALS===============
''My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a 

major U.S. Corporation 
and I make pretty good money.  When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about 

receiving 'junk  mail'. 
I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages 

involved. I 
''knew'' it wouldn't work.  Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days 

later she jumped in 
with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you 

so'' on her when the 
thing didn't work. 

Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the 

next 45 days she 
had received total $ 147,200.00......... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jodyin 

her ''hobby''.

Mitchell Wolf., Chicago, Illinois
================================================
''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to 

participate in this plan. But 
conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there 

was just no way that I 
wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found 

my medium size 
post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. 

The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There 

simply isn't a better 
investment with a faster return and so big''. 

Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
=================================================
''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should 

have given it a try. Of 
course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was 

e-mailed again by 
someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete 

this one! I made more 
than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. 

Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y.
=================================================
''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to 

you. I followed the simple 
instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month 

I made $20, in the 
2nd month I made $560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was 

$362,840.00. Life is 
beautiful, Thanx to internet''. 

Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
=================================================

ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

=================================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of 

Associate Director for 
Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, 

Washington, D.C.

This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301, paragraph 

(a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. 

* This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, Virginia or 

California, screening of 
addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability.

*  This is a one time mailing and this list will never be used again.


*  To be removed from this list, please send an email with the word "remove" in the 

subject line to remove-
hp at 321webmaster.com


 cypherpunks at algebra.com  
  




From derkmark at gmd.de  Fri Jul  5 13:48:01 2002
From: derkmark at gmd.de (Ralph K)
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 01:48:01 -1900
Subject: I Talked To Him Yesterday25624
Message-ID: <00005c3f0923$00002b6b$00004d2b@mail.dada.it>

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From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Thu Jul  4 17:06:06 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Fri,  5 Jul 2002 02:06:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Closed source more secure than open source
Message-ID: <19644b6e446618b92d13ea000f36fb96@remailer.privacy.at>


Ross Anderson's paper at
http://www.ftp.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/toulouse.pdf
has been mostly discussed for what it says about the TCPA.  But the
first part of the paper is equally interesting.

The author analyzes the security implications of software development
using open source vs closed source.  He sets up a mathematical model
for the number of bugs remaining after a certain amount of testing.
Based on this model, he finds that both open and closed source development
methodologies are equally secure.

However his model has some simplifications and assumptions which are
quite unrealistic.  A more careful analysis will show that closed source
is the superior development method.

Essentially, the model assumes that each bug has a certain independent
probability of being found by testers, its own "MTBF".  Based on this
model it turns out that the probability of a security failure after time
t is inversely proportional to t.

He then writes, "Consider now what happens if we make the tester's job
harder.  Suppose that after the initial alpha testing of the product,
all subsequent testing is done by beta testers who have no access to the
source code, but can only try out various combinations of inputs in an
attempt to cause a failure.  If this makes the testers job on average
L times harder, so the bugs are L times more difficult to find... then
the probability that the system will fail the next test is..." inversely
proportional to t*L.  "In other words, the system's failure rate has just
dropped by a factor of L, just as we would expect."

The result is that, with access to the source code, bugs are L times
easier to find, but they are removed L times faster.  This corresponds to
the open source model. With closed source there is no access to the code,
bugs are removed L times slower, but they are L times harder to find.
The net result is that both open source and closed source are equivalent
in terms of how fast bugs are found, therefore both will be equally
vulnerable to exploiters of security bugs.

There are several problems with this analysis.  First, it is really not
true that external beta testers will be slowed down significantly by
lack of access to source code.  For most programs, source code will be of
no benefit to external testers, because they don't know how to program.
Someone who is testing a spreadsheet or word processor will have virtually
no benefit from access to the source code.  They will have no choice
but, as described above, to "try out various combinations of inputs in
an attempt to cause a failure."  This is true regardless of whether the
source code is available or not.

Therefore the rate at which (external) testers find bugs does not vary
by a factor of L between the open and closed source methodologies,
as assumed in the model.  In fact the rates will be approximately equal.

Another problem is that there are really three groups of parties involved
here: developers, external testers, and attackers.  Attackers, who are
trying to find breaks in software, are often highly motivated and skilled.
They can read code.  For them, the factor of L does come into play.
If they have access to the source code, they can find bugs L times faster
than if they don't, in accordance with the author's model.

The result is that once a product has gone into beta testing and then into
field installations, the rate of finding bugs by authorized testers will
be low, decreased by a factor of L, regardless of open or closed source.
But the rate of finding bugs by unauthorized, skilled attackers will be
affected by the availability of source.  Closed source will impair their
effectiveness by a factor of L, just as with the testers, so the model in
the paper is accurate in that case.  Bug open source benefits attackers;
they can find bugs at a rate of 1/t, while the authorized testers are
finding bugs at the slower rate of 1/(t*L).  The open source case will
leave more bugs available for attack, and the attackers can use the source
code to find them more quickly.  Therefore open source is more vulnerable
to attack, and closed source is the superior development method.

The one class of programs where this is not true would be those for which
the external testers benefit from having source available, which would
be programs where the testers are programmers; i.e., development tools.
For these programs the testers and attackers would both be affected in the
same way by availability of source.  But for most programs, attackers will
gain much more by having source available than the beta testers would.




From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Jul  4 18:10:07 2002
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Fri,  5 Jul 2002 03:10:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Piracy is wrong
Message-ID: <5a0ae83ef5831c4142b10409810a4891@dizum.com>


Suppose you know someone who has been working for years on a novel.
But he lacks confidence in his work and he's never shown it to anyone.
Finally you persuade him to let you look at a copy of his manuscript,
but he makes you promise not to show any of it to anyone else.

Hopefully it is clear in this situation that no one is doing anything
"evil".  Even though he is giving you the document with conditions beyond
those specified in the current regime of copyright, he is not taking
advantage of you.  Even though you hold the bits to his manuscript and he
has put limitations on what you can do with them, he is not coercing you.
You voluntarily accepted those conditions as part of the agreement under
which you received the document.

It should also be clear that it would be ethically wrong for you to
take the manuscript and show it to other people.  Even if you take an
excerpt, as allowed under "fair use" exemptions to copyright protection,
and include it in a document for commentary or review purposes, that
would be a violation of your promise.  This example demonstrates that
when two people reach a mutual agreement about how they will handle some
information, they are ethically bound by it even beyond the regulations
of copyright law.

And surely it is clear that no decisions by Congress or any other
legislative or judicial body can change the ethics of this situation.
In fact, it is absurd to look to Congress for guidelines on ethics!
Surely everyone reading is aware that it is one of the least ethical
bodies in existence.  Those who look to Congress to justify breaking
their promises are not looking for ethics, they are looking for excuses.
Congress excels at providing those.

The point is that this situation is exactly analogous to what might happen
if you purchased a song or other information content by downloading,
and restrictions were placed on how you could handle it as a condition of
that purchase.  One of the restrictions might be that you can make no more
than 2 copies of the song for personal use.  Another restriction might
be that if you give a copy to someone else, you have to delete your copy.

Such restrictions cannot be evil, any more than was the even more
strict restriction imposed on the recipient in the book example above.
Evil only exists when someone is forced to do something they don't want
to.  Offering a song or a book with conditions does not force anyone to
do anything, because the offer can always be refused.  There can be no
evil in making someone an offer, even an unacceptably restricted one.

In fact, making or accepting any kind of offer, with any restrictions
which the parties choose, is a fundamental freedom which everyone
here should fight to support.  To say that people can only make or
accept offers which some third party deems acceptable is a coercive
infringement on people's liberty to make their own decisions and to
control their lives.  It is despotism of the worst sort.  Third parties
have no right to interfere in the agreements which others make.




From schoen at eff.org  Fri Jul  5 03:52:52 2002
From: schoen at eff.org (Seth David Schoen)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:52:52 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <20020704205410.GA8220@danisch.de>
References: <afecsf$ba3$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <5.1.1.6.2.20020703225147.0b94ecd0@idiom.com> <20020704205410.GA8220@danisch.de>
Message-ID: <20020705105252.GC5551@zork.net>


Hadmut Danisch writes:

> You won't be able to enter a simple shell script through the
> keyboard. If so, you could simple print protected files as
> a hexdump or use the screen (or maybe the sound device or any
> LED) as a serial interface.
> 
> Since you could use the keyboard to enter a non-certified
> program, the keyboard is to be considered as a nontrusted
> device. This means that you either
> 
> * have to use a certified keyboard which doesn't let 
>   you enter bad programs
> 
> * don't have a keyboard at all
> 
> * or are not able to use shell scripts (at least not in
>   trusted context). This means a 
>   strict separation between certified software and data.

The latter is closest to what's intended in Palladium.  Individual
programs using Palladium features are able to prevent one another from
reading their executing or stored state.  You can write your own
programs, but somebody else can also write programs which can process
data in a way that your programs can't interact with.

The Palladium security model and features are different from Unix, but
you can imagine by rough analogy a Unix implementation on a system
with protected memory.  Every process can have its own virtual memory
space, read and write files, interact with the user, etc.  But
normally a program can't read another program's memory without the
other program's permission.

The analogy starts to break down, though: in Unix a process running as
the superuser or code running in kernel mode may be able to ignore
memory protection and monitor or control an arbitrary process.  In
Palladium, if a system is started in a trusted mode, not even the OS
kernel will have access to all system resources.  That limitation
doesn't stop you from writing your own application software or scripts.

Interestingly, Palladium and TCPA both allow you to modify any part of
the software installed on your system (though not your hardware).  The
worst thing which can happen to you as a result is that the system
will know that it is no longer "trusted", or will otherwise be able to
recognize or take account of the changes you made.  In principle,
there's nothing wrong with running "untrusted"; particular applications
or services which relied on a trusted feature, including sealed
storage (see below), may fail to operate.

Palladium and TCPA both allow an application to make use of
hardware-based encryption and decryption in a scheme called "sealed
storage" which uses a hash of the running system's software as part of
the key.  One result of this is that, if you change relevant parts of
the software, the hardware will no longer be able to perform the
decryption step.  To oversimplify slightly, you could imagine that the
hardware uses the currently-running OS kernel's hash as part of this
key.  Then, if you change the kernel in any way (which you're
permitted to do), applications running under it will find that they're
no longer able to decrypt "sealed" files which were created under the
original kernel.  Rebooting with the original kernel will restore the
ability to decrypt, because the hash will again match the original
kernel's hash.

(I've been reading TCPA specs and recently met with some Microsoft
Palladium team members.  But I'm still learning about both systems and
may well have made some mistakes in my description.)

-- 
Seth Schoen
Staff Technologist                                schoen at eff.org
Electronic Frontier Foundation                    http://www.eff.org/
454 Shotwell Street, San Francisco, CA  94110     1 415 436 9333 x107




From arthuryoung at mail.com  Thu Jul  4 19:09:19 2002
From: arthuryoung at mail.com (ARTHUR YOUNG)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 04:09:19 +0200
Subject: Thanks for your reply.....
Message-ID: <200207050302.g6532TE84632@locust.minder.net>


STRICTLY PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL 

MR. ARTHUR YOUNG... 

DEPARTMENT OF MINERALS AND ENERGY 
PRETORIA, SOUTH AFRICA. 

Sir, It is my great pleasure to write you this letter on behalf of my colleagues. Your information was given to me by a member of the 
South African Export Promotion Council (SAEPC) who was with the Government delegation on a trip to your country for a bilateral 
conference talk to encourage foreign investors. I have decided to seek a confidential co-operation with you in the execution of a deal 
hereunder for the benefit of all parties and hope you will keep it confidential because of the nature of this business. 

Within the Department of Minerals and Energy where I work as a Director of Audit, with the co-operation of four other top officials, 
we have in our possession an overdue payment in US funds. 

The said funds represent certain percentage of the contract value executed on behalf of my Department by a foreign contracting firm, 
which we the officials over-invoiced to the amount of US$29,200,000 (Twenty-Nine Million Two Hundred Thousand US Dollars). 

Since the present elected Government is determined to pay foreign contractors all debts owed, so as to maintain good relations with 
foreign governments and non-governmental agencies, we included our bills for approvals with the Department of Finance and the 
Reserve Bank of South Africa (RBSA). 

We are seeking your assistance to front as the beneficiary of the unclaimed funds, since we are not allowed to operate foreign accounts.
 Details and change of beneficiary information upon application for claim to reflect payment and approvals will be secured on behalf of
 You/your Company. 

My colleagues and I are prepared to give you US$7m while we take US$19m and the balance of US$3.2m for taxes and 
miscellaneous expenses incurred. 

This business is completely safe and secure, provided you treat it with utmost confidentiality. It does not matter whether You/your 
Company does contract projects, as a transfer of powers will be secured in favor of You/your Company. Your specialization is not a 
hindrance to the successful execution of this transaction. I have reposed my confidence in you and hope that you will not disappoint us. 

Kindly notify me through my email box for further details upon your acceptance of this proposal. 

Yours Faithfully 
MR. ARTHUR YOUNG... 





From arthuryoung at mail.com  Thu Jul  4 19:09:23 2002
From: arthuryoung at mail.com (ARTHUR YOUNG)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 04:09:23 +0200
Subject: Thanks for your reply.....
Message-ID: <200207050311.WAA27740@einstein.ssz.com>


STRICTLY PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL 

MR. ARTHUR YOUNG... 

DEPARTMENT OF MINERALS AND ENERGY 
PRETORIA, SOUTH AFRICA. 

Sir, It is my great pleasure to write you this letter on behalf of my colleagues. Your information was given to me by a member of the 
South African Export Promotion Council (SAEPC) who was with the Government delegation on a trip to your country for a bilateral 
conference talk to encourage foreign investors. I have decided to seek a confidential co-operation with you in the execution of a deal 
hereunder for the benefit of all parties and hope you will keep it confidential because of the nature of this business. 

Within the Department of Minerals and Energy where I work as a Director of Audit, with the co-operation of four other top officials, 
we have in our possession an overdue payment in US funds. 

The said funds represent certain percentage of the contract value executed on behalf of my Department by a foreign contracting firm, 
which we the officials over-invoiced to the amount of US$29,200,000 (Twenty-Nine Million Two Hundred Thousand US Dollars). 

Since the present elected Government is determined to pay foreign contractors all debts owed, so as to maintain good relations with 
foreign governments and non-governmental agencies, we included our bills for approvals with the Department of Finance and the 
Reserve Bank of South Africa (RBSA). 

We are seeking your assistance to front as the beneficiary of the unclaimed funds, since we are not allowed to operate foreign accounts.
 Details and change of beneficiary information upon application for claim to reflect payment and approvals will be secured on behalf of
 You/your Company. 

My colleagues and I are prepared to give you US$7m while we take US$19m and the balance of US$3.2m for taxes and 
miscellaneous expenses incurred. 

This business is completely safe and secure, provided you treat it with utmost confidentiality. It does not matter whether You/your 
Company does contract projects, as a transfer of powers will be secured in favor of You/your Company. Your specialization is not a 
hindrance to the successful execution of this transaction. I have reposed my confidence in you and hope that you will not disappoint us. 

Kindly notify me through my email box for further details upon your acceptance of this proposal. 

Yours Faithfully 
MR. ARTHUR YOUNG... 





From adam at cypherspace.org  Thu Jul  4 20:54:52 2002
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 04:54:52 +0100
Subject: copyright restrictions are coercive and immoral (Re: Piracy is wrong)
In-Reply-To: <5a0ae83ef5831c4142b10409810a4891@dizum.com>; from nobody@dizum.com on Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 03:10:07AM +0200
References: <5a0ae83ef5831c4142b10409810a4891@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20020705045452.A1039733@exeter.ac.uk>


On Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 03:10:07AM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Suppose you know someone who has been working for years on a novel.
> But he lacks confidence in his work and he's never shown it to anyone.
> Finally you persuade him to let you look at a copy of his manuscript,
> but he makes you promise not to show any of it to anyone else.
> 
> [...]

I agree with the Anonymous posters analysis.

I would further elaborate with regard to current copyright related
laws:

- parties are free to enter into NDA or complex distribution and use
contracts surrounding exchange of content or information generally as
anonymous describes, and this is good and non-coercive

- but that private contract places no burden on other parties if that
agreement is broken and the content distributed anyway.  This is
exactly analogous to the trade secret scenario where once the trade
secret is out, it's tough luck for the previous trade secret owner --
clearly it's no longer a secret.

- where I find current copyright laws at odds with a coercion free
society is in placing restrictions on people who did not agree to any
NDA contract.  ie. There are laws which forbid copying or use of
information by people who never entered into any agreement with the
copyright holder, but obtained their copy from a third party.

- in a free society (one without a force monopoly central government)
I don't think copyright would exist -- voluntary agreements -- NDAs of
the form anonymous describes -- would be the only type of contract.

- the only form of generally sanctioned force would be in response to
violence initiated upon oneself.

- if the media cartels chose to hire their own thugs to threaten
violence to people who did not follow the cartels ideas about binding
people to default contracts they did not voluntarily enter into, that
would be quite analogous to the current situation where the media
cartels are lobbying government to increase the level of the threats
of violence, and make more onerous the terms of the non-voluntary
contracts.  

(Also in a free society individuals would be able to employ the
services of security firms protection services to defend themselves
from the media cartels thugs, as the media cartels would not have the
benefit of a force monopoly they have the lobbying power to bribe to
obtain enforcement subsidies).

Adam




From sharpyun at part-time.cc  Thu Jul  4 15:52:43 2002
From: sharpyun at part-time.cc (sharpyun at part-time.cc)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 06:52:43 +0800
Subject: =?GB2312?B?z9a0+ruvxvPStbXE0Pu0q8rWts4=?=
Message-ID: <200207042316.SAA22299@einstein.ssz.com>

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From msarela at cc.hut.fi  Thu Jul  4 22:33:39 2002
From: msarela at cc.hut.fi (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mikko_S=E4rel=E4?=)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 08:33:39 +0300 (EET DST)
Subject: Piracy is wrong
In-Reply-To: <3D24BE67.10046.15D6E40@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10207050831180.10071-100000@kosh.hut.fi>


On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> Let us make a more realistic supposition:
> 
> Let us suppose instead he organized an entertainment where a
> lightly clad singer sang and danced, and showed that video on
> television interspersed with advertisments, and I then captured
> that video on my hard disk, deleted the ads, and put it on the
> internet.
> 
> In that case, where is my promise?  Doubtless I must have made it
> in the same moment of forgetfulness as I signed the social
> contract. 

Nowadays, nowhere. And that is mostly because of copyrights. If there were
no copyright laws, I bet you would have to sign all sort of things to get
tv channels home. And yes, it would be quite a pain in the ass to do this
way 'afterwords' when people already have tv's and expect them to work
without doing anything. 

-- 
Mikko        "One Ring to rule them all,
              One Ring to find them,
              One Ring to bring them all
              And in the Darkness bind them."




From prettister at hotmail.com  Fri Jul  5 08:35:24 2002
From: prettister at hotmail.com (sophie ejide)
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 08:35:24 -0700
Subject: INVESTMENT ASSITANCE
Message-ID: <F45dzrJiux0VMqIZCrf0000a060@hotmail.com>





ATTN: ,
Dear SIR,

  LET ME TAKE A BRIEF TIME TO INTRODUCE MYSELF TO YOU I AM SOPHIE
KAMARA THE DAUGHTER OF COL.ABUBAKAR KIZOMBE KAMARA ONE OF THE SENIOR
OFFICIAL OF THE REVOLUTIONARY UNITED FRONT OF SIERRA LEONE (RUF) WHO
DIED ON 18\06\2000 WITH SOME OF HIS COLLEAGUES DURING A CROSS FIR
BATTLE BETWEEN THE R.U.F AND THE PEACE KEEPING FORCE IN SIEERA LEONE
WHICH INCLUDES ECOMOG,BRITISH ARMY AND THE U.N TROOPS.

IN BRIEF, I HAVE THE SUM OF $12,500.000USD(TEWELVE MILLION FIVE HUNDRED
THOUSAND DOLLAR) WHICH I WANT TO INVEST IN YOUR COUNTRY.

THIS MONEY WAS DEPOSITED BY MY LATE FATHER IN A FINANCE AND SECURITY
COMPANY HERE IN DAKAR SENEGAL WHICH MY BROTHER KENNETH IS THE BENEFICIARY 
AND NEXT
OF KIN AND THE ONLY SON SURVALVED TOGETHER WITH ME . BECAUSE OF THE PRESENT 
SITUATION
OF MY COUNTRY I AM  LOOKING FOR A FORIEGN PARTNER
WHO WILL ASSIST US TO RETRIEVE THIS MONEY FROM THE SECURITY COMPANY
AND LIFTED IT TO HIS COUNTRY FOR UNWARD PERUSAL INVESTMENT.
   FOR ASSISTING US ON THIS TRANSACTION I HAVE NEGOTIATED WITH MY
BROTHER TO GIVE YOU THE 25% OF THE MONEY WHILE 5% WILL BE MAPPED ASIDE
FOR ANY EXPENSES INCURED DURING THE TRANSACTION. YOU WILL AS WELL
WHEN IT REALEASE FROM THE SECURITY COMPANY.

PLEASE I WANT YOU TO VIEW THIS PROPOSAL WITH SERIOUSNESS FOR THIS IS
THE ONLY SURVALVEMENT OF ME AND MY BROTHER SINCE OUR PARENTS IS NO MORE.
I WITH MY BROTHER KENNETH ARE PRESENTLY HERE IN SENEGAL FOR ENHANCING THIS
TRANSACTION.  PLEASE WE COUNT ON YOU TO HELP US, I WILL SEND TO YOU
ALL THE DOCUMENT THAT COVERS THE DEPOSIT OF THIS TREASURE WITH THE
SECURITY COMPANY.
I WILL WAIT TO HEAR FROM YOU FOR YOUR ACCEPTANCE PERMIT US TO CARRY
ON THIS TRANSACTION.
THANKS FOR YOUR ANTICIPATED CO-OPERATION.

YOURS SINCERELY,
SOPHIE KAMARA .











ATTN: ,
Dear SIR,

  LET ME TAKE A BRIEF TIME TO INTRODUCE MYSELF TO YOU I AM SOPHIE
KAMARA THE DAUGHTER OF COL.ABUBAKAR KIZOMBE KAMARA ONE OF THE SENIOR
OFFICIAL OF THE REVOLUTIONARY UNITED FRONT OF SIERRA LEONE (RUF) WHO
DIED ON 18\06\2000 WITH SOME OF HIS COLLEAGUES DURING A CROSS FIR
BATTLE BETWEEN THE R.U.F AND THE PEACE KEEPING FORCE IN SIEERA LEONE
WHICH INCLUDES ECOMOG,BRITISH ARMY AND THE U.N TROOPS.

IN BRIEF, I HAVE THE SUM OF $12,500.000USD(TEWELVE MILLION FIVE HUNDRED
THOUSAND DOLLAR) WHICH I WANT TO INVEST IN YOUR COUNTRY.

THIS MONEY WAS DEPOSITED BY MY LATE FATHER IN A FINANCE AND SECURITY
COMPANY HERE IN DAKAR SENEGAL WHICH MY BROTHER KENNETH IS THE BENEFICIARY 
AND NEXT
OF KIN AND THE ONLY SON SURVALVED TOGETHER WITH ME . BECAUSE OF THE PRESENT 
SITUATION
OF MY COUNTRY I AM  LOOKING FOR A FORIEGN PARTNER
WHO WILL ASSIST US TO RETRIEVE THIS MONEY FROM THE SECURITY COMPANY
AND LIFTED IT TO HIS COUNTRY FOR UNWARD PERUSAL INVESTMENT.
   FOR ASSISTING US ON THIS TRANSACTION I HAVE NEGOTIATED WITH MY
BROTHER TO GIVE YOU THE 25% OF THE MONEY WHILE 5% WILL BE MAPPED ASIDE
FOR ANY EXPENSES INCURED DURING THE TRANSACTION. YOU WILL AS WELL
WHEN IT REALEASE FROM THE SECURITY COMPANY.

PLEASE I WANT YOU TO VIEW THIS PROPOSAL WITH SERIOUSNESS FOR THIS IS
THE ONLY SURVALVEMENT OF ME AND MY BROTHER SINCE OUR PARENTS IS NO MORE.
I WITH MY BROTHER KENNETH ARE PRESENTLY HERE IN SENEGAL FOR ENHANCING THIS
TRANSACTION.  PLEASE WE COUNT ON YOU TO HELP US, I WILL SEND TO YOU
ALL THE DOCUMENT THAT COVERS THE DEPOSIT OF THIS TREASURE WITH THE
SECURITY COMPANY.
I WILL WAIT TO HEAR FROM YOU FOR YOUR ACCEPTANCE PERMIT US TO CARRY
ON THIS TRANSACTION.
THANKS FOR YOUR ANTICIPATED CO-OPERATION.

YOURS SINCERELY,
SOPHIE KAMARA .









ATTN: ,
Dear SIR,

  LET ME TAKE A BRIEF TIME TO INTRODUCE MYSELF TO YOU I AM SOPHIE
KAMARA THE DAUGHTER OF COL.ABUBAKAR KIZOMBE KAMARA ONE OF THE SENIOR
OFFICIAL OF THE REVOLUTIONARY UNITED FRONT OF SIERRA LEONE (RUF) WHO
DIED ON 18\06\2000 WITH SOME OF HIS COLLEAGUES DURING A CROSS FIR
BATTLE BETWEEN THE R.U.F AND THE PEACE KEEPING FORCE IN SIEERA LEONE
WHICH INCLUDES ECOMOG,BRITISH ARMY AND THE U.N TROOPS.

IN BRIEF, I HAVE THE SUM OF $12,500.000USD(TEWELVE MILLION FIVE HUNDRED
THOUSAND DOLLAR) WHICH I WANT TO INVEST IN YOUR COUNTRY.

THIS MONEY WAS DEPOSITED BY MY LATE FATHER IN A FINANCE AND SECURITY
COMPANY HERE IN DAKAR SENEGAL WHICH MY BROTHER KENNETH IS THE BENEFICIARY 
AND NEXT
OF KIN AND THE ONLY SON SURVALVED TOGETHER WITH ME . BECAUSE OF THE PRESENT 
SITUATION
OF MY COUNTRY I AM  LOOKING FOR A FORIEGN PARTNER
WHO WILL ASSIST US TO RETRIEVE THIS MONEY FROM THE SECURITY COMPANY
AND LIFTED IT TO HIS COUNTRY FOR UNWARD PERUSAL INVESTMENT.
   FOR ASSISTING US ON THIS TRANSACTION I HAVE NEGOTIATED WITH MY
BROTHER TO GIVE YOU THE 25% OF THE MONEY WHILE 5% WILL BE MAPPED ASIDE
FOR ANY EXPENSES INCURED DURING THE TRANSACTION. YOU WILL AS WELL
WHEN IT REALEASE FROM THE SECURITY COMPANY.

PLEASE I WANT YOU TO VIEW THIS PROPOSAL WITH SERIOUSNESS FOR THIS IS
THE ONLY SURVALVEMENT OF ME AND MY BROTHER SINCE OUR PARENTS IS NO MORE.
I WITH MY BROTHER KENNETH ARE PRESENTLY HERE IN SENEGAL FOR ENHANCING THIS
TRANSACTION.  PLEASE WE COUNT ON YOU TO HELP US, I WILL SEND TO YOU
ALL THE DOCUMENT THAT COVERS THE DEPOSIT OF THIS TREASURE WITH THE
SECURITY COMPANY.
I WILL WAIT TO HEAR FROM YOU FOR YOUR ACCEPTANCE PERMIT US TO CARRY
ON THIS TRANSACTION.
THANKS FOR YOUR ANTICIPATED CO-OPERATION.

YOURS SINCERELY,
SOPHIE KAMARA .








_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  5 08:59:53 2002
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 08:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Diffie-Hellman and MITM
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20020703230350.0b98aac0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20020705155953.45542.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>


> Consider setting up a secure video call with somebody,
> and each of you reading the hash of your DH parameter to the other.
> It's really hard for a MITM to fake that - but if you don't know
> what the other person looks or sounds like, do you know it's really them,
> or did you just have an unbreakably secure call with the wrong person?

Whatever you deploy to define "somebody" should be used as authentication
channel. You are exactly as secure as as you can define "somebody". Your al
quaeda coworker probably has your never published public key. Your online-found
busty and wet blonde is probably named Gordon.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com




From MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org  Fri Jul  5 11:21:57 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org (MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org)
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 13:21:57 -0500
Subject: Your order                        10753
In-Reply-To: <000060fb6de3$000053b7$000061ee@.>
Message-ID: <react-14098319@mail.hal-pc.org>


The domain home.com no longer accepts email.
If you are trying to email someone with an @home.com
email address you should contact them by other means
to get their new email address.

--- 
<Postmaster at hal-pc.org>




From hadmut at danisch.de  Fri Jul  5 04:31:48 2002
From: hadmut at danisch.de (Hadmut Danisch)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:31:48 +0200
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <20020705105252.GC5551@zork.net>
References: <afecsf$ba3$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <5.1.1.6.2.20020703225147.0b94ecd0@idiom.com> <20020704205410.GA8220@danisch.de> <20020705105252.GC5551@zork.net>
Message-ID: <20020705113148.GA5960@danisch.de>


On Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 03:52:52AM -0700, Seth David Schoen wrote:
> 
> memory protection and monitor or control an arbitrary process. In
> Palladium, if a system is started in a trusted mode, not even the OS
> kernel will have access to all system resources. 

That *might* be a contradiction in terms.

If I understand this correctly, the TCPA or Palladium hardware 
will include some kind of memory management device, very similar
to the ones we have in hardware of the last years, but which stores
some kind of de-/encryption information for each page segment and
which de-/encrypts every memory access. Doesn't seem to be much of
a problem, except for speed.

But how does this device know which segments belong to the software
and which don't? Or how does it know whether an allowed or foreign task
is accessing the protected areas (which is the same question again,
= is the PC in a program segment which also belongs to the protected
area). 

If this is done the simple way, like a normal OS configures the
memory management when loading some executable software, the OS
might at any time give wrong information to the device. In this case, 
the security depends on the integrity and bug-freeness of the 
OS, because the OS _could_ do it, but it is not supposed to do it.

A more advanced way would be to have the program loaded by the 
operating system as before, but to have the Palladium device check
some kind of signature to verify the correctness of the 
OS loading operation. This might lead to an uncontrollable 
problems, if programs start to load DLLs. Is the TCPA/Palladium
trust transitive? If library A is trusted, and so is B, is then
(A+B) trusted?

A third way would be to keep the OS completely out of the job
of loading software/programs into memory, and to have it done
by the Palladium device. This isn't actually a third way, but
a redefinition of terms and a migration. The OS isn't the OS
anymore, because basic tasks of the OS have been migrated to
the Palladium device, which is now to be considered as a
piece of OS in silicon.

I didn't find the time yet to read the TCPA description in 
detail. But from my current point of view I doubt that this
will really work, provide the claimed security, and will still
be a useful computer at the same time.

I especially doubt that the same company, which completely fails to
make Outlook or Internet Explorer resistent against 
content attacks (viruses, worms, ...) will be able to provide
software which such a strict separation between trusted and untrusted
data, as it is required for such a project to work.



regards
Hadmut










From MoreInks at netscape.net  Fri Jul  5 14:29:55 2002
From: MoreInks at netscape.net (MoreInks)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:29:55 -0700
Subject: Free Shipping !!!
Message-ID: <200207051941.OAA12179@einstein.ssz.com>

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From remailer at aarg.net  Fri Jul  5 14:45:21 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:45:21 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
Message-ID: <2c5c299114a1b1c1c9219ad45fb4aa90@aarg.net>


Seth Schoen writes:
> The Palladium security model and features are different from Unix, but
> you can imagine by rough analogy a Unix implementation on a system
> with protected memory.  Every process can have its own virtual memory
> space, read and write files, interact with the user, etc.  But
> normally a program can't read another program's memory without the
> other program's permission.
>
> The analogy starts to break down, though: in Unix a process running as
> the superuser or code running in kernel mode may be able to ignore
> memory protection and monitor or control an arbitrary process.  In
> Palladium, if a system is started in a trusted mode, not even the OS
> kernel will have access to all system resources.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a "trusted" OS will not peek
at system resources that it is not supposed to?  After all, since the
OS loads the application, it has full power to molest that application
in any way.  Any embedded keys or certs in the app could be changed by
the OS.  There is no way for an application to protect itself against
the OS.

And there is no need; a trusted OS by definition does not interfere with
the application's use of confidential data.  It does not allow other
applications to get access to that data.  And it provides no back doors
for "root" or the system owner or device drivers to get access to the
application data, either.

At http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/2002-07-03.html you provide more
information about your meeting with Microsoft.  It's an interesting
writeup, but the part about the system somehow protecting the app from the
OS can't be right.  Apps don't have that kind of structural integrity.
A chip in the system cannot protect them from an OS virtualizing that
chip.  What the chip does do is to let *remote* applications verify that
the OS is running in trusted mode.  But local apps can never achieve
that degree of certainty, they are at the mercy of the OS which can
twiddle their bits at will and make them "believe" anything it wants.
Of course a "trusted" OS would never behave in such an uncouth manner.


> That limitation
> doesn't stop you from writing your own application software or scripts.

Absolutely.  The fantasies which have been floating here of filters
preventing people from typing virus-triggering command lines are utterly
absurd.  What are people trying to prove by raising such nonsensical
propositions?  Palladium needs no such capability.


> Interestingly, Palladium and TCPA both allow you to modify any part of
> the software installed on your system (though not your hardware).  The
> worst thing which can happen to you as a result is that the system
> will know that it is no longer "trusted", or will otherwise be able to
> recognize or take account of the changes you made.  In principle,
> there's nothing wrong with running "untrusted"; particular applications
> or services which relied on a trusted feature, including sealed
> storage (see below), may fail to operate.

Right, and you can boot untrusted OS's as well.  Recently there was
discussion here of HP making a trusted form of Linux that would work with
the TCPA hardware.  So you will have options in both the closed source and
open source worlds to boot trusted OS's, or you can boot untrusted ones,
like old versions of Windows.  The user will have more choice, not less.


> Palladium and TCPA both allow an application to make use of
> hardware-based encryption and decryption in a scheme called "sealed
> storage" which uses a hash of the running system's software as part of
> the key.  One result of this is that, if you change relevant parts of
> the software, the hardware will no longer be able to perform the
> decryption step.  To oversimplify slightly, you could imagine that the
> hardware uses the currently-running OS kernel's hash as part of this
> key.  Then, if you change the kernel in any way (which you're
> permitted to do), applications running under it will find that they're
> no longer able to decrypt "sealed" files which were created under the
> original kernel.  Rebooting with the original kernel will restore the
> ability to decrypt, because the hash will again match the original
> kernel's hash.

Yes, your web page goes into somewhat more detail about how this would
work.  This way a program can run under a secure OS and store sensitive
data on the disk, such that booting into another OS will then make it
impossible to decrypt that data.

Some concerns have been raised here about upgrades.  Did Microsoft
discuss how that was planned to work, migrating from one version of a
secure OS to another?  Presumably they have different hashes, but it
is necessary for the new one to be able to unseal data sealed by the
old one.

One obvious solution would be for the new OS to present a cert to the chip
which basically said that its OS hash should be treated as an "alias"
of the older OS's hash.  So the chip would unseal using the old OS hash
even when the new OS was running, based on the fact that this cert was
signed by the TCPA trusted root key.

This seems to put more power than we would like into a single trusted
key, though.  It would be interesting to hear what Microsoft has in mind
along these lines.

> (I've been reading TCPA specs and recently met with some Microsoft
> Palladium team members.  But I'm still learning about both systems and
> may well have made some mistakes in my description.)

If you've read the TCPA specs you're way ahead of most of the commentators
here.  You have undoubtedly noted how little connection there is between
the flights of fancy and speculation which have appeared recently and
the actual functionality of the TCPA system.




From maillist at recruiter.com  Fri Jul  5 12:44:21 2002
From: maillist at recruiter.com (Database Quality Control)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:44:21 -0400
Subject: If you wish to NOT receive Recruiter.com Newsletter please follow directions   8500
Message-ID: <IPDWEW0142ATL2zJo7j0001eaff@ipdwew0142atl2>

If you wish to NOT receive Recruiter.com messages please follow
directions below
	
 	 To be removed ( click here
<http://www.recruiter.com/AY/plum_bem/asp/bp_remove.asp?myemail=cypherpu
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Or 

Call 973-691-2000

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their email newsletters are bone fide. 


 	 
 	  	  	 
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From maillist at recruiter.com  Fri Jul  5 12:44:21 2002
From: maillist at recruiter.com (Database Quality Control)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:44:21 -0400
Subject: If you wish to NOT receive Recruiter.com Newsletter please follow directions   8502
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If you wish to NOT receive Recruiter.com messages please follow
directions below
	
 	 To be removed ( click here
<http://www.recruiter.com/AY/plum_bem/asp/bp_remove.asp?myemail=cypherpu
nks at einstein.ssz.com> ) or mail to: remove at recruiter.com 

Or 

Call 973-691-2000

Recruiter.com wants to insure all recipients of 

their email newsletters are bone fide. 


 	 
 	  	  	 
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From hadmut at danisch.de  Fri Jul  5 07:20:02 2002
From: hadmut at danisch.de (Hadmut Danisch)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 16:20:02 +0200
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <006001c223e8$733e4200$6401a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>
References: <20020704205410.GA8220@danisch.de> <006001c223e8$733e4200$6401a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>
Message-ID: <20020705142002.GC9463@danisch.de>


On Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 10:54:34PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> Sure you can use shell scripts. Though I don't understand how a shell
> script will help you in obtaining a dump of the protected data since
> your script has insufficient privileges to read the data. Nor can you
> give the shell script those privileges since you don't have supervisor
> mode access to the CPU. How does your shell script plan to get past the
> memory protection?
> 


That's why I was talking about a shell script (or take any
other program to be interpreted).

What does need to be certified: The shell or the shell script?
The CPU doesn't recognize the shell script as a program, this
is just some plain data entered through the keyboard like
writing a letter. A shell script is not a program, it is
data entered at a program's runtime.

This moves one step forward:

The hardware (palladium chip, memory management, etc.) can
check the binary program to be loaded. So you won'te be able
to run a compiled program and to access protected information.

But once a certified software is running, it takes input
(reading mouse, keyboard, files, asking DNS, connecting 
servers,...). This input might cause (by interpretation, by
bug or however) the certified software to do certain things
which do not comply with DRM requirements.

At this stage, the running binary software itself is the
instance to provide the DRM security, not the palladium 
memory management anymore. 

I agree that this is not yet an "open sesame", but it shows
that the game does not play on the binary/memory management
layer only.

But who controls runtime input?

History shows, that M$ software is anything but able
to deal with malicious input. That's why the world is
using virus filters. That's nothing else than an external
filter to keep malicious input from an attacker away
from the running software.

By analogy, Palladium might require the same: an input
filter between attacker and running software. Since the
"attacker" is sitting in front of the computer this time,
this filter has to be applied to the user interface,
keyboard and mouse.

Maybe they'll install a filter between the keyboard and
the software, thus building a certified keyboard, which
filters out any malicious key sequences. And maybe you
can use your keyboard only, if you have downloaded the
latest patterns (like your daily virus filter update).

I agree that this depends on the assumption that 
the certified software is not perfect and can't
deal with arbitrary input. But that's reality.

Hadmut









From measl at mfn.org  Fri Jul  5 14:20:16 2002
From: measl at mfn.org (Alif The Terrible)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 16:20:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: What's up with openpgp.net?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020702195727.19651K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0207051620020.11678-100000@greeves.mfn.org>




Looks like your DNS is b0rked:

(measl)greeves:/home/measl $ nslookup 207.200.56.4
Server:  ns1.mfn.org
Address:  204.238.179.2

*** ns1.mfn.org can't find 207.200.56.4: Non-existent host/domain
(measl)greeves:/home/measl $ whois 207.200.56.4

Whois Server Version 1.3

Domain names in the .com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

   Server Name: EINSTEIN.SSZ.COM
   IP Address: 207.200.56.4
   Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC.
   Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
   Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com


>>> Last update of whois database: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 04:50:05 EDT <<<

The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
Registrars.




On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Jim Choate wrote:

> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:58:28 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com>
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: CDR: What's up with openpgp.net?
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:51:17 -0500
> From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
> To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject:    
> 
> >From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com  Tue Jul  2 18:50:39 2002
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA31038
> 	for cypherpunks at ssz.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:50:17 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA30729;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:48:07 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:48:07 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022348.SAA30729 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:47:41 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=24725
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:47:41 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:48:06 -0500
> 
> --SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA30686
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:47:41 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA30574;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:46:54 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:46:54 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022346.SAA30574 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA30574.1025653614/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA30574.1025653614/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:46:19 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=22839
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA30574.1025653614/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:46:19 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:46:53 -0500
> 
> --SAA30574.1025653614/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA30520
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:46:19 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA30410;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:45:28 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:45:28 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022345.SAA30410 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA30410.1025653529/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA30410.1025653529/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:45:06 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=20953
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA30410.1025653529/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:45:06 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:45:28 -0500
> 
> --SAA30410.1025653529/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA30378
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:45:06 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA30274;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:44:33 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:44:33 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022344.SAA30274 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA30274.1025653473/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA30274.1025653473/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:43:55 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=19067
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA30274.1025653473/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:43:55 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:44:32 -0500
> 
> --SAA30274.1025653473/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA30201
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:43:55 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA30092;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:42:52 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:42:52 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022342.SAA30092 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA30092.1025653372/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA30092.1025653372/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:42:07 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=17181
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA30092.1025653372/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:42:07 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:42:51 -0500
> 
> --SAA30092.1025653372/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA30017
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:42:07 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA29925;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:40:47 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:40:47 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022340.SAA29925 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA29925.1025653247/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA29925.1025653247/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:40:00 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=15295
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA29925.1025653247/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:40:00 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:40:46 -0500
> 
> --SAA29925.1025653247/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29858
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:40:00 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA29776;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:39:02 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:39:02 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022339.SAA29776 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA29776.1025653142/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA29776.1025653142/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:38:08 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=13409
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA29776.1025653142/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:38:08 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:39:02 -0500
> 
> --SAA29776.1025653142/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29715
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:38:08 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA29581;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:36:42 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:36:42 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022336.SAA29581 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA29581.1025653002/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA29581.1025653002/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:35:48 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=11523
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA29581.1025653002/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:35:48 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:36:42 -0500
> 
> --SAA29581.1025653002/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29494
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:35:48 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA29368;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:34:43 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:34:43 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022334.SAA29368 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA29368.1025652883/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA29368.1025652883/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:34:03 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=9638
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA29368.1025652883/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:34:03 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:34:43 -0500
> 
> --SAA29368.1025652883/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29295
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:34:03 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA29169;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:32:57 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:32:57 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022332.SAA29169 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA29169.1025652777/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA29169.1025652777/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:32:16 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=7132
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA29169.1025652777/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:32:16 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:32:57 -0500
> 
> --SAA29169.1025652777/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29107
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:32:16 -0500
> Received: from weltregierung.koeln.ccc.de (w11g.ff.c0re.23.nu [213.221.113.45])
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29012
> 	for <cpunks at einstein.ssz.com>; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:31:26 -0500
> Received: (qmail 41674 invoked by uid 900); 2 Jul 2002 23:11:30 -0000
> X-Mailsort: cypherpunks
> Received: (qmail 41623 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jul 2002 23:11:27 -0000
> Received: from unknown (HELO einstein.ssz.com) (cpunks at 207.200.56.4)
>   by w11g.ff.c0re.23.nu with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 23:11:27 -0000
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28535
> 	for mailman-cypherpunks at koeln.ccc.de; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:54 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA28409;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:22 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:22 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022320.SAA28409 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA28409.1025652022/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> X-Loop: cypherpunks at koeln.ccc.de
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA28409.1025652022/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:13 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=5191
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA28409.1025652022/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:13 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:22 -0500
> 
> --SAA28409.1025652022/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28392
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:13 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA28340;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:05 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:05 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022320.SAA28340 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA28340.1025652005/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA28340.1025652005/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:46 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=3306
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA28340.1025652005/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:46 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:20:04 -0500
> 
> --SAA28340.1025652005/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/rfc822
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28317
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:46 -0500
> Received: from localhost (localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with internal id SAA28282;
> 	Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:39 -0500
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:39 -0500
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at einstein.ssz.com>
> Message-Id: <200207022319.SAA28282 at einstein.ssz.com>
> To: cpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
> 	boundary="SAA28282.1025651979/einstein.ssz.com"
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
> 
> This is a MIME-encapsulated message
> 
> --SAA28282.1025651979/einstein.ssz.com
> 
> The original message was received at Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:21 -0500
> from cpunks at localhost
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to domains.invweb.net.:
> >>> MAIL From:<cpunks at ssz.com> SIZE=485
> <<< 451 4.7.1 Please try again later
> ... while talking to router.invlogic.com.:
> >>> RCPT To:<cypherpunks at openpgp.net>
> <<< 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> 550 cypherpunks at openpgp.net... User unknown
> 
> --SAA28282.1025651979/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: message/delivery-status
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; einstein.ssz.com
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:21 -0500
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; cypherpunks at openpgp.net
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.1
> Remote-MTA: DNS; router.invlogic.com
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 <cypherpunks at openpgp.net>... Relaying denied. IP name lookup failed [207.200.56.4]
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:39 -0500
> 
> --SAA28282.1025651979/einstein.ssz.com
> Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers
> 
> Return-Path: <cpunks>
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28267
> 	for cypherpunks at openpgp.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:21 -0500
> Received: from locust.minder.net (locust.minder.net [66.92.53.74])
> 	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28250
> 	for <cpunks at ssz.com>; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:19:01 -0500
> Received: from waste.minder.net (daemon at waste [66.92.53.73])
> 	by locust.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g62NAQE25282
> 	for <cpunks at ssz.com>; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:10:26 -0400 (EDT)
> 	(envelope-from cpunks at waste.minder.net)
> Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
> 	by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g62NAPo01239
> 	for cpunks at ssz.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:10:25 -0400
> Received: from locust.minder.net (locust.minder.net [66.92.53.74])
> 	by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g62NAOu01226
> 	for <cpunks at minder.net>; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:10:24 -0400
> Received: from slack.lne.com (dns.lne.com [209.157.136.81])
> 	by locust.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g62NAME25271
> 	for <cpunks at minder.net>; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:10:22 -0400 (EDT)
> 	(envelope-from cpunk at lne.com)
> Received: (from cpunk at localhost)
> 	by slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g62NAK111517
> 	for cpunks at minder.net; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:10:20 -0700
> Received: (from majordom at localhost)
> 	by slack.lne.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g62MoTn11358
> 	for cypherpunks-goingout; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:50:29 -0700
> X-Authentication-Warning: slack.lne.com: majordom set sender to owner-cypherpunks at lne.com using -f
> Message-ID: <3D222E0E.F3C622C7 at cdc.gov>
> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:49:50 -0700
> From: "Major Variola (ret)" <mv at cdc.gov>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U)
> X-Accept-Language: en
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: "cypherpunks at lne.com" <cypherpunks at lne.com>
> Old-Subject: Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Sender: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Loop: cypherpunks at lne.com
> X-spam: 0 
> Subject:  Re: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
> 
> --SAA28282.1025651979/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA28340.1025652005/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA28409.1025652022/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA29169.1025652777/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA29368.1025652883/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA29581.1025653002/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA29776.1025653142/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA29925.1025653247/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA30092.1025653372/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA30274.1025653473/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA30410.1025653529/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA30574.1025653614/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 
> --SAA30729.1025653687/einstein.ssz.com--
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From freepornkhbyxote at mailcab.com  Fri Jul  5 14:28:23 2002
From: freepornkhbyxote at mailcab.com (freepornkhbyxote at mailcab.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 16:28:23 -0500
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From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Jul  5 17:02:39 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 17:02:39 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <2c5c299114a1b1c1c9219ad45fb4aa90@aarg.net>
Message-ID: <3D25D12F.12509.DA38F0@localhost>


    --
On 5 Jul 2002 at 14:45, AARG! Anonymous wrote:
> Right, and you can boot untrusted OS's as well.  Recently there
> was discussion here of HP making a trusted form of Linux that
> would work with the TCPA hardware.  So you will have options in
> both the closed source and open source worlds to boot trusted
> OS's, or you can boot untrusted ones, like old versions of
> Windows.  The user will have more choice, not less.

Yes he will, but the big expansion of choice is for the the seller
of content and software, who will have more choices as to how he
can cripple what he sells you.  For example he can sell you music
that will only play on a particular music player on your
particular machine.

But that is not enough to give the content industry what it wants,
for someone can still break it on one machine, perhaps by
intercepting the bitstream to the the DA, and having broken it on
one machine, can run it on all machines all over the internet.
Break once, run everywhere.

Microsoft has also been talking out of both sides of its mouth, by
saying that this will also protect against break once, run
everywhere.  The only way that this can protect against
break-once-run-everywhere is to reduce user choice, to make it
mandatory that the user can only run government trusted software,
and to reduce seller choice, prohibit sellers from providing
unacceptable software, such as napster like software. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     XQJ33SB0W84Cm4Mw0+3lnN4nsUtaB4B6cIa1dP/2
     2s67UXEL+Y5FHrr52MYArwzRuptDlBNVQIJOj/n/8




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul  5 17:55:27 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 17:55:27 -0700
Subject: "First, get it built into all CPU chips...only _then_ make it
  mandatory."
In-Reply-To: <3f2ca8da85bbf42c8a48cc8a3c2fd40d@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <10080B20-907B-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, July 5, 2002, at 02:50  PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> This describes the system as "opt-in" and that says that it will
> not restrict the choice and options of the owner.  That is, users
> can enable the TCPA system and get their integrity metrics reported
> (these are basically hashes of the BIOS, OS boot loader, etc.), which
> will allow third parties to know that they booted into an unmodified,
> trusted system.  But they always have the choice to boot into a 
> modified,
> patched or untrusted system, and in that case either the TCPA chip will
> report it, or they can forego the use of the TCPA subsystem entirely.
>

As my title suggests, the strategy is clearly ""First, get it built into 
all chips...only _then_ make it mandatory."

Getting TCPA/DRM enforcement circuitry built in to all major CPUs, 
network appliances, and entertainment systems is the first stage. 
Obviously they'll talk about it all being voluntary, user-selectable, 
etc.

Then, perhaps after some major war or terror incident or other trigger, 
major OSes will require the TCPA/DRM features to be running at all 
times. Sure, maybe some little Perl or Java program Joe Sixpack writes 
won't need it, but anything not on the margins will require it.

This is for newer OS versions from Trustworthy Players, not for older 
OSes and older machines. Personally, I expect a lot of people may have 
several machines: the newest entertainment boxes which run TCPA/DRM, 
moderately recent business-type machines which may or may not run it, 
and older machines, which won't.

I know someone (Peter Trei, I think) was saying that the 
three-generations-hence 30 GHz processor running streaming holograms 
will certainly have TCPA running and no one will want to use their 
ancient 5 GHz Pentium 6 machines, but I disagree. I've been running my 
400 MHz G4-based Mac happily for almost three years. It keeps up with 
everything I can plausibly expect it to do with the current generation 
of apps: edit DV movies from my camcorder, run Microsoft Office and 
Mathematica and all the rest at very good speeds, display excellent 
graphics on my LCD screen, and so on. I could upgrade even today to a 
dual 1 GHz G4 tower (2 GHz of G4 being probably about the equivalent of 
a 3 Ghz Pentium 4, based on most benchmarks) and be good for several 
more years. (Though I expect I'll upgrade to

Plus, the trend to have more and more transistors devoted to graphics is 
a critical one: Most compute-intensive tasks will be graphics, running 
on a graphics subsystem. It seems likely that the user of 5-8 years from 
now will have several levels of CPUs: some running security and network 
access programs, some running other appliances and systems, and some 
running at the highest speeds and numbers of transistors, for graphics. 
Such heterogeneous systems make TCPA tough to mandate.

(Like a lot of us, I'm sure, I run several generations of machines. The 
more recent the generation, and hence the lower the noise level and the 
more user-friendly, the longer I am likely to keep them running. No way 
will I junk all these great machines just because TCPA isn't running on 
them. And, by the way, this applies in _spades_ to the millions of DVD 
players, Xboxes with DVDs, PlayStations with DVDs, laptops with DVDs, 
and computers with DVDs. This huge base of DVDs being sold, this huge 
base of systems able to play these DVDs, and the lack of real interest 
in HDTV points to a much longer lifetime for DVDs than some would have 
hoped. I see virtually zero interest in HDTV, qua HDTV. What I do see 
are more people using line doublers and Radeon 8500XP-type systems to 
boost the resolutions of already-good-enough DVDs to get rid of any 
trace of pixellation or lines. Your mileage may vary, but this is what I 
see. And out across America, I see virtually nil interest in whatever is 
supposed to be coming after DVD.)

--Tim May
"That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Fri Jul  5 10:09:04 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Fri,  5 Jul 2002 19:09:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Need voluntary/optional TCPA/Palladium quote
Message-ID: <c44bf040ec4b0ffe8b9d353d812093fe@remailer.privacy.at>


[Repost]

Lucky asks:

> I am looking for a quote by a TCPA or Palladium principal that states
> that TCPA and/or Palladium will be voluntary or optional. Google was not
> helpful. Did anybody on here run across such a quote in one of the
> interviews recently published? Please include the URL/citation.

The TCPA FAQ at http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/Website_TCPA_FAQ_ver1.1.pdf
includes the following:

: 13. What has the TCPA done to preserve privacy?
:
: The TCPA believes that privacy is a necessary element of a trusted system.
: The TCPA Specification has taken specific steps to enhance trust while
: preserving privacy.  The system owner has ultimate control and permissions
: over private information and must "opt-in" to utilize the TCPA subsystem.
: Integrity metrics can be reported by the TCPA platform, but do not
: restrict the choice and options of the owner preserving openness.

This describes the system as "opt-in" and that says that it will
not restrict the choice and options of the owner.  That is, users
can enable the TCPA system and get their integrity metrics reported
(these are basically hashes of the BIOS, OS boot loader, etc.), which
will allow third parties to know that they booted into an unmodified,
trusted system.  But they always have the choice to boot into a modified,
patched or untrusted system, and in that case either the TCPA chip will
report it, or they can forego the use of the TCPA subsystem entirely.




From ryan at havenco.com  Fri Jul  5 12:44:39 2002
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 19:44:39 +0000
Subject: Kennenlernen wollt
In-Reply-To: <200207050926.LAA12207@mailbox-6.st1.spray.net>
References: <200207050926.LAA12207@mailbox-6.st1.spray.net>
Message-ID: <20020705194439.GA14663@leopard.venona.net>


I assume since I didn't post this, it's a sign that those who post anonymously
messages and use spray.net as their ISP shouldn't run windows 
worm-vulnerable MUAs? :)

Quoting Ryan Lackey <ryan at havenco.com>:
> Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
> 	name=s35itreiber[1].html
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> Content-ID: <G2S44792R030G>
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-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]        ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.        +44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away   http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From printpal at marketingontarget.net  Fri Jul  5 13:56:29 2002
From: printpal at marketingontarget.net (PrintPal)
Date: 5 Jul 2002 20:56:29 -0000
Subject: Printer Cartridges - Coupon - Save up to 80%
Message-ID: <200207051944.g65Jib4l016843@ak47.algebra.com>

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From 680068 at altavista.com  Fri Jul  5 19:33:19 2002
From: 680068 at altavista.com (J. Laplace)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 21:33:19 -0500
Subject: Did you get my email?
Message-ID: <200207060233.VAA20844@einstein.ssz.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Jul  5 23:20:40 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 23:20:40 -0700
Subject: We have always been at war with Oceania
In-Reply-To: <3D247A24.5C52666E@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020705231038.0ba07e40@idiom.com>


The Indianapolis Star newspaper ran the NYTimes version of this story
with the headline "Drug Peddling Pilots May Get Wings Clipped".
I was assuming it would be about revoking their pilots' licenses
or confiscating their airplanes, but no, it was about
shooting them down and machine-gunning any fleeing passengers,
like they did to the Baptist missionary and her baby last year.
Under Fujimori's dictatorship in Peru, they claim to have shot down
about 25 planes, and some politician made a highly-pleased-with-himself
statement about how it's really discouraged traffickers.

There may be True Believers on the pro-terrorist side,
but cocainistas are in it for money, not ideology -
they're happy to blow up the occasional judge, but they're smart enough
not to try going toe-to-toe with the US military in a shooting war.

At 09:39 AM 07/04/2002 -0700, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=703&e=1&u=/ap/20020704/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_drug_flights_1
>
>President Bush ( news - web sites) is expected to allow resumption of a
>program to force down or
>    shoot down airplanes suspected of carrying drugs in Latin America,
>a senior administration official
>    said Thursday.
>
>Does Mr. Bush understand tit-for-tat?
>Hasn't he figured out that he can bust all the petty hawalas he wants,
>but the Cartels have *cash* to spend, an excellent distribution
>network, and a few submarines?
>Looking for True Believers speaking spanish...
>
>Maybe the Saudis will start taking planes out for carrying ethanol...




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Jul  5 14:50:13 2002
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Fri,  5 Jul 2002 23:50:13 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Need voluntary/optional TCPA/Palladium quote
Message-ID: <3f2ca8da85bbf42c8a48cc8a3c2fd40d@dizum.com>


[2nd Repost]

Lucky asks:

> I am looking for a quote by a TCPA or Palladium principal that states
> that TCPA and/or Palladium will be voluntary or optional. Google was not
> helpful. Did anybody on here run across such a quote in one of the
> interviews recently published? Please include the URL/citation.

The TCPA FAQ at http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/Website_TCPA_FAQ_ver1.1.pdf
includes the following:

: 13. What has the TCPA done to preserve privacy?
:
: The TCPA believes that privacy is a necessary element of a trusted system.
: The TCPA Specification has taken specific steps to enhance trust while
: preserving privacy.  The system owner has ultimate control and permissions
: over private information and must "opt-in" to utilize the TCPA subsystem.
: Integrity metrics can be reported by the TCPA platform, but do not
: restrict the choice and options of the owner preserving openness.

This describes the system as "opt-in" and that says that it will
not restrict the choice and options of the owner.  That is, users
can enable the TCPA system and get their integrity metrics reported
(these are basically hashes of the BIOS, OS boot loader, etc.), which
will allow third parties to know that they booted into an unmodified,
trusted system.  But they always have the choice to boot into a modified,
patched or untrusted system, and in that case either the TCPA chip will
report it, or they can forego the use of the TCPA subsystem entirely.




From MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org  Sat Jul  6 05:08:47 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org (MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:08:47 -0500
Subject: Lose 16 Pounds In 10 Days GUARANTEED!!!                   17738
In-Reply-To: <00001ddf6221$00000e74$00001aa2@.>
Message-ID: <react-14137846@mail.hal-pc.org>


The domain home.com no longer accepts email.
If you are trying to email someone with an @home.com
email address you should contact them by other means
to get their new email address.

--- 
<Postmaster at hal-pc.org>




From members at ebay.com  Sat Jul  6 16:35:09 2002
From: members at ebay.com (members at ebay.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:35:09 -1600
Subject: Lose 16 Pounds In 10 Days GUARANTEED!!!                   17738
Message-ID: <00001ddf6221$00000e74$00001aa2@.>

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From mv at cdc.gov  Sat Jul  6 07:57:09 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:57:09 -0700
Subject: Piracy is wrong
Message-ID: <3D270545.E92590A2@cdc.gov>


At 08:33 AM 7/5/02 +0300, Mikko Sdreld wrote:
>If there were
>no copyright laws, I bet you would have to sign all sort of things to
get
>tv channels home. And yes, it would be quite a pain in the ass to do
this
>way 'afterwords' when people already have tv's and expect them to work
>without doing anything.

1. Simply done by hacking a few lines of legal code when you sign your
subscriber agreement
(eg to a cable service)

2. In a poodle-run society you can consider paying the BBC tax as
consenting to an agreement

3. Other oppressive societies may consider the RF spectrum as State
property and simply use
their threat of violence to force contracts on passive interceptors of
signals.  (And woe to the
'trespassers' who would actually transmit..)




From MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org  Sat Jul  6 06:06:31 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org (MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 08:06:31 -0500
Subject: Put $3,500 cash in your pocket in two weeks!                   13410
In-Reply-To: <00006a084bad$000045ed$000006a3@.>
Message-ID: <react-14139209@mail.hal-pc.org>


The domain home.com no longer accepts email.
If you are trying to email someone with an @home.com
email address you should contact them by other means
to get their new email address.

--- 
<Postmaster at hal-pc.org>




From copymydvd at consumerpackage.net  Sat Jul  6 01:31:21 2002
From: copymydvd at consumerpackage.net (CopymyDVD)
Date: 6 Jul 2002 08:31:21 -0000
Subject: Copy DVD Movies to CD-R
Message-ID: <200207060828.g668S34l018580@ak47.algebra.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Jul  6 10:16:31 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:16:31 -0700
Subject: Smart ID Cards Planned for Sailors to Spot Terrorists
In-Reply-To: <p05111a18b94926a06991@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706093426.0b99bdc8@idiom.com>


Bob - This isn't really cryptography-related, and I can't post to DCSB,
but this does seem like Cypherpunks material.
What an <insert several paragraphs of sailor-type language here/>
outrageous proposal!   Can't sail without some government
fingerprinting you, laser-scanning your eyes, and
throwing you in a huge database?  <more nautical language/>.

I'd expect the ILO to be socialist - they are a big union after all -
but I wouldn't expect them to be totalitarians.
Sure, it's a way to create a harder-to-avoid union card,
and a way for their biggest customers to be forced to hire their people
by using government pressure to enforce it.  It's also a surveillance
mechanism to let management keep track of sailors they dislike,
prevent politically incorrect people from getting jobs as sailors,
give governments additional control over sailors in port,
private sailors, and refugees who can't afford to travel on airplanes,
and gives large governments an increased excuse to interfere with
high-seas traffic between other countries under the pretense of
checking whether all the sailors are documented.

 From a technology perspective, the interesting paragraph is
         The plans have drawn criticism from seafarer's groups
         concerned that port authorities may insert information in
         so-called ``smart'' identification
         documents without the cardholder's knowledge.
Sure, smart cards with non-user-viewable data can easily have
extra data in them saying the user is a "Communist" or "union organizer"
or did scab labor or is a Muslim or a Jew or a Rastafarian.
And it's easy for port authorities to send copies of sailors' photos
to their local police in case they're wandering around town.

But with the Internet reaching everywhere, either by wire or satellite,
the information doesn't need to be hidden in the card.
The card says that you're "Sailor #12345678", so they can look you up
on any website they want - not just the ILO's "paid their union dues"
database, and Interpol's "Never been caught smoking dope" database,
and the shipping companies' "Not a union troublemaker" database",
and the "originally from _this_ country even though they're now American" 
database,
and Blacknet's databases on "gets in Bar Fights" and "scab laborers".

                         Bill Stewart

At 06:10 PM 07/03/2002 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20World%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_topworld&T=markets_box.ht&s2=ad_right1_windex&bt=ad_position1_windex&box=ad_box_all&tag=worldnews&middle=ad_frame2_windex&s=APSMyZRY2U21hcnQg
>
>Bloomberg News
>
>Top World News
>
>07/03 13:20
>Smart ID Cards Planned for Sailors to Spot Terrorists (Update1)
>By Amy Strahan Butler
>
>Washington, July 3 (Bloomberg) -- The identities of more than 500,000
>commercial sailors worldwide would be verified through thumb or iris scans
>under tough, new anti-terrorism standards backed by the U.S. and other
>industrialized nations.
>
>``The whole idea is to come up with a worldwide system for positive,
>verifiable identification of seafarers,'' said Mary Covington, associate
>director of the Washington office of the International Labor Organization,
>a United Nations-affiliated group that's developing the standards.
>
>The labor organization got a big boost when representatives of the Group of
>Eight nations -- the U.S., Japan, Germany, the U.K., France, Canada, Italy
>and Russia -- endorsed the standards during a meeting in Canada last week.
>
>The plans have drawn criticism from seafarer's groups concerned that port
>authorities may insert information in so- called ``smart'' identification
>documents without the cardholder's knowledge.
>
>Those concerns are being swept aside as the drive to close loopholes in
>shipping security has gained momentum since Sept. 11 in the U.S., where
>less than 2 percent of cargo entering ports is inspected by the U.S.
>Customs Service.
>
>After the terrorist attacks, the Coast Guard began requiring ships to
>notify ports 96 hours prior to arrival and to submit a list of crew members.
>
>Card-Carrying Sailors
>
>Commercial sailors in countries that ratify the ILO standards would be
>required to carry identification cards similar to driver's licenses that
>also contain biometric information, such as a thumbprint or iris scan.
>Under the proposal, port authorities would be able to verify the identity
>of the card bearer by scanning his thumb or eye.
>
>The credentials could be issued to more than a half-million shipping
>employees as governments attempt to tighten port security to prevent
>terrorist activities.
>
>``This would help produce uniform treatment of seafarers,'' said Chris
>Koch, president of the World Shipping Council, a trade association
>representing more than 40 shipping companies, including Atlantic Container
>Line AB and Crowley Maritime Corp. ``That's in the interest of not only
>seafarers but of commerce.''
>
>The current ILO convention for identifying shipping employees entering
>foreign ports asks that countries to provide seafarers with documents, such
>as passports, that include their name, date of birth, nationality and photo.
>
>Technology Lag
>
>Once the identification standards are drafted, individual governments would
>be responsible for ratifying and enforcing them. Only 61 countries have
>ratified the ILO's existing documentation standards for commercial sailors.
>
>Critics of the proposal say that technology sophisticated enough to
>differentiate between the characteristics of thousands of irises, for
>example, is still years away.
>
>``There is no perfect biometrics technology,'' the Automatic Identification
>Manufacturers Association of Japan wrote to the ILO. An accurate system
>would lengthen inspection times while a cheaper, faster one would be more
>inaccurate and possibly a target for terrorists, the agency said.
>
>Still, it's important to set the standards and then let the technology
>catch up, said Joseph Cox, president of the Chamber of Shipping of America.
>Biometric characteristics within the identification cards are essential for
>security, Cox said.
>
>``There's no question we're going to have something like that,'' Cox said.
>``We will get there because we have to get there.''
>
>--
>-----------------
>R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
>The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
>44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>The Cryptography Mailing List
>Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to 
>majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Jul  6 12:37:10 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 12:37:10 -0700
Subject: Cracking Dead People's Passwords
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706122523.0ba36020@idiom.com>


One of the usual arguments for key escrow was always
"what if your employee dies and you can't get his data?"
Secret Sharing techniques are of course a better approach,
or at least storing sealed envelopes in company safes
as a much better approach than pre-broken crypto.
There've been a couple of stories in the press recently
where weak passwords also solved the problem.

One was a radio piece, I think NPR, about one of the companies
in the World Trade Center who'd lost their computer administrators
in the 9/11 attacks.  The remaining employees got together and
started telling stories about their co-workers - their interests,
their family members, where they'd gone on vacation, their dogs' names, etc.
They got most of the passwords.  (It was a piece about modern management
styles, and how in older hierarchical companies there'd be fewer
people who knew the new employees well enough to do that.)

The other was about the loss of the database of the personal
library collection of one of the main linguists studying one of
the two main Norwegian dialects.   It's now been cracked...

RISKS-FORUM Digest 22.13
  http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/22.13.html


From raine79 at mystupidschool.com  Sun Jul  7 01:35:13 2002
From: raine79 at mystupidschool.com (raine79 at mystupidschool.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 13:35:13 -1900
Subject: R e :   W h a t   y o u     w a n t e d !                      BQEXBAH
Message-ID: <000042f81068$00005b62$00003829@mail.cinfo.ru>

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From ljespo8206q25 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  6 16:50:00 2002
From: ljespo8206q25 at hotmail.com (ljespo8206q25 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 13:50:00 -1000
Subject: Has the burden of debt got you down? Let us help! Its FREE                                                          5476-4
Message-ID: <011d80c21b7e$8224b1a6$7be28dd3@rjepmc>

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From michellemichelle at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  6 13:51:57 2002
From: michellemichelle at yahoo.com (michelle)
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:51:57
Subject: would u like to make 10,000 dollars or more buying and selling cars???
Message-ID: <200207061748.g66Hmf4l020168@ak47.algebra.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Jul  6 14:20:21 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 14:20:21 -0700
Subject: Jonathan Zittrain on data retention, an "awful idea"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020627144213.01be7878@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706133029.0ba07b98@idiom.com>


Sigh.  Back when the US Feds were still trying to push Key Escrow on the
National Information Infrastructure, I started research for an April 1 RFC
for the National Information Infrastructure Data Entry Escrow Protocol, 
NIIDEEP,
and proposed NIIDEEP Information Network Protocol Implementation Government
Standard, NIIDEEPINPIGS.  (Didn't get it finished by April 1 :-)

Because after all, there's no sense escrowing our crypto keys if you
don't also escrow the cyphertext - some of Eric Hughes's talks on
Message Escrow and Data Retention Policies were excellent explanations
of why those was the critical issues.

If the US Feds and Eurocrats would like us to provide them with all of our 
data,
the existing internet would need to double in size to transport all of it
to the appropriate government data storage facilities, or more than double
if separate copies need to be provided to multiple national governments,
or much more if local governments such as city trade commissions need copies.
Since this is clearly unrealistic, even with the demise of the E-Bone,
transmission will require the use of off-line data transmission technology.
Waiting for approval of new government standards would take too long, and
lose access to valuable data because of the resulting delay of several years,
but there are several existing standards for data storage that can be applies.

My long-lost research had the FIPS (US Federal Information Processing 
Standards)
references for several of them, but the current environment requires
the corresponding European standards as well, and I'll need assistance.
But there's also been progress!  RFC 1149 (Avian Carriers) has been 
implemented,
though scalable implementation and dual-source requirements may require
genetic reconstruction of the Passenger Pigeon to supplement current 
carrier species.
Modular methods uses standard data storage formats and separate transmission.
Standards widely supported in the US include Hollerith cards,
1600 bpi 9-track tapes with EBCDIC character sets and fixed block sizes and 
LRECLs,
and ASCII-format punch tape (with country-specific standards for recycled 
paper content.)
8-inch floppy disks have also been widely used, and support both
CP/M and RT11 file system formats.
Are there corresponding European standards for data storage?
Transmission methods for data storage media include International
Postal Union standards for link layer and addressing formats and pricing,
though I'm not directly familiar with standards for shipping containers
where data encapsulation is required.

                 Thanks;  Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com


>From: Jon Zittrain <zittrain at cyber.law.harvard.edu>
>Subject: Re: FC: "Data retention" scheme marches forward in European 
>Parliament
>
>I've written something opposing this at 
><http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/0708/062.html>.
>....
>Consider the range of proposals for unobtrusive but sweeping Internet 
>monitoring. Most of them are doable as a technical matter, and all of them 
>would be unnoticeable to us as we surf. Forbes columnist Peter Huber's 
>idea is perhaps the most distilled version. Call it the return of the lock 
>box. He asks for massive government data vaults, routinely receiving 
>copies of all Internet traffic--e-mails, Web pages, chats, mouse clicks, 
>shopping, pirated music--for later retrieval should the government decide 
>it needs more information to solve a heinous crime. (See the Nov. 12 
>column at forbes.com/huber.)
>
>The idea might sound innocuous because the data collected would remain 
>unseen by prying eyes until a later search, commenced only after legal 
>process, is thought to require it. Make no mistake, however: The idealized 
>digital lock box and many sibling proposals are fundamentally terrible 
>ideas. Why?
>....
>
>Jonathan Zittrain, Harvard law professor; codirector, Berkman Center for 
>Internet & Society.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Jul  6 14:36:14 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 14:36:14 -0700
Subject: Revenge of the WAVEoids: Palladium Clues May Lie In AMD 
  Motherboard Design
In-Reply-To: <03c801c21d98$87010260$0100a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>
References: <p05111a20b94031b205b7@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706142900.0ba07a50@idiom.com>


At 10:07 PM 06/26/2002 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>An EMBASSY-like CPU security co-processor would have seriously blown the
>part cost design constraint on the TPM by an order of magnitude or two.

Compared to the cost of rewriting Windows to have a infrastructure
that can support real security?  Maybe, but I'm inclined to doubt it,
especially since most of the functions that an off-CPU security
co-processor can successfully perform are low enough performance that
they could be done on a PCI or PCMCIA card, without requiring motherboard 
space.
I suppose the interesting exception might be playing video,
depending on how you separate functions.

(Obviously the extent of redesign is likely to be much smaller in the
NT-derived Windows versions than the legacy Windows3.1 derivatives that
MS keeps foisting upon consumers.  Perhaps XP Amateur is close enough to
a real operating system for the kernel to be fixable?)

>I am not asserting that security solutions that require special-purpose
>CPU functionality are not in the queue, they very much are, but not in
>the first phase. This level of functionality has been deferred to a
>second phase in which security processing functionality can be moved
>into the core CPU, since a second CPU-like part is unjustifiable from a
>cost perspective.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Jul  6 14:49:45 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 14:49:45 -0700
Subject: mount filesystem and run a program when hotplugged
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206281723180.8701-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org
  >
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706144609.0ba63008@idiom.com>


At 05:29 PM 06/28/2002 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>I've bought me a little (32 MBytes) hotpluggable USB flash stick (a
>TrekStor). It mounts fine, but what I'd like to do is to automount it, and
>fire up a program (I intend to put my keyring on it) if hotplugged.
>
>The system I'm testing this on is RH 7.3.
>
>I've been using mount -t vfat /dev/sda /mnt/usbhd to mount it manually and
>put diverse entries into /etc/fstab, to no avail. Any suggestions?

I don't know how to do that, though it certainly sounds like an
invitation for viruses to migrate around on USB keyring sticks.

Is there CDROM autorun code that runs on Linux that could be adapted?




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Jul  6 15:59:46 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:59:46 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <002e01c21edc$2069fad0$9532a8c0@abc>
References: <928c41e66854fd5d093509cdcdbddc99@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706155104.0b9e9038@idiom.com>


At 09:43 PM 06/28/2002 +0200, Thomas Tydal wrote:
>Well, first I want to say that I don't like the way it is today.
>I want things to get better. I can't read e-books on my pocket computer,
>for example, which is sad since I actually would be able to enjoy e-books
>if I only could load them onto my small computer that follows my everywhere.

You may not be able to read an Adobe\(tm Brand E-Book\(tm,
but that just means you'll need to buy electronic books from
publishers that don't use that data format - whether it's
raw ascii text or Palm-formatted text or PalmOS DRMware that
you can also view on your PC using an emulator in glorious 160x160-pixel 
format :-)
Of course, if your PC's home country of Nauru has Software Police
implementing some local equivalent of the DMCA, that emulator
that you need for debugging may be illegal.

...
>How good is Winamp if it can't play any music recorded in 2004 or later?
>Given that Windows Media Player can play all your tunes and it takes a
>reboot to switch to Winamp, who wouldn't stick with WMP?




From ashwood at msn.com  Sat Jul  6 18:31:23 2002
From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood)
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:31:23 -0700
Subject: Closed source more secure than open source
References: <19644b6e446618b92d13ea000f36fb96@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <00ee01c22556$58c33b00$6501a8c0@josephas>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anonymous" <nobody at remailer.privacy.at>

> Ross Anderson's paper at
> http://www.ftp.cl.cam.ac.uk/ftp/users/rja14/toulouse.pdf
> has been mostly discussed for what it says about the TCPA.  But the
> first part of the paper is equally interesting.

Ross Andseron's approximate statements:
Closed Source:
> "the system's failure rate has just
> dropped by a factor of L, just as we would expect."

Open Source:
bugs remain equally easy to find.

Anonymous's Statements:
>For most programs, source code will be of
> no benefit to external testers, because they don't know how to program.

> Therefore the rate at which (external) testers find bugs does not vary
> by a factor of L between the open and closed source methodologies,
> as assumed in the model.  In fact the rates will be approximately equal.

> The result is that once a product has gone into beta testing and then into
> field installations, the rate of finding bugs by authorized testers will
> be low, decreased by a factor of L, regardless of open or closed source.

I disagree, actually I agree and disagree with both, due in part to the
magnitudes involved. It is certainly true that once Beta testing (or some
semblance of it) begins there will be users that cannot make use of source
code, but what Anonymous fails to realize is that there will be beta testers
that can make use of the source code.

Additionally there are certain tendencies in the open and closed source
communities that Anonymous and Anderson have not addressed in their models.
The most important tendencies are that in closed source beta testing is
generally handed off to a separate division and the original author does
little if any testing, and in open source the authors have a much stronger
connection with the testing, with the authors' duty extending through the
entire testing cycle. These tendencies lead to two very different positions
than generally realized.

First, closed source testing, beginning in the late Alpha testing stage, is
generally done without any assistance from source code, by _anyone_, this
significantly hampers the testing. This has led to observed situations where
QA engineers sign off on products that don't even function, let alone have
close to 0 bugs. With the software engineers believing that because the code
was signed off, it must be bug-free. This is a rather substantial problem.
To address this problem one must actually correct the number of testers for
the ones that are effectively doing nothing. So while L is the extra
difficulty in finding bugs without source code, it is magnified by something
approximating (testers)/(testers not doing anything). It's worth noting that
(testers) > (testers not doing anything) causing the result K =
L*(testers)/(testers not doing anything), to tend towards infinite values.

In open source we have very much the opposite situation. The authors are
involved in all stages of testing, giving another value. This value is used
to adjust L as before, but the quantities involved are substantially
different. It must be observed, as was done by Anonymous, that there are
testers that have no concept what source code is, and certainly no idea how
to read it, call these harassers. In addition though there are also testers
who read source code, and even the authors themselves are doing testing,
call these coders. So in this case K = L*(harassers)/(harassers+coders).
Where it's worth noting that K will now tend towards 0.

It is also very much the case that different projects have different
quantities of testers. In fact as the number of beta testers grows, the
MTBD(iscovery) of a bug must not increase, and will almost certainly
decrease. In this case each project must be treated separately, since
obviously WindowsXP will have more people testing it (thanks to bug
reporting features) than QFighter3
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/qfighter3/ the lest active development on
sourceforge). This certainly leads to problems in comparison. It is also
worth noting that it is likely that actual difficulty in locating bugs is
probably related to the maximum of (K/testers) and the (testers root of K).
Meaning that WindowsXP is likely to have a higher ratio of bugs uncovered in
a given time period T than QFighter3. However due to the complexity of the
comparisons, QFighter3 is likely to have fewer bugs than WindowsXP, simply
because WindowsXP is several orders of magnitude more complex.

So while the belief that source code makes bug hunting easier on everyone,
is certainly not purely the case (Anonymous's observation), it is also not
the case that the tasks are equivalent (Anonymous's claim), with the
multiplier in closed source approaching infinite, and open source towards 0.
Additionally the quantity of testers appears to have more of an impact on
bug-finding than the discussion of open or closed source. However as always
complexity plays an enormous role in the number of bugs available to find,
anybody with a few days programming experience can write a bug free Hello
World program, but it takes significantly more effort to write something the
complexity of Windows or Linux bug-free. That is where open source receives
the biggest boost, where Microsoft has a limited number of software
engineers, and the Linux development process which has fewer testers but
many more developers. This will reduce the number of bugs simply due to the
effort put into the process by developers.

Which is better? That depends entirely on your situation.
                    Joe




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Jul  6 19:05:20 2002
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:05:20 -0700
Subject: TPM cost constraint [was: RE: Revenge of the WAVEoid]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706142900.0ba07a50@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c2255a$c14dc920$6401a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>


Bill wrote:
> At 10:07 PM 06/26/2002 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> >An EMBASSY-like CPU security co-processor would have seriously blown 
> >the part cost design constraint on the TPM by an order of 
> magnitude or 
> >two.
> 
> Compared to the cost of rewriting Windows to have a 
> infrastructure that can support real security?  Maybe, but 
> I'm inclined to doubt it, especially since most of the 
> functions that an off-CPU security co-processor can 
> successfully perform are low enough performance that they 
> could be done on a PCI or PCMCIA card, without requiring motherboard 
> space.

Upon re-reading the paragraph I wrote, I can see how the text might have
been ambiguous. I was trying to express that there was a cost constraint
on the part. Adding the cost of an EMBASSY or SEE environment to the
purchase of every new PC is more than the market for bare-bones or even
mid-range PC's will bear.

--Lucky




From codyv_ at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  7 05:40:21 2002
From: codyv_ at hotmail.com (codyv_ at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:40:21 -1600
Subject: ADD A LITTLE SPICE TO LIFE!                    25806
Message-ID: <00002f9f136c$00002957$00007365@accordant.net>

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From cooperrl at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  7 08:37:30 2002
From: cooperrl at hotmail.com (cooperrl at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:37:30 -1600
Subject: Fw: Ink Prices Got You Down?              LO
Message-ID: <000046f41b46$00000f39$00007bd0@aui.fr>

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From danar3 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  7 08:37:34 2002
From: danar3 at hotmail.com (danar3 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:37:34 -1600
Subject: Fw: Do You Use Your Printer Alot?                    PKEH
Message-ID: <000002f226d6$00006332$00007bd6@auinc.net>

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From Jeri_Birkland2002 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  7 00:23:57 2002
From: Jeri_Birkland2002 at yahoo.com (Jeri Birkland)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 0:23:57 +-0500
Subject: Digital e-Book Publishing FREE Software Download
Message-ID: <200207081506.KAA09408@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jeffers at brick.net  Sat Jul  6 22:42:24 2002
From: jeffers at brick.net (Gary Jeffers)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:42:24 -0500
Subject: "First, get it built into all CPU chips...only _then_ make it mandatory."
Message-ID: <000b01c22579$36e5de20$89934ad1@garyjeff>


My fellow Cypherpunks,

   Tim May writes:

>Then, perhaps after some major war or terror incident or other trigger,
>major OSes will require the TCPA/DRM features to be running at all
>times. Sure, maybe some little Perl or Java program Joe Sixpack writes
>won't need it, but anything not on the margins will require it.

   This then brings up the question of Open Source operating systems like
the (GNU) Linux distributions and the BSD operating
systems. Is the TCPA/DRM feature code to be published or censored out? For
the source code, will the censored code
be a binary file? This could be a mess. I believe that there was a
discussion of US mandated Malice code in Open
Source operating systems on the Cypherpunks list recently, but I couldn't
find it with a Google search. Anybody got a
Cypherpunk Hyperarchive link?

   If the above happens, it would keep the coding anarchists busy for years
:-) Recompiling your operating system with
an outlaw file included would be an anarchic and patriotic act. It could
also knock down Microsoft market share.

   I suspect the the US solution would be hardware. All new hardware would
be maliced and old hardware would become
obsolete.

Yours Truly,
Gary Jeffers

Beat State!!!





From kenkenney at hotmail.com  Sat Jul  6 22:00:54 2002
From: kenkenney at hotmail.com (G4M-AMERICA)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 01:00:54 -0400
Subject: ==> (( cypherpunks Try "G4m" $1,000,000/ Yr,  Millionaire Cash System, Change Your Life !!! )) <==
Message-ID: <200207070510.AAA19801@einstein.ssz.com>

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From al at qaeda.org  Sun Jul  7 07:13:54 2002
From: al at qaeda.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithym)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 07:13:54 -0700
Subject: TPM cost constraint [was: RE: Revenge of the WAVEoid]
Message-ID: <3D284CA1.B3879F7B@qaeda.org>


At 07:05 PM 7/6/02 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:,>
Adding the cost of an EMBASSY or SEE environment to the,>purchase of
every new PC is more than the market for bare-bones or even,>mid-range
PC's will bear.,>,>--Lucky,>

Too bad PCMCIA cardreaders aren't widespread, then a bank could give
away smartcards
which would be arguably more secure than browserware.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Jul  7 08:33:14 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 08:33:14 -0700
Subject: "First, get it built into all CPU chips...only _then_ make it mandatory."
In-Reply-To: <000b01c22579$36e5de20$89934ad1@garyjeff>
Message-ID: <3D27FCCA.7652.8194BD@localhost>


    --
On 7 Jul 2002 at 0:42, Gary Jeffers wrote:
> I suspect the the US solution would be hardware. All new  
> hardware would be maliced and old hardware would become   
> obsolete.

The plan, as envisaged by our enemies, is that first almost  
everyone will voluntarily run a "trusted" operating system in 
order to view copyrighted entertainment.   The major capability of 
the new hardware will be to advertise to servers that trusted 
software is in control.  Then new hardware that is willing to run 
an "untrusted" operating system will be banned. After all, only 
pirates, drug trafficers, money launderers, and child 
pornographers are running untrusted software. Then only properly 
degreed people will be authorized to work on untrusted operating 
systems and hardware campable of running them.  The qualifications 
for being properly degreed, like the qualifications for medicine, 
will become increasing related to control and less related to 
competence.  Unauthorized possession of untrusted hardware will 
become subject to increasingly severe sanctions, and net access 
will only be possible through a gateway and proxies running 
trusted sofware.

Of course the flaw in this is step one -- almost everyone runs a  
"trusted" operating system.   When step one does not seem to be  
happening, it will be announced to be largely complete, and then  
step two will be launched prematurely, and so will encounter  
considerable hostility..

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     c6oGyTOTR4sjs5j10gZI6c8osgJ1nsUjWBiuVfcv
     2tuCE2J8F56JYFA6IB8E7zAWovOi9DOy+tkuBnRCm




From test2 at test2.com  Sat Jul  6 17:37:07 2002
From: test2 at test2.com (���)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:37:07 +0900
Subject: [����] ����� ���ù� ��Ƽ�� �ʴ��մϴ�~~!! ��19�� �̻� ������~~^^* <!--7051-->
Message-ID: <200207070041.TAA16759@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul  7 08:03:42 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 10:03:42 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | MS Palladium Patent (Cryptome)
Message-ID: <3D28584E.40475E58@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/07/133222.shtml?tid=109
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul  7 08:06:59 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 10:06:59 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Commerce Dep't to Hold Public Workshop on DRM
Message-ID: <3D285913.DC95B2FD@ssz.com>


http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/07/07/0522219.shtml?tid=172
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul  7 08:08:47 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 10:08:47 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Rental Car Companies Watching By Satellite, Again
Message-ID: <3D28597F.27A23D55@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/07/007254.shtml?tid=158
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Jul  7 08:32:21 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:32:21 -0400
Subject: Smart ID Cards Planned for Sailors to Spot Terrorists
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706093426.0b99bdc8@idiom.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706093426.0b99bdc8@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <p05111a10b94e0e83257d@[66.149.49.6]>


At 10:16 AM -0700 on 7/6/02, Bill Stewart wrote:


> Bob - This isn't really cryptography-related, and I can't post to DCSB,
> but this does seem like Cypherpunks material

I try not to post "news" to cypherpunks. :-). I post *lots* of news to the
dbs list, of course...

To prevent spamming DCSB is subscriber only, as are all my own lists.

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Jul  7 13:04:49 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:04:49 -0700
Subject: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
In-Reply-To: <3D2413CF.2759.519B04@localhost>
References: <ffcf7a376d7adfc8342bc9b92a3752a8@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020707130004.04a84ac8@idiom.com>


At or about 09:22 AM 07/04/2002 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com replied thusly:
> > If they can't even ban crypto, you think they'll be able to ban
> > Perl?
>
>They cannot ban crypto without first banning Perl.  That was the
>point of the Crypto-on-a-T-Shirt movement.  Obvious solution.
>First ban Perl, then ban crypto ten years later.  After all, why
>would anyone want to use Perl unless they are running a web site?
>If just anyone is allowed to run a web site, they can do all kinds
>of scams and push all kinds of lies.  Besides which hacking will
>make the cow's milk dry up.

The point was more that the programs were trivial and short,
and Perl was used because it's good for writing short unreadable programs.
There were also LISP implementations in about four lines,
though I don't think anybody got them down to three or two -
but they were much more readable, being basically straightforward
mathematical notations wrapped in lots of parentheses.

However, good crypto and compact Perl both have the advantage that it's
hard to distinguish them from line noise, and thus it's hard to
detect either one....




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Jul  7 13:22:50 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:22:50 -0700
Subject: Smart ID Cards Planned for Sailors to Spot Terrorists
In-Reply-To: <p05111a10b94e0e83257d@[66.149.49.6]>
References: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706093426.0b99bdc8@idiom.com>
  <5.1.1.6.2.20020706093426.0b99bdc8@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <E17RFmQ-0006ek-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>


Bob "Open Mike" Hettinga  kariokaed:

>I try not to post "news" to cypherpunks. :-). I post *lots* of news to the
>dbs list, of course...
>
>To prevent spamming DCSB is subscriber only, as are all my own lists.

Rolling in the phsst-shot EVA, shitting my spacesuit, wailing for yo 
momma's impaired irony: gameboy, that's not a joystick.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Jul  7 13:41:30 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:41:30 -0700
Subject: Protection of Ideas
In-Reply-To: <65E9F218-8F80-11D6-BCE6-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <1a7f898529d17c6edd1ffdb2830feb76@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020707131212.04ad0c98@idiom.com>


At 12:01 PM 07/04/2002 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>On Monday, July 1, 2002, at 01:10  PM, Anonymous wrote:
>>If we don't get DRM, that's probably what we will end up with: government
>>subsidies of the arts.
>
>About 20 years ago the American program "60 Minutes" did a nice piece on 
>how the Dutch government, using reasoning identical to yours,  was paying 
>artists a stipend for their artistic output. Warehouses and warehouses 
>were being filled with the crud generated by these subsidized artists.

We also have that in the US, these daya particularly with artists whose 
preferred
medium is television, and in the past lots of WPA stuff, often on gov't 
buildings.
The National Endowment for the Arts subsidizes a range of works from
deep, emotionally complex performance art by Karen Finlay to Jesse Helms's 
favorite
black-velvet paintings of Elvis :-)

>>Most musicians and other artists won't be able to
>>make enough money to live on even if their works are relatively popular.

That's the case today - see Courtney Love's rants.
90% of the artists in the record business don't make money today,
or at least not for more than a couple years of obscurity with
an occasional 15 minutes of fame.  This is somewhat related to the
problem that 90% of everything is crap, but unfortunately there's
not always a close correlation between the two 90%s. :-)


>So? Not my problem.
>After all, most would-be writers and actors can't make enough money
>on their ideas and artistic expression to live on without also
>working as waiters and waitresses and driving trucks.

A century ago, music was largely an individual, family, or
social activity, with most paid performers receiving payments for
live performances in front of audiences, though sound recordings and
player pianos were starting to emerge and commercial sheet music
had been around since about the 1840s.  The transformation of their work
from performing live into preparing packaged goods for mass distribution
is a relatively recent thing, and much of it dates from about the 50s
and the adoption of the transistor radio.  Some of it's also the
emergence of CDs as a durable product (since playing vinyl
records is a fundamentally destructive process.)

>>The government will have to tax consumers and distribute the proceeds
>>to artists (and the RIAA, etc) in order to protect the content industry.

Feh.  They've already taxed us heavily for decades, not in money but in kind,
by nationalizing the airwaves and parceling them out to the politically 
connected.


>And to fill warehouses with CDs no one wants, with paintings no one wants,
>with stages where actors perform plays for each other because the public
>won't voluntarily pay, and with software programs which the market didn't 
>want.

There used to be a lot of this - we called it community theater,
and it's still thriving in the socialist community I grew up near.
In the rest of the country, too many people stopped doing that
when they got television.


>...[dongles]....
>However, it is NOT a function of a legitimate minimal government
>to *require* that I buy a computer with certain features.

I agree, and I'd also say that using anti-trust arm-twisting to
forbid Microsoft from bullying manufacturers into implement it
is *also* not a legitimate function of a minimal government.




From sender4128n08 at aol.com  Sun Jul  7 02:44:00 2002
From: sender4128n08 at aol.com (sender4128n08 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:44:00 +0400
Subject: Welcome !                                                   9837DeLE-8
Message-ID: <016e65c64a8a$6358a1e0$4ce84ab5@havaca>


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============================================
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==========================================
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===========================================
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============================================
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============================================
ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED
ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !
===========================================
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate
Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.
 
Note: Our fully automated system will remove if you send an email to rmvhjjsss77_9 at yahoo.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line.


9037mVuj5-324PGus9892CCLT5-417aiPs1083omli4-076vBSg0454qfxb0-678HlOV5278ZhPA7-2l74




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul  7 14:38:25 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:38:25 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | EFF And MPAA On Broadcast Flags (HDTV & program reuse)
Message-ID: <3D28B4D1.EA6E1E8A@ssz.com>


http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/07/07/2014201.shtml?tid=129
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mdpopescu at subdimension.com  Sun Jul  7 08:06:27 2002
From: mdpopescu at subdimension.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 18:06:27 +0300
Subject: Artists
Message-ID: <003601c225c7$de357480$a36e9cd9@mark>


Regarding our recent thread on copyrights and artists who won't create
anymore if they're not getting paid, has anyone ever played with the WinAmp
plug-ins? Some of them are amazingly beautiful.

