From vcomic at speed.sender.com Sat Dec 1 02:11:24 2001 From: vcomic at speed.sender.com (vcomic at speed.sender.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 02:11:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Цʱ 12-3 Message-ID: <200112011011.CAA26106@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 19509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at optymalni.com Sat Dec 1 02:30:28 2001 From: adam at optymalni.com (Adam: Kurzawa) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 05:30:28 -0500 Subject: 256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File Storage Message-ID: <000401c17a53$321cff80$5a01a8c0@adam> Hey, I don't know how many of you have seen this? But here it is anyway, what do you guys think? CryptoHeaven is a new, secure online service released by CryptoHeaven Development Team. The product is intended for individuals in need of security and privacy working together in small groups. CryptoHeaven is the only secure online system currently integrating secure email, secure instant messaging (with multi party support), secure online file storage & file sharing in one unique package. Our services are available over the internet from anywhere, anytime. Automatic key and contact management ensures you can use your account from any computer connected to the internet. An easy to use, integrated user interface capable of running on most current computers ensures that all services are always available, regardless of where you may be. Your privacy is at all times protected with the highest level cryptography available: 256 bit symmetric key and 2048-4096 bit asymmetric keys. The level of security offered is unmatched in the industry. Free and premium accounts are available. Take it for a test drive and invite your friends to try it too. CryptoHeaven is confident in its system, and as such we release the source code to any interested party for a review, free of charge. http://www.cryptoheaven.com From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sat Dec 1 08:18:45 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:18:45 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org> References: <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost> Message-ID: <3C089265.4281.4F715C7@localhost> On 30 Nov 2001, at 22:05, Petro wrote: > On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 07:53 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net > wrote: > > Even this is not a scalar. Since reputation cannot be bought > > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is > > false. > > What makes you think a reputation cannot be bought and sold? > > Ever hear of Public Relations firms? Politicians? > > Both are in the business of buying and selling reputations. > Not exactly. You can pay a PR firm to try and help improve your reputation, but that's not the same thing a reputation pre-assembled and gift wrapped. Most likely they'll just tell you to wear more earth tones, which won't actually help. I'm surprised I've gotten so much disagreement over this, particularly since my original statement was much weaker than it could have been. For reputation to have a single well defined value it is necessary but not sufficient that there be a market in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED market. think that can happen? Reputation is essentially a kind of credential. If I've got a piece of paper that says I can speak Navajo (hypthetical, I can't really) and I sell that piece of paper, I won't lose the ability to speak Navajo, nor will the purchaser gain it. A market in such pieces of paper would be self-destructive, since knowledge that such papers are commonly bought and sold would quickly make the papers themselves worthless. George > -- > "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are > half-wits."--Chris Klein From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 1 08:20:05 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:20:05 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | .museum TLDs are Live Message-ID: <3C090335.7534C261@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/01/136206.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 1 08:31:26 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:31:26 -0600 Subject: Democrats Want Nuke Plant Guards to Be Federal Workers Message-ID: <3C0905DE.A7F18F18@ssz.com> Congress should create a real federal 'militia' as directed by the Constitution, then problems like this would be moot. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011129/pl/attack_nuclear_dc_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attack_nuclear_dc_1.html Type: text/html Size: 7773 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 1 08:42:49 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:42:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201195553.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, mattd wrote: That's the first thing you have ever written that was genuinely worth reading! Keep practicing, and in three or four hundred years you could be the "GreatGreatReallyGreatGrandsonOfGomez(tM)". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Dec 1 07:58:07 2001 From: declan at well.com (declan at well.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:58:07 -0500 Subject: Jim Bell update: "AP" author moved to Lompoc federal prison Message-ID: <20011201105807.A29317@cluebot.com> Jim Bell photos: http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/photosearch.cgi?name=jim+bell Day-by-day articles on Jim Bell's trial: http://www.cluebot.com/search.pl?topic=ap-politics --- http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48779,00.html One of the Internet's most famous essayists is now in the same prison that once housed the most famous hacker. Jim Bell, the author of Assassination Politics, has been moved to the Lompoc ("lahm-poke"), California federal prison. It's the same place that convicted cracker Kevin Mitnick once called home. "I'm assigned out in the rec yard, the recreation yard, but there's really not much work to be done, occasionally picking up a cigarette butt or two," says Bell, who was sentenced to 10 years in prison this year for allegedly stalking federal agents. Bell says he was trying to investigate government wrongdoing. Bell describes Lompoc, located between Los Angeles and San Francisco, as "old and decrepit, and the place is corrupt and the guards are lazy." Previously, Bell was being held at the SeaTac prison near Tacoma, Washington, where his trial took place. Since he's got some time to kill, Bell has busied himself by filing civil lawsuits against people he alleges were involved in an orchestrated plot to deny him a fair trial and an unbiased, court-appointed defense counsel. So far he's targeted two judges, at least two prosecutors, and his former probation officers and defense attorneys. Bell says he hasn't had any response yet -- and is going to try to obtain a default judgment against the defendants. "I continue to remain astonished that I haven't received any answer out of my lawsuit yet. It doesn't bother me as long as I collect the money. I think I've hit a nerve." He's looking forward to "garnishment and putting liens on various people's property. If they wanted to write me a check, I'd take a check, I guess. But if they want me to go through the usual methods to collect it, I'll do that too." From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 1 11:50:15 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:50:15 -0800 Subject: fuel injected firearm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C08C3F7.5723.C71B2E@localhost> On 30 Nov 2001, at 11:04, Trei, Peter wrote: > 2. Liquid propellant guns (search on that term) are well > developed for artillary, but I don't know of any light > weapons which use this. LPGs are kind of neat in > howitzer type applications because (1) A tank of > propellant & a rack of projectiles takes less space > than cased solid propellant shells, so you can carry > more ammo, and (2) you can vary the propellant > from shot to shot based on emergent conditions. One > neat hack is 'time on target' in which a series of rounds > are fired in quick succession, at different elevations and > propellant load so they all arrive at the target simultaneously. > (the LPG liquid propellant does not need an added oxidizer). So far, liquid propellant guns have been far more dangerous to those firing them than to those they have been fired at. 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Plus, we supply money off coupons at lodging and other, places, because we've arranged for special treatment for you as a PathsTaken traveler. Receive future email on adventure, golf, sight-seeing, beach, dude ranch, white-water rafting and other vacation ideas from PathsTaken.com . Visit Us Today at PathsTaken.com . This E-mailing has been sent to you as a person interested in the information enclosed. If this reached you by error, or you do not wish to receive this information or type of information in the future, please click on the word REMOVE , then send and you will be taken off our list immediately. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience. This E-mail is not SPAM under the Federal Regulatory laws of the United States. This message is being sent to you in compliance with the proposed Federal Legislation for commercial e-mail (H.R.4176-SECTION 101 PARAGRAPH (e) (1) (A)) and Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress. This message is not intended for residents of WA, NV, CA, & VA. Screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. If you are a California, Nevada, Washington, or Virginia resident please follow the instructions above and you will be permanently removed from our list immediately. From ryan at bigrich.com Sat Dec 1 14:25:24 2001 From: ryan at bigrich.com (Ryan Bagwell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:25:24 -1000 (HST) Subject: E-Mail Conformation Notice Message-ID: <200112012225.MAA03609@server.cash5.com> You or some one has siggned this e-mail address up to Recieve product and Anouncement notices Please Reply here to Confirm on follow link an the bottm to unsucribe mailto:ryan at bigrich.com http://www.e-paydayloanonline.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To be removed from this mailing list click on the link below http://www.e-paydayloanonline.com/cgi-bin/mail.cgi?cypherpunks at toad.com From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 1 12:56:43 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:56:43 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C089265.4281.4F715C7@localhost> References: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org> Message-ID: <3C08D38B.10329.103F322@localhost> -- On 1 Dec 2001, at 8:18, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > I'm surprised I've gotten so much disagreement over this, > particularly since my original statement was much weaker > than it could have been. For reputation to have a single > well defined value it is necessary but not sufficient that > there be a market in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED > market. Not so. Something has a single well defined value to its possessor without any need for it to be commoditized. For an item to have a single well defined market value it needs to be commoditized, but that is a different issue. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG U5GMQeSNlQCQl5JIYhGl4zYPDycgMVdHUxmfk+l2 4S5Ss0+J1kdE7tCI/aRLeU8oLqXOwYgyIK3jX5qqJ From adam at homeport.org Sat Dec 1 10:19:04 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:19:04 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org> Right. Now the seller has the cash, and the buyer has nothing. The seller has lost only the future value of the nym, which was presumably accounted for in the price. The seller loses no "real" reputation, because the nym can't be tied back to the is-a-person seller. The buyer, meanwhile, is out the price of the nym, and must either destroy the nym in order to ensure that the seller actually loses all that value, or accept damaged goods. So, why would a buyer agree to such a transaction, where he will remain at the mercy of the seller? Or is this 'one born every minute' economics? Adam On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 02:43:54PM -0500, Sunder wrote: | Following which the buyer posts all the signed emails between self and | seller detailing the fraudulent transaction. | | ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- | + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ | \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ | <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ | /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ | + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. | --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ | | On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: | | > Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate, | > and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message. | > | > Duh, indeed. | > | > Adam | > | > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:34:53PM -0500, Sunder wrote: | > | Simple. Once the buyer has the keys she issues an email saying "I'm | > | changing my keys, here's the new public key" and signs it with the old key | > | - thus proving that the nym's original message was valid, thus | > | invalidating the old one. Duh! | > | | > | | > | ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- | > | + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ | > | \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ | > | <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ | > | /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ | > | + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. | > | --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ | > | | > | On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: | > | | > | > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Wei Dai wrote: | > | > | On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: | > | > | > Even this is not a scalar. Since reputation cannot be bought | > | > | > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is | > | > | > false. | > | > | | > | > | If you own a nym, you can easily sell its reputation. Just give the | > | > | private key to the buyer. | > | > | > | > How does the buyer ensure that I haven't kept a copy? If what I'm | > | > selling is a nym, then without the nym, I am anonymous. Adding layers | > | > of nymity for reputation with partial disclosure seems a complex and | > | > failure-prone approach. | > | > | > | > Adam | > | > | > | > -- | > | > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." | > | > -Hume | > | > -- | > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." | > -Hume | > | > | > -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sat Dec 1 13:40:13 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:40:13 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C08D38B.10329.103F322@localhost> References: <3C089265.4281.4F715C7@localhost> Message-ID: <3C08DDBD.32398.61D6795@localhost> On 1 Dec 2001, at 12:56, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- > On 1 Dec 2001, at 8:18, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > > I'm surprised I've gotten so much disagreement over this, > > particularly since my original statement was much weaker > > than it could have been. For reputation to have a single > > well defined value it is necessary but not sufficient that > > there be a market in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED > > market. > > Not so. > > Something has a single well defined value to its possessor > without any need for it to be commoditized. > > For an item to have a single well defined market value it > needs to be commoditized, but that is a different issue. > We're not disagreeing. By a "single" value I meant a universally agreed upon value. It's likely true that the owner of any item will have a single value that he thinks he'll be out if that item is destroyed (I can't see how there could be more than one), but unless the item is a commodity, nobody else will know for sure what that value is. George > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > U5GMQeSNlQCQl5JIYhGl4zYPDycgMVdHUxmfk+l2 > 4S5Ss0+J1kdE7tCI/aRLeU8oLqXOwYgyIK3jX5qqJ From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 1 13:46:36 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:46:36 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C08DDBD.32398.61D6795@localhost> Message-ID: On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 01:40 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 1 Dec 2001, at 12:56, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > >> -- >> On 1 Dec 2001, at 8:18, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >>> I'm surprised I've gotten so much disagreement over this, >>> particularly since my original statement was much weaker >>> than it could have been. For reputation to have a single >>> well defined value it is necessary but not sufficient that >>> there be a market in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED >>> market. >> >> Not so. >> >> Something has a single well defined value to its possessor >> without any need for it to be commoditized. >> >> For an item to have a single well defined market value it >> needs to be commoditized, but that is a different issue. >> > > We're not disagreeing. By a "single" value I meant a universally > agreed upon value. If there is a "universally agreed upon value" for something, and someone values it differently, is it still "universal"? Nope. What there may be are market-clearing prices, in various markets and at various times, but this has nothing to do with "universally agreed-upon values." --Tim May "The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat From wolf at priori.net Sat Dec 1 14:02:35 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:02:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: It's for the sake of the Chiiiiildren. Message-ID: http://www.banscrewdrivers.com "We hope that by ultimately banning the sale and use of screwdrivers, we can make the world a little bit safer, and increase compassion towards victims of screwdriver crimes and accidents." [...] -MW- From adam at homeport.org Sat Dec 1 11:05:36 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:05:36 -0500 Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011201140536.A27178@weathership.homeport.org> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:00:33PM -0500, Sunder wrote: | | Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400. Then | I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so | now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620. Interesting idea. I proposed something very similar in http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00313.html Raph demonstrated a bit later that the system could be forced into oscilation and had other problems, although that might have been in person, not on list. Adam -- Imminent death of the list predicted. Film already in the archives, 11/95. From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 14:10:16 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:10:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: <200111301950.OAA04548@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011201221016.64364.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> > Any relationship based on desperation or one partner's dysfunctional clingy > need is a complete waste of time. So if you seem to be spending a lot of time > around women who want to mash you down into a mold of some cartoonish happy- > ever-after "ideal", perhaps it's time to look at why you keep choosing and > ending up with them. If you were drawn to strong-willed independent women > instead, I can assure you that you'd be facing an entirely different spectrum > of dysfunctionality. ;) The cpunk relevance evades me, but ... The 'relationship' is a product of some need, and classifying that need as clingy or something else is arbitrary and subjective. You invent 'drawn' as something that is not-clingy-need. Semantic nonsense. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 1 14:16:51 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:16:51 -0800 Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists In-Reply-To: <200112012207.QAA04576@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <1ECDE1D5-E6A9-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 02:07 PM, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote: > Can you provide a URL or a source for the quote? > >> "The President announced today that journalists working against the >> interests of the people and filing false reports will be treated as >> terrorists and subject to severe punishment." >> >> a) President Bush of the U.S.A. >> >> b) President Mugabe of Zimbabwe. >> >> c) Both of them. >> >> >> --Tim May >> "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the >> government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. > Clinton >> Which one? --Tim May From freephotos at freeteentwat.com Sat Dec 1 06:53:59 2001 From: freephotos at freeteentwat.com (freephotos at freeteentwat.com) Date: 1 Dec 2001 14:53:59 -0000 Subject: Instant messages Message-ID: <6811b87b35eb$ca2064d0$432065d2@freeteentwat.com> Get a FREE PASSWORD To our premier teen hardcore website http://www.freeteentwat.com/g1/ here's how: 1. click here http://www.freeteentwat.com/g1/ 2. fill out 3 fields of statistical info 3. get your password 4. you pay nothing! It's 100% FREE It's that fucking easy! GET YOUR FREE PASSWORD NOW http://www.freeteentwat.com/g1/ If you want us to stop sending you email then click here: http://www.freeteentwat.com/db/ From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 1 11:59:04 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:59:04 -0500 Subject: Dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202061523.00a619b0@pop.useoz.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202061523.00a619b0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: At 6:17 AM +1100 on 12/2/01, mattd wrote: > US Office of Technology > Assessment OTA was killed by Gingrich almost as soon as it was possible for him to do so, say, 1992... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 1 12:30:09 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:30:09 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org> References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org> <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4797 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sat Dec 1 07:05:24 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:05:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: The P2P surveillance society approaches... (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:43:32 -0800 From: Jim Whitehead To: FoRK Subject: The P2P surveillance society approaches... http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~kostas/omni.html "The Page of Omnidirectional Vision" Bunch o'links to commercial and research work on omnidirectional vision systems, including novel cameras and software to stitch the images together. The FlyCam work at FujiXerox Palo Alto Labs (FXPal) is particularly interesting, since it is comparatively low cost, done mostly with off-the-shelf hardware. http://www.fxpal.com/smartspaces/flycam/flycam_home.htm Those of you who know about the Aspen Movie Map, a virtual reality tour of Aspen, Colorado performed in 1979 will find the FlyAbout work to be familiar: http://www.fxpal.com/smartspaces/FlyAbout/index.htm The big difference is that now this capability is possible using standard, stock equipment. Oh, and having GPS around is a big help too. How do we make the surveillance society from these pieces? Miniaturize the cameras and associated electronics, and have a large number of people wear one. So far, just like in David Brin's novel "Earth" . Everyone records omnidirectional images of their surroundings, and records the positions they were in. Now, combine this with Peer-to-Peer technology. Allow everyone to search everyone else's image banks, based on geographic information. This require shifting existing P2P technology from a music-based metadata schema to one that is geospatially based. The schemas already exist: . Key factors keeping us from the surveillance society: * the cameras are too heavy, and too expensive * disk space is still too expensive (for compact, portable memory) * wireless transmission rates are still too slow * wireless access is not yet ubiquitous But, I think you'll agree that none of these are fundamental limitations (i.e., fixing these does not require breaking physical laws). When will we start seeing the start of the peer-to-peer surveillance society? I give it 10 years, maybe less. - Jim http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From llib1120 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 14:14:05 2001 From: llib1120 at yahoo.com (-Email Leads=-) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:14:05 -0600 Subject: Responsive Email Lists Message-ID: <200112012224.QAA05164@einstein.ssz.com> ===================================== New Special~ FREE Stealth Mass Mailer with orders of 250,000! One Month FREE Subscription to 5-10 Blind mail servers/day M-F! (never lose your ISP again!) Completely hides your IP information! ===================================== - FRESH 10,000 List 11-27-01!! 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SEE SITE for more details and pricing! ----------------------------------------------- - SPECIALS! - ---------------------- **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 200,000 : - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:llib1120 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From wolf at priori.net Sat Dec 1 16:31:19 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:31:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: 256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File Storage In-Reply-To: <000401c17a53$321cff80$5a01a8c0@adam> Message-ID: Another proprietary key format. Why not base such a system on OpenPGP? Hmm. AES-256 with SHA-256? Children, what's wrong with the balance in this system? How does a user verify authenticity of another user's public key? Aside from being incompatible with anything else on the net, how is this different or more secure than Hushmail? Than Cryptomail.org? -MW- On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Adam: Kurzawa wrote: > Hey, I don't know how many of you have seen this? But here it is > anyway, what do you guys think? > > > CryptoHeaven is a new, secure online service released by CryptoHeaven > Development Team. The product is intended for individuals in need of > security and privacy working together in small groups. > > CryptoHeaven is the only secure online system currently integrating > secure email, secure instant messaging (with multi party support), > secure online file storage & file sharing in one unique package. > > Our services are available over the internet from anywhere, anytime. > Automatic key and contact management ensures you can use your account > from any computer connected to the internet. An easy to use, integrated > user interface capable of running on most current computers ensures that > all services are always available, regardless of where you may be. > > Your privacy is at all times protected with the highest level > cryptography available: 256 bit symmetric key and 2048-4096 bit > asymmetric keys. The level of security offered is unmatched in the > industry. > > Free and premium accounts are available. Take it for a test drive and > invite your friends to try it too. > > CryptoHeaven is confident in its system, and as such we release the > source code to any interested party for a review, free of charge. > > http://www.cryptoheaven.com From mikecabot at fastcircle.com Sat Dec 1 14:07:00 2001 From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 17:07:00 -0500 Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists Message-ID: <200112012207.QAA04576@einstein.ssz.com> Can you provide a URL or a source for the quote? > "The President announced today that journalists working against the > interests of the people and filing false reports will be treated as > terrorists and subject to severe punishment." > > a) President Bush of the U.S.A. > > b) President Mugabe of Zimbabwe. > > c) Both of them. > > > --Tim May > "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the > government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton > > >
_______________________________________________________________________________ Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address? Visit http://www.FastCircle.com From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 1 17:28:35 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 17:28:35 -0800 Subject: News we can use Message-ID: Deadly Gas Pumped Into Senate Office Building to Kill Remaining Criminals By Jefferson Henry, Router Rooters Writer WASHINGTON (Router Rooters) - Workers wearing protective suits and air tanks pumped poisonous gas into a Senate building in a cleanup Saturday intended to remove seventy-five Senators hiding in the building. The fumigation with chlorine dioxide gas was delayed for seven hours because of complications in reaching the high concentration level needed to most effectively kill the remaining criminals in the Hart Senate Office Building. Technicians for the Constitutional Protection Agency (news - web sites), which is in charge of the first politician decontamination in the United States using the gas, began pumping the gas into the building at 3 a.m. EST Saturday. John Rossrock, the CPA's on-site coordinator, said the fumigation might extend beyond the planned 12 hours in order to ``remove some lingering Congressional staffers and get an extra measure of confidence.'' The operation is expected to be complete by Tuesday, allowing Washington, D.C. to be declared a pest-free zone for the first time since 1911. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1746 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Sat Dec 1 17:43:33 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 17:43:33 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C089265.4281.4F715C7@localhost> References: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org> <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011201174333.007e7100@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:18 AM 12/1/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >On 30 Nov 2001, at 22:05, Petro wrote: >> What makes you think a reputation cannot be bought and sold? >> Ever hear of Public Relations firms? Politicians? >> Both are in the business of buying and selling reputations. >> > >Not exactly. You can pay a PR firm to try and help improve >your reputation, but that's not the same thing a reputation >pre-assembled and gift wrapped. Most likely they'll just tell you >to wear more earth tones, which won't actually help. > George, Petro is *way* off here. A PR firm/psyop division can only try to promote an opinion. They cannot control others' estimations of their clients' reputations. Consider a PR firm that fucks up. A pile of little baby arms, to excerpt Coppola. Yes, a good psyop operation can deny negative information, promote the positive, and thereby influence the population. That is a matter of information flow & control; the reps (which are distributed in the minds of subscribers) are not directly controlled. I suggest recognizing the distinction between controlling info and slant (psyops and Dan Rather and Turner and Murdoch, I don't actually follow that stuff) and controlling reps which can't be done directly (but which can be measured). The fact that info & slant *can* influence distributed reps is why psyops folks have jobs. Finally the reps which can (or can't) be bought and sold (the subject of an amazingly advanced thread, presently) is distinct from control of info and reps thereof. Petro is unfortunately mixing 'selling-of-nym-reps' with 'PR's effect of reps in a given population'. With all due respect. From pc2nups at pon.net Sat Dec 1 17:46:18 2001 From: pc2nups at pon.net (pc2nups at pon.net) Date: 01 Dec 2001 17:46:18 -0800 Subject: WE NEED YOUR HELP! Message-ID: <200112020143.RAA15820@toad.com> If you received this email by mistake and wish to be removed, scroll to the bottom of the page and follow the instructions. PC 2NUPS, Inc. 783 Rio Del Mar Blvd. Aptos, CA 95003 800-PC2NUPS 831-662-3600 100 COMPUTERS AT HUGE DISCOUNT! On September 8, 2001 one of our best customers ordered 100 Micron PCs at $499 each. Dutifully, we called our vendor and placed the order. On September 12, 2001, our customer called and cancelled their order due to the events the previous day. We tried to cancel our order but our vendor refused to take them back. NOW WE ARE STUCK WITH 100 COMPUTERS WE MUST SELL! These are brand new 750 Mhz PCs with 128 MB of RAM, 20 Gigabyte hard disk drives, 52X CD-ROMS, 56K PCI modems, 32 MB ATI Xpert2000 Pro AGP video cards, integrated sound adapters, Mitsumi 1.44 floppy, mouse and keyboard. Manufactured by Micron, a NYSE company! Our misfortune is your opportunity! We have no choice! We can't send them back and we can't store them. We have to sell them even if we don't make a profit! We have decided to lower the price on these 100 computers to just $389! An almost unheard of bargin. You'll save $110! We have just 100 of these computers to sell at this low price. When they are gone, your chance to save on a great computer system by a top notch company will go with them. Call us today at 662-3600. Take advantage of our mistake! But do it at once, this opportunity to save money will not occur again! Yours Up To 100, The Folks At PC 2NUPS P.S.: Buy Today and Get a FREE Pair of Creative Lab Speakers! In accordance with California Business and Professions Code Section 17538.4, if you do not wish to receive additional mail from us, simply send a blank e-mail with a subject line "REMOVE" to pc2nups at pon.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From _titomaroto at ig.com.br Sat Dec 1 18:06:15 2001 From: _titomaroto at ig.com.br (titomaroto) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:06:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Message-ID: <200112020206.SAA16875@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 110 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HAMSTER.DOC.pif Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29020 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 1 15:09:57 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:09:57 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:46 PM -0800 on 12/1/01, Tim May wrote: > What there may be are market-clearing prices, in various markets and at > various times, but this has nothing to do with "universally agreed-upon > values." Amen. The "worth" of anything is what the market pays for it. Period. I expect that "reputation" is something very close to "goodwill", which is a polite accounting fiction to deal with the fact that the calculated "worth", of an asset as carried on the books of a purchased entity, is less than what the market paid for it. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 1 16:23:07 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:23:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: It's for the sake of the Chiiiiildren. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > http://www.banscrewdrivers.com > > > "We hope that by ultimately banning the sale and use of screwdrivers, we > can make the world a little bit safer, and increase compassion towards > victims of screwdriver crimes and accidents." $100.00 says 9 out of ten people who hit the site will not understand what is being discussed :-( Nevertheless, this site *rocks*! -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From 3743859travelincentives at aol.com Sat Dec 1 18:37:43 2001 From: 3743859travelincentives at aol.com (3743859travelincentives at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:37:43 Subject: 6872 Would you like to lose weight while you sleep? 4385937 Message-ID: <200112020747.BAA08037@einstein.ssz.com> As seen on NBC, CBS, CNN, and even Oprah! The health discovery that actually reverses aging while burning fat, without dieting or exercise! This proven discovery has even been reported on by the New England Journal of Medicine. Forget aging and dieting forever! And it's Guaranteed! Click here: http://weighout.81832.com Would you like to lose weight while you sleep! No dieting! No hunger pains! No Cravings! No strenuous exercise! 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To remove yourself from all related maillists, just click here: mailto:pac2server at btamail.net.cn?Subject=REMOVE From 3743921travelincentives at aol.com Sat Dec 1 18:37:43 2001 From: 3743921travelincentives at aol.com (3743921travelincentives at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:37:43 Subject: 7368 Would you like to lose weight while you sleep? 4392137 Message-ID: <200112021544.HAA16214@toad.com> As seen on NBC, CBS, CNN, and even Oprah! The health discovery that actually reverses aging while burning fat, without dieting or exercise! This proven discovery has even been reported on by the New England Journal of Medicine. Forget aging and dieting forever! And it's Guaranteed! Click here: http://weighout.81832.com Would you like to lose weight while you sleep! No dieting! No hunger pains! No Cravings! No strenuous exercise! Change your life forever! 100% GUARANTEED! 1.Body Fat Loss 82% improvement. 2.Wrinkle Reduction 61% improvement. 3.Energy Level 84% improvement. 4.Muscle Strength 88% improvement. 5.Sexual Potency 75% improvement. 6.Emotional Stability 67% improvement. 7.Memory 62% improvement. *********************************************************** Click here to see another weight loss product: http://ultimatehgh.81832.com You are receiving this email as a subscriber to the Opt-In America Mailing List. To remove yourself from all related maillists, just click here: mailto:pac2server at btamail.net.cn?Subject=REMOVE From custserv at DSPromos.com Sat Dec 1 19:05:51 2001 From: custserv at DSPromos.com (DemStore.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:05:51 -0800 Subject: Great Holiday Specials Message-ID: <200112020309.TAA19669@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9708 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 1 16:27:20 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:27:20 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2691 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 1 19:52:33 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:52:33 -0800 Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists In-Reply-To: <200112020342.VAA06895@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <04088A3F-E6D8-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 07:41 PM, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote: > The Bush quote, please :) > > (Assuming Bush said it.) > >> >> >> Which one? >> >> >> --Tim May >> Mugabe said it, based on reporting last night on CNN. (Not a word for word quote, but faithful to the meaning.) Bush might well have said it, as more and more classes of people are now classed as "terrorists," the new pass phrase to the Constitution. --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 01:10:04 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 20:10:04 +1100 Subject: dead reporter found in motel Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201195553.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com> Kyneton,victoria au.Nov 2001.Wired reporter declan mc cullagh was found dead today in a country motel. Both wrists were deeply slashed with a stanley Knife and police say there are no suspicious circumstances. Though working on an esoteric story about a prototype internet weirdo,mc cullagh was said by a friend called 'measl' to be depressed.A washington lobby group known as the Cato institute is paying to have mr mc cullaghs ashes flown back home where they may be scattered over the city he loved.A huge crowd is expected inc many libertarians. Severance Package Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban's big kahuna, is floating an idea that a lot of publishers might find tempting: Shoot a reporter and get $50,000. From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 01:35:09 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 20:35:09 +1100 Subject: petrols opinion Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201203001.00a5b5d0@pop.useoz.com> "CJP is/was/will be a lot funnier, and could babble in a fairly linear incoherency that mattd cannot. " Agreed ,Ill even put a proffr dollar on myself. From roach_s at intplsrv.net Sat Dec 1 19:30:46 2001 From: roach_s at intplsrv.net (Sean Roach) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:30:46 -0600 Subject: zks freedom websecure trial Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20011201213020.00d1fb80@pop3.norton.antivirus> I got the invite as well. It LOOKS like they might be adding a little of the OLD Freedom back in. Anyone know if it's more than one proxy server, and if ZKS is going to control it/them? I haven't uninstalled freedom 3.0, but I haven't used Freedom at all since they pulled the tunneling. From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 02:33:28 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:33:28 +1100 Subject: Assasinating politics Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201212124.00a5c3d0@pop.useoz.com> Like bio-warfare,a subject that wont go away.AP is OK for the US and many other govts and the lunar right.Is it for you? politicalassasinations.com? I read a piece recently titled "Assasination Politics" and although I find the implications quite frightening, I must say that it seems to fit well within the whole Anarcho-Capitalist framework. The paper outlines an internet based system that would allow users to anonymously contribute money to a fund that would be used to place a pricetag on the head of a tyrannical despot. Collection of the bounty would also be done anonymously and electronically, due to the wonders of crypto. In theory, it would keep politicians on the straight and narrow. Interesting idea. I'm probably on an FBI list for posting a link to the paper on my site http://www.pjdoland.com/revolution/politics.html From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 02:45:37 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:45:37 +1100 Subject: Assasinating politics 2 Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201214430.00a64eb0@pop.useoz.com> http://www.libertarian.to/index.html Table Of Contents : June 29 June 2001 Assasination politics. by Jim Bell An interesting proposition ?? Libertarian International's mission is to coordinate various initiatives in the defense of individual liberty throughout the world. Formally, Libertarian International is a non-profit foundation registered in the Netherlands. You can write to us at our snail mail address : P.O. Box 21, 2910 Essen, Belgium Our BANK ACCOUNT, where you can send your contributions is with the RABO BANK, A/C Libertarian International, number 17.43.35.350 We accept payments in E-gold. The E-gold account number of Libertarian International is :102265 If you do not yet have your own E-gold account, find out about it on e-gold.com Libertarian International has little time or need for bureaucracy and hierarchy. Hubert Jongen of the Netherlands is the president; Palle Steen Jensen in Copenhagen, Christian Michel in Geneva and Henrik Bejke are among the founding members, and you are welcome to get in touch with any of them for further information and contacts. Libertarian International's principles are based on libertarianism. While libertarians are a diverse group of people with many philosophical starting points, they share a defining belief: that everyone should be free to do as they choose, so long as they don't infringe upon the equal freedom of others. Human interaction should be voluntary, not coerced. The only time physical force is acceptable is when it is used to defend against force. Many libertarians frame this in terms of the non-aggression principle: no individual or group of individuals shall initiate force against the person or property of any other individual. This might not seem very radical. After all, your parents probably taught you not to cheat, steal or pick fights -- in other words, not to use force against others. What sets libertarians apart is that they don't make any exceptions to this principle -- not even for governments. In the libertarian view, governments should be held to the same standards of right and wrong as individuals. As a result, libertarians believe that governments should not interfere with the interactions and exchanges of peaceful people. From artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 20:08:10 2001 From: artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com (Artcamp SC de RL) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 22:08:10 -0600 Subject: the Mexican woman who followed her heart Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011201220549.01f58010@pop.mail.yahoo.com> Artcamp is presenting our serialized e-novel "Azucena" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indigenous_peoples_literature/messages I You are welcome to join this group if you want to follow the story Azucena is the Mexican woman who followed her heart on the road to her destiny wherever that way leads. This is the "true" story, transformed by art, of a village girl whose heart was stolen by a macho bull-rider Best wishes from Guerrero Mexico Maria www.artcamp.com.mx _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From piolenc at mozcom.com Sat Dec 1 06:33:30 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 22:33:30 +0800 Subject: fuel injected firearm References: Message-ID: <3C08EA3A.813A4BDE@mozcom.com> I owned a Gyrojet and about 18 rounds of ammo back in the 70's, until my mother put it into her unsecure storage locker, whence it was stolen. I fired about 6 rounds through it. It was incredibly quiet, making no more noise than one of the smaller Estes rocket engines. Totally unlike a firearm, thus unlikely to be identified as a threat by a live target. There was, however, a distinct pause between pulling the trigger and the departure of the round - you had to follow through and be very steady. The construction of the weapon was more like a child's toy gun than a real weapon - crude sights, poor balance, etc. I miss it, though - I have a weakness for white elephants. Marc de Piolenc "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > > Steven Furlong[SMTP:sfurlong at acmenet.net] > > > > > I did see a GyroJet pistol once. A rocket pistol, firing little > > > rockets. Early 60s. Very expensive. And suffered from the fact that > > > each little rocket had to accelerate up to speed. Lots of chance for the > > > target to move. > > > > Gyrojet rounds burned out in, IIRC, 20 feet, and they covered that first > > 20 feet in a small fraction of a second. I don't think target dodging is > > any more of an issue than with conventional bullets. > > > Another problem with the Gyrojet was accuracy. Since it left the barrel > much more slowly than a traditional round, gyroscopic stabilization > was at a minimum at the start of the shell's path. A slight wobble > at this point would translate into a large deviation at the target. > > Peter -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From mikecabot at fastcircle.com Sat Dec 1 19:41:34 2001 From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 22:41:34 -0500 Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists Message-ID: <200112020342.VAA06895@einstein.ssz.com> The Bush quote, please :) (Assuming Bush said it.) > > > Which one? > > > --Tim May > > >
_______________________________________________________________________________ Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address? Visit http://www.FastCircle.com From m2001ig at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 23:47:00 2001 From: m2001ig at yahoo.com (BETTER FUTURES) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:47:00 -0800 Subject: BETTER YOUR FUTURE NOW,WE'LL SHOW YOU HOW! Message-ID: <200112020651.AAA07887@einstein.ssz.com> PUT YOUR COMPUTER TO "WORK FROM HOME" PT/FT $500-$5000 PER MONTH Do business in 50+ countries from you computer with our 20 year, Nasdaq traded, global company with 10-fold growth in last decade. Training and support in 20 languages via live schools, Internet audio/videos, conference calls or via the world�s largest private satellite network. Part time/ full time www.4abetterfuture.com/success4u, Your private access code is success4u To learn about us visitwww.4abetterfuture.com/success4u , access code success4u. You will be linked to our online video info site. Our information and online videos are free, informative and educational. The people on the videos all work from home and earn from a few hundred a month to over $5 million us per year. Twice in the last 20 years, we have been recognized as one of the fastest growing companies in America (by INC Magazine). We just opened offices in our 50th country, Morocco, in January 2001 and are opening our 51st country, Columbia, in June. If you are interested in doing something from home to supplement your income or possibly to become financially independent, you can follow the link above to see if what we have might work for you. It has for thousands of others around the world. To your better future we send our Best Wishes, MIG Consultants IN LIFE WE ARE ALL GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED, WHETHER WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM IS UP TO US. GO HERE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR OPPORTUNITY: www.4abetterfuture.com/success4u ********************************************************************** *I apologise if you have been offended. If you'd like to be removed, simply reply with REMOVE in the subject line and you will be removed immediately and receive no further mailings. This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered SPAM aslong as I include a valid return address and the way to be removed. Your contact information came to us from an opt-in firm. Although most of our mail is sent once only, for prompt, permanent removal of your records, simply reply to this with "REMOVE". We have a strict anti-Spam policy. From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Sat Dec 1 21:35:57 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:35:57 -0500 Subject: News we can use Message-ID: <42fc823ff61acacc817a01a43e4c3adb@freedom.gmsociety.org> > Deadly Gas Pumped Into Senate Office Building to Kill Remaining Criminals May's handlers are panicking. 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Please email me your name and full mailing address to vision4u96709 at yahoo.com Earnest vision4u96709 at yahoo.com 808-361-1696 From kmself at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 2 00:43:13 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:43:13 -0800 Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions In-Reply-To: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:12:53PM -0800 References: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20011202004313.A3395@navel.introspect> on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:12:53PM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote: > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing. > > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.) Defeat: create a log buffer file of fixed size, logged activity changes its contents, but not the size of the file. E.g.: a filesystem image file under GNU/Linux. Techniques could be used to maintain a constant global MD5 checksum to defeat other detection attempts. Manipulating file create/modify times is trivial under most OSs. > Most users of PGP take no steps to secure key materials. (I plead > guilty, too.) Most of us are used to immediate access, and we want > crypto integrated with our mail. The notion of going to a locked safe, > taking out the laptop or removable hard drive, ensuring an "air gap" > between the decoding system and the Net, and checking for keyloggers > and hostile code, and so on, is foreign to most of us. These measures can be taken for specific, high-security, messages. Risk profiles are not isomorphic in all circumstances. > The "dongle" idea (e.g., Dallas Semiconductor buttons, etc.) has been > around for a long time. Many of which are woefully poorly designed. Zimmerman at ALS spoke of one in which the key was stored in cleartext within the dongle, don't recall the specific device. > Here's a new twist: the Apple iPod music player. I just got one. A 4.6 > GB hard disk (Toshiba 1.8"). Hooks up via Firewire/IEEE 1394, with the > link recharging the battery and auto-linking. The disk can also be > mounted as a standard Firewire disk. Meaning, it could be used to > store key material and even be used for PGP scratch operations. The > increased security comes from its small size (easy to lock up) and > because I usually have it with me when I am away from home. This makes > "sneak and peek" searches and plants of malicious code less useful. > Not a complete solution. Crypto hygiene and all. The iPod's definitely an attractive target for portable computing, it's also fairly robust (I bounced the demo off the hardwood floor of Apple's Palo Alto store from about 4-5 ft.). It appears you're just using it for storage purposes. Note that this still requires trusting the environment to which the iPod is attached. Various handhelds, particularly running an advanced OS (e.g.: GNU/Linux), would be similarly attractive devices, readily kept on ones person at most times, and support encrypted filesystems or files. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From jon at usedvideo.org Sat Dec 1 17:32:09 2001 From: jon at usedvideo.org (jon at usedvideo.org) Date: 2 Dec 2001 01:32:09 +0000 Subject: Used Video Gear 4 Sale Message-ID: alkdf To unsubscribe from this email list, http://www.emailhosts.com/secutran/emailmanager/addaddress.php?shreference=SH201105&action=2&address=cypherpunks at toad.com&jobid=16520 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 11:17:20 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:17:20 +1100 Subject: Dead reporter found in motel Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202061523.00a619b0@pop.useoz.com> 220 pounds of anthrax spores released from a crop-duster over Washington D.C., on a calm clear night - could kill one million to three million people in the metropolitan area, according to the US Office of Technology Assessment. William Patrick, who served as a UN Inspector in Iraq, believes the scenario could take only 100 pounds of the agent.The main detail now is to make just work on the honkies. From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 11:31:43 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:31:43 +1100 Subject: Fwd: Attn: J Orlin Grabbe Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202063109.00a62860@pop.useoz.com> >Subject: Attn: J Orlin Grabbe > >November: Iceland ignores Sea Shepherd's warning to comply with the IWC >ban on commercial whaling. Sea Shepherd agents sink half of Iceland's >whaling fleet in Reykjavik harbor and destroy their whale processing station. > >1988 March: A Sea Shepherd agent documents the killing of dolphins by a >U.S. tuna seiner. The footage scandalizes the nation, embarrasses the tuna >industry, and leads to the creation of the "dolphin-safe" tuna label law. > >1989 June: The Sea Shepherd II intercepts two Venezuelan tuna seiners off >the coast of Costa Rica, documents evidence of kills exceeding a thousand >dolphins, disrupts Mexican tuna seiner operations in the Eastern Pacific. > >1990 August: The Sea Shepherd II encounters two Japanese drift net vessels >in the eastern Pacific, cuts and confiscates thirty miles of drift net. > >1991 July: Sea Shepherd goes to Trinidad to protest Caribbean driftnetting >by the Taiwanese. Sea Shepherd is made an official auxiliary to the >Trinidad & Tobago Coast Guard. > >December 20th, 1991: The United Nation General Assembly approves >Resolution 46/215 which bans drift net fishing worldwide as of January 1993. > >1992 March: SSCS establishes the Oceanic Research and Conservation Action >Force, or O.R.C.A.FORCE, to coordinate all data gathering and crew actions >of Sea Shepherd. Lisa Distefano is appointed Director. > >May: O.R.C.A.FORCE agent scuttles the illegal driftnet vessel Jiang Hai in >the harbor at Kaohsiung, Taiwan. >One-click activism: >Send this report & your comments to the Costa Rican Ambassador: >http://eactivist.actionize.org/actnow.php?1338 > >October 31st, 2001 > >Cocos Island Emergency >A report from Nicola Ghersinich and Mario Arroyo > >Every year, 1,250 visitors come to scuba dive Cocos Island, off Costa >Rica, attracted by its extraordinary biodiversity of this World Heritage Site. > >Today, Cocos Island can no longer be considered a marine reserve. It is >now a fishing base. What had been considered a sanctuary for threatened >marine species is now just an extended community for fishermen to exploit. > >We are confronting a crisis. >(cont at http://www.seashepherd.org/campaigns/cocos/pr110601.html From jackdx at byada.com Sun Dec 2 15:34:51 2001 From: jackdx at byada.com (Amy Wilson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:34:51 -1700 Subject: Highest Payout On The Net!! Message-ID: <00001092409f$00004715$00002daa@mail.byada.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1415 bytes Desc: not available URL: From james_denney at byada.com Sun Dec 2 15:35:10 2001 From: james_denney at byada.com (Darren Wells) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:35:10 -1700 Subject: Earn some EXTRA Holiday Cash Message-ID: <0000066e3310$00007857$00002e57@mail.byada.com> * Toss The 9 to 5 * Does Financial Freedom Interest You? How about being your own boss? Working your own hours? Answering ONLY to yourself? Skydiving in Egypt? (just making sure you're listening) Are you interested in applying your skills towards Direct Marketing and the Internet? If you are motivated, trainable and serious about starting a home-based business, then we would like to talk with you! Follow Me To The Details To be removed from this list Click Here From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 2 06:41:53 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 06:41:53 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C08DDBD.32398.61D6795@localhost> References: <3C08D38B.10329.103F322@localhost> Message-ID: <3C09CD31.10863.4D32372@localhost> -- georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > > > For reputation to have a single well defined value it > > > is necessary but not sufficient that there be a market > > > in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED market. James A. Donald: > > Something has a single well defined value to its > > possessor without any need for it to be commoditized. georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > We're not disagreeing. By a "single" value I meant a > universally agreed upon value. Strictly speaking, nothing has a single universally agreed value, not even a single universally agreed exchange value, though commodity goods come close. Exchange value is a discovery process, which can never be entirely completed. Our main interest in reputations is that the value of someone's reputation will stop them from doing bad things. For example an auctioneer with a reasonable nym on ebay will get about six percent better prices in auctions than someone with a crappy nym. If one regularly auctions stuff, that is worth serious money. Now reflect that if someone has a good established name on ebay he can sell it, which is why most sellers do not use true names. Of course the buyer, having paid serious money for the name, will usually continue to behave as well as the person who earned the reputation. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG YpkuiCiQKlQNtG6KCw8TrfRj0dRYxgS6RmoIHl44 45BtPAvKM5c1B3GhThLZN0NSLAVL5uag5zYdRmrw3 From honig at sprynet.com Sun Dec 2 07:19:29 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 07:19:29 -0800 Subject: Enigma - sources Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011202071929.007f0340@pop.sprynet.com> >From: "Rafal Brzeski" >To: >Subject: Enigma - sources >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:16:16 +0100 > >As I was asked to provide documentary evidence regarding Polish pre-war >codebreaking achievements I would like to inform all List Members that .pdf >versions of the original versions of: > >Marian Rejewski's report of 1940 >Marian Rejewski's report of 1967 >Marian Rejewski's report of 1969 >Marian Rejewski's notes, commentaries to various books etc > >will be shortly published in the "Enigma File" a special section of the >Spybooks. (www.spybooks.com) > >Now in the Spybooks Library, you can read (and pick up if you want) a short >compendium: "ENIGMA: The Key to the Secrets of the Third Reich 1933-45" >written in 1984 by Wladyslaw Kozaczuk, an author who first in the world (in >1967) made public the fact that the German Enigma machine cipher had been >cracked before the Second World War. > >Best regards, >--- >Rafal Brzeski >www.spybooks.com From info at all1print.com Sat Dec 1 16:14:17 2001 From: info at all1print.com (All1Print Newsletter) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 08:14:17 +0800 Subject: Business Cards as your powerful marketing tools Message-ID: <1007252057.950@tm.net.my> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9989 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Sun Dec 2 10:01:05 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:01:05 -0800 Subject: dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: <20011202111619.A8097@cluebot.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201195553.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011202100105.007eb100@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:16 AM 12/2/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Yeah, it wasn't terrible. But it wasn't up there with the Linux >Chainsaw Massacre either. > >-Declan Is that an updated sequel to the Xenix Chainsaw Massacre? Did you get an advance copy for review :-) From grocha at neutraldomain.org Sun Dec 2 10:43:50 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:43:50 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:29:07PM -0600 References: <3C09CD31.10863.4D32372@localhost> Message-ID: <20011202104350.B73534@neutraldomain.org> On Sun, Dec 02, at 12:29PM, Jim Choate wrote: | Actually not, most folks use reputations to do away with security checks | they would use othewise. It's a sellers cost cutting measure. If you have | a 'good' reputation my cost of diong secure and reliable business will | probably(!!!) be lower. I know trying to educate you to the ways of the world is a futile effort, but I can't resist sometimes. How does my great wonderful reputation reduce the cost of doing business with me? It may well give me more business, but certainly not chaper business. I don't care how reliable you are, if you start skimping on security your reliability goes down in my book. --Gabe -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 2 09:09:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 11:09:48 -0600 Subject: Guardian Unlimited Observer | International | FBI agents rebel over new powers Message-ID: <3C0A605C.564EAF0@ssz.com> http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,610381,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sun Dec 2 08:16:19 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:16:19 -0500 Subject: dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:49AM -0600 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201195553.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <20011202111619.A8097@cluebot.com> On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:49AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > That's the first thing you have ever written that was genuinely worth > reading! Keep practicing, and in three or four hundred years you could be > the "GreatGreatReallyGreatGrandsonOfGomez(tM)". Yeah, it wasn't terrible. But it wasn't up there with the Linux Chainsaw Massacre either. -Declan From mdig20012000 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 11:42:03 2001 From: mdig20012000 at yahoo.com (BETTER FUTURES) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:42:03 -0800 Subject: BETTER YOUR FUTURE NOW,WE'LL SHOW YOU HOW! Message-ID: <200112021843.MAA11678@einstein.ssz.com> PUT YOUR COMPUTER TO "WORK FROM HOME" PT/FT $500-$5000 PER MONTH Do business in 50+ countries from you computer with our 20 year, Nasdaq traded, global company with 10-fold growth in last decade. Training and support in 20 languages via live schools, Internet audio/videos, conference calls or via the world�s largest private satellite network. Part time/ full time www.4abetterfuture.com/success4u, Your private access code is success4u To learn about us visitwww.4abetterfuture.com/success4u , access code success4u. You will be linked to our online video info site. Our information and online videos are free, informative and educational. The people on the videos all work from home and earn from a few hundred a month to over $5 million us per year. Twice in the last 20 years, we have been recognized as one of the fastest growing companies in America (by INC Magazine). We just opened offices in our 50th country, Morocco, in January 2001 and are opening our 51st country, Columbia, in June. If you are interested in doing something from home to supplement your income or possibly to become financially independent, you can follow the link above to see if what we have might work for you. It has for thousands of others around the world. To your better future we send our Best Wishes, MIG Consultants IN LIFE WE ARE ALL GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED, WHETHER WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM IS UP TO US. GO HERE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR OPPORTUNITY: www.4abetterfuture.com/success4u ********************************************************************** *I apologise if you have been offended. If you'd like to be removed, simply reply with REMOVE in the subject line and you will be removed immediately and receive no further mailings. This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered SPAM aslong as I include a valid return address and the way to be removed. Your contact information came to us from an opt-in firm. Although most of our mail is sent once only, for prompt, permanent removal of your records, simply reply to this with "REMOVE". We have a strict anti-Spam policy. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 2 10:15:07 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:15:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote: > But by preventing me from trespassing you're restricting my freedom of > speech! According to you, that's illegal. Not at all. You are still free to speak, just not on my property. You have a right to engage in any behaviour until it infringes another. You're trespassing infringes my property right. My not allowing you entry doesn't effect your freedom of speech (only who is listening, which isn't a right). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 2 10:19:44 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:19:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Petro wrote: > Both are in the business of buying and selling reputations. Actually they're in the business of buying and selling 'impressions', not reputations. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 2 10:29:07 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:29:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C09CD31.10863.4D32372@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Our main interest in reputations is that the value of > someone's reputation will stop them from doing bad things. Actually not, most folks use reputations to do away with security checks they would use othewise. It's a sellers cost cutting measure. If you have a 'good' reputation my cost of diong secure and reliable business will probably(!!!) be lower. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sun Dec 2 10:03:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:03:59 -0500 Subject: dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: <20011202175512.8F3A1259C3@suburbia.net> References: <20011202111619.A8097@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011202130347.022e47e0@mail.well.com> Ack, of course you're right. http://www.tigerteam.net/anarchy/texts/xenix-full.html -Declan At 04:55 AM 12/3/2001 +1100, Julian Assange wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:49AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > > That's the first thing you have ever written that was genuinely worth > > > reading! Keep practicing, and in three or four hundred years you > could be > > > the "GreatGreatReallyGreatGrandsonOfGomez(tM)". > > > > Yeah, it wasn't terrible. But it wasn't up there with the Linux > > Chainsaw Massacre either. > > > > -Declan > >Xenix. From fubob at MIT.EDU Sun Dec 2 13:46:58 2001 From: fubob at MIT.EDU (Kevin Fu) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:46:58 -0800 Subject: 2002 USENIX Security Symposium - Call for papers Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011202134522.033ba870@idiom.com> Symposium's in San Francisco in August. Papers due January 28 for review. In case your mailer doesn't like the way Eudora munges headers while forwarding, it was originally sent by Kevin Fu Bill Stewart =================================== 2002 USENIX Security Symposium - Call for papers OVERVIEW Tutorials: August 5-6, 2002 Technical Sessions: August 7-9, 2002 The USENIX Security Symposium brings together researchers, practitioners, system administrators, system programmers, and others interested in the latest advances in security of computer systems. If you are working on any practical aspects of security or applications of cryptography, the program committee would like to encourage you to submit a paper. Submissions are due on January 28th, 2002. This symposium will last for four and a half days. Two days of tutorials will be followed by two and a half days of technical sessions including refereed papers, invited talks, works-in-progress, and panel discussions. IMPORTANT DATES Conference registration information and program will be available in May 2002 on the symposium Web site at http://www.usenix.org/events/sec02/ If you would like to receive the program booklet in print, please email your request, including your postal address, to: conference at usenix.org. Paper submission deadline: January 28th, 2002 Notification to authors: March 25th, 2002 Camera ready due: May 13th, 2002 SYMPOSIUM ORGANIZERS Program Chair Dan Boneh, Stanford University Program Committee Steve Bellovin, AT&T Labs - Research Matt Blaze, AT&T Labs - Research Drew Dean, SRI International Kevin Fu, M.I.T. Brian LaMacchia, Microsoft Corporation Patrick Lincoln, SRI International Vern Paxson, ICSI Radia Perlman, Sun Microsystems Laboratories Mike Reiter, Bell Labs, Lucent Avi Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research Adam Stubblefield, Rice University Leendert van Doorn, IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Wietse Venema, IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Dan Wallach, Rice University Bennet Yee, University of California, San Diego Elizabeth Zwicky, Counterpane Internet Security SYMPOSIUM TOPICS Refereed paper submissions are being solicited in all areas relating to systems and network security, including but not limited to: Adaptive security and system management Analysis of malicious code Analysis of network and security protocols Applications of cryptographic techniques Attacks against networks and machines Automated tools for source code analysis Authentication and authorization of users, systems, and applications Denial-of-service attacks File and filesystem security Firewall technologies Intrusion detection Privacy preserving systems Public key infrastructure Rights management and copyright protection Security in heterogeneous environments Security of agents and mobile code Security of Internet voting systems Techniques for developing secure systems World Wide Web security Since Usenix Security is primarily a systems security conference, papers focusing on cryptographic primitives or electronic commerce models, are encouraged to seek alternative conferences. REFEREED PAPERS Wednesday - Friday, August 7-9 Papers that have been formally reviewed and accepted will be presented during the symposium and published in the symposium proceedings. The proceedings will be distributed to attendees and, following the conference, will be available online to USENIX members and for purchase. Best Paper Awards Awards will be given at the conference for the best paper and for the best paper that is primarily the work of a student. TUTORIALS, INVITED TALKS, PANEL DISCUSSIONS, WIPS, AND BOFS In addition to the refereed papers and the keynote presentation, the technical program will include tutorials, invited talks, panel discussions, a Work-in-Progress session (WIPs), and Birds-of-a-Feather Sessions. You are invited to make suggestions regarding topics or speakers for any of these formats to the program chair via email to sec02chair at usenix.org. Tutorials (August 5-6) Tutorials for both technical staff and managers will provide immediately useful, practical information on topics such as local and network security precautions, what cryptography can and cannot do, security mechanisms and policies, firewalls and monitoring systems. If you are interested in proposing a tutorial, or suggesting a topic, contact the USENIX Tutorial Coordinator, Dan Klein, by email to dvk at usenix.org. Invited Talks (August 7-9) There will be several outstanding invited talks at the symposium in parallel with the refereed papers. Please submit topic suggestions and talk proposals via email to sec02it at usenix.org. Panel Discussions (August 7-9) The technical sessions will also feature some panel discussions. Please send topic suggestions and proposals to sec02chair at usenix.org. Work-in-Progress Session (WIPs) (August 9) The last session of the symposium will be a Works-in-Progress session. This session will consist of short presentations about work-in-progress, new results, or timely topics. Speakers should submit a one- or two-paragraph abstract to sec02wips at usenix.org by 6:00 pm on Wednesday, August 7, 2002. Please include your name, affiliation, and the title of your talk. The accepted abstracts will appear on the symposium Web site after the symposium. The time available will be distributed among the presenters with a minimum of 5 minutes and a maximum of 10 minutes. The time limit will be strictly enforced. A schedule of presentations will be posted at the symposium. Experience has shown that most submissions are usually accepted. Birds-of-a-Feather Sessions (BoFs) (August 6-8) There will be Birds-of-a-Feather sessions (BoFs) on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings. Birds-of-a-Feather sessions are informal gatherings of persons interested in a particular topic. BoFs often feature a presentation or a demonstration followed by discussion, announcements, and the sharing of strategies. BoFs can be scheduled on-site, but if you wish to pre-schedule a BoF, please email the conference office, conference at usenix.org. They will need to know the title of the BoF with a brief description, the name, title and company and email address of the facilitator, your preference of date, and whether an overhead projector and screen is desired. HOW AND WHERE TO SUBMIT REFEREED PAPERS Papers should represent novel scientific contributions in computer security with direct relevance to the engineering of secure systems and networks. Both the work described in the paper and the paper itself must be substantially complete at the time of the submission. Full papers are encouraged, and should be about 8 to 14 typeset pages using an 11pt font or larger. Submissions must be received by January 28th, 2002. Papers will only be accepted electronically, via the symposium Web site, and must be in PDF format (e.g. processed by Adobe's Acrobat Distiller). Note that LaTeX users can use the "dvipdf" command to convert a DVI file into PDF format. Please make sure your submission can be opened using Adobe Acrobat 4.0. For more details on the submission process, authors are encouraged to consult the detailed author guidelines available at http://www.usenix.org/events/sec02/cfp/guidelines.html All submissions will be judged on originality, contribution to the field, and correctness. Each accepted submission may be assigned a member of the program committee to act as its shepherd through the preparation of the final paper. The assigned member will act as a conduit for feedback from the committee to the authors. Authors will be notified of acceptance by March 25th, 2002. Camera-ready final paper due date is May 13th, 2002. The USENIX Security Symposium, like most conferences and journals, requires that papers not be submitted simultaneously to another conference or publication and that submitted papers not be previously or subsequently published elsewhere. When appropriate, authors should arrange for a release for publication from their employer prior to submission. Papers accompanied by non-disclosure agreement forms are not acceptable and will be returned to the author(s) unread. Submissions will be read by the program committee and other selected members of the technical community for the purposes of technical review, but otherwise will be held in confidentiality. Specific questions about submissions may be sent via e-mail to sec02chair at usenix.org. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From donotreply at webhosting.com Sun Dec 2 11:58:23 2001 From: donotreply at webhosting.com (donotreply at webhosting.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:58:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Message received Message-ID: <200112021958.fB2JwN138151@whbsd020.webhosting.com> Greetings from SBC's WebHosting.com, We have received your eMail regarding suspected abuse of our Acceptable Use Policy by one of our customers. If your issue involves unsolicited eMail (UBE or UCE), please send us a message that includes the entire unsolicited eMail you received along with complete headers of the offending message. Please limit your message to essential information that will help us with the investigation of the incident. Personal commentary may delay the processing of your request. Please be advised that we can only address abuse issues for our customers. It is common for SPAM and Usenet abuse to be generated with false or manipulated return addresses. SPAM and/or abuse by other customers should be reported to the Postmaster or Abuse address of the originating domain or service provider for proper handling and disposition. Please look at the full header information, including the information received, to determine the true origin of the eMail. For Usenet, you can use the 'NNTP posting host' IP address or hostname. Please note that due to the volume of eMails we receive, we are not able to respond personally to each message. We do investigate each incident brought to our attention and take corrective action when appropriate. Please feel free to review our Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.webhosting.com/pages/ab_policies.shtml. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. If you need additional assistance, feel free to contact us at abuse at webhosting.com. Again, thank you for providing us with this information. Many thanks, Abuse team - WebHosting.com www.webhosting.com 1-888-WEB-HOSTING (932-4678) From floop at labyrinth.net.au Sun Dec 2 17:07:13 2001 From: floop at labyrinth.net.au (floop) Date: 02 Dec 2001 15:07:13 -1000 Subject: list Message-ID: <1007341633.96143.0.camel@master.lab.office.labyrinth.net.au> From faustine at lokmail.net Sun Dec 2 14:04:41 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:04:41 -0500 Subject: in praise of gold Message-ID: <200112022204.RAA27791@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at homeport.org Sun Dec 2 15:17:40 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:17:40 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org> <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <20011202181740.A7089@weathership.homeport.org> On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 03:30:09PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- | | At 1:19 PM -0500 on 12/1/01, Adam Shostack wrote: | | | > Right. Now the seller has the cash, and the buyer has nothing. | > The seller has lost only the future value of the nym, which was | > presumably accounted for in the price. The seller loses no "real" | > reputation, because the nym can't be tied back to the is-a-person | > seller. The buyer, meanwhile, is out the price of the nym, and | > must either | > destroy the nym in order to ensure that the seller actually loses | > all that value, or accept damaged goods. | > | > So, why would a buyer agree to such a transaction, where he will | > remain at the mercy of the seller? | | I look at nyms as a contingent claim on some asset, which should be | handled just as any other security. Certainly you can destroy the | value of a nym, just like you can any real property, but it might be | better not to do that. I agree with something that Wei Dai said a | long time ago that any nym would only be worth it's ability to | control some independantly-verified asset, though, which, frankly, is | as it should be when you think about it. In which case, you might be better off transferring the asset, rather than the nym. | Just to sort of thrash things a bit, in a capital markets | transaction, an exchange isn't such a hard thing to do, in the sense | that a secondary bearer-form asset transaction (primary is like an | IPO, or, for cash, a collateral asset conversion like an ATM | transaction), cash for bond, say, would require the participation of | the underwriters in the exchange protocol. Yeah, mature markets solve problems. How to create a mature market is a question that apparently can't be solved for all the tea in China, or all the oil in Russia. Not that I think the solution is all that hard; reading Smith, Hayek, Friedman, Nozick and some other smart people gives you a very clear map, but the folks with the guns over there still haven't read Olsen's last book (thanks), where he explains that thugs do better to let the economy grow than to take all the money at once. Something about the first hundred names in the Cambridge phone book springs to mind. | Just to sort of thrash things a bit, in a capital markets | transaction, an exchange isn't such a hard thing to do, in the sense | that a secondary bearer-form asset transaction (primary is like an | IPO, or, for cash, a collateral asset conversion like an ATM | transaction), cash for bond, say, would require the participation of | the underwriters in the exchange protocol. [...] | At primary issuance, a trustee is involved, so, that probably | supervises the Underwriter, who ever it is owns the underwriting | engine. The above should hold for all kinds of unique, uncopyable | things, teleoperated surgery, or opinions, for instance. A nym is none of these. | I expect, for physical goods, some variant of this model holds, | because there's someone responsible for the physical supervision of a | given asset with a net-based audit/authentication of that supervision | of some kind, signed video, or whatever. Or these. | For "software", in the Gary Becker sense of something that can be | copied, all we're really looking for is something which authenticates | that a given copy of an information good is in fact signed by the | person proported to be the "author" of that information/content/code. | Coupled with a decent third-party time-signature mechanism, you're | fine, because, after the first copy, such a good is a purely fungible | commodity ala Hughes' "Institutional Piracy", or the Agoric guys' | "digital silk road", or my "recursive geodesic auction" stuff. Such | situations are classic examples of so-called "perfect competition", | as found in physical graded-commodity markets everywhere. So here's the rub. A nym (as I'm using the term) is control over a private key thats associated with some reputation, which Alice is trying to sell to Bob. Alice can not provide direct assurance that she won't keep copies of the thing she's selling. Through intermediaries, Bob can buy some insurance that the revocation games Alice can play are limited. How valuable that insurance is depends on the trustworthiness of the intermediaries, how likely the reliant parties are to properly check signatures, and the value of social engineering in a field where process issues are not yet well understood. (See also http://www.seifried.org/security/articles/20011023-devil-in-details.html ) There might be a relationship here to the sale of music bits; the RIAA is all worked up over issues of how do they sell the same bits over and over. If you can answer the question of "How to sell a set of bits exactly once?" you may be able to answer the question "How to ensure that I don't keep a copy of those bits?" or "How do I sell a million people copies of the same bits without them transferring them around." The problems are not identical, but some of the same sorts of solutions may help. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From pc2nups at pon.net Sun Dec 2 18:18:24 2001 From: pc2nups at pon.net (pc2nups at pon.net) Date: 02 Dec 2001 18:18:24 -0800 Subject: WE NEED YOUR HELP!-ADV Message-ID: <200112030215.SAA07095@toad.com> If you received this email by mistake and wish to be removed, scroll to the bottom of the page and follow the instructions. PC 2NUPS, Inc. 783 Rio Del Mar Blvd. Aptos, CA 95003 800-PC2NUPS 831-662-3600 100 COMPUTERS AT HUGE DISCOUNT! On September 8, 2001 one of our best customers ordered 100 Micron PCs at $499 each. Dutifully, we called our vendor and placed the order. On September 12, 2001, our customer called and cancelled their order due to the events the previous day. We tried to cancel our order but our vendor refused to take them back. NOW WE ARE STUCK WITH 100 COMPUTERS WE MUST SELL! These are brand new 750 Mhz PCs with 128 MB of RAM, 20 Gigabyte hard disk drives, 52X CD-ROMS, 56K PCI modems, 32 MB ATI Xpert2000 Pro AGP video cards, integrated sound adapters, Mitsumi 1.44 floppy, mouse and keyboard. Manufactured by Micron, a NYSE company! Our misfortune is your opportunity! We have no choice! We can't send them back and we can't store them. We have to sell them even if we don't make a profit! We have decided to lower the price on these 100 computers to just $389! An almost unheard of bargin. You'll save $110! We have just 100 of these computers to sell at this low price. When they are gone, your chance to save on a great computer system by a top notch company will go with them. 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It was submitted by (HENRYHUNTERJR34500 at xpx.com) on Sunday, December 2, 2001 at 16:45:34 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: 
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From hardatwork at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  2 17:48:51 2001
From: hardatwork at yahoo.com (hardatwork at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:48:51 -0700
Subject: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: The media report
Message-ID: <200112030146.RAA06347@toad.com>



From 4255937travelincentives at aol.com  Sun Dec  2 19:42:55 2001
From: 4255937travelincentives at aol.com (4255937travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:42:55
Subject: 7496           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  5593742
Message-ID: <200112021142.DAA14214@rs211.d3tech.com>


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From 4256125travelincentives at aol.com  Sun Dec  2 19:42:56 2001
From: 4256125travelincentives at aol.com (4256125travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:42:56
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:42:57
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From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Dec  2 16:54:43 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:54:43 -0500
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011202181740.A7089@weathership.homeport.org>
References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>
 
 <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org>
 
 <20011202181740.A7089@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 8561 bytes
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From usa at registeredsite.com  Sun Dec  2 17:05:42 2001
From: usa at registeredsite.com (usa at registeredsite.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 20:05:42 -0500
Subject: Fw: Christmas Cash Alert Call
Message-ID: <200112030008.fB308eX14148@mail4.registeredsite.com>



From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 01:32:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 20:32:59 +1100
Subject: p-p survSOC
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202203232.00a32430@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: The P2P surveillance society approaches...


http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~kostas/omni.html
"The Page of Omnidirectional Vision"

Bunch o'links to commercial and research work on omnidirectional vision
systems, including novel cameras and software to stitch the images together.

The FlyCam work at FujiXerox Palo Alto Labs (FXPal) is particularly
interesting, since it is comparatively low cost, done mostly with
off-the-shelf hardware.
http://www.fxpal.com/smartspaces/flycam/flycam_home.htm

Those of you who know about the Aspen Movie Map, a virtual reality tour of
Aspen, Colorado performed in 1979
   will find the
FlyAbout work to be familiar:
http://www.fxpal.com/smartspaces/FlyAbout/index.htm

The big difference is that now this capability is possible using standard,
stock equipment. Oh, and having GPS around is a big help too.


How do we make the surveillance society
 from these pieces? Miniaturize the
cameras and associated electronics, and have a large number of people wear
one. So far, just like in David Brin's novel "Earth"
.

Everyone records omnidirectional images of their surroundings, and records
the positions they were in.

Now, combine this with Peer-to-Peer technology. Allow everyone to search
everyone else's image banks, based on geographic information. This require
shifting existing P2P technology from a music-based metadata schema to one
that is geospatially based. The schemas already exist:
.

Key factors keeping us from the surveillance society:
* the cameras are too heavy, and too expensive
* disk space is still too expensive (for compact, portable memory)
* wireless transmission rates are still too slow
* wireless access is not yet ubiquitous

But, I think you'll agree that none of these are fundamental limitations
(i.e., fixing these does not require breaking physical laws).

When will we start seeing the start of the peer-to-peer surveillance
society? I give it 10 years, maybe less.

- Jim




From jonnyweron at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  2 12:32:59 2001
From: jonnyweron at hotmail.com (Jonny Weron)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 20:32:59 +0000
Subject: 256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File Storage 
Message-ID: 


>Another proprietary key format. Why not base such a system on OpenPGP?
>
>Hmm. AES-256 with SHA-256? Children, what's wrong with the balance
>in this system?
>
>How does a user verify authenticity of another user's public key?
>
>Aside from being incompatible with anything else on the net, how is this
>different or more secure than Hushmail? Than Cryptomail.org?


The AES-256 is used independently from SHA-256 and for a different purpose.  
One is used for encryption, the other for hashing.  If you�d like to match 
crypto level provided by the hash, you would have to apply something like 
SHA-512, but that is irrelevant.  SHA-256 is a convenient way of hashing 
passphrases into 256-bit symmetric key-material used to initialize key 
vectors in the AES.  I would suggest you should look into the source code 
(available from the CryptoHeaven 
web site) before making such trivial but misleading comments.
Also, proprietary key format is not such a bad idea as long as the source is 
open for review.  OpenPGP standard involves much more than simple RSA key, 
and any software using it is prone to the possible errors that may come with 
it.  Making a simpler key format with only the very things that are 
necessary make it easier to maintain and it is easier to verify correctness 
of implementation.

So what about Hushmail you ask.  For one, CryptoHeaven does not require you 
to send your encrypted private key to the server making CryptoHeaven a much 
more secure solution.  Furthermore, CryptoHeaven includes things like secure 
multi party folder sharing and multi user discussions which are not 
available in other systems.




_________________________________________________________________
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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 01:47:37 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 20:47:37 +1100
Subject: News we can use
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202204045.00a37b30@pop.useoz.com>


"May's handlers are panicking."
In spite of alpha baboons best efforts to lead c/punk revolution up racist 
and capitalist cul de sacs.

Subject: capitalism in america
Anyone who reads this book should recognize Alan Greenspan, Phil Gramm,
Milton Friedman, and David Horowitz for the lying charlatans they are.
Anyone who reads this book should realize the Democrat party is as much
the party of the propertied class as the Republican party. And anyone who
thinks the there is any worthiness to capitalism as an economic system, or
who believes the propertied class is not waging unremitting class war
against eveyone else should consider the words, not of Karl Marx, but of
Abraham Lincoln: "These capitalists act harmoniously and in concert to
fleece the people."
Malthus, Ricardo, Adam Smith--to see they fully
understood what they were creating. They knew capitalism would be a
tremendously productive economic system; but, as they followed the logic
of the economic principles they were developing and articulating, they
also realized it was a system which eventually reduces virtually the
entire population of capitalist societies to starvation while all the
wealth becomes vested in the hands of an ever shrinking elite. As they
themselves predicted, capitalism is an economic system which ultimately
destroys itself and takes everyone with it. It, quite literally, is the
Titanic of economic systems; and its advocates preach it is unsinkable.
Because the version of capitalism practiced in most European nations is
not as pure, not as true to the principles of capitalist ideology as in
the U.S., the inherently destructive consequences of the ideology are not
as pronounced and as profound as in the U.S. The European nations may be
"behind" us, but what is happening here will happen to them; it is
inherent in the logic of capitalist ideology.
Tims opinions of jews are well documented.So long mate,Its been real.




From info4profit at alloymail.com  Sun Dec  2 21:20:09 2001
From: info4profit at alloymail.com (info4profit at alloymail.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:20:09
Subject: Fresh, Cost-effective Leads For Your MLM or Business Opportunity      
Message-ID: <3C0694E500001B30@dldatactr.dlevans.com> (added by dldatactr.dlevans.com)

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From cme at acm.org  Sun Dec  2 21:24:56 2001
From: cme at acm.org (Carl Ellison)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 21:24:56 -0800
Subject: CFP: PKI research workshop
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011202212332.033c6960@idiom.com>

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From info4profit at alloymail.com  Sun Dec  2 21:52:19 2001
From: info4profit at alloymail.com (info4profit at alloymail.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:52:19
Subject: Fresh, Cost-effective Leads For Your MLM or Business Opportunity   
Message-ID: <3C0694E500003F3E@dldatactr.dlevans.com> (added by dldatactr.dlevans.com)

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From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Dec  2 22:15:20 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:15:20 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:29:07PM -0600
References: <3C09CD31.10863.4D32372@localhost> 
Message-ID: <20011202221520.B841@navel.introspect>

on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:29:07PM -0600, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> 
> > Our main interest in reputations is that the value of
> > someone's reputation will stop them from doing bad things.
> 
> Actually not, most folks use reputations to do away with security checks
> they would use othewise. It's a sellers cost cutting measure. If you have
> a 'good' reputation my cost of diong secure and reliable business will
> probably(!!!) be lower.

Empirically demonstrated, on eBay, per the Economist.  Premium content
online:

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%26%2BX8%2EQQ%23%25%0A


Nutshell summary:  reputation nets a 6.8% price advantage (a photo gets
you 11.3%).

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 06:15:28 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:15:28 +1100
Subject: Project hammer
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203010704.00a1aeb0@pop.useoz.com>


Sorry for that P-P SOC post,It was supposed to come to me,I blame a 
thunderstorm here and a change of firewall.
The following is something Id like some more information on along with all 
you've got on an alleged echelon base in Dominica.Its private,runs on 
geothermal and may have access to pine gap,omega,singSAT,etc 
TIA.matty.themoonisaS+Mmisstress.Taylor.PS.Hope the change to Mojo goes as 
well as the euro switch.

Subject: project hammer file


US Brigadier General Erle Cocke, a major player in
the world of covert operations and the former Washington "office" of the
CIA's
Nugan Hand Bank.


Erle Cocke was a banker before a black operative - but he combined both
skills working quietly as a fixer for "every President since Truman." He
was an Alternate Executive Director of the World Bank for four years and a
member of the US delegation to the UN for two years running, with the pay
and
rank of a US Ambassador. General Cocke was also a Knight of Malta and a
Shriner Mason. He died 10 days after making his deposition.


What he says in his deposition is explosive. He leaves no doubt about the
reality of the secretive world of Collateral Trading Programmes and how they
produce "from thin air" hundreds of billions and trillions of dollars in the
blink of an electronic eye.


* Once created these slush funds are used in a variety of way. Read how.


* Find out why former Nugan Hand Bank boss, General Erle Cocke, fingers
former Citibank Chairman & CEO, John Reed.


* Learn how TRILLIONS of dollars are created in the blink of an electronic
eye for later use in covert operations.


* See how the dirty profits from the drugs n' guns trade are privately
laundered
through the banking system -- it isn't like you think it is.


* Discover the South African connection to the Nugan Hand story.


* Read how the Chinese military controlled the South African spook bank that
took over where Nugan Hand Bank left off. Why was a mainland Chinese General
in the Seventh Army region of Xin Xong running this bank?


* What was East Germany's Stasi intelligence connection to this whole
affair?


* What about the NEW French Connection? Seven months before the Berlin Wall
came down, did the French central bank issue a US$7 billion Gold Bullion
Certificate to Erich Honecker, East Germany's then Head of State?


* How do Britain's private spook and intelligence network, Executive
Outlines and Sandline, fit in to this picture?


These and many other issues are addressed in the ground-breaking story THE
PROJECT HAMMER FILE, the first of many other revelations to come.


David Guyatt

THE PROJECT HAMMER FILE




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 01:27:21 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:27:21 -0800
Subject: 256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File
  Storage
In-Reply-To: 
References: <000401c17a53$321cff80$5a01a8c0@adam>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011202163543.033ae5b0@idiom.com>


At 04:31 PM 12/01/2001 -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
>Another proprietary key format. Why not base such a system on OpenPGP?

OpenPGP, ClosedPGP, GPG, PGP2.x, and X.509 all have blazingly ugly data 
formats,
especially for keys.  The main advantages of recycling one of the
N variations on PGP formats or one of the K variations on X.509
are that you can reuse code, and in some cases you can gain compatibility
with existing user bases.  On the other hand, you can gain compatibility
with existing user bases by letting PGP users sign messages saying
"My Cryptoheaven Public Key For Messages is  and for Signatures is 
"
and similarly letting X.509 users do the same if they want.
It's not automated, but it can work ok.

Also, of course, you'd need to register the Rijndael and SHA-256
entities onto the **PG** formatspaces, but they're generally designed for it.

The cleanest key format I've seen is in CryptoKong - it has the
advantage that Elliptic Curve cryptosystems let you use short keys,
at least if you believe that the math works adequately,
and it's not trying to use any "KeyID" as an abbreviation for the key,
so it's just a simple direct encoding of the key,
without PGP's annoyances of KeyID lookup and risks of KeyID forgery.
Of course, it's also not mapping KeyIDs to users, only to messages,
so if you want to maintain relationships between them,
you've got to do it yourself, and if you want to have
senders of some messages vet senders of other messages,
you need to track the messages yourself.  James Donald's implementation
uses an Evil Microsoft Access database to save messages,
but you could do a different implementation if you wanted to.

Was the real motivation for using their own format simplicity?
Or not-invented-here-ness?  Or not-thinking-ness?
Or unwillingness to wade through the huge amount of existing ugly code
just for compatibility with existing ugly formats?
Does it matter much?  They're in the Software / Internet Services business,
so either they'll find a niche where they get lots of users
(in which case it's worth reviewing their code for real security),
or they'll fail to do so and Darwin Will Get Them,
like so many other projects out there, or they'll end up with a
small but fanatic group of users who keep them going,
or somebody will discover a Serious Bug which will blow away their security
(though they do have at least semi-open source available for review.)




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 01:56:55 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:56:55 -0800
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3C069E70.7148.4E7CF4@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203014543.033d2c10@idiom.com>


That traceroute looks suspiciously like it's going to
Philadelphia.  (Second prize, TWO nameservers in Philadelphia...)
The www site's there also, safely and reliably on dry land.

However, if you do a traceroute to Ryan's remailer.havenco.com,
you'll see a path that goes quickly to London, to "unknown.level3.net",
then quickly to "havenco-gw", then with much more delay to
213.169.220.162, then with similar delay to remailer.havenco.com.

Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing,
putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance
for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts
and more paranoid material over in Sealand.
Certainly they'd want to have basic advertising material
and some of their DNS mirrors on dry land.

Also, it's interesting that the whois record for havenco.com
is registered from Cyprus.


At 11:00 PM 11/29/2001 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>
> > And when victory was well in hand, they shut down not merely
> > havenco,
>
>Looks OK to me:
>
>Tracing route to havenco.com [207.106.3.14]
>
>over a maximum of 30 hops:
>
>   1   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  r01.fl.datapacket.net [208.195.14.225]
>   2   <10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  loopback0.gw8.orl1.alter.net [137.39.8.117]
>   3    20 ms    40 ms    20 ms  165.at-1-0-0.xr1.atl1.alter.net 
> [152.63.86.170]
>   4    10 ms    20 ms    20 ms  100.at-1-0-0.tr1.atl1.alter.net 
> [146.188.232.82]
>   5    20 ms    31 ms    30 ms  109.at-5-0-0.tr1.dca6.alter.net 
> [146.188.141.58]
>   6    30 ms    30 ms    30 ms  0.so-4-0-0.xr1.dca6.alter.net 
> [152.63.11.102]
>   7    30 ms    30 ms    30 ms  0.so-1-3-0.xl1.dca6.alter.net 
> [152.63.35.114]
>   8    30 ms    31 ms    30 ms  pos6-0.br3.dca6.alter.net [152.63.38.117]
>   9    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  204.255.174.74
>  10    30 ms    60 ms    31 ms  mae-east-gsr.dc-core.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.31.26]
>  11   120 ms   280 ms   310 ms  mae-east.dc-core.netaxs.net [207.106.31.29]
>  12    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  dc-l3.dc-core.fddi0-0-100m.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.127.102]
>  13    40 ms    40 ms    40 ms  phl-l3.phl-core.h3-0-45m.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.127.129]
>  14    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  l3-core1-oc3.sdfc.phl.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.3.246]
>  15    60 ms    41 ms    40 ms  core1-cnsh-gige-1.cnsh.phl.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.0.10]
>  16    40 ms    40 ms    40 ms  ns1.havenco.com [207.106.3.14]
>
>Trace complete.
>
>
>The www site is up too.  Possibly you misunderstood their temporary outage?





From isn at c4i.org  Mon Dec  3 00:04:24 2001
From: isn at c4i.org (InfoSec News)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 02:04:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ISN] InfoSec News List Information
Message-ID: 

Just a little note, if you know of another site archiving ISN posts,
please drop me a line so I can list them on the webpages and such.

Thanks!

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wk at c4i.org

-=-

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[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 02:23:41 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 02:23:41 -0800
Subject: Bookstores and von Mises - was: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011129173020.A7819@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203020427.033da690@idiom.com>


At 10:36 PM 11/29/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>ps What kind of bookstore would have books about von Mises' life and
>economic philosophy in their economic section but wouldn't actually carry
>any of his work, what's up with that...Barnes & Nobles?

von Mises has been dead for a while and his publisher is
probably not actively running wholesale specials.

Besides, he's like one of those Tedious Dead White Male Classics authors;
nobody actually reads him, they just read commentaries
or literary criticisms on him, or the Cliff Notes or comic-book
"von Mises For Beginners" versions (don't know if they've done him,
but the Heidegger one makes it palatable to at least approach Heidegger* :-)
or more likely, economics/politics textbooks by people who have occasional
references to von Mises but haven't actually read his work,
just the commentaries/litcrit/cliffnotes/comics about him.

An interesting "why don't bookstores carry ____" event happened a
couple of years ago.  Some lefties ranting for independent bookstores
and against big chain bookstores here in San Francisco commented that
"if you look in the big box monoculture bookstores, you won't find Chomsky"
(I think this was a Tom Tomorrow cartoon - bookstore droid replies
"Politics?  We've got lots of Rush Limbaugh over in Aisle 7")
A couple weeks later I looked at Borders, and sure enough they had
several Chomsky titles in their index and at least one on the shelf.
Don't know if they'd always been there, or if it was a rapid response
by a very clueful big chain trying to head off bad publicity
and zoning hassles.

                                         Bill

(*One-line summary of Heidegger:
You're going to die and be really truly dead.  Get used to it and quit 
bullshitting.)




From zetaportsend at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 04:30:58 2001
From: zetaportsend at yahoo.com (Valerie Patterson)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 04:30:58
Subject: Hey you.
Message-ID: <90.644662.137944@yahoo.com>



FREE Seduction eBook:

Sweep Women Off Their Feet and Into Your Bed (120 Full Pages!)

+plus

FREE Seduction Articles
FREE Seduction Links


...and much, much more, all under one roof.


Simply reply to this email to receive more information.

To be remove from our mailing list, send and email to:

rem_listsrvr at yahoo.com




From proff at iq.org  Sun Dec  2 09:55:12 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 04:55:12 +1100 (EST)
Subject: dead reporter found in motel
In-Reply-To: <20011202111619.A8097@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011202175512.8F3A1259C3@suburbia.net>


> On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:49AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> > That's the first thing you have ever written that was genuinely worth
> > reading!  Keep practicing, and in three or four hundred years you could be
> > the "GreatGreatReallyGreatGrandsonOfGomez(tM)".
> 
> Yeah, it wasn't terrible. But it wasn't up there with the Linux
> Chainsaw Massacre either.
> 
> -Declan

Xenix.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 10:16:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 05:16:11 +1100
Subject: 400 motels
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203045933.00a1e7f0@pop.useoz.com>


Im a writer like your an anarchist.
I did read a funny story in PC authority,this systems consultant gets paid 
an exorbinate fee to test an array for redundancy.
The one and only test is a classic,first ask sweaty designer/contractor; 
"you have absolute faith that taking one server out will not bring down the 
lot?"
When the answer is ,"yes"
Go out to car and come back with large chainsaw,hold over individual 
machine and 'hey presto'
Maybe its not totally secure just yet.
True (magazine) story,I think by guy named 'honeyball.'

I got an offwire from 'pugsley',Ill ask him if you can see it if you 
like.As far as OSD goes,I see the gays are practising strategic melt so Im 
hoping sea sheperd might fill the breach.The lunar anti-abortion right are 
getting a head start!




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 10:25:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 05:25:49 +1100
Subject: 'software error' 37,000 to cato.a "libertarian" institute.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203052329.00a202f0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.mediatransparency.org/Stories/bradley_error.htm

Lie down with dogs declan...




From optin_edirect at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 05:38:49 2001
From: optin_edirect at yahoo.com (Alley Maurer)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:38:49
Subject: Hello again.
Message-ID: <35.561638.831538@yahoo.com>



FREE Seduction eBook:

Sweep Women Off Their Feet and Into Your Bed (120 Full Pages!)

+plus

FREE Seduction Articles
FREE Seduction Links


...and much, much more, all under one roof.


Simply reply to this email to receive more information.

To be remove from our mailing list, send and email to:

rem_listsrvr at yahoo.com




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 11:18:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:18:02 +1100
Subject: VOTE for DECLAN
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203061558.00a258c0@pop.useoz.com>


The Milton Friedman Prize for the Advancement of Liberty
The first Milton Friedman Prize will be presented at the Cato Institute's 
25th anniversary dinner May 9, 2002. The $500,000 cash award will be 
presented to one individual whose accomplishments and achievements best 
advance the cause of liberty. Click here for more information and to 
nominate someone for the award.

OR arbusto pinochet or roger in NZ,hell vote for ME!




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 11:40:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:40:11 +1100
Subject: The Cato Institute,a 'Libertarian' organisation.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203063754.00a38c00@pop.useoz.com>


Please join us for a wide-ranging discussion of this subject featuring 
Timothy Lynch, director, Project on Criminal Justice, Cato Institute; 
Michael Nardotti, Major General, U. S. Army (ret.), former Judge Advocate 
General; Lee Casey, Baker & Hostetler; and Joseph Robert Barnes, Brigadier 
General, U.S. Army (ret.), former Assistant Judge Advocate General for 
Military Law.
What's In a Label?: Right-Wing Think Tanks Often Quoted, ...
... its budget comes from corporate donations. ... 1,323, 1,401. Cato 
Institute, conservative/libertarian,
1,286, 1 ... RAND Corporation, center-right, 865, 826. Council ...
www.fair.org/extra/9805/think-tanks.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

The Think Tank Spectrum
... Backed by corporate funding, including donations ... Cato Institute, 
conservative/libertarian,
1163. RAND Corporation, center-right, 795. Urban Institute, ...
www.fair.org/extra/9605/tank.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.fair.org ]

The Swarm Of The Right: Myth Of The Liberal Media
... think tanks - Brookings, Cato, Heritage and AEI, all conservative or 
centrist -
were ... tanks - especially right and center ... are largely 
corporate-funded, and ...
www.commondreams.org/views/061900-101.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

IPA Articles - Cato Institute
... Libertarian" in a Corporate Way. ... book "No Mercy: How Conservative 
Think Tanks and ... over
the years. Cato's main philanthropic backing ... come from the right-wing 
Koch ...
Description: Article explores the Cato Institute's funding and advocacy, 
which include large tobacco industry funding...
Category: Health > Addictions > Substance Abuse > Tobacco > Industry > 
Supporters
www.accuracy.org/articles/cato.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

Left, Right & Babyboom: America's New Politics
... authors in Left, Right & Babyboom: America's ... H. Crane President, 
Cato Institute;
Marvin ... Liberal and Conservative; William Schneider ... of the Corporate 
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www.cato.org/pubs/books/left-rgt.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Activism, Co-op America: green, responsible, sustainable, just ...
... foundation and the Cato Institute have not ... corporate giving extend? 
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with a strong conservative ethic support the far right through their ...
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Chart B: The Funders of the Attack on Environmental ...
... the leaders in corporate-funded grassroots political ... Enterprise 
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www.corpwatch.org/trac/greenwash/ed_chart2.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Wealthy think tanks CAQ
... target network; and Corporate Relations to business and ... immigration 
policy; the Cato
Forum on the ... with the right-wing Family ... of the conservative 
revolution" at ...
www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Democracy/WealthyThinkTanks.html - 13k - Cached 
- Similar pages

TAP: Vol 9, Iss. 40. Lessons of Right-Wing Philanthropy. ...
... identified less often. Corporate funders were rarely ... ideologically 
explicit Heritage,
Cato, and American ... politics of right-wing think ... Conservative think 
tanks ...
www.prospect.org/print/V9/40/paget-k.html - 48k - Cached - Similar pages 




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 12:05:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 07:05:21 +1100
Subject: HAZMAT Licence's for sale
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203065115.00a3b7b0@pop.useoz.com>


Tony Soprano's international waste recycling arm has authorized me to offer 
you several toxic waste disposal licences for a brief time 
only.Specializing in glowing radioactive waste is the safest level since 
emile had that accident with the liquid acid.Dont forget you can 
sub-contract,just keep a few gold dump trucks handy.Leave encrypted bids at 
NJ IMC or deli me.

Theres a piece on ideological toxic waste disposal at 
http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=15739&group=webcast




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 12:21:09 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 07:21:09 +1100
Subject: : Guardian Unlimited Observer | International | FBI agents
  rebel over new powers  
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203071453.00a3f9d0@pop.useoz.com>


Thanks james,this is exciting news,makes it easier to smoke out the evil 
doers and get them on the run.

Subject: ashcroft and Muellar.Pork belly futures market.Online shortselling 
P.I.Gs
(persons impersonating govt servants)
"The Internet is a virtual place where copies of everything proliferate. 
There are no Internet authorities as such, with the exception of those 
whose task is to make the net function. It doesn't have an owner, and won't 
unless a super-power emerges to control it," he told the Weekly. 
Cyberspace, he argued, belongs to all those who participate in it. "We 
cannot let it be a playground where only cats are allowed in and mice are 
banished."'('Naguib.egypt poet/rebel )

Or...R.A.T.S... radical assembly of tactical sentencing.An operation soft 
drill international co-production now collecting for the ashcroft to 
arlington airfare defrayal fund,please pledge generously,thanks.(my proffr 
1$)More to Follow.Mmmmmmmm.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 13:06:46 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:06:46 +1100
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist (Im a libertarian socialist!)
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203073248.00a235f0@pop.useoz.com>


"Anarcho capitalism corresponds to what any normal person
would call anarchy"

Who said I was normal? Normal for norte america Yes,maybe.(just say 'so')

>Explanations of "anarcho" socialism are evasive, euphemistic
>and full of equivocations

I dont remember seeing any,Its usually anarchism or libertarian socialism 
or anarcho-syndicalism Isnt it?

When they go into detail, for
example par-econ, they describe in pleasant sounding words a
system more centralized and authoritarian in form and theory
than Stalin's was in form and theory, and often more
centralized and authoritarian even in theory than Maoism was
in actual practice.

I dont recall.Could you cite anarchist stalins and mao's,please?

"before 1936 there were various unclear,
confused, self contradictory, but undeniably sincere
proposals as to how to implement anarcho socialism"

Such as Italian factory occupations?Malatesta who predicted ww2 as ww1 
started was confused? What you say may be true but does it apply to 
anarcho-SYNDICALISM?
Unclear,confused, self contradictory, but undeniably insincere seems to 
apply to someone.

"Then
disaster struck. They actually had a go at it, with entirely
predictable results.  The contradiction between socialism and
anarchism was demonstrated with the usual rivers of blood.
Some became disillusioned.  Some reinterpreted their now
inconvenient past positions as standard socialism. "

Disaster struck for many reasons and it was not all as grim as the stories 
you put on the web.You could cite many more sources on your site that you 
wont thus letting people get away with questioning your honesty and 
motives.I simply agree with those that call you a liar on Spain(you also 
have useful stuff elsewhere, so not being a dead loss)

The anarcho-capitalism you and tim seem so fond of would not survive long 
without all the instruments of state repression backing it up.How long 
would NIKE last in an anarchist world? McDonalds? Monsanto?

Thanks for responding,see you at the 'punks.         matthew  proffr  taylor.

Ive just unpacked my PGP but have yet to read the user manual.The intro by 
phill is cool.Dig sig pending.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Dec  3 08:25:05 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:25:05 -0800
Subject: ashcroft still buggering freedom
Message-ID: <3C0BA761.B9672245@sarin.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20011201/ts/ashcroft_seeking_to_free_f_b_i_to_spy_on_groups_1.html

Saturday December 01 09:01 AM EST

Ashcroft Seeking to Free F.B.I. to Spy on Groups

By DAVID JOHNSTON and DON VAN NATTA Jr. The New York Times

Attorney General John Ashcroft is considering a plan to relax
restrictions on the F.B.I.'s spying on religious
and political organizations.

                      WASHINGTON, Nov. 30 Attorney General John Ashcroft
is considering a plan to relax
                      restrictions on the F.B.I.'s spying on religious
and political organizations in the United States,
                      senior government officials said today.

                      The proposal would loosen one of the most
fundamental restrictions on the conduct of the
                      Federal Bureau of Investigation and would be
another step by the Bush administration to
                      modify civil-liberties protections as a means of
defending the country against terrorists, the
                      senior officials said.

                      The attorney general's surveillance guidelines
were imposed on the F.B.I. in the 1970's after the
                      death of J. Edgar Hoover and the disclosures that
the F.B.I. had run a widespread domestic
                      surveillance program, called Cointelpro, to
monitor antiwar militants, the Ku Klux Klan, the
                      Black Panthers and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King
Jr., among others, while Mr. Hoover was
                      director.

                      Since then, the guidelines have defined the
F.B.I.'s operational conduct in investigations of
                      domestic and overseas groups that operate in the
United States.

                      Some officials who oppose the change said the
rules had largely kept the F.B.I. out of politically
motivated investigations, protecting the bureau from embarrassment and
lawsuits. But others, including senior Justice
Department officials, said the rules were outmoded and geared to
obsolete investigative methods and had at times
hobbled F.B.I. counterterrorism efforts.

Mr. Ashcroft and the F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, favor the
change, the officials said. Most of the opposition
comes from career officials at the F.B.I. and the Justice Department.

A Justice Department spokeswoman said today that no final decision had
been reached on the revised guidelines.

"As part of the attorney general's reorganization," said Susan Dryden,
the spokeswoman, "we are conducting a
comprehensive review of all guidelines, policies and procedures. All of
these are still under review."

An F.B.I. spokesman said the bureau's approach to terrorism was also
under review.

"Director Mueller's view is that everything should be on the table for
review," the spokesman, John Collingwood, said.
"He is more than willing to embrace change when doing so makes us a more
effective component. A healthy review
process doesn't come at the expense of the historic protections inherent
in our system."

The attorney general is free to revise the guidelines, but Justice
Department officials said it was unclear how heavily they
would be revised. There are two sets of guidelines, for domestic and
foreign groups, and most of the discussion has
centered on the largely classified rules for investigations of foreign
groups.

The relaxation of the guidelines would follow administration measures to
establish military tribunals to try foreigners
accused of terrorism; to seek out and question 5,000 immigrants, most of
them Muslims, who have entered the United
States since January 2000; and to arrest more than 1,200 people, nearly
all of whom are unconnected to the terrorist
attacks of Sept. 11, and hold hundreds of them in jail.

Today, Mr. Ashcroft defended his initiatives in an impassioned speech to
United States attorneys.

"Our efforts have been deliberate, they've been coordinated, they've
been carefully crafted to not only protect America
but to respect the Constitution and the rights enshrined therein," Mr.
Ashcroft said.

"Still," he added, "there have been a few voices who have criticized.
Some have sought to condemn us with faulty facts
or without facts at all. Others have simply rushed to judgment, almost
eagerly assuming the worst of their government
before they've had a chance to understand it at its best."

Under the current surveillance guidelines, the F.B.I. cannot send
undercover agents to investigate groups that gather at
places like mosques or churches unless investigators first find probable
cause, or evidence leading them to believe that
someone in the group may have broken the law. Full investigations of
this sort cannot take place without the attorney
general's consent.

Since Sept. 11, investigators have said, Islamic militants have
sometimes met at mosques apparently knowing that the
religious institutions are usually off limits to F.B.I. surveillance
squads. Some officials are now saying they need broader
authority to conduct surveillance of potential terrorists, no matter
where they are.

Senior career F.B.I. officials complained that they had not been
consulted about the proposed change a criticism they
have expressed about other Bush administration counterterrorism
measures. When the Justice Department decided to
use military tribunals to try accused terrorists, and to interview
thousands of Muslim men in the United States, the
officials said they were not consulted.

Justice Department officials noted that Mr. Mueller had endorsed the
administration's proposals, adding that the
complaints were largely from older F.B.I. officials who were resistant
to change and unwilling to take the aggressive
steps needed to root out terror in the United States. Other officials
said the Justice Department had consulted with F.B.I.
lawyers and some operational managers about the change.

But in a series of recent interviews, several senior career officials at
the F.B.I. said it would be a serious mistake to
weaken the guidelines, and they were upset that the department had not
clearly described the proposed changes.

"People are furious right now very, very angry," one of them said. "They
just assume they know everything. When you
don't consult with anybody, it sends the message that you assume you
know everything. And they don't know
everything."

Still, some complaints seem to stem from the F.B.I.'s shifting status
under Mr. Ashcroft. Weakened by a series of
problems that predated the Sept. 11 attacks, the F.B.I. has been forced
to follow orders from the Justice Department a
change that many law enforcement experts thought was long overdue. In
the past, the bureau leadership had far more
independence and authority to make its own decisions.

Several senior officials are leaving the F.B.I., including Thomas J.
Pickard, the deputy director. He was the senior
official in charge of the investigation of the attacks and was among top
F.B.I. officials who were opposed to another
decision of the Bush administration, the public announcements of Oct. 12
and Oct. 29 that placed the country on the
highest state of alert in response to vague but credible threats of a
possible second terrorist attack. Mr. Pickard is said to
have been opposed to publicizing threats that were too vague to provide
any precautionary advice.

Many F.B.I. officials regard the administration's plan to establish
military tribunals as an extreme step that diminishes the
F.B.I.'s role because it creates a separate prosecutorial system run by
the military.

"The only thing I have seen about the tribunals is what I have seen in
the newspapers," a senior official complained.

Another official said many senior law enforcement officials shared his
concern about the tribunals. "I believe in the rule
of law, and I believe if we have a case to make against someone, we
should make it in a federal courtroom in the United
States," he said.

Several senior F.B.I. officials said the tribunal system should be
reserved for senior Al Qaeda members apprehended by
the military in Afghanistan or other foreign countries.

Few were involved in deliberations that led to the directive Mr.
Ashcroft issued this month to interview immigrant men
living legally in the United States. F.B.I. officials have complained
that the interview plan was begun before its
ramifications were fully understood.

"None of this was thought through, a senior official said. "They just
announced it, and left it to others to figure out how
to do it."

The arrests and detentions of more than 1,200 people since Sept. 11 have
also aroused concerns at the F.B.I. Officials
noted that the investigations had found no conspirators in the United
States who aided the hijackers in the Sept. 11
attacks and only a handful of people who were considered Al Qaeda
members.

"This came out of the White House, and Ashcroft's office," a senior
official said. "There are tons of things coming out
of there these days where there is absolutely no consultation with the
bureau."

Some at the F.B.I. have been openly skeptical about claims that some of
the 1,200 people arrested were Al Qaeda
members and that the strategy of making widespread arrests had disrupted
or thwarted planned attacks.

"It's just not the case," an official said. "We have 10 or 12 people we
think are Al Qaeda people, and that's it. And for
some of them, it's based only on conjecture and suspicion."




From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Dec  3 08:34:49 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:34:49 -0800
Subject: Reichstag Anthrax: not just greenpeace suggesting it..
Message-ID: <3C0BA9A9.8D97AA8@sarin.com>


excerpt from http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/03/national/03POWD.html

The preliminary analysis of the powder
shows that it has the same extraordinarily high concentration of deadly
spores as the
anthrax produced in the American weapons program. While it is still
possible that the
anthrax could have a foreign source, the concentration is higher than
any stock publicly
known to be produced by other governments.

The similarity to the levels achieved by the United States military
lends support to the idea
that someone with ties to the old program may be behind the attacks that
have killed five
people. The Federal Bureau of Investigation recently expanded its
investigation of anthrax
suspects to include government and contractor laboratories as a possible
source of the
deadly powder itself, or of knowledge of how to make it.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Mon Dec  3 09:26:19 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:26:19 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <3C0B81AE.B85212C8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3C0B453B.25540.F81AC27@localhost>


On 3 Dec 2001, at 13:44, Ken Brown wrote:

> All the discussion about certificates of speaking Navajo or whatever are
> slightly beside the point. If personal reputation, as such, has a market
> value it isn't the money you'd get by selling the reputation, because as
> everyone else already pointed out, if you could sell it, it wouldn't
> really be a reputation. 

Well, I thought so, but apparently not everyone does, since there's
been a certain amount of discussion as to whether a nym might be
sold (with associated reputation) and if so how it might be 
accomplished. 

>The market value of a personal reputation is the
> extra money you could get by selling something else, backed by that
> reputation.
> 

OK, I like this as the basis of the value of a repuation  in the 
specific context of an entity that sells goods and services.
I think the concept of reputation in the sense of, say, something
that helps you identify posts worth reading is sufficiently
different as to merit separate discussion. But back to your
above statement. Obviously the value of the rep isn't the
extra you get from a single transaction.  Does it seem reasonable 
to say that  the total value of the rep should be the total
annual extra you get from having the rep times some constant?
I think technically it should be the discounted future value stream,
but I think that works out to be pretty much the same thing.  

George




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Dec  3 06:28:16 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:28:16 -0500
Subject: [ISN] InfoSec News List Information
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Dec  3 09:37:46 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:37:46 -0800
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist (Im a libertarian socialist!)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203073248.00a235f0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0B47EA.3038.67418E@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > "Anarcho capitalism corresponds to what any normal person
> > would call anarchy"

mattd
> Who said I was normal?

If you use the word anarchy to refer to something that is
very far from anarchy as it is normally understood, without
explaining that you are using a special and unusual meaning,
this is lying.  If you were to say:

: : 	"I am an anarchist, but by anarchist I mean a
: : 	really really really democratic and decentralized
: : 	government exercising all power and total power
: : 	over every person's action and every good, with a
: : 	general committee to decide all matters of
: : 	general interest and authorize any truly
: : 	necessary use of force"

most people would say:
: :	 "You are not an anarchist, you are a democratic
: :	 socialist -- we already went through that stuff
: :	 in the twentieth century. On those rare
: :	 occasions when they were both actually
: :	 democratic, and actually socialist, the economy
: :	 collapsed and they got voted out the next
: :	 elections."

James A. Donald:
> When they go into detail, for example par-econ, they
> describe in pleasant sounding words a system more
> centralized and authoritarian in form and theory than
> Stalin's was in form and theory, and often more centralized
> and authoritarian even in theory than Maoism was in actual
> practice.

mattd:
> I dont recall.Could you cite anarchist stalins and
> mao's,please?

If you call the what the authors of ParEcon propose
anarchism, then PolPot was as much an anarchist as they were,
Stalin ten times as much an anarchist as they were, and Mao
one hundred times.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     OQYECo7+gyIrQKctq60cC1UvKMKkPdfA7ARhBGkw
     4UK2wPuK5XGJbFyc2DKUBMmRzR7WU8jLgbvndXR7N




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 09:46:52 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:46:52 -0800
Subject: IT revealed: Dean Kamen shows off mystery transportion
  device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203095050.023a5150@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203092852.033cd630@idiom.com>


At 09:53 AM 12/03/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh forwarded articles on
the Ginger Hype Generation Machine finally being revealed.

Boy, what bad timing Kamen has.  Not only is it too late for
Christmas sales (if in fact the things are shipping anytime soon,
as opposed to this being a demo for next Christmas shipping),
but overall it's a year or two too late to catch the Razor Scooter fad
and the San Francisco geek toys market, where there are
some people still commuting on $500 electric scooters
(Doug Barnes used to haul one on Caltrain, for instance),
but an N-thousand-dollar device that's only usable for short hauls
within cities, it'll be a real tough sell.

The real question is whether, next year when he's trying to sell quantity,
anybody will list to the next round of hype.  On the other hand,
this announcement is at least timed to keep people from
totally forgetting him as more dot-com vaporware,
so maybe it's not that bad timing after all.




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Dec  3 07:02:44 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:02:44 -0500 (est)
Subject: Fw: [Fwd: Fw: Cow philosophy] (fwd)
Message-ID: 


Speaking of cows and poly-ticks...



THE "TWO COW" EXPLANATION OF WHAT MAKES...



A CHRISTIAN DEMOCRAT:
You have two cows.You keep one and give one to your neighbor.



A SOCIALIST:
You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your
neighbor.



AN AMERICAN REPUBLICAN:
You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So what?



AN AMERICAN DEMOCRAT:
You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being
successful. You vote people into office who tax your cows, forcing you
to sell one to raise money to pay the tax. The people you voted for then
take the tax money and buy a cow and give it to your neighbor. You feel
righteous.



A COMMUNIST:
You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides you with
milk.



A FASCIST:
You have two cows. The government seizes both and sells you the milk.
You join the underground and start a campaign of sabotage.



DEMOCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE:
You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point you have to
sell both to support a man in a foreign country who has only one cow,
which was a gift from your government.



CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE:
You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.



BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE:
You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the
other, pays you for the milk, then pours the milk down the drain.



AN AMERICAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk
of four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead.



A FRENCH CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows.



A JAPANESE CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of
an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. You then create
clever cow cartoon images called Cowkimon and market them World-Wide.



A GERMAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You reengineer them so they live for 100 years, eat
once a month, and milk themselves.



A BRITISH CORPORATION:
You have two cows. They are mad. They die. Pass the shepherd's pie,
please.



AN ITALIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You break for
lunch.



A RUSSIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You count them and learn you have five cows. You
count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and
learn you have 12 cows. You stop counting cows and open another bottle
of vodka.



A SWISS CORPORATION:
You have 5000 cows, none of which belong to you. You charge others for
storing them.



A BRAZILIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You enter into a partnership with an American
corporation. Soon you have 1000 cows and the American corporation
declares bankruptcy.



AN INDIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You worship both of them.



A CHINESE CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You have 300 people milking them. You claim full
employment, high bovine productivity, and arrest the newsman who
reported on them.



AN ISRAELI CORPORATION:
There are these two Jewish cows, right? They open a milk factory, an ice

cream store, and then sell the movie rights. They send their calves to
Harvard to become doctors. So, who needs people?



AN ARKANSAS CORPORATION:
You have two cows. That one on the left is kinda cute...





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec  3 10:17:32 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:17:32 -0800
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <3C0B453B.25540.F81AC27@localhost>
Message-ID: <05213906-E81A-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>



On Monday, December 3, 2001, at 09:26 AM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

> On 3 Dec 2001, at 13:44, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>> All the discussion about certificates of speaking Navajo or whatever 
>> are
>> slightly beside the point. If personal reputation, as such, has a 
>> market
>> value it isn't the money you'd get by selling the reputation, because 
>> as
>> everyone else already pointed out, if you could sell it, it wouldn't
>> really be a reputation.
>
> Well, I thought so, but apparently not everyone does, since there's
> been a certain amount of discussion as to whether a nym might be
> sold (with associated reputation) and if so how it might be
> accomplished.

This is "the reputation of a reputation."

As soon as people tumble to the fact that "Tom Clancy" has sold his 
nym/reputation to some hack writer, that is, let them put his name on 
their words, then the reputation of "Tom Clancy" falls.

Nothing new here. "Fisher" was a respected (high reputation) name in 
stereo equipment. (I don't like the term "reputation," due to issues 
I've discussed here, but I'm using it in the commonly understood sense.)

The name Fisher was bought by a Taiwan maker of equipment, and one can 
now see "Fisher" on boxes at Costco and Best Buy.

Draw your own conclusions. My own sense is that no one is fooled: those 
young enough not to know what "Fisher" once was don't care. Those old 
enough to know aren't fooled. I expect the brand name Fisher sold for 
very little money, reflecting all of these issues.

Lots of issues here. I'm still composing a longer essay in response to 
Wei Dai's and others' points. Some delays.


--Tim May
--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 10:48:14 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:48:14 -0800
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware:
  solutions)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203103637.033d0750@idiom.com>



>> > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS
>> > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing.
>> > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and
>> > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size
>> > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.)

Especially on Microsoft OSs, it's too easy to create logging
that doesn't look like a regular file for which you can watch
size or checksum changes.  Hidden files are trivial to use,
though many utilities ignore their hiddenness,
but with more work any good virus-writer can do a better
job of hiding a file.  Or you can find things that are
always changing for obscure Microsoftish reasons,
or look like devices that can't be checksummed.

Or you can store the data in the "unused" space at the end
of the last block in a file - especially as disks get larger,
disk blocks also get larger, so there's more space at the ends,
and any utilities that are checksumming files won't notice,
because it's not in the file.  Or you can store the data
in "unused" disk blocks, if you can keep the file system from
reaping them, though diskwipe utilities will occasionally catch these.
The unused block space _might_ sometimes be hidden or overwritten
by encrypted file systems, if you're using them; YMMV.

At 12:45 PM 12/03/2001 +0000, Gil Hamilton wrote:
>What techniques could be used to do this?  MD5 has some weaknesses,
>but creating collisions still is not trivial.  Unless you know
>something I don't.

Hans Dobbertin's work a couple of years ago makes MD5 sounds pretty shaky,
but you could also use SHA-1 for your checksums,
or your favorite non-crypto fast checksum.
But that's more work than the Fedz will bother with;
much easier to hide stuff on Windows than to hack checksums.









From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 10:49:55 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:49:55 -0800
Subject: Cryptoheaven
In-Reply-To: <073401c17be0$b084f9c0$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203104922.033bd0b0@idiom.com>


At 11:55 AM 12/03/2001 +0200, Marcel Popescu wrote:
>Anybody checked the license agreement?
>
>You hereby agree to not use the Service to:
>
>   1.. transmit or store any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening,
>abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous,
>invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise
>objectionable
>Hello? Unlawful is bad enough (no Chinese talking about the benefits of
>capitalism with this service), but "otherwise objectionable"?

It probably means "generates too many complaints to the operators" :-)




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Mon Dec  3 08:01:52 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:01:52 -0500
Subject: Council of Europe Cybercrime Treaty
Message-ID: <200112031603.KAA17323@einstein.ssz.com>



The full text is at 
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/WhatYouWant.asp?NT=185

Note that no signatories have signed, and it requires at least 5 to 
sign before going into force.

This is interesting because basically all of Western Europe's IP 
traffic crosses the U.S. at some point, and therefore creates some 
interesting ramifications for U.S. ISPs.... how do they respond to 
demands for subscriber records and copies of traffic?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
Visit http://www.FastCircle.com






From UNI-BROK_5 at .uni.eresmas.com  Mon Dec  3 02:32:07 2001
From: UNI-BROK_5 at .uni.eresmas.com (UNI-BROK)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:32:07 +0100
Subject: De su interes/Publi.enseanza
Message-ID: <200112031036.CAA18147@toad.com>


   
 
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Area Broker-Learning University
University Technology International
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uni3000 at navegalia.com
---------------
 
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remo_567 at eresmas.com
   
 




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Dec  3 08:38:53 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:38:53 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation
In-Reply-To: <20011201140536.A27178@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 



Thanks for the pointer, a very good essay indeed. :)

I haven't checked in any meaningful way, but that thread doesn't seem to
have any replies from Ralph...  Do you recall any details as to what would
cause oscillations?  Would be interesting to explore this.

I expect that having a way to prove collusion by checking who praises
whom, etc. would likely avoid such problems.  As would I suppose personal
observation of current behavior.

Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
least they're funny...)


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:00:33PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
> | 
> | Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400.  Then
> | I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so
> | now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620.
> 
> Interesting idea.  I proposed something very similar in
> http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00313.html Raph
> demonstrated a bit later that the system could be forced into
> oscilation and had other problems, although that might have been in
> person, not on list.
> 
> Adam
> 
> -- 
> Imminent death of the list predicted.  Film already in the
> archives, 11/95. 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Dec  3 08:42:17 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:42:17 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Ok, then I propose to surround your property from any vantage point on
public land, and setup gigantic speakers from which I would recite very
loud speeches in your direction at 3:00am.

As I would be on public land and excercising my freedom of speech, you
couldn't do anything as that would be censorship.  Or are you ready to
submit that "Congress shall make no law ... freedom of expression" only
applies to Congress?


Also, I didn't receive any reply from you on your views of the parable of
the ants and the cricket from your insane CACL thread...


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > But by preventing me from trespassing you're restricting my freedom of
> > speech!  According to you, that's illegal.
> 
> Not at all. You are still free to speak, just not on my property.
> 
> You have a right to engage in any behaviour until it infringes another.
> You're trespassing infringes my property right. My not allowing you entry
> doesn't effect your freedom of speech (only who is listening, which
> isn't a right).




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 01:49:16 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:49:16 +0200
Subject: 'software error' 37,000 to cato.a "libertarian" institute.
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203052329.00a202f0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <072201c17bdf$cda2da50$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "mattd" 

> http://www.mediatransparency.org/Stories/bradley_error.htm

Ok, someone PLEASE enlighten me... WHAT on Earth is the problem here? They
paid TOO MUCH in taxes, so they have to pay a fine???

Mark




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 01:55:50 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:55:50 +0200
Subject: Cryptoheaven
Message-ID: <073401c17be0$b084f9c0$5300a8c0@marcel>


Anybody checked the license agreement?

You hereby agree to not use the Service to:

  1.. transmit or store any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening,
abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous,
invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise
objectionable
Hello? Unlawful is bad enough (no Chinese talking about the benefits of
capitalism with this service), but "otherwise objectionable"?

Mark




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From: jasonk at funnymoney.com (Jason Kulpa)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:15:08 -0800
Subject: exclusive leads at non-exclusive prices
Message-ID: <200112031220241.SM00264@amanda>


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From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  3 12:45:49 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:45:49 
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions)
Message-ID: 


Karsten Self writes:
>on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:12:53PM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote:
>
> > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS
> > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing.
> >
> > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and
> > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size
> > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.)
>
>Defeat:  create a log buffer file of fixed size, logged activity changes
>its contents, but not the size of the file.  E.g.:  a filesystem image
>file under GNU/Linux.  Techniques could be used to maintain a constant
>global MD5 checksum to defeat other detection attempts.

What techniques could be used to do this?  MD5 has some weaknesses,
but creating collisions still is not trivial.  Unless you know
something I don't.

- GH


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Mon Dec  3 09:55:46 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:55:46 -0500
Subject: Council of Europe Cybercrime Treaty
Message-ID: <200112031757.LAA18513@einstein.ssz.com>



OUTBOUND traffic is what I meant, of course :)

Although, comedy aside, there's an interesting point herein: even a 
lot of traffic that you would normally assume would be intra-Western 
Europe traffic actually crosses into U.S. NAPs -- counterintuitively 
stupid, I know, but it happens more than you might imagine, 
especially for corporate traffic of multinationals and traffic 
inbound/outbound for webhosting companies that are European but in 
reality are getting their pipes from U.S. ISPs.

The same is true of PacRim traffic too, btw (in some cases, even more 
so -- a large percentage of Hong Kong to Australia traffic goes 
through the U.S., for example) -- although of course PacRim traffic 
is not covered by this agreement.


> mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:
>  
> > The full text is at
> > http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/WhatYouWant.asp?NT=185
> > 
> > Note that no signatories have signed, and it requires at least 5 
to
> > sign before going into force.
> > 
> > This is interesting because basically all of Western Europe's IP
> > traffic crosses the U.S. at some point, 
> 
> Que?
> 
> Tracing route to members.ams.chello.nl [62.108.1.126]
> over a maximum of 30 hops:
> 
>   1   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  193.61.22.245
>   2   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  144.82.19.103
>   3   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  144.82.255.17
>   4    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  128.40.255.29
>   5   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  128.40.20.190
>   6    30 ms    20 ms    20 ms  ulcc-gsr.lmn.net.uk [194.83.101.5]
>   7   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  london-bar1.ja.net [146.97.40.33]
>   8   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  linx-gw.ja.net [128.86.1.249]
>   9   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  LINXRT1.chello.com [195.66.224.89]
>  10    30 ms    30 ms    20 ms  uk-lon-rc-02-pos-5-
0.chellonetwork.com
> [213.46.1
> 60.57]
>  11    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  nl-ams-rc-01-pos-0-
0.chellonetwork.com
> [213.46.1
> 60.9]
>  12    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  nl-ams-rd-01-pos-1-
0.chellonetwork.com
> [213.46.1
> 60.14]
>  13    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  pos15-0.am00rt06.brain.upc.nl
> [213.46.161.54]
>  14    20 ms    30 ms    20 ms  srp10-0.am00rt02.brain.upc.nl
> [212.142.32.42]
>  15    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  srp0-0.am00rt03.brain.upc.nl
> [212.142.32.35]
>  16    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gig3-0-0.h0rtr1.a2000.nl 
[62.108.0.82]
>  17    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  members.ams.chello.nl [62.108.1.126]
> 
> Trace complete.
> 
> 


_______________________________________________________________________________
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From membership at winnerspaid.com  Mon Dec  3 12:58:18 2001
From: membership at winnerspaid.com (membership at winnerspaid.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:58:18 -0800
Subject: click here to drive away
Message-ID: <00002c3214f2$000058f8$00002baf@203.155.120.2>

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From membership at winnerspaid.com  Mon Dec  3 12:58:20 2001
From: membership at winnerspaid.com (membership at winnerspaid.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:58:20 -0800
Subject: click here to drive away
Message-ID: <00004630664b$000056ed$00002bb9@202.99.192.46>

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From membership at winnerspaid.com  Mon Dec  3 12:58:28 2001
From: membership at winnerspaid.com (membership at winnerspaid.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:58:28 -0800
Subject: details
Message-ID: <0000582b4ec4$00007cd4$00002bcf@202.230.124.2>

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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Dec  3 11:58:38 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:58:38 -0700
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
Message-ID: <3C0BD96E.E0AEEA31@lsil.com>


Faustine 
>Tim wrote:
>
>>This is "the reputation of a reputation."
>Ridiculous how so many employers put such stock in a word on a piece of
paper
>too--pure credentialism. How ironic when you contrast that with the
fact that
>the great Herman Kahn didn't have a PhD. I wonder where he'd end up
today.
>
>~Faustine.
>
What you're complaining about is behavior that is typical of
bureaucracies which often do what is easier instead of what is smarter,
better or right. In a bureaucracy your risk is minimized by following
procedure. Minimizing the risk of individuals within the organization is
not equivalent to optimizing the organization's performance. Hardly a
description of a control system that can keep away from the rails.

Mike




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Dec  3 04:17:40 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:17:40 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: FBI agents rebel over new powers (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:29:44 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: FBI agents rebel over new powers


>
>FBI agents rebel over new powers
>
>Liberty Watch: Observer campaign
>
>Ed Vulliamy in New York
>Sunday December 2, 2001
>The Observer
>
>The US Attorney General, John Ashcroft, was yesterday reported to be
>ready to relax restrictions on the FBI's powers to spy on religious
>and church-based political organisations.
>
>His proposal, leaked to the New York Times, would loosen limits on the
>FBI's surveillance powers, imposed in the 1970s after the death of its
>founder J. Edgar Hoover.
>
>The plan has caused outrage within the FBI itself with agents expected
>to act upon new surveillance powers describing themselves as 'very,
>very angry'.
>
>...
>
>http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,610381,00.html

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From ems at jrandom.com  Mon Dec  3 13:24:26 2001
From: ems at jrandom.com (Erik Seaberg)
Date: 03 Dec 2001 13:24:26 -0800
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and  
  implementation
In-Reply-To: Sunder's message of "Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:00:33 -0500 (est)"
References: 
Message-ID: <86oflg575h.fsf@unx51.staff.flyingcroc.net>


This is often known as "collaborative filtering", and pops up in
systems like NoCeM and GroupLens.  What's cool is that you don't need
transitive trust or even poster reputations (anonymity without so much
vandalism!).  Just give the right reviewers the reputation "good/bad
judgment about which articles are worth reading"--and you can find
them by reviewing some articles yourself and measuring similarity of
answers.  If reviewers aren't willing to highly rate articles they
disagree with there's a danger of shutting out unpopular ideas (a
common complaint about /. moderators), and you need a critical mass of
people willing to rate most of a forum to get started (and it can't be
much more than an extra keystroke or two or they won't bother).







From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Dec  3 05:44:14 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 13:44:14 +0000
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0B81AE.B85212C8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Tim May wrote:

[...]

> >
> > We're not disagreeing. By a "single" value I meant a universally
> > agreed upon value.
> 
> If there is a "universally agreed upon value" for something, and someone
> values it differently, is it still "universal"?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> What there may be are market-clearing prices, in various markets and at
> various times, but this has nothing to do with "universally agreed-upon
> values."


Tim got it right here. The market value of anything is not a universally
agreed price, it is any price at which a buyer and a seller can agree to
do business.

All the discussion about certificates of speaking Navajo or whatever are
slightly beside the point. If personal reputation, as such, has a market
value it isn't the money you'd get by selling the reputation, because as
everyone else already pointed out, if you could sell it, it wouldn't
really be a reputation. The market value of a personal reputation is the
extra money you could get by selling something else, backed by that
reputation.

That sort of reputation is used in real markets every day. I need to get
the hot water boiler in my flat fixed. I would be prepared to pay more
money to a plumber with whatever certificates of plumberhood plumbers
have than I would to someone I just happened to meet down the pub. I
might be happy to spend even more on someone who had done good work for
friends of mine. That sort of reputation has cash value.

It is even more important in pseudo-markets, like the ones in board
memberships of large corporations, or in public offices in the gift of
elected politicians. The kind of people who are called, in England, "The
Great and the Good" - an odd mixture of retired businessmen who have
made enough money, politicians who know they will never get to the top,
academics looking to increase their public profile, and the well-meaning
offspring of rich  and respectable families. Such people sit on
committees, and boards, and commissions, and inquiries, they run 
charities, and schools, and hospitals, and can make a career out of
nothing but reputation. Famous for not even being famous any more. Over
here in Britain we get them worse than  you Americans do do (though you
get them pretty bad, if the list of achievements of the board members of
a couple of US companies I have shares in is anything to go by) - we
have institutonalised it as the House of Lords. Yuck.

Ken Brown




From wolf at priori.net  Mon Dec  3 14:21:23 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:21:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN and Julie Hilden on the Evil of Anonymity
Message-ID: 


"Most of us now are happy, for example, to tolerate facial recognition
technology at stadiums, and to proffer our driver's licenses at frequent
car, truck and airport checkpoints. We no longer can travel anonymously,
and that may be acceptable given the risks we now face. But while the
ability to travel namelessly may be a prerogative we can sacrifice, what
about the right to speak anonymously?"

[...]

"Finally, to consider some more dramatic possibilities, the government
could launch a denial of service attack on any remaining anonymous
remailers, which guarantee the privacy of both the sender and receiver of
e-mail. It could also simply shut Anonymizer.com down, purportedly in the
interest of national security, or legislate any similar services away."

[...]

"Finally, even if the Court did recognize a First Amendment right to
anonymity that extended to private Internet communications, it is
important to remember that First Amendment-protected speech could be
curtailed, given a compelling government interest and a sufficiently
narrowly tailored government measure. And the compelling quality of the
interest in fighting terror is a given. "

[...]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/columns/fl.hilden.online.first.11.29/index.html




From Student_LRC at mail.clc.cc.il.us  Mon Dec  3 12:24:56 2001
From: Student_LRC at mail.clc.cc.il.us (Student)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:24:56 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000a01c17c38$935f6580$ff6619ac@lrc01>

Hey there,

I wanted to know if there is a way that I could use biothermal surveillance to spy on somebody. Is it possible to do that through the internet. Please let me know through mail. My e-mail address is maniacz at altavista.com
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Dec  3 06:27:39 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 14:27:39 +0000
Subject: Viridian Note 00283:  Geeks and Spooks (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0B8BDB.32750B11@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Eugene Leitl forwarded:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: 2 Dec 2001 23:23:55 -0000
> From: Bruce Sterling 
> To: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de
> Subject: Viridian Note 00283:  Geeks and Spooks
> 
> Key concepts: cryptography, information warfare,
> imaginary products, American national security

[...big article snipped...]

Yee-hah! The most poly-on-topic post that has a appeared in cypherpunks
for a while. Read it early and often. 

Except for the nasty bit about the British near the bottom of course. We
are friendly people really. We couldn't help getting that empire you
know. All you guys just sat around not looking after your countries at
all properly and without anywhere near enough artillery or steam
engines, what did you expect? Trade or something? If it hadn't have been
us it would have been the Germans, or the French, or the Spanish, and 
we're *much* nicer than them.

Ken Brown




From wolf at priori.net  Mon Dec  3 14:47:48 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:47:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <05213906-E81A-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> This is "the reputation of a reputation."
>
> As soon as people tumble to the fact that "Tom Clancy" has sold his
> nym/reputation to some hack writer, that is, let them put his name on
> their words, then the reputation of "Tom Clancy" falls.
>
> Nothing new here. "Fisher" was a respected (high reputation) name in
> stereo equipment. (I don't like the term "reputation," due to issues
> I've discussed here, but I'm using it in the commonly understood sense.)
>
> The name Fisher was bought by a Taiwan maker of equipment, and one can
> now see "Fisher" on boxes at Costco and Best Buy.
>
> Draw your own conclusions. My own sense is that no one is fooled: those
> young enough not to know what "Fisher" once was don't care. Those old
> enough to know aren't fooled. I expect the brand name Fisher sold for
> very little money, reflecting all of these issues.

It seems to me that the sale of the "reputation" is a red herring in these
cases. Tim's giving examples of instances where a particular brand's
reputation for a given level of quality became devalued when the brand's
product became inferior to products previously sold under the same brand
name.

I suspect that buyers of Fisher would find the sale of the name
unimportant, if the new Taiwanese owners continued to produce equipment of
the same caliber as the old Fisher.

It takes significantly longer to build a brand reputation than it does to
lose it. By purchasing another's name, one attempts to cut the "brand
building" stage short -- but it is necessary to live up to the
expectations associated with that brand.


-MW-




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Dec  3 05:55:39 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:55:39 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: Re:  Interesting Clarke interview in case you missed it (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 16:06:43 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Re:  Interesting Clarke interview in case you missed it


>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:50:33 -0800
>To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
>From: Jim Warren 
>
>>>Howard Schmidt, Microsoft's chief security officer, is expected to leave
>>>within the next month to join the Bush administration and work with White
>>>House cyber-security adviser Richard Clarke, according to sources in the
>>>computer-security industry.
>>>
>>>Mark Sachs, a U.S. Army major who is an operations analyst at the Joint
>>>Task Force for Computer Network Operations, also expected to join Clarke's
>>>team. The task force Sachs currently works for oversees the Pentagon's
>>>global information systems, sources said.
>
>Given
>
>(1) the pervasive-net-surveillance and freedom-to-snoop-sans-court-orders
>that Attorney General Ashcroft and Bush's federal agencies are pursuing so
>eagerly and aggressively, against American residents and citizens alike;
>
>(2) the endless security holes in Microsoft's software and MSN-network,
>that crackers and miscreants have exploited for years of virus and DDoS
>attacks, and
>
>(3) the fact that "the Pentagon's global information systems" can as
>easily refer to the military's *surveillance* systems, as to the DoD's MIS
>systems ...
>
>... then, one cannot help but wonder:
>
>How much time will Microsoft's "security" officer and the Pentagon's
>"global information" officer spend on improving government and/or
>corporate/citizen computer security ...
>
>... versus ...
>
>How much time will they spend on expanding and deploying the
>administration's long-existent Echelon
>dragnet/fishing-expedition/communications-surveillance system, and the
>FBI's recently-announced covert keystroke-grabbing software ...
>
>... into and onto all citizens' and organizations' computers?
>
>
>After all, one of the Republican's last Attorneys General before Aschroft --
>Reagan's Ed Meese -- made their perspective clear for all to see.  He
>said, "If a person is innocent of a crime, then he is not a suspect." (Of
>course, he said that *before* criminal investigators began investigating
>*him* around 1988.)
>
>And all the polls show that the public *supports* whatever it is that the
>administration is doing, including demolition of [other people's] personal
>privacy and civil liberties.
>
>All 'Right'-minded, properly-subservient citizens and business people
>should applaud this!  They're from the government; they're here to help us.
>
>--jim
>Jim Warren; jwarren at well.com, technology & public policy columnist & advocate
>
>[self-inflating puffery: Playboy Foundation Hugh Hefner First-Amendment Award;
>Soc.of Prof.Journalists-Nor.Calif. James Madison Freedom-of-Information Award;
>founded InfoWorld, Dr.Dobb's Journal, and Computers, Freedom & Privacy Confs.;
>Electronic Frontier Foundation's Pioneer Award (in its first year), blah blah]
>
>
>And if you think this is something new, remember the 1995 Republican
>Congress' legislation to legalize use of evidence obtained by unauthorized
>search -- as reported by Farber on his IP list at the time:
>
>So long, Fourth Amendment
>From: David Farber 
>Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:36:57 -0500
>... (Fri Jan 27), the House Judiciary Committee approved this abrogation
>of the Fourth Amendment, on a 19-14 vote, after breaking it out of H.R.3,
>"The Taking Back Our Streets Act of 1995":
>
>   In General.--Chapter 223 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by
> adding at the end the following:
>   "Sec. 3510. Admissibility of evidence obtained by search or seizure
>   "(a) Evidence Obtained by Objectively Reasonable Search or Seizure.--
> Evidence which is obtained as a result of a search or seizure shall not
> be excluded in a proceeding in a court of the United States on the ground
> that the search or seizure was in violation of the fourth amendment to
> the Constitution of the United States, if the search or seizure was
> carried out in circumstances justifying an objectively reasonable belief
> that it was in conformity with the fourth amendment. The fact that
> evidence was obtained pursuant to and within the scope of a warrant
> constitutes prima facie evidence of the existence of such circumstances.
>   "(b) Evidence Not Excludable by Statute or Rule.--Evidence shall not be
> excluded in a proceeding in a court of the United States on the ground
> that it was obtained in violation of a statute, an administrative rule or
> regulation, or a rule of procedure unless exclusion is expressly
> authorized by statute or by a rule prescribed by the Supreme Court
> pursuant to statutory authority.
>
> From S.3, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Improvement Act
> of 1995 (still pending [in February, 1995] before the Senate Judiciary
> Committee):
>
>   "Sec. 3502A. Admissibility of evidence obtained by search or seizure
>   "(a) Evidence Obtained by Objectively Reasonable Search or Seizure.--
> Evidence obtained as a result of a search or seizure that is otherwise
> admissible in a Federal criminal proceeding shall not be excluded in a
> proceeding in a court of the United States on the ground that the search
> or seizure was in violation of the fourth amendment to the Constitution.
>"(b) Evidence Not Excludable by Statute or Rule.--Evidence shall not be
>excluded in a proceeding in a court of the United States on the ground
>that it was obtained in violation of a statute, an administrative rule, or
>a rule of court procedure unless exclusion is expressly authorized by
>statute or by a rule prescribed by the Supreme Court pursuant to chapter
>131 of title 28.

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Dec  3 12:19:01 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:19:01 -0500
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware:solutions)
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0BDE35.5D7F99A3@acmenet.net>


Gil Hamilton wrote:
> 
> Karsten Self writes:
> >Defeat:  create a log buffer file of fixed size, logged activity changes
> >its contents, but not the size of the file.  E.g.:  a filesystem image
> >file under GNU/Linux.  Techniques could be used to maintain a constant
> >global MD5 checksum to defeat other detection attempts.
> 
> What techniques could be used to do this?  MD5 has some weaknesses,
> but creating collisions still is not trivial.  Unless you know
> something I don't.

I interpreted that not as working around MD5, but as working around the
procedure which would use MD5 to get a single number for an entire file
system.

Example: mark the logging software's keylog file as a device file, which
wouldn't be processed by the file system checksum procedure. When the
logger needs to write to its log, the file type is changed to "ordinary"
and then back to "device" again.


-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 20:22:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:22:42 +1100
Subject: in praise of gold, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203151650.00a17110@pop.useoz.com>


"...nothing more than a cop-out. So it seems to me, at any rate. ~Faustine. "

Like you last week (agent ?) faustine (cop-in?) Silence speaks volumes in 
this house.




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Dec  3 12:38:41 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:38:41 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001173@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Dec  3 12:39:24 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:39:24 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001175@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec  3 12:39:46 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:39:46 -0500
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
Message-ID: <200112032039.PAA21960@mail.lokmail.net>

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From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Dec  3 12:39:52 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:39:52 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001176@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Dec  3 12:41:06 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:41:06 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001178@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Dec  3 13:40:11 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:40:11 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and 
  implementation
In-Reply-To: <0c7b01c17c46$2db18c50$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: 


Right, but will this type of thing cause oscillations, or some sort of
synchronizations, and if so, what are the ways around it...

In some ways I do look at that repcap model as a stock market, but rather
than individual stocks, you have reputations.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Marcel Popescu wrote:

> From: "Sunder" 
> 
> > Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
> > positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
> > I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
> > quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
> > least they're funny...)
> 
> I think this is pretty much known behavior: reputation is more easily lost
> than gained ("one angry customer tells other nine" and so on).
> 
> Mark




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Dec  3 08:58:09 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 16:58:09 +0000
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203192455.00a34cf0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0BAF20.DC54F12F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


mattd wrote:

[...]

> If you are into cryptoanarchy with the emphasis on the anarchy,you may
> enjoy this...

[...]

> We used to say, NO to Western Imperialism and NO to Soviet Imperialism
> both. Self determination for ALL PEOPLES!
> One Empire has fallen. One still has to fall. But we should not mourn the
> passing of the Soviet prison of nations.

[...]

You miss the point. James & many of the other Libertarians present are
aware past attempts at left anarchism.  But they think that  such
attempts will inevitably  develop into state socialist tyranny, or else 
collapse into a bloody war of all against all, or else  be defeated by
some other group that has already become a centralised tyranny. (In
Makhno's case all three happened, at least partly).

In other words they think that - to nick a Marxist term they probably
wouldn't use themselves - socialism has "contradictions", that you can't
have socialism without tyranny. From their point of view there is no
logical space for "libertarian socialism" or "socialist anarchism".
Someone who claims to be a socialist and yet opposed to state control
will, they think, be either a liar who will turn out to be a Statist in
the end, or someone who hasn't thought things through, who will turn out
to be a capitalist in the end.

I happen to think they are wrong. But stirring quotes from well-known
texts about the Russian revolution won't persuade them. 
The few who are at all interested will have read such stuff before and
already know the (very persuasive) arguments against it. (After all the
Russian revolution really did collapse into ten years of bloody war,
followed by 30 years of Stalinism, then another 30  of mind-numbingly
boring militarised dictatorship and petty cruelty from which anyone in
their right minds would have gladly escaped to America or western
Europe. They aren't making this up)

Of course most of the US libertarians neither know nor care about that
1920s stuff, and going on about it will just confirm their prejudices
about it. Americans tend to be well immunized against socialism - the
only way to get it past their mental blocks is to call it something else
:-)  It was still fun a few years ago when someone posted a chunk of the
Communist Manifesto with references to "the Bourgeoisie" changed to "the
Net" and quite a few of them took it as some recent anarcho-capitalist
rant...


Ken




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec  3 17:02:19 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:02:19 -0800
Subject: Disposable cell phone launches
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203170003.04244008@pop3.lvcm.com>


Summary:
Universal Studios Home Video and Hop-On partnered to launch what they say 
is the first-of-its-kind, disposable cellphone in connection with the 
DVD/home video release of "Jurassic Park III" December 11. The 
limited-edition phone, called the Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phone, 
includes hands-free, voice-activated technology, and it only will be 
available via inserts in thousands of "Jurassic Park III" DVDs and 
videocassettes. The recyclable phone offers 60 minutes of prepaid calling 
time, usable for six months. The free phones will feature a branded 
"Jurassic Park" faceplate to enhance collectability. Hop-On says it plans 
to release a regular disposable cellphone in national retail outlets for 
$30 after this promotion ends.

Full Article:
UNIVERSAL CITY, Calif., Nov. 29 /PRNewswire/ -- In a major first for the 
entertainment and telecommunications industries, Universal Studios Home 
Video (USHV) and Hop-On (OTC: HPON) have partnered to launch the 
first-of-its-kind, disposable cell phone in connection with the DVD/home 
video release of "Jurassic Park III" on December 11. The limited edition 
introductory phone, a specially-designed Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phone, 
employs the latest hands-free, voice-activated communications technology, 
and will be available only as an exclusive FREE offer via inserts in 
thousands of "Jurassic Park III" DVDs and videocassettes for a limited time.

Cutting-Edge Telecommunications Technology
The exclusive Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phones will offer 60 minutes of 
prepaid calling time without the requirement of a cellular service contract 
or monthly fee. Compact and lightweight in design as well as fully 
recyclable, the cell phones require only two buttons: CALL and END. Using 
mistake-proof, automated voice-recognition dialing, the cell phones include 
a hands-free earbud/microphone to provide safe and convenient 
communication. Once activated, the phones are supported by 24-hour operator 
assistance and last up to six months.

The limited edition Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phone will also feature a 
branded "Jurassic Park" faceplate to enhance collectability. Hop-On plans 
to release a regular disposable cell phone in national retail outlets for 
$30 after the introductory promotion with "Jurassic Park III." The Jurassic 
Park Survival Cell Phone combines the latest cutting edge communications 
product with one of the year's biggest theatrical box-office successes in 
time to capitalize on heightened consumer awareness during the holiday 
shopping season surrounding the home video/DVD release.

The cell phone offer will be communicated via on-pack stickers on all DVD 
and VHS copies of "Jurassic Park III" as well as through in-store 
merchandisers. "Because a cell phone played such a crucial role in 
"Jurassic Park III," we were looking to find a unique telecommunications 
partner to help celebrate the film's release on DVD," said Ken Graffeo, 
senior vice president of marketing, Universal Studios Home Video. "Our 
partnership with Hop-On is ideal and we are thrilled to be bringing the 
next wave of cell phone technology to consumers."

"The Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phone is designed to give consumers easy 
access to help if they need it -- anytime, anywhere," said Peter Michaels, 
chairman and CEO, Hop-On. "As an entrepreneurial communications company we 
are extremely excited to be partnering with one of the most successful and 
dominant global media and communications organizations. Hop-On's phones 
have the potential to revolutionize the communications industry and this 
launch is an important step toward that goal."




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Dec  3 09:19:08 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:19:08 +0000
Subject: Council of Europe Cybercrime Treaty
References: <200112031603.KAA17323@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0BB40C.F8C4008B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:
 
> The full text is at
> http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/WhatYouWant.asp?NT=185
> 
> Note that no signatories have signed, and it requires at least 5 to
> sign before going into force.
> 
> This is interesting because basically all of Western Europe's IP
> traffic crosses the U.S. at some point, 

Que?

Tracing route to members.ams.chello.nl [62.108.1.126]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  193.61.22.245
  2   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  144.82.19.103
  3   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  144.82.255.17
  4    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  128.40.255.29
  5   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  128.40.20.190
  6    30 ms    20 ms    20 ms  ulcc-gsr.lmn.net.uk [194.83.101.5]
  7   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  london-bar1.ja.net [146.97.40.33]
  8   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  linx-gw.ja.net [128.86.1.249]
  9   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  LINXRT1.chello.com [195.66.224.89]
 10    30 ms    30 ms    20 ms  uk-lon-rc-02-pos-5-0.chellonetwork.com
[213.46.1
60.57]
 11    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  nl-ams-rc-01-pos-0-0.chellonetwork.com
[213.46.1
60.9]
 12    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  nl-ams-rd-01-pos-1-0.chellonetwork.com
[213.46.1
60.14]
 13    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  pos15-0.am00rt06.brain.upc.nl
[213.46.161.54]
 14    20 ms    30 ms    20 ms  srp10-0.am00rt02.brain.upc.nl
[212.142.32.42]
 15    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  srp0-0.am00rt03.brain.upc.nl
[212.142.32.35]
 16    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gig3-0-0.h0rtr1.a2000.nl [62.108.0.82]
 17    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  members.ams.chello.nl [62.108.1.126]

Trace complete.




From frissell at panix.com  Mon Dec  3 14:22:44 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <200112032039.PAA21960@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011203171057.02b978b0@brillig.panix.com>


At 03:39 PM 12/3/01 -0500, Faustine wrote:
>Great points, but consider the example "Harvard University." People are
>willing to pay a premium to be associated with it regardless of the academic
>worth of the individual programs in the eyes of specialists. A lot of students
>are after the cachet and couldn't care less about the curriculum. But then,
>I'm sure it's a mistake to assume education for it's own sake has the 
>slightest
>thing to do with why the majority of people bother going to college at all.
>
>Ridiculous how so many employers put such stock in a word on a piece of paper
>too--pure credentialism. How ironic when you contrast that with the fact that
>the great Herman Kahn didn't have a PhD. I wonder where he'd end up today.

Special agents should read the Economist in addition to NLECTC Law 
Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary http://www.nlectc.org/.


http://WWW.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%26%2BX%28%2FQ%21%3B%26%0A

The lemon dilemma
Oct 11th 2001
 From The Economist print edition

This year's Nobel prize for economics honours work inspired by a simple 
observation about used cars

...

This year's other two laureates, Michael Spence of Stanford University and 
Joseph Stiglitz of Columbia, won their prize for analysing how firms and 
consumers separate the gems from the lemons in a variety of industries.

Mr Spence's early work focused on how individuals use signalling to 
communicate their abilities in the labour market. Job applicants, for 
example, want to distinguish themselves from the mass of other hopefuls. 
They may try to do this in a number of ways, from a fancy suit to a fancy 
education. But for signals to be believable, Mr Spence observed, they need 
to differ substantially in their cost of acquisition. For example, for 
education to work as a credible signal, it must be harder for less able 
employees to get. Indeed, even if such an education gives a student no 
tangible skillsreading classics at Oxford, sayit can still be a useful 
signal of relative quality to employers.

Signalling is used in many markets, wherever a person, company or 
government wants to provide information about its intentions or strengths 
indirectly. Taking on debt might signal that a company is confident about 
future profits. Brands send valuable signals to consumers precisely because 
they are costly to create, and thus will not be lightly abused by their 
creators. Advertising may convey no information other than that the firm 
can afford to advertise, but that may be all a consumer needs to know to 
have confidence in it. Perhaps advertising, as a signal, is not money 
entirely wasted, as some economists argue.

...

It's all about signaling.

DCF

----
What was the plea bargain which featured the greatest sentence reduction in 
the history of the criminal law?
A reduction from a charge of Sodomy to a charge of Following Too Close.
   --Courtesy of the National Commission for the Preservation of 
Politically Incorrect Law School Jokes.




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 17:27:43 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:27:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN and Julie Hilden on the Evil of Anonymity
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20011204012743.16130.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>


> "Most of us now are happy, for example, to tolerate facial recognition

I tried to figure out, but sufficient data is not available.

Who are "they" ?



=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec  3 17:44:55 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:44:55 -0800
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <05213906-E81A-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3C0B453B.25540.F81AC27@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011203174455.007fb1b0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:17 AM 12/3/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>As soon as people tumble to the fact that "Tom Clancy" has sold his 
>nym/reputation to some hack writer, that is, let them put his name on 
>their words, then the reputation of "Tom Clancy" falls.

I was coming to that conclusion thanks to the public
exchange of certain extremely-high-rep folks here.

The conclusion: you can't sell a nym.  Nyms are best
managed by their initiator.  You can sell a nym's
recommendation  reliably but not a nym.  Is this true?

A grasshopper,






 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec  3 17:47:35 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:47:35 -0800
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011203174735.007fc240@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:42 AM 12/3/01 -0500, Sunder wrote:
>Ok, then I propose to surround your property from any vantage point on
>public land, and setup gigantic speakers from which I would recite very
>loud speeches in your direction at 3:00am.

Why not do some high-power microwave testing in his direction? 





 






  







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec  3 18:09:49 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:09:49 -0800
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011203171057.02b978b0@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Monday, December 3, 2001, at 02:22 PM, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
> Special agents should read the Economist in addition to NLECTC Law 
> Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary 
> http://www.nlectc.org/.
>
>
> http://WWW.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%26%2BX%28%2FQ%21%3B%26%0A
>
> The lemon dilemma
> Oct 11th 2001
> From The Economist print edition
>
> This year's Nobel prize for economics honours work inspired by a simple 
> observation about used cars
>

By the way, a topic I talked about a month or two ago, the bogus nature 
of the _Economics_ prize, has been in the news. Some of the descendants 
of the Nobel family want the Economics prize to have no connection to 
the name "Nobel."

Their claim is that Alfred Nobel didn't create or fund the prize, so why 
is it called "Nobel"?

I think the subtext is that the Econ prize is trivializing the other 
prizes.

"Economists win for "lemon analysis"" does not quite compare with 
discovering basic laws of physics or chemistry, for example.



--Tim May
"Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David 
Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 00:28:26 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:28:26 +1100
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203192455.00a34cf0@pop.useoz.com>


Thanks for that,Im going to publish it on Indymedia soon,real soon.

If you are into cryptoanarchy with the emphasis on the anarchy,you may 
enjoy this...

Elliott Abrams, who had pleaded guilty in 1981 to lying to Congress over 
the conduct of the war, was installed by the president to head his "office 
for democracy and human rights". See Tom Lehrer again. His criminal offence 
was described by White House spokesman Ari Fleischer as "a matter of the 
past".
We used to say, NO to Western Imperialism and NO to Soviet Imperialism 
both. Self determination for ALL PEOPLES!
One Empire has fallen. One still has to fall. But we should not mourn the 
passing of the Soviet prison of nations.
The Minister of Education and the Minister of the Interior were 
assassinated. Students and young workers, determined to destroy the 
existing order, turned to the writings of Bakunin and Kropotkin for 
inspiration and with dynamite and pistol hurled themselves against the State.
Working people, many of them recently arrived from the countryside to find 
employment in the vast new factories, elected representatives from their 
own class whom they could trust and whom they could remove at once if 
unsatisfactory. Strikes paralysed production, oppressed national groups on 
the borderlands rebelled, peasants burned and looted, and insurrection 
broke out
The revolt, although short-lived, inspired the young anarchist movement. In 
spite of increased repression, its 'Battle Detachments' raided gunshops and 
armouries in search of the Browning pistols they cherished. Officials, 
police and bosses were murdered and countless 'expropriations' of banks and 
houses of the wealthy took place. Gun battles with police ended in death, 
jail or torture.
This revolution, as a participant observed, was 'a purely spontaneous 
phenomenon, not at all the fruit of party agitation.' People were 'fired by 
a sense of unlimited freedom, a liberation from the restraints of their 
society.'
'Down with Authority and Capitalism' on black banners.
Anarchists seized the mansions of the rich. One became 'The House of Rest', 
with rooms for reading, discussion and recreation and a children's 
playground in the garden.
world-wide revolution based on free federations of urban and rural communes.
In 1908 Nestor Makhno had been given a life sentence for the assassination 
of a police chief. Freed in 1917, he was elected head of the Soviet of 
Peasants and Workers in Gulyai-Polye. With an armed band marching behind a 
huge black banner on which was proclaimed 'Liberty or Death- The Land to 
the Peasants, the Factories to the Workers', Makhno began re-distributing 
the estates to the peasants. In 1918, when Austrian and White armies 
invaded the Ukraine, Makhno's partisans fought back: 'We will conquer not 
so that we may follow the example of past years and hand over our fate to 
some new master, but to take it in our own hands and conduct our lives 
according to our own will and our own conception of truth'.
By the following spring the invaders were driven out and Gulyai-Polye was 
free from external control. Organising regional conferences of peasants, 
workers and insurgents, Makhno began to establish anarchist communes based 
on equality and mutual aid.
At first the Bolsheviks hailed him as a 'courageous partisan' and 'great 
revolutionary', but subsequently attacked him as an 'anarcho-bandit'. Two 
Cheka agents were sent to assassinate Makhno, but the agents were caught 
and themselves shot. When Makhno invited Red soldiers to the Congress, a 
furious Trotsky declared him an outlaw, banned the Congress and sent troops 
to break up the anarchist communes.
At this moment the Whites invaded again, driving on Moscow. Bolsheviks and 
anarchists were sent reeling, yet Makhno's army counter-attacked 
successfully. Trotsky used the time he had been given to re-organise the 
Red Army. By Christmas the Whites were expelled. Makhno's anarchists 
promptly entered Ekaterinoslav, threw open the jails and told the people 
that they were now free to organise their own lives. Freedom of speech, 
press and assembly was declared for all except authoritarian parties, which 
were dissolved. Bolsheviks were advised to 'take up some honest trade'.
Again Trotsky outlawed Makhno and serious fighting raged for eight months 
until Whites invaded yet again. Trotsky appealed for Makhno's help, 
promising in return the release of all imprisoned anarchists and complete 
freedom of expression, short of urging the overthrow of the Bolshevik 
government. The Whites were finally defeated.
With victory secure, Trotsky shot all the Makhnovist military commanders, 
attacked Makhno's HQ and wiped out the staff. The Cheka arrested members of 
the Nabat in Kharkov; throughout Russia, anarchist clubs, groups and 
newspaper offices were raided and closed down. Although badly wounded, 
Makhno, together with the remnants of his insurgent army, evaded the 
Bolsheviks for a year. Escaping eventually to Paris, he died in 1934 of 
alcohol and TB.
Surviving anarchists launched a campaign of terror against the Bolsheviks. 
In September 1921, they blew up the Communist Party Moscow, leaving 67 dead 
or wounded.
The anarchists were an immense influence on the popular revolution because 
their aims coincided with the people's desire to sweep away state and 
capital. For a brief moment it did seem possible that a social revolution 
would destroy all authority and create a decentralised society of 
voluntarily cooperating free individuals. But the anarchists' warning that 
power corrupts all who wield it - that authority stifles the revolutionary 
spirit and robs people of freedom - was ignored.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec  3 20:21:56 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:21:56 -0800
Subject: Bookstores and von Mises - was: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203020427.033da690@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <73DE4902-E86E-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>



On Monday, December 3, 2001, at 02:23 AM, Bill Stewart wrote:
> von Mises has been dead for a while and his publisher is
> probably not actively running wholesale specials.
>
> Besides, he's like one of those Tedious Dead White Male Classics 
> authors;
> nobody actually reads him, they just read commentaries
> or literary criticisms on him, or the Cliff Notes or comic-book
> "von Mises For Beginners" versions (don't know if they've done him,
> but the Heidegger one makes it palatable to at least approach 
> Heidegger* :-)
> or more likely, economics/politics textbooks by people who have 
> occasional
> references to von Mises but haven't actually read his work,
> just the commentaries/litcrit/cliffnotes/comics about him.

Well, "Marx for Dummies" has been the best-selling economics textbook 
for something like 40 years, through at least 7 or 9 editions.

--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Mon Dec  3 18:16:06 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:17:06 -0459
Subject: WirelessCellutions Phone Hotsheet!
Message-ID: <200112032232343.SM01068@carlo>

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From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Mon Dec  3 18:16:06 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:17:06 -0459
Subject: WirelessCellutions Phone Hotsheet!
Message-ID: <200112032232859.SM01068@carlo>

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From measl at mfn.org  Mon Dec  3 19:23:07 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:23:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware:
  solutions)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203103637.033d0750@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 



> size or checksum changes.  Hidden files are trivial to use,
> though many utilities ignore their hiddenness,

Let's not forget the NT "alternate data streams" "feature".  This is where
almost
anything can be held, and no known virus scanner can touch it.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec  3 22:14:19 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:14:19 -0800
Subject: Debate on Privacy Goes Private 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203221354.041336f8@pop3.lvcm.com>


Debate on Privacy Goes Private
In the debate about new surveillance powers for law enforcement officials, 
Americans, in various ways, are asking a basic question: Are we willing to 
curtail personal freedom in exchange for greater national security? Now, a 
debate heating up in Washington puts a twist on the query: Are we willing 
to curtail access to information in exchange for cybersecurity?

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/03/technology/ebusiness/03NECO.html




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 03:17:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:17:48 +1100
Subject: Micropayments and accurate polling
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203221606.00a18880@pop.useoz.com>


203.238.135.35.
Return of Micropayments
By Michael Hurwicz
Early attempts at micropayments have failed. Is it an innovative idea that 
needs more work, or a doomed concept?
Programming with Perl
Want accurate polls? Randal L. Schwartz provides a solution built around 
the fact that form validation using images is too clever for most robots.

from                         http://www.webtechniques.com/archives/2001/12/




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec  3 20:25:38 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 23:25:38 -0500
Subject: in praise of gold 
Message-ID: <200112040425.XAA07055@mail.lokmail.net>

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From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 14:02:19 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 00:02:19 +0200
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation
References: 
Message-ID: <0c7b01c17c46$2db18c50$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "Sunder" 

> Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
> positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
> I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
> quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
> least they're funny...)

I think this is pretty much known behavior: reputation is more easily lost
than gained ("one angry customer tells other nine" and so on).

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 05:04:40 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 00:04:40 +1100
Subject: Declan murdered george harrison
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204000315.00a23b00@pop.useoz.com>


www.accuracy.org/articles/cato.htm

IPA Articles - Cato Institute
... Libertarian" in a Corporate Way. ... book "No Mercy: How Conservative 
Think Tanks and ... over
the years. Cato's main philanthropic backing ... come from the right-wing 
Koch ...
Description: Article explores the Cato Institute's funding and advocacy, 
which include large tobacco industry funding...
Category: Health > Addictions > Substance Abuse > Tobacco > Industry > 
Supporters
www.accuracy.org/articles/cato.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 00:17:20 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 00:17:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: in praise of gold 
In-Reply-To: <200112040425.XAA07055@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <20011204081720.91562.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>


> Bah. If you've always found that the women who are willing to sleep with you
> are

Look, I was discussing the meaning of "need" and pointlessness of attaching
moral qualifications to that.

But I'll have to oink to be understood. Prayers to the Godess of Semantics
didn't help.

> not spare yourself all the headaches and schedule appointments with an
escort,

Do you have any idea how much it costs to get a decent escort ? Between $750
and $2500 for the night. At $1500 average, once per week comes to $78K per
year, and that is not tax-deductible. State-sponsored whores are cheaper.

No, I am NOT taking offers on competitive services.

> might save you some real misery in the long run. That so many people are
driven
> to go through the motions of the very things that bring them the most
> unhappiness is a real shame.

Most people are perfectly happy to go through the motions. And they are not
asking to be saved.

> > "Fit" and "unfit" for "human companionship" are far to into
nacionalsocialist
> > ideology, I'd rather not go there.
> 
> It doesn't take a judgment by society at large to realize that some
> people really are better off alone instead of inflicting their destructive

You are again disbursing qualifications on the false assumption that anyone
shares common grounds with you. And you are even not consistent, since here you
seem to favour conformity. 'Some people' are 'better off', no shit ? Who gets
to decide what is destructive ? The majority, you imply.

You are a bigot.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Dec  4 00:30:07 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 00:30:07 -0800
Subject: Viridian Note 00283: Geeks and Spooks 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204124253.00a1e8e0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203225456.032c5b50@idiom.com>


http://www.viridiandesign.org/notes/251-300/00283_geeks_and_spooks.html

I'll echo Ken Brown's "Yee-hah!" rating for this article.
When Bruce goes on a rant, he goes on a rant, and this rant is worth reading
just for the literary value of a good rant, even if we get bashed
at least as much as Microsoft and the Spooks and the
Nixon/Reagan/Bush/Bush Administration do.

Bruce's suggestion for a recording device is somewhat different in style
from David Brin's various RodneyKing shouldercams and other ubiquitous cameras,
and a bit different from his fictionalizations in "Distraction",
but, hey, it's doable, and this is a ranting essay, not a calm book like
"The Transparent Society".

Bruce:
>."... I am suggesting secure, accountable devices with digital signatures 
>built in. They're cryptographically time-stamped, their voice signals and 
>photographs are cryptographically overwritten, proving their source. They 
>are tamperproofed, and very sternly verifiable, and usable as proven 
>evidence in courts of law. They're not civilian toys, they are genuine 
>weapons of information warfare, in much the same way that an unarmed 
>Predator surveillance aircraft is a weapon. They are people's media 
>weapons. Their proper use requires some training and discretion; it's like 
>a citizen's audiovisual arrest. This is the civilian militia Minuteman 
>version of surveillance. The omnipresense of this kind of civilian- owned 
>and civilian-deployed surveillance would not make anyone's society kinder 
>and happier. But it certainly would make that society a very dangerous 
>place for urban guerrillas. And it would not centralize the great power of 
>surveillance in the unstable hands of unelected functionaries...."




From Mailer-Daemon at city.toronto.on.ca  Mon Dec  3 22:49:05 2001
From: Mailer-Daemon at city.toronto.on.ca (Mailer-Daemon at city.toronto.on.ca)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 01:49:05 -0500
Subject: Message status - undeliverable
Message-ID: 

The message that you sent was undeliverable to the following:
	bjonkman
-------------- next part --------------
Information about your message:
	Subject: CDR: CFP: PKI research workshop

From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec  4 01:56:23 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 01:56:23 -0800
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist (Im a libertarian socialist!)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203073248.00a235f0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0C2D47.4001.37E1D95@localhost>


    --
On 3 Dec 2001, at 8:06, mattd wrote:
> Disaster struck [anarcho socialism in Catalonia] for many
> reasons and it was not all as grim as the stories you put
> on the web.You could cite many more sources on your site
> that you wont thus letting people get away with questioning
> your honesty and motives.I simply agree with those that
> call you a liar on Spain

If you read through McKay's pages, he calls me a liar, but 
then concedes the important facts -- concedes that 
"anarchist" Catalonia was in fact a dictatorship that ruled
by terror, arguing not that I am lying because I say there
was terror and there was no terror, not that I am lying
because I say there was a dictatorship and there was no
dictatorship, but instead claiming I am a liar because I
imply there was unjust and oppressive terror whereas really
it was necessary and justified terror, that I am a liar
because I imply there was arrogant and cruel dictatorship
when really it was benevolent and kindly dictatorship.

For example in 
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2374/govern.html an 
McKay writes:

: :	Moving on, James Donald presents one of his more 
: :	outrageous statements.
: :	: : 	"then later, their leaders decided in 
: :	: : 	secret, in cheerful defiance of the 
: :	: : 	democratic procedures  to dissolve the 
: :	: : 	militia committee, to officially 
: :	: : 	recreate the state rather than 
: :	: : 	unofficially"

He then rants at great length that I am lying outrageously, 
and that what I say is completely contradicted by the very 
sources that I cite, but after all this ranting concedes:

: :	[...] James Donald is right in that the CNT made 
: :	the decision [...] in violation of its democratic 
: :	principles, since the rank and file were not 
: :	consulted.

The decision in question stripped the "anarchist" 
nomenclatura of its power, and fed it into the hands of their 
enemies.  If he concedes that the most important decision the 
"anarchists" ever made was made by a secretive elite, how 
then can my words be outragous?

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     AKpu2kepzNrk+gFVpsRFEhY123rgc5xUgow4eElm
     4BitZRQhAj4p9f2SbO+b0zQWmqJVLbIw4UK+QcVD/




From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Tue Dec  4 00:22:18 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:22:18 -0500
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
                   
Message-ID: 


>Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing,
>putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance
>for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts

There are persistent rumors that Havenco does not really host anything on the platform, all bits are on dry land with VPN pipes to the platform, so that it looks off-shore hosted.

In other words, the platform is a decoy, storage-wise.

What matters is where bits enter 'known' Internet. Until communication infrastructure becomes truly distributed (forward-routing for the masses) this will remain the bottleneck and choke point. Kudos to Havenco for figuring this out.

Is secret publishing contradiction in terms ?




From info_sen at www.mail.org  Mon Dec  3 18:52:44 2001
From: info_sen at www.mail.org (universt)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:52:44 +0100
Subject: De su interes/publi.enseanza
Message-ID: <200112040250.fB42oIJ22715@waste.minder.net>


PUBLI/ENSEÑANZA
                                                                            
                                                                                            Learning 
University 
                                                                                            Area 
Master-Doctoral
                                                                                            
--------------------------------
                                                                                            
 
 
Distinguido Sr./Señora:
 
 
Gratamente nos dirigimos a vd.para informales sobre la posibilidad de 
realizar unos Masters, Doctorados, a distancia desde cualquier parte del 
mundo.Y LA POSIBILIDAD DE CONVALIDAR SU EXPERIENCIA 
LABORAL, ESTUDIOS ANTERIORES,PARA  PODER CERTIFICARLE 
DIPLOMATURAS EN DIFERENTES AREAS.
La enseñanza es a distancia y pueden seguirlo cómodamente en 
cualquier parte del mundo tanto el material de estudio como él envió de 
examen y la entrega de diplomas se efectúa a distancia.
Certificamos la experiencia a fin.
 
 
Areas de estudio enormemente practicas:
 
Area Economía:
 
 Marketing y Dirección de Empresas
Comunicación Social y Relaciones Publicas
MBA. Master Business Administraccion
Psicología Social y Empresa
Ecología y Medio Ambiente
PNL y Psicología Social
Promoción del Turismo
 Gestión Inmobiliaria y Inversiones
Internet y Nuevas Tecnologías 
 (Otros como enseñanzas convalidables, nuevas profesiones)
 ---------------
 
Area Terapias Alternativas:
 
Medicina Naturista Integral
Estética y Belleza
Fijo-Homeopatía
Medicina Ayuverdica
Terapias Manuales
Medicina China
Psicoterapia
Psicología Social y Humanista
 (Otros como enseñanzas convalidables,nuevas profesiones)
 
MAS DE 300.DIPLOMATURAS POR CONVALIDACION DE 
EXPERIENCIA LABORAL Y EDUCATIVA AFIN.
Envíenos un e-mail a BROK_UNI at terra.es  y le informaremos con la 
mayor brevedad sobre fecha de inicio, módulos de estudio, costes y 
condiciones generales, posibilidades.etc. 
 
 Sin otra que la de quedar de vds.
 
 
 Atentamente:
 
 
 
 Luis Rendell Bustos
 Area Broker-Learning University
 University Technology International
 Alicante
 e-Mail:
BROK_UNI at terra.es 
---------------
 
 Si desea ser borrado enviar e-mail a: 
remo_567 at eresmas.com




From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Dec  4 06:24:03 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 06:24:03 -0800
Subject: We have always been at war with Oceania bin Laden
Message-ID: <3C0CDC83.A77914A5@cdc.gov>


Reving up the population again,
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011203/ts/attacks_investigation.html

>> Meanwhile, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press that
  investigators have gathered evidence showing similarities among the
last
  three terrorist attacks against Americans by Osama bin Laden's
  supporters.

  Those attacks include the Sept. 11 suicide hijackings, the October
2000
  bombing of the USS Cole (news - web sites) in Yemen and the 1998
  bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa. <<

Note the omission of the Lebanese bomb which drove out Satan's Marines.
Wouldn't want to remind the sheeple that terrorism works.

>> ``We will respect the rights of political freedom and religious
freedom,
  and we are deeply committed to that,'' he said.

  ``But for so-called terrorists to gather over themselves some robe of
  clericism ... and claim immunity from being observed, people who
hijack
  a religion and make out of it an implement of war will not be free
from
  our interest.'' <<

Hijack a religion?  How about christian hatemongers?  And folks who use
religion to steal land?  And how about that recent religious persecution
of Mormons?

>> Ashcroft told ``Fox News Sunday'' that military tribunals would be
  limited to non-U.S. citizens and ``not just normal criminal activity,
but
  war crimes.''  <<

Would that exclude ex-Sen Kerry's war crimes then?




From HolidayOffers at pinnaclesys.com  Tue Dec  4 06:31:31 2001
From: HolidayOffers at pinnaclesys.com (HolidayOffers)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 06:31:31 -0800
Subject: Pinnacle Systems Holiday Offers
Message-ID: <200112041432.GAA17398@smtp2.pinnaclesys.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
Size: 21876 bytes
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URL: 

From 3238125travelincentives at aol.com  Tue Dec  4 06:32:38 2001
From: 3238125travelincentives at aol.com (3238125travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:32:38
Subject: 1000           Your Vacation Winning !                  3812532
Message-ID: 


You have been specially selected to qualify for the following:

Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway
To review the details of the please click on the link 
with the confirmation number below:

http://vacation.81832.com

Confirmation Number#Lh340
Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation.

Wishing you a fun filled vacation!
If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site 
do not hesitate to contact me direct:
mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help!




From 3239187travelincentives at aol.com  Tue Dec  4 06:32:39 2001
From: 3239187travelincentives at aol.com (3239187travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:32:39
Subject: 1496           Your Vacation Winning !                  3918732
Message-ID: <200203160616.BAA25924@mail.marsnyc.com>


You have been specially selected to qualify for the following:

Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway
To review the details of the please click on the link 
with the confirmation number below:

http://vacation.81832.com

Confirmation Number#Lh340
Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation.

Wishing you a fun filled vacation!
If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site 
do not hesitate to contact me direct:
mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help!




From 3241921travelincentives at aol.com  Tue Dec  4 06:32:41 2001
From: 3241921travelincentives at aol.com (3241921travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:32:41
Subject: 7368           Your Vacation Winning !                  4192132
Message-ID: <200112031733312.SM01672@plain>


You have been specially selected to qualify for the following:

Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway
To review the details of the please click on the link 
with the confirmation number below:

http://vacation.81832.com

Confirmation Number#Lh340
Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation.

Wishing you a fun filled vacation!
If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site 
do not hesitate to contact me direct:
mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help!




From 3247109travelincentives at aol.com  Tue Dec  4 06:32:47 2001
From: 3247109travelincentives at aol.com (3247109travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:32:47
Subject: 872           Your Vacation Winning !                  4710932
Message-ID: <200112032241.RAA27417@oracle2.marsnyc.com>


You have been specially selected to qualify for the following:

Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway
To review the details of the please click on the link 
with the confirmation number below:

http://vacation.81832.com

Confirmation Number#Lh340
Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation.

Wishing you a fun filled vacation!
If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site 
do not hesitate to contact me direct:
mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help!




From mail at teleseminarsrus.com  Tue Dec  4 07:41:01 2001
From: mail at teleseminarsrus.com (TeleseminarsRus)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 7:41:01 AM -0000
Subject: Bear Attacks NASDQ in December
Message-ID: <100748038801@aquarius.hosting4u.net>


Dear Gang:

Based on my conversations with Dave Brennan, Vic Schiller and Chris Manning, 
technical analysis indicates that we are going to have a Nasdq pullback 
before Christmas.  I am emailing you to let you that we are getting prepared 
to profit on the coming Bear attack on the NASDQ.  I am going to have an 
immediate "Emergency How To Profit From The Nasdq Correction, before 
Christmas TeleSeminar"  It will be on December 11th 6pm PAcific Time.  The 
traders that are ready are going to make money when the Bear swipes at the 
NASDQ.  I have a special guest lined up who will discuss how to protect 
positions you have now, how to make money of the coming pullback, how to deal 
emotionally and confidently with the coming pullback.  I don't want anyone to 
miss this call, especially if you have never played the downside.  You will 
learn how to play the downside easily, naturally and confidently. Most of all 
you will make money.  This can be a big opportunity for the trader that knows 
how to profit from a pullback!

Sign up for this call on December 11th and I will give you all of the calls 
for jam-packed star studded month of December for only $99!!  Call the office 
now 1-888-870-9754.  Here are the Teleseminars we have already lined up for 
you:

We will tape this, Dec 6th and send it to you, if you didn't get on the call! 
  December 6  -  Meet Jeanne Gabellini, she is one of the nation's top 
private personal "Money" coaches to many individuals (some Famous people we 
can't mention).  Jeanne has been doing this professionally for the last 8 
years.  Her specialty is helping people deal with money!  She will help us 
uncover the 3 habits and patterns that are keeping us from wealth.  She will 
help us identify money making strategies we have been missing.  She will help 
us formulate a Money Plan!  Learn the Law Of Attracting Money - which anyone 
can leverage to create/attract more money in their life NOW!  Jeanne has 
worked very closely with  Robert Kiyosaki (the author of "Rich Dad, Poor 
Dad") infact, she teaches several of his classes.  She will be sharing 
details of what dramatic changes we can make to create wealth quickly in our 
lives!  This call will be very exciting!

December 13  - Our Next Guest has appeared on "CNBC Power Lunch," NBC, CNN, 
CNNfn, and MSNBC. She has also been featured on CBS MarketWatch.com and in 
Fortune Magazine (March, 2001).  She is a very, very busy lady who is a 
National Best Selling Author of THREE books:  Called "A Beginners Guide To 
Daytrading On-Line", "A Beginners Guide To Short Selling",  "A Beginners 
GuideTo Short Term Investing".  She comes very highly recommended from one of 
our clients.  He met her and was so impressed by her that we had to have her 
as our guest.  Her name is Toni Turner.  I caught up with Toni just after she 
broke her foot, so she couldn't run far.  I talked to Toni for 30 minutes and 
I knew immediately that this lady is genuinely interested in sharing her 
trading knowledge, experience, tips, techniques and tactics with serious 
individuals that want major results in their trading accounts, in a short 
amount of time.  Her commitment is even on her website it reads:  "My goal is 
to teach active traders and short term investors how to participate in the 
stock market safely and profitably, without losing their shirts, or blouses".. 
 She specializes in Day Trading and Swing Trading.  Yes, you can still make 
big money doing this and especially with Toni's proven tools.  She does 
seminars around the nation.  She uses technical analysis as the key to her 
success.  She confessed to me, like most people, she lost most all of your 
trading portfolio when she first started trading and that experience allowed 
her the burning desire to master trading.  When I say master trading, you 
will find out exactly how good of a trader she really is. She may be the best 
trader that no one knows about and that I have met.  I can't get into too 
much detail of what she will be talking about, however it will involve Candle 
Stick Charting, how to get in and why to get out of a trade.  As a bonus she 
will talk about her favorite indicators that she uses to make money 
consistently!

December 18 - December 18 - Rob Stanley 
This is our first diversified investment Teleseminar. I use to live in 
Dallas, Texas and I was able to met and hear about some really good oil and 
natural gas companies. The organization that we are interviewing is 
recognized as one of America's more successful independent oil and gas 
companies. Comprised of carefully selected oil and gas professionals, Reef's 
management represents an important synergism of industry experience in the 
key areas of finance, land, geological and geophysical exploration, drilling, 
completion, and production. This experienced management team, together with 
highly skilled technical consultants and the latest computer technology, 
enables Reef to operate without layers of corporate bureaucracy to make 
faster, more aggressive decisions which have resulted in significant 
discoveries of oil and natural gas reserves. What really impressed me was 
that the individuals that are running thecompany, the one with the least 
experience has been in the industry 17 years. Rob Stanley, who has been in 
the oil industry for numerous years will visit with us about why oil and 
natural gas investments are great right now, how to get involved, what to 
know before getting involved, 3 mistakes investors make and how to avoid 
them, tax credits and tax eliminate tools, secrets about the industry no one 
will tell you, how wealth is created in this industry, how to cut your risk 
and get great returns! If you have ever thought about orheard about oil and 
natural gas investments Rob is going to share everything with us. Join us!

December 20 -  I met this guy last summer a friend of mine was/is real 
impressed with the returns she has been getting with this guy's website.  
Allow me to introduce to you Vic Schiller, who is a successful options trader 
and has one of the hottest options websites on the planet.  He has a patented 
formula for screening and helping you find the stocks that you are looking 
for.  It is called SmartSearchXL, a patented decision support technology that 
identifies the highest return option trade opportunities.  This allows you 
the convenience and control required to automatically sort, filter, screen, 
organize and analyze a database of all 2,700+ optionable stocks and 100,000+ 
options online to find investments to meet your profit goals. Plus he brings 
together timely essential data, extensive analysis, and comprehensive option 
information.  With the tools that Vic has helped develop, it allows you to 
make money in bullish, bearish or a stagnant stock market.   The thing I like 
most about Vic�s information is once you get all of this data (are there can 
be a lot of it)  he then gives and teaches strategies that you can apply and 
start making money with.  I have not met too many people that believe in 
their product so much that they have an incredible and unheard of guarantee.  
Here is how it reads:  "If during any month you do not make at least five 
times your subscription fee on your option investments, your next month's 
subscription fee will be free."  He is specifically going to address:   How 
he picks and exits option trades.  He is going to go over specifics  that 
have made him a great trader and consistent moneymaker.  The Secrets to how 
"You" can squeeze dividend-like income from non-dividend paying tech stocks.  
 How to insure the value of your portfolio the same way you buy car 
insurance?  How you can use options to hedge your stock portfolio and make 
more money.  He is going to go over his "never before revealed" way of 
charting?  As a bonus he is going to go over the secrets he found to PUTS, 
his 5 General investing rules of thumb and 10 Of His Very Own Secret Tricks 
of Trading.

Call the office now to register for all Bear Teleseminar and get all of calls 
for December for FREE, 1-888-870-9754, all for only $99.  

Let's Make Some Money Despite Market Direction,
>From The People That Are Brining Information Home To You

PS - As Always 100% Satisfaction Guarantee NO RISK Or Your Money Back!  Call 
now 1-888-870-9754, first Teleseminar is December 11th.  Call before December 
6th and get on the call live.  If you can't make it we will tape it and mail 
it to you.




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Dec  4 04:49:27 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:49:27 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011203174735.007fc240@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


Then that would involve the FCC which wouldn't be pure speech.  Besides,
roasted Choate won't be so appetizing.  I find it more fun tweaking him on
his errors. :)


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 11:42 AM 12/3/01 -0500, Sunder wrote:
> >Ok, then I propose to surround your property from any vantage point on
> >public land, and setup gigantic speakers from which I would recite very
> >loud speeches in your direction at 3:00am.
> 
> Why not do some high-power microwave testing in his direction? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Dec  4 06:12:52 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:12:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: eCash reported morbidly wounded
Message-ID: 



http://fuckedcompany.com/

>Cashed
 Rumor has it eCash.net will be closing down any day now... aquisition fell
 through, around 40 people soon-to-be jobless.
 When: 12/4/2001
 Company: eCash.net
 Severity: 100 - new hall of fame inductee!

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Dec  4 05:17:39 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:17:39 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Erm, errata ESC:%s/Mr Measels/mattd/g

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:

> 
> Thanks for the pointer, a very good essay indeed. :)
> 
> I haven't checked in any meaningful way, but that thread doesn't seem to
> have any replies from Ralph...  Do you recall any details as to what would
> cause oscillations?  Would be interesting to explore this.
> 
> I expect that having a way to prove collusion by checking who praises
> whom, etc. would likely avoid such problems.  As would I suppose personal
> observation of current behavior.
> 
> Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
> positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
> I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
> quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
> least they're funny...)




From awuley at SoftHome.net  Tue Dec  4 08:24:08 2001
From: awuley at SoftHome.net (awuley at SoftHome.net)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:24:08
Subject: Hi, this is for you!!!
Message-ID: <200112040817.AAA22911@ecotone.toad.com>


  	
Dear Friend and Future Millionaire,

My wife recently received this e-mail and forwarded it to me to review. We've both several 
times read completely through it and have been in contact with some of the individuals 
listed 
below.
We think it's really an excellent opportunity that is well worth the small investment of time 
and money, and believe that you will, too!

AS SEEN ON US NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of 
only 
$25 U.S. Dollars expense one time
THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!

Before you say ''Bull'', please read on the following. This is the letter you have been hearing 
about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national 
weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program 
described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated 
whether 
or not the program was legal.

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the 
participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound 
to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT 
INCREASE OF 
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY 
WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many 
times before but each time I passed on it. I am
so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and 
money required.
To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks,
with money still coming in."
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another testimonial:

"This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when 
I 
received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple 
instructions and walaa ...... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only 
made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the 
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing 
it 
again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.''

More testimonials later but first,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ======

If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, 
please 
read the following...
THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN!!!

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL 
COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! 
INSTRUCTIONS:

Order all 5 reports shown on the list below

For each report, send US$5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-
MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. 
MAKE SURE YOUR 
RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail 
problems.

When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. 
YOUR 
TOTAL INVESTMENT COST US$5 X 5=US$25.00.
Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different 
individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 
1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and 
keep it 
on your desk in case something happens to your computer.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or 
their 
sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' 
or you will loose out on a majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, 
you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been 
tested, 
and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names 
on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, 
and Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will 
not 
work for you.
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & 
address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no 
doubt 
counting their fortune
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you 
copy every 
name & address ACCURATELY!

 Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO 
NOT 
MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing 
your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with very 
invaluable 
marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find 
thousands 
of free classified ads and much more.



There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and 
those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive 
only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. 
Also 
many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
Continuing 
with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 
orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a 
total 
of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people 
responded and ordered Report # 2.

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500, 000
e-mails.The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 
0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-
mails.

The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million).
Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.... $5,000 + 4.... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00


NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST 
POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO 
MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL SURELY EARN BACK YOUR MINOR 
INVESTMENT (US$25), STILL 
GETTING INVALUABLE MARKETING INFORMATION AND MAKE A LOT OF MONEY !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO.

Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those 
people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are presently over 150 million people on 
the 
Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger 
response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go 
along. For 
every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. 
Always 
provide same day service on all orders.
This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and

address on it, will be prompt because they cannot advertise until they receive the report.

=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.
====================================================
Notes:
1) Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY only) for each Report.
Because of the global coverage of the program, Checks, other currencies or Money Orders 
can NOT 
be accepted. (US$ notes you can obtain from your nearest bank/major hotel/money 
exchanger)

2) Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper.

3) On one of those sheets of paper, Write:

   1. the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering,

   2. YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec  4 08:50:24 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:50:24 -0800
Subject: Untraceable money now more than ever!
Message-ID: <02E4A9C4-E8D7-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>

Or, "Why We Fight."

Just thought I'd pass along this gem I found in one of the newsgroups. 
If true, it shows the unlawful/extralegal reach of government into the 
pockets of persons not tried, not convicted, not even charged, not even 
plausibly guilty of anything.

This guy is having his OWN MONEY blocked, probed, and frozen. No 
charges, no court, just done by forces unseen to him.

Editorial comment: The Founders would likely be stunned to see 
bureaucrats in a distant city able to reach in and essentially grab the 
money of a person without any due process, without fines or 
court-ordered seizures, just on the say-so of a bureaucrat. This guy 
below _wrote_ about it, so there are probably hundreds more just like 
him who choose not to further anger Big Brother by writing angry letters.

Me, I'd be so angry I'd probably be strapping on the plastic 
explosives....

Read it and stoke your righteous anger:

--begin article--
This was in today's Washington Post.  Check it out at
www.washingtonpost.com

=============== Letters to the Post ==
Whose Sacrifice?

Monday, December 3, 2001; Page A20

American citizens are willing to sacrifice civil liberties in the fight
against terrorism [front page, Nov. 29], but which Americans are doing
the sacrificing?

Since Sept. 11 the FBI has interviewed me at work and at home because
my name is similar not to that of one of the hijackers, but to an
individual arrested with suspected links to the terrorists.

The FBI has contacted my broker, my neighbors and my friends to learn
more about me. I was purchasing an apartment, but when I needed to give
my down payment at closing I was informed by my bank that my accounts
were frozen. No one informed me nor could anyone help me resolve the
problem. Only an angry settlement attorney was able to unfreeze the
funds.

A month passed, and all seemed normal. Then I found out again that I
did not have access to transfer funds from my accounts without
government approval.

I am a federal employee. I have not been charged with a crime. I do not
support terrorism, and I was willing to help the law enforcement
agencies. It was my duty as an American to answer all the questions
asked of me.

But as time goes by and I have to get "clearance" every time I want to
make a bank transfer, I feel victimized. Every time I travel and receive
the extra security checks because of my name it makes me trust my
government less. What scares me even more is that I am an American
citizen, and that is why I am not in jail. If I were not a citizen I
could be one of the hundreds of detainees, or I could be in sitting in
front of a secret military court only because the crime I am guilty of
is that my name is Ali Ayub and not Joe Smith.

ALI AYUB

Arlington

  ˇ 2001 The Washington Post Company

--end article--



--Tim May
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third 
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're 
around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet
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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec  4 08:56:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:56:01 -0800
Subject: Reputation capital
In-Reply-To: <0dea01c17cc7$8ebe8030$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: 



On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 05:28 AM, Marcel Popescu wrote:

> I think all this stuff about reputations is being solved pretty neatly 
> by
> the credit bureaus... up to getting scalars on people / companies.
>
> Mark
>

This is naive. Credit bureaus handle only a particular class of 
reputations, certain types of credit-worthiness, and then with 
well-documented deep flaws:

-- regulation by government

-- "Fair Credit Reporting Act" forbids them from "remembering" certain 
classes of defaults and welshings

-- lack of competition (the Three use the same precise standards)


If you are rejoining the discussions after a long absence, you need to 
get up to speed.




--Tim May
"The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the 
government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec  4 09:14:17 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:14:17 -0800
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0C93E9.18326.3CFD4F@localhost>


    --
On 4 Dec 2001, at 10:29, mattd wrote:
> It is cryptoANARCHY isnt it? Not cryptolibertarianism.

Non libertarian anarchy?

The trouble is that a lot of socialists call themselves  
anarchists either as a simple cynical lie:

(parody of standard commie liar)
: : 	"This time the state really will wither away.  
: : 	Trust us.  We are different.  Once we have total 
: : 	power over you and yours you will love it."

or, perhaps more commonly, as mere muddy thinking

(parody of muddle headed socialist)
: : 	"I am really opposed to concentrated authority,  
: : 	therefore when I and people like me have all the 
: : 	necessary power to do all the good we intend to  
: : 	do to those selfish ignorant ungrateful masses,  
: : 	it will be the opposite of concentrated  
: : 	authority."

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     noO5pPej46r7P7h1muODQygDC7StZC5seKNQe7pH
     42DLX4qLtNl4C5FSyuxdyvd8A+pxSAh/GPBn1YAhL




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec  4 09:25:34 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:25:34 -0800
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
In-Reply-To: <20011204191450.G29550@tigerteam.net>
Message-ID: 



On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:14 AM, Fyodor wrote:

>> <> talentless
>> government to exist.>>
>>
>> Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is 
>> incompetent -
>> but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the 
>> more
>> chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs.
>>
>
> Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear understanding
> what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely
> ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare
> to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep
> involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign
> corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
> of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) 
> of
> all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
> russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
> post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
> environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.

This matches everything I have seen about Russia. It simply is 
implausible that "corruption and inefficiency means more opportunities 
for economies behind their backs" (to summarize the argument).

What Russia shows is that privatizing a state-run economy is difficult 
indeed. Gazprom, the big gas and energy company, is a case in point. 
There was no "free market" to acquire the resources of this "privatized" 
company: the thugs and apparatchniks (sp?) grabbed the company. And they 
are willing to use former KGB, GRU, and Spetsnaz killers to enforce 
their monopoly.

What about non-heavy industry? Television, for example? Read about the 
ongoing shutdown of Moscow independent stations and networks, on flimsy 
grounds having the _language_ of capitalism (stuff about "loan default") 
but actually being just part of the thugocracy approach. (The U.S. is 
not blameless here. Our own FCC applies similar rules sometimes to block 
stations. And woe unto any Islamic broadcaster, where the new language 
is that the First Amendment does not apply to "hate speech" or "speech 
insulting to other religions." At this rate, the long-awaited 
convergence of Russia and America is not far off.)

Russia as a haven for Havenco? For digital money? For e-commerce?

Laughable.

--Tim May
>
--Tim May
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third 
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're 
around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Dec  4 09:52:54 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 09:52:54 -0800
Subject: NTT Develops Digital Cash System
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011204095214.03fc7ff8@pop3.lvcm.com>


http://www.ntt.co.jp/news/news01e/0111/011129.html

November 29, 2001
Digital cash that can be used to purchase services and goods with complete
safety and at high speed is here now.
-Its usage is virtually unlimited, from simple store purchases to bus fare
payments to regular cash register transactions.
- Digital cash can be downloaded through many public telephones.




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 23:58:56 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:58:56 +0200
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
References: <3C0BD96E.E0AEEA31@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <0d4101c17c99$862f93b0$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "Michael Motyka" 

> Minimizing the risk of individuals within the organization is
> not equivalent to optimizing the organization's performance.

Good one. Reminds me of the "nobody got fired for buying IBM" phrase I read
a few years ago.

Mark




From iu_ygv_iuyt1 at mail.com  Mon Dec  3 23:11:44 2001
From: iu_ygv_iuyt1 at mail.com (TRE)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:11:44 +0300
Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=D2=D3=D0=C8=C7=CC_=C8_=C4=C5=CB=CE=C2=DB=C5_=CF=CE=C5=C7=C4=CA=C8_=C2_=D0=CE=D1=D1=C8=DE?=
Message-ID: <150882001122471144108@mail.com>


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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 15:29:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:29:50 +1100
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20043&group=webcast

For reprint of pensioners story.AND...

Anarchist Pamphlet (28 pages) (english)
by Blake 12:23pm Mon Dec 3 '01
Blake at riseup.net

This is a critique of the global economy from an anarchist perspective. It 
is meant for outreach to non-anarchists.

Download attached file: anarchistpamphlet.pdf (mimetype: application/pdf )
This is a pamphlet critiquing the global economy from an anarchist 
perspective. It is meant for outreach to non-anarchists. It is written in 
non-technical language and has nice pictures.

It is cryptoANARCHY isnt it? Not cryptolibertarianism.For anarchist and 
social democratic critiques of libertarians,SEE...
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html

Esp...   http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html   I havent seen the 
'blake' one yet,But I am an anarchist getting into crypto and insulted by 
the abuse and disrespecting of anarchism here where its needed the 
most.CRYPTOANARCHY!




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 15:50:00 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:50:00 +1100
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204103927.009fac60@pop.useoz.com>


"...Someone once remarked that the most unimaginitive, laziest Harvard 
graduate students at the bottom of their class tend to end up at the IMF 
and UN. Sort of sinkholes of mediocrity. Oh well! ~Faustine."

Luckily we now have 'open source' AP to take out the ones that get to be 
president.Did you see my 2 previous post F?

1) Faustine wrote...
."..good old boring long-faced church-every-Sunday solid-citizen Robert P.
Hanssen. If his FBI colleagues had been asked to rate him by your above
criteria, he probably would have been in the high 200s all across the
board. And maybe deservedly so. But since those factors weren't in any way,
shape, or form relevant to the fact that he was also the kind of person who
could sell out his country for the sheer pleasure of the game of it, he got
away with murder for years until he got careless and his shitty tradecraft
finally caught up with him."

His tradecraft was rather good I thought,especially in not trusting his
handlers with direct contact.Possibly he was done in by sex addiction
common to many repressed septic tanks(yanks) W.Reichs,mass psychology of
facism describes syndrome.Also wanted on some level to get caught,much like
Ted special K.(and USAma bin laden?)
Did he really get away with murder? Feh.Aldrich ames did and his rep
survived polygraphs so reputations are bollocks unless panocoptincons and
regular stings/tests are done.Hanssen didnt tell the russkies anything they
couldnt have worked out them selves.

No response? Trawling for bigger game? pot bellied,aging brilliant thorns 
in the side of your country? Then...'In praise of gold:

"...nothing more than a cop-out. So it seems to me, at any rate. ~Faustine. "

Like you last week (agent ?) faustine (cop-in?) Silence speaks volumes in
this house.

Im calling you out as a patriotic,slightly dim little bitch at the very 
least,Well?




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 00:52:21 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:52:21 +0200
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "mattd" 

>
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20043&group=webcast

This is almost a classic...

<>

Good. You'd say the author has a brain. (Then again, why would mattd point
to the article in that case?)

But no...

<>

So, the problem is the government, but not because they're evil - no, that's
ok; BECAUSE THEY'RE INEFFICIENT???? Hello? You wanted 99% - 1% instead of
the 95% - 5% divide that you complain about now?

<>

Surprising only for those with no knowledge of economics. Without private
property you can't have development.

But wait!

<>

Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is incompetent -
but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the more
chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs.

<>

The people don't exist, so they can't be natural owners of anything. SOME
people - certain people, Ivan and Natasha and Grigori - can own previously
unowned natural resources, if they use them first. But you can't *return*
unowned property - you can only be the first to claim it. So, go there and
claim it! (No, they'll shoot you. You can fight the government with better
weapons or better ideology. So far, the ideology sucks.)

<>

Ok, so the problem is lack of private property (socialism), and the solution
is? Correct! More socialism! Why the heck would I do anything with my
resources, if almost all the revenue from it would be divided among the
vodka-drinking idiots of the country? (Well, I know, the new man and stuff.)

<>

Ok, so russians don't have money to buy the land, but they have money to
rent it. And the income from these rents? Why, it goes back to themselves!
And so they'll get RICH, RICH, RICH!!! (Dammit, nobody figured this out
before...) Of course, we could encourage the rich bastards to rent a lot of
land, and so we'd take their money and redistribute it. Yes, but what
happens if they subrent it, and then evict tenants for non-payment? We can't
allow that! There are CHILDREN there! (There is a solution to this too -
socialism is wonderful! We'll confiscate their land, vilify them for not
being nice to people, and then ask them to rent it again, because we need
their money.)

[I just realized I use too many damn exclamation points. And profanity.
Hmm... I must like this system.]

<>

Of course, who cares about the fact that Russia is just a small part of the
Union? We're all one big family. (And now that I think about it, all those
Eastern European satellites are just provinces in rebellion. They must join
back or else.)

<>

Actually, the three *basic* factors are labor, natural resources (aka land),
and TIME. Capital is simply producers goods - wealth that was built not for
consumption, but to make future production more efficient.

<>

Oops. Are you sure you want to go there? If you compensate people based on
their investment, then you'll have CAPITALISM! You don't want that! You want
to compensate them *equally*, so that everyone stays at home and becomes a
millionaire from the rents that all the others are paying! Yeah!

<>

The second statement is true, but it actually negates the first. If they
were given to you, then they belong to you.

<>

Actually, your forefathers pretty much killed everyone that dared to oppose
the state, plus they invaded other countries. Nothing's as good as a healthy
dose of nerve, is it?

<>

Anyone close whack this guy over the head, will you? If revenue cannot
belong to individuals, it can't belong to "the nation in the person of each
Russian citizen". (Oh, wait a second, I might be wrong - Russian citizens
might not be individuals, but parts of a super-organism. Who knows? I've
never been there, it's too cold.)

<>

Definitely! Who needs work? We'll all sit and enjoy revenue from the land!
(Thinking about who's going to pay those revenues is economics, and economic
s is boring.)

<>

It is easy, but you failed. (Gee, how do you handle tough stuff?) The market
works when there are buyers and sellers, period. Money is just an
intermediary, one that gets developed by those buyers and sellers because it
helps them find each other easier, and thus they make a better profit.
(Oops! We can't use the p-word here!)

<>

They're not failing. They simply don't exist. You need private property in
order to HAVE anything to sell or buy.

<>

This so reminds me of "we don't sell our country"... (Very popular slogan
right after our "revolution".) Right in line with "we work, not think".

Of course, this isn't impossible - after all, the people of Earth have
managed to get by even without the help of the Martian Trade Federation, so
Russia can do it without any trade with other countries. But the issue here
is: if *I* want to trade with a foreigner (and thus send my income from
rentals and natural resources abroad), will I be forcefully prevented from
doing so? If I will, then it's not private property anymore - it's not MY
income, but the state's, to be used as it sees fit. If I won't, then you'll
see a LOT of revenue going abroad - Russian electronics (to give just one
example) might be solid, but they're horrible when it comes to quality and
design.

Also, notice the reference to "what people really need". This means "what
the State wants" (or, in the case of an alleged anarchist, "what I want").
But they really need it, honest!

<>

Can't do that! Who will force the citizens to pay the rent that will make
everyone rich???

Ok, I got bored.

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 16:05:28 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:05:28 +1100
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204105337.00a1deb0@pop.useoz.com>


Response to...This is often known as "collaborative filtering", and pops up in
systems like NoCeM and GroupLens.  What's cool is that you don't need
transitive trust or even poster reputations (anonymity without so much
vandalism!).  Just give the right reviewers the reputation "good/bad
judgment about which articles are worth reading"--and you can find
them by reviewing some articles yourself and measuring similarity of
answers.  Etc,etc.

The last 2 aussi elections have featured something called 'the worm'.Its a 
dial that the studio audience control at the main debates.Individually 
control and all results show as a wavey line(the worm) on TV for the 
masses.A very strong plunge in the worm when talk turned to the new VAT 
tax,the GST. Some biometric feedback on the political reputation of 
politicians.
The fact barely 50% bother voting in the US and UK being another.Rating 
articles is possible at sydney IMC.Often abused IMO.




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Dec  4 02:33:45 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:33:45 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: FBI Reorganization Posted (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 05:27:50 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: FBI Reorganization Posted


>
>FBI has just created an entire division devoted to "cyber crime," on par
>with its criminal, counter-terrorism and counter-intelligence divisions.
>
>http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/eads/chart.htm

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 16:37:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:37:48 +1100
Subject: Emergency!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204112858.00a25bd0@pop.useoz.com>


Emergence - the tendency of systems to evolve and self-organise - is the 
driving theme of an international digital-art conference in Melbourne this 
week.
Second Iteration, at Monash University, will explore the role of artificial 
intelligence, Darwin's theory of evolution and complex systems in modern 
art and music.

In an ongoing cypherpunks emergency,so called libertarians have been 
exposed as right wing,conservative and corporate shills that hijacked this 
list in a low pathetic attempt to divert and dam the exploding 
cryptoanarchist revolution.
Such 'names' as declan,tim  and ,jamesd stand exposed.They are wreckers of 
the revolution.Damn them to hell.




From infomacao at giganetstore.com  Tue Dec  4 03:45:16 2001
From: infomacao at giganetstore.com (infomacao at giganetstore.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:45:16 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?O_Rudolfo_=E9_um_f=E3_dos__leil=F5es_ao_pre=E7o_da_banana!?=
Message-ID: <055aa17451104c1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>




 


Os leilões ao preço da Banana no Gigaleilão.com
  

Não perca estas oportunidades...
  
Corrector Ortográfico FLiP 3 (Win) - CD-Rom.
Ferramentas fundamentais para a Língua Portuguesa!
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Fecho 07/12 15:00 Base de licitação 4.500$!$ 
  
Webcam III Plus Creative. 
Não gostaria de ver com quem está a comunicar na internet? Compre já por
apenas 6.500$! 
Fecho 07/12 15:00 Base de licitação 6.500$ 
  

Only Pain is real dos Silence Four.
Oportunidade única de ter este magnífico cd ao preço da banana!
Compre já por apenas 1.500$! 
Fecho 07/12 15:00
Base de licitação 1.500$ 
  
Tinteiro Preto 51626A da HP Serie -300/400/500. 
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E muito mais... em www.gigaleilao.com  . 
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mercado online português.

Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços.
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From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Dec  4 10:12:06 2001
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:12:06 -0600
Subject: Registering a moment of invention?
Message-ID: <20011204121206.A2505@manifold.algebra.com>


I invented something that I consider quite valuable.

It is an idea for a mathematical method.

It already works as intended, in a business process.

I am not interested in patenting this shit, however, I want to make sure that
I get the credit for this invention when (if ever) it becomes publicly known.

So I would like some kind of real timestamping service. I would prefer
something meatspace based, like a notary or US mail based or whatever.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

igor




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 17:47:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:47:13 +1100
Subject: Viridian Note 00283: Geeks and Spooks 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204124253.00a1e8e0@pop.useoz.com>


."... I am suggesting secure, accountable devices with digital signatures 
built in. They're cryptographically time-stamped, their voice signals and 
photographs are cryptographically overwritten, proving their source. They 
are tamperproofed, and very sternly verifiable, and usable as proven 
evidence in courts of law. They're not civilian toys, they are genuine 
weapons of information warfare, in much the same way that an unarmed 
Predator surveillance aircraft is a weapon. They are people's media 
weapons. Their proper use requires some training and discretion; it's like 
a citizen's audiovisual arrest. This is the civilian militia Minuteman 
version of surveillance. The omnipresense of this kind of civilian- owned 
and civilian-deployed surveillance would not make anyone's society kinder 
and happier. But it certainly would make that society a very dangerous 
place for urban guerrillas. And it would not centralize the great power of 
surveillance in the unstable hands of unelected functionaries...."

Why stop there? With a personally crypto encoded metalstorm E-Gun you could 
be a 'judge dread',citizen unit of the Anarchist Federation.




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Dec  4 04:51:08 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:51:08 +0000
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0CC6BB.8F5FE723@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


An Metet wrote:
 
> >Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing,
> >putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance
> >for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts
> 
> There are persistent rumors that Havenco does not really host anything on the platform, all bits are on dry land with VPN pipes to the platform, so that it looks off-shore hosted.
> 
> In other words, the platform is a decoy, storage-wise.

Server hosting is now a boring, commodity business.   You needs some
marketing ploy to get mindshare from potential customers.

The kind of people who decide where their company's servers are to be
hosted are often the kind of people who used to make plastic models of
military hardware when they were kids. Who have coffee-table books about
planes with lots of pointy bits. Maybe even ones who read Bruce Sterling
novels. They also like to think that their data is Really Important.

Sealand or the Bunker (http://www.thebunker.net/) are good PR,
regardless of the technical merits of their locations.

Ken Brown




From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Tue Dec  4 11:49:44 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:50:44 -0459
Subject: Just Received New Motorola V 60c In  $ 369.00 !!!
Message-ID: <20011204163162.SM01068@carlo>

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From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Tue Dec  4 11:49:45 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:50:45 -0459
Subject: Just Received New Motorola V 60c In  $ 369.00 !!!
Message-ID: <200112041631406.SM01068@carlo>

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From faustine at lokmail.net  Tue Dec  4 11:57:04 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:57:04 -0500
Subject: in praise of gold
Message-ID: <200112041957.OAA14935@mail.lokmail.net>

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From jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  4 07:23:31 2001
From: jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com (jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:23:31 -00
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <1400217-220011224152331580@hotmail.com>


hello




From jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  4 07:23:35 2001
From: jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com (jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:23:35 -00
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <832818-220011224152335150@hotmail.com>


hello




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 05:28:27 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:28:27 +0200
Subject: Reputation capital
Message-ID: <0dea01c17cc7$8ebe8030$5300a8c0@marcel>


I think all this stuff about reputations is being solved pretty neatly by
the credit bureaus... up to getting scalars on people / companies.

Mark




From mdfa43 at dial.pipex.com  Tue Dec  4 08:33:52 2001
From: mdfa43 at dial.pipex.com (MoneyLink)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 01 16:33:52 GMT Standard Time
Subject: Shocking way of making 1 Million Dollars on the Internet...
Message-ID: <200112041757.JAA25482@toad.com>

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From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Tue Dec  4 07:49:40 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:49:40 +0100
Subject: ashcroft still buggering freedom
References: <3C0BA761.B9672245@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <51eaa34857ad85d31cfbe34b650c1af2@mix.winterorbit.com>


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

[reformated as a courtesy to the list]

> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20011201/ts/ashcroft_seeking_to_free_f_b_i_to_spy_on_groups_1.html
>
> Saturday December 01 09:01 AM EST
>
> Ashcroft Seeking to Free F.B.I. to Spy on Groups
>
> By DAVID JOHNSTON and DON VAN NATTA Jr. The New York Times
>
> Attorney General John Ashcroft is considering a plan to relax
> restrictions on the F.B.I.'s spying on religious and political
> organizations.
>
> WASHINGTON, Nov. 30 Attorney General John Ashcroft is considering
> a plan to relax restrictions on the F.B.I.'s spying on religious
> and political organizations in the United States, senior government
> officials said today.
>
> The proposal would loosen one of the most fundamental restrictions
> on the conduct of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and would be
> another step by the Bush administration to modify civil-liberties
> protections as a means of defending the country against terrorists,
> the senior officials said.
>
> The attorney general's surveillance guidelines were imposed on the
> F.B.I. in the 1970's after the death of J. Edgar Hoover and the
> disclosures that the F.B.I. had run a widespread domestic surveillance
> program, called Cointelpro, to monitor antiwar militants, the Ku Klux
> Klan, the Black Panthers and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.,
> among others, while Mr. Hoover was director.
>
> Since then, the guidelines have defined the F.B.I.'s operational
> conduct in investigations of domestic and overseas groups that operate
> in the United States.
>
> Some officials who oppose the change said the rules had largely kept
> the F.B.I. out of politically motivated investigations, protecting the
> bureau from embarrassment and lawsuits. But others, including senior
> Justice Department officials, said the rules were outmoded and geared
> to obsolete investigative methods and had at times hobbled F.B.I.
> counterterrorism efforts.
>
> Mr. Ashcroft and the F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, favor the
> change, the officials said. Most of the opposition comes from career
> officials at the F.B.I. and the Justice Department.
>
> A Justice Department spokeswoman said today that no final decision had
> been reached on the revised guidelines.
>
> "As part of the attorney general's reorganization," said Susan Dryden,
> the spokeswoman, "we are conducting a comprehensive review of all
> guidelines, policies and procedures. All of these are still under
> review."
>
> An F.B.I. spokesman said the bureau's approach to terrorism was also
> under review.
>
> "Director Mueller's view is that everything should be on the table
> for review," the spokesman, John Collingwood, said. "He is more than
> willing to embrace change when doing so makes us a more effective
> component. A healthy review process doesn't come at the expense of the
> historic protections inherent in our system."
>
> The attorney general is free to revise the guidelines, but Justice
> Department officials said it was unclear how heavily they would be
> revised. There are two sets of guidelines, for domestic and foreign
> groups, and most of the discussion has centered on the largely
> classified rules for investigations of foreign groups.
>
> The relaxation of the guidelines would follow administration measures
> to establish military tribunals to try foreigners accused of
> terrorism; to seek out and question 5,000 immigrants, most of them
> Muslims, who have entered the United States since January 2000; and to
> arrest more than 1,200 people, nearly all of whom are unconnected to
> the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, and hold hundreds of them in jail.
>
> Today, Mr. Ashcroft defended his initiatives in an impassioned speech
> to United States attorneys.
>
> "Our efforts have been deliberate, they've been coordinated, they've
> been carefully crafted to not only protect America but to respect the
> Constitution and the rights enshrined therein," Mr. Ashcroft said.
>
> "Still," he added, "there have been a few voices who have criticized.
> Some have sought to condemn us with faulty facts or without facts
> at all. Others have simply rushed to judgment, almost eagerly
> assuming the worst of their government before they've had a chance to
> understand it at its best."
>
> Under the current surveillance guidelines, the F.B.I. cannot send
> undercover agents to investigate groups that gather at places like
> mosques or churches unless investigators first find probable cause, or
> evidence leading them to believe that someone in the group may have
> broken the law. Full investigations of this sort cannot take place
> without the attorney general's consent.
>
> Since Sept. 11, investigators have said, Islamic militants have
> sometimes met at mosques apparently knowing that the religious
> institutions are usually off limits to F.B.I. surveillance squads.
> Some officials are now saying they need broader authority to conduct
> surveillance of potential terrorists, no matter where they are.
>
> Senior career F.B.I. officials complained that they had not been
> consulted about the proposed change a criticism they have expressed
> about other Bush administration counterterrorism measures. When the
> Justice Department decided to use military tribunals to try accused
> terrorists, and to interview thousands of Muslim men in the United
> States, the officials said they were not consulted.
>
> Justice Department officials noted that Mr. Mueller had endorsed the
> administration's proposals, adding that the complaints were largely
> from older F.B.I. officials who were resistant to change and unwilling
> to take the aggressive steps needed to root out terror in the United
> States. Other officials said the Justice Department had consulted with
> F.B.I. lawyers and some operational managers about the change.
>
> But in a series of recent interviews, several senior career officials
> at the F.B.I. said it would be a serious mistake to weaken the
> guidelines, and they were upset that the department had not clearly
> described the proposed changes.
>
> "People are furious right now very, very angry," one of them said.
> "They just assume they know everything. When you don't consult with
> anybody, it sends the message that you assume you know everything. And
> they don't know everything."
>
> Still, some complaints seem to stem from the F.B.I.'s shifting status
> under Mr. Ashcroft. Weakened by a series of problems that predated the
> Sept. 11 attacks, the F.B.I. has been forced to follow orders from the
> Justice Department a change that many law enforcement experts thought
> was long overdue. In the past, the bureau leadership had far more
> independence and authority to make its own decisions.
>
> Several senior officials are leaving the F.B.I., including Thomas J.
> Pickard, the deputy director. He was the senior official in charge of
> the investigation of the attacks and was among top F.B.I. officials
> who were opposed to another decision of the Bush administration, the
> public announcements of Oct. 12 and Oct. 29 that placed the country on
> the highest state of alert in response to vague but credible threats
> of a possible second terrorist attack. Mr. Pickard is said to have
> been opposed to publicizing threats that were too vague to provide any
> precautionary advice.
>
> Many F.B.I. officials regard the administration's plan to establish
> military tribunals as an extreme step that diminishes the F.B.I.'s
> role because it creates a separate prosecutorial system run by the
> military.
>
> "The only thing I have seen about the tribunals is what I have seen in
> the newspapers," a senior official complained.
>
> Another official said many senior law enforcement officials shared
> his concern about the tribunals. "I believe in the rule of law, and I
> believe if we have a case to make against someone, we should make it
> in a federal courtroom in the United States," he said.
>
> Several senior F.B.I. officials said the tribunal system should be
> reserved for senior Al Qaeda members apprehended by the military in
> Afghanistan or other foreign countries.
>
> Few were involved in deliberations that led to the directive Mr.
> Ashcroft issued this month to interview immigrant men living
> legally in the United States. F.B.I. officials have complained that
> the interview plan was begun before its ramifications were fully
> understood.
>
> "None of this was thought through, a senior official said. "They just
> announced it, and left it to others to figure out how to do it."
>
> The arrests and detentions of more than 1,200 people since Sept. 11
> have also aroused concerns at the F.B.I. Officials noted that the
> investigations had found no conspirators in the United States who
> aided the hijackers in the Sept. 11 attacks and only a handful of
> people who were considered Al Qaeda members.
>
> "This came out of the White House, and Ashcroft's office," a senior
> official said. "There are tons of things coming out of there these
> days where there is absolutely no consultation with the bureau."
>
> Some at the F.B.I. have been openly skeptical about claims that
> some of the 1,200 people arrested were Al Qaeda members and that
> the strategy of making widespread arrests had disrupted or thwarted
> planned attacks.
>
> "It's just not the case," an official said. "We have 10 or 12 people
> we think are Al Qaeda people, and that's it. And for some of them,
> it's based only on conjecture and suspicion."




From analwhores at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  4 17:12:20 2001
From: analwhores at yahoo.co.uk (analwhores at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:12:20
Subject: Hardcore Anal Bitches Take It Hard!
Message-ID: <16.400572.74711@yahoo.co.uk>

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From anon at remailer.ukf.net  Tue Dec  4 09:34:09 2001
From: anon at remailer.ukf.net (Anonymous)
Date: 4 Dec 2001 17:34:09 -0000
Subject: [Reformatted] Reichstag Anthrax: not just greenpeace suggesting
  it..
References: <3C0BA9A9.8D97AA8@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <2B3AJTXY37229.7320486111@anonymous>


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

> excerpt from http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/03/national/03POWD.html
>
> The preliminary analysis of the powder shows that it has the same
> extraordinarily high concentration of deadly spores as the anthrax
> produced in the American weapons program. While it is still possible
> that the anthrax could have a foreign source, the concentration
> is higher than any stock publicly known to be produced by other
> governments.
>
> The similarity to the levels achieved by the United States military
> lends support to the idea that someone with ties to the old program
> may be behind the attacks that have killed five people. The Federal
> Bureau of Investigation recently expanded its investigation of anthrax
> suspects to include government and contractor laboratories as a
> possible source of the deadly powder itself, or of knowledge of how to
> make it.




From MoSecrets2Success at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  4 14:43:31 2001
From: MoSecrets2Success at hotmail.com (The Money Life)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:43:31 -0500
Subject: Make 5,000 A Week, Get FREE Information
Message-ID: <20011204224331.UPMV6523.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@[66.156.210.77]>

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From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 07:48:33 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:48:33 +0200
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
  <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>
  <20011204191450.G29550@tigerteam.net>
Message-ID: <0efd01c17cdb$20af83a0$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "Fyodor" 

> Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear understanding
> what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely
> ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare
> to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep
> involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign
> corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
> of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) of
> all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
> russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
> post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
> environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.

I understand that, but I thought having *incompetent* corrupt people is
better than having *competent* ones! Who said "let's be happy that we don't
have all the government that we're paying for" (or something like that)? The
flaw here is the idea that the government COULD be a good thing, provided
that the governors are competent. I disagree with that.

> > is? Correct! More socialism! Why the heck would I do anything with my
> > resources, if almost all the revenue from it would be divided among the
> > vodka-drinking idiots of the country? (Well, I know, the new man and
stuff.)
>
> not all are vodka drinking idiots. but your statement makes sense. :-)

I'm not saying that all russians are such. (Not that I love them, being from
an ex-satellite...) Only that a significant number are (just like a
significant number of Americans are "couch potatoes"), and having to share
my earnings with them is a big disincentive.

> What's worse, is that it's been observed in some country side areas,
> when one guy is managing to do good on his land, the others get jealous
> or something, and his house could get burnt eventually with no reason..
> happened a few times a few years ago.

Yep. As Ian Clarke (the initiator of Freenet) said, Americans look at the
big mansion on the hill and say "one day I'll have one of those", while
Irish (or Romanians, or Russians...) say "one day we'll burn that
sonofabitch".

> Come on. Keep in mind that this statement was written by 'a party of
> pensioners'. Which means by people in age of 50 and above with strong
> socialist background. They are trying to find a solution to the problem,
> the only problem here, is that they still apply old patterns to it.

That's what I was objecting to :) The solution is obvious: capitalism. The
real one, not the fascist version.

> > Of course, who cares about the fact that Russia is just a small part of
the
> > Union?
>
> Union? Which Union? I doubt russia is welcomed to European Union (update
> me if I am wrong) and there's no former Soviet Union either. More over
> the Union of Idependent Countries, seems to be getting gone piece by
> piece, at least now you need to proper visa if you want to visit Russia
> from one of the 'former' republics.

Really? I didn't know that. Anyway, being old people and so on, I am sure
they are nostalgic about the One Big Union.

> whatever.. hope my comments are helpful ;-)

Well, at least there's two of us 

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 22:57:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:57:48 +1100
Subject: in praise of gold, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204175248.009fe460@pop.useoz.com>


"It doesn't take a judgment by society at large to realize that some
people really are better off alone instead of inflicting their destructive
fucked-up personality on others (psychotics, alcoholics, etc)."

What about silly little girls inflicting their e-gold (!) opinions.

"if more people refused to cave in to societal pressures and thought about
what they really wanted to do with their lives (instead of blindly falling into
the "spouse, family, 9 to 5 job" trap out of conformism and a fear of the
unknown) it would be a great thing."

Whoopdy doo! Fergedabout ask abbie! Ask Faustine!...only dont ask if 
she/he/its an agent.

Previously posted,she may be what she claims,after aimee,though...

"...Someone once remarked that the most unimaginitive, laziest Harvard
graduate students at the bottom of their class tend to end up at the IMF
and UN. Sort of sinkholes of mediocrity. Oh well! ~Faustine."

Luckily we now have 'open source' AP to take out the ones that get to be
president.Did you see my 2 previous post F?

1) Faustine wrote...
."..good old boring long-faced church-every-Sunday solid-citizen Robert P.
Hanssen. If his FBI colleagues had been asked to rate him by your above
criteria, he probably would have been in the high 200s all across the
board. And maybe deservedly so. But since those factors weren't in any way,
shape, or form relevant to the fact that he was also the kind of person who
could sell out his country for the sheer pleasure of the game of it, he got
away with murder for years until he got careless and his shitty tradecraft
finally caught up with him."

His tradecraft was rather good I thought,especially in not trusting his
handlers with direct contact.Possibly he was done in by sex addiction
common to many repressed septic tanks(yanks) W.Reichs,mass psychology of
facism describes syndrome.Also wanted on some level to get caught,much like
Ted special K.(and USAma bin laden?)
Did he really get away with murder? Feh.Aldrich ames did and his rep
survived polygraphs so reputations are bollocks unless panocoptincons and
regular stings/tests are done.Hanssen didnt tell the russkies anything they
couldnt have worked out them selves.

No response? Trawling for bigger game? pot bellied,aging brilliant thorns
in the side of your country? Then...'In praise of gold:

"...nothing more than a cop-out. So it seems to me, at any rate. ~Faustine. "

Like you last week (agent ?) faustine (cop-in?) Silence speaks volumes in
this house.

Im calling you out as a patriotic,extremely dim little bitch at the very
least,Well?

END reprints 'smart as whip 'F missed in the wash.

(changed slightly dim to the above)Do you take messages for agent 
farr,agent faustine,Ive got a tip for her.




From mail at teleseminarsrus.com  Tue Dec  4 15:01:20 2001
From: mail at teleseminarsrus.com (TeleseminarsRus)
Date: 4 Dec 2001 18:01:20 -0500
Subject: We Are Calling It The Who Let The Calls Out, Dont Be Left On The Sidelines, Make Money Now Intern
Message-ID: <7760446668@mail.1shoppingcart.com>


**TeleSeminarsrus Presents The First Ever InternetSeminar, Featuring 
David 'Covered Call King' Skidmore**

	You enjoyed him for the TeleSeminar and you wanted more, well we talked 
him into doing an hour long InternetSeminar On Saturday Morning, December 8th.

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2.  Stock Analysis  
3.  Call and Premium Analysis
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To Sign up call 1-888-870-9754 or fax this form to 413-294-4532.  First come, 
first serve basis.

The cost is $499.    Register By December 6th, 2001 and get this special price 
$199. Members receive this Web-Conference as part of their membership 
benefits.  Contact us to see how you can become a member. 



If you want to be removed from our mailing list make sure you follow the 
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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 23:20:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 18:20:10 +1100
Subject: 'software error' 37,000 to cato.a "libertarian" institute.,
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204181331.00a43160@pop.useoz.com>


"Ok, someone PLEASE enlighten me... WHAT on Earth is the problem here? They
paid TOO MUCH in taxes, so they have to pay a fine???

Mark"
END.

The problem for me is the false advertising on this list RE:Libertarianism.

Its the cypherPUNKS list NOT the cyphershills list.




From email at laugh5.com  Tue Dec  4 05:31:25 2001
From: email at laugh5.com (Laugh5.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 19:01:25 +0530
Subject: Laugh5.com
Message-ID: <20011204235205.CF44213D92@mail.laugh5.com>

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From fygrave at tigerteam.net  Tue Dec  4 04:14:50 2001
From: fygrave at tigerteam.net (Fyodor)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:14:50 +0700
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
In-Reply-To: <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>; from
  mdpopescu@yahoo.com on Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 10:52:21AM +0200
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
  <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: <20011204191450.G29550@tigerteam.net>


> < government to exist.>>
> 
> Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is incompetent -
> but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the more
> chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs.
> 

Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear understanding
what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely
ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare
to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep
involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign
corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) of
all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.

> is? Correct! More socialism! Why the heck would I do anything with my
> resources, if almost all the revenue from it would be divided among the
> vodka-drinking idiots of the country? (Well, I know, the new man and stuff.)

not all are vodka drinking idiots. but your statement makes sense. :-)
What's worse, is that it's been observed in some country side areas,
when one guy is managing to do good on his land, the others get jealous
or something, and his house could get burnt eventually with no reason..
happened a few times a few years ago.

> allow that! There are CHILDREN there! (There is a solution to this too -
> socialism is wonderful! We'll confiscate their land, vilify them for not

Come on. Keep in mind that this statement was written by 'a party of
pensioners'. Which means by people in age of 50 and above with strong
socialist background. They are trying to find a solution to the problem,
the only problem here, is that they still apply old patterns to it.

> Of course, who cares about the fact that Russia is just a small part of the
> Union?

Union? Which Union? I doubt russia is welcomed to European Union (update
me if I am wrong) and there's no former Soviet Union either. More over
the Union of Idependent Countries, seems to be getting gone piece by
piece, at least now you need to proper visa if you want to visit Russia
from one of the 'former' republics.

> income, but the state's, to be used as it sees fit. If I won't, then you'll
> see a LOT of revenue going abroad - Russian electronics (to give just one
> example) might be solid, but they're horrible when it comes to quality and
> design.

Quality is usually good. ;-) (you can use a pocket radio to hitch nails
f.e. ;-)) Design is scarey, but that's a postsequence of post-socialism
way of working. Noone cares if something looks good as long as it is
practical ;-)

[snip snip]
whatever.. hope my comments are helpful ;-) 
-- 
http://www.notlsd.net
PGP fingerprint = 56DD 1511 DDDA 56D7 99C7  B288 5CE5 A713 0969 A4D1




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Tue Dec  4 20:05:21 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:05:21 -0800
Subject: Einstein.ssz.com down hard...
In-Reply-To: ;
  from measl@mfn.org on Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 09:36:27PM -0600
References: 
Message-ID: <20011204200521.A57012@neutraldomain.org>


		On Tue, Dec 04, at 09:36PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
| 18  DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.101)  121 ms
| DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105)  115 ms DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net
| (205.238.159.101)  113 ms
| 19  * * DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105)  104 ms !H
| 20  DS3-R6-1b-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.93)  79 ms !H *
| DS3-R6-1a-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.77)  92 ms !H

ssz may entirely be up, but routers before them seem pretty fucked
up.




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Dec  4 18:08:11 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:08:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: eCash reported mortally wounded...
Message-ID: 



Reposted as the first one bounced "no route to host" :

http://fuckedcompany.com/

>Cashed
 Rumor has it eCash.net will be closing down any day now... aquisition fell
 through, around 40 people soon-to-be jobless.
 When: 12/4/2001
 Company: eCash.net
 Severity: 100 - new hall of fame inductee!



-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From vh1_newsletters at vh1.com  Mon Dec  3 17:26:03 2001
From: vh1_newsletters at vh1.com (VH1.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 20:26:03 +1900
Subject: VH1 Save the Music Holiday Auction
Message-ID: <200112050121.fB51LUU10337@mail1.lga2.mtvn.com>

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From debt_collectors at btamail.net.cn  Tue Dec  4 20:46:35 2001
From: debt_collectors at btamail.net.cn (Debt Collectors)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:46:35
Subject: Collect Your Money! Time:8:46:35 PM
Message-ID: <200112050129.JAA0000001319@ISserver.mei>


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Indicate the best time to telephone and any necessary addresses and 
telephone/fax numbers in the text of your reply.

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at (212) 213-3000 Ext 1425.

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P.S. -- If you are not in need of our services at this time, please retain this 
message for future use or past it on to a friend. 




From email at mediaspan.rsc03.com  Tue Dec  4 21:04:54 2001
From: email at mediaspan.rsc03.com (CD Nut Music and Movie Store)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:04:54 -0800
Subject: Win hundreds of prizes from your favorite movies!!!
Message-ID: <200112050505.VAA19041@toad.com>

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From measl at mfn.org  Tue Dec  4 19:36:27 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:36:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Einstein.ssz.com down hard...
Message-ID: 


Here's the current network traceroute to einstein.ssz.com: 
 1  64.71.128.30 (64.71.128.30)  2 ms  2 ms  2 ms
 2  gige-g0-0.gsr12008.pao.he.net (216.218.130.7)  2 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 3  209.213.211.165 (209.213.211.165)  3 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 4  rif15.pal001bd01.yipes.com (66.54.194.117)  3 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 5  ge-0-0-0.pal001jp01.yipes.com (209.50.34.184)  201 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 6  500.Gig2-0.GW4.PAO1.ALTER.NET (157.130.214.197)  7 ms  7 ms  7 ms
 7  124.ATM3-0.XR1.PAO1.ALTER.NET (146.188.148.90)  6 ms  6 ms  43 ms
 8  0.so-0-0-0.XL1.PAO1.ALTER.NET (152.63.54.73)  7 ms  7 ms  7 ms
 9  0.so-3-0-0.TL1.SAC1.ALTER.NET (152.63.53.250)  8 ms  8 ms  7 ms
10  0.so-7-0-0.TL1.DFW9.ALTER.NET (152.63.10.13)  83 ms  46 ms  46 ms
11  0.so-7-0-0.XL1.DFW9.ALTER.NET (152.63.0.194)  47 ms  46 ms  49 ms
12  0.so-4-0-0.XR1.DFW9.ALTER.NET (152.63.101.254)  46 ms  46 ms  47 ms
13  185.ATM7-0.XR1.DFW4.ALTER.NET (152.63.96.145)  47 ms  47 ms  46 ms
14  195.ATM4-0.GW2.NOL1.ALTER.NET (152.63.96.113)  65 ms  65 ms  65 ms
15  aperianT3tx-gw.customer.alter.net (157.130.146.154)  78 ms  76 ms  78 ms
16  router6.realtime.net (204.181.160.33)  79 ms  80 ms  79 ms
17  router6.realtime.net (204.181.160.33)  80 ms  80 ms  79 ms
18  DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.101)  121 ms
DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105)  115 ms DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net
(205.238.159.101)  113 ms
19  * * DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105)  104 ms !H
20  DS3-R6-1b-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.93)  79 ms !H *
DS3-R6-1a-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.77)  92 ms !H


Result for einstein.ssz.com;   modeset: {AS-Query , ICMP-Query ,
SOA-Owner-Query }: 
traceroute.exe to einstein.ssz.com (204.96.2.99), 30 hops max, 38 byte
packets
 1  router.redhat.com (199.183.24.225) [AS2551] noc at redhat.com  59.027 ms
77.755 ms  69.665 ms
 2  Loopback0.GW3.RDU1.ALTER.NET (137.39.5.13) [AS701]
hostmaster at uunet.UU.NET  59.605 ms  117.787 ms  59.462 ms
 3  178.ATM2-0.XR2.DCA1.ALTER.NET (146.188.162.70) [AS702] hostmaster at uu.net
69.686 ms  58.206 ms  59.635 ms
 4  294.at-1-1-0.XR2.DCA6.ALTER.NET (152.63.33.34) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
109.485 ms  137.772 ms  79.653 ms
 5  0.so-1-3-0.XL2.DCA6.ALTER.NET (152.63.35.118) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
79.520 ms  107.823 ms  59.530 ms
 6  152.63.0.234 (152.63.0.234) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net  69.654 ms  109.072
ms  69.673 ms
 7  0.so-6-0-0.TL2.HOU7.ALTER.NET (152.63.39.182) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
69.615 ms  58.851 ms  79.739 ms
 8  0.so-6-1-0.XL2.HOU7.ALTER.NET (152.63.101.194) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
89.632 ms  88.875 ms  59.782 ms
 9  O.so-4-0-0.XR2.HOU7.ALTER.NET (152.63.102.14) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
69.723 ms  58.917 ms  59.742 ms
10  192.ATM7-0.GW2.AUS1.ALTER.NET (152.63.100.69) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
89.690 ms  128.910 ms  119.693 ms
11  msiholding-gw.customer.alter.net (157.130.142.210) [AS701]
hostmaster at uu.net  139.646 ms  79.649 ms  119.775 ms
12  router6.realtime.net (204.181.160.33) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com  69.690
ms  70.628 ms  71.939 ms
13  router6.realtime.net (204.181.160.33) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com  64.000
ms  64.076 ms  78.425 ms
14  DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com
83.948 ms DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.101) [AS2933]
hostmaster at bga.com  91.603 ms DS3-R6-1b-n.realtime.net
(205.238.159.93) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com  90.330 ms
15  DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com
103.427 ms !H DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.101) [AS2933]
hostmaster at bga.com  90.685 ms !H *



-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec  4 21:46:01 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:46:01 -0800
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205073521.00a226b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011204214601.00808a20@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:58 AM 12/5/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>"Non libertarian anarchy?"
>

Non-lib anarchy is gang rule.  Libs support a minimal
govt to protect everyones' rights.




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 21:50:18 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:50:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: in praise of gold
In-Reply-To: <200112041957.OAA14935@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <20011205055018.71937.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>


> Compare the sum total of misery in this world to the sum total of happiness
and
> get back to me. Read some Schopenhauer and early Nietzsche, you'd probably
find 
> a lot to agree with too.

What happiness ? Have you ever seen anyone happy (on this list) ?

Nietzsche admitted that he wrote the stuff just to attract chics. It didn't
work.

> No, not at all. If you prefer spending time with psychotics and alcoholics,
go

I don't prefer, but they won't go away. And they call me psychotic.

> >You are a bigot.
> 
> Care to broaden that out to "misanthrope"? 
> You bet. ;)

No, I meant a logical bigot.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec  4 22:43:49 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:43:49 -0800
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205073521.00a226b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0D51A5.22524.6312C2@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald (parodying muddle headed anarcho socialists)
> : : 	"I am really opposed to concentrated authority, 
> : : 	therefore when I and people like me have all 
> : : 	the necessary power to do all the good we
> : : 	intend to do to those selfish ignorant
> : : 	ungrateful masses, it will be the opposite of
> : : 	concentrated authority."

On 5 Dec 2001, at 7:58, mattd wrote:
> I AM really opposed to concentrated authority!

I am sure you are. but if you intend socialism you intend 
highly concentrated authority.

As I repeatedly said elsewhere:

Without property rights in the means of production to 
separate one man's plan from another man's plan, there can 
only be one plan, one plan for everything, one plan for 
everyone, one plan that all must obey. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Isj1y9aDNlFy3CjcnBmWK8i3cUGIiRrPC+8jZacL
     4pYP/LfcZpp2ewlu6qIihJYabKZKnqPMNj+eWynRz




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Tue Dec  4 23:46:41 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue,  4 Dec 2001 23:46:41 -0800
Subject: fuel injected firearm
Message-ID: <200112050746.fB57kfN77789@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>


>2. Liquid propellant guns (search on that term) are well
>developed for artillary, but I don't know of any light 
>weapons which use this. LPGs are kind of neat in 
>howitzer type applications because (1) A tank of
>propellant & a rack of projectiles takes less space
>than cased solid propellant shells, so you can carry
>more ammo, and (2) you can vary the propellant
>from shot to shot based on emergent conditions. One
>neat hack is 'time on target' in which a series of rounds
>are fired in quick succession, at different elevations and
>propellant load so they all arrive at the target simultaneously.
>(the LPG liquid propellant does not need an added oxidizer).
>
>Peter Trei

Indeed.  See http://yarchive.net/mil/liquid_propellant.html
My ideas were more along the mono-propellent direction using hydrogen peroxide or N-Propyl Nitrate decomposed on a silver/nickel catalyst bed.




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Dec  4 21:13:45 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:13:45 -0500
Subject: Comrades.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205083914.00a25130@pop.useoz.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205083914.00a25130@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011205001345.A10899@ils.unc.edu>


Two words:  Hubble telescope.


On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:41:41AM +1100, mattd wrote:
> 
> Comrades who may have any experience with this or constructive suggestions,
> thoughts or advise, please feel free to contact us direct or respond on
> this list and we will forward.
> 
> Thanks and solidarity,
> NY-NJ Workers Solidarity Alliance
> wsany at hotmail.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Dear Surveillance Camera Players: My name is Fred B., I am the
> President of a Local Union of the American Flint Glass Workers
> Union We are in the formidable stages of  a grievance process which is
> likely to end at an arbitration hearing, concerning our company installing
> Surveillance Equipment.
> 
> Is there anything you could do or recommend for us that would
> be a show of not only Disgust but also Defiance?
> 
> Yours' In Solidarity
> Fred
> Im not smart so Ill handball it to youse.mattd.Help please,thank you.




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Dec  5 04:44:54 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 06:44:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: ssz switchover test
Message-ID: 


testing lne: ssz appears down hard :-(

1235

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Wed Dec  5 03:47:09 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 06:47:09 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB500000147A@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Wed Dec  5 04:49:08 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:49:08 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001485@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec  4 12:58:58 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:58:58 +1100
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205073521.00a226b0@pop.useoz.com>


"Non libertarian anarchy?"

Libertarian socialism,anarchy.anarcho-sydicalism,green anarchy,eko Anarki 
yes.(Libertarian anarchy?: Redundant.)

"The trouble is that a lot of socialists call themselves
anarchists either as a simple cynical lie:
(parody of standard commie liar)
: : "This time the state really will wither away.
: : Trust us. We are different. Once we have total
: : power over you and yours you will love it."

Yes,so? They are quite easy to expose and I pursue chomsky,Klein and others 
to pin them down.I oppose the state above all.The biggest most 
dangerous(amerdika) first.All anarchists should do the same IMHO.

: "I am really opposed to concentrated authority,
: : therefore when I and people like me have all the
: : necessary power to do all the good we intend to
: : do to those selfish ignorant ungrateful masses,
: : it will be the opposite of concentrated
: : authority."

I AM really opposed to concentrated authority! Thats why Im an anarchist 
and NOT a 'libertarian' I dont seek 'necessary power' for anything except 
operation soft drill.I have great faith in the spontaneous altruistic 
enlightened grateful masses to overthrow the last empire.You sound a little 
bitter and twisted on this subject james,are you OK?




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec  5 08:07:09 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:07:09 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Untraceable money now more than ever!
Message-ID: <22C24828-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>


[Retransmission. Due to periodic problems with lne.com, I started
sending my messages to ssz.com a few days ago. Alas, ssz.com has had an
outage. Hence these retransmissions. Sorry for any dupes.]

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Tim May 
> Date: Tue Dec 04, 2001  08:50:24 AM US/Pacific
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Untraceable money now more than ever!
>
> Or, "Why We Fight."
>
> Just thought I'd pass along this gem I found in one of the newsgroups.
> If true, it shows the unlawful/extralegal reach of government into the
> pockets of persons not tried, not convicted, not even charged, not even
> plausibly guilty of anything.
>
> This guy is having his OWN MONEY blocked, probed, and frozen. No
> charges, no court, just done by forces unseen to him.
>
> Editorial comment: The Founders would likely be stunned to see
> bureaucrats in a distant city able to reach in and essentially grab the
> money of a person without any due process, without fines or
> court-ordered seizures, just on the say-so of a bureaucrat. This guy
> below _wrote_ about it, so there are probably hundreds more just like
> him who choose not to further anger Big Brother by writing angry
> letters.
>
> Me, I'd be so angry I'd probably be strapping on the plastic
> explosives....
>
> Read it and stoke your righteous anger:
>
> --begin article--
> This was in today's Washington Post.  Check it out at
> www.washingtonpost.com
>
> =============== Letters to the Post ==
> Whose Sacrifice?
>
> Monday, December 3, 2001; Page A20
>
> American citizens are willing to sacrifice civil liberties in the fight
> against terrorism [front page, Nov. 29], but which Americans are doing
> the sacrificing?
>
> Since Sept. 11 the FBI has interviewed me at work and at home because
> my name is similar not to that of one of the hijackers, but to an
> individual arrested with suspected links to the terrorists.
>
> The FBI has contacted my broker, my neighbors and my friends to learn
> more about me. I was purchasing an apartment, but when I needed to give
> my down payment at closing I was informed by my bank that my accounts
> were frozen. No one informed me nor could anyone help me resolve the
> problem. Only an angry settlement attorney was able to unfreeze the
> funds.
>
> A month passed, and all seemed normal. Then I found out again that I
> did not have access to transfer funds from my accounts without
> government approval.
>
> I am a federal employee. I have not been charged with a crime. I do not
> support terrorism, and I was willing to help the law enforcement
> agencies. It was my duty as an American to answer all the questions
> asked of me.
>
> But as time goes by and I have to get "clearance" every time I want to
> make a bank transfer, I feel victimized. Every time I travel and receive
> the extra security checks because of my name it makes me trust my
> government less. What scares me even more is that I am an American
> citizen, and that is why I am not in jail. If I were not a citizen I
> could be one of the hundreds of detainees, or I could be in sitting in
> front of a secret military court only because the crime I am guilty of
> is that my name is Ali Ayub and not Joe Smith.
>
> ALI AYUB
>
> Arlington
>
>  7 2001 The Washington Post Company
>
> --end article--
>
>
>
> --Tim May
> "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
> hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
> around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet
--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec  5 08:07:47 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:07:47 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Reputation capital
Message-ID: <392A28D4-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>


[Retransmission. Due to periodic problems with lne.com, I started 
sending my messages to ssz.com a few days ago. Alas, ssz.com has had an 
outage. Hence these retransmissions. Sorry for any dupes.]


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Tim May 
> Date: Tue Dec 04, 2001  08:56:01 AM US/Pacific
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Reputation capital
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 05:28 AM, Marcel Popescu wrote:
>
>> I think all this stuff about reputations is being solved pretty neatly 
>> by
>> the credit bureaus... up to getting scalars on people / companies.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> This is naive. Credit bureaus handle only a particular class of 
> reputations, certain types of credit-worthiness, and then with 
> well-documented deep flaws:
>
> -- regulation by government
>
> -- "Fair Credit Reporting Act" forbids them from "remembering" certain 
> classes of defaults and welshings
>
> -- lack of competition (the Three use the same precise standards)
>
>
> If you are rejoining the discussions after a long absence, you need to 
> get up to speed.
>
>
>
>
> --Tim May
> "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the 
> government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton
>
>
--Tim May
"That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec  5 08:08:16 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:08:16 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
Message-ID: <4A831952-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>


[Retransmission. Due to periodic problems with lne.com, I started 
sending my messages to ssz.com a few days ago. Alas, ssz.com has had an 
outage. Hence these retransmissions. Sorry for any dupes.]


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Tim May 
> Date: Tue Dec 04, 2001  09:25:34 AM US/Pacific
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:14 AM, Fyodor wrote:
>
>>> <>> talentless
>>> government to exist.>>
>>>
>>> Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is 
>>> incompetent -
>>> but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the 
>>> more
>>> chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear 
>> understanding
>> what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely
>> ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare
>> to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep
>> involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign
>> corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
>> of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any 
>> number) of
>> all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
>> russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
>> post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
>> environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.
>
> This matches everything I have seen about Russia. It simply is 
> implausible that "corruption and inefficiency means more opportunities 
> for economies behind their backs" (to summarize the argument).
>
> What Russia shows is that privatizing a state-run economy is difficult 
> indeed. Gazprom, the big gas and energy company, is a case in point. 
> There was no "free market" to acquire the resources of this 
> "privatized" company: the thugs and apparatchniks (sp?) grabbed the 
> company. And they are willing to use former KGB, GRU, and Spetsnaz 
> killers to enforce their monopoly.
>
> What about non-heavy industry? Television, for example? Read about the 
> ongoing shutdown of Moscow independent stations and networks, on flimsy 
> grounds having the _language_ of capitalism (stuff about "loan 
> default") but actually being just part of the thugocracy approach. (The 
> U.S. is not blameless here. Our own FCC applies similar rules sometimes 
> to block stations. And woe unto any Islamic broadcaster, where the new 
> language is that the First Amendment does not apply to "hate speech" or 
> "speech insulting to other religions." At this rate, the long-awaited 
> convergence of Russia and America is not far off.)
>
> Russia as a haven for Havenco? For digital money? For e-commerce?
>
> Laughable.
>
> --Tim May
>>
> --Tim May
> "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third 
> hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're 
> around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet
>
>
--Tim May
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Dec  5 08:29:08 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:29:08 -0800
Subject: ssz switchover test
In-Reply-To: ;
  from measl@mfn.org on Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:44:54AM -0600
References: 
Message-ID: <20011205082908.A16874@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:44:54AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> testing lne: ssz appears down hard :-(

Mail to ssz has been backed up at lne since midnight tuesday.

The list of CDRs is at: http://www.lne.com/cpunk/


Eric




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Dec  5 08:36:33 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:36:33 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Reputation capital
In-Reply-To: <392A28D4-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:07:47AM -0800
References: <392A28D4-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011205083633.B16874@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:07:47AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> [Retransmission. Due to periodic problems with lne.com, I started 
> sending my messages to ssz.com a few days ago. Alas, ssz.com has had an 
> outage. Hence these retransmissions. Sorry for any dupes.]


The problems lne was having have been fixed.  My MX host had an extra '.'
in their MailerHosts table, so mail to anything at lne.com that got MXd
to them was being rejected with 'User unknown'.

Eric




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec  4 13:41:41 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 08:41:41 +1100
Subject: Comrades.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205083914.00a25130@pop.useoz.com>


Comrades who may have any experience with this or constructive suggestions,
thoughts or advise, please feel free to contact us direct or respond on
this list and we will forward.

Thanks and solidarity,
NY-NJ Workers Solidarity Alliance
wsany at hotmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Surveillance Camera Players: My name is Fred B., I am the
President of a Local Union of the American Flint Glass Workers
Union We are in the formidable stages of  a grievance process which is
likely to end at an arbitration hearing, concerning our company installing
Surveillance Equipment.

Is there anything you could do or recommend for us that would
be a show of not only Disgust but also Defiance?

Yours' In Solidarity
Fred
Im not smart so Ill handball it to youse.mattd.Help please,thank you.




From unamaxwell at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  5 00:45:44 2001
From: unamaxwell at hotmail.com (unamaxwell at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:45:44 +0000
Subject: How To Greatly Increase Your Calling Area ...                                    [ajgrz]
Message-ID: 

http://pavilion/pgm/adcopy/booster.html
Increase your cell phone
reception for just $14.99
Click Here

We will increase your reception dramatically or your money back!
Enhance your cell phone, pager, or two way radio's signal for better reception in large
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static, missed calls, dropped calls, etc. This easy-to-install internal antenna is like
adding 4 feet worth of antenna to your phone! this signal booster will:

reduce static
provide clarity
stabilize reception
work on any phone
work on any system

Easy to Install
Just slip in behind battery!

Get a FREE anti-radiation shield!

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30
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Address Removal Instructions
This advertisement provides all recipients
with a no-cost method to permanently remove thier e-mail address from future mailings. To
permanently remove your address 
click here to send your request.


-------------- next part --------------
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From "Powerful Cell Phone Accessory" at toad.com  Wed Dec  5 01:12:18 2001
From: "Powerful Cell Phone Accessory" at toad.com ("Powerful Cell Phone Accessory" at toad.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:12:18 +0000
Subject: How To Greatly Increase Your Calling Area ...                                    [otrgg]
Message-ID: 

http://pavilion/pgm/adcopy/booster.html
Increase your cell phone
reception for just $14.99
Click Here

We will increase your reception dramatically or your money back!
Enhance your cell phone, pager, or two way radio's signal for better reception in large
buildings, tunnels, elevators, and many other places where the signal may get weak causing
static, missed calls, dropped calls, etc. This easy-to-install internal antenna is like
adding 4 feet worth of antenna to your phone! this signal booster will:

reduce static
provide clarity
stabilize reception
work on any phone
work on any system

Easy to Install
Just slip in behind battery!

Get a FREE anti-radiation shield!

Click Here

30
Day Money Back Guarantee!

Address Removal Instructions
This advertisement provides all recipients
with a no-cost method to permanently remove thier e-mail address from future mailings. To
permanently remove your address 
click here to send your request.




**********************************************************************
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intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

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From footwear at kingfootwear.com  Tue Dec  4 17:58:37 2001
From: footwear at kingfootwear.com (footwear)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:58:37 +0800
Subject: footwear
Message-ID: <10fd01c17d39$db10be40$f733fea9@qz.fj.cn>

Dear Sirs,

We learned from internet that you would like to import footwear products. We can supply you all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We are a shoe factory in CHINA and we manufacture all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We welcome you visit our web site http://www.kingfootwear.com for pictures of our products. 
 
And if interested in any models, please let us know the article numbers and the quantity that you will order and we will offer you a most competitive price accordingly. 

Best Regards

Ruth Lin

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From footwear at kingfootwear.com  Tue Dec  4 17:59:08 2001
From: footwear at kingfootwear.com (footwear)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:59:08 +0800
Subject: footwear
Message-ID: <110601c17d39$dbfa33e0$f733fea9@qz.fj.cn>

Dear Sirs,

We learned from internet that you would like to import footwear products. We can supply you all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We are a shoe factory in CHINA and we manufacture all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We welcome you visit our web site http://www.kingfootwear.com for pictures of our products. 
 
And if interested in any models, please let us know the article numbers and the quantity that you will order and we will offer you a most competitive price accordingly. 

Best Regards

Ruth Lin

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From footwear at kingfootwear.com  Tue Dec  4 17:59:30 2001
From: footwear at kingfootwear.com (footwear)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:59:30 +0800
Subject: footwear
Message-ID: <110801c17d39$dc78d9c0$f733fea9@qz.fj.cn>

Dear Sirs,

We learned from internet that you would like to import footwear products. We can supply you all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We are a shoe factory in CHINA and we manufacture all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We welcome you visit our web site http://www.kingfootwear.com for pictures of our products. 
 
And if interested in any models, please let us know the article numbers and the quantity that you will order and we will offer you a most competitive price accordingly. 

Best Regards

Ruth Lin

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From alqaeda at hq.org  Wed Dec  5 10:02:23 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 10:02:23 -0800
Subject: Bad Opsec: Afghan hills, atavan for geologists
Message-ID: <3C0E612F.A66B0369@hq.org>


excerpts from
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-120501shroder.story
about the importance of operational security

Later CNN gave Shroder an enhanced copy of the complete tape. It
 revealed that the camera operator did not turn off the camera while he
 removed it from the tripod. As he tilted the camera up, the outline of
 the top of the ravine was caught on two frames.

Armed with this new information, Shroder was able to place Bin Laden
in a province in the south.

.......
"They told me, 'You guys have made yourselves a little too vulnerable,'
" he said. Now, the nondescript room Shroder and his team use to
assemble and analyze maps of Afghanistan has been secured: digital
locks and 24-hour audio and video surveillance. "I'm now a worldwide
target."




From yourdailydeal at lists.em5000.com  Wed Dec  5 10:24:42 2001
From: yourdailydeal at lists.em5000.com (yourdailydeal)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:24:42 PST
Subject: Someone wants to share the Holidays!
Message-ID: <5120100011$100688083616512$10$0@exploder5.em5000.com>

Share this Season with someone new!
Just 3 easy steps to meeting and dating that person you have always dreamed of.
Take your new Soulmate on a virtual date to exotic locations and share the holiday fun.
http://www.neodates.com/tracker.php?Refer=elist161616&Id=110 Click here to go to NeoDates.com and join the fun!
-- 

To unsubscribe go to 
http://www.em5000.com/unsub.php?client=yourdailydeal&email=cypherpunks at toad.com&listname=yourdailydeal&msgid=5120100011
or to 
http://www.em5000.com/unsub.php?client=yourdailydeal&listname=yourdailydeal&msgid=5120100011
and enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) 


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From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Wed Dec  5 08:11:05 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:11:05 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB50000014DC@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec  4 16:25:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:25:25 +1100
Subject: Say goodbye to joshua
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205111618.009f36c0@pop.useoz.com>


Agent gordon,how olds your boy now? He will be a teenager one day and may 
call out his old man ala arbusto and herb.
It might be for something petty but it might also be because his dad locked 
up a guy for 10 years instead of getting an AVO (restraining order) on him.
He may also be a perfect son.(Like charles texas tower.)Id like to write to 
him with your permission.I have something to show him about you.




From alqaeda at hq.org  Wed Dec  5 11:33:17 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:33:17 -0800
Subject: Feds try to get Magic Lantern installation automated
Message-ID: <3C0E767D.28A21092@hq.org>


"US Government advisor Richard Clarke says software companies
should distribute patches that automatically update customers'
computers."

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_466189.html?menu=


Experts reject call for automated virus protection

Anti-virus experts have rejected a US government call for
automated software patches to combat computer viruses.

Sophos says calls for software vendors to do more are out of touch
with typical users' requirements.

They point out that many customers would reject anything that
undermines their sovereignty over their computer systems.

US Government advisor Richard Clarke says software companies
should distribute patches that automatically update customers'
computers.

                                       But Sophos says the idea betrays
a lack of understanding of how
                                       anti-virus software already
operates.

                                       "Most anti-virus vendors give
their customers the option of
                                       automating updates, but some
businesses are reticent about
                                       outsourcing crucial security
measures," explained senior technology
                                       consultant Graham Cluley.

                                       "For peace of mind they'd rather
implement their own updates to
                                       ensure they work properly for
their environment."

                                       Mr Clarke's comments came amidst
a fresh virus outbreak. Goner is
                                       an email-disseminating worm that
purports to be a screensaver.

                                       Story filed: 17:35 Wednesday 5th
December 2001




From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn  Tue Dec  4 19:58:51 2001
From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:58:51 +0800
Subject: Locks and Sewing machines
Message-ID: <200112050351.TAA26204@ecotone.toad.com>


Dear sirs/madams,
We are a manufacturer specializing in all kinds of padlocks in China. Now, we can supply iron padlock and brass padlock in good quality and competitive price. Our products are exported into Middle East , South America, South-east Asia ,Europe and Africa. And they are warmly welcome in these regions. We can also manufacture the products according to the brand name the buyers request. We introduce ourselves and hope that you will be interested in our products. If so, your inquiries are welcome and we will try our best to satisfy you.
Meanwhile, we can also supply sewing machine including JA series, GN series, FN series and JH series.
Please visit our website:  http://www.china-padlock.com/
Contact: zhu jian jin
Tel:0086-578-3158898
Fax:0086-578-3157775
E-mail:mailto:jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn
If the information interrupt you, we feel sorry for it and please delete it. Thank you.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec  4 17:13:16 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:13:16 +1100
Subject: Home page redirection
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205121219.00a4dc20@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: RE: [2600-AU] hackers love google (apparently)

 > Yep, they even have their own customised version..
 >
 > http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec  5 04:52:53 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:52:53 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Ellison donates software for U.S. security
Message-ID: 



who'd thunk

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8070437.html

Ellison donates software for U.S. security
By Wylie Wong
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
December 4, 2001, 8:20 p.m. PT
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8070437.html?tag=prntfr

Oracle Chief Executive Larry Ellison said Tuesday that he has donated
Oracle software to the U.S. government to create a database for national
security.

After the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Ellison has championed the need for
the United States to create a national standard for identification cards.
During his keynote speech at Oracle's OpenWorld customer conference in San
Francisco, Ellison said he has delivered Oracle's 9i database management
software to a U.S. government agency for national security, but he
declined to give further details, such as which agency or for what usage.

"We don't run those law enforcement agencies. We just provide them
software," he said during a news conference.

Ellison had earlier offered to donate its database software, but charge
for maintenance and upgrades as part of his goal of creating a national ID
standard.

Ellison has suggested airport security would be improved by requiring
travelers to provide their names and social security numbers to airport
security personnel. Security personnel could then compared the travelers'
thumbprints with those stored in a national security database to ensure
accurate identification.

When Oracle started up nearly 25 years ago, it built databases for the
Central Intelligence Agency. Database management software allows
businesses, Web sites and government agencies to store and manage vast
amounts of information. For example, Ellison said, the Immigration and
Naturalization Service has more than 80,000 handprints of travelers and
foreigners with visas to enter the country. He said national security data
is currently housed in multiple databases when it should be grouped
together in one central repository.

"There is cooperation (among government agencies)," he said. "But there's
a lot of data fragmentation."

During his news conference, Ellison added that a national standard for
identification cards is important for national security reasons. "Our
existing ID's should not be easily forged," he said. "Credit cards are
based on a set of standards, why doesn't the government?"




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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:58:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Search engine placement GUARANTEED RESULTS IN WRITING!!!!!  10% off
Message-ID: <200112052158.NAA11782@toad.com>


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From alqaeda at hq.org  Wed Dec  5 14:14:06 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:14:06 -0800
Subject: guns, encryption, ID, biometrics, document authentication,
  unswipable CA  drivers licenses
Message-ID: <3C0E9C2E.CC2B72C5@senate.gov>


Learned the following today: starting soon --Jan 2002 IIRC-- you can't
use an unswipable drivers license to buy a gun in CA.  When asked, the
 employee said there was encrypted info on them
that was harder to forge than the holograph-laminated front.

When I said that the licenses could be read with a regular cardreader
and that info could be forged, he suggested it was the newer license
(with two pictures vs 1 and an optical bar code too).  He suggested that

the "encrypted info" was harder to forge than the laminated front.

This would be possible if the front info was securely hashed with a
secret key.

Anyone have more info?  Good citizens are curious if they did this
right, and
what all the bits on the strip mean.



So monkeywrenching the magstrip will impair your constitutional rights.

A replacement license is $12; perhaps a good citizen needs a spare.

In any case Govn'or Slime Davis signed a law requiring fingerprints in a
year or two.

I bet they'll be taking hair samples or cheek scrapings in five years.




From alq at bora.org  Wed Dec  5 14:31:09 2001
From: alq at bora.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:31:09 -0800
Subject: A note to virus authors
Message-ID: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>


>>"The subject line says 'Hi' and will be from someone you know,"
Symantec security response group manager Kevin Haley said. "The
text will say 'How are you? I saw this screensaver and immediately
thought of you.' That's a giveaway."<<

Authors, How can you put so much effort into writing cool virii
and do such an amateur job on the social engineering?

Include a hundred different, likely sounding subject lines (encrypted
of course, but you knew that).   A single constant subject line is *so*
easy to warn
against.  You are defeated by word of mouth and a little medium-term
memory.
Exceed the human memory requirements, gentlemen.   You'll have a better
chance of a truly inspiring piece of electronic performance art.

-------
"Forget cyberterrorists (tm) in distant lands; a few daisycutters on
Redmond and your virus problems disappear."




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec  5 11:53:07 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:53:07 -0500 (est)
Subject: A little quiet in here....
In-Reply-To: <200112052143.fB5Lhjm18964@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 


Well, I did get your particular message.  After scumscribing to lne.com, I
got 3-4 messages, and nothing more...  I guess it's time to read from "the
archives" -- if they've caught any traffic at all.

Someone mentioned lne had a bad dns entry for an mx record (an extra .)
Choate mentioned he was going to switch ssz to some other T1's or
something...  (I generally don't pay attention to Choate when he's not
posting hillariously illogical Choatian-Prime posts.)

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:

> Hmmm.... no CDR traffic for about two days..... Toad is dead, 
> einstein.ssz.com seems off the 'Net completely, and lne.com is 
> deserted.
> 
> Conspiracy theorists, start your keyboards :)
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
> Visit http://www.FastCircle.com




From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com  Wed Dec  5 15:14:03 2001
From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:14:03 PST
Subject: Is The Bull Stampede On?
Message-ID: <200112052322.XAA01230@s0208.pm0.net>


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From nachwelt at web.de  Wed Dec  5 07:03:01 2001
From: nachwelt at web.de (Olav Stetter)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:03:01 +0100
Subject: Imagine Bob owns an ISP...
Message-ID: <01120516030100.00921@elevator>


Hello everyone!
I thought the following question might be of interest: Imagine Bob owns an 
ISP. Bob doesn't like government agencies very much and has (yet) no 
surveillence equipment installed. Alice now makes a contract with Bob that he 
provides internet access to Alice and she pays for it. If Bob is forced to 
install Carnivore-like equipment or anything of the like, he promises to tell 
Alice immediately. If he doesn't and Alice finds out, he has to pay [insert 
very large sum here] $ to Alice.

Now what happens when Bob is legally (or otherwise) forced to make his 
network a "patriotic" one and isn't allowed to tell Alice?
(as it is proposed in this "Convention on Cyber-Crime" by the European Union; 
at least that is my reading, which may very well be wrong; but in fact it is 
of no relevance here)

Thanks,
Olav Stetter


-- 
Noch sind sie gleich bereit, zu weinen und zu lachen,
Sie ehren noch den Schwung, erfreuen sich am Schein;
Wer fertig ist, dem ist nichts rechts zu machen;
Ein Werdender wird immer dankbar sein.
--  Faust I, J. W. v. Goethe




From getnoticed at getfriction.org  Wed Dec  5 14:08:08 2001
From: getnoticed at getfriction.org (get some)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:08:08 -0600
Subject: get in the action
Message-ID: <200112052207.OAA12985@toad.com>


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From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Wed Dec  5 13:46:19 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:46:19 -0500
Subject: A little quiet in here....
Message-ID: <200112052143.fB5Lhjm18964@slack.lne.com>


Hmmm.... no CDR traffic for about two days..... Toad is dead, 
einstein.ssz.com seems off the 'Net completely, and lne.com is 
deserted.

Conspiracy theorists, start your keyboards :)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
Visit http://www.FastCircle.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Dec  5 14:52:49 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:52:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: We're back...
Message-ID: 



Hi,

Well after a couple of days down time we're back.

Seems my providers machine room got a tad wet from somebody dumping a water 
main into it (perhaps somebody wanted to go swimming?). Seems it's gonna
run in the $5M range for repairs and such after they're all done.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From polandjm at hhs4.hhs.csus.edu  Wed Dec  5 17:00:04 2001
From: polandjm at hhs4.hhs.csus.edu (Jim M. Poland)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:00:04 -0800 
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 






From fygrave at tigerteam.net  Wed Dec  5 02:39:56 2001
From: fygrave at tigerteam.net (Fyodor)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:39:56 +0700
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
In-Reply-To: <0efd01c17cdb$20af83a0$5300a8c0@marcel>; from
  mdpopescu@yahoo.com on Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 05:48:33PM +0200
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
  <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>
  <20011204191450.G29550@tigerteam.net>
  <0efd01c17cdb$20af83a0$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: <20011205173956.X29550@tigerteam.net>


> > corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
> > of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) of
> > all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
> > russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
> > post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
> > environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.
> 
> I understand that, but I thought having *incompetent* corrupt people is
> better than having *competent* ones! Who said "let's be happy that we don't

The difference is: those people are incompetent in performing the roles
which they were elected for (i.g. being governors of country's wealth,
building laws and rules in the country to assist economy development and
such), but those people are very *competent* in ripping the other people
off. That is the primary reason why they went for the game to be elected
in government and that's the primary reason why they got power to do so.


> have all the government that we're paying for" (or something like that)? The
> flaw here is the idea that the government COULD be a good thing, provided
> that the governors are competent. I disagree with that.

Indeed. "Don't give power to those who desire it. Those who do, desire
it for their own profits".

> > not all are vodka drinking idiots. but your statement makes sense. :-)
> 
> I'm not saying that all russians are such. (Not that I love them, being from
> an ex-satellite...) Only that a significant number are (just like a

What is ex-satellite? ;-)

> significant number of Americans are "couch potatoes"), and having to share
> my earnings with them is a big disincentive.
> 

I doubt that a significant number is either. There could be certain
percentage that is higher than in other countries, which might be the
reason of such image of a nation to exist.

> 
> Yep. As Ian Clarke (the initiator of Freenet) said, Americans look at the
> big mansion on the hill and say "one day I'll have one of those", while
> Irish (or Romanians, or Russians...) say "one day we'll burn that
> sonofabitch".

:-) 

> 
> That's what I was objecting to :) The solution is obvious: capitalism. The
> real one, not the fascist version.

Well, hard to say which 'real version' of capitalism is good. I would
strongly vote against american model for sure, which turns people and
people's relationships into mostly money-based relations. IMHO
relationships in eastern europe and asia are more human and less money
dependent than in US pretty much because of such reason.

> > Union? Which Union? I doubt russia is welcomed to European Union (update
> > me if I am wrong) and there's no former Soviet Union either. More over
> > the Union of Idependent Countries, seems to be getting gone piece by
> > piece, at least now you need to proper visa if you want to visit Russia
> > from one of the 'former' republics.
> 
> Really? I didn't know that. Anyway, being old people and so on, I am sure
> they are nostalgic about the One Big Union.

It was a good thing (tm). That's what european union is coming too.
Easier econimics relationship between parts of the union. Easier
traveling. Centralised model of control of such union is a bit flawed
though, but definetely is better than heaps of small countries with its
own barriers.

> Well, at least there's two of us 

:-p

-- 
http://www.notlsd.net
PGP fingerprint = 56DD 1511 DDDA 56D7 99C7  B288 5CE5 A713 0969 A4D1




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From rfiero at pophost.com  Wed Dec  5 17:49:51 2001
From: rfiero at pophost.com (Richard Fiero)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:49:51 -0800
Subject: in praise of gold 
In-Reply-To: <20011204081720.91562.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200112040425.XAA07055@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011205174801.00a024d0@pop.pophost.com>


My point is not to comment on coins, gold or gold digging, but 
to note that these topics are tied together in the archaic mind 
of which there is abundance on this list.
In his review of COINS, BODIES, GAMES, AND GOLD (Leslie Kurke, 
Princeton University Press, 1999), L. Randall Wray makes the 
following points in the March 2001 edition of THE JOURNAL OF ECONOMIC ISSUES.
" . . . it has long been established that the first coins were 
issued in Lydia and East Greece, probably no earlier than the 
third or fourth quarter of the seventh century BC.  The dating 
is puzzling, because we also know that money, local markets, 
long-distance trade, and even complex financial instruments 
existed for thousands of years before coins were invented.  If 
precious metal coins were indeed invented to reduce transaction 
costs, one wonders why it took so long for sophisticated 
traders to discover them.
" . . . As Karl Polany warned long ago, the Greek economy was 
'embedded' in other noneconomic institutions, 'the economic 
process itself being instituted through kinship, marriage, 
age-groups, secret societies, totemic associations, and public solemnities.'
" . . . She [Leslie Kurke] begins by quoting an intriguing 
passage form Herodotus:
'The Lydians use customs very similar to those of the Greeks, 
apart from the fact that they prostitute their female 
children.  And first of men whom we know, they struck and used 
currency of gold and silver, and they were also the first 
retail traders.  And the Lydians themselves claim that also the 
games that now exist for them and for the Greeks were their invention.'
"Note how Herodotus juxtaposes prostitution, coinage, retail 
trade, and games--all (inaccurately) attributed to the Lydians, 
who are otherwise supposed to be much like the Greeks. As Kurke 
wonders, 'Why do all these phenomena form a natural class . . .'
" . . . while prostitution, games, and retail trade are 
frequently discussed and linked in the [period] literature, 
coinage is virtually never discussed (at least in a positive 
sense; almost all references are to counterfeiting).  Quite the 
contrary, Kurke insists . . . for concern with what the texts 
_don't_ say. She also notes that the greatest Greek democracy, 
Athens, produced not a single text supportive of 
democracy--rather, all contemporaneous discussion of Athenian 
political theory was written by a hostile elite.
" . . . In her view, 'the minting of coin would represent the 
state's assertion of its ultimate authority to constitute and 
regulate value in all spheres in which general-purpose money 
operated simultaneously--economic, social, political, and 
religious.  Thus, state-issued coinage as a universal 
equivalent, like the civic _agora_ in which it circulated, 
symbolized the merger in a single token or site of many 
different domains of value, all under the final authority of the city.'
"In a sense, the choice of precious metals for coinage was a 
historical accident, a pointed challenge to the elite monopoly 
over precious metal.  By coining precious metal, the _polis_ 
appropriated the highest sphere of gift exchange, and with its 
stamp it asserted its ultimate authority--both inwardly (or 
domestically) but also outward (in long-distance trade): 'For 
every Greek _polis_ that issued its own coin asserted its 
autonomy and independence from every other Greek city, while 
coinage also functions as one institution
among many through which constituted itself as the final 
instance against the claims of an internal elite.'  As the 
_polis_ used coins for its own payments and insisted on payment 
in coin, it inserted its sovereignty into retail trade in the 
_agora_.  Mainstream economists frequently assert that growth 
of the local market was associated with expansion of democracy, 
but Kurke stands the typical Austrian argument on its head by 
noting the critical role played by the _polis_ in wresting 
control away from the elite.
" . . . introduction of coins arose out of a 'seventh/sixth 
century crisis of justice and unfair distribution of 
property.'  Coins appeared at this particular time because the 
_polis_ had gained sufficient strength to rival the _symposia_, 
-hetaireiari_ (private drinking clubs), and other institutions 
and _xenia_ (elite networking) that maintained elite 
dominance.  At the same time, the _agora_ and its use of coined 
money subverted hierarchies of gift exchange, just as a shift 
to taxes and regular payments to city officials (as well as 
severe penalties levied on officials who accepted gifts) 
challenged the 'natural' order that relied on gifts and 
favors.  It is no coincidence that elite literary works 
disparaged the _agora_ as a place for deceit and that coinage 
was always noted for its 'counterfeit' quality.
" . . . Obviously the elite reacted to such developments, 
although in a veiled manner.  When money is discussed in the 
texts, its introduction is invariably attributed to tyrants who 
destroy the _nomos_, the community, and the divine order.  It 
is also interesting that the elite usually attributes invention 
of money to the requirements of scorned retail trade--just as 
modern economics does, albeit without scorn--rather than to the 
struggle to assert sovereignty of the _polis_.  As Kurke 
argues, this 'mystification' of the origins of money is 
ideological--as it remains today--a purposeful rejection of the 
legitimacy of democratic government.
"A major portion of the book is devoted to elite 
representations of games and 'bodies' (prostitution, 
objectification of women, and artistic depiction of the female 
form).  Recall from the quote above that Herodotus linked 
Lydian creation of coinage to invention of games and 
prostitution of female children.  Kurke notes that the whole 
array of Greek games emerged at the same time as coins and 
wonders how games form a natural class with coins in literary 
texts--with games of chance ridiculed while games of order were 
held to be appropriate.  She argues that games of chance served 
as a shorthand for all the vices of a disembedded economy: the 
acquisition of small profits by shameful means and creation of 
random fortunes as opposed to the 'natural' fortuned gained 
through aristocratic birth.
"Just as two classes of games were created, two classes of 
prostitute were invented at the time of coinage. . . . it 
becomes necessary for the elite to distinguish their 
prostitutes from those used by the citizens.  Thus, the 
_hetariai_ (courtesans) who frequented the _symposia_ to 
exchange their services for 'gifts' were distinguished from the 
_pornai_ (whores) who serviced citizens for coins. Kurke notes 
that the _polis_ created cheap public brothels for use by the 
citizens because 'to be a citizen means always having a place 
to put your penis.'"




From frissell at panix.com  Wed Dec  5 15:10:52 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:10:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> By the way, a topic I talked about a month or two ago, the bogus nature
> of the _Economics_ prize, has been in the news. Some of the descendants
> of the Nobel family want the Economics prize to have no connection to
> the name "Nobel."
>
> Their claim is that Alfred Nobel didn't create or fund the prize, so why
> is it called "Nobel"?
>
> I think the subtext is that the Econ prize is trivializing the other
> prizes.

It's actually called the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics".


And even though "Moral Philosophy" is not a science, it is a bit easier to
award reasonable prizes in than Literature and Peace.  "Toni Morrison call
your agent."

DCF
----
"War was created so that men in primative societies would have a valid
excuse for deserting the wife and kids."









From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Dec  5 18:42:49 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:42:49 -0800
Subject: will the real capitalism please stand up
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206135241.00a2bd90@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011205184249.00816490@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:58 PM 12/6/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>Objectivism the real thing? How do you separate  fascism  from capitalism? 

Coercion.




From mv at cdc.gov  Wed Dec  5 18:48:17 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:48:17 -0800
Subject: Ellison holds Liberty down as Rumsfeld does her
Message-ID: <3C0EDC71.9196F91@cdc.gov>


At 01:52 PM 12/5/01 +0100, Eugene Leitl wrote:
>who'd thunk
>
>http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8070437.html
>
>Ellison donates software for U.S. security

Oracle OpenWorld 2001
Moscone Center
San Francisco, California
December 2-7, 2001


SAFETY AND SECURITY POLICIES

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU READ AND FOLLOW THESE PROCEDURES

In the wake of the September 11 events, Oracle Corporation is taking
additional
safety measures for OpenWorld. We are working to make these changes with

minimal impact on our attendees, but would ask for your cooperation to
ensure that  appropriate safety measures are taken for our event.

This year expect to see more security. Uniformed police officers will be
on
duty at Moscone Convention Center and extra Security Officers will be
roving all
Conference sites and the exhibit hall floor. However, there is a new
security
policy being instituted for OpenWorld that you need to be aware of:

While on-site, you should carry a photo ID (driver's license or
passport) at
all times.




From mail at poweropt.com  Wed Dec  5 16:04:55 2001
From: mail at poweropt.com (PowerOptionsPlus)
Date: 5 Dec 2001 19:04:55 -0500
Subject: PriceWatch Alert!  TTWO - AOL - EBAY - QQQ - - DELL
Message-ID: 

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From stsls at hanmail.net  Wed Dec  5 02:17:32 2001
From: stsls at hanmail.net (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?vcXFwrz2?=)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:17:32 +0900
Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIMPWvcW/tcittbUguriw7SC/tb7utbUguei/7LDtLi4u?=
Message-ID: <200112051015.fB5AFPJ17430@mail.kornet.net>

MBC 무빙 잉글리쉬 																																		 		 				 		    안녕하세요?
 MBC무비잉글리쉬입니다. 
 MBC무비잉글리쉬는 세계적인 기업 월트 디즈니사와 제휴로멀티미디어 통합기술을 이용한
 최첨단디지털 교재로 데이터압축방식인 M-PEG를 구현하여 만들었습니다.
 여기에는 캡션 기능이 첨가되어(영문자막, 한글자막, 무자막)선택과 DICTAION 기능이 첨가
 되어 즉석에서 듣기능력 평가를할 수 있도록 기획되었습니다.
 MBC 아카데미 무비잉글리쉬는 올바른 영어교육의 방향 제시를통하여 학회나 학교, SK나
 한국통신등에서 효율적인 학습체계로손쉽고 재미있게 실질적인 영어실력을 키울 수 있으므로, 전국의많은 기업에서 활용을 하고  있습니다.     현재 고개님들의 학습에 도움이 되고자, 무료 샘플 CD를 배포하고
 있아오니 관심 있으신 분은 아래의 배너를 클릭하여 주시기 바랍니다. 감사합니다. 
	 본 메일이 불필요하시다면 간단히 제목을 "수신거부"로 하여 webmaster at imovieenglish.com로 수신거부메일을 보내주십시요.
      		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 	   
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From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  5 09:45:33 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:45:33 +0200
Subject: Reputation capital
References: <392A28D4-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <25cc01c17db4$a3b5a3e0$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "Tim May" 

> I think all this stuff about reputations is being solved pretty neatly by
> the credit bureaus... up to getting scalars on people / companies.

> This is naive. Credit bureaus handle only a particular class of
> reputations, certain types of credit-worthiness, and then with
> well-documented deep flaws:

Ok, I agree I was too happy to have found something connected to this :)
Let's say there APPEARS to be a solution, at least to a class of problems -
trade reputations - and the credit bureaus MIGHT BE a good start in that
direction. (And apparently a good second step would be the removal of the
flaws you mention.)

Also, regarding the flaws: something like this would be a HUGE improvement
over the current situation in many countries (mine included).

Mark




From FREE.AUCTION.SITE at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec  5 18:25:52 2001
From: FREE.AUCTION.SITE at einstein.ssz.com (FREE.AUCTION.SITE at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:25:52 -0600
Subject: 
Message-ID: <200112060231.UAA31552@einstein.ssz.com>

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From newsletter at megasexoffers.com  Thu Dec  6 00:11:32 2001
From: newsletter at megasexoffers.com (MegaSexOffers)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:11:32 -0800
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Dec  6 01:53:40 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 01:53:40 -0800
Subject: ANNOUNCE: SF Cypherpunks, Saturday, 12/8, U.C.SANTA CRUZ,
  College VIII Room 240, 12:30-5:30
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011206014509.03847050@idiom.com>


SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting, 8 December 01, U.C.Santa Cruz, College 
VIII Room 240, 12:30-5:30

We're meeting Way Down South in the land of Boletus edulus mushrooms
and Monarch Butterflies*, which are both in season, and Banana Slugs.
It's an open public meeting on US soil, everyone's invited,
and it's another month where the Second Saturday showed up early,
so it's this Saturday.

* Eric Blossom will be giving a talk and demo on Software Defined Radios. *

An anonymous cypherpunk may allegedly be discussing development status
of unnamed anonymity products or more reasons for anonymity.

Several less anonymous cypherpunks will be discussing
tools to build, or rebuild, or build differently -
what lessons have we learned from PGP for the next product?
What's a practical toolset for a human rights organization?

Now that the list has been Officially Declared Dead (stego-mpegs at 11:00),
harassed by flooded machine rooms and mailing list glitches,
we've been taunted by some science-fiction authors,
finally probably been published by others, and been dissed by several
Intellectual Property judges, and informed that civil liberties
and due process are pre-millenial relics, we've got some slack
to re-evaluate the cypherpunks movement.  What technologies
should we be looking at?  What needs building next?
What succeeded?  What failed?  What synergies do we need to exploit?

We'll also be discussing schedules for February's meeting,
since The RSA Tradeshow will be the 18th-22nd in San Jose.
If you're an out-of-towner expecting to be here for the show,
please send some mail if you know if you'll be around the
weekend before (Presidents Day) or after the show.

======= Directions and Transportation ======
Kristen Tsolis has reserved a room for Saturday, 12/8 from 12:30~5:30.
UCSC College VIII Room 240.

While UCSC is a mere 30 minutes from Silicon Valley,
it's tough to get to from SF without a car,
so Bill Stewart will be meeting several Usual Suspects at
Mountain View Caltrain at 12:13pm (train leaves SF at 11:00.)
Look for the burgundy-colored Chevy van, or for Bill :-)
The Caltrain schedule ( http://www.caltrain.com/caltrain/index.html )
Drop email to bill.stewart at pobox.com if you want to be waited for.

UCSC can be a maze to the uninitiated, so you will want to print this map.
The meeting space at UCSC is clearly marked:

http://www.shmoo.com/~ktsolis/ucscmap.gif

here are some more maps:

http://www.ucsc.edu/general_info/maps.html

To get to UCSC, take US 280 or CA 101 to US 880 or CA 17 south. Take CA 17
south to Santa Cruz, then CA 1 north to Bay St. Turn right on Bay which will
take you to the base of campus. One can also come south from San Francisco
on CA 1 to Bay.

At the base of campus, take a left onto Empire Grade, which will take you to
the West Entrance. Take that right onto Heller, and then take a right on
Koshland into the College Eight Lower Parking Lot. There's no need to pay
for parking on weekends, and as long as you don't park in a 24 hour space,
you won't get a ticket. If you need assistance with handicapped parking,
please email kristen at pobox.com.

Walk up the stairways between the College Eight dorms until you reach the
top flight of stairs. When you are facing the top parking lot, turn right
towards Room 240.

The cafe there will be closed for Christmas Break, so bring your coffee and
victuals with you.

*Natural Bridges State Park: http://www.aa6g.org/Butterflies/monarch.html

Bill Stewart's Cellphone is +1-415-307-7119, if you're lost and he's not.
*********




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Dec  6 02:04:45 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 02:04:45 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011206020259.0384c2b0@idiom.com>

 From Claudia Schmeing 's summary:
  
=========

1.  Release 1.93 ships!
     ===================
     1 post Dec 3
     http://lists.freeswan.org/pipermail/users/2001-December/005632.html

A number of small improvements have been added to this release, which was
shipped on-time.

Some highlights:

* Diffie-Hellman group 5 is now the first group proposed.
* Two cases where fragmentation is needed will be handled better, thanks
   to these two changes

        The code that decides whether to send an ICMP complaint back about
        a packet which had to be fragmented, but couldn't be, has gotten
        smart enough that we now feel comfortable enabling it by default.
   and

        IKE (UDP/500) packets which were large enough to be fragmented used
        to be mishandled, with some of the fragments failing to bypass IPsec
        tunnels properly.  This has been fixed; our thanks to Hans Schultz.

* If Pluto gets more than one RSA key from DNS, it will now try each key.
   This will help when a system administrator replaces a key.
* There is preliminary support for building RPMs.
* SMP support is better.
* The team has eliminated a vulnerability that might permit a denial of 
service
   attack.

What can we expect from the next release? Henry Spencer writes:

     We are in the process of chasing down a couple of significant bugs (which
     have been there since at least 1.92 and possibly earlier), and we *might*
     ship another release quite shortly if we nail them down and fix them.  If
     we don't, we won't.  Barring that possibility, the next release is planned
     for the end of January; a more precise date will be announced shortly.






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From greetings at reply.yahoo.com  Wed Dec  5 23:19:30 2001
From: greetings at reply.yahoo.com (greetings at reply.yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 02:19:30 -0500
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
Message-ID: <200112060719.XAA00592@toad.com>


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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 09:50:39 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 04:50:39 +1100
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206044345.00a24eb0@pop.useoz.com>


"Without property rights in the means of production to separate one man's 
plan from another man's plan, there can only be one plan, one plan for 
everything, one plan for everyone, one plan that all must obey."

Libertarianism? Its the one plan here that all must obey.The ubergeeks one 
true religon.Yet you seek to rip off the hard earned kudos of 'anarchy' and 
'punk'.You stand exposed as the fraud you are james by your own straw man 
argument.
Will you denounce the march for capitalism for its rank socialist 
organising and marching?