Now, are they upset that people copy them? On the contrary - some of them
are accused of creating bogus accounts to boost the reputation of their
plug-ins, or lower that of their best competitors. So much for "we won't
create if we aren't paid" - and, again, I'm not talking Britney Spears or
Picasso here, I'm talking beauty.

Mark




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Jul  7 18:52:24 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 18:52:24 -0700
Subject: DRM as a Smart Contract
In-Reply-To: <a9804301f210249ae3a944978a0b1c23@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <595D5178-9215-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, July 7, 2002, at 04:51  PM, Anonymous wrote:

> Nick Szabo created the idea of Smart Contracts several years ago.
> http://www.best.com/~szabo.  These would be self-enforcing agreements
> that were based on technology rather than laws.  It all sounded cool at
> the time.
>
> But isn't DRM a form of Smart Contract?  If I need a special viewer to
> download some content, and that viewer enforces the terms of the 
> contract
> which allows me to do the download, that enforcement happens without
> any laws.  It is all handled by the technology.  It's a Smart Contract.

It's a technologically-enforced contract with a specific machine, not 
with a person, corporation, or other entity.

I wouldn't call this a "smart contract," as if it were something new, 
because processor ID and "per seat" software seats have been around for 
a long, long time. (Others have mentioned what Sun has had, and I will 
mention that the Symbolics Lisp Machines I worked with in the mid-80s 
had processor IDs on the motherboards which software licenses for 
expensive software (KEE, the Knowledge Engineering Environment, from 
Intellicorp) could and did check.

And if this infrastructure is mandated by government, it becomes a lot 
more than a variation on dongles.

>
> It's interesting how ideas can sound good until you realize that they
> won't let you take other people's creative output without their consent.
> Maybe it's time for cypherpunks to put principle over greed.

"Put principle over greed"?! What makes you think this list is involved 
in Microsoft's scheme?



--Tim May
""Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who 
approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but 
downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." 
--Patrick Henry




From coole_zegt_hallo at hotmail.com  Sun Jul  7 19:08:51 2002
From: coole_zegt_hallo at hotmail.com (coole_zegt_hallo)
Date: Sun,07 Jul 2002 19:08:51 PM
Subject: begrippenlijst 2002 recht
Message-ID: <200207071713.MAA29789@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Jul  7 19:22:04 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:22:04 -0700
Subject: DRM as a Smart Contract
In-Reply-To: <a9804301f210249ae3a944978a0b1c23@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <3D2894DC.6178.2D39B6F@localhost>


    --
On 8 Jul 2002 at 1:51, Anonymous wrote:
> Nick Szabo created the idea of Smart Contracts several years
> ago. http://www.best.com/~szabo.  These would be self-enforcing
> agreements that were based on technology rather than laws.  It
> all sounded cool at the time.
>
> But isn't DRM a form of Smart Contract?  If I need a special
> viewer to download some content, and that viewer enforces the
> terms of the contract which allows me to do the download, that
> enforcement happens without any laws.  It is all handled by the
> technology.  It's a Smart Contract.

Voluntary DRM is indeed a form of smart contract,

If there was no pressure from the content industry, if copyright
and patent law was not expanding lawlessly and corruptly, in
defiance of technological trends, it would not worry me.

If the smarts were in a dongle that that you attached to your USB
port, or in a program that you could run or not run, it would not
worry me.

The trouble is that this idea looks as the a stalking horse for
the policeman inside your computer.

The history of this idea is as follows:

The entertainment industry proposed and lobbied for an proposal to
stop ordinary consumers to from having any more real computers.
They wanted legislation, the SSSCA which would prohibit consumers
from buying computers that could be programmed to do whatever the
programmer desired.  The computer industry went ballistic,
foreseeing that customers would refuse to "upgrade" to these new,
crippled, computers, and the proposal appears dead in the water. 
However it is the nature of businessmen to always try to make a
deal, so any such conflict will be followed by some attempt to
make a settlement with the entertainment industry, and
palladium/DRM seems to be such a settlement.

On the one hand, if the DRM is truly voluntary, it will not hurt
upgrade sales, so the computer industry genuinely wants DRM to be
truly voluntary, just as claimed.

On the other hand, if DRM computers are acceptable to the masses,
and are usually run in DRM mode, then IF they are widely accepted,
the computer industry could accept a law mandating involuntary DRM
in all new computers without losing sales.

 Thus DRM represents a marketing feeler -- it represents the
computer industry trying to see to what extent it can make
computers acceptable to the content industry without making them
unacceptable to the user. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Fj1T7cM+dvYj4GMSBURIK+ul0L/XR5VWtbl9sy9W
     2xMtrLIAKzh9iwHyUsHVLaWYcMGUbl0BDKb4uVHAf




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Sun Jul  7 19:24:38 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DRM as a Smart Contract
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020707201654.00a27510@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207071914160.16352-100000@eskimo.com>


Anonymous joked:
> >Maybe it's time for cypherpunks to put principle over greed.

and
On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Ed Stone wrote:
>
> If a large set of content providers adopt, as a cartel, a specific, single
> form of smart contract that requires the same specific form of hardware
> that they approve, and such adoption freezes out non-approved hardware from
> maintaining commercial scale, then questions of monopoly and collusion
> arise, and the question of greed seems to shine strongest on the cartel, in
> my view.
>
> Regardless, to look at the entertainment industry and cypherpunks as a
> group, some might suspect the greater greed is not among the cypherpunks.
> The largest single cost was distribution. Digital communications can make
> that essentially free. When may we expect a price reduction that parallels
> the cost reduction? Or are they greedy?

Greedy might be an understatement :-)  Really amazingly stupid is more
like it.  The entertainment industry should be bought out by the Bell's,
and then the telco's can resume control of *all* com-links.  They won't
need DRM since they'll own all the data and the pipes it goes thru.

If the entertainment industry wants safe platforms, they can sell them.
If you buy one, you should expect it's going to have some specific limited
uses.  I don't think there's any problem with that.  I've got a problem
with it being mandated, and I've told my congress critters so.  With luck,
they'll listen.

All those guys can be as greedy as they want.  If they don't deliver a
product, they got no sales to begin with.  For lots of "content creators",
the net bypasses the greedy guys.  I don't see that going away too soon.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From estone at synernet.com  Sun Jul  7 17:24:42 2002
From: estone at synernet.com (Ed Stone)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:24:42 -0400
Subject: DRM as a Smart Contract
In-Reply-To: <a9804301f210249ae3a944978a0b1c23@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020707201654.00a27510@localhost>


At 07:51 PM 7/7/02, you wrote:
>Nick Szabo created the idea of Smart Contracts several years ago.
>http://www.best.com/~szabo.  These would be self-enforcing agreements
>that were based on technology rather than laws.  It all sounded cool at
>the time.
>
>But isn't DRM a form of Smart Contract?  If I need a special viewer to
>download some content, and that viewer enforces the terms of the contract
>which allows me to do the download, that enforcement happens without
>any laws.  It is all handled by the technology.  It's a Smart Contract.
>
>It's interesting how ideas can sound good until you realize that they
>won't let you take other people's creative output without their consent.
>Maybe it's time for cypherpunks to put principle over greed.


If a large set of content providers adopt, as a cartel, a specific, single 
form of smart contract that requires the same specific form of hardware 
that they approve, and such adoption freezes out non-approved hardware from 
maintaining commercial scale, then questions of monopoly and collusion 
arise, and the question of greed seems to shine strongest on the cartel, in 
my view.

Regardless, to look at the entertainment industry and cypherpunks as a 
group, some might suspect the greater greed is not among the cypherpunks. 
The largest single cost was distribution. Digital communications can make 
that essentially free. When may we expect a price reduction that parallels 
the cost reduction? Or are they greedy?




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Jul  7 21:30:41 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:30:41 -0700
Subject: Closed source more secure than open source
In-Reply-To: <00ee01c22556$58c33b00$6501a8c0@josephas>
References: <19644b6e446618b92d13ea000f36fb96@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020707151025.04ae7e98@idiom.com>


At 06:31 PM 07/06/2002 -0700, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
>First, closed source testing, beginning in the late Alpha testing stage, is
>generally done without any assistance from source code, by _anyone_, this
>significantly hampers the testing.

>This has led to observed situations where
>QA engineers sign off on products that don't even function,
>let alone have close to 0 bugs.

I don't know where *you* develop software, but anywhere I've been or seen
that had QA engineers signing off on non-functional products would
either lead to serious re-education for the engineers or
an internal understanding that the company values ship dates above
capabilities (not that that's unknown in the industry,
and admittedly closed-source development shops are more likely
to have business models that emphasize shipping, but Darwin fixes them.)

One of the purposes of having QA people work without source
is so that they're actually testing documented functions of the product,
rather than testing what the code looks like it can do successfully.
Except for those products that are code designed to be integrated
into other programs, where actual code matters, that modularity is critical.
You test the interfaces, not the innards.  It's still an infinite problem,
but it's much less infinite, and lets you hit what you need.
If the interfaces don't work, you're supposed to figure that out,
though sometimes late-alpha code is known to be missing major pieces --
you usually work around this by writing lots of test drivers.
You're also supposed to find out if there are missing pieces that
somehow escaped the design phase.

White-box testing lets you go beyond that to find subtle nasty bugs
that escaped unit testing and developer code reviews,
and have a better view into holes in the system
that a malicious attacker can break.  It's important for security,
because there are often things you don't find during black-box testing.

>With the software engineers believing that because the code
>was signed off, it must be bug-free. This is a rather substantial problem.

A much more serious problem is coders and testers believing that the
design documentation they're working from, if any, reflects what the
system is supposed to do and what it's supposed to not do.

>To address this problem one must actually correct the number of testers for
>the ones that are effectively doing nothing.

In commercial code with internal testers, you're not supposed to need this.
Obviously, for community-tested code, duplication in code coverage is common,
and one challenge for the open-source business is finding ways to
improve test coverage in volunteer testing, by adding some kind of 
coordination.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul  7 21:59:20 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 23:59:20 -0500
Subject: Guardian Unlimited Observer | International | Earth 'will expire by 2050'
Message-ID: <3D291C28.645CDE1F@ssz.com>


http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,750783,00.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ngps at netmemetic.com  Sun Jul  7 09:22:18 2002
From: ngps at netmemetic.com (Ng Pheng Siong)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 00:22:18 +0800
Subject: Windows Internet security tools
Message-ID: <20020708002218.A1580@vista.netmemetic.com>


Hi,                                                                             

I reckon this is a good crowd to ask this of. 

I'm helping a Win98-using friend acquire some Internet usage security.  I
think he needs at least the following: 

1. An anti-virus package. (Google reports a free-for-personal-use one at
www.free-av.com.)

2. PGP, www.pgpi.org. My friend uses Eudora. What is a good Eudora PGP
shell? (I use GPG. I'm assuming GPG interoperates with, say, PGP 7.)

3. A disk/file encryption tool. Any to recommend? (Free for personal use
preferred.)

4. One of those personal firewall/anti-snoopware thingy?

5. Anything else?

TIA. Cheers.                                                                    

(Please cc replies. I'm not subscribed to the list.)
-- 
Ng Pheng Siong <ngps at netmemetic.com> * http://www.netmemetic.com




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sun Jul  7 16:51:06 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Mon,  8 Jul 2002 01:51:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: DRM as a Smart Contract
Message-ID: <a9804301f210249ae3a944978a0b1c23@remailer.privacy.at>


Nick Szabo created the idea of Smart Contracts several years ago.
http://www.best.com/~szabo.  These would be self-enforcing agreements
that were based on technology rather than laws.  It all sounded cool at
the time.

But isn't DRM a form of Smart Contract?  If I need a special viewer to
download some content, and that viewer enforces the terms of the contract
which allows me to do the download, that enforcement happens without
any laws.  It is all handled by the technology.  It's a Smart Contract.

It's interesting how ideas can sound good until you realize that they
won't let you take other people's creative output without their consent.
Maybe it's time for cypherpunks to put principle over greed.




From MoreInks at netscape.net  Mon Jul  8 06:19:15 2002
From: MoreInks at netscape.net (MoreInks)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:19:15 -0700
Subject: Free Shipping !!!
Message-ID: <200207081126.g68BQt4l018368@ak47.algebra.com>

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From MoreInks at netscape.net  Mon Jul  8 06:19:31 2002
From: MoreInks at netscape.net (MoreInks)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:19:31 -0700
Subject: Free Shipping !!!
Message-ID: <200207081131.GAA07557@einstein.ssz.com>

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From remailer at remailer.xganon.com  Mon Jul  8 05:43:04 2002
From: remailer at remailer.xganon.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:43:04 -0500
Subject: Why we must stay silent no longer
Message-ID: <86d7124638638c156af44e3bb1fb9c19@remailer.xganon.com>


The death of democracy is at hand.

http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/hertz.htm




From ericm at lne.com  Mon Jul  8 08:22:37 2002
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:22:37 -0700
Subject: TPM cost constraint [was: RE: Revenge of the WAVEoid]
In-Reply-To: <3D284CA1.B3879F7B@qaeda.org>; from al@qaeda.org on Sun,
  Jul 07, 2002 at 07:13:54AM -0700
References: <3D284CA1.B3879F7B@qaeda.org>
Message-ID: <20020708082237.A17132@slack.lne.com>


On Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:13:54AM -0700, Optimizzin Al-gorithym wrote:
> At 07:05 PM 7/6/02 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:,>
> Adding the cost of an EMBASSY or SEE environment to the,>purchase of
> every new PC is more than the market for bare-bones or even,>mid-range
> PC's will bear.,>,>--Lucky,>
> 
> Too bad PCMCIA cardreaders aren't widespread, then a bank could give
> away smartcards
> which would be arguably more secure than browserware.

Smartcards are more secure than browsers.  But normal cardreaders
don't keep malware that's on the PC from accssing the card.  It can snoop
on the user's PIN, or in the case of the few cardreaders that keep the PIN
local, wait for the card to be unlocked and then use it for illegitimate
purposes.  The smartcard still depends on the security of the PC.
It's not any more secure than the PC, its just portable.  That hasn't
been enough to make smartcards take off for PC-based applications.

A few companies have made secure smartcard readers that prevent this
type of attack.  One of those was N*able Technologies, which Wave bought
in '99.  The current EMBASSY chip is one that N*Able designed.  I was
Nable's chief architect.  I left after the buyout.  Nable's system was
for secure commerce, not DRM, but as a secure building block it can be
used for lots of things.

I don't know WAVE's pricing for the current EMBASSY chip, but based on
prices for earlier Nable chips, I'd guess that they could sell it for
$5-10 in quantity.  That's still a significant adder to the cost of a
motherboard.   But it isn't insurmountable.   The beneficiary pays for it,
not the end user.  All it takes is one customer who can get enough value
from it to make it worthwhile.  Microsoft is a good example... simply
increasing their license payment rate for Word from 50% of users to 60%
would make them more than enough $$ to cover the cost of an EMBASSY or
similar in most PCs.  The potential anti-competitive side effects then
come for free.

Of course marketing for PCs will attempt to get users to pay more
for the "security enhanced" DRM-equipped PCs.  But the added cost
doesn't need to be paid by the users to make it viable.

Eric




From InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com  Mon Jul  8 08:02:58 2002
From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (Insight on the News)
Date: 08 Jul 2002 11:02:58 -0400
Subject: Insight on the News Email Edition
Message-ID: <200207081103740.SM00688@broadbandpublisher.com>


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From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Jul  8 11:10:46 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:10:46 -0700
Subject: Artists
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A01E90F35@exna07.securitydynamics.com>
Message-ID: <3D297336.13293.A61255@localhost>


    --
On 8 Jul 2002 at 11:25, Trei, Peter wrote:
> Some forms of creation require little in the way of up-front 
> investment. Others do. Consider movies. While some of the people 
> involved get to do creative work that they love, many don't, and
> they all have to make a living somehow. Would the Key Grip, the
> Focus Puller, or the Greensmen be willing to do their work for
> the sheer creativity of it all? I don't think so. The principle
> shooting for the LOTR trilogy took over 18 months, in New
> Zealand. Do you think they did it (just) for love?
>
> Art forms which require large prior investments need some form
> of remuneration beyond egoboo. Otherwise, they just won't 
> happen.

Let us imagine that all efforts to enforce copyright on the
internet were abandoned, and that everyone in the world has a fat
pipe capable of downloading movies.

First, most people who want to see lord of the rings want to see
it a theatre.  The scene in the mines of Moria, the backgrounder
on the origin of the ring, the dark riders crossing the river, are
all written for the big screen, and are worthless on a small
screen.

Secondly, most people who want to see lord of the rings do it as a
pilgrimage, so they do it when it first comes out, and they take a
date, or go with a bunch of friends.  It is positively
sacriligious to see it on a small screen, or to see it without
making a special occasion of it.  After all this is not just
another Buffy episode.

Thus fat pipes and an end to internet copyright would have had no
significant effect on the profits from the Lord of the Rings. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     yChuaeD+SEzCvlFD0mqB+hzz5FRvjXKoB2jlE3YR
     2zwEhi3Z8qxfMmJZNZxpa/U8dYGHfoDQgo1ChqYRO
D




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Jul  8 11:10:46 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:10:46 -0700
Subject: Why we must stay silent no longer
In-Reply-To: <86d7124638638c156af44e3bb1fb9c19@remailer.xganon.com>
Message-ID: <3D297336.30115.A61291@localhost>


    --
On 8 Jul 2002 at 7:43, Anonymous wrote:
> The death of democracy is at hand.
>
> http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/hertz.htm

If only it were true.
    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     ZWTx0h+Wns4sOe0bvQDCC5yxL/l1ayPHLSFxALlf
     2ivdW1sOwz1ROwPZkwE7sSfx0JwsvJtmnYYcuHshY




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jul  8 08:25:41 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:25:41 -0400 
Subject: Artists
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A01E90F35@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Marcel Popescu[SMTP:mdpopescu at subdimension.com]
> 
> Regarding our recent thread on copyrights and artists who won't create
> anymore if they're not getting paid, has anyone ever played with the
> WinAmp
> plug-ins? Some of them are amazingly beautiful.
> 
> Now, are they upset that people copy them? On the contrary - some of them
> are accused of creating bogus accounts to boost the reputation of their
> plug-ins, or lower that of their best competitors. So much for "we won't
> create if we aren't paid" - and, again, I'm not talking Britney Spears or
> Picasso here, I'm talking beauty.
> 
> Mark
> 
True, but I'll bet almost anything that none of the plugins were written
by corporations expecting to get a return on their investment.

Some forms of creation require little in the way of up-front investment.
Others do. Consider movies. While some of the people involved get
to do creative work that they love, many don't, and they all have
to make a living somehow. Would the Key Grip, the Focus
Puller, or the Greensmen be willing to do their work for the sheer 
creativity of it all? I don't think so. The principle shooting for the
LOTR trilogy took over 18 months, in New Zealand. Do you think
they did it (just) for love?

Art forms which require large prior investments need some
form of remuneration beyond egoboo. Otherwise, they just won't
happen.

Peter Trei





From hgh9157 at scicmail.com  Sun Jul  7 20:35:27 2002
From: hgh9157 at scicmail.com (Dale Beauregard)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:35:27 +0800
Subject: skatcmim11,HGH ... Phenomenal Aphrodisiac!
Message-ID: <GANDERN7kf0V4N5EHTt000045fe@gander>

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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jul  8 08:58:37 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:58:37 -0400 
Subject: Closed source more secure than open source
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A01E90F37@exna07.securitydynamics.com>




> Bill Stewart[SMTP:bill.stewart at pobox.com]
> 
> At 06:31 PM 07/06/2002 -0700, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> >First, closed source testing, beginning in the late Alpha testing stage,
> is
> >generally done without any assistance from source code, by _anyone_, this
> >significantly hampers the testing.
> 
[...]


One factor which has been ignored so far is reputation 
effect the two regimes have on the programmer, and
the implications of that on how he writes.

In virtually every Open Source project I've seen, the code 
is signed. Not cryptographically -  the identity of the creator 
is known to anyone who chooses to look at the code.

If they know that there is a distinct possibility that a large number
of critical, intelligent, strangers are going to be looking over their
code, most programmers will make an extra effort to write well,
by the metrics their peers value. Thus, not only will the code work,
but it will be better commented, cleaner, and clearer. This leads
to fewer weak spots. You can't sweep dirt under the rug if there 
is no rug.

In an ideal world, of course, closed source programmers would
do the same, but human nature being what it is, they often don't.

With signed Open Source, every line of code becomes part of
an engineers reputation, part of the way they are judged by 
peers and potential employers. 

Peter Trei









From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  8 09:28:47 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:28:47 -0400
Subject: Smart ID Cards Planned for Sailors to Spot Terrorists
In-Reply-To: <E17RFmQ-0006ek-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <5.1.1.6.2.20020706093426.0b99bdc8@idiom.com> 
  <5.1.1.6.2.20020706093426.0b99bdc8@idiom.com>
  <E17RFmQ-0006ek-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <p05111a5db94f67c1100c@[66.149.49.6]>

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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  8 12:45:31 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:45:31 -0700
Subject: Artists
In-Reply-To: <3D297336.13293.A61255@localhost>
Message-ID: <430E21D6-92AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


There's a flaw in this argument:

On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 11:10  AM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> Let us imagine that all efforts to enforce copyright on the
> internet were abandoned, and that everyone in the world has a fat
> pipe capable of downloading movies.
>
> First, most people who want to see lord of the rings want to see
> it a theatre.  The scene in the mines of Moria, the backgrounder
> on the origin of the ring, the dark riders crossing the river, are
> all written for the big screen, and are worthless on a small
> screen.
>
> Secondly, most people who want to see lord of the rings do it as a
> pilgrimage, so they do it when it first comes out, and they take a
> date, or go with a bunch of friends.  It is positively
> sacriligious to see it on a small screen, or to see it without
> making a special occasion of it.  After all this is not just
> another Buffy episode.
>
> Thus fat pipes and an end to internet copyright would have had no
> significant effect on the profits from the Lord of the Rings.


People would go to theaters to see the film in all of its glory, true.

But the theaters would no longer, in your scenario, have to fork over 
money to the studios.

(Unless you are positing some situation where anybody may download any 
film, but then not display it to others. Or that theaters would face 
special regulation by government, etc.)

In any case, I know a _lot_ of people who watch most of their films on 
cable or satellite or DVD. And cable/DVD sell through is an important 
part of studio revenues. An end to copyright would have a _significant_ 
effect on revenue.

Note that I'm not endorsing copyright as it now stands, just disputing 
your point that ending download restrictions would have no effect on 
studio profits.

--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From kenkenney at hotmail.com  Mon Jul  8 11:01:13 2002
From: kenkenney at hotmail.com (G4M-AMERICA)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 14:01:13 -0400
Subject: ==> (( cypherpunks Try "G4m" $1,000,000/ Yr,  Millionaire Cash System, Change Your Life !!! )) <==
Message-ID: <200207081812.NAA10726@einstein.ssz.com>

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From mean-green at hushmail.com  Mon Jul  8 15:47:13 2002
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon,  8 Jul 2002 15:47:13 -0700
Subject: movie distribution post copyright (Re: Artists)
Message-ID: <200207082247.g68MlDu03304@mailserver2.hushmail.com>


>At 10:20 PM 7/8/2002 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>But right now copies of recent release movies (post screen release,
but pre DVD/VHS relase) are not generally available in high quality
format, suitable for projecting.

As you note later, most recent releases to the Net are often lower quality 'cams' shot with consumer quality camcorders.  But not all.  A number of individuals or groups have managed to consistantly create and distribute VHS or better releases.  While not DVD in quality on smaller screens (say below 27-inches) they are more than adequate, sometimes better than the average quality of analog cable reception.  See www.vcdquality.com for recent releases and quality ratings.

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Jul  8 16:35:53 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:35:53 -0700
Subject: movie distribution post copyright (Re: Artists)
In-Reply-To: <20020708222038.A1103844@exeter.ac.uk>
References: <430E21D6-92AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:45:31PM -0700
Message-ID: <3D29BF69.28025.FCDF45@localhost>


    --
Obviously, the end of copyright may well mean a substantial
reduction in the proceeds from big movies, but it will hardly mean
a total end to those proceeds (the powerpuff girl movie is one big
toy advertisment)

How big an effect will a reduction in money mean?

If you go back thirty years, you will notice that lots of movies
were produced on a budget vastly smaller than todays movies.  For
example I noticed a Hitchcock movie where a car and a car wreck
was central to the plot, and most of the story line took place
inside a wrecked car..  However, Hitchcock by use of cheesy camera
angles, avoided any need for the car to suffer any actual damage,
or even the need to go out and buy a wreck.

Go back even further, and people do not bother with production
values at all.   Thus Macbeth says "why upon this blasted heath
you stop our way with such prophetic greeting?", presumably
because Shakespeare was too cheap to have a backdrop painted
depicting a blasted heath.

So the end of copyright will not mean the end of movies, but
merely cheaper effects, and since computers are making effects
cheaper daily, with imaginary landscapes made inside a computer,
and real landscapes massively altered, we probably will not notice
any effect at all.   The landscapes of Lord of the Rings, though
based on real landscapes, were modified beyond recognition in the
computer.

 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     6hvbNtYka8u1qIMniMnCaWBDwMDIldO12gOEblNx
     2Olw67ehBaVGbRFS34c7PmLktRCUKrLNbZub4oTFg




From mburns at tamerlane.ca  Mon Jul  8 13:49:03 2002
From: mburns at tamerlane.ca (Mark Burns)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:49:03 -0400
Subject: Artists
References: <430E21D6-92AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <057401c226c0$f24fd650$0300a8c0@smith>


Tim May:
> People would go to theaters to see the film in all of its glory, true.
>
> But the theaters would no longer, in your scenario, have to fork over
> money to the studios.
>
> (Or that theaters would face special regulation by government, etc.)

Hopefully this 'what-if' world has anti-trust deregulation going hand in
hand with the removal of copyright protection.

At one time, many theatres were owned by the studios and showed the movies
that studio published.




From info at tuguiade.com  Mon Jul  8 09:50:08 2002
From: info at tuguiade.com (info at tuguiade.com)
Date: 8 Jul 2002 16:50:08 -0000
Subject: Tuguiade.com - Todas tus guias, todo tu ocio... al alcance de tu mano
Message-ID: <20020708165008.23384.qmail@zonade.com>

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From johndetr at microsoft.com  Mon Jul  8 17:07:45 2002
From: johndetr at microsoft.com (John DeTreville)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:07:45 -0700
Subject: Correction to cryptome.org
Message-ID: <mailman.626.1575948381.62801.testlist@lists.cpunks.org>

Are you a good contact person for the information on the Microsoft 
DRM patent (6,330,670) on cryptome.org?

The pages linked from http://cryptome.org/ms-drm-os.htm say that 
the authors of this patent (England, DeTreville, and Lampson) were 
identified by Newsweek as Palladium programmers.

I can reliably state that I (DeTreville) am not a Palladium programmer, 
and neither is Butler Lampson.

I believe that the Newsweek article was referring to a different patent. 
I'm sure that the Palladium participants jointly hold a significant number 
of important patents in the field of computer security.

Cheers,

John

-----

John's message has been added to the file at:

  http://cryptome.org/ms-drm-os.htm




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  8 17:08:02 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:08:02 -0700
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
In-Reply-To: <0f2bbb120feac209720c4db0a15b818b@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <EF6FA6F0-92CF-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 04:01  PM, Anonymous wrote:
> be available.  A substantial number of consumers will voluntarily adopt
> DRM if it lets them have a Napster-style system of music on demand,
> with wide variety and convenient downloads, as long as the songs are not
> too expensive.

I doubt it. Napster was popular because people like FREE STUFF!

There were services in Tower Records as long ago as 10 years ago, and 
repeated efforts since, which allowed a patron to pick a set of songs 
and have them recorded onto a customized CD. Cost was comparable to a 
CD. They all failed.

People who were heavy users of Napster, collecting thousands of songs 
(or more), will not be too interested in a system which charges them a 
50 cents or a dollar per song.

And casual users just won't bother.

I expect something like this will happen, but it doesn't significantly 
alter the main issue.

Oh, and it little or nothing to do with DRM circuitry. Most of those who 
download songs will be doing so to put on to their MP3 players, their 
iPods, their own CD-Rs. While the latest Pentium 5 and Opteron machines 
may or may not have DRM circuitry, it's likely that the very target 
market for downloaded music will be using older machines for many years 
to come.


--Tim May
"The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the 
expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Jul  8 18:00:48 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:00:48 -0700
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
In-Reply-To: <0f2bbb120feac209720c4db0a15b818b@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <3D29D350.29690.14A9D8F@localhost>


    --
On 9 Jul 2002 at 1:01, Anonymous wrote:
> If DRM hardware and software are widely available, they reason, 
> it will be that much easier to get legislation passed to make 
> them mandatory. [....]
>
> This argument makes superficial sense, but it ultimately 
> contradicts itself on one major point: if DRM is so successful 
> and widely used as would be necessary for its mandate to be 
> low-cost, then there is no need to require it!

Voluntary DRM can never stop piracy.  With voluntary DRM, people 
can break once on one machine, then run the latest Napster 
replacement on the every machine on the internet in non DRM mode, 
and copy that file that was ripped on one machine, to every 
machine.

Voluntary DRM is only useful to the content industry as a stepping 
stone to compulsory DRM

Voluntary DRM is only useful to the industry to reach the point 
where they can say "Only copyright pirates, terrorists, drug
trafficers, child pornographers, tax evaders, and money launderers
need to run their machines in non DRM mode." 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     7lDwxyaNMRyW/fnz+MbZtTkvvLQYa1vgZGkK9sHP
     2Efd0J6T+9nNeRMcg3Djz42yiJGtYagAGVb1mkkkE




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 19:20:15 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:20:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
In-Reply-To: <3D29D350.29690.14A9D8F@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207081906040.26359-100000@eskimo.com>


On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> Voluntary DRM can never stop piracy.  With voluntary DRM, people
> can break once on one machine, then run the latest Napster
> replacement on the every machine on the internet in non DRM mode,
> and copy that file that was ripped on one machine, to every
> machine.

Obviously.  But if the "content" is on a private net hooked into
private boxes, putting the data onto the public web becomes a touch
more difficult.

> Voluntary DRM is only useful to the content industry as a stepping
> stone to compulsory DRM

Only in some executive's wet dream.  And they've got enough problems
dealing with their accounting division right now :-)

> Voluntary DRM is only useful to the industry to reach the point
> where they can say "Only copyright pirates, terrorists, drug
> trafficers, child pornographers, tax evaders, and money launderers
> need to run their machines in non DRM mode."

And if they can't deliver enough product to make DRM worth while, they
never get that far do they.  If the economics works, they don't need laws,
and if the economics don't work, they won't get laws. When the big boys
figure out how to deliver their stuff with better quality and more
"coolness" than P2P, they'll make plenty of money.

Shit, we might even convince them it's worth while running fiber to every
home on the planet.  If they don't, they're toast anyway.  Teenagers can
wait all day and night for a few songs, but the rest of us don't have time
to waste on it.  With enough bandwidth, DRM becomes irrelevant.  The
recorded past isn't where the cash is, the instantaneous *now* is where
the money gets collected.

Someday they'll figure it out, but I suspect it'll be a teenager that hits
'em over the head with the 2x4.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From nicolescholiz1 at web.de  Mon Jul  8 18:36:03 2002
From: nicolescholiz1 at web.de (nicolescholiz1 at web.de)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:36:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Pictausch??
Message-ID: <200207090136.UAA18417@fw01.ftpamerican.net>



Nachricht von Tina weitergeleitet von uns:

Unser Funchat ist wieder online kannste ja
mal reinschauen ich bin auch immer drin.

ok bis sp�ter

deine TINA




From nicolescholiz1 at web.de  Mon Jul  8 18:36:03 2002
From: nicolescholiz1 at web.de (nicolescholiz1 at web.de)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:36:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Pictausch??
Message-ID: <200207090136.UAA18425@fw01.ftpamerican.net>



Nachricht von Tina weitergeleitet von uns:

Unser Funchat ist wieder online kannste ja
mal reinschauen ich bin auch immer drin.

ok bis sp�ter

deine TINA




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Jul  8 20:39:24 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:39:24 -0700
Subject: Which universe are we in?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c226f2$693928d0$3a04a942@beast>
Message-ID: <762D318C-92ED-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 07:43  PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:

> Dear Tim,
>
>     Are you tacitly assuming some kind of communication between 
> observers
> when you make the claim of a "convergence"? Adsent said communications,
> could we show that the convergence would still obtain? Have you ever 
> seen
> any discussion of the notion of cyclic or periodic gossiping in Comp 
> Sci?
>
>

No, I was arguing that while the future may be multi-worlded, everything 
we know about science (evidence, archaeology, measurements, ...) points 
to a _single_ past.

For example, a single past world line for me, for you, for Hal, for 
Chaucer, for Einstein.

Now we may not know what this world line is very accurately, but as we 
look at more closely, e.g., by examining the photographs someone may 
have taken, or their diaries, or whatever, the more we home in on what 
that world line was. We never look closely and see two or three or N 
different histories, we just see a higher fidelity view of what we must 
assume is the One True Past.

I don't doubt that Hal gets the sense that many potential Hals could 
have resulted in the current Hal...an interesting notion. But everything 
does in fact point to a One True Past which various measurements get 
closer and closer to, and which no measurements contradict.

This is what I meant by "convergence." Homing in, getting closer, 
sharpening the image, filling in the details.

As for "tacitly assuming some kind of communication between observers," 
I am _explicitly_ saying that observers get together and compare 
notes...and they find no contradictions, if they are honest observers.

Hal may have meant something different, perhaps.


--Tim May

--Tim May
(.sig for Everything list background)
Corralitos, CA. Born in 1951. Retired from Intel in 1986.
Current main interest: category and topos theory, math, quantum reality, 
cosmology.
Background: physics, Intel, crypto, Cypherpunks




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul  8 17:50:14 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:50:14 -0400
Subject: Artists
In-Reply-To: <057401c226c0$f24fd650$0300a8c0@smith>
References: <430E21D6-92AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <057401c226c0$f24fd650$0300a8c0@smith>
Message-ID: <p05111a23b94fe3871276@[66.149.49.6]>


At 4:49 PM -0400 on 7/8/02, Mark Burns wrote:


> Hopefully this 'what-if' world has anti-trust deregulation going hand in
> hand with the removal of copyright protection.


Nah. All we need is encryption and a cash-settled digital market. Studios
would do just fine, maybe better.

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From adam at cypherspace.org  Mon Jul  8 14:20:38 2002
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:20:38 +0100
Subject: movie distribution post copyright (Re: Artists)
In-Reply-To: <430E21D6-92AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:45:31PM -0700
References: <3D297336.13293.A61255@localhost>
  <430E21D6-92AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020708222038.A1103844@exeter.ac.uk>


But right now copies of recent release movies (post screen release,
but pre DVD/VHS relase) are not generally available in high quality
format, suitable for projecting.

So one way that the movie distribution industry could plausibly
continue to make money would be rather than the movie theatre being
subject to copyright laws forbidding them from copying and further
distributing, they would be under a private contract not to do that.

Actually I'm not sure what they're doing now -- it would seem likely
that both private contract and copyright are used -- the movie
distributors may easily want to impose more restrictions than those
directly imposed by default copyright.

Post copyright, with private contract only, the movie theatre would
have an interest to comply with the contract due to the penalties
agreed to in the contract, which might include fines, escrowed monies,
or no access to further releases.

The movie industry has so far been succesful from what I've seen in
preventing DVD quality copies being distributed prior to DVD release.
Publicly distributed copies of pre-DVD release movies are "Screeners"
obtained with a CAM corder in the theatre.  Early releases
(unauthorised distribution shortly before general public release) come
from journalists or their guests making screeners from the pre-release
screenings offered to journalists.

The advent of digital projection which doesn't have much deployment at
theatres yet may alter this equation as perhaps it would then become
easier for an insider (a theatre projectionist for example) to convert
the content into MPEG4/DIVX format and retain good quality.

Adam

On Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:45:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> There's a flaw in this argument:
> 
> [...]
> 
> People would go to theaters to see the film in all of its glory, true.
> 
> But the theaters would no longer, in your scenario, have to fork over 
> money to the studios.
> 
> (Unless you are positing some situation where anybody may download any 
> film, but then not display it to others. Or that theaters would face 
> special regulation by government, etc.)
> 
> In any case, I know a _lot_ of people who watch most of their films on 
> cable or satellite or DVD. And cable/DVD sell through is an important 
> part of studio revenues. An end to copyright would have a _significant_ 
> effect on revenue.
> 
> Note that I'm not endorsing copyright as it now stands, just disputing 
> your point that ending download restrictions would have no effect on 
> studio profits.




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Mon Jul  8 16:01:07 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Tue,  9 Jul 2002 01:01:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
Message-ID: <0f2bbb120feac209720c4db0a15b818b@remailer.privacy.at>


Several people have suggested that DRM software is not bad in and
of itself.  So long as it is used voluntarily, it is not infringing
on anyone's freedom.  In fact they will even agree that voluntary DRM
can be a good thing; it increases people's options and can provide a
mechanism where content producers can get paid.

However they oppose DRM anyway, even voluntary DRM.  The reason is because
they see it as the first step towards mandated DRM.  If DRM hardware
and software are widely available, they reason, it will be that much
easier to get legislation passed to make them mandatory.  Most people will
already have systems which comply with the laws, so there will be no great
costs involved in requiring the systems.  In contrast, if no one had DRM
hardware and software installed, then mandating it would be politically
impossible, requiring virtually every computer in use to be junked or at
least to go through an expensive upgrade.  The costs of such a transition
would be enormous, and legislation to mandate DRM would never succeed.

This argument makes superficial sense, but it ultimately contradicts
itself on one major point: if DRM is so successful and widely used as
would be necessary for its mandate to be low-cost, then there is no
need to require it!  Opponents of the legislation need only point out
that consumers are voluntarily adopting the technology and that the
marketplace is working to solve the problem for the record labels and
other content companies.

In fact, there is very little incentive to push for mandating DRM features
on the part of any of the participants in the dispute: content companies
or technology companies.  What they really need to do is to make DRM
become popular as the only way to have a variety of good, legal content
be available.  A substantial number of consumers will voluntarily adopt
DRM if it lets them have a Napster-style system of music on demand,
with wide variety and convenient downloads, as long as the songs are not
too expensive.  The advantages of having a legal system that is immune
to the woes of the P2P world (constant shutdowns of popular systems due
to lawsuits, the problem of bogus data, etc.) will amply justify a modest
fee for the download.

It seems clear that this is the direction the record labels want to
pursue, and the only problem is that right now, if they make downloads
available without DRM restrictions, they will go right into the pirate
networks.  With DRM they have more control over how the data is used,
there will be less piracy, and therefore they can charge less per song.

Legislating the DRM is of no value in this scenario, because people
will still be able to use P2P and other software for piracy, whether
they have software that can support DRM or not.  (We will neglect the
plainly absurd argument that the computational infrastructure of the
entire nation will be changed so that only "authorized" or "approved"
software can run.)  The record labels still must pursuade people that
DRM is worth having, and the way they will do so is by making their data
available at a reasonable price, while continuing their technological and
legal attacks on P2P networks.  Legislating DRM will not substantially
help with any of these subgoals.

The one exception where legislation might be helpful would be for "closing
the analog hole", requirements to detect watermarked data and not process
it.  If all systems could be designed so that they recognized watermarks
in music and video and refused to play them, then that would cut down
on piracy.  But this is not DRM per se, it is really an orthogonal
technology.  One can oppose efforts to legislatively close the analog
hole while still supporting voluntary use of DRM software and hardware.

Ultimately, DRM must succeed as a value proposition for the end user.
Legislation to require DRM-observant software and hardware in all
computers will not establish this value.  By itself, such legislation
will not stop piracy and file sharing.  The only way to stop file sharing
is with massively intrusive legislation that would practically shut
down the net and most businesses as well.  Such a course is impossible
outside of the raving fantasies of the paranoid.  Given the reality of
ongoing file sharing, DRM must succeed by offering good value and the
guarantees of high quality that are not available in a black market.

Legislation of DRM is not in the cards, and this remote, hypothetical
possibility should not stop us from supporting voluntary DRM systems.




From decoy at iki.fi  Mon Jul  8 16:08:50 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 02:08:50 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
In-Reply-To: <3D250472.1AED6883@systemics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207090144400.8130-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


On Thu, 4 Jul 2002, Ian Grigg wrote:

>See also the work of Eric Hughes, John Walker, the AMIX, Robin Hanson
>and others.

Believe me, they're all known to me and properly appreciated.

>Well, the problem is that you are asking too much of one OS.  If you
>want stability, use FreeBSD (we do). If you want security, check out
>OpenBSD. If you want portability, try NetBSD.

But that's precisely my point. If you want to serve an interest which is
widely spread, with little willingness to pay on behalf of each of a
couple of million beneficiaries, you will have a public goods problem. One
way to arrive at such a problem is to demand everything of a single
system. But at the same time there are a number of monolithic problems
which achieve the same by themselves. That's what I was talking about.

>Mind you, it is getting a whole lot better! [...] We've had a lot of
>success with open source.

Of course. We might argue that has to do with the dependency of a gift
economy on income effects feedback which gives a good deal of nice
outcomes when people are nevertheless getting richer. Somewhat pointedly
the question becomes, could Open Source keep up the rise in income by
itself? Is it a productive part of the entire economy or a parasite on
existing forms of welfare creation?

>We had to write Cryptix, that was a business requirement as we needed
>crypto in Java (and Perl) and nobody had done it before. But, once done,
>I didn't want to pay to keep it going. So we open sourced it. We got
>the support and the updates for free, mostly, thereafter.

Again, my point in a nutshell. When a problem is grave enough to warrant
an investment on behalf of a single developer, that single developer
*will* develop the software and, at the very least in the absence of
copyrights, face a very low price on open sourcing the code. But there's
still the kind of software which gives some tens of millions of people a
per capita benefit of, say, $1 a year while requiring a clear, centralized
development effort with considerable cost. Cryptix hardly lies in that
category, even while extremely useful to a number of people.

>But, when it comes down to it, their model failed, because they were
>seduced into the apparent gold mine of PKI...

Aye. PKI is a tarpit. You get into it, but only rarely do you find someone
who cashed out on it. In this case it isn't the market that fails,
though...

>There are other benefits to the open source model: most of the people
>who've volunteered have boosted their CVs and picked up good work
>because of it.

Nobody's putting open source down, here. Far from it. My point was an
economic one, having little to do with those forms of software development
which obviously work. It wasn't even meant to advocate a particular
approach to financing the production of goods infected by the problem.
Instead it was a simple reminder of the limitations of the commonly
accepted image of free market, purely bilateral trade attaining efficiency
in a general sense, without any regard for transaction cost analysis.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From stockselector at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  9 07:00:18 2002
From: stockselector at yahoo.com (stockselector at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:00:18 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <B0000663906@mail.dongil82.co.kr>

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From netkita at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  9 07:30:18 2002
From: netkita at earthlink.net (netkita)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:30:18 -0500
Subject: CP meet at H2K2?
References: <5.1.1.6.1.20020622162735.04c892e8@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <022401c22755$27a31da0$5c79add1@moroni>


When  and  where  is the  CP  meeting  at the  Hotel please.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Stewart" <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
To: "Greg Newby" <gbnewby at ils.unc.edu>
Cc: <cypherpunks at lne.com>; <dave at deltor.to>
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: CP meet at H2K2?


> 
> Several people said yes...
> You're hereby designated as the
>          "Official San Francisco Bay Area Cpunks-Meeting-in-Exile" :-)
> 
> At 07:07 PM 06/20/2002 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> >H2K2, 2600's conference, is at Hotel Penn in New York
> >July 12-14.  http://www.h2k2.net
> >
> >CP contributors who are scheduled include
> >John Young and yours truly.  Maybe others I
> >didn't recognize or see yet.  I heard of a few other
> >tentatives.
> >
> >The full conference schedule should be online within
> >the next couple of days.  I'm thinking of a CP
> >meet Saturday night July 12.  Anyone else gonna be there?
> >   -- Greg




From netkita at earthlink.net  Tue Jul  9 07:32:18 2002
From: netkita at earthlink.net (netkita)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:32:18 -0500
Subject: CP meet at H2K2?
References: <5.1.1.6.1.20020622162735.04c892e8@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <022901c22755$6ebed9e0$5c79add1@moroni>


I would  be  interested  in  a  hookup on  Saturday  or  Friday night.I
will  arrive  on  Wenseday  if  anyone  wants  to  get  together.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Stewart" <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
To: "Greg Newby" <gbnewby at ils.unc.edu>
Cc: <cypherpunks at lne.com>; <dave at deltor.to>
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: CP meet at H2K2?


>
> Several people said yes...
> You're hereby designated as the
>          "Official San Francisco Bay Area Cpunks-Meeting-in-Exile" :-)
>
> At 07:07 PM 06/20/2002 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> >H2K2, 2600's conference, is at Hotel Penn in New York
> >July 12-14.  http://www.h2k2.net
> >
> >CP contributors who are scheduled include
> >John Young and yours truly.  Maybe others I
> >didn't recognize or see yet.  I heard of a few other
> >tentatives.
> >
> >The full conference schedule should be online within
> >the next couple of days.  I'm thinking of a CP
> >meet Saturday night July 12.  Anyone else gonna be there?
> >   -- Greg




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul  9 09:54:08 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:54:08 -0700
Subject: Which universe are we in?
In-Reply-To: <762D318C-92ED-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <7C6E4252-935C-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 08:39  PM, Tim May wrote:
> No, I was arguing that while the future may be multi-worlded, 
> everything we know about science (evidence, archaeology, 
> measurements, ...) points to a _single_ past.
>
>

Sorry about this misdirection to the CP list. It was meant to go to 
another list.


--Tim May




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Jul  9 10:07:05 2002
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Which universe are we in?
In-Reply-To: <762D318C-92ED-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net> from "Tim
  May" at Jul 08, 2002 08:39:24 PM
Message-ID: <200207091707.g69H75E15231@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Time postulates:

> No, I was arguing that while the future may be multi-worlded, everything 
> we know about science (evidence, archaeology, measurements, ...) points 
> to a _single_ past.

The laws of physics, including the laws of quantum mechanics, are
symmetric with respect to the arrow of time, with occasional and rare
exceptions that are only apparent at high magnification.

if quantum mechanical ambiguity exists about the future, then it also
exists about the past.

> For example, a single past world line for me, for you, for Hal, for 
> Chaucer, for Einstein.

> Now we may not know what this world line is very accurately, but as we 
> look at more closely, e.g., by examining the photographs someone may 
> have taken, or their diaries, or whatever, the more we home in on what 
> that world line was. We never look closely and see two or three or N 
> different histories, we just see a higher fidelity view of what we must 
> assume is the One True Past.

As you measure the past by examining the record of it, you of course
collapse wavefunctions, and produce eigenstates of what you are measuring.  
It is not necessary to assume the One True Past existed prior to those
measurments being made, simply because no measurements contradict.

> I don't doubt that Hal gets the sense that many potential Hals could 
> have resulted in the current Hal...an interesting notion. But everything 
> does in fact point to a One True Past which various measurements get 
> closer and closer to, and which no measurements contradict.

This, of course, is the "hidden variable theory," in which we have a One
True Past, (and One True Future) as well, which evolves deterministically,
based in part on degrees of freedom which are by definition unobservable
by any experiment.

If this is true, we have no free will, and Stephen Wolfram's suspicion
that the universe contains only pseudorandomness produced by complex
deterministic mechanisms at a small scale holds true.

Still, Nature abhors overcomplexification, and plain old quantum mechanics
works just fine for predicting the results of experiments.

> This is what I meant by "convergence." Homing in, getting closer, 
> sharpening the image, filling in the details.

> As for "tacitly assuming some kind of communication between observers," 
> I am _explicitly_ saying that observers get together and compare 
> notes...and they find no contradictions, if they are honest observers.

Nowhere does this imply that what was observed always existed in its
observed state prior to the measurement being made.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Jul  9 02:26:26 2002
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:26:26 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: noise under linux speak freely (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207091125260.19407-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org>


Anyone using USB headsets with speakfreely under Linux? I'm having trouble 
getting it to work.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:27:20 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Ivan Popov <pin at math.chalmers.se>
To: Chris Jensen <lamda at get2net.dk>
Cc: speak-freely at fourmilab.ch
Subject: Re: noise under linux speak freely

On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Chris Jensen wrote:

> Hm! You don't describe which Linux distro and if you have compiled yourself
> and with which flags?
> I have had similar  problems , knowing HW was OK , and not yet worked it out
> . Actually I am at the state where I ask: can SF really work under Linux!  Of
> cause , but sometimes more tricky than others ;)

SpeakFreely works "itself" very good. It is its interaction with the
drivers that is far from perfect. Unfortunately John is apparently busy
with other things and has no time for improving the program.

Neither me (who complained regularly and who read the source) have enough
time to contribute to SF.

Speak Freely for Unix needs a rewrite of logic when it outputs
sound. Your problems may be caused by very different matters, but anyway
if you feel motivated - figure out from the source what is supposed to
happen and then you may find why it breaks for you.

The current sound output design is old and made in different
circumstances than Linux computers are now. Hope somebody will redo it.
Native ALSA support may help in case OSS does not provide the necessary
hooks...

Best regards,
--
Ivan


                      * * *

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send E-mail containing
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body (*not* as the
Subject) to speak-freely-request at fourmilab.ch




From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Tue Jul  9 08:52:18 2002
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:52:18 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
Message-ID: <0eb554d6fbbcec2fc3139043ba7234dc@freedom.gmsociety.org>


What are the tax implications of a US resident green card holder, with substantial assets both in his original nation and in the US, of becoming a US citizen?




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From gbnewby at ruby.ils.unc.edu  Tue Jul  9 09:25:52 2002
From: gbnewby at ruby.ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:25:52 -0400
Subject: CP meet at H2K2?
In-Reply-To: <022901c22755$6ebed9e0$5c79add1@moroni>
References: <5.1.1.6.1.20020622162735.04c892e8@idiom.com>
  <022901c22755$6ebed9e0$5c79add1@moroni>
Message-ID: <20020709162552.GC20826@ils.unc.edu>


I heard back from several people interested in this.
Someone on the ground in NYC please pick a time
& place (or we can meet at the conference site and
adjourn someplace suitable).

The full H2K2 schedule is available, http://h2k2.net

In addition to JYA and I, CP speaker presence will include
Peter Wayner and Declan.

 ** Someone else please pick a time and gathering
 ** location.

A good gathering location will be the info desk/vendor
area on the 2nd floor.  There will be some sort of
bulletin board, so a paper message mentioning the
"CP Meet" could go up there.

My suggestion would be Saturday night late, after
Robert Steele's presentation (starts 10:00 pm, will
probably go until midnight).  If that's too late
for CP kids, I'm not sure what to suggest since
sessions run 10a-12a daily.

See you then!

  -- Greg

On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 09:32:18AM -0500, netkita wrote:
> 
> I would  be  interested  in  a  hookup on  Saturday  or  Friday night.I
> will  arrive  on  Wenseday  if  anyone  wants  to  get  together.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Stewart" <bill.stewart at pobox.com>
> To: "Greg Newby" <gbnewby at ils.unc.edu>
> Cc: <cypherpunks at lne.com>; <dave at deltor.to>
> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 6:29 PM
> Subject: Re: CP meet at H2K2?
> 
> 
> >
> > Several people said yes...
> > You're hereby designated as the
> >          "Official San Francisco Bay Area Cpunks-Meeting-in-Exile" :-)
> >
> > At 07:07 PM 06/20/2002 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> > >H2K2, 2600's conference, is at Hotel Penn in New York
> > >July 12-14.  http://www.h2k2.net
> > >
> > >CP contributors who are scheduled include
> > >John Young and yours truly.  Maybe others I
> > >didn't recognize or see yet.  I heard of a few other
> > >tentatives.
> > >
> > >The full conference schedule should be online within
> > >the next couple of days.  I'm thinking of a CP
> > >meet Saturday night July 12.  Anyone else gonna be there?
> > >   -- Greg




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul  9 14:02:53 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:02:53 -0700
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <20020709161919.J14787@seul.org>
Message-ID: <3C70F854-937F-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, July 9, 2002, at 01:19  PM, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

> 		On Tue, Jul 09, at 11:52AM, An Metet wrote:
> | What are the tax implications of a US resident green card holder, 
> with substantial assets both in his original nation and in the US, of 
> becoming a US citizen?
>
> Well, think positive because you're already screwed. If you have a
> greencard, you're tax implications are the same (or have been for me
> thus far) as a US citizen. if you have a green card, you can either give
> it up (for the loss of legal tax juridsdiction of the IRS over you)

Why do you think a person without a green card is exempt from IRS 
jurisdiction?

Unless one's stay is a short one (see below), income or other money 
earned while in the U.S. (and maybe earned outside the U.S. if the IRS 
can make a nexus case) is taxable. Illegal aliens are supposed to file 
tax returns...and they certainly don't have green cards!

Here's what Uncle Sam says:

"You will be considered a U.S. resident for tax purposes if you meet the 
substantial presence test for the calendar year. To meet this test, you 
must be physically present in the United States on at least:

1.	31 days during the current year, and
2.	183 days during the 3-year period that includes the current year 
and the 2 years immediately before that, counting:
*	All the days you were present in the current year, and
*	1/3 of the days you were present in the first year before the 
current year, and
*	1/6 of the days you were present in the second year before the 
current year.

--end IRS quote--

There are some exemptions, for student visa persons and athletes 
competing in games, but basically the idea is that you owe tax on money 
earned in the U.S., regardless of citizenship, green card, or other 
status.

> or
> get a US citizenship since you're already in their jurisdiction anyway.
>

I think this is terrible advice. Becoming a U.S. citizen exposes a 
person to not only the _current year_ tax scheme but also the "for ten 
years after you leave the U.S." tax scheme. (Yes, any U.S. citizen who 
moves anywhere in the world must, technically, file U.S. tax returns for 
10 years after leaving. And pay various kinds of taxes, though the 
amount may be different from what he would have paid had he remained in 
the U.S.)

Also, a person having extensive offshore (outside the U.S.) assets may 
well find his assets are now taxable in the U.S. And for those with 
capital assets not taxed in their home countries (e.g., Germany, Japan), 
this may be quite a shock.

A U.S. passport buys almost no protection. The U.S. will not defend its 
citizens, only its imperialist interests.



--Tim May
"That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Jul  9 12:17:52 2002
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:17:52 -0400 (edt)
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
In-Reply-To: <3D222E0E.F3C622C7@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207091408310.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>


The decompression function could be integrated into the videocard
relieving that CPU burden.   Playback is not problematic.

In fact, I recall seeing MPEG decoder cards back in the early days
of DVD ROM's.

Regardless of this ungreatful Choatism whereby we get off the topic of
just how useless or useful old computers are, while we can certainly use
the old fuckers, the question of upgrading has always been: Does it do
what you want?  If the answer is no, then you upgrade.

Sure, you can revive old hardware with Linux, but you'll find it runs KDE
3.0 or GNOME slower than windows 95 did on the same hardware.  So unless
you're willing to also go to older software (or at least less demanding
software) you've still got a useless machine.

OTOH, if it does work well enough, and you don't care for swapping memos
in Micro$loth Word V283.23 with cow-orkers or don't care about watching
the latest 3d movie on XVD disks, then by all means, if you don't mind the
huge power consumption, use that old iron.

Personally, I do have 8 and 9 year old hardware and find it glacially
slow.  While surfing the web with an old Sun Voyager running a whopping
40MHz SPARC V7 is a bit slow, it's fast enough to get the morning news and
weather report as I drink my coffee.  Sure, that old IBM Thinkpad 365x
with a flying fast Pentium 100 (no that's not P3 or P4, or even P2, plain
ol'e Pentium 1) and 48mb of ram running windblows 95 sucks for most
things, it makes a fine MP3 player for my living room, once nice speakers
are attached, and so on and so forth.

As for the Lisa, I haven't powered up that beastie in years.  But, yes, I
could run LisaWrite and print just fine on dot matrix paper off the lovely
ImageWriter II printer.  Uh huh... I'm sure that such a printout would
make a fine resume.  Care to wager on whether such a printed resume would
even render an interview?

No boys and girls, it's the boiling the frog scenario.  If you try to boil
a live frog in an pot at high heat, the frog will jump out.  If you cover
the pot, well the pot will boil over.  So instead, you don't turn the heat
on high.  Rather you keep the heat low, very low, and as the temperature
rises notch by notch, the frog doesn't notice.  By the time the water is
hot, the frog is already dead.  

Guess who the frog is?


Same here.  Example:

Want to view DVD's, you gotta buy a DVD player or DVDROM for your PC.  
But wait, now you can't watch DVD's you've legally purchased in England
because by contract all DVD players are region specific!  Worse yet, if
you happen to have an old TV that doesn't support RCA in and your DVD
player doesn't have a COAX connection... you can't connect your DVD player
through your VCR, because, guess what, DVD players are bound by contract
to scramble their output with Macrovision and your VCR of course honors
this, so you can't watch DVD's you've purchased in the USA if you have an
old TV!

Never mind that pirates don't even need DeCSS to clone DVD's.  Never mind
that there are plenty of MacroVision remover boxes out there sold as
picture enhancers.  Never mind that none of these things prevent pirates
from copying DVD's.  Never mind that there are "illegal" region free DVD
players out there without Macrovision protection, etc...  No, the whole
point is a legal one brought to you by our friends at the DMCA.  Where a
movie isn't a movie, but a "video device..." right...  So long to your
"Fair Use" right to make a backup copy.  Tough titties if your 3 year old
thought the DVD would be cleaner if washed with sand paper.  You're out
the $30 you've paid for "The Matrix III - Trinity Does Dallas"

So extrapolate, and you'll know what to expect when Palladium and it's ilk
show up.  

Want to watch the next version of what will be DVD? You get a big brother
inside chip.  So it goes.  Want to run Micro$haft Orifice 3003 1/2?  
Gotta have the TCPMA chip in your Pee Cee.. wait, scratch that, you won't
have admin rights on that PC, so it's really "our PC."  And that copy you
bought, nope, not yours either, you were only sold a "license" to use it.  
Part of that license says they can install whatever they want on
your^H^H^H^H^H our PC?  Including back doors?  Including spyware?  
Including marketing gathering information?  Yup.  You grabs your ankles
and you spreads your cheeks.

Or, you just vote with your wallet.  Do you really need Orifice 3003 1/2?
Does your current Pee Cee work just fine?  Great, keep using it.  Need to
print a 3d resume in color on holographic paper?  Cough up $80 at Harbucks
and pay for a crappachino grande and 30 minutes of MicroSoft time and type
up your new resume.  

Or go the Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD route and raise that middle
finger up proudly.  Will you be able to do just as much?  Probably.  But,
oh wait, we forgot, Uncle Sam has padded his wallet from the likes of the
MPAA, RIAA and that new rule about how no Pee Cee without a big brother
chip inside cannot be sold...  Too bad, that.  I guess Jack Vallenti
wanted to close "The Open Source loophole."  Nevermind that there are
perfectly legal uses for linux enabled machines, but "we must close the
open source hole - or they'll compile their own software!"

But wait, what was I thinking, you can't even pay $80, because by now if
you don't have a Microsoft Passport, you don't have a Micro$haft Visa
Social Security Implant(tm).  You don't exist!


Yes, you're right; probably it will never get that far.


Then again, we also thought that only congress could declare war, that
people captured on a battle field carring weapons and shooting at our
soldiers were POW's.  We also thought that in the USA any person arrested
and suspected of a crime was entitled to a lawyer, and a trial, but
defining a new class of criminal called "terrorist" who have no right to
even talk to a lawyer of family and don't have to be charged with a crime,
and go before a military sham tribunal.


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> At 05:19 PM 7/2/02 -0400, Jack Lloyd wrote:
> > Real time video still requires
> >something fairly high end, but give it a year.
> 
> The compression function could be integrated into the videocamera,
> relieving that CPU burden.   Playback is more problematic.




From gabe at seul.org  Tue Jul  9 13:19:19 2002
From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:19:19 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <0eb554d6fbbcec2fc3139043ba7234dc@freedom.gmsociety.org>;
  from anmetet@freedom.gmsociety.org on Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 11:52:18AM
  -0400
References: <0eb554d6fbbcec2fc3139043ba7234dc@freedom.gmsociety.org>
Message-ID: <20020709161919.J14787@seul.org>


		On Tue, Jul 09, at 11:52AM, An Metet wrote:
| What are the tax implications of a US resident green card holder, with substantial assets both in his original nation and in the US, of becoming a US citizen?

Well, think positive because you're already screwed. If you have a
greencard, you're tax implications are the same (or have been for me
thus far) as a US citizen. if you have a green card, you can either give
it up (for the loss of legal tax juridsdiction of the IRS over you) or
get a US citizenship since you're already in their jurisdiction anyway.




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul  9 17:11:13 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:11:13 -0700
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <20020709184046.K14787@seul.org>
Message-ID: <8B896BB0-9399-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, July 9, 2002, at 03:40  PM, Gabriel Rocha wrote:
> The US is one of the few countries that I know of (or about) that do not
> allow people ona  student permit to work.

Mexico does not allow _any_ noncitizen to work!

Except for folks of either a) substantial resources, b) connected with a 
U.S. employer. But try visiting a Mexican city and applying for a job at 
a restaurant, bookstore, whatever. This was a plot element in "The 
Treasure of the Sierra Madre," more than 50 years ago, and it remains 
true today. It is also difficult for non-citizens to work in many 
European nations.

It's always hilarious for me to watch Mexicans screaming "Dat be 
racist! " (whoops, wrong language, but same idea) about how the tens of 
millions of illegal Mexicans who were given permanent residency under 
Simpson-Mozzoli were not enough, that the _new_ flood of Mexicans and 
Salvadorans and Guatemalans and..... should be given "amnesty."

Meanwhile, like I said, see how long you live as an illegal alien in 
Mexico or Nicaragua, and see if they will issue a work permit.


The U.S. is fucked up, to be sure, but talking about other countries 
making it easier for foreigners to work is mostly nonsense.

--Tim May


--Tim May
"The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able 
may have a gun." --Patrick Henry
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be 
properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton




From frissell at panix.com  Tue Jul  9 14:35:51 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:35:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <3C70F854-937F-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207091734560.10029-100000@panix2.panix.com>


On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Tim May wrote:

> Why do you think a person without a green card is exempt from IRS
> jurisdiction?

I assumed that he meant a US non-resident.  Obvi


>
> Unless one's stay is a short one (see below), income or other money
> earned while in the U.S. (and maybe earned outside the U.S. if the IRS
> can make a nexus case) is taxable. Illegal aliens are supposed to file
> tax returns...and they certainly don't have green cards!
>
> Here's what Uncle Sam says:
>
> "You will be considered a U.S. resident for tax purposes if you meet the
> substantial presence test for the calendar year. To meet this test, you
> must be physically present in the United States on at least:
>
> 1.	31 days during the current year, and
> 2.	183 days during the 3-year period that includes the current year
> and the 2 years immediately before that, counting:
> *	All the days you were present in the current year, and
> *	1/3 of the days you were present in the first year before the
> current year, and
> *	1/6 of the days you were present in the second year before the
> current year.
>
> --end IRS quote--
>
> There are some exemptions, for student visa persons and athletes
> competing in games, but basically the idea is that you owe tax on money
> earned in the U.S., regardless of citizenship, green card, or other
> status.
>
> > or
> > get a US citizenship since you're already in their jurisdiction anyway.
> >
>
> I think this is terrible advice. Becoming a U.S. citizen exposes a
> person to not only the _current year_ tax scheme but also the "for ten
> years after you leave the U.S." tax scheme. (Yes, any U.S. citizen who
> moves anywhere in the world must, technically, file U.S. tax returns for
> 10 years after leaving. And pay various kinds of taxes, though the
> amount may be different from what he would have paid had he remained in
> the U.S.)
>
> Also, a person having extensive offshore (outside the U.S.) assets may
> well find his assets are now taxable in the U.S. And for those with
> capital assets not taxed in their home countries (e.g., Germany, Japan),
> this may be quite a shock.
>
> A U.S. passport buys almost no protection. The U.S. will not defend its
> citizens, only its imperialist interests.
>
>
>
> --Tim May
> "That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  9 15:47:38 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:47:38 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | HavenCo Doing Well
Message-ID: <3D2B680A.E2C35BAD@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/09/2235215.shtml?tid=153
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From gabe at seul.org  Tue Jul  9 15:40:46 2002
From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:40:46 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <3C70F854-937F-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:02:53PM -0700
References: <20020709161919.J14787@seul.org>
  <3C70F854-937F-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020709184046.K14787@seul.org>


		On Tue, Jul 09, at 02:02PM, Tim May wrote:
| Why do you think a person without a green card is exempt from IRS 
| jurisdiction?

I should have been clearer. I was speaking for his specific case, but as
it was pointed out, it applies to people who don't come here to work.

| Unless one's stay is a short one (see below), income or other money 
| earned while in the U.S. (and maybe earned outside the U.S. if the IRS 
| can make a nexus case) is taxable. Illegal aliens are supposed to file 
| tax returns...and they certainly don't have green cards!

Nor do they have Social Security numbers, or worker's rights, but that's
another issue.

| There are some exemptions, for student visa persons and athletes 
| competing in games, but basically the idea is that you owe tax on money 
| earned in the U.S., regardless of citizenship, green card, or other 
| status.

The US is one of the few countries that I know of (or about) that do not
allow people ona  student permit to work.

| I think this is terrible advice. Becoming a U.S. citizen exposes a 
| person to not only the _current year_ tax scheme but also the "for ten 
| years after you leave the U.S." tax scheme. (Yes, any U.S. citizen who 
| moves anywhere in the world must, technically, file U.S. tax returns for 
| 10 years after leaving. And pay various kinds of taxes, though the 
| amount may be different from what he would have paid had he remained in 
| the U.S.)

Well, going back to his specific case. His options are slim. He already
holds a green card, that makes him a US citizen as far as tax laws are
concerned. (note that you cannot legally keep a green card and not meet
the tax residency requirements)
 
| Also, a person having extensive offshore (outside the U.S.) assets may 
| well find his assets are now taxable in the U.S. And for those with 
| capital assets not taxed in their home countries (e.g., Germany, Japan), 
| this may be quite a shock.

This applies wether he is a US citizen or not, green card holder or not,
Sealand citizen or not. Once the IRS sinkstheir claws into you, you're
screwed. Even if you give up your green card, you are still subject to
them for awhile. (A friend in Switzerland had a great deal of fun after
giving up his green card and still being contacted by the IRS)

| A U.S. passport buys almost no protection. The U.S. will not defend its 
| citizens, only its imperialist interests.

More so now than ever, I do have a tendency to agree with you. But, as
someone whose passport is not the pretty blue book that yours is, I
disagree. "Protection" is a relative term, show up in Russia and you're
kinda screwed one way or another, but show up in Genneva, Switzerland
and get stopped by the police, (or any other first world country) and
start speaking something other than English (or the local language) and
you will have a hard time. Specially in Europe, they have massive
profiling of foreigners and even if US Citizens may get a hard time just
fr being American, by far and alot, that blue passport will most
certainly get you out of a jam or keep you from being thrust into it.
Like it or not, the US passport is well respected throughout the world
("respect" also being very relative.) I have had a few occasions where I
would have been very screwed as a Brazillian, but got off well because
people thought I was American. It matters, even if the .gov won't come
to your rescue lance ablaze sitting on a white horse. 




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul  9 19:22:30 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:22:30 -0700
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
In-Reply-To: <c446ddf07339c472cf19f494e88f36b3@paranoici.org>
Message-ID: <E29036FE-93AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, July 9, 2002, at 06:30  PM, Anonymous wrote:

> On 9 Jul 2002 at 14:02, Tim May wrote:
>> Unless one's stay is a short one (see below), income or other
>> money earned while in the U.S. (and maybe earned outside the
>> U.S. if the IRS can make a nexus case) is taxable.
>
> The question really is:  Suppose one becomes a US citizen, and
> then resides outside the US.  Then is money on earned on assets
> outside the US taxable by US authorities.

Yes, but under expat tax rates. Cf. the IRS site, tax regs, etc. for 
details.

Something like the first $70K per year of income is not subject to taxes.

Companies routinely protect their overseas employees by tax-protecting 
their offshore earnings. (And the tax protection is protected, so the 
companies protect _that_, etc. Fortunately, simple formulas for infinite 
sequence limits are available.)

As this is not a tax forum, and I'm not going to do research for others, 
consult the Web. Google is your friend.


--Tim May
"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone
  with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later
  convinces himself." -- David Friedman




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul  9 19:33:52 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:33:52 -0700
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <20020710014012.GA5297@titan>
Message-ID: <7921EA66-93AD-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, July 9, 2002, at 06:40  PM, Greg Vassie wrote:

>> years after you leave the U.S." tax scheme. (Yes, any U.S. citizen who
>> moves anywhere in the world must, technically, file U.S. tax returns 
>> for
>> 10 years after leaving. And pay various kinds of taxes, though the
>> amount may be different from what he would have paid had he remained in
>> the U.S.)
>
> Where did you find the 10 year limit information?  AFAIK, US
> expatriates are subject to US taxes on their worldwide income as long
> as they remain US citizens, tax treaties and other exemptions
> notwithstanding.

You are incorrect. Renouncing citizenship does not relieve most people 
who need relief from the burden.

http://www.hcfa.gov/medicare/mip/full-kk.htm

"Health Insurance Portability Act of 1996"

Google is your friend.

--Tim May
"Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little 
bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now 
racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events 
following 9/11/2001




From dalbyh at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 10 05:01:23 2002
From: dalbyh at hotmail.com (dalbyh at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:01:23 -1600
Subject: Fw: Do You Use Your Printer Alot?               JHUSHMEV
Message-ID: <000068e21799$000000c5$000040c0@auntemmas.com>


What have you been up to?
I don't know about you, but I am sick and tired of going
down to the store to find out that your printer cartridges
cost more than the printer itself! I know how you feel
- I print over 500 pages a day, and it feels like there is
a vacuum sucking money out of my wallet! Now, this has got
to stop because I know it doesn't cost the printer companies
anywhere near what it costs me to do my office and school work!
Well, it finally has.  The SUPERINK solution.

You're probably thinking to yourself, "Gosh darn, not another
cheap knockoff printer cartridge!"  Like you, I was very 
skeptical at first, but my best friend & business associate
said it helped her save over $100 a month on printer supplies. 
So I tried it.  I mean, there was nothing to lose because they
offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee, up to a one-year warranty
on all of their products and FREE Shipping on ALL orders!
Let me tell you, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made.
Period.  Six months later, as I'm writing this message to you,
I've gone from spending $1000 dollars a month on printer supplies
to Now ONLY $475! and I haven't had to sacrifice the quality or
service that I received from the local office supply store. In fact,
the service is even BETTER!  I've had 1 defective cartridge since 
I started dealing with SUPERINK and they sent me a new replacement
within 3 days, no questions asked. Now, I can print all I want!

I was so happy with the results that I contacted their manufacturer
and got permission to be a reseller - at a BIG discount.  I want
to help other people to avoid getting jipped by the printer companies
like I did. Because a penny saved is a penny earned! 
I give you my personal pledge the SUPERINK soltuion will absolutely
WORK FOR YOU. If it doesn't, you can return your order anytime
for a full refund.    

If you are frustrated with dishing out money like it is water to the
printer companies, or tired of poor quality ink & toner cartridges,
then I recommend - the SUPERINK solution.

You're probably asking yourself, "Ok, so how do we save all this money
without losing quality and service?"

Modern technology has provided SUPERINK with unique, revolutionary
methods of wax molding that allow the ink & toner to 'settle', which
prevents any substantial damage that would occur during shipping and
handling. Nothing "magic" about it - just quality & savings, BIG SAVINGS!

Here is the bottom line ...

I can help you save 30%-70% per week/per month/per year or per lifetime 
by purchasing any of our ink & toner supplies. Just try it once, you'll 
keep coming back - there's nothing to lose, and much MONEY to be saved! 
100% Satisfaction Guaranteed. You will be able to print as much as you
want without wasting money or sacrificing quality - GUARANTEED.
That is my pledge to you.  

To order from the SUPERINK Solution on our secure server, just click
on the link below (or enter it into your browser):

http://www.superink.net/

If you have difficulty accessing the website above, please
try contacting us toll-free at 1-800-758-8084 - Thanks!

Sincerely - Bruce Tipton


******************************************************************
If you do not wish to receive any more emails from me, please 
send an email to "print2 at btamail.net.cn" requesting to be removed.
Thank You and Sorry for any inconvenience.
******************************************************************




From dainnl at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 10 05:01:24 2002
From: dainnl at hotmail.com (dainnl at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:01:24 -1600
Subject: Fw: Ready to Save Money?                    ONQCGTLY
Message-ID: <000068e21799$000000c5$000040c0@auntanns.com>


What have you been up to?
I don't know about you, but I am sick and tired of going
down to the store to find out that your printer cartridges
cost more than the printer itself! I know how you feel
- I print over 500 pages a day, and it feels like there is
a vacuum sucking money out of my wallet! Now, this has got
to stop because I know it doesn't cost the printer companies
anywhere near what it costs me to do my office and school work!
Well, it finally has.  The SUPERINK solution.

You're probably thinking to yourself, "Gosh darn, not another
cheap knockoff printer cartridge!"  Like you, I was very 
skeptical at first, but my best friend & business associate
said it helped her save over $100 a month on printer supplies. 
So I tried it.  I mean, there was nothing to lose because they
offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee, up to a one-year warranty
on all of their products and FREE Shipping on ALL orders!
Let me tell you, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made.
Period.  Six months later, as I'm writing this message to you,
I've gone from spending $1000 dollars a month on printer supplies
to Now ONLY $475! and I haven't had to sacrifice the quality or
service that I received from the local office supply store. In fact,
the service is even BETTER!  I've had 1 defective cartridge since 
I started dealing with SUPERINK and they sent me a new replacement
within 3 days, no questions asked. Now, I can print all I want!

I was so happy with the results that I contacted their manufacturer
and got permission to be a reseller - at a BIG discount.  I want
to help other people to avoid getting jipped by the printer companies
like I did. Because a penny saved is a penny earned! 
I give you my personal pledge the SUPERINK soltuion will absolutely
WORK FOR YOU. If it doesn't, you can return your order anytime
for a full refund.    

If you are frustrated with dishing out money like it is water to the
printer companies, or tired of poor quality ink & toner cartridges,
then I recommend - the SUPERINK solution.

You're probably asking yourself, "Ok, so how do we save all this money
without losing quality and service?"

Modern technology has provided SUPERINK with unique, revolutionary
methods of wax molding that allow the ink & toner to 'settle', which
prevents any substantial damage that would occur during shipping and
handling. Nothing "magic" about it - just quality & savings, BIG SAVINGS!

Here is the bottom line ...

I can help you save 30%-70% per week/per month/per year or per lifetime 
by purchasing any of our ink & toner supplies. Just try it once, you'll 
keep coming back - there's nothing to lose, and much MONEY to be saved! 
100% Satisfaction Guaranteed. You will be able to print as much as you
want without wasting money or sacrificing quality - GUARANTEED.
That is my pledge to you.  

To order from the SUPERINK Solution on our secure server, just click
on the link below (or enter it into your browser):

http://www.superink.net/

If you have difficulty accessing the website above, please
try contacting us toll-free at 1-800-758-8084 - Thanks!

Sincerely - Bruce Tipton


******************************************************************
If you do not wish to receive any more emails from me, please 
send an email to "print2 at btamail.net.cn" requesting to be removed.
Thank You and Sorry for any inconvenience.
******************************************************************




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Tue Jul  9 18:49:35 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:49:35 -0500
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207091408310.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.
  com>
References: <3D222E0E.F3C622C7@cdc.gov>
  <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207091408310.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <20020710014935.GE22736@cybershamanix.com>


On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 03:17:52PM -0400, Sunder wrote:
> 
> Sure, you can revive old hardware with Linux, but you'll find it runs KDE
> 3.0 or GNOME slower than windows 95 did on the same hardware.  So unless
> you're willing to also go to older software (or at least less demanding
> software) you've still got a useless machine.

   What? Your brand of crack must be particularly poor these days. A 200mhz
cyrix cpu runs linux w/gnome fast enough for most anything. Slower than
w95??? Come again? I've run 1ghz boxes and they really don't surf the net much
faster, so what's your point?

> 
> OTOH, if it does work well enough, and you don't care for swapping memos
> in Micro$loth Word V283.23 with cow-orkers or don't care about watching
> the latest 3d movie on XVD disks, then by all means, if you don't mind the
> huge power consumption, use that old iron.

  power consumption?? my 200mhz box? 

-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From contact-fa070902_1-100258129 at box1.d2a7b3.net  Tue Jul  9 19:28:08 2002
From: contact-fa070902_1-100258129 at box1.d2a7b3.net (Investor Insights)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:28:08 -0500
Subject: NEW! NEW! (NASDAQ:FAUX)-WATCH THIS STOCK TRADE
Message-ID: <200207100234.VAA31811@einstein.ssz.com>

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From marketing at enelec.com.ar  Tue Jul  9 17:37:55 2002
From: marketing at enelec.com.ar (Enelec)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:37:55 -0300
Subject: Internet Video  and Conectivity Solutions
Message-ID: <B0005958539@mail5.expresstech.net>

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From greg at cypher.net  Tue Jul  9 18:40:12 2002
From: greg at cypher.net (Greg Vassie)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:12 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <3C70F854-937F-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <20020709161919.J14787@seul.org>
  <3C70F854-937F-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020710014012.GA5297@titan>


> years after you leave the U.S." tax scheme. (Yes, any U.S. citizen who 
> moves anywhere in the world must, technically, file U.S. tax returns for 
> 10 years after leaving. And pay various kinds of taxes, though the 
> amount may be different from what he would have paid had he remained in 
> the U.S.)

Where did you find the 10 year limit information?  AFAIK, US
expatriates are subject to US taxes on their worldwide income as long
as they remain US citizens, tax treaties and other exemptions
notwithstanding.

-- 
greg at cypher.net // RSA Key: 0x1606F91D // DSS Key: 0x83BB5BE4

"When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When
it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered."
-- Dorothy Thompson




From mgpub10 at cgocable.ca  Tue Jul  9 18:40:12 2002
From: mgpub10 at cgocable.ca (MG Publishing)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:12 -0400
Subject: Available; Subsidies, Grants, Loans, Financing and General help.
Message-ID: <200207100140.g6A1eD99000706@ak47.algebra.com>



MG PUBLISHING
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ST-ANDREWS WEST
ONTARIO, KOC 2A0


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From mgpub10 at cgocable.ca  Tue Jul  9 18:40:17 2002
From: mgpub10 at cgocable.ca (MG Publishing)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:40:17 -0400
Subject: Available; Subsidies, Grants, Loans, Financing and General help.
Message-ID: <200207100145.UAA29904@einstein.ssz.com>



MG PUBLISHING
4865 HWY 138,R.R 1
ST-ANDREWS WEST
ONTARIO, KOC 2A0


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From wi5racd0l518 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 10 09:48:32 2002
From: wi5racd0l518 at hotmail.com (Christina)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:48:32 -1900
Subject: Double Coverage Amount, Same Payment...                FCI
Message-ID: <000078af0f6c$000058dc$00001c94@mx09.hotmail.com>

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From gbroiles at parrhesia.com  Tue Jul  9 22:00:15 2002
From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:00:15 -0700
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <0eb554d6fbbcec2fc3139043ba7234dc@freedom.gmsociety.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020709215253.03b70800@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 11:52 AM 7/9/2002 -0400, An Metet wrote:
>What are the tax implications of a US resident green card holder, with 
>substantial assets both in his original nation and in the US, of becoming 
>a US citizen?

Take a look at <http://www.thetaxguy.com/faq.htm>. Non-US citizens may be 
classified as residents, nonresidents, or as dual status aliens; they also 
frequently can choose whether they would prefer to file as residents or 
nonresidents; this is an area where professional assistance is very helpful.

Subsequent replies to this question have, in an unproductive fashion, 
confused US citizens living outside the US and former citizens living 
outside the US; the 10-year rule applies to people who have given up their 
US citizenship. People who remain citizens while living elsewhere are 
subject to US tax on their worldwide income (but, some income is excluded, 
and some income which is taxed by other jurisdictions won't be taxed again 
by the US) for as long as they're alive.


--
Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961




From offenders at mailhost.com  Tue Jul  9 22:25:29 2002
From: offenders at mailhost.com (offenders)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:25:29 -0700
Subject: sorry about last nite... - barbarously
Message-ID: <200207100557.g6A5ox5S003938@mailhost.com>




resolver




From gabe at seul.org  Tue Jul  9 19:26:04 2002
From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:26:04 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
In-Reply-To: <c446ddf07339c472cf19f494e88f36b3@paranoici.org>; from
  nobody@paranoici.org on Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 03:30:28AM +0200
References: <c446ddf07339c472cf19f494e88f36b3@paranoici.org>
Message-ID: <20020709222604.L14787@seul.org>


		On Wed, Jul 10, at 03:30AM, Anonymous wrote:
| The question really is:  Suppose one becomes a US citizen, and
| then resides outside the US.  Then is money on earned on assets
| outside the US taxable by US authorities.

Yes it is. If you are a US citizen your income can be taxed anywhere in
the world. However, there is a trick here, there is a certain ammount (I
believe it to be around $80k) up to which you're exempt from taxation.

| If, on the other hand, after being a resident for a while, and
| paying taxes on money earned while in the US, one leaves the US
| and resides somewhere else, retaining some US assets, is the money
| earned on non US assets taxable?  Is income of a non US resident,
| on non US assets, earning non US income taxable?  Would it be
| taxable if that person had been so careless as to become a US
| citizen during his stay in the US?

As far as I know, all money made in the US (investments or otherwise)
are taxable as US income. Where the "owner" of the money resides is
irrelevant.

| So do I get eligible for imperial taxes anywhere in the world
| merely by staying in the US a while, having a green card and
| paying US taxes, or do I only get eligible for imperial taxes
| anywhere in the world by taking US citizenship?

This question has multiple parts. First off, you can't have a green card
and not be a US resident. The requirements for both go hand in hand, if
you stay out of the US long enough to not be taxed, you're also out of
the US long enough to lose your green card. Likewise, if you get US
citizenship, you're subject to being taxed anywhere in the world. (see
the paragraph above)




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul  9 20:26:44 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:26:44 -0500
Subject: kuro5hin.org || You are being watched: A call for randomness
Message-ID: <3D2BA974.9C73A3A4@ssz.com>


http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2002/7/7/133419/5827
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From gabe at seul.org  Tue Jul  9 19:27:22 2002
From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:27:22 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
In-Reply-To: <08ce1d26456ba63ef9b10af856d47695@dizum.com>; from
  nobody@dizum.com on Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 03:20:08AM +0200
References: <08ce1d26456ba63ef9b10af856d47695@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20020709222722.M14787@seul.org>


		On Wed, Jul 10, at 03:20AM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
| Are you saying that if someone is legally resident in the US for a
| while, the US IRS will attempt to get his assets all over the
| world forever?  I find this hard to believe.

For a specific time period, this is absolutely true. Hard to believe,
sure, real anyway? Yes. But there is an income cap somewhere, it may
vary, but I suspect it to be like the $80k you get tax exempt.




From gabe at seul.org  Tue Jul  9 19:32:55 2002
From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:32:55 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <8B896BB0-9399-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 05:11:13PM -0700
References: <20020709184046.K14787@seul.org>
  <8B896BB0-9399-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020709223255.N14787@seul.org>


		On Tue, Jul 09, at 05:11PM, Tim May wrote:
| Mexico does not allow _any_ noncitizen to work!

Two point. I did not know that about Mexico (I did say it was made about
the countries I knew about.) Switzerland and Brasil both allow student
visa holders to work, albeit with restrictions. Likewise for other EU
nations.

| Except for folks of either a) substantial resources, b) connected with a 
| U.S. employer. But try visiting a Mexican city and applying for a job at 
| a restaurant, bookstore, whatever. This was a plot element in "The 
| Treasure of the Sierra Madre," more than 50 years ago, and it remains 
| true today. It is also difficult for non-citizens to work in many 
| European nations.

I would imagine that people with or without a work permit would be able
to find work at some mexican restaurants. That is the case the world
over, I don't see why Mexico would be different here.

| Meanwhile, like I said, see how long you live as an illegal alien in 
| Mexico or Nicaragua, and see if they will issue a work permit.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but then again, not too many countries
have an economy that has as large a population of illegal workers as
ours.
 
| The U.S. is fucked up, to be sure, but talking about other countries 
| making it easier for foreigners to work is mostly nonsense.

It may well be nonsense. But my opinions are expressed as based on my
personal experience in other countries and this one.




From greg at cypher.net  Tue Jul  9 20:38:01 2002
From: greg at cypher.net (Greg Vassie)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:38:01 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <7921EA66-93AD-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <20020710014012.GA5297@titan>
  <7921EA66-93AD-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020710033801.GB5297@titan>


> >>years after you leave the U.S." tax scheme. (Yes, any U.S. citizen who
> >>moves anywhere in the world must, technically, file U.S. tax returns 
> >>for
> >>10 years after leaving. And pay various kinds of taxes, though the
> >>amount may be different from what he would have paid had he remained in
> >>the U.S.)
> >
> >Where did you find the 10 year limit information?  AFAIK, US
> >expatriates are subject to US taxes on their worldwide income as long
> >as they remain US citizens, tax treaties and other exemptions
> >notwithstanding.
> 
> You are incorrect. Renouncing citizenship does not relieve most people 
> who need relief from the burden.

I think we're talking about two different things here.  What I meant
to say is every piece of information I've been able to find states
that US citizens residing outside the US have to file tax returns and
are subject to US tax laws for the rest of their lives.  Whereas you
stated that US citizens residing outside the US only have to file tax
returns for 10 years after leaving the US, and I haven't seen that
anywhere, despite extensive research on the issue since I'm a US
citizen residing outside the US.

My choice of the word 'expatriate' in my previous post was incorrect
and for that I apologize.


-- 
greg at cypher.net // RSA Key: 0x1606F91D // DSS Key: 0x83BB5BE4

"When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When
it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered."
-- Dorothy Thompson




From gabe at seul.org  Tue Jul  9 21:06:34 2002
From: gabe at seul.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:06:34 -0400
Subject: cypherpunks@lne.com
In-Reply-To: <bf7b7556d325a254bd7709fe057580af@arancio.net>; from
  nobody@arancio.net on Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 02:12:01AM -0000
References: <bf7b7556d325a254bd7709fe057580af@arancio.net>
Message-ID: <20020710000634.O14787@seul.org>


		On Wed, Jul 10, at 02:12AM, anonimo arancio wrote:
| I am considering becoming a US citizen immediately before I leave.  My concern is that if I become a US citizen, the IRS might want to tax me wherever I go.

We're starting to beat on dead horse. Yes, the IRS will tax you anywhere
you go, or at least want to. At least past the first $70-80k/year you
make outside the US. 




From nobody at arancio.net  Tue Jul  9 19:12:01 2002
From: nobody at arancio.net (anonimo arancio)
Date: 10 Jul 2002 02:12:01 -0000
Subject: cypherpunks@lne.com
Message-ID: <bf7b7556d325a254bd7709fe057580af@arancio.net>


On reflection, I did not make my situation clear.

I made a fair bit of money in my home country, despite a corrupt kleptocratic government that that does its best to prevent people from earning an honest living.  I came to the US, became a green card holder and made a fair bit more money, and now would like to return to my home, where the cost of living is way lower, the food is much better, the skies are bluer, the ocean is warmer, the girls are prettier, and there is now no way whatever to earn an honest living.  Fortunately I can afford to retire young.

I am considering becoming a US citizen immediately before I leave.  My concern is that if I become a US citizen, the IRS might want to tax me wherever I go.




From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Jul  9 18:20:08 2002
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:20:08 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
Message-ID: <08ce1d26456ba63ef9b10af856d47695@dizum.com>


On Tue, Jul 09, at 02:02PM, Tim May wrote:
> > Also, a person having extensive offshore (outside the U.S.)
> > assets may well find his assets are now taxable in the U.S.
> > And for those with capital assets not taxed in their home
> > countries (e.g., Germany, Japan), this may be quite a shock.

On 9 Jul 2002 at 18:40, Gabriel Rocha wrote:
> This applies wether he is a US citizen or not, green card holder
> or not, Sealand citizen or not. Once the IRS sinkstheir claws
> into you, you're screwed.

Are you saying that if someone is legally resident in the US for a
while, the US IRS will attempt to get his assets all over the
world forever?  I find this hard to believe.




From nobody at paranoici.org  Tue Jul  9 18:30:28 2002
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:30:28 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
Message-ID: <c446ddf07339c472cf19f494e88f36b3@paranoici.org>


On 9 Jul 2002 at 14:02, Tim May wrote:
> Unless one's stay is a short one (see below), income or other
> money earned while in the U.S. (and maybe earned outside the
> U.S. if the IRS can make a nexus case) is taxable.

The question really is:  Suppose one becomes a US citizen, and
then resides outside the US.  Then is money on earned on assets
outside the US taxable by US authorities.

If, on the other hand, after being a resident for a while, and
paying taxes on money earned while in the US, one leaves the US
and resides somewhere else, retaining some US assets, is the money
earned on non US assets taxable?  Is income of a non US resident,
on non US assets, earning non US income taxable?  Would it be
taxable if that person had been so careless as to become a US
citizen during his stay in the US?

> Becoming a U.S. citizen exposes a person to not only the
> _current year_ tax scheme but also the "for ten years after you
> leave the U.S." tax scheme. (Yes, any U.S. citizen who moves
> anywhere in the world must, technically, file U.S. tax returns
> for 10 years after leaving. And pay various kinds of taxes,
> though the amount may be different from what he would have paid
> had he remained in the U.S.)

So do I get eligible for imperial taxes anywhere in the world
merely by staying in the US a while, having a green card and
paying US taxes, or do I only get eligible for imperial taxes
anywhere in the world by taking US citizenship?




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From eresrch at eskimo.com  Wed Jul 10 07:02:01 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:02:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: tcpa paper (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207100658170.13269-100000@eskimo.com>


The academics think that TCPA technology is already solved.  I haven't
read the whole paper, but y'all might find it interesting.

----------------------Begin Forward -----------------------
From: Sean Smith <sws at cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:18:22 -0400


You know, as long as we're discussing this pile of issues of
how do you bind keypairs to software entities, and what that means,
etc., the ESORICS paper I mentioned (a revised version of an older
tech report) has a lot of relevance.   "How, before TCPA,
I solved the problem of meaningfully binding keys to software entities
in a tricky hardware environment."

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sws/papers/esorics02.pdf

This work may have more relevance to open
platforms than England et al admit...

--Sean



-- 
Sean W. Smith, Ph.D.                         sws at cs.dartmouth.edu
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sws/       (has ssl link to pgp key)
Department of Computer Science, Dartmouth College, Hanover NH USA



---------------------------------------------------------------pkilabs-+
For list utilities, archives, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc. please visit the
ListProc web interface at

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---------------------End Forward-----------------------------------

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Tue Jul  9 17:29:22 2002
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:29:22 +0800
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
References: <0eb554d6fbbcec2fc3139043ba7234dc@freedom.gmsociety.org>
Message-ID: <3D2B7FE2.2F94DCA4@mozcom.com>


Basically, none. A US resident is taxed just like a citizen. In fact,
even if you are not a green card holder, but have a "substantial
presence" in the US, you are still taxed like a citizen.

Marc de Piolenc

An Metet wrote:
> 
> What are the tax implications of a US resident green card holder, with substantial assets both in his original nation and in the US, of becoming a US citizen?

-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin




From adam at homeport.org  Wed Jul 10 06:19:46 2002
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:19:46 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
In-Reply-To: <E29036FE-93AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 07:22:30PM -0700
References: <c446ddf07339c472cf19f494e88f36b3@paranoici.org>
  <E29036FE-93AB-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020710091946.A39662@lightship.internal.homeport.org>


On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 07:22:30PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
| On Tuesday, July 9, 2002, at 06:30  PM, Anonymous wrote:
| 
| > On 9 Jul 2002 at 14:02, Tim May wrote:
| >> Unless one's stay is a short one (see below), income or other
| >> money earned while in the U.S. (and maybe earned outside the
| >> U.S. if the IRS can make a nexus case) is taxable.
| >
| > The question really is:  Suppose one becomes a US citizen, and
| > then resides outside the US.  Then is money on earned on assets
| > outside the US taxable by US authorities.
| 
| Yes, but under expat tax rates. Cf. the IRS site, tax regs, etc. for 
| details.

It seems that it may be similar to that for Green Card holders as
well:

http://www.techvisas.com/taxation.htm

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From dog3 at eruditium.org  Wed Jul 10 06:20:55 2002
From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:20:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Why we must stay silent no longer
In-Reply-To: <86d7124638638c156af44e3bb1fb9c19@remailer.xganon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207100916280.14238-100000@ns.eruditium.org>


The overall message isn't all that bad, 
but the body of the document is so replete
with errors, misrepresentations and 
misconveyance as to be unreadable.

I almost gave up on it at the line, 
"More than 75 per cent of Americans 
would boycott stores selling goods 
produced in sweatshops."

This isn't even remotely based in reality.
Who ever came up with this number, assuming
it was sincere, is seriously deluded.

There are plenty of other inaccuracies that
would have better been left unstated. 

On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Anonymous wrote:

> The death of democracy is at hand.
> 
> http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/hertz.htm




From tlcollin at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul  9 18:40:47 2002
From: tlcollin at bellsouth.net (tlcollin)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:40:47 +0800
Subject: Cellpadding
Message-ID: <200207100940156.SM01120@Yewmxhyox>

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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Jul 10 06:55:00 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:55:00 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD00@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Greg Broiles[SMTP:gbroiles at parrhesia.com]
> 
> 
> At 11:52 AM 7/9/2002 -0400, An Metet wrote:
> >What are the tax implications of a US resident green card holder, with 
> >substantial assets both in his original nation and in the US, of becoming
> 
> >a US citizen?
> 
> Take a look at <http://www.thetaxguy.com/faq.htm>. Non-US citizens may be 
> classified as residents, nonresidents, or as dual status aliens; they also
> 
> frequently can choose whether they would prefer to file as residents or 
> nonresidents; this is an area where professional assistance is very
> helpful.
> 
> Subsequent replies to this question have, in an unproductive fashion, 
> confused US citizens living outside the US and former citizens living 
> outside the US; the 10-year rule applies to people who have given up their
> 
> US citizenship. People who remain citizens while living elsewhere are 
> subject to US tax on their worldwide income (but, some income is excluded,
> 
> and some income which is taxed by other jurisdictions won't be taxed again
> 
> by the US) for as long as they're alive.
> 
[I'm a US citizen who lived for many years abroad, so I have some awareness
of the issue].

Greg's pretty well got it spot on, but I'd like to refine things a bit. If a
US
citizen lives abroad, the USG will try to extract taxes from both his US
*and* foreign income, beyond certain minimums (the only other countries
which do this are the Phillipines and Egypt, both of which have large
numbers of citizens working in other countries (so they have an excuse, 
the US doesn't)). 

If you emigrate and give up your US citizenship, any assets you take
with you above a certain limit (?? $400k ??) are subject to a sort of 
'exit tax'. This is an idea the US adopted from the Soviet Union,
where it was used to harrass Jewish emigrants. What is more, 
the IRS will still claim to be able to tax your non-US income for 
10 years after you give up your citizenship (with caps, I think 
the same as an expat).

This law was put in place not too long ago, after there was a brief
storm in a teacup over certain multimillionaires giving up their
citizenships for tax purposes. In a populist stunt, the USG put in place
laws to punish these emigrants. In doing so they set the asset cap
so low that many people leaving for perfectly legitimate reasons were 
caught up in it. The political rhetoric around the issue was very 
nasty - it was clear that the congresscritters could not conceive 
that any person could have a legitimate, above-board reason to 
want to give up US citizenship.

Of course, at the moment the USG only occasionally chooses to flout
the sovereignty of foreign nations on issues of non-US citizens, and
it is still pretty rare for the USG to kidnap people abroad. Therefore, 
if you've given up your US citizenship, and are abroad, you have the
option of telling the IRS to pound sand before the 10 year limit is up.
If you do this, they will try to seize any US assets you may have,
and will arrest you for tax evasion if you ever set foot on US soil.

As Tim would say, check the archives. About 3 years ago, one or
two list members said they were giving up their US citizenship, 
and taking up Mozambiquian (sp?) citizenship, to enable them to
write and export cryptographic software without being subject to
US control. There was an extensive discussion of the topic at that
time.

So, to the subject of the original question: I don't think taking up
US citizenship, then retiring abroad, makes a hell of a lot of
sense from a tax point of view, unless the Social Security payments
are important, the total assets taken out are low, and the expected
non-US income falls below the minimum the US allows expats 
tax-free. There are a lot of other effects of US citzenship vs 
US citizenship, but those are my non-lawyer speculations on the
tax implications.

Peter Trei






From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Jul 10 07:04:32 2002
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:04:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CP meet at H2K2?
Message-ID: <mailman.627.1575948382.62801.testlist@lists.cpunks.org>



The buzz on the cypherpunks-NYC list is that the most convenient bar is
the "blarney rock", just near the hotel pennsylvania. How about say we'll
meet there at midnight on Saturday?

-David

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Greg Newby wrote:

> H2K2, 2600's conference, is at Hotel Penn in New York
> July 12-14.  http://www.h2k2.net
>
> CP contributors who are scheduled include
> John Young and yours truly.  Maybe others I
> didn't recognize or see yet.  I heard of a few other
> tentatives.
>
> The full conference schedule should be online within
> the next couple of days.  I'm thinking of a CP
> meet Saturday night July 12.  Anyone else gonna be there?
>   -- Greg
>
>

----- End forwarded message -----




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Jul 10 10:11:58 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:11:58 -0700
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
In-Reply-To: <20020710014935.GE22736@cybershamanix.com>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207091408310.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.
  com> <3D222E0E.F3C622C7@cdc.gov>
  <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207091408310.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020710100458.04b66c28@idiom.com>


At 08:49 PM 07/09/2002 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 03:17:52PM -0400, Sunder wrote:
> > Sure, you can revive old hardware with Linux, but you'll find it runs KDE
> > 3.0 or GNOME slower than windows 95 did on the same hardware.  So unless
> > you're willing to also go to older software (or at least less demanding
> > software) you've still got a useless machine.
>
>    What? Your brand of crack must be particularly poor these days. A 200mhz
>cyrix cpu runs linux w/gnome fast enough for most anything. Slower than
>w95??? Come again? I've run 1ghz boxes and they really don't surf the net much
>faster, so what's your point?

The big issue tends to be memory rather than CPU speed -
while Linux isn't quite the bloatware that Windows is,
you *really* don't want to run GNOME with the default window manager
on a P66 with 16MB RAM.  Trust me, you don't :-)
Works just fine with TWM or other lightweight window managers.
You also wouldn't want to run current IE / Netscape 6 on it,
though Netscape 4.7x worked fast enough.

If your box can support current PC100 / PC133 SIMMs, you can probably
upgrade it with enough memory to run the newer applications ok,
but the generation of machines with Fast Page Mode 72-pin memory
tends to be limited to 32MB or sometimes less, and 386s tend to be 8MB.




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Jul 10 07:30:13 2002
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:30:13 -0400 (edt)
Subject: OT: old hardware - was Re: "to outlaw general purpose
  computers"
In-Reply-To: <20020710014935.GE22736@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207101013530.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>


On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 03:17:52PM -0400, Sunder wrote:
> > 
> > Sure, you can revive old hardware with Linux, but you'll find it runs KDE
> > 3.0 or GNOME slower than windows 95 did on the same hardware.  So unless
> > you're willing to also go to older software (or at least less demanding
> > software) you've still got a useless machine.
> 
>    What? Your brand of crack must be particularly poor these days. A 200mhz
> cyrix cpu runs linux w/gnome fast enough for most anything. Slower than
> w95??? Come again? I've run 1ghz boxes and they really don't surf the net much
> faster, so what's your point?

You missed the entire forrest of course by concentrating on a single pine
needle from a single branch of a single pine tree.


Fine, have it your way:

Yeah? Which gnome? 1.0?  I wasn't concerned much about internet throughput
as much as display rendering of shit like rendering menus and such.  

Oh, what, did you expect me to use Lynx maybe?

Let's also not forget that the older machines have limits on memory, which
also affect performance.  I don't know about your hardware, but most of my
old 100-200Mhz machines don't have motherboards that can handle much ram.  
I'd be lucky to get 128mb in there -- if I were to bother hunting down ram
for them and paying a lot more per megabyte for it than for say a pair of
512M dimms for the newer boxes.  And no, I'm not going to be spending $200
on an accelerated 3d video card with 8mb for a piece of shit machine from
10 years ago either.  So yes, gnome is slow on old hardware.

> > OTOH, if it does work well enough, and you don't care for swapping memos
> > in Micro$loth Word V283.23 with cow-orkers or don't care about watching
> > the latest 3d movie on XVD disks, then by all means, if you don't mind the
> > huge power consumption, use that old iron.
> 
>   power consumption?? my 200mhz box? 

Power consumption per MIPS.  Do the math.  That old 200Mhz box is costing
you as much more in MIPS/Watts than your 1GHz box.  Unless of course
you're comparing notebooks with fully loaded towers. :)  My old piece of
shit Pentium 1 box which has a 250Watt power supply.  Same as my newer
machines.  Which is more expensive to run, hmm?  Now lets say that you
take every machine you've ever had and run them all at the same time.

How much aggregate MIPS will you get out of them versus how many
Watts/hour would you be using?   Will those be servers of some sort?  Oh,
ok, that means you'll need more UPS's.  What?  You don't have
UPS's?  Silly man! I've got UPS's on practically everything. Yes, yes,
including the Tivo and my alarm clock.  Two 3+ hour blackouts was more
than enough to convince me.  Hell, I was pricing generators right after
that, but thought a few large UPS's would do the trick.


Certainly that old Pentium tower makes a fine firewall, DNS, mail, or
printer server, or low bandwith web server, but for how much longer?  At
what point does it become useless?  Certainly were I to bother encrypting
everything on it, disk, swap, and network connectivity, it would slow down
to Commodore 64 levels of usability.  And how many users do you have going
through it?  Just yourself perhaps?

Ever notice how much slower it is to ssh to that old 100Mhz PC of yours
than to the 1Ghz one?  the initial connection takes far longer to
complete?  Maybe you haven't, I have.

Perhaps you need more caffeine in your blood stream.  Seems to me your IQ
is faling.




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Jul 10 08:00:28 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:00:28 -0400
Subject: The long, rubber-gloved arm of Uncle Ern^h^h^hSam
In-Reply-To: <20020710000634.O14787@seul.org>
References: <bf7b7556d325a254bd7709fe057580af@arancio.net>
  <20020710000634.O14787@seul.org>
Message-ID: <p05111a1db951ee96a9d9@[66.149.49.6]>

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From frissell at panix.com  Wed Jul 10 08:07:09 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:07:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Highjacker's Banking Problems
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207101105510.14432-100000@panix3.panix.com>


Sept. 11 Hijackers Said to Fake Data on Bank Accounts

Sayeth the New York Times:

      July 10, 2002
      Sept. 11 Hijackers Said to Fake Data on Bank Accounts
      By JAMES RISEN

      WASHINGTON, July 9  The Sept. 11 hijackers were able to open
      35 American bank accounts without having legitimate Social
      Security numbers and opened some of the accounts with
      fabricated Social Security numbers that were never checked or
      questioned by bank officials, a senior F.B.I. official said
      today.
      ...
      With no scrutiny from the financial institutions or
      government regulators, the hijackers were able to move
      hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Middle East into
      the United States through a maze of bank accounts beginning
      more than a year before their attacks.

      A spokesman for SunTrust, which is based in Atlanta, said the
      bank had been cooperating with the F.B.I.'s investigation.
      The spokesman said it was possible for foreigners without
      Social Security numbers to open bank accounts in this
      country, but he could not provide details of what forms of
      identification the hijackers used to open the SunTrust
      accounts.
      ...
      One of the first signs of a large infusion of cash coming
      into the United States for use by the hijackers appears in
      bank records dating from 2000, when $100,000 was deposited in
      bank accounts controlled by some of the leading hijackers,
      including Mr. Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, Mr. Lormel said.
      ...



Note that it is as legal as church on a Sunday for non-residents to open
financial accounts in the US or Switzerland or the UK etc. Many US banks
don't accommodate foreigners but that is because of sloth not law.
Certainly online brokers (who are quasi banks) do market to foreigners.

One reason that SS numbers were not verified is that the SSA has
traditionally refused to verify for privacy reasons and the alternative
method involves doing a credit check which takes time and money. And in
the case of non-interest-paying current accounts there are no tax issues.

Banks located in the "red states" are not as bureaucratic as banks in the
"blue states" and have been much slower to adopt the controls popular on
the coasts. This is changing of course but there are still many social
differences which make account transactions easier in the free states.

But let's assume for a moment that Homeland Security shuts the banks down
and requires verified DNA samples and licenses from 10 separate agencies
to open a financial account in the US. So the middle class Egyptians and
Saudis with no criminal records who attacked us are faced with the
ultimate challenge of getting the $500K they needed into the US.

By dint of heroic effort, the future highjackers manage to open bank
accounts in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. They receive ATM, debit, or credit
cards to draw on those accounts. Perhaps they encourage their French or
British co-conspirators to open accounts in those countries. They arrive
in the US and withdraw the $500 to $1000 per day maximum (per account)
from ATM machines. Assume they have only managed to open 5 accounts.
That's $2500 to $5000/day. Or 100 to 200 days to withdraw $500K. Not much
of a trick particularly since they are not limited to 5 accounts and can
get cash advances at any bank with any credit cards they have.

But then Homeland Security outlaws ATMs and credit cards (or at least the
international connections of same). This is tantamount to imposing
exchange controls which the US has never done. So the attackers have to
fall back on Krugerrands. At $333 a pop, they have to get 1500 KRs into
the country. Since bullion coins are not considered currency, they aren't
covered by financial instrument import reporting laws. But you can just
mail them one or two at a time. Most of them will get through. No big
deal.

The truth is that it's a bit tricky to block the movement of small
amounts of money like this.

--
Posted by Duncan Frissell to The Technoptimist at 7/10/2002 10:30:45 AM

Powered by Blogger Pro




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Jul 10 09:12:36 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:12:36 -0500
Subject: OT: old hardware - was Re: "to outlaw general purpose
  computers"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207101013530.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.
  com>
References: <20020710014935.GE22736@cybershamanix.com>
  <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207101013530.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <20020710161236.GA23507@cybershamanix.com>


On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:30:13AM -0400, Sunder wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 03:17:52PM -0400, Sunder wrote:
> > > 
> > > Sure, you can revive old hardware with Linux, but you'll find it runs KDE
> > > 3.0 or GNOME slower than windows 95 did on the same hardware.  So unless
> > > you're willing to also go to older software (or at least less demanding
> > > software) you've still got a useless machine.
> > 
> >    What? Your brand of crack must be particularly poor these days. A 200mhz
> > cyrix cpu runs linux w/gnome fast enough for most anything. Slower than
> > w95??? Come again? I've run 1ghz boxes and they really don't surf the net much
> > faster, so what's your point?
> 
> You missed the entire forrest of course by concentrating on a single pine
> needle from a single branch of a single pine tree.

   No, the point is that a lot of fairly old machines won't be obsolete for a
long time, at least running a decent OS. 

> 
> 
> Fine, have it your way:
> 
> Yeah? Which gnome? 1.0?  I wasn't concerned much about internet throughput
> as much as display rendering of shit like rendering menus and such.  
>

     Nope, I run gnome 4.0, and, I should say, I run it with 4 workspaces --
first one always has 4 gnometerminal sessions going, second has the latest
mozilla with at least 6 windows open, often acrobat reader as well, third one
has three gnometerminals and opera, which usually has at least a dozen sessions
open, and the fourth workspace usually has openoffice running. 
    I don't notice anything particularly slow. Compared to a 700mhz AMD at work
and a 1ghz I've played with, it's not bad. Oh, and also it's always running
apache, postfix, and usually mysql. 
    It would be nice to compile kernels faster. But even compiling them with all
the above running isn't that bad, and doesn't seem to seriously slow down the
rest.



> Oh, what, did you expect me to use Lynx maybe?


   No, mozilla and opera.

> 
> Let's also not forget that the older machines have limits on memory, which
> also affect performance.  I don't know about your hardware, but most of my
> old 100-200Mhz machines don't have motherboards that can handle much ram.  
> I'd be lucky to get 128mb in there -- if I were to bother hunting down ram
> for them and paying a lot more per megabyte for it than for say a pair of
> 512M dimms for the newer boxes.  And no, I'm not going to be spending $200
> on an accelerated 3d video card with 8mb for a piece of shit machine from
> 10 years ago either.  So yes, gnome is slow on old hardware.

   Well, this box (the tower case itself is about 10 years old) recently got
upgraded from a 200mhz to a 266 (actually it a 350 but the mb won't go that
fast, so one of these days I'll upgrade the mb, but I'm in no hurry), and it has
256 megs of RAM. DIMMS, of course. It also has a 16meg Matrox video card which
helps. 
    I suppose if you're a gamer or doing a lot of big graphics, you'd need more
power, but for what I'm doing. Heck, I can recall running a web server for a
fairly big library and a mail server for over 400 accounts on little 200mhz
boxes. Worked fine -- still would. 
    OTOH, if it looks like DRM is going to get mandated, I'll probably go out
and buy a dual AMD mb and a couple of 2ghz cpus, just so I'll be set for the
next decade.


-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From gbnewby at ruby.ils.unc.edu  Wed Jul 10 08:37:06 2002
From: gbnewby at ruby.ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:37:06 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: CP meet at H2K2?]
Message-ID: <20020710153706.GD16409@ils.unc.edu>


Sounds like a plan....someone try to remember to put a sign
up on-site for this.  An actual address for the 
bar would be nice - is this the one on 33rd?

----- Forwarded message from dmolnar <dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu> -----


From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 10 09:58:12 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:58:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Quantum Computing Puts Encrypted Messages at Risk (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020710115752.27892E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://sci.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18490.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 10 09:58:31 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:58:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New Scientist - Digital copyright protection goes mobile (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020710115815.27892F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992530


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 10 09:59:42 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:59:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Software.Linux.Com - pdfcrypt (Linux) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020710115914.27892G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://software.linux.com/articles/view/1514/


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 10 10:01:18 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:01:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Microsoft Claims IP Rights on Portions of OpenGL (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020710120046.27892H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/10/007213.shtml?tid=109


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 10 10:02:17 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:02:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Cable Companies Saying No to WiFi Sharing (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020710120149.27892J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/10/1257234.shtml?tid=98


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From pat_epue at rediffmail.com  Wed Jul 10 04:27:35 2002
From: pat_epue at rediffmail.com (MISS  PATIENCE  EPUE)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:27:35 +0100
Subject: PLEASE LISTEN TO MY CRYING
Message-ID: <200207101127.g6ABR899015033@ak47.algebra.com>


Dear,

I am miss Patience  Epue,

Final year student of Ambrose Alli university, Nigeria.
I have urgent and very confidential business
and an assistance for you.

There was a foreigner called Engr.  Barry  Kelly,

a Foreign Oil consultant/contractor
with the Nigerian
National Petroleum Corporation, Mr.Barry Kelly, I met him 1997 and we
develope a marriage affairs.
He proposed to marry me but my parents were never in
support of my affairs with him but i insisted

On the 11th march, 2002 engr. Barry went and withdrawn his
fixed deposit account with the Equity trust bank plc lagos
and lodged them with a security company, for safe transfer
 of the fund to Ghana, accra for the purpose
of finacing his private oil refinary that he was working on at Accra.

While this fund was still with the security company,
My surposed husband Engr. Barry,
died on moto accident  on the 24th of april 2002.
He died without a WILL, and all attempts to trace his next of kin or any
relation was
fruitless. I went later to his bank to see if we
can trace the next of kin from his banking doccuments, we were able to
track the relations.On their arrival, i was their comfidant, i took them to
different places including the NNPC where he did a contract that he was not
paid for before his death, i released all the documments to them to enable
them apply for the payment,and they were paid within seven days.

To my greatest surprise, at the end of the whole claims by the family, i
was turned down, claiming that i was not recorgnised as their late brothers
wife and they as well rejected my pregnatcy and even after given birth, all
my request for them to cater for the child has been fruitless. So because
of the bad treatment i received from his family, i now hold to my chest the
particulars of the funds $20,500.000.00, with the security company.

Consequently, my proposal is that I will like you as
a Foreigner to stand as my parner so that
i will release the particulars of the fund with
the security company presently in ghana to
you so that you can clear this fund for me and
you to share as since i was turned out of the rest fund including his
properties
.I have all the doccuments of deposit,
with the security company to enable you act as
the next of kin.

The cash in question is to the tone of
US$ 20,500,000.00(TWENTY MILLION,FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLAS)

Upon your acceptance of this offer, i have aggreed
to share this fund with you as 30% for you,
50% for me, 10% for ophanage, and 10% for any expenses.

Please note that i have been living a misrable life
since his death. He got me pregnant and now i have
a baby boy as a single parents. My parents disowned
me because they where never in support of our affairs.

Please observe utmost confidentiality, and rest
assured that this
transaction would be most profitable for both of us
because I shall
require your assistance to invest my share in your
country.(Buying of
properties like houses, hotels etc)

Please let me hear from you as soon as you received
this mail and i will introduce you to my lawyer who
will in comfidence handle this transaction with you
as i can not even pay my phone bills for effective
communications with you.

Please treat me as your sister, daughter and the
misrable future of the just born baby by a student
without father.Waiting to hear from you soon.

Miss  Patience  Epue









From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Jul 10 09:50:11 2002
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:50:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fwd: Re: CP meet at H2K2?]
In-Reply-To: <20020710153706.GD16409@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0207101245420.16207-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>


According to the TimeOutNewYork eating and drinking guide:

Blarney Rock
137 W 33rd street between Broadway and Seventh Avenue
212-947-0825

Let's say midnight for *sure* as a meeting time, and perhaps people can
dart out there earlier if they feel like it. I plan to arrive at the con
around 2pm on Saturday and will stick my head in Blarney Rock on the way.
In case anyone wants my number, e-mail me.

-David


On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Greg Newby wrote:

> Sounds like a plan....someone try to remember to put a sign
> up on-site for this.  An actual address for the
> bar would be nice - is this the one on 33rd?




From laure_isabelle at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 10 03:58:44 2002
From: laure_isabelle at hotmail.com (Laurence)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:58:44 +0200
Subject: Bonjour
Message-ID: <3D2A78F6000BC8F2@mel-rta8.wanadoo.fr> (added by postmaster@wanadoo.fr)



DIALFRANCE
Le premier site de rencontre 100% francophone !!!

Visitez cette espace ?

DIALFRANCE
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From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Jul 10 13:30:15 2002
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A.Melon)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:30:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
Message-ID: <5cebbae2c1ea805c30872a3250de67f7@melontraffickers.com>


On 10 July 2002, Bill Stewart <bill.stewart at pobox.com> wrote:
> If your box can support current PC100 / PC133 SIMMs, you can probably
> upgrade it with enough memory to run the newer applications ok, but
> the generation of machines with Fast Page Mode 72-pin memory tends to
> be limited to 32MB or sometimes less, and 386s tend to be 8MB.

It's so difficult for the layperson to find affordable replacements for
those older machines, unfortunately.

I was running X11 on a 386DX40 with 5MB of RAM for quite a while.  It
was slower than a dog with no legs.  Eventually I had some SIMMs go bad,
and they were too expensive to replace, so I ended up investing in a
newer computer instead.

Mr Anonymous




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Wed Jul 10 11:31:40 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:31:40 -0500
Subject: "to outlaw general purpose computers"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20020710100458.04b66c28@idiom.com>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207091408310.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.c
  om> <3D222E0E.F3C622C7@cdc.gov>
  <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207091408310.18556-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>
  <5.1.1.6.2.20020710100458.04b66c28@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20020710183140.GA23749@cybershamanix.com>


On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:11:58AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 08:49 PM 07/09/2002 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 03:17:52PM -0400, Sunder wrote:
> >> Sure, you can revive old hardware with Linux, but you'll find it runs KDE
> >> 3.0 or GNOME slower than windows 95 did on the same hardware.  So unless
> >> you're willing to also go to older software (or at least less demanding
> >> software) you've still got a useless machine.
> >
> >   What? Your brand of crack must be particularly poor these days. A 200mhz
> >cyrix cpu runs linux w/gnome fast enough for most anything. Slower than
> >w95??? Come again? I've run 1ghz boxes and they really don't surf the net 
> >much
> >faster, so what's your point?
> 
> The big issue tends to be memory rather than CPU speed -
> while Linux isn't quite the bloatware that Windows is,
> you *really* don't want to run GNOME with the default window manager
> on a P66 with 16MB RAM.  Trust me, you don't :-)
> Works just fine with TWM or other lightweight window managers.
> You also wouldn't want to run current IE / Netscape 6 on it,
> though Netscape 4.7x worked fast enough.
> 
> If your box can support current PC100 / PC133 SIMMs, you can probably
> upgrade it with enough memory to run the newer applications ok,
> but the generation of machines with Fast Page Mode 72-pin memory
> tends to be limited to 32MB or sometimes less, and 386s tend to be 8MB.
> 

   All quite true. I've got a 486X33 w/20meg that runs linux just fine,
commandline only, although I've got gnome working on it, I don't bother. Good
enough for firewall, router, etc. And I had a bunch of P100 w/16meg that I was
running for awhile as remote boot/NFS/NIS workstations. They worked pretty well,
but were slow with KDE or gnome so went with Afterstep. Also loaded StarOffice
very, very slowly, but Word Perfect popped up fairly well. Granted, I'd rather
use at least a 200, but those were good enough for reading email and websurfing.
   Actually I was recently working with a library that had all 486 machines,
486DX-100 w/32 megs -- running W95, and even they were usable for web surfing. 
   On my main home linux box, a 266, adding the second 128 DIMM didn't seem to
help a great deal -- mind you, I don't doubt that people can see clear
differences with benchmarks and all, but I can't recall the last time I ran any.
I've also got a dual-processor 200mhz (604e)  Mac with 512meg, it seems fairly
fast, good enough for watching DVD movies, although one of these days when I've
got a lot of loose change I'll probably stick a pair of G4's in that and add
another 512 of RAM, just for the heck of it. 8-)


> 
> 

-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From matchnews at foryou.match.com  Wed Jul 10 12:11:20 2002
From: matchnews at foryou.match.com (matchnews@match.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:11:20 -0500
Subject: Learn the lines the ladies love
Message-ID: <20020710190452.ECE2712DC66CD@dal53003.match.com>

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From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Jul 10 00:40:53 2002
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:40:53 +0800
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
References: <08ce1d26456ba63ef9b10af856d47695@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3D2BE505.AE30EE21@mozcom.com>




Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Are you saying that if someone is legally resident in the US for a
> while, the US IRS will attempt to get his assets all over the
> world forever?  I find this hard to believe.

Not necessarily "get" them, but tax them. Believe!

Marc de Piolenc

-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul 10 15:48:27 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:48:27 -0700
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <p05111a07b94ca216bbd0@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <3D2C574B.24790.3446484@localhost>


    --
On 6 Jul 2002 at 9:33, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> Thawte has now announced a round of major price increases.  New
> cert prices appear to have almost doubled, and renewals have
> increased more than 50%. While Thawte proclaims this is their
> first price increase in five years, this comes at a time when we
> should be seeing *increased* competition and *lower* prices for
> such virtual products, not such price increases.  But of course,
> in an effective monopoly environment, it's your way or the
> highway, so this should have been entirely expected.

IE comes preloaded with about 34 root certificate authorities, and
it is easy for the end user to add more, to add more in batches.
Anyone can coerce open SSL to generate any certificates he
pleases, with some work.

Why is not someone else issuing certificates?

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     FgD9xqiaNt/GIr99+cDvezUuY9K7pVf/sr8sYLtx
     2U+1rnhprPRzvE4aLRCq4ADtyF4DDrnAKjbwHgbFn




From MoreInks at netscape.net  Wed Jul 10 15:50:46 2002
From: MoreInks at netscape.net (MoreInks)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:50:46 -0700
Subject: No Shipping Charges on all Ink Cartridges
Message-ID: <200207102104.QAA23072@einstein.ssz.com>

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From MoreInks at netscape.net  Wed Jul 10 16:02:54 2002
From: MoreInks at netscape.net (MoreInks)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:02:54 -0700
Subject: Lowest Priced Scooters on the Net
Message-ID: <200207102117.QAA23403@einstein.ssz.com>

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From gbroiles at parrhesia.com  Wed Jul 10 16:31:24 2002
From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:31:24 -0700
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <3D2C574B.24790.3446484@localhost>
References: <p05111a07b94ca216bbd0@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710162215.03a1ea40@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 03:48 PM 7/10/2002 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>     --
>On 6 Jul 2002 at 9:33, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> > Thawte has now announced a round of major price increases.  New
> > cert prices appear to have almost doubled, and renewals have
> > increased more than 50%.
>[...]
>Why is not someone else issuing certificates?

See <http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/sdata/200206/certca.html> for 
recent data re SSL certificate market share; Geotrust, at 
<http://www.geotrust.com>, has 11% of the market, and appears (from their 
web pages; I haven't bought one) to be ready to issue SSL server certs 
without the torturous document review process which Verisign invented but 
Thawte managed to make simultaneously more intrusive and less relevant.


--
Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961




From jays at panix.com  Wed Jul 10 14:17:06 2002
From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:17:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <2c5c299114a1b1c1c9219ad45fb4aa90@aarg.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207101640170.7604-100000@panix2.panix.com>



On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, AARG!Anonymous wrote:

< ... />

> Right, and you can boot untrusted OS's as well.  Recently there was
> discussion here of HP making a trusted form of Linux that would work with
> the TCPA hardware.  So you will have options in both the closed source and
> open source worlds to boot trusted OS's, or you can boot untrusted ones,
> like old versions of Windows.  The user will have more choice, not less.

< ... />

Nonsense.  Let us remember what Palladium is:

Palladium is a system designed to enable a few large corporations and
governments to run source secret, indeed, well-encrypted, code on home
user's machines in such a way that the home user cannot see, modify, or
control the running code.

The Orwellian, strictly Animal Farmish, claim runs: "Why it is all just
perfectly OK, because anyone can run source secret, well encrypted, code in
an uncontrolled manner on anyone's machine at will!  We are all equal, it
is just that some, that is, We the Englobulators, will in practice get to
run source secret, well-encrypted, code on hundreds of millions of users'
machines while you, you will never run such code on anybody else's machine
except at a hobbyists' fair, precisely to demonstrate we are all equal.".

There are other advantages to Palladium:

No free kernel will ever freely boot on a Palladium machine.

And there is more.   If Palladium is instituted:

Microsoft will support the most vicious interpretation of the DMCA and
press for passage of the SSSCA, in order that the first crack does not
prove to the world that Palladium cannot prevent all copyright
infringement.  Microsoft will be able to say "See, it is these
GNU/BSD/XFree/Sendmail/Apache/CLISP folk who are causing all this dreadful
copyright infringement.  Why owning a non-Palladium machine should be
declared, no, not illegal, we are not monsters after all, but probative
evidence that the owner is an infringer, and more, a general infringer and
a member of the Copyright Infringement Conspiracy.  Why some of them even
write such code as the well known, and in CIC circles, widely used, tool of
infringement called 'cp'.  Senator, I know you will be as shocked as I was
when I learned what 'cp' stands for.  It stands for 'copy'.  And I do not
mean safe Englobulator-Certified Fair Use Copying, such as is provided by
the Triple X Box, which, for a reasonable license fee, allows up to six
copy-protected copies to be made before settling of accounts and
re-certification of the Box over the net.  No, I mean, raw, completely
promiscuous copying of any file on the machine, as many times as the
infringer wishes.  Without record, without payment to the artist, without
restraint.  Senator, I prefer to call cp 'The Boston Strangler', because
that is exactly what it is.  And every single non-Palladium operating
system in the world comes with cp already loaded, loaded and running.".

oo--JS.


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From Ross.Anderson at cl.cam.ac.uk  Wed Jul 10 09:50:04 2002
From: Ross.Anderson at cl.cam.ac.uk (Ross Anderson)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:50:04 +0100
Subject: Microsoft censors Newsweek - and new version of TCPA FAQ
Message-ID: <E17SKfI-0005OC-00@wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk>


I see that MSNBC has pulled the original article on Palladium:

        http://www.msnbc.com/news/770551.asp

Anyway, I have just put up version 1.0 of the TCPA / Palladium FAQ
at the same URL:

        http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html

Enjoy!

Ross




From MoreInks at netscape.net  Wed Jul 10 18:23:30 2002
From: MoreInks at netscape.net (MoreInks)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:23:30 -0700
Subject: Over 40,000 Products In Stock!
Message-ID: <200207102337.SAA26424@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 10 16:39:42 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:39:42 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Eavesblogging the Internet Law Program
Message-ID: <3D2CC5BD.BF77B2F0@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/10/1820236.shtml?tid=123
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jul 10 20:15:22 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:15:22 -0700
Subject: Microsoft censors Newsweek - and new version of TCPA FAQ
Message-ID: <E17SReB-0003Tt-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


We failed to save a copy of Steven Levy's Palladium article in Newsweek 
and online at MSNBC, now withdrawn by MSNBC. We can find no copy 
online. Whoever save a copy: we would like to receive it for publication to 
assure its continued availability.

A Microsoft programmer, John DeTreville, named in the alleged 
"Palladium" patent published on Cryptome, has written us 
(copy below) to deny the ms-drm-os patent is Palladium -- which 
he claims is based on another patent or several of them. We would 
appreciate leads on which patent or patents he is referring to.

Thanks.

-----


From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Jul 10 12:50:40 2002
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:50:40 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Message-ID: <12c8c69a431b662dfd75c7641eb1d92e@dizum.com>


Nomen Nescio wrote:
> > Are you saying that if someone is legally resident in the US
> > for a while, the US IRS will attempt to get his assets all
> > over the world forever?  I find this hard to believe.

On 10 Jul 2002 at 15:40, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> Not necessarily "get" them, but tax them. Believe!

So what you are suggesting is that I might as well take out US
citizenship, since the IRS behaves just as piratically and
imperially to anyone who gets a job in the US?




From jays at panix.com  Wed Jul 10 20:19:54 2002
From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:19:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <3D2C574B.24790.3446484@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207102311001.3815-100000@panix2.panix.com>


On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 6 Jul 2002 at 9:33, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> > Thawte has now announced a round of major price increases.  New
> > cert prices appear to have almost doubled, and renewals have
> > increased more than 50%. While Thawte proclaims this is their
> > first price increase in five years, this comes at a time when we
> > should be seeing *increased* competition and *lower* prices for
> > such virtual products, not such price increases.  But of course,
> > in an effective monopoly environment, it's your way or the
> > highway, so this should have been entirely expected.
>
> IE comes preloaded with about 34 root certificate authorities, and
> it is easy for the end user to add more, to add more in batches.
> Anyone can coerce open SSL to generate any certificates he
> pleases, with some work.
>
> Why is not someone else issuing certificates?
>
>     --digsig
>          James A. Donald

Because the buyers of certificates have a different model of what they are
buying.  They neither know, nor can they care, because they do not know,
about the subtle "protocols" published over the last twenty-five years that
supposedly, if executed carefully, provide certain "guarantees".  No.  The
customers know that to get stuff they want, such as permission to put the
label "Your credit card information is secure.  We use Thawte Certificates,
Thawte, the Guarantor, your Rock of Assurance." on their PAY HERE NOW web
page, they must buy a certificate from Thawte, and not from Captain Gull
Enterprises, Division of Certificates.  The customer knows that crypto is
subtle, and only a well known large corporation can be trusted.  After all,
they have the resources, and the name, and if you do not use them, and
something goes wrong, well perhaps a canny lawyer might be able to show
that you were not using the industry standard, which might lose you the
case.

oo--JS.




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Thu Jul 11 01:22:18 2002
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:22:18 -0700
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <200207110317.PAA229757@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <002901c228b4$14522fb0$6501a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>

Peter Gutmann wrote, quoting Matthias Bruestle:
> Both Netscape 6 and MSIE 5 contain ~100 built-in, 
> automatically-trusted CA certs.
> 
>  * Certs with 512-bit keys.
> 
>  * Certs with 40-year lifetimes.
>  
>  * Certs from organisations you've never heard of before 
> ("Honest Joe's Used
>    Cars and Certificates").
>    
>  * Certs from CAs with unmaintained/moribund websites 
> ("404.notfound.com").

One thing to keep in mind is that the name of the CA on the
pre-installed root cert in some cases will bean no relation to the
actual issuer of the cert. Just because the business of
some.trusted.ca.nil has gone under does not mean their root keys are out
of circulation.

"Trusted roots" have long been bought and sold on the secondary market
as any other commodity. For surprisingly low amounts, you too can own a
trusted root that comes pre-installed in >95% of all web browsers
deployed.

In fact, it is considerably more expensive for an aspiring public CA
provider to incur the costs of policies and procedures development,
equipment expenditures, auditing cost, etc. required to have a root
added to browsers nowadays than it is to just buy an existing trusted
CA's Chrysalis or nCipher HSM.

--Lucky


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From qatesters at sohu.com  Wed Jul 10 23:54:23 2002
From: qatesters at sohu.com (qatesters at sohu.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:54:23 -0500
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Message-ID: <dd7cge.3k6op@it-hourlyrates.com>


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JDBC2.0,JTA,JTS,JNDI,SOAP,XML,XSL,Unix  & Windows

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****C/UNIX/Embedded Developer: Strong C/C++ Programming skills on LINUX/UNIX,shell scripts[SH,BASH,CSH]
Assembly on X86,UNIX/Linux Internals (Internals of File, Process and Memory Management sub-systems), Sun Solaris 8.0
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Multi-Threading, Socket Programming,experience with POSIX API and POSIX THREADS and MUTEX
Knowledge in tools like GCC, Make, Telnet, GTK, Electice Fence, GDB

******People Soft  HRMS product suite , People code, People tools and nvision

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From Michelle at sexy-emails.com  Thu Jul 11 00:14:32 2002
From: Michelle at sexy-emails.com (Michelle at sexy-emails.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 03:14:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 100% FREE AMATEUR HARDCORE WEBCAMS
Message-ID: <200207110714.g6B7EWg05795@w0.xxxletter.com>

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From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Jul 10 20:30:12 2002
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:30:12 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
Message-ID: <92d931fb27aa5f38e8cca782607e22d8@dizum.com>


    --
Oh shit.  It really is the empire.

According to http://www.techvisas.com/taxation.htm
	Taxation of Aliens who Have Departed - Anti-Expatriation
	Rules.

	Aliens who live in the U.S. as residents, irrespective of
	visa status, face special anti-expatriation rules. Such
	rules were formerly applied only to U.S. citizens who
	cancelled their U.S. citizenship in order to be free of
	U.S. gift and estate taxes. As a result, termination of
	lawful permanent resident status after several years will
	result in continuing liability of the foreigners gifts
	and patrimony (assets) to U.S. probate and estate taxes
	for 10 years after such termination




From qatesters at sohu.com  Thu Jul 11 03:50:14 2002
From: qatesters at sohu.com (qatesters at sohu.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:50:14 -0500
Subject: [SOFTWARE PROFESSIONALS-CONTRACT/CONTRACT TO HIRE-QA TESTERS,DBA'S,NETWORK ADMIN,C,C++,EMBEDDED,UNIX,SIEBEL,WEB DEVELOPERS,PEOPLE SOFT,LOTUS NOTES
Message-ID: <5ykgan.3y1nnj6l3a5o81f7hm4@it-hourlyrates.com>


From:-
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PCI Data     
Marketing Division
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Assembly on X86,UNIX/Linux Internals (Internals of File, Process and Memory Management sub-systems), Sun Solaris 8.0
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Multi-Threading, Socket Programming,experience with POSIX API and POSIX THREADS and MUTEX
Knowledge in tools like GCC, Make, Telnet, GTK, Electice Fence, GDB

******People Soft  HRMS product suite , People code, People tools and nvision

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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jul 11 07:31:36 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:31:36 -0700
Subject: Microsoft's Second DRM Patent
Message-ID: <E17ScCb-0000UT-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Cryptome offers Microsoft's second patent on digital rights management, 
invented by the same three persons as the first, Paul England, 
John DeTreville and Butler Lampson:

  http://cryptome.org/ms-drm-os2.htm

This second patent was issued on December 7, 2001, a week before the 
first available here:

  http://cryptome.org/ms-drm-os.htm

John DeTreville wrote on July 8, 2002, that neither he nor Butler
Lampson were Palladium programmers, as distinguished from Paul England
who was cited by Steven Levy in Newsweek as a Palladium programmer.
John referred to another patent underlying Palladium.

Cryptome did a search of the US Patent Office archives for other 
patents by the three inventors and for those assigned to Microsoft from 
1996 to July 9, 2002. Only two patents for digtial rights management 
were listed, out of more than 2,000 Microsoft patents for the period:
the two referenced above on Cryptome.

Ross Anderson reported yesterday that MSNBC has pulled the Palladium 
article by Steven Levy, which is now here:

  http://cryptome.org/palladium-sl.htm

See Ross's updated FAQ on TCPA and Palladium: 

  http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Jul 10 16:47:56 2002
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:47:56 +0800
Subject: Tax consequences...
References: <12c8c69a431b662dfd75c7641eb1d92e@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3D2CC7AC.8F1AE2B4@mozcom.com>


Nomen Nescio wrote:

> So what you are suggesting is that I might as well take out US
> citizenship, since the IRS behaves just as piratically and
> imperially to anyone who gets a job in the US?

Considering only taxes, I think that's correct. You do need to consider
other things, such as what happens to your citizenship in your native
country if you are naturalized in a foreign country. Some governments
don't care, while others will treat you as an alien when you return.

As for the IRS: Your green card status means you have put yourself
squarely in their sights. Giving up the green card apparently doesn't
get you immediately off the hook, as they will still try to tax you like
a citizen. I recommend getting advice from a good US tax ATTORNEY (not a
tax preparer, who is basically an IRS employee paid by you), without
disclosing your SSN or any other identifying numbers even to him. You
also need to find out about tax treaties between your native country and
the US.

So much for legalities (which the IRS tends to ignore anyway, when they
don't suit them). Tactically, you have probably already disclosed
certain things to the IRS, and have immovable and illiquid assets within
their reach that are identifiable with you. You have to weigh the
advantages of simply moving offshore and telling them to pound salt
against what they can grab when/if you do so. You may find you need a
period of preparation during which you make your assets less vulnerable
and/or less easy to trace to you.

Marc de Piolenc

-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin





From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 10 23:57:07 2002
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:57:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [linux-elitists] Casual Encryption (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207110856560.13849-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:11:59 -0700
From: Aaron T Porter <atporter at primate.net>
To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
Subject: [linux-elitists] Casual Encryption


	Just a quick plea for all the elitists to seriously consider
enabling SMTP-TLS on any and all mail servers they control. With the US
government in Ashcroft juggernaut mode for the forseable future, I fear
that the use of encryption will quickly become a red flag for further
observation. If we can reach a point where a sizable portion of SMTP
traffic is encrypted regardless of the content we can reduce any
implications of sending encrypted mail. Probably doesn't make your
standard Carnivore install too happy either.
	On most mail systems, enabling TLS is incredibly easy (one line
config change on my Debian Sendmail box). It's a one-time fix that affects
even technologically challenged users. I've tacked some links below for
common MTA's.

Qmail http://www.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/~vermeule/qmail/tls.patch
Postfix http://www.aet.tu-cottbus.de/personen/jaenicke/pfixtls/
Exim http://www.exim.org/exim-html-3.20/doc/html/spec_38.html
Sendmail http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/starttls.html
_______________________________________________
linux-elitists 
http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists




From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 11 08:59:18 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:59:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <20020630072426.46110.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020711155918.60760.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,



suppose a cryptanalysis only has encrypted data-how is
going 2 know which is the encrytion algorithm used 2
encrypt the data ,so that he can effeciently
cryptanalyse if

1:>he has large amount of cipher text only
2:>has large amount of plain text and corresponding
cipher text.

There r so many encryption algorithms,how does he know
which algorithm was used?

Regards Data.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com




From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 11 09:06:17 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:06:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <20020711155918.60760.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020711160617.65274.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com>


i meant cryptanalyst-hope i spelled that rite :-)

Data.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com




From InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com  Thu Jul 11 06:33:57 2002
From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (Insight on the News)
Date: 11 Jul 2002 09:33:57 -0400
Subject: Insight on the News Email Edition
Message-ID: <200207110934616.SM01248@broadbandpublisher.com>


INSIGHT NEWS ALERT!

New stories from Insight on the News are now online.

http://www.insightmag.com

...............................................

Folks, John Berlau did it again with his expose of the 50,000 �research� audits 
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missed it http://www.insightmag.com/news/257505.html. And find out why the big 
business associations are cozying up to the terrorists 
http://www.insightmag.com/news/257525.html. Read on for more doings in 
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...............................................

THE 3 TERRORISTS AND THE TOPLESS BAR

Have you heard the one about the 3 men with Arab names who threatened a San 
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Read on.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/257864.html

...............................................

WHY IS BIG BUSINESS JUMPING IN BED WITH TERROR?

James Edwards asks in the war against terrorism, just whose side is big business 
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http://www.insightmag.com/news/257525.html

...............................................

THE PLEDGE FIASCO---HOW COULD IT COME TO THIS?

Thomas Sowell writes now that the ruling by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of 
Appeals has been protested all over the land, perhaps we might step back and 
consider the broader implications of the fact that such a decision could have 
been made in the first place.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/257527.html



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Of the many roles Benjamin Franklin played in his storied life, he is perhaps 
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THE TEACHERS UNIONS� ANTI-VOUCHER BATTLE PLAN

Jennifer Hickey reveals that the June 27 ruling issued by the Supreme Court in 
Zelman v. Simmons-Harris has raised the ire of teacher unions and other special-
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http://www.insightmag.com/news/257506.html

...............................................

BOYS WILL BE. . . . WHAT?

Wood West offers his opinion about the trend of turning Schools Into No-
Testosterone Zones 

http://www.insightmag.com/news/257515.html

...............................................

SYMPOSIUM--PRO & CON: IS THE MEDIA PROMOTING ANTI-CATHOLIC BIAS?

http://www.insightmag.com/news/257516.html

MICHAEL SCHWARTZ SAYS--YES: Stereotyping, a lack of depth and political 
correctness are all too prevalent.

PETER HART SAYS--NO: The media have performed a service by exposing this crisis 
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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Jul 11 08:46:57 2002
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:46:57 -0600
Subject: Tax
Message-ID: <3D2DA871.8F83FD59@lsil.com>


>Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> > Are you saying that if someone is legally resident in the US
>> > for a while, the US IRS will attempt to get his assets all
>> > over the world forever?  I find this hard to believe.
>
>On 10 Jul 2002 at 15:40, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
>> Not necessarily "get" them, but tax them. Believe!
>
More like tax any income derived from those assets.




From jsd at monmouth.com  Thu Jul 11 06:59:49 2002
From: jsd at monmouth.com (John S. Denker)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:59:49 -0400
Subject: vulnerability in Outlook PGP plugin
References: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207101640170.7604-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3D2D8F55.2F3076F@monmouth.com>

http://www.eeye.com/html/Research/Advisories/AD20020710.html

This vulnerability can be exploited by the Outlook user simply
selecting a "malicious" email, the opening of an attachment is 
not required. 
...
[NAI] have released a patch for the latest versions of the PGP
Outlook plug-in to protect systems from this flaw. Users can 
download the patch from:
        
http://www.nai.com/naicommon/download/upgrade/patches/patch-pgphotfix.asp


=============================
By TED BRIDIS, Associated Press Writer

 WASHINGTON (AP) - The world's most popular software for scrambling
 sensitive e-mails suffers from a programming flaw that could allow
 hackers to attack a user's computer and, in some circumstances,
 unscramble messages.

 The software, called Pretty Good Privacy, or PGP, is the de facto
 standard for encrypting e-mails and is widely used by corporate and
 government offices, including some FBI ( news - web sites) agents and
 U.S. intelligence agencies. The scrambling technology is so powerful
 that until 1999 the federal government sought to restrict its sale
 out of fears that criminals, terrorists and foreign nations might use
 it.

 The new vulnerability, discovered weeks ago by researchers at eEye
 Digital Security Inc., does not exploit any weakness in the complex
 encrypting formulas used to scramble messages into
 gibberish. Instead, hackers are able to attack a programming flaw in
 an important piece of companion software, called a plug-in, that
 helps users of Microsoft Corp.'s Outlook e-mail program encrypt
 messages with a few mouse clicks.

 Outlook itself has emerged as the world's standard for e-mail
 software, with tens of millions of users inside many of the world's
 largest corporations and government offices. Smaller numbers use the
 Outlook plug-in to scramble their most sensitive messages so that
 only the recipient can read them.

 "It's not the number of people using PGP but the fact that they're
 using it because they're trying to safeguard their data," said Marc
 Maiffret, the eEye executive and researcher who discovered the
 problem. "Whatever the percentage is, it's very important data."

 Maiffret said there was no evidence anyone had successfully attacked
 users of the encryption software with this technique. He said the
 programming flaw was "not totally obvious," even to trained
 researchers examining the software blueprints.

 Network Associates Inc. of Santa Clara, Calif., which until February
 distributed both commercial and free versions of PGP, made available
 on its Web site a free download to fix the software. The company
 announced earlier it was suspending new sales of the software, which
 hasn't been profitable, but moved within weeks to repair the problem
 in existing versions. The company's shares fell 50 cents to $17.70 in
 Tuesday trading on the New York Stock Exchange ( news - web sites).

 Free versions of PGP are widely available on the World Wide Web.

 The flaw allows a hacker to send a specially coded e-mail - which
would appear as a blank message followed by an error warning - and
effectively seize control of the victim's computer. The hacker could
then install spy software to record keystrokes, steal financial
records or copy a person's secret unlocking keys to unscramble their
sensitive e-mails. Other protective technology, such as corporate
firewalls, could make this more difficult.

 "You can do whatever you want - execute code, read e-mails, install a
 backdoor, steal their keys. You could intercept all that stuff,"
 Maiffret said.

 Experts said the convenience of the plug-ins for popular e-mail
 programs broadened the risk from this latest threat, since encryption
 software is famously cumbersome to use without them. Even the creator
 of PGP, Philip Zimmermann, relies on such a plug-in, although
 Zimmermann uses one that works with Eudora e-mail software and does
 not suffer the same vulnerability as Outlook's.

 A plug-in for Microsoft's Outlook Express - a scaled-down version of
 Outlook - is not affected by the flaw.

 Maiffret said his company immediately deactivated the vulnerable
 software on all its computers, which can be done with nine
 mouse-clicks using Outlook, until it could apply the repairs from
 Network Associates. The decision improved security but "makes it kind
 of a pain" to send encrypted e-mails, he said.

 Zimmermann, in an interview, said PGP software is used "quite
 extensively" by U.S. agencies, based on sales when he formerly worked
 at Network Associates. He also said use of the vulnerable companion
 plug-in was widespread. Zimmermann declined to specify which
 U.S. agencies might be at risk, but other experts have described
 trading scrambled e-mails using PGP and Outlook with employees at the
 FBI, the Energy Department and even the super-secret National
 Security Agency.

 In theory, only nonclassified U.S. information would be at risk from
 this flaw. Agencies impose strict rules against transmitting any
 classified messages - encrypted or not - over the Internet, using the
 government's own secret networks instead.

 "The only time the government would use PGP is when it's dealing with
 sensitive but unclassified information and has a reasonable degree of
 assurance that both parties have PGP," said Mark Rasch, a former
 U.S. prosecutor and expert on computer security.  "It's hardly used
 on a routine basis."

 __

 On the Net:

 eEye Digital Security: http://www.eeye.com/

 Network Associates: http://www.nai.com/

 MIT's PGP site: http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html

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From eresrch at eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 10:26:25 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <20020711155918.60760.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207111020590.24413-100000@eskimo.com>


On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:

> suppose a cryptanalysis only has encrypted data-how is
> going 2 know which is the encrytion algorithm used 2
> encrypt the data ,so that he can effeciently
> cryptanalyse if
>
> 1:>he has large amount of cipher text only
> 2:>has large amount of plain text and corresponding
> cipher text.
>
> There r so many encryption algorithms,how does he know
> which algorithm was used?

Depends on how they got the source.  They may know it's one of 5
possible choices because of the person who sent (or received) it.
If it's just found on a disk in a garbage dump with no connections
to anyone, it's a bit tougher.  But every algorithm has some statistical
signature and if you've got enough cipher text you can compare that
signature with known algorithms to home in on fewer choices.

I'm not sure having the plaintext helps much more, but you could
use random keys to create several ciphertexts with known algorithms and
compare the statistics just to see if they compare better.

It's definitly challenging :-)

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 11 10:32:43 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:32:43 -0700
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <200207111109.36204.sfurlong@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <358D242E-94F4-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 08:09  AM, Steve Furlong wrote:

> On Wednesday 10 July 2002 09:55, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
>> So, to the subject of the original question: I don't think taking up
>> US citizenship, then retiring abroad, makes a hell of a lot of
>> sense from a tax point of view, unless the Social Security payments
>> are important...
>
> I wouldn't figure SS payments into my calculations unless I were to
> retire in the next few years. As the SS crunch looms nearer, watch for
> payments to people outside the US to go on the chopping block.
>
> Not that I expect to get anything from SS myself regardless of whether I
> stay in the US. 29 years until retirement, even if the age isn't pushed
> back again.

As everyone should know by now, and probably does, the Social Security 
scheme in the U.S. is nothing more than a large Ponzi scheme. Payroll 
taxes, amounting to about 15% of income up to some level (ratcheted 
upwards every few years), go straight into the General Fund, where the 
34%-39% top tax rate funds and all of the other taxes go into.

The General Fund (not its official name...it may not have one) issues 
the SS Geheimstatssecuritatwelfarefund an "IOU" for the trillions owed 
by the General Fund to the SS G.

Those IOUs are not even computed as part of the national debt. (!!) Talk 
about using Enron accounting!

The national debt is now estimated to be around $5 trillion, or about 
$67,000 per family. But this figure fails to account for two very 
important additional indebtednesses: first, the SS IOUs, and second, the 
"unsecured liabilities" that the U.S.G. has taken on due to 50 years of 
legislation. These unsecured liabilities include the rising pensions 
costs of our enormous military forces (no separate fund established), 
the loan guarantees to hundreds of unions and private retirement funds, 
and vast amounts of indebtedness for "guarantees" made to other nations, 
other organizations.

A friend of mine was an insurance industry expert. Some years ago he 
showed me the calculations of what the _actual_ indebtedness of the U.S. 
government is, based on accepted, standard accounting practices (as 
opposed to the Ponzi scheme accounting practices most governments use).

Based on legal, contractual agreements, the national debt at the time he 
showed me the figures (circa 1990) was $20 trillion ($20 x 10^12). 
Dividing by about 100 million households in the U.S., this is $200,000 
per household.

This of course exceeds by a wide margin the entire asset value of most 
households.

We owe more than we have. Which is typical of situations where people 
pay, as but one example, to have young black girls living in their own 
places with no job and no husband, just watching "Oprah" and having more 
babies and with the costs of this destructive nonproductiveness paid for 
the Ponzi way: "Just put it on my credit card!"

Or when $9 billion a year is given to Israel/Egypt (we give Israel $5 
billion a year to keep their economy and their stalags running, so we 
cut a deal with Sadat to give almost as much to Egypt to keep their 
Swiss bank accounts filling up), we pay for it by just saying "Charge 
it!"

Charge it...some future generation will pay. Our political system is set 
up to avoid hard decisions and simply to push tough decisions further 
out into the future. This is why more than $20 trillion is now part of 
our legal obligation.

(BTW, the old chestnut that "we just owe it to ourselves, so what's the 
big deal" doesn't fly. For lots of reasons I'm sure intelligent folks 
can figure out.)

Things get much, much worse when we look at the retirement of the Baby 
Boomers, the leading edge of which is set to start collecting SS and 
other benefits in about 6-7 years (not counting folks who retired 
early). The full impact of this wave will hit around 2020, when things 
get really squirrelly.

(Things could get squirrelly even earlier, should high interest rates 
come back. The offiicial national debt of $5-6 trillion is quite a bit 
higher than the ND was in the early 80s, when 14% interest rates were a 
real problem. If we see 10-15% rates again, with a national debt of $6 
trillion, it'll be "Katie, bar the door!")

Much of the income of the high earners, the productive engineers and 
others who make up for the Doritos-eating welfare breeders, is already 
taxed doubly or even triply. (No time for a rant, but corporate earnings 
are taxed at 40-50%, when corporate income taxes and payroll and other 
taxes are added up, then the dividends and capital gains paid out are 
taxed _again_ at 30-40%. And then there are the property taxes, the 
school taxes, the energy taxes, the sales taxes, and all the rest.

In about 15-18 years things are going to get real ugly in this country. 
Each high worth taxpayer (a subset of those estimated 100 million 
taxpaying households, most of whom pay much less in taxes than high 
worth taxpayers do) will have as his share of the national debt 
something like $800,000 (by my calculations, admittedly iffy). This is 
the lump sum they would have to pay to pay the credit card bills, not 
even counting the 50% tax rates on their current incomes to fund current 
Ponzi payments.

Any way we cut it, America has been "charging it" for too long, with too 
many handouts to foreigners to buy their loyalty, with too many 
incentives for people to "go on disability" or "accept 80% early 
retirement" or just sit at home and breed.

What we haven't paid for with cumulative taxes approaching 70% of real 
earnings (ask me for details of my situation sometime), we have simply 
charged on our credit card.

The chickens will come home to roost. Just as the biggest companies, 
like Enron, K-Mart, Worldcom, are now the biggest bankruptcies in 
history, I see the odds as pretty good that the U.S. will effectively 
default on the promises it has made that it cannot possibly keep.

The U.S. empire may go down in history as the largest financial collapse 
ever.


--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Jul 11 08:09:36 2002
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:09:36 -0400
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen.
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD00@exna07.securitydy
  namics.com>
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD00@exna07.securitydyn
  amics.com>
Message-ID: <200207111109.36204.sfurlong@acmenet.net>


On Wednesday 10 July 2002 09:55, Trei, Peter wrote:

> So, to the subject of the original question: I don't think taking up
> US citizenship, then retiring abroad, makes a hell of a lot of
> sense from a tax point of view, unless the Social Security payments
> are important...

I wouldn't figure SS payments into my calculations unless I were to 
retire in the next few years. As the SS crunch looms nearer, watch for 
payments to people outside the US to go on the chopping block.

Not that I expect to get anything from SS myself regardless of whether I 
stay in the US. 29 years until retirement, even if the age isn't pushed 
back again.

SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel

Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Thu Jul 11 11:42:59 2002
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:42:59 -0700
Subject: DNA databases to be classified
Message-ID: <200207111842.g6BIgxo73515@mailserver2.hushmail.com>


Scientists build polio virus from scratch

Scientists have built the virus that causes polio from scratch in 
the lab, using nothing more than genetic sequence information from 
public databases and readily available technology. 

The feat proves that even if all the polio virus in the world were 
destroyed, it would be easily possible to resurrect the crippling 
disease. It also raises the worrying possibility that bioterrorists 
could use a similar approach to create devastating diseases such as 
ebola and smallpox without having to gain access to protected viral 
stocks.


To read the full story go to:
http://www.prq0.com/apps/redir.asp?link=XbdfjjdiDI,ZbccecfhcaCF&oid=UcjjbCB&iclitemid=XbdijfjaDF&tid=WbbcaffBE

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Jul 11 12:24:27 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:24:27 -0700
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <002901c228b4$14522fb0$6501a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>
References: <200207110317.PAA229757@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <3D2D78FB.6011.1152B27@localhost>

    --
On 11 Jul 2002 at 1:22, Lucky Green wrote:
> "Trusted roots" have long been bought and sold on the secondary
> market as any other commodity. For surprisingly low amounts, you
> too can own a trusted root that comes pre-installed in >95% of
> all web browsers deployed.

 How much, typically?

And who actually owns these numerous trusted roots? 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     y1gI63PXnGNK7Iznu3+gY+/0JLBPRaEEV/OWwPub
     20YHSnGmtg7lQW0NdXU4WMeKWfIQmlq3u3F/wjkOo


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From sws at cs.dartmouth.edu  Thu Jul 11 10:16:19 2002
From: sws at cs.dartmouth.edu (Sean Smith)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:16:19 -0400
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:48:27 PDT."
             <3D2C574B.24790.3446484@localhost> 
Message-ID: <200207111716.g6BHGJX31525@chipotle.cs.dartmouth.edu>


>IE comes preloaded with about 34 root certificate authorities, and
>it is easy for the end user to add more, to add more in batches.

A colleague of mine just loaded a new root into IE, and pointed
out that when one does this, the new root is apparently BY DEFAULT
enabled for all purposes, including some interesting ones
like "Digital Rights" and "Windows System Component Verification."

I just tried this, and it appears to be the case.  (But I haven't 
yet tried to see whether Windows will happily use my root for these 
OS-specific purposes....)

--Sean











-- 
Sean W. Smith, Ph.D.                         sws at cs.dartmouth.edu   
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sws/       (has ssl link to pgp key)
Department of Computer Science, Dartmouth College, Hanover NH USA




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From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk  Thu Jul 11 05:21:31 2002
From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (David Howe)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:21:31 +0100
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
References: <3D2C574B.24790.3446484@localhost>
Message-ID: <006301c228d5$837197c0$c71121c2@sharpuk.co.uk>


jamesd at echeque.com <jamesd at echeque.com> was seen to declaim:
> IE comes preloaded with about 34 root certificate authorities, and
> it is easy for the end user to add more, to add more in batches.
> Anyone can coerce open SSL to generate any certificates he
> pleases, with some work.
> Why is not someone else issuing certificates?
Mostly because of the alarming things IE/NS/Whatever says if you haven't
already got the root cert in your browser when you visit a site relying
on a "homebrewed" cert. Certainly some time ago, the OpenCA project were
giving away ssl certs for free to all comers; the software they produced
is open source (and at sourceforge) so anyone could open their own CA
with whatever authentication criteria they wish (and indeed, the owner
of news.securecomp.org (nntp) is in the early stages of a X509-based CA
on a hierachical but distributed model (ie, regional CAs you can apply
personally to with proof of ID)
Doesn't help much when the sheeple won't trust anything that doesn't
come pre-installed by microsoft though.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Jul 11 11:25:17 2002
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:25:17 -0400
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <358D242E-94F4-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <358D242E-94F4-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <200207111425.17130.sfurlong@acmenet.net>


On Thursday 11 July 2002 13:32, Tim May wrote:

(Regarding SS and other USG liabilities)

> Charge it...some future generation will pay.

I hope not. Addressing only the SS issue and not other USG debt, I'm 
attempting to organize a nation-wide grassroots movement. On a 
to-be-announced "F-day", every member of the movement will kill a 
designated old fart, one who has long since taken back out of SS 
anything s/he put into the system and is now subsisting solely on SS 
checks and other welfare. Bonus points for killing an old fart who has 
taken much more out of the system than he put in and yet was loudly 
agitating for an increase in benefits to help "the greatest generation, 
who gave so much for their country". Old farts who are still working or 
who are living on saved assets are exempt.

I'd prefer a system which simply cut off benefits once a person's own 
"contributions" had been exhausted (sort of like, you know, a personal 
retirement account) but that seems to be a non-option. (I'd _really_ 
prefer a system where each person was responsible for his own late-life 
well-being, but that kind of talk just gets you thrown in the loony bin 
these days.)

Anyone interested in the F-day movement might also be interested in 
L-day (for lawyers) and CP-day (for career politicians). Web sites 
forthcoming.

SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel

Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking




From SearchEngine8177249 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 11 13:25:38 2002
From: SearchEngine8177249 at yahoo.com (SearchEngine8177249 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:25:38 -0600
Subject: "How to get a top 10 ranking on the top 20 search engines for under $500"
Message-ID: <200207111929.OAA13331@einstein.ssz.com>


"How to get targeted visitors for 1.2 cents per visitor"
by Dan Millman

Would you like to drive targeted quality traffic to your site for between .2 cents and 1.49 cents per visitor? You can. On the internet, quality targeted traffic is the lifeblood of any online business. One of the reasons so many don't succeed is that 10% of the websites get 90% of the traffic. With this method, your site can become one of those 10% and as a result, your business will grow.
How can you do it? How can you get targeted visitors for under 2 cents per visitor? By optimizing and submitting your site to the top 20 search engines using proprietary optimization methods. The strategies and techniques I will talk about can get you top 10 rankings on virtually all the free search engines for your targeted keywords. 

Q. What is the cost per visitor with this method?
The cost per visitor with this method generally varies between .2 cents per visitor and 1.49 cents per visitor. This is less than the paid search engines (which have a minimum cost of 5 cents per visitor), banners (minimum cost 30 to 35 cents per visitor) and other methods such as lists (50 cents to $2.00 or more per visitor). The free search engines are simply the best, most effective and affordable way to advertise online. For this reason, more web-based entrepreneurs have made money from the search engines than from all other methods combined. 
Lets take a look at the numbers. There is no "typical" website with average traffic. However, most websites with good rankings on the search engines will get anywhere from 50 to 1000 or more visitors a day depending on the number of keyword targeted, the keyword's popularity, and how attractive the website's title is. Lets say you're on the low end of that spectrum only getting 100 visitors a day. My company charges $395 for 1 year's worth of search engine submission. It is reasonable to assume that it will take 2-3 months to get your listings ranked well on all the engines(the engines take time to reindex their rankings-you will start to get traffic within 3 to 5 days, some will begin delivering traffic after two to three weeks and others will take 2-3 months). 
You'll be up to speed before that but to take the most negative possible assumption, if it takes 3 months to get fully up to speed and the total service lasts for 12 months, that leaves 9 months of ranking well on the engines. We've said you get about 100 targeted visitors a day, so 9 months of ranking well means you get: 
9 months * 30 days per month * 100 visitors per day = 27,000 targeted visitors per year 
$395 (total cost) divided by 27,000 (total # of visitors) = 1.46 cents cost per visitor 
That means you are paying 1.46 cents for each targeted visitor for that year. No other method of marketing has costs that low. The second lowest cost per targeted visitor will be found in the pay-per-click search engines which charge a minimum of 5 cents per targeted visitor. Other methods of advertising such as banner advertising, lists, etc. will cost several times that-- anywhere from 30 cents to $2.00 or more per targeted visitor (see my discussion of these methods elsewhere on this site). 
Therefore, the free search engines are the cheapest, most cost effective way to advertise. More web-based entrepreneurs make money from the search engines than from all other advertising methods combined. 

Q. How hard or easy is it to be profitable with the search engines at .2 cents to 1.49 cents per targeted visitor?
Lets assume you sell a product with a profit margin of $50 per new customer (most entrepreneurs products have higher profit margins-more on that below). At $50 profit per sale and 1.43 cents per targeted visitor your breakeven conversion rate will be: 
$50 (profit) divided by $0.0143 (cost per targeted visitor) = 3417 breakeven conversion rate 
That means that you need to make a sale to 1 in 3417 targeted visitors to break even(or a 0.029% conversion rate). If you can sell one visitor in 3416 targeted visitors or more, you will make a profit. It is safe to say that if your site is at all capable of selling products, you will get a conversion rate better than this. A typical sales conversion rate for a good web site is anywhere from 1 in 75 to 1 in 500 depending on what it sells, the sales process, the content, the sales letter, the price, the site, and other factors. 
Also, your profitability in this equation is the total profitability of getting a new customer. For example, if you sell a vitamin and make $50 profit on the first sale, but 80% of your customers come back to reorder, your total profitability is $250 per new customer (an 80% reorder rate means the average customer buys 5 times so 5 * $50 = $250). Similarly, if you sell a newsletter subscription for a $69 profit and the average person subscribes for 2 years, your average profitability is $69 * 2 or $138 per customer. 

Q. How many targeted visitors can I expect with this method?
That will vary depending on your site's title, description, keywords you go after, etc. Our clients typically get anywhere from 50 to 1000 visitors a day based on their site's title, description, the keywords targeted and other factors. 

Q. How long will it take?
You can be submitted within 48 hours. The speed with which the engines will index your site varies. Most engines take between 2 weeks and 2 months. 

Q. Why do you submit sites to over 3500 search engines if most of the traffic goes through the top 30?
Two reasons. First, the 3500 smaller engines account for about 20% of search engine traffic and that traffic is easy to get. Two, the top 30 engines rely on what's called 'link popularity'. That is, the number of other websites linking to yours. The more links there are to a page, the higher it will rank. By submitting the site to 3500 small engines, the site's link popularity will shoot up. Over 3500 small engines will link to your site, and this will help boost your rankings on the top engines. 

Q. Are all search engine submission services the same?
No. The only companies which offer services comparable to ours charge between $800 to $3000 or more. They will usually optimize your site for 30 to 50 keywords. We will optimize your site for an unlimited number of keywords. The cheaper submission services you find on the net for between $29 and $99 will mass submit your site with off-the-shelf submission software. They will not optimize your site or use any kind of proprietary strategies. These services will typically get your site ranked around below the top 50 rankings-for example, between 4000 to 5000 for your keywords. If your site ranks say 4611 for a given keyword, you will get little or no traffic. 
We encourage you to check and even try our competitors. If you try one of the cheap services, chances are very good you won't be satisfied. If you try one of the competitors who charge $3000 or more, you will have wasted over $2500.

Q. Is there a money-back guarantee?
Yes. We offer a 12 month no questions asked satisfaction guarantee. Only one of our competitors offers a guarantee like ours(he charges $45,000 a year-- see price comparison chart below). Some of our competitors offer guaranteed rankings but only one other one offers a no-questions-asked full money back satisfaction-based guarantee. We can do this because to date, less than .1% of our clients in the past 7 years have ever asked for a refund. 12 months is a good amount of time to see the kind of traffic you'll get. If our past experiences with our clients are any indicator, you'll be so happy with the traffic you get and your sales that you'll want to continue the service. 

Q. Is there a limit on the number of keywords I can go after?
No. Most of the search engines will only look at the first 25 keywords in your metatags on each of your pages. We will submit every page on your site so this gives you the opportunity to go after an unlimited number of keywords. 

Q. How does your service work?
We will submit and resubmit your entire site every 48 hours. This does three things. One, if you make any changes or target any new keywords, we will go after those within 48 hours and the changes will be updated in the search engines as fast as possible. Two, if the search engines ranking algorithms change, we will alter the optimization and submission strategy for your site accordingly to tailor it to the engines. Three, there is always a downward pull on most sites because other companies are trying to take your position at the top of the engines. By reoptimizing and resubmitting your site over and over again every 48 hours, we make sure your site does not move down in rankings. 

Q. Can you guarantee me a specific ranking like #2 on Google for the keyword "horseshoes"?
No, no one in the industry can guarantee you a specific ranking on the free (non-pay-per-click) search engines. Anyone who says they can isn't being completely honest-- legitimate search engine services don't guarantee a specific ranking. There are just too many factors involved in ranking such as the number of competitors you have, your link popularity, your keywords, your metatags, your content, and various others to be able to predict with certainty a specific ranking. Furthermore, the same site will sometimes fluctuate in the rankings-ie. Going from #2 to #5, etc. Therefore, it is impossible for anyone to guarantee you a specific ranking. We do the next best thing which is to completely guarantee your satisfaction with our service or your money back. A satisfaction based no question asked 100% money-back guarantee is the best anyone can do at this time.

Q. Which search engines will I be submitted to?
You will be submitted to all of the top free search engines. These include Yahoo, Google, MSN, AOL, Lycos and others. These engines get lots of searches. Therefore, if your page ranks well, you will be able to get lots of quality targeted traffic for people who do searches on your keywords. In addition, you will also be submitted to about 3500 smaller search engines. These search engines will deliver some traffic to your site because they are much easier to rank high on. 

Q. What are the drawbacks of your service?
There are two. One is that it takes time to get ranked on the engines. Different engines take different lengths of time to re-index their rankings. You will start to see some traffic in the first 4 to 5 days, but most of the engines won't index you until 2 weeks to 2 months after you've been submitted. The other drawback is price. Even though we charge between 13% and 50% of what our competitors charge, our service is still not inexpensive. 

Q. How good are you guys at getting top rankings?
We are among the best in the industry. We know countless tricks about the search engines. For example, that most search engines will only look at the first 25 keywords in your metatags, that the search engines prefer domain names of three words or less, that the search engine spiders will often only look at the beginning of the web page, and on and on and on. There are 62 factors in our optimization and submission process. All of these factors are used to optimize your page to a degree that few of our competitors especially the low price ones are capable of replicating

Q. What if my site can't sell?
Many people are unsure if their site can sell before they get a good amount of quality targeted traffic. Our 12 month, no-questions-asked money back guarantee allows you to see if your site can sell without taking any risk. This is a great way to test to see if your site can sell with no risk. 

Q. How do you guys compare in price to your competitors?
Here is a comparison chart: 
Company name-------------------------------Price--------------------------------# of Keywords 

Search Engine Experts---------------------$395/year-------------------------------Unlimited 
Ezrankings.com-------------------------------$750 setup plus $125/month----10 
Positioned1.com------------------------------$1000-$1500 plus $100/month--30 
CustomerMagnetism.com-----------------$2995/year-----------------------------15
$5995/year-----------------------------45
$9995/year-----------------------------100
TopTenRanking.com------------------------$7,198 setup plus $1,199/month--100 
Reinventbusiness.com---------------------$45,000/year---------------------------Unlimited 
SEOInk.com-----------------------------------$3,500/6 months----------------------25 
Iprospect.com---------------------------------$12,500/month to $40,000/month--Depends on package 

Q. How can you afford to offer such a bargain compared to your competitors?
We can afford to offer a bargain compared to our competitors for several reasons: 
1. Some of our competitors spend upwards of $5 per click on the pay-per-click search engines like Overture to attract business. As of this writing, the top bid for the keyword "Search Engine Optimization" on Overture is $8.56. If we did that, we would have to raise our prices as well. But we rely on our own search engine expertise to drive almost all of our business although we do use other methods as well.
2. Some competitors have large sales staffs that will spend hours on the phone with you trying to convince you to part with over $1000. The way they operate is by making you fill out a form on their website to get a pricing quote. This form asks for your phone number and other personal information. Their price is usually so high that they will not publish it on their website. A few days after you give your phone number, you receive a call and you are then quoted the astronomical price. That's not the way we do business-- we have no sales staff and you will not be getting any sales calls from us.
3. Good old-fashioned greed. We can make a good profit at this price and just because others charge over $800 doesn't mean we need to.
Imagine getting tons of quality traffic and a dozen or more sales a week. Our service will more than pay for itself ten times over. If it doesn't happen, you can cancel, even if you've used our service for 11 months and 2 weeks and there are only 2 weeks of the service left. We will refund all of your money back no questions asked. 

The next step is up to you. All that's left to do now is take action. To get more information free, send a blank email to MoreInformation4 at smartautoresponder.com - You will be sent more information after we get your response.
For more Information Send a request to:  MoreInformation4 at smartautoresponder.com

My best for your success, 

Dan Millman
Vice-President and Software Engineer
Search Engine Experts, Inc.

P.S.: To get more free information, send a blank email to MoreInformation4 at smartautoresponder.com and you'll be sent more information after we get your response.

This article and all information contained herein is Copyright 2002, Search Engine Experts, Inc. 

 [KIYs5]





From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Thu Jul 11 14:43:56 2002
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:43:56 -0700
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
Message-ID: <200207112143.g6BLhut03884@mailserver2.hushmail.com>


On Thursday 11 July 2002 13:32, Tim May wrote:


(Regarding SS and other USG liabilities)


> Charge it...some future generation will pay.

At 02:25 PM 7/11/2002 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>I hope not. Addressing only the SS issue and not other USG debt, I'm 
attempting to organize a nation-wide grassroots movement. On a 
to-be-announced "F-day", every member of the movement will kill a 
designated old fart, one who has long since taken back out of SS 
anything s/he put into the system and is now subsisting solely on SS 
checks and other welfare. Bonus points for killing an old fart who has 
taken much more out of the system than he put in and yet was loudly 
agitating for an increase in benefits to help "the greatest generation, 
who gave so much for their country". Old farts who are still working or 
who are living on saved assets are exempt.

Wrong target.  Suggest you rename it "L-day" for federal Legislator Day.

Members should consider themselves patriots in the true sense.  Since not many citizens are so ideological, I suggest a voluntary redistribution of wealth from the ideological to the families of those patriots who take up the challenge.  Likely participants may be those who have been diagnosed with a terminal illness and have not been economically fortunate (or wasteful enough) to leave their families a meaningful inheretance.

The sooner the redistribution stops the sooner the economic health of the nation will improve.

Loading up the nation with debt and leaving it for the following generations to pay is morally irresponsible. Excessive debt is a means by which governments oppress the people and waste their substance. No nation has a right to contract debt for periods longer than the majority contracting it can expect to live.

"I sincerely believe... that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23 

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople




From rcs at aculei.net  Thu Jul 11 14:46:25 2002
From: rcs at aculei.net (Ryan Sorensen)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:46:25 -0700
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207111020590.24413-100000@eskimo.com>; from eresrch@eskimo.com on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 10:26:25AM -0700
References: <20020711155918.60760.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207111020590.24413-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <20020711144625.B11380@judecca.aculei.net>


* Mike Rosing <eresrch at eskimo.com> [020711]:
> Depends on how they got the source.  They may know it's one of 5
> possible choices because of the person who sent (or received) it.
> If it's just found on a disk in a garbage dump with no connections
> to anyone, it's a bit tougher.  But every algorithm has some statistical
> signature and if you've got enough cipher text you can compare that
> signature with known algorithms to home in on fewer choices.
> 
Do you have any references for this? A quick google search was less than
revealing.

Thanks in advance.

> Patience, persistence, truth,
> Dr. mike

-- 
All that is not strictly forbidden is now mandatory.




From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Wed Jul 10 20:17:52 2002
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:17:52 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
Message-ID: <200207110317.PAA229757@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>


jamesd at echeque.com writes:
>On 6 Jul 2002 at 9:33, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>>Thawte has now announced a round of major price increases.  New
>>cert prices appear to have almost doubled, and renewals have
>>increased more than 50%. While Thawte proclaims this is their
>>first price increase in five years, this comes at a time when we
>>should be seeing *increased* competition and *lower* prices for
>>such virtual products, not such price increases.  But of course,
>>in an effective monopoly environment, it's your way or the
>>highway, so this should have been entirely expected.
>
>IE comes preloaded with about 34 root certificate authorities, and it is easy
>for the end user to add more, to add more in batches. Anyone can coerce open
>SSL to generate any certificates he pleases, with some work.

Both Netscape 6 and MSIE 5 contain ~100 built-in, automatically-trusted CA
certs.

 * Certs with 512-bit keys.

 * Certs with 40-year lifetimes.
 
 * Certs from organisations you've never heard of before ("Honest Joe's Used
   Cars and Certificates").
   
 * Certs from CAs with unmaintained/moribund websites ("404.notfound.com").

These certs are what controls access to your machine (ActiveX, Java, install-
on-demand, etc etc).

  * It takes 600-700 mouse clicks to disable these certs to leave only CAs you
    really trust.

(The above information was taken from "A rant about SSL, oder: die grosse
 Sicherheitsillusion" by Matthias Bruestle, presented at the KNF-Kongress
 2002).

>Why is not someone else issuing certificates?

How many more do you need?

Peter.




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 16:02:11 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:02:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <20020711144625.B11380@judecca.aculei.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207111559260.20469-100000@eskimo.com>


On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Ryan Sorensen wrote:

> Do you have any references for this? A quick google search was less than
> revealing.

There was a discussion (probably several) a few years ago on sci.crypt.
If you point at usenet and try lots of different combinations of keywords
I'm sure you'll find something.  Since I've never done it, I don't have
any direct references, I just remember some of the discussion.  A question
on sci.crypt might get you a lot too.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike





From mdera at celiknet.com  Thu Jul 11 06:03:09 2002
From: mdera at celiknet.com (mdera at celiknet.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:03:09 +0300
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <41308-220027411133930@ttnet>


 




From harveyrj at vt.edu  Thu Jul 11 13:26:06 2002
From: harveyrj at vt.edu (RJ Harvey)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:26:06 -0400
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710162215.03a1ea40@bivens.parrhesia.com>
References: <3D2C574B.24790.3446484@localhost>
 <p05111a07b94ca216bbd0@[66.149.49.6]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711162153.028787f0@mail.vt.edu>

Thanks for the tip!  I just got a new cert from Geotrust,
and it was such an amazing contrast to those I've gotten
from Verisign and Thawte!  They apparently take the verification
info from the whois data on the site, and you really can do
the process from start to finish in 10 minutes or so.

The cert shows that it's issued by Equifax, however.

rj

At 04:31 PM 7/10/2002 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 03:48 PM 7/10/2002 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>>     --
>>On 6 Jul 2002 at 9:33, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>> > Thawte has now announced a round of major price increases.  New
>> > cert prices appear to have almost doubled, and renewals have
>> > increased more than 50%.
>>[...]
>>Why is not someone else issuing certificates?
>
>See <http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/sdata/200206/certca.html> for 
>recent data re SSL certificate market share; Geotrust, at 
><http://www.geotrust.com>, has 11% of the market, and appears (from their 
>web pages; I haven't bought one) to be ready to issue SSL server certs 
>without the torturous document review process which Verisign invented but 
>Thawte managed to make simultaneously more intrusive and less relevant.
>
>
>--
>Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
>
>
>
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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Thu Jul 11 17:25:11 2002
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:25:11 -0700
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <3D2D78FB.6011.1152B27@localhost>
Message-ID: <005a01c2293a$97bb4630$6501a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>


James wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2002 at 1:22, Lucky Green wrote:
> > "Trusted roots" have long been bought and sold on the 
> secondary market 
> > as any other commodity. For surprisingly low amounts, you 
> too can own 
> > a trusted root that comes pre-installed in >95% of all web browsers 
> > deployed.
> 
>  How much, typically?

I'd rather not state the exact figures. A search of SEC filings may or
may not turn up further details.

> And who actually owns these numerous trusted roots? 

I am not sure I understand the question.

--Lucky




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 15:30:34 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:30:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NewsForge: Gilmore's donation will create P2P program to compete with  for-pay RPM update services  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711173015.6040G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/07/11/1443232.shtml?tid=11


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 15:30:52 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:30:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Network Intrusion Detection Systems Fail to Impress (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711173037.6040H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/11/1646203.shtml?tid=172


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 15:31:11 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:31:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Latest UDRP Stupidity: Unix.org, Canadian.biz (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711173102.6040I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/07/11/1320257.shtml?tid=95


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 15:31:32 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:31:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Mercury News | 07/10/2002 | Industry coalition to unveil details for  Internet ID system (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711173116.6040J-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/business/technology/3636976.htm


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 15:32:23 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:32:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: :: New Statesman :: The extinction of species and why it matters more  than you thing (Small World Network) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711173200.6040L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.newstatesman.co.uk/site.php3?newTemplate=NSArticle_NS&newTop=Section%3A+Front+Page&newDisplayURN=200207080015


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 15:33:03 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:33:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Technology Review - Ghana's Digital Dilemma (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711173246.6040N-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/zachary0702.asp


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 16:31:34 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:31:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SSZ Downtime - This weekend
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711182943.6040P-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



There will be a scheduled system upgrade beginning tomorrow evening
through Sunday evening. Reliability will suffer.

Use my Open Forge address for contacts in the interim.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nobody at arancio.net  Thu Jul 11 11:37:52 2002
From: nobody at arancio.net (anonimo arancio)
Date: 11 Jul 2002 18:37:52 -0000
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
Message-ID: <d6fa6a4610b37489dc949e890c1afd1a@arancio.net>


On 12 July 2002, Peter Gutmann <pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> (However, I do think that anyone wanting to compromise your security will use
>  this morning's MSIE hole to do it rather than buying a CA key.  OTOH it'd be a
>  great universal skeleton key for government agencies charged with protecting
>  the world from equestrians).



Damn those equestrians and their great horse sense!




From pashley at storm.ca  Thu Jul 11 15:39:19 2002
From: pashley at storm.ca (Sandy Harris)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:39:19 -0400
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
References: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207111020590.24413-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <3D2E0917.C74E9150@storm.ca>


Mike Rosing wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:
> 
> > suppose a cryptanalysis only has encrypted data-how is
> > going 2 know which is the encrytion algorithm used 2
> > encrypt the data ,so that he can effeciently
> > cryptanalyse if
> >
> > 1:>he has large amount of cipher text only
> > 2:>has large amount of plain text and corresponding
> > cipher text.
> >
> > There r so many encryption algorithms,how does he know
> > which algorithm was used?
> 
> Depends on how they got the source.  They may know it's one of 5
> possible choices because of the person who sent (or received) it.

It may not matter much. Suppose it could be one of a hundred
algorithms, a dozen of which you know how to break. If it is
important and you have the resources, you just try all twelve
breaks. If one works, then you know the algorithm. If not, you
don't care; you know it's one you cannot break, so details are
not important.

Doing this is only at worst 12 times harder than breaking a
single known cipher. If some of your 12 breaks are easy, then
total effort is much less than 12 times the hardest cipher.
When we're talking about 2^40 steps to break a laughably weak
cipher and > 2^100 for a good one, making it 12, or 1000,
times harder is not a very interesting difference.

> If it's just found on a disk in a garbage dump with no connections
> to anyone, it's a bit tougher.

Then you've no reason to think it is important enough to be
worth breaking. You can still try.  

> But every algorithm has some statistical signature

No. Any good algorithm should produce output that looks /exactly/
like random noise, hence they should all look like each other.

This may not be precisely true, but all decent algorithms will
look random enough to make distinguishing quite difficult.

> and if you've got enough cipher text you can compare that
> signature with known algorithms to home in on fewer choices.
> 
> I'm not sure having the plaintext helps much more, but you could
> use random keys to create several ciphertexts with known algorithms and
> compare the statistics just to see if they compare better.
> 
> It's definitly challenging :-)




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 16:55:57 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:55:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <2b20ce2a060a14304034adc4c9f15865@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711183556.6040Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



The problem with your analysis is that it completely misses the impact of
the extended lifetimes (~150 years for anyone alive in or after 2020 that
doesn't die from accident or intent) that are going to accrue. And it's
only going to go up from there. Within 200 years the effective lifetimes
will be irrelevant. The current insurance and investment industry is
toast in about 20 years.

The current economics is based (unknowningly) on 'fast cycle' times
regarding resources and how quickly resources get returned to the pool as
individuals and such die out (it's that 'property right' thing). That is
about to change, so rapidly it will be a eyeblink (something 2-3 years)
compared to anything before.

Coupled with this is the DECREASED interaction between groups that these
technologies foster. They will create a force to fractionalize the
'market' into smaller more goal focused groups.

An additional stressor, and one which all current estimates ignore, is the
3rd World. One day in the very near future we will all, across the globe,
get up one morning and be confronted with a virus based solution for aging
(at least as we currently understand it). If a small group of people (ala
Beggars in Spain) are allowed and the rest are denied then a 'social
divide' (aka All hell breaking out all over at one time) is going to
occur. It will be violent, and it will have a negative effect on the
technology curve. This saving technology might kill us via side effects.

People came together because the technology wasn't there to allow them to
live alone. One day soon technology will reverse this as the level of
technology that is possible, compared to the level of technology in
general, to that available to the individual will become unity.

Why unity? Because technology will not, can not, extend forever. It will
not go on and on. The universe is too filled with 'exclusion rules' to
allow this. Yes the technology is rising exponentialy, because it's
a function of tanh. Thermodynamics will not be denied. [1]

Couple this with the fact that irrespective of the technology level the
Earth doesn't have the resources to support life indefinitely. The Earth
is not indefinite. This has some serious implication of its own.

The most important is that we must get off the planet as a race. Living on
planets that support life should, and will, become gardens where people
visit on vacations. Too precious to waste on individual ego. This implies
that mankinds future is to the stars.

But this very boundary condition limits the time that a planet has to get
off the planet, or drown in its own waste. My estimate is that it's about
200-250 years and we're about 50 years into it. We're not doing very well.

This also raises another potential explanation of why we don't see Roger.
The vast majority (as in asymptotic to 1) don't make it within the 200
year window. The result is a slow slide to eternity with the planet
getting more fucked up on a daily basis.

If you really understood what was going on, you wouldn't give a shit about
Social Security.

Tim's understanding of human psychology is about as swift as his
understanding of the Uncertainty Principle and running time 'backward'. As
usual he confuses ego and individual perspective as some universal. He
just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'observer dependency'. I guess
that's another example of 'May Pole Physics'.

ps I'm back, as I slowly dig out from a two month blizzard of work...

[1] As a complete aside, the realy interesting question here is will when
    it is all said and done, will the maximum technology allow the
    creation of other cosmoses? It would certainly explain why we don't
    see Roger Ramjet scooting around on a daily basis.


On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Anonymous wrote:

> Tim May writes:
> > As everyone should know by now, and probably does, the Social Security 
> > scheme in the U.S. is nothing more than a large Ponzi scheme. Payroll 
> > taxes, amounting to about 15% of income up to some level (ratcheted 
> > upwards every few years), go straight into the General Fund, where the 
> > 34%-39% top tax rate funds and all of the other taxes go into.
> >
> > The General Fund (not its official name...it may not have one) issues 
> > the SS Geheimstatssecuritatwelfarefund an "IOU" for the trillions owed 
> > by the General Fund to the SS G.
> >
> > Those IOUs are not even computed as part of the national debt. (!!) Talk 
> > about using Enron accounting!
> 
> Standard accounting rules are completely inappropriate when looking at
> the situation for an entire country over a period of decades.  By this
> reasoning, a young family borrowing money to buy a house is making a huge
> mistake because it will be in debt to the tune of several years' salary.
> 
> What is overlooked in this analysis is that the family, just starting
> out in the world, can expect increased income over years to come.  In the
> long run, that house will be very affordable based on the expected growth
> in income.  But standard accounting principles do not take into account
> expected future income.
> 
> This shows up most drastically in the case of Social Security, where we
> are supposedly $20 trillion in debt.  What about the income which will
> be used to pay off that debt?  Those figures are not included.
> 
> The fact is, like a young family starting out in the world, we have
> every reason to expect our income levels to rise steadily over future
> decades, just as they have done in the past.  The world is not a static
> place.  Technology and science are improving at an ever-increasing rate.
> These translate into productivity improvements, greater national income,
> and a higher standard of living.
> 
> In fact, with biotech, nanotech, and all the other -techs that are
> expected to become feasible within the next few decades, there is every
> reason to expect that our income will begin growing at unprecedented
> rates.  See some of the predictions at www.kurzweilai.net for examples
> of what the future is likely to bring.  (For a good laugh, get Tim May
> to repeat his prediction about how nanotech will never go anywhere!
> This at a time when you can hardly pick up a business magazine without
> finding another article about this new investment opportunity.  Take it as
> further evidence of his prognosticative abilities, which are demonstrated
> in this thread as well.)
> 
> Against this background, it's pointless to worry about a Social Security
> debt amounting to $200,000 per household over many decades.  By the
> time today's young people are old enough to begin collecting retirement,
> two major changes will have occured:
> 
> First, the world will be a much wealthier place; standards of living will
> likely have more than doubled; technology will have created commonplace
> devices that would be literally priceless today.  For such a world,
> providing the retirement benefits at the levels specified by today's
> laws will be easy and cheap.
> 
> But second, and more importantly, health and longevity will likely have
> increased substantially as well.  By 2040 it's highly unlikely that a 65
> year old man will be facing the kinds of health limitations that a man of
> that age has to deal with today.  Four decades of medical research will
> allow people who are elderly by today's standards to retain considerable
> health and vigor.  There will be no need to retire by 65 if people don't
> want to; they can work productively for many more years.
> 
> Of course these changes will have almost infinite ramifications as they
> affect other parts of society.  The world is likely to be a very different
> place in the next decades, as the pace of progress continues to quicken.
> It's impossible to predict how it will all work out.  But it seems safe
> to say that the world will give people far more choices and opportunities
> than we see today.
> 
> Those people who do choose to retire at a youthful 65 can be easily
> supported by the incredible productivity increases which the working
> population enjoys.  In fact, retirement benefits may well be increased
> far beyond what seems practical today, as by the standards of our future
> wealth, today's comfortable living is seen as the squalor of poverty.
> We have seen this trend going on for many decades, and it is only going
> to increase in the future.
> 
> There are great things ahead, and it's sad to see someone who claims to
> have a clear vision of the future get caught up in such petty concerns
> as Social Security obligations.  There are serious problems ahead, some
> of which were brought up by Bill Joy in his famous article.  But paying
> for Social Security isn't one of them.
> 


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From AlbionZeglin at Total-Security.com  Thu Jul 11 16:23:33 2002
From: AlbionZeglin at Total-Security.com (Albion Zeglin)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:23:33 -0400
Subject: Virtuallizing Palladium
Message-ID: <1026429813.3d2e13759d4b5@mail.spamcop.net>




Similar to DeCSS, only one Palladium chip needs to be reverse engineered and
it's key(s) broken to virtualize the machine.  Simulate a Pentium VI in Java and
all extant code could be accessed.  Similarly, is Microsoft's signing keys were
cracked  then any code could be signed.