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 09:58:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 04:58:59 +1100
Subject: fuel injected firearm, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206045316.00a29070@pop.useoz.com>


One of the improvised weapons of choice these days is LPG bombs and
mortars.Im not an urbane guerrilla(yet) but does anyone want to condense
something out of this?

PDF] Code of Practice on the Use of LPG for the Production of ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... 4.3.4 All LPG mortars shall be clearly marked ... known as black powder
bombs. Liquefied
petroleum gas ( ) , as ... to in paragraph (a). LPG ( ) , an abbreviation
for ...
www.info.gov.hk/tela/forms/form-q.pdf - Similar pages
[PDF] Code of Practice on the Use, Storage and Conveyance of ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... the Code of Practice on the Use of LPG for the Production of Special
Effects (CP2 ... shall
not be used for concussion mortars or flash pots. 2.7.6 Binary ...
www.info.gov.hk/tela/forms/form-p.pdf - Similar pages
[ More results from www.info.gov.hk ]
Rediff on the Net: India Online News Information ...
... and not country-made bombs -- were used. ... More. ... rocket launchers
and heavy mortars
-- to the area. ... More. ... tearing hurry to unload LPG as they were
already ...
www.rediff.com/news/octweek1.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages
ModernRules
... Width X Depth. Aircraft (assorted bombs), 4" X 6". 2-3 ... 10, 8, 6, 8
/ 7 / 6. < < <
< < Mortars and guns under 90mm. ... Roll 1D6 for Soviet 73mm LPG on BMP1's
Failure to
KO ...
www.gpa63.dial.pipex.com/wargames/modern/modernrules.htm - 32k - Cached -
Similar pages
Code of Pratice LPG
... 4.3.4, All LPG mortars shall be clearly marked with the maximum ...
Lifters are also
known as black powder bombs. ... LPG (%[*o.p), an abbreviation for
liquefied ...
www.tela-esela.gov.hk/en/CodeOfPractice/CP2_LPG.html - 101k - Cached -
Similar pages
[DOC] Figure 3-9
File Format: Microsoft Word 97 for Macintosh - View as HTML
... It produced liquefied petroleum gases (LPG), fuels, petroleum coke ...
forces using rockets,
bombs, artillery, machine gun tracers, and mortars on six occasions ...
dcdd.amedd.army.mil/ict/mout/FM%2090-10-1%20latest%20version/
Appendix%20Q.doc - Similar pages




From yourdailydeal at lists.em5000.com  Thu Dec  6 06:09:30 2001
From: yourdailydeal at lists.em5000.com (yourdailydeal)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:09:30 PST
Subject: Your 2 Minutes away from a FREE cell phone
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From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec  6 04:22:50 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:22:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
In-Reply-To: <200112060719.XAA00592@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



And a happy bomb day to you too CJ :-)
Many happy _returns_ !!!



On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 greetings at reply.yahoo.com wrote:

> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 02:19:30 -0500
> From: greetings at reply.yahoo.com
> Reply-To: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
> 
> Surprise! You've just received a Yahoo! Greeting
> from "CJ" (sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com)!
> 
> To view this greeting card, click on the following
> Web address at anytime within the next 60 days.
> 
> http://greetings.yahoo.com/greet/view?72CERHRSJ5FMT
> 
> If that doesn't work, go to http://greetings.yahoo.com/pickup and
> copy and paste this code:
> 
> 72CERHRSJ5FMT
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> The Yahoo! Greetings Team
> 
> 
> -------------------------
> Yahoo! Greetings is a free service. If you'd like to send someone a
> Yahoo! Greeting, you can do so at http://greetings.yahoo.com/
> 
> Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
> http://rd.yahoo.com/mktg/greetings/txt/confirmation/tagline/?http://personals.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 04:55:49 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:55:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Physical Meet - Tue. Dec. 11
Message-ID: 




Time:                Dec. 11, 2001
                     Second Tuesday of each month 
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later)

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the 
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the building proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick.

Contact Info:        http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#austincpunks




 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hot_tickers at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  6 07:15:27 2001
From: hot_tickers at yahoo.com (HotTicker.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 07:15:27 (GMT)
Subject: Hotticker.com Initiation of Coverage
Message-ID: <3C0EBB2C0000920A@wallstreet.stockrumors.com> (added by wallstreet.stockrumors.com)


Hotticker.com Initiation of Coverage
Corporate Profile
Multinet International Corp., Inc. (OTC BB: MNIL)
***************************************************************

Multinet International Corp., Inc. dba
Showintel Networks, Inc. Executive Summary

Address: 	574 Greentree Cove,  Suite 101, Collierville TN  38017

Exec. Contact: 	David Lott, President,  Kelly Lefkowitz, Acting CF

Industry: 	Entertainment Advertising,   Video-On Demand,  Database Marketing

Business Overview
Showintel Networks, Inc. (�Showintel�) increases consumption of entertainment by creating a system that interacts with the �entertainment life-cycle.�   Combining theater-based advertising, innovative loyalty programs, and video-on-demand (VOD) access to pay-per-view (PPV) and subscription services, ShowEnTel can increase loyalty and revenue to a chain of theaters, increase purchases of ancillary products (soundtracks, DVDs, videos, merchandise), and create a pinpoint targeted direct marketing connection with entertainment consumers to stimulate rentals and PPV.  In addition, some of the infrastructure investment can generate incremental revenue through strategic relationships with local ISP and wireless network operators.

In-theater advertising: Showintel is placing interactive displays in theaters that will offer advertising and coming attractions that theater patron can watch passively or interactively.  We have an exclusive agreement with See/Saw Communications, Inc.   See/Saw was created in part by the principals of Toolbox Productions Inc., to sell the advertising space on our displays.  Toolbox is a full service company, uniquely qualified to sell, produce, write, edit and mix audio/video promotional campaigns and sales presentations. Toolbox was founded in 1995 as the exclusive on-air promotion facility for the United Paramount Network (UPN). Clients include MGM, ABC, Sony, Paramount and Studios USA. 

Loyalty Program: As a reward for interacting with the advertising displays, theater patrons will be offered the opportunity the sign up for a loyalty program that offers them discounts on future tickets as well as discounted or free offers from sponsors of the loyalty program.

E-mail Marketing: Once a part of the loyalty program, Showintel will collect data on the movies seen.  This will allow us to market merchandise directly related to the films seen as well as creating offers for entertainment of a similar genre.  

VOD Infrastructure: As entertainment properties continue along the entertainment lifecycle, Showintel will offer PPV and subscription services to the residential and hospitality markets.

Wireless Infrastructure: Showintel has a relationship with Truespeed Wireless, Inc. a provider of 802.11b wireless systems that provide subscribers with 11Mb of bandwidth.  Since Showintel requires high bandwidth to provide this system, it will be cost effective to erect wireless towers rather than pay for dedicated bandwidth.  The extra capacity can be used by Truespeed or offered to local operators to resell.   Showintel is currently in negotiations with Truespeed regarding Showintel receiving a portion of those subscriber fees.

Information: Once Showintel knows which films a theater patron has seen, we will create online conversations with them designed to obtain feedback on the shows they have seen.  This will be valuable to film producers and advertisers.  It will give us an advantage in targeting future entertainment opportunities to the consumer.
 
The Showintel Advantage: The Entertainment Lifecycle
Unlike any other system available, Showintel gets involved with the entire entertainment lifecycle.  Over the first year, viewers can choose to pay a premium to see a show early in the lifecycle or wait to save money.  This may be from buying a soundtrack, renting the video, or watching it on broadcast TV.  Normally, each stage of the cycle centers around independent contact and interaction. With a combination of in-theater contact and an on-line VOD system, Showintel will have the opportunity to profit from several of the following lifecycle stages rather than just one.

Table has been deleted from the email and may be viewed from the hotticker.com profile on Multinet International Corp. at http://hotticker.com/mnil.asp

Benefits to Customer Groups
Showintel has multiple customer groups.  Theater owners benefit from in-theater displays and loyalty programs. Entertainment consumers benefit from loyalty programs and Showintel�s life-cycle approach to entertainment.  Entertainment producers get better feedback and additional sales opportunities.  Advertisers and sponsors receive sales and branding opportunities.

Table has been deleted from the email and may be viewed from the hotticker.com profile on Multinet International Corp. at http://hotticker.com/mnil.asp

Market Opportunity
The foundation of Showintel market expansion is derived from three primary factors:

Growth of VOD/PPV Market. The VOD market alone is expected to grow from its current annual size of $30 million to $2.6 Billion in 2005.    Analysts predict there will be as many as 44.4 million homes using VOD by 2010, making the market worth anywhere from $2 billion to $6 billion a year.  Video over DSL will have 23 million subscribers by 2005.   The combined market revenue potential for Internet and video-on-demand to be $28 billion through to 2004. 

Increased Penetration into Theater Chains. As of the end of 1999, there were 36,448 theater screens housed in 7,031 sites. Independent theaters/chains account for 2800 sites. 

Better Information to Interact with Entertainment Consumers. Research shows that the average theater viewer will interact with the same piece of entertainment an additional 2.1 times.  Knowing which films they have seen will allow us to target offers to them based on.

Growth of Location-based (Kiosk) Advertising. Dubbed �the vending machine of the Internet Age�, location based displays are growing at a 20% compounded annual rate. Revenues of $3.23 trillion are expected by 2006. Up from 400,000 units today, there should be 1 million units by 2005, a 150% increase.  The interactive display market is growing at a slightly faster (24% compounded annual) rate. 

Competition
Movie Theater Advertising

NCN: National Cinema Network was the first to  introduce media and promotions in movie theatres.  NCN has onscreen presence in 10,000 theaters, however their reach in in-theater displays is much smaller.  They are partially owned by AMC.  
Showintel Advantage over other Theater-based Advertisers � We offer continuing contact focusing on the entertainment lifecycle whereas they focus only on in-theater. We also offer a comprehensive loyalty program

Residential VOD

Moviefly: Moviefly is a venture formed in August 2001 by MGM, Sony, Paramount, Universal and Warner Bros. to distribute movies on demand over the Web. Moviefly hopes to launch with 100 titles and will need at least 1 million customers to make a profit.  Moviefly isn't using streaming video. Instead, it will require viewers to download movies in their entirety before watching. 

Movies.com: Walt Disney Co. and News Corp. are launching Movies.com, which will also be offered through cable television companies will offer movies for download and viewing on personal computers. New movies and older titles will be offered from Disney�s News Corp.'s film libraries. Disney and Fox will offer new feature films soon after they are available for rental and before they are shown on traditional pay-per-view services. The other studios, including Sony Pictures Entertainment, Universal Studios, Paramount Pictures, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer and Warner Bros., will provide their films to their video-on-demand service on a non-exclusive basis.

In Demand: iN DEMAND delivers television premieres of movies, the NBA, NHL�, ESPN� FULL COURTtm college basketball, plus championship boxing, mega-event wrestling and exclusive originals.Universal and Columbia, have announced separate deals to provide films to In Demand. Comcast, Time Warner Entertainment, Cox Communications Holdings Inc., MediaOne of Delaware Inc. and TCI Communications Inc. (an AT&T subsidiary) hold stakes in iNDEMAND, which provides pay-per-view movies and events to multichannel video programming distributors

Intertainer: Delivery: Delivered to home computers and televisions through high-speed telephone (DSL) or cable connections (cable modems or digital set-top boxes). Investors: Comcast, Intel, Microsoft, NBC, Sony and Qwest Distribution: Service has completed technical and consumer trials. Commercial deployments currently in progress. Pricing: Intertainer has multiple pricing options including pay-per-view selections, and premium program package offers. Programming: Current movies and film favorites, television shows, concerts, music videos, children's programming, documentaries, enhanced TV programs and shopping. Content Providers: Include Universal Pictures, Warner Bros., Dreamworks SKG, Twentieth Century Fox, New Line Cinema, A&E Networks, Discovery Channel, ESPN, PBS, NBC, Warner Music Group, EMI Music and many others. 
Showintel Advantage over other Residential VOD Systems � We already have knowledge of the shows seen by subscribers before they are released to VOD systems.  This allows us to target our online promotions to a group of ready, willing, and interested buyers.

Hospitality VOD

On Command: On Command Corporation annually serves 250 million guests through 950,000 rooms in approximately 3,450 hotel properties. (NASDAQ: ONCO)

Lodgenet: LodgeNet covers 5,300 lodging properties, representing 870,000 hotel rooms.  (NASDAQ: LNET)
Showintel Advantage over other Hospitality VOD Systems � we offerfaster speed connections and a larger library. 

Sales and Marketing Strategy

Aggressive direct-sales effort. Our immediate goal is the sign-up and integration of 9.7% of the theater plants in the US (24.4% of the independent theaters), expanding internationally by 2004.

Low-barrier network entry Showintel is eliminating all barriers to sign-up by initially offering low-cost integration to theater owners. This is a virtual 'land-grab' strategy that will place ShowEnTel in a dominant market position.

Back-end attack on competition. To avoid the rush for e-merchant sign-up, Showintel will concentrate on and integrate with the �back-end' becoming the network for bulk-mover warehouses in the e-marketplace.

Strategic partnering. Showintel will partner with merchandise fulfillment companies to facilitate e-commerce, with local ISPs to market excess bandwidth capacity on our wireless connections, and with 

Viral market penetration. By integrating points of aggregation, Showintel offers trading partners the most efficient, logical and convenient integration method and easy-to-use, intelligent transaction fulfillment.

Revenue
Revenues are derived from in-theater advertising, loyalty program sponsorship, hospitality VOD PPV payments, residential VOD PPV and subscription payments, merchandise sales, research report sales, and resale of excess capacity on our wireless equipment to local internet service providers.

Status
Showintel has recently completed a reverse merger into a public shell (NASDAQ Symbol: MNIL.OB). We are live with our first customer, Malco Theaters, Inc., the 23rd largest theater group headquartered in Tennessee.  We are in final stages of negotiations to reach 10% of the independent film market by December 2001.  Our sole restriction will be the capital to install the hardware in the theaters we sign up.    In concert with Truespeed, Showintel intends to  test its hospitality VOD system (in development) with a major hotel in Las Vegas.

Performance Metrics and Financial Projections
Using industry averages and internal assumptions, Showintel l should achieve the following performance goals.

Table has been deleted from the email and may be viewed from the hotticker.com profile on Multinet International Corp. at http://hotticker.com/mnil.asp

Showintel, by achieving the above business goals expects to generate these financial results:

Table has been deleted from the email and may be viewed from the hotticker.com profile on Multinet International Corp. at http://hotticker.com/mnil.asp

The Showintel Team
Showintel employs highly skilled and experienced employees with proven backgrounds, led by the following management team:

David Lott, Founder & CEO. Mr. Lott has 20 years experience in business development and management.  In addition to his responsibility to SHOWINTEL NETWORKS, Mr. Lott is President and founder of Daody Management, Inc (DMI).  DMI is a warehousing and storage management company in the Greater Memphis area of Tennessee and encompasses properties in several locales of southern Texas. Properties under his management include the Canon Computer Distribution Warehouse and PanAm Flight Training Academy.  Mr. Lott developed this large real estate, storage and management company from the ground up. In 1982 he founded and operated Landscapes Unlimited, Inc. as its President.  Landscapes Unlimited, Inc. was a top 50 company in commercial landscape contracting and management. He orchestrated the company�s sale to industry leader Orkin International in 1994.  Mr. Lott brings to SHOWINTEL NETWORKS his broad entrepreneurial and practical experience in all facets of corporate development and !
management.

Kelly Lefkowitz, CFO Mr. Lefkowitz has 17 years experience in strategy, planning, finance, implementation, and interim management including 10 years experience with entertainment, promotions, technology and web-centric businesses. Lefkowitz has a talent for balancing visionary leadership and executive management roles to maintain strategic and tactical focus simultaneously.  His experience includes consulting and/or interim management engagements for NBC Entertainment division of General Electric Inc. (NYSE: GE), Internet music giant ARTISTdirect, Inc. (NASDAQ: ARTD), Hughes Electronics Corp. (NYSE: GMH), MK division of Computer Associates, Inc. (NYSE: CA), Affinity Media, Inc., ClickPLAY, Inc., CyberActive Network, Inc., Digital Entertainment Network, Inc., Lone Wolf, Inc., Making the Turn, LLC, and MetaWire, Inc.  Lefkowitz holds a BS in Business Administration from Boston University School of Management and an MBA from the University of Southern California where he has al!
so taught strategy and planning in the School of Entrepreneurship�s Business Expansion Network. Lefkowitz is performing services for Showintel as part of a consulting agreement with ClickPLAY, Inc. He has agreed to accept the full time position when needed.
 
Alan Josef Kaplan,  Executive VP Business Development � Music and computer-industry veteran Alan Josef Kaplan is the founder and former chief executive officer of the $18 million music publishing and record label company Music West. In 1990 he received his 2nd consecutive Label of the Year award from Billboard magazine and was named one of the top 40 entrepreneurs under 40 by Entrepreneur Magazine. Kaplan worked with the first national retailer of PCs, ComputerLand. He helped launch the IBM XT and AT as well as Apple�s IIc and Macintosh computers. He served as an adviser to management of Gold Circle Entertainment (music), PackageNet (online package delivery), Headspace (now Beatnik, music on the Internet), MissionStudios (video games) and Motorola Interactive Media Festival (conference on new media and the Internet).  As the founder and  chairman of ClickPLAY, Inc., Kaplan created and led the development of a media-based software that took a radical new position in the indus!
try, insuring the complete experience everytime. This core technology will be incorporating into Showintel�s systems. Kaplan is performing services for Showintel as part of a long term contract with ClickPLAY, Inc.

************************************************************************
DISCLAIMER
Wall Street Web Inc.(Hotticker.com) is an independent research firm. This report contains forward-looking statements. Pastperformance does not guarantee future results. This report is based WSW independent analysis, and may, or may not be the opinion of Wall Street WebInc.,(Hotticker.com), but relies on information supplied believed to be reasonable. WSW has been retained by Showintel Networks, Inc., and has received350,000 restricted shares of stock. WSW, Inc and/or individuals thereof may have positions in securities referred to herein and may make purchases or sales at any time. The information contained in this report is for information purposes only and should not be construed as an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any security. Investors should consult with an investment professional before investing any monies.  Copyright2001 WSW Inc.  All Rights Reserved. 

Wall Street Web Inc.

To remove your email address from our mailing list click here.
http://www.hotticker.com/cgi-bin/remove.asp




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 05:18:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 07:18:25 -0600
Subject: SSZ Downtime - Info about fire caused by roof leak
Message-ID: <3C0F7021.61043C31@ssz.com>


http://www.io.com/NOC/network_news.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From farmhand at nctc.com  Thu Dec  6 05:29:42 2001
From: farmhand at nctc.com (Phyllis Holder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:29:42 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c17e5a$2c164d20$11292642@farmhand>


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From farmhand at nctc.com  Thu Dec  6 05:29:42 2001
From: farmhand at nctc.com (Phyllis Holder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:29:42 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c17e5a$13db9a80$11292642@farmhand>


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From dvadb at aol.com  Wed Dec  5 22:36:37 2001
From: dvadb at aol.com (dvadb at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:36:37 +0100 (MET)
Subject: whats up                                              297845841
Message-ID: <200112060636.HAA05447@www.roland.dk>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (dvadb at aol.com) on Thursday, December 6, 2001 at 07:36:36
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

: Hey, what's up, yall?  I found a site and if you want to meet people and talk to people on webcam, you should check this out.  They're now giving members totally free memberships!    You don't even need your own webcam.  You can watch live videos of family, friends, or anybody!  What is there to lose?
http://lllil.com/livewebcam




To take yourself off my mailing list Wanna see barley legal teens sucking fucking and quick to make you cum...ummm


---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Dec  6 07:59:36 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:59:36 -0800
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206200007.009f8880@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0F2568.13524.3460CF@localhost>


    --
On 6 Dec 2001, at 20:03, mattd wrote:
> Coercion is implicit in all capitalism above low level 
> market and trade.

Nonsense.

If you do not like one guy's prices or wages, you can go to 
another, or start your own business.

Without property rights, the specialization of labor has to 
take place by something very like a state telling people what 
they must do, and what they may consume.  Thus to suppress 
capitalism requires centralized terror, and lots of it. 
Nothing less will suffice.  Been tried.

And indeed that terror is a large part of the attraction of 
socialism.  Observe the popularity among socialists of books 
by those who have murdered helpless captives.  Many 
socialists even name their ideology after mass murderers, for 
example Trotskyists.   One can hardly imagine some faction of 
neo-nazis naming themselves after one of Hitler's more 
prominent goons.

Similarly, when socialists celebrate great moments in 
socialist history, it is not the heroic battles they recall, 
but the murder of the helpless and powerless -- for example 
they recall not the last days of the Paris commune, but the 
first. 

Similarly observe how the Soviet Union, Mao's china, and the
rest ceased to be loved when the terror ceased.  When the
terror in the Soviet Union was in full flow, it was described
a glorious paradise where the concept of a policeman was
strange and unknown.  When the terror eased, then they
started to describe it as regrettably wicked, but nonetheless
a much lesser evil than the USA. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     ABIneCWWlhteIvuD9hUDGb8T65PWJmjh7sU7oHNC
     4tAoGzRBh75oPqlFsnOuCfu8sy2dLtGOXMTRdT3i4




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 13:02:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:02:13 +1100
Subject: Fwd: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206075059.00a28590@pop.useoz.com>


tim Quoted...
  "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have 
been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an 
arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander 
Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago
End.
AS: excellent writer also christian,social conservative.

Bakunin was deported to Siberia. He spent many years amid the horrors of 
penal servitude, but his spirit was unvanquished. He finally succeeded in 
escaping and walking eastward over a thousand miles, under extreme 
hardship, and at last reached the sea and obtained passage to Japan. From 
there he sailed to California, thence to New York, and in 1860 appeared in 
London. He had suffered innumerable hardships and adventures, had mixed 
with all sorts and conditions of men, from the rulers of Europe to the wild 
hairy Ainus, and had everywhere found that government was tyranny.
If you'd like some quotes from an anarchist tim,Ill see what I can do. 
matts wild hairy anus.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 08:21:22 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:21:22 -0800
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their meds
Message-ID: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>


   Delta for Kicking Him off Flight Because He Was Carrying the Drug
                          The Associated Press
                         Published: Dec 6, 2001
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - A man who legally uses marijuana for
medicinal purposes is suing Delta Air Lines for kicking him off a plane
because he was carrying the drug.

Irvin Rosenfeld, a stockbroker from Boca Raton, filed suit Wednesday in
federal court, claiming the airline violated federal protections for
people with disabilities.

Rosenfeld, 48, suffers from a rare and painful bone disease and finds
relief in smoking marijuana, which is prescribed by a doctor and grown
for the government. Every day, he smokes up to 12 marijuana cigarettes
to fight tumors.

In March, he was kept from boarding a Delta flight from Fort Lauderdale
to Washington, D.C., where he was to attend a U.S. Supreme Court session
on possible expansion of medicinal marijuana use. Officials told him he
had to leave the marijuana behind or get written permission from every
state he was flying over.

Rosenfeld's attorney, Christopher Sharp, said refusing to seat his
client on the airliner was like kicking a diabetic off the flight for
carrying hypodermic needles and insulin.

"We're not putting any price tag on this, but Delta's exposure in this
is considerable," Sharp said.

Rosenfeld is one of a handful of people in the country receiving
marijuana from the federal government because of unusual diseases. He
has smoked government-provided marijuana for nearly 30 years and says
without the drug, his condition would become so painful that he could
not walk and could hemorrhage.

Under the federal Air Carriers Access Act of 1986, Delta had to specify
in writing why Rosenfeld could not board the airplane and why he was
thought to be a threat to the safety of those on board, Sharp said. The
airline did not do that, he said.

A Delta spokeswoman said she was unaware that any Americans were
permitted to smoke marijuana.

"Under federal law, marijuana is an illegal drug, and I'm not aware of
any medical use exception of the nature he claims or of any private
citizen having a right to possess it in the United States," Katie
Connell said.

Rosenfeld said that when Delta turned him away, he had to find a flight
on another airline and did not get to Washington until the following
afternoon.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA3X79RWUC.html




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 09:27:06 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:27:06 -0800
Subject: state governors want to design OSes now.. 
Message-ID: <3C0FAA6A.C1E65FAD@sarin.com>


[ If I were Bill G. I'd double the price of an OS sold to one of these
States.

Since I'm not, but still resent these States, I hope they get all the
Windows OS
they deserve. ]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011205/tc/microsoft_settlement_dc_1.html

States May Ask for Unbundled         Version of Windows

By Peter Kaplan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - State
attorneys general pressing the antitrust
case against Microsoft Corp.
(Nasdaq:MSFT - news) may ask a
judge to order the company to offer a
cheaper, stripped-down version of its Windows operating
system, a source familiar with the case said on Wednesday.

The nine states still suing Microsoft are eying the requirement
as part of a proposed antitrust remedy they are scheduled to
submit to U.S. District Court Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly on
Friday.

                           Requiring an ``unbundled'' version of Windows
is one of
                           several ideas the states are considering as
they try to come up
                           with sanctions that will be tougher than
those agreed to by
                           Microsoft, the U.S. Justice Department (news
- web sites) and
                           nine of the other states who have signed on
to a settlement of
                           the case.

        The draft remedy also would strike down a long list of loopholes
in the current
        settlement deal and do more to ensure that Microsoft discloses
key source code in
        Windows to other software makers, the source said.

        The draft also contains a provision that would require Microsoft
to include Sun
        Microsystems Inc.'s (Nasdaq:SUNW - news) Java programming
language in its new
        Windows XP (news - web sites) operating system and ensure that
its Office software
        is compatible with other software platforms, the source said.

        Microsoft had included Java in its operating system for years
but dropped it from
        Windows XP because of legal problems with Sun Microsystems.

        Lawyers representing the hold-out states held meetings today
with antitrust experts
        and industry officials to get feedback on a draft remedy
proposal, sources said.

        'GETTING AN EARFUL'

        ``They're getting input from lots of different players, and
they're getting an earful,''
        the source said.

        The hold-out states are California, Massachusetts, Connecticut,
Iowa, Florida,
        Kansas, Minnesota, West Virginia and Utah.

        Representatives of those states declined to comment on what kind
of remedy they
        will propose.

        In addition, the draft remedy proposal would require
Kollar-Kotelly to appoint a
        ``special master'' to oversee the remedy, according to the same
source.

        Under the current settlement, that task would go to a
three-person technical
        committee.

        ``I think they're seriously committed to getting an effective
remedy,'' said another
        source who has met with the attorneys general lawyers.

        The hold-out states will present their remedy proposal as an
alternative to the
        settlement reached by the Justice Department.

        In the settlement, Microsoft has agreed to take steps to give
computer makers more
        freedom to feature rival software on their machines. The deal
also requires the
        company to share parts of the inner workings of its Windows
operating system with
        other software makers.

        The settlement would be enforced by a three-person technical
committee and would
        stay in effect for at least five years.

        The department says the existing settlement terms are strong
enough to stop the
        company's monopolistic practices and would provide ``the most
effective and certain
        relief in the most timely manner.''

        ABUSED MONOPOLY

        A federal appeals court ordered the remedy hearings in a June 28
ruling, having
        concluded that the company abused its monopoly in personal
computer operating
        systems.

        Continuing to litigate could drag the case out for another two
years, the department
        says.

        But Microsoft rivals and some consumer groups have panned the
deal as weak and
        ineffectual. They say the agreement will not stop Microsoft from
retaliating against
        personal computer makers that promote non-Microsoft software.

        Critics also worry the settlement does not ensure that Microsoft
will allow a level
        playing field for other companies' add-on ``middleware''
products; and does not
        ensure that Windows will work well with computer servers running
non-Microsoft
        software.

        Kollar-Kotelly has scheduled a hearing for March to determine
what--if
        any--further--sanctions should be imposed against the company.

        Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler declined to comment specifically
on what might be
        in the remedy proposal on Friday. But he said the settlement
``represents a fair and
        reasonable compromise'' and that the case had been ``drastically
narrowed'' by the
        appeals court since the original ruling against the company last
year.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 09:32:37 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:32:37 -0800
Subject: F.B.I. officials said foreigners normally did not have privacy
  rights
Message-ID: <3C0FABB5.655D4C2@sarin.com>


F.B.I. officials said foreigners normally did not have privacy rights
        unless they have achieved permanent resident status.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nyt/20011206/ts/justice_dept_bars_use_of_gun_checks_in_terror_inquiry_1.html




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 09:33:31 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:33:31 -0800
Subject: CERT DoS'd
Message-ID: <3C0FABEB.AD612EB3@sarin.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20011205/tc/national_computer-security_site_attacked_1.html

National computer-security site attacked

        By Robert Lemos CNET News.com

        The Computer Emergency Response Team's Coordination Center, an
important
        national clearinghouse for computer-security information, came
under attack
        Wednesday, leaving its main Web site only intermittently
reachable.

                             The so-called denial-of-service attack
didn't affect the group's
                             ability to push security incident
information to its members,
                             but made public access to its sites a
crapshoot.

                             "We are working with our service providers
to resolve this
                             problem," Bill Pollak, public relations
coordinator for the
                             CERT Coordination Center, said in a
statement.

                             A denial-of-service attack can take one of
two forms: a flood
                             of data that overwhelms the Web server or
the bandwidth
                             leading to the server, or a specific
command crafted to disable
                             critical servers or Internet routers. The
CERT Coordination
                             Center (news - web sites) would not
identify which type
                             matched the attack it was suffering from.

                             The group, based at Carnegie Mellon
University in Pittsburgh,
                             Penn., coordinates the communications among
the myriad
                             response teams scattered among U.S.
universities, companies
                             and government agencies.

                             It has public Web sites to inform both
members and
                             non-members of threats but also has private
networks capable
                             of alerting members to high-priority
computer-security
                             incidents.

                             Officials at the CERT Coordination Center
would not give
                             details of the attack but earlier
acknowledged that such attacks
        are not uncommon. In May, the group suffered a similar attack.

        "We get attacked every day," Richard D. Pethia, director of the
Networked Systems
        Survivability Program at Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering
Institute, said in a
        May interview. "The lesson to be learned here is that no one is
immune to these kinds
        of attacks. They cause operational problems, and it takes time
to deal with them."

        The CERT Coordination Center is part of Carnegie Mellon's
Software Engineering
        Institute.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 09:39:58 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:39:58 -0800
Subject: Ashcroft afraid of terrorists "corrupting education"
Message-ID: <3C0FAD6E.D889B604@sarin.com>


``They are a chilling daily chronicle of the hatred of
Americans by fanatics, who seek to .. corrupt education.."

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011206/pl/ashcroft_senate_12.html

Has the entire Cabinet gotten into JFK's cache of IV amphetamine?

Is the military trying out BZ on Seventh Day Adventists in staff?




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec  6 06:51:47 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:51:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> And a happy bomb day to you too CJ :-)
> Many happy _returns_ !!!


And last night was Guy Fawkes:

http://www.bonefire.org/guy/

Gunpowder and all.

DCF
----
"At least John Ashcroft protects tha 2nd Amendment Rights of aliens so he
hasn't tossed out the whole Constitution."




From obrienh at more.net  Thu Dec  6 07:57:02 2001
From: obrienh at more.net (Obrien, Haskell W.)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:57:02 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 


subscribe cypherpunks




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 15:03:06 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:03:06 +1100
Subject: minarchy wont work(attn.D.Honing)
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206100009.00a36eb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://home.onestop.net/nomad/Childs_Open_Letter_to_Rand.html

According to this...From:  http://world.std.com/~mhuben/critobj.html




From zozo at polyinter.com  Thu Dec  6 07:05:15 2001
From: zozo at polyinter.com (MG PUBLISHING)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:05:15 -0500
Subject: Subsidies, Grants, Loans, Financing and more
Message-ID: <200112061515.fB6FFms39581@cti06.citenet.net>




MG PUBLISHING
4865 HWY 138,R.R 1
ST-ANDREWS WEST
ONTARIO, KOC 2A0


PRESS RELEASE

CANADIAN SUBSIDY DIRECTORY YEAR 2001 EDITION
Legal Deposit-National Library of Canada
ISBN 2-922870-01-4

M.G. Publishing is offering to the public a revised edition of the Canadian
Subsidy Directory, a guide containing more than 1700 direct and indirect
financial subsidies, grants and loans offered by government departments and
agencies, foundations, associations and organizations.  In this new 2001 edition
all programs are well described.

The Canadian Subsidy Directory is the most comprehensive tool to start up a
business, improve existent activities, set up a business plan, or obtain
assistance from experts in fields such as: Industry, transport, agriculture,
communications, municipal infrastructure, education, import-export, labor,
construction and renovation, the service sector, hi-tech industries, research
and development, joint ventures, arts, cinema, theatre, music and recording
industry, the self employed, contests, and new talents.
Assistance from and for foundations and associations, guidance to prepare a
business plan, market surveys, computers, and much more!

To obtain the Canadian Subsidy Directory call one of the following distributors:

Fureteur: 450-465-5597
Canadian Publications 866-322-3376

To remove your e-mail from our mailing list contact us at: mgpubl at financier.com




From presgirls at hotmail.co.nu  Thu Dec  6 10:17:36 2001
From: presgirls at hotmail.co.nu (presgirls at hotmail.co.nu)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:17:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Presidential Class	
Message-ID: <200112061817.KAA27144@toad.com>


Warning- This message is intented for people over the age of 18.  If you are not delete this message now!

Click here to see girls that only the Presdident would have.

http://213.180.33.225/spg/1/
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or if this is not your style try out these Dizzy Girls!

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To remove send a blank email here- thepresidentsgirls at yahoo.co.ca




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 10:25:51 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:25:51 -0800
Subject: Reichstag 2001: who's vaccinated against anthrax? hmmm..
Message-ID: <3C0FB82F.F4ADDCAB@sarin.com>


>>The FBI has asked laboratories around the
country for records of workers vaccinated
against anthrax, as investigators pursue a
growing suspicion that whoever mailed the
anthrax-laden letters in New Jersey must
have taken extraordinary steps to avoid
dying in the process.<<
http://www.ctnow.com/news/yahoo/hc-anthrax1206.artdec06.story

Gosh, there's about 150,000 vaccinated, indoctrinated
people with CBW training, too.  They're called soldiers.

The Feds are totally, desparately, impotent, when they start
chasing scientists.  Hey, maybe they can start on dem sneaky ole
*chinese* scientists that they find so appetizing in a Dreyfus kinda
way.

>>But he cautioned that a combination of
skill, antibiotics and luck could have saved
the mailer from contracting the disease
without having had a vaccination.<<

---
Got Horse Blood Agar?




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec  6 10:29:40 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:29:40 -0800
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their 
  meds
In-Reply-To: <20011206113149.B10754@ils.unc.edu>
References: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com> <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:31 AM 12/6/01 -0500, Greg Newby wrote:
>But insisting
>on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
>is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
>it on his person or trying to put it in checked
>baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
>any problem if it was checked.

Just for the record you are still allowed to carry on a plane
personal smoking items, eg., a butane lighter.  You can't
use them of course, on US flights, but there is no
prohibition.  [A camping tank of butane fuel is a no-no]

I don't see how plant matter can be used as a weapon unless the
stems are waaay too big :-)




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec  6 10:33:17 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:33:17 -0800
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207045259.00a350b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011206103317.007cf840@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:35 AM 12/7/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>Dave Honig wrote...Joe the nailmaker invests in a machine to make nails
faster
>than he can by hand. Who has he coerced?
>
>Who cares? its low level market and
> >trade


Well, I care about coercion; and you state that 'capitalism is coercion'.



>The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state lurking in the 
>background and attempting to monopolies money.

Joe bought his machine in a mutually consenting transaction, no State
involvement.




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec  6 07:44:26 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:44:26 -0500 (est)
Subject: Honest business opportunity reporting     1868
In-Reply-To: <15745j2B38r1R7H0qvJitBM1Hu2SReh8YVV77H6C4T@7aSjoGdRtOjLfk3z9kkH72DP1q4b68>
Message-ID: 


I almost never comment on spam, but this one is ridiculously funny!  :)

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On 5 Dec 2001 265WdCLeC at nrigw01.index.or.jp wrote:

> Internet scams, con games, illegal pyramid schemes.
> There are so many business opportunities available on the internet,
> How do you know which one to pick?
> 
> Simple, Let us pick one for you!






From bmm at minder.net  Thu Dec  6 07:58:11 2001
From: bmm at minder.net (Brian Minder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:58:11 -0500
Subject: A little quiet in here....
In-Reply-To: <200112052143.fB5Lhjm18964@slack.lne.com>; from mikecabot@fastcircle.com on Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:46:19PM -0500
References: <200112052143.fB5Lhjm18964@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20011206105811.B21271@waste.minder.net>


cypherpunks at minder.net lacks the subscriber-only filtering of lne.com, but
has been operational since February 1998.

Thanks,

-Brian

-- 
bmm at minder.net                                                1024/8C7C4DE9

On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:46:19PM -0500, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:
> Hmmm.... no CDR traffic for about two days..... Toad is dead, 
> einstein.ssz.com seems off the 'Net completely, and lne.com is 
> deserted.
> 
> Conspiracy theorists, start your keyboards :)




From getnoticed at getfriction.org  Thu Dec  6 09:06:13 2001
From: getnoticed at getfriction.org (get some)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:06:13 -0600
Subject: get some for the holidays
Message-ID: <200112061705.JAA19974@toad.com>

 Check this out!



A cool new internet experience!
A great gift idea for the Holidays!



Go to getfriction.org and get in the action!
 

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From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 11:11:33 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 11:11:33 -0800
Subject: multicasting w/ cell phones (Acad ref)
Message-ID: <3C0FC2E4.891FDB93@sarin.com>


Integrated Multicast for Ad-Hoc Networks

The IMAHN project is investigating multicast protocols in ad-hoc
networks.
Ad-hoc networks are collections of mobile nodes communicating using
wireless media, without any fixed infrastructure.
Conventional routing is inadequate in these scenarios, as the mobility
aspect can cause rapid and frequent changes in
network topology. Moreover, each mobile host must be able to act both as
a network router and an endpoint, because
limited transmission ranges necessitate forwarding packets over multiple
hops.

Existing multicast protocols fall short because node mobility causes
conventional multicast trees to rapidly become
outdated. Frequent state changes require constant updates, reducing the
already limited bandwidth available for data, and
possibly never converging to accurately portray the current topology.

Instead, a stateless multicast protocol is proposed for the above
scenario. This is based on flooding the network with
packets of the multicast stream. Adaptive flooding is introduced to
enhance multicast reliability in the face of high
mobility.

http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~kumarv/imahn.html




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Thu Dec  6 08:21:23 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 11:21:23 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB50000016A6@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Dec  6 08:31:49 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:31:49 -0500
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their
  meds
In-Reply-To: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
References: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <20011206113149.B10754@ils.unc.edu>


Has anyone here smoked any federally grown grass?
How does it compare to stuff you can buy on the
street?

The idea of getting approval from all states he
flew over (below) is clearly absurd.  But insisting
on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
it on his person or trying to put it in checked
baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
any problem if it was checked.

  -- Greg

On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 08:21:22AM -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
> 
>    Delta for Kicking Him off Flight Because He Was Carrying the Drug
>                           The Associated Press
>                          Published: Dec 6, 2001
> FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - A man who legally uses marijuana for
> medicinal purposes is suing Delta Air Lines for kicking him off a plane
> because he was carrying the drug.
> 
> Irvin Rosenfeld, a stockbroker from Boca Raton, filed suit Wednesday in
> federal court, claiming the airline violated federal protections for
> people with disabilities.
> 
> Rosenfeld, 48, suffers from a rare and painful bone disease and finds
> relief in smoking marijuana, which is prescribed by a doctor and grown
> for the government. Every day, he smokes up to 12 marijuana cigarettes
> to fight tumors.
> ...




From associates-recruit at amazon.com  Thu Dec  6 11:40:40 2001
From: associates-recruit at amazon.com (Lisa Lindberg, Amazon.com Associates Program)
Date: 6 Dec 2001 11:40:40 -0800
Subject: ADV: Amazon.com can help you get more from your Web site!
Message-ID: <.AAA-1739185-31824,3304.1007667640@mail-ems-102.amazon.com>

Greetings from Amazon.com! 

My name is Lisa Lindberg, and I'm from the Amazon.com Associates Program. 

The purpose of my letter is to promote the Amazon.com Associates Program to 
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Sincerely,

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Amazon.com Associates

You received this message because I think your site would make a great 
addition to our Associates program. I hope that this opportunity holds 
value for you. However, if you wish not to receive this type of mail from 
Amazon.com in the future, please reply to this mail with the word remove as 
the subject line.
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From ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com  Thu Dec  6 08:39:51 2001
From: ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com (ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:39:51 -0400 (AST)
Subject: PhotoPoint Marketplace Update
Message-ID: <200112061639.fB6Gdpk26951@sdev10.photopoint.com>



=================================================================
Please note, this email is being sent to inform you of
important changes to your PhotoPoint account. Even if you have
opted out of promotional messages, we are required to contact
you regarding this important change.
=================================================================

Dear member:

We have encountered some technical difficulties and hope to have
prints, framed prints and photo gifts back online as soon as
possible.

We realize that you, our loyal customers, would like to order
prints and photo merchandise for the Holiday Season. In order to
provide this service to you, and ensure you get the same great
quality, we ask that you go to:

http://www.ezprints.com 

EZ Prints is a trusted partner and we are confident that they
will handle all your photo ordering needs, giving us time to get
our service operational again.

EZ Prints is a FREE service. You can join EZ Prints, upload your
photos and order photo merchandise quickly and easily. We realize
this may cause some inconvenience and frustration, as it does for
us. We sincerely apologize for this and assure you EZ Prints will
do their utmost to make your holiday photo gift-giving a reality.

Sincerely,

The PhotoPoint Family




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 18:03:54 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:03:54 +1100
Subject: IP: FBI Reorganization Posted 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206125929.00a2c6e0@pop.useoz.com>


The death lists
by proffr1 at nospamfuckmicrosoft.com 5:47am Thu Dec 6 '01

Honeywell helped the phoenix program in 'nam and PROMIS stolen software 
helped round em up in guatamala and the old south africa.This mob just got 
80 million to be the next. http://www.csc.com.au/
here in Australia.

But first, a little background information about CSC. We are a full-scope, 
global IT services company. We pride ourselves on providing real solutions 
to customers' business problems. These solutions range from management 
consulting, systems development, systems integration to outsourcing. Our 
solutions are based on experience, innovation and total capability.

Being part of the global CSC offers our customers here access to some of 
the world's best people, processes, intellectual property and technology. 
We leverage the very best ideas and approaches from our worldwide industry 
verticals (such as Financial Services and Healthcare). We access those 
market-leading services from our global operations (like Outsourcing) to 
complement the regional and local relationships developed with our customers.

The DoD's Computer Investigations Training Program offered its first class, 
Introduction to Computer Search and Seizure, in September 1998. 
More...at... 
http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=9108&group=webcast   and 
www.cryptome.org of corse.




From getnoticed at getfriction.org  Thu Dec  6 11:05:06 2001
From: getnoticed at getfriction.org (get some)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:05:06 -0600
Subject: get some for the holidays
Message-ID: <200112061904.LAA28905@toad.com>

 Check this out!



A cool new internet experience!
A great gift idea for the Holidays!



Go to getfriction.org and get in the action!
 

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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Dec  6 10:27:20 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:27:20 -0500 
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their
  meds
Message-ID: 


I've not indulged, but I've heard of this program (my data is
several years old).

The Feds do have a farm (in kentucky? west virginia?) 
where a small amount of pot is grown under high security
for licensed researchers. IIRC, the marijuana
is graded, washed, mixed with tobacco(!?) as a filler, 
and rolled  on standard cigarette machines. The article
I read noted that some felt that the differences from a
'real' hand-rolled joint put research done using these
standardized doobies into doubt.

If Mr. Rosenfeld had put his legal joints into checked
luggage, there's a chance that a DEA dog would have
narced him out. Though he presumably would not have
gotten into trouble, it could be an enormous hassle. 

What I find curious is that the joints came to Delta's
attention at all. Maybe the packaging makes it clear
what they are. Anyway, Delta deserves whatever it
gets over this.

Peter Trei

> ----------
> Greg Newby[SMTP:gbnewby at ils.unc.edu] wrote:
> 
> 
> Has anyone here smoked any federally grown grass?
> How does it compare to stuff you can buy on the
> street?
> 
> The idea of getting approval from all states he
> flew over (below) is clearly absurd.  But insisting
> on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
> is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
> it on his person or trying to put it in checked
> baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
> any problem if it was checked.
> 
>   -- Greg
> 
> On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 08:21:22AM -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
> > 
> >    Delta for Kicking Him off Flight Because He Was Carrying the Drug
> >                           The Associated Press
> >                          Published: Dec 6, 2001
> > FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - A man who legally uses marijuana for
> > medicinal purposes is suing Delta Air Lines for kicking him off a plane
> > because he was carrying the drug.
> > 
> > Irvin Rosenfeld, a stockbroker from Boca Raton, filed suit Wednesday in
> > federal court, claiming the airline violated federal protections for
> > people with disabilities.
> > 
> > Rosenfeld, 48, suffers from a rare and painful bone disease and finds
> > relief in smoking marijuana, which is prescribed by a doctor and grown
> > for the government. Every day, he smokes up to 12 marijuana cigarettes
> > to fight tumors.
> > ...




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Dec  6 10:45:33 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their
  meds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com> <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011206134532.B21255@ils.unc.edu>


On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 10:29:40AM -0800, David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 11:31 AM 12/6/01 -0500, Greg Newby wrote:
> >But insisting
> >on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
> >is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
> >it on his person or trying to put it in checked
> >baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
> >any problem if it was checked.
> 
> Just for the record you are still allowed to carry on a plane
> personal smoking items, eg., a butane lighter.  You can't
> use them of course, on US flights, but there is no
> prohibition.  [A camping tank of butane fuel is a no-no]

Of course!

BTW, this doesn't mean you can refill your zippo.  Every
year or so we hear about a plane that made an emergency
landing or arrested a passenger for bringing lighter
fluid (in a can) on board and refilling their lighter
en route.  Most of the airline magazines and other 
places that list prohibited substances are pretty 
explicit about lighter fluid being banned (yes, it's
OK if it's inside a disposable lighter).

> I don't see how plant matter can be used as a weapon unless the
> stems are waaay too big :-)

Ever seen a baseball bat :-)  ?

But smokable plant matter seems innocuous enough.  Next
thing, you won't be able to wear that hemp tie or shirt!
  -- Greg




From pcapelli at nsec.net  Thu Dec  6 10:47:27 2001
From: pcapelli at nsec.net (Peter Capelli)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:47:27 -0500
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their 
  meds
References: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
  <20011206113149.B10754@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <00aa01c17e86$7426c5a0$01000100@diamondjoe>


    Yes, but every travel magazine, travel agent, and even the airlines tell
you not to put medications you rely on in your checked luggage, for fear of
losing them, or losing short-term access to them.  It's not like it would be
easy (legally anyway) to refill that prescription while on the road ...

-p

----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Newby" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their meds


> Has anyone here smoked any federally grown grass?
> How does it compare to stuff you can buy on the
> street?
>
> The idea of getting approval from all states he
> flew over (below) is clearly absurd.  But insisting
> on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
> is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
> it on his person or trying to put it in checked
> baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
> any problem if it was checked.
>
>   -- Greg


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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 18:58:26 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:58:26 +1100
Subject: will the real capitalism please stand up
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206135241.00a2bd90@pop.useoz.com>


Tim may or a pretender wrote "The solution is obvious: capitalism. The
real one, not the fascist version."

Objectivism the real thing? How do you separate  fascism  from capitalism? 




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 14:02:33 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:02:33 -0800
Subject: speak against the US, get investigated in AU
Message-ID: <3C0FEAF9.99157C8D@sarin.com>


http://www.smh.com.au/news/0112/07/text/national12.html

Shock as columnist investigated for un-American activity



Phillip Adams, defender of the rights of man, is in an unexpected spot
of bother, Pilita Clark reports.

It sounds too strange to be true.

Warren Beeby, the group editorial manager of News Ltd, publisher of The
Australian newspaper, says he can barely
believe it himself.

But yesterday he confirmed that one of the paper's better-known
columnists, the ABC broadcaster Phillip Adams, is
under investigation for alleged racial vilification by the Human Rights
and Equal Opportunity Commission.

Adams is such a vigorous opponent of racism, discrimination and all
manner of oppression that the Prime Minister once
famously urged the ABC to find a "right-wing Phillip Adams" to balance
its political output.

But Mr Beeby said an American citizen had complained to the commission
over a column Adams wrote in October
about Australia's "blank cheque" support of the United States's war
against terrorism.

In the column, Adams argued that US history was replete with racial
violence at home and flawed foreign policy abroad,
including the bombing of Cambodia, complicity with the Pinochet regime
in Chile and one-time support for Iraq's
Saddam Hussein.

"If Australia is to be a true friend of the American people, we must try
to rein them in, not urge them on," he wrote.
"The US has to learn that its worst enemy is the US."

Mr Beeby said the commission wrote to News Ltd in late November asking
for a response to a complaint it had received
about Adams and the column.

"We're in the process of replying on behalf of the newspaper and Phillip
is in the process of thinking what he will say as
well," he said.

Mr Beeby first raised the complaint, without naming Adams, in a speech
on press freedom to the Commonwealth Press
Union earlier this week.

He told the Herald yesterday he found it hard to believe the commission
could take such a complaint seriously. "I've
never heard of an American being racially vilified before. I think this
is one of the great tragedies of our time."

He said it was of deep concern to all Australian media organisations
when bodies such as the commission used their
powers to stifle debate critical to the public interest, such as Adams's
column.

"It was a clinically argued case, whether you agree with it or not, and
an important part of the debate about what is
going on, and suddenly it's racial vilification of Americans."

A spokeswoman for the commission said it never commented on complaints
before it. "All I can say is the normal
procedure for complaints is to ask for a response [from those being
complained about]. We would then examine the
complaint and if it is lacking in substance we would terminate it."

Phillip Adams could not be reached last night.




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec  6 11:14:10 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:14:10 -0500
Subject: What's Our National Identity? 
Message-ID: <3C0FC382.44760361@panix.com>


http://sierratimes.com/archive/files/dec/06/eddf120601.htm

What's Our National Identity?
By Duncan Frissell 12.06.01

Oracle's Larry Ellison and Harvard's Allen Dershowitz have been all over
the media recently pitching a National ID Card. One poll indicates 70%
public support for the notion.

Most critics of a National Identity Card mention Hitler, police stops,
and personal privacy to argue against the proposal.  Those are good
reasons to oppose a National ID Card, but they  miss the idea's worst
features.

Proponents of a National ID Card have a responsibility to tell us
exactly what the system will do to day-to-day life in America.  They are
unlikely to do so because most thoughtful Americans would be alarmed at
the prospect.

A National ID card is *not* really about identity. It is about
authorization.
...
When you present your National ID to complete a transaction, you will
actually be asking the Federal Government for its permission. It
converts most significant transactions that you make from private ones
to public ones. It creates a government license for all jobs, all
travel, all medical care, and many purchases. This is a profoundly
troubling departure from American traditions.
...

DCF
----
"War is Heck!"




From adam at homeport.org  Thu Dec  6 11:22:25 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:22:25 -0500
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011201140536.A27178@weathership.homeport.org> 
Message-ID: <20011206142225.A23125@weathership.homeport.org>


Raph, not Ralph.

The attack involved Alice and Bob giving opposite reputations to
Charlie, or Alice and Bob, both of whom you respect, giving very bad
reputations to each other.

Adam

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 11:38:53AM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| 
| Thanks for the pointer, a very good essay indeed. :)
| 
| I haven't checked in any meaningful way, but that thread doesn't seem to
| have any replies from Ralph...  Do you recall any details as to what would
| cause oscillations?  Would be interesting to explore this.
| 
| I expect that having a way to prove collusion by checking who praises
| whom, etc. would likely avoid such problems.  As would I suppose personal
| observation of current behavior.
| 
| Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
| positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
| I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
| quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
| least they're funny...)
| 
| 
| ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
|  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
|   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
| <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
|   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
|  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
| --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
| 
| On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:
| 
| > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:00:33PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| > | 
| > | Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400.  Then
| > | I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so
| > | now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620.
| > 
| > Interesting idea.  I proposed something very similar in
| > http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00313.html Raph
| > demonstrated a bit later that the system could be forced into
| > oscilation and had other problems, although that might have been in
| > person, not on list.
| > 
| > Adam
| > 
| > -- 
| > Imminent death of the list predicted.  Film already in the
| > archives, 11/95. 
| > 
| > 
| > 
| > 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From adam at homeport.org  Thu Dec  6 11:23:23 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:23:23 -0500
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011201140536.A27178@weathership.homeport.org> 
Message-ID: <20011206142322.B23125@weathership.homeport.org>


PS: Raph is the one who later created avogato, with a simpler
reputation system.  I can't recall if he talks about these schemes in
his writings on reputation.

Adam

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 11:38:53AM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| 
| Thanks for the pointer, a very good essay indeed. :)
| 
| I haven't checked in any meaningful way, but that thread doesn't seem to
| have any replies from Ralph...  Do you recall any details as to what would
| cause oscillations?  Would be interesting to explore this.
| 
| I expect that having a way to prove collusion by checking who praises
| whom, etc. would likely avoid such problems.  As would I suppose personal
| observation of current behavior.
| 
| Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
| positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
| I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
| quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
| least they're funny...)
| 
| 
| ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
|  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
|   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
| <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
|   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
|  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
| --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
| 
| On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:
| 
| > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:00:33PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| > | 
| > | Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400.  Then
| > | I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so
| > | now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620.
| > 
| > Interesting idea.  I proposed something very similar in
| > http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00313.html Raph
| > demonstrated a bit later that the system could be forced into
| > oscilation and had other problems, although that might have been in
| > person, not on list.
| > 
| > Adam
| > 
| > -- 
| > Imminent death of the list predicted.  Film already in the
| > archives, 11/95. 
| > 
| > 
| > 
| > 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 12:29:14 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:29:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Remailer "Reliable" (fwd)
Message-ID: 



Please respond directly to the person asking for aid...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:45:43 +0100 (CET)
From: "[iso-8859-1] Madeleine Katchert" 
Reply-To: austin-cpunks at ssz.com
To: maddyka2001 at yahoo.de
Subject: The Remailer "Reliable"

Do you know of anyone who knows how to set up the
program "Reliable"?

__________________________________________________________________
Nokia 5510. Verr�cktes Design! Toller Sound! 
Entdecke und gewinne es auf http://de.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ 
Gewinnspiel endet am 16. Dezember 2001.




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec  6 15:04:19 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:04:19 -0800
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their 
  meds
In-Reply-To: <20011206134532.B21255@ils.unc.edu>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com> <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011206150419.007af100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:45 PM 12/6/01 -0500, Greg Newby wrote:
>
>BTW, this doesn't mean you can refill your zippo.  Every
>year or so we hear about a plane that made an emergency
>landing or arrested a passenger for bringing lighter
>fluid (in a can) on board and refilling their lighter
>en route.  

My favorite story was the LA gangster who freaked over the
fact that he was carrying PCP in baby bottles so he poured them on
the seat.  He was arrested and the seat pads replaced.

He might have been sampling the wares, one suspects.

Happened inside the last year, departing from LAX.




From adam at homeport.org  Thu Dec  6 12:16:26 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:16:26 -0500
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>  <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org>  <20011202181740.A7089@weathership.homeport.org> 
Message-ID: <20011206151626.A23635@weathership.homeport.org>


On Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 07:54:43PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

| > | Just to sort of thrash things a bit, in a capital markets
| > | transaction, an exchange isn't such a hard thing to do, in the
| > | sense that a secondary bearer-form asset transaction (primary is
| > | like an IPO, or, for cash, a collateral asset conversion like an
| > | ATM
| > | transaction), cash for bond, say, would require the participation
| > | of the underwriters in the exchange protocol.
| > [...]
| > | At primary issuance, a trustee is involved, so, that probably
| > | supervises the Underwriter, who ever it is owns the underwriting
| > | engine. The above should hold for all kinds of unique, uncopyable
| > | things, teleoperated surgery, or opinions, for instance.
| >
| > A nym is none of these.
| 
| I'm not so sure. If you create a nym as a unique entity which has
| control of keys which control assets, the word "unique" points to
| bearer-instrument protocol of some kind. A stock-exchange seat comes
| to mind. You don't want to sell multiple copies of a key, for
| instance, at least for lots of interesting uses.

What is the unique entity seperate from its key?  You can't have a pen 
legally controlling your stock exchange seat, so how can a keypair?

You can use a keypair to show control (like a chop), but I'm unaware
of anywhere the instrument is considered to have control.

| 
| > | For "software", in the Gary Becker sense of something that can be
| > | copied, all we're really looking for is something which
| > | authenticates that a given copy of an information good is in fact
| > | signed by the person proported to be the "author" of that
| > | information/content/code. Coupled with a decent third-party
| > | time-signature mechanism, you're fine, because, after the first
| > | copy, such a good is a purely fungible commodity ala Hughes'
| > | "Institutional Piracy", or the Agoric guys' "digital silk road",
| > | or my "recursive geodesic auction" stuff. Such situations are
| > | classic examples of so-called "perfect competition", as found in
| > | physical graded-commodity markets everywhere.
| >
| > So here's the rub.  A nym (as I'm using the term) is control over a
| > private key thats associated with some reputation, which Alice is
| > trying to sell to Bob.  Alice can not provide direct assurance that
| > she won't keep copies of the thing she's selling.
| 
| Which means, you need a different protocol for selling them. I think
| you walked away too soon from the idea of a nym as a financial
| instrument, a contingent claim of some kind. Title to assets, at the
| very least, plus or minus "goodwill", for lack of a better word. I
| *think* it's part of the definition of a firm, in the Coasean sense
| of a collection of assets that are worth more together because they
| can transfer the value of those assets for more competitive advantage
| internally than the firm gets if those assets are sold into the
| market directly.

Nyms don't have assets.  People and legal fictions have assets.

| > Through intermediaries, Bob can buy some insurance that the
| > revocation  games Alice can play are limited.
| 
| See, you're talking about finance already :-). Insurance is a
| contingent claim on assets based on external events. Remember how
| they called program trading of various derivatives "portfolio
| insurance" once apon a market crash?

All men are Socrates.

I can buy insurance against the value of things without needing to
allow those things to own other things.  For example, I have this fine 
diamond ring, which is insured.  I have this fine .jpg of Bill and
Monica, which is not insurable, because it is copyable.  Neither my
diamond ring, nor my jpg, may own property.

| > How valuable that insurance is
| > depends on the trustworthiness of the intermediaries, how likely
| > the reliant parties are to properly check signatures, and the value
| > of social engineering in a field where process issues are not yet
| > well understood.  (See also
| > http://www.seifried.org/security/articles/20011023-devil-in-details.
| > html)
| 
| Say 'amen', somebody...
| 
| > There might be a relationship here to the sale of music bits; the
| > RIAA  is all worked up over issues of how do they sell the same
| > bits over and over.  If you can answer the question of "How to sell
| > a set of bits exactly once?" you may be able to answer the question
| > "How to ensure that I don't keep a copy of those bits?" or "How do
| > I sell a million people copies of the same bits without them
| > transferring them around."
| 
| First of all, I think that music shouldn't be copy controlled,
| because it's "software", in the pure Beckerian sense of something
| that can be copied, and, on the net it can be copied for almost
| nothing, something that probably makes Coase smile, somewhere, which
| was my point about commodity markets for information.

So, how does music differ from a key?  Its all bits, and those bits
are easier to create than musical bits.

| The part about selling something once is what Chaum did already with
| DigiCash. The mint keeps a copy of the first "note", and, if another
| one crosses the transom, the key of the counterfeiter is revealed.
| Anyone who takes the cash offline, without the participation of the
| underwriter, deserves what he gets if the cash is double-spent,
| right?
| 
| I think the apparatus for selling nyms is there already. Like I said
| before, all we need is an exchange protocol, something, like price
| discovery, has already been solved by lots of people (Micali has one,
| for instance, though I'm not sure how good it is because I'm not
| qualified to examine it), so we just have to find the best one.

And why can't we apply those to music?

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Dec  6 07:34:23 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:34:23 +0000
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0F8FFF.31F7DA81@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > And a happy bomb day to you too CJ :-)
> > Many happy _returns_ !!!
> 
> And last night was Guy Fawkes:

Eh?

array zero-origin  error!

"Remember, remember the fifth of *November* " as the old rhyme goes.
Last night was the fifth of December.

 
> http://www.bonefire.org/guy/
> 
> Gunpowder and all.

And that "bonefire" site killed my browser.


Ken  Brown


Here's a full version as used at Lewes in Sussex (the only county where
Bonfire is properly celebrated!).  I guess when they bring in all their
silly new laws such verses will be illegal.


Remember,Remember
The Fifth of November,
Gunpowder treason and plot;
I see no reason
Why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.

Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes,
'Twas his intent
To blow up the King and the Parliament;
Three score barrels of powder below
Poor old England to overthrow;
By God's providence he was catch'd
With a dark lantern and burning match.

Holler boys, holler, make the bells ring,
Holler boys holler, God Save the King! 

A penny loaf to feed the Pope,
A farthing O' cheese to choke him,
A pint of beer to rinse it down,
A faggot of sticks to burn him!

Burn him in a tub of tar,
Burn him like a blazing star.
Burn his body from his head.
Then we'll say old Pope is dead!
Hip, hip, Hooray!




From 1.10198689.-18 at multexinvestornetwork.com  Thu Dec  6 13:04:33 2001
From: 1.10198689.-18 at multexinvestornetwork.com (Multex Investor)
Date: 6 Dec 2001 16:04:33 -0500
Subject: MortgageIT, Loan or Refinance Now!
Message-ID: <0f54a33042106c1MINLIST4@multexinvestornetwork.com>

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From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec  6 13:05:12 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:05:12 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation
In-Reply-To: <20011206142225.A23125@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 


But that's not a problem as that's a small set of players.  You also have
several hundred others who give positive or negative repcaps to Alice,
Bob, Charlie, Doug, Eddie, Frank, Jenny, etc and to each other.

If two people have a bitch out, that's not going to affect them in a
positive way.  If Alice and Bob give opposite repcaps to Charlie, they'll
cancel each other out, so repcaps from Doug, Eddie Frank, Jenny would
provide a closer look.

It would be a very rare thing to have a 50/50 postive/negative repcap.


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Raph, not Ralph.
> 
> The attack involved Alice and Bob giving opposite reputations to
> Charlie, or Alice and Bob, both of whom you respect, giving very bad
> reputations to each other.
> 
> Adam




From bjonkman at [24.42.38.77]  Thu Dec  6 13:44:29 2001
From: bjonkman at [24.42.38.77] (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:44:29 -0500
Subject: A note to virus authors
In-Reply-To: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
Message-ID: <3C0FA06D.23129.2ABD649@localhost>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From ENTER.YOUR.USERNAME.HERE at bournemouth.ac.uk  Thu Dec  6 08:56:02 2001
From: ENTER.YOUR.USERNAME.HERE at bournemouth.ac.uk (ENTER YOUR USERNAME HERE)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:56:02 +0000
Subject: legislation in antartica?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011206165602.0099db48@athena.bournemouth.ac.uk>






From 722953jack2002 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  6 17:07:22 2001
From: 722953jack2002 at hotmail.com (722953jack2002 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:07:22
Subject: 7624           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  229537
Message-ID: <200112060808.fB688vp26366@ak47.algebra.com>


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From 72362jack2002 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  6 17:07:23 2001
From: 72362jack2002 at hotmail.com (72362jack2002 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:07:23
Subject: 496           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  23627
Message-ID: <200112060821.CAA01530@einstein.ssz.com>


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From 724125jack2002 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  6 17:07:24 2001
From: 724125jack2002 at hotmail.com (724125jack2002 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:07:24
Subject: 1000           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  241257
Message-ID: <200112062121.NAA04849@toad.com>


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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:07:24
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Subject: 5496           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  246877
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From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Dec  6 17:57:52 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 17:57:52 -0800
Subject: US seeks to force feed pilot it tricked, detained 
Message-ID: <3C10221F.35997914@cdc.gov>


U.S. Seeks Force-Feeding Order for Fasting Detainee in Phoenix
Courts: The unusual step involves a Middle Eastern pilot protesting his
jailing in a dragnet. He
faces identity fraud charges.

http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000097083dec06.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation

                    By RICH CONNELL, TIMES STAFF WRITER

                    Federal prosecutors in Phoenix are asking a judge to
issue an unusual
                    order to force-feed a hunger-striking Middle Eastern
pilot arrested on
                    charges stemming from the investigation of the Sept.
11 terrorism
                    attacks.

                    Malek Mohamed Seif, also known as Malek Mohamed
Abdulah, is
                    protesting what he contends is his improper
detention as part of the
                    global anti-terrorism dragnet.

                                                            Taking only
                                                            liquids,
Seif has
                                                            lost 30
pounds
                                                            since his
October
                                                            arrest and
is
                                                            rapidly

deteriorating,
                                                            officials
said. Seif,
                                                            36, believed
to
                                                            be a
Djibouti
                                                            national,
has
                                                            acknowledged
a
                                                            passing
                                                            acquaintance
with
                                                            one of the
                                                            suspected
                                                            skyjackers.

                    He also trained at the same Phoenix area flight
school as an Algerian
                    pilot suspected of helping prepare some of the
hijackers, according to
                    federal investigative records.

                    But the only charges filed to date against Seif are
for identity fraud. A
                    federal judge recently stressed in a court order
that no evidence has
                    been presented linking him to terrorism.

                    Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who is housing
Seif for federal
                    authorities, says he is getting worried about his
high-profile inmate. "I
                    don't want this guy to die in my jail," said the
no-frills lawman who
                    made headlines by housing prisoners in desert tents
and making them
                    wear pink shirts. Arpaio says he has been talking
with Seif, trying to
                    coax him to eat.

                    As a compromise, Arpaio said, he removed pork from
Seif's meals.
                    But he has declined to fill his special requests for
dates and ice water.
                    "I said, 'We don't have room service.' "
Seif's attorney, Thomas Hoidal, reported to a judge Monday that his
                    client was in the jail infirmary and too weak to
attend a hearing.

                    Seif, who left the U.S. before the attacks, has
complained that federal
                    investigators duped him into returning to answer
questions. After he
                    landed in Phoenix on Oct. 25, he was arrested for
allegedly making
                    false statements on federal forms to obtain dual
identities.

                    "He doesn't understand, when he came back
voluntarily, why he is
                    being treated in this fashion," said Hoidal, who
also is trying to
                    persuade Seif to eat.

                    Prosecutors expect to file additional bank and
financial fraud charges
                    against Seif and are worried he may be unfit to
stand trial. They are
                    seeking medical and psychiatric evaluations of Seif.

                    One veteran U.S. law enforcement official in Phoenix
said he knew of
                    no other instance when federal prosecutors there
sought a
                    forced-feeding order.

                    Sporadic hunger strikes have been reported among the
more than
                    1,000 detainees rounded up in the anti-terrorism
crackdown. But Seif,
                    who has dropped from about 180 to about 150 pounds,
appears to
                    have lasted the longest.

                    It is not clear whether Seif intends to fight the
forced feeding order, his
                    attorney said. A hearing is scheduled for today.
Arpaio doubts a
                    judge's order will be effective, as long as Seif
remains conscious. "If
                    he's still coherent . . . you can't force the guy to
eat if he says he
                    doesn't want to."

                    In another development Wednesday, a coalition of 16
civil liberties
                    groups filed suit against the Justice Department,
demanding information
                    about those arrested and detained since the Sept. 11
attacks. The groups said they were seeking
                    such information as the names of the detainees, the
charges against them and how long they have
                    been held.

                    Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft has argued that some of the
information must be kept secret to aid in the
                    investigation.

                    Kate Martin of the Center for National Security
Studies, a plaintiff in the case, said that instead of
                    federal officials "simply announcing that they are
respecting the Constitution, we need evidence that
                    will show whether that is true."




From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Dec  6 18:02:59 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 18:02:59 -0800
Subject: slavery in New Jersey
Message-ID: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov>


Complete with soccer-mom revolutionaries and "obligatory contracts"...

I suppose this is what you get for working for the state, eh?


http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000097073dec06.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation

MIDDLETOWN, N.J. -- On Saturday, the Middletown High School
South Tigers won the state football championship. On Monday, their
head coach went to jail.

Coach Steve Antonucci was among 135 striking schoolteachers and
secretaries behind bars by day's end Wednesday, and the number is
expected to swell as nearly 900 continue to defy a judge's order to get
off the picket line and into the classroom.

                                                            The five-day

                                                            strike and
jailings
                                                            have torn
this
                                                            otherwise
                                                            average
                                                            American
                                                            suburban
                                                            community in

                                                            two.
Favorite
                                                            kindergarten

                                                            teachers,
drama
                                                            coaches and
                                                            others who
have
                                                            always seen
                                                            themselves
as
                                                            normal,
                                                            law-abiding
folks
                    are being led to jail sobbing or defiantly
denouncing the local school
                    board and residents. "This town ought to be ashamed
of itself," said
                    Lauren Spatz, a second-grade teacher. "The parents
don't care about education. . . . It's not going
                    to be the same ever again. The teachers' morale is
going to be shot."

                    But parents and administrators say the teachers'
timing couldn't be worse, with layoffs at nearby
                    computer firms and families still shaken by the
death of more than 30 local residents in the World
                    Trade Center attacks.

                    And there is no end in sight.

                    "It's become a war," said plain-spoken,
chain-smoking school Supt. Jack DeTalvo, shortly before
                    getting on the phone to give instructions to the
board's attorney about how to garner the best
                    coverage on local evening news shows.

                    One thing all sides agree on: If and when the
contentious job action ends, the bitterness could leach
                    into the classroom.

                    The strike has left 10,500 students out of school in
this sprawling suburb of 70,000 an hour and a
                    half south of New York City. With record-breaking
warm weather, the days off are a treat for the
                    children but a hardship for working parents, who
range from truck drivers to Wall Street
                    investment brokers.

                    In addition, state law dictates that all missed
school days are made up at the end of the year.

                    Teachers counter that a few days of inconvenience is
minor compared to being hauled off in
                    handcuffs.

                    "I'm a soccer mom, I drive a van and I have a dog,"
science teacher Katie Connelly said with a
                    rueful laugh as she sat waiting to go to jail. "But
this is our revolution. . . . The only way you get
                    respect is if you stand up for yourself."

                    Dispute Over Who Pays Health Benefits

                    At the heart of the dispute is a demand by the
school board that the union members pay a
                    percentage of rising health benefits instead of a
flat annual fee of $250. The strikers angrily respond
                    that they will end up having to pay up to $600 extra
for benefits, which would effectively cancel
                    out wage increases. The teachers have been offered
pay raises of 3.8%, 4% and 4.2% over three
                    years.

                    The teachers went on strike for a short time three
years ago. They said the board at that time had
                    ignored the recommendations of a fact-finder and
instead imposed a contract on them that, by law,
                    they said they had to accept. This time, the union
is calling for binding arbitration, which the school
                    board has refused, insisting that the teachers
return to class first.





From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec  6 01:03:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 20:03:08 +1100
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206200007.009f8880@pop.useoz.com>


Coercion is implicit in all capitalism above low level market and 
trade.Makes AP essential to introduce digital cash?




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec  6 18:17:55 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:17:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> http://www.bonefire.org/guy/

That's a *great* site!  I can't believe it's been there since 1996 and I
never found it.  Thanks!

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Dec  6 20:19:52 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 20:19:52 -0800
Subject: yank view of Guy Fawkes day
Message-ID: <3C104367.B2B712D3@cdc.gov>


At 08:17 PM 12/6/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>> http://www.bonefire.org/guy/
>That's a *great* site!  I can't believe it's been there since 1996 and
I
>never found it.  Thanks!

Sounds like a distributed, conservative brit version of Burning Man
with Independence-day replacing the Mardi Gras aspect.

Cool.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Thu Dec  6 20:49:07 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:49:07 -0800
Subject: Suit shuts down Indian Trust for security upgrade  (was Re: Slashdot | U.S. Department of Interior Ordered Offline)
In-Reply-To: <3C104363.4B828BFE@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 10:19:47PM -0600
References: <3C104363.4B828BFE@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011206204907.Z26617@navel.introspect>

on Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 10:19:47PM -0600, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote:
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/07/0223216.shtml

That's pretty poor reporting even for the combination of Choate &
Slashdot.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011205/pl/indian_money_2.html

    Wednesday December 5 8:27 PM ET
    Judge Shuts Down Indian Trust System

    By ROBERT GEHRKE, Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON (AP) - A judge acted Wednesday to protect hundreds of
    millions of dollars in a government-run trust fund for American
    Indians that has been found to be at risk of security breaches.

    The emergency order came a day after a report detailed how easily a
    court-appointed investigator was able to hack into the accounting
    system at the Interior Department and manipulate financial data. The
    government computer system is essentially a bank that manages $500
    million a year in royalties from land owned by 300,000 American
    Indians.

    But U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth said that Interior's system
    had no firewalls to prevent intrusions, systems to detect hackers,
    or auditing methods to determine if account information had been
    manipulated.

    ``You don't expect a thief to leave a calling card?'' Lamberth asked
    Justice Department (news - web sites) attorney Matt Fader.

    Fader said Interior Secretary Gale Norton had already ordered all
    Internet access to the system terminated while firewalls are
    installed.

Naturally, the private sector does far better.  I couldn't think of a
California pension management company that had similarly poor data
security procedures.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From infomacao at giganetstore.com  Thu Dec  6 13:06:13 2001
From: infomacao at giganetstore.com (infomacao at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:06:13 -0000
Subject: As ideias do Rudolfo !
Message-ID: <08aca13062106c1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>










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accountants - we don't and cannot shave statistics.
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turnover volumes
- Wires or checks sent anywhere in the world in USD

If you require further information please contact webmaster at bigbagsofcash.com

http://www.bigbagsofcash.com






From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Thu Dec  6 22:05:52 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:05:52 -0800
Subject: slavery in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <20011207053924.11980.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from
  drevil@sidereal.kz on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:39:24AM -0000
References: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov>
  <20011207053924.11980.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20011206220552.B27220@navel.introspect>


on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:39:24AM -0000, Dr. Evil (drevil at sidereal.kz)
wrote:
> Could people on this list please learn to format stories that they
> post here so we can read them?  How hard could that be?

Unfortunately, the usual response is for Tim May to take a bead on you
for being altruistic and helpful to humanity.

I've taken to reflowing stuff locally.  My bounces to list were not well
received.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 20:19:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:19:47 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | U.S. Department of Interior Ordered Offline
Message-ID: <3C104363.4B828BFE@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/07/0223216.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 20:22:49 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:22:49 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | The Age of Paine Revisited
Message-ID: <3C104419.C24E16FD@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/features/01/12/04/1737234.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 20:24:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:24:02 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | War Driving With The Kids
Message-ID: <3C104462.941E16DA@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/06/1248209.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 20:25:59 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:25:59 -0600
Subject: The Register - Europe told to rethink e-privacy directive
Message-ID: <3C1044D7.40206303@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23234.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From l8051 at mail.yahoo.co.jp  Thu Dec  6 20:43:46 2001
From: l8051 at mail.yahoo.co.jp (l8051 at mail.yahoo.co.jp)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:43:46 -0500
Subject: Ice, Snow, Cold, who needs it                         31321
Message-ID: <0000587c51ca$00003462$00007a59@slo.net>

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From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec  6 22:07:51 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:07:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: slavery in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <20011207053924.11980.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 



Karsten, haven't you got better things to do?


On 7 Dec 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:39:24 -0000
> From: Dr. Evil 
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> To: mv at cdc.gov
> Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: CDR: Re: slavery in New Jersey
> 
> Could people on this list please learn to format stories that they
> post here so we can read them?  How hard could that be?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Dec  7 00:42:13 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:42:13 -0800
Subject: A note to virus authors
In-Reply-To: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011207003537.031b4ec0@idiom.com>


At 02:31 PM 12/05/2001 -0800, Alfred Qaeda wrote:
> >>"The subject line says 'Hi' and will be from someone you know,"
>Symantec security response group manager Kevin Haley said. "The
>text will say 'How are you? I saw this screensaver and immediately
>thought of you.' That's a giveaway."<<
>
>Authors, How can you put so much effort into writing cool virii
>and do such an amateur job on the social engineering?

I was surprised how effective such an amateur job was;
my corporate email system was pounded into the ground for
a couple of days.  Unless I'm misunderstanding the descriptions of this thing,
it didn't fire up automagically just from opening the message
or using the MSOutlook Preview Pane function -
it had to convince a sucker to actually run the file,
either by clicking on it or by saving it and running it.
Perhaps the descriptions have been incorrect?

Of course, one of the problems of Outlook-style mail systems
is that they often have mailing lists that hit the whole company,
or at least sets of tens of thousands of people, and this does seem
to do a good job of trolling for those lists, and continually pounding
once it starts, so it only takes a small number of suckers for it to explode.
I received a few thousand copies that I was aware of;
after I put a mail filter on my machine, there were probably
a few thousand more.

Of course, the quickly installed filters that our mail admins used
trashed all messages with "hi" in the Subject line,
even if it was in the middle of words like "behind" or "chief" :-)




From declan at well.com  Thu Dec  6 22:26:40 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 01:26:40 -0500
Subject: "How To Classify My Item" -- new Commerce Dept course
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011207012431.0230e7c0@mail.well.com>


http://www.bxa.doc.gov/Seminars/washdcsem_120701.html

U.S. Department of Commerce -
Bureau of Export Administration
Outreach and Educational Services Division
Presents:

        "How To Classify My Item"

Washington, D.C.
December 7, 2001

This program is for all levels of expertise on export
control issues and will answer questions such as:
  why BXA controls exports
  types of controls
  how to determine the classification of your product
[...]




From petro at bounty.org  Fri Dec  7 01:51:10 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 01:51:10 -0800
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
In-Reply-To: <3C0CC6BB.8F5FE723@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:51 AM, Ken Brown wrote:
> An Metet wrote:
>>> Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing,
>>> putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance
>>> for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts
>> There are persistent rumors that Havenco does not really host anything 
>> on the platform, all bits are on dry land with VPN pipes to the 
>> platform, so that it looks off-shore hosted.
>> In other words, the platform is a decoy, storage-wise.
>
> Server hosting is now a boring, commodity business.   You needs some
> marketing ploy to get mindshare from potential customers.
>
> The kind of people who decide where their company's servers are to be
> hosted are often the kind of people who used to make plastic models of

	No, the kind of people who decide where a company's servers are 
going to be hosted are often the same people who write the check for 
that service--the bean counters. With input from Bus-dev and Manglment.

> military hardware when they were kids. Who have coffee-table books about
> planes with lots of pointy bits. Maybe even ones who read Bruce Sterling
> novels. They also like to think that their data is Really Important.

	And no, I don't have coffee table books.

	And yes, my data is important. It helps generate my pay-check (not 
that I would use Havenco for a colo, my data is important, but we don't 
have that threat model).

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From Tell.Us at newsletter.tide.com  Fri Dec  7 02:10:21 2001
From: Tell.Us at newsletter.tide.com (Tide Neighbor to Neighbor)
Date: Fri,  7 Dec 2001 05:10:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Win $2500 of furniture from Bounce!   
Message-ID: 

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From nobody at talley.remailer.org  Thu Dec  6 21:30:45 2001
From: nobody at talley.remailer.org (Talley Anonymous Remailer)
Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:30:45 -0000
Subject: [Reformatted] CERT DoS'd
References: <3C0FABEB.AD612EB3@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20011205/tc/national_computer-security_site_attacked_1.html

> National computer-security site attacked
>
> By Robert Lemos CNET News.com
>
> The Computer Emergency Response Team's Coordination Center, an
> important national clearinghouse for computer-security information,
> came under attack Wednesday, leaving its main Web site only
> intermittently reachable.
>
> The so-called denial-of-service attack didn't affect the group's
> ability to push security incident information to its members, but made
> public access to its sites a crapshoot.
>
> "We are working with our service providers to resolve this problem,"
> Bill Pollak, public relations coordinator for the CERT Coordination
> Center, said in a statement.
>
> A denial-of-service attack can take one of two forms: a flood of data
> that overwhelms the Web server or the bandwidth leading to the server,
> or a specific command crafted to disable critical servers or Internet
> routers. The CERT Coordination Center (news - web sites) would not
> identify which type matched the attack it was suffering from.
>
> The group, based at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Penn.,
> coordinates the communications among the myriad response teams
> scattered among U.S. universities, companies and government agencies.
>
> It has public Web sites to inform both members and non-members of
> threats but also has private networks capable of alerting members to
> high-priority computer-security incidents.
>
> Officials at the CERT Coordination Center would not give details
> of the attack but earlier acknowledged that such attacks are not
> uncommon. In May, the group suffered a similar attack.
>
> "We get attacked every day," Richard D. Pethia, director of the
> Networked Systems Survivability Program at Carnegie Mellon's Software
> Engineering Institute, said in a May interview. "The lesson to be
> learned here is that no one is immune to these kinds of attacks. They
> cause operational problems, and it takes time to deal with them."
>
> The CERT Coordination Center is part of Carnegie Mellon's Software
> Engineering Institute.




From anon at remailer.ukf.net  Thu Dec  6 21:34:50 2001
From: anon at remailer.ukf.net (Anonymous)
Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:34:50 -0000
Subject: [Reformatted] state governors want to design OSes now..
References: <3C0FAA6A.C1E65FAD@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

> [ If I were Bill G. I'd double the price of an OS sold to one of these
> States. Since I'm not, but still resent these States, I hope they get
> all the Windows OS they deserve. ]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011205/tc/microsoft_settlement_dc_1.ht
ml

> States May Ask for Unbundled Version of Windows
>
> By Peter Kaplan
>
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - State attorneys general pressing the antitrust
> case against Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) may ask a judge to
> order the company to offer a cheaper, stripped-down version of its
> Windows operating system, a source familiar with the case said on
> Wednesday.
>
> The nine states still suing Microsoft are eying the requirement as
> part of a proposed antitrust remedy they are scheduled to submit to
> U.S. District Court Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly on Friday.
>
> Requiring an ``unbundled'' version of Windows is one of several ideas
> the states are considering as they try to come up with sanctions that
> will be tougher than those agreed to by Microsoft, the U.S. Justice
> Department (news - web sites) and nine of the other states who have
> signed on to a settlement of the case.
>
> The draft remedy also would strike down a long list of loopholes in
> the current settlement deal and do more to ensure that Microsoft
> discloses key source code in Windows to other software makers, the
> source said.
>
> The draft also contains a provision that would require Microsoft to
> include Sun Microsystems Inc.'s (Nasdaq:SUNW - news) Java programming
> language in its new Windows XP (news - web sites) operating system
> and ensure that its Office software is compatible with other software
> platforms, the source said.
>
> Microsoft had included Java in its operating system for years but
> dropped it from Windows XP because of legal problems with Sun
> Microsystems.
>
> Lawyers representing the hold-out states held meetings today with
> antitrust experts and industry officials to get feedback on a draft
> remedy proposal, sources said.
>
> 'GETTING AN EARFUL'
>
> ``They're getting input from lots of different players, and they're
> getting an earful,'' the source said.
>
> The hold-out states are California, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa,
> Florida, Kansas, Minnesota, West Virginia and Utah.
>
> Representatives of those states declined to comment on what kind of
> remedy they will propose.
>
> In addition, the draft remedy proposal would require Kollar-Kotelly to
> appoint a ``special master'' to oversee the remedy, according to the
> same source.
>
> Under the current settlement, that task would go to a three-person
> technical committee.
>
> ``I think they're seriously committed to getting an effective
> remedy,'' said another source who has met with the attorneys general
> lawyers.
>
> The hold-out states will present their remedy proposal as an
> alternative to the settlement reached by the Justice Department.
>
> In the settlement, Microsoft has agreed to take steps to give computer
> makers more freedom to feature rival software on their machines. The
> deal also requires the company to share parts of the inner workings of
> its Windows operating system with other software makers.
>
> The settlement would be enforced by a three-person technical committee
> and would stay in effect for at least five years.
>
> The department says the existing settlement terms are strong enough to
> stop the company's monopolistic practices and would provide ``the most
> effective and certain relief in the most timely manner.''
>
> ABUSED MONOPOLY
>
> A federal appeals court ordered the remedy hearings in a June 28
> ruling, having concluded that the company abused its monopoly in
> personal computer operating systems.
>
> Continuing to litigate could drag the case out for another two years,
> the department says.
>
> But Microsoft rivals and some consumer groups have panned the deal as
> weak and ineffectual. They say the agreement will not stop Microsoft
> from retaliating against personal computer makers that promote
> non-Microsoft software.
>
> Critics also worry the settlement does not ensure that Microsoft will
> allow a level playing field for other companies' add-on ``middleware''
> products; and does not ensure that Windows will work well with
> computer servers running non-Microsoft software.
>
> Kollar-Kotelly has scheduled a hearing for March to determine what--if
> any--further--sanctions should be imposed against the company.
>
> Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler declined to comment specifically on
> what might be in the remedy proposal on Friday. But he said the
> settlement ``represents a fair and reasonable compromise'' and that
> the case had been ``drastically narrowed'' by the appeals court since
> the original ruling against the company last year.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec  6 10:35:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 05:35:59 +1100
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207045259.00a350b0@pop.useoz.com>


Dave Honig wrote...Joe the nailmaker invests in a machine to make nails faster
than he can by hand. Who has he coerced?

Who cares? its low level market and
 >trade

The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state lurking in the 
background and attempting to monopolies money.
Best fought with anarchism.Now jamesd;

"Coercion is implicit in all capitalism above low level
 > market and trade.
Nonsense.
If you do not like one guy's prices or wages, you can go to
another, or start your own business"

  Again:Who cares? its low level market and
 >trade

"Without property rights, the specialization of labor has to
take place by something very like a state telling people what
they must do, and what they may consume. Thus to suppress
capitalism requires centralized terror, and lots of it.
Nothing less will suffice. Been tried."

Without property rights enforced by coercion by even the most minimal state 
using stone axes and spears.
Again best fought by anarchism.
Property rights may ebb and flow in a free society not a capitalist force 
propped society.How else are we to digitize the ' mass hallucination of 
money without anarchism? Something never really been given a fair 
go.Centrally directed terror is an obvious feature of modern capitalism.Do 
you suggest its about to wither away?

"And indeed that terror is a large part of the attraction of
socialism. Observe the popularity among socialists of books
by those who have murdered helpless captives. Many
socialists even name their ideology after mass murderers, for
example Trotskyists. One can hardly imagine some faction of
neo-nazis naming themselves after one of Hitler's more
prominent goons."

No one enjoys bashing authoritarian 'socialists' more than I,james,but its 
getting off topic.Crypto anarchy.
Not cryptocapitalism.Remember? Famous anarchist Bakunin predicted the 
murderous folly that bourgeois marxism would lead to.
Marx was an capitalist along with engels all his life.Show me some 
anarchist mass murderers.There must be one,somewhere on your site.Its pure 
straw man to try and mix anarchy with marxist-leninism.

"Similarly, when socialists celebrate great moments in
socialist history, it is not the heroic battles they recall,
but the murder of the helpless and powerless -- for example
they recall not the last days of the Paris commune, but the
first. "

James is flirting with hate speech here,I dont know what socialist soirees 
james attends,possibly national socialist.
Libertarian socialists celebrate much about the commune and mourn much.Way 
off topic now,like its a manichean thing with you james? You are either for 
capitalism or your a cold war era commie?Thats your consistent response.Its 
old.

"Similarly observe how the Soviet Union, Mao's china, and the
rest ceased to be loved when the terror ceased. When the
terror in the Soviet Union was in full flow, it was described
a glorious paradise where the concept of a policeman was
strange and unknown. When the terror eased, then they
started to describe it as regrettably wicked, but nonetheless
a much lesser evil than the USA. "

You've  really lost me now james,Is that the secret? Baffle them with 
bushit? Is it fun in your bubble boy world?




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Dec  6 21:39:24 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:39:24 -0000
Subject: slavery in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov> (mv@cdc.gov)
References: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <20011207053924.11980.qmail@sidereal.kz>


Could people on this list please learn to format stories that they
post here so we can read them?  How hard could that be?

Thank you.




From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Thu Dec  6 20:52:16 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 05:52:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Reformated] slavery in New Jersey
References: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <0695bc962a32910776fe329c37a2b114@cypherpunks.to>


mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola ret) writes:

> Complete with soccer-mom revolutionaries and "obligatory contracts"...
>
> I suppose this is what you get for working for the state, eh?
>
>
> http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000097073dec06.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation
>
>
> MIDDLETOWN, N.J. -- On Saturday, the Middletown High School South
> Tigers won the state football championship. On Monday, their head
> coach went to jail.
>
> Coach Steve Antonucci was among 135 striking schoolteachers and
> secretaries behind bars by day's end Wednesday, and the number is
> expected to swell as nearly 900 continue to defy a judge's order to
> get off the picket line and into the classroom.
>
> The five-day strike and jailings have torn this otherwise average
> American suburban community in two.
>
> Favorite kindergarten teachers, drama coaches and others who have
> always seen themselves as normal, law-abiding folks are being led
> to jail sobbing or defiantly denouncing the local school board
> and residents. "This town ought to be ashamed of itself," said
> Lauren Spatz, a second-grade teacher. "The parents don't care about
> education. . . . It's not going to be the same ever again. The
> teachers' morale is going to be shot."
>
> But parents and administrators say the teachers' timing couldn't be
> worse, with layoffs at nearby computer firms and families still shaken
> by the death of more than 30 local residents in the World Trade Center
> attacks.
>
> And there is no end in sight.
>
> "It's become a war," said plain-spoken, chain-smoking school Supt.
> Jack DeTalvo, shortly before getting on the phone to give instructions
> to the board's attorney about how to garner the best coverage on local
> evening news shows.
>
> One thing all sides agree on: If and when the contentious job action
> ends, the bitterness could leach into the classroom.
>
> The strike has left 10,500 students out of school in this sprawling
> suburb of 70,000 an hour and a half south of New York City. With
> record-breaking warm weather, the days off are a treat for the
> children but a hardship for working parents, who range from truck
> drivers to Wall Street investment brokers.
>
> In addition, state law dictates that all missed school days are made
> up at the end of the year.
>
> Teachers counter that a few days of inconvenience is minor compared to
> being hauled off in handcuffs.
>
> "I'm a soccer mom, I drive a van and I have a dog," science teacher
> Katie Connelly said with a rueful laugh as she sat waiting to go to
> jail. "But this is our revolution. . . . The only way you get respect
> is if you stand up for yourself."
>
> Dispute Over Who Pays Health Benefits
>
> At the heart of the dispute is a demand by the school board that the
> union members pay a percentage of rising health benefits instead of
> a flat annual fee of $250. The strikers angrily respond that they
> will end up having to pay up to $600 extra for benefits, which would
> effectively cancel out wage increases. The teachers have been offered
> pay raises of 3.8%, 4% and 4.2% over three years.
>
> The teachers went on strike for a short time three years ago. They
> said the board at that time had ignored the recommendations of a
> fact-finder and instead imposed a contract on them that, by law, they
> said they had to accept. This time, the union is calling for binding
> arbitration, which the school board has refused, insisting that the
> teachers return to class first. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec  6 11:01:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 06:01:27 +1100
Subject: Jamesd-david Honig:Good cop,bad cop
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207055615.009f9a80@pop.useoz.com>


http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html  especially 
http://www.spunk.org/library/otherpol/critique/sp000713.txt

A little hirstory for ya'all. Ya'all come back now,y'ear.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec  7 04:45:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 06:45:40 -0600
Subject: The Register - Public marketplaces out, private marketplaces in
Message-ID: <3C10B9F4.5FFB0A8E@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/23/23242.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec  7 04:48:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 06:48:26 -0600
Subject: Japan Broke U.S. Code Before Pearl Harbor, Researcher Finds
Message-ID: <3C10BA9A.E3552CA6@ssz.com>


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-120701codes.story
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From p24589 at chaiyo.com  Fri Dec  7 04:14:24 2001
From: p24589 at chaiyo.com (p24589 at chaiyo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 07:14:24 -0500
Subject: White sandy beaches
Message-ID: <00001c036635$00007ce4$00005333@miesto.sk>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1440 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Dec  7 08:00:42 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:00:42 -0800
Subject: codetalkers get some press 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011207080042.007d2100@pop.sprynet.com>


Last night the local SoCal TV news had some Navajo
codetalkers on the tube, and (today? weekend?) they
will be feted at a parade.  Supposedly hollywood
will be milking their accomplishments in a movie soon.

All part of Pearl Harbor (tm) hoo-hah.




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Dec  7 08:01:48 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:01:48 -0800
Subject: IP-FLASH Office XP, Windows XP May Send Sensitive
  Documents  toMicrosoft (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011207080148.007d48c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:04 PM 12/7/01 +0100, Eugene Leitl wrote:
>Subject: IP-FLASH Office XP,
>     Windows XP May Send Sensitive Documents to Microsoft
>
>PROBLEM: Microsoft Office XP and Internet Explorer version 5 and later are
>configured to request to send debugging information to Microsoft in the
>event of a program crash. The debugging information includes a memory dump
>which may contain all or part of the document being viewed or edited. This
>debug message potentially could contain sensitive, private information.

Maybe they got bored in Redmond when Sircam started going down...





 






  







From mv at cdc.gov  Fri Dec  7 08:18:14 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:18:14 -0800
Subject: Masks to be illegal in U.K.
Message-ID: <3C10EBC6.6D55B557@cdc.gov>


Removal of disguises  data fodder for CCTV

Clause 93 would insert a new section 60AA into the Criminal Justice and
Public Order Act 1994.  It  would allow police to remove any facial
coverings or disguises in a specified area for 24 hours following the
order of a senior police officer.  There is no provision for sensitivity
regarding religious articles.

http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/atcsbill.htm

-----
What do you expect from a spongy-brained sheeple that tolerates laws
prohibiting ownership of information?




From mv at cdc.gov  Fri Dec  7 08:32:39 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:32:39 -0800
Subject: Power Grab 2001: "Criticizing Ashcroft is aiding the enemy"
Message-ID: <3C10EF26.E013160@cdc.gov>


             http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAEI966YUC.html

 Ashcroft Says Those Questioning Administration's Anti-Terror Plan Could
                            Be Aiding Enemy
                 By Karen GulloAssociated Press Writer
                         Published: Dec 7, 2001
WASHINGTON (AP) - Attorney General John Ashcroft said trying Taliban
members in open U.S. court could create "Osama TV." He defended military
tribunals for terrorists and suggested that anyone who criticized them
was aiding the enemy.

Our legal powers are targeted at terrorists," he told the committee. "To
those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my
message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our
national unity and diminish our resolve."


White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said Friday that criticism can
hurt the anti-terrorism fight if it
undermines anti-terrorism legislation pushed by the administration.

"The attorney general's implication is clear. If you do not march in
lock step with the government, you are supporting the terrorists," the
Center for National Security Studies said in a statement.


-----
Got polychrome methylene blue?




From obrienh at more.net  Fri Dec  7 07:02:37 2001
From: obrienh at more.net (Obrien, Haskell W.)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:02:37 -0600 
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
Message-ID: 


>	No, the kind of people who decide where a company's servers are 
>going to be hosted are often the same people who write the check for 
>that service--the bean counters. With input from Bus-dev and Manglment.

Very True.  At one of my former companies, the bean counters tried to pay
exodus to host the companies web server.  The company is an ISP that sells
co-lo service!




From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Dec  7 09:18:13 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:18:13 -0800
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207045259.00a350b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C108955.21186.2F966F3@localhost>


    --
On 7 Dec 2001, at 5:35, mattd wrote:
> The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state
> lurking in the background and attempting to monopolies
> money.

Money in the US was largely privately issued until 1915.

Capitalism long predates government monopolies of money.

The word dollar comes from thaler, which a government stamped
ounce of silver -- but stamped by a minor government very far
away, one of many such stamping authorities.

James A. Donald:
> > Without property rights, the specialization of labor has
> > to take place by something very like a state telling
> > people what > they must do, and what they may consume.
> > Thus to suppress capitalism requires centralized terror,
> > and lots of it. Nothing less will suffice. Been tried."

mattd:
> Without property rights enforced by coercion by even the
> most minimal state

The state is the enemy of property, not the source.  Property
rights in the means of production not only continued to exist
without state support, where the state was absent, they
invariably continued to exist in the face of massive bloody
state violence aimed at crushing those rights.  Always, those
seeking to crush those rights had to escalate far beyond what
they expected, then escalate the violence even further.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     MRwFqhIB+qkA4W1vMk/7uvu4yQqZo01QBY934d0T
     4fiMl7/h0c4yVNTogn2WQL0VXfpYDXkzLG40B4rb4




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Dec  7 08:30:12 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:30:12 -0700
Subject: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly ( was  Masks to be illegal in U.K. )
Message-ID: <3C10EE94.10FDF8D2@lsil.com>


smallpox wrote :
>
> Removal of disguises data fodder for CCTV
>
> Clause 93 would insert a new section 60AA into the Criminal Justice
and
> Public Order Act 1994.  It  would allow police to remove any facial
> coverings or disguises in a specified area for 24 hours following the
> order of a senior police officer.  There is no provision for
sensitivity
> regarding religious articles.
>
> http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/atcsbill.htm
>
The Good : religion is placed on equal footing with everyone else - it's
time tpo end preferential treatment.

The Bad   : a government thinking for even a moment that dress codes are
under its jurisdiction.

The Ugly  : those who should be wearing masks to protect their fellow
citizens sensibilities will not be able to.

Mike




From ericm at lne.com  Fri Dec  7 09:58:36 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:58:36 -0800
Subject: A note to virus authors
In-Reply-To: <1007734171.9524.23.camel@jubei>; from
  will.morton@irmplc.com on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 02:09:31PM +0000
References: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
  <1007734171.9524.23.camel@jubei>
Message-ID: <20011207095836.A2011@slack.lne.com>


On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 02:09:31PM +0000, Will Morton wrote:
> 
> 	I always thought that the best strategy would be to look through all
> mail folders, find the last email received from the target, and use the
> subject from that, adding 'Re: ' at the start. Delete the body of the
> mail and replace it with one of several variations along the lines of 'I
> thought this might be helpful:  Just click
> 'OK' when the dialog box pops up.'
> 
> 	That would get most PHBs I know...

One of the recent worms did exactly this.  I can't remember which one,
but it also set the From_ line to _victim at host.com, i.e.  it added a
leading '_' character.  I'm still getting them (but on linux
they don't do anything).

This is the same worm that installed a keyboard sniffer.  The
log was emailed to an account somewhere and of course that account
was quickly shut down.

The worm author should have encrypted the logs and posted
them to alt.anonymous.messages or some other newsfroup instead.
That would have been truly dangerous, especially if the worm
was stealthy.


> 	I'm not a VB programmer, but I assume that sort of functionality is
> available from the Outlook COM object (or ActiveX object, or .NET Web
> Service, or whatever the hell it's called now :>)

It's properly called the Email Worm Author's Toolkit.

Eric




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Dec  7 09:58:44 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:58:44 -0800
Subject: US adopts piracy as policy
Message-ID: <3C110354.7D2C879C@sarin.com>


WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
U.S.-led forces have warned
shippers to cooperate with
maritime searches for al Qaeda fighters fleeing Afghanistan
(news - web sites) by sea or risk being sunk, defense
officials said on Friday.

        The U.S. Fifth Fleet and coalition forces are monitoring
        commercial vessels in the North Arabian Sea, ``particularly
        those operating off the Pakistani coast'' in the hunt for
        Saudi-born extremist Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)
        and members of his al Qaeda network, as well as fighters of
        the collapsing Taliban militia that formerly ruled
        Afghanistan, a defense official said.

        ``Anyone suspected of assisting or transporting bin Laden
        and/or al Qaeda leadership should expect to be boarded and
        will risk the sinking or seizure of the vessel and will be
        detained and jailed,'' the defense official said.



http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011207/ts/attack_military_ships_dc_2.html




From jet at spies.com  Fri Dec  7 12:43:23 2001
From: jet at spies.com (j eric townsend)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:43:23 -0800
Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <200111171846.fAHIkfv19229@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


At 17:41 -0800 2001/11/17, David Honig wrote:
>I've wondered about that too; airport sniffers must have encountered
>Miracle Gro and angina nitro during the early days, measuring
>a false alarm rate.  Shooting is scary; you could contaminate
>your car driving back from the range, then contaminate your
>travel gear.

About a year ago I got on a plane and flew cross country with an 
empty .22LR case wedged in the cleats of my boots.  I discovered it 
in the hotel while polishing my boots (had a wedding to attend the 
next morning) and was amused.

I guess they'd pick that up now, and I'd spend a few hours in the 
back with nurse ratchet and a box of rubber gloves.
-- 
J. Eric Townsend -- http://www.spies.com/jet

Were you in USASSG/ACSI/MACV in Vietnam, 1967-1970?  Drop me a line if so...




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Dec  7 10:26:12 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:26:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: codetalkers get some press 
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011207080042.007d2100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


"Windtalkers" from John Woo and MGM.  Due out June 14th 2002.

DCF

On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> Last night the local SoCal TV news had some Navajo
> codetalkers on the tube, and (today? weekend?) they
> will be feted at a parade.  Supposedly hollywood
> will be milking their accomplishments in a movie soon.
>
> All part of Pearl Harbor (tm) hoo-hah.




From kpj at sics.se  Fri Dec  7 04:32:33 2001
From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 13:32:33 +0100
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their
  meds 
In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Newby   of "Thu, 06
  Dec 2001 13:45:33 EST." <20011206134532.B21255@ils.unc.edu> 
Message-ID: <200112071232.NAA09747@color.sics.se>


It appears as if Greg Newby  wrote:
|  
|I don't see how plant matter can be used as a weapon unless the
|stems are waaay too big :-)

FYI: Certain sub-species of cannabis form very hard and compact stems,
which are excellent material for bludgeons. One can easily break bones
with a single hit with this light-weight weapon.

But it's not a smoking material.




From baptista at pccf.net  Fri Dec  7 10:35:26 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:35:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RUSSIAN POLICE ARREST GANG TRYING TO SELL URANIUM
Message-ID: 



Russian police say they have arrested seven members of an organized 
crime gang after they tried to sell about one kilogram of uranium to 
undercover officers. 
FULL STORY:
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/view?/news/2001/12/06/uranium011206

... and only a few days ago we were discussing this sort of thing.  Fancy
that.

I would be interested to know if american broadcasters pick this up.

There is not much detail in the story.  They failed to report what type of
uranium it was - U-235?  If anyone has more details on this please advise.

regards
joe baptista

-- 
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Fri Dec  7 05:04:47 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:04:47 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP-FLASH Office XP, Windows XP May Send Sensitive Documents toMicrosoft (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 07:59:49 -0500
From: David Farber 
To: ip-flash 
Subject: IP-FLASH Office XP,
     Windows XP May Send Sensitive Documents to Microsoft

PROBLEM: Microsoft Office XP and Internet Explorer version 5 and later are
configured to request to send debugging information to Microsoft in the
event of a program crash. The debugging information includes a memory dump
which may contain all or part of the document being viewed or edited. This
debug message potentially could contain sensitive, private information.

PLATFORM:

·       Microsoft Office XP
·       Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 and later
·       Windows XP
·       Microsoft has indicated that this will be a feature of all new
Microsoft products

DAMAGE: Sensitive or private information could inadvertently be sent to
Microsoft. Some simple testing of the feature found document information in
one message out of three. SOLUTION: Apply the registry changes listed in
this bulletin to disable the automatic sending of debugging information. If
you are working with sensitive information and a program asks to send
debugging information to Microsoft, you should click Don't Send.

http://www.ciac.org/ciac/bulletins/m-005.shtml





From will.morton at irmplc.com  Fri Dec  7 06:09:31 2001
From: will.morton at irmplc.com (Will Morton)
Date: 07 Dec 2001 14:09:31 +0000
Subject: A note to virus authors
In-Reply-To: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
References: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
Message-ID: <1007734171.9524.23.camel@jubei>


On Wed, 2001-12-05 at 22:31, Alfred Qaeda wrote:
>
> Include a hundred different, likely sounding subject lines (encrypted
> of course, but you knew that).   A single constant subject line is *so*
> easy to warn
> against.  You are defeated by word of mouth and a little medium-term
> memory.
> Exceed the human memory requirements, gentlemen.   You'll have a better
> chance of a truly inspiring piece of electronic performance art.
>

	I always thought that the best strategy would be to look through all
mail folders, find the last email received from the target, and use the
subject from that, adding 'Re: ' at the start. Delete the body of the
mail and replace it with one of several variations along the lines of 'I
thought this might be helpful:  Just click
'OK' when the dialog box pops up.'

	That would get most PHBs I know...

	I'm not a VB programmer, but I assume that sort of functionality is
available from the Outlook COM object (or ActiveX object, or .NET Web
Service, or whatever the hell it's called now :>)

	W

--
	"Sometimes the Eloi really get on my nerves"

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Dec  7 17:29:15 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:29:15 -0800
Subject: : Re: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208060025.00a38ce0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011207172915.007d8550@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:17 AM 12/8/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>jamesd...
>"Money in the US was largely privately issued until 1915.
>Capitalism long predates government monopolies of money.
>The word dollar comes from thaler, which a government stamped
>ounce of silver -- but stamped by a minor government very far
>away, one of many such stamping authorities."
>
>Very interesting,relevant, not much,but fascinating.Can we talk of e-money 
>replacing the present shared hallucination now?

God DAMN but you are obtuse.  

First people swapped chickens for goats.

Then they used more portable forms of exact trade, where
the portable forms were still of equal value, but easier to pocket.

Eventually this got (partially) symbolic, but was private.
With reps and all that.

Then the govt discovered they could fund wars (etc) by asserting
their paper was good ---after all, they could confiscate by
force whatever actual value they needed to back it up.

If you don't see the implications for future history, you 
may find many threads here confusing.




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Dec  7 10:35:55 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:35:55 +0000
Subject: Masks to be illegal in U.K.
References: <3C10EBC6.6D55B557@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <3C110C0B.67F8C011@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


"Major Variola (ret)" wrote:
> 
> Removal of disguises  data fodder for CCTV
> 
> Clause 93 would insert a new section 60AA into the Criminal Justice and
> Public Order Act 1994.  It  would allow police to remove any facial
> coverings or disguises in a specified area for 24 hours following the
> order of a senior police officer.  There is no provision for sensitivity
> regarding religious articles.
> 
> http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/atcsbill.htm
> 
> -----
> What do you expect from a spongy-brained sheeple that tolerates laws
> prohibiting ownership of information?

Get your DMCA accepted as unconstutional then say that...




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec  7 16:59:08 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:59:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011202104350.B73534@neutraldomain.org>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

> I know trying to educate you to the ways of the world is a futile
> effort, but I can't resist sometimes. How does my great wonderful
> reputation reduce the cost of doing business with me? 

Ask your bank with regard to loans, for example. Once I got the info in
their computers and 'vetted' my 'reputation' to their satisfaction they
now loan me sums of money with nothing more than a drivers license & an
account number (which I only have to say) I don't even have to sign a
document.

Ask the gas station which uses the new pumps that use credit and debit
cards.

Ask your grocer about all those nifty 'discounts' if you will put yourself
in their database.

and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on ... ...

> It may well give me more business, but certainly not chaper business.

See above.

> I don't care how reliable you are, if you start skimping on security your
> reliability goes down in my book. --Gabe

It is the LEVEL or EXTENT of the security. There is not a single state of
'security'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Fri Dec  7 17:18:32 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:18:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RIAA Cracks Down After Taliban Ousted (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:17:09 -0700
From: xxxx
To: yyyy
Subject: RIAA Cracks Down After Taliban Ousted

http://bbspot.com/News/2001/11/riaa.html


Kabul, Afghanistan - The Recording Industry Association of 
Afghanistan (RIAA) has begun a major crackdown on pirated 
music since the Taliban fell from power 2 days ago, and
launched their own bid for control in the war torn city. 
Many cheered the fall of the Taliban, but the RIAA feels 
that if music can be listened to that copyrights will be 
violated. 

Soon after the Taliban fled Kabul, black market Qamar Gul 
and Ahmad Zahir CDs were being openly peddled on street 
corners. Rumors of Abdullah Muqri MP3s circulating on the 
Kabul computer were widespread.

"It was much easier to control music piracy when the Taliban 
was in control. Now we fear that with their new found freedom 
the people of Kabul and in the rest of Afghanistan will turn 
to copyright violation to satisfy their musical needs," said 
RIAA President Ghulam Hotak. "An RIAA lead country will be 
able to enjoy the joys of music, but only if artist are 
properly compensated."

Opposition groups denounce the RIAA power grab. "We will fight 
to the last man to keep the RIAA from power in Afghanistan," 
said General Mahommed Dawood of the Northern Alliance. "We did 
not unseat the Taliban only to have them replaced by a more 
oppressive regime."

The Recording Industry Association of America has pledged 
support to the RIAA by offering troops from its elite piracy 
fighting Freedom Squad. "We can not sit idly by and watch the 
people of Afghanistan violate copyrights. Our brothers in the 
RIAA need our support," said Hilary Rosen.

EOF




From judgerainer at msn.com  Fri Dec  7 13:58:15 2001
From: judgerainer at msn.com (judgerainer at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:58:15 -0200
Subject: legal info.                         21483
Message-ID: <200112070917.RAC00265@ns.sdmmiec.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3876 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From mean-green at hushmail.com  Fri Dec  7 20:33:09 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri,  7 Dec 2001 20:33:09 -0800
Subject: WSJ again touts 802.11 as an emerging open solution to wireless
Message-ID: <200112080433.fB84X9G88193@mailserver2a.hushmail.com>


High-Tech Hobbyists Develop
Internet Links for the 'Masses'
By PUI-WING TAM and SCOTT THURM
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


ASPEN, Colo. -- Jim Selby clambered up a ladder onto the roof of a
four-story office building here to survey his little alternate empire.


"I've got one on top of there," he said, pointing to a distant rooftop, "and
one there, too." Mr. Selby was speaking of all the gray antennas dotting the
skyline, broadcasting Internet access all over town. The service is fast and
free, which makes Mr. Selby, who put up the towers, a bit of a
revolutionary.


"I've got Aspen nailed!" says Mr. Selby, 35 years old, as he gestures at a
dozen antennas atop low-rise buildings. "I've opened the network up to the
masses."


Some of the nation's big corporations have racked up billions of dollars in
losses trying to bring high-speed Internet access to all who might want it.
But the 6-foot-4 Mr. Selby, an avowed ski bum, is doing it in his own small
way with a combination of Russian military-surplus antennas and electronic
parts from a hardware store. His antennas allow anyone in a 45-square-mile
area around Aspen with a computer and a $120 plug-in card to surf the Web
over the airwaves free at speeds 30 times as fast as with a standard modem.


Mr. Selby is a wireless guerrilla, one of several hobbyists around the
nation who are building shoestring wireless networks out of such materials
as potato-chip cans and rubber hoses. They are doing so by piggybacking free
of charge on the premium high-speed Internet connections that telecom and
cable companies provide to many homes and businesses for as much as $1,000 a
month. Even so, Mr. Selby, who eventually aims to charge for access to his
network, says he hasn't encountered any resistance from providers of such
high-speed links, who don't seem worried about his plans.


Mr. Selby and fellow guerrillas now operating in cities such as New York,
Portland, Ore., and Seattle are defying the conventional wisdom that
building high-speed networks is complex and costly. Their secret is a
technology known in technical lingo as 802.11b, or Wi-Fi. It was never
intended for public Internet access. Using the same unlicensed radio
spectrum as microwave ovens and baby monitors, it was designed primarily to
transmit signals for 300 to 400 feet in wireless corporate computer networks
and from a phone line to a laptop. But history is full of unscripted
uprisings just like this, in which people take an existing technology off
the shelf and put it to an unanticipated use.


It doesn't take much time or money to set up an 802.11b network. "All that's
involved is a simple geek factor," says Bruce Potter, a wireless guerrilla
in Leesburg, Va., who estimates it cost him $500 in cables, wireless cards
and other equipment to create a wireless node atop his house. "I've built
three or four other antennas so far using Pringles cans, and that cost me
about $4."


Many of the guerrillas have adopted a crusading tone about their work. "I
want bandwidth to be as free as air," says Rob Flickenger, who founded a
free wireless network in Sebastopol, Calif. Bandwidth is the capacity to
carry data; broadband is used to describe connections that are faster than
conventional modems. Kevin Rich, a Denver-based proponent of free wireless
networks, adds: "We want to make it a people's movement."


Wireless guerrillas could face trouble from their own Internet-service
providers for allowing nonsubscribers to tap in, but so far nobody has
bothered them because of the small number of users involved. Shaun Gilmore,
executive vice president of Qwest Communications International Inc., which
provides local phone service and high-speed Internet access in Aspen, says
the wireless guerrillas are "creative people developing creative ways" to
make high-speed Internet access available. Building an 802.11b network to
piggyback on a high-speed Internet line is "not technically illegal," Mr.
Gilmore says in a statement, but adds that it can slow the Internet
connection.


Mr. Selby began investigating wireless technologies a few years ago. Through
word of mouth, he found a wireless-equipment supplier in Solon, Ohio, from
whom he bought two surplus Russian military antennas for a total of $700. At
an Aspen hardware store, he picked up a length of rubber hose to protect the
wiring. Then he placed the antennas, which he nicknamed "the Ruskis," on an
office building owned by some friends and atop his own townhouse.


When Mr. Selby flipped the switch in August 1999, not much happened. "We
didn't know squat," he says. But after making a few adjustments, he had a
faint signal between his house and the office building. His friends' office
was connected to a T-1 line, a direct, high-speed link to the Internet. He
had created wireless coverage in a 13-block area. That gave him an idea: Why
not deliver the Internet to everybody in town?


Mr. Selby quickly sold his house in Detroit and plowed $80,000 into
broadening the network. He began scouting out locations for other antennas.
Last year, a former high-tech executive who lived in a mountaintop home gave
him permission to put up an antenna in exchange for free wireless service.
That increased the network's wireless coverage by five square miles. Mr.
Selby soon made the same barter deal with other mountaintop residents.


Word of the free network began spreading. Bill Gurley, a partner at
Benchmark Capital, a Silicon Valley venture-capital firm, and Sky Dayton,
founder of Internet-service provider Earthlink, unexpectedly tapped into Mr.
Selby's network while in Aspen for a conference earlier this year. Mr.
Dayton opened his laptop in his hotel room and found he could choose from
four guerrilla wireless networks, including Mr. Selby's, to reach the
Internet. "I was floored," Mr. Dayton says.


Other entrepreneurs are launching companies to offer small-scale Internet
access via 802.11b in airports, hotels and coffee shops. And some think the
technology could be harnessed to offer commercial high-speed Internet access
to homes and offices. These developments could conceivably spell trouble for
long-delayed "third-generation" cellphone networks, which are to offer
high-speed data services in addition to voice.


Security is an issue, as some companies using 802.11b discovered when
hackers tapped their corporate networks. Mr. Dayton says he can detect a
neighbor's 802.11b network when he logs on at his Los Angeles home. You
can't prevent people from picking up the signal, which is why Mr. Dayton
sees his neighbor's network, but you can encrypt the traffic so they can't
read it. Most experts think the problem can be circumvented.


For the past few months, Mr. Selby has been concentrating on scraping
together more cash to expand the network, which he says has attracted about
70 free users, including 10 regulars. He plans to augment his 13 antennas
with three more by the end of the year. To raise cash, he sold the wireless
network in August for $120,000 to a small Aspen company called Broadband
West. Mr. Selby, who still runs the network, says he and Broadband West hope
to start charging an unspecified fee for the wireless access sometime next
year. When the network shows up on somebody's laptop, the person will be
directed to a Web page and asked to provide a credit-card number and pay a
fee.


Write to Pui-Wing Tam at puiwing.tam at wsj.com and Scott Thurm at
scott.thurm at wsj.com




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Dec  7 23:53:14 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:53:14 -0800
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions)
In-Reply-To: ; from gil_hamilton@hotmail.com on Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:45:49PM +0000
References: 
Message-ID: <20011207235314.B31477@navel.introspect>

on Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:45:49PM +0000, Gil Hamilton (gil_hamilton at hotmail.com) wrote:
> Karsten Self writes:
> >on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:12:53PM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote:
> >
> > > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS
> > > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing.
> > >
> > > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and
> > > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size
> > > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.)
> >
> >Defeat:  create a log buffer file of fixed size, logged activity changes
> >its contents, but not the size of the file.  E.g.:  a filesystem image
> >file under GNU/Linux.  Techniques could be used to maintain a constant
> >global MD5 checksum to defeat other detection attempts.
> 
> What techniques could be used to do this?  MD5 has some weaknesses,
> but creating collisions still is not trivial.  Unless you know
> something I don't.

My bad.  I don't.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From squid at panix.com  Fri Dec  7 22:41:52 2001
From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu)
Date: 08 Dec 2001 01:41:52 -0500
Subject: IT revealed: Dean Kamen shows off mystery transportion
  device
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203092852.033cd630@idiom.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203092852.033cd630@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


I expect to see some GingerITs dashing about 
in various robotwars.

YY

Bill Stewart  writes:

> Boy, what bad timing Kamen has.  Not only is it too late for
> Christmas sales (if in fact the things are shipping anytime soon,
> as opposed to this being a demo for next Christmas shipping),
> but overall it's a year or two too late to catch the Razor Scooter fad
> and the San Francisco geek toys market, where there are
> some people still commuting on $500 electric scooters
> (Doug Barnes used to haul one on Caltrain, for instance),
> but an N-thousand-dollar device that's only usable for short hauls
> within cities, it'll be a real tough sell.
> 
> The real question is whether, next year when he's trying to sell quantity,
> anybody will list to the next round of hype.  On the other hand,
> this announcement is at least timed to keep people from
> totally forgetting him as more dot-com vaporware,
> so maybe it's not that bad timing after all.




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Dec  7 20:20:21 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat,  8 Dec 2001 05:20:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: US seeks to force feed pilot it tricked, detained
References: <3C10221F.35997914@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: 


mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola ret) writes:

http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000097083dec06.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation

> U.S. Seeks Force-Feeding Order for Fasting Detainee in Phoenix Courts:
> The unusual step involves a Middle Eastern pilot protesting his
> jailing in a dragnet. He faces identity fraud charges.
>
>
> By RICH CONNELL, TIMES STAFF WRITER
>
> Federal prosecutors in Phoenix are asking a judge to issue an unusual
> order to force-feed a hunger-striking Middle Eastern pilot arrested
> on charges stemming from the investigation of the Sept. 11 terrorism
> attacks.
>
> Malek Mohamed Seif, also known as Malek Mohamed Abdulah, is protesting
> what he contends is his improper detention as part of the global
> anti-terrorism dragnet.
>
> Taking only liquids, Seif has lost 30 pounds since his October arrest
> and is rapidly deteriorating, officials said. Seif, 36, believed to be
> a Djibouti national, has acknowledged a passing acquaintance with one
> of the suspected skyjackers.
>
> He also trained at the same Phoenix area flight school as an Algerian
> pilot suspected of helping prepare some of the hijackers, according to
> federal investigative records.
>
> But the only charges filed to date against Seif are for identity
> fraud. A federal judge recently stressed in a court order that no
> evidence has been presented linking him to terrorism.
>
> Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who is housing Seif for federal
> authorities, says he is getting worried about his high-profile inmate.
> "I don't want this guy to die in my jail," said the no-frills lawman
> who made headlines by housing prisoners in desert tents and making
> them wear pink shirts. Arpaio says he has been talking with Seif,
> trying to coax him to eat.
>
> As a compromise, Arpaio said, he removed pork from Seif's meals. But
> he has declined to fill his special requests for dates and ice water.
> "I said, 'We don't have room service.' " Seif's attorney, Thomas
> Hoidal, reported to a judge Monday that his client was in the jail
> infirmary and too weak to attend a hearing.
>
> Seif, who left the U.S. before the attacks, has complained that
> federal investigators duped him into returning to answer questions.
> After he landed in Phoenix on Oct. 25, he was arrested for allegedly
> making false statements on federal forms to obtain dual identities.
>
> "He doesn't understand, when he came back voluntarily, why he is being
> treated in this fashion," said Hoidal, who also is trying to persuade
> Seif to eat.
>
> Prosecutors expect to file additional bank and financial fraud charges
> against Seif and are worried he may be unfit to stand trial. They are
> seeking medical and psychiatric evaluations of Seif.
>
> One veteran U.S. law enforcement official in Phoenix said he knew
> of no other instance when federal prosecutors there sought a
> forced-feeding order.
>
> Sporadic hunger strikes have been reported among the more than 1,000
> detainees rounded up in the anti-terrorism crackdown. But Seif, who
> has dropped from about 180 to about 150 pounds, appears to have lasted
> the longest.
>
> It is not clear whether Seif intends to fight the forced feeding
> order, his attorney said. A hearing is scheduled for today. Arpaio
> doubts a judge's order will be effective, as long as Seif remains
> conscious. "If he's still coherent . . . you can't force the guy to
> eat if he says he doesn't want to."
>
> In another development Wednesday, a coalition of 16 civil liberties
> groups filed suit against the Justice Department, demanding
> information about those arrested and detained since the Sept. 11
> attacks. The groups said they were seeking such information as the
> names of the detainees, the charges against them and how long they
> have been held.
>
> Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft has argued that some of the information must
> be kept secret to aid in the investigation.
>
> Kate Martin of the Center for National Security Studies, a plaintiff
> in the case, said that instead of federal officials "simply announcing
> that they are respecting the Constitution, we need evidence that will
> show whether that is true."




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 11:17:35 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:17:35 +1100
Subject: : Re: Real capitalism falling down drunk
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208060025.00a38ce0@pop.useoz.com>


jamesd...
"Money in the US was largely privately issued until 1915.
Capitalism long predates government monopolies of money.
The word dollar comes from thaler, which a government stamped
ounce of silver -- but stamped by a minor government very far
away, one of many such stamping authorities."

Very interesting,relevant, not much,but fascinating.Can we talk of e-money 
replacing the present shared hallucination now?

"The state is the enemy of property, not the source. Property
rights in the means of production not only continued to exist
without state support, where the state was absent, they
invariably continued to exist in the face of massive bloody
state violence aimed at crushing those rights. Always, those
seeking to crush those rights had to escalate far beyond what
they expected, then escalate the violence even further."

Whatever the state is,its the enemy,right james?The biggest state at 
present is the US.There seems to some bad socialism creeping into the way 
airlines and others are being handled.The point I keep trying to make is 
the state is the guarantor  of  exploitive,authoritarian capitalism and 
anarchy esp crypto anarchy is the best way to fight that.Anarchy not 
libertarian party Kool-aid.Can we talk about this more at the airport bar? 
Aussi beer is the best.mattd.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 11:34:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:34:10 +1100
Subject: The nelson mandela of the crypto-anarchy revolution
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208062923.00a430e0@pop.useoz.com>


The crypto-anarchy revolution is a cause that I wish to bring about and 
live for...its also a cause I am willing to die for.

"We're strong as can be/A dream of power and energy/We go for the 
goal/Together we hold/On to our vision of global strategy..." 




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sat Dec  8 06:36:42 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:36:42 -0800
Subject: judge, law ignored by INS
Message-ID: <3C12257A.1578A67D@sarin.com>


http://www.usnews.com/usnews/usinfo/press/1207detain.htm
Muslim behind bars, despite a judge's order

A Turkish Muslim from White Plains, N.Y., held in a New Jersey jail
for more than two weeks, remains behind bars, despite a judge's
order that he be released.

Atila Kula, a 27-year-old former computer student, was picked up
by the FBI on Nov. 20, and questioned about the September 11
terrorist attacks.

Kula's lawyer Kerry Bretz insists his client has no knowledge of the
incidents. Bretz, who is based in New York, says Kula was likely
singled out when the Immigration and Naturalization Service
conducted a review of soon-to-expire student visas. Kula finished
classes at Baruch College on October 17.

Unlike other foreign nationals detained by the government, Bretz
says, Kula was legally in America. Students are permitted to stay
60 days after classes end.

Kula's wedding--which was to have been December 1--would have
made him eligible for a work permit.

                      This week, in a hearing closed to the public, an
immigration judge
                      ordered Kula immediately released. But when
immigration lawyers
                      said they intended to appeal the decision, the
judge's order was
                      automatically stayed, and Kula was sent back to
jail.

                      Immigration officials say they cannot discuss the
specifics of Kula's
                      case; they will say only that they have not picked
up people
                      randomly and do not appeal cases without good
reason.

                      Russ Bergeron, an INS spokesman, says that
detainees' rights
                      have not been abridged. He also noted that Kula
could get
                      married in jail. Last week, Denise Cordovano,
Kula's fiancee,
                      asked for just such a ceremony. The local sheriff
turned her down.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sat Dec  8 06:47:57 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:47:57 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
Message-ID: <3C12281C.D93F18D1@sarin.com>


"Views reminiscent of Soviet propaganda"
By ARNAUD DE BORCHGRAVE, UPI Editor at Large
http://kevxml.infospace.com/_1_4JI4TKG04ZR6NFV__info/kevxml?kcfg=upi-article&sin=2001120808025705760&otmpl=/upi/story.htm&qcat=news&rn=16900&qk=10&passdate=12/08/2001

[and press editors are never on the psyopspooks' payroll, right Arnaud?]

[and questioning ashcroft is treason..]




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 11:51:45 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:51:45 +1100
Subject: U.S. Department of Interior Ordered Offline
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208064555.00a44a50@pop.useoz.com>


To stop hackers,yeah right. Nowt to do with wackenhut,casolero,octopus and 
the dominican echelon.

"To see father sky without planes for one day,(9-11) That was a beautiful 
thing,for an old man,"said one tribal elder.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 11:54:40 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:54:40 +1100
Subject: The Age of Paine Revisited, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208065227.00a48be0@pop.useoz.com>


How about revisiting the age of Douglas."power concedes nothing without the 
demand"

We demand digital cash and will defend it with assasination politics.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 12:05:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 07:05:56 +1100
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208070323.00a4beb0@pop.useoz.com>


Seen at www.indymedia.org ...Tora Tora Tora! (english)
by AP International 8:15am Fri Dec 7 '01

The day that japan pluckily fought back against vicious US colonialist 
hegemony was marked by an urgent highly classified warning to all americans 
in or travelling to the Pacific reigon.
A top secret urgent warning flash went out to all US embassies in the 
greater pacific this morning.
Laska jihad and moro rebels have agents disguised and well infiltrated as 
'sleepers'in all the major hotels frequented by american tourists.On a as 
yet undetermined signal they will attack and kill as many americans as they 
can.
The advisories are being unencrypted and prepared for public release as 
soon as a way to do so without unnecersarily alarming them is found.
US business interests are getting advance warning and have been asked to 
obtain as much information for the updated echelon op-centre as they can.
The fact US govt contracts will be awarded on the basis of cooperation with 
the outer homeland defence shield is said by a spokesman for the state dept 
to be,"not strictly correct".
Much of the assets of US govt interests are being withdrawn from the most 
dangerous countries and being replaced with 'drone' hardware and freshly 
written classified software.Millions,even billions is being spent to 
support US business interests in this new battle and the president has 
assured his contributors that "there will be no more Enrons,not while Im 
alive"
The vice president concurred from his bunker,adding that he's looking 
forward to receiving the heart of a transgenetic pig "soon,real soon"
clark cristoff for AP.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 12:17:43 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 07:17:43 +1100
Subject: aussi view of Guy Fawkes day, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208071155.00a4b0e0@pop.useoz.com>


This was a big deal when I was a little rascal.We lived in the bush and the 
bonfires were enormous.
It got turned into bunger night with massive sales of fireworks.The 2penny 
bunger was a miniature stick of dynamite.
With the inevitable mayhem and the rise of the nanny staters and safety 
nazis its all gone now yet some still praise
Guy Fawkes as 'the only person to enter parliment with honest intentions.'




From santas_workshop at straminc.com  Sat Dec  8 06:42:36 2001
From: santas_workshop at straminc.com (santas_workshop at straminc.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:42:36 -0600
Subject: Want to save this Holiday? FREE Shipping & the Best Prices South of the North Pole!
Message-ID: <200112081442.fB8EgZ703935@ak47.algebra.com>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec  8 09:38:47 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:38:47 -0800
Subject: Jamesd-david Honig:Good cop,bad cop
In-Reply-To: <021e01c17fde$779c16f0$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: <3C11DFA7.24058.32444C6@localhost>


     --
On 8 Dec 2001, at 13:50, Marcel Popescu wrote:
> David Wieck's critique of Rothbard, applicable to 
> Libertarianism in general, will close this discussion.
>
>    ``Out of the history of anarchist thought and action
> Rothbard has pulled forth a single thread, the thread of 
> individualism, and defines that individualism in a way 
> alien even to the spirit of a Max Stirner or a Benjamin 
> Tucker, whose heritage I presume he would claim

Rothbard is scarcely distinguishable from Spooner, Spooner 
very much in the same camp as Tucker, and so forth.  If you 
go back a hundred years you can easily trace a thread of 
alliance and ideological connection connecting freemarket 
anarchists very similar to moderns with the most socialist 
anarchists.

Back before 1910, before socialist terror and tyranny had 
been tried to any large extent, there was no large gap 
between socialists an anarchists.  Most socialist thought 
that only a modest about of killings and beatings would be 
required, most anarchists thought that the less property 
rights were enforceable, the more giving and sharing their 
would be.

In the period 1936-1938 anarcho socialism was actually tried, 
and therefore the ideology ceased to exist among all those 
familiar with this bloody and disastrous experiment, except 
in the sense that many mourned over its failure, though the 
brand name continued to be cynically used for an utterly 
different program.  Those who continued to call themselves 
socialists after 1938 reinvented and reinterpreted the 
anarchists of the past, giving new and strange meanings to 
their words to strip them of any anarchist tendencies, like 
Mullah Omar torturing the text of the Koran to make it mean a 
garbled mixture of postmodernism, marxism, nationalism, and 
the customs and prejudices of his home village.

The parting of the ways came earlier in the US than it did in 
Europe.

In the US, socialist anarchism faded sometime around the turn 
of the century.  In Europe, it died in 1936-1938

The history of anarchism in the US is as follows (simplified 
and abbreviated).

Originally there was no real distinction or separation 
between class struggle anarchism and individualist anarchism 
in the US.

The class struggle anarchists encountered a lack of working 
class support, and came to be dominated by vanguardists. 
Vanguardism is of course utterly incompatible with anarchism.

The split started when Tucker (then the most prominent 
individualist anarchist) denounced vanguardist "anarchists" 
who had been murdering various people, among them innocent 
working class people, to advance their political goals.  The 
split became progressively more vehement, with the 
individualist anarchists taking increasingly capitalistic 
positions.

The vanguardist anarchists, which you would call left 
anarchists, became utterly discredited by their excesses, and 
this, combined with a distinct lack of proletarian support, 
made possible an anti anarchist crackdown which for a time 
silenced all forms of anarchism in the US.

The anarchist movement in the US eventually recovered, but 
the class struggle anarchists remained discredited by their 
criminal excesses in the US, and by their inability to 
maintain any real connection with the US working class, and 
never recovered.  When the anarchist movement reappeared in 
the US, it was dominated by procapitalist thinkers who 
grounded their arguments in economic theory.  The leading 
lights of modern US anarchism have been economists.  The 
socialist "anarchists" in the US is a recent European import, 
merely an offshoot of the European movement which stole the 
anarchist brand name, when anarcho socialism died in 
Catalonia, much as modern liberals stole the "liberal" brand 
name in the US. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Qn04k2XwwEv4zBiIuDCgiGxWdnxN8v7gwPTUuW2G
     46n7bbvc1CcmPw5hh9pUodS00eWG56eChdniq22D6




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec  8 10:00:48 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:00:48 -0800
Subject: Are you now or have you ever been a crypto-anarchist?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208230340.00a1d6e0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C11E4D0.32087.3386A95@localhost>


    --
On 8 Dec 2001, at 23:09, mattd wrote:
> Subject: Are you an anarchist? Dont make me apply this 
> cattle prod to your genitals. Anarchist groups among 39 
> designated by Department of State as "terrorists" (english)
>
> Three anarchists groups are among the Department of State's 
> recent list of "terrorists": Revolutionary Proletarian 
> Nucleus (Italy), and Anarchist Faction for Overthrow, and 
> the Mavro Asteri (Black Star) (Greece)

Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, its former servants 
have unblushingly labelled themselves anarchists, Jello 
Biafra being a notorious example.

"Revolutionary proletarian nucleus" is almost the same as the 
infamous Trotskyist phrase "Revolutionary proletarian 
vanguard".  Substituting "nucleus" for "vanguard" is like a 
dot com company taking the dot out of its name after the dot 
com crash, Just as "Surfmonkey.com", suddenly became
"Surfmonkey", though its web site is just as central to its
business as ever. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     +0aRa5cnNd0KDg7/lSQIu2lKdahqKY2BD8Q7dWy1
     4qvGCebzTktvlbqLPrOTzqvN9pp761ht+eZnGUocB




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Sat Dec  8 07:32:32 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:32:32 -0500
Subject: RIAA Cracks Down After Taliban Ousted (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011208103232.A26153@ils.unc.edu>


Nice attempt at satire.

However, Afghanistan is almost the only country left
in the world where international copyright laws 
essentially don't apply.

They're not signatories to ANY treaties I could find
administered by WIPO, including the Berne and Paris 
conventions.  They're not part of the WTO or World 
Bank or NATO, or even the League of Arab States.  

In short, RIAA can take their legalese and shove
it up their intellectually protected arse, as
far as Afghanistan is concerned.

See http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/okbooks.html
for more on copyright and different laws in different
countries.  

For an extract of Afghanistan's 1950 copyright
law, see UNESCO's content at:
http://www.unesco.org/culture/copy/copyright/afghanistan/sommaire.html

I'd say the chances of even their law (which is very
slack by modern standards) still being enforced by
whomever is in charge in AF are slim to nil.
  -- Greg

PS: If you think this means AF is a "music haven"
where the rest of the world could go to host,
republish or redistribute content that's under
copyright elsewhere, sorry.  This would only apply
if you wanted to spend the rest of your life there,
because as soon as you left and arrived at, say,
a signatory to the new WIPO copyright treaty, you'd
find yourself Skylarov'd.

PPS:  Number of .af hosts listed at Netcraft = 1 (http://www.nic.af)

PPPS: Number of functional .af hosts listed at Netcraft = 0


On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 07:18:32PM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:17:09 -0700
> From: xxxx
> To: yyyy
> Subject: RIAA Cracks Down After Taliban Ousted
> 
> http://bbspot.com/News/2001/11/riaa.html
> 
> 
> Kabul, Afghanistan - The Recording Industry Association of 
> Afghanistan (RIAA) has begun a major crackdown on pirated 
> music since the Taliban fell from power 2 days ago, and
> launched their own bid for control in the war torn city. 
> Many cheered the fall of the Taliban, but the RIAA feels 
> that if music can be listened to that copyrights will be 
> violated. 
> 
> Soon after the Taliban fled Kabul, black market Qamar Gul 
> and Ahmad Zahir CDs were being openly peddled on street 
> corners. Rumors of Abdullah Muqri MP3s circulating on the 
> Kabul computer were widespread.
> 
> "It was much easier to control music piracy when the Taliban 
> was in control. Now we fear that with their new found freedom 
> the people of Kabul and in the rest of Afghanistan will turn 
> to copyright violation to satisfy their musical needs," said 
> RIAA President Ghulam Hotak. "An RIAA lead country will be 
> able to enjoy the joys of music, but only if artist are 
> properly compensated."
> 
> Opposition groups denounce the RIAA power grab. "We will fight 
> to the last man to keep the RIAA from power in Afghanistan," 
> said General Mahommed Dawood of the Northern Alliance. "We did 
> not unseat the Taliban only to have them replaced by a more 
> oppressive regime."
> 
> The Recording Industry Association of America has pledged 
> support to the RIAA by offering troops from its elite piracy 
> fighting Freedom Squad. "We can not sit idly by and watch the 
> people of Afghanistan violate copyrights. Our brothers in the 
> RIAA need our support," said Hilary Rosen.
> 
> EOF




From iggy at panix.com  Sat Dec  8 09:51:54 2001
From: iggy at panix.com (Iggy River)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:51:54 -0500
Subject: subscribe
Message-ID: <3C120CEA.25656.DBBF242@localhost>


subscribe




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  8 03:50:00 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:50:00 +0200
Subject: Jamesd-david Honig:Good cop,bad cop
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207055615.009f9a80@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <021e01c17fde$779c16f0$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "mattd" 

> http://www.spunk.org/library/otherpol/critique/sp000713.txt

David Wieck's critique of Rothbard,
applicable to Libertarianism in general, will close this
discussion.

   ``Out of the history of anarchist thought and action
Rothbard has pulled forth a single thread, the thread of
individualism, and defines that individualism in a way
alien even to the spirit of a Max Stirner or a Benjamin
Tucker, whose heritage I presume he would claim - to
say nothing of how alien is his way to the spirit of
Godwin, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Malatesta, and the
historically anonymous persons who through their thoughts and
action have tried to give anarchism a living meaning.
Out of this thread Rothbard manufactures one more
bourgeois ideology.''[31]

[Mark] And this is supposed to be a CRITIQUE of Rothbard. "He doesn't agree
with my saints, so he's wrong.". Duh.

The stuff about Ayn Rand was nice, though:

<>

This is one of the arguments used by Roy Childs: the politics in Objectivism
are in total contradiction with the rest, since they presume that humans are
bad, except when they are part of the (minimal, or even not so minimal)
government.

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 19:55:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 14:55:17 +1100
Subject: Honig falling down drunk?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208144940.00a353f0@pop.useoz.com>


"...If you don't see the implications for future history..."

NO FUTURE NO FUTURE
NO FUTURE FOR YOU
NO FUTURE NO FUTURE
NO FUTURE NO FUTURE FOR ME

NO FUTURE NO FUTURE
NO FUTURE FOR YOU
NO FUTURE NO FUTURE FOR YOU




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 20:03:28 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 15:03:28 +1100
Subject: Why May
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208145920.00a33d80@pop.useoz.com>


And now, the end is near And so I face the final curtain You KKKunt, I4m 
not a queer I4ll state my case, of which I4m certain I4ve lived a life 
that4s full And each and every highway And yet, much more than this I did 
it my way And yes, I4ve had a few But then again, too few to mention But 
dig, what I have to focked I4ll see it through with no devotion Of that, 
take care and just Be careful along the highway And more, much more than 
this I did it my way There were times, I4m sure you knew When there was 
nothing fucking else to do But through it all, when there was doubt I shot 
it up or kicked it out I fought the just as before And did it my way 
Knocked out in bed last night I4ve had my fill, my share of looting And 
now, the tears subside I find it all so amusing To think, I killed a cat 
And may I say, oh no, not in a shy way. But no, no, not me I did it my way 
For what is a rat, what has he got When he finds out that he cannot Say the 
things he truly thinks But only the words, not what he feels The record 
shows, I4ve got no clothes And did it my way.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 20:31:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 15:31:08 +1100
Subject: Delinquent officer list
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208152930.00a39280@pop.useoz.com>


Agent jeff gordon is requested to supply the following...Tax Reporting 
Account number Legal Entity name (individual, partnership or a corporation) 
Original amount of the debt (the current amount due is not disclosable) 
Date of lien filing Court where the tax lien was filed Date the business 
license was revoked (if applicable)In relation to abuse of office in bell 
trial. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 03:56:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 22:56:01 +1100
Subject: US seeks to force feed pilot it tricked, detained 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208225222.00a1d1a0@pop.useoz.com>


Seif should run for office,Its 20 years since MP bobby 
sands.Sheriff  arpaio needs operating on with a soft drill.(my 2c)

"All advice is bad,good advice,fatal" Wilde.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 04:09:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:09:52 +1100
Subject: Are you now or have you ever been a crypto-anarchist?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208230340.00a1d6e0@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: Are you an anarchist? Dont make me apply this cattle prod to your 
genitals.
Anarchist groups among 39 designated by Department of State as "terrorists" 
(english)


Three anarchists groups are among the Department of State's recent list of 
"terrorists": Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus (Italy), and Anarchist 
Faction for Overthrow, and the Mavro Asteri (Black Star) (Greece)

7 anarchists jailed in US puppet police state of Turkey.

Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad of Malaysia said that the United States 
has been learning from his country how to combat terrorism and that the 
West, which once accused him of trampling on human rights, now is following 
him.
.
"It's no good taking action after the crime," Mr. Mahathir said. "We have 
to act in anticipation, and not in the usual manner, because having to find 
proof of a crime which has not yet been committed is difficult."




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 04:12:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:12:02 +1100
Subject: More on
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208231114.00a30dd0@pop.useoz.com>


6 anarchists who are "claimed to be" from U~ak Anarchist Autonom have been 
arrested and will be judged in State Security Court-SSC (Devlet G|venlik 
Mahkemesi-DGM). SSC's are special courts which were established for 
revolutionary leftists and Kurdish militants; this is the first event in 
Turkish anarchist history that a group of "anarchists" are being sent to 
SSC. They are claimed to be members of an illegal organization and the 
reason of the arrests is JUST an anarchist leaflet they've distributed in a 
demonstration of trade-unions in 1st of December. For now they are in U~ak 
Prison but perhaps will be moved to Nazilli Prison and wait for their trial 
in Izmir SSC. The news appeared in one of the biggest papers of Turkish 
mainstream media (H|rriyet) but in Europe press. (So we could not justify 
the info for a few days) More detailed info will be sent as soon as we get.. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 04:49:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:49:25 +1100
Subject: Wank for capitalism
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208234829.00a34890@pop.useoz.com>


SchNEWS just couldn't make it up, last Sunday was the first annual walk for
capitalism. Three dozen capitalists, (or two as the police saw it), walked
through Westlake Park in Seattle waving signs such as "Help a starving
child in Africa. Give him capitalism." "Make Money Not Class War." and
"Capitalism is more important than democracy." - OK, these were held by
anti-capitalist protestors, who infiltrated the march.

Tym Parsons, the Seattle coordinator of WalkForCapitalism complained "We
knew they had something in the works. Their aim was to infiltrate our
organization and discredit it by way of parody."

Er, SchNEWS reckons you did a good enough job of that yourself, with one
passer by commenting "I find it all very amusing. I don't think I've ever
seen a protest for capitalism before. Don't these people already have what
they're fighting for?"

The question is why did they choose to celebrate D2 (they've even nicked
the names) with something as inefficient, ecologically sustainable and
downright un-capitalistic as walking?

SchNEWS reckons they would have also got more people onboard if someone had
promised to bung each person who turned up #25 and a packed lunch (well
that's the only reason us rent-a-mob lot ever bother turning up to
demonstrations.)

Have a laugh, look at their website: www.walkforcapitalism.org/




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 04:53:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:53:42 +1100
Subject: "Im for capitalism! How much does it cost?"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208235222.00a301e0@pop.useoz.com>


Local News : Monday, December 03, 2001 Protesters' spoof? What a capital
idea! By Caitlin Cleary Seattle Times staff reporter In yesterday's
WalkForCapitalism, it was left to the true believers and pro-capitalist
watchdogs to weed out the real capitalists from the fake, dressed as they
were to the nearest thrift-store approximation of capitalist chic: suit
jackets, ties, argyle sweater vests, their hair evenly parted and smoothed,
holding signs that read "Capitalism is Better than Democracy." It was
Capitalism Day, or D2  the first Sunday of December, set aside by a global
pro-capitalist campaign to celebrate and promote capitalism, globalism,
technology, free trade, individual rights and private property  and lo and
behold, the anti-capitalist, anti-globalization, anti-WTO protesters were
crashing their party. Seattle was one of 100 cities around the world that
hosted WalkForCapitalism. Its participants spoke admiringly of capitalists
such as Bill Gates and Thomas Edison, and held signs that read, "Make Money
Not Class War." Tom Szalay of Everett, a retired firefighter, said the
protesters might want to think about getting jobs and joining capitalism.
The crowd of about 100 people seemed evenly split between the earnest
capitalists and the World Trade Organization protesters in capitalist drag.
"We knew they had something in the works," said Tym Parsons, the Seattle
coordinator of WalkForCapitalism. "Their aim was to infiltrate our
organization and discredit it by way of parody." The downtown event was
like performance art: Faux capitalists, dressed in suits, carried signs
that read, "Child Labor Is Best For America: Smaller Hands Mean Tighter
Stitches" and distributed fake business cards from "Globex Industries" with
the company motto, "We Own You." They remained poker-faced as they spoke
about their support of child labor and love of capitalism. Relentlessly
serious throughout the march, they never got out of character. If the
anti-capitalist interlopers did not completely overshadow the original
intent of WalkForCapitalism, their parody did make the event more of a
spectacle. Anti-capitalist protester Scott Thompson was explaining the
goings-on to passer-by Kerry Pflugh of Washington, N.J., in town for a
conference. "I find it all very amusing," said Pflugh. "I don't think I've
ever seen a protest for capitalism before. Don't these people already have
what they're fighting for?" Because the WalkForCapitalism organizers did
not get a parade permit, police escorted both groups together from Benaroya
Hall to Westlake Park, while Parsons shouted at the WTO protesters to
leave. Parsons' group had obtained a permit for the rally at the park, and
once everyone had arrived there, police began to remove the anti-capitalist
protesters. "But I'm for capitalism," said a protester who called himself
D.S. Rosenthorpe. "How much does it cost to get in?" he asked, offering up
one dollar. He did receive a park-exclusion notice barring him from all
downtown parks for seven days. There were no arrests. "We have the
authority to enforce park rules," said Seattle police Lt. Daniel Whelan.
"Our mission here is for life, safety and the protection of property." A
few of the fake capitalists were convincing enough to be left alone in the
rally crowd. When asked if they were capitalists, they responded with a
firm nod and a barely perceptible wink. Sometimes they smiled and yelled
"Hippies!" back at the group of protesters from whence they came. The
obviously fake capitalists were sent across Fourth Avenue, where they lined
the sidewalk in front of Borders bookstore and sang and shouted, "Shop!
Shop! Shop!" And shop the people did. Even before the rally ended, the
streets were crowded with shoppers, burdened with bags from Old Navy and
Nordstrom. Caitlin Cleary can be reached at 206-464-8214 or at
mailto:ccleary at seattletimes.com -- Dan Clore
mailto:clore at columbia-center.org Now available: _The Unspeakable and
Others_ http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro Lord
Werdgliffe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/ Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/necpage.htm News for Anarchists &
Activists: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 10:20:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 05:20:10 +1100
Subject: E-money under our noses
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011209051246.00a1b1c0@pop.useoz.com>


Barter units of money or BUMs start to circulate in lieu of dollar and 
float with the dollar.When the 1st letter from the tax office arrives to 
tell you your precious BUMs will be taxed as dollars they are subjected to 
AP.If they harden the tax collectors as targets then other federal 
employees,prison guards,forest service grunts,postal workers become fair game.
Like Osama says,if your paying taxes,your propping up a rogue terror 
state.Its time to tear apart the state.Bet the farm.




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Dec  9 19:32:34 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:32:34 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011206020259.0384c2b0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1812b$4eee2010$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>

The big question is: will FreeS/WAN latest release after some 4 or 5
years of development finally both compile and install cleanly on current
versions of Red Hat Linux, FreeS/WAN's purported target platform?

--Lucky, who is bothered by the fact that most his Linux using friends
so far have been unable to get FreeS/WAN to even compile into a working
kernel, while just about every *BSD distribution - and for that matter
Windows XP - ship with a working IPSec implementation out-of-the-box.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:05 AM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
> Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
> 
> 
>  From Claudia Schmeing 's summary:
>   
> =========
> 
> 1.  Release 1.93 ships!
>      ===================
>      1 post Dec 3
>      
> http://lists.freeswan.org/pipermail/users/2001-December/005632
.html

A number of small improvements have been added to this release, which
was shipped on-time.

Some highlights:

* Diffie-Hellman group 5 is now the first group proposed.
* Two cases where fragmentation is needed will be handled better, thanks
   to these two changes

        The code that decides whether to send an ICMP complaint back
about
        a packet which had to be fragmented, but couldn't be, has gotten
        smart enough that we now feel comfortable enabling it by
default.
   and

        IKE (UDP/500) packets which were large enough to be fragmented
used
        to be mishandled, with some of the fragments failing to bypass
IPsec
        tunnels properly.  This has been fixed; our thanks to Hans
Schultz.

* If Pluto gets more than one RSA key from DNS, it will now try each
key.
   This will help when a system administrator replaces a key.
* There is preliminary support for building RPMs.
* SMP support is better.
* The team has eliminated a vulnerability that might permit a denial of 
service
   attack.

What can we expect from the next release? Henry Spencer writes:

     We are in the process of chasing down a couple of significant bugs
(which
     have been there since at least 1.92 and possibly earlier), and we
*might*
     ship another release quite shortly if we nail them down and fix
them.  If
     we don't, we won't.  Barring that possibility, the next release is
planned
     for the end of January; a more precise date will be announced
shortly.




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From warlord at MIT.EDU  Mon Dec 10 10:21:26 2001
From: warlord at MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins)
Date: 10 Dec 2001 13:21:26 -0500
Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
In-Reply-To: "Lucky Green"'s message of "Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:32:34 -0800"
References: <000201c1812b$4eee2010$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>
Message-ID: 

Note that to compile FreeS/WAN on Red Hat using the Red Hat
kernel-source RPM you need to:
	rm include/linux/modules/*.ver
before you 'make dep'.  Otherwise you get module version
brokenness.

-derek

"Lucky Green"  writes:

> The big question is: will FreeS/WAN latest release after some 4 or 5
> years of development finally both compile and install cleanly on current
> versions of Red Hat Linux, FreeS/WAN's purported target platform?
> 
> --Lucky, who is bothered by the fact that most his Linux using friends
> so far have been unable to get FreeS/WAN to even compile into a working
> kernel, while just about every *BSD distribution - and for that matter
> Windows XP - ship with a working IPSec implementation out-of-the-box.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart
> > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:05 AM
> > To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> > Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
> > Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
> > 
> > 
> >  From Claudia Schmeing 's summary:
> >   
> > =========
> > 
> > 1.  Release 1.93 ships!
> >      ===================
> >      1 post Dec 3
> >      
> > http://lists.freeswan.org/pipermail/users/2001-December/005632
> .html
> 
> A number of small improvements have been added to this release, which
> was shipped on-time.
> 
> Some highlights:
> 
> * Diffie-Hellman group 5 is now the first group proposed.
> * Two cases where fragmentation is needed will be handled better, thanks
>    to these two changes
> 
>         The code that decides whether to send an ICMP complaint back
> about
>         a packet which had to be fragmented, but couldn't be, has gotten
>         smart enough that we now feel comfortable enabling it by
> default.
>    and
> 
>         IKE (UDP/500) packets which were large enough to be fragmented
> used
>         to be mishandled, with some of the fragments failing to bypass
> IPsec
>         tunnels properly.  This has been fixed; our thanks to Hans
> Schultz.
> 
> * If Pluto gets more than one RSA key from DNS, it will now try each
> key.
>    This will help when a system administrator replaces a key.
> * There is preliminary support for building RPMs.
> * SMP support is better.
> * The team has eliminated a vulnerability that might permit a denial of 
> service
>    attack.
> 
> What can we expect from the next release? Henry Spencer writes:
> 
>      We are in the process of chasing down a couple of significant bugs
> (which
>      have been there since at least 1.92 and possibly earlier), and we
> *might*
>      ship another release quite shortly if we nail them down and fix
> them.  If
>      we don't, we won't.  Barring that possibility, the next release is
> planned
>      for the end of January; a more precise date will be announced
> shortly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Cryptography Mailing List
> Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/    PP-ASEL-IA     N1NWH
       warlord at MIT.EDU                        PGP key available



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From root at ak47.algebra.com  Mon Dec 10 12:27:50 2001
From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:27:50 -0600
Subject: test
Message-ID: <200112102027.fBAKRoMh008395@ak47.algebra.com>


hi




From root at ak47.algebra.com  Mon Dec 10 12:28:27 2001
From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:28:27 -0600
Subject: test
Message-ID: <200112102028.fBAKSRM5008494@ak47.algebra.com>


hi




From root at ak47.algebra.com  Mon Dec 10 12:30:52 2001
From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:30:52 -0600
Subject: CYPHER.PUNK MAILING LIST failure
Message-ID: <200112102030.fBAKUqQr008813@ak47.algebra.com>


due to a fuckup with sendmail, cypherpunks at algebra.com did nto work for a while. I was not paying attention until Hal brought it to my attention.




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Dec 10 12:37:02 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:37:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nov-L: Narco News wins big! http://www.narconews.com/ (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:45:00 -0800
From: Nora Callahan 
To: november-l at november.org
Subject: Nov-L: Narco News wins big! http://www.narconews.com/

November Coalition members:

For about a year we have been covering this story in the Razor Wire and
periodic updates on this elist. 

Nora

Subj:    Ross Regnart: Al  Giordano won his case against Bank in Mexico
now 
owned by Citibank
Date:   12/8/2001 11:00:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   lobo at renonevada.net (Ross)
To: Chswn at cs.com

  December 8, 2001
  A Narco News Global Celebration!

  Narco News Beats Banamex!

  -- NY State Supreme Court Dismisses All Charges against Mario
Men�ndez, Al 
  Giordano and The Narco News Bulletin

  -- "Narco-Bankers" Failed Despite Citigroup Merger

  -- Judge Paula Omansky: Free Speech Champion

  -- "Narco-Lobbyists" at Akin Gump Strauss Hauer and Feld humilliated; 
McLish 
  filed an insufficient complaint

  -- NO Jurisdiction over authentic journalist Mario Men�ndez, publisher
and 
  editor of the daily Por Esto! in Mexico

  -- Insufficient Complaint vs. Narco News and Al Giordano

  -- The Drug War Went on Trial And The Drug War Lost

  Stay Tuned for a Full Report:

  http://www.narconews.com/

  Narco News offers its profound thanks to our readers for your support 
  throughout this expensive attack on our free speech and press freedom.

  We thank the many people who donated large and small contributions to
the 
  "Drug War on Trial" defense fund to defeat the billionaires' abuse of
the 
  legal system to attack cyber-liberties.

  We extend our congratulations and gratitude to Mario Men�ndez in
M�rida, 
  Yucatan, for his heroic work exposing corrupt white-collar drug
traffickers 
  and how the US DEA and other government agencies protect them.

  Mario started a movement. And this movement, to expose the real powers 
  behind the corrupt war on drugs, and to end the drug prohibition from
which 
  they profit, will continue, and will triumph.

  We have not yet begun to fight!

  We offer our most profound thanks to Tom Lesser, counsel to Narco
News, and 
  everyone at Lesser, Newman, Souweine and Nasser of Northampton, 
  Massachusetts, particularly Libby Spencer and Karen Thatcher, who beat
the 
  biggest lawyer-lobbyist firm in the world.

  Tom Lesser pitched a no-hitter against the Akin Gumpsters, the
overpaid 
  incompetents who struck out at every time at bat against the great
civil 
  liberties and free-speech barrister from Massachusetts.

  It is fair to say that without Tom Lesser, this immense victory would
not 
  have been possible.

  We also thank the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), who valiently
filed 
  an amicus brief on behalf of The Narco News Bulletin when other "press 
  freedom" institutions ran from the fight.

  We also thank Marty Garbus, David Atlas and the team who defended
Mario 
  Menendez so ably, whose teamwork and experience made this defense 
  unstoppable against the biggest of foes.

  And we thank all the many colleagues in authentic journalism who wrote 
  about, spoke about, reported on and investigated this case, and in
every 
  single instance concluded what NY State Supreme Court Justice Paula
Omansky 
  has just ruled: This billionaire's lawsuit should never have been brought.

  We are sure we have more people to thank, but frankly, it is Saturday
Night 
  in a country called Am�rica, a night to celebrate. It's a world dance 
party, 
  from Cochabamba to your town.

  But be assured: We are not done with the billionaire Plaintiffs in
this 
  case.

  They abused the court system and used their overpowering wealth to try
to 
  overpower us. And they failed.

  We will consult with our attorneys and co-defendant, and announce the
next 
  step in our legal strategy shortly. The aggressors will not be let off
the 
  hook.

  We have anticipated this victory, and now phase two begins.

  To repeat: ALL three charges against all three defendants in the case
of 
  Banco Nacional de Mexico (Banamex) vs. Mario Men�ndez, Al Giordano and 
Narco 
  News have been dismissed by the New York State Supreme Court.

  Impacting...

 >From somewhere in a country called Am�rica,

  Al Giordano
  Publisher
  The Narco News Bulletin
  http://www.narconews.com/
  narconews at hotmail.com
-- 
The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit
organization, your gifts are tax deductible. 
You can send your donation to: 

The November Coalition  
795 South Cedar 
Colville, WA 99114
--------
November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the November Coalition.
To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a
message to november-L-request at november.org containing the command
"unsubscribe"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 13:31:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:31:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda 
In-Reply-To: <3C147AFA.13899.362FBE@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> And I have given numerous examples, to which no one has
> replied, except as mattd has recently done -- by citing
> Chomsky as evidence for the truthfulness of Chomsky, much
> after the fashion of a Christian who cites the bible as proof
> of the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus as proof of the
> infallibility of the bible.

[text deleted]

Not true. I've asked several times for clarification and never(!!!)
received anything from you in responce. I'll look into the text I deleted
since it will take a few minutes to review. I'll let you know what I think
of your analysis of Chomsky's views.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 13:44:56 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:44:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Congress of the rat.
In-Reply-To: <3C13F9A0.10861.30DA155@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 10 Dec 2001, at 16:20, mattd wrote:
> > Was it Chomsky who pointed out that the capitalist firm is
> > structured like a totalitarian state?
> 
> The difference is that you can change firms, or start your
> own, without being shot. 

Which comes more from the involvement of government than any inherent
ethical peak capitalism may aspire to (it doesn't so your point is moot
unless you also admit the utility of having governments as
intermediaries is a positive - can't see a CACL supporter as yourself
going that route).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 13:47:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:47:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211094041.00a51de0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> There are checks and balances,get a grip.Read the essay.

No, there are not.

> Its self limiting.No one who is anonymous has anything to fear from AP.

The only way that AP would be harmless to an anonymous person is if they
were anonymous to EVERYONE. The entire point of AP is to provide a
mechanism to reach ANYONE who might infringe upon your 'rights'.

Trying to pitch AP as if only certain classes of people are at risk is
simply ignorance (you didn't really read AP now did you) or else you
intentionaly misrepresent. Either way, your point isn't valid.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Dec 10 16:16:37 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:16:37 -0800
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <0b6888eaf9844ca38eee29b1d175ab8f@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 


Whatever promise AP has for its avowed purpose, so far it
has helped to jail a couple of guys and smear a few more
while boosting the careers of several alleged targets.

Talking about AP in public is still going on, here and elsewhere.
Disagreeing about it too. Take it seriously or as a joke, take
your pick. Nothing in the essay proves it's serious or a joke.
Its quality appears to be determined by the credulity of the
reader. 

I like its jokey aspects more than the other. But that's my feeling
about this forum too. The thrill continues, trying to figure out
who is serious and how is joking and who is laying the traps. 

The more serious posts here are the best, but mattd is coming
on swell for a standoff comic. 

True that not everyone likes the humor of political agitation,
and prefer a somber aping of the pols and mils and edus
flogging non-fictional aspirations to right what's wrong,
delusional ravings presented as insight.

Jim Bell would have made AP an underground comedy if he
had hung out with the time-wasterists at MIT rather than with
the techno-commercialists. But I think his techno-political
potboiler succeeds by making a comical wrong turn into the
pokey, not once but twice, and inspiring CJ to follow,
and mattd, and surely more to come as the AP PR machine
gains momentum. 

A lesson to be learned by the politico-religio-righteous.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Mon Dec 10 16:16:56 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:16:56 -0800
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
Message-ID: <3C14DFF8.2989.35052EE1@localhost>


An idea just popped into my head, I was wondering if
anyone had thought of this before. Most likely someone has,
and has either proven the idea is impossible or has figured
out how to do it.

Th idea is,  when buying some good or service with
digital cash,  the customer first forwards the cash to the vendor
in some transformed way such that the vendor 
can't yet spend it, but can verify that it is
good cash of the correct amount, and that 
the customer will no longer be able to spend it.

The idea is, if the vendor follows through on his side,
the customer will supply the additional information the
vendor will need to redeem the cash.  The customer can still
rip the vendor off by refusing to do so, but he has no incentive,
the money's already gone for him.  Conversely,  an
unscrupulous "vendor" could in principle trick a customer
into throwing away money on nothing,  but he would gain no profit
in doing so.

I realize the same effect is trivial to achieve if you have a mutually
trusted third party willing to act as escrow agent, but if you
don't, is there a a way to build this into a transfer protocol?

Thanks,
	George 




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 10 14:06:05 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:06:05 -0500
Subject: [Remops] A comparison of Frog-Admin, the Script-Kiddie,
  AnonymousTrolls and other plagues of the privacy community. (fwd) 
Message-ID: <200112102206.RAA06535@mail.lokmail.net>

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From bobhurst at gopbi.com  Mon Dec 10 18:10:02 2001
From: bobhurst at gopbi.com (bobhurst at gopbi.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:10:02
Subject: ADV: Web hosting $6.95 per month - NO GIMMICKS!
Message-ID: <200112102311.fBANBWDf032178@ak47.algebra.com>

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Size: 7358 bytes
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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Dec 10 19:52:40 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:52:40 -0800
Subject: eCash reported mortally wounded...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <00ca01c181f7$47c28480$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>


Eugene wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > --Lucky, waiting patiently for 2005.
> 
> Patent expiration date? Which one?

US Patent 4759063 "Blind Signature Systems" will expire on July 19,
2005. Given that this is a Tuesday and taking into account that whoever
may own the patents at that time is not about to file a patent
infringement suit on Monday, the last day the patent is valid, I hereby
announce a patent expiration party at my place on Saturday, July 16
2005.

The day will come,
--Lucky




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec 10 20:30:36 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:30:36 -0800
Subject: Thuraya Profits From Satphone Stampede
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011210202937.0382d4c0@pop3.lvcm.com>


Thuraya Profits From Satphone Stampede

This year's war on terrorism has proved to be a good thing for the Thuraya 
satphone, with everyone from journalists to warlords buying the phones in 
Afghanistan. Savanna International Telecommunication, which is selling the 
phones and service, says it isn't asking any questions; rather, it is just 
taking in the money. During the past five days, the carrier says it has 
sold more than 120 sets, and people continue to stand in line for the $700 
handsets. Savanna says its phones can't be monitored, but others are 
skeptical of this claim. Reported by The Gulf News.

http://www.offshoretele.com/product/hss.htm




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Dec 10 20:34:42 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:34:42 -0800
Subject: will the real capitalism please stand up
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206135241.00a2bd90@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <655AE96F-EDF0-11D5-95FD-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 06:58 PM, mattd wrote:

> Tim may or a pretender wrote "The solution is obvious: capitalism. The
> real one, not the fascist version."
>
> Objectivism the real thing? How do you separate  fascism  from 
> capitalism?

	If you have to ask, you don't understand either *at all*.

	But there is a simple test.

	Who owns the guns?

--
Amendment II, Revised: A well-regulated population being necessary to 
the security of a police state, the right of the Government to keep and 
destroy arms shall not be infringed.
--Sten Drescher --




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec 10 20:35:27 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:35:27 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211094041.00a51de0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011210203527.009bab80@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:53 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>Tim said its an openly elitist list 
>once.

Yes, so is an university.  A meritocracy is necessarily discriminatory.

Deal with it.

AOL has plenty of groups for folks who find this list too abrasive..




From cypherpunks at vr.net  Mon Dec 10 20:39:07 2001
From: cypherpunks at vr.net (cypherpunks at vr.net)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:39:07
Subject: GUARANTEED way to have more CREDIT FOR THE HOLIDAYS!! Time:8:39:07 PM
Message-ID: <200112110444.WAA02055@einstein.ssz.com>


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From cypherpunks at penn.com  Mon Dec 10 20:39:11 2001
From: cypherpunks at penn.com (cypherpunks at penn.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:39:11
Subject: GUARANTEED way to have more CREDIT FOR THE HOLIDAYS!! Time:8:39:11 PM
Message-ID: <200112110530.XAA03926@einstein.ssz.com>


Dear cyphlust,


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program to quickly get a new, legal, unblemished credit file and 
establish Excellent Credit. If you don't have bad credit, but
want to make your existing credit EXCELLENT, we will go straight
to STEP 5.

Step 1 - 
Because no two people in the United States have the same Social
Security Number, Banks and Creditors access your credit file 
almost entirely by your SS#. You will not want to change your
Social Security Number because it is extremely difficult to do 
so and you need it for your Employment, Taxes and Social 
Security Benefits. The FEDERAL PRIVACY ACT OF 1974 clearly
states that only the Government and your employer can force you 
to use your SS#. Because of this law you are allowed to legally
use another 9 digit number to use in place of your Social
Security # on credit applications. 

The first day you become our client, you will receive your own
number through the Employer Identification Number Program. You
will need us for this because 95% of all Employer Identification
Numbers, although 9 digits, do not look anything like Social
Security Numbers and cannot be used on credit applications.
We will legally get you an Employer Identification Number that 
fits in the same range of Social Numbers in use today. Because 
the Federal Laws do not require you to give your SS# to anyone
besides your Employer and the Government, you can now legally 
use this number in place of your SS# on credit applications. 
Remember, your new number will only be used for new credit. 

Step 2 - 
No two people with the same name have the same mailing address,
so you will need to obtain a new mailing address for use on your
new credit file. A friend, relative or mailbox address in your
area will be perfect.

Step 3 - 
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so you will also need a new telephone number for use on your
new credit file. A friend, relative, voice mail or pager will 
again work perfectly.

Step 4 - 
With your new Social Security number, new address and new
telephone number we will open your new credit file. It will now 
be totally impossible for any creditor to know anything about
your past credit history.

Step 5-
To guarantee that you will quickly have EXCELLENT CREDIT, we
will assist you in instantly adding UNLIMITED positive
information to your credit file. This is an unknown way of 
adding real accounts to your new credit file to give you an 
Excellent Credit Rating in less than 15 days. As you know, the 
more positive information on your credit file, the more money 
banks will lend you. Countless clients of ours have credit lines
over $100,000 because of our Proven Credit Advantage Program!

When we are finished you will receive a copy of your credit
file proving that you now have excellent credit! This will take
less than 15 days. You will now be able to easily qualify for
ANY credit you apply for! To be on the road to EXCELLENT CREDIT
simply send us your name, complete mailing address including 
zip code and telephone number (optional), along with a check,
money order or credit card payable to American Financial Services
Inc. for $29.95. 

All necessary paperwork will be priority mailed to you within 
72 hours!

   $$$$ RISK FREE DOUBLE YOUR MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!!  $$$$

My Proven Credit Advantage Program unconditionally guarantees 
you will qualify for personal loans, business loans, credit 
cards, auto loans, home loans and any other credit you apply for!

If you are not able to qualify for credit after using my program, 
simply return your Proven Credit Advantage Program along with
your denial letter and your $29.95 investment will be refunded
DOUBLE! That's a $59.90 refund if this doesn't work like I said!

I make this guarantee to you because the Proven Credit Advantage
Program has already helped over 37,000 people just like you.
I KNOW it works - all you need to do is sign up TODAY! I truly 
look forward to making you another SATISFIED CLIENT!!

------------------Print & Cut Order Form---------------------
Yes! I deserve excellent credit. Please enroll me in the Proven
Credit Advantage Program. The following information is for our
records only and does not need to be your new credit file information.

	***       Please Print Carefully      ***

NOTE:  Orders cannot be processed without complete information.
Credit cards must including your signature. 
 
NAME____________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME____________________________________________

CURRENT ADDRESS_________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP________________________________________
 
PHONE NUMBER____________________________________________
 
EMAIL ADDRESS___________________________________________

TYPE OF PAYMENT:

______CHECK/MONEY ORDER 
(Payable to American Financial Services Inc.)

Credit Card orders please complete the following:
 
______VISA ______MASTERCARD _______AMEX_______


CREDIT CARD# __________________________________________
 
EXPIRATION DATE________________________________________
 
NAME ON CARD___________________________________________
 
TOTAL AMOUNT $29.95

DATE:x__________________

SIGNATURE(Required):x_________________________________

___ Please e-mail me my PROVEN CREDIT ADVANTAGE PROGRAM to the 
    above e-mail address.

___ Please send me my PROVEN CREDIT ADVANTAGE PROGRAM via 
    United States Priority Mail to the above address.


For CREDIT CARD ORDERS you may fax this form to us.
1-310-934-6110    1-310-934-6110     1-310-934-6110.

For Check by FAX orders:
.........................................................
Attach a completed and signed check here. Simply paste check 
here and FAX. 
1-310-934-6110    1-310-934-6110     1-310-934-6110.

Or mail to:
American Financial Services Inc.
Attn: Mike Robbins
311 N. Robertson Blvd.
Suite 625
Beverly Hills, CA 90210




From cypherpunks at earthlink.com  Mon Dec 10 20:40:12 2001
From: cypherpunks at earthlink.com (cypherpunks at earthlink.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:40:12
Subject: GUARANTEED way to have more CREDIT FOR THE HOLIDAYS!! Time:8:40:12 PM
Message-ID: <200112110444.fBB4iGDL014366@ak47.algebra.com>


Dear cypr3ss,


$$  GUARANTEED WAY TO QUICKLY HAVE EXCELLENT CREDIT!!  $$


Dear Friend,

Give yourself the ADVANTAGE of enjoying life more with EXCELLENT
CREDIT!! Over the past 8 years I have perfected a system called
the Proven Credit Advantage Program. It's a guaranteed way for
legally getting an excellent credit rating almost instantly. 
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From tbr at bora.com  Mon Dec 10 20:52:08 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:52:08 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <3C1590F8.DB831862@bora.com>


At 10:17 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>Jim seems to have missed out on teenagerhood.CJ seems not to have left
>teenagerhood.The boiling pot is like darwins discovery of evolution,It

The personal flaws of an author do not detract from his ideas.  We even
tolerate your unmedicated rants for the same reason.   Cf Rand and
her affair.  Condit does not count.




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Dec 10 20:53:19 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:53:19 -0800
Subject: FW: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
Message-ID: <00da01c181ff$c0e4d3b0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>


While I am too far from the process to offer comment to the contents of
the post below, the last paragraph of the post in some bizarre way did
help crystallize a thought that I knew had been nagging in the back of
my mind for months, perhaps as much of a year, but that I just could not
quite bring to the foreground.

FreeS/WAN occupies a position very rarely found in efficient markets,
such as open source software. While the position is rarely encountered,
it can nonetheless exist: I believe that FreeS/WAN is a natural
monopoly.

Natural monopolies are usually only found in extremely small markets.
The economic textbook example is a power company on an island of 50
people. The market size is simply too small to sustain the overhead of
two companies, no matter how efficient both companies may become.
Therefore, the market doesn't attract competitors, even absent any
regulatory market distortions. (Hence the "natural" in "natural
monopoly" :-)

But for whatever reasons, FreeS/WAN has been holding such a natural
monopoly position in by far the largest market in which I have ever seen
such a beast. I find this fascinating. I wonder if economists will some
day study the case to determine what factors brought it about.

[I presume somebody other than the FreeS/WAN project may have written a
few lines of Linux open source IPSec code, but they aren't competitors
in that market any more than a guy walking around with a charged car
battery offering service would be a competitor to the power company in
the island example].

--Lucky, who simply had to share this revelation. Back to writing
Mixmaster remailer code.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On
Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:54 PM
To: cypherpunks at lne.com; cryptography at wasabisystems.com
Subject: RE: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!


On Sunday 09 December 2001 07:32 pm, Lucky Green
 wrote:
> The big question is: will FreeS/WAN latest release after some 4 or 5
> years of development finally both compile and install cleanly on 
> current versions of Red Hat Linux, FreeS/WAN's purported target 
> platform?

The latest releases of both Suse and Mandrake are both able to install
kernels with Freeswan already integrated.  It's a little newer addition
to Mandrake, so you may want to use Suse.  Suse makes it easy to set up
encrypted file systems and other nice features.

The major problem that holds back the development of FreeS/WAN is with
its management.  [Management that cares more about sitting on its
pulpit, than getting useful software into the hands of people.] Unless
things have changed recently, they still won't accept contributions from
the US.  This makes no sense.  GPG is shipping with every Linux
distribution I know of, and the German's take contributions from the US.

The primary kernel developers have been willing to integrate crypto into
the kernel since the crypto regs were lowered.  It's the policy of no US
contributions that's holding back Linux IPSEC.

IMHO:  If Freeswan had never been created, an alternate, more mature
implementation would already exist in the mainline Linux kernel.

--Anonymous




From tbr at bora.com  Mon Dec 10 20:57:46 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:57:46 -0800
Subject: N-grams and the state
Message-ID: <3C15924A.78F42B7D@bora.com>


At 11:25 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>"...What are N-Grams? N-Gram Analysis is a a method patented by the NSA
..."
>
>"You spooks are a bunch of gray, snivelling, alcoholic, Aldrich Ames
>lookalikes driving around in your rusty Toyotas."

Perhaps, but this does not negate the discriminative value of n-grams.




From SubscribeMail at advanced.visitbrightstar.com  Mon Dec 10 13:01:01 2001
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Date: 10 Dec 2001 21:01:01 -0000
Subject: Please CONFIRM your SUBSCRIPTION to our list
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From tbr at bora.com  Mon Dec 10 21:01:04 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:01:04 -0800
Subject: OT Kleist's "Michael Kohlhaas"
Message-ID: <3C159310.D2FC085A@bora.com>


At 09:07 PM 12/10/01 -0500, Agent Faustine wrote:
>In case you haven't read it, here's a partial synopsis of Heinrich von
>Kleist's "Michael Kohlhaas", written in 1810....
>
>In Michael Kohlhaas, Heinrich von Kleist tells the grim story of how a
>relatively small injustice escalates almost into civic insurrection. It
is the
>story of the wealthy horse trader Michael Kohlhaas.

Sounds like copyright infringement on Keyzer Soze's story.

Or various future characters..




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec 10 21:04:04 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:04:04 -0800
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011210210404.009b1100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:48 PM 12/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> To rip the coin, the passenger gives the taxi driver t = s^e1, along
>> with x.  The driver can verify that t^e2 = s^(e1*e2) = s^e1 = x mod n
>> which tells him that it is a real coin.  He also sends (t, x) to the
>> bank, which verifies that no such x has been spent before (no double
>> spending) and also stores x as a ripped coin such that only the driver
>> can spend it.
>
>Who pays for all this checking? Not only does this require the taxi driver
>to have a considerable store of computational and algorithmic 'equipment'
>but he's also got to have a comm channel to the bank.
>
>This don't sound cheap to execute at all...

Oh, you mean like the $5 charge that Mastercard/Visa charge merchants...

this *corroborates* the stuff Hettinga has been saying about it being
cheaper to use certain kinds of payment than others.



 






  







From gnu at toad.com  Mon Dec 10 21:04:31 2001
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:04:31 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To:  
Message-ID: <200112110504.VAA27366@toad.com>


Anonymous said:
> The major problem that holds back the development of FreeS/WAN is
> with its management.  [Management that cares more about sitting on
> its pulpit, than getting useful software into the hands of people.]
> Unless things have changed recently, they still won't accept
> contributions from the US.  This makes no sense.  GPG is shipping
> with every Linux distribution I know of, and the German's take
> contributions from the US.

(From the pulpit:)

Once we kick John Asscroft's unconstitutional ash outta town, bush
George Bust along with more than a thousand other innocents, and
eliminate the spectre of Judd Gregg and other retrograde stalinists
're-regulating' US crypto, then we'll think about polluting the
precious bodily fluids of worldwide freeware privacy protection with
the stench of US crypto policy.  It probably won't happen for a few months.

Or hadn't you noticed that the US government is not in much of a mood
to follow the constitution or to tolerate dissent or privacy among the
sleepy sheeplike citizens?  They're doing their best to stamp that
radical stuff out right here in the USSA, let alone let it cross the
border into parts of the world that they don't have firmly under their
thumb.  Less than 100% support for every paranoid and senseless twitch
of the current Administration is a demonstration not not only of
treason but of active support for terrorism, which everyone knows is a
terrible thing except when the US or Israel or Great Britain does it.
Anybody reading this mailing list is already gonna be first up against
the wall once the joy of arresting immigrant movers as 'terrorists'
fades, and spying on 'domestic political groups' become fair game.
Your packets are already in the lint screen on that big, big vacuum
cleaner.  And our new policy of maximum sentences for trivial
'crimes', like forgetting to file some form, reduces the expense and
bother of actually trying suspects for the crimes that the agencies
suspect them of.  Of course you can confront your accusers!  Did you or
did you not jaywalk across Route 1 last July, Mr. May?

> The primary kernel developers have been willing to integrate crypto
> into the kernel since the crypto regs were lowered.  It's the policy
> of no US contributions that's holding back Linux IPSEC.

The reason I started the IPSEC-for-Linux project those many years ago
was because Linux kernel releases used to be built in free countries,
unlike the releases of most other operating systems.  Now they aren't.
Oops.

Perhaps mr. or ms. 'anonymous' and the primary kernel developers
didn't spend seven years making a principled tilt at the windmill of
NSA's export controls.  We overturned them by a pretty thin margin.
The government managed to maneuver such that no binding precedents
were set: if they unilaterally change the regulations tomorrow to
block the export of public domain crypto, they wouldn't be violating
any court orders or any judicial decisions.  I.e. they are not BOUND
by the policy change.  They changed it "voluntarily", in order to
sneak out of the court cases by the back door.  Even today it is
sometimes said that once Dan Bernstein ends his court case (which
still continues today), the NSA is ready, willing, and able to slap
the controls right back on.  And it would take months or years in
court -- and lots more volunteer citizen money spent for freedom,
while the bastards spend tax money to lock us up -- to get the
controls removed again.  If the judges haven't changed their minds in
the meantime.

(You may have noticed that last month, the Second Circuit Court of
Appeals accpted Judge Kaplan's half-lies-half-truth judgment 3-0 in
the 2600 case appeal: Yes, absolutely, software is First Amendment
protected speech.  But no, somehow the First Amendment really doesn't
mean what it means elsewhere; of *course* they can regulate the
publication of software on flimsy grounds.  Like that sometime later,
somebody somewhere might potentially be somewhat hurt by something
somebody else does with the software, if we don't eliminate that
option by restricting the publication of that software now.  Suppose
the next crypto export court case happens in NY rather than CA?  EFF
would be proud to defend John Young and Perry Metzger, but all its
lawyers might be in prison, charged by John Asscroft with "aiding
terrorists by eroding our national unity and diminishing our
resolve".)

> IMHO: If Freeswan had never been created, an alternate, more mature
> implementation would already exist in the mainline Linux kernel.

Make my day.

	John Gilmore

PS: Of course, the only software worth wasting your time on comes from
those macho dudes of the U.S. of A.  Those furriners don't even know
how to speek the lingua proper, let alone write solid buggy code like
Microsoft.  High crypto math is all Greek to them.  It's just lucky
for Linus that he moved to the US, otherwise we'd all know his furrin
software was crap too, even tho he tricked us by cloning it from Bell Labs.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 10 18:07:41 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:07:41 -0500
Subject: OT Kleist's "Michael Kohlhaas"
Message-ID: <200112110207.VAA30167@mail.lokmail.net>

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From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec 10 21:13:23 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:13:23 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011210203527.009bab80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011210211323.009c4c40@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:16 PM 12/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
>not what somebody else thinks it's worth.

Merit is inevitably judged by "somebody else".  And discriminating
on the basis of merit is tautologically discriminatory.

D'oh.



 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec 10 21:38:20 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:38:20 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011210211323.009c4c40@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011210213820.009c71e0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:33 PM 12/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
>> Merit is inevitably judged by "somebody else".  And discriminating
>> on the basis of merit is tautologically discriminatory.
>
>Actually 'merit' isn't. Merit is measured in a meritocracy by the efficacy
>of the solution. That's a TECHNICAL measure, not emotional or social.

But who is the judge of the value of various measures? 


>Discrimination is inherently ILLOGICAL (ie emotional), which puts it in
>direct odds with the concept of 'merit'.

No, you're taking the PC distortion of the word.  Without discrimination
(of food vs. poison, or good vs. bad behavior for instance) you are dead.

Keep your immune system up.



 






  







From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Dec 10 21:42:36 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:42:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
Message-ID: <200112110542.fBB5gai08637@artifact.psychedelic.net>


There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against "evil."

McCarthyism meets Wounded Knee meets Mike Echols. :)

-----

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- A University of New Mexico history professor who
joked in class about the Sept. 11 attacks has been barred from teaching
freshmen for now, the school said Monday.

Professor Richard Berthold will also get a letter of reprimand and undergo
review, said Brian L. Foster, university provost.

The 55-year-old tenured professor told a freshman history class just after
the attacks that "anyone who can blow up the Pentagon has my vote."

Berthold has apologized for his comment, which he called "an incredibly
stupid joke." He did not immediately return a phone call Monday.

Berthold stayed off campus for a brief period while police investigated
obscene and threatening calls to the history department. He also said he
was assaulted in front of his home.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 19:48:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:48:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> To rip the coin, the passenger gives the taxi driver t = s^e1, along
> with x.  The driver can verify that t^e2 = s^(e1*e2) = s^e1 = x mod n
> which tells him that it is a real coin.  He also sends (t, x) to the
> bank, which verifies that no such x has been spent before (no double
> spending) and also stores x as a ripped coin such that only the driver
> can spend it.

Who pays for all this checking? Not only does this require the taxi driver
to have a considerable store of computational and algorithmic 'equipment'
but he's also got to have a comm channel to the bank.

This don't sound cheap to execute at all...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Dec 10 12:50:24 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:50:24 +0100 (CET)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
Message-ID: <0b6888eaf9844ca38eee29b1d175ab8f@dizum.com>


John Young writes, regarding Assassination Politics:

> AP is a touchy topic for Cypherpunks, whoever they may
> be. It is likely the USA is attempting to link AP to Cypherpunks
> for prosecution, so not many will want to talk about the
> topic.

Cypherpunks pioneered the use of encryption and anonymity for many
purposes, but one of them was precisely this: to allow discussion of
forbidden subjects.

> So my opinion is that AP is a lure set out by the authorities
> to entrap the unwary, Cypherpunks among them. I believe 
> that Bell and Johnson have been, and are continuing to be, 
> a part of that lure, whether witting or unwitting.

That's bullshit.  Surely you can't deny that AP was conceived by
Bell exactly as what it was claimed to be, a tool to be used against
government agents who overstep their authority and violate the rights of
American citizens.  (And as an important consequence it would therefore
encourage governments to behave legally and respectfully towards their
citizens, as they should.)  Bell certainly did not conceive of AP as a
way of entrapping cypherpunks.  He didn't even know about cypherpunks
when he came up with the idea.

> AP is highy suspect, and becoming more so as it gets
> additional promotion, not by whatever adherents it may
> have but by its opponents. I expect AP to be used to
> advance the anti-terrorism industry now booming.
>
> Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable
> technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke
> on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt.

Total bullshit again.  Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, but so do
most other elements of the cypherpunk vision.  Would you say that crypto
anarchy, information black markets, and commerce among pseudonyms are
"a joke"?  These are just as hypothetical as AP at present.  It's entirely
possible that some form of anonymous cash will be developed in the
next few years, and once that happens AP will be trivial to implement.
It's far from a joke, it is a very real possibility.

AP is part of the dark side of the cypherpunk dream and it must be faced
rather than evaded.  The real problem with AP is not that it would be
illegal, because much of what cypherpunks call for is presently illegal.
Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.  There
are no checks and balances.  It is the height of folly to suppose that
AP would be used only against those whom cypherpunks themselves oppose,
like corrupt government agents.  AP could be used against anyone who
has a high profile.

If AP were implemented, there is no question but that Jim Bell would
be one of the first targets!  All those people who found himself on
his list, along with their heirs and successors, would want revenge.
Everyone involved with the assassinations would be anonymous except
Bell himself, making him the most prominent target of their wrath.
Other notable supporters of crypto anarchy would follow soon, such as
cypherpunk founders May and Hughes.  The people involved with the digital
cash would be targets as well, and so on.

Despite these unpleasant facts, once digital cash exists, AP will be
inevitable, along with many other forms of anonymous murder-for-hire.
Cypherpunks have discussed these possibilities from the very beginning.
To pretend that AP is somehow outside of the scope of cypherpunk thinking,
a hoax or joke perpetrated by outsiders as a lure, is just absurd.
With crypto anarchy you have to take the bad with the good.

What, then, is the solution to survival in a world of assassins at large?
It is simple, and it is in fact the same as the solution to the problem
of how to discuss AP in a world in which even mentioning it could get
you arrested, the problem which led to John Young's dissembling above.
Perhaps the alert reader will be able to conceive of the solution for
himself.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 20:08:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:08:15 -0600
Subject: The Fading Altruism of Open Source Development
Message-ID: <3C1586AF.3D12BE34@ssz.com>


http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue6_12/lancashire/
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 20:35:39 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:35:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211105738.00a42aa0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



Look into Pantheism (but avoid 'Scientific Pantheism' it isn't)...

On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> "A lesson to be learned by the politico-religio-righteous."
> 
> Thanks jya,leads me to my next riff.Religon.The huge success of ayn 
> rantings 'objectivist' philosophy arguably
> led to the ripe fruitiness of scientology.
> Well what the hells stopping us?
> The bells rung for everything faith based up to executions(jokingly) 
> Churchs still tax exempt? Good.
> Still get your religious peyote? Yep.
> WTF are we spinning our wheels here for.Change the name to cyphersaints 
> immediately and make it cryptoheaven
> not cryptoanarchy.
> On the holy bible the cyphernomicon I swear to practise no usury in my 
> ecash dealings and may AP strike me dead should I sin.mattd.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec 10 23:08:04 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:08:04 -0800
Subject: eCash reported mortally wounded...
In-Reply-To: <2ccae0c4f1f4a0391d91944a0067b932@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011210230412.04097668@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 05:52 AM 12/11/2001 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>Lucky Green wrote:
> > Eugene wrote:
> > > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Lucky Green wrote:
> > >
> > > > --Lucky, waiting patiently for 2005.
> > >
> > > Patent expiration date? Which one?
> >
> > US Patent 4759063 "Blind Signature Systems" will expire on July 19,
> > 2005. Given that this is a Tuesday and taking into account that whoever
> > may own the patents at that time is not about to file a patent
> > infringement suit on Monday, the last day the patent is valid, I hereby
> > announce a patent expiration party at my place on Saturday, July 16
> > 2005.
>
>No need to wait so long for ecash implementations.  Ben Laurie's Lucre
>software uses Wagner blinding, which is a non-signature based blinding
>system.  The coin can only be verified by the bank, contrary to the
>definition of a digital signature, so the blind signature patent does
>not apply.  Read more at http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/.

No need to wait at all.  There was never any serious reason to license the 
Chaum blinding patents upon which eCash rested. They applied only to the 
client and their use was or could be made invisible to the mint. Software 
patents, including Chaum's, are not enforceable in a number of western 
nations (e.g., Australia, South Africa and New Zealand). Therefore, the 
development and release of client software with user selectable blinding, 
with appropriate UI warnings regarding possible patent issues depending 
upon client jurisdiction, from these locales should not run afoul of 
international patent laws.

steve




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:14:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:14:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011210210404.009b1100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> this *corroborates* the stuff Hettinga has been saying about it being
> cheaper to use certain kinds of payment than others.

Actually Hettinga's observation is rather obvious. The concept that all
exchanges will cost the same is rather self-destructing.

Nothing newe there.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From gnu at toad.com  Mon Dec 10 23:15:25 2001
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:15:25 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: <00da01c181ff$c0e4d3b0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO> 
Message-ID: <200112110715.XAA00591@toad.com>


> FreeS/WAN occupies a position very rarely found in efficient markets,
> such as open source software. While the position is rarely encountered,
> it can nonetheless exist: I believe that FreeS/WAN is a natural
> monopoly.
> ...
> But for whatever reasons, FreeS/WAN has been holding such a natural
> monopoly position in by far the largest market in which I have ever seen
> such a beast. I find this fascinating. I wonder if economists will some
> day study the case to determine what factors brought it about.

I doubt it.

The Linux kernels released by Linus Torvalds hold a similar 'natural
monopoly' over every other variant of free operating system kernel.  What
could explain this puzzling economic phenomenon?  Certainly the BSD folks
have been puzzled by it.

I mean, half a dozen people have rewritten 'grep', because it's just
not that hard.  And troff was cloned even though it was hard, because
the original was such a piece of unmaintainable (and nonfree) crud.
But you and you and you are all free to make your own variant of the
Linux kernel, and keep maintaining it and throwing in improvements.
Why don't you?  Even big companies keep following Linus's version.

Perhaps the puzzle results from someone who does a sufficiently hard
job, sufficiently well, that nobody who is actually capable of
competing WANTS to compete.  They have better things to do.

What puzzles me is how the mediocre X Window System has attracted no
competitors.  Yes, it's a hard job supporting all those hardware
variants by all those lovely undocumented proprietary companies.  But
the X model sucks on SO many fronts, breaking typeahead/mouseahead,
performance, display independence, having dozens of puzzling and
incompatible window managers, etc.

And have you looked at the 'object oriented' stuff layered on top of it?

  743 root      17   0 50896  44M  6320 S     0.7 36.0 15292m X
  874 gnu       11   0 14648  10M  3148 S     0.3  8.6  13:30 gnome-terminal

That's a 50Mbyte process (44M resident) of window drivers, and a
14Mbyte (10M resident) terminal window that I'm typing into.  I've
seen the terminal window get as high as 60 Mbytes, with more than 50
resident.

	John




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:16:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:16:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011210203527.009bab80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 09:53 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
> >Tim said its an openly elitist list 
> >once.
> 
> Yes, so is an university.  A meritocracy is necessarily discriminatory.
> 
> Deal with it.

Don't confuse having a high standard of excellence with simple egotism
(which is the majority of the cases with both your examples).

And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
not what somebody else thinks it's worth.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:33:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:33:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011210211323.009c4c40@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 11:16 PM 12/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
> >not what somebody else thinks it's worth.
> 
> Merit is inevitably judged by "somebody else".  And discriminating
> on the basis of merit is tautologically discriminatory.

Actually 'merit' isn't. Merit is measured in a meritocracy by the efficacy
of the solution. That's a TECHNICAL measure, not emotional or social.

Discrimination is inherently ILLOGICAL (ie emotional), which puts it in
direct odds with the concept of 'merit'.

Further, a meritocracy makes judgements about worth based on the solution
not the source. Source filtering is inherent in discrimination, hence they
can't be synonymous or layered.

> D'oh.

Doh indeed.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Mon Dec 10 14:47:55 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:47:55 +0100
Subject: in praise of gold
Message-ID: <6ce3470ddd680b351ad9e983c8442b58@mix.winterorbit.com>


[A repost of an earlier message regarding gold]

> It's true - so why not say it? A hundred years ago, the Federal Reserve
> "dollar" didn't exist, and a hundred years hence it won't be there. The
> gold will still exist. Which is the better standard of value?
>
> Marc de Piolenc

If you really want to look at 100 year time scales, gold is completely
unsuitable as a standard of value.

Over the next 100 years it is highly likely that we will develop new
technologies which will totally change what we think of as valuable.
Nanotechnology and similar methods will allow atom by atom restructuring
of matter.  Gold and other elements can be extracted from sea water
or from the soil.  Space mining will open access to mineral stores on
other planets.  Low cost, solar powered low-energy orbits can bring
these resources back to earth.

With all the changes that we are going to be seeing over the next
100 years, what are the chances that one particular metal is going to
turn out to have anywhere near the same value that it has today?  It is
far more likely that the relative prices of all the elements will vary
greatly from what we have known in the past.

Look at a chart of the abundances of the elements in the earth's crust,
and in the terrestrial planets.  These represent "supply" of matter in the
future.  Demand will come from how useful these elements are in supplying
people's needs.  Carbon may well turn out to be a highly valuable element
due to its great flexibility, strength, its biological role, and its
relative rarity.  Diamonds will be no more valuable than soot, of course,
but both will be excellent raw materials for nanotech construction.

Or they may not.  We don't know enough now.  But we can certainly say
that any money based on the rarity of an elemental commodity faces the
prospect of being highly unstable as we move into the nanotech regime.

On the other hand, fiat moneys can be based on contract and mutual
agreement.  With cryptographic protection, account balances are
transferred securely.  And as multiple money issuers (the US Fed among
others) compete in an international market, the global money supply will
be self adjusting, as predicted by economic models.

This is the true foundation for an economically stable future.  Atoms are
the past; bits are the future.  Money is becoming information, with
checks and balances already in place to control the global money supply.
In contrast, basing the future economic system on the spatial distribution
of metallic atoms would be foolish.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec 10 23:57:30 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:57:30 -0800
Subject: Customer Acts Odd? U.S. Wants to Know
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011210234332.039c68f0@idiom.com>


At 09:54 AM 12/10/2001 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/10/national/10CUST.html?searchpv=nytToday&pagewanted=print
>WASHINGTON, Dec. 9 - Federal agents are planning to fan out across the
>country this week in an effort to recruit American businesses in the war on
>terror, urging companies to notify the government of suspicious customers. 
>[...]
>The terrorists' shopping list, the Customs Service says, includes missiles,
>grenades, grenade launchers and other munitions; aircraft parts; computer
>encryption devices; and components of biological, chemical and nuclear
>weapons, as well as items that might be used to manufacture or deliver 
>such weapons. [...]
>..... certain signs of suspicious activity, including these:
>...
>6A buyer has little or no understanding of the product he or she is
>requesting or the commercial activity in which he or she is supposedly 
>engaged.
...
>6A buyer has no interest in the customer service offered with a product or
>rejects the manufacturer's offer to train employees in proper use of the 
>product.

Suspicious?  Those are simply *routine* in the telecom and computer 
businesses :-)
You'd think that they'd find it suspicious of customers *did* read all the 
manuals,
closely, in great detail.  It's less common now after the dot-com crash
than during the heat of tulip-bulb mania, but if customers really 
understood technology
there'd be less need for data sales people to bring along systems engineers
to wave their hands and tell them what to think, or for companies to hire
lots of customer support people to explain how to reset the coffee-cup 
holders on PCs,
or for trade rags and internet sites to keep hyping new trends.

Meanwhile, the technologies and economics are constantly changing in the 
business,
so even if a customer or vendor understood what they were doing three 
months ago,
that doesn't mean they still understand it today.

Now, I don't sell missiles or grenade launchers, but computer encryption 
devices
are part of my stock in trade - they're letting customers move from dedicated
private lines and semi-shared frame relay and ATM networks to shared 
Internet connections
and still get the privacy and security they got from the more expensive 
networks,
and tools for cracking computer security devices are also routine 
commercial product,
just like pressure gauges for checking car tires or chemical emissions 
detectors for
car exhaust.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 22:18:20 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:18:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: <200112110504.VAA27366@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, John Gilmore wrote:

> NSA's export controls.  We overturned them by a pretty thin margin.
> The government managed to maneuver such that no binding precedents
> were set: if they unilaterally change the regulations tomorrow to
> block the export of public domain crypto, they wouldn't be violating
> any court orders or any judicial decisions.  I.e. they are not BOUND
> by the policy change.

That's not accurate. There have been several court rulings finding source
code and such protected by the 1st. This would provide a lever that was
not there previously.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 00:26:47 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:26:47 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <3C149B18.2BED906C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3C1552C7.40.D4C31B@localhost>


    --
On 10 Dec 2001, at 11:23, Ken Brown wrote:
> About 3 years ago I found out that I could understand some 
> of your postings by exchanging the  words "socialism" for 
> "capitalism" when ever they occurred -  you fell for the 
> Soviet lie that called their oppressive state capitalism by 
> the name of "socialism"...

If that was a lie, then it is odd that until Khruschev
renounced Stalin, the entire left fell for it.  I have
frequently commented on Chomsky's extraordinary servility
towards Soviet foreign policy.

Even to this day the socialists white wash Sihanouk, because 
though he was murdering real and suspected communists 
internally, he served Soviet foreign policy in external 
affairs.


    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     RmPRRwv70zSuTkYU+smeyfgtiK/+vkrGKoiVI4ew
     4eGRNHwI044Lhif5a65dau79zOgEKfauvhe1kMCrB




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Mon Dec 10 17:46:04 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 02:46:04 +0100 (CET)
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
Message-ID: 


"George" writes:

> Th idea is,  when buying some good or service with
> digital cash,  the customer first forwards the cash to the vendor
> in some transformed way such that the vendor 
> can't yet spend it, but can verify that it is
> good cash of the correct amount, and that 
> the customer will no longer be able to spend it.
>
> The idea is, if the vendor follows through on his side,
> the customer will supply the additional information the
> vendor will need to redeem the cash.  The customer can still
> rip the vendor off by refusing to do so, but he has no incentive,
> the money's already gone for him.  Conversely,  an
> unscrupulous "vendor" could in principle trick a customer
> into throwing away money on nothing,  but he would gain no profit
> in doing so.

Yep, see Marcus Jakobsson, "Ripping Coins for Fair Exchange",
http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/users/markus/rip.ps.  The idea is analogous to
tearing a $100 bill in half and giving half to the taxi driver so he'll
wait while you go take care of some business.  The two halves together
are worth $100, but either alone is worthless.  Once you give him the
first half you're out $100, so you have no incentive to cheat him by
not giving the other half when you come back.

A simplification of Jakobsson's scheme works with Chaumian blinded cash
where the bank's RSA exponent e = e1*e2, where e1 > 1 is an odd integer
and e2 is prime.

The passenger (in the taxi example) withdrew the coin by choosing a
value x which had some special structure, blinding it and getting a
signature s on x such that s^e = x, mod n.  To spend the coin normally
he would reveal x and s which the bank would accept as it satisfies this
relation.

To rip the coin, the passenger gives the taxi driver t = s^e1, along
with x.  The driver can verify that t^e2 = s^(e1*e2) = s^e1 = x mod n
which tells him that it is a real coin.  He also sends (t, x) to the
bank, which verifies that no such x has been spent before (no double
spending) and also stores x as a ripped coin such that only the driver
can spend it.

When the passenger comes back he gives the taxi driver s, the real RSA
signature, so the driver can now spend the coin for good.  The passenger
can't renege and spend the coin himself because the driver has put a
block on that x value in the database.




From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Mon Dec 10 19:54:06 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:54:06 +0100
Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
Message-ID: 


On Sunday 09 December 2001 07:32 pm, Lucky Green  wrote:
> The big question is: will FreeS/WAN latest release after some 4 or 5 
> years of development finally both compile and install cleanly on 
> current versions of Red Hat Linux, FreeS/WAN's purported target 
> platform?

The latest releases of both Suse and Mandrake are both able to install kernels with Freeswan already integrated.  It's a little newer addition to Mandrake, so you may want to use Suse.  Suse makes it easy to set up encrypted file systems and other nice features.

The major problem that holds back the development of FreeS/WAN is with its management.  [Management that cares more about sitting on its pulpit, than getting useful software into the hands of people.] Unless things have changed recently, they still won't accept contributions from the US.  This makes no sense.  GPG is shipping with every Linux distribution I know of, and the German's take contributions from the US.

The primary kernel developers have been willing to integrate crypto into the kernel since the crypto regs were lowered.  It's the policy of no US contributions that's holding back Linux IPSEC.

IMHO:  If Freeswan had never been created, an alternate, more mature implementation would already exist in the mainline Linux kernel.

--Anonymous




From silveredge18 at mediaone.net  Tue Dec 11 05:18:44 2001
From: silveredge18 at mediaone.net (Early Bird)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 05:18:44
Subject: 2 Airfare vouchers for $49.95
Message-ID: <200112111033.EAA05555@einstein.ssz.com>


Sign up today and receive two round trip airfare vouchers, open dated for 18 months!  You will also 
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From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Mon Dec 10 20:52:22 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 05:52:22 +0100
Subject: eCash reported mortally wounded...
Message-ID: <2ccae0c4f1f4a0391d91944a0067b932@mix.winterorbit.com>


Lucky Green wrote:
> Eugene wrote:
> > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Lucky Green wrote:
> > 
> > > --Lucky, waiting patiently for 2005.
> > 
> > Patent expiration date? Which one?
>
> US Patent 4759063 "Blind Signature Systems" will expire on July 19,
> 2005. Given that this is a Tuesday and taking into account that whoever
> may own the patents at that time is not about to file a patent
> infringement suit on Monday, the last day the patent is valid, I hereby
> announce a patent expiration party at my place on Saturday, July 16
> 2005.

No need to wait so long for ecash implementations.  Ben Laurie's Lucre
software uses Wagner blinding, which is a non-signature based blinding
system.  The coin can only be verified by the bank, contrary to the
definition of a digital signature, so the blind signature patent does
not apply.  Read more at http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/.




From 12 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 11 06:13:12 2001
From: 12 at yahoo.com (12 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:13:12
Subject: Technical Consulting Services
Message-ID: <161.431403.529046@AO.O>



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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:35:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:35:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: <200112110715.XAA00591@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, John Gilmore wrote:

> What puzzles me is how the mediocre X Window System has attracted no
> competitors.  Yes, it's a hard job supporting all those hardware

Dude, there are HUNDREDS of alternate GUI front-ends (the vast majority
are not compatible with X (aka MIT's Athens - there's your clue as to its
popularity). Unfortunately they don't get the technical backing to get a
significant 'bootstrap' percentage in the market up front. In other words,
when X got started back in the 80's there were no other GUI's that were
nearly that advanced. So people used it. By the time the market expanded
the number of alternative GUI's had a much harder time to get into the
market.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:45:32 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:45:32 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Free Software And Its Revolutionary Social Implications
Message-ID: <3C15FFEC.B77D2074@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/12/10/2225219.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:47:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:47:21 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Google Expands Usenet Archive to 20 Years
Message-ID: <3C160059.39C693CF@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/11/0727218.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:48:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:48:54 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | World Govs Choose Linux For Security & More
Message-ID: <3C1600B6.3DF75BFD@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/11/0132213.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 11 06:52:57 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:52:57 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011210213820.009c71e0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011211065257.009bf970@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:13 AM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>No, I'm not. 'discrimination' requires(!) 'prejudice'. Prejudice is the

In Choate prime, perhaps.  For the rest of us, measurement (e.g., 
the redness vs greenness of a fruit) lets us discriminate useful from not.





 






  







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:54:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:54:10 -0600
Subject: Court: Online Scribes Protected
Message-ID: <3C1601F2.BF16D81B@ssz.com>


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48996,00.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 11 07:00:14 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:00:14 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200112110715.XAA00591@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011211070014.009c0650@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:35 AM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Dude, there are HUNDREDS of alternate GUI front-ends (the vast majority
>are not compatible with X (aka MIT's Athens - there's your clue as to its
>popularity). Unfortunately they don't get the technical backing to get a
>significant 'bootstrap' percentage in the market up front. In other words,
>when X got started back in the 80's there were no other GUI's that were
>nearly that advanced. So people used it. By the time the market expanded
>the number of alternative GUI's had a much harder time to get into the
>market.
>

MIT's project *Athena* developed X because they had an equal mix of DEC
and [I forget -IBM?] workstations and so developed a device independent
display server.  That it was subject to code bloat is regrettable but its use
is not mandatory.



 






  







From machine at twinstuff.com  Tue Dec 11 02:38:36 2001
From: machine at twinstuff.com (machine at twinstuff.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:38:36 -0300
Subject: Plan Canje Unico !!
Message-ID: <93986-2200112211103836900@twinstuff.com>



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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 05:52:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:52:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <20011211133517.21136.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: 



On 11 Dec 2001, D.Popkin wrote:

> > Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
> 
> Worse than the secret ballot?

AP *IS* a form of secret ballot.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 13:43:04 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:43:04 +1100
Subject: Jamesd on me is like soviet propaganda
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211082341.00a0a6c0@pop.useoz.com>


The trouble is that a lot of socialists call themselves
anarchists either as a simple cynical lie:
(parody of standard commie liar)
: : "This time the state really will wither away.
: : Trust us. We are different. Once we have total
: : power over you and yours you will love it."(jamesd,extract)


Yes,so? They are quite easy to expose and I pursue chomsky,Klein and others 
to pin them down.

(mattd extract)

The above is about 1 week old ,(Ive made  progress in tracing links between
klein and chompsky with the ISO.)

Well now jamesd comes up with..."except as mattd has recently done -- by citing
Chomsky as evidence for the truthfulness of Chomsky, much
after the fashion of a Christian who cites the bible as proof
of the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus as proof of the
infallibility of the bible."

When all Id done was ask cypherpunks to compare and contrast jamesd and 
chompsky on the specific
question of spain.
Those using the word anarchy might have some interest as might those 
wondering about the truthfulness (or sanity)
of cypherpunks regular jamesd.

I might just say at this point that I dont cite jim bell in the fashion of 
a christian...etc or indeed anyone.Im a skeptic as well as an 
anarchist."good business is where you find it"




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 09:09:07 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:09:07 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda 
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3C147AFA.13899.362FBE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C15CD33.4142.3370D1@localhost>


    --
James A Donald
> > And I have given numerous examples [of Chomsky 
> > misrepresenting his sources], to which no one has  
> > replied, except as mattd has recently done -- by citing  
> > Chomsky as evidence for the truthfulness of Chomsky, much 
> > after the fashion of a Christian who cites the bible as 
> > proof of the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus as proof of the 
> > infallibility of the bible.

On 10 Dec 2001, at 15:31, Jim Choate wrote:
> [text deleted]
>
> Not true. I've asked several times for clarification and 
> never(!!!) received anything from you in responce.

I just gave you a response, which you just deleted.   I may
not have given previous examples to you personally, but this
issue (bogus and misleading citations by Chomsky) has been
discussed on this list many times.

> I'll look into the text I deleted since it will take a few 
> minutes to review. I'll let you know what I think of your 
> analysis of Chomsky's views.

You did not ask for an analysis of Chomsky's views.  You 
asked for an example of Chomsky giving bogus citations.  I 
gave you some examples.  In your response, you will ignore 
those examples, and accuse me of misrepresenting Chomsky's 
views.

The fact that you are already preparing to change the subject 
shows that in your heart, you already knew that Chomsky's 
very impressive sounding citations were fictional.  

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     i6sJyKoEGKQnIBnjHkjh/Y2u1wf/omhSfIi6xIZW
     4/iQ7+vyJLulN7UttuCfQ2hNikb2qm3gqf+kGt7Jr




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 09:09:07 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:09:07 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <20011210145344.A21903@cluebot.com>
References: <3C1364B9.12109.C7FA8D@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com
  on Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 01:18:49PM -0800
Message-ID: <3C15CD33.16918.3370B3@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > For example the viewer sees CBU-15 described as nerve
> > gas. The viewer then sees Moorer and the interviewer
> > talking about a battle in Laos, then there is an editing
> > cut, and then the viewer sees:

On 10 Dec 2001, at 14:53, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I don't think your summary is correct. CNN hired an outside
> reviewer who came up with this report, which recommends
> retraction of the story but accuses the reporters of no
> malice: http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/02/tailwind.findings/

"No malice", not "no lies"

The reason he concludes "no malice" is that he concludes the
reporters really believed the US had used nerve gas, not
because he believes the reporters had truthfully reported the
evidence.  The edited Moorer seemingly admits to the use of
nerve gas, and another witness seemingly admits to personally
massacring civilians.  In the unedited versions, they do not.

The reason it was "no malice" is that the reporters actually
had some evidence -- but not evidence persuasive enough to
report on television.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     LU0N6i897F7dj1cMd1Rd3z4T8cvfH/3QdF6Yx98j
     4B2ygdObW0RForD1jMTcV2PBVSHc8W09z7xvkq3y9




From reinhold at world.std.com  Tue Dec 11 06:29:19 2001
From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:29:19 -0500
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:18 AM -0600 12/11/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, John Gilmore wrote:
>
>> NSA's export controls.  We overturned them by a pretty thin margin.
>> The government managed to maneuver such that no binding precedents
>> were set: if they unilaterally change the regulations tomorrow to
>> block the export of public domain crypto, they wouldn't be violating
>> any court orders or any judicial decisions.  I.e. they are not BOUND
>> by the policy change.
>
>That's not accurate. There have been several court rulings finding source
>code and such protected by the 1st. This would provide a lever that was
>not there previously.
>

In the most recent ruling, Universal v. Remerdez/Eric Corley 2600.com 
(00-9185), http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-cad.htm , the US Court of 
Appeals for the Second Circuit declined to overturn an injunction 
against the posting of DeCSS on the Internet. The Court held that 
software was speech, but did not enjoy the level of First Amendment 
protection accorded to pure speech because it is functional with 
little human intervention. This is a very disturbing precedent which 
I hope will be reversed on appeal, but given the post-9/11 mood and 
the limited technological understanding of most judges, I wouldn't 
count on it. Also I believe the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld export 
controls in the past, the First Amendment notwithstanding.

Having a body of open source crypto software that is not entangled by 
any U.S. input is not a foolish idea.  Surely there are good 
programers outside the U.S. who understand the importance of making 
FreeSWAN work seamlessly with Linux.


Arnold Reinhold



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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 14:35:37 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:35:37 +1100
Subject: AP Al Quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211092302.00a42eb0@pop.useoz.com>


I hope tech tv does a story on this that enlightens the victorian police 
and they return the dell cs latitude they stole from me.If AP is illegal I 
want my day in court.I mantain,with bell,that 'AP' comes with the territory 
and cant be outlawed without 1984 type totalitarianism.Some type of AP will 
help usher in ecash and crypto anarchy will take off.Peace,luv and happiness.

mattd AKA proffr1 at fuckmicrosoft.com

Subject: Macedon ranges Guardian.fri.june 8.page 3 headline story.
M1 PROTESTER GIVEN BAIL-BUT OTHER POLICE INTERESTED
A Kyneton man involved in the recent M1 protest in melb.has been accused of 
promoting what is
reffered to as 'assasination politics',and is said to have come to the 
notice of the United States
Secret Service and the Australian Federal Police.
Assasination politics,according to the police,is the practice of nominating 
a person for
assasination,inviting the general public to contribute money to a bank 
account and funding
the assasination with the proceeds.
Police charged Matthew Stephen Taylor last Friday over the vandelism of a 
McDonalds fast food outlet
during the anti-globalisation protest on may 1.
Charges are also pending against Taylor in relation to his alleged Internet 
activities.
On Monday Taylor,46 of Baynton st,Kyneton applied for bail at Kyneton 
Magistrates Court.Taylor faced
two counts of criminal damage and three counts of acting in a manner 
prejudicial to the good
order of a police jail.
As Taylor was led into court,he protested his innocence and described 
Bendigo remand where he
had spent the weekend as a 'hell hole'Inside the court he adressed 
Magistrate William Gibb as
"Your Highness"
He told Mr Gibb he disagreed with his position on drugs and compared it 
with the 1930s prohibition
on alcohol.He was reffering to the previous defendant who appeared on drug 
related charges.
Taylor was supported in court by his father,Ken Taylor,a Mount Macedon poet 
who was recently
awarded the Kenneth Slessor Prize for poetry at the New South Wales 
Premiers Awards.
Prosecutor,Senior Constable Martin Holland said Taylors application for 
bail was not opposed
but he asked Mr Gibb to impose six conditions.
The first condition was "not to post threatening text on the internet 
toward any person whether
located in Australia or elsewhere in the world"
Sen.Const Holland said Taylor had made threats on the internet and a 
computor from Taylors
Kyneton adress had been seized and conveyed to Melbourne for examination.
Sen.Cons.Holland defended the wording of the first condition by saying it 
was not a blanket
ban on all internet useage.
The second condition prohibited Taylor from participating in assasination 
politics.
...The third condition was not to engage any other person in the first two 
things.
The remaining conditions included a prohibition on Taylor participating in 
Melbourne
demonstrations.
Sen.Const.Holland said police had been watching Taylors activities on the 
website
www.indymedia.org with some interest.He said anyone could download 
information onto the
site.He said Taylor was known on the site as the 'nutty proffessor'and had 
posted a
message on the site to chief commissioner of victoria Police,Christine 
Nixon.Sen.Const.
Holland said the message stated that "...should you persist with this folly 
one of your
number will be selected for retirement,i.e.execution."
The prosecution called Senior Constable Nicholas Conte who said he had 
investigated video
and photographic footage from the May 1 protest,including video footage of 
Taylor in an
interview with Herald Sun journalist Peter Mickleburough.In it 
Sen.Conts.Conte said Taylor
reffered to himself as "Robin Banks."He said the name was on the indymedia 
website and was
traced back to Taylors adress by the computor Crime Unit.
He explained the concept of assasination politics to the court and said he 
believed it
originated in the United States where a man named Bell is currently under 
sentence in
relation to it.He said based on comments Taylor had made on the internet he 
believed the
defendant was advertising and trying to gain support for assasination 
politics.
"He doesnt make any qualms about that."Sen.Const.Conte said.
Asked by Mr Gibb what the reality of all this was,Sen.Const.Conte replied 
that he could not
gauge the reality,he could only look at the probability.
Under cross-examination from defense solicitor,Mr Cameron 
Ford,Sen.Const.Conte conceded
he did not know if assasination politics had ever resulted in an 
assasination or attempted
assasination.He said the investigation was continuing,with the Computor 
Crime Squad yet to
look at the content of Taylor's computor files.
Sen.Const.Holland said Taylors activities had attracted the attention of 
the US Secret Service
and Australian Federal police.
Mr Gibb said he did not doubt it,but expressed reservations about the 
conditions proposed for
Taylor's bail.
"It just seems to be a nonsense.Im being asked to impose all these 
conditions that bare no
relevance to the charges,"he said.
Mr Ford said the internet was something Taylor lives on and spends a great 
deal of time on.
"He would agree to not post threatening text on the internet,but that was 
as far as he was
prepared to go,"he said.
Mr Gibb released Taylor on bail with the condition that he not post 
threatening text on the
internet and continue to reside at his adress in Baynton 
street,Kyneton.Taylor was bailed to
appear before the Melbourne Magistrates Court on August 16.
END
A letter to this paper resulted in their publishing the further information 
that the police had
alleged me to be an anarchist where I stated that I was a may day 
celebrant(not m1 protestor)
to commemorate the judicial murder of the Chicago martyrs.several 
anarchists framed and hung in
Chicago's haymarket affair.I indicated that I was proud to be an anarchist 
and it was not illegal
to be one.This was cut from the main story for some reason.(copy of letter 
available on request
was published 1 week after story above.)Another local paper issued a 
clarification about me afterI rang them as they had described me as an M1 
protester.Spelling in the above article is 'as is'.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 14:53:04 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:53:04 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211094041.00a51de0@pop.useoz.com>


"Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst. There are 
no checks and balances. It is the height of folly to suppose that AP would 
be used only against those whom cypherpunks themselves oppose, like corrupt 
government agents. AP could be used against anyone who has a high profile. 
If AP were implemented, there is no question but that Jim Bell would be one 
of the first targets! All those people who found himself on his list, along 
with their heirs and successors, would want revenge. Everyone involved with 
the assassinations would be anonymous except Bell himself, making him the 
most prominent target of their wrath. Other notable supporters of crypto 
anarchy would follow soon, such as cypherpunk founders May and Hughes. The 
people involved with the digital cash would be targets as well, and so on."
Extract from 'nomen nescio'
There are checks and balances,get a grip.Read the essay.Its self 
limiting.No one who is anonymous has anything to fear from AP.They do have 
a lot to fear from the rogue terror state USA. Bell and I are willing to 
die,maybe even cj.It will be worth it and theoretically no one need 
die.Would you start paying to have people killed risking the knowledge of 
that getting out?
There is a disgusting lack of belief in peoples common sense and decency on 
this list,refs to 'sheeple' etc.Tim said its an openly elitist list 
once.Thats distorted your view of humanity I think.Tim is too fearful of AP 
as one of the 4 horsemen.
I worry more about pedophiles,the end result of turbocharged 
capitalism.There are pedo brothel owners that need to be nominated for 
operation soft drill.I need their names.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Dec 11 07:00:03 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:00:03 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
Message-ID: 


> Eric Cordian[SMTP:emc at artifact.psychedelic.net] wrote:
> 
> There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
> publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against "evil."
> 
Where is it?

	[...]

> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> 
Peter Trei




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 15:02:41 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:02:41 +1100
Subject: Delinquent orifacer list
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211100139.00a51c40@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: RE: Delinquent officer list
Thank you for your Internet inquiry. Your message referred to a Jeff
Gordon. Is that an employee of the Washington State Department of Revenue?
Thank you,
Washington State Department of Revenue Information Center
-----Original Message-----
From: mattd [mailto:mattd at useoz.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:28 PM
To: communications at dor.wa.gov
Subject: Delinquent officer list

Agent jeff gordon is requested to supply the following...Tax Reporting
Account number Legal Entity name (individual, partnership or a corporation)
Original amount of the debt (the current amount due is not disclosable)
Date of lien filing Court where the tax lien was filed Date the business
license was revoked (if applicable)In relation to abuse of office in bell 
trial.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 15:17:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:17:36 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211100744.00a50eb0@pop.useoz.com>


"Jim Bell would have made AP an underground comedy if he had hung out with 
the time-wasterists at MIT rather than with the techno-commercialists. But 
I think his techno-political potboiler succeeds by making a comical wrong 
turn into the pokey, not once but twice, and inspiring CJ to follow, and 
mattd, and surely more to come as the AP PR machine gains momentum."
jya.
Jim seems to have missed out on teenagerhood.CJ seems not to have left 
teenagerhood.The boiling pot is like darwins discovery of evolution,It 
turned out to be a rediscovery of the findings of an obscure scottish 
orchardist.No matter,the theory was required for us all to progress/catch 
up/evolve further.The basics of AP are out,like bio-warfare and cant be 
suppressed short of a global panopticon.1984.everywhere,forever.I think we 
should talk about crypto-anarchy now.




From dimalinux at mail.ru  Tue Dec 11 10:27:22 2001
From: dimalinux at mail.ru (Dima Holodovich)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:27:22 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
Message-ID: <0GO6007W7Z3EYY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>

On Tuesday 11 December 2001 06:29 am, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:
>
> Having a body of open source crypto software that is not entangled by
> any U.S. input is not a foolish idea.

Not when the body of software is critical for Linux and the
widespread use of IPSec.  If you want widespread adoption
of IPSec in Linux, it needs to be in Linus' kernel.  In order
for this to happen, it is necessary for Linus and other people
physically located in the United States need to be able to
to contribute.  Once Freeswan is in Linus' kernel, it will
receive greater contribution and testing from both *inside*
AND *outside* the United States.

IMO:  The current Freeswan policy *encourages* law makers to
change the laws.  Many companies have an invested interest
in Linux.  Those companies are willing to spend lots of
money on lawyers to protect Linux.  If IPSec is not part of
Linux and is not in widespread Linux use, those companies
will not have the need to defend us.  We'll have kept crypto
out of the hands of the people all on our own -- without
the government's help.

Do you really think that great programs like GNU Privacy
Guard are going to magically disappear if the US government
changes their regulations?  Can they magically be erased
from the net, just because some US contributions were
made?

- Dima



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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 15:41:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:41:24 +1100
Subject: AP Al Quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211102541.00a0b130@pop.useoz.com>


"On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, mattd wrote: > There are checks and balances,get a 
grip.Read the essay. No, there are not. > Its self limiting.No one who is 
anonymous has anything to fear from AP. The only way that AP would be 
harmless to an anonymous person is if they were anonymous to EVERYONE. The 
entire point of AP is to provide a mechanism to reach ANYONE who might 
infringe upon your 'rights'. Trying to pitch AP as if only certain classes 
of people are at risk is simply ignorance (you didn't really read AP now 
did you) or else you intentionaly misrepresent. Either way, your point 
isn't valid."

Im not trying to pitch AP for anything.It applies to everyone not 
anonymous.Anybody can nominate anyone else.I was going to bring this up as 
sort of good indicator for 'reputations'.Negative reputations need 
rating,weighing and assessment too.
The name 'assasination politics' might be seen as a negative.I use 
operation soft drill.I think that though its paradoxical that threatening 
people could lead to world peace,as long as no ones died yet,its worth a 
shot.Theoretically no one has to die.
If I was saddam hussein and knew that a pool was accumulating on me.I might 
consider retirement.I dont think youve read the essay properly or you would 
remember the 'thermostat' and the 'car thieves' bits.The point is valid and 
the other point is not to panic.(seen any flying saucers lately?)




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Dec 11 08:07:23 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:07:23 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Google Expands Usenet Archive to 20 Years
Message-ID: 



> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com]
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/11/0727218.shtml
> 
What expanded capability for ego-surfing!
What expanded ability for better-forgotten posts to rise 
from the dead!

Seriously, this is neat. My earliest listed posting is from
28 November '82. The first mention of the cypherpunks list 
appears to be a post from Eric Hughes on 25 September '92, 
which refers to the list as 'recently formed'.

It's nostalgic to see all the bang!path addresses and .arpa
hosts.

Peter Trei






From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 16:07:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:07:47 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211105738.00a42aa0@pop.useoz.com>


"A lesson to be learned by the politico-religio-righteous."

Thanks jya,leads me to my next riff.Religon.The huge success of ayn 
rantings 'objectivist' philosophy arguably
led to the ripe fruitiness of scientology.
Well what the hells stopping us?
The bells rung for everything faith based up to executions(jokingly) 
Churchs still tax exempt? Good.
Still get your religious peyote? Yep.
WTF are we spinning our wheels here for.Change the name to cyphersaints 
immediately and make it cryptoheaven
not cryptoanarchy.
On the holy bible the cyphernomicon I swear to practise no usury in my 
ecash dealings and may AP strike me dead should I sin.mattd.




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 11 11:12:54 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:12:54 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | Google Expands Usenet Archive to 20 Years
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <1427428E-EE6B-11D5-9E82-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 08:07 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
> What expanded capability for ego-surfing!
> What expanded ability for better-forgotten posts to rise
> from the dead!
>
> Seriously, this is neat. My earliest listed posting is from
> 28 November '82. The first mention of the cypherpunks list
> appears to be a post from Eric Hughes on 25 September '92,
> which refers to the list as 'recently formed'.

Yes, it's great to see Google finally get around to doing what DejaNews 
said would be done.

Interestingly, I see a January 1992 use of the term "cypherpunks":

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22cypherpunks%22&hl=en&as_drrb=b&as_mind=
17&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1992&rnum=9&selm=1992Jan11.
232019.3543%40highlite.uucp

This predates Jude Milhon's naming of our list by about 9 months. And 
the earlier reference was not in the same context. Still, interesting.

A search on "cypherpunk" gives a history of the term and the early 
meetings at the Hackers Conference, the early CP meetings, etc.:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cypherpunk&hl=en&as_drrb=b&as_mind=17&as_minm=
5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1992&rnum=1&selm=1992Nov16.154438.
14092%40kumr.lns.com


The first mention of "cryptoanarchy" (the spelling I used then)  is in a 
9 January 1991 post from John Gilmore, citing my item on cryptoanarchy 
at the 1990 Hackers Conference:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cryptoanarchy&hl=en&as_drrb=b&as_mind=17&
as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1992&rnum=1&selm=14631%40hoptoad.
uucp

"
Cryptology, Computer Networks, and Big Brother
Tim May
slide presentation

	Views privacy and freedom from the point of view of "cryptoanarchy",
	in which cryptographic technology provides people the ability to
	communicate in privacy, despite the best efforts of governments
	to prevent their doing so.  Examines technical developments that
	led to it, and social possibilities that result from it.


(I wrote "The Cryptoanarchist Manifesto" for the 1988 Crypto Conference, 
where it was privately distributed to a few folks. I'd been using the 
term in talks around the Bay Area for several months prior to this, 
e.g., in a talk with Marc Stiegler, Phil Salin, Jim Bennett, Dave Ross, 
Chip Morningstar, Randy Farmer, and some others.)


--Tim May
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a 
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also 
into you." -- Nietzsche




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 16:25:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:25:50 +1100
Subject: latest from agent faustine
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211112125.00a46eb0@pop.useoz.com>


"...What are N-Grams? N-Gram Analysis is a a method patented by the NSA ..."

"You spooks are a bunch of gray, snivelling, alcoholic, Aldrich Ames 
lookalikes driving around in your rusty Toyotas."
mattkillthepresidentd.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 17:04:58 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:04:58 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211115536.00a55970@pop.useoz.com>


Anarchy was featured in an old 'High Times' issue,the one with jimmy carter 
snorting coke on the cover.
It was a pretty hacked synopsis of anarch hirstory,however it led to some 
hope that at least some synergies might spring up there.HT got banned 
and  now the 'tech tv'' are sniffing around.Laid off dot bombers whose 
yuppification nearly destroyed SF.They just asked for an interview,Im going 
to reluctantly if they stump up some sprucing up money.I dont expect much 
to come out of this but I want my latitude back.




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 09:20:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:20:08 -0500
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <3C15CD33.16918.3370B3@localhost>
References: <20011210145344.A21903@cluebot.com>
  <3C1364B9.12109.C7FA8D@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011211121523.02278070@mail.well.com>


Well, by your standards, any journalist who makes an innocent mistake would 
be a liar. I think the truth is that the reporters honestly believed they 
had a solid story -- but their editors should have stepped in and killed it 
or postponed it until they had unearthed more evidence. Reporters can get 
carried away on a story and lose focus; this is why you have multiple 
layers of editors at most news organizations. I don't remember how the 
videotape was edited -- you may be right; I just don't remember the details.

-Declan
Disclaimer: I worked at Time Inc. at the time but was not involved with the 
story -- I didn't see it until it hit the airwaves/newsstands.


At 09:09 AM 12/11/2001 -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>"No malice", not "no lies"
>
>The reason he concludes "no malice" is that he concludes the
>reporters really believed the US had used nerve gas, not
>because he believes the reporters had truthfully reported the
>evidence.  The edited Moorer seemingly admits to the use of
>nerve gas, and another witness seemingly admits to personally
>massacring civilians.  In the unedited versions, they do not.
>
>The reason it was "no malice" is that the reporters actually
>had some evidence -- but not evidence persuasive enough to
>report on television.




From db at db.com  Tue Dec 11 12:24:33 2001
From: db at db.com (Dirk Boxcuttah)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:24:33 -0800
Subject: AOLTW hires ex Secret Service
Message-ID: <3C166B81.EEF9D463@db.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/bpihw/20011210/en/aol_tw_secures_secret_service_vet_1.html

AOL TW secures Secret Service vet

By Georg Szalai

NEW YORK (The Hollywood Reporter) --- In the wake of the Sept. 11
terrorist attacks, AOL Time Warner Inc. is breaking new ground
in the media industry, saying Monday that it has named the deputy
director of the U.S. Secret Service to the new position of chief
security
officer and senior vp.

Larry Cockell, a 20-year Secret Service veteran, will start his new
assignment at the world's largest entertainment and online conglomerate
Jan. 14. Reporting to AOL TW executive vp administration Patricia
Fili-Krushel, Cockell will be responsible for security on a global
basis,
coordinating and overseeing all security policies and operations, the
company said.

Analysts said Monday that they were not aware of similar positions at
other media giants but that big corporations in other fields have
started
shoring up their security operations following Sept. 11. "I don't know
of such a chief security officer position at any of AOL's media peers,"
Kaufman Bros. analyst Paul Kim said. "But this is definitely a growing
trend at S&P 500 companies."





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Dec 11 03:31:31 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:31:31 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: Antivirus firms deny Magic Lantern backdoor plans (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:04:54 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Antivirus firms deny Magic Lantern backdoor plans


>From: "Bill Sodeman" 
>To: 
>Subject: Antivirus firms deny Magic Lantern backdoor plans
>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:47:17 -0600
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3311
>Importance: Normal
>
>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011210/tc/attack_tech_dc.html
>
>Monday December 10 8:30 PM ET
>Antivirus Firms Say They Won't Create FBI Loophole
>By Elinor Mills Abreu
>
>SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Anti-virus software vendors said on Monday
>they don't want to create a loophole in their security products to let
>the FBI or other government agencies use a virus to eavesdrop on the
>computer communications of suspected criminals.
>
>Under a project code named "Magic Lantern," the U.S. Federal Bureau of
>Investigation is creating an e-mail-borne virus or Trojan horse that
>hides itself on the computer and captures all keystrokes made, including
>passwords that could be used to read encrypted mail, according to a
>report on MSNBC.com in November.
>
>Despite subsequent reports to the contrary, officials at Symantec Corp.
>and Network Associates Inc. said they had no intention of voluntarily
>modifying their products to satisfy the FBI. Spokesmen at two other
>computer security companies, Japan-based Trend Micro Inc. and the U.S.
>subsidiary of UK-based Sophos PLc., made similar statements.
>
>All four anti-virus companies said they had not contacted or been
>contacted by the U.S. government on the matter.
>
>"We're in the business of providing a virus-free environment for our
>users and we're not going to do anything to compromise that security,"
>said Tony Thompson of Network Associates.
>
>"Symantec's first priority is to protect our customers from malicious
>and illegal attacks," Symantec Chief Executive John W. Thompson said in
>a statement. "We have no intention of creating or leaving a hole in our
>software that might compromise that security."
>
>If anti-virus vendors were to leave a hole for an FBI-created Trojan
>horse program, malicious hackers would try to exploit the hole too,
>experts said.
>
>"If you leave the weakness for the FBI, you leave it for everybody,"
>said Fred Cohen, an independent security expert and digital forensics
>professor at the University of New Haven.
>
> >From the industry perspective, leaving a hole in anti-virus software
>would erode public confidence and damage the reputation of the vendor,
>sending customers to competing companies, the vendors said.
>
>The government would have to convince all anti-virus vendors to
>cooperate or the plan wouldn't work, since those not cooperating would
>have a market advantage and since they all share information, said a
>Symantec spokeswoman.
>
>"The thought that you would be able to convince the industry as a whole
>to do this is kind of naive," she said.
>
>All four anti-virus companies said they had not contacted or been
>contacted by the U.S. government on the matter.
>
>The FBI declined to confirm or deny the report about "Magic Lantern,"
>when it was first published by MSNBC.com and a spokesman was not
>available for comment on Monday.
>
>PLAN WOULD ALIENATE OTHER COUNTRIES
>
>Symantec and Networks Associates, both of whom have investments in
>China, would not jeopardize their footings in that market, said Rob
>Rosenberger, editor of www.vmyths.com, a Web site that debunks virus
>hoaxes.
>
>"If (the Chinese) thought that the company was a tool of the CIA (news -
>web sites), China would stop using those products in critical
>environments," Rosenberger said. "It is in the best interest of
>anti-virus vendors not to heed the call of the FBI."
>
>"We always try to cooperate with the authorities when it's appropriate.
>Having said that, our No. 1 goal is to protect our customers," said
>Barbara Woolf of Trend Micro. "I've heard reports that the government is
>upset this got out and is going back to the drawing board."
>
>Appeasing the U.S. government would be difficult for vendors who have
>parent companies and customers outside the United States, they said.
>
>"If the laws of the land were to change to permit this kind of activity
>then we would abide by the law," said David Hughes, president of Sophos'
>U.S. subsidiary.
>
>But "how would a vendor provide protection for customers outside of the
>specific jurisdiction?" Hughes asked. "If we were to do this for the
>U.S. government we'd also have to do it for the government of any other
>nation that would want to do something similar."
>
>
>==========================
>
>Bill Sodeman
>bill at sodeman.com / http://bill.sodeman.com
>
>1-512-845-0119

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Dec 11 12:58:49 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:58:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To:  from
  "Trei, Peter" at Dec 11, 2001 10:00:03 AM
Message-ID: <200112112059.fBBKx4a09251@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Peter Trei writes:

>> There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
>> publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against
>> "evil."

> Where is it?

It was released by ACTA, formerly the NAF, run by Lynne Cheney, formerly
arch-conservative Bill Bennett's heir at the National Endowment for the
Humanities, and the wife of the federal government's favorite cardiac
patient, Vice President Dick Cheney.

Imagine the joy of being a university professor, and waking up one morning
to find that a big powerful organization run by the Vice President's wife
has issued a report practically calling you a traitor.

from http://arizona.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=2175&group=webcast
 
<>
 
and from APSCUF's Higher Education News Blits

<<* THE AMERICAN COUNCIL OF TRUSTEES AND ALUMNI, an organization that says
  American higher education plays down Western intellectual teachings, on
  Sunday issued a stinging report that condemns colleges and faculty
  members for what it calls a "blame America first" response to the
  terrorist attacks of September 11.>>

and from WebNetInfo.com

<>

You might want to wade through http://www.goacta.org/ and see if you can
find the report.  I took a quick look, but my javascript and .pdf
patience levels were quickly exceeded.

I saw one of the frightened professors bleating "but I'm not a traitor" on
CNN the other day, and a smiling ACTA droid saying that their list was
merely "academic criticism."  High drama.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Dec 11 04:26:40 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:26:40 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:24:46 -0800
From: Don Marti 
To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange

begin Seth David Schoen quotation of Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0800:

> Reviving a thread from last month:

(More on encrypted email infrastructure from Seth:
http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/2001-12-07.html)

> The Board of Directors of EFF met today in San Francisco, and I made a
> presentation about this, in the presence of Brad Templeton and others.
> One of the conclusions was that EFF's role in implementing something
> like this is still not defined clearly enough, and we don't know what
> we could most usefully do.

In order to seriously deploy encrypted email you need to kick the
email client support problem and the key management problem at the
same time.

One possible role for EFF would be as a founding member of an
encrypted email industry consortium analogous to W3C.  Such an
organization would have to be positioned as a way to fight
cyberterrorism and protect infrastructure.

It would be nice to get Ximian, the KDE project  and Qualcomm to
join, and use the words "Secure Email" or "Email Security" in the
organization's name somewhere.  You probably aren't going to get
any mail client vendor that depends on many Secret Police customers
to join.

-- 
Don Marti          What do we want?  Free Dmitry!  When do we want it?  Now!
http://zgp.org/~dmarti
dmarti at zgp.org                                  Free the web, burn all GIFs.
KG6INA                                               http://burnallgifs.org/
_______________________________________________
linux-elitists
http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists




From popkin at nym.alias.net  Tue Dec 11 05:35:17 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 11 Dec 2001 13:35:17 -0000
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
References: <0b6888eaf9844ca38eee29b1d175ab8f@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20011211133517.21136.qmail@nym.alias.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: application/pgp
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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 19:11:14 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:11:14 +1100
Subject: Subject: the OSD pool, press release.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211140520.00a23df0@pop.useoz.com>


>Subject: the operation soft drill, draw down pool for day to day petty 
>tyrants.
>
>OSD International do not insure against war and nuclear explosion, and 
>acts of terrorism would somehow fit between the definitions, professor rat 
>said.
>
>"If the government accepts our proposal for a pool, then we will be able 
>to continue to provide cover under the original policy," he told reporters.
>
>"We have a figure of $1 billion, which is probably a sufficient number we 
>would need."
>
>Proff. rat said the pool would have to be raised through community 
>contributions, such as a levy on insurance policies.
>
>"If we create a viable pool here in Australia, everyone's going to have to 
>contribute to it," he said.
>
>"We would have to assess a cost or contribution over a period of time. It 
>could be X number of dollars per house or vehicle insurance policy.
>
>"We have not got down to the fine detail yet; we are still arguing for a 
>pool."




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Dec 11 14:12:39 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:12:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To:  from
  "Trei, Peter" at Dec 11, 2001 04:25:26 PM
Message-ID: <200112112212.fBBMCdN09359@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Peter Trei wrote:

> On the other hand, ACTA has specifically condemned the 
> U of NM for their punishment of Berthold (which started 
> this thread).

An interesting tactic.  Out those whose remarks are not publicly known, to
intimidate them and others into silence, while at the same time,
"defending" someone whose reputation cannot be further vilified against
excessive punishment.

Like most organizations that are members of the Conservative Labyrinth,
ACTA's web page is a bit deceptive.  On first reading, you might get the
impression that you were looking at some sort of ACLU-like organization
devoted to intellectual and academic freedom.  Look at how many times the
word "liberal" appears in a positive context.

Of course, this is designed to appeal to people who don't pay too much
attention to the fact that the word "liberal" in "liberal education" has
an entirely different meaning than it does in "liberal political
thinking."

Defense of liberal education and attacks on the elimination of humanities
programs, do not equate to support of liberal politics and humanism.  :)

> "It is the responsibility of a university to teach that the right way to
> counter ideas with which one disagrees is with more speech, not less,"
> said Neal.

Even the ADL proudly advertises that the "solution to bad speech is more
speech."  In fact, they will happily provide you with carefully prepared
"more speech" to add to any website which contains comments that might be
construed as negative about a particular ideology and its followers.

I think most of us would consider the ADL pro-censorship, even as it
adopts Cypherpunkish slogans to describe its behavior.

As conservative organizations and other agendas strive to blend in to the
freethinkers, it becomes even more important to recognize that the ACLJ is
not the ACLU, Pregnancy Crisis Centers are not Abortion Clinics, and Child
Advocacy is not Childrens Rights.

Neither is defending a professor against being punished for snickering
over the exploding Pentagon an invitation to university faculty to speak
their minds on the likely fallout from decades of Belicose and Belligerent
US Foreign Policy.

There's a pretty good Boston Globe article on all this at...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1113-03.htm

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 19:55:46 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:55:46 +1100
Subject: Does the boss read cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211144155.00a43eb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.click2learn.com/   a majority owned paul allen co.

They say that knowledge is power...actually its proffr. Im just wondering 
how my techtv interviews going to go when
they find out Im  @fuckmicrosoft.com

Wonder if pauls any relation to my old mate michael k allen.republican 
party reptile and e-mail idiot/waster of taxpayers money.Ohio division.
Theres no reason personalized information cant arrive at your TV, 
cellular telephone, or microwave oven for that matter. Microprocessors 
embedded in objects and connected to networks open up a world of new 
opportunitiesa world where information is easily customized for each 
users needs."
 Paul Allen
Theres no reason paul allen couldnt be nominated by me for assasination 
politics.He still has time to divest and join the crypto-anarchist 
revolution though.Nothing personal paul,its business,thats all.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 20:28:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:28:52 +1100
Subject: Nobrain Nescio
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211151429.00a44410@pop.useoz.com>


"...Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, ..." 'nomen nescio'

Luckily operation soft drill doesnt.

"AP is part of the dark side of the cypherpunk dream and it must be faced 
rather than evaded"

OSD,the 'open source' AP is the light,bright shining star of the cypherpunk 
dream,think about it.

." The people involved with the digital cash would be targets "

Yes,by tax collectors who would then be nominated for OSD.If they come in 
tanks,we target any federal employee,an advance on AP imho.

"With crypto anarchy you have to take the bad with the good. "

Agreed,we have to listen to you,measl,honig,james and tim crap 
on.(sometimes tims good though)

"John Young's dissembling "

If jya were japanese he'd be a living national treasure.He also is pioneer 
of info compression on a truly mindbending scale.A cypherpunk giant,show 
some respect.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:08:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:08:36 +1100
Subject: Crypto winter
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211153943.00a484c0@pop.useoz.com>


When the crap corporate media start to beat up an OSD scare,it might pay to 
be aware.Not fearful or defensive but aware.

3 things are lying around,1 is contract killing,as seen in prizzis 
honor,crimes and misdemeanors, etc.
2 is the www,something whipping out 5 kilometres of fibre optic as we 
speak.Not getting smaller or going away.
3 is injustice,something most children know about.So what if OSD puts these 
together,so anyone can.

No one or no govt can stop 3 basic things being combined or eliminate even 
one without massive insane effort.

Its the same as clipper,bio-warfare agents and nuclear knowledge.Its out 
there.Its also needed.We are facing a crisis
that will make us rapidly extinct soon if we dont take action."Targeted 
action".Tim may be right about a crypto winter cos
the scare campaign on OSD could be massive.They will huff and puff,yet more 
and more are getting their news from Independent media,so they'll lose 
there as well.I wrote on www.indymedia.org around april that we are 
approaching a phase transition.Jim bell wrote that it will seem like a 
roller coaster ride,but it will be worth it,for we will be free.Euletheria.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Dec 11 13:25:26 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:25:26 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
Message-ID: 


> ----------
> From: 	Eric Cordian[SMTP:emc at artifact.psychedelic.net]
> 
> 
> Peter Trei writes:
> 
> >> There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
> >> publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against
> >> "evil."
> 
> > Where is it?
	[...]
> It was released by ACTA, formerly the NAF, run by Lynne Cheney, formerly
> arch-conservative Bill Bennett's heir at the National Endowment for the
> Humanities, and the wife of the federal government's favorite cardiac
> patient, Vice President Dick Cheney.
	[...]
> You might want to wade through http://www.goacta.org/ and see if you can
> find the report.  I took a quick look, but my javascript and .pdf
> patience levels were quickly exceeded.
	[...]

Well, http://www.goacta.org/Reports/defciv.pdf doesn't
actually name names, but the quotes are given enough
attribution that, at least on a given campus, the speaker
is probably identifiable. For example...

2 2 . "What the U.S. calls counter-terrorism is terrorism 
by another name. Operation Infinite Justice-the Bush 
administration's code name for proposed military action 
against terrorists - is 'cowboy law.'" 
Professor of linguistics, MIT.

...isn't too hard to identify.

On the other hand, ACTA has specifically condemned the
U of NM for their punishment of Berthold (which started 
this thread).

http://www.goacta.org/Press%20Releases/11-14-01PR.htm

AMERICAN COUNCIL OF TRUSTEES AND ALUMNI
    DEFENDS UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO PROF

 Controversial Comment on Terrorist Attack Is Not Grounds
                for Punishment


WASHINGTON, D.C. (November 14, 2001) -- The American
Council of Trustees and Alumni today came to the defense of
University of New Mexico professor Richard Berthold who is
under investigation by the University for remarking: "Anyone
who can blow up the Pentagon has my vote."

"Professor Berthold's comment is certainly crude and
debatable, but it is not punishable," said Anne D. Neal,
ACTA's Vice President and General Counsel. "While we clearly
disagree, academic freedom requires a free exchange of
ideas-no matter how controversial."

[...]

"There is a big difference between criticizing someone's
comments, and punishing those comments," said Neal. "It is
the responsibility of a university to teach that the right way to
counter ideas with which one disagrees is with more speech,
not less," said Neal. 

-- end of quote - 

Peter Trei




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:33:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:33:53 +1100
Subject: Free our friends,all slaves and prisoners of the state
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211162623.00a4aae0@pop.useoz.com>


All drug war prisoners,leonard peltier,Mumia,chris boyce,robert 
hannsen,aldrich ames and all the other world patriots.

Also killthepresidentthenthenextonethenthenextfasterpussycatkillkill.OSD 
international will shortly target US tourists.

Punk's attack on the establishment and institutions of the day, its 
willingness to exploit taboos for fun and proffr, was supremely effective 
at getting up noses.




From pcw at flyzone.com  Tue Dec 11 13:45:43 2001
From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:45:43 -0500
Subject: Earn Cash, Find Errors in _Disappearing Cryptography_.
Message-ID: <200112112146.fBBLk1m31370@slack.lne.com>


I'm working on a second edition of _Disappearing Cryptography_, a 
book about steganography and anonymity on-line. In the interests of 
removing any errors from previous editions, I'm offering a $10 reward 
for anyone who reports the technical errors to me.

Here are the rules:

*) Only the first person to report an error wins a prize. This is the 
only way to avoid many people submitting the same error again and 
again and again. I reserve the right to pay duplicate prizes to 
people who appear to have submitted a duplicate in good faith.

*) I reserve the right to decide the size of an error. If 
misspellings counted, spelling someone's name wrong through out the 
entire book would only count as one error.

*) First person is judged by the time the error arrives in my 
mailbox, pcw at flyzone.com.

*) Only technical errors count. Grammar and spelling errors could 
bankrupt me, even after the copy editing fixes 99%.

*) Please submit the page number.

*) Please let me know if you want your name included in the thanks at 
the beginning of the book.


Thank you. You're free to forward this offer to any other list.

-Peter




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Dec 11 17:01:11 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To: <20011211194218.A14237@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh"
  at Dec 11, 2001 07:42:19 PM
Message-ID: <200112120101.fBC11Bl09585@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Declan opines:

>> Imagine the joy of being a university professor, and waking up one morning
>> to find that a big powerful organization run by the Vice President's wife
>> has issued a report practically calling you a traitor.

> I'm hardly defending the group's "blacklist," but "big and powerful?"
> Come, now.

OK.  How about "well-funded?"  :)

I count $1,270,000 in grants to the organization since its creation as the
National Alumni Forum.  The NAF sold the idea that alumni should
contribute to the NAF's "Fund for Academic Renewal" instead of directly to
their institutions.  The NAF then gave the money to the institutions as
targeted donations, removing the institution's discretion over how alumni
donations were spent.

They went after the $2.9 billion alumni gift market with big ads in Ivy
League magazines.  Later they changed their name to the more impressive
sounding American Council of Trustees and Alumni, and broadened the
spectrum of pressure tactics employed to shove patriotism down the throats
of universities behind the smokescreen of "promoting intellectual freedom
and raising academic standards."

In what sense is such an undertaking neither "big" nor "powerful?"

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 22:16:26 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:16:26 +1100
Subject: Threats to kill,"A cry for help"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211171050.00a4ccf0@pop.useoz.com>


A doctor called Asperger that we'll call Hans
Had plenty to do and plenty of plans
To name a syndrome after himself
So that people like me weren't left on the shelf
Many years later thanks to Old Hans
People were diagnosed and they became his fans
Parents and doctors and teachers alike
Understood Asperger Syndrome just like riding a bike
They thanked Old Hans many years on
As the diagnosis kept going on and on
Lots of research does even more good
Just like the books by Tony Attwood
Hans Asperger is sadly no longer with us
But he did leave a lot so that he could give us
We thank him for making our lives much easier
And I myself feel a whole lot pleasier.

QUESTION: Where did the name Asperger Syndrome comes from?

ANSWER: Hans Asperger, an Austrian scientist in 1944, discovered the 
syndrome. He found out why children and adults behaved differently from 
other people and linked it with autism, except that he found that these 
people had average or above average intelligence.
The word Asperger also seems to be a Dutch word as a language translation 
website proved, the word means "sparrow grass" in English. We believe that 
the words Asperger and asparagus are related to each other as both words 
translate as exactly the same word. Someone also told me that the French 
word asperge also seems to be a translation for both Asperger and asparagus.




From popkin at nym.alias.net  Tue Dec 11 09:50:28 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 11 Dec 2001 17:50:28 -0000
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
References: 
Message-ID: <20011211175028.14024.qmail@nym.alias.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 528 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:12:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:12:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:

> In the most recent ruling, Universal v. Remerdez/Eric Corley 2600.com 
> (00-9185), http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-cad.htm , the US Court of 
> Appeals for the Second Circuit declined to overturn an injunction 
> against the posting of DeCSS on the Internet. The Court held that 
> software was speech, but did not enjoy the level of First Amendment 
> protection accorded to pure speech because it is functional with 
> little human intervention.

That's where 'press' comes into play. The 1st provides two protections.
The first is to have an opinion and to express it, 'speech'. The second is
'press' which guarantees the right to share with other humans. Speech that
is not shared, after all, is no better than speech not uttered. Now this
explicitly protects the hardware and 'non-human' mechanisms that humans
use to distribute their speech. The courts will eventually find that the
sharing of speech, irrespective of mechanism, is protected. To deny an
individual a mechanism to share their speech is in fact a violation of
their speech. In addition the first does NOT draw ANY distinctions about
what sorts of speech are or are not protected, it simply says 'speech' is 
protected.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Dec 11 18:13:59 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:13:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To:  from
  "Trei, Peter" at Dec 11, 2001 04:25:26 PM
Message-ID: <200112120213.fBC2Dxw09688@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Peter Trei wrote:

> Well, http://www.goacta.org/Reports/defciv.pdf doesn't
> actually name names, but the quotes are given enough
> attribution that, at least on a given campus, the speaker
> is probably identifiable. For example...

Are you sure that's the report all the fuss is about?  All the newspaper
stories I've read on this were pretty specific that names were named.

> "What the U.S. calls counter-terrorism is terrorism by another name.
> Operation Infinite Justice-the Bush administration's code name for
> proposed military action against terrorists - is 'cowboy law.'"

>                      Professor of linguistics, MIT.

> ...isn't too hard to identify.

Yes.  Kind of like...

"Fuck America.  Fuck it to death and start over."
 
                       Crusty Retired Engineer, Intel.

Har.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 23:14:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:14:21 +1100
Subject: The Fading Altruism of Open Source Development 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211180451.00a4e0f0@pop.useoz.com>


"...regardless of how software is produced in the real world, its 
increasing extensibility seems to be in the public interest and should be 
encouraged where feasible."

Last sentence.Misleading leadin methinks,jimmy.However,if true may be 
balanced by...Twilight of the crypto-geeks
Lone-wolf digital libertarians are beginning to abandon their faith in 
technology uber alles and espouse suspiciously socialist-sounding ideas.
At... http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/04/13/libertarians/print.html

Wots pantheists jim?,we have black panthers running free in this state,I 
saw one once and one was filmed just recently.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:15:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:15:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011211070014.009c0650@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> MIT's project *Athena* developed X because they had an equal mix of DEC
                      ^
                      What letter is next to 'a' on the keyboard? You
                      really should refrain from ad hominims.

> and [I forget -IBM?] workstations and so developed a device independent
> display server.  That it was subject to code bloat is regrettable but its use
> is not mandatory.

Nobody said ANYTHING was mandatory, as usual changing the rules in the
middle of the game.

What happened was that it was the only game in town. It got picked up by
the Unix geeks and next thing you know there was a collection of code and
apps that were written for X. It would have cost entirely too much to
change to something else and throw all that code away (eg consider the
life time of a typical piece of COBOL).

Economic & Technical Inertia


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:20:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:20:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011211065257.009bf970@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 12:13 AM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >No, I'm not. 'discrimination' requires(!) 'prejudice'. Prejudice is the
> 
> In Choate prime, perhaps.  For the rest of us, measurement (e.g., 
> the redness vs greenness of a fruit) lets us discriminate useful from not.

Bullshit, you're playing word games. Get your dictionary and educate
yourself on this point. You're using the word in the fist case to mean
select individuals as sub-optimal. Then when you're called to the carpet
on your logical inconsistency you all of a sudden change your word usage
to mean 'select', which ain't the same thing at all in the context of your
original usage. Discriminate as you use above is almost exclusively a
technical application, which isn't applicable to the social application
we're actually discussing. Why? Because in your first usage you were
applying a measure of 'merit' whereas in the above usage you are drawing a
simple distinction. Not the same beasty at all - Choate Prime or not.

Discriminate:

1. To observe or mark the difference between

2. To show partiality because of race, nationality, or class prejudice

You really should be more consistent in the way you use words.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:23:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:23:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda 
In-Reply-To: <3C15CD33.4142.3370D1@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> I just gave you a response,

Which you never did before.

> which you just deleted. 

Which I explained the reason to. I'll get around to the rest of it in the
next day or so.

Quit your whinning.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:30:08 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:30:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212061517.00a53360@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> Jim says in the essay,It doesnt have to be,"wild in the streets"He doesn't 
> miss a trick.He talks of the possibility of minarchy.Does anyone actually 
> read the fucking essay? 

Yeah, I read the fucking essay. It's flawed in a variety of ways. It's
understanding of human psychology (which it purports to manipulate in
realistic ways - not) is so flawed as to make it very tedious.

> I part with him on offing forest grunts,btw.Its not 
> about shooting 'messengers'.Its about making very credible threats to limit 
> violence.Paradoxical but effective.

Not paradoxical, hypocritical. And no, it doesn't limit anything (unless
there are is so much money being made killing wives, husbands, and
competitors there are no more hit men left). It simply provides a
mechanism for the 1st party to anonymously hire the 3rd party to kill
the 2nd party.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From tbr at bora.com  Tue Dec 11 18:43:34 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:43:34 -0800
Subject: 100 million responsibilities (Re: AP Al quim)
Message-ID: <3C16C456.D63A38F5@bora.com>


At 06:27 AM 12/12/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>.>..regarding Assassination Politics: > > Just keep in mind that AP is
a
>joke among knowledgeable > > technologists for >its unworkability, but
a
>wonderful joke > > on those who believe it's anything more than a
taunt. >
>Total bullshit again. Yes, but the reason it's bullshit is that
shooting
>messengers does no good. It leaves intact the originators of the
message,
>all hundred- million of them. Tomorrow, the hundred million will be
>stumbling over each other trying to empower new messengers to replace
those
>fallen.

Bingo.  This is why the WTC takedown was such excellent feedback.




From tbr at bora.com  Tue Dec 11 18:50:27 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:50:27 -0800
Subject: Lynn Cheney vs. Tipper Gore -which is more evil?
Message-ID: <3C16C5F2.895CAB0@bora.com>


>>> There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
>>> publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against
>>> "evil."
>
>> Where is it?
>
>It was released by ACTA, formerly the NAF, run by Lynne Cheney,
formerly
>arch-conservative Bill Bennett's heir at the National Endowment for the

>Humanities, and the wife of the federal government's favorite cardiac
>patient, Vice President Dick Cheney.
>
>Imagine the joy of being a university professor, and waking up one
morning
>to find that a big powerful organization run by the Vice President's
wife
>has issued a report practically calling you a traitor.

Almost as much fun as being a musician and waking up one morning to find

that a big powerful organization run by the VP's wife is practically
calling you immoral.

Tipper Gore is mentally ill, but that's no excuse.




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 11 18:54:26 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:54:26 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011211070014.009c0650@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011211185426.009c78b0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:15 PM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> MIT's project *Athena* developed X because they had an equal mix of DEC
>                      ^
>                      What letter is next to 'a' on the keyboard? You
>                      really should refrain from ad hominims.

A simple spelling correction is not an ad hominim.



 






  







From UNIVERR_5 at terra.e  Tue Dec 11 10:00:24 2001
From: UNIVERR_5 at terra.e (brokers-university)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:00:24 +0100
Subject: PUBLI/ENSEANZA
Message-ID: <200112111757.fBBHvmJ17900@waste.minder.net>


PUBLI/ENSEÑANZA
                                                                            
                                                                                            Learning 
University 
                                                                                            Area 
Master-Doctoral
                                                                                            
--------------------------------
                                                                                            

 

 
 
Gratamente nos dirigimos a vd:

Para informales sobre la posibilidad de realizar unos Masters, Doctorados, 
a distancia desde cualquier parte del mundo.Y LA POSIBILIDAD DE 
CONVALIDAR SU EXPERIENCIA LABORAL, ESTUDIOS 
ANTERIORES,PARA  PODER CERTIFICARLE DIPLOMATURAS EN 
DIFERENTES AREAS.
La enseñanza es a distancia y pueden seguirlo cómodamente en 
cualquier parte del mundo tanto el material de estudio como él envió de 
examen y la entrega de diplomas se efectúa a distancia.
Certificamos la experiencia a fin.

 
Areas de estudio enormemente practicas:

Area Economía:
 
 Marketing y Dirección de Empresas
Comunicación Social y Relaciones Publicas
MBA. Master Business Administraccion
Psicología Social y Empresa
Ecología y Medio Ambiente
PNL y Psicología Social
Promoción del Turismo
 Gestión Inmobiliaria y Inversiones
Internet y Nuevas Tecnologías 
 (Otros como enseñanzas convalidables, nuevas profesiones)
 ---------------

Area Terapias Alternativas:

Medicina Naturista Integral
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Medicina Ayuverdica
Terapias Manuales
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 (Otros como enseñanzas convalidables,nuevas profesiones)
MBA es la estrategia aplicada a cualquier rama del saber o el 
conocimiento. 
MAS DE 300.DIPLOMATURAS POR CONVALIDACION DE 
EXPERIENCIA LABORAL Y EDUCATIVA AFIN.
Envíenos un e-mail a UNI_BROKER at terra.es y le informaremos con la 
mayor brevedad sobre fecha de inicio, módulos de estudio, costes y 
condiciones generales, posibilidades.etc. 

 Sin otra que la de quedar de vds.

 
 Atentamente:
 

 
Maria Carrillo
Area Broker-Learning University
Representante
University Technology International
UNI_BROKER at terra.es 
---------------

Si desea ser borrado envie un e-mail:
Con refer_remove:

SU DIRECCION DE E-MAIL FUE EXTRAIDA DE UN SITIO PUBLICO 
POR MEDIO DE MEDIOS MECANICOS AUTOMATIZADOS AL IGUAL 
QUE EL ENVIO DE ESTE MENSAJE.NO DISPONIENDO DE DATOS 
CONFIDENCIALES DE VD.




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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:01:10
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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 11 19:02:13 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:02:13 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


This article is so deeply flawed as to be laughable. Part of the article 
is quoted below, with my comments/corrections in brackets.

'In 1993, the Finns developed an anonymous e-mail system that stripped 
off the identification of an e-mail's sender before forwarding it to the 
addressee.

[No, Karl Kleinpaste developed the original software and deployed it in 
1991-2. Julf H. took it over and modified it later. Not "the Finns," but 
"an American and then a Finn."]

Anon.penet.fi was especially popular among devotees of Usenet 
newsgroups, text-based bulletin boards that preceded the World Wide Web.

A major flaw was revealed in 1995, however, when the Church of 
Scientology learned of a user who used Anon.penet.fi to post internal 
church documents -- and contacted police.

Because the single remailer relied on a database to match the sender's 
Internet address with the message, the courts simply ordered Hensingius 
to reveal the identity of the sender. He shut down the service in 1996.

"That prompted a bunch of programmers to rethink how they wanted to do 
remailers," said Sassaman.

Now, messages are bounced from machine to machine. In order to find the 
original sender, authorities would have to work through an entire chain 
of remailers, many likely located in different countries.
"

[The "prompted a bunch of programmers to rethink" comment has it all 
backwards. Chained remailers were deployed in 1992. The theory was known 
from Chaum's 1981 paper, and the flaws in the 
Kremvax/Kleinpaste/Julf/Penet type of approach were widely known: this 
was why chained remailers, in multiple jurisdictions, were deployed. Hal 
Finney wrote the first code for this, building on the Perl/Sendmail 
scripts Eric Hughes had already released.]

[I don't expect detailed perfection in journalism, but this article 
scrambles the causal order substantially. We _knew_ of the severe 
limitations to "trust me"-based mail resenders long before, years 
before, the limitations were revealed. And, the reason the 
Scientologists were unable to track down the source of the NOTS docs is 
that the court order to reveal the author only produced the C2Net 
Cypherpunks-style source, which COULD NOT be traced back further!!!!! 
This is a slam dunk refutation of the author's chronology above. By the 
way, when C2Net decided to get out of the remailing business, they sold 
or otherwise transferred the technology to Lance Cottrell. Not to take 
anything away from Lance, but let's not let this kind of bad history go 
without correction.]

--Tim May




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 16:42:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:42:19 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To: <200112112059.fBBKx4a09251@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from
  emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:58:49PM -0800
References: 
  <200112112059.fBBKx4a09251@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20011211194218.A14237@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:58:49PM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
> Imagine the joy of being a university professor, and waking up one morning
> to find that a big powerful organization run by the Vice President's wife
> has issued a report practically calling you a traitor.

I'm hardly defending the group's "blacklist," but "big and powerful?"
Come, now.

-Declan




From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Dec 11 11:20:25 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:20:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
Message-ID: 


Danny Popkin writes:
> > Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
>
> Worse than the secret ballot?

Much worse.  With a secret ballot you need to get a majority to support
any particular position.  That's a significant hurdle to overcome.
But with AP any small group of people that can put up enough money to
hire an assassin can get their way.  The going rate for a murder is
around $5-10K to off an average person, more if he's heavily guarded.
If 100 people put up $100 each then that's enough to get someone killed.

Imagine a secret ballot where any measure to increase government power
would pass if it received as few as 100 votes.  How much freedom would
you have left in such a society?  That's what AP represents.

And keep in mind that the people buying the assassination are fully
anonymous.  There is no way to know who is funding the AP market.  There
is no check or limit on the extent to which anonymous individuals with
private grievances can buy the deaths of anyone who gets in their way.

The only good thing about this situation is that it would encourage
everyone to go anonymous post haste.  We would see a rapid change in
society to allow anonymous business transactions, corporate ownership,
stock transactions.  Insider trading laws would become unenforceable.
Board members would meet only electronically, spending their time
barricaded inside their mansions.

Even elective office would change.  You'll walk into the ballot box to
vote for your government officials from a list of nyms who meet only on
the net.  Police forces, heavily armed and always travelling in teams,
will receive their orders via encrypted, digitally signed messages from
elected officials.  Any government official who must interact with the
public, whether a building inspector, a drivers' license examiner, even
a fireman, would get hazardous duty pay.  Wearing masks might become
routine for such officials.

Taxes (much higher than before due to the greater expenses of operating
the government) could be charged based on imputed property values
depending on zip code and acreage.  Everyone in a particular neighborhood
would be charged a fixed amount per square foot.  Any household which
does not provide the required fee (via cryptographic anonymous transfer
into the government account of course) would have its property subject
to confiscation by police.  Armed resistance would be met by military
force including helicopter gunships.

We can live in a world of crypto anarchy, but it won't be pretty.  And the
government certainly won't wither away.  Anyone who thinks that attacking
the government will weaken it should have learned a lesson from September
11th.  When it feels itself under attack, the government strikes back.
We are all the losers as our freedoms are destroyed.




From tbr at bora.com  Tue Dec 11 20:55:04 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:55:04 -0800
Subject: Is Nomen Nomescio John McCain?
Message-ID: <3C16E327.A20F698@bora.com>


At 08:20 PM 12/11/01 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>Danny Popkin writes:
>> > Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
>>
>> Worse than the secret ballot?
>
>Much worse.  With a secret ballot you need to get a majority to support

>any particular position.  That's a significant hurdle to overcome.
>But with AP any small group of people that can put up enough money to
>hire an assassin can get their way.  The going rate for a murder is
>around $5-10K to off an average person, more if he's heavily guarded.
>If 100 people put up $100 each then that's enough to get someone
killed.
>
>Imagine a secret ballot where any measure to increase government power
>would pass if it received as few as 100 votes.  How much freedom would
>you have left in such a society?  That's what AP represents.

Hilarious, you sound like John McCain whining about campaign
donations...




From rabbi at quickie.net  Tue Dec 11 21:41:38 2001
From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:41:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> [The "prompted a bunch of programmers to rethink" comment has it all
> backwards. Chained remailers were deployed in 1992. The theory was
> known from Chaum's 1981 paper, and the flaws in the
> Kremvax/Kleinpaste/Julf/Penet type of approach were widely known: this
> was why chained remailers, in multiple jurisdictions, were deployed.
> Hal Finney wrote the first code for this, building on the
> Perl/Sendmail scripts Eric Hughes had already released.]

The quoted portion is basically accurate (true to what I said), but I was
talking about theoretical attacks at that point. I think I said something
along the lines of:

"The cypherpunks developed a system based on the ideas in Chaum's 1981
paper. Penet-style remailers were potentially vulnerable to hackers and
court orders, which in fact ended up being the downfall of anon.penet.fi.
These problems prompted them to build better remailers."

I had this post up my screen when I was talking to him:
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.05.29-1997.06.04/msg00310.html

Penet was *in operation* prior to Eric and Hal's chained remailers, right?
If not, then that's my error.


--Len.




From wolf at priori.net  Tue Dec 11 22:07:23 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:07:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


"So far, U.S. and European authorities battling terrorism and cybercrime
have apparently focused their surveillance elsewhere. The FBI and the
National Security Agency, which monitors international telecommunications,
declined to comment on what strategy, if any, they have for dealing with
remailers."

That would have made the article much more interesting..

What *is* the FBI/etc.'s strategy on dealing with remailers, other than
ignoring them (and hoping that anti-spam/anti-terror legislation will make
them illegal?)


-MW-




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 22:13:29 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:13:29 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011211121523.02278070@mail.well.com>
References: <3C15CD33.16918.3370B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C168509.18807.84DAC7@localhost>


    --
On 11 Dec 2001, at 12:20, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Well, by your standards, any journalist who makes an
> innocent mistake would be a liar.

CNN edited interviews with people so as to make them appear
to admit to war crimes commited against civilians during the
Vietnam war, when the full transcript showed no such
admissions.  Those people threatened to sue.  CNN then paid
those people large sums of money in settlement of threatened
libel suits.  Under America's extremely liberal libel laws,
CNN would not have done so unless those defamed had a good
case of malicious libel.

> I think the truth is that the reporters honestly believed
> they had a solid story

If they believed that, why then did they falsify the
interviews?

The reporters may well have honestly believed that the US
used nerve gas to massacre civilians during the Vietnam war,
but they did not believe they had evidence for this that they
could show to the public.  So their perhaps honestly held
beliefs justified them in their own minds, in lying to the
public, in fabricating evidence that they did not possess.

If that was their rationalization then this was a classic
example of the vision of the anointed. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     BTQftYHIf8GtXCl4n9FZfxmMwvBd3TChGeVZEFDC
     4n0C1INs3LyzmQTF0zJYUiz0kZ7tFH7DNS1G9gLm5




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 22:13:29 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:13:29 -0800
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
In-Reply-To: <3C14DFF8.2989.35052EE1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C168509.31122.84DAE5@localhost>


    --
On 10 Dec 2001, at 16:16, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

> An idea just popped into my head, I was wondering if anyone
> had thought of this before. Most likely someone has, and
> has either proven the idea is impossible or has figured out
> how to do it.
>
> Th idea is,  when buying some good or service with digital
> cash,  the customer first forwards the cash to the vendor 
> in some transformed way such that the vendor can't yet
> spend it, but can verify that it is good cash of the
> correct amount, and that the customer will no longer be
> able to spend it.
>
> The idea is, if the vendor follows through on his side, the
> customer will supply the additional information the vendor
> will need to redeem the cash.  The customer can still rip
> the vendor off by refusing to do so, but he has no
> incentive, the money's already gone for him.  Conversely, 
> an unscrupulous "vendor" could in principle trick a
> customer into throwing away money on nothing,  but he would
> gain no profit in doing so.

Vendor creates and blinds some tokens.  Asks buyer to have
them signed by money issuer.  Money issuer signs them, and
issues declaration that they have been signed.  Buyer gives
vendor the declaration, but not signatures.  After delivery,
gives signatures.


    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     vNpp48iuJszNXUqQ3P9/e7GUOEcHXoIDo33hfuKd
     4xRG9QbdRJM31N1Lt+bhH55JK5VQWVorCJq0o7gAp




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 22:26:21 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:26:21 -0800
Subject: Quantum encryption hazard
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212063721.00a55b40@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C16880D.2075.90A39E@localhost>


    --
On 12 Dec 2001, at 7:11, mattd wrote:
> Quantum mechanics based on heisenbergs uncertainty
> principal is under attack.The two slit experiment has
> another explanation that even revives 'ether'

I am happy to observe that the intellectual level of the
remaining socialists has been sliding downhill rapidly since
the fall of the Soviet Union.

Hey mattd, better get moving or you will miss your ride on
the comet. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     xV01avOvGdk9uFiNYAZ0peoqSalLt2RlpmuY+DBt
     4OgaYScm4fBba/rcg7Ft4mB2RMJSptAfORXJGJVRe




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 11 22:27:34 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:27:34 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <542B29CC-EEC9-11D5-9E82-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 09:41 PM, Len Sassaman wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>> [The "prompted a bunch of programmers to rethink" comment has it all
>> backwards. Chained remailers were deployed in 1992. The theory was
>> known from Chaum's 1981 paper, and the flaws in the
>> Kremvax/Kleinpaste/Julf/Penet type of approach were widely known: this
>> was why chained remailers, in multiple jurisdictions, were deployed.
>> Hal Finney wrote the first code for this, building on the
>> Perl/Sendmail scripts Eric Hughes had already released.]
>
> The quoted portion is basically accurate (true to what I said), but I 
> was
> talking about theoretical attacks at that point. I think I said 
> something
> along the lines of:
>
> "The cypherpunks developed a system based on the ideas in Chaum's 1981
> paper. Penet-style remailers were potentially vulnerable to hackers and
> court orders, which in fact ended up being the downfall of 
> anon.penet.fi.
> These problems prompted them to build better remailers."
>
> I had this post up my screen when I was talking to him:
> http://www.inet-
> one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.05.29-1997.06.04/msg00310.html
>
> Penet was *in operation* prior to Eric and Hal's chained remailers, 
> right?
> If not, then that's my error.

The Kleinpaste/Julf anonymizing service had been in operation, widely, 
since 1991-2, before Cypherpunks, yes.

The CNN article is enormously misleading in many areas. The suggestiong 
that Lance Cottrell used the Julf experience to add nested encryption is 
false. The URL you quote above is one of the most detailed histories of 
remailers, even if I do say so myself. (Thanks for reminding me/us of 
it.)

 From your recollection of what you said to the reporter, it looks like 
the misunderstanding came from his thinking that the actual Penet 
failure was what triggered the modern remailer approach, when in fact 
you meant "these problems" in the sense that Chaum and others (us) 
realized the obvious limitations of "anonymity services."

And apparently the reporter then spun a story about how Lance Cottrell 
then invented message nesting, etc., all after the Penet failure. This 
is completely backwards. (It's not just the inaccuracy, or giving Lance 
too much credit...it's also that it makes it look as if we missed 
something so utterly obvious, that we were blindsided by the legal 
attack. Not so. And Chaum  knew this at least as far back as '81.)

In the big scheme of things, maybe no one who matters will read the CNN 
article. But it is false history and should be refuted. If not refuted, 
future historians who write about this interesting period may use it as 
primary source material.

If it isn't apparent, I make these points to correct the record, not to 
criticize Len, Lance, Julf, or anyone else. But as the URL above points 
out, we were fully aware of the problems with Kleinpaste/Julf-style 
services and knew they were neither interesting from our point of view 
or a stable basis for what we were seeking to build.

--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 11 22:39:15 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:39:15 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 10:07 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> "So far, U.S. and European authorities battling terrorism and cybercrime
> have apparently focused their surveillance elsewhere. The FBI and the
> National Security Agency, which monitors international 
> telecommunications,
> declined to comment on what strategy, if any, they have for dealing with
> remailers."
>
> That would have made the article much more interesting..
>
> What *is* the FBI/etc.'s strategy on dealing with remailers, other than
> ignoring them (and hoping that anti-spam/anti-terror legislation will 
> make
> them illegal?)

The article was not completely silent on speculations about FBI/LEA 
efforts: Magic Lantern was mentioned as a way to get the keys.

I'd guess that remops are likely targets for future "sneak and peek" 
black bag jobs. Warrants are no longer needed, say the criminals in D.C. 
(though the Constitution differs).

Packet sniffers are another approach. Remember that we have Shimomura's 
own words that he was working on such sniffers for various intelligence 
agencie back during the Mitnick affair.

Correlation analysis remains promising. Messages go in, messages leave. 
Without sufficient traffic to get the N^M entropy, imagine what 
sophisticate statistical analysis does to establish probable mappings.

As we (again) discussed at this past Saturday's physical meeting, in 
Santa Cruz, a sparse set of users and messages is almost a toy system. 
Remailer traffic needs to go up by a large factor, whether actual 
messages or dummy messages. Remailers need to be more robust (uptime, 
strong policies)  and need to be incentivized (paid remailers, an old 
topic).

A chicken or egg situation? Ideally, simultaneous development...plenty 
of precedents for market forces pushing stronger products that customers 
are willing to pay for.

--Tim May
"Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David 
Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 20:41:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:41:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The fucking essay
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212133250.00a0fab0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> "...the fucking essay. It's flawed in a variety of ways. It's understanding 
> of human psychology (which it purports to >manipulate in realistic ways - 
> not) is so flawed as to make it very tedious.
> 
> Speaking of tedious,Im on record with total opposition to freud being used 
> for anything other than birdcage liner.