If the software needs a real-time connection to the internet though, then
protection could be built into it.  Laptop applications would be vulnerable
until we have pervasive wireless connection.

How many bits do you think MS will use for the keys?

Albion.




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 20:22:20 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:22:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <3D2E0917.C74E9150@storm.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207112014260.10709-100000@eskimo.com>


On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Sandy Harris wrote:

> Doing this is only at worst 12 times harder than breaking a
> single known cipher. If some of your 12 breaks are easy, then
> total effort is much less than 12 times the hardest cipher.
> When we're talking about 2^40 steps to break a laughably weak
> cipher and > 2^100 for a good one, making it 12, or 1000,
> times harder is not a very interesting difference.

Yup.

> No. Any good algorithm should produce output that looks /exactly/
> like random noise, hence they should all look like each other.
>
> This may not be precisely true, but all decent algorithms will
> look random enough to make distinguishing quite difficult.

At the binary level with no headers, "good" algorithms should definitly
look alike.  There's always some data left by the implementation tho,
so in practice you've got some foothold.  But I'm willing to bet that
encrypting megabytes of 0x00000's with the same keys on different ciphers
whould show some kind of statistical foothold.  "looking" like random and
"being" random aren't the same.  Especially if you've got an army of
mathematicians to keep busy :-)

But since I've never actually done it, I don't know how big that army
needs to be.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike





From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Thu Jul 11 18:52:57 2002
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:53:57 -0459
Subject: Weekly Handset Sale!
Message-ID: <200207112121546.SM02044@carlo>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 19:31:48 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:31:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <3D2E0917.C74E9150@storm.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711212410.6040X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Sandy Harris wrote:

> No. Any good algorithm should produce output that looks /exactly/
> like random noise, hence they should all look like each other.

Wrong, not all RNG's have the same statistical output. There is -nothing-
in the requirement for a RNG that requires it (radiation sources are not
equiprobable for example, they're much more 'zero' than 'one'). There may
be boundary conditions on crypto applications that require equiprobable
distributions with respect to characters or strings (that 'k' thing
again, see Knuth). But that doesn't apply to -all- RNG's or their
applications by a long shot.

Also, 'random noise' is redundent. 'Noise' is by -definition- random,
otherwise it wouldn't be noise, it would have a correlation factor, once
you found it you could remove the noise (assuming of course its
computationaly tractible).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From bounce-emh at tigger.emailhello.com  Thu Jul 11 19:10:09 2002
From: bounce-emh at tigger.emailhello.com (Staff)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:10:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thanks For Signing UP!
Message-ID: <20020712021009.358463D3AA@pmail02.impulsive.com>

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From ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 22:18:54 2002
From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:18:54
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207120224.VAA18364@einstein.ssz.com>


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NOW!!!!!
GO TO 
WWW.TRIPLECLIM
AX.COM
OR CALL
1-800-341-4054





From ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 22:21:45 2002
From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:21:45
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207120227.VAA18428@einstein.ssz.com>


TRIPLE CLIMAX FOR 
WOMAN!!!!!!!
INDUCES MULTIPLE 
EROTIC ORGASMS!!!!
MONEY BACK 
GUARANTEE!!!!!
$89.95 + $4.95 S/H

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GO TO 
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AX.COM
OR CALL
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From ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 11 22:24:28 2002
From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:24:28
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207120230.VAA18502@einstein.ssz.com>


TRIPLE CLIMAX FOR 
WOMAN!!!!!!!
INDUCES MULTIPLE 
EROTIC ORGASMS!!!!
MONEY BACK 
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NOW!!!!!
GO TO 
WWW.TRIPLECLIM
AX.COM
OR CALL
1-800-341-4054





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Thu Jul 11 15:22:06 2002
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:22:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
Message-ID: <2b20ce2a060a14304034adc4c9f15865@remailer.privacy.at>


Tim May writes:
> As everyone should know by now, and probably does, the Social Security 
> scheme in the U.S. is nothing more than a large Ponzi scheme. Payroll 
> taxes, amounting to about 15% of income up to some level (ratcheted 
> upwards every few years), go straight into the General Fund, where the 
> 34%-39% top tax rate funds and all of the other taxes go into.
>
> The General Fund (not its official name...it may not have one) issues 
> the SS Geheimstatssecuritatwelfarefund an "IOU" for the trillions owed 
> by the General Fund to the SS G.
>
> Those IOUs are not even computed as part of the national debt. (!!) Talk 
> about using Enron accounting!

Standard accounting rules are completely inappropriate when looking at
the situation for an entire country over a period of decades.  By this
reasoning, a young family borrowing money to buy a house is making a huge
mistake because it will be in debt to the tune of several years' salary.

What is overlooked in this analysis is that the family, just starting
out in the world, can expect increased income over years to come.  In the
long run, that house will be very affordable based on the expected growth
in income.  But standard accounting principles do not take into account
expected future income.

This shows up most drastically in the case of Social Security, where we
are supposedly $20 trillion in debt.  What about the income which will
be used to pay off that debt?  Those figures are not included.

The fact is, like a young family starting out in the world, we have
every reason to expect our income levels to rise steadily over future
decades, just as they have done in the past.  The world is not a static
place.  Technology and science are improving at an ever-increasing rate.
These translate into productivity improvements, greater national income,
and a higher standard of living.

In fact, with biotech, nanotech, and all the other -techs that are
expected to become feasible within the next few decades, there is every
reason to expect that our income will begin growing at unprecedented
rates.  See some of the predictions at www.kurzweilai.net for examples
of what the future is likely to bring.  (For a good laugh, get Tim May
to repeat his prediction about how nanotech will never go anywhere!
This at a time when you can hardly pick up a business magazine without
finding another article about this new investment opportunity.  Take it as
further evidence of his prognosticative abilities, which are demonstrated
in this thread as well.)

Against this background, it's pointless to worry about a Social Security
debt amounting to $200,000 per household over many decades.  By the
time today's young people are old enough to begin collecting retirement,
two major changes will have occured:

First, the world will be a much wealthier place; standards of living will
likely have more than doubled; technology will have created commonplace
devices that would be literally priceless today.  For such a world,
providing the retirement benefits at the levels specified by today's
laws will be easy and cheap.

But second, and more importantly, health and longevity will likely have
increased substantially as well.  By 2040 it's highly unlikely that a 65
year old man will be facing the kinds of health limitations that a man of
that age has to deal with today.  Four decades of medical research will
allow people who are elderly by today's standards to retain considerable
health and vigor.  There will be no need to retire by 65 if people don't
want to; they can work productively for many more years.

Of course these changes will have almost infinite ramifications as they
affect other parts of society.  The world is likely to be a very different
place in the next decades, as the pace of progress continues to quicken.
It's impossible to predict how it will all work out.  But it seems safe
to say that the world will give people far more choices and opportunities
than we see today.

Those people who do choose to retire at a youthful 65 can be easily
supported by the incredible productivity increases which the working
population enjoys.  In fact, retirement benefits may well be increased
far beyond what seems practical today, as by the standards of our future
wealth, today's comfortable living is seen as the squalor of poverty.
We have seen this trend going on for many decades, and it is only going
to increase in the future.

There are great things ahead, and it's sad to see someone who claims to
have a clear vision of the future get caught up in such petty concerns
as Social Security obligations.  There are serious problems ahead, some
of which were brought up by Bill Joy in his famous article.  But paying
for Social Security isn't one of them.




From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Thu Jul 11 08:18:09 2002
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 03:18:09 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
Message-ID: <200207111518.DAA278772@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>


"Lucky Green" <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> writes:

>"Trusted roots" have long been bought and sold on the secondary market as any
>other commodity. For surprisingly low amounts, you too can own a trusted root
>that comes pre-installed in >95% of all web browsers deployed.

I'd heard stories of collapsed dot-coms' keys being auctioned off, that being
the only thing of value the company had left.  It makes the title of Matthias'
paper even more appropriate.

(However, I do think that anyone wanting to compromise your security will use
 this morning's MSIE hole to do it rather than buying a CA key.  OTOH it'd be a
 great universal skeleton key for government agencies charged with protecting
 the world from equestrians).

Peter.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 04:53:20 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 06:53:20 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | The Tangled Web Of Fiber Optics Lines & Gates
Message-ID: <3D2EC32F.C2C23FC4@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/12/0025233.shtml?tid=98
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jdean at lsuhsc.edu  Fri Jul 12 05:23:08 2002
From: Jdean at lsuhsc.edu (Dean, James)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:23:08 -0500
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
Message-ID: <4DDCE8648ECDD11187910060979C535803F81EA1@lsumcbolivar.lsuhsc.edu>


Given cipher output with bytes that look uniformly distributed,
it is easy to write a program that will transform the output
to a file having any desired distribution of bytes.  I've written
a program that makes the output look like transposition of English
text.




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Thu Jul 11 17:41:33 2002
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:41:33 +0800
Subject: Tax
References: <3D2DA871.8F83FD59@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3D2E25BD.D93429AB@mozcom.com>


Right. 

Marc

Michael Motyka wrote:

> >On 10 Jul 2002 at 15:40, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> >> Not necessarily "get" them, but tax them. Believe!
> >
> More like tax any income derived from those assets.




From lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com  Fri Jul 12 08:16:01 2002
From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com (lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:16:01 -0600
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
Message-ID: <OF27FBD850.729E12A2-ON87256BF4.0051DBB0@fl.fdms.firstdata.c
  om>


and just to make sure there is a common understanding regarding SSL cert
operation ... the browser code

1) checks that the SSL server cert can be validated by ANY public key that
is in the browser preloaded list (I haven't verified whether they totally
ignore all of the "cert" part of these preloaded public keys ... things
like expiration date ... that these preloaded public keys are in the
preloaded list appears to be sufficient ... details like the preloaded
public keys happened to be wrappered in these certificate containers is
almost extraneous).

2) validates the signature on the SSL server cert with the corresponding
public key

3) checks if the website domain/host name is the same (or in some cases
similar) to the domain/host name specificed in the SSL server cert. I have
noticed that browsers tend to pretty much ignore the contents of these SSL
server certificates ... things like expiration date ... except the public
key, the domain/host name, and the signature (and the signature only has
real meaning within the context of
the infrastructure associated with the public key in the preloaded list
with the lowest trust/integrity level;
this is analogous to security weakest link ... a bank vault with a 4ft
think vault door doesn't do much good
if the vault has no walls).

4) uses the public key in the SSL server cert to validate communication
with the server.

all of this happens automagically from most users' standpoint (probably
less than one percent of the population even knows that there is such a
thing as a preload list).



pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz on 7/10/2002 at 9:12 pm wrote:

Both Netscape 6 and MSIE 5 contain ~100 built-in, automatically-trusted CA
certs.

 * Certs with 512-bit keys.

 * Certs with 40-year lifetimes.

 * Certs from organisations you've never heard of before ("Honest Joe's
Used
   Cars and Certificates").

 * Certs from CAs with unmaintained/moribund websites ("404.notfound.com").

These certs are what controls access to your machine (ActiveX, Java,
install-
on-demand, etc etc).

  * It takes 600-700 mouse clicks to disable these certs to leave only CAs
you
    really trust.

(The above information was taken from "A rant about SSL, oder: die grosse
 Sicherheitsillusion" by Matthias Bruestle, presented at the KNF-Kongress
 2002).

>Why is not someone else issuing certificates?

How many more do you need?

Peter.




From lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com  Fri Jul 12 08:16:01 2002
From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com (lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:16:01 -0600
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
Message-ID: <OF27FBD850.729E12A2-ON87256BF4.0051DBB0@fl.fdms.firstdata.com>


and just to make sure there is a common understanding regarding SSL cert
operation ... the browser code

1) checks that the SSL server cert can be validated by ANY public key that
is in the browser preloaded list (I haven't verified whether they totally
ignore all of the "cert" part of these preloaded public keys ... things
like expiration date ... that these preloaded public keys are in the
preloaded list appears to be sufficient ... details like the preloaded
public keys happened to be wrappered in these certificate containers is
almost extraneous).

2) validates the signature on the SSL server cert with the corresponding
public key

3) checks if the website domain/host name is the same (or in some cases
similar) to the domain/host name specificed in the SSL server cert. I have
noticed that browsers tend to pretty much ignore the contents of these SSL
server certificates ... things like expiration date ... except the public
key, the domain/host name, and the signature (and the signature only has
real meaning within the context of
the infrastructure associated with the public key in the preloaded list
with the lowest trust/integrity level;
this is analogous to security weakest link ... a bank vault with a 4ft
think vault door doesn't do much good
if the vault has no walls).

4) uses the public key in the SSL server cert to validate communication
with the server.

all of this happens automagically from most users' standpoint (probably
less than one percent of the population even knows that there is such a
thing as a preload list).



pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz on 7/10/2002 at 9:12 pm wrote:

Both Netscape 6 and MSIE 5 contain ~100 built-in, automatically-trusted CA
certs.

 * Certs with 512-bit keys.

 * Certs with 40-year lifetimes.

 * Certs from organisations you've never heard of before ("Honest Joe's
Used
   Cars and Certificates").

 * Certs from CAs with unmaintained/moribund websites ("404.notfound.com").

These certs are what controls access to your machine (ActiveX, Java,
install-
on-demand, etc etc).

  * It takes 600-700 mouse clicks to disable these certs to leave only CAs
you
    really trust.

(The above information was taken from "A rant about SSL, oder: die grosse
 Sicherheitsillusion" by Matthias Bruestle, presented at the KNF-Kongress
 2002).

>Why is not someone else issuing certificates?

How many more do you need?

Peter.




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From dennyae at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 12 19:48:29 2002
From: dennyae at hotmail.com (dennyae at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:48:29 -1600
Subject: Men & Women, Add a little spice to life!                17323
Message-ID: <00003afa7c3c$00002bf2$000003f3@bod.net>

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From ericm at lne.com  Fri Jul 12 10:57:51 2002
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:57:51 -0700
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <200207120714.TAA376787@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>; from
  pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz on Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 07:14:55PM +1200
References: <200207120714.TAA376787@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <20020712105751.A20549@slack.lne.com>


On Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 07:14:55PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> 
> >From a purely economic perspectice, I can't see how this will fly.  I'll pull a
> random figure of $5 out of thin air (well, I saw it mentioned somewhere but
> can't remember the source) as the additional manufacturing cost for the TCPA
> hardware components.  Motherboard manufacturers go through redesigns in order
> to save cents in manufacturing costs, and they're expected to add $5 to their
> manufacturing cost just to help Microsoft manage its piracy problem?

Motherboard makers don't pay for it.  Microsoft pays for it.
Or, Microsoft and Vivendi and Sony and ... all chip in.
Each pays a portion, and reaps the rewards.  Ok, really
Wave or their ilk reaps the rewards as well.

This is what Wave's been trying to sell for years now.
It hasn't flown, yet.  MS, Sony et al. would rather
the chip get paid for by someone else first so
they can use it for free.
But there's a likelyhood that eventually someone will
see where they can make money from it and go with it.
If not with Wave or TCPA, with some other deal.


>Sounds a bit like the SET business model in which the issuing bank got to carry
> all the cost and liability and the aqcuiring bank got all the benfits.

What killed SET wasn't that Visa got greedy and arrogant, although
that certainly didn't help.  They didn't want it to succeed.  It was a
placeholder against Mondex, which looked like it was going ot take off
in the mid 90s..  When Mondex didn't happen, SET got harder and harder
to actually implement (with new fees for participating inthe "standards
body" and new fees for compliance testing, etc. etc)  Visa makes more
money from the current SSL situation because they charge a hefty added
fee for 'card not present' transactions.  SET would have gotten rid of
that, which would have been good if there was a competing payment system
(Mondex), bad if there's a virtual monopoly (what actually happened).

It took me a year or so of going to SET meetings before I figured
out that they really wern't that incompetent at getting a standard
organized, they were fscking it up on purpose.

Eric




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Jul 12 08:18:12 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:18:12 -0400
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD11@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Lucky Green[SMTP:shamrock at cypherpunks.to]
> 
> 
> James wrote:
> > On 11 Jul 2002 at 1:22, Lucky Green wrote:
> > > "Trusted roots" have long been bought and sold on the 
> > secondary market 
> > > as any other commodity. For surprisingly low amounts, you 
> > too can own 
> > > a trusted root that comes pre-installed in >95% of all web browsers 
> > > deployed.
> > 
> >  How much, typically?
> 
> I'd rather not state the exact figures. A search of SEC filings may or
> may not turn up further details.
> 
> > And who actually owns these numerous trusted roots? 
> 
> I am not sure I understand the question.
> 
> --Lucky
> 
I think I do. A 'second hand' root key seems to have some
trust issues - the thing you are buying is the private half
of a public key pair .... but that's just a piece of information.
How can you be sure that, as purchaser, you are the *only*
possessor of the key, and no one else has another copy (the
seller, for example)?

Peter Trei




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 09:56:35 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:56:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Coble-Berman Bill Would Restrict Fair Use (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020712115609.6040m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/07/12/1227217.shtml?tid=123


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 09:56:52 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:56:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | AT&T Concerned About H2K2 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020712115640.6040n-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/12/124203.shtml?tid=99


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 09:59:57 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:59:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Transistors Spin Toward Quantum Computing (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020712115938.6040v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://sci.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18566.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Fri Jul 12 12:44:04 2002
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:44:04 -0700
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <20020712143706.A61535@lightship.internal.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <012c01c229dc$8e2ca670$6501a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>


Adam wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 11:18:12AM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
> A 'second hand' root key seems to have some 
> trust issues 
> | - the thing you are buying is the private half of a public key pair 
> | .... but that's just a piece of information. How can you be 
> sure that, 
> | as purchaser, you are the *only* possessor of the key, and 
> no one else 
> | has another copy (the seller, for example)?
> 
> Who cares?  If I can get a key thats in the main browsers for 
> 90% off, who cares if other people have it?
> 
> I understand that getting the public half of the 2 main 
> browsers will run you about $250k in fees, plus all the setup 
> work.  If I can buy a slightly used Ncipher box whose public 
> key bits are in the browsers for a 10th to a 5th of that, the 
> extra copies of the bits aren't all that worrisome to me.

Precisely. Nor would worrying make any difference, since all CAs
preinstalled into the browser are equal from a user perspective. The
security  your CA, or VeriSign's CA, or anybody's CA can afford their
customer is subject to an upper bound set by the preinstalled CA with
the laxest certificate issuance standards in existence.

In other words, anybody who selects a public CA on a factor other than
price likely fails to understand the trust models that underlie today's
use of Certificate Authorities.

However, $250k will not nearly get you into the major browsers. Getting
into Netscape is easy. You just hand them the cash and the floppy with
your public key. Getting into MSIE is a lot harder. MSFT has never
charged to include a CA's key in MSIE and MSFT does not intend on
charging in the future. But after the root CA bonanza for MSIE 5, MSFT
instituted policy changes.

To get your CA's key included in MSIE, the CA must have passed an SAS 70
audit. (The CA also must offer its certificates to the public).

The infrastructure, policy, staff, and auditing costs of passing such an
audit will run you upwards of $500k.

By the end of the day, getting a new root into the browsers will cost
you about, give or take a few hundred k, $1M.

Which makes the slightly used nCipher box an even better value. :-)

--Lucky Green




From kenkenney at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 12 10:11:22 2002
From: kenkenney at hotmail.com (QCSBS-AMERICA)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:11:22 -0400
Subject: ==> (( cypherpunks Try "Qcsbs" $1,500+/  Wk,  Millionaire Cash System, Change Your Life !!! )) <==
Message-ID: <200207121718.MAA31427@einstein.ssz.com>

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From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 12 13:32:23 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:32:23 -0700
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <20020712201333.A30875@exeter.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <78C7B2CF-95D6-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, July 12, 2002, at 12:13  PM, Adam Back wrote:

> Tim describes how US national debt may be as high as US$200k /
> household.
>
> Now some interesting question related questions are:
>
> - who is that debt owed to?

A partial list (not in any particular order, especially not necessarily 
in order of amount of overall indebtness):

* holders of U.S. Treasury bonds, T-bills, and other U.S. 
Treasury-backed instruments

* pensions for government employees (other than the parts of government 
which opted out, a provision not offered to any non-government folks!). 
Notably, military pensions, which have been getting more and more 
lucrative.

* the "default fraction" (estimated) of loan guarantees and loan 
insurance for programs like the Student Loan Guaranty program, mortgages 
for vets and other favored persons, etc. (Note that we are _not_ 
including the overall loan amount, only the fraction that is very likely 
to be a debt to the government...actuarial and risk assessors have 
pretty good models.)

(By the way, as an aside, this practice of co-signing for a loan, of 
agreeing to be the repayer of last resort, is humorously called "suicide 
with a fountain pen.")

* Social Security. A massive overhang, not carried on the books.

* promises made to other governments to keep their coffers full in 
exchange for siding with the U.S., or not blowing up as many of our 
airliners, or not launching rusting nukes at us, or not sending millions 
of immigrants to our shores

(These promises could in fact be broken. And they should be. The U.S. 
should pull its troops out of Europe--57 years after the end of WW 
II--and out of South Korea and of course out of the Mideast. Israel, 
Egypt, Jordan, and all of the other basket cases should be cut off. If 
Jews in America want to keep bailing out Israel's economy, fine. But 
none of my money or anyone else's should be coerced out of them.)

>
> - what proportion of current year US tax revenues go to service that
> debt?

Between 20 and 35 %, depending on the cost of money, smoothed over 
several years.

This is only for the officially counted part of the debt.

>
> some of the debt may not be being serviced (no interest paid and just
> left to increase -- eg pensions etc, but this just makes the problem
> worse as the future debt will grow faster with no interest paid).

This is the same reason to vote against _most_ bond issues. While there 
are legitimate uses of debt, and for spreading repayments over the 
useful lifetime of a school, prison, or whatever, too often a bond issue 
is advertised as not costing the taxpayer. This results in building that 
is not needed, or in outright fraud. (As in many countries, where bonds 
and lotteries are set up to build nuclear reactors in the jungle that 
are never really intended to be started up.)

>
> Some completely back of the envelope calculation: if the average US
> household has an annual income of US$50k, and the interest rate on the
> US national debt is 5%, that interest payments represent 20% of the
> average US households gross income.  But isn't 20% fairly close to
> what the average household's direct tax rate?

Don't forget corporate taxes.

The official national debt is $67K per household (100 million 
households). 5% of that is $3350, which is about 6.7% of the $50K per 
year figure you cite. Which is about 33% of the 20% tax figure you cite.

If one computes the _true_ national debt, the one I talked about, then 
the numbers are roughly as you describe.

The actual national debt is as if every household were paying for a 
second $200K house on top of the one they now live in or rent. (And 
despite the figures on current home prices, which are at the margin, the 
average household does not pay for a $200K mortgage.)

Looking at the demographics of the work force, as the "pig in the 
python" of the Boomers move into retirement, their earning contribution 
to income taxes will drop sharply. Will it be made up by having skilled 
younger people, Hispanics, Taiwanese, Indians, etc. paying these costs?

Personally, I doubt it. I don't think the 20-year-old kids of today are 
going to have the job skills to make the backbreaking payments 
necessary. Nor should they. Why should they be indentured servants to a 
generation which just said "Charge it!"


>
> How close is the US to reaching a standstill where 100% of collectible
> tax revenue goes to fund debt service, and all current spending comes
> from increased future debt?

If unfunded liabilities are counted, which they should be, we are 
approaching that point now.

(By not counting them, we are setting up a future where those 
20-year-olds are paying 80% of their income in taxes. I don't think 
that's viable, for multiple reasons.)

By the way, there are already many countries in the world already in the 
situation where all of the tax revenues go into servicing the national 
debt, and where that debt is still compounding annually.


--Tim May

"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com  Fri Jul 12 11:09:25 2002
From: bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com (Tammy)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:09:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dental Floss Up The Butt Crack
Message-ID: <20020712180925.502449453C@pmail08.impulsive.com>

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From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 12 14:10:18 2002
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <78C7B2CF-95D6-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020712211018.5637.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>


> - who is that debt owed to?

You never, ever, collect debt from one that has a bigger gun than you do.

'debt' as a notion has meaning only between equal parties.

Everything's OK and taken care for, no need for panic or doomsday predictions.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 12 14:10:45 2002
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <78C7B2CF-95D6-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020712211045.82360.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>


> - who is that debt owed to?

You never, ever, collect debt from one that has a bigger gun than you do.

'debt' as a notion has meaning only between equal parties.

Everything's OK and taken care for, no need for panic or doomsday predictions.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com




From ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 14:35:43 2002
From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:35:43
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207121841.NAA32552@einstein.ssz.com>


TRIPLE CLIMAX FOR 
WOMAN!!!!!!!
INDUCES MULTIPLE 
EROTIC ORGASMS!!!!
MONEY BACK 
GUARANTEE!!!!!
$89.95 + $4.95 S/H

TRIPLE YOUR ORGASMS 
NOW!!!!!
GO TO 
WWW.TRIPLECLIM
AX.COM
OR CALL
1-800-341-4054





From adam at homeport.org  Fri Jul 12 11:37:06 2002
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:37:06 -0400
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD11@exna07.securitydy
  namics.com>; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at
  11:18:12AM -0400
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD11@exna07.securitydyn
  amics.com>
Message-ID: <20020712143706.A61535@lightship.internal.homeport.org>


On Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 11:18:12AM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
| > I'd rather not state the exact figures. A search of SEC filings may or
| > may not turn up further details.
| > 
| > > And who actually owns these numerous trusted roots? 
| > 
| > I am not sure I understand the question.
| > 
| > --Lucky
| > 
| I think I do. A 'second hand' root key seems to have some
| trust issues - the thing you are buying is the private half
| of a public key pair .... but that's just a piece of information.
| How can you be sure that, as purchaser, you are the *only*
| possessor of the key, and no one else has another copy (the
| seller, for example)?

Who cares?  If I can get a key thats in the main browsers for 90% off,
who cares if other people have it?

I understand that getting the public half of the 2 main browsers will
run you about $250k in fees, plus all the setup work.  If I can buy a
slightly used Ncipher box whose public key bits are in the browsers
for a 10th to a 5th of that, the extra copies of the bits aren't all
that worrisome to me.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Jul 12 14:40:56 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:40:56 -0700
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <E17T6rm-0005O9-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <0C5C37DD-95E0-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, July 12, 2002, at 04:16  PM, John Young wrote:

> Bear in mind that the holders of US debts do not want the debts
> paid, only the interest, and in fact want both to increase as they
> have consistently since the US government went into hock.

Most such debts have finite lifetimes. For example, the 10-year Treasury 
note, which is currently the de facto standard. At the end of 10 years, 
it's done with, period. The principal is repaid (unless the debt was of 
the kind that pays an interest rate and a principal reduction part). Now 
the debt holders may well buy other instruments, and usually do, but it 
isn't an especially accurate or useful model to say "holders of US debts 
paid, only the interest."

> Gigantic debts by well to do are signs of accomplishment and no
> wealthy person wants to be large-debt-free.

I know many wealth people, and this is not so. (*) Most of them have no 
significant large debts. Many of them have mortgages on houses, because 
of the way the IRS subsidizes mortgages over other kinds of debts.

"Net worth" is this: assets minus debts. This is why "high net worth 
individuals" are so characterized.

(* The high net worth individuals I know range from people with several 
billion in assets, down to tens of millions (I believe, but most don't 
say publically or to me), and on down to the few millions or less.)

> The biggest debtors are the super rich, and their combined debts
> exceed that of the US Government. Such debts are customarily
> called investments purchased with borrowed money or other
> forms of investments.

Current margin requirements are about 50%.

When stocks or other assets drop, margin calls result. Bernie Ebbers got 
a big one a year or two ago on Worldcom.

I've known folks who have gotten margin calls, and it isn't pretty.

Most folks I know, the wealthy ones, tend to keep their margin debts at 
a small fraction of the allowable maximum.



--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 14:44:32 2002
From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:44:32
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207121850.NAA32648@einstein.ssz.com>


TRIPLE CLIMAX FOR 
WOMAN!!!!!!!
INDUCES MULTIPLE 
EROTIC ORGASMS!!!!
MONEY BACK 
GUARANTEE!!!!!
$89.95 + $4.95 S/H

TRIPLE YOUR ORGASMS 
NOW!!!!!
GO TO 
WWW.TRIPLECLIM
AX.COM
OR CALL
1-800-341-4054





From bounce-emh at tigger.emailhelo.com  Fri Jul 12 11:54:33 2002
From: bounce-emh at tigger.emailhelo.com (Amber)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:54:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FWD: this sparked my love life
Message-ID: <20020712185433.801522113E@pmail21.impulsive.com>

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From in-forum at in-forum.com  Fri Jul 12 13:52:57 2002
From: in-forum at in-forum.com (IN-FORUM)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:52:57 -0500
Subject: Welcome!
Message-ID: <200207122053.g6CKrYU02872@mercury.i29.net>

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From bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com  Fri Jul 12 13:09:40 2002
From: bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com (Jo Ann)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ALABAMA BUCK TEETH
Message-ID: <20020712200940.35343132625@pmail04.impulsive.com>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jul 12 16:16:09 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:16:09 -0700
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <20020712201333.A30875@exeter.ac.uk>
References: <358D242E-94F4-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <200207111109.36204.sfurlong@acmenet.net>
  <358D242E-94F4-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <E17T6rm-0005O9-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Bear in mind that the holders of US debts do not want the debts
paid, only the interest, and in fact want both to increase as they
have consistently since the US government went into hock.

A prime reason holders of US debt fear other countries defaulting
on their debt is that that might become a promising political campaign
in the US where debt of all kinds are glorified and where unpaid debts
are the greatest sins so long as the debts are owed by the USG and
credit card, family home and car, debtors.

Gigantic debts by well to do are signs of accomplishment and no
wealthy person wants to be large-debt-free. Instead what is wanted is
a top-notch credit rating, that is desirable to be an debtor who can
call for whatever is needed at the moment without expending the
small amount of cash on hand, which is called pocket change.

The biggest debtors are the super rich, and their combined debts
exceed that of the US Government. Such debts are customarily
called investments purchased with borrowed money or other
forms of investments. These superwealthy schemes based on
superimpositions are very large Ponzi schemes, nearly all of 
which rely up government underwriting either by permissable
law or by assurance of bail-out -- not surprisingly as a last
resort to claim national security is at stake, or even less
surprising, require war to thin the complainers of small
debts and to boost war industry replenishment of large
fortunes. Nothing peculiar about the US doing this, for it
is what governments were invented for: to assure continued
well-being for the favored while promising a chicken in every
for the starving and promising as well that the starving must
work for the chicken freely stolen by the wealthy.

Capitalism didn't begin this dreadful state of affairs, it merely
copied more brazen versions and cloaked its intentions with
simulated democracy, sometimes smirkingly called free market 
forces by its beneficiaries. 

Getting the small debtors to lust after Wall Street is  nothing 
compared to getting them drunk with patriotism so they'll send 
their idiot off-spring to kill those hungry like themselves while 
George slurps Hagen-Daas from Condi's navel.

The key to success is getting the really smart hungry people
to feed your mind and gut and wipe your ass while believing like 
national security teams they are really in charge. How do you
do that? The successful claim it was hard work and luck, and
anyone can do it. Haw. Haw. Haw.




From heald at time-2-win.com  Fri Jul 12 17:09:09 2002
From: heald at time-2-win.com (Heald)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 17:09:09 2002 -0700
Subject: Heald College: Your Career Begins Here. Now!
Message-ID: <34383058.130053@mailhost>


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Time-2-Win
This has been brought to you by Time-2-Win.com. You are receiving this offer because you signed up with us directly or through one of our affiliates. If you feel this email has reached you by mistake, please accept our apologies. If you no longer wish to receive offers from Time-2-Win.com, please visit http://www.time-2-win.com/unsubscribe.jsp to unsubscribe yourself from our databases. 

The email address that was used for this offer is: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com 































cypherpunks#einstein.ssz.com

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From bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com  Fri Jul 12 14:31:58 2002
From: bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:31:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: THE DROOLING COOTER
Message-ID: <20020712213158.5075741C5F@pmail04.impulsive.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 15:41:28 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:41:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | A Lawyer's View on the OpenGL Patent Mess (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020712174104.6040B-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/12/1314244.shtml?tid=155


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 15:42:18 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:42:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Roll Call: Byrd to fight homeland bill (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020712174207.6040D-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.rollcall.com/pages/news/00/2002/07/news0711a.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 15:42:30 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:42:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New Scientist - Hunt for hidden web messages goes on (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020712174221.6040E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992543


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From listupdate at deals4recruiters.com  Fri Jul 12 15:31:04 2002
From: listupdate at deals4recruiters.com (List Update)
Date: 12 Jul 2002 18:31:04 -0400
Subject: Deals4Recruiters List Update
Message-ID: <200207122237.RAA03485@einstein.ssz.com>


Dear Recruiting Professional,

Deals4Recruiters respects your privacy. You are receiving this e-mail 
because you are a member in the Deals4Recruiters marketing network and are 
therefore included in our mailing list.

Deals4Recruiters is dedicated to bringing you information regarding the 
best recruiting services, applications and products at the best available 
prices.  Many of the services we represent offer FREE job posting, FREE 
resume searching, FREE trials of recruiting software, etc.

Additionally we bring you information about the newest technologies that 
have been developed to enhance the professional recruiter's ability to work 
smarter, not harder.

If you no longer wish to received information specific to the recruiting 
industry please use the following remove instructions:

	Go to http://www.deals4recruiters.com/removeme.html
	Enter this e-mail address:  cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
	Enter this confirmation number:  838380

Sincerely,

The Deals4Recruiters Marketing Network





From listupdate at deals4recruiters.com  Fri Jul 12 15:31:04 2002
From: listupdate at deals4recruiters.com (List Update)
Date: 12 Jul 2002 18:31:04 -0400
Subject: Deals4Recruiters List Update
Message-ID: <200207122231.g6CMVBo8011334@ak47.algebra.com>


Dear Recruiting Professional,

Deals4Recruiters respects your privacy. You are receiving this e-mail 
because you are a member in the Deals4Recruiters marketing network and are 
therefore included in our mailing list.

Deals4Recruiters is dedicated to bringing you information regarding the 
best recruiting services, applications and products at the best available 
prices.  Many of the services we represent offer FREE job posting, FREE 
resume searching, FREE trials of recruiting software, etc.

Additionally we bring you information about the newest technologies that 
have been developed to enhance the professional recruiter's ability to work 
smarter, not harder.

If you no longer wish to received information specific to the recruiting 
industry please use the following remove instructions:

	Go to http://www.deals4recruiters.com/removeme.html
	Enter this e-mail address:  cypherpunks at algebra.com
	Enter this confirmation number:  838378

Sincerely,

The Deals4Recruiters Marketing Network





From tjolley at swbell.net  Fri Jul 12 16:39:50 2002
From: tjolley at swbell.net (Jolley)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:39:50 -0500
Subject: [dvd-discuss] Technology Admin comments
Message-ID: <3D2F68C6.7839DE3A@swbell.net>

The US Dept. of Commerce Technology Administration is inviting the
public to make comments for the upcomming Workshop on Digital
Entertainment and Rights Management.  The workshop will be held on
July 17.


http://www.ta.doc.gov/comments/comments.htm

Co-chairs Bond and Rogan will be joined by:

- Jack Valenti, of Motion Picture Association of America
- Rhett Dawson, of Information Technology Industry Council
- Joe Tasker, of Information Technology Association of America
- Mitch Glazier, Record Industry Association of America
- Jon Potter, Digital Media Association
- Stewart Vendery, Vivendi Universal
- Preston Padden, Disney
- Mike Miron, ContentGuard
- Rick Lane, News Corp
- Gordon Lyon, NIST
- Rob Reid, Listen.com
- Phillip Maggi, Computer Systems Policy Project
- Tim Sheehy, IBM
- Andrew Moss, Microsoft
- Ted Cohen, EMI
- Doug Comer, Intel
- Bob Schwartz, McDermott, Will & Emery (representing CEA
  and the Home Recording Rights Coalition.)

They are asking for comments on the following:

  * The effectiveness of efforts to pursue technical standards or
    solutions that are designed to provide a more predictable and
    secure environment for digital transmission of copyrighted
    material;
  * Major obstacles facing an open commercial exchange of digital
    content; 
  * What a future framework for success might entail; 
  * Current consumer attitude towards online entertainment.




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Jul 12 17:03:19 2002
From: measl at mfn.org (Alif The Terrible)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:03:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Nov-L: Urgent! Action Now! (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0207121901231.24311-100000@greeves.mfn.org>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:03:42 -0700
From: Nora Callahan <nora at november.org>
To: november-l at november.org
Subject: Nov-L: Urgent! Action Now!

For those of  you not on a large number of listservs, here is a
dangerous new bill.

Steve Gotzler, National Lawyers Guild and November Coalition

Subject: [asa] Stop Senate attacks on marijuana events

======================================================================

PROPOSED LAW COULD SUBJECT YOU TO 20 YEARS IN PRISON
Stop the Senate From Banning Marijuana Rallies and Other Events

Take Action at: http://ga1.org/campaign/rave
[Please direct any questions to bpiper at drugpolicy.org.]
The Senate is poised to pass legislation that would give federal
prosecutors new powers to shut down hemp festivals, marijuana rallies
and other events and punish business owners and activists for hosting
or promoting them. The proposed law would also potentially subject
people to enormous federal sentences if some of their guests smoked
marijuana at their party or barbecue. It would also effectively make
it a federal crime to rent property to medical marijuana patients and
their caregivers.

The bill, known as the Reducing American's Vulnerability to Ecstasy
Act (RAVE Act), was just introduced in the Senate on June 18th and has
already passed the Senate Judiciary Committee. It is moving VERY
rapidly and could be passed by the Senate as early as this week. While
it purports to be aimed at ecstasy and other club drugs, it gives the
federal government enormous power to fine and imprison supporters of
marijuana legalization, even if they've never smoked marijuana.

It is urgent that you take action today!

ACTIONS TO TAKE

**  Fax your Senators today. Go to http://ga1.org/campaign/rave
    to find out more.

**  Forward this alert to your friends, family, and co-workers.

**  After you fax your Senators, please follow it up with phone calls.
    Tell them you just faxed them a letter in opposition to S. 2633,
    the Reducing American's Vulnerability to Ecstasy Act. Tell them
    that innocent business owners shouldn't be punished for the crimes
    of their customers. Tell them this bill has dangerous anti-civil
    liberties provisions that they need to be aware of, and this bill
    deserves serious debate.

You can contact your Senators through the Capitol Switchboard at
202-224-3121. To find out who your Senators are go to:
http://www.senate.gov/senators/senator_by_state.cfm

MORE INFORMATION

The Senate is considering legislation that would give federal
prosecutors new powers to shut down raves, marijuana rallies and other
events they don't like and punish businessmen and women for hosting or
promoting them. The bill (S. 2633), also known as the Reducing
American's Vulnerability to Ecstasy Act (RAVE Act), is moving very
rapidly and could be considered by the full Senate as early as this
week. (A similar bill is also pending in the House.)

S. 2633, sponsored by Senators Durbin (D-IL), Hatch (R-UT), Grassley
(R-IA) and Leahy (D-VT), expands the so-called "crack house statute"
to allow the federal government to fine or imprison businessmen and
women if customers sell or use drugs on their premises or at their
events. Property owners, promoters, and event coordinators could be
fined hundreds of thousands of dollars or face up to twenty years in
federal prison if they hold raves or other events on their property.
If the bill becomes law, property owners may be too afraid to rent or
lease their property to groups holding hemp festivals or putting on
all-night dance parties, effectively stifling free speech and banning
raves and other musical events.

The new law would also make it a federal crime to temporarily use a
place for the purpose of using any illegal drug. Thus, anyone who used
drugs in their own home or threw an event (such as a party or
barbecue) in which one or more of their guests used drugs could
potentially face a $250,000 fine and years in federal prison. The bill
also effectively makes it a federal crime to rent property to medical
marijuana patients and their caregivers, giving the federal government
a new weapon in its war on AIDS and cancer patients who use marijuana
to relieve their suffering.

Health advocates worry that the bill will endanger our nation's youth.
If enacted, licensed and law-abiding business owners may stop hosting
raves or other events that federal authorities don't like, out of fear
of massive fines and prison sentences. Thus, the law would drive raves
and other musical events further underground and away from public
health and safety regulations. It would also discourage business
owners from enacting smart harm-reduction measures to protect their
customers. By insinuating that selling bottled water and offering
"cool off" rooms is proof that owners and promoters know drug use is
occurring at their events, this bill may make business owners too
afraid to implement such harm-reduction measures, and the safety of
our kids will suffer.

The RAVE Act punishes businessmen and women for the crimes of their
customers and is unprecedented in U.S. history. The federal government
can't even keep drugs out of prisons, yet it seeks to punish business
owners for failing to keep people from carrying drugs onto their
premises. If this bill passes, federal authorities will have the
ability to scare business owners away from using or renting their
property for marijuana festivals, as well as any other "politically
incorrect" event.

For more information on this bill, go to http://thomas.loc.gov/ and
under "bill number" search for S2633.

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-- 

Nora Callahan
The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit
organization, your gifts are tax deductible. 

You can send your donation to: 
The November Coalition  
795 South Cedar 
Colville, WA 99114

Visit our website at: http://www.november.org
--------
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To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a
message to november-L-request at november.org containing the command
"unsubscribe"




From cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 12 04:23:16 2002
From: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com (Wendy Fortune)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:23:16 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks,HGH: Treatments to reverse aging, enhance
Message-ID: <MAIL-IrDEtdbMe1Usi0000292d6@mail-i.cswa.com>

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From bounce-emh at tigger.emailhelo.com  Fri Jul 12 17:03:44 2002
From: bounce-emh at tigger.emailhelo.com (Lily)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:03:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A great unsecured credit card
Message-ID: <20020713000344.9942F48ABB@pmail14.impulsive.com>

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From adam at cypherspace.org  Fri Jul 12 12:13:33 2002
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:13:33 +0100
Subject: Rant: The U.S. facing the largest financial collapse ever
In-Reply-To: <358D242E-94F4-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 10:32:43AM -0700
References: <200207111109.36204.sfurlong@acmenet.net>
  <358D242E-94F4-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20020712201333.A30875@exeter.ac.uk>


Tim describes how US national debt may be as high as US$200k /
household.  

Now some interesting question related questions are:

- who is that debt owed to?

- what proportion of current year US tax revenues go to service that
debt?

some of the debt may not be being serviced (no interest paid and just
left to increase -- eg pensions etc, but this just makes the problem
worse as the future debt will grow faster with no interest paid).

Some completely back of the envelope calculation: if the average US
household has an annual income of US$50k, and the interest rate on the
US national debt is 5%, that interest payments represent 20% of the
average US households gross income.  But isn't 20% fairly close to
what the average household's direct tax rate?

How close is the US to reaching a standstill where 100% of collectible
tax revenue goes to fund debt service, and all current spending comes
from increased future debt?

Adam




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Jul 12 20:27:33 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:27:33 -0700
Subject: Microsoft censors Newsweek - and new version of TCPA FAQ
In-Reply-To: <b5de0c8dc0fdb5aa217d794731ccc438@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <E17TAn5-0005j9-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>


Ross said MSNBC had pulled the Palladium story, not Newsweek. 
Other Levy stories remain available on MSNBC. A search on
MSNBC for "Palladium" produces Steven Levy's chat about
Palladium:

  http://www.msnbc.com/m/nw/talk/archive.asp?lt=062502_levy

Still, it may policy for MSNBC to pull Newsweek stories after a few
days that don't contribute to the MS shine.

Further still, shine thine eyes on this line-up of TCPA wiseguys:


From SuperSpecials_____r-7552100-212 at mm23.com  Fri Jul 12 13:32:50 2002
From: SuperSpecials_____r-7552100-212 at mm23.com (Super Specials)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:32:50 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, Teach your dog how to talk!
Message-ID: <200207122038.PAA01343@einstein.ssz.com>

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From emailaddresses98037 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 12 17:55:06 2002
From: emailaddresses98037 at yahoo.com (Karin Brice)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:55:06 -0400
Subject: "Free Online Payment Account - Plus a $5.00 Sign Up Bonus"
Message-ID: <200207130346.WAA07425@einstein.ssz.com>



 Dear  cypherpunks at ssz.com

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type "remove" in the "subject" line and you will be removed from any 
future mailings.




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Jul 12 18:22:20 2002
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:22:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: S-DART 
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0207122120260.5450-100000@hcs.harvard.edu>


This seems to be related to the "Stego Watch" program sold by Wetstone
Technologies. Does anyone have more information about it? I've found
citations for a few papers on it, but none are online. I'll go to the
library later, but in the meantime has anyone read these papers or had
experience with the system in action?

How does it compare to Provos' stegdetect?

-David Molnar




From info at coppercouncil.co.uk  Fri Jul 12 14:03:10 2002
From: info at coppercouncil.co.uk (Look at This)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 22:03:10 +0100
Subject: Are YOU looking for a new website, to develop an existing website, for cheaper hosting or domain names?
Message-ID: <002e01c229e7$88a14610$0100a8c0@nth.local>

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From nokia5110 at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 12 19:38:15 2002
From: nokia5110 at hotmail.com (nokia5110 at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 22:38:15 -0400
Subject: New teeth bleach formula sold by dentist           11176
Message-ID: <0000629d6f7b$00007686$00007c28@mx14.hotmail.com>

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From 771656 at concentrated-pheromone.com  Fri Jul 12 20:38:32 2002
From: 771656 at concentrated-pheromone.com (Concentrated Pheromone Inc.)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 22:38:32 -0500
Subject: Scientifically attract GIRLS (and GUYS!)
Message-ID: <200207130338.WAA07189@einstein.ssz.com>

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From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Jul 12 16:20:21 2002
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 01:20:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Microsoft censors Newsweek - and new version of TCPA FAQ
Message-ID: <b5de0c8dc0fdb5aa217d794731ccc438@dizum.com>


Ross Anderson charged that Microsoft "censored" Newsweek because the
Stephen Levy article disappeared.  Actually Newsweek moves articles to
their for-pay archives after a week.  You can still find a pointer to
it by going to www.newsweek.com and entering Palladium in the "Search
the archives" box.

Will Ross Anderson withdraw his charge that this was an act of censorship
by Microsoft?




From unsubs-e707d02af0-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Fri Jul 12 20:39:30 2002
From: unsubs-e707d02af0-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com (Special Deals)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 03:39:30 +0000
Subject: Teach your dog how to talk!
Message-ID: <200207130345.WAA07366@einstein.ssz.com>

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From pharmacy at runbox.com  Sat Jul 13 04:21:34 2002
From: pharmacy at runbox.com (Cleason LeVine)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 05:21:34 -0600
Subject: Viagra,Phentermine,Xenical
Message-ID: <200207131456.JAA16637@einstein.ssz.com>

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From do1cubs7j744 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 13 18:19:00 2002
From: do1cubs7j744 at hotmail.com (Katelyn)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:19:00 -1900
Subject: Toners and inkjet cartridges for less....                      WRMP
Message-ID: <000049be3be3$00003266$00000da9@mx09.hotmail.com>

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From pitster265185943 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 13 03:24:13 2002
From: pitster265185943 at hotmail.com (CLAUDIA)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:24:13 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <W2K-CORREOxJK5OuLID00009188@w2k-correo.tiendaleon.com.ar>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 06:50:26 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:50:26 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | OpenBSD 3.0 Honeypot Whitepaper
Message-ID: <3D303021.42372D8A@ssz.com>


http://bsd.slashdot.org/bsd/02/07/13/0346209.shtml?tid=172
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 07:09:03 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:09:03 -0500
Subject: Yahoo! News - U.N. Reaches Deal on War Crimes Court
Message-ID: <3D30347F.478358B8@ssz.com>


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020712/ap_on_re_us/un_international_court_33&printer=1
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 07:10:55 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:10:55 -0500
Subject: FORTUNE - Street Life - Breaking Records--For Bankruptcies
Message-ID: <3D3034EF.560EB40B@ssz.com>


http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=208698
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 13 09:39:36 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207111020590.24413-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <20020713163936.12958.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

thanx for the replies.
one doubt escpecially on this.
>
>But every algorithm has some 
>statistical
>signature and if you've got enough cipher text you
>can compare that
>signature with known algorithms to home in on fewer
>choices.

can u pls explain how they have statistical
signatures,pls-


 may be using SPN's, i have tried ANSI X9.17 key
generation with GOST-it did have a negligably small
skew-it makes me wonder what statistical signature
they have.The negligable skew is a weakness but not
high enough to compramise the security of the key used
from the ANSI x9.17 key gen method.
pls explain.
thank u veru much.

Regards Data.




--- Mike Rosing <eresrch at eskimo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:
> 
> > suppose a cryptanalysis only has encrypted
> data-how is
> > going 2 know which is the encrytion algorithm used
> 2
> > encrypt the data ,so that he can effeciently
> > cryptanalyse if
> >
> > 1:>he has large amount of cipher text only
> > 2:>has large amount of plain text and
> corresponding
> > cipher text.
> >
> > There r so many encryption algorithms,how does he
> know
> > which algorithm was used?
> 
> Depends on how they got the source.  They may know
> it's one of 5
> possible choices because of the person who sent (or
> received) it.
> If it's just found on a disk in a garbage dump with
> no connections
> to anyone, it's a bit tougher.  But every algorithm
> has some statistical
> signature and if you've got enough cipher text you
> can compare that
> signature with known algorithms to home in on fewer
> choices.
> 
> I'm not sure having the plaintext helps much more,
> but you could
> use random keys to create several ciphertexts with
> known algorithms and
> compare the statistics just to see if they compare
> better.
> 
> It's definitly challenging :-)
> 
> Patience, persistence, truth,
> Dr. mike
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com




From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 13 09:48:08 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:48:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020711212410.6040X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20020713164808.14441.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

eer..I think we need a defenition of an Rng & Prng
that every 1 should agree on.

would this help?

RNG & PRNG
----------------

1:>A RNG has an infinite period where as a PRNG has a
defenite period after which the sequence will repeat.
Atmospheric noise,Radiation decay are examples of
RNG's.(Difference)

2:>An RNG & PRNG should pass a series of radomness
tests. (Similarity)

3:>For the same set of input parameters,a RNG always
give a different output.
A PRNG always gives the same set of outputs for the
same input parameters (Difference) 


would any 1 also like 2 review

http://www.ircsuper.net/~neo/prng.html
thanx.

Regards Data.





--- Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Sandy Harris wrote:
> 
> > No. Any good algorithm should produce output that
> looks /exactly/
> > like random noise, hence they should all look like
> each other.
> 
> Wrong, not all RNG's have the same statistical
> output. There is -nothing-
> in the requirement for a RNG that requires it
> (radiation sources are not
> equiprobable for example, they're much more 'zero'
> than 'one'). There may
> be boundary conditions on crypto applications that
> require equiprobable
> distributions with respect to characters or strings
> (that 'k' thing
> again, see Knuth). But that doesn't apply to -all-
> RNG's or their
> applications by a long shot.
> 
> Also, 'random noise' is redundent. 'Noise' is by
> -definition- random,
> otherwise it wouldn't be noise, it would have a
> correlation factor, once
> you found it you could remove the noise (assuming of
> course its
> computationaly tractible).
> 
> 
>  --
>    
>
____________________________________________________________________
> 
>               When I die, I would like to be born
> again as me.
> 
>                                             Hugh
> Hefner
>      ravage at ssz.com                                 
>        www.ssz.com
>      jchoate at open-forge.org                         
> www.open-forge.org
> 
>    
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com




From bounce-emh at tigger.emailhelo.com  Sat Jul 13 06:56:16 2002
From: bounce-emh at tigger.emailhelo.com (Anna)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:56:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: make money doing absolutely nothing
Message-ID: <20020713135616.49E95FF96@SERVERNAME.impulsive.com>

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From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 13 10:35:17 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020713122441.7895D-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20020713173517.20437.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

thanx Mr Jim.

Data.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com




From greg1173 at lakewebs.net  Sat Jul 13 08:40:58 2002
From: greg1173 at lakewebs.net (greg a broadwater)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:40:58 -0500
Subject: saw your ad
Message-ID: <001501c22a83$afeb21e0$78c11f0c@mime>

Hello, 

     I saw your ad posted about your business. I, like you, have my own internet business and I was wondering a few things: 

    What type of success are you having posting free ads?  

    What kind of success are you enjoying with your business opportunity? 

    Have you found that you are enjoying having more free time? 

Best Regards, 
Greg Broadwater

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From greg1173 at lakewebs.net  Sat Jul 13 08:41:36 2002
From: greg1173 at lakewebs.net (greg a broadwater)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:41:36 -0500
Subject: saw your ad
Message-ID: <001e01c22a83$c6716dc0$78c11f0c@mime>

Hello, 

     I saw your ad posted about your business. I, like you, have my own internet business and I was wondering a few things: 

    What type of success are you having posting free ads?  

    What kind of success are you enjoying with your business opportunity? 

    Have you found that you are enjoying having more free time? 

Best Regards, 
Greg Broadwater

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From ericm at lne.com  Sat Jul 13 10:59:23 2002
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:59:23 -0700
Subject: economics of DRM, was Re: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <200207130634.SAA473940@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>; from
  pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz on Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:34:36PM +1200
References: <200207130634.SAA473940@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <20020713105923.A27199@slack.lne.com>


On Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:34:36PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> Eric Murray <ericm at lne.com> writes:
> >On Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 07:14:55PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> >>From a purely economic perspectice, I can't see how this will fly.  I'll pull a
> >>random figure of $5 out of thin air (well, I saw it mentioned somewhere but
> >>can't remember the source) as the additional manufacturing cost for the TCPA
> >>hardware components.  Motherboard manufacturers go through redesigns in order
> >>to save cents in manufacturing costs, and they're expected to add $5 to their
> >>manufacturing cost just to help Microsoft manage its piracy problem?
> >
> >Motherboard makers don't pay for it.  Microsoft pays for it.
> 
> Hmm, I can just see it now, Windows 2005 ships as three CDs, a 400-page EULA, a
> fine-tip soldering iron, a magnifying glass, an EMBASSY chip, and a copy of
> "SMD Soldering for Dummies".


You're probably joking, but just in case you're not, or there's
somone who doesn't get it, here's how it works:


Wave (or someone like them) makes a deal with the motherboard
makers to install EMBASSY chips.  Wave pays the motherboard makers
to do it, so there is no added cost to them.  Wave then sells the rights
to use the EMBASSY to Microsoft, Sony, et. al.   The arrangement
may involve percentages of the fees that users pay (i.e. Wave
gets 50% of $1 that a user pays for a Sony-owned song, and gives half
of that to the motherboard maker), or it might involve up-front
payments.  It can work either way.

The difficulty is to get enough EMBASSY or whatever chips out there to
make a critical mass that's attractive to use, and to distribute the
cost of the DRM hardware and software over enough DRM customers that
it's profitable for each one.  i.e. MS might not want to underwrite $20
worth of DRM by itself, because it doesn't make enough more through
DRM-enforced licensing to make a profit from it.  But if the $20 for
the DRM is split among 20 companies, each paying $1, they can all make
a profit from using it.  TCPA, by standardizing the DRM, makes it easier
to get a critical mass and easier to round up participants.

I think that it is important to understand the economics behind DRM
because that is ultimately what will determine if and how it is deployed.
Microsoft does not do things simply because they enjoy being evil.
They are not so worried about Linux (with its small share of the market)
that they will spend mega-bucks now on a very long term project that might
possibly let them keep it off some PCs in the far future.  They _are_
concerned with getting paid for the 50% of their software that isn't
paid for.  There's a shitload of money there, and if getting at some of
it costs a little, well, its still more profit than they would
have gotten otherwise.

Of course its even better for them if they can convince users that DRM
is an added security feature, or they can get governments to require it
(i.e. V-chip).  Then the users pay for it.  But I don't see either of
those being very likely.  It's more probable that there needs to be
significant profit in it for a number of players to make it go.


Eric




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Sat Jul 13 11:50:23 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:50:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <20020713163936.12958.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207131145370.5102-100000@eskimo.com>


On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:

> can u pls explain how they have statistical
> signatures,pls-
>
>
>  may be using SPN's, i have tried ANSI X9.17 key
> generation with GOST-it did have a negligably small
> skew-it makes me wonder what statistical signature
> they have.The negligable skew is a weakness but not
> high enough to compramise the security of the key used
> from the ANSI x9.17 key gen method.
> pls explain.
> thank u veru much.
>

You're on the right track.  Take several encryption algorithms
of your choice, then use a fixed IV, and the same sets of keys,
and encrypt blocks of 0's.  For each algorithm, compute several sets of
staticstics (a la NIST or DIEHARD).  With 100 blocks of 10 Megabytes
(100 different keys) you should see some interesting differences.

Remember, your question originally was "how can you tell which algorithm",
not "how do you find the key".  Let us know what you find out :-)

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 10:29:00 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:29:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <20020713164808.14441.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020713122441.7895D-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



A RNG is a character or string generator whose generation algorithm
prevents prediction of the next output if one knows all the previous
outputs and the algorithm. In other words if you know everything there is
to know about the generator your odds of predicting the next output state
are even - pure luck - 'Fair'.

A PRNG is one that fails the RNG test.

Read Knuth, you should also check out,

Exploring Randomness
G.J. Chaitin
ISBN 1-85233-417-7

Has some interesting insite on randomness, some of his propositions are
not exactly same old same old. Interesting read.


On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:

> hi,
> 
> eer..I think we need a defenition of an Rng & Prng
> that every 1 should agree on.
> 
> would this help?
> 
> RNG & PRNG
> ----------------
> 
> 1:>A RNG has an infinite period where as a PRNG has a
> defenite period after which the sequence will repeat.
> Atmospheric noise,Radiation decay are examples of
> RNG's.(Difference)
> 
> 2:>An RNG & PRNG should pass a series of radomness
> tests. (Similarity)
> 
> 3:>For the same set of input parameters,a RNG always
> give a different output.
> A PRNG always gives the same set of outputs for the
> same input parameters (Difference) 
> 
> 
> would any 1 also like 2 review
> 
> http://www.ircsuper.net/~neo/prng.html
> thanx.
> 
> Regards Data.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 10:52:22 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:52:22 -0500
Subject: American Scientist: Cellular Secretions: It's in the Pits (re Random)
Message-ID: <3D3068D6.DF7E552@ssz.com>


http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:KhxsVznGAV0C:www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/issues/Sciobs97/Sciobs97-05Random.html+random+definition&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ricky2020 at worldemail.com  Sat Jul 13 10:02:50 2002
From: ricky2020 at worldemail.com (G4M-AMERICA)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:02:50 -0400
Subject: ===> (( Try G4m $1,000,000 / Yr Millionaire System, Change Your Life !!! )) <===
Message-ID: <200207142307.g6EN7po8012880@ak47.algebra.com>

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From ricky2020 at worldemail.com  Sat Jul 13 10:03:04 2002
From: ricky2020 at worldemail.com (G4M-AMERICA)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:03:04 -0400
Subject: ===> (( Try G4m $1,000,000 / Yr Millionaire System, Change Your Life !!! )) <===
Message-ID: <200207142314.SAA12754@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 11:40:39 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:40:39 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | More Attacks on Linux than Windows
Message-ID: <3D307427.E52BE225@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/13/1754232.shtml?tid=172
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From avophacc at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 13 11:43:17 2002
From: avophacc at yahoo.com (Me)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:43:17 -0500
Subject: Hi.
Message-ID: <200207131849.NAA20959@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 11:45:10 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:45:10 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | MPAA Goes After Its Customers
Message-ID: <3D307536.964D2AA1@ssz.com>


http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/07/13/1238204.shtml?tid=97
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 11:59:28 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:59:28 -0500
Subject: Speaking of tanh and technology...
Message-ID: <3D307890.97B3C32E@ssz.com>


http://www.jerrypournelle.com/sot/sot_intro.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 12:20:38 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:20:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207131145370.5102-100000@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020713140047.7895E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Perhaps a simpler example. Let's look at a 'fair' coin and what that means
in the real world.

A normal coin (or any nDx for that matter [1]) for short sequences is
random. In other words if you record a game sequence and then replay the
game the die sequence won't have any statistical correlation. Knowing what
happened last time won't help you this time, the 'window of opportunity'
with respect to statistical bias isn't large enough, so the game is
'fair'.

But!, if you throw that coin once a second for a billion years you will
find that -no- coin is really -fair-. This goes back to k-sequences and
Knuth. Go back and then start throwing it again, and if your sequence is
long enough you can use this known bias from the first experiment to
increase your percentage of 'hits' in the second sequence. In other words
you can now prove experimentaly the coin isn't fair and what that bias is.

This is related to 'Hypothesis Testing'. It's rather strange, but I happen
to be rereading a book, "The Mathematical Sciences: A Collection of
Essays" (LoC# 69-12750) put out by some group called COSRIMS in about
1969. I remember the book because somebody gave it to me (I was about 9 or
10 at the time) to read, and it has an insane bright yellow cover. I
recently came across it again in a used bookstore for $10 so I bought it.
It's basically a bunch of chapters on various issues of math research with
the intent of focusing high school and undergrads to pursue mathematical
careers by giving examples of what you might be working on. The chapter
"Statistical Inference" (by J. Kiefer) uses an example of a coin and a
3-run sequence to determine the actual bias of the coin (the example is
very simple, the coin is very biased). You should be able to still find
the book in public libraries and college libraries. I'm sure more modern
texts on hypothesis testing will be just as relevant.

The vast majority of RNG's that we use are really PRNG's, we just don't
collect enough data on them to be able to demonstrate that. Or the
sequence of interest is so short we dont' care.

[1] A coin is a 1D2, two coins would be 2D2, for example. Who said
    wargaming was worthless ;)


On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Mike Rosing wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:
> 
> > can u pls explain how they have statistical
> > signatures,pls-
> >
> >
> >  may be using SPN's, i have tried ANSI X9.17 key
> > generation with GOST-it did have a negligably small
> > skew-it makes me wonder what statistical signature
> > they have.The negligable skew is a weakness but not
> > high enough to compramise the security of the key used
> > from the ANSI x9.17 key gen method.
> > pls explain.
> > thank u veru much.
> >
> 
> You're on the right track.  Take several encryption algorithms
> of your choice, then use a fixed IV, and the same sets of keys,
> and encrypt blocks of 0's.  For each algorithm, compute several sets of
> staticstics (a la NIST or DIEHARD).  With 100 blocks of 10 Megabytes
> (100 different keys) you should see some interesting differences.
> 
> Remember, your question originally was "how can you tell which algorithm",
> not "how do you find the key".  Let us know what you find out :-)
> 
> Patience, persistence, truth,
> Dr. mike
> 
> 


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 13:34:06 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:34:06 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Carp-Free Independent Music Labels
Message-ID: <3D308EBE.8B04767@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/13/1246216.shtml?tid=141
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com  Sat Jul 13 14:28:06 2002
From: bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com (Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:28:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SNEAK PEEK AT THE GOOD STUFF
Message-ID: <20020713212806.BDA083A16E@pmail02.impulsive.com>

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From piolenc at mozcom.com  Sat Jul 13 02:52:33 2002
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:52:33 +0800
Subject: Are YOU looking for a new website, to develop an existing 
 website, for cheaper hosting or domain names?
References: <002e01c229e7$88a14610$0100a8c0@nth.local>
Message-ID: <3D2FF861.FA74E36@mozcom.com>


Given that you are a Web hosting company, I am surprised to see no URL
for further information.

Marc de Piolenc

> Look at This wrote:
> 
> Are YOU looking for a new website, to develop an existing website, for
> cheaper hosting or domain names?
> 
> We are a UK based company who would like to offer you our considerable
> experience and expertise in the field of website design, eCommerce,
> web hosting, domain name facilities and search engine positioning.




From bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com  Sat Jul 13 14:53:09 2002
From: bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com (Tamara)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:53:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: DEEP THROAT DONKEY
Message-ID: <20020713215309.BEBAA47BF2@test02.impulsive.com>

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From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Fri Jul 12 23:15:59 2002
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:15:59 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: DNA databases to be classified
Message-ID: <200207130615.SAA463013@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>


"Lucky Green" <shamrock at cypherpunks.to> quoted:

>The feat proves that even if all the polio virus in the world were
>destroyed, it would be easily possible to resurrect the crippling
>disease. It also raises the worrying possibility that bioterrorists
>could use a similar approach to create devastating diseases such as
>ebola and smallpox without having to gain access to protected viral
>stocks.

I saw this on BBC news.  It took a very sophisticated lab two years work to
produce polio.  They thought they might be able to do smallpox given about 20
years work.  They even managed to slip in an Internet reference in the story. 

I guess "We synthesised polio from RNA" just isn't newsworthy enough on its
own.

Peter.




From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Fri Jul 12 23:34:36 2002
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:34:36 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: Ross's TCPA paper
Message-ID: <200207130634.SAA473940@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>


Eric Murray <ericm at lne.com> writes:
>On Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 07:14:55PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>>From a purely economic perspectice, I can't see how this will fly.  I'll pull a
>>random figure of $5 out of thin air (well, I saw it mentioned somewhere but
>>can't remember the source) as the additional manufacturing cost for the TCPA
>>hardware components.  Motherboard manufacturers go through redesigns in order
>>to save cents in manufacturing costs, and they're expected to add $5 to their
>>manufacturing cost just to help Microsoft manage its piracy problem?
>
>Motherboard makers don't pay for it.  Microsoft pays for it.

Hmm, I can just see it now, Windows 2005 ships as three CDs, a 400-page EULA, a
fine-tip soldering iron, a magnifying glass, an EMBASSY chip, and a copy of
"SMD Soldering for Dummies".

Peter.




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sat Jul 13 17:10:07 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:10:07 -0500
Subject: economics of DRM, was Re: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <20020713105923.A27199@slack.lne.com>
References: <200207130634.SAA473940@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
  <20020713105923.A27199@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20020714000921.GB27757@cybershamanix.com>


On Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:59:23AM -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
> Microsoft does not do things simply because they enjoy being evil.
> They are not so worried about Linux (with its small share of the market)
> that they will spend mega-bucks now on a very long term project that might
> possibly let them keep it off some PCs in the far future.  They _are_
> concerned with getting paid for the 50% of their software that isn't
> paid for.  There's a shitload of money there, and if getting at some of
> it costs a little, well, its still more profit than they would
> have gotten otherwise.

   Isn't it much simpler for them to just write into their OS the ability to
snitch on what M$ software was on the users machine everytime they go online? In
fact, I've been assuming that everything from w98 on did exactly that. And
wouldn't it be trivial for them to check for cracked serial numbers, or
duplicate serial numbers? 

-- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Sat Jul 13 20:53:50 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 20:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Microsoft censors Newsweek - and new version of TCPA FAQ
In-Reply-To: <E17TAn5-0005j9-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207132050500.21789-100000@eskimo.com>


On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, John Young wrote:

> The US Dept. of Commerce Technology Administration is inviting the
> public to make comments for the upcomming Workshop on Digital
> Entertainment and Rights Management.  The workshop will be held on
> July 17.
>
>
> http://www.ta.doc.gov/comments/comments.htm

I just tried posting a comment and got this:
HTTP Error 404

404 Not Found

The Web server cannot find the file or script you asked for. Please check
the URL to ensure that the path is correct.

Please contact the server's administrator if this problem persists.

Anybody know who their "server admin" might be?  I'll send something to
their public affairs e-mail since that's all I can find for now.  But if
anyone else gets thru let me know, and I'll try again.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Jul 13 20:55:22 2002
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 20:55:22 -0700
Subject: IP: SSL Certificate "Monopoly" Bears Financial Fruit
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711162153.028787f0@mail.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000001c22aea$5d990b20$6501a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>


RJ Harvey wrote:
> Thanks for the tip!  I just got a new cert from Geotrust,
> and it was such an amazing contrast to those I've gotten
> from Verisign and Thawte!  They apparently take the 
> verification info from the whois data on the site, and you 
> really can do the process from start to finish in 10 minutes or so.

I believe that Geotrust has come up with an excellent new model to make
money out of the CA business with minimum hassle to the customer while
reducing Geotrust's vetting costs down to next to zero. Their
introduction of this new model was one of the more interesting news at
this year's otherwise rather bland RSA Conference.

> The cert shows that it's issued by Equifax, however.

The cert shows as being issued by Equifax because Geotrust purchased
Equifax's root embedded in major browsers since MSIE 5 on the secondary
market. (Geotrust purchased more than just the root).

--Lucky Green




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 13 20:35:52 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:35:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fakes... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020713223524.7895G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 20:14:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dardani Boletus <gurglingrainless2 at yahoo.com>
To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: Fakes...


There is something extremely wrong with every single
person in this world. They seem to be part of a
pointless simulation.
 
"The Matrix" has portrayed this idea somewhat, yet we
watch it and go back to our daily lives.  Yet in this
very life, underneath the seeming diversity in
people's opinions, values, talents, and interests,
there is something that makes everyone the same.  It
is as though this planet is populated only by mindless
fakes, objects that provide the appearance of
intellect on the surface but are based on only
mechanical reflexes and primitive thought patterns.
 
I don't really care if anything I say has been said
before, if it was portrayed in movies, in books, or in
the lyrics of some useless song. With 6 billion people
covering the globe at any given time, thousands and
thousands of years of written literature, probability
dictates almost any combination of words has occurred
numerous times. Yet there is clear evidence there was
no action, so those words, just like the people who
spoke them, must have been just more fakes. I am
forced to use this language (also created by the
fakes) because there is no alternative, so everything
I write here could be misunderstood to make me sound
like one of them, but it will be the action that I
take and the dedication that will separate me from
them.
 
In my estimation the fakes that occupy this planet
don't make up 99%, but more like 99.9999999% of the
population. I know this because I've searched, and in
my search have so far only found one true ally (I have
found him via the internet as well). But even with
those numbers we would not give up because there is no
logic in giving up. 
 
The people on this planet are all fakes because the
societies have made them this way. Ideas that populate
people's minds have no logic or purpose. Concepts such
as religion, god, morality, individualism, freedom,
identity, happiness, love and billions of others are
all just memes. Like parasites they infect the minds
and spread from one person to the next. They have no
point or purpose; they exist without any logical basis
or foundation. The fakes are completely controlled by
them, and they will never see beyond them. To not be
controlled by them one must do more then just realize
that they exist. One must resist any ideas that have
no point, endlessly question, and never accept
imperfection or compromise in any answer.
 
We (myself and my ally) are different though. While we
have had the limitation of existing only in these
societies, something has made it possible for us to
resist being indoctrinated into becoming one of those
fakes. We have no arbitrary wants, needs, desires, or
preferences. 
 
If this world continues to exist the way it is then
nothing in it will ever have a point. It will always
be just a product of random evolution, one with no
importance or relevance. The only logical goal is to
dedicate our lives to increasing our numbers, those
that aren't fakes, so that in thousands of years our
numbers may be such that the fakes would no longer be
a threat to progress.
 
Those that join us must see every other person
occupying this planet as the enemy, and us as their
only allies. Like us they must have dedication only to
taking the most logical action, and to nothing else.

To tell you more about us, we've posted some personal
information about ourselves on a website. You'll also
find past responses to us on that webpage.  

Obviously anyone reading this email is most likely
just another fake. Do not simply reply to this email,
if you do your message will almost certainly be
ignored. If you do wish to communicate, first
demonstrate your interest by taking the effort to
find us online, one of the ways to do that is
described below.

Use a major search engine to search for every
combination of any two words from the list below.
The order of the words shouldn't matter as long as
you do not search for them in quotes, but generally
it should be clear what words can go together and
in what order. Also when you pick the right 
combination you shouldn't need to look at more 
then the first matches.

There are actually at least 7 (or more) different 
combinations and websites you can find by searching 
this list. The one you should contact will clearly
say it is the 'communication' page and will have
three forms to fill out. Mention what sites you did
find, the more effort it seems you took the more
likely we would believe in your dedication.

There is no trick to this and this isn't meant to be
quick, it should, however, be fairly clear if/when you
find the right site. The following search engines were
verified by us, please use any of them as other search
engines may simply not list us correctly: Yahoo, 
Google, InfoSeek, Lycos, MSN, LookSmart, HotBot,
InfoSpace, Ask.com, AllTheWeb, Teoma, WebCrawler,
AltaVista, AOL Search, Netscape Search, Dogpile.

perfect
pointless
theory
endless
desire
defiance
eternal
wants
logic
competitive
driving
perpetual
competition
impartial
vision
logical
meaningless
teenage
infinite
dream
final
best
escape
fury
objective
purpose
thought
indoctrination
only
ambition
clue
view
perfection

If this can't be solved, or if you never reach us, 
there should be no reason for you to give up as 
we will never give up and thus there will always 
be some way to find us.


--------------
Ryan and Jacob



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com




From industrynews20022002 at yahoo.com.sg  Sat Jul 13 10:54:34 2002
From: industrynews20022002 at yahoo.com.sg (industrynews20022002 at yahoo.com.sg)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:54:34 +0500
Subject: (ADV) OTCBB: XCNT   A Company On The Rise
Message-ID: <65RV0.4JC30.industrynews20022002@yahoo.com.sg>

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From unsubs-53d77e67e6-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Sat Jul 13 19:08:53 2002
From: unsubs-53d77e67e6-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com (Special Deals)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:08:53 +0000
Subject: *Free Ink + Free Shipping!
Message-ID: <200207140215.VAA27090@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 14 05:45:17 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 05:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Atmospheric noise & fair coin flipping
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020713140047.7895E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20020714124517.28776.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

Does a fair coin exist in real world?

Like as according to Allan Turing-an event is defined
by set of  certain parameters governing the event at
that instant.

by redoing the same experiment-do we always have the
same set of parameters that previously defined the
coin.

it is said that atmospheric noise is random but how
can we say for sure.

what if the parameters giverning atmospheric noise
vary frm time 2 time.

may be at a later stage an additional parameter may
govern atmospheric noise or may be a parameter may be
removed,we cant say that for sure.
like the earth & moon attract each other,no 1 knows
why,it is a physical observation & based on it we make
a matahmetical model,what if one day-2 bodies with
mass start repelling each other?
then an extra parameter would govern it & we
will have 2 change the mathametical mode considering
this additional parameter.

so can we say atmospheric noise is random or a coin
flipping is random-only because it passes die hard
test or other randomness tests-which is an indicator
of randomness with the current defenition of
parameters in determing randomness?

is there truly random or that we can say with certain
degre of confidence that they are nearly random as all
current evidence poits so.

Regards Data.



--- 


Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com> wrote:
> 
> Perhaps a simpler example. Let's look at a 'fair'
> coin and what that means
> in the real world.
> 
> A normal coin (or any nDx for that matter [1]) for
> short sequences is
> random. In other words if you record a game sequence
> and then replay the
> game the die sequence won't have any statistical
> correlation. Knowing what
> happened last time won't help you this time, the
> 'window of opportunity'
> with respect to statistical bias isn't large enough,
> so the game is
> 'fair'.
> 
> But!, if you throw that coin once a second for a
> billion years you will
> find that -no- coin is really -fair-. This goes back
> to k-sequences and
> Knuth. Go back and then start throwing it again, and
> if your sequence is
> long enough you can use this known bias from the
> first experiment to
> increase your percentage of 'hits' in the second
> sequence. In other words
> you can now prove experimentaly the coin isn't fair
> and what that bias is.
> 
> This is related to 'Hypothesis Testing'. It's rather
> strange, but I happen
> to be rereading a book, "The Mathematical Sciences:
> A Collection of
> Essays" (LoC# 69-12750) put out by some group called
> COSRIMS in about
> 1969. I remember the book because somebody gave it
> to me (I was about 9 or
> 10 at the time) to read, and it has an insane bright
> yellow cover. I
> recently came across it again in a used bookstore
> for $10 so I bought it.
> It's basically a bunch of chapters on various issues
> of math research with
> the intent of focusing high school and undergrads to
> pursue mathematical
> careers by giving examples of what you might be
> working on. The chapter
> "Statistical Inference" (by J. Kiefer) uses an
> example of a coin and a
> 3-run sequence to determine the actual bias of the
> coin (the example is
> very simple, the coin is very biased). You should be
> able to still find
> the book in public libraries and college libraries.
> I'm sure more modern
> texts on hypothesis testing will be just as
> relevant.
> 
> The vast majority of RNG's that we use are really
> PRNG's, we just don't
> collect enough data on them to be able to
> demonstrate that. Or the
> sequence of interest is so short we dont' care.
> 
> [1] A coin is a 1D2, two coins would be 2D2, for
> example. Who said
>     wargaming was worthless ;)
> 
> 
> On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Mike Rosing wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:
> > 
> > > can u pls explain how they have statistical
> > > signatures,pls-
> > >
> > >
> > >  may be using SPN's, i have tried ANSI X9.17 key
> > > generation with GOST-it did have a negligably
> small
> > > skew-it makes me wonder what statistical
> signature
> > > they have.The negligable skew is a weakness but
> not
> > > high enough to compramise the security of the
> key used
> > > from the ANSI x9.17 key gen method.
> > > pls explain.
> > > thank u veru much.
> > >
> > 
> > You're on the right track.  Take several
> encryption algorithms
> > of your choice, then use a fixed IV, and the same
> sets of keys,
> > and encrypt blocks of 0's.  For each algorithm,
> compute several sets of
> > staticstics (a la NIST or DIEHARD).  With 100
> blocks of 10 Megabytes
> > (100 different keys) you should see some
> interesting differences.
> > 
> > Remember, your question originally was "how can
> you tell which algorithm",
> > not "how do you find the key".  Let us know what
> you find out :-)
> > 
> > Patience, persistence, truth,
> > Dr. mike
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
>  --
>    
>
____________________________________________________________________
> 
>               When I die, I would like to be born
> again as me.
> 
>                                             Hugh
> Hefner
>      ravage at ssz.com                                 
>        www.ssz.com
>      jchoate at open-forge.org                         
> www.open-forge.org
> 
>    
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com




From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 14 06:22:56 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 06:22:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding encrytion algorithm
Message-ID: <20020714132256.84696.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

I get the idea,thanx.

Regards Data.



> can u pls explain how they have statistical
> signatures,pls-
>
>
>  may be using SPN's, i have tried ANSI X9.17 key
> generation with GOST-it did have a negligably small
> skew-it makes me wonder what statistical signature
> they have.The negligable skew is a weakness but not
> high enough to compramise the security of the key
used
> from the ANSI x9.17 key gen method.
> pls explain.
> thank u veru much.
>

You're on the right track.  Take several encryption
algorithms
of your choice, then use a fixed IV, and the same sets
of keys,
and encrypt blocks of 0's.  For each algorithm,
compute several sets of
staticstics (a la NIST or DIEHARD).  With 100 blocks
of 10 Megabytes
(100 different keys) you should see some interesting
differences.

Remember, your question originally was "how can you
tell which 
algorithm",
not "how do you find the key".  Let us know what you
find out :-)

--yes :)

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Jul 14 09:08:58 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:08:58 -0700
Subject: Atmospheric noise & fair coin flipping
In-Reply-To: <20020714124517.28776.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00D53187-9744-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Sunday, July 14, 2002, at 05:45  AM, gfgs pedo wrote:

> hi,
>
> Does a fair coin exist in real world?
>
> Like as according to Allan Turing-an event is defined
> by set of  certain parameters governing the event at
> that instant.
>
> by redoing the same experiment-do we always have the
> same set of parameters that previously defined the
> coin.

No, certainly not. We have limited measurement precision, currently 
something like 12 decimal places for most mass/gravity/thing parameters. 
Even our theory of QED is "only" good to about 23 decimal places, less 
in any real world laboratory. The result? The errors will come "marching 
in" from beyond, resulting in variations in coin tosses, billiard table 
evolutions, etc. Cf. a large body of (mostly old) stuff on this. Google 
is your friend.

>
> it is said that atmospheric noise is random but how
> can we say for sure.

No, no sequence (of bits, symbols, pressures, etc.)  can ever be 
"proved" to be "random." Cf. Chaitin, Kolmogorov, or more popular 
accounts in, say, Rucker's "Mind Tools." Also covered in archives of 
this list.


You ask a lot of questions. I encourage you to find some of the basic 
books, use Google, and to think deeply about questions before phrasing 
them here.


--Tim May




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 07:16:45 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:16:45 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | RoadRunner Blocking Use of Kazaa
Message-ID: <3D3187CC.CED5832E@ssz.com>


http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/07/14/0237258.shtml?tid=153
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From al at qaeda.org  Sun Jul 14 09:17:34 2002
From: al at qaeda.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithym)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:17:34 -0700
Subject: Atmospheric noise & fair coin flipping
Message-ID: <3D31A41D.E2F03085@qaeda.org>


At 05:45 AM 7/14/02 -0700, gfgs pedo wrote:
>it is said that atmospheric noise is random but how
>can we say for sure.

Physics, chaos, the growth of initial uncertainty as systems evolve,
energy/time required to make measurements to arbitrary precision.


>what if the parameters giverning atmospheric noise
>vary frm time 2 time.

The rules of physics are those that don't change from time to time, or
place to place.
Certainly the e.g., wind speed does.

>so can we say atmospheric noise is random or a coin
>flipping is random-only because it passes die hard
>test or other randomness tests-which is an indicator
>of randomness with the current defenition of
>parameters in determing randomness?

No, since 'anything through a whitener passes' these tests.
The integers (0, 1, 2..) fed into DES will pass.
(Equivalently) A low-entropy source fed into a hash will pass.

[Historical note: this is why Intel should make its raw RNG
data available in chips with whitened-output RNG functions]

To have a true RNG, You *must* have a physical understanding of the
source
of entropy whence you distill the pure bits (whether or not
you feed it into a whitener after distillation).  Precisely
because a 'black box' may be a deterministic (if you know
the secret) PRNG.  By 'distill' I mean reduce N bits to M,
N > M, in such a way as to increase the entropy of the
resultant M bits.


>is there truly random or that we can say with certain
>degre of confidence that they are nearly random as all
>current evidence poits so.

'Random' should be taken to mean 'ignorant of'.  It suffices
that we (and our adversary) are ignorant of the detailed conditions
inside a noise diode, unstable atomic nucleus, atmospheric
(or FM radio) noise receiver, etc.  Philosophical discussions about
'true
randomness' ("Is there a deeper/smaller level of description in
which apparently-random events are based or emerge from?")
are beyond the scope of this rant.




From al at qaeda.org  Sun Jul 14 09:26:20 2002
From: al at qaeda.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithym)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:26:20 -0700
Subject: Which universe are we in? (tossing tennis balls into
  spinning props)
Message-ID: <3D31A62B.AAC741C6@qaeda.org>


At 03:21 PM 7/14/02 +0100, Ben Laurie wrote:
>Eric Cordian wrote:
>> Still, Nature abhors overcomplexification, and plain old quantum
mechanics
>> works just fine for predicting the results of experiments.
>
>Oh yeah? So predict when this radioactive isotope will decay, if you
please.

You mean "this particular *atom* will decay".

And while QM can't help you with a particular atom, it also doesn't say
that its impossible that knowledge of internal states of the atom
wouldn't help you predict its fragmentation.

Think about tossing tennis balls through spinning propellers.  You might
think you could
only characterize the translucent prop-disk by a certain probability
that the ball would get through
vs. get shredded.  ("Propeller mechanics")

But if you could see the phase of the prop as it spun, you could time
your tosses and predict which would get shredded.  But without that
high-speed strobe, you just think there's a disk where there's really a
spinning blade.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 07:33:12 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:33:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Atmospheric noise & fair coin flipping
In-Reply-To: <20020714124517.28776.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020714092040.7895I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:

> hi,
> 
> Does a fair coin exist in real world?

Depends on what you mean by fair and how long you have to throw it to get
a usable string. If you're using it to play a game over the span of a few
minutes to a few days, probably most coins are 'fair'. If you need to use
it over a very long period (very few current applications I'll grant you )
then no coin is 'fair'.

Note that this bias of the coin isn't a function of air resistance, it
would still show the bias in space; though it might be a bit different in
atmosphere than in space - the faces are not the same. What makes the
difference is the distribution of mass and where the resultant CG is
located. Any two coins will have a slightly different CG location within
the volume of the coin.

> Like as according to Allan Turing-an event is defined
> by set of  certain parameters governing the event at
> that instant.
> 
> by redoing the same experiment-do we always have the
> same set of parameters that previously defined the
> coin.

See 2nd Law & Uncertainty Principle.

> it is said that atmospheric noise is random but how
> can we say for sure.

A thunderstorm is not random. By 'atomospheric noise' you're making
refrence to the individual particles that strike your eardrum (seashore
in a shell effect). Not quite the same thing, your wording is too vague to
be meaningfull.
 
> so can we say atmospheric noise is random or a coin
> flipping is random-only because it passes die hard
> test or other randomness tests-which is an indicator
> of randomness with the current defenition of
> parameters in determing randomness?

Actually these tests are not perfect and are used on 'short' strings. A
string from a supposad RNG that's only a few million billion gigabytes
long isn't a very long string. It's also probably not boing to be used for
very long at each invocation, so the discrepency is below the error.

The point is these tests are statistical. They say, only with a certain
degree of confidence (in other words "I could be wrong") that the string
looks 'random'.

> is there truly random or that we can say with certain
> degre of confidence that they are nearly random as all
> current evidence poits so.

Several physical systems, radioactive decay and magnetic pendulums being
my two favorite examples, are random by definition. If they aren't then
the world would be a lot different place than it is.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 07:36:00 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:36:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fwd: Re: Quantum Computing Puts Encrypted Messages at Risk (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020714093554.7895K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:24:48 +0200
From: Amir Herzberg <amir at herzberg.name>
To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Quantum Computing Puts Encrypted Messages at Risk


>At 20:50 11/07/2002, Ian wrote:
>>When I first read The Code Book (Simon Singh), I drooled endlessly at
>>the idea of Unbreakable Encryption, until I became a little more
>>cynical. I questioned Dr Singh on this when he came and gave a lecture
>>in Cheltenham UK recently, and his best answer was that QKD is so secure
>>because "its a different kind of system. Its not like conventional
>>encryption." [synopsis - not direct quotation]. I'm not thorougly
>>convinced.
>>
>>Can anyone (politely) prove this mere outsider wrong?
>
>I am also not a physicist. So I share your skepticism about relying for 
>security on physic theories which I don't understand, and furthermore 
>which may evolve and refine over time.
>
>However, as many people are excited about Quantum crypto, I really would 
>like to put my skepticism aside and understand what is its cryptographic 
>significance, say if we accept the physics as valid (for ever or at least 
>`long enough`). In particular I'm considering whether I should and can 
>cover this area in my book. I must admit I haven't yet studied this area 
>carefully, so my questions may be naive, if so please excuse me (and your 
>answer will be doubly appreciated). Some questions:
>
>1. Quantum key encryption seems to require huge amounts of truly random 
>bits at both sender and receiver. This seems impractical as (almost) truly 
>random bits are hard to produce (especially at high speeds). Is there a fix?
>2. After the transmission, the receiver is supposed to tell the sender how 
>it set its polarization; how is this authenticated? If it isn't we are 
>obviously susceptible to man in the middle attack.
>3. It seems the quantum link must connect directly from sender to 
>receiver. How can this help provide end to end security on the Internet? 
>Or are we back to private networks?
>4. As to quantum computation signalling the end of `crypto as we know 
>it`... Is it fair to say this may end only the mechanisms built on 
>discrete log and/or factoring, but not shared key algorithms like AES and 
>some of the other public key algorithms?
>
>Best, Amir Herzberg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amir Herzberg
See http://amir.herzberg.name/book.html for draft chapters from 
`Introduction to Cryptography,
Secure Communication and Commerce`, and link to lectures. Comments 
appreciated.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 07:40:13 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:40:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fwd: Re: Quantum Computing Puts Encrypted Messages at Risk (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020714093554.7895K-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020714093739.7895L-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Random photons in optical systems are easy to get at hight speed, a flame.

BEC's also have the capability to make some significant breaks in the
security of optical encryption. For example, one can trap a photon in a
BEC, measure it's parameters at one of the BEC-component atoms, then
re-emit the photon without changing its state (the trick is we are
measuring a part of the photon not the entire photon, and the photon is
standing still - frozen in time).



> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:24:48 +0200
> From: Amir Herzberg <amir at herzberg.name>
> To: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
> Subject: Fwd: Re: Quantum Computing Puts Encrypted Messages at Risk
> 
> 
> >At 20:50 11/07/2002, Ian wrote:
> >>When I first read The Code Book (Simon Singh), I drooled endlessly at
> >>the idea of Unbreakable Encryption, until I became a little more
> >>cynical. I questioned Dr Singh on this when he came and gave a lecture
> >>in Cheltenham UK recently, and his best answer was that QKD is so secure
> >>because "its a different kind of system. Its not like conventional
> >>encryption." [synopsis - not direct quotation]. I'm not thorougly
> >>convinced.
> >>
> >>Can anyone (politely) prove this mere outsider wrong?
> >
> >I am also not a physicist. So I share your skepticism about relying for 
> >security on physic theories which I don't understand, and furthermore 
> >which may evolve and refine over time.
> >
> >However, as many people are excited about Quantum crypto, I really would 
> >like to put my skepticism aside and understand what is its cryptographic 
> >significance, say if we accept the physics as valid (for ever or at least 
> >`long enough`). In particular I'm considering whether I should and can 
> >cover this area in my book. I must admit I haven't yet studied this area 
> >carefully, so my questions may be naive, if so please excuse me (and your 
> >answer will be doubly appreciated). Some questions:
> >
> >1. Quantum key encryption seems to require huge amounts of truly random 
> >bits at both sender and receiver. This seems impractical as (almost) truly 
> >random bits are hard to produce (especially at high speeds). Is there a fix?
> >2. After the transmission, the receiver is supposed to tell the sender how 
> >it set its polarization; how is this authenticated? If it isn't we are 
> >obviously susceptible to man in the middle attack.
> >3. It seems the quantum link must connect directly from sender to 
> >receiver. How can this help provide end to end security on the Internet? 
> >Or are we back to private networks?
> >4. As to quantum computation signalling the end of `crypto as we know 
> >it`... Is it fair to say this may end only the mechanisms built on 
> >discrete log and/or factoring, but not shared key algorithms like AES and 
> >some of the other public key algorithms?
> >
> >Best, Amir Herzberg
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Amir Herzberg
> See http://amir.herzberg.name/book.html for draft chapters from 
> `Introduction to Cryptography,
> Secure Communication and Commerce`, and link to lectures. Comments 
> appreciated.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Cryptography Mailing List
> Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com
> 


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com  Sun Jul 14 07:20:17 2002
From: bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:20:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Mr. ED  GETS  HEAD
Message-ID: <20020714142017.ABB2C11E79@SERVERNAME.impulsive.com>

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From pitster265535474 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 14 08:28:10 2002
From: pitster265535474 at hotmail.com (pitster265535474 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 11:28:10 -0400
Subject: 2002 Gov Grants Info Package.............
Message-ID: <200207141522.g6EFMTo8029641@ak47.algebra.com>

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From 94youngins199 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 14 10:05:23 2002
From: 94youngins199 at yahoo.com (94youngins199 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:05:23 -0400
Subject: Never Pay 4 Porn Again - ALL FREE! 199
Message-ID: <200207141852.g6EIqbo8020666@ak47.algebra.com>

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From wexobtcxrqj at mailcab.com  Sun Jul 14 06:26:17 2002
From: wexobtcxrqj at mailcab.com (wexobtcxrqj at mailcab.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:26:17 00000
Subject: Would you enjoy working from home?
Message-ID: <1026653177.989@localhost.localdomain>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Warm regards.





plcurechaxf^nytroen(pbz




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 11:45:43 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:45:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Atmospheric noise & fair coin flipping
In-Reply-To: <00D53187-9744-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020714134514.7895V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, Tim May wrote:

> On Sunday, July 14, 2002, at 05:45  AM, gfgs pedo wrote:

> You ask a lot of questions. I encourage you to find some of the basic 
> books, use Google, and to think deeply about questions before phrasing 
> them here.

Ignore Tim. Keep asking your questions.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 11:47:09 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:47:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Which universe are we in? (tossing tennis balls into  spinning props)
In-Reply-To: <3D31A62B.AAC741C6@qaeda.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020714134640.7895W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, Optimizzin Al-gorithym wrote:

> And while QM can't help you with a particular atom, it also doesn't say
> that its impossible that knowledge of internal states of the atom
> wouldn't help you predict its fragmentation.

Other rules do; Uncertaintly Principle, 2nd Law for starters.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 12:48:10 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:48:10 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Peekabooty, Camera/Shy Released
Message-ID: <3D31D57A.B4C37B67@ssz.com>


http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/02/07/14/1320217.shtml?tid=153
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ben at algroup.co.uk  Sun Jul 14 07:21:42 2002
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:21:42 +0100
Subject: Which universe are we in?
References: <200207091707.g69H75E15231@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <3D3188F6.4090103@algroup.co.uk>


Eric Cordian wrote:
> Still, Nature abhors overcomplexification, and plain old quantum mechanics
> works just fine for predicting the results of experiments.

Oh yeah? So predict when this radioactive isotope will decay, if you please.

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html       http://www.thebunker.net/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com  Sun Jul 14 13:17:17 2002
From: bounce-afs at tigger.absolutefreesmt.com (Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:17:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: This one is a very nice'a!
Message-ID: <20020714201717.DC072B8D1@pmail07.impulsive.com>

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From bi5zozr6h137 at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 15 04:27:44 2002
From: bi5zozr6h137 at hotmail.com (Amanda)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:27:44 -1900
Subject: Save up to 75% & Earn Tax-Free Dividends...               ZYTLY
Message-ID: <000064361828$000000d2$00002db9@mx09.hotmail.com>

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From ben at algroup.co.uk  Sun Jul 14 09:06:55 2002
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:06:55 +0100
Subject: Tax consequences of becoming a US citizen
References: <08ce1d26456ba63ef9b10af856d47695@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3D31A19F.20505@algroup.co.uk>


Nomen Nescio wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 09, at 02:02PM, Tim May wrote:
> 
>>>Also, a person having extensive offshore (outside the U.S.)
>>>assets may well find his assets are now taxable in the U.S.
>>>And for those with capital assets not taxed in their home
>>>countries (e.g., Germany, Japan), this may be quite a shock.
>>
> 
> On 9 Jul 2002 at 18:40, Gabriel Rocha wrote:
> 
>>This applies wether he is a US citizen or not, green card holder
>>or not, Sealand citizen or not. Once the IRS sinkstheir claws
>>into you, you're screwed.
> 
> 
> Are you saying that if someone is legally resident in the US for a
> while, the US IRS will attempt to get his assets all over the
> world forever?  I find this hard to believe.
> 

Fascinating. Take it to taxpunks.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html       http://www.thebunker.net/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From rptdnmks2002 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 14 15:14:58 2002
From: rptdnmks2002 at yahoo.com (rptdnmks2002 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:14:58 -0500
Subject: ADV    OTCBB:SCDD A COMPANY ON THE RISE
Message-ID: <RPM80GQSC.V2HN6XG.rptdnmks2002@yahoo.com>

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From maryweathers at netcourrier.com  Sun Jul 14 10:42:01 2002
From: maryweathers at netcourrier.com (maryweathers at netcourrier.com)
Date: 14 Jul 2002 17:42:01 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20020714174201.16292.qmail@www10.chinadns.com>


���������ķ�������Ϣ,��������һ, ���� 15 ��, 2002 at 01:42:01�ύ��
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

recipient: cypherpunks at openpgp.net,cypherpunks at outer.net,cypherpunks at scia.net,cypherpunks at ssz.com,cypherpunks at tcsn.net

subject:  Life-Time upgrades for FREEr0r4y8r8

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From TopSpecialOffers__r-60763006-987 at top-special-offers.com  Sun Jul 14 11:35:25 2002
From: TopSpecialOffers__r-60763006-987 at top-special-offers.com (Top Special Offers)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:35:25 UT
Subject: Friend, Teach your dog how to talk!
Message-ID: <200207141841.NAA08730@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 16:42:55 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:42:55 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | IPFilter Infriging on Bay Network Patent?
Message-ID: <3D320C7F.D17DF5@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/14/2221229.shtml?tid=155
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 16:46:32 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:46:32 -0500
Subject: US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies - smh.com.au (1 in 24 is the target)
Message-ID: <3D320D58.B0C92EFF@ssz.com>


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 16:51:02 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:51:02 -0500
Subject: Need To Know - Yahoo fiddles with users mail...
Message-ID: <3D320E66.21BC7F17@ssz.com>


http://www.ntk.net/
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 16:56:29 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:56:29 -0500
Subject: kuro5hin.org || Our Bodies, Ourselves - The New War of Independence
Message-ID: <3D320FAD.A085F485@ssz.com>


http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2002/7/13/44823/1293
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 16:57:41 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:57:41 -0500
Subject: kuro5hin.org || Isreal: Struggling through the ages, Part 1
Message-ID: <3D320FF5.AC8FAEDC@ssz.com>


http://www.Kuro5hin.org/story/2002/7/13/215633/697
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 19:27:24 2002
From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:27:24
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207142333.SAA13137@einstein.ssz.com>


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From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:33:12
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207142339.SAA13310@einstein.ssz.com>


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From ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 19:36:46 2002
From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:36:46
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207142343.SAA13409@einstein.ssz.com>


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From ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Jul 14 19:40:11 2002
From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:40:11
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207142346.SAA13573@einstein.ssz.com>


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From: ttriple.cllimax at einstein.ssz.com (aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:42:17
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207142348.SAA13655@einstein.ssz.com>


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From cd at info.com  Sun Jul 14 16:55:04 2002
From: cd at info.com (M M Smith)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:55:04 -0400
Subject: FW: Check out this awesome CD
Message-ID: <200207142355.g6ENtHo8016489@ak47.algebra.com>

Click to listen to its Top 5 Christian Radio Hit songs 
 
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-------------- next part --------------
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From tcmay at got.net  Sun Jul 14 21:36:06 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:36:06 -0700
Subject: Weird trolls from "gfs pedo"
In-Reply-To: <20020713164808.14441.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6094AC14-97AC-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, July 13, 2002, at 09:48  AM, gfgs pedo wrote:
> that every 1 should agree on.
>
>
> would any 1 also like 2 review
>


For starters, why don't you start writing in standard English?

Even if English is not your first or second language, using such 
"cutisms" as "u" for "you" and
"any 1" for "anyone" is much more misleading than using the standard, 
defined words.

We mostly get rid of Choate's rants, we get rid of nearly all of "mattd" 
spews, but now we have "gfs pedo" as our new nutcase. Some sort of 
conservation of strangeness, I guess.

Or, in your non-Earth language:

u ask more quest shuns than any 1 kneads too..i peep u r a troll.



--Tim May




From daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu  Sun Jul 14 14:49:02 2002
From: daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: 14 Jul 2002 21:49:02 GMT
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
References: <0f2bbb120feac209720c4db0a15b818b@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: <agsrke$vqo$1@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>


Anonymous  wrote:
>Legislation of DRM is not in the cards, [...]

Care to support this claim?  (the Hollings bill and the DMCA requirement
for Macrovision in every VCR come to mind as evidence to the contrary)




From declan at well.com  Sun Jul 14 20:22:44 2002
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:22:44 -0400
Subject: fast, nimble, efficient dept of homeland security is born
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020714232229.01b80db0@mail.well.com>


2. House panel backs civil service protections in homeland bill
By Molly M. Peterson, National Journal News Service

During a marathon markup session that dragged into the Thursday night and 
Friday morning, the House Government Reform Committee voted to ensure civil 
service protections for federal employees slated to move into the proposed 
Department of Homeland Security.

Committee Chairman Dan Burton, R-Ind., offered an amendment to restore 
collective bargaining rights, health and retirement benefits and 
whistleblower protections that the new homeland security secretary would 
have been allowed to waive under the president's bill (H.R. 5005).

Burton's amendment also would modify the bill's procurement provisions and 
ensure that certain sunshine laws, such as the 1972 Federal Advisory 
Committee Act would apply to the new department.

Full story: http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0702/071202njns1.htm




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sun Jul 14 23:28:44 2002
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:28:44 -0700
Subject: US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies
Message-ID: <200207150628.g6F6SiD04690@mailserver2.hushmail.com>


[Call for jIM bELL]

US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies

By Ritt Goldstein
July 15 2002

The Bush Administration aims to recruit millions of United States citizens as domestic informants in a program likely to alarm civil liberties groups.

The Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS, means the US will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the infamous Stasi secret police. The program would use a minimum of 4 per cent of Americans to report "suspicious activity".

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Mon Jul 15 00:12:34 2002
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 02:12:34 -0500
Subject: BushNazi.jpg
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020715021234.008bc4e8@127.0.0.1>


Attached File:

"BushNazi.jpg" or "BushNazi-SM"

-- A 15 minute expo in creativity, whilest we still have such rights.
(Please forgive the file size, I feel it worth it; mainly for concept, not
image quality.)

Open distribution and reproduction is fully granted, if not encouraged.

-Wilfred
Wilfred at Cryogen.com

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of BushNazi-sm.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752]




From unsubs-7429325deb-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Sun Jul 14 20:55:00 2002
From: unsubs-7429325deb-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com (Special Deals)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 03:55:00 +0000
Subject: Government Secured Certificates That Pay You 16%, 18%, up to 50%!!
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-------------- next part --------------
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From eresrch at eskimo.com  Mon Jul 15 06:27:50 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 06:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Weird trolls from "gfs pedo"
In-Reply-To: <6094AC14-97AC-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207150623150.4648-100000@eskimo.com>


On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, Tim May wrote:

> For starters, why don't you start writing in standard English?
>
> Even if English is not your first or second language, using such
> "cutisms" as "u" for "you" and
> "any 1" for "anyone" is much more misleading than using the standard,
> defined words.

Get up on the wrong side of bed today Tim?  Must have smacked
your nose pretty good to get that bent out of shape for something
that trivial.

> We mostly get rid of Choate's rants, we get rid of nearly all of "mattd"
> spews, but now we have "gfs pedo" as our new nutcase. Some sort of
> conservation of strangeness, I guess.

give the kid a break.  He's trying to learn something, and you're
being unpleasant about it may simply make him try to piss you off.
I know that's what my kids to for me :-)

> Or, in your non-Earth language:
>
> u ask more quest shuns than any 1 kneads too..i peep u r a troll.

Not quite as good a third grader, but not bad Tim.  If you actually
were a soccer mom you might have a better attitude about teaching
nettequite.  But you just drive like one.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From greatcecilia at ecplaza.net  Mon Jul 15 06:30:13 2002
From: greatcecilia at ecplaza.net (cecilia mark aku)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 06:30:13
Subject: Urgent Assistance Please
Message-ID: <200207150520.g6F5KLGw016717@ak47.algebra.com>


DEAR SIR,

         REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE.

I AM MRS CECILIA MARK AKU, WIDOW OF LATE ISHAYA MARK
AKU,MINISTER FOR YOUTHS AND SPORTS IN NIGERIA, WHO
DIED
ON 4TH APIRL,2002, IN A PLANE CRASH . I HAVE BEEN
INFORMED BY MY FAMILY ATTORNEY, BARRISTER JAMES MOSES,
THAT MY LATE HUSBAND DEPOSITED TWO TRUNK BOXES
CONTAINING MONEY AMOUNTING TO THE SUM OF THIRTY-FIVE
MILLION FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS
($35,500,000=).THE MONEY WAS DEPOSITED AND CREDITED IN
THE NAME OF A FOREIGN PARTNER WHO WILL RETRIEVE THE
MONEY FROM THE SAFE KEEPING COMPANY. 

IN VIEW OF THIS, THE ATTORNEY NOW ADVISED ME TO SEEK
THE CONFIDENCE OF A FOREIGN PARTNER WHO CAN 
VOLUNTEER
THE RETRIEVAL OF THE TWO TRUNK BOXES FROM THE 
SECURITY
COMPANY, FOR ONWARD DISBURSEMENT AND INVESTMENT, 
BASED
ON THE FOREIGN PARTNER'S DIRECT SUPERVISION AS
DIRECTED IN MY LATE HUSBAND'S WILL.

TO ENSURE A REWARD FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE, YOU WILL BE
COMPENSATED WITH 30% OF THE TOTAL SUM OF
$35.5M.SIMILARLY,5%OF THE FUND HAS BEEN SET ASIDE FOR
EXPENSES THAT MAY BE INCURRED IN THE PROCESS OF
RETRIEVING THE TRUNK BOXES.LASTLY,MY OWN SHARE WILL 
BE
65% OF THE TOTAL SUM.

AS EARLIER STATED,HIS WILL HAD INSTRUCTED THAT FOREIGN
SHARES,BONDS AND STOCKS SHOULD BE BOUGHT AFTER THE
FUNDS HAVE BEEN RETRIEVED FROM THE SECURITY 
COMPANY,AS
WELL AS INVEST IN THE PARTNER'S COUNTRY WITH HIS
ASSISTANCE. THIS IS AIMED AT SECURING THE FUTURE OF
OUR CHILDREN.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THIS PROPOSAL, 
THEREFORE,KINDLY FORWARD YOUR RESPONSE BY EMAIL TO 
ME
URGENTLY. YOU CAN ALSO SEND YOUR PRIVATE TELEPHONE 
AND
FAX NUMBERS FOR FURTHER EASE OF COMMUNICATION.

TO THIS END,NOTE THAT I HAVE BEEN ASSURED THAT THE
TRANSACTION WILL BE CONCLUDED WITHIN TWO WEEKS OF
RECEIVING YOUR RESPONSE. ON HEARING FROM YOU ALSO,I
SHALL IMMEDIATELY COMMENCE THE PROCESS OF RETIRIEVING
THE WILL.MAY I AT THIS POINT EMPHASIZE THE NEED FOR
CONFIDENTIALITY IN THIS TRANSACTION, WHICH IS TO
PREVENT THE UNNECESSARY INTRUSION OF THE GOVERNMENT 
OF
MY COUNTRY.

I SINCERELY DO HOPE THAT YOU WILL NOT BETRAY THE
CONFIDENCE I REPOSE ON YOU.THIS, YOU WILL ACHIEVE, BY
GIVING ME ASSURANCE THAT YOU WILL NOT SIT ON THE FUNDS
WHEN YOU RETRIEVE IT FROM THE SAFE KEEPING COMPANY.


MRS.CECILIA MARK AKU








From eresrch at eskimo.com  Mon Jul 15 06:46:34 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 06:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Microsoft censors Newsweek - and new version of TCPA FAQ
In-Reply-To: <E17TAn5-0005j9-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207150645190.5381-100000@eskimo.com>


On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, John Young wrote:

> The US Dept. of Commerce Technology Administration is inviting the
> public to make comments for the upcomming Workshop on Digital
> Entertainment and Rights Management.  The workshop will be held on
> July 17.
>
>
> http://www.ta.doc.gov/comments/comments.htm

This morning it works.  Post your comments before it breaks again!

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From ricky2020 at worldemail.com  Mon Jul 15 04:53:54 2002
From: ricky2020 at worldemail.com (G4M-AMERICA)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 07:53:54 -0400
Subject: ===> (( Try G4m $1,000,000 / Yr Millionaire System, Change Your Life !!! )) <===
Message-ID: <200207161859.g6GIx2c8008882@ak47.algebra.com>

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From ricky2020 at worldemail.com  Mon Jul 15 04:53:55 2002
From: ricky2020 at worldemail.com (G4M-AMERICA)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 07:53:55 -0400
Subject: ===> (( Try G4m $1,000,000 / Yr Millionaire System, Change Your Life !!! )) <===
Message-ID: <200207161905.OAA15451@einstein.ssz.com>

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From InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com  Mon Jul 15 07:18:37 2002
From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (Insight on the News)
Date: 15 Jul 2002 10:18:37 -0400
Subject: Insight on the News Email Edition
Message-ID: <200207151019940.SM01248@broadbandpublisher.com>


INSIGHT NEWS ALERT!

A new issue of Insight on the News is now online

http://www.insightmag.com

...............................................

Folks, Michael Waller has hit the nail on the head this week with his 
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policy. Don�t miss it! http://www.insightmag.com/news/258204.html Scott Wheeler 
wonders out loud whether the Joint Intelligence Committee will investigate Sept. 
11 or just spin it for the Democrats http://www.insightmag.com/news/258194.html. 
And we�re looking at the Elvis revival on the 25th anniversary of his death, 
along with a lot more http://www.insightmag.com/news/258197.html. That�s it for 
now. Until next time, from the Bunker, I�m still your newsman in Washington.

...............................................

�WAHABI LOBBY� TAKES THE OFFENSIVE

Michael Waller reveals that radical Islamists take a page from the KGB's 
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http://www.insightmag.com/news/258204.html

...............................................

DUBIOUS STAFF DIRECTOR TO CLOUD SEPT. 11 PROBE?

Scott Wheeler writes that Democrat insider Eleanor Hill's appointment as staff 
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http://www.insightmag.com/news/258194.html

...............................................

THE CROWN STILL FITS

Kelly O�Meara tells us that nearly a quarter-century after the untimely death of 
the King of Rock 'n' Roll, Elvis Presley still haunts Americans � including the 
new generation � seeking roots in a genuine American culture. 
http://www.insightmag.com/news/258197.html



========================================

          Pat Boone�s 7 Reasons to Own Gold!

http://www.fame-inc.com/MultiReg/index.asp?CC=30

========================================



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Ralph de Toledano observes junk Science and the New American Myths, and�guess 
what�finds them lacking.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/258199.html

...............................................

SQUEEZE PLAY CAN�T TRAP BUSH

Jennifer Hickey writes that unable to make sufficient contact with voters on the 
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http://www.insightmag.com/news/258215.html

...............................................

THE ANTI-CATHOLIC CATHOLICS

Joel Mowbray reveals that antireligious feminists are using Catholics for a Free 
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http://www.insightmag.com/news/258196.html

...............................................

G8 MEETING DUCKS MORE AFRICAN AID

James Harder writes that despite billions of dollars in aid committed to Africa 
by the world's industrial powers, African leaders question why there is no 
movement to reduce trade barriers.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/258200.html

...............................................

HAVE YOU HEARD THE ONE ABOUT THE PLEDGE AND THE CONGRESSWOMAN?

The pledge seems to be a laughing matter to congresswoman Lynn Rivers

http://www.insightmag.com/news/258212.html

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You have received this newsletter because you have a user name and password at 
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From ben at algroup.co.uk  Mon Jul 15 02:34:40 2002
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:34:40 +0100
Subject: Virtuallizing Palladium
References: <1026429813.3d2e13759d4b5@mail.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <3D329730.7030804@algroup.co.uk>


Albion Zeglin wrote:
> 
> Similar to DeCSS, only one Palladium chip needs to be reverse engineered and
> it's key(s) broken to virtualize the machine.

If you break one machine's key:

a) You won't need to virtualise it

b) It won't be getting any new software licensed to it

> Simulate a Pentium VI in Java and
> all extant code could be accessed.

If you live long enough for it to run, yeah.

>  Similarly, is Microsoft's signing keys were
> cracked  then any code could be signed.

Duh.

> If the software needs a real-time connection to the internet though, then
> protection could be built into it.

Oh yeah? How?

> Laptop applications would be vulnerable
> until we have pervasive wireless connection.
> 
> How many bits do you think MS will use for the keys?

Enough.

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html       http://www.thebunker.net/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From freepornfgutfcwg at fasterpopmail.com  Mon Jul 15 03:53:47 2002
From: freepornfgutfcwg at fasterpopmail.com (freepornfgutfcwg at fasterpopmail.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:53:47 00000
Subject: ARE YOU HORNY?
Message-ID: <1026730427.983@localhost.localdomain>


 cypherpunks at algebra.com

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From mv at cdc.gov  Mon Jul 15 11:32:15 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:32:15 -0700
Subject: Which universe are we in? (tossing tennis balls into 
  spinning  props)
Message-ID: <3D33152E.792B9B0B@cdc.gov>


At 03:27 PM 7/15/02 +0100, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
>> Optimizzin Al-gorithym wrote:
>
>> And while QM can't help you with a particular atom, it also doesn't
say
>> that its impossible that knowledge of internal states of the atom
>> wouldn't help you predict its fragmentation.
>
>Yes it does.
>
>Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Ring a Bell?

The uncertainty principle says that there is a limit on the information
about
position and change in position that you can collect.  It does not rule
out
internal states.  For instance, you could generate particles with a
certain property
which you do not have to measure to know that they have that property.

It is a logical mistake to think that because you can't see it in 2002,
you can't ever
measure it, or it doesn't exist.  When something appears 'random', it is
because of
(wholly normal) ignorance on our part.   Sometimes 'randomness' is used
to
shut off analytic machinery, much like 'God'  (this latter idea is
Minsky's).




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 09:47:31 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:47:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NewsForge: Can newspapers help make record companies obsolete? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715114713.7895s-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/07/15/146221.shtml?tid=5


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 09:48:31 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:48:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Salon.com Technology | It's time for ICANN to go (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715114801.7895u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/02/gilmore/index.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From remailer at aarg.net  Mon Jul 15 12:10:13 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:10:13 -0700
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
Message-ID: <9652bfb2b27a268c4cc676da9198175f@aarg.net>


David Wagner wrote:
> Anonymous  wrote:
> > Legislation of DRM is not in the cards, [...]
>
> Care to support this claim?  (the Hollings bill and the DMCA requirement
> for Macrovision in every VCR come to mind as evidence to the contrary)

The line you quoted was the summary from a message which described
the detailed reasoning that supported the claim.  To reiterate and lay
out the points explicitly:

 - Legislating DRM would be extremely expensive in the current environment
   as it would require phasing out all computers presently in use.
   This provides a huge practical burden and barrier for any legislation
   along these lines.

 - Some have opposed voluntary DRM because they believe that it would
   reduce the barrier above.  Once DRM systems are voluntarily installed
   in a substantial number of systems, it would be a relatively small
   step to mandate them in all systems.

 - But this is false reasoning; if DRM is so successful as to be present
   in a substantial number of systems, it is not necessary to legislate
   it.

 - Further, even if it is legislated, that will not stop piracy.  No
   practical DRM system will prevent people from running arbitrary
   3rd party software (despite absurd arguments by fanatics that the
   government seeks to remove Turing complete computing capabilities
   from the population).

 - Neither the content nor technology companies have incentive to support
   legislation, as they still must convince people that paying for
   content is superior to pirating it.  Legislating DRM will not help
   them in this battle, as piracy will still be an alternative.

 - What would help them legislatively is some kind of enforced
   watermarking technology, so that the initial "ripping" of content is
   impossible (this also requires closing the analog hole).  Only by
   intervening at this first step can they hope to break the piracy
   chain, and this is the real purpose of the Hollings bill.  See also
   the recent work by the BPDG.  But this is not DRM in the sense we
   are discussing it here.

Those were the points made earlier in support of the summary statement
quoted above.  As far as the Hollings bill in particular, the most notable
aspect of it was the tremendous opposition from virtually every sector of
the economy.  The Hollings bill was not just a failure, it was a massive,
DOA, stinking heap of failure which had not even the slightest chance
of success.  If anything, the failure of the Hollings bill fully supports
the thesis that legislation of DRM is not going to happen.

As for Macrovision, this is an example of "watermarking" technology and
as mentioned above, it does make sense to legislate along these lines
(although it is questionable whether it can work in the long run -
Macrovision defeaters are widely available).  It represents an attempt
to close the analog hole.

The point is that this is not a simple-minded or unreflective analysis.
We are looking specifically at the kind of DRM enabled by the TCPA.
This means the ability to run content viewing software that imposes DRM
rules which might limit the number of views, or require pay per view,
or require data to be deleted if it is copied elsewhere, etc.  The point
of TCPA and Palladium is for the remote content provider to be assured
that the software it is talking to across the net is a trusted piece of
software which will enforce the rules.

It is this kind of DRM to which the analysis above is directed.  This DRM
does not prevent piracy using any of the techniques available today, or
via exploiting bugs and flaws in future technology.  It does not and can
not prevent people from running file sharing programs and making pirated
content available on the Internet (at least without crippling computers
to the point where necessary business functionality is lost, which would
mean sending the country into a deep depression and making it an obsolete
competitor on world markets, i.e. it won't happen).  This kind of DRM
can nevertheless succeed on a voluntary basis by providing good quality
for good value, in conjunction with technological and legal attacks on
P2P systems such as are in their infancy now.

All of these arguments have been made in the past few weeks on this list.
Hopefully reiterating them in one place will be helpful to those who
have overlooked them in the past.




From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk  Mon Jul 15 05:15:24 2002
From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (David Howe)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:15:24 +0100
Subject: Virtuallizing Palladium
References: <1026429813.3d2e13759d4b5@mail.spamcop.net>
  <3D329730.7030804@algroup.co.uk>
Message-ID: <016601c22bf9$50475b60$c71121c2@sharpuk.co.uk>


Ben Laurie <ben at algroup.co.uk> was seen to declaim:
> Albion Zeglin wrote:
>> Similar to DeCSS, only one Palladium chip needs to be reverse
>> engineered and it's key(s) broken to virtualize the machine.
> If you break one machine's key:
> a) You won't need to virtualise it
> b) It won't be getting any new software licensed to it
I would think it would be more likely to match the "mod" chips that
address this very issue in the Gaming world - a replacement chip that
tells the OS "yeah, everythings ok" even when it isn't :)




From daw at cs.berkeley.edu  Mon Jul 15 14:11:57 2002
From: daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:11:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
In-Reply-To: <9652bfb2b27a268c4cc676da9198175f@aarg.net> from "AARG!
  Anonymous" at Jul 15, 2002 12:10:13 PM
Message-ID: <200207152111.g6FLBvC03853@mozart.cs.berkeley.edu>


> David Wagner wrote:
> > Anonymous  wrote:
> > > Legislation of DRM is not in the cards, [...]
> >
> > Care to support this claim?  (the Hollings bill and the DMCA requirement
> > for Macrovision in every VCR come to mind as evidence to the contrary)
> 
> To reiterate and lay out the points explicitly:
[... list partially truncated, retaining one illustrative point ...]
>  - Neither the content nor technology companies have incentive to support
>    legislation, as they still must convince people that paying for
>    content is superior to pirating it.  Legislating DRM will not help
>    them in this battle, as piracy will still be an alternative.

You argue that it would be irrational for content companies to push to
have DRM mandated.  This is something we could debate at length, but we
don't need to: rational or not, we already have evidence that content
companies have pushed, and *are* pushing, for some kind of mandated DRM.

The Hollings bill was interesting not for its success or failure, but
for what it reveals the content companies' agenda.  It seems plausible
that its supporters will be back next year with a "compromise" bill --
plausible enough that we'd better be prepared for such a circumstance.

As for Macrovision, your suggested distinction between DRM and
watermarking is too confusing for me to follow.  By any definition I'm
familiar with, Macrovision is DRM.  Sure, one might say that Macrovision
uses watermarking internally as a means to achieve its goals, but
that's besides the point.  DRM refers to *what* security policy a system
enforces, not how it enforces them.  A system can both use watermarking
and be a DRM system -- the two are not incompatible.

As for whether TCPA or Palladium will ever be mandated, that's anyone's
guess, and I don't think anyone knows for sure.  Given this, hadn't we
better plan for the possibility that it becomes mandated?




From mv at cdc.gov  Mon Jul 15 15:13:11 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:13:11 -0700
Subject: state dept melting down, trying to intimidate reporters
Message-ID: <3D3348F6.197EE2DD@cdc.gov>


When Mowbray began to get the feeling that he couldn't leave even if he
wanted to, he asked, "Am I being
detained?"

When a diplomatic security official told him "no," Mowbray announced
that he was leaving.

At which point, the guard stepped in front of Mowbray and said, "Now,
you're being detained." He was
 physically kept from leaving the building, and repeatedly pushed to
reveal his source, until, for whatever
reason, he was allowed to go.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020715-115302-3818r




From zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk  Mon Jul 15 07:27:11 2002
From: zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk (Peter Fairbrother)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:27:11 +0100
Subject: Which universe are we in? (tossing tennis balls into
  spinning props)
In-Reply-To: <3D31A62B.AAC741C6@qaeda.org>
Message-ID: <B9589A4F.21794%zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk>


> Optimizzin Al-gorithym wrote:

> At 03:21 PM 7/14/02 +0100, Ben Laurie wrote:
>> Eric Cordian wrote:
>>> Still, Nature abhors overcomplexification, and plain old quantum
> mechanics
>>> works just fine for predicting the results of experiments.
>> 
>> Oh yeah? So predict when this radioactive isotope will decay, if you
> please.
> 
> You mean "this particular *atom* will decay".
> 
> And while QM can't help you with a particular atom, it also doesn't say
> that its impossible that knowledge of internal states of the atom
> wouldn't help you predict its fragmentation.

Yes it does. 

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Ring a Bell?


-- Peter Fairbrother




From ericm at lne.com  Mon Jul 15 15:31:23 2002
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:31:23 -0700
Subject: economics of DRM, was Re: Ross's TCPA paper
In-Reply-To: <20020714000921.GB27757@cybershamanix.com>; from
  hseaver@cybershamanix.com on Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:10:07PM -0500
References: <200207130634.SAA473940@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
  <20020713105923.A27199@slack.lne.com>
  <20020714000921.GB27757@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20020715153123.A9998@slack.lne.com>


On Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:10:07PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:59:23AM -0700, Eric Murray wrote:
> > Microsoft does not do things simply because they enjoy being evil.
> > They are not so worried about Linux (with its small share of the market)
> > that they will spend mega-bucks now on a very long term project that might
> > possibly let them keep it off some PCs in the far future.  They _are_
> > concerned with getting paid for the 50% of their software that isn't
> > paid for.  There's a shitload of money there, and if getting at some of
> > it costs a little, well, its still more profit than they would
> > have gotten otherwise.
> 
>    Isn't it much simpler for them to just write into their OS the ability to
> snitch on what M$ software was on the users machine everytime they go online? In
> fact, I've been assuming that everything from w98 on did exactly that. And
> wouldn't it be trivial for them to check for cracked serial numbers, or
> duplicate serial numbers? 


I don't think 98 does it, but XP does.
It just raised the bar a bit-- there was a pirate version
of Office XP out before the legal version. 


Eric




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Jul 15 12:38:55 2002
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:38:55 -0400 (edt)
Subject: Virtuallizing Palladium
In-Reply-To: <1026429813.3d2e13759d4b5@mail.spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207151538110.30939-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>


Probably not worth emulating a Pentium4 in Java, however, there is bochs
to start from.  I don't think it does P4 emulation yet, but open source,
yadda, yadda, cypherpunks write code, yadda, yadda. :)

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :NSAs budget is about|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :$20 Billion USD/year|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:and they didn't stop|monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :9-11 from happening.|don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :I want a refund!    |site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Albion Zeglin wrote:

> Similar to DeCSS, only one Palladium chip needs to be reverse engineered and
> it's key(s) broken to virtualize the machine.  Simulate a Pentium VI in Java and
> all extant code could be accessed.  Similarly, is Microsoft's signing keys were
> cracked  then any code could be signed.
> 
> If the software needs a real-time connection to the internet though, then
> protection could be built into it.  Laptop applications would be vulnerable
> until we have pervasive wireless connection.
> 
> How many bits do you think MS will use for the keys?
> 
> Albion.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 14:36:45 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:36:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CNN.com - Hackers help counter Net censorship - July 15, 2002 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715163634.7895y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/07/15/censorship.reut/index.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 14:37:05 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:37:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Register - Security industry's hacker-pimping slammed (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715163651.7895z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://theregister.co.uk/content/55/26198.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 14:39:13 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:39:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Which universe are we in? (tossing tennis balls into   spinning  props)
In-Reply-To: <3D33152E.792B9B0B@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715163716.7895A-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> The uncertainty principle says that there is a limit on the information
> about position and change in position that you can collect.  It does not
> rule out internal states.

Yes it does, it says that any time you measure a system it WILL be in an
unknown state after the measurement. No if's, no but's. It effects photons
(which I challenge you to demonstrate has 'charge') as well as electrons
and protons. It's universal. It's about measuring, not about what is being
measured.

The 2nd also comes into play because any mechanism you use to 'manipulate'
that internal state must also effect that state in a negative way.

You're screwed two ways from Sunday.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 14:40:28 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:40:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Las Vegas SUN: Lindh Pleads Guilty in Surprise Deal (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715164018.7895C-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2002/jul/15/071504184.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 14:41:22 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:41:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CNN.com - New e-mail virus found in Japan - July 15, 2002 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715164111.7895E-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/07/15/japan.computer.virus.ap/index.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 14:41:44 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:41:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CNN.com - Sneaky history at new spy museum - July 15, 2002 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715164125.7895F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/07/15/spy.museum.ap/index.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 15:05:07 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:05:07 -0500
Subject: Scientists put a light wave on hold
Message-ID: <3D334713.27DEC737@ssz.com>


http://www.msnbc.com/news/242698.asp
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From inquiries at lascarelectronics.com  Mon Jul 15 09:09:31 2002
From: inquiries at lascarelectronics.com (Lascar Electronics)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:09:31 +0100
Subject: Digital Panel Instruments from Lascar Electronics
Message-ID: <200207151619.LAA25655@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Mon Jul 15 15:01:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:01:02 EDT
Subject: *Free Ink + Free Shipping!
Message-ID: <200207152213.PAA22914@s1078.mb00.net>

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From SuperSpecials_____r-7552100-267 at mm23.com  Mon Jul 15 11:51:54 2002
From: SuperSpecials_____r-7552100-267 at mm23.com (Super Specials)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:51:54 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, *Free Ink + Free Shipping!
Message-ID: <200207151858.NAA27593@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 15 18:10:58 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:10:58 -0500
Subject: United Press International: Nat. Review protests journalist detention
Message-ID: <3D3372A2.A02352DB@ssz.com>


http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020715-115302-3818r
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Jul 15 12:00:06 2002
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:00:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Virtuallizing Palladium
Message-ID: <2a5159f3ab2dd9e1f0ba3f21926d1c4d@dizum.com>


Ben Laurie wrote:
> Albion Zeglin wrote:
> > Similar to DeCSS, only one Palladium chip needs to be reverse engineered and
> > it's key(s) broken to virtualize the machine.
>
> If you break one machine's key:
>
> a) You won't need to virtualise it
>
> b) It won't be getting any new software licensed to it

This is true, if you do like DeCSS and try to publish software with the
key in it.  The content consortium will put the cert for that key onto
a CRL, and the key will stop working.

The other possibility is to simply keep the key secret and use it to strip
DRM protection from content, then release the now-free data publicly.
This will work especially well if the companies offer free downloads of
content with some kind of restrictions that you can strip off.  If you
have to pay for each download before you can release it for free, then
you better be a pretty generous guy.

Or maybe you can get paid for your efforts.  This could be the true
killer app for anonymous e-cash.




From hdtrade at dreamwiz.com  Mon Jul 15 05:05:44 2002
From: hdtrade at dreamwiz.com (Paul smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:05:44 +0900
Subject: Personal Alcohol Detector
Message-ID: <200207151206.HAA22349@einstein.ssz.com>

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From hdtrade at dreamwiz.com  Mon Jul 15 05:05:44 2002
From: hdtrade at dreamwiz.com (Paul smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:05:44 +0900
Subject: Personal Alcohol Detector
Message-ID: <200207151200.g6FC0LR22919@waste.minder.net>

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From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul 15 18:42:41 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:42:41 -0400
Subject: Easy Mac Ecash In A Flash...
Message-ID: <p05111a08b95929a138ee@[66.149.49.6]>


http://wwweasymacecash.com/
http://www.softcoin.com/kraft/

FAQ

People ask us tons of questions about e-cash in a flash. We've included a
bunch of answers below. If your question isn't addressed here, please
Contact Us.

TOPICS
Using SoftCoin Codes
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Contact Us

Using SoftCoin Codes

I can't read my Code
Each "Easy Mac E-Cash" code consists of one line of 20 characters that are
a series of letters and numbers. Your code may not work for a few reasons:

    * The code number has been entered incorrectly. Use the guide below to
make sure that correct letters and numbers have been entered.

      If you read: Try entering as:
      B (The number) 8
      (The number) 8 B
      Z (The number) 2
      (The number) 2 Z
      S (The number) 5
      (The number) 5 S
      (The number) 0 D
      D (The number) 0

    * Your code has already been used.
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in/on which you received the code.

Please try entering the code again.

If the code is still not being accepted, please click on the "contact us"
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below to distinguish between valid and invalid characters:

If you read: Try entering as:
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(The number) 8 B
Z (The number) 2
(The number) 2 Z
S (The number) 5
(The number) 5 S
(The number) 0 D
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Do I have to use my real name for my username?
No, you do not have to use your real name when creating your "Easy Mac
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To use your code, you will need to access the participating Internet
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Simply follow the instructions on the screen to shop and get your discount.

When can I shop with my "online cash" Code?
Once you activate the "Easy Mac E-Cash" code, you can shop with it at the
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What happens if I visit the online merchant's site but I don't use my
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Can I spend more than the "online cash" Code amount?
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Can I go directly to an Internet shopping site and spend my "online cash" Code?
No. In order to use your "online cash" code at a participating online
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You will know that you are logged into your account if you see a small
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Where can I get "online cash" Codes?
On specially marked boxes of Easy Mac.

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Also, please note that the $5 and $10 discounts applies to merchandise only
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If you entered the merchant's site via the Easy Mac E-Cash promotional
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please select the "contact us" button at the bottom of most pages of the
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confirmation.

I didn't receive the full amount of my credit, how do I get it applied to
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How do I get back the amount of "online cash" Codes that I didn't spend?
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"online cash" codes can't be refunded in any way. For example, if you
select $10 to spend and select an item for $7, you will not get the
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I returned an item, can I get my Code values back?
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-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Jul 15 18:45:09 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:45:09 -0400
Subject: SoftCoin Secures Funding to Accelerate Success in Precision
  Marketing
Message-ID: <p05111a09b9592ad881e3@[66.149.49.6]>


http://www.softcoin.com/softcoin/consumers/pageDisplay.jhtml?sid=1&PageId=198

SoftCoin Secures Funding to Accelerate Success in Precision Marketing
Also Announces Addition of Veteran Sales and Corporate Strategy Executives

San Francisco, April 23, 2002 -- SoftCoin, Inc., leading provider of
advanced web marketing, loyalty and promotions technology announced today
the completion of its third round of equity financing. The round, led by
Greylock Partners, provides SoftCoin the necessary funds to continue its
aggressive growth in a market where it has shown early dominance. Other
investors include New York-based RRE Ventures, and previous investors Nokia
Venture Partners, Red Rock Ventures, Draper International and Angel
Investors LP.

"SoftCoin has demonstrated through its results for major Fortune 500 brands
that it has the expertise and technology to be a leading player in Internet
marketing applications. Its precision marketing platform's impact on
marketing intelligence, unit volume, and profits provides significant value
to these companies in a turnkey solution," said David Sze, general partner
at Greylock.

"Being the corporate-focused venture institution that we are, we understand
the marketing technology needs and opportunities of Fortune 500 companies;
we believe SoftCoin provides a solution that is right on target, " said
James D. Robinson III, general partner and founder in RRE Ventures.

"We are planning to leverage the extensive experience and network of the
high-caliber group of investors we are bringing to our team in this round,"
said Patrick Soheili, chief executive officer of SoftCoin. "SoftCoin has
established the pace in the marketing technology industry - the funds from
this round will go towards scaling our operations to remain at the
forefront of the industry."

Veteran Executives added to Management Team
Concurrent with this round of investment, the company also announced the
strengthening of its global management team with the addition of John
Stacey as vice president of sales and business development, and Stan Roach
as vice president of corporate strategy. John brings over twenty years of
general management experience with expertise in marketing and selling
products ranging from technology to consumer brands. John's career includes
marketing experience at The Procter & Gamble Company, and executive
positions at IBM, The Learning Company and Metaphor. Stan also comes to
SoftCoin with over twenty years of marketing and general management
experience in the consumer goods and high technology sectors. His
experience includes The Procter & Gamble Company, Accolade/Infograms, Sony
ImageSoft, Activision, and Electronic Arts.

"We are extremely pleased to have attracted John and Stan to our team. They
bring a wealth of experience consumer products, SoftCoin's primary focus
to-date, as well as other industry verticals we are expanding into," said
Patrick Soheili.

SoftCoin proprietary precision marketing technology powers marketing
programs such as promotions, continuity and loyalty initiatives. Using
SoftCoin's platform, brands seamlessly connect their offline and online
marketing efforts with a comprehensive suite of tools to develop and
deliver customized web-powered marketing programs with unparalleled ease,
flexibility, efficiency and speed. The Precision Marketing platform also
provides marketing executives with vehicles to stimulate loyalty, give
consumers valuable rewards, conduct research, and establish direct
interaction mechanisms with their most valuable consumers.

About SoftCoin
SoftCoin, Inc., is the leading provider of advanced web marketing and
promotions technology. With a comprehensive suite of promotion
applications, reward engines and CRM tools, the SoftCoin platform empowers
brands to develop and deliver compelling, customized web-powered marketing
programs. SoftCoin technology has powered promotions for multiple brands at
major Fortune 500 companies including Dole Food Company, Inc., Compaq
Computer, Nokia Mobile Phones, Frito-Lay Corporation, Nestli SA, McDonald's
Corporation, The Procter & Gamble Company, The Quaker Oats Company, H. J.
Heinz Company and Eastman Kodak Company, among others. SoftCoin partners
include leading retailers and premier marketing companies. SoftCoin is a
venture-backed, privately held company, with offices in the San Francisco
Bay Area, Chicago and Connecticut.


Home . Security & Privacy . Terms & Conditions . Copyrights & Trademarks

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 15 13:11:01 2002
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:11:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: IP: New Project: Internet Filtering in Saudi Arabia (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207152210450.20454-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:08:05 -0400
From: David Farber <dfarber at earthlink.net>
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: New Project: Internet Filtering in Saudi Arabia


-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Edelman <edelman at law.harvard.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:28:46 
To: dave at farber.net
Subject: New Project: Internet Filtering in Saudi Arabia

Professor Jonathan Zittrain and I have been studying Internet filtering in
multiple countries worldwide ([1]), and we released today our first
investigation in this series.

In recent testing, we designed software to connect to the Internet through
proxy servers in Saudi Arabia, and we subsequently attempted to access
approximately 60,000 Web pages as a means of empirically determining the
scope and pervasiveness of Internet filtering there.  Saudi-installed
filtering systems prevented access to certain requested Web pages; we
tracked a total of 2,038 blocked pages.  Such pages contained information
about religion, health, education, reference, humor, and entertainment.
Specific blocked sites include the Women in American History section of
Encyclopedia Britannica Online (women.eb.com), the Rolling Stone Magazine
(rollingstone.com), Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
(religioustolerance.org), and the ivillage.com Women's Network, among
hundreds of others.

We conclude that the Saudi government maintains an active interest in
filtering non-sexually explicit Web content for users within the Kingdom. We
also find that substantial amounts of non-sexually explicit Web content is
in fact effectively inaccessible to most Saudi Arabians.  Finally, we note
that much of this content consists of sites that are popular elsewhere in
the world.

Our full report, along with a listing of specific blocked web pages, is
available at
   <http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filtering/saudiarabia/>



Ben Edelman
Berkman Center for Internet & Society
Harvard Law School
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/



References:

[1] "Documentation of Internet Filtering Worldwide"
<http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filtering/>


For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From alexb at gmx.at  Mon Jul 15 20:57:00 2002
From: alexb at gmx.at (Persis)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:57:00 -0400
Subject: Mortgage Rates Are LOW!!!
Message-ID: <200207160416.AAA19183@switchvw.fph.local>


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 [5]





From jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 16 01:50:52 2002
From: jtrjtrjtr2001 at yahoo.com (gfgs pedo)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:50:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Atmospheric noise & fair coin flipping
Message-ID: <20020716085052.23781.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com>


hi,

thanx a lot,there is one more doubt.

>The rules of physics are those that don't change
> from time to time, or
> place to place

i tend to disagree with this.

the hierarchy goes like

okay let us say that two bodies with mass attract each
other.

it was an observation of a physical body,then we make
a mathametical model of the phenomenon.
Based on the mathametical model we make laws of
physics.

The mathametical observations rely on the parameters
that are taken to make the mathametical model.
if the parameters changes,the mathametical model will
have to be changed and new laws have to be brought.

with what certainy can we say that additional
parameters will not be added or removed and that the
laws of physics will stay true for ever?
If a new parameter ever gets added may be two bodies
with mass may repell each other.
can we say that these parameters will never change?

Regards Data.


--- Optimizzin Al-gorithym <al at qaeda.org> wrote:
> At 05:45 AM 7/14/02 -0700, gfgs pedo wrote:
> >it is said that atmospheric noise is random but how
> >can we say for sure.
> 
> Physics, chaos, the growth of initial uncertainty as
> systems evolve,
> energy/time required to make measurements to
> arbitrary precision.
> 
> 
> >what if the parameters giverning atmospheric noise
> >vary frm time 2 time.
> 
> The rules of physics are those that don't change
> from time to time, or
> place to place.
> Certainly the e.g., wind speed does.
> 
> >so can we say atmospheric noise is random or a coin
> >flipping is random-only because it passes die hard
> >test or other randomness tests-which is an
> indicator
> >of randomness with the current defenition of
> >parameters in determing randomness?
> 
> No, since 'anything through a whitener passes' these
> tests.
> The integers (0, 1, 2..) fed into DES will pass.
> (Equivalently) A low-entropy source fed into a hash
> will pass.
> 
> [Historical note: this is why Intel should make its
> raw RNG
> data available in chips with whitened-output RNG
> functions]
> 
> To have a true RNG, You *must* have a physical
> understanding of the
> source
> of entropy whence you distill the pure bits (whether
> or not
> you feed it into a whitener after distillation). 
> Precisely
> because a 'black box' may be a deterministic (if you
> know
> the secret) PRNG.  By 'distill' I mean reduce N bits
> to M,
> N > M, in such a way as to increase the entropy of
> the
> resultant M bits.
> 
> 
> >is there truly random or that we can say with
> certain
> >degre of confidence that they are nearly random as
> all
> >current evidence poits so.
> 
> 'Random' should be taken to mean 'ignorant of'.  It
> suffices
> that we (and our adversary) are ignorant of the
> detailed conditions
> inside a noise diode, unstable atomic nucleus,
> atmospheric
> (or FM radio) noise receiver, etc.  Philosophical
> discussions about
> 'true
> randomness' ("Is there a deeper/smaller level of
> description in
> which apparently-random events are based or emerge
> from?")
> are beyond the scope of this rant.
> 




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
http://autos.yahoo.com




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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 16 04:41:54 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 06:41:54 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Bush to unveil Homeland Security strategy - July 16, 2002
Message-ID: <3D340682.30BD0BC5@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/07/16/homeland.security/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Tue Jul 16 03:45:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 06:45:02 EDT
Subject: Super Blue Stuff Pain Relief - On Sale Today!
Message-ID: <200207161058.DAA50740@s1104.mb00.net>

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From eresrch at eskimo.com  Tue Jul 16 07:11:59 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 07:11:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Atmospheric noise & fair coin flipping
In-Reply-To: <20020716085052.23781.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207160704170.6489-100000@eskimo.com>


On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, gfgs pedo wrote:

> it was an observation of a physical body,then we make
> a mathametical model of the phenomenon.
> Based on the mathametical model we make laws of
> physics.

Right, but the assumptions of the model are stated up front.

> The mathametical observations rely on the parameters
> that are taken to make the mathametical model.
> if the parameters changes,the mathametical model will
> have to be changed and new laws have to be brought.

Whoa!  You have gone too far here.  The original assumptions
and the original model still hold, what changes are the
assumptions.  You get new models, but that doesn't mean
the old model doesn't work any more - it means you have to
be careful with assumptions.

> with what certainy can we say that additional
> parameters will not be added or removed and that the
> laws of physics will stay true for ever?
> If a new parameter ever gets added may be two bodies
> with mass may repell each other.
> can we say that these parameters will never change?

We can be certain that we will learn more as time goes on.
Our present models work well for the assumptions we make
now, and as time goes on we'll learn how those assumptions
interfere with observations of how nature works.  How we
ask questions determines what kinds of answers we get -
so it's really important to understand the basic assumptions
behind any "law of physics".

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike





From bcliff7252 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 16 17:55:09 2002
From: bcliff7252 at hotmail.com (bcliff7252 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:55:09 -1600
Subject: FW:> Herbal Supplements only $24.99! Limited supply.            24424
Message-ID: <000028ff24f0$00003755$0000648e@atlantisfalling.com>

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From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Jul 16 09:28:58 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:28:58 -0700
Subject: Atmospheric noise & fair coin flipping
Message-ID: <3D3449CA.E1BB06E3@cdc.gov>


At 01:50 AM 7/16/02 -0700, gfgs pedo wrote:

>>The rules of physics are those that don't change
>> from time to time, or
>> place to place
>
>i tend to disagree with this.

...

>The mathametical observations rely on the parameters
>that are taken to make the mathametical model.
>if the parameters changes,the mathametical model will
>have to be changed and new laws have to be brought.

Certainly.  Newton *replaced* dead-greek 'physics' but
Newton was *subsumed* (ie compatibly refined) by Einstein.
If e.g., you could determine that the gravitational constant
varies with time, that would have to be added to the model.


>with what certainy can we say that additional
>parameters will not be added or removed and that the
>laws of physics will stay true for ever?

We can't say that; but we can only operate as if they
were constant.

If the laws of physics vary with distance from Sol,
for instance, astrophysicists are *fucked*


>If a new parameter ever gets added may be two bodies
>with mass may repell each other.

If evidence supports this then sure, a new quality/quantity may
be introduced.  Does dark matter have spin :-)

>can we say that these parameters will never change?

No, but without evidence that they do, Mr. Occam (who
had to leave his razor at the security checkpoint)
suggests minimizing the number of free variables and trying to work
with an assumption of constancy as much as possible.




From ejayski at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 16 19:45:27 2002
From: ejayski at hotmail.com (ejayski at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:45:27 -1600
Subject: FW:>Re: Men & Women, Add a little spice to life!                   24495
Message-ID: <00003d3f6f07$00001c63$00003903@baultar.qc.ca>

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Jul 16 11:02:33 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:02:33 -0700
Subject: Which universe are we in? (tossing tennis balls into 
  spinning  props)
In-Reply-To: <B95A18E6.21BF6%zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <344C7C2C-98E6-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, July 16, 2002, at 10:39  AM, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
>
> Oh dear. QM does rule out internal states.
>
> I didn't think I would have to explain why I capitalised "Bell", but 
> perhaps
> it was a bit too subtle. Google "Bell" and "inequalities", and go from
> there.

I disagree. Bell's Inequality is not dependent on QM...it's a 
mathematical statement about the outcomes of measurements where 
stochastic processes play a role. The fact that QM is strongly believed 
to involve stochastic processes is why Bell's inequality shows up 
prominently in QM. However, we cannot then use B.I. to prove things 
about QM.

A more persuasive proof of why hidden variables are not viable in QM is 
the work done on extending some theorems about Hilbert spaces. Namely, 
Gleason's theorem from the mid-50s, later extended by Kochen and Specker 
in the 1960s. The Kochen-Specker Theorem is accepted as the "no go" 
proof that hidden variables is not viable.

>
> The uncertainty principle was generally considered to rule out internal
> states long before Bell, though. Since around 1930, I think. Whether 
> QM/the
> uncertainty principle is wrong is a different question.

Until K-S and related proofs, Bohm's internal states model (hidden 
variables) was not considered to be ruled out.

I recommend a recent book, "Interpreting the Quantum World," by Jeffrey 
Bub, 1997. He summarizes the various interpretations of quantum reality 
and explains the K-S theorem reasonably well. The Asher Peres book on QM 
is also good.

But, as I said, I accidentally beamed the message into this world. Those 
interested in discussing quantum reality and things like that should 
look into lists oriented in this direction. I don't think most list 
members here have the interest or the background, so discussions would 
be swamped by failures to communicate, abuses of language, and tangent 
rays.

--Tim May
"They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, 
and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually 
read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the 
vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the 
USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police state




From adam at zeroknowledge.com  Tue Jul 16 08:25:15 2002
From: adam at zeroknowledge.com (Adam Shostack)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:25:15 -0400
Subject: Call for Papers, WORKSHOP ON PRIVACY ENHANCING TECHNOLOGIES 2003
Message-ID: <20020716152515.GA13478@zeroknowledge.com>

Please re-distribute as appropriate...

----- Forwarded message from Roger Dingledine <arma at mit.edu> -----

                            CALL FOR PAPERS

            WORKSHOP ON PRIVACY ENHANCING TECHNOLOGIES 2003

                            Mar 26-28 2003
                           Dresden, Germany
                       Hotel Elbflorenz Dresden

                     http://www.petworkshop.org/

Privacy and anonymity are increasingly important in the online world.
Corporations and governments are starting to realize their power to
track users and their behavior, and restrict the ability to publish
or retrieve documents. Approaches to protecting individuals, groups,
and even companies and governments from such profiling and censorship
have included decentralization, encryption, and distributed trust.

Building on the success of the first anonymity and unobservability
workshop (held in Berkeley in July 2000) and the second workshop
(held in San Francisco in April 2002), this third workshop addresses
the design and realization of such privacy and anti-censorship services
for the Internet and other communication networks. These workshops bring
together anonymity and privacy experts from around the world to discuss
recent advances and new perspectives.

The workshop seeks submissions from academia and industry presenting
novel research on all theoretical and practical aspects of privacy
technologies, as well as experimental studies of fielded systems.
We encourage submissions from other communities such as law and business
that present their perspectives on technological issues. As in past years,
we will publish proceedings after the workshop.

Suggested topics include but are not restricted to:

* Efficient (technically or economically) realization of privacy services
* Techniques for censorship resistance
* Anonymous communication systems (theory or practice)
* Anonymous publishing systems (theory or practice)
* Attacks on anonymity systems (eg traffic analysis)
* New concepts in anonymity systems
* Protocols that preserve anonymity/privacy
* Models for anonymity and unobservability
* Models for threats to privacy
* Novel relations of payment mechanisms and anonymity
* Privacy-preserving/protecting access control
* Privacy-enhanced data authentication/certification 
* Profiling, data mining, and data protection technologies
* Reliability, robustness, and attack resistance in privacy systems
* Providing/funding privacy infrastructures (eg volunteer vs business)
* Pseudonyms, identity, linkability, and trust
* Privacy, anonymity, and peer-to-peer
* Usability issues and user interfaces for PETs
* Policy, law, and human rights -- anonymous systems in practice
* Incentive-compatible solutions to privacy protection
* Economics of privacy systems
* Fielded systems and techniques for enhancing privacy in existing systems

                           IMPORTANT DATES

Submission deadline                                 December 2, 2002
Acceptance notification                             February 7, 2003
Camera-ready copy for preproceedings                   March 7, 2003
Camera-ready copy for proceedings                     April 28, 2003

                               CHAIRS

Roger Dingledine, The Free Haven Project, USA
Andreas Pfitzmann, Dresden University of Technology, Germany

                          PROGRAM COMMITTEE

Alessandro Acquisti, SIMS, UC Berkeley, USA
Stefan Brands, Credentica, Canada
Jean Camp, Kennedy School, Harvard University, USA
David Chaum, USA
Richard Clayton, University of Cambridge, England
Lorrie Cranor, AT&T Labs - Research, USA
Roger Dingledine, The Free Haven Project, USA (program chair)
Hannes Federrath, Freie Universitaet Berlin, Germany
Ian Goldberg, Zero Knowledge Systems, Canada
Marit Hansen, Independent Centre for Privacy Protection
  Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Markus Jakobsson, RSA Laboratories, USA
Brian Levine, University of Massachusetts at Amherst, USA
David Martin, University of Massachusetts at Lowell, USA
Andreas Pfitzmann, Dresden University of Technology, Germany
Matthias Schunter, IBM Zurich Research Lab, Switzerland
Andrei Serjantov, University of Cambridge, England
Adam Shostack, Zero Knowledge Systems, Canada
Paul Syverson, Naval Research Lab, USA

                          PAPER SUBMISSIONS

Submitted papers must not substantially overlap with papers that have
been published or that are simultaneously submitted to a journal
or a conference with proceedings.  Papers should be at most 15
pages excluding the bibliography and well-marked appendices (using
11-point font and reasonable margins), and at most 20 pages total.
Committee members are not required to read the appendices and the paper
should be intelligible without them.  The paper should start with the
title, names of authors and an abstract.  The introduction should give
some background and summarize the contributions of the paper at a
level appropriate for a non-specialist reader.  During the workshop
preproceedings will be made available.  Final versions are not due until
after the workshop, giving the authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on discussions during the meeting.

Submissions can be made in Postscript or PDF format.  To submit a paper,
send a plain ASCII text email to <arma at mit.edu> containing the title and
abstract of the paper, the authors' names, email and postal addresses,
phone and fax numbers, and identification of the contact author.  To the
same message, attach your submission (as a MIME attachment). Papers
must be received by December 2, 2002.  Notification of acceptance
or rejection will be sent to authors no later than February 7, 2003,
and authors will have the opportunity to revise for the preproceedings
version by March 7, 2003.  Submission implies that, if accepted, the
author(s) agree to publish in the proceedings and to sign a standard
copyright release, and also that an author of the paper will present it
at the workshop.

----- End forwarded message -----

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From FreePasses at sexy-emails.com  Tue Jul 16 08:53:24 2002
From: FreePasses at sexy-emails.com (FreePasses at sexy-emails.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:53:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Free Lifetime Passes Teen Mega-Site!
Message-ID: <200207161553.g6GFrO325976@w0.xxxletter.com>

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From elyn at consect.com  Tue Jul 16 09:29:32 2002
From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:29:32 -0400
Subject: 385-3 vote: House OKs life sentences for hackers
Message-ID: <003201c22ce5$f7e7ed20$f2d66c42@nyc.rr.com>


seems the cyber-terrorist FUD is starting to hit the fan ...
;~(
e

House OKs life sentences for hackers
But time may run out for computer crime bill in Senate
http://www.msnbc.com/news/780923.asp

WASHINGTON, July 15 - The House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly
Monday to create a new punishment of life imprisonment for malicious
computer hackers. By a 385-3 vote, the House approved a computer crime bill
that also expands police ability to conduct Internet or telephone
eavesdropping without first obtaining a court order.

<snip>

"Until we secure our cyber infrastructure, a few keystrokes and an
Internet connection is all one needs to disable the economy and endanger
lives," sponsor Lamar Smith, R-Tex., said earlier this year. "A mouse can be
just as dangerous as a bullet or a bomb."

<snip>




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Jul 16 11:39:30 2002
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:39:30 -0600
Subject: 385-3 vote: House OKs life sentences for hackers
Message-ID: <3D346862.C866116E@lsil.com>


"Elyn Wollensky" <elyn at consect.com>  wrote :
> 
> seems the cyber-terrorist FUD is starting to hit the fan ...
> ;~(
> e
> 
> House OKs life sentences for hackers
> But time may run out for computer crime bill in Senate
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/780923.asp
> 
> WASHINGTON, July 15 - The House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly
> Monday to create a new punishment of life imprisonment for malicious
> computer hackers. By a 385-3 vote, the House approved a computer crime bill
> that also expands police ability to conduct Internet or telephone
> eavesdropping without first obtaining a court order.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> "Until we secure our cyber infrastructure, a few keystrokes and an
> Internet connection is all one needs to disable the economy and endanger
> lives," sponsor Lamar Smith, R-Tex., said earlier this year. "A mouse can be
> just as dangerous as a bullet or a bomb."
> 
> <snip>
> 
Explain to me how someone who puts porno on a USAF website is any worse
than someone who spraypaints a bridge abutment? Isn't community service
a typical outcome of the latter getting caught?

Explain to me how a computer hacker is more dangerous than a drunk
driver on the freeway? A hacker who interrupts power could be said to
put hundreds or thousands of lives at risk but so could a drunk driver
who spends an hour on the freeway. One is parallel the other is more or
less serial, so what?

I guess rationality has little to do with what we're seeing : enabling
technologies scare totalitarians.

Mike




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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:28:53 -0400
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From webmaster at hyundaitrade.biz  Mon Jul 15 21:55:05 2002
From: webmaster at hyundaitrade.biz ("paul smith" <paul smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:55:05 +0900
Subject: Personal Alcohol Detector
Message-ID: <200207160450.g6G4oKU5018674@ak47.algebra.com>

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From elenoguerrero at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 16 23:15:18 2002
From: elenoguerrero at hotmail.com (elenoguerrero at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:15:18 -1600
Subject: Herbal Supplements: No Prescription Required                       9081
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From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Tue Jul 16 12:02:01 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:02:01 EDT
Subject: Don't get caught without your pets medication
Message-ID: <200207161909.MAA39155@s1089.mb00.net>

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From die at die.com  Tue Jul 16 12:15:31 2002
From: die at die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:15:31 -0400
Subject: Another restriction on technology - cell and cordless scanning
  now a felony
Message-ID: <20020716151531.C19588@pig.die.com>


	The House just passed the Cyber Electronic Security Act last night
(7/15/02) by an overwhelming margin of 385-3.

	Buried in an otherwise draconian bill that raises penalties for
computer hacking that causes death or serious injury to life in prison
and allows government monitoring of communications and email without
warrants in even more circumstances is the following seeming obscure
language:


> SEC. 108. PROTECTING PRIVACY.
>
> (a) Section 2511- Section 2511(4) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
>
> (1) by striking paragraph (b); and
>
> (2) by redesignating paragraph (c) as paragraph (b).



	For those of you who don't realize what this means ....


	Section 2511 subsection 4 of title 18 (the ECPA) currently
reads as foilows....  the CESA will strike part  (b) of this language.

	Penalties..

>  (a)
>	
>   Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection or in subsection
>  (5), whoever violates subsection (1) of this section shall be fined 
>   under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
>
>	
	[The following section will be eliminated by the new law...]

>  (b)   
>
>   If the offense is a first offense under paragraph (a) of this subsection
>  and is not for a tortious or illegal purpose or for purposes of direct
>  or indirect commercial advantage or private commercial gain, and the
>  wire or electronic communication with respect to which the offense under
>  paragraph (a) is a radio communication that is not scrambled, encrypted,
>  or transmitted using modulation techniques the essential parameters of
>  which have been withheld from the public with the intention of
>  preserving the privacy of such communication, then -
>
>  (i)
>
>    if the communication is not the radio portion of a cellular telephone
>   communication, a cordless telephone communication that is transmitted
>   between the cordless telephone handset and the base unit, a public land
>   mobile radio service communication or a paging service communication,
>   and the conduct is not that described in subsection (5), the offender
>   shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or
>  both; and
>
>  (ii)
> 
>    if the communication is the radio portion of a cellular telephone
>   communication, a cordless telephone communication that is transmitted
>   between the cordless telephone handset and the base unit, a public land
>   mobile radio service communication or a paging service communication,
>   the offender shall be fined under this title.



	What this does is change the penalty for the first offense of
intercepting an unscrambled and unencrypted radio communication that is
not supposed to be listened to (eg AMPS cellular calls, commercial
pagers, cordless phones, common carrier communications) for hobby
purposes (eg not a tortuous or illegal purpose or for direct or indirect
commercial advantage or private commercial gain) from a misdemeanor (one
year or less prison time) to a federal FELONY (5 years prison time).

	And further this changes the status of the specific offense of
listening to a cell call, cordless call, a pager, or a public land
mobile radio service communication (eg a telephone interconnect) from a
minor offense for which one can be fined a maximum of $500 to a federal
FELONY for which one can be imprisoned for up to 5 years.

	In effect this removes a safe harbor created during the
negotiations over the ECPA back in 1985-86 which ensured that first
offenses for hobby radio listening were only treated as minor crimes -
after this law is passed simply intentionally tuning a common scanner to
the (non-blocked) cordless phone frequencies could be prosecuted as a
felony for which one could serve 5 years in jail.

	And in case any of my readers have forgotten, a federal felony
conviction (even without any jail time) deprives one of the right to
vote, to own firearms, to be employed in a number of high level jobs and
professions, to hold certain professional licenses and permits, and
important for certain readers of these lists  absolutely eliminates for
life the possibility of holding any kind of security clearance whatever
(a recent change in the rules) - something required for many if not most
interesting government and government related jobs.

	So merely being stopped by a cop with the cordless phone
frequencies in your scanner could conceivably result in life long loss
of important rights and privileges.

	For some of you out there this may seem small potatoes and 
irrelevant since it merely changes the penalties for an already illegal
act (which you are not supposed to be engaged in) and doesn't make
anything new illegal.   But this is a rather naive view.   

	The federal government was certainly not going to prosecute a
hobbyist for radio communications interception under the old version of
the ECPA if the worst penalty that could be levied was a $500 fine -
there simply is not the budget or the staff to prosecute people for what
would be a very minor offense (equivalent of a speeding ticket).   And
even prosecuting hobbyists for more serious interception (eg not
cellular, cordless or pagers) was still a misdemeanor offense prosecution
with jail time unlikely.

	So in practice the only prosecutions were of people who clearly
had a commercial purpose or otherwise engaged in egregious and public
(eg the Newt call) conduct - no  ever got prosecuted.  And this
was doubtless the intent of Congress back in 1985-86 - it would be
illegal to monitor certain radio traffic but only a minor offense if you
did so for hobby type personal curiosity or just to hack with the
equipment or technology - and a serious felony if one engaged in such
conduct for the purpose of committing a crime or gaining financial or
commercial advantage (eg true spying or electronic eavesdropping).

	But after this bill is signed into law (and clearly it will be),
it will be quite possible for a federal prosecution of a hobbyist for
illegal radio listening to be justified as a serious felony offense
worth the time and effort and money to try and put in jail even if the
offense is not for a commercial purpose or part of an illegal scheme.
Thus "radio hacker" prosecutions have now become possible, and even
perhaps probable.

	And federal prosecutors and law enforcement agents get career
advancement and attention from senior management in their agencies in
direct proportion to the seriousness of the offense they are
investigating and prosecuting - nobody ever advances to senior agent for
going after jaywalkers, thus by raising the level of less than legal
hobby radio monitoring offenses from a jaywalking class offense to a
serious felony for which there can be real jail time it becomes much
more interesting from a career perspective to prosecute radio listening
offenses.

	And needless to say, such prosecutions would be shooting fish in
 a barrel type things given that many individuals are quite open on
Internet newsgroups and mailing lists about their activities.

	And of course this MAJOR change in the ECPA also has the effect
of making the rather ambiguous and unclear meaning of "readily
accessible to the general public" in 18 USC 2510 and 2511 much more
significant, since intercepting something that isn't readily accessible
to the general public is now clearly a serious crime even if done for
hobby purposes as a first offense.   Thus one has to be much more
careful about making sure that the signal is a legal one... 

	
	And further than all of this, and perhaps even MUCH more
significant to radio listeners on Internet scanner lists ....

	The careful, thoughtful reader will note that section 4 has been
revised a bit lately, and that this new section 4 (see above) now makes
it a federal felony with 5 years in jail penalties to violate section 1
INCLUDING the following provisions of section 1:


	18 USC 2511:

> (1)
>     Except as otherwise specifically provided in this chapter any person who -
>
> (c)
>
>   intentionally discloses, or endeavors to disclose, to any other person
>  the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication, knowing or
>  having reason to know that the information was obtained through the
>  interception of a wire, oral, or electronic communication in violation
>  of this subsection;
>
> (d)
> 
>   intentionally uses, or endeavors to use, the contents of any wire, oral,
>  or electronic communication, knowing or having reason to know that the
>  information was obtained through the interception of a wire, oral, or
>  electronic communication in violation of this subsection; or
>
>
>    shall be punished as provided in subsection (4) or shall be subject
>   to suit as provided in subsection (5).


	This seems to have changed the status of revealing as part of a
hobby list posting any hint of the contents of a radio communications
that might or might not have been legally intercepted from a potentially
minor misdemeanor offense or less to a serious felony.   Thus if a court
finds that any communication reported on an Internet list was not
legally intercepted, felony penalties apply for publishing the
information even if the interception was for hobby purposes (which of
course most scanner list intercepts are).
	
	Thus the legal climate has fundamentally changed, and one can
assume that since the Bush administration has been pushing for the
passage of this bill that they perhaps intend to start prosecuting at
least some category of radio  under the new provisions - no
doubt as an example meant to scare the rest of us into handing our
radios in at the nearest police station...

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die at die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18




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From declan at well.com  Tue Jul 16 15:26:57 2002
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:26:57 -0400
Subject: Microsoft censors Newsweek - and new version of TCPA FAQ
In-Reply-To: <E17SKfI-0005OC-00@wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk>; from
  Ross.Anderson@cl.cam.ac.uk on Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 05:50:04PM +0100
References: <E17SKfI-0005OC-00@wisbech.cl.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20020716182656.A24724@cluebot.com>


Removing the article after a few weeks is consistent with MSNBC.com's
long-standing article expiration policy. Some articles stay around for
years, while others disappear within a month. MSNBC.com reporters have
told me there's no logic to this -- and that they're personally
frustrated too.

Anyway I wouldn't read too much into the link no longer working (not
saying that Ross is, but others may).

-Declan


On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 05:50:04PM +0100, Ross Anderson wrote:
> I see that MSNBC has pulled the original article on Palladium:
> 
>         http://www.msnbc.com/news/770551.asp
> 
> Anyway, I have just put up version 1.0 of the TCPA / Palladium FAQ
> at the same URL:
> 
>         http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> Ross
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Cryptography Mailing List
> Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk  Tue Jul 16 10:39:34 2002
From: zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk (Peter Fairbrother)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:39:34 +0100
Subject: Which universe are we in? (tossing tennis balls into 
  spinning  props)
In-Reply-To: <3D33152E.792B9B0B@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <B95A18E6.21BF6%zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk>


> Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> At 03:27 PM 7/15/02 +0100, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
>>> Optimizzin Al-gorithym wrote:
>> 
>>> And while QM can't help you with a particular atom, it also doesn't
> say
>>> that its impossible that knowledge of internal states of the atom
>>> wouldn't help you predict its fragmentation.
>> 
>> Yes it does.
>> 
>> Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Ring a Bell?
> 
> The uncertainty principle says that there is a limit on the information
> about
> position and change in position that you can collect.  It does not rule
> out
> internal states.  For instance, you could generate particles with a
> certain property
> which you do not have to measure to know that they have that property.
> 
> It is a logical mistake to think that because you can't see it in 2002,
> you can't ever
> measure it, or it doesn't exist.  When something appears 'random', it is
> because of
> (wholly normal) ignorance on our part.   Sometimes 'randomness' is used
> to
> shut off analytic machinery, much like 'God'  (this latter idea is
> Minsky's).

Oh dear. QM does rule out internal states.

I didn't think I would have to explain why I capitalised "Bell", but perhaps
it was a bit too subtle. Google "Bell" and "inequalities", and go from
there. 

The uncertainty principle was generally considered to rule out internal
states long before Bell, though. Since around 1930, I think. Whether QM/the
uncertainty principle is wrong is a different question.

-- Peter Fairbrother

ps Are you a PFY (or a PFO), or is your name really Variola? 




From biginvestmentg2v2k2 at vhost.hongkong.com  Tue Jul 16 05:39:42 2002
From: biginvestmentg2v2k2 at vhost.hongkong.com (biginvestment)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:39:42 +0800
Subject: =?GB2312?B?xvPStbXNwa61xND7tKvK1rbO?=   cypherpunks
Message-ID: <200207161243.HAA10471@einstein.ssz.com>


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From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Tue Jul 16 17:46:01 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:46:01 EDT
Subject: Prove me wrong!
Message-ID: <200207170058.RAA31464@s1078.mb00.net>

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From unsubs-706b2e444a-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Tue Jul 16 18:34:34 2002
From: unsubs-706b2e444a-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com (Special Deals)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:34:34 +0000
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Message-ID: <200207170141.UAA19770@einstein.ssz.com>

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From decoy at iki.fi  Tue Jul 16 15:36:58 2002
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:36:58 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: millicent ghettoes
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.30.0207170116540.22836-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>


In the wake of the recent public goods postings and some related traffic
on a couple of Finnish mailing lists, the concept of transaction costs has
somehow managed to dominate my time. That sort of thing has a lot of
unlikely consequences, some of which I think are highly CP relevant.

While I tend to agree with Tim about the shorter term trouble with
micropayments -- the fact that such payments, well, do not pay -- I'd say
in the longer term micropayments are what counts, and not perhaps
anonymity. The reason is, most of the economy is, and I think will remain,
over-ground. People really don't have enough to hide to make anonymous
payments mainstream quickly enough. Sure, they have their applications,
some of them radical. It's true they will shake the society quite a bit.
But the shadier applications can always be controlled, given the
vulnerability of the anonymity infrastructure itself.

But micropayments, they are another deal entirely. If and when they become
practical, we can envision a whole range of previous unheard-of mass
transactions taking place. The kind which need millions plus people before
they actually become profitable. This is the situation I alluded to in the
public goods example, and any market oriented solution to the problem of
coordination will eventually have to tackle the issue of aggregating the
cost. That's the problem micropayments, as an idea, are meant to solve.

So, what's so notable about such transactions? Simply the fact that they
are new. In the past entire classes of transactions (the foremost example
would be the ones we nowadays see in the international financial markets)
have been enabled by lowered transaction costs. I don't think the spread
of micropayments will be an exception to the rule. In fact I would argue
that the only *lasting* surprise offered by AP was the fact that when mild
wants of large numbers of people can be coordinated, economic efficiency
can lead to significant, and heretofore unexpected, outcomes (i.e. getting
a notable figure killed).

In the end I think such new classes of financial transactions, borne of
lowered transaction costs, will be far more significant to the society as
a whole than anonymity. I also think this is the essence of what is
driving the wider P2P cirlce, at the moment, though few people seem to
realize it. So, I would deem it quite likely that the millicent ghetto
will eventually run over us.
-- 
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From cristy2999 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 17 11:29:40 2002
From: cristy2999 at hotmail.com (cristy2999 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:29:40 -1600
Subject: EXTREME COLON CLEANSER SUMMER SALE!!                15169
Message-ID: <00003bd46ec4$0000157a$0000098b@.>

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From pitster26912446 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 16 23:32:36 2002
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:32:36 -0400
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Message-ID: <200207170629.g6H6TfJ11893@linuxmail.tcitc.com.tw>


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From nobody at cypherpunks.to  Tue Jul 16 18:52:04 2002
From: nobody at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 03:52:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Another restriction on technology - cell and cordless
  scanning now 	 felony
Message-ID: <ddd78587fd977a410afbcad1ff554bae@cypherpunks.to>


On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:15:31 -0400, you wrote:
> 	Thus the legal climate has fundamentally changed, and one can
> assume that since the Bush administration has been pushing for the
> passage of this bill that they perhaps intend to start prosecuting at
> least some category of radio  under the new provisions - no
> doubt as an example meant to scare the rest of us into handing our
> radios in at the nearest police station...

Shouldn't we turn in our guns first? Or is it our books? Maybe it would be smart to get rid of any 
compilers, don't you think?

We have a national secret police now that no longer has to start with a crime and then find a 
criminal, rather they can start with a person and find a way to classify him a criminal. Radio 
frequencies just give them one more way to put a person in jail for five years. It is actually 
nice of them to not just suspend habeas corpus universally.




From pitster263620373 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 17 02:12:49 2002
From: pitster263620373 at hotmail.com (pitster263620373 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 05:12:49 -0400
Subject: Clean off your desk, now clean up your computer
Message-ID: <200207171024.FAA23498@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jayh at 1st.net  Wed Jul 17 03:05:27 2002
From: jayh at 1st.net (jayh at 1st.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 06:05:27 -0400
Subject: CNN.com - Hackers help counter Net censorship - July 15, 2002 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715163634.7895y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3D350927.30975.194D71@localhost>


Does any one know what happened the the hactivisimo website?

It was cited even on CNN, now it seems unavailable.

j

On 15 Jul 2002 at 16:36, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/07/15/censorship.reut/index.html
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>               When I die, I would like to be born again as me.
> 
>                                             Hugh Hefner
>      ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
>      jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org
> 
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 





From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Wed Jul 17 03:46:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 06:46:02 EDT
Subject: Shower Head used at World Famous Resorts - On Sale!
Message-ID: <200207171059.DAA23649@s1085.mb00.net>

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From mv at cdc.gov  Wed Jul 17 10:04:29 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:04:29 -0700
Subject: Another restriction on technology - cell and cordless
  scanning  now  a felony
Message-ID: <3D35A39D.CB248659@cdc.gov>


Nice post,

Could this be warped into affecting wardriving for 802.11b connections?
The basestation's emissions could be considered 'private' even though
they're
not.  The traffic could contain unencrypted voice packets, too.



At 03:15 PM 7/16/02 -0400, Dave Emery wrote:
> The House just passed the Cyber Electronic Security Act last night
>(7/15/02) by an overwhelming margin of 385-3.
>
> What this does is change the penalty for the first offense of
>intercepting an unscrambled and unencrypted radio communication that is

>not supposed to be listened to (eg AMPS cellular calls, commercial
>pagers, cordless phones, common carrier communications) for hobby
>purposes (eg not a tortuous or illegal purpose or for direct or
indirect
>commercial advantage or private commercial gain) from a misdemeanor
(one
>year or less prison time) to a federal FELONY (5 years prison time).
>
> And further this changes the status of the specific offense of
>listening to a cell call, cordless call, a pager, or a public land
>mobile radio service communication (eg a telephone interconnect) from a

>minor offense for which one can be fined a maximum of $500 to a federal

>FELONY for which one can be imprisoned for up to 5 years.




From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Wed Jul 17 08:46:01 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:46:01 EDT
Subject: Earn Extra Income Working from Home!
Message-ID: <200207171559.IAA11071@s1072.mb00.net>

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From wjjzzs at wjjzzs.com  Wed Jul 17 12:16:21 2002
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:16:21 -0500
Subject: Are you a sanitary ware distributor?
Message-ID: <200207171916.OAA32582@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ben at algroup.co.uk  Wed Jul 17 06:43:47 2002
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:43:47 +0100
Subject: Virtuallizing Palladium
References: <2a5159f3ab2dd9e1f0ba3f21926d1c4d@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3D357493.1010809@algroup.co.uk>


Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Ben Laurie wrote:
> 
>>Albion Zeglin wrote:
>>
>>>Similar to DeCSS, only one Palladium chip needs to be reverse engineered and
>>>it's key(s) broken to virtualize the machine.
>>
>>If you break one machine's key:
>>
>>a) You won't need to virtualise it
>>
>>b) It won't be getting any new software licensed to it
> 
> 
> This is true, if you do like DeCSS and try to publish software with the
> key in it.  The content consortium will put the cert for that key onto
> a CRL, and the key will stop working.
> 
> The other possibility is to simply keep the key secret and use it to strip
> DRM protection from content, then release the now-free data publicly.
> This will work especially well if the companies offer free downloads of
> content with some kind of restrictions that you can strip off.  If you
> have to pay for each download before you can release it for free, then
> you better be a pretty generous guy.
> 
> Or maybe you can get paid for your efforts.  This could be the true
> killer app for anonymous e-cash.

Heh. Cool!

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html       http://www.thebunker.net/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From die at die.com  Wed Jul 17 12:28:01 2002
From: die at die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:28:01 -0400
Subject: Another restriction on technology - cell and cordless
  scanning  now  a felony
In-Reply-To: <3D35A39D.CB248659@cdc.gov>; from mv@cdc.gov on Wed, Jul
  17, 2002 at 10:04:29AM -0700
References: <3D35A39D.CB248659@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <20020717152801.E1116@pig.die.com>


On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 10:04:29AM -0700, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
> Nice post,
> 
	Thanks - and sorry for the typos - never trust a dyslexic to proofread...


> Could this be warped into affecting wardriving for 802.11b connections?
> The basestation's emissions could be considered 'private' even though
> they're
> not.  The traffic could contain unencrypted voice packets, too.
> 


	18 USC  2511 (the ECPA) reads ...

> 
> 
>     Except as otherwise specifically provided in this chapter any person
>   who 
>
>   (a)
>    intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or
>   procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept, any
>   wire, oral, or electronic communication;

 ....

>     shall be punished as provided in subsection (4) or shall be subject to
>   suit as provided in subsection (5).

  ....   THE CRITICAL EXCEPTIONS FOR RADIO SIGNALS FOLLOW...


> (g)
>  It shall not be unlawful under this chapter or chapter 121 of
>  this title for any person -
>
>   (i)
>   to intercept or access an electronic communication made through an
>   electronic communication system that is configured so that such
>   electronic communication is readily accessible to the general public;
>
>
>   (ii)
>   to intercept any radio communication which is transmitted -
>
>     (I)
>    by any station for the use of the general public, or that relates to
>    ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress;
>
>     (II)
>    by any governmental, law enforcement, civil defense, private land
>    mobile, or public safety communications system, including police and
>    fire, readily accessible to the general public;
>
>     (III)
>    by a station operating on an authorized frequency within the bands
>    allocated to the amateur, citizens band, or general mobile radio
>    services; or
>
>     (IV)
>    by any marine or aeronautical communications system;
>
>
> (iii)
>     to engage in any conduct which -
>
>      (I)
>    is prohibited by section 633 of the Communications Act of 1934; or
>
>      (II)
>    is excepted from the application of section 705(a) of the Communications
>    Act of 1934 by section 705(b) of that Act;
>
>
> (iv)
>    to intercept any wire or electronic communication the transmission of
>    which is causing harmful interference to any lawfully operating station
>    or consumer electronic equipment, to the extent necessary to identify
>    the source of such interference; or
>
> (v)
>    for other users of the same frequency to intercept any radio
>    communication made through a system that utilizes frequencies monitored
>    by individuals engaged in the provision or the use of such system, if
>    such communication is not scrambled or encrypted.




	There is a defination of what "readily accessible to the general
public" means in section 2510:

> (16)

>  ''readily accessible to the general public'' means, with respect to a
> radio communication, that such communication is not -
>
> (A)
>
> scrambled or encrypted;
> 
> (B)
> 
>  transmitted using modulation techniques whose essential parameters have
>  been withheld from the public with the intention of preserving the
>  privacy of such communication;
> 
>  (C)
>
>  carried on a subcarrier or other signal subsidiary to a radio transmission;
>
>  (D)
>
>  transmitted over a communication system provided by a common carrier,
>  unless the communication is a tone only paging system communication;
>
>  or 
>  (E)
>
>  transmitted on frequencies allocated under part 25,
>  subpart D, E, or F of part 74, or part 94 of the Rules of the Federal
>  Communications Commission, unless, in the case of a communication
>  transmitted on a frequency allocated under part 74 that is not
>  exclusively allocated to broadcast auxiliary services, the communication
>  is a two-way voice communication by radio;


	Certainly wardriving for encrypted (WEP) signals is very clearly
illegal (and now a felony by the way - even before the CSEA becomes law).

	And wardriving for any access points provided by common carriers
(becoming more common in some places I understand as carriers go into that
business) would clearly be illegal.

	But the modulation in 802.11 is public... so nothing is wrong
there.   And the frequencies are public (and a ham band to boot)...

	It is quite possible that the frequencies allocated to the amateur
radio service clause would apply and trump everything else - especially
if you are a ham as most of the 2.4 ghz 802.11b band is also allocated
as a ham band.  I know of no court tests of whether the cordless phone
prohibitions (with cordless phones at both 2.4 ghz and 900 mhz which
are both ham bands too) apply to hams intercepting cordless phones that
also operate in those bands... nor how that impacts WEP interception.
	


-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die at die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18




From pitster26309364 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 17 12:51:37 2002
From: pitster26309364 at hotmail.com (CLAUDIA)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:51:37 -0400
Subject: Eliminate your private data now
Message-ID: <200207172058.PAA02213@einstein.ssz.com>

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:17:34 -0400
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From remailer at aarg.net  Wed Jul 17 16:26:09 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:26:09 -0700
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
Message-ID: <f3ae96c8b98e24561acc5b321fcae037@aarg.net>


David Wagner wrote:
> You argue that it would be irrational for content companies to push to
> have DRM mandated.  This is something we could debate at length, but we
> don't need to: rational or not, we already have evidence that content
> companies have pushed, and *are* pushing, for some kind of mandated DRM.
>
> The Hollings bill was interesting not for its success or failure, but
> for what it reveals the content companies' agenda.  It seems plausible
> that its supporters will be back next year with a "compromise" bill --
> plausible enough that we'd better be prepared for such a circumstance.

The CBDTPA, available in text form at
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cbdtpa/hollings.s2048.032102.html,
does not explicitly call for legislating DRM.  In fact the bill is not
very clear about what exactly it does require.  Generally it calls for
standards that satisfy subsections (d) and (e) of section 3.  But (d) is
just a list of generic good features: "(A) reliable; (B) renewable; (C)
resistant to attack; (D) readily implemented; (E) modular; (F) applicable
in multiple technology platforms; (G) extensible; (H) upgradable; (I)
not cost prohibitive; and (2) any software portion of such standards is
based on open source code."

There's nothing in there about DRM or the analog hole specifically.
In fact the only phrase in this list which would not be applicable to any
generic software project is "resistant to attack".  And (e) (misprinted
as (c) in the document) is a consumer protection provision, calling
for support of fair use and home taping of over the air broadcasts.
Neither (d) nor (e) describes what exactly the CBDTPA is supposed to do.

To understand what the technical standards are supposed to protect we
have to look at section 2 of the bill, "Findings", which lays out the
piracy problem as Hollings sees it and calls for government regulation
and mandates for solutions.  But even here, the wording is ambiguous
and does not clearly call for mandating DRM.

The structure of this section consists of a list of statements, followed
by the phrase, "A solution to this problem is technologically feasible
but will require government action, including a mandate to ensure its
swift and ubiquitous adoption."  This phrase appears at points 12,
15 and 19.

The points leading up to #12 refer to the problems of over the air
broadcasts being unencrypted, in contrast with pay cable and satellite
systems.  The points leading up to #15 talk about closing the analog hole.
And the points leading up to #19 discuss file sharing and piracy.

DRM is mentioned in point 5, in terms of it not working well, then
the concept is discussed again in points 20-23, which are the last.
None of these comments are followed by the magic phrase about requiring
a government mandate.

So if you look closely at how these points are laid out, and which ones
get the call for government action, it appears that the main concerns
which the CBDTPA is intended to address are (1) over the air broadcasts
(via the BPDG standard); (2) closing the analog hole (via HDCP and
similar); and (3) piracy via file sharing and P2P systems, which the
media companies would undoubtedly like to see shut down but where they
are unlikely to succeed.  Although DRM is mentioned, there is no clear
call to mandate support for DRM technology, particularly anything similar
to Palladium or the TCPA, which is what we have been discussing.

As pointed out earlier, this is logical, as legislating the TCPA would
be both massively infeasible and also ultimately unhelpful to the goals
of the content companies.  They know they won't be able to use TCPA to
shut down file sharing.  The only way they could approach it using such
a tool would be to have a law requiring a government stamp of approval
on every piece of software that runs.  Surely it will be clear to all
reasonable men what a a non-starter that idea is.




From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Wed Jul 17 13:45:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:45:02 EDT
Subject: Compare & Save Big On Your Auto Insurance! - Get Instant Quotes
Message-ID: <200207172058.NAA77529@s1091.mb00.net>

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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Wed Jul 17 09:30:35 2002
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:30:35 +0300 (EET DST)
Subject: Public Knowledge hopes to turn geeks into geektivists 
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0207171930110.40085-100000@jade.hut.fi>



http://news.com.com/2010-1074-943785.html?tag=politech

   Bring in the geeks
   By Declan McCullagh
   July 15, 2002, 4:00 AM PT

   WASHINGTON--Gigi Sohn hopes that geeks have become so enraged by
   recent anti-piracy schemes that they'll finally want to fight back.

   The 40-year old lawyer, head of the Public Knowledge nonprofit group
   here, plans to recruit a ragtag band of technophiles and train them to
   become a corps of effective political activists on the Internet front.

   To Sohn, this means seizing on widespread discontent created by the
   attempts of Hollywood and the music labels to curtail file-swapping
   networks while promoting sweeping new anti-copying laws and standards.

   E-mail campaigns are easily ignored, and transforming online ire into
   effective political action is hardly a trivial task.

   Geek armies have always been eager to vent in online forums and clog
   the e-mail inboxes of errant congressional types. As far back as 1995,
   over 50,000 peeved Netizens signed an electronic petition slamming the
   Clinton administration's privacy-invasive Clipper Chip.

   [...]




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul 17 21:00:08 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:00:08 -0700
Subject: RIAA escalates attack on music piracy, wants "broadcast
  flag"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020717214639.01b3eeb8@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3D35DAD8.2662.28D4B5F@localhost>


    --    --
> http://news.com.com/2100-1023-944640.html?tag=politech
>
>     RIAA talks tough on Web radio copying By Declan McCullagh 
>     July 17, 2002, 4:50 PM PT
>
>     WASHINGTON--The Recording Industry Association of America 
>     said Wednesday that it has begun pressing for anti-copying 
>     technology in future digital radio standards.
>
>     [...] new federal laws likely would be necessary to compel 
>     software and hardware manufacturers to abide by the 
>     broadcast-only designation.

To repeat for those who came in late.  To stop such copying 
requires a ban on general purpose computers, and the licensing of 
engineers.  Presumably existing computers would not at first be 
criminalized, but new computers would require a special license, 
that would be available only to the specially privileged.

The hardware implementation of a crippled computers for the masses
would be identical to palladium -- except that the palladium
component, instead of merely truthfully reporting whether the
computer is running unauthorized software, would prevent any
unauthorized software from running.

The trouble with palladium is that though it is not quite what the 
RIAA wants, it is alarmingly close. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     zKBfvcYlR1oo8QGr0lJ2ca0tunK5kW6i9f1ZF7Hh
     2xN5FTB2GfWsWZ7G82KGpz4KBWuPxKUmFlrIzaP++




From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 17 18:46:43 2002
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:46:43 -0400
Subject: RIAA escalates attack on music piracy, wants "broadcast flag"
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020717214639.01b3eeb8@mail.well.com>


Photos from event:
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/commerce-drm-rountable-july02.htm

----

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-944640.html?tag=politech

    RIAA talks tough on Web radio copying
    By Declan McCullagh
    July 17, 2002, 4:50 PM PT

    WASHINGTON--The Recording Industry Association of America said
    Wednesday that it has begun pressing for anti-copying technology in
    future digital radio standards.

    Mitch Glazier, the association's top lobbyist, said the RIAA is
    contacting IT and consumer electronics groups to ask them to consider
    a "broadcast flag" for digital music sent through the Internet,
    satellite or cable.

    [...]

    The idea is straightforward: Future hardware and software would treat
    music differently if it were designated as broadcast-only, preventing
    users from saving it or uploading it. Currently programs like
    StreamRipper or StreamCatcher can record streaming music distributed
    through Webcasting.

    But because people might not use these new kinds of music receivers if
    given a choice, new federal laws likely would be necessary to compel
    software and hardware manufacturers to abide by the broadcast-only
    designation.

    [...] 




From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 17 18:46:48 2002
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:46:48 -0400
Subject: Free software activists disrupt Commerce Dept. DRM roundtable
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020717214646.01c0a2c0@mail.well.com>


Photos are here:
http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/commerce-drm-rountable-july02.html

More on roundtable:
http://www.ta.doc.gov/PRel/ma020710.htm

---

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-944668.html?tag=politech

    Tech activists protest anti-copying
    By Declan McCullagh

    July 17, 2002, 5:55 PM PT
    WASHINGTON--Enthusiasts of free software disrupted a Commerce
    Department meeting Wednesday, insisting on their right to debate the
    entertainment industry over anti-copying technologies.

    About a dozen vocal tech activists in the audience challenged
    speakers, including Jack Valenti, head of the Motion Picture
    Association of America (MPAA), who equated piracy with theft and
    applauded digital rights management.

    "I'm going to accord you the utmost respect," Valenti said. "I'm going
    to listen to you, but let me finish...The first thing we ought to
    exhibit is good manners."

    The activists, mostly from New Yorkers for Fair Use, interrupted
    Valenti with hoots and jeers from the back of the room until the
    former presidential aide offered them the chance to reply.

    [...] 




From cableone.net at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 17 20:16:24 2002
From: cableone.net at einstein.ssz.com (cableone.net at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:16:24 -0500
Subject: This is WORKING Guys!!! DO This!!
Message-ID: <200207180323.WAA09043@einstein.ssz.com>


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From unsubs-0c8af11ab5-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Wed Jul 17 17:23:53 2002
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Message-ID: <200207180031.TAA06262@einstein.ssz.com>

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From daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu  Wed Jul 17 17:40:13 2002
From: daw at mozart.cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner)
Date: 18 Jul 2002 00:40:13 GMT
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
References: <f3ae96c8b98e24561acc5b321fcae037@aarg.net>
Message-ID: <ah52pd$brv$2@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>


AARG! Anonymous  wrote:
>David Wagner wrote:
>> The Hollings bill was interesting not for its success or failure, but
>> for what it reveals the content companies' agenda.
>
>The CBDTPA, available in text form at
>http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cbdtpa/hollings.s2048.032102.html,
>does not explicitly call for legislating DRM.