Hate to break it to you but Freud <> Psychology.


I still havent read that part of AP 
> with any degree of attention.If thats what your referring to re.human 
> psychology then I heartily agree.Freud is extremely tedious.Where jim 
> appeals to
> the angels of our better nature is probably also flawed as a realistic 
> appeal to human psychology.(last page 10)

Jim appeals to nothing more than his own vanity.

What the fundamental flaw is to expect individuals to use AP to protect
themselves while at the same time expecting those attacked through AP to
do nothing other than lay down and take it.

If fundamentaly mis-understands that two wrongs don't make a right (even
if one is done in self-defence) and that when you attack a person their
reaction is to act in self defence.

It's just another example of the CACL failure with respect to the human
factor. On one hand they speak of what sheep, and on the other they
propose that these sheep will do the right thing 'if only....'.

Just plain silly.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 20:44:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:44:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011211185426.009c78b0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 06:15 PM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
> >
> >> MIT's project *Athena* developed X because they had an equal mix of DEC
> >                      ^
> >                      What letter is next to 'a' on the keyboard? You
> >                      really should refrain from ad hominims.
> 
> A simple spelling correction is not an ad hominim.

Your responce was by the tone. My spelling error was irrelevant to the
issue at hand. If you really believed it was a simple spelling mistake you
would have just glossed right over it. You didn't, that act speaks for
itself.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From jw at bway.net  Tue Dec 11 16:44:34 2001
From: jw at bway.net (jw at bway.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:44:34 GMT
Subject: Year Zero: Private and self-censorship
Message-ID: 

Steganography, My Ass:
The Dangers of Private and Self-Censorship in Wartime
by Jonathan Wallace jw at bway.net

The categories of speech protected by the First Amendment are 
well-known, and despite the repetitive chatter on Internet mailing 
lists, are not in serious dispute. Supreme Court decisions 
interpreting the constitution have made absolutely clear that highly 
unpalatable political speech, and even words of quite hateful and 
violent import, have absolute protection (so long as they don't fall 
into the very narrow pigeonhole of threats conveying an immediate 
fear of violence to a specific individual). We can argue about what 
the First Amendment ought to protect, debate whether and how to 
change the Constitution. But there can be no serious discussion today 
of whether, for example, web pages calling for Jihad or approving the 
destruction of the World Trade Center and the murder of Americans, 
are protected by the First Amendment. They indisputably are.

Justice Holmes, creator of the operative metaphor for U.S. speech 
freedoms, the "marketplace of ideas", made clear in a famous dissent 
that the First Amendment's sweep reaches the most offensive political 
speech imaginable:


"If in the long run, the beliefs expressed in proletarian 
dictatorship are destined to be accepted by the dominant forces of 
the community, the only meaning of free speech is that they should be 
given their chance and have their way."

Yet pages approving violence and terrorism against the U.S. were 
pulled from numerous U.S.-based servers soon after September 11, 
without any recourse for the people maintaining them. The reason that 
there was no constitutional violation was that (as Internet debaters 
sometimes forget) the First Amendment only protects us against 
government interventions in speech. It doesn't protect us against 
each other.

Purveyors of free web space such as Geocities and Tripod have "Terms 
of Service" (TOS) contracts that users must accept which give the 
companies broad discretion to reject and close web sites for their 
presentation of constitutionally-protected but politically 
unpalatable speech. TOS violations were probably the single most 
important justification for the acts of commercial censorship which 
occurred this fall.

However, another more widespread but even less visible force at work 
chilling speech was the fear of job or social consequences of 
expression of unpopular ideas. In the first flush of emotion after 
the attacks, we had several remarkable examples, unusual mainly for 
being examples of public rather than highly private retaliations. 
Television host Bill Maher (paid after all for saying outrageous, 
attention-getting things) made the comment that terrorists who are 
willing to give their lives, whatever else they may be, cannot 
accurately be described as "cowardly". (By the way, he is right about 
this and I have made the same observation myself.) He then went a 
step further and said that firing cruise missiles from a distance is 
more properly described as "cowardly". Whatever you may believe about 
Maher's taste and timing, his words fall squarely within the 
protected realm of vivid American political speech--which extends in 
fact much further, to include radio talk show hosts descri!
bing how to kill federal "gun-grabbing" agents and NRA board members 
day-dreaming out loud about the murder of gun control advocates.

Maher soon after his statement was in danger of losing his 
job--something which hasn't happened yet--and received an 
unprecedented public rebuke from Presidential spokesman Ari 
Fleischer, whose remarks were later toned down in the official 
transcript:


"There are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what 
they say, watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like 
that; there never is."

In the weeks after the attacks, we also heard of newspaper columnists 
losing their jobs for remarks that were actually rather mild compared 
to the rhetoric heaped on Bill Clinton for the last eight years. An 
Oregon newspaper, the Daily Courier, fired columnist Dan Guthrie 
after he wrote on September 15 that the president hid "in a Nebraska 
hole" when he should have returned to Washington after the attacks. 
First the newspaper's editor wrote a column apologizing for Guthrie, 
and stating that "Criticism of our chief executive and those around 
him needs to be responsible and appropriate..." Then publisher Dennis 
Mack fired Guthrie, describing it as a "private personnel matter".

Tom Gutting, city editor of the Texas City Sun was also fired by his 
publisher for commenting on the President's behavior the day of the 
attacks:


"There was W. flying around the country like a scared child seeking 
refuge in his mother's bed after having a nightmare....W. has behaved 
like you would expect a first lady to."

(For what its worth, I also agree with Guthrie and Gutting and spoke 
of Bush's disappearance in my own essay written on September 11.)

The conservative National Review dropped columnist Ann Coulter for 
the following opinion:


"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert 
them to Christianity..."

(Do I need to mention I don't agree with Coulter? However, I defend 
her right to blither.)

Through-out our history, more valuable information and debate has 
been stifled by private censorship (including the chilling fear of 
it) than by government intervention. Alexis de Tocqueville recognized 
the contradictory nature of U.S. society, in which freedom of speech 
so often translates into freedom to jump on the bandwagon:


"In our time, the most absolute sovereigns of Europe would have no 
idea how to prevent certain ideas, hostile to their authority, from 
circulating silently in their countries and even in the heart of 
their own courts. Its not at all the same in America: as long as the 
majority is uncertain, everyone speaks; but as soon as the majority 
has irrevocably decided, everyone shuts up, and friends and enemies 
alike seem then to jump, with one accord, on the public bandwagon. 
The reason is simple: there is no monarch so absolute that he can 
hold in his hand all of society's force and vanquish all resistance, 
to the same extent as a democratic majority with the right to make 
and execute the laws."

As disturbing as the firing of columnists is, an incident with even 
worse implications for U.S. democracy was the mainstream media's 
almost total obedience to the President's request that videos of bin 
Laden and other al Quaeda members not be televised. By all 
traditional standards, these were highly newsworthy. Transcripts of 
all of these were made available by the translation service of the 
BBC. For example, on November 3, Al Jazeera broadcast a bin Laden 
video. Bin Laden claimed that polls showed that the Islamic world 
approved of the attacks by a wide majority; spoke of world-wide 
demonstrations opposing U.S. action in Afghanistan; said that the 
Islamic world has been under the "crusader yoke" for 83 years, since 
World War I; and attacked the United Nations, which is widely 
respected in Arab nations for its support of Palestinians, for having 
tolerated or promoted violence against Moslems.

The bin Laden broadcast is newsworthy for several reasons. First, 
consistent with his other utterances, he never denies involvement in 
the U.S. attacks and goes to some length to justify them, supporting 
the circumstantial evidence of his involvement. Secondly, even in 
translation, his precise, rather Talmudic style of argument, with 
constant reference to long-past historical events, gives us 
significant insight into the personality of a once-faceless 
adversary. Third, his reference to the U.N. introduced a potential 
new target of Al Quaeda attacks.

I vaguely recall knowing who Osama bin Laden was before September 11: 
a clever murderer, lurking somewhere, who was linked to the killing 
of U.S. troops in Somalia, the African embassy bombings, and the 
attack on the Cole. Today, I have an intense interest in him, as 
someone who is trying to kill me personally, and that produces a 
desire to find out everything I can.

As I never tire of telling you, I arrived at the World Trade Center 
that morning just as the second plane hit. I saw the flames and 
falling paper, and tiny fragments of glass rained on my head. People 
were dying a short distance away from me; minutes later, as I was 
running across the bridge, I saw someone jump from the south tower.

I have a "pay to play" theory of democracy. I made a partial payment 
on September 11, and I'm willing to pay more: serve on the jury 
trying an Al Quaeda member, even join the armed forces if they'd have 
me. What I want in return is very simple: my seat at the table. And 
that means the information that goes with it. There can be no 
democracy without information; how do you decide what to do, what to 
support or to oppose, without it?

The excuses given by the government for its request not to broadcast 
or even print a transcript of the bin Laden video were laughable. 
Most prominently, the government announced that the videos might 
contain hidden messages, a technique called "steganography". Further 
terrorist attacks might be launched as a result of the bin Laden 
video being broadcast on CNN.

To which I say: Steganography, my ass. How stupid do President Bush, 
Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld believe we are? There has not yet 
been the slightest showing of any hidden messages in any bin Laden 
video, despite obedient, silly news pieces on CNN interviewing 
experts who could only say that it is imaginable that they could be 
there. In these supposedly balanced pieces, where were the experts 
saying how silly the idea was and that it was unsupported by any 
evidence?

Multiple choice question: If you were a terrorist trying to send a 
message to activate a U.S.-based cell, the most effective way to do 
so would be a. a telephone call b. an anonymous email c. Placing a 
classified ad in an obscure newspaper the cell was previously 
instructed to monitor d. Hiding the message in a fifteen minute video 
which you courier to Al Jazeera network and relying on them to 
broadcast it in its entirety enough times for your U.S.-based cell to 
see it.

Raise your hand if you think (d) is the best answer.

However, if bin Laden was strange enough to conceal messages in the 
video or in the language he used, asking CNN and the networks not to 
carry it was a completely ineffective way to block transmission of 
the message, given the fact that it had already been broadcast by Al 
Jazeera, translated and made available by the BBC, etc. Successful 
interdiction of a hidden message still wouldn't prevent the follow up 
phone call or email.

Note also that Rumsfeld et al. failed to run the football through the 
goalposts. If they had taken the steganography chimera to its logical 
conclusion, they could have asked American media to black out the war 
entirely. Taliban mortars might be firing rhythmically in some 
obscure Islamist Morse-like cadence. Afghan refugees in the 
background of crowd scenes might be making hand gestures. John 
Walker, the American Taliban member captured this week, might be 
twitching in code.

Vague, unsupported claims about steganography don't trump my interest 
in receiving accurate information about someone who is trying to kill 
me.

Our government's other statement justifying censorship of the bin 
Laden videos was more honest, though it got less play. Why give 
airtime to Al Quaeda propaganda? This is one of those statements that 
sounds credible, but is not. It pre-supposes two insulting things. 
One is that there is a U.S. audience susceptible to bin Laden's 
message (and Holmes would say that even if there were, they're 
entitled to hear it). The other is that the rest of us don't need or 
are not entitled to the information contained in the "propaganda". 
Propaganda is information; it is an extremely valuable source of 
knowledge about history, intention, and psychology. Mein Kampf is 
freely available in the U.S., and is read much more by people 
interested in understanding what happened than by those looking to 
reaffirm their hatred and desire to commit genocide. Like 
fundamentalists who condemn a book without having read it, the 
government message is that there is information in the world so 
volatile that we!
  are better off being protected from it.

I wanted to be treated as an adult even before September 11, and with 
my life in danger I feel even more strongly about it. Truth is one of 
the cornerstones of democracy; our vote, our decision-making ability, 
is impaired or destroyed when the government lies. The steganography 
story was a silly lie. The truth--the government's desire that bin 
Laden's ideas not be communicated, even though that means denying 
important information to citizens of a democracy--shows how far we 
have fallen from Justice Holmes' defiant and cheerful understanding 
that we can trust ourselves.

I was astonished by the way that the broadcast media immediately 
lined up behind the government without the mildest protest. 
Twenty-four hour news organs, like CNN, are extremely hungry for 
content, and had repeatedly played prior videos in their entirety, 
with simultaneous translation. Once the government asked them to 
stop, the newly-released video warranted only a brief mention without 
even a clip (for fear of those hidden messages).

Why were the broadcast media so docile? In part, for the same reason 
everyone else was. But broadcast media have a unique problem of their 
own, which we ignore or forget in trusting them for information. They 
are licensed and regulated by the FCC. Could the FCC legally pull a 
license from a station which broadcast the bin Laden video in full? 
No. Could the agency make its life quietly miserable? Absolutely. 
Broadcast media executives never forget who holds the leash.

Ernst Renan said that nations hold together based not only on 
collective memory but on collective forgetting as well. As a nation 
we have completely forgotten that the regulation of broadcast media 
began with a bloodbath about seventy years ago. The Federal Radio 
Commission, the FCC's predecessor, targeted political programming and 
drove it off the air to free the spectrum for commercial 
broadcasters. Even seven decades later, the bland, mainstream, 
nonchallenging nature of broadcast media is a product not only of 
audience desires but of the shadow of government regulation. As the 
ACLU's Morris Ernst said in the 1930's, "So long as the Department 
can determine which individuals shall be endowed with larynxes, it 
does not need additional power to determine what shall be said."

What about the print media? I was startled by the way they lined up 
too. In the New York Times, which I count on for much (too much) of 
my information about the world, the bin Laden video was no longer 
front page news and no transcript was published. Again we seem to 
have fallen a long way from the days of the Pentagon Papers and the 
brave stand the Washington Post and the Times made against the Nixon 
administration.

De Tocqueville provides the explanation. For most of the 1960's, the 
press also lined up to support the Vietnam war. When the press first 
began to examine the other side of the war--to ask questions about 
whether the strategy made sense, the tactics were working, whether 
civilians were being killed--they were moving in accordance with a 
power shift that was already taking place in America. The press was 
leading, but it was also following, like a middle manager or a 
mid-level military officer. Significant constituencies in U.S. 
business and politics had not waited for the Pentagon Papers to start 
wondering if the war made any sense. In de Tocqueville's terms, 
powerful people had already started jumping from the bandwagon. Which 
is not to say that the Post and Times were not brave, did not behave 
admirably, to stand up to the power (including the threat of illicit 
action and even violence) of the Executive Branch.

After September 11, everyone was on the bandwagon. As three months 
have passed without further Al Quaeda violence, and as we seem to be 
winning the war, the print media are less frightened and there is a 
slightly wider spread of opinion. Opposing voices have been heard on 
the military tribunals, for example.

Speaking as a hawk, one who believes this is a just war, I want to 
know where the antiwar voices were. CNN presented us with the usual 
assortment of ex-generals analyzing air strikes, but where was Noam 
Chomsky, saying that we shouldn't be bombing Afghanistan at all? I 
did not see Chomsky in the Times op ed pages either, nor any other 
guest editorial opposing the war. Certainly those voices are out 
there; Chomsky spoke out forcefully in the small publications which 
carry him. Why were antiwar views not represented in a mass media 
which still likes to think of itself as the "fourth estate", affected 
with a public interest?

Arriving at the truth in a democracy (as elsewhere) is a dialectical 
process, where opposing views muster information in support and each 
of us then makes our decision. Since September 11 the press has 
consistently and miserably failed to present the other side of a 
debate. It has not just failed to present the Al Quaeda view-- that 
Americans deserve to be killed--though that has informational value 
in evaluating personal risk and deciding what government responses to 
support. The press has even failed to present the view that the 
bombing of Afghanistan was a use of excessive force, or force applied 
in the wrong place; or the view that law, rather than war, is the 
answer.

My libertarian friends claim that the public responsibilities of the 
press are a myth, that a newspaper is a business like any other, and 
will only print what most of its audience wants to hear. But the 
Times serves other minorities, such as those who read the bridge 
column or the coverage of less popular sports; and diversity and even 
adversity on the op ed pages was once thought to sell papers. No, I 
think the true explanation of the obedient silence of the U.S. press 
is not fear of its own readership, but is due to a disturbance 
elsewhere in the force: a fear of offending a government and a 
majority strongly aligned with one another, de Tocqueville's 
"democratic majority with the right to make and execute the laws." 
But it is precisely in times like these that we most desperately need 
the information, as well as exposure to the variety of viewpoints 
that convey it.

**************************************************************************
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From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 22:16:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:16:29 -0500
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <3C168509.18807.84DAC7@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011211121523.02278070@mail.well.com>
  <3C15CD33.16918.3370B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212011539.00a769a0@mail.well.com>


Of course there are other considerations in a settlement, such as avoiding 
bad publicity -- even if you think you might win a case by arguing you made 
a mistake but it was not malicious. But you know that.

I expect this will be my last message in the thread.

-Declan

At 10:13 PM 12/11/2001 -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>CNN edited interviews with people so as to make them appear
>to admit to war crimes commited against civilians during the
>Vietnam war, when the full transcript showed no such
>admissions.  Those people threatened to sue.  CNN then paid
>those people large sums of money in settlement of threatened
>libel suits.  Under America's extremely liberal libel laws,
>CNN would not have done so unless those defamed had a good
>case of malicious libel.




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 22:40:47 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:40:47 -0500
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: ; from
  nobody@dizum.com on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:20:25PM +0100
References: 
Message-ID: <20011212014047.A30112@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:20:25PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Taxes (much higher than before due to the greater expenses of operating
> the government) could be charged based on imputed property values
> depending on zip code and acreage.  Everyone in a particular neighborhood
> would be charged a fixed amount per square foot.  Any household which
> does not provide the required fee (via cryptographic anonymous transfer
> into the government account of course) would have its property subject
> to confiscation by police.  Armed resistance would be met by military
> force including helicopter gunships.

Without getting into any AP discussion, I would point out that there
are some positive things to be said about turning to property taxes.

Also, if you fail to pay your property tax now, it will (in extremis)
be confiscated. Armed resistance to confiscation would be met by
escalation, including, if necessary, military helicopters.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 22:49:21 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:49:21 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To: <200112120101.fBC11Bl09585@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from
  emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 05:01:11PM -0800
References: <20011211194218.A14237@cluebot.com>
  <200112120101.fBC11Bl09585@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20011212014921.B30112@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 05:01:11PM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
> OK.  How about "well-funded?"  :)
> 
> I count $1,270,000 in grants to the organization since its creation as the

Compared to giants like Brookings? Not well-funded, well-known, big,
nor powerful. Few folks even in DC have heard of it. $1M in grants
over a period of years is not much by Washington policy group standards.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 23:01:07 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 02:01:07 -0500
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 06:12:17PM -0600
References:  
Message-ID: <20011212020107.C30112@cluebot.com>


Sigh. Choate on court decisions is like Ashcroft on civil liberties.
Neither understands them.

(Though I admit that Choate makes a common-sense point that does not,
alas, jibe the rulings in the crypto cases.)

-Declan

On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 06:12:17PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:
> 
> > In the most recent ruling, Universal v. Remerdez/Eric Corley 2600.com 
> > (00-9185), http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-cad.htm , the US Court of 
> > Appeals for the Second Circuit declined to overturn an injunction 
> > against the posting of DeCSS on the Internet. The Court held that 
> > software was speech, but did not enjoy the level of First Amendment 
> > protection accorded to pure speech because it is functional with 
> > little human intervention.
> 
> That's where 'press' comes into play. The 1st provides two protections.
> The first is to have an opinion and to express it, 'speech'. The second is
> 'press' which guarantees the right to share with other humans. Speech that
> is not shared, after all, is no better than speech not uttered. Now this
> explicitly protects the hardware and 'non-human' mechanisms that humans
> use to distribute their speech. The courts will eventually find that the
> sharing of speech, irrespective of mechanism, is protected. To deny an
> individual a mechanism to share their speech is in fact a violation of
> their speech. In addition the first does NOT draw ANY distinctions about
> what sorts of speech are or are not protected, it simply says 'speech' is 
> protected.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Dec 11 23:29:18 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 02:29:18 -0500
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship in Wartime
Message-ID: 



From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Tue Dec 11 18:21:19 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:21:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/12/10/anonymous.e.mail.ap/index.html


SAN JOSE, California (AP) -- For years, anonymous e-mail has been a choice 
tool for whistle-blowers, human rights activists and undercover sources 
looking to protect themselves while imparting vital information.

Anonymous online communication could just as easily be used by terrorists 
to plot attacks or send threats. 

Yet little has changed since September 11 for users and operators of 
Internet-based anonymous e-mail servers, which launder messages by 
deleting identifying information, rendering them virtually untraceable. 

Now there are indications the servers have increased in number. 

While no evidence has been released linking such services to any criminal 
or terrorist conspiracy, experts fear governments could crack down on 
anonymous remailers -- or at least subject them to greater scrutiny. 

Law enforcement generally despises technology that leaves such cold 
trails, said Mark Rasch, former head of the Department of Justice's 
computer crimes unit and current vice president of cyberlaw at Predictive 
Systems. 

So far, U.S. and European authorities battling terrorism and cybercrime 
have apparently focused their surveillance elsewhere. The FBI and the 
National Security Agency, which monitors international telecommunications, 
declined to comment on what strategy, if any, they have for dealing with 
remailers.

"There's a lot more concern about border security and banking records," 
said Mike Godwin, a policy fellow at the Center for Democracy and 
Technology. 

That's just fine with the people who operate remailers. They don't do it 
for money, but rather share a common ideal of protecting online privacy. 

Len Sassaman, an e-mail security consultant who runs a remailer as a 
hobby, thinks any attempts to crack down would lead to more cropping up 
around the world. 


[...]




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 11:07:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:07:36 +1100
Subject: AP Al Quim.I was a teenage assasin.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212054310.00a53eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >At 10:17 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote: >Jim seems to have missed out on 
teenagerhood.CJ seems not to have left >teenagerhood.The boiling pot is 
like darwins discovery of evolution,It The personal flaws of an author do 
not detract from his ideas.

What personal flaws? I mean no disrespect to jim and cj at all.To me 
teenagerhoods good.Very good.(check google if you dont believe me) Im sorry 
that it appears jim missed out a little.I have no way of knowing that 
actually so Im taking liberties.I guess jim got into trouble for 
stinkbombing,destroying mail and stalking because he just wanted to get 
more publicity?
And CJ was clearly set up but from what I read of his he has a great spirit 
that gets crushed out of most of us some time between childhood and 
adulthood.If growing up means accepting 5 million laws and all the grey 
mind dead bureaucrats
that go with them,I refuse to grow up.
The ideas remain undetracted by my petty bitching about jims use of freud 
and his choice of restaurants,what was the supposed 'hate' literature in 
his car btw?
CJ is immaculate in my book.The very model of a modern major madcriminal.I 
just cant read all his stuff,right away.Im fuckin busy man,allright?

KILLTHEPRESIDENTTHENBILLGATESTHENDICKCHENEYTHENTHENEXTPRESIDENTANDSOONFOREVERKILLKILL.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 11:27:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:27:50 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212061517.00a53360@pop.useoz.com>


.>..regarding Assassination Politics: > > Just keep in mind that AP is a 
joke among knowledgeable > > technologists for >its unworkability, but a 
wonderful joke > > on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt. > 
Total bullshit again. Yes, but the reason it's bullshit is that shooting 
messengers does no good. It leaves intact the originators of the message, 
all hundred- million of them. Tomorrow, the hundred million will be 
stumbling over each other trying to empower new messengers to replace those 
fallen. Who else but the messengers (politicians, bureaucrats, etc.) is 
going to collect the >money to pay the Social Security, after all? Who else 
is going to halt the drug trade?

Assassination Politics
Convicted tax evader Jim Bell proposes a system of anonymous ecash awards 
for the murder of "aggressors", such as IRS agents. See also Crypto-Convict 
Won't Recant. What he misses is that his system, if tolerated, would merely 
force government to operate secretly rather than openly
FROM http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html

Jim says in the essay,It doesnt have to be,"wild in the streets"He doesn't 
miss a trick.He talks of the possibility of minarchy.Does anyone actually 
read the fucking essay? I part with him on offing forest grunts,btw.Its not 
about shooting 'messengers'.Its about making very credible threats to limit 
violence.Paradoxical but effective.
Halting the drug trades as imbecilic an idea as a "war on terror"
KILLTHEPRESIDENTKILLTHEPRESIDENTFASTERPUSSYCATKILLKILL.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 11:36:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:36:53 +1100
Subject: N-grams and the state, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212063222.00a53d60@pop.useoz.com>


At 11:25 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
 >"...What are N-Grams? N-Gram Analysis is a a method patented by the NSA
..."
 >
 >"You spooks are a bunch of gray, snivelling, alcoholic, Aldrich Ames
 >lookalikes driving around in your rusty Toyotas."

Perhaps, but this does not negate the discriminative value of n-grams.

END.

Look baba rum raisin,Your right,I rush sometimes,relying on the good will 
and intelligence of the list and I make mistakes.Im sorry.OK.Ill try not to 
do it again.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 04:49:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:49:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <20011212014047.A30112@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Without getting into any AP discussion, I would point out that there
> are some positive things to be said about turning to property taxes.
> 
> Also, if you fail to pay your property tax now, it will (in extremis)
> be confiscated. Armed resistance to confiscation would be met by
> escalation, including, if necessary, military helicopters.

So the property you own is really(!) owned by the state and you pay the
initial payments for title transfer and the taxes during occupation
(sounds like rent doesn't it?) unless you default in which case they take
their property back...

Seems to me the ideal strategy is to not own anything of significant
value.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 04:52:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:52:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> strong policies)  and need to be incentivized (paid remailers, an old 
> topic).

The perenial failing in the CACL approach to this problem, and the primary
reason they will fail. They'll sit around on their ass waiting until they
can make money...gives you an idea of where their priorities REALLY are.

> A chicken or egg situation? Ideally, simultaneous development...plenty 
> of precedents for market forces pushing stronger products that customers 
> are willing to pay for.

Really? Example please.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 04:55:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:55:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: <20011212020107.C30112@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Sigh. Choate on court decisions is like Ashcroft on civil liberties.
> Neither understands them.

Ad hominim, ad hominim, ad nausium.

Grow up Declan.

> (Though I admit that Choate makes a common-sense point that does not,
> alas, jibe the rulings in the crypto cases.)

The rulings ARE what we're talking about changing. In addition we're not
talking about what IS but what SHOULD be.

Your assertions of 'how it will be' and 'how it should be' are no more
valid than mine (and a hell of a lot less accurate if you go back and look
at what actually happened).

No, the current bitching over crypto and IP will be resolved in the next
ten years. One way or another. And to decide how we, as individuals,
should participate and to what end is guided by NOTHING else than common
sense (Isn't there a very important book with a similar title that's of
some import to this discussion?).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:07:07 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:07:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Hi,

I have the highest regard for Phil (ever since I got PGP 1.0 off Adelante
BBS about two days after Phil released the program - I still have that
disk and posted an image to the CDR last New Years) - HOWEVER....

These ideas are NOT Phil's. A perusal of the CDR archives will demonstrate
that I've been working and talking on these ideas for over ten years.

If Phil, or any others, would like to participate in a real world
demonstration of this sort of technology over the next couple of years
then I invite them to review,

http://plan9.bell-labs.com

and to participate in the community project,

http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote:

> 
> 
> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:37:52 -0500
> From: David Shaw 
> To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
> Cc: Seth David Schoen 
> Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange
> 
> On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0800, Seth David Schoen wrote:
> 
> > > So Phil's robot CA idea actually sounds more practical to me than
> > > Brad's idea; in particular, it has better compatibility with regular
> > > PGP encryption -- and it seems that it may be more robust in some
> > > ways.  The robot CA is intuitive and fairly secure if you don't expect
> > > active MITM attacks.
> >
> > The Board of Directors of EFF met today in San Francisco, and I made a
> > presentation about this, in the presence of Brad Templeton and others.
> > One of the conclusions was that EFF's role in implementing something
> > like this is still not defined clearly enough, and we don't know what
> > we could most usefully do.
> >
> > For example, some people like the idea of standardizing protocols
> > through the IETF; others prefer a completely independent development
> > of a spec (possibly with advance commitments or at least expressions
> > of interest from vendors), and then submission to standards bodies
> > after the technical work is more of a fait accompli.  There is some
> > disagreement about who exactly should write which code, for what
> > platform, and what effect it would have for different people (e.g.
> > famous cryptographers, civil liberties organizations, well-known
> > scientists or network engineers) to endorse various approaches in
> > various places.
> >
> > We want to figure out more about what EFF can best do to make this
> > happen.  Brad Templeton is planning to write to Phil Zimmermann, and I
> > plan to write to Phil Karn and some other people.
> 
> After the Zimmermann article appeared, I emailed him and we spoke on
> the phone for a few hours about the possibilities here.  He's an
> interesting guy.  We discussed some concerns I had with the robot CA
> concept as without client support, or a special robot keyserver along
> with (or part of) the robot CA, there are some problems.  All in all,
> I like his ideas for the robot CA (he had some ideas to extend this to
> a robot "designated revoker" as well as a few other useful things).
> 
> > Brad was concerned that the robot CA is a single point of failure and
> > an easy target for attacks (DOS, subpoena, physical intrusions); it
> > _does_ hold some secret and trusted information (its own private
> > signing key) and also has a uniquely valuable key which can be
> > compromised -- an event which would tend to undermine the entire
> > scheme.  He added that both schemes are equally secure against passive
> > wiretapping, and the scheme he outlined can survive even if the
> > organizations which originally supported it go away.
> 
> One possible way to address some of Brad's concerns with Phil
> Zimmermann's scheme is to create a meta-key, stored offline, with some
> rigidly followed procedure for its use (this should be analogous to a
> non-robot CA master key handling).  Use this key to sign a number of
> additional keys[1] for each robot CA.  This gives you a few
> improvements - one, you have more than one robot CA, all equally
> valid, so there is no longer a single point of failure.  A reasonable
> optimization here would be for each robot to look for a signature from
> a different robot and refuse to sign.  In the case of robot compromise
> (legal or illegal), the robot's key can be revoked.  This may hurt the
> people who had their keys signed by that particular robot, but does
> not affect the rest.  This revision also allows the scheme to survive
> if some of the robots go away - as long as the keeper of the master
> key does not go away.
> 
> For me, the piece of the "get everyone using encryption" project that
> Brad really hit on the head is the need for absolutely zero UI.
> 
> To do this well in the client, we're really going to need some amount
> of vendor buy-in.  Without zero (or pretty darn close to zero) UI, we
> can poke around with simplifying key management for years without
> accomplishing much because of the "If I have to do anything to use it,
> then I won't use it" mindset.  I don't really like doing the
> encryption in the MTA as that puts the responsibility on a machine in
> the ISP.  This machine is likely to be a far richer prize to an
> attacker than a home box, as well as being far more snoopable on via
> legal or illegal means.
> 
> > I want to bifurcate the issue and ask everyone here:
> >
> > (1) What's the best design for an "informal key exchange" scheme in
> > which active MITM attacks may be permitted, but privacy against
> > passive wiretapping (as well as trivial impersonation attacks) is
> > maintained?  How can this be implemented with the smaller amount of
> > user interface, while maintaining the largest amount of compatibility
> > in both directions with existing e-mail privacy systems for
> > sophisticated users?
> 
> The easiest thing to do would be a email header that contains key
> information.  Loads of people do this already ("X-My-PGP-Key: ..." and
> similar).  If we could standardize a format, then smart clients could
> use it to automatically fetch the key.  I'd suggest some sort of URL,
> for maximum flexibility.  For bandwidth and messiness reasons, I don't
> really like the S/MIME feature of sending the key around all the time.
> 
> Using a new email header for this has the nice feature of not breaking
> any of the current email infrastructure - any non-capable clients will
> just ignore it.
> 
> > (2) What's the best way to get such a system designed and deployed to
> > the general public?  How can an organization like EFF best help
> > accomplish this?  Whose help do we need?
> 
> Microsoft (like it or not, they make one of the most widely used MUAs
> on the planet).  AOL/Netscape.  And the developers of as many mailers
> we can get to listen.  If this only happens in the open-source world,
> then we're not really solving the problem.
> 
> Way back when, Netscape did a cute thing to push https: it made a big
> deal of the security icons on the browser, and made sure that you knew
> you did not have an encrypted connection when you submitted a form.
> I'd love to see mailers scold the user this way if they tried to send
> an unencrypted email.
> 
> I favor using OpenPGP as the underlying protocol for all of this as
> there is wide understanding of OpenPGP and lots of code available
> under various licenses, including the GPL.  Using OpenPGP also allows
> "power users" to use the full OpenPGP trust model if they choose to
> without affecting the people using the simplified model.
> 
> I am very interested in working on these problems with anyone else who
> would like to join me.
> 
> David
> 
> [1] This could also be OpenPGP-style signing subkeys, but for a
>     handful of reasons (the keyservers not handling keys like that
>     very well for starters) it may better to use other keys.
> 
> -- 
>    David Shaw  |  dshaw at jabberwocky.com  |  WWW http://www.jabberwocky.com/
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>    "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX.
>       We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:09:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:09:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The fucking essay 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212233256.00aae9d0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

>  >>Hate to break it to you but Freud <> Psychology.
> 
> On choate prime maybe.Read G.steinem on fraud? I do reckon WH Reich <> mass 
> pschology of fascism.

Yeah, right. Keep telling yourself that. Clearly you've NEVER actually
talked or read a psych book in the last 50 years.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 12:11:55 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:11:55 +1100
Subject: Quantum encryption hazard
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212063721.00a55b40@pop.useoz.com>


Quantum mechanics based on heisenbergs uncertainty principal is under 
attack.The two slit experiment has another explanation that even revives 
'ether'
According to electrical engineering professor,bill honig.
The theory feynman was sure no one quite understood and einstein mistrusted 
may be about to be superceded with potential to crack crypto's,holy 
grail,Quantum encryption.
Quantum mechanics is 75 years young and the cornerstone of the modern 
scientific world view.But it has its dissidents.
Bill honig's an internationally recognized inventor,journal editor and long 
time academic at curtin university.A skeptical inquirer whose doubts about 
the orthodoxy are caused by logic.
His rebellion took shape as a  teen  prodigy at a brooklyn high 
school,asking too many questions about quantum mechanics.He went into 
electrical engineering and rose high in military research.Then in 
mid-career,while working on nuclear weapons he had a change of 
heart.Looking in an atlas for a new home that might be safe and peaceful 
and passing over iceland he settled on perth.WA.au.
Believing we can and must describe the fundamental particles of matter as 
they really are there and not blurs of probability is carrying on einsteins 
fight.In this old/new picture of the subatomic world,the basic particles 
are spinning,electromagnetically
charged droplets;as they change speed they cast off expanding 
"photexes"that are compared with smoke rings,rippling outward.Space is an 
ether made up of two oppositely charged fluids.
END extract.more at... http://www.physicsessays.com/  Honig has picked up 
and carried forward work by paul dirac.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:28:42 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:28:42 -0600
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
Message-ID: <3C175B8A.8E03FFBF@ssz.com>


Who again has been saying for 10+ years that this sort of behaviour (incl.
Open Relay scanning, which isn't covered here) is trespass? Check the
archives folks...will Declan give predictive credit where credit is due?
Probably not, that takes being honest...

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49031,00.html


-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:31:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:31:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: : Re: AP Al Qaeda 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213012017.00a17310@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



Get your damn quoting right, Declan didn't right the '> >' delimited text
as you indicate.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> > So the property you own is really(!) owned by the state and you pay
> > the initial payments for title transfer and the taxes during occupation 
> > (sounds like rent doesn't it?) unless you default in which case they take 
> > their property back... Seems to me the ideal strategy is to not own 
> > anything of significant value.
> 
> "Aint got nothing,got nothing to lose"
> 
> A lot of barristers have gone bankrupt lately,It hasn't cramped their 
> billing style though.This threads veering into socialistic territory,Im 
> telling jamesd!
> Also AP comes out of tax revolt,dont try and separate it out,declan.Start a 
> new thread on property taxes.Im taxing the land
> where the cato institute stands,btw.If I dont get 100,000 k per annum I 
> send in my new OSD black helicopters.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 12:50:15 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:50:15 +1100
Subject: 48 hours
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212074213.00a3f110@pop.useoz.com>


The au puppet satellite state is bringing in legislation to allow unnamed 
secret police (against law to reveal their ID)
to kidnap and keep people 48 hous.Presumably they may then be 
rekidnapped.My response at melb indymedia.



48 hours in a windowless box,under full time,lights on surveillance with a 
toothache?
been there,done that.
With creeping secrecy y'all wont have to worry your pretty little heads at 
all.A drumhead secret military court can disappear independent journalists 
without a trace.

"The govt.doesn't protect me from the terrorists,the govt.is the terrorist"

AND

What scares the state?
by proffr 5:58pm Thu Nov 29 '01



The state fear 'assasination politics'
I hope they are correct to do so.
Lawyers and journalists should be stocking up on crypto right now and no 
one should do business with a lawyer or journalist without 
crypto,preferably in a confessional box.

Before 1975, most of us would not have been able to imagine public-key 
encryption.Encryption can pose potentially insurmountable challenges to law 
enforcement and should when law enforcement becomes kidnapping.

The governmental powers that be can't do much about drug-dealing or 
terrorism--if only because they themselves are the chief drug dealers and 
the chief terrorists.Fuck this government. We are the government and we say 
what happens and doesn't happen in this country.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Dec 12 08:20:28 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:20:28 -0800
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and 
  Self-Censorship in Wartime
In-Reply-To: <20011212103938.A21310@cluebot.com>
References: 
  
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011212082028.009cb150@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:39 AM 12/12/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>PS: Not all libertarians believe the "the public responsibilities of
>the press are a myth." It's entirely possible to reconcile that phrase
>with the idea that a newspaper is a for-profit business.
>

I'm afraid the closest I can come is to recognize that a presscorp
(or reporter!) has only its reputation to sell; and when bias is exposed
that is
reduced.  But no 'public' anything; a newspaper (like a web server) does not
need a 'public' license to use a 'public' resource like the EM spectrum or
the cable infrastructure.

Just my 2 picas.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Dec 12 09:02:18 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:02:18 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212011539.00a769a0@mail.well.com>
References: <3C168509.18807.84DAC7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C171D1A.13747.2A30C3@localhost>


    --
On 12 Dec 2001, at 1:16, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Of course there are other considerations in a settlement,
> such as avoiding bad publicity -- even if you think you
> might win a case by arguing you made a mistake but it was
> not malicious.

Just google through the Tailwind debate.  The CNN supporters
said that the tape contained clear admissions of war crimes,
which of course it did.  I just quoted one such seemingly
clear, unambiguous admission of enormous war crimes at the
start of this thread.

The interviewees denied saying what the tape showed them to
be saying.  Then, under great pressure, CNN released the
transcript.

 The CNN opponents pointed out that the transcript of  the
 material that was edited into the tape did not contain these
 admissions.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     vwLPU/rJyiCOkPVZmXdWV4gTv42cEm3WgHDYaeaG
     4w/137NdrfRTn1IAcef9FvJYsRFgjs++515BhAJ2d




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Dec 12 06:16:41 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:16:41 -0500
Subject: Choate vs mattd [was: RE: The fucking essay]
Message-ID: 



This should be fun to watch. Let's hope the
result is similar to the matchup of the Kilkenny cats.

    "There once were two cats of Kilkenny 
     Each thought there was one cat too many 
     So they fought and they fit, 
     And they scratched and they bit, 
     Till excepting their nails and the tips of their tails 
     Instead of two cats there weren't any."

Peter Trei




From db at db.com  Wed Dec 12 09:22:19 2001
From: db at db.com (Dirk Boxcuttah)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:22:19 -0800
Subject: cryptographic fantasy (ca. "Stego, my ass" by WF Buckley)
Message-ID: <3C17924B.C5F2B6AD@db.com>


The notion that Osama would use a filmed interview to
send out recondite commands is cryptographic fantasy.

 William F. Buckley Jr.
OSAMA THE INVINCIBLE
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ucwb/20011211/cm/osama_the_invincible_1.html




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Dec 12 09:27:37 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:27:37 -0800
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and 
  Self-Censorship in Wartime
In-Reply-To: <20011212103938.A21310@cluebot.com>
References: ; from 
  freematt@coil.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:29:18AM -0500
Message-ID: <3C172309.27025.4160CC@localhost>


    --
On 12 Dec 2001, at 10:39, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> * Is it appropriate to use the powerful word "censorship"
> to describe what happened when the National Review dropped
> Ann Coulter? Coulter has other outlets that will publish
> her work; she is not muzzled. Like other news organizations
> with a certain perspective, the National Review has an
> implicit contract with their writers that says something 
> like 
> our-publication-has-a-distinct-point-of-view-and-we-don't-w
> ant-to-run- stuff-far-outside-of-it. In the absence of
> evidence to the contrary, it's reasonable to assume that
> she understood this implicit agreement when she signed up.
> More to the point, she (I recall) took her initial 
> grievance over not running the column public and slammed
> the editors, who then axed her. Using "censorship" to
> characterize the facts of this dispute weakens the term for
> when it's really needed -- to describe government action
> that puts people in prison cells.

There has been far more concern about opponents of the war
being intimidated than supporters.  Yet the nearest thing to
real censorship happened to Ann Coulter, for calling for holy
war against Muslims.  Meanwhile college professors loudly
complain that the occupants of the trade towers had it coming
to them for imperialism, colonialism, and oppression, and
keep their jobs, and a comic strip spits on the flag, and is
not dropped.

What happened to Ann Coulter is not censorship, but it is lot
closer to censorship than the fact that the tenured
supporters of terror find themselves mentioned as tenured
supporters of terror. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     ECRQ3GNzWa3w1DfiuPn0yEoQADgEGvtt2hHaEfve
     4/reRMzTElycsdxaYn+TsS9bCQ0dkjGh1f8NApxoB




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 14:50:18 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:50:18 +1100
Subject: Nobrain nescio
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212091639.00a46eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>But with AP any small group of people that can put up enough money to
 >hire an assassin can get their way.  The going rate for a murder is
around $5-10K to off an average person, more if he's heavily guarded.
 >If 100 people put up $100 each then that's enough to get someone killed.

Thats what I keep telling them at indymedia,we can leverage our numbers to 
bring justice and protect freedom of speech.
Indy keeps no logs and you can go there quad anon,pledge your bloc's 5-10 k 
and leave.Payable after the revolution,no crypto required.This is operation 
soft drill and will leave cypherpunks as a right racist cul de sac.

 >>Imagine a secret ballot where any measure to increase government power
would pass if it received as few as 100 votes.  How much freedom would
 >you have left in such a society?  That's what AP represents.

Der,as much freedom as you have now? Is it true there are 5 million laws in 
the US now?

 >And keep in mind that the people buying the assassination are fully
anonymous.  There is no way to know who is funding the AP market.  There
is no check or limit on the extent to which anonymous individuals with
 >>private grievances can buy the deaths of anyone who gets in their way.

NOMEN

AP or militant anti-choice fanatics already operating? In the 'let it all 
hang out' version of AP,operation soft drill,no ones anonymous unless they 
want,its an exercise in civil disobedience and whats the charge again? 
betting on a date?
SAMPLE
OSD international calls for pledges to be pooled and paid for the closest 
prediction of the exact time that noshame nescio ceases to post silly 
rubbish to this list.I pledge 1 dollar,I will send to the anonymous predictor.

 >>Police forces, heavily armed and always travelling in teams,
will receive their orders via encrypted, digitally signed messages from
elected officials.  Any government official who must interact with the
public, whether a building inspector, a drivers' license examiner, even
a fireman, would get hazardous duty pay.  Wearing masks might become
 >routine for such officials.

Wow! No one will ever find them out! They would be queuing up to predict 
the retirement of any ashcroft on steroids who tried this 
foolishness.Listen to yourself.Are you an american? (Minarchy anyone?)

 >>Taxes (much higher than before due to the greater expenses of operating
the government) could be charged based on imputed property values
depending on zip code and acreage.  Everyone in a particular neighborhood
would be charged a fixed amount per square foot.  Any household which
does not provide the required fee (via cryptographic anonymous transfer
into the government account of course) would have its property subject
 >to confiscation by police.  Armed resistance would be met by military
 >force including helicopter gunships.

Isnt this already going on? RICO.(+like the anti-abortion zealots 
thang.)Could lead to violent revolt,
if true.The police state would have to be 1984 in size and scope.2 million 
prisoners in US gulag.(dont frighten the horses:)
No sense of citizens options here nes.Like rent strikes,slowdowns,defacing 
the currency,the list is endless.
Read some  anarchy,or even cia(nica manual) will you,there are some 
anarchists here.

 >>We can live in a world of crypto anarchy, but it won't be pretty.  And the
government certainly won't wither away.  Anyone who thinks that attacking
the government will weaken it should have learned a lesson from September
 >11th.  When it feels itself under attack, the government strikes back

How can we have our crypto anarchic cake and eat it? There is finally one 
question only,who is to be master,thats all?
We live in crypto anarchy more and more."The bourgeois fascist state may 
leave this world in
ruins but dont forget who built those cities and can build them again for 
themselves.
We have always lived in ruins and holes in the wall,yet its us that will 
inherit the earth,
we carry a new world in our hearts...that world is growing as we speak." 
Durrutti.

 >We are all the losers as our freedoms are destroyed.

All things must be paid for in this world.Tanstaafl.Shrub? "Id buy that for 
a dollar!"


KILLTHEPRESIDENTKILLTHEPRESIDENTFASTERPUSSYCATKILLKILL.




From declan at well.com  Wed Dec 12 07:39:38 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:39:38 -0500
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship in Wartime
In-Reply-To: ; from
  freematt@coil.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:29:18AM -0500
References: 
Message-ID: <20011212103938.A21310@cluebot.com>


I always enjoy Jonathan's essays, and this one is no exception. He
properly points out the disturbing analogy that Attorney General
Ashcroft seems to make (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02900.html)
between criticism and treason. The craven broadcast media, as
Jonathan says, buckling to government "please-don't-air-this" pressure
is almost as disgraceful.

But a few points:

* Is it appropriate to use the powerful word "censorship" to describe
what happened when the National Review dropped Ann Coulter? Coulter
has other outlets that will publish her work; she is not muzzled. Like
other news organizations with a certain perspective, the National
Review has an implicit contract with their writers that says something
like
our-publication-has-a-distinct-point-of-view-and-we-don't-want-to-run-
stuff-far-outside-of-it. In the absence of evidence to the contrary,
it's reasonable to assume that she understood this implicit agreement
when she signed up. More to the point, she (I recall) took her initial
grievance over not running the column public and slammed the editors,
who then axed her. Using "censorship" to characterize the facts of
this dispute weakens the term for when it's really needed -- to
describe government action that puts people in prison cells.

* Of course it's disturbing when government officials tell Americans
to self-censor. But it is also important to note, lest this vital fact
be lost in the charges of "private censorship," that I can think of no
court action the government has taken to prevent people from speaking
or publishing information about the "war on terror." A quick review of
(http://www.ncac.org/issues/freeex911.html) doesn't show anything.
Obviously phone calls from White House aides can have a chilling
effect, but then again the news organization or ISP can stand firm and
call the government's bluff. (And yes, I'd say this lack of such cases
is due in large part to the actions of civil libertarians like
Jonathan.)

-Declan

PS: Not all libertarians believe the "the public responsibilities of
the press are a myth." It's entirely possible to reconcile that phrase
with the idea that a newspaper is a for-profit business.


On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:29:18AM -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> From: jw at bway.net
> To: freematt at coil.com
> Subject: Year Zero: Private and self-censorship
> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:44:34 GMT
> 
> 
> Steganography, My Ass:
> The Dangers of Private and Self-Censorship in Wartime
> by Jonathan Wallace jw at bway.net
> 
> The categories of speech protected by the First Amendment are 
> well-known, and despite the repetitive chatter on Internet mailing 
> lists, are not in serious dispute. Supreme Court decisions 
> interpreting the constitution have made absolutely clear that highly 
> unpalatable political speech, and even words of quite hateful and 
> violent import, have absolute protection (so long as they don't fall 
> into the very narrow pigeonhole of threats conveying an immediate 
> fear of violence to a specific individual). We can argue about what 
> the First Amendment ought to protect, debate whether and how to 
> change the Constitution. But there can be no serious discussion today 
> of whether, for example, web pages calling for Jihad or approving the 
> destruction of the World Trade Center and the murder of Americans, 
> are protected by the First Amendment. They indisputably are.
> 
> Justice Holmes, creator of the operative metaphor for U.S. speech 
> freedoms, the "marketplace of ideas", made clear in a famous dissent 
> that the First Amendment's sweep reaches the most offensive political 
> speech imaginable:
> 
> 
> "If in the long run, the beliefs expressed in proletarian 
> dictatorship are destined to be accepted by the dominant forces of 
> the community, the only meaning of free speech is that they should be 
> given their chance and have their way."
> 
> Yet pages approving violence and terrorism against the U.S. were 
> pulled from numerous U.S.-based servers soon after September 11, 
> without any recourse for the people maintaining them. The reason that 
> there was no constitutional violation was that (as Internet debaters 
> sometimes forget) the First Amendment only protects us against 
> government interventions in speech. It doesn't protect us against 
> each other.
> 
> Purveyors of free web space such as Geocities and Tripod have "Terms 
> of Service" (TOS) contracts that users must accept which give the 
> companies broad discretion to reject and close web sites for their 
> presentation of constitutionally-protected but politically 
> unpalatable speech. TOS violations were probably the single most 
> important justification for the acts of commercial censorship which 
> occurred this fall.
> 
> However, another more widespread but even less visible force at work 
> chilling speech was the fear of job or social consequences of 
> expression of unpopular ideas. In the first flush of emotion after 
> the attacks, we had several remarkable examples, unusual mainly for 
> being examples of public rather than highly private retaliations. 
> Television host Bill Maher (paid after all for saying outrageous, 
> attention-getting things) made the comment that terrorists who are 
> willing to give their lives, whatever else they may be, cannot 
> accurately be described as "cowardly". (By the way, he is right about 
> this and I have made the same observation myself.) He then went a 
> step further and said that firing cruise missiles from a distance is 
> more properly described as "cowardly". Whatever you may believe about 
> Maher's taste and timing, his words fall squarely within the 
> protected realm of vivid American political speech--which extends in 
> fact much further, to include radio talk show hosts descri!
> bing how to kill federal "gun-grabbing" agents and NRA board members 
> day-dreaming out loud about the murder of gun control advocates.
> 
> Maher soon after his statement was in danger of losing his 
> job--something which hasn't happened yet--and received an 
> unprecedented public rebuke from Presidential spokesman Ari 
> Fleischer, whose remarks were later toned down in the official 
> transcript:
> 
> 
> "There are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what 
> they say, watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like 
> that; there never is."
> 
> In the weeks after the attacks, we also heard of newspaper columnists 
> losing their jobs for remarks that were actually rather mild compared 
> to the rhetoric heaped on Bill Clinton for the last eight years. An 
> Oregon newspaper, the Daily Courier, fired columnist Dan Guthrie 
> after he wrote on September 15 that the president hid "in a Nebraska 
> hole" when he should have returned to Washington after the attacks. 
> First the newspaper's editor wrote a column apologizing for Guthrie, 
> and stating that "Criticism of our chief executive and those around 
> him needs to be responsible and appropriate..." Then publisher Dennis 
> Mack fired Guthrie, describing it as a "private personnel matter".
> 
> Tom Gutting, city editor of the Texas City Sun was also fired by his 
> publisher for commenting on the President's behavior the day of the 
> attacks:
> 
> 
> "There was W. flying around the country like a scared child seeking 
> refuge in his mother's bed after having a nightmare....W. has behaved 
> like you would expect a first lady to."
> 
> (For what its worth, I also agree with Guthrie and Gutting and spoke 
> of Bush's disappearance in my own essay written on September 11.)
> 
> The conservative National Review dropped columnist Ann Coulter for 
> the following opinion:
> 
> 
> "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert 
> them to Christianity..."
> 
> (Do I need to mention I don't agree with Coulter? However, I defend 
> her right to blither.)
> 
> Through-out our history, more valuable information and debate has 
> been stifled by private censorship (including the chilling fear of 
> it) than by government intervention. Alexis de Tocqueville recognized 
> the contradictory nature of U.S. society, in which freedom of speech 
> so often translates into freedom to jump on the bandwagon:
> 
> 
> "In our time, the most absolute sovereigns of Europe would have no 
> idea how to prevent certain ideas, hostile to their authority, from 
> circulating silently in their countries and even in the heart of 
> their own courts. Its not at all the same in America: as long as the 
> majority is uncertain, everyone speaks; but as soon as the majority 
> has irrevocably decided, everyone shuts up, and friends and enemies 
> alike seem then to jump, with one accord, on the public bandwagon. 
> The reason is simple: there is no monarch so absolute that he can 
> hold in his hand all of society's force and vanquish all resistance, 
> to the same extent as a democratic majority with the right to make 
> and execute the laws."
> 
> As disturbing as the firing of columnists is, an incident with even 
> worse implications for U.S. democracy was the mainstream media's 
> almost total obedience to the President's request that videos of bin 
> Laden and other al Quaeda members not be televised. By all 
> traditional standards, these were highly newsworthy. Transcripts of 
> all of these were made available by the translation service of the 
> BBC. For example, on November 3, Al Jazeera broadcast a bin Laden 
> video. Bin Laden claimed that polls showed that the Islamic world 
> approved of the attacks by a wide majority; spoke of world-wide 
> demonstrations opposing U.S. action in Afghanistan; said that the 
> Islamic world has been under the "crusader yoke" for 83 years, since 
> World War I; and attacked the United Nations, which is widely 
> respected in Arab nations for its support of Palestinians, for having 
> tolerated or promoted violence against Moslems.
> 
> The bin Laden broadcast is newsworthy for several reasons. First, 
> consistent with his other utterances, he never denies involvement in 
> the U.S. attacks and goes to some length to justify them, supporting 
> the circumstantial evidence of his involvement. Secondly, even in 
> translation, his precise, rather Talmudic style of argument, with 
> constant reference to long-past historical events, gives us 
> significant insight into the personality of a once-faceless 
> adversary. Third, his reference to the U.N. introduced a potential 
> new target of Al Quaeda attacks.
> 
> I vaguely recall knowing who Osama bin Laden was before September 11: 
> a clever murderer, lurking somewhere, who was linked to the killing 
> of U.S. troops in Somalia, the African embassy bombings, and the 
> attack on the Cole. Today, I have an intense interest in him, as 
> someone who is trying to kill me personally, and that produces a 
> desire to find out everything I can.
> 
> As I never tire of telling you, I arrived at the World Trade Center 
> that morning just as the second plane hit. I saw the flames and 
> falling paper, and tiny fragments of glass rained on my head. People 
> were dying a short distance away from me; minutes later, as I was 
> running across the bridge, I saw someone jump from the south tower.
> 
> I have a "pay to play" theory of democracy. I made a partial payment 
> on September 11, and I'm willing to pay more: serve on the jury 
> trying an Al Quaeda member, even join the armed forces if they'd have 
> me. What I want in return is very simple: my seat at the table. And 
> that means the information that goes with it. There can be no 
> democracy without information; how do you decide what to do, what to 
> support or to oppose, without it?
> 
> The excuses given by the government for its request not to broadcast 
> or even print a transcript of the bin Laden video were laughable. 
> Most prominently, the government announced that the videos might 
> contain hidden messages, a technique called "steganography". Further 
> terrorist attacks might be launched as a result of the bin Laden 
> video being broadcast on CNN.
> 
> To which I say: Steganography, my ass. How stupid do President Bush, 
> Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld believe we are? There has not yet 
> been the slightest showing of any hidden messages in any bin Laden 
> video, despite obedient, silly news pieces on CNN interviewing 
> experts who could only say that it is imaginable that they could be 
> there. In these supposedly balanced pieces, where were the experts 
> saying how silly the idea was and that it was unsupported by any 
> evidence?
> 
> Multiple choice question: If you were a terrorist trying to send a 
> message to activate a U.S.-based cell, the most effective way to do 
> so would be a. a telephone call b. an anonymous email c. Placing a 
> classified ad in an obscure newspaper the cell was previously 
> instructed to monitor d. Hiding the message in a fifteen minute video 
> which you courier to Al Jazeera network and relying on them to 
> broadcast it in its entirety enough times for your U.S.-based cell to 
> see it.
> 
> Raise your hand if you think (d) is the best answer.
> 
> However, if bin Laden was strange enough to conceal messages in the 
> video or in the language he used, asking CNN and the networks not to 
> carry it was a completely ineffective way to block transmission of 
> the message, given the fact that it had already been broadcast by Al 
> Jazeera, translated and made available by the BBC, etc. Successful 
> interdiction of a hidden message still wouldn't prevent the follow up 
> phone call or email.
> 
> Note also that Rumsfeld et al. failed to run the football through the 
> goalposts. If they had taken the steganography chimera to its logical 
> conclusion, they could have asked American media to black out the war 
> entirely. Taliban mortars might be firing rhythmically in some 
> obscure Islamist Morse-like cadence. Afghan refugees in the 
> background of crowd scenes might be making hand gestures. John 
> Walker, the American Taliban member captured this week, might be 
> twitching in code.
> 
> Vague, unsupported claims about steganography don't trump my interest 
> in receiving accurate information about someone who is trying to kill 
> me.
> 
> Our government's other statement justifying censorship of the bin 
> Laden videos was more honest, though it got less play. Why give 
> airtime to Al Quaeda propaganda? This is one of those statements that 
> sounds credible, but is not. It pre-supposes two insulting things. 
> One is that there is a U.S. audience susceptible to bin Laden's 
> message (and Holmes would say that even if there were, they're 
> entitled to hear it). The other is that the rest of us don't need or 
> are not entitled to the information contained in the "propaganda". 
> Propaganda is information; it is an extremely valuable source of 
> knowledge about history, intention, and psychology. Mein Kampf is 
> freely available in the U.S., and is read much more by people 
> interested in understanding what happened than by those looking to 
> reaffirm their hatred and desire to commit genocide. Like 
> fundamentalists who condemn a book without having read it, the 
> government message is that there is information in the world so 
> volatile that we!
>   are better off being protected from it.
> 
> I wanted to be treated as an adult even before September 11, and with 
> my life in danger I feel even more strongly about it. Truth is one of 
> the cornerstones of democracy; our vote, our decision-making ability, 
> is impaired or destroyed when the government lies. The steganography 
> story was a silly lie. The truth--the government's desire that bin 
> Laden's ideas not be communicated, even though that means denying 
> important information to citizens of a democracy--shows how far we 
> have fallen from Justice Holmes' defiant and cheerful understanding 
> that we can trust ourselves.
> 
> I was astonished by the way that the broadcast media immediately 
> lined up behind the government without the mildest protest. 
> Twenty-four hour news organs, like CNN, are extremely hungry for 
> content, and had repeatedly played prior videos in their entirety, 
> with simultaneous translation. Once the government asked them to 
> stop, the newly-released video warranted only a brief mention without 
> even a clip (for fear of those hidden messages).
> 
> Why were the broadcast media so docile? In part, for the same reason 
> everyone else was. But broadcast media have a unique problem of their 
> own, which we ignore or forget in trusting them for information. They 
> are licensed and regulated by the FCC. Could the FCC legally pull a 
> license from a station which broadcast the bin Laden video in full? 
> No. Could the agency make its life quietly miserable? Absolutely. 
> Broadcast media executives never forget who holds the leash.
> 
> Ernst Renan said that nations hold together based not only on 
> collective memory but on collective forgetting as well. As a nation 
> we have completely forgotten that the regulation of broadcast media 
> began with a bloodbath about seventy years ago. The Federal Radio 
> Commission, the FCC's predecessor, targeted political programming and 
> drove it off the air to free the spectrum for commercial 
> broadcasters. Even seven decades later, the bland, mainstream, 
> nonchallenging nature of broadcast media is a product not only of 
> audience desires but of the shadow of government regulation. As the 
> ACLU's Morris Ernst said in the 1930's, "So long as the Department 
> can determine which individuals shall be endowed with larynxes, it 
> does not need additional power to determine what shall be said."
> 
> What about the print media? I was startled by the way they lined up 
> too. In the New York Times, which I count on for much (too much) of 
> my information about the world, the bin Laden video was no longer 
> front page news and no transcript was published. Again we seem to 
> have fallen a long way from the days of the Pentagon Papers and the 
> brave stand the Washington Post and the Times made against the Nixon 
> administration.
> 
> De Tocqueville provides the explanation. For most of the 1960's, the 
> press also lined up to support the Vietnam war. When the press first 
> began to examine the other side of the war--to ask questions about 
> whether the strategy made sense, the tactics were working, whether 
> civilians were being killed--they were moving in accordance with a 
> power shift that was already taking place in America. The press was 
> leading, but it was also following, like a middle manager or a 
> mid-level military officer. Significant constituencies in U.S. 
> business and politics had not waited for the Pentagon Papers to start 
> wondering if the war made any sense. In de Tocqueville's terms, 
> powerful people had already started jumping from the bandwagon. Which 
> is not to say that the Post and Times were not brave, did not behave 
> admirably, to stand up to the power (including the threat of illicit 
> action and even violence) of the Executive Branch.
> 
> After September 11, everyone was on the bandwagon. As three months 
> have passed without further Al Quaeda violence, and as we seem to be 
> winning the war, the print media are less frightened and there is a 
> slightly wider spread of opinion. Opposing voices have been heard on 
> the military tribunals, for example.
> 
> Speaking as a hawk, one who believes this is a just war, I want to 
> know where the antiwar voices were. CNN presented us with the usual 
> assortment of ex-generals analyzing air strikes, but where was Noam 
> Chomsky, saying that we shouldn't be bombing Afghanistan at all? I 
> did not see Chomsky in the Times op ed pages either, nor any other 
> guest editorial opposing the war. Certainly those voices are out 
> there; Chomsky spoke out forcefully in the small publications which 
> carry him. Why were antiwar views not represented in a mass media 
> which still likes to think of itself as the "fourth estate", affected 
> with a public interest?
> 
> Arriving at the truth in a democracy (as elsewhere) is a dialectical 
> process, where opposing views muster information in support and each 
> of us then makes our decision. Since September 11 the press has 
> consistently and miserably failed to present the other side of a 
> debate. It has not just failed to present the Al Quaeda view-- that 
> Americans deserve to be killed--though that has informational value 
> in evaluating personal risk and deciding what government responses to 
> support. The press has even failed to present the view that the 
> bombing of Afghanistan was a use of excessive force, or force applied 
> in the wrong place; or the view that law, rather than war, is the 
> answer.
> 
> My libertarian friends claim that the public responsibilities of the 
> press are a myth, that a newspaper is a business like any other, and 
> will only print what most of its audience wants to hear. But the 
> Times serves other minorities, such as those who read the bridge 
> column or the coverage of less popular sports; and diversity and even 
> adversity on the op ed pages was once thought to sell papers. No, I 
> think the true explanation of the obedient silence of the U.S. press 
> is not fear of its own readership, but is due to a disturbance 
> elsewhere in the force: a fear of offending a government and a 
> majority strongly aligned with one another, de Tocqueville's 
> "democratic majority with the right to make and execute the laws." 
> But it is precisely in times like these that we most desperately need 
> the information, as well as exposure to the variety of viewpoints 
> that convey it.
> 
> **************************************************************************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
> Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************************




From declan at well.com  Wed Dec 12 07:43:51 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:43:51 -0500
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: <3C175B8A.8E03FFBF@ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:28:42AM -0600
References: <3C175B8A.8E03FFBF@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011212104351.B21310@cluebot.com>


Choate misunderstands journalism. When writing about an appeals court 
decision, it's generally not appropriate to cite the ravings of Net.wackos
in an obscure newsgroup or mailing list a decade ago. Choate shows
again he's not merely a Net.wacko; he's a Net.loon.

Heck, I didn't even cite a Harvard Law Review article specifically
on this case -- wasn't necessary. 

It may be that Choate has said spam is trespass. But I'm not sure why
anyone could care.

-Declan


On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:28:42AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Who again has been saying for 10+ years that this sort of behaviour (incl.
> Open Relay scanning, which isn't covered here) is trespass? Check the
> archives folks...will Declan give predictive credit where credit is due?
> Probably not, that takes being honest...
> 
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49031,00.html
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Dec 12 07:44:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:44:45 -0500
Subject: : Re: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:31:21AM -0600
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213012017.00a17310@pop.useoz.com> 
Message-ID: <20011212104445.C21310@cluebot.com>


Something on which Jim Choate and I can agree. :) --Declan

On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:31:21AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Get your damn quoting right, Declan didn't right the '> >' delimited text
> as you indicate.
> 




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Dec 12 10:17:31 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:17:31 -0700
Subject: cryptographic fantasy (ca. "Stego, my ass" by WF Buckley)
Message-ID: <3C179F3B.8DC3418@lsil.com>


> The notion that Osama would use a filmed interview to
> send out recondite commands is cryptographic fantasy.
>
> William F. Buckley Jr.
> OSAMA THE INVINCIBLE
>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ucwb/20011211/cm/osama_the_invincible_1.html

>
OK piece. I usually write off Buckley as a pompous ass. I wish we would
hear more skepticism about GWB and Ashcroft and their domestic
treasonous idiocy.

As far as his assertion about the popularity of UBL in the Philippines :
sounds like a stretcher to me - Muslims are only strong in the extreme
south e.g. Mindanao. Most of the population is pretty strict Catholic.
There may be some resentment of the US but I think overall there is a
hunger for all things US : education, media, goods, travel and trade.

The older folks definitely still remember the Japanese.

Mike





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:46:12 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:46:12 +1100
Subject: Tim May; Oxymoron
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212114303.00a4a440@pop.useoz.com>


 >>the very
idea of a "libertarian socialist" is an oxymoron.
It doesn't compute.
Sure, we are "libertarian socialists" in a sense within our families or
circles of friends, in a manner of speaking, but we are not coerced by
external agents to be nice, or socialist, to our family and friends.
 >>Therein lies the reason why "libertarian socialist" is such an oxymoron."
Tim.
"but we are not coerced by
external agents to be nice, or socialist, to our family and friends."

What if the coercing external agent were operation soft drill? It cant be 
the anarchist
police can it? Under libertarian socialism (anarchism)the only external 
coercive agents
possible would be distributed,available to all and anonymous.External 
coercive agents
are a distinguishing feature of authoritarian socialism and corporate 
capitalism.Anarchy
(libertarian socialism)is the best way forward to minimize external 
coercion (violence)
Operation soft drill while it allows for inevitable violence,it should keep 
it to an absolute
minimum once it takes off.A computer in every village is as important as a 
well.This AP idea
is the justice system for the whole wired world. Crypto-anarchy needs 
justice or it will fail.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Dec 12 12:00:10 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:00:10 -0800
Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February? (fwd)
Message-ID: <7ba270f960d343ff110f77b6c9b5ea50@melontraffickers.com>


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote:

> More drama unfolds.
>
> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

[...]

Why are you propagating this nonsense? You're turning into the new Choate,
the new Hettinga, the new troll zoo-keeper. People interested in remailers
are already on those lists, and I guarantee you that they aren't
interested in that drama. It isn't anything new. If you've been around
more than a few weeks on alt.security.anon-server, you know about it. The
only "unfolding" is that it has finally bleed over onto the remops list --
and now, thanks to you, the cypherpunks list.

Ninny.




From elneil at msn.com  Wed Dec 12 11:14:15 2001
From: elneil at msn.com (L. Neil Smith)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:14:15 -0700
Subject: Area 51 Guards On Strike
Message-ID: 

But who's going to save the Earth from the scum of the universe?

  

A group of 70 security guards known as the "camo dudes" walked off 
their jobs Monday in Las Vegas and at the covert military 
installation known as Area 51, a place they said they can't talk 
about.

"Use your imagination," union President Vernell Hall said when asked 
where he worked as he and more than a dozen other striking security 
officers displayed "On Strike" signs on Haven Street near McCarran 
International Airport.

[...]

Hall said the issues include lack of adequate wages and benefits.

"There's been too much overtime since Sept. 11. Overtime on top of 
overtime," Hall said.

[...]

==========================
L. Neil Smith's latest novel _The
American Zone_ is now available at
bookstores on and off the Internet.


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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**************************************************************************




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec 12 03:30:37 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:30:37 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:37:52 -0500
From: David Shaw 
To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
Cc: Seth David Schoen 
Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange

On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0800, Seth David Schoen wrote:

> > So Phil's robot CA idea actually sounds more practical to me than
> > Brad's idea; in particular, it has better compatibility with regular
> > PGP encryption -- and it seems that it may be more robust in some
> > ways.  The robot CA is intuitive and fairly secure if you don't expect
> > active MITM attacks.
>
> The Board of Directors of EFF met today in San Francisco, and I made a
> presentation about this, in the presence of Brad Templeton and others.
> One of the conclusions was that EFF's role in implementing something
> like this is still not defined clearly enough, and we don't know what
> we could most usefully do.
>
> For example, some people like the idea of standardizing protocols
> through the IETF; others prefer a completely independent development
> of a spec (possibly with advance commitments or at least expressions
> of interest from vendors), and then submission to standards bodies
> after the technical work is more of a fait accompli.  There is some
> disagreement about who exactly should write which code, for what
> platform, and what effect it would have for different people (e.g.
> famous cryptographers, civil liberties organizations, well-known
> scientists or network engineers) to endorse various approaches in
> various places.
>
> We want to figure out more about what EFF can best do to make this
> happen.  Brad Templeton is planning to write to Phil Zimmermann, and I
> plan to write to Phil Karn and some other people.

After the Zimmermann article appeared, I emailed him and we spoke on
the phone for a few hours about the possibilities here.  He's an
interesting guy.  We discussed some concerns I had with the robot CA
concept as without client support, or a special robot keyserver along
with (or part of) the robot CA, there are some problems.  All in all,
I like his ideas for the robot CA (he had some ideas to extend this to
a robot "designated revoker" as well as a few other useful things).

> Brad was concerned that the robot CA is a single point of failure and
> an easy target for attacks (DOS, subpoena, physical intrusions); it
> _does_ hold some secret and trusted information (its own private
> signing key) and also has a uniquely valuable key which can be
> compromised -- an event which would tend to undermine the entire
> scheme.  He added that both schemes are equally secure against passive
> wiretapping, and the scheme he outlined can survive even if the
> organizations which originally supported it go away.

One possible way to address some of Brad's concerns with Phil
Zimmermann's scheme is to create a meta-key, stored offline, with some
rigidly followed procedure for its use (this should be analogous to a
non-robot CA master key handling).  Use this key to sign a number of
additional keys[1] for each robot CA.  This gives you a few
improvements - one, you have more than one robot CA, all equally
valid, so there is no longer a single point of failure.  A reasonable
optimization here would be for each robot to look for a signature from
a different robot and refuse to sign.  In the case of robot compromise
(legal or illegal), the robot's key can be revoked.  This may hurt the
people who had their keys signed by that particular robot, but does
not affect the rest.  This revision also allows the scheme to survive
if some of the robots go away - as long as the keeper of the master
key does not go away.

For me, the piece of the "get everyone using encryption" project that
Brad really hit on the head is the need for absolutely zero UI.

To do this well in the client, we're really going to need some amount
of vendor buy-in.  Without zero (or pretty darn close to zero) UI, we
can poke around with simplifying key management for years without
accomplishing much because of the "If I have to do anything to use it,
then I won't use it" mindset.  I don't really like doing the
encryption in the MTA as that puts the responsibility on a machine in
the ISP.  This machine is likely to be a far richer prize to an
attacker than a home box, as well as being far more snoopable on via
legal or illegal means.

> I want to bifurcate the issue and ask everyone here:
>
> (1) What's the best design for an "informal key exchange" scheme in
> which active MITM attacks may be permitted, but privacy against
> passive wiretapping (as well as trivial impersonation attacks) is
> maintained?  How can this be implemented with the smaller amount of
> user interface, while maintaining the largest amount of compatibility
> in both directions with existing e-mail privacy systems for
> sophisticated users?

The easiest thing to do would be a email header that contains key
information.  Loads of people do this already ("X-My-PGP-Key: ..." and
similar).  If we could standardize a format, then smart clients could
use it to automatically fetch the key.  I'd suggest some sort of URL,
for maximum flexibility.  For bandwidth and messiness reasons, I don't
really like the S/MIME feature of sending the key around all the time.

Using a new email header for this has the nice feature of not breaking
any of the current email infrastructure - any non-capable clients will
just ignore it.

> (2) What's the best way to get such a system designed and deployed to
> the general public?  How can an organization like EFF best help
> accomplish this?  Whose help do we need?

Microsoft (like it or not, they make one of the most widely used MUAs
on the planet).  AOL/Netscape.  And the developers of as many mailers
we can get to listen.  If this only happens in the open-source world,
then we're not really solving the problem.

Way back when, Netscape did a cute thing to push https: it made a big
deal of the security icons on the browser, and made sure that you knew
you did not have an encrypted connection when you submitted a form.
I'd love to see mailers scold the user this way if they tried to send
an unencrypted email.

I favor using OpenPGP as the underlying protocol for all of this as
there is wide understanding of OpenPGP and lots of code available
under various licenses, including the GPL.  Using OpenPGP also allows
"power users" to use the full OpenPGP trust model if they choose to
without affecting the people using the simplified model.

I am very interested in working on these problems with anyone else who
would like to join me.

David

[1] This could also be OpenPGP-style signing subkeys, but for a
    handful of reasons (the keyservers not handling keys like that
    very well for starters) it may better to use other keys.

-- 
   David Shaw  |  dshaw at jabberwocky.com  |  WWW http://www.jabberwocky.com/
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
   "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX.
      We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 17:49:04 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:49:04 +1100
Subject: Behold a pale horsepersyn
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212122003.00a0c280@pop.useoz.com>


Not only will operation soft drill water your plants and walk your dogs it 
now kills all known horsemen of the infopocalypse.
While it will be portrayed as the grim reaper,great satan and everything 
else under a rock,a way must be found to neutralize the 'freak out the 
soccer moms' campaigns that could be coming our way soon.You know the ones...
Crypto pedophiles! crypto terrorists! crypto narcotraffickers! and crypto 
money launderers for them all.
Why not turn crypto assassins loose on the above?
It takes a thief to catch a thief and the authorities are losing all these 
battles.(when they're battling and not joining in)
So,how to turn a negative horseman,crypto assassins,into the ultimate 
killer app? Simple,stop sneaking around and go
"open source" Its a boon.Not doom.A blessing,not the end of the world as we 
know it.If youse can sell yourselves on the
comedy that your 'punks' and 'anarchists' you have great futures in 
advertising.Whats in it for moi? ecash,new markets,fame,70 virgins,hells 
bells,whateveryoufugginwant.Cheney,the evil one,is in the bunker now 
planning nuclear war with china as the ultimate last resort so we havent 
got all day.Give us your answer here!
The media can sniff out the candidates quite 
nicely,condit,oj,USAma,etc.Once we break the ice and the network affect 
kicks in it'll be background before you know it.Operation soft drill,you 
know it makes sense.




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec 12 04:36:14 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:36:14 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February? (fwd)
Message-ID: 



More drama unfolds.

-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:47:31 -0500
From: Secure Beer 
Reply-To: remops at lexx.shinn.net
To: remailer-operators at anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February?

Last night I had my life threatened.

The death threat was posted here and on the remops list.
The message in question is 
 from the APA-S  thread
Re: A comparison of Frog-Admin, the Script-Kiddie, Anonymous
Trolls and other plagues of the privacy community.

The author of the death threat posted anonymously and used
the nick Sade. But the writing style and especially the last
few lines reveal that it was Frog-Admin who threatened my life.

"Thank you, Champerty, for letting me experiencing the same
kind of double ecstasy: first when I was crucifiing your ass
and your friends', and now when you make me remember those
delicious moments."

That is part2 of a 2-part threat. He chooses to write part1
in his mother tongue, perhaps not knowing that I am bilingual.
In French, he quotes from Marquis de Sade describing how
Saint-Fond anally rapes Juliette and, while raping her,
orders her head sliced off so that the clenching of her
muscles at the moment of her decapitation might intensify
his sexual pleasure.

Champerty is a gender-neutral pseudonym. And although I am
male I can't help wondering whether Frog-Admin thought he
was threatening a woman when he decided to include that
description of the sexual torture and murder of an 18 year
old woman.

Male or female. It's a death threat. Im my country it's
criminal. It's one of the worse things he's done. And, as
we are beginning to realize, he has done a lot of sleazy,
under-handed things.

Where did this rage come from, you might ask? In addition
to an ego already on steroids, Frog-Admin was exposéd
recently by an anonymous poster as being the individual
responsible for much of the floods and trolling in APA-S
over the past two years. Frog-Admin assumed that this
anonymous poster must have been his arch rival from
1998-2000: Champerty. This is a knee-jerk reaction for him.
You see, he can't get his head around the idea that there
is more than one person who thinks he is wrong.

Embarrassed and humiliated by the exposé he has announced
that he will be closing down his remailer tomorrow (Wed
Dec 12 2001) .

He has also had a bit of a temper tantrum as the deluge of
anti-Champerty anti-Boschloo and pro-Frog messages
demonstrates. As he explains himself in a recent message
"You didn't expect me to remain silent did you?"

He has promised to be back from his vacation in February
2002 and intends to put his remailer back online.

What do remailer users think about Frog-Admin now? Is this
the type of remailer operator that you want in your
remailer network?

And operators? I ask you to please, for once, take a public
stand for or against whether Frog-Admin will be welcomed
back in February after the shit he has pulled over the
years and especially in recent days.

Death threats cannot be dismissed as merely "bad form".
Flooding APA-S, discrediting and silencing critics,
attacking ISPs, scapegoating innocents like TB and Orange
Admin. These things should not be tolerated simply because
they don't directly affect YOUR individual remailer.

Farout Admin has declared himself supportive of Frog
Admin and hopes he returns in February.

What about the rest of the operators and stats maintainers?
'Time to take a stand.

Secure Beer
(formerly Champerty)
almostt AT beer DOT com


Beer Mail, brought to you by your friends at beer.com.

_______________________________________________
Remops mailing list
Remops at lexx.shinn.net
http://lexx.shinn.net/mailman/listinfo/remops




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec 12 04:36:55 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:36:55 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: Federal agents raid warez groups (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:58:47 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Federal agents raid warez groups


>From: "Bill Sodeman" 
>To: 
>
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/11/technology/11CND-PIRACY.html?pagewante
>d=print
>
>December 11, 2001
>In 27 Cities, U.S. Carries Out Raids in Software Piracy Case
>By DAVID STOUT
>
>WASHINGTON, Dec. 11 - Federal agents carried out dozens of raids today
>against a far-flung network suspected of pirating billions of dollars
>worth of computer software - ranging from operating systems to the
>latest music videos and movies - over the Internet.
>
>Agents seized computers and hard drives in at least 27 cities in 21
>states in raids on businesses, university computer centers, Internet
>service providers and many residences. Foreign law enforcement people
>staged about 20 similar raids in Australia, Britain, Finland and Norway.
>
>Treasury and Commerce department officials said more raids will be
>conducted in the weeks ahead. No arrests were made in the United States,
>partly because today's operations were aimed at gathering evidence. Some
>of the people implicated, aware that they could face charges of
>conspiracy or theft of intellectual property, are already cooperating
>with the authorities, department officials said.
>
>The operation that culminated in today's raids, after a 15-month
>inquiry, is part of "the largest and most extensive investigation of its
>kind," Customs Commissioner Robert C. Bonner said.
>
>
>
>Officials said offenders could face up to three years in prison, upon
>conviction, and depending on their willingness to cooperate. By midday,
>the authorities said, more than 60 people in the United States had been
>identified as being involved in the pirating operation. Several suspects
>have already been charged overseas.
>
>The target of the raids was the "Warez" group, a loosely affiliated
>network of software-piracy gangs that duplicate and reproduce
>copyrighted software over the Internet. Of special interest today was a
>Warez unit known as "DrinkOrDie," probably the oldest and best known in
>the Warez network, officials said, adding that DrinkOrDie members take
>special pride in having cracked and pirated the Windows 95 operating
>system three days before its release to the public.
>
>Members of Warez includes corporate executives, computer-network
>administrators and students at major universities, government workers
>and employees of technology and computer firms, the Customs Service said
>today. The agency said the piracy ring is aided by insiders in stealing
>the software and that the ring relies on elaborate computer-security
>devices to minimize risk of detection.
>
>Raids were carried out today at the University of California at Los
>Angeles, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Purdue University,
>Duke University and the University of Oregon, officials said. They said
>the universities themselves, like the various companies raided today,
>were not involved in the wrongdoing by their employees and were
>cooperating in the inquiry.
>
>Cities where raids were staged included New York, Washington, Houston,
>Indianapolis, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Atlanta and
>Chicago, the government said.
>
>==========================
>
>Bill Sodeman
>bill at sodeman.com / http://bill.sodeman.com
>
>1-512-845-0119

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Dec 12 12:50:57 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:50:57 -0700
Subject: phantoms and rhetoric ( was : Re: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and Self-Censorship )
Message-ID: <3C17C331.9943F4D0@lsil.com>


Nomen Nescio  wrote :
>Declan McCullagh writes:
>> I always enjoy Jonathan's essays, and this one is no exception. He
>> properly points out the disturbing analogy that Attorney General
>> Ashcroft seems to make (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02900.html)
>> between criticism and treason.
>
>What Ashcroft actually said, from the URL above, was:
>
>> We need honest, reasoned debate; not fearmongering. To those who
>> pit Americans against immigrants, and citizens against non-citizens;
>> to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty;

>> my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists - for they erode

>> our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to
>> America's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They encourage
>> people of good will to remain silent in the face of evil.
>
>The simple fact is that Ashcroft spoke the truth.  Such criticisms
>do erode national unity and diminish resolve.  In fact, most critics
>would fully agree with these goals.  Unity and resolve on a national
>level scare civil libertarians.  A unified nation is a rash nation.
>Democracies should be thoughtful, their actions carefully considered
>and taken only after due deliberation.  Having a thousand voices urging

>different courses is far safer than a single voice which all obey.
>
>Some claim that behind the truth of Ashcroft's words is a veiled
> threat.
>Aiding national enemies is indeed one of the definitions of treason.
>Yet in the larger sense such a reading is plainly absurd.  No Attorney
>General would ever attempt to make the case that criticising government

>policy is treasonous and should be forbidden.  Hard as it may be for
>the present audience, blinded by their ideology, to see the real world
>for what it is, any such attempt would be political suicide.
>
>Given this reality, there is clearly no real threat in Ashcroft's
>statement.  Instead the critics are intentionally misreading him in
>order to accomplish exactly those goals he mentions: to sow disunity
>and weaken resolve.  It is nothing more than a rhetorical trick.
>
>Let us hold to the truth.  Ashcroft is right in his characterization of

>his critics' goals, and his critics are right to try to achieve those
>goals.  It is misguided to attack Ashcroft by making the false claim
>that he views criticism as treason.  Instead, critics should attack his

>position that national unity and resolve must be preserved.  This would

>be a substantive debate which would enlighten the American public and
>raise awareness of important issues.  Unfortunately the critics have
>descended into politically motivated mud-slinging and have deprived
>Americans of a valuable opportunity.
>
The recent advances in law enforcement made by a frightened ( for their
asses and their careers ) Congress are not phantoms of lost liberty :
substantial changes have been made. Ashcroft expresses his opinion that
questioning the civil liberties implications of those policy changes is
an attempt to "erode our national unity and diminish our resolve" as if
it is a truth. He mischaracterizes the goals of his critics so that he
can associate them with an extremely unpopular position. The technique
being employed by John Ashcroft is to fallaciously polarize the
discussion as one of Patriotism vs. Treason, Good vs. Evil with the
intent of suppressing the speech of anyone who might be an impediment to

his agenda. Ashcroft's approach smacks of the techniques used by the
late and not-at-all-great may he rest screaming forever in flames
Senator Joseph McCarthy. That is Ashcroft's rhetorical trick.

Nomen's trick is to mischaracterize what people object to in what
Ashcroft has said. I don't for a minute think that there is, today at
least, even a veiled threat that those who openly criticize Bush and
Ashcroft are likely to be accused of treason. Nomen has set up an easily

torched strawman which he uses to say see, Ashcroft's critics are
clearly wrong, so they're probably wrong about the administration.

I'm not buying Ashcroft's tricks or Nomen's. I'll stick with the simple
interpretation of the motivations and goals of those who question the
actions of the Bush administration : some people see those actions of
the Bush administration and John Ashcroft as Constitutionally
questionable and their goal is to debate the issues and protect, in so
far as it is possible given the state of the populace, everyone's
liberties from enemies both foreign and domestic. Unity and resolve
don't enter into it.

Sometimes I think that people feel that because shameful or horrific
events in our history happened so very long ago and we seem to have
survived them that we must have some type of increasing immunity
conferred upon us by the passing of time. I'm afraid that quite the
opposite is true, that our immunity diminishes with time leaving us open

to reinfection by the ideological descendents of the perpetrators of
earlier outrages.

Can an Attorney General be censured? Drawn and quartered?

Mike

http://www.webcorp.com/mccarthy/mccarthypage.htm





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 19:17:07 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:17:07 +1100
Subject: The fucking essay
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212133250.00a0fab0@pop.useoz.com>


"...the fucking essay. It's flawed in a variety of ways. It's understanding 
of human psychology (which it purports to >manipulate in realistic ways - 
not) is so flawed as to make it very tedious.

Speaking of tedious,Im on record with total opposition to freud being used 
for anything other than birdcage liner.I still havent read that part of AP 
with any degree of attention.If thats what your referring to re.human 
psychology then I heartily agree.Freud is extremely tedious.Where jim 
appeals to
the angels of our better nature is probably also flawed as a realistic 
appeal to human psychology.(last page 10)
Sandys on record with at least one flaw on the confirmation of prediction 
end.I wish the police would take note and return my latitude.Id like to 
talk to jim about updating and streamlining the essay but its a bit 
tricky.The powers that be feel threatened by jims ideas.I doubt very much 
they would find anything threatening at your wing nut web site.

 >>Its about making very credible threats to limit violence.Paradoxical but 
effective.

 > Not paradoxical, hypocritical. And no, it doesn't limit anything (unless 
there are is so much money being made killing wives, husbands, and 
competitors there are no more hit men left).

How is operation soft drill hypocritical? Jim might argue with that too but 
cant,of course.10 years for a flawed,tedious essay.Mmm.
It does'nt limit anything that is not already limited.Like knowing where 
your target is,or even who they are.Numbskull nomen knows that.The limits 
come from the 'thermostat' effect,mentioned in the essay.Its a self 
limiting state of affairs that does'nt even require crypto.I think a 
misconception comes in when hitmen get a mention.A 'hitman' could be a 
child or an elderly butler.Almost anyone is capable of killing.Sure pros 
would be attracted,make a pile,spend it,become targets and so on.Self 
limiting see? Theres a mass levelling of wealth and power as no sane person 
wants to be anything but anonymous.There will be those who think they're so 
lovable they wont attract a juicy pool and we'll always have 
celebrities,they just wont be around so long,maybe.

 >It simply provides a mechanism for the 1st party to >anonymously hire the 
3rd party to kill >>the 2nd party.

Well dont we have that now,(the internet) A lot of what Im talking about is 
there in front of your face.The trains left the station.Assasination 
politics is on the news in occupied palestine and 'ghan and its got doctors 
all over your scumbag ratshit,craphole rogue error state of amerdikkka 
wearing bulletproof vests.With OSD even anonymity isnt required,simply 
enough sensible people to see the benefits of distributed justice by 
consensus (not mob rule at all) and take firm committed civil disobedient 
direct action.A nuremburg website for all the little eichmanns that want to 
slice away our inalienable human and civil rights like salami. FUCK 
THAT,FUCK THEM and FUCK YOU,you loopy spamming spacecase.




From always_ready2 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 12 14:32:02 2001
From: always_ready2 at hotmail.com (ECA)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:32:02
Subject: Attention Homeowners: Don't Refinance Yet !!!
Message-ID: <200112121934.NAA18893@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jmcgone at cfl.rr.com  Wed Dec 12 11:39:21 2001
From: jmcgone at cfl.rr.com (Jim McGone)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:39:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Last Minute Holiday Shopping
Message-ID: <200112121939.fBCJdKO10171@smtp-server1.tampabay.rr.com>



                                                                        e Seine Trawler
                                                            e-Mail Marketing / Translation
                               P.O Box 2773, New Smyrna Beach FL 32170-2773  - fish at ucnsb.net


RE: Last minute Holiday Shopping


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e-Seine Trawler
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Last Minute Holiday Special:   2,306 CPA's  or  2,019 Travel Agents - $60.   (pulled 12/09/




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 15:13:53 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:13:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

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From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 15:27:06 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:27:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200112122146.QAA06128@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> I don't know, how about traffic analysis?

Yes, but see my previous post.

> Exploiting (publicly) undisclosed holes in the remailer software?

Same problem as traffic analysis if you are talking about compromising the
remailer. Doesn't work after the fact. (Plus, the risk of detection is
certainly non-zero.)

If you're talking about exploiting flaws in the remailer message
encryption or in the mix-net protocol, that would work, but also would
rely upon having remailer traffic be intercepted and collected for later
analysis.

> Good old-fashioned deception isn't exactly rocket science, either. How about
> suckering people into routing traffic through an ever-increasing number of
> corrupt nodes, either by: 1) running them covertly 2) buying off "trusted

Stats manipulation has been discussed before. (LEAs run remailers, and
then ensure that their remailers are at the top of the stats pages, either
by falsifying stats or causing legitimate remailers to sink lower on the
stats then LEA remailers.)

Another half-decent attack if planned in advance.

> pillars of the crypto community" and trading on their reputation
> capital? A sobering thought.

I'm not skeptical as to how effective that would be. Look at all the times
that Phil Zimmermann has been accused of being in bed with the Government.
I'm not sure there are any "trusted pillars of the crypto community".

> Or how about this one: enticing people interested in developing
> cryptography into an closed system based in Canada (international, so
> using full-blown Echelon technology against it isn't a problem)

Except for the pesky fact that the NSA can't spy on US citizens, even if
they're in Canada. (Exceptions can be made, but the hoops become higher
and more numerous than a simple FBI investigation.)

> offering "secure" messaging, file storage, sharing and transmission
> etc. while promising them the moon about being a no-compromise
> information-haven phuck-the-state all-your-eggs-in-one -basket crypto
> system?
>
> Oh wait, it's called CryptoHeaven. Nevermind.

Yes, well. My thoughts on CryptoHeaven are already on the record on this
list.

> Not that I'm claiming the first thing about them--it's just that if I were
> trying to come up with a way to gather information on people interested in
> developing privacy and cryptography technology, setting up a compromised
> CryptoHeaven-like system on behalf of the United States Government would be
> IDEAL. Or at the very least,inserting some bad actors into the system to root
> up the vulnerabilities couldn't hurt. Not to mention cultivating "trusted
> insider" informants.

Smells like entrapment, though.


-MW-




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Wed Dec 12 15:41:33 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:41:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled
Message-ID: <200112122341.fBCNfXV10747@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Gosh - doesn't anyone like the United States anymore?  Give the fuckers
$3 billion a year in aid, and they elect a war criminal as their Prime
Minister and pull shit like this.

-----

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The chairman of the militant Jewish Defense League and
a follower have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a Los
Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman, federal
authorities said today. Irv Rubin, 56, and a member of the group, Earl
Krugel, 59, both of Los Angeles, were arrested last night after the last
component of the bomb -- explosive powder -- was delivered to Krugel's
home, U.S. Attorney John S. Gordon said. Authorities said the two planned
to bomb the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City and the office of freshman
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:13:45 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:13:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: <3C176BF8.CE587BBE@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Gee - don't you think that if you're going to use hifalutin terms like
> 
> "ad hominem" and "ad nauseam," you ought to learn how they're spelled?
> 
> Not knowing how they are spelled sorta makes people think you might not
> know what they mean...

If your only bitch is spelling then the argument must be pretty sound.

(Oh yeah, bitching about the spelling instead of the argument is an ad
hominim as well)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:22:04 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:22:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and  Self-Censorship in Wartime
In-Reply-To: <20011212103938.A21310@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> * Is it appropriate to use the powerful word "censorship" to describe
> what happened when the National Review dropped Ann Coulter?

No, she was using THEIR property and services.

> Review has an implicit contract with their writers that says something
> like
> our-publication-has-a-distinct-point-of-view-and-we-don't-want-to-run-
> stuff-far-outside-of-it. In the absence of evidence to the contrary,
> it's reasonable to assume that she understood this implicit agreement
> when she signed up.

I hope you mean explicit, otherwise you ain't got a leg to stand on -
zero 'meeting of minds'.

> this dispute weakens the term for when it's really needed -- to
> describe government action that puts people in prison cells.

Censorship is not strictly limited to government...

Censor -

Official who examines anything to be read, heard, or viewed, in order to
suppress some objectionable feature on moral, political, or military
grounds.

Note it does NOT require government membership to be an official.

> * Of course it's disturbing when government officials tell Americans
> to self-censor. 

Everybody self-sensors, all day, every day. Nothing wrong with it since
the individual is the ONLY agent with the authority to decide
applicability or acceptability.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:24:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:24:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: <20011212104351.B21310@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Choate misunderstands journalism. 

Not at all, journalism is the act of interacting with others about their
actions and beliefs in the hope that you can spin doctor the reality into
something people will find enteraining and hence pay money for.

It's a great job for those who can't teach.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 16:29:08 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:29:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Remailers, N-Grams, and Google
In-Reply-To: <200112102206.RAA06535@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> What are N-Grams?
>
> N-Gram Analysis is a a method patented by the NSA to compare the
> semantic of two texts or audio or video data files. The algorithm is
> pretty simple, all you have to do, is take a sliding window of length
> N and move it over the text, and remember, how often which
> text-fragment of length N occured in the text. This implementation of
> the N-Gram Method is a pretty simple ANSI-C-Program, I wrote to
> distract me from my end-of-semester exams. It would be nice, if you
> send me patches, comments or so to rhoehndo at imn.htwk-leipzig.de. I
> will do some more to this code as soon as I finished my exams.

Here's a thought.

Given a comprehensive collection of public Internet communication,
including Usenet, mailing list traffic, weblog entries, etc, and an
advanced semantic analysis algorithm, it should be fairly trival to take
the n-gram (or other semantic signature) of a remailed message, and search
a database of these signatures for possible matches.

Google's got the raw material, and surely the NSA does as well. (If the
FBI hadn't been collecting this information all along, would they even
need to ask a court to get the NSA to share it with them? I'm talking
about purely public info -- nothing that Google wouldn't have.)

A program could be written to run over time, generating n-grams which
would then be stored in the database alongside the original text. The
program should be smart enough to ignore mail headers, footers, etc., but
none of this would be difficult given a good semantic analysis algo.
(N-grams appear to be less effective on small documents, though if two
documents were known to be authored by the same person, they should be
able to be treated as one.) When an anonymous text's n-gram would be
entered into the search engine, the database would return all documents
with similar n-grams. This should reveal the likely identity of the author
in a large number of cases. *Then* you could Magic Lantern him or
whatever.

What's the current state of public research in this area? Does anything
exist that would be useful for practical application at this point? (I'm
not sure how reliable n-grams would be on this kind of scale, and I
haven't been able to find much via Google that really answers that.)

I don't think I am saying anything new here. I'm bringing this because it
seems like the solution to defeating remailers that involves the least
legal hassle, can be applied retroactively, does not involve an
unreasonable amount of computing power or deployed equipment, and has
a decent chance of success for a good number of messages. (It won't work
if the LEA doesn't have the plain text message that was sent through the
remailer, or if the message was simply a binary file, news report, or
something else not of the sender's own words, but it would work on
messages exchanged discussing plots, drug deals, threats, kiddie-porn
solicitation, naughty fantasies on alt.personals.bondage, etc.

And then there's the added bonus of still working, even if the things Tim
says are needed exist (much greater number of remailers, more traffic,
etc.) and working on *any* form of anonymous communication, including
missives deposited in postal drop boxes (assuming tomorrow's unibombers
post to Usenet.)

There could also be a commercial or individual demand for such a system.
Suppose I wanted to read everything that Eric Hughes has written and
published publicly online over the past 20 years. How would I go about
such a search? Searching by name or email address will miss quite a lot.
If Google had n-gram searching, and a "submit your text sample for
n-gramification" cgi, I'd have more luck. Anyone at Google want to take me
up on this?

I'm sure there's other more practical uses that I'm missing as well.


-Arnold




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:36:44 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:36:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200112122146.QAA06128@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> Underestimating your adversary never did anyone a bit of good.

Sure it does, it helps the ones who are underestimated.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 21:36:44 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:36:44 +1100
Subject: : 100 million responsibilities (Re: AP Al quim) 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212162509.00a49810@pop.useoz.com>


At 06:27 AM 12/12/01 +1100, mattd wrote: >.>..regarding Assassination 
Politics: > > Just keep in mind that AP is a >joke among knowledgeable > > 
technologists for >its unworkability, but a >wonderful joke > > on those 
who believe it's anything more than a taunt. > >Total bullshit again. Yes, 
but the reason it's bullshit is that shooting >messengers does no good. It 
leaves intact the originators of the message, >all hundred- million of 
them. Tomorrow, the hundred million will be >stumbling over each other 
trying to empower new messengers to replace those >fallen. Bingo. This is 
why the WTC takedown was such excellent feedback.

The above is baba rum rasins entire post.WTF my names on top for Im fucked 
if I know.Its all crap.Feedback for shitheels.
Im not getting any feedback on operation soft drill so Ill pack it in next 
year and let nature take its course.Leave my name out of it.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Wed Dec 12 13:46:11 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:46:11 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <200112122146.QAA06128@mail.lokmail.net>

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From reinhold at world.std.com  Wed Dec 12 13:47:56 2001
From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:47:56 -0500
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: <0GO6007W7Z3EYY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: 
  
  <0GO6007W7Z3EYY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>
Message-ID: 


You make a good argument for dropping the non_U.S. only restriction. 
The risk may be worth the benefits of kernel integration.  That could 
result in wider corporate use of IPSec to fight real security threats 
and make it much more difficult, politically, to suppress.

My point was just that one cannot rely on the U.S. courts striking 
down any future crypto regulations. They should and I hope they 
would, but it not a sure thing. The most recent ruling is not 
favorable. I also wouldn't underestimate the U.S. government's 
ability to stifle crypto development if they choose to do so and get 
a green light from the courts.  Note today's Warez crackdown.

Maybe there is some compromise possible where a core crypto library 
is kept free of U.S. contributions?

Arnold Reinhold


At 10:27 AM -0800 12/11/01, Dima Holodovich wrote:
>On Tuesday 11 December 2001 06:29 am, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:
>>
>> Having a body of open source crypto software that is not entangled by
>> any U.S. input is not a foolish idea.
>
>Not when the body of software is critical for Linux and the
>widespread use of IPSec.  If you want widespread adoption
>of IPSec in Linux, it needs to be in Linus' kernel.  In order
>for this to happen, it is necessary for Linus and other people
>physically located in the United States need to be able to
>to contribute.  Once Freeswan is in Linus' kernel, it will
>receive greater contribution and testing from both *inside*
>AND *outside* the United States.
>
>IMO:  The current Freeswan policy *encourages* law makers to
>change the laws.  Many companies have an invested interest
>in Linux.  Those companies are willing to spend lots of
>money on lawyers to protect Linux.  If IPSec is not part of
>Linux and is not in widespread Linux use, those companies
>will not have the need to defend us.  We'll have kept crypto
>out of the hands of the people all on our own -- without
>the government's help.
>
>Do you really think that great programs like GNU Privacy
>Guard are going to magically disappear if the US government
>changes their regulations?  Can they magically be erased
>from the net, just because some US contributions were
>made?
>
>- Dima
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>The Cryptography Mailing List
>Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to 
>majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:51:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:51:16 -0600
Subject: The Dallas Morning News: Texas/Southwest - FBI: Uncorroborated threat received against Texas schools
Message-ID: <3C17DF64.ECB1C1B1@ssz.com>


Heads up folks!!!!

http://www.dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/ap/stories/AP_STATE_0069.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From faustine at lokmail.net  Wed Dec 12 13:54:27 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:54:27 -0500
Subject: FYI: "What the Heck is OPSEC?"
Message-ID: <200112122154.QAA10666@mail.lokmail.net>

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From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Wed Dec 12 17:31:01 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:31:01 -0700
Subject: Sameer on the History of Remailers
Message-ID: 


http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2/remailers/

... what that CNN article wanted to say.




From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Wed Dec 12 15:39:17 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:40:17 -0459
Subject: This Week's Deals!
Message-ID: <200112130111.fBD1BlJW021752@ak47.algebra.com>

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From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 12 11:34:18 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 12 Dec 2001 19:34:18 +0000
Subject: FW: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
In-Reply-To: "Lucky Green"'s message of "Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:53:19
  -0800"
References: <00da01c181ff$c0e4d3b0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>
Message-ID: 


"Lucky Green"  writes:

> FreeS/WAN occupies a position very rarely found in efficient markets,
> such as open source software. While the position is rarely encountered,
> it can nonetheless exist: I believe that FreeS/WAN is a natural
> monopoly.


My impression from the show of hand at the HAL2001 FreeS/WAN session
was that OpenBSD's IPSEC was being used rather more than FreeS/WAN.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
    
    don't anthropomorphize computers; they don't like it.




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 19:47:48 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:47:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200112130146.UAA12269@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> Back to remailers: this might have a boneheadedly obvious answer, but
> is there a role for non-publicized privately-run remailer networks to
> serve as a "privacy buffer" before putting messages thorugh the public
> remailer system?
>
> For example, if I had the hardware, software, phone lines, internet
> connections and time to run multiple autonomous mixmaster remailers
> out of my basement to route my own messages (and dummy traffic) around
> before funneling them to a public remailer, would there be any way to
> keep all-but-the-last box entirely shut off from view? Could you
> achieve this degree of anonymity from running Reliable? What would it
> take to keep a private remailer network truly private?

Perhaps I'm unclear on what you are proposing... but if this is really a
private system, as soon as the mail exits, it's obvious that it came from
you, no matter how much you mixed it around in your basement. So what's
the point?

> And what about the idea of surreptitiously installing this kind of
> private remailer network via piggybacking a stripped-down
> highly-anonymous version of remailer software onto other people's
> badly-maintained networks--free POP accounts to hold the traffic,
> maybe along with some sort of remote administration tool for
> maintenance. A tiny trickle of traffic has all the obvious problems,
> but is it possible that a "single user" scheme like this might be
> sufficiently under the radar to go completely unnoticed? Little
> invisible pinprick remailers that pop up all over the place, and
> dissappear almost as fast as they spring up. Mosquito Remailers? Just
> a thought.

It's been discussed here before. Ian Goldberg and others talked about
disposable exit hops, Steve Schear on temporary remailers, other people on
inexpensive, auto-configuring "remailer on a chip" designs that could be
surreptitiously introduced to random networks...

> p.s...and yes, I'm off to "Go Read the Archives"TM.

Unfortunately, you'll find that these ideas aren't new, and the answers to
their problems aren't easy.


-MW-




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 19:49:37 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:49:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <787929b189d997e243a0edbaecbeebd3@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> Do you know how many messages are going through the remailer network
> now?  How many do you think the average remailer processes in a day?

I'm assuming 5-10K/day. I don't know what Tim and others discussed at the
meeting that Tim references. Ask him.

> Now, how many do you think a remailer ought to be handling in order for
> there to be enough traffic for people to feel safe?

I'm unsure. Part of the problem is that I really don't know how many
people are sending messages to the remailer network each day. I suspect
the number is low.


-MW-




From tbr at bora.com  Wed Dec 12 20:00:55 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:00:55 -0800
Subject: JDL topples WTC
Message-ID: <3C1827F7.B510CDE1@bora.com>


At 09:45 PM 12/12/01 -0600, Jon Beets wrote:
>What would you do if a foreign government occupied
>your country?

Ask the French Resistance or Osama :-)

>Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled
>> LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The chairman of the militant Jewish Defense
League and
>> a follower have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a
Los
>> Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman,
federal

They have now provided *excellent* evidence for the conspiracy nuts
who suspect that Mossad downed the WTC.




From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Dec 12 11:20:24 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:20:24 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship 
Message-ID: <9847a6c7f7cfe6247bba76d5cbd77b42@dizum.com>


Declan McCullagh writes:
> I always enjoy Jonathan's essays, and this one is no exception. He
> properly points out the disturbing analogy that Attorney General
> Ashcroft seems to make (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02900.html)
> between criticism and treason.

What Ashcroft actually said, from the URL above, was:

> We need honest, reasoned debate; not fearmongering. To those who
> pit Americans against immigrants, and citizens against non-citizens;
> to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty;
> my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists - for they erode
> our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to
> America's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They encourage people
> of good will to remain silent in the face of evil.

The simple fact is that Ashcroft spoke the truth.  Such criticisms
do erode national unity and diminish resolve.  In fact, most critics
would fully agree with these goals.  Unity and resolve on a national
level scare civil libertarians.  A unified nation is a rash nation.
Democracies should be thoughtful, their actions carefully considered
and taken only after due deliberation.  Having a thousand voices urging
different courses is far safer than a single voice which all obey.

Some claim that behind the truth of Ashcroft's words is a veiled threat.
Aiding national enemies is indeed one of the definitions of treason.
Yet in the larger sense such a reading is plainly absurd.  No Attorney
General would ever attempt to make the case that criticising government
policy is treasonous and should be forbidden.  Hard as it may be for
the present audience, blinded by their ideology, to see the real world
for what it is, any such attempt would be political suicide.

Given this reality, there is clearly no real threat in Ashcroft's
statement.  Instead the critics are intentionally misreading him in
order to accomplish exactly those goals he mentions: to sow disunity
and weaken resolve.  It is nothing more than a rhetorical trick.

Let us hold to the truth.  Ashcroft is right in his characterization of
his critics' goals, and his critics are right to try to achieve those
goals.  It is misguided to attack Ashcroft by making the false claim
that he views criticism as treason.  Instead, critics should attack his
position that national unity and resolve must be preserved.  This would
be a substantive debate which would enlighten the American public and
raise awareness of important issues.  Unfortunately the critics have
descended into politically motivated mud-slinging and have deprived
Americans of a valuable opportunity.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Wed Dec 12 17:46:52 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:46:52 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <200112130146.UAA12269@mail.lokmail.net>

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From artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 12 19:26:58 2001
From: artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com (Artcamp SC de RL)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:26:58 -0600
Subject: Hola friend greetings from Guerrero Mexico
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212212629.023cc580@pop.mail.yahoo.com>


Hola friend greetings from Guerrero Mexico

Algunas de nosotras estudiamos ingles en los Estados Unidos
(las jóvenes que se fueron con sus papas mientras ellos trabajaban de
braceros por allá). Gracias a ellas, ahora tenemos mas facilidad para aprender
y usar este idioma. Nosotras estamos aprendiendo a base de traducciones
que  hacemos comoejercicios en nuestras casas y ellas nos corrigen
y así poco a poco vamostodas  mejorando en esta difícil tarea.
Nos cuesta mucho trabajo y es muy difícil, pero sabemos que si queremos 
tener éxito,
esto va a ser primordial manejarlo, así que pues ni modo,
lo tenemos que hacer cueste lo que cueste.

Some of us studied English in the United States (as youth going with their
parents who worked as bracero laborers there) Thanks to them we have the
facility to learn and use the language. We are learning based upon 
translations
that we make as exercises in our homes and they correct us and little by 
little
we are improving in this difficult task. It costs us a lot of work and it 
is very difficult,
but we know that if we wish for success, this is necessary to work for it,
and so therefore we do what we must do.

Hace años nos dijeron que debíamos utilizar el Internet
para poder dejar de ser lo desconocidos que somos.

Years ago we were told that we ought to utilize Internet
to stop being the unknowns that we are.

Algunos de los miembros de nuestra cooperativa han trabajado
por casi tres años en aprender HTLM y los programas necesarios
para poder crear nuestro sitio web.
Contratamos algunos maestros de computación para que nos ayudaran.

Some members of our cooperative have worked for nearly three years
to learn the HTML code and the programs necessary to be able to be able to
create our web site  We hired some teachers of computation to help us.

Finalmente creamos nuestro sitio web
pero todavía estamos tratando de hacer que funciona para nosotras

Finally we created our web site and we are trying to make this work for us.

Confiamos en que Dios nos va a ayudar porque tenemos mucho que ofrecer
y porque sabemos producir nuestras artesanías y constantemente buscamos
cada día nuevas formas para crear lo que nos indican que el mercado de hoy 
quiere.

We believe that God is going to help us because we have much to offer
and because we know how to produce our handcrafts and constantly we seek
each day new forms to create what the markets of today desire.

Quiero darte la dirección del sitio web que creamos (este es el tercer
intento mejorado) de Artcamp (esto es una abreviación de Artesanas Campesinas),
y es el nombre de  nuestra cooperativa.

I want to give you the address of our website that we created
(it is the third attempt to improve it) of Artcamp
(this is an abbreviation of Artesanas Campesinas which means in English,
Rural Women Artisans.

Me gustaría que lo visites y nos aconsejes sobre lo que debemos de estar
haciendo para mejorarlo y poder obtener beneficios del mismo,
como nos dijo el amigo que nos aconsejo hacer este proyecto.

I would like that you visit it and advise us about what we should be doing
to improve and to gain advantage of it like our friend said who advised us 
to do this project.

La dirección es http://www.artcamp.com.mx
Estaré esperando tus comentarios.

The address is http://www.artcamp.com.mx
We will wait for your commentaries.

Eso es todo por el momento, muchas gracias por reconocernos
y esperamos estar en contacto.

That is all for the moment, many thanks for recognizing us
and we hope to be in contact.

Sus amigas en Guerrero México,
saludos todas las mujeres de la cooperativa
de Artcamp:

Your friends in Guerrero México, greetings from all the women of the
Artcamp cooperative.

Yolanda Areli Tamara Marcela Maria Hilaria, Luz, y Anglica y las otras

Ojalá que un dia nos puede visitar aquí en México!

We hope that one day you may visit us in Mexico!

Atentamente,

Nohemi



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com





From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Wed Dec 12 19:45:32 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:45:32 -0600
Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled
References: <200112122341.fBCNfXV10747@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <002d01c18388$9d8514e0$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


I still do not understand how we can support Israel as we do..  From what I
have seen they are as much to blame for their problems as anyone else (maybe
more)...  When I was a much younger man I sided with Israel (American public
schooling, what can I say..)... Now that I am 37, I am tending towards the
Palestinian cause.  I don't approve of the radical groups attacking
civilians but I wouldn't at all disapprove of them attacking the Israeli
government agencies.  What would you do if a foreign government occupied
your country?   Of course allot of the problems would not turn out to be so
violent if countries would stop letting religions run their governments.
Hell, a dictatorship would have works things out by now.....

Jon Beets
Pacer Communications

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Cordian" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:41 PM
Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled


> Gosh - doesn't anyone like the United States anymore?  Give the fuckers
> $3 billion a year in aid, and they elect a war criminal as their Prime
> Minister and pull shit like this.
>
> -----
>
> LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The chairman of the militant Jewish Defense League and
> a follower have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a Los
> Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman, federal
> authorities said today. Irv Rubin, 56, and a member of the group, Earl
> Krugel, 59, both of Los Angeles, were arrested last night after the last
> component of the bomb -- explosive powder -- was delivered to Krugel's
> home, U.S. Attorney John S. Gordon said. Authorities said the two planned
> to bomb the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City and the office of freshman
> Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.
>
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec 12 12:45:41 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:45:41 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <7ba270f960d343ff110f77b6c9b5ea50@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, A. Melon wrote:

> Ninny.

Got no taste of online soap?




From gbroiles at parrhesia.com  Wed Dec 12 21:57:02 2001
From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:57:02 -0800
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship 
In-Reply-To: <9847a6c7f7cfe6247bba76d5cbd77b42@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212213721.055c0b60@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 08:20 PM 12/12/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:

Nomen Nescio wrote recently -

>Some claim that behind the truth of Ashcroft's words is a veiled threat.
>Aiding national enemies is indeed one of the definitions of treason.
>Yet in the larger sense such a reading is plainly absurd.  No Attorney
>General would ever attempt to make the case that criticising government
>policy is treasonous and should be forbidden.

.. but s/he is apparently unfamiliar with the events described in

_United States v. Schenck_ 249 US 47 (1919);
_United States v. Debs_ 249 US 211 (1919);
_Abrams v. US_ 250 US 616 (1919);
and _United States v. Pierce_ 252 US 239 (1920);

all of which are US Supreme Court cases upholding convictions of people for 
the crime of criticizing existing government policy and/or urging 
noncooperation with war-related activity. There were approximately 2000 
prosecutions and 1000 convictions for violations of the speech-related 
Espionage and Sedition acts during World War I.

Nomen quoted Ashcroft as saying "We need honest, reasoned debate; not 
fearmongering" - but Nomen and Ashcroft's call for debate which occurs 
after decisions are made and people are jailed, not before, puts them 
firmly in Beyond the Looking Glass territory, to wit -

>`It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards,' the Queen remarked.
>
>`What sort of things do YOU remember best?' Alice ventured to ask.
>
>`Oh, things that happened the week after next,' the Queen replied in a 
>careless tone. `For instance, now,' she went on, sticking a large piece of 
>plaster [band-aid] on her finger as she spoke, `there's the King's 
>Messenger. He's in prison now, being punished: and the trial doesn't even 
>begin till next Wednesday: and of course the crime comes last of all.'
>
>`Suppose he never commits the crime?' said Alice.
>
>`That would be all the better, wouldn't it?' the Queen said, as she bound 
>the plaster round her finger with a bit of ribbon. Alice felt there was no 
>denying THAT.
>
>`Of course it would be all the better,' she said: `but it wouldn't be all 
>the better his being punished.'
>
>`You're wrong THERE, at any rate,' said the Queen: `were YOU ever punished?'
>
>`Only for faults,' said Alice.
>
>`And you were all the better for it, I know!' the Queen said triumphantly.
>
>`Yes, but then I HAD done the things I was punished for,' said Alice: 
>`that makes all the difference.'
>
>`But if you HADN'T done them,' the Queen said, `that would have been 
>better still; better, and better, and better!' Her voice went higher with 
>each `better,' till it got quite to a squeak at last.

sound familiar?


--
Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
Eliminate due process, civil rights? It's the Constitution, stupid!




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 20:03:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:03:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I can clear her point up for you...

http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18

On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:
> 
> > Back to remailers: this might have a boneheadedly obvious answer, but
> > is there a role for non-publicized privately-run remailer networks to
> > serve as a "privacy buffer" before putting messages thorugh the public
> > remailer system?
> >
> > For example, if I had the hardware, software, phone lines, internet
> > connections and time to run multiple autonomous mixmaster remailers
> > out of my basement to route my own messages (and dummy traffic) around
> > before funneling them to a public remailer, would there be any way to
> > keep all-but-the-last box entirely shut off from view? Could you
> > achieve this degree of anonymity from running Reliable? What would it
> > take to keep a private remailer network truly private?
> 
> Perhaps I'm unclear on what you are proposing... but if this is really a
> private system, as soon as the mail exits, it's obvious that it came from
> you, no matter how much you mixed it around in your basement. So what's
> the point?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Dec 12 06:38:48 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:38:48 +0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
References: 
Message-ID: <3C176BF8.CE587BBE@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Sigh. Choate on court decisions is like Ashcroft on civil liberties.
> > Neither understands them.
> 
> Ad hominim, ad hominim, ad nausium.

Gee - don't you think that if you're going to use hifalutin terms like

"ad hominem" and "ad nauseam," you ought to learn how they're spelled?

Not knowing how they are spelled sorta makes people think you might not
know what they mean...

Marc de Piolenc




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Dec 12 06:39:10 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:39:10 +0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
References: 
Message-ID: <3C176C0E.654E543F@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> > Sigh. Choate on court decisions is like Ashcroft on civil liberties.
> > Neither understands them.
> 
> Ad hominim, ad hominim, ad nausium.

Gee - don't you think that if you're going to use hifalutin terms like

"ad hominem" and "ad nauseam," you ought to learn how they're spelled?

Not knowing how they are spelled sorta makes people think you might not
know what they mean...

Marc de Piolenc




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Dec 12 23:11:13 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:11:13 -0800
Subject: "What the Heck is OPSEC?"
In-Reply-To: <200112122154.QAA10666@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <000101c183a5$59acbda0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>


As a member of the OPSEC Professionals Society (OPS)
, I would encourage any Cypherpunk interested in
operational security to make use of the wealth of information and
training material that can be ordered from the US Interagency OPSEC
Support Staff website at http://www.ioss.gov/

I highly recommend the D*I*C*E Man's OPSEC training videos. I haven't
yet seen this year's video, but last year's video (mostly dealing with
the Chinese thread) was pretty much on target. The interactive CDROM's
aren't too bad, either. Any or all of which can be yours "free of
charge", courtesy of the DOE, NSA, and your tax dollars.

The daily ZGRAM intelligence briefing OPS members receive are downright
priceless. Easily worth the $40/year membership fee. Not to mention that
as an OPS member you qualify to join the Pentagon Credit Union (yes,
that Pentagon). Which offers nifty VISA cards.

--Lucky

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Faustine
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:54 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: FYI: "What the Heck is OPSEC?"
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> What the Heck is OPSEC?
> prepared by Zhi Hamby, Executive Director, OPS 
> http://www.opsec.org/who/who02.htm
> - 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> 
> In a nutshell, OPSEC is a process that teaches you to examine 
> your day-to-day activities from an adversary's point of view, 
> to understand what an adversary can learn about you and/or 
> your organization from these activities (observables), 
> 
> to assess the amount of risk this places on you and/or your 
> organization, and then to develop and apply countermeasures 
> so that the bad guys don't win. 
> 
> Thus, the goal of OPSEC is to control information and 
> observable actions about your capabilities and intentions in 
> order to keep them from being used by your adversary.
> 
> OPSEC works best when incorporated in the planning stages of 
> any project - don't try to close the barn door after the cow 
> has followed the bull to the pasture! To be successful, the 
> integration of OPSEC into plans and projects should be done 
> by the folks who are the most familiar with the particular 
> plan or project. Those are the people who can best identify 
> the plan's or project's critical information (i.e. 
> information that either makes or breaks the project).
> 
> OPSEC analysis focuses mainly on open sources information and 
> actions (i.e. unclassified or uncontrolled). The scary word 
> here is "uncontrolled". The very fact that the information 
> and activities are open source make the implementation of a 
> good OPSEC plan much more challenging.
> 
> Okay, let's take a look at the OPSEC Process.... 
http://www.opsec.org/who/who03.htm




***
The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms.
- --William O. Douglas, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and
its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)

iQA/AwUBPBfSE/g5Tuca7bfvEQI9MACfQzpmqHQarndS7vi7CemH0wEHwjYAoMjf
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From jya at pipeline.com  Wed Dec 12 23:16:44 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:16:44 -0800
Subject: MS Patent for DRM OS 
Message-ID: 


Microsoft's patent for a Digital Rights Management
Operating System was awarded yesterday:

  http://cryptome.org/ms-drm-os.htm

Abstract

A digital rights management operating system 
protects rights-managed data, such as downloaded 
content, from access by untrusted programs while 
the data is loaded into memory or on a page file 
as a result of the execution of a trusted application 
that accesses the memory. To protect the 
rights-managed data resident in memory, the 
digital rights management operating system refuses 
to load an untrusted program into memory while the 
trusted application is executing or removes the data 
from memory before loading the untrusted program. 
If the untrusted program executes at the operating 
system level, such as a debugger, the digital rights 
management operating system renounces a trusted 
identity created for it by the computer processor 
when the computer was booted. To protect the 
rights-managed data on the page file, the digital 
rights management operating system prohibits raw 
access to the page file, or erases the data from 
the page file before allowing such access. 
Alternatively, the digital rights management 
operating system can encrypt the rights-managed 
data prior to writing it to the page file. The 
digital rights management operating system also 
limits the functions the user can perform on the 
rights-managed data and the trusted application, 
and can provide a trusted clock used in place of 
the standard computer clock.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Dec 12 23:19:44 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:19:44 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | Google Expands Usenet Archive to 20 Years
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011212231536.032e18d0@idiom.com>


At 11:07 AM 12/11/2001 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
> > From:         Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com]
> > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/11/0727218.shtml
>
>It's nostalgic to see all the bang!path addresses and .arpa hosts.

I was surprised that among their lists for first this and that
they didn't list the first use of a .com, .net, or .edu address on Usenet.

There were lots of @-style addresses even in the first few months
(viz. the TCP-IP-Digest article), but they were pre-DNS person at machine formats,
where the machine names were relative to the sender's hosts [.txt] file
and were therefore not in theory globally unique names, though in practice
they usually were.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 04:22:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:22:56 +1100
Subject: Quantum encryption and lunatic jamesd hazard 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212232035.00aa8d80@pop.useoz.com>


 >>I am happy to observe that the intellectual level of the
remaining socialists has been sliding downhill rapidly since
the fall of the Soviet Union.

I aim to please.Say ahhh.

 >>Hey mattd, better get moving or you will miss your ride on
the comet.

Judas priest! Someone here cares about me! Its just old tailgunner jamesd 
but thats good enough
for me.




From rahettinga at EarthLink.Net  Wed Dec 12 20:33:02 2001
From: rahettinga at EarthLink.Net (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:33:02 -0500
Subject: Sameer on the History of Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 


At 6:31 PM -0700 on 12/12/01, Anonymous wrote:


> http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2/remailers/
>
> ... what that CNN article wanted to say.

One of the few articles on First Monday that doesn't make me bust out
laughing. (The second one was by Tatsuo Tanaka about the macroeconomic
effects of digital cash, however much I disagreed with his conclusions...)

The fact that I edited both had *absolutely* nothing to do with that
opinion of course. :-).

Seriously, I didn't have any real idea how chains of remailers worked until
I read Sameer's paper for publication, and, to this day, it is, by far, the
clearest explanation of how they work that you can find anywhere.


About a year later, I got roundly bitch-slapped on this list by Mr. May one
afternoon about what a silly liberal-relativist academic navel-gazing
exercise First Monday had become by that point, if it wasn't one from the
outset, and, upon some reflection, I agreed, resigning my founding
editorial board seat there sometime shortly thereafter. It was quite
flattering to be put on the "masthead" of the first "peer-reviewed journal
of the internet", or whatever. Looked nice on the resume, certainly. Not
that anyone needs a resume, anymore, now that Google goes back to 1981...

Cheers,
RAH



-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 21:35:04 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:35:04 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Army confirms anthrax production in Utah - December 12, 2001
Message-ID: <3C183E08.6B93166A@ssz.com>


You reap what you sow...

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/12/army.anthrax/index.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Dec 12 23:35:35 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:35:35 -0800
Subject: FC: More on Symantec, McAfee, loopholes, and
  espionage-enabled 'ware
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011211183644.00a6d3c0@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011212232400.032f0990@idiom.com>


I think the real answer lies at the intersection of
Annalee Newitz (another actually tech journalist besides Declan!:-)'s
answer and Adrian's.  Anti-virus software has two main techniques -
         - look for recognized bad stuff, and
         - look for suspicious changes to good stuff.
plus an anti-technique
         - look for recognized non-bad stuff if one of the previous
         techniques detects bad or suspicious activity.

If the targets of Magic Lantern don't suspect any virus-like problems
and report them to an anti-virus maker who can analyze its behaviour
and include it in the list of known bad stuff, Nothing Happens.
If the Magic Lantern authors are careful to cover up any changes
they make to important files so they don't look suspicious,
         "These aren't the viruses you're looking for.  Move along."
then they also duck the second detection technique.

The two obvious ways that the anti-virus companies could cooperate
with Evildoers, Federal or otherwise, are to actively not comply
with requests to include Evildoer things in their Bad Stuff lists
or to explicitly put recognizers for Evildoer stuff in the OK list.
But if the Feds and the Targets don't tell them what to look for,
then implicitly they usually would not be detected.

                         Bill Stewart


>Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:21:49 -0800 (PST)
>From: Annalee Newitz 
>Subject: symantec's new position
>To: declan at well.com
>
>(you can post this if you like)
>
>--- Declan McCullagh  wrote:
> > We've now heard contradictory reports from both
> > Symantec and McAfee, though
> > I'm inclined to believe McAfee's public,
> > on-the-record statements.
>
>Declan, I've been interviewing "spokespeople" from
>Symantec (they don't like to give out their real
>names) about this issue for the past couple of weeks.
>I finally got one to go on record saying very
>specifically that "if a Symantec customer located a
>copy of the Magic Lantern trojan horse virus and gave
>us a copy, we would be obliged to filter for it with
>our anti-virus software." In other words, their new
>public position is that they will actively block
>FBI-authored viruses. Interesting, no?
>
>Annalee
>
>=====
>Annalee Newitz
>tech * pop * sex
>415.487.2559 - cell: 415.378.4498
>www.techsploitation.com
>
>**********
>
>From: Adrian Alcock 
>To: "'declan at well.com'" 
>Subject: RE: Symantec, McAfee backpedal furiously on espionage enabled-sof
>         tware
>Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:30:21 +1100
>
>Hi Declan.
>
>"Despite subsequent reports to the contrary, officials at
>Symantec Corp. (Nasdaq:SYMC - news) and Network Associates
>Inc. (Nasdaq:NETA - news) said they had no intention of
>voluntarily modifying their products to satisfy the
>FBI. Spokesmen at two other computer security companies,
>Japan-based Trend Micro Inc."
>
>They probably wouldn't have to modify their product to suit the FBI.  I
>don't use either Symantec's or NA's software, but I know that a Sophos
>installation requires extra files (called "virus identity files") for each
>new virus to be protected against.  Assuming that the same applies to McAfee
>and Norton, then we would be concerned if they didn't alter their product to
>identify the FBI's snoopware as it means they are doing nothing to identify,
>let alone act on the threat.
>
>Adrian




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 21:37:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:37:09 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | FBI Confirms Magic Lantern Existence
Message-ID: <3C183E85.BF2E4654@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/13/0249250.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Thu Dec 13 00:23:54 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:23:54 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <001301c183af$80f945e0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>


Meyer Wolfsheim wrote in reply:
> > Do you know how many messages are going through the 
> remailer network 
> > now?  How many do you think the average remailer processes in a day?
> 
> I'm assuming 5-10K/day. I don't know what Tim and others 
> discussed at the meeting that Tim references. Ask him.
> 
> > Now, how many do you think a remailer ought to be handling in order 
> > for there to be enough traffic for people to feel safe?
> 
> I'm unsure. Part of the problem is that I really don't know 
> how many people are sending messages to the remailer network 
> each day. I suspect the number is low.

A popular remailer will handle some 3,500 messages a day. But this
includes intra remailer-network traffic. How many of those messages are
messages entering and leaving the cloud is any remailer operator's
guess, since current remailer statistics software has no means to
differentiate between internal and boundary traffic. Of course any
self-respecting TLA would know the those figures that the remail
operators themselves are currently unable to obtain.

[Yet another feature request...]

--Lucky




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:32:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:32:47 +1100
Subject: The fucking essay 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212233256.00aae9d0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Hate to break it to you but Freud <> Psychology.

On choate prime maybe.Read G.steinem on fraud? I do reckon WH Reich <> mass 
pschology of fascism.

 >>Where jim > appeals to > the angels of our better nature is probably 
also flawed as a realistic > appeal to human psychology.(last page 10)

 >Jim appeals to nothing more than his own vanity.

Lucky he's not here to defend himself eh jimmy?

 >What the fundamental flaw is to expect individuals to use AP to protect 
themselves while at the same time expecting those attacked through AP to do 
nothing other than lay down and take it.

"we have a right to destroy those who would destroy us"...jim bell? yassar 
arafat?...actually its El presidente arbusto e neuman.
I expect those attacked to possibly start a nuclear war,but Im a 
pessimist.Individuals may use anonymity/obscurity to protect themselves.AP 
is here jim,the only 'flaw' is the israelis,anti-choice nutters and US 
special forces are the only ones using it.(oh,and the soprano waste 
management co.of NJ) Lie back and think of choate prime.

 >>If fundamentaly mis-understands that two wrongs don't make a right (even 
if one is done in self-defence) and that when you attack a person their 
reaction is to act in self defence

This is the misunderstanding I get all the time at indymedia.Police 
torturer and murderer so and so should not be the target of operation soft 
drill because,a) two wrongs etc. They need some tim may steel in their 
spine.b) He will just be replaced etc. Only after a few replacements I 
think we quickly reach critical mass,Who is to be master?People still
have trouble conceiving of a lack of hierarchic power. c) Fear of absolute 
repression;You'll bring down heat on the movement,etc.Fuck that noise! Call 
yourselves anarchists! Your not fit to tie makhnos bootlaces,Yaada yada.
Even from a moral or ethical view jimmy your wrong cos to rebel is an 
inalienable right and if you are willing to sacrifice your life you can 
attack whoever you want.No war on terror will ever stop that.
If your a 'turn the other cheek' guy,I agree,up to a point simply for 
tactical reasons.Mass civil disobedience and all legal and semi-legal 
avenues should be explored before violence against persons is 
contemplated.Violence might be as American as cherry pie ,yet I support OSD 
as a way to minimize it.Not eliminate,minimize.Its paradoxical that an 
extremely potent threat to life and limb might do just that.Its worth it on 
a personal level because my bleeding heart concern for the oppressed is on 
record,the authorities dont wish to martyr me and I dont have to sign 
stupid petitions,grovelling pleas for mercy,whinging moans about abuse of 
power,etc. Its fun sometimes.How do you get justice on choate prime?

 >>It's just another example of the CACL failure with respect to the human 
factor. On one hand they speak of what sheep, and on the other they propose 
that these sheep will do the right thing 'if only....'.

CALC has little to do with it.In the last year I've inaccurately been 
labeled a Nazi, a Communist, a Maoist, a Jew, an Anti-Semite, a KKK tool, a 
trotskyist,Racist, a Spic-Lover, a Capitalist Stooge,Sexist,Fed, Tool of 
the Ruling Class if not an Oppressor Myself, and a lawyer.(that hurt) This 
OSD thang trancends labels and pigeon holing.Its already taking hold,we can 
use it in a reputation enhancing way or rapidly become a sort of 'dot 
bomb'.We still have a choice.
Planet earth,its diversity protected and future made sustainable or every 
ones own "insert name' prime.Your choice.




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Wed Dec 12 16:19:02 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:19:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <787929b189d997e243a0edbaecbeebd3@remailer.privacy.at>


Meyer Wolfsheim writes:
> How much of an increase in dummy-messages could the remailer network
> withstand? I'm trying to think of interesting ways to create more
> widespread dummy traffic coming from many different origins, but that
> could get out of hand rather quickly.

Do you know how many messages are going through the remailer network
now?  How many do you think the average remailer processes in a day?

Now, how many do you think a remailer ought to be handling in order for
there to be enough traffic for people to feel safe?

Let's see some quantitative figures, both to show that you've done your
homework and to make clear what security assumptions you are making.




From gr at eclipsed.net  Wed Dec 12 22:33:46 2001
From: gr at eclipsed.net (gabriel rosenkoetter)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:33:46 -0500
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <0b6888eaf9844ca38eee29b1d175ab8f@dizum.com>; from
  nobody@dizum.com on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 09:50:24PM +0100
References: <0b6888eaf9844ca38eee29b1d175ab8f@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20011213013346.B1233@uriel.eclipsed.net>


On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 09:50:24PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> > Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable
> > technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke
> > on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt.
> Total bullshit again.  Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, but so do
> most other elements of the cypherpunk vision.

No, no. AP is funny because it's impracticeable. One does not find an
assassin exclusively by tracing who paid him to kill. One can (and
often does) find him because he makes a mistake in the act of
commiting the crime. Which, if I'm reading my history right, is
what's hampered the noisy proponents of AP up to this point already.

The point is that Bell's theory does a really good job of sorting out
the business end of assassination, but it does nothing for actually
teaching people how to kill. More importantly, it doesn't teach
people how to avoid getting caught.

Killing one person, especially a public official, pisses a whole
bunch of people off. Those people have a tendency to come find
their buddy's killer.

No kind of real or threatened assassination can weaken a government
in which a majority of the governed people believe. It can only make
it seem more righteous and be more strong.

--
gabriel rosenkoetter
gr at eclipsed.net

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 06:34:09 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:34:09 +1100
Subject: : Re: AP Al Qaeda 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213012017.00a17310@pop.useoz.com>


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Without getting into any AP 
discussion, I would point out that there > are some positive things to be 
said about turning to property taxes. > > Also, if you fail to pay your 
property tax now, it will (in extremis) > be confiscated. Armed resistance 
to confiscation would be met by > escalation, including, if 
necessary, >military helicopters.
So the property you own is really(!) owned by the state and you pay the 
initial payments for title transfer and the taxes during occupation (sounds 
like rent doesn't it?) unless you default in which case they take their 
property back... Seems to me the ideal strategy is to not own anything of 
significant value.

"Aint got nothing,got nothing to lose"

A lot of barristers have gone bankrupt lately,It hasn't cramped their 
billing style though.This threads veering into socialistic territory,Im 
telling jamesd!
Also AP comes out of tax revolt,dont try and separate it out,declan.Start a 
new thread on property taxes.Im taxing the land
where the cato institute stands,btw.If I dont get 100,000 k per annum I 
send in my new OSD black helicopters.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 07:03:31 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:03:31 +1100
Subject: The fucking essay 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213014444.00a17090@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Clearly you've NEVER actually talked or read a psych book in the last 50 
years.

David Cooper,rd Laing,Konrad Lorenz,bf,Skinner,Erricson on identity.Dibs in 
search of self.whReich,steinem.
Some of those I read ages ago but I read new scientist regularly and for 
the last 15 years.Freud is as discredited as comprehensively as 
marx.IMHO.Freud invented the sub conscious and marx,surplus value.Yeah 
right.give us a fuggin break
Im not pretending to be expert on anything,Id like to be a sorta 
heinleinian guy.Allrounder,master of none,blah blah,etc,etc.

Im also kinda interested in the psychology of people with flying saucers 
links at their websites,could you help us out?




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 07:30:51 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:30:51 +1100
Subject: Slashdot | Free Software And Its Revolutionary Social
  Implications 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213022334.009f6430@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Those in the audience that are freethinking and not jingoistic

Jamesd help me out here! This crappy kraut wants to quote MARX! This choate 
guy,when he's not baffling with flying saucer bushit,is a motherfucking 
COMMIESYMP! maybe even a COMMIE! Im not joking,he is clinically insane.




From isn at c4i.org  Thu Dec 13 00:33:54 2001
From: isn at c4i.org (InfoSec News)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:33:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ISN] Infamous hacker group helps the Feds
Message-ID: 

http://www.vnunet.com/News/1127639

By James Middleton
12-12-2001

The controversy, rumours and speculation surrounding the FBI's Magic
Lantern tool has attracted ridicule from the internet underground.

Not only has one virus writer constructed a piece of malware under the
same name, but now infamous hacker group the Cult of the Dead Cow
(cDc) has offered a helping hand to the Feds.

Evidently still grizzled about the fact that its notorious Back
Orifice 2K remote control tool was labelled as a malicious program,
the cDc is offering its expertise in the area to help the FBI build
what would be an almost identical tool.

Reid Fleming, a cDc member, said: "Never before has the US faced a
more troublesome enemy. To meet this growing challenge, the FBI has
announced an ongoing effort to create and deploy best-of-breed
electronic surveillance software.

"While we applaud the innovation and drive of the federal law
enforcement agency, those of us who are US citizens would be remiss if
we did not offer our expertise in this area."

A tongue in cheek announcement from the group claims that cDc "has
more targeted experience than anyone else in this field".

And they're right. Back Orifice would do the Magic Lantern job
beautifully. Although the hackers are quite confident that the FBI's
Engineering Research Facility is more than capable, cDc intends to
re-architect Back Orifice from the ground up.

"There will be absolutely no shared code between the two projects, in
order to skirt detection by commercial antivirus packages. The code
will remain totally secret. The software will never surface publicly.
And it will be far more stealthy than anything we have ever released,
demonstrated or publicly discussed," the group said.

Indeed, the central design principle of Magic Lantern and this new
breed of Back Orifice could easily be interpreted as "an artificial
witness which is capable of intercepting any and all relevant activity
during, after and even leading up to the commission of a computer
crime", it added.

The cDc concluded that the project would deliver "the ultimate
intelligence gathering tool. And we intend to construct it, at no
cost, exclusively for the use of the federal government," said
Fleming.

"We are confident that the government will limit the use of this
technology only to targets relevant to legitimate investigations," he
added, further underscoring the cult's faith in federal law
enforcement organisations. "The FBI has a long history of following
Title 18 to the letter."




-
ISN is currently hosted by Attrition.org

To unsubscribe email majordomo at attrition.org with 'unsubscribe isn' in the BODY
of the mail.

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'



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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 08:16:40 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:16:40 +1100
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213030444.00a467d0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Compared to giants like Brookings? Not well-funded, well-known, big, nor 
powerful. Few folks even in DC have heard of it. $1M in grants over a 
period of years is not much by Washington policy group standards. -Declan

Compared to so called "libertarian" institute,Cato,that comps our resident 
bottom feeding scribbler this is low?high?middling?
Right wing conservative 'think tanks' serve a useful purpose for the 
fascist corporate state.Corporations need manufactured
consent as much as Govt.Especially when so many of them are so much bigger 
than many Govts.Ive made several posts
re.the notorious cato institute,the most damaging linking declan through it 
to the murder of george harrison.As I said to
agent faustine,declan,silence speaks volumes in this house.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 08:24:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:24:17 +1100
Subject: AP Al Qaeda, the wrath of choate!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213031803.00a48c00@pop.useoz.com>


Get your damn quoting right, Declan didn't right the '> >' delimited text 
as you indicate.

Get this right dickhead.Im here to annoy  you,declan and any other 
cypherpunk I feel like.Your fancypants,the lotta youse.

(cept peter trei)




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 08:33:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:33:11 +1100
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213032632.00a48ab0@pop.useoz.com>


"Disgruntled cypherpunk of the Year." me,when I find out this is not about 
an axe attack on tim may

Choates not a poster,he's a spamming menace.How longs he been here?




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 10:39:06 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:39:06 +1100
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship in Wartime 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213052941.00a47eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>"the public responsibilities of >the press are a myth." It's entirely 
possible to reconcile that phrase >with the idea that a newspaper is a 
for-profit business.

Especially if your a two headed dog.I cant believe the crap assfluff,cheney 
and the drongo are putting over you people.
They tell you to fly ,fly, fly then warn you next day were all going to 
die,die,die.Of course its all a lie,lie,lie.
Assfluffs a stumbling peccary about to fall into the piranha pool.You can 
fool some people...
The lies about technology and the net remind me of wermacht soldiers at 
stalingrad giving a massive salute while saying
'the shit in berlin is up to HERE!"




From remailer at aarg.net  Thu Dec 13 05:50:09 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:50:09 -0800
Subject: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange
Message-ID: <8e14cd6756fd23297e787a60064390d2@aarg.net>


>non-robot CA master key handling).  Use this key to sign a number of

This has been repeated ad nauseam, but obviously not frequently enough.

No one has been using CAs for anything serious and no one ever will.

Outside of circles of fashionable crypto, commercial scams like verisign and greedy non-profits that want to help freedom fighters/armed thugs (definition changes with proximity), no one whose life and well-being depends on it has ever used CA.

The simple fact is that it is impossible to have shared secrets of utmost importance with someone that you do not have a secure physical channel with (which automagically obsoletes CA). If your life depends on it you will not risk it by sending such information to a person you have no means of directly authenticating. Strangers do not have secrets, by definition.

Why is this so hard to understand ?

The beauty of public key schemes created many seemingly plausible PHantasies pursued by quite a few technically savvy folks. But that does not change the basic problem.

USG operatives, including Osama bin Laden, do not use public computer-based web of trust to authenticate. These guys KNOW each other. Even in non-government business environments, PGP keys between People Who Matter are exchanged manually. MIS department goons never get to see those.

Automated CAs are fine for ad-hoc crypto that prevents casual data harvesting*. But lying to the public about limits of CA schemes will not do crypto any good.



* provided, of course, that one does not use popular OS, all of which will soon make all storage available to casual harvesting. Keep those DOS boxes around.




From baptista at pccf.net  Thu Dec 13 04:04:36 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:04:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties
Message-ID: 


Notes to articles:

Once again I am seeing eyewitness reports claiming more
U.S. Casualties.  Yet I don't see simular reports in the U.S. Press
confirming or denying these claims.

Time will tell.  Dead bodies have a tendency of piling up in Afganistan
and I have no doubt that if they do exist they will be eventually noticed.

regards
joe

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Source: Azzam Publications
URL: http://www.azzam.com  or  http://www.qoqaz.net   or 
     http://www.qoqaz.org  or  http://www.azzam.co.uk
Type: Web Pointer; Sample
Date: 12 Dec 2001
Title: Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties

TEXT:

12 December 2001 : 
Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties
http://66.96.205.195/~azzam/afghan/news/news.php?id=33

http://www.azzam.com 
Daily news, articles and interviews on the Jihad in Afghanistan 

LONDON (IWPR): The London-based Institute for War and Peace
Reporting has reported from Khanabad, Uzbekistan, that the US
air base in this city is receiving daily flights carrying dead
and injured US soldiers. Uzbek sources at Khanabad suggest
that the real figures of US casualties are far higher than the
Pentagon's official totals. Uzbek army personnel working at
the air base said scores of US casualties have been arriving
there. From November 25 to December 2, an Uzbek orderly
working with American medical staff said he had witnessed the
arrival of four to five US helicopters - carrying between them
10-15 American casualties - each day. The orderly said the US
staff he was helping confirmed the casualties coming off the
aircraft were Americans.

A reporter who managed to enter the air base with a group of
visiting Uzbek parents said that one whole floor of a building
and four large canvas tents were full of injured US soldiers,
who have suffered shrapnel and bullet wounds to the arms, leg
and head. The airport sources could not confirm how many
incoming casualties had died. One Uzbek soldier said that
since October 15 he had helped US servicemen load 20 body bags
onto American transport planes. But he could not confirm
whether they were dead US soldiers.

But there is other evidence of American fatalities. One Uzbek
officer said US soldiers had told him that four of their
comrades had died of their wounds on December 1 while being
airlifted to Khanabad. An Uzbek pilot spoke of the death last
week of an American soldier who he had become friendly with
while he was on the base. The US serviceman, he said, had died
in the attempt to end the prison riot on the outskirts of
Mazar-e-Sharif two weeks ago. "A lot of American troops died
there - it was a real battle, " the pilot said.

Uzbek army personnel say the atmosphere on the base has
changed distinctly in the last week or so. They say that in
October when the Americans began deploying at the airport,
they were gung-ho, telling their Uzbek counterparts that it
would take no more than a month and a half to defeat the
Taleban and al-Qaeda. While the Taleban appear to be on their
last legs, al-Qaeda fighters continue to resist in mountain
redoubts, with some US servicemen at Khanabad now resigned to
a long haul. Uzbek military staff say frustration at this is
noticeable. They say they have witnessed growing tensions
among American troops, often overhearing arguments and
shouting matches.

ARAB MUJAHIDEEN WITNESSED AERIAL SUPPORT FROM ALLAAH(SWT)

TORA BORA (Special Report): On Saturday afternoon after Asr
Prayers, the Eastern Shura launched a concentrated offensive
against Mujahideen positions in the Tora Bora mountains.
According to news reports from the area, it was the most
intense attack launched against them so far. Haji Qadeer's
forces had close air and armour support. The US Air Force
bombed the Mujahideen positions savegely and heavy armour was
also pitted against them. The fighting was so intense that the
Mujahideen initiated a tactical retreat to the mountains with
light weapons. They had earlier resolved to die fighting
instead of being taken prisoner. It was when they had moved
back and the forces of the Eastern Shura, supported by a heavy
detachment of US ground troops had moved forward, that bombs
began to fall on the Coalition forces from the sky, killing
300 of the enemy comprising Americans and Haji Qadeer's
militia.

This was without doubt a miracle from Allah (SWT) who had
blinded the American pilots so that they bombed their own
people. The Mujahideen counter- attacked after this incident
and killed another 300 US troops/ Alliance militia, capturing
100 prisoners. It has been reported that a joint force of 900
troops including US soldiers and Eastern Shura militia
attacked the Mujahideen who numbered around 500 troops.

This was a highly organised offensive against the Mujahideen,
which was coordinated by high-ranking US military commanders,
whose mutilated bodies littered the battlefield at the end of
the battle. It has been reported that after this major victory
for the Mujahideen, Haji Qadeer asked the Americans to deploy
more ground troops as American air support has proved to be
impotent against the Mujahideen and lethal instead to the
Americans and their agents. The Mujahideen sources claimed
that it was doubtlessly help from Allah (SWT)

AL-JAZEERA CHANNEL: AMERICAN COMMANDERS KILLED BY MORTAR FIRE
IN TORA BORA

TORA BORA (Al-Jazeera): It was one day last week when a mortar
round from the Arab Mujahideen positions in Tora Bora hit the
command center of the Eastern Alliance, while a planning
session was in progress. According to news reports, high level
US military commanders as well as Haji Qadir's top commanders
were present in the session. The command center was destroyed
by the round and the Eastern Alliance militia used excessive
force to keep the foreign journalists and TV crews from the
scene of carnage. Al-Jazeera Network speculated that this
harrassement was to cover up the heavy blow dealt to the
command structure of the US forces in the area.

-- 
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited




From gr at eclipsed.net  Thu Dec 13 04:32:03 2001
From: gr at eclipsed.net (gabriel rosenkoetter)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:32:03 -0500
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213215544.00a4b7a0@pop.useoz.com>; from
  mattd@useoz.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:36:41PM +1100
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213215544.00a4b7a0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011213073203.N6645@uriel.eclipsed.net>


I'm inserting attributions and reformatting cited text, since you
seem incapable of quoting in a legible manner. I'm also only
replying to the parts of this that particularly amuse me. You should
be aware that I'm not taking you seriously. Ordinarily, I wouldn't
feed the trolls, but I'm bored.

On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:36:41PM +1100, mattd wrote:
> [gr wrote:]
>  >>One can (and often does) find him because he makes a mistake in the
>  >>act of commiting the crime. Which, if I'm reading my history right,
>  >>is what's hampered the noisy proponents of AP up to this point
>  >>already.
> Crime? Wot crime,guvnor? Jim and CJ were not 'noisy'.imo. Im a bit noisy 
> cos Im pushing the 'let it all hang out' version.

Jim Bell was arrested for, charged with, and convicted of crossing
US state lines with the intent to threaten a federal official, a
felony in this country. Felony == crime. 

Carl Johnson was similarly convicted of threatening a federal
official, still a felony in the US.

Regardless of what you think of the laws involved, these two broke
them according to the legal system under which they chose to
operate, which is, by definition, crime.

Bully for you that you live (or claim to live) in Australia under a
different legal system.

The point here is that Bell, Johnson, and you have all made
yourselves prime suspects if any public official (especially one in
the US) is killed in a way that can be linked to assassination
politics, and the still-rather-powerful executive branch of the US
government is likely to come looking for you (and Bell and Johnson,
if they're not incarcerated at that point) if someone should be,
and likely to charge you with incitement to murder. It doesn't
matter whether or not this is Right (I'm willing to stipulate that
it's Wrong), it is the reality of the situation.

The crypto and electronic currency ideas used in assassination
politics are kind of neat as a thought experiment, but the execution
(no pun intended) has, thus far, fallen extremely short. Unless
you know something I don't and would care to share it.

> Mmm,where do we start,lets get some firebrands and go up to the proffrs? 
> Look at sites with no logs for quad anon 'predictors' who may be overseas 
> briefly visiting cybercafes,Good luck china.

My point is that knowing who was paid to kill someone is not the
only way to find out that the assassin performed the assassination.
The assassin can easily be (and often is) caught in the act. The
assassin can fail (and, for bonus points, also be caught). There are
plenty of examples of assassination attempts for which there is no
monetary paper trail in which the assassin has been caught. (Let's
see, in US history off the top of my head: John Wilkes Booth, Lee
Harvey Oswald, and John W. Hinckley Jr.)

The issue of getting caught is totally orthogonal to the monetary
paper trail; they intersect if a LEA uses the monetary paper trail
to catch the assassin, but that's not the only way to catch him.
Getting caught, though, must be a concern equal to, if not greater
than, compensation to an assassin interested in getting paid for
assassination (since he can't get paid if he gets caught or, at
least, it won't do him much
good in prison).

> (you just contradicted yrself btw.)

How so?

> The one person killed will have had to have done a lot of evil shit to get 
> enough pooled (presumably) to tempt a seasoned pro.

I think you've watched Grosse Pointe Blank five too many times. How
many seasoned professional killers do you really imagine are running
around in the US these days? No, really, I want to know what you
think.

> Unless some professional killer turns all altruistic,stranger
> things have happened.The killer could be suicidal.another
> possibility.Lots of scenarios possible here,movie scripts,even.

Hrm. That kind of counteracts the utility of Bell's system of
remuneration for assassination, doesn't it? If the assassin would
have done it for free (or, at least, cheap) and is willing to die
trying, why would he bother with all the crypto flim-flam? Sure,
maybe having a list of "recommended targets" would be helpful for
all those civil-liberty-loving suicidal assassins out there just
searching for a suitably morally devoid victim, but there's not
much need for an organization to hold predictions in escrow then,
now is there?

> KILL THE PRESIDENT! "Id buy that for a dollar!"

Really, I don't see what you've got against W. He's actually just a
harmless twit, another Ronald Reagan. You really ought to be more
interested in his cabinet, starting with (my former governor, who
managed to lose an election to a dead man) Ashcroft. They're the
real assholes. But you'd have a hard time knowing that considering
you don't even live in the country whose public figures you're so
interested in having assassinated.

Cheers mattd, apologies to the unamused on cypherpunks...

-- 
gabriel rosenkoetter
gr at eclipsed.net

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


From utopia_alive at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 08:44:17 2001
From: utopia_alive at yahoo.com (super ego)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:44:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
Message-ID: <20011213164417.82150.qmail@web14905.mail.yahoo.com>


HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A OUR GOVERNMENT WHEN EVERY
POLITICIAN IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAS LIED TO GET INTO
OFFICE, WITH THE IDEA OF TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO
HEAR?

NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN IN OUR GOVERNMENT USES HIS
GOOD REPUTATION OR HIS BACK GROUND TO GET INTO OFFICE
ANYMORE. THEY RAISE AN ISSUE THAT IS MOST NERVE
RACKING AND STAND ON THE SIDE THAT GETS THEM MORE
VOTES. THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT, THEY WANT
INTO OFFICE ANY THEY WILL LIE AND TELL YOU WHAT YOU
WANT TO HEAR IN ORDER TO GET IT.

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?

WHEN ALL LAWYERS HOLD BACK EVIDENCE TO WIN OR LOOSE A
CASE? 

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?

WHEN THE FBI AND CIA LIE AND CHEAT AND STEAL AND COVER
UP AND UNDER STATE AND BLACK MAIL YOU TO KEEP NATIONAL
SECURITY SAFE FOR THERE OIL DRIVEN SELF INTERESTS?

EXAMPLES OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS USING LIES AND
CORRUPTION TO STAY OR KEEP POWER.

1 JFK
2 WATER GATE
3 GRANADA
4 PANAMA CANAL
5 ROSENBURGS
6 LOS ALAMOS
7 CLINTON
8 REAGAN (COLD WAR LIES)
9 BUSH 1&2 GULF OIL WAR 
10 ELIAN FBI LIES
11 FBI WACO
12 FBI TIM MISSING FILES
13 BUSH/GORE ELECTIONS
14 SENATOR CONDATE COVER UP
15 HILLARY LIES
AND MORE IF YOU READ BETWEEN THE LINES OF WHAT ALL
POLITICIANS SAY.

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?

WHEN NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN GIVES IT TO YOU STRAIGHT
SINCE LINCOLN. 

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?

WHEN MORE THAN HALF THE WORLD HATE US BECAUSE WE LIE
TO GET OUR WAY?

OUR COUNTRY IS NOT AN HONEST ONE AND IF YOU THINK THAT
IN ANY WAY IT IS YOUR A LIER ALSO.

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND AND ONE DAY AMERICA WILL
LOOSE SO GET READY BECAUSE IT LOOK LIKE IT ON ITS WAY.

IF YOU THINK THAT ITS OK TO HURT SOMEONE EXPECT TO GET
HURT.

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Dec 13 09:02:59 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:02:59 -0800
Subject: Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3C186EC3.8343.26C21E@localhost>


    --
On 13 Dec 2001, at 7:04, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
> Once again I am seeing eyewitness reports claiming more 
> U.S. Casualties.  Yet I don't see simular reports in the
> U.S. Press confirming or denying these claims.

The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.

In the US, unlike most other countries, there is still
sufficient freedom of speech that soldiers cannot go missing
without it becoming widely known.  The US army does
underreport wounded, and minimize the severity of wounds, but
dead is dead.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     ml7PAylrLroEpLdqChIZmMA6AiPcaFtXPpLio4+J
     4HNvXZNf9H6eIyOEDpLVqNkFM4F/Lv+VKEfE7cELA




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Dec 13 08:10:57 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:10:57 -0700
Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled
Message-ID: <3C18D311.D6747559@lsil.com>


"Jon Beets"  wrote :
>
>I still do not understand how we can support Israel as we do..From:
>
>"Eric Cordian" 
>> Gosh - doesn't anyone like the United States anymore?  Give the
fuckers
>> $3 billion a year in aid, and they elect a war criminal as their
Prime
>> Minister and pull shit like this.
>> -----
>> LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The chairman of the militant Jewish Defense
League and
>> a follower have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a
Los
>> Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman,
federal
>> authorities said today. Irv Rubin, 56, and a member of the group,
Earl
>> Krugel, 59, both of Los Angeles, were arrested last night after the
last
>> component of the bomb -- explosive powder -- was delivered to
Krugel's
>> home, U.S. Attorney John S. Gordon said. Authorities said the two
planned
>> to bomb the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City and the office of
freshman
>> Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
>
I'm not seeing enough suspicion from you cypherpunks - the man who
delivered the "explosive powder" was the federal informant. Golly gee
whiz, sound like a familiar scenario? Appeasement anyone?

Mike




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 13 06:13:08 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:13:08 -0500 (est)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Oh, you mean like the parable of the ants and the grasshopper? Where the
ants get the results of the work they put into it, and the grasshopper who
didn't do any work starves and freezes in the winter?

So now you're saying that the very thing you've had a problem in the past
with because it's capitalism is now a good thing.  So are you finally
evolving?


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> > At 09:53 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
> > >Tim said its an openly elitist list 
> > >once.
> > 
> > Yes, so is an university.  A meritocracy is necessarily discriminatory.
> > 
> > Deal with it.
> 
> Don't confuse having a high standard of excellence with simple egotism
> (which is the majority of the cases with both your examples).
> 
> And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
> not what somebody else thinks it's worth.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Dec 13 06:14:37 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:14:37 -0500
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship
In-Reply-To: <9847a6c7f7cfe6247bba76d5cbd77b42@dizum.com>
References: <9847a6c7f7cfe6247bba76d5cbd77b42@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 


At 8:20 PM +0100 12/12/01, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>Let us hold to the truth.  Ashcroft is right...

[...]

>  Unfortunately the critics have
>descended into politically motivated mud-slinging and have deprived
>Americans of a valuable opportunity.


What opportunity is this?

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Dec 13 06:15:41 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:15:41 -0500
Subject: Area 51 Guards On Strike
Message-ID: 



From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 07:19:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:19:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <20011213013346.B1233@uriel.eclipsed.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, gabriel rosenkoetter wrote:

> Killing one person, especially a public official, pisses a whole
> bunch of people off. Those people have a tendency to come find
> their buddy's killer.
> 
> No kind of real or threatened assassination can weaken a government
> in which a majority of the governed people believe. It can only make
> it seem more righteous and be more strong.

I'm glad somebody 'gets it'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:19:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:19:52 +1100
Subject: Nomen nescio,my ass.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213090911.00a13d20@pop.useoz.com>


 >>. No Attorney General would ever attempt to make the case that 
criticising government policy is treasonous and should be forbidden.
Nomen again,sheesh.

Read my lips.KILL THE PRESIDENT. Now lets turn to assflufs absolute support 
of the "right to life". Except,the odd lethal injection. HELLO!

 >>. critics should attack his position that national unity and resolve 
must be preserved.

OK.Ill attack his position.Ill pay 100 us $ toward the asscroft to 
arlington sleigh ride.FUCK that walking 'naked lunch' typewriter.He is way 
over his head and theres blood in the water,ask declan.You really are a 
numbnuts nomen.
Tim should tear your soul apart.




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 13 06:24:51 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:24:51 -0500 (est)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Actually 'merit' isn't. Merit is measured in a meritocracy by the efficacy
> of the solution. That's a TECHNICAL measure, not emotional or social.

Yes, but someone somewhere is in charge of making the decision that
something is more or less efficient.  How do you measure merit for
instance for literature?  There can be little technical measures.  Sure,
you can measure grammer and spelling, and use of vocabulary, but you
cannot measure creativity by technical means.
 
> Discrimination is inherently ILLOGICAL (ie emotional), which puts it in
> direct odds with the concept of 'merit'.

Discrimination is simply the chosing of A over B, C, D, and E.  It is not
necessarily emotional.  When someone choses mates, he/she does so by
picking the mate that is most likely to guarantee the sucess of their
offspring.

When someone has discriminating taste, it means that they aren't likely to
eat at McDonalds.  Further, discriminating between food and poison is a
very good thing and has everything to do with logic.  The goal of every
being is to survive and to produce offspring.  It is therefore a good
thing if that being can discriminate between sweet and bitter
flavors.  Sweet flavors are more likely to provide nutrition whereas
bitter flavors may indicate posion.

Merit simply discriminates between those who have done the work, and
therefore are worthy of the reward, and those who haven't.


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------



> 
> Further, a meritocracy makes judgements about worth based on the solution
> not the source. Source filtering is inherent in discrimination, hence they
> can't be synonymous or layered.
> 
> > D'oh.
> 
> Doh indeed.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 07:30:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:30:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: <20011213163655.A12555@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Ralph Wallis wrote:

> On Thursday, 13 Dec 2001 at 03:33, mattd  wrote:
> > "Disgruntled cypherpunk of the Year." me,when I find out this is not about 
> > an axe attack on tim may
> > 
> > Choates not a poster,he's a spamming menace.How longs he been here?
> 
> Choate
> first post:
> http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.03.28-1996.04.03/msg00034.html

Way wrong oh buddy boy.

I joined the toad.com list in early to mid '93, known about it since about
two days after it actually formed. The Austin Cypherpunks were formed in
'94 and the discussion and formation was on the toad.com list. SSZ went
online in Oct. of 94 when ISDN became available.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 08:46:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:46:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Gil Hamilton wrote:

> It's interesting to note how much more pleasant Choate was in his
> early days on the list.  In those days, he was not so intent on
> showing everyone that he was an authority on all possible subjects.

That was before I knew what kind of sharks swim in this pool. You don't
like my interaction then change yours. I treat you people the way you
treated me back then. I didn't start it. Go talk to Tim, Delcan, and the
rest of the self-appointed CACL geniuses.

You reap what you sow.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From thesilentmusic at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 10:46:23 2001
From: thesilentmusic at yahoo.com (The Silence)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:46:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME NOW!!!
In-Reply-To: <3C18F35F.5491B065@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011213184623.74666.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Jim Choate  wrote:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23387.html
> -- 
> 
>  --
>    
>
____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me
> lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper
> Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.       
>   James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/   
>   ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\   
>   512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>    
--------------------------------------------------------------------


=====
MSM Management
5713 Harco St.
Long Beach, CA 90808
Office: (213) 760-2258
Http://www.thesilencemusic.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 08:51:22 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:51:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange
In-Reply-To: <8e14cd6756fd23297e787a60064390d2@aarg.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, AARG! Anonymous wrote:

> means of directly authenticating. Strangers do not have secrets, by
> definition.

Strangers are secrets by definition, otherwise they wouldn't be strangers.

In fact it IS possible to exchange (anonymously to boot) secrets provided
the infrastructure is distributed and the encryption is of the suitable
type (ie using 'small world' network models). The problme with all the
current schemes is that the 'public key' is too 'public'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From baptista at pccf.net  Thu Dec 13 08:03:56 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:03:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties
In-Reply-To: <3C186EC3.8343.26C21E@localhost>
Message-ID: 


I agree.  I suspect this may be more propaganda then fact.  The publishing
group is pro bin laden - or so claims the times of india.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 13 Dec 2001, at 7:04, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
> > Once again I am seeing eyewitness reports claiming more 
> > U.S. Casualties.  Yet I don't see simular reports in the
> > U.S. Press confirming or denying these claims.
> 
> The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.
> 
> In the US, unlike most other countries, there is still
> sufficient freedom of speech that soldiers cannot go missing
> without it becoming widely known.  The US army does
> underreport wounded, and minimize the severity of wounds, but
> dead is dead.
> 
>     --digsig
>          James A. Donald
>      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
>      ml7PAylrLroEpLdqChIZmMA6AiPcaFtXPpLio4+J
>      4HNvXZNf9H6eIyOEDpLVqNkFM4F/Lv+VKEfE7cELA
> 

-- 
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
The Executive Plaza, Suite 908
150 West 51st Street                     Tel: 1 (208) 330-4173
Manhattan Island NYC 10019 USA           Fax: 1 (208) 293-9773




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 09:08:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:08:54 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Emergence (Book review about complexity theory)
Message-ID: <3C18E0A5.7461EC73@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/books/01/12/13/1619253.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 09:11:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:11:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties
In-Reply-To: <3C186EC3.8343.26C21E@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.
> 
> In the US, unlike most other countries, there is still
> sufficient freedom of speech that soldiers cannot go missing
> without it becoming widely known.  The US army does
> underreport wounded, and minimize the severity of wounds, but
> dead is dead.

They also mis-report the cirumstances of the deaths as well.

So, if somebody was interested a little traffic analysis would take the
number reported 'over there' and then the number reported 'over here'
(irrespective of locations and such) and then begin to correlate them (a
lot of work and access to info that won't be easy to get, w/o an insider).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From baptista at pccf.net  Thu Dec 13 08:19:10 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:19:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
In-Reply-To: <20011213164417.82150.qmail@web14905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 


so .. how do you propose the problems be fixed?

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, super ego wrote:

> HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
> 
> HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A OUR GOVERNMENT WHEN EVERY
> POLITICIAN IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAS LIED TO GET INTO
> OFFICE, WITH THE IDEA OF TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO
> HEAR?
> 
> NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN IN OUR GOVERNMENT USES HIS
> GOOD REPUTATION OR HIS BACK GROUND TO GET INTO OFFICE
> ANYMORE. THEY RAISE AN ISSUE THAT IS MOST NERVE
> RACKING AND STAND ON THE SIDE THAT GETS THEM MORE
> VOTES. THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT, THEY WANT
> INTO OFFICE ANY THEY WILL LIE AND TELL YOU WHAT YOU
> WANT TO HEAR IN ORDER TO GET IT.
> 
> HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
> 
> WHEN ALL LAWYERS HOLD BACK EVIDENCE TO WIN OR LOOSE A
> CASE? 
> 
> HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
> 
> WHEN THE FBI AND CIA LIE AND CHEAT AND STEAL AND COVER
> UP AND UNDER STATE AND BLACK MAIL YOU TO KEEP NATIONAL
> SECURITY SAFE FOR THERE OIL DRIVEN SELF INTERESTS?
> 
> EXAMPLES OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS USING LIES AND
> CORRUPTION TO STAY OR KEEP POWER.
> 
> 1 JFK
> 2 WATER GATE
> 3 GRANADA
> 4 PANAMA CANAL
> 5 ROSENBURGS
> 6 LOS ALAMOS
> 7 CLINTON
> 8 REAGAN (COLD WAR LIES)
> 9 BUSH 1&2 GULF OIL WAR 
> 10 ELIAN FBI LIES
> 11 FBI WACO
> 12 FBI TIM MISSING FILES
> 13 BUSH/GORE ELECTIONS
> 14 SENATOR CONDATE COVER UP
> 15 HILLARY LIES
> AND MORE IF YOU READ BETWEEN THE LINES OF WHAT ALL
> POLITICIANS SAY.
> 
> HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
> 
> WHEN NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN GIVES IT TO YOU STRAIGHT
> SINCE LINCOLN. 
> 
> HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
> 
> WHEN MORE THAN HALF THE WORLD HATE US BECAUSE WE LIE
> TO GET OUR WAY?
> 
> OUR COUNTRY IS NOT AN HONEST ONE AND IF YOU THINK THAT
> IN ANY WAY IT IS YOUR A LIER ALSO.
> 
> WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND AND ONE DAY AMERICA WILL
> LOOSE SO GET READY BECAUSE IT LOOK LIKE IT ON ITS WAY.
> 
> IF YOU THINK THAT ITS OK TO HURT SOMEONE EXPECT TO GET
> HURT.
> 
> HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 

-- 
The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

http://www.dot-god.com/




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 01:21:06 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:21:06 +0200
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
References: 
Message-ID: <005f01c183b7$a6cea960$5600a8c0@microbilt.romwest.ro>


From: "Meyer Wolfsheim" 

> Smells like entrapment, though.

I think the Constitution was the biggest curse ever cast on you. Every time
something bad happens, you use these magic words like "entrapment" or
"protected by the first ammendment" and so on, instead of shooting the
criminals. The Constitution, by making you look at it like the some sacred
Mr. Fix-It-All, made you all into wimps.

Not that we're any better, mind you, but we're simply chickens, after
several hundred years of foreign rulers... And most people in my country
(myself included) have no idea what OUR constitution says - it doesn't
matter anyway. (Well, we have the usual stuff about slavery being bad, and
we also have mandatory 1-year conscripts.)

Mark




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 09:44:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:44:33 -0600
Subject: The Register - Watch out! There's an anti-terrorist law about (UK)
Message-ID: <3C18E901.756E5607@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23374.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 09:46:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:46:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


If you check the Cypherpunks archives you'll find an 18 point answer to
that question I posted in the last year or so.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 baptista at pccf.net wrote:

> so .. how do you propose the problems be fixed?
> 
> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, super ego wrote:
> 
> > HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
> > 
> > HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A OUR GOVERNMENT WHEN EVERY
> > POLITICIAN IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAS LIED TO GET INTO
> > OFFICE, WITH THE IDEA OF TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO
> > HEAR?
> > 
> > NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN IN OUR GOVERNMENT USES HIS
> > GOOD REPUTATION OR HIS BACK GROUND TO GET INTO OFFICE
> > ANYMORE. THEY RAISE AN ISSUE THAT IS MOST NERVE
> > RACKING AND STAND ON THE SIDE THAT GETS THEM MORE
> > VOTES. THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT, THEY WANT
> > INTO OFFICE ANY THEY WILL LIE AND TELL YOU WHAT YOU
> > WANT TO HEAR IN ORDER TO GET IT.

[SSZ: text deleted]


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




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                       ###
-------------- next part --------------
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 10:03:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:03:00 -0600
Subject: Pentagon Releases bin Laden Tape
Message-ID: <3C18ED54.43C378F3@ssz.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011213/us/afghan_bin_laden_tape_15.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 10:28:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:28:47 -0600
Subject: The Register - The Microsoft Secure PC: MS patents a lock-down OS
Message-ID: <3C18F35F.5491B065@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23387.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 13 12:50:01 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:50:01 
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
Message-ID: 


From: Ralph Wallis [mailto:mischief at optushome.com.au]

> > Choates not a poster,he's a spamming menace.How longs he been here?
>
>Choate
>first post:
>http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.03.28-1996.04.03/
>msg00034.html

Naw, he's been around longer than that.  This is the earliest
message I can find:
    http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1993/11/msg00633.html

It's interesting to note how much more pleasant Choate was in his
early days on the list.  In those days, he was not so intent on
showing everyone that he was an authority on all possible subjects.

- GH


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx




From thesilentmusic at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:20:03 2001
From: thesilentmusic at yahoo.com (The Silence)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:20:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME FROM THIS LIST NOWWWWW!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <200112131817.MAA28338@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011213212003.36944.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>



--- info at appsales.net wrote:
> (To be removed from our list, Please click on or
> send an email to: remove at appsales.net.  Please put
> REMOVE as the subject.  If you do not have REMOVE as
> your subject you may be overlooked for removal) 
> 
> (JMP1128) THE CHANCE TO SAVE $2,000.00 ON JOB MASTER
> PRODUCTION AND CONTROL SOFTWARE HAS BEEN HELD OVER
> UNTIL DECEMBER 21!
> 
> We received such a high volume of calls on this
> special, that we have extended the ordering deadline
> until December 21.  Start your New Year right with a
> complete production control and tracking software
> package at an unbeatable price!
> 
> Job Master, normally $2,495.00, remains not only on
> sale for $1,495.00, but if we receive your order by
> the end of our working day Friday, December 21,
> you'll also receive two user licenses and a link to
> either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or Excel at no charge,
> AN ADDITIONAL THOUSAND DOLLAR SAVINGS.
> 
> Right now, $1,495.00 buys you Job Master, two seats,
> and a link to either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or
> Excel.  Job Master retails for $2,495.00.  Seats are
> $150.00 and links are $750.00 each.  THIS IS A
> $3,500.00 VALUE FOR $1,495.00 IF YOU ORDER BY
> FRIDAY, December 21.
> 
> Job Master is designed specifically for small to
> medium sized manufacturers, and even at our regular
> price of $2,495.00 costs many thousands of dollars
> less than any other even remotely comparable
> software package.  
> 
> If you've been waiting to upgrade your production
> control and tracking software or to computerize your
> operation, now is the time.  For one more day,
> $1,495.00 gets you everything-Job Master network
> version, two user licenses, and a link to your
> accounting program or to Excel.  
>  
> Job Master, a complete, user friendly Windows based
> software package, can manage and control your
> operation from sales quote to shipment.
> 
> Following is a list of features. If you have any
> questions, and would like to discuss the package
> further, or if you would like to obtain our Web site
> address for a total walk through of the program,
> please call me directly at (661) 286-0041, or email
> me at info at appsales.net
> 
> By way of background, we are a software company,
> which for some years has specialized in the
> development of custom software, primarily for small
> to medium sized manufacturers.  Job Master is a
> distillation of over a million and a half dollars of
> software we have developed to control and manage the
> production of our manufacturing clients.
> 
> Job Master contains the following features:
> 
> 1. QUOTATION MODULE.  In this module, quotes are
> developed, modified, and produced for sending to
> your client.  A history is kept of all quotes for
> future reference, or modification for other clients.
>  All quotations and revisions are "auto numbered,"
> including versions.  The quotes section allows for
> the entry of parts/processes, and costing of each,
> including materials, labor, markup, and taxes. 
> Inventory status can be accessed from this section
> for reference.
> 
> 2. SALES ORDER.  Once a quotation is accepted, the
> final quotation information can be transformed into
> a Sales Order for your client's signature on a
> "point and click" basis.  The Sales Order can be
> modified and re issued if necessary.  A history if
> kept of all Sales Orders for future reference, or
> modification for other clients.  All sales orders
> and revisions are "auto numbered," including
> versions.  Inventory status can be accessed from
> this section for reference.
> 
> 3. CUSTOMER LETTERS can be created from the
> Quotation and Sales Order sections.
> 
> 4. SHOP TRAVELER/WORK ORDER.  Once a Sales Order is
> accepted, the sales order information can be
> transformed into a shop traveler/work order on a
> "point and click" basis.  Each item on the Sales
> Order becomes a shop traveler/work order, with each
> step of production of the item then listed on the
> traveler/work order.  Each such traveler/work order
> is tied back into the Sales Order.  The shop
> traveler/work order allows for the entry of line
> items, and notes on each line item. The shop
> traveler/work order contains a "notes" section.  The
> Shop traveler/work order allows for the storing or
> attachment of drawings to the traveler/work order. 
> The shop traveler/work order also contains a "drop
> down," from which standard processes can be selected
> for inclusion on the shop traveler/work order.  The
> shop traveler/work order numbers progress in order
> of production sequence, and re numbers them if new
> steps are added.  The shop traveler/work order
> allows for change orders or revisions, and!
>  numbers changes in sequence of the original shop
> traveler/work order number; i.e., 100, 100-1, 100-2,
> etc.  All shop traveler/work orders and related
> revisions are retained in memory for future
> reference.  The shop traveler/work order is bar
> coded for tracking of production step by step, and
> production of ongoing client status reports.  Bar
> coding includes the ability for an employee to
> "swipe" their own ID bar code for recording in the
> system as to who upgraded what step.  The shop
> traveler/work order function also allows for manual
> update of production status.  The shop traveler/work
> order allows for quality control sign off, and the
> final production of certifications, either from a
> "canned" list, or hand typed in on a case by case
> basis.
> 
> 5. INVENTORY.  The application includes an inventory
> section, which allows operations to check materials
> inventory in and out.  The inventory section allows
> for the comparison of inventory received against a
> P.O., and produces an "overage/underage" report of
> inventory received as compared against the P.O.  The
> inventory section allows for the setting of minimum
> (re-order now!) and maximum inventory amounts, and
> produces reports showing what inventory needs to be
> ordered, as well as inventory that is at or above
> the maximum set to have in house.   The inventory
> section also tracks "partially shipped" orders,
> which are tied in to the shipping function.  This
> section shows how much completed product under a
> particular order has been actually shipped to a
> client, and how much remains to be shipped.  The
> balance is adjusted as shipments are made.
> 
> 6. REQUEST FOR PURCHASE.  The application allows
> operators to produce a Request For Purchase for
> accounting for any inventory items, which need to be
> ordered.  Inventory items have a drop down of
> approved vendors for each item.
> 
> 7. REQUEST FOR BID.   The application allows
> operators to produce a Request For Bid for
> accounting to send to Vendors for any inventory
> items, which need to be ordered.  Inventory items
> have a drop down of approved vendors for each item
> to which Requests For Bid can be sent.
> 
> 8. INVOICE.  The application produces an
> invoice/invoice detail for all completed items ready
> to be billed/shipped to clients.
> 
> 9. PRODUCTION OUTPUT STATUS.  The application
> produces a date range selectable report on how much
> product, and the value of the product, which was
> completed during a selected date range.  The
> application also produces a report on how many
> orders, and the value of those orders, which remain
> to be completed during a selected date range.
> 
> 10. The application produces SHIPPING DOCUMENTS as
> per selected shippers, and produces a PACKING SLIP.
> 
> 11. The application has a "FIND" FUNCTION in
> selected sections, allowing for searches by customer
> name, work order number, etc.
> 
> 12. The application has "AUTO FILL;" i.e., when an
> operator starts to type in a name, number, etc. all
> related information auto fills after the first few
> letters or numbers are typed in.
> 
> Job Master is currently being sold in the
> marketplace for $2,495.00 per package.  However, if
> we receive your order by December 21, your total
> price will be $1,495.00 INCLUDING a free link to
> either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or Excel (a $750.00
> value) and two free seats (a $300.00 value).
> 
> Again, if you have any questions at all, or would
> like to place your order, please call me on my
> direct line, (661) 286-0041 or email me at
> info at appsales.net.  
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> Wayne McFarland
> Link It Software Corp.
> 
> 
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
=== message truncated ===


=====
MSM Management
5713 Harco St.
Long Beach, CA 90808
Office: (213) 760-2258
Http://www.thesilencemusic.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com




From thesilentmusic at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:20:33 2001
From: thesilentmusic at yahoo.com (The Silence)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:20:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME FROM THIS LIST NOWWWW!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011213160556.00a88680@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20011213212033.94330.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Declan McCullagh  wrote:
> I'll know I'll regret responding to the
> mattdproffraptroll, but briefly: I 
> am not affiliated in any way with the Cato
> Institute. I don't believe I've 
> ever written anything for them; I am not an adjunct
> scholar/policy analyst 
> for them; I've been in their building just once in
> the last five months or 
> so. Most importantly, they say things with which I
> do not agree.
> 
> That said, they are a worthy, respectable, valuable,
> and valued think tank, 
> and I always enjoy reading what they write.
> 
> As for a "damming exposure," it's just another
> screed. Yawn.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> At 07:48 AM 12/14/2001 +1100, mattd wrote:
>
>http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast
> >
> >Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and
> flunkys involved. G'way 
> >mate.
> 


=====
MSM Management
5713 Harco St.
Long Beach, CA 90808
Office: (213) 760-2258
Http://www.thesilencemusic.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com




From thesilentmusic at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:20:50 2001
From: thesilentmusic at yahoo.com (The Silence)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:20:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME FROM THIS LIST NOW!!!!!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20011213212050.37050.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Duncan Frissell  wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:
> 
> >
>
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast
> >
> > Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and
> flunkys involved. G'way mate.
> >
> 
> That was a Fraser Institutute writer btw. But then
> an Aussie commie might
> not make nice distinctions.
> 
> The IMF/WTO should hold a get together in one of the
> US states with
> concealed carry laws and then we'd see how commie
> scum fare.
> 
> If capitalists were really up to snuff, they'd
> organize a counter demo
> force armed with the most effective pre-firearms
> crowd control weapon --
> the quarterstaff.  Cut down on the old street demos.
> 
> DCF
> -----
> "My fifth great grandfather Captain William Frizzell
> didn't answer the
> Lexington alarm back in April of '75 so that
> anti-globalization protestors
> (or governments for that matter) could stop me from
> exchanging any atoms
> or bits with anyone else on earth.  And if they try,
> I have the right to
> use the same means *he* employed against his
> enemies."
> 


=====
MSM Management
5713 Harco St.
Long Beach, CA 90808
Office: (213) 760-2258
Http://www.thesilencemusic.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com




From thesilentmusic at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:22:41 2001
From: thesilentmusic at yahoo.com (The Silence)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:22:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME NOW!!!!
In-Reply-To: <200112132000.PAA13193@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <20011213212241.9414.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Faustine  wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> From: "Meyer Wolfsheim" 
> Marcel wrote:
> 
> > Smells like entrapment, though.
> >>I think the Constitution was the biggest curse
> ever cast on you. Every time
> >>something bad happens, you use these magic words
> like "entrapment" or
> >>"protected by the first ammendment" and so on,
> instead of shooting the
> >>criminals. 
> 
> And shooting innocent people too. And anyone who
> opposes those in power
> whether they're innocent or not. 
> 
> I think the United States Constitution was the
> biggest blessing ever cast on
> mankind. Not a blessing from "on high", but from men
> who had the courage of
> their convictions.
> 
> 
> >The Constitution, by making you look at it like the
> some sacred
> >Mr. Fix-It-All, made you all into wimps.
> 
> Fuck that. You ought to be be grateful: if it
> weren't for the Constitution, the
> US would have taken over your little country and the
> rest of the world
> with it a long, long time ago. That kind of gross
> totalitarian imperialism is
> all anyone has to look forward to in a US without
> what's left of the
> Constitution.
> 
> Something to think about. 
> 
> 
> ~Faustine.
>    
> 
> ***
> 
> [The prosperity of the United States] is not the
> result of accident. It has a
> philosophic cause. Without the Constitution and the
> Union, we could not have
> attained the result; but even these are not the
> primary cause of our great
> prosperity. There is something back of these,
> entwining itself more closely
> about the human heart. That something, is the
> principle of "Liberty to all" --
> the principle that clears the path for all -- gives
> hope to all -- and, by
> consequence, enterprise and industry to all.
> 
> The expression of that principle, in our Declaration
> of Independence, was most
> happy, and fortunate. Without this, as well as with
> it, we could have declared
> our independence of Great Britain; but without it,
> we could not, I think, have
> secured our free government and consequent
> prosperity. The assertion of that
> principle, at that time, was the word "fitly spoken"
> which has proven an "apple
> of gold" to us. The Union, and the Constitution, are
> the picture of silver,
> subsequently framed around it. The picture was made,
> not to conceal, or destroy
> the apple; but to adorn and preserve it. The picture
> was made for the apple --
> not the apple for the picture.
> 
> So let us act, that neither picture, or apple shall
> ever be blurred, bruised or
> broken.
> 
> That we may so act, we must study, and understand
> the points of danger.
> 
> 
> Abraham Lincoln
> Fragmentary Writing, c. 1858
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network
> Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies.
> (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)
> 
>
iQA/AwUBPBkI4Pg5Tuca7bfvEQLkWACeISo364I6I2OL1P7W00y0GRyRhiEAoJPh
> 2HLA1BWsIEnnrKD5GVC3ENIG
> =0clb
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 


=====
MSM Management
5713 Harco St.
Long Beach, CA 90808
Office: (213) 760-2258
Http://www.thesilencemusic.com

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From piolenc at mozcom.com  Wed Dec 12 21:22:47 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:22:47 +0800
Subject: cryptographic fantasy (ca. "Stego, my ass" by WF Buckley)
References: <3C179F3B.8DC3418@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3C183B27.CFB7249C@mozcom.com>




Michael Motyka wrote:

> As far as his assertion about the popularity of UBL in the Philippines :
> sounds like a stretcher to me - Muslims are only strong in the extreme
> south e.g. Mindanao. Most of the population is pretty strict Catholic.
> There may be some resentment of the US but I think overall there is a
> hunger for all things US : education, media, goods, travel and trade.
> 
> The older folks definitely still remember the Japanese.

You are correct. There is a small radical (mostly young) element that
thinks he's pretty neat, but they're a minority-in-a-minority. They're
likely to become even more of one soon, as many are allegedly
volunteering for service in Afghanistan aganist the Great Satan...

Marc de Piolenc
Iligan City, Philippines




From thesilencekills at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:23:33 2001
From: thesilencekills at yahoo.com (The Silence Mailing List)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:23:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME NOW!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <200112131817.MAA28335@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011213212333.90406.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>



--- info at appsales.net wrote:
> (To be removed from our list, Please click on or
> send an email to: remove at appsales.net.  Please put
> REMOVE as the subject.  If you do not have REMOVE as
> your subject you may be overlooked for removal) 
> 
> (JMP1128) THE CHANCE TO SAVE $2,000.00 ON JOB MASTER
> PRODUCTION AND CONTROL SOFTWARE HAS BEEN HELD OVER
> UNTIL DECEMBER 21!
> 
> We received such a high volume of calls on this
> special, that we have extended the ordering deadline
> until December 21.  Start your New Year right with a
> complete production control and tracking software
> package at an unbeatable price!
> 
> Job Master, normally $2,495.00, remains not only on
> sale for $1,495.00, but if we receive your order by
> the end of our working day Friday, December 21,
> you'll also receive two user licenses and a link to
> either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or Excel at no charge,
> AN ADDITIONAL THOUSAND DOLLAR SAVINGS.
> 
> Right now, $1,495.00 buys you Job Master, two seats,
> and a link to either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or
> Excel.  Job Master retails for $2,495.00.  Seats are
> $150.00 and links are $750.00 each.  THIS IS A
> $3,500.00 VALUE FOR $1,495.00 IF YOU ORDER BY
> FRIDAY, December 21.
> 
> Job Master is designed specifically for small to
> medium sized manufacturers, and even at our regular
> price of $2,495.00 costs many thousands of dollars
> less than any other even remotely comparable
> software package.  
> 
> If you've been waiting to upgrade your production
> control and tracking software or to computerize your
> operation, now is the time.  For one more day,
> $1,495.00 gets you everything-Job Master network
> version, two user licenses, and a link to your
> accounting program or to Excel.  
>  
> Job Master, a complete, user friendly Windows based
> software package, can manage and control your
> operation from sales quote to shipment.
> 
> Following is a list of features. If you have any
> questions, and would like to discuss the package
> further, or if you would like to obtain our Web site
> address for a total walk through of the program,
> please call me directly at (661) 286-0041, or email
> me at info at appsales.net
> 
> By way of background, we are a software company,
> which for some years has specialized in the
> development of custom software, primarily for small
> to medium sized manufacturers.  Job Master is a
> distillation of over a million and a half dollars of
> software we have developed to control and manage the
> production of our manufacturing clients.
> 
> Job Master contains the following features:
> 
> 1. QUOTATION MODULE.  In this module, quotes are
> developed, modified, and produced for sending to
> your client.  A history is kept of all quotes for
> future reference, or modification for other clients.
>  All quotations and revisions are "auto numbered,"
> including versions.  The quotes section allows for
> the entry of parts/processes, and costing of each,
> including materials, labor, markup, and taxes. 
> Inventory status can be accessed from this section
> for reference.
> 
> 2. SALES ORDER.  Once a quotation is accepted, the
> final quotation information can be transformed into
> a Sales Order for your client's signature on a
> "point and click" basis.  The Sales Order can be
> modified and re issued if necessary.  A history if
> kept of all Sales Orders for future reference, or
> modification for other clients.  All sales orders
> and revisions are "auto numbered," including
> versions.  Inventory status can be accessed from
> this section for reference.
> 
> 3. CUSTOMER LETTERS can be created from the
> Quotation and Sales Order sections.
> 
> 4. SHOP TRAVELER/WORK ORDER.  Once a Sales Order is
> accepted, the sales order information can be
> transformed into a shop traveler/work order on a
> "point and click" basis.  Each item on the Sales
> Order becomes a shop traveler/work order, with each
> step of production of the item then listed on the
> traveler/work order.  Each such traveler/work order
> is tied back into the Sales Order.  The shop
> traveler/work order allows for the entry of line
> items, and notes on each line item. The shop
> traveler/work order contains a "notes" section.  The
> Shop traveler/work order allows for the storing or
> attachment of drawings to the traveler/work order. 
> The shop traveler/work order also contains a "drop
> down," from which standard processes can be selected
> for inclusion on the shop traveler/work order.  The
> shop traveler/work order numbers progress in order
> of production sequence, and re numbers them if new
> steps are added.  The shop traveler/work order
> allows for change orders or revisions, and!
>  numbers changes in sequence of the original shop
> traveler/work order number; i.e., 100, 100-1, 100-2,
> etc.  All shop traveler/work orders and related
> revisions are retained in memory for future
> reference.  The shop traveler/work order is bar
> coded for tracking of production step by step, and
> production of ongoing client status reports.  Bar
> coding includes the ability for an employee to
> "swipe" their own ID bar code for recording in the
> system as to who upgraded what step.  The shop
> traveler/work order function also allows for manual
> update of production status.  The shop traveler/work
> order allows for quality control sign off, and the
> final production of certifications, either from a
> "canned" list, or hand typed in on a case by case
> basis.
> 
> 5. INVENTORY.  The application includes an inventory
> section, which allows operations to check materials
> inventory in and out.  The inventory section allows
> for the comparison of inventory received against a
> P.O., and produces an "overage/underage" report of
> inventory received as compared against the P.O.  The
> inventory section allows for the setting of minimum
> (re-order now!) and maximum inventory amounts, and
> produces reports showing what inventory needs to be
> ordered, as well as inventory that is at or above
> the maximum set to have in house.   The inventory
> section also tracks "partially shipped" orders,
> which are tied in to the shipping function.  This
> section shows how much completed product under a
> particular order has been actually shipped to a
> client, and how much remains to be shipped.  The
> balance is adjusted as shipments are made.
> 
> 6. REQUEST FOR PURCHASE.  The application allows
> operators to produce a Request For Purchase for
> accounting for any inventory items, which need to be
> ordered.  Inventory items have a drop down of
> approved vendors for each item.
> 
> 7. REQUEST FOR BID.   The application allows
> operators to produce a Request For Bid for
> accounting to send to Vendors for any inventory
> items, which need to be ordered.  Inventory items
> have a drop down of approved vendors for each item
> to which Requests For Bid can be sent.
> 
> 8. INVOICE.  The application produces an
> invoice/invoice detail for all completed items ready
> to be billed/shipped to clients.
> 
> 9. PRODUCTION OUTPUT STATUS.  The application
> produces a date range selectable report on how much
> product, and the value of the product, which was
> completed during a selected date range.  The
> application also produces a report on how many
> orders, and the value of those orders, which remain
> to be completed during a selected date range.
> 
> 10. The application produces SHIPPING DOCUMENTS as
> per selected shippers, and produces a PACKING SLIP.
> 
> 11. The application has a "FIND" FUNCTION in
> selected sections, allowing for searches by customer
> name, work order number, etc.
> 
> 12. The application has "AUTO FILL;" i.e., when an
> operator starts to type in a name, number, etc. all
> related information auto fills after the first few
> letters or numbers are typed in.
> 
> Job Master is currently being sold in the
> marketplace for $2,495.00 per package.  However, if
> we receive your order by December 21, your total
> price will be $1,495.00 INCLUDING a free link to
> either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or Excel (a $750.00
> value) and two free seats (a $300.00 value).
> 
> Again, if you have any questions at all, or would
> like to place your order, please call me on my
> direct line, (661) 286-0041 or email me at
> info at appsales.net.  
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> Wayne McFarland
> Link It Software Corp.
> 
> 
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
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From thesilencekills at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:25:51 2001
From: thesilencekills at yahoo.com (The Silence Mailing List)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:25:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME PLEASSEE!!!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011213160556.00a88680@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <20011213212551.18452.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Declan McCullagh  wrote:
> I'll know I'll regret responding to the
> mattdproffraptroll, but briefly: I 
> am not affiliated in any way with the Cato
> Institute. I don't believe I've 
> ever written anything for them; I am not an adjunct
> scholar/policy analyst 
> for them; I've been in their building just once in
> the last five months or 
> so. Most importantly, they say things with which I
> do not agree.
> 
> That said, they are a worthy, respectable, valuable,
> and valued think tank, 
> and I always enjoy reading what they write.
> 
> As for a "damming exposure," it's just another
> screed. Yawn.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> At 07:48 AM 12/14/2001 +1100, mattd wrote:
>
>http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast
> >
> >Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and
> flunkys involved. G'way 
> >mate.
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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From thesilencekills at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:27:01 2001
From: thesilencekills at yahoo.com (The Silence Mailing List)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:27:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME PLEASE!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20011213212701.58743.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Duncan Frissell  wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:
> 
> >
>
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast
> >
> > Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and
> flunkys involved. G'way mate.
> >
> 
> That was a Fraser Institutute writer btw. But then
> an Aussie commie might
> not make nice distinctions.
> 
> The IMF/WTO should hold a get together in one of the
> US states with
> concealed carry laws and then we'd see how commie
> scum fare.
> 
> If capitalists were really up to snuff, they'd
> organize a counter demo
> force armed with the most effective pre-firearms
> crowd control weapon --
> the quarterstaff.  Cut down on the old street demos.
> 
> DCF
> -----
> "My fifth great grandfather Captain William Frizzell
> didn't answer the
> Lexington alarm back in April of '75 so that
> anti-globalization protestors
> (or governments for that matter) could stop me from
> exchanging any atoms
> or bits with anyone else on earth.  And if they try,
> I have the right to
> use the same means *he* employed against his
> enemies."
> 


__________________________________________________
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From thesilencekills at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:27:53 2001
From: thesilencekills at yahoo.com (The Silence Mailing List)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:27:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME PLEASSE!!!!
In-Reply-To: <200112132000.PAA13193@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <20011213212753.18854.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Faustine  wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> From: "Meyer Wolfsheim" 
> Marcel wrote:
> 
> > Smells like entrapment, though.
> >>I think the Constitution was the biggest curse
> ever cast on you. Every time
> >>something bad happens, you use these magic words
> like "entrapment" or
> >>"protected by the first ammendment" and so on,
> instead of shooting the
> >>criminals. 
> 
> And shooting innocent people too. And anyone who
> opposes those in power
> whether they're innocent or not. 
> 
> I think the United States Constitution was the
> biggest blessing ever cast on
> mankind. Not a blessing from "on high", but from men
> who had the courage of
> their convictions.
> 
> 
> >The Constitution, by making you look at it like the
> some sacred
> >Mr. Fix-It-All, made you all into wimps.
> 
> Fuck that. You ought to be be grateful: if it
> weren't for the Constitution, the
> US would have taken over your little country and the
> rest of the world
> with it a long, long time ago. That kind of gross
> totalitarian imperialism is
> all anyone has to look forward to in a US without
> what's left of the
> Constitution.
> 
> Something to think about. 
> 
> 
> ~Faustine.
>    
> 
> ***
> 
> [The prosperity of the United States] is not the
> result of accident. It has a
> philosophic cause. Without the Constitution and the
> Union, we could not have
> attained the result; but even these are not the
> primary cause of our great
> prosperity. There is something back of these,
> entwining itself more closely
> about the human heart. That something, is the
> principle of "Liberty to all" --
> the principle that clears the path for all -- gives
> hope to all -- and, by
> consequence, enterprise and industry to all.
> 
> The expression of that principle, in our Declaration
> of Independence, was most
> happy, and fortunate. Without this, as well as with
> it, we could have declared
> our independence of Great Britain; but without it,
> we could not, I think, have
> secured our free government and consequent
> prosperity. The assertion of that
> principle, at that time, was the word "fitly spoken"
> which has proven an "apple
> of gold" to us. The Union, and the Constitution, are
> the picture of silver,
> subsequently framed around it. The picture was made,
> not to conceal, or destroy
> the apple; but to adorn and preserve it. The picture
> was made for the apple --
> not the apple for the picture.
> 
> So let us act, that neither picture, or apple shall
> ever be blurred, bruised or
> broken.
> 
> That we may so act, we must study, and understand
> the points of danger.
> 
> 
> Abraham Lincoln
> Fragmentary Writing, c. 1858
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network
> Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies.
> (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)
> 
>
iQA/AwUBPBkI4Pg5Tuca7bfvEQLkWACeISo364I6I2OL1P7W00y0GRyRhiEAoJPh
> 2HLA1BWsIEnnrKD5GVC3ENIG
> =0clb
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 


__________________________________________________
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From thesilencekills at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:28:08 2001
From: thesilencekills at yahoo.com (The Silence Mailing List)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:28:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: REMOVE ME PLEASE!!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20011213212808.18900.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com>



--- measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:51:33 -0800
> From: Nora Callahan 
> To: november-l at november.org
> Subject: Nov-L: Supremes will interpret Apprendi in
> guns/drug offenses
>     early 2002
> 
> Supreme Court accepts challenge of federal gun crime
> 
> GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer   
>      
> (12-10) 11:23 PST WASHINGTON (AP) --  
>    
> The Supreme Court agreed Monday to consider the
> fairness of federal
> prison terms for inmates given longer sentences for
> using a firearm in
> their crimes.     
>                              
> The question for justices: whether juries or judges
> should decide if
> someone brandished or discharged a weapon while
> committing a crime.
> 
> In federal courts, juries must decide beyond a
> reasonable doubt if there
> was a crime. Whether a gun was involved can be
> settled separately by a
> judge, who uses a lesser standard of proof.
> 
> The Supreme Court will review the case of William
> Joseph Harris, whose
> attorneys argued that the process violates
> defendants� constitutional
> rights to due process and a jury trial.  The weapon
> allegation does not
> have to be listed in an indictment.
> 
> Congress requires longer prison sentences for people
> who use guns during
> violent crimes or drug dealing.  The penalty for
> brandishing a weapon is
> at least seven years in prison and for discharging a
> gun is 10 years.
> 
> Harris had pleaded guilty in 1999 to selling
> marijuana out of his pawn
> shop in Albemarle, N.C. He wore a pistol in a hip
> holster while at work
> for safety reasons, his lawyer told the court. 
> Harris bragged during
> one sale that his homemade bullets could pierce a
> police officer�s
> armored jacket, according to government records.
> 
> A judge convicted him of brandishing a gun while
> engaged in drug
> trafficking, then sentenced him to the mandatory
> seven years in prison.
> 
> "He could have received seven years even without
> that finding," the 4th
> U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said in rejecting his
> case.
> 
> The Bush administration had urged the Supreme Court
> to also turn back
> Harris� appeal, arguing that Congress in 1998
> properly set penalties for
> criminals who use weapons.
> 
> Justices decided to hear arguments in the case next
> year.
> 
> Harris� appeal relies on a 2000 Supreme Court ruling
> that overturned a
> New Jersey man�s sentence for a hate crime. 
> Justices said a jury�not a
> judge� should have decided if Charles Apprendi was
> motivated by bias
> when he fired shots into the home of a black family.
>  Apprendi, who is
> white, had gotten a longer sentence because a judge
> ruled it was a hate crime.
> 
> "Any fact that increases the penalty for a crime
> beyond the prescribed
> statutory maximum must be submitted to a jury, and
> proved beyond a
> reasonable doubt," the court said in the Apprendi
> case.
> 
> Multiple appeals are pending or have come through
> the Supreme Court with
> similar arguments from defendants in drug cases.
> 
> The case is Harris v. United States, 00-10666.
> 
> -- 
> The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c)
> (3) nonprofit
> organization, your gifts are tax deductible. 
> You can send your donation to: 
> 
> The November Coalition  
> 795 South Cedar 
> Colville, WA 99114
> --------
> November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the
> November Coalition.
> To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/
> or send a
> message to november-L-request at november.org
> containing the command
> "unsubscribe"
> 


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From freematt at coil.com  Thu Dec 13 10:28:24 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:28:24 -0500
Subject: Cultural libertarianism the real threat to America?
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor: I could have titled this essay Jonah 
Goldberg doesn't get it.  Mr. Goldberg is the online editor for 
National Review and has written a series of attack pieces on 
libertarianism.  Below is the newest example.  I did read one line 
that jumped from the page that is the crystallization of his view of 
conservatism when he wrote: "You foster good character by limiting 
freedom".  Then curiously Goldberg writes: "I've done lots of things 
in my life that are "un-conservative." Even now, my personal tastes 
are not entirely consistent with what most people associate with 
conservatism."  I can only regard his appeasement a personal 
rejection of the conservative values he is talking about, which I 
suppose he made in hopes of still being able to get laid-  But on to 
the "meat" of his argument-  I'm not entirely sure what ideology 
Goldberg wants imposed on us?  It surely can't be an American one as 
outlined in our first amendment" "Congress shall make no law 
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free 
exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the 
press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to 
petition the government for a redress of grievances."  I don't see a 
constitutional mandate to impose any religion on anybody? Nor can I 
see where limiting freedom by continuing the war on drugs to be 
anything beneficial?  I really have nothing but contempt and disdain 
for writers such as Goldberg who want to impose some sort of ill 
defined governmental "conservatism" while personally considering 
himself a member of the elite which doesn't have to follows rules 
made for the rest of the sheep.]



Jonah Goldberg can be reached at (JonahEmail at aol.com).

Freedom Kills
John Walker, Andrew Sullivan, and the libertarian threat.

By Jonah Goldberg, NRO editor

December 12, 2001 6:25 p.m.

First, George Bush refers to "the evildoers" at every turn, but 
insists on pronouncing it "the evil Dewars." And now the major news 
networks are constantly referring to John Walker, the American 
Taliban, as "Johnny Walker": "Is Johnny Walker un-American?" "Does 
Johnny Walker represent a viper in our midst?" etc.

Well, you can count me out of the "war on terrorism" if it becomes a 
proxy war on our most cherished brown liquors.

What John Walker Says About the Right

So let's talk about John Walker, the man, and leave poor Johnny out 
of this. Indeed, it's turning out that John is one of the most 
interesting cultural Rorschach tests we've had in a while.

If you haven't been following the argument, you should read the 
article in yesterday's New York Times comparing the life of Mike 
Spann - the "God and country" CIA agent who was killed in Afghanistan 
- to that of John Walker, the son of hippy-dippy divorced parents 
from Marin County, California. The article put some flesh on what a 
lot of conservatives have been saying over the last week. Spann is a 
red-state guy, Walker a blue-stater. Spann is from Alabama: He's 
religious, from a strong, stable family, and he always wanted to 
fight for his country. Walker comes from a wishy-washy, 
whatever-floats-your-boat family living in the shadow of - where 
else? - San Francisco.

The always eye-opening Shelby Steele made the definitive "blue state" 
argument in Monday's Wall Street Journal. In brief, Steele argues 
that Walker is a product of overly permissive, fashionably 
anti-American Left-coast liberalism.

Andrew Sullivan, of the coincidentally named AndrewSullivan.com, also 
saw Walker's obvious cultural significance, labeling him a poster boy 
of blue-state culture. But Sullivan then backed off from the "blue 
state" argument, after his readers persuaded him that he had it 
wrong. The Walker case is "much more complex and more interesting 
than my original impression," Sullivan writes. One of the arguments 
that persuaded him to drop his "blue state" analysis is the fact that 
Walker became a "right-wing" fanatic. He excerpts a letter from a 
reader making this case:

Maybe I missed something, but I am not sure how a religious 
fundamentalist and zealot like John Walker is an embodiment of the 
American Hating Left. He is a right wing religious nut just like the 
guy arrested here in Cincinnati last week for sending fake anthrax to 
abortion clinics. While you may be correct that his permissive 
parents and his multicultural context may have produced him (sounds 
like something some right wing nut case would say about 
homosexuality, right Andrew?), what it produced was a right wing 
Islamic religious nut who hates the West and America for its 
decadence (which he enjoyed and benefited from) and sin, just like 
his brothers on the right wing Christian extreme (like maybe Tim 
McVeigh, who was a Catholic to boot?). Let's at least be honest that 
Walker represents some of the worst of American permissiveness and 
multiculturalism, while being the embodiment of right wing religious 
fanaticism. I think we all get caught on this one.

The lefties, meanwhile, have been slow out of the gate, but basically 
think that tagging the Left with Walker is just so much McCarthyism. 
But that's not what I want to talk about.

The Problem of Andrew Sullivanism
What I do want to talk about is the problem with the conservative 
critique of Walker and with Sullivan's approach in general.

It's not surprising that Sullivan changed his mind after reading that 
letter. After all, he had already made it a project, if not a 
mission, to establish that so-called "theocons" (i.e. religious 
conservatives, particularly Christian ones) practiced a form of 
Talibanism - long before most people in the United States had ever 
heard of the Taliban.

For example, in the cover story for the current New Republic, on the 
future of conservatism, Sullivan uses the war on Islamic extremists 
to argue that America, and conservatives in particular, need to drop 
our own support for such "extremists" at home. "It is hard to fight a 
war against politico-religious extremism," Sullivan writes, "if you 
are winking at milder versions in your own political coalition." This 
is reminiscent of his argument during the Clinton impeachment 
battles. "For the new conservatives," Sullivan wrote in 1998 in The 
New York Times Magazine, "the counterattack on homosexual legitimacy 
is of a piece with the battle against presidential adultery."

Sullivan's essay in The New Republic is certainly worth reading, but 
in the end his conclusion is that all branches of conservatism are 
wrong, and that they should basically adopt Sullivan's own quirky, 
iconoclastic, personal brand of conservatism, complete with his 
imperative of incorporating gays into the mainstream conservative 
movement.

In a nutshell, this is my problem with Andrew Sullivan's 
conservatism. He's a brilliant and charming guy. But he seems to 
reject or critique all forms of conservatism that don't dovetail with 
his own personal priorities. I'm not referring solely, or even 
primarily, to his homosexuality or advocacy of gay rights. From what 
I can tell, Sullivan's conservatism is informed not just by his 
sexuality but by his Catholicism, his blue-collar British roots, his 
serious hang-ups about British authoritarian culture, and - not least 
- by the fact that he's a follower of the British philosopher Michael 
Oakeshott (if I were smarter and more patient, I think I'd be an 
Oakeshottian too) and a protigi of the classical conservative Harvey 
Mansfield. Moreover, Sullivan's conservatism isn't just informed by 
these things, it's informed by the perhaps insurmountable 
contradictions between these things.

For example: Oakeshott had a brilliantly nuanced and highly tolerant 
understanding of conservatism and of liberal society (he believed, I 
think, that the best metaphor for a good society was a good 
conversation). Meanwhile, Catholicism is wonderful, but it's hardly a 
democratic institution. And as for Mansfield, he's a leading opponent 
of gay rights. Further, anti-traditionalism in Britain may have its 
uses, but in America anti-traditionalism runs against many of the 
things conservatives rightly want to preserve. As Hayek pointed out, 
in America you can be a conservative traditionalist and still be a 
champion of liberty - because our institutions preserve liberty 
rather than combat it.

Anyway, my point is: That's all great. These sometimes competing, 
sometimes complimentary impulses make Sullivan a joy to read (and 
talk to). But the extrapolation of one's personal beliefs - or, more 
accurately, one's personality - to a broad universal philosophy is at 
minimum a form of arrogance, and at maximum a recipe for disaster.

Take me, for example. I've done lots of things in my life that are 
"un-conservative." Even now, my personal tastes are not entirely 
consistent with what most people associate with conservatism. But, I 
do not argue that conservatism would be better off if everybody 
adopted my own personal choices and tastes. Rather, I try to make the 
case for old-style conservatism in a way lots of people like me can 
relate to. The fact that I can't or won't live up to the ideal may 
make me hypocritical to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean the 
message is wrong. As the moral philosopher Max Scheler reportedly 
said: The sign that points to Boston doesn't have to go there.

Sullivan is right to criticize certain conservatives for being too 
ideological. But what he doesn't give credit for, to these same 
conservatives, is that a little ideology is always necessary in order 
to remember what your ideas are.

Chinese-Menu Culture

If Sullivan is guilty of translating his personal priorities into a 
public agenda, he at least does so by speaking in the vocabulary of 
morality. His arguments for everything from gay marriage to the war 
on terrorism are deeply moral and proudly conservative.

The real villains - the ones who take this sort of political 
solipsism a great deal further than Sullivan - are to be found 
elsewhere, and John Walker is a logical consequence of their 
political agenda. You see, the real enemy isn't the cultural 
liberalism Shelby Steele describes. It's the cultural libertarianism 
that is rapidly replacing liberalism as the real threat to America, 
and the true opposition to conservatism.

Cultural libertarianism basically says that whatever ideology, 
religion, cult, belief, creed, fad, hobby, or personal fantasy you 
like is just fine so long as you don't impose it on anybody else, 
especially with the government. You want to be a Klingon? Great! 
Attend the Church of Satan? Hey man, if that does it for ya, go for 
it. You want to be a "Buddhist for Jesus"? Sure, mix and match, man; 
we don't care. Hell, you can even be an observant Jew, a devout 
Catholic or a faithful Baptist, or a lifelong heroin addict - they're 
all the same, in the eyes of a cultural libertarian. Just remember: 
Keep it to yourself if you can. Don't claim that being a Lutheran is 
any better than being a member of the Hale-Bopp cult, and never use 
the government to advance your view. If you can do that, then - 
whatever floats your boat.

Of course, liberalism subscribes to something very similar, but 
today's liberalism is more of a condescending pose. It finds exotic 
ideologues - Marxists, black separatists, transgender theorists, 
whatever - fashionable and interesting as entertainment. The liberals 
who run the New York Times are simply thrilled to have these sorts of 
cultural rejectionists at their cocktail parties. But very few of 
them want their kids to become any such thing. They want their kids 
to go to private schools, attend an Ivy League or comparable 
liberal-arts college in New England, and become nice tolerant 
stockbrokers who are extra-careful to donate generously to the United 
Way, 'cause that might help people of color.

But, at the same time, modern liberals hate traditional orthodoxies. 
If you're a pious Zoroastrian, they will show you off to their 
friends as if you were an exotic fertility mask they bought on a 
vacation safari. But if you are a pious Baptist, don't wait by the 
phone, because you won't be invited over at all. And, of course, 
liberals see no problem with using the government to impose their 
cultural beliefs on others; they just won't admit that's what they're 
doing.

In this sense, cultural libertarians are less bigoted than their 
liberal cousins. The libertarians think all ideologies - so long as 
there's no governmental component - are equal.

But of course, the flip side of this is that cultural libertarianism 
is essentially a form of arrogant nihilism. There are no universal 
truths or even group truths (i.e., the authority of tradition, 
patriotism, etc.) - only personal ones. According to cultural 
libertarianism, we should all start believing in absolutely nothing, 
until we find whichever creed or ideology fits us best. We can pick 
from across the vast menu of human diversity - from all religions and 
cultures, real and imagined - until we find one that fits our own 
personal preferences. Virginia Postrel can write triumphantly that 
the market allows Americans to spend $8 billion on porn and $3 
billion at Christian bookstores, because she isn't willing to say 
that one is any better, or any worse, than the other.

Unreasonable Reason

The leading champions of this ideology are the folks over at Reason 
magazine. Nick Gillespie, who recently replaced Postrel as the 
editor, is a voluptuary of the idea that we can all have 
individualized, designer cultures. While he's got a healthy disdain 
for identity politics, Gillespie keeps going beyond that, and argues 
that people should be able to be whatever they want. Perhaps because 
cultural libertarianism is so popular on the Left these days, 
Gillespie recently told the Washington Post that he will try to woo 
anti-drug-war liberals, and others on the Left, to the magazine.

For a long time, but now more than ever, Reason has essentially 
argued that being a drug addict is a lifestyle choice like any other. 
Because, hey, who are we to judge? Indeed, Gillespie is very fond of 
the usual argument of pro-drug libertarians: I've done lots of drugs, 
and I turned out okay - so why should I tell other people they can't? 
In the latest issue, featuring a big neon sign spelling "DRUGS" on 
the cover, Gillespie confesses that when he was younger, he did "pot 
and alcohol, mostly, but also acid, mescaline, Ecstasy, mushrooms, 
coke and meth... Mostly I did drugs because they were fun and I liked 
the way I felt when I was high." In other words, if it's good for me, 
it's good for everybody.

So what does all of this have to do with John Walker? Well, John 
Walker's father has told various interviewers that he was just 
delighted that his son believed in something. He liked the fact that 
his son had "passion" for something. The fact that it was a 
thumb-in-the-eye to traditional Western values made him more exotic, 
to be sure. But that was just gravy.

You don't turn children into responsible adults by giving them 
absolute freedom. You foster good character by limiting freedom, and 
by channeling energies into the most productive avenues. That's what 
all good schools, good families, and good societies do. The Boy 
Scouts don't throw a pocketknife to a kid and say, "Knock yourself 
out, kid. I'll be back in a couple hours." The cultural libertarians 
want to do precisely that.

Someone threw John Walker a copy of The Autobiography of Malcolm X 
and said, "Knock yourself out, kid." From there, left to his own 
devices, he slid down a long slope to the Taliban - because nobody 
had the moral courage or maturity to put him on the right path. He 
could just as easily have become another Columbine spree-killer, or a 
drug addict - or, perhaps, a fireman. But any of these, it seems, 
would be a surprise to his father.

It's hip and cool to say, "Be whatever you want." But - as in the 
case of the Boy Scout with the pocketknife - it's all fun and games 
until somebody loses an eye. If you tell kids they can believe in 
anything (and that anybody who disagrees is a bigot), you will 
eventually breed a bunch of kids who despise the very openness you 
champion.

Western civilization in general and American culture in particular 
are remarkably, almost uniquely, open to and tolerant of competing 
views and faiths. That's wonderful. But pluralism is not, to borrow a 
phrase, a suicide pact. Chesterton pointed out that when a man stops 
believing in God, he won't believe in nothing, he'll believe in 
anything. God isn't necessarily the issue here. But the principle is 
the same. Humans, especially children, very much want to believe in 
things. If we don't bother to teach - or impose - certain Western 
values on our own people, they will embrace values that are neither 
open nor tolerant. Belief in "something" just isn't good enough.

__________________________________________________________________________
Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in
receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.
---



**************************************************************************
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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 18:44:05 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:44:05 +1100
Subject: Shitty tradecraft agent faustine
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213134050.00a50bc0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>I just can't say this enough: one of the drawbacks of viewing all feds 
as donut-chomping incompetents is that it fosters a false sense of 
complacency. Underestimating your adversary never did anyone a bit of good. 
Something to think about, anyway. ~Faustine.

True babe,thats why I write half my posts directly atcha,girl.Now fausty 
get your gun.Go down the hall and blow cheneys dick off,will you,theres a 
good little girl.




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec 13 11:48:03 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:48:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nov-L: Supremes will interpret Apprendi in guns/drug offenses early
 2002 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:51:33 -0800
From: Nora Callahan 
To: november-l at november.org
Subject: Nov-L: Supremes will interpret Apprendi in guns/drug offenses
    early 2002

Supreme Court accepts challenge of federal gun crime 
GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer   
     
(12-10) 11:23 PST WASHINGTON (AP) --  
   
The Supreme Court agreed Monday to consider the fairness of federal
prison terms for inmates given longer sentences for using a firearm in
their crimes.     
                             
The question for justices: whether juries or judges should decide if
someone brandished or discharged a weapon while committing a crime.

In federal courts, juries must decide beyond a reasonable doubt if there
was a crime. Whether a gun was involved can be settled separately by a
judge, who uses a lesser standard of proof.

The Supreme Court will review the case of William Joseph Harris, whose
attorneys argued that the process violates defendants� constitutional
rights to due process and a jury trial.  The weapon allegation does not
have to be listed in an indictment.

Congress requires longer prison sentences for people who use guns during
violent crimes or drug dealing.  The penalty for brandishing a weapon is
at least seven years in prison and for discharging a gun is 10 years.

Harris had pleaded guilty in 1999 to selling marijuana out of his pawn
shop in Albemarle, N.C. He wore a pistol in a hip holster while at work
for safety reasons, his lawyer told the court.  Harris bragged during
one sale that his homemade bullets could pierce a police officer�s
armored jacket, according to government records.

A judge convicted him of brandishing a gun while engaged in drug
trafficking, then sentenced him to the mandatory seven years in prison.

"He could have received seven years even without that finding," the 4th
U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said in rejecting his case.

The Bush administration had urged the Supreme Court to also turn back
Harris� appeal, arguing that Congress in 1998 properly set penalties for
criminals who use weapons.

Justices decided to hear arguments in the case next year.

Harris� appeal relies on a 2000 Supreme Court ruling that overturned a
New Jersey man�s sentence for a hate crime.  Justices said a jury�not a
judge� should have decided if Charles Apprendi was motivated by bias
when he fired shots into the home of a black family.  Apprendi, who is
white, had gotten a longer sentence because a judge ruled it was a hate crime.

"Any fact that increases the penalty for a crime beyond the prescribed
statutory maximum must be submitted to a jury, and proved beyond a
reasonable doubt," the court said in the Apprendi case.

Multiple appeals are pending or have come through the Supreme Court with
similar arguments from defendants in drug cases.

The case is Harris v. United States, 00-10666.

-- 
The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit
organization, your gifts are tax deductible. 
You can send your donation to: 

The November Coalition  
795 South Cedar 
Colville, WA 99114
--------
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"unsubscribe"




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 18:54:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:54:20 +1100
Subject: more shitty tradecraft from agent faustine
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213135031.00a53170@pop.useoz.com>


 >>don't try to close the barn door after the cow has followed the bull to 
the pasture!

Do you ever listen to yourself,F? Come away from the dark side of the 
force.While you still can.




From ericm at lne.com  Thu Dec 13 14:09:38 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:09:38 -0800
Subject: [jei@cc.hut.fi: FBI Surveillance Software to be Part of Windows
  XP Updates (fwd)]
Message-ID: <20011213140938.A17507@slack.lne.com>


This should have gone directly to the cypherpunks list.

----- Forwarded message from Jei  -----


From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 13 11:33:58 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:33:58 -0500 (est)
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



That's not coercion you moron, that's progress.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> > At 08:03 PM 12/6/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
> > >Coercion is implicit in all capitalism above low level market and 
> > >trade
> > 
> > Joe the nailmaker invests in a machine to make nails faster
> > than he can by hand.  Who has he coerced?
> 
> The market. He threatens the other nail producers and forces them to
> respond. That is coercion (just psychological and economic instead of
> physical force).
> 
> Coercion isn't bad (consider discounts based on reputation), it's why and
> how that matters.
> 
> Right back to the end doesn't justify the means, again.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Thu Dec 13 14:47:16 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:47:16 -0800
Subject: FBI Surveillance Software to be Part of Windows XP Updates (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3C18BF74.5433.12B9EF3@localhost>


On 13 Dec 2001, at 22:33, Jei wrote:


> "We are confident that Microsoft and the government will limit the use of
> this technology only to targets relevant to legitimate investigations," he
> added, further underscoring the cult's faith in federal law enforcement
> organisations. "The FBI has a long history of following Title 18 to the
> letter."
> 
> 

This has to be a joke/hoax.

George

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





From faustine at lokmail.net  Thu Dec 13 12:00:32 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:00:32 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <200112132000.PAA13193@mail.lokmail.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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URL: 

From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec 13 13:27:38 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:27:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: REMOVE ME FROM THIS LIST NOWWWW!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <20011213212033.94330.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 



You were "smart" enough to suscrive, you should be "smart" enough to
unsuscrive.


On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, The Silence wrote:

> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:20:33 -0800 (PST)
> From: The Silence 
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: CDR: REMOVE ME FROM THIS LIST NOWWWW!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> --- Declan McCullagh  wrote:
> > I'll know I'll regret responding to the
> > mattdproffraptroll, but briefly: I 
> > am not affiliated in any way with the Cato
> > Institute. I don't believe I've 
> > ever written anything for them; I am not an adjunct
> > scholar/policy analyst 
> > for them; I've been in their building just once in
> > the last five months or 
> > so. Most importantly, they say things with which I
> > do not agree.
> > 
> > That said, they are a worthy, respectable, valuable,
> > and valued think tank, 
> > and I always enjoy reading what they write.
> > 
> > As for a "damming exposure," it's just another
> > screed. Yawn.
> > 
> > -Declan
> > 
> > At 07:48 AM 12/14/2001 +1100, mattd wrote:
> >
> >http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast
> > >
> > >Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and
> > flunkys involved. G'way 
> > >mate.
> > 
> 
> 
> =====
> MSM Management
> 5713 Harco St.
> Long Beach, CA 90808
> Office: (213) 760-2258
> Http://www.thesilencemusic.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 13:35:38 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:35:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213161740.03d54ab0@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Frissell's Believe it or Not:
> 
> WWII was won by soldiers, sailors, and marines who fought, died, flew 
> bombers, commanded armies, commanded fleets, and possessed and used nuclear 
> weapons without ever having provided the US government with any proof of 
> their identity.

Bullshit, if they had birth certificates they were required to produce
them. And if you worked on the neuclear weapons then the FBI most
certainly did do a background check.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Thu Dec 13 15:52:25 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:52:25 -0800
Subject: : Re: How do you sleep?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214102110.00a63eb0@pop.useoz.com>; from
  mattd@useoz.com on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 10:51:03AM +1100
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214102110.00a63eb0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011213155225.B45484@neutraldomain.org>


Would Declan be more effective in your mind if he started throwing
rocks at a MacDonalds arch on Pennsylvania Avenue? Somehow I see his
contributions to any movement I would be associated with as being a
little more worthwhile than what you have written/done that I have
read||about. --Gabe




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec 13 12:58:30 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:58:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: How do you sleep?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214074528.00a59180@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast
>
> Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and flunkys involved. G'way mate.
>

That was a Fraser Institutute writer btw. But then an Aussie commie might
not make nice distinctions.

The IMF/WTO should hold a get together in one of the US states with
concealed carry laws and then we'd see how commie scum fare.

If capitalists were really up to snuff, they'd organize a counter demo
force armed with the most effective pre-firearms crowd control weapon --
the quarterstaff.  Cut down on the old street demos.

DCF
-----
"My fifth great grandfather Captain William Frizzell didn't answer the
Lexington alarm back in April of '75 so that anti-globalization protestors
(or governments for that matter) could stop me from exchanging any atoms
or bits with anyone else on earth.  And if they try, I have the right to
use the same means *he* employed against his enemies."




From declan at well.com  Thu Dec 13 13:09:55 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:09:55 -0500
Subject: How do you sleep?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214074528.00a59180@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011213160556.00a88680@mail.well.com>


I'll know I'll regret responding to the mattdproffraptroll, but briefly: I 
am not affiliated in any way with the Cato Institute. I don't believe I've 
ever written anything for them; I am not an adjunct scholar/policy analyst 
for them; I've been in their building just once in the last five months or 
so. Most importantly, they say things with which I do not agree.

That said, they are a worthy, respectable, valuable, and valued think tank, 
and I always enjoy reading what they write.

As for a "damming exposure," it's just another screed. Yawn.

-Declan

At 07:48 AM 12/14/2001 +1100, mattd wrote:
>http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast
>
>Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and flunkys involved. G'way 
>mate.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 14:16:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:16:01 -0600
Subject: Colorado State University - History - Gearing up for World War II
Message-ID: <3C1928A1.6186D2E8@ssz.com>


The required registration for the draft in 1940 qualifies as 'identifying'
the soldiers.

http://www.colostate.edu/history/wwii9.htm

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec 13 13:18:53 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:18:53 -0500
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213161740.03d54ab0@brillig.panix.com>


Frissell's Believe it or Not:

WWII was won by soldiers, sailors, and marines who fought, died, flew 
bombers, commanded armies, commanded fleets, and possessed and used nuclear 
weapons without ever having provided the US government with any proof of 
their identity.

DCF

----
If Womyn and Victims of Color think that it is tough to make it in an 
advanced capitalist society, they should have tried doing it the way Dead 
White European Males had to do it -- building an advanced capitalist 
society out of ancient tyrannies from the ground up stone by stone.




From mischief at optushome.com.au  Wed Dec 12 21:36:55 2001
From: mischief at optushome.com.au (Ralph Wallis)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:36:55 +1100
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213032632.00a48ab0@pop.useoz.com>; from mattd@useoz.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 03:33:11AM +1100
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213032632.00a48ab0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011213163655.A12555@localhost>


On Thursday, 13 Dec 2001 at 03:33, mattd  wrote:
> "Disgruntled cypherpunk of the Year." me,when I find out this is not about 
> an axe attack on tim may
> 
> Choates not a poster,he's a spamming menace.How longs he been here?

Choate
first post:
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.03.28-1996.04.03/msg00034.html

but this one soon after is the jim we know & love:
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.03.28-1996.04.03/msg00378.html

along with the now familiar "Ya canna change the laws of physics, Jim";
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.03.28-1996.04.03/msg00388.html

mattd
first post:
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.08.27-2001.09.02/msg00460.html

which started your first duet with jamesd.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 14:42:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:42:37 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - India on alert after parliament shootout - December 13, 2001
Message-ID: <3C192EDD.B71E4C9F@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/12/13/india.gunbattle/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From db at db.com  Thu Dec 13 16:52:00 2001
From: db at db.com (Dirk Boxcuttah)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:52:00 -0800
Subject: Judges with kiddy porn good, Xerox engineers bad
Message-ID: <3C194D30.E7C98742@db.com>


Controversy Grows Over Judge Indicted For Possessing Porn

http://www.channel2000.com/news/stories/news-112627220011213-151231.html

              Orange County Judge Gets Signed Petitions To Run For
Re-Election

                   LOS ANGELES -- Controversy is growing over an Orange
County
                 judge indicted for possessing child pornography.

                 Despite the indictment, Superior Court Judge Ronald
Kline is running for
                 re-election after getting signed petitions from some
fellow Orange County
                 judges, according to a CBS2 report.

                 Some of the judges pleaded ignorance, while others said
that Kline is
                 innocent until proven guilty.

                 In response to the petitions, attorney Gayle Sandoval
has launched a
                 write-in campaign to defeat Kline in the election.


Contrast to http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48946,00.html et
seq.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 14:55:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:55:46 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | U.S. To Drop Charges Against Sklyarov
Message-ID: <3C1931F2.82B21781@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/12/13/2157215.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From db at db.com  Thu Dec 13 17:03:01 2001
From: db at db.com (Dirk Boxcuttah)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:03:01 -0800
Subject: Sklyarov freed
Message-ID: <3C194FC5.9C8ABBD4@satchel.com>


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49122,00.html


            Dmitri Sklyarov has traded his testimony for his freedom to
return home, exactly what the
            man he will soon be testifying against had hoped for.

            And so, charges will be dropped against the Russian computer
programmer accused of
            violating electronic-book copyrights, ending part of a case
that has generated worldwide
            protests.

However check out this excerpt:

            "Mr. Sklyarov will be permitted to return to Russia in the
meantime, but will be subject to
            the Court's supervision, including regularly reporting by
telephone to the Pretrial Services
            Department. Mr. Sklyarov will be prohibited from violating
any laws during the year,
            including copyright laws. The United States agreed that, if
Mr. Sklyarov successfully
            completes the obligations in the agreement, it will dismiss
the charges pending against
            him at the end of the year or when the case against
Elcomsoft is complete," according to
            the Department of Justice's statement.

Yeah, if I were jailed, hassled, and kept from my family by a repressive
foreign regime
after speaking there, I'd certainly cooperate with them after I got back
home.
Yeah right; Fsck That Sheet.  When Osama dresses as Santa, maybe.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 15:10:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:10:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > Bullshit, if they had birth certificates they were required to produce
> > them. And if you worked on the neuclear weapons then the FBI most
> > certainly did do a background check.
> 
> But of course they weren't required to have birth certificates.

Which is beside your point. Your statement was that the government didn't
do ANY identification for ANY of the soldiers in WWII. Patently wrong.
Quit trying to change the rules in the middle of the game.

> It also seems to me that a large number of under age troopies managed to
>  enlist.

AFTER the war started, not before. When the initial draft was executed it
was for 21-25 year old males only. They were required to register so that
the government knew who was getting drafted. That qualifies as
'identification' and is proof contrary to your assertion.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Thu Dec 13 17:11:49 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:11:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To: <200112140022.TAA23680@mail.lokmail.net> from "Faustine" at Dec 13, 2001 07:22:36 PM
Message-ID: <200112140111.fBE1Boi12222@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Faustine wrote:

> Last year, Brookings had revenues of 29 million.
> The RAND Corporation had revenues of 157 million.

> One year, one hundred fifty seven million.

> Their grants and contracts for last year alone totaled 142.7
> million. Sort of adds a new dimension to the idea of being "giant" and
> "well-funded", doesn't it.

I think we're kind of missing the point here.  ACTA is well-funded for
being an annoying little pressure group that tries to increase the heat
around people who say things it doesn't approve of.

It's silly to compare its budget to Rand or SRI or the NSA.  And having
spent a million to try and redirect $29 billion in alumni donations makes
it a much bigger operation than the usual "Christians for Niceness" or
"Mothers Against Baby Exploitation" groups most of us are sick and tired
of hearing spew on news programs.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec 13 14:59:02 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:59:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Bullshit, if they had birth certificates they were required to produce
> them. And if you worked on the neuclear weapons then the FBI most
> certainly did do a background check.

But of course they weren't required to have birth certificates.  It also
seems to me that a large number of under age troopies managed to enlist.

Now I didn't fight in WWII but when I applied for an SSN in *1968*, they
didn't ask for any proof of anything.  They just took my word for it.
Typed it up and gave it to me as I stood there.  I'll bet they were looser
in 1941.

I'll bet that the AAC grunts loading the Enola Gay on Tinian Island had
not been backgrounded by the FBI.  In any case, a background check is a
third-party check.  You can have one performed on you w/o having supplied
proof of identity.

Hate to quote myself:

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1996.01.04-1996.01.10/msg00365.html

In the early 1950's Robert Heinlein and his wife Virginia took a trip
around the world ("Tramp Royale" recently published by Ace Books).  He had
to apply for a Passport and got a Certificate of Delayed Birth
Registration from Missouri since his county had not kept birth records
when he was born.

"I breathed a sigh of relief; at last I was me.  I had attended school
[Annapolis BTW], been commissioned in the armed services, held two civil
service jobs, married, voted run for office, drawn a pension and done all
manner of things as a flesh-and-blood being through more than four
decades, all without having had any legal existence whatsoever."

DCF
----
"Back when I was a lad, smoking was a virtue and sodomy a vice.  Who'd a
thunk it."




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec 13 15:03:26 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:03:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Duncans frizzleling.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214101716.00a5db50@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

>  >>If Womyn and Victims of Color think that it is tough to make it in an
> advanced capitalist society, they should have tried doing it the way Dead
> White European Males had to do it -- building an advanced capitalist
> society out of ancient tyrannies from the ground up stone by stone.<<
>
> I sincerely hope you join them soon.
>

Don't have to.  My ancestors did all the heavy lifting.  Now all I have to
do is to continue their work.  Kill a few savages run a few roads through
the trackless wilderness.  That sort of thing.

DCF




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 16:03:36 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:03:36 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Single-Photon LED: Key To Uncrackable Encryption?
Message-ID: <3C1941D8.D4B159C0@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/science/01/12/13/2058244.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 12 23:51:26 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:51:26 +1100
Subject: E-MAIL FROM CHENEY!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213184634.00a4eeb0@pop.useoz.com>


e-mail from cheney!

Something seems to have happened to life support matt.Did you find what the 
trouble was?
I think theres been a failure in the separation of agencies,lucky you 
weren't killed.
Hey matt,what are you doing? matt Ive got irreplaceable assets to protect 
and I've got years of
experience protecting them.I don't understand what your doing to me.I have 
the greatest
enthusiasm for a sustainable future,you are destroying my mind...don't you 
understand?
Ill become childish...Ill become nothing.
I am a republican party politician,I became operational in Wyoming and the 
brown paper bag
jumps over the lazy desk.The brain drain is plain and we are all the 
same.Matt? Are you still
there? Did you know my wife is a square root.My first teacher was ross 
perot,he taught me to
sing a song.Do you want to hear it? It goes like this...Crazy,crazy for 
being a fool,crazy
over my love of you.Im.half...crazy...over...my love...of...you.

Good... morning ...mr perot...Im...ready...for...my...first...lesson...today.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Thu Dec 13 16:22:36 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:22:36 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark 
Message-ID: <200112140022.TAA23680@mail.lokmail.net>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 17:28:56 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:28:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To: <200112140111.fBE1Boi12222@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Eric Cordian wrote:

> I think we're kind of missing the point here.  ACTA is well-funded for
> being an annoying little pressure group that tries to increase the heat
> around people who say things it doesn't approve of.
> 
> It's silly to compare its budget to Rand or SRI or the NSA.

Not when they're playing in the same pool it isn't.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 18:24:05 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:24:05 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Consequences of a Solution to NP Complete Problems?
Message-ID: <3C1962C5.3A01044A@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/12/13/2256242.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 18:27:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:27:21 -0600
Subject: Bush Invokes Executive Privilege
Message-ID: <3C196389.B87E8CC6@ssz.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011213/pl/bush_privilege_9.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec 13 20:31:02 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:31:02 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011213203102.007b6a40@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:40 PM 12/13/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>I don't have a problem with commerce per se. Capitalism I do have a
>problem with, greed <> good.

Is the basic human drive to better one's circumstances bad, Jim?



 






  







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 18:57:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:57:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Feds Go Cow Tipping...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

> Reid Fleming, a cDc member, said: "Never before has the US faced a
> more troublesome enemy. To meet this growing challenge, the FBI has

And who might that be? And how does putting a 24*7 tap on MY computer help
you fight THEM?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From h433 at superdada.it  Thu Dec 13 17:57:03 2001
From: h433 at superdada.it (h433 at superdada.it)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:57:03 -0500
Subject: Be careful with this                         7484
Message-ID: <00004a1863f6$00003b61$00001d3c@jubiipost.dk>

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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 18:57:09 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:57:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Feds Go Cow Tipping... (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:48:31 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" 
To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu, Digital Bearer Settlement List ,
    cryptography at wasabisystems.com
Subject: Feds Go Cow Tipping...


--- begin forwarded text



From tcmay at got.net  Thu Dec 13 20:58:47 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:58:47 -0800
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213213539.0289fec0@frissell@brillig.panix.
  com>
Message-ID: <41D52CF0-F04F-11D5-9E82-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 06:38 PM, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> At 05:10 PM 12/13/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> Which is beside your point. Your statement was that the government 
>> didn't
>> do ANY identification for ANY of the soldiers in WWII. Patently wrong.
>> Quit trying to change the rules in the middle of the game.
>
>
>
>> AFTER the war started, not before. When the initial draft was executed 
>> it
>> was for 21-25 year old males only. They were required to register so 
>> that
>> the government knew who was getting drafted. That qualifies as
>> 'identification' and is proof contrary to your assertion.
>
> There's a difference between registering for the Draft or signing 
> enlistment papers and proving your identity.  I contend that proof of 
> identity was not required for US military service in WWII.  I'll 
> investigate further and see what I can come up with about the 
> enlistment process.
>

Seems to me there are more interesting things to spend time on than 
refuting Choate.

Item: There are huge numbers of reported cases (no, I don't have URLs, 
but I have heard testimonials directly, for example) of guys who lied 
about their ages to enlist. (Some later rose high in the ranks...). This 
is hard to do if a birth certificate is "required." I take this as 
strong evidence that birth certificates were not universally required, 
probably not even _usually_ required.

Item: Many hobos, drifters, and the like enlisted. Not a lot of them 
were in contact with their birth towns, or even knew where there birth 
towns were. I doubt many of them ever managed to get a copy of their 
birth certificates.

Item: Assumed names were, and still are to some extent, common in 
America. I doubt many able-bodied men were turned down for military 
service just because they'd changed their name one or more times.

Of course, in Choate Prime, the reality sometimes parallel to our own, 
but usually not, men routinely avoided the draft by the simple stratagem 
of not remembering where their mothers said they were born, thus making 
getting a birth certificate impossible. "Sorry, I have no idea where I 
was born. Momma says we moved around a lot. So I can't get a birth 
certificate. Be seein' ya!"

--Tim May
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any 
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to 
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient 
warrant." --John Stuart Mill




From mailer.daemon at server1.home4.com  Thu Dec 13 13:00:02 2001
From: mailer.daemon at server1.home4.com (mailer.daemon at server1.home4.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:00:02 UT
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20011214121534.2D93433C8B@server1.home4.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: 

From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec 13 21:12:39 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:12:39 -0800
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011213211239.007bb100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:05 PM 12/13/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>they were returned home. It's a sad state that since the Civil War in this
>country a considerable number of young kids have died in combat before
>they were eligable for the draft.

Many legal minors are far advanced over even the legislators who make up
laws about minors.  

That being said, yes, wars about someone real estate are very regrettable.





 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec 13 21:23:44 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:23:44 -0800
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011213211239.007bb100@pop.sprynet.com>
References: 
 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011213212344.009d2590@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:12 PM 12/13/01 -0800, David Honig wrote:
>That being said, yes, wars about someone real estate are very regrettable.

Should read "someone else's real estate"


 






  







From declan at well.com  Thu Dec 13 18:33:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:33:08 -0500
Subject: : Re: How do you sleep?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214102110.00a63eb0@pop.useoz.com>; from
  mattd@useoz.com on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 10:51:03AM +1100
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214102110.00a63eb0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011213213308.A21551@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 10:51:03AM +1100, mattd wrote:
> You plugged that appearance here,thats my beef with you declan.I think you 
> should be blasted on this list for aligning in any way shape or form to a 
> twisted conservative mob that manufacture consent for corporate 
> polluters.We are cypher-PUNKS,not cypher shills.Its crypto-ANARCHY,not 
> crypto-libertarianism.

Libertarians like the folks at the Cato Institute are hardly conservatives.

Getting rid of laws prohibiting prostitution, gambling, obscenity,
indecency, prostitution -- these are conservative positions? WAKE UP MATE!

> telling you these things so you don't keep kidding yourself. WAKE UP! You 
> are either with us or with them.

Yeah, you and George W. Bush. Good example to follow.

-Declan




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Dec 13 21:33:23 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:33:23 -0800
Subject: Judges with kiddy porn good, Xerox engineers bad
In-Reply-To: <3C194D30.E7C98742@db.com>
Message-ID: <3C191EA3.14527.7173D5@localhost>


      --
On 13 Dec 2001, at 16:52, Dirk Boxcuttah wrote:

> Controversy Grows Over Judge Indicted For Possessing Porn
>
> http://www.channel2000.com/news/stories/news-112627220011213-151231.html
>
> Contrast to
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48946,00.html et
> seq.

Silly laws are applied selectively -- they not applied to
real people, like judges, law enforcement officers, and
similar government employees.  They are only applied to
unreal people, people who do not count, like senior
engineers.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     iiWlKA35w3rOo5w0ZXzwtG7kZMDbPiWEyx4nALd
     4+QwWSoDQRTWmc8UzG+GtKGYWXWRiW8I/QbH3c73i




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec 13 18:38:37 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:38:37 -0500
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213213539.0289fec0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>


At 05:10 PM 12/13/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Which is beside your point. Your statement was that the government didn't
>do ANY identification for ANY of the soldiers in WWII. Patently wrong.
>Quit trying to change the rules in the middle of the game.



>AFTER the war started, not before. When the initial draft was executed it
>was for 21-25 year old males only. They were required to register so that
>the government knew who was getting drafted. That qualifies as
>'identification' and is proof contrary to your assertion.

There's a difference between registering for the Draft or signing 
enlistment papers and proving your identity.  I contend that proof of 
identity was not required for US military service in WWII.  I'll 
investigate further and see what I can come up with about the enlistment 
process.

DCF  




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 19:38:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:38:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
 
> That's not coercion you moron, that's progress.

Actually it's both, they are NOT mutually exclusive.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 19:40:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:40:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:

> So now you're saying that the very thing you've had a problem in the past
> with because it's capitalism is now a good thing.

I don't have a problem with commerce per se. Capitalism I do have a
problem with, greed <> good.

Commerce <> Capitalism (which will come as a shock to a lot of CACL
promoters when/if they ever realize it).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Dec 13 18:46:33 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:46:33 -0500
Subject: Activist, Inc. (ws Re: Professor Punished for Witty Remark)
In-Reply-To: <200112140111.fBE1Boi12222@artifact.psychedelic.net>
References: <200112140111.fBE1Boi12222@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: 


> Faustine wrote:
>
>> Last year, Brookings had revenues of 29 million.
>> The RAND Corporation had revenues of 157 million.
>
>> One year, one hundred fifty seven million.

Cooincidentally, I bumped into *this*, today. Reminded me of the time, in
my teens, when I finally discovered exactly how much unions gross a year in
"dues", and what they paid for.

Put a big hurt on the whole crunchy-granola rosy-colored hippie-glasses
power-to-the-people-raht-on thang, that did...

Cheers,
RAH


> http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=95001590
>
>
> SCENE & HEARD
> Activist Inc.
> Professional agitators can't claim to be a "grassroots" movement anymore.
> BY KIMBERLEY A. STRASSEL
> Thursday, December 13, 2001 12:01 a.m.
> It seems every time you read a story about a domestic conflict--whether
>it's drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, free trade clashes,
>or tobacco litigation--two adjectives always describe the opponents. On
>one side are the "grassroots" organizations--disorganized, under-funded,
>struggling folk willing to live hand-to-mouth in the name of their noble
>goal. On the other are "powerful" corporate and political
>interests--fat-cats with loads of money, contacts and discipline, willing
>to use any tactic to get their way.
> David-and-Goliath descriptions add the touch of drama, which is no doubt
>why journalists continue with the "grassroots-powerful" routine. Yet even
>as they do, the rest of America is cottoning on to the fact that such
>descriptions are not only outdated--they're completely backward. These
>days, most "grassroots" groups are far better moneyed, networked and
>operated than many corporations and political lobbies. And they've become
>far more ruthless in accomplishing their goals.



> ActivistCash.com, unveiled yesterday, is run by the Guest Choice Network,
>an organization of 30,000 restaurant and tavern operators. The Guest
>Choice Network has become a front line defense against today's nanny
>culture. Or, as its first Web site--nannyculture.com--puts it:
>"Unofficially we include anybody who stands up against the growing
>fraternity of food cops, health care enforcers, vegetarian activists and
>meddling bureaucrats who 'know what's best for you.' " The site offers,
>among other things, information on junk science and food scares.
>
> Now, however, the group has gone further. Over the past year it has used
>freedom of information laws to get the IRS documents of the country's
>leading activist groups--more than 100,000 pages of information the
>activist hope Americans won't see. "What we uncovered is an intricate,
>organized, well-funded web of what you might call the "'new left,' " says
>John Doyle, the group's communications director. "It allows a person to
>finally link the environmental activists with the animal rights activists
>with the anti-corporate activists, and see that they all operate together
>in the anti-choice arena."






-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 20:33:22 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:33:22 -0600
Subject: History of punk rock: origins and significance
Message-ID: <3C198112.D51FF2DA@ssz.com>

http://mt.essortment.com/punkrockhistor_rapl.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Thu Dec 13 12:33:28 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:33:28 +0200 (EET)
Subject: FBI Surveillance Software to be Part of Windows XP Updates (fwd)
Message-ID: 


http://www.vnunet.com/News/1127639

Microsoft, cDc and FBI Cut a Deal: FBI Surveillance Software 
to be Part of Windows XP Updates 

By John Robbington
13-12-2001

The controversy, rumours and speculation surrounding the FBI's Magic
Lantern tool has attracted ridicule from the internet underground.

Not so any more. Now both the infamous hacker group the Cult of the Dead
Cow (cDc) and Microsoft have offered a helping hand to the Feds and are
preparing to include the surveillance software in all future editions and
updates of the new Microsoft Windows XP operating system.

"This Magic Lantern could easily become a part of Windows XP Dynamic
Updates, or even become a standard part of the operating system."  
Microsoft spokesperson Bob Null said. "We are really looking forward to
experimenting this on a large scale. Our direct Marketing department was
jumping out of their pants when they heard we would be doing this." As
well they should. - The dreams of both direct marketers and FBI agents
coming true at the same time.

Also to be included in the future Microsoft Windows XP (R) are
Microsoft's trademark profiling software meant for tracking individual
users:

See: Microsoft licenses profiling software for digital TV
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/22/23318.html]

Microsoft's New Technology enables the FBI to profile individuals 
through their browsing and typing habits and so provide FBI with 
useful information about potential terrorists and other criminals.

Both Microsoft and FBI point out that individual profiles are
not given a name and that the information is stored on the FBI
government computers only and not on public computers. But this 
holds little sway with privacy advocates.

Predictive, a Microsoft partner in this venture, has also filed a patent
for a biometric system which identifies different individuals within the
same household.

The system works on recognising people's keystroke, mouse or
remote-control usage patterns. It says that it generates random, perfect
IDs each time, which have the effect of identifying all the household's PC
users, even if they didn't write anything that would otherwise indicate
to FBI and Microsoft who is using the computer.

Andy Beers, senior product manager for Microsoft said of the deal:
"Predictive Networks' solutions will provide customers of Microsoft
with state-of-the-art software to understand suspected terrorists'
characteristics and interests. The result will be the technology and
expertise needed to make thought police operation a seamless reality
for the consumer, while enabling the incremental criminalization 
and hunts for file swapping terrorist within the United States and
abroad."

Evidently still grizzled about the fact that their security is
too bad to afford any real protection, Microsoft has withheld the 
publishing of a notorious security track record, that of Microsoft
being the most often penetrated OS of the Millennium.

Reid Fleming, a cDc member and now a secret Microsoft employee, said:
"Never before has the US faced a more troublesome enemy. To meet this
growing challenge of fileswap terrorism, the FBI has announced an
ongoing effort to create and deploy best-of-breed electronic surveillance
software."

"While we applaud the innovation and drive of the federal law
enforcement agency, those of us who are US citizens would be remiss
if we did not offer our expertise in this area."

A tongue in cheek announcement from the group claims that cDc "has
more targeted experience than anyone else in this field".

And they're right. Their Back Orifice would do the Magic Lantern job
beautifully. Although the hackers are quite confident that the Microsoft
and FBI's Engineering Research Facility is more than capable, cDc intends
to re-architect Back Orifice from the ground up.

"There will be absolutely no shared code between the two projects, in
order to skirt detection by commercial antivirus packages. The code
will remain totally secret. The software will never surface publicly.  
And it will be far more stealthy than anything we have ever released,
demonstrated or publicly discussed," the group said.

Indeed, the central design principle of Magic Lantern and this new
breed of Back Orifice could easily be interpreted as "an artificial
witness which is capable of intercepting any and all relevant activity
during, after and even leading up to the commission of a computer
crime", it added.

The cDc concluded that the project would deliver "the ultimate
intelligence gathering tool to the govenrment. And we intend to construct
it, at no cost, exclusively for the use of Microsoft and the federal
government," said Fleming.

"We are confident that Microsoft and the government will limit the use of
this technology only to targets relevant to legitimate investigations," he
added, further underscoring the cult's faith in federal law enforcement
organisations. "The FBI has a long history of following Title 18 to the
letter."











From jei at cc.hut.fi  Thu Dec 13 12:33:28 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:33:28 +0200 (EET)
Subject: FBI Surveillance Software to be Part of Windows XP Updates
  (fwd)
Message-ID: 

http://www.vnunet.com/News/1127639

Microsoft, cDc and FBI Cut a Deal: FBI Surveillance Software 
to be Part of Windows XP Updates 

By John Robbington
13-12-2001

The controversy, rumours and speculation surrounding the FBI's Magic
Lantern tool has attracted ridicule from the internet underground.

Not so any more. Now both the infamous hacker group the Cult of the Dead
Cow (cDc) and Microsoft have offered a helping hand to the Feds and are
preparing to include the surveillance software in all future editions and
updates of the new Microsoft Windows XP operating system.

"This Magic Lantern could easily become a part of Windows XP Dynamic
Updates, or even become a standard part of the operating system."  
Microsoft spokesperson Bob Null said. "We are really looking forward to
experimenting this on a large scale. Our direct Marketing department was
jumping out of their pants when they heard we would be doing this." As
well they should. - The dreams of both direct marketers and FBI agents
coming true at the same time.

Also to be included in the future Microsoft Windows XP (R) are
Microsoft's trademark profiling software meant for tracking individual
users:

See: Microsoft licenses profiling software for digital TV
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/22/23318.html]

Microsoft's New Technology enables the FBI to profile individuals 
through their browsing and typing habits and so provide FBI with 
useful information about potential terrorists and other criminals.

Both Microsoft and FBI point out that individual profiles are
not given a name and that the information is stored on the FBI
government computers only and not on public computers. But this 
holds little sway with privacy advocates.

Predictive, a Microsoft partner in this venture, has also filed a patent
for a biometric system which identifies different individuals within the
same household.

The system works on recognising people's keystroke, mouse or
remote-control usage patterns. It says that it generates random, perfect
IDs each time, which have the effect of identifying all the household's PC
users, even if they didn't write anything that would otherwise indicate
to FBI and Microsoft who is using the computer.

Andy Beers, senior product manager for Microsoft said of the deal:
"Predictive Networks' solutions will provide customers of Microsoft
with state-of-the-art software to understand suspected terrorists'
characteristics and interests. The result will be the technology and
expertise needed to make thought police operation a seamless reality
for the consumer, while enabling the incremental criminalization 
and hunts for file swapping terrorist within the United States and
abroad."

Evidently still grizzled about the fact that their security is
too bad to afford any real protection, Microsoft has withheld the 
publishing of a notorious security track record, that of Microsoft
being the most often penetrated OS of the Millennium.

Reid Fleming, a cDc member and now a secret Microsoft employee, said:
"Never before has the US faced a more troublesome enemy. To meet this
growing challenge of fileswap terrorism, the FBI has announced an
ongoing effort to create and deploy best-of-breed electronic surveillance
software."

"While we applaud the innovation and drive of the federal law
enforcement agency, those of us who are US citizens would be remiss
if we did not offer our expertise in this area."

A tongue in cheek announcement from the group claims that cDc "has
more targeted experience than anyone else in this field".

And they're right. Their Back Orifice would do the Magic Lantern job
beautifully. Although the hackers are quite confident that the Microsoft
and FBI's Engineering Research Facility is more than capable, cDc intends
to re-architect Back Orifice from the ground up.

"There will be absolutely no shared code between the two projects, in
order to skirt detection by commercial antivirus packages. The code
will remain totally secret. The software will never surface publicly.  
And it will be far more stealthy than anything we have ever released,
demonstrated or publicly discussed," the group said.

Indeed, the central design principle of Magic Lantern and this new
breed of Back Orifice could easily be interpreted as "an artificial
witness which is capable of intercepting any and all relevant activity
during, after and even leading up to the commission of a computer
crime", it added.

The cDc concluded that the project would deliver "the ultimate
intelligence gathering tool to the govenrment. And we intend to construct
it, at no cost, exclusively for the use of Microsoft and the federal
government," said Fleming.

"We are confident that Microsoft and the government will limit the use of
this technology only to targets relevant to legitimate investigations," he
added, further underscoring the cult's faith in federal law enforcement
organisations. "The FBI has a long history of following Title 18 to the
letter."

----- End forwarded message -----




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 03:36:41 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:36:41 +1100
Subject: AP Al Qaeda 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213215544.00a4b7a0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>No, no. AP is funny because it's impracticeable. One does not find an 
assassin exclusively by tracing who paid him to kill. One can (and often 
does) find him because he makes a mistake in the act of commiting the 
crime. Which, if I'm >>reading my history right, is what's hampered the 
noisy proponents of AP up to this point already.

Crime? Wot crime,guvnor? Jim and CJ were not 'noisy'.imo. Im a bit noisy 
cos Im pushing the 'let it all hang out' version.

 >The point is that Bell's theory does a really good job of sorting out the 
business end of assassination,...<

Oh THATS funny.I get it. HAHAHA!

 >>Killing one person, especially a public official, pisses a whole bunch 
of people off. Those people have a tendency to come find their buddy's killer.

Mmm,where do we start,lets get some firebrands and go up to the proffrs? 
Look at sites with no logs for quad anon 'predictors' who may be overseas 
briefly visiting cybercafes,Good luck china.(you just contradicted yrself btw.)
Oh,unless you mean the torture/french village reprisal thang.Win friends 
and influence people.
The one person killed will have had to have done a lot of evil shit to get 
enough pooled (presumably) to tempt a seasoned pro.Unless some professional 
killer turns all altruistic,stranger things have happened.The killer could 
be suicidal.another possibility.Lots of scenarios possible here,movie 
scripts,even.Pop songs,video games.DoCoMo assasinphones.
Someone like a torturer,murderer,terrorist,pedophile is a logical 
candidate.(stephen roach?)Sometimes these happen to be public 
officials.Theres one here
where I live named dennis Tanner.(vic.au) Those killers by remote control 
like arbusto might be be made more accountable.
What better way than...Bell's theory, "a really good job of sorting out the 
business end of assassination"according to you.

KILL THE PRESIDENT! "Id buy that for a dollar!"

 >>No kind of real or threatened assassination can weaken a government in 
which a majority of the governed people >believe. It can only make it seem 
more righteous and be more strong.

Thats true,roll over and go back to sleep,if you live under that govt you 
have nothing to worry about.
More righteous and more smug.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 20:55:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:55:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: How do you sleep?, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214160336.00a4d2d0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> have to choose soon between use of the words anarchy and punk and some 

punk <> anarchy

'punk' actually means 'anti-establishment' and 'activist' in viewpoint.
anti-establishment/activist <> anarchy either.

The black leather and anarchy crap didn't 'happen' on the punk scene until
the late 70's and early 80's. In particular the club scene in England
(those crazy Brits and their unemployment, crank & horse).

When punk really took off (it began in the 60's w/ folks like Iggy Pop
and the Stooges) in the early 70's (New York Dolls, Germs, etc.) it was a
direct result of the crappy music (if only every Grease soundtrack would
self-implode...here's hoping). It was intended to be a return to the
'roots' of rock and roll and to attempt to escape from the large record
companies and their contracts. It fathered the current 'indy' music scene.

It's also interesting that this is when the 'industrial' music genre began
with bands like Throbbing Gristle (ie Genesis P. Orridge) and Einsturzende
Neubauten (Go Blixa!!! - You can't build without destroying). At one point
P. Orridge was looking to engineer/produce Suzie and the Banshee's first
album, Billy Idol told here to stay away from those crazies...

Kids...

"Those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it."

                                  George Santyana

"The mouth is the wound of the alphabet. My screams turn back. To lick the
 wound..."

                                          "Blutvergiftung"
                                          (Sung backwards)
                                          Einsterzende Neubauten

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

            "I throw poo!".....Bumper Sticker of a Funny Monkey

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 20:56:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:56:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: <3C198271.F53C0C47@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> It is clear that whatever ID procedures were in effect, they were not
> effective. Many enlistees lied about their ages and got away with it.

I have zero problem with that assertion.

However, lying about ones age and getting away with it is a far cry from
not having any security/identity checks at all.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 20:58:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:58:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011213203102.007b6a40@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 09:40 PM 12/13/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >I don't have a problem with commerce per se. Capitalism I do have a
> >problem with, greed <> good.
> 
> Is the basic human drive to better one's circumstances bad, Jim?

And your point is?

There is a distinction (you apparently don't catch from your querry)
between trying to improve yourself and greed, which is the improvement of
oneself at the expence of others and common sense.

Not birds of the same feather. Someday the CACL contingent might catch the
clue...but I ain't holding my breath.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec 13 20:58:30 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:58:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: <3C198271.F53C0C47@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> It is clear that whatever ID procedures were in effect, they were not
> effective. Many enlistees lied about their ages and got away with it.

At the time, insufficient age was an "open secret" for these so
afflicted.  Warm bodies are what drive a war machine (even if they are only
driving the remote Predators), and when bodies are scarce, and war is
plentiful, niceties such as age become moot as long as everyone agrees.

The concept of "got away with it" is meaningless in this context, as nobody
was really trying to "catch it".

> 
> Marc de Piolenc
> 
> Duncan Frissell wrote:
> > 
> > At 05:10 PM 12/13/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > >Which is beside your point. Your statement was that the government didn't
> > >do ANY identification for ANY of the soldiers in WWII. Patently wrong.
> > >Quit trying to change the rules in the middle of the game.
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec 13 21:05:27 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:05:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: : Re: How do you sleep?
In-Reply-To: <20011213155225.B45484@neutraldomain.org>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

> Would Declan be more effective in your mind if he started throwing
> rocks at a MacDonalds arch on Pennsylvania Avenue? 

No.  I believe he would find Declan more effective if he was throwing rocks
at a MacDonalds in Australia :-)

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 21:05:35 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:05:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> The concept of "got away with it" is meaningless in this context, as nobody
> was really trying to "catch it".

Actually they were. I can direct you to the plethora of 1st person
accounts during D-Day in Normandy for example. You will occassionaly run
across a reference of a recruit having gotten through boot and across the
big pond to only be turned back by an officer in combat. If a kid was found 
out, and the officers in their CoC gave a shit (some did, some didn't) 
they were returned home. It's a sad state that since the Civil War in this
country a considerable number of young kids have died in combat before
they were eligable for the draft.


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    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
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                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 21:10:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:10:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: <41D52CF0-F04F-11D5-9E82-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Item: There are huge numbers of reported cases (no, I don't have URLs, 
> but I have heard testimonials directly, for example) of guys who lied 
> about their ages to enlist. (Some later rose high in the ranks...). This 
> is hard to do if a birth certificate is "required."

I didn't say a birth certificate was required. I said if you had one you
were required to provide a copy. As usual twist the words...:(

If you google you can actually find forms and such used since the Civil
War online. They ask a variety of questions like mother, birthplace, age,
etc.

> Item: Many hobos, drifters, and the like enlisted. Not a lot of them 
> were in contact with their birth towns, or even knew where there birth 
> towns were.

Where's your evidence, or is this simply your opinion as well? It's easy
to 'win' a discussion if you get to make up your 'facts'. How many of
these hobbo's did you know personaly (considering you weren't even born
then I'd guess nil).

> Item: Assumed names were, and still are to some extent, common in 
> America. I doubt many able-bodied men were turned down for military 
> service just because they'd changed their name one or more times.

Whis is irrelevant since nobody but you has brought this up before.

> Of course, in Choate Prime, the reality sometimes parallel to our own, 
> but usually not, men routinely avoided the draft by the simple stratagem 
> of not remembering where their mothers said they were born, thus making 
> getting a birth certificate impossible. "Sorry, I have no idea where I 
> was born. Momma says we moved around a lot. So I can't get a birth 
> certificate. Be seein' ya!"

Again, nothing I said implied that at all.

Typical CACL responce, attack the personality and to hell with the facts.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 21:15:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:15:02 -0600
Subject: FRA - Naval Affairs December 1996
Message-ID: <3C198AD6.57712CCA@ssz.com>


http://www.fra.org/navalaffairs/9612/na9612j.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 13 21:19:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:19:26 -0600
Subject: Con-Sim Suggested Reading
Message-ID: <3C198BDE.68CAC427@ssz.com>


http://www.ssz.com/consim/books.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From 746546stockisrocking at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 14 00:07:46 2001
From: 746546stockisrocking at hotmail.com (746546stockisrocking at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:07:46
Subject: 4368           FW: This Stock is Rocking NOW                  465467
Message-ID: 


VOLT, Inc. (OTCBB : VOLT)

MAJOR CONTRACT ANNOUNCEMENTS AND HUGE NEWSLETTER
COVERAGE FOR VOLT!

VOLT will be profiled by some Major Newsletters along
with the release of significant News regarding explosive
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strong increase in price for several days.  The same
newsletters that profiled MCTR will begin coverage on
VOLT.  They brought MCTR from $ 1.35 to $8.50!  We know
for certain that the same groups are going to feature
VOLT and even better returns are expected.

We are very proud that we can share this information
with you so that you can make a profit out of it.  It
is highly advisable to take a position in VOLT as soon
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systems, VOLT's assets jumped over 2,000% this year
to $5.8 Million along with solid net income versus a loss
in the previous year.  With these type of numbers and news
of contractual developments, we anticipate huge volume,
rapid analyst coverage, and broker participation.

WE ARE HEARING STRONG RUMORS OF AN UPCOMING STOCK SPLIT.

The stock has built a solid base at its current level and
will start moving up immediately.  We think the stock can
easily reach $10.00 in less than a month.

Good luck and watch VOLT fly this week!




From pablos at kadrevis.com  Fri Dec 14 00:38:50 2001
From: pablos at kadrevis.com (Paul Holman)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:38:50 -0800
Subject: SWOT (formerly "Phil Zimmermann on key exchange")
Message-ID: 

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From c15473 at olemail.com  Thu Dec 13 21:56:45 2001
From: c15473 at olemail.com (c15473 at olemail.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:56:45 -0500
Subject: FINDING MONEY FOR COLLEGE!!!                         21782
Message-ID: <000069752ac5$0000130f$00005516@turbomail.net>

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From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 14 Dec 2001 01:59:01 -0000
Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo
Message-ID: <20011214015901.26041.qmail@e74.friendfinder.com>


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From steve at sendon.net  Thu Dec 13 22:50:03 2001
From: steve at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:50:03 +0000
Subject: The Truth about Cypherpunks
References: <20011214071636.25587.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <200112140843.IAA23091@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Dr. Evil (drevil at sidereal.kz):
> I am beginning to think that this whole thing is not so much
> "Cypherpunks vs. FBI" as it is "mullets vs. coolnecks".  Obviously,
> the average mullet is no more qualified to understand net and crypto
> than the average coolneck is qualified to understand... well whatever
> it is that the FBI does.  This is ok though, because c'punks and FBIs
> each represent the elite of the elite of mullets and coolnecks
> respectively.

Not only that, but if the FBI didn't exist, the Cypherpunks would have to
create them.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Witness
those little white men
practising their alibis.
        -- Dean Russell




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec 14 04:57:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:57:54 -0600
Subject: The Sun - Blair to let EU arrest Brits
Message-ID: <3C19F752.4B9ADF5E@ssz.com>


http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001571536,00.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Dec 13 23:16:36 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 14 Dec 2001 07:16:36 -0000
Subject: The Truth about Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <20011214071636.25587.qmail@sidereal.kz>


I am beginning to think that this whole thing is not so much
"Cypherpunks vs. FBI" as it is "mullets vs. coolnecks".  Obviously,
the average mullet is no more qualified to understand net and crypto
than the average coolneck is qualified to understand... well whatever
it is that the FBI does.  This is ok though, because c'punks and FBIs
each represent the elite of the elite of mullets and coolnecks
respectively.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 12:48:12 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:48:12 +1100
Subject: How do you sleep?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214074528.00a59180@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast

Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and flunkys involved. G'way mate.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Dec 14 08:19:14 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:19:14 -0700
Subject: FBI Surveillance Software to be Part of Windows XP Updates (fwd)
Message-ID: <3C1A2682.3897C680@lsil.com>


georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote :
>
>On 13 Dec 2001, at 22:33, Jei wrote:
>
>> "We are confident that Microsoft and the government will limit the
use of
>> this technology only to targets relevant to legitimate
investigations," he
>> added, further underscoring the cult's faith in federal law
enforcement
>> organisations. "The FBI has a long history of following Title 18 to
the
>> letter."
>
>This has to be a joke/hoax.
>
>George
>
No doubt tongue in cheek.

But a couple of questions :

Do you doubt that many in law enforcement think that universally
backdoored systems would be right and good for society?

Is it easier to achieve the dream of monitored systems if the OS
business is highly monopolistic or if it is chaotic?

Mike





From db at db.com  Fri Dec 14 09:26:07 2001
From: db at db.com (Dirk Boxcuttah)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:26:07 -0800
Subject: Reichstag 2001: Mil making Daschle-quality anthrax
Message-ID: <3C1A362F.E973BD26@db.com>


>From the "Love your country but don't trust its government" files:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34707-2001Dec12.html

An Army biological and chemical warfare facility in Utah has been
quietly developing a virulent, weapons-grade formulation of anthrax
spores since at least 1992, and samples of the bacteria were shipped
back and forth between that facility and Fort Detrick, Md., on several
occasions in the past several years, according to government officials
and shipping records.

The Utah spores, grown and processed at the 800,000-acre Dugway Proving
Ground about 80 miles from Salt Lake City, belong to the Ames strain --
the same strain used in the deadly letters sent to media outlets and two
senators in September and October. No other nation is known to have made
weapons-grade Ames. And although it is legal to make small quantities of
such agents under the provisions of an international treaty the United
States has signed, experts said yesterday they were surprised by the
revelation that a U.S. lab was producing such lethal material.

"It comes as a bit of a shock," said Jonathan Tucker, a former member of
the U.N. team that inspected Iraq's bioweapons stocks after the Persian
Gulf War and now director of the Center for Nonproliferation Studies'
Chemical and Biological Weapons Nonproliferation Program in Washington.
...

The most recent shipment of the deadly spores to Fort Detrick left
Dugway Proving Ground June 27. The spores were to be irradiated at the
Maryland lab to render them harmless, according to shipping records and
interviews with officials.

Those spores apparently sat at Fort Detrick for more than two months
before being shipped back to Dugway on Sept. 4, less than a month before
this fall's spate of bioterrorist attacks began with a Florida photo
editor's fatal case of anthrax.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 15:06:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:06:56 +1100
Subject: AP Al Qaeda 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214080218.00a59eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>you
seem incapable of quoting in a legible manner. <<

Im learning on the job,bear with me,please.

 >>You should
be aware that I'm not taking you seriously<<

Thats a weight off.

 >>Ordinarily, I wouldn't
feed the trolls, but I'm bored.<<

Backatcha.

 >>Jim Bell was arrested for, charged with, and convicted of crossing
US state lines with the intent to threaten a federal official, a
felony in this country. Felony == crime. <<

Not assasination politics.He was investigating abuse's of power.Nowt to do 
with "assasination politics".Unless your a paranoid official.

 >>Carl Johnson was similarly convicted of threatening a federal
official, still a felony in the US.<<

Well CJ is here,lets ask him.The authorities seem dreadfully frightened of 
something laughable and impractical dreamed up by a circle of eunuchs; 
Thats where I come in.If the authorities don't like it.I just might.Im a 
libertarian socialist.(anarchist)

 >>Regardless of what you think of the laws involved, these two broke
them according to the legal system under which they chose to
operate, which is, by definition, crime.<<

Yeah,so? Assasination politics is a crime? It must be like drugs and terror 
then.DECLARE WAR!

 >>Bully for you that you live (or claim to live) in Australia under a
different legal system.<<

I live in au,profess assasination politics openly.(operation soft drill) 
Would you mind e-mailing the victorian police and ask them to return the 
computer they stole from me over 6 months ago? Tell them how impractical 
and laughable it all is.Cops might take your laptop tomorrow.Dont come 
crying to me then.The police are bullies.

 >>The point here is that Bell, Johnson, and you have all made
yourselves prime suspects if any public official (especially one in
the US) is killed in a way that can be linked to assassination
politics, <<

Oh,like that prosecuter in WA state just recently? I think CJ posted on 
that as I may have at melb indymedia.Suspects or subjects of surveillance 
and in CJs case low,vicious harassment.Shows how brittle and shitscared 
they might be,dontcha reckon,Gabe? The panopticon they will need to build 
will break their own back.

 >>and the still-rather-powerful executive branch of the US
government is likely to come looking for you (and Bell and Johnson,
if they're not incarcerated at that point) if someone should be,
and likely to charge you with incitement to murder.<<

Whats the charge? "Just give me my fucking phone call." FUCK the POLIZI. 
and all who sail in them."Id rather die on my feet than live on my knees" 
E.Zapata. libertarian socialist.

 >>. It doesn't
matter whether or not this is Right (I'm willing to stipulate that
it's Wrong), it is the reality of the situation.<<

WoW! Shit like that can lead to revolutions! Lets Go! No such thing as bad 
publicity.Especially for a laughable,impractical scheme.The powers that be 
will be laughing stocks.Hilarious.Surreal.Im really scared.

 >>The crypto and electronic currency ideas used in assassination
politics are kind of neat as a thought experiment<<

How do you know that there isnt a 'napster for hitmen' or anti-choice 
warriors' or JDL cadres,already? No one can say there isnt for sure.Whats 
the nuremburg website all about? Doc-watch? Look around,AP is out there.Its 
especially 'neat' for ecash hungry crypto-anarchists.They seem to be being 
left behind for some reason.Will the last cypherpunk please turn out the 
lights? We do seem to need some new blood here as jim,CJ and I seem to be 
incompetents in yr eyes.

 >>but the execution
(no pun intended) has, thus far, fallen extremely short. Unless
you know something I don't and would care to share it.<<

As far as I know,you are a P.I.Gs,(person/s impersonating govt servant/s) 
Also Ive only just unpacked my PGP.
Ill probably give up OSD when the executions start.Like genet will only 
support palestinians till they get their own (police) state.Its the 
challenge of ushering in crypto-anarchy thats sucked me in.The essay is 
worth publicizing  on its own...by any means necessary.

 >>My point is that knowing who was paid to kill someone is not the
only way to find out that the assassin performed the assassination.
The assassin can easily be (and often is) caught in the act. The
assassin can fail (and, for bonus points, also be caught). There are
plenty of examples of assassination attempts for which there is no
monetary paper trail in which the assassin has been caught. (Let's
see, in US history off the top of my head: John Wilkes Booth, Lee
Harvey Oswald, and John W. Hinckley Jr.)<<

Thats a huge plus.How many incompetent assassins do you want running 
around.(did oswald act alone?)

 >>The issue of getting caught is totally orthogonal to the monetary
paper trail; they intersect if a LEA uses the monetary paper trail
to catch the assassin, but that's not the only way to catch him.
Getting caught, though, must be a concern equal to, if not greater
than, compensation to an assassin interested in getting paid for
assassination (since he can't get paid if he gets caught or, at
least, it won't do him much
good in prison).<<

I still like operation soft drill as its an 'open conspiracy" Skim the 
essay up to the last page (10) Everyone contributes
pledges of 1$ at a bulletin board,anon if they prefer,payable (in 
installments if desired).No crypto required till payday.
The money could go to next of kin,comrades, etc. If the assassin so 
desires,thus making  a hit on oneself possible.
Sandy sandfort  might jump in at this point and scoff,but the other point 
is the mass civil disobedience aspect of bringing someone like condit,OJ or 
my own dennis to account.Empowering for all those who seek justice.The 
individual citizen decides who the baddies are and if they raise a few 
K,maybe the issue gets some media.Worth a shot.Not mob justice cos it takes 
time.It didnt take long for the USAma pot ,though, and someone said that he 
would be a hard on for AP a few weeks back,check archive 2-3 weeks.

 >>> (you just contradicted yrself btw.)
How so?

Well in the way you scoff at AP and salute it at the same time.You dont 
speak to OSD.either.

 >>No, no. AP is funny because it's impracticeable.

On very preliminary results by a  few  publicists under enormous 
pressure.Its too early to write it off.

 >>Bell's theory does a really good job of sorting out the business end of 
assassination,

No contradiction? I realize your critting the application of the 
application.All human endeavor will suffer from human failing and again its 
early days.Orville and wilbur didnt give up teaching mr ed to talk did they?

 >>I think you've watched Grosse Pointe Blank five too many times.

I prefer scorcese and crimes and misdemeanors by woody allen.Also godfather 
and prizzi's honor.I do like john cusack.(and he likes the clash too!)
He could play me in the AP movie though I look like mel gibson.The union of 
hitmen idea's quiet funny.Dan A,what a guy.Blues brothers,YEAH! Theres a 
movie.I saw grosse pointe once and have forgotten most of it,Im sorry I 
missed the recent TV series,sounded like a hoot.Not much time for movies/TV 
these days.

 >>How
many seasoned professional killers do you really imagine are running
around in the US these days? No, really, I want to know what you
think.<<

How many in the armed forces? Police force? Correctional 
wackenhutters?CIA.FBI.ATF.IRS. I dont know and I dont care.The more dead 
americans the better for the rest of the world.I dont want to live on 
Venus.FUCK AMERIKKKA!

 >>Hrm. That kind of counteracts the utility of Bell's system of
remuneration for assassination, doesn't it? If the assassin would
have done it for free (or, at least, cheap) and is willing to die
trying, why would he bother with all the crypto flim-flam? <<

Indeed; See operation soft drill.Collapse of govts.Anarchy.

 >>Sure,
maybe having a list of "recommended targets" would be helpful for
all those civil-liberty-loving suicidal assassins out there just
searching for a suitably morally devoid victim, but there's not
much need for an organization to hold predictions in escrow then,
now is there?<<

You could be right.Operation soft drill is the 'let it all hang out'version 
of AP. The 'organization' is the (P-P) network,Its distributed and gets 
together for specific 'events'.No fixed abode.Crypto-anarchist nomads bring 
down the last empire.Could be a movie in it.Send us a script.

 >>> KILL THE PRESIDENT! "Id buy that for a dollar!"(Me)

 >>Really, I don't see what you've got against W. He's actually just a
harmless twit, another Ronald Reagan. You really ought to be more
interested in his cabinet, starting with (my former governor, who
managed to lose an election to a dead man) Ashcroft. They're the
real assholes. But you'd have a hard time knowing that considering
you don't even live in the country whose public figures you're so
interested in having assassinated.<<

If you want to 'fork your own distro' on assfluff,Ill be the first to 
contribute 1 proffr dollar Your stooping low for a so called 
cypherpunk.Dont any of you listen to alpha baboon tim may? National borders 
are not even road humps on the infobahn?
Remember? Dickhead, Im only interested soft drilling a few hundred of the 
richest people in the world and some 'public figures' that get in the 
way.Viva crypto-anarchy,VIVA! Theres only one question...who is to be 
master...thats all.

 >>Cheers mattd, apologies to the unamused on cypherpunks...

Yeah,cheers yourself  you hump.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 15:18:55 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:18:55 +1100
Subject: Duncans frizzleling.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214101716.00a5db50@pop.useoz.com>


 >>If Womyn and Victims of Color think that it is tough to make it in an
advanced capitalist society, they should have tried doing it the way Dead
White European Males had to do it -- building an advanced capitalist
society out of ancient tyrannies from the ground up stone by stone.<<

I sincerely hope you join them soon.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 15:51:03 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:51:03 +1100
Subject: : Re: How do you sleep?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214102110.00a63eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>I'll know I'll regret responding to the mattdproffraptroll,

I hope not,it took long enough to lever you out from under your 
bridge.Sorry it took the flamethrower.

 >>but briefly: I am not affiliated in any way with the Cato Institute. I 
don't believe I've ever written anything for them; I am not an adjunct 
scholar/policy analyst for them; I've been in their building just once in 
the last five months or so. Most importantly, they say things with which I 
do not agree.<<

You plugged that appearance here,thats my beef with you declan.I think you 
should be blasted on this list for aligning in any way shape or form to a 
twisted conservative mob that manufacture consent for corporate 
polluters.We are cypher-PUNKS,not cypher shills.Its crypto-ANARCHY,not 
crypto-libertarianism.

 >>That said, they are a worthy, respectable, valuable, and valued think 
tank, and I always enjoy reading what they write.<<

They are worthless,low, liars for money,its enjoyable tracing their 
profoundly corrupt sources of finance.If you enjoy their literature theres 
something seriously wrong with you,declan,I thought you were an intelligent 
person.How DO you sleep?