What's your point?  If you think the CBDTPA wasn't about legislating
DRM or something like it, we must be from different planets.

I'll elaborate.  CBDTPA delegated power to the FCC to specify standards
that all digital devices would have to implement.  It is not at all
surprising that CBDTPA was drafted to allow the FCC great freedom
in choosing the technical details as necessary to achieve the bill's
objectives.  It is equally clear that supporters of the bill were pushing
for some mandatory "Fritz chip", do-not-copy bit, Macrovision protection,
copy protection, or other DRM-like technical measure.  This issue is
not going away quietly.




From sy1xozi2i672 at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 18 12:57:47 2002
From: sy1xozi2i672 at hotmail.com (Alexandra)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:57:47 -1900
Subject: Herbal Viagra 30 day trial....                  DDJF
Message-ID: <00006d5722ba$000042c1$00001e73@mx09.hotmail.com>

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From ggaggung07 at kornet.net  Wed Jul 17 09:15:07 2002
From: ggaggung07 at kornet.net (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?v+y4rsSrteUgyLi/+L+1vvcgxsDA5Q==?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:15:07 +0900
Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIGN5cGhlcnB1bmtztNQgwOe5zMDWtMIgu+fAusewwLsgteW4s7TPtNku?=
Message-ID: <3d35a46f3d7caea3@relay6.kornet.net> (added by relay6.kornet.net)

우리카드    

     
    						 성명  		  주민등록 번호  
직장 전화      휴대폰  	     
   
      귀하의  메일주소는 웹서핑을 통해 수집한 것이며, 그외에 어떠한 정보도 갖고  있지 않음을 밝힙니다.
  이 E-mail은 발신전용이며, 원치 않으실  경우 아래 창에 메일주소를 입력하여 주시면 두 번 다시 메일  이  가지 않도록 하겠습니다.
     	  수신거부  / refusal of receipt   	    	  
 

 
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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-295 at mm53.com  Wed Jul 17 19:51:41 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-295 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 02:51:41 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, Save up to 80% - Inkjet & Laser Toners
Message-ID: <200207180258.VAA08641@einstein.ssz.com>

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From davidedwards at usa.net  Thu Jul 18 12:50:11 2002
From: davidedwards at usa.net (davidedwards at usa.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:50:11 -1600
Subject: Lose 22 Pounds In 14 Days                   7161
Message-ID: <0000768d6d4c$00002119$000018af@dkcott.com>


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From root at popsite.net  Thu Jul 18 03:31:55 2002
From: root at popsite.net (drs)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 05:31:55 -0500
Subject: Which universe are we in? (tossing tennis balls into spinning props) 
Message-ID: <200207181031.FAA31994@popsite.net.>



On n Tuesday, July 16, 2002, at 11:02 Tim May wrote:
 >On Tuesday, July 16, 2002, at 10:39  AM, Peter Fairbrother wrote: 
 >> Oh dear. QM does rule out internal states. I didn't think I would
 >> have to explain why I capitalised "Bell", but perhaps it was a bit
 >> too subtle. Google "Bell" and "inequalities", and go from there.
 
 > I disagree. Bell's Inequality is not dependent on QM...it's a 
 > mathematical statement about the outcomes of measurements where 
 > stochastic processes play a role. The fact that QM is strongly
 > believed to involve stochastic processes is why Bell's inequality
 > shows up  prominently in QM. However, we cannot then use B.I. to
 > prove things about QM.
 
  It's a statement about quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics and the 
violation of bell's inequality rest on the inseparability of a quantum
state. Typically, that means a test using an epr pair, i.e. a pair of
S = 1 photons with total J = 0, so that the pair behaves as a single
object with J = 0. The pair MUST be originate from the same quantum
process, (e.g., a single \pi_{0} decay), not as two arbitrarily selected
photons from a stochastic process (e.g., 2 photons selected at random
from the 4 produced in the decay of two pions). In short, quantum mechanics
is not stat mech.

 > A more persuasive proof of why hidden variables are not viable in QM is 
 >the work done on extending some theorems about Hilbert spaces. Namely, 
 >Gleason's theorem from the mid-50s, later extended by Kochen and Specker 
 >in the 1960s. The Kochen-Specker Theorem is accepted as the "no go" 
 >proof that hidden variables is not viable.

  While K-S is an improvement, it's fundamentally the same idea as bell's
but eliminates a loop-hole:

  From: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kochen-specker/

   "This is the easiest argument against the possibility of an HV 
   interpretation afforded by Gleason's theorem. Bell (1966: 6-8) offers a
   variant with a particular twist which later is repeated as the crucial
   step in the KS theorem. (This explains why some authors (like Mermin
   1990b) call the KS theorem the Bell-Kochen-Specker theorem; they think
   that the decisive idea of the KS theorem is due to Bell.[3]) He proves
   that the mapping  dictates that two vectors and  mapped into 1 and 0
   cannot be arbitrarily close, but must have a minimal angular separation,
   while the HV mapping, on the other hand, requires that they must be
   arbitrarily close."

 In any case, quantum mechanics is well established by a lot of convincing
arguments, even without any of the above to rely upon.




From taxfree4476319 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 18 02:33:35 2002
From: taxfree4476319 at yahoo.com (taxfree4476319 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 05:33:35 -0400
Subject: Work harder for yourself, not someone else!
Message-ID: <200207180931.g6I9Uw021194@ns.duke.co.kr>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jul 18 06:23:40 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 06:23:40 -0700
Subject: Gilmore Sues on FAA ID
Message-ID: <E17V8Tl-0004bD-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>


John Gilmore initiated a federal suit today in CA Northern District 
against Ashcroft, et al, challenging the air travel ID requirement:

  http://cryptome.org/freetotravel.htm




From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Thu Jul 18 03:45:03 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 06:45:03 EDT
Subject: Open Any Lock with Kwick Pick - On Sale Today!
Message-ID: <200207181057.DAA56942@s1065.mb00.net>

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From jayh at 1st.net  Thu Jul 18 04:13:00 2002
From: jayh at 1st.net (jayh at 1st.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:13:00 -0400
Subject: CNN.com - Hackers help counter Net censorship - July 15, 2002 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020715163634.7895y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3D366A7C.32544.46CA22@localhost>


Previous message got lost in the ether (I think).

Does anyone know what happened to this site? After all the buildup 
it seem unaccessiblej

j

On 15 Jul 2002 at 16:36, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/07/15/censorship.reut/index.html
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>               When I die, I would like to be born again as me.
> 
>                                             Hugh Hefner
>      ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
>      jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org
> 
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 





From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-298 at mm53.com  Thu Jul 18 00:40:40 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-298 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:40:40 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, Free New Cars for the Taking!
Message-ID: <200207180747.CAA14050@einstein.ssz.com>

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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-300 at mm53.com  Thu Jul 18 00:44:31 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-300 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:44:31 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, Compare & Save Big On Your Auto Insurance! - Get Instant Quotes
Message-ID: <200207180751.CAA14119@einstein.ssz.com>

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From tcmay at got.net  Thu Jul 18 08:17:43 2002
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:17:43 -0700
Subject: Another restriction on technology - cell and cordless 
  scanning now  a felony
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207181051001.27956-100000@ns.eruditium.org>
Message-ID: <81EE5B35-9A61-11D6-A94E-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, July 18, 2002, at 08:00  AM, cubic-dog wrote:

> How is this legal?
>
> How is it legal to outlaw reception of radio
> transmissions under the FCC act of 1934?
>
> I have never understood this. I keep expecting at
> some point, someone will somehow come up with a
> good reason to take a monitoring claim to the
> US supreme court and get all these laws tossed
> aside. But I guess I am expecting too much.

I thought everyone knew that the U.S. Constitution was secretly 
suspended by the Emergency Secrecy Order of 1862, with the suspension 
renewed and expanded by the Double Secret Emergency Order of 1913, 
establishing the Federal Reserve and imposing personal income reporting 
orders. And in the 1930s the Communists in power imposed more secret 
orders than I can hope to list. One of these was the That Which Cannot 
be Written Down secret order on radio and newspaper distribution.

Since then, both fascist and communist regimes have expanded the list of 
secret orders.

The fact that many regulations contradict each other is seen a a feature 
rather than as a bug.


--Tim May
"To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, 
my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists."  --John Ashcroft, 
U.S. Attorney General




From a.bernierpoi159amq8 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 18 06:18:18 2002
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:18:18 -0500
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Message-ID: <200207181325.IAA20000@einstein.ssz.com>


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From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Thu Jul 18 05:45:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:45:02 EDT
Subject: Thanks for your recent visit!
Message-ID: <200207181252.FAA75499@s1077.mb00.net>

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From InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com  Thu Jul 18 07:01:18 2002
From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (Insight on the News)
Date: 18 Jul 2002 10:01:18 -0400
Subject: Insight on the News Email Edition
Message-ID: <200207181002826.SM01248@broadbandpublisher.com>


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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Jul 18 09:11:39 2002
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:11:39 -0600
Subject: We don't need no stinking keys...
Message-ID: <3D36E8BB.40EF39F3@lsil.com>


if you'll just leave your back door ajar. I could suggest some alternate
meanings for "empowered". Sorry for the imagery. 

Mike

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/07/18/computer.security.ap/index.html

/*
Tools of empowerment

Clarke said the recommendations -- which currently number 77 but could
change before the official announcement -- will include
government-provided software and other tools to make them easier to
implement. He declined to say what the specific recommendations are. 

"It's designed to not just say (they) have a responsibility, but to
empower them by giving them the tools," Clarke said. 
*/




From dog3 at eruditium.org  Thu Jul 18 08:00:28 2002
From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:00:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Another restriction on technology - cell and cordless 
  scanning now  a felony
In-Reply-To: <20020717152801.E1116@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207181051001.27956-100000@ns.eruditium.org>


How is this legal? 

How is it legal to outlaw reception of radio 
transmissions under the FCC act of 1934? 

I have never understood this. I keep expecting at
some point, someone will somehow come up with a 
good reason to take a monitoring claim to the
US supreme court and get all these laws tossed
aside. But I guess I am expecting too much.

For all of it's faults, the fcc act of '34 
established in law that the air waves are
public property, that broadcasters operate
under license and don't own jack shit, and
that broadcasters must act in "the public 
interest, convenience, and necessity."

Even during war time in the 40's it was
established that anyone could "monitor" 
as the air waves are public property. However,
it was further established that one could
not act upon reception of certain broadcasts
with malicious intent and blah blah blah.

How in the hell have all these anti-monitoring
laws gotten passed? Do any of our lawmakers 
have any clue how the law works at all? 

This is sickening. 

*WE THE PEOPLE* own the airwaves. PERIOD.

Sony doesn't own them, Verizon doesn't own
them, for heavens sake, CNN certainly doesn't
own them, and as far as sat tv goes, neither
does the Playboy channel. 

WE own them. 




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Jul 18 08:02:07 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:02:07 -0400
Subject: Phone companies to violate your privacy more.
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD32@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


Do you have a 'reduced expectation of privacy'? 

Well, FCC Chairman Michael Powell thinks you do, and that
this justifies letting the telcos sell your detailed call information
(whom you call, when, and for how long) to 'affiliates', without
bothering to ask you first.

It's explicitly an opt-out system. Expect a densely worded
insert in ant type in your next phone bill, which, if you
hire a lawyer to decode, will tell you how to opt out.

See: http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/18/1245202.shtml?tid=158

Peter Trei




From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Thu Jul 18 08:45:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:45:02 EDT
Subject: The Mp3 Master Software!
Message-ID: <200207181550.IAA47357@s1098.mb00.net>

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From pitster263299422 at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 18 08:46:27 2002
From: pitster263299422 at hotmail.com (pitster263299422 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:46:27 -0400
Subject: IS A GRANT RIGHT FOR YOU??????
Message-ID: <200207181651.LAA22659@einstein.ssz.com>

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From: matchnews at foryou.match.com (Matchnews@match.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:56:47 -0500
Subject: 8 tips: Get more responses
Message-ID: <20020718175101.A686B1E9E918@dal53004.match.com>

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From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Jul 18 13:29:43 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:29:43 -0700
Subject: Army gets kids' info from schools
Message-ID: <3D372536.476DD25A@cdc.gov>


http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/52710.htm

NEW LAW LETS ARMY GET INFO ON HS KIDS

                          By CARL CAMPANILE


                          July 17, 2002 -- U.S. military recruiters have
the authority
                          to demand that education officials turn over
the names,
                          addresses and phone numbers of high-school
students
                          under a new federal law.

                          President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" law
orders school
                          bosses from New York and across the country to
comply
                          with the new edict - or risk losing federal
funds.

                          At the beginning of the school year, parents
will be given an
                          opportunity to call school officials to "opt
out" of disclosing
                          their child's personal information.

                          Access to student records is a boon to the
military in urban
                          areas, where many young men fail to register
for the draft,
                          as required by law.

                          The compliance rate in the Big Apple is one of
the lowest
                          among major U.S. cities, said Lewis Brodsky, a

                          spokesman for the Selective Service. Only 49
percent of
                          young men in New York register after turning
18.

                          The Selective Service had complained that
until recently, it
                          was difficult to get city officials to make
recruiters welcome
                          in their schools.

                          "We're aware of the provision. It's part of
the law and we
                          will comply," said Board of Education
spokesman Kevin
                          Ortiz.

                          Critics of the draft said giving the military
access to student
                          information smacks of Big Brother.

                          "We're opposed to it. It shows that the
government can't
                          be trusted to keep any information
confidential," said
                          George Getz, national spokesman for the
Libertarian Party
                          and the Campaign to End the Selective Service.

                          But U.S. Rep. John Isakson (R-Ga.) told The
Post he
                          pushed for the amendment after a school
district in his area
                          refused to provide military recruiters with
information to
                          contact students, which he found
reprehensible.




From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-302 at mm53.com  Thu Jul 18 06:57:11 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-302 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:57:11 UT
Subject: HARRISON FORD IN K:19:  THE WIDOWMAKER - IN THEATRES JULY 19
Message-ID: <200207181404.JAA20815@einstein.ssz.com>

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From remailer at aarg.net  Thu Jul 18 14:00:03 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:00:03 -0700
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
Message-ID: <9c2b8919f43426f445779c53d7539134@aarg.net>


Read a great article on Slashdot about the recent DRM workshop,
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/18/1219257, by "al3x":

   As the talks began, I was brimming with the enthusiasm and anger of an
   "activist," overjoyed at shaking hands with the legendary Richard
   Stallman, thrilled with the turnout of the New Yorkers for Fair
   Use. My enthusiasm and solidarity, however, was to be short lived....

   Comments from the RIAA's Mitch Glazier that there is "balance in the
   Digital Millennium Copyright Act" (DMCA), drew cries and disgusted
   laughter from the peanut gallery, who at that point had already been
   informed that any public comments could be submitted online. Even
   those in support of Fair Use and similar ideas began to be frustrated
   with the constant background commentary and ill-conceived outbursts
   of the New Yorkers for Fair Use and, to my dismay, Richard Stallman,
   who proved to be as socially awkward as his critics and fans alike
   report. Perhaps such behavior is entertaining in a Linux User Group
   meeting or academic debate, but fellow activists hissed at Stallman
   and the New Yorkers, suggesting that their constant interjections
   weren't helping.

   And indeed, as discussion progressed, I felt that my representatives
   were not Stallman and NY Fair Use crowd, nor Graham Spencer from
   DigitalConsumer.org, whose three comments were timid and without
   impact. No, I found my voice through Rob Reid, Founder and Chairman
   of Listen.com, whose realistic thinking and positive suggestions were
   echoed by Johnathan Potter, Executive Director of DiMA, and backed
   up on the technical front by Tom Patton of Phillips. Reid argued
   that piracy was simply a reality of the content industry landscape,
   and that it was the job of content producers and the tech industry
   to offer consumers something "better than free." "We charge $10
   a month for our service, and the competition is beating us by $10
   a month. We've got to give customers a better experience than the
   P2P file-sharing networks," Reid suggested. As the rare individual
   who gave up piracy when I gave up RIAA music and MPAA movies, opting
   instead for a legal and consumer-friendly Emusic.com account, I found
   myself clapping in approval.

Reading this and the other comments on the meeting, a few facts come
through: that the content companies are much more worried about closing
the "analog hole" than mandating traditional DRM software systems; that
the prospects for any legislation on these issues are uncertain given the
tremendous consumer opposition; and that extremist consumer activists are
hurting their cause by conjuring up farfetched scenarios that expose them
as kooks.  (That last point certainly applies to those here who continue
to predict that the government will take away general purpose computing
capabilities, allow only "approved" software to run, and ban the use of
Perl and Python without a license.  Try visiting the real world sometime!)

It is also good to see that the voices of sanity are being more and
more recognized, like the Listen.com executive above.  The cyber liberty
community must come out strongly against piracy of content and support
experiments which encourage people to pay for what they download.  It is
no longer tenable to claim that intellectual property is obsolete or evil,
or to point to the complaints of a few musicians as justification for
ignoring the creative rights of an entire industry.  There is still a
very good chance that we can have a future where people will happily pay
for legal content instead of making do with bootleg pirate recordings,
and that this can happen without legislation and without hurting consumer
choice.

Such an outcome would be the best for all concerned: for consumers, for
tech companies, for artists and for content licensees.  Anything else will
be a disaster for one or more of these groups, which will ultimately hurt
everyone.  Let's hope the EFF is listening to the kinds of clear-sighted
commentary quoted above.




From majormedical at excite.com  Thu Jul 18 15:10:43 2002
From: majormedical at excite.com (majormedical at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:10:43 -0700
Subject: Major Medical Breakthrough Huge Profit Potential
Message-ID: <200207182254.g6IMs5xx021621@ak47.algebra.com>

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From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Jul 18 15:25:45 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:25:45 -0700
Subject: RIAA escalates attack on music piracy, wants "broadcast
  flag"
Message-ID: <3D374069.7F46572@cdc.gov>


At 09:46 PM 7/17/02 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>    The idea is straightforward: Future hardware and software would
treat
>    music differently if it were designated as broadcast-only,
preventing
>    users from saving it or uploading it.

Ooops, I left the "broadcast only" switch on when I recorded
my kids first steps.  I need a program to remove that flag so I
can make copies to give to relatives.

Did I just a solicit a future felony?




From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-304 at mm53.com  Thu Jul 18 10:23:43 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-304 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:23:43 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, I was in tears
Message-ID: <200207181731.MAA23487@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 16:00:15 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:00:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: 385-3 vote: House OKs life sentences for hackers
In-Reply-To: <3D346862.C866116E@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020718175801.30667H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Michael Motyka wrote:

> Explain to me how a computer hacker is more dangerous than a drunk
> driver on the freeway? A hacker who interrupts power could be said to
> put hundreds or thousands of lives at risk but so could a drunk driver
> who spends an hour on the freeway. One is parallel the other is more or
> less serial, so what?

Not necessarily, the driver could hit a telephone pole. Or drive a truck
laden with toxic chemicals off the road on top of a bridge upstream from a
water intake...

It's politicing at the expense of the nation.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Jul 18 18:29:53 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:29:53 -0700
Subject: Another restriction on technology - cell and cordless 
  scanning now  a felony
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207181051001.27956-100000@ns.eruditium.org>
References: <20020717152801.E1116@pig.die.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020718170531.02a53790@idiom.com>


At 11:00 AM 07/18/2002 -0400, cubic-dog wrote:
>How is it legal to outlaw reception of radio
>transmissions under the FCC act of 1934?

The laws that established the FCC were just laws -
they're not Supreme Court decisions that are hard to change.
Congress made them, Congress can unmake them, change them, or
replace them with totally different laws.
They're not engraved in stone requiring Constitutional Amendments to fix -
they're written in sand, and if the wind blows the other direction
and 51% of Congress wants to change them, they're changed.

The FCC has limitations on how much *they* can change basic structures
set out in the laws, but the laws give them a lot of flexibility too.
The real stability is that the current regulatory structure
gives big economic advantages to the entrenched players,
so they're going to resist changes that stop favoring them,
while the regulatory bureaucracy gets a lot of power and influence
from giving favors to the big players, so they don't rock the boat either.

>I have never understood this. I keep expecting at
>some point, someone will somehow come up with a
>good reason to take a monitoring claim to the
>US supreme court and get all these laws tossed
>aside. But I guess I am expecting too much.

Nobody's had a good enough case, and the lawmakers have tended to go along
with the FCC on things like laws against monitoring unencrypted cellphones
(the alternative would have been removing laws and policies that
banned or discouraged encrypted cellphones,
which they didn't want back then, because Commies might use them
or the FBI might have trouble wiretapping cell phones without
getting proper warrants.)

>For all of it's faults, the fcc act of '34 established in law that
>the air waves are public property,
>that broadcasters operate under license and don't own jack shit, and
>that broadcasters must act in "the public interest, convenience, and 
>necessity."
....
>*WE THE PEOPLE* own the airwaves. PERIOD.

It was a terrible policy and we've suffered from it ever since*.
It's led to the current media oligopolies, with a narrow spectrum
of opinions from the pro-establishment pro-government corporatists,
pernicious policies of political correctness that, while not as
strict today as they were in the 50s, still strongly limit the
kinds of content you see on TV - and all of these were the kinds of things
that the policies were *intended* to do.

Unintended effects of the policies include decades of
restricted access to telecommunications in rural areas
(because the FCC's radio monopolies prevented development
of economical scalable radio-based telephony, which fit just fine with the
FCC's support for wireline telco monopolies.)  This also delayed
practical mobile technology for a decade or two.
Look at the explosion of interest in 802.11 wireless as an example
of what happens when you've got even a small space available
to use by the public rather than the bureaucracy and its friends.

Dave Farber and Gerry Faulhaber have a bunch of papers and a presentation at
http://rider.wharton.upenn.edu/~faulhabe/NEW_SPECTRUM_MANAGEMENT.PDF
There's further discussion at
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200206/msg00082.html
and a long nice article from the Seattle Times at
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134476462_spectrum17.html

The 1934 policies took spectrum that was a commons available to everyone,
seized and nationalized it in the name of "the public", and
turned it into a tool for political patronage.   Competition for use
of the spectrum worked fairly well before that, and it wasn't just
because of the primitive state of technology - Italy did without
radio spectrum licensing through most of the 80s and 90s
(they had an official bureaucracy, but it's greed was exceeded by
its incompetence, so the radio broadcasters started to just ignore it;
this lasted until right-wing media magnate Berlisconi became prime minister.)

Farber and Faulhaber point out that the regulatory environment is
incompetent, inefficient, and unnecessary, and make a good comparison
to the old Soviet GOSPLAN economic central planners;
they argue as engineers as well as economists.
While I disagree with their recommendations (big-bang auction of the
whole spectrum, and let the government bid on some space for unlicensed 
commons)
it couldn't be much worse than the current system.


------------
* In David Brin's recent speech at the Libertarian Party National Convention,
he reminded us all that "FDR was 60 years ago - get over it!" :-)




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 16:33:43 2002
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:33:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Virus_trouv=E9s_dans_un_mail?= (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020718183334.30667V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:45:47 -1000 (TAHT)
From: support at informatique.gov.pf
To: owner-cypherpunks-outgoing at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: [ISO-8859-1] Virus trouv�s dans un mail

Bonjour,

Nous avons d�tect�s un virus dans un des mails que vous avez envoy�.
Vous �tes peut-�tre victime d'une infection virale. 
Veuillez prendre toute vos dispositions pour faire v�rifier votre poste de
travail. 
Vous trouverez ci-dessous un rapport g�n�r� automatiquement par notre anti-virus.

Merci

Service de l'Informatique du Gouvernement
BP 4574 Papeete
98713 Papeete
Polyn�sie Fran�aise

Tel: (689) 544.366
mail : support at informatique.gov.pf

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email data:
MessageID: <20020718033404.SGJX20253.out017.verizon.net at Edervar>
From: miller-b <miller-b at swbell.net>
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Cc: 
Subject: CDR: Hi,cypherpunks,look,my beautiful girl friend
Scanning part []

Scanning part []
Virus identity found: W32/Klez-H


----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Thu Jul 18 15:46:01 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:46:01 EDT
Subject: The Eighth Wonder of the World
Message-ID: <200207182256.PAA16597@s1069.mb00.net>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Jul 18 19:00:31 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:00:31 -0700
Subject: DRM will not be legislated
In-Reply-To: <9c2b8919f43426f445779c53d7539134@aarg.net>
Message-ID: <3D37104F.9703.10F4D3A@localhost>


    --
> extremist consumer activists are hurting their cause by  
> conjuring up farfetched scenarios that expose them as kooks.  
> (That last point certainly applies to those here who continue to 
> predict that the government will take away general purpose  
> computing capabilities, allow only "approved" software to run,  
> and ban the use of Perl and Python without a license.  Try  
> visiting the real world sometime!)

Jack Valenti, President and CEO of the MPAA predicts the U.S. 
government will ban technologies that permit unrestricted copying. 
This of course would include such piracy tools as "cp", let alone 
such dangerously powerful hacker tools as Perl.  If we are going 
to have life in prison for hackers, we certainly need to do 
something about Perl.

Here in the real world, someone has done jail time for the  
heinious act of breaking rot 13,  (actually xor with a short  
constant string, which is a slight generalization of the rot 13  
algorithm) and anti terrorist legislation has just been passed  
that would have given him life, supposing that some actual harm  
had supposedly resulted from this major breakthrough.

If our masters propose to put someone in jail for life for  
breaking rot 13, why not life for unauthorized possession of tools 
capable of writing programs that could break rot 13?  

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     gClgqCOWiiYJmyo26JtGJfKmzOMw+edaV6tboz6a
     27u1VUjI7/WkzuwYfackYJmmMV4qwifjviHltUQwY




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Jul 18 19:45:26 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:45:26 -0700
Subject: They will damn well try to legislate DRM
Message-ID: <3D371AD6.16256.1386D55@localhost>


    --
The camel's nose is already in the tent.

With the Dmitri Sklyarov case, and the DeCSS case, we already have 
bit crimes, where possession of certain software capabilities is 
an illegal act.

Of course, each software capability that is criminalized requires 
other software capabilities to be criminalized.  In the end the 
law has to legalize them all, or else criminalize them all.

In the end, the camel has to be wholly in the tent, with 
programmer licensing, a ban on the sale of new general purpose 
computers to unauthorized people, (expect a spate of television
shows with demonic computer salemen whose lust for profit empowers
international terrorists) and a ban on unauthorized possession of
programming tools, or else the camel has to be wholly out of the
tent, meaning a free hand to break such inconveniences as regional
encoding on DVDs.

The natural instinct of businessmen is to do a deal, and the 
natural instinct of politicians is to compromise and build a 
coalition, but the nature of the beast does not permit compromise. 
In the end, it has to be all illegal, or all legal.  There is no 
alternative to confrontation.  The MPAA already sees this. 
Everyone else has to see it also.   Anyone who tries to compromise 
will find that each compromise requires another, considerably 
greater compromise, in order to make the first compromise 
workable.

With Palladium, Microsoft is promising that they are in favor of 
it all being legal -- but they are building a tool that would be 
mighty handy in making it all illegal. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     /JP9/KBIBXDammQ9AdO6t3Pawl6R2W2IHfwHUvV3
     29LLhBYnnqc0uhmRQxdAYx+C4Bae7GorYHjNqR12+




From StuarttwentiethVaughn at hdsa.org  Thu Jul 18 17:56:14 2002
From: StuarttwentiethVaughn at hdsa.org (Stuart Dawson)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:56:14 -0500
Subject: All Your Breast Enlargement Info From Top Breast Enlargement Sites.
Message-ID: a219401c22e6b$735df130$4fdc51cb@zain

Get your free bottles today, and change your life - why wait?

Get your free bottles today, and change your life - why wait?

http://millmake.com/




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 18:40:05 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:40:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Suggested Reading
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020718203852.30667Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



Espionage: An encyclopedia of spies and secrets
R.M. Bennett (Forward by Bamford)
ISBN 1-85227-942-7
$30 US


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 18:40:31 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:40:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Time Warner to Allow Digital Recording (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020718204016.30667Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/18/1850252.shtml?tid=129


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 18:42:38 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:42:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Suddenly a JPEG Patent and Licensing Fee (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020718204213.30667e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/18/157217.shtml?tid=155


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 18:43:29 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:43:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CNN.com - PCs part of national cyberspace protection plan - July 18,  2002 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020718204308.30667g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/07/18/computer.security.ap/index.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 18:45:08 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:45:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New Scientist - Quantum entanglement stronger than suspected  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020718204451.30667l-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992564


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 18:45:29 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:45:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Crypto Restrictions Are Taking Over the World (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020718204513.30667m-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/07/17/1617225.shtml?tid=158


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From claire19518 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 19 08:54:13 2002
From: claire19518 at earthlink.net (claire19518 at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:54:13 -1900
Subject: ` Mortgage Approved !! '
Message-ID: <00000e8e1b8d$00005ac5$000042da@mx01.earthlink.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 19:57:16 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:57:16 -0500
Subject: Magaw forced out as security chief
Message-ID: <3D37800C.6BBA98D0@ssz.com>


http://www.msnbc.com/news/782337.asp?0cm=c10
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Jul 18 22:53:59 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:53:59 -0700
Subject: Magaw forced out as security chief
In-Reply-To: <3D37800C.6BBA98D0@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <E17VNw9-0007v6-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>


Yes, now two of the named defendants in Gilmore's suit
are on their way out of office: head of FAA and now TSA. 
Not bad results for the first 12 hours.




From unsubs-ab450def3e-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Thu Jul 18 17:30:11 2002
From: unsubs-ab450def3e-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com (Special Deals)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:30:11 +0000
Subject: Super Blue Stuff Pain Relief - As Seen On TV
Message-ID: <200207190037.TAA29918@einstein.ssz.com>

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From WJJZZS at WJJZZS.COM  Thu Jul 18 10:24:11 2002
From: WJJZZS at WJJZZS.COM (JERRY LEE)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:24:11 +0800
Subject: lOOKING FOR AGENT OF BATHTUB SALING
Message-ID: <200207181730.MAA23451@einstein.ssz.com>


Note:If this eamil is not fit for you,please reply to webmaster at wjjzzs.com with "remove".You'd tell me the email address we've used.
We don't intend to send spam email to you.Thank you!

ATTN:cypherpunks at ssz.com
Dear sirs or Madams,
We are one Arcyl bathtub manufacturer in China.

-----------------Profile-----------------------

Our factoryspecializes in manufacturing ��YEMA�� brand acrylic composite bathtubs, we have more than 10 years experience of bathtub manufacturing and marketing. With 
our considerable experience we set out to blend the advantages of all the other of bathtubs offered in the market place into one range. After several years 
development we produced our current range and the YEMA brand bathtub was patented in 2001. We were even awarded the "Gold Medal" in the "Chinese Patent Technology 
Exhibition" and "The Ninth Chinese New Patent Technology and New Patent Product Exhibition" later that year. The YEMA bathtubs structural design is that of a normal 
acrylic bathtub but conglutinated into a composite material. It is ridged and is made more than twice as thick as a normal unit, making it more smooth, gentle and 
elegant. This manufacturing technique not only provides all the advantages of a normal acrylic bathtub (easily to clean, resistance to dirt, colorful,attractive etc) 
but also provides increased heat retention, and extends the products life span.

Besides our products on website, we now produce some new models for USA market. We also produce shower panels with finest quality.

-------------------bathtub Specifications---------------------
1,Wall thickness:10mm~20mm
2,Weight: 50~60KG

-------------------Cooperate--------------------------------

We would like to be your OEM/ODM manufacturer.

For detailed info, please browse our website http://www.wjjzzs.com

Best wishes and regards,

Export Manager
Jerry Lee
Mobile:13951228561
Phone:0086-519-5211973
Fax:  0086-519-5209776
Wujin Huangli Composited Sanitary Factory
Add:HUangli town,Wujin county
    Changzhou 213151
    Jiangsu province
    P.R.China
Websie:http://www.wjjzzs.com
Email:wjjzzs at wjjzzs.com

July 18, 2002




From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-309 at mm53.com  Thu Jul 18 18:42:59 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-309 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:42:59 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, Fast Insurance Quotes by Insurecom.com
Message-ID: <200207190150.UAA31579@einstein.ssz.com>

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From die at die.com  Thu Jul 18 23:04:01 2002
From: die at die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:04:01 -0400
Subject: They will damn well try to legislate DRM]
Message-ID: <20020719020401.R11783@pig.die.com>


On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 07:45:26PM -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> 
> In the end, the camel has to be wholly in the tent, with 
> programmer licensing, a ban on the sale of new general purpose 
> computers to unauthorized people, (expect a spate of television
> shows with demonic computer salemen whose lust for profit empowers
> international terrorists) and a ban on unauthorized possession of
> programming tools, or else the camel has to be wholly out of the
> tent, meaning a free hand to break such inconveniences as regional
> encoding on DVDs.

	I hate to inject my silly voice into such august debate, but it
is both possible and there is precedent (in respect to other consumer
electronic gear) for legislating restrictions on consumer PCs in the
hands of the general public without controlling or restricting PCs used
for business, commercial, scientific, or technical purposes.

	Thus the pro-DRM argument that says that DRM will never be
legislated because of the magnitude of the impact to the economy
conveniantly ignores the possibility of a bill that restricts new PCs
sold for home use by ordinary consumers but allows all the computers
in the business economy to function without TCPA or DRM if they choose.

	This would, of course, satisfy almost all the content cartels
realistic needs and would only force consumers to upgrade to the closed
boxes if they wanted the new content, not force wholesale replacements
of offices full of PCs.

	And yet it could result in a world in which it was illegal to
offer software or hardware to the general public that was not DRM'd or
allow the general public complete access to their networked machines
even for personal use only.

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die at die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18




From darrenpotter at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 19 11:36:27 2002
From: darrenpotter at hotmail.com (darrenpotter at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:36:27 -1600
Subject: Are Your Printer Cartridges Expensive?                  SNEEY
Message-ID: <00005cd273ea$0000587b$00002e45@C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Send\domains2.txt>


What have you been up to?
I don't know about you, but I am sick and tired of going
down to the store to find out that your printer cartridges
cost more than the printer itself! I know how you feel
- I print over 500 pages a day, and it feels like there is
a vacuum sucking money out of my wallet! Now, this has got
to stop because I know it doesn't cost the printer companies
anywhere near what it costs me to do my office and school work!
Well, it finally has.  The SUPERINK solution.

You're probably thinking to yourself, "Gosh darn, not another
cheap knockoff printer cartridge!"  Like you, I was very 
skeptical at first, but my best friend & business associate
said it helped her save over $100 a month on printer supplies. 
So I tried it.  I mean, there was nothing to lose because they
offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee, up to a one-year warranty
on all of their products and FREE Shipping on ALL orders!
Let me tell you, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made.
Period.  Six months later, as I'm writing this message to you,
I've gone from spending $1000 dollars a month on printer supplies
to Now ONLY $475! and I haven't had to sacrifice the quality or
service that I received from the local office supply store. In fact,
the service is even BETTER!  I've had 1 defective cartridge since 
I started dealing with SUPERINK and they sent me a new replacement
within 3 days, no questions asked. Now, I can print all I want!

I was so happy with the results that I contacted their manufacturer
and got permission to be a reseller - at a BIG discount.  I want
to help other people to avoid getting jipped by the printer companies
like I did. Because a penny saved is a penny earned! 
I give you my personal pledge the SUPERINK soltuion will absolutely
WORK FOR YOU. If it doesn't, you can return your order anytime
for a full refund.    

If you are frustrated with dishing out money like it is water to the
printer companies, or tired of poor quality ink & toner cartridges,
then I recommend - the SUPERINK solution.

You're probably asking yourself, "Ok, so how do we save all this money
without losing quality and service?"

Modern technology has provided SUPERINK with unique, revolutionary
methods of wax molding that allow the ink & toner to 'settle', which
prevents any substantial damage that would occur during shipping and
handling. Nothing "magic" about it - just quality & savings, BIG SAVINGS!

Here is the bottom line ...

I can help you save 30%-70% per week/per month/per year or per lifetime 
by purchasing any of our ink & toner supplies. Just try it once, you'll 
keep coming back - there's nothing to lose, and much MONEY to be saved! 
100% Satisfaction Guaranteed. You will be able to print as much as you
want without wasting money or sacrificing quality - GUARANTEED.
That is my pledge to you.  

To order from the SUPERINK Solution on our secure server, just click
on the link below (or enter it into your browser):

http://www.superink.net/

If you have difficulty accessing the website above, please
try contacting us toll-free at 1-800-758-8084 - Thanks!

Sincerely - Lance Fullerton


******************************************************************
If you do not wish to receive any more emails from me, please 
send an email to "print1 at btamail.net.cn" requesting to be removed.
Thank You and Sorry for any inconvenience.
******************************************************************




From deal33099 at excite.com  Fri Jul 19 00:47:03 2002
From: deal33099 at excite.com (deal33099 at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:47:03 -0500
Subject: CD For The Value of Your Property in Five Years (8508xRkG8-@9)
Message-ID: <005d53e08cbe$6857e5d3$6ba65bd3@raklks>

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From daskata at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 19 11:57:09 2002
From: daskata at hotmail.com (daskata at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:57:09 -1600
Subject: Welcome to the Modern Way to Improve your Budget!                 
Message-ID: <0000498a18fc$0000174d$00003de2@C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Send\domains2.txt>


What have you been up to?
I don't know about you, but I am sick and tired of going
down to the store to find out that your printer cartridges
cost more than the printer itself! I know how you feel
- I print over 500 pages a day, and it feels like there is
a vacuum sucking money out of my wallet! Now, this has got
to stop because I know it doesn't cost the printer companies
anywhere near what it costs me to do my office and school work!
Well, it finally has.  The SUPERINK solution.

You're probably thinking to yourself, "Gosh darn, not another
cheap knockoff printer cartridge!"  Like you, I was very 
skeptical at first, but my best friend & business associate
said it helped her save over $100 a month on printer supplies. 
So I tried it.  I mean, there was nothing to lose because they
offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee, up to a one-year warranty
on all of their products and FREE Shipping on ALL orders!
Let me tell you, it was one of the best decisions I've ever made.
Period.  Six months later, as I'm writing this message to you,
I've gone from spending $1000 dollars a month on printer supplies
to Now ONLY $475! and I haven't had to sacrifice the quality or
service that I received from the local office supply store. In fact,
the service is even BETTER!  I've had 1 defective cartridge since 
I started dealing with SUPERINK and they sent me a new replacement
within 3 days, no questions asked. Now, I can print all I want!

I was so happy with the results that I contacted their manufacturer
and got permission to be a reseller - at a BIG discount.  I want
to help other people to avoid getting jipped by the printer companies
like I did. Because a penny saved is a penny earned! 
I give you my personal pledge the SUPERINK soltuion will absolutely
WORK FOR YOU. If it doesn't, you can return your order anytime
for a full refund.    

If you are frustrated with dishing out money like it is water to the
printer companies, or tired of poor quality ink & toner cartridges,
then I recommend - the SUPERINK solution.

You're probably asking yourself, "Ok, so how do we save all this money
without losing quality and service?"

Modern technology has provided SUPERINK with unique, revolutionary
methods of wax molding that allow the ink & toner to 'settle', which
prevents any substantial damage that would occur during shipping and
handling. Nothing "magic" about it - just quality & savings, BIG SAVINGS!

Here is the bottom line ...

I can help you save 30%-70% per week/per month/per year or per lifetime 
by purchasing any of our ink & toner supplies. Just try it once, you'll 
keep coming back - there's nothing to lose, and much MONEY to be saved! 
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From cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Jul 18 12:40:42 2002
From: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com (John Stepanian)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:40:42 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks,Lose Inches & Pounds With Powerful HGH Product!!
Message-ID: <200207181926.g6IJQsp05638@kbilinux.kbiltd.co.kr>

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From magazines at ebay.com  Fri Jul 19 03:56:11 2002
From: magazines at ebay.com (magazines at ebay.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:56:11
Subject: Ebay's Magazine Give-Away
Message-ID: <369.341936.852687@unknown>

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From ja4ioff0h768 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 19 16:34:23 2002
From: ja4ioff0h768 at yahoo.com (Brooke)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 04:34:23 -1900
Subject: Toners and inkjet cartridges for less....                     UZXL
Message-ID: <000052e1258d$00001f6c$00001269@mx1.mail.yahoo.com>

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From George at Orwellian.Org  Fri Jul 19 06:27:36 2002
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:27:36 -0700
Subject: With Arles Image Web Page Creator
Message-ID: <200207191327.g6JDRat09215@slack.lne.com>





From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Fri Jul 19 03:45:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:45:02 EDT
Subject: Act FAST! Getting a CREDIT CARD is as easy as 1,2,3!
Message-ID: <200207191058.DAA88947@s1075.mb00.net>

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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-313 at mm53.com  Thu Jul 18 23:48:12 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-313 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:48:12 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, Back in stock for your cell phone!
Message-ID: <200207190655.BAA04739@einstein.ssz.com>

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From declan at well.com  Fri Jul 19 05:18:32 2002
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:18:32 -0400
Subject: How much will they claim CSS is worth?
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020719081816.02ac1a30@mail.well.com>


[TRADE SECRETS]
California Court Says Trade Secrets Theft Can Get Jail Time
      The California Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the theft of
trade secrets worth more than $50,000 can trigger a state statute
requiring a minimum county jail sentence as a condition of probation. The
ruling arose in a matter involving an electrical engineer charged with the
theft of confidential design specifications for computer chips.
      Read the article: law.com @
http://www.law.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&c=LawArticle&cid=1024078985514&t=LawArticleIP




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Jul 19 08:14:59 2002
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:14:59 -0600
Subject: How much will they claim CSS is worth?
Message-ID: <3D382CF3.7CD08E3B@lsil.com>


Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> wrote :
>
>[TRADE SECRETS]
>California Court Says Trade Secrets Theft Can Get Jail Time
>      The California Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the theft of
>trade secrets worth more than $50,000 can trigger a state statute
>requiring a minimum county jail sentence as a condition of probation. The
>ruling arose in a matter involving an electrical engineer charged with the
>theft of confidential design specifications for computer chips.
>      Read the article: law.com @
>http://www.law.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&>c=LawArticle&cid=1024078985514&t=LawArticleIP
>
I'm not sure I get the connection. It sounds like the guy stole
documentation from his employer. No sympathy from me. Tell me if I'm
wrong but DeCSS was the result of a reverse engineering effort on
materials publicly available.

Mike




From mings1012002 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 19 10:35:53 2002
From: mings1012002 at yahoo.com (mings1012002 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:35:53 -0700
Subject: Quick Cash!
Message-ID: <413-220027519173553160@6xlti>


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From mv at cdc.gov  Fri Jul 19 11:06:40 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:06:40 -0700
Subject: Won't someone please think of the hooooollywood execs!
Message-ID: <3D385530.4D6733D6@cdc.gov>


At 07:00 PM 7/18/02 -0700, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>If our masters propose to put someone in jail for life for
>breaking rot 13, why not life for unauthorized possession of tools
>capable of writing programs that could break rot 13?

"Ideas are more powerful than guns.
We don't let them have guns; why should we let them have ideas?"




From mv at cdc.gov  Fri Jul 19 11:13:56 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:13:56 -0700
Subject: QM, randomness, ignornace (Re:Atmospheric noise & fair coin
  flipping)  x-post
Message-ID: <3D3856E4.8F3DC313@cdc.gov>


This just showed up on _cryptography_ and illuminates the point various
nyms were making
here about QM, randomness, and ignorance.  Reproduced without
permission.


Hannes said,

> What we have here is a theory which is almost as old as the
> special theory of relativity and has not yet prooven wrong.
> This theory tells us that there is no way whatever, that a
> possible eavesdropper can listen to the key exchange.

I appreciate your statement and I am sure you have the experise in the
area.
However, to rely on a security/crypto mechanism, I must see a proof I
understand, and I _never_ rely on `proof by intimidation`.

In this case, I'll like a proof showing reduction from a specific
theorem
which is backed by many years of concentrated effort to break it. I am
not
cynical, really. I will really appreciate if you provide me/us with
(reference) to
(a) historical evidence of a precise theorem/conjecture which withstood
many
years of substantial scurtiny, and
(b) precise proof, with sufficient details for someone (like me) whose
physics is rusty (many years since my engineering school days...),
showing
the reduction from the specific claims to the long-lived theorem.

> It also > tells us that if we
> use either a Quantum random number generator or an entangled
> photon QKD system, that
> we get absolutly random numbers.

Can you generate truly random numbers? Cool! Indeed, this is something
which
in a sense is to be expected, based on the uncertainty principle. Of
course,
for a complete QKD system this may be a small part; but this part could
be
useful for many crypto systems, if it is really secure - and practical
(cost, size, etc.). Can you provide details on this?

As an aside note, the uncertainty principle may be an example of
physical
theory which have withstood many years, but I doubt that it was really
tested using crypto principles. I mean, couldn't it just turn out that
all
of the randomization in physics will some day turn out to be
pseudo-random??? After all, detecting the difference could be fairly
difficult, even if and when we learn the details of this supposed
pseudo-random generator, assuming it is a non-trivial one (after all
even
the congruential generator was only fairly recently shown insecure!).

Regards, Amir Herzberg
See http://amir.herzberg.name/book.html  for lectures and draft-chapters

from book-in-progress, `Introduction to Cryptography, Secure
Communication
and Commerce`; feedback appreciated!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to
majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Fri Jul 19 08:45:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:45:02 EDT
Subject: Never miss a phone call or fax while online
Message-ID: <200207191558.IAA18605@s1088.mb00.net>

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From mclt1-Penis at mail.com  Fri Jul 19 09:06:36 2002
From: mclt1-Penis at mail.com (Penis Growth)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:06:36 -0400
Subject: **Natural Viagra is Finally Here!!** -  rlyt
Message-ID: <200207191612.LAA14771@einstein.ssz.com>

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From George at Orwellian.Org  Fri Jul 19 13:14:47 2002
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:14:47 -0700
Subject: Worm Klez.E immunity
Message-ID: <200207192014.g6JKEdt12515@slack.lne.com>





From pashley at storm.ca  Fri Jul 19 10:43:10 2002
From: pashley at storm.ca (Sandy Harris)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:43:10 -0400
Subject: How much will they claim CSS is worth?
References: <3D382CF3.7CD08E3B@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3D384FAE.67E7EA24@storm.ca>


Michael Motyka wrote:
> 
> Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> wrote :
> >
> >[TRADE SECRETS]
> >California Court Says Trade Secrets Theft Can Get Jail Time
> >      The California Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the theft of
> >trade secrets worth more than $50,000 can trigger a state statute
> >requiring a minimum county jail sentence as a condition of probation. The
> >ruling arose in a matter involving an electrical engineer charged with the
> >theft of confidential design specifications for computer chips.
> >      Read the article: law.com @
> >http://www.law.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&>c=LawArticle&cid=1024078985514&t=LawArticleIP
> >
> I'm not sure I get the connection. It sounds like the guy stole
> documentation from his employer. No sympathy from me.

Agreed.

> Tell me if I'm wrong but DeCSS was the result of a reverse engineering
> effort on materials publicly available.

Yes, but the suit filed in California by DVD CCA claimed this was theft
of trade secrets and a violation of the license agreement. Methinks this
is obviously nonsense, but the judge may disagree.




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jul 19 11:12:25 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:12:25 -0400
Subject: AIR TRAVELER ID REQUIREMENT CHALLENGED
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020719141120.03341730@mail.panix.com>


<http://cryptome.org/freetotravel.htm>Gilmore v. Ashcroft -- FAA ID Challenge
AIR TRAVELER ID REQUIREMENT CHALLENGED
Secret rule demanding 'Your Papers Please' claimed unconstitutional

San Francisco - Civil libertarian John Gilmore today challenged as 
unconstitutional a secret federal rule that requires domestic US travelers 
to identify themselves.





Smooth move. Attempt to board a flight to DC on July 4th "to petition the 
government for redress of grievances". Even if not successful, it will be 
annoying and will be worthwhile if it manages to crack out copies of the 
secret security directives (like FAA SD 96-05)establishing the system.

Keep in mind that until the end of the first Clinton administration, it was 
perfectly legal to fly domestically without ID.

--
Posted by Duncan Frissell to <http://technoptimist.blogspot.com>The 
Technoptimist at 7/18/2002 11:12:20 AM

Powered by <http://pro2.blogger.com>Blogger Pro 




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Jul 19 11:14:08 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:14:08 -0400
Subject: Generally Accepted Accounting Principles
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020719141350.039e5c90@mail.panix.com>


Enron followed Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) in 
accounting for the activities of its Special Purpose Entities (SPEs) and 
concealed its true financial status.

Worldcom didn't follow (GAAP) in accounting for expenses and concealed its 
true financial status.

Federal and state governments and their Special Purpose Entities (like 
Social Security) have never followed (GAAP) and regularly conceal their 
true financial status.

If private execs should do time for their lies and concealment so should 
our political leaders for their much more significant lies and concealment.

--
Posted by Duncan Frissell to <http://technoptimist.blogspot.com>The 
Technoptimist at 7/8/2002 9:44:15 AM

Powered by <http://pro2.blogger.com>Blogger Pro 




From legal_help at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 19 13:17:21 2002
From: legal_help at yahoo.com (legal_help at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:17:21 -0500
Subject: irs help 1896433
Message-ID: <B0036630605@hiscoweb.hisco.co.kr>

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From 1trkmpnyn at ttnet.net.tr  Fri Jul 19 05:43:53 2002
From: 1trkmpnyn at ttnet.net.tr (TR Posta NetWorks)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:43:53 +0300
Subject: BiLiYORUZ REKLAMA iHTiYACINIZ VAR! BUNUN iCiN BURADAYIZ..  19.07.2002 15:43:53
Message-ID: <200207191243.g6JCh5J31136@locust.minder.net>

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From porn at napster.com  Fri Jul 19 17:08:46 2002
From: porn at napster.com (porn at napster.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:08:46
Subject: Horny?...Stop Paying for Porn - 12 Free Passes
Message-ID: <777.697822.732971@unknown>

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From porn at napster.com  Fri Jul 19 18:24:03 2002
From: porn at napster.com (porn at napster.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:24:03
Subject: Horny?...Stop Paying for Porn - 12 Free Passes
Message-ID: <735.422509.792986@unknown>

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jul 19 17:35:43 2002
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:35:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New Scientist - Second Law of Thermodynamcis "Broken" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020719193528.30667t-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992572


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 19 17:35:58 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:35:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Plumbing the Personal Data Depths (datamining, intelligence, & privacy) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020719193545.30667u-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://sci.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18640.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Jul 19 17:38:12 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:38:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NewsForge: Signals in the noise: Peter Wayner's new book on  steganography (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020719193721.30667v-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/07/19/1513247.shtml?tid=21


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Jul 19 17:39:25 2002
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:39:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Hacker mailing list goes corporate ( Symantec buys BugTraq) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020719193900.30667x-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.msnbc.com/news/781975.asp?0si=-&cp1=1


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




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From stockgroupalertnews212 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 19 23:56:19 2002
From: stockgroupalertnews212 at yahoo.com (stockgroupalertnews212 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:56:19 -0500
Subject: (ADV) OTCBB:SCDD    A Company On The Rise.
Message-ID: <94042AOCUN.BFKU1TARDUTH5.stockgroupalertnews212@yahoo.com>

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From dani_fuchs at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 20 14:52:10 2002
From: dani_fuchs at hotmail.com (George E. Pake)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 05:52:10 -1600
Subject: Lose 20 Pounds In 14 Days                     16851
Message-ID: <000015ba18a7$000036c8$00001236@christmasbowl.com>

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From cvs250 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 20 15:22:50 2002
From: cvs250 at hotmail.com (Morris Cohen)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 06:22:50 -1600
Subject: Lose 18 Pounds In 7 Days                12276
Message-ID: <000074cc1bd2$000028fb$000029a8@clarville.ch>

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From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Sat Jul 20 04:45:02 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:45:02 EDT
Subject: Impotence got you down?
Message-ID: <200207201200.FAA44862@s1060.mb00.net>

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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-316 at mm53.com  Sat Jul 20 01:48:16 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-316 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:48:16 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, Meet Someone Special!
Message-ID: <200207200856.DAA04320@einstein.ssz.com>

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From missy7889 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 20 21:01:29 2002
From: missy7889 at yahoo.com (JUNIOR)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:01:29 -1700
Subject: all natural breast enlargement and penile enlargement
Message-ID: <200207201619.LAA11443@einstein.ssz.com>

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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-321 at mm53.com  Sat Jul 20 05:34:30 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-321 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:34:30 UT
Subject: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, Double The Speed of Your Computer!
Message-ID: <200207201242.HAA08422@einstein.ssz.com>

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From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:46:01 EDT
Subject: Super Violen KeyChain - First time on NET
Message-ID: <200207201759.KAA99142@s1104.mb00.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 20 12:53:54 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:53:54 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Unauditable Voting Machines
Message-ID: <3D39BFD2.1D78701F@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/20/0124232.shtml?tid=126
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 20 12:55:26 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:55:26 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Sybase Advertises 'PATRIOTcompliance'
Message-ID: <3D39C02D.942E361E@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/20/0042240.shtml?tid=158
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 20 12:56:44 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:56:44 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | L0pht And The FBI
Message-ID: <3D39C07C.A3723DFC@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/20/0324220.shtml?tid=172
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net  Sat Jul 20 13:20:22 2002
From: wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net (Bill O'Hanlon)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:20:22 -0500
Subject: Testing
Message-ID: <20020720202022.GA367@rebma.pro-ns.net>



Sorry for the intrusion.  (I upgraded Majordomo, and the list is quiet
enough that I'm not sure if I broke anything.)

Please ignore this message to the best of your ability.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Jul 20 12:53:46 2002
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:53:46 -0400
Subject: LNE cypherpunks and cpunx-news archives
Message-ID: <200207191928.49625.sfurlong@acmenet.net>


The DNS name cypherpunks.dhs.org has gone to the big bit-bucket in the 
sky. Anyone wishing to access the list archives can go to

http://208.171.236.113/cypherpunks/

and

http://208.171.236.113/cpunx-news/

for the time being.


SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong    Computer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel

Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking




From rah at shipwright.com  Sat Jul 20 13:35:05 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:35:05 -0400
Subject: [fc] LNCS 1465 online
Message-ID: <p05111a02b95f796c4a4f@[66.149.49.6]>


--- begin forwarded text



From ray at unipay.nl  Sat Jul 20 09:41:26 2002
From: ray at unipay.nl (R. Hirschfeld)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:41:26 +0200
Subject: [fc] LNCS 1465 online
Message-ID: <mailman.628.1575948386.62801.testlist@lists.cpunks.org>

Springer has informed me that the FC98 Proceedings have just been
published online.  They are available at:

http://link.springer.de/link/service/series/0558/tocs/t1465.htm
or
http://link.springer-ny.com/link/service/series/0558/tocs/t1465.htm
_______________________________________________
fc mailing list
fc at ifca.ai
http://mail.ifca.ai/mailman/listinfo/fc

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Jul 20 18:54:48 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:54:48 -0700
Subject: 300 Per Cent Return on Campaign Slush
Message-ID: <E17W39n-0006jf-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Nice comment on Bill Moyer's NOW last night by John Bogle, 
"described by Fortune Magazine as one of the investment 
industrys four giants of the 20th century.":

  It's no surpise smart businesses invest in DC political 
  contributions. You can get 300% return, compared to 
  only 15-20% of the top corporate stocks.

Mr. Bogle believes this is a scandal, and while he does
not believe in governmental intervention against corporate
corruption he does favor higher ethical standards. He
thinks the giant mutal funds and governmental pension
funds -- some 75 of them control 45% of all stocks -- 
should forego pursuit of maximum return on their 
investments and demand that corporations stop corrupt 
practices. He said it is amazing that the mutual funds are 
so quiet about their losses, except for the fact that they 
have been the greatest beneficiaries of corruption,
rather 300% ROI.




From newjobs2002 at 163.com  Sat Jul 20 15:16:52 2002
From: newjobs2002 at 163.com (newjobs)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:16:52 GMT
Subject: ��Ƹ����ְnewjobs��������
Message-ID: <200207201427.JAA09743@einstein.ssz.com>

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From unsubs-18c22f1dfd-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Sat Jul 20 15:38:39 2002
From: unsubs-18c22f1dfd-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com (Special Deals)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:38:39 +0000
Subject: , Get this Cell Phone for FREE
Message-ID: <200207202246.RAA20659@einstein.ssz.com>

IDS CELLULAR 

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all plans. 

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then here's the perfect chance to receive a FREE cell phone of your own.
Even if you already own a cell phone, you should not pass up this
extraordinary offer for a friend or family member. 

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* this AT&T offer is for a limited time only! 

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______________________________________________________________________
You have signed up with one of our network partners to receive email
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wish to receive these offers in the future, reply to this email with
"unsubscribe" in the subject or simply click on the following link:
http://unsubscribe.verticalresponse.com/u.html?18c22f1dfd/aa3b97bcc2


-------------- next part --------------
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From ankara at dunyagazetesi.com.tr  Sat Jul 20 12:55:30 2002
From: ankara at dunyagazetesi.com.tr (D�nya Gazetesi Ankara Temsilcili�i)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:55:30 +0300
Subject: Kime Oy Vereceksiniz ?
Message-ID: <200207201955.g6KJtQb28814@smtp.doruk.net.tr>

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From hadmut at danisch.de  Sat Jul 20 14:29:45 2002
From: hadmut at danisch.de (Hadmut Danisch)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:29:45 +0200
Subject: Maybe no stego on eBay afterall
In-Reply-To: <00af01c2300b$e0388850$6501a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>
References: <15670.65478.136672.341983@cabernet.nelson.monkey.org> <00af01c2300b$e0388850$6501a8c0@LUCKYVAIO>
Message-ID: <20020720212944.GA4666@danisch.de>



On Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 09:38:25AM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:

> 
> I find it interesting, though not in the least surprising, that the
> above quote assumes that all users of steganography are terrorists. From
> this position it is a small step to the position that all individual
> civilian users of strong/unescrowed cryptography are terrorists.


I fully agree.

Go one step further: 

Every civilian who sells at ebay, puts a picture on the auction
web page, and doesn't take care that this picture can't be
reported falsely positive by some arbitrary software by any
company wishing to be in the headlines, can be considered being 
a terrorist as well.

So, simply, everyone selling on ebay with a picture (oops, I did
as well), is in danger of being considered as a terrorist. 
You never know what next month's stego detection software will
pretend to detect in one's picture.

And as we know, the US convicts terrorists at those lawless 
military courts.

Gee, I was never aware how dangerous it is to sell on Ebay.

(Any idea how to make a picture reliably stego free against
*any* stego detection software?)

Hadmut


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Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Jul 20 22:08:32 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:08:32 -0500
Subject: The Register - Face recognition fails in Boston airport
Message-ID: <3D3A41CF.F251898C@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/26298.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From pgoldmaster at marketingontarget.net  Sat Jul 20 18:11:59 2002
From: pgoldmaster at marketingontarget.net (Premier Gold MasterCard)
Date: 21 Jul 2002 01:11:59 -0000
Subject: cypherpunks, get the credit you deserve
Message-ID: <200207210121.g6L1LIQc002722@ak47.algebra.com>

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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-322 at mm53.com  Sat Jul 20 20:01:50 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-322 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 03:01:50 UT
Subject: Friend, Real Drugs-Viagra and Phentrimine!
Message-ID: <200207210309.WAA27780@einstein.ssz.com>

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From pitster264108459 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 21 01:05:15 2002
From: pitster264108459 at hotmail.com (MARLENE)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 04:05:15 -0400
Subject: Right now, your personal privacy program
Message-ID: <200207210857.g6L8vN509611@anyquery.com>

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From 9k2hnebook at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 21 16:43:26 2002
From: 9k2hnebook at yahoo.com (9k2hnebook at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 04:43:26 -1900
Subject: Powerful Information              1250
Message-ID: <000038383b0d$00001040$0000357a@.>

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From sseghosrimelse at msn.com  Sun Jul 21 16:23:15 2002
From: sseghosrimelse at msn.com (Jillian Oros)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 06:23:15 -1700
Subject: Delete your Bad Credit Online!                  3269
Message-ID: <00007d8721f2$0000578f$000025c0@smtp-gw-4.msn.com>

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From ki0fels6h2681 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 21 18:26:58 2002
From: ki0fels6h2681 at hotmail.com (Cheyenne)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 06:26:58 -1900
Subject: Herbal Viagra 30 day trial....             MV
Message-ID: <00000f8c3698$000030f0$000004d2@mx06.hotmail.com>

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From MERVE at ILDENIZ.COM  Sun Jul 21 04:23:23 2002
From: MERVE at ILDENIZ.COM (MERVE at ILDENIZ.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:23:23 -0400
Subject: VIDEOLARIM :) 
Message-ID: <200207211123.g6LBNNl12960@ensim.rackshack.net>


<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=windows-1254">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage Express 2.0">
<title>100.000 lerce resim ve vide</title>
</head>

<body bgcolor="#FED8FB">

<p align="center"><a
href="http://pembeliste.netfirms.com/videolar.exe"><img
src="http://pembeliste.netfirms.com/dialer.jpg" border="0"
width="822" height="569"></a></p>

<p align="center"><a
href="http://pembeliste.netfirms.com/videolar.exe">100.000 lerce
resim 10.000lerce v�deo ya Kolay ve H�zl� bir �ekilde
ula�mak i�in 37 kb bu program� indirebilirsiniz !!!</a></p>
</body>
</html>

--------------------------------------------------------------------





From greatonetop at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 21 05:16:05 2002
From: greatonetop at yahoo.com (Friend)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 08:16:05 -0400
Subject: Turn $25 into an unlimited CASH inceome, easy & legal ADV
Message-ID: <200207211216.IAA32005@saturn.charterpa.net>


(This is a ONE-TIME EMAIL, please click delete and accept my apologies 
If you are not interested in making a legal CASH income by investing a 
small amount of time and money)

There is no need to reply or ask to be removed from any mailing list. 
You will not receive any more identical emails from this source.

Dear Entrepreneur:

This program is intended for those people who understand that nothing in 
life is free.
This is not a SCAM, it is a BUSINESS; and like all businesses, you must 
work in order 
to make it successful.  If you are honestly willing to put some effort 
and you have a little
patience you can earn enough money to make your life much more comfortable.
 
If you've read this far, chances are your are currently working in a home 
business or have in the past.  Unfortunately, there is also a 90% or better
chance that you are not seeing the kind of income you had hoped for either.

If you're honest with yourself, you know exactly what I'm saying. You 
did everything you were told to do, but it just hasn't happened for you, 
time and time again. Sound familiar?

Spend a fraction of the time you would at most day jobs or home 
businesses and make some cold, hard, CASH!!!!   I send out these emails, 
as many as I can, and people send me cash in the mail for information 
that I just email back to them. It is all completely legal, and I get to 
make that walk to the mailbox every day knowing that it is full of $5 
bills for me!!

What you are about to read is very exciting.  Prepare to be amazed.  
It will explain how almost anyone can legally make a lot of money, in 
CASH!!!

You don't need to have a lot of experience, time, or money to do this, 
but if you do - all the better!  The most important thing you need is 
the desire to get ahead, a bit of spare time, and an entrepreneurial 
spirit.

Have you been disappointed with a lot of so-called "opportunities" or 
all the hassles associated with selling on online auctions? This is 
different!  I'm sure you've heard that before, but please take a few 
minutes to go through the plan, and make sure you read all of the 
information.  

Make this the one you act upon! 


THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
   
BE WEALTHY LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!
   
Before you say "Bull", please read the following. This is the letter
you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of
this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently
devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described
below, to see if it really can make people money.  The show also 
investigated whether or not the program was legal.
  
Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely NO 
Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can 
follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks
with only $25 out of pocket cost."
   
  DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS
  ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.
   
This is what one had to say:  "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I 
live
in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make 
pretty good money.  When I received this program I grumbled to Jody 
about receiving "junk mail.  "I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my 
knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't 
work.
  
Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she
jumped in with both feet.  I made merciless fun of her, and was ready
to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work.
  
Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 
responses.  Within the next 45 days she had received total $147,200.00 
...... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby."
  
  Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois
   
  More testimonials later, but first:


  PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE

Please read the following
THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!

FOLLOW THE SAME INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR
FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE!

   Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. 


For each report, send $5 CASH (US CURRENCY), THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE
REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS (plus an alternate 
Email address, if you have another one (in case of unforeseen problems)
to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report.

MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER,
in case of any mail problems.
  
When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.  

You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your
computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.
   
Within a few days you will receive, via email, each of the 5 
reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer
so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who 
will order them from you. Also make a copy on a floppy disk of these
reports and keep it somewhere safe in case something happens to your 
computer. 
   
IMPORTANT!!! DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way
other than what is instructed below in steps "1 through 6" or you will 
lose out on a majority of your profits.
   
Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does
not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if
you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their
friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the
money. But it does not work this way.

Believe us, some of us have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. 
So do NOT change anything other than what is instructed. Because
if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!

  1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and
  REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has 
made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.
  
  2. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.
  
  3. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.
  
  4. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.
  
  5. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

  6. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE
  SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! (Using the cut & paste
feature makes it easy)
                  

  *** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save
it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a diskette as well just in case you lose any data. To assist
you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you 
purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which
includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of
free classified ads and much more.  Once you see the reports, you will
no doubt agree that $25 is a bargain.
   
There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going.

  METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY

Let's assume you start out small and send out only 5,000 emails.  With 
a 
0.001% response that means that you sell only 5 people the reports:*** 

1st level - You sell 5 reports for $5.00 each. You receive $25.00 cash. 

2nd level - Each of the 5 people you recruited will recruit 5 new members. 
That's 25 people x 5 new recruits each = 125 people. 
Which is 125 people x $5.00 ea. = you receive $625.00. 

3rd level - Those 125 people recruit 5 new members each. 
That's 125 people x 5 new recruits each = 625 people. 
Which is 625 people x $5.00 ea. = you receive $3,125. 

4th level - Those 625 people recruit 5 new members each. 
That's 625 people x 5 new recruits each = 3,125 people. 
Which is 3,125 people x $5.00 ea. = you receive $15,625. 

5th level - Those 3,125 people recruit 5 new members each. 
That's 3,125 people x 5 new recruits each = 15,625 people. 
Which is 15,625 x $5.00 ea. = you receive $78,125.

Your grand total is $97,525.

***Rather than exaggerate, our suggestion that you will only sell 5 reports 
is extremely low. You can expect significantly greater sales.  Many people 
will send out hundreds of thousands of emails instead of just 5,000.


METHOD # 2: BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
    
Advertising on the net is extremely inexpensive and there are hundreds 
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet
will easily get a larger response. This is an excellent way to get
started if you are low on cash!  You will, however, have a little less
work if you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD# 2 as you go along.
  
For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report
they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders.
   
This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and
address, will be prompt because they can not advertise until
they receive the report.
   
AVAILABLE REPORTS:

ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER AND NAME ONLY.  Notes:  Always send $5
cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.  Checks NOT accepted.  Make sure 
the cash is 
concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper.  On one sheet of 
paper, write or type the 
NUMBER and NAME of the Report you are ordering, your E-Mail ADDRESS, and 
an 
alternate, if you have one, and your name and postal address. 

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:


  
(Remember to check online or at your post office for the postal rate
for sending letters outside your country when applicable.)
  ______________________________________________________________
  
  REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net"
  
  Order Report # 1 from:
  
  D. D. Henderson
  PO Box 23086
  Pittsburgh, PA 15222-6086
  USA
  
  ______________________________________________________________
  
  REPORT # 2 : "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net"
   
  Order Report # 2 from:
   
  Peter Douglas
  5122 Cote-des-Neiges
  CP 49643
  Montreal, QC H3T 2A5
  CANADA

  (Note: From the US many people use 80-90 cents postage, please check 
if in doubt)
  _______________________________________________________________
  
  REPORT # 3: "The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net"
   
  Order Report # 3 from:

  L. Riopelle
  P.O. Box 37028
  St-Hubert, PQ J3Y 8N3
  CANADA

(Note: From the US many people use 80-90 cents postage, please check if 
in doubt)
  ______________________________________________________________
   
  REPORT # 4: "How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net"
   
  Order Report # 4 from:

  Patrick Chamberland
  332 Bleecker Street, H42
  New York, NY  10014
  USA
  _____________________________________________________________
   
  REPORT # 5: "HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE"
   
  Order Report # 5 from:

  C.W. Stansburg
  9272 Sunridge Dr.
  Huntington Beach, CA. 92646
  USA


  ____________________________________________________________
  

        $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
   
If you do not receive at least 5 orders for Report #1 
within 2weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.
   
After you have received 5 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that 
you should receive 25 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not,
continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do.

Once you have received 25 or more orders for Report # 2,YOU CAN
RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash 
will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your
name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different 
report.
   
You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are
ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME, SEND ANOTHER
BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to
the income you can generate from this business!!!

Remember to email a copy of this exciting report to yourself also, after 
you have put
your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ......# 5 as
instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out
100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them.
Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers 
you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO
YOU NOW!
  
  MORE TESTIMONIALS:


"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided
that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way 
that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least "get my money back."

I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed 
with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks.  The nice thing
about this deal is that it does not matter where people live.  There 
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  Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada


"It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with
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within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made 
$20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was
$362,840.00. Life is beautiful, thanks to internet."

  Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand


ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL 
FREEDOM!
   
If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade 
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: Section 
301, per Section 301, Paragraph (a) (2) (C) of S. 1618,

     http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html

This is a one time only email, you need not reply, as there will be no 
further identical emails from this source.





From seni at istiyorum.com  Sun Jul 21 07:26:25 2002
From: seni at istiyorum.com (seni at istiyorum.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:26:25 -0400
Subject: HIZLI & SINIRSIZ sex 
Message-ID: <200207211426.g6LEQPH11623@mail.bizland-inc.net>


4 kat Daha Hizli & Sinirsiz  baglantiya ne dersiniz???

18.451 adet mpeg video , 248.105 adet resim ar�ivimize, 48 Canl� sohbet odas�na sadece http://pembeliste.netfirms.com/videolar.exe  programini calistirarak ulasabilirsiniz.

Ayr�ca Hande ATAIZI nin 11.4dk Porno v�deosuna http://pembeliste.netfirms.com/hande_ataizi.exe programiyla ulasabilir ve download edebilirsiniz.


http://pembeliste.netfirms.com/videolar.exe





-

--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ben at algroup.co.uk  Sun Jul 21 03:47:18 2002
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:47:18 +0100
Subject: Maybe no stego on eBay afterall
References: <15670.65478.136672.341983@cabernet.nelson.monkey.org> <00af01c2300b$e0388850$6501a8c0@LUCKYVAIO> <20020720212944.GA4666@danisch.de>
Message-ID: <3D3A9136.8030504@algroup.co.uk>

Hadmut Danisch wrote:
> (Any idea how to make a picture reliably stego free against
> *any* stego detection software?)

Set all the pixels to the same value. Of course, you can trasmit a 
couple of bytes of information that way, and some more with the image 
size. So, I hereby decree that all pictures will be 256x256 pixels, 8 
bits per pixel, all bits set to 1. Guess we need to mandate the 
compression method, too, lest you transmit a few bits by choosing it. 
So, uncompressed TIFF format. Of course, there's massive benefit to 
this. Now all pictures can use the same URL. Consider the massive 
bandwidth saving caused by caching. What a benefactor I am.

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html       http://www.thebunker.net/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff


---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From info at clrea.com  Sun Jul 21 16:38:59 2002
From: info at clrea.com (info at clrea.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:38:59 -0700
Subject: ADV: buyers sellers agents loans
Message-ID: <W2KWEB1IBSIeSOm3WsT0001d3c8@w2kweb1.gosecurenet.com>

 	
 

Home for Sale? 
List with us! <http://www.clrea.com/whyusseller.cfm> 

Buying a home is an important step in your life and quite possibly the
largest purchase you will ever make. A trustworthy and reliable agent is
what you're looking for but often times it can be difficult to find a
real estate agent deserving of your trust.

Through recommendations and client evaluations we've assembled a
national association of Christian Real Estate Agents
<http://www.clrea.com/philosophy.cfm>  dedicated to fair business
practices and the teachings of our savior.

Christian Agents - click here to join the association
<http://www.clrea.com/assbenefits.cfm> 

Follow these easy steps <http://www.clrea.com/howworkbuyers.cfm>  and
we'll take care of the rest...

1. Describe the property you are looking using our Buyer's Information
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2. Our Christian Living Real Estate Associate Agent contacts you at your
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needs.

3. Our Christian Living Real Estate Associate Agent suggests properties
that fit your criteria and arranges for you to view the properties that
interest you.

4. During the decision making process, our Associate Christian Agent
provides reliable and honest guidance to get you the best possible deal.

5. When you've decided on a property to purchase, our agent makes all
the necessary preparations to ensure a trouble free transaction.

 <http://clrea.com> 

<To be removed from this list click here
<http://www.practicaltechnology.net/epsform/AutoOptOut.cfm?address=cyphe
rpunks at algebra.com&campaign=28>  
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From info at clrea.com  Sun Jul 21 16:39:35 2002
From: info at clrea.com (info at clrea.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:39:35 -0700
Subject: ADV: buyers sellers agents loans
Message-ID: <W2KWEB19QX2CTp2hFOW0001d482@w2kweb1.gosecurenet.com>

 	
 

Home for Sale? 
List with us! <http://www.clrea.com/whyusseller.cfm> 

Buying a home is an important step in your life and quite possibly the
largest purchase you will ever make. A trustworthy and reliable agent is
what you're looking for but often times it can be difficult to find a
real estate agent deserving of your trust.

Through recommendations and client evaluations we've assembled a
national association of Christian Real Estate Agents
<http://www.clrea.com/philosophy.cfm>  dedicated to fair business
practices and the teachings of our savior.

Christian Agents - click here to join the association
<http://www.clrea.com/assbenefits.cfm> 

Follow these easy steps <http://www.clrea.com/howworkbuyers.cfm>  and
we'll take care of the rest...

1. Describe the property you are looking using our Buyer's Information
Form <http://www.clrea.com/buyersform.cfm> .

2. Our Christian Living Real Estate Associate Agent contacts you at your
convenience to get a better understanding of your specific real estate
needs.

3. Our Christian Living Real Estate Associate Agent suggests properties
that fit your criteria and arranges for you to view the properties that
interest you.

4. During the decision making process, our Associate Christian Agent
provides reliable and honest guidance to get you the best possible deal.

5. When you've decided on a property to purchase, our agent makes all
the necessary preparations to ensure a trouble free transaction.

 <http://clrea.com> 

<To be removed from this list click here
<http://www.practicaltechnology.net/epsform/AutoOptOut.cfm?address=cyphe
rpunks at einstein.ssz.com&campaign=28>  
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From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Sun Jul 21 13:46:01 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:46:01 EDT
Subject: Real Drugs-Viagra and Phentrimine!
Message-ID: <200207212059.NAA89585@s1089.mb00.net>

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From cristp at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 22 03:49:45 2002
From: cristp at hotmail.com (cristp at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:49:45 -1600
Subject: Lose 29 Pounds In 10 Days GUARANTEED!!!30712
Message-ID: <00004b08111d$000068f5$00003388@hooting.net>

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From unsubs-fdf2d323b4-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Sun Jul 21 12:12:58 2002
From: unsubs-fdf2d323b4-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com (Special Deals)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:12:58 +0000
Subject: Are you a little behind the times?
Message-ID: <200207211921.OAA11775@einstein.ssz.com>

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"unsubscribe" in the subject or simply click on the following link:
http://unsubscribe.verticalresponse.com/u.html?fdf2d323b4/aa3b97bcc2


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From TopSpecialOffers__r-60763006-1047 at top-special-offers.com  Sun Jul 21 12:13:03 2002
From: TopSpecialOffers__r-60763006-1047 at top-special-offers.com (Top Special Offers)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:13:03 UT
Subject: Friend, Save 75% on Printer Ink!
Message-ID: <200207211921.OAA11781@einstein.ssz.com>

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From oceandrive at email.is  Sun Jul 21 12:29:29 2002
From: oceandrive at email.is (oceandrive at email.is)
Date: 21 Jul 2002 19:29:29 -0000
Subject: Copy DVD's to regular CD-R discs and watch on your DVD Player.d7l7
Message-ID: <20020721192929.4583.qmail@server2011.virtualave.net>



Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (oceandrive at email.is) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 at 12:29:29
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

: Why Spend upwards of $4000 on a DVD Burner when we will show you an alternative that will do the exact same thing for just a fraction of the cost? Copy your DVD's NOW. Best Price on the net. Click here: http://005 at www.dvdcopyxp.com/cgi-bin/enter.cgi?marketing_id=dcx007 Click to remove http://005 at www.spambites.com/cgi-bin/enter.cgi?spambytes_id=100115 

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From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz  Sun Jul 21 00:47:39 2002
From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:47:39 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: Photos of Bad Aibling RSOC posted
Message-ID: <200207210747.TAA237104@ruru.cs.auckland.ac.nz>


I've finally got around to posting the photos of Bad Aibling RSOC which I took
two years ago.  From the web page:

  There are very few photos of the Bad Aibling RSOC around, only one or two
  rather old, grainy illustrations which presumably came from newspaper
  articles.  When I was in the area in the summer of 2000 I took the
  opportunity to wander round and take a few photos, which I've posted below
  as scanned.  These were taken with a borrowed camera and a fixed 50mm lens,
  so don't expect too much (I'm a cryptographer, not a photographer).  Note
  that this page can take awhile to load because of the number and size of the
  images.

Available at http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/misc/badaibling.html.

Peter.




From artch at yeah.net  Sun Jul 21 14:21:18 2002
From: artch at yeah.net (newjobs)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:21:18 GMT
Subject: ��Ƹ����ְnewjobs��������
Message-ID: <200207211332.IAA07287@einstein.ssz.com>

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From NAVMSE-INEDA at ineda.com  Sun Jul 21 21:53:40 2002
From: NAVMSE-INEDA at ineda.com (NAV for Microsoft Exchange-INEDA)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 23:53:40 -0500
Subject: Norton AntiVirus detected and quarantined a virus in a message yo
	u sent.
Message-ID: <5D21D2AFF84ED511832100508BE7FF03130A2A@INEDA>

Recipient of the infected attachment:  Sandi Cory\Inbox
Subject of the message:  W32.Elkern  removal tools
One or more attachments were quarantined.
  Attachment install.exe was Quarantined for the following reasons:
    Virus W32.Klez.H at mm was found.
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From TopSpecialOffers__r-60763006-1054 at top-special-offers.com  Sun Jul 21 18:52:21 2002
From: TopSpecialOffers__r-60763006-1054 at top-special-offers.com (Top Special Offers)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 01:52:21 UT
Subject: Have skin like a model
Message-ID: <200207220200.VAA23351@einstein.ssz.com>

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From cal1972 at rediffmail.com  Sun Jul 21 19:08:17 2002
From: cal1972 at rediffmail.com (Chet Leech)
Date: 22 Jul 2002 02:08:17 -0000
Subject: Need some help-Carnivore questions
Message-ID: <20020722020817.4407.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com>

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From ie9mugg9p0681 at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 22 14:59:55 2002
From: ie9mugg9p0681 at hotmail.com (Brianna)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 02:59:55 -1900
Subject: Herbal Viagra 30 day trial....                  
Message-ID: <0000373c47ac$00007c7b$0000347c@mx06.hotmail.com>

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From Emaildata at china1mail.com  Sun Jul 21 12:40:34 2002
From: Emaildata at china1mail.com (Manager)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 03:40:34 +0800
Subject: * Promote Your E-Business
Message-ID: <200207211950.OAA12363@einstein.ssz.com>

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From bcaarj at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 22 12:56:23 2002
From: bcaarj at hotmail.com (bcaarj at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 03:56:23 -1600
Subject: FW:>Re: Herbal Supplements only $24.99! Limited supply.                   NTZY
Message-ID: <00007d2926aa$00006ad2$000055ab@byrgestudio.com>

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From winnermefawvxn at fasterpopmail.com  Mon Jul 22 03:11:58 2002
From: winnermefawvxn at fasterpopmail.com (winnermefawvxn at fasterpopmail.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 05:11:58 -0500
Subject: INC 500 Co. Seeks Mgrs. / High $$ Paid!
Message-ID: <1027329118.1116@localhost.localdomain>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

cypherpunks at algebra.com


HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO: 

   Make More Money? 
   Work the Hours You Choose? 
   Be Your Own Boss? 
   Spend More Quality Time With Your Family? 
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Go to http://www.netvisionsenterprises.com/rirb716b/c5b




From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-332 at mm53.com  Sun Jul 21 23:04:31 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-332 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:04:31 UT
Subject: Friend, Act FAST! Getting a CREDIT CARD is as easy as 1,2,3!
Message-ID: <200207220612.BAA30644@einstein.ssz.com>

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From omnicube20016647141 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 22 03:33:38 2002
From: omnicube20016647141 at yahoo.com (Contest Admin)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:33:38 -0400
Subject: Hello hmlflk ! It's Time
Message-ID: <200207221033.g6MAXTj12080@relay1.mail.iol.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 22 04:52:17 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:52:17 -0500
Subject: TIME.com: The NSA Draws Fire
Message-ID: <3D3BF1F1.F80B78D2@ssz.com>


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,322587,00.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Mon Jul 22 04:46:01 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:46:01 EDT
Subject: Get McAfee VirusScan for just $19.95! 60% Off!
Message-ID: <200207221159.EAA83411@s1082.mb00.net>

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From davidsanders at americandebtsettlement.com  Mon Jul 22 06:22:45 2002
From: davidsanders at americandebtsettlement.com (davidsanders at americandebtsettlement.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:22:45 -0500
Subject: ADV: STOP CREDITORS NOW!
Message-ID: <200207221322.g6MDMjWr005671@ak47.algebra.com>

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From InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com  Mon Jul 22 06:03:37 2002
From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (Insight on the News)
Date: 22 Jul 2002 09:03:37 -0400
Subject: Insight on the News Email Edition
Message-ID: <200207220904556.SM01248@broadbandpublisher.com>


INSIGHT NEWS ALERT!

A new issue of Insight on the News is now online

http://insightmag.com/news/258763.html

...............................................

Folks, the summer�s upon us here in the nation�s capital. And, matching the 
weather, your representatives are heatedly working to improve the Wall Street 
mess. Let�s hope they don�t make it worse. Jennifer Hickey tells all in her 
revealing Washington�s Week piece http://insightmag.com/news/258785.html. 

And Zoli Simon has discovered that the Chinese have targeted Russian cruise 
missiles at U.S. ships. Read all about it 
http://insightmag.com/news/258778.html. And guess which party is poised to 
become a major force in time for the November elections? Hint � It�s not the 
Republicans or Democrats http://insightmag.com/news/258781.html. Along with the 
usual reliable revelations and opinions described below. �Bye for now. From the 
Bunker, I remain your newsman in Washington.

...............................................

CHINA ARMS FOR WAR

Zoli Simon writes that China's acquisition of cruise-missile weapons systems 
from Russia poses a clear and present danger to U.S. naval forces � and to the 
American homeland as well.

http://insightmag.com/news/258778.html

...............................................

WASHINGTON�S WEEK � ON THE LEGISLATIVE WARPATH

Jennifer Hickey tells us as investor anger registered more clearly with each 
downward tick of the stock markets, legislators engaged in an indelicate 
parliamentary exchange of whoops about arcane congressional rules while they 
danced and ululated to mutual charges of chicanery.

http://insightmag.com/news/258785.html

...............................................

TAX CODE TRAUMA

John Berlau tells us that experts contend that simplifying the U.S. tax code 
would do more to cut down on corporate-accounting chicanery than the 
introduction of still more regulations and criminal penalties.

http://insightmag.com/news/258763.html



 ========================================

               Is Bin-Laden the Pawn of China?

On September 11, 2001, a Chinese Peoples Liberation Army transport aircraft from 
Beijing landed in Kabul with the most important delegation the ruling Taliban 
had ever received.  They had come to sign the contract with Afghanistan that 
Osama bin-Laden had asked for, that would provide the Taliban state of the art 
air defense systems in exchange for the Taliban's promise to end the attacks by 
Muslim extremists in China's north-western regions.  Hours later, CIA Director 
George Tenet received a coded "red alert" message from Mossad's Tel Aviv 
headquarters that presented what he called a "worst case scenario" -- that China 
would use a ruthless surrogate, bin-Laden, to attack the United States.  In 
SEEDS OF FIRE, Gordon Thomas asks the question: In the war on terror, is China 
with us or against us?  Click here: 
http://www.conservativebookservice.com/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=C5969&sour_cd=INT003901

 ========================================



AUSTRIA CONFRONTS ITS DARK NAZI PAST

Ken Timmerman writes that as a government commission prepares to release an 
inventory of property stolen from Jews by the Nazis, a new tide of anti-Semitism 
is sweeping the country.

http://insightmag.com/news/258764.html

...............................................

�PARTY OF PRINCIPLE� GAINING GROUND

Doreen Englert says, once an afterthought on the U.S. political landscape, the 
Libertarian Party steadily has increased both in numbers and influence since its 
founding 30 years ago.

http://insightmag.com/news/258781.html

...............................................

CHURCH EXPLORES �HARD CHANGE�

Jennifer Hickey writes that seeking to repair its severely damaged reputation 
and begin the healing process, the Catholic Church takes steps to implement a 
nationwide policy on sexual abuse.

http://insightmag.com/news/258761.html


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From frissell at panix.com  Mon Jul 22 08:15:15 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:15:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Are the Feds Wimps or What?
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207221114230.29265-100000@panix3.panix.com>


So far the massive crackdown by the Feds that has stripped me of my civil
liberties hasn't managed to do much. They have to work a bit harder.

I'm back to not showing ID to get into work just like before the war.

The states where I choose not to obtain a drivers license have upped
their ID requirements for initial license applications but I already have
one and don't patronize them in any case. They still let foreigners drive
with foreign licenses so I will become a foreigner if they get too
uppity.

Flight delays only slightly worse than usual (particularly since I mostly
fly internationally and have always shown my passport). Domestic flight
ID fascism is 6 years old this August so no change there.

As far as we know, only a little more than 1000 detained out of a pop of
270 megs. I was expecting that we would at least make WWII levels --
200,000+ out of a population of 132 megs. I guess there could be a few
more internees but they'd be tough to hide. Too many others would note
their absence.

I thinks the Feds are just to wimpy to indulge in actual oppression these
days. At least on a wholesale basis.

Maybe I'm wrong but I need more evidence first.

--
Posted by Duncan Frissell to The Technoptimist at 7/20/2002 9:06:27 PM

Powered by Blogger Pro




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Jul 22 08:43:36 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:43:36 -0400
Subject: Are the Feds Wimps or What?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD44@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Duncan Frissell[SMTP:frissell at panix.com]
> 
> 
> So far the massive crackdown by the Feds that has stripped me of my civil
> liberties hasn't managed to do much. They have to work a bit harder.
> 
> I'm back to not showing ID to get into work just like before the war.
> 
> The states where I choose not to obtain a drivers license have upped
> their ID requirements for initial license applications but I already have
> one and don't patronize them in any case. They still let foreigners drive
> with foreign licenses so I will become a foreigner if they get too
> uppity.
> 
> Flight delays only slightly worse than usual (particularly since I mostly
> fly internationally and have always shown my passport). Domestic flight
> ID fascism is 6 years old this August so no change there.
> 
> As far as we know, only a little more than 1000 detained out of a pop of
> 270 megs. I was expecting that we would at least make WWII levels --
> 200,000+ out of a population of 132 megs. I guess there could be a few
> more internees but they'd be tough to hide. Too many others would note
> their absence.
> 
> I thinks the Feds are just to wimpy to indulge in actual oppression these
> days. At least on a wholesale basis.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong but I need more evidence first.
> 
> --
> Posted by Duncan Frissell to The Technoptimist at 7/20/2002 9:06:27 PM
> 
> Powered by Blogger Pro
> 
Well, the other possible interpretation is that the Feds are not
black-at-heart, Big Brother, neo Stalinist fascist JBTs 
pouncing on any opportunity to make confetti of the Bill of Rights;
but rather are actually trying to respond to 9/11 with a minimal
impact on US Citizens.

...but of course, that would be an unpopular interpretation on
this mailing list.

--------

The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

Peter Trei




From freelove4u at people.com  Mon Jul 22 13:26:24 2002
From: freelove4u at people.com (Nice one)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:26:24
Subject: REALLY WONDERRFUL
Message-ID: <200207221225.g6MCP3Wr002526@ak47.algebra.com>


Hi we are luke's secret following we love luke fictitious!
Now more than ever!
We are also your long lost friend! Hi

This email has nothing to do with lukefictitious.com

We will be putting up our very own fan site soon
and wanted to let you know in advance!

Have a beautiful day!




From adewale1 at mail.com  Mon Jul 22 14:31:56 2002
From: adewale1 at mail.com (BARRISTER JOHNSON AKERELE)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:31:56 -0700
Subject: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
Message-ID: <200207220126.UAA22363@einstein.ssz.com>


BARRISTER ADEWALE COKER CHAMBERS
Legal Practitioners / Notary Public
Blk 804- Law House Building
Lagos-Nigeria.

For your kind attention,


              REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
It is my humble pleasure to write you this letter irrespective of the fact that you do not know me.  However,I am in search of a reliable and trustworthy person that can handle a confidential transaction of this nature.

I am BARRISTER ADEWALE COKER, a family lawyer to our former military rule,General Sani Abacha who died suddenly in power some years ago. Since his untimely demise, the family has suffered a lot of harassment from the regimes that succeeded him.  The regime and even the present civilian government are made up of Abacha's enemies.Recently, the wife was banned from traveling outside Kano State their home state as a kind of house arrest and the eldest son still in detention.Although, a lot of money have been recovered from Mrs. Abacha since the death of her husband by the present government, there's still huge sums of money in hard currencies that we have been able to move out of the country for safe keeping to the tune of US$50 million.This money US$50 Million is already in North American and if you are interested,we will prepare you as the beneficiary of the total funds,and you will share 25% of the total funds after clearance from the Security Company.

Note, there is no risk involved in this project because l am involved as Abacha's confidant.Please you should keep this transaction a top secret and we are prepared to do more business with you pending your approach towards this project.I await your urgent response.Thanks.


Yours Faithfully

BARRISTER ADEWALE COKER.










From adewale1 at mail.com  Mon Jul 22 14:35:46 2002
From: adewale1 at mail.com (BARRISTER JOHNSON AKERELE)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:35:46 -0700
Subject: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
Message-ID: <200207220130.UAA22453@einstein.ssz.com>


BARRISTER ADEWALE COKER CHAMBERS
Legal Practitioners / Notary Public
Blk 804- Law House Building
Lagos-Nigeria.

For your kind attention,


              REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
It is my humble pleasure to write you this letter irrespective of the fact that you do not know me.  However,I am in search of a reliable and trustworthy person that can handle a confidential transaction of this nature.

I am BARRISTER ADEWALE COKER, a family lawyer to our former military rule,General Sani Abacha who died suddenly in power some years ago. Since his untimely demise, the family has suffered a lot of harassment from the regimes that succeeded him.  The regime and even the present civilian government are made up of Abacha's enemies.Recently, the wife was banned from traveling outside Kano State their home state as a kind of house arrest and the eldest son still in detention.Although, a lot of money have been recovered from Mrs. Abacha since the death of her husband by the present government, there's still huge sums of money in hard currencies that we have been able to move out of the country for safe keeping to the tune of US$50 million.This money US$50 Million is already in North American and if you are interested,we will prepare you as the beneficiary of the total funds,and you will share 25% of the total funds after clearance from the Security Company.

Note, there is no risk involved in this project because l am involved as Abacha's confidant.Please you should keep this transaction a top secret and we are prepared to do more business with you pending your approach towards this project.I await your urgent response.Thanks.


Yours Faithfully

BARRISTER ADEWALE COKER.










From al at qaeda.org  Mon Jul 22 15:41:32 2002
From: al at qaeda.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithym)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:41:32 -0700
Subject: Are the Feds Wimps or What?
Message-ID: <3D3C8A1C.234DD52E@qaeda.org>


At 11:15 AM 7/22/02 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>So far the massive crackdown by the Feds that has stripped me of my
civil
>liberties hasn't managed to do much. They have to work a bit harder.
>
>I'm back to not showing ID to get into work just like before the war.
>

Well, you showed it to them enough times, they believe you now :-)




From cristy_16 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 23 00:54:13 2002
From: cristy_16 at hotmail.com (cristy_16 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:54:13 -1600
Subject: #1 COLON CLEANSER_HURRY & IMPROVE YOUR HEALTH                     3212
Message-ID: <000011b55e62$00006641$00007b0d@1-800-onetel.com>

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From MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org  Mon Jul 22 14:19:54 2002
From: MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org (MAILER-DAEMON at mail.hal-pc.org)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:19:54 -0500
Subject: #1 COLON CLEANSER_HURRY & IMPROVE YOUR HEALTH                     3212
In-Reply-To: <000011b55e62$00006641$00007b0d@1-800-onetel.com>
Message-ID: <react-15393360@mail.hal-pc.org>


The domain home.com no longer accepts email.
If you are trying to email someone with an @home.com
email address you should contact them by other means
to get their new email address.