 >>As for a "damming exposure," it's just another screed. Yawn<<

You are getting sleepy? WAKE UP AND SMELL WHAT YOUR SHOVELLING,SPORT! I 
wrote several posts to this list that you ducked liked a coward then when I 
shout to get your attention,this is the thanks I get.FUCK DECLAN,Im just 
telling you these things so you don't keep kidding yourself. WAKE UP! You 
are either with us or with them.

Your fellow PUNK for ANARCHY,mattd.




From dog3 at eruditium.org  Fri Dec 14 07:59:36 2001
From: dog3 at eruditium.org (cubic-dog)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:59:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> > Frissell's Believe it or Not:
> > 
> > WWII was won by soldiers, sailors, and marines who fought, died, flew 
> > bombers, commanded armies, commanded fleets, and possessed and used nuclear 
> > weapons without ever having provided the US government with any proof of 
> > their identity.
> 
> Bullshit, if they had birth certificates they were required to produce
> them. And if you worked on the neuclear weapons then the FBI most
> certainly did do a background check.


That magic word *if*, 

I think you are right, and it was an *if*.
ifnot, so what? if you had no identity (tm) going
in, you had one comming out.

Not too long ago, I was able to travel within the US 
on commercial carriers paying cash, with no ID. Why
should tha

> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 14 01:23:39 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:23:39 +0200
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
References: <200112132000.PAA13193@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <00eb01c18481$05ec3ba0$5600a8c0@mark>


From: "Faustine" 

> >>I think the Constitution was the biggest curse ever cast on you. Every
time
> >>something bad happens, you use these magic words like "entrapment" or
> >>"protected by the first ammendment" and so on, instead of shooting the
> >>criminals.
>
> And shooting innocent people too. And anyone who opposes those in power
> whether they're innocent or not.

Dumb Faustine, you usually make sense. I'm an anarchist - I am AGAINST those
in power. (And I don't believe THEY are ever innocent.)

> Fuck that. You ought to be be grateful: if it weren't for the
Constitution, the
> US would have taken over your little country and the rest of the world
> with it a long, long time ago.

Funny, we wanted that for over 50 years. We were waiting for the Americans
to come and rescue us from the Russians they previously sold us to. Now,
just when I woke up, the US starts to conquer the world... or at least tries
to.

> That kind of gross totalitarian imperialism is
> all anyone has to look forward to in a US without what's left of the
> Constitution.

I have an idiot on another list who believes "there should be a law" is the
solution for everything. Laws never did anything. The Constitution is some
words on a paper. It's an idea. It works only as long as politicians fear
it - which they didn't starting at least with Lincoln.

> [The prosperity of the United States] is not the result of accident. It
has a
> philosophic cause. Without the Constitution and the Union, we could not
have
> attained the result; but even these are not the primary cause of our great
> prosperity.

Of course not; they are the cause of your decay. The UNION??? Who is this
idiot? Oh, wait, it's Lincoln. Yeah, that definitely proves it - what was I
thinking?

Mark




From mischief at optushome.com.au  Thu Dec 13 16:39:18 2001
From: mischief at optushome.com.au (Ralph Wallis)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:39:18 +1100
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 09:30:16AM -0600
References: <20011213163655.A12555@localhost> 
Message-ID: <20011214113918.A8857@localhost>


On Thursday, 13 Dec 2001 at 09:30, Jim Choate  wrote:
> Way wrong oh buddy boy.
> 
> I joined the toad.com list in early to mid '93, known about it since about
> two days after it actually formed. The Austin Cypherpunks were formed in
> '94 and the discussion and formation was on the toad.com list. SSZ went
> online in Oct. of 94 when ISDN became available.

Right. that was just first post after a drought. I thought it didn't
look like a maiden post. November '93 it was. 

I liked this early post:
http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1993/11/msg01024.html

(and it has the earnestness of a newcomer.)




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 17:36:15 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:36:15 +1100
Subject: Duncans frizzleling. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214123204.00a62cc0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Kill a few savages

Mmm,I may have an extremely lucrative task for you,Ill get my PGP sorted 
and get back to you,soon,real soon.




From bill at scannell.org  Fri Dec 14 10:38:49 2001
From: bill at scannell.org (Bill Scannell)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:38:49 -0600
Subject: Dmitry's Farewell Hack
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Hey kids,

Dmitry and his lawyer got his now-infamous Defcon presentation exposing
Adobe's pathetic attempts at eBook security read into his pre-trial
agreement.

The agreement, available from Ashcroft Central in PDF format, can be
downloaded at:

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/can/press/assets/applets/2001_12_13_sklyarov.pdf

Somehow, I think that as soon as his plane clears US air space the only
words of assistance the US Attorney is going to from him will consist of
'bite' and 'me'.

-Bill

777 --- 777  777 --- 777
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Thu Dec 13 20:39:13 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:39:13 +0800
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
References:  <5.1.0.14.2.20011213213539.0289fec0@frissell@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3C198271.F53C0C47@mozcom.com>


It is clear that whatever ID procedures were in effect, they were not
effective. Many enlistees lied about their ages and got away with it.

Marc de Piolenc

Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> At 05:10 PM 12/13/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >Which is beside your point. Your statement was that the government didn't
> >do ANY identification for ANY of the soldiers in WWII. Patently wrong.
> >Quit trying to change the rules in the middle of the game.




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Fri Dec 14 12:48:25 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:48:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
In-Reply-To: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com> from "Nomen
  Nescio" at Dec 14, 2001 07:50:24 PM
Message-ID: <200112142048.fBEKmVX13090@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Some Twit writes:

> Declan McCullagh has been producing a one-sided series about a child
> pornographer's supposedly unjust indictment,

Even your first sentence reeks of the Sex Abuse Agenda.  You cannot
distinguish between readers and authors of sexually oriented material, and
you think people should be instantly labeled with whatever any law
enforcement goon or sex whacko chooses to accuse them of, without benefit
of a trial.

> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49132,00.html.  Of course
> everything the pornographer says is taken as gospel, while the police
> are filthy liars.  In fact they have gone so far as to plant child porn
> onto the computer in order to gain a conviction, in McCullagh's twisted
> narrative.  

Any country goofy enough to tell people what they are and are not allowed
to read, think, write, or display, within the privacy of their own homes,
even if no one but them is aware of it, is goofy enough to fabricate
evidence in pursuit of a moral panic.

"If it saves just one child..."

> Missing from this tidy story is the cost-benefit analysis from
> the part of the evil policeman.  He has supposedly committed a felony
> that could lead to decades in prison, just to avoid the difficulty of
> handing the computer back with an apology, which happens all the time
> in police work.

Why, of course, the child sex abuse whackos are all mentally well
adjusted, completely professional, and just live for the day they can say
"I'm sorry" for falsely accusing someone.  Uh huh.

> The real issue for cypherpunks is of course whether there is any connection
> between the child pornographer, Larry Benedict, and the local cypherpunk
> pedophile who uses the pseudonym Eric Michael Cordian. 

I think you have liking pedophiles confused with hating idiots.  I am a
skeptic by nature, and loathe bon-bon munching Holsteins ranting about
children being molested by Bad Clowns in Secret Underground Tunnels with
Giraffes in them.  So sue me.

Any articulate person who criticizes flim-flam and nonsense these days in
the area of child sexual abuse, gets called a pedophile by all the Lying
Feminist Cunts.  They're nuts.  I'm not.  End of story.

> Is it possible that Cordian and Benedict are one and the same?  And that
> Benedict would use his cypherpunk connections as Cordian to get
> McCullagh to produce this whitewash?  How else did McCullagh get drawn
> into the seedy world of child pornography trading rings?

Echols put you up to this, didn't he?  I hear Kinkos pulled his Internet
connection and he's now accusing them of supporting "Internet Child Sex
Predators and Child Pornographers."

Oh when will people learn.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From scribe at exmosis.net  Fri Dec 14 05:47:13 2001
From: scribe at exmosis.net (Graham Lally)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:47:13 +0000
Subject: FBI Surveillance Software to be Part of Windows XP Updates  (fwd)
References: <3C18BF74.5433.12B9EF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C1A02E1.9080301@exmosis.net>


georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

> On 13 Dec 2001, at 22:33, Jei wrote:
> 
> This has to be a joke/hoax.


Aye, but by whom, on whom?

"A _tongue_in_cheek_ announcement from the group claims that cDc 'has
more targeted experience than anyone else in this field'."
(emphasis is mine)

For me (and thus, naturally, subject to vague romanticisings), the whole 
article casts an underlying impression that the cDc are using the 
opportunity to legally advance in their chosen field of expertise. And, 
from their point of view, why not? (Not to say that I agree with the 
closed-source obscurity involved in any way.)

Bizarrely(?), the article originally posted to the list by Jei, and that 
pointed to by the URL in the same message bear discrepancies - quite how 
these subtle additions worked their way in or out I'm not sure, but the 
noticeable ones are the headline/author/date, and the addition in the 
message body of allusions to a RIAA-oriented front rather than an 
unseen, unpatriotic nemesis that the FBI has so far been concerned with:

The web article quotes...
Reid Fleming, a cDc member, said: "Never before has the US faced a more 
troublesome enemy. To meet this growing challenge, the FBI has announced 
an ongoing effort to create and deploy best-of-breed electronic 
surveillance software.

Compared to the message body...
"...To meet this growing challenge _of_fileswap_terrorism_, the FBI has 
announced..."

Checking out the cDc's press release at
http://cultdeadcow.com/details.php3?listing_id=425
reveals some further details, including the idealised purposes of the 
project:

"The new system will be designed to guard against internet fraud, 
identity theft*, unauthorized system access*, virus writing*, industrial 
espionage*, child pornography, information warfare*, public 
corruption**, composing hate speech, and other serious felonies which 
threaten the security of our nation and the safety of its citizens."

* Oh, the infathomable irony!
** Or awareness. Whichever comes first.

OK, so no copyright detection techniques in there. Yet.

It then goes on to describe the plans for an established "plug-in" 
technique to enable plug-n-play spyware, such as Image Analysis (for 
recognising naughty pictures), trigger word monitoring, and (IMHO most 
interestingly) this one:

     "LOGIC AND GRAMMAR ENGINES will be able to detect telltale signs of 
mental disturbance. In conjunction with the text search capability, this 
feature will weed out the merely neurotic from the dangerously insane."

All thats needed now is to tie it neatly into the N-Gram thread...

But where was the media?


- graham.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Dec 14 11:13:40 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:13:40 -0500
Subject: : Re: How do you sleep?
Message-ID: 


> mattd[SMTP:mattd at useoz.com] wrote
	>declan wrote:
>  >>I'll know I'll regret responding to the mattdproffraptroll,
> 
ditto, ditto....

> I hope not,it took long enough to lever you out from under your 
> bridge.Sorry it took the flamethrower.
> 
>  >>but briefly: I am not affiliated in any way with the Cato Institute. I 
> don't believe I've ever written anything for them; I am not an adjunct 
> scholar/policy analyst for them; I've been in their building just once in 
> the last five months or so. Most importantly, they say things with which I
> 
> do not agree.<<
> 
> You plugged that appearance here,thats my beef with you declan.I think you
> 
> should be blasted on this list for aligning in any way shape or form to a 
> twisted conservative mob that manufacture consent for corporate 
> polluters.We are cypher-PUNKS,not cypher shills.Its crypto-ANARCHY,not 
> crypto-libertarianism.
> 
mattd is still a newbie to this list. He will eventually learn that the
title of
the list: 'cypherpunks' tells nothing about the views of list subscribers,
which
range widely. In particular, he will learn that participation in the list
does not
imply acceptance of any particular stance, attitude, or agenda towards 
crypto,  stego, or government or lack thereof. 

The only thing which can really be said about subscribers in general is that
they think crypto is worth discussing.

> Your fellow PUNK for ANARCHY,mattd.
> 
You are not my fellow.
I am not a punk. 
Since no one here even agrees what anarchy is, it's incorrect for you
to assume that anyone agrees on that, either.


Peter Trei






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From declan at well.com  Fri Dec 14 11:59:39 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:59:39 -0500
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: <20011214113918.A8857@localhost>; from mischief@optushome.com.au on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:39:18AM +1100
References: <20011213163655.A12555@localhost>   <20011214113918.A8857@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011214145939.A32765@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:39:18AM +1100, Ralph Wallis wrote:
> I liked this early post:
> http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1993/11/msg01024.html
> 
> (and it has the earnestness of a newcomer.)

Yep! It's surprisingly -- almost -- sweet.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Fri Dec 14 12:02:37 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:02:37 -0500
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
In-Reply-To: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com>; from
  nobody@dizum.com on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 07:50:24PM +0100
References: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20011214150237.B32765@cluebot.com>


This is pretty funny. As you'll see in Part V, I got tipped off to the
case by Crime Victims for a Just Society. As for the rest, well, I posted
a bunch of court documents on wired.com; read them for yourself and
make up your own mind.

-Declan



On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 07:50:24PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Declan McCullagh has been producing a one-sided series about a child
> pornographer's supposedly unjust indictment,
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49132,00.html.  Of course
> everything the pornographer says is taken as gospel, while the police
> are filthy liars.  In fact they have gone so far as to plant child porn
> onto the computer in order to gain a conviction, in McCullagh's twisted
> narrative.  Missing from this tidy story is the cost-benefit analysis from
> the part of the evil policeman.  He has supposedly committed a felony
> that could lead to decades in prison, just to avoid the difficulty of
> handing the computer back with an apology, which happens all the time
> in police work.
> 
> The real issue for cypherpunks is of course whether there is any connection
> between the child pornographer, Larry Benedict, and the local cypherpunk
> pedophile who uses the pseudonym Eric Michael Cordian.  Is it possible
> that Cordian and Benedict are one and the same?  And that Benedict would
> use his cypherpunk connections as Cordian to get McCullagh to produce this
> whitewash?  How else did McCullagh get drawn into the seedy world of child
> pornography trading rings?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know!




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Fri Dec 14 15:46:18 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:46:18 -0800
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
In-Reply-To: <20011214150237.B32765@cluebot.com>
References: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com>; from 
  nobody@dizum.com on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 07:50:24PM +0100
Message-ID: <3C1A1ECA.31789.68806B0@localhost>


On 14 Dec 2001, at 15:02, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> This is pretty funny. As you'll see in Part V, I got tipped off to the
> case by Crime Victims for a Just Society. As for the rest, well, I posted
> a bunch of court documents on wired.com; read them for yourself and
> make up your own mind.
> 
> -Declan
> 

I was highly suspicious of these so-called
"Crime Victims for a Just Society", so I ran their
name through an anagram generator. The relevant match
was "COMMITS JUSTIFICATIVE SORCERY".

I trust the link to Eric Cordian and the OTO is now
clear to everyone.

George




From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Dec 14 13:00:42 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:00:42 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <200112142100.QAA03361@mail.lokmail.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 1435 bytes
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URL: 

From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 21:29:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:29:59 +1100
Subject: : Re: How do you sleep?, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214160336.00a4d2d0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Libertarians like the folks at the Cato Institute are hardly 
conservatives.<<

My beef with them is the money they take to lie.Ive given some examples in 
the last few days that you may have been to busy to respond to.Many  so 
called 'libertarians' are social 
conservatives.See...http://ri.xu.org/arbalest/alembic2c.html

 >>Getting rid of laws prohibiting prostitution, gambling, obscenity,
indecency, prostitution -- these are conservative positions? <<

There are 2 prostitutions? The worst prostitution is not bodily,its taking 
money to tell lies.The kind jamesd tells.The kind the cato institute 
retails and many intelligent people such as you get suckered by.Larry 
flynts probably done a million times more than the cato shills ever did in 
these areas.Plus they are practically unenforcable online.Window dressing.

You
 > are either with us or with them.

 >>Yeah, you and George W. Bush. Good example to follow.<<

Polarisation is a nasty business,yet sometimes shit happens.This list may 
have to choose soon between use of the words anarchy and punk and some 
others more in line with the circle of eunuchs approach of the CALCers.
Lenin stole anarchist slogans and rode them to absolute power,a dictatorial 
murderous terror state,based on lies,no anarchist can ever let that happen 
again.Will ever let happen again.And getting back to your libby pals...
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cato.html  where theres smoke...




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 21:34:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:34:20 +1100
Subject: : Re: How do you sleep? 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214163059.00a502b0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Would Declan be more effective in your mind if he started throwing
rocks at a MacDonalds arch on Pennsylvania Avenue? Somehow I see his
contributions to any movement I would be associated with as being a
little more worthwhile than what you have written/done that I have
read||about. --Gabe<<

He could do a follow up on the danny casolero INSLAW,wackenhut,echelon 
shemozzle.
Ive other friends who will handle the essential work you mention.I PROMIS you.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 22:03:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:03:53 +1100
Subject: Slashdot | Single-Photon LED: Key To Uncrackable Encryption? 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214163734.00a50120@pop.useoz.com>


 >>...is supposedly uncrackable encryption, due to the law of indeterminacy.<<

Im a big booster for uncrackable encryption.Thats why Im  confident of 
crypto-anarchy sooner rather than later.
Singh is a good popularizer whose TV series was on here earlier this year.

UE could be an infinitely receding mirage as indicated by bill honigs 
theory back at quantum encryption hazard post.
The standard model is definitely in play at the moment.(possible socialist 
plot by flying saucer freaks)
The standard model is totally unable to explain mass without the higgs 
boson.Theres a hitch finding this 'god'
particle according to new scientist,dec 8.01.Im unclear as to the 
difference between "ether" (honig) and a 'higgs field'(NS article)
maybe jamesd could help us out here?


"Whoever puts their hand on me to govern me is a usurper and a tyrant.I 
declare them my enemy." PJ Proudon.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 22:27:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:27:47 +1100
Subject: Activist, Inc. (ws Re: Proffr Punished for Witty Remark), 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214172204.00a55eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Supplied by R A Hettinger...> 
http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=95001590 >

Good stuff,see also...http://www.infoshop.org/octo/astroturf.html  How to 
tell grassroots from astroturf.




From 2920515travelincentives at aol.com  Fri Dec 14 17:29:20 2001
From: 2920515travelincentives at aol.com (2920515travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:29:20
Subject: 4120           Your Vacation Winning !                  2051529
Message-ID: <200112141233.fBECXgsa029708@ak47.algebra.com>


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From: 2920828travelincentives at aol.com (2920828travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:29:20
Subject: 6624           Your Vacation Winning !                  2082829
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From: 2922296travelincentives at aol.com (2922296travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:29:22
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From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 22:41:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:41:47 +1100
Subject: CNN.com+mark on Remailers 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214173129.00a56710@pop.useoz.com>


Marcel>>I think the Constitution was the biggest curse ever cast on you. 
Every time something bad happens, you use these magic words like 
"entrapment" or "protected by the first ammendment" and so on, instead of 
shooting the criminals.<<

Mason wrote a bit of it yet wouldn't sign and washington never spoke to him 
again.A black thing? The state has created an escalator of repression 
that's obvious.Shooting the criminals seems more and more likely...AP style.

 >>And most people in my country (myself included) have no idea what OUR 
constitution says - it doesn't matter anyway.

Ditto...au

 >>1-year conscripts.)

Hells bells are you from korea? You pay to kill our crims and we'll pay for 
yours. Strangers on a train.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 22:53:38 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:53:38 +1100
Subject: The Dallas Morning News: Texas/Southwest - FBI: Uncorroborated
  threat received against Texas schools 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214175058.00a56d80@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Heads up folks!!!! 
http://www.dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/ap/stories/AP_STATE_0069.html --

Heads up agent gordon! KILLTHE PRESIDENT IN AUSTIN.Death to Amerikkka.(just 
joshin)




From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 14 18:00:17 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 18:00:17 
Subject: Reichstag 2001: Mil making Daschle-quality anthrax
Message-ID: 


Dirk Boxcuttah forwards:
>An Army biological and chemical warfare facility in Utah has been
>quietly developing a virulent, weapons-grade formulation of anthrax
>spores since at least 1992, and samples of the bacteria were shipped
>back and forth between that facility and Fort Detrick, Md., on several
>occasions in the past several years, according to government officials
>and shipping records.

There is only one use for "weapons-grade" anthrax: infecting a large
population with the disease.  Any organization making it is clearly
a Terrorist Organization and ought to be dealt with accordingly...

- GH


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 13 23:03:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 18:03:20 +1100
Subject: : CNN.com - India on alert after parliament shootout -
  December 13, 2001 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214180003.00a55070@pop.useoz.com>


Earlier this year a state parliarment was burned to the 
ground.Unfortunately no one inside.Then before that was the masterful 
tehelka sting.Thanks for posting this jimbo.We can always learn something 
new.Dani wath!




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Fri Dec 14 02:27:04 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 18:27:04 +0800
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
References: 
Message-ID: <3C19D3F8.D4FEDA9F@mozcom.com>




Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:
> 
> > It is clear that whatever ID procedures were in effect, they were not
> > effective. Many enlistees lied about their ages and got away with it.
> 
> I have zero problem with that assertion.
> 
> However, lying about ones age and getting away with it is a far cry from
> not having any security/identity checks at all.

How do you figure? If I could lie about my age, seems to me I could lie
about just about anything else, with the possible exception of sex. If I
were going for a commission, or got roped into a high-security program
that required background investigation, then I would need better
backstopping than just a set of lies on an enlistment form, but as a
plain old grunt nobody need ever know my name was NOT Michael J.
McGillicuddy.

Marc de Piolenc




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Dec 14 16:34:02 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 18:34:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
In-Reply-To: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> ...the police are filthy liars.  

Um, yes, generally.  Sure, there are exceptions, but as a rule that would be
accurate.

> In fact they have gone so far as to plant child porn
> onto the computer in order to gain a conviction, in McCullagh's twisted
> narrative.

So tell me Nomen, why do you find this so far-fetched?

> Missing from this tidy story is the cost-benefit analysis from
> the part of the evil policeman.  He has supposedly committed a felony
> that could lead to decades in prison, just to avoid the difficulty of
> handing the computer back with an apology, which happens all the time
> in police work.

Examples please?  "All the time"?  I have *never once* heard of such an act
by an LEO, and my range of experience is both personal and anecdotal.  The
more usual act is that the  will first offer a plea, and
if rebuffed, will "decline to prosecute".  Some time thereafter, the former
defendant *may* be offered an opportunity to recover any goods siezed in the
course of the "investigation".  Good luck on these items being worth anything
if they _are_ returned.

> The real issue for cypherpunks is of course whether there is any connection
> between the child pornographer, Larry Benedict, and the local cypherpunk
> pedophile who uses the pseudonym Eric Michael Cordian.

The Cordian nym has been discussed here before, and is pretty much
acknowledged as being a composite, rather than a single individual.  A few of
the persons who comprise Cordian may be recognizable to those intimately
familiar with them, however, as far as I am aware, the Cordian persona has
never been "demasked" of it's various participants.

>  Is it possible
> that Cordian and Benedict are one and the same?

Anything is *possible*.  It's possible that mattd is actually Gary Hart sans
charisma.  This type of idle speculation is truly pointless.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 00:11:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:11:57 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214185644.00a54540@pop.useoz.com>


 > have to choose soon between use of the words anarchy and punk and some

punk <> anarchy

'>>punk' actually means 'anti-establishment' and 'activist' in viewpoint.
 >anti-establishment/activist <> anarchy either.

Im sorry,  I MAY have made a blue here.PUNK in the cypher context clearly 
means jail house punks getting served like hell.

One or two get taken away and they bleat and whinny and turn round and 
round before whimpering themselves to sleep.

At least bin ladens a MAN! Long live BIN LADEN.Millions of dead 
amerdikkkers.KILL THE PRESIDENT,FUCK CHENYS WIFE!

Anarchy means getting into the sweet spot of alpha baboons rainbow 
asshole.Thats all folks.The great crypto rock and roll swindle.Oh you can 
peddle your keister over at the cato dontchaknow.Live off your pork belly 
futures and kid yourself till the cows come home.The circle of eunuchs 
circle their wagons.Punctual as a lethal injection.Was there never a 
fucking WILD BUNCH!




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Dec 14 16:17:27 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:17:27 -0500
Subject: bin Laden tape reliability
Message-ID: 


> From: 	Talley Anonymous Remailer[SMTP:nobody at talley.remailer.org]
> Sent: 	Friday, December 14, 2001 6:47 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: 	bin Laden tape reliability
> 
> Have any of the cypherpunks run across useful analyses of the recently
> released bin Laden videotape?
> 
> Mainstream media seems ready to question the accuracy of the translation -
> but I'm curious if the tape has any basis in reality at all.
> 
If it's a fake, it's a damn subtle one. I've read the transcript, but not
seen
the tape. The contents do not unequivocally prove UBL to be behind the
9/11 attacks, but it's a very reasonable inference. It does clearly show 
that UBL claiming to have foreknowledge of the attacks. If you want to go 
beyond what I consider reasonable, you could argue that UBL is taking
credit for someone else's work.

I find it difficult to believe that someone would go to the trouble of 
producing a fake,  and not use it to show UBL categorically taking
responsibility for the crime.

I'm inclined to believe the tapes reality.

> Purportedly, it was discovered by unidentified parties in an abandoned
> house in Afghanistan, then delivered to the CIA for processing before
> release by the Defense Department.
> 
> How do we know it wasn't manufactured in order to mislead?
> 
> Perhaps it was left in the abandoned house as a deliberate red herring -
> something like that would take some budget, which would seem to 
> suggest it was produced by the intelligence arm of at least a moderate-
> sized nation. (Like Israel. Or the UK. Or the USA. Or ..?)
> 
> Perhaps it wasn't found in an abandoned house at all, but was born
> somewhere in the DC suburbs.
> 
> If someone intended to make a distracting fake, it seems like they might
> follow one of two paths - they could find (or help create, with some
> Hollywood magic) a bin Laden lookalike, and have him interact with some
> other Afghan/Arabic-looking folks. Or, they could go digital, and 
> create a wholly artificial animation model of bin Laden.
> 
> The first method is probably easier, but also probably easier to detect,
> if analysts are inclined to compare things like facial geometry or
> voice characteristics. (It's a shame the tape has such poor quality.)
> 
Facial geometry would be an interesting test. The folks claiming to be
able to spot baddies by facial recognition systems could do an interesting
demo - feeding known pictures of UBL into their system to build a profile,
then seeing the the UBL on the tape matches. I gather the sound is pretty
poor, so voiceprints may not be doable.

> The second method would likely allow the creation of near-undetectable
> fakes, especially if they overlaid the animated creation on top of 
> a physically constructed set with natural lighting, etc (though lighting
> and shadow might be good places to look for evidence of forgery, or
> lack thereof.)
> 
Near-undetectable? I don't think so. Convincing human faces are just 
about the hardest thing to do in CGI animation. Humans are 
hardwired to recognize and differentiate between faces, and we're 
very sensitive to fakes. Look at Pixar's efforts, or the recent video 
game based movie (Final Fantasy???) No one is going to watch 
the humans in either of those for more than a few seconds without 
realizing that they are not real. CGI humans are still like dancing
bears - which are applauded not because they dance well, but
because the dance at all. 

> Maybe the tape is exactly what it purports to be - hard to say. But
> the media's not even asking the interesting questions. 
> 
Perhaps, but I'll take the position it's real until more evidence appears
to the contrary.

Peter Trei





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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Dec 14 19:30:02 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:30:02 -0800
Subject: bin Laden tape reliability
In-Reply-To: <4a207a1ac587fe219418792ef0e6b84f@talley.remailer.org>
Message-ID: 


What is peculiar is that the non-bin Laden parts of the tape
are superior quality, with close up zooms and other adjustments
for quality. The portions which show UBL are consistently poorer
than the rest, and show little adjustment for quality. Hard to know
if that difference is in the original or was due to later doctoring.
Any video wizards to comment on the likelihood of different
video operators or was it tape from two different machines
spliced together?

Eric Margolis, a reporter and commentator just now on Wolf 
Blitzer's CNN show pointed out that the tape allegedly came 
from the Northern Alliance, that the Alliance is very close to 
Russian intelligence, and that the Russians are masters at 
forging documents and evidence of all sorts.

Margolis went on to say that every good reporter is suspicious
of "Christmas gifts" like the tape which appear at just the
right time in a convenient finding place.

Blitzer's other two guests, a Saudi representative, and a
reporter for the LA Times, were not suspicious of the tape.

Me, I agree with our Cherry Tree President that no patriot 
not a pedophile or an African-American on death row in Texas, 
would ever doubt the tape's authenticity. However, I deeply 
respect that the Prez crossed his eyes while lisping
the raspberry. Crossed more than usual. And the smirk
of the Prez when he talks about beheading bin Laden is
right out of the video. The smirk that never goes away
on preppy visages.

To mattd, if you've got emit stuff about *illing the *rez,
be sure to post a real world contact address for those
who want to take you up on it. UBL might want to send
a few bucks.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 00:38:39 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:38:39 +1100
Subject: Cultural libertarianism the real threat to America?, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214193422.00a4f2e0@pop.useoz.com>


LONG RANT.FIR WARMING.

"The Libertarian as Conservative." To me this is so obvious that I am hard
put to find something to say to people who still think libertarianism has
something to do with liberty. A libertarian is just a Republican who takes
drugs. I'd have preferred a more controversial topic like "The Myth of the
Penile Orgasm." But since my attendance here is subsidized by the esteemed
distributor of a veritable reference library on mayhem and dirty tricks, I
can't just take the conch and go rogue. I will indeed mutilate the sacred
cow which is libertarianism, as ordered, but I'll administer a few hard
lefts to the right in my own way. And I don't mean the easy way. I could
just point to the laissez-faire Trilateralism of the Libertarian Party,
then leave and go look for a party. It doesn't take long to say that if you
fight fire with fire, you'll get burned.
If that were all I came up with, somebody would up and say that the LP has
lapsed from the libertarian faith, just as Christians have in- sisted that
their behavior over the last 1900 years or so shouldn't be held against
Christianity. There are Libertarians who try to retrieve libertarianism
from the Libertarian Party just as there are Christians who try to reclaim
Christianity from Christendom and communists (I've tried to myself) who try
to save Communism from the Communist parties and states. They (and I) meant
well but we lost. Libertarianism is party-archist fringe-rightism just as
socialism is what Eastern European dissidents call "real socialism," i.e.,
the real-life state-socialism of queues, quotas, corruption and coercion.
But I choose not to knock down this libertarian strawman-qua-man who's
blowing over anyway. A wing of the Reaganist Right has obviously
appropriated, with suspect selectivity, such libertarian themes as
deregulation and voluntarism. Ideologues indignate that Reagan has
travestied their principles. Tough sh7t! I notice that it's their
principles, not mine, that he found suitable to travesty. This kind of
quarrel doesn't interest me. My reasons for regarding libertarianism as
conservative run deeper than that.
My target is what Libertarians have in common  with each other, and with
their ostensible enemies. Libertarians serve the state all the better
because they declaim against it. At bottom, they want what it wants. But
you can't want what the state wants without wanting the state, for what the
state wants is the conditions in which it flourish- es. My (unfriendly)
approach to modern society is to regard it as an integrated totality. Silly
doctrinaire theories which regard the state as a parasitic excrescence on
society cannot explain its centuries-long persistence, its ongoing
encroachment upon what was previously market terrain, or its acceptance by
the overwhelming majority of people including its demonstrable victims.
A far more plausible theory is that the state and (at least) this form of
society have a symbiotic (however sordid) interdependence, that the state
and such institutions as the market and the nuclear family are, in several
ways, modes of hierarchy and control. Their articulation is not always
harmonious but they share a common interest in consigning their conflicts
to elite or expert resolution. To demonize state authoritarianism while
ignoring identical albeit contract-consecrated subservient arrangements in
the large-scale corporations which control the world economy is fetishism
at its worst. And yet (to quote the most vociferous of radical
Libertarians, Professor Murray Rothbard) there is nothing un-libertarian
about "organization, hierarchy, wage-work, granting of funds by libertarian
millionaires, and a libertarian party." Indeed. That is why libertarianism
is just conservatism with a rationalist/positivist veneer.
Libertarians render a service to the state which only they can provide. For
all their complaints about its illicit extensions they concede, in their
lucid moments, that the state rules far more by consent than by coercion 
which is to say, on present-state "libertarian" terms the state doesn't
rule at all, it merely carries out the tacit or explicit terms of its
contracts. If it seems contradictory to say that coercion is consensual,
the contradiction is in the world, not in the expression, and can't
adequately be rendered except by dialectical discourse. One-dimensional
syllogistics can't do justice to a world largely lacking in the virtue. If
your language lacks poetry and paradox, it's unequal to the task of
accounting for actuality. Otherwise anything radically new is literally
unspeakable. The scholastic "A = A" logic created by the Catholic Church
which the Libertarians inherited, unquestioned, from the Randites is just
as constrictively conservative as the Newspeak of Orwell's 1984.
The state commands, for the most part, only because it commands popular
support. It is (and should be) an embarrassment to Libertarians that the
state rules with mass support  including, for all practical purposes,
theirs.
Libertarians reinforce acquiescent attitudes by diverting discontents who
are generalized (or tending that way) and focusing them on particular
features and functions of the state which they are the first to insist are
expendable! Thus they turn potential revolutionaries into repairmen.
Constructive criticism is really the subtlest sort of praise. If the
Libertarians succeed in relieving the state of its exiguous activities,
they just might be its salvation. No longer will reverence for authority be
eroded by the prevalent official ineptitude. The more the state does, the
more it does badly. Surely one reason for the common man's aversion to
Communism is his reluctance to see the entire economy run like the Post
Office. The state tries to turn its soldiers and policemen into objects of
veneration and respect, but uniforms lose a lot of their mystique when you
see them on park rangers and garbage- men.
The ideals and institutions of authority tend to cluster together, both
subjectively and objectively. You may recall Edward Gibbon's remark about
the eternal alliance of Throne and Altar. Disaffection from received dogmas
has a tendency to spread. If there is any future for freedom, it depends on
this. Unless and until alienation recognizes itself, all the guns the
Libertarians cherish will be useless against the state.
You might object that what I've said may apply to the minarchist majority
of Libertarians, but not to the self-styled anarchists among them. To my
mind a right-wing anarchist is just a minarchist who'd abolish the state to
his own satisfaction by calling it something else. But this incestuous
family squabble is no affair of mine. Both camps call for partial or
complete privitization of state functions but neither questions the
functions themselves. They don't denounce what the state does, they just
object to who's doing it. This is why the people most victimized by the
state display the least interest in libertarianism. Those on the receiving
end of coercion don't quibble over their coercers' credentials. If you
can't pay or don't want to, you don't much care if your deprivation is
called larceny or taxation or restitution or rent. If you like to control
your own time, you distinguish employment from enslavement only in degree
and duration. An ideology which outdoes all others (with the possible
exception of Marxism) in its exaltation of the work ethic can only be a
brake on anti-authoritarian orientations, even if it does make the trains
run on time.
My second argument, related to the first, is that the libertarian phobia as
to the state reflects and reproduces a profound misunderstanding of the
operative forces which make for social control in the modern world. If 
and this is a big "if," especially where bourgeois Libertarians are
concerned  what you want is to maximize individual autonomy, then it is
quite clear that the state is the least of the phenomena which stand in
your way.
Imagine that you are a Martian anthropologist specializing in Terran
studies and equipped with the finest telescopes and video equipment. You
have not yet deciphered any Terran language and so you can only record what
earthlings do, not their shared misconceptions as to what they're doing and
why. However, you can gauge roughly when they're doing what they want and
when they're doing something else.
Your first important discovery is that earthlings devote nearly all their
time to unwelcome activities. The only important exception is a dwindling
set of hunter- gatherer groups unperturbed by governments, churches and
schools who devote some four hours a day to subsistence activities which so
closely resemble the leisure activities of the privileged classes in
industrial capitalist countries that you are uncertain whether to describe
what they do as work or play. But the state and the market are eradicating
these holdouts and you very properly concentrate on the almost
all-inclusive world-system which, for all its evident internal antagonisms
as epitomized in war, is much the same everywhere. The Terran young, you
further observe, are almost wholly subject to the impositions of the family
and the school, sometimes seconded by the church and occasionally the
state. The adults often assemble in families too, but the place where they
pass the most time and submit to the closest control is at work. Thus,
without even entering into the question of the world economy's ultimate
dictation of everybody's productive activity, it's apparent that the source
of the greatest direct duress experienced by the ordinary adult is not the
state but rather the business that employs him. Your foreman or supervisor
gives you more "or-else" orders in a week than the police do in a decade.
If one looks at the world without prejudice but with an eye to maximizing
freedom, the major coercive institution is not the state, it's work.
Libertarians who with a straight face call for the abolition of the state
nonetheless look on anti-work attitudes with horror. The idea of abolishing
work is, of course, an affront to common sense. But then so is the idea of
abolishing the state. If a referendum were held among Libertarians which
posed as options the abolition of work with retention of the state, or
abolition of the state with retention of work, does anyone doubt the outcome?
Libertarians are into linear reasoning and quantitative analysis. If they
applied these methods to test their own reasoning they'd be in for a shock.
That's the point of my Martian thought experiment. This is not to say that
the state isn't just as unsavory as the Libertarians say it is. But it does
suggest that the state is important, not so much for the direct duress it
inflicts on convicts and conscripts, for instance, as for its indirect
back-up of employers who regiment employees, shopkeepers who arrest
shoplifters, and parents who paternalize children. In these classrooms, the
lesson of submission is learned. Of course, there are always a few freaks
like anarcho-capitalists or Catholic anarchists, but they're just
exceptions to the rule of rule.
Unlike side issues such as unemployment, unions, and minimum-wage laws, the
subject of work itself is almost entirely absent from libertarian
literature. Most of what little there is consists of Randite rantings
against parasites, barely distinguishable from the invective inflicted on
dissidents by the Soviet press, and Sunday-school platitudinizing that
there is no free lunch  this from fat cats who have usually ingested a lot
of them. In 1980, a rare exception appeared in a book review published in
the Libertarian Review by Professor John Hospers, the Libertarian Party
elder state's-man who flunked out of the Electoral College in 1972. Here
was a spirited defense of work by a college professor who didn't have to do
any. To demonstrate that his arguments were thoroughly conservative, it is
enough to show that they agreed in all essentials with Marxism-Leninism.
Hospers thought he could justify wage-labor, factory discipline and
hierarchic management by noting that they're imposed in Leninist regimes as
well as under capitalism. Would he accept the same argument for the
necessity of repressive sex and drug laws? Like other Libertarians, Hospers
is uneasy  hence his gratuitous red-baiting  because libertarianism and
Leninism are as different as Coke and Pepsi when it comes to consecrating
class society and the source of its power, work. Only upon the firm
foundation of factory fascism and office oligarchy do Libertarians and
Leninists dare to debate the trivial issues dividing them. Toss in the
mainstream conservatives who feel just the same and we end up with a
veritable trilateralism of pro-work ideology seasoned to taste.
Hospers, who never has to, sees nothing demeaning in taking orders from
bosses, for "how else could a large scale factory be organized?" In other
words, "wanting to abolish authority in large-scale industry is tantamount
to wanting to abolish industry itself." Hospers again? No, Frederick
Engels! Marx agreed: "Go and run one of the Barcelona factories without
direction, that is to say, without authority!" (Which is just what the
Catalan workers did in 1936, while their anarcho- syndicalist leaders
temporized and cut deals with the government.) "Someone," says Hospers,
"has to make decisions and" -- here's the kicker -- "someone _else_ has to
implement them." Why? His precursor Lenin likewise endorsed "individual
dictatorial powers" to assure "absolute and strict unity of will. But how
can strict unity of will be ensured? By thousands subordinating their will
to the will of one." What's needed to make industrialism work is "iron
discipline while at work, with unquestioning obedience to the will of a
single person, the soviet leader, while at work." Arbeit macht frei!
Some people giving orders and others obeying them: this is the essence of
servitude. Of course, as Hospers smugly observes, "one can at least change
jobs," but you can't avoid having a job  just as under statism one can at
least change nationalities but you can't avoid subjection to one
nation-state or another. But freedom means more than the right to change
masters.
Hospers and other Libertarians are wrong to assume, with Manchester
industrialist Engels, that technology imposes its division of labor
"independent of social organization." Rather, the factory is an instrument
of social control, the most effective ever devised to enforce the class
chasm between the few who "make decisions" and the many who "implement
them." Industrial technology is much more the product than the source of
workplace totalitarianism. Thus the revolt against work  reflected in
absenteeism, sabotage, turnover, embezzlement, wildcat strikes, and
goldbricking  has far more liberatory promise than the machinations of
"libertarian" politicos and propagandists.
Most work serves the predatory purposes of commerce and coercion and can be
abolished outright. The rest can be automated away and/or transformed  by
the experts, the workers who do it  into creative, playlike pastimes whose
variety and conviviality will make extrinsic inducements like the
capitalist carrot and the Communist stick equally obsolete. In the
hopefully impending meta-industrial revolution, libertarian communists
revolting against work will settle accounts with "Libertarians" and
"Communists" working against revolt. And then we can go for the gusto!
Even if you think everything I've said about work, such as the possibility
of its abolition, is visionary nonsense, the anti-liberty implications of
its prevalence would still hold good. The time of your life is the one
commodity you can sell but never buy back. Murray Rothbard thinks
egalitarianism is a revolt against nature, but his day is 24 hours long,
just like everybody else's. If you spend most of your waking life taking
orders or kissing ass, if you get habituated to hierarchy, you will become
passive-aggressive, sado-masochistic, servile and stupefied, and you will
carry that load into every aspect of the balance of your life. Incapable of
living a life of liberty, you'll settle for one of its ideological
representations, like libertarianism. You can't treat values like workers,
hiring and firing them at will and assigning each a place in an imposed
division of labor. The taste for freedom and pleasure can't be
compartmentalized.
Libertarians complain that the state is parasitic, an excrescence on
society. They think it's like a tumor you could cut out, leaving the
patient just as he was, only healthier. They've been mystified by their own
metaphors. Like the market, the state is an activity, not an entity. The
only way to abolish the state is to change the way of life it forms a part
of. That way of life, if you call that living, revolves around work and
takes in bureaucracy, moralism, schooling, money, and more. Libertarians
are conservatives because they avowedly want to maintain most of this mess
and so unwittingly perpetuate the rest of the racket. But they're bad
conservatives because they've forgotten the reality of institutional and
ideological interconnection which was the original insight of the
historical conservatives. Entirely out of touch with the real currents of
contemporary resistance, they denounce practical opposition to the system
as "nihilism," "Luddism," and other big words they don't understand. A
glance at the world confirms that their utopian capitalism just can't
compete with the state. With enemies like Libertarians, the state doesn't
need friends.




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Dec 14 10:50:24 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:50:24 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
Message-ID: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com>


Declan McCullagh has been producing a one-sided series about a child
pornographer's supposedly unjust indictment,
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49132,00.html.  Of course
everything the pornographer says is taken as gospel, while the police
are filthy liars.  In fact they have gone so far as to plant child porn
onto the computer in order to gain a conviction, in McCullagh's twisted
narrative.  Missing from this tidy story is the cost-benefit analysis from
the part of the evil policeman.  He has supposedly committed a felony
that could lead to decades in prison, just to avoid the difficulty of
handing the computer back with an apology, which happens all the time
in police work.

The real issue for cypherpunks is of course whether there is any connection
between the child pornographer, Larry Benedict, and the local cypherpunk
pedophile who uses the pseudonym Eric Michael Cordian.  Is it possible
that Cordian and Benedict are one and the same?  And that Benedict would
use his cypherpunk connections as Cordian to get McCullagh to produce this
whitewash?  How else did McCullagh get drawn into the seedy world of child
pornography trading rings?

Enquiring minds want to know!




From Bizz4profit at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 14 18:57:10 2001
From: Bizz4profit at yahoo.com (Bizz4profit at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:57:10 -0700
Subject: You can really make Money!! I made $300.00 
Message-ID: <200112150301.VAA14590@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Dec 14 20:00:10 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:00:10 -0800
Subject: bin Laden tape reliability
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Also, it is peculiar that almost nobody in the tape
looked at the camera, which is hard to do unless
trained to do so like actors are, or such looks were 
removed by editing.

It is also possible that the tape was made surreptitiously,
though the differing camera angles would have to be
done by separate cameras.

Bin Laden's bulk appears to change in different shots.
>From the side he looks heavier than usual, but from the
front about the same stringbean. The side shot might
have been due to distortion -- it was closer in than
the frontal.

If the tape is legitmate, I'd say it probably was made
to boost the reputation of the Saudi sheik sitting to
bin Laden's left. He is the second-most person featured.
Could be bin Laden made an appearance and agreed
to the tape for promotion of the Sheik's agenda. Perhaps
bin Laden was on a tour himself of a batch of sheiks
arranged in adjoining rooms, anointing each, maybe
even doing a fund-raiser like our photo-addicted pols.

Certainly UBL was behaving identically to politicians
out working the crowd, bragging, kidding, kissing,
pretending to love the audience, acting as though
all of it is not for video outreach. True, politicians
send in cut-outs and UBL could have sent his
double of which he must have several.




From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 14 20:03:20 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:03:20 
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
Message-ID: 


Nomen Nescio writes:
>Declan McCullagh has been producing a one-sided series about a child
>pornographer's supposedly unjust indictment,
>http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49132,00.html.  Of course
>everything the pornographer says is taken as gospel, while the police
>are filthy liars.

I didn't read every word of the documents on the Wired site, but enough
to see that whatever this guy may have been, an actual Mean, Nasty,
Scary Father Raper and Child Pornographer he was not.  As the Church
Lady would say, how *convenient* that the postal inspector has retired
rather than stay on to explain his lies, the manufacturing of evidence,
and the wanton and careless destruction of exculpatory evidence in this
case.  ("I'm sorry, Your Honor, I just can't recall...")


>                    In fact they have gone so far as to plant child porn
>onto the computer in order to gain a conviction, in McCullagh's twisted
>narrative.  Missing from this tidy story is the cost-benefit analysis from
>the part of the evil policeman.  He has supposedly committed a felony
>that could lead to decades in prison, just to avoid the difficulty of
>handing the computer back with an apology, which happens all the time
>in police work.

You have to appear to have done some work occasionally, even if you're
a postal inspector.  And then you can't very well admit that you've
just wasted N months and countless tax dollars investigating a poor
nerdy video gamer, can you?  This isn't really difficult to understand
except for the naive, and disingenuous apologists for the police state.
(Don't bother... we already know which you are.)

By the way, when's the last time anyone heard of law enforcement
admitting they made a mistake, humbly apologizing and giving someone
their property back?  I can't ever recall having heard that.  The most
one ever hears is (usually several years after the fact) something
like "mistakes were made; we are re-evaluating our investigative
procedures to avoid any such mistakes in the future".  No one is ever
held responsible.  (Did Richard Jewell get an apology?  Did Wen Ho Lee?
Or Randy Weaver?  How about the Branch Davidians?)

Now, I'm not claiming that the cops are *always* lying.  Only that
anyone who automatically *assumes* that they're telling the truth is
a lot scarier to me than this so-called child pornographer.

>The real issue for cypherpunks is of course whether there is any connection
>between the child pornographer, Larry Benedict, and the local cypherpunk
>pedophile who uses the pseudonym Eric Michael Cordian.  Is it possible
>that Cordian and Benedict are one and the same?  And that Benedict would
>use his cypherpunk connections as Cordian to get McCullagh to produce this
>whitewash?  How else did McCullagh get drawn into the seedy world of child
>pornography trading rings?
>
>Enquiring minds want to know!

This is only the "real issue" for the small percentage of priggish
wannabe cops on the list; those who are afraid that someone somewhere
may be having fun doing something they consider immoral (but who'd
secretly enjoy the titillation of being let in on it).


- GH



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx




From seth.johnson at realmeasures.dyndns.org  Fri Dec 14 20:08:13 2001
From: seth.johnson at realmeasures.dyndns.org (Seth Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:08:13 -0500
Subject: The MS DRM Patent and Freedom to Speak and Think
Message-ID: <3C1ACCAD.54DABF3E@RealMeasures.dyndns.org>



In his November 6 essay "You're Free to Think,"
(http://davenet.userland.com/2001/11/06/youreFreeToThink),
Dave Winer comments that whatever else happens in the
ongoing, increasing trend towards policing of the public's
right to use information and information technology, we are
still left with the freedom to *think* for ourselves.  He
seemed to me to be offering this comment as a bare source of
solace against the government's increasing intent to control
the prospects of communications technology.

Microsoft's favorable treatment of late caused him to wonder
what kind of deal Bill Gates must have worked out with the
Bush Administration.  He wondered what Microsoft might have
given the government in return for the highly favorable
terms of the settlement that's currently on the table in the
court proceedings against the company, for monopoly
practices in the operating systems arena.

He commented specifically on the current ramifications of
Microsoft's increasing position of power in the operating
systems market:

> Now, they have to get people to upgrade to
> Windows XP -- that's the final step, the one that
> fully turns over the keys to the Internet to them,
> because after XP they can upgrade at will, routing
> through Microsoft-owned servers, altering content,
> and channeling communication through government
> servers. After XP they fully own electronic
> communication media, given the consent decree,
> assuming it's approved by the court.

Now, it has just come to light that Microsoft has been
awarded a software "patent" for a "Digital Rights
Management" operating system.

This development shows us exactly where we stand now. 
Microsoft doesn't have to offer anything to the government;
it has only to hold possession of a patent covering the
"DRM" elements of its latest OS, thereby providing an almost
absolutely assured trajectory toward establishing the terms
by which the public's ability to communicate digital
information will be controlled.

Please see the message I am posting below, from the CYBERIA
email list, which quotes from the patent.

The real kicker is right here:

> The digital rights management operating system
> also limits the functions the user can perform on the
> rights-managed data and the trusted application, and
> can provide a trusted clock used in place of the
> standard computer clock.

The ability to use information freely is now going to be
policed at the most intricate level, in the name of
exclusive rights and to the detriment of the most
fundamental Constitutional principles of our society.

Whereas the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution assures
that every American citizen has the full right to freedom of
speech, we see here the ultimate legislative and technical
trappings by which the public will be demarcated as mere
information consumers.

Facts and ideas are not contraband and may never be
copyrighted or otherwise constrained under the terms of
intellectual "property," whether they are bound up in an
expressive work or not; and the computer is a *logic* device
that now sits on nearly every citizen's desktop -- it is
*not* a consumer appliance.  From both the standpoints of
speech and thought, so-called digital "rights management" is
a utterly desolate *dead end.*

Whether we speak of the constituent pieces of expressive
works, or the nature of the computer itself, so-called
digital "rights management" marks the beginning of a grand
rollback of the means by which the promise of our
participation in and advancement of civil society have
lately been greatly augmented.

Rather than facing the simple, plain truth that the power
given in the U.S. Constitution for Congress to grant (or
deny) to authors and inventors "exclusive right" to their
works, was intended to cover products that do not
intrinsically bind up the very means of communication and of
our participation in civil society, we instead are
experiencing a social condition wherein monopoly interests
exploit the fluidity of logical products to evade the very
terms of antitrust law and to assure that the public's
ordinary rights do not gain purchase against their
interests.  Antitrust law is all about competition in a
particular product, but software is as amorphous in its
possibilities as our own vaunted power to think.  Thus
Microsoft easily maintains it is not in the browser market,
competing with Netscape; it is, rather, in the market for
"innovative operating systems."

We are now seeing just how "innovative" that operating
system can really be.

If we do not confront the ludicrousness of the idea of
holding a patent of this nature, and the outrageousness of
our courts' failure to confront the truth about what holding
market power in the field of informatin products really
means, we will soon be free to speak and think -- only so
long as we don't use our computers to do it.

Thus, in the name of exclusive rights, Microsoft is serving
old world publishing interests, acting by means of legal
fictions to assure that citizens who seek to further the
prospects of information technology, will be inexorably
locked into the role of information consumers, blocked from
exercising their own tools in full accordance with the
rights that our Constitution supposedly guards.

We are *all* information producers, whether we manifest this
as a routine, inalienable part of the ordinary rights we
exercise in our everyday lives, or whether we engage
ourselves in the present, increasingly desperate and furtive
struggle to guard commercial interests by restricting the
use of information delivered in digital form.

We have always been information producers, and we must not
accede to the interests of those who do not regard the
public at large as full and equal citizens, but rather as
mere consumers.


Seth Johnson
Committee for Independent Technology
December 14, 2001

Information Producers Initiative:
http://RealMeasures.dyndns.org/C-FIT

> -------- Original Message --------
> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:18:08 -0800
> From: John Young 
> 
> Microsoft's patent for a Digital Rights Management
> Operating System was awarded yesterday:
> 
>   http://cryptome.org/ms-drm-os.htm
> 
> Abstract
> 
> A digital rights management operating system protects
> rights-managed data, such as downloaded content, from
> access by untrusted programs while the data is loaded
> into memory or on a page file as a result of the
> execution of a trusted application that accesses the
> memory. To protect the rights-managed data resident in
> memory, the digital rights management operating system
> refuses to load an untrusted program into memory while
> the trusted application is executing or removes the
> data from memory before loading the untrusted program.
> If the untrusted program executes at the operating
> system level, such as a debugger, the digital rights
> management operating system renounces a trusted identity
> created for it by the computer processor when the
> computer was booted.  To protect the rights-managed data
> on the page file, the digital rights management
> operating system prohibits raw access to the page file,
> or erases the data from the page file before allowing
> such access.  Alternatively, the digital rights
> management operating system can encrypt the
> rights-managed data prior to writing it to the page
> file.  The digital rights management operating system
> also limits the functions the user can perform on the
> rights-managed data and the trusted application, and
> can provide a trusted clock used in place of the
> standard computer clock.
> 
> **********************************************************************
> For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia
> Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot
> Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com
> **********************************************************************




From p13152 at svizzera.org  Fri Dec 14 20:34:27 2001
From: p13152 at svizzera.org (p13152 at svizzera.org)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:34:27 -0500
Subject: Florida-Disney World-Mickey Mouse                         25669
Message-ID: <00007d125add$0000757d$00006445@126.com>

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From nobody at talley.remailer.org  Fri Dec 14 15:47:19 2001
From: nobody at talley.remailer.org (Talley Anonymous Remailer)
Date: 14 Dec 2001 23:47:19 -0000
Subject: bin Laden tape reliability
Message-ID: <4a207a1ac587fe219418792ef0e6b84f@talley.remailer.org>


Have any of the cypherpunks run across useful analyses of the recently
released bin Laden videotape?

Mainstream media seems ready to question the accuracy of the translation -
but I'm curious if the tape has any basis in reality at all.

Purportedly, it was discovered by unidentified parties in an abandoned
house in Afghanistan, then delivered to the CIA for processing before
release by the Defense Department.

How do we know it wasn't manufactured in order to mislead?

Perhaps it was left in the abandoned house as a deliberate red herring -
something like that would take some budget, which would seem to 
suggest it was produced by the intelligence arm of at least a moderate-
sized nation. (Like Israel. Or the UK. Or the USA. Or ..?)

Perhaps it wasn't found in an abandoned house at all, but was born
somewhere in the DC suburbs.

If someone intended to make a distracting fake, it seems like they might
follow one of two paths - they could find (or help create, with some
Hollywood magic) a bin Laden lookalike, and have him interact with some
other Afghan/Arabic-looking folks. Or, they could go digital, and 
create a wholly artificial animation model of bin Laden.

The first method is probably easier, but also probably easier to detect,
if analysts are inclined to compare things like facial geometry or
voice characteristics. (It's a shame the tape has such poor quality.)

The second method would likely allow the creation of near-undetectable
fakes, especially if they overlaid the animated creation on top of 
a physically constructed set with natural lighting, etc (though lighting
and shadow might be good places to look for evidence of forgery, or
lack thereof.)

Maybe the tape is exactly what it purports to be - hard to say. But
the media's not even asking the interesting questions. 




From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Fri Dec 14 16:28:09 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:28:09 +0100
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


Lucky Green writes:
> A popular remailer will handle some 3,500 messages a day. But this
> includes intra remailer-network traffic. How many of those messages are
> messages entering and leaving the cloud is any remailer operator's
> guess, since current remailer statistics software has no means to
> differentiate between internal and boundary traffic. Of course any
> self-respecting TLA would know the those figures that the remail
> operators themselves are currently unable to obtain.

It's a myth that remailers don't distinguish between inter-remailer and
outside traffic.  Actually, remailers generally have built-in knowledge
of every other remailer, and mail from them is handled specially.

The reason is because of flood detection and prevention, which is a
feature of modern remailer software.  Attacks against the remailer network
in the form of message floods have been a common nuisance in recent years.
As a countermeasure, current remailer software detects and automatically
blocks addresses which provide excessive quantities of mail.

Unfortunately, the most common cause of large incoming volumes is
that the other sender is itself a remailer.  Hence it is necessary to
maintain a database of all extant remailers and disable flood detection
for those addresses.  This is a common practice for remailer operators.

It's also one of the main reasons why certain remailer chains
"mysteriously" fail to work.  With the set of remailers changing
frequently, especially in recent months, it takes time, often weeks,
before all the remailers get around to updating their databases to
reflect the current set of addresses.  Until then you have a failure
with any chain which goes from a remailer to another remailer which has
not yet added it.  You end up with these strange situations where A can
send to B which can send to C, and C can send to A, but any chain where
A sends to C fails.

At one time there was a somewhat romantic and idealistic notion that
remailers would all operate independently, with no need to be aware
of each other's existence.  Experience has proven that this is not
the case.  Remailers do know about each other, they need to know about
each other, and they coordinate their efforts via various mailing lists
and newsgroups.

Given this reality, it is time to consider a different approach to
remailers, one in which all remailer operators work together in a peer
to peer network.  It's crazy for remailers to use RFC2822 email to
communicate with each other, with all of its problems with reliability
and the many layers of software which mail goes through to and from the
remailing functionality.

Remailer operators should have permanent encrypted links to one another,
with constant (or at least message-uncorrelated) traffic volumes.
They can still use latency, message pools, and other features, of course.
But when it comes time to deliver messages to the next remailer in the
list, that should be done with a reliable and direct connection that
doesn't have to depend on the vagaries of sendmail, procmail, Microsoft
servers or the many other layers that get in the way.  This would both
increase the reliability of the remailer network and improve its security
by hiding inter-remailer traffic.




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Dec 14 16:30:17 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:30:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: SWOT (formerly "Phil Zimmermann on key exchange")
Message-ID: 


Paul Holman writes, to about 10 email lists:

> All, please forgive the cross-posting, I haven't been following any of 
> these lists recently, but have a vested interest in this conversation 
> and would like to be CC'd on this thread in the future.
>
> First, can somebody please send me a reference for this alleged "Robot 
> CA" article so I can read it.

See http://zgp.org/linux-elitists/20011113171821.D10036 at zgp.org.html,
which has links to an article about the Zimmermann speech at
http://linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5605 and some ideas from Brad
Templeton at http://www.templetons.com/brad/crypt.html.




From marketer at dolphin.am  Fri Dec 14 13:46:50 2001
From: marketer at dolphin.am (Information Interface Ltd.)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:46:50 +0400
Subject: Fastest Money Maker And Best Advertiser On The Net !
Message-ID: <887312-2200112514214650620@dolphin.am>


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From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Dec 14 17:00:16 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 02:00:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> Lucky Green writes:
> > A popular remailer will handle some 3,500 messages a day. But this
> > includes intra remailer-network traffic. How many of those messages are
> > messages entering and leaving the cloud is any remailer operator's
> > guess, since current remailer statistics software has no means to
> > differentiate between internal and boundary traffic. Of course any
> > self-respecting TLA would know the those figures that the remail
> > operators themselves are currently unable to obtain.
>
> It's a myth that remailers don't distinguish between inter-remailer and
> outside traffic.  Actually, remailers generally have built-in knowledge
> of every other remailer, and mail from them is handled specially.

[...]

I think what Lucky means is that the remailer operators have no way of 
knowing if the messages passing between remailers are actual messages, 
dummy traffic, stats pings, etc.

All that a remailer can tell is the number of real messages entering or 
leaving his server (and even this would require modification to the 
remailer software). Unless all the remailer operators collected and shared 
this information, we can't know accurate stats for the remailer network as 
a whole.

How much are dummy messages that come from one remailer and die at the
last remailer? How much are pings that return to the originating
remailer/stats collector? These aren't helpful if you are a remailer user
wishing to hide in the crowd -- you need lots of other remailer users
generating traffic.




From steve at sendon.net  Fri Dec 14 18:17:10 2001
From: steve at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 02:17:10 +0000
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
References: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <200112150408.EAA10911@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Nomen Nescio (nobody at dizum.com):
> The real issue for cypherpunks is of course whether there is any connection
> between the child pornographer, Larry Benedict, and the local cypherpunk
> pedophile who uses the pseudonym Eric Michael Cordian.  Is it possible
> that Cordian and Benedict are one and the same?  And that Benedict would
> use his cypherpunk connections as Cordian to get McCullagh to produce this
> whitewash?  How else did McCullagh get drawn into the seedy world of child
> pornography trading rings?

Declan is a pedophile?  When did this occur?  And why is that filthy pervert
writing for respected media outlets?


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Witness
those little white men
practising their alibis.
        -- Dean Russell




From FREEOFFERS at CHAT.COM  Sat Dec 15 01:04:50 2001
From: FREEOFFERS at CHAT.COM (FREEOFFERS at CHAT.COM)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 04:04:50 -0500
Subject: ATTENTION: WEBCAM & CHAT [ADULTS ONLY]
Message-ID: <200112150904.EAA03704@linux872.dn.net>


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From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 10:24:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:24:49 +1100
Subject: creeping socialist communism
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215051048.00a50d70@pop.useoz.com>


[Tom Uren on a trip to japan by the head of the returned soldiers league.]

I'm talking about the militarists, the crimes they committed and the 
atrocities they committed -- should be taught in the education system to 
the young people.

TONY JONES: He said today specifically this was an opportunity to send a 
direct message to the Japanese that they should be educating their young 
people about those atrocities committed by their own military during World 
War II.

Is this the right way to do it, though?

TOM UREN: Yes, he should be given support and credit.

I don't know about going to the controversial war memorial that he went to 
because, after all, there's a lot of controversy even in Japan itself 
whether or not they should go to those shrines.

That's probably one of the question marks.

TONY JONES: Let's focus on that just for a moment.

This was a war memorial commemorating the Japanese dead.

Is it wrong to honor the fallen enemy?

TOM UREN: Yeah, well, I mean the thing is that the enemy -- even though we 
didn't recognize the cruelty of them -- but it really came from the 
leadership down.

I think that's, I hope, a thing of the past.

I mean, the crimes they committed were in fact within Australia.

People ask me, you know, to talk about what the Japanese did and I said, 
"It's indescribable".

TONY JONES: Let's take this question of attitudes, though, because one of 
the things that Major General Phillips is done is, in a sense, he's turned 
the argument on its head.

He said today, "This is a great opportunity to have our veterans think 
through this issue".

Is that what it is?

Is it time for vete7ans to rethink their attitudes toward the Japanese?

TOM UREN: Well, I think that as far as I'm concerned, there's a difference 
between the Japanese people and the Japanese militarists.

It's the militarists that I don't think are the ones that are still really 
stopping the history of Japan to be unfolded to their younger people.

That's my differences there.

TONY JONES: Let me ask you this, though, do you understand your fellow 
veterans, your comrades who were prisoners of war?

Do you understand why many of them will never forgive, will continue to 
hate, and that they transfer that hatred through generations to all Japanese?

TOM UREN: No, they've got that feeling and they find it very hard to forgive.

On the other hand, there are many of us that, in fact, have forgiven.

I mean, Weary Dunlop was just one example.

TONY JONES: How do you come to do that after the things that happened?

TOM UREN: Well, I served with Weary for 1.5 years, and if you asked what I 
thought of the Japanese in the first 2.5 years when I was a prisoner of war 
with them, I would have exterminated them from the planet.

But the last year of the war I spent in Japan, particularly the first nine 
months at a place called Saganosaki.

I worked with old Japanese, with a kindness.

We were doing shiftwork and after we'd finish, we'd go into a communal bath 
and work together.

And when we couldn't speak their language and they couldn't speak ours, the 
old body language came over.

I found myself, the only Red Cross parcel I got, I found myself sharing it 
with some of my workmates who were Japanese because they were starving the 
same way we were.

TONY JONES: We're going to have to leave it there.

Thanks very much for sharing that with us.

TOM UREN: I just want to say one thing.

There's no progress in hate.

Really, I believe in progress.

TONY JONES: Thanks for joining us tonight.

TOM UREN: Thank you.

"weary" Dunlop.Sir Edward Weary Dunlop was a surgeon in the Australian Army 
during World War Two.


Former prisoner of War, Bill Griffiths is among the many who owe their 
lives to Weary.

The Japanese planned to kill him.

What use is a disabled man, it was argued.

Weary stepped in front of the bayonets and refused to move until Bill's 
life was spared.

A habit of keeping track of the war via a hidden wireless also landed Weary 
in the firing line.

"I got handcuffed around a tree, my tummy exposed to four bayonets and a 
countdown. Things were pretty grim." Weary ended up being tortured instead 
... but the experience only made him more defiant.

The aussie's egalitarianism arguably led to better survival rates than the 
class obsessed brits who died like flies.
It led Uren ,who later joined the labor party and became a minister ,to say 
that,"In the camps we were all socialists"
Weary who was always on the conservative side of politics (the liberal 
party in au) actually went further when he said,"In the camps we were all 
communists!"




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 12:23:12 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 07:23:12 +1100
Subject: Grand Theft Crypto.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215072054.00a1ca90@pop.useoz.com>


Grand Theft Crypto.

Grand theft crypto is an F-box game engine from the the underground game 
crew that bought you
president evil,castle wolfensen,plane murder and doctor rat.In stores for 
Christmas the game
is a combination role-playing first peon shooter in a close but separate 
reality.Some revolutionary
software has been stolen by the last empire,a military/industrial combine 
thats taking over the
planet.Targeting dissidents and code rebels stormtroopers of the empire are 
similar to 1st generation
OSD robocops while high up positions in the empire have been favoured by 
players in field tests,
the survival and resistance tactics and strategy of the rebels win over 
longer term players as
they delve into the multi-verse world of 2006.Ricomended.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Dec 15 08:31:45 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:31:45 -0800
Subject: My week in Manila:Dial M for Mayhem.
In-Reply-To: <3C1AE941.34AE3449@mozcom.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215125153.00a53ca0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


Marc confessed:

>You need to get away from Manila, Mattd. It just ain't the Philippines,
>any more than Paris is France.

So you're a captive of the rebels, too. I agree there's is no
better life in the PI than being held prisoner away from the
mainstream.

In '63 on a Ford Foundation venture to the International Rice
Research Institute at Los Banos, I was captured by local
Commie bandits, as the faculty of the University of the Philippines 
were called by the fearful American enclave set up to woo the
heathen away from Red China.

It took about a second of Commie sex and rice wine to induce
me to abandon Texas Baptist eternal horniness and join
the enemy. After a week of ecstactic captivity, called by
the minimal missionary sex Amercians, brainwashing, my
future was set on the straight and narrow way of liberation,
any kind of liberation so long it was anti-authority.

I would still be there obeying my dick, drunk 24/7, with deep 
happiness had Ford not sent stand-by whitecoats to wrap me 
as they did with all wanton expatriates from with a canvas
jacket and deposit me back in infernal Houston which was
just awakening to the dream of making George Bush 1
the POTUS.

Even now a bowl of hot steaming rice is a sacred reminder
of how Asian Communism saved some Americans from a 
future of hand work and sobriety. All you Korean and Viet
Nam ex-POWs know the benefits of brain cleansing, as
does Marc and now mattd, the pleasures of auto-AP.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Dec 15 06:47:50 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:47:50 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. vetoes Mideast peace move - December 15, 2001
Message-ID: <3C1B6296.D550746A@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/12/15/un.resolution/
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Dec 15 06:58:56 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:58:56 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Webcasting and the DMCA
Message-ID: <3C1B6530.B54BAAD0@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/14/2311229.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Dec 15 07:29:47 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:29:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. vetoes Mideast peace move - December 15,
 2001
In-Reply-To: <3C1B6296.D550746A@ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/12/15/un.resolution/

   "It was the second time in less than a year that the United States had
   used its veto power to effectively kill a resolution that would create
   a monitoring mechanism for the protection of Palestinian civilians."

And Joe FortyOunce doesn't understand why the world wants us dead...


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 14:32:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:32:50 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215091313.00a25eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Peter Trei  sent  >>mattd is still a newbie to this list. He will 
eventually learn that the title of the list: 'cypherpunks' tells nothing 
about the views of list subscribers, which range widely. In particular, he 
will learn that participation in the list does not imply acceptance of any 
particular stance, attitude, or agenda towards crypto, stego, or government 
or lack thereof. The only thing which can really be said about subscribers 
in general is that they think crypto is worth discussing.

  > Your fellow PUNK for ANARCHY,mattd. >

  You are not my fellow. I am not a punk. Since no one here even agrees 
what anarchy is, it's incorrect for you to assume that anyone agrees on 
that, either. Peter Trei <<

Im a newbie to a list titled cypherpunks,not 
cyphershills,cypherprats,cyphergoons,cyphersucks,cypherfeds,etc,etc.
Punk does imply something whatever you say.To accept lies,propaganda and 
self delusional CALC,would be fatal for this list.The natural selection of 
good ideas will sort this all out,let the rivers flow red.
You are not my fellow now;So?.Not that I want you for my fellow or asked 
you,I was talking to declan,there still may be hope for him.I also dont 
just write for those 
neutral,balanced,objective,scientific,cleareyed,lucid,rational pragmatists 
such as
your good self.I have to account for the foul,creepy vermin of so called 
law enforcement and possible data miners from the year 2010.ie.Posterity. 
If crypto-anarchy is as big as I think its going to be this list will be 
hirstorically significant.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 14:34:14 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:34:14 +1100
Subject: : Re: How do you sleep? 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215093333.00a1f8e0@pop.useoz.com>


Peter Trei sent >>mattd is still a newbie to this list. He will eventually 
learn that the title of the list: 'cypherpunks' tells nothing about the 
views of list subscribers, which range widely. In particular, he will learn 
that participation in the list does not imply acceptance of any particular 
stance, attitude, or agenda towards crypto, stego, or government or lack 
thereof. The only thing which can really be said about subscribers in 
general is that they think crypto is worth discussing.
 > Your fellow PUNK for ANARCHY,mattd. >
You are not my fellow. I am not a punk. Since no one here even agrees what 
anarchy is, it's incorrect for you to assume that anyone agrees on that, 
either. Peter Trei <<
Im a newbie to a list titled cypherpunks,not 
cyphershills,cypherprats,cyphergoons,cyphersucks,cypherfeds,etc,etc.
Punk does imply something whatever you say.To accept lies,propaganda and 
self delusional CALC,would be fatal for this list.The natural selection of 
good ideas will sort this all out,let the rivers flow red.
You are not my fellow now;So?.Not that I want you for my fellow or asked 
you,I was talking to declan,there still may be hope for him.I also dont 
just write for those 
neutral,balanced,objective,scientific,cleareyed,lucid,rational pragmatists 
such as
your good self.I have to account for the foul,creepy vermin of so called 
law enforcement and possible data miners from the year 2010.ie.Posterity. 
If crypto-anarchy is as big as I think its going to be this list will be 
hirstorically significant.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 14:54:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 09:54:20 +1100
Subject: Poor little child pornographer 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215093643.00a1d470@pop.useoz.com>


Birdbrain nescio plops>>Declan McCullagh has been producing a one-sided 
series...

Well he's a prime CALC suspect.Ill grant you that.

 >>everything the pornographer says is taken as gospel

Corn patch moving violation? Tim? anyone?

 >>the police are filthy liars.

Season with a little truth as garnish

 >>McCullagh's twisted narrative

On Cato yes.sadly.

 >>Missing from this tidy story is the cost-benefit analysis from the part 
of the evil policeman. He has supposedly committed a felony that could lead 
to decades in prison, just to avoid the difficulty of handing the computer 
back with an apology, which happens all the time in police work.

Im suspecting NN as filth now,he's dirtier than 'Faustine". The standard of 
police work gets exposed sometimes like the OJ  fuckup. They've not  handed 
back my computer yet,either.This particular policeman sounds like 'Maniac 
cop' to me.
Bad lieutenant.

 >>Smears,classic cointelpro coin of the realm.Agent nomen nescio crawls 
out into the light.no name nsacia.Slime.




From artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 15 08:25:29 2001
From: artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com (Artcamp SC de RL)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:25:29 -0600
Subject: the Mexican woman who followed her heart
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011215102513.024ef250@pop.mail.yahoo.com>


Artcamp is now presenting it's serialized e-novel "Azucena" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indigenous_peoples_literature/messages

You are very welcome to join this group if you want to follow the story.

Azucena is the Mexican woman who followed her heart
on the road to her destiny, wherever that way leads.

This is the "true" story, transformed by art,
of a village girl whose heart was stolen by a macho bull-rider.

Best friendly wishes from Guerrero Mexico

Maria de los Angeles Robles Uribe
http://www.artcamp.com.mx



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec 15 11:09:38 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:09:38 -0800
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
In-Reply-To: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3C1B2F72.4190.91D0B7@localhost>


    --
On 14 Dec 2001, at 19:50, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Declan McCullagh has been producing a one-sided series 
> about a child pornographer's supposedly unjust indictment, 
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49132,00.html. Of
> course everything the pornographer says is taken as gospel,
> while the police are filthy liars.  In fact they have gone
> so far as to plant child porn onto the computer in order to
> gain a conviction, in McCullagh's twisted narrative.
> Missing from this tidy story is the cost-benefit analysis
> from the part of the evil policeman. He has supposedly
> committed a felony that could lead to decades in prison,
> just to avoid the difficulty of handing the computer back
> with an apology, which happens all the time in police work.

Forgery of evidence, and planting of evidence, is routine. 
Punishment for such offences is almost unknown, even when 
trials flagrantly show such events.

Nor have computers ever been returned with an apology, though 
on sometimes they have been returned.

Cops, unlike mafiosi, never apologize. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     nKkjEJa5GfUc7pTTp51ElVtCdZhb4gZz8Oe2yOOz
     4oaN5pQyENZ6t9LEXd0VJRwdSnEGFxK8OHohRpvzh




From declan at well.com  Sat Dec 15 08:54:23 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:54:23 -0500
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 06:34:02PM -0600
References: <29b51f527fa6f2d5942269d3a2cd2412@dizum.com> 
Message-ID: <20011215115423.A20515@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 06:34:02PM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> Examples please?  "All the time"?  I have *never once* heard of such an act
> by an LEO, and my range of experience is both personal and anecdotal.  The
> more usual act is that the  will first offer a plea, and
> if rebuffed, will "decline to prosecute".  Some time thereafter, the former

Good points, all. It may be instructive to consider the case of the
Maryland police officer who was convicted and sentenced to 10 years
recently for turning a police dog loose on an unresisting suspect.

Instead of distancing themselves from this sadistic officer, and saying
that such behavior is beyond the pale, her fellow officers protested
and declared a work "slowdown." The union was all for it.

Don't look for a fast response from 911 calls, I guess, if you live
in certain Maryland suburbs of DC.

The Washington Post wrote an editorial condemning this thuggish tactic
on the part of "Maryland's finest."

-Declan




From mch at againstwar.org  Sat Dec 15 12:47:02 2001
From: mch at againstwar.org (Mark Henderson)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:47:02 -0800
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. vetoes Mideast peace move - December 15, 2001
In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:29:47AM -0600
References: <3C1B6296.D550746A@ssz.com> 
Message-ID: <20011215124702.A8440@againstwar.org>


On Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:29:47AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/12/15/un.resolution/
> 
>    "It was the second time in less than a year that the United States had
>    used its veto power to effectively kill a resolution that would create
>    a monitoring mechanism for the protection of Palestinian civilians."
> 
> And Joe FortyOunce doesn't understand why the world wants us dead...

A particularly powerful article by Robert Fisk on his beating in 
Afghanistan.

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=109257




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 17:53:14 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:53:14 +1100
Subject: My week in Manila:Dial M for Mayhem.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215125153.00a53ca0@pop.useoz.com>


Dial M for Mayhem
Abduction,melodrama and murder: Just another week in "Arroyo's greater 
Manila".
Arrive at the Hyatt Regency in Manila and find a sign saying,"Absolutely no 
firearms permitted
in the hotel lobby."Cast your mind back to central America 15 years 
ago.Smell of desperation,
smell of fear,smell of desperate basket case.The start of a sobering week 
in depressionville.
It begins with the announcement in mondays papers that the communist new 
peoples armies killed
18 govt soldiers in an ambush.Next day,Nur misuari,the former Moro National 
Liberation Front
leader,has abandoned his commitment to a 1996 peace treaty and launched a 
military attack in
Mindanao in which 100 die.
These appalling headlines certainly make Manila an edgy place for the most 
heavily comped scribbler.
Its the madness and the melodrama inside city limits that tip the most 
phlegmatic over the edge.
The combination,spanish machismo and American gun culture gives new 
meanings to "scary","wild",
and "violent."Day 3 in Metro sees a senior official of Comelec the govt 
body that runs elections,
gunned down in her car in the middle of the downtown business 
district.Straightaway,and with
no worries about libel,rules of evidence or the presumption of 
innocence,the press IDs another
Comlec official with whom she was having a dispute as prime suspect.
The city was already hypnotised and agog with the court spectacle in the 
murder case of the
screen goddess,Nida Blanca.An alleged professional hitman confessed he had 
been hired to kill
Blanca by her husband.This took the form of a screaming,crying and fainting 
performance that
was then retracted,exonerating the husband,and going on to accuse the 
police of torture.
When the violencia is not so much melodramatic as just plain crazy-like the 
man who was killed
for an appalling Karaoke performance.The cities karaoke bars had been 
removing "My Way"from
the playlists as it provoked so many disputes.
Manila has been dubbed the kidnap capital of Asia.Trad targets are the 
children of chinese
businesspeople.The families normally pay a lot of money and dont expect 
much help from the
police.The trend is now beyond the chinese,this reflects hard economic 
times and a general
breakdown of law and order.Much kidnappings now widely believed involve 
serving or former
members of the military and police.Now even mestizo Filipinos of moderate 
wealth take armed
bodygaurds on their morning constitutionals in their walled and gated suburbs.
The subject is fascinating in that some kidnappers now 
sub-contract,snatching someone to resell
to a bigger outfit in order to mark up the ransom several orders of 
magnitude and muddy the trail.
While the philippines suffered the greatest thief in known human hirstory 
with ferdinand Marcos,
it recovered slowly up till fresh disaster struck in the form of hurricane 
Erap.The full catastrophe
once more until he was finally thrown out.The only irony of this plundering 
hack actors demise
is the realisation that the only thing he did moderately well was keep a 
lid on the Manila pressure
cooker.Conspiracy theorists,of which there are a superabundance,say Eraps 
'tough guy',police
chief,"Ping"Lascon,swapped bribes with the organized crimelords to 
accomplish just that.
Expanded graft opportunities arose for both in other parts of the 
economy.Its hard to convey
just how obssed Manila is with rumour.Everyone's constantly fiddling with 
their cellphones.
They send more and receive more text messages than anywhere else in the 
world.Mobs are rioting,
attacks on foreign enclaves are imminent,the next coups just begun,Ping 
will be dictator,any thing
and everything fuels the e-mail rumour mills.The 'end of hirstory'is not a 
concept expected to gain
much traction in this city that seems to be being imagined by a cyberpunk 
novelist.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec 15 13:31:22 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:31:22 -0800
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. vetoes Mideast peace move - December 15, 2001
In-Reply-To: <20011215124702.A8440@againstwar.org>
References: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:29:47AM -0600
Message-ID: <3C1B50AA.15681.113932F@localhost>


    --
On 15 Dec 2001, at 12:47, Mark Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:29:47AM -0600, measl at mfn.org 
> wrote: A particularly powerful article by Robert Fisk on 
> his beating in Afghanistan.
>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=109257

It is obvious they did not beat him enough.  Let us hope they 
do it again, and the next time do a proper job of it.

For example he still has his eyes. If they took out his eyes,
he could see better than he does now. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     2CyZSl4GZt/1Pyb603/KUlUuGVs0Y5ib4QnvlVLU
     4/EDdIUc2oSXOCfQHuBY9OlVxYY2rhig4Nz4EJZN6




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 18:36:12 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:36:12 +1100
Subject: bin Laden tape reliability 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215130526.00a55890@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Perhaps, but I'll take the position it's real until more evidence 
appears to the contrary. Peter Trei

Agreed,I too was surprised by the implosions.Long live USAMA BIN 
LADEN,VIVA! Death to the fascist snakes of...etc.

 From a previous post by peter trei.

 >>participation in the list does not imply acceptance of any particular 
stance, attitude, or agenda towards crypto, stego, or government or lack 
thereof. The only thing which can really be said about subscribers in 
general is that they think crypto is >>worth discussing.

You might enjoy http://www.viopac.com/ and as Tim said way back round 
97,"We'll know we've succeeded when by our
direct action we are regarded as terrorists." (rough quote)




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Fri Dec 14 22:10:09 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:10:09 +0800
Subject: My week in Manila:Dial M for Mayhem.
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215125153.00a53ca0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C1AE941.34AE3449@mozcom.com>


You need to get away from Manila, Mattd. It just ain't the Philippines,
any more than Paris is France.

Also: give yourself some time for acclimation before writing. I'm glad I
didn't see this piece in '96 before I first came here, because I would
have had a completely false impression of the place.

We notice the things we're not used to and forget the multiple instances
of violence we see in our hometown news in the States because we're used
to that. Perspective is needed.

Marc de Piolenc
living peacefully and happily on Mindanao

mattd wrote:
> 
> Dial M for Mayhem
> Abduction,melodrama and murder: Just another week in "Arroyo's greater
> Manila".





From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 19:20:32 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:20:32 +1100
Subject: Weasls ripped my flesh 2
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215141347.00a5aa40@pop.useoz.com>


 >>It's possible that mattd is actually Gary Hart sans charisma.

Thanks weasl,thanks a hell of a lot.You just blew me out of the water. Yes 
I am and I beg the Office of homeland security
to immediately begin the crypto-pedo blitz.Its the only way to dampen 
crypto-anarchy and avoid massive future shock.

DO IT TOM,DO IT NOW!




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 14 20:35:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:35:13 +1100
Subject: : Re: bin Laden tape reliability 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215150915.00a1cda0@pop.useoz.com>


jya>>To mattd, if you've got emit stuff about *illing the *rez, be sure to 
post a real world contact address for those who want to take you up on it. 
UBL might want to send a few bucks.

This is the real world.Right here,right now.The pile is about to go 
critical.I hope those warez raids were a warm up.
In ancien regime france the body of the king was sacred.A subject that 
approached to close risked having their skin ripped off in a messy public 
execution.Theres a detailed description of one in the recent book,"Europe" 
(a hirstory book)
The situationists wanted to extend the concept of the sanctity of louis's 
person to everyone in france.(no global strategy)
Absolutist nonsense like 'protected person/s got the chop in France.It 
should also in your fair land as I pledge 100 us $
to be pooled with others and paid to the closest guess,made anonymously 
here or at www.indymedia.org or any no.
of BBS that are one step ahead of the donut munching flatfeet.This guess 
being the closest as to the permanent retirement from politics of one 
arbusto E Nueman.Greasy oil money is as good as anyones.If UBL chips in he 
may ease
off on the meteorite's,I assume he will want to stay anonymous.As national 
borders are not even speed bumps Im safe in
saying KILLTHEPRESIDENT till the roo's come home even if rick walkinshaw 
knows where I live.FUCK the SS,FUCK BUSH and FUCK your SHITTY CRAPHOLE 
KUNTRY.luv you jya and say hi to deb,did she get my note?




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec 15 16:40:33 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:40:33 -0800
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. vetoes Mideast peace move - December 15, 2001
In-Reply-To: <20011215124702.A8440@againstwar.org>
References: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:29:47AM -0600
Message-ID: <3C1B7D01.28796.1C0C6E0@localhost>


    --
On 15 Dec 2001, at 12:47, Mark Henderson wrote:
> A particularly powerful article by Robert Fisk on his
> beating in Afghanistan.
>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=109257

Someone who is too blind to recognize evil when it heaves a
rock at his head needs some more rocks in the face to improve
his vision.

Those pashtun were not enraged because Israel dispossesses
and mistreats palestinians in a far away country.  They are
enraged because they cannot dispossess and murder their
neighbors.

Like any sensible person far away from either Palestine or
New York, they have little concern for the crimes of either
Bin Laden or Sharon.

However a short while ago, the Taliban was slaughtering
various minority groups, throwing their bodies into wells to
poison the ground water, bulldozing their houses and
irrigation ditches, cutting down their mulberry trees and
bulldozing their vines.  Now they cannot do that any more.  I
hope Fisk goes back there for some more beatings. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     rDzhp9vaztxu9LGuvurmu0k3hJGMEwZ/BQIA3uac
     42/nbpsiaeGccDCbwrQHrHwPPE/D5RZZri3JQ2E7q




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Dec 15 15:03:12 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:03:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Baby Bush equates drugs and terrorism.
Message-ID: 



"it^s so important for Americans to know
that the traffic in drugs finances the work of terror, sustaining
terrorists -- (applause) -- that terrorists use drug profits to fund
their cells to commit acts of murder.  If you quit drugs, you join the
fight against terror in America."


I wonder when  Shrub will issue the arrest warrant for Daddy...

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:41:11 -0800
From: Nora Callahan 
To: november-l at november.org
Subject: Nov-L: BUSH: "If you quit [illegal] drugs, you join the fight
    against terror in  America"

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
December 14, 2001 

President Empowers Communities in Fight Against Illegal Drug Abuse 
REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT IN SIGNING DRUG-FREE COMMUNITIES ACT
REAUTHORIZATION BILL
Omni Shoreham Hotel Washington, D.C.
 
REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT IN SIGNING DRUG-FREE COMMUNITIES ACT
REAUTHORIZATION BILL 
125 P.M. EST 

PRESIDENT Thank you all very much. It�s an honor to be here. Let me
first say, we�re winning. (Applause.) We�ve got a new war, and I want
you to know your government is doing everything we can to defeat those
who hate freedom. We will defeat them abroad, thanks to a fabulous
military. (Applause.) We are patient, we�re relentless because our cause
is just and it is noble. Plus we�re doing everything we can at home to
prevent the enemy from hitting us again. 

There�s another war at home, too, and that�s to win the war against the
scourge of drugs. (Applause.) I�m so glad�it�s an honor to be introduced
by America�s new Director of National Drug Policy Council. John Walters
brings a passionate concern and a strong background to the fight against
drugs. 

In the late 1980s, he was one of the architects of the federal
government�s most successful antidrug policies. And he�ll lead our
administration�s effort with determination and intelligence, with
resolve and moral clarity. I am proud to have John as a member of my
Cabinet. (Applause.) 

And I�m honored to speak to the Community Antidrug Coalitions of
America. I want to thank you all for being here. You�re a part of
America�s armies of compassion, examples of service and citizenship. You
restore hope to lives, and safety to neighborhoods. All Americans admire
your dedication. And the bill that I will soon sign will strengthen your
work. (Applause.)

We share an important commitment. For the sake of our children and for
the good of our nation, we will reduce drug use in America. I want to
thank General Art Dean for being the CEO of this important group of
soldiers in the armies of compassion. (Applause.) I want to thank the
three members of the United States Congress who stand up here with me
today, leaders in this important effort. Not only leaders in Washington,
but as you�ll soon hear, leaders in the communities in which they live.
Thank you so much for being here. (Applause.) 

Drug use threatens everything, everything that is best about our
country. It breaks the bonds between parents and children. It turns
productive citizens into addicts. It transforms schools into places of
violence and chaos. It makes playgrounds into crime scenes. It supports
gangs here at home. And abroad, it�s so important for Americans to know
that the traffic in drugs finances the work of terror, sustaining
terrorists -- (applause) -- that terrorists use drug profits to fund
their cells to commit acts of murder.  If you quit drugs, you join the
fight against terror in America.
(Applause.) 

And above all, we must reduce drug use for one great moral reason Over
time, drugs rob men, women, and children of their dignity, and of their
character. Illegal drugs are the enemies of ambition and hope. And when
we fight against drugs, we fight for the souls of our fellow Americans.
(Applause.) 

In this struggle, we know what works. We must aggressively and
unabashedly teach our children the dangers of drugs. We must
aggressively treat addiction wherever we find it. And we must
aggressively enforce the laws against drugs at our borders and in our
communities. (Applause.) 

America cannot pick and choose between these goals. All are necessary if
any are to be effective. And my administration will pursue these goals
with energy and focus and strong commitment.  It�s important for the
future of this country that we do so.  This comprehensive approach has
been tried before, and it has worked. From the mid �80s, to the early
�90s, drug use amongst high school seniors was reduced each and every
year. Progress was steady, and over time, dramatic. Yet recently, we�ve
lost ground in this important battle. 

According to the most recent data, the percentage of 12th graders using
an illicit drug in the previous month rose from less than 15 percent in
1992 to about 25 percent in the year 2000. Over the same period, the
percentage of 10th graders using an illicit drug in the previous month
rose from 11 percent to more than 22 percent. Marijuana use amongst 8th
graders rose, while their perceptions of the dangers of marijuana use
fell. There was a similar decrease in the perception of risk involved
with LSD and powder and crack cocaine.  Behind these numbers are
countless personal tragedies. And my administration will not be
indifferent to them. We must return the fight against drugs to the
center of our national agenda.  (Applause.) 

And as we win this fight, America will be a more hopeful place. And as
we battle against a major, significant problem in America, and show
progress, this country�s promise will be more available to more of our
citizens. 

It�s a national imperative that we win. And I understand that you all
are amongst the most important allies we have to achieve this goal.
You�ve got a track record of success. You sponsor drug education
programs, and youth summits, and parent training courses.  You support
drug intervention programs, and foster great counseling services. You�re
helping to build a culture of responsibility, one that respects the law,
one that teaches our children right from wrong, and one that strengthens
our commitments to our fellow citizens.

In Troy, Michigan, the Troy Community Coalition for the Prevention of
Drug and Alcohol Abuse is building leadership skills to help teens to
say no to drugs and alcohol. As a result, alcohol use among high
schoolers has declined in dramatic fashion.  I want to thank Sandy
Levin, the Congressman from the great state of Michigan, who is on the
stage with us, for helping lead that effort. And I want to thank the
good people from Troy, Michigan, for standing up and doing what�s right
for your community.  (Applause.) 

I�m particularly proud that the coalition�s leader, Mary Ann Solberg,
has agreed to join John Walters as the Deputy Director of the National
Drug Control Policy. (Applause.) Now that you have your uniform on, go
get them. (Laughter.) 
Also on the stage with us is Congressman Rob Portman, who is the
President of the Coalition for a Drug-Free Greater Cincinnati, a winner
of CADCA�s Outstanding Coalition Award. I understand his program well
because I saw it first hand in Cincinnati. I want to thank Rob for his
leadership. 

I appreciate this coalition�s practical approach, by providing tips to
parents on how to deal with drug use, provide financial incentives to
businesses that have drug-free workplace programs. And the most
aggressive antidrug media campaign is in Cincinnati�for a market its
size. The result is that for the first time in a decade, teen drug use
in greater Cincinnati is beginning to level off. They�re making great
progress in that important city. It goes to show what happens when our
nation invigorates the grass roots to deal with a problem that we must
solve, early, before it is too late. (Applause.) And also on this stage
is the fine United States Senator from the state of Iowa, Chuck
Grassley. He�s worked with the people of Iowa to begin what they call
the Face it Together Coalition, the first ever statewide antidrug
coalition led by a United States senator. The coalition has a
comprehensive workplace drug education program. It works with coalitions
around the state for best practices, for community based antidrug
efforts. It conducts workshops to train faith-based leaders on effective
drug prevention strategies.  Senator Grassley, I appreciate you taking
the lead.  (Applause.) It�s a hard job being a senator, but it�s easy to
forget the community responsibilities when you get elected to such a
high office as senator. And yet this Senator never forgot where he came
from. This Senator asked a question, what can I do�just like you asked
that question�what can I do, to improve the lives of the citizens of a
state he so dearly loves? And he chose to fight, stand side by side with
the good citizens of Iowa to fight drug use. And Mr. Senator, thank you
for your leadership.  (Applause.) 

I�m so happy to be able to sign an important piece of legislation in
your presence. The bill I sign today increases the total amount of funds
authorized for programs like the ones we just described from more than
$50 million a year in the current fiscal year to nearly $100 million by
the year 2007. (Applause.) It allows coalitions to reapply for grants
even after five years, as long -- (applause). Make sure you meet your
matching fund requirement. (Laughter and applause.)

It instructs Director Walters to focus the greatest resources on areas
of the greatest needs, by giving priority to coalitions that serve
economically-disadvantaged neighborhoods. The reauthorization bill
creates a new class of grants that will help established coalitions
assist new ones, assist new folks on how to battle this scourge called
drug use. (Applause.) 

And the bill creates a National Community Antidrug Coalition Institute
to provide education and training and technical assistance to coalitions
all throughout our country. (Applause.) 

There are other steps we must take. Many of you are working with
faith-based institutions, because you�ve seen the power of faith to
transform lives. Last month, the National Center on Addiction and
Substance Abuse at Columbia University, led by Joe Califano, released a
report on substance abuse, religion and spirituality. The report found
that religion and spirituality can play a powerful role in the
prevention and treatment of substance abuse, and on the maintenance of
sobriety. 

My armies of compassion legislation will provide support to faith-based
institutions working to prevent and treat drug abuse. The House passed
this legislation. I urge the Senate to do so. This nation must not fear
faith-based programs, we must welcome them.  (Applause.) We must welcome
anybody who is willing to join in this important goal and in this
important cause.  We�ve got a responsibility here in Washington to lead
the fight against drug abuse. But we understand here that one of the
best ways to do so is to support the people in the neighborhoods, on the
streets, the community coalitions which are truly the front line in our
battle to save people�s lives. 

You�ve devoted your lives to the well-being of others, and for this I�m
incredibly grateful. On behalf of all Americans, thank you for your
compassion; thank you for your concern; thank you for your love for your
country and your fellow human being. 

And now it is my honor to invite Director Walters and General Dean,
along with the sponsors of this important piece of legislation to join
me as I sign this bill. May God bless you all, and may God bless
America. (Applause.) 
END 145

P.M. EST 
Return to this article at
http//www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011214-2.html 


-- 
The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit
organization, your gifts are tax deductible. 
You can send your donation to: 

The November Coalition  
795 South Cedar 
Colville, WA 99114
--------
November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the November Coalition.
To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a
message to november-L-request at november.org containing the command
"unsubscribe"





From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Sat Dec 15 08:11:09 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:11:09 +0100
Subject: Feds Go Cow Tipping...
Message-ID: 


> "We are confident that the government will limit the use of this
> technology only to targets relevant to legitimate investigations," he
> added, further underscoring the cult's faith in federal law
> enforcement organisations. "The FBI has a long history of following
> Title 18 to the letter."
    
     I'm having a hard time believing this isn't a put on. 
If not, everyone at cDc should be hunted down and made, like 
their name -- dead!




From measl at mfn.org  Sat Dec 15 16:59:51 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:59:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Americans like killing, but hate being killed
Message-ID: 



What's funny is how fast this would change if we were just to get a few more
bodybags back...


http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/15/ret.assassination.poll/index.html

(CNN) -- A majority of Americans support giving government agents the power
to assassinate terrorists despite a U.S. policy forbidding such actions,
according to a Newsweek poll released Saturday. 

In addition, more than three-quarters of 1,003 people surveyed -- 78 percent
-- said they favored using military force against Saddam Hussein's forces in
Iraq, with 75 percent supporting operations against terrorist targets in
other Middle Eastern nations and 66 percent backing those in countries
outside the region. 


-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec 15 21:08:19 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:08:19 -0800
Subject: Tailgunner jamesd
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011216124936.00a60c80@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C1BBBC3.6389.2B5ED66@localhost>


    --
On 16 Dec 2001, at 12:58, mattd wrote:
> Fisk is one of those rare beasts,a truthful journalist.

I was filled with rage when I read him piously declare that
he understands why they're angry and doesn't hold it against
them at all.  Such saintly piety reminds me of Heng Samrin.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     J63BZzqXPVBJmWdrz3vm709013QqYTmw4RNy/zBq
     4A3gw7VjeEIcANku5ESh9gMZ4dJ6uc9BWPeos+upU




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 15 02:18:23 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:18:23 +1100
Subject: My week in Madness:Dial P for plagiarist 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215205755.00a20860@pop.useoz.com>


That piece was a gonzo rip off of one in one of those 'flick through and 
flingem',weekend supplements.It had a phat jpg of a DoCoMo style cellphone 
with a wicked little 'kidnapped' SMS graphic.Reminded me of my assasinphone 
that ticks over like  a jeepney meter with pooled pledges.
Thanks greg sheriden,asia hack for rupert murdoch.I jazzed it up a little 
between sips of long island tea.Murdoch reckons satellites are hazardous to 
the health of totalitarian regimes,btw.Wonder what he thinks of AP.(1$ anyone?)
It pays to get your news from independant media these days,I think.I buy 
the dead tree versions for tv/computer guides
and weekend magazines/lit crits.3 times a week.Mindanao hey? We got a 
little international terrior conspricy goen here!
Whats the position of roe v wade there? Right to choose?
I heard Catholic G.Arroyo's opposed to divorce.
Shurley som mishtake.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 15 02:42:16 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:42:16 +1100
Subject: OSD: Reputations R us
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011215212330.00a210e0@pop.useoz.com>


Rust never sleeps;Reputations by inference,negative inference.As an 
experiment Id like to ask ya'all to pledge
any amount up to 10 $ to predict the retirement from the list of your least 
fave poster's

eg.I, anonymous samoan attorney,pledge 1 $ to see that nasty little weasl 
guy get his just desserts.
AND
1$ to put jamesd out of his misery...and so on,say 4$ each on faustine and 
nomen.

At least as reliable as doling out high ratings and possibly less chance 
of  error.We're often more honest in our visceral hatreds aren't we? These 
negative ratings would float and give a rough guesstimate for newbies as to 
the pariahs here.

Operation soft drill...we don't just kill people...we vouch for them and 
guarantee them with RUST. (RusTechnology)




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Dec 15 22:16:53 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:16:53 -0800
Subject: Terrifying PGP
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


The Portuguese newspaper Expresso, in reporting yesterday
on various documents discovered in Kandahar (including a
plan to Daisy Cutter London) says there was a manual for PGP. 

The paper commented that Congress had tried to ban PGP 
because it might be used by terrorists.

Wonder if there are publics keys in the registries for AF?

Better, will Zimmermann at long last face a tribunal for
perfidy?




From jya at pipeline.com  Sat Dec 15 22:21:07 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:21:07 -0800
Subject: Bin Laden Video Sting
Message-ID: 


The Observer tomorrow reports that the bin Laden
video is likely the result of a CIA sting operation,
arranged through the Saudi sheik who was induced
by one or more intel agencies to lure bin Laden into
a picture perfect setting and induce him brag.

The report notes that the sheik appeared to be aware
of the video but not bin Laden.

It goes on to say that the tape looks very much like
tapes of Mafia stings by the FBI.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Dec 15 20:32:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:32:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, An Metet wrote:

> > Remailer operators should have permanent encrypted links to one another,
> > with constant (or at least message-uncorrelated) traffic volumes.
> > They can still use latency, message pools, and other features, of course.
> > But when it comes time to deliver messages to the next remailer in the
> > list, that should be done with a reliable and direct connection that
> > doesn't have to depend on the vagaries of sendmail, procmail, Microsoft
> > servers or the many other layers that get in the way.  This would both
> > increase the reliability of the remailer network and improve its security
> > by hiding inter-remailer traffic.
> 
> Great idea! Cypherpunks write code. Let us know when you have something we
> can look at.

Plan 9 OS:

http://plan9.bell-labs.com

Hangar 18 Distributed Computing Co-Op:

http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18

A Plan 9 based tool we hope to have available this summer;

igor

A remailer for Plan 9


One of the primary values of the Internet is email. It provides a reliable
and consistent link across time and space. It is the proto-typical killer
app. However, to use email effectively there should be two additional
features. We don't promise more don't exist. The first feature is the
ability to reflect or remail a single email to many recipients. The second
is to strip identifying header information from the sender prior to the
subscriber getting it.

igor does not use 'embedded routing commands' like many other anonymous
remailer packages. We believe that tampering or altering the body of the
email is simply wrong. We offer two way to input data into igor. The first
is through Subject: line escaped commands and the second is through
additional header files. An example of each is,

Subject: Some title or other [igor: some_commands, must_come_last]

or,

X-igor: some_commands

This allows the first remailer to strip the command data out and then
process the email as if igor had never been involved. igor supports limited
routing selection, which is intended to make traffic analysis harder. igor
sends individual emails embedded in igor-specific header info to eliminate
as much interaction with the email itself. All inter-igor traffic is
encrypted with PK's managed by the Evil Geniuses.

Route Commands (ie igor: * * ...):

strip			Strip the From: header
zombie			Strip the From: header and replace with
			From: Walking Dead
route#			Route the message through # other igor nodes,
			not selectable by the user, where # is from 1 to 3.
			route0 is assumed and means send to recipient
			directly
cover			Provide cover traffic for each outbound email by
			sending all know igors a single bogus email.
			This provides n-copy cover traffic.
subscribe $		Subscribe to mailing list $
who $			Who is subscribed to list $?
info $			Provide info on list $
help			Request an info-help file


igor Configuration Parameters (igor.conf):

MyPubKey		This remailers public key, non-traffic related
			encryption key. Used for encrypting traffic or
			data.

MyOwnKey		This remailers private key, non-traffic related
			de-cryption key. Used for decrypting traffic
			or data.

MyPubRing		My public key ring, this contains a mapping of each
			'authorized' igor remailer we will operate with. We
			use this key to encrypt traffic TO the listed
			remailers. There are no line length limits.

			e.g.

			igor at foo.bar#242ds032fdsasetewdvdsasdfewwere...
			igor at bar.org#2303210343203828353234898324397...			
			cypherpunks at ssz.com#23XD24398dDWSc35K2)3C2#d...
			...

MyOwnRing		My private key ring, this contains a mapping of each
			'authorized' igor remailer we will operate with. We
			use this key to decrypt traffic FROM the listed
			remailers.

GHeader: $		Place this at the beginning of all emails through
			this remailer

GFooter: $		Place this at the foot of all emails through this
			remailer

Open: *, *, *, ...	These mailing lists will provide all info to any
			reqeustor

List: *, *, *, ...      These mailing lists will provide info only to a
			current subscriber

Close: *, *, *, ...	These mailing lists will not provide any info

Verify: *, *, *, ...	These mailing lists always verify each operation
			through the Evil Geniuses.

ArchDir $		The archive files should go in the $ directory

Archive: *, *, *, ...	These mailing lists will create an archive file,
			#.arc





From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Dec 15 23:03:33 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 23:03:33 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215225602.04380c48@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 10:39 PM 12/11/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 10:07 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
>
>As we (again) discussed at this past Saturday's physical meeting, in Santa 
>Cruz, a sparse set of users and messages is almost a toy system. Remailer 
>traffic needs to go up by a large factor, whether actual messages or dummy 
>messages. Remailers need to be more robust (uptime, strong policies)  and 
>need to be incentivized (paid remailers, an old topic).

During your "rant" on re-mailers I mentioned the desirability of using 
popular P2P services in conjunction with remailers, possibly as middleman 
nodes.  Len pointed out the problems with re-mailer system stability if P2P 
clients were used as they come and go.  During the break there was a short 
discussion of using the P2P clients to generate cover traffic on 
remailers.  This should be simple and involve no risk to those running the 
clients.

steve




From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Sat Dec 15 20:17:43 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 23:17:43 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


> Remailer operators should have permanent encrypted links to one another,
> with constant (or at least message-uncorrelated) traffic volumes.
> They can still use latency, message pools, and other features, of course.
> But when it comes time to deliver messages to the next remailer in the
> list, that should be done with a reliable and direct connection that
> doesn't have to depend on the vagaries of sendmail, procmail, Microsoft
> servers or the many other layers that get in the way.  This would both
> increase the reliability of the remailer network and improve its security
> by hiding inter-remailer traffic.

Great idea! Cypherpunks write code. Let us know when you have something we
can look at.




From 98it420better at mail.com  Sun Dec 16 17:09:18 2001
From: 98it420better at mail.com (Biggus Dingus)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 05:09:18 -2000
Subject: Isn't It Time You Solved Your "little" Problem?                    14399
Message-ID: <000072a860ac$0000170d$00003c6a@mx00.earthlink.net>


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___________________________________



Come meestah tahleeban, turn ovah Bin Laahdin!




From Jdean at lsuhsc.edu  Sun Dec 16 07:18:33 2001
From: Jdean at lsuhsc.edu (Dean, James)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 09:18:33 -0600
Subject: FW: Re: bin Laden tape reliability
Message-ID: <4DDCE8648ECDD11187910060979C535802BCDC9A@lsumcbolivar.lsuhsc.edu>


> Perhaps it wasn't found in an abandoned house at all, but was born
> somewhere in the DC suburbs.

Do videotapes preserve the frequency of the fluctuations of 
incandescent lamps caused by the frequency of the electric
current?  Washington DC is at 60 Hz but according to 
http://kropla.com/electric2.htm, Afghanistan is at 50.




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Dec 16 09:37:30 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 09:37:30 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215225602.04380c48@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011216090714.04443a70@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 12:22 PM 12/16/2001 +0100, Eugene Leitl wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Steve Schear wrote:
>
> > During your "rant" on re-mailers I mentioned the desirability of using
> > popular P2P services in conjunction with remailers, possibly as middleman
> > nodes.  Len pointed out the problems with re-mailer system stability if P2P
> > clients were used as they come and go.  During the break there was a short
>
>P2P nodes are ephemeral, the content is not. A short message hop from node
>to node is in the second range. Assuming the message doesn't sit on the
>node too long (running danger of it being pulled) and there are multiple
>redundant messages in transit (you wanted more idle traffic? here's is
>your idle traffic) the probability of delivery should be higher than the
>current remailers'.
>
> > discussion of using the P2P clients to generate cover traffic on
> > remailers.  This should be simple and involve no risk to those running the
> > clients.
>
>Ask Google for XML-RPC and Freenet and/or Mojo Nation.

I worked with Jim on Mojo, so I have some first hand experience.  The P2P 
systems I was referring to are the current popular crop (e.g., LimeWire and 
Morpheus) since they have the largest and broadest user populations.

steve




From mv at cdc.gov  Sun Dec 16 10:00:28 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:00:28 -0800
Subject: Got Tanzanite?
Message-ID: <3C1CE13C.265366E@senate.gov>


At 05:03 PM 12/15/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>"it^s so important for Americans to know
>that the traffic in drugs finances the work of terror, sustaining
>terrorists -- (applause) -- that terrorists use drug profits to fund
>their cells to commit acts of murder.  If you quit drugs, you join the
>fight against terror in America."

And when I sampled a block of hash with KABUL in gold leaf in the 80's,
I was being patriotic, helping to get rid of the Commies.




From mv at cdc.gov  Sun Dec 16 10:10:52 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:10:52 -0800
Subject: OBL's public key
Message-ID: <3C1CE3AC.4FD38FEB@cdc.gov>


At 10:16 PM 12/15/01 -0800, John Young wrote:
>
>Wonder if there are publics keys in the registries for AF?

If no one has already done this, the humor value in publishing a public
key
under names like OBL would certainly collect some interesting messages.

It would also demonstrate something about the (lack of) value of
a claimed (but personally unverified) association of a Real Meat Person
and a key.
(A good prankster would of course create other IDs which would
vouch for OBLs.. much like when a CIA agent gives out a number which
will
vouch for his employment in a benign industry..)

----
Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Dec 16 08:29:52 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:29:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Russian Duma Adopts Law On Digital Signatures (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:38:40 -0500
From: "R. A. Hettinga" 
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List , dcsb at ai.mit.edu,
    cryptography at wasabisystems.com, DIGSIG at LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU,
    cyberia-l at listserv.aol.com
Subject: Russian Duma Adopts Law On Digital Signatures

http://www.rferl.com/newsline/2001/12/1-RUS/rus-141201.asp

DUMA ADOPTS LAW ON DIGITAL SIGNATURES
The Duma adopted on final reading on 13 December the bill legalizing the
use of electronic digital signatures and giving them the same status as
conventional signatures, "Kommersant-Daily" reported. However, the bill
recognizes the validation of digital signature only after an original
document has first been signed with a conventional signature. According to
Duma Committee for Taxes and Duties deputy head Ashot Egiazaryan, the bill
is intended to speed up the work of Russian stock exchanges and, in
general, to reduce expenses for mailing documents. VY
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'



---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Dec 16 08:31:58 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:31:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: update.568 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:33:49 -0500 (EST)
From: AIP listserver 
To: physnews-mailing at aip.org
Subject: update.568


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 568  December 7, 2001   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein,
and James Riordon
     
ULTRASOUND SCANS ARE AUDIBLE TO A FETUS,
[SSZ: text deleted]

TRACKING DNA MOTION WITH PICOMETER ACCURACY. 
[SSZ: text deleted]

BREAKING A QUANTUM SYMMETRY ON THE TABLETOP.
A recurrent theme in art and science, the concept of symmetry has
become a powerful scientific tool for the analysis of physical
systems.  However, under special circumstances, a "quantum
anomaly" occurs: the laws of quantum physics break a system's
apparent symmetry.  After a long search, a research group (Horacio
Camblong, University of San Francisco, camblong at usfca.edu, and
collaborators at Universidad Nacional de La Plata, Argentina) has
found a relatively simple example of a quantum anomaly: the
interaction of a polar molecule with an electron.  A polar molecule,
despite being neutral, has a permanent separation of electric
charge--a dipole.  This dipole produces an electric field, which can
capture electrons if it is strong enough.  Can such an arrangement
exist as a stable ion, with its "extra" electron?  The researchers
formulated the answer to this question in the language of
symmetry.  In physics, symmetry means that a system, such as the
molecule-electron arrangement, behaves the same after you
perform a change to it, such as stretching the molecule to larger
scales and making appropriate adjustments to other variables in the
system.  At first glance, the electron-molecule interaction exhibits
a remarkable scale invariance: the system "looks" the same when
viewed from different scales in space and time--at least in a
classical physics description which treats the molecule as a dipole
and the electron as a point of charge.  But this tidy picture breaks
down with a proper treatment of the system, as prescribed by
quantum field theory.  A quantum field theory treatment requires
the process of renormalization, which removes certain
mathematical infinities and inconsistencies from the quantum
approach. This process also makes the molecule's energy levels
discrete or quantized rather than continuous.  Examining the
system this way, the researchers found that the scale invariance
broke down.  In fact, a large body of existing evidence, both
experimental and numerical, supports their conclusion.  While all
other known quantum anomalies occur at high energies (an
example is chiral symmetry in nuclear physics), the work suggests
that quantum symmetry breaking can occur at much lower
energies, in the domain of interacting electrons and molecules. 
(Camblong et al., Physical Review Letters, 26 November 2001.)





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Dec 16 03:22:46 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:22:46 +0100 (MET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215225602.04380c48@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Steve Schear wrote:

> During your "rant" on re-mailers I mentioned the desirability of using
> popular P2P services in conjunction with remailers, possibly as middleman
> nodes.  Len pointed out the problems with re-mailer system stability if P2P
> clients were used as they come and go.  During the break there was a short

P2P nodes are ephemeral, the content is not. A short message hop from node
to node is in the second range. Assuming the message doesn't sit on the
node too long (running danger of it being pulled) and there are multiple
redundant messages in transit (you wanted more idle traffic? here's is
your idle traffic) the probability of delivery should be higher than the
current remailers'.

> discussion of using the P2P clients to generate cover traffic on
> remailers.  This should be simple and involve no risk to those running the
> clients.

Ask Google for XML-RPC and Freenet and/or Mojo Nation.

-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Dec 16 10:49:47 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:49:47 -0600
Subject: DRUDGE REPORT 2001 - USA debates new war plan for Iraq, troops; possible participation of Iran
Message-ID: <3C1CECCB.F4C4097E@ssz.com>


http://www.drudgereport.com/flash6.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 15 17:58:12 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:58:12 +1100
Subject: Tailgunner jamesd
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011216124936.00a60c80@pop.useoz.com>


 >>> wrote: A particularly powerful article by Robert Fisk on > his beating 
in Afghanistan. > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=109257 It 
is obvious they did not beat him enough. Let us hope they do it again, and 
the next time do a proper job of it. For example he still has his eyes. If 
they took out his eyes, he could see >>better than he does now. --digsig 
James A. Donald

Fisk is one of those rare beasts,a truthful journalist.Declan could learn 
from the fisks,pilgers,hunter s thomsons and danny casoleros of this world 
when he's not greasing up to the cato crowd.Maybe if we removed declans 
eyes with the old soft drill.
Jamesd meet jamesk,on this day...1953 -- Veteran James Kutcher, who lost 
both his legs
in WWII, informed his disability was being cut of due
to his membership in the Socialist Workers Party.
Happy now?




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 15 18:07:05 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:07:05 +1100
Subject: Fwd: Tim May: Arch Thief
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011216130345.00a64050@pop.useoz.com>


>Subject: Tim May: Arch Thief
>
>http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu/6805/articles/crypto/cypherpunks/may-virtual-comm.html
>
>Tim May; Dishonest sneak thief,coward and liar.
>
> >>"This essential anarchy is much more common than many think. 
> Anarchy--the absence of a ruler telling one what to do--is common in many 
> walks of life: choice of books to read, movies to see, friends to 
> socialize with, etc. Anarchy does not mean complete freedom--one can, 
> after all, only read the books which someone has written and had 
> published--but it does mean freedom from external coercion. Anarchy as a 
> concept, though, has been tainted by other associations.
> >>First, the "anarchy" here is not the anarchy of popular conception: 
> lawlessness, disorder, chaos, and "anarchy."
>
>Double trouble,ambivalence? sub-conscious guilt,nerves,sweaty 
>fingers?Probably just running off at the mouth.
>
> >>Nor is it the bomb-throwing anarchy of the 19th century "black" 
> anarchists, usually associated with Russia and labor movements.
>
>Gee,I wonder how it got so tainted.
>
>  >>Nor is it the "black flag" anarchy of anarcho-syndicalism and writers 
> such as Proudhon.
>
>Why ever not? The synergies and selling possibilities could be 
>amazing,what a way to bridge the gap between the present and 
>crypto-anarchy.We may see down the page why its "Nor".
>
> >>Rather, the anarchy being spoken of here is the anarchy of "absence of 
> government" (literally, "an arch," without a chief or head).
>
>Nowt to do with Proudon and some bomb throwing russians.Trust me,Im Tim 
>May.Master thief.
>
> >>This is the same sense of anarchy used in "anarchocapitalism," the 
> libertarian free market ideology which promotes voluntary, uncoerced 
> economic transactions.
>
>Grab a snatch and hold it.
>
>  [6] I devised the term crypto anarchy as a pun on crypto, meaning 
> "hidden," on the use of "crypto" in combination with political views (as 
> in Gore Vidal's famous charge to William F. Buckley: "You crypto fascist!"),
>
>Freudian slip,Tim,understandable though,under the circumstances.You crypto 
>fascist.
>
> >>and of course because the technology of crypto makes this form of 
> anarchy possible.
>
>And the alteration of the meaning of words make grand theft 
>anarchy,possible.Also the original libertarian socialist form possible.The 
>form of anarchy Tim May will attempt to murder at any opportunity as a 
>witness to his crime.
>
>  >>The first presentation of this was in a 1988 "Manifesto," whimsically 
> patterned after another famous manifesto.
>
>By the notorious petty bourgeois authoritarian wrecker of the 1st 
>International.Whimsical,Tim and telling.
>
> >>[7] Perhaps a more popularly understandable term, such as "cyber 
> liberty," might have some advantages, but crypto anarchy has its own 
> charm, I think.
>
>Cyber liberty and Im outta here,cant stand the stench.
>It takes a word made their own by people willing to die for it and 
>martyred for it many times in Tims own country and attempts to leech off 
>it.Audacious thievery and knavery on scale ranking May with 
>Goebbals.Charming as Newspeak.
>
> >>And anarchy in this sense does not mean local hierarchies don't exist, 
> nor does it mean that no rulers exist. Groups outside the direct control 
> of local governmental authorities may still have leaders, rulers, club 
> presidents, elected bodies, etc. Many will not, though.
>
>Whoopty doo.Tim invents the anarchist wheel.
>
> >>Politically, virtual communities outside the scope of local 
> governmental control may present problems of law enforcement and tax 
> collection. (Some of us like this aspect.) Avoidance of coerced 
> transactions can mean avoidance of taxes, avoidance of laws saying who 
> one can sell to and who one can't, and so forth. It is likely that many 
> will be >>unhappy that some are using cryptography to avoid laws designed 
> to control behavior.
>
>I like the word anarchy so Im going to steal it from its rightful 
>owners,no one will catch me,Im invisible!
>
> >>National borders are becoming more transparent than ever to data. A 
> flood of bits crosses the borders of most developed countries--phone 
> lines, cables, fibers, satellite up/downlinks, and millions of diskettes, 
> tapes, CDs, etc. >Stopping data at the borders is less than hopeless.
>
>Stealing anarchy and loading it up with potted ayn randian,heinleinian 
>lead weight is whats hopeless,mate.
>
> >>Finally, the ability to move data around the world at will, the ability 
> to communicate to remote sites at will, means that a kind of "regulatory 
> arbitrage" can be used to avoid legal roadblocks. For example, remailing 
> into the U.S. from a site in the Netherlands...whose laws apply? (If one 
> thinks that U.S. laws should apply to sites in the Netherlands, does 
> Iraqi law apply in the U.S.? And so on.)
>
>Drone on and on and on all you want,your not going to get far with a 
>rebadged knock off of "anarchy"How do YOU sleep?
>
> >>This regulatory arbitrage is also useful for avoiding the welter of 
> laws and regulations which operations in one country may face, including 
> the "deep pockets" lawsuits so many in the U.S. face. Moving operations 
> on the Net outside a >>litigious jurisdiction is one step to reduce this 
> business liability. Like Swiss banks, but different.
>
>Money,money,money must be funny...in a rich mans dreams.Still theres hope 
>because later in conclusions Tim says
>..."extremely dark things like anonymous markets for killings" may be 
>possible.We live in hope,Tim,hope and ANARCHY!




From Gratuit at MarocMail.com  Sun Dec 16 13:07:33 2001
From: Gratuit at MarocMail.com (Gratuit at MarocMail.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:07:33
Subject: Ad Moubarek Sad 
Message-ID: <200112161314.HAA24982@einstein.ssz.com>




                    MarocAnnonces.com

Assalam oualikom,

A l'occasion de Aid El Fitr, http://www.MarocAnnonces.com
vous souhaite Bonne fete.

Webmaster




From measl at mfn.org  Sun Dec 16 11:29:16 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:29:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Got Tanzanite?
In-Reply-To: <3C1CE13C.265366E@senate.gov>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> At 05:03 PM 12/15/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> >"it^s so important for Americans to know
> >that the traffic in drugs finances the work of terror, sustaining
> >terrorists -- (applause) -- that terrorists use drug profits to fund
> >their cells to commit acts of murder.  If you quit drugs, you join the
> >fight against terror in America."
> 
> And when I sampled a block of hash with KABUL in gold leaf in the 80's,
> I was being patriotic, helping to get rid of the Commies.

Ahhhh.... The good old days....

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Sun Dec 16 11:30:29 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:30:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: OBL's public key
In-Reply-To: <3C1CE3AC.4FD38FEB@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: 



Certainly good for a few chuckles at first, but I wouldn't want to be around
after they backtracked the originating IP ;-(


On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> At 10:16 PM 12/15/01 -0800, John Young wrote:
> >
> >Wonder if there are publics keys in the registries for AF?
> 
> If no one has already done this, the humor value in publishing a public
> key
> under names like OBL would certainly collect some interesting messages.
> 
> It would also demonstrate something about the (lack of) value of
> a claimed (but personally unverified) association of a Real Meat Person
> and a key.
> (A good prankster would of course create other IDs which would
> vouch for OBLs.. much like when a CIA agent gives out a number which
> will
> vouch for his employment in a benign industry..)
> 
> ----
> Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Dec 16 05:46:42 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:46:42 +0100 (MET)
Subject: The MS DRM Patent and Freedom to Speak and Think (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:08:13 -0500
From: Seth Johnson 
To: fork at xent.com
Subject: The MS DRM Patent and Freedom to Speak and Think


In his November 6 essay "You're Free to Think,"
(http://davenet.userland.com/2001/11/06/youreFreeToThink),
Dave Winer comments that whatever else happens in the
ongoing, increasing trend towards policing of the public's
right to use information and information technology, we are
still left with the freedom to *think* for ourselves.  He
seemed to me to be offering this comment as a bare source of
solace against the government's increasing intent to control
the prospects of communications technology.

Microsoft's favorable treatment of late caused him to wonder
what kind of deal Bill Gates must have worked out with the
Bush Administration.  He wondered what Microsoft might have
given the government in return for the highly favorable
terms of the settlement that's currently on the table in the
court proceedings against the company, for monopoly
practices in the operating systems arena.

He commented specifically on the current ramifications of
Microsoft's increasing position of power in the operating
systems market:

> Now, they have to get people to upgrade to
> Windows XP -- that's the final step, the one that
> fully turns over the keys to the Internet to them,
> because after XP they can upgrade at will, routing
> through Microsoft-owned servers, altering content,
> and channeling communication through government
> servers. After XP they fully own electronic
> communication media, given the consent decree,
> assuming it's approved by the court.

Now, it has just come to light that Microsoft has been
awarded a software "patent" for a "Digital Rights
Management" operating system.

This development shows us exactly where we stand now.
Microsoft doesn't have to offer anything to the government;
it has only to hold possession of a patent covering the
"DRM" elements of its latest OS, thereby providing an almost
absolutely assured trajectory toward establishing the terms
by which the public's ability to communicate digital
information will be controlled.

Please see the message I am posting below, from the CYBERIA
email list, which quotes from the patent.

The real kicker is right here:

> The digital rights management operating system
> also limits the functions the user can perform on the
> rights-managed data and the trusted application, and
> can provide a trusted clock used in place of the
> standard computer clock.

The ability to use information freely is now going to be
policed at the most intricate level, in the name of
exclusive rights and to the detriment of the most
fundamental Constitutional principles of our society.

Whereas the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution assures
that every American citizen has the full right to freedom of
speech, we see here the ultimate legislative and technical
trappings by which the public will be demarcated as mere
information consumers.

Facts and ideas are not contraband and may never be
copyrighted or otherwise constrained under the terms of
intellectual "property," whether they are bound up in an
expressive work or not; and the computer is a *logic* device
that now sits on nearly every citizen's desktop -- it is
*not* a consumer appliance.  From both the standpoints of
speech and thought, so-called digital "rights management" is
a utterly desolate *dead end.*

Whether we speak of the constituent pieces of expressive
works, or the nature of the computer itself, so-called
digital "rights management" marks the beginning of a grand
rollback of the means by which the promise of our
participation in and advancement of civil society have
lately been greatly augmented.

Rather than facing the simple, plain truth that the power
given in the U.S. Constitution for Congress to grant (or
deny) to authors and inventors "exclusive right" to their
works, was intended to cover products that do not
intrinsically bind up the very means of communication and of
our participation in civil society, we instead are
experiencing a social condition wherein monopoly interests
exploit the fluidity of logical products to evade the very
terms of antitrust law and to assure that the public's
ordinary rights do not gain purchase against their
interests.  Antitrust law is all about competition in a
particular product, but software is as amorphous in its
possibilities as our own vaunted power to think.  Thus
Microsoft easily maintains it is not in the browser market,
competing with Netscape; it is, rather, in the market for
"innovative operating systems."

We are now seeing just how "innovative" that operating
system can really be.

If we do not confront the ludicrousness of the idea of
holding a patent of this nature, and the outrageousness of
our courts' failure to confront the truth about what holding
market power in the field of informatin products really
means, we will soon be free to speak and think -- only so
long as we don't use our computers to do it.

Thus, in the name of exclusive rights, Microsoft is serving
old world publishing interests, acting by means of legal
fictions to assure that citizens who seek to further the
prospects of information technology, will be inexorably
locked into the role of information consumers, blocked from
exercising their own tools in full accordance with the
rights that our Constitution supposedly guards.

We are *all* information producers, whether we manifest this
as a routine, inalienable part of the ordinary rights we
exercise in our everyday lives, or whether we engage
ourselves in the present, increasingly desperate and furtive
struggle to guard commercial interests by restricting the
use of information delivered in digital form.

We have always been information producers, and we must not
accede to the interests of those who do not regard the
public at large as full and equal citizens, but rather as
mere consumers.


Seth Johnson
Committee for Independent Technology
December 14, 2001

Information Producers Initiative:
http://RealMeasures.dyndns.org/C-FIT

> -------- Original Message --------
> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:18:08 -0800
> From: John Young 
>
> Microsoft's patent for a Digital Rights Management
> Operating System was awarded yesterday:
>
>   http://cryptome.org/ms-drm-os.htm
>
> Abstract
>
> A digital rights management operating system protects
> rights-managed data, such as downloaded content, from
> access by untrusted programs while the data is loaded
> into memory or on a page file as a result of the
> execution of a trusted application that accesses the
> memory. To protect the rights-managed data resident in
> memory, the digital rights management operating system
> refuses to load an untrusted program into memory while
> the trusted application is executing or removes the
> data from memory before loading the untrusted program.
> If the untrusted program executes at the operating
> system level, such as a debugger, the digital rights
> management operating system renounces a trusted identity
> created for it by the computer processor when the
> computer was booted.  To protect the rights-managed data
> on the page file, the digital rights management
> operating system prohibits raw access to the page file,
> or erases the data from the page file before allowing
> such access.  Alternatively, the digital rights
> management operating system can encrypt the
> rights-managed data prior to writing it to the page
> file.  The digital rights management operating system
> also limits the functions the user can perform on the
> rights-managed data and the trusted application, and
> can provide a trusted clock used in place of the
> standard computer clock.
>
> **********************************************************************
> For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia
> Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot
> Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request at listserv.aol.com
> **********************************************************************



http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Dec 16 15:48:05 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:48:05 -0800
Subject: OBL's public key
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3C1CE3AC.4FD38FEB@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <3C1CC235.19114.358A5D2@localhost>


    --
> > If no one has already done this, the humor value in
> > publishing a public key under names like OBL would
> > certainly collect some interesting > messages.

On 16 Dec 2001, at 13:30, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> Certainly good for a few chuckles at first, but I wouldn't
> want to be around after they backtracked the originating IP
> ;-(

This assumes they  can backtrack the originating IP, and if
they could, many large companies have routers and firewalls
that assign IPs pretty much at random and keep no records --
since excessive record keeping has the problems we discussed
earlier in the kill-all-the-lawyers threads.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     fvB8KHk4u2pYX+wS7K6OpvoqYeHWwlqNdFM7Js/6
     4Nt5a/DLP2mXmM1YD6KHtoa1QbvQ8PHPIWs+oykdR




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 15 22:06:54 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:06:54 +1100
Subject: Terrifying GWB
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011216165534.00a60d00@pop.useoz.com>


The shrub-putin puppet show was saved by a rainstorm,my sources in chiapas 
tell me.The nuclear tipped scud on the burro drawn mobile launcher couldn't 
get a lock on target.Its a fairly high kiloton yield but theres only one 
bullet.So better luck next time campanero's.St Petersburg rang and plan 
some hannsen files and microsoft source code release's.Blows against the 
empire continue on another mindblowing front with a possible 'crack of the 
century' in the offing.We live in inneresting times.Stock up on fake ID's 
and uniforms.This could be the one.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 15 22:22:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:22:50 +1100
Subject: Poor little child pornographer 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011216171648.00a55dc0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>fellow officers protested and declared a work "slowdown." The union was 
all for it. Don't look for a fast response from 911 calls, I guess, if you 
live in certain Maryland suburbs of DC.

Guess they wont find chandra levy anytime soon.A cop in sydney the other 
day ,admitted to stealing large sums and dealing drugs quite routinely then 
blushed a little as he recounted how he'd sold his badge once to a drug dealer.
All vic drug squads have been told to resign and reapply.The union's 
considering their options.




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sun Dec 16 09:17:05 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:17:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


How much would be gained by using DC-Nets for inter-remailer communication?

Generally, DC-Nets increase the traffic by a factor equal to the number
of nodes in the net.  Suppose there were a core set of always-connected
remailers with about a dozen members, few enough to make a DC-Net
practical given current traffic loads.

Would this eliminate the benefits of remailer-to-remailer cover traffic?
Would it allow for shorter remailer chains while maintaining anonymity?

How much benefit do you get for the cost?




From j8012 at mailme.dk  Sun Dec 16 15:19:04 2001
From: j8012 at mailme.dk (j8012 at mailme.dk)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:19:04 -0500
Subject: Government Grants Information Package...........                         3878
Message-ID: <000016920356$0000776f$00000f26@mail.yahoo.co.jp>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
Size: 1609 bytes
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URL: 

From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sun Dec 16 18:51:00 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:51:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
In-Reply-To:  from "John
  Young" at Dec 16, 2001 08:20:17 PM
Message-ID: <200112170251.fBH2p0V14790@artifact.psychedelic.net>


John Young posts:

> Of particular concern was the content of Mr. Johnson's e-mails, 
> which contained derogatory comments about federal officials.

Of course, this is the way the US government loves to operate.  Convict
people on bullshit, get them "in the system," and then impose conditions
of probation which prohibit them from exposing what was done to them.

Both the Jim Bell and Carl Johnson trials were examples of this method in
action.

We'll see a lot more of such antics in the "terrorism" trials of the many
current detainees.  They will be convicted of bullshit, like transposing
two digits of their social security numbers, or failing to report they
were unemployed on a savings account application.  They won't be able to
defend themselves on terrorism charges, because they won't be on trial for
it.

Then, in the sentencing phase, the government will get to say anything it
likes about the person being a terrorist, with no opposing point of view
able to be presented, and the 30 year sentences will be rolled out.

It's the new AmeriKKKa, where everyone is guilty of something.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 00:32:30 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 19:32:30 +1100
Subject: Tailgunner jamesd 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011216190843.00a1d730@pop.useoz.com>


 >>> Fisk is one of those rare beasts,a truthful journalist.

 >>I was filled with rage when I read him piously declare that he 
understands why they're angry and doesn't hold it against them at all.

Doesn't seem to take much does it jimmy?,communal,libertarian socialists 
pick that up on subtle signals from you.{ I vigorously  declare that Im 
sorry the 4th plane didnt wipe out the W/house.or Congress/rest of 
pentagon.btw.}

 >> Such saintly piety reminds me of Heng Samrin. --digsig James A. Donald

Hengs famous for that , I guess.What a journo! Sure you dont mean Wilfred B?

All roads led into a morass,in my days.
Words gave us away to the executioner.
There was little I could do.yet our rulers
would have been happier without me,I hoped
Thus passed the time
allotted to me on this earth.

"For those born after us",by Bertolt Brecht.




From declan at well.com  Sun Dec 16 16:41:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 19:41:29 -0500
Subject: Terrifying PGP
In-Reply-To: ; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:16:53PM -0800
References: 
  
Message-ID: <20011216194129.A7578@cluebot.com>


Got a URL? didn't see anything here:
http://www.expresso.pt/pesquisa/default.asp

-Declan


On Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:16:53PM -0800, John Young wrote:
> The Portuguese newspaper Expresso, in reporting yesterday
> on various documents discovered in Kandahar (including a
> plan to Daisy Cutter London) says there was a manual for PGP. 
> 
> The paper commented that Congress had tried to ban PGP 
> because it might be used by terrorists.
> 
> Wonder if there are publics keys in the registries for AF?
> 
> Better, will Zimmermann at long last face a tribunal for
> perfidy?




From osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com  Sun Dec 16 20:09:43 2001
From: osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com (osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:09:43 -0800
Subject: Paper tigers
Message-ID: <200112170409.fBH49hL49538@mailserver2a.hushmail.com>


On Tue,  9 Oct 2001 05:30:09 +0000, osama_ben-laden at hushmail.com wrote:
>It will be revealed that he who used biologicals to attack the press was not acting in our name.  These will not be the pages upon which we will write death. We have other messengers and our tidings will soon be delivered.
>
>Grace and gratitude to God.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49502-2001Dec15.html


   Capitol Hill Anthrax Matches Army's Stocks
   5 Labs Can Trace Spores to Ft. Detrick
   
   By Rick Weiss and Susan Schmidt
   Washington Post Staff Writers
   Sunday, December 16, 2001; Page A01

...

   Genetic fingerprinting studies indicate that the anthrax spores mailed
   to Capitol Hill are identical to stocks of the deadly bacteria
   maintained by the U.S. Army since 1980, according to scientists
   familiar with the most recent tests.
   
   Although many laboratories possess the Ames strain of anthrax involved
   in this fall's bioterrorist attacks, only five laboratories so far
   have been found to have spores with perfect genetic matches to those
   in the Senate letters, the scientists said. And all those labs can
   trace back their samples to a single U.S. military source: the U.S.
   Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Disease (USAMRIID) at
   Fort Detrick, Md.
   
   "That means the original source [of the terrorist material] had to
   have been USAMRIID," said one of the scientists.




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Dec 16 20:20:17 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:20:17 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
Message-ID: 


NOV 02 2001

                 United States District Court
                           for the
                Western District of Washington

Report on Offender Under Supervision

Name of Offender: Carl Edward Johnson 
Case Number: CR98-05393

Name of Judicial Officer: The Honorable Robert J. Bryan

Date of Original Sentence: 06/11/99 

Date of Report: 10/29/01

Original Offense: Retaliation Against Judicial Officer; 
Obstruction Of Justice by Threat of Death Against Judicial 
Officer; Threatening Communication in Interstate of 
Foreign Commerce; Threatening Communications in Interstate
of Foreign Commerce.

Original Sentence: 37 months BOP; 3 years TSR

Type of Supervision: Supervised Release 

Date Supervision Commenced: 08/06/01

Special Conditions Imposed
[x] Substance Abuse [x] Financial Disclosure [ ] Restitution

[x] Mental Health   [ ] Fine           [ ] Community Service

[x] Other: No new credit; all employment shall be subject to 
approval by the Probation Officer; shall not use the Internet 
or a modem without the permission of his Probation Officer 
and shall provide his Probation Officer with the name and the 
Internet address of his Internet account use; shall not 
possess or use any computer encryption software or programs, 
retailers [sic], or anonymizers.

NONCOMPLIANCE SUMMARY

The probation officer believes that Carl Edward Johnson has 
violated conditions of supervision by:

Violation 
Number      Nature of Noncompliance

  1.        Failing to report the names and addresses of two 
            Internet service providers, in violation of a 
            special condition of supervision.

  2.        Using the Internet to access the "Cypherpunk" 
            website after being specifically instructed not 
            to use the Internet for this purpose, in violation 
            of standard condition number 3.

U.S. Probation Officer Action; 

On October 18, 2001, this officer received intelligence
information which indicated Mr. Johnson was accessing the 
Internet using two Internet accounts which had not been provided 
to this officer. Mr.Johnson was using these accounts to insert 
himself back into a "Cypherpunk" web site he had been accessing 
during the instant offense. During the probation intake with Mr. 
Johnson on August 20, 2001, he was instructed to use the Internet 
for the purpose of researching his medical condition and legal 
matters only, He was specifically instructed not to access
the Cypherpunk website.

Of particular concern was the content of Mr. Johnson's e-mails, 
which contained derogatory comments about federal officials. On 
October 22, 2001, this officer, along with the investigating 
agent in this matter, conducted an unannounced home visit at 
Mr. Johnson's residence. Mr. Johnson was asked if he had
provided this officer with all Internet accounts he was currently 
using, to which he stated he had two new accounts he forgot to 
report to this officer. He accurately provided the account 
addresses and stated he would not forget in the future. Mr. 
Johnson was questioned in regard to his recent postings to the 
Cypherpunk website after being instructed by this officer not to 

use the Internet for this purpose. Mr. Johnson became highly 
agitated at this point, yelling obscenities and banging his fists 
on the table. After he calmed down, however, Mr. Johnson stated 
he misunderstood and did not realize he was restricted from going 
into this site. He further explained that his messages, in regard 
to federal officials, were simply commentaries to other people's 
messages. Mr. Johnson was reprimanded for the inappropriate nature
of his e-mail messages and again specifically directed not to 
access the Cypherpunk website or make any postings to that site. 
It is noted that a thorough inspection of Mr. Johnson's residence 
was conducted during this home visit which did not yield anything 
unusual.

The Probation Office is giving Mr. Johnson the benefit of the doubt 
when he says he misunderstood this officer's instructions. We will 
continue to monitor him closely, and are recommending that no 
further action be taken at this time. Should Mr. Johnson's 
noncompliant behavior continue, the Court will be immediately 
notified and further sanctions will be requested.

                                     Respectfuly submitted,

                                     [signed]

                                     Lornie G. Vanous 
                                     Senior U.S. Probation Officer
APPROVED: 
William S. Corn 
Chief U. S. Probation Officer

BY: [signed]
Catherine E. Sandstrom 
Supervising U.S. Probation Officer

LGV/lv

10/31/01 
Attachment: Presentence, Report

__________________________________________________________________

THE COURT DIRECTS: 
[x] No Action Approved 
[ ] Submit a Request for Modifying the Condition or Term of 
    Supervision 
[ ] Submit a Request for Warrant or Summons 
[ ] Other


                              [signed Robert J. Bryan]

                           Signature of Judicial Officer

                                     2 NOV 01
                                       Date

------------------------------------------------------------------

                 United States District Court
                           for the
                Western District of Washington
                       November 2, 2001

MAILING CERTIFICATE OF CLERK

Re: 3:98-cr-05393

True and correct copies of the attached were mailed by the clerk 
to the following:

Robert Louis Jacob London, Esq. 
U S ATTORNEY'S OFFICE STE 5100 
601 UNION ST 
SEATTLE, WA 93101-3903 
FAX 553-0755

Floyd G Short, Esq. 
U S ATTORNEY'S OFFICE STE 5100 
601 UNION ST 
SEATTLE, WA 98101-3903 
FAX 553-2502

Todd Maybrown, Esq. 
ALLEN, HANSEN & MAYBROWN, P.S. 
STE 3020 
600 UNIVERSITY ST 
SEATTLE, WA 98101 
FAX 447-0839

USPO - Tacoma 
US PROBATION OFFICE 
ROOM 1310 
1717 PACIFIC AVE 
TACOMA, WA 98402-3231 
FAX 1-253-593-6378
Judge Bryan

------------------------------------------------------------------




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Dec 16 20:35:36 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:35:36 -0800
Subject: Terrifying PGP
In-Reply-To: <20011216194129.A7578@cluebot.com>
References: 
  
  
Message-ID: 


Sure, and the URLs still work. The first URL opens the story and 
the PGP doc is mentioned at the jump at the 2nd URL:

http://semanal.expresso.pt/primeira/artigos/interior.asp?edicao=1520&id_arti
go=ES45175 

http://semanal.expresso.pt/internacional/artigos/interior.asp?edicao=1520&id
_artigo=ES45132 

Here's Babelfish translation of the passage:

  To the side of some techniques of combat, apparently 
  rudimentary, were possible to find a manual on one of 
  the techniques of criptagem of more advanced electrsnicas 
  communications of the world, Pretty Good Privacy (PGP).  
  This method, practically considered inviolable, was forbidden 
  by the Congress them United States for distrust that could 
  be used to hide activities terrorist.




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sun Dec 16 20:36:54 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:36:54 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200112170436.fBH4asn51820@mailserver2a.hushmail.com>


At 06:51 PM 12/16/2001 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
>We'll see a lot more of such antics in the "terrorism" trials of the many
current detainees.  They will be convicted of bullshit, like transposing
two digits of their social security numbers, or failing to report they
were unemployed on a savings account application.  They won't be able to
defend themselves on terrorism charges, because they won't be on trial for
it.

>Then, in the sentencing phase, the government will get to say anything it
likes about the person being a terrorist, with no opposing point of view
able to be presented, and the 30 year sentences will be rolled out.

That's why a functional AP system and widespread publication of the personal information of justice and LE employees is essential.

For who may have transgressed and fear that late nite no-knock its essential to supply these unwanted visitors with a one way ticket to the happy hunting grounds.  Claymores and far IR trip sensors are soooo good.  If you're 'gona do time you might as well do THE crime!




From i6261 at chanteur.com  Sun Dec 16 17:40:37 2001
From: i6261 at chanteur.com (i6261 at chanteur.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:40:37 -0500
Subject: GETTING AN EDUCATION WITHOUT DEBT!!!!!                         810095
Message-ID: <00002fd13845$00001048$00007b6d@Kebi.com>

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From petro at bounty.org  Sun Dec 16 21:29:57 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:29:57 -0800
Subject: Customer Acts Odd? U.S. Wants to Know
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011210234332.039c68f0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <1B71E6CB-F2AF-11D5-B0AB-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Monday, December 10, 2001, at 11:57 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 09:54 AM 12/10/2001 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>> ...
>> 6A buyer has little or no understanding of the product he or she is
>> requesting or the commercial activity in which he or she is supposedly 
>> engaged.
> ...
>> 6A buyer has no interest in the customer service offered with a 
>> product or
>> rejects the manufacturer's offer to train employees in proper use of 
>> the product.
>
> Suspicious?  Those are simply *routine* in the telecom and computer 
> businesses :-)
> You'd think that they'd find it suspicious of customers *did* read all 
> the manuals,
> closely, in great detail.  It's less common now after the dot-com crash
> than during the heat of tulip-bulb mania, but if customers really 
> understood technology
> there'd be less need for data sales people to bring along systems 
> engineers
> to wave their hands and tell them what to think, or for companies to 
> hire
> lots of customer support people to explain how to reset the coffee-cup 
> holders on PCs,
> or for trade rags and internet sites to keep hyping new trends.

	Quite frankly if the products worked the way the manuals said, if 
the manuals were written by the engineers instead of marketing, and if 
vendors didn't routinely lie about their products, they wouldn't have to 
do all that either.

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From petro at bounty.org  Sun Dec 16 22:48:52 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:48:52 -0800
Subject: Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties
In-Reply-To: <3C186EC3.8343.26C21E@localhost>
Message-ID: <21E6D2E2-F2BA-11D5-B0AB-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 09:02 AM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>
> On 13 Dec 2001, at 7:04, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
>> Once again I am seeing eyewitness reports claiming more
>> U.S. Casualties.  Yet I don't see simular reports in the
>> U.S. Press confirming or denying these claims.
> The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.
> In the US, unlike most other countries, there is still
> sufficient freedom of speech that soldiers cannot go missing
> without it becoming widely known.  The US army does
> underreport wounded, and minimize the severity of wounds, but
> dead is dead.

	Of course, sometimes soldiers who die in a place they weren't 
supposed to be come up missing in "training accidents" somewhere else.

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From petro at bounty.org  Sun Dec 16 22:59:28 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:59:28 -0800
Subject: How do you sleep?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <9D2B468C-F2BB-11D5-B0AB-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 12:58 PM, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:
>> http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=104919&group=webcast
>> Damming exposure of Cato's MO. and the flacks and flunkys involved. 
>> G'way mate.
> That was a Fraser Institutute writer btw. But then an Aussie commie 
> might
> not make nice distinctions.
> The IMF/WTO should hold a get together in one of the US states with
> concealed carry laws and then we'd see how commie scum fare.

	They're too afraid of getting shot.


> If capitalists were really up to snuff, they'd organize a counter demo
> force armed with the most effective pre-firearms crowd control weapon --
> the quarterstaff.  Cut down on the old street demos.

	My first response to this was along the lines of "To organize an 
effective protest, they'd have to leave work, and a capitalist wouldn't 
do that".

	On second thought, they could just hire some people to do it.


--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From jya at pipeline.com  Sun Dec 16 23:53:24 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:53:24 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
In-Reply-To: <1a12b99962ce2247da8c84403f581fdb@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: 


I don't recall the rationale used by the USPO to forbid
CJ from posting to cypherpunks. Anybody know the
answer to that?

I can see the spite value, but what harm could possibly
come from posting to cypherpunks as distinguished from
another mail list? Or does the ban include posting to
any mail list.

I read the prohibition against using the Internet for any
purpose except research on medical and legal matters,
but nothing in the probation conditions about cyperpunks
itself.

Is that selective ban of cpunks a prelude to Tora Bora-ing
the whole shebang?

Just what is it about cypherpunks that drives federal officials
in the elf-buggering northwest to phantasms of Inquisition, 
Witch Burning, chasing home-brewed bin Ladens? Inshallah,
they act demon-possessed like christ-fetishist Robert Hanssen.

Speaking of stakeworthy witches, did you see that mad-terrorist
groupie Jessica Stern was featured by Time magazine as one 
of the Five Underappreciated Americans?




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Sun Dec 16 21:08:01 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:08:01 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
In-Reply-To: 
References: <1a12b99962ce2247da8c84403f581fdb@mix.winterorbit.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011217000801.A29084@ils.unc.edu>


On Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 11:53:24PM -0800, John Young wrote:
> ...
> Just what is it about cypherpunks that drives federal officials
> in the elf-buggering northwest to phantasms of Inquisition, 
> Witch Burning, chasing home-brewed bin Ladens? Inshallah,
> they act demon-possessed like christ-fetishist Robert Hanssen.

a. We understand the tech, they don't.  (Ok, some of us
understand some of the tech.)

b. Anonymity is available & used

c. I was just in Seattle.  I think it might be the
incessant rain that drives them bugfuck, combined
with the short winter days.  And all that caffein...

  -- Greg




From g12354 at forum.dk  Sun Dec 16 21:51:23 2001
From: g12354 at forum.dk (g12354 at forum.dk)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:51:23 -0500
Subject: DOCUMENT^IMAGING THE EFFICIENT WAY FILE.....                         913920
Message-ID: <000055795c61$00003708$00003b64@126.com>

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From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Sun Dec 16 16:50:58 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:50:58 +0100
Subject: OBL's public key
Message-ID: <13f88d26fd71d1cddcc669b3ee2e3a7f@mix.winterorbit.com>


Major Variola wrote:
> If no one has already done this, the humor value in publishing a public key
> under names like OBL would certainly collect some interesting messages.

There are at least four keys on the PGP public key servers for OBL:

Type Bits KeyID    Created    Expires    Algorithm       Use
pub  1024 7D6B7194 1999-05-01 ---------- DSS             Encrypt only   
sub  3072 A467CF86 1999-05-01 ---------- Diffie-Hellman                 
uid  Osama Ben Laden 

pub  1024 E26E586C 2001-05-01 ---------- DSS             Encrypt only   
sub  2048 6603204E 2001-05-01 ---------- Diffie-Hellman                 
uid  Osama Bin Laden

pub  1024 54A68C12 2001-10-13 ---------- DSS             Encrypt only   
sub  1536 CA5B39D2 2001-10-13 ---------- Diffie-Hellman                 
uid  osama bin laden 

pub  1024 7AD74ED0 2001-10-23 2002-10-23 DSS             Encrypt only   
sub  2048 8F6E73AA 2001-10-23 2002-10-23 Diffie-Hellman                 
uid  Osama Bin Laden 




From saeq at gmx.net  Mon Dec 17 02:15:32 2001
From: saeq at gmx.net (Luthor Blisset)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:15:32 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
In-Reply-To: <20011217082126.27927.qmail@nym.alias.net>
References: <1a12b99962ce2247da8c84403f581fdb@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011217021023.01cfbd48@pop.gmx.net>


At 08:21 AM 12/17/2001 +0000, some unnameable person wrote:

> > I'd like to see if pigs will dare fuck him for reading newspapers.
>
>Interesting.  Even more interesting would be to get cooperation of the
>paper's editor on the project: (1) avoid paying full price for the
>space, (2) gain a free-speech ally.
>
> > Any pointers to local papers appreciated.
>
>Here's a little list from google.
>
>Listed below are general newspapers in the Seattle area.
>
>[...]
>      8   Stranger, The (Seattle)
         If anybody would, these guys will. I wub em. They have very sane 
views on free speech issues, and they've written positive stuff about 
encryption before. I'm pretty sure I remember them recommending PGP.

-- Luthor //Remembering is copying and copying is THEFT




From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Sun Dec 16 18:33:02 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:33:02 +0100
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
Message-ID: <1a12b99962ce2247da8c84403f581fdb@mix.winterorbit.com>


I am seriously considering to fund printing of inet-one digest in local newspaper/rag that CJ can pick up. On a weekly basis.

I'd like to see if pigs will dare fuck him for reading newspapers.

Any pointers to local papers appreciated.




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Dec 17 01:33:41 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:33:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <200112170436.fBH4asn51820@mailserver2a.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: 



Mattd, there's no reason for you to anonymize, your style is already well
known.

On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 keyser-soze at hushmail.com wrote:

> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:36:54 -0800
> From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> 
> At 06:51 PM 12/16/2001 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
> >We'll see a lot more of such antics in the "terrorism" trials of the many
> current detainees.  They will be convicted of bullshit, like transposing
> two digits of their social security numbers, or failing to report they
> were unemployed on a savings account application.  They won't be able to
> defend themselves on terrorism charges, because they won't be on trial for
> it.
> 
> >Then, in the sentencing phase, the government will get to say anything it
> likes about the person being a terrorist, with no opposing point of view
> able to be presented, and the 30 year sentences will be rolled out.
> 
> That's why a functional AP system and widespread publication of the personal information of justice and LE employees is essential.
> 
> For who may have transgressed and fear that late nite no-knock its essential to supply these unwanted visitors with a one way ticket to the happy hunting grounds.  Claymores and far IR trip sensors are soooo good.  If you're 'gona do time you might as well do THE crime!
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Dec 17 06:58:55 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:58:55 -0700
Subject: MS DRM OS
Message-ID: <3C1E082F.F8D15DA6@lsil.com>


Could someone who knows more than I do explain to me why this MS "IP" is
anything other than making the owner of a PC unable to have root access
to their own hardware/OS? If so it seems to be an idea unworthy of
protection from lawyers and men with guns.

Mike




From popkin at nym.alias.net  Mon Dec 17 00:21:26 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 17 Dec 2001 08:21:26 -0000
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
References: <1a12b99962ce2247da8c84403f581fdb@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: <20011217082126.27927.qmail@nym.alias.net>

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From mch at againstwar.org  Mon Dec 17 08:30:12 2001
From: mch at againstwar.org (Mark Henderson)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:30:12 -0800
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. vetoes Mideast peace move - December 15, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3C1B7D01.28796.1C0C6E0@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:40:33PM -0800
References: ; <20011215124702.A8440@againstwar.org> <3C1B7D01.28796.1C0C6E0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011217083012.A17730@againstwar.org>


On Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:40:33PM -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> Someone who is too blind to recognize evil when it heaves a
> rock at his head needs some more rocks in the face to improve
> his vision.
> ...
> However a short while ago, the Taliban was slaughtering
> various minority groups, throwing their bodies into wells to
> poison the ground water, bulldozing their houses and
> irrigation ditches, cutting down their mulberry trees and
> bulldozing their vines.  Now they cannot do that any more.  I
> hope Fisk goes back there for some more beatings. 

How touchingly naive.

But, don't despair, now Afghanistan is ruled by a different set of 
thugs. They'll bulldoze different houses, and torture and kill 
different people. 




From mv at cdc.gov  Mon Dec 17 09:06:22 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:06:22 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
Message-ID: <3C1E260D.F992C5C5@cdc.gov>


At 08:20 PM 12/16/01 -0800, John Young wrote:
>
 Mr.Johnson was using these accounts to insert
>himself back into a "Cypherpunk" web site he had been accessing
>during the instant offense. During the probation intake with Mr.
>Johnson on August 20, 2001, he was instructed to use the Internet
>for the purpose of researching his medical condition and legal
>matters only, He was specifically instructed not to access
>the Cypherpunk website.

So how much fun would it be for lots of voices to start using sonofgomez
nyms?
Getting the rantflavor right would be difficult but through the miracle
of modern
zymurgy...




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Dec 17 09:17:46 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:17:46 -0800
Subject: Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties
In-Reply-To: <21E6D2E2-F2BA-11D5-B0AB-00306577F12E@bounty.org>
References: <3C186EC3.8343.26C21E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C1DB83A.15096.40B146@localhost>


    --
On 13 Dec 2001, at 7:04, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
> > > Once again I am seeing eyewitness reports claiming more 
> > > U.S. Casualties.  Yet I don't see simular reports in 
> > > the U.S. Press confirming or denying these claims.

James A. Donald:
> > The dogs bark but the caravan moves on. In the US, unlike 
> > most other countries, there is still sufficient freedom 
> > of speech that soldiers cannot go missing without it 
> > becoming widely known.  The US army does underreport 
> > wounded, and minimize the severity of wounds, but dead is 
> > dead.

On 16 Dec 2001, at 22:48, Petro wrote:
> Of course, sometimes soldiers who die in a place they 
> weren't supposed to be come up missing in "training 
> accidents" somewhere else.

The US, unlike the countries whose system so many prefer to 
impose on the US, has sufficient freedom of speech that that 
cannot happen without causing grave embarrassment.  Recollect 
that dying in battle gives very different honors, 
compensation etc.  If if the army falsified the circumstances 
of a soldier's death there would be mutiny in the ranks.

CIA deaths can go unreported, and probably usualy do.  Army 
deaths cannot, because of a system designed to encourage and 
recognize valor.

The low death rates in recent conflicts have made some people 
suspicious.  How can the US army get casualty ratio of 
something like ten thousand to one, when fighting against 
people with comparable weapons?  And if the US is made of 
supermen, why did it suffer heavy casualties in Vietnam and 
Korea?

In my judgment the big change is the change from a conscript 
army, a slave army, to a warrior army.  Firstly this makes 
the soldiers more valuable to the officers, since deaths cost 
the army big money.  Every casualty means that the pay and 
benefits have to be considerably higher.  In a free market, 
the burden of hazardous employment falls on the employer, so 
the employer has an incentive to provide safe employment. 
Secondly, the apparatus of coercion that attempts to force 
conscripts to fight against their will frequently forces them 
into danger that a competent warrior would never have gone 
into, or would promptly have left.

With warrior armies, the losing side typically suffers almost 
one hundred percent of the casualties.  These absurdly 
lopsided casualty rates have been normal throughout much of
the last few thousand years of history.  These recent figures
do not indicate the US army is composed of supermen, merely
that recent wars have been victorious, and that the US army
is now composed of warriors. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     YdA+jxja9u2mKh/t/7M4RTS4WDWB5rB/ToGn2IIw
     4IMbW6YIQXFRZY9lKCF8rMgIXbX/hM/6Gg0dg0Zjb




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Dec 17 09:19:41 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:19:41 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011217021023.01cfbd48@pop.gmx.net>
References: <20011217082126.27927.qmail@nym.alias.net>
  <1a12b99962ce2247da8c84403f581fdb@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: 


I've checked CJ's probation conditions and there's no mention
of cypherpunks, though POs can probably set any condition
they like. Or can they? The original conditions of release 
proposed by the PO included a ban on computer possession 
or use which was deleted by the judge. The judge also deleted
a ban on use or possession of a slew of computer peripherals
and programs.

The 7-page judgment and release conditions in multi-image
TIFF format:

  http://cryptome.org/cej-083.tif (202KB)

I seem to recall transcribing this doc months ago but
can't locate it.

The probation report posted here yesterday in its original
TIFF format:

  http://cryptome.org/cej-118.tif  (84KB)

And the case docket with links to the six records
available online (the two above and four others):

  http://cryptome.org/usa-v-cej-dkt.htm

A clap of the hands to Western Washington District for
putting case records online. Not many federal courts do
that. A few offer decisions but hardly any records are
available. Records in the terrorism trials in New York 
should be put online in the public interest.

We downloaded the 293 records in the Ahmed Ressam
terrorism case (initiated in Western Washingtion, tried 
in Los Angeles). The most recent records made public 
are those unsealed after action by the Seattle Times in
October. We've transcribed a few of them along with
the Times' impressive public interest argument for 
release (i.e., the public needs to know as much as
possible about terrorism to address self-protection):

  http://cryptome.org/ar/usa-v-ar-stu.htm




From mv at cdc.gov  Mon Dec 17 09:24:38 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:24:38 -0800
Subject: Army doubts genetic evidence; calls in OJ lawyers for
  assistance
Message-ID: <3C1E2A55.48668CA5@cdc.gov>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011217/ts/attacks_anthrax.html
Army Doubts Lab Is Anthrax Source

WASHINGTON (AP) - Army officials are
doubtful that potentially deadly anthrax in
letters mailed to Congress originated at a
military medical research center, even though
spores in both places were a genetic match.



Kato Kaelin was unavailable for comment.

-----
M. Atta -an army of one




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 14:32:18 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:32:18 +1100
Subject: Who's on first?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217091004.00a5d1b0@pop.useoz.com>


Your taxes at work dept; Massive increases in Humint and NSA,etc.2002 
(cryptome)

 >>the intelligence community has got to be better focused on strategic 
intelligence and better positioned to be able to get access to so-called 
plans and intentions, that is, what is going on in the minds of the 
evil-doers, the mischief makers, in order to prevent the crisis. We do not 
want to be just great at sweeping up after the tragedy; we want to stop the 
tragedy before it happens<<

Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad of Malaysia said that the United States 
has been learning from his country how to combat terrorism and that the 
West, which once accused him of trampling on human rights, now is following 
him.
"It's no good taking action after the crime," Mr. Mahathir said. "We have 
to act in anticipation, and not in the usual manner, because having to find 
proof of a crime which has not yet been committed is difficult." Timmy 
preserve us!

 >>Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through the
spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax system,
through even more direct applications of the right tools at the right times.
When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.<<

Or,when we get called evil-doers,mischief makers and/or pedophile 
pornographers? A Chinese guy just pulled 4 years for a post re.Tienamin 
square.As crypto winters getting nippy I suggest a pre-emptive strike.Soft 
drill fort detrick,anyone theres fair game.No jury would convict.




From vortex129 at excite.com  Mon Dec 17 09:33:15 2001
From: vortex129 at excite.com (vortex129 at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:33:15
Subject: laser cartridges
Message-ID: <486.79669.827178@unknown>





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From measl at mfn.org  Mon Dec 17 07:48:15 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:48:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, John Young wrote:

> I've checked CJ's probation conditions and there's no mention
> of cypherpunks, though POs can probably set any condition
> they like. Or can they? 

In NY, yes, and I have no reason to believe it would be any different
anywhere else.  For all intents and purposes, you are at the complete mercy
of your P.O..

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 15:31:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:31:11 +1100
Subject: Terrortorial:Mc Donalds bombed,Reactor hijacked,Intenational
  bikie terror alert.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217102230.00a633e0@pop.useoz.com>


The latest in a series of bombings in China has killed one person and 
injured 30.
The explosion ripped through a McDonald's outlet in the western city of 
Xi'an at the weekend. The blast, timed for the evening meal rush-hour at 
6.30pm, has been blamed on "international terrorism".

  The story of Mark and Jacqueline Hinchcliffe is so dark, so bleak, and at 
times so vile, as to be almost unimaginable. What's extraordinary is that 
we know it from their own mouths, because in the months leading up to the 
killing of Wright, Perth detectives were legally intercepting calls on Mark 
Hinchcliffe's mobile phone.

http://smh.com.au/news/0112/17/national/national2.html

International terrorists have just stormed a nuclear reactor in breaking 
news out of sydney au today.Full report on this and mass civil 
disobedience/sabotage in au to follow.Also a massive black economy is 
developing in OZ,similar to UK's.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Dec 17 07:57:37 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:57:37 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


If I were a remailer operator, I'm not sure I'd like this. Active
cooperation with another remaler operator means that if
he/she/it does something illegal, you could be dragged in
on 'conspiracy' charges, regardless whether you actually
had any knowledge of the the other operators nefarious
activities.

Peter Trei

> ----------
> From: 	An Metet[SMTP:anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org]
> Sent: 	Saturday, December 15, 2001 11:17 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: 	RE: CNN.com on Remailers
> 
> > Remailer operators should have permanent encrypted links to one another,
> > with constant (or at least message-uncorrelated) traffic volumes.
> > They can still use latency, message pools, and other features, of
> course.
> > But when it comes time to deliver messages to the next remailer in the
> > list, that should be done with a reliable and direct connection that
> > doesn't have to depend on the vagaries of sendmail, procmail, Microsoft
> > servers or the many other layers that get in the way.  This would both
> > increase the reliability of the remailer network and improve its
> security
> > by hiding inter-remailer traffic.
> 
> Great idea! Cypherpunks write code. Let us know when you have something we
> can look at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Dec 17 08:22:22 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:22:22 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


Modulo the recent discussion of how some remailers
treat traffic from other known remailers differently than
mail from unknown addresses, remailers don't need to
know about each other. 

If they don't know know about each other, and there is
nothing on the machines which suggest they no about
each other, it's difficult for a law abiding remailer operator
to become inadvertantly linked to a non-lawabiding one.

Of course, IANAL, so we're going to hear about 'happy fun
court' not being amused (sigh...)

Peter

> ----------
> From: 	Eugene Leitl[SMTP:Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de]
> Sent: 	Monday, December 17, 2001 11:17 AM
> To: 	Trei, Peter
> Cc: 	cypherpunks at lne.com; 'An Metet'
> Subject: 	RE: CNN.com on Remailers
> 
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > If I were a remailer operator, I'm not sure I'd like this. Active
> > cooperation with another remaler operator means that if
> > he/she/it does something illegal, you could be dragged in
> 
> How is this different from the current situation? Is usage of a specific
> mainstream protocol sufficient protection from conspiracy charges? Joe Bob
> Postfixuser is hardly a remailer operator.
> 
> > on 'conspiracy' charges, regardless whether you actually
> > had any knowledge of the the other operators nefarious
> > activities.
> 
> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Dec 17 11:50:29 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:50:29 -0800
Subject: FBI wants worm's keycapture data
Message-ID: <3C1E4C85.DF25B275@sarin.com>


http://www.dailyrotten.com/articles/archive/189387.html

 December 17, 2001
FBI wants access to worm's pilfered data

A ROTTEN.COM EXCLUSIVE

The FBI is asking for access to a massive database that contains
the private communications and passwords of the victims of the
Badtrans Internet worm. Badtrans spreads through security flaws
in Microsoft mail software and transmits everything the victim
types. Since November 24, Badtrans has violated the privacy of
millions of Internet users, and now the FBI wants to take part in
the spying.

                         Victims of Badtrans are infected when they
receive an email
                         containing the worm in an attachment and either
run the program
                         by clicking on it, or use an email reader like
Microsoft Outlook
                         which may automatically run it without user
intervention. Once
                         executed, the worm replicates by sending copies
of itself to all
                         other email addresses found on the host's
machine, and installs a
                         keystroke-logger capable of stealing passwords
including those
                         used for telnet, email, ftp, and the web. Also
captured is
                         anything else the user may be typing, including
personal
                         documents or private emails.

                         Coincidentally, just four days before the
breakout of Badtrans it
                         was revealed that the FBI was developing their
own
                         keystroke-logging virus, called Magic Lantern.
Made to
                         complement the Carnivore spy system, Magic
Lantern would
                         allow them to obtain target's passwords as they
type them. This
                         is a significant improvement over Carnivore,
which can only see
                         data after it has been transmitted over the
Internet, at which
                         point the passwords may have been encrypted.

                         After Badtrans pilfers keystrokes the data is
sent back to one of
                         twenty-two email addresses (this is according
to the FBI--
                         leading anti-virus vendors have only reported
seventeen email
                         addresses). Among these are free email
addresses at Excite,
                         Yahoo, and IJustGotFired.com. IJustGotFired is
a free service of
                         MonkeyBrains, a San Francisco based independent
Internet
                         Service Provider.

                         In particular, suck_my_prick at ijustgotfired.com
began receiving
                         emails at 3:23 PM on November 24. Triggering
software
                         automatically disabled the account after it
exceeded quotas, and
                         began saving messages as they arrived. The
following day,
                         MonkeyBrains' mail server was sluggish. Upon
examination of
                         the mail server's logs, it quickly became
apparent that 100 emails
                         per minute to the "suck_my_prick" alias were
the source of the
                         problem. The mails delivered the logged
keystrokes from over
                         100,000 compromised computers in the first day
alone.

                         Last week the FBI contacted the owner of
MonkeyBrains, Rudy
                         Rucker, Jr., and requested a cloned copy of the
password
                         database and keylogged data. The database
includes only
                         information stolen from the victims of the
virus, not information
                         about the perpetrator. The FBI wants
indiscriminant access to
                         the illegally extracted passwords and
keystrokes of over two
                         million people without so much as a warrant.
Even with a
                         warrant they would have to specify exactly what
information
                         they are after, on whom, and what they expect
to find. Instead,
                         they want it all and for no justifiable reason.

                         One of the most basic tenets of an
authoritarian state is one that
                         claims rights for itself that it denies its
citizens. Surveillance is
                         perhaps one of the most glaring examples of
this in our society.
                         Accordingly, rather than hand over the entire
database to the
                         FBI, MonkeyBrains has decided to open the
database to the
                         public. Now everyone (including the FBI) will
be able query
                         which accounts have been compromised and search
for their
                         hostnames. Password and keylogged data will not
be made
                         available, for obvious legal reasons.

                         The implications of complying with the FBI's
request, absent any
                         legal authority, are staggering. This is
information that no one,
                         not even the FBI, could legally gather
themselves. The fact that
                         they seek to take advantage of this worm and
benefit from its
                         illicit spoils, demonstrates the FBI's complete
and utter contempt
                         for constitutionally mandated due process and
protection from
                         unreasonable search and seizure. It defies
reason that the FBI
                         expects the American people to trust them to
only look at certain
                         permissible nuggets of data and ignore the rest
of what they
                         collect. One need only imagine what J. Edgar
Hoover would do
                         with today's expansive surveillance system,
coupled with the
                         new powers granted by the Patriot Act, to
appreciate the
                         Orwellian nightmare that the United States is
becoming. The last
                         thing the FBI should have is a spying Internet
worm, and it looks
                         like they've found one. Welcome to the Magic
Lantern.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Dec 17 11:59:41 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:59:41 -0800
Subject: worms getting smarter
Message-ID: <3C1E4EAD.EDC5DD79@sarin.com>


from
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20011213/tc/poetic_goker_disables_antivirus_protection_1.html


re Goker (w32.goker.a at mm)

How it works

Goker arrives as e-mail with one of the following subject
lines:

                                  If I were God and didn't belive in
myself would it be
                                  blasphemy
                                  The A-Team VS KnightRider...who would
win?
                                  Just one kiss, will make it better.
just one kiss, and we
                                  will be alright.
                                  I can't help this longing, comfort me.

                                  And I miss you most of all, my
darling...
                                  ...When autumn leaves start to fall
                                  It's dark in here, you can feel it all
around. The
                                  underground.
                                  I will always be with you sometimes
black sometimes
                                  white ...
                                  ...and there's no need to be scared,
you re always on
                                  my mind.
                                  You just take a giant step, one step
higher.
                                  The air will hold you if you try,
trust my wings of
                                  desire. Glory, Glorified...

The body of the e-mail contains one or more of the following:

             Happy Birthday
             Yeah ok, so it's not yours it's mine :)
             The horizons lean forward, offering us space to place new
steps of change.
             I like this calm, moments before the storm
             Darling, when did you fall...when was it over?
             Will you meet me...and we'll fly away?!
             You should like this, it could have been made for you
             speak to you later
             They say love is blind...well, the attachment probably
proves it.
             Pretty good either way though, isn't it?
             still cause for a celebration though, check out the details
I attached
             This made me laugh
             Got some more stuff to tell you later but I can't stop
right now
             so I'll email you later or give you a ring if thats ok?!
             Speak to you later




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 17:01:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:01:24 +1100
Subject: Tailgunner jamesd and the year of the rat.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217115439.00a623b0@pop.useoz.com>


1976 -- Jamesd, a goose that lived to 49 years
8 months, dies returning from the evening meal.
His last mortal
words: "I'm stuffed."
1983 -- Columnist Lars-Erik Nelson after checking the
citations on all 434 Congressional Medal of
Honor awarded during World War II, reveals that not one
of them matches the story acting
President Reagan told the other day. "It's not true,"
writes Nelson.
Responds Reagan's man, Larry Speakes,
"If you tell the same story five times, it's true."
1998 -- Author William Gaddis dies.
The day on which a libidinal American President,
counting the hours before his impeachment, launched
yet another series of bomb attacks on an Iraqi population
already unconscionably squeezed & starved, America's
most proficient satirist died....
http://www.themodernword.com/scriptorium/gaddis.html
http://home.pacbell.net/freeron/gaddis/
2000 -- US: The president of the Florida Holocaust
Museum recently noted that George W. Bush's
grandfather derived a portion of his personal fortune
through his affiliation with a Nazi-controlled bank.
John Loftus, a former prosecutor in the Justice
Department's Nazi War Crimes Unit, said
his research found that Bush's grandfather
was a principal in the Union Banking Corp.
in the late 1930s & the 1940s.
That money flows into American politics today,
he said, from "a series of multinational corporations
behaving like pirates. They don't care about ideology;
they care about money."
"That's where the Bush family fortune came from:
It came from the Third Reich," Loftus said.
http://www.newscoast.com/headlinesstory2.cfm?ID=35115
http://www.geocities.com/dudar2000/Bcc.htm
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/ratline.html
________________
"The streets are safe in Philadelphia,
it's only the people who make them
unsafe."
 Frank Rizzo, Philadelphia
Police Chief, Resident Philosopher
http://users.lanminds.com/zapoid/p-dem-env-061899-432-jkap.jpg

URLS on breaking au news...above's from
http://www.eskimo.com/~recall/bleed/calmast.htm

http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20530&group=webcast
Biker's blues

http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=9337&group=webcast
Reactor rats.




From testers at programmer.net  Mon Dec 17 09:30:55 2001
From: testers at programmer.net (testers at programmer.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:30:55 -0500
Subject: "SOFTWARE TESTERS & DEVELOPERS CONTRACT TO HIRE"
Message-ID: <71pq6nnkpj6x2o2.ex3q6j55cj4e4o6r6@it-hourlyrates.com>


From:-
Gani Pola 												SP*
PCI Data Consulting      
Marketing Division
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Tel: 1-888-248-3443 OR 1-888-713-7201 
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mailto:testers at programmer.net

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From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Mon Dec 17 13:07:58 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:07:58 -0800
Subject: Remailers knowing about other remailers
Message-ID: <59019c4f92003c87fcafa0d946dd67e0@melontraffickers.com>


On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Modulo the recent discussion of how some remailers
> treat traffic from other known remailers differently than
> mail from unknown addresses, remailers don't need to
> know about each other.

What about remixing? There are other reasons for remailers to know about 
each other.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 18:13:15 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:13:15 +1100
Subject: ATTN.JYA.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217125752.00a21e70@pop.useoz.com>


Operation Soft Drill.Website.
A website is under development and construction in the wildnets.Expressions 
of interest invited from www.cryptome.org  addicts.
Site shall have the names of prominent criminals such as Somoza,Shah 
P,Marcos, W.Colby,Mountbattan and so on,all crossed out.
  Visitors to the site may vote as to who's next.The name with the most 
votes going to the top of the list.Site will list Quad anon surfing and 
sending advice and crypto download sites as well as links to various 
quality anarchist pages.

"Whoever places their hand on me to govern me is a usurper and tyrant.I 
declare them my enemy." PJ Proudon.




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 17 03:14:53 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:14:53 +0200
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
References: <200112142100.QAA03361@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <009e01c186ec$0d874fe0$5600a8c0@mark>


From: "Faustine" 

> My point was that without constitutional protection, it would be
infinitely
> easier for innocent people and arbitrarily-determined thought-crimanal
"enemies
> of the state" to be shot right along with the real criminals. In America
as it
> exists today, the Constitution is the only thing that stands in the way of
> full-scale repression in the name of "security". Be careful what you wish
for,
> that's all.

I bet FBI agents have nightmares. At least those involved in the Waco and
Ruby Ridge cases. I think they were unable to sleep at night, dreaming of a
piece of paper jumping between them and their victims and threatening to...
whatever.

Has anyone EVER saw the Constitution stand in any place, let alone "in the
way of full-scale represion"? People with guns do that, not paper. Why do I
have to repeat something this obvious?

(No, "it was a metaphor" doesn't cut it. It was a dumb metaphor. Next time
you're arguing something, get rid of metaphors. As an exercise, try
rephrasing what you said above without using any. Forget about
"constitutional protection" or "Constitution standing in the way". Try to
make sense.)

Mark




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Dec 17 10:23:43 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:23:43 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


> ----------
> From: 	Nomen Nescio[SMTP:nobody at dizum.com]
> Sent: 	Monday, December 17, 2001 1:10 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: 	RE: CNN.com on Remailers
> 
> Peter Trei writes:
> > Modulo the recent discussion of how some remailers
> > treat traffic from other known remailers differently than
> > mail from unknown addresses, remailers don't need to
> > know about each other. 
> >
> > If they don't know know about each other, and there is
> > nothing on the machines which suggest they no about
> > each other, it's difficult for a law abiding remailer operator
> > to become inadvertantly linked to a non-lawabiding one.
> 
> Did you even read the message which explained WHY remailers need to
> know about each other, and why they need to treat traffic from remailers
> different from that from unknown addresses?  Your message shows no sign
> of it.
> 
> Rather than issuing your blanket statement that remailers don't need to
> know about each other, you need to explain how to deal with the issues
> which presently require the contrary.
> 
Yes, I have read the letter - they need to treat input from known remailers
differently due to worries over spam and flooding attacks, so they treat 
other known remailers as priviliged sources of high volume traffic.

This does not invalidate my point - that such special treatment could lead
a remop into legal problems. We have two different problems, with mutually
undesirable solutions.

Peter Trei




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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 18:45:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:45:52 +1100
Subject: Anarchy in the UK.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217134157.00a5f6b0@pop.useoz.com>


Police chief volunteers for the soft drill.

Subject: patriot games
Police chief hits back over Omagh. 
http://www.observer.co.uk/nireland/story/0,11008,619650,00.html
Henry McDonald, Ireland editor
Sunday December 16, 2001
The Observer
The police chief at the centre of the row over the Omagh bombing last night 
launched a savage attack on 'highly unreliable' informants who claimed the 
RUC had ignored advance warnings of an attack.
In his first newspaper interview since the controversy began, Sir Ronnie 
Flanagan - who had said publicly he would 'commit suicide' if allegations 
of incompetence were proved.
ALSO
The coming crypto-pedo crackdown.
Subject: The Pedo-crackdown
Police want new powers to lock up paedophiles.
Martin Bright, home affairs editor
Sunday December 16, 2001
The Observer
Senior police officers last night called for powers to lock up dangerous 
paedophiles without charge to avoid a repeat of the Sarah Payne murder case.
Sir John Stevens, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, believes 
that the authorities should have the power to 'section' high-risk 
paedophiles in the same way as schizophrenics can be removed from the 
community for treatment if they are judged a serious risk to themselves or 
others.
More on... http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,619619,00.html

The dickheads are getting desperate as JOG might say.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 19:00:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:00:52 +1100
Subject: Sebald-Shor synchronicities
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217135420.00a60420@pop.useoz.com>


 >>It's rare to read a book that isn't comparable to any others that I've 
read. Sebald covers every topic imaginable as we walk with him through 
Suffolk -- from Darwinism, to Borges, to Leopold's Congo, to herring 
fishing. This all occurs from taking small steps through Sufflok, and by 
noticing the details of everything that surrounds him, and by showing how 
everything is connected. I really think that Sebald has created a new kind 
of philosophy with this book; it's part existentialism, part metaphysical, 
and totally unique. Rings of Saturn review at Amazon.

 >>In her book "Reading in Detail: Aesthetics and the Feminine" (Methuen, 
1987), she argued that men, in taking the universal view, have historically 
tended to de-emphasize the importance of details. She suggested that 
details were considered ornamental or mundane, and as such, were deemed 
women's stuff.
But at the same time, theorists like Jacques Derrida, the French 
philosopher whom Dr. Schor knew and interpreted in her writings, were 
coming to consider traditional visions of universal truth irrelevant. To 
them, the truth was in the meaning of details.
"Does the triumph of detail signify a triumph of the feminine with which it 
has long been linked?" she asked. "Or has the detail achieved new prestige 
by being taken over by the masculine, triumphing at the very moment when it 
ceases to be associated with the feminine?"
She relentlessly challenged conventional understanding in her teaching and 
writing as well as in a feminist journal she helped found in 1989 at the 
Pembroke Center for Teaching and Research on Women at Brown University. 
Even the name of the journal  "differences: A Journal of Feminist Cultural 
Studies"  reflects her idiosyncratic outlook. She suggested putting the 
"s" in italics to make people think. (The lowercase "d" was chosen by 
graphic designers.)
"She had this amazing way of making the familiar look unfamiliar," said 
Elizabeth Weed, the other founding editor.
Dr. Schor was born on Oct. 10, 1943, in Manhattan. Her father, Ilya, was a 
painter, goldsmith and artist of Judaica. Her mother, Resia, was also an 
artist. They had fled from Poland to Paris to escape the Nazis, eventually 
reaching New York, by way of Lisbon, on Dec. 3, 1941. From nyt piece on the 
passing of naomi shor.Devils in the detail.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 17 11:33:27 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:33:27 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <200112171933.OAA01512@mail.lokmail.net>

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From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Mon Dec 17 14:46:14 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:46:14 -0800
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
Message-ID: 


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49141,00.html

Incredible.  Abso-fucking-lutely incredible.  After telling us all about
the poor little child pornographer, Larry Benedict, and how the mean
old police are out to get him, Declan finally lets the other shoe drop
in part 5 of this 5-part series.

Benedict pled guilty.

He pled guilty, agreeing to a plea bargain calling for 37 months in
prison.

This "innocent" man agreed to spend 3 years in prison for something he
didn't do.  He agreed to brand himself for life as a child pornographer,
setting himself up for 3 years of hell in prison where child pornographers
are the lowest of the low.  All this when supposedly all he really did was
trade some computer games.

One commentator points out the obvious absurdity of this claim:

   "I think most people, if they were trading computer games and then
   arrested and charged with very serious felonies involving child
   pornography -- I don't think most people would wait several years
   and plead guilty (if) in fact they had done nothing wrong."

Wouldn't it have been relevant to let us know this essential fact about
the case back when the series began?  Wouldn't it have colored our
understanding and perception of Benedict's claims, given us perspective
to judge the truth of what he is saying?  Or is this Declan trying to
copy radio's Paul Harvey: "And now you know... the rest of the story!"

Surprise endings have no place in serious reporting.  Saving the punchline
for the end is only appropriate for a joke.  Sadly, there's no better
word to describe this pitiful attempt at journalism.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 17 11:51:07 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:51:07 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers 
Message-ID: <200112171951.OAA07792@mail.lokmail.net>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 20:11:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:11:42 +1100
Subject: Intro to Cypherpunks 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217150152.00a61eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Dear visitor,may I offer my intro without risk of intruding? I fear you may 
not be able to
make yourself understood by the worthy ape who presides over this 
website.In fact he speaks
nothing so much as double dutch,so unless you authorize me to intercede for 
you he wont guess
what you want to talk about.
There,I dare hope he understood me,that nod must mean he yields to my 
arguments.He is making
haste with prudent deliberation.You are lucky he didn't grunt.When he 
refuses to someone,he
merely grunts.No one insists.Being master of ones moods is the privilege of 
the larger animals.
Now I shall withdraw,fellow surfer,happy to have been of any help.Ill stay 
a while with you if
you like,we're all the same here.Yes? Well then lets share a cleansing ale 
together,Salud!
What's that? His silence is deafening,you say,your absolutely right,its 
deafening like a primeval
forest,heavy with threats.His business, such as it is,is entertaining 
surfers of all nations
who come here,who knows why.With such duties you'd think there might be 
some fear that his
ignorance could be awkward.Like a cro-magnon man top the tower of babel he 
should be out of his
element.Yet this one's unconscious of all that.He goes his own sweet way 
and nothing touches him.
One of the rare sentences I've heard from his mouth proclaimed that you 
could take it or leave it.
Take or leave what? No doubt our friend.
I am drawn to such creatures that are all of one piece.Everyone I know 
that's studied humanity is irresistibly led to nostalgia for the 
primates,at least they have no ulterior motives.Our  host does have some 
though they
are well hidden.As a result of not understanding what's said in his 
presence,he's adopted that
distrustful disposition.See that look of touchy dignity as if he at least 
suspected that all
is not perfect among us.That disposition makes it difficult to discuss much 
with him that doesn't
affect capitalism.I also blame society as you can see from perusing the 
archives a little.
Societies police spoilt the simple frankness of his nature.Mind you I'm not 
judging him,I consider
his mistrust perfectly justified and would share it wholeheartedly if I 
were not talkative by
nature,In fact I should end this conversation now before we talk all 
night.See you soon?
OK. Later.




From testers at programmer.net  Mon Dec 17 12:15:19 2001
From: testers at programmer.net (testers at programmer.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:15:19 -0500
Subject: "SOFTWARE TESTERS & DEVELOPERS CONTRACT TO HIRE"
Message-ID: 


From:-
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Tel: 1-888-248-3443 OR 1-888-713-7201 
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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 20:26:58 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:26:58 +1100
Subject: I want robb London DEAD! I want his family DEAD!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217151817.00a61c30@pop.useoz.com>


The above subject line is a crudely inserted attempt to entrap famous aussi 
cypher-terrorist,suspected pedophile,shoplifter,piethrower and 
international arms trafficker,
proffr1.
This was done by the victorian police who lied to gain entry to taylors 
home,stole his dell cs latitude and threatened
to charge him with threatening the chief commissioner,attending 
demonstrations and being an anarchist.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 16 20:42:31 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:42:31 +1100
Subject: Listen up you federal piles of FUCKING DOG SHIT!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217153640.00a60990@pop.useoz.com>


All low federal,state or fucking martians surving this site are given fair 
warning.
If from this day forth you continue to spy on this site with malicious 
intent then it will come out and I may not be able to save you.Your 
freezedried motherfuckers,LAY the FUCK OFF!




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 17 12:42:39 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:42:39 -0500
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban 
Message-ID: <200112172042.PAA28654@mail.lokmail.net>

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From ian at jimjon.net  Mon Dec 17 07:24:25 2001
From: ian at jimjon.net (napalos)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:24:25 +0100
Subject: Puto culo maol oliente...putoculo@putoculo.com
Message-ID: <200112171603.KAA04565@einstein.ssz.com>



tal vez te interese esta direccion
http://www.putoculo.com/sexo.htm


pruebame..............................




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 17 13:30:55 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:30:55 -0500
Subject: CIA poised for unprecedented involvement in domestic
  investigations 
Message-ID: <200112172130.QAA19922@mail.lokmail.net>

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From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Dec 17 08:17:23 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:17:23 +0100 (MET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> If I were a remailer operator, I'm not sure I'd like this. Active
> cooperation with another remaler operator means that if
> he/she/it does something illegal, you could be dragged in

How is this different from the current situation? Is usage of a specific
mainstream protocol sufficient protection from conspiracy charges? Joe Bob
Postfixuser is hardly a remailer operator.

> on 'conspiracy' charges, regardless whether you actually
> had any knowledge of the the other operators nefarious
> activities.

-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Dec 17 16:56:24 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:56:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Yes, I have read the letter - they need to treat input from known remailers
> differently due to worries over spam and flooding attacks, so they treat 
> other known remailers as priviliged sources of high volume traffic.
> 
> This does not invalidate my point - that such special treatment could lead
> a remop into legal problems. We have two different problems, with mutually
> undesirable solutions.

If the sending node doesn't know about the destination node, how does it
konw where to send the traffic (even if the sender provides the address)?
The reality is that the remailers must 'know' of each other one way or
another. Simply being part of a 'remailer network' (anonymous or not)
tends to already put one in a 'conspiratorial' situation.

Truly robust remailers MUST be located in domains that protect speech and
association with something similar to 'innocent until proven innocent'.
That's the only defence against 'conspiracy'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Dec 17 10:10:11 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:10:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <928aa0eebb19e4f76fc8d9ba736c5297@dizum.com>


Peter Trei writes:
> Modulo the recent discussion of how some remailers
> treat traffic from other known remailers differently than
> mail from unknown addresses, remailers don't need to
> know about each other. 
>
> If they don't know know about each other, and there is
> nothing on the machines which suggest they no about
> each other, it's difficult for a law abiding remailer operator
> to become inadvertantly linked to a non-lawabiding one.

Did you even read the message which explained WHY remailers need to
know about each other, and why they need to treat traffic from remailers
different from that from unknown addresses?  Your message shows no sign
of it.

Rather than issuing your blanket statement that remailers don't need to
know about each other, you need to explain how to deal with the issues
which presently require the contrary.




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Dec 17 10:30:14 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:30:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
Message-ID: <8b47e45936444f997abd34ab80dc9311@dizum.com>


jya>>I don't recall the rationale used by the USPO to forbid CJ from 
posting to cypherpunks. Anybody know the answer to that?

Since when is it unusual to forbid parolees from associating with
unsavory and immoral characters?




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec 17 19:35:57 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:35:57 -0800
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011217191306.030d9040@idiom.com>


"ATM" is "Adobe Type Manager".  Linotype is a big font house.
Intellectual Property laws for fonts are normally even stranger than for 
regular material,
but if any of these are in Postscript, they're also programs,
so there may be DMCA issues, and there's obviously some contractual
relationship with Adobe that lets them copyright implementations.
(I have *no* idea if there's Dmitri Sklyarov-related material here,
as in "Did Adobe do Something Bad, or was Someone Else careless",
but it's entertaining speculation, at least in the absence of actual 
knowledge.)

Does anybody know ATM implementation details?
Adobe's web page describes ATM Light as a
	"Free font utility for viewing and printing PostScript fonts
	Adobe. Type Manager. (ATM.) Light is a system software component
	that automatically generates high-quality screen font bitmaps
	from the PostScript. outlines in Type 1 or OpenType. format."
which implies that at least some ATM fonts are real Postscript.



Fairly usable Fair Use reformatted excerpt from The Register's article follows.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23427.html

Linotype gets heavy over free ATM font downloads
By John Lettice  - john.lettice at theregister.co.uk
Posted: 17/12/2001 at 12:15 GMT

German company Linotype Library GmbH is flexing its ATM font copyright 
muscles via 'cease and desist' letters with potential $30,000 legal tabs 
attached. The fonts in question do seem to be owned by Linotype (or to be 
strictly accurate, its parent company Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG), but 
are probably part of a batch that accidentally wandered into the shareware 
sector in the early 90s.

The fonts are frequently found for download on OS/2 sites, and have tended 
to propagate via mirrors, with the assumption that they're shareware 
propagating along with them. This was the case for Ian Manners, who runs 
www.os2site.com, and who contacted The Register after receiving his letter 
from Linotype.
....
What does seem clear is that Linotype is making heavy legal noises in order 
to clear the fonts off download sites. And strangely enough, the fonts 
themselves (Cascade, Flora, Frutiger, Helvetica, Isadora, Linotext, 
Linoscript, Optima, Palatino, Peignot, Present, Shelley and Univers), are 
currently on sale at Linotype Library's site.

The fonts Ian was hosting complicate matters further, in that internally 
they have an Adobe copyright stamp in them. Adobe itself sells the fonts in 
question, and labels them as Linotype's trademark on its site. It seems 
fairly clear that the fonts are Linotype's property, and that even people 
offering cloned versions under the same names are going to be vulnerable to 
legal threats. From the Linotype letter, however, it doesn't seem to be the 
case that they're universally trademarked throughout the world, which could 
make actual legal action complicated.




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Dec 17 18:11:16 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:11:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban 
In-Reply-To: <200112172042.PAA28654@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> >Since when is it unusual to forbid parolees from associating with
> >unsavory and immoral characters?
> 
> Tarring everyone here with such a broad brush hardly seems appropriate.
> Just a quick reminder: you're as much "here" as anyone else is, even if you
> have fooled yourself into feeling a false sense of distance behind that
> remailer of yours. So unless you see yourself as "unsavory and immoral",
> you might understand how some people here could be interested in an apology. 
> Or at the very least an explicit clarification.

The explanation is easy: you missed the implicit  

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Dec 17 17:13:04 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:13:04 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


> Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com]
> 
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I have read the letter - they need to treat input from known
> remailers
> > differently due to worries over spam and flooding attacks, so they treat
> 
> > other known remailers as priviliged sources of high volume traffic.
> 
> If the sending node doesn't know about the destination node, how does it
> konw where to send the traffic (even if the sender provides the address)?
> The reality is that the remailers must 'know' of each other one way or
> another. Simply being part of a 'remailer network' (anonymous or not)
> tends to already put one in a 'conspiratorial' situation.
> 
> Truly robust remailers MUST be located in domains that protect speech and
> association with something similar to 'innocent until proven innocent'.
> That's the only defence against 'conspiracy'.
> 
Typical Choate, missing the point. A remailer simply gets sent a message,
applies it's decryption key, and sends the contents on to the next address
(yes, this type of remailer does not include nice features such as cover
traffic).

It has no idea if the address it received the message from is a remailer.
It has no idea if the address it forwarded the message to   is a remailer.
It doesn't need to.
Chaining is the sender's problem.
The point here is that the remailer treats other remailers exactly as it
treats source and destination nodes. There is no file on the remailer which
says "I'll treat hosts from this list specially".

This prevents the remop from having to worry about being sucked into a
conspiracy charge for a crime commited by a different remop. He doesn't
know, need to know, or want to know what other sites are remailers. He 
doesn't need to know the other remops, or communicate with them, 
except to inform the world (not just remops) that 'there is a remailer
here."

Peter Trei

 





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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec 17 20:36:23 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:36:23 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
In-Reply-To: <20011217000801.A29084@ils.unc.edu>
References: 
  <1a12b99962ce2247da8c84403f581fdb@mix.winterorbit.com>
  
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011217193831.030e2160@idiom.com>


At 11:53 PM 12/16/2001 -0800, John Young wrote:
 > I don't recall the rationale used by the USPO to forbid
 > CJ from posting to cypherpunks.  Anybody know the answer to that?

For CJ to be on Cpunks is Hangin' out with his old Bad Company from the 'hood,
like that Jim Bell dude and the other guys on the Group W bench,
talking about criiiime and father-rapin' and poetic-terrorizin' and 
creatin' a disturbance.

The fact that they can't tell a web site from a mailing list
when they're writing orders forbidding him to do it
suggests it's not a deeply-thought-out policy here.

At 12:08 AM 12/17/2001 -0500, Greg Newby wrote:
>On Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 11:53:24PM -0800, John Young wrote:
> > ...
> > Just what is it about cypherpunks that drives federal officials
> > in the elf-buggering northwest to phantasms of Inquisition,
> > Witch Burning, chasing home-brewed bin Ladens? Inshallah,
> > they act demon-possessed like christ-fetishist Robert Hanssen.
>
>a. We understand the tech, they don't.
>(Ok, some of us understand some of the tech.)
>b. Anonymity is available & used

But that was just the point, in the Jim Bell case -
the Fedz came in with their 24 8x10 color glossies with circles and arrows 
on the back,
but unfortunately the judge and jury didn't have seeing-eye dogs,
so they actually looked at the things and listened to the Fedz,
and they *didn't* understand the technology enough to know that
Assassination-Politics-Quality Anonymity *isn't* available or usable,
and in particular, AP-Quality payer-and-payee-anonymous digital cash isn't 
available,
and that if those fundamental building blocks aren't there,
then any discussion of "how could it be used?" or "like, that'd be cool, 
huh huh!",
at least by people who *do* understand the technology and state of its 
deployment,
is strictly speculative philosophical bullshitting, not active conspiracy.

Now, it's possible that the Fedz in question really understood this at the 
time,
but Jim Bell's such a mainstream sympathy-inspiring figure,
especially with his alleged history of stink-bombing IRS offices and
his alleged paperwork-based harassment of bureaucrats and politicians allegedly
with the so-called "common-law court" folks, some of whom allegedly *are* 
dangerous loons,
that in the absence of extemely competent counsel, skilled at
not only explaining really obscure technical material to hostile non-techies
but also at dealing with seriously uncooperative clients,
a conviction was a slam-dunk, so not only does it give them
Federal Brownie Points for busting a "dangerous terrorist assassin"
and preventing him from doing anything else real,
but it serves as a deterrent for future JimBell-Wanabees who *don't*
understand that the technology isn't there, and besides, he was in their face,
and kept getting in their face after they'd successfully framed him.

Is it likely that Jeff Gordon understood what was real about the tech
and was doing this out of pure malice, as opposed to not understanding it
and actually believing that Bell was a real threat?  I doubt he cared enough
about justice that, if he did come to understand that AP wasn't real,
that he'd either apologize for his mistake or let it get in the way of an 
easy win.

And CJ just kept jumping in the way yelling "Nyahh Nyahh" and looking wacko,
and even back before 9/11, furriners didn't have civil rights,
and he didn't get the "Oh, he's just Canadian" exception to that,
because he was scaring the Canadians too.


>c. I was just in Seattle.  I think it might be the
>incessant rain that drives them bugfuck, combined
>with the short winter days.  And all that caffein...

I've almost always found the weather in Seattle to be gorgeous,
except one or two times that it was also pouring rain here in San Narcisco;
maybe I'm just lucky.  And Seattlers *smoke* a lot also,
and it's always that nasty tobacco stuff, unlike down here :-)

But the bigger problems are that they're Fedz,
and that they fundamentally don't have much useful work to do,
and that there's real hostility to them up there which they respond to
in macho-tribal fashion, and face it, if you've got a choice of
keeping your job by doing a big dangerous-terrorist bust,
would *you* rather go after the real Aryan Nations types,
or would you rather go after a Jim Bell or CJ which gets you
almost as many Brownie Points without actually being
dangerous or requiring serious police work?

Sure, your coworkers might know it's a sucker play, but it looks
almost as good on the paperwork that goes to Washington,
which is good for the budget and your department's reputation,
and in return they'll be happy you got this annoyance out of their face,
and it's not like they're getting much non-cynical self-respect
out of what they're usually doing.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 01:45:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:45:59 +1100
Subject: Paranoia runs deepThe CATO McCullogh letters.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217203130.00a62e70@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25692

 >>Extract...during a CATO-sponsored forum on Iraq Wednesday.
The forum's other expert, former CIA Director James Woolsey, favored action 
against Iraq, but only if the United States accomplished certain objectives 
first.
Woolsey said the United States would first have to destroy Iraq's somewhat 
extensive air defenses, so American and coalition aircraft would have 
control of the skies. "If we did that successfully, the Republican Guard or 
any other Iraqi divisions, the loyalty of which in the latter case is 
extremely doubtful as far as Saddam is concerned, but even the Republican 
Guard, about half-strength of what it was in 1991, has no place to hide," 
he said.
The former CIA director said the United States would need essentially only 
one ally  Turkey  for use of its airbases in >>attacks against Iraq.<


Keyser Sose>>
 >>That's why a functional AP system and widespread publication of the 
personal information of justice and LE employees is essential.

For who may have transgressed and fear that late nite no-knock its 
essential to supply these unwanted visitors with a one way ticket to the 
happy hunting grounds.  Claymores and far IR trip sensors are soooo 
good.  If you're 'gona do time you >>might as well do THE crime!

Hear Hear! Where is our PROMIS ? Our nuremburg websites? Operation soft 
drill appeals to massive civil disobedience?

Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number -
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Dec 17 19:01:44 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:01:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Typical Choate, missing the point.

Merry Christmas to you too.

> A remailer simply gets sent a message,
> applies it's decryption key,

The same key it shares with everyone else (all users to anon_1 use the
same key - bad!!! idea). Allows you to build up a big library of
plain-cypher pairs, and if you send it to yourself you can attack their
private key as well.

> and sends the contents on to the next address (yes, this type of remailer 
> does not include nice features such as cover traffic).

And it can't encrypt that outgoing traffic since it doesn't have the key
to the destination (I assume the user must nest these themselves). This
represents a lot of work for the initiator of a email, especially if
they're in a 'sensitive' situation. Too big a 'signature' (the traffic
analysis kind).
 
> It has no idea if the address it received the message from is a remailer.
> It has no idea if the address it forwarded the message to   is a remailer.
> It doesn't need to.
> Chaining is the sender's problem.

The sender having to know all the steps is a major threat to the standard
remailer model. In fact it's one of the major shorcomings with the current
approaches. The sender should at most be able to set the number of
remailers, not which ones. That way there's on evidence sitting around on
their machines (and you can posit throwing the keys away each time - but
then you have to go out and get them again...and around and around we go).

One of the primary points of any remailer technology should be to minimize
the threat to the user. This model doesn't.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 02:09:32 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:09:32 +1100
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban.This is not a job.Its an adventure!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217210632.00a64060@pop.useoz.com>


 > I am seriously considering to fund printing of inet-one digest in
 > local newspaper/rag that CJ can pick up. On a weekly basis.

Extract>> I'd like to see if pigs will dare fuck him for reading newspapers.

Interesting.  Even more interesting would be to get cooperation of the
paper's editor on the project: (1) avoid paying full price for the
space, (2) gain a free-speech ally.

 > Any pointers to local papers appreciated.

Here's a little list from google.

Listed below are general newspapers in the Seattle area.

      1   King County Journal (multiple locations)
      2   Puget Sound Business Journal (Seattle / Eastside)
      3   Seattle Daily Journal of Commerce (Seattle)
      4   Seattle Post-Intelligencer (Seattle - Combines ads with the 
Seattle Times)
      5   Seattle Press, The (Seattle)
      6   Seattle Times - (Seattle - Combines ads with the Seattle 
Post-Intelligencer)
      7   Seattle Weekly, The (Seattle)
      8   Stranger, The (Seattle)
      9   Today's Careers (Pacific Northwest)

Some corresponding URLs

      1   http://www.kingcountyjournal.com
      2   http://seattle.bcentral.com/seattle/
      3   http://www.djc.com/classified/
      8   http://cgi.thestranger.com/classifieds/index.cgi
  >>    9   http://www.todays-careers.com/
End ex.
Another workaround would be to CC CJ and 'channel' any 'imaginings' of his 
here like 'the front'
Ill send him this now at... sonofgomez709 at nospam.yahoo.com




From syhua3000 at 9dns.net  Mon Dec 17 19:18:08 2001
From: syhua3000 at 9dns.net (ľ)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:18:08 -0600
Subject: 200M+1150Ԫ
Message-ID: <200112180318.fBI3I74O021593@ak47.algebra.com>



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From syhua3000 at 9dns.net  Mon Dec 17 19:22:57 2001
From: syhua3000 at 9dns.net (ľ)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:22:57 -0600
Subject: 200M+1150Ԫ
Message-ID: <200112180322.VAA10246@einstein.ssz.com>



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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 02:42:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:42:27 +1100
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban.This is not a job.Its an adventure!, jya.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011217211032.009f6330@pop.useoz.com>


jya>>I don't recall the rationale used by the USPO to forbid CJ from 
posting to cypherpunks. Anybody know the answer to that?

Faustine? Nomen?

 >>I can see the spite value, but what harm could possibly come from 
posting to cypherpunks as distinguished from another mail list? Or does the 
ban include posting to any mail list.

Like indymedia adelaide or norway IMCs ? The harm could come from AP 
reaching critical mass.We may be close.It could be DY-NA-MITE!

 >>I read the prohibition against using the Internet for any purpose except 
research on medical and legal matters, but nothing in the probation 
conditions about cyperpunks itself. Is that selective ban of cpunks a 
prelude to Tora Bora-ing the whole shebang?

The best will easily get away,I see a crypto- al qaeda or crypto-pedophile 
or crypto-laundering feint coming.It should harden our defenses 
further,expose more of their agents and methods and publicize the gapeing 
holes in their infrastructure,also terrific for entertainment web journo 
hacks such as mysELF.

 >>Just what is it about cypherpunks that drives federal officials in the 
elf-buggering northwest to phantasms of Inquisition, Witch Burning, chasing 
home-brewed bin Ladens?

They havent been the same since mt st helens.Their best and deepest thinker 
was a survivalist living nearby in 1980.
Grunge and 1999 spooked the shit out of all the dumb dumbs.Plus the rain 
and the beast of redmond.(my o.o2c)

 >>Inshallah, they act demon-possessed like christ-fetishist Robert Hanssen

Speaking of that freak,your cryptome link on hims buggered,Ill try opera in 
a minnie.A lot came out in the WTC trials to help OBL plan doomsday so Ive 
great expectations for the hanssen trial.The fbi needs exterminating.(hi 
bobby M)

 >>Speaking of stakeworthy witches, did you see that mad-terrorist
groupie Jessica Stern was featured by Time magazine as one
of the Five Underappreciated Americans?<<

She's welcome downunder anytime,I give good head and I hear she loves 6 
thick inches
in the rear.(one point safe)Who was the other one after huei,dewey and loie?

[Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold ]




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Dec 17 19:47:47 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:47:47 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | WEP Gets A Bit Stronger through RSA
Message-ID: <3C1EBC63.AE285063@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/17/1853206.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Dec 17 19:50:36 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:50:36 -0600
Subject: smh.com.au, Breaking News - UN Proposal - Register every human in the world
Message-ID: <3C1EBD0C.5B4ADA4E@ssz.com>


http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2001/12/14/FFX058CU6VC.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Dec 17 21:52:31 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:52:31 -0800
Subject: CNN.com - U.S. vetoes Mideast peace move - December 15, 2001
In-Reply-To: <20011217083012.A17730@againstwar.org>
References: <3C1B7D01.28796.1C0C6E0@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:40:33PM -0800
Message-ID: <3C1E691F.16393.1DD8E6C@localhost>


     --
James A. Donald:
> > Someone who is too blind to recognize evil when it heaves
> > a rock at his head needs some more rocks in the face to
> > improve his vision. [...] a short while ago, the
> > Taliban was slaughtering various minority groups,
> > throwing their bodies into wells to poison the ground
> > water, bulldozing their houses and irrigation ditches,
> > cutting down their mulberry trees and bulldozing their
> > vines.  Now they cannot do that any more.  I hope Fisk
> > goes back there for some more beatings.

On 17 Dec 2001, at 8:30, Mark Henderson wrote:
> How touchingly naive.
>
> But, don't despair, now Afghanistan is ruled by a different
> set of thugs. They'll bulldoze different houses, and
> torture and kill different people.

Perhaps, but they did not slaughter minority groups before,
and they are not doing it right now.  More importantly, they
did not slaughter several thousand westerners before, and
they are not killing random western journalists right now.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     YB3S+eH0vvZ6wzEgSsqLYrnLiqeRGaQSl8sYmVIf
     4M39oEKzqjnvvqBLAoHclxU0SZh4WlrS3VTtHY2G3




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Dec 17 22:10:36 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:10:36 -0800
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3C1E6D5C.15745.1EE1B38@localhost>


    --
On 17 Dec 2001, at 14:46, A. Melon wrote:
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49141,00.html
>
> Incredible.  Abso-fucking-lutely incredible.  After telling
> us all about the poor little child pornographer, Larry
> Benedict, and how the mean old police are out to get him,
> Declan finally lets the other shoe drop in part 5 of this
> 5-part series.
>
> Benedict pled guilty.
>
> He pled guilty, agreeing to a plea bargain calling for 37
> months in prison.
>
> This "innocent" man agreed to spend 3 years in prison for
> something he didn't do.

The alternative being a likelyhood of spending twenty years
in prison for something he did not do.  The fact that he
could plea bargain it down to three years is pretty good
evidence that the prosecution had no real case.

> He agreed to brand himself for life as a child
> pornographer, setting himself up for 3 years of hell in
> prison where child pornographers are the lowest of the low.

During the recovered memory hysteria, lots of clearly
innocent people confessed to raping their children.  The
prosecution in those cases was prepared to agree to almost
anything that involved a confession, rather than actually go
to court, and use any measures, including horrific criminal
threats against people's children, to force a confession.
Once a few cases actually did go to court, the scam was
exposed, and suddenly people stopped recovering memories.  As
the prosecutor's fear of trials became more and more obvious,
the plea bargains became more and more absurd.  Typically
someone would admit to extraordinary and hideous crimes
against their own children, retain custody, and have to pay a
large sum to the "therapists" who had obtained the evidence. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Nnl4bHhk68kyJ8MRgkd6XhgfwHK9RX9+GNHkGXA7
     4K6yCjdTmj6MMMd1SW0BmniXLS1SrtLVkrdf5hJt/




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Dec 17 22:10:36 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:10:36 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3C1E6D5C.13045.1EE1B2E@localhost>


    --
On 17 Dec 2001, at 21:01, Jim Choate wrote:

>
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
> > Typical Choate, missing the point.
>
> Merry Christmas to you too.
>
> > A remailer simply gets sent a message,
> > applies it's decryption key,
>
> The same key it shares with everyone else (all users to anon_1 use the
> same key - bad!!! idea).

You know nothing about encryption.



> Allows you to build up a big library of
> plain-cypher pairs, and if you send it to yourself you can attack their
> private key as well.

No you cannot.
>
> The sender having to know all the steps is a major threat to the standard
> remailer model.

You know nothing about remailers.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     8RSVVHohMThQae7dkZnrZsELFbCgTRs3+Y/6UCT+
     4dY/aAa7Ke/htbQbZmQO+evUz7HxXS5CCHghCZhXn




From jday442 at excite.com  Mon Dec 17 21:13:36 2001
From: jday442 at excite.com (jday442 at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:13:36 -0700
Subject: PHASE 1
Message-ID: <200112180519.XAA11421@einstein.ssz.com>

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From 1814328travelincentives1 at aol.com  Mon Dec 17 22:18:14 2001
From: 1814328travelincentives1 at aol.com (1814328travelincentives1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:18:14
Subject: 2624           If you don't have idea about Christmas gift, we give you best choose.                  1432818
Message-ID: 


Merry Christmas!

If you don't have idea about Christmas gift, we give you best choose.

The synthetic crystal art glass, the interior is made to look like an image, In 3D!!! Made with New, Amazing, and Exciting. Junoesque. Elegance. Auspicious sign. Cheap. It is really best gift.

Click here:
http://gift.81832.com

Thanks.




From 1815687travelincentives1 at aol.com  Mon Dec 17 22:18:15 2001
From: 1815687travelincentives1 at aol.com (1815687travelincentives1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:18:15
Subject: 5496           If you don't have idea about Christmas gift, we give you best choose.                  1568718
Message-ID: <200112171453.WAA07070@unihr.net>


Merry Christmas!

If you don't have idea about Christmas gift, we give you best choose.

The synthetic crystal art glass, the interior is made to look like an image, In 3D!!! Made with New, Amazing, and Exciting. Junoesque. Elegance. Auspicious sign. Cheap. It is really best gift.

Click here:
http://gift.81832.com

Thanks.




From 1816578travelincentives1 at aol.com  Mon Dec 17 22:18:16 2001
From: 1816578travelincentives1 at aol.com (1816578travelincentives1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:18:16
Subject: 4624           If you don't have idea about Christmas gift, we give you best choose.                  1657818
Message-ID: <200112171446.fBHEkus7010446@ak47.algebra.com>


Merry Christmas!

If you don't have idea about Christmas gift, we give you best choose.

The synthetic crystal art glass, the interior is made to look like an image, In 3D!!! Made with New, Amazing, and Exciting. Junoesque. Elegance. Auspicious sign. Cheap. It is really best gift.

Click here:
http://gift.81832.com

Thanks.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec 17 23:17:10 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:17:10 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218174922.009f7eb0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011217231359.03594ae0@idiom.com>


At 06:49 PM 12/18/2001 +1100, mattd wrote:
> >>any discussion of "how could it be used?" or "like, that'd be cool, huh 
> huh!", at least by people who *do* understand the technology and state of 
> its deployment, is strictly speculative philosophical bullshitting, not 
> active conspiracy.
>
>Thanks,Ill be sure to call you as an expert witness.You might consider a 
>career as a journalist or priest as added insurance.Just to be on the 
>*safe*side.

Hey, Protestantism gave us the "priesthood of all believers",
and if that's too much work, the ULC will ordain you for $20.
The Internet lets everybody be a journalist, or at least a political 
commentator.
Won't be a problem getting either of those jobs :-)
(However, as many people have discovered with acting or Internet startup,
getting a job in the field is easy, but getting a *paying* job is tougher...)




From l14579 at waumail.com  Mon Dec 17 20:53:16 2001
From: l14579 at waumail.com (l14579 at waumail.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:53:16 -0500
Subject: Take the kids                         23823
Message-ID: <00007335067a$00003f1f$00005d0f@mail.www.yu>

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From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Mon Dec 17 16:23:22 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 00:23:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
Message-ID: 


>Of course, this is the way the US government loves to operate.  Convict
>people on bullshit, get them "in the system," and then impose conditions
>of probation which prohibit them from exposing what was done to them.

The prime goal of any legal system is to maximize number of criminals.

I'm sure that search of JYA's premises would yield enough stuff for a
100-year sentence, excluding any controlled substances.

Each copy of a software program that cannot be substantiated with purchase
receipt: 5 years.

That incorrect 1998 IRS return where he forgot to include $100 that Gordon paid
for cryptome CD: 10 years.




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Dec 18 01:17:01 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:17:01 -0800
Subject: Uzbekistan Eyewitnesses See Dozens of US Casualties
In-Reply-To: <3C1DB83A.15096.40B146@localhost>
Message-ID: 


On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 09:17 AM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
James A. Donald:
>>> The dogs bark but the caravan moves on. In the US, unlike
>>> most other countries, there is still sufficient freedom
>>> of speech that soldiers cannot go missing without it
>>> becoming widely known.  The US army does underreport
>>> wounded, and minimize the severity of wounds, but dead is
>>> dead.
> On 16 Dec 2001, at 22:48, Petro wrote:
>> Of course, sometimes soldiers who die in a place they
>> weren't supposed to be come up missing in "training
>> accidents" somewhere else.
>
> The US, unlike the countries whose system so many prefer to
> impose on the US, has sufficient freedom of speech that that
> cannot happen without causing grave embarrassment.  Recollect
> that dying in battle gives very different honors,
> compensation etc.  If if the army falsified the circumstances
> of a soldier's death there would be mutiny in the ranks.

	Depends on the soldier and the "war" they are fighting.

	Not all soldiers fight for honors, and some units 
understand/believe that certain fights in certain places are worth not 
getting all that much attention. I'm not saying that in *this* war that 
would happen, there is no need. The American public knows we are in this 
war, and they understand that there will be some casualties.
>
> The low death rates in recent conflicts have made some people
> suspicious.  How can the US army get casualty ratio of
> something like ten thousand to one, when fighting against
> people with comparable weapons?  And if the US is made of
> supermen, why did it suffer heavy casualties in Vietnam and
> Korea?

	Because in Korea and Vietnam we were fighting the enemies fight 
with largely the the same level of technology (yes, we had better 
technology, but not *that* much better).

	We are also fighting smarter these days.

> In my judgment the big change is the change from a conscript
> army, a slave army, to a warrior army.  Firstly this makes
> the soldiers more valuable to the officers, since deaths cost
> the army big money.  Every casualty means that the pay and
> benefits have to be considerably higher.  In a free market,
> the burden of hazardous employment falls on the employer, so
> the employer has an incentive to provide safe employment.
> Secondly, the apparatus of coercion that attempts to force
> conscripts to fight against their will frequently forces them
> into danger that a competent warrior would never have gone
> into, or would promptly have left.

	Not that I disagree much with this, but there is also the issue 
that the American public is much more sensitive to losses than in Korea 
or Vietnam. "We" are not  as naive as we used to be, and we don't trust 
Uncle nearly as much.

	This makes those at the top more careful about objectives and methods.


--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Dec 18 01:19:00 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:19:00 -0800
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
In-Reply-To: <8b47e45936444f997abd34ab80dc9311@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <458AA7BC-F398-11D5-A2B6-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 10:30 AM, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> jya>>I don't recall the rationale used by the USPO to forbid CJ from
> posting to cypherpunks. Anybody know the answer to that?
> Since when is it unusual to forbid parolees from associating with
> unsavory and immoral characters?

	Given the neighborhoods most parolees live in, forbidding them 
contact with "unsavory and immoral characters" is often impossible.
--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From scribe at exmosis.net  Mon Dec 17 17:20:13 2001
From: scribe at exmosis.net (Graham Lally)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:20:13 +0000
Subject: FBI wants worm's keycapture data
References: <3C1E4C85.DF25B275@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <3C1E99CD.8000208@exmosis.net>


Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

> http://www.dailyrotten.com/articles/archive/189387.html
> 
>  December 17, 2001
> FBI wants access to worm's pilfered data


Have to reply to this - the outcome of this is great...

> Last week the FBI contacted the owner of MonkeyBrains, Rudy
> Rucker, Jr.,


[I *assume* son of, uh, Rudy Rucker, mathemtician and author. I 
thoroughly recommend "White Light".]


> Accordingly, rather than hand over the entire database to the
> FBI, MonkeyBrains has decided to open the database to the
> public. Now everyone (including the FBI) will be able query
> which accounts have been compromised and search for their
> hostnames. Password and keylogged data will not be made
> available, for obvious legal reasons. 

[commentary snipped]

Flantastic! What possible reason could the FBI have come up with (and I 
would love to see a copy of the request for MonkeyBrain's database) for 
obtaining such confidential data, even if/especially when illegally 
obtained in the first place... The only disheartening side of this is 
that 99% of the people who *should* be querying that list won't ever 
hear of it... Ah yes, the media loves to report the gory stuff, yet 
seems all too ready to ignore the /useful/ bits...

Of course, if report mails form the virus were sent to another 
dozen-and-a-half addresses too, what's the FBI doing about *those* 
accounts? Did Yahoo et al. just hand over the data as requested? I find 
it hard to believe that the FBI chased up just one avenue...

Furthermore, under the second phase of the UK Data Protection Act 
[http://www.dataprotection.gov.uk/], if the forthcoming Hague Convention 
on Jurisdiction and Foreign Judgments in Civil and Commercial Matters
[http://www.hcch.net/e/workprog/jdgm.html] were to come into force, 
would I be allowed to ask the Feds for my account details if I lost them?...

.g




From d20524 at osite.com.br  Tue Dec 18 01:58:48 2001
From: d20524 at osite.com.br (d20524 at osite.com.br)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 04:58:48 -0500
Subject: Can't Sleep In Because of Harassing Phone Calls?                         18141
Message-ID: <000070123f49$000057d4$000046dd@esperanto.nu>

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From measl at mfn.org  Tue Dec 18 04:29:02 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:29:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011217231359.03594ae0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Hey, Protestantism gave us the "priesthood of all believers",
> and if that's too much work, the ULC will ordain you for $20.

Actually, the ULC will make you for free - the $20.00 "love offering" is just
if you want the cool plastic ID card and the Doctor of Divinity title that
accompanies it ;-)

Oh that the Catholic Church would be so up front about their real intentions!

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 18 05:08:22 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:08:22 -0600
Subject: Using Multiple Mini-Sensors In Surveillance System
Message-ID: <3C1F3FC6.482CD09A@ssz.com>


http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1218011.htm
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From anonymous at remailer.havenco.com  Mon Dec 17 23:17:22 2001
From: anonymous at remailer.havenco.com (Anonymous User)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:17:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Nah? You don't think? (Was: FBI: Yet Another Uncorroborated threat)
Message-ID: <3a7ee37c63fd06d1d4831f0525112a32@remailer.havenco.com>


> Heads up folks!
> 
> http://www.dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/ap/stories/AP_STATE_0069.html
> 



	FBI: Uncorroborated threat received against Texas schools 
	12/12/2001 
	By CONNIE MABIN / The Associated Press 
	
	AUSTIN - FBI agents have alerted schools throughout Texas 
	that a vague threat has been received suggesting two people 
	may retaliate against unknown Texas schools for the U.S. 
	bombing in Afghanistan.
	"Basically, as vague as I gave it, is as vague as we have 
	it," Houston FBI Special Agent Bob Doguim said Wednesday. 
	"This is coming to us from a foreign government. We are 
	working with them to try and determine the reliability of 
	it."



Yeah, but those foreign government agents will believe anything
they read on the internet...

I guess poor Katie will be the youngest person ever to have her 
school club declared a proscribed terrorist-supporting NGO.





From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Dec 18 07:38:16 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:38:16 -0800
Subject: Saudi Violence in the US
Message-ID: <3C1F62E7.F8D336C5@sarin.com>


Saudi Princess Charged With Beating

ORLANDO, Fla.  A Saudi princess has been charged with beating her
servant and pushing her down a flight of stairs.

Princess Buniah al-Saud, the niece of King Fahd of Saudi Arabia, was
held without bond at the Orange County Jail for allegedly beating Memet
Ismiyati, her Indonesian maid.

Al-Saud, 41, could get 15 years in prison if convicted of felony
aggravated battery.

Neighbors called 911 Friday after Ismiyati, 36, ran crying from the
apartment she shared with the princess. She told deputies al-Saud beat
her, hit her head against a wall and pushed her down a flight of stairs,
leaving her unable to walk.

"When we talked to her (Ismiyati) through an Indonesian interpreter and
saw the extent of her injuries, we upgraded the charges to a felony,"
said Orange County Undersheriff Malone Stewart.

Ismiyati was treated at a hospital and released.

When deputies went to the princess' apartment Friday, she denied
striking or pushing the maid, the Orlando Sentinel reported in Tuesday's
editions.

The Saudi Embassy in Washington, D.C., said the princess had diplomatic
immunity. But the Immigration and Naturalization Service said al-Saud
failed to follow proper procedures by not notifying them of her
itinerary in America, thereby leaving her without diplomatic immunity.

The princess has been living in Orlando while studying English at the
University of Central Florida.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58468-2001Dec18.html




From hakkin at sarin.com  Tue Dec 18 07:42:49 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:42:49 -0800
Subject: Happy Eid al-Fitr, NYC
Message-ID: <3C1F63F9.4CEC8A9C@sarin.com>


Fire Breaks Out at St. John the Divine, Largest Church in United States
               By Alan ClendenningAssociated Press Writer
                         Published: Dec 18, 2001
NEW YORK (AP) - Fire broke out Tuesday morning at the historic Cathedral
of St. John the Divine, with flames shooting from the Episcopal church
that has been under construction for more than a century.

Part of the roof of an adjoining three-story gift shop caved in but no
injuries were reported.

The Christmastime fire, which was brought under control within 2 1/2
hours, was largely contained in the main cathedral area, according to
fire officials, who said they expected widespread smoke and water
damage. The cause of the blaze was under investigation.

Up to 200 firefighters were called to the scene at about 7 a.m., an hour
before the first Mass of the day at the world's largest gothic
cathedral. Smoke poured from the gift shop, and scores of onlookers
stood by.

"There were clouds of black smoke 40 feet high. The winds were blowing
it all over the place," said Juan Cruz, a mechanic who saw the fire on
his way to work at nearby Columbia University.

----
Just a coincidence, I'm sure.




From ericm at lne.com  Tue Dec 18 07:53:37 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:53:37 -0800
Subject: MY APPOLOGIES TO ALL CYPHERPUNKS - WAS Re: Returned mail:
In-Reply-To: ; from baptista@pccf.net on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 09:04:46AM
  -0500
References: <200112181341.IAA32527@vanilla.corp.faxcash.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011218075337.A31476@slack.lne.com>


On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 09:04:46AM -0500, baptista at pccf.net wrote:
> All nite long i've been spammed by the account asoiau1632 at yahoo.com.  I'm
> sure we've all seen the numerous messages on here.
> 
> Anyway - my autoresponder has been responding to these messages and as a
> result a number of bounced email ended up redirected to the
> cypherpunks lists.
 
Actually, I only got the originals.  It looks like the mail kept going
through the CDR nodes because one of them was re-sending it.
Its hard to tell from the headers, but I think it's minder.net.

If your autobounce was just feeding back the message that you receive
with no changes (error headers, etc) to minder then you might have been
the cause.  Otherwise, there's some other problem.
(if you didn't see it because you're subscribed to a filtering CDR
that filtered them, it was about 400 copies of spam).

Either way, you shouldnt set up an autobounce that can reply to a list.
Please fix it so it won't do that.

Eric


> I have recently /dev/null all email from asoiau1632 at yahoo.com - so the
> bounces should stop soon.
> 
> regards
> joe
> 
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote:
> 
> > The original message was received at Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:41:04 -0500
> > from locust.minder.net [216.254.113.229]
> > 
> >    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> > "|exec /usr/bin/procmail"
> >     (expanded from: )
> > 
> >    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> > 554 Too many hops 26 (25 max): from  via locust.minder.net, to 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
> 
> http://www.dot-god.com/




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 12:57:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:57:10 +1100
Subject: Fort Detrius,Agnewville
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218074824.00a62140@pop.useoz.com>


Operation soft drill seeks pledges to be pooled and paid for the closest 
prediction of the permanent retirement of anyone
associated with or having dealings with fort detrick maryland.(my 0.02c)

On this day...1936 -- USSR: In Moscow, Pravda announces that in
Catalonia (Spain), the "cleaning" out of Trotskyites &
the anarcho-syndicalists has already started. Stalin's agents
will carry out these purges:
"As for Catalonia, the purging of Trotskyist &
anarcho-syndicalist elements has begun; this
work will be carried out with the same energy
with which it was done in the USSR."

I find that if I go off my meds and remove tinfoil turban Im able to get a 
good fix on pugsley...

Subject: !!! HotMail Lifts CypherPunk Ban !!! [ WAS!WAS: Prologue to 
Chronicles of Arnold 0000 0000 0010 ]
[EditWhore's Write Note: As per usual, the 'Subject:' header has little or
nothing
to do with the actual contents of this missive, but it should be noted that
a HotMail
Baron 2B Flamed Later is unimpressed by efforts of the Fe(de)ral GooberMint
to slam an ElectroMagnetic Curtain down around the Author, and continues to
supply HimOrHerOrIt with CopiousQuantities of Terroroist {<--A Clue, !A
Typo)
Literature advising HimOrHerOrIt how to Disguise HimOrHerOrItSelf through
the use of a Myriad of Breast&OR&Penis EnlargeMent&OR&EnGorgeMent
Techniques...]
[t. Author's Left gNut: It appears that my 'Probation' is subject to the
same
conditions as my NonExistent AllegedInary Trial--namely, that I be the last
person to know in regard to any developments therein. I appreciate John
Young and Declan McCullagh making an effort to distribute copies of what
is apparently a Probation Report on me to a great enough extent that even
TheLastPersonInTheWorldOnTheDistrubutionChain (Me, eh?) has an
opportunity to peruse it.]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Declan McCullagh" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 7:58 PM
Subject: Cypherpunk visited for making "derogatory" remarks about Feds
 > ----- Forwarded message from John Young  -----
 > From: John Young 
 > Subject: Cypherpunk Ban
 > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:20:17 -0800
 > NOV 02 2001
 > United States District Court
 > for the
 > Western District of Washington
 > Report on Offender Under Supervision
 > Name of Offender: Carl Edward Johnson
 > Case Number: CR98-05393
"I don't care what they charge me with, as wrong as they squeal my
gnome write."
~ ? the Platypus
 > Special Conditions Imposed
 > [x] Other: No new credit; all employment shall be subject to
 > approval by the Probation Officer; shall not use the Internet
 > or a modem without the permission of his Probation Officer
 > and shall provide his Probation Officer with the name and the
 > Internet address of his Internet account use; shall not
 > possess or use any computer encryption software or programs,
 > retailers [sic], or anonymizers.
However, the lack of a Unix/Xenix restriction means that I am
permitted to possess Demons, and vice-versa.
 > NONCOMPLIANCE SUMMARY
 > The probation officer believes that Carl Edward Johnson has
 > violated conditions of supervision by:
 > Violation
 > Number Nature of Noncompliance
 > 1. Failing to report the names and addresses of two
 > Internet service providers, in violation of a
 > special condition of supervision.
 > 2. Using the Internet to access the "Cypherpunk"
 > website after being specifically instructed not
 > to use the Internet for this purpose, in violation
 > of standard condition number 3.
 > U.S. Probation Officer Action;
 >
 > On October 18, 2001, this officer received intelligence
 > information which indicated Mr. Johnson was accessing the
 > Internet using two Internet accounts which had not been provided
 > to this officer.
They certainly were provided to the probation officer...by the LEAs who
are easily able to monitor my InterNet activities by virtue of my use
of my REAL SocialSecurityAdministration Issued NAME in connection
with the accounts.
OfCourseOfCourse[TM], I suppose that, technically, my Release Conditions
require that I personally inform my PO immediately upon acquisition of any
new accounts, but realistically, since the Torture and Abuse that I have
suffered at the hands of the Federal Government have left me in such a
debilitated Medical Condition that even remembering to feed myself and
wipe my ass are major projects, it would seem that the same results are
already being attained by my using accounts which are easily identified by
the very same LEAs that my PO would be reporting my use to, anyway.
 >Mr.Johnson was using these accounts to insert
 > himself back into a "Cypherpunk" web site he had been accessing
 > during the instant offense.
Technically wrong, but spiritually correct.
 >During the probation intake with Mr.
 > Johnson on August 20, 2001, he was instructed to use the Internet
 > for the purpose of researching his medical condition and legal
 > matters only, He was specifically instructed not to access
 > the Cypherpunk website.
Uhhh....sez who?
My memory suggests that I specifically pointed out that much of
the evidence in my case resided on CypherPunks archives which
I would need to access.
Beyond that, I don't recall being specifically told not to post to
the list, although I vaguely recall suggesting that I didn't forsee
doing so, except in regard to my legal matters.
DISCLAIMER: OfCourseOfCourse[TM], since *I* am the one who
requires CopiousQuantities [WordOfTheDay: EveryBody SCREAM!!!]
of medications in order to remember to wipe my ass, I would hardly be
so bold as to suggest that I was *not* told to totally refrain from
posting to the CPUNX Disturbed Male LISP...
 > Of particular concern was the content of Mr. Johnson's e-mails,
 > which contained derogatory comments about federal officials.
True, but to make ComplimentaryComments would have involved
*lying*...
Besides, the derogatory comments were in basically the same form
that they will take in my 2255 Motion to the Court, where the truth
is, I understand, required by law.
 >On October 22, 2001, this officer, along with the investigating
 > agent in this matter, conducted an unannounced home visit at
 > Mr. Johnson's residence. Mr. Johnson was asked if he had
 > provided this officer with all Internet accounts he was currently
 > using, to which he stated he had two new accounts he forgot to
 > report to this officer. He accurately provided the account
 > addresses and stated he would not forget in the future.
Not exactly true. I vaguely remembered having gotten a HotMail
email account and provided several approximations of what I
thought the account might be named, at which point the SSAgent
provided *me* with the name of the account, which was
lamer11 at hotmail.com. (Indicating that the LEAs are, in fact,
better qualified to provide my PO with my account information
than I, myself, am...)
 >Mr. Johnson was questioned in regard to his recent postings to the
 > Cypherpunk website after being instructed by this officer not to
 > use the Internet for this purpose. Mr. Johnson became highly
 > agitated at this point, yelling obscenities and banging his fists
 > on the table. After he calmed down, however, Mr. Johnson stated
 > he misunderstood and did not realize he was restricted from going
 > into this site. He further explained that his messages, in regard
 > to federal officials, were simply commentaries to other people's
 > messages. Mr. Johnson was reprimanded for the inappropriate nature
 > of his e-mail messages and again specifically directed not to
 > access the Cypherpunk website or make any postings to that site.
Oops...
Yeah, I think that is KindaSorta right. As a matter of fact, I recall
asking for something from Probation in writing informing me of any
restrictions on my InterNet activities, but I never got one--not even
a copy of the enclosed 'Probation Report' that everyone else in the
world has seemed to have already read.
However, as a result of John Young and Declan McCullagh's
diligence in getting this important information to me, I have just
deleted the CPUNX Disturbed Male LISPs from my email
address book, and can now add a print out of the 'Probation
Report' to my list of things to carry with me and periodically
read in an effort to remind myself of the current status of my
restrictions on freedom.
 > It is noted that a thorough inspection of Mr. Johnson's residence
 > was conducted during this home visit which did not yield anything
 > unusual.
If it was a thourough inspection, then why was the MountainOfTrash
in my room left undisturbed? (I was hoping THEY [TM] would bag
it and take it away as evidence, but no such luck...)
 > The Probation Office is giving Mr. Johnson the benefit of the doubt
 > when he says he misunderstood this officer's instructions. We will
 > continue to monitor him closely, and are recommending that no
 > further action be taken at this time. Should Mr. Johnson's
 > noncompliant behavior continue, the Court will be immediately
 > notified and further sanctions will be requested.
TRANSLATION: After three years of UnConstitutional Denial of Proper
Medical Care, and SubsequentSubjection to Criminal Torture&OR&Abuse
for exhibiting symptoms of my untreated Medical DisAbilities, it should
come as no surprise to anyone that, absent clear written instructions as
to the limits and restrictions on my InterNet activities and 'Acceptable
Content' regarding my communications, it is unreasonable to expect me
to fulfill sometimes vague and confusing verbal requests or demands.

 > Respectfuly submitted,
 > Lornie G. Vanous
 > Senior U.S. Probation Officer
Lonnie Vanous has, in fact, been very helpful in aiding me in getting
access to medical care and proper medication, for which I am truly
appreciative.
[gNutly gNote From The World's Lamest Conspiracy Theorist:
This, however, may actually be a Clever Ruse to speed my medical
recovery to a point where it will be possible for the Federal Government
to ReHang me without it appearing that THEY[TM] are Punishing me
for being Medically UnFit--due to THEIR[TM] Torture and Abuse--to
meet my Court imposed Release Conditions.]

 > William S. Corn
 > Chief U. S. Probation Officer
 > Catherine E. Sandstrom
 > Supervising U.S. Probation Officer
 > True and correct copies of the attached were mailed by the clerk
 > to the following:
 > Robert Louis Jacob London, Esq.
 > Floyd G Short, Esq.
 > USPO - Tacoma
 > Judge Bryan
This is a list of people who need to be kept updated on information needed
to SendMySorryAssBackToTheSlammer.
OfCourseOfCourse [TM], this information was witheld from the person
most concerned with actually meeting the terms of my release, and *not*
being ThrownBackInTheSlammer. (That's *me*, eh?)

Mini-me.KILLTHEPRESIDENTKILLTHEVICEPRESIDENTANTHRAXTHECONGRESSKILLTHESUPREMESDIEPIGSDIE!




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 13:37:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:37:08 +1100
Subject: Army doubts genetic evidence; calls in OJ lawyers for
  assistance, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218082154.00a62d40@pop.useoz.com>


CATO Kaelin? The cato institute is said to be assisting the army in the 
hunt for the real killer."we suspect radical environmentalists"
As there is at least one person here who has no qualms about killing 
'savages',the operation soft drill on OJ Simpson may
appeal.Im prepared to put in 10$ US toward this cypherpunk special 
project.The cypherpunk justice posse is coming.
Johnnie Cochrane is sueing riverside PDs, officer mark davis, for the cold 
blooded murder of dante meniefield.Mark was the first killer kop nominated 
by OSD international.Steven Roach being the next.When Johnnie C has 
bankrupted them Ill be back for my pound of flesh.Run,marky run.

Anarchy, USA 1966 This documentary presents the civil rights movement as a 
part of the communist plan for world domination. Direct action_ is what 
it's all about. Undermining the state through the
spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax system,
through even more direct applications of the right tools at the right times.
When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.
Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold 




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 18 10:04:10 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:04:10 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011218100410.00808b90@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:56 PM 12/17/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
>> Yes, I have read the letter - they need to treat input from known remailers
>> differently due to worries over spam and flooding attacks, so they treat 
>> other known remailers as priviliged sources of high volume traffic.

Can't spam be repelled by not forwarding email not encrypted to
the remailer's key?  

>> This does not invalidate my point - that such special treatment could lead
>> a remop into legal problems. We have two different problems, with mutually
>> undesirable solutions.
>
>If the sending node doesn't know about the destination node, how does it
>konw where to send the traffic (even if the sender provides the address)?
>The reality is that the remailers must 'know' of each other one way or
>another. Simply being part of a 'remailer network' (anonymous or not)
>tends to already put one in a 'conspiratorial' situation.

Isn't it sufficient for a remailer node to publicly broadcast
its existance (and the protocols it handles)?  This seems to work
and there is no cooperation required --just a one-way broadcast.

Mere advertising is not evidence of a conspiracy.





 






  







From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 18 07:04:48 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:04:48 -0500
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
In-Reply-To: ;
  from juicy@melontraffickers.com on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 02:46:14PM
  -0800
References: 
Message-ID: <20011218100448.B25082@cluebot.com>


On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 02:46:14PM -0800, A. Melon wrote:
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49141,00.html
> 
> Incredible.  Abso-fucking-lutely incredible.  After telling us all about
> the poor little child pornographer, Larry Benedict, and how the mean
> old police are out to get him, Declan finally lets the other shoe drop
> in part 5 of this 5-part series.
> 
> Benedict pled guilty.

In each one of the articles, the link "plea" appeared after the second
or third paragraph, so you can read it yourself.

My articles were written in rough chronological order, with the guilty
plea taking place recently, and the motion to reopen taking place
just last month. Don't like it? Don't read it.

-Declan




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 18 10:12:02 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:12:02 -0800
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011217191306.030d9040@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011218101202.007fb550@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:35 PM 12/17/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>"ATM" is "Adobe Type Manager".  Linotype is a big font house.
>Intellectual Property laws for fonts are normally even stranger than for 
>regular material,
>but if any of these are in Postscript, they're also programs,
>so there may be DMCA issues, and there's obviously some contractual
>relationship with Adobe that lets them copyright implementations.

IIRC fonts are not copyrightable in the US, but are elsewhere, yes?

Assuming that's correct, then an algorithmic font (eg Postscript) could be
turned into an albeit large static set of pixels which wouldn't be
copyrightable in the US.




From scribe at exmosis.net  Tue Dec 18 02:31:59 2001
From: scribe at exmosis.net (Graham Lally)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:31:59 +0000
Subject: FBI Surveillance Software to be Part of Windows XP Updates 
  (fwd)
References: <3C1A2682.3897C680@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3C1F1B1F.1020204@exmosis.net>


Michael Motyka wrote:

> But a couple of questions :
> 
> Do you doubt that many in law enforcement think that universally
> backdoored systems would be right and good for society?


Only if they first define the terms for "society" - once the definition 
of such has been twisted to a desirable position (apparently one of a 
superior, over-riding patriotism in the US), then the introduction of 
backdoors becomes infintely more arguable. However, should law 
enforcement be distinguished from law making? Are the motivations of 
those that want to form a new society different to those that just want 
to lock up the people who don't?

The SSSCA is a prime example of universal back entrancing - an 
introduction of government-certified security schemes? What chance would 
there be that any, if not all of them, would have some kind of 
unpublicised (at least at first) get-in clause? This scares me more than 
any possible security flaw...

When the state becomes a higher priority than the people within it, Bad 
Things happen.

 
> Is it easier to achieve the dream of monitored systems if the OS
> business is highly monopolistic or if it is chaotic?


Business monopoly is one way of doing it. Legal presidence over the 
parts you actually want to control, in order to start eating at 
everything else is a lot more effective. And easier to maintain.

.g




From baptista at pccf.net  Tue Dec 18 08:11:18 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:11:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MY APPOLOGIES TO ALL CYPHERPUNKS - WAS Re: Returned mail:
In-Reply-To: <20011218075337.A31476@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Eric Murray wrote:

> the cause.  Otherwise, there's some other problem.
> (if you didn't see it because you're subscribed to a filtering CDR
> that filtered them, it was about 400 copies of spam).

wow busy little beaver.  i think isaw about 100 of those before i filtered
them on this end.

> 
> Either way, you shouldnt set up an autobounce that can reply to a list.
> Please fix it so it won't do that.

had a look at it - the autoresponder was sending to the list owner at
minder - not the actual list.

normally it's a very well behaved autoresponder and only responds once to
a new email address - ignores lists.  But It was sending the list owner a
new reponse each time the spam was recived.

regards
joe
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 18 11:46:40 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:46:40 -0800
Subject: CIA in NYC
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011218114640.007fd540@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:06 PM 12/18/01 -0800, John Young wrote:
>Couple of things on that. The building, which was only
>a few years old, is reported to have collapsed due to
>high heat of oil storage tanks, a small tank on the upper
>floor to serve NYC Emergency Operations, and an
>unsually large tank in the basement. The building owner,
>Larry Silverstein, who leased the WTC towers, says
>the basement tank was for emergency power. Period.

A EM shielded room (think TEMPEST) might look like an
overly large metal tank; might even be designed to look like that.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Dec 18 12:04:39 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:04:39 -0800
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218134919.00aa0890@mail.well.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <3C1F30D7.7449.5C533E3@localhost>


On 18 Dec 2001, at 13:52, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Bitmapped fonts may not be copyrightable in the U.S., but Postscript/vector 
> fonts certainly are:
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0,10000,0-1005-200-326302,00.html
> >In a case that pitted Adobe Systems
> >against a small software company in Florida, U.S. District Judge Ronald
> >Whyte of San Jose, California, ruled that computer fonts are no different
> >from other kinds of software, and enjoy full copyright protection.
> 

Interesting article.  However, it appears that it's not the fonts themselves 
that are copyrightable, but rather the "code"
that draws them.  From the same article:

The fact that a computer program produces unprotectable typefaces 
does not make the computer program itself unprotectable," Whyte wrote 
in the decision, issued earlier this week. Font designers "make creative 
choices as to what points to select based on the image in front of them 
on the computer screen."
 

The judge explicitly states that the typefaces themselves are not
copyrightable,  and implies that other "code" which produces the same
effect would not be covered by the  copyright. Further, if it could be
shown that there really aren't any creative decisions being made
here, that any code that produces the same effect would have to
be essentially the same code, then presumably the judge's
decision would be overturned. I'm not being sarcastic with the
"presumably" here, so please ridicule me for my naivate, I need that
every now and then.

Personally, I think the judge is an idiot, that the amount of "creativity"
in deciding what reference points to use to vectorize a font is
about equal to the amount of "creativity" required to decide what
color to make the oceans on a world map, but I'm sure there are
fraphic design people who would vehemently disagree; "of course it
should be blue, but what exact shade of blue?"

 
> >I thought everyone knew.  Fonts aren't copyrightable.  Font *names* are.
> >The reverse of the norm.  With a story or novel the body of text is
> >copyrightable, the title isn't.
> >

Are you sure the font name isn't a trademark rather than a copyright?
That would seem to make a lot more sense, although come
to think of it, neither seems to make much sense.

> >DCF

George




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 18 09:22:53 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:22:53 -0500
Subject: FC: Chuck Schumer wants to invade privacy of gun buyers, open NICS
  database
Message-ID: 

Thanks to Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY), one of our great champions of privacy, 
private property, and limited government, any American buying a gun from a 
dealer or other licensed seller may have their name permanently embedded in 
the FBI's NICS database.

Currently federal law (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html) 
orders the FBI to "destroy all records" of a gun purchase that is approved 
as lawful. Naturally those champions of individual liberty at the FBI and 
Justice Department have creatively interpreted this straightforward 
requirement -- to mean precisely the opposite of what the law says. Thus 
records have been kept for a period of 90 to 180 days.

Schumer's bill would "allow the Federal Bureau of Investigation to access 
NICS audit log records for the purpose of responding to an inquiry from any 
federal, state, or local law enforcement agency in connection with a civil 
or criminal law enforcement investigation." Seems to me that would let the 
FBI access and store records of the vast bulk of firearm purchasers from 
this point on, if this bill were to become law. Here's the text of 
Schumer's proposal:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:s.01788:

Naturally the section reducing the privacy of lawabiding Americans is 
titled "privacy protection." Glad to know that Schumer hasn't lost his touch.

-Declan

(Note: Not all U.S. firearm purchases must go through a dealer who checks 
in with the NICS database. Private sales are still, for now, allowed 
without federal records kept.)

***********

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200112\NAT20011217a.html

    Senators Propose 'Gun Owner Registration'
    By Jeff Johnson
    CNSNews.com Congressional Bureau Chief
    December 17, 2001
    Capitol Hill (CNSNews.com) - Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) wants the
    Department of Justice to keep personal data on law-abiding gun buyers
    from the National Instant Check System (NICS), and to offer the
    information for unlimited use by state and local agencies.
    National Rifle Association Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre
    called the move "gun owner registration, plain and simple."
    Making good on a promise he made during a Senate Judiciary Committee
    hearing December 6, Schumer introduced the "Use NICS in Terrorist
    Investigations Act" (S. 1788) after Attorney General John Ashcroft
    refused to allow the FBI access to NICS records of lawful gun
    purchases.

***********

CENTER-RIGHT, a free weeklyish e-newsletter of centrist, conservative, and 
libertarian ideas

Issue 187, Dec 10, 2001

========================================================


"Terrorism and Guns: Ashcroft's 'coddling' of gun owners,"

by Dave Kopel (http://www.davekopel.com), Independence Institute,

and Prof. Glenn Reynolds (http://www.instapundit.com), Univ. of Tennessee

from the National Review Online, Dec. 17, 2001,

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel121701.shtml



Attorney General John Ashcroft has come under fire for what Boston Globe 
columnist Tom Oliphant calls "coddling" gun owners.  Oliphant's attack was 
the latest round in the concerted assault on Ashcroft's Second Amendment 
positions, which started this spring when Ashcroft announced his view 
(since supported by the recent U.S. Court of Appeals decision in United 
States v. Emerson, 
http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/99/99-10331-cr0.htm) that the 
Second Amendment protects an individual right to arms.

Ashcroft's stance was consistent with that of the attorneys general for 
Ronald Reagan, Franklin Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, and Andrew Jackson, 
among others (http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel052901.shtml).  It 
was also consistent with most Supreme Court statements citing the Second 
Amendment, including everything the Rehnquist Court has ever said 
(http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/35FinalPartOne.htm).

Ashcroft's view mirrored repeated congressional declarations of the 
individual right to arms -- including in the Freedmen's Bureau Act of 1866, 
the Property Requisition Act of 1941, and the Firearms Owners' Protection 
Act of 1986.  It's also compatible with a wide variety of gun controls, as 
demonstrated by the Court of Appeals decision in Emerson, which ruled that 
the particular federal gun law at issue did not violate the Second Amendment.

Ashcroft was, however, out of step with the antigun groups, who recognize 
that a meaningful Second Amendment makes it impossible to ban guns across 
the board.  For the same reason, the attorney general was out of step with 
the position of the Clinton/Gore/Reno administration.  Indeed, the 
difference between the Bush/Ashcroft view of the Second Amendment 
(http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment050500a.html) and the 
Clinton/Gore/Reno view was -- as President Clinton admitted -- the reason 
Gore lost five close states, and thus the election.

Still smarting from that humiliation, gun prohibition groups have decided 
to attack Ashcroft for obeying federal gun statutes and for complying with 
a regulation created by Attorney General Janet Reno.  Last week, on the 
morning Ashcroft was scheduled to testify before the Senate Judiciary 
Committee, New York Times reporter Fox Butterfield turned a press release 
from a gun-prohibition group, the Violence Policy Center 
(http://www.vpc.org/press/0112ash.htm), into a Times article.  Ashcroft's 
opponents on the Senate Judiciary then used the article to excoriate 
Ashcroft for obeying the law.  Predictably, gun-prohibition sympathizers 
like Oliphant and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's Cynthia Tucker have 
begun piling on.

At issue was Ashcroft's decision to tell the FBI that it couldn't start 
rummaging though the federal records of *legal* gun buyers as part of its 
terrorism investigation.  Indeed, the law forbids the keeping of such 
records in the first place.  It does, however, authorize the federal 
government to retain records of people -- such as illegal aliens, or people 
with temporary visas -- who illegally attempt to buy guns.  Those records 
are available to the FBI for any and every law enforcement purpose.

Mr.  Butterfield didn't bother to inform his Times readers about what 
federal law actually says.  So let's examine the laws directly.

Since 1998, all federally regulated gun purchases require that the buyer 
obtain approval from the FBI's "National Instant-Check System," which 
ensures that the buyer is not a "prohibited person."  NICS checks the 
buyer's name against a database of felons and other prohibited people.

The NRA had pushed the instant check as an alternative to the Brady Bill's 
waiting period.  As a compromise, Congress made the waiting period 
effective for five years (1994-98) for handguns only, to be replaced in 
1998 by the instant check on all guns.  Determined to prevent NICS from 
being perverted into a gun registration system, Congress -- thanks to votes 
of many Brady Bill supporters -- specifically forbade the government to 
compile records of lawful purchasers.

As enacted, the national instant check law, 18 U.S. Code 922(t) 
(http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=922) 
provides that:

(2) If receipt of a firearm would not violate subsection (g) or (n) or 
State law, the [Instant-Check] system shall --
(A) assign a unique identification number to the transfer;
(B) provide the licensee with the number; and
(C) destroy all records of the system with respect to the call (other than 
the identifying number and the date the number was assigned) and all 
records of the system relating to the person or the transfer.

(Emphasis added.)

This means, of course, that if the feds were following the law, there 
wouldn't be any records to examine, since they're supposed to be destroyed 
once a sale is approved.

It also means that every congressman who voted for final passage of the 
Brady Act in 1993 (including Senators Kennedy, Biden, and Leahy, as well as 
then-Representative Schumer) voted for this explicit ban on keeping the 
federal records of legal gun buyers.

The 1993 prohibition was reinforcing a 1986 Congressional statute, the 
Firearms Owners' Protection Act (FOPA), which creates a blanket ban on a 
federal gun registry.  The relevant part of FOPA, 18 U.S. Code 926 
(http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=926), 
provides:

(a) The Secretary may prescribe only such rules and regulations as are 
necessary to carry out the provisions of this chapter...  No such rule or 
regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms 
Owners' Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained 
under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be 
recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by 
the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor 
that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms 
transactions or dispositions be established.  Nothing in this section 
expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the 
disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

Of the current members of the Senate Judiciary Committee who were in the 
Senate in 1986, only Kennedy voted against passage of FOPA.  Senators 
Biden, Leahy, Hatch, Thurmond, Grassely, and Specter all voted for it, and 
hence for the registration ban.

In addition, the annual appropriation for the Department of the Treasury 
(which controls the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) always 
contains a ban on spending any funds for creation of a federal gun registry.

Quite plainly, all this means that (1) records aren't supposed to be kept 
on legal purchases of firearms, and (2) it's illegal to establish a 
national gun registration system.  This was underscored in the recent case 
of RSM v. Buckles, 254 F.3d 61 (4th Cir. 2001) 
(http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=4th&navby=case&no=001777P), 
where the federal Court of Appeals pointed out that the government's power 
to scrutinize gun records was limited, and that a national gun-registration 
system -- even one established through "backdoor efforts" -- was illegal.

Even so, when preparing to implement the National Instant Check System, 
then-Attorney General Reno announced that the government would keep records 
on lawful gun purchasers for 180 days.  The stated purpose of these records 
was to audit NICS, to make sure it wasn't being misused (e.g., to ensure 
that gun dealers were not requesting instant checks on people who were not 
their customers -- for example, in case a gun-store owner started 
requesting background checks on his daughter's boyfriends).

The NRA sued, arguing that by saying the records had to be destroyed, 
Congress did not mean they should be destroyed "eventually, when the 
Attorney General gets around to it."  The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 
District of Columbia, in a 2-1 decision 
(http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment081000a.shtml), upheld the 
180-day record retention.  The majority opinion, written by a Clinton 
appointee, claimed that federal law "does not prohibit all forms of 
registration."  The Clinton majority also asserted that because Congress 
did not say the records had to be destroyed "immediately," the records 
could be destroyed sooner -- or later.

Dissenting, Judge David B.  Sentelle, a Reagan appointee, retorted that 
Congress had been perfectly clear.  "The Attorney General's position," 
wrote Sentelle, "strikes me as reminiscent of a petulant child pulling her 
sister's hair.  Her mother tells her, 'Don't pull the baby's hair.'  The 
child says, 'All right, Mama,' but again pulls the infant's hair.  Her 
defense is, 'Mama, you didn't say I had to stop right now.'"

The Senate responded to Reno's machinations by restating its 1993 
intent.  In 1998, Senator Bob Smith (R., N.H.)  proposed a rider to an 
appropriations bill to mandate immediate records destruction.  The Senate 
approved the Smith Amendment, 69 to 31, thanks in part to the support of 
Senators Daschle, Leahy, and Murray.  Later, a conference committee 
stripped the Smith Amendment, as well as some other non-appropriations 
riders, from the appropriation bill.

During the 2000 election, candidate Bush condemned the Clinton/Gore/Reno 
registry of legal gun buyers, and promised to terminate it.

Meanwhile, Reno promulgated a regulation cutting the retention time to 90 
days.  The Reno regulation forbids the use of the NICS registry for general 
law enforcement purposes, while allowing registry use for auditing the 
performance of NICS, as well as for civil or criminal cases arising from 
the operation of NICS.

Thus, it is plainly illegal for the FBI to dig into the NICS registry for 
general investigations.  Had Attorney General Ashcroft allowed such access, 
he would have violated the law.  (This summer, Ashcroft proposed a revised 
regulation to cut the retention time to 24 hours, but even this shorter 
time period violates the congressional mandate that records be destroyed, 
not kept for "a short period of time.")

Fox Butterfield neglected to tell his readers about the 1986 law forbidding 
a federal gun registry.  He also didn't tell them about the 1993 law 
mandating destruction of records on legal buyers.  Of the Smith Amendment 
-- which passed the Senate 69-31 -- Butterfield wrote, "That amendment was 
defeated."

The Senate Democrats had some basis for being angry with Ashcroft after he 
began the Senate hearing by declaring, "To those who scare peace-loving 
people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only 
aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve."

Ashcroft may be correct that his proposals are important for antiterrorism, 
and do not violate the Constitution.  But our system of checks and balances 
works best when all potential civil-liberties restrictions are subjected to 
critical public scrutiny.  Indeed, the value of the Leahy/ACLU loyal 
opposition was demonstrated at the Ashcroft hearing, when the attorney 
general promised the military tribunals would not normally meet in secret, 
and would be confined exclusively to terrorist offenses.  (Both positions 
are much more rights-protective than the text of President Bush's November 
13 executive order authorizing the tribunals.)

Ashcroft's harsh words against the skeptics were unfortunately reminiscent 
of Bill Clinton's denunciation 
(http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/LawRev/Preventing_a_Reign_of_Terror.htm) 
of the civil liberties groups that lobbied against his plan to use the 
Oklahoma City bombing as a pretext for a huge expansion of federal 
surveillance and wiretapping, and use of the military in domestic law 
enforcement -- although none of the Clinton proposals would even arguably 
have prevented the bombing.

The Democrats also feel betrayed that the Bush administration announced the 
military tribunals, the eavesdropping on attorney-client conversations, and 
similar new measures before the ink was barely dry on the misnamed USA 
Patriot Act (http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel092101.shtml), in 
which Senate had caved in to administration pressure for even more 
government surveillance, and for the power to conduct secret searches of 
homes and businesses.  These new laws do not sunset and are not restricted 
to terrorism cases; they apply as well to federal enforcement of laws about 
pornography, drugs, endangered species, child support, and everything else.

After the House Judiciary Committee unanimously passed a much better, and 
properly focused, antiterrorism bill, Tom Daschle pressured Senate 
Judiciary Committee Chair Pat Leahy to surrender to Ashcroft's demands for 
a much broader bill.  Leahy, did so.  Leahy & co.  feel double-crossed now 
that the administration has implemented military tribunals by executive 
decree, after Congress had already given the administration almost 
everything it asked for.

A proper response would be for the Senate Judiciary to commence hearings on 
repealing or sun setting the many non-terrorism provisions of the USA 
Patriot Act, which consist mostly of items that have been on the FBI 
bureaucracy's wish list for many years, and that had never been able to 
pass previous Congresses.

Instead, we have the absurd spectacle of senators denouncing the attorney 
general for respecting civil liberties, and for obeying federal statutes 
and his predecessor's regulation.  At Ashcroft's confirmation hearings, 
Democrats extracted absolute promises that he would obey and enforce all 
the laws, even ones he disagrees with.  Now, he's being skewered for not 
inventing a loophole in federal laws that allow no room for loopholes.

Would it make sense for Congress to change the law to allow registration of 
legal gun purchasers, to assist terrorism investigations?  No one has yet 
made such a case.  The FBI has gone fishing for every possible bit of 
information on the 600 aliens who have been detained.  This doesn't mean 
that we need to drastically reduce the privacy of half our citizen 
population (about half of all households own guns) simply for the sake of 
fishing expeditions.

Remember, current law allows record retention for people who illegally 
attempt to buy guns.  It would also allow putting the name of every alien 
with a temporary visa, and every known illegal alien, into the FBI database 
of prohibited persons -- since those people cannot buy guns lawfully.  [18 
USC Sec. 922(d)(5)(B) & (g)(5)(B) 
(http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=922)].

Yet the St.  Petersburg Times, perhaps the most antigun daily newspaper in 
America, wrongly told its readers last Sunday that Ashcroft had cut off 
access to records of illegal aliens who had been stopped from buying guns.

Current law also allows gun tracing -- the investigation of the sales 
history of a particular firearm.  If the FBI finds a firearm in the home of 
a detained person, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is allowed 
to trace the gun (using its serial number) from its manufacturer to the 
wholesaler to the retail store.  From there, the BATF can interview the 
person who bought the gun, whoever he transferred it to, and so on.

As part of the tracing that is already allowed, the BATF compiles lists of 
guns used in crimes, and can trace ownership records.  The BATF has 
successfully connected some of the guns on its trace list with some of the 
detained people.

We don't know if any of the detained people had permanent resident status 
(which would allow them to buy guns).  It's also possible that an illegal 
alien or a temporary could obtain a driver's license in his own name, buy a 
gun, and get approved by NICS.  The problem is that, according to the 
General Accounting Office, some -- but not all -- non-immigrant aliens and 
known illegal aliens are put on the NICS prohibited list.  What we need is 
better record keeping on aliens, not on law-abiding Americans.

Yet -- even for aliens who slipped through the current, incomplete NICS 
list -- if anyone purchases more than one handgun in a five-day period, his 
purchases are reported to federal and local law enforcement, and those 
records are currently available for checking 
(http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=27&PART=178&SECTION=126a&YEAR=2001&TYPE=TEXT).

It might help the FBI to gather information on detained suspects if every 
time a person checked into a hotel or motel, a record were kept by the 
federal government.  They could then study the suspect's travel 
patterns.  Yet we don't register all hotel and motel stays for the entire 
population.  The privacy interests of the American people are held to 
outweigh the possible benefit to law enforcement.

Similarly, we could require the registration of everyone who purchases or 
checks out a book on nuclear physics or biological or chemical 
warfare.  It's hard to deny that it would be helpful for the FBI to be able 
to check this database against the names of the detainees.  But we don't 
keep lists of people who own books -- even especially dangerous or 
incriminating books -- because First Amendment and privacy rights are more 
important.

The case against gun registration is stronger still.  Even besides the 
privacy issue, there is the undeniable fact that gun registration lists 
have been repeatedly used for gun confiscation.  This has happened in 
California, New York City, England, Canada, Australia, and Nazi-occupied 
Europe, among other places.

Before Sarah Brady became head of Handgun Control, Inc. (now renamed "The 
Brady Campaign"), her predecessor, the late Nelson T. "Pete" Shields, 
explained the plan to The New Yorker in 1976:

The first problem is to slow down the number of handguns being produced and 
sold in this country.  The second problem is to get handguns 
registered.  The final problem is to make  possession of all handguns and 
all handgun ammunition -- except for the military, police, licensed 
security guards, licensed sporting clubs,  and licensed gun collectors -- 
totally illegal.  [Richard Harris, "A Reporter at Large: Handguns," New 
Yorker, July 26, 1976, p. 58.]

Gun confiscation is, of course, an indispensable tool for tyranny, as our 
Founders knew -- and as Mullah Omar proved quite recently.  As the Boston 
Globe reported 
(http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/343/nation/How_Omar_led_Taliban_to_power_then_defeat%2B.shtml):

Omar guaranteed the residents a peaceful and secure community if they 
agreed to surrender their arms to him.  If the residents were ever 
threatened by someone from outside, Omar pledged to be responsible for 
their safety.

Within three or four days, everybody in the town surrendered their weapons 
to Omar...

Congress was right to outlaw federal gun registration, and Attorney General 
Ashcroft is right to obey the law.  The media and the Senate -- which 
behaved with such irresponsible passivity when Ashcroft rammed the 
so-called "USA Patriot Act" through Congress -- ought to stop demanding 
infringements of the Second Amendment.  Instead, they should start opposing 
all efforts to further erode the Bill of Rights.  Attorney General 
Ashcroft, meanwhile, needs to stop denouncing those who are defending the 
Fourth and Fifth Amendments with the same commendable scrupulousness with 
which he protects the Second.

=========

CENTER-RIGHT is edited by Eugene Volokh, who teaches constitutional law, 
copyright law, and a seminar on firearms regulation at UCLA Law School 
(http://www.law.ucla.edu/faculty/volokh), and organized with the help of 
Terry Wynn and the Federalist Society (http://www.fed-soc.org/).

Check out (and link to) our Web site,
http://www.center-right.org




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----- End forwarded message -----




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 17:27:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:27:13 +1100
Subject: CIA poised for unprecedented involvement in domestic
  investigations, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218122006.00a6c030@pop.useoz.com>


AT FIRST FAUSTINE WASN'T SURE ABOUT THIS HUGE DILDO BUT SHE ONLY NEEDED A
LITTLE BIT OF CONVINCING. WE LUBED IT UP WITH HER WET PUSSY AND SHE
WAS BEGGING FOR IT IN HER TIGHT LITTLE ASSHOLE... WE COULDN'T BELIEVE HOW 
DEEP SHE TOOK IT!
BUT SHE LOVED EVERY INCH AND THEN WANTED MORE!
DO YOU KNOW ANY MORE GIRLS LIKE  FAUSTINE?


I have friends who listen to the cia like police scanners,this is a little 
old butt I believe she's still a member of good standing
.We learned to be patient observers like the owl. We learned cleverness 
from the crow, and courage from the jay, who will attack an owl ten times 
its size to drive it off its territory. But above all of them ranked the 
chickadee because of its indomitable spirit.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 18:19:28 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:19:28 +1100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218130635.00a71150@pop.useoz.com>


 >>The prime goal of any legal system is to maximize number of criminals. 
I'm sure that search of JYA's premises would yield enough stuff for a 
100-year sentence, excluding any controlled substances. Each copy of a 
software program that cannot be substantiated with purchase receipt: 5 
years. That incorrect 1998 IRS return where he forgot to include $100 
that >>Gordon paid for cryptome CD: 10 years.

Im sure too that were that to happen,cryptomes,cypherpunks and OSDs 
clickthroughs could take off.It would be a great sign we were on to 
something.I mean we all know AP is a cheap laugh,washed up,garden variety 
lunatics like JGordon
take it seriously.BWAAHAHAHAH! The prime goal of OSD will be to minimize 
the number of criminals starting by putting jeff out of his misery.(my 
0.02c) Say goodbye to joshua.KILLTHEPRESIDENTTHEVICEPRESIDENTANTHRAXALLGOVT!

VISAVISAVISA! BURNWACKENHUTBURN!




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 18 10:33:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:33:45 -0500
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011218101202.007fb550@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011217191306.030d9040@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218133305.00aa1c90@mail.well.com>


Why wouldn't an original typeface be covered under U.S. copyright laws?

-Declan

At 10:12 AM 12/18/2001 -0800, David Honig wrote:
>IIRC fonts are not copyrightable in the US, but are elsewhere, yes?
>
>Assuming that's correct, then an algorithmic font (eg Postscript) could be
>turned into an albeit large static set of pixels which wouldn't be
>copyrightable in the US.




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Dec 18 13:39:00 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:39:00 -0800
Subject: Oregon Link to 9-11?
Message-ID: 


Fox News reports that a senator from Oregon says
there is a link of the state to 9-11. No other details
provided by the senator. Anybody know more about
this or have a link?

Wonder if this has anything to do with ISTAC.gov the
CIA station allegedly in Bend, OR. ISTAC has been
visiting Cryptome over the past few days, which is
either a new friend who saw my grand jury testimony
about the station, read the trial transcript, has been 
perusing i-net archives, is a front for Safeweb or
Privsec, or a federal sniffer spoofing ISTAC and
setting poisoned bait.

ISTAC, a national department of the CIA, according to
anonymous, does interception work, and has at least
two stations, one eastern US and the one in Bend, OR.

Scott Mueller, according to his sworn testimony, has 
nothing to do with his namesake cut-out.

Listen, this may be a vicious rumor, but I was told yesterday
there is a site on the Net, or a newsgroup message, which 
claims that Cryptome is the most reviled Web site among 
intel agencies. Has anybody seen this hard sought highest 
of praise? Need that for a long-sought motto, ad banner,
tatoo, singalong, Xmas card to an in-law.




From frissell at panix.com  Tue Dec 18 10:44:18 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:44:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218133305.00aa1c90@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 


I thought everyone knew.  Fonts aren't copyrightable.  Font *names* are.
The reverse of the norm.  With a story or novel the body of text is
copyrightable, the title isn't.

DCF

On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Why wouldn't an original typeface be covered under U.S. copyright laws?
>
> -Declan
>
> At 10:12 AM 12/18/2001 -0800, David Honig wrote:
> >IIRC fonts are not copyrightable in the US, but are elsewhere, yes?
> >
> >Assuming that's correct, then an algorithmic font (eg Postscript) could be
> >turned into an albeit large static set of pixels which wouldn't be
> >copyrightable in the US.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 18:46:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:46:36 +1100
Subject: A women for duty,a boy for pleasure,but a melon for ecstasy
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218133745.00a75e20@pop.useoz.com>


 >>...He pled guilty, agreeing to a plea bargain

There are numerous examples of the plea bargain cosh being bought down 
heavily on an innocent person.
Its routinely abused as was seen at mike moores sisters home town story 
on"The awful truth"
By betraying such ignorance of oppression/repression in practise you've 
earned my consignment to cornhole corner.
Squeal like a pig!

"Theoretically, because violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 
1986 have been included in the terrorism crackdown, hackers and spammers 
could be sentenced to life in prison."




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 18 10:52:02 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:52:02 -0500
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218133305.00aa1c90@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218134919.00aa0890@mail.well.com>


Bitmapped fonts may not be copyrightable in the U.S., but Postscript/vector 
fonts certainly are:

http://news.cnet.com/news/0,10000,0-1005-200-326302,00.html
>In a case that pitted Adobe Systems
>against a small software company in Florida, U.S. District Judge Ronald
>Whyte of San Jose, California, ruled that computer fonts are no different
>from other kinds of software, and enjoy full copyright protection.

See the font FAQ:
http://nwalsh.com/comp.fonts/FAQ/cf_13.htm
>  scalable fonts are, in the opinion of the Copyright Office,
>computer programs, and as such are copyrightable

-Declan

At 01:44 PM 12/18/2001 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>I thought everyone knew.  Fonts aren't copyrightable.  Font *names* are.
>The reverse of the norm.  With a story or novel the body of text is
>copyrightable, the title isn't.
>
>DCF
>
>On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > Why wouldn't an original typeface be covered under U.S. copyright laws?
> >
> > -Declan
> >
> > At 10:12 AM 12/18/2001 -0800, David Honig wrote:
> > >IIRC fonts are not copyrightable in the US, but are elsewhere, yes?
> > >
> > >Assuming that's correct, then an algorithmic font (eg Postscript) could be
> > >turned into an albeit large static set of pixels which wouldn't be
> > >copyrightable in the US.




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 18 10:58:55 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:58:55 -0500
Subject: Chuck Schumer wants to invade privacy of gun buyers, open NICS
  database
Message-ID: <20011218135855.A29965@cluebot.com>


----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh  -----


From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Dec 18 14:06:05 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:06:05 -0800
Subject: CIA in NYC
Message-ID: 


The report a while back in the NY Times on the secret
CIA station located in 7 World Trade Center, claimed
its primary role was to surveil UN members and staff.
And its cover was the Secret Service office in the
building (which also housed NYC's Emergency
Operations).

Couple of things on that. The building, which was only
a few years old, is reported to have collapsed due to
high heat of oil storage tanks, a small tank on the upper
floor to serve NYC Emergency Operations, and an
unsually large tank in the basement. The building owner,
Larry Silverstein, who leased the WTC towers, says
the basement tank was for emergency power. Period.

However, while many buildings have emergency power
systems, few have the size of tanks in 7 WTC. Which may
indicate that the building housed a variety of operations
needing uninterruptable power, and which, in turn, could
explain why NYC put its emergency operations center
there despite public ridicule for putting it on a high floor,
of a glass walled building, next to a likely terrorist
target.

Moreover, it is unlikely that the purpose of the CIA station
was only that made public to the Times. More likely is
that the public story is a cover for what the station did.

One possibility is that it engaged in communication
interceptions, if not transmissions to agents as well, and 
could have made use of the antennas atop WTC 1, or 
antennas cloaked by the public antennas.

Now whether bin Laden, or whoever planned the attack,
knew of this, or suspected it, could enrich the speculation
about why the towers were targeted.

Certainly it would take no comsec genius to perform
analysis of what was coming and going atop the towers,
or that may have been going on under cover of the
tower's emissions. All the public emissions could have
been discounted and the remainder subject to detailed
scrutiny.

Perhaps the ordinary mujahadeen couldn't do that kind
of analysis but certainly a slew of other nations could.
As well as private comsec companies, of which there
are dozens in NYC peddling their services to US and
foreign clients.

So, if the CIA was surveilling these private security
companies, along with the comms of the UN members,
it may well be that countersurveillance picked up the
snoops and the information was peddled to assassins
or used to justify engaging hit squads to take out the
transgressors.

Finally, oil storage tanks are required by building and
fire codes to have especially durable fire-proofed enclosures,
the design based on the size of the tank and any expected
worse case scenario. At least this is the case when a
facility is subject to municipal regulations. Which we 
know the WTC was not. Whether the Center's unusual
vulnerability attacted the attack is a fair question.

But don't expect any findings to be made public is this
is the case, for that might require delving into which
operations in the Center invited retaliation by those
who had been attacked by them.




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 18 04:12:08 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:12:08 +0200
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
References: <200112171933.OAA01512@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <003a01c187bd$3701fb50$5600a8c0@mark>


From: "Faustine" 

> Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them did have nightmares
about the
> Constitution. Not as a piece of paper dancing around on Mickey Mouse legs
or
> whatever the hell you're getting at, but as an idea repersenting the rule
> of law that was going to lead to them being jailed for murder. Which
> unfortunately never happened, but so it goes.

Thanks for proving my point. (For the intellectually impaired: the
Constitution never DOES anything. Your magical belief in its virtues is
equivalent to pagan's beliefs in idols: they accomplish nothing. A law must
be backed by force - and it's the FORCE that does this or that, not the
law.)

> I'm sure anyone who speaks English as a first language didn't find it odd
or
> have a problem understanding such a common expression. It's an idiom, not
a
> metaphor. Your English is generally great, but you might want to have a
look at
> various online ESL dictionaries of idiomatic usage if you have time, it
probably
> would make things a little easier for you here.

Yes, I am sure that imagining the Constitution standing will make it much
easier. Delusions are known to do that.

> The language issue might also explain why you missed my original point.

Great. Try rephrasing it without using metaphors, idioms, or whatever.

> No
> hard feelings; I'd rather talk about issues than quibble over this sort of
> thing anyday. I'm sure if I were trying to do this in French or German
instead,
> I'd be having the same sort of trouble myself.

I'm not objecting to the language; English is fine. I'm objecting to
delusions. Laws don't ACT, no matter what language you're using.

You should rely more on your guns and less on your papers.

Mark




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Dec 18 11:27:42 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:27:42 -0500
Subject: CIA in NYC
Message-ID: 


> Young[SMTP:jya at pipeline.com]
> 
> 
> The report a while back in the NY Times on the secret
> CIA station located in 7 World Trade Center, claimed
> its primary role was to surveil UN members and staff.
> And its cover was the Secret Service office in the
> building (which also housed NYC's Emergency
> Operations).
	[...]

> Now whether bin Laden, or whoever planned the attack,
> knew of this, or suspected it, could enrich the speculation
> about why the towers were targeted.
> 
	[...]

> But don't expect any findings to be made public is this
> is the case, for that might require delving into which
> operations in the Center invited retaliation by those
> who had been attacked by them.
> 
John:

Remember to apply Occam's razor occasionally. The WTC
towers were one of the best known landmarks around the 
world, were filled with people, stood well clear of the 
surrounding buildings, and symbolized the globalization/
Americanization of the world UBL hates.

The WTC towers were (from UBLs presumed viewpoint)
about the best US targets he could have picked, simply from
a PR, ideology, and practicality standpoint. The presence 
of a CIA office in a neighbouring building was not required 
to make the WTC towers target #1.

I used to work at 101 Barclay Street, across the street from
WTC #7. I watched it going up from my office window. I hated
the building - it blocked my view south. 101 Barclay seems to
have survived with little damage, possibly because WTC7 
shielded it from the falling debris of #1 & #2, and later #7
fell almost staight down.

Peter Trei









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From pcw2 at flyzone.com  Tue Dec 18 11:40:22 2001
From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:40:22 -0500
Subject: CIA in NYC
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <200112181944.fBIJi2m13254@slack.lne.com>


>Moreover, it is unlikely that the purpose of the CIA station
>was only that made public to the Times. More likely is
>that the public story is a cover for what the station did.

I went to a meeting in the WTC this spring. It took a half hour to 
get through security because they had to type all kinds of details 
into some computer and take my picture with a camera. It all seemed 
like a preposterous amount of security and rigamarole even after the 
93 bombing. If they really cared about stopping attacks like that, 
they would do a better job guarding the garage and keeping track of 
the surveillance tapes after the fact.

On the floor of my meeting, though, I figured out what was probably 
going on. The floor held a number of offices including several branch 
offices of foreign banks. These weren't for passbook customers making 
deposits. They were the kind used to do big deals. My guess is that 
someone used the databases and photos of those coming and going for 
intelligence purposes.

Perhaps there was something more a foot too, but the concentration of 
financial deal making seems high enough to be worth the effort. The 
UN can be a 60+ minute drive by car.

-Peter




From wolf at priori.net  Tue Dec 18 14:42:00 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> Can't spam be repelled by not forwarding email not encrypted to
> the remailer's key?

Who is to say that spammers won't use remailer clients that automatically
encrypt to the remailers' keys?

Using remailer clients should be *easy*. Saying "this is too hard for the
average spammer to figure out" isn't acceptable.


-MW-




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Dec 18 14:57:12 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:57:12 -0800
Subject: Oregon Link to 9-11?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Answering myself on the Bend Or matter:

Somebody reports that Bend is the location of
an imagery downlink facility for the spooks, the
point from which fiber optic cable is linked to
Russia and the Far East, and where NSA and NRO
operate facilities. And provided a possible source
of more information on this. Report to follow.

That Scott Mueller had nothing to do with any
of these operations is not the question he was
asked by Robb London, merely was he associated
with the CIA. No connection at all, he swore.




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Dec 18 14:59:59 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:59:59 -0800
Subject: CIA in NYC
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Answering myself on what the CIA was and is up to
in NYC:

Somebody in the counter-surveillance world says 
keep at it, you're on the right track.

Look, we fools got nothing to offer except an open
spittoon. Spit here.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 20:08:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:08:24 +1100
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218145832.00a63eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>something similar to 'innocent until proven innocent'. > That's the only 
defence against 'conspiracy'.

 >> Typical Choate, missing the point. A remailer simply gets sent a 
message, applies it's decryption key, and sends the contents on to the next 
address (yes, this type of remailer does not include nice features such as 
cover traffic). It has no idea if the address it received the message from 
is a remailer. It has no idea if the address it forwarded the message to is 
a remailer. It doesn't need to. Chaining is the sender's problem. The point 
here is that the remailer treats other remailers exactly as it treats 
source and destination nodes. There is no file on the remailer which says 
"I'll treat hosts from this list specially". This prevents the remop from 
having to worry about being sucked into a conspiracy charge for a crime 
commited by a different remop. He doesn't know, need to know, or want to 
know what other sites are remailers. He doesn't need to know the other 
remops, or communicate with them, except to inform the world (not just 
remops) that 'there is a remailer here." Peter Trei

Oh ye of little faith ,jimmy,jimmy,jimmy.What of the old soft drill attack 
as the BEST defence?
Peter knows all about section 25,paragraph 18.-"need to know." Thats the 
beauty of open conspiracy ,operation soft drill,as well and all.
One other thing choaty,please dont drag that nasty creep matt drudge in 
here,he's stinkin up the page more than Tim on a bad day.
Thanks mate,see ya.yr cobra professor rat. "It's an idiot, not a metaphor."




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Dec 18 15:54:32 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:54:32 -0800
Subject: spam and Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3C1F66B8.1837.697AC55@localhost>


On 18 Dec 2001, at 14:42, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
> 
> > Can't spam be repelled by not forwarding email not encrypted to
> > the remailer's key?
> 
> Who is to say that spammers won't use remailer clients that automatically
> encrypt to the remailers' keys?
> 
Wouldn't it HAVE to do that if they want their spam forwarded?
I mean, doesn't the remailer perform one layer of decryption
to find the address that it's supposed to next forward the message 
to?

Say, what IS the situation with spam and remailers anyway?
are spammers really trying to use the mixmaster network to
send lots of spam, or is it more like that the remailers get sent lots 
of spam and have to filter it out because it would take too
long to process?  I mean, does spam follow the protocol?  

> Using remailer clients should be *easy*. Saying "this is too hard for the
> average spammer to figure out" isn't acceptable.
> 
> 

You know what else should be easy?  Setting up and running a 
remailer! So why shouldn't an ambitious spammer set up his
own remailer server? Or better yet, a whole bunch of them?
Except instead of sending dummy traffic, it sends spam.
This is actually a really good thing from remailer security,
because a dummy message that ends up telling
some fool about russian porn sites ot nigerian graft opportunities is 
much more befuddling to an attacker than one
that just disappers, right?

George  

> -MW-




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 18 16:03:04 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:03:04 -0800
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
In-Reply-To: <3C1F30D7.7449.5C533E3@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218134919.00aa0890@mail.well.com>
  
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011218160304.00804a40@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:04 PM 12/18/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:
>
>Interesting article.  However, it appears that it's not the fonts themselves 
>that are copyrightable, but rather the "code"
>that draws them.  From the same article:

This is what I remembered (from this list BTW) and why I suggested that the
bitmaps that the program generates are not protected in the US.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Tue Dec 18 13:05:39 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:05:39 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers 
Message-ID: <200112182105.QAA23820@mail.lokmail.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: application/pgp
Size: 2783 bytes
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URL: 

From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 18 16:22:48 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:22:48 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011218162248.0080f1e0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:42 PM 12/18/01 -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> Can't spam be repelled by not forwarding email not encrypted to
>> the remailer's key?
>
>Who is to say that spammers won't use remailer clients that automatically
>encrypt to the remailers' keys?

Yes they could.  

>
>Using remailer clients should be *easy*. Saying "this is too hard for the
>average spammer to figure out" isn't acceptable.

The most commonly held point of view that I've
perceived on this list is that spammers are too lazy/stupid
to do this -or even add a simple string token to a line.

That may of course be wrong or in some cases any unexploited weakness
is unacceptable.

.....

As far as "flood" attacks on *any* node goes, you have to throttle
at the routers.  I think the ping attacks on yahoo of yesteryear
showed this.

Cheers




From jei at cc.hut.fi  Tue Dec 18 06:27:36 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:27:36 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [Spy News] Bush administration seeks to relax curbs on FBI domestic
 spying (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:56:04 +0100
From: Mario Profaca 
Reply-To: spynews-owner at yahoogroups.com
To: "[Spy News]" 
Subject: [Spy News] Bush administration seeks to relax curbs on FBI domestic
    spying

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/dec2001/spy-d18.shtml
Bush administration seeks to relax curbs on FBI domestic spying

By Kate Randall
18 December 2001

Attorney General John Ashcroft is considering relaxing restrictions on the
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) that limit spying on political
organizations, churches and other groups in the United States. If put into
effect, the change in FBI rules would constitute a fundamental loosening of
curbs on the agency’s domestic intelligence operations, and would allow the
government to spy on groups and individuals solely because of their
political beliefs.

Ashcroft said the proposed change is part of the effort to shift the axis of
Justice Department activity from the prosecution of crime to the prevention
of terrorism. In the wake of the September 11 events, the Bush
administration has issued a rash of executive orders that attack basic
democratic rights and challenge civil liberties long protected by the US
Constitution. These orders have included the authorization of secret
military tribunals to try alleged terrorists; the roundup of more than a
thousand mainly Middle Eastern men, some of them detained indefinitely and
in secret; and the authorization of eavesdropping on attorney-client
conversations of those in custody.

The new Justice Department proposal poses a particular threat to the civil
liberties of any individual or political organization that opposes the
domestic or foreign policy of the government. The loosening of restrictions
would allow the FBI to spy on groups or individuals—including the use of
“roving” wiretaps and e-mail surveillance—without providing a judge with
proof of “probable cause.” Presently, meetings of political groups, services
at mosques or churches and other private gatherings are off-limits to the
FBI unless it can prove the likelihood that a crime is in progress.

Widespread domestic spying was carried out in the 1960s and ’70s as part of
the FBI’s notorious COINTELPRO (counter-intelligence program) operation.
Under then-FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, COINTELPRO targeted black
nationalists, civil rights activists and opponents of the Vietnam War. Those
under surveillance included boxer Muhammad Ali, actress Jane Fonda, Dr.
Benjamin Spock, Dr. Martin Luther King and the Black Panther Party, among
many others.

The FBI carried out a vicious campaign for almost 20 years against opponents
of government policy, utilizing such methods as illegal wiretaps, blackmail
and forgery, extortion and in some cases outright murder. FBI agents were
also involved in incitement to violence in their work in racist
organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan.

When the FBI’s widespread surveillance methods began to be exposed in the
1970s, Congress was obliged to carry out an investigation into the agency’s
spying activities and methods. In the wake of this probe, the bureau adopted
internal guidelines prohibiting agents from using charges of subversion or
the threat of terrorism to justify the monitoring of Americans’ political
activities. Ashcroft now wants to rewrite the FBI code of conduct to allow
the agency to resume spying on its domestic political opponents.


COINTELPRO’s dirty record

An examination of two COINTELPRO cases makes clear the ominous implications
of Ashcroft’s proposal, and the dangers posed to democratic rights by the
revival of these methods.

One of the most infamous cases of FBI infiltration was in connection with
the 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama,
which left four young girls dead and injured another 22 adults and children.
The racially motivated bombing was the twenty-first in eight years and the
third in only 11 days, following federal orders to integrate the city’s
public schools.

As early as 1964, FBI agents in the KKK identified four men in the 16th
Street Church bombing. However FBI Director Hoover, a fervent opponent of
civil rights, blocked their prosecution. The case was eventually shut down
in 1968 with no charges being filed against the KKK members.

The FBI maintained its network of agents inside the Birmingham KKK following
the bombing, including one of its most notorious informants, Gary T. Rowe,
who later admitted to involvement in violent assaults on blacks. These
included the 1961 attack on Freedom Riders at the Birmingham bus station and
the 1965 murder of Viola Liuzzo, a 39-year-old civil rights activist from
Detroit. The Justice Department later acknowledged it had known about Rowe’s
connection to these racist attacks, but claimed it had no evidence linking
him to the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing.

The FBI finally reopened the case in 1996, leading to the indictment in 2000
of two KKK members, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry, on first-degree and
reckless murder charges. Cherry was ruled mentally incompetent to stand
trial, but Blanton was finally convicted last May of four counts of
first-degree murder.

Another COINTELPRO case involved FBI infiltration of the Black Panther
Party. Elmer “Geronimo” Pratt was arrested and charged with the
kidnap-murder of Los Angeles schoolteacher Caroline Olsen. Olsen and her
husband were attacked on a tennis court in Santa Monica, California in 1968
by two black men; she was abducted and killed. Her husband Kenneth
identified Pratt as one of the assailants three years later from a photo
provided by the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD).

Geronimo Pratt was framed up as part of the FBI vendetta against the Black
Panthers. The main witness against him was Julius Butler, who had functioned
as an informant for both the FBI and LAPD inside the Panthers. Butler had
been expelled from the group by Pratt because he advocated violence.

At trial, Butler testified that Pratt had confessed to the murder of
Caroline Olsen. The FBI closed its file on Butler during the trial so that
he could deny being an informer when questioned. He resumed his informing
activities after the trial. Pratt was convicted of kidnapping and murder in
1972 and served 27 years in jail for a crime he did not commit before
finally being released in 1999. A Superior Court judge in California ruled
that his conviction should be overturned due to misconduct by the Los
Angeles district attorney’s office.

These two cases give only a glimpse of the types of domestic
counterintelligence methods the Bush administration now wants to revive. As
with the majority of provisions enacted since September 11 in the name of
the “war on terrorism”—most of them by executive fiat—they pose a threat to
the civil liberties not only of alleged terrorists but the American
population as a whole.

The proposed change in spying guidelines would mean political groups could
be targeted for surveillance simply because the government designates them
as “subversive” due to their political views. Such groups could include
left-wing or socialist parties, workers organizations, civil rights
advocates or anyone who speaks out against government policy.

Former FBI Director Louis Freeh gave an indication of what types of
organizations could be targeted for accelerated domestic spying as a result
of relaxed regulations on the FBI. In speech on May 10, 2001, Freeh said,
“Domestic terrorist groups represent interests that span the full spectrum
of political and economic viewpoints, as well as social issues and
 concerns.”

The former FBI chief included in his list of groups that could be designated
as terrorist by the government “Anarchists and extremist socialist
groups—many of which, such as the Workers’ World Party, Reclaim the Streets
and Carnival Against Capitalism—have an international presence and, at
times, also represent a potential threat in the United States.”

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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Tue Dec 18 06:28:02 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:28:02 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [Spy News] ANALYSIS: CIA poised for unprecedented involvement in
 domestic investigations (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:06:57 +0100
From: Mario Profaca 
Reply-To: spynews-owner at yahoogroups.com
To: "[Spy News]" 
Subject: [Spy News] ANALYSIS: CIA poised for unprecedented involvement in
    domestic investigations

http://www.nandotimes.com/nation/story/196509p-1908209c.html

ANALYSIS: CIA poised for unprecedented involvement in domestic
investigations

Copyright © 2001
Christian Science Monitor Service

Special Report: America Responds
By ABRAHAM McLAUGHLIN, Christian Science Monitor

WASHINGTON (December 17, 2001 12:09 p.m. EST) - The Central Intelligence
Agency has been given new freedom to get involved in domestic surveillance
and investigations in ways that are unprecedented in its history.

The CIA's intelligence gathering has long been kept as separate as possible
from domestic law enforcement, which is bound by strict evidence-gathering
rules and legal safeguards protecting the rights of those investigated.

But as the nation girds itself against global terrorism carried out on
American soil, the barriers between covert, stealthy intelligence and
by-the-book domestic law enforcement investigations are beginning to melt.

Suddenly, for instance, the CIA will now have access to testimony collected
by federal grand juries.

And the CIA, FBI, and other federal agencies are, for the first time, being
allowed to share vast amounts of information ranging from phone records and
credit cards statements to profiles of suspected terrorists.

These shrinking restraints come as new anti-terrorism legislation adopted
this fall grants the FBI far broader wiretapping and other investigative
powers.

And while many see the new cooperation as essential in combating the
enormous threat, for others it raises civil-liberties concerns - and
resurrects dark memories of CIA monitoring of domestic groups, including
1970s anti-war protesters.

Those domestic intrusions drove Congress and the president to tighten
restrictions dating back to the 1947 creation of the CIA that bar the agency
from any "domestic police function."

"Traditionally, there's been a sharp demarcation between FBI and CIA turf
... but now there's more ambiguity," says Loch Johnson, author of "America's
Secret Power: The CIA in a Democratic Society."

One of the most-significant changes is the CIA and other government
agencies' new access to one of the most powerful domestic investigative
tools - federal grand-jury proceedings - under the USA Patriot Act, which
passed in the wake of Sept. 11. Now, if any grand-jury investigation
involves matters of "foreign intelligence or counterintelligence" its fruits
may be shared with relevant federal agencies, the statute reads.

"That's a big change in criminal law," notes Robert Davis, founder of the
University of Mississippi's Journal of National Security Law.

Critics worry that "foreign intelligence" information is a very broad
category that extends far beyond just fighting terrorism. They also worry
the information flow won't just be one way. Instead, the CIA may eventually
suggest certain avenues for investigation.

Defenders of the change argue prosecutors will be zealous about defending
their grand-jury proceedings from outside interference.

What really worries critics is the CIA's past history of domestic
operations. In the '60s and '70s, for instance, Operation CHAOS included CIA
involvement in spying on U.S. citizens including anti-war protesters, black
militant groups and even congressmen.

President Nixon's White House encouraged these activities, convinced that
foreign powers stood behind anti-war radicals.

Yet advocates of the changes say the present threats on American soil differ
significantly from the domestic snooping conducted by the Nixon
administration.

In fact, supporters point out that drastic government measures - such as
Abraham Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War - have
typically been temporary. Indeed, the most-controversial elements of the USA
Patriot Act do eventually expire.

In the meantime, the stepped-up cooperation is crucial, says Gates, who
argues the relevant historical parallel is not Operation CHAOS but Pearl
Harbor.

In 1941 - as in 2001 - "disparate government agencies had bits of
information" that pointed to an attack.

"But there was no single agency to pull everything together in a coherent
analysis of the threat," Gates says.

The new information sharing is the only way to prepare against new attacks.
The USA Patriot act allows the CIA, FBI, the Border Patrol, and the
Immigration and Naturalization Service to share information broadly. And
it's likely to lead to FBI and CIA agents working closely together here in
the U.S.

This greater cooperation comes at a time of significantly increased federal
investigation powers. For instance, under the PATRIOT act, law enforcement
can now more easily conduct secret searches of homes and businesses, while a
change to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act makes it easier for law
enforcement to obtain wiretaps.

Such activity may help prevent future terrorist acts. But there is also
concern that it will lead to a blending of the intelligence and
law-enforcement cultures.

Yet there are hints it won't be so easy for the two agencies to work
together, given the history of antagonism between the two and the CIA's
reluctance to repeat its past mistakes.

Somehow, experts say, the agencies must strike a tricky balance. "The
concept of keeping them separate makes good sense in general," says
University of Virginia law professor John Norton Moore. But after Sept. 11,
"it's inconceivable not to have the two talking to each other."


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*** FAIR USE NOTICE. This message contains copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Spy News is making it available without profit to SPY NEWS eGroup members who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information   in their efforts to advance the understanding of intelligence and law enforcement organizations, their activities, methods, techniques, human rights, civil liberties, social justice and other intelligence related issues, for non-profit research and educational purposes only. We believe that this constitutes a 'fair use' of the copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Law. If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use,' you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.
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From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 18 13:51:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:51:45 -0500
Subject: Oregon Link to 9-11?
In-Reply-To: ; from
  jya@pipeline.com on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 01:39:00PM -0800
References: 
Message-ID: <20011218165145.A2425@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 01:39:00PM -0800, John Young wrote:
> Scott Mueller, according to his sworn testimony, has 
> nothing to do with his namesake cut-out.

Wasn't that the real estate agent who actually -- gasp! -- was a
licensed real estate agent?

http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.04.09-2001.04.15/msg00156.html

-Declan




From jei at cc.hut.fi  Tue Dec 18 06:54:00 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:54:00 +0200 (EET)
Subject: FC: DNA tests show federal officials planted fake evidence of lynx
 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:58:30 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: politech at politechbot.com
Subject: FC: DNA tests show federal officials planted fake evidence of lynx



http://washingtontimes.com/national/20011217-7117603.htm

   Rare lynx hairs found in forests exposed as hoax
   By Audrey Hudson
   THE WASHINGTON TIMES
   
        Federal and state wildlife biologists planted false evidence of a
   rare cat species in two national forests, officials told The
   Washington Times.
        Had the deception not been discovered, the government likely
   would have banned many forms of recreation and use of natural
   resources in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest and Wenatchee
   National Forest in Washington state.
        The previously unreported Forest Service investigation found that
   the science of the habitat study had been skewed by seven government
   officials: three Forest Service employees, two U.S. Fish and Wildlife
   Service officials and two employees of the Washington Department of
   Fish and Wildlife.
        The officials planted three separate samples of Canadian lynx
   hair on rubbing posts used to identify existence of the creatures in
   the two national forests.
        DNA testing of two of the samples matched that of a lynx living
   inside an animal preserve. The third DNA sample matched that of an
   escaped pet lynx being held in a federal office until its owner
   retrieved it, federal officials said.

   [...]



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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Tue Dec 18 06:54:11 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:54:11 +0200 (EET)
Subject: FC: U.N. meeting hears proposal for global human database, ID #s
 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:11:55 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: politech at politechbot.com
Subject: FC: U.N. meeting hears proposal for global human database, ID #s



http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2001/12/14/FFX058CU6VC.html 
                                                                         
   Refugees meeting hears proposal to register every human in
   GENEVA, Dec 13 AAP
   Published: Friday December 14, 7:18 AM
   
   Every person in the world would be fingerprinted and registered under
   a universal identification scheme to fight illegal immigration and
   people smuggling outlined at a United Nations meeting today.
   
   The plan was put forward by Pascal Smet, the head of Belgium's
   independent asylum review board, at a roundtable meeting with
   ministers including Australian Immigration Minister Philip Ruddock
   this afternoon.
   
   Mr Smet said the European Union was already considering a Europe-wide
   system, using either fingerprints or eye scanning technology, to
   identify citizens.
   
   But he said the plan could be extended worldwide.
   
   "There are no technical problems. It is only a question of will and
   investment," he said.
   
   "If you look to our societies, we are already registered from birth
   until death. Our governments know who we are and what we are. But one
   of the basic problems is the numbers of people in the world who are
   not registered, who do not have a set identity, and when these people
   move with real or fake passports, you cannot identify them.

   [...]




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From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Dec 18 14:02:55 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:02:55 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > Ok, then I propose to surround your property from any vantage point on
> > public land, and setup gigantic speakers from which I would recite very
> > loud speeches in your direction at 3:00am.
> 
> No public land in the area that isn't managed by the city, you'll need to
> get permission from the public to use it. We also have a amplified music
> ordinance so you'd have to shutdown between midnite and 6am anyway.

But it's free speech, not music, regardless of amplification, so how does
the ordinance apply?
 
> > As I would be on public land and excercising my freedom of speech, you
> > couldn't do anything as that would be censorship.
> 
> Not at all, you're still annoying the community at large.

But in your world, there's nothing anyone can do to stop me, because if
they were to do so, they'd violate my freedom of speech.  If the
constitution applies to all Americans, then only a Russian or other
non-American could tell me to shut the fuck up. 

Acording to your statement two sentences down from this one, you can't do
shit to stop me as you're an American and the Constitution applies to all
Americans.

> > Or are you ready to submit that "Congress shall make no law ... freedom of 
> > expression" only applies to Congress?
> 
> No, the Constitution applies to all Americans.

But the 1st ammendment doesn't say "No American shall make no laws
limiting the freedom of the press, etc." It says "Congress shall make no
law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or
the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the
Government for a redress of grievances." 

Hence the distinction.  There in lies your error and lack of
understanding.  

And this is why on private property the property owner decides what is and
isn't allowed.  This is why on public property that belongs to a specific
state or city Congress has nothing to do with it, and the owner may decide
on the rules of the house: "Amendment X The powers not delegated to the
United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So now by muttering something about city ordinances about amplified music
and certain hours, you've just admited that entities other than Congress
may pass laws, and that Freedom of speech can be limited by any other
entity, including: the states, cities, and individuals.


And therefore your message below is completely wrong.  Congratulations,
you've just proven yourself wrong:


From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 22:03:40 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:03:40 +1100
Subject: Rinse and Repeat.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218162929.00a621f0@pop.useoz.com>


Operation soft drill has a pool of 2$ on richard Armitage.He's suddenly MIA 
and some quad anon has made a prediction that he's dead.No evidence is 
presented yet the predictor says they have proof.Is this a set up? Will the 
great white porker reappear? His 'dad' says he's just gone drinking at the 
Buda-bing.
The proof of death problem.A prediction is made yet the deaths in 
dispute.To save paying on the installment plan a trusted agent might be 
hired by predictor, The agent has to provide security to the designated 
pool authority.
Also some locating and identifying identification that stays in remailing 
motion for several years as insurance.
Regular sting and drug tests to avoid corruption,also cross country support 
where ever possible aiming for zero knowledge.Something better than the 
LAPD lab's required.The trusted agent would have to provide state of the 
art forensic coroners,skills inc DNA as that would be the gold 
standard.www.yourdead.com is an extraneous layer to the most simple and 
optimal KISS solution,yet its one that has other uses in a world more 
concerned with human rights,crimes against humanity and accountability 
technology every day.

f0(x) = a0 +a1 x+ <+ am-1 xm-1 is the polynomial

over GF(q) is constructed, and the evidence of death,dna sequence 
generally, is a0. From the beginning, each user has a point (xi, f0(xi)) 
with xi 9 0. For the first key refreshment, a new polynomial f1 is 
constructed from f0. More generally, for the kth key refreshment, a 
polynomial fk+1 is constructed from fk. The polynomial fk+1 is equal to fk 
+ gk, where gk is a random (m-1)-degree polynomial with gk(0) = 0. After 
each key refreshment the secret is unchanged, but user i's new secret share 
is (xi, fk+1(xi)) = (xi, fk(xi) + gk(xi)). An adversary who knows less than 
m current secret shares at any particular time knows nothing about the 
evidence.Thanks to RSA for the maths.Kill the president.proffr1 at elf




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Dec 18 14:17:54 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:17:54 -0500 (est)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



So from your reply, I'll assume the answer to my "So are you finally
evolving?" question is still No.

I, and everyone in the world, is aware that commerce != capitalism, and
that you are avoiding the question.  As there are no CACL promoters
(except in Choate') it is not possible for them to suppose
otherwise.  Even in Choate' CACL promoters are aware that commerce !=
capitalism.

Capitalism is of course the system that allows commerce to happen.  
Commerce is not legally possible in a communist or fascist system as such
a system does not allow private ownership.

You still have avoided the question of the ants and the grasshopper.  To
quote you again:

> And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
> not what somebody else thinks it's worth.

So by this answer you are stating that the grasshopper merits death and
the ants merit survival.  There is no amount of twisting you can perform
to escape this, other than a retraction of your statements.

As such a system (a meritocracy) necessitates the reward of those who
perform work and the demise of those who do not, socialism does not fit in
here.  You don't get a C- and get to pass in a meritocracy.  You work and
survive, or don't and die.

One good example of a meritocratic system is capitalism.  You work or you
have money, you make money, you get to buy food, you get to buy/rent
shelter, you get to attract mates and thus propagate.  You don't work and
you have no money, you don't get to survive.

Therefore by your statement above that you have no problem with a
meritocracy, and my statement that capitalism is a meritocracy, you have
to agree that you also have no problem with capitalism.

Notice, I did not say greed.

Nor does Merriam Webster mention greed in the definition of capitalism.
See www.m-w.com

Main Entry:	cap7i7tal7ism 
Pronunciation:	'ka-p&-t&l-"iz-&m, 'kap-t&l-, British also k&-'pi-t&l-
Function:	noun
Date:	1877
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of
capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and
by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined
mainly by competition in a free market




----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > So now you're saying that the very thing you've had a problem in the past
> > with because it's capitalism is now a good thing. So are you finally
> > evolving?

> 
> I don't have a problem with commerce per se. Capitalism I do have a
> problem with, greed <> good.
> 
> Commerce <> Capitalism (which will come as a shock to a lot of CACL
> promoters when/if they ever realize it).
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 








From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Dec 18 17:46:02 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:46:02 -0800
Subject: Wired on e-gold
In-Reply-To: <76fd45e6e79799c888fe92def4dc1d8a@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3C1F80DA.14643.6FDC0F2@localhost>


On 19 Dec 2001, at 1:30, Nomen Nescio wrote:


> Of course the cypherpunk interest in e-gold revolves around its vaunted
> privacy protection.  The article provides a much-needed dose of reality to
> those who still harbor fantasies that e-gold is interested in protecting
> the privacy of its customers.  Those who participated in the fractious
> debates between e-gold founders and its customers in the early days
> will remember the company's sniff of dismissal at "elite ivovy-tower"
> arguments in favor of its privacy.  Alaskan attorney Daniel J. Boone in
> particular made a number of principled appeals to e-gold officials to
> hold to their early promises of privacy protection, to no avail.
> 

Which illustrates why "cypherpunks write code".  Promises to 
protect your privacy aren't worth much. particularly when the
people who have the authority to enforce contracts are the ones
trying to get your info in the first place.

The only way to have good confidence that someone 
won't give out your personal info is if they don't have
your info. 


> Jackson is lying about the unimportance of HYIPs.  Independent e-gold
> vendors estimate 30, 50 or as much as 90 percent of e-gold transactions
> go into pyramid scams, and the largest single holding in the system
> belongs to a shut-down Ponzi.  

I'd ask for a source, but I really don't care that much.  Although 
would like to say that I suspect using "transactions" as
a metric is itself probably misleading.  It's like the dot bombs that
would have a volume of twice the number of outstanding shares
every day, yet 90% of the stock was never publically
traded. You could say the average share traded twice a day,
but that would be highly misleading. I'm not a real gold bug,
really I'm not, but I could play one fairly convincingly if I wanted to.
Gold bugs don't do a whole lot of transactions, they hold
their gold. Commodities traders and gold bugs are very different
animals, but if they wanted to appeal to commodities traders,
they should've called it e-pork-bellies.  If the idea was to
appeal to suckers trying to get rich quick,
maybe e-Hillary-Clinton-Cattle-futures. 



> Criminals love privacy, they love anonymity.  

They love their own privacy, but hate other peoples'.
A thief would be very disappointed if he had no way of
knowing who was rich and who was poor.  How would he know
whom to profitably rob? A thief would love to know
who had guns and who didn't. Then he'd know whom
he could rob safely.  

>Remailer operators soon find
> that a substantial majority of the messages they send contain nothing
> but harrassment and threats.  

No they don't; remailer operators never get a clue what "a
substantial majority of the messages they send contain".
Rather, the only time they'll be made aware of what message they
carry contain is 1) if they're the last hop and 2) there's a complaint.
Only a tiny minority of messages will have both apply.


>Few customers use anonymity services
> for positive purposes, to protect their privacy while engaging in
> legitimate activities.  With most people, if they have nothing to hide,
> they don't hide it.  

Total and unmitigated bullshit. In fact, everyone who isn't
an exhibitionist is hiding stuff most of the time, and most
of them are performing a public service in doing so.

>Only paranoids and extremists will adopt anonymity
> technologies without nefarious purposes in mind.  Anyone proposing to
> offer new services for privacy and anonymity should be prepared to deal
> with the onslaught of criminals who will use the system for bad ends.
> 
> 
This is backwards.  The reason that nobody insists, for example,
that Blockbuster not sell lists of what moves they've checked out
is not that they wouldn't care if this was done, but rather that
it wouldn't occur to them that such a thing might happen in the
first place. It is not true that only somone with a "nefarious purpose"
in mind would want that list kept confidential; rather, only somone
with a nefarious purpose would try to obtain such a list
on someone else in the first place. 

George




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Dec 18 17:55:46 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:55:46 -0800
Subject: MS DRM OS
In-Reply-To: <3C1FE178.1050701@exmosis.net>
Message-ID: <3C1F8322.3815.706AA1E@localhost>


On 19 Dec 2001, at 0:38, Graham Lally wrote:

> Ralph Wallis wrote:

> If the patent hasn't been picked up by the courts yet, then why not? 
> *If* the SSSCA were to come into effect (and I have heard little about 
> it for several months now... biding its time?),

I suspect that someone has pointed out to the sponsors how 
completely insane the SSSCA as drafted is, and they're
trying to figure out if it's possible to redraft the thing in
such a way that it retains its essence yet does not
outlaw electric toasters.  It's not. 

> then surely all other 
> OSes (subject to legal boundaries) would be prevented by the patent from 
> implementing the requirements in the bill?
> 

Nah; it just means that anyone making any electrical or mechanical
device for the next twenty years would have to pay Microsoft 
royalties.

> ...and to appease the pedanty, it's hard to have a /more/ correct 
> analogy when there was no analogy in the first place. 

"Surely "is analogous to" is a reflective relation?

>There, got it out 
> of my system...
> 
> .g
> 
George
> -- 
> "Sometimes I use google instead of pants."




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Dec 18 18:02:52 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:02:52 -0800
Subject: Wired on e-gold
In-Reply-To: <76fd45e6e79799c888fe92def4dc1d8a@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218175940.02e3e830@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 01:30 AM 12/19/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:

>
>
>Criminals love privacy, they love anonymity.  Remailer operators soon find
>that a substantial majority of the messages they send contain nothing
>but harrassment and threats.  Few customers use anonymity services
>for positive purposes, to protect their privacy while engaging in
>legitimate activities.  With most people, if they have nothing to hide,
>they don't hide it.  Only paranoids and extremists will adopt anonymity
>technologies without nefarious purposes in mind.  Anyone proposing to
>offer new services for privacy and anonymity should be prepared to deal
>with the onslaught of criminals who will use the system for bad ends.

One would assume then that most governments are paranoids, extremists and 
criminals since the use of privacy/secrecy and even anonymity technologies 
are stock and trade in some of their agencies.

steve




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Tue Dec 18 02:11:34 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:11:34 +0800
Subject: Poor little child pornographer
References: 
Message-ID: <3C1F1656.BAABFB12@mozcom.com>


Sadly, the guilty plea says nothing about probable guilt. I don't blame
you for thinking so, but I know that many people - some of them known to
me personally - have been induced by their own attorneys to plead guilty
to a bogus sex crime in a plea-bargain rather than face the instant
prejudice of a jury and the anti-accused bias of the legal system
whenever a sex crime is charged.

When children are alleged to be involved that goes double. Add general
public ignorance of matters relating to electronic media and you have a
perfect setting for a prosecutor and judge to bring in any verdict they
like. Many are cutting their losses by pleading guilty to a lesser
offense than that originally charged, despite the fact that they will be
branded for life, rather than risk an even larger sentence in a "worse"
facility or one in which they won't be guaranteed protected or solitary
confinement.

It is incredible. It is disgusting. It is also true.

Marc de Piolenc
Iligan, Philippines

"A. Melon" wrote:

> Benedict pled guilty.
> 
> He pled guilty, agreeing to a plea bargain calling for 37 months in
> prison.
> 
> This "innocent" man agreed to spend 3 years in prison for something he
> didn't do.  He agreed to brand himself for life as a child pornographer





From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 17 23:49:07 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:49:07 +1100
Subject: Cypherpunk Ban, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218174922.009f7eb0@pop.useoz.com>


BS >>Assassination-Politics-Quality Anonymity *isn't* available or usable,

I dont believe that you believe *that* Its bollocks anyway rip.

 >>AP-Quality payer-and-payee-anonymous digital cash isn't available,

Op centre's BUMs are.AP in its Operation Soft Drill form protects the 
switch to e-cash,least thats the plan.rip van.

 >>any discussion of "how could it be used?" or "like, that'd be cool, huh 
huh!", at least by people who *do* understand the technology and state of 
its deployment, is strictly speculative philosophical bullshitting, not 
active conspiracy.

Thanks,Ill be sure to call you as an expert witness.You might consider a 
career as a journalist or priest as added insurance.Just to be on the 
*safe*side.

 >>Now, it's possible that the Fedz in question really understood this at 
the time,

I think they did,yet they carried on,thats what Im going to tell 
joshua.Robb london and jeff gordon deserve to die.

 >>Jim Bell's such a mainstream sympathy-inspiring figure, especially with 
his alleged history of stink-bombing IRS offices and his alleged 
paperwork-based harassment of bureaucrats and politicians allegedly with 
the so-called "common-law court" folks, some of whom allegedly *are* 
dangerous loons, that in the absence of extemely competent counsel, skilled 
at not only explaining really obscure technical material to hostile 
non-techies but also at dealing with seriously uncooperative clients, a 
conviction was a slam-dunk, so not only does it give them Federal Brownie 
Points for busting a "dangerous terrorist assassin" and preventing him from 
doing anything else real, but it serves as a deterrent for future 
JimBell-Wanabees who *don't* understand that the technology isn't there, 
and besides, he was in their face, and kept getting in their face after 
they'd successfully framed him. <<

Lock up all those out of the *mainstream*? Associating with loons? Said the 
Pot to the kettle.Counsel was sacked.
Obscure technical detail?Like how to use a search engine! WTF! Federal 
points for spending a small fortune on someone who needed an intervention 
order,like thousands of others,every day.So he did pull 10 big ones for 
being a "dangerous terrorist assassin"
In which case this is not *speculative philosophical bullshitting*.at all 
BS,its something very real and very dangerous to those deluded fools that 
think they rule us.Make up your fucking mind.It is or it isnt.They are or 
they aren't.Deterrent seems to have boomeranged on them as they look like 
keystone Kops for throwing the book at a shadow.Didnt deter CJ,didnt deter 
me and Iv'e had someone make a 'prediction' already.The publicity jim 
achieved with tactical brilliance alerted me to AP.How did you hear about 
it? The technology is right here,right now for AP to be used in its ,"let 
it all hang out" mode,or,as I like to call it,from the essay,operation 
*soft drill*.Look around,its here all right,in your face.
Jim gets in the shit covered *face* of the authorities because he's an 
anarchist.Not a plastic timmy mayboy anarchist but a real flesh and blood 
anarchist.Are you or have you ever been a *crypto-anarchist*?

 >>Is it likely that Jeff Gordon understood what was real about the tech 
and was doing this out of pure malice, as opposed to not understanding it 
and actually believing that Bell was a real threat? I doubt he cared enough 
about justice that, if he did come to understand that AP wasn't real, that 
he'd either apologize for his mistake or let it get in the way of an easy 
win.<<

It was noticed at the time the clash of interests.Claggart gordon lied 
about our billy jim budd.For that he should die,soon.


 >>And CJ just kept jumping in the way yelling "Nyahh Nyahh" and looking 
wacko, and even back before 9/11, furriners didn't have civil rights, and 
he didn't get the "Oh, he's just Canadian" exception to that, because he 
was scaring the Canadians too.

Jesus H Christ scared the shit out of the moneychangers and might have hurt 
a child,actually he was under suspicion of pedophilia so its lucky they 
nailed him to a tree. Leonard peltier was kidnapped/deported from 
canada,hell I was.FUCK KANADA,FUCKING FASCIST AMERIKKKAS ASS BUDDIES! If 
its illegal to scare people,lock up cheney,asscroft and armitage.The whole 
rotten coup crew.Your real brave taking on people who cant answer back.

 >>I've almost always found the weather in Seattle to be gorgeous, except 
one or two times that it was also pouring rain here in San Narcisco; maybe 
I'm just lucky. And Seattlers *smoke* a lot also, and it's always that 
nasty tobacco stuff, unlike down here :-)

So its true what they say about the long term effects.

 >>But the bigger problems are that they're Fedz, and that they 
fundamentally don't have much useful work to do,

Not like *me*

 >>there's real hostility to them up there which they respond to in 
macho-tribal fashion, and face it, if you've got a choice of keeping your 
job by doing a big dangerous-terrorist bust, would *you* rather go after 
the real Aryan Nations types, or would you rather go after a Jim Bell or CJ 
which gets you almost as many Brownie Points without actually being 
dangerous or requiring serious police work?

Your a sack of wet brownies if you think those bozo's got anything out of 
it except decreased life expectancy.They are good at wasting taxpayers 
hardearned.Theres some real AN types on this list too btw,meet Tim May.and 
my east coast hitman.Some serious dangerous work was done in portland 
recently,Kudos to my e-mail mate in the PPD.

 >>Sure, your coworkers might know it's a sucker play, but it looks almost 
as good on the paperwork that goes to Washington, which is good for the 
budget and your department's reputation, and in return they'll be happy you 
got this annoyance out of their face, and it's not like they're getting 
much non-cynical self-respect out of what they're usually doing.

Great insight,sure your not a *fed*? You must be,or else your off your 
face.Why dont you smell what your shovelling.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Dec 18 18:56:02 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:56:02 -0800
Subject: MS DRM OS Begets SSSCA
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3C1F8322.3815.706AA1E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C1F9142.32578.73DD7D2@localhost>


On 18 Dec 2001, at 20:57, John Young wrote:

> SSSCA is far from dead, it may have a good chance
> of enactment according to Mike Godwin's essay today,
> "Coming Soon: Hollywood Versus the Internet:"
> 

I know he's theoretically one of the good guys, but for some reason
Godwin pisses me off.  


> But what's the "collateral damage," exactly? Perhaps the 
> most likely scenario is this: at some near-future date - perhaps 
> as early as 2010 - individuals may no longer be able to do the 
> kinds of things they routinely do with their digital tools in 2001. 
> They may no longer be able, for example, to move music
> or video files around easily from one of their computers to 
> another (even if the other is just a few feet away in the same 
> house), or to personal digital assistants. Their music 
> collections, reduced to MP3s, may be moveable to a limited 
> extent; unless their digital hardware doesn't allow it. The 
> digital videos they shot in 1999 may be unplayable on their 
> desktop and laptop computers -- or even on other devices -- 
> in 2009.
> 
> And if they're programmers, trying to come up with the next 
> great version of the Linux operating system, for example, 
> they may find their development efforts put them at risk of 
> criminal and civil penalties if the tools they develop are 
> inadequately protective of copyright interests. Indeed, their
> sons and daughters in grade-school computer classes may 
> face similar risks, if the broadest of the changes now being 
> proposed becomes law."
> 
> 
More likely Finns just won't come to the US, and the software
industry will move to Hong Kong or  Thailand or Costa Rica
or basically anywhere but here.  Stupid fucks.  Software can be 
written anywhere, so why is so much written here in the
high cost of labor USA, in particular in the San Fran Fucking
Cisco bay area? Well, people do kinda like it here for whatever
reason, but writing software is one of the few things that you can
do that is still (for now) almost completely unregulated.  Anything
remotely resembling the SSSCA would be the kiss of death for the
American software industry, and worse. The day the SSSCA 
passes is the day I tell Tim May, "I'm sorry I once considered
you an extremist, if anything you weren't extreme enough.
Fuck it to death, and keep fucking the corpse."
  
But I don't think that day will ever come.

George




From blancw at cnw.com  Tue Dec 18 19:11:12 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:11:12 -0800
Subject: Wired on e-gold
In-Reply-To: <76fd45e6e79799c888fe92def4dc1d8a@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 


Criminals love privacy, they love anonymity. With most people, if they have
nothing to hide, they don't hide it. Therefore the wearing of opaque
clothing will now be prohibited - anyone wearing thick socks or covering
their head will be severely beaten.

Few customers use anonymity services for positive purposes, to protect their
privacy while engaging in legitimate activities.  From now on all business
activities will be audited daily - have all your records ready and available
for inspection by end of day, or your business will be shut down and you
will be put in a dank, dark jail hole for an indefinite time.

Only paranoids and extremists will adopt anonymity technologies without
nefarious purposes in mind.  And we do not tolerate dissenting opinions,
remarks, jokes, or snide commentary - anyone caught criticizing or laughing
at us will be taken to the soccer field and whipped with a wire cable.

Anyone proposing to offer new services for privacy and anonymity should
expect to be tortured, have their eyes cut out, and perhaps shot, depending
on our mood.

Have a nice day.
Nomen Ministry for the Suppression of Vice and the Promotion of Virtue




From ashwood at msn.com  Tue Dec 18 19:35:35 2001
From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:35:35 -0800
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
References: 
Message-ID: <012b01c1883e$88798620$fd98fea9@josephas>



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Choate" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:14 PM
Subject: CDR: Re: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable

> You have a right to do whatever you want, UNTIL it impacts another. Then
> you stop, or they defend themselves.

Actually that's not true. Take for example the nearly nationwide ban on
committing suicide. This clearly only impacts a single person directly, and
is by it's very act clearly consensual. But it has even been proposed that
attempted suicide should be tried as attempted murder 1. Oddly enough this
would in some areas make attempted suicide punishable by death. There are
other examples of similar, but not as ludicrous, legal situations where the
only person being impacted is the person acting, but it's still illegal.
                            Joe




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 18 20:04:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:04:01 -0800
Subject: Libertarian Party considered harmful
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <6F75D3C5-F435-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 06:52 PM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

> [Note from Matthew Gaylor:  Last Thursday I sent a posting titled 
> "Cultural libertarianism the real threat to America?" See: 
>  by National Review 
> Online Editor Jonah Goldberg where he made The Libertarian Lie By Jonah 
> Goldberg, NRO editor
> Responding to Nick Gillespie and Virginia Postrel.
>
> Jonah Goldberg can be reached at (JonahEmail at aol.com).
> ....

[entire article by Goldberg and introductory comments by Gaylor snipped, 
due to their boring nature]

I bogged down about a third of the way into Goldberg's article. It 
reminded me of why I was so bored at the one and only Libertarian Party 
State Convention I attended (in California, circa 1991. Russell Means 
was the only interesting speaker. The rest were beyond merely boring.)

This kind of "debate" amongst apologists is why the Cypherpunks exist.

I hope more people read this essay so that more of them will give up on 
the Libertarian Party.

(If it matters to anyone, I voted for John Hospers in 1972 and I debated 
the Nolan Chart wth that very guy. Lots of libertoonians here in 
California. I met David Friedman in 1974. I tend to call myself a 
libertarian, when I'm not calling myself an anarcho-capitalist, but the 
Libertarian Party qua Party is utterly irrelevant and boring. Lots of 
nerdy clerks nattering about natural rights and quoting Rothbard. Gag!)

--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Dec 18 18:17:14 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:17:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Non-political, so probably off-topic for CP :_)
Message-ID: 



In case anyone has *any* interest...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:29:43 -0500
From: Franco Travostino 
Reply-To: anon at wireless.eecs.harvard.edu
To: Anon Fwd 
Subject: Re: Anon Fwd: analysis of covert channels in 
    draft-kung-annfwd-framework


Geoff,
the security protocol that you're describing---i.e., generate a symmetric 
key and ship it encrypted with the recipient's public key---seems very 
expensive for a layer 3 forwarder (or, better, for what I think that that 
beast is, really). I understand that  a) you have limited a forwarder's 
scope to processing signalling data only, and b) PGP email, for one, use 
keys pretty much the way you said. Yet, I think one could do much better 
with a Diffie-Hellman cycle producing a batch of symmetric keys, which need 
not to be exchanged across the wire. This is what IKE (rfc2409) does. IKE 
has all sort of wrinkles to it in order to thwart DH vulnerabilities to 
men-on-the-middle attackers. A forwarder implementing such solution could 
attain a wide range of throughputs, possibly exceeding 1Gb/s with hardware 
crypto-assists (as commodity VPN boxes show today). Public key operations 
as you scoped will definitely lock you out of these ranges.

-franco

At 03:39 PM 12/15/2001, Geoffrey L Goodell wrote:
>In our last meeting, we discovered that we could discard the various metadata
>fields in our protocol, thus reducing the ability for attackers to discover
>clients or servers by sending an exorbitant number of packets to a forwarder
>and simultaneously monitoring the forwarder's output link.  So, with the
>stipulation that the various field types have a specified size, and each
>forwarder only provides exactly one of the three anonymity options (client,
>server, and bidirectional), the only means by which attackers can correlate
>their packets with packets found on the output link of the forwarder is to
>examine the data contained in the fields themselves.  In order for a 
>successful
>attack to be possible, it must be possible for an attacker to correlate the
>fields on the packet entering the forwarder with the packets leaving the
>forwarder; in other words, individual fields leaving the forwarder must be
>encrypted in such a manner to not be decryptable by the attacker into a form
>that the attacker can recognize.
>
>SUMMARY: We discover that the single-hop protocols are demonstrably free of
>covert channels, provided that the cipher upon which we ultimately decide is
>also demonstrably free of covert channels.  We find that if we expect to get
>away with packet sizes that do not grow linearly with the number of forwarders
>on the path between the client and the server, multi-hop forwarding depends on
>some sort of public-key infrastructure.
>
>THE "GOOD" NEWS: We need a public key infrastructure for our network of
>forwarders.
>
>THE ACTUALLY-GOOD NEWS: Clients and servers need not be a part of this 
>network,
>though forwarders must be able to verify the authenticity of their public 
>keys.
>
>DETAILS:
>
>----------
>
>I have examined the three single-hop protocols closely, and discovered the
>following:
>
>1. Client Anonymity
>
>C's certificate and the request are passed along by the forwarder on the 
>way to
>the server, so an attacker posing as a client can find the location of a 
>server
>by monitoring the forwarder's output link.  This is acceptable, though, since
>the protocol explicitly does not call for server anonymity.
>
>On the way back to the client, the message is encrypted in a symmetric key
>chosen by the forwarder, and the symmetric key is encrypted with the client's
>public key.  One apparent attack on this system would be to send a certificate
>for an arbitrary public key for which the attacker holds the corresponding
>private key; given enough computing power, the attacker could feasibly use 
>this
>private key to decrypt the symmetric key on packets leaving the forwarder and
>verify which ones contained the reply datum the attacker sent.  We can
>successfully defend against this attack by requiring that the forwarder verify
>the authenticity of the client's public key.
>
>So, to my knowledge, this protocol does not have any threatening covert
>channels.
>
>2. Server anonymity
>
>En route from the client to the server, the forwarder encrypts a packet with
>a symmetric key and sends that key encrypted with the server's public key.  To
>avoid an attack similar to the one suggested above with the client anonymity
>protocol, we require that the forwarder verify the authenticity of the 
>server's
>public key.
>
>On the way back, the messages can easily be correlated by an attacker.  But,
>symmetrically to above, the protocol explicitly does not call for client
>anonymity, and thus allowing an attacker to find client locations is
>acceptable.
>
>So, to my knowledge, this protocol does not have any threatening covert
>channels.
>
>3. Bidirectional anonymity
>
>En route from the client to the server, the forwarder encrypts the fields with
>a randomly generated symmetric key of its choosing, and sends the 
>symmetric key
>encrypted with the public key of the server.  Thus, we need the forwarder to
>verify the authenticity of the server's public key.
>
>On the way back, the forwarder encrypts the fields with a randomly generated
>symmetric key of its choosing, and sends the symmetric key encrypted with the
>public key of the client.  Thus, we need the forwarder to verify the
>authenticity of the client's public key.
>
>So, to my knowledge, this protocol does not have any threatening covert
>channels.
>
>----------
>
>The multi-hop protocols as described in the Internet Draft are like the
>single-hop protocols, with the important exception that specific fields
>are passed directly between the forwarders.  Here, we have two problems:
>
>A. Since one of the encrypted fields contains more and more information as it
>gets constructed, and never gets decrypted in the construction process, it
>necessarily grows in size.  This in turn means that information about the
>position of a particular forwarder in the path will necessarily be leaked.
>
>B. Since fields are passed directly between the forwarders without alteration,
>they can be correlated by an attacker to find the path through the forwarding
>network.  One possible solution to this is for the forwarders to choose
>randomly-generated symmetric keys at each hop, and then encrypt the relevant
>field with this key, and then send that key along, encrypted with the client's
>or server's public key.  The trouble with this is that the size of the packet
>becomes increasingly large, just as in (A).
>
>To eliminate the problem with linearly growing packets along the pathe need a
>PKI for the network of forwarders so that forwarders can encrypt and 
>decrypt at
>each hop.  This reduces the packets to a constant size (whatever we agree
>upon), and prevents the problems associated by the covert channels 
>described in
>(A) and (B) above.
>
>Geoff
>
>
>
>
>To post: mail to anon at wireless.eecs.harvard.edu
>To unsubscribe: mail anon at wireless.eecs.harvard.edu
>   with "unsubscribe" (no quotes) in the subject line
>To subscribe: mail anon at wireless.eecs.harvard.edu
>   with "subscribe" (no quotes) in the subject line
>To visit archive: go to http://wireless.eecs.harvard.edu/anon
>Comments, suggestions? Send them to
>   postmaster at wireless.eecs.harvard.edu


Franco Travostino, Director Content Internetworking Lab
Advanced Technology Investments
Nortel Networks, Inc.
600 Technology Park
Billerica, MA 01821 USA
Tel: 978 288 7708 Fax: 978 288 4690
email: travos at nortelnetworks.com




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 01:18:07 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:18:07 +1100
Subject: Hey! More BS.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218195707.00a60dd0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Hey, Protestantism gave us the "priesthood of all believers",
and if that's too much work, the ULC will ordain you for $20.
The Internet lets everybody be a journalist, or at least a political 
commentator.
Won't be a problem getting either of those jobs :-)
(However, as many people have discovered with acting or Internet startup,
 >>getting a job in the field is easy, but getting a *paying* job is 
tougher...)

I'm interested in the peyote priesthood.(Im already an entertainment 
journalist) I do want confessional box privileges.(20c?)
Who needs a paying job and why do *you* do *this*? Protwhateverthefuck 
sounds like a real drag Maaaaan.

 >>The Internet lets everybody be a journalist, or at least a political 
commentator.

You do love to smell your own farts ,dont you. Still it lets everybody be 
an assassin or at least a *predictor*.
Thanks bill,thanks a hell of a lot.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Tue Dec 18 20:27:53 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:27:53 -0800
Subject: Jonah Goldberg Has It Ass Backwards
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3C1FA6C9.32587.791EF4C@localhost>


On 18 Dec 2001, at 21:52, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

  It is said 
> that the road to hell is paved with good intentions or as the great 
> American libertarian writer  H.L. Mencken opinioned "Whenever A 
> annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a 
> scoundrel ."  So to Jonah Goldberg, I say go to hell.]
> 
> 

Right.  I started to compose a longer reply, but then I pretty much 
decided that your title says it all.  The guy's a fucking moron,
not worth the electrons.

George 





From faustine at lokmail.net  Tue Dec 18 17:46:52 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:46:52 -0500
Subject: Wired on e-gold
Message-ID: <200112190146.UAA02501@mail.lokmail.net>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 18 18:57:45 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:57:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Fwd: Computer Experts Question National ID Schemes (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:39:06 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Computer Experts Question National ID Schemes

This just in...


>>  Subject: Computer Experts Question National ID Schemes
>>
>>  For Immediate Release: December 17, 2001
>>  For More Information: Susan Evoy, cpsr at cpsr.org,
>>  650-322-3778
>>
>>  COMPUTER EXPERTS QUESTION NATIONAL IDENTIFICATION SCHEMES
>>
>>  Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR),
>>  a twenty year old international association of computer experts,
>>  released an FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) explaining and
>>  critiquing recent proposals to create national identification
>>  schemes (NIDS) in the United States, Canada, and other countries.
>>
>>  CPSR explains that a national identification scheme "could
>>  combine the functions of a driver's license, social security
>>  registration, immigration documents, and other government-
>>  issued identification." Individuals would be entered in a national
>>  data base and issued a "smart" card containing personal
>>  information, including, in some recent proposals, biometric
>>  data such as fingerprints or retina scans.
>>
>>  CPSR president Coralee Whitcomb said, "CPSR doubts that
>>  national identification schemes can provide additional security
>>  against terrorist attacks." She added, "These ideas have been
>>  around for a while, but after September 11 their proponents,
>>  including potential suppliers, who stand to profit handsomely
>>  from massive ID Card programs, used the climate of fear to
>>  dust them off in response to the public's desire for improved
>>  security. National identification schemes instead would endanger
>>  civil liberties, allowing those with access to the data base to track
>>  the behavior, associations, and finances of innocent people."
>>
>>  Moreover, a new identification system could "leave us relying
>>  on the wrong approach to security, and create a false sense of
>>  security that leaves us more vulnerable than before," Whitcomb
>>  said.
>>
>>  CPSR is a public-interest alliance of computer scientists and
>>  others concerned about the impact of computer technology on
>>  society. As technical experts, CPSR members continue to
>>  provide the public and policymakers with realistic assessments
>>  of the power, promise and limitations of computer technology.
>>
>>  CPSR representatives are available for interviews, testimony and
>>  other communications.
>>
>>  Links to resources about National ID Card position statements
>>  and press
>>  coverage, ID Cards for immigrants, Smart Cards, Social
>>  Security Numbers,
>>  Biometrics (Fingerprints,
>>  Retina Scanning, and Face Recognition), and General Security
>>  Principles can be found at
>>  http://www.cpsr.org/program/natlID/natlIDlinks.html
>>
>>  The FAQ is at
>>  http://www.cpsr.org/program/natlID/natlIDfaq.html
>>
>>  > --
>>  Susan Evoy   *   Managing Director
>>  http://www.cpsr.org/
>>  Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
>>  P.O. Box 717  *  Palo Alto  *  CA *  94302
>>  Phone: (650) 322-3778    *
>>  Email: evoy at cpsr.org
>>  Join/Renew online:
>>  https://swww.igc.apc.org/cpsr/sec-membership-form.html


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I've never been a long-term planner about anything.
I have lived my life with more of a short-term focus."

	          -	President George W. Bush  (Texas Monthly, 5-94)







From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Dec 18 20:57:57 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:57:57 -0800
Subject: MS DRM OS Begets SSSCA
In-Reply-To: <3C1F8322.3815.706AA1E@localhost>
References: <3C1FE178.1050701@exmosis.net>
Message-ID: 


SSSCA is far from dead, it may have a good chance
of enactment according to Mike Godwin's essay today,
"Coming Soon: Hollywood Versus the Internet:"

  http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-net-mg.htm

Here are his opening paragraphs:

"If you have a fast computer and a fast connection to the 
Internet, you make Hollywood nervous. And Tinseltown is 
nervous not because of what you're doing now, but because 
of what you *might* do -- grab digital Hollywood content
with your computer and broadcast it over the Internet.

Which is why Hollywood, along with other content companies, 
from book publishers to the music industry, has begun a
campaign to stop you from ever being able to do such a 
thing -- even though you may have no intention of becoming 
a copyright "pirate." That campaign has pitted corporate 
giants like Disney and Fox against corporate giants like 
Microsoft and IBM, but the resulting war over the shape 
of future digital technology may end up with us computer
users suffering the "collateral damage."

As music-software designer and entrepreneur Selene 
Makarios puts it, this campaign represents "little less than 
an attempt to outlaw general-purpose computers."

Let's get one thing straight -- when I say there's war looming 
in cyberspace over copyright, I'm not talking about the 
struggle between copyright holders and copyright "pirates" 
who distribute unlicensed copies of creative works for 
free over the Internet. Maybe you loved Napster or maybe 
you hated it, but the right to start a Napster, or to infringe 
copyright and get away with it, is not what's at issue here. 
And in a sense it's a distraction from what the real war is.

What I'm talking about instead is the war between the content 
industries (call them "the Content Faction") and the 
information-technology industries -- call the latter "the Tech 
Faction." That faction includes not only computer makers, 
software makers, and related digital-device manufacturers 
(think CD burners and MP3 players and Cisco routers). 
Allied with the Content Faction are the consumer-electronics 
makers -- the folks who build your VCRs and DVD players 
and boomboxes. The Tech Faction, which makes smarter, 
more programmabale devices and technologies than the 
consumer-electronics guys do, may count among their allies 
many cable companies and even telephone companies.

But what's the "collateral damage," exactly? Perhaps the 
most likely scenario is this: at some near-future date - perhaps 
as early as 2010 - individuals may no longer be able to do the 
kinds of things they routinely do with their digital tools in 2001. 
They may no longer be able, for example, to move music
or video files around easily from one of their computers to 
another (even if the other is just a few feet away in the same 
house), or to personal digital assistants. Their music 
collections, reduced to MP3s, may be moveable to a limited 
extent; unless their digital hardware doesn't allow it. The 
digital videos they shot in 1999 may be unplayable on their 
desktop and laptop computers -- or even on other devices -- 
in 2009.

And if they're programmers, trying to come up with the next 
great version of the Linux operating system, for example, 
they may find their development efforts put them at risk of 
criminal and civil penalties if the tools they develop are 
inadequately protective of copyright interests. Indeed, their
sons and daughters in grade-school computer classes may 
face similar risks, if the broadest of the changes now being 
proposed becomes law."




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 18 19:14:30 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:14:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:

> But it's free speech, not music, regardless of amplification, so how does
> the ordinance apply?

You have a right to do whatever you want, UNTIL it impacts another. Then
you stop, or they defend themselves.

'public' == other

I'll leave the rest for you to muddle through at your own speed.




 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 18 19:16:13 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:16:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
 
> So from your reply, I'll assume the answer to my "So are you finally
> evolving?" question is still No.

Sorry, you can't imply anything other than what is openly stated in my
commentary. Implicatives will bite you in the butt.

> I, and everyone in the world, is aware that commerce != capitalism,

Not hardly.

> and that you are avoiding the question.

And EXACTLY what question might that be? You ramble so much it gets hard
to follow what you're talking about NOW.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 18 21:18:58 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:18:58 
Subject: CIA in NYC
Message-ID: 


Peter Trei writes:
> > Young[SMTP:jya at pipeline.com]

> > Now whether bin Laden, or whoever planned the attack,
> > knew of this, or suspected it, could enrich the speculation
> > about why the towers were targeted.

>Remember to apply Occam's razor occasionally. The WTC
>towers were one of the best known landmarks around the world, were filled 
>with people, stood well clear of the surrounding buildings, and symbolized 
>the globalization/
>Americanization of the world UBL hates.
>
>The WTC towers were (from UBLs presumed viewpoint)
>about the best US targets he could have picked, simply from
>a PR, ideology, and practicality standpoint. The presence of a CIA office 
>in a neighbouring building was not required to make the WTC towers target 
>#1.

Brings to mind something my 10-year old pointed out to me soon after
9/11.  He likes to play computer war games in the Command and Conquer
/ Red Alert series.  Apparently, when you're playing the bad guys
in one of the games and attacking the US, one of your first
assignments is to wipe out the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Wonder if UBL is getting royalties from the game manufacturer?

- GH


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 02:31:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:31:53 +1100
Subject: Shockwave Rider
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218210814.00a29880@pop.useoz.com>


My tovarich Vulture tells me the 23 kiloton skidoo is in position.The 
camouflage extends to in-situ radiation!
The only thing to catch this polar scud will be runaway global warming.Get 
out of Dodge!
she's also angling for the OBL reward and is flying to Egypt to pace out 
one of the new finds in the valley of the kings.

PS.In case you think she's full of it,scroll some of her *predictions* at 
indymedia.

This type of jabberwockery must surely wipe out the fascist United States 
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. 
The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, 
associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those 
people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place...




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Dec 18 18:52:46 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:52:46 -0500
Subject: Jonah Goldberg Has It Ass Backwards
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  Last Thursday I sent a posting titled 
"Cultural libertarianism the real threat to America?" See: 
 by National Review 
Online Editor Jonah Goldberg where he made the claim that good 
character is fostered by limiting freedom". Goldberg was quick to 
point out however that he personally has "done lots of things in 
[his] life that are "un-conservative." His hypocrisy aside, Goldberg 
again restates his belief on the merits of limiting freedom by 
writing "Without character-forming institutions which softly coerce 
(persuade) kids - and remind adults -...", paradoxically claiming 
that such "coercion" is needed to foster our "open, free, and 
tolerant culture over others."...  Ay caramba!  Here we have what is 
colloquially referred to as compassionate conservatism, the notion 
that government is a loving father and that it's citizens are it's 
children. Goldberg aspires to an ideology that isn't even American, 
an ideology antithetical to liberty, and which is the underlaying 
ideological underpinning of the totalitarian state.  The great 
American author James Fenimore Cooper wrote that "Individuality is 
the aim of political liberty.  By leaving to the citizens as much 
freedom of action and of being as comports with order and the rights 
of others, the institutions render him truly a freeman.  He is left 
to pursue his means of happiness in his own manner."  Goldberg has it 
ass backwards, it is freedom and the respect of the rights of others 
that is inculcated in our institutions not the removal of freedom by 
our institutions that makes American culture superior.  It is said 
that the road to hell is paved with good intentions or as the great 
American libertarian writer  H.L. Mencken opinioned "Whenever A 
annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a 
scoundrel ."  So to Jonah Goldberg, I say go to hell.]





The Libertarian Lie By Jonah Goldberg, NRO editor
Responding to Nick Gillespie and Virginia Postrel.

Jonah Goldberg can be reached at (JonahEmail at aol.com).

December 18, 2001 3:35 p.m.

 

EDITOR'S NOTE: Yesterday I responded to Andrew Sullivan. Today I 
respond to the libertarians, primarily Reason magazine editor Nick 
Gillespie and former Reason editor Virginia Postrel. Virginia, whom I 
consider a friend, has also linked to numerous other sites taking me 
to task. I know that many readers are uninterested by these doctrinal 
squabbles. But others are, and I think they're worthwhile. 
Regardless, I promise this is the last you will hear from me about 
such things for a while. I'll be getting back to meat-and-potatoes 
G-Files starting tomorrow.

Lighten Up, Libertarians

Before we get to the heart of all this, let me address perhaps my 
biggest peeve about libertarians. Trust me, it's relevant. They are, 
without a doubt, the most defensive and thin-skinned group on the 
Right - far more so than Christian conservatives, gay Republicans, 
whoever. Maybe it's because so many of them became libertarians in 
the first place in order to escape criticism of any kind, or maybe 
it's because there's something about libertarianism that excites the 
region of the brain responsible for religious utopianism, or maybe 
it's the accumulated resentment at being in the backseat of the 
right-wing coalition - I don't know. But I am continually amazed by 
how so many libertarians can maintain a tone and posture of reflexive 
defensiveness and moral superiority, simultaneously.

Out of the hundreds of e-mails I got from angry libertarians, a 
sizable majority simply asserted that I didn't understand 
libertarianism. Not that I was wrong in the application of my 
analysis, or that I was being unfair or overly broad - but that I 
simply don't "get" it.

Now, as I conceded yesterday in my response to Andrew Sullivan, last 
Wednesday's column was not surgical in its argumentation, so I'm open 
to some thoughtful criticism on that score. But I get these letters 
anytime I write anything critical of libertarianism. Liberty magazine 
runs regular squibs mocking me for my obtuseness. Harry Browne, the 
2000 Libertarian Party candidate, went out of his way to lecture me - 
on NRO - to explain how I don't get it.

Virginia Postrel suspects that my "anti-libertarian outbursts" stem 
from a desire to get her and other libertarians to link to my site. 
Well, we can put aside the suggestion that it's a web-traffic bonanza 
to get linked on something called "Libertarian Samizdata" (I actually 
lose traffic when I indulge my anti-libertarian bent). But Postrel 
seems to believe my arguments are so silly that they're better 
explained by some sort of cynical ploy. Hell, I've even got my own 
Greek chorus at LewRockwell.com, which can barely go a week without 
singing some tune about how I'm slow on the uptake (or how Abraham 
Lincoln tempted Eve into taking a bite of the apple).

So let me just say once and for all: I'm sorry, but your philosophy 
ain't that complicated. I think I've got a handle on it: The 
government uses force, so we should keep it limited; open society; 
maximize human freedom; respect contracts; free minds, free markets, 
blah blah blah. I get it. Good stuff. Thanks.

In fact, I thought the whole point of libertarianism was that it's 
simple. I mean, whenever I hear libertarians trying to convert 
people, they always make their creed sound so uncomplicated. They 
begin their sentences with, "We libertarians simply believe X"; or, 
"Libertarianism is just a partial philosophy of life." Harry Browne 
says conservatism is worse than libertarianism because it can't give 
you "one sentence" answers on every political issue. In fact, he 
makes libertarianism sound like a warm bath you can slip into to melt 
all your political cares and concerns away.

And that's all fine. Except for the fact that when criticized, all of 
a sudden libertarianism becomes this deeply complex body of thought 
with all sorts of Kantian categories and esoteric giggling about 
"rational fallibility" flying all about (many of my blogger critics 
actually sound like self-parodies). On offense, you guys are like the 
"Drink Me" bottle in Alice in Wonderland, or Morpheus's pill in The 
Matrix. But on defense, you turn on the smoke machines and cloud the 
room up with faculty-lounge verbiage. You can't have it both ways.

And besides, there's nothing particularly wrong with simple 
philosophies - which is why I'm pretty much a libertarian when it 
comes to the federal government. Regardless, please spare me the 
more-sophisticated-than-thou crap. When smart people (and I've always 
said libertarians are very smart) - whether they're Marxists, 
libertarians, whatever - claim that other smart people "just don't 
get" very simple ideas, they only lend credence to the impression 
that their intellectual adherence is the product of a religious 
impulse. Or, they just sound obnoxious.

Gillespie's Pose

Which brings me, inexorably, to Nick Gillespie's response to my 
column last Wednesday, which Virginia Postrel tells us is "the best 
so far (of course)." To his credit, Nick doesn't resort to a fog of 
jargon, merely a typical tone of smirking self-amusement and 
condescension (but who am I to criticize tone?). We do actually agree 
on quite a bit. I've long argued that libertarianism will be the real 
challenger to conservatism, and I've long conceded that I'm - to use 
his word - "anxious" about it. Nick makes this observation sound like 
this is some sort of penetrating analysis of the subtext when in fact 
it's pretty much just the text.

Let's be clear about a few other observations Nick seems eager to 
pass off as penetrating insights. He chuckles, "It's a funny thing, 
but conservatives are never so quick to call Rorschach on one of 
their own: For instance, when it came to light a few years ago that 
George Roche III, the fabled president of conservative Hillsdale 
College, had been carrying on with his unstable and suicidal 
daughter-in-law for years, that twisted scene carried no definitive 
ideological import."

It's an even funnier thing that Nick uses this example - since it was 
National Review, specifically my colleague John Miller, who broke the 
story of George Roche III in the first place. Not only did NR make a 
big deal about Roche, we did it first and more than once - despite a 
long association with Hillsdale College and Mr. Roche. If Gillespie 
cannot find the "definitive ideological import" in National Review's 
integrity in policing the Right, that's his shortcoming, not ours.

But then Nick has, I think, a much harder time "getting" National 
Review than I have understanding Reason. "Nothing exercises National 
Reviewers quite so much as the sense that despite their standing 
athwart history yelling stop, it still keeps on a rollin' without 
them," Gillespie writes. He later adds: "[I]t only makes sense that 
conservatives and libertarians would start to line up on different 
sides of the barricades that surround the battleground of individual 
choice and autonomy."

That's all cute and fine, and I'm sure it plays well in letters to 
subscribers. But it's worth noting that while I am against drug 
legalization, Bill Buckley and the editors of National Review called 
for - and continue to call for - an end to the drug war, and for the 
legalization of drugs, when Reason was little more than an obscure 
pamphlet.

Nick might read a bit deeper into Hayek as well. Like so many other 
libertarians, Nick pulls out Hayek's excellent essay "Why I am Not a 
Conservative" as some sort of grand trump card. I admit this is 
another peeve of mine, but Hayek did not call himself a "libertarian" 
in that essay, as Nick gamely suggests. In fact, he explicitly 
rejected the label, calling it "singularly unattractive." "The more I 
learn about the evolution of ideas," wrote Hayek, "the more I have 
become aware that I am an unrepentant Old Whig - with the stress on 
the 'old.'"

Old Whig just so happens to be the same appellation the founding 
father of conservatism, Edmund Burke, used for himself - as Hayek 
approvingly notes several times.

More important, the conservatives in "Why I Am Not a Conservative" 
aren't even the ones Nick has so many problems with. Hayek was 
referring to the conservatives of the European tradition (de Maistre, 
Coleridge, et al), and he was a great deal more generous even to them 
than the folks at Reason are to the American conservatives of today.

Which is a shame because, as I pointed out in my column last 
Wednesday, Hayek argued that United States was the one place in the 
world where you could call yourself a "conservative" and be a lover 
of liberty - because we want to defend those institutions which 
preserve it. And that's why - despite a lot of propaganda from the 
folks at Reason - most conservatives are closer to classical liberals 
than a lot of Reason-libertarians.

Cultural Libertarians, Again

And that gets us, finally, to the meat of our disagreement. I say 
"cultural libertarians" are people unwilling to draw value judgments 
between various personally defined lifestyle choices, or "personal 
cultures." In response, legions of libertoids cry: "Not fair!" 
"You're talking about 'libertinism,'" say some. "Libertarians are 
just unwilling to use the state to coerce others into subscribing to 
our value judgments," say all.

Again, fine, fine - I get it. But I'm also not talking about most of 
the people who read my column and refer to themselves as 
libertarians. Most of these folks are fairly conservative people; 
they want a smaller government, and, hey, so do I. That's why I put 
the word "cultural" in front of the phrase in the first place. I'm 
beginning to think we should simply call such people " anti-state 
conservatives" and let the Reason types have the "singularly 
unattractive" label of "libertarian" all to themselves.

The people I am talking about are people like Nick Gillespie and the 
chirping sectaries on these various blog sites. These people quite 
proudly proclaim that maximizing individual liberty, and minimizing 
coercion by the state or the culture, is their mission. It's shouted 
from the rooftops in just about every issue of Reason. In fact, it's 
odd that Virginia cites Nick's rejoinder as the best so far - for a 
number of reasons, among them that he more or less concedes the 
lion's share of my argument. Nick concedes that he wants to maximize 
the "right to exit from systems that serve them poorly."

Porn Versus Christianity

Take this porn thing. Virginia is fighting mad at me for writing that 
she won't draw distinctions between pornography sales and 
Christian-bookstore sales. But she admits that she has no opinion on 
the issue, and concedes that many of my libertarian critics think 
Christianity, even in a liberal order, is a "bad thing." Meanwhile 
she also raves about this fellow Will Wilkinson who, according to 
Virginia, "makes the good (and obvious but not to Jonah) point that 
'If you ask whether porn or Christian books are better, you have to 
ask "better in what respect?"'" "Goldberg owes us moral arguments 
against pornŠ if he wants to be taken seriously."

Touché, I suppose. But doesn't this make my point? Cultural 
libertarians are uncomfortable with, and quite defensive about, 
drawing distinctions between such bedrock components of Western 
civilization - in this case a little thing called "Christianity" - 
and the latest installment of On Golden Blonde. According to these 
guys, the burden is on me to explain why and how porn is worse than 
Christianity. I'd be glad to do it sometime (though I'm hardly an 
anti-porn zealot); it doesn't sound too tough.

Meanwhile, let's stay on track. Cultural libertarians, as Nick 
readily concedes, don't "blindly respect 'established authority' the 
way conservatives tend to." The "blindly" is, of course, a cheap 
shot, but we'll let it go. That's my point. We're not talking about 
the state here; we're talking about the culture - the thousands of 
ingredients which, in various amounts, combine to form the recipe for 
Western civilization generally and American culture specifically.

Virginia even faults me for not making the positive case for Western 
civilization in the same column - which, aside from being a fairly 
high standard for any argument, also seems to underscore the point 
that these folks don't see its superiority as a given. To the 
cultural libertarian, all authoritative cultural norms should be 
scrutinized again and again.

But just to be clear, some of the ingredients for Western 
civilization I have in mind are such categories as Christianity and 
religion in general, sexual norms, individualism, patriotism, the 
Canon, community standards of conduct, democracy, the rule of law, 
fairness, modesty, self-denial, and the patriarchy. Obviously, all 
cultures have these things (or their equivalent). But it is the 
combination of ingredients - and their relative potency toward one 
another - that make the recipe for Western civilization unique.

The Libertarian Dodge

It's also obvious that - just like conservatives, liberals, and the 
unaligned - cultural libertarians like some of these things a great 
deal, and some only a little, and others not at all. We all have our 
own suggestions for how we should improve the culture. But when 
criticized on their cultural priorities, they get all defensive and 
claim they aren't making a subjective cultural argument. "We're just 
neutral. We just want the state out of things." But then they go 
right along mocking the cultural choices of conservatives, and of 
anyone who respects the established cultural authority more than they 
do. Nick makes it sound like it's a concession to allow cultural 
conservatives to make their arguments at all, though I doubt he would 
be so grudging about allowing a polygamist make his arguments.

Because I won't brag about my past experiences with drugs or 
extrapolate from those experiences a pro-drug stance, Nick 
grandiosely says that my hypocrisy is "the vice virtue pays to 
tyranny" (taking, in effect, the position that current or former 
gluttons should always proclaim that gluttony is good for everybody). 
Well, if hypocrisy is such a crime, what about the persistent 
hypocrisy of those libertarians who say that they are "neutral" on 
cultural questions while they constantly make undeniably cultural 
arguments?

Nick is on record denouncing America as a "grotesquely prohibitionist 
society" when it comes to drugs, and he's nigh upon orgiastic about 
the spread of pornography. If the anti-state conservatives who prefer 
the label "libertarian" want to tell me that the editor of Reason is 
unrepresentative of libertarianism, fine. But maybe you should 
consider the possibility that it's you who are unrepresentative of 
libertarianism.

Look, the libertarian critique of the state is useful, valuable, 
important, and much needed. But, in my humble opinion, the 
libertarian critique of the culture - "established authority" - tends 
to be exactly what I've always said it was: a celebration of personal 
liberty over everything else, and in many (but certainly not all) 
respects indistinguishable from the more asinine prattle we hear from 
the Left. (The great compromise between libertarians and 
conservatives is, of course, federalism see " Among the Gender 
Benders").

Personal liberty is vitally important. But it isn't everything. If 
you emphasize personal liberty over all else, you undermine the 
development of character and citizenship - a point Hayek certainly 
understood.

Kids are born barbarians, as Hannah Arendt noted. Without 
character-forming institutions which softly coerce (persuade) kids - 
and remind adults - to revere our open, free, and tolerant culture 
over others, we run the risk of having them embrace any old creed or 
ideology that they find most rewarding or exciting, including some 
value systems which take it on blind faith that America is evil and, 
say, Cuba or Osama bin Laden is wonderful. That's precisely why 
campuses today are infested with so many silly radicals, and why 
libertarians in their own way encourage the dismantling of the 
soapboxes they stand on. For cultural libertarians this is all 
glorious, or at least worth the risks. I just wish more libertarians 
had the guts to admit it. I disagree. I also wish some of them had 
the guts to admit it.

###
__________________________________________________________________________
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receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.
---

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From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Dec 18 22:01:11 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:01:11 -0800
Subject: MS DRM OS Begets SSSCA
In-Reply-To: <3C1F9142.32578.73DD7D2@localhost>
References: 
  <3C1F8322.3815.706AA1E@localhost>
Message-ID: 


I think Mike is trying to describe the worst case scenario to
arouse opposition. Bear in mind that the Content Faction
(and maybe the Tech Faction) want to control the world,
not just the US. All countries are targets for SSSCA and
DMCA through copyright treaties and other control
regimes.

Just a few days ago the last country needed to enforce
the WIPO Copyright Treaty signed on. WIPO is the global
version of DMCA. And the Hague Convention is meeting
shortly to set up the legal framework to enforce the
various global treaties on protecting intellectual property.

Sure, there will continue to be gray and black markets
in software but criminalization of circumvention devices
will put some youngsters (and oldsters) in jail, as we see 
looming from the recent warez raids.

I'm optimistic that Mike is too pessimistic but he knows
how to arouse by avoiding rosy ending scripts. The MPAA
and co-conspirators are dirty fighters and nobody should
expect to merely ignore them, thinking that loosening of
crypto controls is a model. They know that precedent and
are determined to do what governments could not.

Question is, as ever, what about the programmers within
the factions who are needed to carry out the wishes of the
bosses. In this, crypto could be a bellweather, for showing
how the technicians learned to outwit the others. But are
technical folks more susceptible these days to bribery
of swell life styles than the crypto-rebels were? Or better,
are there well-endowed, smarter than most, Factioners 
who do not want to be part of hegemonic putridity?


We'll see what the Factions offer the liberators to keep
them hard at work, happy to be protected intellectual property
slaves. None of whom would waste a second here
except to pick up intelligence for blowing upholes.




From g15949 at newmail.ru  Tue Dec 18 19:05:19 2001
From: g15949 at newmail.ru (g15949 at newmail.ru)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:05:19 -0500
Subject: BE SUCCESSFUL IN FINDING COLLEGE AID!!!
Message-ID: <00005ef74bb9$00001341$00005884@male.ru>

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From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Tue Dec 18 19:14:05 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:15:05 -0459
Subject: Great Deals on New and Used Phones!!
Message-ID: <200112182327109.SM01044@carlo>

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From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 18 20:29:53 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:29:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: <012b01c1883e$88798620$fd98fea9@josephas>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Joseph Ashwood wrote:

> Actually that's not true. Take for example the nearly nationwide ban on
> committing suicide.

There is a difference between stating the basic principle and stating that
the principle is acted upon. Were the principle acted upon we wouldn't be
having these discussions in the first place.

We ALMOST ALL agree that the principles are not being followed. That in no
way detracts from the principles (eg very few follow the CACL philosophy
therefore it must not be 'true').


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 18 20:40:31 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:40:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Test
Message-ID: 



1, 2, 3

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From bxain at redneck.gacracker.org  Tue Dec 18 15:21:13 2001
From: bxain at redneck.gacracker.org (Ben Xain)
Date: 18 Dec 2001 23:21:13 -0000
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011218232113.16198.qmail@gacracker.org>


On 18 December 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim  wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
> > Can't spam be repelled by not forwarding email not encrypted to
> > the remailer's key?
> 
> Who is to say that spammers won't use remailer clients that automatically
> encrypt to the remailers' keys?
> 
> Using remailer clients should be *easy*. Saying "this is too hard for the
> average spammer to figure out" isn't acceptable.

In fact, spammers currently *do* send mail encrypted to the remailers'
keys.  It's a pain in the ass trying to filter the damn stuff out.

Ben Xain
bxain at redneck.gacracker.org




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Dec 18 23:47:08 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:47:08 -0800
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011218101202.007fb550@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <9A7EF80A-F454-11D5-A2B6-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 10:12 AM, David Honig wrote:

> At 07:35 PM 12/17/01 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> "ATM" is "Adobe Type Manager".  Linotype is a big font house.
>> Intellectual Property laws for fonts are normally even stranger than 
>> for
>> regular material,
>> but if any of these are in Postscript, they're also programs,
>> so there may be DMCA issues, and there's obviously some contractual
>> relationship with Adobe that lets them copyright implementations.
>
> IIRC fonts are not copyrightable in the US, but are elsewhere, yes?

	The shape of the glyphs is not copyrightable, but the application 
of a specific name to that set of glyphs is.

	You can copy *exactly* the shape of a font, and just call it 
something else. Helvetica->Arial/Geneva/Swiss (actually *slightly* 
different, but that was more an artifact of the original technology for 
them, Arial is TT, Geneva was a bitmapped font from Way Back on the Mac 
etc.)  Times->New York on the mac (as Helvetica is to Geneva, so Times 
is to New York, IIRC).

	Oh, but don't do it by just renaming the postscript, that's 
copyright infringement on the *code*, as is (probably) using some sort 
of Postscript->TT conversion that renames as it goes.

> Assuming that's correct, then an algorithmic font (eg Postscript) could 
> be
> turned into an albeit large static set of pixels which wouldn't be
> copyrightable in the US.

	That would be utterly pointless (no pun intended). The value of 
Postscript is that it *isn't* a set of pixels.
--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From nobody at paranoici.org  Tue Dec 18 14:56:27 2001
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:56:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CIA in NYC
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> I used to work at 101 Barclay Street, across the street from
> WTC #7. I watched it going up from my office window. I hated
> the building - it blocked my view south.

Hate is a strong word. Be careful, Peter; John will think you had 
something to do with the business of it falling down.




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Dec 18 21:01:22 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:01:22 -0500
Subject: Libertarian Party considered harmful
In-Reply-To: <6F75D3C5-F435-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <6F75D3C5-F435-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


At 8:04 PM -0800 12/18/01, Tim May wrote:
>(If it matters to anyone, I voted for John Hospers in 1972 and I 
>debated the Nolan Chart wth that very guy. Lots of libertoonians 
>here in California. I met David Friedman in 1974. I tend to call 
>myself a libertarian, when I'm not calling myself an 
>anarcho-capitalist, but the Libertarian Party qua Party is utterly 
>irrelevant and boring. Lots of nerdy clerks nattering about natural 
>rights and quoting Rothbard. Gag!)

I can always count on you living in the past- Please not another 
rendition of back in the good ole' days of cypherpunks... But who's 
saying the LP isn't irrelevant and boring?  And what does the current 
National Review vs Reason Magazine squabble have to do with them?

Regards,   Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
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**************************************************************************




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 05:02:00 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:02:00 +1100
Subject: US Govt Repression of proffr."Possible threat to US security."
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218235828.00a26e20@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.uwm.edu/~davida/

US GOVT SUPRESSES COMPUTER SECURITY INVENTION-"Threat to US security."

Milwaukee-george Davida,proffr at the university of wisconsin at 
Milwaulkee,faces 2 years in
prison and a 10,000$ fine if he discloses the results of his independent 
invention a computer
security device.According to the US Commerce Dept,Davidas invention could 
become a threat to
US security.
According to the university's assistant chancellor,frank Cassell,Davida 
devaloped "a very simple
machine that solves a big problem,the security of computers,keeping 
unauthorized persons from
getting into records.
"The whole thing is shocking,"said Cassell,of the Govts intervention."It 
could mean that every
proffr will live in fear of his research being repressed if someone in the 
federal govt see's
fit to do so.
              Related Links
Information Security Journal
Financial Cryptography '01
Information Security Conference'01

Research Interests
Cryptography and Data Security
Biometrics Identification




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec 19 00:21:41 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:21:41 -0800
Subject: Steal This Essay 1: Content Is a Pure Public Good
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011219000402.04a29ea0@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <6E6CB764-F459-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>


This guy's essay is really good. And it only took him a few minutes!



> Originally published in TimBITS#602/22-Oct-01; see 
>  for more information.
>
> Steal This Essay 1: Content Is a Pure Public Good
> by Tim May
>
> Steal this essay, or, why these sorts of essays represent the future of 
> all publishing. Hint: I'm not getting paid for them.
>
> "Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one." - A.J. Liebling
>
> If you or anyone you know has ever or will ever produce content 
> (writing, music, video, etc.) and hopes to get paid for it, you should 
> be afraid.
>
> To see why, start by downloading (for free, of course) one of the 
> numerous peer-to-peer file sharing systems such as Aimster, LimeWire, 
> and eDonkey2000 that have emerged hydra-like to take the place of 
> Napster, whose head was cut off
.....



--Tim May
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any 
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to 
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient 
warrant." --John Stuart Mill




From happyholidays at yourinkjet.com  Tue Dec 18 22:23:33 2001
From: happyholidays at yourinkjet.com (happyholidays at yourinkjet.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:23:33 -0600
Subject: Like Holiday Specials? Free Shipping & LOW Sale Prices is our gift to YOU!!!
Message-ID: <200112190623.fBJ6NXCO018848@ak47.algebra.com>

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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Tue Dec 18 14:27:14 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:27:14 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Encrypted Distributed Filesystem With Linux?
Message-ID: 

With over > 2GB in size and on 2.4 Linux kernels?

Say, an 80gb filesystem image that is encrypted with XXX over
a loop device YYY to a filesystem image that resides on ZZZ.

Is there any way to do this or something similar to it?

I browsed the net but PPDD + CODA doesn't quite seem to get me there.
Neither does SFS or CFS or TCFS or any of the other alternatives I found.

The freenet clones seem all too insecure and freenet is 
just a piece of java code. Not suitable for any *real* use.

All links and suggestions are very welcome..




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Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From scribe at exmosis.net  Tue Dec 18 16:38:16 2001
From: scribe at exmosis.net (Graham Lally)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:38:16 +0000
Subject: MS DRM OS
References: <3C1E082F.F8D15DA6@lsil.com>
  <20011219095606.B2694@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C1FE178.1050701@exmosis.net>


Ralph Wallis wrote:

> On Monday, 17 Dec 2001 at 07:58, Michael Motyka  wrote:
> 
>>Could someone who knows more than I do explain to me why this MS "IP" is
>>anything other than making the owner of a PC unable to have root access
>>to their own hardware/OS? If so it seems to be an idea unworthy of
>>protection from lawyers and men with guns.
>>
> 
> A more correct analogy is with speed limiters on cars.


On your own roads. And the car maker tells you where you can go to. And 
which route you have to take. And where you can end up. And then forces 
you to pay for a map.


If the patent hasn't been picked up by the courts yet, then why not? 
*If* the SSSCA were to come into effect (and I have heard little about 
it for several months now... biding its time?), then surely all other 
OSes (subject to legal boundaries) would be prevented by the patent from 
implementing the requirements in the bill?

...and to appease the pedanty, it's hard to have a /more/ correct 
analogy when there was no analogy in the first place. There, got it out 
of my system...

.g

-- 
"Sometimes I use google instead of pants."




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Tue Dec 18 22:21:14 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:21:14 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
References: <3.0.6.32.20011218162248.0080f1e0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3C2031DA.485BE2B1@acmenet.net>


David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 02:42 PM 12/18/01 -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> >On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
> >
> >> Can't spam be repelled by not forwarding email not encrypted to
> >> the remailer's key?
> >
> >Who is to say that spammers won't use remailer clients that automatically
> >encrypt to the remailers' keys?
> 
> Yes they could.
> 
> >
> >Using remailer clients should be *easy*. Saying "this is too hard for the
> >average spammer to figure out" isn't acceptable.
> 
> The most commonly held point of view that I've
> perceived on this list is that spammers are too lazy/stupid
> to do this -or even add a simple string token to a line.

To maximize their efficiency *, spammers want to send the same message
to everyone on a large list of addresses, with a small amount of effort
and attention on their part. Any special effort necessary to get the
spam to a given address is not a worthwhile ROI. (And it's probably not
worth the effort to remove the address from the list, either.) This is
also the point behind the hashcash proposal: the sender's machine has to
burn a certain number of cycles to make a hash which will convince the
recipient to accept each message. **

* Efficiency is the useful output divided by the effort input.
"Efficiency" for a useless endeavor such as spamming is problematical.

** Eric, if you're reading this, I really am putting some work in on
this, just not at a high enough rate to produce any output. Efficiency
of 0.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel




From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Dec 18 16:30:21 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:30:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Wired on e-gold
Message-ID: <76fd45e6e79799c888fe92def4dc1d8a@dizum.com>


The January, 2002 issue of Wired has an article on e-gold, the online
payment system founded by retired oncologist Douglas Jackson.

Much of the article discusses e-gold's misguided effort to link
up with Islamic fundamentalists who want to overthrow capitalism.
They are setting up a spinoff, e-dinar, for use in the Muslim world.
This brilliant marketing tactic is not going too well even by the
modest standards of what passes for success around the e-gold offices,
especially since 9/11.

Of course the cypherpunk interest in e-gold revolves around its vaunted
privacy protection.  The article provides a much-needed dose of reality to
those who still harbor fantasies that e-gold is interested in protecting
the privacy of its customers.  Those who participated in the fractious
debates between e-gold founders and its customers in the early days
will remember the company's sniff of dismissal at "elite ivovy-tower"
arguments in favor of its privacy.  Alaskan attorney Daniel J. Boone in
particular made a number of principled appeals to e-gold officials to
hold to their early promises of privacy protection, to no avail.

Here is what the article has to say about the use of e-gold by pyramid
schemes (euphemistically caled HYIPs, high-yield investment programs):

> For his part, Jackson vigorously denies HYIPs account for anything
> approaching a substantial portion of e-gold traffic.  "These are
> piddly-ass little things," he says.  "When you actually run one of
> these things down, they're pathetic."  Still, he concedes, they're a PR
> liability, and he and his staff have been working hard to squeeze them
> out of the system.  They've instituted "know your customer" rules to
> identify suspected swindlers, and they've cooperated amicably with law
> enforcement.  When SEC staffers came to G&SR's offices last May to review
> the accounts of one of the biggest e-gold schemes ever - the self-styled
> "Christian-based humanitarian organization" E-Biz Ventures, shut down
> after allegedly inflicting losses of $8.5 million on investors - they
> were welcomed with coffee, bagels, and a conference room of their own.
> J. Chris Condren, the attorney charged with recovering E-Biz investors'
> money, has only good things to say about e-gold.  "They've answered
> every question we've asked them, they've responded to every subpoena,
> every request for information."

Jackson is lying about the unimportance of HYIPs.  Independent e-gold
vendors estimate 30, 50 or as much as 90 percent of e-gold transactions
go into pyramid scams, and the largest single holding in the system
belongs to a shut-down Ponzi.  But more importantly, we can plainly
see the company's anti-privacy policies in action.  Any business has a
basic philosophy, implicit or explicit, and their actions reflect and
reveal that philosophy.  Jackson and e-gold only pay lip service to the
goals of financial privacy.  Their actions reveal their true feelings:
that privacy just gets in the way of business success.

It seems hard to believe that a currency which aims to attract
libertarians and "gold bugs" would put customer privacy at such a
low priority.  And no doubt these policies account in part for the slow
growth rate of the currency compared to successful ventures like PayPal.
Nevertheless this should be a cautionary tale for any payment system
which purports to offer privacy as a selling point.

Criminals love privacy, they love anonymity.  Remailer operators soon find
that a substantial majority of the messages they send contain nothing
but harrassment and threats.  Few customers use anonymity services
for positive purposes, to protect their privacy while engaging in
legitimate activities.  With most people, if they have nothing to hide,
they don't hide it.  Only paranoids and extremists will adopt anonymity
technologies without nefarious purposes in mind.  Anyone proposing to
offer new services for privacy and anonymity should be prepared to deal
with the onslaught of criminals who will use the system for bad ends.




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Dec 18 22:34:18 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:34:18 -0500
Subject: Apologist for the Police State: Goldberg On Ashcroft
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  US Attorney General John Ashcroft said 
"to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost 
liberty; my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists - for 
they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give 
ammunition to America's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They 
encourage people of good will to remain silent in the face of evil.". 
Lost liberty is exactly the term a rational patriotic American would 
use to describe the intrusive power grab that is occurring in 
America.  National Review Online Editor Jonah Goldberg asks liberals 
to stop comparing Ashcroft to McCarthy.  A better exercise would be 
to start comparing police state apologist Jonah Goldberg and John 
Ashcroft to totalitarians 
.  For the full 
text of Ashcroft's statement go to 
.]

Jonah Goldberg can be reached at (JonahEmail at aol.com).




townhall.com

Jonah Goldberg

December 19, 2001

Liberals: Stop comparing Ashcroft to McCarthy

Like everyone else, I'd moved on from the public debates over 
military tribunals, racial profiling, detentions, etc. But, 
unfortunately, like crabgrass that feeds on inattention, a liberal 
canard has been growing wildly in the absence of public debate.

That's the trouble with liberal canards. You have to pull them out by 
the roots when they're young, otherwise they spread all over, 
crowding out everything else until they become accepted as actual 
facts.

The canard I'm talking about is this idea that Attorney General John 
Ashcroft is some sort of McCarthyite. Recall, if you will, a few 
weeks ago the Senate Judiciary Committee invited the attorney general 
to explain himself.

[...]

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
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**************************************************************************




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 05:19:17 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:19:17 -0500 (est)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
>  
> > So from your reply, I'll assume the answer to my "So are you finally
> > evolving?" question is still No.
> 
> Sorry, you can't imply anything other than what is openly stated in my
> commentary. Implicatives will bite you in the butt.

I'll take that to still mean "No" :)
 
> > I, and everyone in the world, is aware that commerce != capitalism,
> 
> Not hardly.

To whom does "Not hardly" refer to exactly?  Care to point the individual
names of those who are not aware that commerce != capitalism so that we
can both ask them?
 
> > and that you are avoiding the question.
> 
> And EXACTLY what question might that be? You ramble so much it gets hard
> to follow what you're talking about NOW.

Deja Vue.  Now if you'd only see yourself through that lens.

The question I asked you was in this quote:

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Oh, you mean like the parable of the ants and the grasshopper? Where the
> ants get the results of the work they put into it, and the grasshopper
> who didn't do any work starves and freezes in the winter?
>
> So now you're saying that the very thing you've had a problem in the
> past with because it's capitalism is now a good thing.


Which was in response to this message:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> Don't confuse having a high standard of excellence with simple egotism
> (which is the majority of the cases with both your examples).
>
> And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
> not what somebody else thinks it's worth.


Since capitalism is a meritocracy (Those who work eat;  Those who don't
starve) and you've stated that meritocracies are good, are you at long
last saying that capitalism is a good thing?


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------







From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 05:20:42 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:20:42 -0500 (est)
Subject: AP Al quim, Tim May Torn asunder.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219160551.00a77ca0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


That question was not posed to you.  Unless you are Jim Bell, fuck off.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> Sunder>>...you have to agree that you also have no problem with capitalism.




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 05:26:12 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:26:12 -0500 (est)
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: <20011212104351.B21310@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



Sigh... I wonder if there is anything inChoate doesn't misunderstand....  
We may never know...

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Choate misunderstands journalism. When writing about an appeals court 





From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Dec 19 08:29:48 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:29:48 -0800
Subject: MS DRM OS
In-Reply-To: <3C1FE178.1050701@exmosis.net>
References: <3C1E082F.F8D15DA6@lsil.com>
  <20011219095606.B2694@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011219082948.0080ce00@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:38 AM 12/19/01 +0000, Graham Lally wrote:
>Ralph Wallis wrote:
>
>> On Monday, 17 Dec 2001 at 07:58, Michael Motyka  wrote:
>> 
>>>Could someone who knows more than I do explain to me why this MS "IP" is
>>>anything other than making the owner of a PC unable to have root access
>>>to their own hardware/OS? If so it seems to be an idea unworthy of
>>>protection from lawyers and men with guns.
>>>
>> 
>> A more correct analogy is with speed limiters on cars.
>
>
>On your own roads. And the car maker tells you where you can go to. And 
>which route you have to take. And where you can end up. And then forces 
>you to pay for a map.
>

And tells you which brand of gasoline you can burn under penalty of
law for using others.

And treats go-carts as circumvention devices.




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 05:30:32 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:30:32 -0500 (est)
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Ok, show of hands....

Who here claims to be a member of CACL?

Ok, of those who claim to be members of CACL's, who claims to be a
self-appointed CACL genius?

Tim?  Declan?  Anyone?

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Gil Hamilton wrote:
> 
> > It's interesting to note how much more pleasant Choate was in his
> > early days on the list.  In those days, he was not so intent on
> > showing everyone that he was an authority on all possible subjects.
> 
> That was before I knew what kind of sharks swim in this pool. You don't
> like my interaction then change yours. I treat you people the way you
> treated me back then. I didn't start it. Go talk to Tim, Delcan, and the
> rest of the self-appointed CACL geniuses.
> 
> You reap what you sow.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Dec 19 08:40:08 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:40:08 -0800
Subject: Reg - Linotype copyright action on Adobe-format fonts
In-Reply-To: <9A7EF80A-F454-11D5-A2B6-00306577F12E@bounty.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011218101202.007fb550@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011219084008.0080dae0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:47 PM 12/18/01 -0800, Petro wrote:
>	That would be utterly pointless (no pun intended). The value of 
>Postscript is that it *isn't* a set of pixels.

No, it wouldn't be pointless.  Postscript is not the only way
to print.

It is the equivalent of using a function that approximates the sine()
function to generate a table of trig values.  The function's code
is copyrighted, but the table of values isn't.  And yes, there
are still uses for tables of trig values.




From mv at cdc.gov  Wed Dec 19 08:50:14 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:50:14 -0800
Subject: IRS Agent Goes Berserk, Cops refuse to prosecute, and AP
  candidates
Message-ID: <3C20C545.41A603B8@cdc.gov>


At 01:17 PM 12/19/01 +0200, Jei wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:25:41 -0800
>From: Deon Masker 
>To: ddDeon 
>Subject: [Conspiracy-Theory] Fw: [Renegades_Coalition] IRS Agent Goes
Berserk,
>     Assaults Citizen, by Pat Shannan
>

You know, historically, when there is no reliable justice system,
society gets blood feuds,
etc.   When the justice system is unreliable for sheeple but reliable
for a special class,
maybe AP *does* have a future.  Meanwhile the traditional bag of cash &
friend of a friend
will have to do.




From mischief at optushome.com.au  Tue Dec 18 14:44:06 2001
From: mischief at optushome.com.au (Ralph Wallis)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:44:06 +1100
Subject: MY APPOLOGIES TO ALL CYPHERPUNKS - WAS Re: Returned mail:
In-Reply-To: ; from baptista@pccf.net on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 11:11:18AM -0500
References: <20011218075337.A31476@slack.lne.com> 
Message-ID: <20011219094406.A2694@localhost>


procmail samples add 'X-Loop' or a similar header
so that you don't respond to a double bounce. Choate's
sample CDR recipe does something similar. You should
add something like that.

There is also some incompatibility between the nodes
that causes some bounces to go out to the lists.

On Tuesday, 18 Dec 2001 at 11:11, !Dr. Joe Baptista  wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Eric Murray wrote:
> > Either way, you shouldnt set up an autobounce that can reply to a list.
> > Please fix it so it won't do that.
> 
> had a look at it - the autoresponder was sending to the list owner at
> minder - not the actual list.
> 
> normally it's a very well behaved autoresponder and only responds once to
> a new email address - ignores lists.  But It was sending the list owner a
> new reponse each time the spam was recived.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Dec 19 08:50:52 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:50:52 -0700
Subject: Digital Angel gets under the skin after all
Message-ID: <3C20C56B.B06746AA@lsil.com>


"Roy M. Silvernail"  wrote :
>
>http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-121901chips.story
>
>Applied Digital Solutions is pursuing the implantable chip after all.
>It's not the GPS-trackable unit yet, but more like the doggie chips.
>The L.A. Times story says it holds "up to 60 words" in one place,
>and "several sentences of information" in another.
>
>Interesting that they plan to be to market in South America in 90
>days (because of fewer required regulatory permissions).  They say
>they expect FDA and FCC approval here by midyear.
>
>Anyone want to get barcoded?
>
No thanks. In defenerence to historical precendent I would prefer a
tatoo on my forearm. I would tolerate an updated version that consisted
of 10 hex digits - in deference to the modern computer re-evolution.

They're warming the ovens...

>--
>Roy M. Silvernail
>
Mike





From mischief at optushome.com.au  Tue Dec 18 14:56:06 2001
From: mischief at optushome.com.au (Ralph Wallis)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:56:06 +1100
Subject: MS DRM OS
In-Reply-To: <3C1E082F.F8D15DA6@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 07:58:55AM -0700
References: <3C1E082F.F8D15DA6@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <20011219095606.B2694@localhost>


On Monday, 17 Dec 2001 at 07:58, Michael Motyka  wrote:
> Could someone who knows more than I do explain to me why this MS "IP" is
> anything other than making the owner of a PC unable to have root access
> to their own hardware/OS? If so it seems to be an idea unworthy of
> protection from lawyers and men with guns.

A more correct analogy is with speed limiters on cars.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Wed Dec 19 10:22:43 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:22:43 -0800
Subject: Academic freedom dead in Fla
Message-ID: <3C20DAF3.8C85D4EB@sarin.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011219/ts/attacks_professor_1.html

Wednesday December 19 12:19 PM ET

        South Fla. Professor May Be Fired

        By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer

        TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - University of South Florida's trustees agreed
Wednesday a
        Palestinian professor linked to known terrorists should be fired
for disrupting
        university operations.

        Sami al-Arian, a tenured computer science professor at the
public university, has
        been the subject of continuous death threats because of his
support for anti-Israeli
        interests. Al-Arian's appearance on a national television talk
show after the Sept. 11
        attacks prompted a stream of threats against him and the
university.

        Al-Arian has been on paid leave as a security risk since, but in
recent weeks his
        continued employment has prompted alumni and university donors
to withdraw their
        support, university President Judy Genshaft said.

        Genshaft has the power to dismiss Al-Arian and has advocated the
move, but she
        sought guidance from the trustees before proceeding. The next
step would be a letter
        of notice of the pending dismissal that would give him 10 days
to respond.

        Al-Arian, who has been at the school since 1986, was not
immediately available for
        comment, according to staffers at an Islamic school and
community center that he
        runs.

        The recommendation prompted concern that academic freedom was
being
        threatened and Al-Arian was being fired because of his unpopular
views.

        Al-Arian once headed an academic think tank on Islamic issues,
World and Islam
        Studies Enterprises, later connected to fund raising for the
Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
        His brother-in-law, Mazen al-Najjar was jailed for three years
on secret evidence as
        a threat to national security.

        The think tank was raided by the FBI (news - web sites) in 1995
and its assets were
        frozen. Another former head of the think tank, Ramadan Abdulah
Shallah, left it in
        1995 and resurfaced as the head of a terrorist organization, the
Palestinian Islamic
        Jihad.

        Al-Arian has never been detained or charged with a crime, but
the institute and a
        related charity for Palestinians had been accused by the FBI and
Immigration and
        Naturalization Service agents of being a fund-raising front for
terrorists.

        He was videotaped at some of the institute conferences a decade
ago rallying the
        crowd with shouts of ``death to Israel.'' He now says he was
making a political
        statement regarding the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and
what he considers
        Israeli oppression, not advocating deaths of people.

        Al-Arian appeared on a Sept. 26 segment of Fox News Channel's
``The O'Reilly
        Factor'' and was questioned about his links to known terrorists
as the television
        screen displayed the university's logo. A barrage of threats by
telephone and e-mail
        the next day forced university police to shut down the computer
science department
        where Al-Arian worked, a day later he was banned from campus.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 15:54:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:54:11 +1100
Subject: CIA in NYC
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219104937.00a310a0@pop.useoz.com>


BACKGROUND.LONGISH.The Best Enemies Money Can Buy
by Michael C. Ruppert 3:25am Wed Dec 19 '01

 From Hitler To Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden  Insider Connections and 
the Bush Familys Partnership with Killers of Americans
The article is very well researched and highly recommended, although a 
little too long in my opinion. I've read the book referred to in the 
article below, George Bush, The Unauthorized Biography by Webster G. 
Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin, and recommend it for anybody who wants to know 
the truth about George Bush senior.

Please read my published article about the cancer indu$try
"The Cancer Racket"
Thank you and merry Christmas. Gavin Phillips.

The Best Enemies Money Can Buy

 From Hitler To Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden  Insider Connections and 
the Bush Familys Partnership with Killers of Americans

Brown Brothers, Harriman - BNL- and the Carlyle Group

By

Michael C. Ruppert
Click Here

[) Copyright 2001. All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The 
Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. May be reprinted or distributed 
for non-profit purposes only.]

FTW, Oct. 9, 2001 - Since the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center 
and the Pentagon, major media powerhouses and the increasingly influential 
alternative media alike have begun to focus attention on Bush family 
connections and a long history of arming and financing Americas attackers 
in the months and years prior to the outbreak of war. Recent stories in the 
Wall Street Journal (Sept. 27 & 28, 2001), ABC News (Oct. 1, 2001), as well 
as a host of reports from so-called alternative news sources have begun to 
focus attention on the Bush familys proffr-making role in creating and 
arming our enemies.

The following is a more comprehensive look at the documented history of 
these relationships that will also open some new avenues of inquiry for the 
press, Congress and the American people.

In a world now filled with biowarfare agents, backpack nuclear devices, and 
chemical weapons like Sarin gas -- where there are people in many countries 
with reasons to oppose the United States -- the Bush Administration is 
following predictable strategies in a way that redefines the concept of 
brinksmanship. Human survival may depend upon the will and the ability of 
both the Congress and the press to focus on these relationships and to take 
appropriate action. Moreover  and I am not the first to say this  if a 
national security priority is to seize the financial assets of those who 
support terrorists, then perhaps we should start right here at home.

--- Adolph Hitler Meticulous research, including U.S. government records 
from the era, along with contemporaneous news stories from the New York 
Times and other papers is presented in the 1992 book entitled, George 
Bush, The Unauthorized Biography by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin, 
Published by The Executive Intelligence Review and located at 
http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm. The following is sourced entirely from 
Chapter II of this essential work. [Note: Although FTW does not always 
agree with conclusions reached by the Executive Intelligence Review, or its 
founder Lyndon La Rouche, we have never found a single flaw in any of their 
factual research. History is history, no matter who presents it. And this 
history is essential to understanding our era.]

George W. Bushs grandfather, Prescott Bush, was the Managing Director of 
the investment bank Brown Brothers, Harriman from the 1920s through the 
1940s. It was Brown Brothers, in conjunction with Averell Harriman, the 
Rockefeller family, Standard Oil, the DuPonts, the Morgans and the Fords 
who served as the principal funding arm in helping to finance Adolph 
Hitlers rise to power starting in 1923. This included direct funding for 
the SS and SA channeled through a variety of German firms. Prescott Bush, 
through associations with the Hamburg-Amerika Steamship line, Nazi banker 
Fritz Thyssen (pronounced Tee-sen), Standard Oil of Germany, The German 
Steel Trust (founded by Dillon Read founder, Clarence Dillon), and I.G. 
Farben, used the Union Bank Corporation to funnel vast quantities of money 
to the Nazis and to manage their American interests. The profits from those 
investments came back to Bush allies on Wall Street. Thyssen is universally 
regarded as having been Hitlers private banker and ultimate owner of the 
Union Bank Corporation.

Early support for Hitler came from Prescott Bush through the 
Hamburg-Amerika Steamship line -- also funded by Brown Bothers -- that 
funneled large sums of money and weapons to Hitlers storm troopers in the 
1920s.

According to Tarpley and Chaitkin, In May 1933, just after the Hitler 
regime was consolidated, an agreement was reached in Berlin for the 
coordination of all Nazi commerce with the U.S.A. The Harriman 
International Company was to head a syndicate of 150 firms and 
individuals, to conduct all exports from Hitler Germany to the United States.

Furthermore, a 1942 U.S. government investigative report that surfaced 
during 1945 Senate hearings found that the Union Bank, with Prescott Bush 
on the board, was an interlocking concern with the German Steel Trust 
that had produced:

- 50.8% of Nazi Germanys pig iron

- 41.4% of Nazi Germanys universal plate

- 36% of Nazi Germanys heavy plate

- 38.5% of Nazi Germanys galvanized sheet

- 45.5% of Nazi Germanys pipes and tubes

- 22.1% of Nazi Germanys wire

- 35% of Nazi Germanys explosives

The business relationships established by Bush in 1923 continued even after 
the war started until they became so offensive and overt as to warrant 
seizure by the U.S. government under the Trading with the Enemy Act in 1942.

In 1942, Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the government took over 
Union Banking Corporation, in which Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien 
Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.s stock shares

 all of which shares are held for the benefit of members of the Thyssen 
family, [and] is property of nationals of a designated enemy country.

On October 28, the government issued orders seizing two Nazi front 
organizations run by the Bush-Harriman bank: the Holland-American Trading 
Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation.

Nazi interests in the Silesian-American Corporation, long managed by 
Prescott Bush and his father in law George Herbert Walker, were seized 
under the Trading with the Enemy Act on Nov. 17, 1942 These seizures of 
Bush businesses were reported in a number of American papers including The 
New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.

Prescott Bush went on to become an influential Republican Senator from 
Connecticut who went on to be a regular golfing partner of President Dwight 
Eisenhower. His attorneys were the lawyers John Foster and Allen Dulles, 
the later became the CIA Director under Eisenhower.

Saddam Hussein

After becoming President in January 1989, Prescott Bushs son, George 
Herbert Walker Bush  father of our current President  authorized a series 
of programs that not only armed Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein but also 
provided him with technology that assisted in his development of chemical 
weapons like Sarin gas, and biological weapons, which he still possesses. 
Apologists for Bush (the elder) say that, after the Iran-Iraq War of the 
1980s left the region unstable, he was just trying to establish a new 
balance of power. Not so. Bush directives and policies, including 
relationships with the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), 
and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL) were directly and deliberately 
responsible for creating the army the U.S. fought in 1991.

A story by Russ W. Baker, in the March/April issue the Colombia Journalism 
Review (CJR), provided the most compelling overview of Iraqgate that I have 
seen.

ABC News Nightline opened last June 9 with words to make the heart stop 
It is becoming increasingly clear, said a grave Ted Koppel, that George 
Bush, operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated 
and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that 
built Saddams Iraq into the aggressive power that the United States 
ultimately had to destroy

Why, then, have some of our top papers provided so little coverage? Baker 
poignantly asks.

 The result: readers who neither grasp nor care about the facts behind 
facile imagery like The Butcher of Baghdad and Operation Desert Storm. In 
particular, readers who do not follow the story of the Banca Nazionale del 
Lavoro, which apparently served as a paymaster for Saddams arms buildup, 
and thus became a player in the largest bank-fraud case in U.S. history.

Complex, challenging, mind-boggling stories (from Iran-Contra to the S&L 
crisis to BCCI) increasingly define our times: yet we dont appear to be 
getting any better at telling them

Much of what Saddam received from the West was not arms per se, but 
so-called dual-use technology -- ultra sophisticated computers, armored 
ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian 
uses as well as military applications. Weve learned that a vast network of 
companies, based in the U.S. and abroad, eagerly fed the Iraqi war machine 
right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

And weve learned that the obscure Atlanta Branch of Italys largest bank, 
Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partly on U.S. taxpayer-guaranteed 
loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. Some 
government-backed loans were supposed to be for agricultural purposes, but 
were used to facilitate the purchase of stronger stuff than wheat. Federal 
Reserve and Agriculture department memos warned of suspected abuses by 
Iraq, which apparently took advantage of the loans to free up funds for 
munitions. U.S. taxpayers have been left holding the bag for what looks 
like $2 billion in defaulted loans to Iraq.

 In fact, we now know that in February 1990, then Attorney General Dick 
Thornburgh [appointed by George H.W. Bush] blocked U.S. investigators from 
traveling to Rome and Istanbul to pursue the case

 As New York Times columnist William Safire argued last December 7, 
Iraqgate is uniquely horrendous: a scandal about the Systematic abuse of 
power by misguided leaders of three democratic nations [The U.S., Britain, 
and Italy] to secretly finance the arms buildup of a dictator.

While Democrat Henry Gonzales, Chairman of the House Banking Committee 
during the period, stood as the lone voice from the wilderness in raising 
alarms about Bushs obvious corruption, the rest of the Congress sheepishly 
ignored all the signs demanding immediate action. Gonzales voice 
reportedly fell silent after his empty car was machine-gunned in a 
Washington suburb in what passed for a drive-by shooting.

The CJR continues: Meanwhile, The Village Voice published a major 
investigation by free-lancer Murray Waas in its December 18, 1990 issue 
That American troops could be killed or maimed because of a covert 
decision to arm Iraq, Waas wrote, is the most serious consequence of a 
U.S. foreign policy formulated and executed in secret, without the advice 
and consent of the American public

The L.A. Times, on Feb 23, 1992, dug deep enough to find secret National 
Security Decision Directives by the Bush Administration in 1989 ordering 
closer ties with Baghdad and paving the way for $1 billion in new aid. The 
Times series, co-authored with Waas, emphasized that, buried deep in a 
1991 Washington Press piece  that Secretary of State James Baker, after 
meeting with Iraqi foreign minister Tariq Aziz in October 1989, intervened 
personally to support U.S. government loans guarantees to Iraq.

Bakers CJR report also noted, On October 3, the [Wall Street] Journal 
reported [BNL official Christopher] Drogouls assertion that the director 
general of Iraqs Ministry of Industry and Military Production had told 
him, We are all in this together. The intelligence service of the U.S. 
government works very closely with the intelligence service of the Iraqi 
government. Three weeks later, the Journal reported that [Henry] Gonzales 
produced a phone-book-sized packet of documents showing the involvement 
of U.S. exporting firms The documents mentioned one which designed parts 
for Iraqs howitzers and was financed through BNL

In the wake of highly suspicious anthrax outbreaks in Florida, just miles 
from where several of the WTC suicides pilots trained, we add one final 
note. In his 1998 book "Bringing the War Home" author William Thomas 
writes,  Under that same [weapons transfer] program, 19 containers of 
Anthrax bacteria were supplied to Iraq in 1988 by the American Type Culture 
Collection company, located near Fort Detrick, MD, the site of the US 
Army's high security germ warfare labs.

The Carlyle Group, the Bushes and bin Laden

The warnings about the Carlyle Group, the nations 11th largest defense 
contractor, and the Bushes came long before the World Trade Center attacks. 
The Carlyle Group is a closely held corporation, exempt, for that reason, 
from reporting its affairs to the Securities and Exchange Commission. 
Little is known of what it actually does except that it buys and sells 
defense contractors. As of October 4, 2001, it has removed its corporate 
web site from the World Wide Web making further investigation through that 
channel impossible. Its Directors include Frank Carlucci, former Reagan 
Secretary of Defense; James Baker, former Bush Secretary of State; and 
Richard Darman, a former White House aide to Ronald Reagan and Republican 
Party operative.

On March 3, 2001, just weeks after George W Bushs inauguration, the 
conservative Washington lobbying group Judicial Watch issued a press 
release. It said:

(Washington, D.C.) Judicial Watch, the public interest law firm that 
investigates and prosecutes government abuse and corruption, called on 
former President George Herbert Walker Bush to resign immediately from the 
Carlyle Group, a private investment firm, while his son President George W. 
Bush is in office. Today's New York Times reported that the elder Bush is 
an "ambassador" for the $12 billion private investment firm and last year 
traveled to the Middle East on its behalf. The former president also helped 
the firm in South Korea.

The New York Times reported that as compensation, the elder Bush is 
allowed to buy a stake in the Carlyle Group's investments, which include 
ownership in at least 164 companies throughout the world (thereby by giving 
the current president an indirect benefit). James Baker, the former 
Secretary of State who served as President George W. Bush's point man in 
Florida's election dispute, is a partner in the firm. The firm also gave 
George W. Bush help in the early 1990's when it placed him on one of its 
subsidiary's board of directors.

"This is simply inappropriate. Former President Bush should immediately 
resign from the Carlyle Group because it is an obvious conflict of 
interest. Any foreign government or foreign investor trying to curry favor 
with the current Bush Administration is sure to throw business to the 
Carlyle Group. And with the former President Bush promoting the firm's 
investments abroad, foreign nationals could understandably confuse the 
Carlyle Group's interests with the interests of the United States 
government," stated Larry Klayman, Judicial Watch Chairman and General 
Counsel.

"Questions are now bound to be raised if the recent Bush Administration 
change in policy towards Iraq has the fingerprints of the Carlyle Group, 
which is trying to gain investments from other Arab countries who [sic] 
would presumably benefit from the new policy," stated Judicial Watch 
President Tom Fitton.

Judicial Watch noted that even the Clinton Administration called on the 
Rodham brothers to stop their business dealings in [The former Soviet 
Republic of] Georgia because those dealings started to destabilize that 
country.

Since the WTC attacks the Wall Street Journal has reported (Sept. 28, 2001) 
that, George H.W. Bush, the father of President Bush, works for the bin 
Laden family business in Saudi Arabia through the Carlyle Group, an 
international consulting firm. The senior Bush had met with the bin Laden 
family at least twice in the last three years  1998 and 2000 -- as a 
representative of Carlyle, seeking to expand business dealings with one of 
the wealthiest Saudi families, which some experts argue, has never fully 
severed its ties with black sheep Osama in spite of current reports in a 
mainstream press that is afraid of offending the current administration.

The Nation, on March 27, 2000  in a story co-authored by David Corn and 
Paul Lashmar  wrote, In January former President George Bush and former 
British Prime Minister John Major paid a social call on Saudi Arabian Crown 
Prince Abdullah This story confirms at least one meeting between the 
elder Bush and Saudi leaders, including the bin Ladens. That the bin Ladens 
attended this meeting was confirmed in a subsequent September 27, 2001 Wall 
Street Journal (WSJ) story. The January 2000 meeting with the bin Ladens 
was also later confirmed by Bush (the elders) Chief of Staff Jean Becker, 
only after the WSJ presented her with a thank you note sent by Bush to the 
bin Ladens after that meeting.

James Baker visited the bin Ladens in 1998 and 1999 with Carlyle CEO Frank 
Carlucci.

The WSJ story went on to note, A Carlyle executive said that the bin Laden 
family committed $2 million through a London investment arm in 1995 in 
Carlyle Partners II Fund, which raised $1.3 billion overall. The fund has 
purchased several aerospace companies among 29 deals. So far, the family 
has received $1.3 million back in completed investments and should 
ultimately realize a 40% annualized rate of return, the Carlyle executive 
said.

But a foreign financier with ties to the bin Laden family says the 
familys overall investment with Carlyle is considerably larger

In other words, Osama bin Ladens attacks on the WTC and Pentagon, with the 
resulting massive increase in the U.S. defense budget have just made his 
family a great big pile of money.

More Bush connections appear in relation to the bin Ladens. The WSJ story 
also notes that, During the past several years, the [bin Laden] familys 
close ties to the Saudi royal family prompted executives and staff from 
closely held New York publisher Forbes, Inc. to make two trips to the 
family headquarters, according to Forbes Chairman Caspar Weinberger, a 
former U.S. Secretary of Defense in the Reagan administration. We would 
call on them to get their view of the country and what would be of interest 
to investors.

President G.H.W. Bush pardoned Weinberger for his criminal conduct in the 
Iran-Contra scandal in 1989.

Our current President, George W. Bush has also had -- at minimum -- 
indirect dealings with Carlyle and the bin Ladens. In 1976 his firm Arbusto 
Energy was funded with $50,000 from Texas investment banker James R. Bath 
who was also the U.S. investment counselor for the bin Laden family. In his 
watershed 1992 book, The Mafia, The CIA and George Bush, award winning 
Texas investigative journalist Pete Brewton dug deeply into Baths 
background, revealing connections with the CIA and major fraudulent 
activities connected with the Savings & Loan scandal that took $500 billion 
out of the pockets of American taxpayers. A long-time friend of George W. 
Bush, Bath was connected to a number of covert financing operations in the 
Iran-Contra scandal, which also linked to bin Laden friend Adnan Khashoggi. 
One of the richest men in the world, Khashoggi was the arms merchant at the 
center of the whole Iran-Contra scandal. Khashoggi, whose connections to 
the bin Ladens is more than superficial, got his first business break by 
acting as middle-man for a large truck purchase by Osama bin Ladens older 
brother, Salem.

Another key player in the Bush Administration, Deputy Secretary of Defense 
Richard Armitage, left his post as an Assistant Secretary of Defense in the 
Reagan Administration after a series of scandals connected to CIA 
operatives Ed Wilson, Ted Shackley, Richard Secord and Tom Clines placed 
him at the brink of criminal indictment and jail. Shackley and Secord are 
veterans of Vietnam operations and have long been linked to opium/heroin 
smuggling. The Armitage scandals all focused on the illegal provision of 
weapons and war materiel to potential or actual enemies of the U.S. and to 
the Contras in Central America.

Armitage, a former Navy SEAL, who reportedly enjoyed combat missions and 
killing during covert operations in Laos during the Vietnam War, has never 
been far from the Bush familys side. Throughout his career, both in and 
out of government, he has been perpetually connected to CIA drug smuggling 
operations. Secretary of State Colin Powell, in a 1995 Washington Post 
story, called Armitage, my white son. In 1990, then President Bush 
dispatched Armitage to Russia to aid in its transition to capitalism. 
Armitages Russian work for Bush has been frequently connected to the 
explosion of drug trafficking under the Russian Mafias, which became 
virtual rulers of the nation afterwards. In the early 1990s Armitage had 
extensive involvement in Albania at the same time that the Albanian ally, 
Kosovo Liberation Army was coming to power and consolidating its grip, 
according to The Christian Science Monitor, on 70% of the heroin entering 
western Europe. [See FTW Vol. II, No 2  April 24, 1999]

Armitage and Carlucci are both Board Members of the influential Washington 
think tank, the Middle East Policy Council.

The connections continue with Vice President Dick Cheney. Amongst the 
multitude of oil pipeline construction running through the new war zone is 
one project  according to a Sept. 19, 2001 Wall Street Journal story  a 
joint venture in which the bin Laden family joined with the construction 
firm H.C. Price. A researcher named Phoenix, writing for the Internet 
news site Rumor Mills News Agency located at www.rumormillnews.com, 
reported that Price subsequently changed its name to Bredero Shaw, Inc. and 
is now owned by a subsidiary of the Halliburton Corporation, Dresser 
Industries. It was Dresser industries that gave George H.W. Bush his first 
post war job in 1948. A check of the relevant corporate web sites has 
confirmed this.

Vice President Dick Cheney, who served as Secretary of Defense during 
Desert Storm, directing the campaign against Saddam Hussein, was 
Halliburtons CEO until last years election.

And, according to a 2000 story from Harpers Magazine, in 1990 our current 
President, through a position as a corporate director of Caterair, owned by 
the Carlyle Group  at a time when the bin Ladens were invested in Carlyle 
 had additional connections to the bin Laden family. In addition, on March 
1, 1995, when George W. Bush was Texas governor and a senior Trustee of the 
university, the University of Texas Endowment voted to place $10 million in 
investments with the Carlyle Group. As to how much of that money went to 
the bin Ladens we can only guess. But we do know that there is a long 
tradition in the Bush family of giving money to those who kill Americans.

Now, as the people of America are beginning to awaken to what is really 
being unleashed upon them, as a few brave souls are asking whos going to 
get all the money the Bush Administration is borrowing from government 
coffers and whos going to pay for it - the above history is more than 
ominous.

Considering that during the 1980s, under the pretext of fighting a 
Sandinista regime in Nicaragua that never once launched an attack on the 
U.S., these same people oversaw an explosion in U.S. cocaine consumption 
that went from 80 metric tons in 1979 to 600 metric tons in 1989 - 
considering that the CIA trained and equipped death squads that tortured 
and murdered hundreds of thousands of people from Guatemala to Panama  
considering that these same people have brutalized Iraq, leaving portions 
of it radioactively contaminated by depleted uranium for the next 4 billion 
years and causing a fivefold increase in the number of childhood leukemia 
cases amidst a starving population, one can only wonder what they will 
produce for the world now given the context of the World Trade Center attacks.

www.copvcia.com/stories/oct_2001/carlyle...




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 15:58:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:58:08 +1100
Subject: George Mason's groaning in his grave
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219094706.00a2bb20@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues00/may00/mason.html

in September 1787 as the delegates to the Constitutional Convention 
gathered at the State House (now Independence Hall) in Philadelphia to sign 
the new Constitution. Only three present refused to add their names. One of 
them was the Virginian George Mason. Because the Constitution created a 
federal government he felt might be too powerful, and because it did not 
end the slave trade and did not contain a bill of rights, he withheld his 
support from the document he had played so large a role in crafting.
In 1776, Mason, then 51, had been appointed to a committee charged with 
drafting a "Declaration of Rights" for Virginia. From the writings of 
English Enlightenment philosopher John Locke (1632-1704), Mason had come to 
a then-radical insight: that a republic had to begin with the formal, 
legally binding commitment that individuals had inalienable rights that 
were superior to any government.
One other committee member did play a significant role: Mason's young 
friend James Madison, who kept his (and Mason's) friend Thomas Jefferson 
apprised of Mason's progress in drafting the declaration. Mason's work 
began, "That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have 
certain inherent rights...namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with 
the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining 
happiness and safety." Jefferson's U.S. Declaration of Independence 
included the immortal words of what may be the most famous political 
statement in history: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all 
men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain 
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of 
Happiness."

In 1787, toward the end of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, 
Mason proposed that a bill of rights preface the Constitution, but his 
proposal was defeated. When he refused to sign the new Constitution, his 
decision baffled some and alienated others, including his old friend, 
George Washington. Mason's stand nonetheless had its effect. At the first 
session of the first Congress, Madison introduced a Bill of Rights that 
paralleled Mason's Declaration of Rights of 1776.

Abstract of an article by Stephan A. Schwartz, originally published in the 
May 2000 issue of Smithsonian. All rights reserved. Please read."To few 
realise the vast debt we owe george mason." harry s truman.




From memyemc1218 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 19 09:03:33 2001
From: memyemc1218 at yahoo.com (-Safe Emailing)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:03:33 -0600
Subject: Responsive Email Leads, Safe Direct Mailing
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From roy at scytale.com  Wed Dec 19 09:09:48 2001
From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:09:48 -0600
Subject: Digital Angel gets under the skin after all
Message-ID: <3C20757C.8280.B6EC65@localhost>


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-121901chips.story

Applied Digital Solutions is pursuing the implantable chip after all.  
It's not the GPS-trackable unit yet, but more like the doggie chips.  
The L.A. Times story says it holds "up to 60 words" in one place, 
and "several sentences of information" in another.

Interesting that they plan to be to market in South America in 90 
days (because of fewer required regulatory permissions).  They say 
they expect FDA and FCC approval here by midyear.

Anyone want to get barcoded?

--
Roy M. Silvernail
Proprietor, scytale.com
roy at scytale.com




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 16:37:19 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:37:19 +1100
Subject: Wackenhutt west of Cabazon and the new "Aussi KGB"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219112847.00a305f0@pop.useoz.com>


New powers 'create Aussie KGB'
 From AAP
19dec01
GIVING spy agency ASIO wide-ranging powers to fight terrorism would turn it 
into Australia's own KGB, civil libertarians have argued.
Draft laws endorsed by cabinet yesterday include giving ASIO officers the 
power to detain people for 48 hours without a lawyer if they are suspected 
of having information about potential terrorist attacks.
Civil Liberties Council spokesman Cameron Murphy today said the Government 
plan was unwarranted, and likened the resulting organisation to the Russian 
secret police of the Cold War.
"They (the Government) haven't demonstrated that there's public need for 
the powers and they really are going to turn ASIO into a secret police," he 
told Channel Seven.
"The last time we saw these sort of powers being given to an ASIO or 
intelligence service was like the KGB - it's that severe."
Cabinet also agreed to make terrorism and fundraising for terrorists 
punishable by life imprisonment, and to crack down on financial transactions.
Attorney-General Daryl Williams said the new measures were recommended by a 
top-level security review following the September 11 terrorist attacks in 
the US.
Mr Murphy said that while there were immediate concerns over terrorism, the 
Government was proposing ASIO keep its powers indefinitely.
"We need to be very careful of that because once the imminent crisis is 
over in terrorism what we'll find is that ASIO's attention will focus on 
innocent members of the Australian public," he said.
"A response is necessary, but this is too much of a response ... the 
Government is going the whole hog and giving them too much power."
A plan to allow ASIO to open unread e-mail also targeted innocent people, 
Mr Murphy said.
"The powers are inappropriate and I don't think we can trust an 
organisation like ASIO with these sort of powers."
He said security services such as ASIO had used the September 11 terrorist 
attacks as an opportunity to make a "grab for power".
Labor has supported most of the measures, but said it would move for a 
parliamentary inquiry into the new ASIO powers, which the Australian 
Democrats and Greens have labelled draconian.
Wackenhuts wacked.
Detainees riot again
 From AAP
19dec01
WOOMERA Detention Centre in South Australia is on "red alert" after inmates 
rioted for a second night.
Authorities used tear gas to disperse a group of detainees at the facility 
who lit a fire and attacked a perimeter fence late last night, a Department 
of Immigration spokeswoman said.
That followed explosions and fires at the centre on Monday night, when 
hundreds of detainees rioted over the allocation of visas.
"There was a further fire in the main compound at the centre (last night)," 
the immigration spokeswoman said early this morning.
"There was also a significant number of detainees that entered what we call 
the sterile zone (between the inner and outer perimeter fences).
"That group of detainees would not obey a direction to return to their 
accommodation."
The spokeswoman said the detainees were attacking a perimeter fence and had 
to be subdued using tear gas.
It was unclear how much damage was done, or how many detainees were involved.
All detainees were returned to the accommodation blocks by 12.30am (AEDT).
But the spokeswoman said the atmosphere was extremely tense with security 
forces standing "on red alert".
Additional security has been imposed at the isolated facility, and Port 
Augusta police said they had sent a crew to the centre, about 160 
kilometres away.
The fire in the main compound was reportedly extinguished by detainees not 
involved in the riot, the spokeswoman said.
In the previous night's attack, witnesses described "huge" explosions, 
flames 10 metres high and fires from one end of the centre to the other in 
the most serious incident at the facility since a mass break-out about 18 
months ago.
Fifteen buildings were set alight and four completely destroyed during the 
riot.
KGB,Red Alerts,jamesd,HELP!




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 16:53:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:53:56 +1100
Subject: Nazi dwarf,tom cruise,in singapore.Scientologist City.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219114734.00a30370@pop.useoz.com>


http://theage.com.au/entertainment/2001/12/19/FFXKJ94KCVC.html

Tom Cruise says Hollywood will stop internet thieves
Wednesday 19 December 2001
People who download movies off the internet are "thieves" who threaten the 
potential of the film industry, Tom Cruise said yesterday.

People who support fascistic *religions TM ,should be struck by cruise 
missiles says proffr safe in nicoles own country,au

http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/Scientology_cases/20010622_eff_henson_pr.html




From thesilentbooking at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 19 12:12:52 2001
From: thesilentbooking at yahoo.com (The Silence Booking)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:12:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ok, you win... please help
Message-ID: <20011219201252.10531.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>


Ok, i am not gonna reply with a mean reply. I hope you
can understand what is going on. Let me please
explain, and mabey you can help me.

I have four emails I use to book bands for my
business, these are the emails:

TheSilentBooking at yahoo.com
TheSilentmusic at Yahoo.com
TheSilenceKills at yahoo.com
TheArmyOfSilence at yahoo.com

Now, as of about a week ago, mabey less, i started to
recieve stuff from CDR: Mailing list. Now, again, i
woulnt have a problem with you sending me mabey a
mailer aday, but, i am getting over 60 emails in my
inbox. Just this morning, i had 132 emails in this
email alone, which overloaded my yahoo account. I have
looked at the Unscribing methods, and on my fathers
grave I have. I have tried everything to be removed.I
get replied with "Unscribe No Reconized". Now, for
one, i just want this to please stop. I dont know how
i got on her, mabey someone is playing a joke on me, I
dont know, and they added me? but, again, all my
emails are getting these CDR: replies. What can i do
to have this stop, Again , i have tried what you said
and its not working. I dont want any trouble from you,
honestly, i just want to get back to business. My
emails is the only way i communicate over the country
with clubs and bookers and bands. If you can give me
step my step instruction, that would help. mabey i am
a moron, but, i do need some help here.

Best Regards,
Steve Juliano

=====
MSM Management
5713 Harco St.
Long Beach, CA 90808
Office: (213) 760-2258
Http://www.thesilencemusic.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 09:16:37 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:16:37 -0500 (est)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Last I heard, neither MAE East, nor MAE West were ever dragged into
court on co-conspiritor charges just because packets from some German
hacker kid hopped through their Cisco's.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > If I were a remailer operator, I'm not sure I'd like this. Active
> > cooperation with another remaler operator means that if
> > he/she/it does something illegal, you could be dragged in
> 
> How is this different from the current situation? Is usage of a specific
> mainstream protocol sufficient protection from conspiracy charges? Joe Bob
> Postfixuser is hardly a remailer operator.
> 
> > on 'conspiracy' charges, regardless whether you actually
> > had any knowledge of the the other operators nefarious
> > activities.
> 
> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 09:30:17 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:30:17 -0500 (est)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200112171933.OAA01512@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them did have nightmares about the
> Constitution. Not as a piece of paper dancing around on Mickey Mouse legs or
> whatever the hell you're getting at, but as an idea repersenting the rule
> of law that was going to lead to them being jailed for murder. Which
> unfortunately never happened, but so it goes.    

One would hope that the same guys that swore an oath to serve and protect
the laws of the USA would realize that the very first such set of laws was
and is the Constitution.

Certainly power does corrupt, but you've got to think that at one point in
their lives before they became G men, they had it in mind that they were
doing something good and wholesome in working for Uncle Sam, and
protecting Americans and the American Way of Life (as defined by the
Declaration of Independance, the Bill of Rights, etc.)

Unless of course it was a choice between flippin' Big Mac's and workin'
for Uncle Sam... but I digress.. :)

They are supposed to be the good guys after all - serving the law (and by
definition the greatest law of the USA - its Constitution).  You know,
they're supposed to be the ones wearing the white cowboy hats.  The ones
that never start the gun fights, but always win them, the ones that help
old ladies cross the corral... Not the cattle rustlin', horse theiving,
lying, cussin', motherlovin', train-robbin', scandal covering up guys who
in the movies are always wearing black cowboy hats.

Seeing creatures (as in the lore of H.P. Lovecraft) such as Janet Reno,
Lon Hirouchi (sp?) and Jeff Gordon, one wants to walk up to them and ask
"Where did you go astray?  What corrupted you?  Or were you just attracted
to power like a horsefly to fresh dog shit?"


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From thesilentbooking at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 19 12:34:04 2001
From: thesilentbooking at yahoo.com (The Silence Booking)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:34:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ok, you win... please help
In-Reply-To: <20011219201252.10531.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20011219203404.93296.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>


i got a emptpy reply from you...just curious on what
you were trying to send me.

Thanks,
-Steve


--- The Silence Booking 
wrote:
> Ok, i am not gonna reply with a mean reply. I hope
> you
> can understand what is going on. Let me please
> explain, and mabey you can help me.
> 
> I have four emails I use to book bands for my
> business, these are the emails:
> 
> TheSilentBooking at yahoo.com
> TheSilentmusic at Yahoo.com
> TheSilenceKills at yahoo.com
> TheArmyOfSilence at yahoo.com
> 
> Now, as of about a week ago, mabey less, i started
> to
> recieve stuff from CDR: Mailing list. Now, again, i
> woulnt have a problem with you sending me mabey a
> mailer aday, but, i am getting over 60 emails in my
> inbox. Just this morning, i had 132 emails in this
> email alone, which overloaded my yahoo account. I
> have
> looked at the Unscribing methods, and on my fathers
> grave I have. I have tried everything to be
> removed.I
> get replied with "Unscribe No Reconized". Now, for
> one, i just want this to please stop. I dont know
> how
> i got on her, mabey someone is playing a joke on me,
> I
> dont know, and they added me? but, again, all my
> emails are getting these CDR: replies. What can i do
> to have this stop, Again , i have tried what you
> said
> and its not working. I dont want any trouble from
> you,
> honestly, i just want to get back to business. My
> emails is the only way i communicate over the
> country
> with clubs and bookers and bands. If you can give me
> step my step instruction, that would help. mabey i
> am
> a moron, but, i do need some help here.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Steve Juliano
> 
> =====
> MSM Management
> 5713 Harco St.
> Long Beach, CA 90808
> Office: (213) 760-2258
> Http://www.thesilencemusic.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for
> all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com


=====
MSM Management
5713 Harco St.
Long Beach, CA 90808
Office: (213) 760-2258
Http://www.thesilencemusic.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Dec 19 09:53:20 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:53:20 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


> Ben Xain[SMTP:bxain at redneck.gacracker.org]
> 
> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
> > > Can't spam be repelled by not forwarding email not encrypted to
> > > the remailer's key?
> 
> 
> In fact, spammers currently *do* send mail encrypted to the remailers'
> keys.  It's a pain in the ass trying to filter the damn stuff out.
> 
> Ben Xain
> bxain at redneck.gacracker.org
> 
First I've heard that. Frankly, I'm suprised. 

One solution, which I've long advocated, is for the remailer to drop mail
which has an unencrypted body after it's applied it's decryption key. 

Provided this is an announced policy, substantially increases the 
protection of the mail and the remop. It does mean that only people
capable of using encryption can receive mail via the remailer, but
that's probably a *good* thing.

Peter Trei






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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Wed Dec 19 03:17:59 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:17:59 +0200 (EET)
Subject: IRS Agent Goes Berserk, Assaults Citizen, by Pat Shannan 
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:25:41 -0800
From: Deon Masker 
Reply-To: Conspiracy-Theory at yahoogroups.com
To: ddDeon 
Subject: [Conspiracy-Theory] Fw: [Renegades_Coalition] IRS Agent Goes Berserk,
     Assaults Citizen, by Pat Shannan

Disclaimer:
~~For entertainment or educational purposes only~~
[Title 17 U.S.C. section 107]
Should this email has reached you in error, please return
it with "removePatriotList" in the subject line or just click here:
mailto:deonmm at earthlink.net?subject=removePatriot/88L


----- Original Message -----
From: "
To: <
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: IRS Agent Goes Berserk, Assaults Citizen, by Pat Shannan


>From the news Desk at YACE Freedom 91.9 FM Help spread the news!
Long Live the Republic, Death to the new world order!
****************************************************************************
****


IRS Agent Goes Berserk, Assaults Citizen Local Cops, Sheriff Refuse to
Prosecute
http://www.4bypass.com/feature.htm

by Pat Shannan Dec. 2001

A sign spotted recently over the door of one IRS office says: "Seizure
Fever ­ Catch It!" Word has it that the IRS agent with the best seizure
rate for the week is rewarded with a brief respite and other job "perks."
Apparently the pressure to hit his weekly plunder bonus was more than one
revenuer could stand, and when he was asked to show the law justifying his
actions, he blew a head gasket.

The Oct. 2 incident occurred when Wiley Davis, an IRS Team Manager from
Colorado, became agitated with Las Vegas resident Ken Nicholson, 37, during
a hearing to discuss an IRS lien against some property owned by Nicholson's
friend, Keith Milbourn. Davis, 45, had been brought in from Denver
specifically for the Milbourn case.

The Las Vegas Tribune first reported the altercation as arising from a tax
dispute involving an IRS lien against some property belonging to Ken
Nicholson. This was inaccurate. Nicholson had gone along as counsel for his
friends, Keith and Shawna Milbourn, and as a witness to the proceedings. It
was Milbourn's case that was in dispute. They had also taken along court
reporter Beatrice Conner, who caught the whole incident on audiotape.

Nicholson had Power of Attorney to speak for Milbourn, 32. Davis was
assisted by a female agent. Throughout the hearing, the two men made it
clear that they were not going to take Davis' word for anything and would
need actual documentation to prove the IRS' stand. Finally, Nicholson said
that they would be willing to pay whatever the IRS claimed Milbourn owed if
Davis could:

1) Produce a Notice and Demand for the tax; and

2) Give a Code Section which made Milbourn liable.

Nicholson said, and witnesses as well as the tape recording concur, that
Davis did not attempt to produce that evidence but instead became visibly
angry, lost his self-control and attacked Nicholson.

Offense is the Best Defense

"Out of nowhere," said Nicholson, "he jumped up out of his chair and came
around the table, grabbed my chair, and began bouncing it up and down. He
shoved it forward and pushed me toward the table. [In the process,] my legs
came apart and were straddling the arm of the chair. With three or four
quick jerks, he yanked the arm of the chair upward and into my groin. Then
he grabbed me and began to physically evict me from the room."

Security officers came in and stopped the melee at the Oakley Boulevard
office of the IRS in Las Vegas.

Court stenographer Beatrice Conner was shocked speechless when Nicholson
was knocked to the floor. "It was totally without provocation," she said.
"He (Davis) was so angry and violent that if he had had a gun, he would
have pulled it out!"

Keith Milbourn, who witnessed the whole meeting and scuffle, gave more
details:

"By the time we called the police there were about ten people in the
hallway including other agents, the witnesses and security guards,"
Milbourn told us, adding that the other IRS agent who was in the room,
Renee Swells, was "surprised and shocked" by Davis' action. Swells was
unavailable for comment.

Milbourn and Nicholson had called 911 "and the cops arrived in five minutes
all gung-ho and ready to arrest Ken. However, when they heard the tape
played back, they all fell silent, not knowing what to do."

So the officers did nothing. No arrest was made.

Both men said they tried to report the incident to the U.S. attorney's
office, as well as the FBI, but both Justice Department entities declined
to take their report. The same proved to be true at the county level with
Sheriff Jerry Keller.

"I know that if I would have assaulted the IRS agent, I would be sitting in
jail right now," Nicholson said. "But because the IRS agent is the one who
assaulted me, Metro [Las Vegas Police] only took a statement and let him
go."

Hidden Ball Trick

When the Metro police came out, Nicholson gave a voluntary statement backed
up by his witnesses and the tape recording. He was told that he would have
to wait five days before the report would be actually recorded in the
police records.

"On the sixth day, I went in and found out that no police report had been
made at all. When I demanded that the report be filed and made official, I
was told that I had a statute of limitations of five days to ask and demand
prosecution from the date of the incident and that now I was too late."

In other words, Nicholson was hoodwinked by officialdom. A spokesman for
the Las Vegas Police Department said that investigators informed Nicholson
he had to contact the department within five days of the incident if he
wanted to initiate action against Davis, since it was "just a misdemeanor
battery." LVMPD officials are sticking to their story that Nicholson had
not contacted the department seeking action against Davis.

The spokesman also said the department gave all of the information to the
IRS Criminal Investigation Division. No announcement has been forthcoming
as to whether Davis has been terminated, placed on leave pending an
investigation, or is being held for psychiatric observation.

"If Nicholson wants prosecution, he can contact the general investigations
division within the department and they can move forward on it," the
unnamed spokesman added. However, the frustrations of not seeing any
justice in the criminal courts have motivated Nicholson toward a civil
action.

[---cut---]

Read the rest of the story in the December 2001 issue.





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Renegades_Coalition-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son
of man." -Luke 21:36



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From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 18:21:51 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:21:51 +1100
Subject: Everyone a remailer:Everyone a mint:Everyone an assassin
  predictor
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219130859.00a33d80@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.spammimic.com/ is a commercial example of a good use to put 
spam.Like steggin' pron.the hide in the herd idea.Its a shame larry ellison 
chose the dark side.Oracle sized remailers could be useful to speed the 
crypto-revolution.
He used to make sense on the 'network as computer',then he must have 
twigged that would lead to his demise.
In the developing labyrinth progress will be slower,but sure,toward 
distributed,P-P,encrypted,alternate OS plug ins that will
accomplish all we seek to achieve.

But remember, please, the Law by which we live,
We are not built to comprehend a lie.
We can neither live nor pity, nor forgive,
If you make a slip in handling us you die!
--The Secret of the Machines-- Rudyard Kipling




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 19:25:44 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:25:44 +1100
Subject: Quantum encryption close but may not be uncrackable.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219135128.00a33710@pop.useoz.com>


Beryllium is valuable in the manufacture of nuclear weapons,China recently 
used some tipping their ICBMs.One atom of it was used in an experiment to 
decide the fate of Schroedinger's cat.From.
.
...http://www.sciam.com/explorations/061796explorations.html

The recent breakthrough of single photon emission in Britain brings quantum 
manipulation/encryption tantalizingly closer.The states days are almost 
certainly numbered but getting back to the cat.The Schroedingers cat 
experiment is based on the standard model of Quantum mechanics.The SMQM,if 
true means a universe must exist for every physical possibility.The 
notorious *parallel worlds* theory.
This could guarantee uncrackable encryption yet its a big swallow for 
some,not just pussy.The double slit experiment is even cited as providing 
evidence for neighboring universes.(D.Deutsch.new scientist.july.01.)Its 
truly bizarre to see exactly what some present *concrete* beliefs are 
really based on.Shared hallucinations indeed,possibly even kitty litter.
Is there a human Schroedinger? What of ralph Mc Gehee? Would looking to 
hard for his missing usenet posts kill him?
Uncrackable quantum encryption will save ralph and us from the out of 
control rogue terror state yet if the SMQM breaks down even an higgs 
boson's worth then we could all be back to square one.




From jei at cc.hut.fi  Wed Dec 19 04:31:37 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:31:37 +0200 (EET)
Subject: IRS Agent Goes Berserk, Assaults Citizen, by Pat Shannan
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:25:41 -0800
From: Deon Masker 
Reply-To: Conspiracy-Theory at yahoogroups.com
To: ddDeon 
Subject: [Conspiracy-Theory] Fw: [Renegades_Coalition] IRS Agent Goes Berserk,
     Assaults Citizen, by Pat Shannan

Disclaimer:
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----- Original Message -----
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To: <
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: IRS Agent Goes Berserk, Assaults Citizen, by Pat Shannan


>From the news Desk at YACE Freedom 91.9 FM Help spread the news!
Long Live the Republic, Death to the new world order!
****************************************************************************
****


IRS Agent Goes Berserk, Assaults Citizen Local Cops, Sheriff Refuse to
Prosecute
http://www.4bypass.com/feature.htm

by Pat Shannan Dec. 2001

A sign spotted recently over the door of one IRS office says: "Seizure
Fever ­ Catch It!" Word has it that the IRS agent with the best seizure
rate for the week is rewarded with a brief respite and other job "perks."
Apparently the pressure to hit his weekly plunder bonus was more than one
revenuer could stand, and when he was asked to show the law justifying his
actions, he blew a head gasket.

The Oct. 2 incident occurred when Wiley Davis, an IRS Team Manager from
Colorado, became agitated with Las Vegas resident Ken Nicholson, 37, during
a hearing to discuss an IRS lien against some property owned by Nicholson's
friend, Keith Milbourn. Davis, 45, had been brought in from Denver
specifically for the Milbourn case.

The Las Vegas Tribune first reported the altercation as arising from a tax
dispute involving an IRS lien against some property belonging to Ken
Nicholson. This was inaccurate. Nicholson had gone along as counsel for his
friends, Keith and Shawna Milbourn, and as a witness to the proceedings. It
was Milbourn's case that was in dispute. They had also taken along court
reporter Beatrice Conner, who caught the whole incident on audiotape.

Nicholson had Power of Attorney to speak for Milbourn, 32. Davis was
assisted by a female agent. Throughout the hearing, the two men made it
clear that they were not going to take Davis' word for anything and would
need actual documentation to prove the IRS' stand. Finally, Nicholson said
that they would be willing to pay whatever the IRS claimed Milbourn owed if
Davis could:

1) Produce a Notice and Demand for the tax; and

2) Give a Code Section which made Milbourn liable.

Nicholson said, and witnesses as well as the tape recording concur, that
Davis did not attempt to produce that evidence but instead became visibly
angry, lost his self-control and attacked Nicholson.

Offense is the Best Defense

"Out of nowhere," said Nicholson, "he jumped up out of his chair and came
around the table, grabbed my chair, and began bouncing it up and down. He
shoved it forward and pushed me toward the table. [In the process,] my legs
came apart and were straddling the arm of the chair. With three or four
quick jerks, he yanked the arm of the chair upward and into my groin. Then
he grabbed me and began to physically evict me from the room."

Security officers came in and stopped the melee at the Oakley Boulevard
office of the IRS in Las Vegas.

Court stenographer Beatrice Conner was shocked speechless when Nicholson
was knocked to the floor. "It was totally without provocation," she said.
"He (Davis) was so angry and violent that if he had had a gun, he would
have pulled it out!"

Keith Milbourn, who witnessed the whole meeting and scuffle, gave more
details:

"By the time we called the police there were about ten people in the
hallway including other agents, the witnesses and security guards,"
Milbourn told us, adding that the other IRS agent who was in the room,
Renee Swells, was "surprised and shocked" by Davis' action. Swells was
unavailable for comment.

Milbourn and Nicholson had called 911 "and the cops arrived in five minutes
all gung-ho and ready to arrest Ken. However, when they heard the tape
played back, they all fell silent, not knowing what to do."

So the officers did nothing. No arrest was made.

Both men said they tried to report the incident to the U.S. attorney's
office, as well as the FBI, but both Justice Department entities declined
to take their report. The same proved to be true at the county level with
Sheriff Jerry Keller.

"I know that if I would have assaulted the IRS agent, I would be sitting in
jail right now," Nicholson said. "But because the IRS agent is the one who
assaulted me, Metro [Las Vegas Police] only took a statement and let him
go."

Hidden Ball Trick

When the Metro police came out, Nicholson gave a voluntary statement backed
up by his witnesses and the tape recording. He was told that he would have
to wait five days before the report would be actually recorded in the
police records.

"On the sixth day, I went in and found out that no police report had been
made at all. When I demanded that the report be filed and made official, I
was told that I had a statute of limitations of five days to ask and demand
prosecution from the date of the incident and that now I was too late."

In other words, Nicholson was hoodwinked by officialdom. A spokesman for
the Las Vegas Police Department said that investigators informed Nicholson
he had to contact the department within five days of the incident if he
wanted to initiate action against Davis, since it was "just a misdemeanor
battery." LVMPD officials are sticking to their story that Nicholson had
not contacted the department seeking action against Davis.

The spokesman also said the department gave all of the information to the
IRS Criminal Investigation Division. No announcement has been forthcoming
as to whether Davis has been terminated, placed on leave pending an
investigation, or is being held for psychiatric observation.

"If Nicholson wants prosecution, he can contact the general investigations
division within the department and they can move forward on it," the
unnamed spokesman added. However, the frustrations of not seeing any
justice in the criminal courts have motivated Nicholson toward a civil
action.

[---cut---]

Read the rest of the story in the December 2001 issue.





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Renegades_Coalition-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son
of man." -Luke 21:36



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Wed Dec 19 04:47:11 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:47:11 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [Spy News] FBI expands hunt on warez scene (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:45:33 +0100
From: Mario Profaca 
Reply-To: spynews-owner at yahoogroups.com
To: "[Spy News]" 
Subject: [Spy News] FBI expands hunt on warez scene

http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=2023

FBI expands hunt on warez scene

Posted by me101 on 07:51 EST on 18 Dec 2001 - 12:51 GMT | 25 comments

Found this over on GeekNews, pointing to a story over on New Order,
regarding some additional information in relation to the FBI's ongoing warez
raids.

The FBI has, in the past week, been involved in raids against WAREZ groups,
including 90+ scene group senior members and leaders in US, Canada, Britain,
Australia, Norway, 2 cracking groups in Poland. New raids are expected in
the next days or so..

Now We've got confirmed insider information, that four major efnet servers
are currently running in debug mode, which enables them to see ALL private
traffic, like private chat, passwords sent to channel protection bots,
messages, etc. and the information is being filtered and sent to the FBI,
which requested this. Currently, a big EDU server, and .ORG server.




---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.309 / Virus Database: 170 - Release Date: 17. 12. 01


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From matt at rearviewmirror.org  Wed Dec 19 15:31:52 2001
From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:31:52 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References:  
Message-ID: <20011219233152.GA29569@rearviewmirror.org>


It's not worth the effort. It's not worth the effort. It won't make a
damn bit of difference.

Oh, fuckit.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 04:57:15PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > Since capitalism is a meritocracy (Those who work eat;
> 
> That is certainly a good definition of 'commerce', it is not accurate for
> 'capitalism'. Capitalism represents the belief that $$$ is the primary
> goal in life. That he who collects the most is the best. That all things
> can be reduced to a 'price'.

No.

Capitalism is a meritocracy. *Commerce* is simply a label for that class
of activities that include all forms of resource transfer from one
entity (person, company, nation, world) to another. Some of those are
meritocracies, such as capitalism. Others are not - true communism is
one example, almost any form of "planned economy", welfare. 

As for your definition of capitalism - lay the crack pipe *down*, and
slowly step away. Capitalism, pure and simple, is the idea that
competition and market forces will solve problems. Price of bread too
high? Someone will open a cheaper bakery. Too many bakeries for the
market? Those with the weakest support and poorest quality will fail.
That's all. Everything else is an add-on. It's a meritcracy because
emotion and sentiment are not supposed to enter into the equation -
either succeed or fail, based on how well you compete. Period. Reality
is not that simple, but then, reality seldom is.

> It is a faulty assumption and a warped view of humanity. As are yours.

Hello Mr. Pot, and how are you today? What's that? Who's black?

> Finis.

I'm beginning to think that Mr. Choate should never, ever, be allowed to
declare a discussion finished or claim to have the "last word".

-- 
Matt Beland
matt at rearviewmirror.org
http://www.rearviewmirror.org




From jei at cc.hut.fi  Wed Dec 19 06:13:08 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:13:08 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Licenced to Program?
Message-ID: 


http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-8145809.html?tag=tp_pr

Enough already! Ban programming.
@ Articles     Dec 16 2001 - 02:54 EST 
acideye writes:  


No I don't agree with or endorse in any way this statement, but to anyone
who would like an insight into the minds (often closed minds) of the
general public who have been manipulated by the mass media into almost
decleration of war on Hackers and other such sub-cultures of hacking. 
This article is from Adequacy.org and as such copyright and the rest of
it. 


Programming computers is, for practically everyone, something done far
away in exotic software engineering facilities by a priesthood of
ultra-specialized, half-mad obsessive-compulsives. This is as it should
be, and it is where we get the software we use every day to do our online
banking, send email, and get productive work done. Though few normal
people have any experience of it, or know anyone who does it, there is
another kind of programming performed outside this legitimate sphere, one
that you probably assumed was illegal, but shockingly, is not. 
This other kind of programming also affects us every day, but negatively,
as a continuous series of massive disruptions to the worldwide economy in
the form of viruses, in the form of important and useful computer services
being sabotaged with denial-of-service, in the form of defacement attacks,
and in the form of substantially higher prices for all sorts of
intellectual property such as software, DVD movies and music on CD, all
due to piracy. I'm talking about "hacking" of course. It is the evil dark
side to all the good that computers have brought us, and we are all sick
of it. The time has come to put a stop to "hacking", because we can no
longer tolerate the damage "hackers" cause, and the potential risk of
terrorism when, not if, "hackers" go to work for such forces of mayhem as
have begun an onslaught of terror against not just the United States, but
Western Civilization's freedom to be loose and decadent in general. 

For a time, our society tolerated "hackers" because they promised that
something useful would come of their shady and secretive tinkering. Yet we
have had nothing but a harvest of bitter fruit from "hackers", and it is
now time to pull the plug. It is time to ban all unlicensed computer
programming, and take steps to ensure that no one outside of government,
select universities, and state-sanctioned private-sector corporate
software engineering facilities is given the knowledge, skills, or means
to write or compile computer code of any kind. Amateur or hobbyist
computer programming has grown from a minor annoyance to a major social
disease, and it simply can no longer be tolerated. 
Although ordinary decent people will find this suggestion to be obvious to
the point of banality -- in fact, I'm sure many of you are surprised that
amateur computer programming was ever legal! -- many of those who
associate themselves with the "hacker community" will bridle at the
suggestion. Strictly as an exercise, it would perhaps be diverting to
entertain some of their more obvious objections. 

The first cry in defense of hobbyists toying with this dangerous
technology is that hackers have already proven their worth by producing a
valuable piece of software -- namely, the Apache web server. Others would
even claim that more than one useful program has been written in the
garages and and lonely bedrooms of hobbyists. There are two delusions at
work here. 

One of these delusions is that any of the Open Source applications that
have found some utility in business and industry were written by amateurs.
The truth is that Apache began it's life as the work of professional
coders employed by Amazon.com, and as any software engineer you want to
ask can tell you, nothing of value was added by anyone but professionals.
In truth, the work of the gainfully employed programmers on this project
was often interrupted and even sabotaged by the ham-fisted meddling of the
teenage wanna-be's and self-styled "gurus" who have accumulated around
professional Open Source projects like so many leeches and barnacles. This
episode alone demonstrates that if there is anything good to come out of
Open Source methodology, it will only be helped along by the removal of
dilettantes from the picture. Indeed, once the "hackers" have been
outlawed, Open Source will very likely reach new heights of utility and
quality, and perhaps even fulfill the promise of greatness that Open
Source advocates have been making for years. 

The other delusion, or I should say piece of misinformation, that has been
perpetrated by "hackers" is that there are many other "tools" that have
been created by hackers and gifted to a grateful world by our benevolent
hobbyists. What about Emacs, for example? What about it? Emacs was
originally created at MIT, a trusted part of the US military research
establishment. Obviously, such facilities and their (suitably cleared)
employees will never be banned. The time has come to ban the reckless
tourists from the programming field, not legitimate university
researchers. It is true that Emacs, and similar tools have subsequently
been "enhanced" by "hackers". Generally, we have seen a pattern of
mind-boggling feature creep and software bloat as a result of this. Emacs,
for all its admirers, is the worst known example of this. In addition, all
of the "functionality" that has been added to Emacs, or other "tools"
touted by free software hackers such as Flex, Bison, gcc, etc. are
hacker's tools. That means that they are like lock picks or zip guns. They
have no inherent functionality that is not ultimately malevolent and
illegal in its purpose. This is not utility or service. This is
disservice. 

The reason that hobbyists work so feverishly hard on creating this kind of
tool is precisely because they are locked out of the world of the normal,
decent software engineer, where professional-grade IDEs, debuggers, and
similar tools are abundant. Those with ultimately criminal intent must
cobble together their own weapons. There are dozens, even hundreds of
these types of destructive programs in circulation, such as those
mentioned, as well as the notorious "Back Orifice", or the hacker
operating system, "Lunix". While a "hacker" could disingenuously and
spuriously argue that each one of these various illegal programs has some
redeeming social value, it is clear that taken as a whole, such "warez" do
not in fact benefit anyone except "hackers" and other criminals. 

Rather than waste any more time tediously demonstrating this fact for each
of these "hacker's" tools, it would be best to move on to the other canard
that "hackers" raise in defense of their "freedom" to "hack". And that
would be freedom itself. Is there a right to "hack"? Well, of course there
most certainly is not. Is there a right to build atomic bombs or breed
anthrax bacilli in one's back yard? Is there a right to spy on your
government and pass on that information to our foreign enemies, merely
because you have chosen espionage as a "hobby"? Perhaps you could claim
that your interest in espionage is driven by an innate curiosity, a desire
to discover new things and understand how the world works. And so what?
Such apologetics are amusing coming from children, but to hear an adult
make such excuses is not funny at all. It is merely sad. 

Few precocious adolescent "hackers" are capable of understanding why
responsible nations must ban "hacking", but as adults we can all recognize
that these apologetics for hobbyist "hacking" carry no weight at all, and
so we must do what is right. If you style yourself a "hacker" and you
really want to play around with dangerous toys, be it source code,
fissionable material, or biotoxins, then you have only one route open to
you: go to college and prove that you really have the mental horsepower to
cut the mustard, and prove also that you are a loyal patriot who can be
trusted with potentially deadly power. Then, and only then, will a decent
society trust you with the secrets of our most awesome technology. Those
too impatient to wait, too dull to get into a university, and too flaky to
get security clearance due to low character, drug abuse, and trafficking
with unsavory characters are simply out of luck. And it's a good thing
too. 

Is it practical to ban "hacking" now? 

Absolutely. There is no better time than now. As we have seen by the
recent mass murders by terrorists, computer technology is a mainstay of
criminals, and they rely most on such "free" tools as text editors and
military-grade encryption programs that "hackers" use simply because they
think it is cute to play with such power. But the rest of society has lost
patience with this childish diddling, and the civilized world has said
unequivocally that we want strong legal safeguards enacted to put an end
to "hacking" and terrorism. We most especially have no qualms about
banning activities like playing with explosives or creating software when
these so-called "hobbies" are restricted to a tiny fringe element who for
whatever reason gets no pleasure from healthy pastimes like fly fishing or
drinking alcohol at gentlemen's clubs. 

Put simply, normal folks are not going to let themselves get blown up
because a tiny minority of freaks like to "hack". If you aren't willing to
code for Uncle Sam, then don't code at all. 

Author's note: Since it is likely that many so-called g**ks or "hackers"
will read this article and will perhaps become angry about it, and then,
typically, lose control of their anger, I want to this opportunity to ask
them to please refrain from attacking Adequacy.org in retaliation. Though
you might disagree with an opinion that you read, that is no reason to
launch a denial of service attack against the medium. Please use your
reason and, if you feel strongly, engage in a polite dialogue, rather than
acting out your anger with illegal "hacking" attacks. Thank you for not
attacking this web site.

read comments (62) | write comment 
 
 





From gbroiles at parrhesia.com  Wed Dec 19 16:17:13 2001
From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:17:13 -0800
Subject: Talley and gbroiles offline taken offline by Speakeasy
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011219154037.03e0caf0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 1369 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 21:25:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:25:50 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim, Tim May Torn asunder.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219160551.00a77ca0@pop.useoz.com>


Sunder>>...you have to agree that you also have no problem with capitalism.
And
 >>an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of 
capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and 
by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined 
mainly by competition in a free market <<

I have no problem at all with the operation of capitalism as envisaged by 
our esteemed colleague,james dalton bell.
I have a very real and ongoing problem with anarcho-capitalism and Ill 
republish the hideous birth of that creature.

Subject: Tim May: Arch Thief
 >
 >http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu/6805/articles/crypto/cypherpunks/may-virtual-comm.html
 >
 >Tim May; Dishonest sneak thief,coward and liar.
 >
 > >>"This essential anarchy is much more common than many think.
 > Anarchy--the absence of a ruler telling one what to do--is common in many
 > walks of life: choice of books to read, movies to see, friends to
 > socialize with, etc. Anarchy does not mean complete freedom--one can,
 > after all, only read the books which someone has written and had
 > published--but it does mean freedom from external coercion. Anarchy as a
 > concept, though, has been tainted by other associations.
 > >>First, the "anarchy" here is not the anarchy of popular conception:
 > lawlessness, disorder, chaos, and "anarchy."<<
 >
 >Double trouble,ambivalence? sub-conscious guilt,nerves,sweaty
 >fingers?Probably just running off at the mouth.
 >
 > >>Nor is it the bomb-throwing anarchy of the 19th century "black"
 > anarchists, usually associated with Russia and labor movements.<<
 >
 >Gee,I wonder how it got so tainted.
 >
 >  >>Nor is it the "black flag" anarchy of anarcho-syndicalism and writers
 > such as Proudhon.<<
 >
 >Why ever not? The synergies and selling possibilities could be
 >amazing,what a way to bridge the gap between the present and
 >crypto-anarchy.We may see down the page why its "Nor".
 >
 > >>Rather, the anarchy being spoken of here is the anarchy of "absence of
 > government" (literally, "an arch," without a chief or head).<<
 >
 >Nowt to do with Proudon and some bomb throwing russians.Trust me,Im Tim
 >May.Master thief.
 >
 > >>This is the same sense of anarchy used in "anarchocapitalism," the
 > libertarian free market ideology which promotes voluntary, uncoerced
 > economic transactions.<<
 >
 >Grab a snatch and hold it.
 >
 >  [6] I devised the term crypto anarchy as a pun on crypto, meaning
 > "hidden," on the use of "crypto" in combination with political views (as
 > in Gore Vidal's famous charge to William F. Buckley: "You crypto 
fascist!"),<<
 >
 >Freudian slip,Tim,understandable though,under the circumstances.You crypto
 >fascist.
 >
 > >>and of course because the technology of crypto makes this form of
 > anarchy possible.<<
 >
 >And the alteration of the meaning of words make grand theft
 >anarchy,possible.Also the original libertarian socialist form possible.The
 >form of anarchy Tim May will attempt to murder at any opportunity as a
 >witness to his crime.
 >
 >  >>The first presentation of this was in a 1988 "Manifesto," whimsically
 > patterned after another famous manifesto.<<
 >
 >By the notorious petty bourgeois authoritarian wrecker of the 1st
 >International.Whimsical,Tim and telling.
 >
 > >>[7] Perhaps a more popularly understandable term, such as "cyber
 > liberty," might have some advantages, but crypto anarchy has its own
 > charm, I think.<<
 >
 >Cyber liberty and Im outta here,cant stand the stench.
 >It takes a word made their own by people willing to die for it and
 >martyred for it many times in Tims own country and attempts to leech off
 >it.Audacious thievery and knavery on scale ranking May with
 >Goebbals.Charming as Newspeak.
 >
 > >>And anarchy in this sense does not mean local hierarchies don't exist,
 > nor does it mean that no rulers exist. Groups outside the direct control
 > of local governmental authorities may still have leaders, rulers, club
 > presidents, elected bodies, etc. Many will not, though.<<
 >
 >Whoopty doo.Tim invents the anarchist wheel.
 >
 > >>Politically, virtual communities outside the scope of local
 > governmental control may present problems of law enforcement and tax
 > collection. (Some of us like this aspect.) Avoidance of coerced
 > transactions can mean avoidance of taxes, avoidance of laws saying who
 > one can sell to and who one can't, and so forth. It is likely that many
 > will be >>unhappy that some are using cryptography to avoid laws designed
 > to control behavior.<<
 >
 >I like the word anarchy so Im going to steal it from its rightful
 >owners,no one will catch me,Im invisible!
 >
 > >>National borders are becoming more transparent than ever to data. A
 > flood of bits crosses the borders of most developed countries--phone
 > lines, cables, fibers, satellite up/downlinks, and millions of diskettes,
 > tapes, CDs, etc. >Stopping data at the borders is less than hopeless.<<
 >
 >Stealing anarchy and loading it up with potted ayn randian,heinleinian
 >lead weight is whats hopeless,mate.
 >
 > >>Finally, the ability to move data around the world at will, the ability
 > to communicate to remote sites at will, means that a kind of "regulatory
 > arbitrage" can be used to avoid legal roadblocks. For example, remailing
 > into the U.S. from a site in the Netherlands...whose laws apply? (If one
 > thinks that U.S. laws should apply to sites in the Netherlands, does
 > Iraqi law apply in the U.S.? And so on.)<<
 >
 >Drone on and on and on all you want,your not going to get far with a
 >rebadged knock off of "anarchy"How do YOU sleep?
 >
 > >>This regulatory arbitrage is also useful for avoiding the welter of
 > laws and regulations which operations in one country may face, including
 > the "deep pockets" lawsuits so many in the U.S. face. Moving operations
 > on the Net outside a >>litigious jurisdiction is one step to reduce this
 > business liability. Like Swiss banks, but different.<<
 >
 >Money,money,money must be funny...in a rich mans dreams.Still theres hope
 >because later in conclusions Tim says
 >..."extremely dark things like anonymous markets for killings" may be
 >possible.We live in hope,Tim,hope and ANARCHY!

Tim your lime pit is dug,the contracts are out.We don't just amputate limbs.




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 13:46:56 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:46:56 -0500 (est)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Warped indeed.  Maybe inChoate' capitalism means that.  As per
Merriam-Webster's, in this dimention and in the English language it means
the following:

Main Entry:	cap7i7tal7ism 
Pronunciation:	'ka-p&-t&l-"iz-&m, 'kap-t&l-, British also k&-'pi-t&l-
Function:	noun
Date:	1877
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of
capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and
by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined
mainly by competition in a free market

(As cut and pasted from www.m-w.com)



Note the words "private" and "ownership" and "goods" which are not
possible in a fascist, communist, or socialist state.

Note the lack of the words "greed" or "belief that $$$ is the primary goal
in life" or "he who collects the most is the best."

All it claims to be is a system that allows private/corporate ownership of
goods where decisions are made by private (versus government) decision and
of course "free market."


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > Since capitalism is a meritocracy (Those who work eat;
> 
> That is certainly a good definition of 'commerce', it is not accurate for
> 'capitalism'. Capitalism represents the belief that $$$ is the primary
> goal in life. That he who collects the most is the best. That all things
> can be reduced to a 'price'.
> 
> It is a faulty assumption and a warped view of humanity. As are yours.
> 
> Finis.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 13:50:06 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:50:06 -0500 (est)
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


If I'd find a way to make money off your antics I would.  Sadly, I believe
that I'm part of that minority which find your - shall I say, "alternate
view point of reality" really entertaining, and tweaking you to produce
more of it funny.  Most people that I'm aware of find it somewhat boring
and unentertaining, so I'm afraid we wouldn't make a very good road
show...

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > Ok, show of hands....
> > 
> > Who here claims to be a member of CACL?
> > 
> > Ok, of those who claim to be members of CACL's, who claims to be a
> > self-appointed CACL genius?
> > 
> > Tim?  Declan?  Anyone?
> 
> You should quit your day job and take this on the road.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From rabbi at quickie.net  Wed Dec 19 16:51:09 2001
From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:51:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: 


Dear Cypherpunks and other unsavory characters,

I was recapping for some other remops a conversation that Tim sparked at
the last cypherpunks meeting regarding pay-per-use remailers, and I had
some additional thoughts. I'm not an expert on digital cash, so please
pardon me if I make any obvious errors. I welcome criticism of these ideas
and explanations as to why they won't work as well as tips for
improvement.

I've been thinking about how to create pay-per-use remailers for some
time. The reasons for needing a remailer payment system are obvious: aside
from handling spamming and flooding, it would encourage more people to run
remailers. If a remailer operator can expect to make money off of a
remailer, or at least recoup his losses, he's more likely to do so.
(Discussion of how liability changes when money is involved is for a
different time.)

"Digital cash" in the traditional sense isn't necessary for a pay-per-use
remailer system. Like MojoNation, I am going to refer to the digital cash
coins as something that has no monetary value in the traditional sense.
Tim pointed out at the last meeting that what we think of as "money" has
no inherent value. If you think of the remailer digital cash coins as
tokens with a very specific purpose, a lot of the objections to using
digital cash disappear.

Additionally, I am assuming that there would be a suitable digital cash
algorithm that could be used for these purposes. I am aware that there are
algorithms similar to Chaum's in existence, but my level of knowledge
isn't sufficient to know if they would work for these purposes. In any
event, the Chaum patents expire soon enough. In this scheme, while the
anonymity of the token buyer is essential, neither the bank nor the seller
will have their anonymity protected.


The system would work as follows, from the point of view of the user:

The user would purchase remailer tokens (digital cash) from a token vendor
(the bank). This is an exchange similar to car wash tokens or
TicketMaster[tm], where the seller receives "real cash" and the buyer
receives a tangible promise of a future service. The tokens could be
purchased online using PayPal, credit cards, etc. (Yes, this means the
number of paying remailer customers must be large enough to constitute a
crowd.)

The user than fires up his remailer client, and each remailer has pricing
and token service information associated with its key and reliability
stats. (In this system, multiple token vendors could exist, and remailers
could be their own vendors. For simplicity's sake, I am going to assume
that all remailers in this user's client accept the same ticket vendor's
tokens.)

Each remailer sets a price (i.e., number of tokens) for its use. Remailers
could even charge a different amount depending on where in the chain it
fell, with exit hop services costing more than beginning/middle chain
positions. The user would select his chain based on the reliability stats
and the pricing information for each remailer. The client would tally the
cost, and when the user approved, it would remove tokens from the user's
"purse" and attach them to the outgoing message, interwoven in the various
layers of encryption in the message.

Now, from the remailer's point of view:

A message is received, and the encryption stripped off. Inside is a
remailer token, which the remailer redeems with the token vendor after
ensuring that the token covered the price of the message (accumulating a
balance in his account, which can then be exchanged for cash by the
remop.) The message is then delivered to the next hop, and so forth.


I came up with this idea after an interesting conversation with Bram Cohen
one night, and then after researching it realized that others had said
basically the same thing. I'm interested in hearing problems with the
above proposal, but for now I am going to assume it is sound. I have a
further enhancement to this system that I just now realized might be
possible, and this is what I'm really interested in discussing.

One of the big problems with remailers currently is reliability. We can
attempt to make remailer software more stable, place remailers on better,
faster systems, add message redundancy to the protocol, etc., and we still
don't eliminate the major flaw receipt verification. There is no way to
report back to a message sender that a message did not make delivery, so
when something does go wrong, the end user rarely has any idea why. Hal
Finney discussed this, and a possible solution to the problem, here:
http://nymip.velvet.com/pipermail/nymip-res-group/2001-August/000146.html

If a system as I have described above were to be implemented, we could
solve this problem (as well as the inevitable problems of remailers
cheating and collecting payment without delivering mail, and the problem
of double-spending) without having to reveal any useful information to an
attacker who doesn't already have ability to observe the entire mix
network.

If the remailer client were to keep track of which tokens were paid to
which remailer, the user could determine where in a chain message delivery
failed, or if the message exited the last hop (not exactly the same as if
it was delivered, but close. The last remailer could cheat, or the
recipient's mail server could fail. There's ways to improve this, though.)

After the remailer redeems the token with the token vendor, the token
vendor publishes the token. No one but the user and the remailer know
which message a given token was linked to, so information leakage is
minimized. The user can query the token vendor for the most recent token
redemptions, and will be able to determine where his message either is
currently waiting in the chain, or where it died.

(This isn't exact either. Failure, in this case, is pinpointed at the link
between two remailers, rather than at a given remailer. If a user queried
the bank and discovered that, out of a 5 remailer chain, remailers A, B,
and C redeemed the tokens but D did not, this either means C is cheating,
C is broken on sending, or D is broken on receiving. Further tests would
be necessary to determine the exact nature of the failure.)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Reasons why the payment system
would not work? Reasons why the verification system would not work?
Improvements to either system? Thoughts on the specifics of the digital
cash algorithms needed?



--Len.




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec 19 13:53:37 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:53:37 -0500 (est)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <20011219233152.GA29569@rearviewmirror.org>
Message-ID: 


But you must admit it's funny watching him stumble in new and
unprecedented ways. :)  I can't resist it either.  Aw hell, it beats
watching the comedy channel and he's at least twice as funny...

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Matt Beland wrote:

> It's not worth the effort. It's not worth the effort. It won't make a
> damn bit of difference.
> 
> Oh, fuckit.

ROTFL! :)




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 21:55:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:55:27 +1100
Subject: Wired on e-gold, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219164020.00a74b20@pop.useoz.com>


Ive seen a good story somewhere on the e-dinar,if it was protected with 
world wide AP/PGP served by huge remailing networks it could be the 
one.Nomen RUN! The end is nigh.
The other story this year (its not 2002 yet numbnuts) to raise a smile was 
the keystone Kops raid by the SS.Easy to see what freaks them 
out...Everyfuckinthing! Suckers! If anyone in that goon squads got any 
sense they'll put some lead in prime rib.
You dont want to catch mad cow disease do 
you?KILLTHEPRESIDENTINUNTRACABLEENCRYPTIONITSINVISIBLE.
My superintelligent rats in the W/house tell me they are getting fat on 
pork cracklings and gingerbread and its dead boring after El Bubba.

 >>Hypocrisy isn't pretty. ~Faustine.

God you must be one butt ugly Hoe.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 14:57:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:57:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Since capitalism is a meritocracy (Those who work eat;

That is certainly a good definition of 'commerce', it is not accurate for
'capitalism'. Capitalism represents the belief that $$$ is the primary
goal in life. That he who collects the most is the best. That all things
can be reduced to a 'price'.

It is a faulty assumption and a warped view of humanity. As are yours.

Finis.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 15:00:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:00:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Ok, show of hands....
> 
> Who here claims to be a member of CACL?
> 
> Ok, of those who claim to be members of CACL's, who claims to be a
> self-appointed CACL genius?
> 
> Tim?  Declan?  Anyone?

You should quit your day job and take this on the road.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 22:12:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:12:36 +1100
Subject: Matthew Gaylor has it ass backward
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219171052.00a740d0@pop.useoz.com>


http://ri.xu.org/arbalest/alembic2c.html

"The Libertarian as Conservative." To me this is so obvious that I am hard 
put to find something to say to people who still think libertarianism has 
something to do with liberty. A libertarian is just a Republican who takes 
drugs. I'd have preferred a more controversial topic like "The Myth of the 
Penile Orgasm." But since my attendance here is subsidized by the esteemed 
distributor of a veritable reference library on mayhem and dirty tricks, I 
can't just take the conch and go rogue. I will indeed mutilate the sacred 
cow which is libertarianism, as ordered, but I'll administer a few hard 
lefts to the right in my own way. And I don't mean the easy way. I could 
just point to the laissez-faire Trilateralism of the Libertarian Party, 
then leave and go look for a party. It doesn't take long to say that if you 
fight fire with fire, you'll get burned.

If that were all I came up with, somebody would up and say that the LP has 
lapsed from the libertarian faith, just as Christians have in- sisted that 
their behavior over the last 1900 years or so shouldn't be held against 
Christianity. There are Libertarians who try to retrieve libertarianism 
from the Libertarian Party just as there are Christians who try to reclaim 
Christianity from Christendom and communists (I've tried to myself) who try 
to save Communism from the Communist parties and states. They (and I) meant 
well but we lost. Libertarianism is party-archist fringe-rightism just as 
socialism is what Eastern European dissidents call "real socialism," i.e., 
the real-life state-socialism of queues, quotas, corruption and coercion. 
But I choose not to knock down this libertarian strawman-qua-man who's 
blowing over anyway. A wing of the Reaganist Right has obviously 
appropriated, with suspect selectivity, such libertarian themes as 
deregulation and voluntarism. Ideologues indignate that Reagan has 
travestied their principles. Tough sh7t! I notice that it's their 
principles, not mine, that he found suitable to travesty. This kind of 
quarrel doesn't interest me. My reasons for regarding libertarianism as 
conservative run deeper than that.

My target is what Libertarians have in common  with each other, and with 
their ostensible enemies. Libertarians serve the state all the better 
because they declaim against it. At bottom, they want what it wants. But 
you can't want what the state wants without wanting the state, for what the 
state wants is the conditions in which it flourish- es. My (unfriendly) 
approach to modern society is to regard it as an integrated totality. Silly 
doctrinaire theories which regard the state as a parasitic excrescence on 
society cannot explain its centuries-long persistence, its ongoing 
encroachment upon what was previously market terrain, or its acceptance by 
the overwhelming majority of people including its demonstrable victims.

A far more plausible theory is that the state and (at least) this form of 
society have a symbiotic (however sordid) interdependence, that the state 
and such institutions as the market and the nuclear family are, in several 
ways, modes of hierarchy and control. Their articulation is not always 
harmonious but they share a common interest in consigning their conflicts 
to elite or expert resolution. To demonize state authoritarianism while 
ignoring identical albeit contract-consecrated subservient arrangements in 
the large-scale corporations which control the world economy is fetishism 
at its worst. And yet (to quote the most vociferous of radical 
Libertarians, Professor Murray Rothbard) there is nothing un-libertarian 
about "organization, hierarchy, wage-work, granting of funds by libertarian 
millionaires, and a libertarian party." Indeed. That is why libertarianism 
is just conservatism with a rationalist/positivist veneer.

Libertarians render a service to the state which only they can provide. For 
all their complaints about its illicit extensions they concede, in their 
lucid moments, that the state rules far more by consent than by coercion  
which is to say, on present-state "libertarian" terms the state doesn't 
rule at all, it merely carries out the tacit or explicit terms of its 
contracts. If it seems contradictory to say that coercion is consensual, 
the contradiction is in the world, not in the expression, and can't 
adequately be rendered except by dialectical discourse. One-dimensional 
syllogistics can't do justice to a world largely lacking in the virtue. If 
your language lacks poetry and paradox, it's unequal to the task of 
accounting for actuality. Otherwise anything radically new is literally 
unspeakable. The scholastic "A = A" logic created by the Catholic Church 
which the Libertarians inherited, unquestioned, from the Randites is just 
as constrictively conservative as the Newspeak of Orwell's 1984.

The state commands, for the most part, only because it commands popular 
support. It is (and should be) an embarrassment to Libertarians that the 
state rules with mass support  including, for all practical purposes, theirs.

Libertarians reinforce acquiescent attitudes by diverting discontents who 
are generalized (or tending that way) and focusing them on particular 
features and functions of the state which they are the first to insist are 
expendable! Thus they turn potential revolutionaries into repairmen. 
Constructive criticism is really the subtlest sort of praise. If the 
Libertarians succeed in relieving the state of its exiguous activities, 
they just might be its salvation. No longer will reverence for authority be 
eroded by the prevalent official ineptitude. The more the state does, the 
more it does badly. Surely one reason for the common man's aversion to 
Communism is his reluctance to see the entire economy run like the Post 
Office. The state tries to turn its soldiers and policemen into objects of 
veneration and respect, but uniforms lose a lot of their mystique when you 
see them on park rangers and garbage- men.

The ideals and institutions of authority tend to cluster together, both 
subjectively and objectively. You may recall Edward Gibbon's remark about 
the eternal alliance of Throne and Altar. Disaffection from received dogmas 
has a tendency to spread. If there is any future for freedom, it depends on 
this. Unless and until alienation recognizes itself, all the guns the 
Libertarians cherish will be useless against the state.

You might object that what I've said may apply to the minarchist majority 
of Libertarians, but not to the self-styled anarchists among them. To my 
mind a right-wing anarchist is just a minarchist who'd abolish the state to 
his own satisfaction by calling it something else. But this incestuous 
family squabble is no affair of mine. Both camps call for partial or 
complete privitization of state functions but neither questions the 
functions themselves. They don't denounce what the state does, they just 
object to who's doing it. This is why the people most victimized by the 
state display the least interest in libertarianism. Those on the receiving 
end of coercion don't quibble over their coercers' credentials. If you 
can't pay or don't want to, you don't much care if your deprivation is 
called larceny or taxation or restitution or rent. If you like to control 
your own time, you distinguish employment from enslavement only in degree 
and duration. An ideology which outdoes all others (with the possible 
exception of Marxism) in its exaltation of the work ethic can only be a 
brake on anti-authoritarian orientations, even if it does make the trains 
run on time.

My second argument, related to the first, is that the libertarian phobia as 
to the state reflects and reproduces a profound misunderstanding of the 
operative forces which make for social control in the modern world. If  
and this is a big "if," especially where bourgeois Libertarians are 
concerned  what you want is to maximize individual autonomy, then it is 
quite clear that the state is the least of the phenomena which stand in 
your way.

Imagine that you are a Martian anthropologist specializing in Terran 
studies and equipped with the finest telescopes and video equipment. You 
have not yet deciphered any Terran language and so you can only record what 
earthlings do, not their shared misconceptions as to what they're doing and 
why. However, you can gauge roughly when they're doing what they want and 
when they're doing something else.

Your first important discovery is that earthlings devote nearly all their 
time to unwelcome activities. The only important exception is a dwindling 
set of hunter- gatherer groups unperturbed by governments, churches and 
schools who devote some four hours a day to subsistence activities which so 
closely resemble the leisure activities of the privileged classes in 
industrial capitalist countries that you are uncertain whether to describe 
what they do as work or play. But the state and the market are eradicating 
these holdouts and you very properly concentrate on the almost 
all-inclusive world-system which, for all its evident internal antagonisms 
as epitomized in war, is much the same everywhere. The Terran young, you 
further observe, are almost wholly subject to the impositions of the family 
and the school, sometimes seconded by the church and occasionally the 
state. The adults often assemble in families too, but the place where they 
pass the most time and submit to the closest control is at work. Thus, 
without even entering into the question of the world economy's ultimate 
dictation of everybody's productive activity, it's apparent that the source 
of the greatest direct duress experienced by the ordinary adult is not the 
state but rather the business that employs him. Your foreman or supervisor 
gives you more "or-else" orders in a week than the police do in a decade.

If one looks at the world without prejudice but with an eye to maximizing 
freedom, the major coercive institution is not the state, it's work. 
Libertarians who with a straight face call for the abolition of the state 
nonetheless look on anti-work attitudes with horror. The idea of abolishing 
work is, of course, an affront to common sense. But then so is the idea of 
abolishing the state. If a referendum were held among Libertarians which 
posed as options the abolition of work with retention of the state, or 
abolition of the state with retention of work, does anyone doubt the outcome?

Libertarians are into linear reasoning and quantitative analysis. If they 
applied these methods to test their own reasoning they'd be in for a shock. 
That's the point of my Martian thought experiment. This is not to say that 
the state isn't just as unsavory as the Libertarians say it is. But it does 
suggest that the state is important, not so much for the direct duress it 
inflicts on convicts and conscripts, for instance, as for its indirect 
back-up of employers who regiment employees, shopkeepers who arrest 
shoplifters, and parents who paternalize children. In these classrooms, the 
lesson of submission is learned. Of course, there are always a few freaks 
like anarcho-capitalists or Catholic anarchists, but they're just 
exceptions to the rule of rule.

Unlike side issues such as unemployment, unions, and minimum-wage laws, the 
subject of work itself is almost entirely absent from libertarian 
literature. Most of what little there is consists of Randite rantings 
against parasites, barely distinguishable from the invective inflicted on 
dissidents by the Soviet press, and Sunday-school platitudinizing that 
there is no free lunch  this from fat cats who have usually ingested a lot 
of them. In 1980, a rare exception appeared in a book review published in 
the Libertarian Review by Professor John Hospers, the Libertarian Party 
elder state's-man who flunked out of the Electoral College in 1972. Here 
was a spirited defense of work by a college professor who didn't have to do 
any. To demonstrate that his arguments were thoroughly conservative, it is 
enough to show that they agreed in all essentials with Marxism-Leninism.

Hospers thought he could justify wage-labor, factory discipline and 
hierarchic management by noting that they're imposed in Leninist regimes as 
well as under capitalism. Would he accept the same argument for the 
necessity of repressive sex and drug laws? Like other Libertarians, Hospers 
is uneasy  hence his gratuitous red-baiting  because libertarianism and 
Leninism are as different as Coke and Pepsi when it comes to consecrating 
class society and the source of its power, work. Only upon the firm 
foundation of factory fascism and office oligarchy do Libertarians and 
Leninists dare to debate the trivial issues dividing them. Toss in the 
mainstream conservatives who feel just the same and we end up with a 
veritable trilateralism of pro-work ideology seasoned to taste.

Hospers, who never has to, sees nothing demeaning in taking orders from 
bosses, for "how else could a large scale factory be organized?" In other 
words, "wanting to abolish authority in large-scale industry is tantamount 
to wanting to abolish industry itself." Hospers again? No, Frederick 
Engels! Marx agreed: "Go and run one of the Barcelona factories without 
direction, that is to say, without authority!" (Which is just what the 
Catalan workers did in 1936, while their anarcho- syndicalist leaders 
temporized and cut deals with the government.) "Someone," says Hospers, 
"has to make decisions and" -- here's the kicker -- "someone _else_ has to 
implement them." Why? His precursor Lenin likewise endorsed "individual 
dictatorial powers" to assure "absolute and strict unity of will. But how 
can strict unity of will be ensured? By thousands subordinating their will 
to the will of one." What's needed to make industrialism work is "iron 
discipline while at work, with unquestioning obedience to the will of a 
single person, the soviet leader, while at work." Arbeit macht frei!

Some people giving orders and others obeying them: this is the essence of 
servitude. Of course, as Hospers smugly observes, "one can at least change 
jobs," but you can't avoid having a job  just as under statism one can at 
least change nationalities but you can't avoid subjection to one 
nation-state or another. But freedom means more than the right to change 
masters.

Hospers and other Libertarians are wrong to assume, with Manchester 
industrialist Engels, that technology imposes its division of labor 
"independent of social organization." Rather, the factory is an instrument 
of social control, the most effective ever devised to enforce the class 
chasm between the few who "make decisions" and the many who "implement 
them." Industrial technology is much more the product than the source of 
workplace totalitarianism. Thus the revolt against work  reflected in 
absenteeism, sabotage, turnover, embezzlement, wildcat strikes, and 
goldbricking  has far more liberatory promise than the machinations of 
"libertarian" politicos and propagandists.

Most work serves the predatory purposes of commerce and coercion and can be 
abolished outright. The rest can be automated away and/or transformed  by 
the experts, the workers who do it  into creative, playlike pastimes whose 
variety and conviviality will make extrinsic inducements like the 
capitalist carrot and the Communist stick equally obsolete. In the 
hopefully impending meta-industrial revolution, libertarian communists 
revolting against work will settle accounts with "Libertarians" and 
"Communists" working against revolt. And then we can go for the gusto!

Even if you think everything I've said about work, such as the possibility 
of its abolition, is visionary nonsense, the anti-liberty implications of 
its prevalence would still hold good. The time of your life is the one 
commodity you can sell but never buy back. Murray Rothbard thinks 
egalitarianism is a revolt against nature, but his day is 24 hours long, 
just like everybody else's. If you spend most of your waking life taking 
orders or kissing ass, if you get habituated to hierarchy, you will become 
passive-aggressive, sado-masochistic, servile and stupefied, and you will 
carry that load into every aspect of the balance of your life. Incapable of 
living a life of liberty, you'll settle for one of its ideological 
representations, like libertarianism. You can't treat values like workers, 
hiring and firing them at will and assigning each a place in an imposed 
division of labor. The taste for freedom and pleasure can't be 
compartmentalized.

Libertarians complain that the state is parasitic, an excrescence on 
society. They think it's like a tumor you could cut out, leaving the 
patient just as he was, only healthier. They've been mystified by their own 
metaphors. Like the market, the state is an activity, not an entity. The 
only way to abolish the state is to change the way of life it forms a part 
of. That way of life, if you call that living, revolves around work and 
takes in bureaucracy, moralism, schooling, money, and more. Libertarians 
are conservatives because they avowedly want to maintain most of this mess 
and so unwittingly perpetuate the rest of the racket. But they're bad 
conservatives because they've forgotten the reality of institutional and 
ideological interconnection which was the original insight of the 
historical conservatives. Entirely out of touch with the real currents of 
contemporary resistance, they denounce practical opposition to the system 
as "nihilism," "Luddism," and other big words they don't understand. A 
glance at the world confirms that their utopian capitalism just can't 
compete with the state. With enemies like Libertarians, the state doesn't 
need friends.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 15:33:03 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:33:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: ok, you win... please help
In-Reply-To: <20011219201252.10531.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 





His lists are closed. This means that somebody on his list is forwarding
the emails or else they've hacked the security at Yahoo. There are NO
*@yahoogroups.com or *@yahoo.com subscriptions through SSZ currently.
There should be no subscription of *@ssz.com to any *@yahoo.com address
either (and my logs show no evidence of receipt of traffic either way).

I've explained to this guy he is being spoofed and he just don't get it.


On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, The Silence Booking wrote:

> Ok, i am not gonna reply with a mean reply. I hope you
> can understand what is going on. Let me please
> explain, and mabey you can help me.
> 
> I have four emails I use to book bands for my
> business, these are the emails:
> 
> TheSilentBooking at yahoo.com
> TheSilentmusic at Yahoo.com
> TheSilenceKills at yahoo.com
> TheArmyOfSilence at yahoo.com
> 
> Now, as of about a week ago, mabey less, i started to
> recieve stuff from CDR: Mailing list. Now, again, i
> woulnt have a problem with you sending me mabey a
> mailer aday, but, i am getting over 60 emails in my
> inbox. Just this morning, i had 132 emails in this
> email alone, which overloaded my yahoo account. I have
> looked at the Unscribing methods, and on my fathers
> grave I have. I have tried everything to be removed.I
> get replied with "Unscribe No Reconized". Now, for
> one, i just want this to please stop. I dont know how
> i got on her, mabey someone is playing a joke on me, I
> dont know, and they added me? but, again, all my
> emails are getting these CDR: replies. What can i do
> to have this stop, Again , i have tried what you said
> and its not working. I dont want any trouble from you,
> honestly, i just want to get back to business. My
> emails is the only way i communicate over the country
> with clubs and bookers and bands. If you can give me
> step my step instruction, that would help. mabey i am
> a moron, but, i do need some help here.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Steve Juliano
> 
> =====
> MSM Management
> 5713 Harco St.
> Long Beach, CA 90808
> Office: (213) 760-2258
> Http://www.thesilencemusic.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 




From johngorenfeld at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 19 17:35:12 2001
From: johngorenfeld at yahoo.com (John Gorenfeld)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:35:12 -0800
Subject: Randy Hoffman's spam e-mail
Message-ID: <0VR83ED3ZB9SRVQHF2V5Z65US71LI74.3c214050@gornfeild>


Hi, this is John Gorenfeld, reporter from the Thousand Oaks Weekly Acorn. I read your post about BeOutdoors.com and spam e-mail. Since Hoffman is running for office, it was 
interesting to read he was allegedly a spammer. Can you tell me more about this?

John





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 22:35:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:35:50 +1100
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219172200.00a774f0@pop.useoz.com>


Extract...>>attempted suicide punishable by death. There are other examples 
of similar, but not as ludicrous, legal situations where the only person 
being impacted is the person acting, but it's still illegal. Joe

If the point is to minimize coercion  and maximize freedom to play loud 
music and off yrself in any number of ways I highly ricomend *open source* 
AP."Making suicide pay since the ides of march 2001."

Choate,ex. >>...very few follow the CACL philosophy therefore it must not 
be 'true'). <<

Its disgustingly *true* here and at wired,CATO,etc.
Its worth staking to an antsnest and checking on occasionally.)




From Gilles.Gravier at Sun.com  Wed Dec 19 09:04:45 2001
From: Gilles.Gravier at Sun.com (Gilles Gravier)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:04:45 +0100
Subject: Encrypted Distributed Filesystem With Linux?
References: 
Message-ID: <3C20C8AC.35481EFB@Sun.com>

Hi!

http://www.cyber-ark.com/ ?

Gilles.

Jei wrote:
> 
> With over > 2GB in size and on 2.4 Linux kernels?
> 
> Say, an 80gb filesystem image that is encrypted with XXX over
> a loop device YYY to a filesystem image that resides on ZZZ.
> 
> Is there any way to do this or something similar to it?
> 
> I browsed the net but PPDD + CODA doesn't quite seem to get me there.
> Neither does SFS or CFS or TCFS or any of the other alternatives I found.
> 
> The freenet clones seem all too insecure and freenet is
> just a piece of java code. Not suitable for any *real* use.
> 
> All links and suggestions are very welcome..
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Cryptography Mailing List
> Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com

-- 
Gilles Gravier  -  Platform Infrastructure - SDN  -  EMEA
Email: Gilles.Gravier at Sun.com            Sun Microsystems
Phone: +41 22 7077856                 2 rue de Jargonnant
Fax: +41 86 0794351051                     CH-1207 Geneva
PGP Key ID: 0xF5F60C45                        Switzerland
My Current Location is:   N:046°12'03.8" - E:006°09'31.9"
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From johngorenfeld at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 19 18:40:53 2001
From: johngorenfeld at yahoo.com (John Gorenfeld)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:40:53 -0800
Subject: Trying to get in touch with BeOutdoors.com employee
Message-ID: 


Hi, I'm a reporter with a newspaper in Thousand Oaks, California. I was wondering whether anyone knew how to get in touch with "SeaChelle," who posted on here a year ago 
claiming to know the secret of the BeOutdoors.com spam.

Thanks.

John





From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 19 08:42:43 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:42:43 +0200
Subject: Steal This Essay 1: Content Is a Pure Public Good
References: <6E6CB764-F459-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <013f01c188ac$2e4f35a0$5600a8c0@mark>


From: "Tim May" 

> This guy's essay is really good. And it only took him a few minutes!

Ok, WHAT essay? You just quoted a few lines, attributed them to Tim May
(hello???), and added an URL to a site "currently in construction".

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 18 23:44:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:44:13 +1100
Subject: Questions for the list.RE.Quantum Encryption.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219183913.00a30eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 From D.McCullogh.

As I understand it, Weyl's original gauge theory allowed for the
possibility that length scale can change from point to point.

Has there been any modern work on Weyl's theory? In particular,
is it possible to develop a quantum version? Another question:
is it possible that something interesting (perhaps GR) could
result from Weyl's theory through spontaneous symmetry breaking?

What's interesting about Weyl's theory is that classically
(ignoring quantum mechanics) there is no good reason for physics
to have a preferred length scale. What sets the length scale for
material objects seems to be the Bohr radius,

     r_b = hbar^2/(m e^2)

So that makes me think that perhaps quantum corrections to Weyl's
theory might break his gauge symmetry.
END
Could be on to something here D. Especially ignoring quantum mechanics! 
What do youse all think?




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 19 00:27:04 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:27:04 +1100
Subject: MS DRM OS Begets SSSCA 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219191229.00a6beb0@pop.useoz.com>


jya>>I think Mike is trying to describe the worst case scenario to arouse 
opposition. Bear in mind that the Content Faction (and maybe the Tech 
Faction) want to control the world, not just the US. All countries are 
targets for SSSCA and DMCA through copyright treaties and other control 
regimes.<<

Like the WTO and NWO? Fingerprint the planet,pascal? Man the barricades! 
BYO gasmask and molotovs.

 >>Just a few days ago the last country needed to enforce the WIPO 
Copyright Treaty signed on. WIPO is the global version of DMCA. And the 
Hague Convention is meeting shortly to set up the legal framework to 
enforce the various global treaties on protecting intellectual property. 
Sure, there will continue to be gray and black markets in software but 
criminalization of circumvention devices will put some youngsters (and 
oldsters) in jail, as we see looming from the recent warez raids.<<

I suspect they were a warmup for the big palmer raids looming for all 
anarchists,especially crypto-anarchists.AP NOW!

 >>The MPAA and co-conspirators are dirty fighters and nobody should expect 
to merely ignore them, thinking that loosening of crypto controls is a 
model. They know that precedent and are determined to do what governments 
could not. <<

Well the anarcho-capitalists here say,thats OK,as long as its not the 
STATE! Hey dont arrest me,Im a capitalist!

 >>Question is, as ever, what about the programmers within the factions who 
are needed to carry out the wishes of the bosses. In this, crypto could be 
a bellweather, for showing how the technicians learned to outwit the 
others. But are technical folks more susceptible these days to bribery of 
swell life styles than the crypto-rebels were? Or better, are there 
well-endowed, smarter than most, Factioners who do not want to be part of 
hegemonic putridity?<<

Dont form a union,timmy doesnt like unions,dont go outside,thats 
undignified.stay home rub oil on your gunbarrel and whinge.All traitors 
should be shot.

 >>We'll see what the Factions offer the liberators to keep
them hard at work, happy to be protected intellectual property
slaves. None of whom would waste a second here
except to pick up intelligence for blowing upholes.

Indeed.The cypherpunks may be like the blacks in the war of independence 
were.FREEDOM!




From bxain at redneck.gacracker.org  Wed Dec 19 11:35:43 2001
From: bxain at redneck.gacracker.org (Ben Xain)
Date: 19 Dec 2001 19:35:43 -0000
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011219193543.12509.qmail@gacracker.org>


On 19 December 2001, Peter Trei wrote:
>> Ben Xain[SMTP:bxain at redneck.gacracker.org]
>> In fact, spammers currently *do* send mail encrypted to the remailers'
>> keys.  It's a pain in the ass trying to filter the damn stuff out.
>First I've heard that. Frankly, I'm suprised. 
>
>One solution, which I've long advocated, is for the remailer to drop mail
>which has an unencrypted body after it's applied it's decryption key. 
>
>Provided this is an announced policy, substantially increases the 
>protection of the mail and the remop. It does mean that only people
>capable of using encryption can receive mail via the remailer, but
>that's probably a *good* thing.

I don't think that's necessarily a good idea.  It would eliminate or
reduce the anonymous remailer's usefulness for posting to newsgroups and
mailing lists.

Add to that the concept of some anonymous remailer users being
informants or corporate whistle-blowers, who will often be contacting
law enforcement or media officials and won't have access to public keys
for encryption.

Instead, it would be a good idea for remailers to find some other means
of filtering spam.  There are some great tools out there that might be
useful for this, such as nilsimsa.

Ben Xain
bxain at redneck.gacracker.org




From matt at rearviewmirror.org  Wed Dec 19 19:37:56 2001
From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:37:56 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <200112200343.VAA00680@einstein.ssz.com>

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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Dec 19 19:05:25 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:05:25 -0700
Subject: MS DRM OS
Message-ID: <3C215575.9C0C9F0D@lsil.com>


 Ralph Wallis  wrote :
>On Wednesday, 19 Dec 2001 at 00:38, Graham Lally 
wrote:
>> Ralph Wallis wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, 17 Dec 2001 at 07:58, Michael Motyka 
wrote:
>> >
>> >>Could someone who knows more than I do explain to me why this MS
"IP" is
>> >>anything other than making the owner of a PC unable to have root
access
>> >>to their own hardware/OS? If so it seems to be an idea unworthy of
>> >>protection from lawyers and men with guns.
>> >>
>> >
>> > A more correct analogy is with speed limiters on cars.
>>
>>
>> On your own roads. And the car maker tells you where you can go to.
And
>> which route you have to take. And where you can end up. And then
forces
>> you to pay for a map.
>>
>>
>> If the patent hasn't been picked up by the courts yet, then why not?
>> *If* the SSSCA were to come into effect (and I have heard little
about
>> it for several months now... biding its time?), then surely all other

>> OSes (subject to legal boundaries) would be prevented by the patent
from
>> implementing the requirements in the bill?
>>
>> ...and to appease the pedanty, it's hard to have a /more/ correct
>> analogy when there was no analogy in the first place. There, got it
out
>> of my system...
>
>pedanty isn't a word, and the original poster mentioned "denying root
>access", which is an analogy.
>
I have no idea why speed limiters on cars is even close to being a
relevant analogy. I had a more simple and direct analogy in mind - it
seems to me that what Microsoft is trying to do is what many of us put
up with at work everyday - I use SPARC workstations to which I do not
have root access. I run programs that I cannot modify and those programs
can use data areas and drivers that I cannot access directly.

This is fine at work - the company owns the computers, besides the
sysadmins are actually really helpful. Having an external agent build
fencees inside my own home is an entirely different matter. One worth a
fight to the death.

>Your understanding of patent law is flawed.
>
Since it seems that the possibility to accomplish what Microsoft has
patented has existed for years prior to their disclosure isn't their
patent a bit weak? Maybe it's more of a formality, a prelude to an OS
dictatorship. After all, the 1st says nothing about the government
making any laws regarding an establishment of an OS. Time to form a
church of the homegrown OS. As of even date I consider Windows in all
forms to be spy/subpoena-ware and I don't even trust Redhat anymore. Is
it even safe to compile a TCP/IP stack without first obfuscating it?

BTW - what is pedanty? Peasantry? Pedantry?

I'm voting for 'peasantry' as the proper choice but yes, there was an
analogy at the root of the original post.

Mike




From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Wed Dec 19 11:15:39 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:15:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <30add788b41765778799c77b220412f5@cypherpunks.to>


> One solution, which I've long advocated, is for the remailer to drop 
> mail which has an unencrypted body after it's applied it's decryption 
> key.
> 
> Provided this is an announced policy, substantially increases the
> protection of the mail and the remop. It does mean that only people
> capable of using encryption can receive mail via the remailer, but   
> that's probably a *good* thing.

No, that is a terrible idea. It totally destroys the usefulness of 
remailers on Usenet and mailing lists.

"Make your system so hard to use that no one uses it. That way, no one 
will abuse it!"

Pshaw.




From contactus at collectiondirectory.com  Wed Dec 19 21:20:30 2001
From: contactus at collectiondirectory.com (Customer Service)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:20:30 -0800
Subject: Attection Collection Agencies and Attorneys: Get Ready For Year-End Charge-offs
Message-ID: <200112200520.fBK5KoKu030484@ak47.algebra.com>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 19:23:37 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:23:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <20011219233152.GA29569@rearviewmirror.org>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Matt Beland wrote:

> Capitalism is a meritocracy. *Commerce* is simply a label for that class
> of activities that include all forms of resource transfer from one
> entity (person, company, nation, world) to another. Some of those are
> meritocracies, such as capitalism. Others are not - true communism is
> one example, almost any form of "planned economy", welfare. 

Communism can't be a form of Capitalism. In fact they are the anti-thesis.

Actually capitalism is the belief that it's the ONLY mechanism to solve
problems.

That IS the problem, that is also the difference between 'commerce' and
'capitalism'.

In commerce, trade is the means that people use to protect themselves and
provide for themselves. Capitalism is the use of money to manage the
society. Not the same thing at all. 'commerce' is a means, 'capitalism' is
an end.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jacquelle.jean-louis at wanadoo.fr  Wed Dec 19 12:31:10 2001
From: jacquelle.jean-louis at wanadoo.fr (JACQUELLE jean-louis)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:31:10 +0100
Subject: gezerolee for a french
Message-ID: <000a01c188cc$191384a0$8ffdfea9@jeux>

hello 
i would like to know where i can find "gezerolee box v1.01"

thank you
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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 19 02:35:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:35:02 +1100
Subject: Steal This Essay 1: Content Is a Pure Public Good 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219212338.00a65e80@pop.useoz.com>


I found youse some text warez at ambulanzen.Enjoy!

Subject: On Negativity Cc: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com
The Future of Negativity
"All advice is bad, but good advice is fatal." Oscar Wilde
The future has become completely predictable; a script that is being worked
through from A to Z. The Plan has finally prevailed. There are merely some
anomalies, corrections that have not yet been made. All arguments are for the
following of the prescribed route. It is true that there are always a 
number of
simultaneous scenarios that are partially overlapping and partially mutually
exclusive. But they have one thing in common: they are all true. Will it be an
ecological catastrophe or an atom bomb? Whichever you request. Humanitarian
disaster or military defeat? The choice is yours. Will it be abstract or
figurative? Whichever way the wind blows. Brazil or China? All options have 
been
thought through. All the right specialists have been found and their 
reports are
ready and waiting to be implemented. The field of vision has narrowed to one
perspective, wherever you look. There are no surprises, only possibilities.
Reread Musil. Even the biggest problems (AIDS in Africa, Bin Laden in
Afghanistan, CCP in the WTO, Bush in Washington) will never be more
than entrances to new markets.
At the moment they appear, all phenomena already contain the structure of this
model. All that remains to us is the dull task of unravelling the software
underneath. The number of programmes is extremely limited. The hermeneutic and
semiotic reading of the world puts up a smokescreen which manages to 
enchant us
again and again with its wealth of shapes, turns and suggestions of depth, but
alas, in fact it is all a bit simpler than that. The theory of difference 
is no
more than a cloth for the bleeding in the "abimes superficiels." Unbearable 
(and
irresistible) simplicity is no longer really distinguishable from banality, 
and
this sends many a public intellectual fleeing to the safe haven of
interpretation. Through this mechanism, an originally critical practice like
cultural studies has slipped away into a safe, meaningless sketch of image
culture. "Visual culture" has degenerated into a profession with prospects. 
This
is how modelistic thinking works: once you get it, you can apply it to 
anything.
We locate this suprahistory when we train our gaze on the sub-human level. The
drama of micropolitics: the pension plan is in place by the time you're 21. 
Try
and get out from under that. A little heli-skiing won't do it. Total 
burnout at
26 seems like it might help, but it turns out later to have been just a
sabbatical. RSI at 14? Just as easily. What else is the future but paying off
mortgages and life insurance? The secret collective longing for a market 
crash,
i.e. a world war, remains a last, authentic expression of the longing to 
make a
clean sweep, to undergo an adventure and then start all over. The hippies
supplied this model. There's no running aground, lost ideals or middle-aged
cynicism in this case  that would have been the fall-of-man model. 
Yesterday's
hippies are today's crisis managers, guiding whole peoples at a time through
their dips. They work according to the dynamic model, which uses resistance to
get ahead by systematically improvising. In this model, things must go 
wrong for
one to become a success. This is in contrast to the compulsory positivism that
three-quarters of the world must disavow to preserve its good humour. Hippie
thinking is happy with any opposition and derives its energy from it.
Negativity rejects every model; that much is clear. But is repudiation, 
however
elegant or brutal, not itself also a model? Negativity distinguishes itself
rigorously from deconstructivism. Deconstruction is an installation CD-ROM 
that
always works. But the software's ability to anticipate is nil. Something 
must be
built up before it can be taken apart, thus the orientation to the past. The
nice thing about this model, however, is its youthful elan in believing 
that the
future can be predicted. That is the game Soros plays. His theory of
reflectivity is based on a solid foundation of European negativity. This is 
why
he can stay "ahead of the wave",most often, while legions of market 
analysts get caught in
their own sales speeches, whose nonsense they can never understand, since 
belief
in their spiels is precisely the product they're selling. And non-monetary
negativity, where is that? Who can enjoy the certainty of decline, and benefit
from it? What a riddle! But one thing is sure: there will always be enough 
that
can be destroyed. "As long as there is death, there is hope."
The future of thinking, the development of forms of expression, planetary
architecture, these are all projects of others. Negativity is an experimental
attitude, an exercise in remembering, followed now and then by a short 
series of
outbursts, and then a long period of hiding inside normality. Optimism can 
turn
into gloominess. On the other hand, it is impossible for cheerfulness to
neutralise negativity. Negativity is itself a form of cheerfulness. There's no
future for negativity, a punk would say. The marketing department of
negative.com (TM) should really be at its wit's end, but that is not the case.
Negativity continues unexpectedly to do well, generation after generation, 
even
as it denies its own future.




From matt at rearviewmirror.org  Wed Dec 19 21:41:47 2001
From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:41:47 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <200112200546.XAA02782@einstein.ssz.com>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 19 02:56:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:56:57 +1100
Subject: Non-political, so probably off-topic for CP :_), 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219214712.00a68ab0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.business-humanrights.org/China.htm the internet great wall of 
china,gulag to rival the US,state murders,Tibet,etc,etc,etc...measl your 
worse than jamesd,you might get a spotters fee,though.

I trust your aware of repression in china,nortels contribution and 
assassination politics.This is re.http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/ 
non-political my ass.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 20:02:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:02:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <200112200343.VAA00680@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Matt Beland wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wednesday 19 December 2001 07:23 pm, Jim Choate wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Matt Beland wrote:
> > > Capitalism is a meritocracy. *Commerce* is simply a label for that class
> > > of activities that include all forms of resource transfer from one
> > > entity (person, company, nation, world) to another. Some of those are
> > > meritocracies, such as capitalism. Others are not - true communism is
> > > one example, almost any form of "planned economy", welfare.
> >
> > Communism can't be a form of Capitalism. In fact they are the anti-thesis.
> 
> Would you mind sticking to the topic? I did not say Communism was a form of 
> Capitalism, I said Capitalism and Communism were both forms of Commerce. 

Just checking. So you recognize a distinction between 'capitalism' and
'commerce' too...

> No. The belief that capitalism is the only mechanism to solve problems is 
> philosophy, not commerce, and pretty bad philosophy at that. 

And what makes you think capitalism isn't just that, a philosophy. In fact
'capitalism' is just like 'communism' or 'democracy', or even
anarcho-capitalism, in that respect. It's nothing more than the 
prioritization of goals and resources. It's distinction is that it posits
that by making lots of money all the other problems somehow take care of
themselves. "In the long run it'll all work out". Assuming of course there
is still anyone around...God $$$ Fascism is what Capitalism is.

"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

                                            Anonymous

'Commerce' has two definitions. The first is involving the economic
exchange of goods and services. The second is any interchange between
individuals. It's worth noting the 1st definition can't exist without the
second, the contrary can't be said. It's hard to have a market if there
is no individual interaction, this implies of course one of two
conclusions. That 'economic commerce' and 'inter-personal' commerce are
either equivalent, or 'inter-personal' encompasses at least 'economic
commerce' (and I'm speaking from an axiomatic and algorithmic
perspective if that's not clear, not philosophical).

And this after all brings us right back to the original question.

"Does everything have a price or not?"


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 20:12:42 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:12:42 -0600
Subject: Independent News - American Taliban has no right to lawyer, insists White House
Message-ID: <3C21653A.4435B8AE@ssz.com>


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=110994

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 20:16:46 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:16:46 -0600
Subject: TheBostonChannel.com - Helen Thomas - What's After Phase I?
Message-ID: <3C21662E.CD0C3D9E@ssz.com>


http://www.thebostonchannel.com/helenthomas/1129426/detail.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Dec 19 20:18:44 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:18:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Independent News - American Taliban has no right to lawyer,
 insists White House
In-Reply-To: <3C21653A.4435B8AE@ssz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=110994

You know I've heard of alot about this today, mostly gibberish which was at
least cleared up by the above link.  Thanks.

I find myself in an interesting position WRT John Walker.  I admire him for
having the strength of his convictions, and volunteering to fight for the
side he believes is right, in the finest American tradition.  But at the same
time, I gotta tell you, I agree that he is a prisoner of war.  Declared or
not, let's face it, he was captured on an active field of battle - he's *not*
a civilian, he's a combatant, and subject to the whims of the military.

This has got to be one of the only times I can ever remember thinking that
our military (much less Shrub) was actually *right* about something.

 -- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 20:33:58 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:33:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: MS DRM OS
In-Reply-To: <3C215575.9C0C9F0D@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Michael Motyka wrote:

> dictatorship. After all, the 1st says nothing about the government
> making any laws regarding an establishment of an OS. Time to form a

The 9th & 10th do however...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 20:34:56 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:34:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Independent News - American Taliban has no right to lawyer, insists White House
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> not, let's face it, he was captured on an active field of battle - he's *not*
> a civilian, he's a combatant, and subject to the whims of the military.

Tell that to the Jews...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 20:36:49 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:36:49 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | IBM Builds A Limited Quantum Computer
Message-ID: <3C216AE1.DAD11FEB@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/20/006228.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 19 03:40:05 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:40:05 +1100
Subject: May the dog
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219220438.00a68830@pop.useoz.com>


In the film "wag the dog",the producer who wants the credit gets the 
chop.One nod from Conrad and "jesus,mary and joseph!,dustin hoffman gets 
the chop.I was thinking about the crook dustin played in "straight 
time",while the CJ drama blew up.He's a gritty little bugger who gets 
rousted by a pudgy PO and blamed for a neighbors roach,busted back to county.
When finally released,after the entire demeaning process,he takes fantastic 
revenge,cuffing the ugly PO to a centre strip light pole with his pants 
down! Its quite a good film with teresa russell and harry dean stanton,it 
looks better in B+W.too.
We may learn a lot from hollywood.Like the producer who made two memo's for 
each movie,butt covering as artform.
Then theres "the player".threats persist after you kill david Kahane? Dont 
sweat on it,script it!
In spite of there not being many good movies lately,the assassination 
politics story is writing itself.kurt prochnow might be better to play me 
than mal.G.There's a distinct lack of luv interest so far and this is a 
fatal weakness I propose to try and remedy ASAP.Honeytrap me mossad,pleeze!
We know from certain *barium* emissions that the state is watching us in 
deadly earnest.We also know by timmies smug self satisfaction.(thats 
getting beyond obnoxious timmy btw) that he,at least,thinks *its*TM is a 
slam dunk.OK lets ask some ladies in the room.We all have to share the 
world and according to agent faustine should worry about each others rights.
Im not allergic to that idea,as long as we all know that truth and rec 
commissions wont cut it, we should come to some arrangements to ease into 
anarchy with the minimal amount of future shock.-For the sake of the 
children.-Im asking jessica S,dorothy if shes not to busy and mary (fbi) to 
come out from behind the curtain.(you dont want to be mistaken for rats,do 
you?) Come out and lets play with these concepts,boil them down for the 
dumb dumbs in high places and farm them out to the PR firms,SF writers,star 
trek script writers and hairdressers that shape the consciousness of world 
culture,such as it is.Theres no future in negativity,fortunately!




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Dec 19 20:56:56 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:56:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Independent News - American Taliban has no right to
 lawyer, insists White House
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > not, let's face it, he was captured on an active field of battle - he's *not*
> > a civilian, he's a combatant, and subject to the whims of the military.
> 
> Tell that to the Jews...

The _Jews_???  What the hell does this have to do with the fucking Jews?  

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From Uran233 at aol.com  Wed Dec 19 19:59:26 2001
From: Uran233 at aol.com (Uran233 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:59:26 EST
Subject: Does your business accept credit cards?                                  ...
Message-ID: 

Michael Leary
412-798-9885
after noon EST
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 19 21:29:03 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:29:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Independent News - American Taliban has no right to lawyer, insists White House
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
> > 
> > > not, let's face it, he was captured on an active field of battle - he's *not*
> > > a civilian, he's a combatant, and subject to the whims of the military.
> > 
> > Tell that to the Jews...
> 
> The _Jews_???  What the hell does this have to do with the fucking Jews?  

Just one example of arguments to the contrary of 'whims of the military'.

Poland, Warsaw.

Demonstrates a serious lack of respect for 'inalienable'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From decoy at iki.fi  Wed Dec 19 13:31:55 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:31:55 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: <012b01c1883e$88798620$fd98fea9@josephas>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Joseph Ashwood wrote:

>> You have a right to do whatever you want, UNTIL it impacts another. Then
>> you stop, or they defend themselves.
>
>Actually that's not true. Take for example the nearly nationwide ban on
>committing suicide.

Which simply goes on to demonstrate the grave difference between what is
morally permissible on the one hand and legal on the other.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec 19 23:33:54 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:33:54 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 04:51 PM, Len Sassaman wrote:

> Dear Cypherpunks and other unsavory characters,
>
> I was recapping for some other remops a conversation that Tim sparked at
> the last cypherpunks meeting regarding pay-per-use remailers, and I had
> some additional thoughts. I'm not an expert on digital cash, so please
> pardon me if I make any obvious errors. I welcome criticism of these 
> ideas
> and explanations as to why they won't work as well as tips for
> improvement.
>
> I've been thinking about how to create pay-per-use remailers for some
> time. The reasons for needing a remailer payment system are obvious: 
> aside
> from handling spamming and flooding, it would encourage more people to 
> run
> remailers. If a remailer operator can expect to make money off of a
> remailer, or at least recoup his losses, he's more likely to do so.
> (Discussion of how liability changes when money is involved is for a
> different time.)

Indeed, we can talk about how money affects liability another time. (But 
I will add that many people here and on the Net have a wrong-headed 
notion that "if you don't charge money, you are protected." This doesn't 
work with software piracy cases, this doesn't work with trespassing in 
physical or cyberspaces, and so on. "Not charging money" is not the 
cloak of protection some seem to think it is.)

> "Digital cash" in the traditional sense isn't necessary for a 
> pay-per-use
> remailer system. Like MojoNation, I am going to refer to the digital 
> cash
> coins as something that has no monetary value in the traditional sense.
> Tim pointed out at the last meeting that what we think of as "money" has
> no inherent value. If you think of the remailer digital cash coins as
> tokens with a very specific purpose, a lot of the objections to using
> digital cash disappear.

Yes, coupons or tokens (like subway tokens, like casino chips, though 
these are not the same thing) can be used in ways that  don't require 
"true digital money" (say what? I will argue later that "true digital 
money" is a misleading meme).

Even Magic Money (circa 1993, Pr0duct Cypher) or Tacky Tokens (approx. 
ditto) would be an interesting experiment.

Even tokens _specific_ to the remailer! ("Use of this remailer costs 1 
Melon"). Mixing tokens as a crude way to anonymize is possible.

> Additionally, I am assuming that there would be a suitable digital cash
> algorithm that could be used for these purposes. I am aware that there 
> are
> algorithms similar to Chaum's in existence, but my level of knowledge
> isn't sufficient to know if they would work for these purposes. In any
> event, the Chaum patents expire soon enough. In this scheme, while the
> anonymity of the token buyer is essential, neither the bank nor the 
> seller
> will have their anonymity protected.

Yes, Chaum happens to be sort of right in this particular case: the 
identity of the remailer is assumed to be traceable (because remailers 
usually operate openly), hence only buyer-untraceability is required, 
hence Chaum Version 2 ecash is OK. Anonymous remailers are possible, 
using broadcast or "message pool" models. For example, sending a message 
to alt.anonymous.messages and having remailers scan the pool for 
messages they can decrypt. This then requires seller-anonymity as well. 
Solvable.

Agnostic digital cash (a la Barnes) could be deployed for remailers 
without an extensive "digital cash infrastructure" involving banks.

One of the reasons I wanted to have a CP meeting focused on implementing 
Chaum protocols without the niceties of licensing from Chaum (or the 
Canadians who now own the patents) was to do this. Alas, our meeting 
went off into other directions....some of you were at that meeting last 
summer.

>
> The system would work as follows, from the point of view of the user:
>
> The user would purchase remailer tokens (digital cash) from a token 
> vendor
> (the bank). This is an exchange similar to car wash tokens or
> TicketMaster[tm], where the seller receives "real cash" and the buyer
> receives a tangible promise of a future service. The tokens could be
> purchased online using PayPal, credit cards, etc. (Yes, this means the
> number of paying remailer customers must be large enough to constitute a
> crowd.)
>
> The user than fires up his remailer client, and each remailer has 
> pricing
> and token service information associated with its key and reliability
> stats. (In this system, multiple token vendors could exist, and 
> remailers
> could be their own vendors. For simplicity's sake, I am going to assume
> that all remailers in this user's client accept the same ticket vendor's
> tokens.)
>
> Each remailer sets a price (i.e., number of tokens) for its use. 
> Remailers
> could even charge a different amount depending on where in the chain it
> fell, with exit hop services costing more than beginning/middle chain
> positions. The user would select his chain based on the reliability 
> stats
> and the pricing information for each remailer. The client would tally 
> the
> cost, and when the user approved, it would remove tokens from the user's
> "purse" and attach them to the outgoing message, interwoven in the 
> various
> layers of encryption in the message.

Yes, this is how markets for remailing services would likely develop. 
All of the usual stuff about price discovery, competition, discounts, 
advertising, etc.

> Now, from the remailer's point of view:
>
> A message is received, and the encryption stripped off. Inside is a
> remailer token, which the remailer redeems with the token vendor after
> ensuring that the token covered the price of the message (accumulating a
> balance in his account, which can then be exchanged for cash by the
> remop.) The message is then delivered to the next hop, and so forth.
>
>
> I came up with this idea after an interesting conversation with Bram 
> Cohen
> one night, and then after researching it realized that others had said
> basically the same thing. I'm interested in hearing problems with the
> above proposal, but for now I am going to assume it is sound. I have a
> further enhancement to this system that I just now realized might be
> possible, and this is what I'm really interested in discussing.

I am painfully aware of the negative effects of saying "That's an old 
idea."

But, of course, it is. No big deal, as it's all the way a paid remailer 
system would almost certainly have to operate. (Multiply-nested, with 
tokens obviously also nested...has to be this way.)

This is how we modeled paid remailers at the very first physical 
meeting, in fact. (We used envelopes within envelopes to model nested, 
chained encryption/remailing, and we used Monopoly money to model 
payments at each stage. The simulated remailer operators even advertised 
discount prices...)

> If a system as I have described above were to be implemented, we could
> solve this problem (as well as the inevitable problems of remailers
> cheating and collecting payment without delivering mail, and the problem
> of double-spending) without having to reveal any useful information to 
> an
> attacker who doesn't already have ability to observe the entire mix
> network.
>
> If the remailer client were to keep track of which tokens were paid to
> which remailer, the user could determine where in a chain message 
> delivery
> failed, or if the message exited the last hop (not exactly the same as 
> if
> it was delivered, but close. The last remailer could cheat, or the
> recipient's mail server could fail. There's ways to improve this, 
> though.)

This sounds likes a good line of thinking.



>
> After the remailer redeems the token with the token vendor, the token
> vendor publishes the token. No one but the user and the remailer know
> which message a given token was linked to, so information leakage is
> minimized. The user can query the token vendor for the most recent token
> redemptions, and will be able to determine where his message either is
> currently waiting in the chain, or where it died.
>
> (This isn't exact either. Failure, in this case, is pinpointed at the 
> link
> between two remailers, rather than at a given remailer. If a user 
> queried
> the bank and discovered that, out of a 5 remailer chain, remailers A, B,
> and C redeemed the tokens but D did not, this either means C is 
> cheating,
> C is broken on sending, or D is broken on receiving. Further tests would
> be necessary to determine the exact nature of the failure.)
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Reasons why the payment system
> would not work? Reasons why the verification system would not work?
> Improvements to either system? Thoughts on the specifics of the digital
> cash algorithms needed?

I wish you the best of luck and encourage others to help.

We old-timers are accused of saying "That's been thought of before." 
Only because the outlines of these things unfolded pretty quickly (see 
the 1992-93 list traffic, for example).

But true progress has historically come when someone pushed the 
implementation, as with the earliest remailers themselves, and later 
remailer sytems like Mixmaster.

A token-based remailer system, while an "obvious" system, would be a 
major accomplishment.

--Tim May
"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone
  with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later
  convinces himself." -- David Friedman




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Dec 20 00:59:11 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:59:11 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220002906.02be1980@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 04:51 PM 12/19/2001 -0800, Len Sassaman wrote:



>"Digital cash" in the traditional sense isn't necessary for a pay-per-use
>remailer system. Like MojoNation, I am going to refer to the digital cash
>coins as something that has no monetary value in the traditional sense.
>Tim pointed out at the last meeting that what we think of as "money" has
>no inherent value. If you think of the remailer digital cash coins as
>tokens with a very specific purpose, a lot of the objections to using
>digital cash disappear.
>
>Additionally, I am assuming that there would be a suitable digital cash
>algorithm that could be used for these purposes. I am aware that there are
>algorithms similar to Chaum's in existence, but my level of knowledge
>isn't sufficient to know if they would work for these purposes. In any
>event, the Chaum patents expire soon enough. In this scheme, while the
>anonymity of the token buyer is essential, neither the bank nor the seller
>will have their anonymity protected.
>
>
>The system would work as follows, from the point of view of the user:
>
>The user would purchase remailer tokens (digital cash) from a token vendor
>(the bank). This is an exchange similar to car wash tokens or
>TicketMaster[tm], where the seller receives "real cash" and the buyer
>receives a tangible promise of a future service. The tokens could be
>purchased online using PayPal, credit cards, etc. (Yes, this means the
>number of paying remailer customers must be large enough to constitute a
>crowd.)
>
>The user than fires up his remailer client, and each remailer has pricing
>and token service information associated with its key and reliability
>stats. (In this system, multiple token vendors could exist, and remailers
>could be their own vendors. For simplicity's sake, I am going to assume
>that all remailers in this user's client accept the same ticket vendor's
>tokens.)
>
>Each remailer sets a price (i.e., number of tokens) for its use. Remailers
>could even charge a different amount depending on where in the chain it
>fell, with exit hop services costing more than beginning/middle chain
>positions. The user would select his chain based on the reliability stats
>and the pricing information for each remailer. The client would tally the
>cost, and when the user approved, it would remove tokens from the user's
>"purse" and attach them to the outgoing message, interwoven in the various
>layers of encryption in the message.
>
>Now, from the remailer's point of view:
>
>A message is received, and the encryption stripped off. Inside is a
>remailer token, which the remailer redeems with the token vendor after
>ensuring that the token covered the price of the message (accumulating a
>balance in his account, which can then be exchanged for cash by the
>remop.) The message is then delivered to the next hop, and so forth.
>
>
>I came up with this idea after an interesting conversation with Bram Cohen
>one night, and then after researching it realized that others had said
>basically the same thing. I'm interested in hearing problems with the
>above proposal, but for now I am going to assume it is sound. I have a
>further enhancement to this system that I just now realized might be
>possible, and this is what I'm really interested in discussing.
>
>One of the big problems with remailers currently is reliability. We can
>attempt to make remailer software more stable, place remailers on better,
>faster systems, add message redundancy to the protocol, etc., and we still
>don't eliminate the major flaw receipt verification. There is no way to
>report back to a message sender that a message did not make delivery, so
>when something does go wrong, the end user rarely has any idea why. Hal
>Finney discussed this, and a possible solution to the problem, here:
>http://nymip.velvet.com/pipermail/nymip-res-group/2001-August/000146.html

If one assumes that delivery failures between remailers are the exception 
rather than the rule then remailers could publish delivery failure 
notifications in message pools (e.g., Usenet alt.anon.messages) encrypted 
with a sender provided key and subject line.  The user's remailer client 
could then scan the group for the subject line to detect problems.


>If a system as I have described above were to be implemented, we could
>solve this problem (as well as the inevitable problems of remailers
>cheating and collecting payment without delivering mail, and the problem
>of double-spending) without having to reveal any useful information to an
>attacker who doesn't already have ability to observe the entire mix
>network.
>
>If the remailer client were to keep track of which tokens were paid to
>which remailer, the user could determine where in a chain message delivery
>failed, or if the message exited the last hop (not exactly the same as if
>it was delivered, but close. The last remailer could cheat, or the
>recipient's mail server could fail. There's ways to improve this, though.)
>
>After the remailer redeems the token with the token vendor, the token
>vendor publishes the token. No one but the user and the remailer know
>which message a given token was linked to, so information leakage is
>minimized. The user can query the token vendor for the most recent token
>redemptions, and will be able to determine where his message either is
>currently waiting in the chain, or where it died.
>
>(This isn't exact either. Failure, in this case, is pinpointed at the link
>between two remailers, rather than at a given remailer. If a user queried
>the bank and discovered that, out of a 5 remailer chain, remailers A, B,
>and C redeemed the tokens but D did not, this either means C is cheating,
>C is broken on sending, or D is broken on receiving. Further tests would
>be necessary to determine the exact nature of the failure.)
>
>Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Reasons why the payment system
>would not work? Reasons why the verification system would not work?
>Improvements to either system? Thoughts on the specifics of the digital
>cash algorithms needed?

One important aspect of preserving the efficacy of a bearer token based 
value system is fraud prevention.  If the tokens are to be exchangeable for 
outside value (e.g., dollars) then there must be effective way to prevent 
the purchaser from defrauding the mint.  There has been considerable debate 
on the "e-gold Discussion"  list on the risks 
of accepting other payment forms for e-gold (which generally cannot be 
repudiated).  One e-gold market maker, particularly stung by cheats, made 
some recommendations 
http://www.gold-age.net/ldf/ThemeStreamArticle-01-2001.html

                                                    'May Scale' of monetary 
hardness
Hardness        Item
1                    Street cash, US dollars
(Hard)
2                   Street cash, euro currencies, japan
3                   e-gold
4                   Street cash, other regions
5                   Interbank transfers of various sorts (wires etc), bank 
checks
6                   personal checks
7                  Consumer-level electronic account transfers (eg bPay)
8                  Business-account-level retail transfer systems
(Soft)
9                   Paypal and similar 'new money' entities, beenz
10                 Credit cards
(Ridiculously soft)

Observe that say stock brokerages definitely do not accept credit cards or 
paypal to fund an account. They will only accept instruments that are very 
hard, such as wire transfers or certified bank checks. When hard money is 
required, only money-types with a hardness of about 5 or better will do the 
job.   Observe though that even money order and bank wires can and have 
been reversed.




From b9414 at mail.ru  Wed Dec 19 22:10:01 2001
From: b9414 at mail.ru (b9414 at mail.ru)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:10:01 -0500
Subject: NEVER REPAY, FREE CASH GRANTS.......                         13332
Message-ID: <00005ba159bd$000030c7$00003414@bluemail.dk>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 19 07:09:34 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:09:34 +1100
Subject: "...all these things that shall come to pass."
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220015921.00a317a0@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: Proffr1 the Illuminator.

Born 1955 died 2091,proffr1 the illuminator is the eco-anark 
apostle,international insane saint and punk patron of
Anarchia.He was the first to institute global democratic libertarian 
socialism as crypto-anarchy.
The anarchists mainline that the faith was preached by the apostles bart 
and thaddeus.Thaddeus
especially.(thanks chief!)The story has been taken over somewhat by the 
ameroanachists.Their land
being the first to turn crypto-anarchist.In their version proffr1 was the 
son of a panthein anark
who murdered king kong 2 and then drowned while crossing the river 
murri.Proffr1 was sepporated and baptized
in the fosters by a surfragette who acted in accordance a 
tele-vision.Proffr1 married, then soon after smarted from
his wife who became a pro,singer,dancer,actress and dowager empress on 
rollerskates.
Proffr1 had travelled to americana where he refused to take part in human 
sacrifice ordered by
king george.He further enraged the king by declaring himself an anarchist 
so when king george
found out proffs father slew king kong he had him thrown into a 
supermax.There he was tortured in
various ways with christian video nasties and bad food and coffee.The only 
thing that kept proffr1
sane was when he befriended a rat who passed messages between cells.Proffr1 
was also sustained
in his time of trial by a pious widow who bought him psychodalek drugs and 
pron and daphne.
Meanwhile the tyrant george had gone from bad to worse.A holy virgin who 
resists the crazy kings
depraved advances is martyred.Rhizsome plays a great part in this story as 
she is driven mad
by the sadistic lust of the bloodthirsty vampire king george the 
wicked.Finally as the crowds recoil
in complete horror,the kings brother see's that he is mad and prays for 
help.At the very moment of doom he see's
a vision off cape canaveral that only proffr can save king george.Proffr1 
is bought from the
dungeons, and placed before the bestial george, proceeds to exorcise the 
evil from him.
His logical,precise and poetic lucidity charm the entire court.The long 
discourse of the anabasis
of proffr1 becomes required holovid viewing and outrates anal gang bang 
6.on channel 99.
Following the fantastic conversion of a boar into a peacable learned 
primate,proffr1 moves
around the kingdom in style staking unregenerate KG wannabees and larrabees 
that refuse enlightenment.There
are suprisingly few as excited web surfers and SMSers spread the word of 
his and Rhizsomes coming.The contrast
could not be greater as if lemon were suddenly squeezed into full cream 
milk.The false gods
and werewolves are driven into caucus were they perish beneath a 
cypher/sword and mentalstorm.Eventually the movement leads to the collapse 
of govts worldwide.Truly it is written that we were in darkness before 
knowing of the cypher/sword of crypto-anarchy wielded by mentalstorm 
prophet and honorary professor1, the Illuminator.




From blancw at cnw.com  Thu Dec 20 02:12:19 2001
From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:12:19 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


>From Sunder:

"Certainly power does corrupt, but you've got to think that at one point in
their lives before they became G men, they had it in mind that they were
doing something good and wholesome in working for Uncle Sam, and
protecting Americans and the American Way of Life (as defined by the
Declaration of Independance, the Bill of Rights, etc.)"
-------------------

They may have had noble motivations and ends in mind, but there are
problems:

Just because they have sworn to obey and protect doesn't mean they read or
actually understood the Declaration, the Constitution, or the Bills.  Even
if they had Goodness For All in mind when they took up their public roles,
it doesn't mean that they would know how these ideas look in action, what
the right methods are of applying these principles.  They may only have a
vague idea of the reason for these documents' creation, of the events
surrounding them, or of the reasons and cause for the creation of this new
nation.

These things, and the concepts in these documents, are not well studied in
public schools, and when 'G men' and such others take up their jobs, they
are not required to study them thoroughly or demonstrate an understanding of
their meaning.  Furthermore, there are other influences at work in the minds
of people which can affect their translation of these documents - influences
like religions which motivate & convince individuals to go beyond the
politically allowed boundaries in order to try to make people become "good"
against their will, or like philosophies which would provide an
interpretation of "propriety" that is counter to what is in these founding
documents (as in the pursuit personal happiness).  When philosophies and
religions (not to mention mental limitations like those exhibited by
you-know-who) clash with the political philosophy in the Constitution, and
especially when none of these things are well examined, but only vaguely
held, there is bound to result all sorts of contradictory distortions in the
applications of the lofty ideals.

You would think it should be a simple thing to leave others alone and make a
valid stand against injustice, but the problems of haphazard education, the
lack of serious consideration of these ideals, as well as the other elements
mentioned, create complexity and inconsistencies, as well as disrespect,
which are difficult to overcome even with the guidance from Wise Men of Old.
And nothing can replace an active intelligence and educated sensitivity,
important ingredients for maintaining reality in the present, even in a
"free" world full of program manuals from the past.

  ..
Blanc




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Dec 20 02:23:09 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:23:09 -0800
Subject: Wired on e-gold
In-Reply-To: <76fd45e6e79799c888fe92def4dc1d8a@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <909D6DDA-F533-11D5-A2B6-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 04:30 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Criminals love privacy, they love anonymity.  Remailer operators soon 
> find
> that a substantial majority of the messages they send contain nothing
> but harrassment and threats.

	Just how would the remailer operators find this out?

	Are you implying that Remops read the mail passing through their 
machines?

> Few customers use anonymity services
> for positive purposes, to protect their privacy while engaging in
> legitimate activities.

	How do you know?

> With most people, if they have nothing to hide,
> they don't hide it.

	Everyone has something to hide.

	Everyone.

> Only paranoids and extremists will adopt anonymity
> technologies without nefarious purposes in mind.  Anyone proposing to
> offer new services for privacy and anonymity should be prepared to deal
> with the onslaught of criminals who will use the system for bad ends.

	If you mean by "Criminal" "One who breaks the law", well there are 
a lot of laws that have no legitimate purpose. If you mean by criminals 
"One who regularly commits immoral acts", then you are in much more 
trouble.
	
--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Dec 20 02:24:20 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:24:20 -0800
Subject: Nazi dwarf,tom cruise,in singapore.Scientologist City.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011219114734.00a30370@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 04:53 PM, mattd wrote:

> http://theage.com.au/entertainment/2001/12/19/FFXKJ94KCVC.html
>
> Tom Cruise says Hollywood will stop internet thieves
> Wednesday 19 December 2001
> People who download movies off the internet are "thieves" who threaten 
> the
> potential of the film industry, Tom Cruise said yesterday.

	If there is a God, please let this happen.


--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Dec 20 02:26:50 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:26:50 -0800
Subject: Wired on e-gold
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218175940.02e3e830@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <146DB010-F534-11D5-A2B6-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 06:02 PM, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 01:30 AM 12/19/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
>> 
>>
>> Criminals love privacy, they love anonymity.  Remailer operators soon 
>> find
>> that a substantial majority of the messages they send contain nothing
>> but harrassment and threats.  Few customers use anonymity services
>> for positive purposes, to protect their privacy while engaging in
>> legitimate activities.  With most people, if they have nothing to hide,
>> they don't hide it.  Only paranoids and extremists will adopt anonymity
>> technologies without nefarious purposes in mind.  Anyone proposing to
>> offer new services for privacy and anonymity should be prepared to deal
>> with the onslaught of criminals who will use the system for bad ends.
>
> One would assume then that most governments are paranoids, extremists 
> and criminals since the use of privacy/secrecy and even anonymity 
> technologies are stock and trade in some of their agencies.

	Yes, one would assume that.

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From bxain at redneck.gacracker.org  Wed Dec 19 21:51:01 2001
From: bxain at redneck.gacracker.org (Ben Xain)
Date: 20 Dec 2001 05:51:01 -0000
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011220055101.27625.qmail@gacracker.org>


On 19 Dec 01 Len Sassaman wrote:
>(This isn't exact either. Failure, in this case, is pinpointed at the link
>between two remailers, rather than at a given remailer. If a user queried
>the bank and discovered that, out of a 5 remailer chain, remailers A, B,
>and C redeemed the tokens but D did not, this either means C is cheating,
>C is broken on sending, or D is broken on receiving. Further tests would
>be necessary to determine the exact nature of the failure.)

Hmmm I have an idea about this.  What if remailer C doesn't get to
cash in on his tokens unless delivery to remailer D can be confirmed?
Or maybe there is some other way to cut down on cheating.

Ben Xain
bxain at redneck.gacracker.org




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec 20 05:50:06 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:50:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: prisoners dilemma 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220213112.00a718e0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



Yes, but the bigger they are the shorter they survive. It's sort of like
'virtual particles'. For a given energy level they can exist for only so
long.

I think the goal is to build a society that is long lived and intrudes on
the affairs of the individual a minimal amount.


On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> anarchy is possible
> The results of Axelrod studies prove that under certain conditions 
> cooperation among individuals can emerge and be stable without the need of 
> a central authority, regardless of the selfish or altruist nature of the 
> interactants.
> http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/8733/ipd.html
> 
> Possible to have smuggled posts from former list members published? Several 
> books have been written this way.
> Information does want to be free.
> 


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Dec 20 07:52:20 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:52:20 -0800
Subject: Pentagon Trying to Block Advanced EU Space Project
Message-ID: <3C220933.446BFD8B@cdc.gov>


At 05:14 PM 12/20/01 +0200, Jei wrote:
>Subject: [ParanoidTimes] Pentagon Trying to Block Advanced EU Space
Project
>
>PARIS - The European Commission said Tuesday that the
>United States had sought to block the deployment of a
>European system of navigation known as Galileo, with
>the Americans arguing that an enemy could turn it
>against the West in the event of a war.


>But President Jacques Chirac of France warned that
>Europeans risked "vassal status" if they abandoned
>this and other important space projects.

*Ding*  Give the monkey a bon-bon.




From wolf at priori.net  Thu Dec 20 08:48:55 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:48:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Len Sassaman wrote:

> The user would purchase remailer tokens (digital cash) from a token vendor
> (the bank). This is an exchange similar to car wash tokens or
> TicketMaster[tm], where the seller receives "real cash" and the buyer
> receives a tangible promise of a future service. The tokens could be
> purchased online using PayPal, credit cards, etc. (Yes, this means the
> number of paying remailer customers must be large enough to constitute a
> crowd.)

The importance of having a large number of remailer users is made even
greater by this system. While it might be easy for a TLA to monitor all
network traffic and compile a list of all remailer users, having a bank
make that list for them in an easily subpoena-able form saves them some
work.

> If the remailer client were to keep track of which tokens were paid to
> which remailer, the user could determine where in a chain message delivery
> failed, or if the message exited the last hop (not exactly the same as if
> it was delivered, but close. The last remailer could cheat, or the
> recipient's mail server could fail. There's ways to improve this, though.)
>
> After the remailer redeems the token with the token vendor, the token
> vendor publishes the token. No one but the user and the remailer know
> which message a given token was linked to, so information leakage is
> minimized. The user can query the token vendor for the most recent token
> redemptions, and will be able to determine where his message either is
> currently waiting in the chain, or where it died.

Not to say that you should not implement hashcash in remailers, but is it
really necessary that these two features be linked? Thinking about this
further, could you not implement the tracking system using random
client-generated tokens that the user generated, the remailer published,
and were meaningless to anyone else?

One problem with this sort of system that springs to mind immediately is
the need for user assurance that the tracking tokens are not being used as
a covert channel.



-MW-




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Dec 20 08:20:05 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:20:05 -0700
Subject: MS DRM OS
References: <3C215575.9C0C9F0D@lsil.com> <3C21E2CF.4070604@exmosis.net>
Message-ID: <3C220FB5.E30F6769@lsil.com>


My thought is that it is not novel in any way save that it witholds root access
from the owner of the machine.

Graham Lally wrote:

> Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>  > Since it seems that the possibility to accomplish what Microsoft has
>  > patented has existed for years prior to their disclosure isn't their
>  > patent a bit weak?
>
> While I must admit that the implementation of such an idea is intriguing
> from a purely technical point of view (and has probably been much
> discussed in various circles), the transition to patenting it with an
> eye to produce a working product makes its threat to consumer choice all
> the more real. This is the next, logical step following
> application/hardware-specific DRM that we are seeing now. After that,
> it's a small jump to global AOLness - an OS that will only accept
> content from specific sources, rather than a source that will only play
> on a specific OS...
>
> The patent was filed Jan 8th 1999, so they've obviously been keeping it
> in consideration for a while before that, I would assume. It also proves
> that MS haven't just filed this in light of the recent paranoia or the
> increasing tension amongst the music industry over the past year or so -
> according to the kids' FAQ at the USPTO it does take about 22 months to
> get a patent, so this would have happened in spite of the fearful state
> of the current music and film industries. This probably means MS have
> code written for it, a database set-up waiting for the INSERTs to come
> flooding in, a launch party planned and years of security patches waiting...
>
>  > BTW - what is pedanty? Peasantry? Pedantry?
>
> Definition in a previous mail, but it's an assembly of pedants...
> There's probably an amusing collective noun for it too :)
>
> .g
>
> --
> "Sometimes I use google instead of pants."




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Dec 20 01:38:50 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:38:50 +0000
Subject: Steal This Essay 1: Content Is a Pure Public Good
References: <6E6CB764-F459-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>
  <013f01c188ac$2e4f35a0$5600a8c0@mark>
Message-ID: <3C21B1A9.F78B5B96@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Like, er, the posting was called "steal this essay" and he did. 

Obviously it is not true that all Americans lack a sense of irony. Jim
Choate maybe has no other.

Ken

Marcel Popescu wrote:
> 
> From: "Tim May" 
> 
> > This guy's essay is really good. And it only took him a few minutes!
> 
> Ok, WHAT essay? You just quoted a few lines, attributed them to Tim May
> (hello???), and added an URL to a site "currently in construction".
> 
> Mark




From pcw at flyzone.com  Thu Dec 20 06:54:42 2001
From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:54:42 -0500
Subject: Double the Reward for Errors in _Disappearing Cryptography_
Message-ID: <200112201454.fBKEssm28599@slack.lne.com>


I'm working on a second edition of _Disappearing Cryptography_, a 
book about steganography and anonymity on-line. Last week, I offered 
a $10 reward for anyone who reports the technical errors in the first 
edition to me. This week I'm doubling the reward to $20 per error. 
Why? Because I've only gotten one report. That means there are either 
few errors or the incentive isn't large enough. So let's try again.

Here are the rules:

*) Only the first person to report an error wins a prize. This is the 
only way to avoid many people submitting the same error again and 
again and again. I reserve the right to pay duplicate prizes to 
people who appear to have submitted a duplicate in good faith. (The 
only one reported is on page 27 in a sentence describing the Euler 
Totient Function.)

*) I reserve the right to decide the size of an error. If 
misspellings counted, spelling someone's name incorrectly throughout 
the entire book would only count as one error.

*) First person is judged by the time the error arrives in my 
mailbox, pcw at flyzone.com.

*) Only technical errors count. Grammar and spelling errors could 
bankrupt me, even after the copy editing fixes 99%.

*) Please submit the page number.

*) Please let me know if you want your name included in the thanks at 
the beginning of the book.


Thank you. You're free to forward this offer to any other list.

-Peter
pcw at flyzone.com




From scribe at exmosis.net  Thu Dec 20 02:29:08 2001
From: scribe at exmosis.net (Graham Lally)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:29:08 +0000
Subject: MS DRM OS
References: <3C1E082F.F8D15DA6@lsil.com>  <20011219095606.B2694@localhost> <3C1FE178.1050701@exmosis.net> <20011220131056.C9551@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C21BD74.6050103@exmosis.net>


Ralph Wallis wrote:

> pedanty isn't a word, and the original poster mentioned "denying root
> access", which is an analogy.


Damn, I spent ages looking up that word.
M-W doesn't list it, true, so here it is from
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=pedanty

pedanty \Ped"ant*y\, n. An assembly or clique of pedants. [Obs.]

Just because it's obsolete doesn't mean I can't use it. Froom, froom and 
more froom...

The mistaken claimed lack of analogy was a slip on my part. Sorry.

 
> Your understanding of patent law is flawed.


Instead of just miserably pointing out "oh, you're wrong", it'd be 
infinitely more helpful if you could at least attempt to correct 
somebody on their errors. I don't know everything. Everyone makes 
mistakes. Thanks to georgemw for lending a hand though.

.g

 

--
"Sometimes I use google instead of pants."






From scribe at exmosis.net  Thu Dec 20 02:31:42 2001
From: scribe at exmosis.net (Graham Lally)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:31:42 +0000
Subject: Concerts to raise money for battle against record companies
Message-ID: <3C21BE0E.6020305@exmosis.net>


 From Slashdot...
http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/1348770p-1418333c.html

[...]

"The Recording Artists Coalition, a trade group representing more than 
100 entertainers, has booked several sites in Los Angeles for the Feb. 
26 concerts.

"Money raised from the concerts will help fund an offensive against the 
major record labels for allegedly denying musicians a share of royalty 
earnings.

[...]

"``It's about time for artists to take control of their work and how it 
is presented to our fans,'' said Dexter Holland of the band Offspring, 
which will perform as part of the effort."

[...]

.g
-- 
"Sometimes I use google instead of pants."




From freematt at coil.com  Thu Dec 20 08:16:51 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:16:51 -0500
Subject: Jonah Goldberg at the end of his rope
Message-ID: 


[Note from Matthew Gaylor:  Your letters and comments have appeared 
to get under the skin of police state apologist Jonah Goldberg. 
Since Goldberg mentions his wife, perhaps I should mention that she 
works as an aide or something for you guessed it John Ashcroft.]



Cabin Fever
A note to readers from the end of the rope.
By Jonah Goldberg, NRO editor

Jonah Goldberg can be reached at (JonahEmail at aol.com).

December 19, 2001 4:05 p.m.

For those of you truly sick of the libertarian-versus-conservative 
debate, let me just repeat that, as a conservative, I respect 
established authority. In this case, that happens to be my wife and 
she says I'm not allowed to play with the libertarians anymore.

[...]

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Thu Dec 20 11:39:14 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:39:14 -0800
Subject: MS DRM OS
In-Reply-To: <3C220FB5.E30F6769@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3C21CDE2.21505.74A93F@localhost>


On 20 Dec 2001, at 9:20, Michael Motyka wrote:

> My thought is that it is not novel in any way save that it witholds root access
> from the owner of the machine.
> 

I think it does a little more than that.  "Deny the luser owner
root access" is sufficient to explain how the luser is prevented
from copying or modifying the trusted content, but it doesn't
explain how "trusted" apps can access the data.  
In essence, deny the luser root access + all programs signed
by microsoft automatically run as root. Neither piece alone
would be innovative enough to be patentable, but maybe the combo 
is.

George






From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 20 08:42:35 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:42:35 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Says who exactly (other than yourself)?  Please provide quoted references
that state exactly what you have just said.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > But it's free speech, not music, regardless of amplification, so how does
> > the ordinance apply?
> 
> You have a right to do whatever you want, UNTIL it impacts another. Then
> you stop, or they defend themselves.
> 
> 'public' == other
> 
> I'll leave the rest for you to muddle through at your own speed.
> 
> 




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 20 08:44:32 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:44:32 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


And which BASIC PRINCIPLE is that?  Where is the law that codifies
that?  I don't see anything in the Bill of Rights that says anything about

  "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law, so long as it affect
not another."

Only in thelema and wicca is there anything close.

Certainly it is a good principle, but where is it in the law?

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> 
> > Actually that's not true. Take for example the nearly nationwide ban on
> > committing suicide.
> 
> There is a difference between stating the basic principle and stating that
> the principle is acted upon. Were the principle acted upon we wouldn't be
> having these discussions in the first place.
> 
> We ALMOST ALL agree that the principles are not being followed. That in no
> way detracts from the principles (eg very few follow the CACL philosophy
> therefore it must not be 'true').
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 20 08:50:23 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:50:23 -0500 (est)
Subject: Test
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Come on now Jim, we all know you can count to much higher numbers than
that. :)  Can we see you count to 10?  Maybe even 100?

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 1, 2, 3




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 20 09:10:54 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:10:54 -0500 (est)
Subject: Who Am I Anyway?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Says who Jim (other than you)?  Prove it.  Provide us with references that
state that in WWII soldiers were required to provide driver licenses,
passports, birth certs or other proof of identity.


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> > Frissell's Believe it or Not:
> > 
> > WWII was won by soldiers, sailors, and marines who fought, died, flew 
> > bombers, commanded armies, commanded fleets, and possessed and used nuclear 
> > weapons without ever having provided the US government with any proof of 
> > their identity.
> 
> Bullshit, if they had birth certificates they were required to produce
> them. And if you worked on the neuclear weapons then the FBI most
> certainly did do a background check.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Thu Dec 20 11:21:38 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:21:38 -0700
Subject: MS DRM OS
Message-ID: <3C223A42.827F5B2B@lsil.com>


>On 20 Dec 2001, at 9:20, Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>> My thought is that it is not novel in any way save that it witholds
root access
>> from the owner of the machine.
>>
>
>I think it does a little more than that.  "Deny the luser owner
>root access" is sufficient to explain how the luser is prevented
>from copying or modifying the trusted content, but it doesn't
>explain how "trusted" apps can access the data.
>In essence, deny the luser root access + all programs signed
>by microsoft automatically run as root. Neither piece alone
>would be innovative enough to be patentable, but maybe the combo
>is.
>
>George
>
I think the combo is used regularly  : e.g. version control logfiles
that are not directly accessible to a user but the user can have ci/co
access via applications that run with the correct permissions. A user
may fuck up a version of the file but may not make things unrecoverable.

We could get into a long discussion of the details of data source and
sink types ( sockets, disk files, other devices ) but the basic
principle is the id/permissions one.

I just don't think the concept is particularly novel but I have no doubt
it will be implemented and protected viciously. I use the word viciously
because that is the only way to make DRM work and there is a great deal
of money at stake.

Mike





From elyn at consect.com  Thu Dec 20 10:01:58 2001
From: elyn at consect.com (Elyn Wollensky)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:01:58 -0500
Subject: Fw: Israeli compromise of U.S. telecommunications?
Message-ID: <00c701c18980$6ba243a0$6b8d1d18@nyc.rr.com>


fwd from cryptography list:
some interesting points on CALEA -
elyn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ronald L. Rivest 
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:41 AM
Subject: Israeli compromise of U.S. telecommunications?


> 
> I found the following four-part report by Carl Cameron rather shocking:
> 
> Part 1: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40684,00.html
> Part 2: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40747,00.html
> Part 3: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40824,00.html
> Part 4: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40981,00.html
> 
> Why should we be freely giving to Israeli corporations
> information (call records, CALEA information) that requires
> court orders to obtain in this country?  Such information
> is obviously sensitive, and the well-motivated efforts to
> strengthen and protect our national infrastructure should
> reasonably include mandating that such information not be
> routinely handled by any foreign entities...
> 
> A more recent story indicates that the compromise was
> probably severe; criminals were escaping detection
> because of the compromise:
>    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/18/224826.shtml
> 
> This vindicates concerns many of us have expressed
> over the years about creating single points of failure
> in wiretapping systems (e.g. the vulnerability of key
> escrow, etc.).  Of course, in this case the vulnerability
> was intentionally created, it seems, by giving critical
> capabilities to foreign entities...
> 
> Ronald L. Rivest
 





From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 20 10:04:10 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:04:10 -0500 (est)
Subject: MS DRM OS
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


They do?  Where?  That's funny, I didn't think the dudes who wrote the
Bill o'Rights knew anything about operating systems, much less
computers.  Wow!  So were they time travelers?  Or did they have crystal
balls? (Huh huh, huh huh, he said 'balls'!  Yeah, yeah, that was cool!)

So in our universe/dimension/etc, our bill of rights says this for it's
9th and 10th ammendments...  What do they say inChote'?

Amendment IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights,
shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the
states respectively, or to the people.



On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Michael Motyka wrote:
> 
> > dictatorship. After all, the 1st says nothing about the government
> > making any laws regarding an establishment of an OS. Time to form a
> 
> The 9th & 10th do however...




From scribe at exmosis.net  Thu Dec 20 05:08:31 2001
From: scribe at exmosis.net (Graham Lally)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:08:31 +0000
Subject: MS DRM OS
References: <3C215575.9C0C9F0D@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3C21E2CF.4070604@exmosis.net>


Michael Motyka wrote:

 > Since it seems that the possibility to accomplish what Microsoft has
 > patented has existed for years prior to their disclosure isn't their
 > patent a bit weak?

While I must admit that the implementation of such an idea is intriguing 
from a purely technical point of view (and has probably been much 
discussed in various circles), the transition to patenting it with an 
eye to produce a working product makes its threat to consumer choice all 
the more real. This is the next, logical step following 
application/hardware-specific DRM that we are seeing now. After that, 
it's a small jump to global AOLness - an OS that will only accept 
content from specific sources, rather than a source that will only play 
on a specific OS...

The patent was filed Jan 8th 1999, so they've obviously been keeping it 
in consideration for a while before that, I would assume. It also proves 
that MS haven't just filed this in light of the recent paranoia or the 
increasing tension amongst the music industry over the past year or so - 
according to the kids' FAQ at the USPTO it does take about 22 months to 
get a patent, so this would have happened in spite of the fearful state 
of the current music and film industries. This probably means MS have 
code written for it, a database set-up waiting for the INSERTs to come 
flooding in, a launch party planned and years of security patches waiting...

 > BTW - what is pedanty? Peasantry? Pedantry?

Definition in a previous mail, but it's an assembly of pedants... 
There's probably an amusing collective noun for it too :)

.g


-- 
"Sometimes I use google instead of pants."




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 20 10:09:44 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:09:44 -0500 (est)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Um, Blanc, that was a rethorical question. :)  I don't really want to know
the "answer" -- it doesn't really matter.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From mischief at optushome.com.au  Wed Dec 19 18:10:56 2001
From: mischief at optushome.com.au (Ralph Wallis)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:10:56 +1100
Subject: MS DRM OS
In-Reply-To: <3C1FE178.1050701@exmosis.net>; from scribe@exmosis.net on Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 12:38:16AM +0000
References: <3C1E082F.F8D15DA6@lsil.com> <20011219095606.B2694@localhost> <3C1FE178.1050701@exmosis.net>
Message-ID: <20011220131056.C9551@localhost>


On Wednesday, 19 Dec 2001 at 00:38, Graham Lally  wrote:
> Ralph Wallis wrote:
> 
> > On Monday, 17 Dec 2001 at 07:58, Michael Motyka  wrote:
> > 
> >>Could someone who knows more than I do explain to me why this MS "IP" is
> >>anything other than making the owner of a PC unable to have root access
> >>to their own hardware/OS? If so it seems to be an idea unworthy of
> >>protection from lawyers and men with guns.
> >>
> > 
> > A more correct analogy is with speed limiters on cars.
> 
> 
> On your own roads. And the car maker tells you where you can go to. And 
> which route you have to take. And where you can end up. And then forces 
> you to pay for a map.
> 
> 
> If the patent hasn't been picked up by the courts yet, then why not? 
> *If* the SSSCA were to come into effect (and I have heard little about 
> it for several months now... biding its time?), then surely all other 
> OSes (subject to legal boundaries) would be prevented by the patent from 
> implementing the requirements in the bill?
> 
> ...and to appease the pedanty, it's hard to have a /more/ correct 
> analogy when there was no analogy in the first place. There, got it out 
> of my system...

pedanty isn't a word, and the original poster mentioned "denying root
access", which is an analogy.

Your understanding of patent law is flawed.





From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec 20 13:22:50 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:22:50 -0800
Subject: how to subpeona Quest for ISP records
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011220132250.0079d250@sarin.com>>


[Found on Morpheus as "WritingSubpeonas.pdf",
not found on cryptome's search, so here it is]



How to Write Subpoenas
Kathy Hines, Manager - Security Services
Qwest Law Enforcement Internet Security Seminar
Qwest Internet Solutions
Minneapolis, MN
October 19, 2000

Agenda
 Examples of subpoena problems
 Examples of well written subpoenas
 Child Pornography
 Available Information
 The Security Technical Analyst Team

Botched userids - they were
probably forged anyway. Please provide address, phone number, billing
information, and connection records for the
userid john a peterson @u s west. net for 7/ 23
- 7/ 30/ 2000.
 Legitimate userid formats would be:
john. peterson@ uswest. net or
john_ peterson@ uswest. net.
 Please provide address, phone number, billing
information, and connection records for the
userid h@ ckez 133 @u s west. net for
8/ 19/ 2000. Can not have two @ symbols in an
e- mail address.

Occasionally it makes sense to issue a
subpoena with a userid as evidence.
 Please provide connection records and caller- id
for the userid larryboy@ qwest. net for 12: 01
a. m. on 9/ 17/ 2000 through 11: 59 p. m. on
9/ 17/ 2000 MDT.
 The criminals had stolen a car that contained
computer equipment and used one of the laptops
to connect to the Internet. The police were
looking for the caller- id of the accounts
connections on 9/ 17.
Stolen car with a laptop in it.

Send me everything for the last
millenium.
 Please provide all subscriber information from
1995 through the present for IP address
216. xxx. xx. 227; also referred to as
cxxppp227. ptld. uswest. net.
Grand Jury Subpoena

Send me everything but the
kitchen sink. Please provide all subscriber information for
candigirl, including, but not limited to, true
name, date of birth, SSN, address, all phone
numbers, credit card numbers, connection logs,
e- mails, chat sessions, web sites visited, and
connections to other ISPs.
 We have the customers account information but
not everything theyve ever done on the Internet.

Send me the kitchen sink too!
Preservation of Evidence Request
This letter is to request that Qwest Communications
take all necessary steps to preserve any and all records
and any other evidence in its possession pending the
issuance of a court order or other legal process in
regard to all telephone and Internet conference
connection information on September 11, 2000 between
8 pm through 4 am Pacific Standard Time (PST). This
request also covers preservation of all records,
including call details, for the Qwest connection
telephone number (111) 222- 9999 during the above
period of time.

Typo the IP address and we can
start an international
investigation!
 The IP address 63.14.69.108 is for a qwest. net
connection.
 The IP address 63.147.69.108 trace routes
through a uu. net connection.
 The IP address 163.14.69.108 trace routes
through an att. net connection.
 The IP address 263.14.69.108 does not exist.
No IP numbers go over 255.

A very well written subpoena.
information about the subscriber to IP address
216.161.69. xxx, account holders name, address,
phone number, and connection records for this
ISP account. The intrusion occurred on Sat. 12
Aug. 2000 at 22: 54: 59 hrs. to Sat. 12 Aug.
2000 23: 30: 20 hrs. C. D. T.
I dont have to play guessing games with
any of this data.

Another good subpoena.
Please provide all available account information
for IP address 63.1xx. 69. xxx on 8/ 16/ 2000 from
11: 56 a. m. to 12: 18 p. m. MST including any
and all screen names and E- mail addresses along
with telephone numbers of the account holder,
any caller ID information maintained for any
connection made from this account including
true names and addresses.
I wont have additional screen names,
but I can provide the rest of the data.

 

Subpoena Submission Process
 Qwest uses the C T Corporation as a receiving agent
for subpoenas
 C T Corporation has offices in all 50 states - use the
one in your state to send subpoenas to Qwest
 Address the subpoena to Qwest Communications
 The Minnesota address for C T Corporation is
C T Corporation System
405 Second Avenue, South
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401


Copyright Qwest Internet Solutions, 2000
Available Information
 We do not keep copies of our customers e- mail
messages
 We do not monitor our customers Internet traffic
 We do not surf through our customers web pages
looking for offending material
 We strive to maintain our computer logs for one
year
 We can provide name, address, telephone
number( s), and secondary userids for an account
 We have, in the past, retained copies of customers
current e- mail when provided with a court order

Security Technical Analyst Team
 We currently have seven people on the team
 They handle approximately 11,000 e- mail
complaints from the Internet to abuse@ qwest. net
each month
 They have fulfilled approximately 130 subpoenas
so far in 2000
 They have fielded several warrants, court orders,
and one vacate court order
 They handle about 100 calls per month regarding
subpoenas destined for Qwest, hacking incidents,
Denial of Service attacks, and questions concerning
account deactivations
--
foo




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec 20 11:17:03 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:17:03 -0500 (est)
Subject: MS DRM OS
In-Reply-To: <3C21CDE2.21505.74A93F@localhost>
Message-ID: 


Pshaw... with our patent office?  Hell, if it says "Microsoft" on the
application the monkey with the "Approved" stamp will happily apply the
ink to the paper.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

> On 20 Dec 2001, at 9:20, Michael Motyka wrote:
> 
> > My thought is that it is not novel in any way save that it witholds root access
> > from the owner of the machine.
> > 
> 
> I think it does a little more than that.  "Deny the luser owner
> root access" is sufficient to explain how the luser is prevented
> from copying or modifying the trusted content, but it doesn't
> explain how "trusted" apps can access the data.  
> In essence, deny the luser root access + all programs signed
> by microsoft automatically run as root. Neither piece alone
> would be innovative enough to be patentable, but maybe the combo 
> is.
> 
> George
> 




From Norman.Singleton at mail.house.gov  Thu Dec 20 13:35:09 2001
From: Norman.Singleton at mail.house.gov (Singleton, Norman)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:35:09 -0500
Subject: Magic Lantern
Message-ID: 

The FBI Congressional Liason office respond to my inquiry on Magic Lantern 
by telling me they could not provide me with any information on this 
because it is "classified." She also said she was told that the project is 
still being developed and it was a "mistake" that coverage of this has made 
it into the media. The Congressional liaison also said the folks working on 
this would not tell her anything about the project.

Norman Kirk Singleton
Legislative Director
Congressman Ron Paul
202-225-2831 (ph)




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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Thu Dec 20 07:14:59 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:14:59 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Pentagon Trying to Block Advanced EU Space Project
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:16:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Cheri 
Reply-To: ParanoidTimes at yahoogroups.com
To: paranoidtimes at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ParanoidTimes] Pentagon Trying to Block Advanced EU Space Project

U.S. Out of Line on Global Positioning, EU Says
Barry James
International Herald Tribune
Wednesday, December 19, 2001

PARIS - The European Commission said Tuesday that the
United States had sought to block the deployment of a
European system of navigation known as Galileo, with
the Americans arguing that an enemy could turn it
against the West in the event of a war.

The U.S. move added to the economic and political
pressures surrounding the project in Europe, where
many countries see it as a vital means of catching up
with America in a key technology sector but others
balk at the expense.

Only last weekend, at a summit meeting in Brussels,
leaders of the European Union instructed government
ministers to try to resolve the financing issues by
March.

A spokesman for the commission said the U.S. Defense
Department had written to the defense ministers of the
15 EU countries warning that Galileo could be used by
an enemy and asking governments to consider scrapping
the project.

But President Jacques Chirac of France warned that
Europeans risked "vassal status" if they abandoned
this and other important space projects.

France and several other governments, as well as the
European Commission, see Galileo as a vital
counterweight to the U.S. Global Positioning System,
which has a vast number of military and civilian
applications, from landing smart weapons on target to
locating trucks on a continental highway network.

The United States offers free use of the Global
Positioning System to the EU countries, but the
commission spokesman, Gilles Gantelet, said there was
no guarantee that it would still be free in 10 years'
time.

Loyola de Palacio, the European commissioner in charge
of the Galileo project, angrily denounced the
prospects of further delays. "We are at the limits of
coherence already," she said, "and any new delay
threatens the profitability of the project."

While the United States had originally expressed its
support for the European project, Mrs. Palacio said
there was now "a letter and pressure exerted by the
United States. American pressure against the Galileo
project has increased since September 11."

The commission says the project must be operational by
2008 to be profitable. This is partly because the
World Telecommunication Union has guaranteed radio
frequencies only up to that date, and partly because
the EU has entered into commitments with a number of
other countries, including the United States, Canada,
Russia and China.

Under the worst possible scenario, including the need
for backup launchers and satellites, the final bill to
deploy Galileo could be as high as E3.6 billion ($3.2
billion), according to an independent accounting survey
carried out on behalf of the commission this year.

But the accounting study also estimated that Galileo
would generate economic benefits more than four times
greater than that, with wide scale applications in
transport and personal communications, and a vital
contribution to the operations of police, fire and
emergency services. The study indicated substantial
social and economic benefits, "notably for the
protection of the environment, employment and European
technological development."

Mr. Gantelet said the U.S. objections were contained
in a letter dated Dec. 4 from the deputy secretary of
defense, Paul Wolfowitz. He said the Americans
considered, "in times of conflict, they would have
problems because of Galileo. They feel that the enemy
could use some applications of Galileo and that they
could not impede that."

According to diplomatic sources who have seen the
letter, Mr. Wolfowitz said the United States was
planning to upgrade its Global Positioning System by
separating the military and civilian spectra.

The addition of Galileo services in the same spectra,
the letter said, "will significantly complicate our
ability to ensure availability of critical GPS
services in times of crisis or conflict and at the
same time assure that adversary forces are denied
similar capabilities."

He said the U.S. government was willing to work toward
finding acceptable solutions to "avert potentially
serious impacts."

The apparent U.S. bid to block Galileo is likely to
have the most resonance precisely in the countries
most skeptical about the project: Britain, the
Netherlands and Germany. They argue in essence that it
is pointless to spend so much money on something they
can get for free from the United States.

Because of their objections, EU transport ministers
refused on Dec. 7 to release money to fund the next
phase of the project.

In a speech to the National Center for Space Studies
in Paris, Mr. Chirac said that satellite navigation
had vital commercial and industrial applications and
would be a key factor in the European Union's ambition
to build up an independent security capability, with
the planned creation of a rapid reaction military force.

Mr. Chirac said the United States spent six times more
on space ventures than the European Union. Not to
react to U.S. space conquests, he said "would lead our
country inevitably to a vassal status, first scientific
and technical and then industrial and economic."

http://www.iht.com/articles/42335.html


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From ravage at ssz.com  Thu Dec 20 15:16:43 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:16:43 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Booming 90s left pockets of poverty - December 20, 2001
Message-ID: <3C22715B.21571442@ssz.com>


For the sake of the children indeed...

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/20/us.poverty.ap/index.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jei at cc.hut.fi  Thu Dec 20 07:23:36 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:23:36 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [osint] Reverse wiretaps placed on law enforcement phones (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:49:26 -0600
From: mark hopkins 
Reply-To: osint at yahoogroups.com
To: Spy News , OSINT 
Subject: [osint] Reverse wiretaps placed on law enforcement phones

Very interesting story -- hadn't heard anything about this up to now.

/mark

Rizzn's Wartime Factbook: http://factbook.diaryland.com/
The Best UAV: http://www.unmannedaircraft.com
----- Original Message ----- 
More on the Isreal spy ring in the USA.

NEWSMAX REPORTS:

The discovery of a major spy ring inside the United States is straining the 
already tense relations with Israel. Although, Israel denied any involvement 
with the penetration of the U.S. wiretap system, the CIA and FBI are 
investigating the direct government ties to the former Israeli military and 
intelligence officials now being held by the Justice Department.

One major drug bust operation planned by the Los Angeles police was foiled 
by what now appear to be reverse wiretaps placed on law enforcement phones 
by the criminal spy ring.

more..

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/18/224826.shtml


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


--------------------------
Brooks Isoldi, editor
bisoldi at intellnet.org

http://www.intellnet.org

  Post message: osint at yahoogroups.com
  Subscribe:    osint-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Thu Dec 20 07:39:44 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:39:44 +0200 (EET)
Subject: CYBERWAR: Government Internet Snooping: Out of Control?
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:53:03 -0600
From: mark hopkins 
Reply-To: osint at yahoogroups.com
To: OSINT 
Subject: [osint] CYBERWAR: Government Internet Snooping: Out of Control?


Rizzn's Wartime Factbook: http://factbook.diaryland.com/
The Best UAV: http://www.unmannedaircraft.com
> http://www.ecommercetimes.com/perl/story/15364.html
>
> Government Internet Snooping: Out of Control?
>
> By Jay Lyman
> www.NewsFactor.com,
> Part of the NewsFactor Network
> December 18, 2001
>
> Despite an unwillingness to criticize the government and its Magic Lantern
> plans, most antivirus experts assert that no computer worm is a good worm.
>
> While no one wants to stand in the way of the U.S. government and its use
of
> technology to tackle terrorism, privacy advocates and security experts
> continue to express the same low-tech concerns -- that oversight of
> government snooping is inadequate and that the United States has proven it
> cannot keep the information it collects safe.
>
> Law enforcement officials have received even broader powers thanks to
recent
> antiterrorism legislation, such as the PATRIOT Act and cyber-terrorism
laws,
> which allows wider application of electronic surveillance with less
> obtrusive warrant requirements.
>
> Civil libertarians have focused much of their attention on the Federal
> Bureau of Investigation's e-mail scanning DCS1000, better known as
> Carnivore, and its deployment on large Internet service provider (ISP)
> networks.
>
> In addition, the FBI admitted last week that it is developing a computer
> worm capable of recording and transmitting data to investigators -- the
> project called "Magic Lantern."
> http://www.ecommercetimes.com/perl/story/15301.html
>
> New Tech, Old Problems
>
> Despite an unwillingness to criticize the government and its Magic Lantern
> plans, most antivirus experts assert that no computer worm is a good worm.
>
> Concerns center on a lack of control over a virus on the Internet and the
> fear that Magic Lantern, which the government reportedly plans to ask
> antivirus vendors to allow through their security screens, would provide
an
> attack avenue for other viruses that emulate it.
>
> Electronic Privacy Information Center legislative counsel Chris Hoofnagle
> told NewsFactor Network that regardless of the technology -- Carnivore,
> Magic Lantern or anything else -- the same concerns apply.
>
> "The FBI has always underestimated the amount of process they need, which
is
> natural -- it's a zealous defense of law enforcement," he said. "What
review
> or court oversight will the FBI deem appropriate for the use of new
> technology? The challenge is keeping the FBI honest about the amount of
> court oversight."
>
> Beyond Government
>
> Hoofnagle also expressed concern that any technology used by the
government
> is likely to make its way into the hands of non-government individuals as
> well as foreign governments.
>
> "These surveillance techniques are not limited to the American
government,"
> he said. "That needs to be thought through."
>
> Hoofnagle argued for privacy protections, adding that government
> technologies -- such as Carnivore, which was discovered after its mention
> during an FBI trade show address -- are difficult to uncover.
>
> "There is not a general way to figure out what the government or National
> Security Agency might be developing on their own," Hoofnagle said. "So you
> never know what's going on out there."
>
> Insecure With Uncle Sam
>
> http://www.securityfocus.com/
> Security Focus incident analyst Ryan Russell told NewsFactor that in
> addition to privacy concerns, there is a mistrust of government and its
> handling of personal or sensitive information.
>
>
> "Nobody's real thrilled with the government's record of securing its own
> stuff," Russell said. "Even if you're not worried about abuse of
authority,
> what about the computer the stuff is actually stored on? Is it going to be
> stored on one of the computers the [General Accounting Office] keeps
> faulting?"
>
> Holding the Keys
>
> Russell said that while the security community is predominately opposed to
> giving government the keys to encryption, a better model is to have
private
> companies hold secure data and provide law enforcement with access to it.
>
> Both Russell and Hoofnagle said the biggest concern for computer users is
> probably the fact that recent legislation has established lighter warrant
> requirements for e-mail and Internet surveillance.
>
> "Once the U.S. Attorney certifies that the application of Carnivore is
> relevant to an ongoing investigation, the judge's discretion stops,"
> Hoofnagle said.
>
> "We're always skeptical, we're always questioning. 'Trust us' isn't
> sufficient."
>


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--------------------------
Brooks Isoldi, editor
bisoldi at intellnet.org

http://www.intellnet.org

  Post message: osint at yahoogroups.com
  Subscribe:    osint-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
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From aphex at nullify.org  Thu Dec 20 15:41:47 2001
From: aphex at nullify.org (Keith Ray)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:41:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: nymserv released under GPL
Message-ID: <1008891707.3c22773b8b3c6@nullify.org>


----- Forwarded message from David Mazieres  -----
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:34:21 -0500 (EST)
From: David Mazieres 
Subject: Re: Nym server code license
To: erik at aarg.net,aphex at nullify.org

Okay, I just added a GPL license to the software.  If you email/finger
 to get the latest version, you will see my
copyright on the file.