--- 
<Postmaster at hal-pc.org>




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Jul 22 17:22:34 2002
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:22:34 -0700
Subject: Do we need a national ID plan?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020722171722.050f6e50@pop3.lvcm.com>


In  this article http://news.com.com/2010-1079-945347.html?tag=politech you 
said:
"That's a reasonable position: The White House has never made an 
unequivocal statement against the scheme, and it's possible that America 
could edge toward a situation where the federal government devises an ID 
and orders everyone to carry it at all times. Most European countries 
already require just that."

Wouldn't this requirement violate the probable cause requirement for 
seizures of a person which been defined by a series of cases, beginning 
with Terry v. Ohio , 392 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968)?

steve




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 22 16:11:29 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:11:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NewsForge: Commerce Dept. to invite consumer groups to discuss DRM (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020722181115.30667D-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/07/21/1941202.shtml?tid=4


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 22 16:13:41 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:13:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Student Gadfly Runs Afoul of American U. (washingtonpost.com) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020722181329.30667F-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41882-2002Jul21.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 22 16:14:04 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:14:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Register - IETF puts weight behind AES (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020722181345.30667G-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://theregister.co.uk/content/6/26311.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 22 16:14:19 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:14:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ZDNet: Story: Hey thief! You just TRY stealing this notebook (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020722181408.30667H-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2874992,00.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 22 16:14:34 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:14:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: kuro5hin.org || Government Audited v Public Source E-Voting (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020722181423.30667I-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/7/20/195423/751


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From winnersgxieavv at wwwspop.com  Mon Jul 22 16:23:38 2002
From: winnersgxieavv at wwwspop.com (winnersgxieavv at wwwspop.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:23:38 -0500
Subject: YOU WON!
Message-ID: <1027376618.1123@localhost.localdomain>


 cypherpunks at algebra.com

YOU WON A FREE PORN PASSWORD!!


FREE PORN ACCESS ALL THE PORN YOU CAN HANDLE!!

DO ME NOW I WANT YOU TO CUM!!!

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From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Mon Jul 22 15:36:01 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:36:01 EDT
Subject: Double The Speed of Your Computer!
Message-ID: <200207222250.PAA57096@s1112.mb00.net>

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From nobody at paranoici.org  Mon Jul 22 09:41:43 2002
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:41:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Are the Feds Wimps or What?
Message-ID: <4190f20b0072c6d6834e36a00a34ba66@paranoici.org>


On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:43:36 -0400, you wrote:
>
> Well, the other possible interpretation is that the Feds are not
> black-at-heart, Big Brother, neo Stalinist fascist JBTs
> pouncing on any opportunity to make confetti of the Bill of Rights;
> but rather are actually trying to respond to 9/11 with a minimal
> impact on US Citizens.
>
> ...but of course, that would be an unpopular interpretation on
> this mailing list.

Popularity, or lack thereof, of acts and plans by the government, which the government itself 
holds secret, provides little support for the "fascisim arising school", nor for the "just looking 
out for our citizens" school.

We are left to look back to history, and to see if we find any pattern of result from when 
extensive surveillance power, secret courts, secret detentions, suspension of the writ of habeas 
corpus, all during an undeclared war. Or we can see if we believe that power corrupts and absolute 
power corrupts absolutely.

But beyond this, did you see George W. Bush smile just after 9/11 when he said "This war is going 
to take a very long time"? Do you recall the popularity of Winston Churchill during WWII, and how 
he was immediately dumped after the German surrender? Do you recall how the US-Iraq war took Bush 
I to grand heights of popularity, but by election time, the war was over, there were no heroes 
marching, and it came down to "it's the economy stupid"? Now what did Bush II learn from this:

Either 1) Make sure that Americans know you are on top of their concerns about the economy and you 
know how it is affecting everyday people, and keep the economy going strong.

or

2) Even if there are no attacks on the US by Al Qaeda after 9/11, keep a war hysteria going and 
show military force as the basis of maintaining wartime support levels from wartime patriotism.




From dld_phiri at lycos.com  Mon Jul 22 19:38:34 2002
From: dld_phiri at lycos.com (Donald Phiri)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:38:34
Subject: Strictly Private.
Message-ID: <200207231140.GAA07712@einstein.ssz.com>


Gooday,

With warm heart my friend, I send you my greetings, and I hope this letter meets you in good time. 

It will be surprising  to you to receive this proposal from me since you do not know me personally. However, I am sincerely seeking your confidence in this transaction, which I propose with my free mind and as a person of intergrity. I have kept it to myself for a long time, and now I need to act, as time is not on my side. I want you to open-heartedly read through and give me your most needed support. I got your address from an internet directory, in my search for a contact. I apologize if this is not acceptable to you. The purpose of this letter is to seek your most needed assistance. 

My name is Donald Phiri, the farm supervisor and personal assistant to Mr. David Stevens, a very popular and rich farmer from Macheke, Zimbabwe. My master was murdered in cold blood in my presence on 15 of April 2001, due to the land dispute and political situation in my country, as a result of my master's financial support for the MDC (Movement for Democratic Change), the main opposition party to President Mugabe's party,  Zimbabwe African National Union Patriotic Front (ZANU-PF) . For more information on my master's murder, you may check the Amnesty International Country Report on Zimbabwe for the year 2001.

When the pressure on white farmers started in Zimbabwe due to the support given to the war veterans by President Mugabe to invade farms and force out white farmers, my master forsaw the danger ahead, he then closed his major bank accounts, and together, we went to Johannesburg, South Africa to deposit the sum of $14.5 million (Fourten million, five hundred thousand USdollars), in a private security company, for safety. This money was deposited in a box in my name, as my master was being secretive with his name, as the South African government of Thambo Mbeki is in support of President Mugabe's actions. The box is labeled as gemstones. My master had planned to use this money  for the purchase of lands, new machines and chemicals for establishment of new farms in Botswana. He has used this company in the past to move money for the purchase of tractors and farm equipment from Europe. My master is divorced, and his wife Valerie, and only child, Diana have relocated to Bradford, !
En!
gland for 9years now. 

I am currently in the Netherlands where I am seeking political asylum. I have now decided to transfer my  master's  money into an account for security and safety reasons. This is why I am anxiously and humbly seeking for your genuine assistance in transfering this money into an account without the knowledge of my government who are bent on taking everything my master left. You have to understand that this decision taken by me entrusts so much to you.

If you accept to assist me, all I want you to do for me, is to make an arrangements with the security company to clear the box containing the money from their office here in the Netherlands, and then we will transfer the money into an account. You may open a new account for this purpose. I have applied to the security company to transfer the box from South Africa to their branch here, which they have done. 

To legally process the claim of the box, I will contact a lawyer to help me prepare a change of ownership and letter of authority to enable them recognise you as my representative, and deliver the box to you. I have with me, the certificate used to deposit the box, which we will need for claiming the box. 

For valuable assistance, I am offering you 10%($1,450,000) of the total money. I have also set aside 1%($145,000) of this money for all kinds of expenses that come our way in the process of this transaction, and 4%($580,000), will be given to Charity in my master's name I will give 25% ($3,625,000) to Valerie and Diana, after my share of the money has been transfered back to me. When they grant my asylum application, my share of the money (85%), will be transfered back to me, into an account I will solely own. I also intend to start up a business then. If you have knowledge of farming business in your country, or other areas of possible business investment that I may be interested in, please inform me, so that my some of my share of the money can be invested for the time being.

Please, I want to you maintain absolute secrecy for the purpose of this transaction due to my safety and successful conclusion of the transaction. 

I look forward to your reply and co-operation, and I am sure it will be nice to extend ties with you.

Yours sincerely,
Donald Phiri. 









From unsubs-96a0aef8be-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com  Mon Jul 22 13:30:11 2002
From: unsubs-96a0aef8be-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com ( Special Deals)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:30:11 +0000
Subject: Learn the Secrets of Investing in Real Estate Today!
Message-ID: <200207222038.PAA19509@einstein.ssz.com>


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______________________________________________________________________
You are receiving this email because you requested to receive info and
updates via email.

To unsubscribe, reply to this email with "unsubscribe" in the subject or
simply click on the following link:
http://unsubscribe.verticalresponse.com/u.html?96a0aef8be/aa3b97bcc2


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From informatively at vmabox676.com.cc  Tue Jul 23 06:51:43 2002
From: informatively at vmabox676.com.cc (informatively at vmabox676.com.cc)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:51:43 -1600
Subject: Free Digital TV installed in 4 rooms.                       14599
Message-ID: <00003a521bf1$00004fc0$00000c1f@vmabox676.com.cc>



<> Get up to 4 receivers installed in 4 rooms! 
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From salty at onlinehomepage.com  Mon Jul 22 23:55:20 2002
From: salty at onlinehomepage.com (salty at onlinehomepage.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:55:20 -0800
Subject: HUGE Online SALE! Phentermine, Tenuate, Xenical & more.
Message-ID: <mfnx7c3ay37h5qwh.77h54y8@mx11.hotmail.com>

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From pharmacy at runbox.com  Mon Jul 22 22:35:58 2002
From: pharmacy at runbox.com (Adam Cohen)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:35:58 -0600
Subject: Phentermine,Xenical,Viagra
Message-ID: <200207230536.g6N5a73x008521@ak47.algebra.com>

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From va7tobz8c6682 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 23 11:43:05 2002
From: va7tobz8c6682 at hotmail.com (Caroline)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:43:05 -1900
Subject: Toners and inkjet cartridges for less....                     CUN
Message-ID: <000015482b49$0000276f$00006bf4@mx06.hotmail.com>

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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-335 at mm53.com  Mon Jul 22 17:09:12 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-335 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 00:09:12 UT
Subject: Friend, Get this Cell Phone for Free!
Message-ID: <200207230017.TAA24130@einstein.ssz.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Jul 23 01:43:18 2002
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 01:43:18 -0700
Subject: Do we need a national ID plan?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020722171722.050f6e50@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020723013608.02a763b0@idiom.com>


At 05:22 PM 07/22/2002 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>In  this article http://news.com.com/2010-1079-945347.html?tag=politech 
>you said:
>"That's a reasonable position: The White House has never made an 
>unequivocal statement against the scheme, and it's possible that America 
>could edge toward a situation where the federal government devises an ID 
>and orders everyone to carry it at all times. Most European countries 
>already require just that."
>
>Wouldn't this requirement violate the probable cause requirement for 
>seizures of a person which been defined by a series of cases, beginning 
>with Terry v. Ohio , 392 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968)?

Of course it would.  That's why we'll probably never have a
National ID Card - we'll just have a driver's license that's
technically enhanced with personal data and biometrics
and forgery resistance and gets used for everything that a
national ID card would be used for if we had such things
(except that kids won't be required to carry them,
unless they want to drive, drink, go to government schools,
or be out after dark, and we'll probably see increased use of
Student ID Cards with pictures, SSNs, and biometrica.)




From AGNES at dell.com  Tue Jul 23 01:39:24 2002
From: AGNES at dell.com (Will)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 03:39:24 -0500
Subject: . hjew
Message-ID: <200207230839.g6N8cs3x027779@ak47.algebra.com>

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From cripto at ecn.org  Mon Jul 22 19:10:54 2002
From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:10:54 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Do we need a national ID plan?
Message-ID: <3a4e995c1c6b6aae189a20cbe11b62fb@ecn.org>


On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:22:34 -0700, you wrote:
>
> Wouldn't this requirement violate the probable cause requirement for seizures
> of a person which been defined by a series of cases, beginning with Terry v. Ohio
> , 392 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968)?
>
> steve

You are quite idealistic. Neither the Constitution nor case law matters. Neither constrains the 
behavior of law enforcement.

http://www.aclu.org/news/2002/n022002c.html

"ACLU of CO Sues Federal and State Law Enforcement

Agencies Over Illegal SWAT Raid on Family
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
ednesday, February 20, 2002

DENVER--The American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado filed a lawsuit today alleging that federal 
and state law enforcement agents violated the constitutional rights of a Pueblo family when they 
conducted an illegal SWAT-type raid on the family's home with no warrant or other legal authority.

Once again, the war on drugs misses the target and instead scores a direct hit on the 
Constitution, said Mark Silverstein, Legal Director of the ACLU of Colorado. These government 
agents had no search warrant, no arrest warrant, and no lawful authority whatsoever.

They carried out this armed home invasion in flagrant disregard of the Fourth Amendment, which 
forbids unreasonable searches and arrests without probable cause.

According to the ACLU lawsuit, which was filed on behalf of Dan and Rosa Unis and their two 
college-aged sons, on August 19, 2000, the family was peacefully enjoying the privacy of their 
home when black-masked, black-helmeted men brandishing automatic weapons and wearing all-black 
uniforms with no insignias suddenly burst into the house unannounced, kicked the family's dog 
across the floor and ordered the entire family to "get on the fucking floor."  "

Don't forget to be patriotic.




From ABRAHAM at mho.net  Tue Jul 23 02:26:41 2002
From: ABRAHAM at mho.net (MAY)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:26:41 -0500
Subject: . bsvvy
Message-ID: <200207230934.EAA04379@einstein.ssz.com>

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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-336 at mm53.com  Mon Jul 22 23:48:05 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-336 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:48:05 UT
Subject: Friend,  Meet over 1 million singles at Date.com
Message-ID: <200207230656.BAA00780@einstein.ssz.com>

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From frissell at panix.com  Tue Jul 23 03:51:44 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:51:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Are the Feds Wimps or What?
In-Reply-To: <3D3C8A1C.234DD52E@qaeda.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207230649010.4424-100000@panix2.panix.com>


On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Optimizzin Al-gorithym wrote:

> >I'm back to not showing ID to get into work just like before the war.
> >
>
> Well, you showed it to them enough times, they believe you now :-)

Maybe it was the 14 years they'd been seeing me.

I actually didn't show it that much even during the early part of the war.
I often went to the back of the building and entered using the electronic
lock.

DCF




From ericm at lne.com  Tue Jul 23 07:17:09 2002
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:17:09 -0700
Subject: Tunneling through a hostile proxy?
In-Reply-To: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD4C@exna07.securitydy
  namics.com>; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at
  09:42:49AM -0400
References: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD4C@exna07.securitydyn
  amics.com>
Message-ID: <20020723071709.A12321@slack.lne.com>


On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 09:42:49AM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
 
> If you're interested in tunneling other protocols
> than HTTP, things get more complex. Assuming
> SSL tunneling is allowed you can run other
> protocols through it if you can set up the software
> at each end appropriatly.

So who's written an IP-over-HTTP(S) library?

Reminds me of Ranum's NFS-over-SMTP firewall
bypassing proof of concept.


BTW Roy, first try ssh on a non-standard non-reserved port.

Eric




From ebargains at reply.mb00.net  Tue Jul 23 04:45:04 2002
From: ebargains at reply.mb00.net (Ebargains)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 07:45:04 EDT
Subject: Free MP3 Player - Listen To Great Books! 
Message-ID: <200207231200.FAA36236@s1083.mb00.net>

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From roy at scytale.com  Tue Jul 23 06:01:14 2002
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:01:14 -0500
Subject: Tunneling through a hostile proxy?
Message-ID: <3D3D0D4A.961.177A81@localhost>


This may have been discussed before, but a Google search has 
turned up lacking.

Given internet access from a private intranet, through an HTTP 
proxy out of the user's control, is it possible to establish a secure 
tunnel to an outside server?  I'd expect that ordinary SSL 
connections will secure user <-> proxy and proxy <-> server 
separately, with the proxy able to observe cleartext.  Could an SSH 
connection be made under these conditions?

Pointers appreciated, thanks.
--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com




From kate.23 at hotsexshows.com  Tue Jul 23 05:21:33 2002
From: kate.23 at hotsexshows.com (Kate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:21:33 -0400
Subject: live SEX SHOWS
Message-ID: <200207231230.HAA09395@einstein.ssz.com>

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From rsw at jfet.org  Tue Jul 23 05:27:27 2002
From: rsw at jfet.org (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:27:27 -0400
Subject: Tunneling through a hostile proxy?
In-Reply-To: <040c01c2324e$2cca79a0$c71121c2@sharpuk.co.uk>; from DaveHowe@gmx.co.uk on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:38:00PM +0100
References: <3D3D0D4A.961.177A81@localhost> <040c01c2324e$2cca79a0$c71121c2@sharpuk.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020723082727.A3928@positron.quux>

David Howe <DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> Not sure if it is what you are asking - but a HTTP proxy doesn't handle
> the SSL; it simply forwards the packets to the destination site, and
> forwards the reply back to you; the SSL encryption is handled by your
> machine and the server (the proxy doesn't touch it)
> In theory, if your corporate force-included its own root key into your
> browser, they could generate their own certificates on the fly and have
> it work transparently - but checking who issued the cert would show that
> up.

Doing this would violate the HTTP CONNECT semantics described in the
IETF Internet-Draft "Tunneling TCP based protocols through Web proxy
servers" by Ari Luotonen.  Not that that's stopping anyone.

I've written a perl module, Net::HTTPTunnel, that allows you to make a
CONNECT tunnel through an HTTP proxy and treat it as a normal socket
object (it's very simple---it just handles talking to the proxy server
and returns an IO::Socket::INET object).  It's available on CPAN.

Note that most proxy servers are configured to allow CONNECTs only to
port 443 (https) and 563 (snews).  Of course, all you have to do to
get around this is run an ssh server on port 443 or port 563 on a
machine you control that lives outside the firewall.

Using the above-mentioned perl module, have a program listening for
connections on your machine inside the firewall which will, upon
receiving a connection, establish a CONNECT tunnel and forward packets
in both directions.  Now all you do is ssh to that port on your local
machine and tunnel any other protocols you want through the ssh
connection (for example, run squid on the machine outside the firewall
and forward a local port to the squid server across the SSH tunnel if
you wish to conceal your at-work browsing habits).  I'm using just
such a tunnel to write this email.

Of course, there are lots of ways to make tunnels.  A good friend of
mine used to tunnel through his high school's firewall using a program
he tossed off that would get the data back and forth through the
firewall in HTTP POSTs.  Sure, it's more complicated, but when his
school turned off CONNECTs to prevent the method described above, he
took it personally.

I think there's even a program out there that creates a (very high
latency!) tunnel using email.

-- 
Riad Wahby
rsw at jfet.org
MIT VI-2/A 2002




From Emaildata at china1mail.com  Mon Jul 22 18:19:16 2002
From: Emaildata at china1mail.com (Manager)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:19:16 +0800
Subject: Promote Your Business
Message-ID: <200207230129.UAA27006@einstein.ssz.com>

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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Jul 23 06:42:49 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:42:49 -0400
Subject: Tunneling through a hostile proxy?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD4C@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Roy M. Silvernail[SMTP:roy at scytale.com]
> 
> This may have been discussed before, but a Google search has 
> turned up lacking.
> 
> Given internet access from a private intranet, through an HTTP 
> proxy out of the user's control, is it possible to establish a secure 
> tunnel to an outside server?  I'd expect that ordinary SSL 
> connections will secure user <-> proxy and proxy <-> server 
> separately, with the proxy able to observe cleartext.  Could an SSH 
> connection be made under these conditions?
> 
> Pointers appreciated, thanks.
> --
> Roy M. Silvernail
> Proprietor, scytale.com
> roy at scytale.com
> 
It's been some time since I've worked on proxies, but
AFAIK, SSL connections tunnel through proxies already,
and the proxy cannot examine the content of the SSL
session (though of course, they *can* see where the
connection is headed).

It's easy to check - go to an SSL protected website,
and while viewing the page examine the certificate 
the site presented you with (click on 'security' in the 
toolbar in Netscape, or on IE, click 
Files->Properties->Certificates). If the certificate 
belongs to the site you're accessing, you're secure
from observation by the proxy. (the proxy can't
act as a MITM if the cert is from the far end).

If you wish to access a website which is not SSL
protected, try http://www.megaproxy.com, which 
will encrypt browsing data between itself and your
browser, even for non-SSL sites. All your local
proxy can tell is that you are doing something
at megaproxy (and megaproxy knows everything).

If you're interested in tunneling other protocols
than HTTP, things get more complex. Assuming
SSL tunneling is allowed you can run other
protocols through it if you can set up the software
at each end appropriatly.

Peter Trei




From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Jul 23 10:10:18 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:10:18 -0700
Subject: IP, brinworld, censorship: Tipper Whore filmer attacked by
  campus police
Message-ID: <3D3D8DFA.45B6F588@cdc.gov>


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41882-2002Jul21.html

Even before the big dust-up at the Tipper Gore appearance, Ben Wetmore
was a gadfly of some notoriety at American University. The poli-sci
major from Texas had elbowed his way into the ranks of student
government but ended up getting impeached after a dispute with fellow
legislators.

Then he started a Web journal devoted to criticizing and lampooning
campus leaders -- particularly President Benjamin Ladner, whose stately
home and car Wetmore took to photographing and posting on his site as
evidence of what he saw as administrative extravagance.

"He's kind of like a Matt Drudge, but more immature," a fellow student
politician said of Wetmore.

Wetmore had a pretty shaky relationship with the administration by April
8, when the former vice president's wife went to speak at the campus.
Wetmore brought his video camera, suspicious that Gore was drawing a
large fee and reasoning that "there should at least be a record of her
being here," he said.

Midway through her speech, campus police officers approached Wetmore and
demanded that he hand over the tape. After a scuffle, he was arrested
and sent to a campus disciplinary panel, which placed him on probation
and removed him from his elected office as dorm president. Among the
charges: theft of Gore's intellectual property by videotaping her
speech.

The case has outraged free speech watchdogs and civil libertarians, who
say the university's claim is a flimsy attempt to stifle Wetmore's
journalistic freedom. They say campus officials singled out Wetmore for
excessive enforcement and punishment, and denied him a fair hearing,
because of his political views.

"The idea that a student videotaping a public event would be taken
outside, pinned to the ground and handcuffed, [then] be accused of an
intellectual property violation is shocking," said Greg C. Luckianoff, a
staff member with the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, a
Philadelphia-based advocacy group that has hired a lawyer for Wetmore.
"This was just plain thuggishness."

American University officials say that they were protecting Gore's
rights while preserving order in the auditorium and that Wetmore
escalated the situation by refusing to comply with campus police.

"We have our conduct code, and we expect students to adhere to it," Dean
of Students Faith C. Leonard said. "If there are violations, they will
be adjudicated by an impartial hearing body."

Wetmore's supporters say the school's actions are part of a trend of
colleges using restrictive discipline to silence critics. This spring at
West Virginia University, administrators attempted to corral protests in
designated "free speech zones." At the University of California at San
Diego, administrators briefly charged student journalists with
"disruption" for taking photos at a public meeting.

The debate echoes the political correctness battles of the 1980s and
1990s, when campus administrators tried to ban hate speech and some
conservatives complained of an academic climate that shouted down their
voices. The Wetmore case, though, might be driven less by ideology than
by something noted by another of his supporters: "He's annoying."

Wetmore said his interest in Gore's speech, which included a
presentation of her published photos, was prompted by a rumor that the
campus was paying her tens of thousands of dollars. College sources
would not disclose the fee, although they say it was much less.

"If we're going to spend so much to have her talk, let's tape it so that
people who aren't there can see it," Wetmore said last week.

At Gore's speech, he sat in the bleachers toward the back of Bender
Arena. An organizer announced at the start that flash photography was
prohibited but said nothing about videotaping, so Wetmore set the camera
on his lap and started it rolling.

Campus officials were disturbed when they spotted the camera -- Gore's
contract with the university stipulated that her presentation could not
be recorded. According to documents from Wetmore's disciplinary hearing,
an officer was sent to tell Wetmore to stop taping and go to the lobby.

Wetmore refused. Another officer joined them, but Wetmore refused to
leave or relinquish his tape. The confrontation started to distract the
audience, according to university documents.

A third officer arrived, and Wetmore agreed to go to the lobby. But when
he refused to hand over the tape, a scuffle erupted. Wetmore says he was
pushed against a wall, threatened with Mace, pushed to the floor and
handcuffed.

After about an hour at the campus public safety office, he was released
-- without his tape, which the university holds.

Among the many campus charges Wetmore faced -- disorderly conduct,
failure to comply with officers and others -- he and his supporters are
most outraged by the charge of theft. "Videotaping a public event is not
theft," said Thor Halvorssen, executive director of the Foundation for
Individual Rights in Education.

Lawyers unconnected to the case say it's a blurry area. Jonathan Band,
an intellectual property expert in the District, says technically,
Gore's speech was comparable to a theatrical production. "If he's taping
it, he's infringing and copying her public performance."

Still, he said, Wetmore probably would have a strong defense, especially
because the speech was by a political figure -- Gore had abandoned a
possible Senate run weeks before -- that Wetmore was videotaping for
First Amendment, not commercial, purposes.

"It is a very technical charge to assert as the basis of campus
punishment," said First Amendment lawyer Floyd Abrams. "A lawyer can
make a case that her copyright rights were violated, but it is a very
unattractive case."

Gore declined to comment on the issue. "This is clearly a matter between
the university and the student," a staff member said.

Wetmore and his supporters also claim that he was denied due process by
the campus disciplinary board. The three-person panel that heard his
case included a student government rival, Wetmore was required to
testify against himself and he was allowed no formal appeal beyond a
review by the dean of students.

But other lawyers say that campus judicial panels -- with the power, at
most, to throw someone out of school -- are not criminal courts and that
due process does not apply.

Many on campus disagree with the handling of the case, which leaves
Wetmore on probation, at risk of being expelled. Evan Wagner, a student
journalist, resigned from the university's Conduct Council in protest.

"You're talking about someone who doesn't really do any damage, who is
about to be kicked out of school," he said.




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 23 10:32:57 2002
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:32:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Computer Assisted Passenger Screwing
Message-ID: <20020723173257.4949.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>


Carnival Booth: An Algorithm for Defeating the Computer-Assisted
Passenger Screening System


http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu/6805/student-papers/spring02-papers/caps.htm



=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com




From jason.gruber at btinternet.com  Tue Jul 23 04:42:37 2002
From: jason.gruber at btinternet.com (Jason)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:42:37 +0100
Subject: Uk Privacy, they have started on the Children first
Message-ID: <008e01c2323e$0b78c320$230213ac@ukdcs.co.uk>


Hi,

Dont normally post this kind of thing, but since many readers have children
they may not know this is going on.


http://theregister.co.uk/content/4/26305.html




From kataga at africamail.com  Tue Jul 23 13:16:23 2002
From: kataga at africamail.com (Dr. Kataga Bakori)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:16:23
Subject: Awiating your fax response.
Message-ID: <200207231222.HAA08882@einstein.ssz.com>


(Fax) to  my direct confidential  Fax No: 234 1 7591666  

Dr. Kataga Bakori
Lagos, Nigeria.
23rd July 2002


Attention President/C.E.O
                   
Dear Sir,

REQUEST FOR URGENT BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP.

Firstly I must solicit your strictest confidence in this subject. This is by virtue of its nature as 
being utterly confidential and top secret. A member of the Nigeria Export Promotion Council 
(N.E.P.C.) who was part of the federal government delegation to your country during a trade 
exhibition gave your particulars to me. I have decided to seek a confidential operation with 
you in the execution of the deal described hereunder for the benefit of all the parties and 
hope that you keep it top secret because of the nature of the business.

Within the ministry of petroleum resources where I work as a director of engineering and 
projects, and with the co-operation of four other very top officials, we have under our 
control as overdue contract payments, bills totaling Thirty One Million United States Dollars, 
which we want to transfer to a foreign account, with the assistance and co-operation of a 
foreign company to receive the said funds on our behalf or a reliable foreign individual 
account to receive the funds.

The source of the fund is as follows: during the last military government here in Nigeria 
which lasted bout eleven months, government officials set up companies and awarded 
themselves various contracts which were grossly over-invoiced in various ministries.  The 
present civilian government is not aware of the atrocities committed by their predecessors 
and as a result, we have a lot of such over invoiced contract payment s pending which we 
have identified floating at the central bank of Nigeria ready for payment.  However by virtue 
of our position as civil servants, we cannot acquire this money in our names.  I was 
therefore delegated as a matter of urgency by my colleagues to look for an over seas 
partner into whose account we would transfer the sum of  US$31,000,000.00 (THIRTY 
ONE MILLION UNITED STATES DOLLARS) hence we are writing you this letter.

 the present civilian government is determined to pay foreign contractors l debts owed 
so as to maintain an amiable relationship with foreign governments and non-government 
financial agencies.  We have decided to include our bills for approval with the co-operation 
of some officials of the federal ministry of finance (F.M.F) and the central bank of Nigeria 
(C.B.N).  We are seeking your assistance in providing us with a good company account or 
any other offshore bank account into which we can remit this money by acting our main 
partner and trustee or acting as the original contractor.  This we can do by swapping of 
account information and changing of beneficiary and other pertinent information to apply for 
payment.  By this act, we would be using your company information to apply for payment, 
and prepare letters of claim and job description on behalf of your company.  This process 
would be an internal arrangement with the departments concerned.

I have the authority of my partners involved to propose that should you be willing to assist 
us in this transaction, your share as compensation will be us$6.2 million (20%), us$21.7 
million (70%) for us and us$3.1 (10%) for 
taxation and miscellaneous expenses.

The business itself is 100% safe, provided you treat it with utmost secrecy and 
confidentiality.  Also your area of specialization is not m hindrance to the successful 
execution of this transaction.  I have reposed my confidence in you and hope that you will 
not disappoint me. 

I will bring the complete picture of the transaction to your 
knowledge when I have heard from you.

Thanks for your co-operation,

Yours faithfully,

Dr. Kataga Bakori

NB: Please respond by sending a facsimile (Fax) to  my direct confidential  Fax No: 234 1 
7591666  




From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk  Tue Jul 23 06:38:00 2002
From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (David Howe)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:38:00 +0100
Subject: Tunneling through a hostile proxy?
References: <3D3D0D4A.961.177A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <040c01c2324e$2cca79a0$c71121c2@sharpuk.co.uk>


Roy M. Silvernail <roy at scytale.com> was seen to declaim:
> Given internet access from a private intranet, through an HTTP
> proxy out of the user's control, is it possible to establish a secure
> tunnel to an outside server?  I'd expect that ordinary SSL
> connections will secure user <-> proxy and proxy <-> server
> separately, with the proxy able to observe cleartext.  Could an SSH
> connection be made under these conditions?
Not sure if it is what you are asking - but a HTTP proxy doesn't handle
the SSL; it simply forwards the packets to the destination site, and
forwards the reply back to you; the SSL encryption is handled by your
machine and the server (the proxy doesn't touch it)
In theory, if your corporate force-included its own root key into your
browser, they could generate their own certificates on the fly and have
it work transparently - but checking who issued the cert would show that
up.




From listfeed at crypto-central.com  Tue Jul 23 07:27:06 2002
From: listfeed at crypto-central.com (List Feed)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:27:06 +0200
Subject: Tunneling through a hostile proxy?
In-Reply-To: <3D3D0D4A.961.177A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020723161833.0211fc70@localhost>


Take a look at http://www.htthost.com

This allows you to tunnel through a proxy using HTTP and arrive at an 
external tunnel server. The tunnel link through the proxy can be encrypted 
using a static symmetric key (no SSL). The tunnel server can be running on 
a machine over which you have control on the outside of the proxy zone.

I'm assuming that you want to do what I am doing (that is to keep whatever 
I am doing from the proxy log files) so a symmetric key would do you and 
will save on the key set up.

The system is free, but is only suitable for Windows boxes.

Hope this helps.


At 08:01 23.07.2002 -0500, you wrote:
>This may have been discussed before, but a Google search has
>turned up lacking.
>
>Given internet access from a private intranet, through an HTTP
>proxy out of the user's control, is it possible to establish a secure
>tunnel to an outside server?  I'd expect that ordinary SSL
>connections will secure user <-> proxy and proxy <-> server
>separately, with the proxy able to observe cleartext.  Could an SSH
>connection be made under these conditions?
>
>Pointers appreciated, thanks.
>--
>Roy M. Silvernail
>Proprietor, scytale.com
>roy at scytale.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:09:22 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:09:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Schmidt Predicts Digital Sky Is Falling (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723180908.30667Q-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/23/1426240.shtml?tid=172


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:09:35 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:09:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | MPAA vs. Television (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723180924.30667R-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/23/1241245.shtml?tid=129


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:10:18 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:10:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Register - UK unveils Open Source policy, may make it 'default'  option (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723180959.30667T-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://theregister.co.uk/content/4/26335.html


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              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
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     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:10:32 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:10:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Register - NTL loses key email wiretap case on appeal (UK) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723181021.30667U-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://theregister.co.uk/content/6/26336.html


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              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:11:00 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:11:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Register - No more JPEG's - ISO to withdraw image standard (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723181038.30667V-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://theregister.co.uk/content/4/26339.html


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              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jason at lunkwill.org  Tue Jul 23 11:11:04 2002
From: jason at lunkwill.org (Jason Holt)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:11:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Tunneling through hostile proxy
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207231800070.13165-100000@zayda.com>


>> Roy M. Silvernail[SMTP:roy at scytale.com]
>> Given internet access from a private intranet, through an HTTP 
>> proxy out of the user's control, is it possible to establish a secure 
>> tunnel to an outside server?  I'd expect that ordinary SSL 
>> connections will secure user <-> proxy and proxy <-> server 
>> separately, with the proxy able to observe cleartext.  Could an SSH 
>> connection be made under these conditions?
[...]

	The default behavior for an SSL proxy is to pass the encrypted bytes
back and forth, allowing you to connect all the way to the other server.  
However, it is possible for the proxy to have its own CA which has been added
to your browser.  Then it acts as a man in the middle and pretends to be the
remote host to you, and vice versa.  In that case, it works as you describe,
watching the data during its interim decryption.

	Typically, the proxy would give you generic certificates (like
"*.com"), but it could conceivably generate a certificate for each site you
visit ("secure.yahoo.com", etc.).  The way to tell would be to look at the
issuing authority according to your browser - if it's one of the public ones,
like Thawte, you've got a connection to the far end.  If it's "Th4wt3", or
your company's, the proxy is probably watching.

	Incidentally, another company that does private browsing over SSL is
www.orangatango.com (along with other nifty anonymizing stuff).

					-J




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:11:12 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:11:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NewsForge: Rethinking spam (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723181102.30667W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/07/21/2332247.shtml?tid=5


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
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     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:11:58 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:11:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New Scientist - Gene patents "inhibit innovation" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723181140.30667Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992580


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    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
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     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:12:23 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:12:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Business of America - July 2002 - Pushing the Envelope (in the  1860's) - The birth of the global village (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723181203.30667Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.americanheritage.com/AMHER/2002/03/business.shtml


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:13:14 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:13:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CNN.com - Suit filed against UNC seeks to block required reading of  Islamic book - July 23, 2002 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723181304.30667a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/07/23/quran.book.lawsuit.ap/index.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:13:50 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:13:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: NewsForge: AFFECT will continue to oppose UCITA (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020723181339.30667c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://newsvac.newsforge.com/newsvac/02/07/23/1838238.shtml?tid=52


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From kennethuba at mail.com  Tue Jul 23 09:18:41 2002
From: kennethuba at mail.com (Mr.Kenneth Uba)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:18:41 +0200
Subject: Urgent Business
Message-ID: <200207231727.MAA15045@einstein.ssz.com>


>From the Desk of Mr. Kenneth Uba
 
Union Bank of Nigeria,
 
Lagos-Nigeria.
 
 
 
ATTN: THE PRESIDENT/C.E.O
 
STRICTLY A PRIVATE BUSINESS PROPOSAL
 
 
 
Dear Sir,
 
I am Mr. Kenneth Uba, the manager bills and exchange
at the Foreign Remittance Department of the Union Bank of Nigeria Plc. 
 
I am writing this letter to ask for your support and
cooperation to carry out this business opportunity in my department. 
 
We discovered an abandoned sum of $31,000,000.00 (Thirty One million United States Dollars only) in an account that belongs to one of our foreign customers who died along with his entire family of a wife and two children in November 1997 in a Plane crash.
 

 
Since we heard of his death, we have been expecting his next-of-kin to come over and put claims for his money as the heir, because we cannot release the fund from his account unless someone applies for claim as
the next-of-kin to the deceased as indicated in our banking guidelines.
Unfortunately, neither their family member nor distant relative has ever appeared to claim the said fund. 
 
Upon this discovery, I and other officials in my department have agreed to make business with you and release the total amount into your account as the heir of the fund since no one came for it or discovered he maintained account with our bank, otherwise the fund will be returned to the bank's treasury as unclaimed fund.
 
We have agreed that our ratio of sharing will be as stated thus; 
20 % for you as foreign partner, 75 % for us the officials in my department and 5 % for the settlement of all local and foreign expenses incurred by us and you during the course of this business.
 

Upon the successful completion of this transfer, I and one of my colleagues will come to your country and mind our share. It is from our 75 % we intend to import Agricultural machineries into my country as a way of recycling the fund.  

To commence this transaction, we require you to immediately indicate your interest by a return e-mail and enclose your private contact telephone number, fax number full name and address and your designated
bank coordinates to enable us file letter of claim to the appropriate departments for necessary approvals before the transfer can be made.

Note also, this transaction must be kept STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL because of its nature. 
 
I look forward to receiving your prompt response.
 
 
 
Mr. Kenneth Uba
 
Union Bank of Nigeria.
 





From kennethuba at mail.com  Tue Jul 23 09:18:41 2002
From: kennethuba at mail.com (Mr.Kenneth Uba)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:18:41 +0200
Subject: Urgent Business
Message-ID: <200207231727.MAA15047@einstein.ssz.com>


>From the Desk of Mr. Kenneth Uba
 
Union Bank of Nigeria,
 
Lagos-Nigeria.
 
 
 
ATTN: THE PRESIDENT/C.E.O
 
STRICTLY A PRIVATE BUSINESS PROPOSAL
 
 
 
Dear Sir,
 
I am Mr. Kenneth Uba, the manager bills and exchange
at the Foreign Remittance Department of the Union Bank of Nigeria Plc. 
 
I am writing this letter to ask for your support and
cooperation to carry out this business opportunity in my department. 
 
We discovered an abandoned sum of $31,000,000.00 (Thirty One million United States Dollars only) in an account that belongs to one of our foreign customers who died along with his entire family of a wife and two children in November 1997 in a Plane crash.
 

 
Since we heard of his death, we have been expecting his next-of-kin to come over and put claims for his money as the heir, because we cannot release the fund from his account unless someone applies for claim as
the next-of-kin to the deceased as indicated in our banking guidelines.
Unfortunately, neither their family member nor distant relative has ever appeared to claim the said fund. 
 
Upon this discovery, I and other officials in my department have agreed to make business with you and release the total amount into your account as the heir of the fund since no one came for it or discovered he maintained account with our bank, otherwise the fund will be returned to the bank's treasury as unclaimed fund.
 
We have agreed that our ratio of sharing will be as stated thus; 
20 % for you as foreign partner, 75 % for us the officials in my department and 5 % for the settlement of all local and foreign expenses incurred by us and you during the course of this business.
 

Upon the successful completion of this transfer, I and one of my colleagues will come to your country and mind our share. It is from our 75 % we intend to import Agricultural machineries into my country as a way of recycling the fund.  

To commence this transaction, we require you to immediately indicate your interest by a return e-mail and enclose your private contact telephone number, fax number full name and address and your designated
bank coordinates to enable us file letter of claim to the appropriate departments for necessary approvals before the transfer can be made.

Note also, this transaction must be kept STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL because of its nature. 
 
I look forward to receiving your prompt response.
 
 
 
Mr. Kenneth Uba
 
Union Bank of Nigeria.
 





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:20:40 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:20:40 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Hunt for bin Laden goes online - July 23, 2002
Message-ID: <3D3DE4C8.A3AB26EE@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/23/binladen.internet/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:27:32 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:27:32 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | WebTV/MSNTV Virus Dials 911
Message-ID: <3D3DE664.23738065@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/23/2044250.shtml?tid=172
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:30:22 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:30:22 -0500
Subject: Jackson likens cops to 'militia,' terrorists -- The Washington Times
Message-ID: <3D3DE70E.8609A48C@ssz.com>


http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020723-85008396.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:32:12 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:32:12 -0500
Subject: S.F. considers growing its own / Ballot measure will ask city to cultivate pot for medicinal use
Message-ID: <3D3DE77C.59F28F2@ssz.com>


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/07/23/MN169580.DTL

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Jul 23 16:37:56 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:37:56 -0500
Subject: Scientific American Article: Ask the Experts - Small World Networks
Message-ID: <3D3DE8D4.101265BD@ssz.com>


http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000D52E0-D89D-1D35-90FB809EC5880000&catID=3
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From okarfor5000 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jul 23 19:28:35 2002
From: okarfor5000 at yahoo.co.uk (okarfor5000 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:28:35
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207231832.g6NIW23x016471@ak47.algebra.com>


DEAR SIR,

IT IS WITH HEART FULL OF HOPE THAT I 
WRITE,SOLICITINGFOR YOUR STRICT 
CONFIDENCE IN THIS TRANSACTION.THIS IS 
BY VIRTUE OF IT'S NATURE AS BEING 
CONFIDENTAIL AND A TOP SECRET. I AM 
CHIEF ACCOUNTANT, BEACON NIGERIA 
LIMITED. ANOIL COMPANY BASED IN DELTA 
STATE (NIGER/DELTA)NIGERIA. WITH A 
BRANCH OFFICE AT LAGOS. I GOT YOUR 
INFORMATION IN A BUSINESS DIRECTORY 
FROM THE NIGERIAN CHAMBER OF 
COMMERCE AND INDUSTRIES WHEN I 
WASSEARCHING FOR A RELIABLE,HONEST 
AND TRUSTWORTHY PERSON TO ENTRUST 
THIS BUSINESS WITH. I WAS SIMPLY 
INSPIREDAND MOTIVATED TO PICK YOUR 
CONTACT FROM THE MANY NAMESAND LISTS 
IN THE DIRECTORY BEACON WAS INVOLVED 
IN PROSPECTING, DRILLING AND BUNKERING 
OF OIL AT HIGH SEA (OFFSHORE),WITH 
EXPATRIATE CONSISTING MAJORITY OF THE 
STAFF STRENGTH. UNFORTUNATELY, THESE 
EXPATRIATES GOT INTO AN ILLEGALSALE OF 
OIL AND THE MONEY FROM IT TRANSFERRED 
THROUGHA SECURITY COMPANY OUT OF THE 
COUNTRY BUT WITH A SECURITY STAMP ON 
IT. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OFNIGERIA 
DISCOVERED THE ILLEGAL DEAL,REVOKED 
THEIRLICENCE AND THE EXPARTRIATES WERE 
REPATRIATED.SO,BY VIRTUE OF MY POSITION 
AS THE ACCOUNTANT OF THECOMPANY, I 
HAVE IN MY POSSESSION DOCUMENTS 
CONTAINING INFORMATION ABOUT TWO OF 
THESE TRUNK BOXES DEPOSITEDWITH THE 
SECURITY COMPANY. THE CONTENT OF 
THESE BOXES IS TWELVE MILLION UNITED 
STATES DOLLARS (US$12M). I HAVE PUT IN AN 
APPLICATION WITH THE SECURITY COMPANY 
TO TRANSFER THESE BOXES TO THEIR 
CORRESPONDENCE OFFICE IN AMERICA OR 
EUROPE WHICH THEY HAVE OBLIGED. 
ANDBEING THAT THISDEAL WAS BEEN 
CARRIED OUT BY FOREIGN FIRM, I NEED A 
TRUSTWORTHY FOREIGNER LIKE YOU THAT 
WILL ASSIST ME TOA LOGICAL CONCLUSION 
OF THIS PENDING BUSINESS WHICHBOTH OF 
US WILL BOUND TO BENEFIT EARNESTLY.ALL 
I NEED FROM YOU IS TO STAND BEFORE THE 
SECURITY COMPANY AND SIGN AS ONE OF 
EXPATRIATES TO ENABLE YOU CLAIM THE 
MONEY AND PAY IT INTO YOUR BANK 
ACCOUNT.PLEASE, NOTE THAT THIS 
TRANSACTION IS 100% RISK-FREE,FOR EVERY 
MACHINERIES HAS BEEN PUT IN PLACE FOR 
SUCCESSFUL CONCLUSION. REMEMBER, THAT 
I HAVE WITH MEALL THE NECESSARY 
DOCUMENTS THAT WILL PROVE THAT 
THEMONEY IS FOR US. I EXPECT YOU TO BE 
TRUSTWORTHY ANDKIND ENOUGH TO KEEP 
MY OWN SHARE, WHEN THE MONEY GET TO 
YOUR ACCOUNT. THOUGH MY WIFE WILL BE 
COMING OVER TOYOUR COUNTRY ONCE THE 
MONEY IS TRANSFERRED. I HEREBY AGREE TO 
COMPENSATE YOUR SINCERE AND CANDID 
EFFORT IN THIS REGARD WITH 20% OF THE 
FUND AFTER THE TRANSFER AND 10% 
(PERCENT) WILL BE SET ASIDE FOR ANY 
EXPENSES BOTH LOCAL AND INTERNATIONAL 
TRANSPORTATION,TELEPHONE BILLS ETC. 
WILL BE SETTLED FROM THIS PERCENTAGE, 
WHILE 70% WILL BE HELD ON TRUST FOR 
ME.THIS DEAL WILL BE CONCLUDED WITHIN 
SEVEN (7)WORKING DAYS.I WILL BE LOOKING 
FORWARD TO DOING BUSINESS WITH 
YOU,AND SOLICIT YOUR CONFIDENTIALITY 
IN THIS TRANSACTION.PLEASE 
ACKNOWLEDGE THE RECEIPT OF THIS 
PROPOSAL BY MAILING ME BACK THROUGH 
MY E-MAIL ADRRESS 

YOURS FAITHFULLY,
CHARLES OKAFOR.

NB:PLEASE, REPLY VIA THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS 
(charles5000 at onebox.com)




From test1 at test1.com  Tue Jul 23 03:32:06 2002
From: test1 at test1.com (test1)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:32:06 +0900
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200207241036.FAA24243@einstein.ssz.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
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From jason at lunkwill.org  Tue Jul 23 12:58:00 2002
From: jason at lunkwill.org (Jason Holt)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:58:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Tunneling through hostile proxy
In-Reply-To: <20020723202426.A179288@exeter.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207231951050.13165-100000@zayda.com>


On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Adam Back wrote:
[...]
> > However, it is possible for the proxy to have its own CA which has
> > been added to your browser.  Then it acts as a man in the middle and
> > pretends to be the remote host to you, and vice versa.  In that
> > case, it works as you describe, watching the data during its interim
> > decryption.
> 
> While it's _possible_ to do this, I've never heard of a server hosted
> application that advertises that it's doing this.  I would think it
> would be quite hard to get a CA to issue you a certificate if this is
> what you intended to do with it (act as a general MITM on SSL
> connections you proxy).
[...]

I don't know of any other real-world examples.  Rescorla mentions the
technique on pp. 316-319 of "SSL and TLS".  Certainly Thawte isn't going to
issue such wildcard certs, for exactly the reasons you mention.  That's why
you (or your government, or company, or whoever keeps an eye on you) create
your *own* CA and tell your browser to trust it.  Then it'll accept the
wildcard certs without complaint.

						-J




From adam at cypherspace.org  Tue Jul 23 12:24:26 2002
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:24:26 +0100
Subject: Tunneling through hostile proxy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207231800070.13165-100000@zayda.com>; from
  jason@lunkwill.org on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 06:11:04PM +0000
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207231800070.13165-100000@zayda.com>
Message-ID: <20020723202426.A179288@exeter.ac.uk>


On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 06:11:04PM +0000, Jason Holt wrote:
> 	The default behavior for an SSL proxy is to pass the encrypted bytes
> back and forth, allowing you to connect all the way to the other server.  

This isn't just the default behavior; it's the only defined behavior
right?

> However, it is possible for the proxy to have its own CA which has
> been added to your browser.  Then it acts as a man in the middle and
> pretends to be the remote host to you, and vice versa.  In that
> case, it works as you describe, watching the data during its interim
> decryption.

While it's _possible_ to do this, I've never heard of a server hosted
application that advertises that it's doing this.  I would think it
would be quite hard to get a CA to issue you a certificate if this is
what you intended to do with it (act as a general MITM on SSL
connections you proxy).

There have been applications which do this locally eg. a no longer
shipped product called SafePassage by c2.net, and achilles a SSL
debugger both of which are local proxies and both of which ask the
user to install a certificate allowing this when they are installed.
The installed certificate is self-signed however, and not issued by a
CA, as it is only valid for that user machine anyway, the user won't
want to buy a cert to authenticate information to their own machine,
it would be less secure to do so, and the user won't want to pay for
this certificate.

> 	Typically, the proxy would give you generic certificates (like
> "*.com"), 

Is there any software actually doing this?  (I know wild card certs
are available, but would think a wild card cert on .com would be a
very dangerous thing for a CA to issue, and you'd hope browsers would
be smart enough to reject such certs).

> but it could conceivably generate a certificate for each site you
> visit ("secure.yahoo.com", etc.).  

This is what SafePassage et al do.

Adam




From insiderreports at amuro.net  Tue Jul 23 02:48:38 2002
From: insiderreports at amuro.net (Opportunity Forum)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:48:38 +1100
Subject: Make $1,400 - $9,000 Per Month From Home - Residual Income!
Message-ID: <013c56c17a4b$2154e5c7$2be85de1@gbfewi>

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From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Jul 23 20:53:23 2002
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: William Pierce Dies of Cancer at 68
Message-ID: <200207240353.g6O3rNW04172@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Pierce made a lot of sense, if one ignored the politically incorrect
hyperbole in his writings.  It is ironic that Pierce died on the day
Zionist War Criminal Ariel Sharon described destroying an apartment
building full of civilians with a missile as "...in my view one of our
biggest successes."

-----

CHARLESTON, W.Va. (July 23, 2002 6:52 p.m. EDT) - White supremacist leader
William Pierce, whose book "The Turner Diaries" is believed to have
inspired Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, died Tuesday of cancer. He
was 68.

Pierce died at his compound in Mill Point, said his business manager, Bob
DeMarias. He became ill about three weeks ago and his kidneys failed,
DeMarias said.

The novel, which some have called a grisly blueprint for a bloody race
war, includes a chapter titled "Day of the Rope." It describes white
corpses hung from every street corner with placards reading, "I defiled my
race."

FBI investigators said McVeigh was a fan of Pierce's book and used it as a
blueprint for bombing the Oklahoma City federal building in 1995. The book
includes a truck-bombing of FBI headquarters. The Oklahoma City bombing
wasn't the first violence that federal prosecutors linked to "The Turner
Diaries," which was published in 1978.

In 1985, 10 members of a supremacist group called The Order were convicted
of racketeering and other charges in Seattle. Among the crimes they were
accused of were armored-car robberies and the 1984 machine-gun slaying of
Jewish radio talk show host Alan Berg.

One witness testified that a defendant told him, "You should read it,
partner, it's all there. Everything that's going to happen is in 'The
Turner Diaries."'

Pierce led his group, the National Alliance, from a two-story steel
building on 400 acres deep in the Appalachians four hours southwest of
Washington.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups, estimated the
group makes more than $1 million a year, mainly through sales of white
power music and supremacist or neo-Nazi literature.

[The Southern Poverty Law Center was revealed in "Harpers" to be little
more than a group of money-grubbing Bible thumpers using racial animus as
a theme to solicit donations.

Harper's Magazine
November, 2000
The Church of Morris Dees
How the Southern Poverty Law Center profits from intolerance
by Ken Silverstein

http://www.politechbot.com/p-03500.html

emc]

"This is the major hate group in the United States. It's the most
organized, the best run and the wealthiest," said Mark Potok, editor of
the center's intelligence report on hate groups.

Recently, Pierce began using the Internet to promote his recording label,
Resistance Records - "The soundtrack for white revolution." In an
interview last July, Pierce, a former physics professor, said he hoped his
"long-term goal is to be the biggest distributor and producer of
resistance music in the world. We may be there now."

The Anti-Defamation League estimated last year that Resistance Records
received about 50 orders a day, with each order averaging $70. The league
won't say how it comes by its information, but Pierce had said the figures
were "not too far off." That would make gross revenues about $1.27 million
a year.

Potok said the National Alliance has experts in computers, Web site
design, video game technology, short-wave broadcasting and video
production.
   
DeMarias said the group would continue to operate "as it did before."
Pierce's death is a significant development because the group has no clear
heir, Potok said.

"It seems quite likely that the group will be led essentially by committee
in the coming months. The problem for this group is that it is a group
that is built around a single man, William Pierce."

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From ben at algroup.co.uk  Tue Jul 23 13:41:34 2002
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:41:34 +0100
Subject: Tunneling through hostile proxy
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207231800070.13165-100000@zayda.com>
  <20020723202426.A179288@exeter.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3D3DBF7E.8020705@algroup.co.uk>


Adam Back wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 06:11:04PM +0000, Jason Holt wrote:
> 
>>	The default behavior for an SSL proxy is to pass the encrypted bytes
>>back and forth, allowing you to connect all the way to the other server.  
> 
> 
> This isn't just the default behavior; it's the only defined behavior
> right?
> 
> 
>>However, it is possible for the proxy to have its own CA which has
>>been added to your browser.  Then it acts as a man in the middle and
>>pretends to be the remote host to you, and vice versa.  In that
>>case, it works as you describe, watching the data during its interim
>>decryption.
> 
> 
> While it's _possible_ to do this, I've never heard of a server hosted
> application that advertises that it's doing this.  I would think it
> would be quite hard to get a CA to issue you a certificate if this is
> what you intended to do with it (act as a general MITM on SSL
> connections you proxy).

Errr - its tricky anyway, coz the cert has to match the final 
destination, and, by definition almost, that can't be the proxy.

I believe its pretty common for server farms to use SSL-enabled reverse 
proxies where the SSL terminates at the proxy. Different scenario, though.

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html       http://www.thebunker.net/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff




From qe2caps1n9683 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 24 09:41:52 2002
From: qe2caps1n9683 at hotmail.com (Stephanie)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:41:52 -1900
Subject: Free Term Life Insurance Quotes                 LGJDG
Message-ID: <00006f2918d1$00006aa8$00005d56@mx06.hotmail.com>

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From insiderreports at amuro.net  Tue Jul 23 05:45:40 2002
From: insiderreports at amuro.net (Opportunity Forum)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:45:40 +0900
Subject: Make $1,400 - $9,000 Per Month From Home - Residual Income!
Message-ID: <025e33c68b1b$1187a2c4$5aa06ed3@spjnkq>

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From OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-339 at mm53.com  Tue Jul 23 15:11:25 2002
From: OnlyTheBest_______r-7552100-339 at mm53.com (Only the Best)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:11:25 UT
Subject: Friend, Great News from PetCareRx.com
Message-ID: <200207232220.RAA17976@einstein.ssz.com>

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From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk  Tue Jul 23 14:18:56 2002
From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (Dave Howe)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:18:56 +0100
Subject: Tunneling through hostile proxy
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207231800070.13165-100000@zayda.com> 
  <20020723202426.A179288@exeter.ac.uk> <3D3DBF7E.8020705@algroup.co.uk>
Message-ID: <008a01c2328e$953ad1c0$01c8a8c0@p800>


Ben Laurie wrote:
|| Errr - its tricky anyway, coz the cert has to match the final
|| destination, and, by definition almost, that can't be the proxy.
provided you can impose a CA cert onto the user browser (not hard in a
corporate environment) it isn't as if signing a certificate "on the fly"
is hard - consider the following
1. proxy has CA private key A and SSL public key B
2. client requests connect to SSL on xxx.yyy.zzz.com
3. proxy uses OpenSSL library to create certificate for xxx.yyy.zzz.com
on the fly (with Public key B) signed by CA key A
4. proxy opens SSL link to xxx.yyy.zzz.com
5. if step 4 succeeds, proxy sends cert to client
5. client checks cert against its own local copy of public key A (from
its root cert dir) which claims to be "thawte, inc"
6. client approves link and negotiates SSL with proxy
7. proxy links its connection to xxx.yyy.zzz.com to inbound client
connection
8. proxy passes (and logs) packets




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From: unsubs-ab749eca98-cypherpunks=einstein.ssz.com at b.verticalresponse.com (Special Deals)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:32:44 +0000
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From insiderreports at amuro.net  Tue Jul 23 09:08:14 2002
From: insiderreports at amuro.net (Opportunity Forum)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:08:14 +0800
Subject: Make $1,400 - $9,000 Per Month From Home - Residual Income!
Message-ID: <005c05b53e3e$3378b8a0$3da65dd8@iwbanf>

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From john at kozubik.com  Wed Jul 24 00:22:14 2002
From: john at kozubik.com (John Kozubik)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:22:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tunneling through a hostile proxy?
In-Reply-To: <3D3D0D4A.961.177A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0207240017460.99934-100000@www>


> separately, with the proxy able to observe cleartext.  Could an SSH 
> connection be made under these conditions?

SSH java applets exist:

http://www.appgate.com/ag.asp?template=products&level1=product_mindterm

http://javassh.org/

Therefore, you could simply publish the java ssh client of your choice on
an off-site web server of your choice, then hit that web server from
behind your proxy using HTTPS (on the standard port 443) using IE or
Netscape, etc., and accomplish your goal.  No tunneling needed - just
plain old https traffic.  The ssh traffic flows only between the off-site
web server publishing the applet and the host you direct it to ssh into.

-----
John Kozubik - john at kozubik.com - http://www.kozubik.com




From Central_Bank6 at centralbank.com  Wed Jul 24 02:42:22 2002
From: Central_Bank6 at centralbank.com (Central_Bank6 at centralbank.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 02:42:22
Subject: Notification for Payment Received!
Message-ID: <200207240713.CAA16876@einstein.ssz.com>

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From karriecat at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 24 12:14:39 2002
From: karriecat at hotmail.com (Arin)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 03:14:39 -1600
Subject: Make your LIFE * Better with More Money from your Home Business              5052
Message-ID: <000036952975$000009f6$00005249@.>

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From unsub-177-2380044 at list2.bravenet.com  Wed Jul 24 03:46:38 2002
From: unsub-177-2380044 at list2.bravenet.com (Bravenet News)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 03:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harvard Business Review report on risk
Message-ID: <20020724104638.374C7736EC@list.bravenet.com>

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(c)2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Microsoft and Great 
Plains (and any other trademarks used should be listed here) are either 
registered trademarks or trademarks of Microsoft Corporation or Great 
Plains in the United States and/or other countries. Great Plains Software 
Inc is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation. The names of 
actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of 
their respective owners (if any third party names used).





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From dackel at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 24 14:24:05 2002
From: dackel at hotmail.com (dackel at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 05:24:05 -1600
Subject: Lose 28 Pounds In 10 Days                     30201
Message-ID: <00003dc678b8$00001100$0000354c@C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Send\domains2.txt>


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From emailharvest at email.com  Tue Jul 23 15:34:53 2002
From: emailharvest at email.com (emailharvest at email.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:34:53 +0800
Subject: Harvest lots of E-mail addresses quickly !
Message-ID: <200207232235.g6NMZ6J52307@locust.minder.net>

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From mark at tweakt.net  Wed Jul 24 06:05:23 2002
From: mark at tweakt.net (Mark Renouf)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:05:23 -0400
Subject: Defcon key-signing party
Message-ID: <3D3EA613.6030804@tweakt.net>


Anyone interested in a pgp/gpg key-signing get-together @ DC,
please email me your key info (name, key ID, type, size,
fingerprint), and I will add you to the list.

If you don't have a PGP key, now is a great time to make one.

Want to find out more about PGP?
<http://www.uk.pgp.net/pgpnet/pgp-faq/>

You can get the software from:

PGPfreeware <http://www.pgpi.org/products/pgp/versions/freeware/>
GnuPG (GPG) <http://www.pgpi.org/download/gnupg/>


Bring the following:

   *  Photo ID (your name must be in your key identity)
   *  A printed copy of your key ID, key type, fingerprint, and key size

I will pass out a master list (from what people send me now). Then
individually we will cross-validate eachothers identities and keys.

It works like this: person A tells B the details of their key (from
their personal copy of the key info). Person B confirms that the key
information on the master list matches. Next person A produces photo ID
for person B. If it proves that person A is the owner of the key, then
person B can check off that person on their list.

The reverse is then done for person B.

After a while you will end up with a list full of (hopefully) checked
names. Later on, you can retrieve a copy of the key either from a
keyserver or directly from the owner, verify it's valid (it matches the
checked off name on your copy of the master list), and sign it using
your private key.

Then you can upload your signature of the key to a key server and send a
copy back to the key's owner to add to thier keyring.

ID:    Mark Renouf <mark at tweakt.net>
Size:  2048
Type:  DH/DSS
KeyID: 0xF888F464
Fingerprint: 9CE7 98DD E14E 8B9C 7109  2798 C18D 83A9 F888 F464




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 24 07:09:01 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:09:01 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Military alters its airwaves for consumers - July 24, 2002
Message-ID: <3D3EB4FD.A0B69091@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/industry/07/24/allocating.airwaves.ap/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk  Wed Jul 24 01:31:22 2002
From: DaveHowe at gmx.co.uk (David Howe)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:31:22 +0100
Subject: Tunneling through a hostile proxy?
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0207240017460.99934-100000@www>
Message-ID: <004601c232ec$94fa56a0$c71121c2@sharpuk.co.uk>


John Kozubik <john at kozubik.com> was seen to declaim:
> SSH java applets exist:
>
http://www.appgate.com/ag.asp?template=products&level1=product_mindterm
> http://javassh.org/
And indeed are very useful - but I think you miss the whole point of a
java applet. the applet downloads to (and runs on) the local pc,
therefore the SSH connection will be outbound from the local pc - and no
better than just running up a copy of puTTY, but with half the features.




From atomicDOT at lists.2np.net  Wed Jul 24 10:38:13 2002
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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:38:13 PST
Subject: CAll NOW, Directv is yours 866-655-0642
Message-ID: <24070200007$102192086381143$1156963332$0@frodo8.2np.net>

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From mlm3leads4u at amuro.net  Tue Jul 23 16:05:59 2002
From: mlm3leads4u at amuro.net (MLM Insider Forum)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:05:59 +1200
Subject: Cost-Effective MLM/Bizop Phone-Screened Leads
Message-ID: <037e37e61d3b$4867d8b1$0dd57ed0@yicvcn>

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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Jul 24 10:06:21 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:06:21 -0400
Subject: Are you ready for your loyalty check?
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD51@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,72921,00.
html

Bush security plan calls for background checks

By DAN VERTON 
JULY 22, 2002

WASHINGTON -- Once a cabinet-level
Department of Homeland Security is established,
the Bush administration plans to convene a panel
of government and private-sector experts to
determine the legal guidelines for subjecting tens
of thousands of private-sector employees to
background investigations. 

[...]

That means tens of thousands of private-sector
employees working in industries such as
banking, chemicals, energy, transportation, 
telecommunications, shipping and public health 
would be subject to background checks as a 
condition of employment. 

Tom Ridge, the current director of the Office of 
Homeland Security and the leading contender
to become Bush's nominee for the cabinet post, 
said on July 21 that the nation remains at risk 
from an unknown number of terrorist cells operating 
within the U.S. And according to the national strategy, 
that situation could be further complicated by malicious 
insiders with authorized access to critical facilities. 

"Personnel with privileged access to critical 
infrastructure, particularly [IT-based] control systems, 
may serve as terrorist surrogates by providing information 
on vulnerabilities, operating characteristics and protective
measures," the Bush strategy states. 

[...]

----------------------------------

Protecting Critical Infrastructure and Key Assets
http://www.whitehouse.gov/homeland/book/sect3-3.pdf

Peter Trei

"If the people have betrayed the government,
perhaps the government should abolish the 
people and elect a new one.- Bertolt Brecht"




From ankara at dunyagazetesi.com.tr  Wed Jul 24 14:09:44 2002
From: ankara at dunyagazetesi.com.tr (ankara at dunyagazetesi.com.tr)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:09:44
Subject: Kime Oy Vereceksiniz ?
Message-ID: <200207241115.g6OBF1S27440@ankara.ada.net.tr>


�yi g�nler

 
D�NYA Gazetesi, i�inde bulundu�umuz siyasi karma�a d�neminin se�imler sonras�nda nas�l bir hal alaca�� konusunda kapsaml� bir ara�t�rma yapmaktad�r. Bu �er�evede toplumumuzun m�mk�n oldu�unca geni� bir kesiminin g�r��lerine ba�vurmay� gerekli g�rd�k. 

 
3 Kas�m 2002 tarihinde yap�lmas� �ng�r�len se�imler sonras�nda siyasi belirsizli�in, dolay�s�yla da ekonomik belirsizli�in sona erip ermeyece�i y�n�nde bir tahmin yapmam�z ve bu konuda kamuoyunu bilgilendirmemiz gerekti�ini d���n�yoruz. Sizin de g�r��lerinizi bize iletmeniz anketin sa�l�kl� olmas� �er�evesinde �nem ta��maktad�r. 

 
D�NYA Gazetesi, anketi cevaplayanlar�n kimlikleri konusunda herhangi bir a��klaman�n yap�lmayaca��, sadece cevaplar�n�n dikkate al�naca�� y�n�nde tam garanti verir. �lginiz i�in te�ekk�r eder, �al��malar�n�zda ba�ar�lar dileriz.

 
Anketin , daha geni� kapsaml� olmasi ve b�y�k kitlelere ula�abilmesi i�in ,

Tan�d�klar�n�za bu mail�i g�nderebilirsiniz .

 

Soru 1

 

Se�imde hangi partiye oy vermeyi d���n�yorsunuz?

 

 

 

Soru 2

Sizce se�imlerde en �ok oyu hangi partiler alacak, bir s�ralama yapabilir misiniz?

 

 

 

Soru 3

Se�imlerin sonucunu etkileyebilecek temel geli�meler ne olabilir?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
D�NYA GAZETES� ANKARA TEMS�LC�L���

Tel: 312 446 99 24

Fax: 446 91 54

ankara at dunyagazetesi.com.tr

 

 

 

 

 

 




From mlm1leads4u at amuro.net  Wed Jul 24 00:12:12 2002
From: mlm1leads4u at amuro.net (MLM Insider Forum)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:12:12 +0700
Subject: Cost-Effective MLM/Bizop Phone-Screened Leads
Message-ID: <001d13a37a8d$4572d2b4$5cb45ee4@ctyomy>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Jul 24 14:13:01 2002
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:13:01 -0700
Subject: DoD To Mark PKI Cert 1M
Message-ID: <E17XQfK-00074J-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>


>From the United States Department of Defense
No. 136-P
PRESS ADVISORY  July 24, 2002

The DoD Chief Information Officer John Stenbit will conduct 
a demonstration of the DoD's use of its public key infrastructure 
(PKI) to mark issuance of the millionth PKI certificate set, 
Friday, July 26, at 11:30 a.m. EDT in the DoD Briefing Room, 
Pentagon 2E781.

For more information on DoD use of PKI and common access 
cards, see Defenselink at

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2002/n03082002_220203081.html

Media without a Pentagon building pass must have proof of 
affiliation and two forms of photo identification and should be 
at the River Entrance by 11 a.m. Please call (703) 697-5131 
for an escort into the building.




From kenneth_uba at mail.com  Wed Jul 24 15:08:41 2002
From: kenneth_uba at mail.com (Mr.Kenneth Uba)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:08:41 -0700
Subject: Reply soon
Message-ID: <200207241417.JAA28731@einstein.ssz.com>


>From the Desk of Mr. Kenneth Uba
 
Union Bank of Nigeria,
 
Lagos-Nigeria.
 
 
 
ATTN: THE PRESIDENT/C.E.O
 
STRICTLY A PRIVATE BUSINESS PROPOSAL
 
 
 
Dear Sir,
 
I am Mr. Kenneth Uba, the manager bills and exchange
at the Foreign Remittance Department of the Union Bank of Nigeria Plc. 
 
I am writing this letter to ask for your support and
cooperation to carry out this business opportunity in my department. 
 
We discovered an abandoned sum of $31,000,000.00 (Thirty One million United States Dollars only) in an account that belongs to one of our foreign customers who died along with his entire family of a wife and two children in November 1997 in a Plane crash.
 

 
Since we heard of his death, we have been expecting his next-of-kin to come over and put claims for his money as the heir, because we cannot release the fund from his account unless someone applies for claim as
the next-of-kin to the deceased as indicated in our banking guidelines.
Unfortunately, neither their family member nor distant relative has ever appeared to claim the said fund. 
 
Upon this discovery, I and other officials in my department have agreed to make business with you and release the total amount into your account as the heir of the fund since no one came for it or discovered he maintained account with our bank, otherwise the fund will be returned to the bank's treasury as unclaimed fund.
 
We have agreed that our ratio of sharing will be as stated thus; 
20 % for you as foreign partner, 75 % for us the officials in my department and 5 % for the settlement of all local and foreign expenses incurred by us and you during the course of this business.
 

Upon the successful completion of this transfer, I and one of my colleagues will come to your country and mind our share. It is from our 75 % we intend to import Agricultural machineries into my country as a way of recycling the fund.  

To commence this transaction, we require you to immediately indicate your interest by a return e-mail and enclose your private contact telephone number, fax number full name and address and your designated
bank coordinates to enable us file letter of claim to the appropriate departments for necessary approvals before the transfer can be made.

Note also, this transaction must be kept STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL because of its nature. 
 
I look forward to receiving your prompt response.
 
 
 
Mr. Kenneth Uba
 
Union Bank of Nigeria.
 






From insiderreports at amuro.net  Wed Jul 24 17:39:57 2002
From: insiderreports at amuro.net (Opportunity Forum)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:39:57 -0900
Subject: Make $1,400 - $9,000 Per Month From Home - Residual Income!
Message-ID: <015d85c65e5c$7681c6a1$6dd72be7@dvhlyc>

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From Pharmacy at onebox.com  Wed Jul 24 15:02:09 2002
From: Pharmacy at onebox.com (Stephanie Curry)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:02:09 -0600
Subject: Phentermine,Xenical,Viagra
Message-ID: <200207241948.g6OJmbT17572@mail.mp-i.co.kr>

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From aaamariam2002 at techemail.com  Wed Jul 24 16:06:53 2002
From: aaamariam2002 at techemail.com ( mariam)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:06:53
Subject: your help
Message-ID: <200207241506.g6OF64Z4015373@ak47.algebra.com>


DEAR SIR,

I am MRS MARIAM ABACHA, wife of the late Nigerian
Head of State, General Sani Abacha who died on 
the 8th
of June 1998 while still on active duty. I am
contacting you in view of the fact that we will 
be of
great assistance to each other likewise 
developing a
cordial relationship.

I currently have within my reach the sum of 
thirty
six million United States Dollars 
(US$36,000,000) in
cash, which I intend to use for investment 
purposes
specifically in your country. This money came 
as a
result of a payback contract deal between my 
late
husband and a Russian firm on our country's
Multi-Billion Dollars Ajaokuta Steel Plant. The
Russian partners returned my husbands share of
US$36,000,000 after his death and lodge it with 
my
late husband's security company in Nigeria of 
which I
am a director. Right now the new civilian 
government
have intensified their probe on my husband's 
financial
resources and they have revoked our licenses 
that
allows us to own a financial and oil company. 
In view
of this, I acted very fast to withdraw the
US$36,000,000 from the company's vault and 
deposited
it in a privately erected security safe abroad.

No record ever existed concerning the money 
neither is
the money traceable by the Government because 
there is
no documentation showing that we received the 
money
from the Russians.

Due to the current situation in the country 
concerning
Government attitude towards my family, it has 
become
quite impossible for me to make use of this 
money
within, thus I seek assistance to transfer this 
money
into your safe bank account. On your consent, I 
shall expect
you to contact me urgently to enable us discuss
details of this transaction.

Bearing in mind that your assistance is needed 
to
transfer the funds, I propose a commission of 
20% of
the total sum to you for the expected services 
and
assistance. Your urgent response is highly 
needed so
as to stop further contacts. all correspondent 
should be forwarded to this EMAIL:zenab.m at ompadec.zzn.con
or you can call my son mobile:hamza   234-8023137978 I  use this 
opportunity to implore you to exercise the most 
utmost
indulgence to keep this matter extra ordinarily
confidential what ever your decision while I 
await your
prompt response.

Best personal regards,

MRS MARIAM ABACHA.




From aaamariam2002 at techemail.com  Wed Jul 24 16:23:20 2002
From: aaamariam2002 at techemail.com ( mariam)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:23:20
Subject: your help
Message-ID: <200207241531.KAA29528@einstein.ssz.com>


DEAR SIR,

I am MRS MARIAM ABACHA, wife of the late Nigerian
Head of State, General Sani Abacha who died on 
the 8th
of June 1998 while still on active duty. I am
contacting you in view of the fact that we will 
be of
great assistance to each other likewise 
developing a
cordial relationship.

I currently have within my reach the sum of 
thirty
six million United States Dollars 
(US$36,000,000) in
cash, which I intend to use for investment 
purposes
specifically in your country. This money came 
as a
result of a payback contract deal between my 
late
husband and a Russian firm on our country's
Multi-Billion Dollars Ajaokuta Steel Plant. The
Russian partners returned my husbands share of
US$36,000,000 after his death and lodge it with 
my
late husband's security company in Nigeria of 
which I
am a director. Right now the new civilian 
government
have intensified their probe on my husband's 
financial
resources and they have revoked our licenses 
that
allows us to own a financial and oil company. 
In view
of this, I acted very fast to withdraw the
US$36,000,000 from the company's vault and 
deposited
it in a privately erected security safe abroad.

No record ever existed concerning the money 
neither is
the money traceable by the Government because 
there is
no documentation showing that we received the 
money
from the Russians.

Due to the current situation in the country 
concerning
Government attitude towards my family, it has 
become
quite impossible for me to make use of this 
money
within, thus I seek assistance to transfer this 
money
into your safe bank account. On your consent, I 
shall expect
you to contact me urgently to enable us discuss
details of this transaction.

Bearing in mind that your assistance is needed 
to
transfer the funds, I propose a commission of 
20% of
the total sum to you for the expected services 
and
assistance. Your urgent response is highly 
needed so
as to stop further contacts. all correspondent 
should be forwarded to this EMAIL:zenab.m at ompadec.zzn.con
or you can call my son mobile:hamza   234-8023137978 I  use this 
opportunity to implore you to exercise the most 
utmost
indulgence to keep this matter extra ordinarily
confidential what ever your decision while I 
await your
prompt response.

Best personal regards,

MRS MARIAM ABACHA.




From mlm1leads4u at amuro.net  Wed Jul 24 04:02:24 2002
From: mlm1leads4u at amuro.net (MLM Insider Forum)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:02:24 +0700
Subject: Cost-Effective MLM/Bizop Phone-Screened Leads
Message-ID: <035e87a74d8d$5461a7a4$2eb12bc8@wmnfpn>

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From al at qaeda.org  Wed Jul 24 18:27:44 2002
From: al at qaeda.org (Optimizzin Al-gorithym)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:27:44 -0700
Subject: warchalking on the Beeb
Message-ID: <3D3F5410.D9A62B6A@qaeda.org>


Well, its official.  Warchalking (802.11x domain marking) appeared on
the US edition of the BBC News.  No hype re: anonymity & t*rr*r*sm &
tigers
& bears; a mention though of service-contract violations, and the gift
community concept.
Thank you Mr. Beeb.

(And all your privacy-invading TV IF locating white vans)




From mynetdetectives at offer888.net  Wed Jul 24 12:23:43 2002
From: mynetdetectives at offer888.net (Online Investigation)
Date: 24 Jul 2002 19:23:43 -0000
Subject: Cypherpunks, be your own private eye
Message-ID: <200207242324.g6ONOQsj013833@ak47.algebra.com>

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From rwright at dimacs.rutgers.edu  Wed Jul 24 20:13:20 2002
From: rwright at dimacs.rutgers.edu (Rebecca Wright)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:13:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [fc] Financial Cryptography 2003 CFP
Message-ID: <mailman.629.1575948388.62801.testlist@lists.cpunks.org>


Call for Papers
Financial Cryptography '03

January 27-30, 2003
La Creole Beach Hotel, Gosier, Guadeloupe

Sponsored by the International Financial Cryptography Association

Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data
security and digital commerce for submission to the Seventh Annual
Conference on Financial Cryptography (FC '03). FC '03 brings together
researchers in the financial, legal, cryptologic, and data security
fields to foster cooperation and exchange of ideas. Relevant topics
include:

  Anonymity                                 Infrastructure Design
  Auctions				    Legal and Regulatory Issues
  Audit and Auditability		    Payments and Micropayments
  Authentication and Identification	    Peer-to-Peer Systems
  Certification and Authorization	    Privacy
  Commercial Transactions and Contracts	    Reputation Systems
  Digital Incentive Systems		    Risks Management
  Digital Rights Management		    Secure Banking
  Identity Management			    Smart Cards
  Implementation Issues			    Trust Management
  Information Economics			    Watermarking

We are particularly interested in novel approaches, such as
game-theoretic or economic approaches, to these topics.
Instructions for Authors: Complete papers (or complete extended
abstracts) must be at most fifteen (15) single-spaced standard pages
in length and must be received by 23h59 EST on September 13, 2002. All
papers must be submitted electronically. (In exceptional
circumstances, paper submissions can be accepted, but special
arrangements must be made with the program chairs prior to September
1, 2002.) Papers must be in either standard PostScript or PDF format,
and should be submitted electronically according to the instructions
at http://ifca.ai/fc03/ prior to the deadline. Submissions in formats
other than PostScript or PDF, including word processor source formats
such as MS Word or LaTeX, will be rejected.

Submitted papers should include on the first page the title, all
authors and their affiliations, a brief abstract, and a list of
topical keywords. Papers must describe original work. Submission of
previously published material and simultaneous submission of papers to
other conferences or workshops with proceedings is not
permitted. Authors of papers found to be double submissions risk
having all their submissions withdrawn from consideration, as well as
any other appropriate sanctions.

Proposals for panels are also solicited, and should include a brief
description of the panel as well as prospective participants. Panel
proposals should also be submitted electronically, in plain ASCII
format.

The conference proceedings containing all accepted papers will be
published in the Springer-Verlag Lecture Notes in Computer Science
(LNCS) series after the conference. A pre-proceedings containing
preliminary versions of the papers will be distributed at the
conference.

Important Dates:

  Conference                   January 27 - 30, 2003
  Submission deadline          September 13, 2002, 23h59 EST
  Author notification          November 11, 2002
  Pre-proceedings version due  December 16, 2002
  Proceedings version due      March 31, 2003

General Chair: David Pointcheval (Ecole Normale Superieure)

Program Chairs: Jean Camp (Harvard University) and Rebecca Wright
                (Stevens Institute of Technology)

Program Committee:

Chris Avery (Harvard Universiy)     Helger Lipmaa (Helsinki University of
Technology)
Dan Burk (University of Minnesota)  Dahlia Malkhi (Hebrew University of
Jerusalem)
Lorrie Cranor (AT&T Labs)	    Satoshi Obana (NEC)
Carl Ellison (Intel Labs) 	    Andrew Odlyzko (University of Minnesota)
Ian Goldberg (Zero Knowledge)	    Benny Pinkas (DIMACS)
John Ioannides (AT&T Labs) 	    Jacques Stern (Ecole Normale Superieure)
Markus Jakobsson (RSA Laboratories) Gene Tsudik (U. C. Irvine)
Ari Juels (RSA Laboratories)









_______________________________________________
fc mailing list
fc at ifca.ai
http://mail.ifca.ai/mailman/listinfo/fc

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From shkinforequested_935 at juno.com  Wed Jul 24 23:47:10 2002
From: shkinforequested_935 at juno.com (qtscDario Bartok)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:47:10 -0700
Subject: Hot News unnch
Message-ID: <200207250647.g6P6l5ro026225@ak47.algebra.com>


GAMING ADVISOR  

NEWS July 16, 2002   i2corp Enters into Research and Development Agreement with Nevada Gaming Equipment Supplier For Live Remote Bingo.      
 
The general feeling of the Top Internet Lawyers and Analysts is that "online gambling and sports betting is here to stay.” Attempts at trying to stop it would be largely ineffective! Banning Internet gambling and sports betting presents technical and legal problems that Governments are ill equipped to enforce. 

What’s more, there are NO competitors for the Company’s method or technology for remote wagering. i2corp is the Only Company in the World that can legally license its method and technology for remote wagering. i2corp is currently negotiating with
Major Casinos Globally.    
 
Michael Pollock of the Pollock Gaming Resource Group (PRRG) has issued a report studying the effects of live wagering from remote locations. “ The study concludes that live wagering from remote locations does more than create a new source of revenue for sponsoring casinos. Additionally, it creates a marketing opportunity, a means to find and cultivate thousands of new customers who can be encouraged to become on-site patrons.” A copy of the full report in pdf format can be downloaded at http://www.gamingobserver.com/.
 
i2corp is the holding company for Home Gambling Network, Inc. HGN holds U.S. Patent 5,800,268, which covers remote wagering on live games and events with electronic financial transactions. The Patent is comprised of three primary actions: the gambling is live; the player is remote and physically away from the actual game or event; and the winnings and losses are transacted electronically in real time. They include, but are not limited to, horse racing, soccer, bingo, poker, roulette and many other Las Vegas Casino Games. 

FACT: Currently there is an overwhelming opinion that remote wagering in real-time will become one of the most profitable/prolific industries worldwide. i2corp recently won judgment against giant UUNET a subsidiary of MCI/WorldCom in a U.S. Federal Court for Patent infringement. Just another compelling reason why i2corp has orphaned their competition! Therefore we conclude i2corp’s common stock to be overlooked and undervalued! For Current Quote click here!

RECOMMENDATION: STRONG BUY

     i2corp   
OTCBB Symbol                  (ITOO)
Recent Price     	          .05 - .08
52-Week Hi-Lo 	          .05 - .48
Short Term Target Price:     .60

This news release contains forward-looking statements as defined by the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Forward-looking statements include statements concerning plans, objectives, goals, strategies, future events or performance and underlying assumptions, and all statements that are other than statements of historical facts. These statements are subject to uncertainties and risks including, but not limited to, product and service demand and acceptance, changes in technology, economic conditions, the impact of competition and pricing, government regulation, and other risks defined in this document. These cautionary statements expressly qualify all such forward-looking statements made by or on behalf of Gaming Advisor. In addition, Gaming Advisor disclaims any obligation to update any forward-looking statements to reflect events or circumstances after the date hereof. The information herein has been obtained from reputable sources and therefore we assume its !
validity. Gaming Advisor has been c
ompensated $5,000 for the dissemination of this information and may at anytime buy or sell the securities of i2corp’s common stock.

nwgjuxbtwayuvph




From mlm1leads4u at amuro.net  Wed Jul 24 20:08:35 2002
From: mlm1leads4u at amuro.net (MLM Insider Forum)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:08:35 -0300
Subject: Cost-Effective MLM/Bizop Phone-Screened Leads
Message-ID: <027d26d34e6e$1647d6d1$7ba22eb5@falhhf>

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From Free-2657w02 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 24 19:38:17 2002
From: Free-2657w02 at yahoo.com (Free)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:38:17 -0200
Subject: FREE e-Book Publishing Software - Download NOW!
Message-ID: <004c35c08a6b$7135c1b2$3be57ea6@lmvahc>

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From mlm2leads4u at amuro.net  Wed Jul 24 23:49:29 2002
From: mlm2leads4u at amuro.net (MLM Insider Forum)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:49:29 -0400
Subject: Cost-Effective MLM/Bizop Phone-Screened Leads
Message-ID: <008a51e33a3d$6362c7c6$5ad12cc4@ytigre>

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From czanik at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 25 18:14:01 2002
From: czanik at hotmail.com (czanik at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:14:01 -1600
Subject: Make your prints beautiful & SAVE BIG!            14144
Message-ID: <000071305ed3$0000528d$0000335d@folkradio.org>

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From porn at napster.com  Thu Jul 25 11:22:54 2002
From: porn at napster.com (porn at napster.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:22:54
Subject: Horny?..Stop Paying for Porn - 12 Free Passes
Message-ID: <530.778013.807533@unknown>

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From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Jul 25 11:29:39 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:29:39 -0400
Subject: [fc] Financial Cryptography 2003 CFP
Message-ID: <p05111a7bb965f370f44f@[66.149.49.6]>


--- begin forwarded text



From danet at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 25 17:31:23 2002
From: danet at earthlink.net (danet at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:31:23 -1000
Subject: The Government Grants You $25,000!
Message-ID: <033a31a71c0d$3154b3e7$3db87cd5@gpywxf>

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From totia at acmemail.net  Thu Jul 25 12:54:28 2002
From: totia at acmemail.net (totia at acmemail.net)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:54:28 -0500
Subject: Checking Account update
Message-ID: <15b2qfiq0pc.7svb4c8r6f@yahoo.com>

Special situation trading Advisory

Dear Valued subscribers,

We sometimes approach our analysts for their thoughts on emerging market sectors we're interested in. On certain occasions, they come to us with intriguing insights of certain aspects of the market that have caught their attention.

As you know our track record speaks for itself we are happy to bring you another situation with HUGE upside potential we think this could be the one that when we look back shortly everyone will be saying I should have more.


For more info http://terra.es/personal9/invdaily1/

Remember: Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Jul 25 07:29:41 2002
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:29:41 +0100
Subject: warchalking on the Beeb
References: <3D3F5410.D9A62B6A@qaeda.org>
Message-ID: <3D400B55.CE058F54@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


5 minutes of it on the breakfast-time Today show on BBC radio 4 a couple
of days ago. Positive almost to the point of ingenuousness - they
suggested that LSE was offering wireless as a "public good" which wasn't
quite how LSE described it at a ukerna seminar 6 months ago.

online version at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2144279.stm

Ken

Optimizzin Al-gorithym wrote:
> 
> Well, its official.  Warchalking (802.11x domain marking) appeared on
> the US edition of the BBC News.  No hype re: anonymity & t*rr*r*sm &
> tigers
> & bears; a mention though of service-contract violations, and the gift
> community concept.
> Thank you Mr. Beeb.
> 
> (And all your privacy-invading TV IF locating white vans)




From coury at pacbell.net  Thu Jul 25 04:35:53 2002
From: coury at pacbell.net (coury at pacbell.net)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:35:53 +0500
Subject: The Government Grants You $25,000!
Message-ID: <007c01d60c5a$7888e5a4$0cb72ee1@ufutxn>

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From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Thu Jul 25 20:57:05 2002
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:57:05 -0500
Subject: Domain Usurption WRH >> ideal cleaning
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20020725225705.00afb640@127.0.0.1>



WhatReallyHappened.com USURPTION resolves to:

64.156.139.237 via 64.200.142.162 aka iicinternet.com

NOTE, this is FBI/usDoJ blockspace.

jobs at idealcleaningsvc.com or you can fax your resume to 516-352-0333.

Ideal Cleaning, nyc, ny, usa






From stoneage at ameritech.net  Thu Jul 25 21:23:17 2002
From: stoneage at ameritech.net (KD)
Date: 26 Jul 02 00:23:17 -0400
Subject: Forged iron railing
Message-ID: <20020726044352.LYQI25249.mailhost.det2.ameritech.net@ameritech.net>

Product Updates:  For our new forged iron railing, please sign in early for the dealership program.

 You can also check our web site at
                   http://www.irondecor.com

 If this email reach you by mistake, please type "Remove" and send 
back to stoneage at ameritech.net  with your email address.
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From marketstrtgylnks at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 26 00:50:01 2002
From: marketstrtgylnks at yahoo.com (marketstrtgylnks at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:50:01 -0600
Subject: OTCBB: SCAL   Fastest Growing ASP     ADV
Message-ID: <69E29.6685KQ5N5M3X09AK.marketstrtgylnks@yahoo.com>

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From monkeywrench1 at compaqnet.fr  Fri Jul 26 01:09:50 2002
From: monkeywrench1 at compaqnet.fr (monkeywrench1 at compaqnet.fr)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 03:09:50 -0500
Subject: Copy DVD's to regular CD-R discs and watch on your DVD Player.e6q1b3t0
Message-ID: <200207260809.DAA01789@madison.specialhost.propagation.net>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (monkeywrench1 at compaqnet.fr) on Friday, July 26, 2002 at 03:09:50
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

: Why Spend upwards of $4000 on a DVD Burner when we will show you an alternative that will do the exact same thing for just a fraction of the cost? Copy your DVD's NOW. Best Price on the net. Click here: http://001 at www.dvdcopyxp.com/cgi-bin/enter.cgi?marketing_id=dcx002 Click to remove http://004www.spambites.com/cgi-bin/enter.cgi?spambytes_id=100115 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From brian at 1-800-inkwell.com  Fri Jul 26 00:42:53 2002
From: brian at 1-800-inkwell.com (Adan Orr)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 03:42:53 -0360
Subject: Add to radar on Thursday Sep 7
Message-ID: <960742387.20020726034253@1-800-inkwell.com>

EXCLUSlVE Penny Stocks Alert Advisory Service G0 PPTL!
				
THE NEWS RELEASED THlS Monday! S0MEB0DY KN0WS S0METHlNG!!! 

Get on PPTL First Thing on Thursday, it's going to expload to above $0.05!
			
WATCH lT EXPL0DE 0N Thursday!!!

WATCH PPTL LlKE A HAWK 0N Thursday September 7, 2006



Company: Premium Petroleum Corp
Ticker: PPTL
Current Price:  $0.0135
Thursday's Target Price:  $0.05
Best Case Scenario: $0.075
Recommendation: STR0NG BUY
Price Increase Expec: Max
Investment Risk: Low 

			
			Here comes the REAL BlG 0NE! PPTL!!! Get on PPTL First Thing on Thursday!!!

BREAKlNG NEWS:

Premium Petroleum, Inc.: Acquires Additional Zone on Boyne Lake Prospect Monday June 5, 9:45 am ET

CALGARY, ALBERTA--(MARKET WlRE)--Jun 5, 2006 -- Premium Petroleum, Inc. (0ther 0TC:PPTL.PK - News) is pleased to announce that it has acquired production rights to an additional zone on the Boyne Lake prospect in Alberta Canada. Based on data collected throughout the drilling stage it was decided to purchase the rights for this zone.

Due to wet weather conditions, the company has not been able to mobilize equipment onto the property to complete the well 
testing. The company anticipates the two zones will be tested within the next 30 days.As previously mentioned, the well is 
still on tight hole status, and therefore information regarding the testing results will not be released until a future date.
The company anticipates that in the coming months it will be successful in acquiring prospective crown oil and gas lease(s) 
with significant upside potential.

The company also continues to review potential joint venture opportunities with third parties.Bruce A. Thomson, B.A. Sc. ; 
President & CE0 states "we are pleased that the potential of this project has expanded".
 

Y0U KN0W THERE WlLL BE M0RE NEWS 0N Thursday! All signs show that PPTL is going to Explode to $0.05! lt did $0.05 in the past check historical data on PPTL and watch it GR0W T0 AB0VE $0.05!!!
					
				ADD THlS GEM T0 Y0UR RADAR AND WATCH lT TRADE 0N Thursday, SEPTMBER 7, 2006!!!
	
				D0N'T EVEN BLlNK! PPTL D0ESN'T SLEEP IT WILL EXPL0DE 0N Thursday, SEPTMBER 7,2006!!!
		
							TRADE SMART AND WlN WlTH PPTL!!!




From te7duqq3s9684 at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 26 19:24:25 2002
From: te7duqq3s9684 at hotmail.com (Bailey)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:24:25 -1900
Subject: Toners and inkjet cartridges for less....           I
Message-ID: <0000103b13ff$00000050$00003778@mx06.hotmail.com>

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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Jul 26 08:56:31 2002
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:56:31 +0100
Subject: What happened to cypherpunks?
References: <200207240353.g6O3rNW04172@artifact.psychedelic.net>
  <3D4008CE.F271F3D6@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3D41712F.910CA4BB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


This is just a test message to see if it gets back to me.

No traffic on lne or ssz though here for 24 hours.
Which after a few 100 in previous 2 days seems odd.




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Fri Jul 26 21:01:58 2002
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:01:58 -0700
Subject: CPs just talk about AP...
Message-ID: <200207270401.g6R41wh13489@mailserver4.hushmail.com>


Gambling Ghouls
Guess When a Nuclear Weapon Is Detonated and Win Fabulous Prizes!
  
Death pools  a ghoulish twist on college basketball tournament pools  are nothing new to the Internet. Participants typically throw a few dollars into a pot and guess when various newsmakers will die for cash prizes and bragging rights. 