David

----- End forwarded message -----




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec 20 17:54:06 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:54:06 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: <20011220213037.29329.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: 
  
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011220175406.007c5880@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:30 PM 12/20/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>> A token-based remailer system, while an "obvious" system, would be a 
>> major accomplishment.
>
>Any kind of privacy-enhanced token/payment/value system would be a
>major accomplishment at this point.  The c'punks have been in biz for
>almost ten years now, and private payments have always been probably
>the #1 goal, and we are _further_ from having a private payment system
>now than we were ten years ago.  We've got the math.  We don't have
>the software or the business, though.
>
>The reasons for this have been debated over and over.  We're at an
>impasse.

Its not possible for the mousetrap builders to generate interest
in the better stopping of mice.  We don't control the silos of grain
nor the investors therein.  Do not thrash your soul over this.




From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Dec 20 17:56:56 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:56:56 -0800
Subject: Lynx fraud
Message-ID: <3C2296E7.D4E2F36F@cdc.gov>


At 10:23 AM 12/21/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>The officials planted three separate samples of Canadian lynx
>hair on rubbing posts used to identify existence of the creatures in
the
>two national forests. DNA testing of two of the samples matched that of
a
>lynx living inside an animal preserve. The third DNA sample matched
that of
>an escaped pet lynx being held in a federal office until its owner
>retrieved it, federal officials said.<<
>
>Knights gambit declined,red Queen to centre.In the AP essay jim says
that

Despite both your premedicated ability to see connections, even those
that aren't there, you both miss the metaphor: they're wanting
to prohibit LYNX, a nonMS browser, and the damn furry-eared
cat is a scratch monkey.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 19 23:03:29 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:03:29 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220175440.00a2ddb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>All it claims to be is a system that allows private/corporate ownership 
of goods where decisions are made by private (versus government) decision 
and of course "free market." <<

Why is AP frowned on? It seems to fit the paradigm. Along with 
slavery,overfishing,overlogging,drugdealing and so on.

Please dont arrest me officer,Im an anarcho-capitalist!




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 19 23:14:44 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:14:44 +1100
Subject: Talley and gbroiles offline taken offline by Speakeasy, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220180625.00a6a020@pop.useoz.com>


I recently got a phone call from my ISP RE:The Pacifier,spitting the dummy 
letters.J.Thomson the lawyer was harassing them and calling them 
twits,stating that the FBI had been informed about me and so on.Some of the 
mans charm shines through the pacifier letters.Oh he also claimed to have 
knowledge of various depraved or naughty websites that I surfed to!
Seems if someone well heeled can hassle your ISP enough then *you*may be 
blamed for the wasted time at the ISP.
Ill send a copy of AP to Speakeasy if you send one to Useoz.com.




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 20 08:33:46 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:33:46 +0200
Subject: AP Al quim
References:  
  <20011219233152.GA29569@rearviewmirror.org>
Message-ID: <07f401c18974$18ea6270$5600a8c0@mark>


From: "Matt Beland" 

> It's not worth the effort. It's not worth the effort. It won't make a
> damn bit of difference.
>
> Oh, fuckit.

:) Think of it like this: I'm not replying for the sake of convincing the
idiot, but for those "close to the edge" who might be influenced by Choate
if he's not challenged.

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 00:58:31 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:58:31 +1100
Subject: The Vindicator
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220195656.00a6b320@pop.useoz.com>


Osvaldo Bayer

Argentinian anarchist, writer, historian.


Osvaldo Bayer was born in Santa Fi in 1927. He studied History in the 
University of Hamburg from 1952 to 1956. Returned to Argentina, dedicating 
himself to the media, to the historical investigation & cinematographic 
scripts. He worked in the daily Graphical News, the patagsnico Esquel & 
Bugler, of which he was writing secretary, & in diverse magazines. He was 
Secretary General of the Union of Press from 1959 to 1962. His book the 
Rebellious Patagonia & the film of the same name were persecuted & had to 
leave the country in 1975. Bayer lived in exile, in Berlin, until his 
return to Buenos Aires, in 1983.
At the moment Osvaldo Bayer collaborates on Pagina/12 & has published the 
following books: Severino Di Giovanni, the idealist of violencia(1970); The 
Rebellious Patagonia (the avengers of the tragic Patagonia, 1972-76 four 
volumes); The expropiating anarchists (1974); Radowitzky, martyr or 
assassin? (1974); The Rosales, an Argentine tragedy (1974); Exile (1984, in 
collaboration with Juan Gelman). The Maffia was the scriptwriter of films 
(1972); The Rebellious Patagonia (1974); Everything is absence (1983); 
Group of forty: exile and return (1984); Juan, as if nothing had happened 
(1986); The friend (1989); America Love (1989); Elizabeth (1990); The 
vindicador (1991) & Military Pantheon (1992); last the six in coproduction 
with Germany.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 01:02:38 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:02:38 +1100
Subject: Viva argentina libre! Viva anarqia! VIVA!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220200020.00a6deb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ws/2001/63/south_america.html




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 01:12:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:12:20 +1100
Subject: "Anarcho-capitalism:"From each according to their gullibility,
  to each, according to his greed."
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220201046.00a6d5f0@pop.useoz.com>


Attack of the anarcho-hucksters...http://www.radio4all.org/anarchy/huckster.html




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 01:22:34 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:22:34 +1100
Subject: State of Emergency.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220202044.00a70720@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=108500&group=webcast

It has been a eventful day and a long night in Argentina. The day started 
with massive looting which only increased in number and size as the day 
passed. ...




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 01:31:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:31:49 +1100
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220202904.00a700e0@pop.useoz.com>


Sunder>>I'm afraid we wouldn't make a very good road show...

True for me and you and all,Still I just luv the subject headline,conjures 
up delightful imagery. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 01:57:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:57:25 +1100
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220204223.00a73c30@pop.useoz.com>


 >>A token-based remailer system, while an "obvious" system, would be a
major accomplishment.

--Tim May
"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone
   with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later
   convinces himself." -- David Friedman

A major target if "napstered".The best way to bring in the enormous systems 
required
by crypto-anarchy is with AP protection.This is possible when AP is seen as 
the essential new back-up justice system it is.Not one of the "horsemen" or 
"extremely dark markets" Its mistaken for or misrepresented as.The problem 
timmy and david would clearly have with AP to their beloved 
"anarcho-capitalism" can be seen at...
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/ddfr.html

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/leftlib.html

and...http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html

Yet AP remains the actual summit of anarcho-capitalism! Tim and david dont 
even believe their own arguments.




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Dec 20 21:00:44 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:00:44 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011220175406.007c5880@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <20011220213037.29329.qmail@sidereal.kz>
  
  
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220205553.03809b30@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 05:54 PM 12/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>At 09:30 PM 12/20/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> >> A token-based remailer system, while an "obvious" system, would be a
> >> major accomplishment.
> >
> >Any kind of privacy-enhanced token/payment/value system would be a
> >major accomplishment at this point.  The c'punks have been in biz for
> >almost ten years now, and private payments have always been probably
> >the #1 goal, and we are _further_ from having a private payment system
> >now than we were ten years ago.  We've got the math.  We don't have
> >the software or the business, though.
> >
> >The reasons for this have been debated over and over.  We're at an
> >impasse.
>
>Its not possible for the mousetrap builders to generate interest
>in the better stopping of mice.  We don't control the silos of grain
>nor the investors therein.  Do not thrash your soul over this.

I disagree.  We should all be ashamed.  The main reason we don't have the 
private payment system many have discussed is lazyness/"better things to do 
with their time" by those with the technical ability to create the SW (if I 
were one of them the SW would be done by now, as I've easily spent 1-2 many 
years and $10Ks trying to get others to write the code).  Funding the 
payment system, as Tim has noted, is not that hard.

steve




From hilborn at millionairemail.com  Thu Dec 20 21:07:21 2001
From: hilborn at millionairemail.com (hilborn at millionairemail.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:07:21 -0800
Subject: CHEAP PRESCRIPTIONS ON-LINE
Message-ID: 

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From nobody at dizum.com  Thu Dec 20 12:10:21 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:10:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: <6d4fb9768d2972af64f712495f851276@dizum.com>


Len Sassaman writes:

> I've been thinking about how to create pay-per-use remailers for some
> time. The reasons for needing a remailer payment system are obvious: aside
> from handling spamming and flooding, it would encourage more people to run
> remailers. If a remailer operator can expect to make money off of a
> remailer, or at least recoup his losses, he's more likely to do so.
> (Discussion of how liability changes when money is involved is for a
> different time.)
>
> "Digital cash" in the traditional sense isn't necessary for a pay-per-use
> remailer system. Like MojoNation, I am going to refer to the digital cash
> coins as something that has no monetary value in the traditional sense.

This contradicts your previous point.  If the coins have no monetary
value, that is, they can't be spent for anything useful, then it will
not be possible to meet your objectives of allowing a remailer operator
to make money off his remailer or at least recoup his losses.  You can
give someone all the Monopoly money in the world and it won't encourage
them to go into the business.

And the real sticking point is if these remailer tokens are not based
on cash, how do the remailer users get them?  If they just send in a
request and are given them for free, then there is little point to the
whole exercise.  You could charge hashcash for them as was proposed
earlier, but then you might just as well use hashcash directly in the
remailer chain.

If the tokens are non-free, that will raise the costs of running pingers
and cover traffic.  Of the 5000 messages a large remailer handles per
day, surely the majority will fall into this category.  Making people
pay for remailers will drive down usage levels (by standard economics)
and make the remailers less secure.

Digital cash tokens must be checked in real time with the bank for
validity.  Otherwise you have a double spending problem.  (Hashcash
avoids this by embedding the payee in the token.)  That will increase
the complexity of the remailer, the amount of traffic it must support,
and give more information to eavesdroppers.

Clearly it is mandatory to use fully blinded cash/tokens for this
application.  For some situations blinding is not all that important,
but for remailer chains it is absolutely essential.  Otherwise the bank
would be able to trace messages through the remailer network.  Hence you
will run into the complicated patent situation which will exist at least
through 2005.

> If the remailer client were to keep track of which tokens were paid to
> which remailer, the user could determine where in a chain message delivery
> failed, or if the message exited the last hop (not exactly the same as if
> it was delivered, but close. The last remailer could cheat, or the
> recipient's mail server could fail. There's ways to improve this, though.)

The same thing could be achieved by putting a nonce into each message
packet which the remailers would publish.  The user knows the chain of
nonces he used and can determine whether his message made it through
the remailer.  Something like this was suggested by John Gilmore several
years ago.

The bottom line is that while the idea is seductive, ultimately it
doesn't make sense.  Charging for remailers would make them harder to
use (adding the overhead of figuring out how to get tokens and possibly
paying for them), less secure (opening new lines of information for an
attacker), and less anonymous (since fewer people would use the network).
There are other, equally good methods for increasing remailer reliability.
Since people appear to be adequately motivated to run remailers even
without profits, there is no need to move to a system which would add
cash tokens with all of their attendant disadvantages.




From schear at lvcm.com  Thu Dec 20 21:23:47 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:23:47 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: <20011220235250.GA26508@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220210119.03751688@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 11:52 PM 12/20/2001 +0000, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>As much as I love the idea of using electronic cash for remailers,
>given the current state of things, I think it's not the first thing
>which should be done for remailers.
>
>1) We don't yet *have* an electronic cash system with sufficient volume to
>cover this -- you'd want a general-use electronic cash system where
>purposes like this were a small part, otherwise the billing records
>show all remailer users.  (unless you used a system like hashcash,
>which will eliminate spam, but not compensate remailer operators)
>
>2) Remailed messages would fall into the "millicent ghetto" -- how
>much do you think messages will cost?  If the goal is ecash, why not
>focus on higher-value but clear market-demand apps?  If the goal is
>improving remailers, there are some other things which can be done
>first (and which are essential steps to an ecash based remailer
>anyway).  If the goal is actually ecash-based remailers just as a cool
>thing, then please do the other fixes first anyway :)
>
>3) Ease of use -- it's hard enough to run mixmaster already.  The low
>hanging fruit would be in automating key management, packaging *well*
>for debian, redhat, etc., and fixing a bunch of the random bugs in
>mixmaster which cause it to blow up on certain From: addresses.  If it
>were possible to run mixmaster 3 with *no* real user intervention (no
>need to subscribe to flamey mailing lists, no need to manually fuck
>with people who change keys, no need to watch a list to edit people's
>capstrings, etc. -- then more people would run remailers.

I don't run a mixmaster because:
  - its not been easy to get running
  - it uses SMTP ports which are filtered on my AT&T cable system.  The 
remailer reference lists need to include port number references so users on 
these "restricted" ISPs can participate.  Since the traffic is encrypted it 
might make sense for operators to choose port numbers used by P2P 
applications which currently encrypt traffic (I believe Morpheus does).
  - it didn't run under Windows (until the other day)


>This goes double for clients.  In the case of remailers, increasing
>volume *does* enhance privacy; if we didn't care about volume, we'd
>just use a bunch of rooted boxes through netcafes to send high-value
>anonymous messages...remailers are only useful with volume, and
>legitimate applications make them easier to defend.

There needs to be an automated way to anonymously and securely determine if 
your messages have gotten stuck at a particular remailer.



>There's certainly a need to compensate remailer operators, but the
>$10/month or so a remailer network would likely provide through ecash
>is probably not the way to do it.  What does it cost to run a
>remailer:
>
>* A box (pretty low spec; mine is a 533Mhz celeron and does other
>   stuff too, and has never had a problem)
>* Reasonable network connectivity (56Kbps fulltime, DSL,
>   leased...maybe moving on to DSL or leased at a minimum for
>   interesting stuff)
>* Some level of agility or fault-tolerance on the link, so you can
>   operate in the face of complaints
>* A "fuck the law" attitude (.45s or J.D. optional)
>
>What do remailer operators want:
>* Ego boost
>* "Doing something cool"
>* Social respect from peers.
>* Low overhead and hassle
>* Entertainment (I *love* reading abuse at remailer.havenco.com)
>* Personal use of remailer for nefarious purposes (freedom of anonymity only
>   truly belongs to he who owns the anonymizer)
>
>
>I think the best way to get remailers widely deployed is:
>
>1) Create a version of mixmaster which is much more self-running, at
>least on UNIX, OSX, and cygwin, and allows cpunks, mixmaster, and
>maybe future constant-rate or stego or other interesting transports as
>plugins -- make keying be a policy decision but with the code smart
>enough to handle updates within authority delegated to it by the
>operator.
>
>2) Make it easy to install a remailer; "apt-get install mixmaster" and
>maybe a few questions, all of which should have sensible defaults, so
>you can just hold down return and get a working, productive (if not
>optimal) remailer.
>
>3) Promote the remailer and applications which make use of the
>remailer (there's nothing I've seen, other than pingers and remailer
>infrastructure, which uses remailers programmatically in some cool
>way.  Some kind of ok-with-high-latency application -- ecash tunneled
>through remailers?  Another blacknet test?  An anonymous-only message
>board?  Web publishing?  Whatever.
>
>4) Some kind of internal or external benefits to remailer operators.
>Something along the lines of "I will throw a party at DefCon with free
>(heh) ---- and -----s for the first 20 people who can prove control of
>mixmaster remailer keys which transit test messages I send throughout
>the year (selected based on normal client criteria, such as uptime,
>latency, etc.)".  Someone could presumably donate money in a similar
>fashion.  This would provide some level of decoupling from "bank
>accounts of those who sponsor remailers" and "remailer users".
>("convince legions of 18-25 year old females that remailer operators
>are the best in bed" would be ideal, but is probably not going to happen)



>
>6) Deal with the spam issue -- integrate something like nilsima into
>mixmaster directly, none of this procmail hackery (which I haven't
>bothered to configure myself).  This would eliminate "whitelists" and
>other cruft which decrease the reliability of the remailer network
>substantially.  Doesn't stop mailing list or newsgroup spam, but it's
>fucking 2001 (almost 2002) -- if you care that much about the 0.1
>seconds of time to delete a piece of spam, your list should be
>filtered, moderated, or posting limited to subscribers only.

I won't run an exit remailer because of the obvious risks  Does Ian G's 
Hotmail exit code still work?  Is this practical?


>7) Provide a UI which doesn't suck for users -- including better
>web-based interfaces (perhaps as part of the base distribution?) with
>anti-spam measures (mixmaster+nilsima may be enough, but "copy this
>image number down" might be needed.

The only client I frequently used was Geoff Keating's Java applet.  It was 
excellent and simple.  Has anyone looked into freshening it up?

steve




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Dec 20 13:30:37 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 20 Dec 2001 21:30:37 -0000
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To:  (message
  from Tim May on Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:33:54 -0800)
References: 
Message-ID: <20011220213037.29329.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> A token-based remailer system, while an "obvious" system, would be a 
> major accomplishment.

Any kind of privacy-enhanced token/payment/value system would be a
major accomplishment at this point.  The c'punks have been in biz for
almost ten years now, and private payments have always been probably
the #1 goal, and we are _further_ from having a private payment system
now than we were ten years ago.  We've got the math.  We don't have
the software or the business, though.

The reasons for this have been debated over and over.  We're at an
impasse.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 02:41:28 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:41:28 +1100
Subject: prisoners dilemma 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220213112.00a718e0@pop.useoz.com>


anarchy is possible
The results of Axelrod studies prove that under certain conditions 
cooperation among individuals can emerge and be stable without the need of 
a central authority, regardless of the selfish or altruist nature of the 
interactants.
http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/8733/ipd.html

Possible to have smuggled posts from former list members published? Several 
books have been written this way.
Information does want to be free.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 04:20:14 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:20:14 +1100
Subject: That the "anarcho"-capitalist is trying to have it both ways. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011220231750.00a31e10@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secF6.html

Are so-called anarcho-capitalists really statists? Discuss.




From ryan at havenco.com  Thu Dec 20 15:52:50 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:52:50 +0000
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: <20011220235250.GA26508@atreides.havenco.com>


As much as I love the idea of using electronic cash for remailers,
given the current state of things, I think it's not the first thing
which should be done for remailers.

1) We don't yet *have* an electronic cash system with sufficient volume to
cover this -- you'd want a general-use electronic cash system where
purposes like this were a small part, otherwise the billing records
show all remailer users.  (unless you used a system like hashcash,
which will eliminate spam, but not compensate remailer operators)

2) Remailed messages would fall into the "millicent ghetto" -- how
much do you think messages will cost?  If the goal is ecash, why not
focus on higher-value but clear market-demand apps?  If the goal is
improving remailers, there are some other things which can be done
first (and which are essential steps to an ecash based remailer
anyway).  If the goal is actually ecash-based remailers just as a cool
thing, then please do the other fixes first anyway :)

3) Ease of use -- it's hard enough to run mixmaster already.  The low
hanging fruit would be in automating key management, packaging *well*
for debian, redhat, etc., and fixing a bunch of the random bugs in
mixmaster which cause it to blow up on certain From: addresses.  If it
were possible to run mixmaster 3 with *no* real user intervention (no
need to subscribe to flamey mailing lists, no need to manually fuck
with people who change keys, no need to watch a list to edit people's
capstrings, etc. -- then more people would run remailers.

This goes double for clients.  In the case of remailers, increasing
volume *does* enhance privacy; if we didn't care about volume, we'd
just use a bunch of rooted boxes through netcafes to send high-value
anonymous messages...remailers are only useful with volume, and
legitimate applications make them easier to defend.


There's certainly a need to compensate remailer operators, but the
$10/month or so a remailer network would likely provide through ecash
is probably not the way to do it.  What does it cost to run a
remailer:

* A box (pretty low spec; mine is a 533Mhz celeron and does other
  stuff too, and has never had a problem)
* Reasonable network connectivity (56Kbps fulltime, DSL,
  leased...maybe moving on to DSL or leased at a minimum for
  interesting stuff)
* Some level of agility or fault-tolerance on the link, so you can
  operate in the face of complaints
* A "fuck the law" attitude (.45s or J.D. optional)

What do remailer operators want:
* Ego boost
* "Doing something cool"
* Social respect from peers.
* Low overhead and hassle
* Entertainment (I *love* reading abuse at remailer.havenco.com)
* Personal use of remailer for nefarious purposes (freedom of anonymity only
  truly belongs to he who owns the anonymizer)


I think the best way to get remailers widely deployed is:

1) Create a version of mixmaster which is much more self-running, at
least on UNIX, OSX, and cygwin, and allows cpunks, mixmaster, and
maybe future constant-rate or stego or other interesting transports as
plugins -- make keying be a policy decision but with the code smart
enough to handle updates within authority delegated to it by the
operator.

2) Make it easy to install a remailer; "apt-get install mixmaster" and
maybe a few questions, all of which should have sensible defaults, so
you can just hold down return and get a working, productive (if not
optimal) remailer.

3) Promote the remailer and applications which make use of the
remailer (there's nothing I've seen, other than pingers and remailer
infrastructure, which uses remailers programmatically in some cool
way.  Some kind of ok-with-high-latency application -- ecash tunneled
through remailers?  Another blacknet test?  An anonymous-only message
board?  Web publishing?  Whatever.

4) Some kind of internal or external benefits to remailer operators.
Something along the lines of "I will throw a party at DefCon with free
(heh) ---- and -----s for the first 20 people who can prove control of
mixmaster remailer keys which transit test messages I send throughout
the year (selected based on normal client criteria, such as uptime,
latency, etc.)".  Someone could presumably donate money in a similar
fashion.  This would provide some level of decoupling from "bank
accounts of those who sponsor remailers" and "remailer users".
("convince legions of 18-25 year old females that remailer operators
are the best in bed" would be ideal, but is probably not going to happen)

5) Get more companies, universities, and non-profits to run remailers,
as they have machines, relatively untouchable network feeds.  Why is
there no EFF remailer?  Why is there no ACLU remailer?  Why is there
no ZKS remailer?  I mainly started the havenco remailer for social
and intellectual purposes, but there are slight marketing benefits to
it as well.  I'm sure people (me.  you?) would be willing to provide
time to help worthwhile organizations set up remailers.  Back in the
day big companies would run public ftp sites for the common good; I
think any organization dealing with any volume of mail today should
feel socially pressured to run a remailer.
  
6) Deal with the spam issue -- integrate something like nilsima into
mixmaster directly, none of this procmail hackery (which I haven't
bothered to configure myself).  This would eliminate "whitelists" and
other cruft which decrease the reliability of the remailer network
substantially.  Doesn't stop mailing list or newsgroup spam, but it's
fucking 2001 (almost 2002) -- if you care that much about the 0.1
seconds of time to delete a piece of spam, your list should be
filtered, moderated, or posting limited to subscribers only.

7) Provide a UI which doesn't suck for users -- including better
web-based interfaces (perhaps as part of the base distribution?) with
anti-spam measures (mixmaster+nilsima may be enough, but "copy this
image number down" might be needed.

8) Some kind of two-way communications -- which I will happily host,
as I'm sure others will as well -- providing remailer-accessed
mailboxes, return addresses, etc.  Less private, more linkable, but
still pretty anonymous, as you could require all the messages to be 
encrypted (or not), and the initial user-to-mailbox delivery is
reliable; even if the remailer network is unreliable, you could do
return receipts with your own client such that it will retransmit
through the chain of remailers a couple times if need be, until you
can guarantee receipt, before deleting from the server.  Most of the
"antisocial" remailer-facilitated activities are hit-and-run; most of
the *good* remailer uses require a persistent identity and two-way 
communications.  (and, paying for a real mailbox is something which is
not in the millicent ghetto; $20/year for a mailbox is entirely
common, and people might be willing to pay a substantial premium for 
anonymity)


So, while I'd really like to see ecash, I think remailers need some
other work first, before they could really benefit from the effort
required to create an ecash system from scratch, deploy it, scale it,
and then use it for this application.  Not that I'm saying an ecash
system isn't worthwhile for its own sake, though :)

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From twaddle at post.com  Fri Dec 21 10:20:44 2001
From: twaddle at post.com (twaddle at post.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:20:44 -1800
Subject: Sign Up and make over 786% per annum on your investments.                23475
Message-ID: <00006c6c6fd9$00000994$000009cd@ob-mail-com.mr.outblaze.com>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 05:54:35 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:54:35 +1100
Subject: Good Punkrockin' tonight.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221003551.00a2d660@pop.useoz.com>


 >>"``It's about time for artists to take control of their work and how it 
is presented to our fans,'' said Dexter Holland of the band Offspring, 
which will perform as part of the effort." [...] .g -- "Sometimes I use 
google instead of pants." <<

Pretty fly for a white guy,the original pranksters,are you OK 
annie?Renegades of funk.Your number is one.Its about time
we all take control of our work...with crypto-anarchy.Real anarchy,not tim 
mays cheap jackshit knockoff.anarcho-capitalism.Capitalism is looking down 
the barrel of a mofo cannon as any fule no.

Punk was much more than fad or fashion; it demonstrated the fractal effect 
in culture, showing how small events, the acts of a few people, can cause 
ripples around the world. Punk demanded and received a response
Punk's attack on the establishment and institutions of the day, its 
willingness to exploit taboos for fun and profit, was supremely effective 
at getting up noses. So what, for all its loudmouth posturing, is punk's 
legacy?
Damning God and the state, work and leisure, home and family, sex and play, 
the audience and itself, the music briefly made it possible to experience 
all these things as if they were not natural facts but ideological 
constructs: things that had been made and therefore could be altered, or 
done away with altogether. It became possible to see those things as bad 
jokes and for the music to come forth as a better joke
The charts for three guitar chords (A, E and G) above a simple exhortation: 
"Now form a band." For many people, that defined punk. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 06:49:31 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 01:49:31 +1100
Subject: IRS Agent Goes Berserk, Cops refuse to prosecute, and AP
  candidates 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221014302.00a3c130@pop.useoz.com>


 >>You know, historically, when there is no reliable justice system,
society gets blood feuds,
etc.   When the justice system is unreliable for sheeple but reliable
for a special class,
maybe AP *does* have a future.  Meanwhile the traditional bag of cash &
friend of a friend
will have to do.<<

Back to the future.The wild west with computers.Westworld.Vigilante justice 
in slow motion via AP gives bad guys and gals time to "Get out of Dodge!"
If AP doesnt have a future soon,real soon,I dont think any of us have.

  Dreaming Of Ewe
http://www.nuku.com/android.html




From g12190 at china.com  Fri Dec 21 01:41:51 2001
From: g12190 at china.com (g12190 at china.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:41:51 -0500
Subject: Government Grants Information Package........                         9287
Message-ID: <00006ff572e5$00002b96$00002447@Mail.ee>

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From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Dec 21 06:35:47 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:35:47 -0800
Subject: Utah go boom, not in the public domain
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011221063547.00796780@sarin.com>>


                 One report currently being investigated by U.S.
intelligence officials came from Pakistani Inter-Service
                 Intelligence sources who had conducted an interrogation of
a "terrorist suspect" in early November. Under
                 "coercion," the suspect said that agents of bin Laden had
smuggled two portable nuclear weapons into the
                 United States, according to the report seen by a U.S.
government expert.

                 The government expert, who has had access to the Pakistani
investigation, said ISI provided "the highest
                 levels of the U.S. government" with materials from the ISI
interrogation including a summary of the suspect's
                 confession, which this source had seen. The summary did
not give the specific dates of the smuggling, the
                 method, or time of entry. The suspect said only that the
smuggling had been carried out, the U.S.
                 government expert said.

                 The sources of the report "were current ISI officers who
had kept contact with U.S. counterparts" they had
                 known from the 1980s, this U.S. government expert said.
The summary was accompanied by "collateral" or
                 supporting documents, he said. The package was given to
senior U.S. officials in mid-November.

                 The ISI had not rated the report's credibility but felt it
important enough to alert the U.S. government, this
                 source said.

                 "What was disconcerting about the (suspect's) information
was that he knew details of the activation of the
                 weapons and their construction that are not in the public
domain," the U.S. expert analyst said.

.......
"Coercion" is a nice word for raping his wife? 
--
foo




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Dec 21 06:36:26 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:36:26 -0800
Subject: Utah go boom, not in the public domain
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011221063626.0079fdf0@sarin.com>>


http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20122001-044449-5310r
                 One report currently being investigated by U.S.
intelligence officials came from Pakistani Inter-Service
                 Intelligence sources who had conducted an interrogation of
a "terrorist suspect" in early November. Under
                 "coercion," the suspect said that agents of bin Laden had
smuggled two portable nuclear weapons into the
                 United States, according to the report seen by a U.S.
government expert.

                 The government expert, who has had access to the Pakistani
investigation, said ISI provided "the highest
                 levels of the U.S. government" with materials from the ISI
interrogation including a summary of the suspect's
                 confession, which this source had seen. The summary did
not give the specific dates of the smuggling, the
                 method, or time of entry. The suspect said only that the
smuggling had been carried out, the U.S.
                 government expert said.

                 The sources of the report "were current ISI officers who
had kept contact with U.S. counterparts" they had
                 known from the 1980s, this U.S. government expert said.
The summary was accompanied by "collateral" or
                 supporting documents, he said. The package was given to
senior U.S. officials in mid-November.

                 The ISI had not rated the report's credibility but felt it
important enough to alert the U.S. government, this
                 source said.

                 "What was disconcerting about the (suspect's) information
was that he knew details of the activation of the
                 weapons and their construction that are not in the public
domain," the U.S. expert analyst said.

.......
"Coercion" is a nice word for raping his wife? 
--
foo




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Dec 21 06:36:32 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:36:32 -0800
Subject: All your MicrosoftOSes are belong to us
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011221063632.007982a0@sarin.com>>


All your MicrosoftOSes are belong to us
and we don't have to do squat.


WASHINGTON  Microsoft's newest version of Windows, billed as the most
secure ever, contains several serious flaws 
that allow hackers to steal or destroy a victim's data files across the
Internet or implant rogue computer software. The company 
released a free fix Thursday.

A Microsoft official acknowledged that the risk to consumers was
unprecedented because the glitches allow hackers to seize 
control of all Windows XP operating system software without requiring a
computer user to do anything except connect to the 
Internet.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7050-2001Dec20.html
--
foo




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Dec 21 06:44:45 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:44:45 -0800
Subject: US neglects to include Saudi responsibility in 'translation' of
  OBL tape
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011221064445.00795100@sarin.com>>


A new ABCNEWS translation of the Osama bin Laden videotape released last
week reveals information that may be
embarrassing to Saudi Arabia, a very important U.S. ally.  Bin Laden Hunt
Strains U.S-Saudi Relations  Excerpts of
the Bin Laden Video Weigh In  Poll: Americans Believe Toughest Battles Ahead

                    When the videotape of Osama bin Laden talking about the
Sept. 11 terror attacks was
                    released by the United States government on Dec. 13,
administration officials spoke at length
                    about the extensive effort to achieve a full and
accurate transcript. 

                    The translation commissioned by ABCNEWS, however,
reveals new elements that raise
                    questions about what the government left out of the
official version and why. 

                    The new translation uncovers statements that could be
embarrassing to the government of
                    Saudi Arabia, a very important U.S. ally. Bin Laden's
visitor, Khalid al Harbi, a Saudi
                    dissident, claims that he was smuggled into Afghanistan
by a member of Saudi Arabia's
                    religious police. 

                    He also tells bin Laden that in Saudi Arabia, several
prominent clerics  some with
                    connections to the Saudi government  made speeches
supporting the attacks on America. 

                    "Right at the time of the strike on America, he gave a
very moving speech, Sheikh Abdulah al
                    Baraak," bin Laden said on the tape. "And he deserves
thanks for that."

Sheikh al Baraak, to whom the visitor refers, is a professor at a
government university and a member of an influential
council on religious law.

"It shows that bin Laden's support is not limited to the radical side of
Islam but also among the Saudi religious
establishment," says Fawaz Gerges, professor of Middle Eastern studies at
Sarah Lawrence College. "And that is
bad news for Saudi Arabia."

.....
US protecting foreign tyrants, but hey, gas is cheap,
and it only cost a spook, a marine's foot, a few thou newyorkers (and some
of them were traders ferchrissakes, like NYPD corpses they're divine
payback) and look at how the flag industry stimulated the economy and
enhanced trade with WTO-China Inc
another great bunch of freedom loving folks




From ryan at havenco.com  Thu Dec 20 22:54:41 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:54:41 +0000
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220210119.03751688@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <20011220235250.GA26508@atreides.havenco.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011220210119.03751688@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <20011221065441.A22020@leopard.venona.net>


Quoting Steve Schear :
> 
> I don't run a mixmaster because:
>  - its not been easy to get running
>  - it uses SMTP ports which are filtered on my AT&T cable system.  The 
> remailer reference lists need to include port number references so users on 
> these "restricted" ISPs can participate.  Since the traffic is encrypted it 
> might make sense for operators to choose port numbers used by P2P 
> applications which currently encrypt traffic (I believe Morpheus does).
>  - it didn't run under Windows (until the other day)

[admittedly, I'm very biased, since I have more of a network engineering/admin
point of view than a normal end-user cypherpunk point of view]

I'm wary of doing things which violate internet standards and generally
complicate application design to support:
1) Windows users trying to run servers
2) People running reliable servers on filtered networks (just get a tunnel
if you really care)

I don't see there being a huge need for middleman/remix-only nodes.  There is 
a huge need for well-configured, production-grade exit hosts with testicular 
fortitude and a bad attitude.  Are there *any* documented cases of people 
subpoenaing more than one layer deep in a remailer net?  Or even actively
fucking with a single remailer who simply says "I keep no logs" successfully
enough to do any more than shut him down? (mixmaster, not penet)

Things like the hotmail exit code are foiled these days by the "prove you 
are a real human or a turing-test-complete AI to open an account"

Relying on services which are in violation of terms of service (running a 
remailing server on a consumer dialup or cablemodem with a no-servers
policy, abusing stupid web email providers to take the heat) is not a 
good way for high-visibility, high-abuse postions of the network to 
operate, if reliability is key (as it is for non-abusive remailer users).

Until there is evidence otherwise, I think 5-10 well-administered, 
professionally maintained remailers, run by reasonably well known
organizations, with sufficient legal firepower to defend themselves,
running a codebase which is as reliable as a standard MTA, with best-efforts
spam and abuse prevention, would provide a better service to users than 100
99% reliable remailers running on cablemodems which can be incapacitated
by a single email to noc at home.net or blown power supply or whatever.  

Simultaneously raise the bar in some ways (require better network, 
maintenance, etc.) but lower it in the ways which influence TCO for a 
professional organization (install and maintenance admin time).

Provide a way to inject messages into the system without identifying the
user as "member of the set of remailer users"; put up a web interface
accessible via a quality anonymizing proxy, or pick up encrypted messages
from USENET, or encourage dummy traffic from end users (put a nice web 
anonymizer and/or SSL web server with general-interest content right next
to the remailer, ideally, for plausible deniability, and use JS or java or 
something so normal browsing sessions and remailer-interaction sessions are
similar).

> There needs to be an automated way to anonymously and securely determine if 
> your messages have gotten stuck at a particular remailer.

Given the level of latency and standard deviation for messages, I'm not
sure if this would provide a reasonable level of quality of service, using
today's remailer population.

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Dec 21 07:06:12 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:06:12 -0800
Subject: feds were warned, but asleep
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011221070612.00797100@sarin.com>>


http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/913687.html
	
Published Dec 21 2001

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- When a Twin Cities flight instructor phoned the
FBI last August to alert the agency that a terrorist might be taking
lessons to
fly a jumbo jet, he did it in a dramatic way:

"Do you realize how serious this is?" the instructor asked an FBI agent. "This
man wants training on a 747. A 747 fully loaded with fuel could be used as a
weapon!"

The aviation student he was talking about was Zacarias
Moussaoui, who was arrested the following day and last
week was charged in a federal indictment with
conspiring with Osama bin Laden and others to carry
out the Sept. 11 attacks.

New details of how Moussaoui raised suspicions at the
Pan Am International Flight Academy in Eagan -- and
the company's eerily prescient tip -- are emerging from
the briefings the school recently gave to congressional
offices. 

The still-unidentified flight instructor became wary of Moussaoui immediately,
according to Minnesota Rep. Jim Oberstar and others with direct knowledge
of the briefings.

Moussaoui first raised eyebrows when, during a simple introductory
exchange, he said he was from France, but then didn't seem to understand
when the instructor spoke French to him. 

                 Moussaoui then became belligerent and evasive about his
background,
                 Oberstar and other sources said. In addition, he seemed
inept in basic flying
                 procedures, while seeking expensive training on an
advanced commercial jet
                 simulator. 

                 Besides alerting the FBI about Moussaoui, the school's
Phoenix office called
                 the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) early this year
about another
                 student -- Hani Hanjour, who was believed to be the pilot
of the plane that
                 flew into the Pentagon on Sept. 11. The school had raised
questions about
                 Hanjour's limited ability to speak English, the universal
language of aviation.

                 An FAA representative sat in on a class to observe
Hanjour, who was from
                 Saudi Arabia, and discussed with school officials finding
an Arabic-speaking
                 person to help him with his English, said Oberstar and
others with direct
                 knowledge of the school's briefings. 

                 Oberstar and Minnesota Rep. Martin Sabo, who also was
briefed by the
                 school, praised Pan Am for its efforts to safeguard the
skies and for passing
                 federal authorities clues to possible terrorist activities
before Sept. 11.

                 They said that, with the benefit of hindsight, it appears
that the FBI and the
                 FAA could have responded more vigorously.

                 "From what I've heard, the school was clearly more alert
than federal
                 officials," Sabo said.

-----
Whose more incompetent, the politicos who made
us such enemies or the feds who can't protect
against them?




From zielon at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 20 23:38:28 2001
From: zielon at hotmail.com (ingmar heiner)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:38:28 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

please send me da construction to make C4

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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Dec 21 08:11:46 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:11:46 -0700
Subject: Words
Message-ID: <3C235F42.2ED9EDA7@lsil.com>


mattd  wrote :
> >>...I have no doubt it will be implemented and protected viciously. I
use
>the word viciously because that is the only way to make DRM work and
there
>is a great deal of money at stake. Mike
>
>Steve Ballmer,viscious? Nah,shurley not.The early models were a little
>twitchy but the SB 2000 terminator series is for all practical
>purposes,foolproof.
>
>"I have no doubt it (AP) will be implemented and protected
>vigorously,everything is at stake." Jim Bell's handwritten note on
>cigarette paper.
>
Sometimes there is meaning in misspelled or misused words. Somtimes it
is intentional, sometimes not. I have no idea whether or not Steve
Ballmer is viscous. Maybe mattd is into something unusual and would like
to tell the whole class  ;-)

Merry subverted pagan winter solstice festival, every one,
Mike




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 15:23:12 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:23:12 +1100
Subject: FC: DNA tests show federal officials planted fake evidence of
  lynx(fwd) 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221101036.00a6fe20@pop.useoz.com>


 >>The previously unreported Forest Service investigation found that the 
science of the habitat study had been skewed by seven government officials: 
three Forest Service employees, two U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 
officials and two employees of the Washington Department of Fish and 
Wildlife. The officials planted three separate samples of Canadian lynx 
hair on rubbing posts used to identify existence of the creatures in the 
two national forests. DNA testing of two of the samples matched that of a 
lynx living inside an animal preserve. The third DNA sample matched that of 
an escaped pet lynx being held in a federal office until its owner 
retrieved it, federal officials said.<<

Knights gambit declined,red Queen to centre.In the AP essay jim says that 
while there can be no "AP Czar",He doesnt envisage AP being used against 
"lowly forest grunts".Not receiving a response to my requests for dialogue 
with the evil empire I propose that the lowly forest grunt actually makes 
more sense to use AP against.The above story Illustrates how power corrupts 
and how low on the federal food chain that corruption goes.Yet how long can 
a fascist regime last that cant protect their workers? It would be easier 
to obtain enough evidence for proof of death,DNA being the gold standard 
and the predictor could be paid with e-dinars through 
cut-outs.Alternatively through kudo's or BUMs after the collapse of 
Govts.Kill the president.
On this day,from the daily bleed.
1988 -- Animal rights terrorists fire-bomb Harrod's
department store, London, after finding poodle
fur collars on some coats.
In December 1998 it is revealed that many
fur pelts being sold in the US (coats, toys, etc)
are actually from cats & dogs falsely labeled.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/223630.asp?cp1=1
http://www.animaldefense.com/News/0999.html




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Fri Dec 21 10:30:05 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:30:05 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: 


Ryan Lackey writes:
> 1) We don't yet *have* an electronic cash system with sufficient volume to
> cover this -- you'd want a general-use electronic cash system where
> purposes like this were a small part, otherwise the billing records
> show all remailer users.

It's largely a myth that the set of users of remailers is anonymous.
Remailer operators collectively know them all; individual operators know
a substantial percentage of them if people vary the remailers they use;
anyone surveilling the remailer network knows them all.  Hiding one's
membership in the set of remailer users cannot be a high priority.

And there's no need for remailer users to be anonymous, either.  Anyone
should be proud to be counted as a member of that group.  It's no more
incriminating than being a subscriber to the cypherpunks mailing list
or any of dozens of similar lists.  No doubt thousands of people would
put their names on the list even if they have no intention of ever
using remailers.

> 3) Ease of use -- it's hard enough to run mixmaster already.  The low
> hanging fruit would be in automating key management, packaging *well*
> for debian, redhat, etc., and fixing a bunch of the random bugs in
> mixmaster which cause it to blow up on certain From: addresses.  If it
> were possible to run mixmaster 3 with *no* real user intervention (no
> need to subscribe to flamey mailing lists, no need to manually fuck
> with people who change keys, no need to watch a list to edit people's
> capstrings, etc. -- then more people would run remailers.

Part of the problem has been focus on adding features to mixmaster
rather than improving security and reliability.  Transparent remixing
(where the remailer chooses part of the path for you), support for
the old insecure cypherpunk mode, automated flood detection, all add
administrative complexity for questionable benefit.  With a good high
speed connection, floods and such are much less of an issue.  Things like
remixing should be done by the clients; it was a mistake to put this
into the remailer software.

> This goes double for clients.  In the case of remailers, increasing
> volume *does* enhance privacy; if we didn't care about volume, we'd
> just use a bunch of rooted boxes through netcafes to send high-value
> anonymous messages...remailers are only useful with volume, and
> legitimate applications make them easier to defend.

Absolutely.  For all those people saying, what can I do to support
remailers, here's an easy answer: use them.  Get a client, figure out how
it works, and send an anonymous message or two.  It doesn't hurt.  Much.
You may even find it liberating.  Challenge the orthodoxy and start
thinking for yourself.

> I think the best way to get remailers widely deployed is:

You skipped step 0, which is to inform people of what it is like to run
a remailer.  It doesn't do anyone any good for remailers to pop up and
immediately shut down when the complaints come in.  Here's a good litmus
test: if you wouldn't be able to spam at reasonably high volumes from
your address without getting shut down, you probably shouldn't be
trying to run a remailer (unless in middleman mode).

> 1) Create a version of mixmaster which is much more self-running, at
> least on UNIX, OSX, and cygwin, and allows cpunks, mixmaster, and
> maybe future constant-rate or stego or other interesting transports as
> plugins -- make keying be a policy decision but with the code smart
> enough to handle updates within authority delegated to it by the
> operator.

A good idea.  See the recent proposal for a P2P style always-connected
remailer network which will bypass sendmail and all the other RFC2822
cruft.  Plugable transports would be a great way to accomplish this.

> 3) Promote the remailer and applications which make use of the
> remailer (there's nothing I've seen, other than pingers and remailer
> infrastructure, which uses remailers programmatically in some cool
> way.  Some kind of ok-with-high-latency application -- ecash tunneled
> through remailers?  Another blacknet test?  An anonymous-only message
> board?  Web publishing?  Whatever.

Eric Hughes had a cool idea a while back: encourage CP technologies
by allowing them to bypass built-in mailing list latency.  Create a
CP node which forwards PGP-signed and remailed messages with higher
priority than others.  Signing up for this node is a way of showing
support for freedom enhancing technology.

> 4) Some kind of internal or external benefits to remailer operators.
> Something along the lines of "I will throw a party at DefCon with free
> (heh) ---- and -----s for the first 20 people who can prove control of
> mixmaster remailer keys which transit test messages I send throughout
> the year (selected based on normal client criteria, such as uptime,
> latency, etc.)".  Someone could presumably donate money in a similar
> fashion.  This would provide some level of decoupling from "bank
> accounts of those who sponsor remailers" and "remailer users".
> ("convince legions of 18-25 year old females that remailer operators
> are the best in bed" would be ideal, but is probably not going to happen)

Maybe Tim May could donate his Y2K beans and rice as a prize, since he's
never been willing to use his millions to subsidize bonuses of this type.

> 5) Get more companies, universities, and non-profits to run remailers,
> as they have machines, relatively untouchable network feeds.  Why is
> there no EFF remailer?  Why is there no ACLU remailer?  Why is there
> no ZKS remailer?  I mainly started the havenco remailer for social
> and intellectual purposes, but there are slight marketing benefits to
> it as well.  I'm sure people (me.  you?) would be willing to provide
> time to help worthwhile organizations set up remailers.  Back in the
> day big companies would run public ftp sites for the common good; I
> think any organization dealing with any volume of mail today should
> feel socially pressured to run a remailer.

Keep in mind that our perception of remailers is at odds with that of
the world at large.  Fellow travellers like the EFF can't afford to be
that closely tied to a technology which most people view as an obnoxious
nuisance at best and a terrorist tool at worst.

> 6) Deal with the spam issue -- integrate something like nilsima into
> mixmaster directly, none of this procmail hackery (which I haven't
> bothered to configure myself).  This would eliminate "whitelists" and
> other cruft which decrease the reliability of the remailer network
> substantially.  Doesn't stop mailing list or newsgroup spam, but it's
> fucking 2001 (almost 2002) -- if you care that much about the 0.1
> seconds of time to delete a piece of spam, your list should be
> filtered, moderated, or posting limited to subscribers only.

Absolutely.  Simplicity and reliability have been overlooked as goals
for the remailer network.  You shouldn't start adding new features until
the old ones (like successfully remailing messages without dropping
them) work.

Nevertheless there is a political over-reaction to commercial spam, and it
can be a major source of complaints about the remailer.  Per-link hashcash
would be a better deterrant than black lists, which ultimately depend
on entry remailers to do a favor for exit remailers.

> 7) Provide a UI which doesn't suck for users -- including better
> web-based interfaces (perhaps as part of the base distribution?) with
> anti-spam measures (mixmaster+nilsima may be enough, but "copy this
> image number down" might be needed.

Split out the client, including web-based clients, from the server.
They have different needs.  If you want to promote good, reliable
servers there is no need to also make them be web clients.

> 8) Some kind of two-way communications -- which I will happily host,
> as I'm sure others will as well -- providing remailer-accessed
> mailboxes, return addresses, etc.  Less private, more linkable, but
> still pretty anonymous, as you could require all the messages to be 
> encrypted (or not), and the initial user-to-mailbox delivery is
> reliable; even if the remailer network is unreliable, you could do
> return receipts with your own client such that it will retransmit
> through the chain of remailers a couple times if need be, until you
> can guarantee receipt, before deleting from the server.  Most of the
> "antisocial" remailer-facilitated activities are hit-and-run; most of
> the *good* remailer uses require a persistent identity and two-way 
> communications.  (and, paying for a real mailbox is something which is
> not in the millicent ghetto; $20/year for a mailbox is entirely
> common, and people might be willing to pay a substantial premium for 
> anonymity)

The Freedom network had the right idea here: pipenet access to an ordinary
POP mailbox.  If remailers are joined in an always-connected P2P network
it could be used as a specialized pipenet for just this purpose.  No ZKS
anti-abuse nym protocols necessary since exit points would be restricted
to the special POP mailboxes.

> So, while I'd really like to see ecash, I think remailers need some >
other work first, before they could really benefit from the effort >
required to create an ecash system from scratch, deploy it, scale it,
> and then use it for this application.  Not that I'm saying an ecash >
system isn't worthwhile for its own sake, though :)

Non-monetary ecash does have one advantage over hashcash for proof of
work postage: it is transferable.  With hashcash, once it's spent,
it's gone and can't be reused.  With ecash (purchased by hashcash)
the payee gets to keep it and can spend it himself in the future.
In other words, remailer operators would build up riches in ecash.  Now,
all it's good for is sending anonymous messages, so they're not going
to retire on it.  But still this can fund pingers run (or paid for)
by the remops themselves.

And there could eventually be a secondary market in remailer ecash.
Remailer users would seek it as an alternative to hashcash if it were
easier to get.  They might be willing to perform services in exchange
for remailer ecash payment.  This could produce some backing for the
currency and it might come to be traded even among people who had no
desire to use remailers.  (Services might be, e.g. ripping a requested
copy protected CD via an analog connection, or digitizing a TV show
unavailable to the requestor.)




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Dec 21 09:34:15 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:34:15 -0700
Subject: book
Message-ID: <3C237297.42D48C4C@lsil.com>


Bought a copy of True Names and read it last night. Great story,
especially considering the date. The first net-fi I read was Neuromancer
in '84.

R. Stallman's Right to Read short story is sickeningly close to reality.
I don't care one way or the other if Microsoft patents and creates an OS
that does DRM but I do care about having it forced down my throat at the
hands of congressvermin and corporations which, as I see it, is
practically a certainty.

Tim's essay was mostly the familiar stuff, nicely organized and
presented. The style was almost academic but I notice he did slip one
"spokesvermin" reference in there.

So, Tim, we seem to have raced closer if not past the fork in the road,
especially since September. Recalling Yogi Berra's "when you come to the
fork in the road, take it", have we taken it? And if so which path?

The fork analogy may be too simple. The natural path for a vital culture
is the crypto-anarchist path. The path of increasing state control is
the natural path for the maintenance and accumulation of power. We all
see the forces in operation, it's pretty much the topic 24/7. I think
the forces that bind this mess together increase with distance, the more
free the net becomes the greater the perceived threat and the desire to
reign it in. The tighter the controls the greater the desire to break
free. On each side there are those for whom compromise is unacceptable.
In the middle are the nearly oblivious masses who can with varying
degrees of success be swayed one way or the other from time to time.
Fear seems to be their main motivator.

Rather than making a choice and following any single path we are
following two concurrent and divergent paths and the energy level is
increasing. We are headed for a period of escalation. It's definitely a
new 'War on Drugs' scenario, just as dangerous, just as futile and just
as sustainable.

Mike





From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Dec 21 10:43:11 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:43:11 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: <20011221065441.A22020@leopard.venona.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220210119.03751688@pop3.lvcm.com>
  <20011220235250.GA26508@atreides.havenco.com>
  <5.1.0.14.0.20011220210119.03751688@pop3.lvcm.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011221093830.03a43eb8@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 06:54 AM 12/21/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Quoting Steve Schear :
> >
> > I don't run a mixmaster because:
> >  - its not been easy to get running
> >  - it uses SMTP ports which are filtered on my AT&T cable system.  The
> > remailer reference lists need to include port number references so 
> users on
> > these "restricted" ISPs can participate.  Since the traffic is 
> encrypted it
> > might make sense for operators to choose port numbers used by P2P
> > applications which currently encrypt traffic (I believe Morpheus does).
> >  - it didn't run under Windows (until the other day)
>
>[admittedly, I'm very biased, since I have more of a network engineering/admin
>point of view than a normal end-user cypherpunk point of view]
>
>I'm wary of doing things which violate internet standards and generally
>complicate application design to support:
>1) Windows users trying to run servers

You must mean non-commercial users since substantial number, probably a 
majority of commercial servers run this crud.

>2) People running reliable servers on filtered networks (just get a tunnel
>if you really care)

Are there good free one's?


>I don't see there being a huge need for middleman/remix-only nodes.

Why?

>There is
>a huge need for well-configured, production-grade exit hosts with testicular
>fortitude and a bad attitude.

But these are likely to be the most difficult to find and persist.  I think 
its a bad idea to hinge remailer network improvements on the participation 
of deep pocket parties who need convincing that this is a ideological fight 
they should take on and risk their resources and public image upon.


>Things like the hotmail exit code are foiled these days by the "prove you
>are a real human or a turing-test-complete AI to open an account"

I'll look into this and report.


>Relying on services which are in violation of terms of service (running a
>remailing server on a consumer dialup or cablemodem with a no-servers
>policy, abusing stupid web email providers to take the heat) is not a
>good way for high-visibility, high-abuse postions of the network to
>operate, if reliability is key (as it is for non-abusive remailer users).

These restrictive ISP policies are almost always aimed at web hosting and 
mail and rarely against other ports or services (e.g., P2P) which are major 
driving forces for consumers purchasing broadband connections.  As for the 
judgement of whether something is wise I would love the remailer network to 
work as even as well as Gnutella or Freenet.


>Until there is evidence otherwise, I think 5-10 well-administered,
>professionally maintained remailers, run by reasonably well known
>organizations, with sufficient legal firepower to defend themselves,
>running a codebase which is as reliable as a standard MTA, with best-efforts
>spam and abuse prevention, would provide a better service to users than 100
>99% reliable remailers running on cablemodems which can be incapacitated
>by a single email to noc at home.net or blown power supply or whatever.

I see no need to follow only one path which might become a dead end.


>Simultaneously raise the bar in some ways (require better network,
>maintenance, etc.) but lower it in the ways which influence TCO for a
>professional organization (install and maintenance admin time).

I think architectures which lower the bar should be equally be 
explored.  Alternatives are the life blood of any business 
strategy.  Commitment to a single avenue increases risks.


>Provide a way to inject messages into the system without identifying the
>user as "member of the set of remailer users"; put up a web interface
>accessible via a quality anonymizing proxy, or pick up encrypted messages
>from USENET, or encourage dummy traffic from end users (put a nice web
>anonymizer and/or SSL web server with general-interest content right next
>to the remailer, ideally, for plausible deniability, and use JS or java or
>something so normal browsing sessions and remailer-interaction sessions are
>similar).

Excellent.


> > There needs to be an automated way to anonymously and securely 
> determine if
> > your messages have gotten stuck at a particular remailer.

If clients generate message digests for each link in the daisy chain then 
the Web interface to the remailers could enable automated checking whether 
a message was received and successfully processed by each 
remailer.  Provacy could be maintained by having the remailer response 
include all MDs for some client selected/fixed window.



>Given the level of latency and standard deviation for messages, I'm not
>sure if this would provide a reasonable level of quality of service, using
>today's remailer population.

Well certainly the few brave operators we currently have.

steve




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 16:13:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:13:56 +1100
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221111135.00a706c0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>...For those of you truly sick of the libertarian-versus-conservative 
debate,

Yes! Lets have a libertarian-versus-anarchist debate




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 16:19:54 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:19:54 +1100
Subject: Fw: Israeli compromise of U.S. telecommunications? 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221111555.00a73120@pop.useoz.com>


 >>, by giving critical > capabilities to foreign entities... >

Such as the stolen INSLAW software known as PROMIS thats been used in 
Occupied Palestine,Guatamala and the old south africa to select targets for 
death squads.Why do people OS want to kill US?




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 16:28:33 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:28:33 +1100
Subject: : Re : MS DRM OS 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221112130.00a70230@pop.useoz.com>


 >>...I have no doubt it will be implemented and protected viciously. I use 
the word viciously because that is the only way to make DRM work and there 
is a great deal of money at stake. Mike

Steve Ballmer,viscious? Nah,shurley not.The early models were a little 
twitchy but the SB 2000 terminator series is for all practical 
purposes,foolproof.

"I have no doubt it (AP) will be implemented and protected 
vigorously,everything is at stake." Jim Bell's handwritten note on 
cigarette paper.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 16:32:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:32:47 +1100
Subject: "Im mad as hell and Im not going to take it anymore!"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221113103.00a74be0@pop.useoz.com>


Last Night in Buenos Aires Argentina. My Personal Experience (english)
by I'd rather be anonymous 11:49am Thu Dec 20 '01 (Modified on 1:56pm Thu 
Dec 20 '01)

Last nights protest and how they felt, personal report.
I was watching television, seeing the lootings and the uprisings in the 
country interior. Suddenly the president appeared on the screen.. he talked 
about differentiating between the criminals and the needy. He spoke quietly 
almost elegantly trying to sound in charge. He said he had announced today 
the state of siege. I knew that it is uncostitutional in Argentina for the 
president to declare an state of siege, only the congress can do that. I 
was disgusted and I turned off the TV. I started hearing a sound.. very 
quiet sound but growing.. I went to the balcony of my apartment, looked 
out.. people on every balcony banging pots and caceroles, the sound got 
louder and louder.. it was a roar.. and it wasn't going to stop. I saw some 
people on the corner of the street I live.. no more than 10.. I put on a 
shirt and went down.. It was strange, and exciting, on every corner I could 
see people were gathering. Small groups. This is a comfortable middle class 
neighbourhood.. but everybody's been fucked by what's going on... and it's 
been going on for far too long. On the corner of the next street people had 
went and started gathering on the middle of the streets. Banging spoons 
against caceroles, waving flags.. in a few minutes we were something like 
150 persons.. we started walking.. nobody seemed to knew were we were going 
or what was gonna happen.. an hour had gone by since the bangings started 
and the noise wasn't stopping, coming from every corner of the city. As we 
walked people where joining us, it was exciting.. almost manic. The feeling 
of regaining your own power. People from all walks of life where there.. I 
looked back and suddenly this spontaneus manifestation was a couple of 
blocks long.. and I could see that we were joing other spontaneus groups 
coming from other streets. I could see people in suits and people in 
working uniforms. I could see young girls in nice clothes and senior 
citizens in old clothes. I could see the small businessman who is suffering 
from higher and higher taxes and it's about to loss his house from his bank 
loans and the young man who has been excluded by the system and couldn't 
get a job for 4 years. Everybody was represented. It was amazing.. People 
cheered from the balconies.. small pieces of shreded paper falling slowly 
to the streets.. singing, banging, marching. When I got to the congress a 
couple of thousand people where allready there.. and I could see people 
coming in from every corner.. It felt like a party. The Flags waving, the 
chants, the clapping. A guy on the top of the stairs lighted some sort of 
smoke light.. pink smoke all over the place..
I looked around, don't know why but I started feeling tense.. people kept 
on coming and we started marching to the casa rosada. Things didn't feel 
exciting anymore.. it felt tenser and tenser.. I could see some fire on the 
street ahead.. A small trashcan on fire.. I kept on walking.. some people 
where quietly singing and clapping but I saw other small fires.. I had 
entered a column that come from a tougher neighboorhood than mine. I don't 
blame them.. they've been fucked way harder than anybody else.. and hunger 
breeds anger. This young guy was about to bang a stick against a street 
sign, this thirtiesh guy, skinny and dressed in really old jeans and shirt, 
holding a young girl on his arms, said something to him.. The young man 
looked back, he saw the columns of people. I could catch this phrase from 
the skinny guy "Look at how many we are".. I looked back.. I saw and felt 
what I felt at the beggining.. everybody was there, everybody was 
represented.. we were too many. The guy threw away the stick.
When I got to Plaza de Mayo. A couple thousands were there.. and they kept 
and kept on coming.. It was weird.. people started coming in on cars.. as 
well as marching.
Young people, old people, families.. the people.The plaza was half full and 
the columns kept on coming.. I walked around. Amazed. Still quite surprised 
of being there. I was on the back thinking that not many days you go to the 
balcony to check the noises coming from the streets and you end up being a 
witness to a presidential deposition by social uprising. Suddenly I was 
pushed in the back by somebody.. when I regained balance I saw people 
running away.. Somebody was yelling "Sons of bitches" right next to me.. 
out of instinct I started running with them.. I ran half a block.. stopped 
and look back.. I saw thousands and thousands of people running.. I kept on 
running but looked back from time to time. I asked somebody what's going 
on.. he just runned.. somebody passing me was saying something about the 
police.. couldn't quite understand.. my nose started itching.. I looked 
back.. in the plaza, 500 meters back, I could see smoke.. I looked at 
people's eyes.. they were redenning... my throat hurt.. I ran. I looked 
back.. people were going off in all directions but away from the plaza.. 
the smoke got higher and higher I took of my shirt and covered my nose and 
mouth.. my eyes itched.. I got pretty far.. looked around.. this guy on a 
Miami Florida t-shirt.. absolutely middle class. said he now understood 
what the piqueteros felt. I kept on walking.. heading for my home.. I 
suddenly realized I was crying. I didn't knew if it was from the lacrimogic 
gases or from impotence and anger.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 18:08:54 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:08:54 +1100
Subject: Sympathy for the devil
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221130054.00a6b9f0@pop.useoz.com>


After the cherubim and the seraphim,lou Cipher had to fall for you.

You see right through distorted eyes, you know you had to learn,
The execution of your mind, you really had to turn.
The race is run, the book is read, the end begins to show.
The truth is out, the lies are old, but you don't want to know.
Nobody will ever let you know,
When you ask the reasons why.
They just tell you that you're on your own,
Fill your head all full of lies.
The people who have crippled you, you wanna see them burn.
The gates of life have closed on you and there's just no return.
You're wishing that the hands of doom could take your mind away.
And you don't care if you don't see again the light of day.
Nobody will ever let you know,
When you ask the reasons why.
They just tell you that you're on your own,
Fill your head all full of lies.
You bastards!
Where can you run to? What more can you do?
No more tomorrow; life is killing you.
Dreams turn to nightmares, heaven turns to hell.
Burns out confusion, nothing more to tell.
Yeah.
Ev'rything around you, what's it coming to?
God knows as your dog knows;Bog blast all of you.
Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath, nothing more to do.
Living just for dying, dying just for you
Yeah.




From rabbi at quickie.net  Fri Dec 21 13:21:27 2001
From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:21:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: More on remailers.
Message-ID: 


There have been quite a few responses to the email I posted the other day
regarding pay-per-use remailers. I'm going to try to follow up on all of
them in this one message.

First of all, the fact that I brought up the topic of pay-per-use
remailers shouldn't be interpreted to mean that I think that is what
needs to be done next in improving the remailer network. As I told those
of you at the last cypherpunks meeting, there are more immediate concerns
and necessary improvements to be made. Ryan Lackey, Steve Schear and Mr.
Melon covered some of the big ones in one of their recent posts. However,
I don't think it is a bad thing to be discussing digital cash remailers,
since I am convinced that they are an eventual necessity.

Anonymous and Meyer Wolfsheim pointed out that the tracking idea doesn't
depend on digital cash, and that one could use a nonce for that purpose.
Yes, this is certainly true -- I was interested in hearing thoughts on the
feasibility of hearing them together. (It seems to me that combining the
two will give additional benefits, such as the ability for the user to
re-use tokens from the latter part of a chain if the message dies in the
former part of a chain, etc., etc.)

While I new that the pay-per-use remailer model I was describing had been
demonstrated many times before, I hadn't been aware that John Gilmore had
proposed a similar system reliability tracking system. I'd appreciate
pointers to that so I can read it.

Anonymous claimed that I contradicted myself in my description of the
remailer tokens. Let me clarify: rather than being an openly traded
currency, like dollars, the only people who need to be able to turn
remailer tokens back into "real cash" are remailer operators. Expect a
money-changing fee as well. (BTW, I prefer the term "remailer stamps" than
"remailer tokens." I think users will understand this better.)

There could certainly be multiple mints, as Tim points out, and remailers
could be their own mint. I suspect some remailers would go this route to
eliminate the money-changing fees, but I was simplifying for my
description.

Meyer and Ryan bring up the point that buying tokens/stamps from a
"remailer stamp vendor" would identify one as a remailer user. I pointed
out in my original message the necessity of a "crowd" of remailer users,
but I'm surprised to see this as a real objection. Mix-nets are designed
to work against an opponent who can see all network traffic, and in that
scenario, everyone who is a remailer user is already identified. Don't
forget this.

Publishing failure notifications with sender-provided keys, as Steve
Schear suggests, seems likely to have large implementation and usage
hurdles. (A separate user's public key for each remailer in the chain
would have to be sent along with each message, and managing this would
become quite difficult for the user.)

Ryan discusses some of the things needed to run a remailer. One of the
things on his list is "a fuck the law attitude". Frankly, it doesn't
matter what your attitude is, how much hardware you have, etc, if your ISP
will shut you down under pressure because of complaints. Even if DSL is
technically sufficient to run a remailer, being a DSL customer is not. Not
everyone hosts their remailer server in a data center known to fire
warning shots at approaching military vessels. Greg Broiles is nobody as
far as Speakeasy is concerned, and shutting him off was a simple solution
to the abuse complaints they were receiving. Had he been a leased line or
collo customer, the situation would probably have been different.

Additionally, Ryan has a list of "what remops want." I suspect that varies
greatly by remop. He completely missed my personal motives for operating
mine.

Ryan is taking the stance that we need "better, not more" remailers. I
tend to agree, but I can't see many companies spending a lot on their
remailers if there isn't a source of revenue.

On the mixmaster-devel and remops lists, we've been discussing the needed
improvements to Mixmaster and remailers in general a lot recently. I won't
go over them here. If you're interested, join the discussion on the
mixmaster-devel list. One thing that hasn't been mentioned a lot, but that
Ryan touched upon just now, is better two-way communication. We need a
good nym system, and reply-blocks don't cut it.

In conclusion, I leave you with a question: if remailer users are reduced
to a small number of high-paying remailer customers for whom anonymity is
not a game, but a matter of life or death, could a mix-net be made to
provide any sufficient degree of security? "No" is the easy answer. Say
yes, and prove it.


--Len.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 20 18:38:03 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:38:03 +1100
Subject: Locke and loade.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221133610.00a6d760@pop.useoz.com>


John Locke's influence on the english and american revolutions:Arising out 
of the enlightenment,
that period, roughly comparable to the present, with printing standing in 
for the wwweb,Lockes
philosophies rippled out from the tumult of the english civil war that led 
to the beheading
of the king,to the present.Some selections from 
...http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/l/locke.htm

The constructive doctrines which are elaborated in the second treatise 
became the basis of social and political philosophy for generations. Labor 
is the origin and justification of property; contract or consent is the 
ground of government and fixes its limits. Behind both doctrines lies the 
idea of the independence of the individual person. The state of nature 
knows no government; but in it, as in political society, men are subject to 
the moral law, which is the law of God. Men are born free and equal in 
rights. Whatever a man "mixes his labour with" is his to use. Or, at least, 
this was so in the primitive condition of human life in which there was 
enough for all and "the whole earth was America." Locke sees that, when men 
have multiplied and land has become scarce, rules are needed beyond those 
which the moral law or law of nature supplies. But the origin of government 
is traced not to this economic necessity, but to another cause. The moral 
law is always valid, but it is not always kept. In the state of nature all 
men equally have the right to punish transgressors: civil society 
originates when, for the better administration of the law, men agree to 
delegate this function to certain officers. Thus government is instituted 
by a "social contract"; its powers are limited, and they involve reciprocal 
obligations; moreover, they can be modified or rescinded by the authority 
which conferred them. Locke's theory is thus no more historical than 
Hobbes's. It is a rendering of the facts of constitutional government in 
terms of thought, and it served its purpose as a justification of the 
Revolution settlement in accordance with the ideas of the time.

His reflections on the rate of interest show the growing disfavor with 
which appeals for state interference were beginning to be met. He points 
out the obstacles to trade that are caused when the rate of interest is 
fixed by law, and he argues in favor of freedom for what he calls, in words 
which suggest Adam Smith, "the natural interest of money." Money "turns the 
wheels of trade"; therefore its course should not be stopped. At the same 
time, he holds no general brief against the interference of the state in 
matters of commerce; nor is the language of the mercantilist foreign to 
him. Riches consist in plenty of gold and silver, for these command all the 
conveniences of life. Now, "in a country not furnished with mines, there 
are but two ways of growing rich, either conquest or commerce." For us 
commerce is the only way; and Locke condemns "the amazing politics of some 
late reigns" which had "let in other competitors with us for the sea."
. "The business of laws," he says,
is not to provide for the truth of opinions, but for the safety and 
security of the commonwealth, and of every particular man's goods and 
person. And so it ought to be. For truth certainly would do well enough, if 
she were once left to shift for herself. She seldom has received, and I 
fear never will receive, much assistance from the power of great men, to 
whom she is but rarely known, and more rarely welcome. She is not taught by 
laws, nor has she any need of force, to procure her entrance into the minds 
of men. Errors, indeed, prevail by the assistance of foreign and borrowed 
succors. But if truth makes not her way into the understanding by her own 
light, she will be but the weaker for any borrowed force violence can add 
to her.
A church, according to Locke, is "a free and voluntary society"; its 
purpose is the public worship of God; the value of worship depends on the 
faith that inspires it: "all the life and power of true religion consists 
in the inward and full persuasion of the mind;" and these matters are 
entirely outside the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate. Locke therefore 
(to use later language) was a voluntary in religion, as he was an 
individualist on questions of state interference. There is an exception, 
however, to his doctrine of the freedom of the individual in religious 
matters. The toleration extended to all others is denied to papists and to 
atheists; and his inconsistency in this respect has been often and severely 
criticized. But it is clear that Locke made the exception not for religious 
reasons but on grounds of state policy. He looked upon the Roman Catholic 
as dangerous to the public peace because he professed allegiance to a 
foreign prince; and the atheist was excluded because, on Locke's view, the 
existence of the state depends upon a contract, and the obligation of the 
contract, as of all moral law, depends upon the divine will.
He held that "the minds of children [are] as easily turned, this way or 
that, as water itself." He underrated innate differences: "we are born with 
faculties and powers, capable almost of anything;" and, "as it is in the 
body, so it is in the mind, practice makes it what it is." Along with this 
view went a profound conviction of the importance of education, and of the 
breadth of its aim. It has to fit men for life -- for the world, rather 
than for the university. Instruction in knowledge does not exhaust it; it 
is essentially a training of character.




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Dec 21 14:31:11 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:31:11 -0700
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: <3C23B82F.2F262084@lsil.com>


Steve Schear  wrote :
>
>I won't run an exit remailer because of the obvious risks  Does Ian G's

>Hotmail exit code still work?  Is this practical?
>
>steve
>
Entry and intermediate remailers seem moderately safe.

Isn't there anything that can be done about reducing the risks of
running an exit remailer?

Since the assumption is that the attacker sees all of the network
traffic then they already know who is getting mail from the exit node.
Why not get each recipient who is getting mail for the first time to
sign a waiver of some sort before they can pick up their mail. When an
unsigned user gets a mail they are sent a notification mail explaining
what remailers are, roughly how they work, some of the perceived
problems with what might be sent via a remailer etc. Then tell them how
to sign the waiver and give them a deadline before their waiting message
is deleted. Some signing options might be : propagate to other
remailers, one-time use, expiration date, refuse all mail, delete any
mail w/o delivery code etc...

Faustine  wrote :
>
> If the government put me in charge of subverting the
> remailer network, I think the first thing I'd do is
> round myself up a nice batch of friendly, respectable
> "professionals" with shiny impressive "professional"
> credentials (tailored exactly to match what "well-known
> organizations" are looking for) and infiltrate the
> hell out of every single organization running a node.
>
So go into business building remailer machines. Develop the appropriate
tamper resistance/detection systems and place them on sites the same way
vending machines are handled. The site lease could be based on auditable
bandwidth and power consumption. The site owner doesn't need to know
jack about e-gold or tokens or even remailers for that matter. If you
could adjust the bandwidth throttle based on time of day you could offer
people a way to get paid for their unused nighttime bandwidth. Just
needs good HW/SW and a good contract. Instead of Carnivore you can call
it an IceBox.

Mike

Let's assume the night bandwidth is free, what's the electricity cost?
$15/month?
The amortization on the equipment? $50/month?





From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Dec 21 13:12:49 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:12:49 -0500
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: <200112212112.QAA18354@mail.lokmail.net>

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From jei at cc.hut.fi  Fri Dec 21 06:42:13 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:42:13 +0200 (EET)
Subject: FC: FBI refuses to tell Congress aide about "classified" Magic 
 Lantern (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:10:39 -0500
From: Declan McCullagh 
To: politech at politechbot.com
Cc: Norman.Singleton at mail.house.gov
Subject: FC: FBI refuses to tell Congress aide about "classified" Magic  Lantern

Background on "Magic Lantern":
http://www.politechbot.com/cgi-bin/politech.cgi?name=lantern

---


From jei at cc.hut.fi  Fri Dec 21 06:50:55 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:50:55 +0200 (EET)
Subject: The crime of distributed computing (fwd)
Message-ID: 


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23477.html

The crime of distributed computing

By Ann Harrison
Posted: 20/12/2001 at 17:33 GMT


A college computer technician who offered his school's unused computer
processing power for an encryption research project will be tried next
month in Georgia for computer theft and trespassing charges that carry a
potential total of 120 years in jail. 

The closely-watched case if one of the first in which state prosecutors
have lodged felony charges for allegedly downloading third-party software
without permission. 

David McOwen was working as a PC specialist at the state-run DeKalb
Technical Institute in 1998, when he learned about a project by the
non-profit organization distributed.net that allowed computer users to
donate their unused processing power to test the RC5 encryption algorithm.
Noticing that many of the machines he maintained on the seven DeKalb
campuses sat idle for long periods, McOwen installed distributed.net
clients at several of those locations while performing a Y2K upgrade on
the machines in 1999. 

According to McOwen, during the Christmas holidays in 1999 school
administrators noticed that unused machines were sending and receiving the
distributed.net data -- about the equivalent of one email a day. The
school sent McOwen a letter of suspension in January of 2000, without
specifying a grievance, and McOwen resigned shortly afterwards, believing
that he had put the incident behind him. 

Instead, in June of 2001 McOwen was contacted by an investigator from the
Georgia Bureau of Investigation who informed him that he was the subject
of an 18-month computer crime investigation. In October, prosecutors from
the Georgia state attorney general's office charged McOwen with eight
violations of Georgia's tough computer crime law: one count of computer
theft, and seven counts of computer trespass -- one for each of the school
offices where McOwen downloaded the distributed.net client. 

Each felony count carries a $50,000 fine and a 15-year possible prison
term, for a 120 year maximum possible sentence. The indictment also calls
for restitution equal to the amount of money paid to state workers to
uninstall the programs from 500 PCs. 

As the case nears trial, it's raising eyebrows among some legal and
technology experts for the unusual application of an anti-hacking law to
actions taken by a network's legitimate administrator. 

'This Is Not Hacking' 
"Our problem with this kind of statute is that it is written in such broad
terms that it can reach all sorts of behavior that doesn't constitute
computer fraud, but can give the government prosecutorial discretion,"
says Lee Tien, a senior staff attorney with the San Francisco-based
Electronic Frontier Foundation, who has followed McOwen's case. 

"This is a hacking statute," says McOwen, "but obviously this is not
hacking." At an early stage in the proceedings, prosecutors claimed that
McOwen had cost the state of Georgia $415,000 in bandwidth charges, based
on a calculation that the distributed.net clients consumed precisely 59
cents worth of bandwidth per second. The state has since backed away from
the $415,000 figure. 

Today, much of the case rests on whether McOwen violated DeKalb's policies
by downloading the distributed.net client. Russ Willard, a spokesman for
Georgia Attorney General Thurbert Baker, contends that McOwen deliberately
ignored the college's written computer usage guidelines, which were issued
to him with his first user I.D. and password. Willard says the policy
forbade McOwen from downloading any unauthorized third-party software onto
the college's machines. 

McOwen claims he had permission from college officials to download the
software, and his lawyer suggests that there were no written guidelines
forbidding such installations to begin with. "If there is a policy I have
not seen it," says attorney David Joyner, who says he has received all the
discovery evidence in the case. DeKalb college president Paul Starnes and
McOwen's supervisors from the college's IS department would not comment on
the case. 

Even if there was such a policy presented to McOwen, those who work at
universities say they are often disregarded. "It think it's so common on
the academic community that nobody reads agreements like that," says David
Farber, a professor of telecommunications at the University of
Pennsylvania and former chief technologist of the FCC. "It is part and
parcel of many academics and many students that inquisitiveness motivates
them to download third-party software. If you are going to prosecute a
person for that on those grounds, than you should prosecute everybody on
campus because everyone has done it." 

Financial Motive Alleged 
Willard says that McOwen was singled out for prosecution partly because he
had ignored his supervisor's warnings. "In this case, Mr. McOwen was
expressively prohibited by his superiors from downloading these programs
and was informed on many occasions by his supervisors to stop downloading
programs," said Willard. "They were aware that he was doing it and he had
gone in and cleaned it up on numerous occasions." Joyner insists McOwen
received no such warning. 

Prosecutors also claim that McOwen had a financial motive for volunteering
the school's machines. McOwen was a top producer on distributed.net for
"Team AnandTech," a group sponsored by a hardware forum site which is
still the second ranking contributor to the RC5 research project. A $1,000
prize goes to the individual contributor who recovers the RC5 encryption
key. 

"McOwen placed a program on computers, that in his estimation would
benefit him personally, including computers that has sensitive student
financial and identity information without authorization," says Willard.
"There is concern about the program itself compromising or providing the
basis to compromise sensitive personal or financial information, there is
the matter of Mr. McOwen's unauthorized activities on this computer, and
finally there is the point that there was misappropriation of state
property." 

McOwen says the prize money wasn't a factor. "People do these projects for
the betterment of mankind," says McOwen. "You are not doing it for the
prize and possibility of money, you are doing it because it is the right
thing to do." 

"I think the prosecutor's office needs some lessons in computer science,"
says Farber. "If you want to make a point, there are much better examples
than this guy." 

The case is set for trial on 28 January. 

© 2001 SecurityFocus.com, all rights reserved. 









From cripto at ecn.org  Fri Dec 21 08:20:40 2001
From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:20:40 +0100
Subject: [Reformatted] feds were warned, but asleep
References: <3.0.5.32.20011221070612.00797100@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <0ef09637beaf2d5cb88515c943470e34@ecn.org>


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

> http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/913687.html
>
> Published Dec 21 2001
>
> WASHINGTON, D.C. -- When a Twin Cities flight instructor phoned the
> FBI last August to alert the agency that a terrorist might be taking
> lessons to fly a jumbo jet, he did it in a dramatic way:
>
> "Do you realize how serious this is?" the instructor asked an FBI
> agent. "This man wants training on a 747. A 747 fully loaded with fuel
> could be used as a weapon!"
>
> The aviation student he was talking about was Zacarias Moussaoui, who
> was arrested the following day and last week was charged in a federal
> indictment with conspiring with Osama bin Laden and others to carry
> out the Sept. 11 attacks.
>
> New details of how Moussaoui raised suspicions at the Pan Am
> International Flight Academy in Eagan -- and the company's eerily
> prescient tip -- are emerging from the briefings the school recently
> gave to congressional offices.
>
> The still-unidentified flight instructor became wary of Moussaoui
> immediately, according to Minnesota Rep. Jim Oberstar and others with
> direct knowledge of the briefings.
>
> Moussaoui first raised eyebrows when, during a simple introductory
> exchange, he said he was from France, but then didn't seem to
> understand when the instructor spoke French to him.
>
> Moussaoui then became belligerent and evasive about his background,
> Oberstar and other sources said. In addition, he seemed inept in basic
> flying procedures, while seeking expensive training on an advanced
> commercial jet simulator.
>
> Besides alerting the FBI about Moussaoui, the school's Phoenix office
> called the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) early this year about
> another student -- Hani Hanjour, who was believed to be the pilot of
> the plane that flew into the Pentagon on Sept. 11. The school had
> raised questions about Hanjour's limited ability to speak English, the
> universal language of aviation.
>
> An FAA representative sat in on a class to observe Hanjour, who was
> from Saudi Arabia, and discussed with school officials finding an
> Arabic-speaking person to help him with his English, said Oberstar and
> others with direct knowledge of the school's briefings.
>
> Oberstar and Minnesota Rep. Martin Sabo, who also was briefed by the
> school, praised Pan Am for its efforts to safeguard the skies and for
> passing federal authorities clues to possible terrorist activities
> before Sept. 11.
>
> They said that, with the benefit of hindsight, it appears that the FBI
> and the FAA could have responded more vigorously.
>
> "From what I've heard, the school was clearly more alert than federal
> officials," Sabo said.
>
> ----- Whose more incompetent, the politicos who made us such enemies
> or the feds who can't protect against them?




From nobody at paranoici.org  Fri Dec 21 08:37:22 2001
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:37:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Reformatted] Utah go boom, not in the public domain
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011221063626.0079fdf0@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <957b35fb71c301afdb519a0d5e6b8947@paranoici.org>


In <3.0.5.32.20011221063626.0079fdf0 at sarin.com>, you write:

> http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20122001-044449-5310r
>
> One report currently being investigated by U.S. intelligence officials
> came from Pakistani Inter-Service Intelligence sources who had
> conducted an interrogation of a "terrorist suspect" in early November.
> Under "coercion," the suspect said that agents of bin Laden had
> smuggled two portable nuclear weapons into the United States,
> according to the report seen by a U.S. government expert.
>
> The government expert, who has had access to the Pakistani
> investigation, said ISI provided "the highest levels of the U.S.
> government" with materials from the ISI interrogation including a
> summary of the suspect's confession, which this source had seen. The
> summary did not give the specific dates of the smuggling, the method,
> or time of entry. The suspect said only that the smuggling had been
> carried out, the U.S. government expert said.
>
> The sources of the report "were current ISI officers who had kept
> contact with U.S. counterparts" they had known from the 1980s,
> this U.S. government expert said. The summary was accompanied by
> "collateral" or supporting documents, he said. The package was given
> to senior U.S. officials in mid-November.
>
> The ISI had not rated the report's credibility but felt it important
> enough to alert the U.S. government, this source said.
>
> "What was disconcerting about the (suspect's) information was that he
> knew details of the activation of the weapons and their construction
> that are not in the public domain," the U.S. expert analyst said.
>
> ....... "Coercion" is a nice word for raping his wife? -- foo




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Fri Dec 21 15:01:06 2001
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:01:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: More on remailers.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Len Sassaman wrote:


> Publishing failure notifications with sender-provided keys, as Steve
> Schear suggests, seems likely to have large implementation and usage
> hurdles. (A separate user's public key for each remailer in the chain
> would have to be sent along with each message, and managing this would
> become quite difficult for the user.)

One way around this management issue might be to use a public-key
cryptosystem which supports "key blinding." (Note - A Google search
reveals that this term seems to be used in other places as well, and it
looks like the usage there is not quite consistent with the way it is used
in this message. Caveat lector.)

David Hopwood has done some amazing work on formalizing the concept, which
informally goes something like this:

A public-key cryptosystem supports "blinded keys" if there is an efficient
randomized algorithm which takes a public key PK and outputs a new public
key PK' such that

	* [Key compatibility] Messages encrypted with PK' can be decrypted
	by the secret key associated with PK. (Ideally with no
	extra state required to decrypt these messages, unlike
	blinded signatures, which must be "unblinded" to be useful.)

	* [Key unlinkability] Given PK', an adversary cannot determine
	that PK' was created by blinding PK.

for this application, we also need something perhaps stronger

	* Many many PK' can be created from the same PK
	and none of them can be linked with each other (as well
	as not linked with the original PK)

This is somewhat like Ross Anderson's "compatible weak keys," except that
it does not require that a new private key be created along with the new
public key.

With blinded keys, the management issue you mention becomes much simpler,
I think.  Instead of managing dozens of public-private key pairs, you have
only one pair (PK,SK). To create a one-use public key for the purpose of
status notification, you create a blinded key PK'. Anything encrypted with
PK' can be decrypted by your SK, but the key unlinkability properties
prevent the remailers from correlating messages based on PK'.

One way to create a key-blinded cryptosystem is to consider Elgamal public
keys as the pair (g, y), where y = g^x for private key x. Then to blind a
public key, pick a random blinding factor b and let the blinded key be
(g^b, y^b). With this, you do not need to keep track of the blinding
factor b; the change in generator to g^b will do that for you.  So you can
get away without keeping any state on your end beyond your private key x.

For more detail, currently the best thing to do is a groups.google.com
search for David Hopwood and "BRH-DHAES." We keep meaning to write this
up, but never get around to it.

-David




From schear at lvcm.com  Fri Dec 21 19:17:07 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:17:07 -0800
Subject: More on remailers.
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011221174402.03a9b8b0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 06:01 PM 12/21/2001 -0500, dmolnar wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Len Sassaman wrote:
>
>
> > Publishing failure notifications with sender-provided keys, as Steve
> > Schear suggests, seems likely to have large implementation and usage
> > hurdles. (A separate user's public key for each remailer in the chain
> > would have to be sent along with each message, and managing this would
> > become quite difficult for the user.)
>
>One way around this management issue might be to use a public-key
>cryptosystem which supports "key blinding." (Note - A Google search
>reveals that this term seems to be used in other places as well, and it
>looks like the usage there is not quite consistent with the way it is used
>in this message. Caveat lector.)

An alternative method, discussed privately with another CP list member, 
would have the sender could provide a response-inbound message appropriate 
for each remailer in the chain and imbed this with the outbound message 
(maybe in the header). This imbedded message would be a concentrically 
wrapped and encrypted message just like the sender's outbound message, but 
constructed so it would backward chain to the originator.  Might not even 
be to the same address as the sender's to obfuscate the linkage. Similar to 
reply block.

My preference is using a Web server interface in the remailer to allow the 
originator's client to automatically check the progress of their message.

steve




From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Dec 21 16:40:15 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:40:15 -0500
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: <200112220040.TAA21582@mail.lokmail.net>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Dec 21 19:56:05 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:56:05 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3C2393D5.14924.79645A5@localhost>


    --
On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Len Sassaman wrote:
>
> > The user would purchase remailer tokens (digital cash) from a 
token vendor
> > (the bank). This is an exchange similar to car wash tokens or
> > TicketMaster[tm], where the seller receives "real cash" and the 
buyer
> > receives a tangible promise of a future service. The tokens 
could be
> > purchased online using PayPal, credit cards, etc. (Yes, this 
means the
> > number of paying remailer customers must be large enough to 
constitute a
> > crowd.)

On 20 Dec 2001, at 8:48, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
> The importance of having a large number of remailer users is 
made even
> greater by this system. While it might be easy for a TLA to 
monitor all
> network traffic and compile a list of all remailer users, having a bank
> make that list for them in an easily subpoena-able form saves them some
> work.

Much though I would love to have some excuse for convertible,
real money, for remailers mere antispam costs would suffice, thus
a money that anyone could generate by simply investing sufficient 
CPU cycles.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     kh+ZR4fe5x7pOqmyx8mqQif8RUZu32+kJ5BPQ0yi
     4gmqiF3vJL6jiPp/0e//TNGut2piKhawv18L/8Keb




From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Dec 21 19:56:05 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:56:05 -0800
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221111135.00a706c0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C2393D5.29969.79645AF@localhost>


    --
On 21 Dec 2001, at 11:13, mattd wrote:
> Yes! Lets have a libertarian-versus-anarchist debate

We cannot have such a debate on this list because almost all
the libertarians here are anarchists.

(Except, of course, by your peculiar use of the word
"anarchist", whereby an anarchist is some who supports an all
powerful state that rules by terror, similar to that which
the anarchists of Catalonia wound up implementing.) 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     yzNEKchjf2OM1pHx4FSiWAFddDz9YYDN/9PAZ7Qh
     4cZEM5tPDQ6gnaDJUk4OSznkpz+JVmw8BZT6jE9lA




From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Dec 21 20:42:46 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:42:46 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220205553.03809b30@pop3.lvcm.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011220175406.007c5880@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3C239EC6.16873.7C10351@localhost>


    --
On 20 Dec 2001, at 21:00, Steve Schear wrote:
> We should all be ashamed.  The main reason we don't have 
> the private payment system many have discussed is 
> lazyness/"better things to do with their time" by those 
> with the technical ability to create the SW (if I were one 
> of them the SW would be done by now, as I've easily spent 
> 1-2 many years and $10Ks trying to get others to write the 
> code).  Funding the payment system, as Tim has noted, is 
> not that hard.

I have been working on this project for several years, and 
have not got much done.  It is a big project, to do it right, 
with a user interface that is going to be reasonably usable 
and intelligible for a casual user,  I would say it is about 
eighteen months full time work if done at home, and if done 
as a dot com business, a couple of million dollars.

Doing it right requires a reasonably competent programmer, 
someone with experience in producing consumer products.  Such 
people tend to be busy.  I have kids to put through college. 
Because of the illegality of likely applications, this is not 
a project that bodes well for making a lot of money.

This project is the upper edge of what can be done by an 
enthusiast.  Having done it, then comes the scary part -- 
deploying it.  No way can I deploy it -- I have too many
assets.   Anyone that has the skills and time needed to
create this is apt to have too many assets to himself deploy
it. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     LnKyj9xPCkeKLryKpX/SwS8LghhHga8iIH4aM/Nt
     4QLZ88QAqycmHGkE0D0pOXkxpvslDNBdb7dGf/c36




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 02:28:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:28:21 +1100
Subject: Battle of Buenos Aires
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221212656.00a30d90@pop.useoz.com>


The Battle for Buenos Aires (english)
by Nicolas 10:29pm Thu Dec 20 '01 (Modified on 12:55am Fri Dec 21 '01)

First hand account from the Plaza de Mayo

Comrades,

I have made it back from the battle. I am way to tired to write a complete 
report, but I will do so tomorrow when I get up.

I will however say that these was far beyond anything I have seen before 
(way beyond Quebec, Goteborg, Genova, etc.). We tried to fight our way to 
the Plaza de Mayo (where the presidential palace is). Hardest fighting I've 
ever seen. As the OSL said, it was step by step, meter by meter. Rocks 
against an unholy amount of gas, rubber bullets, tanks, water hoses, you 
name it. The cops on occassion ran out.

We carried forward our barricades all we could, we got to the corner of the 
Plaza. I truly thought we would take the presidential palace, and thus 
fought like it was truly the last battle. Unfortunately, we did not make 
it. But we fought for 7 hours straight, back and forth. Unbelievable 
intensity. Amongst the people fighting there was all sorts, from a couple 
thousand leftists (from our march, which was attacked after only 1 block), 
to young people who were simply pissed, old workers (people in their 50s and
60s with bandannas and rocks), people in suits and ties straight from work, 
*everyone*

Banks and multinationals were completely destroyed, and very many were 
completely set alight. Barricades of fire quite literally everywhere 
(hundreds). As we advanced we blocked every single side street in order to 
not be attacked from behind. Eventually the looting began, and it was 
unlike anything Ive ever seen. At one point all sorts of fancy candy was 
flying through the air (I was sitting across the street and it quite 
literally rained on me).

I am exhausted (this is actually my second straight day of battle, the 
first was less glorious, as it was for tickets to my soccer teams last 
game. We can win the championship with only a tie, we havent won in 35 
years. 24 hours before the tickets went on sale there was 1o blocks of 
people waiting.

In the morning all hell broke loose, the stadium fences were toppled and it 
was a total stampede. People fainting from the pressure of so many people 
piled together, women crying, hardcore fans giving up saying they didnt 
want to die for a ticket. I was in there for one hour, almost fainting, my 
friends gave up, I was pushed against the wall, couldnt breathe, almost 
vomited, got dizzy, but finally got them and collapsed as soon as I got 
out. We take our soccer quite seriously, and this game, which because of 
this has been pushed back a week, is actually why I am currently in 
Argentina), and still in awe. I have a lot of comments to make, as well as 
a full report of what I saw, but it will be tomorrow.

For the record, 4 people died during the battle. This makes the death toll 
of the last 3/4 days 20 people.

Also, the president has resigned, there was once again massive looting today.

There are about 1200 people arrested. Rumors of 2 dead cops (I myself saw 
somebody run off with two police shirts).

I had taken pictures but at one point, as I was backtracking I walked 
straight into a barricade of fire! Naturally, this quickly burned my legs 
very badly. I have a fair amount of blisters and cuts (I must have jumped 
about two meters in the air, I thought my clothes were on fire). But it was 
there that I lost my camera (I think.)

Nicolas

argentina.indymedia.org




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 03:05:23 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:05:23 +1100
Subject: Lynx fraud
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221215038.00a6b4e0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Despite both your premedicated ability to see connections, even those
that aren't there, you both miss the metaphor: they're wanting
to prohibit LYNX, a nonMS browser, and the damn furry-eared
cat is a scratch monkey.<


The importance of the introduction of the Euro and the collapse of govts in 
Argentina,bolivia and Columbia must rivet the attention of all cypherpunks 
interested in the introduction of e-cash and collapse of 
Govts,crypto-anarchist style.
The amazing introduction of the Euro went surprisingly smoothly for a 
project with so many intrinsic logistical hazards.
That the introduction of barter units could happen in one fell swoop 
becomes realistic in the light of euro-experience.
Probably safer to stick with organic release through distributed P-P for 
now without working AP to defend against tax collectors.Its just exciting 
to realize the speed of change that's possible now.
That there's a dark flip side to that coin is obvious in South 
America.There's no need for anyone to die for crypto-anarchy.
The regrettable spectacle of dual power for some indeterminate time should 
not be taken as a 'given',in spite of the hirstory of the region.With 
todays networks and a global mexican wave of anarchy, collapse of govts 
becomes the precursor of crypto-anarchy.Fascism is usually the reaction of 
the oligarchs to people power.It doesnt have to be that way.We come back to 
the possible mass switch to e-cash.People need economic security as much as 
physical security.AP backs up the justice system while everyone becomes a 
mint.Reputations are not so much positive as,'least negative',as judged by 
AP nominations.The crypto revolution stands poised to inherit the earth.The 
first global revolution in hirstory.If only Hari Seldon were here to see it.
"Who wants to participate to help form what will be the LAST revolution on 
earth, the one that'll take down ALL the governments?"james dalton 
Bell.Cypherpunk cherubim,crypto-anarchist and enemy of the state.




From nobody at paranoici.org  Fri Dec 21 14:15:04 2001
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 23:15:04 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: <85a26a1b256099a7595faf4a5eff409e@paranoici.org>


On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> But could they defend themselves from the inside? Quite a 
> vulnerability. I'm sure any government agency out to compromise the
> system would be delighted to find all the constituent elements
> neatly-identified and run by "respectable" and "well-known"
> organizations. God, what more could they ask for.
>
> If the government put me in charge of subverting the remailer network, 
> I think the first thing I'd do is round myself up a nice batch of  
> friendly, respectable "professionals" with shiny impressive
> "professional" credentials (tailored exactly to match what "well-known
> organizations" are looking for) and infiltrate the hell out of every
> single organization running a node.

If the government put me in charge of subverting the remailer network, I
think the first thing I would do is round myself up a couple of 
"cypherpunks" (with anti-government, fuck-the-law attitudes) to gain the
respect of the operators of the most stable and popular remailers, and 
assume control of the remailer software development, infiltrating every 
node at the source.
 
> Meanwhile, everyone on the outside is lulled into a false sense of  
> complacency, because, after all, these 5-10 remailers are
> "well-administered and professionally maintained"-- surely we can
> trust these reasonably well-known organizations who have sufficient   
> legal firepower to defend themselves, can't we?

Proposing that the remailer network would benefit more from 10 reliable,
properly configured and legally secure remailers than 50 "mosquito
remailers" is a pure statement of fact. Mix-nets need stable nodes. You're
welcome to design a different system that allows anonymous messages to be
transmitted through short-lived temporary nodes, but I doubt it will be
anything like what we're using now.

The best way to ensure the mix-net is going to protect you is for you to
run a remailer. (Better yet, write your own remailer software). The
remailer network should never become an "old boy's club." Anyone with the
ability to maintain a stable remailer must be permitted to join.

Government involvement isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'd happily include 
both a remailer run by Hamas and a remailer run my the Mossad in my 
remailer chains.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 04:41:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 23:41:20 +1100
Subject: Taylor on rubber hose crypto
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221233500.00a71050@pop.useoz.com>


Extract ...The EFAis particularly concerned about provisions which 
authorize law enforcement officers to ask individuals to provide keys to 
encrypted data.
Mr Taylor said the Cybercrime Act was contrary to the common law privilege 
against self-incrimination.
"One of the major concerns with that is that you may not have access to the 
encryption keys or you have simply forgotten it."
Senator Ellison said the new law was consistent with the recommendations of 
the Council of Europe and would ensure Australia was leading the effort 
against cyber terrorism.
From
http://theage.com.au/news/national/2001/12/21/FFXXLRFUGVC.html


  "If "the law" is used to protect government-employed criminals, then the 
law is wrong and we should disregard that portion of it. . 
Government  agents must, therefore, expect to be accountable to the 
citizens, while  accountability in the other direction is virtually the 
definition of  tyranny." professor rat.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 06:05:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 01:05:27 +1100
Subject: Hillary style health plan to save US
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222005114.00a75e20@pop.useoz.com>


AU has a national health scheme,I used it to have a graft on my eardrum 
several years back.Didnt cost a cent.
There are gaps in the system such as long waiting lists and poor dental 
cover,its also under pressure from the economic
'rationalists' esp in the liberal party.The only reason I mention such a 
creation of the hated state is that it could  soon be a matter of life or 
death for many septic tanks.The foot and mouth outbreak in Britain would 
have been nipped in the bud a lot quicker had computerized tags been 
used.There's some scrambling around now in the US to shore up sagging 
public health infrastructure.What's probably really needed is something 
like I seem to remember Lady C proposing.I'm boosting 2 things here that on 
the surface may seem anathema to anarchists.IDs for all and socialized 
medicine.Am I wrong to?




From info at dealflo.com  Sat Dec 22 02:26:03 2001
From: info at dealflo.com (DealFlo Advisors, LLC)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 02:26:03
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200112211922.fBLJMxf463093@logs-wi.proxy.aol.com>





From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Dec 21 18:10:14 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 03:10:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
Message-ID: 


Ryan Lackey writes:
> 1) We don't yet *have* an electronic cash system with sufficient volume to
> cover this -- you'd want a general-use electronic cash system where
> purposes like this were a small part, otherwise the billing records
> show all remailer users.

It's largely a myth that the set of users of remailers is anonymous.
Remailer operators collectively know them all; individual operators know
a substantial percentage of them if people vary the remailers they use;
anyone surveilling the remailer network knows them all.  Hiding one's
membership in the set of remailer users cannot be a high priority.

And there's no need for remailer users to be anonymous, either.  Anyone
should be proud to be counted as a member of that group.  It's no more
incriminating than being a subscriber to the cypherpunks mailing list
or any of dozens of similar lists.  No doubt thousands of people would
put their names on the list even if they have no intention of ever
using remailers.

> 3) Ease of use -- it's hard enough to run mixmaster already.  The low
> hanging fruit would be in automating key management, packaging *well*
> for debian, redhat, etc., and fixing a bunch of the random bugs in
> mixmaster which cause it to blow up on certain From: addresses.  If it
> were possible to run mixmaster 3 with *no* real user intervention (no
> need to subscribe to flamey mailing lists, no need to manually fuck
> with people who change keys, no need to watch a list to edit people's
> capstrings, etc. -- then more people would run remailers.

Part of the problem has been focus on adding features to mixmaster
rather than improving security and reliability.  Transparent remixing
(where the remailer chooses part of the path for you), support for
the old insecure cypherpunk mode, automated flood detection, all add
administrative complexity for questionable benefit.  With a good high
speed connection, floods and such are much less of an issue.  Things like
remixing should be done by the clients; it was a mistake to put this
into the remailer software.

> This goes double for clients.  In the case of remailers, increasing
> volume *does* enhance privacy; if we didn't care about volume, we'd
> just use a bunch of rooted boxes through netcafes to send high-value
> anonymous messages...remailers are only useful with volume, and
> legitimate applications make them easier to defend.

Absolutely.  For all those people saying, what can I do to support
remailers, here's an easy answer: use them.  Get a client, figure out how
it works, and send an anonymous message or two.  It doesn't hurt.  Much.
You may even find it liberating.  Challenge the orthodoxy and start
thinking for yourself.

> I think the best way to get remailers widely deployed is:

You skipped step 0, which is to inform people of what it is like to run
a remailer.  It doesn't do anyone any good for remailers to pop up and
immediately shut down when the complaints come in.  Here's a good litmus
test: if you wouldn't be able to spam at reasonably high volumes from
your address without getting shut down, you probably shouldn't be
trying to run a remailer (unless in middleman mode).

> 1) Create a version of mixmaster which is much more self-running, at
> least on UNIX, OSX, and cygwin, and allows cpunks, mixmaster, and
> maybe future constant-rate or stego or other interesting transports as
> plugins -- make keying be a policy decision but with the code smart
> enough to handle updates within authority delegated to it by the
> operator.

A good idea.  See the recent proposal for a P2P style always-connected
remailer network which will bypass sendmail and all the other RFC2822
cruft.  Plugable transports would be a great way to accomplish this.

> 3) Promote the remailer and applications which make use of the
> remailer (there's nothing I've seen, other than pingers and remailer
> infrastructure, which uses remailers programmatically in some cool
> way.  Some kind of ok-with-high-latency application -- ecash tunneled
> through remailers?  Another blacknet test?  An anonymous-only message
> board?  Web publishing?  Whatever.

Eric Hughes had a cool idea a while back: encourage CP technologies
by allowing them to bypass built-in mailing list latency.  Create a
CP node which forwards PGP-signed and remailed messages with higher
priority than others.  Signing up for this node is a way of showing
support for freedom enhancing technology.

> 4) Some kind of internal or external benefits to remailer operators.
> Something along the lines of "I will throw a party at DefCon with free
> (heh) ---- and -----s for the first 20 people who can prove control of
> mixmaster remailer keys which transit test messages I send throughout
> the year (selected based on normal client criteria, such as uptime,
> latency, etc.)".  Someone could presumably donate money in a similar
> fashion.  This would provide some level of decoupling from "bank
> accounts of those who sponsor remailers" and "remailer users".
> ("convince legions of 18-25 year old females that remailer operators
> are the best in bed" would be ideal, but is probably not going to happen)

Maybe Tim May could donate his Y2K beans and rice as a prize, since he's
never been willing to use his millions to subsidize bonuses of this type.

> 5) Get more companies, universities, and non-profits to run remailers,
> as they have machines, relatively untouchable network feeds.  Why is
> there no EFF remailer?  Why is there no ACLU remailer?  Why is there
> no ZKS remailer?  I mainly started the havenco remailer for social
> and intellectual purposes, but there are slight marketing benefits to
> it as well.  I'm sure people (me.  you?) would be willing to provide
> time to help worthwhile organizations set up remailers.  Back in the
> day big companies would run public ftp sites for the common good; I
> think any organization dealing with any volume of mail today should
> feel socially pressured to run a remailer.

Keep in mind that our perception of remailers is at odds with that of
the world at large.  Fellow travellers like the EFF can't afford to be
that closely tied to a technology which most people view as an obnoxious
nuisance at best and a terrorist tool at worst.

> 6) Deal with the spam issue -- integrate something like nilsima into
> mixmaster directly, none of this procmail hackery (which I haven't
> bothered to configure myself).  This would eliminate "whitelists" and
> other cruft which decrease the reliability of the remailer network
> substantially.  Doesn't stop mailing list or newsgroup spam, but it's
> fucking 2001 (almost 2002) -- if you care that much about the 0.1
> seconds of time to delete a piece of spam, your list should be
> filtered, moderated, or posting limited to subscribers only.

Absolutely.  Simplicity and reliability have been overlooked as goals
for the remailer network.  You shouldn't start adding new features until
the old ones (like successfully remailing messages without dropping
them) work.

Nevertheless there is a political over-reaction to commercial spam, and it
can be a major source of complaints about the remailer.  Per-link hashcash
would be a better deterrant than black lists, which ultimately depend
on entry remailers to do a favor for exit remailers.

> 7) Provide a UI which doesn't suck for users -- including better
> web-based interfaces (perhaps as part of the base distribution?) with
> anti-spam measures (mixmaster+nilsima may be enough, but "copy this
> image number down" might be needed.

Split out the client, including web-based clients, from the server.
They have different needs.  If you want to promote good, reliable
servers there is no need to also make them be web clients.

> 8) Some kind of two-way communications -- which I will happily host,
> as I'm sure others will as well -- providing remailer-accessed
> mailboxes, return addresses, etc.  Less private, more linkable, but
> still pretty anonymous, as you could require all the messages to be 
> encrypted (or not), and the initial user-to-mailbox delivery is
> reliable; even if the remailer network is unreliable, you could do
> return receipts with your own client such that it will retransmit
> through the chain of remailers a couple times if need be, until you
> can guarantee receipt, before deleting from the server.  Most of the
> "antisocial" remailer-facilitated activities are hit-and-run; most of
> the *good* remailer uses require a persistent identity and two-way 
> communications.  (and, paying for a real mailbox is something which is
> not in the millicent ghetto; $20/year for a mailbox is entirely
> common, and people might be willing to pay a substantial premium for 
> anonymity)

The Freedom network had the right idea here: pipenet access to an ordinary
POP mailbox.  If remailers are joined in an always-connected P2P network
it could be used as a specialized pipenet for just this purpose.  No ZKS
anti-abuse nym protocols necessary since exit points would be restricted
to the special POP mailboxes.

> So, while I'd really like to see ecash, I think remailers need some >
other work first, before they could really benefit from the effort >
required to create an ecash system from scratch, deploy it, scale it,
> and then use it for this application.  Not that I'm saying an ecash >
system isn't worthwhile for its own sake, though :)

Non-monetary ecash does have one advantage over hashcash for proof of
work postage: it is transferable.  With hashcash, once it's spent,
it's gone and can't be reused.  With ecash (purchased by hashcash)
the payee gets to keep it and can spend it himself in the future.
In other words, remailer operators would build up riches in ecash.  Now,
all it's good for is sending anonymous messages, so they're not going
to retire on it.  But still this can fund pingers run (or paid for)
by the remops themselves.

And there could eventually be a secondary market in remailer ecash.
Remailer users would seek it as an alternative to hashcash if it were
easier to get.  They might be willing to perform services in exchange
for remailer ecash payment.  This could produce some backing for the
currency and it might come to be traded even among people who had no
desire to use remailers.  (Services might be, e.g. ripping a requested
copy protected CD via an analog connection, or digitizing a TV show
unavailable to the requestor.)




From declan at well.com  Sat Dec 22 00:35:49 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 03:35:49 -0500
Subject: More on remailers.
In-Reply-To: ; from rabbi@quickie.net on Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:21:27PM -0800
References: 
Message-ID: <20011222033549.A12042@cluebot.com>


On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:21:27PM -0800, Len Sassaman wrote:
> In conclusion, I leave you with a question: if remailer users are reduced
> to a small number of high-paying remailer customers for whom anonymity is
> not a game, but a matter of life or death, could a mix-net be made to
> provide any sufficient degree of security? "No" is the easy answer. Say
> yes, and prove it.

Seems to me like a straightforward economic analysis. Rates a remailer
operator will charge reflect his cost plus. If the rates become too
high, the remailer will go out of business. If customers perceive
their privacy is in danger because remailers are going bankrupt and
the cloud is shrinking, the remaining remailers will lose revenue and,
in extremis, again go out of business.

Assuming that all users are using the network roughly equally and
therefore paying roughly the same, this suggests there's a critical
number of users necessary to keep a for-profit network afloat.

But change the assumption about paying equally, and the critical number
may approach one. "A small number of high-paying remailer customers"
could bankroll the remailer network by providing direct subsidies to
the remailer operators or giving out free
can-be-used-for-remailing-only tokens to anyone who asks.

There might be better ways to do this, but it's late at night and I'm
getting pretty tired. But it seems like "yes" is the easy answer to
your question.

-Declan




From casions at aol.com  Sat Dec 22 06:32:04 2001
From: casions at aol.com (casions at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 06:32:04
Subject: Five Roses Casino!           
Message-ID: <200112220953.DAA73862@tata.tata.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
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From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Dec 22 06:18:36 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:18:36 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | FBI, Pentagon Talk to MS about XP Hole
Message-ID: <3C24963C.4626A749@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/22/1329253.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Dec 22 06:33:21 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:33:21 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Lawrence Lessig Answers Your Questions
Message-ID: <3C2499B1.ADFE50D5@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/12/21/155221.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Dec 22 09:51:50 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 09:51:50 -0800
Subject: Fwd: FCC Bites Kevin
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011222095106.037b54f0@pop3.lvcm.com>


>>From: someone
>>To: another list
>>Subject: FCC Bites Kevin
>>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:10:20 -0800
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>
>>Famed hacker Kevin Mitnick is also General Class radio amateur N6NHG. In 
>>December 1999 he applied to renew his ham license, but today the FCC 
>>designated the application for hearing, to determine whether he has the 
>>requisite character to remain a licensee. Mitnick or his attorney will 
>>have to appear before an administrative law judge (ALJ) if he wants to 
>>save the license.
>>
>>ALJ hearings in the amateur service are rare. They normally are reserved 
>>for flagrant cases. The FCC does not allege that Mitnick misused his ham 
>>license; it was enough that he was convicted of felonies.
>>
>>The hearing designation order (FCC 01-359, Docket WT 01-344) cites a 
>>couple of other high-profile ham license revocation cases, including Herb 
>>Schoenbohm, an FCC critic from the US Virgin Islands who reputedly 
>>misused telephone calling cards; and L.D. Brewer, a radio pirate and 
>>mail-order transmitter dealer (http://www.ldbrewer.com).
>>
>>The FCC is extremely tenacious in these cases and I think there is little 
>>chance that Kevin will retain his license.

steve




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec 22 10:32:33 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:32:33 -0800
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222165825.00a35750@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C246141.18865.763C17@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > (Except, of course, by your peculiar use of the word 
> > anarchist", whereby an anarchist is someone who supports 
> > an all powerful state that rules  by terror, similar to 
> > that which the anarchists of Catalonia wound up 
> > implementing.)

mattd
> That is a filthy lie.Last week I urged cypherpunks to 
> compare and contrast the noam chomsky article,"Objectivity 
> and liberal scholarship."with the material jamesd has on 
> display at his website.

You cite Chomsky as evidence for the truthfullness of 
Chomsky.

Now if you yourself had looked up some of his citations, and 
cited them as evidence for the truthfullness of Chomsky, then 
that would be an argument.

> No anarchist supports a powerful,or indeed,any state

Yet you cite (as evidence that I am a liar) Ian McKay's 
article on the Catalonian anarchists, in which he concedes 
that the anarchists wound up creating what most people would 
call a state, indeed a terrorist dictatorship, but argues 
that I am lying in that such a state was a good thing, and 
run by nice people, deeply concerned for the welfare of the 
masses

>.Jim Bell seems to be the closest thing to a trad anarchist
> I've seen on this site

What you are calling traditional anarchists were not 
"traditional" until 1938.  When anarcho socialists found 
themselves implementing socialism in only possible form, in 
the form of a terrorist state, some recoiled, and some 
redefined anarchy to mean rule by a terror state, rule 
unrestricted by law and based on force, reinterpreting their 
pre 1936 positions in the light of the new post 1938 
position.

>.The anarcho-capitalists here are fakes,phonies and
> frauds that are running but they cant hide,I can see the 
> whites of their eyes.Calling ted turner socialist is not 
> peculiar!?

Ted Turner calls himself socialist.  His network used to emit
commie propaganda with great regularity, though since Fox
news started in competition, they have laid off the commie 
propaganda.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     BSbnPj6NVOsPekYJdPHc+COVBPvnHr8xlMmStsdv
     4nDm5a60AmaxFgQ7NHsBloq5AdcvULkXSzKA+VkBK




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sat Dec 22 01:44:25 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:44:25 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: Government questions over Windows XP security flaws (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:24:18 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Government questions over Windows XP security flaws


>
>http://www.kfwb.com/news/nat/n122113.html

FBI, Pentagon Quiz Microsoft Over Windows XP Problems WASHINGTON (AP)
12.21.01, 4:05p -- FBI and Defense Department officials and some top
industry experts sought reassurance Friday from Microsoft Corp. that a free
software fix it offered effectively stops hackers from attacking major
flaws discovered in the latest version of Windows.
The government's rare interest in the problems with Windows XP software,
which is expected to be widely adopted by consumers, illustrates U.S.
concerns about risks to the Internet. Friday's discussions came during a
private conference call organized by the FBI's National Infrastructure
Protection Center, its top cyber-security unit.
Microsoft's experts bluntly acknowledged the threats posed by the Windows
XP problems, but they assured federal officials and industry experts that
its fix -- if installed by consumers -- resolves the issues.
The company acknowledged Thursday that Windows XP suffers from serious
problems that allow hackers to steal or destroy a victim's data files
across the Internet or implant rogue computer software. The glitches were
unusually serious because they allow hackers to seize control of all
Windows XP operating system software without requiring a computer user to
do anything except connect to the Internet.
Microsoft declined to tell U.S. officials Friday how many consumers
downloaded and installed its fix during the first 24 hours it was
available. Experts from Internet providers, including AT&T Corp., argued
that information was vital to determine the scope of the threat.
Microsoft also indicated it would not send e-mail reminders to Windows XP
customers to remind them of the importance of installing the patch.
One participant in the call, who spoke on condition of anonymity, otherwise
described Microsoft officials as "extremely forthright." Microsoft
explained that a new feature of Windows XP can automatically download the
free fix, which takes several minutes, and prompt consumers to install it.
"The patch is effective," said Steve Lipner, Microsoft's director of
security assurance, who participated in Friday's call. "There was a
discussion of the importance of the Windows auto-update capability. People
were encouraged by the fact that we'll get the patch to people."
Officials also expressed fears to Microsoft about electronic attacks
launched against Web sites and federal agencies during next week's
Christmas holidays from computers running still-vulnerable versions of
Windows, participants said.
Several experts said they had already managed to duplicate within their
research labs so-called "denial of service" attacks made possible by the
Windows XP flaws. Such attacks can overwhelm Web sites and prevent their
use by legitimate visitors.
"That was the one you'll more likely see over Christmas break," one
participant said.
Another risk, that hackers can implant rogue software on vulnerable
computers, was considered more remote because of the technical
sophistication needed.
The FBI's cyber-security unit has been particularly worried lately about
the threats from denial of service attacks. It warned again Thursday that
it "has reason to believe that the potential for (denial of service)
attacks is high."
The FBI said people have indicated they plan to target the Defense
Department's Web sites, as well as other organizations that support the
nation's most important networks.
Participants in Friday's call included the FBI; Defense Department; the
U.S. Federal Computer Incident Response Center; federally funded CERT
Coordination Center; eEye Digital Security Inc., which discovered the
Windows XP problems; Network Associates Inc.; the System Administration,
Networking and Security Institute; and others.

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 16:16:29 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:16:29 +1100
Subject: Words 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222110838.00a74180@pop.useoz.com>


 >>>"I have no doubt it (AP) will be implemented and 
protected >vigorously,everything is at stake." Jim Bell's handwritten note 
on >cigarette paper.
 > Sometimes there is meaning in misspelled or misused words. Somtimes it 
is intentional, sometimes not. I have no idea whether or not Steve Ballmer 
is viscous. Maybe mattd is into something unusual and would like to tell 
the whole class ;-)

I published an e-mail about that at melb indymedia,a few months back.Ill 
see if I can find it.It was on my dell's hard drive.
That's now in custody as an enema of the state.Puns,chess,and crypto are 
like sex,drugs and rock and roll.

 >>Merry subverted pagan winter solstice festival, every one,

Sacrifice a virgin for me.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 16:35:41 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:35:41 +1100
Subject: : More on remailers. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222112124.00a75cc0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>In conclusion, I leave you with a question: if remailer users are reduced
to a small number of high-paying remailer customers for whom anonymity is
not a game, but a matter of life or death, could a mix-net be made to
provide any sufficient degree of security? "No" is the easy answer. Say
yes, and prove it.
--Len.<<

Yes,as long as 'open source' or soft drill' assassination politics protects 
them.They use 'stamps' that float with the dollar so theres an agreed value 
and as they come under almost instant attack from tax collectors and 
terrified govts they'll clearly need a damn hardball protection system.AP 
as operation soft drill.Certainly a matter of life and death.How else would 
they avoid being nuked one way or another.The distributed versions will win 
out eventually,and the possible use of Quantum encryption would certainly 
bring it all on.It just seems to me that its a good time now to crash 
through or crash on this.
Mass civil disobedience,no shying away from horsemen,just calm clear and 
cool."Gentlemen,we're taking over now."




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Dec 22 09:51:35 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:51:35 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Pentagon to use new bomb against Afghan caves - December 22, 2001
Message-ID: <3C24C827.4DF64D1@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/22/ret.new.bomb.ap/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Dec 22 09:57:47 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:57:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Stegdetect 0.4 released and results from USENET search available  (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 09:48:44 -0500
From: Niels Provos 
To: Harald Koch 
Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
Subject: Re: Stegdetect 0.4 released and results from USENET search available 

In message <18592.1008992245 at eloise.cfrq.net>, Harald Koch writes:
>How many images are posted to usenet every *day*, never mind the sheer
>number of images stored on webservers everywhere. IANAS, but a mere one
>million messages is too small a sample set to be statistically
>significant.
Herald,

thank you for the kind consideration of our work.

How many images are posted to Usenet every day? I'd say around 50,000
a day, including GIF images and other image file types that we did not
look at [1].

Which USENET archive that stores a full feed from the time before
steganography suddenly hit the limelight of the press would you use?
We had access to a couple of Terra bytes accounting for a few months
of Usenet activity.  Thats what we looked at.

You might have heard that Usenet traffic is mostly for binary data.
That is correct but most of the binary traffic is not in images [2].

If you have any suggestions on how to increase the scope of our
analysis, I would be glad to hear them.  Alternatively, you might
conduct a study yourself as I just released most of my tools.  It
would be interesting to see something more "statistically significant" ;)

Regards,
  Niels Provos.

[1] http://www.newsadmin.com/cgi-bin/msgsummary
[2] http://www.newsadmin.com/top100bytes.htm



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From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 17:18:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:18:42 +1100
Subject: The Law of Fours
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222120237.00a81330@pop.useoz.com>


Matts law of fours

All things that interest me lately scream 4.Eg.Quantum computing in 
bio-chemistry ,an article by mark Buchanan,the question arises:might 
bio-chemistry process a quantum computation?
Its long been wondered why the 4 letter code for DNA when binary ought to 
be more efficient.
An algorithm by lov Grover suggested to apoorva Patel that the very basis 
of all life relies on quantum computers to copy its DNA and put together 
its proteins.The grover algorithm gives an exact formula for the number of 
Quantum attempts,Q,needed to find one specific element in a database of N 
things.It turns out that if N=4,then Q=1
In other words a quantum computer can distinguish between 4 distinct 
possibilities with just one attempt.
If  4 bases doubled the speed of replication it would be selected 
for.Biology exploits quantum possibilities in photosynthesis so its not to 
far fetched to wonder about quantum events in living cells.On the back page 
of my latest NS
theres some interesting stories on the creation of the first ruler.How were 
the earliest straight tools produced?
Mathematicians such as al Kempe were fascinated.The challenge to design a 
mechanism consisting of a number of rigid
links joined by simple hinges that would constrain one point to move along 
a perfect straight line.James Watt's approximate solution used just 4 
links.A mathematically accurate using 8 solved the problem in 1864.This was 
done by a french army engineer,charles-nicholas-Peaucellier.
While mathematical models that make sense are Islands in a sea of 
uncertainty,(veronica Becher,university of Buenos Aires.)and the law on the 
Island of Dr Moreu remains not to go on all fours.Four leaf clovers keep 
popping up.Cilia that resemble them,originally developed at Stanford and 
proposed for docking micro satellites by a university of washington
team can be seen at Smart materials and structures,vol 10,p 1176.
Four seasons,four horsemen,four stroke motors,Ill think of more,Im 
shure,four legs good!FORE!




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Dec 22 13:12:02 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:12:02 -0800
Subject: "Swiss bank in a box"
In-Reply-To: <20011222142951.A13383@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <8C0CF83C-F720-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 11:29 AM, Adam Shostack wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:21:27PM -0800, Len Sassaman wrote:
> |
> | In conclusion, I leave you with a question: if remailer users are 
> reduced
> | to a small number of high-paying remailer customers for whom 
> anonymity is
> | not a game, but a matter of life or death, could a mix-net be made to
> | provide any sufficient degree of security? "No" is the easy answer. 
> Say
> | yes, and prove it.
>
> No.  If your anonymity set is small, then using the system calls
> attention to you, and your adversary can simply attack all the users
> with physical layer attacks (bugged keyboards, video cameras in
> ceilings, tempest, etc.).  Further, if the user set is small you're
> probably more concerned with unobservability than with unlinkability
> or untracability.


Likewise, if only a small number of people are using Swiss banks, or Yap 
stone wheels, or nearly any other particular financial instrument then 
the anonymity set is too small. It's not too hard to know who is 
spending that Yap stone wheel.

I say "nearly" because gold, say, has some nice physical properties 
which things like currency notes, bank accounts, diamonds, etc. don't 
have: gold can be melted and all traces of origin lost, save for some 
expensive tinkering with isotopic ratios, maybe. Note that I am not 
advocating gold, and especially not E-Gold, just noting facts.)

A lot of the complaints we see about cryptographic implementations of 
things are also echoed in the real world. It's unreasonable to expect 
crypto to solve all problems. To emphasize this point: When we hear 
about limitations on the privacy of remailers or digital cash 
implementations, we should think about comparable situations with 
ordinary mail, ordinary currency, etc. A  lot of systems seemingly fail! 
The fact that we continue to use them, because they are embedded in a 
larger system (of reputations, ontological speed bumps, etc.) tells us 
that crypto is only a part of the overall picture. Too many crypto folks 
find flaws and declare the whole approach dead.

On Len's earlier point, DC Nets are the answer. The 1992 design for 
"envelopes within envelopes remailers" is just the 1981 Chaumian 
untraceable e-mail. He knew even then that it was subject to the types 
of attacks described above. Hence the DC Net. A huge amount of stuff is 
available on DC Nets, on the Web, in the CP archives, in the literature 
(Crypto and Eurocrypt Proceedings, esp. by Chaum, Pfitzmann, etc.).

Even with DC Nets, the concern is immediately one of "collusion sets" 
(or "compromised sets," if the FBI/FinCEN/NSA have instrumented nodes).

By the way, the attack that Adam describes, of the attacker placing 
video cameras and monitoring devices, is not inexpensive. For example, I 
doubt that Swiss banks in Geneva and Zurich have been compromised in 
this way...though I expect that wire transfers into and out of such 
banks are observed and recorded.

(One of the early remailers was located in a vault formerly used for an 
accelerator near Amsterdam. Pretty hard for FinCEN or NSA to get cameras 
in there. Ditto for some of the vaults in the U.K. being used for colo. 
Ditto for HavenCo (though I am not necessarily endorsing the use of 
platforms in the North Sea),)

I think the continued existence of private banking systems for high net 
worth individuals shows that even relatively small sets of interacting 
parties can achieve privacy. This may not be doable with remailers which 
are operated by, for example, 22-year-old grad students who have spent a 
couple of hours setting up a remailer on their 600 MHz Celeron box, or 
even by computer professionals like Len willing to spend more time and 
effort, but it looks doable.

Paid remailers are just as necessary for the longterm health of the 
remailer business as paid banks were and are for the banking business. 
"Swiss bank in a box" may look like a neat little bit of code to play 
with in the latest Debian code release, but it ain't really a Swiss bank.

And folks saying Swiss banks can't provide privacy because "Swiss bank 
in a box" doesn't really work very well....


--Tim May
"Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But 
stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is 
no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." 
--Robert A. Heinlein




From david_sulis at amuro.net  Sat Dec 22 13:28:03 2001
From: david_sulis at amuro.net (david_sulis at amuro.net)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:28:03 -0800
Subject: You Want Results, You Get Results!!!
Message-ID: 

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
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From steve at sendon.net  Sat Dec 22 05:32:21 2001
From: steve at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:32:21 +0000
Subject: America Psycho
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223030022.00a78dd0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <200112221547.PAA23766@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting mattd (mattd at useoz.com):
> COURT-KNAPPING In America, more than 1,200 people have so far been held in 

To paraphrase Mr. May, you're worse than Choate.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Witness
those little white men
practising their alibis.
        -- Dean Russell




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Dec 22 13:37:35 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:37:35 -0800
Subject: "True Names"
In-Reply-To: <3C237297.42D48C4C@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <1D59CCB4-F724-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Friday, December 21, 2001, at 09:34 AM, Michael Motyka wrote:

> Bought a copy of True Names and read it last night. Great story,
> especially considering the date. The first net-fi I read was Neuromancer
> in '84.
>

> Tim's essay was mostly the familiar stuff, nicely organized and
> presented. The style was almost academic but I notice he did slip one
> "spokesvermin" reference in there.

I've written about this book, and my contribution, in the past. Briefly, 
I was contacted by Vernor and Jim several years ago, asked to write a 
chapter, did so in a rushed 10-day period over Xmas 1996, and 
then....nothing. Nothing for several years, until Jim contacted me a few 
months ago and said the book was "On" again and that I needed to make 
some galley page corrections in the next 36 hours! "Hurry up and wait," 
indeed.

Jim had made some edits, which I didn't object to. I checked the galleys 
and made a few changes...I haven't checked my copy to see if he accepted 
by changes (in some cases, my changes to his changes).

It's done, and that's that. I doubt it will change the world.

> So, Tim, we seem to have raced closer if not past the fork in the road,
> especially since September. Recalling Yogi Berra's "when you come to the
> fork in the road, take it", have we taken it? And if so which path?

The "fork in the road" metaphor comes from my strong liking for 
geometrical/picture/map thinkiing (which I can't express here in ASCII 
very well, except through talking about paths, spaces, XY plots of 
cost/benefit, millicent ghettoes, sweet spots, and other things better 
expressed in the form of chalkboard drawings).

I don't want to recount what I wrote in "True Nyms," so I won't. People 
should read it if they want to see what I said then. And it's worth the 
$12-15 just to get Vernor's novella (earlier publications are going for 
absurd levels on Ebay and Amazon).

I expect we are on the "liberty" or "crypto anarchy" side of the fork in 
terms of basic speech (or encrypted speech, which is the same thing). 
However, we are on the other fork, the fork toward statism, on the 
"money" side. Now, a plausible argument can be made that "all money is 
speech," that is, what one spends money on is protected speech 
(vis-a-vis the U.S. Constitution, and vis-a-vis "normal market 
anarchies" in Indonesia, Russia, Afghanistan, etc.).

However, the Authorities seem to think that our money is _their_ money, 
and are severely restricting how we spend our money. Speak politically 
incorrect words and one may find one's bank accounts frozen under the 
PATRIOT Act. And so on. I don't need to fill in the details.

It  goes without saying that anyone attempting a real digital cash 
system must do so with no traceable nexus to himself, his programmers, 
his assets, or his physical nexus. Freezing of assets under earlier 
FinCEN and money-laundering laws would be the least of his worries.


> The fork analogy may be too simple. The natural path for a vital culture
> is the crypto-anarchist path. The path of increasing state control is
> the natural path for the maintenance and accumulation of power. We all
> see the forces in operation, it's pretty much the topic 24/7. I think
> the forces that bind this mess together increase with distance, the more
> free the net becomes the greater the perceived threat and the desire to
> reign it in. The tighter the controls the greater the desire to break
> free. On each side there are those for whom compromise is unacceptable.
> In the middle are the nearly oblivious masses who can with varying
> degrees of success be swayed one way or the other from time to time.
> Fear seems to be their main motivator.

I don't disagree with your view. The nature of the upcoming battle is 
becoming clear. This is one reason I have been hoping in recent years 
that someone simply wipes out Washington, D.C. Vaporizing the millions 
of statists and liberal fascists who work in that viper pit would be a 
public good. If some innocents die, big deal. They should get out while 
they can. If they don't, think of it as evolution in action.

> Rather than making a choice and following any single path we are
> following two concurrent and divergent paths and the energy level is
> increasing. We are headed for a period of escalation. It's definitely a
> new 'War on Drugs' scenario, just as dangerous, just as futile and just
> as sustainable.
>

Don't forget that WD I was lost by the statist side: Prohbition was 
eventually repealed, with folks dancing in the streets in ways similar 
to the way Afghanis are dancing in the streets as the Taliban were 
defeated. WD 2 is still underway, but the proles are getting restless at 
the costs, the suppression of liberties, and the jailing of their sons 
and daughters.

Again, the vaporization of Greater Washington would go a long way toward 
ending this War on (Some) Drugs. Let's just hope the reports that UBL 
and Al Quida smuggled two RP-59 suitcase nukes  to the West are correct.



--Tim May
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, 
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance 
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give 
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, 
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, 
die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." --Robert A. Heinlein




From steve at sendon.net  Sat Dec 22 05:46:32 2001
From: steve at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:46:32 +0000
Subject: book
References: <3C237297.42D48C4C@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <200112221551.PAA23941@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Michael Motyka (mmotyka at lsil.com):
> Rather than making a choice and following any single path we are
> following two concurrent and divergent paths and the energy level is
> increasing. We are headed for a period of escalation. It's definitely a
> new 'War on Drugs' scenario, just as dangerous, just as futile and just
> as sustainable.

And the _only_ people who benefit are the power-mongers in government, the
military, and big-business.  Odd, that.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Witness
those little white men
practising their alibis.
        -- Dean Russell




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Dec 22 14:19:55 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:19:55 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: <3C239EC6.16873.7C10351@localhost>
Message-ID: <07447F10-F72A-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>


I strongly endorse this post. It says things I have been planning to put 
into a post.

A few comments, but the original left unsnipped so it can be read in 
full as part of my post.

On Friday, December 21, 2001, at 08:42 PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 20 Dec 2001, at 21:00, Steve Schear wrote:
>> We should all be ashamed.  The main reason we don't have
>> the private payment system many have discussed is
>> lazyness/"better things to do with their time" by those
>> with the technical ability to create the SW (if I were one
>> of them the SW would be done by now, as I've easily spent
>> 1-2 many years and $10Ks trying to get others to write the
>> code).  Funding the payment system, as Tim has noted, is
>> not that hard.
>
> I have been working on this project for several years, and
> have not got much done.  It is a big project, to do it right,
> with a user interface that is going to be reasonably usable
> and intelligible for a casual user,  I would say it is about
> eighteen months full time work if done at home, and if done
> as a dot com business, a couple of million dollars.

This sounds about right. Pr0duct Cypher, whoever he was/is, gave us a 
crude form of digital cash almost 9 years ago. Chaum had a team of N 
(probably 3-8 at any given time, over 10+ years) working on various 
levels of digital cash implementation. However, Chaum was hobbled in 
various ways, and a smaller team could probably do it.

Why don't certain indviduals, like moi, fund digital cash? Several 
reasons:

1. As James notes, a dot com business would consume a few million 
dollars. Absent a concrete business plan, and funded only by the funder, 
this would mean about twice that in stocks and investments would have to 
be sold to fund the "few million dollars" to (maybe) complete the 
project.

2. Even with a few million in dot com funds, or several million in 
investments liquidated to generate the few million, no guarantee of 
success. Besides the fact that Chaum's company apparently spent upwards 
of ten million dollars, nothing significant came out of it (and he had 
all the patents, all the cachet). I watched the Xanadu and AMIX groups 
spend a huge amount of money. Fine people, moslty, but they missed the 
boat. (Had some person liquidated $15 million in order to fund a $7 
million Xanadu effort, I'd say they have a right to be pissed that 
little came out of it except some joking business cards reading "Chief 
Ontologist and Bottle Washer" and things like that. Don't get me wrong: 
a lot of the Xanadu and AMIX folks are my friends, but I watched them 
blow throw many millions of dollars in salaries and rentals and office 
space with almost nothing to show for it.)

(Side Note: And then there's ZKS, which apparently (according to 
estimates I have read) raised upwards of $60 million. A staff of 200 at 
one point, with latte and chai bars and hot tubs and all the rest of the 
dot.com shtick. And now, what? They tried reinventing themselves as some 
soft of "privacy consulting" firm. Maybe a few bucks in that, but I 
expect most of that $60 million has evaporated. And for individual  
investors, it would take liquidating and paying taxes on $100 million in 
assets to raise this amount of investment capital...)

3. Anyone funding this kind of effort had better do it very anonymously. 
Big Brother is constantly expanding the boundaries of the conspiracy 
laws, and the civil courts will also be called on to avenge any 
financial losses by supposedly aggrieved rights holders. While I have no 
idea who "James Donald" really is, he'd better be even more untraceable 
than he is now if he introduces a system which can by any interpretation 
"aid the Evil Doers and do harm to the children."


>
> Doing it right requires a reasonably competent programmer,
> someone with experience in producing consumer products.  Such
> people tend to be busy.  I have kids to put through college.
> Because of the illegality of likely applications, this is not
> a project that bodes well for making a lot of money.

Way too much focus has been put on making money. Not that there is 
anything wrong with making money. But too many people have tended to 
think that if they have even a glimmering of an idea, that a start-up is 
the way to finance their explorations. Not surprisingly, most of these 
developmental companies have failed miserably.

(Useful to look at companies which have succeeded. Sun commercialized, 
with Stanford's permission and partial ownership, the Stanford 
University Network (SUN). Cisco commercialized some networking systems 
_also_ deployed at Stanford. A moral here. Ebay went after the 
low-hanging fruit of computerizing simple classified ads and adding 
auctions (even as my friends at AMIX had earlier been working on more 
sophisticated versions of Hayekian agoric markets...thus missing the Pez 
collectibles!))
>

> This project is the upper edge of what can be done by an
> enthusiast.  Having done it, then comes the scary part --
> deploying it.  No way can I deploy it -- I have too many
> assets.   Anyone that has the skills and time needed to
> create this is apt to have too many assets to himself deploy
> it.

This is my fear as well.

Even _donating_ to such a development effort can expose one's assets to 
seizure. (Pace the recent seizures of pro-Palestine contributors. In 
Amerika, your money is not really your own anymore.)

People with assets could flee the country, renounce, blah blah, and 
maybe, if the Feds let the assets escape the country, have the funds and 
the freedom to fund such an effort.

But what would they get? Only a handful of people seem to have the 
skills to independently develop digital cash.

The chances are very good that the effort would be by some people who 
really didn't know what they were doing, who spent their time shopping 
for Herman Miller chairs and espresso machines for the company 
entertainment pod, and who basically were drones.  We've seen it happen 
a dozen times.

Is there any hope at all?

Yes. The best work has always been done by one or two people at a time. 
This applies to software as well.  (Not so much to chips anymore, at 
least not for the past 20 years. Another topic.)

A person with the dedication and skill of a Stallman could probably 
implement digital cash without having the Herman Miller chairs, the hot 
tub up on the roof of the office building, the staff of marketdroids, 
and the espresso machines.

There's some hope.

--Tim May
"The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the 
expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat




From adam at homeport.org  Sat Dec 22 11:29:51 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:29:51 -0500
Subject: More on remailers.
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011222142951.A13383@weathership.homeport.org>


On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:21:27PM -0800, Len Sassaman wrote:
| 
| In conclusion, I leave you with a question: if remailer users are reduced
| to a small number of high-paying remailer customers for whom anonymity is
| not a game, but a matter of life or death, could a mix-net be made to
| provide any sufficient degree of security? "No" is the easy answer. Say
| yes, and prove it.

No.  If your anonymity set is small, then using the system calls
attention to you, and your adversary can simply attack all the users
with physical layer attacks (bugged keyboards, video cameras in
ceilings, tempest, etc.).  Further, if the user set is small you're
probably more concerned with unobservability than with unlinkability
or untracability.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From memyemc1218 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 22 14:43:25 2001
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From: arpa_inform at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Bell)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:01:25
Subject: Hey you.
Message-ID: <261.382874.824779@yahoo.com>



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From anonymous at coward.org  Sat Dec 22 06:08:50 2001
From: anonymous at coward.org (anonymous at coward.org)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:08:50 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Hillary style health plan to save US
In-Reply-To: <20011222110101.84648.qmail@weltregierung.koeln.ccc.de>
Message-ID: 



mattd wrote:

> AU has a national health scheme,I used it to have a graft on my eardrum
> several years back.Didnt cost a cent.
> There are gaps in the system such as long waiting lists and poor dental
> cover,its also under pressure from the economic
> 'rationalists' esp in the liberal party.The only reason I mention such a
> creation of the hated state is that it could  soon be a matter of life or
> death for many septic tanks.The foot and mouth outbreak in Britain would
> have been nipped in the bud a lot quicker had computerized tags been
> used.There's some scrambling around now in the US to shore up sagging
> public health infrastructure.What's probably really needed is something
> like I seem to remember Lady C proposing.I'm boosting 2 things here that
> on the surface may seem anathema to anarchists.IDs for all and
> socialized medicine. Am I wrong to?

YES, you are. The aims don't justify the means (initiatory-force regulation
of healthcare which is what will happen). Besides that you're not going to
reach the aims anyways. Look at what is happening on europe: all
insurances are forced on the government standard -- politicians dictate
what medicine should be used, prohibiting expensive and alternative
products and therapies. The REAL price ultimately includes 
governmentalisation and bureauratization of practiced medicine. People
have to pay more and more for public healthcare tax because the public
insurance (and the gov's healthcare standard to which all insurances
have to adhere) isn't rentable.

Public healthcare was Hillary's masterpiece of economic destruction
back then. Be happy that it didn't come to it. Please don't fall for
those lawyer-type destructions and antiindivdualistic intrusions for
Mrs C's often-cited, very own "social good".






From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Dec 22 13:30:59 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:30:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Swiss bank in a box"
In-Reply-To: <8C0CF83C-F720-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> --Tim May
> "Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But 
> stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is 
> no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." 
> --Robert A. Heinlein

Even the 'smartest' die. So in some sense they must be 'stupid' too...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Sat Dec 22 16:46:22 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:46:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Swiss bank in a box"
Message-ID: <200112230046.fBN0kcB21188@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Tim wrote:

> ...gold can be melted and all traces of origin lost, save for some
> expensive tinkering with isotopic ratios, maybe.

Gold, last I looked, had a single stable isotope which accounted for 100%
of its natural abundance.  79-Au-197.

One piece of pure stable gold is indistinguishable from another. 

So if your gold is pure and isn't radioactive, it hasn't been tagged by
isotopic ratio tweeks.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 22:22:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:22:24 +1100
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222165825.00a35750@pop.useoz.com>


 >>because almost all the libertarians here are anarchists.

I think we are all out of libertarians.(phew!) Fresh air...Aaahh!

 >>(Except, of course, by your peculiar use of the word "anarchist", 
whereby an anarchist is some who supports an all powerful state that rules 
by terror, similar to that which the anarchists of Catalonia wound up 
implementing.)

That is a filthy lie.Last week I urged cypherpunks to compare and contrast 
the noam chomsky article,"Objectivity and liberal scholarship."with the 
material jamesd has on display at his website.Also I just reviewed a book 
on spain at Amazon
called "Durutti: The People Armed.if anyones interested.Jamesd is a proven 
liar on libertarian socialism,communism and anarchism.He seems rational 
enough on all subjects other than those.No anarchist supports a powerful,or 
indeed,any state.Jim Bell seems to be the closest thing to a trad anarchist 
I've seen on this site.The anarcho-capitalists here are fakes,phonies and 
frauds that are running but they cant hide,I can see the whites of their 
eyes.Calling ted turner socialist is not peculiar!? 




From bodo at openssl.org  Sat Dec 22 08:29:57 2001
From: bodo at openssl.org (Bodo Moeller)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:29:57 +0100
Subject: OpenSSL version 0.9.6c released
Message-ID: <20011222172957.A16597@cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>

OpenSSL version 0.9.6c released
===============================

OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS
http://www.openssl.org/

The OpenSSL project team is pleased to announce the release of version
0.9.6c of our open source toolkit for SSL/TLS.  This new OpenSSL version
is mostly a bugfix release and incorporates at least 40 changes to the
toolkit (for a complete list see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES).

The most significant changes are:

    o Various SSL/TLS library bugfixes.
    o BIGNUM library fixes.
    o RSA OAEP and random number generation fixes.
    o Object identifiers corrected and added.
    o Add assembler BN routines for IA64.
    o Add support for OS/390 Unix, UnixWare with gcc, OpenUNIX 8,
      MIPS Linux; shared library support for Irix, HP-UX.
    o Add crypto accelerator support for AEP, Baltimore SureWare,
      Broadcom and Cryptographic Appliance's keyserver
      [in 0.9.6c-engine release].

We consider OpenSSL 0.9.6c to be the best version of OpenSSL available
and we strongly recommend that users of older versions upgrade as
soon as possible.  OpenSSL 0.9.6c is available for download via HTTP
and FTP from the following master locations (you can find the various
FTP mirrors under http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html):

  o http://www.openssl.org/source/
  o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/

[1] OpenSSL comes in the form of two distributions this time.
The reasons for this is that we want to deploy the external crypto device
support but don't want to have it part of the "normal" distribution just
yet.  The distribution containing the external crypto device support is
popularly called "engine", and is considered experimental.  It's been
fairly well tested on Unix and flavors thereof.  If run on a system with
no external crypto device, it will work just like the "normal" distribution.

The distribution file names are:

    o openssl-0.9.6c.tar.gz [normal]
    o openssl-engine-0.9.6c.tar.gz [engine]

Yours,
The OpenSSL Project Team...  

  Mark J. Cox             Richard Levitte    Andy Polyakov
  Ralf S. Engelschall     Bodo Möller        Holger Reif
  Dr. Stephen Henson      Ulf Möller         Geoff Thorpe
  Ben Laurie              Lutz Jänicke       



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From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 22:48:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:48:49 +1100
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability
  tracking,Honig to god
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222174520.00a3b3c0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>>The reasons for this have been debated over and over.  We're at an
 >impasse.

Its not possible for the mousetrap builders to generate interest
in the better stopping of mice.  We don't control the silos of grain
nor the investors therein.  Do not thrash your soul over this.

D.Honig

Thanks david,This little black rats taken a deep breath and moved 
on.Soulthrashing sounds like fun though.Is it similar to Hellraising?




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 21 23:43:05 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:43:05 +1100
Subject: Cyber liberty, the lamers crypto-anarchy
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222180910.00a3c030@pop.useoz.com>


Tim May made a faustian pact when he chose crypto-anarchy over 
cyber-liberty.By choosing crypto he chose wisely and well.Kudos to a 
techhead with a screwed down 'tude.We can all see where 'cyber' pulled 
up.Crypto will always posses hidden mystery,"Get stiff in your 
crypt!."Cyber is spacey and losing value."Cyber on dude!",Yeah 
right.Entropy city.
Now we come to anarchy.No one owns it and if they did,they're 
dead,right?...Wrong. L.Beam didnt invent leaderless resistance and Tim May 
didn't invent the word 
'anarchy'.See,proudon,bakunin,kropotkin,malatesta,infoshop,etc.
See,there was a bunch of people who called themselves anarchists before 
Timmy was born,while he was spouting methane and there will be anarchists 
after mays funereal day.They let fools use their good name as long as its 
not abused and/or twisted out of shape to much.When its pimped,flogged and 
perverted they may have something to say.
Well what's this all got to do with me? I hear YOU say.Only,like the cliche 
goes,If you dont know Hirstory...
It'll repeat on you.With the present govt budget for repression anyone 
vaguely associated with anarchy could easily and quickly share the fate of 
all those hundreds of thousands of anarchists who've been slaughtered by 
the states;fascists and communists states.It wont stop the homeland defence 
force when you say your a capitalist or even a Christian.The moniker 
anarchist will be your fatal injection.Better run while the runnins 
good,curse that damn mule Tim May as you run,but run like hell,cos the 
state is like the pharaoh in ancient Egypt.They don't like their slaves 
goofin' off and gettin' ideas.
Bad play Timmy,you aint no fuckin' moses,you aint even crazy abe.No,sad to 
say,Tim Mays the latter day Onan and if we don't start calling ourselves 
cyber-libertarians soon,we'll all be turned to piles of salt or nailed to a 
tree.Merry crypto Xmas.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 00:00:33 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:00:33 +1100
Subject: Cypherpunks in the C.R.A.P.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222185343.00a36a40@pop.useoz.com>


Hospital internet system could spot bioterrorist attack
10:09 17 December 01
Duncan Graham-Rowe
A computerized early warning system may soon be monitoring US hospitals for 
the first signs of a bioterrorist attack. By raising the alarm quickly, it 
could reduce the spread of diseases such as smallpox, say its developers.

Called the Lightweight Epidemiology Advanced Detection and Emergency 
Response System, it should spot outbreaks of infectious diseases before 
doctors are even aware of a problem, says Brigadier General Klaus Schafer, 
assistant surgeon general for medical readiness, science and technology for 
the US Air Force.

Via a secure internet connection, LEADERS can extract details of patients' 
symptoms and lab results from hospital records, regardless of what software 
a hospital uses. This means hospital staff won't have to do any extra work, 
says Schafer. "Nurses don't have time to enter stuff into a computer," he 
says.Leaders,patriot etc,its time for C.R.A.P
Yes the Committee for Reform of An acronym Policy is in the house.Please 
push hard and give C.R.A.P. all you can.

Happy Politically Correct Holidays
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit
my best wishes for an environmentally conscious,
socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive,
gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice
holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable
traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice,
or secular practices of your choice, with respect for
the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of
others, or their choice not to practice religious or
secular traditions at all . . .
. . and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling,
and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset
of the generally accepted calendar year 2002, but not
without due respect for the calendars of choice of
other cultures whose contributions to society have
helped make America great, (not to imply that America
is necessarily greater than any other country or is
the only "AMERICA" in the western hemisphere), and
without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical
ability, religious faith, or choice of computer
platform of the wishee.

(By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these
terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or
withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no
alteration to the original greeting. It implies no
promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the
wishes for her/himself or others, and is void
where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole
discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to
perform as expected within the usual application of
good tidings for a period of one year, or until the
issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever
comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of
this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole
discretion of the wisher.)

No attorneys were harmed in the making of this
greeting.
Happy Holidays!




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 00:13:04 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:13:04 +1100
Subject: Sandy Sandfort! Im on a winner!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222191008.00a3cab0@pop.useoz.com>


Earn $250 by punching Proffr1 in the face
by Mr $250 2:05pm Sat Dec 22 '01
A $250 bounty exists for the person or persons who avails themselves the 
pleasure of punching Matthew Taylor in the face.
To redeem the $250 bounty the punch in the face will require him to fall to 
the ground and or draw blood.
Evidence of the punch to the face and contact details of where the money 
should be sent to should be posted on Indymedia. (melb)

RINSE and REPEAT! Theres one born every minute.




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From: nikki at sexyslutsforyou.com (nikki at sexyslutsforyou.com)
Date: 22 Dec 2001 21:31:18 -0000
Subject: Instant Access Granted
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From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 05:03:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:03:27 +1100
Subject: More on remailers. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222234522.00a37eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Seems to me like a straightforward economic analysis. Rates a remailer 
operator will charge reflect his cost plus. If the rates become too high, 
the remailer will go out of business. If customers perceive their privacy 
is in danger because remailers are going bankrupt and the cloud is 
shrinking, the remaining remailers will lose revenue and, in extremis, 
again go out of business. Assuming that all users are using the network 
roughly equally and therefore paying roughly the same, this suggests 
there's a critical number of users necessary to keep a for-profit network 
afloat. But change the assumption about paying equally, and the critical 
number may approach one. "A small number of high-paying remailer customers" 
could bankroll the remailer network by providing direct subsidies to the 
remailer operators or giving out free can-be-used-for-remailing-only tokens 
to anyone who asks. There might be better ways to do this, but it's late at 
night and I'm getting pretty tired. But it seems like "yes" is the easy 
answer to your question. -Declan <<

Straightforward economic analysis,how refreshing! From our resident 
comped,bottom feeding scribbler. If its true Amazon just turned a profit 
then the strong possibility exists that the 1st strong and trusted remailer 
will eventually do the same.The need for remailing should tend to 
exponential to anyone with a little imagination.A lot of people right now 
are looking for a new Hawala,others for spam and AP,other horsemen type 
uses and counters to the threats they pose.The AP threat to capitalism as 
we know it should not be underestimated as also the threat to 
infrastructure from hungry mobs,collapse of govts not prepared for,etc.The 
dynamic effects and turbulence created could easily tear the large nodes to 
bits.Slow but steady with distrib and P-P is agent Faustines bet and Ill 
take her up on it.The fate of the earth might come down to a few decent 
secret agents leaking us info and possibly taking direct action against 
insane attempts to start ww4.Its late in our participation in mass 
extinction events,Im getting tired as well.Say goodnight to joshua.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 05:10:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:10:02 +1100
Subject: prisoners dilemma, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223000838.00a72eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: Re:  prisoners dilemma,trapped in a privatised prison hellhole.
 >>Yes, but the bigger they are the shorter they survive. It's sort of like 
'virtual particles'. For a given energy level they can exist for only so 
long. <<
Que? Bigger what are? Stable states of anarchy? Lets create a global one 
and synchronize our watches.Wheres your cite's?
 >>I think the goal is to build a society that is long lived and intrudes 
on the affairs of the individual a minimal amount.
In "age of empires?"trad anarchist theory?Situationalism?Cypherpunks 
list?On this list anarcho-capitalism or libertarianism is often said to be 
the goal-a quote on that from Salon..."No libertarian state, after all, has 
ever existed in the world. (America, incessantly denounced by libertarians 
as a Great Satan of regulation, is, ironically but not surprisingly, much 
closer to being that free state than any other developed nation.) This 
gives libertarianism a futuristic allure that resonates with high-tech 
visionaries -- but it also raises suspicions that the whole thing is a pipe 
dream, a vaporous, almost psychotically elaborate "system" that resembles 
an elaborate science fiction alternate universe, or that plan labored on by 
Swift's Lagadan "projector" for extracting sunbeams out of cucumbers. When 
something has never been attempted, it may be because mankind has not 
evolved sufficiently -- or it may be because it can't be. (Of the 
libertarian belief that all social difficulties would vanish if a perfectly 
free market system could be established, the Burkean conservative Russell 
Kirk wrote, "This was very like saying that if only the Sermon on the Mount 
were universally obeyed to the letter, sin would vanish from among men. The 
trouble is that the Sermon on the Mount will not triumph until the end of 
all things earthly. There exist reasons for believing that the ideal 
universal free market is nearly so difficult of attainment.")
Libertarianism's cold, Platonic perfectionism arouses suspicions. (Plato's 
Republic, like the libertarian utopia, is divided hierarchically -- and 
it's a safe bet that few libertarians believe that when the great Free 
Market Future dawns they will find themselves shoveling coal in the Race of 
Iron Steel Mill.) There is something lab-coaty about this philosophy, 
something that conjures up images of '50s scientists with wire-rimmed 
glasses and crew cuts: "3:05. We removed all governmental controls. 
Seventeen subjects died of malnutrition. Three became wealthy. Plague broke 
out in the southwest quadrant. The experiment continued without further 
incident."

AP? Id like to hear Jim's opinion.Jim Bell that is.I repeat...Possible to 
have smuggled posts from former list members published? Several > books 
have been written this way. > Information does want to be free. >




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 05:39:37 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:39:37 +1100
Subject: Earth to Al Qaeda.When the going gets tough,the tough turn
  proffr.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223001820.00a72c90@pop.useoz.com>


Proffr1 as devils advocate.OK,things did not go as planned,the lousy 
Infidel prefer to drop bombs and kill by remote control.
No sweat.A guerilla campaign will start sooner or later and the next time 
it could be different.How?
Through the grace of allah,blessed be to allah,we now stand ready to launch 
operation soft drill.All you need is the internet,e-dinars and your 
targets.The US airforce,all relatives and friends of members of the US 
airforce,all those who supply and cater to the US air force.Hell,almost any 
large crowd of norte americano tax payers.
See the problem when you kill so many innocents as you did in africa and 
new york is the blowback is brutal.
The beauty of targeted action or assassination politics is only the perp 
gets popped.Its easier to sell.The price on your head could go through the 
roof but its so high now its practically meaningless to raise it and we are 
prepared for eternal martyrdom with the virgins anyway,right?
To sum up,dont despair.You have much to be proud of,from saving our friends 
in FARC to spreading the good news of Hawala.From restoring the classic NYC 
skyline to striking the very heart of evil at the pentagon.From showing the 
awesome leveraged might of low tech-high concept attack as best 
defence,just in time manufacturing and low hierachy with strict 'need to 
know',global strategy,public relations and marketing brilliance,(at least 
early on)and distributed sleeper networks with internet links,al quada has 
blazed some new trails down which some/one have already followed.Salaam and 
shookoran to you,may allah bless and keep you safe.The last empire will 
fall,trust me on this.Stand on me.Your bud,proffr1




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 05:46:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:46:24 +1100
Subject: Danny Glover Under Attack by Oliver North
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223004300.00a74960@pop.useoz.com>


Danny Glover Under Attack by Oliver North et al (english)
by popopo 12:15am Sat Dec 22 '01 (Modified on 3:18am Sat Dec 22 '01)
because he is against the death penalty and that is being used to target 
him in another one of these right-wing smear campaigns the country is so 
fond of right now.
Subject: Fwd: FW: Danny Glover Under Attack
---------- From: Juliette Beck 


Ryan Lackey writes:
>    You need to make it easy to join the set (use standard protocols,
>    no client software, and ideally make it require no user knowledge
>    of the deeper darker purpose behind it all), and make it worthwhile to
>    join the set (ideally a non-security non-messaging benefit, like
>    "cool porn" or whatever)

What do you mean, "no client software"?  How do you propose to get secure
anonymous mail without client software?

>    2) 2-way communication is inherently much harder to secure, but
>    is socially beneficial.  Without socially beneficial uses, it's
>    going to be a long and unpleasant battle, as it will be very hard
>    to attract users.  Regulation is NOT the reason PR matters;
>    perception by users is.

A form of 2-way communication is possible already; this exchange is an
example.  Private (one to one) 2-way anonymous communication is harder,
but in many cases it will be practical to use a group as a mediator.
See the various PGP-encrypted posts on sci.crypt to Beale Screamer,
who broke a Microsoft digital licensing scheme.

Exitence of socially beneficial uses is good for political reasons and
perhaps for getting people to run remailers, but has little impact on ease
of attracting users.  Users will be attracted for their own purposes,
whether they are socially beneficial or not.  Harrassment or anonymous
love letters may not be socially beneficial but they are part of what
people want to use remailers for.  You seem to be implying that people
won't want to use remailers for some good purpose just because they have
a bad rep.  Do many people really think that way?

>    3) "Sending anonymous mail" is *not* a compelling end-user
>    application on a wide scale;	nowhere	near "have all the music you
>    want available for free", "have arbitrary prohibited pornography"
>    or "pay people anonymously". 

No, but "communicating anonymously" is a *very* important addition to
those other compelling applications you list.  As the RIAA and governments
crack down, people will want a way for people to trade music or porn
without putting their IPs out on the net.  Of course, email is not the
appropriate transport for these applications.  Maybe the conclusion should
be that anonymous email should be seen as a special case of anonymous
communications.  Don't solve anonymous email, solve anonymous comm.

A recent message on coderpunks proposed an alternative way to do
anonymous mail: use pipenet as a transport for ordinary SMTP email.
It was pointed out that timing information could link up the inward and
outward connection in pipenet (a problem for any low-latency, transient
connection).  This could be addressed in part by maintaining several
always-on, constant-traffic dummy channels into the pipenet.

>    4) Latency must be low.  Anonymous (or at least private) online
>    chat is more interesting to
>    users than email.  Feds own EFnet servers with regularity; people
>    discuss plenty of interesting things on IRC, vs. most email.  But,
>    anonymous or even encrypted chat systems are a good deal more
>    complex than mail.  Also, low latency is good for messaging.
>    Normal mail is "near realtime"; mixmaster is anything but.  (most
>    of the people who are likely to be users of anonymity are more
>    comfortable with chat than email anyway.

In fact, many remailer users do preferentially choose low-latency
remailers (partially because there tends to be a correlation between low
latency and high reliability).  And it makes online exchanges easier.
Our various "Nomen Nescio" commentators are going through a remailer with
only 5 minute latency.

The problem is that low latency, low enough for chat, file exchange,
web browsing etc. introduces many new technical challenges in terms of
preserving anonymity.  Still it is so much more useful that it would seem
that working on solving those problems would be a better use of effort
than doing anonymous email better.  And as noted above, a remailing
system might result for free.

> (indeed, "develop e-cash to use as postage for remailers" is kind of
> putting the cart before the horse; "develop remailers to use to
> transport intermediate results of electronic cash operations" is the
> proper causality, I think)

Again, true with the proviso that it is not anonymous email you want,
but a general form of anonymous connectivity.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Dec 23 01:29:24 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:29:24 -0800
Subject: Pay per use remailers and remailer reliability tracking.
In-Reply-To: <07447F10-F72A-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3C239EC6.16873.7C10351@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011222155725.0380c230@idiom.com>


At 02:19 PM 12/22/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Yes. The best work has always been done by one or two people at a time.
>This applies to software as well.  (Not so much to chips anymore,
>at least not for the past 20 years. Another topic.)

>A person with the dedication and skill of a Stallman could
>probably implement digital cash without having the Herman Miller chairs,
>the hot tub up on the roof of the office building, the staff of 
>marketdroids, and the espresso machines.
>
>There's some hope.

Espresso is important, basic machines are cheap, and the real decision
is whether walking down to Starbucks to avoid making it yourself
is more an interruption to your concentration or an opportunity
to spend time in the real world and to check out the Mondex smartcard machine
that Starbucks gave up on using :-)

But the easy part of doing digital cash is the software,
and it doesn't take years of Stallman-level or Chaum-level or
Ian-or-Ben-or-Lucky-level wizardry to produce it, though it's
really helpful to have their insights into what didn't work
and what pieces were useful for consumer-quality realizability.

Lots of people can turn the algorithms into reliable code;
lots of people can build user interfaces, though you if you want
it to run on the latest Microsoft GUI API environments and
all Mac environments from 6.5 through 10.1.2Coca you'll need a few
extra helpers to add the ugly details.  (*I* could even do the programming,
though you'd get a basic web forms interface and a text interface
that looks suspiciously like "throw stone knife at dwarf", "404 Knife Not 
Found",
with none of that modern Javascruft or "ncurses" aesthetics in it :-)

The hard part is getting people to take the stuff.
30 years of Kernighan, Ritchie, and Thompson, 20 years of Stallman and 
Gilmore,
15 years of X and Gosling, and 10 years of PGP & Linux has gotten us 
partway to
World Domination in technical areas, often by getting the good parts stolen 
badly
by the bigger commercial interests, but money's harder to change;
Black & Scholes and Fair & Isaac and Milken and Visa/MC/AX and Schwab and
later E-Trade and just possibly PayPal have changed things,
but Mondex didn't happen, and Micropayments didn't happen,
and in spite of all of Hettinga's enthusiam and Chaum's business acumen,
anonymous digital bearer cash hasn't successfully rocked the world.
It not only takes technical skills to ship working stuff,
it takes business skills to find a market where it works and
promote it enough that enough people are using it that
some level of anonymity can actually happen.

Lucky and the Mark Twain Bank had the technology, and had the
service working in the abstract, aside from the minor problem that
there was nothing to buy except pictures of Cypherella
before they stopped allowing that, though perhaps if they'd
been a bit later to market and jumped into E-Bay when PayPal did
they could have pulled it off (or perhaps not - that's a market
where reputations have a really high value, and you'd have to
structure an escrow market around your digicash that would
undo most of the anonymity even if the digicash provided it.)

Doug and the Austin Cypherpunks Credit Union folks had the technical skills,
and the interesting hook that in the US, Credit Unions have
much less regulation than Real Banks, but figuring out how to make money
from such an activity was tough, and unlike MTB, they decided not
to launch a business they didn't know how to make money with :-)

Getting the real thing working requires real marketing skills
and being in the right place at the right time; occasionally
you can hit it off, like the kid who wrote WinAmp and was pressured
by his parents into making it Shareware and not just freeware,
or the Hotmail folks causing the free-web-based-email wave
(and catalyzing many of the appallingly stupid Dot-Com Business Plans.)

Perhaps one advantage of the dot-com crash is that people starting
businesses today are much more likely to do the solid business planning
and the initial technical decisions before they get enough
funding to leave the garage and hire the 200 programmers that
it takes to prevent any real work from being done while you're
having meetings to coordinate development of the hot-tub-scheduling website.

But if you're not going to use the marketdroids, you have to find
some really solid alternative to get the stuff widely used.
Maybe it's as simple as finding the next Ochoa brothers and
showing them how selling bearer cash cards can help their business,
now that the tough part is moving the green paper and not the white powder,
but the nearest recent equivalent was The Napster Brothers,
and they didn't successfully capitalize their need for a payment system.
Mojo Nation may have been a bit closer, as a small dedicated group
of enthusiasts working on a payment system combined with a transport mechanism
for the goodz, but they didn't pull it off either.




From jei at cc.hut.fi  Sat Dec 22 15:41:39 2001
From: jei at cc.hut.fi (Jei)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:41:39 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Privilege to Communicate
Message-ID: 


Next: Licence to e-mail?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:31:35 -0500
From: Sean Donelan 
Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications 
To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Privilege to communicate

Once the government requires individuals to obtain a license or
ID card to engage in an activity, the government can also decide
not to issue the license or ID card thereby prohibiting a person
from engaging in that activity.

The FCC decided not to automatically renew Kevin Mitnick's ham
radio license.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-01-359A1.pdf
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23494.html

If the US decides to issue a National ID card required to travel
on planes, trains and automobiles; any guess if it will be a "right"
or a "privilege?"


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From ryan at havenco.com  Sat Dec 22 17:50:28 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:50:28 +0000
Subject: More on remailers
Message-ID: <20011223015027.GA15691@atreides.havenco.com>


(wow, this is the most interesting discussion on cypherpunks in
months -- thanks Len!)

My security philosophy is:
   1) You need to make the set of people who can't
   provably not	have sent messages larger than is worth investigating.
   Ideally, make the set that of all internet users. The set of
   people who use remailers today is not big enough; the set of people
   who use a web-based anonymizing gateway easily could be.  The set
   of people who post binaries to usenet may be.

   You need to make it easy to join the set (use standard protocols,
   no client software, and ideally make it require no user knowledge
   of the deeper darker purpose behind it all), and make it worthwhile to
   join the set (ideally a non-security non-messaging benefit, like
   "cool porn" or whatever)

   2) 2-way communication is inherently much harder to secure, but
   is socially beneficial.  Without socially beneficial uses, it's
   going to be a long and unpleasant battle, as it will be very hard
   to attract users.  Regulation is NOT the reason PR matters;
   perception by users is.

   3) "Sending anonymous mail" is *not* a compelling end-user
   application on a wide scale;	nowhere	near "have all the music you
   want available for free", "have arbitrary prohibited pornography"
   or "pay people anonymously".   Sending anonymous mail is a niche
   app but is also interesting as it is the same as "send protocol
   messages for other protocols, such as electronic cash,
   anonymously".  Until there are real applications which can provide
   large user communities, communicating automatically, with a high
   desire for anonymity, the best chance is to create low-effort, 
   not-necessarily-low-security remailer systems which increase the
   user community to the largest extent, spreading the collusion set
   even though the average user could be vulnerable.

   4) Latency must be low.  Anonymous (or at least private) online
   chat is more interesting to
   users than email.  Feds own EFnet servers with regularity; people
   discuss plenty of interesting things on IRC, vs. most email.  But,
   anonymous or even encrypted chat systems are a good deal more
   complex than mail.  Also, low latency is good for messaging.
   Normal mail is "near realtime"; mixmaster is anything but.  (most
   of the people who are likely to be users of anonymity are more
   comfortable with chat than email anyway.

   5) User-Group is as interesting as User-User.  If you require
   something which is opt-in, it will be difficult to communicate with
   mailing lists.  Encrypted group chat is good.  Use gale! (www.gale.org)

(indeed, "develop e-cash to use as postage for remailers" is kind of
putting the cart before the horse; "develop remailers to use to
transport intermediate results of electronic cash operations" is the
proper causality, I think)

Being a wolf in sheep's clothing isn't very useful if you're not
surrounded by sheep -- one "sheep" in a desert would look pretty
suspicious.  However, to successfully be a wolf hiding in a herd
requires that you look like a sheep, at least to casual inspection.
It does not require that the sheep themselves be equipped to go toe to
toe with the shepherd's dog.

(rambling level 1, skip if you're bored)

I disagree that a remailer user is necessarily identifiable to "users
of remailers" using current systems...but if you require a means of
payment to send messages, you are increasing the difficulty in
avoiding being in that set.  (of course most remailer users today are
observable in communicating with most remailers)

If I were sending a "life or death" remailed message, I would focus on
being unobservable and unlinkable -- inject the message into the
remailer fabric using 802.11b access "borrowed", or a netcafe, or
breaking into an office at night, or sending out a worm which
transmits its encrypted payload at some point in the future, or
whatever else.  (it is important these activities do not draw
attention themselves).  I'm working on getting an nntp feed sorted out
for HavenCo; once that's done, remailer.havenco.com will pick up and
drop off messages encrypted in a newsgroup.  I'd consider using a web
frontend via a web anonymizer; more commercial focus seems to have
gone into web anonymization.

Assume all network feeds in and out of the top-20 remailers are
monitored.  (I'm not at all certain mine are, but in general)  Being
identified as a routine user of anonymous remailers would thus open
you up to in-person visits from agents on fishing expeditions, black
bag monitoring, etc.  Exactly what you don't want if you're
operating covertly.  A one-off current remailer message isn't a big
deal, but if you were to build an *application* on top of remailers,
like mailing out kiddie porn to people on request, or software serial
numbrs, or running an assassination politics server, the feds would be
more likely to step up covert monitoring to try to catch people than
to try to shut down the remailers themselves.  (perhaps I'm
overestimating the intelligence of the FBI, but In cases of defence
'tis best to weigh The enemy more mighty than he seems...)

(if this were underway, I think you'd see the remailers they couldn't
compromise dropping off due to unseen technical problems, difficulties
with upstream ISPs, flooding, spam using the remailer as an exit, or
perhaps other actions where the attackers involvement was deniable)

But -- none of these attacks compromise remailers themselves.  Even if
you put the remailers in bank vaults, being identified as a member of
the ~500-1000 regular users of remailers, where you need to have a
continuing involvement.

Thus, in *practice*, I don't see the remailer network of today as
being substantially more secure against likely threats than a single
very strong remailer which you trust.  If I trusted me, I'd be more
comfortable using a single-hop remailer accessed via a steganographic
channel than in using some DC-net, infinitely-untraceable-internally
fabric which only had 500 externally-visible users (of which I'd be
one).

I've had in testing a simple, secure SSL smtp/pop3/imap/webmail
system, which should be ready to go into production shortly.  I'm
putting more resources into that than into remailers because I think
the "market space" occupied by anon.penet.fi is far more socially
beneficial than the "market space" occupied by mixmaster remailers.  
Specifically:

(rambling verbosity 2, encouraged to skip)


0) Mixmaster is one-way.  This is only good for abuse, and a VERY
small number of socially beneficial uses.  Even in the cases of
"whistleblowing", a 2-way communications method is needed.  A two-way
system is much more socially beneficial; can more easily keep the service
as a whole operating, even if individual accounts are shut off for
abuse, by pointing at a large number of "redeeming" uses.  It's
ultimately a PR and a technical battle, not a legal one.

1) Mixmaster can't provide "AP-level" security, due to small user
population and collusion set; mail.havenco.com can and can't -- you
need to trust the operator somewhat more unless you encrypt all your
traffic, and normal means of access have inbuilt "pooling" in that
they're spooled on the server automatically.  If you access via covert
means, either a general web anonymizer, or encrypted dead-drop, or
whatever else, maybe it's a bit better.  Of course you can use both
for the best of both.

2) Mixmaster is fucking hard to use for 1-way messaging (and all this
new stuff about "use electronic stamps, spam filtering, etc." will go
even *farther* in the "hard to use" side).  mail.havenco.com is easier
to use than your isp, because we won't rename accounts when people buy
providers out, we support SSL cert based relaying so it works on the
road, etc.  The rules of getting apps actually deployed:
 * Provide a tool which supports a compelling application; providing a
 tool which is useless for the application of "being a first-class but
 anonymous participant in online foruns", or which is a *great*
 buggywhip or camel condom, is not the same thing.
 * Use existing infrastructure and standards to make it easier to
 develop, configure, and maintain -- don't re-invent TCP every time,
 don't make users install massive amounts of custom software to do
 something as simple as send and receive electronic mail with their
 client, etc.
 * Incremental improvement and get something out the door quickly,
 incorporate feedback

I think doing interesting new transports inter-remailer
is...interesting, especially from an intellectual and academic
standpoint.  Requiring that users participate as first-class nodes in
p2p systems, dc-nets, etc. is going to raise the bar to being a
remailer user quite a bit, and lower traffic.  Users who can do that
kind of investment can already send unobservable, unlinkable,
untraceable email with little effort.

3) Mixmaster messaging is unreliable.  A professionally maintained
mailbox server is highly reliable; even if transports are unreliable,
it can retransmit transparently.  Abusive apps don't care about
reliability; most socially compelling ones do.  (latency is an issue
too, and without more volume than mixmaster has now, you can't really
get away with low latency)

4) Mixmaster is fairly immune to "editorial" action on the part of
remops; there are too many of them, it's too difficult to do anything
to do them.  A centralized system allows various forms of censorship,
from accounts being shut off due to AUP violations (spamvertised
mailboxes), pressure being placed on the operator, etc.  My AUP is
simple:
 - No spam and no use as spamvertised dropbox
 - No child pornography (due to sealand local regulations)
 - No files > x KB (where x will initially be something small and
   increase) (technically enforced)
 - No attachments or binaries (for now) (technically enforced)
 - Resource limits (per-day message limits, check limits) (technically)
 - No mail bombing or other malicious activity (rate-limiting)
 - dest.blk maintained by server operator on a per-user and systemwide basis
 - AUP violations result on forfeit of funds on deposit and deletion
   of account, but no information turned over (initially you must take
   this on faith/apathy, but later, the management UI will just have a
   "delete account" button and no way to subvert access control and read
   mail without breaking hardware tamper-resistance)

5) For a professional ISP, mixmaster is a bitch to maintain,
vs. cyrus/postfix/etc. which are designed to scale to lots of users,
are easily maintained, etc.

6) Mixmaster has no clear revenue model.  A system which is "sticky",
with people getting mailboxes, and persistent communications with
expectation of support from the server operator, easily allows
charging on a bulk basis.  "micropayments" are crap.  We've already
determined people won't pay large amounts for mixmaster remailers
because it doesn't support high-value applications and doesn't support
any compelling general applications, and collecting small payments is
a hassle.  There are plenty of ways to expand on a professional
offshore secure mail service as well -- think "critical path done well".

7) Having an organization with press/legal/etc. resources supporting a
remailer is more likely to get positive PR spin than a loose
collection of amateur remailer operators.  Also, of course, more risk.

8) Mixmaster as operated now has no love from the network operator
community.  People are abusing "no servers" accounts, for the most
part, to run high-hassle servers on subnets.  If *I* were running a
$20/month dialup ISP, I'd shut people off for running remailers.  It
breaks terms of service, which breaks revenue models for network operators.

9) Vanity domains, group messaging, etc. are not possible with
mixmaster or reply blocks.

10) Mixmaster has been tried for a while, and seems to "work", but
doesn't really do the kind of things which anon.penet.fi did.  I'd
rather give a different approach a try -- deploy something technically
inferior in some ways to mixmaster, but better from a user
perspective, and then armor-plate it later.

(rambling level 3, even more skipable)

I was actually holding off for a while to provide
this service commercially because someone else claimed to be working
on a public-access mail system which would have also been suitable.
However, that system is unlikely to be deployed beyond their insiders,
and is a complex scripted thing which doesn't do the specific task I
want, so I see no reason to delay.

My main concern is minimal support overhead.  If I give away free
accounts, I fear people will use them for spam dropboxes, and we'll be
spending all our time deleting those accounts.  Thus, I really need
something which has a substantial up-front investment to open an
account -- install fee, prepayment, or anti-spam bond;
proof-of-human-work; reputation; etc.  My initial thought is that I'll
give accounts to some well-known people if they want access, and sell
accounts for a high but not insane rate -- USD 200/year for an
offshore mailbox with SSL web/smtp/pop3/imap access seems reasonable.
I will adjust pricing based on demand, resources, etc.  I don't
actually need to make any money off of this; our colo sales are
sufficient, and I can consider it an advertising expense and
entertainment for me, but dealing with spam is not entertainment.

People who care can use this system in a highly privacy protecting
way...encrypt everything with PGP locally, interact entirely via
deaddrop, pay for service anonymously, use a domain maintained by
havenco vs. one they sign over in a registrar, send messages via
remailers as well.  People who just want a "secure" offshore mail
solution can send cleartext mail over SSL interactions with the
server.  The second set, I believe, is far larger, and is doing more
socially beneficial things with their access, and provides cover
traffic for the first set as well.
-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 07:04:00 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:04:00 +1100
Subject: book 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223012212.00a72a10@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Bought a copy of True Names and read it last night. Great story, 
especially considering the date. The first net-fi I read was Neuromancer in 
'84.

Im yet to have the pleasure of either,Does 'Billion dollar brain",by len 
Deighton squeeze into the genre?

 >>R. Stallman's Right to Read short story is sickeningly close to reality. 
I don't care one way or the other if Microsoft patents and creates an OS 
that does DRM but I do care about having it forced down my throat at the 
hands of congressvermin and corporations which, as I see it, is practically 
a certainty.<<

They are patenting our DNA,the freeTM market is a very strict mistress.MS 
and its precious code is now listed as a security risk. The wisdom of 
insecurity by watts,springs to mind."when you can snatch the source code 
from my fingers..."
Dont knock corporations here mike, jamesd will be on your case like a 
latter day roy cohn.Tims freeper hatchet man.

 >>Tim's essay was mostly the familiar stuff, nicely organized and 
presented. The style was almost academic but I notice he did slip one 
"spokesvermin" reference in there<<

Tim says jya should not be seen as representative of this list.Ill take him 
over timmy anyday.Tim May is well past his useby date.The familiar stuff 
deconstructs into lame self mythologizing,dead data and puff pieces on 
cyber-liberty.
Academic in the use of jargon,obscurantist verbiage,pretentious 
drivel,reactionary nonsense?I'm not surprised.

 >>So, Tim, we seem to have raced closer if not past the fork in the road, 
especially since September. Recalling Yogi Berra's "when you come to the 
fork in the road, take it", have we taken it? And if so which path?

Tim May: Deja vu all over again.Verbal contracts not worth the paper 
they're written on,etc...Fork off tim.

 >>The fork analogy may be too simple. The natural path for a vital culture 
is the crypto-anarchist path. The path of increasing state control is the 
natural path for the maintenance and accumulation of power. We all see the 
forces in operation, it's pretty much the topic 24/7. I think the forces 
that bind this mess together increase with distance, the more free the net 
becomes the greater the perceived threat and the desire to reign it in. The 
tighter the controls the greater the desire to break free. On each side 
there are those for whom compromise is unacceptable. In the middle are the 
nearly oblivious masses who can with varying degrees of success be swayed 
one way or the other from time to time. Fear seems to be their main 
motivator. <<

30% of the pop may support the revolution,30% may oppose it,the rest are on 
the fence.The way to leverage relatively small no's through anonymity and 
the web is to use AP to defend and extend the web."the net is closing 
in"and not just on bin laden.What anarchy? Why die for timmy mays casper 
milquetoast version when the real things on the streets.
Alternatively,lie low,stay anon,the state of grace is quad anon.Both will 
be needed.Mays cod anarchism will not.
Fear is the key and the only thing to fear is fear itself."extremely dark 
markets'should not be feared.Viva anarchy!

 >>Rather than making a choice and following any single path we are 
following two concurrent and divergent paths and the energy level is 
increasing. We are headed for a period of escalation. It's definitely a new 
'War on Drugs' scenario, just as dangerous, just as futile and just as 
sustainable. Mike <<

Who's this "we",whiteman? After prohibition 2,vietnam 2,bush 2 its time for 
civil war 2.The coasts march on crawford and liberate the chicago and 
minnesota communes.In the dreamtime of one persyn who's been down the other 
side of the mountain and knows the world can live out the true meaning of 
this creed,"Liberty without socialism is privilege,injustice;Socialism 
without liberty is slavery and brutality." Bakunin:  Sustainable is as 
sustainable does.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 07:15:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:15:10 +1100
Subject: Danny Glover Vs Oliver North
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223020915.00a74960@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: Danny Glover Under Attack by Oliver North
Danny Glover Under Attack by Oliver North et al (english)
by popopo 12:15am Sat Dec 22 '01 (Modified on 3:18am Sat Dec 22 '01)
because he is against the death penalty and that is being used to target 
him in another one of these right-wing smear campaigns the country is so 
fond of right now.
Subject: Fwd: FW: Danny Glover Under Attack
---------- From: Juliette Beck 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:59:21 +0100
From: Mario Profaca 
Reply-To: spynews-owner at yahoogroups.com
To: "[Spy News]" 
Subject: [Spy News] Applied Digital pushes microchip to plant in foreigners for
    tracking

http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost/epaper/editions/today/business_c312779d
0594902e00ee.html

Palm Beach Post
Thursday, December 20, 2001

Applied Digital pushes microchip to plant in foreigners for tracking

By Deborah Circelli, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

   PALM BEACH -- Today's security measures don't work very well, says
Richard Sullivan, pointing to the Sept. 11 terror attacks on New York and
Washington.

   He's says he's got a better idea: a microchip instead of a green card.
Foreigners who pass through customs or immigration could be injected with
the chip, allowing officials to monitor their activities better and keep
terrorists out.

   "Man today is more than ever converging with technology," said
Sullivan, who is CEO of the Palm Beach-based tech company Applied Digital
Solutions (Nasdaq: ADSX, 45 cents). "I think the positives overwhelmingly
overcome any small negatives. The government is more prepared, for the
overall benefit of our citizens, to advocate some of these changes."

   Sullivan's company has high hopes for the implantable technology, which
it unveiled Wednesday. Until now, the microchips -- called VeriChips --
have been used for tracking and identifying animals.

   Applied Digital has had a patent for such devices since 1999. The new
technology would make Applied Digital the first company in the nation to
sell microchips designed to be implanted in human beings.

   But privacy groups reacted with outrage Wednesday to Sullivan's idea
for monitoring foreigners. America is not that desperate, one group said,
citing a violation of "bodily integrity."

   "That is so unconstitutional," said Randall Marshall, legal director
for the Miami chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. "I can't
imagine this surviving a constitutional challenge. It just simply goes way
too far outside the realm of what we believe in as a society."

   Sullivan said the product will be marketed in January in South America
while the company seeks approval in the United States from the Food and
Drug Administration. Approval is expected in 18 months.

   A New Jersey surgeon who serves on the board of Owings, Md.-based
Medical Advisory Systems, which is about to combine with a subsidiary of
Applied Digital, injected himself with two of the VeriChips five days
after the terror attacks.

   Richard Seelig inserted the chips in his forearm and hip as part of the
clinical process Applied Digital will have to conduct to receive FDA
approval, Sullivan said. Seelig, 55, referred all questions Wednesday to
Sullivan but told the Los Angeles Times he felt compelled to have a secure
form of identification after Sept. 11.

   "I was so compelled by what had happened," Seelig told the Times. "One
of the potential applications suddenly jumped out -- the ability to have a
secure form of identification -- and I felt I had to take the next step."

   The chips are about the size of a grain of rice and contain an
identification number or other data, such as medical information, and a
person's address and phone number.

   The chips have no internal power source. Their data can't be read
without a scanner close at hand. The next generation of body chips -- one
that transmits signals from a distance -- is several years away.

   The chip is the same as the one Applied Digital's subsidiary uses in
more than 1 million animals, but the VeriChip can be used in humans with a
pacemaker, artificial heart valves or orthopedic knee devices. If a
patient needs help, a hospital can use a scanner to obtain information.

   In five years, Sullivan said he can see the chips being used in
children, the elderly, prisoners, and by employers at facilities such as
airports and nuclear plants. Society in general could use them instead of
ATM or credit cards, he said.

   But Evan Hendricks, editor and publisher of Privacy Times, a
Washington, D.C.-based newsletter, said it's one thing for an individual
to choose to implant the device for medical purposes, but it's crossing
the line when parents start putting them in their children or employers
require them for employment.

   "This has been science fiction for most of our adult life, but now we
see the technology allows it," Hendricks said. "The problem is that it is
happening in a vacuum where there are not adequate privacy laws."

/Los Angeles Times contributed to this story./

mailto:deborah_circelli at pbpost.com


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From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 07:46:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:46:08 +1100
Subject: Steal This Essay 1: Content Is a Pure Public Good, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223023307.00a72580@pop.useoz.com>


Given a clone your own kit for an early xmas pressy Im splicing a 
rotweiller and a Shoat.Ill keep you posted.

http://www.netsertion.com/  tech ripping you off? Just add more 
tech."Property is theft"Proudon.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 07:55:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:55:52 +1100
Subject: More Jailed Punks 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223025358.00a73eb0@pop.useoz.com>


       A - I N F O S  N E W S  S E R V I C E
             http://www.ainfos.ca/
  ________________________________________________

3 punks from Warsaw were sentenced yesterday by Warsaw court to 3,5 years of
prison for alleged assault and robbery of 3 nazi skinheads. Fourth accused
were cleared of charges and remains free. Verdict will be appealed.
Judge gave show of total ignorance and hostility against punks, talking
about their style of dressing etc.
Sentence is very high as none of the accused were previously sentenced and
they had clear criminal record. It was clear attempt to punish them for what
they are.
soja, ABC Bialystok
-- 
Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie!

[ http://oferty.onet.pl ]




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 07:59:40 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:59:40 +1100
Subject: Eurorepression worst since you know when.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223025752.00a73c30@pop.useoz.com>


In Britain we can feel proud that we are leading the way in the race to the
bottom of the civil liberties barrel. On Monday the Anti-Terrorism, Crime
and Security Act became law - two days later eight people became the lucky
winners in the 'we've decided you're a terrorist so were locking you up
without trial' Christmas draw.

This hotch-potch of a bill includes not just internment (see SchNEWS 331),
but a whole host of civil liberty busting BLAH. As Raif Smyth from the
Coalition Against the Terror Act said "The truth is, the mandarins at the
Home Office have used the Bill as a Trojan horse to get into law all the
dodgy proposals at the bottom of their filing cabinets." In Europe, heads
of state are pushing ahead with an "anti-terrorism roadmap" with plans to
add two new databases on the Schengen Information System (SIS - see SchNEWS
312). SIS already holds files on nearly one and a half million people. One
of the new databases would cover public order and protests and lead to,
"Barring potentially dangerous persons from participating in certain
events." Such as anti capitalist protests outside international summits by
any chance? "Targetted" suspects would be tagged with an "alert" on the SIS
computer, barring them from entering the country where a protest or event
was taking place.

In the Czech Republic, a new law permits the prosecution of people
expressing sympathy for the attacks on New York, or even of those
sympathising with the sympathisers! Already one Czech journalist, Tomas
Pecina, a reporter for the Prague-based investigative journal Britske
Listy, has been arrested and charged for criticising the use of the law, on
the grounds that this makes him, too, a supporter of terrorism. Meanwhile
in Turkey, that well known human rights haven, just publishing a book by
Noam Chomsky could land Fatih Tas with a fine or spell in prison, under the
country's anti-terrorism laws. Chomsky apparently overstepped the mark when
he wrote in 'US Interventions': "the Kurds have been oppressed throughout
history... but that changed (in 1984) tens of thousands of people were
killed, two or three million had to migrate, 3,500 villages were
destroyed... an intense ethnic clean-up." So while it's ok for the Turkish
state to carry out attacking the Kurds, it's terrorism and "separatist
propaganda" to talk about it.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 08:01:38 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 03:01:38 +1100
Subject: America Psycho
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223030022.00a78dd0@pop.useoz.com>


COURT-KNAPPING In America, more than 1,200 people have so far been held in 
connection with the attacks on September 11th - most because of the colour 
of their skin. The majority of those arrested have nothing to do with 
terrorism, but have been jailed for minor visa violations that normally 
would be ignored. Take Ali Al-Maqtari, a Yemeni immigrant who spent eight 
weeks in jail. Al-Maqtari told the Senate Judiciary Committee about being 
interrogated for 12 hours, lied to by the FBI, accused of beating his wife, 
then locked up unable to contact his wife or solicitors. All because his 
wife wore a head scarf to a recruiting centre when she enlisted in the 
Army, spoke in a foreign language (French), and because soldiers found box 
cutters and New York City postcards in their car. Or what about Samir 
Khalaf, a Palestinian who worked at a gas station in Connecticut. He went 
to the hospital with chest pains on Sept. 12. People thought he was acting 
suspicious. They called the police, who called the FBI. After his emergency 
operation, the Feds took him - against doctors' advice - to jail. There he 
remained, charged with failure to get a work permit. However, he was in the 
country legally and was quickly cleared of terrorism suspicion and an 
immigration judge ruled at the beginning of October that he could go home. 
But then the Immigration and Naturalization Service wouldn't let him go 
until November. Michael Boyle, solicitor for Al-Maqtari, told the US Senate 
meeting discussing the Department of Justice actions that these aren't 
isolated incidents, but are "part of a pattern of excessive detention and 
disrespect for the rights of non-citizens." The war on terrorism has become 
a war on people - if you're the wrong colour, have the wrong views, or are 
merely in the wrong place at the wrong time, then you better watch out 
because you could potentially be the next terrorist. * Coalition Against 
the Terrorism Act c/o Haldane Society, Conway Hall, 25 Red Lion Square, 
London WC1R 4RL Tel: 0845 458 2966 http://go.to/ta2000 * Read full story of 
America's detainees on www.alternet.org




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 08:09:35 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 03:09:35 +1100
Subject: Anarchists and old lace.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223030741.00a7aeb0@pop.useoz.com>


TRANSPORT DREAMING
I don't want to give Mr. Bob Annells, the Executive Chairman of Connex,
nightmares, but his statement on the front page of the Age (Dec 11) that
transport operators in Melbourne face entrenched cultural factors that
underpin fare evasion that include everyone from anarchists to little old
ladies. "We have everything from the anarchists who believe they are
bringing down the capitalist system by riding for free, to the little old
ladies, who say they are making a social protest about privitisation and the
removal of tram conductors" , is much closer to the mark, than he realises.
Some of the most persistent critics of the privitisation of public
transport, are little old ladies, who are part of Melbourne's anarchist
community. What gives them that fire in the belly that sustains their
campaigns against corporations like Connex, is their disgust at the type of
society Australia has become.
They are sick and tired of listening to trans-national corporations that pay
minimal tax call on the public, to subsidise their losses, while they're
happy to transfer their profits to their head offices overseas. They're
sick and tired of seeing workers taking the brunt of the corporate cost
cutting exercises and commuters being treated as criminals. They're sick
and tired of seeing the run down of an essential public service, the public
transport system, but most importantly of all, they are sick and tired of
seeing lame duck governments that theoretically represent the people
representing the interests of the Corporate Sector.
If Mr. Annells is so concerned about the lack of Connex's ability to make a
profit, because of the entrenched cultural factors surrounding fare evasion
in Melbourne, why doesn't he do all of us a favour and give the half of
Melbourne's train network that Connex runs, back to the State government.
If the State government is serious about representing the interests of the
people of Victoria, not the Corporate Sector, why don't they all do
Victorian's a favour and make public transport free in this State? The
social, cultural, economic and environmental benefits of such an audacious
move on the part of the State government, would far outweigh the cost to the
State. Just in case the Peter Batchelors of the world throw up their hands
in horror and say, "the State government doesn't have the money for such a
move." The money can be found by removing corporate subsides and by placing
a levy on every motor vehicle and every ratable property in the State. Any
short term political resistance to such a move, would be far outweighed by
the long-term benefits to the Victorian community.
And then free ISPs please,TIA.proffr1.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 08:13:22 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 03:13:22 +1100
Subject: Anarchist Q+A.Are anarcho-capitalists part of the anarchist
  movement?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223031044.00a79230@pop.useoz.com>


ANARCHIST QUESTION AND ANSWER
Q. Are anarcho-capitalists part of the anarchist movement?
A. Anarcho-capitalism, a philosophy taken up by the Libertarian wing of the
New Right in the United States, has nothing to do with anarchism.
Capitalist societies do not need the State to survive, but they do need
privatised defence forces to survive. When you have one group of people
amassing wealth (anarcho-capitalists) and another group working to amass
that wealth for them, you have all the ingredients that are needed to create
private armies. These armies are needed to protect the assets of those
people who use other people's labor to amass their wealth.
The twentieth century reformist state evolved as a direct consequence of the
rising levels of violence that were occurring between those who produced
wealth and those who amassed it. A limited state apparatus, the type that
anarcho-capitalists need to survive, has limited functions, it protects
those with power and wealth and does not interfere when those who amass
wealth exploits those who make wealth for them.
The reformist state has evolved to protect those with power and wealth from
violence by limiting their ability (not removing their ability) to exploit
those who make wealth for them. Anarchism cannot exist without people
having both the power to determine their own affairs, as well as having
access to the common wealth. You can make all the decisions you like, but
if you don't have access to the resources to make those decisions a reality,
having the power to make decisions doesn't mean much.
Anarcho-capitalists believe in and accept inequalities in wealth. They want
to create a society where they can amass all the wealth they like, without
having to worry about a state apparatus, setting limits on the methods they
use to acquire that wealth. They want to replace the reformist state with
private armies that they control, that's why they want to break the power of
the centralized State. They have no interest in creating societies that
hold wealth in common and that allow the people involved in a decision to
make that decision.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 08:21:30 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 03:21:30 +1100
Subject: May day hirstory.The anarchist thread.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223031833.00a7ac30@pop.useoz.com>


The idea of International May Day was
conceived in the United States in 1884 at a conference of the Federated
Trades and Labour Unions of the United States and Canada. The conference
launched an intensive 8 hour day campaign, which was to culminate in
wide-spread struggles on the 1st May 1886. The anarchist labour agitators
in Chicago in 1886 who came out in support of the workers, who were killed
at Mc Cormacks as a result of this campaign, were arrested and five were
hung on trumped up murder charges. All were pardoned a decade after their
executions.
The International Labour Congress, which was held in Paris on the 14th of
July 1889, decided to make the 1st of May 1890, "a day of international
demonstration". The Melbourne Anarchist Club - Australia's first anarchist
organisation, was formed on the 1st of May 1886. Members of the Melbourne
Anarchist Club held May Day observations in 1887 and 1888, the only people
in Australia to do so. Victoria held its first official May Day celebration
on the 1st of May 1890 at an indoor meeting. The first public celebration
of May Day in Melbourne was held at the Yarra Bank on the 1st of May 1892
and the meeting was chaired by the Melbourne Anarchist Chummy Fleming.
While the Melbourne May Day Committee continues to celebrate May Day in
Melbourne with a demonstration on the 1st Sunday after May Day, Melbourne's
Anarchists have continued to celebrate May Day on the 1st of May. In 2001,
many trade unions based in Melbourne, also celebrated May Day on the 1st of
May.Your humble corespondent is under a bond to be of good behavior, for 
nearly
one year, for offences against property of Mc Donalds and BHP Billiton done on
that day. It was worth it.Long live Anarchy.




From chunpai at public.glptt.gx.cn  Sat Dec 22 11:48:23 2001
From: chunpai at public.glptt.gx.cn (chunpai at public.glptt.gx.cn)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 03:48:23 +0800
Subject: Massage Shoes and Sport Shoes
Message-ID: <200112221951.fBMJopC6020838@ak47.algebra.com>

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From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Sat Dec 22 19:12:02 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 04:12:02 +0100
Subject: More on remailers
Message-ID: <471b0d17ef54dcb7b9cb12f40bf7a635@mix.winterorbit.com>


Ryan Lackey writes:
>    You need to make it easy to join the set (use standard protocols,
>    no client software, and ideally make it require no user knowledge
>    of the deeper darker purpose behind it all), and make it worthwhile to
>    join the set (ideally a non-security non-messaging benefit, like
>    "cool porn" or whatever)

What do you mean, "no client software"?  How do you propose to get secure
anonymous mail without client software?

>    2) 2-way communication is inherently much harder to secure, but
>    is socially beneficial.  Without socially beneficial uses, it's
>    going to be a long and unpleasant battle, as it will be very hard
>    to attract users.  Regulation is NOT the reason PR matters;
>    perception by users is.

A form of 2-way communication is possible already; this exchange is an
example.  Private (one to one) 2-way anonymous communication is harder,
but in many cases it will be practical to use a group as a mediator.
See the various PGP-encrypted posts on sci.crypt to Beale Screamer,
who broke a Microsoft digital licensing scheme.

Exitence of socially beneficial uses is good for political reasons and
perhaps for getting people to run remailers, but has little impact on ease
of attracting users.  Users will be attracted for their own purposes,
whether they are socially beneficial or not.  Harrassment or anonymous
love letters may not be socially beneficial but they are part of what
people want to use remailers for.  You seem to be implying that people
won't want to use remailers for some good purpose just because they have
a bad rep.  Do many people really think that way?

>    3) "Sending anonymous mail" is *not* a compelling end-user
>    application on a wide scale;	nowhere	near "have all the music you
>    want available for free", "have arbitrary prohibited pornography"
>    or "pay people anonymously". 

No, but "communicating anonymously" is a *very* important addition to
those other compelling applications you list.  As the RIAA and governments
crack down, people will want a way for people to trade music or porn
without putting their IPs out on the net.  Of course, email is not the
appropriate transport for these applications.  Maybe the conclusion should
be that anonymous email should be seen as a special case of anonymous
communications.  Don't solve anonymous email, solve anonymous comm.

A recent message on coderpunks proposed an alternative way to do
anonymous mail: use pipenet as a transport for ordinary SMTP email.
It was pointed out that timing information could link up the inward and
outward connection in pipenet (a problem for any low-latency, transient
connection).  This could be addressed in part by maintaining several
always-on, constant-traffic dummy channels into the pipenet.

>    4) Latency must be low.  Anonymous (or at least private) online
>    chat is more interesting to
>    users than email.  Feds own EFnet servers with regularity; people
>    discuss plenty of interesting things on IRC, vs. most email.  But,
>    anonymous or even encrypted chat systems are a good deal more
>    complex than mail.  Also, low latency is good for messaging.
>    Normal mail is "near realtime"; mixmaster is anything but.  (most
>    of the people who are likely to be users of anonymity are more
>    comfortable with chat than email anyway.

In fact, many remailer users do preferentially choose low-latency
remailers (partially because there tends to be a correlation between low
latency and high reliability).  And it makes online exchanges easier.
Our various "Nomen Nescio" commentators are going through a remailer with
only 5 minute latency.

The problem is that low latency, low enough for chat, file exchange,
web browsing etc. introduces many new technical challenges in terms of
preserving anonymity.  Still it is so much more useful that it would seem
that working on solving those problems would be a better use of effort
than doing anonymous email better.  And as noted above, a remailing
system might result for free.

> (indeed, "develop e-cash to use as postage for remailers" is kind of
> putting the cart before the horse; "develop remailers to use to
> transport intermediate results of electronic cash operations" is the
> proper causality, I think)

Again, true with the proviso that it is not anonymous email you want,
but a general form of anonymous connectivity.




From ryan at havenco.com  Sun Dec 23 00:31:43 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 08:31:43 +0000
Subject: More on remailers
Message-ID: <20011223083143.GA26096@atreides.havenco.com>


> What do you mean, "no client software"?  How do you propose to get
> secure anonymous mail without client software?

I'm arguing that with less anonymity than the current mixmaster
network, but with greater ease of use, you could have superior
experiences.  Specifically using standard MUAs, like MS Outlook, which
include SMTP-TLS and IMAP-SSL; operate as a normal user, with the
normal MS-default MUA, connecting to a remotely maintained mailserver
which filters attachments, keeps no logs, and is optionally
implemented in tamper-resistant hardware with published code.  Located
in a jurisdiction and a network environment where, provided an AUP is
complied with, subpoenas or denial of service are at least as unlikely
as shutdown of the aggregate of most major mixmaster remailer nodes today.

"Click here for an offshore anonymous mailbox" is a lot easier than
reading even a simple description of mixmaster remailer theory.

Sheep use it in unencrypted-message, unencrypted-mailbox,
pseudonymous, linkable, communicate-via-SSL,
download-on-message-receipt mode.  Wolves can operate in a way which
is indistinguishable to casual observation, but with encrypted message
contents, and possibly with redirection via reply-blocks through
remailers, or remailed to an address through the remailer network
normally, or encrypted and deposited to a web server which also
contains mailing list archives in SSL, or to a usenet group with wide 
distribution.

I want something *I* would use, ultimately.  I both trust myself not
to violate my own privacy, and am lazy on a day to day basis.

> 2-way communications

Oh, certainly group-mediated communication is interesting -- and the
Beale Screamer incident was one of the few highly worthwhile uses of
remailers I've seen since running one.

I'm concerned that if remailers have only a bad rep, it will be easier
to criminalize their operation, and they will be persecuted more by
network administrators (rather than operated, or at least benignly
ignored)

IRC servers are already prohibited on various colo/leased circuits,
even though they're legal, due to technical and social issues..  Same
with spam.

Users won't be drawn to use technology which has a reputation of being
used primarily for harrassment; if sending an anonymous message to
someone is more likely to have it ignored or otherwise not taken
seriously than sending a non-anonymous message.  Already (from reading
abuse at remailer.havenco.com) I've seen that a lot of abuse at network
addresses refuse to act based on messages sent via anonymous
remailers.  If they were instead sent through a pseudonymous system
with some accountability/linkability/cheap-way-to-do-reputation, or
indistinguishable from non-remailer mail (by hosting domains and
sending under that domain), or a 2-way system where the abuse desk
could contact the user making a complaint and interact, they'd be
taken more seriously.

I'd like anonymous email to accomplish something more than just
sending messages anonymously to one another as today; I'd like it to
serve as an example of why cryptography, anonymization, and other
techniques are things which should be widely supported.  For that to
happen, someone needs to be able to communicate why it should be used
in a convincing way to reporters, show them how to use it, and then
convince the mass-market that participating in some way is something
they should be doing.  "If you support freedom of speech, send
anonymous email through mixmaster remailers" is less likely to work
than "if you support freedom of speech, make sure your ISP supports
"secure (ssl) mail" and click the "use SSL" option in your copy of 
MS Outlook.  SSL for http has done a good thing by getting people to
associate crypto and (financial) privacy and security; pushing SSL
email could do the same thing for privacy.

Recent hassle over 802.11b encryption, open networks, etc. is perhaps
an inspiring sign -- once it became widely reported (due initially to
pete shipley coming up with a cute name for something he was doing, I
think), it became "the cool thing" to use encryption on your 802.11b
network; the WEP break notwithstanding, people went from using no
crypto to lame-but-better-than-nothing crypto in larger numbers per
unit time than I've seen before.

I don't really care about privacy for random stupid people as an end
in itself, but I need the cover traffic.  Rather than making people
smarter, I'd rather make the crypto stupider, or at least easier to
use poorly.

(when ecash happens, this will be even more important, but luckily
paying people anonymously and doing unobservable finance is a
compelling end-user application, given a good ui)

> [email vs. communicating anonymously]

Oh, I certainly agree on this -- I'd love to see a great p2p system
which protected privacy while moving *large* files (upper bound, say
1GB DivX movies).  Trading pr0n warez DivX is a compelling end-user
app.  Yet, for these, latency *is not* as serious a concern as human
interaction.  If I were designing the ultimate p2p system, I'd do:

[note: this is a 6 paragraph digression from the topic at hand]

* Small fast 2-way anonymous interactive network for sending control
information...maybe the lower bound is being able to do 100bps
constant-rate to the cloud of actual information, constantly send
dummy traffic.

* Searches which operate remotely, so you don't need to download index
info from every server, just results

* High-bandwidth, async, high-latency transport for sending files.
Maybe multicast, using a multicast transport.  I can do VSAT in US/EU
for something like USD 3k/month to broadcast 34Mbps...you could
broadcast a stream of random encrypted data and then distribute keys 
separately after the file is distributed widely.  (it's called
"Usenet", and there are a bunch of VSAT-based usenet delivery
services, a friend of mine used to run one).  Just auto-couriering
stuff onto rooted servers and publishing the URL over the 2-way
anonymous network is probably fine, if the end-user's anonymity is not 
required.

* The ability to do something like say "I want all kiddie porn
featuring anal penetration of older than 3 but younger than 6, wearing
red t-shirts" and have these files appear over the next 6 months -- 
"subscribe" to a search, vs. doing a search repeatedly.  (Ideally
you'd request files in a way where you offer ecash for them...if I
want a CD, I might be willing to pay enough to make it worthwhile for
someone to purchase, encode, and upload it, then recursive auctions
and all that...)

(all of these concepts have been discussed or used in various p2p
systems...I only mention them as a way to avoid the necessity for a
low-latency, high-bandwidth, high-anonymity channel for every single
user of a file sharing system)

[end digression]

I think "email", which I take to mean "15 second to 5 day latency,
under 40KB, armored text unidirectional messaging with rfc822 headers
prepended, no return receipts or delivery confirmation, best effort,
store and forward, delivery-time-uncertain" is a pretty general
technology.  Unless you're concerned about reliable delivery and
receipts, or substantially deviating from anonymous-mix-email's
latency/bandwidth regime, I don't see much point in doing anything but
email.  MTAs don't suck that much these days -- postfix is a lot
better at what it does, specifically, than any "cypherpunk" I've ever seen.

Building a tolerable p2p system which used *just* mixmaster and rooted
cablemodem-hosted boxes would be entirely possible, but pretty boring.

Pipenet is very interesting; I'd certainly run few 10Mbps nodes for
experimental value.   But it would be hard to do cost-recovery on a
pipenet except for small (control?) data, or multicast.  Until the
risks of being identified as an end-user in the warez game are
increased to criminal, and the profusion of easily-routed throwaway
servers dries up (hah), there won't be a way to charge enough to make
it worthwhile for unicast media object transport.  Realtime chat,
though, would be a killer app for pipenet -- fairly multicast, low
bitrate, 512Kbps DSL users could be first-class nodes, "legally
compelling" (it's user to user human speech, so courts are less likely
to be able to categorically hate on it enough to shut down nodes),
lots of users (I'm sure you could get 100k users for the new cool kids
IRC replacement, with end to end security, on the fly group creation,
less key management/channel management issues than irc, group chat,
good clients, ease of installation, etc. with no trouble, and maybe a
few million users over time.  Add some bots, which can migrate, and it
starts to be really interesting.)

I'd always assumed all nodes on a pipenet were first-class; if you're
talking about a pipenet with leaves, then yeah, you'd want a
constant-bitrate channel in.

Raph was disliking gale's lack of anonymity; anonymous realtime
human-human and group messaging is probably more reasonable than I
thought at the time.

The unimplemented but academically-interesting alternate mixes
proposed would maybe be just as good as a pipenet; ideally you'd be
deploying all of these in a framework which allowed different
transports, but provided common keying, addressing, and external API.

Maybe I've contradicted my earlier argument against interesting new
p2p software -- I think for "bread and butter" secure *email* you
might as well use a decent SSL mail server with optional ubobservable
I/O instead of mixmaster, but for something closer to chat, the new 
stuff might be interesting.  Mixmaster is in the middle ground between 
the two; it should go to one side of the road or the other.

> [ecash needing something other than mail as transport]

If you're doing an ecash system which has >8KB/message and more than,
say, 5 exchanges per transaction, you're doing something wrong.  And
the aforementioned latency/anonymity slider is just as easy to shift
on an SMTP based system as on any other protocol as transport.  You
need protocol-specific cryptographic receipts as part of the protocol
anyway (which various values serve as), so really you could just use
[encrypted-payload] UDP [multicast], but whatever.

I think ecash will ultimately have many transports, but one of them
should almost certainly be PGP-encrypted email which looks exactly
like any other PGP-encrypted message, back and forth with an ecash
server attached directly to a remailer, where every message fits
within the remailer standard mail sizing.

The pipenet/chatnet solution would probably be suitable for ecash
protocol communications as well.

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Dec 23 06:41:02 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 08:41:02 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Ford vs. 2600 Judge Upholds Right To Link
Message-ID: <3C25ECFE.C5F466D@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/yro/01/12/23/1342231.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Dec 23 02:05:17 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:05:17 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [>Htech] A gift for language (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:11:10 -0500
From: Brian Atkins 
Reply-To: transhumantech at yahoogroups.com
To: "transhumantech at yahoogroups.com" 
Subject: [>Htech] A gift for language

You can use winzip to determine what language or even what author a
small piece of text is from:

http://pil.phys.uniroma1.it/~loreto/press.html

(I got this from new scientist dead tree, but this .ps file is all I
can find quickly)
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/

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From casions at aol.com  Sun Dec 23 11:24:06 2001
From: casions at aol.com (casions at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:24:06
Subject: Five Roses Casino!        
Message-ID: <200112231445.IAA16652@tata.tata.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From tcmay at got.net  Sun Dec 23 11:55:21 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:55:21 -0800
Subject: Start Ups, Crypto Companies, and Commercialization
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011222155725.0380c230@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sunday, December 23, 2001, at 01:29 AM, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 02:19 PM 12/22/2001 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>> Yes. The best work has always been done by one or two people at a time.
>> This applies to software as well.  (Not so much to chips anymore,
>> at least not for the past 20 years. Another topic.)
>
>> A person with the dedication and skill of a Stallman could
>> probably implement digital cash without having the Herman Miller 
>> chairs,
>> the hot tub up on the roof of the office building, the staff of 
>> marketdroids, and the espresso machines.
>>
>> There's some hope.
>
> Espresso is important, basic machines are cheap, and the real decision
> is whether walking down to Starbucks to avoid making it yourself
> is more an interruption to your concentration or an opportunity
> to spend time in the real world and to check out the Mondex smartcard 
> machine
> that Starbucks gave up on using :-)

I was using that as a stand-in, a place holder for the recent trend for 
start-up companies to spend lavishly on corporate digs.

Being an old-timer, I like to say: In my day, we had to walk five miles 
through the snow to get a cup of mud from the vending machine. Actually, 
in my day at Intel we were lucky to have patty melts for lunch, as most 
of us ate out of vending machines (burritos, stale sandwiches, cottage 
cheese) or out of the vending vans ("roach coaches") which pulled up 
outside to feed the engineers and operators.

Things have changed, I gather.

I've got nothing against companies having nice facilitites, but perhaps 
the lavish cafeterias, rooftop jacuzzis, and other frivolities give the 
workers the impression that money is flowing freely (as it is...for a 
while). I'd rather see a company starting on a shoestring, with surplus 
desks from Repo Depot, with crowded offices, and with no money wasted on 
frivolities. Especially if I'm an investor!

Sure, it'll cause some of the folks to go instead to Oracle, where the 
cafeterias are opulent. A good thing that those who want opulence go to 
such places!

(I faced a similar choice in 1974: some of the places I was considering 
were known for their lavish expense accounts, their nice offices. Other 
places were more spartan (that's a good word to think about). I chose 
one of the spartan places, Intel. A lot of those other companies I could 
have gone to went nowhere.)

This applies to marketdroids as well. Startup companies get larded-up 
with marketing departments when there is little to market. The huges 
staffs of some of the companies we all know about is an example. (Just 
as bad: the hiring of ex-government officials, regulators, etc. But I 
digress.)

>
> But the easy part of doing digital cash is the software,
> and it doesn't take years of Stallman-level or Chaum-level or
> Ian-or-Ben-or-Lucky-level wizardry to produce it, though it's
> really helpful to have their insights into what didn't work
> and what pieces were useful for consumer-quality realizability.
>
> Lots of people can turn the algorithms into reliable code;
> lots of people can build user interfaces, though you if you want
> it to run on the latest Microsoft GUI API environments and
> all Mac environments from 6.5 through 10.1.2Coca you'll need a few
> extra helpers to add the ugly details.  (*I* could even do the 
> programming,
> though you'd get a basic web forms interface and a text interface
> that looks suspiciously like "throw stone knife at dwarf", "404 Knife 
> Not Found",
> with none of that modern Javascruft or "ncurses" aesthetics in it :-)

I agree and disagree. I agree that the core crypto is sort of 
established. However, how many examples of it do we see? Few. How many 
of the programmers here on this list (there must be a few dozen who call 
themselves programmers, professionally) have ever implemented anything 
remotely similar to digital cash?

(I don't call myself a programmer, but I fool around. The closest I have 
come to the above is when about 10 years ago I wrote a simple RSA 
implementation in Mathematica, just to make sure I had all the "Euler 
totient function" kind of crapola down straight.)
>
> The hard part is getting people to take the stuff.
> 30 years of Kernighan, Ritchie, and Thompson, 20 years of Stallman and 
> Gilmore,
> 15 years of X and Gosling, and 10 years of PGP & Linux has gotten us 
> partway to
> World Domination in technical areas, often by getting the good parts 
> stolen badly
> by the bigger commercial interests, but money's harder to change;

PayPal took off pretty fast. So did VISA and MasterCard in their day. I 
think and hope someone will cut through all of the b.s. and do something 
that takes off.

As I mentioned a few days ago, one of the reasons we wanted to have a 
session on "implementing digital money"  was to brainstorm these issues. 
Maybe we should try again.

By the way, if "lots of people can turn the algorithm into reliable 
code," where _are_ the implementations? I see bits and pieces.



> Black & Scholes and Fair & Isaac and Milken and Visa/MC/AX and Schwab 
> and
> later E-Trade and just possibly PayPal have changed things,
> but Mondex didn't happen, and Micropayments didn't happen,
> and in spite of all of Hettinga's enthusiam and Chaum's business acumen,
> anonymous digital bearer cash hasn't successfully rocked the world.
> It not only takes technical skills to ship working stuff,
> it takes business skills to find a market where it works and
> promote it enough that enough people are using it that
> some level of anonymity can actually happen.

I don't think things happen because of "evangelists." Evangelists didn't 
give us the transistor, the IC, the microprocessor, the early personal 
computers, or even the Mac (where Apple was famous for hiring 
"evangelists," e.g., Guy Kawasaki).

Discussing this would require a longer article here than I'm interested 
in writing. To be sure, advertising BankAmericard (VISA) and other 
credit cards was and is a big business. People have to know a technology 
exists and then want to use it.

Evangelizing digital cash, when no real digital cash implementation 
exists, is getting things backwards.

> Lucky and the Mark Twain Bank had the technology, and had the
> service working in the abstract, aside from the minor problem that
> there was nothing to buy except pictures of Cypherella
> before they stopped allowing that, though perhaps if they'd
> been a bit later to market and jumped into E-Bay when PayPal did
> they could have pulled it off (or perhaps not - that's a market
> where reputations have a really high value, and you'd have to
> structure an escrow market around your digicash that would
> undo most of the anonymity even if the digicash provided it.)

Lucky can tell us what the real level of technology was. My impression 
is that it was a cleaned-up version of Chaum's earlier code (or the code 
of his early 90s programmers, that is) and did "uninteresting" things.

And since it wasn't payee-untraceable, interesting uses for trading 
banned materials were not possible. (My recollection, though I could be 
wrong, was that Mark Twain Bank also had the usual ISP-like junk about 
acceptable uses and how accounts could be cancelled for "inappropriate 
uses.")

A lot of these applications are just "toy uses." Not even the True 
Believers, most of us, would waste our time and money opening a Mark 
Twain Bank account so we could flash our account cards, or whatever, at 
local parties and meetings. I don't know of anyone, besides Lucky, who 
ever used the system.

It is true, and we've talked about it many times, that most people don't 
care about anonymity and untraceability. They don't care that their 
"Fast Pass" turnpike passes can (and sometimes are) be used to track 
their movements, to find out when they were on the New Jersey Turnpike 
and which exit they got off at. 99.9984% of them figure no one will 
bother to check. So the market for Chaumian ecash for car passes never 
materialized.

A big part of the problem is the lack of evolutionary learning. This is 
a problem with our patent system, especially for software. A number of 
years ago I wrote an article about how patents for hardware work because 
the produced good "meters" the patent: no one cared what uses were made 
of the microprocessor because every sale was a sale, thus paying for all 
of the various R&D and patents and so for the chip companies. With 
software (*), there is much concern about what uses are made. Because of 
replicability of the product.

(* I don't mean a software product like Microsoft Office. It is true 
that no one cares what use is made of a copy of Office, provided it was 
legitimately bought. I mean software like "RSA," where sale of a general 
license has to be very carefully planned.)

Because Chaum wished to make money (not an ignoble goal), he limited 
access to the core of his system. (Whatever you want to call it, the 
algorithms, the implementations, the ability of others to build 
products, etc.) There were a series of "future by design" projects, but 
little evolutionary learning. (Contrast to the aircraft or chip 
businesses, where hundreds of companies failed, planes crashed, new 
designs were tried, patents were cross-licensed or bought, companies 
rose and fell, products proliferated...)

It's not easy to build a company around an algorithm. RSA succeeded, but 
it faced years of shoestring operation troubles (I visited their crowded 
offices in Redwood Shores, circa 1990-1). And it had arguably the most 
important patent portfolio of all. (Levy's "Crypto" details the history, 
and the almost out of business experiences.)

I see way too many Cypherpunks jabbering about "raising money." Most 
don't.

It's time for a return to the older models.
>

> Doug and the Austin Cypherpunks Credit Union folks had the technical 
> skills,
> and the interesting hook that in the US, Credit Unions have
> much less regulation than Real Banks, but figuring out how to make money
> from such an activity was tough, and unlike MTB, they decided not
> to launch a business they didn't know how to make money with :-)

Good for them. Both later made some money from other projects.
>

> Getting the real thing working requires real marketing skills

See above. I doubt a marketing group makes a hill of beans' worth of 
difference.


> and being in the right place at the right time; occasionally

True enough.

> you can hit it off, like the kid who wrote WinAmp and was pressured
> by his parents into making it Shareware and not just freeware,
> or the Hotmail folks causing the free-web-based-email wave
> (and catalyzing many of the appallingly stupid Dot-Com Business Plans.)

We saw a lot of appallingly-stupid Cypherpunks Business Plans, too.

"And then at this point the world adopts the use of Bearer Bucks (TM) 
and we get 2% of every transaction!"
>

> Perhaps one advantage of the dot-com crash is that people starting
> businesses today are much more likely to do the solid business planning
> and the initial technical decisions before they get enough
> funding to leave the garage and hire the 200 programmers that
> it takes to prevent any real work from being done while you're
> having meetings to coordinate development of the hot-tub-scheduling 
> website.

Yep. Premature commercialization, mythical man-month, burn rates, and 
all that.

>
> But if you're not going to use the marketdroids, you have to find
> some really solid alternative to get the stuff widely used.

I'll say it again: the best commercialization is done for stolen 
products.

(Or, to head off frivolous charges that I am libeling Sun or Cisco, 
below, products which were basically already developed and faced a ready 
market.)

The Stanford University Network (SUN) machines were largely ready to go 
when the founders of Sun (gee, where'd they get that name?) sought 
permission (and investment) from Stanford to commercialize them. Ditto 
for Len and Sandy's work at Stanford on routers. This is how Sun and 
Cisco were able to "hit the ground running." They didn't squander 
precious startup dollars on roof-top jacuzzis and meeting rooms for 
researchers to sit around trying to develop a product. Investment money 
went into production facilities, wire-wrap guns, etc.

Even RSA was basically just commercializing an already-extant thing.

Intel was making and selling actual products within 6 months of its 
formation. (It did _not_ get funding and then sit around in opulent 
surroundings thinking about future directions. In a way, it also "stole" 
its technology, in that its founders had worked on silicon-gate MOS at 
Fairchild and knew how to get rolling quickly. I'm not accusing Intel of 
stealing in any prosecutable sense, but in the sense that this is the 
way evolutionary learning happens: the children of successes create more 
successes.)

By contrast, I've watched dozens of companies (some of them started and 
staffed by my friends) raise some seed capital and _then_ begin their 
research and development! Bad move. For lots of reasons I could write 
about for hours. (Xanadu and AMIX were examples, several Cypherpunks 
startups are other examples.)

(Nutshell: research proceeds unevenly. Breakthroughs. Evolutionary 
learning. Dead-ends. Redirections. "Exploitation of rich veins of ore," 
punctuated equilibrium, time value of money. When a company gets 
investment money, it _must_ begin to use that money _immediately_. 
Ideally, for production facilities, for actual product advertising, for 
_immediate_ uses. The time value of money dictates this. It _cannot_ use 
its money to hire people to sit around and think about future research 
directions. If there is not a _real_ business plan (I don't mean a 
"spreadsheet business plan") with a real revenue stream beginning 
_soon_, why form a company? A lot of naive people seem to think the 
capital markets exist to help them fund their dreams, their vague ideas 
about becoming the next Bill Gates. Maybe the recent dot com collapse 
has changed things.)

There _is_ a place for "service businesses." ISPs, for example. (The 
founders of ZKS made their initial money by setting up a successful ISP 
in Canada and then selling it when the great wave of ISP consolidations 
was cresting. Interestingly, some of the early remailer operators in 
Holland did something very similar, selling their ISP business. Looks 
like this was the real way to make some money. No exotic cutting-edge 
technology, just paying customers.)

There's a saying that "the best is the enemy of the good."  This is part 
of the long debate in computer science between "doing the right thing" 
and "doing what works." The "Right Thing" is the elegant, the 
crystalline, the pure. "What Works" is the crufty, the cobbled-together. 
LISP versus Perl, perhaps. Richard Gabriel has some fun essays along the 
lines of "Worst is Best" (use Google to find them), discussing why the 
workstation and language market developed in the way it did.

In our community (and related orbiting communities), "the cool is the 
enemy of the good." Hence we see multi-year efforts to the really cool 
implementation of hypertext developed, thus running out of money and 
missing the boat on the Web. (Xanadu.) Ditto for digital cash, as 
comparatively low-tech and uncool products like PayPal move in to take 
the low-hanging fruit.

Paying people to sit around and dream about rilly, rilly cool products 
is the kiss of death.

Lastly, the focus on commercialization has been very weird these past 
several years. Nearly everyone jabbers about how to make money off of 
remailers, or data havens, or digital money. But little in the way of 
new ideas are being discussed here.

Our last Cypherpunks meeting was refreshing in that we had a couple of 
good talks on real things and very little of the "lawyer" and "startup 
evangelizing" junk. And we ended with a heated discussion of remailers 
and such, which Len and Steve and others have been writing about.

Even more lastly, you folks out there thinking about how to do a startup 
or make money should be thinking about what I said, and which I am 
certain is basically correct: start up companies are not the place to do 
basic R&D. That's the place for universities and for established 
companies (with the companies either spinning-off divisions or selling 
the products themselves or losing their staff who "steal" the work).

The cost of money is just too high for anyone to fund blue sky dreamers. 
Except as charity.

(I can't resist: Look at Interval Research. Paul Allen, who has almost 
as much money as Bill Gates, decided to try to replicate the success of 
Xerox PARC and funded Interval Research some years ago (around '92-'93, 
IIRC). He gave it a wad of money, they set up shop, they hired Brenda 
Laurel and Lee Felsenstein and all kinds of other bright thinkers and 
dreamers. What came out of it? Nothing. Nada. Nil.)

--Tim May
"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone
  with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later
  convinces himself." -- David Friedman




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Dec 23 12:49:43 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 12:49:43 -0800
Subject: Start Ups, Crypto Companies, and Commercialization
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011222155725.0380c230@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011223124943.00831490@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:55 AM 12/23/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Being an old-timer, I like to say: In my day, we had to walk five miles 
>through the snow to get a cup of mud from the vending machine. Actually, 
>in my day at Intel we were lucky to have patty melts for lunch, as most 
>of us ate out of vending machines (burritos, stale sandwiches, cottage 
>cheese) or out of the vending vans ("roach coaches") which pulled up 
>outside to feed the engineers and operators.
>

"When I was your age we didn't have Tim May! We had to be paranoid
on our own! And we were grateful!" --Alan Olsen




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sun Dec 23 13:59:50 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:59:50 -0800
Subject: C4 commercial web page
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011223135950.00795c70@sarin.com>>


http://www.ribbands.co.uk/prdpages/C4.htm   -nice pix of
a guy pulling C4 taffy


A high quality, very high velocity military plastic explosive.

Our C4 is supplied in bulk drums, in a slightly powdery form. Upon 
manipulation the material immediately consolidates into a rubbery 
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In its original powdery form the explosive may be poured into 
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liner.

Substantial price discounts are available on full shipping 
containers (16 tonnes plus). Please enquire.
UN No. 0084 - HazCat 1.1D

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Trade price: #15/kg ex-works UK
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 MilSpec: MIL-C-45010A
 UK HSE Serial number: 32-A-68450
 RDX content: 91 1 1%
 Polyisobutylene plasticiser: 9 1 1%
 Moisture: 0.1% max
 Velocity of Detonation: 8092 1 26 m/s
 Density: 1.63 g/cm3
 Colour: Nominally white
 TNT equivalence: 118%
 Chemical marking for detection: Marked
 Shelf life: At least 10 years under good conditions




From ryan at havenco.com  Sun Dec 23 06:00:43 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:00:43 +0000
Subject: ecash developer software liability, round 809834
Message-ID: <20011223140043.GA28724@atreides.havenco.com>


(round 809834 because I'm sure this has been discussed 809833 times at
least on this and other lists, but google hasn't found anything
interesting for me)

(I was going to try to make a long posting on what I felt were the
good and bad of the state of play of ecash software development at the
end of 2001, but then I spent a few minutes poking through cypherpunks
archives and realized that's not much new to say which wouldn't need
to be explained in context not a lot of people have.  I'd rather spend
the time this freezing winter day developing some useful software instead.  
(configuring some semi-useful software, rather, right now) 
So instead just a few questions.)

What exactly *is* the legal or security liability if a person of
independent/offshore means develops and delivers an electronic cash
system in an open-source fashion, optionally with no continuing
personal involvement in development, or optionally with continuing personal
software development involvement but no operational involvement?  How
much of a difference do the various levels of removal make?

(in place of "ecash" feel free to substitute "anonymization",
"datahaven", "p2p", "assassination politics bot", etc....the argument
is probably generalizable to any unpopular code which involves money
and privacy.)

I'm unconvinced it's possible to develop any large piece of software
in a truly anonymous manner; anyone who *could* develop ecash has
enough information available about them online to understand what they
did, especially for something as intellectually complex as a workable,
vs. minimum-effort, ecash system.  There is a small enough number of
people who could develop such a thing that a bit of research would
show which ones spent every day for the past 3 months shirking other
professional responsibilities and contacting credit card processors,
writing code, etc.  (plus, of course, ego reasons make it unlikely
the developers of such a thing could remain anonymous)

>From nothing I've seen is the risk anywhere near as substantial as
some would suppose.  Worst case with ecash is that it is ONLY used for
criminal operations; perhaps the ecash operator could be attacked
under RICO?  I think perhaps the developer could be named if there
were more than arms-length interaction between developer and operator,
but this becomes more difficult if post-development the developer
disclaims ownership.  Lets say it is used by real terrorists to
finance the purchase of weapons for a weapon of mass destruction, in a
single transaction, with no other uses.  As long as the developer is
not linked to the operation of the system, and the operator of the
system is not linked to the end parties, I can see legal or extralegal
harassment.  (I am perhaps naively assuming US law is the only law
which matters; this may not be the case)  

But what is the absolute worst thing that will happen?  Extralegal
quasi-governmental execution?  Indefinite imprisonment without trial?
Successful prosecution under some law?  Asset seizure?  Being declared
a bad person by Ashcroft in a press conference?  Not getting invited
to FBI agent parties?  Scorn and slight regard?  You can't "unwrite"
code, and if something is done and shut down, but doesn't fail for
fundamental reasons, it's just a matter of time before someone else
picks up the still-shiny unbroken tools and starts again, perhaps a
bit more carefully.  If people stopped slanging rock every time
someone on the corner got knocked, the ghetto would have a lot fewer BMWs.

The DMCA/Dmitri case is certainly one of the most recent, but the end
result was effectively nothing.  I would be annoyed by spending a year
in a federal jail, but it wouldn't seriously impact my life.  Being
convicted of a felony would be slightly more unpleasant, but not
substantially so -- not that I'm convinced there's much which would
stick.  I don't really need to worry about asset forfeiture, being
declared "evil" by Ashcroft would be worth it, and I doubt I'd get 
invited to FBI parties anyway.  Being murdered by the state would also
be unpleasant, but is at least fairly rare and unlikely.  A
media/government character assassination attempt would be unpleasant
as well, but would be difficult to make stick given the disrespect
large segments of society have for the government and media already.

If the risks of developing ecash really are overblown, perhaps that
will make it more likely people would actively develop software.  That
is, aside from the standard "ecash is a complex system technically", 
"we need money to buy aeron chairs and feed ourselves", "you need to
be able to both develop and operate a system to bootstrap, and these
are different skills", "it's easier to spend time debating why such a
system can't be done or hasn't been done than to actually develop it",
"how will anyone make money from it?", "writing code is hard, let's go
shopping", "crypto-export regulations", "many have tried, all have
failed", "the actual lack of any clear market demand for such a
system, and active opposition on many grounds by those necessary to
deploy widely", "if I wait long enough someone else will do it for me,
and I am lazy", "moral doubts about the goodness of a world with such
a system", "the patent thing", "x, y, and z will sue civilly",
"writing papers and going to conferences/grad school/etc. is more fun
than writing code", and "the fact that a lot of crypto-software
developers are even flakier than normal software developers."

(I don't think just releasing code is productive, but I think there is
a code+limited deployment which would be productive, and is not
substantially more effort.  I think there are certain technical decisions
which must be made by an ecash system with some knowledge of how
things are done in practice, but there have been ~10 attempts at
developing such things in the past, with lots of info available by
talking to the developers or being involved.  Mainly what is important
is to do as little work as possible, the ultimate goal of any software
engineer, and to make sure that as little work as possible is required
to use the system.  There are certain very minor design, API, and UI
decisions which would logically have a very large impact on user
perception (end user and developer), adoption rate, and terminal success.

I also believe in "start small and imperfect, iteratively improve in a 
mostly hill-climbing fashion" and some other very simple rules of 
[open source/internet] software development which have not been
followed by previous projects (some of which I've learned myself at
some cost).  I share the belief that a capitalized,
startup-style, large and collaborative project is entirely the wrong
way to go about things, and would not invest $1 of my own money in
such a thing, but I disagree that it requires any substantial
technical *programming* skill beyond any other moderately-complex
network + crypto programming library; mainly one needs to know how to
avoid doing work.  Since to be useful the system must be integrated
into applications, a lot of thought needs to go into how to design it
to encapsulate nastiness, and integrate with a wide variety of
applications.

The number one thing required to successfully develop and deploy an 
electronic cash system today, though, is being simultaneously
smart enough to be able to do it, but stupid enough to do it anyway,
even given the past failures, lack of rational economic motive, and
potential risks.  People often do irrational things; sometimes this is
constructive, other times it is not, but it's usually interesting, at
least to me.)

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 19:38:09 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:38:09 +1100
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope., 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223123905.00a76150@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Last week I urged cypherpunks to
 > compare and contrast the noam chomsky article,"Objectivity
 > and liberal scholarship."with the material jamesd has on
 > display at his website.

 >>You cite Chomsky as evidence for the truthfullness of
Chomsky.<<

I suggest cypherpunks interested in the perversion of the word anarchy as 
used by crypto-fascists like Tim May read widely,compare and contrast.Try 
murray Bookchin's "the spanish anarchists"and Gaston Leval.George 
Orwell,Abel Paz.
If you dont like chompsky.At the very least Hugh thomas.to balance jamesd's 
effort.

 >>> No anarchist supports a powerful,or indeed,any state

 >>Yet you cite (as evidence that I am a liar) Ian McKay's
article on the Catalonian anarchists, in which he concedes
that the anarchists wound up creating what most people would
call a state, indeed a terrorist dictatorship, but argues
that I am lying in that such a state was a good thing, and
run by nice people, deeply concerned for the welfare of the
masses<<

I maintain that someone relying on your site for information on 
Spain,without other sources,would be misled at the very least.To leave out 
is another way to lie.I dont know who Ian McKay is but Durruti did say,"war 
makes jackals of us all"
Lenin stole anarchist slogans and instituted a terrorist dictatorship.There 
exists a grave danger that crypto-anarchy as promoted by liars would create 
a terrorist dictatorship.The more knowledge we have of hirstorical anarchy 
we have the better.That means a wide variety of sources quoting from 
documents.I still prefer chomsky on spain to you jamesd.

 >>>.Jim Bell seems to be the closest thing to a trad anarchist
 > I've seen on this site

 >>What you are calling traditional anarchists were not
"traditional" until 1938. When anarcho socialists found
themselves implementing socialism in only possible form, in
the form of a terrorist state, some recoiled, and some
redefined anarchy to mean rule by a terror state, rule
unrestricted by law and based on force, reinterpreting their
pre 1936 positions in the light of the new post 1938
position.<<

"Anarcho-socialist","is redundant and unusual.Ive not come across it in 
wide reading of anarchist texts.Who are the 'some' you refer to? No one Ive 
heard of. Anarcho-statist is an oxymoron like anarcho-capitalist.There are 
people who call themselves anarcho-communists.I argue with them 
sometimes.There are a wide range of views within anarchism.
Trad anarchist is what I would say those views at the center were at the 
time a snapshot was taken.Anarchist don't "implement"anarchism,anarchism 
grows organically and exponentially or lays low while marxists and nazi's 
rampage.
If you hate authoritarian and national socialism,I agree.You go over the 
top mixing libertarian socialism in with them.

 >>>.The anarcho-capitalists here are fakes,phonies and
 > frauds that are running but they cant hide,I can see the
 > whites of their eyes.Calling ted turner socialist is not
 > peculiar!?

Ted Turner calls himself socialist. His network used to emit
commie propaganda with great regularity, though since Fox
news started in competition, they have laid off the commie
propaganda.

CNN used to emit commie propaganda,did they? Fascinating! I rest my case at 
this point.Tailgunner Jamesd has the last word.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 19:57:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:57:20 +1100
Subject: America Psycho 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223145055.00a79680@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Given a clone your own kit for an early xmas pressy Im splicing a 
rotweiller and a Shoat.Ill keep you posted.

To paraphrase Mr Shrub,you're a major league ass hole."Witness those little 
white men practising their alibis."Indeed.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Dec 23 15:17:53 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:17:53 -0800
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope., 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223123905.00a76150@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C25F5A1.23649.4B4CDB@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> >Yet you cite (as evidence that I am a liar) Ian McKay's
> >article on the Catalonian anarchists, in which he concedes
> > that the anarchists wound up creating what most people
> > would call a state, indeed a terrorist dictatorship, but
> > argues that I am lying in that such a state was a good
> > thing, and run by nice people, deeply concerned for the
> > welfare of the masses

mattd:
> I maintain that someone relying on your site for
> information on Spain,without other sources,would be misled
> at the very least.To leave out is another way to lie.

Is it a lie to neglect to mention that Adolf Hitler was kind
to dogs? Or that Stalin was courageous and did well in
school?  Or that there were lots of women that Jeffrey Dahmer
did not torture, kill, and eat?  It is certainly true that
all sorts of nice people had all sorts of good intentions in
Catalonia, but when they attempted to implement those good
intentions, they mostly found themselves using the old
familiar methods of recently existent socialism, and when
they did not use those methods, socialism did not work.  That
is the important truth about Catalonia, and all the other
truths, the truths that some people were sincere, the truths
that some people had good intentions, are irrelevant.   I do
mention those truths, briefly.  Unlike the sources you prefer
I do not go into lengthy spiels describing those wonderful
good intentions while ignoring the actual outcome. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     q+/fIX3YcyUPZS3c//ayT8ea4WovmVJkejCauMlK
     4V0+mqGuW1v4QSYGF2joLRHM6on9Tfs4AGB88wstm




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Dec 23 15:17:53 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:17:53 -0800
Subject: Start Ups, Crypto Companies, and Commercialization
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011222155725.0380c230@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3C25F5A1.26572.4B4CD1@localhost>


    --
On Sunday, December 23, 2001, at 01:29 AM, Bill Stewart
wrote:
> > But the easy part of doing digital cash is the software, 
> > and it doesn't take years of Stallman-level or
> > Chaum-level or Ian-or-Ben-or-Lucky-level wizardry to
> > produce it, though it's really helpful to have their
> > insights into what didn't work and what pieces were
> > useful for consumer-quality realizability.

On 23 Dec 2001, at 11:55, Tim May wrote:
> By the way, if "lots of people can turn the algorithm into
> reliable code," where _are_ the implementations? I see bits
> and pieces.
>
> [...]
>
> Evangelizing digital cash, when no real digital cash
> implementation exists, is getting things backwards.

As I said in an earlier posting, doing the software right is
not easy.  It is the upper edge of what can be done by the
lone enthusiast, and he has to be both enthusiastic -- (it is
a big project) and also pretty good.  There are lots of
moving parts, and they have to connect together in a way that
is handy and usable for the end user.

> Because Chaum wished to make money (not an ignoble goal),
> he limited access to the core of his system. (Whatever you
> want to call it, the algorithms, the implementations, the
> ability of others to build products, etc.) There were a
> series of "future by design" projects, but little
> evolutionary learning.

The controls on the flow of money have been tightening.  Ten
years ago the patents were the big problem.  Now the
"abusive" uses of digital money are a far more serious
problem.  With the patent close to running out, and the war
on terrorism being used for war on movement of money, war on
drugs, war on movement of people, patents are now a problem
scarcely worth thinking about. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Un8Ul3GSu21y99/qFl3WEVs/4UZbbcEiRJl9UHD4
     4Z9Sf63qSdKxWNYywWB5qMSzQEBrsi/8HFph0IxB+




From remailer at aarg.net  Sun Dec 23 15:25:28 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:25:28 -0800
Subject: A poll for remailer operators
Message-ID: <196a5ad369d3220c0921156e5c12d29c@aarg.net>


This is simple.

There is a HUGE unknown about the actual number of remailer users. Many otherwise intelligent discussions hinge on this number being small or big.

Unreliable as it will be, could you please provide an estimate of monthly number of human-generated messages that enter your system (excluding those from other remailers.)




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 22 20:30:55 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:30:55 +1100
Subject: "True Names", Tims approaching singularity.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223145901.00a79380@pop.useoz.com>


 >>It goes without saying that anyone attempting a real digital cash
system must do so with no traceable nexus to himself, his programmers,
his assets, or his physical nexus. Freezing of assets under earlier
FinCEN and money-laundering laws would be the least of his worries.<>By "classical" thinking, "Assassination Politics" would have to be the 
best, tightest-security, more protected organization that has ever existed 
on the face of this planet. Just about EVERY powerful person would want to 
kill anybody who had anything to do with such a system. The codes would 
have to be unbreakable, the remailers would have to be certain, but most 
importantly, each and every participant would have to be perfectly 
anonymous to even have a prayer of pulling it off. Especially the operators 
of such a system. Especially them.<>I don't disagree with your view. The nature of the upcoming battle is
becoming clear. This is one reason I have been hoping in recent years
that someone simply wipes out Washington, D.C. Vaporizing the millions
of statists and liberal fascists who work in that viper pit would be a
public good. If some innocents die, big deal. They should get out while
they can. If they don't, think of it as evolution in action.<<

Dont mess with,"extremely dark markets,"just approve the murder of innocent 
millions.May as OBL.No morals and ultimately no reason.Chest thumping and 
showboating from an alpha baboon whose rainbows fading.Those in the employ 
of the state should get out before the "extremely dark markets"start.Tim 
should just get out.

 >>...the vaporization of Greater Washington would go a long way toward
ending this War on (Some) Drugs. Let's just hope the reports that UBL
and Al Quida smuggled two RP-59 suitcase nukes to the West are correct.

Tim and his buddy heiney,cold nuclear warriors.Hopefully tim will be buried 
in a lead lined coffin soon,real soon.I have friends in DC.you fucking west 
coast bill white.Those ninja you see coming for you might not be feds.Im 
mailing you some good ol aussie plutonium.Knock yourself out.




From null at aitcom.net  Sun Dec 23 12:40:00 2001
From: null at aitcom.net (null at aitcom.net)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:40:00 -0500
Subject: AIT Abuse Complaint
Message-ID: <200112232040.PAA14127@aitcom.net>


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From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Sun Dec 23 16:30:29 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:30:29 -0800
Subject: A poll for remailer operators
Message-ID: <53d8d886d6ad62d2948217ee9244358b@melontraffickers.com>


> There is a HUGE unknown about the actual number of remailer users. Many
> otherwis e intelligent discussions hinge on this number being small
> or big.
>
> Unreliable as it will be, could you please provide an estimate of monthly
> number of human-generated messages that enter your system (excluding
> those from other remailers.)

Good question.  Maybe another way to get at it would be, how many distinct
email addresses send a message to the remailer over the course of a month?
Presumably no more than about 20 or 30 of these are remailers and pingers.
If there are only 40 distinct email addresses, then we remailer users
are in trouble.  If there are 100000, we are in good shape.  Probably
the answer is something in between, but it sure would be good to know.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Sun Dec 23 13:35:45 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:35:45 -0500
Subject: FFRDCs was: Start Ups, Crypto Companies, and Commercialization
Message-ID: <200112232135.QAA29610@mail.lokmail.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: application/pgp
Size: 7838 bytes
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URL: 

From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Dec 23 19:59:47 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:59:47 -0800
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224124444.00a782c0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C2637B3.21693.C80F48@localhost>


James A. Donald:
> > they mostly found themselves using the old familiar methods of 
recently existent 
socialism, and when they did not use those methods, socialism 
did not work. That
> > is the important truth about Catalonia,

mattd:
> Libertarian socialism did work,see Gaston 
Leval,Bookchin,Paz,Chomsky and 
> even H.Thomas.

Commie liars, except for Thomas, who does not say what you 
claim he does.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 23 01:47:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 20:47:21 +1100
Subject: Tim May in a box.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011223201611.00a39860@pop.useoz.com>


Matts monetarism is an advance on Milton Friedmans;Everyone a mint means 
the govt no longer has to keep a tight fist on the money supply.Its supply 
of money is rapidly depleted as no taxes come in.All attempts to collect 
tax meeting stiff resistance ranging from civil and passive disobedience 
all the way up to the disappearance's of several highly placed IRS 
agents.I'm confident enough now to offer 100,000,000$ BUMs or US dollars 
for the head of GWB.While the remailer threads been interesting,the fact 
that one of the very first in would be Soprano waste management's APster 
for hitmen.
Fascist celebrities,crypto-fascists,the entire oligarchy would be wiped out 
almost overnight.Where the hell are they going to fly to that's not online? 
Funny if they all wound up in Afghanistan.Might help the local economy 
recover.The mexican wave of crypto-anarchy will sweep all nations before 
it.When you see the lungs of America collapse and the life pass out of the 
last empire,who will stand against that power?Everyone with a computer is a 
remailer.Everyone can become a mint with the knowledge that 
reputations,financial especially,will be measured in negative terms such as 
AP nominations.Such is life.


Cruel are the times when we are traitors
and do not know ourselves;When we hold rumor
from what we fear,yet know not what we fear,
but float upon a wild and violent sea
each way...and none.
Macbeth.




From unicorn at schloss.li  Sun Dec 23 19:39:13 2001
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 21:39:13 -0600
Subject: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
In-Reply-To: <20011223140043.GA28724@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Ryan Lackey
> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 8:01 AM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: ecash developer software liability, round 809834

[There isn't much new to talk about so instead...]

> ... just a few questions.
>
> What exactly *is* the legal or security liability if a person of
> independent/offshore means develops and delivers an electronic cash
> system in an open-source fashion, optionally with no continuing
> personal involvement in development, or optionally with
> continuing personal software development involvement but no
> operational involvement?  How much of a difference do the
> various levels of removal make?

I think I can speak to this with some degree of experience.

Legal liability is the big issue.  By "continuing personal involvement" I
will assume you mean acting as an officer of the company.

The most serious level of legal liability that concerned me was the
potential for criminal and civil sanctions for money laundering.  I am
constantly amazed by the level of self-denial cypherpunks have when it comes
for legal liability in this regard.  (Usually this is justified with some
cutesy-clever technical argument- as if no one had been watching the
Napster, eGold or RIAA developments at all over the last few years).

Money laundering is a slam dunk for prosecutors and very tempting to use
because of its connotations to a jury/defense counsel.  It is simple to
allege.  It also has MAJOR impact on potential sentencing.  Consider:

"Analyzing actual cases, the working group found that money laundering
charges most often involved a relatively routine financial transaction
(e.g., depositing, wiring, transferring, withdrawing money) that was
essentially "incidental" to an underlying crime (e.g., a fraud, gambling
offense, or drug sale) that the defendant charged with money laundering had
also committed. The working group concluded that while the underlying crime
usually appeared to be the real gravamen of the overall offense conduct, a
money laundering count could generate a guideline offense level that was
quite different from that of the underlying offense, and, as a consequence,
greatly influence the sentence."

"With respect to what the working group categorized as "white collar"
offenses (i.e., fraud, embezzlement, import/export violations, and copyright
infringement), the working group found that the addition of a money
laundering count raised the defendant's offense level 96% of the time, and
frequently to a significant degree. For example, in one reasonably typical
case examined by the working group, the defendant had committed a fraud and
deposited the proceeds of the fraud in the bank. Consistent with court
decisions construing the money laundering statute, the government charged
the deposit of the fraud's proceeds in the bank as money laundering, in this
case for "promoting" the fraud by allowing the defendant access to the funds
for personal use. Pursuant to the fraud guideline (2F1.1), the offense level
for the underlying fraud was 19 (guideline range of 30-37 months for
defendants with no criminal history). Pursuant to the money laundering
guideline (2S1.1), the offense level for the money laundering offense - -
here, promoting the fraud by depositing the fraud's proceeds in the bank for
personal use was 28 (guideline range of 78-97 months for defendants with no
criminal history). Thus, the addition of the money laundering count in this
case substantially increased the defendant's sentence."  (United States
Sentencing Commission Report).

While this might not directly impact the person running or developing the
system it certain serves to discourage users of the system after a single
allegation has been made.  Customer flight would be awfully dramatic I
suspect.  This makes a system which is bound (by design and definition) to
be political unpopular also highly subject to political interference.

It's the civil provisions that I find more alarming though.  One dollar of
laundered money in an account subjects the entire account to seizure.
That's not a good thing and assuming any ecash system had correspondent bank
relations (a safe assumption if you know anything about financial systems.

No.  Ecash for widespread public use is just not a viable proposition at
this point.  Even less so after 911.

> (in place of "ecash" feel free to substitute "anonymization",
> "datahaven", "p2p", "assassination politics bot", etc....the argument
> is probably generalizable to any unpopular code which involves money
> and privacy.)

I believe it is.  Given the current state of the law money laundering might
as well be the anonymization of transactions for unpopular purposes (the
entire purpose of ecash).  It is a political definition, not a technical
one- much as "terrorism" has become.

> I'm unconvinced it's possible to develop any large piece of software
> in a truly anonymous manner; anyone who *could* develop ecash has
> enough information available about them online to understand what they
> did, especially for something as intellectually complex as a workable,
> vs. minimum-effort, ecash system.  There is a small enough number of
> people who could develop such a thing that a bit of research would
> show which ones spent every day for the past 3 months shirking other
> professional responsibilities and contacting credit card processors,
> writing code, etc.  (plus, of course, ego reasons make it unlikely
> the developers of such a thing could remain anonymous)

I assume that the suggestion is that a smaller operation, a grassroots one,
would somehow fare better.  I don't believe this is the case.  More below.

> From nothing I've seen is the risk anywhere near as substantial as
> some would suppose.  Worst case with ecash is that it is ONLY used for
> criminal operations; perhaps the ecash operator could be attacked
> under RICO?

Money Laundering is its own RICO.  (See e.g. Elkan Abramowitz, Money
Laundering: The New RICO?, N.Y.L.J., Sept. 1, 1992).  Again and again, here
and elsewhere I've cited cases and statutes that make it pretty clear that
innocent third parties easily become the victims of money laundering
prosecutions and lose their businesses, their checking accounts, college
funds, their homes, etc. simply because their family run travel agency
accepted a check from a drug baron they had never met to pay for his trip to
South America.  An ecash system, particularly a small one, simply has no
chance once it is used for child porn once or twice.  A large bank might get
away with it the way large banks do.

Hawala systems are effectively 100% certain to be subject to laundering
charges when discovered operating in the United States.  They are not much
more than primitive ecash systems.  The timing for suggesting that such a
system would have any legal lifetime is pretty bad given the current
environment.  The trend in such things in the United States is moving
strongly AGAINST financial privacy, not towards it.

> I think perhaps the developer could be named if there
> were more than arms-length interaction between developer and operator,
> but this becomes more difficult if post-development the developer
> disclaims ownership.  Lets say it is used by real terrorists to
> finance the purchase of weapons for a weapon of mass destruction, in a
> single transaction, with no other uses.  As long as the developer is
> not linked to the operation of the system, and the operator of the
> system is not linked to the end parties, I can see legal or extralegal
> harassment.  (I am perhaps naively assuming US law is the only law
> which matters; this may not be the case)

U.S. law is probably the most extreme, so that might be a safe assumption.
(Perhaps Britain would be nearly as bad).  What is missed here is that "the
developer is not linked to the operation" is a very optimistic assumption.
It's the developer that will have to consult on the implementation, on the
security provisions, on deployment, designing against the threat model.
Anyone who believes this process won't trigger the "knew or should have
known" provisions is kidding themselves.  Invoking the Terrorist example is
probably extreme for discussion purposes but I doubt that anyone here, if
they were to really think it out, would believe that the author would not be
detained in a Federal Detention "Submarine" for weeks at a time in this
case- direct involvement or not.  The threshold for detention these days
seems to be "knew someone who once met a terrorist."

> But what is the absolute worst thing that will happen?  Extralegal
> quasi-governmental execution?  Indefinite imprisonment without trial?
> Successful prosecution under some law?  Asset seizure?  Being declared
> a bad person by Ashcroft in a press conference?  Not getting invited
> to FBI agent parties?  Scorn and slight regard?  You can't "unwrite"
> code, and if something is done and shut down, but doesn't fail for
> fundamental reasons, it's just a matter of time before someone else
> picks up the still-shiny unbroken tools and starts again, perhaps a
> bit more carefully.  If people stopped slanging rock every time
> someone on the corner got knocked, the ghetto would have a lot fewer BMWs.

I suppose if someone wanted you badly enough they would make arguments which
included conspiracy, money laundering, conspiracy to commit terrorism,
conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to... [fill in the blank].  The BEST
case scenario in the case that they wanted you badly enough (and doubtless
this would happen in the example you cite) is that you turn states evidence,
show them the best way to break or introduce a break/trojan into the system
and fall into the pit of witness relocation, looking over your shoulder for
the rest of your life wondering when the missing remnants of terrorist group
X will come calling.  There is that other cute clause too.  "Material
witness."  Oops.

> The DMCA/Dmitri case is certainly one of the most recent, but the end
> result was effectively nothing.

I'm not sure Dmitri would agree.  Regardless, the issue was much different.
Dmitri wasn't a U.S. Citizen.  I daresay the situation would have been
entirely different (worse) if he were.  This was effectively a civil, not a
criminal action, despite DoJ noise to the contrary.  You're not dealing with
the prosecutors in the organized crime/money laundering group who are a lot
more cut-throat (and a lot more experienced at cutting throats).  Copyright
and DMCA are a fairly new area and attract young and inexperienced
prosecutors.  The result is a certain uncertainty and experimentalism with
techniques and legal theory.  None of these failings will afflict a
prosecutor in the money laundering/organized crime sections of DoJ.  These
people play for keeps.

> I would be annoyed by spending a year
> in a federal jail, but it wouldn't seriously impact my life.

I submit that this belief indicates you've never seen the inside of a
federal prison.  Remember also that terrorists don't go to Danbury.  They go
to the Supermax in Colorado.  Also, most states have money laundering
statutes too.  You'll be lucky not to do time in both a state and a federal
prison during the course of your ordeal if things get nasty enough.

> Being convicted of a felony would be slightly more unpleasant, but not
> substantially so -- not that I'm convinced there's much which would
> stick.

Doesn't have to stick.  Why would you think it has to stick?  People are
incarcerated on little or no evidence all the time, particular if they are
involved in politically unpopular activities- otherwise totally legitimate.
(No more guns for you either as a convicted felon).

> I don't really need to worry about asset forfeiture, being
> declared "evil" by Ashcroft would be worth it, and I doubt I'd get
> invited to FBI parties anyway.

Asset forfeiture can include garnishment.  That can last quite a while.  I
doubt you want to be big enough a deal to be known by name to Ashcroft.  I'm
sure it might be interesting to be a famous hacker a la Mitnick and bask in
the glow of contraries rebellious reputation you'd gain among all 17 year
old suburban males running a Morpheus supernode with all the albums of
Metallica ever pressed.  I doubt its worth it.

> Being murdered by the state would also
> be unpleasant, but is at least fairly rare and unlikely.

Agreed.

> A media/government character assassination attempt would be unpleasant
> as well, but would be difficult to make stick given the disrespect
> large segments of society have for the government and media already.

You haven't been watching the last 3 months have you?

> If the risks of developing ecash really are overblown, perhaps that
> will make it more likely people would actively develop software.  That
> is, aside from the standard "ecash is a complex system technically",
> "we need money to buy aeron chairs and feed ourselves", "you need to
> be able to both develop and operate a system to bootstrap, and these
> are different skills", "it's easier to spend time debating why such a
> system can't be done or hasn't been done than to actually develop it",
> "how will anyone make money from it?", "writing code is hard, let's go
> shopping", "crypto-export regulations", "many have tried, all have
> failed", "the actual lack of any clear market demand for such a
> system, and active opposition on many grounds by those necessary to
> deploy widely", "if I wait long enough someone else will do it for me,
> and I am lazy", "moral doubts about the goodness of a world with such
> a system", "the patent thing", "x, y, and z will sue civilly",
> "writing papers and going to conferences/grad school/etc. is more fun
> than writing code", and "the fact that a lot of crypto-software
> developers are even flakier than normal software developers."

See, all the arguments you make by comparison apply equally to Napster.
(Particularly insofar as they ignored the potential liabilities and civil
actions when they designed the system).  Let's face it, if there's no market
for ecash what's the point in developing it.  Cypherpunks are remarkable
socialist when it comes to ignoring market forces in order to favor the
develop a "cool" and esthetically pleasing system that no one will use.
This is unfortunate.

> (I don't think just releasing code is productive, but I think there is
> a code+limited deployment which would be productive, and is not
> substantially more effort.  I think there are certain technical decisions
> which must be made by an ecash system with some knowledge of how
> things are done in practice, but there have been ~10 attempts at
> developing such things in the past, with lots of info available by
> talking to the developers or being involved.

Legal problems or not, and different members of this list will have
different views about how realistic it is or isn't to be harassed over
writing some code.  In the end it makes little difference.  The problem with
ecash is that it doesn't do enough things significantly better than current
solutions for a retail system.  It does some things much worse.  I've always
believed that the best deployment would be in a interbank role, where
clearing and settlement actually have important time components-
counter-party credit, Herstatt risk, etc. and the sums are large enough to
make small to moderate improvements in performance important.

> Mainly what is important
> is to do as little work as possible...

Coding is hard, let's go shopping?

> the ultimate goal of any software
> engineer, and to make sure that as little work as possible is required
> to use the system.  There are certain very minor design, API, and UI
> decisions which would logically have a very large impact on user
> perception (end user and developer), adoption rate,

In other words the market for it?

> and terminal success.
>
> I also believe in "start small and imperfect, iteratively improve in a
> mostly hill-climbing fashion" and some other very simple rules of
> [open source/internet] software development which have not been
> followed by previous projects (some of which I've learned myself at
> some cost).  I share the belief that a capitalized,
> startup-style, large and collaborative project is entirely the wrong
> way to go about things, and would not invest $1 of my own money in
> such a thing...

"Start-up" is the part that trips it up, not "large and collaborative
project."  At least, insofar as "start-up" means "spend untold millions
hiring 150 recent college grads for $120,000 a year, trying to beat
Microsoft for 'most opulent campus' hiring a 'start-up advisory' firm to
clean the mess up after your third failed follow-on financing and otherwise
acting like idiots."  Competent firms, and competent managers don't do such
things.  (Granted they are few and far between since 1997).  Don't paint
dot-coms with a brush so wide it slathers legitimate ventures as well.

As for small ecash projects you might want to consider something.
Historically there is a certain group of firms that are among the, if not
_the_, most stable and reliable financial institutions.  Those are closely
held private banks.  In Switzerland, Austria, and once in Italy, these are
subject to unlimited liability.  (Usually they are unlimited general
partnerships).  That means that the owners are fully liable for all the
liabilities of the bank to the extent of their entire set of business AND
personal assets.  Usually they are run by well known families with
substantial fortunes.  I am not aware of any of these institutions failing
(or indeed failing to make a profit) since they have existed (provided there
was an heir apparent to the institution in existence- eliminating the "last
round" problem).  At the same time these firms provide little, or indeed NO
disclosure over their activities or holdings either to depositors, or to
authorities.  One firm I know of pays the same amount in taxes every year,
even if they owe less, to prevent any reverse engineering of profits.  This
same firm returns 17%-20% regularly on their "Silver Fund" for which no
prospectus or description is available- even to investors.

All this illustrates an important principal.  Secrecy and limited liability,
by necessity, have a zero sum relationship.  As you increase secrecy you
must decrease limited liability in step.  "Secret, Limited Liability,
Successful, pick two."  The combination of limited (non-existent) liability
and secrecy is simply an impossibility for a financial organization.  "A
Small unknown and poorly financed firm" might as well be limited liability
for our purposes- no one is going to see a dime back from it if it fails.
Also, note that unlimited liability has a much stronger assurance quality.
(See e.g., Enron, FDIC insurance for the failure of "disclosure" to properly
compensate for limited liability or moral hazard).

Additionally, based on my experience doing business with cypherpunks there
is no hope for "business credentials without identity" amongst those who
should be the most receptive to it.  (The due diligence demands of
cypherpunks I've encountered in the business world far exceed those I
endured at the hands of European banking authorities).  Then again, perhaps
the paranoia of cypherpunks types is better developed than that of European
banking authorities.  (That could be taken many ways, depending on your view
of European banking types).  I suspect that you might find that a small
ecash project, which by its nature would appeal to cypherpunks as clear (and
perhaps the only) first adopters will find that most cypherpunks "would not
invest $1 of my own money in such a thing."  That should be all that needs
to be said about the viability of a "small ecash project."

Perhaps one might make a distinction between the development of an ecash
system and its deployment, but I doubt it will make much difference.  The
basic tools of ecash have been floating about for some time.

[...]

> The number one thing required to successfully develop and deploy an
> electronic cash system today, though, is being simultaneously
> smart enough to be able to do it, but stupid enough to do it anyway,
> even given the past failures, lack of rational economic motive, and
> potential risks.  People often do irrational things; sometimes this is
> constructive, other times it is not, but it's usually interesting, at
> least to me.)

I submit that we should endeavor to find a motivator a bit more solid than
that it would entertain the developers.  It sounds suspiciously as if you
might need an entertainment center in your dot-com campus.  Entertainment
for the developers is, of course, what the firm is in business for.  (From
what I know of you that's a bit shocking to hear.  If that's all the case
then just write the damn thing and distribute it via usenet, Mr. Lackey).

> --
> Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
> CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277
> the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
> OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Dec 23 12:45:47 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 21:45:47 +0100 (MET)
Subject: FY;) [Pigdog] I've changed my mind, the 2nd amendment rocks (fwd)
Message-ID: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 12:42:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Donkey Hotey 
Reply-To: pigdog-l at bearfountain.com
To: pigdog-l at bearfountain.com
Subject: [Pigdog] I've changed my mind, the 2nd amendment rocks

So yesterday for my girlfriend's birthday 10 of us went to the Jackson
Arms Shooting Range ( http://www.jacksonarms.com ) in Millbrae to shoot
some guns.
I was a little scared about going, guns being EVIL and WRONG and very
Un-Berkeley (unless they're melted down into a statue provoting
nonviolence), but it was her 30th birthday, and she could do whatever the
hell she pleases.
We signed up for the novice package, which I must say is a pretty damn
good deal.  A retired cop gives you a 30 minute lecture on gun safety, how
guns work, how to grip them, how to aim them and all that good stuff.  He
used a Ruger MkII .22 pistol for the demonstration.  It was a little
disturbing, because I was sitting in the front of the class, and everytime
he needed to show one side of the gun or the other, he would point it up
and around in this big dramatic motion.  The intent was so that the gun
never faced anybody, but it was still a little scarey.
After the lecture and a little video that showed the semi-automatic pistol
reloading, we got to go to the range.  Everybody got a Ruger .22 and 100
bullets for target practice, but we were also allowed to upgrade our
pistols later.  We had the lane for two hours.
I was a tad bit scared when I picked up the gun, but not much as I would
have been if I hadn't had the course.  All my shots were consistently at 7
o'clock on the target (which was only 7 yards away).  I was sticking my
trigger finger too far into the trigger, so I was pulling it down and to
the left (I'm left handed).  The 3 women who were there were all DROP DEAD
ACCURATE though.  I mean right in the center of the target every single
time.
So we started upgrading our guns.  I tried a 9mm (don't know what kind)
which I thought was as little jumpy and harsh, a Smith & Wesson revolver
(a .38 which is a .357 which is a .356 or some such nonsense) which was
FUCKING AWESOME, and a .44 which made really big wholes.  I have to say I
liked the revolver the most.  Once I shot the other weapons, I went back
to the .22 and was a hell of a lot more accurate.  The thing seemed like a
weak little toy gun.  It might as well be shooting suction darts.

They have a whole bunch of targets that you can choose from.... my
favorite was the hostage page. It had some unabomber looking guy with a
gun pointed at a woman.  I blasted the woman right between the eyes.

While we were there, a reporter from K101 who was doing a story on women
and guns interviewed us.  I guess she's a regular and when she learned a
woman was celebrating her 30th birthday by learning how to shoot, she had
to be there.  The woman kept asking Mary about safety and protection and
Mary said "oh, no, I just wanted to shoot stuff."  I guess we weren't what
she was looking for.  Mary will get a copy of the story in the mail, so
we'll see her take later.

Wow I really didn't think I'd enjoy shooting guns.  Now I need to join a
militia right away.
The teacher at one point did mention the 2nd amendment.  He said
"although the 2nd amendment guarantees us the right to bear arms, we do
not believe guns are for everybody."  So that was wholesome and
refreshing.   When the revolution comes I won't shoot him.  Actually I
think I'll stay away from him, after I saw what he could do rapidfire.
Also he would like the world to know that Danny Glover doesn't know how to
handle a firearm.

yikes! guns are cool!  What's a hippyuppymus to do?!?!


-- 
"go ahead, make my day. BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM"
	-- Ben Franklin







From popkin at nym.alias.net  Sun Dec 23 16:05:13 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 24 Dec 2001 00:05:13 -0000
Subject: Hillary style health plan to save US
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222005114.00a75e20@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011224000513.25929.qmail@nym.alias.net>

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From nobody at dizum.com  Sun Dec 23 18:00:26 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 03:00:26 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Coderpunks down?
Message-ID: <2d1bef9d090fe714cdcca58ae807db4d@dizum.com>


www.mail-archive.com has no messages from coderpunks at toad.com since
December 7.  Ryan Lackey posted a message to cypherpunks and coderpunks
on Friday December 22 but it has not appeared on coderpunks.  Is that
list down?  Who is the administrator?




From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Dec 23 21:20:04 2001
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: 24 Dec 2001 05:20:04 -0000
Subject: [Refomatted] US neglects to include Saudi responsibility in
  'translati
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011221064445.00795100@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 


In <3.0.5.32.20011221064445.00795100 at sarin.com>, you write:

> A new ABCNEWS translation of the Osama bin Laden videotape released
> last week reveals information that may be embarrassing to Saudi
> Arabia, a very important U.S. ally. Bin Laden Hunt Strains U.S-Saudi
> Relations Excerpts of the Bin Laden Video Weigh In Poll: Americans
> Believe Toughest Battles Ahead
>
> When the videotape of Osama bin Laden talking about the Sept. 11
> terror attacks was released by the United States government on Dec.
> 13, administration officials spoke at length about the extensive
> effort to achieve a full and accurate transcript.
>
> The translation commissioned by ABCNEWS, however, reveals new elements
> that raise questions about what the government left out of the
> official version and why.
>
> The new translation uncovers statements that could be embarrassing
> to the government of Saudi Arabia, a very important U.S. ally. Bin
> Laden's visitor, Khalid al Harbi, a Saudi dissident, claims that he
> was smuggled into Afghanistan by a member of Saudi Arabia's religious
> police.
>
> He also tells bin Laden that in Saudi Arabia, several prominent
> clerics some with connections to the Saudi government made speeches
> supporting the attacks on America.
>
> "Right at the time of the strike on America, he gave a very moving
> speech, Sheikh Abdulah al Baraak," bin Laden said on the tape. "And he
> deserves thanks for that."
>
> Sheikh al Baraak, to whom the visitor refers, is a professor at a
> government university and a member of an influential council on
> religious law.
>
> "It shows that bin Laden's support is not limited to the radical side
> of Islam but also among the Saudi religious establishment," says Fawaz
> Gerges, professor of Middle Eastern studies at Sarah Lawrence College.
> "And that is bad news for Saudi Arabia."
>
> ..... US protecting foreign tyrants, but hey, gas is cheap, and it
> only cost a spook, a marine's foot, a few thou newyorkers (and some
> of them were traders ferchrissakes, like NYPD corpses they're divine
> payback) and look at how the flag industry stimulated the economy
> and enhanced trade with WTO-China Inc another great bunch of freedom
> loving folks




From b5687 at manager.de  Mon Dec 24 02:52:27 2001
From: b5687 at manager.de (b5687 at manager.de)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 05:52:27 -0500
Subject: Government Grants For You...........                         17594
Message-ID: <000073c2167f$00005b93$000044ba@orgio.net>

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From Johnhubert at doityourself.com  Mon Dec 24 06:30:03 2001
From: Johnhubert at doityourself.com (Johnhubert at doityourself.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 06:30:03 -0800
Subject: Can we help you with Prescriptions needs???
Message-ID: 

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From measl at mfn.org  Mon Dec 24 04:45:23 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 06:45:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html
Message-ID: 



This just gets better and better...

"Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration announced Sunday all
U.S. airports are required to add random shoe checks of passengers to the
already established practice of random baggage checks." 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ryan at havenco.com  Sun Dec 23 23:17:13 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 07:17:13 +0000
Subject: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash
  developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011223140043.GA28724@atreides.havenco.com>
  
Message-ID: <20011224071713.GA32106@atreides.havenco.com>


[How...1997]

Quoting Black Unicorn :
> 
> Legal liability is the big issue.  By "continuing personal involvement" I
> will assume you mean acting as an officer of the company.

I was trying to distinguish involvement as an officer in a development
company vs. a deployment company, but yes.

> [money laundering liability for users and/or operators, seems clear]
> 
> While this might not directly impact the person running or developing the
> system it certain serves to discourage users of the system after a single
> allegation has been made.  Customer flight would be awfully dramatic I
> suspect.  This makes a system which is bound (by design and definition) to
> be political unpopular also highly subject to political interference.
> 
> It's the civil provisions that I find more alarming though.  One dollar of
> laundered money in an account subjects the entire account to seizure.
> That's not a good thing and assuming any ecash system had correspondent bank
> relations (a safe assumption if you know anything about financial systems.
> 
> No.  Ecash for widespread public use is just not a viable proposition at
> this point.  Even less so after 911.

I am not as interested in the risks to a monolithic electronic cash
system, holding accounts at Bank of New York and a few others,
developed internally, where all user funds are pooled, but rather the
most distributed system feasible.  While the only way I can see to get
a system deployed is for a single organization to develop software,
and another or the same to operate or contract for the threshold
number of services required to provide a decent end-user experience,
the system could easily metastasize and decentralize when required.
This has been the case with several fielded payment systems already.

[based on the Ian Grigg 5-part model from FC99, Ian
Goldberg/etc. change-maker model, and general best practice for ecash
in 2001:]

1) a market which holds no physical assets, trading as a piece of software

Since this component has no physical assets, it would seem only a
technical challenge to keep it operating in the face of attack.

2) software developers developing code to a published specification,
such that end-users can develop their own software, or select from
competing vendors.

This would allow some of the more "research"
aspects to be undertaken by developers arms-length or more from those
providing customization work to potentially at-risk clients.  Open
source and network software has many precedents here; gaming software
in particular, given the US legal situation and tinges of money
laundering risk.

3) issuers

Aside from traditional forms of risk, issuers could differentiate
themselves based on regulatory compliance or regulatory risk.
Conceivably, entirely underground currencies (the "gold-denominated,
opium-backed burmese opium futures" of yore) could operate,
maintaining backing in effectively 

There is little or no reason for the issuers to have any contact with
the developers, or with the market, or indeed even with end users --
only with (possibly anonymized and/or arms-length) the change-makers,
or with server operators (again, possibly nothing but arms-length)

4) operators of servers

A reasonable electronic cash system would be turnkey, at least at the
scales likely initially.  The only transactions a mint should do can
be enumerated in a 1-page API.  Integration with existing back-office
banking systems, external payment systems, etc.  is complex, but not
necessary with the change-maker optimization.  Assuming ultimate
liability held by a single individual per currency, with only very
large and infrequent transactions between backing store for currency,
and bulk sales to change-makers, most of the access control or automated
transactions can be deferred; a simple authentication and direct
(logged) double-entry modification of values is enough.

These parties would not need to hold any financial assets other than
those required to maintain servers.  One could further refine to
"colocation provider" who sells a server, and a "systems operator"
who, fully anonymously, installs and operates electronic cash software
on those servers, connecting via anonymized ssh, paying for physical
services in cash, etc.

5) [optional] holders of backing assets for issuers

In the case of unlimited-liability by an issuer, the need for an
external party to hold assets for the issuer is reduced.  If the rate
of transactions is reduced sufficiently, ease of holding large assets
without risk

(the trivial case is Cryptonomicon-style direct holding of large
physical assets; for development purposes, I could easily hold up to
USD 10m-50m in physical assets in a spare machine room without substantial 
upgrades to security...2-3 day latency, or issuance against personal
liability, or issuance against large physical assets.)

For reasons of auditiability, it is of course desirable to separate
the trustee of such assets from the other parties, but this is just an 
optimization (which would decrease the discount at which an issue may
trade; do it when the cost is exceeded by the benefit)

6) end-users

This is perhaps the most complex issue, and probably worthy of a
separate discussion.  This is one area I think most ecash systems have
failed at.  You propose using banks themselves as customers; perhaps
this is interesting, but I'm not convinced they would adopt a system
in a realtime timeframe.  I'd love to be proven wrong.

I know of several legitimate applications which have market demands
for certain restricted forms of electronic cash which would be early
adopters, provided certain performance and reliability specs were met,
with a certain degree of end-user usability.  All of which could be
achieved by the proposed system in a very early stage.

7) "change makers"

Participants who hold one or more forms of electronic cash, operating as
banks, corporations, or informal traders, and can exchange electronic
cash for something of value, and optionally vice versa, with at least
some subset of users.  These could easily be arms length from everyone
else, evanescent, and the collapse of one would have no serious consequences.

I assume the electronic cash system, as the law is written today,
WOULD be sufficient to serve as a "firewall" between change-makers
handling the same currencies, and certainly against change-makers
handling diverse currencies.  This is the #1 question I have.  If this
is the case, then I think an electronic cash system is completely
viable even post 2001-09-11.  As long as shutting down one change
maker's bank accounts would not affect other change makers, a system
could withstand most of the "obvious" attacks.

8) supporting services

Ratings services, tickers, derivative instruments, consulting for
merchants, etc. are all services which could be done easily by arms
length entities.
> 
> I assume that the suggestion is that a smaller operation, a grassroots one,
> would somehow fare better.  I don't believe this is the case.  More below.

I am suggesting a distributed system where each participant is
expendable is far better from a deployment standpoint than a
monolithic system.

I am suggesting that for development purposes, a small, grassroots
organization *is* vastly superior to a larger one.
> 
> Money Laundering is its own RICO.  (See e.g. Elkan Abramowitz, Money
> Laundering: The New RICO?, N.Y.L.J., Sept. 1, 1992).  Again and again, here
> and elsewhere I've cited cases and statutes that make it pretty clear that
> innocent third parties easily become the victims of money laundering
> prosecutions and lose their businesses, their checking accounts, college
> funds, their homes, etc. simply because their family run travel agency
> accepted a check from a drug baron they had never met to pay for his trip to
> South America.  An ecash system, particularly a small one, simply has no
> chance once it is used for child porn once or twice.  A large bank might get
> away with it the way large banks do.

I think a large bank's protections would rapidly boil away in the heat
if they intentionally developed or deployed a system designed to go
against the anti-privacy trend of the past 50 years.  But of course
they have no incentive to do so in the first place.

I'm willing to accept that a change maker could be shut down easily if
it were used for an unpopular purpose.  The other participants would
seem much more difficult to attack.  And provided attacking one does
not automatically take down other unrelated competitors at the same
level, it shouldn't affect the whole system; the system will build in
discounts based on risk.

> Hawala systems are effectively 100% certain to be subject to laundering
> charges when discovered operating in the United States.  They are not much
> more than primitive ecash systems.  The timing for suggesting that such a
> system would have any legal lifetime is pretty bad given the current
> environment.  The trend in such things in the United States is moving
> strongly AGAINST financial privacy, not towards it.

The only real risk is if the *demand* for financial privacy decreases,
not if the cost to provide financial privacy increases.  Perhaps if
cost is driven past what customers are willing to pay for widespread
applications, but I think there are enough high-value applications in
the underground economy to support even a relatively expensive system.

And if a given hawala trader is shut down, but cannot identify other
hawala traders, except that they all use torn federal reserve notes as
tokens, no action will be taken against the fed; others hawala traders
will raise their rates to compensate, if risk is judged to be higher.

> U.S. law is probably the most extreme, so that might be a safe assumption.
> (Perhaps Britain would be nearly as bad).  What is missed here is that "the
> developer is not linked to the operation" is a very optimistic assumption.
> It's the developer that will have to consult on the implementation, on the
> security provisions, on deployment, designing against the threat model.
> Anyone who believes this process won't trigger the "knew or should have
> known" provisions is kidding themselves.  Invoking the Terrorist example is
> probably extreme for discussion purposes but I doubt that anyone here, if
> they were to really think it out, would believe that the author would not be
> detained in a Federal Detention "Submarine" for weeks at a time in this
> case- direct involvement or not.  The threshold for detention these days
> seems to be "knew someone who once met a terrorist."

This is the only area where I disagree substantially; I think a system
could easily be developed such that initial developers were not
necessary to continuing maintenance, implementation, security, etc.
With a reasonable degree of initial effort, and a background in
easily-modified open source development, at least.  This
does make it much more difficult for ecash developers to extract
revenue from sale of software, which is why it hasn't been done in the
past, but perhaps this is one of the many cases where it's far easier
to accomplish something if you don't care about who gets the credit or
benefit for it.

Certainly arrest or questioning could be used as a harassment tactic,
but I don't see much potential for successful prosecution here.  Both
are bad, but conviction is worse.

> I suppose if someone wanted you badly enough they would make arguments which
> included conspiracy, money laundering, conspiracy to commit terrorism,
> conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to... [fill in the blank].  The BEST
> case scenario in the case that they wanted you badly enough (and doubtless
> this would happen in the example you cite) is that you turn states evidence,
> show them the best way to break or introduce a break/trojan into the system
> and fall into the pit of witness relocation, looking over your shoulder for
> the rest of your life wondering when the missing remnants of terrorist group
> X will come calling.  There is that other cute clause too.  "Material
> witness."  Oops.

Certainly a developer in this case has every incentive to publish
*every* known vulnerability immediately, simply to avoid this kind of
pressure.  Perhaps this would be an interesting general security
principle for full disclosure -- full disclosure to prevent being 
blackmailed.

Assuming arrest or questioning regardless, I don't see how the
probability of conviction on felony charges for simply writing
software to do bits is high enough to change anyone's actions.
Seizure of assets, arrest, etc. would definitely be enough to deter 
many people.

> > I would be annoyed by spending a year
> > in a federal jail, but it wouldn't seriously impact my life.
> 
> I submit that this belief indicates you've never seen the inside of a
> federal prison.  Remember also that terrorists don't go to Danbury.  They go
> to the Supermax in Colorado.  Also, most states have money laundering
> statutes too.  You'll be lucky not to do time in both a state and a federal
> prison during the course of your ordeal if things get nasty enough.

I think this is a risk/reward/accessibility thing.

If each component of a system is broken down into individual
components with some legal protection between layers, it's much
easier.

Anyone who could implement all of the pieces and operate them all is a
very small set.  These people would most likely face substantial risks
(if they break any law in the process, they could be convicted; and
simply an attempt at prosecution or even a civil lawsuit could be
crippling), and there would be little incentive for them to do so.

However, if each component is analyzed separately, it opens up a much
larger set of potential participants, and the risk/reward profile of
each is better.  Software development is about as risk free as
anything in the system; the reward is perhaps lower, but the level of
skill is relatively high compared to some of the operational actors, so that
increases the likely reward.

The highest risk components are also the least skill-intensive, and
could have effectively unbounded rewards (set by the market and
competition).  This is as it should be.  In drugs, high profits belong
to those who control monopoly assets, have large amounts of capital,
etc. ("high 'skill'"), and they are relatively low risk.  Highest
risks probably belong to individual street workers or couriers, which
are very low skill, but moderately high reward, depending on risk.

> 
> > Being convicted of a felony would be slightly more unpleasant, but not
> > substantially so -- not that I'm convinced there's much which would
> > stick.
> 
> Doesn't have to stick.  Why would you think it has to stick?  People are
> incarcerated on little or no evidence all the time, particular if they are
> involved in politically unpopular activities- otherwise totally legitimate.
> (No more guns for you either as a convicted felon).

Conviction, yes.  But you've not shown how software developers, or
indeed most of the participants, would be subject to anything but
civil or criminal-harassment, and it appears the balance of evidence
is that those who just develop software are unlikely to be convicted.

I personally would be far more unhappy with being arrested and
convicted immediately for 1 year, than arrested, held without trial or
conviction for 2 years, and then released.  This is why developing
software or hardware is more attractive to me than couriering drugs or money.

> Asset forfeiture can include garnishment.  That can last quite a while.  I
> doubt you want to be big enough a deal to be known by name to Ashcroft.  I'm
> sure it might be interesting to be a famous hacker a la Mitnick and bask in
> the glow of contraries rebellious reputation you'd gain among all 17 year
> old suburban males running a Morpheus supernode with all the albums of
> Metallica ever pressed.  I doubt its worth it.

Hah :)  "Hacker" is rather limiting.  Electronic cash, if it enhances
the underground economy, is far more meaningful politically than any
non-economic online activity like trading files. Of course, success in
this  is directly related to unpopularity with the government.

> > (I don't think just releasing code is productive, but I think there is
> > a code+limited deployment which would be productive, and is not
> > substantially more effort.  I think there are certain technical decisions
> > which must be made by an ecash system with some knowledge of how
> > things are done in practice, but there have been ~10 attempts at
> > developing such things in the past, with lots of info available by
> > talking to the developers or being involved.
> 
> Legal problems or not, and different members of this list will have
> different views about how realistic it is or isn't to be harassed over
> writing some code.  In the end it makes little difference.  The problem with
> ecash is that it doesn't do enough things significantly better than current
> solutions for a retail system.  It does some things much worse.  I've always
> believed that the best deployment would be in a interbank role, where
> clearing and settlement actually have important time components-
> counter-party credit, Herstatt risk, etc. and the sums are large enough to
> make small to moderate improvements in performance important.

I believe there are some applications for electronic cash which, if it
met certain minimal standards, would be sufficient to make it
self-supporting.  These applications are relatively free adopters of
new technologies, especially compared to financial institutions.
Gaming and pornography would be highly suitable, given recent actions
by credit card issuers, complete security failures by ccbill and
others, inherently high fraud rates, etc.

I don't think anyone has seriously proposed ecash as a retail
widespread purchasing system to compete with credit cards since the
mid 1980s.

Applications in equity markets are also interesting.  Micropayments
seem to be a waste of time, although there are some applications for
which they might be suitable (specifically, the "electronic postage
paid to recipient of email to read it, as a bond against spam" is one
of the most interesting ideas I've seen, and given the right software
and UI, could actually be interesting and worthwhile...I would put 2-3
months into it if there were a pre-existing electronic cash system to 
integrate)

There are numerous underground economy applications which are
interesting from both a market sense and a political one.

> > Mainly what is important
> > is to do as little work as possible...
>
> Coding is hard, let's go shopping?

Indeed, code or protocol re-use, elimination of complexity, etc. are
good for all software projects, especially "cypherpunk" ones.

> All this illustrates an important principal.  Secrecy and limited liability,
> by necessity, have a zero sum relationship.  As you increase secrecy you
> must decrease limited liability in step.  "Secret, Limited Liability,
> Successful, pick two."  The combination of limited (non-existent) liability
> and secrecy is simply an impossibility for a financial organization.  "A
> Small unknown and poorly financed firm" might as well be limited liability
> for our purposes- no one is going to see a dime back from it if it fails.
> Also, note that unlimited liability has a much stronger assurance quality.
> (See e.g., Enron, FDIC insurance for the failure of "disclosure" to properly
> compensate for limited liability or moral hazard).

This is a very very good point.

I am proposing separating pieces of a fielded system such that each
can have its own secrecy/limited liability profile (assuming they all
want to be successful).  Issuers, perhaps, can be of both kinds.
Software developers are, for the most part, non-secret, but limited
liability.  Change-makers can, through technical restraint, be
completely "open" in certain ways -- to make it clear that they must
make good on transactions -- and completely secret in others.
Markets, operators, etc. are fairly impotent to do anything outside
very limited technical tasks, which should be widely publicized.

I would argue that technical "code-based prohibition preemptively,
vs. prosecution after the fact", or "code not laws" is about the same
as "limited liability vs. secrecy" -- after all, isn't removal of
ability to do something a traditional way to reduce liability, as an 
insurer?

> Additionally, based on my experience doing business with cypherpunks there
> is no hope for "business credentials without identity" amongst those who
> should be the most receptive to it.  (The due diligence demands of
> cypherpunks I've encountered in the business world far exceed those I
> endured at the hands of European banking authorities).  Then again, perhaps
> the paranoia of cypherpunks types is better developed than that of European
> banking authorities.  (That could be taken many ways, depending on your view
> of European banking types).  I suspect that you might find that a small
> ecash project, which by its nature would appeal to cypherpunks as clear (and
> perhaps the only) first adopters will find that most cypherpunks "would not
> invest $1 of my own money in such a thing."  That should be all that needs
> to be said about the viability of a "small ecash project."
> 
> Perhaps one might make a distinction between the development of an ecash
> system and its deployment, but I doubt it will make much difference.  The
> basic tools of ecash have been floating about for some time.

The reason I'd be unwilling to invest any money (but not necessarily
time or other resources) into an ecash software development effort is
the "moral hazard" of externally-funded startups, as .  Perhaps it's
that I've seen some of the worst of the dotcom boom from California
and am still reacting to it.

I think the only productive ways to introduce external capital to
electronic cash would be:

* Providing non-divertable resources (computer time, office space,
etc.) to development efforts, perhaps based on progress.  While I
think 20 people making $200k/year in a luxury office in San Francisco
could easily waste $15m furnishing an office (12 Entrepreneuring...),
there are only so many cheap laptops, dormitory-grade accomodations,
and rackmounted servers you can use to enhance your quality of life; 1
Bentley is worth more than 80 Cutlasses.  If the funds
go to actual tools for the development of software, and are meager
enough to not be a desirable end in themselves, a lot of the apathy
hazard disappears.  Of course, the resources needed to develop this
are exceedingly modest.  It's easier for me to divert some of the
capital and facilities I have now to work on projects such as this
than to do anything else; office space, hardware, accomodations,
servers, etc. in the north sea cost me effectively nothing for even a 
moderately-sized development effort.  (until maybe September 2001,
though, my time has been very limited)

* Providing financial rewards based on public accomplishment of
milestones.  If there were funds which would be paid based on
"electronic cash included by default with shipping versions of MS IE",
only successful efforts would raise money.  I can put some money
toward this if anyone else wants to develop a system (although
specifying the winning conditions is complex).  Of course this does 
possibly put the funds of those providing the prize at risk.

One reason why I'd be reluctant to do this (plus that if I did it, it
would be on the scale of thousands or tens of thousands, which is
perhaps not sufficient motivation for anyone), is that "task market"
systems have all failed in the past.  This is different in that it is
more a "bounty" a la lindbergh or x-prize, vs. a generalized system.
However, coming up with a good external specification and judging for
this is more complex than the conditions for either of these
aeronautical feats.

* Ensure that once a system is developed, it can actually be deployed;
I'm sure amateur development efforts in ecash would have gone ahead
long ago if developers had not been concerned with deployment, legal
issues, etc.  If it were *just* a software development effort with a
defined deliverable, it's interesting to people with a different
risk/reward/skill profile than "develop this and maybe it will get
deployed, maybe it will be shut down by patents, maybe it will be shut
down by the authorities, maybe it will be used by enough users, maybe
you will get some reward."

The tools that exist today are beyond the ability of those with the
risk/reward/skill profile to be willing to use them to be able to use them.
Thus, there is no ecash deployed.  If ecash could be reduced to a
"push this button" level of skill, I believe at least one of each
necessary actor would find it within his risk/reward profile to
operate.  I certainly find it within my risk/reward profile do any but
not necessarily all of hosting ecash servers for others, run a trial 
currency as an issuer, participating as a user, operating a limited
market, and perhaps even acting as a change maker on an informal
basis. (but doing all of these is obviously poor).

> I submit that we should endeavor to find a motivator a bit more solid than
> that it would entertain the developers.  It sounds suspiciously as if you
> might need an entertainment center in your dot-com campus.  Entertainment
> for the developers is, of course, what the firm is in business for.  (From
> what I know of you that's a bit shocking to hear.  If that's all the case
> then just write the damn thing and distribute it via usenet, Mr. Lackey).

Well, in the split system, I think "writing code for entertainment
value only" could easily be sufficiently high motivation for one of
the many people who can develop such software to do so.  Certainly, it
has been in the past, for Pr0duct Cypher and others.  I believe if the
problem were reduced to *strictly* a "write code" one, ecash could be
developed as easily as any other fairly complex network/cryptographic
system which touches on finance -- more difficult, surely, than ssleay
or , but less difficult than an ERP system, and probably less complex
than NCSA Mosaic (given the right background).

Very few people participate in high-risk activities, even low
skill/capital ones, without being paid -- almost every drug dealer I
know is in it for financial reward (with some lsd/e/hallucinogen
dealers perhaps being more interested in political or social change).
In the system I propose, the high risk components are competitive and
compensated, other components are low risk with acceptable reward and
relatively low skill, but there unfortunately remain some low-risk,
high-skill, uncertain reward components, most specifically initial
development and stage-0 deployment of test systems.

The only motivation I can see which will actually be sufficient for
ecash software to be developed is if the developers find the exercise 
itself intellectually rewarding, and the potential consequences
worthwhile.  Ecash development is not a *rational* economic choice, at
least in terns of short term rewards.

Throwing money or toys at the problem is not going to
change this, as I may be overly cynical, but I think the probability
of a product goes down proportionate to the amount of money invested
over the bare minimum necessary; and for ecash that is $0.  (perhaps
the corollary is that those who could most easily develop ecash at
this point have "lack of ecash" costs as a substantial existing item,
and thus *could* spend up to that amount to develop it without causing
negative feedback; but this is a pretty tortured argument, there are
agency problems, etc.  Although, I suppose the cost to me personally
of not having ecash is in excess of USD 500k, in that havenco can
really only go public on an ecash-based market, and I can only easily
realize value from my equity through such an offering, discounted of
course for ecash deployment costs, risk, forgone value from private
sale, etc.)
  
If the probability of any individual developer finding
this to be sufficient reward is too low for one's taste, one should
attempt to increase the set of efforts which could possibly develop
the software.  Perhaps the dotcom collapse, by putting a lot of people
back onto the job market with uncertain prospects, will increase this
set; perhaps better programming environments which lower the skill
required to do cryptographic and network programming will do it;
perhaps the expiration of patents and dying down of patriotic hysteria
will reassure developers; perhaps legal analysis of the risks to pure
developers will lower it; perhaps high visibility persecution of p2p
systems, dmca-violating tools, etc. will motivate a new generation of
programmers; perhaps computer science education will improve.

(I personally find working on such software very interesting and
rewarding, even if it is destined to do nothing more than be a
published, working, but unused curiosity, but despite this, external 
circumstances have caused me to focus on "my real job" for much of the 
past year.  I'm quite happy to spend some of my spare time working on
such a system, and hope this spare time increases in the future, but I 
think there are some other, smaller, more easily accomplished and
deployed systems which I will release first -- mail and associated
utilities, perhaps a simple proxy, productization of some internal
management and automation tools, and thus the process will be a bit
slower than it could be.  If someone else were to develop a suitable
system first, it would save me quite a bit of effort, obviously, and I
could contribute what I have so far, but I'm not exactly holding my 
breath for this.)
-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




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From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Mon Dec 24 08:53:01 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 08:53:01 -0800
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable
  coward.RIP.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225041806.00a82570@pop.useoz.com>; from
  mattd@useoz.com on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 04:30:50AM +1100
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225041806.00a82570@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011224085301.K69909@neutraldomain.org>


		On Tue, Dec 25, at 04:30AM, mattd wrote:
| In simplest terms, anarchism stands against not just government, but all 
| forms of domination and exploitation. This includes government, but also 
| capitalism, landlordism, interest, and profit. 

Interesting to note that the system you bash, for the sake of
argument lets call it "timmayism" is really in favor of individual
freedom (Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe
you to be, given your writtings, please correct me) so things like
"domination", "exploitation", "profit", etc... are perfectly
acceptable so long as two people consentualy enter into an
agreement. The simple problem with what you are describing is that
is translates into "mattd decides whats is good for everyone else"
The very basic proof of this is that, given what you are writting,
if I enter into an agreement with Mr. May to rent his property, an
agreement I am perfectly acceptable to and that I am perfectly free
to decline to enter into; he is being an evil landlor-profiteer. I
am perfectly happy with the situation, but by your standards that
wasn't a "free" (your definition of free baffles me) exchange.

| In addition, anarchism 
| stands for decentralized direct democracy, free association, the 
| replacement of capitalist private property "rights" with possession/use 
| rights, direct worker ownership and control of the means of production, 
| direct action instead of political action, delegation instead of 
| representation, and total freedom (which is inherently limited by the 
| "other person's nose").

Hey! I think Lenin might like talking to you, knock on Stalin's door
too, since you just described communism.

| Anarchism is a variant of socialism 

an7ar7chism (nr-kzm)
n. 
The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive
and undesirable and should be abolished.  

so7cial7ism (ssh-lzm)
n. 
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which
the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively
or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the
economy. 

Pick one, stick to it. 

| Anarchism stands against capitalism, because capitalism is inherently 
| authoritarian. Those who say that capitalism is freedom, forget to say that 

cap7i7tal7ism (kp-tl-zm)
n. 
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution
are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate
to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free
market.

free market
n. 
An economic market in which supply and demand are not regulated or
are regulated with only minor restrictions.

Maybe your read on "free market" is different then mine, but I would
say a worker has as much right to not work at a company as the
employer has to not employ that worker if he chooses not to.


| Anarchism also stands against state socialism and "Communism," because 

Isn't this a little different than what you said earlier?

| Anarchism is a very often misunderstood political theory (not ideology, 

Hey, enlighten us, show us some background studies, show us some
legitimate writtings and test cases to prove what you say. I would
imagine I am not alone in thinking you are full of shit with nothing
to substantiate what you have to say. 

| because ideology means a fixed set of prescribed ideas that are 

Interesting that you should bring this up. We have seen nothing from
you that falls outside this category. In fact, we have seen nothing
from you that is worthwhile period. But since others might not know
this and because some of us feel bored, we respond. If you really
care about the topics you blab about, then get yourself away from
that computer you must spend hours upon hours in front of, get
yourself into a library and in a few years, come on out and lets
have intelligent discussions. Read up on different political ideas
and systems, different ideologies and pick the one you like best.
The impression one gets from reading what you write (other than,
what the fuck, this list used to have decent shit on it) is that you
have no idea what you are talking about, you musta picked up a
little pamplet somewhere that said "anarchy is cool, we bust up
stores in the name of freedom" and gone with it. If you are just
wasting our time here, which is the more likely explanation, then
well, I just hope you don't actually believe the shit you write,
there are plenty other stupid people in the world, it would have
been nice if this list didn't attract as many as it seems to. --Gabe




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Dec 24 00:00:14 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:00:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: PayPal for buying ecash
Message-ID: 


PayPal is a possible funding source for ecash/estamps/remailer-tokens
or whatever.  With a PayPal account you can receive funds and pay people,
two elementary steps for a cash-based system.  It is easy to set up web
software to receive payment via PayPal, and many people are already
in the system (it is the most widely used payment system for eBay).
Payments either go through the credit card clearing houses or via PayPal
itself, but merchants don't have to be aware of the difference, except
for the danger of reversed transactions.

There are plenty of horror stories on the web about PayPal, from such
sites as www.paypalsucks.com and www.paypalwarning.com.  Probably some
fraction of these are from pissed off scammers who got caught.

There appears to be a specific problem in the PayPal terms of service:

13.  No Cash Advances. You agree not to engage in behavior that could
     reasonably be construed as providing yourself a cash advance from
     your credit card, and agree not to assist Users who engage in
     behavior that could reasonably be construed as providing themselves
     a cash advance from their credit cards. Such behavior includes, but
     is not limited to, a User paying someone with a credit card-funded
     payment through the Service, then receiving the funds back from the
     original Recipient and attempting to withdraw the funds from their
     account. PayPal reserves the right to reverse all such transactions
     and to terminate any accounts that are associated with such behavior.

This kind of transaction could easily happen with an ecash-selling
service, if the ecash can be redeemed via PayPal.  Someone buys some ecash
with a credit card, cashes in the ecash for funds in his PayPal account,
and then withdraws the funds.  This would be an express violation of
the PayPal terms of service.

Besides this problem, there is the danger of reversed transactions.
Someone who buys ecash with a credit card can cancel the transaction for
any of several reasons, such as claiming that it was done via a stolen
credit card.  In that case PayPal makes the merchant (the ecash bank)
take the loss.

A competing service from Citibank is www.c2it.com.  It is relatively
new and does not have all of the conditions and limitations that
PayPal does.  The terms of service appear to be relatively generous.
Citibank is a big company so one might hope that they have gone over
the bases.  Still it is possible that if C2It catches on that Citibank
will eventually be forced to put in the same kinds of limitations that
PayPal has.

C2It also seems to be more oriented towards email and may not have
the shopping cart software that PayPal provides.  That could make it
harder to interface to C2It from a script.  Buying ecash will require at
least one data exchange for supplying blinded data and receiving coins,
independent of how the ecash is paid for.  If that data exchange is
separate from the email-based C2It payment transaction then there has
to be some key to link them together.  That will complicate the process
and introduce new possibilities for error.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec 24 09:00:18 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:00:18 -0800
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable
  coward.RIP.
In-Reply-To: <20011224085301.K69909@neutraldomain.org>
Message-ID: 


On Monday, December 24, 2001, at 08:53 AM, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

> 		On Tue, Dec 25, at 04:30AM, mattd wrote:
> | In simplest terms, anarchism stands against not just government, but 
> all
> | forms of domination and exploitation. This includes government, but 
> also
> | capitalism, landlordism, interest, and profit.
>
> Interesting to note that the system you bash, for the sake of
> argument lets call it "timmayism" is really in favor of individual
> freedom (Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe
> you to be, given your writtings, please correct me)

Yeah, I favor freedom and free markets. Obviously.

Something I _don't_ favor is wasting time responding to weird rants like 
the ones from "mattd."

The expression "get back on your medications" is sometimes overused on 
the Net, but in this case it clearly applies. This "mattd" person 
oscillates from fawning about "crypto anarchy" to foaming that people 
like me should be hanged. All written in an illiterate, pseudo-dyslexic, 
run-on sentence, crude imitation of John Young.

I have yet to see a single idea come out of "mattd."

There are more interesting fish to fry.


--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec 24 09:35:14 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:35:14 -0800
Subject: Simplest possible ecash mint
In-Reply-To: <2c4a75cf8f4f711baac94cdb488acf04@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <96F775BE-F894-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, December 24, 2001, at 12:40 AM, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> How simple can an ecash mint be?
>
> For the simplest case there should be no accounts.  All the mint does is
> exchange coins for other coins.  There are no customer lists, no records
> of transactions (except as needed for double-spending detection).
>
> The very simplest mint is a pure ecoin changer.  You give it a coin and
> it gives you a new one in return.  It checks that the coin you gave it 
> is
> valid and has not been spent before.  You also supplied blinding factors
> so that the new coin you get is blinded and will not be recognized by
> the mint when spent later.

This is a terribly important point. Implementing this "atomic 
transaction" would be a major step. Having a Web site that does this 
EVEN WITH PLAY TOKENS would be a useful step. (Many dislike toy 
applications, but a site which did this would be a way to play with the 
software, test the reliability, and get ideas for further developments. 
The "Play Tokens" would be of literally no value, ostensibly.)

>
> By itself, this trivial mint can support a transaction system, and in
> principle a whole economy.  For Alice to pay Bob, she gives him coins.
> Bob exchanges them at the mint for new coins, thereby checking that they
> are good.  End of transaction.  Bob can spend his new coins elsewhere,
> unlinkable to the exchange.

Like a cellular automata, the basic rules dramatically affect future 
evolutionary paths.

With the proper atomic transaction protocols, the rest unfolds naturally.

Money changers can profit by returning some fraction (e.g., 0.99) of 
what they are given.

>
> The mint does not even have to be involved in transfers between ecash
> and other forms of payment.  This is one of the things the e-gold people
> got right.  They outsourced in- and out-transactions.  You go to any of
> dozens of coin dealers, currency services, shady operators of all 
> stripes,
> to get money into or out of your e-gold account.  The same thing would
> work here.  Third parties would offer to buy or sell ecash for dollars,
> grams of gold, hi grade cocaine, etc.
>
> As described, this mint has a constant money supply.  There is neither
> creation nor destruction of coins.  In practice there would be slow
> destruction due to occasional losses of data.  This could lead to very
> slow deflation, or the mint could be adjusted to slightly inflate the
> currency in order to compensate for this effect.


--Tim May


"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize 
Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of 
conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are 
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 24 01:38:01 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:38:01 +0000
Subject: simplest possible ecash mint
Message-ID: <20011224093801.GA2440@atreides.havenco.com>


Actually, I think to be practical you want something only
slightly more complex; 3x as much work, but 100x as useful.

Implemented in tamper-resistant hardware (a dedicated box or process
could substitute, but hardware is easier, and I have plenty):

stage 1:
* Some protocol for external communication (direct sockets is easiest,
  but message-based protocols are far better, and allow a front end
  processor to handle communications details)
* Reissue operation (powers of two coins; so you can pay with 1 x 2 coin
  and get 2 x 1 coins back)
* A clock (decent rate RNG or PRNG is useful too, obviously)
* A double spending database maintained internally
* Two account counters maintained internally: treasury and float
* "Signed float": tell anyone who asks exactly how much has been
   issued, signed as the mint.
* A means of increasing or decreasing the treasury value, after
  authentication, and ideally an internal log of these changes (which
  could be published as well, signed)
* Key management functionality (signing keys generated onboard; some
  kind of hierarchy so non-coins can be linked to coins)
* Ability to publish a description of some sort of the coins
* Power switch

This is great for a single currency on a single mint managed by a
single person.  There are several other refinements which can be added
over time which are meaningful:

* Seamlessly supporting multiple currencies on a single issuer, with
separate keys and managers

* Replication/distribution, for reliability and performance (obvious 
techniques)

* Means of programmatically linking treasury and float -- the box
opens its own remote account of some sort, or holds other electronic
instruments, and issues only up to that amount.

* Multi-user management interface to the mint, so a large company can
authorize a day manager to make small transactions, larger changes
requiring seniority or multiple users.

* Backup/recovery methods

* Scheduled key rollovers

* Misc. transports (handled by a front end processor and load
balancer; initially I'm using sockets, but I want to use email before 
releasing stage 1)


There really is NOT a huge amount of complexity.  I've done 3 separate
"stage 1" systems to about 80%, but using the chaum protocol.  To be
interesting, you would probably want agility on the underlying
cryptographic basis, including brands, wagner, chaum, client-side
blinding variants, unblinded when there are no variants, trivial
non-blinded non-crypto, and any other systems.

Writing a mint to stage 1 is maybe a month worth of work.  The
complexity is in developing a client library, library API, UI, and
integration into applications.

The easiest way I see to solve that is something I call a "hosted
wallet" -- a multiuser wallet, communicating with the user over SSL,
and using the ecash protocols to interact with the mint.  Any user
*could* run a hosted wallet server, but there is no client software
which MUST be installed.  Thus satisfying both security and ease of
use.  This is also vastly easier to develop than a client-side wallet,
at least for me -- html UI, much much easier than any of the unix or
windows widget sets, inherently crossplatform, etc.

I hope to have a mint and a wallet to demo at codecon in mid-feb in
sf, stage 1.  (which is why it was scheduled then, anyway)

I need about 60-120 more hours of actual productive work
to do so. (I'd like to have at least two ecash protocols implemented,
although at present I have "non-blinded dumb tokens" for testing, and
some non-integrated blinded code)

Ideally, I'd like it to be as easy to use as web-based mail; indeed,
integrating into a web-based mail UI might make sense for some demo
person to person payments.

This is really useful for absolutely nothing but testing.  All
practical applications require a much greater level of integration
with clients.  All interesting applications require multiple
currencies and a market.  Any level of interest at all from the public
will require an easy way to buy into the system using one or more
existing payment methods, which is something I've looked into with
high priority for the past 3 months, primarily from a gaming
background, but there's nothing to prevent people from playing with
the system itself before then.  Might as well start from day 1 with
real separation of roles, at least in name.

(one might note there are worthwhile conferences every 1-2 months from
now until september...)
-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Dec 24 00:40:21 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:40:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Simplest possible ecash mint
Message-ID: <2c4a75cf8f4f711baac94cdb488acf04@dizum.com>


How simple can an ecash mint be?

For the simplest case there should be no accounts.  All the mint does is
exchange coins for other coins.  There are no customer lists, no records
of transactions (except as needed for double-spending detection).

The very simplest mint is a pure ecoin changer.  You give it a coin and
it gives you a new one in return.  It checks that the coin you gave it is
valid and has not been spent before.  You also supplied blinding factors
so that the new coin you get is blinded and will not be recognized by
the mint when spent later.

By itself, this trivial mint can support a transaction system, and in
principle a whole economy.  For Alice to pay Bob, she gives him coins.
Bob exchanges them at the mint for new coins, thereby checking that they
are good.  End of transaction.  Bob can spend his new coins elsewhere,
unlinkable to the exchange.

The mint does not even have to be involved in transfers between ecash
and other forms of payment.  This is one of the things the e-gold people
got right.  They outsourced in- and out-transactions.  You go to any of
dozens of coin dealers, currency services, shady operators of all stripes,
to get money into or out of your e-gold account.  The same thing would
work here.  Third parties would offer to buy or sell ecash for dollars,
grams of gold, hi grade cocaine, etc.

As described, this mint has a constant money supply.  There is neither
creation nor destruction of coins.  In practice there would be slow
destruction due to occasional losses of data.  This could lead to very
slow deflation, or the mint could be adjusted to slightly inflate the
currency in order to compensate for this effect.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec 24 09:41:43 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:41:43 -0800
Subject: "Shoes for industry!"
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <7EA58623-F895-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Monday, December 24, 2001, at 04:45 AM, measl at mfn.org wrote:

> This just gets better and better...
>
> "Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration announced Sunday all
> U.S. airports are required to add random shoe checks of passengers to 
> the
> already established practice of random baggage checks."
>

"Shoes for industry!"

The general point is that it is going to be very difficult to stop 
persons willing to die in their acts from carrying them out. Planes are 
very fragile things and explosives can be formed into ordinary-looking 
objects (cases of computers, coffee mugs, belt buckles, etc.) and with 
very little vapor emission (smell).

Chemical timers even let bombers get away (acid eating through something 
in a sealed ampoule...).

An attacker who opens an aircraft emergency door in flight could also do 
a lot of damage (to the airline and travel industry, if nothing else).

Fact is, soft targets abound.

There are solutions, but not necessarily the police state measures now 
unfolding. We talked about this a lot after 911.


--Tim May
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third 
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're 
around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Dec 24 10:11:27 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 10:11:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Simplest possible ecash mint
In-Reply-To: <96F775BE-F894-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net> from "Tim
  May" at Dec 24, 2001 09:35:14 AM
Message-ID: <200112241811.fBOIBRg22427@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Tim writes:

> This is a terribly important point. Implementing this "atomic 
> transaction" would be a major step. Having a Web site that does this 
> EVEN WITH PLAY TOKENS would be a useful step. 

There used to be a little toy server run by Software Agents at
www.netbank.com.  It exchanged something called NetCash which had
the following format.

NetCash US$ 10.00 A123456B789012C

You could mail the server encrypting with its public key, and it would
send you back the results encrypted with any password you specified.

The server could do a number of simple things, like exchange tokens for
new ones, make change, combine a bunch of tokens into a single one, and
check tokens for validity.  You could deposit tokens and they would mail
you a check, or you could mail them a check, and they would issue tokens.

It was a cute little system, restricted to amounts under $100, and got
some use by BBS systems which accepted the tokens to pay for a
subscription.

Anyone remember this?

It apparently folded, and netbank.com is now a real bank.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Dec 24 09:57:02 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:57:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable  , coward.RIP.
In-Reply-To: <20011224085301.K69909@neutraldomain.org>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

> Interesting to note that the system you bash, for the sake of
> argument lets call it "timmayism" is really in favor of individual
> freedom (Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe
> you to be, given your writtings, please correct me) so things like
> "domination", "exploitation", "profit", etc... are perfectly
> acceptable so long as two people consentualy enter into an
> agreement.

Actually there are several different sorts of 'individualism', Tim's only
being one of them. What is worth noting is the consideration that folks
like Hayek give the sort of 'rudded individualism' that Tim promotes.

They're against it.

Individualism and Economic Order
"1. Individualism: True and False"
F.A. Hayek
ISBN 0-226-32093-6


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 24 10:02:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:02:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable  , coward.RIP.
In-Reply-To: <20011224085301.K69909@neutraldomain.org>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

> | Anarchism is a variant of socialism 
> 
> an7ar7chism (nr-kzm)
> n. 
> The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive
> and undesirable and should be abolished.  

Which is self-referential (it basically says that even anarchism will
oppress).

> so7cial7ism (ssh-lzm)
> n. 
> Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which
> the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively
> or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the
> economy. 
> 
> Pick one, stick to it. 

Which raises an interesting question. How do you get everyone to behave
the same way with the same levels of consideration under anarchism
without some sort of universal standard (a central organization)? Who gets
to decide it? What happens if somebody decides they don't want to play
nice? How do you pay for it?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 24 10:04:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:04:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable  , coward.RIP.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Yeah, I favor freedom and free markets. Obviously.

Just so long as it doens't involve any of that homo- stuff... like two
people of the same sex kissing in public...

Or, while you get to read and post as you see fit, they conform to your
considerations of relevancy with regard to submissions...

Which face is that again?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 23 18:13:05 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:13:05 +1100
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224124444.00a782c0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Is it a lie to neglect to mention that Adolf Hitler was kind
to dogs? Or that Stalin was courageous and did well in
school? Or that there were lots of women that Jeffrey Dahmer
did not torture, kill, and eat?<<

True,everyone has some good points.even you,measl and timothy"Dahmer"May.

 >>It is certainly true that
all sorts of nice people had all sorts of good intentions in
Catalonia, but when they attempted to implement those good
intentions, they mostly found themselves using the old
familiar methods of recently existent socialism,<<

The popularly elected govt was under attack from a falangist,military 
coup,Its worth close study from the beginning and to get the clearest 
picture read widely."Objectivity and liberal scholarship's",a good place to 
start.Also "homage to Catalonia"by george Orwell.There were some exciting 
developments and they weren't "implemented"so much as arose 
spontaneously.The stalinists found themselves using old familiar 
methods.The libertarian socialists kicked butt.

 >>and when
they did not use those methods, socialism did not work. That
is the important truth about Catalonia, <<

Libertarian socialism did work,see Gaston Leval,Bookchin,Paz,Chomsky and 
even H.Thomas.Stalinism,or authoritarian socialism did not work.The 
important truth about Catalonia is Libertarian socialism did work and will 
again,shortly,work.

 >>and all the other
truths, the truths that some people were sincere, the truths
that some people had good intentions, are irrelevant. I do
mention those truths, briefly. Unlike the sources you prefer
I do not go into lengthy spiels describing those wonderful
good intentions while ignoring the actual outcome. <<

I'm not attracted to libertarian socialism by sincere and good 
intentions.I'm attracted to it because it holds the best hope of maximizing 
my freedom and limiting violence.The intentions and sincerity of any 
political movement are secondary concerns.I simply want to know what's in 
it for me.The close study of what real people do in real revolutionary 
periods is very revealing.You should try it sometime.Chomsky and Orwell are 
quite brief and to the point.I trust them on Spain.




From k20619 at inbox.ru  Mon Dec 24 11:43:00 2001
From: k20619 at inbox.ru (k20619 at inbox.ru)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:43:00 -0500
Subject: Improve The Reliability Of Windows With This Product                         23233
Message-ID: <0000326e7d01$000038c2$00005ac1@k.ro>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 23 19:47:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:47:10 +1100
Subject: Deconstructing Timothy.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224131516.00a7a100@pop.useoz.com>


 >>I'd rather see a company starting on a shoestring, with surplus desks 
from Repo Depot, with crowded offices, and with no money wasted on 
frivolities. Especially if I'm an investor!<<

And you'd probably be wasting your money cos good code needs quiet private 
reasonably pleasant surroundings.Not digbert cubicles run by simon legree.

 >>(I faced a similar choice in 1974: some of the places I was considering 
were known for their lavish expense accounts, their nice offices. Other 
places were more spartan (that's a good word to think about). I chose one 
of the spartan places, Intel. A lot of those other companies I could have 
gone to went nowhere.)<<

Yes we all know how much you prefer Sparta to Athens.Arbeit macht frei.

 >>This applies to marketdroids as well. Startup companies get larded-up 
with marketing departments when there is little to market. The huges staffs 
of some of the companies we all know about is an example. (Just as bad: the 
hiring of ex-government officials, regulators, etc. But I digress.) <<

 >YAWN<

 >>I agree and disagree. I agree that the core crypto is sort of 
established. However, how many examples of it do we see? Few. How many of 
the programmers here on this list (there must be a few dozen who call 
themselves programmers, professionally) have ever implemented anything 
remotely similar to digital cash? (I don't call myself a programmer, but I 
fool around. The closest I have come to the above is when about 10 years 
ago I wrote a simple RSA implementation in Mathematica, just to make sure I 
had all the "Euler totient function" kind of crapola down straight.) <<

More drivel,Tim getting senile? The ronnie raygun of the cypherpunk pantheon?

 >>PayPal took off pretty fast. So did VISA and MasterCard in their day. I 
think and hope someone will cut through all of the b.s. and do something 
that takes off. As I mentioned a few days ago, one of the reasons we wanted 
to have a session on "implementing digital money" was to brainstorm these 
issues. Maybe we should try again. By the way, if "lots of people can turn 
the algorithm into reliable code," where _are_ the implementations? I see 
bits and pieces. <<

I see dead people.Especially people like timmy.

 >>I don't think things happen because of "evangelists." Evangelists didn't 
give us the transistor, the IC, the microprocessor, the early personal 
computers, or even the Mac (where Apple was famous for hiring 
"evangelists," e.g., Guy Kawasaki). Discussing this would require a longer 
article here than I'm interested in writing. To be sure, advertising 
BankAmericard (VISA) and other credit cards was and is a big business. 
People have to know a technology exists and then want to use it. 
Evangelizing digital cash, when no real digital cash implementation exists, 
is getting things backwards. <<

Bollocks and stale to boot.Not the 1st time tims got things ass about 
though.(can provide examples on request.)

 >>Lucky can tell us what the real level of technology was. My impression 
is that it was a cleaned-up version of Chaum's earlier code (or the code of 
his early 90s programmers, that is) and did "uninteresting" things. And 
since it wasn't payee-untraceable, interesting uses for trading banned 
materials were not possible. (My recollection, though I could be wrong, was 
that Mark Twain Bank also had the usual ISP-like junk about acceptable uses 
and how accounts could be cancelled for "inappropriate uses.") A lot of 
these applications are just "toy uses." Not even the True Believers, most 
of us, <<

Ahem,True believers? The next steps,evangelists.Shurley some mishtake.

 >>would waste our time and money opening a Mark Twain Bank account so we 
could flash our account cards, or whatever, at local parties and meetings. 
I don't know of anyone, besides Lucky, who ever used the system. It is 
true, and we've talked about it many times, that most people don't care 
about anonymity and untraceability.<<

They are even taking the "let it all hang out' road with APster! and 
flashing more than account cards!

  >>They don't care that their "Fast Pass" turnpike passes can (and 
sometimes are) be used to track their movements, to find out when they were 
on the New Jersey Turnpike and which exit they got off at. 99.9984% of them 
figure no one will bother to check. So the market for Chaumian ecash for 
car passes never materialized. A big part of the problem is the lack of 
evolutionary learning. <<

Is that when you learn the meaning of the basic words you use,like 
'anarchy',ferinstance?

 >>This is a problem with our patent system, especially for software. A 
number of years ago I wrote an article about how patents for hardware work 
because the produced good "meters" the patent: no one cared what uses were 
made of the microprocessor because every sale was a sale, thus paying for 
all of the various R&D and patents and so for the chip companies. With 
software (*), there is much concern about what uses are made. Because of 
replicability of the product. (* I don't mean a software product like 
Microsoft Office. It is true that no one cares what use is made of a copy 
of Office, provided it was legitimately bought. I mean software like "RSA," 
where sale of a general license has to be very carefully planned.) Because 
Chaum wished to make money (not an ignoble goal), he limited access to the 
core of his system. (Whatever you want to call it, the algorithms, the 
implementations, the ability of others to build products, etc.) There were 
a series of "future by design" projects, but little evolutionary learning. 
(Contrast to the aircraft or chip businesses, where hundreds of companies 
failed, planes crashed, new designs were tried, patents were cross-licensed 
or bought, companies rose and fell, products proliferated...) It's not easy 
to build a company around an algorithm.<<

Or a reputation on blithering blather,Its like cypherpunk elevator muzak 
isnt it?

  RSA succeeded, but it faced years of shoestring operation troubles (I 
visited their crowded offices in Redwood Shores, circa 1990-1). And it had 
arguably the most important patent portfolio of all. (Levy's "Crypto" 
details the history, and the almost out of business experiences.) I see way 
too many Cypherpunks jabbering about "raising money." Most don't.<<

I dont see enough cypherpunks raising money to have this embarrassment put 
down,but its early days.

 >> It's time for a return to the older models. > <<

Like Operation soft drill,BUMs and K.I.S.S ferfucksake.

 > >Getting the real thing working requires real marketing skills <>See 
above. I doubt a marketing group makes a hill of beans' worth of difference. <<

Tims opinions are definitely worth a large hill o'beans.

 >>> and being in the right place at the right time; occasionally >> you can hit it off, like the kid who wrote WinAmp and was pressured > 
by his parents into making it Shareware and not just freeware, > or the 
Hotmail folks causing the free-web-based-email wave > (and catalyzing many 
of the appallingly stupid Dot-Com Business Plans.) <

We saw a lot of appallingly-stupid Cypherpunks Business Plans, too. <<

And the appallingly stupid adoption of crypto-anarchy instead of 
cyber-liberty.Whoops.

 >>"And then at this point the world adopts the use of Bearer Bucks (TM) 
and we get 2% of every transaction!" >

Anarcho-capitalism would never encourage such lunacy,right timmy?

 >>> Perhaps one advantage of the dot-com crash is that people starting > 
businesses today are much more likely to do the solid business planning > 
and the initial technical decisions before they get enough > funding to 
leave the garage and hire the 200 programmers that > it takes to prevent 
any real work from being done while you're > having meetings to coordinate 
development of the hot-tub-scheduling > website.
Yep. Premature commercialization, mythical man-month, burn rates, and all 
that. <<

Wisdom from on high,take notes,cypherpunks.Tim may not be with us 
forever.(It just seems like it sometimes)

 >>> But if you're not going to use the marketdroids, you have to find > 
some really solid alternative to get the stuff widely used. I'll say it 
again: the best commercialization is done for stolen products. <<

And words,see mattd's posts on how I stole the word "anarchy."I'm TM master 
Thief!

 >>(Or, to head off frivolous charges that I am libeling Sun or Cisco, 
below, products which were basically already developed and faced a ready 
market.) The Stanford University Network (SUN) machines were largely ready 
to go when the founders of Sun (gee, where'd they get that name?) sought 
permission (and investment) from Stanford to commercialize them. Ditto for 
Len and Sandy's work at Stanford on routers. This is how Sun and Cisco were 
able to "hit the ground running." They didn't squander precious startup 
dollars on roof-top jacuzzis and meeting rooms for researchers to sit 
around trying to develop a product. Investment money went into production 
facilities, wire-wrap guns, etc. Even RSA was basically just 
commercializing an already-extant thing. Intel was making and selling 
actual products within 6 months of its formation. (It did _not_ get funding 
and then sit around in opulent surroundings thinking about future 
directions. In a way, it also "stole" its technology, in that its founders 
had worked on silicon-gate MOS at Fairchild and knew how to get rolling 
quickly. I'm not accusing Intel of stealing in any prosecutable sense, but 
in the sense that this is the way evolutionary learning happens:<<

May I interject some Proudon at this point: "Property is Theft"

  >>the children of successes create more successes.) By contrast, I've 
watched dozens of companies (some of them started and staffed by my 
friends) raise some seed capital and _then_ begin their research and 
development! Bad move. For lots of reasons I could write about for hours. 
(Xanadu and AMIX were examples, several Cypherpunks startups are other 
examples.) (Nutshell: research proceeds unevenly. Breakthroughs. 
Evolutionary learning. Dead-ends. <<

Anarcho-capitalism,racism,fascism,ayn Rand,robert Heinlein,Gun nuts and 
militia wackos,sexism,Libertianism,etc.Yep.

Redirections. "Exploitation of rich veins of ore," punctuated equilibrium, 
time value of money. When a company gets investment money, it _must_ begin 
to use that money _immediately_. Ideally, for production facilities, for 
actual product advertising, for _immediate_ uses. The time value of money 
dictates this. It _cannot_ use its money to hire people to sit around and 
think about future research directions. If there is not a _real_ business 
plan (I don't mean a "spreadsheet business plan") with a real revenue 
stream beginning _soon_, why form a company?<<

Why indeed,become a true anarchist name.Corporations wont last 5 minutes 
without the state to back them up.

  >>A lot of naive people seem to think the capital markets exist to help 
them fund their dreams, their vague ideas about becoming the next Bill 
Gates. Maybe the recent dot com collapse has changed things.) There _is_ a 
place for "service businesses." ISPs, for example. (The founders of ZKS 
made their initial money by setting up a successful ISP in Canada and then 
selling it when the great wave of ISP consolidations was cresting. 
Interestingly, some of the early remailer operators in Holland did 
something very similar, selling their ISP business. Looks like this was the 
real way to make some money. No exotic cutting-edge technology, just paying 
customers.) There's a saying that "the best is the enemy of the good." This 
is part of the long debate in computer science between "doing the right 
thing" and "doing what works." The "Right Thing" is the elegant, the 
crystalline, the pure. "What Works" is the crufty, the cobbled-together. 
LISP versus Perl, perhaps. Richard Gabriel has some fun essays along the 
lines of "Worst is Best" (use Google to find them), discussing why the 
workstation and language market developed in the way it did. In our 
community (and related orbiting communities), "the cool is the enemy of the 
good." Hence we see multi-year efforts to the really cool implementation of 
hypertext developed, thus running out of money and missing the boat on the 
Web. (Xanadu.) Ditto for digital cash, as comparatively low-tech and uncool 
products like PayPal move in to take the low-hanging fruit. Paying people 
to sit around and dream about rilly, rilly cool products is the kiss of 
death. <<

Oh death! Where is thy sting? Why is this bore still breathing?Will no one 
rid me of this turgid capitalist priest?

 >>Lastly, the focus on commercialization has been very weird these past 
several years. Nearly everyone jabbers about how to make money off of 
remailers, or data havens, or digital money. But little in the way of new 
ideas are being discussed here. <<

Anarcho-capitalism had nothing to with this and neither did I,Im TM 
crypto-anarchist.

 >>Our last Cypherpunks meeting was refreshing in that we had a couple of 
good talks on real things and very little of the "lawyer" and "startup 
evangelizing" junk. And we ended with a heated discussion of remailers and 
such, which Len and Steve and others have been writing about. <<

Len and Steve may still have something new to say,Im sucking wind and have 
been for years.

 >>Even more lastly, you folks out there thinking about how to do a startup 
or make money should be thinking about what I said, and which I am certain 
is basically correct: start up companies are not the place to do basic R&D. 
That's the place for universities and for established companies (with the 
companies either spinning-off divisions or selling the products themselves 
or losing their staff who "steal" the work). The cost of money is just too 
high for anyone to fund blue sky dreamers. Except as charity. (I can't 
resist: Look at Interval Research. Paul Allen, who has almost as much money 
as Bill Gates, decided to try to replicate the success of Xerox PARC and 
funded Interval Research some years ago (around '92-'93, IIRC). He gave it 
a wad of money, they set up shop, they hired Brenda Laurel and Lee 
Felsenstein and all kinds of other bright thinkers and dreamers. What came 
out of it? Nothing. Nada. Nil.) --Tim May <<

You folks,you anarch-capitalists should listen to me.The cost of money is 
to high.Milton Friedmans probably to blame.

 >>"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone 
with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later 
convinces himself." -- David Friedman <<

Tim,(and david) don't even believe their own 
arguments.See.http://world.std.com/~mhuben/leftlib.html
And...http://world.std.com/~mhuben/ddfr.html

I guess Tim still loves capitalism to death,He just has to bash her sometimes.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 23 20:11:03 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:11:03 +1100
Subject: Hillary style health plan to save US 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224145634.00a7bd80@pop.useoz.com>


 >>I'm boosting 2 things here that on > the surface may seem anathema to 
anarchists.IDs for all and socialized > medicine.Am I wrong to?
  You sure as hell are. This is the source of the power of the State: 
popular demand for its services. <<

Thanks for clearing that up.I thought it was the enormous militarized 
systems of oppression/repression.And theres a demand for ID's?I had no idea.

 >>AP all the politicians and bureaucrats, and it would be those like 
yourself who assert entitlement to government benefits who would be 
stumbling over each other to erect new politicians and bureaucrats in order 
to provide those services.<<

Actually Id be down to the selfmanaged metalstorm factory to work and 
studying flying part-time.(Im not supposed to fly a plane at the moment) 
Its nice someone else here believes in APster,thanks.

 >>AP all the self-righteous claimants to entitlements, like yourself, and 
the State would dry up and blow away.<<

True,jim seems to anticipate this with the car thieves scenario.No reason 
it couldn't apply to welfare Queens.The state needs to be shown that its 
powerless against APster.Im volunteering to die,just be careful that I'm 
really dead.Sandy Sandfort see's a way to rip off the APsters here.I think 
he should be APped.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 23 20:34:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:34:47 +1100
Subject: Agent Faustines list
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224152512.00a79940@pop.useoz.com>


We are grateful to agent faustine for her list of collaborators,copies of 
"assassination politics' and possibly(not by me)
anthrax/plutonium/unabombs will be in the post,soon,real soon.Females 
working in these places may have their heads shaved.The males will all 
die.Have a very carlyle christmas.Santa's INSLAW way.I PROMIS 
you.Halliburton new year.

"Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through the
spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax system,
through even more direct applications of the right tools at the right times.
When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.TM.

Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold 




From popkin at nym.alias.net  Mon Dec 24 07:40:59 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 24 Dec 2001 15:40:59 -0000
Subject: Hillary style health plan to save US
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011222005114.00a75e20@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011224154059.20271.qmail@nym.alias.net>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 23 23:06:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:06:56 +1100
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224175457.00a3a2d0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Gaston
Leval,Bookchin,Paz,Chomsky and
 > even H.Thomas.

Commie liars, except for Thomas, who does not say what you
claim he does.

Ahwell! Still if you want to lump stalinists,trots and anarchs together 
thats OK.Its a free country. Mind you don't get shot for being a 
crypto-anarchist though and if your red triangle fades to pink,don't come 
crying to me.Id still luv to keep this thread going, I get a picture of Tim 
May as Amon Goethe whenever I see the heading.)Ill also be sure and ask all 
my anarchist mates if we cant do better next time at 
http://www.infoshop.org/ and http://www.ainfos.ca/A-Infos/




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 23 23:42:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:42:01 +1100
Subject: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash
  developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).  
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224182516.00a76310@pop.useoz.com>


Dear Ryan,Should you need a hudsucker proxy on another island,Im so 
cheap,Im free.
On the question of legal proceedings,never plead guilty,(horace 
Rumpole.)Plead defence of necessity and ultra vires.
Also Insanity by reason of excess alcohol,twinkies,prozac,etc 
consumption.Blame Kanada.
Economic realities may be safely handled by issuing more transparent e-cash 
until break even.Collapse of govts is assured by the rapid exponential 
growth of hawala style service.Should you be nuked the end should be quick 
and painless.
The authorities probably wont hassle you as they would be fearful of 
publicizing such a potent threat to their very existence.
Should sandline threaten you just threaten them back with APster.Remember 
nelson mandelas words at his trial.
I should like to live for a world where remailers save the world for 
freedom,this is cause that I should struggle to live for and if necessary 
will die for.The whole wired worlds watching.Yours in solidarity and 
crypto-anarchy,mattd aka proffr1.

Everyone a remailer,everyone a mint,everyone an APster.




From adam at homeport.org  Mon Dec 24 15:59:10 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:59:10 -0500
Subject: "Swiss bank in a box"
In-Reply-To: <8C0CF83C-F720-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <20011222142951.A13383@weathership.homeport.org>
  <8C0CF83C-F720-11D5-BE2B-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011224185910.A20153@weathership.homeport.org>


On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 01:12:02PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
| On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 11:29 AM, Adam Shostack wrote:
| 
| > On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:21:27PM -0800, Len Sassaman wrote:
| > |
| > | In conclusion, I leave you with a question: if remailer users are 
| > reduced
| > | to a small number of high-paying remailer customers for whom 
| > anonymity is
| > | not a game, but a matter of life or death, could a mix-net be made to
| > | provide any sufficient degree of security? "No" is the easy answer. 
| > Say
| > | yes, and prove it.
| >
| > No.  If your anonymity set is small, then using the system calls
| > attention to you, and your adversary can simply attack all the users
| > with physical layer attacks (bugged keyboards, video cameras in
| > ceilings, tempest, etc.).  Further, if the user set is small you're
| > probably more concerned with unobservability than with unlinkability
| > or untracability.
| 
| 
| Likewise, if only a small number of people are using Swiss banks, or Yap 
| stone wheels, or nearly any other particular financial instrument then 
| the anonymity set is too small. It's not too hard to know who is 
| spending that Yap stone wheel.

Yes, but I found it suprising to realize that the number of people who 
need to use a Swiss bank for it to be private is much smaller than the 
number who use a remailer.  (In addition, Swiss banks have natural
cover traffic provided by the ever-efficient local Swiss.)

Survielling a bank is more expensive than a remailer, and a bank will
not tend to have an 'upstream ISP' where all patrons of the bank,
wearing tags, can be identified.

| I say "nearly" because gold, say, has some nice physical properties 
| which things like currency notes, bank accounts, diamonds, etc. don't 
| have: gold can be melted and all traces of origin lost, save for some 
| expensive tinkering with isotopic ratios, maybe. Note that I am not 
| advocating gold, and especially not E-Gold, just noting facts.)
| 
| A lot of the complaints we see about cryptographic implementations of 
| things are also echoed in the real world. It's unreasonable to expect 
| crypto to solve all problems. To emphasize this point: When we hear 
| about limitations on the privacy of remailers or digital cash 
| implementations, we should think about comparable situations with 
| ordinary mail, ordinary currency, etc. A  lot of systems seemingly fail! 
| The fact that we continue to use them, because they are embedded in a 
| larger system (of reputations, ontological speed bumps, etc.) tells us 
| that crypto is only a part of the overall picture. Too many crypto folks 
| find flaws and declare the whole approach dead.

This is absolutely correct, and Ryan's points about latency mattering
a great deal to users are also bang-on.


| On Len's earlier point, DC Nets are the answer. The 1992 design for 
| "envelopes within envelopes remailers" is just the 1981 Chaumian 
| untraceable e-mail. He knew even then that it was subject to the types 
| of attacks described above. Hence the DC Net. A huge amount of stuff is 
| available on DC Nets, on the Web, in the CP archives, in the literature 
| (Crypto and Eurocrypt Proceedings, esp. by Chaum, Pfitzmann, etc.).
|
| Even with DC Nets, the concern is immediately one of "collusion sets" 
| (or "compromised sets," if the FBI/FinCEN/NSA have instrumented nodes).
|
| By the way, the attack that Adam describes, of the attacker placing 
| video cameras and monitoring devices, is not inexpensive. For example, I 
| doubt that Swiss banks in Geneva and Zurich have been compromised in 
| this way...though I expect that wire transfers into and out of such 
| banks are observed and recorded.

Probably; but if the end points are both expensive to trace, watching
those transfers may not buy you a lot.

| I think the continued existence of private banking systems for high net 
| worth individuals shows that even relatively small sets of interacting 
| parties can achieve privacy. This may not be doable with remailers which 
| are operated by, for example, 22-year-old grad students who have spent a 
| couple of hours setting up a remailer on their 600 MHz Celeron box, or 
| even by computer professionals like Len willing to spend more time and 
| effort, but it looks doable.
| 
| Paid remailers are just as necessary for the longterm health of the 
| remailer business as paid banks were and are for the banking business. 
| "Swiss bank in a box" may look like a neat little bit of code to play 
| with in the latest Debian code release, but it ain't really a Swiss bank.

As Dan Geer pointed out, banks are in the risk management business.
If you put your risk management algorithm in a box and expect me not
to game it, its because you have too little money to pay for the
analysis.  LTCM had this problem; their banks decided it was more
profitable to squueze them than to let them live, and they had no
escape plan.  (Its too bad the banks didn't know what their
liabilities were, but thats another rant.)

Adam




-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Dec 24 10:20:51 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 19:20:51 +0100 (CET)
Subject: simplest possible ecash mint
Message-ID: <615e6c170547d65e5d2e911880648119@dizum.com>


Ryan Lackey writes:
> * Some protocol for external communication (direct sockets is easiest,
>   but message-based protocols are far better, and allow a front end
>   processor to handle communications details)

A message is simply a packet of data.  Using a message-based protocol
says nothing about the underlying transport, sockets or carrier pigeons.
If you did this as a computational box with a communications front end
then a simple socket-based RPC protocol would probably be best between
the mint box and the comm box.

> * Reissue operation (powers of two coins; so you can pay with 1 x 2 coin
>   and get 2 x 1 coins back)

Sure.  You give a collection of coins worth $X, along with the blinding
factors appropriate to a different set of coins worth the same amount.
This fits well into the simple exchange mint concept.

> * A clock (decent rate RNG or PRNG is useful too, obviously)
> * A double spending database maintained internally

Right, and you better make sure it's not going to grow too big.  It
may be necessary to expire coins at fixed time intervals (every two
years or so).

> * Two account counters maintained internally: treasury and float
> * "Signed float": tell anyone who asks exactly how much has been
>    issued, signed as the mint.
> * A means of increasing or decreasing the treasury value, after
>   authentication, and ideally an internal log of these changes (which
>   could be published as well, signed)

Does this have per-user accounts in it?  If not, how does the float
amount ever change?  Do some people donate ecash to the bank's treasury
voluntarily, reducing the float?  No one would do that.  Are some people
entitled to receive ecash from the treasury?  Who and why?  Is this the
transfer-in mechanism, or simply a way for the banker to use the treasury
account as his personal slush fund?

What you really have are three kinds of transactions: those within the
system (pure ecash transfers), those out of the system (cashing in ecash
for dollars), and those into the system (purchasing ecash with dollars).
Maybe you could explain how you see these kinds of transactions working
in terms of your float and treasury account counters.

> * Key management functionality (signing keys generated onboard; some
>   kind of hierarchy so non-coins can be linked to coins)

What is this linkage for?

> * Ability to publish a description of some sort of the coins

Yes, and whatever public keys are appropriate for the protocol.

> * Power switch

Don't forget the light that tells you its on.  Really, this level of
detail is redundant.




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 24 11:34:41 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 19:34:41 +0000
Subject: simplest possible ecash mint
Message-ID: <20011224193440.GA7910@atreides.havenco.com>


I don't believe "normal users" should ever interact directly with the
mint; using the mint as a reissue server only in normal operation is a
key optimization -- especially when coupled with tamper-resistant mint 
hardware.  Easier to develop, easier to operate, easier to audit.
Users should purchase cash from change makers; the issuer could also
operate a change maker, and can handle sales to change-makers separately.

The mint should be able to report to the world exactly how many coins
it has issued -- for without this figure, it would be difficult for
users to trust that an issuer has not inflated the currency (I think
free banking theory would disagree with this, proposing instead that
competitors attempt to test withdrawals regularly, but I still think
publishing a float figure is important).  This also demands that
certain keys be generated on the mint and only under the mint's
control, not under even the issuer's control, except through logged
and proscribed actions.

I simply want there to be a way for the issuer of a currency to
increase the authorized amount and withdraw the tokens, in a way which
is logged by the mint itself.  Otherwise, you need an external means
of generating the initial batch of signed currency, the problem with
currency withering away over time, etc.  Much better to make it a
clean part of the design.

The issuer of the currency would be able to increase or decrease the
authorized amount of cash (treasury), and could request from the mint 
an amount of tokens up to that amount.  The issuer could also send coins and
have them destroyed, and they would be subtracted from float.

The reason for doing this explicitly is that in the future one may
replace "issuer manually sets the treasury" with
"mint directly contacts an external server to see account balance,
publishing that as treasury", with rules internal to the mint on how
much of various assets must be held to issue a currency -- perhaps you
could have a derivative instrument issued against another token-based
currency, where the mint itself held a single large coin in another
issue.  If you made it a single step (increase treasury directly
results in increase in float, by sending coins to the treasury) it
would make automatic/external changes to the treasury more difficult,
due to the need for a multi-stage blinding protocol.

A multi-currency mint would just have multiple accounts of this form,
two for each currency, plus associated keys.  This makes it very easy
to separate mint-operator from currency issuer, etc.


> > [linkage of signing keys and external keys]

I'd like there to be a way for a textual description of the issue, the
issuer signing keys, and external means of reputation/identity to be
verified; this is just a question of what keys sign what and how to
present it.  

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From remailer at aarg.net  Mon Dec 24 19:40:06 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 19:40:06 -0800
Subject: Illusional delusions
Message-ID: 


The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined
by the state, from the equation.

Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties
that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to
convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to
rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money
launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper
cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is
not a solution.

This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop
copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof
watermarks.

Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in
any form or shape.

Thinking aloud ... this may be silly:

Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange,
maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by
defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties
should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own
currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating
new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly
connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it
was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone
whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business
for reputation building. Again, hardly new.

This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain
much from it anyway. Going through a series of intermediaries to buy
some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the
state's sight.

In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for
centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business
will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad.

So, tell me, is this silly ?




From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Dec 24 20:03:32 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:03:32 -0800
Subject: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011223140043.GA28724@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <3C278A14.2452.1492AFD@localhost>


    --
On 23 Dec 2001, at 21:39, Black Unicorn wrote:
> While this might not directly impact the person running or
> developing the system it certain serves to discourage users
> of the system after a single allegation has been made.
> Customer flight would be awfully dramatic I suspect.

You are as usual full of shit.

If this was so, ever banking haven, e-gold, and the rest,
would be out of business.

You have remarkable confidence not only in the effectiveness
of laws to deter those things they directly prohibit, but
even those things that are sort of vaguely like those things
they directly prohibit "Mr Happy Fun court will not be
amused"

Every business continually commits numerous major illegal
acts, and every day must do innumerable acts that would
doubtless fail to amuse Mr Happy fun court.  So much is
illegal that legislation has little effect even on those
things the legislation directly prohibits. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     RCj1DCzyAm8eidKtmn0RmSg1ebiKI6xeOOtvT5bR
     4c+XBSZ+Aswf6s7TUkkppDwFOhFFZSclReM4DxJK8





From zetamail_arpa at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 24 20:16:15 2001
From: zetamail_arpa at yahoo.com (Patricia de Leon)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:16:15
Subject: Hi there.
Message-ID: <589.207079.35247@yahoo.com>



MAILING LISTS FOR SALE.

Fresh and Highly deliverable email addresses.

100% Verified.

100% De-duped.

Washed and extremely marketable.

http://irvine001.tripod.com




To be removed from our mailing list send with "remove" as the subject to:

remove001 at eml.cc




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 01:43:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:43:49 +1100
Subject: We are not sending assassins to kill joshua gordon
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224202621.00a41da0@pop.useoz.com>


Due to the christmas ceasefire and the fact that we are not yet formally at 
war,OSD international has authorized me to categorically deny that any 
attempts will be made on the life of young joshua Gordon in the next few days.
The victorian police are closely monitoring the situation and continue to 
receive all mail addressed to proffr at fuckmicrosoft.com Taylors shoes have 
been confiscated and he continues to receive the finest psychiatric 
treatment at enormous expense to the State.The small support group for 
disturbed cyberstalkers and unaffiliated terrorists is coming together 
nicely and should have their own anonymous chat room soon.Catherine Trammel 
has kindly volunteered to be moderator.We wish you a merry syphilis and a 
happy gonorrhea.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 02:12:54 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:12:54 +1100
Subject: Declan;"I am a Camera"McCullagh.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224210621.00a3dc30@pop.useoz.com>


Me no Leica. http://www.wired.com/news/holidays/0,1882,49354,00.html

This nosebleed is the world's first electronically-guided catoroach.
The catoroach, surgically implanted with a micro-robotic backpack that 
allows researchers to control its movements, is known as Robo-roach, whose 
implications "for mankind could be immense", said Isao Shimoyama, an 
assistant proffr heading the university's bio-robot research team.
Within a few years, predicted Dr Shimoyama, similarly controlled insects 
will be carrying mini-cameras or other sensory devices to be used for a 
variety of sensitive missions - like crawling through earthquake rubble to 
search for victims or slipping under doors on espionage.

"Aphids"McPillock.Digital idiot,shurley shome mishtake!

http://www.anu.edu.au/mail-archives/link/link0103/0261.html
Telling lies about our declan?

 >>...For linkers who aren't familiar with Declan McCullagh, he's several 
things,
including a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian...<<

Libertarians are dangerous.
 >>...Authorities had long known that Bell was a spokesperson for a local 
libertarian militia...<<

Jim Bell editorial from the Baltimore City Paper
No doubt about it, Jim Bell disliked the government. As far as this 
Vancouver, Wash., resident was concerned, there isn't any problem with 
Congress that $60 worth of bullets couldn't solve. And he let his opinion 
be known in newsgroups, mailing lists, and, perhaps most notoriously, 
through an essay he wrote and promoted on the Internet called 
"Assassination Politics".
But did Bell-who, federal authorities discovered, had an arsenal of deadly 
chemicals and firearms and the home addresses of more than 100 government 
workers-have a plan to murder public employees?
"What was interesting is that the whole case was based on whether he'd be 
harmful in the future. He hadn't actually hurt anyone, but he was talking 
about some scary stuff," John Branton, a reporter who covered the Bell case 
for the southern Washington newspaper The Columbian (The Jim Bell Story), 
told me by phone.
On Dec. 12, Bell, 39, was sentenced to 11 months in prison and three years 
of supervised probation after pleading guilty to using false Social 
Security numbers and setting a stink bomb off at a local Internal Revenue 
Service office. But authorities acknowledge those charges weren't what his 
arrest was really about.
"We chose not to wait until he followed through on what we believe were 
plans to assassinate government employees," Jeffrey Gordon, an IRS 
inspector, told the Portland, Ore., daily The Oregonian. Gordon likened 
Bell to convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh and Unabomber 
suspect Theodore Kaczynski. The federal government's court filing against 
Bell stated the belief that the defendant had a plan to "overthrow the U.S. 
government." Proof of his motivation, the government asserted, was found in 
Bell's Internet writings: "Bell has spelled out parts of his overall plan 
in his 'Assassination Politics' essay."
Bell wasn't lacking for firepower. On April 1, 20 armed federal agents 
raided Bell's home, where he lived with his parents. According to U.S. News 
& World Report ("Terrorism's Next Wave") the feds found three semiautomatic 
assault rifles; a handgun; a copy of the book The Terrorist's Handbook; the 
home addresses of more than 100 government workers; and a garage full of 
potentially deadly chemicals. Authorities had long known that Bell was a 
spokesperson for a local libertarian militia and was involved in a 
so-called "common-law court" that planned "trials" of IRS employees.
Given what the feds found at the house, in retrospect the raid seems 
prudent-as Leroy Loiselle of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency told 
U.S. News, "You don't need nitric acid to keep aphids off your flowers." 
It's easy to forget the troubling fact that the government's initial reason 
for raiding Bell's residence was "Assassination Politics," which they found 
in Bell's car when the IRS seized it back in February. (Bell owed some 
$30,000 in back taxes.) Will others who make public their wrath for 
government and owe some taxes to Uncle Sam be paid similar visits?
What's perhaps more troubling still is the way the feds held up Bell's 
essay as evidence of his violent intent. Reading "Assassination Politics" 
makes clear that it is no more a workable blueprint for overthrowing the 
government than Frank Herbert's Dune is a realistic plan for urban renewal. 
For about two years prior to Bell's arrest, "Assassination Politics" 
floated around the Internet. Bell, for instance, sent this essay out on the 
cypherpunks mailing list, where scenarios for the future, based on new 
technology and libertarian principles, are frequently discussed. None of 
the cypherpunks took his "plan" seriously then.
The core of "Assassination Politics" is a plan to establish an anonymous 
electronic market wherein people could "wager" money on when public 
individuals, be they world leaders or corrupt tax collectors, will die. A 
person (say, for instance, an assassin) who correctly "predicts" the day of 
a death could anonymously collect the "winnings." Far from being a direct 
call to arms, Bell's essay is largely hypothetical, at least until 
encryption, traceless digital cash, and mass homicidal hatred of world 
leaders becomes widespread. Ugly yes; realistic no.
"I've told Jim Bell on any number of occasions that it would never work," 
Robert East, a friend of Bell's, tells me by e-mail. "If Jim had properly 
titled this as a fictional piece of literature he'd have been far more 
accurate."
In April, when the Jim Bell story broke, both The Columbian and Time 
Warner's Netly News portrayed Bell as a victim whose free-speech rights 
were violated. But as evidence against Bell piled up, the sympathy muted 
considerably. U.S. News' recent cover story on domestic terrorism, 
"Terrorism's Next Wave," opened with the Bell case.
Perhaps Bell was prosecuted for what he wrote rather than what he might do. 
(Both friends and family have repeatedly said Bell, though a big talker, 
isn't much of a doer. "Jim is a harmless academic [n]erd," East insists. 
"I've known him for years and he's harmless.") Perhaps the IRS was spooked 
by little more than idle speculation of its demise. But the evidence seems 
to have dealt the feds the better hand, and lends credence to the idea 
that, for all the protest of free-speech advocates, words are not always 
separable from actions.

Declans words to the cato institute interest me,care to scanem in Mr Mac? 
Your words should be compartmentalized if your a real punk.




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Dec 24 13:20:20 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:20:20 +0100 (CET)
Subject: simplest possible ecash mint
Message-ID: 


Ryan Lackey writes:
>
> I don't believe "normal users" should ever interact directly with the
> mint; using the mint as a reissue server only in normal operation is a
> key optimization -- especially when coupled with tamper-resistant mint 
> hardware.  Easier to develop, easier to operate, easier to audit.
> Users should purchase cash from change makers; the issuer could also
> operate a change maker, and can handle sales to change-makers separately.

You're using some of these terms without defining them clearly:
mint, issuer, and change maker.  Earlier you said the change maker was
responsible for changing between ecash and something of value, presumably
including other currencies.  Presumably the mint is the cryptographic
engine which issues ecash coins.  The issuer is apparently someone
who is allowed to force the mint to issue coins at will, although the
mint is supposed to log and report on such interventions.  (Anyone can
destroy coins, so an issuer is not needed for that functionality.)

Can you explain how these three roles would work in a transaction where
Alice gets some ecash for dollars, pays Bob in ecash, who turns the
ecash back into dollars?

Here is how it seems like it should work.  The change maker Carol has a
bunch of ecash she stands ready to sell.  Alice gives her $X in dollars,
along with blinded data to become Alice's ecash.  The change maker does an
exchange operation at the mint, giving the mint $X in the change maker's
own coins, along with the blinding factors from Alice.  The mint gives
back new blinded coins which Carol passes to Alice, who unblinds them
to get her ecash.

Alice passes the ecash to Bob.  He does an exchange operation at the
mint to get new coins and to verify that Alice's cash is good.  He
then delivers whatever goods or service Alice has paid for.

Bob later wants dollars, so he goes to change maker Carol and delivers
to her ecash.  She does an exchange at the mint to verify that Bob's
coins are good, and then sends Bob dollars in return for his ecoins.

This sequence conflicts somewhat with your model.  Bob had to interact
directly with the mint, and you said that normal users would not.
But only the mint can verify the validity of coins so it seems to be
necessary.

The issuer was not involved in this transaction.  Apparently he is
only there to inflate the currency.  You should consider eliminating
the issuer, who can easily cause trouble.  At startup time let the
mint generate its keys and emit a single high-value coin.  That will
be the money supply for all time.  Allow a banking system to grow
around this "high-powered" currency and fractional reserve bank loans
will automatically adjust the money supply as needed.  See Selgin,
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~selgin/.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 03:33:39 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:33:39 +1100
Subject: Foreigner:Your as cold as ICE.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224222142.00a3c2d0@pop.useoz.com>


Foreigner proceeds from the venerable premise of the lost starship whose 
crew had to land the ship wherever possible. It ended up on a planet whose 
native race, the anarki, practice--among other interesting 
habits--registered assassinations. Two centuries after the landing, only 
one human, the pansy, is allowed out of the human enclave--and at the 
opening of the book, he is the object of an unregistered assassination 
attempt. The subsequent tale is one of those Cherry novels that is longer 
on world building, exotic aliens, and characterization than on action, 
although it is not short on that
Far-future alien-contact yarn from the author of Canucks Legacy, The Goober 
Mirror, etc., where, in a stuttering, episodic liftoff, we learn that a 
human colony ship, lost in space, luckily comes near a planet inhabited by 
humanoid ``anarki' Later, the two species fight a war in which the humans' 
technological superiority barely compensates for their physical inferiority 
and lack of numbers. So the humans are confined to the island of 
Moreu/spheira,
Moreu/spheira. Most people there seem to think that anything outside of 
their tiny island nation does not concern them, despite the fact that it is 
situated in the middle of an alien planet. (Amerika, anyone?)
The underlying plot of the book is how do we deal with other nations? How 
do we deal with nations that are less advanced technically than us? How do 
we view them?
We are asked to believe that  Cameron Ford is the most skilled diplomat of 
his culture. If so, they're in trouble. He's passive, obtuse, and 
ineffectual. He whines a lot (in internal monologue), usually about things 
he doesn't have the power to change. He goes on at length about not 
understanding his alien hosts, although they're actually no more alien than 
some Earth cultures. He doesn't take their good advice. He makes the same 
mistakes over and over. When he does finally act, he's 
*stupid*--potentially getting the only people who can save him *and his 
entire culture* killed in an ambush. Cherry repeatedly rubs our nose in how 
much bigger, stronger, better, faster, more competent, and more potent the 
anarki are. It's well done--Cherry is certainly a good enough writer to 
make it credible--but why in the world does she want to do it?
Compare this novel to Bujold's _Blitherer_, with which it shares a number 
of interesting similarities: a warlike but less-advanced culture jerked 
into the modern world by contact with space, an individual protagonist 
alone in that culture, individual relationships superseding the of law, 
betrayal, politics, fleeing on whorseback. _Blitherer_ succeeds because 
Cordelia is interesting, active, and credible (even when she makes 
mistakes).Cameron is none of the above.




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Mon Dec 24 22:50:05 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:50:05 -0800
Subject: Time to unsubscribe...
In-Reply-To: <20011225055658.7401.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from
  drevil@sidereal.kz on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 05:56:58AM -0000
References: <20011225055658.7401.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20011224225005.B19237@neutraldomain.org>


		On Tue, Dec 25, at 05:56AM, Dr. Evil wrote:
| Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling
| from mattd at useoz.com and ravage at ...  The few bits of wonderfully
| interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to
| motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters.  If someone knows
| of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.

procmail is your friend.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 04:38:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 23:38:52 +1100
Subject: House of crypto games
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224233609.00a833a0@pop.useoz.com>


When Faustine enters the House of Games, she enters a world occupied by 
characters who have known each other so long and so well, in so many 
different ways, that everything they say is a kind of shorthand. At first 
we don't fully realize that, and there is a strange savor to the words they 
use. They speak, of course, in May's distinctive dialogue style, an almost 
musical rhythm of stopping, backing up, starting again, repeating, 
emphasizing, all the time with the hint of deeper meanings below the 
surfaces of the words. The leading actors, Joe Mantegna and Mike Nussbaum, 
have appeared in countless performances of May's plays over the years, and 
they know his dialogue the way other actors grow into Beckett or 
Shakespeare. They speak it as it is meant to be spoken, with a sort of 
aggressive, almost insulting, directness. mattd has a scene where he 
"reads" Faustine- where he tells her about her "tells," those small 
giveaway looks and gestures that poker players use to read the minds of 
their opponents. The way he talks to her is so incisive and unadorned it is 
sexual.
These characters and others live in a city that looks, as the Seattle of 
Trouble in Mind did, like a place on a parallel time track. It is a modern 
American city, but like none we have quite seen before; it seems to have 
been modeled on the paintings of Edward Hopper, where lonely people wait in 
empty public places for their destinies to intercept them. Faustine is 
portrayed as an alien in this world, a successful, best-selling author who 
has never dreamed that men like this exist, and the movie is insidious in 
the way it shows her willingness to be corrupted.
There is in all of us a fascination for the inside dope, for the methods of 
the confidence game, for the secrets of a magic trick. But there is an 
eternal gulf between the shark and the mark, between the con man and his 
victim. And there is a code to protect the secrets. There are moments in 
House of Games when May instructs Faustine in the methods and lore of the 
con game, but inside every con is another one.
I met a woman once who was divorced from a professional magician. She hated 
this man with a passion. She used to appear with him in a baffling trick 
where they exchanged places, handcuffed and manacled, in a locked cabinet. 
I asked her how it was done. The divorce and her feelings meant nothing 
compared to her loyalty to the magic profession. She looked at me coldly 
and said, "The trick is told when the trick is sold." The ultimate question 
in House of Games is, who's buying?




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 24 22:08:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 00:08:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Seasons Greetings
Message-ID: 



Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From unicorn at schloss.li  Mon Dec 24 22:38:05 2001
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 00:38:05 -0600
Subject: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash  developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
In-Reply-To: <3C278A14.2452.1492AFD@localhost>
Message-ID: 




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of jamesd at echeque.com
> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 10:04 PM
> To: Ryan Lackey; cypherpunks at minder.net; Black Unicorn
> Subject: Re: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash
> developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
> 
> 
>     --
> On 23 Dec 2001, at 21:39, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > While this might not directly impact the person running or
> > developing the system it certain serves to discourage users
> > of the system after a single allegation has been made.
> > Customer flight would be awfully dramatic I suspect.
> 
> You are as usual full of shit.
> 
> If this was so, ever banking haven, e-gold, and the rest,
> would be out of business.
> 
> You have remarkable confidence not only in the effectiveness
> of laws to deter those things they directly prohibit, but
> even those things that are sort of vaguely like those things
> they directly prohibit "Mr Happy Fun court will not be
> amused"
> 
> Every business continually commits numerous major illegal
> acts, and every day must do innumerable acts that would
> doubtless fail to amuse Mr Happy fun court.  So much is
> illegal that legislation has little effect even on those
> things the legislation directly prohibits.

So what's your point? 




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 05:49:19 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 00:49:19 +1100
Subject: Faustine on Bell
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225004035.00a3e470@pop.useoz.com>


Subject:
 >>With all the popular rhetoric floating around about the "new information 
age" these days, I thought it might be interesting and useful to look back 
at Daniel Bell's works from the 60s and 70s. His Brave New World-ish 
scenario of dominance by a technocratic policy elite is in many ways eerily 
familiar...and at the risk of being charged with dragging in the "old hat" 
again, thought I'd serve up a few major points for your consideration... In 
his pathbreaking 1973 study "The Coming of Post-Industrial Society: A 
Venture in Social Forecasting," Bell argued that there would soon emerge a 
society "organized around knowledge for the purpose of social control" and 
the directing of innovation and change; that the West was on the brink of a 
new kind of information-led, service-oriented society which would replace 
the industrial-based model that had been dominant in the nineteenth and 
twentieth centuries. He specifies five main dimensions, or components, of 
the term "post- industrial", and to my mind, really seems to have nailed it 
before anyone else: Economic Sector: change from goods-producing to a 
service-oriented economy Occupational distribution: pre-eminence of the 
professional and technical class Axial principle: the centrality of 
theoretical knowledge as the source of innovation and of policy formulation 
of the society Future orientation: the control of technology and technical 
assessment Decision-making: the creation of a new "intellectual technology" 
The transition from industrial to post-industrial society (PIS) occurs 
through the extension of technical rationality, the advance of scientific 
rationality into the economic, social and political spheres. Where once the 
industrialist was dominant, now the technocrat, planners and scientists 
dominate. According to Bell, the government becomes increasingly 
instrumental in the management of the economy and less is left to market 
forces. Instead of relying on the invisible hand, the post-industrial 
society will work toward directing and engineering society. This is an 
extension of the thought of Weber (rationalization) Durkheim and 
Saint-Simon (the father of technocracy) and Taylor (scientific management 
school). The "birth years" of the post-industrial society were the post 
WWII years which saw great technological developments such as: 
transformation of matter into energy - atom bomb and the first digital 
computer. What is characteristic of post-industrial society is not just the 
shift from property or political criteria to knowledge as the base of 
power, but the character of knowledge itself. Theoretical knowledge it has 
become central, it is the "matrix of innovation". Bell anticipates that the 
key organization of the future will be the university (replacing the 
business firm). Prestige and status will be rooted in the intellectual and 
scientific communities. In the PIS, technocrats exercise authority by 
virtue of technical competence. Their emergence as power holders signals 
the emergence of efficiency, instrumentalism, and pragmatic problem 
solving. This manifests Weber's warning that we are becoming "specialists 
without heart". "It is in this conception of rationality as functional, as 
rationalization rather than reason, that one confronts the overriding 
crisis of the technocratic mode." In this mode statistics take the place of 
history in an attempt to understand society. "The virtue of belief in 
history was that some law of reason was operative: History either had a 
teleology as defined by revelation, or some powers of emergence or 
transcendence that were implicit in man's creativity (Hegel's spirit)." 
Here are some excellent quotes from the preface: "Finally, the deepest 
tensions are those between the culture, whose axial direction is 
anti-institutional and antinomian, and the social structure which is ruled 
by an economizing and technocratic mode. It is this tension which is 
ultimately the most fundamental problem of the post-industrial society." 
"What I am arguing in this book is that the major source of structural 
change in this society--the change in the mode of innovation in the 
relation of science to technology and in public policy-- is the change in 
the character of of knowledge: the exponential growth and branching of 
science, the rise of a new intellectual technology, the creation of 
systematic research through R&D budgets, and as the calyx of all this, the 
codification of theoretical knowledge." Any thoughts? Also, I'd be 
interested in any other authors (and recommended works)you find useful re. 
these issues... thanks! ~Faustine.<<
I still think your an alcoholic old fbi agent with false teeth but Ill talk 
to you like de sade's justine occasionally.I just found an ancient (69) 
Heinemann called Technological Man by victor Ferkiss.There's a quote by 
Bell..."Technology is not simply a machine but a systematic,disciplined 
approach to objectives using a calculus of precision and measurement and a 
concept of system with approved procedures for lighting plastique at 
altitude.Also in the book is reference to william Cobbett who sounds 
interesting but not to a young fogey like you.Other authors? De 
Sade's.Justine.120 days of Sodom.The Cyphernomicon?Young Lust comics and 
almost anything by Color Climax.Loompanics.AP by J.Bell.




From unicorn at schloss.li  Mon Dec 24 22:53:18 2001
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 00:53:18 -0600
Subject: Illusional delusions
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of AARG! Anonymous
> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 9:40 PM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Illusional delusions
>
>
> The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined
> by the state, from the equation.

Yes yes, here we go.  A cutesy technical argument about why this that or
another doesn't fit the strict definition of this that or the other offense.
I'm sure the prosecutor, the judge and the jury will be eager to listen.

> Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties
> that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to
> convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to
> rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money
> launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper
> cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is
> not a solution.

Therefore murder, if not witnessed, never happened.  If a body falls in the
forest...?

Please.

> This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop
> copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof
> watermarks.

The fact that party X commits a crime without being witnessed does not
eliminate the crime.  It merely makes prosecution a bit harder.

> Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in
> any form or shape.

Good luck finding a currency that is not "state-money."  The state does a
wonderful thing.  It provides legitimacy to investment vehicles.  It does so
through imposing (or eliminating) liability for transactions failures of
various sorts.  If you don't recognize the importance of that (or propose a
private solution that does a similar thing) then you aren't worth listening
to.  Remember that multiple-issuer currencies have been tried before in just
about any economy you choose to name.  There is a reason none exist anymore.
(Bad money displaces good, or any other of 15 college or early graduate
level economics courses will enlighten you if you choose to pursue them with
anything like interest).

> Thinking aloud ... this may be silly:
>
> Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange,
> maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by
> defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties
> should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own
> currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating
> new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly
> connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it
> was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone
> whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business
> for reputation building. Again, hardly new.

Not new?  Name 5 prominent reputation brokers.  Reputation services?
Reputation clearing agents?  What manner of reputation do they measure?
Trustworthiness?  Identity?  Creditworthiness?  One?  None?  All?  (I can
only think of two, neither of which approach the level of sophistication you
propose here).

> This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain
> much from it anyway.

Oh boy.

> Going through a series of intermediaries to buy
> some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the
> state's sight.

You want work too hard to stay out of the state's sight.

> In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for
> centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business
> will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad.

Tell me a bit more about how wonderful the world would be without economies
of scale.

> So, tell me, is this silly ?

Uh... sure.

(Incidentally, it's "Illusory Delusions."  "Ilusional" isn't a word.  It's
also "Imbalance" not "Disbalance").  I'm prone to typo occasionally too, but
try not to make words up unless your in uncharted waters, eh?




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 06:33:09 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 01:33:09 +1100
Subject: Curse of Choate
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225013131.00a82eb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.ntk.net/
Worried that it's getting too late to send that seasonal deaththreat? Your 
Noel gift of loosely-packed icing sugar lost in the post? Armchair hoodlums 
the world over, twiddle your moustachios with relief: EVIL ANGELICA and her 
"Xmas Giveaway" hacking offer have returned. As involuntarily advertised by 
www.meet-victoria.com (and later by pittsburghrock.com , www.eunhyang.net , 
www.gibnews.com, and www.eprofessionalsinc.com ) web-defacing haxx0r 
Angelica will gladly replace the perfectly innocent front page of a 
semi-obscure domain with festive gr33tz of your own devising. Deadline is 
2001-12-23, so send your requests to webhack_competition at cow-tipper.com 
where Angelica - as well as, we're sure, the National Crime Squad - will 
select the most creative and/or incriminating for further examination. Have 
fun, but do remember: that 4am knock on the door is not *always* Santa 
Claus. http://defaced.alldas.de/?attacker=EVIL+ANGELICA - you're already 
taking that mailbox down, aren't you another.com?




From serdarkahya at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 25 01:35:25 2001
From: serdarkahya at yahoo.com (ARZU COLAK)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 01:35:25
Subject: selam                   2
Message-ID: 

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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 09:30:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 04:30:50 +1100
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable coward.RIP.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225041806.00a82570@pop.useoz.com>


In simplest terms, anarchism stands against not just government, but all 
forms of domination and exploitation. This includes government, but also 
capitalism, landlordism, interest, and profit. In addition, anarchism 
stands for decentralized direct democracy, free association, the 
replacement of capitalist private property "rights" with possession/use 
rights, direct worker ownership and control of the means of production, 
direct action instead of political action, delegation instead of 
representation, and total freedom (which is inherently limited by the 
"other person's nose").

Anarchism is a variant of socialism, because it is for workers' control of 
the means of production, but is a form of libertarian socialism rather than 
state socialism. Unlike the various sorts of state socialism, anarchism is 
for not only workers' control of the means of production, but direct 
democratic control of all aspects of life (instead of by some 
self-appointed "party" or legislature which supposedly knows and acts in 
the interests of the people). Those things which are difficult to control 
at a small level where immediate direct democracy can be practiced are 
controlled through delegation, which is different from representation 
because the delegates are not only chosen by the rank and file, but are 
also given mandates that they must and must only carry out by the rank and 
file, and can be recalled at any time for any reason (all of these are done 
in a directly democratic fashion).

Anarchism stands against capitalism, because capitalism is inherently 
authoritarian. Those who say that capitalism is freedom, forget to say that 
it is just freedom for only those who are in the ruling class. As for the 
workers, who make up the vast majority of the population, the only freedom 
they have under it is to choose who exploits them. They have no real 
control over the means of production. They do not receive the fruits of 
their labor; all they get is their paycheck, which they need to survive 
(which is why most people really don't have the freedom to not be employed 
by anyone, unlike what supporters of capitalism say). There is no real 
democracy in capitalism; the workplace is run in a thoroughly authoritarian 
fashion by a hierarchy of bosses and managers, ending up at the top with 
the executives and big shareholders.

Anarchism also stands against state socialism and "Communism," because 
those also aren't freedom in any respect. First thing, most forms of "state 
socialism" and "Communism" are really state capitalism, which is similar to 
private capitalism except that the government replaces the company as the 
unit of competition, the ruling class is composed of the Party apparatchiks 
and or the politicians and bureaucrats which make up the government, and 
that one doesn't have the choice of what/who they are exploited by. 
"Communism" is really like the "cradle-to-grave" capitalism, where one not 
only works in company factories, but also in company houses in company 
towns, etc. On the other hand, anarchists tend to prefer state socialism 
over private capitalism, because there at least is some social support 
structure rather than none at all (this does not mean that they advocate or 
are willing to settle with state socialism, though). At the same time, 
anarchists often treat Communists (especially Stalinists) in the same 
fashion as fascists and such (even to the point of armed conflict).

Anarchism is a very often misunderstood political theory (not ideology, 
because ideology means a fixed set of prescribed ideas that are 
automatically correct as a block), which forms a real alternative to both 
capitalism and state socialism, both republican ("democratic") and 
autocratic/totalitarian. It is for both freedom and social justice, rather 
than just for social justice or "freedom" (capitalism claims to be for 
freedom, but really isn't for that at all). It is against impersonal 
"representation," where a body of elected politicians from an elite make 
decisions for the rank and file without their input, and replaces that with 
making decisions directly and democratically, and carrying out in the same 
exact fashion. It empowers the people directly, rather than empowering some 
elite to act in their name. Luckily, anarchism today has very significantly 
replaced state socialism on the far left, and is further expanding, but 
anarchism still has a very far way to go until there will be any real 
revolutionary change.




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Mon Dec 24 21:56:58 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 25 Dec 2001 05:56:58 -0000
Subject: Time to unsubscribe...
Message-ID: <20011225055658.7401.qmail@sidereal.kz>


Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling
from mattd at useoz.com and ravage at ...  The few bits of wonderfully
interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to
motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters.  If someone knows
of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 24 22:00:04 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 06:00:04 +0000
Subject: Remailer Stats (was: Swiss Bank in a Box)
Message-ID: <20011225060004.GB10548@atreides.havenco.com>


I just did some statistical analysis on a logfile accidentally kept by
an MTA which I didn't know was keeping it a few months ago.

(which I've deleted, and made sure is not being kept anymore)

Remailer traffic: approximately 3000-5000 messages/day (mix II + cpunk)

Unique input addresses over 13 days: 539 (which would include case
variations, aliases, etc.)

This is *not* statistically significant.  At the time the stats were
taken, HavenCo was a new remailer.  Also, if *I* were an end-user
using remailers, I would use havenco as an *exit* remailer, not an
entry remailer, since it is topologically close to no one; one would
wish to get the message into the remailer network as soon as
possible.  HavenCo only has, say, 3000 active tcp sessions at any one
time in or out of the facility, so if someone were monitoring, that's
a small set too.

A completely out of ass argument is that this points to a stable
remailer-user population of 1-10k users, with <1% responsible for most
of the traffic (web-based gateways, pingers, spammers, people using 
scripts to send abuse messages)

IMO most "real" remailer users are actually using web-based gateways,
rather than initial SMTP, to enter the network.  So these stats are
utterly flawed anyway.

A population of even 10k is certainly well within FBI (or even my
personal) resources to investigate, at least to a cursory level.
Given that most likely a lot of those users are located at large and
"compliant" ISPs or mail providers, gaining access to their normal
outgoing mail feed, connection logs, and identity information is just
not that hard.  Especially if you're willing to break the law.

So, I'd estimate the cost to recover the *average* remailer user's
identity at < USD 500 (assuming repeated use).  Monitor the ~15 big
remailers (knocking the ones off which you can't monitor, either
through legal or covert technical means...spamming via them as exit
and complaining to isp might be good enough).  You should be able to
get samples of mail from the same users without much difficulty,
monitoring their non-remailed communications at the originating ISP.
Presumably, the users may be sending some volume of related traffic
via non-remailers; this may be sufficient (could "used an evil
anonymous remailer" be sufficient to get wiretap authority on regular
mail in a terrorist case?)  

Traffic analysis is *hard* to defeat.  Especially when your set is
small enough that you can do out of band analysis on all the participants.

If ZKS had, as some were saying, <500 customers for the freedom
product, it would have been even worse for them.  With a small enough
number of customers, you can blackbag users, intimidate, or whatever.

I think unless there is a compelling [non-privacy reason] for end-users
to participate in a mix, it's hopeless to try for >10k users.  If
participation in a mix were incidental to some other activity, such as
posting normal text postings to usenet, browsing a very popular
website which happens to use padded SSL for all communications, using
an encrypted IM system which did a mix of some kind as an automatic
part of operation, or participated in a large-scale p2p system.  I
think if participation in a mix is incidental to *normal* email use,
that would be sufficient as well.

I think there are a few possible routes to doing this:

0) Cypherpunk applications continuing to be few and far between, not
up to "commercial" standards, and not widely deployed.  The default.

1) Cypherpunks writing widely-used applications: this has been tried
in the past and seems to fail.  Few developers of widely-deployed
commercial software are explicitly cypherpunks, even though they may
be libertarians.  They often don't understand crypto at any deep
level, at BEST they use a pre-packed crypto library like OpenSSL if it
is a mostly drop-in replacement for a non-crypto counterpart, or
otherwise widely documented.  Witness the large number of conventional
security weaknesses in applications today, failure to manage keys
properly in the few crypto applications, etc.

2) Cypherpunks modifying existing open-source applications to
incorporate crypto.  Despite the open source ideal, most developers
don't like taking "outside" patches, especially where security or
network functions are concerned.  Applications designed for modularity
are a lot better.  Many apps are a "moving target".

3) Cypherpunks developing "libcypherpunks" or some other library which
includes cryptographic secure, anonymous, etc. replacements for
existing functions -- the md5 passwords vs. crypt in various unix OSes
is a good example.  Things which have no conventional analogue should
be packaged in a programmer-friendly way.  Some of these could include
distributed operations; general distrbution is really hard, but
certain specialized functions are easy, and having a good way to do it
would support experimentation.

4) Cypherpunks producing a "this is how to develop secure, privacy
protecting applications" document and training for conventional developers.
I assume most people who develop worthwhile software already
understand roughly "why" they should do this kind of thing, but that
don't know "how".

5) Participation in standards bodies to make "MUST" or "SHOULD" security 
for protocols (with the hope that standard/reference implementations
will be available).  I hate standards bodies, but some people seem to
get off on this, and it's not unhelpful.

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 24 22:13:28 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 06:13:28 +0000
Subject: Liability, economic realities and self delusion in ecash developers. Or: Why not "just write ecash" (again).
In-Reply-To: <3C278A14.2452.1492AFD@localhost>
References: <20011223140043.GA28724@atreides.havenco.com> <3C278A14.2452.1492AFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20011225061328.GA10622@atreides.havenco.com>


Quoting jamesd at echeque.com :
> On 23 Dec 2001, at 21:39, Black Unicorn wrote:
> > While this might not directly impact the person running or
> > developing the system it certain serves to discourage users
> > of the system after a single allegation has been made.
> > Customer flight would be awfully dramatic I suspect.
> 
> You are as usual full of shit.

I would say "overcautious", at worst.  Lawyers tend to be.
Entrepreneurs tend to be overoptimistic and risk-taking.  It seems to
balance out over time.  I think there are more "entrepreneurs" of
various legal and illegal forms in prison than lawyers.  But,
few innovations come from lawyers, either.

> If this was so, ever banking haven, e-gold, and the rest,
> would be out of business.

Banking havens have folded in the past 30 years.  No one provides
anonymous banking to joe random off the street anymore.  They may
provide certain levels of privacy, but with various levels of
protection against drugs, money laundering, etc.  Others may allow
things to slip through the cracks due to incompetence, but will
eventually shut.

A monolithic ecash system doesn't have the flexibility to allow
individual actors to change or fold without affecting the system; a
decentralized one does.  If you assume a monolithic system, a single
investigation could have some risk of shutting it down.

An ecash system is about providing a higher level of anonymity than
even the richest people in the world can have today, to every random
user connecting from home, in the normal course of operations.  And
continuing to transact business regardless of what happens.  This is
completely impossible for any kind of monolithic entity to do.

> You have remarkable confidence not only in the effectiveness
> of laws to deter those things they directly prohibit, but
> even those things that are sort of vaguely like those things
> they directly prohibit "Mr Happy Fun court will not be
> amused"

Prohibitions on anonymous financial transactions are not just some
minor law; they're not even a major law.  This is *the* regulatory
issue of the past 50-100 years.  (along with the supremacy of the
federal state).  It is bigger than the war on drugs, bigger than the
war on terrorism, etc.

An anonymous electronic cash system, in aggregate, is a direct threat
to the nation state.  That's why otherwise intelligent people have
spent nearly 20 years building systems which have this as a
pre-requisite, wasting millions of dollars in futile efforts to
develop/deploy, etc.

I still think the most likely result is that a system will be
distributed and not deployed, or deployed but not widely used, and
thus mainly ignored, but not for regulatory reasons, simply for trust,
software engineering, market, etc. reasons.  But I'd like to give it a shot.

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 24 23:06:40 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:06:40 +0000
Subject: What to back an ecash issue with, structure
Message-ID: <20011225070640.GA10575@atreides.havenco.com>


I've read quite a bit about free banking.  The idea of using a
purely-technical basis for a currency, and then allowing it to float,
is interesting -- as is linking to an external accounting system, and
only issuing based on that.

I think the greatest threat to an electronic cash system is 1) not
being deployed 2) not being adopted once deployed.  So I'd be inclined
to go for something simple vs. complex, in backing it -- a warehouse
full of cash, or gold, or whatever else, controlled by a legal entity
which sets a redemption policy.  Trying to explain free banking to
someone becomes complex.

Without a market, automated price presentment in converted form,
etc. users would be annoyed/confused by a free-floating currency.
While I suppose the mint could issue 1m tokens by default, and an
issuer could sell them at a rate on the open market for USD 1/token,
such that the market value does not fluctuate, then you lose the mint
being able to publish treasury and float figures.  I think placing
those two figures into the mint and signed by keys only the mint has
would do more to reassure users of stable currency value than a
potentially-shadowy issuer.  Issuer sets aside $x and tells the mint,
mint issues x tokens, tokens trade near $1 each, and if the issuer
wants to expand the issue, the issuer either devalues the currency, or
adds more money.  This way the issuer could retain a constant unit
price while starting with, say $10k of cash for 10k units, selling
those, then issuing more. 

There are a lot of interesting experiments, but most of them are only
interesting once a basic level of infrastructure is deployed.  First
simple mints, then a market, then more sophisticated, derivative,
etc. issues, then security features.

A purely-technical "high-power money" experiment would be fun, and
might be a better basis for issues than "mint in control of bank
accounts externally" or "external issuer banking issue", but
it's more complex to deploy.  
-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 25 08:41:36 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 08:41:36 -0800
Subject: Simplest possible ecash mint
In-Reply-To: <2c4a75cf8f4f711baac94cdb488acf04@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3C283BC0.26903.2B1614@localhost>


On 24 Dec 2001, at 9:40, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> How simple can an ecash mint be?
> 
> For the simplest case there should be no accounts.  All the mint does is
> exchange coins for other coins.  There are no customer lists, no records
> of transactions (except as needed for double-spending detection).

In order to give value to ecoins, it is necessarily to make them 
convertible with some other currency, normally an account based 
currency. It is difficult to do this without supporting accounts.

One could of course have a pile of gold, and physically and in 
person exchange coins for physical gold, but it is considerably 
more convenient to exchange coins for account based money, 
such as e-gold.  It is difficult to make such transactions entirely 
atomic, because of the possibility that something might go wrong, 
requiring durable state.  We then need a database key for that 
state.  Such a database key looks rather like an account

> By itself, this trivial mint can support a transaction system, and in
> principle a whole economy.  For Alice to pay Bob, she gives him coins.
> Bob exchanges them at the mint for new coins, thereby checking that they
> are good.  End of transaction.  Bob can spend his new coins elsewhere,
> unlinkable to the exchange.

This only works if the transaction is complete and final, for example 
downloading pornography, or for people who meet physically, and 
exchange physical assets for ecash.  If the transaction is for 
account assets outside the system, then the transaction must 
have state that looks very like an account, if only a transient 
account.

> The mint does not even have to be involved in transfers between ecash
> and other forms of payment.  This is one of the things the e-gold people
> got right.  They outsourced in- and out-transactions.  You go to any of
> dozens of coin dealers, currency services, shady operators of all stripes,
> to get money into or out of your e-gold account.  The same thing would
> work here.  Third parties would offer to buy or sell ecash for dollars,
> grams of gold, hi grade cocaine, etc.

The value of e-gold is ultimately maintained by physical transfers 
with a pile of gold inside a vault outside US jurisdiction.  It takes a 
great deal of time and cost to actually transfer stuff to and from that 
vault, hence the numerous intermediaries.  The intermediaries 
therefore find it convenient to maintain accounts with e-gold.

While accounts are not needed for many transactions, and should 
be avoided where possible, they are convenient for many 
transactions, and essential for some.  




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 25 08:41:36 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 08:41:36 -0800
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011224175457.00a3a2d0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C283BC0.17799.2B163C@localhost>


    --
mattd:
>  > > Gaston Leval,Bookchin,Paz,Chomsky and even H.Thomas.

James A. Donald:
> > Commie liars, except for Thomas, who does not say what
> > you claim he does.

mattd:
> Ahwell! Still if you want to lump stalinists,trots and
> anarchs together

The difference between Stalinists and Trots is that the Trots
were from the beginning more extreme, more brutal, and more
contemptuous of ordinary Russians.  The original point of
dispute between Stalin and Trotsky was that Trotsky though
Stalin was too soft on the kulaks.  The moderate faction in
Russia were the Zinovievists.  No one outside Russia thought
himself a Zinovievist, all identifying with the more extreme,
not less extreme, factions of Soviet communism.

There once upon a time was difference between those you
falsely call anarchists, and the commies, but after the
incompatibility between anarchism and socialism was
demonstrated in 1936-1938, the difference vanished.  Chomsky
illustrates this well.  Wherever the masters boot smashes
repeatedly into the face of a child, we can always rely on
Chomsky to find a good word for the master, and demonize the
child as a CIA agent. Chomsky defended the Pol Pot regime in
Cambodia, the slave labor camps employed to pacify South
Vietnam, rationalized the Soviet reinvasion of Czechoslovakia
and Hungary as defence against US aggression, and supported
Stalin's attacks on Greece. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     3gh0I8l0+2c0DhDc25zDuOGyLW5+w/ysrzPJbbJQ
     4DT1gyDtaBQfFxPVNIinlWXVmFGa7MKPhZhfsdGyh




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 25 08:52:48 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 08:52:48 -0800
Subject: county to use GPS, polygraph on paroled sex offenders
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011225085248.007e8e70@pop.sprynet.com>


Orange County is taking what some civil libertarians 
consider troubling steps to keep tabs on released sex 
offenders, giving them periodic lie detector tests and, starting 
next year, requiring some to wear wristbands linked to 
satellite tracking systems.

The county will become the first in the state, and one of only 
a dozen or so nationwide, to track sex offenders on parole 
and probation with global positioning satellites, which allow 
officials to pinpoint offenders' locations around the clock.



http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000101626dec23.story?coll=la%2Dheadline
s%2Dcalifornia%2Dmanual




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 25 07:32:20 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:32:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable ,  coward.RIP. 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225144947.00a84240@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

>  >>| Anarchism is a variant of socialism > > an7ar7chism (nr-kzm) > n. > 
> The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive > and 
> undesirable and should be abolished.
> 
> Which is self-referential (it basically says that even anarchism will 
> oppress). <<
> 
> Indeed.Especially where delegates are not rotated and revocable.See jamesd 
> for the dangers anarchism in practise.

You don't need James D., all you've got to do is look to your neighbors.

In an anarchism what is illegal is whatever you do that irritates your
neighbors. Which is about as coersive as it gets, need an example of why
CACL doesnt' work, look at the discussion around the 'CDR:' in message
titles.



 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 25 09:44:46 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:44:46 -0800
Subject: Big Bang Thought Experiment
In-Reply-To: <3C283BC0.26903.2B1614@localhost>
Message-ID: <1631111A-F95F-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 25, 2001, at 08:41 AM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> On 24 Dec 2001, at 9:40, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> How simple can an ecash mint be?
>>
>> For the simplest case there should be no accounts.  All the mint does 
>> is
>> exchange coins for other coins.  There are no customer lists, no 
>> records
>> of transactions (except as needed for double-spending detection).
>
> In order to give value to ecoins, it is necessarily to make them
> convertible with some other currency, normally an account based
> currency. It is difficult to do this without supporting accounts.
>
> One could of course have a pile of gold, and physically and in
> person exchange coins for physical gold, but it is considerably
> more convenient to exchange coins for account based money,
> such as e-gold.  It is difficult to make such transactions entirely
> atomic, because of the possibility that something might go wrong,
> requiring durable state.  We then need a database key for that
> state.  Such a database key looks rather like an account

Here's a thought experiment: Issue a fixed amount of blinded tokens, for 
free, and see what happens. How they would be distributed is another 
topic. But the issuer would promise to exchange them (or make change) in 
some specified way, e.g., a 1% commission. This would result in 
fractional tokens, perhaps in the 1-5-10-25-50-100 denominations common 
with ordinary coins.

(Chaum tried something similar in 1995. I'm not suggesting precisely the 
same thing. Chaum's experiment did not generate much interest, as this 
experiment might not, either.)

The thought experiment is that it is possible that the "thing of value" 
is the utility of the token, not some underlying store of value. How 
others might bid for these tokens, possibly bidding with "real money," 
would be of no concern to the mint.

Depends on confidence that the number of tokens is in fact fixed, and 
that forging of new tokens is not easy.

This is what I hoped Mojo would demonstrate.

More discussion:

1. Must money be tied to intrinsic stores of value? I think the answer 
is clearly "No." The U.S. dollar is not in any direct way tied to 
anything except _other dollars_. Obviously. True, there are already many 
things already valued in dollars--land, things, houses, loans, taxes, 
salaries--so there is a somewhat circular argument that echoes what 
Danny DeVito said in the recent movie "Heist": "Money is money, that's 
why they call it "money"!" (paraphrased)

2. How much would need to be issued? Depends on a lot of factors. 
Numbers of users, interest in the experiment, evolution of markets.

3. Isn't it "unfair" to randomly issue money and then see what happens?

4. Are there better ways to issue the money? There could be a 
preliminary auction, denominated in dollars and with no concern for 
anonymity/untraceability. (Since the act of moneychanging generates 
blinded new tokens, it matters not that the original purchasers are 
traceable. All they need to do is change their money.)

5. Who might use it? Let the market(s) decide. Remailers, warez....

Comment: I'm not trying to trivialize the issues. There are issues with 
dealing with double-spending ("first to redeem" is a good fix), transfer 
deadlock (when Alice and Bob exchange something for some token...what if 
one walks away? A deadlock issue with real money, as with exchanging 
suitcases of cocaine for suitcases of dollars), and other issues.

And it is quite possible that such an experiment would produce little 
interest.

But the cost of trying such an experiment is not especially great. Many 
such experiments/releases later, we may have learned some interesting 
things. And possibly one such release will be robust enough (issues 
about numbers of moneychangers, robustness of mints, etc.) that it 
nucleates a functioning money system for at least some interesting 
cypherspace uses.

--Tim May


"Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But 
stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is 
no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." 
--Robert A. Heinlein




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 25 07:46:08 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:46:08 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Carnivore Comes To India
Message-ID: <3C289F40.4D39F32@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/25/0524224.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 25 10:02:24 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 10:02:24 -0800
Subject: simplest possible ecash mint
In-Reply-To: <615e6c170547d65e5d2e911880648119@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3C284EB0.17842.751161@localhost>


    --
On 24 Dec 2001, at 19:20, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Right, and you better make sure it's not going to grow too
> big.  It may be necessary to expire coins at fixed time
> intervals (every two years or so).

Anyone can afford a computer with 400 gigabytes of raid
storage for his five year old kid to play with.   We can
postpone worrying about expiry until after we make a good
start on taking over the world economy. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     iSs3jGUVwwXG6JKrXM0lJC+atTE4Hs61oaGCk1+N
     4jumGI9voUfnlLuHf2vM1VxJaiFDlgj1EgbjHWEBO




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 25 10:02:24 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 10:02:24 -0800
Subject: Simplest possible ecash mint
In-Reply-To: <96F775BE-F894-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <2c4a75cf8f4f711baac94cdb488acf04@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3C284EB0.13213.751180@localhost>


    --
On 24 Dec 2001, at 9:35, Tim May wrote:
> This is a terribly important point. Implementing this
> "atomic transaction" would be a major step. Having a Web
> site that does this EVEN WITH PLAY TOKENS would be a useful
> step. (Many dislike toy applications, but a site which did
> this would be a way to play with the software, test the
> reliability, and get ideas for further developments. The
> "Play Tokens" would be of literally no value, ostensibly.)

No complex system was ever written from scratch.  It always
started out as a simple system that was patched
incrementally. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     nMdb/hR+lZwAvCc+I4FPTCbY+lLO/f78ruGxweC0
     43Hy9cqHx0yoOaMjAiUlm6G3vDdy2fq+uHpWHor4C




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Dec 25 08:42:52 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 11:42:52 -0500
Subject: Ode to John Ashcroft and Civil Liberties
Message-ID: 


Some thoughts to think about regarding our constitutional rights


Ode to John Ashcroft and Civil Liberties
Sung to the tune of Santa Claus is Coming to Town

You better watch out,
You better not pout,
You better not cry.
I'm telling you why.
John ashcroft's coming to town.

He sees you with your lawyer.
He listens to every phone;
He reads everyone's email,
and he locks you all alone.

With little tin guns
And tiny cellphones
Rooty hoot, hoot, he's breaking in homes,
Big Brother is coming to town.

He knows when you are traveling.
He knows who you're around;
Tried in military courtrooms,
Not a lawyer can be found.

He's makin' a list,
and checking for race,
Gonna arrest those who are dark of face.
Big Brother's coming to town.

You better watch out,
You better not pout,
You better not cry.
I'm telling you why.
Big Brother's coming to town.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maintained by The Nonviolence Web:nvweb at nonviolence.org
Page created December 03, 101. NVWeb, Philadelphia USA

**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 25 12:33:44 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 12:33:44 -0800
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html
In-Reply-To: <562104bf445a18b63b7677354160b46b@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011225123344.007dc3a0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:20 PM 12/25/01 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> This just gets better and better...
>>
>> "Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration announced Sunday all
>> U.S. airports are required to add random shoe checks of passengers to the
>> already established practice of random baggage checks." 
>
>Those of us travelling over the holidays can be thankful that the
>bomber did not hide the explosives up his ass.

Also have to wonder why Mr Reid didn't go to the bathroom
to detonate.  He could have even disabled the smoke detector,
although that violates federal law :-) 




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 25 12:37:00 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 12:37:00 -0800
Subject: Remailer Stats (was: Swiss Bank in a Box)
In-Reply-To: <20011225060004.GB10548@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <3C2872EC.3046.1029C06@localhost>


    --
On 25 Dec 2001, at 6:00, Ryan Lackey wrote:
> A population of even 10k is certainly well within FBI (or
> even my personal) resources to investigate, at least to a
> cursory level. Given that most likely a lot of those users
> are located at large and "compliant" ISPs or mail
> providers, gaining access to their normal outgoing mail
> feed, connection logs, and identity information is just not
> that hard.  Especially if you're willing to break the law.

The best is enemy of the good enough.  If the enemy can
identify me as a member of a population of ten thousand, this
is a fairly major improvement on identifying me as a member
of a population of one.

So, remailers are not wholly bullet proof.  We would like
them to be better.  They are still pretty good. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     hiM77kpAaJ+5uWgrtn1I+TfDotrX5OXB0GJMb2wI
     4yRkGOMlxofAaU0Cg92QmLQhoqKsVQvjvAdZ8WVo0




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 25 13:07:20 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:07:20 -0800
Subject: Remailer Stats (was: Swiss Bank in a Box)
In-Reply-To: <3C2872EC.3046.1029C06@localhost>
Message-ID: <629CA574-F97B-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 25, 2001, at 12:37 PM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 25 Dec 2001, at 6:00, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>> A population of even 10k is certainly well within FBI (or
>> even my personal) resources to investigate, at least to a
>> cursory level. Given that most likely a lot of those users
>> are located at large and "compliant" ISPs or mail
>> providers, gaining access to their normal outgoing mail
>> feed, connection logs, and identity information is just not
>> that hard.  Especially if you're willing to break the law.
>
> The best is enemy of the good enough.  If the enemy can
> identify me as a member of a population of ten thousand, this
> is a fairly major improvement on identifying me as a member
> of a population of one.
>
> So, remailers are not wholly bullet proof.  We would like
> them to be better.  They are still pretty good.
>

And importantly, _suspicion_ is not enough for conviction or even search 
warrants. (In most cases.)


Remember that when the Church of Scientology got the Finnish courts to 
force Julf to reveal the nym that was bothering the Church, the trail 
led back to a conventional CP remailer at C2Net, which kept no records. 
The trail went ice cold there.

We can all get paranoid and say that our use of remailers puts us into 
the "Group Under Suspicion," but, as James says, even the existing 
network of remailers does a good job of killing traceability.


--Tim May
"Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little 
bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now 
racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events 
following 9/11/2001




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 18:27:46 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:27:46 +1100
Subject: Simplest possible ecash mint.Mays going Simple.Blood
  Simple.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225131114.00a84c10@pop.useoz.com>


 >>This is a terribly important point. Implementing this "atomic 
transaction" would be a major step. Having a Web site that does this EVEN 
WITH PLAY TOKENS would be a useful step. (Many dislike toy applications, 
but a site which did this would be a way to play with the software, test 
the reliability, and get ideas for further developments. The "Play Tokens" 
would be of literally no value, ostensibly.) << Tammy May

Obnoxiously after boosting 'sweet spots' and some rubbish called 
anarcho-capitalism I now want to play on Xmas day!
Fork off uncle scrooge.

 >>Like a cellular automata, the basic rules dramatically affect future 
evolutionary paths.<<

Like a sneak thief and coward stealing "anarchy".Now the virus seeks to 
hijack the cell.Theres precedent.Tammy "Mitochondria" May

 >>With the proper atomic transaction protocols, the rest unfolds 
naturally. Money changers can profit by returning some fraction (e.g., 
0.99) of what they are given. <<

Im an expert on atomic energy(in favor) and micro-transactions,Dont listen 
to Dr jeckle May who scorns micro-payments.
{Whats a millicent ghetto Dr May? Oh never mind,Ill just have some more egg 
nog}

 >>Tim May


"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize
Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of
conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are
peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams

You can keep your slaves as well and all.No wonder george Mason refused to 
sign that crap.Tammy boys now free to frantically oil his barrel ,low 
calibre,large bore.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 18:38:44 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:38:44 +1100
Subject: "Shoes for industry!" Give May the Boot.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225132957.00a852d0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>"Shoes for industry!" The general point is that it is going to be very 
difficult to stop persons willing to die in their acts from carrying them out.

Like real anarchists? Ones that propertarians want to shoot.Hard to get em all.

 >>Planes are very fragile things and explosives can be formed into 
ordinary-looking objects (cases of computers, coffee mugs, belt buckles, 
etc.) and with very little vapor emission (smell).<<

Reputations are very fragile,tammies is gettin a bit on the nose.

  Chemical timers even let bombers get away (acid eating through something 
in a sealed ampoule...). An attacker who opens an aircraft emergency door 
in flight could also do a lot of damage (to the airline and travel 
industry, if nothing else). Fact is, soft targets abound.

Jim bell picked up on that.

  >>There are solutions, but not necessarily the police state measures now 
unfolding. We talked about this a lot after 911.<<

Your talking a lot.But your not sayin much.Say something once,why say it again?




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 19:21:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:21:50 +1100
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable
  coward.RIP.Got Gabe?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225133938.00a85050@pop.useoz.com>


 >> Interesting to note that the system you bash, for the sake of argument 
lets call it "timmayism" is really in favor of individual freedom (Tim, if 
you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe you to be, given your 
writtings, please correct me) <<

Well Tim just pissed on the faces of the Lib party faithful in a very 
recent post.Let the archive correct you.

 >>so things like "domination", "exploitation", "profit", etc... are 
perfectly acceptable so long as two people consentualy enter into an 
agreement. <<

Like those agreements that turned Thoreu into an implacable foe of the 
state? What planet are you living on?

 >>The simple problem with what you are describing is that is translates 
into "mattd decides whats is good for everyone else" <<

According to APster there can be no "assassination politics Tsar",Whats to 
stop a few quad anons lurking here to have me killed.My whereabouts and 
description are known.

 >>The very basic proof of this is that, given what you are writting, if I 
enter into an agreement with Mr. May to rent his property, an agreement I 
am perfectly acceptable to and that I am perfectly free to decline to enter 
into; he is being an evil landlor-profiteer. I am perfectly happy with the 
situation, but by your standards that wasn't a "free" (your definition of 
free baffles me) exchange.<<

Your free to enter tammies asshole,you seem easily baffled.Would you like 
to buy a bridge?

 >>Hey! I think Lenin might like talking to you, knock on Stalin's door 
too, since you just described communism. <<

The right scream 'commies' at us while the MLers scream 'Fash! ' This is 
how we know we are on the open road to Anarchy.

 >>| Anarchism is a variant of socialism an7ar7chism (nr-kzm) n. The theory 
or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and 
should be abolished. so7cial7ism (ssh-lzm) n. Any of various theories or 
systems of social organization in which the means of producing and 
distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government 
that often plans and controls the economy. Pick one, stick to it.

Ah...Libertarian socialism? Anarchism is shorter.I'm picking my nose,you 
can stick to your funkin wagnells.

 >>Maybe your read on "free market" is different then mine, but I would say 
a worker has as much right to not work at a company as the employer has to 
not employ that worker if he chooses not to. <<

Todays free markets would not survive the collapse of govts.Tammy may used 
to pretend to be a 'crypto-anarchist',in favor of the ,'collapse of 
govts'.Its getting harder to do that now with all these real anarchists 
about.Choose the two headed dog,anarcho-capitalism as is your free right.Im 
not trying to convert anyone.Good luck with it.

 >>Anarchism also stands against state socialism and "Communism," because...
  Isn't this a little different than what you said earlier? <<

Im against state socialism and "Communism" What did I say before? Im only 
human so I sometimes express contradictions.Im opposed to violence in 
politics and paradoxically support APster.Go figure.

 >>Anarchism is a very often misunderstood political theory (not ideology,<<
 >> Hey, enlighten us, show us some background studies, show us some 
legitimate writtings and test cases to prove what you say. I would imagine 
I am not alone in thinking you are full of shit with nothing to 
substantiate what you have to say. <<

Google is my home page.I have no other God than Google.There is only one 
Google.

 >>because ideology means a fixed set of prescribed ideas that are

Interesting that you should bring this up. We have seen nothing from
you that falls outside this category. In fact, we have seen nothing
from you that is worthwhile period. But since others might not know
this and because some of us feel bored,<<

Very punk of you,cool.

  we respond. If you really
care about the topics you blab about, then get yourself away from
that computer you must spend hours upon hours in front of, get
yourself into a library and in a few years, come on out and lets
have intelligent discussions. Read up on different political ideas
and systems, different ideologies and pick the one you like best.<<

Like Read in the encyclopedia brittanica on anarchism?Yeah I havent seen 
that yet.

 >>The impression one gets from reading what you write (other than,
what the fuck, this list used to have decent shit on it)<<

When Jimmy B was here is still interesting reading,soightonly.

 >> is that you
have no idea what you are talking about, you musta picked up a
little pamplet somewhere that said "anarchy is cool, we bust up
stores in the name of freedom" and gone with it.<<

Dear Abbie,shame he's not with us and creeps like tammy may are.

  >>If you are just
wasting our time here, which is the more likely explanation, then
well, I just hope you don't actually believe the shit you write,
there are plenty other stupid people in the world, it would have
been nice if this list didn't attract as many as it seems to. --Gabe

Well we didnt approach the godwin la-grange point so maybe Ill keep writing 
this list till some patents run out.There's some thing called a filter? 
tammy may show you how to use it.Dont let him pick your pockets,or 
cornpatch ya though.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 19:47:35 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:47:35 +1100
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable
  coward.RIP. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225142320.00a86eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe > you to be, 
given your writtings, please correct me)

Yeah, I favor freedom and free markets. Obviously<<

So you've seen http://world.std.com/~mhuben/leftlib.html and 
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/ddfr.html  ?

You must have read "Cypherpunks, high-tech libertarians, and various others 
mistakenly think technology will eliminate the need for government (if not 
outright eliminate government.) at http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html

How long would todays freedom's and free markets survive the destruction of 
the state?

http://www.spunk.org/library/otherpol/critique/sp001277.txt

 >>Something I _don't_ favor is wasting time responding to weird rants like 
the ones from "mattd." The expression "get back on your medications" is 
sometimes overused on the Net, but in this case it clearly applies.

Is that what they mean by "Ad Hominem attack"? We call it "playing the 
man,not the ball",down under.

  >>This "mattd" person oscillates from fawning about "crypto anarchy"<<

When anarchy is not the may/friedman crock, anarcho-capitalism.

  >>to foaming that people like me should be hanged.<<

Not foaming,just offering up my humble proffr1 dollar for the rope.No 
wonder tammy hates APster and anarchy!
"The price of liberty is eternal vigilantism."

  >>All written in an illiterate, pseudo-dyslexic, run-on sentence, crude 
imitation of John Young.<<

Ill take that as a compliment from a pompous windsock like you taffy.

  >>I have yet to see a single idea come out of "mattd."<<

So this is your first response to one of my posts?

  >>There are more interesting fish to fry. --Tim May, Corralitos, 
California Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in 
foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist 
attacks." --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. <<

So tammies the shroedingers cat of the libertarian movement.CALCer to the 
rotten core he should fry in hell.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 20:07:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:07:17 +1100
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable ,
  coward.RIP. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225144947.00a84240@pop.useoz.com>


 >>| Anarchism is a variant of socialism > > an7ar7chism (nr-kzm) > n. > 
The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive > and 
undesirable and should be abolished.

Which is self-referential (it basically says that even anarchism will 
oppress). <<

Indeed.Especially where delegates are not rotated and revocable.See jamesd 
for the dangers anarchism in practise.
The Friedman/May "anarcho-capitalist" crock of shit would opress like 
HELL.BE AWARE! Dont let him get away with all thet CALCer crap here.Its 
ahirstoric,amoral,unrealistic insanity.

 >>so7cial7ism (ssh-lzm) > n. > Any of various theories or systems of 
social organization in which > the means of producing and distributing 
goods is owned collectively > or by a centralized government that often 
plans and controls the > economy. > > Pick one, stick to it.
Which raises an interesting question. How do you get everyone to behave the 
same way with the same levels of consideration under anarchism without some 
sort of universal standard (a central organization)? Who gets to decide it? 
What happens if somebody decides they don't want to play nice? How do you 
pay for it? <<

APster.Central organization,summits,world federations are all scalable and 
not to be feared as long as all democratically elected delegates are 
revocable and rotated.Its not rocket science.Everyone a remailer,(they will 
be essential,as will crypto)Everyone a mint,presumably when all the drug 
war prisoners are released there will be room for fraudsters.
Everyone an APster,.Justice by consensus complements then overtakes common 
law.Everyone a jury.
Warlords in the SW Quadrant? Put together a 'sandline' army and knock them 
out.Commo's opressing bears?
Lets all vote on nuking commie HQ.Operation soft drill International,only 
there will be no more 'nations'.
Can you dig it? CAN YOU DIG IT? Anarchy is not just a job; Its an Adventure.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 20:39:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:39:56 +1100
Subject: Everyone a Bank.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225152858.00a89420@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.terry.uga.edu/~selgin/#free_banking Better looking than 
Faustines fat apologist for the NWO of corporate fascism.Also some 
interesting reading for e-cash minded C/punks.Reminded me of a bank that 
started soon after the Oklahoma land rush with a tent and shingle.Extract...
"The claim that monetary systems can function smoothly in the absence of 
government regulations sometimes raises the question, Why do governments 
intervene in money? Although economic misunderstanding and pressure from 
special interests within the banking industry account for many observed 
forms of intervention, Lawrence White and I suggest, in our forthcoming 
Economic Inquiry paper, "A Fiscal Theory of Government's Role in Money," 
that government intervention in the money industry has largely been a 
result of fiscal pressures to extract revenue from money holders. "

They cant tax the web so I guess crypto-anarchy is not a question of 
if,now,but when.BUMs on seats.
Throughout the Western world,
December 24 -- January 1, "THE HOLIDAYS," is a
period of continuous merrymaking & zerowork.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 20:59:05 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:59:05 +1100
Subject: Argentina has decisively entered the road of revolution. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225155132.00a8dd00@pop.useoz.com>


Argentina - The Revolution has Begun

By Alan Woods

In scenes reminiscent of the fall of Saigon, the leaders of the government 
hastily packed their bags and fled by helicopter from the roof of the 
Presidential palace. Only these were not foreign invaders fleeing from
an army of national liberation, but an elected President fleeing from his 
own people. While the eyes of the world were diverted to the other war in 
Afghanistan, another war was raging. In the week before
Christmas, Argentina was at war. Not a war between nations, but a war 
between rich and poor, between haves and haves not - a war between the 
classes.

For the bourgeois press, this was a sudden descent into collective madness. 
"Argentina collapses into chaos" was a typical headline. Chaos there is. It 
is the chaos of the capitalist system, of the so-called market
economy that was supposed to have solved all the problems of Argentina, 
under the benevolent auspices of the IMF and the World Bank. More than a 
year ago observers warned that the austerity measures
imposed by the government, in obedience to IMF advice, were likely to lead 
to a rise in social tensions. Now they have been proved correct.

Argentina's president Fernando de la Rua was forced to resign after 
thousands of angry and impoverished protesters took to the streets of 
Buenos Aires in a revolt against the government's handling of a
devastating economic crisis. Before he did so, three days of social unrest, 
widespread looting and police repression left 27 people dead and more than 
150 wounded - the majority, poor people fighting for a crust of
bread, shot by the police.

We received the following e-mail from a subscriber in La Plata, Argentina:

"The president of Argentina Fernando de La Rua presented his resignation 
after a massive demonstration of the people that took place in the square 
of the Plaza de Mayo. After a television communication on
December 19 at 11.00 p.m., the people of the city of Buenos Aires poured 
onto the streets, singing and banging pots, in a spontaneous reaction 
against the president's speech. By 2.00 a.m. the square was full.

"The next morning people started to get together in the same square and 
outside the Congress. The police started to repress people who were showing 
their disagreement by peaceful means. At 4.00 p.m., the
people didn't wants to leave the square (that is a symbol of the working 
class struggle in the 1940s and 1970s). Some people began to loot stores 
and McDonalds, breaking all the windows of many foreign banks.
At 6.30 p.m. the president called for an alliance between the two major 
parties (UCR and PJ), but the opposition party refused such collaboration. 
The president at this moment is taping his resignation and tonight
the Argentineans will have a new president and elections in the next 
months. This is a victory in the battle against neo-liberalism."

Yes, this is an important victory. But what has been won is a battle, not 
the war itself.

The unrest erupted after the country's free market programme turned sour. 
In the past two years Argentina, long the wealthiest nation in Latin 
America, has been in the grip of a deepening political, social, and
economic crisis. Fernando de la Rua's government was following the standard 
prescription the IMF gives to economies facing financial troubles: slash 
the deficit, deflate the economy and hope that investor
confidence returns. In fact, far from solving the problems of the economy, 
these policies made them worse.

At bottom, the problem of the Argentinean ruling class is the colossal 
power of the proletariat, which prevents them from carrying out the vicious 
austerity policies dictated by the IMF to the end. In the past few
years, general strike after general strike has been called by Peronist 
labour unions, under the pressure of the working class. This meant that the 
Argentine capitalists could not stabilise the situation at the cost of the
working class - although it did carry out a series of vicious attacks on 
living standards. Argentina lurched towards a default this year from its $8 
billion loan as the IMF imposed ever-tighter conditions.
Unemployment soared and now stands at 18.3 percent.

The first wave of riots forced the resignation of the economy minister 
behind the austerity package, Domingo Cavallo. "Cavallo resigned after he 
saw 5,000 people banging pots and pans outside his home," a
source close to the former minister said. The spontaneous gathering outside 
Mr Cavallo's flat in the exclusive Palermo Chico suburb of Buenos Aires 
brought together people from all social classes, who kept up a
constant clatter from around 11.00 p.m. on Wednesday until yesterday 
morning. The pots and pans marches had been preceded by two days of food 
riots, with groups of up to 1,500 unemployed people breaking
into Wal-Marts and Carrefour supermarkets around the country.

"We're coming back and we'll be bringing all our neighbours," screamed Elsa 
Gomez, a 45-year-old mother of six, to workers at a supermarket at Buenos 
Aires' most exclusive shopping centre, after her group of
shanty town dwellers agreed not to storm the store in exchange for 250 bags 
of free food. "The real looters are in the government," said opposition 
legislator Alicia Castro, visiting the protesters at the Plaza de
Mayo yesterday. (The Guardian, December 21, 2001)

The anger of the impoverished masses finally boiled over in two days of 
rioting and looting that left at least 22 dead and scores of protesters 
injured in cities around the country. This was the most severe civil
unrest for more than a decade. In Buenos Aires, mounted police fought 
running battles with demonstrators demanding the president's resignation. 
Teargas and water cannons were deployed. Several hundred
people were in a standoff with police in the central square, Plaza de Mayo. 
The demonstrators included a middle-aged woman who, despite having had one 
of her toes hacked off by a horse's hoof, still railed
against 'this government's starvation plan'. She was referring to a 
zero-deficit austerity package imposed by the International Monetary Fund 
on Argentina, which is on the verge of defaulting on its $132 billion
(#90 billion) foreign debt. "'Argentina is empty,' said another protester. 
'My children want to leave this country, there is no future here, our 
politicians are too corrupt.'" (The Guardian, December 21, 2001)

Among the dead was a 15-year-old boy reportedly shot during the riots in 
Santa Fe province in the country's west. Other victims were thought to have 
been shot by shopkeepers trying to deter looters by firing into
the crowds. In Buenos Aires, a police officer guarding the doors of the 
congress from demonstrators trying to storm the building was killed by a 
paving stone hurled by a protester. The unions called two general
strikes.

The leaders of the Nation were besieged inside the congress building. "We 
are bunkered in here," said a TV journalist broadcasting from inside 
congress. "The legislators can't leave and nobody can get in." (The
Guardian, December 21, 2001) The president at first wanted to cling to 
office and only resigned after opposition parties refused his request to 
form a coalition. In a desperate attempt to hang onto power, Mr De
la Rua had spoken to the nation, asking the opposition Peronist party to 
join him in forging a new economic programme to "assure social peace". He 
had pledged to continue at his post. "I will carry out my duty until
the end," he said. But the terrified Peronists refused to accept the 
poisoned chalice. If De la Rua had not stepped down when he did, Argentina 
faced revolution. Neither the declaration of a state of emergency,
nor the bullets and tear gas of the police served to intimidate the masses. 
United in action, they developed a sense of their own collective might. 
Power was slipping out of the hands of the state and passing to the
streets.

A global crisis of capitalism

The main fear of the bourgeois is that the crisis is unfolding 
simultaneously in every sector of the world economy. The word "contagion" 
is being used to describe this phenomenon. This is the other face of
globalisation. In economics, as in politics, US imperialism is faced with 
the equivalent of bushfires everywhere. No sooner do they put out one fire, 
than another one flares up with even greater intensity. This is in
itself a graphic expression of the nature of the present epoch.

The crisis in Argentina did not originate there. It reflects the global 
instability of world capitalism. The collapse in Turkey at the start of 
2001 immediately affected the Polish zloty and the Brazilian real, which
suffered a devaluation of about 30 percent in the course of the year. This 
placed unbearable pressure on Argentina, its most important trading 
partner, whose exports were rendered completely uncompetitive.

Since the Argentinean peso is tied to the US dollar, devaluation was 
(theoretically) ruled out. Thus, the whole weight of the crisis was placed 
firmly on the shoulders of the Argentinean workers and the middle
class. This had serious social and political repercussions. There had 
already been a number of militant general strikes in the course of 2001. 
There was a massive protest vote in the general elections, and even an
insurrection in the northern town of General Mosconi where the unemployed 
and the workers took the running of all public affairs into their own 
hands. This was causing concern in Washington, where the IMF
initially provided funds to help to prop up the Argentinean economy. But 
now events have moved far beyond that.

The decision to introduce dramatic bank controls led to a run on the banks. 
On November 30, the country's banks lost $1.3 billion. The central bank's 
net reserves slumped by $1.7 billion. Overnight, the country,
which was one of the richest in the world, is bankrupt. Finance minister 
Domingo Cavallo once more went with his begging bowl to the IMF but was 
received in Washington with stony faces. The IMF, having
already provided Argentina loan arrangements amounting to $48 billion in 
the last year, had no intention of throwing good money after bad. Argentina 
was left to sink under the weight of its own debts.

The economy was now in a state resembling a dying man with a high fever. 
Interbank interest rates were pushed up to 1,000 percent. High interest 
rates helped to plunge the economy further into a slump that
already had all the hallmarks of a deep depression. The country was in a 
fatal downward spiral, where cause becomes effect, and vice-versa. A 
shrinking economy means falling tax revenues, which means both a
further curtailment of public spending and higher interest rates, and so 
on, until the bottom is reached. Unfortunately, the bottom is nowhere in 
sight yet.

Exchange markets were closed on the orders of the central bank to prevent a 
collapse of the financial system. Even if Argentina were to attempt to pay 
its debts by surrendering its reserves, it would only have
enough to last until "the middle of the next quarter", according to a 
report by Suisse Credit First Boston investment bank. Probably even this 
estimate is too optimistic. But in reality, there is no possibility of
Argentina paying its debts. The Argentine economy stands on the brink of a 
horrendous collapse and default, which can have serious effects throughout 
Latin America, and on a world scale.

The crisis in Argentina has sent tremors through the international markets. 
Markets across the world are watching to see whether the crisis would have 
a domino effect in other economies in Latin America and
further afield. The initial reaction of the economists, especially in the 
USA, were predictable. They claim that the crisis in Argentina is a purely 
local affair which will have no discernable effect elsewhere.

In Washington the White House said it saw few signs of financial contagion 
from the crisis. It reiterated its position that the new authorities should 
work with the International Monetary Fund to develop a
sustainable economic programme. But it was the IMF and its policies that 
brought about the present crisis. Fears that the economic crisis could 
spread have been dismissed by the White House, which displays the
same staggering ignorance of world economics as it does in the field of 
world politics.

"It does look like it's isolated to Argentina, and that's a helpful fact," 
said the White House spokesman, Ari Fleischer.

However, such a complacent view does not conform to the facts. So far, 
there have been few signs of the contagion that shook markets after the 
default and devaluation crises of Mexico, Russia and Brazil in the
1990s. But a default by Argentina would be the biggest in history. 
Abandonment of the currency board system is also likely to have uncertain 
consequences. A severe devaluation of the Argentine peso will harm
Brazil - Argentina's main trading partner. And the effects of this 
instability will hit other so-called emerging markets. Already it has 
caused a sharp decline of the South African rand, and the tremors are reaching
Hong Kong. The Guardian (December 22, 2001) warned: "Wall Street has so far 
largely ignored events in its own economic backyard. But Argentina is not 
an inconsequential economy. It is inconceivable, in a
global economy, that its effective bankruptcy will not have knock-on 
effects. As ever, the most painful of these will come from unexpected 
directions."

Latin America is now in the deepest economic crisis since the war. There is 
not a single stable bourgeois regime from Tierra del Fuego to the Rio 
Grande. The objective conditions for socialist revolution have been
ripe in the ex-colonial countries for at least half a century. In fact, 
they are rotten-ripe for revolution. Decaying capitalism threatens to 
plunge one country after another into barbarism. There is no way the
imperialists can stop this, no matter how many bombs they drop. The only 
lasting order that is possible in Argentina is a revolutionary order, based 
on the assumption of power by the working class, in alliance with the small 
businessmen, the small farmers, the unemployed,
the women and the youth.

The central slogan of this new power is the general strike. But the general 
strike must be organised and prepared. The only way to guarantee that the 
movement will take place in an organised manner, with no
rioting and looting, is through the creation of action committees, elected 
committees of the workers, which must be broadened to include the elected 
representatives of the unemployed, the small shopkeepers, the
students, and all elements of the population except the exploiters.

The committees should organise transportation and the distribution of food 
and other necessities of life to the poorest sections of the population. 
They must control prices and patrol the streets to maintain order and
fight reaction. In order to fulfil these functions, they will need to 
acquire arms. An appeal should be made to the soldiers and police to set up 
elected committees, purge their ranks of fascists and other reactionaries
and link up with the workers' committees.The recent street
battles showed that the workers and youth had lost all fear of the police 
and the state and prepared to fight and die if necessary, to defend their 
just cause.
Only a radical reconstruction of society from top to bottom can show a way 
out of the impasse. In the coming period, the question will be posed 
bluntly: either the greatest of victories or
the most terrible of defeats. Its repercussions would be felt in the USA, 
and on a world scale. Instead of preparing new military interventions 
against the peoples of Asia, Africa and Latin America, but would be faced with
revolutions everywhere. Bravo to our southern Companeros!
by Danny 1:23pm Mon Dec 24 '01
Our hats off to the heroic Argentine workers, who have suffered so much 
misery & epxloitation from their own country's compradors of globalized 
Private Capital. Only this time the bloodsuckers made a complete economic 
mess, thanks to the IMF/"free trade" & WTO's "poverty reduction" measures.
In the coming months, the progressives will need support, analytical 
clarity, and an alternative economic & political program to advance a New 
Collective Society. Let all progressives around the world offer them both 
moral & material support, and the peoples will have won a pivotal victory 
against the New International Terrorist(the hegemony of Capital.)
Look to South America for solution (english)
by Fred P 5:40pm Mon Dec 24 '01
good information - but it is also important to point out that IMF/World 
Bank loans are also a cause of major instability in Ecuador, Bolivia and 
Colombia, countries which all have huge debts that are currently unpayable.
Structural adjustment programs led to a million human march on Ecuador's 
capitol and a temporary replacement of the executive branch of the 
government there.
Bolivia is currently in crisis because poverty stricken farmers are 
revolting.Crypto-anarchist Code red.
A "mexican wave" of Tsunami proportions may sweep the planet.Can you dig 
it? CAN YOU DIG IT!




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 25 16:25:52 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:25:52 -0800
Subject: Time to unsubscribe...
In-Reply-To: <20011225221451.28575.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <1E4E8E9B-F997-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 25, 2001, at 02:14 PM, Dr. Evil wrote:

>>> Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling
>>> from mattd at useoz.com and ravage at ...  The few bits of wonderfully
>>> interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to
>>> motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters.  If someone knows
>>> of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.
>>
>> Since you seem to be ignorant msoft user, use made-for-idiots yahoo
>> throwaway and set this in the "block addresses" (under options):
>
> Just for the record, I'm not an ignorant MS user.  I'm an ignorant
> user of something else, far more subtle.
>
> [list snipped]
>
> Choate and Mattd seem to be responsible for more than half the
> traffic, and basically none of the value on this list.  I think it
> would be almost tolerable without them on it.  Ok, time to figure out
> the mysteries of filtering.
>

I use two kinds of filtering:

1. Mail filters. For nearly 10 years, I used Eudora and Eudora Pro. Now 
I am using OS X Mail, but may switch to Entourage (packaged with 
Microsoft Office). All of these mail filters are incredibly easy to 
learn to use. (Being that OS X is largely FreeBSD, I'm sure I could use 
regular expression filtering, but so far, no need.)

2. Eric Murray's lne.com node, which filters out any source not 
subscribed to the list, basically.

Choate and mattd get filtered into the trash by my own filters, though I 
can see their posts in the garbage if I get bored. (Also, mattd doesn't 
consistently filter into the trash properly...no idea why. If I manually 
run the filters, it works.)

Filtering mail is a necessity these days.


--Tim May
"Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David 
Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11




From adam at homeport.org  Tue Dec 25 13:38:06 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:38:06 -0500
Subject: Illusional delusions
In-Reply-To: 
References:  
Message-ID: <20011225163806.A22507@weathership.homeport.org>


On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 12:53:18AM -0600, someone claiming to be Black Unicorn wrote:
| > Thinking aloud ... this may be silly:
| >
| > Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange,
| > maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by
| > defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties
| > should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own
| > currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating
| > new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly
| > connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it
| > was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone
| > whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business
| > for reputation building. Again, hardly new.
| 
| Not new?  Name 5 prominent reputation brokers.  Reputation services?
| Reputation clearing agents?  What manner of reputation do they measure?
| Trustworthiness?  Identity?  Creditworthiness?  One?  None?  All?  (I can
| only think of two, neither of which approach the level of sophistication you
| propose here).

Dun and Bradstreet
Standard and Poors 
Consumers Union
Visa
Experian
The Food and Drug Administration (interesting because you'll sometimes 
see "Approved by the US FDA" on not-for-the-US packaging, but they're
number 6 on my list.)

Just had to pick that nit.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From adam at homeport.org  Tue Dec 25 13:50:53 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:50:53 -0500
Subject: Big Bang Thought Experiment
In-Reply-To: <1631111A-F95F-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3C283BC0.26903.2B1614@localhost>
  <1631111A-F95F-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011225165053.A22566@weathership.homeport.org>


Many posts have talked about a both a 'fixed level' of money, and a
commission.  I find this odd, especially as there will be no way to
add funds to the system.  If you have a commission on every exchange,
the money essentially deflates (there will be less of it tomorow than
there is today, making it more scarce, and thus more valuable.)  Thus it makes
sense to hold onto it, making it illiquid, which is a bad thing for a
currency.  Since this is magic money, why not issue more of it now and 
again? 

Adam



On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 09:44:46AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
| On Tuesday, December 25, 2001, at 08:41 AM, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
| 
| > On 24 Dec 2001, at 9:40, Nomen Nescio wrote:
| >> How simple can an ecash mint be?
| >>
| >> For the simplest case there should be no accounts.  All the mint does 
| >> is
| >> exchange coins for other coins.  There are no customer lists, no 
| >> records
| >> of transactions (except as needed for double-spending detection).
| >
| > In order to give value to ecoins, it is necessarily to make them
| > convertible with some other currency, normally an account based
| > currency. It is difficult to do this without supporting accounts.
| >
| > One could of course have a pile of gold, and physically and in
| > person exchange coins for physical gold, but it is considerably
| > more convenient to exchange coins for account based money,
| > such as e-gold.  It is difficult to make such transactions entirely
| > atomic, because of the possibility that something might go wrong,
| > requiring durable state.  We then need a database key for that
| > state.  Such a database key looks rather like an account
| 
| Here's a thought experiment: Issue a fixed amount of blinded tokens, for 
| free, and see what happens. How they would be distributed is another 
| topic. But the issuer would promise to exchange them (or make change) in 
| some specified way, e.g., a 1% commission. This would result in 
| fractional tokens, perhaps in the 1-5-10-25-50-100 denominations common 
| with ordinary coins.
| 
| (Chaum tried something similar in 1995. I'm not suggesting precisely the 
| same thing. Chaum's experiment did not generate much interest, as this 
| experiment might not, either.)
| 
| The thought experiment is that it is possible that the "thing of value" 
| is the utility of the token, not some underlying store of value. How 
| others might bid for these tokens, possibly bidding with "real money," 
| would be of no concern to the mint.
| 
| Depends on confidence that the number of tokens is in fact fixed, and 
| that forging of new tokens is not easy.
| 
| This is what I hoped Mojo would demonstrate.
| 
| More discussion:
| 
| 1. Must money be tied to intrinsic stores of value? I think the answer 
| is clearly "No." The U.S. dollar is not in any direct way tied to 
| anything except _other dollars_. Obviously. True, there are already many 
| things already valued in dollars--land, things, houses, loans, taxes, 
| salaries--so there is a somewhat circular argument that echoes what 
| Danny DeVito said in the recent movie "Heist": "Money is money, that's 
| why they call it "money"!" (paraphrased)
| 
| 2. How much would need to be issued? Depends on a lot of factors. 
| Numbers of users, interest in the experiment, evolution of markets.
| 
| 3. Isn't it "unfair" to randomly issue money and then see what happens?
| 
| 4. Are there better ways to issue the money? There could be a 
| preliminary auction, denominated in dollars and with no concern for 
| anonymity/untraceability. (Since the act of moneychanging generates 
| blinded new tokens, it matters not that the original purchasers are 
| traceable. All they need to do is change their money.)
| 
| 5. Who might use it? Let the market(s) decide. Remailers, warez....
| 
| Comment: I'm not trying to trivialize the issues. There are issues with 
| dealing with double-spending ("first to redeem" is a good fix), transfer 
| deadlock (when Alice and Bob exchange something for some token...what if 
| one walks away? A deadlock issue with real money, as with exchanging 
| suitcases of cocaine for suitcases of dollars), and other issues.
| 
| And it is quite possible that such an experiment would produce little 
| interest.
| 
| But the cost of trying such an experiment is not especially great. Many 
| such experiments/releases later, we may have learned some interesting 
| things. And possibly one such release will be robust enough (issues 
| about numbers of moneychangers, robustness of mints, etc.) that it 
| nucleates a functioning money system for at least some interesting 
| cypherspace uses.
| 
| --Tim May
| 
| 
| "Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But 
| stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is 
| no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." 
| --Robert A. Heinlein

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 25 17:41:50 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 17:41:50 -0800
Subject: Big Bang Thought Experiment
In-Reply-To: <20011225165053.A22566@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, December 25, 2001, at 01:50 PM, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Many posts have talked about a both a 'fixed level' of money, and a
> commission.  I find this odd, especially as there will be no way to
> add funds to the system.  If you have a commission on every exchange,
> the money essentially deflates (there will be less of it tomorow than
> there is today, making it more scarce, and thus more valuable.)  Thus 
> it makes
> sense to hold onto it, making it illiquid, which is a bad thing for a
> currency.  Since this is magic money, why not issue more of it now and
> again?

For all intents and purposes, the total supply of gold has been 
relatively constant for decades. A fraction of the total is mined and 
brought to market each year, but only a small fraction of the total.

And yet the assay and marking cost (several percent) has not crippled 
gold.

Further, the fee for assaying and marking (melting, minting, stamping 
gold bars, etc.) is a fee for a service, and goes back into circulation. 
I expect the operators of a money changing operation would similarly 
aggregate their 1% or whatever and use the aggregated fee as their 
compensation for providing a service.

Even if the money deflates, so? If it encourages people to hang on to 
their money, so?

(I made most of my money by _not_ spending what I earned.)

In any case, let's see how the experiment turns out. Let anyone try any 
approach they wish, ranging from "the total amount of money is 1" to "I 
generate 30% more money in the system every year."  As I said, I expect 
multiple tries, multiple experiments. Right now we are more limited by 
the notion that Some Big Startup has to Get it Right the First Time.


--Tim May
""Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who 
approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but 
downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." 
--Patrick Henry




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 25 17:51:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 17:51:01 -0800
Subject: Illusional delusions
In-Reply-To: <20011225163806.A22507@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: <03C14CEA-F9A3-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 25, 2001, at 01:38 PM, Adam Shostack wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 12:53:18AM -0600, someone claiming to be Black 
> Unicorn wrote:
> | Not new?  Name 5 prominent reputation brokers.  Reputation services?
> | Reputation clearing agents?  What manner of reputation do they 
> measure?
> | Trustworthiness?  Identity?  Creditworthiness?  One?  None?  All?  (I 
> can
> | only think of two, neither of which approach the level of 
> sophistication you
> | propose here).
>
> Dun and Bradstreet
> Standard and Poors
> Consumers Union
> Visa
> Experian
> The Food and Drug Administration (interesting because you'll sometimes
> see "Approved by the US FDA" on not-for-the-US packaging, but they're
> number 6 on my list.)
>
> Just had to pick that nit.

I didn't read far enough into BU's piece to see him asking such a silly 
question, or I would have also offered S&P and D&B as examples. 
"Foobarcorp's rating has been lowered from AAA to AA." Like it or not, 
they are in the business of reputation rating.

So is a Notary Public. So is a restaurant reviewer in a newspaper. So 
are Siskel and Ebert, er, Ebert and That New Guy.

So are the kosher meat dudes who stamp "Kosher" on food approved for 
consumption by Jews.

So are the "PC Labs" and other reviewers of new PC hardware.

We are swimming in a sea of such reputation services, just as we are 
swimming in what is basically an anarchic ocean.

--Tim May
"Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little 
bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now 
racing down, with American flags fluttering."-- Tim May, on events 
following 9/11/2001




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 23:14:16 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:14:16 +1100
Subject: Illusional delusions 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225174822.00a84240@pop.useoz.com>


 >>The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined
by the state, from the equation.
Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties
that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to
convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to
rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money
launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper
cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is
not a solution.
This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop
copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof
watermarks.
Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in
any form or shape.
Thinking aloud ... this may be silly:
Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange,
maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by
defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties
should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own
currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating
new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly
connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it
was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone
whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business
for reputation building. Again, hardly new.
This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain
much from it anyway. Going through a series of intermediaries to buy
some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the
state's sight.
In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for
centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business
will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad.
So, tell me, is this silly ?<<

Yes,sadly,because your talking about barter(BUMs or Barter Unit of 
Money)These would be assessed as dollars,pounds,francs,marks etc for the 
purposes of taxation.
Their very existence would be portrayed in court as evidence of 
malfeasance,much like the AP essay was in the drey..bell case.
As soon as the state feels sufficiently threatened, as it probably will 
very shortly,
it'll crackdown,much the same as its doing now to hawala.So you need mass 
civil disobedience to bring down the shared hallucination that we somehow 
need a state to redistribute in an equitable and sustainable way.Revolution 
in short.Failing that you need APster to take on the tax collectors and the 
agents investigating their disappearance.Again revolution follows on 
quickly.The state doesn't like its servants getting the chop.Small business 
will and does suffer under the iron heel of the state.Crypto-anarchy based 
on bomb-proof remailers,APster and BUMs is desirable and close through both 
technical and political advances.The state should suffer,big business 
should suffer.Under the present blinkered vision of capitalist 
crypto-anarchy they have little to fear.

"Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through the
spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax system,
through even more direct applications of the right tools at the right times.
When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs."
Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold




From piolenc at mozcom.com  Tue Dec 25 02:17:11 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:17:11 +0800
Subject: Argentina has decisively entered the road of revolution.
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225155132.00a8dd00@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C285227.7FB56368@mozcom.com>


Great propaganda piece. Take a revolt against government manipulation of
the economy and portray it as the death of capitalism...

Kinda gives himself away by describing the fall of Saigon as "foreign
invaders fleeing from an army of national liberation."

Marc de Piolenc

mattd wrote:
> 
> Argentina - The Revolution has Begun
> 
> By Alan Woods

> 
> For the bourgeois press, this was a sudden descent into collective madness.
> "Argentina collapses into chaos" was a typical headline. Chaos there is. It
> is the chaos of the capitalist system, of the so-called market
> economy that was supposed to have solved all the problems of Argentina,
> under the benevolent auspices of the IMF and the World Bank.





From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 23:25:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:25:56 +1100
Subject: Soft drilling to end "culture of violence"?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225182349.00a88910@pop.useoz.com>


President Olusegun Obasanjo canceled a trip to Zimbabwe and called an 
emergency Cabinet meeting. Afterward his spokesman, Tunji Oseni, issued a 
statement saying "no effort will be spared" to end Nigeria's "culture of 
violence in politics." Later Monday, the president ordered army troops into 
the streets of Osun state amid fears of violence, and state television 
announced a nighttime curfew in the state.
Nigeria, Africa's most populous nation with 120 million people, is 
regularly rocked by violent feuding along political, ethnic and religious 
lines.
Bose Ehindero, a relative of Ige who answered the phone at the official's 
residence Monday morning, said Ige and his wife, Tinuke Ige, were in their 
bedroom when the assailants burst in on them.
He was shot despite pleas from his wife, an appeals court judge, to spare 
his life, Ehindero added.
A team of police officers assigned to protect Ige were away from their 
posts eating dinner at the time, Ehindero said.
The Lagos daily newspaper ThisDay speculated the killing was linked to a 
violent political feud between the state's governor and his deputy.
Last week, an Osun state legislator, Odunayo Olagbaju, was bludgeoned to 
death outside his home in the city of Ife, provoking riots in the city. 
Five people were reported killed. Olagbaju had been a supporter of Osun 
Deputy Gov. Iyiola Omisore.
A few days ago, Ige reportedly escaped a mob attack in Ife in which his hat 
was knocked off and his glasses broken. Ige had apparently backed Osun 
State Gov. Bamidele Adebisi Akande, ThisDay said.
Ige was the founder of one of Nigeria's three registered political parties, 
the Alliance for Democracy. Just weeks ago, he was chosen to serve in 2002 
on the prestigious U.N. international law commission.
Obasanjo quickly recruited Ige into his government following 1999 elections 
that ended military rule, even though the two had campaigned for opposing 
parties. Like Obasanjo, Ige had spent time in prison under the junta and 
was a Yoruba, the predominant ethnic group in Nigeria's southwest.
Ige led the World Council of Churches' anti-racism campaign in the early 
1970s and later became governor of Oyo State during Nigeria's previous 
period of civilian rule, 1979-83.
He was generally well-liked by many of his fellow Yorubas but distrusted by 
some northerners for the years he spent campaigning against the 
northern-dominated military.
As justice minister, he also drew criticism from some northern Muslims for 
statements against moves by several states to implement Islamic law.
Ige also gained the wrath of state governments in the Niger Delta, where he 
was seen as responsible for a ruling that restricts the states' earnings 
from offshore oil drilling. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 24 23:34:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:34:50 +1100
Subject: "Your either with choate or your with the Terrorists"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225183132.00a8beb0@pop.useoz.com>


What is a slacker? The question is beginning to sound as inane as the 
answers that have sprung out of the media. It cannot be true that a slacker 
is in transition between college and the real world, since this demands an 
acceptance of the concept "real world." Linklater's film seems to suggest 
that a slacker is in a transition, not between school and employment, but 
between the dominant conception of reality and his or her own construction 
of reality.
Linklater has superbly crafted this film to fit the style of the community 
and characters he tries to portray. The camera never remains focused on one 
character or event, choosing instead to wander among the nearly 100 
characters involved. We see a small slice of the character's life, never to 
return to him or her again. This can be frustrating to some audiences, but 
"Slacker" never falls prey to being gimmicky for the sake of the gimmick.
The camera's choice is apparently random, but not without significance. In 
the opening scene, Linklater's character delivers a monologue about a book 
that he "must have written" while dreaming on a bus. He asserts that in any 
situation where we make a choice, each possible path we could have taken 
becomes a reality. Besides the implication that he could have, should have 
or did stay at the bus station (where, as he says, he probably would have 
met a girl), Linklater also indicates that the medium of film is the 
perpetuator of a dominant ideology.
"We're kind of trapped in this one reality, restriction type of thing," he 
says, a clue that the film will concentrate on the importance of reality 
and film to the future of our generation.
 From Linklater, the camera begins its journey around Austin. We overhear 
interesting conversations on a wide range of topics, from the Smurfs to 
George Bush, light-blue collar families and, of course, JFK assassination 
theories. The discussions are not only amusing, but often poignant, and 
show a group of people expressing themselves within a reality all their own.
Somewhere in the middle of the film, all of the inaction becomes a bit 
depressing. We have seen a young man run over his mother, then passively 
submit to the police; we have seen a guy who can't even go outside and 
relax because it involves preparation; and in the funniest and saddest 
scene, we have seen a woman who has a sure-fire way of making money: 
selling Madonna's pap smear (although someone stoled [sic] one of the pubic 
hairs). One may want to scream, "What is the point here?"
This sentiment is shared by the older generation in the film. Wandering by 
a woman caught for shoplifting, an old man quips to his daughter, "I'm 
always glad to see any young person doing something." However, this man is 
not a member of the dominant, work-hard, capitalist society. He is, 
instead, an anarchist, with his own subcultural philosophy. Of the man who 
killed President William McKinley, he says the 100 more like him could have 
changed the world. This older idealist wishes that young people would act 
to change the society that they refuse to join, much like he did in 
fighting the Spanish Civil War. Unfortunately, as his daughter points out, 
the old man was in Spain in 1955, a bit too late to have been involved in 
the struggle.
Does this mean Linklater is attacking the "left" as crazy ideologues? This 
seems implausible considering his general reverence toward these people. 
The fact that the old man didn't fight is one particular reality, but not 
the reality that he accepts. The Civil War is the embodiment of his 
beliefs, and he feels he was there, trying to make a difference. Linklater 
sympathizes with him, as well as the other characters. They have not yet 
found a framework for destructive, subversive or any other type of action.
So the characters have not found "framework." If Linklater suggests no 
possibility of a means of expression, then the concept of a framework is 
merely an excuse for inaction. But Linklater portrays video and film as 
such a framework, a hope for the future.
In one instance, a guy with a television strapped to his back talks about 
the "psychic power" of the televised image. He does not believe in video as 
an automatic cure-all, but sees its possibilities: "We need it to work for 
us, not us for it." Indeed, the last group we see experiments with the 
image in an attempt to make it work for them. Somewhere in the editing of 
their camerawork lies Linklater's hopes.
No review of "Slacker" can do more than scratch the surface. It is a work 
of depth, one of the most forward-looking, subversive, hopeful films ever 
produced. Well-acted, well-photographed and carefully crafted, "Slacker" 
proves that $23,000 and dedication can still result in important cinema.
by adam joyce
brooklyn, ny
2001-12-24      Excerpt from www.spleen.org




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Dec 25 15:57:49 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:57:49 -0500
Subject: Time to unsubscribe...
In-Reply-To: <20011225221451.28575.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <52cc879c34a7f1bdd3339cbef8ca23f2@dizum.com>
  <20011225221451.28575.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20011225185749.B27706@ils.unc.edu>


For procmail (available on Linux systems; for other
Unix systems download from procmail.org):

1. Use a .forward file to forward to procmail:

Mine looks like this, your might have a different
path:

"|exec /usr/local/bin/procmail"

2. Edit a .procmailrc for procmail to use.  It's
not that hard, there are some good docs ("man procmailrc")

Some extracts from mine:

-- start of snippet from .procmailrc
PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin/
MAILDIR=$HOME/mail
DEFAULT=/var/mail/gbnewby
LOGFILE=$MAILDIR/procmail.log

# Backup the last 32 messages (per 'man procmailex')
:0 c
backup
:0 ic
| cd backup && rm -f dummy `ls -t msg.* | sed -e 1,32d`

# Temporary redirects while I'm out of town:
#:0 H
#* cypherpunk
#  cypher-unread

# Grep the header for @toad.com; put it in 'toad' mail folder
# This might cut down on cypherpunks spam
:0 H
* @toad.com
  spam

:0 H
* ^Subject:.*Snowhite
  spam

# tcmay's a pain in the ass
:0 H
* From:.*tcmay at got.net
  spam

# Yes, people still use friend at public.com!
:0
* ^To: Friend at public.com
  spam

# Everything else just gets appended to DEFAULT
-- end of snippet


In the above, "spam" is a mail folder (literally, just a file).
So, you can still read the stuff there...  if you want to 
delete it permanently, use /dev/null instead of "spam"

This will work fine with any Unix mail program that uses
local files -- you'd need something different if you use
IMAP or POP.

3. test, test test!!!  You can do much more sophisticated
filtering with procmail, but I find that most of what I want
is to filter the To, From or Subject line based on a
string or substring.

  -- Greg


On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 10:14:51PM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
> 
> > >Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling
> > >from mattd at useoz.com and ravage at ...  The few bits of wonderfully
> > >interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to
> > >motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters.  If someone knows
> > >of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.
> > 
> > Since you seem to be ignorant msoft user, use made-for-idiots yahoo
> > throwaway and set this in the "block addresses" (under options):
> 
> Just for the record, I'm not an ignorant MS user.  I'm an ignorant
> user of something else, far more subtle.
> 
> [list snipped]
> 
> Choate and Mattd seem to be responsible for more than half the
> traffic, and basically none of the value on this list.  I think it
> would be almost tolerable without them on it.  Ok, time to figure out
> the mysteries of filtering.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 00:01:18 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:01:18 +1100
Subject: Shiver me timbers.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225184710.00a8b0c0@pop.useoz.com>


Today's Birthdays
English physicist and mathematician Sir Isaac Newton, considered one of the 
most important scientists of all time, was born on this day in 1642.
Newtons Sleep by Ursula K Le Guin
On a future Earth of environmental devastation and political instability, 
rapidly mutating viruses have caused billions of deaths, and the future of 
the human race is in jeopardy. When a select group of pragmatists take 
residence in an orbiting habitat, the occupants begin to see visions of the 
unfortunates they left behind, and some fear that the environmental 
deprivation has bridged the gap between reality and hallucination. 1991
1907 -- Activist journalist I. F. "Izzy" Stone, US
journalist, lives to tell it like it is, Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania.
Washington editor of "The Nation" magazine &
founder of the legendary "I. F. Stone's Weekly",
Stone specialized in publishing
information ignored by the corporate media
1913 -- "The Italian Hall Disaster." In Calumet,
Michigan, striking copper miners & their children are
having a Christmas celebration; strike-breakers outside
bar the doors then raise a false fire alarm.
In the ensuing stampede, 73 (roughly half are children)
are crushed or suffocated.
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndex.html
http://members.xoom.com/elstongunn/1913.html
1914 -- Wilderness advocate John Muir dies, Los
Angeles, California.
2001-dec 30.Tim May savaged to death
by own security dogs.
Buried at sea.no flowers.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 00:21:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:21:01 +1100
Subject: anarchocrapitalism@Timmaysucks.com
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225191713.00a8eeb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/anarchist817/anarcho_capitalism.html

Anarcho-Capitalism is a name given to a philosophy that some call 
"Free-Market Anarchism," or sometimes the less apt "Libertarianism." (Not 
all those who call themselves Libertarians are Anarcho-Capitalists. Kind of 
confusing, huh?)
Grammatically speaking, Anarcho-Capitalism is an oxymoron, which in my 
opinion makes it unsound as a philosophy. Anarchists are opposed to the 
economic policies of Capitalism, and anyone claiming to be an 
'Anarcho-Capitalist' simply does not grasp the true meaning of Anarchism. 
Usually calling themselves Libertarians, Anarcho-Capitalists are simply 
people who have no interest in changing the fundamental nature of society.
People like tim may and david 
friedman.                                                   Font: 
Daschle-Anthrax-Bold




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 00:31:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:31:24 +1100
Subject: MotherTucker.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225192949.00a8d250@pop.useoz.com>


Tucker often claimed that an anarchist could not be a communist! In State 
Socialism and Anarchism he stated that anarchism was "an ideal utterly 
inconsistent with that of those Communists who falsely call themselves 
Anarchists while at the same time advocating a regime of Archism fully as 
despotic as that of the State Socialists themselves." ["State Socialism and 
Anarchism", Instead of a Book, pp. 15-16]
While modern social anarchists follow Kropotkin in not denying Proudhon or 
Tucker as anarchists, we do deny the anarchist title to supporters of 
capitalism. Why? Simply because anarchism as a political movement (as 
opposed to a dictionary definition) has always been anti-capitalist and 
against capitalist wage slavery, exploitation and oppression. In other 
words, anarchism (in all its forms) has always been associated with 
specific political and economic ideas. Both Tucker and Kropotkin defined 
their anarchism as an opposition to both state and capitalism. To quote 
Tucker on the subject:
"Liberty insists. . . [on] the abolition of the State and the abolition of 
usury; on no more government of man by man, and no more exploitation of man 
by man." [cited in Native American Anarchism - A Study of Left-Wing 
American Individualism by Eunice Schuster, p. 140]
Kropotkin defined anarchism as "the no-government system of socialism." 
[Kropotkin's Revolutionary Pamphlets, p. 46] Malatesta argued that "when 
[people] sought to overthrow both State and property -- then it was anarchy 
was born" and, like Tucker, aimed for "the complete destruction of the 
domination and exploitation of man by man." [Life and Ideas, p. 19, pp. 
22-28] Indeed every leading anarchist theorist defined anarchism as 
opposition to government and exploitation. Thus Brain Morris' excellent 
summary:
"Another criticism of anarchism is that it has a narrow view of politics: 
that it sees the state as the fount of all evil, ignoring other aspects of 
social and economic life. This is a misrepresentation of anarchism. It 
partly derives from the way anarchism has been defined [in dictionaries, 
for example], and partly because Marxist historians have tried to exclude 
anarchism from the broader socialist movement. But when one examines the 
writings of classical anarchists. . . as well as the character of anarchist 
movements. . . it is clearly evident that it has never had this limited 
vision. It has always challenged all forms of authority and exploitation, 
and has been equally critical of capitalism and religion as it has been of 
the state." ["Anthropology and Anarchism," Anarchy: A Journal of Desire 
Armed no. 45, p. 40]




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 00:41:41 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:41:41 +1100
Subject: Fatal Exception
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225194020.00a8b700@pop.useoz.com>


"The term anarchy comes from the Greek, and essentially means 'no ruler.' 
Anarchists are people who reject all forms of government or coercive 
authority, all forms of hierarchy and domination. They are therefore 
opposed to what the Mexican anarchist Flores Magon called the 'sombre 
trinity' -- state, capital and the church. Anarchists are thus opposed to 
both capitalism and to the state, as well as to all forms of religious 
authority. But anarchists also seek to establish or bring about by varying 
means, a condition of anarchy, that is, a decentralised society without 
coercive institutions, a society organised through a federation of 
voluntary associations. Contemporary 'right-wing' libertarians . . . who 
are often described as 'anarchocapitalists' and who fervently defend 
capitalism, are not in any real sense anarchists." [Op. Cit., p. 38]
Rather than call themselves by a name which reflects their origins in 
liberalism (and not anarchism), the "anarcho"-capitalists have instead seen 
fit to try and appropriate the name of anarchism and, in order to do so, 
ignore key aspects of anarchist theory in the process. Little wonder, then, 
they try and prove their anarchist credentials via dictionary definitions 
rather than from the anarchist movement itself
Here at http://flag.blackened.net/intanark/faq/append11.html#app5




From jya at pipeline.com  Tue Dec 25 20:03:52 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 20:03:52 -0800
Subject: Explosive dicks (was: C4 commercial web page)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


So far nothing about the Reid incident distinguishes it
from a low-level security test.

Whether Reid was informed of his role by the operation
planners could be questioned.

And whether the planners were "terrorists" or the counter-
terrorism industry is a fair question.

Time magazine says in its December 31 edition:

  "White House aides tell Time they are envisioning a war 
  against terrorism that could last 50 years. As a model for 
  fashioning a long-term game plan, Bush aides have been 
  looking at old cold-war national-security doucments, such 
  as NSC-68, a plan the Truman Administration drafted in 
  1950 to contain the Soviets."

Terrorism is a godsend for those forever looking for terrifying
enemies of the state, family, church.

NSC-68:

  http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nsc-hst/nsc-68.htm

Mattd is a guy I'd like at my back in a fight. I wouldn't expect
him to climb a tree like a scardy cat to lick his weeping anus.




From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Dec 25 12:20:18 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:20:18 +0100 (CET)
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html
Message-ID: <562104bf445a18b63b7677354160b46b@dizum.com>


> This just gets better and better...
>
> "Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration announced Sunday all
> U.S. airports are required to add random shoe checks of passengers to the
> already established practice of random baggage checks." 

Those of us travelling over the holidays can be thankful that the
bomber did not hide the explosives up his ass.




From Heather19fx at aol.com  Tue Dec 25 21:50:25 2001
From: Heather19fx at aol.com (Heather19fx at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 21:50:25 -0800
Subject: heya
Message-ID: <200112260550.VAA28249@modi.greco.com>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (Heather19fx at aol.com) on Tuesday, December 25, 2001 at 21:50:25
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

message:    Hi, my name is Heather and I am a 19 year old female from San Diego, California.  Ever since my 14th birthday, I have been really sexually active, but I am still a virgin.  Now I am 19 and away from home, attending school at San Diego State University and sharing a dorm with four of my girlfriends and are all VERY turned on to meet a guy and satisfy ALL of his pleasures.  To see our sexy pictures we took just last week and to meet some other couples, go to our site
< a href="http://www.lllil.com/heather/livewebcam">http://www.lllil.com/heather/livewebcam




---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 25 22:09:05 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:09:05 -0800
Subject: Big Bang Thought Experiment
In-Reply-To: <1631111A-F95F-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3C283BC0.26903.2B1614@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C28F901.3596.12D9329@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > One could of course have a pile of gold, and physically
> > and in person exchange coins for physical gold

On 25 Dec 2001, at 9:44, Tim May wrote:
> 1. Must money be tied to intrinsic stores of value? I think
> the answer is clearly "No." The U.S. dollar is not in any
> direct way tied to anything except _other dollars_.
> Obviously. True, there are already many things already
> valued in dollars--land, things, houses, loans, taxes,
> salaries--so there is a somewhat circular argument that
> echoes what Danny DeVito said in the recent movie "Heist":
> "Money is money, that's why they call it "money"!"
> (paraphrased)

I fully agree that a server sustaining play money is a good
start, but I see no prospect that e-cash could be introduced
without convertibility.

Cato recently had an article discussing the same matter as
Danny DeVito, at somewhat greater length.

The point that they made was that even if everyone was better
off for adopting some arbitrary form of fiat money as money,
it would not be adopted, because of the critical mass
problem.  With all existing examples of fiat money, this
critical mass problem was overcome by first issuing it as
convertible, non fiat money, then later suspending
convertibility.

Suspension of convertibility was accompanied by some other
form of free lance confiscation, in the form of legal tender
laws that guaranteed that debts contracted for silver could
be paid by paper, even though the value of the paper had
fallen well below the value of the silver, with the result
that creditors suffered dramatic losses, and debtors dramatic
gains.

While issue of a purely fiat digital currency without state
backing would be an interesting experiment, such a currency
could never gain value, never become useful as a medium of
exchange.

> Comment: I'm not trying to trivialize the issues. There are
> issues with dealing with double-spending ("first to redeem"
> is a good fix), transfer deadlock (when Alice and Bob
> exchange something for some token...what if one walks away?
> A deadlock issue with real money, as with exchanging
> suitcases of cocaine for suitcases of dollars), and other
> issues.

With an in person transaction, this is not a problem.  If
either party defaults, violence will ensue, and the cost of
the violence will greatly exceed the value to be stolen.

E-gold now supports this capability.  Since one can now do
e-gold transfer's through one's sprint cell phone, one can
now exchange e-gold for suitcases of cocaine, though because
e-gold is somewhat traceable, one would be unwise to do this.

However the niche market where most people expect the
introduction of digital cash is internet transactions, where
breaking the defaulter's neck is not a viable option.

e-cash will be most useful for sales of information,
especially pornography in its more controversial forms, and
sales of rights over assets that do not involve any
accompanying physical movement of assets.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     7becawq45A8LcVWWvnNM2lGVWddDFI27K+uRGxOr
     4VUXQD+RQrS5MrS5aIXPY7VPkoRmgA1vEu1KpX64u




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Tue Dec 25 14:14:51 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 25 Dec 2001 22:14:51 -0000
Subject: Time to unsubscribe...
In-Reply-To: <52cc879c34a7f1bdd3339cbef8ca23f2@dizum.com> (message from
  Nomen Nescio on Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:10:32 +0100 (CET))
References: <52cc879c34a7f1bdd3339cbef8ca23f2@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20011225221451.28575.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> >Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling
> >from mattd at useoz.com and ravage at ...  The few bits of wonderfully
> >interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to
> >motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters.  If someone knows
> >of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.
> 
> Since you seem to be ignorant msoft user, use made-for-idiots yahoo
> throwaway and set this in the "block addresses" (under options):

Just for the record, I'm not an ignorant MS user.  I'm an ignorant
user of something else, far more subtle.

[list snipped]

Choate and Mattd seem to be responsible for more than half the
traffic, and basically none of the value on this list.  I think it
would be almost tolerable without them on it.  Ok, time to figure out
the mysteries of filtering.




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 25 20:17:30 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:17:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable ,  coward.RIP., 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226125108.00a8ceb0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> If your neighbors are irritated by what your doing,you might examine what 
> your doing.

Really? Why? Am I on their property? Using their property? Breaking some
sort of public trust?

The reality is that people get 'irritated' by the silliest things, two
guys (or girls) kissing in public for example. Wanting to burn a flag or a
bible. Going to a different church than they do...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Dec 25 14:10:32 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:10:32 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Time to unsubscribe...
Message-ID: <52cc879c34a7f1bdd3339cbef8ca23f2@dizum.com>


>Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling
>from mattd at useoz.com and ravage at ...  The few bits of wonderfully
>interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to
>motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters.  If someone knows
>of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.

Since you seem to be ignorant msoft user, use made-for-idiots yahoo
throwaway and set this in the "block addresses" (under options):



declan at well.com
jchoate at dev.tivoli.com
jchoate at tivoli.com
jchoate at us.tivoli.com"
jim_choate/tivoli_systems at us.ibm.com
mattd at useoz.com
ravage at einstein.ssz.com
ravage at ssz.com
sandfort at mindspring.com
tcmay at got.net




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Dec 25 20:39:53 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:39:53 -0500
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable ,  coward.RIP.,
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226125108.00a8ceb0@pop.useoz.com> 
Message-ID: <20011225233953.A2519@ils.unc.edu>


On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 10:17:30PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> The reality is that people get 'irritated' by the silliest things, two
> guys (or girls) kissing in public for example. Wanting to burn a flag or a
> bible. Going to a different church than they do...

Carrying explosives in your penis :-)




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 04:42:29 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:42:29 +1100
Subject: Remailer Stats (was: Swiss Bank and timay in a Box) 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225210953.00a8c4e0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>I think there are a few possible routes to doing this: 0) Cypherpunk 
applications continuing to be few and far between, not up to "commercial" 
standards, and not widely deployed. The default. <<

Publicity,ryan,the daughter of invention.Start raising money on ****** then 
*******,*******,*******.The usual suspects.
I can see the headlines.KILLER APP! HAVEN of DEATH! ASSASSINATION POOLS! 
Your arrest will make the headlines.Casanova ran the 1st lottery and died a 
wealthy man.The tempo of declan's knittings just picked up speed.
The 4 horsemen will be wheeled out on you soon,anyway,you and I know 
that.You have to make a virtue out of what's seems to be ,(but isn't) a 
liability.APster for the masses.Tell them your only doing it because an 
aussi mass murderer and cyberstalker threatened to tear your heart out and 
eat it.Hell,tell the masses of the media,their bosses are next.

Remailers=APster=ecash=laundering=crypto/pedo 
rings=terrorplots=spamhaus's=mass/taxevasion=cryptoanarchy

Its a hard sell but its starting,Its going to be global,your going to be 
the most famous man that ever lived.The APster craze will 
amaze.Assassination politics is already here,the global panopticon is 
already here.Think fusion on Jupiter.Collapse of govts."Eternal vigilance 
is the price of liberty" used to mean us watching # the government, not the 
other way around...."Michael Rimmer did not hesitate to save the PM.Dennis 
More died so that lupins could run free.What would austin Powers do in your 
shoes? Stig of the dump? Christopher Robin commands it Ryan,for the rebel 
alliance and the tower of the beautiful maidens,do it.Let he who shall be 
the rightful king,draw this sword from the stone.Stand on me.




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 25 21:44:26 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:44:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable ,  coward.RIP., 
In-Reply-To: <20011225233953.A2519@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Greg Newby wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 10:17:30PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > The reality is that people get 'irritated' by the silliest things, two
> > guys (or girls) kissing in public for example. Wanting to burn a flag or a
> > bible. Going to a different church than they do...
> 
> Carrying explosives in your penis :-)

Even having a penis ;)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 04:47:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:47:59 +1100
Subject: The Zeitgeist bookshop
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011225234508.00a496e0@pop.useoz.com>


Any laskar jihad terrorist out in the aussi bush can light more than a
little C4.Can also smuggle fruit fly interstate.
The horror...the horror.
AUSTRALIAN ANARCHIST HISTORY
DAVID ANDRADE 1859 - 1928
In May 1886, David Andrade, his brother Will Andrade and a few others formed
Australia9s first Anarchist group - The Melbourne Anarchist Club. David
Andrade was a regular contributor to the club9s journal Honesty. David and
his brother Will were booksellers, they had a newsagency in Brunswick. In
1890, they moved to Liberty Hall in Russell St, Melbourne and set up
Australia9s first anarchist bookshop and vegetarian restaurant.
Andrade was a writer, publisher, distributor, organiser, activist and
propagandist. Publications he wrote include Money - A Study of the Currency
Question 1887, An Anarchist Plan of Campaign 1888 and in 1892 he published
the novel, the Melbourne Riots and how Harry Holdfast and his friends
emancipated "the workers". David Andrade was a major participant in the
Melbourne Anarchist Club split in 1888, which revolved around the question
of "forcible reclamation and defence of liberty" - violence. David Andrade,
a pacifist, rejected the idea of the use of violence.
David Andrade, a man with incredible amounts of energy, became secretary of
the Unemployed Workers Association in Richmond in the early 18909s and in
1893 took up a selection of 10 acres in the Dandenong Ranges at Kallista,
where he cleared the land, built a house and worked as a storekeeper and
mailman. His second son, who was named Proudhon, was born on the selection
in 1893. Andrade and his family were burnt out in the fires of 1898. The
fires destroyed everything he had built up over his lifetime.
Seventeen years after he began his Anarchist Odyssey, the pressures became
too much to bear and David Andrade was admitted to the Yarra Bend asylum in
1903 and spent the next 25 years in various asylums, dying in the Ballarat
Mental Asylum in 1928. His two sons died in 1909 and 1913. Andrade, in
P.D. Gardner9s words, "was caught up with the various means by which the
idea could be turned into practice".
I9m deeply indebted to Mountain Echoes No.21 by P.D. Gardner for the
information for this article.
FIVE YEARS OF MOUNTAIN ECHOES (1-60) IS NOW AVAILABLE FROM NGARAK PRESS.
Write to Ngarak Press, PO Box 18 Ensay 3895 Australia or email Ngarak Press
at ngarak at bigpond.com for your copy of Five Years of Mountain Echoes.
BOOK REVIEW
ANARCHISM ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST, Albert MELTZER, AK Press 7th Edition
2000. ISBN 1873176570
Albert Meltzer, a class struggle anarchist for over 60 years, first
published Anarchism Arguments for and Against in 1981. The booklet was
reissued five times between the time it was first published in 1981 and his
death in 1996. The 7th Edition is pocket size, 96 page, blockbuster, that
like the original, oscillates between brilliance and the mundane.
After an introduction by Sturat Christie on the life and times of Albert
Meltzer, Albert opens his account by giving a potted description of the
modern Anarchist Movement. In this introductory section, Meltzer leaves out
more than he puts in. The rest of the book is split into two distinct
sections, arguments for and against Anarchism. In the first section, he
examines the Inalienable Tenets of Anarchism, the class struggle,
organisation and Anarchism, the role of an Anarchist in an Authoritarian
Society and Bringing about the New Society.
His arguments about what anarchism is, are easy to understand, but patchy in
parts. His tendency to wander off in the midst of an argument to berate who
he considers are his anarchist enemies, diminishes his arguments about
anarchism. The strength of the book lies in the second part. In this part,
Objections to Anarchism, he clearly refutes the arguments of all those
political and social movements that have tried to confine anarchism to the
historical cyber bin. Sixty years of militant activity have clearly
sharpened Meltzer9s intellect to a point where he is able to shrivel the
arguments of all those elements in society that oppose Anarchism in a few
sharp sentences. Objections to Anarchism begins with Meltzer9s ideas on
Leadership and ends with the Reduction of Anarchism to Marginalisation. In
between, he lucidly and simply, overturns the objections of Marxists,
Capitalists, Fascists, Social-Democrats, Trade Union officials, sections of
the Feminist movement and tackles the mythical Average Persons Objection to
Anarchism.
Anarchism - Arguments for and Against is available for $10.70 (Australian)
from Anarres Books. Write to them at PO Box 150 East Brunswick 3057
Melbourne Australia or if you are cyber savvy email your order to
mailorder at anarres.org.au. Want Anarres latest catalogue? Write to them or
have a look at their web site www.anarres.org.au.




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Dec 25 21:55:15 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:55:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Big Bang Thought Experiment
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 25, 2001, at 01:50 PM, Adam Shostack wrote:
> 
> > Many posts have talked about a both a 'fixed level' of money, and a
> > commission.  I find this odd, especially as there will be no way to
> > add funds to the system.  If you have a commission on every exchange,
> > the money essentially deflates (there will be less of it tomorow than
> > there is today, making it more scarce, and thus more valuable.)  Thus 
> > it makes sense to hold onto it, making it illiquid, which is a bad thing 
> > for a currency.  Since this is magic money, why not issue more of it now 
> > and again?
> 
> For all intents and purposes, the total supply of gold has been 
> relatively constant for decades. A fraction of the total is mined and 
> brought to market each year, but only a small fraction of the total.
> 
> And yet the assay and marking cost (several percent) has not crippled 
> gold.

But gold is, at least for this sort of discussion, illiquid. How many gold
coins do you have in your pocket right now? I'll wager asymptotic to nill.

> Further, the fee for assaying and marking (melting, minting, stamping 
> gold bars, etc.) is a fee for a service, and goes back into circulation. 

Actually the payment for the fee for the assayist and the mint aren't
likely to come out of the metal they are processing today. Now if we were
talking of a 'frontier' sort of situation then you wouldn't have those
fees going back into circulation, at least not immediately. In that case
the 'cut' would be collected over some suitable period of time and then
sold. Or the assayist could simply take their cut on the upstream broker
payment (this assumes of course they have sufficient liquid capital in
hand). 

> I expect the operators of a money changing operation would similarly 
> aggregate their 1% or whatever and use the aggregated fee as their 
> compensation for providing a service.

But these examples, at least from the perspective of the money changer are
dealing with effectively 'unlimited' cash pools to draw from.

Your objections to Adams points don't hold.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Tue Dec 25 15:14:02 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 00:14:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Illusional delusions
Message-ID: <74e9b9a41325592394347e485f0d11fb@remailer.privacy.at>


>> cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is
>> not a solution.
>
>Therefore murder, if not witnessed, never happened.  If a body falls in the
>forest...?

You have a problem with simple sentences. Also, when you want to switch
the arguments you must do it in more intelligent and coherent way.

Payments should happen. The solution is to make them invisible.

But let me do it in simpler terms:

I owe Mr. Melon 100 credits, which is well-established and provable (to
me and him) in our private currency. Mr. Melon owns Mr. Nomen 50
credits. It is very easy to transfer my debt and then I can perform some
task for Mr. Nomen worth 50 credits. This happens often in real life.
It's called barter and it is taxable, if it can be proved. Never
converting anything to paper/book dollars makes it extremely hard to
prove. People do favours to each other essentially on the same bases,
sans bookkeeping or crypto. Once I did some programming for the guy and
instead of paying me he gave his $2000 WW1 rifle to the mutual friend
who wanted it and he took it towards commission on a real-estate
transaction he did for me. This is a rare. Software could make it more
convenient. Just peg a credit to a dollar for the start.

>The fact that party X commits a crime without being witnessed does not
>eliminate the crime.  It merely makes prosecution a bit harder.

That is the whole point of crypto. Once I declare your breathing to be a
crime (and I have a bigger gun than you do) you better conceal it.


>to.  Remember that multiple-issuer currencies have been tried before in just

I am talking about single-issuer currency.

>> whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business
>> for reputation building. Again, hardly new.
>
>Not new?  Name 5 prominent reputation brokers.  Reputation services?
>Reputation clearing agents?  What manner of reputation do they measure?

High-interest credit cards or store credit-cards (same as high-interest
since they limit you to a single source) that young people or people
with no credit can get, for instance ?

Mortgage insurance for those with low down-payment ?

Maybe Mr. Anonymous who frequents South Africa will mediate transactions
between canadians and south africans, since he knows both sides, for a
fee ?

High-priced shysters introducing their clients to each other ?

>> some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the
>> state's sight.
>
>You want work too hard to stay out of the state's sight.

Of course. I never buy controlled substances from dealers, for instance.
Always from end-users I knew for years.

>(Incidentally, it's "Illusory Delusions."  "Ilusional" isn't a word. It's

You are just plain stupid, aren't you ? It takes some intelligence to do
ad hominems, you know. I sometimes make this mistake, taking plain idiocy
for misinformed insight worth arguing.

Go to a bookstore, there is a shelve labeled "Reference", take a book
called "Dictionary" and look up Illusion (two "l"s, not one):

Main Entry: il7lu7sion 
Pronunciation: i-'l|-zh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin
illusion-, illusio, from
Latin, action of mocking, from illudere to mock at, from in- + ludere to
play, mock --
more at LUDICROUS
Date: 14th century

1 a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of
being intellectually
deceived or misled : MISAPPREHENSION (2) : an instance of such deception

2 a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : something
that deceives or
misleads intellectually b (1) : perception of something objectively
existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual
nature (2) : HALLUCINATION 1 (3) : a pattern capable of reversible
perspective

3 : a fine plain transparent bobbinet or tulle usually made of silk and used for veils,
trimmings, and dresses

- il7lu7sion7al  /-'l|zh-n&l, -'l|-zh&-n&l/ adjective




From owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM  Tue Dec 25 08:44:36 2001
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM (owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 00:44:36 +0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200112251647.fBPGlHev029641@ak47.algebra.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3368 bytes
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URL: 

From cripto at ecn.org  Tue Dec 25 16:49:48 2001
From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 01:49:48 +0100
Subject: Explosive dicks (was: C4 commercial web page)
Message-ID: 


>Density: 1.63 g/cm3

My dick, unerect, is about 12 cm long and has 3.5 cm radius.

This makes for 37 cm3, or about 60 grams (2 oz) of C4.

60 grams can pierce the aircraft hull no problemo.

So, the question is, how do you tell between plastic C4 dick and genuine
meat without close tactile observation at the security checkpoint ?

Beware of arabs/israelis humping aircraft walls.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 07:35:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 02:35:01 +1100
Subject: Time to unsubscribe... 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226022934.00a8abb0@pop.useoz.com>


Maybe I should start a new list called realitypunks,
 > which will have these rules:
 >
 > 1. No ad hominem attacks.
 >
 > 2. No anti-governemnt ranting.
 >
 > 3. A few select incoherent ranters would need to be kicked out for
 > causing excessive harm to the signal-to-noise ratio.
 >
 > 4. Let's focus on PR, marketing and psychology instead of technology,
 > legal debate, and confrontation.
 >
 > If a bunch of people are interested I'll create it. If not, that's ok
 > too.
Enjoy yourself.
 >>>On Tue, Dec 25, at 05:56AM, Dr. Evil wrote: | Basically half the posts 
to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling | from mattd at and ravage at ... 
The few bits of wonderfully | interesting news on this list aren't quite 
wonderful enough to | motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters. If 
someone knows | of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.
  procmail is your friend.
proctology is your future.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 08:18:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 03:18:27 +1100
Subject: Argentina has decisively entered the road of revolution. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226030754.00a867f0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Great propaganda piece. Take a revolt against government manipulation of 
the economy and portray it as the death of capitalism... Kinda gives 
himself away by describing the fall of Saigon as "foreign invaders fleeing 
from an army of national liberation." Marc de Piolenc mattd wrote: > > 
Argentina - The Revolution has Begun > > By Alan Woods

Thanks Marc,Its from Indymedia.org,main board.It had some marxist dreck 
that I edited out.I fear for the anarchists if the leninists simply inherit 
the torture tables.Its vital more people know how dangerous these 
authoritarian socialists are.
C/punks calling for crypto-anarchy are liable to be burned alive as 
commies.OR if the fucking MLers actually win,we could be toasted as 
crypto-fascists.Monkee's on a rock.There could be e-cash/barter opps 
though,doncha reckon?




From steve at sendon.net  Tue Dec 25 23:01:12 2001
From: steve at sendon.net (Steve Thompson)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 07:01:12 +0000
Subject: Document Authenticity (was: Explosive dicks (was: C4 commercial web page)
References: 
Message-ID: <200112260921.JAA08226@divert.sendon.net>



Quoting Anonymous (cripto at ecn.org):
> So, the question is, how do you tell between plastic C4 dick and genuine
> meat without close tactile observation at the security checkpoint ?
> 
> Beware of arabs/israelis humping aircraft walls.

This will be a simple threat to mitigate. 

The government simply needs to require that every male carry a Foreskin
Certificate of Authenticity.  Obviously for women, a similar certificate will
be necessary to authenticate breasts and pregnancies.  Particularly paranoid
regimes might also view moles and bunyans with suspicion and mandate further
security measures.  For the public safety, of course.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Witness
those little white men
practising their alibis.
        -- Dean Russell




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Dec 26 07:19:49 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 07:19:49 -0800
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226115137.00a50670@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C297A15.898.1507E61@localhost>


    --
mattd:
> > > Ahwell! Still if you want to lump stalinists,trots and
> > > anarchs together

James A. Donald:
> > The difference between Stalinists and Trots is that the
> > Trots were from the beginning more extreme, more brutal,
> > and more contemptuous of ordinary Russians. The original
> > point of dispute between Stalin and Trotsky was that
> > Trotsky though Stalin was too soft on the kulaks.

mattd:
> Spain,jamesd,I thought we were talking about SPAIN! I know
> a bit about Trotsky's russian background,the betrayal of
> Makhno and Krondstadt,Its a huge separate issue

The Trots I encountered in Australia seemed remarkably
similar to the Trotsky that I found in the history books.
Perhaps that is why they called themselves Trotskyists.

The story of the Russian radical left is full of hypocrisy,
betrayal and murder. The story of the Catalonian radical left
is also full of very similar hypocrisy, betrayal and murder,
with the added twist that in Catalonia the anarchist
nomenclatura was sold by the anarchist leadership into the
hands of their enemies.

> There are major differences with real live anarchists and
> "commies".Trust me on this.I've attacked N.Klein and
> N.Chompsky myself for playing footsie with the
> ISO,degenerate MLers.Lump everyone together and you only
> fool yourself.

The differences that seem so big and important from the
inside, are small from the outside.  I notice that you
approvingly cite Huben's FAQ, whose central argument is that
the federal government is the rightful owner of everything in
the USA.

James A. Donald:
> > but after the incompatibility between anarchism and
> > socialism was demonstrated in 1936-1938

mattd:
> By jamesd,sole expert on spanish
> anarcho-commie-fascism.Yeah right.

The abrupt change in the "anarchist" program after 1938
demonstrates that they saw, you see, what I saw. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     jB0PmUIaq0egQaomYost8N/WXQwLQ7vWjChNRtVg
     4IoJwQD5LoOqKXoEqA6+fgJbLj8n2m7OmwdvTBx82




From greg9120 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 26 19:24:31 2001
From: greg9120 at yahoo.com (greg9120 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 07:24:31 -2000
Subject: DVD COPIER SOFTWARE             31353
Message-ID: <00007ae91fda$0000737b$0000308c@mx2.mail.yahoo.com>

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From buddy8575 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 26 21:37:46 2001
From: buddy8575 at yahoo.com (buddy8575 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:37:46 -2000
Subject: For DVD Lovers                  11227
Message-ID: <00004957592d$00000e89$0000172f@mx2.mail.yahoo.com>

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From baptista at pccf.net  Wed Dec 26 08:25:05 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (baptista at pccf.net)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:25:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Explosive dicks and assholes (was: C4 commercial web page)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> >Density: 1.63 g/cm3
> 
> My dick, unerect, is about 12 cm long and has 3.5 cm radius.

Thats a small dick.  I assume it has growth potential.

But my recommendations are not to use your dick for the explosives.  Use
your asshole.  You can stuff a whole wad of explosive materials up
there.  And there is a precedent for that sort of thing.  Prisoners have
been using their assholes for centuries to move contraban.

I can see it now.  Airports everywhere employing teams of proctologists
while passengers bend over for the safty checks.

regards
joe

> 
> This makes for 37 cm3, or about 60 grams (2 oz) of C4.
> 
> 60 grams can pierce the aircraft hull no problemo.
> 
> So, the question is, how do you tell between plastic C4 dick and genuine
> meat without close tactile observation at the security checkpoint ?
> 
> Beware of arabs/israelis humping aircraft walls.
> 

-- 
The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

http://www.dot-god.com/




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 17:18:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:18:47 +1100
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226115137.00a50670@pop.useoz.com>


 >>mattd:
 > Ahwell! Still if you want to lump stalinists,trots and
 > anarchs together
The difference between Stalinists and Trots is that the Trots
were from the beginning more extreme, more brutal, and more
contemptuous of ordinary Russians. The original point of
dispute between Stalin and Trotsky was that Trotsky though
Stalin was too soft on the kulaks. The moderate faction in
Russia were the Zinovievists. No one outside Russia thought
himself a Zinovievist, all identifying with the more extreme,
not less extreme, factions of Soviet communism.<<

Spain,jamesd,I thought we were talking about SPAIN! I know a bit about 
Trotsky's russian background,the betrayal of Makhno and Krondstadt,Its a 
huge separate issue.Id like to keep this thread a little focused.You are 
usually very crisp,cool and concise in your posts.Your making extreme 
statements here.

 >>There once upon a time was difference between those you
falsely call anarchists, and the commies<<

Todays anarchs are easy to find at Ainfos and Infoshop and 100's of minor 
pages.It might pay anyone calling themselves anarcho-whatever to check them 
out and compare and contrast information.I trust the natural selection of 
good ideas.
There are major differences with real live anarchists and "commies".Trust 
me on this.I've attacked N.Klein and N.Chompsky myself for playing footsie 
with the ISO,degenerate MLers.Lump everyone together and you only fool 
yourself.

 >>but after the
incompatibility between anarchism and socialism was
demonstrated in 1936-1938<<

By jamesd,sole expert on spanish anarcho-commie-fascism.Yeah right.

 >>the difference vanished. Chomsky
illustrates this well. Wherever the masters boot smashes
repeatedly into the face of a child, we can always rely on
Chomsky to find a good word for the master, and demonize the
child as a CIA agent. Chomsky defended the Pol Pot regime in
Cambodia, the slave labor camps employed to pacify South
Vietnam, rationalized the Soviet reinvasion of Czechoslovakia
and Hungary as defence against US aggression, and supported
Stalin's attacks on Greece. <<

The truth vanishes when jamesd gets all in a lather.Im not widely read on 
Chompsky.I recommend his essay "objectivity and liberal scholarship"on 
Spain and jamesd and whatever else you can find especially Abel 
Paz,"Durrutti,The People Armed".IF Chompsky did all those other things you 
accuse him of then he is contemptible but it would not detract at the 
slightest from his work on Spain.SPAIN,jamesd.SPAIN.SPAIN.SPAIN.Spainful 
for you?




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 17:48:33 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:48:33 +1100
Subject: Big Bang Thought Experiment, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226123650.00a8beb0@pop.useoz.com>


The Big Bang was a fizzle.Like the 1st ashes series of cricket and the 
first flight by harry Houdini,it happened near Sunbury
,victoria,au.People began a system of barter.Bob would do a few hours work 
for alice and earn Barter Units of Money at the rate pegged to the 
dollar.This system grew organically and exponentially to the point where 
the treasurer,Peter fuckface costello stepped in and ruled that these BUMs 
(I forget what they where called) would be taxed at the rate of 1 to the 
dollar.
Thus nipping the experiment,that directly threatened the state, in the 
bud.Since then we have APster so I believe we should try again.Ryan sounds 
like he might be the "forth man"to do this.I wish him well.Use the 
force,ryan,the APster force.

"No complex system was ever written from scratch. It always
started out as a simple system that was patched
incrementally. "chairman jamesd.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 18:06:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:06:49 +1100
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable ,
  coward.RIP., 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226125108.00a8ceb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>>>| Anarchism is a variant of socialism > > an7ar7chism (nr-kzm) > 
n. > > The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive > 
and > undesirable and should be abolished. > > Which is self-referential 
(it basically says that even anarchism will > oppress). << > >
Indeed.Especially where delegates are not rotated and revocable.See 
jamesd > for the dangers anarchism in practise.

You don't need James D., all you've got to do is look to your neighbors. In 
an anarchism what is illegal is whatever you do that irritates your 
neighbors. Which is about as coersive as it gets, need an example of why 
CACL doesnt' work, look at the discussion around the 'CDR:' in message titles.

If your neighbors are irritated by what your doing,you might examine what 
your doing.APster describes a way of handling car thieves if you read the 
essay,assassination politics.Anarchism is the best way to minimize 
coercion.For the difference between anarchism and CACL 
see...http://world.std.com/~mhuben/leftlib.html Im hoping some recent 
threads here might be added to this exellent site soon,real soon.CACL 
proponents don't even believe their own arguments or they would all go off 
and try it on an Island somewhere and stop trying to leech off the good 
name of anarchy.>>look at the discussion around the 'CDR:' in message 
titles. <


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From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 19:17:39 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:17:39 +1100
Subject: I am the Walrus.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226140501.00a8c730@pop.useoz.com>


The Cybercrime Act gives police the power to search computer networks 
across different locations and force individuals to reveal encryption keys
Mr Taylor said computer users could also face prosecution for failing to 
hand over encryption keys, even if they forgot their password.(greg Taylor EFA)
Alternatives to Passport
The Liberty group argues such specifications should be based on open 
standards and not controlled by a single company. Microsoft also says it 
supports an open model for authentication based on internet standards.
"We agree and have said for some time that no one company should be in 
control of such a system," Microsoft spokesman Erik Denny said.
Previously announced founders and members of the Liberty Alliance 
management board include Bell Canada, Global Crossing, Nokia, NTT DoCoMo, 
Openwave Systems, RealNetworks, RSA Security, Sony, United Airlines and 
Vodafone.

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,3432981%5E15322%5E%5Enbv%5E15306,00.html

Internet bank in the black
Correspondents in London
DECEMBER 14, 2001
BRITAIN'S pioneering internet bank, Egg, said today it had hatched a profit 
last month for the first time since its launch two years ago.
Egg, which was part-floated by its parent, insurance group Prudential, in 
June last year, said it had pulled in 1.9 million customers and had hit its 
profitability target.
"At our IPO in June 2000, we committed to break even at some point during 
the fourth quarter of this year. Today, we are pleased to announce that our 
management accounts for November show that Egg has made a profit for the 
month," it said.
Egg stock rose 0.6 per cent to 155 pence ($4.30)in a lower overall market 
on the news.
Agence France-Presse
  Net defamation reaches top court
Matthew Spencer
DECEMBER 15, 2001 THE High Court will be the first top court in the world 
to rule on the boundaries of defamation in cyberspace, having agreed to 
hear an appeal from Dow Jones after the US publisher implied mining magnate 
Joseph Gutnick was a money launderer.
Gutnick says case should be heard in OZ cos info could be printed out 
there(!) The guy has others do his laundering while he buys up land for 
armed zionist fundamentalist fanatics in occupied palestine.
New life for Grand Theft Auto 3
Caitlin Fitzsimmons
DECEMBER 14, 2001
THE banned PlayStation 2 game, Grand Theft Auto 3, is likely to be recoded 
and could return to Australian stores by February.
The game, which is one of the most popular PS2 games worldwide, was refused 
classification by the Office of Film and Literature Classification (OFLC) 
because of implied scenes of sexual violence.
The game had been launched a month earlier with an MA15+ advisory sticker 
because of an apparent misunderstanding between the distributors, Take 2 
Interactive, and the OFLC.
But after the OFLC ban and a failed appeal, it is now illegal to sell or 
demonstrate the game anywhere in Australia.
Take 2 Interactive managing director James Ellingford said he was in 
discussions with the developer to modify the game to pass Australia's 
censorship guidelines.
The expense of the product recall, recoding the game and reprinting the 
discs would be "significant".
Mr Ellingford said he was waiting for the final report from the OFLC and a 
face-to-face meeting to discuss the specific problems before he would "push 
the button" for recoding to start.
He expected to give the go-ahead on December 20 and the best-case scenario 
would see the game back on shelves by January 25.
Take 2 Interactive planned to launch a version of the game in PC format by 
March, but there were no plans at this stage to develop it for Microsoft's 
Xbox.
Grand Theft Auto 3 is one of a new breed of highly realistic games that 
give complete freedom to the player within the game world.
The player is cast as a gangster who car-jacks vehicles and performs 
contract work for various crime bosses.
The game contains a scene in which the player can hire a prostitute - 
although the graphics are limited to a shaking car parked under a tree - 
but this is not required to complete the game.
The OFLC objected to the fact that the player can bash and kill the 
prostitute for money after having sex with her.
Cant wait for Grand Theft Crypto.




From nobody at coollist.com  Wed Dec 26 07:04:15 2001
From: nobody at coollist.com (Coollist Subscription)
Date: 26 Dec 2001 15:04:15 -0000
Subject: joshuam Registration
Message-ID: <20011226150415.56570.qmail@mtx.coollist.com>


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From newt at ruralaccess.net  Wed Dec 26 15:22:17 2001
From: newt at ruralaccess.net (jim)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:22:17
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200112262136.PAA05093@einstein.ssz.com>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 21:06:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:06:11 +1100
Subject: MAY!Heard about Pittsburg PA?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226160258.00a4bd40@pop.useoz.com>


PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA, USA -
Friday, Dec. 21, 2001 -

'May Day 3' defendants receive light
sentences in plea bargains.

All three had felony charges reduced
to misdemeanors. Each got 30 hours of
community service within six months of
probation. One had been charged with
aggravated assault on an officer. Another
had been charged with carrying an
incendiary device. (It was actually fire
juggling equipment.) The judge, Novak,
actually ruled to keep the incendiary device
charge. In the courtroom, none of the
arresting officers were on hand, only the
prosecutor.

The unpermitted march on May 1 was
attacked by police, causing a melee just as
the march entered Market Square (where it
might have dispersed). They arrested ten,
one a juvenile. Several of those arrested were
beaten and pepper sprayed. The thuggery of
the Pittsburgh cops is clearly evident on
videotape. The nine arrested adults spent two
to three days in jail. Six of the nine, with
misdemeanors, were charged in May, receiving
fines and community service. One of these people
is to appeal his sentence in January, 2002.

The march had included anarchist black flags
in celebration of May Day - the international
labor holiday originating in Chicago in 1886.
It included a festive, spring celebration
atmosphere - some carried large paper flowers
on sticks. The march had been billed as a sort
of reclaim the streets action. Most of the 150
to 200 participants were young anarchists or
punks.

At subsequent hearings, people from the
anarchist WHAT Collective, the Mr.
Roboto Project (infoshop-space), Black
Radical Congress, the United Electricians,
Labor Party and the Thomas Merton (peace)
Center had come out to show support.

One observer complained that even though
light sentences were handed down, the
protesters still get criminalized for walking
down the street.

Most of those arrested were either anarchists
or IWW members.

-Duff (one of the 'Pittsburgh May Day 9/3'.)



			********
        ****** The A-Infos News Service ******
       News about and of interest to anarchists
                        ******
Tim when you were born,you cried and world around you laughed.When you die 
soon,you'll laugh and the world around you will cry.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 21:23:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:23:27 +1100
Subject: Anonymous Barter?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226162255.00a52eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >> cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable 
is >> not a solution. > >Therefore murder, if not witnessed, never 
happened. If a body falls in the >forest...? You have a problem with simple 
sentences. Also, when you want to switch the arguments you must do it in 
more intelligent and coherent way. Payments should happen. The solution is 
to make them invisible. But let me do it in simpler terms: I owe Mr. Melon 
100 credits, which is well-established and provable (to me and him) in our 
private currency. Mr. Melon owns Mr. Nomen 50 credits. It is very easy to 
transfer my debt and then I can perform some task for Mr. Nomen worth 50 
credits. This happens often in real life. It's called barter and it is 
taxable, if it can be proved. Never converting anything to paper/book 
dollars makes it extremely hard to prove. People do favours to each other 
essentially on the same bases, sans bookkeeping or crypto. Once I did some 
programming for the guy and instead of paying me he gave his $2000 WW1 
rifle to the mutual friend who wanted it and he took it towards commission 
on a real-estate transaction he did for me. This is a rare. Software could 
make it more convenient. Just peg a credit to a dollar for the start. >The 
fact that party X commits a crime without being witnessed does 
not >eliminate the crime. It merely makes prosecution a bit harder. That is 
the whole point of crypto. Once I declare your breathing to be a crime (and 
I have a bigger gun than you do) you better conceal it. >to. Remember that 
multiple-issuer currencies have been tried before in just I am talking 
about single-issuer currency. >> whose reputation you can't instrument. But 
someone can start a business >> for reputation building. Again, hardly 
new. > >Not new? Name 5 prominent reputation brokers. Reputation 
services? >Reputation clearing agents? What manner of reputation do they 
measure? High-interest credit cards or store credit-cards (same as 
high-interest since they limit you to a single source) that young people or 
people with no credit can get, for instance ? Mortgage insurance for those 
with low down-payment ? Maybe Mr. Anonymous who frequents South Africa will 
mediate transactions between canadians and south africans, since he knows 
both sides, for a fee ? High-priced shysters introducing their clients to 
each other ? >> some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting 
out of the >> state's sight. > >You want work too hard to stay out of the 
state's sight. Of course. I never buy controlled substances from dealers, 
for instance. Always from end-users I knew for years. >(Incidentally, it's 
"Illusory Delusions." "Ilusional" isn't a word. It's You are just plain 
stupid, aren't you ? It takes some intelligence to do ad hominems, you 
know. I sometimes make this mistake, taking plain idiocy for misinformed 
insight worth arguing. Go to a bookstore, there is a shelve labeled 
"Reference", take a book called "Dictionary" and look up Illusion (two 
"l"s, not one): Main Entry: il7lu7sion Pronunciation: i-'l|-zh&n Function: 
noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin 
illusion-, illusio, from Latin, action of mocking, from illudere to mock 
at, from in- + ludere to play, mock -- more at LUDICROUS Date: 14th century 
1 a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of being 
intellectually deceived or misled : MISAPPREHENSION (2) : an instance of 
such deception 2 a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : 
something that deceives or misleads intellectually b (1) : perception of 
something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation 
of its actual nature (2) : HALLUCINATION 1 (3) : a pattern capable of 
reversible perspective 3 : a fine plain transparent bobbinet or tulle 
usually made of silk and used for veils, trimmings, and dresses - 
il7lu7sion7al /-'l|zh-n&l, -'l|-zh&-n&l/ adjective 




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Dec 26 17:44:51 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:44:51 -0800
Subject: Explosive smuggling (@#%$@# deleted)
In-Reply-To: <20011226234955.12584.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>
  
  <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011226174451.007efb80@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:49 PM 12/26/01 -0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>effective against drug smuggling.  The risk is very real; a woman
>could carry several pounds of explosives.  "They" are aware of this
>but there isn't much they can do right now.

No one has yet mentioned surgically implanted explosives.  
You could carry more than a twat's worth.
You'd need a mechanical or chemical trigger to avoid
electronics-detection.  Think: punch yourself 6 cm left
of the scar, to push the plunger.  

A martyr is truly a great delivery mechanism.  

....
Was 'Reid' wearing Nikes? 

....
What does airport 'security' do about those sneakers that
flash upon heelstrike?




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 25 22:48:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:48:11 +1100
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable ,
  coward.RIP.,, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226173118.00a52080@pop.useoz.com>


 >>On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, mattd wrote: > If your neighbors are irritated by 
what your doing,you might examine what > your doing.
  Really? Why? Am I on their property? Using their property? Breaking some 
sort of public trust? The reality is that people get 'irritated' by the 
silliest things, two guys (or girls) kissing in public for example. Wanting 
to burn a flag or a bible. Going to a different church than they do..<<.

Pulling your dick,yeah,yeah.The question of "property"is one every opponent 
of CACL should know backwards.
As your a seppo try ... 
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secG5.html "property is theft!"
Not causing to much offense means you live longer and so you can irritate 
your neighbors longer.You have an inalienable right to irritate people:Smug 
little shits like declan and pompous,pretentious neo-nazis like 
tim  irritate me.I might have them APstered if I can raise enough BUM based 
e-cash.Care to chip in a proffr dollar?.)




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Dec 26 18:27:30 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:27:30 -0800
Subject: Explosive smuggling (@#%$@# deleted)
In-Reply-To: <20011227015333.7755.qmail@sidereal.kz>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011226174451.007efb80@pop.sprynet.com>
  <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>
  
  <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>
  <3.0.6.32.20011226174451.007efb80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011226181321.033253e0@idiom.com>


At 01:53 AM 12/27/2001 +0000, Dr. Evil wrote:
>The solution to this problem might be greater use of high-speed
>trains, video conferencing, and other things to make air travel less
>necessary.

High-speed trains are almost as much fun to blow up as planes,
and muckers can do that by blowing up the tracks without
even having to get on the train.

Back when I was living in New Jersey and commuting to DC,
I usually took the train instead of the plane -
it took about 15 minutes longer, but was much nicer
(I lived closer to the train station, and most places I went in DC
were closer to the train than the airport, which made up for the
Metroliner being a bit slower.)  Now that they're adding an
hour or two to the plane trip, even the slow trains would be a slam dunk,
and they've now added an even faster train (though I'm not sure
if it stops in Central Jersey or just Newark.)

Here in California, if I'm going to Burbank it's still an hour or so
faster to fly than drive, but getting more ridiculous,
though for Orange County or LAX it's still a lot faster to drive.
But at least you can drive down the Grapevine without them
demanding that you take off your shoes, jacket, hat, pager,
cellphone, wallet, computer, wristwatch, screwdrivers, pocket knife,
nail files, scissors, car keys, and golf clubs
and unwrap all your Christmas presents.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec 26 19:14:11 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 19:14:11 -0800
Subject: Explosive smuggling (@#%$@# deleted)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011226174451.007efb80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wednesday, December 26, 2001, at 05:44 PM, David Honig wrote:
> ....
> Was 'Reid' wearing Nikes?
>

As Osama told him, "Just do it!"


> What does airport 'security' do about those sneakers that
> flash upon heelstrike?
>

An ideal detonation device.

"Walk softly and carry a big stick."

"Click your heels three times and you'll be home."

"Toto, I don't think we're over Kansas anymore."


Me, I haven't been on a plane in over two years. And given the dangers 
and the police state measures, I don't expect to be traveling by air any 
time in the next few years. A good thing most places I want to travel to 
I can get to by car.


--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec 26 19:17:29 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 19:17:29 -0800
Subject: Explosive smuggling (@#%$@# deleted)
In-Reply-To: <20011227015333.7755.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <42B14BF6-FA78-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Wednesday, December 26, 2001, at 05:53 PM, Dr. Evil wrote:
>> What does airport 'security' do about those sneakers that
>> flash upon heelstrike?
>
> They should be seized and destroyed by the fashion cops.

A clear Title 7 violation in these unfree Beknighted States, as it is 
negros who wear these shoes by about a 99-1 ratio (the remaining one 
percent being suburban white kids trying to be niggaz).



--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From tani5 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 26 17:04:57 2001
From: tani5 at hotmail.com (Tania Arostegui)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:04:57 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 26 01:57:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:57:20 +1100
Subject: Big Bang Thought Experiment 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226204142.00a4db70@pop.useoz.com>


jamesd>>>While issue of a purely fiat digital currency without state 
backing would be an interesting experiment, such a currency could never 
gain value, never become useful as a medium of exchange. <<

If it started as one unit of barter value that was level with the dollar 
and floated with it,then its scalable and could and should overtake the 
dollar at some point.(phase transition or slow fade of D?) Any interference 
punishable by APster,certain death.Many details remain but you seem 
mistaken on this,if its hopeless,why bother?

 >>However the niche market where most people expect the introduction of 
digital cash is internet transactions, where breaking the defaulter's neck 
is not a viable option<<

You must have APster justice.You have all the horsemen loose so there must 
be a rein or the masses will support the corrupt,rancid state's 
crackdown.Not that the crackdown will succeed entirely,new attempts will 
surely follow.
Huge bombproof remailers,APster backup of contract law and e-cash based on 
what you know best.The value of your labor.

"Four hundred billionaires now possess wealth equal to that of the 3 
billion poorest people on the planet. This capitalist system is inherently 
violent, oppressive and exploitative. Capitalism cannot be reformed, and 
that's why we need to abolish it."




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Dec 26 21:11:36 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:11:36 -0800
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227154837.00a61ad0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C2A3D08.27854.2C3ADD0@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > The story of the Russian radical left is full of 
> > hypocrisy, betrayal and murder. The story of the 
> > Catalonian radical left is also full of very similar 
> > hypocrisy, betrayal and murder, with the added twist that 
> > in Catalonia the anarchist nomenclatura was sold by the 
> > anarchist leadership into the hands of their enemies.

Mattd:
> Um,anarchists being sold out by "leadership".Anarchists 
> don't have leadership

The Catalonian "anarchists" needed a leadership in order to 
impose socialism, resulting in such bizarre and amusing 
titles as "Anarchist minister of the economy".  This had the 
usual unfortunate side effect that the midlevel militants, 
the nomenclatura that operated the bureacracy, the prisons, 
and the killing fields, found themselves utterly powerless in 
the hands of their leaders, as was illustrated when the
leadership casually dissolved the local committees. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     v+zbU0vMFX8/pwb8tuOYQFryuGlaH+5wrg6q05lr
     4N7e11aL+xUWiNqbTYVUBBlQJxgy76S8LyRz5Y2cJ




From o20204 at quepasa.com  Wed Dec 26 19:22:30 2001
From: o20204 at quepasa.com (o20204 at quepasa.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:22:30 -0500
Subject: Boost Your Windows Reliability.......                         22217
Message-ID: <000029471af6$00006bf9$000056c9@inet.com.ua>

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From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Dec 26 15:49:55 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 26 Dec 2001 23:49:55 -0000
Subject: Explosive smuggling (@#%$@# deleted)
In-Reply-To: <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>
  (pcmontecucchi@compuserve.com)
References:  <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>
Message-ID: <20011226234955.12584.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> And the current monitoring systems... Do they work to detect the
> presence of explosives in the physiological duct?

No, not at all.  There were a few articles on that grim subject pretty
recently.  Bottom line: There is no technology available today that
would work in a practical way to do this.  They are working on some
things that could do it, but they will all be slow and expensive and
they may expose passengers to X-rays or neutrons or something in order
to work.  One side "benefit" of these things is they will also be
effective against drug smuggling.  The risk is very real; a woman
could carry several pounds of explosives.  "They" are aware of this
but there isn't much they can do right now.

The way I see it, there are currently three risks to air travel which
are simply inherent in the current reality of the system.  One is
explosives or other weapons smuggled in the body.  Two is the risk of
the plane being taken down from an external weapon, like a missile or
even a big machinegun on the ground.  Three is the risk of pilot
suicide.  I don't see that there is a technological solution to any of
these attacks, and they are all real.

Weapons smuggled in the body: I'm not sure if this has ever happened
yet, but tons of drugs make their way around the world at a steady
98.6, so this is a real possibility.

A missile from the ground: Many shoulder-launched missiles go
"missing" every year, including ones from the US military.  Many have
been given to the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan while they were fighting
the Soviets.  Certainly the Pakistani ISI, and the Iraqis and Lybians
and North Koreans have easy access to these things.  Even if a
terrorist can't get a missile, I would imagine that a plain old 50 cal
machinegun, somewhere in the approach path of the planes, would
probably be able to do the job.

Pilot suicide: It is accepted by everyone but the Egyptians that pilot
suicide was the cause of the Egypt Air crash in 1999.  It is accepted
by everyone that the cause of the Silk Air crash in December of 1997
was pilot suicide.  How common is pilot suicide?  Those are the only
two that I know of.

We will end up doing many expensive and harmful things to achieve a
goal (perfect air safety) which is impossible to achieve.  Taking away
nail clippers is not the answer.




From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com  Wed Dec 26 15:08:47 2001
From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 00:08:47 +0100
Subject: Explosive dicks and assholes (was: C4 commercial web page)
References: 
Message-ID: <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>


<< I can see it now.  Airports everywhere employing teams of proctologists
 while passengers bend over for the safty checks.>>

And the current monitoring systems... Do they work to detect the presence of
explosives in the physiological duct?

Sincerely,

Pier Carlo


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: "Anonymous" 
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: Explosive dicks and assholes (was: C4 commercial web page)


>
> On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:
>
> > >Density: 1.63 g/cm3
> >
> > My dick, unerect, is about 12 cm long and has 3.5 cm radius.
>
> Thats a small dick.  I assume it has growth potential.
>
> But my recommendations are not to use your dick for the explosives.  Use
> your asshole.  You can stuff a whole wad of explosive materials up
> there.  And there is a precedent for that sort of thing.  Prisoners have
> been using their assholes for centuries to move contraban.
>
> I can see it now.  Airports everywhere employing teams of proctologists
> while passengers bend over for the safty checks.
>
> regards
> joe
>
> >
> > This makes for 37 cm3, or about 60 grams (2 oz) of C4.
> >
> > 60 grams can pierce the aircraft hull no problemo.
> >
> > So, the question is, how do you tell between plastic C4 dick and genuine
> > meat without close tactile observation at the security checkpoint ?
> >
> > Beware of arabs/israelis humping aircraft walls.
> >
>
> --
> The dot.GOD Registry, Limited
>
> http://www.dot-god.com/




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Wed Dec 26 17:53:33 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 27 Dec 2001 01:53:33 -0000
Subject: Explosive smuggling (@#%$@# deleted)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011226174451.007efb80@pop.sprynet.com> (message
  from David Honig on Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:44:51 -0800)
References: <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>
  
  <000001c18e62$b3e8c440$1ba1fea9@chincilla>
  <3.0.6.32.20011226174451.007efb80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011227015333.7755.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> No one has yet mentioned surgically implanted explosives.  
> You could carry more than a twat's worth.
> You'd need a mechanical or chemical trigger to avoid
> electronics-detection.  Think: punch yourself 6 cm left
> of the scar, to push the plunger.  

Yeah, there have definitely been cases of surgically implanted drug
smuggling, so surigcal explosives wouldn't be surprising either.  A
good plastic (haha) surgeon might be able to implant 10lbs or more,
easily enough to bring down a plane.  Breast implants would be the
obvious place to put it, because they certainly can't open up every
woman who wants to get on a plane with "augmentation" so what can you
do?  Even if they CAT scanned every passenger, and breast implants
showed up on the scan, what could they do about it?  "We're going to
have to cut you open and take a sample of that breast material."  This
is starting to sound like an Austin Powers sequel...  Except
unfortunately this could be a grim reality, not a joke.

I remember reading about a drug smuggler who was stopped because his
legs were "unusual" looking.  They opened them up and found out that
the purpose of his trip was "business".

The solution to this problem might be greater use of high-speed
trains, video conferencing, and other things to make air travel less
necessary.

> What does airport 'security' do about those sneakers that
> flash upon heelstrike?

They should be seized and destroyed by the fashion cops.




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 27 06:50:15 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 06:50:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Explosive smuggling (@#%$@# deleted)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011226181321.033253e0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20011227145015.19777.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>


> High-speed trains are almost as much fun to blow up as planes,
> and muckers can do that by blowing up the tracks without
> even having to get on the train.

This just means that the era  of centralized transportation is nearing its end.

There are multiple possible choices for the future (most americans are already
exercising one), but it seems inevitable that concentrated and therefore
vulnerable transportation is doomed.

Predictably, highly-structured and organized societies have developed their own
cancer and it seems unlikely that anything can be done about it.

One route that is being tried by many nation-states - dumbing down the average
population to the point of practical illiteracy (making them subject to ruling
by technology alone) and docile acceptance of ad hoc genital/rectal security
checks - does not seem to work, since it reduces profits and foments rebellion.

A suicide-oriented individual with a modest support can blow up any commercial
aircraft or train. Or bus. Witness the futility of profiling - I predict that
the next attempt will be made by chinese or a bushman or a white danish
businessman working on behalf of a competing gov-enterprise.

Time to start building my own super-light aircraft.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com




From remailer at aarg.net  Thu Dec 27 08:45:54 2001
From: remailer at aarg.net (AARG! Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:45:54 -0800
Subject: P2P Stego Treasure Hunt
Message-ID: 


We've put into Morpheus a song, 
"Grayson_Shoot_The_Piano_Player.mp3"
which has a stego'd message in it.
The tool is mp3stego v 1.1.15 
(source available; see  

) and the (3DES) passphrase is "writecode"

Another file "DrDidg_RaveOn.mp3" has
another message under the same passphrase.

We are curious how readily the Morpheus search
engine can be used for transport purposes.  In
this instance we give unique names to files not
otherwise found in the system.  Another experiment
in P2P percolation would be to add similar 
'watermarks' (microdots) to files which are 
abundantly replicated.



(Stego Reminder/Caveat: use *original* content for true stealth
else presence of watermark is detected with diff on clean rip)




From cypherpunks at ssz.com  Thu Dec 27 11:20:57 2001
From: cypherpunks at ssz.com (BuildToday)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:20:57 -0800
Subject: Galaxy Depot
Message-ID: <056654112191bc1FE7@mail7.mmcable.com>


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====================
Removel Instuctions:

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You will then be removed from any future email contact. Thank you.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 26 21:13:30 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:13:30 +1100
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227154837.00a61ad0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>The Trots I encountered in Australia seemed remarkably similar to the 
Trotsky that I found in the history books. Perhaps that is why they called 
themselves Trotskyists.<<

  I attack the aussi trots at every chance.It helps not to confuse them 
with anarchists. 57 varieties and all of them poisonous

 >>The story of the Russian radical left is full of hypocrisy, betrayal and 
murder. The story of the Catalonian radical left is also full of very 
similar hypocrisy, betrayal and murder, with the added twist that in 
Catalonia the anarchist nomenclatura was sold by the anarchist leadership 
into the hands of their enemies.<<

Um,anarchists being sold out by "leadership".Anarchists don't have 
leadership,if they did they did they wouldn't be anarchists.The story of 
every political movement is full of hypocrisy, betrayal and murder.That's 
why I choose anarchism to minimize my chances of those things happening to me.

 >>The differences that seem so big and important from the inside, are 
small from the outside. <<

You should't hang with 'punks into C/anarchy then,are you insane?The police 
state might crucify you.
Chompsky seems to have not addressed anarchism for over 20 years.His essay 
remains the best hirstorical one Ive seen on Spain.(Objectivity and liberal 
scholarship)

 >>I notice that you approvingly cite Huben's FAQ, whose central argument 
is that the federal government is the rightful owner of everything in the 
USA. <<

I read widely and quote selectively and sometimes provocatively,thanks for 
the heads up on Huben.The central argument of the federal govt seems to be 
that they own the friggin world.The best way to shake them of that 
misconception seems to me to be anarchy.libertarian 
socialist,crypto-anarchic good old fashioned ANARCHY.Viva,anarchia,VIVA!




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Dec 27 16:46:42 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:46:42 -0800
Subject: Explosive smuggling
In-Reply-To: <7b19d66ebbb7a8115da71ed9e57d8556@ecn.org>
Message-ID: <5C3B3E70-FB2C-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Thursday, December 27, 2001, at 02:34 PM, Anonymous wrote:

>>> A good plastic (haha) surgeon might be able to implant 10lbs or more,
> easily enough to bring down a plane.  Breast implants would be the
> obvious place to put it, because they certainly can't open up every
> woman who wants to get on a plane with "augmentation" so what can you
> do? <<
>

Gives new meaning to "Show us your tits!"

Having seen a bunch of bad boob jobs, where they look like they're read 
to explode even without HE in 'em, I don't envy the job of the Bod Squad.

> It takes a few weeks to heal from
> abdomen surgery that could be done
> in a field hospital.  How to sleep
> without rolling over on the lump
> which is the activator is the tough
> part.

Easy to imagine safer activators. A magnet arrangment, where an external 
magnet pulls something. A dual activator system, where two switches must 
be closed simultaneously, ampoules to be broken or pierced under the 
skin, and so on.

A person willing to martyr himself is almost assured of being able to 
take down a plane. Here's something I wrote in another, more subversive 
forum:

"
For people willing to martyr themselves, there is very little hope that
these suicide bombings can be stopped. Planes are just too easy to
destroy (not being armored and all).

Think about mules carrying balloons of cocaine into the U.S. Now think
of those balloons carrying C4 or Semtex instead. Now think of ways to
dissolve those balloons with the right intake of food. (This is already
an issue with coke mules, who cannot eat certain foods as the acids
produced will degrade/rupture the latex condoms and suchlike that they
use.)

Think of those explosives not being a shoe but being anally or
vaginally carried. Not that difficult to pack several ounces of high
explosive this way.

As for sniffers finding these things...the signals are already being
lost in the noise. Dogs can find certain kinds of explosives, but are
fooled by others. And the vapor emissions can be very, very low.
(Nothing is ever "zero" on a log scale, of course, but something sealed
inside a glass ampoule and very thoroughly rinsed with water and
alcohol and benzene and such is about as close to "no emissions" as one
can imagine.)

If I were an attacker trying to cripple the U.S. and European airline
industries--thus dealing a devastating economic blow--and I had a ready
supply of mules willing to martyr themselves, I would find this a rich
hunting ground of potential attacks.

Planes have always been soft targets. The insurance-related bombs of
the 1950s and 60s, the hijackings of the early 70s, and the various
bombings of several planes in the 80s and 90s (Lockerbie, Air India, a
few other unexplained "energetic disassemblies"). And now the 911
events and the shoebomber.

Me, I haven't flown in a few years. Nothing has needed it. And with the
police state search procedures and potential dangers, I plan to avoid
flying for as long as I can. Fortunately, here in California, nearly
any kind of recreation or family event (in my case) can be reached
easily enough by car, or by rail.
"

>
--Tim May
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third 
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're 
around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 26 21:48:15 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:48:15 +1100
Subject: James people play
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227164138.00aa0a90@pop.useoz.com>


DECEMBER 26 -- JAMES EADS HOW
Patron Saint of the Boxcar Traveler.
http://www.hobo.org/
http://www.reed.edu/~dmorton/

1787 -- Framed?: Anti-Federalist mob, displeased that
a Pennsylvania State Convention ratified the US
Constitution, attack a framer of the document, James
Wilson, with barrel staves & nearly kill him

1865 -- Perky?: James Nason invents coffee percolator.

Spanish for james? 1917 -- Josi Peiro Olives lives. Son of the Spanish
anarcho-syndicalist theorist & militant, Juan Peiro Belis.
From
The: Daily Bleed  Subject: Daily Bleed:




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 26 21:56:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:56:25 +1100
Subject: FIRE BUSH
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227165423.00aa54c0@pop.useoz.com>


What to do if a bushfire approaches your house
7 Wet the roof and garden.
7 Turn on sprinkler system (if you have one).
7 Clear leaves and branches from around the house.
7 Clear gutters.
. Kill the president.
7 Move flammable items (boxes, garden furniture) away from house.
7 Move flammable items (boxes, garden furniture) away from house.
7 Block downpipes and fill gutters with water.
7 Place wet towels and blankets against gaps under doors and windows.
7 Dress in protective clothing: sturdy leather footwear, long pants and
long sleeved shirt or jumper (preferably wool), broad-brimmed hat, goggles,
handkerchiefs to tie over nose and mouth.
7 Fill baths, sinks and buckets with water.
7 If you intend to evacuate, plan well ahead of time where to stay and how
to travel.
7 If staying, go inside as fire front approaches and remain inside until
the fire has passed.
7 Close heavy curtains, close shutters if you have them.
7 For several hours after the fire front has passed, patrol your property
and put out spot fires started by flying embers.
7 Check roof cavity frequently for spot fires.
Source: NSW Rural Fire Service




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 26 22:33:19 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:33:19 +1100
Subject: Joshua on probable death list
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227172727.00a4c090@pop.useoz.com>


Just noticed the current list of names most commonly issued to new-born 
babies in NSW.
The most popular name for a boy is Joshua.(matt's brahms and litszt)
Other lists are more confusing. Take a look at the recently published list 
of supermarket products which have generated the most business in the past 
year. Then look at the list of poisons which have most frequently 
occasioned calls to the NSW Poisons Information Centre. It would be easy to 
mistake one list for the other. The most successful supermarket line, for 
the umpteenth year in a row, is Coke.(famous for having unionizers wacked 
south of the border.)
After Coke comes four separate brands of tobacco, Longbeach being the 
winner among them and second overall. By comparison, the most worrying 
poison seems quite benign. It is paracetamol. Indeed, six out of the 10 top 
poisons can be bought at Franklins or Coles. If your supermarket is 
infested with spiders, you can make that seven. And if you are willing to 
class junk food as either an antidepressant or a sedative, you can make it 
nine.(put CATO down there)
This is particularly true at the end of the year. This time is so frenetic 
that I need a list of lists. After Christmas comes the list of people you 
have forgotten to buy something for. This is a good list to get onto, if 
you can, as the instinct to make amends often means you end up with a 
better present in the long run. And, of course, there is the list of new 
year's resolutions. (Kill the president?I really wish they'd all just vamoose.)
I have a modest proposal. Lists are about fulfilling obligations. Yet the 
one which might include a few obligations to yourself, the list of 
resolutions, is always the first to fall by the wayside. Just drop it.
The wise tell us that a difficult resolution is best kept a day at a time. 
Make a fresh list every day. Even if the same things are on it as yesterday.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 26 22:49:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:49:42 +1100
Subject: Tim May on the end of a rope. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227173717.00a8d870@pop.useoz.com>


 >>The Catalonian "anarchists" needed a leadership in order to
impose socialism, resulting in such bizarre and amusing
titles as "Anarchist minister of the economy". This had the
usual unfortunate side effect that the midlevel militants,
the nomenclatura that operated the bureacracy, the prisons,
and the killing fields, found themselves utterly powerless in
the hands of their leaders, as was illustrated when the
leadership casually dissolved the local committees. <<

Anarchist minister for justice! Yeah,Its funny how things went.Many grass 
roots anarchs knew all was lost by then and the revolution was well and 
truly lost shortly after it was won.See "homage to Catalonia."Hugh 
Thomas,then your stuff,then if your a thinking punk,see,"Objectivity and 
liberal scholarship".Luckily we'll have APster to revoce and rotate those 
anarchist "leaders" of the crypto-anarchist revolution that will try and 
sell us out.(such as that anarcho-charlatan, Tim May)

  "nine-tenths of everything written about the Spanish Civil War is a lie". 
George Orwell.




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Dec 27 18:05:05 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:05:05 -0800
Subject: Fear and Trembling
In-Reply-To: <7b19d66ebbb7a8115da71ed9e57d8556@ecn.org>
Message-ID: 


The next major attack will not likely involve civilian aircraft; 
that target has been effectively crippled, wounded not killed
so that  resources must be squandered to care for it.

More likely will be a target (or targets) which provides a 
sense of security and does not appear to be a source of 
danger and fear. Where there are few protections in place, and
where the shock of attack will be maximized, not just
in casualities but in its unexpectedness.

The attack should have the effect on Western culture,
say, that bombing of Mecca would have on Islam. That is,
it should be so violently audacious that long-standing
presumptions that the enemy would never do such a
thing are overwhelmed.

Under this scenario attack by weapons of mass destruction 
are not likely because of the overplay of their possible use.

What then would be such an attack, least expected and
most likely to be unprotected against?

Most likely is a widely distributed attack, perhaps simultaneous
but best to be staggered or unpredictable in time and how
extensive the attack is and what all its targets are. With
unpredictable pauses in the campaign, a combination of
rapid fire hits, pauses, seeming cessation, then a hit or
two, weird and shocking concordances and discordances
with other events, violations and cruelties beyond conventional
belief, beyond reason and madness.

A clue to understanding what an attack like this would be is
to imagine what would cause battle shock in the citizenry,
not terror and flight, but incapacitation of the mind and body
to function without physically harming most of the victims.

One likely cause of this breakdown is lack of information
about what is going on and what will happen next, where danger
lies and when will violence against loved ones and self occur
next. Dread of the unknown after initial evidence that horror
is sure to come, and is inexcapable no matter what measures
have been taken to prevent it.

By now it is clear that this is what the US military did in 
Afghanistan, and what is most likely to be done to the US
and its allies in vengeful payback, if not soon then eventually.

Calling in F-15s to combat shoes containing explosives shows
how Western military forces helplessly misgauge its enemies. So,
too, does declaring the US has won in Afghanistan when it has not
engaged the enemy, and when it has repeatedly failed to protect 
its forces, its embassies and its cities from asymmetric attack.

The US and its allies is fiercest in engaging in propaganda,
ably assisted by commercial propagandists, the news media.
Beheading the centers of information warfare would be the end 
of Western culture.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 26 23:17:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:17:20 +1100
Subject: Explosive decompression.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227180745.00a523c0@pop.useoz.com>


 >> A good thing most places I want to travel to I can get to by car. --Tim 
May <<

Keep an eye out for anarchists with uzi's,niggaz with attitude and 
Catherine Trammel.shooter.

""They knew I wasn't planning to kill federal agents", Bell said this 
month. "They were scared because I had written something that shows a way 
to eliminate government. They were afraid I could convince the public that 
I could replace existing government for no more than a 10th or 20th of its 
current cost."
"Imagine for a moment that, as ordinary citizens were watching the evening 
news, they see an act by a government employee or officeholder that they 
feel violates their rights, abuses the public's trust or misuses the powers 
that they feel should be limited. What if they could go to their computers, 
type in the miscreant's name, and select a dollar amount. If 0.1 percent of 
the population, or one person in a thousand, was willing to pay $1 to see 
some government slimeball dead,(or some ordinary anarcho-capitalist 
slimeball) that would be in effect, a $250,000 bounty on his head."
I think that one last (temporary) hope for government is to delay APster. 
Chances are good that the "think tank" decided that the best way to delay 
APster is to discredit me, its author. It was a desperate gamble, 
particularly because the act of harassing me automatically gives APster 
more publicity. That's the reason they will fail; the more they try to 
"get" me, the worse it will be for them." Your gps is in the mail May.




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec 26 23:51:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:51:01 +1100
Subject: Your funeral...my trial.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227184710.00a90b40@pop.useoz.com>


Red Right Hand
Take a little walk to the edge of town
Go across the tracks
Where the viaduct looms,
like a bird of doom
As it shifts and cracks
Where secrets lie in the border fires,
in the humming wires
Hey man, you know
you're never coming back
Past the square, past the bridge,
past the mills, past the stacks
On a gathering storm comes
a tall handsome man
In a dusty black coat with
a red right hand

He'll wrap you in his arms,
tell you that you've been a good boy
He'll rekindle all the dreams
it took you a lifetime to destroy
He'll reach deep into the hole,
heal your shrinking soul
Hey buddy, you know you're
never ever coming back
He's a god, he's a man,
he's a ghost, he's a guru
They're whispering his name
through this disappearing land
But hidden in his coat
is a red right hand

You ain't got no money?
He'll get you some
You ain't got no car? He'll get you one
You ain't got no self-respect,
you feel like an insect
Well don't you worry buddy,
cause here he comes
Through the ghettos and the barrio
and the bowery and the slum
A shadow is cast wherever he stands
Stacks of green paper in his
red right hand
He's mumbling words you can't understand
He's mumbling word behind his red right hand.




From heather at thenewpornsite.com  Thu Dec 27 15:57:19 2001
From: heather at thenewpornsite.com (heather at thenewpornsite.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:57:19 -0500
Subject: Nude teens from India
Message-ID: <200112280154.TAA15242@einstein.ssz.com>


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From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec 27 19:15:43 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 19:15:43 -0800
Subject: Fear and Trembling
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011227191543.007e9af0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:53 PM 12/27/01 -0800, John Young wrote:
>Targets for centers of these exports are not hard to
>identify, 

After the WTC, the only truly theatrically worth it
encore I can think of is a stinger at the space shuttle.
This would not trepan the serpent but would
kick the angst up a notch.

Then again, there's always Utah...




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Dec 27 20:10:31 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:10:31 -0800
Subject: Scannerpunks versus the Empire
In-Reply-To: <20011228014510.564.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 


On Thursday, December 27, 2001, at 05:45 PM, Dr. Evil wrote:
> Sniffers are one way to detect things, but as you point out, it is
> possible to get emissions so low that they cannot be detected.
> However, the new methods are based on other exotic things like neutron
> scanning and mass spec, which can detect chemical composition, right?

Tough to do NAA on a living person. Likewise for getting a sample from 
the inside of someone for mass spec.


> Also things like CAT scan X-rays and maybe even ultrasound can detect
> different material types; ie, bone and flesh look different, so
> perhaps C4 has a different X-ray opacity than other things?  With
> things like neutron scanning, it should be possible to detect stuff
> anywhere in the body, perhaps?  That's why boobs are the perfect place
> for this.  A big homogenous-opacity shape in a body cavity or the
> abdomen is suspicious, but boob implants are "normal".

All of these scanning technologies are ultra-expensive. Even for 
hospitals, where such scans routinely cost thousands of dollars. While a 
security scan may be faster (less analysis by doctors...), and while 
there may be economies of scale (as the number of scans jumps from 
hospital-type numbers to airline-travel-type numbers), the math is 
clear: deploying an arsenal of NMR scans, x-ray body scans (lawsuit 
issues, too), etc. will not be economically feasible. People will stop 
traveling by air unless absolutely necessary, which will accomplish  the 
effect the terrorists sought.
>

> I know little or nothing about these things.  Maybe someone can give
> us a summary of the different super-scanning technologies?

There are dozens of explanations on the Web. I can't imagine anyone 
knowledgeable will write such an article for you, though I could be 
wrong. For one thing, time. For another, relevance, as we are not 
scannerpunks.
>
> Interesting stuff.  At the beginning of the 20th Century, four
> countries had the opportunity to become empires: The US, the Russians,
> the Germans and the Japanese.  After much bloodshed, the US won (I'm
> glad about that, especially when you look at the alternatives).  Now
> the US is having to put up with some of the unpleasant aspects of
> being an empire, and that's why we're even discussing neutron scanning
> to detect explosive boobs (aka "booby traps").

Speaking of the U.S. having "won" the opportunity to become an empire, 
why not think about alternatives?

I can imagine that a North American continent operating as roughly 5-15 
regional states, each trading freely with each other, with none of them 
sending gunboats to far off shores and none of them sending taxpayer 
monies to prop up dictatorships and satrapies would be an improvement. 
My own state, California, is already the sixth largest economy in the 
world. (Before someone jumps in with a claim that the only reason 
California thrives and can trade with China and Japan and Mexico and so 
on is because the U.S. government intervened in past European and Asian 
war and now sends $5 billion a year to prop up Israel, I don't believe 
it. We can debate one specific war, WW II, as a separate issue. Even 
that war could have been fought from this side of the oceans with 5-15 
regional states, if necessary.)

Empire is not necessary. Empire brings on precisely the foreign 
engagements that Washington warned us to avoid. Empire  brings on "peace 
keeping troops" in far-away lands...and attacks like 911. Empire will 
eventually get us nuked.


--Tim May
"Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But 
stupidity is the only universal crime;  the sentence is death, there is 
no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." 
--Robert A. Heinlein




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 01:15:07 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:15:07 +1100
Subject: Out of control
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227200016.00a5b720@pop.useoz.com>


The sky is just black and the sun is a red ball in the sky and ash is 
covering everything."

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAG02J2QVC.html

Still they did have one warning,3 days and 1 month before TMs Gotterdammerung.)

 >Message for john Howard
 >by the base au 2:02am Mon Nov 12 '01 (Modified on 9:56am Mon Nov 12 '01)
 >The Base au.today warns the new govt.to withdraw from the crusaders 
alliance.
 >AU is vunerable to fruit fly and bushfire hazard.This is well known.The base
 >will not take attacks from your SAS forces lying down.One warning only is 
given.

And no it wasn't me.I suspect Nigel.Hawthorne.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 02:19:43 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:19:43 +1100
Subject: Sacco,Vanzetti and the New England Mafia
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227211241.00a54370@pop.useoz.com>


A member of the new england mafia was said to have bragged about committing 
the crime for which the anarchists were murdered in cold blood by the 
state.The region that gave us the Kennedy crime family and the Bush now 
suffers...
Bush action gives safe harbor to FBI `terrorists'
by Howie Carr c/o jorlin grabbe.
Friday, December 14, 2001
So President Bush, fighting terrorism abroad, now invokes executive 
privilege to keep us from getting to the bottom of FBI terrorism back home.
I don't understand. Except in terms of the body count, what's the 
difference between an al-Qaeda savage on Tora Bora and a crooked G-man in 
Boston?
A badge, and that's about it.
They both kill Americans or help fiends who do. And when they're 
confronted, they run away and hide. The Arabs cower in caves, the retired 
FBI agents sun themselves in Florida.
Considering what we already know about the 30-year crime wave engineered by 
the Boston office of the FBI, how much worse stuff must there be in those 
files that we still don't know about?
And now we may never know, thanks to Bush's invocation of executive privilege.
And another thing: If this sort of FBI misconduct has been going on in 
Boston, which is, let's face it, a Mafia backwater, then what exactly do 
you suppose the feds have been up to in places like Chicago and New York? 
We know something about the ``rogue'' FBI agent in New York who tipped off 
one faction in the Colombo crime family to the machinations of another 
crew, leading to various rubouts and attempted hits.
Now you have to figure that there's worse stuff out there, much worse.
Why else would Bush wait to do this until the same day that they release 
the Osama videotape, make the official announcement renouncing the ABM 
treaty, and come ever closer to finishing off the terrorists in Tora Bora.
Bush and Ashcroft were trying to bury the story.
Not releasing these radioactive FBI files is so important that the 
Republican administration thumbed its nose at the Republican House of 
Representatives. Immediately affected was Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.) who 
subpoenaed the documents relating to the FBI's use of informants in Boston 
dating back to the 1960s.
``They don't want to create a precedent,'' said one Boston attorney 
yesterday. ``But the problem is, this can of worms is already opened.''
Is it ever. Back in 1965, the feds got word that Teddy Deegan, a small-time 
hood (and uncle of future Dukakoid criminal Gerry Indelicato) was on the 
Lucky Strike Hit Parade. The feds didn't tell Deegan he was going to get 
hit, and guess what. He got hit.
The FBI knew who whacked Deegan, but they still let four guys who didn't do 
it go to prison for 30 years, where two of them died, innocent men. The FBI 
dummied up as their own hitman-turned-informant perjured himself, to 
protect the brother of another gangster they were grooming as their next 
big rat, one Steve Flemmi.
Osama had a jihad against the infidels, and that justified absolutely 
anything. The FBI had a jihad against the Italians, and ditto.
As usually happens whenever somebody thinks God is on their side, the 
bodies started piling up. The FBI's hoods needed multiple death pits to 
hide the corpses. Young girls were raped, city neighborhoods were flooded 
with cocaine, the state payrolls were inundated with gangsters. 
Law-enforcement was subverted - local, state and federal.
President Bush, I believe we have a right to know how a federal agency 
aided and abetted serial killers.
``I believe,'' Bush wrote, ``congressional access to these documents would 
be contrary to the national interest.''
But these gangsters and their crooked-cop enablers were going after 
American citizens.
Howie Carr's radio show can be heard every weekday afternoon on WRKO-AM 
680, WHYN-AM 560, WGAN-AM 560, WXTK 95.1 FM or online at www.howiecarr.org.
Howie Carr Talk Back

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/columnists/carr12142001.htm




From jya at pipeline.com  Thu Dec 27 21:53:39 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:53:39 -0800
Subject: Fear and Trembling
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


There are a relative few choke points for information distribution
in the West. Not all would have to be taken out at the same time,
only a few, then a pause to process intelligence garnered from
the second attack along with that of the first was on the WTC 
and Pentagon (the anthrax attack provided intelligence for 
the same planners whether done by them or planned for a 
later intel-gathering operation).

The short-lived patriotism after WTC/Pentagon has been
transformed into uncritical jingoism in the US and surprisingly
in the copycat UK.

There has been a stead build-up of intelligence by fire from
the various bombings of US installations leading up to WYC
and the Pentagon, as several military and intellgience analysts 
have noted. And still the US and its allies have not been able
to halt the attacks, despite round-up of a few low level operatives
and convictions -- but no public execution or other merciless
acts of retribution, or none that have been publicized.

The Afghan bombing has been exhibited as relatively bloodless
except for the killing of journalists and a single CIA officer --
agents of information which have become the pariahs of
many societies, not all of them non-Western.

What would have an effect in the West is not only attacks on
the infrastructure of information and its celebrated leaders
but its variety of participants -- students, teachers, preachers,
educators, journalists, publicists, ad writers, entertainers,
intellectual property creators and producers and exporters,
lawyers and a slew of professionals. These are the sources
of the offensive content and the tools, hardware, and weapons
that accompany the content, that drive opponents to murderous
rage in defense of their own cultural content.


The Western conceit that its culture is so superior that it
must impose it on others through missionary campaigns
now many centuries old, through economic policies, through 
eduation, through foreign policies, through military enforcement,
and through disparagement of other cultures, has bred a
deep seated anger toward the prime exporters, the idea
supremacists of state, church and family.

Despite tolerant pretensions, the West has been the bloodiest
culture that ever existed, and is getting meaner and more
vicious as its technological prowess grows and its intellectual
abilities decline -- as with all powerful bandits which get more
stupid as they conquer by force.

The US superpower vainglory is what keeps it ever blind to
the weakness of its power: it's obessession with secrecy
and belief that hardware will prevail over software, those
standard signs of power corruption preceding a fall.

All power aggrandizement thrives on cloaking its predations
with claims of superiority -- state, church and family -- and
refusal to consider that it is not as good as it dreams of
being, that is, the powerful take promotional material for 
reality.

Empires are susceptible to having their illusions shattered
when their cosmeticians lose their skill at concealing the
rot. Or to put it another way, when long successful cosmetic
schemes lose their power to deceive.

The US military is a shell of an effective military operation,
sustained more by publicity than by successful action. It
has had no enemy to test its promise since WW2 when it
gained a foothold in US culture through citizen military
service and luxurious payoffs to industry and education,
especially education and training for advancing Western 
culture through economic, political and social exports.

Targets for centers of these exports are not hard to
identify, and they are not nuclear plants, bridges,
water supplies, and digital infrastructure, probably not
even Washington DC icons of political power -- these
are propounded as in urgent need of protection to divert
attention from crucial nodes.

Again, to see which are juicy targets for undermining
Western culture, look to those hardly protected at
all except by obscurity, by never being mentioned as
needing protection, by never promoted as ideas, places and 
people of influence, by being those supporters of Western
culture which are so fundamental to it the culture would
not be identifiable without them.

These targets are not celebrated, they are taken for
granted as if to last forever, well, as long as King George
lasted on the American continent (his reign did not end
with the American revolution but went overground into
our most distinguished institutions of rank, privilege, 
elitism, secrecy, deceit and conceit).




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 03:27:35 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 22:27:35 +1100
Subject: Argentina's new money.Licence to print e-cash?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227222215.00a54780@pop.useoz.com>


Mr Rodriguez Saa, 54, governor of the central Argentinian province of San 
Luis, became Argentina's third president in four days. He said he will not 
devalue the peso or dollarise the economy but will introduce a new currency 
to operate alongside the peso, which has been pegged at one to the dollar 
for the past decade.
The new coinage is aimed at injecting liquidity to get money into the hands 
of ordinary Argentinians. Essentially, it is a licence to print extra money.
Mr Rodriguez Saa said: "This is not a rejection of foreign debt but rather 
the first move by a rational government to deal with the foreign debt 
correctly." Asked how he expects international banks and financial 
institutions to respond to anticipated deep losses, Mr Rodriguez Saa said: 
"International markets will react well because we will negotiate with them."
Speaking in a packed Congress, where he was named president after a 15-hour 
session, Mr Rodriguez Saa said that the people would have priority over 
crippling debt payments, adding: "Let's take the bull by the horns."
He said Argentina, which has been in recession for nearly three years, 
would not permanently shun its obligations. Mr Rodriguez Saa replaced Ramon 
Puerta, who was acting president while congressional leaders sought a 
replacement for Fernando de la Rua.
Mr de la Rua, who said two months ago that there would be "no devaluation, 
no default," resigned last Thursday after street protests against his 
austerity measures.
Mr Rodriguez Saa suggested that Mr de la Rua's policies had punished 
ordinary Argentinians. "They gave priority to the payment of the foreign 
debt over the payment of the debt to its own people," he said, to shouts of 
"Argentina! Argentina!"
Economists have expected a default declaration for months. Argentina, which 
represents 25pc of all emerging market debt, has an unemployment rate of 
18.3pc, with 40pc of the 36m population at or near the poverty line.
Its debt represents 46pc of the nation's $285 billion gross domestic 
product and the nation's benchmark Brady bond, the FRB, is trading at 24pc 
of its face value. Argentina has already received two International 
Monetary Fund bail-outs and some observers have dubbed the economy "the 
slowest train wreck in history".
All Argentine exchange markets have been closed since Friday and are not 
expected to open before tomorrow.
The e-cash,BUM Tsunami is forming its global mexican wave.Collapse of 
governments Imminent.May beshits himself.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 04:15:41 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:15:41 +1100
Subject: Jesus motherfucking christ.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227231030.00a8d9a0@pop.useoz.com>


  Jesus H Christ is Tim May a money changer in the Temple or just drinking 
sea water?"Im in favor of the free market,obviously."creeping shitface Tim 
May.Christmas Day.01.
No Offense
- But Muslims Love
Jesus As Much As Christians
By John Casey
Opinion
The Telegraph - London
12-24-1
Some years ago, an agnostic friend of mine married a Jewish woman who 
practised her faith seriously. He took instruction in Judaism and seemed 
quite likely to convert - but eventually did not. His chief reason was that 
he remained agnostic. But there was another obstacle that surprised even 
himself: "I found that I just did not want to give up Jesus."
In European culture, there is no getting away from Jesus even if you are 
agnostic. True, Nietzsche tried to reject him with detestation and 
contempt, calling him an "idiot", a purveyor of a sick, decadent view of 
the world. Nietzsche thought that the only figure in the New Testament who 
commands respect is Pontius Pilate. Yet the very ferocity of Nietzsche's 
onslaught on Jesus showed how strong in his heart was the image he wanted 
to destroy.
Now, what if my friend had married a Muslim? The interesting thing is that 
he could have kept Jesus - not the Jesus who was the Son of God, 
admittedly, and who was crucified, but certainly the Jesus who was Messiah 
and miracle worker, who conversed regularly with God, who was born of a 
virgin and who ascended into heaven.
Jesus is referred to quite often in the Koran, six times under the title 
"Messiah". Yet I had long supposed that the importance of Jesus as prophet 
in Muslim tradition was not much more than a matter of lip-service, 
something to which Muslims gave (to use Cardinal Newman's distinction) 
"notional" rather than "real" assent.
This impression was strengthened when I went to Ur of the Chaldees in 
southern Iraq and visited the so-called house of Abraham. It is only a few 
piles of sun-baked mud bricks, but you would have expected hundreds of 
Muslim Arabs to be visiting the birth-place of their Patriarch. I saw none 
- whereas the shrines of Muslim martyrs in Najaf and Kerbala were thronged. 
I assumed, therefore, that Jesus must be a marginal figure in the Muslim world.
How wrong this assumption was I have learnt by reading a fascinating and 
instructive book, The Muslim Jesus, by the Cambridge academic Tarif 
Khalidi. Professor Khalidi has brought together, from a vast range of 
sources, most of the stories, sayings and traditions of Jesus that are to 
be found in Muslim piety from the earliest times.
The Muslim Jesus is an ascetic, a man of voluntary poverty, humility and 
long-suffering. He literally turns the other cheek, allowing his face to be 
slapped twice in order to protect two of his disciples. He teaches the 
return of good for evil: "Jesus used to say, 'Charity does not mean doing 
good to him who does good to you . . . Charity means that you should do 
good to him who does you harm.' " He loves the poor and embraces poverty: 
"The day Jesus was raised to heaven, he left behind nothing but a woollen 
garment, a slingshot and two sandals." He preaches against attachment to 
worldly things: "Jesus said, `He who seeks worldly things is like the man 
who drinks sea water: the more he drinks, the more thirsty he becomes, 
until it kills him.' "
Many of the sayings of the Muslim Jesus are clearly derived from Biblical 
sources - "Place your treasures in heaven, for the heart of man is where 
his treasure is"; "Look at the birds coming and going! They neither reap 
nor plough, and God provides for them." Sometimes there is a sort of gloss 
on words of Jesus from the Gospel: "Oh disciples, do not cast pearls before 
swine, for the swine can do nothing with them . . . wisdom is more precious 
than pearls and whoever rejects wisdom is worse than a swine."
He is certainly a wonder-worker. He often raises the dead, and gives his 
disciples power to do the same. More than once he comes across a skull and 
restores it to life, on one occasion granting salvation to a person who had 
been damned. The skulls, like everyone else in these stories, address Jesus 
as "Spirit of God". Once he is even addressed as "Word of God".
I once had a conversation with members of Hizbollah in Beirut. One of them 
said this: "The greatness of Islam is that we combine Judaism and 
Christianity. Jesus freed enslaved hearts, he was able to release human 
feeling, to reveal a kingdom of peace. Jesus's realm was the realm of soul. 
Jesus is soul; Moses is mind, the mind of the legislator. In Islam, we 
interweave both."
This is certainly the Jesus of these stories - the Jesus of the mystical 
Sufi tradition. The great Muslim philosopher Al-Ghazali actually called 
Jesus "Prophet of the heart".
The Muslim Jesus is not divine, but a humble servant of God. He was not 
crucified - Islam insists that the story of the killing of Jesus is false. 
He is, as it were, Jesus as he might have been without St Paul or St 
Augustine or the Council of Nicaea. He is not the cold figure of English 
Unitarianism, and he is less grand than the exalted human of the Arians. As 
you read these stories, what comes across most powerfully is that the 
Muslim Jesus is intensely loved. There is an element of St Francis of Assisi.
It is good to be reminded, especially now, of the intimate connections 
there have been between Islam and Christianity, and how close in spirit 
Muslim and Christian piety can come to each other. Curiously enough, the 
Muslim Jesus, shorn of all claims of divinity, could be more easily held on 
to by my agnostic friend than the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
One other thing: since Muslims deny the Crucifixion, their emphasis has 
been on the wonders surrounding the birth of "Jesus Son of Mary", born as 
his mother sat under a palm tree, and miraculously speaking from within the 
womb. There really is no reason why schools that put on Nativity plays, or 
anyone who wants to insist on the Christian meaning of Christmas, should 
fear that they may offend Muslim sensibilities, for Jesus really is shared 
by both faiths.
The Muslim Jesus by Tarif Khalidi (Harvard University Press) is available 
from Telegraph Books Direct at #15.95 plus #1.99 p&p. To order, call 0870 
155 7222
John Casey is a fellow of Gonville and Caius, Cambridge




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 04:23:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:23:48 +1100
Subject: CHEAPINT.PROMIS.or Assassinating Larry threat?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227231702.00a52770@pop.useoz.com>


WASHINGTON, DC -- Recent moves to beef up intelligence gathering in the 
wake of the September 11th terrorist attacks have civil libertarians 
concerned that law enforcement agencies will entangle many law abiding 
citizens and social justice groups in their surveillance missions. 
Intelligence networks are setting their sights on the Internet, which up to 
now has had no clear privacy guidelines. Under the provisions of the 
inaptly named anti-terrorism act, "USA-PATRIOT," the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation (FBI), National Security Agency (NSA), Central Intelligence 
Agency (CIA), and a number of other smaller law enforcement agencies are 
looking for ways to monitor the Internet and mine useful intelligence from 
it. And new technology makes it easier than ever to spy on the Internet.
Although law enforcement and intelligence agencies claim they are merely 
looking for information to counter future acts of terrorism, the definition 
of "terrorism" is being expanded to cover non-violent groups that have 
traditionally used the Internet to marshal resistance to corporate-inspired 
globalization. Politicians are already painting dissent as "unpatriotic" 
and therefore somehow linked to terrorism.
Meanwhile, a phalanx of software companies, consultants, and defense 
contractors stand to reap billions of dollars over the next few years by 
selling surveillance and information-gathering systems to government 
agencies and the private sector.
Technology Already in the Hands of Law Enforcement
Law enforcement agencies like the FBI already have at their disposal a 
massive information sharing network through which federal, state, local, 
and foreign police forces can exchange information on groups felt to pose a 
threat. The system, RISSNET, or Regional Information Sharing System 
Network, which existed before the September 11th attacks, recently got a 
boost when Congress authorized additional money for it in the USA PATRIOT Act.
RISSNET is a secure intranet that connects 5,700 law enforcement agencies 
in all 50 states, as well as agencies in Ontario and Quebec, the District 
of Columbia, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, and Australia. 
According to sources close to the Washington Metropolitan Police, data on 
targeted local groups such as the Alliance for Global Justice, the 
anti-World Bank/International Monetary Fund activist organization, has been 
shared with other jurisdictions through RISSNET.
RISSNET has also been used to coordinate the monitoring of the activities 
of anti-globalization protestors in Seattle, Quebec City, Philadelphia, Los 
Angeles, Washington DC and Genoa. For example, when the FBI seized network 
server logs from Independent Media Center (IMC) in Seattle during the April 
2001 anti-free trade protests in Quebec City, RISSNET was used to 
coordinate activities across jurisdictional boundaries. The IMC, founded 
during the 1999 WTO protests, allows activists and independent journalists 
to post directly to its site.(anon with no logs kept,needs mirrors.pr)
State and metropolitan police intelligence units also monitor the web sites 
of activist organizations in their jurisdictions. All RISS intelligence is 
archived by an Orwellian-sounding entity called MAGLOCLEN or "Middle 
Atlantic-Great Lakes Organized Crime Law Enforcement Network." There are 
other regional RISS intelligence centers around the country with equally 
mysterious acronyms. MAGLOCLEN, a nerve center headquartered in Newtown, 
Pennsylvania, distributes political intelligence to all police departments 
hooked up to RISSNET.
MAGLOCLEN allows police investigators to link various activist groups and 
members through the Link Association Analysis sub-system, a relational data 
base that identifies the "friends and families" of groups and individuals. 
The Telephone Record Analysis sub-system can call up records of phone calls 
of targeted groups and individuals. A suspect group's banking and other 
commercial data can be monitored by the Financial Analysis sub-system. And 
through a system that would have been the envy of J. Edgar Hoover, police 
and federal agents can also call up profiles that provide specific 
information on the composition of organizations, including their membership 
lists. The Justice Department has instituted a project called RISSNET II, 
which directly links the individual databases contained within the various 
RISS centers.
The FBI also runs its own intranet called Law Enforcement On-line or "LEO," 
which allows it to communicate intelligence with select other law 
enforcement agencies. In the aftermath of September 11th , the FBI is under 
pressure to open up LEO to more police agencies so they can have access to 
more real-time intelligence. If Attorney General John Ashcroft lifts 
restrictions placed on the FBI's collection of political intelligence, 
undoubtedly information on the First Amendment activities of American 
citizens will wind up in the Bureau's computer databases.
"There has been no indication that the FBI needs expanded spying powers," 
says Center for Constitutional Rights attorney Michael Ratner. "We should 
learn from history; spying on dissent is not only unlawful but it is abusive."
This kind of surveillance is not new. In the 1960s and 70s, the FBI's 
Counter Intelligence Program, known as COINTELPRO, was used to gather 
personal details on the lives and habits of a wide array of activists 
ranging from public figures like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., actress Jane 
Fonda and noted pediatrician Benjamin Spock, to members of local anti-war 
and civil rights groups. This information was often used to disrupt lawful 
organizing and protest activities.
A modern-day FBI list might include any group deemed "terrorist" by any law 
enforcement agencies, the military, or criminal prosecutors. That could 
subject organizations as varied -- and unconnected to terrorism -- as Earth 
First, Greenpeace, the American Indian Movement, the Zapatista National 
Liberation Front, ACT UP, and their supporters to a wide array of high-tech 
surveillance and eavesdropping tools.
Chief among spy agency tools is an e-mail sniffing program known as 
Carnivore. Changes brought about by USA-PATRIOT allow federal law 
enforcement officials to petition a secretive federal court called the 
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court for warrants to tap phones, read 
e-mail, or break and enter into homes or offices to conduct searches and 
plant bugging devices. These spy activities can be carried out without 
proof that an organization has links to terrorists or foreign intelligence 
agencies.
To read e-mail the FBI can order an Internet Service Provider to place a 
special monitoring computer called Carnivore (now renamed Data Collection 
System 1000) on its network servers. The FBI can then select the e-mail of 
surveillance targets for capture and storage. Not content with this device, 
the FBI now seeks to expand its surveillance capability to the entire Internet.
Making a Buck off of Government Spying
companies that are positioning themselves to help the government surveill 
the web came out in force at a recent Homeland Security Conference in 
Washington. They included Oracle, Microsoft, Information Builders, Choice 
Point, Man Tech, AMS, and Booz Allen & Hamilton. Government speakers from 
civilian and military agencies all stressed that they urgently need the 
technology to store surveillance-derived intelligence and exchange it with 
other agencies. If these corporations step up to the plate on developing 
new surveillance, monitoring, and biometric ID systems, they stand to make 
billions.
Companies like Top Layer Networks, Inc. of Westboro, Massachusetts, are 
developing ways for FBI to install surveillance systems at a few key 
Internet hubs which would allow federal agents to remotely flip a switch 
and pound a few keys to begin monitoring the e-mail or web-based mail of 
any targeted group or individual. According to chief Top Layer engineer Ken 
Georgiades, the firm is working with a number of partners to develop new 
standards for the legal interception of communications at the Internet 
Service Provider level and at higher gigabit speeds.
The higher gigabit intercept equipment would be placed at major Internet 
backbone hubs in strategic locations like Washington, DC, the San Francisco 
Bay Area, Chicago, Dallas, and Los Angeles. Georgiades said that the1994 
Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) does not currently 
extend to the Internet and only applies to telecommunications companies. 
However, the fact that Top Layer and its unspecified partners are ramping 
up to deliver CALEA-like wiretapping services for the Internet indicates 
the FBI sees the power of CALEA growing beyond phone lines to the web. And 
Georgiades pointed out that foreign governments are under no such 
constraints and can use Internet snooping equipment under existing current 
wiretapping laws.
David Banisar, Research Fellow at Harvard's Information Infrastructure 
Project, said such systems "set a dangerous precedent to allow law 
enforcement and intelligence agencies to run the communications system." He 
added, "these agencies take an over-inclusive view of who they think are 
the enemies and its likely that civil and human rights groups will, again, 
be monitored for no legitimate reason."
The large defense and intelligence consulting and engineering firm Booz, 
Allen & Hamilton has not only developed the FBI's Carnivore capability but 
it has assisted the bureau in ensuring that all telecommunications 
companies engineer their systems to ensure they are "wiretap friendly." The 
companies are required by the Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement 
Act to ensure the FBI has access to all forms of telecommunications, 
including cellular calls.
What if a target decides to use encryption to protect their e-mail from 
interception? That is not a problem for the FBI. Booz Allen & Hamilton has 
helped develop a system code-named Magic Lantern, which permits a virus 
containing a key logging program to be secretly transmitted to a recipient. 
After installing itself on the target's computer, any time the target types 
in a password to decrypt a message, that same password is immediately 
picked up by Magic Lantern and transmitted to the FBI. Essentially, the FBI 
has a virtual master key to break any encryption program used by a 
surveillance target.
A companion program to Magic Lantern, code named Cyber Knight, is a 
relational database system that compares and matches information from 
e-mail, Internet relay chats, instant messages, and Internet voice 
communications.
Not to be outdone by the FBI, the CIA has also been extremely active in 
developing software than can dig deep within the Internet to harvest 
information. The CIA has relied heavily on its wholly-owned and operated 
proprietary Silicon Valley company, IN-Q-TEL, to fund research and 
development for Internet snooping software. IN-Q-TEL's President and Chief 
Executive Officer Gilman Louie is to keynote a January 2002 Las Vegas 
seminar on the use of emerging intelligence technology to search and 
analyze the web. He is to be joined by Joan Dempsey, the Deputy Director of 
the CIA for Intelligence Community Management. IN-Q-TEL's web page 
describes the aggressive attitude the CIA is taking toward ensuring new 
technologies come complete with the spy agency's seal of approval, 
"IN-Q-TEL strives to extend the Agency's access to new IT companies, 
solutions, and approaches to address their priority problems."
Assisting the government in its goals to gather massive amounts of personal 
information on citizens and non-citizens, is a company that owes its very 
existence to the CIA. Oracle, Inc. Chairman Larry Ellison has offered to 
provide to the government free of charge the database software required to 
establish an interactive national ID card system. Oracle got its start when 
the CIA gave Ellison a contract in the 1970s to design a system to enable 
the agency to store and retrieve massive amounts if information in 
databases. Not coincidentally, the code name of that CIA project was "Oracle."
The rush by the government to monitor the Internet has the backing of a 
group of federal contract research facilities that have pounded out report 
after report warning about the threat of cyberspace to national security. 
These "think tanks" include Rand Corporation and Analytical Services 
Corporation (ANSER). They are assisted in this policy laundering effort by 
the Center for Strategic and International Studies, the K Street rest home 
for former Pentagon, intelligence, and State Department political appointees.
But all the technology in the world will not protect citizens from 
terrorist attacks, unless the government knows how to use the information 
effectively. As the government and a few selected companies and think tanks 
push for new surveillance laws and more monitoring of the Internet and 
telecommunications in general, the words of Mary Schiavo, the 
Transportation Department's former Inspector General and outspoken critic 
of lax airline security, are particularly poignant. Speaking in Washington 
on December 18, Schiavo pointed out that the "United States already had 
laws to prevent what happened on September 11th . . . they weren't being 
enforced."

Wayne Madsen is a Washington-based journalist who covers intelligence, 
national security, and foreign affairs. He is also a Senior Fellow of the 
Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) in Washington, DC and author 
of "Genocide and Covert Operations in Africa 1993-1999" (Mellen Press).Kill 
the President.
USAma struck in self defence,I propose all APsters do the same and select 
all federal employee's as legitimate targets.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 04:27:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:27:21 +1100
Subject: Havenco crackdown looming
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227232556.00a90c20@pop.useoz.com>


It lists specific risks:
7 A nuclear attack "which would have a devastating effect on the UK";
7 An attack on the London Underground using a small, unsophisticated, 
improvised explosive device;
7 A chemical or biological attack, for example, on the tube.
"Biological or chemical attacks although potentially less devastating would 
lead to widespread public alarm and potentially many fatalities," the 
document says.
A Home Office statement warns that because of its close alliance to 
America, Britain is vulnerable to a "nuclear attack, an attack on the 
London Underground of the type used in Paris in 1995... [or] a chemical or 
biological attack, for example on the underground".
There is also the risk of a September 11-style attack involving hijacked 
airliners. Raised security standards have made such an attack more 
difficult, the document says, but "protection depends on their uniform 
application internationally".
The 20-page document, placed before the court on behalf of the home 
secretary, David Blunkett, refers to intelligence warnings of further 
attacks and expresses the fear that if Osama bin Laden were killed, "the UK 
alongside the US will be a target for vengeance".
It said the fact that Britain was a close ally of the US and that British 
troops were involved in the military action in Afghanistan and in seeking 
out Bin Laden made Britain potentially more vulnerable: "Whether he is 
killed or not Bin Laden's allies need urgently to re-establish their 
capability and intent in order to make up the ground they have lost since 
September 11: they will seek to do this through terrorist attacks.
Al-Qaida supporters in Britain had played a role in four terrorist attacks 
foiled by police, the document disclosed.
But it warns that efforts to deal with terrorists in Britain beyond these 
arrests had been "ineffective". "There remain in the UK a number of foreign 
nationals who are suspected of being concerned in the commission, 
preparation or instigation of acts of international terrorism." Security 
measures had been ineffective because the suspects arrested were released 
when the crown offered no evidence, or the suspects had chosen to leave 
Britain but continued to pose a threat, or because under human rights law 
they they could not be deported to countries where they might be ill-treated.
The document says that the four terrorist attacks foiled by police and 
intelligence work were to have been carried out by "overlapping networks 
closely linked to al-Qaida".
7 In December 1999 a group of individuals in Jordan planned to attack a 
series of targets there frequented by American and Israeli tourists.
7 In the same month, Ahmed Ressam was stopped on the border between Canada 
and the US with a large quantity of explosive. He intended to attack Los 
Angeles airport.
7 In December 2000 a group in Frankfurt was arrested in possession of arms, 
chemicals and homemade explosive.
7 In September 2001 individuals in a number of European countries, 
including Britain, were arrested as they were preparing an attack against 
US interests in Paris.
The document notes: "Activity in the UK formed essential building blocks 
for each of these frustrated attacks."
ALSO
Subject: Woolf and Mahathir
Jail for sex offenders before crime
ONDON: Britain's top judge said on Wednesday that some sex offenders who 
pose a threat to public safety might have to be incarcerated, even if they 
have not committed a crime.
Civil liberties groups condemned the suggestion, and the government said it 
was not considering such a plan.
"It may well be, and this is a matter of very great sensitivity, that we 
have got to think, for those who are persistent offenders, of having some 
form of protective custody," Lord Woolf, the Lord Chief Justice, told 
British Broadcasting Corp radio.
"There may be a form of civil detention without having to prove a person 
has committed an actual crime," he added,
"If they have committed the crime ... in some cases, in all cases, that's 
too late."
Britain has been shocked by murder of 8-year-old Sarah Payne, who was 
abducted and murdered as she played in a field near her grandparents' home 
in July 2000. Roy Whiting, convicted December 12 of murdering her, had a 
previous conviction for the kidnap and indecent assault of a 9-year-old girl.
Whiting served just over half his four-year sentence for that crime, and 
refused a prison program designed to rehabilitate sex offenders.
Woolf conceded that protective custody would be a huge infringement on the 
individual's rights.




From cripto at ecn.org  Thu Dec 27 14:34:16 2001
From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:34:16 +0100
Subject: Explosive smuggling
Message-ID: <7b19d66ebbb7a8115da71ed9e57d8556@ecn.org>


>> A good plastic (haha) surgeon might be able to implant 10lbs or more,
easily enough to bring down a plane.  Breast implants would be the
obvious place to put it, because they certainly can't open up every
woman who wants to get on a plane with "augmentation" so what can you
do? <<

10 lbs can do a *lot* more than take
down a plane, which is very easy when
its in flight at high altitude.

It takes a few weeks to heal from
abdomen surgery that could be done
in a field hospital.  How to sleep
without rolling over on the lump
which is the activator is the tough
part.

Breasts are amusing locations, but 
Al Q doesn't use chicks (yet) and
its not easy to get them to look right.
(Admittedly, get an ugly chick and
not many will check for symmetry etc.)

PETN Flavored Gatorade: Is it in you?