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles225.html

Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople




From hgh8345 at polbox.com  Fri Jul 26 06:28:34 2002
From: hgh8345 at polbox.com (Ronald Adu)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:28:34 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks,HGH: Treatments to reverse aging, enhance
Message-ID: <200207261338.g6QDcJJ46370@locust.minder.net>

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From hgh8891 at polbox.com  Fri Jul 26 06:57:08 2002
From: hgh8891 at polbox.com (Lisa Chinn-Gambale)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:57:08 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks,Your HGH Request!
Message-ID: <200207261448.JAA16442@einstein.ssz.com>

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From free_hgh567 at aol.com  Fri Jul 26 07:00:55 2002
From: free_hgh567 at aol.com (Linette Long)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:00:55 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks,Re: 8.8% loss of body fat with HGH
Message-ID: <200207261351.g6QDptJ47031@locust.minder.net>

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From hgh9628 at scicmail.com  Fri Jul 26 07:03:41 2002
From: hgh9628 at scicmail.com (Jim Carlin)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:03:41 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks,Re: 8.8% loss of body fat with HGH
Message-ID: <200207261426.JAA15923@einstein.ssz.com>

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From hgh7672 at aol.com  Fri Jul 26 07:05:18 2002
From: hgh7672 at aol.com (Roland Conner)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:05:18 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks,Reverse Aging 10 to 20 Years With HGH
Message-ID: <200207261352.g6QDqcG12258@mail.ksohin21.com>

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From hgh6275 at aol.com  Fri Jul 26 07:06:03 2002
From: hgh6275 at aol.com (Brewster Evans)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:06:03 +0800
Subject: cypherpunks,Forever Young HGH!
Message-ID: <200207261449.JAA16447@einstein.ssz.com>

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From Security8dfj4jfc at netscape.net  Fri Jul 26 23:03:09 2002
From: Security8dfj4jfc at netscape.net (Security)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:03:09 -0700
Subject: Protect your PC 24/7 worldwide
Message-ID: <200207270413.g6R4DBKM021228@ak47.algebra.com>

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From matchnews at foryou.match.com  Fri Jul 26 22:49:49 2002
From: matchnews at foryou.match.com (Matchnews@match.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 00:49:49 -0500
Subject: New ways to find friends and meet your match
Message-ID: <20020727054334.E5A9C5A04549@dal53004.match.com>

When your best lines leave you lonely, try something new! Put the moves on the sexy singles 
you'll find with our newest personality search!

 http://www.match.com/psearch/psearch.asp?bannerid=512555


Member Spotlight
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 http://www.match.com/spotlight/showprofile.asp?UserID=4847464B454C4E&Bannerid=512583

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Increase your crushes: Go global
 http://www.match.com/Matchscene/article.asp?bannerid=512558&ArticleID=405


  

Get carried away with MatchTravel
http://www.matchtravel.com


You have received this email because you selected to receive Match.com updates and information 
when you registered. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.match.com/myinfo/emailoptions.asp log in,
and un-check "Newsletter."
 
Copyright 1993-2002 Match.com, Inc. Match.com and the radiant heart are registered trademarks 
of Match.com, Inc.   


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From xu6vidb7g1685 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 27 17:40:10 2002
From: xu6vidb7g1685 at hotmail.com (Michelle)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 05:40:10 -1900
Subject: Best Life Insurance, Lowest Cost...                     UIMVFK
Message-ID: <0000776373f5$00006546$000035d0@mx06.hotmail.com>

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From mv at cdc.gov  Sat Jul 27 05:59:24 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 05:59:24 -0700
Subject: misogyny is infectious: SOF wife wetwork
Message-ID: <3D42992C.9741417F@cdc.gov>


(AP) - Four Army wives at Fort Bragg have been killed over the past six
weeks,
allegedly by their husbands, prompting the Army to announce Friday it
will
re-evaluate the base's family counseling program. Two Fort Bragg
soldiers killed their
wives in murder-suicides, and two others were charged with murdering
their wives.
Three of the soldiers were from the Army's Special Operations and had
just returned
from Afghanistan; the fourth was from an airborne unit and had not been
sent into
action.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020727/ap_on_re_us/military_slayings_3




From grammy at one-voice.com  Sat Jul 27 07:27:20 2002
From: grammy at one-voice.com (Latin Grammy Nomination)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:27:20 -0400
Subject: FW: Check out this awesome CD
Message-ID: <200207271426.g6REQNqJ019043@ak47.algebra.com>


EspañolPRESS RELEASE 
Contacto (Español): Gloria Alvarado
305/234-3536
gloria at one-voice.com
Contact (English): Lynn McCain
McCain & Company
615/262-1727
lynn at mccainpr.com 
 

ILEANA GARCES MAKES HISTORY

First Female Latin Vocalist's Debut to Receive Dove & Latin Grammy Nominations


Los Angeles, CA ­ One Voice Records Latin-pop recording artist Ileana Garces received her first Latin Grammy nomination today when The Latin Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences announced the nominees for the Third Annual Latin Grammy Awards. Today¹s nomination puts Garces in a class by herself as the first female vocalist to be nominated for both a Latin Grammy and a Dove Award for her debut project. The Spanish-language version of Garces¹ album El Amor Tiene Un Valor (Dare to Love), released simultaneously in English and Spanish, received a Latin Grammy nomination in the newly established Best Christian Album category. 
Garces has received amazing attention in both the CCM market and the Hispanic market since her album¹s 2001 release, garnering a performance on the Gospel Music Association¹s 2002 national Dove Awards telecast, as well as coverage in such respected publications as Billboard, CCM Magazine, Christian Retailing and CBA Marketplace. Garces has recently taped an upcoming television special for the La Familia Television Network and a television special for the Univision network¹s prestigious Primer Impacto.
The Latin Grammy Awards were established in 2000 to represent the continued growth and diversity of Latin music. This year, two new categories have been added ­Best Contemporary Tropical Album and Best Christian Album. Among those nominated for Best Christian Album, Garces is the not only the sole performer whose first album has been nominated for both a Latin Grammy and a Dove Award, but she is the only female solo 
artist and the only new artist in the group of nominees, which also includes Padre Marcelo Rossi (Paz- Ao Vivo), Roberto Orellana (Mi Nuevo Amor), Rabito (Viva La Vida) and 33DC (Ven, Es Tiempo de Adorarle). Earlier this year, Garces also received a nomination for Best International Artist in Brazil's Trofeu Talento Awards, up against such heavy hitters as Jaci Velasquez, Michael W. Smith and Hispanic hitmaker Marcos Witt.
"It's such an honor to be the first female artist to represent the Christian community in the Best Christian Album category of the Latin Grammys," says Garces. "I really feel like a winner by just being nominated. I never imagined that my first album would reap such an acknowledgment, which, in turn, I dedicate to my mother."
Ileana's mother, acclaimed Latin songwriter Mayda Garces, penned the lyrics to all of the songs on El Amor Tiene Un Valor (Dare to Love). Mayda Garces was diagnosed with breast cancer last year, and while she was battling for her life, Ileana's accomplishments brought moments of great joy to the family. They are overjoyed today, not only because of this important nomination, but also because Mayda Garces is now completely free from the cancer.
El Amor Tiene Un Valor (Dare to Love) is distributed by Provident Distribution in the U.S. and Latin Door Distribution to the Hispanic market.

Buy the CD

Visit Ileana's website- www.ileanagarces.com

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From sunder at sunder.net  Sat Jul 27 09:06:11 2002
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:06:11 -0400 (edt)
Subject: misogyny is infectious: SOF wife wetwork
In-Reply-To: <3D42992C.9741417F@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.21.0207271204520.11845-100000@anon7.arachelian.com>


Sounds to me like the CIA is at the experiments again...  Didn't they
expose lots of folks to LSD back in the 60's to see if they could make
people kill?

Oh, of course, this would never happen in our day and age.  Why, that was
in the 60's....  I'm sure they said that in the 60's too.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :NSA's gets $20B/year|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :their failures, we  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> (AP) - Four Army wives at Fort Bragg have been killed over the past six
> weeks,
> allegedly by their husbands, prompting the Army to announce Friday it
> will
> re-evaluate the base's family counseling program. Two Fort Bragg
> soldiers killed their
> wives in murder-suicides, and two others were charged with murdering
> their wives.
> Three of the soldiers were from the Army's Special Operations and had
> just returned
> from Afghanistan; the fourth was from an airborne unit and had not been
> sent into
> action.
> 
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020727/ap_on_re_us/military_slayings_3




From luckdayukvythpg at fasterpopmail.com  Sat Jul 27 15:43:17 2002
From: luckdayukvythpg at fasterpopmail.com (luckdayukvythpg at fasterpopmail.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:43:17 -0500
Subject: YOU ARE A WINNER!!
Message-ID: <1027806197.1122@localhost.localdomain>


 cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com

YOU WON A FREE PORN PASSWORD!!


FREE PORN ACCESS ALL THE PORN YOU CAN HANDLE!!

DO ME NOW I WANT YOU TO CUM!!!

  http://www.tnt-hosting.com/wmann




to opt out click reply you will be removed instantly


plcurechaxf^rvafgrva(ffm(pbz








From sexxnjcplgo at mailcab.com  Sat Jul 27 19:34:00 2002
From: sexxnjcplgo at mailcab.com (sexxnjcplgo at mailcab.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 21:34:00 -0500
Subject: DO You Like SEX!
Message-ID: <1027820040.1063@localhost.localdomain>


 

IF THE ANSWER IS YES CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW

 http://www.myfindit.com/pp

FREE PORN ACCESS GET OFF NOW!!

I WILL LET YOU CUM ANYWHERE YOU WANT FOR FREE!!!

  http://www.myfindit.com/pp







plcurechaxf^nytroen(pbz








From frissell at panix.com  Sun Jul 28 06:37:18 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:37:18 -0400
Subject: How to Defeat DVD Zone Controls
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020728093216.032ca050@mail.panix.com>


 From Ditherati:

YOU CAN'T FIRE ME, I SUBMIT

"I care more about this than getting myself fired, but the fact is that 
getting myself fired today would have hurt Hewlett-Packard's Linux program."

Open-source guru Bruce Perens, on his courageous decision to keep drawing a 
paycheck instead of teaching conference- goers how to hack a DVD player, 
Wired News, 26 July 2002

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,54168,00.html

********

Insteard of going to a conference, you could go to your favorite 
Hypermarche in Belgium or France and buy a multi zone DVD player.  Course 
then you can't use your NSTC tv set to connect it to but that's another 
problem.

DCF




From pitster264466 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 28 13:51:15 2002
From: pitster264466 at hotmail.com (pitster264466 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:51:15 -0400
Subject: Personal privacy is just a click away
Message-ID: <200207282208.RAA08159@einstein.ssz.com>

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From mean-green at hushmail.com  Sun Jul 28 22:42:14 2002
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 22:42:14 -0700
Subject: How to Defeat DVD Zone Controls
Message-ID: <200207290542.g6T5gEm76407@mailserver2.hushmail.com>


Most players cannot be hacked.  And many hacks do not operate properly.  How about just rent or borrow DVDs, reprocess to remove the region controls and reburn to a DVD-R?  DVD-Rs are only about $1.25 or less each.  Test burn on a DVD-RW to help prevent expensive coasters. See http://mpucoder.dynodns.net/derrow/copy.html



Communicate in total privacy.
Get your free encrypted email at https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2

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From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sun Jul 28 22:51:05 2002
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 22:51:05 -0700
Subject: Revised View of 2nd Amendment Is Cited as Defense in Gun Cases
Message-ID: <200207290551.g6T5p5k15167@mailserver4.hushmail.com>


Scores of criminal defendants around the nation have asked federal courts to dismiss gun charges against them based on the Justice Department's recently revised position on the scope of the Second Amendment. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/23/national/23GUNS.html?tntemail1

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From centennial at consumerpackage.net  Sun Jul 28 16:38:51 2002
From: centennial at consumerpackage.net (Centennial Card)
Date: 28 Jul 2002 23:38:51 -0000
Subject: Get an unsecured Visa or Mastercard now!
Message-ID: <200207282330.g6SNUrBA020939@ak47.algebra.com>

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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 01:29:28 -0500
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From InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com  Mon Jul 29 03:10:38 2002
From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:10:38 -0400
Subject: Your login information for Insight on the News
Message-ID: <200207291022.FAA05281@einstein.ssz.com>


Your user name for Insight on the News is "cypherpunks" and your password is "cypherpunks", 
without the double quotes.

This message was requested on 07/29/02 at 6:10 AM. 

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-User Support




From mv at cdc.gov  Mon Jul 29 08:42:01 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:42:01 -0700
Subject: crime control before it happens: thought control
Message-ID: <3D456248.568C926F@cdc.gov>


She even conceives of developing algorithms so advanced that society
 might intervene, to get people liable to be recruited into cells back
on track
before they can be seduced by elements like Al Qaeda. "There is a
possibility that with sufficient information about known terrorists we
could
evolve to the point where we could spot terrorists in the making," she
argues. "We believe that individuals can be at risk of becoming drug
addicts, or joining gangs, or having affairs, or any number of things at

certain times and under certain conditions in their lives. . . .
Thorough and
continued algorithmic investigation of terrorist behavior is very likely
to
shed light on their origins, and possibly lead to proactive efforts."

http://villagevoice.com/issues/0230/baard.php




From blancw at cnw.com  Mon Jul 29 10:04:27 2002
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:04:27 -0700
Subject: crime control before it happens: thought control
In-Reply-To: <3D456248.568C926F@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <FLEJLELCPOOCNFGDGKKGAEONCMAA.blancw@cnw.com>


Quoth Major Variola:

>She even conceives of developing algorithms so advanced that society
>might intervene, to get people liable to be recruited into cells back
>on track before they can be seduced by elements like Al Qaeda. "There is a
>possibility that with sufficient information about known terrorists we
>could evolve to the point where we could spot terrorists in the making,"
she
>argues.
..............



Like, while in training by the CIA . . .

  ..
Blanc




From InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com  Mon Jul 29 07:37:26 2002
From: InsightontheNews at broadbandpublisher.com (Insight on the News)
Date: 29 Jul 2002 10:37:26 -0400
Subject: Insight on the News Email Edition
Message-ID: <200207291038264.SM01244@broadbandpublisher.com>


INSIGHT NEWS ALERT!

A new issue of Insight on the News is now online

http://www.insightmag.com

...............................................

Folks, it�s a hundred in the shade in Washington today. And your representatives 
can�t wait to get out of town � not because of the heat. They�re coming home to 
you to get reelected in November. This week Jennifer Hickey reveals all the 
unexpected details of this important story 
http://www.insightmag.com/news/259458.html. And how about Janet Reno? Martin 
Andersen sets her record straight as she tries to save her last dance for the 
people of Florida http://www.insightmag.com/news/259482.html. And, as always, 
there�s a whole lot more for your summer edification. Just look below. Until 
next time. From the Bunker. I�m your newsman in Washington.

...............................................

HIGH STAKES ON THE HOME STRETCH

Jennifer Hickey writes that Republicans and Democrats find themselves locked in 
a high-stakes battle for control of both the House and the Senate as they head 
down the home stretch for Election Day 2002.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/259458.html

...............................................

DOES FLORIDA LOVE RENO � NOW THAT SHE CAN DANCE?

Martin Andersen writes that a gala fund-raiser in South Beach might have 
dispelled the question, "Can she dance?" but Janet Reno still must face the 
music over concerns about whether she is fit to run the Sunshine State.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/259482.html

...............................................

ENRON BOARD KNEW IT ALL ALONG

Kelly O�Meara reveals that a Senate subcommittee has concluded that Enron's 
board of directors knowingly gave its blessing to outrageous business practices 
that led directly to the company's downfall.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/259480.html



========================================

William F. Buckley, Jr.: Pied Piper for the Establishment

HAVE YOU BEEN DECEIVED?

Discover Buckley�s promotion of liberal causes and how he has been leading 
Americans away from true conservatism since the 1960s.

http://www.jbs.org/buckley/insight2.htm

========================================



WHY MOROCCO IS DIFFERENT

James Lucier tells us that Morocco's evolution to a modern country rejects the 
terror and seeks integration into the world economy thanks to a religious 
outlook that is open to change. http://www.insightmag.com/news/259470.html

...............................................

KIDS ABANDONED ON RYAN�S WATCH

Timothy Maier reports that Clinton darling Mary Ryan, who badly mishandled 
international child-abduction cases, has fallen victim to yet another scandal 
and been 'retired' by Colin Powell.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/259483.html

...............................................

IT�S OFFICIAL � CHINA �A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER� TO U.S.

For the first time, an official policy document clearly states that Beijing's 
military buildup against Taiwan is a clear and present danger to U.S. interests 
in the Pacific.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/259476.html



========================================

     INSIGHT SUBSCRIPTION SPECIAL!

     Save $50.83 (Off Our Newsstand Price)

     https://www.collegepublisher.com/insightsub/subform1.cfm

========================================


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From remailer at aarg.net  Mon Jul 29 12:25:25 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:25:25 -0700
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
Message-ID: <eedbe86ce4af18036fc77f61f8eea064@aarg.net>


On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:25:37 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
>
> Congressman Wants to Let Entertainment Industry Get Into Your Computer
>
>       Rep. Howard L. Berman, D-Calif., formally proposed
>       legislation that would give the industry unprecedented new
>       authority to secretly hack into consumers' computers or knock
>       them off-line entirely if they are caught downloading
>       copyrighted material.
>
> I've been reading things like this for a while but I wonder how practical
> such an attack would be. They won't be able to hack into computers with
> reasonable firewalls and while they might try DOS attacks, upstream
> connectivity suppliers might object. Under current P2P software they may
> be able to do a little hacking but the opposition will rewrite the
> software to block. DOS attacks and phony file uploads can be defeated
> with digital signatures and reputation systems (including third party
> certification). Another problem -- Napster had 55 million customers.
> That's a lot of people to attack. I don't think Hollywood has the troops.

I like this scenario: Adam places his copyrighted content on his web site. His friend, Eve, 
violates his copyright and places Adam's copyrighted content on her site. Hollywood downloads the 
copyright-infringing content from Eve's site. Eve confesses that Hollywood did so, in a good faith 
effort to repent from her copyright infringement. Now Adam hacks Hollywood, as authorized by the 
proposed law. Lawsuits all around.




From frissell at panix.com  Mon Jul 29 11:25:37 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:25:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207291424060.16337-100000@panix1.panix.com>


Congressman Wants to Let Entertainment Industry Get Into Your Computer

      Rep. Howard L. Berman, D-Calif., formally proposed
      legislation that would give the industry unprecedented new
      authority to secretly hack into consumers' computers or knock
      them off-line entirely if they are caught downloading
      copyrighted material.

I've been reading things like this for a while but I wonder how practical
such an attack would be. They won't be able to hack into computers with
reasonable firewalls and while they might try DOS attacks, upstream
connectivity suppliers might object. Under current P2P software they may
be able to do a little hacking but the opposition will rewrite the
software to block. DOS attacks and phony file uploads can be defeated
with digital signatures and reputation systems (including third party
certification). Another problem -- Napster had 55 million customers.
That's a lot of people to attack. I don't think Hollywood has the troops.

DCF




From remailer at aarg.net  Mon Jul 29 15:35:32 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:35:32 -0700
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
Message-ID: <21c2b1fa881cdf27375fb175816f2ef0@aarg.net>


Declan McCullagh writes at
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-946890.html:

   "The world is moving toward closed digital rights management systems
   where you may need approval to run programs," says David Wagner,
   an assistant professor of computer science at the University of
   California at Berkeley.  "Both Palladium and TCPA incorporate features
   that would restrict what applications you could run."

But both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict what
applications you run.  The TPM FAQ at
http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads, in
answer #1:

: The TPM can store measurements of components of the user's system, but
: the TPM is a passive device and doesn't decide what software can or
: can't run on a user's system.

An apparently legitimate but leaked Palladium White Paper at
http://www.neowin.net/staff/users/Voodoo/Palladium_White_Paper_final.pdf
says, on the page shown as number 2:

: A Palladium-enhanced computer must continue to run any existing
: applications and device drivers.

and goes on,

: In addition, Palladium does not change what can be programmed or run
: on the computing platform; it simply changes what can be believed about
: programs, and the durability of those beliefs.

Of course, white papers and FAQs are not technical documents and may not
be completely accurate.  To really answer the question, we need to look
at the spec.  Unfortunately there is no Palladium spec publicly available
yet, but we do have one for TCPA, at
http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/main%20v1_1b.pdf.

Can you find anything in this spec that would do what David Wagner says
above, restrict what applications you could run?  Despite studying this
spec for many hours, no such feature has been found.

So here is the challenge to David Wagner, a well known and justifiably
respected computer security expert: find language in the TCPA spec to
back up your claim above, that TCPA will restrict what applications
you can run.  Either that, or withdraw the claim, and try to get Declan
McCullagh to issue a correction.  (Good luck with that!)

And if you want, you can get Ross Anderson to help you.  His reports are
full of claims about Palladium and TCPA which seem equally unsupported
by the facts.  When pressed, he claims secret knowledge.  Hopefully David
Wagner will have too much self-respect to fall back on such a convenient
excuse.




From ericm at lne.com  Mon Jul 29 17:22:28 2002
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:22:28 -0700
Subject: What happened to cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <3D41712F.910CA4BB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from
  k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 04:56:31PM +0100
References: <200207240353.g6O3rNW04172@artifact.psychedelic.net>
  <3D4008CE.F271F3D6@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <3D41712F.910CA4BB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20020729172228.A24115@slack.lne.com>


On Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 04:56:31PM +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
> This is just a test message to see if it gets back to me.
> 
> No traffic on lne or ssz though here for 24 hours.
> Which after a few 100 in previous 2 days seems odd.


Ssz seems to have gotten itself put in most of the open
relay blacklists recently.  Your ISP may be blocking
mail from Ssz to you.  Received cpunks traffic here at lne
has been pretty light over the last four days
or so.  Perhaps everyone is taking a break?


--
Eric (who doesn't use other people's blacklists)




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Jul 29 18:09:16 2002
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:09:16 -0700
Subject: Learning to love Big Brother: George W. Bush channels George
  Orwell 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020729180809.04db7de8@pop3.lvcm.com>


[Might be funnier if it weren't so true...]

Learning to love Big Brother
George W. Bush channels George Orwell
Daniel Kurtzman
Sunday, July 28, 2002
)2002 San Francisco Chronicle.
URL: 
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/a/2002/07/28/IN244190.DTL

Here's a question for constitutional scholars: Can a sitting president be 
charged with plagiarism?
As President Bush wages his war against terrorism and moves to create a 
huge homeland security apparatus, he appears to be borrowing heavily, if 
not ripping off ideas outright, from George Orwell. The work in question is 
"1984, " the prophetic novel about a government that controls the masses by 
spreading propaganda, cracking down on subversive thought and altering 
history to suit its needs. It was intended to be read as a warning about 
the evils of totalitarianism -- not a how-to manual.




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From kwillaias236 at e-net.com.br  Tue Jul 30 07:23:13 2002
From: kwillaias236 at e-net.com.br (James)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:23:13 -1900
Subject: Need To Know if you Got It                    29644
Message-ID: <000005cc29fc$00004c7b$000047ea@smtp.connect.ie>


Dear Friend:

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to say they read my column in the Conservative Chronicle.
People really devour this publication, and for good reason:
it tells you everything you need to know about the
conservative perspective on current events, and more. (L.
Brent Bozell III)

To Be Taken Off Our Mailing list please send a E-mail by
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 29 17:33:22 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:33:22 -0500
Subject: CNN.com - Disposable cell phones on the way - July 29, 2002
Message-ID: <3D45DED1.C343DCA4@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/07/29/telecoms.throwaway.reut/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Jul 29 17:59:48 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:59:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: What happened to cypherpunks?
In-Reply-To: <20020729172228.A24115@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020729195730.12251P-100000@einstein.ssz.com>


On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Eric Murray wrote:

> Ssz seems to have gotten itself put in most of the open
> relay blacklists recently.

It was on them before, we changed IP's and they're back.

Sorry assed socialist rat bastards. Hypocrites too since the spammers use 
them as a easy source of Open Relay info - otherwise they'd have to hunt
for it themselves. The cost of doing spam would be much higher.

>  Your ISP may be blocking mail from Ssz to you.

Sue their ass your right to free association is being violated!

> Received cpunks traffic here at lne
> has been pretty light over the last four days
> or so.  Perhaps everyone is taking a break?

The list traffic has been light.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




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From frissell at panix.com  Mon Jul 29 19:44:06 2002
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 22:44:06 -0400
Subject: Pizza with a credit card
Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20020729224220.0563ba40@mail.panix.com>


<http://villagevoice.com/issues/0230/baard.php>Buying Trouble

In which the Village Voice discusses the use of commercial databases 
including supermarket discount cards in hunting terrorists.

One useful piece of advice:

Don't but pizza with a credit card:
Oddly enough, "one of the factors was if you were a person who frequently 
ordered pizza and paid with a credit card," Ponemon says, describing the 
buying habits of a nation of college students. "Sometimes data leads to an 
empirical inference when you add it to other variables. Whether this one is 
relevant or completely spurious remains to be seen, but those kinds of 
weird things happen with data."

Course all those terrorists buying their pizzas with cash get away clean.

DCF
----
Posted by Duncan Frissell to <http://technoptimist.blogspot.com>The 
Technoptimist at 7/29/2002 10:19:30 AM




From reply at default.com  Mon Jul 29 15:19:50 2002
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Subject: 48 Hours to Launch...$9,058.00+ per month very Possible...
Message-ID: <200207292228.RAA21017@einstein.ssz.com>

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From louisk_alu at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 29 17:37:40 2002
From: louisk_alu at hotmail.com (Louis Kalu)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:37:40 +0200
Subject: A cry for Help!
Message-ID: <200207300133.UAA24585@einstein.ssz.com>

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-------------- next part --------------
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From frankmobutu at email.com  Tue Jul 30 02:47:40 2002
From: frankmobutu at email.com (Frank Mobutu)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:47:40 -0700
Subject: From: Mobutu
Message-ID: <200207300155.UAA25440@einstein.ssz.com>


DEAR FRIEND,
I AM A CITIZEN OF ZAIRE, SON OF THE  LATE FORMER
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THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS,

FRANK MOBUTU.      

 





From ABRAHAM at lycos.com  Tue Jul 30 01:44:04 2002
From: ABRAHAM at lycos.com (Kenny)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 03:44:04 -0500
Subject: Telecom Consolidation Begins to Accelerate.................... ylr
Message-ID: <200207300843.g6U8hVoZ011549@ak47.algebra.com>

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From wi8zaxn5s4688 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 30 17:37:24 2002
From: wi8zaxn5s4688 at hotmail.com (Autumn)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 05:37:24 -1900
Subject: Toners and inkjet cartridges for less....           WN
Message-ID: <00002afc2b8c$00001f0f$00001e1b@mx06.hotmail.com>

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From dog3 at eruditium.org  Tue Jul 30 04:53:00 2002
From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 07:53:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Pizza with a credit card
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20020729224220.0563ba40@mail.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207300749330.31067-100000@ns.eruditium.org>


On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> <http://villagevoice.com/issues/0230/baard.php>Buying Trouble
> 
> In which the Village Voice discusses the use of commercial databases 
> including supermarket discount cards in hunting terrorists.
> 
> One useful piece of advice:
> 
> Don't but pizza with a credit card:
> SNIP
> 
> Course all those terrorists buying their pizzas with cash get away clean.


I've wondered for years how much longer this
will be allowed. Cash is still viable. Not
as viable as it was 10, or even 5 years ago.
I am still able to travel with only cash, buy
a pizza with only cash, or other food, still
buy groceries without having to produce mein
ausweiss (why I stopped shopping at CostCo
years back). But it is all getting stickier.




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From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Jul 30 07:58:56 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 07:58:56 -0700
Subject: Choate's Freedom to Dissociate
Message-ID: <3D46A9B0.1C5F49D2@cdc.gov>


At 07:59 PM 7/29/02 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Eric Murray wrote:
>>  Your ISP may be blocking mail from Ssz to you.
>
>Sue their ass your right to free association is being violated!

Um, right after we finish sueing other folks for not letting us
put our bumper stickers on their cars (1st amend and all that..)




From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Jul 30 08:13:44 2002
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:13:44 -0700
Subject: today in dc
Message-ID: <3D46AD28.DB554B30@cdc.gov>


At 09:49 AM 7/30/02 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
>Actually, this clicks neatly onto cp debates over open vs closed
>systems, TCPA, DRM, and 'freedom to hack'.
>
>Most modern cars are substantially computerized. Diagnosing a
>problem usually involves hooking up a PC to a port on the car's
>engine management system, and studying the readouts.
>
>The 'problem' that the congresscritters are trying to 'solve' is
>that some car manufacturers are now closing this interface -
>they are refusing to document the protocols, and/or encrypting
>the data.

Yes, a note about this appeared on this list a few weeks
ago, along with a Blacknet Automotive Division request
for these diag codes.

\begin{ethicsrant}
It is perfectly within the rights of an individual (or corp) to
retain trade secrets.  It is also within the rights of others to
reverse engineer these secrets particularly for interoperability
reasons.  These observations are not only based on
libertarian-ethical principles but US law history.
\end{ethicsrant}

>As a result, the manufacturers are able to restrict who has
>access to this diagnostic data, and are using this power to
>shut out independent repair shops and other competition to
>their own dealerships. The meeting is going to discuss
>whether 'something should be done'. I have no idea what will
>happen, if anything.
>
>So, let's see:
>
>* The manufacturers are using DRM technology, including crypto,
>to restrict access to the data.

That's fine.

>* If you reverse-engineered the system, the DMCA could get
>involved (not sure on this one).

Were that true, that would NOT be fine.  It is not acceptable to
abuse the violence of the state (ie law) in this way --to deny
the ability to reverse engineer.

>* The manufacturers are closing the system to outside inspection,
>and actively working to make it impossible for owners to tinker with
>or modify their own cars.

(As a hacker) Regrettable but fine.  "Potting the fucker in epoxy"
is their right.

>* There is absolutely no benefit to the car's owner - this is simply
>large corporationsfiguring out another way to get more revenue.

So what?  Buy a car from someone else then.  The GNUmobile project?

>This is essentially 'Palladium for cars'.

The carmakers say this is for safety.  Perhaps this is as lame as the
political powergrabs justified fnord in the name of "national security".

Clearly, as engineers, we know that IFF the carmakers
documented what their employees know, then third-parties could
do as good a job.  But there is no obligation to document what you
sell.  Or make it easy for others to fix your stuff ---those stupid
proprietary screws used on some equiptment to keep you out
are not illegal.  But neither is defeating them.  Modulo your
warrantee, which is fair.

Of course, the State might well use the "safety" lever to open
the codes; or it might simply extend a tentacle of fascism
and require it for the nominal benefit of the sheeple.  Consider
if this behavior were applied more generally.

Anyway, PT is right on, this is right up our alley.




From declan at well.com  Tue Jul 30 06:27:09 2002
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:27:09 -0400
Subject: today in dc
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020730092622.028eb508@mail.well.com>


no, not a joke. yes, this is clearly an important thing for our 
congresscritters to be doing.


SENATE COMMERCE, SCIENCE AND TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE
Consumer Protection
Consumer Affairs, Foreign Commerce, and Tourism Subcommittee hearing
on improvement in consumer choice with regard to automobile repair
shops.
Witnesses: Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn.; Bill Haas, vice
     president, Technical Division, Education and
     Training, Automotive Service Assn., Bedford,
     TX; John Cabamiss, Jr., director, Environment
     and Energy, Assn. of International Auto Manufacturers,
     Arlington, VA; Dale Feste, Dale Feste Automotive,
     Hopkins, MN; Josephine Cooper, president,
     Alliance of Automotive Manufacturers; John
     Nielson, director, Automotive Services and
     Repair Network, AAA; John Vallely, president,
     McLean Marathon Service, Elgin, IL
Location: 253 Russell Senate Office Building. 2:30 p.m.
Contact: 202-224-5115 http://commerce.senate.gov
**REVISED**




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Jul 30 06:49:06 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:49:06 -0400
Subject: today in dc
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD63@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> Declan McCullagh[SMTP:declan at well.com] wrote:
> 
> no, not a joke. yes, this is clearly an important thing for our 
> congresscritters to be doing.
> 
> SENATE COMMERCE, SCIENCE AND TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE
> Consumer Protection
> Consumer Affairs, Foreign Commerce, and Tourism Subcommittee hearing
> on improvement in consumer choice with regard to automobile repair
> shops.
	[...]

Actually, this clicks neatly onto cp debates over open vs closed
systems, TCPA, DRM, and 'freedom to hack'.

Most modern cars are substantially computerized. Diagnosing a
problem usually involves hooking up a PC to a port on the car's
engine management system, and studying the readouts.

The 'problem' that the congresscritters are trying to 'solve' is
that some car manufacturers are now closing this interface -
they are refusing to document the protocols, and/or encrypting
the data.

As a result, the manufacturers are able to restrict who has
access to this diagnostic data, and are using this power to
shut out independent repair shops and other competition to
their own dealerships. The meeting is going to discuss 
whether 'something should be done'. I have no idea what will
happen, if anything.

So, let's see:

* The manufacturers are using DRM technology, including crypto,
to restrict access to the data.
* If you reverse-engineered the system, the DMCA could get
involved (not sure on this one).
* The manufacturers are closing the system to outside inspection,
and actively working to make it impossible for owners to tinker with 
or modify their own cars. 
* There is absolutely no benefit to the car's owner - this is simply
large corporationsfiguring out another way to get more revenue.

This is essentially 'Palladium for cars'.

Peter Trei




From pitster265500359 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 30 09:14:01 2002
From: pitster265500359 at hotmail.com (pitster265500359 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:14:01 -0400
Subject: Keep prying eyes out of your computer.
Message-ID: <H02O6K00.D0R@www3.edfund.org>

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From AlbionZeglin at Total-Security.com  Tue Jul 30 09:40:00 2002
From: AlbionZeglin at Total-Security.com (Albion Zeglin)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:40:00 -0400
Subject: today in dc
Message-ID: <1028047200.3d46c160dbc9d@mail.spamcop.net>


There are consumer protection laws that may be used to open this up.
Manufacturers are required to provide for repair parts for a minimum 
amount of time.  Being able to take your car to an independent repair
services has in the past been defined as an owner's right.

Data pertaining to the specific car will probablly be required to be
available.   Data only used to build aggregate fleet data might still
be protected.  

Being able to modify the parameters might impair the manufacturers "Fleet"
air quality/fuel efficiency averages, without a exeption which may be
part of the final law.
 
An owner could of course replace the entire control system with a retrofit.

This practice of encryption might also be to protect the market for 
computerized tools sold to repair shops.  At $5000 apiece per car make per
repair shop that's a lot of money.

If safety is really the issue then tamper evident seals on the systems
might be able to absolve the manufacturers, unless the ability to hack
the systems is considered an "Attractive Nusiance".  Consumer Protection
laws are pretty harsh in the country, remember computers don't usually kill
people when they fail,  cars certainly can.

And all this is just the complexity that I can think of.  Imagine a team
of lobbyists and their presenations.

Albion.


Quoting "Major Variola (ret)" <mv at cdc.gov>:

> At 09:49 AM 7/30/02 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
> >Actually, this clicks neatly onto cp debates over open vs closed
> >systems, TCPA, DRM, and 'freedom to hack'.
> >
> >Most modern cars are substantially computerized. Diagnosing a
> >problem usually involves hooking up a PC to a port on the car's
> >engine management system, and studying the readouts.
> >
> >The 'problem' that the congresscritters are trying to 'solve' is
> >that some car manufacturers are now closing this interface -
> >they are refusing to document the protocols, and/or encrypting
> >the data.
> 
> Yes, a note about this appeared on this list a few weeks
> ago, along with a Blacknet Automotive Division request
> for these diag codes.
> 
> \begin{ethicsrant}
> It is perfectly within the rights of an individual (or corp) to
> retain trade secrets.  It is also within the rights of others to
> reverse engineer these secrets particularly for interoperability
> reasons.  These observations are not only based on
> libertarian-ethical principles but US law history.
> \end{ethicsrant}
> 
> >As a result, the manufacturers are able to restrict who has
> >access to this diagnostic data, and are using this power to
> >shut out independent repair shops and other competition to
> >their own dealerships. The meeting is going to discuss
> >whether 'something should be done'. I have no idea what will
> >happen, if anything.
> >
> >So, let's see:
> >
> >* The manufacturers are using DRM technology, including crypto,
> >to restrict access to the data.
> 
> That's fine.
> 
> >* If you reverse-engineered the system, the DMCA could get
> >involved (not sure on this one).
> 
> Were that true, that would NOT be fine.  It is not acceptable to
> abuse the violence of the state (ie law) in this way --to deny
> the ability to reverse engineer.
> 
> >* The manufacturers are closing the system to outside inspection,
> >and actively working to make it impossible for owners to tinker with
> >or modify their own cars.
> 
> (As a hacker) Regrettable but fine.  "Potting the fucker in epoxy"
> is their right.
> 
> >* There is absolutely no benefit to the car's owner - this is simply
> >large corporationsfiguring out another way to get more revenue.
> 
> So what?  Buy a car from someone else then.  The GNUmobile project?
> 
> >This is essentially 'Palladium for cars'.
> 
> The carmakers say this is for safety.  Perhaps this is as lame as the
> political powergrabs justified fnord in the name of "national security".
> 
> Clearly, as engineers, we know that IFF the carmakers
> documented what their employees know, then third-parties could
> do as good a job.  But there is no obligation to document what you
> sell.  Or make it easy for others to fix your stuff ---those stupid
> proprietary screws used on some equiptment to keep you out
> are not illegal.  But neither is defeating them.  Modulo your
> warrantee, which is fair.
> 
> Of course, the State might well use the "safety" lever to open
> the codes; or it might simply extend a tentacle of fascism
> and require it for the nominal benefit of the sheeple.  Consider
> if this behavior were applied more generally.
> 
> Anyway, PT is right on, this is right up our alley.




From jaenicke at openssl.org  Tue Jul 30 04:53:04 2002
From: jaenicke at openssl.org (Lutz Jaenicke)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:53:04 +0200
Subject: Announcement: OpenSSL 0.9.6e (Security related upgrade)
Message-ID: <20020730135302.A1124@openssl.org>


  OpenSSL version 0.9.6e released
  ===============================

  OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS
  http://www.openssl.org/

  The OpenSSL project team is pleased to announce the release of version
  0.9.6e of our open source toolkit for SSL/TLS.  This new OpenSSL version
  is a security and bugfix release and incorporates several changes to the
  toolkit (for a complete list see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES).

  The most significant changes are:

      o Important security related bugfixes.
      o Various SSL/TLS library bugfixes.

  We consider OpenSSL 0.9.6e to be the best version of OpenSSL available
  and we strongly recommend that users of older versions upgrade as
  soon as possible.  OpenSSL 0.9.6e is available for download via HTTP
  and FTP from the following master locations (you can find the various
  FTP mirrors under http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html):

    o http://www.openssl.org/source/
    o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/

  [1] OpenSSL comes in the form of two distributions this time.
  The reasons for this is that we want to deploy the external crypto device
  support but don't want to have it part of the "normal" distribution just
  yet.  The distribution containing the external crypto device support is
  popularly called "engine", and is considered experimental.  It's been
  fairly well tested on Unix and flavors thereof.  If run on a system with
  no external crypto device, it will work just like the "normal" distribution.

  The distribution file names are:

      o openssl-0.9.6e.tar.gz [normal]
      o openssl-engine-0.9.6e.tar.gz [engine]

  Yours,
  The OpenSSL Project Team...  

    Mark J. Cox             Ben Laurie          Andy Polyakoff
    Ralf S. Engelschall     Richard Levitte     Geoff Thorpe
    Dr. Stephen Henson      Bodo Möller
    Lutz Jänicke            Ulf Möller
--
Lutz Jaenicke           jaenicke at openssl.org
OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~jaenicke/

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From jaenicke at openssl.org  Tue Jul 30 05:44:18 2002
From: jaenicke at openssl.org (Lutz Jaenicke)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:44:18 +0200
Subject: [Announce] OpenSSL 0.9.7-beta3 (Security)
Message-ID: <20020730144417.A4573@openssl.org>

The third beta release of OpenSSL 0.9.7 is now available from the
OpenSSL FTP site <URL: ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/>. Quite a lot
of code changed between the 0.9.6 release and the 0.9.7 release, so
a series of 3 or 4 beta releases is planned before the final release.

SECURITY INFORMATION:
      o Several security fixes were newly introduced to OpenSSL 0.9.6e,
	    see OpenSSL Security Advisory [30 July 2002].
      o OpenSSL 0.9.7-beta3 is the first 0.9.7-beta release containing these
	    fixes. Users of older beta versions or snapshots are urged to
		upgrade to 0.9.7-beta3.

To make sure that it will work correctly, please test this version
(especially on less common platforms), and report any problems to
<openssl-bugs at openssl.org>.
Application developers that use OpenSSL to provide cryptographic
routines or SSL/TLS support are kindly requested to test their
software against this new release to make sure that necessary adaptions
can be made.

Changes between 0.9.6x and 0.9.7 include:

      o New library section OCSP.
      o Complete rewrite of ASN1 code.
      o CRL checking in verify code and openssl utility.
      o Extension copying in 'ca' utility.
      o Flexible display options in 'ca' utility.
      o Provisional support for international characters with UTF8.
      o Support for external crypto devices ('engine') is no longer
        a separate distribution.
      o New elliptic curve library section.
      o New AES (Rijndael) library section.
      o Change DES API to clean up the namespace (some applications link also
        against libdes providing similar functions having the same name).
        Provide macros for backward compatibility (will be removed in the
        future).
      o Unifiy handling of cryptographic algorithms (software and
        engine) to be available via EVP routines for asymmetric and
        symmetric ciphers.
      o NCONF: new configuration handling routines.
      o Change API to use more 'const' modifiers to improve error checking
        and help optimizers.
      o Finally remove references to RSAref.
      o Reworked parts of the BIGNUM code.
      o Support for new engines: Broadcom ubsec, Accelerated Encryption
        Processing, IBM 4758.
      o Extended and corrected OID (object identifier) table.
      o PRNG: query at more locations for a random device, automatic query for
        EGD style random sources at several locations.
      o SSL/TLS: allow optional cipher choice according to server's preference.
      o SSL/TLS: allow server to explicitly set new session ids.
      o SSL/TLS: support Kerberos cipher suites (RFC2712).
      o SSL/TLS: allow more precise control of renegotiations and sessions.
      o SSL/TLS: add callback to retrieve SSL/TLS messages.
      o SSL/TLS: add draft AES ciphersuites (disabled unless explicitly requested).
--
Lutz Jaenicke           jaenicke at openssl.org
OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~jaenicke/

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From alonemarried3678e51 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 30 01:35:48 2002
From: alonemarried3678e51 at yahoo.com (Lonely Married)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:35:48 +0700
Subject: Single and Married women and men alike are looking for someone!
Message-ID: <024b06d60a7d$2332e6a8$0ad22ee1@acmuja>

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From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Jul 30 17:16:12 2002
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:16:12 -0700
Subject: How to Defeat DVD Zone Controls
In-Reply-To: <3D4724CC.1040001@tweakt.net>
References: <200207290542.g6T5gEm76407@mailserver2.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020730171419.04fbc9a0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 07:44 PM 7/30/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>mean-green at hushmail.com wrote:
> > Most players cannot be hacked.  And many hacks do not operate
> > properly.  How about just rent or borrow DVDs, reprocess to remove
> > the region controls and reburn to a DVD-R?  DVD-Rs are only about
> > $1.25 or less each.  Test burn on a DVD-RW to help prevent expensive
> > coasters. See http://mpucoder.dynodns.net/derrow/copy.html
>
>$1.25? When did this happen, last I knew they were $8-10 or $5 in
>*LARGE* quantities.

See http://www.pricewatch.com and http://www.americal.com


steve




From richard at wirelesscellutions.com  Tue Jul 30 16:53:21 2002
From: richard at wirelesscellutions.com (Richard Hidalgo)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:53:21 -0500
Subject: July Handset Blow Out Sale
Message-ID: <200207301954515.SM02620@richard>

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From mark at tweakt.net  Tue Jul 30 16:44:12 2002
From: mark at tweakt.net (Mark Renouf)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:44:12 -0400
Subject: How to Defeat DVD Zone Controls
References: <200207290542.g6T5gEm76407@mailserver2.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4724CC.1040001@tweakt.net>


mean-green at hushmail.com wrote:
 > Most players cannot be hacked.  And many hacks do not operate
 > properly.  How about just rent or borrow DVDs, reprocess to remove
 > the region controls and reburn to a DVD-R?  DVD-Rs are only about
 > $1.25 or less each.  Test burn on a DVD-RW to help prevent expensive
 > coasters. See http://mpucoder.dynodns.net/derrow/copy.html

$1.25? When did this happen, last I knew they were $8-10 or $5 in
*LARGE* quantities.




From contact-ir073002-56325112 at b04.x0z.net  Tue Jul 30 17:46:42 2002
From: contact-ir073002-56325112 at b04.x0z.net (Profile To Investors)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:46:42 -0500
Subject: NASDAQ:IRPC - Special Report Alert
Message-ID: <200207310110.UAA32462@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Jul 30 20:51:24 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:24 -0700
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
In-Reply-To: <21c2b1fa881cdf27375fb175816f2ef0@aarg.net>
Message-ID: <3D46FC4C.1146.2D7F8BE@localhost>


    --


On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote:
> both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict 
> what applications you run.  The TPM FAQ at 
> http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads
> ....

They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     ElmZA5NX6jAmhPu1EDT8Zl7D+IeQTSI/z1oo4lSn
     2qoSIC6KSr2LFLWyxZEETG/27dEy3yOWEnRtXzHy9




From remailer at aarg.net  Tue Jul 30 22:05:15 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:05:15 -0700
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
Message-ID: <5eb418a910881276a731edab4bb13b00@aarg.net>


James Donald wrote:
> On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote:
> > both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict 
> > what applications you run.  The TPM FAQ at 
> > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads
>
> They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability. 

Maybe, but the point is whether the architectural spec includes that
capability.  After all, any OS could restrict what applications you
run; you don't need special hardware for that.  The question is whether
restrictions on software are part of the design spec.  You should be
able to point to something in the TCPA spec that would restrict or limit
software, if that is the case.

Or do you think that when David Wagner said, "Both Palladium and TCPA
incorporate features that would restrict what applications you could run,"
he meant "that *could* restrict what applications you run"?  They *could*
impose restrictions, just like any OS could impose restrictions.

But to say that they *would* impose restrictions is a stronger
statement, don't you think?  If you claim that an architecture would
impose restrictions, shouldn't you be able to point to somewhere in the
design document where it explains how this would occur?

There's enormous amount of information in the TCPA spec about how to
measure the code which is going to be run, and to report those measurement
results so third parties can know what code is running.  But there's not
one word about preventing software from running based on the measurements.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 04:46:30 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:46:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Choate's Freedom to Dissociate
In-Reply-To: <3D46A9B0.1C5F49D2@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731064451.12251S-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> At 07:59 PM 7/29/02 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Eric Murray wrote:
> >>  Your ISP may be blocking mail from Ssz to you.
> >
> >Sue their ass your right to free association is being violated!
> 
> Um, right after we finish sueing other folks for not letting us
> put our bumper stickers on their cars (1st amend and all that..)

Your email is YOUR EMAIL, not your ISP's.

Compare what happens with spammers and RBL style restrictions by comparing
your ISP to an apartment house and the physical network as streets.

Think hard, it should take no more than about 5 minutes for you to figure
it out.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:34:33 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:34:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Weighing the true costs of spam filters (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731073418.12251W-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.nwfusion.com/columnists/2002/0729netbuzz.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:35:07 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:35:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: PCWorld.com - Compression Tool Offers Easy Encryption (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731073439.12251X-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,103385,00.asp


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:42:22 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:42:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | Escher and Elliptic Curves (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731074208.12251Y-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://science.slashdot.org/science/02/07/30/1210228.shtml?tid=134


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:46:06 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:46:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Register - Tougher penalties for UK copyright thieves (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731074552.12251Z-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://theregister.co.uk/content/6/26443.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:46:43 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:46:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Tiny Device Traps Electrons for Quantum Computing (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731074616.12251a-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://sci.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18794.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:47:03 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:47:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Senate puts off vote on security -- The Washington Times (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731074651.12251b-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20020730-13647898.htm


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:47:23 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:47:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Bush to Create Formal Office To Shape U.S. Image Abroad  (washingtonpost.com) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731074711.12251c-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18822-2002Jul29.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:47:50 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:47:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Salon.com Technology | Sour notes (mp3, IP, Law) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731074739.12251d-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/30/file_trading/index.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:48:10 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:48:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slashdot | RIAA Smacked by DoS (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731074758.12251e-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/30/1516252.shtml?tid=99


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Jul 31 05:48:40 2002
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:48:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CNN.com - Napster future seen bleak - July 30, 2002 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020731074829.12251g-100000@einstein.ssz.com>



http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/industry/07/30/napster.bertelsmann.reut/index.html


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

              When I die, I would like to be born again as me.

                                            Hugh Hefner
     ravage at ssz.com                                         www.ssz.com
     jchoate at open-forge.org                          www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Jul 31 08:06:10 2002
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A.Melon)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:06:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A Q&A exchange between me and Eugene Volokh
Message-ID: <8da5baeaaf80643337c38914b56461da@melontraffickers.com>


On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:50:35 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:
>
> A Q&A exchange between me and Eugene Volokh:
> [Eugene's responses in square brackets.]
>
> The topic was Gilmore v. Ashcroft -- FAA ID Challenge in which John
> Gilmore is suing the Feds to be allowed to fly domestically without ID.
>
> So, does John have a chance?
>
> [No.]
>
> So it is your view that the Feds can ban anyone (except those wealthy
> enough to rent, buy, or build their own aircraft) from flying, for life,
> using secret orders, and without any
> access to judicial process.
>
> Seems a bit extreme to me.

To put this in a broader and an historical perspective, let me point out that the government of 
the United States moved from the eloquent ideals and words of the Declaration of Independence, to 
a law that declared that any treasonable activity, including the publication of "any false, 
scandalous and malicious writing," was a high misdemeanor, punishable by fine and imprisonment, in 
just 22 years and 10 days.

By virtue of this legislation, twenty-five men, most of them editors of Republican newspapers, 
were arrested and their newspapers forced to shut down.(The Sedition Act, 1798, Section 2, 
http://earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/sedition/s-2.html ). As the newspapers were 
shuttered, the 1st amendment was only 6 and a half years old.

I would submit for your consideration that governments of whatever stripe tenaciously and 
constantly move to expand the span and scope of their control, either with support of seemingly 
innocuous "stepping stone" laws, or by blatant disregard of law, precedent, or whatever else 
impedes that expansion. The most favorite tactic of those governments pretending western-style 
democracy is to implement secret, draconian controls and chilling surveillance to "protect the 
children" or "wage war on terrorism" or other real and imagined violent threats, over-hyped. The 
government uses the same pitch that comes from organized crime: "You want protection (security), 
you have to give up some money (freedom). You are either with us or against us. We cannot wait 
while dangers gather."

Want to put a couple hundred thousand US citizens in concentration camps because of their 
ancestry? The Supreme Court sees nothing in the constitution to interfere with that. The DOJ today 
is quite adept at actions which it holds to be immune from judicial review, so the inconvenience 
of a judicial rubber stamp is no longer needed. And you wonder if the government can require a 
licence to be a passenger on an airliner? They can require a license to leave your house on foot, 
and they are in the process of doing so. "Have papers? Proceed. No papers, oh, you are not under 
arrest, but we need to check into a few things. This will only take a couple of hours or so and 
then you'll be on your way (to the next checkpoint). It's for the children, you know?"

The first step will likely be for airline flight. With travel security papers, come to the airport 
1 hour before departure. Without travel security papers, come to the airport 3 hours before 
departure.

Then we can expect to hear, "May I have your travel security number please?" You know the drill. 
In about 27 minutes, the credit information service companies will also have that number. It will 
be your license, revocable at will, to move about the country, to buy, to own, to lodge.

Has the president suspended the writ of habeas corpus? Sorry, that's secret, and since you asked, 
we must watch you carefully, because as our Attorney General says, civil liberties questions like 
that just give comfort to the enemy.

I know full well that a substantial percentage of readers sees this line of thinking as paranoia. 
I expect that percentage to drop rapidly.

"What do you have to hide?"




From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Jul 31 08:54:04 2002
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:54:04 -0700
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207311051530.9892-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org
  >
References: <3D46FC4C.7060.2D7F8E7@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020731084357.04b41d70@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 11:01 AM 7/31/2002 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, James A. Donald wrote:
>
> > The plan, already implemented, is to flood file sharing systems with
> > bogus files or broken files.  The solution, not yet implemented, is to
> > attach digital signatures to files, and have the file sharing software
> > recognize certain signatures as good or bad.
>
>This is completely unnecessary if you address the document with a
>cryptohash.  An URI like
>http://localhost:4711/f70539bb32961f3d7dba42a9c51442c1218a9100 can only
>adress a particular document.
>
>If you serve broken content your node's reputation falls through the
>floor.
>
>Note that content is distributed, dynamic, and you have no idea what
>you're actually serving.

Looks amazingly familiar.  Could it be, could be, could it be.... Mojo 
Nation (now MNet http://mnet.sourceforge.net )?

steve




From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Jul 31 08:59:14 2002
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:59:14 -0700
Subject: A Q&A exchange between me and Eugene Volokh
In-Reply-To: <8da5baeaaf80643337c38914b56461da@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020731085826.04c52d70@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 08:06 AM 7/31/2002 -0700, A.Melon wrote:
>"What do you have to hide?"

If I have nothing to hide, nobody wants to know.

steve




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 02:01:58 2002
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:01:58 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
In-Reply-To: <3D46FC4C.7060.2D7F8E7@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207311051530.9892-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org>


On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, James A. Donald wrote:

> The plan, already implemented, is to flood file sharing systems with
> bogus files or broken files.  The solution, not yet implemented, is to
> attach digital signatures to files, and have the file sharing software
> recognize certain signatures as good or bad.

This is completely unnecessary if you address the document with a
cryptohash.  An URI like
http://localhost:4711/f70539bb32961f3d7dba42a9c51442c1218a9100 can only
adress a particular document.

If you serve broken content your node's reputation falls through the
floor.

Note that content is distributed, dynamic, and you have no idea what
you're actually serving.
 
> This involves scaling problems that have not yet been thought
> through or implemented.
> 
> As files get copied around, they would accrete ever more digitally
> signed blessings.   The signatures should be arbitrary nyms, as in
> Kong, not true names. The files could also accrete digitally
> signed discommendations, though such files would probably
> propagate considerably less.

The issue of node reputation is completely orthogonal to the document
hashes not colliding. Reputation based systems are useful, because
document URI
http://localhost:4711/f70539bb32961f3d7dba42a9c51442c1218a9100 doesn't say
what's in there. A claim needs to be backed by someone (preferably
anonymous) with a good reputation trail.
 
> When we approve a file, all the people who approved it already get
> added to our trust list, thus helping us select files, and we are
> told that so and so got added to our list of people who recommend
> good files.  This gives people an incentive to rate files, since
> rating files gives them the ability to take advantage of other
> people's ratings.
> 
> If onr discommendd a file, those who discommend it are added to
> our trust list, and those who commended it to our distrust list. 
> If, as will frequently happen, there is a conflict, we are told
> that so and so commended so many files we like, and so many files
> we dislike, so how should future commendations and
> discommendations from him be handled. 




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Jul 31 08:34:58 2002
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:34:58 -0400
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
Message-ID: <F504A8CEE925D411AF4A00508B8BE90A041BAD71@exna07.securitydynamics.com>


> AARG! Anonymous[SMTP:remailer at aarg.net] writes:
> Declan McCullagh writes at
> http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-946890.html:
> 
>    "The world is moving toward closed digital rights management systems
>    where you may need approval to run programs," says David Wagner,
>    an assistant professor of computer science at the University of
>    California at Berkeley.  "Both Palladium and TCPA incorporate features
>    that would restrict what applications you could run."
> 
> But both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict what
> applications you run. 
> 
[...]

> So here is the challenge to David Wagner, a well known and justifiably
> respected computer security expert: find language in the TCPA spec to
> back up your claim above, that TCPA will restrict what applications
> you can run.  
> 
AARG!, our anonymous Pangloss, is strictly correct - Wagner should have
said "could" rather than "would".

However, TCPA and Palladium fall into a class of technologies with a
tremendous potential for abuse. Since the trust model is directed against
the computer's owner (he can't sign code as trusted, or reliably control 
which signing keys are trusted), he has ceded ultimate control of what 
he can and can't do with his computer to another. 

Sure, TCPA can be switched off - until that switch is disabled. It 
could potentially be permenantly disabled by a BIOS update, a 
security patch, a commercial program which carries signed 
disabling code as a Trojan, or over the net through a backdoor or 
vulnerability in any networked software. Or by Congress 
which could make running a TCPA capable machine with TCPA 
turned off illegal.

With TCPA, I now have to trust that a powerful third party, over
which I have no control, and which does not necessarily have
my interests are heart, will not abuse it's power. I don't
want to have to do that.

Peter Trei
Disclaimer: The above represents my personal opinion only. Do
not misconstrue it as representing anyone elses.




From jays at panix.com  Wed Jul 31 08:35:34 2002
From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:35:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
In-Reply-To: <3D46FC4C.1146.2D7F8BE@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0207311132360.9880-100000@panix2.panix.com>


On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, James A. Donald wrote:

>     --
>
>
> On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote:
> > both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict
> > what applications you run.  The TPM FAQ at
> > http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads
> > ....
>
> They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability.
>
>     --digsig
>          James A. Donald

If they do not restrict what programs I may run, then presumably, under
TCPA, I might run a cracking program on an encrypted file I obtained via
TCPA handshake+transmissal?

The claims that TCPA, Palladium, etc. do not give root to the Englobulators
is, on its face, ridiculous.  Their main design criterion is to do so.

oo--JS.




From declan at well.com  Wed Jul 31 08:43:12 2002
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:43:12 -0400
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
In-Reply-To: <21c2b1fa881cdf27375fb175816f2ef0@aarg.net>; from
  remailer@aarg.net on Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 03:35:32PM -0700
References: <21c2b1fa881cdf27375fb175816f2ef0@aarg.net>
Message-ID: <20020731114312.A30483@cluebot.com>


I imagine there's a world of difference between "will" and "would."

-Declan


On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 03:35:32PM -0700, AARG!Anonymous wrote:
> Can you find anything in this spec that would do what David Wagner says
> above, restrict what applications you could run?  Despite studying this
> spec for many hours, no such feature has been found.
> 
> So here is the challenge to David Wagner, a well known and justifiably
> respected computer security expert: find language in the TCPA spec to
> back up your claim above, that TCPA will restrict what applications
> you can run.  Either that, or withdraw the claim, and try to get Declan
> McCullagh to issue a correction.  (Good luck with that!)
> 
> And if you want, you can get Ross Anderson to help you.  His reports are
> full of claims about Palladium and TCPA which seem equally unsupported
> by the facts.  When pressed, he claims secret knowledge.  Hopefully David
> Wagner will have too much self-respect to fall back on such a convenient
> excuse.




From schear at lvcm.com  Wed Jul 31 12:41:53 2002
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:41:53 -0700
Subject: White House Sounds Call For New Internet Standards
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020731095026.01981620@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020731123856.04f5f9d0@pop3.lvcm.com>


WHITE HOUSE SOUNDS CALL FOR NEW INTERNET STANDARDS

The Bush administration's cyber security czar, Richard Clarke, said it might
be time to replace the "creaky, cranky" 20-year-old protocols that drive the
Internet with standards better able to accommodate a flood of new wireless
devices. Wireless devices, it is feared, may introduce large security holes
to the network. The White House is working with the private sector to draft
a national plan to secure the country's most vital computer networks from
cyber attack.

The plan, expected to be released September 18, will include
several policy recommendations for wireless security. Clarke stated that the
administration had an obligation to take an active role in ensuring the
security of the Internet, especially since nearly 81 percent of major
businesses today use, or plan to use, wireless networks.
[SOURCE: The Washington Post, AUTHOR: Brian Krebs]

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22535-2002Jul30.html>




From qehrl at mailme.dk  Wed Jul 31 10:19:18 2002
From: qehrl at mailme.dk (BRIDGET)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:19:18 -0400
Subject: WOULD A GRANT HELP YOU?????
Message-ID: <200207311728.MAA16471@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul 31 13:24:32 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:24:32 -0700
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207311051530.9892-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org
  >
References: <3D46FC4C.7060.2D7F8E7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D47E510.10483.F04074@localhost>


    --
On 31 Jul 2002 at 11:01, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> The issue of node reputation is completely orthogonal to the
> document hashes not colliding. Reputation based systems are
> useful, because document URI 
> http://localhost:4711/f70539bb32961f3d7dba42a9c51442c1218a9100
> doesn't say what's in there. A claim needs to be backed by
> someone (preferably anonymous) with a good reputation trail.

Indeed, but the only working nym based reputation system is that
hosted by Ebay.  Web of trust is not really used much, and
Verisign sucks.

My proposal was to implement a nym based reputation system for
approving content, rather than to assume such a system already
exists.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     n2qkcxSdV2kJT9y6SyQ2iP7hz+Loj0n1HsBec+jV
     2F6qbHlOzuO9Od/r5ZvGa0vDhRSmH/+EjFcQI8Wtc




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul 31 13:24:32 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:24:32 -0700
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
In-Reply-To: <A4A2736E-A497-11D6-8D06-003065D619E2@ncipher.com>
References: <3D46FC4C.1146.2D7F8BE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D47E510.17802.F040BA@localhost>


    --
29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote:
> > > both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to
> > > restrict what applications you run.

James A. Donald:
> > They deny that intent, but physically they have that
> > capability.

 On 31 Jul 2002 at 16:10, Nicko van Someren wrote:
> And all kitchen knives are murder weapons.

No problem if I also have a kitchen knife.

TCPA and Palladium give someone else super root privileges on my
machine, and TAKE THOSE PRIVILEGES AWAY FROM ME.  All claims that
they will not do this are not claims that they will not do this,
but are merely claims that the possessor of super root privilege
on my machine is going to be a very very nice guy, unlike my
wickedly piratical and incompetently trojan horse running self.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     XQHdtzqDInBFsDcorfDvqJYRHTRhEBsM9eMJIH+w
     2+o4WjsTSV8RDUO7k3c71T9v9JQKwZGZC54BqW6DQ




From lloyd at acm.jhu.edu  Wed Jul 31 10:30:14 2002
From: lloyd at acm.jhu.edu (Jack Lloyd)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:30:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020731084357.04b41d70@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33L2.0207311329020.29828-100000@centaur.acm.jhu.edu>


On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Steve Schear wrote:

> Looks amazingly familiar.  Could it be, could be, could it be.... Mojo
> Nation (now MNet http://mnet.sourceforge.net )?

Or OpenCM (http://www.opencm.org)
  -Jack




From fnieuwpoi159amq8 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 31 11:30:39 2002
From: fnieuwpoi159amq8 at yahoo.com (--Direct Marketing)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:30:39 -0500
Subject: Send Safely -100,000 E-Mails $10.00
Message-ID: <200207311841.NAA18142@einstein.ssz.com>


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From fnieuwpoi159amq8 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 31 11:30:40 2002
From: fnieuwpoi159amq8 at yahoo.com (--Direct Marketing)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:30:40 -0500
Subject: Send Safely -100,000 E-Mails $10.00
Message-ID: <200207311841.NAA18143@einstein.ssz.com>


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From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Jul 31 13:41:21 2002
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:41:21 -0700
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207311051530.9892-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org
  >
References: <3D46FC4C.7060.2D7F8E7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D47E901.17471.FFA3B6@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > The plan, already implemented, is to flood file sharing
> > systems with bogus files or broken files.  The solution, not
> > yet implemented, is to attach digital signatures to files, and
> > have the file sharing software recognize certain signatures as
> > good or bad.

Eugen Leitl
> This is completely unnecessary if you address the document with
> a cryptohash.  An URI like 
> http://localhost:4711/f70539bb32961f3d7dba42a9c51442c1218a9100
> can only adress a particular document.

And then the hollywood hackers flood the system with bogus
descriptions of the content identified by the crypto hashes.

We still need to implement a reputation system against a hollywood
hacker attack, even if we address content by cryptohash, as indeed
we should. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     MZ8I0lLVaSkDBqA1K8OWTh4DR9ESyzcVVpf1x4pT
     259CijIJardotArHx0YBUaCUfOceX+5jOYxtQ+fXi




From remailer at xganon.com  Wed Jul 31 13:47:20 2002
From: remailer at xganon.com (xganon)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:47:20 -0500
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
Message-ID: <539ba77b4e4b738a0e8df2b96c72ae6f@xganon.com>


On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:10:26 +0100, you wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 04:51  am, James A. Donald wrote:
> On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote:
> both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict
> what applications you run.  The TPM FAQ at
> http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads
> ....
>
> They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability.
>
> And all kitchen knives are murder weapons.

TCPA and Palladium can be forced to restrict 90%+ of all applications at the whim of Bill Gates, 
or the United States government.

Kitchen knives, on the other hand, are under non-uniform and widely-distributed, uncoordinated 
control. Even Bill Gates and the United States government acting in concert cannot make all knives 
become murder weapons, nor make all knives become non-murder weapons.
~~




From cripto at ecn.org  Wed Jul 31 06:49:09 2002
From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:49:09 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
Message-ID: <8d94fd13ad3927e1ffe95293727b1cc6@ecn.org>


On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:24 -0700, you wrote:
> When we approve a file, all the people who approved it already get
> added to our trust list, thus helping us select files, and we are
> told that so and so got added to our list of people who recommend
> good files.  This gives people an incentive to rate files, since
> rating files gives them the ability to take advantage of other
> people's ratings.
>
> If onr discommendd a file, those who discommend it are added to
> our trust list, and those who commended it to our distrust list.
> If, as will frequently happen, there is a conflict, we are told
> that so and so commended so many files we like, and so many files
> we dislike, so how should future commendations and
> discommendations from him be handled.

Such an approach suffers from the "bad guy" occasionally signing a good file, thus placing himself 
on the trusted signer list.

A better approach is for the downloader to create his own trusted list, along the lines of PGP web 
of trust. Ideal for exactly this application. The downloader can add and subtract from the trusted 
signer list at will, with no central control. Since one must expect some trusted signers to get 
busted and move to the dark side under court order, such downloader control is necessary.

Problematic is that mp3 and other compression processes do not generate bit-identical files. Two 
perfect mp3 files may have different md5 hashes, for example. A tool for making bit-identical mp3 
files from the same digital input is needed, so that a single signed hash can verify the same file 
from multiple origins.




From nicko at ncipher.com  Wed Jul 31 08:10:26 2002
From: nicko at ncipher.com (Nicko van Someren)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:10:26 +0100
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
In-Reply-To: <3D46FC4C.1146.2D7F8BE@localhost>
Message-ID: <A4A2736E-A497-11D6-8D06-003065D619E2@ncipher.com>


On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 04:51  am, James A. Donald wrote:
> On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote:
>> both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict
>> what applications you run.  The TPM FAQ at
>> http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads
>> ....
>
> They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability.

And all kitchen knives are murder weapons.




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 07:25:30 2002
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:25:30 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
In-Reply-To: <8d94fd13ad3927e1ffe95293727b1cc6@ecn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207311603400.15129-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org>


On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Anonymous wrote:

> Such an approach suffers from the "bad guy" occasionally signing a
> good file, thus placing himself on the trusted signer list.

This assumes a boolean trust metric. What you need is a trust scalar, and
a mechanism to prevent Malory poisoning it. It should use scarce resources
(e.g. crunch) to generate a trust currency in each node, a kind of
decentralized mint (nothing crunches quite a few million boxes on the
Net). Clearly there will be some inflation, as systems tend to get faster
these days. The algorithm should resist FPGAzation, too (Mallory is
inventive).
 
> A better approach is for the downloader to create his own trusted
> list, along the lines of PGP web of trust. Ideal for exactly this

The infrastructure needs to be hidden out of view. If you query the net
for a specific document, those signed by most trusted parties should come
up first. And when you download and sample a document the GUI should offer
positive/negative karma buttons for easy grading.

> application. The downloader can add and subtract from the trusted
> signer list at will, with no central control. Since one must expect
> some trusted signers to get busted and move to the dark side under
> court order, such downloader control is necessary.
> 
> Problematic is that mp3 and other compression processes do not
> generate bit-identical files. Two perfect mp3 files may have different
> md5 hashes, for example. A tool for making bit-identical mp3 files

Doesn't matter, as long a single good copy gets out & gets amplified.
Plus, you can get different cryptohash URIs for minor variations on 
content, as long they're published by somebody trusted.

> from the same digital input is needed, so that a single signed hash
> can verify the same file from multiple origins.




From scribe at exmosis.net  Wed Jul 31 08:26:32 2002
From: scribe at exmosis.net (Graham Lally)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:26:32 +0100
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
References: <8d94fd13ad3927e1ffe95293727b1cc6@ecn.org>
Message-ID: <3D4801A8.8050901@exmosis.net>


Anonymous wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:24 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>>When we approve a file, all the people who approved it already get
>>added to our trust list, thus helping us select files, and we are
>>told that so and so got added to our list of people who recommend
>>good files.  This gives people an incentive to rate files, since
>>rating files gives them the ability to take advantage of other
>>people's ratings.

[...]

> A better approach is for the downloader to create his own trusted list, along the lines of PGP web 
> of trust. Ideal for exactly this application. The downloader can add and subtract from the trusted 
> signer list at will, with no central control. Since one must expect some trusted signers to get 
> busted and move to the dark side under court order, such downloader control is necessary.

One practical method that has been, and still remains popular it seems, is a 
trusted hub approach. DirectConnect, as a more recent example, allows anyone to 
set up a central hub, and then filter the people connecting to it (e.g. by 
amount of files shared, or by personal acquaintance), in a very "localised" 
peer-2-peer group. This is the same tactic adopted by pre-Napster set-ups such 
as IRC channels, et al.

The obvious downside is immediate choice. Obscurity is naturally exaggerated in 
comparison to a completely open network. However, smaller groups tend to 
encourage increased validity of files being offered, especially when only a 
small number of those people are offering it.

This obscurity can be countered in a number of ways - chained networking, in 
that one person can be in many groups and thus has access to a wider range, 
coupled with an anonymous request/barter-driven facility would decrease 
obscurity without losing much of the validity implicit in trusted groups. 
History suggests that even in such fragmented environments, content can travel 
to as many people in as short a time as an open network.

Under this scenario, the opportunities to spread false files are much more 
limited, as their scope from origin would be more contained, probably averaging 
2 or 3 interlinked groups at most.

Not perfect, clearly. But it does seem to be the surviving philosophy.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Jul 31 15:53:00 2002
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:53:00 -0600
Subject: Pizza with a credit card
Message-ID: <3D486A4C.EB85CBCF@lsil.com>


> > One useful piece of advice:
> > 
> > Don't but pizza with a credit card:
> > SNIP
> > 
> > Course all those terrorists buying their pizzas with cash get away clean.
> 
> 
> I've wondered for years how much longer this
> will be allowed. Cash is still viable. Not
> as viable as it was 10, or even 5 years ago.
> I am still able to travel with only cash, buy
> a pizza with only cash, or other food, still
> buy groceries without having to produce mein
> ausweiss (why I stopped shopping at CostCo
> years back). But it is all getting stickier.
>
Quite clearly cash has got to go! I'm not sure how tough this would be
to sneak past the slumbering electorate. Pretty tough I expect. But the
usage level is certainly going down while the percentage of electronic
transactions is skyrocketing. We've even had concresscritters suggesting
that the transport of $10K !interstate! should be illegal. I think this
came up when the most recent international transport rule changes were
made. It's getting more wierd every week now. An adjustment in the other
direction will come along soon - I hope but doubt.




From adpcwiii at msn.com  Wed Jul 31 15:51:20 2002
From: adpcwiii at msn.com (adpcwiii at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:51:20 -0500
Subject: insider report / beating low hormones!                1
Message-ID: <200207312251.g6VMpJvL001716@ak47.algebra.com>

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From info at clrea.com  Wed Jul 31 18:20:34 2002
From: info at clrea.com (info at clrea.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:20:34 -0700
Subject: ADV: buyers sellers agents loans
Message-ID: <W2KWEB14BvRnfvcySa400001eaf@w2kweb1.gosecurenet.com>

 	
 

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<http://www.clrea.com/market/autooptout.cfm?address=cypherpunks at minder.n
et&campaign=57>  

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From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Jul 31 19:09:49 2002
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A.Melon)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:09:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hollywood Hackers
Message-ID: <810d9c7d6500f30c04400cbc44465dda@melontraffickers.com>


Jack Lloyd wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> Looks amazingly familiar.  Could it be, could be, could it be.... Mojo
>> Nation (now MNet http://mnet.sourceforge.net )?
>
>Or OpenCM (http://www.opencm.org)
>  -Jack


On the OpenCM webpage, it proclaims on the right hand side:

    OpenCM is designed as a secure, high-integrity replacement for CVS. 

    Briefly, OpenCM provides ... 
		cryptographic authentication and access control,...
   
	The OpenCM project was originally started because we needed a 
	secure, high-integrity configuration management system 

and on the left hand side of the page it says:

	At the moment, we do not support non-Javascript browsers.


If they are concerned about security, Shouldn't they be avoiding
javascript?




From zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk  Wed Jul 31 12:07:16 2002
From: zenadsl6186 at zen.co.uk (Peter Fairbrother)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:07:16 +0100
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
In-Reply-To: <5eb418a910881276a731edab4bb13b00@aarg.net>
Message-ID: <B96DF3F3.22A3E%zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk>

> AARG! Anonymous wrote:

> James Donald wrote:
>> On 29 Jul 2002 at 15:35, AARG! Anonymous wrote:
>>> both Palladium and TCPA deny that they are designed to restrict
>>> what applications you run.  The TPM FAQ at
>>> http://www.trustedcomputing.org/docs/TPM_QA_071802.pdf reads
>> 
>> They deny that intent, but physically they have that capability.
> 
> Maybe, but the point is whether the architectural spec includes that
> capability.  After all, any OS could restrict what applications you
> run; you don't need special hardware for that.  The question is whether
> restrictions on software are part of the design spec.  You should be
> able to point to something in the TCPA spec that would restrict or limit
> software, if that is the case.
> 
> Or do you think that when David Wagner said, "Both Palladium and TCPA
> incorporate features that would restrict what applications you could run,"
> he meant "that *could* restrict what applications you run"?  They *could*
> impose restrictions, just like any OS could impose restrictions.
> 
> But to say that they *would* impose restrictions is a stronger
> statement, don't you think?  If you claim that an architecture would
> impose restrictions, shouldn't you be able to point to somewhere in the
> design document where it explains how this would occur?
> 
> There's enormous amount of information in the TCPA spec about how to
> measure the code which is going to be run, and to report those measurement
> results so third parties can know what code is running.  But there's not
> one word about preventing software from running based on the measurements.
> 

The wise general will plan his defences according to his opponent's
capabilities, not according to his opponent's avowed intentions.

However, in this case the intention to attack with all available weapons has
not been well hidden. There may be some dupes who honestly profess that no
attack is planned, and some naif's who cannot or will not see the wood, but
they will reap the whirlwind.

My humble opinion,

-- Peter Fairbrother


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Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From eresrch at eskimo.com  Wed Jul 31 20:42:21 2002
From: eresrch at eskimo.com (Mike Rosing)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:42:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pizza with a credit card
In-Reply-To: <3D486A4C.EB85CBCF@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0207312037320.19056-100000@eskimo.com>


On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Michael Motyka wrote:

> Quite clearly cash has got to go! I'm not sure how tough this would be
> to sneak past the slumbering electorate. Pretty tough I expect. But the
> usage level is certainly going down while the percentage of electronic
> transactions is skyrocketing. We've even had concresscritters suggesting
> that the transport of $10K !interstate! should be illegal. I think this
> came up when the most recent international transport rule changes were
> made. It's getting more wierd every week now. An adjustment in the other
> direction will come along soon - I hope but doubt.

I'm willing to bet that ATM machines are more wide spread and distribute
more cash now than ever before.  Anybody got real numbers for the past
few years?  A lot of those "electronic transactions" are cash advances on
credit cards.  How much cash is exchanged every day?  It must be in the
billions.  Yes, there are a lot of electronic transactions moving lots of
money.  But cash is still far more important to most people.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




From adam at cypherspace.org  Wed Jul 31 13:34:35 2002
From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:34:35 +0100
Subject: document popularity estimation / amortizable hashcash (Re:
  Hollywood Hackers)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207311603400.15129-100000@hydrogen.leitl.or
  g>; from eugen@leitl.org on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 04:25:30PM +0200
References: <8d94fd13ad3927e1ffe95293727b1cc6@ecn.org>
  <Pine.LNX.4.33.0207311603400.15129-100000@hydrogen.leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20020731213435.A346258@exeter.ac.uk>


I proposed a construct which could be used for this application:
called "amortizable hashcash".

	http://www.cypherspace.org/hashcash/amortizable.pdf

The application I had in mind was also file sharing.  (This was
sometime in Mar 2000).  I described this problem as the "disitrbuted
document popularity estimation" problem.  The other aspect of the
problem is you have to distribute the popularity estimate and make it
accessible, so I think you want it to be workably compact (you don't
want to ship around 1 million hash collisions on the document hash).
Amortizable hashcash addresses this problem.

There is also some discussion of it here:

	http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/crypto/2000-q1/0440.html

Adam

On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 04:25:30PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> It should use scarce resources (e.g. crunch) to generate a trust
> currency in each node, a kind of decentralized mint (nothing
> crunches quite a few million boxes on the Net).




From groupstcknws101 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 31 22:18:31 2002
From: groupstcknws101 at yahoo.com (groupstcknws101 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:18:31 -0600
Subject: OTCBB: GTWY Acquisition Strategy      ADV
Message-ID: <7TNQ8R25XK.SPK29J63C.groupstcknws101@yahoo.com>

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From bestcdh at hanmir.com  Wed Jul 31 07:22:46 2002
From: bestcdh at hanmir.com (����������)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:22:46 +0900
Subject: ��ȯ�ڿ��� �ʿ��� ����[����������]
Message-ID: <200207311435.JAA12782@einstein.ssz.com>

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From remailer at aarg.net  Wed Jul 31 23:25:17 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:25:17 -0700
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
Message-ID: <79995a6075dafa6c5dcb782b521aac1f@aarg.net>


James Donald writes:
> TCPA and Palladium give someone else super root privileges on my
> machine, and TAKE THOSE PRIVILEGES AWAY FROM ME.  All claims that
> they will not do this are not claims that they will not do this,
> but are merely claims that the possessor of super root privilege
> on my machine is going to be a very very nice guy, unlike my
> wickedly piratical and incompetently trojan horse running self.

What would be an example of a privilege that you fear would be taken
away from you with TCPA?  It will boot any software that you want, and
can provide a signed attestation of a hash of what you booted.  Are you
upset because you can't force the chip to lie about what you booted?
Of course they could have designed the chip to allow you to do that, but
then the functionality would be useless to everyone; a chip which could
be made to lie about its measurements might as well not exist, right?




From NAVMSE-EXCFRM01 at farms.com  Wed Jul 31 20:27:35 2002
From: NAVMSE-EXCFRM01 at farms.com (NAV for Microsoft Exchange-EXCFRM01)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:27:35 -0400
Subject: Norton AntiVirus detected and quarantined a virus in a message yo
	u sent.
Message-ID: <9844900767D52E4B85BB404A1EC96EBB1952F3@excfrm01.farms.net>

Recipient of the infected attachment:  Todd Crowe\Inbox
Subject of the message:  A  funny game
One or more attachments were quarantined.
  Attachment play.exe was Quarantined for the following reasons:
    Virus W32.Klez.H at mm was found.
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From remailer at aarg.net  Wed Jul 31 23:45:35 2002
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:45:35 -0700
Subject: Challenge to David Wagner on TCPA
Message-ID: <a019a1430266689f90073a6c9f93aafb@aarg.net>


Peter Trei writes:
> AARG!, our anonymous Pangloss, is strictly correct - Wagner should have
> said "could" rather than "would".

So TCPA and Palladium "could" restrict which software you could run.
They aren't designed to do so, but the design could be changed and
restrictions added.

But you could make the same charge about any software!  The Mac OS could
be changed to restrict what software you can run.  Does that mean that
we should all stop using Macs, and attack them for something that they
are not doing and haven't said they would do?

The point is, we should look critically at proposals like TCPA and
Palladium, but our criticisms should be based in fact and not fantasy.
Saying that they could do something or they might do something is a much
weaker argument than saying that they will have certain bad effects.
The point of the current discussion is to improve the quality of the
criticism which has been directed at these proposals.  Raising a bunch
of red herrings is not only a shameful and dishonest way to conduct the
dispute, it could backfire if people come to realize that the system
does not actually behave as the critics have claimed.

Peter Fairbrother made a similar point:

> The wise general will plan his defences according to his opponent's
> capabilities, not according to his opponent's avowed intentions.

Fine, but note that at least TCPA as currently designed does not have this
specific capability of keeping some software from booting and running.
Granted, the system could be changed to allow only certain kinds of
software to boot, just as similar changes could be made to any OS or
boot loader in existence.

Back to Peter Trei (and again, Peter Fairbrother echoed his concern):

> However, TCPA and Palladium fall into a class of technologies with a
> tremendous potential for abuse. Since the trust model is directed against
> the computer's owner (he can't sign code as trusted, or reliably control 
> which signing keys are trusted), he has ceded ultimate control of what 
> he can and can't do with his computer to another. 

Under TCPA, he can do everything with his computer that he can do today,
even if the system is not turned off.  What he can't do is to use the
new TCPA features, like attestation or sealed storage, in such a way as
to violate the security design of those systems (assuming of course that
the design is sound and well implemented).  This is no more a matter of
turning over control of his computer than is using an X.509 certificate
issued by a CA to prove his identity.  He can't violate the security of
the X.509 cert.  He isn't forced to use it, but if he does, he can't
forge a different identity.  This is analogous to how the attestation
features of TCPA works.  He doesn't have to use it, but if he wants to
prove what software he booted, he doesn't have the ability to forge the
data and lie about it.

> Sure, TCPA can be switched off - until that switch is disabled. It 
> could potentially be permenantly disabled by a BIOS update, a 
> security patch, a commercial program which carries signed 
> disabling code as a Trojan, or over the net through a backdoor or 
> vulnerability in any networked software. Or by Congress 
> which could make running a TCPA capable machine with TCPA 
> turned off illegal.

This is why the original "Challenge" asked for specific features in the
TCPA spec which could provide this claimed functionality.  Even if TCPA
is somehow kept turned on, it will not stop any software from booting.

Now, you might say that they can then further change the TCPA so that
it *does* stop uncertified software from booting.  Sure, they could.
But you know what?  They could do that without the TCPA hardware.
They could put in a BIOS that had a cert in it and only signed OS's could
boot.  That's not what TCPA does, and it's nothing like how it works.
A system like this would be a very restricted machine and you might
justifiably complain if the manufacturer tried to make you buy one.
But why criticize TCPA for this very different functionality, which
doesn't use the TCPA hardware, the TCPA design, and the TCPA API?

> With TCPA, I now have to trust that a powerful third party, over
> which I have no control, and which does not necessarily have
> my interests are heart, will not abuse it's power. I don't
> want to have to do that.

How could this be true, when there are no features in the TCPA design
to allow this powerful third party to restrict your use of your computer
in any way?

(By the way, does anyone know why these messages are appearing on
cypherpunks but not on the cryptography at wasabisystems.com mailing list,
when the responses to them show up in both places?  Does the moderator of
the cryptography list object to anonymous messages?  Or does he think the
quality of them is so bad that they don't deserve to appear?  Or perhaps
it is a technical problem, that the anonymous email can't be delivered
to his address?  If someone replies to this message, please include this
final paragraph in the quoted portion of your reply, so that the moderator
will perhaps be prompted to explain what is going wrong.  Thanks.)




From brunoojie at dpr-nig.com  Wed Jul 31 16:42:30 2002
From: brunoojie at dpr-nig.com (MR BRUNO OJIE)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 00:42:30 +0100
Subject: JOINT VENTURE
Message-ID: <200207312353.SAA26384@einstein.ssz.com>



DEPARTMENT OF PETROLEUM RESOURCES 
PLOT 225 KOFO ABAYOMI STREET VICTORIA ISLAND,LAGOS, NIGERIA.
DIRECT FAX: 234 1 759 0904. TEL; 234 1- 7591519
ATTENTION: THE PRESIDENT/C.E.O
RE: URGENT & CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL
Dear Sir,

I am MR BRUNO OJIE member committee of the above department
Terms of Reference
My term of reference involves the award of contracts to multinational companies.
My office is saddled with the responsibility of contract award, screening, categorization and prioritization of projects embarked upon by Department of Petroleum Resources (DPR) as well as feasibility studies for selected projects and supervising the project consultants involved. A breakdown of the fiscal expenditure by this office as at the end of last fiscal quarter of 2000 indicates that DPR paid out a whooping sum of US$736M(Seven Hundred And Thirty Six Million, United States Dollars) to successful contract beneficiaries. The DPR is now compiling beneficiaries to be paid for the third Quarter of 2002.
The crux of this letter is that the finance/contract department of the DPR deliberately over �invoiced the contract value of the various contracts awarded. In the course of disbursements, this department has been able to accumulate the sum of US$38.2M(Thirty-eight Million, two hundred Thousand U.S Dollars) as the over-invoiced sum. This money is currently in a suspense account of the DPR account with the Debt Reconciliation Committee (DRC). We now seek to process the transfer of this fund officially as contract payment to you as a foreign contractor, who will be fronting for us as the beneficiary of the fund. In this way we can facilitate these funds into your nominated account for possible investment abroad. We are not allowed as a matter of government policy to operate any foreign account to transfer this fund into.
However, for your involvement in assisting us with this transfer into your nominated account we have evolved a sharing formula as follows:
(1) 20% for you as the foreign partner
(2) 75% for I and my colleagues

(3) 5% will be set aside to defray all incidental expenses both Locally and Internationally during the course of this transaction.
We shall be relying on your advice as regard investment of our share in any business in your country. Be informed that this business is genuine and 100% safe considering the high-power government officials involved. Send your private fax/telephone numbers. Upon your response we shall provide you with further information on the procedures. Feel free to send response by Fax: 234-1-7590904 / TEL: 234-1-7591519 expecting your response urgently. All enquiries should be directed to the undersigned by FAX OR PHONE.
Looking forward to a good business relationship with you.
Sincerely,

MR BRUNO OJIE





From brunoojie at dpr-nig.com  Wed Jul 31 16:56:59 2002
From: brunoojie at dpr-nig.com (MR BRUNO OJIE)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 00:56:59 +0100
Subject: JOINT VENTURE
Message-ID: <GIGANTICUARGo3ZHkfv0000028d@levee.minder.net>



DEPARTMENT OF PETROLEUM RESOURCES 
PLOT 225 KOFO ABAYOMI STREET VICTORIA ISLAND,LAGOS, NIGERIA.
DIRECT FAX: 234 1 759 0904. TEL; 234 1- 7591519
ATTENTION: THE PRESIDENT/C.E.O
RE: URGENT & CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL
Dear Sir,

I am MR BRUNO OJIE member committee of the above department
Terms of Reference
My term of reference involves the award of contracts to multinational companies.
My office is saddled with the responsibility of contract award, screening, categorization and prioritization of projects embarked upon by Department of Petroleum Resources (DPR) as well as feasibility studies for selected projects and supervising the project consultants involved. A breakdown of the fiscal expenditure by this office as at the end of last fiscal quarter of 2000 indicates that DPR paid out a whooping sum of US$736M(Seven Hundred And Thirty Six Million, United States Dollars) to successful contract beneficiaries. The DPR is now compiling beneficiaries to be paid for the third Quarter of 2002.
The crux of this letter is that the finance/contract department of the DPR deliberately over �invoiced the contract value of the various contracts awarded. In the course of disbursements, this department has been able to accumulate the sum of US$38.2M(Thirty-eight Million, two hundred Thousand U.S Dollars) as the over-invoiced sum. This money is currently in a suspense account of the DPR account with the Debt Reconciliation Committee (DRC). We now seek to process the transfer of this fund officially as contract payment to you as a foreign contractor, who will be fronting for us as the beneficiary of the fund. In this way we can facilitate these funds into your nominated account for possible investment abroad. We are not allowed as a matter of government policy to operate any foreign account to transfer this fund into.
However, for your involvement in assisting us with this transfer into your nominated account we have evolved a sharing formula as follows:
(1) 20% for you as the foreign partner
(2) 75% for I and my colleagues

(3) 5% will be set aside to defray all incidental expenses both Locally and Internationally during the course of this transaction.
We shall be relying on your advice as regard investment of our share in any business in your country. Be informed that this business is genuine and 100% safe considering the high-power government officials involved. Send your private fax/telephone numbers. Upon your response we shall provide you with further information on the procedures. Feel free to send response by Fax: 234-1-7590904 / TEL: 234-1-7591519 expecting your response urgently. All enquiries should be directed to the undersigned by FAX OR PHONE.
Looking forward to a good business relationship with you.
Sincerely,

MR BRUNO OJIE





From brunoojie at dpr-nig.com  Wed Jul 31 17:58:45 2002
From: brunoojie at dpr-nig.com (MR BRUNO OJIE)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:58:45 +0100
Subject: JOINT VENTURE
Message-ID: <200208010109.UAA28437@einstein.ssz.com>



DEPARTMENT OF PETROLEUM RESOURCES 
PLOT 225 KOFO ABAYOMI STREET VICTORIA ISLAND,LAGOS, NIGERIA.
DIRECT FAX: 234 1 759 0904. TEL; 234 1- 7591519
ATTENTION: THE PRESIDENT/C.E.O
RE: URGENT & CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL
Dear Sir,

I am MR BRUNO OJIE member committee of the above department
Terms of Reference
My term of reference involves the award of contracts to multinational companies.
My office is saddled with the responsibility of contract award, screening, categorization and prioritization of projects embarked upon by Department of Petroleum Resources (DPR) as well as feasibility studies for selected projects and supervising the project consultants involved. A breakdown of the fiscal expenditure by this office as at the end of last fiscal quarter of 2000 indicates that DPR paid out a whooping sum of US$736M(Seven Hundred And Thirty Six Million, United States Dollars) to successful contract beneficiaries. The DPR is now compiling beneficiaries to be paid for the third Quarter of 2002.
The crux of this letter is that the finance/contract department of the DPR deliberately over �invoiced the contract value of the various contracts awarded. In the course of disbursements, this department has been able to accumulate the sum of US$38.2M(Thirty-eight Million, two hundred Thousand U.S Dollars) as the over-invoiced sum. This money is currently in a suspense account of the DPR account with the Debt Reconciliation Committee (DRC). We now seek to process the transfer of this fund officially as contract payment to you as a foreign contractor, who will be fronting for us as the beneficiary of the fund. In this way we can facilitate these funds into your nominated account for possible investment abroad. We are not allowed as a matter of government policy to operate any foreign account to transfer this fund into.
However, for your involvement in assisting us with this transfer into your nominated account we have evolved a sharing formula as follows:
(1) 20% for you as the foreign partner
(2) 75% for I and my colleagues

(3) 5% will be set aside to defray all incidental expenses both Locally and Internationally during the course of this transaction.
We shall be relying on your advice as regard investment of our share in any business in your country. Be informed that this business is genuine and 100% safe considering the high-power government officials involved. Send your private fax/telephone numbers. Upon your response we shall provide you with further information on the procedures. Feel free to send response by Fax: 234-1-7590904 / TEL: 234-1-7591519 expecting your response urgently. All enquiries should be directed to the undersigned by FAX OR PHONE.
Looking forward to a good business relationship with you.
Sincerely,

MR BRUNO OJIE





From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Jul 31 23:18:32 2002
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:18:32 -0400
Subject: A Q&A exchange between me and Eugene Volokh
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020731085826.04c52d70@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020731085826.04c52d70@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <p05111a16b96e825d6fea@[66.149.49.6]>


At 8:59 AM -0700 on 7/31/02, Steve Schear wrote:


> If I have nothing to hide, nobody wants to know.
>
> steve

Ding! I think we have a winner, boys and girls...

Steve Schear, welcome to my .sig file...

:-).

Cheers,
RAH
viz,
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah at ibuc.com>
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
If I have nothing to hide, nobody wants to know. -- Steve Schear