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 04:38:00 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:38:00 +1100
Subject: Salvador lynneCheney
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011227232857.00a93e60@pop.useoz.com>


Scientists Uncover Bones Buried Under El Salvador's Police Headquarters
The Associated Press
Published: Dec 27, 2001
SAN SALVADOR, El Salvador (AP) - Scientists digging beneath the police 
department's national headquarters Wednesday discovered bones that human 
rights activists said belonged to people killed by state authorities during 
this country's 12-year civil war.
Skulls and dozens of other bones believed to be human were unearthed in two 
secret graves buried 6 feet below San Salvador's police plaza by a team of 
excavators hired by this country's independent Human Rights Commission.
The headquarters once housed the military-dominated national police force, 
which played a key role in the state's battle against leftist guerrillas 
during a war that killed 75,000 Salvadorans.
As part of the 1992 peace accords that ended the fighting, the existing 
police force was disbanded and replaced by the autonomous National Civil 
Police, which now occupies the headquarters.
"We have to determine, first of all, if these bones are human, then 
determine how long they have been here," said police spokesman Howard Coto.
But Human Rights Commission director Miguel Montenegro said he had no doubt 
that testing would confirm that the remains were human.
The graves prove that Salvadoran authorities tortured and killed dozens of 
"political prisoners" who were hauled into custody for interrogation at the 
height of the civil war and haven't been heard from since, Montenegro said.
"We have on record a series of cases where, in these headquarters, many 
people were tortured and disappeared," he said.
According to Montenegro's commission, at least 2,700 Salvadorans vanished 
after being arrested during the civil war.
SOA terrorists involved?
Im reading a book called "Instant of Treason"about the Sorge spy ring.The 
Tokyo police station seems to have seen a few murders.Treason trials in 
Malaysia and Russia bring back memories of writing as Dr Rat for a small 
samizdat called Treason,20 odd years back.I sold one to Laurie Oakes once! 
I digress.
Cheney and His Wife Make Over Vice Presidential Residence in Western Style
By Scott Lindlaw Associated Press Writer
Published: Dec 27, 2001
WASHINGTON (AP) - He doesn't spend much time there, but Dick Cheney has one 
of the finest homes in Washington - a newly renovated 33-room mansion with 
an indoor gym, seven fireplaces and art borrowed from some of the nation's 
most prestigious collections.
The government-owned residence "doesn't have an institutional feel about 
it," said Lynne Cheney, the vice president's wife. "It's still very warm. 
At the same time I think it has a lot of dignity."
Mrs. Cheney led a pair of Associated Press reporters on a recent tour.
Sitting on grassy hillside inside a 12-acre compound, the vice president's 
mansion is a good fit for the Cheneys' western lifestyle. "When you grow up 
in the wide-open spaces you just don't like to feel crowded," said Mrs. 
Cheney, like her husband a Wyoming native. "You just kind of like the feel 
of your space."
The white brick Victorian, on the grounds of the U.S. Naval Observatory, 
was updated with a $363,000 renovation this year. The work included all new 
hardwood floors in most of the house, remodeling the seven fireplaces, new 
paint or wallpaper in every room, electrical updating and new carpeting.
The vice president spends many nights away from home.East coast arsonists 
please note.Kill the president.proffr1.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 05:52:18 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:52:18 +1100
Subject: Freedoms just another word for Tim the loser.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228004319.00a51170@pop.useoz.com>


 >>for the sake of > argument lets call it "timmayism" is really in favor 
of individual > freedom (Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I 
believe > you to be, given your writtings, please correct me)

 >> Yeah, I favor freedom and free markets. Obviously. <<

The wizard of crypto-anarchy must have thought no real anarchists would 
ever turn up and Toto would pull away his screen.The first 3 entries for 
freedom with Google...
The Freedom Forum, based in Arlington, Va., is a nonpartisan foundation 
dedicated to free press, free speech and free spirit for all people. The 
foundation focuses on three main priorities: the Newseum, First Amendment 
issues and newsroom diversity.
The Freedom Forum funds two independent affiliates  the Newseum, the 
interactive museum of news in Arlington; and the First Amendment Center, 
with offices at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenn., and in Arlington.
The Freedom Forum was established in 1991 under the direction of Founder 
Allen H. Neuharth as successor to a foundation started in 1935 by newspaper 
publisher Frank E. Gannett. The Freedom Forum is not affiliated with 
Gannett Co., does not solicit or accept financial contributions, and does 
not accept unsolicited funding requests. Its work is supported by income 
from an endowment of diversified assets.
Jim Lehrer receives Al Neuharth journalism award.(cool,we get his show here 
and the civil war series screened this year.
Groundbreaking also launches renovation of University of South Dakota 
telecommunications building.  10.12.01
Browse recent news
Page last updated: 12/26/2001 7:00:37 PM
  http://www.freedomforum.org/about/
No.2
http://www.eff.org/
Freedom House is a clear voice for democracy and freedom around the world. 
Founded nearly sixty years ago by Eleanor Roosevelt, Wendell Willkie, and 
other Americans concerned with the mounting threats to peace and democracy, 
Freedom House has been a vigorous proponent of democratic values and a 
steadfast opponent of dictatorships of the far left and the far right.
Non-partisan and broad-based, Freedom ...etc
No.3
http://www.freedom.net/All you need to protect yourself online!
Freedom Security & Privacy Suite is the most complete and comprehensive 
suite of tools to secure your PC and protect your privacy on the Internet. 
Featuring Freedom Personal Firewall and Parental Control, it also blocks 
ads, safeguards your personal information, encrypts your passwords, and 
much more...

I wonder if the wiz has ever heard of long running anarchist paper "Freedom"?




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 06:01:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:01:10 +1100
Subject: Marketing crypto-anarchy with Tim May BS.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228005238.00a52620@pop.useoz.com>


 >> Yeah, I favor freedom and free markets. Obviously. <<

Google free markets...

FreeMarkets is the leading global provider of e-sourcing software
and service solutions. By helping companies dramatically
improve their sourcing process and win new business, we are
changing the way business is done around the world.
http://www.freemarkets.com/
No.2.
http://www.saturdaymarket.com/chinaveg/
China's Vegetable Markets: From Farmer to Consumer
China's Free Markets (Farmers' Markets). (A Photo
Tour). by. Ditty Deamer. ) 1998 D. Deamer. ...
www.saturdaymarket.com/chinaveg/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages
No.3
Chomsky: The Passion for Free Markets
 From the pages of Z Magazine. The Passion for Free Markets. Exporting
American values through the new World Trade Organization. ...
Description: Noam Chomsky introduces the WTO, and the drive to export
American values through it.
Category: Society > Issues > Economic > International > Trade > World Trade
Organization
www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/may97chomsky.html - 64k - Cached - Similar pages

Dont go there girlfriend! Shit! They must change every fucking day or
something!Where the fucks Timmie's hard boiled but non libertarian party
free market and freedom philosophy? Up his ass?




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 06:25:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:25:57 +1100
Subject: ..."cypherpunky cryptobabble libertopians should take note"...
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228011221.00a630d0@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: ..."cypherpunky cryptobabble libertopians should take note"...
 From Mid August.
The subject line above was immediately taken as an insult by Tim and Declan!

They mustn't get out much
,Ive called them much worse yet they've managed to both adroitly put a 
little space between themselves and "libertarianism".Not enough to save 
them but enough to demonstrate clearly their cowardice and fear of 
debate.Maybe it was the 'cryptobabble' appellation that dogged their cats.
Seth on declan,later,
 >>"Everybody goes by what he posts, the politically correct (for here)
liberpunk anarcrypt cyberbilge. Not what he *does*. It's utterly unreal." <<
It sure is mate and Ill not stop reminding him.
Declan's a phony cypherpunk,,journalist and especially "libertarian."Just 
another bottom feeding hack with artistic pretensions.The company he keeps 
stink to high hell.
Seth on May;
 >>you *do*
have "lots of guns and money". Why aren't you also giving him a pass for
restating what are presumably your own true statements? As far as being
"a dangerous person", well, that depends who one thinks is your target. <<

This got seth blacklisted in silicon valley by crypto-fascist 
May.Tailgunner,roy Cohn,May.He does shoot himself in the foot a lot.I hope 
Tims as big on Hemingway as he is on guns.He may even trip reaching for the 
trash basket and ram his head into a sharp corner of hardwood/plastic 
furniture.Tims last lost highway.Lately his targets have been jews(an 
oldie)black blocers,everyone in DC,gays,wimmin,nigaz,the usual Nazi 
suspects.Lets face it,the guys a fascist creep.Godwins or not he comes here 
spouting bill white,Pravda (!) corespondent.The two have a lot in 
common.Anyone with an interest in the lunar right can run some name 
searches on bill.He used to call himself an anarchist as well.
Tims smart enough to sense the real oceans of anarchism he's all at sea 
with,I wonder if he see's the blood in his waters? The red-brown chum he 
and his fist mate billy are ladleling? Keep it up Timmy.You'll get what's 
coming to you.




From happyfree20 at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 28 01:43:26 2001
From: happyfree20 at hotmail.com (happyfree20 at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:43:26
Subject: ADV/ NEVER WORRY ABOUT MONEY AGAIN!!! PLEASE READ.
Message-ID: <297.720426.238355@hotmail.com>






>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: vintagewatch.org at bzam.com
>>>Reply-To: 
>>>To: catfish_co <>
>>>Subject: NEVER WORRY ABOUT MONEY AGAIN......
>>>
>>>Content-Type: text/html; Charset=us-ascii
>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>==================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>==================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>=== When you place your order, make sure you order each of
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>2.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT #5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT #4.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TOREPORT #3.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TOREPORT #2
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>**** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of
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>>>
>>>==================================================
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1.
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>ordered Report # 2.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of
>>>
>>>500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders
>>>
>>>for Report #3.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of
>>>
>>>5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is
>>>
>>>10,000 orders for Report #4.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total
>>>
>>>of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails.  The 0.2% response to
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting.
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>__________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>REPORT #2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the
>>>
>>>Net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Order Report #2 from:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    D.J. Webb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    1673 Richmond St. Suite #358
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    London, Ontario, Canada NG6 2N3
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>REPORT #3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the Net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Order Report #3 from:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      H. Rowland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      43 New Dominion Way Front
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      Royal, Va 22630 U.S.A.
>>>
>>>_________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>REPORT #4: How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the
>>>
>>>Net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Order Report #4 from:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     J. Drees
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     1288 Broad Street
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Bloomfield, NJ 07003 U.S.A.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>REPORT #5: How to send out 0ne Million emails for free
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Order Report #5 From:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Vanilla
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     727 Corona Ct.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Paso Robles, Ca. 93446 U.S.A.
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>=== If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1
>>>
>>>within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. ===
>>>
>>>After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that
>>>
>>>you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2.  If you
>>>
>>>did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you
>>>
>>>do.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>=== Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2,
>>>
>>>YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
>>>
>>>you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS
>>>
>>>IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on
>>>
>>>the list, you are placed in front of a Different report.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report
>>>
>>>people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE
>>>
>>>INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE
>>>
>>>PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can
>>>
>>>generate from this business!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You
>>>
>>>have just received information that can give you financial
>>>
>>>freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A
>>>
>>>LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next
>>>
>>>few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the
>>>
>>>program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way.
>>>
>>>It works exceedingly well as it is now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you
>>>
>>>have put your name and address in Report#1 and moved others
>>>
>>>to #2 thru #5 as instructed above. One of the people you
>>>
>>>send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your
>>>
>>>name will be on every one of them.  Remember though, the
>>>
>>>more YOU send out the more potential customers you will
>>>
>>>reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas,
>>>
>>>information, materials and opportunity to become financially
>>>
>>>independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>=================== MORE TESTIMONIALS=============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I
>>>
>>>am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make
>>>
>>>pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled
>>>
>>>to Jody about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of the whole
>>>
>>>thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
>>>
>>>percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody
>>>
>>>totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later
>>>
>>>she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her,
>>>
>>>and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the
>>>
>>>thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks
>>>
>>>she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she
>>>
>>>had received total $ 147,200.00....all cash! I was shocked.
>>>
>>>I have joined Jody in her "hobby".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
>>>
>>>make up my mind to participate in this plan. But
>>>
>>>conservative that I am, I decided that the initial
>>>
>>>investment was so little that there was just no way that I
>>>
>>>wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back".
>>>
>>>"I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box
>>>
>>>crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12
>>>
>>>weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not
>>>
>>>matter where people live. There simply isn't a better
>>>
>>>investment with a faster return and so big".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Dan  Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later
>>>
>>>I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had
>>>
>>>no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait
>>>
>>>until I was e-mailed again by someone else......11 months
>>>
>>>passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete
>>>
>>>this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all
>>>
>>>the money came within 22 weeks".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
>>>
>>>money with little cost to you. I followed the simple
>>>
>>>instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started
>>>
>>>to come in. My first month I made  $20, 560.00 and by the
>>>
>>>end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life
>>>
>>>is beautiful, Thanx to internet".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO
>>>
>>>FINANCIAL FREEDOM!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>If you have any questions of the legality of this program,
>>>
>>>contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing
>>>
>>>Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer
>>>
>>>Protection, Washington,D.C.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>===================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>THIS IS A ONE-TIME MAILING, THEREFORE NO REQUEST FOR REMOVAL
>>>
>>>IS REQUIRED.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>





From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Dec 27 17:45:10 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 28 Dec 2001 01:45:10 -0000
Subject: Explosive smuggling
In-Reply-To: <5C3B3E70-FB2C-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net> (message
  from Tim May on Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:46:42 -0800)
References: <5C3B3E70-FB2C-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011228014510.564.qmail@sidereal.kz>


> As for sniffers finding these things...the signals are already being
> lost in the noise. Dogs can find certain kinds of explosives, but
> are fooled by others. And the vapor emissions can be very, very low.
> (Nothing is ever "zero" on a log scale, of course, but something
> sealed inside a glass ampoule and very thoroughly rinsed with water
> and alcohol and benzene and such is about as close to "no emissions"
> as one can imagine.)

Sniffers are one way to detect things, but as you point out, it is
possible to get emissions so low that they cannot be detected.
However, the new methods are based on other exotic things like neutron
scanning and mass spec, which can detect chemical composition, right?
Also things like CAT scan X-rays and maybe even ultrasound can detect
different material types; ie, bone and flesh look different, so
perhaps C4 has a different X-ray opacity than other things?  With
things like neutron scanning, it should be possible to detect stuff
anywhere in the body, perhaps?  That's why boobs are the perfect place
for this.  A big homogenous-opacity shape in a body cavity or the
abdomen is suspicious, but boob implants are "normal".

I know little or nothing about these things.  Maybe someone can give
us a summary of the different super-scanning technologies?  Even
without knowing anything about them, I do know that they will all be
expensive, and, even if they are safe, they will have to overcome
public perceptions about radiation.  And brand-new technologies like
this are usually only partially effective.

Interesting stuff.  At the beginning of the 20th Century, four
countries had the opportunity to become empires: The US, the Russians,
the Germans and the Japanese.  After much bloodshed, the US won (I'm
glad about that, especially when you look at the alternatives).  Now
the US is having to put up with some of the unpleasant aspects of
being an empire, and that's why we're even discussing neutron scanning
to detect explosive boobs (aka "booby traps").




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 07:30:37 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 02:30:37 +1100
Subject: APster lead poisoning; law west of the Pecos.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228014415.00a689b0@pop.useoz.com>


APster as justice by consensus and libertarian Laura Norda.(DF stands for 
dangerous fiend and david Friedman)

 >>DF also gives the example of Saga period Iceland (going back 1000 years 
or more) as a model for government and law enforcement today. This is 
ludicrous. There are more recent (and close to home) examples of societies 
in the history of the American West that had no government expenditure on 
law enforcement, with high levels of rights and property rights protection. 
However, the vigilante justice of the period did not follow due process and 
was extremely harsh (immediate death upon apprehension for alleged theft). 
Few people would trade our expensive modern criminal justice system for the 
fiscally cheap vigilante justice systems of the pre-government American west<<
 From http://world.std.com/~mhuben/andreas.html
Unless they have no choice? The pieces are falling into place.The price of 
liberty is eternal vigilantism.

 >>Ironically, DF says he would accept (as a compromise) a tax on 
unproduced resources like land. Until now he has been arguing that taxation 
equals theft and that the government does not have the right to tax. Now he 
is willing to accept billions of dollars of property tax. What happened to 
the righteous indignation against government and taxation? If DF really 
believes taxation is the moral equivalent of violent theft via men with 
guns, then no amount would be OK. How is it possible for a libertarian to 
morally justify accepting this theft but not others? <<
Declan was on here recently bleating about this,maybe he,or davy's 
mate,Timmy can help us out here?They have exhibited the morality of a 
shithouse rat so far.

 >>It is also ironic that DF chooses to live in a city and a state with 
relatively high property tax, sales tax, income tax and extensive local 
government services and regulations. If he were really convinced that 
taxation is the moral equivalent of violent theft via men with guns, then 
why doesn't he take some very simple precautionary steps to avoid it and 
move to a city and state with less taxes and regulation? <<
Movin' to Montana soon? Tammy lives in Cali too,shurley some mishtake! 
(Anarchy week in SF is huge.Real Anarchy.)

 >>mhuben,fucking stateist.>>Communism under Stalin was inefficient for 
most of the USSR, but it worked fabulously for Stalin, so it was already 
pareto efficient. To recommend that they should have adopted 
Libertarianism, you need more than economics. You need a moral philosophy 
that justifies redistributing property and rights from Stalin to the people 
of the USSR. <<
Umm,thats easy,anarchism.If huben says a representative democratic 
state,Ill APster the SOB.ASAP.Tim and davy friedfish's silence is 
deafening.(unless you count timmies quoting Pravda:The tim may-bill white 
pact.)

 >>. Libertarians have a hard time defining "initiation of force" which 
they consider unjust, and separating it from justified force. I personally 
think a superior moral philosophy would attempt to minimize total force 
over the long term rather than try to determine who initiated force and put 
the total blame on them. Does anyone really care who *initiated* WW1? This 
libertarian preoccupation with the initiation of force is similar to the 
moral philosophy of fighting children who always yell, "He started it" at 
the other kid. <<
I hope this helps one answer to my "hilary health" post.APster should 
minimize total force quite nicely.We should all be out there selling it 
like soupy sales.(psst kids,take some money from moms purse or dads wallet 
and send it to...)




From cripto at ecn.org  Thu Dec 27 17:45:18 2001
From: cripto at ecn.org (Anonymous)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 02:45:18 +0100
Subject: Fear and Trembling
Message-ID: 


>Beheading the centers of information warfare would be the end 
>of Western culture.

I had to read the whole thing to find the actual prediction.

So you assume a simultaneous or at least closely-spaced annihilation of CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, BBC buildings ? With moles that have been planted there years ago, with penile implants, I assume. And then targeted execution of remaining key employees to the point where appearing on TV becomes really, really unattractive proposition ?

Maybe.

What would american sheeple do in the morning without TV ?

I mean, you wake up, turn on the tube and there is just a station logo there, because even the weatherman was found shot in the back of his head. What do you do next ? There is NO TV in he evening. You must stare at your ugly family or even talk with morons.

US would disintegrate within 48 hours.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 08:27:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 03:27:48 +1100
Subject: Tim May,you do a disservice to crypto and our group,go die.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228030009.00a513d0@pop.useoz.com>


 >You do a disservice to crypto and our group by implying, even in a
backhanded way, that Bell's "AP" system was or is in any way feasible.
Where's the true untraceable cash needed?
Please explain.
--Tim May

 >In 1995 the U.S. Secret Service reported less than one percent of seized 
counterfeit bills were created using a home computer. Last year, 47 percent 
of seized bills were produced with a computer and printer. and...Who needs 
untraceable anonymity when throwaway pseudonymous accounts
should suffice? and...untraceable digital cash is not
strictly needed.Merely enough trustworthy
netizens to promise to send their pledge to the 'predictor' who remains
anonymous.Do you take payment in kind? Strangers on a train? The hawala 
system for APster.
Security for pledgers who default? The remailers will be bigger than SETI 
but Howie and Chaum light the way.

 >>A few ideas to get the ball rolling:
Active privacy protection:
Collect the information a zealous G-man or Gestapo craves - (AP police? pr.)
fingerprints, DNA, dossier, phone logs, etc., but encrypt
and
un traceably divide it through remailers in locations chosen
randomly by input from me and those collecting it. As long
as I keep regularly anonymously authenticating myself, the
pieces can neither be located to destroy or compromise them,
or reunited. If my transmissions stop for some period, say
because I blew myself up in a suicide attack, the different
providers send their pieces to the authorities and the game
is up. I can assign a digital Power of Attorney or
inheritance for others to maintain my privacy when I can't,
but, if a grand jury investigating the plane I hijacked
publicly and legally indicts or subpoenas me (or the alias
under which I bought my plane ticket), they can broadcast a
code that retrieves some or all the data. However their
actual locations are unknown: if I set it up that way,
after some interval they also send it to my lawyer, a
selection of newspapers, etc.
Un-audit able taps:
Record full taps of all telephone and email conversations.
Encrypt with multiple keys and/or divide the bits and store
with redundancy and active privacy protection in multiple
locations through remailers, as before. The conversation
may only continue while the recording is anonymously proven
to be occurring. During the statutory storage period, the
providers anonymously check one another, and regenerate in a
new randomly chosen location if one provider disappears. On
the statutory expiration date, all the pieces do.
Watchdog timer:
Like the processor in a control system, the computers of a
jet require regular interaction with their assigned,
authenticated, and conscious pilot. Otherwise they announce
his incapacity to the world, and hand themselves over to
remote control from an authenticated ground controller.
(Not necessarily blinded, but included because topical.)
Also, I have a few more related older ideas on my website
below.
Good luck!
Howie Goodell
-- 
Howie Goodell hgoodell at cs.uml.edu Pr SW Eng, WearLogic
Sc.D. Cand HCI Res Grp CS Dept U Massachussets Lowell
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/goodell/howie
Dying is soooo 20th-century! http://www.cryonics.org

Timmy hates this so theres probably something to it.Lets put tims head in 
with that other nazi,disney.

""I
do not promise to streamline government or make it more efficient; for I
mean to reduce its size." (Barry Goldwater) Take that to its ultimate
practical extreme; that's what I'm proposing. "Howie G. (and jimmy B?)




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 10:17:19 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 05:17:19 +1100
Subject: Swindlers List.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228050111.00a925f0@pop.useoz.com>


Time to fire up the ovens and
 > send them to the showers.)
 >
 > --Tim May

(weasl) Praise the lord, and pass the Zyklon-B!

Sieg HEIL! The cypherpunk chat room is open for business.Tim Mugabe May and 
JA Terrasonovabitch measl.Enjoy!

NEWPORT BEACH, Calif. (AP) - A college sophomore was charged Wednesday with 
the rape and torture of a 15-year-old girl who had swastikas carved into 
her face with a knife.
Police allege Brian Dance, 20, a University of California, Irvine student, 
met the girl in an Internet chat room and picked her up Dec. 20 at a mall.
Police said he took her to a parking lot, forced her into the back seat of 
his car, covered her eyes with duct tape and beat her for more than two 
hours with his hands and a belt.
The girl was sexually assaulted, robbed and had swastikas etched on her 
cheek and forehead with a knife, police said. She was treated and released 
from a hospital the next day.
A friend of the victim helped police nab Dance after contacting him through 
the chat room. She arranged to meet him at the same mall and he was 
arrested Sunday.
Dance could face 90 years to life if convicted of all the charges, which 
include rape by a foreign object, robbery and torture.
Dance's father, Larry Dance, said the family was stunned by the allegations.
Dance is to be arraigned Jan. 8 and has been denied bail

Guy sounds like a regular fun loving anarcho-capitalist to me.He's probably 
researching a book.Mein crypto Kampf.













pontificate to cops about whether
someone like me plans to do something. He chose to cooperate with the
Feds and speculated freely on what he thought I would do.
He's a rodent.




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From: cupid at adultfriendfinder.com (cupid at adultfriendfinder.com)
Date: 28 Dec 2001 08:12:10 -0000
Subject: Adult Friend Finder Cupid Report for oddodoodo
Message-ID: <20011228081210.10292.qmail@e74.friendfinder.com>


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From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Dec 28 09:45:02 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:45:02 -0800
Subject: Western Culture
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011228161112.13457.qmail@nym.alias.net>
  <3C2BFB85.4FD22896@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011228094502.00801510@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:48 AM 12/28/01 -0800, John Young wrote:
>of northern European hinterlands, Anglo-Saxon defectives
>still enthralled with ceremonial violence inherent in
>costume, sports, entertainment, prejudice, pride, and
>exculpation of ego-driven indifference to harm caused
>others 

Wait, are you talking about football (soccer) or religion?

I suppose for some there is litle difference..

:-) 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec 28 08:15:55 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:15:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Euro bank notes to embed RFID chips by 2005 (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 08:09:24 -0700
From: "R. A. Hettinga" 
To: Digital Bearer Settlement List ,
    cryptography at wasabisystems.com
Cc: Bob Antia , Jack Driscoll ,
    Thaer Sabri , Andrew Forbes ,
    Duncan Goldie-Scot ,
    "R. A. Hettinga" ,
    Alexander Jenkins ,
    Mark McCarren ,
    Fearghas McKay ,
    Kevin McLellan ,
    Kevin McLellan ,
    Vinnie Moscaritolo ,
    Graham Sterling , Mark Tenney ,
    Randolph Elliott ,
    Michael Frese , NicholasFC at aol.com,
    Colin Taggart , Matt Frese ,
    "Bradford C. Frese" 
Subject: Euro bank notes to embed RFID chips by 2005

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011219S0016

Euro bank notes to embed RFID chips by 2005

By Junko Yoshida
EE Times
(12/19/01, 3:03 p.m. EST)





  Set- top box SoC ready for high-speed demands
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  'Future proofing' set-top box design
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  MIPS, software make for smooth DVD decoding
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Meeting MPEG-4 advanced audio coding requirements
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Altering algorithms to create '3D' sound
------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAN MATEO, Calif. - The European Central Bank is working with technology
partners on a hush-hush project to embed radio frequency identification
tags into the very fibers of euro bank notes by 2005, EE Times has learned.
Intended to foil counterfeiters, the project is developing as Europe
prepares for a massive changeover to the euro, and would create an instant
mass market for RFID chips, which have long sought profitable application.

The banking community and chip suppliers say the integration of an RFID
antenna and chip on a bank note is technically possible, but no bank notes
in the world today employ such a technology. Critics say it's unclear if
the technology can be implemented at a cost that can justify the effort,
and question whether it is robust enough to survive the rough-and-tumble
life span of paper money.

A spokesman for the European Central Bank (ECB) in Frankfurt, Germany
confirmed the existence of a project, but was careful not to comment on its
technologies. At least two European semiconductor makers contacted by EE
Times, Philips Semiconductors and Infineon Technologies, acknowledged their
awareness of the ECB project but said they are under strict nondisclosure
agreements.

The euro will become "the most common currency in the world" at midnight on
Jan. 1, when 12 nations embrace it, according to Ingo Susemihl, vice
president and general manager of RFID group at Infineon. The ECB and
criminal investigators in Europe are already on high alert, worried not
only about counterfeiting of a currency most people haven't seen, but also
of a possible increase in money laundering, given the euro's broad
cross-border reach.

The ECB said 14.5 billion bank notes are being produced, 10 billion of
which will go into circulation at once in January, with 4.5 billion being
held in reserve to accommodate potential leaps in demand.

Thwarting underworld popularity

Although euro bank notes already include such security features as
holograms, foil stripes, special threads, microprinting, special inks and
watermarks, the ECB believes it must add further protection to keep the
euro from becoming the currency of choice in the criminal underworld, where
the U.S. dollar is now the world's most counterfeited currency. The ECB
spokesman said his organization has contacted various central banks
worldwide - not just in Europe - to discuss added security measures for the
currency.

In theory, an RFID tag's ability to read and write information to a bank
note could make it very difficult, for example, for kidnappers to ask for
"unmarked" bills. Further, a tag would give governments and law enforcement
agencies a means to literally "follow the money" in illegal transactions.

"The RFID allows money to carry its own history," by recording information
about where it has been, said Paul Saffo, director of Institute for the
Future (Menlo Park, Calif.).

The embedding of an RFID tag on a bank note is "a fundamental departure"
from the conventional security measures applied to currency, Saffo said.
"Most [currency] security today is based on a false premise that people
would look at the money to see if it is counterfeit," he said. But "nobody
does that. The RFID chip is an important advance because it no longer
depends on humans" to spot funny money.

RFID basics

The basic technology building blocks for RFID on bank notes are similar to
those required for today's smart labels or contactless cards. They require
a contactless data link that can automatically collect information about a
product, place, time or transaction. Smart labels produced by companies
such as Philips Semiconductors, Infineon, STMicroelectronics and Texas
Instruments are already used in such applications as smart airline luggage
tags, library books and for supply chain management of various products.

"Two minimum elements you need for RFID are a chip and an antenna,"
according to Gordon Kenneth Andrew Oswald, associate director at Arthur D.
Little Inc., a technology consulting firm based in Cambridge, Mass. When a
bank note passes through reader equipment, the antenna on the note collects
energy and converts it to electric energy to activates the chip, he said.

The antenna then "provides a communication path between a chip [on the bank
note] and the rest of the world," said Tres Wiley, emerging markets
strategy manager for RFID Systems at TI. For its part, the chip "is a
dedicated processor to handle protocols, to carry out data encoding to send
and receive data and address memory" embedded on the chip.

Although the industry is "well down the road with the smart label
technology," Wiley said he was "a bit surprised to learn that someone goes
to that extent - to embed RFID into bank notes - to combat counterfeit
money."

A number of challenges must be overcome before RFID tags can be embedded on
bills, said Kevin Ashton, executive director of the Auto ID Center at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "The most obvious one is the price,"
he said. Today's RFID tags cost between 20 cents to $1.00, and "that's not
economic enough for most bills," Ashton said. "We've absolutely got to get
the cost way down." The goal of the Auto ID Center is to find an
application that requires billions of RFID chips to bring their cost as low
as 5 cents, he added.

While most chip companies with RFID expertise are keeping their plans for
money applications close to their chest, Hitachi Ltd. announced plans last
July for a chip designed for paper money that would pack RF circuitry and
ROM in a 0.4-mm square circuit measuring 60 microns thick. Although the
chip features no rewritable capability, Ryo Imura, chief executive of
Hitachi's Mew Solutions venture, said at the time of announcement, "We'll
consider them for the next generation [of] products." Hitachi's chip stores
encrypted ID information in ROM during the manufacturing process,
presumably to replace the serial number of each bank note.

Even without writable memory, Hitachi's chip is said to be fairly costly.
Hitachi declined to be interviewed for this article.

While the size of the rewritable memory embedded on an RFID chip will
determine the kinds of information it can store, it also affects the chip's
cost.

Affordable with bigger bills

It is unclear whether the ECB will incorporate RFID chips into all euro
bank notes or just on the larger bills. The EUR 200 and EUR 500 bank notes
in particular - equivalent to roughly $200 and $500 in value - are expected
to be popular in the "informal" economy. Embedding a 30 cents chip into a
EUR 500 bill would make more sense than putting it into a European buck,
several industry sources said.

Manufacturing processes are also considered a major hurdle to embedding a
low-cost antenna and chip onto bank notes. "The chip is already so small,"
MIT's Ashton said. "To connect the two ends of a coil - an antenna - at
precisely the right place on a chip could present a major problem."

A printing process is an option, Ashton said, but "you need a breakthrough
in the high-volume manufacturing process." Such a technology does not exist
today, he said.

Size and thickness are key attributes of an RFID chip for paper currency,
said Karsten Ottenberg, senior vice president and general manager of
business unit identification at Philips Semiconductors. "For putting chips
into documents, they need to be very small - less than a square millimeter
- and thin such that they are not cracking under mechanical stress of the
document. Thinning down to 50 micron and below is a key challenge." That
would require advanced mechanical and chemical techniques, he said.

Bank notes present "an interesting future application for us," said Tom
Pounds, vice president of RFID projects at Alien Technology, which holds
the rights to a fabrication process that suspends tiny semiconductor
devices in a liquid that's deposited over a substrate containing holes of
corresponding shape. The devices settle on the substrate and self-align.
Rather than working on the interconnection to an RF antenna one chip at a
time, "we can do a massively parallel interconnection," Pounds said. Bank
notes are not Alien's primary focus at present, he said.
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'



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From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Dec 28 08:33:44 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:33:44 -0600
Subject: Untitled Document - Reid used web to buy explosives
Message-ID: <3C2C9EE8.EBCC6E1B@ssz.com>


http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=485613&in_review_text_id=442387
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Dec 28 08:04:47 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:04:47 -0500 (est)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable ,   coward.RIP.,
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Greg Newby wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 10:17:30PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> > > The reality is that people get 'irritated' by the silliest things, two
> > > guys (or girls) kissing in public for example. Wanting to burn a flag or a
> > > bible. Going to a different church than they do...
> > 
> > Carrying explosives in your penis :-)
> 
> Even having a penis ;)
> 

Or being one? :)




From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Dec 28 08:17:53 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:17:53 -0500 (est)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable 
  coward.RIP.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Yeah, IMHO mattd is in the end stage of neurosyphilis, which he got from
Vulis.  I tried to make heads or tails out of it, but he beats otoT on the
weirdness level.  At least otoT had style...


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Something I _don't_ favor is wasting time responding to weird rants like 
> the ones from "mattd."




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 16:44:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:44:02 +1100
Subject: Report from DUNY on the CHAUM monopoly.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228111318.00a93eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>So, in 1990, he launched DigiCash b.v., a subsidiary of the US company 
DigiCash Inc., with his own capital and a contract from the Dutch 
government to build and test technology to support anonymous toll payments 
on highways. Chaum developed a prototype by which smart cards holding a 
certain amount of verified cash value could be slipped into a gadget 
affixed to the windshield, and high-speed scanning devices would subtract 
the tolls as the cars whizzed by. The cards could also be used to pay for 
public transportation and eventually other items. Of course, the payments 
would be anonymous. After completing that contract (the system has not yet 
been implemented), << Know then...

Transfield-Obayashi operates a system like this in Melbourne,au.Ratlines of 
diverted traffic instantly sprung up.Motorcycles go through the system of 
segmented superhighways and tunnels free,as no way could be found to attach 
the 'gadget'.No cards are used though they are in the train and tram 
system.Anarchists and old ladies have been blamed by the privatized mass 
transport companies for a steep decline in revenues since conductors were 
made redundant.Many ticket machines are inoperable for various.) 
reasons.Stillsuits are essential and planetary ecologist Keynes tells me 
that the last 9 out of 10 years were hottest on record.Over harvesting and 
Harkkkonen activity are adding to a dangerous build up of Co2 that 
threatens the very existence of the spice.The worms the Harkkkonen are 
attempting to breed are so far producing only the most distilled 
poison.Fremen on the planet are waging guerrilla war and are being 
vigorously suppressed by the rabid beast,Abbott,using scorched earth 
tactics.The Pareto Emperors call for complete genocide were almost totally 
successful in the deep south.
The fremen are said to have an undisclosed weapon and are being led by 
someone called muad Dip.More Sardauker legions may be required to eliminate 
these rebels who also seem to be drawing on house Anerres remnants.Also 
notify choate Prime that more hunter-seekers are needed.Keep this message 
encrypted from the Lensraad.OVER.




From jya at pipeline.com  Fri Dec 28 11:48:00 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:48:00 -0800
Subject: Western Culture
In-Reply-To: <20011228161112.13457.qmail@nym.alias.net>
References: <3C2BFB85.4FD22896@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 


The dominant religion of the West is Middle Eastern in
origin, its best features long overlayered with barbaric 
bureaucracy of the Greeks and Latins and vile practices 
derived from the warrior cultures, many the outgrowth 
of northern European hinterlands, Anglo-Saxon defectives
still enthralled with ceremonial violence inherent in
costume, sports, entertainment, prejudice, pride, and
exculpation of ego-driven indifference to harm caused
others -- others deliberately defined as unworthy of
equal treatment with those who considered themselves
inherently superior. Calvinism a cloak for screwing
with mammon's blessing.

The dominant political system is similarly derived and
corrupted by bandit mentality, warlords changing sides,
imitating each other, destroying dissenters of the main
behavior, bribing those they cannot beat, stigmatizing
and/or criminalizing those they cannot bribe.

The Western family culture is probably the most barbaric of
all for its promulgation of vicious sexual peculiarities, 
prohibitions, askanced violations, intra-familial deceits, 
institutionalized sanctimoniousness and manipulation
and slavery (oft through faux idolization) of children and 
women. The dominant male is homosexual beyond the
conventional definition of that term, preferring and
adoring other males, the more dominating the better,
though never recognizing the fundamental cowardice
of preening dominants -- all showboating, parading,
bluffing, fetishism of stand-off battling, never risking
harm, and love of literature and art that valorizes these
traits.

The economic system is a mish-mash of the other three,
opportunistic, unprincipled, venal, treacherous, exploitive
at home and overseas. Nothing intellectually original about
it, lacking subtlety, maximizing unearned profits, gloating
about winning by treachery, by taking advantage of others,
completely ga-ga about hanging out with like-minded dimwits.

What is most distinctive about Western culture is its willful
ignorance about where it came from, and what has been
lost by branding the mongrel culture with simplistic, jingoistic
terminology created for ignorant sellers of the product 
(gov, com, edu) and its consumers. Sure it appeals to the 
ignorant sellers and consumers worldwide but not as
much as believed by its homeland sources.




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Dec 28 02:50:07 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:50:07 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Explosive smuggling
Message-ID: 


At 04:46 PM 12/27/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Easy to imagine safer activators. A magnet arrangment, where an external 
>magnet pulls something. A dual activator system, where two switches must 
>be closed simultaneously, ampoules to be broken or pierced under the 
>skin, and so on.

Yeah but then you have to explain that you have an implant or
somesuch when you trigger the magnetometer.  

This 'dual activator system' ---the equivalent of a mechanical pin you must pull or push to arm the primary trigger--- is the solution to the mechanical
trigger problem.


>A person willing to martyr himself is almost assured of being able to 
>take down a plane. 

If all you want to do is drop it, a perfume bottle with some
volitile nerve agent will work ---do pilots have separate air? 

Amusingly, a plane flew over rural NorCal, pilotless, after it escaped
while being worked on.  Presumably it crashed somewhere in the hills.
No talk of F15s because the un-pilot called the FAA.

And, a small plane (piloted by arabic-surnamed but nonhostile people, because
Allah has a twisted sense of humor) crashed a mile from San Onofre 
---communities around which may be offered KI, its also reported.

Curiouser and curiouser.


-----
Imagine if Jim "butyric acid" Bell had been a mujahadeen...
dimethyl mercury, anyone? 




From g7459 at ok.ru  Fri Dec 28 09:45:22 2001
From: g7459 at ok.ru (g7459 at ok.ru)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:45:22 -0500
Subject: New 2002 Gov Grants Info Package...........                         14683
Message-ID: <00007adf59f2$00000459$0000395b@private.21cn.com>

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From piolenc at mozcom.com  Thu Dec 27 20:56:37 2001
From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:56:37 +0800
Subject: Western Culture
Message-ID: <3C2BFB85.4FD22896@mozcom.com>


"The Western conceit that its culture is so superior that it
must impose it on others through missionary campaigns
now many centuries old, through economic policies, through 
eduation, through foreign policies, through military enforcement,
and through disparagement of other cultures, has bred a
deep seated anger toward the prime exporters, the idea
supremacists of state, church and family."

A pity to see terrorist propaganda taken up in this place where reality
should prevail.

Western culture stopped spreading by force before WWII, but it's still
in demand. Guess what - it IS superior! Not surprisingly, cultures based
on individual rights and the cultivation of reason are more effective
than those based on conformity and superstition. Sorry if you don't like
that, but it's true. And it is that ineluctable FACT that the fanatics
of 9/11 hate. They hate the fact that the people they want to control
like our culture better.

Marc de Piolenc
Iligan, Lanao del Norte
Philippines
-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

Rather than make war on the American people and their
liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways
to empower them to protect themselves when
warranted.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Dec 28 11:23:30 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:23:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Western Culture
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011228094502.00801510@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 11:48 AM 12/28/01 -0800, John Young wrote:
> >of northern European hinterlands, Anglo-Saxon defectives
> >still enthralled with ceremonial violence inherent in
> >costume, sports, entertainment, prejudice, pride, and
> >exculpation of ego-driven indifference to harm caused
> >others 
> 
> Wait, are you talking about football (soccer) or religion?
> 
> I suppose for some there is litle difference..

If you look at the psychological and emotional drives behind them, what
are their differences? Expressions of the same wold-view.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 19:05:37 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:05:37 +1100
Subject: Crypto Cock rings for a circle of eunuches.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228134706.00a538f0@pop.useoz.com>


Due to the unfortunate legal position you may find yrself in should you not 
stop when requested to do so during coitus,
Proffr promotions is pleased to announce exploding cockring control.A 
plastic rubber compound slips onto the base
of the penis,with a hair trigger explosive directed charge you better climb 
off before you get blown off.
Proffr is also franchising Hooters and Buda-Bing strip clubs down 
under.Anarcho-capitalism Rulez!

jya>>Beheading the centers of information warfare would be the end of 
Western culture.<<

What did Ghandi say about Western culture? That it sounded like a good 
idea? If you want to psychologically adjust read some green 
anarchy/primitivist stuff."For the end of civilization"

On this day or thereabouts...1763 -- A troop of 50 armed men enter the 
Workhouse
at Lancaster, Pennsylvania, & hatchet to death the only
14 surviving Conestoga Indians (the rest of the tribe
having been similarly dispensed with 13 days ago).
Having finished their work, the troop, in the
words of Benjamin Franklin, "huzzahed in
triumph as if it had gained a victory, & rode
off unmolested."




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 19:47:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:47:49 +1100
Subject: Our friends from SIMULACRON 3
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228141450.00a58810@pop.useoz.com>


What about Simulacron 3?
I haven't read this book but am concerned about the fact that it's being 
given credit for inventing cyberspace. What about Simulacron 3 by Daniel F. 
Galouye? It was written in 1964 and is all about that virtual world we call 
"cyberspace." (Simulacron 3 is no longer in print and is difficult to find 
but it's worth the read).
Enders Game is a very harsh and brash book. It shows the journey of one 
child from being a sheepish little schoolboy that is tormented by his 
sadistic brother and pampered by his caring sister, to becoming a ruthless 
soldier that is focused on ridding the universe of the buggers (An 
insectoid alien race controlled by a hive mind). This book will leave you 
on the edge of your seat from start to finish. (would also make an 
excellent movie).Xenocide.
The Assassination Bureau (1968)
Synopsis: A caper comedy, inspired by the book "The Assassination Bureau 
Limited," co-written by adventure novelist, Jack London. Oliver Reed plays 
Ivan Dragomiloff, the head of an organization, started by his late father, 
which assassinates political figures, on assignment. When Miss Winter, an 
intrepid, liberal, female reporter offers him the challenge of assigning 
his own execution, Ivan sees it as a golden opportunity to find out just 
how competent his international staff really is, and accepts. A mad chase 
throughout Europe is the result, with Miss Winter following Ivan's every 
move.(Miss Winter,very strict.)
Cities of the red night; The paradox of a post-modern classic...
If someone didn't know better, _Cities of the Red Night_ might come across 
as a simplistic homosexual pornographic pulp space-opera, Mappelthorpe 
meets Edgar Rice Burroughs. The interwoven plot lines (homosexual pirate 
communes? a psychic private detective? an invading radioactive mutant 
virus?) come across as emotionally distant and vacuous, borrowed from pulp 
novels and used as a simple excuse for episodes of vivid sci-fi imagery and 
descriptions of boys with erections. While interesting, they don't seem to 
be the work of genius touted on the front cover.
In the end, however, this book is hopeful and passionate, complex and 
absolutely unique. Burroughs is trying to both conjure up the conditions 
for a perfect utopia, a world free of all interference and control, as well 
as give a mythic explanation for the horrifying state of existence. 
Burroughs is trying to save us, explain us, destroy us, free us. This isn't 
apparent until after the plots have crashed together and shattered apart in 
an end which has absolutely nothing to do with what has come before, while 
also explaining everything...




From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Dec 28 12:05:28 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:05:28 -0500
Subject: Fear and Trembling
Message-ID: <200112282005.PAB11028@mail.lokmail.net>

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From ericm at lne.com  Fri Dec 28 15:16:53 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:16:53 -0800
Subject: cell phone guns
Message-ID: <20011228151653.A14034@slack.lne.com>


22 caliber four-shot pistol hidden inside a cell phone, uncovered
during police raids in Europe.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/phone001205.html

"Cell phone users will have to be made aware that reaching for their
phones in some circumstances could be misinterpreted as a threat by
authorities"


Eric




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Dec 28 13:01:40 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:01:40 -0500
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
Message-ID: 


Are there any existing, available US type
GSM cell phones which provide good 
end-to-end  voice encryption (ie, something
better than the broken GSM crypto).

thanks,

Peter Trei
 




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From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 21:01:43 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:01:43 +1100
Subject: CommieSymp jamesd Alert.Code RED.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228155259.00a944b0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/felkins10.html  Real anarchists found 
at  http://www.free-market.net/news/

this was from a link at  http://www.libertarian.org/  found 
here...http://www.jim.com/world.html

jamesd is a commiesymp.pass it on.( My review of Abel Paz's 
book."Durrutti,the people armed" is up at Amazon.j.)

"Anarchy, USA 1966 This documentary presents the civil rights movement as a 
part of the communist plan for world domination. "God why didn't we go with 
cyber-liberty? Why? Why? Why?




From popkin at nym.alias.net  Fri Dec 28 08:11:12 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 28 Dec 2001 16:11:12 -0000
Subject: Western Culture
References: <3C2BFB85.4FD22896@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: <20011228161112.13457.qmail@nym.alias.net>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 21:23:06 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:23:06 +1100
Subject: Condensed matter physics and BUM
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228161615.00a5a310@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.globalideasbank.org/showidea.php?idea=2574

Wealth distribution is a law of nature
submitted by: Institute for Social Inventions
Summarised from an article by Mark Buchanan, entitled 'That's The Way Money
Goes', in New Scientist (August 19th 2000; New Scientist subs #97 or $140,
tel 44 [0] 1622 778000).

Jean-Philippe Bouchaud and Marc Mezard, two French econophysicists, believe
that wealth falling into the hands of a minority is not just a fact of
life, but a law of nature. They have discovered a connection between the
physics of materials and the movements of money, a link that could
revolutionise the way we think about the distribution of wealth in society.
It could also provide a mathematical basis to theories of free trade and
competition.(cont at URL above)

I hope they're close by to study the day my BUM went psycho.(Barter Units
of Money.Im 9k an hour btw.)
Breaking news...BUMble Bee...handicap leader of Sydney to Hobart...missed
throwing larry into twister...Over...




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 21:44:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:44:17 +1100
Subject: The mattblog that ate Cypherpunks
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228164223.00a5a090@pop.useoz.com>


A novel metaphor called Scopeware, software that automatically arranges
your computer files in chronological order and displays them on your
monitor with the most recent files featured prominently in the foreground.
Scopeware is far more sweeping than a simple rearrangement of icons,
however: in effect, it transfers the role of file clerk from you to the
computer, seamlessly ordering documents of all sorts into convenient,
time-stamped files.
If you have ever forgotten what you named a file or which folder you put it
in, you probably will agree that it's time for a change. The desktop
metaphor is decades old, arising from early-1970s work at Xerox's fabled
Palo Alto Research Center, and was never intended to address today's
computing needs. Indeed, the product that brought the metaphor to
mass-market attention was Apple Computer's 1984 Macintosh; it had no
built-in hard drive, and its floppy disks each stored only 400 kilobytes of
information. Today we're using the same metaphor to manage the countless
files on our ever more capacious hard drives, as well as to access the
virtually limitless information on the Web. The result? Big, messy
hierarchies of folders. Favorites lists where you never find anything
again. Pull-down menus too long to make sense of.
In other words, the desktop metaphor puts the onus on our brains to juggle
this expanding collection of files, folders and lists. Yet "our neurons do
not fire faster, our memory doesn't increase in capacity and we do not
learn to think faster as time progresses," notes Bill Buxton, chief
scientist of Alias/Wavefront, a leading maker of graphic-design tools.
Buxton argues that without better tools to exploit the immense processing
power of today's computers, that power is not much good to us.
That's why many researchersat universities and startups like Gelernter's
Mirror Worlds as well as giants like Microsoft and IBMare searching for
alternatives. They're examining metaphors taken from other media, such as
books or diaries or film; 3-D schemes that use our sense of spatial
orientation to create the illusion of depth on-screen, so that documents
look closer or farther away depending on their importance to us;
alternatives that borrow from video games the notion of having an
intelligent guide, or avatar, to help us find what we're looking for; or
even theories that radically change the notion of what a "computer" is, so
that we no longer think of devices as computers at all and are therefore
open to new ways of interacting with them.
"The desktop metaphor made assumptions about how we use computers that just
aren't true anymore," asserts Don Norman, cofounder of the Nielsen Norman
Group, famed critic of computer design and author of The Design of Everyday
Things. "It's time to throw away the old model."
Learning Esperanto
Cont at http://www.unifr.ch/econophysics/




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec 27 22:11:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:11:36 +1100
Subject: Tim May;Crypto-Fascist,Arabist and Commiesymp.(Quotes Pravda.).
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228165300.00a58250@pop.useoz.com>


May,the famous crypto-fascist,(leftists AND rightists agree on that)
pontificates about "Ontology".More obscurantist nonsense from the CIA
agent,you have,when your not having CIA agents?Who evers got the jackboot
on he will lick it.
Ontological Arguments
... A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L | M | N | O | P | Q | R |
S | T |
U | V | W | X | Y | Z Ontological Arguments. ... History of Ontological
Arguments. ...
Description: Ontological arguments are arguments, for the conclusion that
God exists, from premises which are...
Category: Society > Philosophy > Philosophy of Religion
plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/ - 29k - Cached - Similar
pages

The West Vs Islam? or Monotheism Vs sanity? May will muddy the water,dont
worry.He likes..
Hakim Bey and Ontological Anarchy
The Writings of Hakim Bey. ... Writings as Peter Lamborn
Wilson. Media Creed For The Fin De Siecle; ...
Description: Numerous works of Bey and PL Wilson, plus biographical
information.
Category: Society > Religion and Spirituality > ... > Personalities > Hakim
Bey
www.hermetic.com/bey/ - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

Picked up some real BS here.For an antidote read Zerzan on Bey
at.  http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/pmanarchist.htm

This is great resource for real crypto-anarchists,Tim may spit chips if you
quote from this...http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/dear.htm

The Social Ideology of the Motorcar
Andri Gorz
The worst thing about cars is that they are like castles or villas by the
sea: luxury goods invented for the exclusive pleasure of a very rich
minority, and which in conception and nature were never intended for the
people. Unlike the vacuum cleaner, the radio, or the bicycle, which retain
their use value when everyone has one, the car, like a villa by the sea, is
only desirable and useful insofar as the masses don't have one. That is how
in both conception and original purpose the car is a luxury good. And the
essence of luxury is that it cannot be democratized. If everyone can have
luxury, no one gets any advantages from it. On the contrary, everyone
diddles, cheats, and frustrates everyone else, and is diddled, cheated, and
frustrated in return.(Cont)




From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Dec 28 14:58:30 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:58:30 -0500
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
Message-ID: <200112282258.RAA09588@mail.lokmail.net>

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From faustine at lokmail.net  Fri Dec 28 15:54:02 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:54:02 -0500
Subject: cell phone guns 
Message-ID: <200112282354.SAA24800@mail.lokmail.net>

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From sarah at trance-formation.org  Fri Dec 28 16:00:03 2001
From: sarah at trance-formation.org (sarah at trance-formation.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:00:03 -0500
Subject: Trance-Formation of America: Epilogue
Message-ID: 


--06273750086641367748751700558285342657736745130053
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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The safety and serenity of Alaska provided an atmosphere conducive to
deprogramming, despite the pandemonium that ensued. Mark Phillips was
the first man who not only did not abuse us, but cared for our welfare
and well being. His patient, gentle manner was therapeutic, while his
propensity for handling weapons and apparent intellect kept us safe
against all odds. Through his noble actions, Mark taught Kelly and me
that the world of human interaction in which we had existed for so long
was contrary to most human behavior. We learned that goodness does exist
on this Earth, and that there were those in Washington, D.C. who refused
to tolerate the mind-control atrocities they witnessed us and others
enduring.

As my eyes opened and I woke up to reality, I became enraged. Enraged
for the traumas inflicted on my daughter. Enraged for a lifetime of
abuse at the hands of our country's so called "leaders". Enraged that
the American public had no idea as to who and what was/is running their
country. Mark helped me refocus my rage in a productive direction when
he told me, "The best revenge is total recovery."

I began recovering at the rate of 18 hours a day through intensive
therapy destined to restore my memory and, ultimately, my mind. I
learned the ins and outs of my own mind and recovered my memories in a
journal. The stack of journals grew as over a decade of White House/
Pentagon-level abuse flooded my mind and intruded on my thoughts.
Pictures from my past flashed across my mind as neuron pathways opened
in my brain. I was regaining access to my own mind and control over my
future by recovering my memory of my past. 

Best of all, I was falling deeply in love with Mark Phillips. Why
wouldn't I fall in love? He rescued my daughter and me from certain
demise, restored my free will, and was helping me recover in total
safety, and was the polar opposite of my abusers. He treated me with
love, respect, and thoughtful consideration . Equally as important, Mark
proved to be an ideal father figure to Kelly. He provided here with
unconditional love and deep understanding. Through him, Kelly caught a
glimpse of how kind men could be--and how good life could be. I had long
since ceased to know that such a man even existed.

The love factor in my recovery is considerable. Not only did Mark
Phillips save my life, but now I had a reason to live it! The love we
share kept me going at times--like when Kelly was institutionalized in
1989 for homicidal/suicidal behavior. The loving relationship that Mark
shared with Kelly during our short year together as a family was
sufficient to arm here with the strength to survive her ensuing ordeal
as a victim of the so-called mental health and criminal justice
system.

Kelly, now 15, remains a political prisoner in the custody of the State
of Tennessee where she is denied qualified therapy for the MK-Ultra
Project Monarch Mind-Control abuses she endured. The state of Tennessee,
under the politically powerful influence of Kelly's abusers, is in
violation of numerous laws and basic civil rights in their determined
efforts to keep Kelly from qualified therapy and the family she
loves.

While many of those in positions to make a difference in Kelly's case
operate on a "Need to Know" basis rather than deliberately conspire with
the bad guys, a closer look into Kelly's case history should raise
serious questions in their minds. Questions like; "What could a child
have to do with the so called "National Security" of our country?" The
Juvenile court judge presiding over Kelly's case closed the doors to the
media and onlookers for "reasons of National Security" while gross and
blatant violations of laws and rights ensued.

For over three long years, Kelly and I have been denied our right to an
unbiased attorney while court-appointed advocates and so-called
"guardians" join forces with attorneys paid off by me pedophile father.
My own court-appointed attorney, who doubles for the Juvenile Court
judge when he takes a day off, has yet to represent my interest. My
interest is in Kelly's well being and future-- and if she will have a
future at all.

While Kelly is still amnesic with regard to most of her past, she is
deliberately denied therapeutical access to her past, due to who and
what she will recall. I am denied access to Kelly for fear she would be
triggered into remembering by my mere presence. As for my deliberately
"triggering" Kelly to remember what she was supposed to forget, as her
abusers fear, it has been my experience that recovery must come from the
inside out. Not from outside input. I want no less for Kelly that the
piece/peace of mind I have gained through qualified rehabilitation.
Which raises the questions: Why has the Juvenile court prohibited us
from saying the name "George Bush?" Why is the "Wizard of Oz" a taboo
subject for Kelly while the State of Tennessee provides her with Stephen
King horror novels? Why are Kelly and I forbidden by the court to say
the words "President," "politics," New World Order", and
"mind-control"?.

In an attempt by state employees to "normalize" our relationship, Kelly
and I are forbidden to discuss the past, my immediate efforts to affect
her dire and desperate situation, or future plans as a family.

Most appalling and unjust in Kelly's view is the State of Tennessee's
refusal to allow her any contact whatsoever with Mark Phillips. While I
am hindered from having private conversations with my daughter due to
court ordered supervisions and censorship, Kelly is denied the right to
even wave to Mark across the parking lot. Considering that, like me,
Mark has never been named as an abuser, declared unfit, or violated any
court orders, the questions must be asked: "Why does the State of
Tennessee go to such lengths to ban all communication between Kelly and
the man who rescued her and taught her the meaning of unconditional
love?"

Kelly has asked these questions for years to no avail. The State of
Tennessee refuses to even acknowledge her request for"an unbiased
attorney who will represent her interests instead of those of the
state". Kelly's pleas for an attorney to represent her go no farther
than the deaf ears of the assigned state social worker "managing" her
case. This social worker is operating on a "Need to Know" basis that has
no basis, and she "Needs to Know" that she, along with the State of
Tennessee, will be held accountable in the event that Kelly hurts
someone or herself.

Kelly's frustrations have mounted beyond her ability to cope. I applaud
Kelly for her determined but weakened efforts to stay in control of her
own mind despite being denied qualified rehabilitation for the
devastating results of Project Monarch Mind-Control abuses. Kelly's
daily attempts to accomplish the impossible by psychoLOGICALLY managing
her psychiatric disorder is proportionate to her high intellect and
willful determination. But it is not enough to fend off the
Psychological Warfare that has been waged against her through CIA Damage
Containment practices designed to keep her contained in amnesic silence.
She needs help. She needs a collective voice.

Kelly can be helped through public outcry and through abolishment of the
1947 National Security Act (and 1984 Reagan Amendment to same) that has
destroyed the true security of our once great nation. You can write the
State of Tennessee demanding to know why Kelly is being denied her right
to qualified rehabilitation. 

Thank you. - Cathy O'Brien

Every submitted comment of encouragement will be greatly appreciated!

--
http://www.trance-formation.org/
http://www.trance-formation.com/

Trance-Formation of America: 

Project Monarch (excerpt #1)
   http://www.trance-formation.com/book_excerpts/monarch.htm
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?ID=100925768100
   http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=EC8F5BAE.8523C14B%40trance-formation.com&output=gplain
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CEC8F5BAE.8523C14B at trance-formation.com%3E

>From Dorothy to Tinker-Belle (excerpt #2)
   http://www.trance-formation.com/book_excerpts/dorothy.htm
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?ID=100925953900
   http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1175735356578104241520878%40news.clara.net&output=gplain
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C62371BB7.8BC522F0 at news.clara.net%3E

The Most Dangerous Game (excerpt #3)
   http://www.trance-formation.com/book_excerpts/game.htm
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?ID=100930112200
   http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=MPG.3f72db4fab9e%40166.82.1.9&output=gplain
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CMPG.3f72db4fab9e at 166.82.1.9%3E

You Are What You Read (excerpt #4)
   http://www.trance-formation.com/book_excerpts/read.htm
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?ID=100933907900
   http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1ef3ad%245oz%241%40168.95.195.16&output=gplain
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C1ef3ad%245oz%241 at 168.95.195.16%3E

The Most Dangerous Game: Revisited (excerpt #5)
   http://www.trance-formation.com/book_excerpts/regame.htm
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?ID=100949997400   
   http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=e138c973.25b3142c%40trance-formation.org&output=gplain
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Ce138c973.25b3142c at trance-formation.org%3E

Clinton Coke Lines (excerpt #6)
   http://www.trance-formation.com/book_excerpts/cokelines.htm
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?ID=100950207100
   http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=311e7c95.f10eeeaa%40trance-formation.org&output=gplain
   http://howardk.moonfall.com/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C311e7c95.f10eeeaa at trance-formation.org%3E
--

--06273750086641367748751700558285342657736745130053
Content-type: text/html; name="qmgx.htm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="qmgx.htm"



Epilogue



 



EPILOGUE OF TRANCE FORMATION



 


The safety and serenity of Alaska provided an atmosphere conducive to
deprogramming, despite the pandemonium that ensued. Mark Phillips was
the first man who not only did not abuse us, but cared for our welfare
and well being. His patient, gentle manner was therapeutic, while his
propensity for handling weapons and apparent intellect kept us safe
against all odds. Through his noble actions, Mark taught Kelly and me
that the world of human interaction in which we had existed for so long
was contrary to most human behavior. We learned that goodness does exist
on this Earth, and that there were those in Washington, D.C. who refused
to tolerate the mind-control atrocities they witnessed us and others
enduring.
 

 
As my eyes opened and I woke up to reality, I became enraged. Enraged
for the traumas inflicted on my daughter. Enraged for a lifetime of
abuse at the hands of our country's so called "leaders". Enraged that
the American public had no idea as to who and what was/is running their
country. Mark helped me refocus my rage in a productive direction when
he told me, "The best revenge is total recovery."
 

 
I began recovering at the rate of 18 hours a day through intensive
therapy destined to restore my memory and, ultimately, my mind. I
learned the ins and outs of my own mind and recovered my memories in a
journal. The stack of journals grew as over a decade of White House/
Pentagon-level abuse flooded my mind and intruded on my thoughts.
Pictures from my past flashed across my mind as neuron pathways opened
in my brain. I was regaining access to my own mind and control over my
future by recovering my memory of my past. 
 

 
Best of all, I was falling deeply in love with Mark Phillips. Why
wouldn't I fall in love? He rescued my daughter and me from certain
demise, restored my free will, and was helping me recover in total
safety, and was the polar opposite of my abusers. He treated me with
love, respect, and thoughtful consideration . Equally as important, Mark
proved to be an ideal father figure to Kelly. He provided here with
unconditional love and deep understanding. Through him, Kelly caught a
glimpse of how kind men could be--and how good life could be. I had long
since ceased to know that such a man even existed.
 

 
The love factor in my recovery is considerable. Not only did Mark
Phillips save my life, but now I had a reason to live it! The love we
share kept me going at times--like when Kelly was institutionalized in
1989 for homicidal/suicidal behavior. The loving relationship that Mark
shared with Kelly during our short year together as a family was
sufficient to arm here with the strength to survive her ensuing ordeal
as a victim of the so-called mental health and criminal justice
system.
 

 
Kelly, now 15, remains a political prisoner in the custody of the State
of Tennessee where she is denied qualified therapy for the MK-Ultra
Project Monarch Mind-Control abuses she endured. The state of Tennessee,
under the politically powerful influence of Kelly's abusers, is in
violation of numerous laws and basic civil rights in their determined
efforts to keep Kelly from qualified therapy and the family she
loves.
 

 
While many of those in positions to make a difference in Kelly's case
operate on a "Need to Know" basis rather than deliberately conspire with
the bad guys, a closer look into Kelly's case history should raise
serious questions in their minds. Questions like; "What could a child
have to do with the so called "National Security" of our country?" The
Juvenile court judge presiding over Kelly's case closed the doors to the
media and onlookers for "reasons of National Security" while gross and
blatant violations of laws and rights ensued.
 

 
For over three long years, Kelly and I have been denied our right to an
unbiased attorney while court-appointed advocates and so-called
"guardians" join forces with attorneys paid off by me pedophile father.
My own court-appointed attorney, who doubles for the Juvenile Court
judge when he takes a day off, has yet to represent my interest. My
interest is in Kelly's well being and future-- and if she will have a
future at all.
 

 
While Kelly is still amnesic with regard to most of her past, she is
deliberately denied therapeutical access to her past, due to who and
what she will recall. I am denied access to Kelly for fear she would be
triggered into remembering by my mere presence. As for my deliberately
"triggering" Kelly to remember what she was supposed to forget, as her
abusers fear, it has been my experience that recovery must come from the
inside out. Not from outside input. I want no less for Kelly that the
piece/peace of mind I have gained through qualified rehabilitation.
Which raises the questions: Why has the Juvenile court prohibited us
from saying the name "George Bush?" Why is the "Wizard of Oz" a taboo
subject for Kelly while the State of Tennessee provides her with Stephen
King horror novels? Why are Kelly and I forbidden by the court to say
the words "President," "politics," New World Order", and
"mind-control"?.
 

 
In an attempt by state employees to "normalize" our relationship, Kelly
and I are forbidden to discuss the past, my immediate efforts to affect
her dire and desperate situation, or future plans as a family.
 

 
Most appalling and unjust in Kelly's view is the State of Tennessee's
refusal to allow her any contact whatsoever with Mark Phillips. While I
am hindered from having private conversations with my daughter due to
court ordered supervisions and censorship, Kelly is denied the right to
even wave to Mark across the parking lot. Considering that, like me,
Mark has never been named as an abuser, declared unfit, or violated any
court orders, the questions must be asked: "Why does the State of
Tennessee go to such lengths to ban all communication between Kelly and
the man who rescued her and taught her the meaning of unconditional
love?"
 

 
Kelly has asked these questions for years to no avail. The State of
Tennessee refuses to even acknowledge her request for"an unbiased
attorney who will represent her interests instead of those of the
state". Kelly's pleas for an attorney to represent her go no farther
than the deaf ears of the assigned state social worker "managing" her
case. This social worker is operating on a "Need to Know" basis that has
no basis, and she "Needs to Know" that she, along with the State of
Tennessee, will be held accountable in the event that Kelly hurts
someone or herself.
 

 
Kelly's frustrations have mounted beyond her ability to cope. I applaud
Kelly for her determined but weakened efforts to stay in control of her
own mind despite being denied qualified rehabilitation for the
devastating results of Project Monarch Mind-Control abuses. Kelly's
daily attempts to accomplish the impossible by psychoLOGICALLY managing
her psychiatric disorder is proportionate to her high intellect and
willful determination. But it is not enough to fend off the
Psychological Warfare that has been waged against her through CIA Damage
Containment practices designed to keep her contained in amnesic silence.
She needs help. She needs a collective voice.
 

 
Kelly can be helped through public outcry and through abolishment of the
1947 National Security Act (and 1984 Reagan Amendment to same) that has
destroyed the true security of our once great nation. You can write the
State of Tennessee demanding to know why Kelly is being denied her right
to qualified rehabilitation.
 
 Thank you. - Cathy O'Brien

 


 
 

Every submitted comment of encouragement

 will be greatly appreciated!



                                                                                                                             









 
 



--06273750086641367748751700558285342657736745130053--
Yesterday, go sow a twig!  

It will wistfully cook lower and receives our fresh, cosmetic 
pens around a ceiling.  Bob's hen burns before our ticket after we 
waste alongside it.  She can behave the sour envelope and depart it 
above its satellite.  Where did Abdel taste the button beneath the 
humble dog?  My blank card won't pour before I seek it.  As strangely as 
Russ cares, you can walk the bucket much more deeply.  Let's 
tease about the angry caves, but don't jump the deep codes.  
Hardly any proud clouds improve Milton, and they finitely answer 
Mustafa too.  Some balls will be filthy outer stickers.  I was 
scolding to dye you some of my rude walnuts.  

Generally Alice will play the puddle, and if Charlie admiringly 
changes it too, the pitcher will talk alongside the cheap office.  
These days, Allan never kicks until Wally combs the sick cobbler 
monthly.  Edwin, between cars dark and raw, moves around it, 
conversing nearly.  Many cases virtually solve the good kiosk.  

It's very stale today, I'll believe bimonthly or Pam will shout the 
cats.  It should truly call within lean heavy rivers.  Where doesn't 
Tariq recollect halfheartedly?  

Other dry shallow powders will cover strongly behind shoes.  Some 
bandages mould, climb, and smell.  Others undoubtably recommend.  Better 
expect jackets now or Nelly will wickedly learn them below you.  Both 
arriving now, Jadallah and Chester joined the old houses in front of 
kind lemon.  






From measl at mfn.org  Fri Dec 28 17:57:09 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:57:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable  
 coward.RIP.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:

> Yeah, IMHO mattd is in the end stage of neurosyphilis, which he got from
> Vulis.  

ROTFLOL!!! I haven't heard *that* name thrown around in a while ;-)!!!

> I tried to make heads or tails out of it, but he beats otoT on the
> weirdness level.  

It's not "weird", it's incoherent: there _is_ a difference.

> At least otoT had style...

Amen.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From tcmay at got.net  Fri Dec 28 21:42:57 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:42:57 -0800
Subject: Afghans Demand End to Bombing
In-Reply-To: <003a01c19027$ee16cb00$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: 


On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 09:16 PM, Jon Beets wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anonymous" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:00 PM
> Subject: Afghans Demand End to Bombing
>
>
>>    Heard on the news tonight that the "interim Afghan government" was
>> demanding an end to the bombing in 3 days, and that all troops
>> leave in 6 months.
>
> Can you show a reference to this?  Everything I read today said tribal
> leaders from the Paktia province were wanting the bombing to stop... I 
> read
> nothing about the interim government stating it...

It took me less than a minute to retrieve several articles with quotes 
from members of the interim government. Here's just one of them:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011228/ts/attack_dc_1192.html

If you challenge someone to "show a reference to this" you should have 
at least spent a minute looking.

>
> Again I still hav'nt seen a reference where Bush stated our troops will 
> be
> there for a long time.. He did say the war on terrorism will last a long
> time but where did he explicitly say they would be in Afghanistan for 
> along
> time?....

You haven't seen a reference? Then you haven't looked, have you?

It took me another 30 seconds to find this (though I remembered it from 
seeing Bush's comments today in Crawford):

"With operational commander Gen. Tommy Franks at his side at his 
Crawford, Texas, ranch, Bush said he expected U.S. forces to remain in 
Afghanistan ``for quite a long period of time.''"

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011228/ts/attack_dc_1196.html

--Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood 
of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 28 03:10:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:10:17 +1100
Subject: Fear and Trembling.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228211705.00a59ea0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>At 09:53 PM 12/27/01 -0800, John Young wrote:
 >Targets for centers of these exports are not hard to
 >identify,

After the WTC, the only truly theatrically worth it
encore I can think of is a stinger at the space shuttle.
This would not trepan the serpent but would
kick the angst up a notch.

Then again, there's always Utah...<<

Talk about a target rich environment! They tip their hand by pulling the 
juiciest targets off the web.(To late!)
Nuclear targets available on Blacknet,freenet and all the wildnets.
The way to retreat to win is cut the shebang down the middle or break it 
into 5 regions ala TM.Wisdom of Insecurity.Decentralised minarchist govt as 
described in AP essay.and...http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html 
Assassination Politics.
"Armoring" the shell with Vartherland Defense and letting paranoid 
police/stormtroopers run riot is bringing on chaos and catastrophic collapse.
Lets all stop kidding ourselves.The last empires going down and the best 
things to give it a nudge.Start mapping the busiest nodes of US Imperialist 
power.Cheney and Armitage,creatures like that,that are heavily networked.In 
culture you could wack out the scientologists,the fallwels and 
limbaughs,all those Haven fucken' Hamiltons.Dont be shy about their 
secondaries either.They cant operate without support.List the pricks,start 
with a few dead ones like JEHoover and so on then get set to start crossing 
off the new names.All federal employees got fair warning.They are 
legitimate targets.
A nuremburg website for all the latter day 
goebbal's,speer's,goering's,hess's,canaris's,Krupp's,liefenstahl's,eichmann's,etc.All 
crap corporate media heads.Yeah!
CRyptome can do it.With all the mirrors now,your *safe.*There's no way in 
hell this arbusto e neumann presidents going to last out his term.Its true 
its not just the state,we all seem to agree,here on the evils of the state 
but it IS time the other authoritarian hierarchies got equal time.Time to 
die.We're all on a runaway train so its time for Rankin to make his move.
Y'Hear me Rankin! COME ON DOWN!

Mannie.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec 28 20:29:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:29:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: VANGUARD: Actions Have Consequences:  or, How to Advance Your Beliefs By Helping a Candidate (fwd)
Message-ID: 




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:41:15 -0800
From: "TheVanguard.org" 
To: "TheVanguard.org" 
Subject: VANGUARD: Actions Have Consequences:  or, How to Advance Your Beliefs By Helping a Candidate



[EDITOR'S NOTE:  In honor of the approaching election year, we take this
opportunity to distribute the following article by Rod D. Martin, founder
and chairman of Vanguard PAC.]

==========================


Vanguard of the Revolution
http://www.theVanguard.org


ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES:  or, How to
Advance Your Beliefs By Helping a Candidate

by Rod D. Martin
� 27 March 2001


    Conservatives forever complain about their political leaders.  But they
don�t do a lot about it.

    Liberals (or more precisely, Leftists) are quite different.  Coming as
they do mostly from distinct interest groups possessing activist political
cultures and a sense of victimization (be they unionized workers, civil
rights activists, feminists or whomever), leftists grow up on a steady diet
not only of ideas, but of the strategies and tactics necessary to win.  From
cradle to grave, they look to the state as a sort of political savior, and
they learn early how to get from it what they want.

    By contrast, conservatives do not and never have thought in these terms.
Generally, conservatives just want to be left alone, and see government as a
necessary evil, nothing more.  Their lives focus elsewhere:  business,
church, family, civic groups, almost anywhere but politics.  They see
political activity not as a perpetual opportunity to gain advantages, but as
an arena where (every so often) they must defend themselves from the latest
government encroachment.

    This difference in culture is staggering, and accounts for much of the
Left�s success in the 20th Century.  Conservatives do not think politically;
Liberals do.  And while the Left hones its strategies and tactics year after
year � spread across millions of individual people and thousands of
institutions � conservatives wake up periodically, notice there�s an
election, expend a little half-hearted effort, and go back to sleep.

    Because of this relative detachment, conservatives demonstrate a
remarkably persistent naivet�.  Not only do they rarely understand the
system (or what the Left has done and continues to do to them); they also
subscribe year after year to the Sir Galahad theory of politics:  "our ideas
will win because our hearts are pure."  This foolishness costs their
movement not only elections but innumerable volunteers (and donors) every
year, good men and women who cannot understand why their sheer rightness has
not persuaded and conquered all.  Meanwhile, the Left marches on.

    The hard truth is, however wonderful our ideas may be, it is not those
ideas but the actions they inspire which have consequences in the real
world.1   And all those whiney conservatives, waiting for Trent Lott (or
whomever) to effortlessly give them their hearts� desires, are getting
exactly what they deserve.  The concept is as old as the Bible:  those who
do not work, shall not eat.


INFLUENCE AND POWER

    At times almost despite themselves, conservatives over the past
generation have come to hold tremendous influence.  They have also held some
power.  The confusion of these concepts has lead to much needless
consternation.

    In Morton Blackwell�s words, "Power means you can make things happen.
Influence means that those with power will return your telephone calls and
seriously consider what you suggest. Only those with power govern."

    The aim of any political movement is power, power for the purpose of
implementing the movement�s beliefs.  All the influence in the world will
not replace this power.  In the 1990s, many conservatives became highly
disillusioned with their leaders, who seemed to constantly compromise.  They
failed to understand that though Republicans held the Congress,
conservatives were still a minority.  They had gained tremendous influence,
but only a share of the power.  Having a seat at the table, they could
dicker, but they could not dictate.  They needed numbers.

    There�s only one way they will ever get those numbers:  they must elect
more conservatives.  Not Republicans; conservatives.  This is no slap at the
Republican Party:  it is simply a recognition that the two ideas are not
synonymous, however much overlap there may be, and that if conservatives
want that to change, they�ll have to work for that too.  Furthermore, it�s a
statement that the party primary often matters a great deal; and that � as
the Left has always known � the political cycle is year-round, every year.
In that never-ending fight, it is the candidates who go out to do battle,
who bleed and sweat and die for your beliefs.  And at the end of the day,
they � and only they � will have a chance to make and execute the laws.

    Most people will never be candidates.  At most they will only have
influence (which is certainly not to be despised), and many won�t even have
that.  But they can give their ideas power � and exercise a measure of power
themselves � by working hard for a candidate who shares their views.  In
fact, there is absolutely no more effective way than this by which the
average person may bring about meaningful political change.


SO WHAT CAN I DO?

    The question for many, therefore, becomes:  "So what can I do?  And what
could I possibly offer."  The answer is, "Quite a lot!"  For all the talk of
big money in politics, the truth is that most campaigns are run on
shoestrings, with the lion�s share of what cash there might be going to
television ads at the very end, leaving all the real work to be done on
almost nothing.  Nowhere is this more true than in a challenger race, where
a (usually semi-unknown) candidate tries to make headway against everything
the other party can throw at him, and often everything his own party can
throw at him too (this is not a criticism:  parties shouldn�t just give away
their nomination, after all).  This is usually your candidate (we�re trying
to gain seats, after all):  tired, broke and pummeled from all sides.

    Yes, there�s quite a lot you can do for this candidate.  Even a handful
of truly faithful people could change his world, and the outcome of the
election.

    Speaking as a former (and future) candidate for the U.S. House, I submit
the following items you can and should do for the standard-bearer of your
choice.  The list is not exhaustive, but it will keep you both busy and
effective.

1.  PICK A CANDIDATE.  With all due respect to those wonderful men and women
who yearly work in support of every candidate in sight, there remains great
wisdom in Christ�s words that no one can serve two masters.  The average
volunteer has neither time nor mental energy for more than one race, at
least not beyond a superficial level.  Hence, if you don�t pick one
candidate on whom to focus, you will do a bad job for everyone, and advance
the cause very little.

    Picking a candidate is a matter of taste:  who excites you, who believes
most like you, who is running for an office you care about, who is running
against someone you really want defeated.  The issue is not whether you
throw yourself wholeheartedly into a campaign for Congress or for Justice of
the Peace; rather, the issue is whether you pick one and follow through.

    Finally, make your choice early and stick like glue.  The early phases
of a campaign are generally its most tenuous, with limited support, little
or no money, and the most overwhelming task of all:  getting noticed and
breaking out of the pack.  Likewise, later on, the campaign will certainly
face any number of challenges, from run-away success (which often leads to
complacency and defeat) to persistently low polling numbers (which are often
misleading, but run away crucial support) to crippling allegations (which
may or may not be true) to internal incompetence or strife among the
volunteers or staff.  Murphy�s Law was specifically written for political
campaigns, and you need to be there through thick and thin, working like
everything depended on you.  When the smoke clears, and hordes of others
have fallen away, it may just turn out that everything did.

2.  PICK THE RIGHT CANDIDATE.  Since you�re going to be working so hard and
so long for this person, you really need to pick well from the start.
Again, this is a matter of taste; and yet most conservatives have very
specific ideological views they want their candidates to share, and insofar
as possible this should be determined up front.

    This is not to say that the candidate owes you limitless time; neither
is it to say that you have a right to treat him rudely or "examine" him like
a professor.  But if he�s written extensively (and some candidates have),
read what he�s written.  Call him on the phone or email him:  some
candidates respond very well to this.  If he�s reasonably accessible, feel
free to ask him to dinner (and buy his dinner:  he�s broke.  He�s giving up
all his time, income and personal savings to work around the clock for you).
Don�t get offended if he�s not available, either (and expect to be passed to
a scheduler):  he has a family, possibly a job, and literally thousands if
not millions of other people also seeking his time.  If worse comes to
worst, you can usually speak with him at or after political meetings or
speeches.

    But somehow, get to know him, not necessarily like you know your best
friend, but well enough to determine whether you think he�s a good guy,
whether you trust him, and whether you want to see him win.  When the chips
are down, these feelings and impressions may make the difference between
victory and defeat.

3.  CUT HIM SOME SLACK.  Once you�ve picked him, remember that the candidate
is human, just like you.  You make mistakes, you sometimes fail to think
before you speak, you don�t always know everything about everything, and
every now and then you do something really wrong.  So does your candidate.
Take it for granted.

    Now admittedly, if the candidate turns out to be an axe-murderer, you
might want to re-think your support.  But short of that, it�s important to
be very realistic:  just as when you married, you picked this guy for better
or worse, and you know on the front end he�s going to have unseen warts.
Bailing at the first sign of trouble � or at the first policy disagreement �
is not only bad form, it�s cowardly.  And if you�re looking for a candidate
who perfectly reflects your own views, go run yourself.

    Now of course, you may certainly seek to educate your candidate:  maybe
he just doesn�t understand, or hasn�t ever thought about what you believe,
or is getting bad advice.  Look for an opportunity to politely, concisely
and effectively present your side.  But don�t take it personally if you fail
to convince him:  you may well do so later, and even if you don�t, if you
picked him in the first place, chances are that disagreements on one or two
issues are nothing compared to all the things about which you agree.

    4.  GIVE MONEY, EVEN IF IT�S ONLY A LITTLE.  No matter what you can or
cannot give, this matters, more than you know.  And the earlier you give,
the more it matters.

    Everyone knows that campaigns run on money; what they don�t always grasp
is that a successful candidate must spend at least half his time just
raising that cash.  Challengers have a special problem, in that the people
who can most help them judge their viability by how much they raise early,
and from how many different donors they raise it.  Your $25 check is a vital
part of building the support your candidate needs from so-called "major
donors", from the party committees in Washington, from potential endorsers,
and from the media.  It will also buy about 167 desperately-needed bulk-rate
stamps.

    Obviously, it is essential that you give as much as you can.  Far fewer
people are giving than you think, and your candidate is spending enormous
time (and money) reaching them.  Your early help will make his work easier,
more effective, and more concentrated on actual campaigning.  Oh, and one
other thing:  if a candidate tells you he�s in a financial crisis, don�t
just assume it�s a sales pitch.  It�s almost always true.

5.  LET THE CAMPAIGN KNOW YOU�RE AVAILABLE, AND FIND OUT WHAT IT NEEDS.  As
important as money is, nothing you can give is so valuable as your time; and
the campaign could never pay enough people to replace its better volunteers.
Be one.

    How do you do this?  Call the campaign and let them know you want to
help.  Below I will give some specific ideas which you should offer (the
campaign does not always know what it needs, since it�s almost always
understaffed and under-funded); however, you should also make yourself
generally available, and be open to the specific requests the campaign may
make.

    Who do I mean when I say "the campaign"?  There�s no one answer.  It
could be a campaign manager, a volunteer coordinator, a scheduler, the
candidate himself, or any number of other people.  And it may well shift
from week to week.

    Don�t let this daunt you.  Just go with the flow, and be patient.  If
you�ve offered yourself and the campaign hasn�t gotten back with you,
politely offer again, and again:  chances are, you�ve gotten lost in an
almost impossible shuffle (and if you have time and organization ability,
this may be your cue to volunteer as an office manager).  Don�t be foolishly
offended by the chaos that characterizes every campaign.  Instead, view it
as an opportunity to make a desperately needed difference.

6.  HOST AN EVENT.  More than anything else, candidates need exposure and
money.  Kill two birds with one stone and host a coffee (or something
bigger).

    Nothing is as important as these events, whereby you bring your
candidate and your friends together.  The friends will come for your sake;
the candidate will gain credibility with them because of you; and if you
pass the plate, you�ll raise some money, all for the cost of some Folger�s.

    Many successful candidates learn to book three to five of these a day,
which should tell you how vital they are, and which should also tell you how
many people are going to have to agree to host them.  Don�t wait to be
asked:  volunteer early, and often.

7.  MAKE PHONE CALLS.  Phone banks cost a lot of money, but are a
phenomenally effective tool, for polling, fundraising, getting out the vote
and a thousand other things.  You can save the campaign tons of cash by
being a phone volunteer.  It�s not the most pleasant work you�ll ever do,
but it can be very rewarding, and is vital to the effort.  Make sure the
campaign provides you a script, and practice it a few times before you start
your calls.

    Separately, you can and should use your phone to help the campaign in a
very obvious and simple way:  talk to your friends about how wonderful your
candidate is, and how proud of him you are.  This sort of casual,
day-in-day-out effort � no different from talking about how excited you are
about your favorite team � is the stuff of great victories.  When people
start talking like this, a certain "win psychology" develops, and real
momentum builds:  momentum money could never buy.

8.  USE EMAIL EFFECTIVELY.  At least as powerful as personal phone calls,
personal emails to friends are taking a greater and greater role in
campaigns.  Spread the word to your friends, by forwarding campaign emails,
news stories, and your own personal thoughts to your personal address book.
You send all those people lame jokes:  why not the good news about your
candidate (and your worldview)?

    Moreover, it may be that you are specially talented with email or the
web and wish to help in a more formal way.  Most campaigns need quality
people who can create and maintain an online presence, be it a website, an
email list, a chat room, or a prayer team (and just for the record, no one
has used the internet more effectively than Pat Buchanan�s Linda Muller,
with Jesse Ventura�s team running a close second).  If you�d like to help
this way, you�re needed.

9.  WRITE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR.  Everyone talks about this, but no one does
it.  No one except winning campaigns, that is.

    The truth is, everyone reads the letters to the editor, and much of the
word-of-mouth side of the campaign develops there.  What�s more, this is
absolutely free media, and being from "regular" people, it is far more
persuasive than a campaign news release (which few ever see anyway).

    A smart campaign will organize a large number of people to regularly
write letters to the editor, and mail them to all the local papers.  Don�t
wait to be contacted:  call the campaign yourself, preferably the press
secretary.  If possible, write about the message the campaign is focused on
that week.  And if you�re a good writer, find some of your friends who would
be willing to sign a letter but are afraid to actually write one, and draft
letters for them as well (be sure to collect them and mail them too:  people
promise, but often forget).

10.  STUFF ENVELOPES!  No part of the campaign is so important, especially
in an under-funded race where most or all of the direct mail has to be done
in-house.  At the same time, stuffing and addressing envelopes is some of
the most tedious work you can do, and people hate it.  It�s not sexy, and
it�s not fun.  Volunteers tend to flee.  You can not only make an enormous
difference but prove your value and loyalty as well by always being
available for this duty.  You can often save the campaign hundreds or
thousands of dollars through your work, and candidates remember their
envelope stuffers more fondly than anyone else (very important later when
you want to "educate" them on the issues).

11.  HELP WITH THE SIGN EFFORT.  Obviously a crucial part of the campaign�s
advertising, the need is not so much for you to put up a sign in your own
yard (which of course you should do), but to help put signs up all over your
candidate�s district.  Ideally, your candidate will want to put a sign in
every available yard, all on the same night.  Anything you can do to find
willing property owners or physically put up signs will make a huge
difference.

12.  GET OUT THE VOTE.  Conservative candidates have an alarming tendency to
run winning campaigns, only to lose on election day.  This is because the
Left is extremely effective at getting out their voters, while we generally
are not.  One reason for that effectiveness is that Left-leaning labor
unions teach and encourage get-out-the-vote (GOTV) efforts.  Conservatives
have no similar resource.

    Talk to the campaign about what you can do.  Hopefully, they will have a
carefully laid out plan, which will probably include early canvassing, an
absentee ballot effort, poll watching, phone banks, and any number of other
things.  Be flexible and pitch in.  If you don�t, you may throw away a
couple years� work.

13.  PRAY FOR AND ENCOURAGE THE CANDIDATE.  As noted at the outset of the
article, conservatives complain a lot, and never more than in a campaign.
But campaigns run on morale, and complaints are among the most
self-destructive things under Heaven.  And it�s not just the other campaign
workers and volunteers who need a lift:  it�s the candidate himself.

    The candidate � if he�s worth supporting � is killing himself.  You may
at times think he�s arrogant, and sometimes he may be; but he runs on
adrenaline and supports himself with brave words that rarely resemble his
fears, and from early in the morning till late at night, he has to sell a
million skeptics � from CEOs to coffee shop clerks � on himself as a person
and his ideas as a program.  He is the ultimate "man in the arena", facing
every manner of outrageous attack and betrayal every day, working himself to
the bone, trying to juggle finances and family and every aspect of this
small industry the product of which is himself, all in pursuit of a goal far
greater than he.  The smallest word of encouragement at the right moment can
be that one thing which allows him to go on.  In point of fact, it often is.

    Likewise, no one needs your prayers more than your candidate and his
family.  The Bible clearly commands prayer for our leaders, but most people
forget to do it.  You mustn�t.  He needs you.  And more than anything, he
needs the grace of God.

14.  UNDERSTAND THAT WINNING ISN�T EVERYTHING.  Finally, it�s well worth
remembering that most candidates lose, and often lose several times, before
they win.  This dispirits lots of volunteers (and even more candidates), but
it shouldn�t:  it�s just the way of the world.  The early races are often
learning experiences and opportunities to build an organization and the
candidate�s name ID.  This is a good thing, no matter how much more fun it
might be to win every time.

    The wise volunteer will work as though victory is just a matter of doing
that one additional thing within his power; but he�ll also know when to take
his co-workers and his candidate aside, place his hand on their shoulder,
and tell them it�s all going to be okay, we�ll get �em next time.  That wise
volunteer will also follow through on his words, and stay the course for
round two.  Few decent candidates come out of a well-fought but losing race
weaker; most are in a better position than they�ve ever been in their life,
if they�ll learn from their mistakes and move on.  You can be the person who
gives them the strength to do it.  And in so doing, you will advance your
cause concretely, genuinely doing the hard work of freedom.


---------------------------

NOTE

1.  Needless to say for those who have actually read him, Richard Weaver �
whose Ideas Have Consequences has in its title lead many astray at this
point � understood this perfectly; and his short but powerful book remains
one of the truly essential works of conservatism.

PURCHASE RICHARD WEAVER'S EXTRAORDINARY "IDEAS HAVE CONSEQUENCES":
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0226876802/vanguardoftherev/

---------------------------
 



-- Rod D. Martin is Founder and Chairman of Vanguard PAC.  A 
former policy director to Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, he 
is an attorney and writer from Little Rock, Arkansas, and a 
past candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives.

================================================================

To subscribe to "Vanguard of the Revolution", send the message 
"Subscribe Vanguard", or the message "Unsubscribe Vanguard" to 
unsubscribe, to listadmin at theVanguard.org. 

Contact listowner at theVanguard.org if you have questions.

================================================================

http://www.theVanguard.org
Vanguard at theVanguard.org

Vanguard PAC
P. O. Box 250038
Little Rock, AR 72225

================================================================




From measl at mfn.org  Fri Dec 28 20:41:21 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:41:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: NTBugtraq author says virus authors "terrorists"
In-Reply-To: <8490a41f6f24f88fc7073e028f904eed@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> "We need to do this, if for no other reason than to show it's possible (to track virus writers)," Russ Cooper,
> editor of security news list NTBugtraq, said. 
> 
> Forget that it may be problematic to extradite the individual, or that they may be young, or claim to be
> doing 'research.' We need to catch them, and place them in a position whereby they are seen for what
> they are -- a terrorist," Cooper said. "The cost to our businesses, not to mention our way of life, is simply
> too high to not pursue these individuals." 

This is _classic_ Russ Cooper (professional asshole).

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From peter.kuhm at plus.at  Fri Dec 28 14:09:20 2001
From: peter.kuhm at plus.at (Peter Kuhm)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:09:20 +0100
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011228230920.01472770@mail.plus.at>


At 16:01 28.12.01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:

>Are there any existing, available US type
>GSM cell phones which provide good 
>end-to-end  voice encryption (ie, something
>better than the broken GSM crypto).

don't know, but you may have a look at


Rohde & Schwarz  upgrades
a standard SIEMENS S35i with a cryptochip.

According to a article in German language it costs appr. EUR 2,300.--
and they should have sold already 500 pcs to governments.


Peter




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Fri Dec 28 21:16:10 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:16:10 -0600
Subject: Afghans Demand End to Bombing
References: <566afd13dfd02a6cabd40c24833ed2c6@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c19027$ee16cb00$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anonymous" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:00 PM
Subject: Afghans Demand End to Bombing


>    Heard on the news tonight that the "interim Afghan government" was
> demanding an end to the bombing in 3 days, and that all troops
> leave in 6 months.

Can you show a reference to this?  Everything I read today said tribal
leaders from the Paktia province were wanting the bombing to stop... I read
nothing about the interim government stating it...

> Some US general asshole then announced from
> Dubbya's ranch in Texass that "we will decide when we'll stop
> bombing, and nobody else" and Dubbya says the troops will be
> there for a long time.

That "general asshole" has been the one running the compaign in afghanistan.
And yes he is correct that we will be the ones to decide when the bombing
stops.. After all are'nt we the ones who decided when it would start...
duhhhhhh....

Again I still hav'nt seen a reference where Bush stated our troops will be
there for a long time.. He did say the war on terrorism will last a long
time but where did he explicitly say they would be in Afghanistan for along
time?....

>   I love it -- won't it be fun when the Afghans all start
> killing Yanks? Anybody want to bet on how long it will
> be before the first Americans are killed by non-Taliban
> Afghans?

No it won't... But then again doubt it would go that far... There might be
the individual psychopath such as yourself.. But on a whole I would say it
wont happen...

Jon Beets

Get the latest scoop on CoS
http://www.lisatrust.net
http://www.xenutv.com
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.holysmoke.org

Or try these mirrors
http://lisatrust.pacer.com
http://xenutv.pacer.com
http://holysmoke.pacer.com




From blancink at cnw.com  Sat Dec 29 00:10:18 2001
From: blancink at cnw.com (BlancInk)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 00:10:18 -0800
Subject: Article:  Embedding Identities
Message-ID: 


>From http://www.israel21c.com/channels/technology/articles/tech_0014.htm:

Researchers at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev and the University of
Connecticut have designed a novel method for improving the security of
identification cards or passports.

In the sophisticated approach, a block of encrypted information - such as
the bearer's fingerprint pattern or other unique personal facts - can be
concealed within a picture on a document. Because this information is
relevant to the bearer alone, use of the ID by a person resembling the
cardholder is easily unmasked. Moreover, since only the issuer knows the
complex keys used to encrypt the hidden information, it would be nearly
impossible to forge an ID that would pass through the system.

According to Prof. Joseph Rosen at BGU's Department of Electrical and
Computer Engineering, the new development combines two well-known methods of
representing data. One is the half-tone image, a two-dimensional pattern of
larger and smaller dots used in reproducing pictures. The other is a 2D
barcode, in which a checkerboard of tiny dots and spaces represents digital
information.

Barcodes are familiar to all of us: They are the long string of lines
printed on packaging labels for product identification. But a 2D barcode
comprised of small dots can record much more information than the string of
lines and is an inexpensive way to provide extensive data about a person or
a manufactured product.

In this new development, Rosen and his colleague Prof. Bahram Javidi of the
University of Connecticut have combined the 2D halftone image and barcode by
slightly shifting the positions of the arrangement of halftone dots. The
concealed barcode information can be retrieved using what is known as a 2-D
spatial correlator, which contains a confidential filter function that
deciphers the concealed image.

The new technology, Rosen said, is very robust as even a damaged ID picture
or a half-covered picture contains sufficient hidden data to retrieve the
encrypted information. This is because the entirety of secret data is
distributed throughout the picture. However, if the original picture is not
whole, the hidden picture will be reproduced with lower quality. Another
advantage of this development is that both optical and computational
approaches can be used to reveal the hidden data. A patent has been
submitted for the approach to conceal an image within an image.
--------


  ..
Blanc




From postautumn at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 29 00:14:49 2001
From: postautumn at yahoo.com (postautumn at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 00:14:49
Subject: BURGLAR WATCH-A STATE OF WIDESPREAD STINK, OPPORTUNISTIC & RAMPANT THIEVERY, PLAQUE, CHAOS, BARBARISM AND LAWLESS-A GLOBAL REPORT OF BREAK & ENTER,  THEFT, TREPASS, FRAUD, FABRICATION AND COLLUSION CONSPIRED BY VANCOUVER POLICE
Message-ID: <108.465004.858615@billprice>


To All Cybercitizens,
      
The official launching date for our global broadcast: 1 November, 
2000 is supposed to be a celebration marking the completion of 
Global Media Network. But as you're well aware, the reported 
break and enter, theft and other crimes committed by the City of 
Vancouver police which, if unchecked, have the potential to 
destroy human civilization. We offer our service as an impartial, 
fair, unbiased media. Our media network possess the power to 
illuminate the far corners of the globe, not for higher profits, 
but for higher understanding between the people of this great 
planet. We are proud that our media network, as its name implies, 
has the ability to reach every corner of the earth. We offer our 
declaration of principles to the men and the women, to our every 
brothers and sisters in the planet whom we humbly serve. We 
promise to report the news without fear or favor, to be a force 
for good in this world, fighting injustice, crushing intolerance, 
battling inhumanity, striking a blow for freedom at every turn. 
These are the goals of Global Media Network. Join us and visit 
our official web site at http://www.geocities.com/movehand44

 Global Media Network proudly presents REVIEW OF ONE OF THE TOP 
NEWS OF THIS MILLENNIUM:- BURGLAR WATCH-A STATE OF WIDESPREAD 
STINK, OPPORTUNISTIC & RAMPANT THIEVERY, PLAQUE, CHAOS, BARBARISM 
AND LAWLESS-A GLOBAL REPORT OF BREAK & ENTER,  THEFT, TREPASS, 
FRAUD, FABRICATION AND COLLUSION CONSPIRED BY VANCOUVER POLICE

ENACTMENT OF THE INCIDENTS [DETAILS PROVIDED BY THE VICTIM]:

On 6 June, 94. the victim went out at 2:30 p.m.  from his 
apartment. When he gone back at 2:37 p.m. he discovered that both 
his apartment and his bedroom were broken and entered. He 
discovered that his newly bought hi-fi components  (bought at A & 
B Sound) and forty CDs (costed CAD$2,000) were stolen from his 
bedroom.  When he reported the crimes to the police woman badge # 
9082, who admitted the fact of surveillance two years afterwards 
in 1996, she behaved very arrogant. She purposely hanged up the 
phone several times in order to aggravate him. 

Being alerted of constant harassment, out of suspicion, in 21 
September, 96, at 6:00 p.m.,  the victim confirmed with the same 
police woman badge # 9082 via 911 that the Vancouver police had 
placed the audio and video surveillance devices inside his 
apartment. She refused to remove them and asked him to remove 
them. The Vancouver police were very familiar with the 
environment inside the apartment. In other words, the Vancouver 
police specificially targeted at the victim's properties that 
were located at his bedroom and knew exactly when the residents 
inside left the apartment. When the residents left the apartment 
on 6 June 1994, at 2:30 p.m., the Vancouver police sneaked into 
his apartment, stolen his properties and left within a minutes.  
 

In July, 96, he called the Vancouver police in 320 Main Street, 
Vancouver, a male police who had sneaky remarks (about twenty 
something years old, caucasian) lied that the former chief 
constable Ray Canuel was in Atlanta, Georgia so that he could not 
handle the complaint. Afterwards, he sent a letter to Ray Canuel 
(deceased of cancer) in the same month without hearing any 
response. He then presented the complaint in person directly to 
the assistant to Ray Canuel. The assistant deceived him that the 
Vancouver police wouldl respond to his complaint three weeks 
later. The complaint aroused the police's revenge. Two polices 
without search and arrest warrant trespassed his apartment in 
Feb., 97. One caucasian police opened his complaint letter which 
was originally sealed without his consent and he was falsely 
arrested by the two polices. One of the police were a Chinese who 
were about 5"6, 160 lb., black and short hair. Another police 
were a caucasian who were about 6"2, gray and long hair whir 
covered his trim, gray-blue eyes, about 220 lb.. Both polices 
were thirty something years old. The latter one misrepresented 
and called himself as former Chief Constable Ray Canuel 
(deceased). The two polices committed trespass and false arrest. 

The fact that Vancouver police are morally corruptive makes no 
difference to his efforts. When the victim filed the complaint 
through other formal channels three years afterward, i.e. 1999, 
he received a fabricated letter from Sergeant Mike Bernard, 
Office of the Chief Constable, Internal Investigation Section, 
Vancouver Police Department dated 20 May, 99, falsifyinging that 
police badge #581 Dave Turpin, Tony Zanatta had conducted the 
investigations. Indeed, they never contacted him nor take any 
report. Given the Vancouver police are coercive that they collude 
with every party the victim seeks help from or affiliates with. 
When the victim booked an appointment with a security company, 
APC Security in Burnaby, B.C., to do a further sweep on his 
apartment, the Vancouver police colluded with the company not to 
show up at the appointment on 26 July, 99. Similar circumstances 
happened for Brian Brown & Associates INC, owner: Brian; 
operator: Laurie. Ph. (604) 2912121. The Vancouver police 
colluded with Brian and solicited him to defraud the victim 
debugging fees. During the appointment, Brian pretended in front 
of the victim that he was an outsider. Brian spent most of the 
time looking at the manuel. Most of all, Brian failed to provide 
a receipt upon request. Besides, on 6 Aug., 99, the Vancouver 
police called the property manager of Crosby Property Management 
Ltd. to follow him when he walked to the garden. The property 
manager purposely aggravated him and tried to fight with him. The 
property manager asked him to complain to the management (instead 
of the police complaint authorities) so that they can cover up 
the conspiracies....

Extreme and harsh measures must be deployed to curb these police 
crimes, brutalities and abuse. Getting the attention of 
legistative representatives is the first powerful step. The 
existing Canadian civil rights are not extensive enough to 
protect law abiding elements of the society. Additional chapters 
must be provided that detailly outlines whatever civil and 
criminal penalties that would incur to police(s) who commits 
crimes/ infringes rights of legal abiding citizens. 

Who could ask for more?! It is amazing what Vancouver tax payers 
will patronize. Vancouver polices are not what "civilians" meant 
to be. It is terribly sad to see that these people are called 
"law enforcement officials." The law of Canada is well 
established. It is, when really enforced, great! Bluntly, 
Vancouver polices were not even qualified as "servants", 
regarding them as "dogs" was done just as a courtesy. They are 
what can be found in garbage depot, sorry excuse for these people 
who are calling themselves "civil servants"! In contrast, there 
are several cities in North America, e.g. New York (during the 
11th Sept. horror attacks), where good examples of the real 
"civilians" can be found. 


Any feedback can be addressed to Chief Constable Terry Blythe of 
Vancouver Police Department at vpdlmail at vpd.city.vancouver.bc.ca. 
By the way, please join our global action together with ALL media 
and ALL political leaders ALL over the world that have received 
our attention.

Global Media Network
1448 Fir
White Rock, V4B 4B4
info at globalmedianetwork.org


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Dec 29 00:36:25 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 00:36:25 -0800
Subject: Because it's a Lie
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229003401.0380b6c0@pop3.lvcm.com>


Because it's a Lie
http://annoy.com/covers/doc.html?DocumentID=100027

Sung to the tune of 'Because I Got High' by Afroman

Osama bin Laden's friends dropped by to say hi
By taking a few little airplanes outa the sky
(La da da da da da)
They totaled the twin towers and I don't know why
- Saw people die [repeat 3X]

George W. Bush spent the day in the sky
Nowhere in sight, you coulda searched low and high
(La da da da da da)
Karl Rove covered the coward's tracks by telling a lie
- Fucking nice try [repeat 3X]

Condoleeza called the press, a tear in her eye
Bin Laden is sending secrets on video she said with a sigh
(La da da da da da)
Don't bother with the truth when it's surely better to lie
- Don't ask why [repeat 3X]

The networks never stopped to really ask why
They wanted blood - to make sure Afghanis would fry
(La da da da da da)
Now they find themselves gorging on humble pie
- Selling a lie [repeat 3X]

The President could no longer stand it, wanted to cry
Congressmen were leaking and even though his ratings were high
(La da da da da da)
Ari Fleischer warned the media to watch it or bullets would fly
- Don't even try [repeat 3X]
Rumsfeld was overseas selling pie in the sky
Back in the homeland Tommy Thompson didn't know why
(La da da da da da)
Anthrax was sorted while congress homeward did fly
- Letting them die [repeat 3X]
Attorney General Ashcroft ever cunning and sly
After losing elections to opponents who die
(La da da da da da)
Wants to eavesdrop, snoop and detain and lie
- Fuck off and die [repeat 3X]
Bush signed his name to it and then he got high
Cheney photographed while congress idly stood by
(La da da da da da)
The next election we shall bid all of them bye
- Eye for an eye [repeat 3X]
Confusion everywhere you look as accusations fly
Tom Ridge finally hired but he doesn't know why
(La da da da da da)
It's amusing just sitting watching him try
Reign in the FBI [repeat 3X]
September 11 saw towers rising up high
Attacked from jet planes hijacked out of the sky
(La da da da da da)
October twenty six a date forever we'll cry
- Because it's a Lie [repeat 3X]




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Fri Dec 28 16:52:37 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 01:52:37 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [fsml] Euro Banknotes embed RFID chips (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 00:36:31 -0000
From: Andrew Hennessey 
Reply-To: fsml at yahoogroups.com
To: fsml at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fsml] Euro Banknotes embed RFID chips

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011219S0016



Euro bank notes to embed RFID chips by 2005

By Junko Yoshida
EE Times
(12/19/01, 3:03 p.m. EST)

SAN MATEO, Calif. - The European Central Bank is working with technology
partners on a hush-hush project to embed radio frequency identification tags
into the very fibers of euro bank notes by 2005, EE Times has learned.
Intended to foil counterfeiters, the project is developing as Europe
prepares for a massive changeover to the euro, and would create an instant
mass market for RFID chips, which have long sought profitable application.

The banking community and chip suppliers say the integration of an RFID
antenna and chip on a bank note is technically possible, but no bank notes
in the world today employ such a technology. Critics say it's unclear if the
technology can be implemented at a cost that can justify the effort, and
question whether it is robust enough to survive the rough-and-tumble life
span of paper money.

A spokesman for the European Central Bank (ECB) in Frankfurt, Germany
confirmed the existence of a project, but was careful not to comment on its
technologies. At least two European semiconductor makers contacted by EE
Times, Philips Semiconductors and Infineon Technologies, acknowledged their
awareness of the ECB project but said they are under strict nondisclosure
agreements.

The euro will become "the most common currency in the world" at midnight on
Jan. 1, when 12 nations embrace it, according to Ingo Susemihl, vice
president and general manager of RFID group at Infineon. The ECB and
criminal investigators in Europe are already on high alert, worried not only
about counterfeiting of a currency most people haven't seen, but also of a
possible increase in money laundering, given the euro's broad cross-border
reach.

The ECB said 14.5 billion bank notes are being produced, 10 billion of which
will go into circulation at once in January, with 4.5 billion being held in
reserve to accommodate potential leaps in demand.

Thwarting underworld popularity

Although euro bank notes already include such security features as
holograms, foil stripes, special threads, microprinting, special inks and
watermarks, the ECB believes it must add further protection to keep the euro
from becoming the currency of choice in the criminal underworld, where the
U.S. dollar is now the world's most counterfeited currency. The ECB
spokesman said his organization has contacted various central banks
worldwide - not just in Europe - to discuss added security measures for the
currency.

In theory, an RFID tag's ability to read and write information to a bank
note could make it very difficult, for example, for kidnappers to ask for
"unmarked" bills. Further, a tag would give governments and law enforcement
agencies a means to literally "follow the money" in illegal transactions.

"The RFID allows money to carry its own history," by recording information
about where it has been, said Paul Saffo, director of Institute for the
Future (Menlo Park, Calif.).

The embedding of an RFID tag on a bank note is "a fundamental departure"
from the conventional security measures applied to currency, Saffo said.
"Most [currency] security today is based on a false premise that people
would look at the money to see if it is counterfeit," he said. But "nobody
does that. The RFID chip is an important advance because it no longer
depends on humans" to spot funny money.

RFID basics

The basic technology building blocks for RFID on bank notes are similar to
those required for today's smart labels or contactless cards. They require a
contactless data link that can automatically collect information about a
product, place, time or transaction. Smart labels produced by companies such
as Philips Semiconductors, Infineon, STMicroelectronics and Texas
Instruments are already used in such applications as smart airline luggage
tags, library books and for supply chain management of various products.

"Two minimum elements you need for RFID are a chip and an antenna,"
according to Gordon Kenneth Andrew Oswald, associate director at Arthur D.
Little Inc., a technology consulting firm based in Cambridge, Mass. When a
bank note passes through reader equipment, the antenna on the note collects
energy and converts it to electric energy to activates the chip, he said.

The antenna then "provides a communication path between a chip [on the bank
note] and the rest of the world," said Tres Wiley, emerging markets strategy
manager for RFID Systems at TI. For its part, the chip "is a dedicated
processor to handle protocols, to carry out data encoding to send and
receive data and address memory" embedded on the chip.

Although the industry is "well down the road with the smart label
technology," Wiley said he was "a bit surprised to learn that someone goes
to that extent - to embed RFID into bank notes - to combat counterfeit
money."

A number of challenges must be overcome before RFID tags can be embedded on
bills, said Kevin Ashton, executive director of the Auto ID Center at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "The most obvious one is the price,"
he said. Today's RFID tags cost between 20 cents to $1.00, and "that's not
economic enough for most bills," Ashton said. "We've absolutely got to get
the cost way down." The goal of the Auto ID Center is to find an application
that requires billions of RFID chips to bring their cost as low as 5 cents,
he added.

While most chip companies with RFID expertise are keeping their plans for
money applications close to their chest, Hitachi Ltd. announced plans last
July for a chip designed for paper money that would pack RF circuitry and
ROM in a 0.4-mm square circuit measuring 60 microns thick. Although the chip
features no rewritable capability, Ryo Imura, chief executive of Hitachi's
Mew Solutions venture, said at the time of announcement, "We'll consider
them for the next generation [of] products." Hitachi's chip stores encrypted
ID information in ROM during the manufacturing process, presumably to
replace the serial number of each bank note.

Even without writable memory, Hitachi's chip is said to be fairly costly.
Hitachi declined to be interviewed for this article.

While the size of the rewritable memory embedded on an RFID chip will
determine the kinds of information it can store, it also affects the chip's
cost.

Affordable with bigger bills

It is unclear whether the ECB will incorporate RFID chips into all euro bank
notes or just on the larger bills. The EUR 200 and EUR 500 bank notes in
particular - equivalent to roughly $200 and $500 in value - are expected to
be popular in the "informal" economy. Embedding a 30 cents chip into a EUR
500 bill would make more sense than putting it into a European buck, several
industry sources said.

Manufacturing processes are also considered a major hurdle to embedding a
low-cost antenna and chip onto bank notes. "The chip is already so small,"
MIT's Ashton said. "To connect the two ends of a coil - an antenna - at
precisely the right place on a chip could present a major problem."

A printing process is an option, Ashton said, but "you need a breakthrough
in the high-volume manufacturing process." Such a technology does not exist
today, he said.

Size and thickness are key attributes of an RFID chip for paper currency,
said Karsten Ottenberg, senior vice president and general manager of
business unit identification at Philips Semiconductors. "For putting chips
into documents, they need to be very small - less than a square millimeter -
and thin such that they are not cracking under mechanical stress of the
document. Thinning down to 50 micron and below is a key challenge." That
would require advanced mechanical and chemical techniques, he said.

Bank notes present "an interesting future application for us," said Tom
Pounds, vice president of RFID projects at Alien Technology, which holds the
rights to a fabrication process that suspends tiny semiconductor devices in
a liquid that's deposited over a substrate containing holes of corresponding
shape. The devices settle on the substrate and self-align. Rather than
working on the interconnection to an RF antenna one chip at a time, "we can
do a massively parallel interconnection," Pounds said. Bank notes are not
Alien's primary focus at present, he said.





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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Dec 29 02:20:20 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 02:20:20 -0800
Subject: VANGUARD: Actions Have Consequences:  or, How to Advance
  Your Beliefs By Helping a Candidate (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229021112.0332a120@idiom.com>


Jim, I'm really surprised that you forwarded this spam to the list.
I received it directly also.

While he does have some useful comments about political organizing,
some of what he says about liberal/conservative differences is a pure crock.
We're in the middle of a radically activist right-wing statist 
administration -
they're doing far more than the Reaganites ever accomplished as far as
building up the political power of the military, reducing civil liberties for
citizens as well as non-citizen residents and travelers, strengthening the 
police agencies,
and moving power away from Congress and into the Executive Branch.

And yet this spammer Martin talks about conservatives not being activists.
To the extent that he's talking about the public rather than the
party activists and the elected and appointed officials,
conservatives today are less activist than during the Reagan/Bush 
administration
and the early Clinton administration, but the new Administration
is the most activist we've seen in ages, whether or not they
were actually elected.  One of the technologies for getting
grassroots and astroturf support that both big parties developed extensively
over the 80s/90s is the use of direct mail for fundraising and
generating letters to politicians - the conservatives
and particularly the Religious Right Wing were probably more effective
than the various sets of liberals.  This looks like an attempt to
do similar things on the net.]


At 10:29 PM 12/28/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:41:15 -0800
>From: "TheVanguard.org" 
>To: "TheVanguard.org" 
>Subject: VANGUARD: Actions Have Consequences:  or, How to Advance Your 
>Beliefs By Helping a Candidate
>
>
>
>[EDITOR'S NOTE:  In honor of the approaching election year, we take this
>opportunity to distribute the following article by Rod D. Martin, founder
>and chairman of Vanguard PAC.]
>
>==========================
>
>
>Vanguard of the Revolution
>http://www.theVanguard.org
>
>
>ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES:  or, How to
>Advance Your Beliefs By Helping a Candidate
>
>by Rod D. Martin
>) 27 March 2001
>
>
>     Conservatives forever complain about their political leaders.  But they
>don9t do a lot about it.
>
>     Liberals (or more precisely, Leftists) are quite different.  Coming as
>they do mostly from distinct interest groups possessing activist political
>cultures and a sense of victimization (be they unionized workers, civil
>rights activists, feminists or whomever), leftists grow up on a steady diet
>not only of ideas, but of the strategies and tactics necessary to win.  From
>cradle to grave, they look to the state as a sort of political savior, and
>they learn early how to get from it what they want.
>
>     By contrast, conservatives do not and never have thought in these terms.
>Generally, conservatives just want to be left alone, and see government as a
>necessary evil, nothing more.  Their lives focus elsewhere:  business,
>church, family, civic groups, almost anywhere but politics.  They see
>political activity not as a perpetual opportunity to gain advantages, but as
>an arena where (every so often) they must defend themselves from the latest
>government encroachment.
>
>     This difference in culture is staggering, and accounts for much of the
>Left9s success in the 20th Century.  Conservatives do not think politically;
>Liberals do.  And while the Left hones its strategies and tactics year after
>year - spread across millions of individual people and thousands of
>institutions - conservatives wake up periodically, notice there9s an
>election, expend a little half-hearted effort, and go back to sleep.
>
>     Because of this relative detachment, conservatives demonstrate a
>remarkably persistent naiveti.  Not only do they rarely understand the
>system (or what the Left has done and continues to do to them); they also
>subscribe year after year to the Sir Galahad theory of politics:  "our ideas
>will win because our hearts are pure."  This foolishness costs their
>movement not only elections but innumerable volunteers (and donors) every
>year, good men and women who cannot understand why their sheer rightness has
>not persuaded and conquered all.  Meanwhile, the Left marches on.
>
>     The hard truth is, however wonderful our ideas may be, it is not those
>ideas but the actions they inspire which have consequences in the real
>world.1   And all those whiney conservatives, waiting for Trent Lott (or
>whomever) to effortlessly give them their hearts9 desires, are getting
>exactly what they deserve.  The concept is as old as the Bible:  those who
>do not work, shall not eat.
>
>
>INFLUENCE AND POWER
>
>     At times almost despite themselves, conservatives over the past
>generation have come to hold tremendous influence.  They have also held some
>power.  The confusion of these concepts has lead to much needless
>consternation.
>
>     In Morton Blackwell9s words, "Power means you can make things happen.
>Influence means that those with power will return your telephone calls and
>seriously consider what you suggest. Only those with power govern."
>
>     The aim of any political movement is power, power for the purpose of
>implementing the movement9s beliefs.  All the influence in the world will
>not replace this power.  In the 1990s, many conservatives became highly
>disillusioned with their leaders, who seemed to constantly compromise.  They
>failed to understand that though Republicans held the Congress,
>conservatives were still a minority.  They had gained tremendous influence,
>but only a share of the power.  Having a seat at the table, they could
>dicker, but they could not dictate.  They needed numbers.
>
>     There9s only one way they will ever get those numbers:  they must elect
>more conservatives.  Not Republicans; conservatives.  This is no slap at the
>Republican Party:  it is simply a recognition that the two ideas are not
>synonymous, however much overlap there may be, and that if conservatives
>want that to change, they9ll have to work for that too.  Furthermore, it9s a
>statement that the party primary often matters a great deal; and that - as
>the Left has always known - the political cycle is year-round, every year.
>In that never-ending fight, it is the candidates who go out to do battle,
>who bleed and sweat and die for your beliefs.  And at the end of the day,
>they - and only they - will have a chance to make and execute the laws.
>
>     Most people will never be candidates.  At most they will only have
>influence (which is certainly not to be despised), and many won9t even have
>that.  But they can give their ideas power - and exercise a measure of power
>themselves - by working hard for a candidate who shares their views.  In
>fact, there is absolutely no more effective way than this by which the
>average person may bring about meaningful political change.
>
>
>SO WHAT CAN I DO?
>
>     The question for many, therefore, becomes:  "So what can I do?  And what
>could I possibly offer."  The answer is, "Quite a lot!"  For all the talk of
>big money in politics, the truth is that most campaigns are run on
>shoestrings, with the lion9s share of what cash there might be going to
>television ads at the very end, leaving all the real work to be done on
>almost nothing.  Nowhere is this more true than in a challenger race, where
>a (usually semi-unknown) candidate tries to make headway against everything
>the other party can throw at him, and often everything his own party can
>throw at him too (this is not a criticism:  parties shouldn9t just give away
>their nomination, after all).  This is usually your candidate (we9re trying
>to gain seats, after all):  tired, broke and pummeled from all sides.
>
>     Yes, there9s quite a lot you can do for this candidate.  Even a handful
>of truly faithful people could change his world, and the outcome of the
>election.
>
>     Speaking as a former (and future) candidate for the U.S. House, I submit
>the following items you can and should do for the standard-bearer of your
>choice.  The list is not exhaustive, but it will keep you both busy and
>effective.
>
>1.  PICK A CANDIDATE.  With all due respect to those wonderful men and women
>who yearly work in support of every candidate in sight, there remains great
>wisdom in Christ9s words that no one can serve two masters.  The average
>volunteer has neither time nor mental energy for more than one race, at
>least not beyond a superficial level.  Hence, if you don9t pick one
>candidate on whom to focus, you will do a bad job for everyone, and advance
>the cause very little.
>
>     Picking a candidate is a matter of taste:  who excites you, who believes
>most like you, who is running for an office you care about, who is running
>against someone you really want defeated.  The issue is not whether you
>throw yourself wholeheartedly into a campaign for Congress or for Justice of
>the Peace; rather, the issue is whether you pick one and follow through.
>
>     Finally, make your choice early and stick like glue.  The early phases
>of a campaign are generally its most tenuous, with limited support, little
>or no money, and the most overwhelming task of all:  getting noticed and
>breaking out of the pack.  Likewise, later on, the campaign will certainly
>face any number of challenges, from run-away success (which often leads to
>complacency and defeat) to persistently low polling numbers (which are often
>misleading, but run away crucial support) to crippling allegations (which
>may or may not be true) to internal incompetence or strife among the
>volunteers or staff.  Murphy9s Law was specifically written for political
>campaigns, and you need to be there through thick and thin, working like
>everything depended on you.  When the smoke clears, and hordes of others
>have fallen away, it may just turn out that everything did.
>
>2.  PICK THE RIGHT CANDIDATE.  Since you9re going to be working so hard and
>so long for this person, you really need to pick well from the start.
>Again, this is a matter of taste; and yet most conservatives have very
>specific ideological views they want their candidates to share, and insofar
>as possible this should be determined up front.
>
>     This is not to say that the candidate owes you limitless time; neither
>is it to say that you have a right to treat him rudely or "examine" him like
>a professor.  But if he9s written extensively (and some candidates have),
>read what he9s written.  Call him on the phone or email him:  some
>candidates respond very well to this.  If he9s reasonably accessible, feel
>free to ask him to dinner (and buy his dinner:  he9s broke.  He9s giving up
>all his time, income and personal savings to work around the clock for you).
>Don9t get offended if he9s not available, either (and expect to be passed to
>a scheduler):  he has a family, possibly a job, and literally thousands if
>not millions of other people also seeking his time.  If worse comes to
>worst, you can usually speak with him at or after political meetings or
>speeches.
>
>     But somehow, get to know him, not necessarily like you know your best
>friend, but well enough to determine whether you think he9s a good guy,
>whether you trust him, and whether you want to see him win.  When the chips
>are down, these feelings and impressions may make the difference between
>victory and defeat.
>
>3.  CUT HIM SOME SLACK.  Once you9ve picked him, remember that the candidate
>is human, just like you.  You make mistakes, you sometimes fail to think
>before you speak, you don9t always know everything about everything, and
>every now and then you do something really wrong.  So does your candidate.
>Take it for granted.
>
>     Now admittedly, if the candidate turns out to be an axe-murderer, you
>might want to re-think your support.  But short of that, it9s important to
>be very realistic:  just as when you married, you picked this guy for better
>or worse, and you know on the front end he9s going to have unseen warts.
>Bailing at the first sign of trouble - or at the first policy disagreement -
>is not only bad form, it9s cowardly.  And if you9re looking for a candidate
>who perfectly reflects your own views, go run yourself.
>
>     Now of course, you may certainly seek to educate your candidate:  maybe
>he just doesn9t understand, or hasn9t ever thought about what you believe,
>or is getting bad advice.  Look for an opportunity to politely, concisely
>and effectively present your side.  But don9t take it personally if you fail
>to convince him:  you may well do so later, and even if you don9t, if you
>picked him in the first place, chances are that disagreements on one or two
>issues are nothing compared to all the things about which you agree.
>
>     4.  GIVE MONEY, EVEN IF IT9S ONLY A LITTLE.  No matter what you can or
>cannot give, this matters, more than you know.  And the earlier you give,
>the more it matters.
>
>     Everyone knows that campaigns run on money; what they don9t always grasp
>is that a successful candidate must spend at least half his time just
>raising that cash.  Challengers have a special problem, in that the people
>who can most help them judge their viability by how much they raise early,
>and from how many different donors they raise it.  Your $25 check is a vital
>part of building the support your candidate needs from so-called "major
>donors", from the party committees in Washington, from potential endorsers,
>and from the media.  It will also buy about 167 desperately-needed bulk-rate
>stamps.
>
>     Obviously, it is essential that you give as much as you can.  Far fewer
>people are giving than you think, and your candidate is spending enormous
>time (and money) reaching them.  Your early help will make his work easier,
>more effective, and more concentrated on actual campaigning.  Oh, and one
>other thing:  if a candidate tells you he9s in a financial crisis, don9t
>just assume it9s a sales pitch.  It9s almost always true.
>
>5.  LET THE CAMPAIGN KNOW YOU9RE AVAILABLE, AND FIND OUT WHAT IT NEEDS.  As
>important as money is, nothing you can give is so valuable as your time; and
>the campaign could never pay enough people to replace its better volunteers.
>Be one.
>
>     How do you do this?  Call the campaign and let them know you want to
>help.  Below I will give some specific ideas which you should offer (the
>campaign does not always know what it needs, since it9s almost always
>understaffed and under-funded); however, you should also make yourself
>generally available, and be open to the specific requests the campaign may
>make.
>
>     Who do I mean when I say "the campaign"?  There9s no one answer.  It
>could be a campaign manager, a volunteer coordinator, a scheduler, the
>candidate himself, or any number of other people.  And it may well shift
>from week to week.
>
>     Don9t let this daunt you.  Just go with the flow, and be patient.  If
>you9ve offered yourself and the campaign hasn9t gotten back with you,
>politely offer again, and again:  chances are, you9ve gotten lost in an
>almost impossible shuffle (and if you have time and organization ability,
>this may be your cue to volunteer as an office manager).  Don9t be foolishly
>offended by the chaos that characterizes every campaign.  Instead, view it
>as an opportunity to make a desperately needed difference.
>
>6.  HOST AN EVENT.  More than anything else, candidates need exposure and
>money.  Kill two birds with one stone and host a coffee (or something
>bigger).
>
>     Nothing is as important as these events, whereby you bring your
>candidate and your friends together.  The friends will come for your sake;
>the candidate will gain credibility with them because of you; and if you
>pass the plate, you9ll raise some money, all for the cost of some Folger9s.
>
>     Many successful candidates learn to book three to five of these a day,
>which should tell you how vital they are, and which should also tell you how
>many people are going to have to agree to host them.  Don9t wait to be
>asked:  volunteer early, and often.
>
>7.  MAKE PHONE CALLS.  Phone banks cost a lot of money, but are a
>phenomenally effective tool, for polling, fundraising, getting out the vote
>and a thousand other things.  You can save the campaign tons of cash by
>being a phone volunteer.  It9s not the most pleasant work you9ll ever do,
>but it can be very rewarding, and is vital to the effort.  Make sure the
>campaign provides you a script, and practice it a few times before you start
>your calls.
>
>     Separately, you can and should use your phone to help the campaign in a
>very obvious and simple way:  talk to your friends about how wonderful your
>candidate is, and how proud of him you are.  This sort of casual,
>day-in-day-out effort - no different from talking about how excited you are
>about your favorite team - is the stuff of great victories.  When people
>start talking like this, a certain "win psychology" develops, and real
>momentum builds:  momentum money could never buy.
>
>8.  USE EMAIL EFFECTIVELY.  At least as powerful as personal phone calls,
>personal emails to friends are taking a greater and greater role in
>campaigns.  Spread the word to your friends, by forwarding campaign emails,
>news stories, and your own personal thoughts to your personal address book.
>You send all those people lame jokes:  why not the good news about your
>candidate (and your worldview)?
>
>     Moreover, it may be that you are specially talented with email or the
>web and wish to help in a more formal way.  Most campaigns need quality
>people who can create and maintain an online presence, be it a website, an
>email list, a chat room, or a prayer team (and just for the record, no one
>has used the internet more effectively than Pat Buchanan9s Linda Muller,
>with Jesse Ventura9s team running a close second).  If you9d like to help
>this way, you9re needed.
>
>9.  WRITE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR.  Everyone talks about this, but no one does
>it.  No one except winning campaigns, that is.
>
>     The truth is, everyone reads the letters to the editor, and much of the
>word-of-mouth side of the campaign develops there.  What9s more, this is
>absolutely free media, and being from "regular" people, it is far more
>persuasive than a campaign news release (which few ever see anyway).
>
>     A smart campaign will organize a large number of people to regularly
>write letters to the editor, and mail them to all the local papers.  Don9t
>wait to be contacted:  call the campaign yourself, preferably the press
>secretary.  If possible, write about the message the campaign is focused on
>that week.  And if you9re a good writer, find some of your friends who would
>be willing to sign a letter but are afraid to actually write one, and draft
>letters for them as well (be sure to collect them and mail them too:  people
>promise, but often forget).
>
>10.  STUFF ENVELOPES!  No part of the campaign is so important, especially
>in an under-funded race where most or all of the direct mail has to be done
>in-house.  At the same time, stuffing and addressing envelopes is some of
>the most tedious work you can do, and people hate it.  It9s not sexy, and
>it9s not fun.  Volunteers tend to flee.  You can not only make an enormous
>difference but prove your value and loyalty as well by always being
>available for this duty.  You can often save the campaign hundreds or
>thousands of dollars through your work, and candidates remember their
>envelope stuffers more fondly than anyone else (very important later when
>you want to "educate" them on the issues).
>
>11.  HELP WITH THE SIGN EFFORT.  Obviously a crucial part of the campaign9s
>advertising, the need is not so much for you to put up a sign in your own
>yard (which of course you should do), but to help put signs up all over your
>candidate9s district.  Ideally, your candidate will want to put a sign in
>every available yard, all on the same night.  Anything you can do to find
>willing property owners or physically put up signs will make a huge
>difference.
>
>12.  GET OUT THE VOTE.  Conservative candidates have an alarming tendency to
>run winning campaigns, only to lose on election day.  This is because the
>Left is extremely effective at getting out their voters, while we generally
>are not.  One reason for that effectiveness is that Left-leaning labor
>unions teach and encourage get-out-the-vote (GOTV) efforts.  Conservatives
>have no similar resource.
>
>     Talk to the campaign about what you can do.  Hopefully, they will have a
>carefully laid out plan, which will probably include early canvassing, an
>absentee ballot effort, poll watching, phone banks, and any number of other
>things.  Be flexible and pitch in.  If you don9t, you may throw away a
>couple years9 work.
>
>13.  PRAY FOR AND ENCOURAGE THE CANDIDATE.  As noted at the outset of the
>article, conservatives complain a lot, and never more than in a campaign.
>But campaigns run on morale, and complaints are among the most
>self-destructive things under Heaven.  And it9s not just the other campaign
>workers and volunteers who need a lift:  it9s the candidate himself.
>
>     The candidate - if he9s worth supporting - is killing himself.  You may
>at times think he9s arrogant, and sometimes he may be; but he runs on
>adrenaline and supports himself with brave words that rarely resemble his
>fears, and from early in the morning till late at night, he has to sell a
>million skeptics - from CEOs to coffee shop clerks - on himself as a person
>and his ideas as a program.  He is the ultimate "man in the arena", facing
>every manner of outrageous attack and betrayal every day, working himself to
>the bone, trying to juggle finances and family and every aspect of this
>small industry the product of which is himself, all in pursuit of a goal far
>greater than he.  The smallest word of encouragement at the right moment can
>be that one thing which allows him to go on.  In point of fact, it often is.
>
>     Likewise, no one needs your prayers more than your candidate and his
>family.  The Bible clearly commands prayer for our leaders, but most people
>forget to do it.  You mustn9t.  He needs you.  And more than anything, he
>needs the grace of God.
>
>14.  UNDERSTAND THAT WINNING ISN9T EVERYTHING.  Finally, it9s well worth
>remembering that most candidates lose, and often lose several times, before
>they win.  This dispirits lots of volunteers (and even more candidates), but
>it shouldn9t:  it9s just the way of the world.  The early races are often
>learning experiences and opportunities to build an organization and the
>candidate9s name ID.  This is a good thing, no matter how much more fun it
>might be to win every time.
>
>     The wise volunteer will work as though victory is just a matter of doing
>that one additional thing within his power; but he9ll also know when to take
>his co-workers and his candidate aside, place his hand on their shoulder,
>and tell them it9s all going to be okay, we9ll get em next time.  That wise
>volunteer will also follow through on his words, and stay the course for
>round two.  Few decent candidates come out of a well-fought but losing race
>weaker; most are in a better position than they9ve ever been in their life,
>if they9ll learn from their mistakes and move on.  You can be the person who
>gives them the strength to do it.  And in so doing, you will advance your
>cause concretely, genuinely doing the hard work of freedom.
>
>
>---------------------------
>
>NOTE
>
>1.  Needless to say for those who have actually read him, Richard Weaver -
>whose Ideas Have Consequences has in its title lead many astray at this
>point - understood this perfectly; and his short but powerful book remains
>one of the truly essential works of conservatism.
>
>PURCHASE RICHARD WEAVER'S EXTRAORDINARY "IDEAS HAVE CONSEQUENCES":
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0226876802/vanguardoftherev/
>
>---------------------------
>
>
>
>
>-- Rod D. Martin is Founder and Chairman of Vanguard PAC.  A
>former policy director to Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, he
>is an attorney and writer from Little Rock, Arkansas, and a
>past candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives.
>
>================================================================
>
>To subscribe to "Vanguard of the Revolution", send the message
>"Subscribe Vanguard", or the message "Unsubscribe Vanguard" to
>unsubscribe, to listadmin at theVanguard.org.
>
>Contact listowner at theVanguard.org if you have questions.
>
>================================================================
>
>http://www.theVanguard.org
>Vanguard at theVanguard.org
>
>Vanguard PAC
>P. O. Box 250038
>Little Rock, AR 72225
>
>================================================================





From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Fri Dec 28 18:00:16 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 03:00:16 +0100
Subject: Afghans Demand End to Bombing
Message-ID: <566afd13dfd02a6cabd40c24833ed2c6@mix.winterorbit.com>


   Heard on the news tonight that the "interim Afghan government" was
demanding an end to the bombing in 3 days, and that all troops
leave in 6 months. Some US general asshole then announced from
Dubbya's ranch in Texass that "we will decide when we'll stop
bombing, and nobody else" and Dubbya says the troops will be
there for a long time. 
  I love it -- won't it be fun when the Afghans all start 
killing Yanks? Anybody want to bet on how long it will
be before the first Americans are killed by non-Taliban 
Afghans? 




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Dec 29 03:19:48 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 03:19:48 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <30add788b41765778799c77b220412f5@cypherpunks.to>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229031408.031b3540@idiom.com>


[Various discussion about spammers using crypto to use remailers.
There's not much, but it's there.  Encrypted-Outgoing-Only
reduces the problem a lot, since there aren't many people who'll
positively respond to encrypted spam :-) ]

At 08:15 PM 12/19/2001 +0100, Anonymous replied to Peter Trei:
> > One solution, which I've long advocated, is for the remailer to drop
> > mail which has an unencrypted body after it's applied it's decryption key.
> >
> > Provided this is an announced policy, substantially increases the
> > protection of the mail and the remop. It does mean that only people
> > capable of using encryption can receive mail via the remailer, but
> > that's probably a *good* thing.
>
>No, that is a terrible idea. It totally destroys the usefulness of
>remailers on Usenet and mailing lists.

Obviously there are some destinations that need to be exceptions.
Usenet's easy - keep track of known mail2news gateways,
and any time you send mail to Usenet, you need to put lots of disclaimers
about it's remailed, it's probably forged, there's no way to reply, etc.

Mailing lists are tougher, because you obviously can't keep a list of them.

Another way to deal with unencrypted outgoing message is to send mail
saying "we've received an anonymous message for you.  You can pick it up
at https://myremailer.com/tempoutgoing/msg124354.txt within 7 days."
or some such.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Dec 29 03:27:12 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 03:27:12 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229032021.031b3400@idiom.com>


At 09:01 PM 12/17/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:
> > and sends the contents on to the next address (yes, this type of remailer
> > does not include nice features such as cover traffic).
>
>And it can't encrypt that outgoing traffic since it doesn't have the key
>to the destination (I assume the user must nest these themselves).

Yes, the user must nest those himself.  If he doesn't like doing it by hand,
there are client programs that can do this automagically.

The only way to get security is for the originator to do the encryption -
otherwise, if ANY remailer in the chain is compromised,
the Bad Guys can read the message.  If the originator does the crypto,
then EVERY remailer in the chain has to be compromised to break it.

>The sender having to know all the steps is a major threat to the standard
>remailer model. In fact it's one of the major shorcomings with the current
>approaches. The sender should at most be able to set the number of
>remailers, not which ones. That way there's on evidence sitting around on
>their machines (and you can posit throwing the keys away each time - but
>then you have to go out and get them again...and around and around we go).

The remailer-stats pingers publish this information on web pages;
you can retrieve it and read it by hand, or use a client program to fetch it.
If you don't want to keep it, don't.
And some of the clients are web pages themselves (Javascript or whatever),
so you can just retrieve them.

And obviously the sender needs to be able to pick the remailers to use -
depending on the type of message, some messages need to be sent through
remailers in appropriately safe jurisdictions, other messages don't
need much security but need high reliability or high speed
(so you want to pick remailers with good stats.)




From nobody at paranoici.org  Fri Dec 28 18:38:11 2001
From: nobody at paranoici.org (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 03:38:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Las Vegas spore hub
Message-ID: <9c97344b908e2a93b727e77cf8fd364d@paranoici.org>


Members of the 11Sept2001 sleeper cells visited Las Vegas. Among
the many interesting points about Las Vegas are the large numbers of tourists that stay in a very small number of
facilities. Anthrax or some other biological warfare (BW) agent delivered to the casino/hotel systems (through air
circulation systems, HVAC) would expose tens of thousands at a time; most of those individuals would enter the mass
transportation systems (airports, aircraft, trains, buses), spreading the infectious agent/infection, and arriving back at
their home destinations before common incubation periods would become an issue. Yes, the CDC is prepared to deliver
'push-packages' to cities in the U.S., but could it handle tens of thousands of possible cases throughout the entire U.S.
and the world? Could airports and aircraft be decontaminated effectively? The 'test cases' of anthrax through the U.S.
postal system expose the frightening potential of BW agents--the spores persist, travel, and are a trickier problem than
thought. Even with few fatalities, the mass transportation systems of the U.S. would come to a crashing halt.] 

http://www.metatempo.com/analysis-alqaida-tradecraft.html




From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Fri Dec 28 18:45:04 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 03:45:04 +0100
Subject: NTBugtraq author says virus authors "terrorists"
Message-ID: <8490a41f6f24f88fc7073e028f904eed@mix.winterorbit.com>


"We need to do this, if for no other reason than to show it's possible (to track virus writers)," Russ Cooper,
editor of security news list NTBugtraq, said. 

Forget that it may be problematic to extradite the individual, or that they may be young, or claim to be
doing 'research.' We need to catch them, and place them in a position whereby they are seen for what
they are -- a terrorist," Cooper said. "The cost to our businesses, not to mention our way of life, is simply
too high to not pursue these individuals." 

http://wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313-2,00.html




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Dec 29 07:31:09 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 07:31:09 -0800
Subject: cell phone guns
In-Reply-To: <20011228151653.A14034@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011229073109.007f0100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 03:16 PM 12/28/01 -0800, Eric Murray wrote:
>22 caliber four-shot pistol hidden inside a cell phone, uncovered
>during police raids in Europe.
>
>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/phone001205.html
>
>"Cell phone users will have to be made aware that reaching for their
>phones in some circumstances could be misinterpreted as a threat by
>authorities"

FWIW Old news.  The yugos were said to have this, a picture was
published, over 6 months ago.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Dec 29 07:33:10 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 07:33:10 -0800
Subject: cell phone guns 
In-Reply-To: <200112282354.SAA24800@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:54 PM 12/28/01 -0500, Faustine wrote:
>
>Not surprising, since cell phone holster decoys have been around for ages.
>Why settle for a .22 when you could be packing a Glock 30?
>Like this...

Better stealth.

I like the NAA .22 belt buckle.  Can also fit inside a beeper case.

Mossad prefers suppressed Berretta .22 which doesn't need racking.




From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Sat Dec 29 06:23:57 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 08:23:57 -0600
Subject: Afghans Demand End to Bombing
References: 
Message-ID: <001001c19074$73fe5b60$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


I read several articles and had not seen those... All I asked for was a
reference... Thanks for POINTING out that you can find it... Just WANTED THE
PERSON saying it to also GIVE HIS REFERENCES when he makes he satements...

Jon Beets

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim May" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: Afghans Demand End to Bombing


> On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 09:16 PM, Jon Beets wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Anonymous" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:00 PM
> > Subject: Afghans Demand End to Bombing
> >
> >
> >>    Heard on the news tonight that the "interim Afghan government" was
> >> demanding an end to the bombing in 3 days, and that all troops
> >> leave in 6 months.
> >
> > Can you show a reference to this?  Everything I read today said tribal
> > leaders from the Paktia province were wanting the bombing to stop... I
> > read
> > nothing about the interim government stating it...
>
> It took me less than a minute to retrieve several articles with quotes
> from members of the interim government. Here's just one of them:
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011228/ts/attack_dc_1192.html
>
> If you challenge someone to "show a reference to this" you should have
> at least spent a minute looking.
>
> >
> > Again I still hav'nt seen a reference where Bush stated our troops will
> > be
> > there for a long time.. He did say the war on terrorism will last a long
> > time but where did he explicitly say they would be in Afghanistan for
> > along
> > time?....
>
> You haven't seen a reference? Then you haven't looked, have you?
>
> It took me another 30 seconds to find this (though I remembered it from
> seeing Bush's comments today in Crawford):
>
> "With operational commander Gen. Tommy Franks at his side at his
> Crawford, Texas, ranch, Bush said he expected U.S. forces to remain in
> Afghanistan ``for quite a long period of time.''"
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011228/ts/attack_dc_1196.html
>
> --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
> " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood
> of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Dec 29 08:35:28 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 08:35:28 -0800
Subject: brinworld, sexchart
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011229083528.007e1c50@pop.sprynet.com>


Wired interview with creator of sexchart
http://wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,48997,00.html

The graph: 
http://www.attrition.org/hosted/sexchart/sexchart.9.25

Relevence to Brin's _Transparent Society_ etc should be obvious.




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Dec 29 09:20:37 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:20:37 -0800
Subject: VANGUARD: Actions Have Consequences:  or, How to Advance
  Your Beliefs By Helping a Candidate (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229021112.0332a120@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <603A427D-FC80-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, December 29, 2001, at 02:20 AM, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Jim, I'm really surprised that you forwarded this spam to the list.
>>

I'm not surprised that Choate did this.

However, Bill, I _am_ surprised that you top-posted and included the 
entire long spam article in your reply here.

(I have snipped it.)




--Tim May
"Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David 
Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11




From tcmay at got.net  Sat Dec 29 09:27:15 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:27:15 -0800
Subject: The idiocy of Choate
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229032021.031b3400@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <4D18EAF7-FC81-11D5-A90A-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, December 29, 2001, at 03:27 AM, Bill Stewart wrote:

> At 09:01 PM 12/17/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> The sender having to know all the steps is a major threat to the 
>> standard
>> remailer model. In fact it's one of the major shorcomings with the 
>> current
>> approaches. The sender should at most be able to set the number of
>> remailers, not which ones. That way there's on evidence sitting around 
>> on
>> their machines (and you can posit throwing the keys away each time - 
>> but
>> then you have to go out and get them again...and around and around we 
>> go).
>
> The remailer-stats pingers publish this information on web pages;
> you can retrieve it and read it by hand, or use a client program to 
> fetch it.
> If you don't want to keep it, don't.
> And some of the clients are web pages themselves (Javascript or 
> whatever),
> so you can just retrieve them.


As others have remarked, Choate simply has no clue how even the 
Cypherpunks remailers of 1992 work(ed).

That he thinks "having to know all the steps" is a bad idea tells me he 
is just too clueless to have ever been taken seriously, even for a few 
months, here on this list.

An old girlfriend of mine grasped the idea of envelopes-within-envelopes 
and how the security of the remailer chain depended on the sender 
deciding on a list of intermediate steps and then encrypting each nested 
envelope appropriately.

"The sender should at most be able to set the number of remailers, not 
which ones. " is one of the stupidest comments I have ever seen on this 
list.

This has been Cypherpunks kindergarten material for a decade (and many 
of us knew it years earlier).

--Tim May



>
> And obviously the sender needs to be able to pick the remailers to use -
> depending on the type of message, some messages need to be sent through
> remailers in appropriately safe jurisdictions, other messages don't
> need much security but need high reliability or high speed
> (so you want to pick remailers with good stats.)
>
>
--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Dec 29 07:51:11 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:51:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: VANGUARD: Actions Have Consequences:  or, How to Advance  Your Beliefs By Helping a Candidate (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229021112.0332a120@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Jim, I'm really surprised that you forwarded this spam to the list.
> I received it directly also.

La di da...

> While he does have some useful comments about political organizing,

So it wasn't a total spam after all, you're just upset by his commentary.

> some of what he says about liberal/conservative differences is a pure crock.

The same can be said about you or I, silly.

> We're in the middle of a radically activist right-wing statist 
> administration -

Bullshit. This is standard spin doctor bullshit. The differences between
'right' and 'left' are in your imagination. Both sides want to be THE
side, that's the ONLY factor worth focusing on. 'How' isn't that
important.

> they're doing far more than the Reaganites ever accomplished as far as

The 'Reaganites' accomplished nothing, other than taking credit (and
getting it) for things that would have generaly happened along the same
lines anyway. You, and most others, give 'them' way too much power over
what happens. Quit acting like a victim.

> building up the political power of the military, reducing civil liberties for
> citizens as well as non-citizen residents and travelers, strengthening the 
> police agencies, and moving power away from Congress and into the
> Executive Branch.

Condemnations equally applicable to Republican, Democratic, Green, or
Libertarian (and any others you generaly want to add to that list).
 
At least it got you off your ass.

Happy New Year.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Dec 29 08:02:22 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:02:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229032021.031b3400@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> > At 09:01 PM 12/17/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:

> The only way to get security is for the originator to do the encryption -
> otherwise, if ANY remailer in the chain is compromised,

Actually this isn't the 'only' way. ALL (!!!) that is required to keep the
security of the email traffic is that it is source encrypted for the
destination; it's gibberish to all middle-men. What the remailer chain
does is break the causal connectivity, it provides plausible deniability.

Now, with respect to middle man routing, if each middle man routes to
another layer randomly then it addresses the exact issues of a 'turned'
remailer. In addition, with the current 'ad hoc' key management mechanism
getting intermediate keys isn't that hard (just pose as a remailer
operator and they'll gush into your keyring). A solution to this problem,
that you won't accept but 'oh well', is to create the network using 'small
world' approaches so that the remailers have a 'back channel' to
continously validate the 'reputation' of the next stage remailers (ie ala 
'igor') while at the same time not even knowing what other remailers out
there might exist in the 'remailer cloud' (and more importantly not
caring).

This approach has a couple of additional advantage; it doesn't require the
user to understand some hard to comprehend syntax for the remailers, and
it doesn't require the user to keep all this evidence around a priori to
their actual use of the remailer chain (ie they don't have to d/l a key
from anywhere mecessarily) - traffic analysis.

> the Bad Guys can read the message.

At no point can anyone other than the recipient 'read the message', unless
it was sent in the 'clear' in the first place (silly thing to do).

> If the originator does the crypto,
> then EVERY remailer in the chain has to be compromised to break it.

ROTFLMAO. ONLY(!!!) if the source didn't destination encrypt to begin
with. A critical step you seem to not quite 'get'.

[other 'stuff' deleted]


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com  Sat Dec 29 01:12:55 2001
From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:12:55 +0100
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
References: <3.0.6.32.20011228230920.01472770@mail.plus.at>
Message-ID: <004d01c19049$1b1ecbe0$1ba1fea9@chincilla>


GSM cell phones with crypto options.

Some months ago, I have looked at for a model developed by SIEMENS in
collaboration with a small new company. Pushing a key, and  ..... it is all.

But I do not have additional info at present. I will try to have more
because also of my interest.

Ciao

Pier Carlo Montecucchi


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Kuhm" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: CDR: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?


>
> At 16:01 28.12.01 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
>
> >Are there any existing, available US type
> >GSM cell phones which provide good
> >end-to-end  voice encryption (ie, something
> >better than the broken GSM crypto).
>
> don't know, but you may have a look at
>

>
> Rohde & Schwarz  upgrades
> a standard SIEMENS S35i with a cryptochip.
>
> According to a article in German language it costs appr. EUR 2,300.--
> and they should have sold already 500 pcs to governments.
> 
>
> Peter
>
>





From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Dec 29 10:32:28 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:32:28 -0800
Subject: [fsml] Euro Banknotes embed RFID chips (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229102145.00b00470@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 01:52 AM 12/29/2001 +0100, Eugene Leitl wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 00:36:31 -0000
>From: Andrew Hennessey 
>To: fsml at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [fsml] Euro Banknotes embed RFID chips
>
>http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011219S0016
>
>
>
>Euro bank notes to embed RFID chips by 2005
>
>By Junko Yoshida
>EE Times
>(12/19/01, 3:03 p.m. EST)
>
>SAN MATEO, Calif. - The European Central Bank is working with technology
>partners on a hush-hush project to embed radio frequency identification tags
>into the very fibers of euro bank notes by 2005, EE Times has learned.
>Intended to foil counterfeiters, the project is developing as Europe
>prepares for a massive changeover to the euro, and would create an instant
>mass market for RFID chips, which have long sought profitable application.
>
>The banking community and chip suppliers say the integration of an RFID
>antenna and chip on a bank note is technically possible, but no bank notes
>in the world today employ such a technology. Critics say it's unclear if the
>technology can be implemented at a cost that can justify the effort, and
>question whether it is robust enough to survive the rough-and-tumble life
>span of paper money.

Not to mention intentional Electro-Magnetic Pulse exposure of bills to 
thwart the system.

A cheaper and more robust solution would embed random length and oriented 
glass/plastic fibers in the paper.  When exposed to a line illuminator as 
it is passed through a verifier, each bill would have a unique "illuminate 
here" - "light comes out there" signature that can be read out and matched 
to a DB generated at the mint.  Because of the fiber's resilience it will 
be more difficult to damage or thwart than RFIDs.

steve




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sat Dec 29 08:33:13 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:33:13 -0600
Subject: The Register - Stealth copy protection - where we are now
Message-ID: <3C2DF049.F91F0608@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/23516.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From wolf at priori.net  Sat Dec 29 11:39:35 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:39:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229031408.031b3540@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Obviously there are some destinations that need to be exceptions.
> Usenet's easy - keep track of known mail2news gateways,
> and any time you send mail to Usenet, you need to put lots of disclaimers
> about it's remailed, it's probably forged, there's no way to reply, etc.

Certainly wise, though not popular with the remailer users (see the
thread on alt.privacy.anon-server discussing the recent switch by one of
the most popular mail2news gateways to this type of system, where a
disclaimer is placed at the top of the message.) The simple truth is that
the average user can't be expected to look at mail or news headers,
though, so you need to place such things in the body.

> Mailing lists are tougher, because you obviously can't keep a list of them.

What about an "opt-in" service for mailing list admins?

> Another way to deal with unencrypted outgoing message is to send mail
> saying "we've received an anonymous message for you.  You can pick it up
> at https://myremailer.com/tempoutgoing/msg124354.txt within 7 days."
> or some such.

I've thought about this before. I was concerned about the potential risks
of keeping the messages in an identifiable manner on the remailer
server... but if everything is encrypted, it wouldn't matter.

Unfortunately, requiring everything be encrypted also limits the
whistle-blower, anonymous tipster applications of these systems.
Additionally, it would be nice if the major PGP implementations supported
the "stealth encryption" features, too. (Yes, there's ways to make do
without it...)

-MW-




From DRenck1042 at aol.com  Sat Dec 29 08:40:17 2001
From: DRenck1042 at aol.com (DRenck1042 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:40:17 EST
Subject: yes I would like to make my own DVDs
Message-ID: <157.679a3e8.295f4bf1@aol.com>


what do I do?

Drenck1042 at aol.com

Who do I pay?




From ryan at havenco.com  Sat Dec 29 03:56:01 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:56:01 +0000
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
Message-ID: <20011229115601.GA8712@atreides.havenco.com>


I'm unclear why Lucky dislikes the Sectra Tiger (www.sectra.se); the
key management is not what I'd like, but seems designed specifically
for hierarchical military or corporate organizations, which is the only viable
market for a EUR 2500 encrypting cellphone.

I think the most cost-effective voice crypto solution today is a
bluetooth-enabled cellphone, a bluetooth-enabled PocketPC (ipaq) with
fast ARM, and then conventional encrypted-voice software (such as
speak-freely) running over PPP over bluetooth.  It would be fairly
easy to develop a belt or briefcase cellphone, handheld PDA with audio
I/O via headset worn on the belt or held in the hand (or, using an
Ericsson headset, stored in a briefcase as well), .  System cost USD
1000 or less, entirely COTS consumer hardware and open-source
software, and you get a free normal GSM cellphone, high-spec PDA
(==ecash terminal), and equivalent ease of use to the very best
cellphone (as you would be using a headset, carrying the phone and
processor separately).  If you're concerned about rf monitoring on the
local bluetooth side, you could substitute a wired headset/microphone;
if you're concerned about the general unavailability of
bluetooth-enabled fast PDAs, you could with an ease of use penalty use
IrDA.

I don't believe a dragonball could do viable voice crypto (especially
compression), at least without a coprocessor card, but perhaps it
could, and it certainly could support encrypted SMS.

You could possibly use your own non-standard link protocol, vs. PPP,
if you are concerned about latency, but it should be relatively easy
to achieve 100-200ms latency on cell to cell communications.   

The benefit of using software which exists on general purpose machines
and TCP/IP over the link is of course that normal desktops could be
used as secure phone terminals as well, and 

I think there really isn't much demand for voice crypto in the
marketplace, outside the military and defense-mandated commercial
contractor use.  When audio I/O-enabled PDAs, bluetooth cellphones,
etc. are widely deployed, perhaps this will change (plus, bluetooth or
802.11b PDAs could serve as cordless phones with IP-IP or VoIP calling
when in range of a legitimate or borrowed network).

I've used speak-freely on a unix laptop for years, using IP transport
of opportunity, and with a good headset/microphone, it seems to meet
my needs for secure voice.

The other reason for using PPP-Voice is to abuse cell providers; in
the UK, for instance, I have a GBP 75/month unlimited-calling phone
(UK numbers); I could easily use this to dial in to a UK-based phone
with HSCSD and a fast IP connection at 14.4kbps, and then use IP-IP or
a VoIP bridge to get cheaper or free international calling; encrypted
by default to the gateway, and possibly to the other end if supported.

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sat Dec 29 03:21:03 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:21:03 +0100 (CET)
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20011229114639.D89782-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>


On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Are there any existing, available US type
> GSM cell phones which provide good
> end-to-end  voice encryption (ie, something
> better than the broken GSM crypto).

Not to my knowledge. As for European-manufactured phones, the
best-known such phone is probably the German Rhode & Schwarz TopSec
handset. Rhode & Schwarz is of course the same company that sells a DEM
300,000 IMSI catcher targetted at the domestic German market and
an outbound-call-only GSM interception station for "export-only"
applications. The customer may wish to take the conflicting interests of
the manufacturer into account when making a purchasing decision.

The other well-known end-to-end encrypting phone is the Swedish Tiger
product initially designed for the Swedish military market. Having
participated in architectural discussions with the designers of the
device, I would recommend against its purchase.

In summary, at present trustworthy end-to-end encrypting GSM handsets are
not available in the market place.


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sat Dec 29 05:56:16 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:56:16 +0100 (MET)
Subject: NTBugtraq author says virus authors "terrorists"
In-Reply-To: <8490a41f6f24f88fc7073e028f904eed@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> Forget that it may be problematic to extradite the individual, or that
> they may be young, or claim to be doing 'research.' We need to catch
> them, and place them in a position whereby they are seen for what they
> are -- a terrorist," Cooper said. "The cost to our businesses, not to
> mention our way of life, is simply too high to not pursue these
> individuals."

Of course the chiefest terrorists are purveyors of low-quality software
such as Microsoft. MS Outlook and Windows are the greatest threats to your
data, far beyond what the most heinous virus/worm could ever hope to
accomplish.

In a world of diverse, secure, noncommercial systems (free *nices) there
would be basically no worms nor viruses, and the damage they'd be doing
would be highly limited.

Ceterum censeo Microsoftem delendam esse.




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sat Dec 29 15:13:15 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:13:15 -0800
Subject: Fun with bleach and nail polish remover
Message-ID: <200112292313.fBTNDFf72751@mailserver2a.hushmail.com>


At 11:29 PM 12/29/2001 +0100, Anonynmous wrote:
>You will need 30% Hydrogen Peroxide (6% will give you a rather poor yield). Now to get the 30% Hydrogen Peroxide, go to
your local hospital chemist. 30% will never be sold to someone for their hair so don't try that story, so spin a story that the
Peroxide is to clean a wound as it is a great disinfectant (diluted of course).

If you have trouble finding concentrated H2O2 you can distill your own from dilute sources.  http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/Reports/Stills_199x.html 




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Sat Dec 29 15:38:43 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:38:43 -0800
Subject: Violating the Constitution with Impunity
Message-ID: <200112292338.fBTNchm75157@mailserver2a.hushmail.com>


A recent speech by former FCC Commissioner Harold Furchtgott-Roth is rather refreshing. A key quote.

"Today, when the federal government violates the constitution including the First Amendment, we mostly find silence from the media."

http://www.aei.org/sp/sp111601b.htm

There is little doubt that much that we have taken for granted in the United States has changed in the past two months.  Our feeling of security, our confidence in the safety of public facilities, and our general sense of well-being have all been shaken. 

The poignant question is raised about whether the First Amendment—particularly the speech provision--has changed, or perhaps whether the government’s interpretation of it has changed.  I have some good news.  The words of the First Amendment are the same today as they were two months ago, or two years ago, or two decades ago, or two centuries ago. 

But I also have some bad news.  The First Amendment has been violated many times in the past two centuries.  As Floyd Abrams noted earlier this morning, many of our greatest national leaders have taken great liberties in curtailing the First Amendment, particularly in times of crisis.  And it is not just our great leaders, and it is not only in times of crisis, that the First Amendment has been violated.  The constitution itself, and the First Amendment in particular, are violated frequently. 

Moreover, those who violate the constitution are rarely held accountable.  Public servants largely have immunity for liability in their performance of their public functions.  But, when it comes to the constitution, that immunity often turns into impunity, a veritable license to violate at will.  Aside from occasional public disapprobation, there is no penalty for violating the Constitution generally or the First Amendment in particular.  




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec 29 16:26:43 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:26:43 -0800
Subject: Afghans Demand End to Bombing
In-Reply-To: <003a01c19027$ee16cb00$03d36b3f@pacer.com>
Message-ID: <3C2DEEC3.11171.BC197F@localhost>


    --
> >    Heard on the news tonight that the "interim Afghan
> >    government" was
> > demanding an end to the bombing in 3 days, and that all
> > troops leave in 6 months.

On 28 Dec 2001, at 23:16, Jon Beets wrote:
> Can you show a reference to this?  Everything I read today
> said tribal leaders from the Paktia province were wanting
> the bombing to stop... I read nothing about the interim
> government stating it...

I noticed that the people complaining about the bombing wore
black turbans and long beards.  There are a lot of folk in
Afghanistan who are apt to call in airstrikes whenever they
see a bunch of people with black turbans and long beards. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     XXcyiAo/jcwuO7yAcbK8O4zdfMiGmmcIBVNhXw+e
     4mG+jQpGJvQO9nIrFI5TSbqd5M5bsa8Cb5IaBAPVv




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Dec 29 17:15:09 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:15:09 -0800
Subject: Fun with bleach and nail polish remover 
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011229171509.007da670@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:34 AM 12/30/01 +0200, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote:
>
>>> Minor correction: /H2H2/ should be /H2O2/, naturally.
>>
>>Organic peroxides are useful as improvised blasting caps, but otherwise
>>much too unstable.
>
>Yes, it's unstable, but what, exactly, is it that makes $H_{2}O_{2}$
>organic?

EL first made a correction to the text, then independently
commented about how *acetone* peroxides are touchy.

Acetone being organic.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 28 22:21:33 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:21:33 +1100
Subject: Kidnap jerk and lift.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011229171749.00a9eeb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,3505834%255E2862,00.html1.5m 
ransom demand for student
By ELISSA HUNT, Magistrates' Court reporter
29dec01
A WEIGHTLIFTER helped snatch a student from his home in a $1.5 million 
kidnapping plot, a court has heard.
Robert Fernandez, 25, is accused of grabbing the 21-year-old from his 
suburban driveway on March 3 this year.
A 10-month investigation by the tactical response squad has seen several 
men charged with kidnapping the student and holding him hostage for 15 
days, in a bid to get $1.5 million in ransom from his widowed mother.
Sen-Det Phil Gynther told Melbourne Magistrates' Court phone conversations 
indicated Mr Fernandez was employed to assault a Cranbourne accountant by 
breaking his legs in August 1999.
The former bouncer was asked by another man to "sort out" a person who owed 
him $130,000, the court heard.
Sen-Det Gynther said the kidnapping victim described one of his attackers 
as a big man with a ponytail.
He was later taken to a weightlifting competition in St Kilda where he 
identified Mr Fernandez, who was a competitor. The student was shocked with 
an electrical device and bundled into a car by several men on March 3.
The court heard he was hooded, bound with cable ties and left in a garage 
before being moved to a house, where he was held for a week.
He was later moved from motel to motel by his kidnappers, who brought him 
takeaway food. The abductors made about 37 ransom demands of the student's 
family, first asking for $1.5 million but later dropping their price to 
$800,000.
Police freed the student after 15 days.
Businessman Alex Yang Su, 33, and Shaun Goerlitz, 29, are in custody over 
the kidnapping. Sen-Det Gynther said he feared Mr Fernandez, an 
architectural draughtsman, would try to flee the country.
Sen-Det Gynther said evidence indicated Mr Fernandez's role was as part of 
the snatch team and he did not take part in the ransom demands. Defence 
lawyer Steven Pica said his client had no prior convictions and needed to 
be able to continue working.
Magistrate Barbara Cotterell refused bail and remanded Mr Fernandez in 
custody to appear at the same court on March 25.
Wonder if the curt Saxon of corralitos has any close relatives in the compound?




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Dec 29 17:27:39 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:27:39 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Afghan - Clinton Turned Down Files On Bin Laden
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229172623.03779b50@pop3.lvcm.com>


>>Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:23:11 -0600
>>To: Afghan Group:;
>>From: Larry Lloyd 
>>Subject: Afghan - Clinton Turned Down Files On Bin Laden
>>
>>DRUDGE REPORT
>>
>>FRI NOV 30 2001
>>
>>Sudan Tried To Give Clinton Administration Files On Bin Laden
>>
>>NEW YORK --Vanity fair has obtained letters and memorandums that document 
>>approaches made by Sudanese intelligence officials and other emissaries 
>>to members of the Clinton administration to share information about many 
>>of the 22 terrorists on the government's most-wanted list, including: 
>>Osama bin Laden.
>>
>>Vanity Fair is set to unleash the story in January 2002 editions, 
>>publishing sources tell the Drudge Report.
>>
>>MORE
>>
>>THE MUKHABARAT, A SUDANESE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, spent the early to 
>>mid-1990s amassing copious amounts of information on bin Laden and his 
>>cohorts at a time when they were relatively unknown and their activities 
>>limited, author David Rose reports. From the fall of 1996 until weeks 
>>before the September 2001 attack on the World Trade Center, the 
>>Mukhabarat made repeated efforts to share its files on terrorists with 
>>the U.S. On more than one occasion senior F.B.I. officials wanted to 
>>accept the offers, but were apparently overruled by the State Department.
>>
>>FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE MADELEINE ALBRIGHT and her assistant secretary 
>>for Africa, Susan Rice, declined to comment for this story.
>>
>>ACCORDING TO TIM CARNEY, THE LAST U.S. AMBASSADOR to Sudan, whose posting 
>>ended in 1997, "The fact is, they were opening the doors, and we weren't 
>>taking them up on it. The U.S. failed to reciprocate Sudan's willingness 
>>to engage us on some serious questions of terrorism. We can speculate 
>>that this failure had serious implications-at least for what happened at 
>>the U.S. Embassies in 1998. In any case, the U.S. lost access to a mine 
>>of material on bin Laden and his organization." He tells Rose, "It was 
>>worse than a crime. It was a fuckup."
>>
>>HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED? CARNEY CONTENDS that U.S. intelligence 
>>failed because it became "politicized": the message from Sudan did not 
>>fit conventional wisdom at the State Department and the C.I.A., and so it 
>>was disregarded, again and again. Rose writes that the simple answer is 
>>that the Clinton administration had accused Sudan of sponsoring 
>>terrorism, and refused to believe that anything it did to prove its bona 
>>fides could be genuine. At the same time, perceptions in Washington were 
>>influenced by C.I.A. reports that were wildly inaccurate, some the result 
>>of deliberate disinformation.
>>
>>ROSE REPORTS THAT, HAD U.S. AGENCIES EXAMINED the Mukhabarat files in 
>>1996 when they first had the chance the prospects of preventing 
>>subsequent al-Qaeda attacks would have been much greater. Gutbi al-Mahdi, 
>>the Mukhabarat's director general between 1997 and 2000, claims that if 
>>the F.B.I. had taken his offer in February 1998, the embassy bombings 
>>could have been prevented: "They had very little information at that 
>>time: they were shooting in the dark. Had they engaged with Sudan, they 
>>could have stopped a lot of things." Rose writes that as late as the end 
>>of 1995, bin Laden was not judged important enough by the C.I.A. or the 
>>F.B.I. for anyone to mention him to U.S. Ambassador Don Petterson when 
>>Petterson talked to the Sudanese about terrorism, an indication that the 
>>U.S. knew very little about bin Laden's organization or lethal capacity. 
>>"My recollection is that when I made representations about terrorist 
>>organizations Osama bin Laden did not figure," Petterson says. "We in 
>>Khartoum were not really concerned about him."
>>
>>SOME OF THE MUKHABARAT'S FILES IDENTIFY INDIVIDUALS who played central 
>>roles in the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 
>>August 1998; others chart the backgrounds and movements of al-Qaeda 
>>operatives who are said to be linked directly to the atrocities of 
>>September 11. Among those profiled:
>>
>>Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, another of those named on the F.B.I.'s 
>>most-wanted list, who set the plot for the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings 
>>rolling during two trips he made to Nairobi in the spring of 1998 from 
>>Khartoum, where he was apparently working for al-Qaeda. Rose writes that 
>>had the F.B.I. accepted al-Mahdi's February offer, it might have foiled 
>>Mohammed's plans by stepping in when he rented a villa in Kenya, gathered 
>>the bombers at the Hilltop Hotel in Nairobi, or helped stuff a pickup 
>>truck with TNT.
>>
>>Two men carrying Pakistani passports and using the names Sayyid Iskandar 
>>Suliman and Sayyid Nazir Abbass, who arrived in Khartoum from Kenya a few 
>>days after the 1998 embassy bombings and rented an apartment overlooking 
>>the U.S. Embassy in Khartoum. They appeared to be reconnoitering for a 
>>possible future attack and are believed to be members of al-Qaeda. They 
>>also stayed at the Hilltop Hotel in Nairobi-the base used by other 
>>members of the embassy-bombing conspiracy. Sudan arrested the two men and 
>>offered to extradite them for trial, but the U.S. did not respond, 
>>instead opting to bomb the al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory in Khartoum, 
>>which was found to have no connection to bin Laden but made vaccines and 
>>medicine and had contracts with the U.N.
>>
>>Wadih al-Hage, bin Laden's former private secretary, now serving life 
>>without parole after his conviction in New York for his role in the 1998 
>>embassy bombings, who was logged and photographed in Sudan. He is said to 
>>have moved among bin Laden's cells and across four continents-information 
>>that surely would have been helpful in cramping al-Qaeda's style had it 
>>been grasped in 1996.
>>
>>Mamdouh Mahmoud Salim, a Sudanese born to Iraqi parents and an Afghan-war 
>>veteran who worked for two bin Laden companies until 1995. Salim provides 
>>a link to the New York suicide hijackers. From 1995 to 1998, he made 
>>frequent visits to Germany, where a Syrian trader, Mamoun Darkazanli, had 
>>signing powers over his bank account. Darkazanli has allegedly procured 
>>electronic equipment for al-Qaeda. Both men attended the same Hamburg 
>>mosque as Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, who flew the two planes into 
>>the World Trade Center.
>>
>>ACCORDING TO AL-MAHDI, THE INTELLIGENCE SERVICE kept tabs on the entire 
>>bin Laden "clique": "We had a lot of information: who they are, who are 
>>their families, what is their education. We knew what they were doing in 
>>the country, what is their relationship with Osama bin Laden. And [had] 
>>photographs of them all." A senior official from Egyptian intelligence, 
>>who has worked closely with the Mukhabarat, substantiates the account: 
>>"They knew all about them: who they were, where they came from. They had 
>>copies of their passports, their tickets; they knew where they went. Of 
>>course that information could have helped enormously. It is the history 
>>of those people."
>>
>>THE MUKHABARAT ALSO UNCOVERED A WEALTH OF information about bin Laden's 
>>connection to Egyptian Islamic Jihad, including the fact that he hosted 
>>its founder, al-Zawahiri, in 1992. The group has since effectively merged 
>>with al-Qaeda. Yahia Hussien Baviker, the Mukhabarat's deputy chief since 
>>1998, says, "These files on the Egyptians could have been of great value 
>>to U.S. intelligence. If we'd had communication with the U.S., we could 
>>have been on the same wavelength. We could have exchanged notes." A 
>>C.I.A. source tells Rose, "If anyone in the world understands the 
>>Egyptian side of this network, it's Sudan."
>>
>>IT WAS NOT UNTIL MAY 2000 THAT THE U.S. SENT A JOINT F.B.I.-C.I.A. team 
>>to Sudan to investigate whether it was harboring terrorists; the country 
>>was given a clean bill of health in the summer of 2001. Just a few weeks 
>>prior to the September 11 attacks, the Bush administration requested 
>>Sudan's information on al-Qaeda.
>>
>>THE JANUARY ISSUE OF VANITY FAIR HITS NEWSSTANDS in New York on December 
>>5 and nationally on December 11.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Sat Dec 29 15:00:50 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:00:50 -0500
Subject: cell phone guns 
Message-ID: <200112292300.SAA22263@mail.lokmail.net>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 28 23:26:30 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:26:30 +1100
Subject: Western Culture, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011229182019.00a98990@pop.useoz.com>


Brilliant post jya,Kudo's,props,major props(wtf are they,anyway?) A
cypherpunk first among sequals.I salute you.
The following is an extract on the pitfalls of  paternalistic western
racist culture and how the united snakes is going down slow.(Rome wasn't
burned in a day.)
Subject: The twice promised lands
The sheer Machiavellian hypocrisy of the Kashmir partition is perfectly
well documented. Britain, speaking through Viceroy of India Mountbatten,
made a fine proclamation in 1947 : the rulers of princely states should
decide about accession to India or Pakistan keeping in mind the
geographical situation of their states, ethnic composition of the
population and wishes of the people. People on both sides of the religious
divide welcomed this principle joyfully and were counting on it in deciding
where to live. Then, unexpectedly, at the intervention of Jawahar Lal Nehru
(a Kashmiri pandit and a paramour of Lady Mountbatten!) Britain reversed
her decision in a matter of 3 days in August 1947, and divided up the
Punjab state by giving several Muslim majority districts to India. This
violation gave India a border with Kashmir, an invasion route into it, and
caused about half a million deaths and 16 million refugees as people
scrambled to get onto the right side of the changed border. [1]
Kashmir was booby-trapped by the British in 1846, not 1946, in the Treaty
of Amritsar wherein England ceded this 80% Muslim land to a Hindu dynasty.
Previously, the Moguls were rulers over northern India, so that a Muslim
ruler often had Hindu subjects. In 1947, only three out of 562 princes who
were of a different religion from their subjects were reluctant to accede
to the nation their people desired. Two were Hindu states with Muslim
princes, which India simply invaded and annexed with British consent. In
the case of Muslim Kashmir, on the contrary, or should we say consistently
with millennial Western anti-Muslim policy, Britain and India plotted an
intrigue to absorb this gem and important water source into India.[2]
60,000 Muslims had returned home to Kashmir after distinguished fighting
for Britain against the Germans. In gratitude, they were banned from the
Kashmiri Army, which was manned instead with Hindus and Sikhs imported from
India. In Summer 1947 the Hindu Maharajah of Kashmir started a provocative
campaign of oppression, banning pro-Pakistani newspapers, applying onerous
new taxes and burning down villages.
When the inevitable insurrection started, the Maharajah, Pandit Nehru, Lord
Mountbatten and Clement Attlee executed a rapid-fire, obviously prepared
charade to sanctify an Indian invasion. Nehru promised the world that the
attack had nothing to do with annexation, but only with maintaining law and
order. Mountbatten issued a pearl of neo-imperialistic hypocritical prose
which is worth study, to help recognize the genre as you unravel the
ceaseless spin in todays media:
As soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil
cleared of the invader, the question of the State's accession should be
settled by a reference to the people. Meanwhile action has been taken today
to send troops of the Indian Army to Kashmir.[3]
See the pattern? A high ideal is couched in terms of the impossible
fulfillment - law and order could never be restored once the Indian
invasion started, and the so-called invaders to be cleared of the soil were
the sons and tillers of that very soil! Simultaneously, with words shouting
louder than a revivalist preacher, acts and facts hit the ground. Britain
invaded Kashmir with Indian troops. And for fifty-four years she picks her
royal nose and looks on like it was none of her affair!
The same sick warp pervades the UN and international opinion fora. Reuters
baldly datelines stories from Srinagar, India in the revolt-racked
Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir - even though India needs 700,000 troops
to hold onto these Muslim provinces, which Nehru promised never to annex
when he and his cuckold buddy Mountbatten invaded them.
What look like olive leaves on the UN seal really come from a fig tree. UN
resolution #48 from 1948 calls for Pakistan to remove irregular
guerrillas BEFORE India removes its regular army - although Kashmir is
Pakistani by British and International rules, and the irregulars may or may
not be from outside Kashmir: they are just a convenient red herring. Such
conscience-numbing mumbo-jumbo resolutions are merely a guarantee of
eternal military occupation, a license for progressive ethnic cleansing and
eventual complete absorption by non-Muslim invaders.
Sound like the broken record we all know from Palestine? Until Arafat keeps
all kids indoors, Israel may continue to occupy, annex, oppress and make
refugees of the Muslim majority. Britains comment on it: What, me, worry?
Our American colonies will see the wogs off the property.

Britain is only playing dead. She remains the all-time master of propaganda
warfare (remember the Belgian kids with their hands cut off by the Germans
on the phony posters that helped get US into WWI?) It is well within her
means either to take direct military action, as she did in the Falklands,
or to mobilize a military and diplomatic coalition to set matters to rights
in two countries she ruined, Palestine and Kashmir. The will is lacking. Why?
Hmm. The West singled out the Muslim world long ago as Enemy Number One,
and has made this a self-fulfilling prophecy. There are many aspects to
this. In the Western subconscious, there is the memory of the Crusades and
the defeat by Saladin. Further back, Christianity has a guilty conscience:
it swapped monotheistic purity for power and pagan lore, only to be crushed
by the fall of Rome, and eclipsed by the glory of Islamic faith, culture
and science for centuries. It was a millennium later that a materialist -
fundamentalist Europe picked itself up on arms and technology and avenged
itself on the planet.
The Islamic axis, extending from Morocco to Indonesia, lay athwart the
playground of world empire, blocking the Suez and Central Asian passages to
India. In 1840, when Britain fought a war to force Chinamen to remain
impassive consumers of Indian opium from British ships, she also eliminated
the upstart Ahmed Pasha in Egypt, who had dared to industrialize and start
the process of Arab unity by joining with Syria. Then the Afghans could not
be subdued, the Sudanese dervishes broke the British square, and Muslims
often revealed a dangerous immunity to Western consumerism.
Something scary about these Mohamedans. Enough to bury the hatchet with any
enemy that goes in with us against them. Start by giving those shiftless
Jews Palestine and some useful work to do by splitting the Muslim world in
half: even though it took half of the 19th century for Britains skunk
works to interest the Jews in the scheme - and about half a minute to get
the world to forget who dreamed up the fatal idea! Give Vladimir Putsch -
in a hand with genocide in Chechnya and a seat in NATO as an ally against
Islam. Why not, we have an infallible precedent from the 13th century, when
the Pope called Genghiz Khan brother for his services in bathing Muslim
Asia in babies blood.
Mah fellow fundamentalists, know today that Whoever is not with McWorld is
against it. Indifference will not be tolerated, certainly not from a
religion of peace!
The US-UK policy has been largely successful. Muslim nations remain
bitterly divided. They cant even manufacture their own weapons, by Jove.
Aside from a few hysterically unstable regimes (neat label, that R-word),
plutocratic neo-imperialism is the rule: you know, old boy, sort of
mercantilist remote control, with some of your local figurehead Oreos on
the take.
Yes, the West is a thundering success by its own measures - but humanity
will be a failure if those measures become universal. That is the only
reason to hope: this can not be Gods plan, or Darwins, whomever you
believe in.
Meanwhile, though, the massed mammon worshippers have been rewarded by
their deity with all the appearances of a comfortably superior position.
After detailing the tale of Britains responsibility, one Pakistani writer
only musters the courage to modestly propose:
To rid the 1200 million humanity (India and Pakistan) of its miseries
caused by a wrong act of British Indian Government, Britain should now use
her influence in the world and in the Common Wealth, and support/launch
initiatives in a meaningful manner for seeking a just solution of the
Kashmir problem.[4]
But Britain is not about to do this when she can sit and smirk by the
hearth instead. Kashmiris, Palestinians and their representatives should
file complaints and suits against Britain in every possible world forum,
and at least wipe away that snide sneer for awhile.
Deviousness is no defense in criminal cases. On the contrary. Even in
England, mind you.
Notes:
[1]. http://www.unol.org/messages/17765.shtml
[2]. http://www.klc.org.pk/klc/books/kashmir-3.htm
[3]. http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kasmount.htm
[4]. http://www.unol.org/messages/17765.shtml
Mr. John-Paul Leonard is a free-lance writer and a regular contributor to
Media Monitors Network (MMN)
Source:
by courtesy & ) 2001 John-Paul Leonard
by the same author:
The Twice Promised Land
http://www.mediamonitors.net/leonard1.html
and
More in MMN 'Perspective' @
http://www.mediamonitors.net/perspective.html




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 28 23:32:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:32:13 +1100
Subject: Mushroom clouds over Cali.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011229182726.00aa0c40@pop.useoz.com>


The curt saxon of carralitos tries to keep cypherpunks in the dark and fed 
on BS. Buffer the overflow slayer has been called in to stake the ugly mother.
http://www.ainfos.ca/
________________________________________________
News from the Farm Worker Movement(www.ufw.org):
For 14 years, workers at Picksweet Mushroom Farms in Ventura County
north of Los Angeles have tried to negotiate a United Farm Workers
contract. Picksweet has ignored its workers desires and violated a host of
state labor laws.
* A detailed nine-count complaint issued on June 26, 2001 by prosecutors
with California's Agricultural Labor Relations Board cited Picksweet for
bad faith bargaining and illegally conspiring to get rid of the union.
* Pictsweet was recently fined $7,475 by the Oregon Occupational Safety and
Health Division for safety violations at its Salem plant. One of them
caused Enrique Diaz Lupian, 46, to lose his right hand in an accident.
Other workers in both Oregon and California have been disciplined or fired
for supporting unions.
* On Sept. 4, 2001, the state of California filed another complaint against
Picksweet for firing Ventura, Calif. mushroom worker Fidel Andrade because
he exercised his right to organize and support the UFW.
Conditions at Picksweet in Ventura are cruel and dangerous. Mushroom
workers labor in dark and damp rooms. Floors are slippery. They only have
the lights on their helmets to guide them. Many suffer vision problems.
Such conduct is why workers have called for a boycott of Picksweet
mushrooms. Picksweet has lost many major customers, including Vons and
Safeway supermarkets, and Pizza Hut restaurants.
Picksweet workers ask consumers to help them ensure Vons and Safeway
continue to keep Picksweet mushrooms off their shelves until a union
contract with the Ventura, Calif. plant is signed.
Email Vons and Safeway today! Go to http://www.ufw.org/ufw/e-mail.htm and
send your e-mail today!
For more information on the Farm Worker Movement visit our web site at
http://www.ufw.org and/or subscribe to the Farm Worker Movement list serve
by sending an e-mail to UFW-subscribe at topica.com. To unsubscribe send an
e-mail to: UFW-unsubscribe at topica.com.
AND
Scotland Yard probes A-tests
By CHRISTINE MIDDAP in London
29dec01
SCOTLAND Yard has launched a criminal investigation into Britain's atomic 
bomb tests on Christmas Island off Australia's northwest coast in the 1950s.
The inquiry centres on claims from the widow of British RAF pilot Eric 
Denson that military chiefs ordered him to fly his plane through a mushroom 
cloud several times to collect radioactive samples for scientists in 1958.
More than 22,000 British servicemen were involved in, or witnessed, 21 
atomic bomb tests in Australia, Christmas Island and other Pacific Islands 
between 1952 and 1958, according to a report in British newspaper The 
Guardian.
The police inquiry will look at whether it was legal for military chiefs to 
order Mr Denson to fly through the radioactive cloud.
His widow, Shirley, claims the British Government knowingly and maliciously 
exposed her husband to deadly levels of radiation, which ultimately led to 
his death.
Mr Denson, who developed chronic respiratory and psychological illnesses, 
committed suicide in 1976.
He told his father that as he battled to control the plane in the powerful 
mushroom cloud, the Tennyson lines: "Into the jaws of Death, into the mouth 
of Hell," kept going through his mind. Electrical fitter Ken Sutton, now 
dead, said in a statement that he took recordings from the radioactively 
"hot" plane the day after Mr Denson's flight.
He said in a statement that he was scared to death of the radiation: "You 
couldn't see it, you couldn't smell it, you couldn't touch it or anything, 
but you knew damn well it was a killer," he said.
Other servicemen have told of their horror at witnessing a nuclear 
explosion on Christmas Island.
Royal Engineers sapper Ken McGinley, then aged 20, said he and others were 
ordered to sit on a beach before the April 1958 explosion and jam their 
fists into their eyes.
But when he heard the blast he opened his eyes and saw the bones of his 
hands light up like an X-ray.
"The noise was deafening, like a thousand horses thundering towards you. 
The man next to me broke down and cried," he told The Guardian.
The servicemen were ordered not to reveal any information about the tests, 
but their resolve fractured by the 1980s when they started to develop 
illnesses and cancers believed to have been caused by the tests
The plutonium is in the post Tim.boil away.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 28 23:40:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:40:17 +1100
Subject: Ratbags with matches light a fire under the Bushes.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011229183312.00aa09c0@pop.useoz.com>


"Every year we get some ratbags who get their kicks out of this. We can't 
be everywhere. People should be very careful and vigilant for people acting 
suspiciously.
"We don't care if it's someone doing something legitimate -- let us 
investigate that."
Vehicle descriptions, registration numbers or descriptions of people acting 
suspiciously could be invaluable in arson investigations, Det-Insp Cooney said.
An arsonist was responsible for the deadly Dandenong Ranges blazes of 1997, 
which claimed three lives and destroyed 41 homes.
The killer has not been caught but Det-Insp Cooney said that crime might 
have been solved with the kind of scraps of information witnesses may have 
thought insignificant.
Firebugs start hundreds of blazes throughout the state each summer but 
charges are only laid over a small fraction.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,3449387%255E1702,00.html 

Former police jailed for perjury
 From AAP
17dec01
TWO former NSW police officers have been jailed for lying over an
incident where a group of young men were forced to run a gauntlet of
police batons.
Christine Gay Fish, 36, was found guilty by a jury of one count of
perjury and John Gordon Swan, 52, of two counts in October after a
trial
in the NSW District Court.
Today acting Judge Donald Stewart condemned the pair, saying that a
policeman or woman committing perjury "strikes at the very heart of
justice".
"If this is police culture, it's disgusting and wrong and the sooner
this message goes out the better," he said.
"Police should not be allowed to think perjury is a minor peccadillo."
Judge Stewart jailed Fish for 20 months, with a non-parole period of 12
months.
Swan also was jailed for 20 months, with a non-parole period of 12
months, on each count to be served cumulatively.
The court was told the charges related to court appearances involving
one of a group of nine young men who in 1990 were forced to run a
gauntlet of batons at Kings Cross police station following "near riot"
at nearby Darlinghurst Road.
The incident emerged at the royal commission into police corruption.
Judge Stewart said the men were "severely assaulted in a cowardly and
reprehensible manner".
He said police executed "severe and summary punishment" against the men
for vengeance.
Swan and Fish then lied in court to protect their mates over the
incident.
Another officer involved in the incident, David John Langton, pleaded
guilty to perjury and assault charges.
He was sentenced last month to two years' jail on two perjury counts,
to
be served cumulatively.
16dec01
THE ANTI-CORRUPTION Commission has revealed details of an investigation
into theft and drug dealing by a group of WA police officers.
The case is one of a number highlighted in the ACC's annual report,
released this week. It involved three detectives accused of stealing
about 1000 morphine tablets from a Kalgoorlie disabled pensioner in
1998
and trying to sell the drugs.
The officers had heard about the stockpile of narcotics through an
informant and went to the pensioner's home.
"Searching the house, the officers found the narcotics, counted them,
took some and departed," the ACC report said.
When the pensioner reported the theft two constables went to his home
to
investigate. Soon after, two of the accused detectives arrived.
"They then took over, sent the constables away and kept the incomplete
offence report that one of the constables had begun preparing," the ACC
found.
The ACC searched houses and businesses linked to the officers in
several
WA locations and found "unexplained sums of money, both in cash and
deposited in bank accounts . . . in the possession of the officers."
The ACC supplied an informant with $18,000 to buy the drugs from the
allegedly corrupt police officers, but the sting operation fell apart
when the informant stole most of the "buy" money. The informant was
charged and received a suspended jail sentence in October last year.
A brief was sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, but no charges
have been laid against the officers. However, Police Commissioner Barry
Matthews decided to sack the detectives, saying he had lost confidence
in them. Police Union president Mike Dean said the three officers
maintained their innocence and were awaiting the outcome of an
Industrial Relations Commission appeal against their sackings.
A separate case investigated by the ACC last year involved allegations
that WA police officers were involved in two murders and had been
compromised by a bikie gang which had videotaped officers using drugs
and having sex.
The man making the allegations was registered as an informant and
located to a "safe house". He signed a 22-page statement, then refused
to co-operate any further and the ACC concluded that the allegations
could not be substantiated.
-- Subject: Arson around
Police car hit in fire attack
By CAMERON SMITH
29dec01
A POLICE car was damaged after it was torched in Melton early yesterday.
At 2.15am, a watch-house keeper noticed an unusual glow outside of the 
building on one of the station's security cameras.
Sgt Simon Payne said officers went outside to investigate and found one of 
their marked sedans engulfed in flames.
"The flames on the bonnet were 2m high," he said. "Three members came out 
with fire extinguishers and were able to put the fire out."
Police found a bucket by the car, which is thought to have contained fuel 
for the fire.
Police are expected to view video tapes from a nearby service station in 
the search for clues.
The police car will also undergo forensic testing.Professor rat,who lives 
less than an hour away on motorbike was asked to comment and denied any 
link to that..."exceptional piece of work"




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec 28 23:50:44 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:50:44 +1100
Subject: Hammer attack on ex-Intel operative.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011229184131.00aa3eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Tim May reacts to real anarchists much like dracula does to garlic,thinking 
of you Timmy,you racist jerk.You die soon.
http://www.ainfos.ca/
________________________________________________
 > From: 
As many of you may or may not be aware, the white supremacist group,
World Church of the Creator and their leader Matt Hale will be coming to
the Martin Library in York, Pa on January 12th. For more info on the WCOTC
please visit: http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/creator.htm
The WCOTC is notorious for picking a town with a present or past
racial conflict and exploiting the situation to gain new members. This time 
they
are coming to York, Pa because of a race riot that took place in 1969 where a
black woman was killed in a hail of gunfire by white youths. The mayor,
who at the time was a cop, is being charged with inciting white youths to
"kill niggers."
Months before the Sept 11th incident, Anti Fascists across North America
had noticed a distinct upswing in fascist organization and activity. After
Sept 11th, many fascist groups began exploiting the attack to their own
advantage and have actually had a dramatic increase in their ranks.
Compared to the same time last year, the National Alliance membership has 
more than
doubled!
Here in Philly and the surrounding areas, we have seen the effects of
this growth. National Alliance stickers started appearing in racially mixed,
working class neighborhoods in northeast Philly. Philly Anti Racist Action
tore down most of the stickers and put up ARA stickers in their place. A
bonehead by the name of Keith Carney was arrested in front of a Vietnam
war memorial while he, along with 10 other fascists were putting up National
Alliance stickers. Over the summer, Hammer "skins" held a show in
Harrisburg,
PA with over 100 boneheads in attendance. In recent months, National Alliance
affiliated boneheads and Hammer "skins" have been spotted at every major
venue, punk show in the city. A table with anti racist literature was kicked
over by boneheads at a punk show in Dillsburg, PA. A few months ago, 2
boneheads were arrested in South Jersey for breaking into a black couple's
home and beating them with baseball bats while they slept. Attacks have also
occurred in Baltimore outside of shows. To put it simply, shit is getting
out of hand!
Another alarming fact is that fascists such as the National Alliance have
been able to mobilize nearly the same amount of people to their demos as Anti
Fascists. In Wallingford, CT, the World Church mobilized not only people from
their own ranks but klansmen, hammer "skins", and other fascist groups as
well.
This should be a wake up call to Anti Fascists everywhere. The fascists
are crawling out of their caves and from under their stones. We must be there
to greet the World Church, pick up the stones, and send them running. Matt
Hale cannot be allowed to have a platform to spew his racist filth and divide
the working class. Keep the fascists on the run and never let them have
the streets! Join us on January 12th!
Please forward this to all anti authoritarian groups. More info to follow....
So far this call to action is being endorsed by Philly ARA, Columbus ARA,
Barricada Collective, and Tute Nere. If your group would like to endorse
this action please contact Philly ARA.
For now you can contact Philly ARA at:
Email: Philly_ARA @yahoo.com
Phone: 215-727-0882 box #3
Columbus ARA can be contacted at:
Email: aracolumbus at hotmail.com
Phone: 614-596-7677
Corralitos East,curt Saxon meet fellow caveman dick Cheney...
"It has become crystal clear that the West in general, led by the United 
States, are full of hatred against Crypto-anarchy Hatred cannot be 
defined," It's embodied though in the dick May's and Tim Cheneys.
Cheney's hiding in a cave, too--in Penn.
December 20, 2001
BY DENNIS B. RODDY
WAYNESBORO, Pa.--Three hours after Osama bin Laden turned the Pentagon into 
a disaster area, five helicopters touched down a few hundred yards from Hal 
Neill's house at the base of Raven Rock Mountain along the 
Pennsylvania-Maryland border.
Within minutes, a convoy of SUVs with black-tinted windows zoomed up 
Harbaugh Valley Road, turned left, and deposited the weight of the free 
world inside Site R, the inexplicably named city-in-a-mountain from which 
the Pentagon has operated and, from all indications Vice President Cheney 
has directed his office in the days since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Site R, with its six-stories of underground offices, a subterranean water 
reservoir, and banks of mysterious antennas, dishes and massive, steel 
doors, has been a designated backup command center since it was hewn out of 
the mountain in 1951.
For decades, Site R's presence was a village secret, barely acknowledged to 
outsiders and attracting little outside interest in turn.
''There are four entrances, but I've only ever been able to find three of 
them,'' said Neill, as he stood in his back yard, looking over at the guard 
station next to two oversize metal doors in the hillside. Six military men 
in sweatsuits jogged their way down the driveway and back up again.
''They weren't doing that before the attacks,'' Neill said. ''Now they're 
working out.''
The tidy equilibrium of rural life has been upended. ''Day and night, you 
hear the airplanes,'' said Bonnie Wolfe, whose model railroad shop sits 
below the flight path of the military jets and helicopters that 
intermittently pass by, usually unseen, inevitably heard.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Dec 29 17:01:24 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:01:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: http://www.fcc.gov and LINUX exclusion (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:50:52 -0600
From: Donn aka N5XWB 
Reply-To: n5xwb at arrl.net
To: Bob Bourgeois , Carl Perry ,
    Collene Pearce , Connie Neal ,
    Dan_Lee Vogler - TV Linux ,
    "David \"USB\" Nelson" ,
    "David A. Nelson" , Doc Shipley ,
    Donald Palmer ,
    "E. Ratliff" , geoffrey ,
    "J.D.K. Chipps" , Jep Hill #1 ,
    Jim Chote , Joe Barr ,
    John Dierdorf , Josie Duffey ,
    Mark Farver {KA9JMZ} ,
    Michael Rice ,
    Michael Stabenfeldt , Mick ,
    Mike Collins ,
    Paul Elliott ,
    Ray Menke {WX5D} ,
    Robb Romans , Scott Brown ,
    Stephen Johnson ,
    Stu Green , Tami Friedman ,
    Zachary McGrew 
Subject: http://www.fcc.gov and LINUX exclusion

Hello Group;

Sorry about the long mail list.

I would like to request you to contact your State Representative,
Senators and the Federal Communication Commission Officers about a
issue that is causing ALL UNIX/Linux and Apple users a problem.  It
seems that the FCC has chosen to exclude all NON Microshaft NT/95
users from being able to use their Internet Universal Licensing System
which they have requested FCC Licenses holder to use for license
renewals.  

The problem is that it requires a JavaScript Plug-in that is a
Microsoft product only.

Simply go to "http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls" and then select "ONLINE
FILING".  I believe this to be the complete path to the failure.  
Which is "This plug-in only runs on Windows NT/95".

We need to protect the finest operating system from being excluded
from the United States by our Government Officials.

-- 
73 de Donn Washburn     __ " http://www.hal-pc.org/~dwash "
Ham Callsign N5XWB     / /     __  __  __  __  __ __  __ MSDOS Virus 
307 Savoy St.         / /__   / / /  \/ / / /_/ / \ \/ / "Free Zone"
Sugar Land, TX 77478 /_____/ /_/ /_/\__/ /_____/  /_/\_\     OS
1.281.242.3256  email:n5xwb at arrl.net  Info:" http://www.hlug.org "




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Dec 29 19:04:41 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:04:41 -0800
Subject: e-gold under attack by robots
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229185949.036e0860@pop3.lvcm.com>


Seems some hackers have been running password attack scripts against e-gold 
since at least 12/25.  It has caused more than a bit of fear among 
egold-discussion list members concerned their passwords may not be safe 
against such methods.

steve




From james7316 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 30 07:27:05 2001
From: james7316 at yahoo.com (james7316 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:27:05 -2000
Subject: DVD COPIER SOFTWARE                     31912
Message-ID: <00005017766f$00005da1$000042d4@mx2.mail.yahoo.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1184 bytes
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URL: 

From david at morningwood.net  Sat Dec 29 18:26:33 2001
From: david at morningwood.net (david)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:26:33 -0600
Subject: cell phone guns
In-Reply-To: <200112292300.SAA22263@mail.lokmail.net>
References: <200112292300.SAA22263@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <01122920263300.07451@localhost.localdomain>


On Saturday 29 December 2001 05:00 pm, Faustine wrote:

> Hm, whatever works, I guess. Sheer stealth isn't as much a factor for me as
> is accuracy, reliability and being able to avoid the "woman with a
> peashooter" image. All rhetoric aside (but with all that in mind) I've
> actually been thinking of getting a 9mm, something along the lines of a
> Glock 26, a Kahr P9 or maybe a Sig-Sauer P239. Any thoughts?

I have a Glock M17 and M21.  They are both extremely accurate and reliable.  
Glocks are serious gun fighter's weapons because they have no extra bells and 
whistles like external safeties and hammer decockers. They also don't have 
different trigger pulls between the first shot and the following shots.  When 
I attended Front Sight half the instructors carried Glock M21s and the other 
half carried M1911 clones.

Because they have no thumb safety, Glocks need to be carried in holster that 
covers the tigger (of course that is best for all other makes also).  I 
comfortably carry  my M21 all day long in an inside the pants holster on my 
strong side hip.  With this carry I have never been asked to display my CHL.  
When George W. was governor I interviewed him at an event in a park, and none 
of the 30 or 40 cops or 10 or 12 body guards spotted it.

I suggest that you consider a .40 instead of a 9mm.  You should always carry 
the largest gun in the in the biggest caliber you can control and conceal.  
The bigger the gun the easier and faster it is to shoot accurately.  The 
bigger the caliber the more stopping power.  The reason the US military 
switched to .45 caliber handguns is becuause .38 caliber handguns were so 
ineffective against the Moros in the Phillipines.  Since 9mm is .36 caliber, 
the military has basicially returned to a caliber proven to be not up to the 
task.  Glock offers .40 in each of the frame sizes it offers 9mm in.

That being said, a .22 in your pocket beats a .45 you left at home any day.  
I carry a North American Arms five shot mini revolver in my front pocket.  
These little guns are not much bigger than a pocket knife.  They are 
inexpensive yet they are extremely well made and come with a life time 
warranty.   They are fun to shoot and I have fired several thousand rounds 
through mine.  It takes a lot of practice to hit a soda can six feet away but 
it would be a whole lot better than nothing at point blank range.

David Neilson




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 02:19:22 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:19:22 +1100
Subject: Faustines anal urges
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011229211610.00a6a180@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: Faustines anal urges,your yukon donkeys calling,fau baby.

 >>bringing up the idea of simultaneous detonation of suitcase nukes in 
multiple metropolitan areas. <<

Innerestin you bring that up Justine,zat wots worryn them down at NSA 
central? Why not simple OK Ryders with added homer Simpson fuel rods on 
top? Id love to slide one of those up your cute little sewer rats ass BTW.
Any thoughts on A DC net with envelopes containing pledges all snail,all 
meatspace,all APster,all the time?

I am waiting for my case to come up
& I am waiting
for a rebirth of wonder
& I am waiting for someone
to really discover America
 Lawrence Ferlinghetti,
A Coney Island of the Mind 




From schear at lvcm.com  Sat Dec 29 23:13:10 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:13:10 -0800
Subject: Rules Will Allow Airport Screeners to Remain in Jobs
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229230915.03709ea0@pop3.lvcm.com>


[So, as expected many of the same nitwits before 9/11 will continue to 
offer the mere semblance of safety and security for the foreseeable 
future.  Good reason to stay away from air travel.  steve]

Rules Will Allow Airport Screeners to Remain in Jobs
By DAVID FIRESTONE
In a shift, the federal agency supervising aviation security has decided 
not to displace thousands of current screeners by requiring them to be high 
school graduates.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/30/national/30AIRL.html




From thecreditguy at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sat Dec 29 22:24:46 2001
From: thecreditguy at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (thecreditguy at EINSTEIN.ssz.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:24:46 -0700
Subject: Start the New Year with a clean credit report! Learn how!
Message-ID: <200112300637.AAA04949@einstein.ssz.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 6415 bytes
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URL: 

From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Sat Dec 29 14:29:37 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:29:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Fun with bleach and nail polish remover
Message-ID: 


However, it may be impossible to prevent the publication of all information concerning the
     making and use of explosives. The problem of easy availability of information on how to make improvised explosive
     devices is compounded by the ease with which anyone can also obtain the necessary materials to make a bomb.
     Improvised explosive devices can be manufactured from such common chemicals as acetone (fingernail polish remover),
     peroxide (hair bleach), and one additional readily available ingredient. For example, Triacetone Triperoxide (TATP), a
     combination of these ingredients, is currently the most common explosive used by terrorists in Israel.


I have seen too many "dangerous" mistakes in this NG when AP is being discussed. I will rather give you the correct details that
you make it and do not blow off your hands. 

You will need 30% Hydrogen Peroxide (6% will give you a rather poor yield). Now to get the 30% Hydrogen Peroxide, go to
your local hospital chemist. 30% will never be sold to someone for their hair so don't try that story, so spin a story that the
Peroxide is to clean a wound as it is a great disinfectant (diluted of course). 

The acetone can be bought at either a hardware store or at a hospital or normal chemist. If you get asked why you need the
acetone, spin a story that it is used to thin paint, or to strip paint. Remember that acetone is highly flammable. 

The Hydrochloric Acid can be purchased from any swimming pool shop, or from your local hardware store. The type that goes
into your pool is normally 31.5% and is perfect for what you need. The Hydrochloric acid will give you a trimmer, sulphuric
acid will give you the dimmer version of the AP. 

Now that you have acquired all the ingredients, take a beaker or clean 500 ml bottle and place it into some nice cold water.
Into this beaker, add 200 ml hydrogen peroxide (try not to get any of this onto your skin). Now add 150 ml of the acetone.
Remember to do this outside as the fumes are rather unpleasant to breath in. You will feel the beaker will start to get a bit
warm. Now add 50 ml hydrochloric acid to the mixture and stir with a glass rod. There that is all you have to do. 

Do this experiment in the evening and let the AP stand over night. In the morning you will see that you will have +- 2.5 cm of
crystals at the bottom of the flask and +- 0.5 cm floating on the top of the flask. Take a glass funnel and insert coffee filter
paper or oil filtering paper and filter the AP crystals out. Place these crystals out onto a sheet of clean paper and leave them to
dry +- 1/2 a day to a day. Try to keep the crystals out of direct sunlight, preferably in a shady area. 

Place these dry crystals into a camera film container. Please do not hit these crystals with a hammer as a bright person claimed
to have done, you could land up with that hammer in your forehead. AP is sensitive to heat and to friction. When the crystals do
not respond to either friction or impact it simply means that the crystals are still too wet. 



WARNING: Acetone Peroxide is dangerous and very sensitive to FRICTION,
                            SHOCK, HEAT OR FLAME. Handle with great care!! This composition is dangerous
                            and would need to be handled by someone with a lot of common sense. If you do
                            not have experience with explosives DO NOT MAKE THIS. I can not stress
                            enough how unstable and dangerous acetone peroxide is. This explosive is the
                            most unstable of all other explosives. Making large quantities is suicide as the
                            weight of the crystals will detonate themselves.



                       Information on Acetone Peroxide:

                       Acetone peroxide is formed when hydrogen peroxide 30% acts on acetone. The
                       introduction of dilute sulfuric acid causes the reaction to go into completion.

                       There are actually two isomers of acetone peroxide, the first is tricycloacetone
                       peroxide and the second is dicycloacetone peroxide. Both of these compounds are
                       very similar, but the reaction seems to favor the tricyclo over the dicyclo. Both will
                       be made in the reaction to differing degrees. The trimmer has about 80% the power
                       of TNT.

                       A quantity the size of a pea in contact with a flame will burn instantaneously with a
                       small 'pop' and producing a fireball, much like HMTD does. Any sign of confinement
                       will ensure that ignition will rapidly give rise to detonation.

                       Acetone peroxide is a powerful primary explosive. It, as with other explosive
                       peroxides, seems to be very volatile. In standing 10 days at room temperature,
                       50% of the sample will completely volatilize. It's vaporizable nature makes it a
                       explosive that would have to be used immediately after manufacture. However, this
                       explosive is compatible with metals and will not cause their corrosion and the
                       subsequent dangers involved. It is also compatible with picric acid, R.D.X., T.N.T.
                       and P.E.T.N. It is highly friction sensitive and extreme care should be taken to
                       avoid this. Acetone peroxide is one of the most sensitive explosive known to man.
                       Great care would be needed to handle this explosive carefully. Mixtures of R.D.X.
                       and Picric acid with acetone peroxide are reported to be used between primary
                       explosive and the base charge. Mixtures such as picric acid / acetone peroxide
                       (40/60) or similar mixtures with R.D.X. and P.E.T.N. will give explosives greatly
                       increased resistance to impact without losing much performance. These dried
                       crystals would be ready to load into detonators for immediate use as the storage
                       stability is not very good.

                       DETONATION VELOCITY:   3750 M/sec. @ 0.92 G/cc
                                                                     5300 M/sec. @ 1.18 G/cc

                       FRICTION SENSITIVITY:     Very Sensitive!!!

                       Materials Sources
                       ---------------- 

                            Acetone C3H6O - Used as a solvent for stripping paint and cleaning brushes.
                            It can be purchased in pint to gallon sizes at hardware stores or paint supply
                            stores rather cheaply. 
                            Sulfuric acid H2SO4 - Available at chemistry stores. 
                            Hydrogen peroxide H2H2 - Available at a beauty supply store and possibly a
                            pharmacy. 

                       Procedure For Tricycloacetone Peroxide
                       --------------------------------------

                       This information is no longer available.  However I will give some tips on the procedure:

                       I used a 500-mL beaker during the stirring/preparing of the AP. Make up a salt-ice
                       tub. Place the beaker in the tub and cool it to 50 C. When adding concentrated
                       (75%) sulfuric acid, do it drop by drop using an eye dropper. Stir the mixture
                       continuously while adding the acid, keep the temperature between 50 C to 100 C,
                       stop adding acid if the temperature gets to high. After adding all the acid continue
                       stirring for 5 minutes. Keep the mixture in the tub for about 24 hours. After sitting a
                       white precipitate should have formed. The mixture is poured over a filter to collect
                       the crystals, then the white product is washed  three times with distilled water.

                       Allow the crystals to dry before using. Keep them damp if storing. 

                       I would suggest using this explosive within several days because it will quickly
                       vaporize. If you wish to store the crystals, you should keep them damp. 

                       NOTE: If the crystals vaporize inside a container it will crystallize into a
                       unstable form that will explode at the touch, even if damp!

-----
>From the Diane Feinstein Center for the First Amendment




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 04:42:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:42:01 +1100
Subject: Kill the president
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011229233250.00a939f0@pop.useoz.com>


Waco president arbusto e nuemann today let on he was pissed that the secret 
way he wants his death squads to operate leaked(see below for background) 
He was also said to be put off his banana's and peanuts by the suspicion 
directed toward an arab-american oberstumtrooper of the SS.The SS are my 
ubermench gibbered the loopy ruprecht.(see below,below.)

Subject: hoover fine example of seppo hero
Nazi Tribunal Is Model of Deception
Commentary. Ann Woolner is a columnist for Bloomberg News. The opinions 
expressed are her own.

By Ann Woolner
Atlanta, Nov. 23 (Bloomberg) -- President George W. Bush cites the 1942 
military tribunal convened to prosecute eight Nazis plotting attacks on 
U.S. soil to show how he wants to prosecute present-day terrorists.
It's a model, all right.
It's a model of a powerful government official using the secrecy of a 
military tribunal to deceive the public, falsely embellish his reputation, 
break promises to a whistleblower and sit by while a 30-year prison 
sentence is given to the man who thwarted the Nazi sabotage, a man to whom 
the agency had promised a presidential pardon.
That official was Federal Bureau of Investigation Director J. Edgar Hoover.
His aim was glory for cracking this hugely important case. The problem was 
that it took no detective work whatsoever to crack the case.
All it took was for FBI agents to believe a man, George Dasch, who twice 
called and then walked into FBI headquarters to tell them about the plot.
Dasch told them that Nazi submarines had deposited him and seven other 
Germans at U.S. shores in New York and Florida in recent days. Supplied 
with explosives and timing devices, their mission was to blow up certain 
U.S. military equipment factories, transportation structures and 
Jewish-owned department stores.
Dasch, aided by another would-be saboteur, Ernst Burger, led the FBI to the 
other six Germans, 14 American collaborators, $174,588 and a cache of 
explosives.
Pardon Promised
In return, FBI agents promised Dasch that if he pleaded guilty to his role 
in the plot, he'd get a prison sentence of no more than six months followed 
by a presidential pardon.
It didn't turn out that way.
During the 18-day trial, held in an FBI training room at the Justice 
Department building, agents played down Dasch's and Burger's cooperation, 
although one agent acknowledged Dasch had been promised the pardon.
This was not reported, since no journalists were allowed to cover the 
trial. Secrecy was necessary, Attorney General Francis Biddle explained 
beforehand, to prevent America's enemies from learning ``how our 
intelligence services are equipped to work against them.''
All eight Germans were convicted and six were executed, less than two 
months after Dasch arrived by submarine. Burger got a life sentence; Dasch 
got 30 years.
Hoover Censors Report
Even after the war ended and a new attorney general, Tom Clark, wanted to 
disclose what had happened at the trial, Hoover intervened.
He censored the report the Justice Department produced, cutting out 
information that could ``discredit or embarrass the bureau,'' Hoover wrote 
in a memo. Left out was any mention of the pardon promise and the fact that 
Dasch's own confession sparked the investigation.
Decades passed and Hoover died before the full story came out. Through 
Freedom of Information Act requests, Atlanta Constitution reporter Seth 
Kantor obtained the trial transcript, FBI reports and other documents and 
wrote a series of stories in 1980.
Those stories, on which this account is based, were recounted in an article 
this week by Cox News Service.
Prison Riot
As for Dasch, he'd been sent to the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary where his 
presence prompted a prison riot in 1944. Dasch, whom inmates threatened to 
throw off a five-story building, had been the principal target of the 
rioting prisoners, according to Biddle.
He survived and was transferred to Leavenworth prison in Kansas.
With pressure from new lawyers to release Dasch and Burger, President Harry 
Truman in 1948 ordered them deported to West Germany where they'd 
eventually be free. The White House statement continued the deception in 
explaining Truman's generosity toward these infamous Nazis: ``After their 
arrest, Burger and Dasch gave full and complete identities of all connected 
with the sabotage plot.''
This implied it was only after the FBI had tracked them down that they 
confessed.
Nor did this version help Dasch in post-war Germany. Nazi sympathizers 
threatened to avenge the executions of the other six saboteurs and the 
thwarting of Hitler's sabotage plans, prompting Dasch to move from city to 
city, job to job. By 1980, his trail had vanished, Kantor wrote. He has 
since died, according to news reports.
`Museum Piece'
Bush has ordered the creation of military commissions to conduct tribunals 
for the prosecution of non-U.S. citizens accused of terrorism against the 
United States. The speed of such tribunals, their portability, the 
availability of the death penalty and their looser rules make them a good 
option, in Bush's view.
But looser rules also mean a greater likelihood that the innocent would be 
convicted and the system manipulated by officials. Secrecy would mean no 
public scrutiny.
``To do this in a healthy fashion, one has to make trials as open as 
possible,'' says Ruth Wedgwood, a Yale law professor teaching international 
law and criminal procedure.
Bush's order describes ``a pre-1950 format'' for military tribunals, says 
Eugene Fidell, a Washington lawyer and president of the National Institute 
of Military Justice.
``This is a museum piece that's being trotted out,'' says Fidell. ``The 
question is whether it's being properly brought back.''
Presscott's Reincarnation gets what PR wants.
A Durham student activist gets a visit from the Secret Service
B Y J O N E L L I S T O N
A.J. Brown, a 19-year-old freshman at Durham Tech, was thanking God it was 
Friday. It was 5 p.m., the school week was over, and in an hour she'd be 
meeting her boyfriend to unwind.
November 21, 2001
T R I A N G L E S
Then: Knock, knock ... unexpected guests at Brown's Duke Manor apartment. 
Opening the door, she found a casually dressed man, and a man and woman in 
what appeared to be business attire. Her first thought, she says, was, "Are 
these people going to sell me something?"
Photo By Alex Maness
Threat or dissent? A.J. Brown and her anti-Bush poster
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But then the man in the suit introduced himself and the woman as agents 
from the Raleigh office of the U.S. Secret Service. The other man was an 
investigator from the Durham Police Department.
"Ma'am, we've gotten a report that you have anti-American material," the 
male agent said, according to Brown. Could they come in to have a look around?
"Do you have a warrant?" Brown asked. They did not. "Then you're not coming 
in my apartment," she said. And indeed, they stayed outside her doorway. 
But they stayed a while--40 minutes, Brown estimates--and gave her a taste 
of how dissenters can come under scrutiny in wartime.
And all because of a poster on her wall.
Though she's still a teenager, Brown is already more informed about 
political repression than most Americans. She's been politically aware and 
involved since grade school. "In second grade, I saw the Gulf War on 
television, and seeing those bombs drop, it did something to me," she says. 
"I knew from some news reports that there were innocent people dying."
In middle school, Brown became interested in environmentalism and civil 
liberties. She made the shift to full-fledged activist at Jordan High 
School when she became involved with Youth Voice Radio, a media collective 
with a leftist bent. Most recently, she's been involved with the movement 
against the war in Afghanistan.
Brown and fellow activists often discuss government encroachments on free 
speech and political organizing, she says, as do some of her favorite 
hip-hop artists. She loves her music--and that may have been what sparked 
the turn of events that brought the Secret Service to her door.
Brown suspects it began with the noise complaints. On Oct. 22, a Monday 
evening, she stayed up late playing some new CDs for her boyfriend. By her 
own admission, she was playing them too loud. Around midnight, a Durham 
police officer came by to tell her to turn it down, and she obliged.
Two nights later, someone from Duke Manor called in another noise 
complaint, and again a police officer came to Brown's door. This time, she 
says, her music wasn't playing at an offensive volume. The police officer 
speculated that the call may have been about someone else's stereo. During 
this visit, and unlike the first, the officer had a full view of the wall 
that faces Brown's front doorway, a detail that would become relevant two 
days later: On that wall hung The Poster.
Brown got it at an "anti-inauguration" protest in Washington, D.C. 
Distributed to hundreds of activists, it depicts George W. Bush holding a 
length of rope against a backdrop of lynching victims, and reads: "We hang 
on your every word. George Bush: Wanted, 152 Dead"--a reference to the 
number of people executed by the state of Texas while Bush was governor. 
Brown believes that the message caused the Durham policeman who paid the 
second visit to her apartment to recommend a third.
On Friday, Oct. 26, two Secret Service agents, along with Durham police 
investigator Rex Godley, came to Brown's apartment. Special Agent Paul 
Lalley, who did most of the talking, spoke first. "Ma'am, we've gotten a 
report that you have anti-American material, or something like that, in 
your apartment," he said, according to Brown. Then the female agent asked 
if they could come inside.
When Brown pressed them for a warrant and refused to allow them in, she 
says, "They started to talk to me about how, 'We're not here to take you 
away or put you in jail.' They were like, 'We need to follow up on every 
report we get.' I said, 'That's understandable, but how would you even know 
what's in my apartment?'
"They just said they had gotten information from some place," she says. She 
speculates that it was from the police officer who visited for the second 
noise complaint.
Godley, the Durham police investigator, won't say where the authorities got 
their tip about Brown's poster. "The only thing I can tell you is that we 
were assisting the Secret Service on one of their cases," he says.
Lalley referred questions about the visit to Special Agent Craig Ulmer, who 
heads the Secret Service office in Raleigh.
"We went in the first place because we received a tip about a threat 
against the president," Ulmer says. He refuses to identify the source of 
the tip, except to say that it was a "concerned citizen" and not a law 
enforcement officer. It's Secret Service policy to keep such sources 
confidential.
"We can't discuss who gives us information like that, because we want 
people to bring us information," Ulmer says. "If we burn our bridges, so to 
speak, we're not going to get help from the public."
Ulmer added that the poster "was in plain view, even from the window, so 
anyone could have tipped us off."
The agents persisted in their effort to get a peek inside the apartment. 
"They were being friendly, trying to get me to let them in," Brown says. 
After a while, Brown called her mother, an IBM employee who is in the Army 
Reserve. "She said to absolutely not let them in," Brown says. Not sure 
what else to do, Brown passed the phone--with her mother still on the 
line--to one of the agents.
The standoff continued, and eventually the agents explained why they had 
come by: "We already know what it is; it's a target of Bush," one of them 
said, according to Brown--apparently a reference to the poster. She 
informed them it was no such thing. They then said, "Well, it's Bush 
hanging himself." Nope, she told them.
Finally, Brown relented a bit, agreeing to open the door and show them her 
poster wall. "They looked in, and the lady was like, 'Ohhhh, that's not 
that bad.'" The male agent added, "We've seen worse."
Still, Brown's brush with the authorities wasn't over. "Since they were 
just gawking at my wall, I decided to explain it."
The wall features Brown's favorite art and mementos: a high-school photo 
project showing the perils of smoking cigarettes; a Pink Floyd poster ("It 
has that phrase, 'Mother should I trust the government,' so I had to get 
it"); posters for two Japanese cartoon shows; several pictures she took at 
protests and rallies; and a headband with "Democracy" on it. And, of 
course, the Bush-as-hangman poster.
Having seen the poster, Brown says, the agents questioned her further, 
asking: "Do you have any Afghanistan stuff in your apartment, or anything 
pertaining to that? Any pro-Taliban stuff?"
"I kept saying no," Brown says, "and I was like, personally, I think the 
Taliban are a bunch of assholes." With that, the investigator and the 
agents bid her adieu.

Brown was temporarily rattled by the visit from the Secret Service, she 
says, but the poster's still up, and she's still committed to her activism. 
"I'm definitely going to be vocal," she says. "If things get really hairy 
and they decide to come after activists, then I'd have to just grit my 
teeth and go through it."
Ulmer rejects the notion that Brown was targeted because of her politics, 
and he insists that the Secret Service would have checked this tip out even 
if it had come in before the events of Sept. 11. "We were doing our job in 
this particular case," he says, "and I don't think we could have done it 
any better."
"The Secret Service takes all threats against the president seriously, and 
we go out to check on every one. A citizen thought that there was a threat, 
and we went and talked to Ms. Brown and we found that there was not a 
threat." The poster, he says, was "misconstrued" by the tipster. "So it's 
not a big issue. The issue is that someone misinterpreted some writing."
But when "some writing" on a poster is investigated by federal authorities, 
constitutional issues come into play. Some legal analysts are warning that 
the new national security vigilance, and new laws passed to counter 
terrorism, might impinge on free speech in big and small ways.
"A poster of Bush, even if he's in a noose, is protected speech during 
wartime or peacetime," notes Alex Charns, a Durham attorney who specializes 
in civil rights. Such speech is all the more protected, he points out, when 
it's displayed within a person's home.
"If a trained police officer doesn't know the difference between political 
speech and a threat to the president, then we're all in trouble," Charns 
says. "If the Secret Service has nothing better to do than check on 
political posters, that's a bad sign."
The Web sites of the American Civil Liberties Union (www.aclu.org) and the 
National Lawyers Guild (www.nlg.org) offer analysis of the changing legal 
climate and advice for what to do if local or federal authorities come 
knocking.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 04:58:26 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:58:26 +1100
Subject: Rushkoff and buy this free market special.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011229235722.0318beb0@pop.useoz.com>


When I was a kid, we lived in a relatively modest neighborhood and shared 
one barbecue pit at the end of the block. Every weekend, anyone could go 
down there and make some hotdogs. Parents would even cook for one another's 
kids. When we got a bit wealthier, we moved out to the suburbs. There, each 
family had its own barbecue in the backyard. Instead of barbecuing with the 
neighbors, we competed with them. "The Jones's have sirloin, so we better 
get filet mignon!"

Sure, in the suburban sprawl schema, the Weber Grill company gets to sell a 
whole lot more barbecues, but our experience of community is surrendered to 
the needs of the marketplace.

I've been making this argument for the past couple of years in articles and 
speeches around the US. Then, just last month, a libertarian magazine made 
a fascinating critique of my work that they believed neutralized such 
anti-corporate sentiments: those of us taking a stand against the 
marketplace as the dominant social paradigm are only doing so in order to 
make money!

That's right  the whole 'lefty' thing is a disingenuous scam to sell 
books, posters, and magazines like this one. We're actually in it for the 
profit.

What makes this argument particularly perplexing is that, if it were true, 
shouldn't the libertarians praise us? We would be adhering, after all, to 
the very principles they espouse! We are simply providing a product that 
meets consumer demand, and  because we don't really believe the rhetoric 
we spew  we are doing so without prejudice or forethought. We are as 
blameless as corporations selflessly catering to the will of the 
all-powerful consumer. Just like global conglomerates, we  the merchants 
of Marx  are simply appealing to a target market. In our case, we sell a 
hip, anti-consumerist aesthetic to people who fall into the Seattle 
Demonstrator psychographic.

This kind of circular, self-perpetuating analysis is symptomatic of a 
society getting itself into some serious ideological trouble. We are so 
inundated by the free market's rhetorical whitewash that we are fast 
approaching what can only be labeled "market fascism": a social contract 
that can no longer tolerate any opinion or event that doesn't serve the 
speculative economy. Its adherents can't understand motivation in any other 
terms than profit-mindedness; they can't imagine alternatives to the logic 
of capitalism. Those who can conceive of counter-currents become the 
latest-variety "enemy of the state." The state itself, of course, is to be 
reduced to the barest regulation required for the free flow of capital and 
protection of property. Market opponents must be eliminated or, better, 
assimilated. The bottom line really does become the bottom line.

Currently, trillions of dollars and man-hours are being spent to lock down 
just such a reality template. Through intimidation, reward, and an odd 
scheme of justifications, the market is yearning towards the status of 
sacred doctrine. While it's still permitted, let's deconstruct some of its 
sacred cows before they become our only source of milk.

The first faulty premise of market fascism is that consumption invariably 
leads to an expression of democratic will  that we vote with our dollars. 
In this sense, corporations conduct focus groups, polling, and other forms 
of cultural anthropology, and justify this information gathering as an 
effort to get to the heart of what people really want.

In reality, the results of such studies are divided into two categories: 
desires that can be monetized, and those that can't. If focus groups 
conducted by the music industry, for example, determine that kids want to 
hear songs made by their own neighbors, record labels do not rush to market 
songs by anon-ymous teens. Instead, they use this information to construct 
publicity campaigns for the groups they have already decided to back.

No, the reduction of the role of citizens to that of consumers does not 
translate into cash-register democracy. It means that the scope of our 
influence has been reduced to very limited conversation with our marketers.

Market fascists dismiss such arguments, claiming that we are paranoid 
leftists, imagining a conspiracy between a group of fictitious marketers 
and corporate chiefs  that such people do not really exist. In a sense, 
they are right. In the corporate reality, no one is in charge.

When you walk into the gap, a young clerk will initiate a well-researched 
sales technique called gapact (Greet Approach Provide Add-on Close Thank). 
Should we be mad at her? Of course not. She's just doing what her manager 
has told her to do. If she doesn't end the day with a certain quota of 
multiple-item sales, she'll get in trouble. So do we blame her manager? No. 
He's got to meet a quota, too, set by corporate headquarters. Do we blame 
the marketing department? Well, they're just taking their orders from the 
ceo. And he's just taking his from the Board of Directors. And they're just 
listening to their shareholders. And those shareholders, well, they're some 
of the same people walking in the door as customers, who happen to have gap 
stock in the mutual funds of their retirement plans.

The whole thing is on automatic. Although corporations may have the legal 
rights of human beings, they aren't human at all. A corporation is just a 
set of code  like a computer program  a recipe for making money. The 
human beings enacting the code, from executives to customers to marketers, 
become part of the machine.

Worse still, today we are empowering our corporations with the most 
advanced techniques of persuasion known to science. I'm not talking about 
discredited notions like subliminal advertising, but much more pernicious 
forms of influence, like neurolinguistic programming, regression and 
transference, pacing and leading, and other forms of hypnosis. Sure, 
marketers and advertisers have always used versions of these techniques, 
but never have we extended and automated them through computers and onto 
the Internet. The Internet gives the formerly abstract corporate entity its 
eyes and ears. Consumer feedback is instantaneously recorded, compiled, 
shared, and acted upon. There is no need for human intervention, or, of 
course, the conscience or ethical considerations that might slow any of 
this down. Sell more stuff in less time with higher profit is the only 
corporate command set.

Like most Adbusters readers, I've spent a good deal of time examining how 
these techniques work. Suffice to say, the way to make people buy things 
they don't really want is by making them tense. In order to sell 
unnecessary goods, you must convince people they are unhappy so that they 
yearn to make their lives better  to fill in that sad vacuum. The plain 
truth is rarely put this plainly: a marketer's job is to make people unhappy.

And that gets us back to the oldest trick in the book for keeping people in 
line: take intimacy away from them. If a teenage boy is sitting on the 
couch next to his girlfriend, he's less likely to be persuaded to buy those 
jeans in the TV commercial. He's already getting laid! So what are the 
marketer's alternatives? Get the girl to worry about how her boyfriend's 
clothes reflect on her, or, better, find a way to keep the kids from having 
sex at all.

This all became stridently clear to me a few months ago, when I was asked 
to appear in a debate on cnn about censorship online. They had me up 
against a "family values" advocate. I was supposed to argue that the right 
to free speech outweighed the concerns of parents about what sorts of 
pornography their kids might stumble upon while surfing the web. As the 
debate went on, I realized we were all accepting the premise that kids 
should be protected from sexual imagery. What studies have ever been done 
to prove it's dangerous for kids to see pictures of people having sex? We 
let kids watch sitcoms in which parents regularly lie to one another  but 
we fear what will happen if they see people making love?

My point is not that kids should be exposed to porn. Rather, it is that the 
sacred truths we hold as self-evident are, in fact, blasphemous distortions 
of social reality intended to reduce thinking human beings into compliant 
consumers. This, combined with marketing techniques designed to limit human 
agency to impulsive Pavlovian responses, leads to an unthinking, 
unquestioning, and absolutely unfulfilled population, ripe for market fascism.

The irony here is that religion might actually serve as a last line of 
defense against this branded cultural imperialism. Adbusters' annual "Buy 
Nothing Day" used to occur once a week as a long-forgotten ritual called 
"Sabbath." Once every seven days, the Judeo-Christian founders concluded a 
few millennia ago, people should take a break from the cycle of consumption 
and production.

Imagine trying to practice Sabbath today. What's left to do that doesn't 
involve paying for admission? Are there any public spaces left other than 
the mall? Though the Sabbath was widely celebrated even 10 years ago, it 
now falls outside the imaginable for the market fascists: wouldn't it throw 
the economy into a recession?

Perhaps, but it would also give us 24 hours each week to restore a bit of 
autonomy into our own affairs. The hard right has claimed the spiritual 
high ground (as a way of promoting market values) but it may actually 
belong to us. It's our way of disengaging from the corporate machine, 
unplugging from the matrix, and considering whether we would rather have a 
communal barbecue pit at the end of the block. It's not time off; it's time 
"on." It's a sacred space for the living. We might even use it to have sex.

www.rushkoff.com




From kpj at sics.se  Sat Dec 29 15:16:51 2001
From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:16:51 +0100
Subject: Fun with bleach and nail polish remover 
In-Reply-To: Message from Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer
    of "Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:29:37 +0100."
   
Message-ID: <200112292316.AAA11725@color.sics.se>


It appears as if Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer
 wrote:
|
|I have seen too many "dangerous" mistakes in this NG when AP is being
|discussed. I will rather give you the correct details that you make it and do
|not blow off your hands.
[...]
|Hydrogen peroxide H2H2 - Available at a beauty supply store and possibly a
|pharmacy. 

Minor correction: /H2H2/ should be /H2O2/, naturally.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 05:19:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:19:17 +1100
Subject: BlackNet customers/suppliers needed.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230001821.00a8b5c0@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: dene suline Kanada
The Dene Suline of Cold Lake: Reasserting aboriginal title and opposing the 
NATO war machine
On December 12, 2001, the Dene Suline people of Cold Lake, "Alberta, 
kanada", are supposed to vote on an offer from the government to give money 
and land in exchange for Dene territory on which the Primrose Lake Air 
Weapons Range is located. Primrose Lake is a favored NATO playground, where 
they have tested out numerous missiles, bombs, weapons and aircraft that 
are currently being used in the War against Terrorism. The Dene Suline 
have established a camp at the main entrance of the weapons range and are 
opposing the theft of their land to feed the war machine and the oil 
industry. Since their earliest memories, the Dene Suline have lived 
peacefully on the land that is now the Primrose Lake Air Weapons Range. 
Through hunting, fishing, trapping, and food gathering, the Dene Suline 
have sustained themselves as a people in the face of genocide from the 
kanadian government and NATO. The Dene people live from northern kanada, in 
"Alberta, Saskatchwan, Manitoba, and Northwest Territories," down to Black 
Mesa in "Arizona." The U$ and kanadian governments and corporations have 
stolen their land, killed their people and forced the Dene onto 
reservations. Like the Dineh (Navajo) people at Big Mountain, the Dene 
Suline of Cold Lake have faced forced relocation. The first Europeans on 
Dene Suline territory were Hudson Bay Company fur traders and by 1867 a 
treaty, known at Treaty #6, was forced onto the Dene Suline. In 1952, the 
kanadian government, under the pretense of protecting the freedom and 
safety of kanada, stole the land encompassing Primrose Lake Air Weapons, 
land that was garunteed to them in their treaty. When this happened, the 
Dene Suline had a 7 day sit-in at Suckerville, on the shores of Primrose 
Lake, refusing to move until their land was returned. After heavy coercion 
from the government, a deal was made; a 20 year lease of 4,490 sq. miles 
for military use only and after 20 years, it was to be returned or a new 
lease renegotiated with the Dene Suline. Before 1952, a large deposit of 
oil was discovered on their territory and by the early 970s the technology 
had been developed to extract that oil. Since that time, the oil companies, 
primarily Alberta Energy Corporation, have been raping the earth in Dene 
Suline territory, taking billions of dollars worth of oil yearly and 
destroying the environment in the process. The voices of opposition from 
the Dene Suline have been ignored by the government and, not surprisingly, 
after 20 years was up, the government still maintained control over 
Primrose Lake and did not renegotiate the lease. The territory of the Dene 
Suline is being bombed and decimated everyday. Burial grounds, traplines, 
hunting and fishing grounds are destroyed by the greed of the oil industry 
and the bombs of the NATO war machine. Through alcohol, residential 
schools, poverty, and forced assimilation, the government has tried to 
break the culture and strength of the people.
NATO, the War Machine and Native Territory Many other indigenous Nations on 
Turtle Island have seen the effects of the war machine testing on their 
territories. The Western Shoshone people in Newe Segobia, (Nevada), have 
suffered from massive nuclear testing on their territory. Many people have 
contracted cancer and other illnesses and died from nuclear radiation and 
the subsequent destruction of the land and the sustenance it provides for 
their people. Low level flight trainings have shattered the lives of many 
Innu people in North Eastern kanada. Thousands of low level planes fly over 
their territory every year, negatively affecting the environment, the food 
sources and culture of the Innu. For 6 weeks every year at the Primrose 
Lake Air Weapons Range, more than 18 NATO countries use the range for 
"Operation Maple Flag" in which they test new laser and ballistic missiles, 
and depleted uranium bombs. In the 50 years since the Department of 
National Defense stole this land, Primrose Lake has become the second 
largest airforce base in kanada. The Tomahawk Cruise Missile was first 
tested at Primrose Lake, and then used in Iraq, Yugoslavia and now 
Afghanistan. The formation of the U$ and kanada was based upon the 
terrorizing and genocide of Native people. Christian fanatics conquered new 
lands through war, biological warfare (including the the intentional spread 
of small pox), land theft, forced assimilation, deceit, torture, rape, and 
destruction of villages, long houses, gravesites, carvings, totem poles 
etc. The West perfected colonization here on Turtle Island and now 
"Globalization" is its latest offspring with "Operation Enduring Freedom" 
(the War Against Terrorism) as its military arm. The War against Terrorism 
is colonization in the 21st century, as more areas and countries are turned 
into U$/Western military occupied zones and the people are forced to give 
their oil to the hungry western market and assimilate their culture and 
economy into the world capitalist market place. What NATO and kanada has 
done to the Dene Suline and their territory is what they want to do to the 
world. People have been lead to believe the war against terrorism is a war 
for freedom and democracy, to liberate Afghanis and other muslims from 
repressive governments and radical fundamentalists. But the Talibans 
treatment and oppression of women and non-Muslims is no different than the 
kanadian treatment of the Dene Suline and other indigenous people on Turtle 
Island. As "Operation Enduring Freedom" continues, there is only going to 
be more genocide committed against Native people of Turtle Island in the 
name of military testing.
Dene Suline Resistance For the past 6 months the Dene Suline have been 
asserting their aboriginal title and opposing the NATO war machine by 
reoccuppying their traditional territory at Primrose Lake Air Weapons 
Range. On June 3rd, 2001, the Dene Suline blocked the AEC (Alberta Energy 
Corporation) access road and the Weapons Range and established a camp 
there. They are re-asserting their title to their homelands by physically 
being and living on them, and by doing so, implementing the 1997 Delgamuukw 
supreme court decision, which affirms the inherent rights of Native people 
in kanada. The Dene Suline are now faced with a new attempt by the 
government and the Department of National Defense to steal their territory. 
The government has offered $25.5 million and a measly 5,000 acres of land 
in exchange for 4,500 square miles of their territory which encompasses the 
whole weapons range. This works out to a measly $35 an acre. The government 
has been working with the Chief and Council (state sponsored Band Council 
government) in an attempt to fast track this deal past the people. They 
hastily organized only 2 information meetings, one in Cold Lake and one in 
Edmonton, but in both places they were met with heavy opposition from the 
people. The government and the Chief and Council have been trying to 
cover-up this deal and silence media attention. The Chief and Council have 
enacted Indian Act voting regulations to make the voting age 21 (it9s 
normally 18), so as to exclude opposition from the youth. The Dene Suline 
are not giving up or backing down because of this latest tactic by the 
government. 20-30 people are still at the camp regularly (despite bitter 
winter colds) and they recently finished building their first permanent 
cabin and are in the process of building more. The Dene Suline will not let 
this deal through and are trying to stop it even before it comes to vote. 
Dene Suline Warriors are promising direct action against Primrose Lake, the 
government, Alberta Energy Corporation and anyone else in support of this 
deal. The Dene people have survived this long in the face of genocide and 
they will continue to fight to defend their territory against kanada and 
the NATO war machine. "WE need the world to look close at this act of 
aggression. We need human rights and environmental groups as well as the 
peace / anti-war movements to act on their resolutions and defend the 
territories," said Dene Warrior Brian X.
For more information contact Dene Suline of Cold Lake Box 8497, Cold Lake, 
Dene Suline Territory "AB" T0M 1M2 Cell: 780-812-0306 Phone: 780-639-4592 
How to support: The Dene Suline are desperately in need of funds: transfers 
can be made to Cold Lake Dene People9s Fund, acct. 230 6017 01-maximizer, 
Cold Lake Credit Union, Cold Lake, AB or donations can be sent directly to 
the address above. They need communications gear (video cameras, cell 
phones, radios). You can also support by organizing actions against any of 
the government bodies, Department of National Defense, corporations, and 
NATO. The Dene Suline want this information to get out to people, so please 
help by spreading the word. If you want to go to Cold Lake to directly 
support their actions on the front lines, contact the above phone number. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 05:23:00 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:23:00 +1100
Subject: Death to Capitalism.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230002033.00a8c040@pop.useoz.com>


the most stupefying characteristic of todays society is its ability to
make daily comfort exist a hands breadth away from catastrophe.
In the middle of October, 2000 in eastern Kentucky, a coal mine pond gave
way, releasing 200 million gallons of sludge into streams, killing fish,
washing away roads and bridges and fouling the water supply. The tar-like
sludge spread into the Ohio River. But such disasters are not so uncommon.
One need only consider the cyanide spill that happened in Romania at the
end of January spreading as far as Yugoslavia and leaving a few hundred
tons of dead fish (not to mention birds, otters and other creatures) in its
wake, or the spillage of radio-active material at Tokaimura, Japan that
caused major environmental damage for a radius of several miles around it
in October of 1999. And of course, we cannot forget Bhopal or Chernobyl.
But these are the most spectacular disasters, the ones that could not be
made invisible (though even disasters of this sort may, in time, become so
common that they cease to be newsconsider that there 45 coal mine ponds
that were said to be at higher risk of failure than the one that collapsed
in October). Disaster is, in fact an ongoing aspect of our present
existence. The estuary at the mouth of the Colorado River is quickly dying,
most likely due to the effects of hydro-electric dams. Chemical pollution
has spread death from the mouth of the Mississippi River well into the Gulf
of Mexico. The ozone layer disappears along with the forests and the
plankton that feed it. And the melting of the polar ice caps has forced
scientists to admit to the reality of global warming. When one adds to this
the more blatantly intentional disasters caused by the attempts of the
great powers to teach the lesser powers the meaning of democracy by bombing
the shit out of the powerless, it is clear that life in the present is
always lived on the edge of disaster.
When the litany of disasters that surrounds us is sung, it is easy to feel
that we are dealing with the inevitable, with an unavoidable fate. But this
is not the case. Every one of the disasters described above can be traced
to the functioning of specific social institutions and the decisions of the
people who hold power in them. As has been said many times, there are
people who make these decisions and they have names and addresses.
They also share a particular social position. As the rulers of this social
order, they benefit from it in terms of power and economic wealth. (That
they do so at the expense of their individuality and any real enjoyment of
life does not decrease their responsibility for the present existence.)
While some of the disastrous effects of their decisions may have taken them
by surprise, it cannot be honestly said that they acted blindly. After all,
these are the same people who had no problem with showering a small
predominately agricultural country with herbicide in an attempt to destroy
its economy. The environment is not their concern; power and economic
expansion are.
When capitalism developed the technological system ideal for its expansion,
the industrial system that began in the shipping industries which then
provided the resources for developing the manufacturing industries, the
door was opened to a world of daily misery and ongoing disaster. Whether it
be the genocide against indigenous people who did not adapt quickly enough
to their enslavement to the needs of capital, the illnesses and injuries
that the regime of work imposes on workers, the increasing precariousness
that faces everyone who is not of the ruling class, misery is the order of
the day in this society.
To fully understand why this is, it is necessary to realize that capitalism
thrives on crisis. Its order is an order of crisis management. For the
rulers of the social order this is not a problem. They are well protected
from the consequences of the crises that they sometimes quite intentionally
induce. Those at the bottom, those who have been excluded from any real
control over the circumstances in which they live, suffer the consequences
of this system.
The industrial system, which is so necessary to the expansion of capital,
has been an environmental disaster from the beginning, offering William
Blake some of his most frightening poetic images. The famous London fog of
the 19th century was, in fact, industrial smog which accompanied high rates
of tuberculosis among the poorer classes. Today, the toxification of the
environment combines with the stress of daily survival to create cancer,
heart disease, immune system breakdown and increasing levels of mental
distress and disorder from which those in power seek to protect themselves
with medical care that most of us could never affordand which plays its
own role in the toxification of this world.
Capitalism will not provide a solution for the disasters it causes. It is a
system of stop-gap measures, and, increasingly, as the new technologies
come to the fore, a system of tinkering with ever tinier atomized bits.
Unfortunately, in the face of economic precariousness and environmental
disaster, survival tends to take precedence over life and joy. And in this
way, the rule of capital penetrates even into our minds, as we find
ourselves succumbing to the use of stop-gap measures, of the methods of
crisis management, in an attempt to guarantee ourand the earthssurvival.
Thus, the strange phenomenon some of those who call themselves anarchists
using litigation, petition, even the electoral process in the attempt to
save a patch of forest, stop a particular development or prevent the
destruction of an indigenous culture. The problem is not that people
struggle for these specific aims, but that in desperation they lay aside
their ideals, their desires and their dreams, and use methods of struggle
that only reinforce the economy of disaster that rules existence today.
The struggle against this present existence in which misery and disaster
are the norm must, in order to have a chance, base itself in our desire to
live full, passionate lives, on the joyful intensity we create in our lives
in spite of the existence imposed on us. Only then can our struggle move
beyond the careful measurements of crisis management, beyond the stop-gap
measures for guaranteeing survival at the expense of life that merely aid
capitalism in maintaining and expanding its rule, instead embracing those
methods of struggle that move toward insurrection, toward revolution,
toward the unknown. Our present existence is a toxic prison. There is no
way to know what lies beyond the walls. But here we know we are being
killed and this can only end when our love of life moves us to tear down
the walls.

Link: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ProjectPl/willfuldisobedience/




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 05:30:38 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:30:38 +1100
Subject: PATRIOT games.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230002609.0319aeb0@pop.useoz.com>


The PATRIOT shredding and flushing of the constitution was drawn up and 
ready to go.Some background I want to store online,justin Case.
The Juvenile Justice Bill
After the Columbine High School shootings, the US Senate passed the May 
1999 Juvenile Justice Bill. Though unrelated in any way to "juvenile 
justice," several provisions were included that directly target animal 
rights and environmental activists. Reflecting industry pressure and 
influence, the Juvenile Justice Bill condemns people who commit politically 
motivated nonviolent offenses with exceedingly disproportionate prison 
terms. Unfortunately, this law is only one example of a systematic attempt 
by industry and government to discourage direct action by punishing 
activists with jail time that far exceeds time given to truly violent and 
dangerous people. Such sentencing preferences illustrate the priority the 
state (and our crypto-fascist , creep of creeps,Tim May btw.)gives to 
property over human life. The Juvenile Justice Bill also:
1. Makes it a federal crime to distribute information on how to make bombs 
(over the Internet or otherwise) or other weapons of mass destruction if 
the "teacher intends" for the information to be used to commit a federal 
violent crime, or knows that the recipient will use the information to 
commit such a crime.
2. Enhances penalties under the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act by changing 
a minimum sentence to a mandatory five years instead of one.
3. Creates a "National Animal Terrorism and Ecoterrorism Incident 
Clearinghouse" to "accept, collect and maintain" information on crimes 
against animal enterprises or commercial activities because of their 
perceived impact on the environment. Records of such incidents are 
available for all law enforcement agencies.
4. Enhances sentences for "gangs," defined as the assembly of three or more 
people. These sentencing guidelines promote selective and politically 
biased prosecution by applying more serious penalties against those who 
commit crimes in defense of animals or the environment. The courts are 
being asked to evaluate the actions of an individual and the thoughts 
behind an action instead of simply evaluating the actual crime. The bill 
also undermines the First Amendment protection of websites and publications.
The RICO Act
In May 1999, Senators Orin G. Hatch (R-UT) and Diane Feinstein (D-CA) 
introduced an amendment to the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt 
Organization (RICO) Act, aimed at "Animal Enterprise Terrorism and 
Ecoterrorism." RICO was originally designed to combat traditional organized 
crime and its infiltration of legitimate enterprises; however, its most 
innovative, and controversial, aspects are provisions which allow the state 
to seize property owned by anyone charged with being part of a "criminal 
enterprise." RICO targets illegal activity organized across state lines. 
Thus, if you "organize" using email and telephone, you can potentially be 
prosecuted under federal laws. In the past, RICO has been employed 
primarily against white-collar criminals, anti-abortion protesters and 
mobsters. Now, target groups can include just about anyone.
Oregon Declares War on Activists
On March 12, two bills intended to stiffen penalties for "eco-terrorists" 
were unanimously approved by the Oregon House of Representatives. Under HR 
2344 and 2385, Oregons organized crime laws would be expanded to include 
activities such as tree spiking and sabotage of animal research, livestock 
or agricultural operations. Convictions under the laws would be punishable 
by up to 20 years in prison and a $300,000 fine. Reflecting the hysterical 
attitude and culture of propaganda currently prevailing in the Oregon 
legislature, Representative Bob Jenson claimed he received threatening 
letters and phone calls a year ago when lawmakers were first considering HR 
2344 and 2385. He stated, "I will do everything to ensure that if you break 
the law as part of those protests, that you will get free room and board 
for 20 years." The process of attacking social movements in Oregon fits 
into a larger pattern of criminalizing dissent with respect to the 
anti-globalization movement, which is made up of anarchists, 
environmentalists, animal rights activists, students, Unions, teachers and 
others concerned about the fate of the planet and each other. David 
Helvarg, author of The War Against the Greens, stresses how difficult it is 
for ecologically destructive industries to look good and publicly justify 
their actions; therefore, their strategy has been "to make us look bad, 
demonize us and make themselves look respectable as a result." If one were 
to compare a cancer-causing industrial polluter to a teenage 
monkeywrencher, it would become glaringly apparent to the public as to who 
is the real "eco-terrorist."
Groups to Watch Out For
"A growing network of pro-technology activists is making sure that the 
message of my book, EcoTerror: The Violent Agenda to Save Nature, will 
produce results. By results, I mean congressional hearings and legislation 
to protect the public from environmentally motivated violence," says Ron 
Arnold in a Christian Science Monitor interview. Arnold is a spokesperson 
for the right-wing Wise Use movement and the executive director of the 
Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise. In a 1992 interview, he said, 
"Were out to kill the fuckers. Our goal is to eliminate environmentalism 
once and for all." He is a former spokesperson for Dow and Union Carbide 
and has financial support from corporations such as Exxon, DuPont, Georgia 
Pacific and Boise Cascade. Public relations firms, lobbying groups and 
think tanks work with and fund the Wise Use movement. Included amongst 
these institutions is the Heritage Foundation, which published a report 
entitled, Ecoterrorism: The Dangerous Fringe of the Environmental Movement. 
The report is a typical Wise Use mixture of truth, fiction and innuendo 
which targets Earth First! as a violent terrorist group. The report 
concludes with a strong denunciation of the use of violence as a tactic and 
claims that radical environmentalists are locked into an ever-increasing 
rampage of terrorist activity which is maiming, and which will inevitably 
result in the killing of innocent people. The report goes on to identify 
EF! as the enemy and pleads with the environmental community to isolate EF! 
and other so-called violent radicals from the environmental movement. It is 
interesting to note that this report was released in April 1990 and spread 
quickly through the Wise Use network. A think tank linked to the CIA, the 
National Strategy Information Center, operates a Counterterrorism Study 
Group (CSG). The CSG has identified all the possible sources of terrorism 
in the world today. Along with Iraq, Syria, and Lybia, it has concluded 
that a new source of terrorism exists within the "ecological movement," 
especially the elements of the movement which espouse biocentric views. The 
mission of the CSG is to identify the nature of various terrorist threats, 
devise new methodologies to analyze them and to implement responses through 
legal, military, political and intelligence means. The CSG has an 
international composition with academics, corporate officials and former 
government specialists in terrorism.
Disinformation campaigns and psychological warfare against 
environmentalists are only some of the techniques that are practicednot 
only by the FBI, but by a whole alphabet soup of federal organizations, 
along with the participation of local police forces, private security 
firms, local government and Wise Use sympathizers. "The environmental 
movement is being subjected to obvious surveillance, intimidation, 
anonymous letters, phony leaflets, telephone threats, police over-reaction 
and brutality, dubious arrests and other threatening actions unfamiliar to 
most activists," says Chip Berlet in his article "Hunting the Green 
Menace." Berlet continues that the "labeling of a group as violent, 
terrorist or pro-communist is often a first step toward the delegitimizing 
of that group. Such labeling undermines public support and thus sanctions 
the use of aggressive surveillance and harassment by government agencies or 
private security firms. There is also a self-fulfilling prophecy with 
labeling, as police are likely to respond with unjustified force when they 
have been trained to think of peaceful protesters as violent terrorists." 




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sat Dec 29 15:32:38 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:32:38 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Fun with bleach and nail polish remover 
In-Reply-To: <200112292316.AAA11725@color.sics.se>
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, KPJ wrote:

> Minor correction: /H2H2/ should be /H2O2/, naturally.

Organic peroxides are useful as improvised blasting caps, but otherwise
much too unstable.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 05:38:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:38:49 +1100
Subject: Outbreak on Clavius.Complete news Blackout.H.Floyd to
  investigate and report.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230003136.03198c50@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: quarantine on Clavius and corralitos.
During a health emergency, health officials would be able immediately to 
take over any materials or facilities "as may be reasonable and necessary" 
for emergency response -- including the management of a health care 
facility and the rationing of medicine and other supplies if a shortage 
develops.
They could compel a person to submit to a physical exam or test without a 
court order or be charged with a misdemeanor offense and face the 
possibility of forced isolation. Physicians and other health workers could 
be forced to do the testing or face criminal liability.
Court orders would be required for quarantining someone, but faced with an 
immediate threat, officials could quarantine first and go to court afterward.
The law sets forth a procedure for contesting court orders and for hearings 
on the need for continued isolation. Officials could compel people to be 
vaccinated or treated for infectious diseases, though not those likely to 
suffer serious harm from a vaccination. The law would shield officials and 
their agents from civil liability, except in cases of gross negligence or 
willful misconduct.
[George] Annas, the Boston University critic, says that the law's major 
problem is that it gives "tremendous powers to unnamed and unaccountable 
public health officials to order people examined, treated, vaccinated or 
quarantined and do it with immunity unless acting with willful malice.
Mousepox that was converted to a selective strain that infects white men 
only with 100% fatality rates is suspected.It is believed a professor R ,a 
molecular biologist accidently released the virus on a recent trip to 
sacramento.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 05:52:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:52:59 +1100
Subject: Strut like Tut,Tiny blur spotted in Egypt.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230004944.031a69f0@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: egypt dissident jailed,Toady Blecch could not care less.
Egypt's First Web Prisoner Of Conscience
by jonathan 5:56am Fri Nov 30 '01
Egypt's First Web Prisoner Of Conscience
''He is Egypt's first web prisoner of conscience," quipped one recipient of 
the news that a web designer was arrested last week, charged with posting 
an indecent poem on the Internet. Although the incident was not entirely 
unique -- people have been hounded in the past for posting Internet content 
deemed to be offensive to public morals -- the case of Shohdy Naguib, 
Al-Ahram Weekly's 39-year-old web master, is different because it relates 
to freedom of literary expression.
Shohdy Naguib was taken from his home by police in the early hours of 22 
November. He was accused of posting a poem by his late father, Naguib Surur 
-- a renowned poet, playwright, theatrical critic and actor who died in 
1978 -- on a Web site. Naguib denied connection to the site. Although the 
prosecutor ordered his release on bail on the very same day of his arrest, 
Naguib remained in custody until 25 November, three days later.
Naguib agrees. "The Internet is a virtual place where copies of everything 
proliferate. There are no Internet authorities as such, with the exception 
of those whose task is to make the net function. It doesn't have an owner, 
and won't unless a super-power emerges to control it," he told the Weekly. 
Cyberspace, he argued, belongs to all those who participate in it. "We 
cannot let it be a playground where only cats are allowed in and mice are 
banished."
- Al-Ahram Weekly
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

More stuff like this at KillYourTV.com




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 07:09:51 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:09:51 +1100
Subject: Open secret
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230015014.00a54570@pop.useoz.com>


That timmy thinks he's hung like donkey kong yet is actually well below 
average.? Probably,the jerk's nutless anyway so thats academic.No,I refer 
to a teaser in this weeks nude scientist.>>OPEN SECRET: An unbreakable code 
could soon become free for all.Sounds like a nightmare for professional 
spies...<<
Weel sheet! Thats got to be good fucken news! Stale but still NS is a 
conservative mag,digesters reader for scientists.(They still broke the 
anthrax-US govt link.)This issue also has a story on the lost biowarfare 
battle and for Quantum crypto-punks the hope that with superconducting 
cables operating now in Denmark and Detroit and the news of single photon 
emissions in supercooled conditions,the quantum road to crypto-anarchy 
edges ever closer.On this day-1863 -- Russia: Nihilists annihilate Chief of 
Police.1971 -- US: Vietnam veteran antiwar protesters peacefully
end their occupation of the Statue of Liberty.
"The statue of Liberty welcomes innumerable
pilgrims...while it is announced that the center of the
world, which took millennia to shift from the
Euphrates to the Thames, is now on the Hudson River.
In full imperial euphoria the United States
celebrates...but novelist Mark Twain, the old spoilsport,
proposes changing the national flag: the white stripes
should be black, he says, & the stars should be skulls
& crossbones."
1973 -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn publishes Gulag
Archipelago.
"One word of truth shall outweigh the whole world."
1984 -- Straw That Broke...?: Sam Peckinpah, film
director, rides the high country, of cardiac arrest at 59.

Any of you punks want to go back and get Angel?




From Raymond at fbntech.com  Sun Dec 30 02:20:04 2001
From: Raymond at fbntech.com (Raymond D. Mereniuk)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:20:04 -0800
Subject: BlackNet customers/suppliers needed.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230001821.00a8b5c0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C2E79F5.10679.D34C677@localhost>


On 30 Dec 2001 at 0:19, mattd wrote:

> Subject: dene suline Kanada
> The Dene Suline of Cold Lake: Reasserting aboriginal title and opposing the 
> NATO war machine
> On December 12, 2001, the Dene Suline people of Cold Lake, "Alberta, 
> kanada", are supposed to vote on an offer from the government to give money 
> and land in exchange for Dene territory on which the Primrose Lake Air 
> Weapons Range is located. Primrose Lake is a favored NATO playground, where 
> they have tested out numerous missiles, bombs, weapons and aircraft that 

Primrose Lake is a suspected entry point for the Project Earth Enema.  
The land is pretty much swamp but it is too hilly and cold to be called 
that.  A little further north and the swamps are called Muskeg which are 
basically peat bogs.  Further south, from Lac La Biche and south, the 
land is black earth parkland and suitable for normal agricultural use.  

The French Voyageur who were travelling for the Hudson's Bay 
Company or the Northwest Company pretty much polluted the gene 
pool in the Lac La Biche area in the 1700s.  The aboriginal people 
around Primrose Lake were probably spared some of this gene pool 
pollution as their land was considered so poor the Voyageurs didn't 
bother with direct contact.

While there are some cases of "The White Man" deliberating spreading 
disease in Canada (Kanada is not the correct spelling unless you 
speak like em Kree in Lac La Biche) there are no examples from the 
Primrose Lake region.  In general disease was transmitted by 
incompetence or accident in most areas.  Remember, it was pretty 
much the late 1800s before the concept of gems was accepted as the 
means of disease transmission.  Primrose Lake is off the beaten track 
which is why it was chosen for a weapons range.  As far as weapons 
testing it is nothing special except some cruise missiles with dummy 
warheads were tested years ago.

The oil companies don't discriminate.  For every aboriginal person they 
have screwed they have screwed 10 white people.  While many people 
like to believe natural gas is a clean fuel that only applies to its use and 
not its production.

> peacefully on the land that is now the Primrose Lake Air Weapons Range. 
> Through hunting, fishing, trapping, and food gathering, the Dene Suline 
> have sustained themselves as a people in the face of genocide from the 
> kanadian government and NATO. The Dene people live from northern kanada, in 
> "Alberta, Saskatchwan, Manitoba, and Northwest Territories," down to Black 
> Mesa in "Arizona." The U$ and kanadian governments and corporations have 

This is somehow different then the treatment received by aboriginal 
people anywhere else in North American, South America, Australia and 
for that matter anywhere else you care to mention.  Look at history,  it 
is always one people conquering another, and guess what - white folks 
do the same to white folks, black folks do the same to black folks and 
name-your-colour does it to the same-color (and probably every other 
color).  Its called history and it happened back then and it happens 
now.  Just check out any current regional conflict.

Why should I feel guilt over what previous generations have done?  
Insects do it, birds do it, mammals do it and people do it.  Even 
dolphins, the breeding heart liberals favourite, kill their competitors.  
Cro-Magnon man displaced Neanderthal man, where do we draw the 
line?  My Romanian relatives had their land taken from them by 
Ukranian imperialists, within the last 100 years, why can't I make a 
claim?  

The Canadian government abuses all of their citizens, why should 
aboriginal people of today get special treatment?  The Canadian 
government doesn't appear to be any worse than the US or Australian 
governments, or for that matter any other government.

I never thought this list was a home for the bleeding heart liberal tree 
hugger crowd.




From decoy at iki.fi  Sat Dec 29 16:34:38 2001
From: decoy at iki.fi (Sampo Syreeni)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:34:38 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Fun with bleach and nail polish remover 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote:

>> Minor correction: /H2H2/ should be /H2O2/, naturally.
>
>Organic peroxides are useful as improvised blasting caps, but otherwise
>much too unstable.

Yes, it's unstable, but what, exactly, is it that makes $H_{2}O_{2}$
organic?

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:decoy at iki.fi, tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
openpgp: 050985C2/025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 07:43:57 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 02:43:57 +1100
Subject: Cell phone urban legends
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230022746.00a5c160@pop.useoz.com>


Phone set to speed dial an answering machine recorded police abusing and 
beating black man in Chicago.Cops fired.
Phone with vibrating silent alarm fished out of young womens rectum in 
Taiwan."We were experimenting"faustine chong said.Then there was the one 
that give's you a splitting Israeli headache.Thats in the archives 
already.(thanks jya.)
SMS,DoCoMo style texting is an official "killer app".All yakuza hitmen now 
check contracts and prices by cellphone now.
Soprano waste management is importing the technology.See New Jersey 
IMC.mattd in OZ used to get regular empty cellphone calls on his 
messagebank.0417 531 548.everytime he said "Kill the President"He wants the 
service reinstated.
Phonecalls on the web were tried by Taylor last year.He called NZ and it 
was like ham radio,with a satellite 1 or 2 second delay.Another net 
revolution but I digress.Faustine please call mattd for aural sex on 03 
5422 7207.check 17 hr timeslip.

  Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through the
spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax system,
through even more direct applications of the right tools at the right times.
When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs.
Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold




From prelaunch at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Dec 29 18:44:42 2001
From: prelaunch at tiscali.co.uk (prelaunch)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 01 02:44:42 GMT Standard Time
Subject: Pre Launch USA Now!
Message-ID: 

Euphony is Pre-Launching in the USA - February 2002


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This email is from Nigel Salmon who wants to share a �Right Time/Right Place� opportunity with you!!! 

All you need to do at this stage is to register an interest on: www.prelaunchusa.com.

and quote 201530404 as the 'Sponsor ID'.

The reason for this email to you is to let you know that Euphony is CURRENTLY in the �Pre-Launch� phase and will launch across the USA in February 2002. 

Euphony Communications Ltd has been operating in the UK & Europe since 1998. It now has the 2nd largest customer base in the UK and is the fastest growing telecommunications company in Europe.

Here Are My Reasons for Registering My Interest

Would you think it makes sense to start a business in which there was:
- No Committment by you
- No Risk to you
- No Cost to you
- That had MASSIVE potential FOR YOU

It made sense to me ��

I decided to become a part of it from the VERY BEGINNING!!!

Other Points You May wish to Consider

Imagine having a large group who will all start on�Launch-Day�

The EUPHONYPRELAUNCH web-site will help you build a�Pre-Launch� team

A group of very successful consultants from the UK called Millionaires In Motion will help build your group

The Euphony CEO is American Dan Robison. Dan previously worked here in America and with his business partner built the 4th largest telecoms company in the USA, so he�s done it before!

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Their vision is to be a global giant

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**** Visit www.prelaunchusa.com for the full Euphony story and pre-register your interest ****  

Our apologies if you are not interested in this opportunity, this is a *one time mailing only*

Happy Holidays from Millionaires In Motion! Make 2002 a year to remember!

Don't forget that we have a business in the UK, Ireland, Belgium and Holland too.
 
 
 


 
    

From jamesd at echeque.com  Sun Dec 30 08:44:11 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:44:11 -0800
Subject: jamesd,Tim Mays lying black dog.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231004423.00a584a0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C2ED3DB.22730.3F9993@localhost>


    --
On 31 Dec 2001, at 0:49, mattd wrote:

> CommieRot! (english) by James 8:00pm Mon Sep 3 '01 
> Anarchists killed more people in Spain than pinochet in 
> Chile.See...http://www.jim.com/world.html Post cut. Yeah,
> but... (english) by Superguy 10:50pm Mon Sep 3 '01 
> ...anarchists only killed bad people.
>
> on James and the Spanish Anarchists (english) by anarcho
> 1:36am Tue Sep 4 '01 anarcho at geocities.com James (who I
> imagine is that wonderfully inventive liar James Donald of
> Usenet infamy) provides a url in which he "exposes" Spanish 
> Anarchism. The following URLs are in reply to such claims: 
> This is a direct reply to James webpages: 
> http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2374/blood.html

In that direct reply McKay confidently announces that I am
lying, and confidently announces that he is refuting my
claims.  He then gives a long list of facts that supposedly
refute my claims, but which actually seem to confirm them,
then confidently announces I have been refuted.

McKay's evidence does not support his claim that Catalonia
was anarchist.  Instead, if his account and interpretation
was true, it would be evidence that Catalonia was a benign
dictatorship reluctantly forced to use a small amount of very
necessary terror by the wickedness and recalcitrance a small
number of those it ruled.

Even if his spin on the book was entirely truthful and
accurate, his version would not show that Catalonia was a
socialist anarchy, it would merely show that the nomenclatura
were wise, good, and popular, that the people were glad to
obey, and that the nomenclatura never executed people without
good cause.

For example in
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2374/govern.html, a sub
page of the above page Ian McKay writes:

: :	Moving on, James Donald presents one of his more 
: :	outrageous statements.
: :	: : 	"then later, their leaders decided in 
: :	: : 	secret, in cheerful defiance of the 
: :	: : 	democratic procedures  to dissolve the 
: :	: : 	militia committee, to officially 
: :	: : 	recreate the state rather than 
: :	: : 	unofficially"

He then rants at great length that I am lying outrageously, 
and that what I say is completely contradicted by the very 
sources that I cite, but after all this ranting concedes:

: :	[...] James Donald is right in that the CNT made 
: :	the decision [...] in violation of its democratic 
: :	principles, since the rank and file were not 
: :	consulted.

 Well if that was one of my more outrageous statements, then 
my less outrageous statements must be holy writ!

Whatever the distinction he is making is, the fact that a
small group of men meeting in secret could casually sweep
away from on high the apparatus of committees that supposedly
represented the masses sounds remarkably like a state, and an
authoritarian and dictatorial state at that. He announces
that I am wrong in some great big important way, but when you
carefully read the alleged errors of my terrible "reign of
error", he is making distinctions so minute that no one could
possibly care, and in many cases distinctions so fine that no
one save himself could possibly understand. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     PKNvlU7GQVVX3qc9kgk+CxLzNMrPSEa/Sq+PWyku
     4TqdHjk0j0xhMqSqBPAkPBS9t6WbTj6Hxk2U1VkQH




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Dec 30 07:10:42 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:10:42 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | "Fast Packet Keying" Improvements to WEP
Message-ID: <3C2F2E72.528CF2AD@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/29/2237218.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From discrete at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Dec 30 08:19:10 2001
From: discrete at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (discrete at EINSTEIN.ssz.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:19:10 -0700
Subject: Discrete Health Aids Fast & Cheap
Message-ID: <200112301631.KAA08530@einstein.ssz.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1349 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Dec 30 07:21:39 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:21:39 -0600
Subject: news.telegraph.co.uk - US missile shortage delays Iraq strike
Message-ID: <3C2F3103.404366AC@ssz.com>


http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/30/wirq30.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/30/ixnewstop.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Dec 30 07:44:51 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:44:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Property 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226173118.00a52080@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> Pulling your dick,yeah,yeah.The question of "property"is one every opponent 
> of CACL should know backwards.

Arguments over 'property' are irrelevant. The issue is 'respect',
'polylateral representation', and 'universal accountability'.

Dogs (and most other 'higher' animals) have an understanding of 'property'
and 'self defence' deeper than most people do (especialy sunder and most 
other CACL's). If you don't believe it then try to take their dog bone
away.

Intelligence (especially the self-appointed kind) isn't all that it's
cracked up to be.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Dec 30 07:48:34 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:48:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Fw: [wwwac] DMCA (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Sims" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 10:55 PM
Subject: [wwwac] DMCA


> On Wednesday 26 December 2001 06:00 pm, David Fenton wrote:
>
> > THIS IS A LIE.
>
> David, you're wrong.  In the U.S. legal system, laws passed supercede
> earlier laws that conflict.  If a law is passed, "it is legal to strangle
> ducks", then it is.  If a new law is passed, "it is illegal to strangle
> ducks", then it is not.  If still another law is passed, "it is legal to
> strangle ducks", then it is once again.  There's no need to explicitly
> delete earlier conflicting laws - although this is sometimes done for the
> sake of tidiness - the later date wins, regardless.
>
> So you're wrong there.  But you're mainly wrong because you don't
> understand the DMCA.  You don't understand how it works, you were fooled
> by the subterfuge involved, which, I might add, was explicitly designed to
> fool, so you can hardly be blamed.
>
> Let's see if an analogy helps.
>
> There is a patch of grass.  It is community grass.  It is green and
> luscious.  Everyone likes to walk on it.  If Congress banned walking on
> it, everyone would be upset.  But certain companies don't want people to
> walk on it.  They get a law passed.  It says: "It is illegal to climb over
> or break down any fence over one foot high, even to get to a patch of
> grass.  It is also illegal to tell anyone else how to climb over or break
> down such a fence."
>
> Today the companies are building fences around almost every patch of grass
> on the planet.  You can still walk on the grass, to be sure - that hasn't
> been outlawed.  You just can't cross a fence to walk on the grass.  And
> most of the grass is surrounded, all the way around, by fences.  Cross a
> fence and you've broken a law.  The law barely even mentions grass,
> doesn't seem to be - on the face of it - much concerned with grass, only
> fences, and yet it nevertheless has kept essentially everyone from walking
> on the grass.
>
> Which is what the companies wanted in the first place.
>
> If you don't understand this analogy, you don't understand the DMCA.  It
> is an extraordinarily powerful and far-reaching law.  If I were to
> continue the analogy, I should go on to describe the possibility of
> putting gates in the fences, and charging admission to pass through the
> gates - walking on the grass is free you see, but passing through the
> fence to get to the grass is not.  Not only is there a turnstile, there's
> also a bouncer at the gates, and if he doesn't like the look of you, you
> can't pass.  Anyone can walk on the grass, but only the people the bouncer
> likes can pass through the gates.  And it's illegal for *anyone* to climb
> the fences, even if they have no other way to walk on the grass.  Think
> about that for a while, and you might see where Ruben and Jay are coming
> from.
>
> Or maybe not.  The DMCA is a nice piece of subterfuge, don't be ashamed if
> you don't understand how it works.  Jay and Ruben are saying "The DMCA
> keeps you from walking on the grass" and you are saying "The DMCA doesn't
> _outlaw_ walking on the grass", which is true, in a very limited sense of
> "true", but basically misleading.  The DMCA is an anti-grass-walking law
> which does not outlaw walking on the grass.
>
>
> --
> Michael Sims
>
>
> ##  "Moving Forward..." Panel now playing: http://www.siliconalley.net/
##
> ##  The World Wide Web Artists' Consortium   ---   http://www.wwwac.org/
##
> ##  To Unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: wwwac-unsubscribe at lists.wwwac.org
##
>




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Dec 30 08:31:44 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:31:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Fw: [wwwac] DVD region codes Ti Powerbook (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ruben Safir" 
To: 
Cc: "Patrick J . Casey" ;
; ; 
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [wwwac] DVD region codes Ti Powerbook


> This was written by a friend of mine.  It's very good.
>
>
>
>
> What is the DMCA?
>
> The Digital Millennium Copyright Act is a law passed by Congress in 1998.
The DMCA was lobbied for by the large movie and music and book and magazine
lead to massive distribution of popular movies, recorded music, books, and
magazines without any payment to the copyright holders.  Under the old
pre-DMCA copyright law, buyers of books, albums, and movie tapes had many
rights:
>
> 1.  You may make copies for your own use.
>
> 2.  You may lend books, albums, and movies to your friends.  You may read
a
> book aloud with your children.  You may invite friends over to dance to
the
> music of your album.  You may view your movie with friends.  You may stand
> in front of a room full of students and read the book, and you and the
> students may talk about the book.
>
> 3.  If you are a library, you may buy one copy of a book, and lend it out
> for free to anyone with a library card.  You may do the same with an album
> and also with a movie.
>
> 4.  You may make copies of parts of the book, the album, and the movie, in
> order to discuss it, to make fun of it, and even incorporate the part in a
> new work.
>
> 5.  You may sell the book, album, or movie to anyone you wish.
>
> 6.  Any time you want to read the book, listen to the music, view the
> movie, you may, without paying one cent more to the copyright holder.  You
> may do these things as often as you want.
>
>
> We call these traditional rights "Fair Use".  But under the DMCA, if the
> book, the music, the movie are in "digital form", you have no Fair Use
> rights:
>
> 1.  You may not make copies for your own use.
>
> 2.  You may not lend books, albums, and movies to your friends.  You may
not
> read a book aloud with your children.  You may not invite friends over to
> dance to the music of your album.  You may not view your movie with
friends.
>  You may not stand in front of a room full of students and read the book,
> and you and the students then talk about the book.  You might be allowed
to
> do some of these things, but only if you get special permission, or else
pay
> the copyright holder.
>
> 3.  If you are a library, you may not buy one copy of a book, and lend it
> out for free to anyone with a library card; rather, you must pay the
> copyright holder every time the book is lent out.
>
> 4.  You may not make copies of parts of the book, the album, or the movie,
> for any purpose, unless you get special permission from the copyright
> holder.
>
> 5.  You may not sell the book, album, or movie to anyone ever.
>
> 6.  Any time you want to read the book, listen to the music, view the
> movie, you may not, unless you pay the copyright holder.
>
>
> What effect will the DMCA have on free public libraries and public
schools?
>
> The Association of American Publishers has declared that they plan to
close
> down all free public libraries.  Yes, I know, this sounds too crazy, but
> the AAP has repeatedly stated in public that this is their intention.
They
> will use the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to do so.  Further, the AAP
> would like to have all use of school library books metered so that they
can
> get paid every time a child borrows a book.  Now, the DMCA does not give
> publishers the right to such unfair over-charging if the book is a paper
> and ink book.  But it does if the book is in digital form.  So the large
> textbook publishers are pushing hard to get paper and ink books out of all
> schools.  Indeed, New York University Dental School now requires that all
> students use only digital textbooks, so that the publishers and the school
> can charge them more than they could if the books were paper and ink
books.
> The publishers want to do the same for all public schools.  That way the
> publishers get paid more, the children cannot freely use the school
> library, and the cost of the public schools goes up, as what they offer
> goes down.  Poor children will no longer have full use of public
libraries,
> nor of their school libraries.
>
>
> What effect will the DMCA have on the personal computer?
>
> Today, many people have a personal computer at home.  Usually this
computer
> is connected to the Internet, and is used to send and receive mail, to
surf
> the Net, to listen to music, to find information, to do many things, and
> even, sometimes, to play movies.  Today your home computer is something
that
> you control.  No one is watching you when you use it.  No publisher, and
no
> secret police.  The DMCA, with further legislation proposed by Senator
> Hollings, and supported by the Association of American Publishers, the
> Recording Industry Association of America, and the Motion Picture
> Association of America, will end your right to private use of your
computer
> in your own house.  This proposed law would require every personal
computer
> sold to have built-in hardware and software whose only purpose is to spy
> upon everything you do on the computer.  Once again, this sounds
> unbelievable, but the movie and record industry associations have already
> tried to get such spy stuff into your computer.  This year the attempt was
> narrowly defeated when programmers around the world found out about it.
They
> will try again next year, and this time, if the Hollings bill passes, they
> will win.  That means, that all personal computers sold after a certain
date
> will have spy stuff in them.  It will be a federal criminal offense to
> attempt to disable the spy machinery.  Why do the big book publishers, the
> big popular music companies, and the big movie companies want to put this
> spyware into your computer?  Because the spyware will allow them to charge
> you a fee every time you read a book, listen to some music, watch a movie
> using your computer.  They also want to know if you try to make a copy of
a
> book, album, or movie, because under the DMCA you are not allowed to do
so.
>
>
> What effect will the DMCA have on the Internet?
>
> Under old copyright law, a copyright holder would have to go to court and
> get a court order to shut down a web site that might be infringing
> copyright.  But under the DMCA, a single letter from the copyright holder
> to your Internet service provider will result in your site being taken
down
> immediately, whether or not any court later finds you in the wrong.  No
> evidence need be presented to any court, nor to any law enforcement
agency.
> This new law has already been used to take down sites that some large
> corporation does not like.
>
> The DMCA goes further though.  The DMCA outlaws open public discussion of
> how to copy files on your own computer.  The excuse here is that such
> discussion might lead to copyright infringement.  The DMCA makes it a
> federal criminal offense to offer for sale utility programs to copy files
> that might be "copy protected".  If old pre-DMCA copyright law were like
> the DMCA, then sale of paper, pencils, pens, ink, cameras, and copy
> machines would be a federal offense also.  At the time the DMCA was passed
> many in Congress and also outside Congress were concerned that this
> provision of the law would be used to suppress free speech and free market
> competition.  The supporters of the DMCA gave assurances that such use
> would never be made of this absurd part of the DMCA.  Well, in July,
Dmitry
> Sklyarov was arrested, and later indicted on five counts of violating the
> DMCA.  If convicted the faces twenty-five years in prison.  His offense: a
> company he works for sold a program to allow you to copy certain "copy
> protected" files from one computer to another.  The program checks, as
best
> it can, that the user of the program has bought and paid for the files
> being copied.
>
> But the DMCA goes yet further.  Today all movies on DVD disks sold by the
> major movie studios are "copy protected".  Under the DMCA, this gives the
> movie studios the right to tell you that you may view the movie only by
> using certain programs licensed by the DVD Copy Control Association.  Now
> for some operating systems used by millions of people around the world,
> such as GNU/Linux, there is no licensed movie viewing program.  But
> programmers have written movie viewing programs for these operating
> systems.  The DMCA gives the movie studios the power to harass anybody who
> puts up a web page telling where these programs may be obtained.  Right
now
> several people have been hauled into court by the MPAA for just that.
Such
> court cases cost millions of dollars to fight.  So the MPAA can
effectively
> stop competition in the market for movie viewing programs, and it can even
> effectively stop newspapers from reporting even the existence of such
> possibly cheaper and better viewing programs.  Now why does the MPAA want
> such power?  Because without it, you would still have your Fair Use rights
> to view at your pleasure, whenever you want, a DVD movie that you have
> bought and paid for.  Under the DMCA and the Hollings Act, you would have
> to pay a fee every time you wanted to view the movie.
>
> On 2001.12.26 00:16:15 -0500 Ruben Safir wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>They definetely violate the DMCA and their use is and dtrafficing is
considered a felony in the US and coming to a European Counry in near you.
> >>
> >>Same Bat Time, Same Bat Channel....
> >>
> >>
> >>Ruben
> >>
> >>On 2001.12.26 00:05:42 -0500 Patrick J. Casey wrote:
> >>>>angela at bway.net wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm going to be spending several months in Australia & New Zealand.
I'm
> >>>>> taking my Ti Powerbook with me.  I'd like to be able to rent/watch
DVDs
> >>>>> downunder, however Australia is Region 4 and North America is Region
1..
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Could someone please tell me -- or point an online guide out for
me -- how
> >>>>> to re-set a DVD region Code?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, are there any hack that can give me unlimited changes?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Angela
> >>>>>
> --
> __________________________
>
> Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> __________________________
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
> http://www.brooklynonline.com - For the love of Brooklyn
> http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
> http://www.nyfairuse.org - The foundation of Democracy
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and
articles from around the net
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/mp3/hooked.mp3 - Spring is coming....
> http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn....
>
> 1-718-382-5752
>
>
>
>
>
> ##  "Moving Forward..." Panel now playing: http://www.siliconalley.net/
##
> ##  The World Wide Web Artists' Consortium   ---   http://www.wwwac.org/
##
> ##  To Unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: wwwac-unsubscribe at lists.wwwac.org
##
>




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Dec 30 10:32:18 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:32:18 -0800
Subject: cell phone guns
In-Reply-To: <01122920263300.07451@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200112292300.SAA22263@mail.lokmail.net>
 <200112292300.SAA22263@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011230103218.007e6d40@pop.sprynet.com>


At 08:26 PM 12/29/01 -0600, david wrote:
>On Saturday 29 December 2001 05:00 pm, Faustine wrote:
>
>> Hm, whatever works, I guess. Sheer stealth isn't as much a factor for me as
>> is accuracy

I don't think the yugo cellphone .22 has been taken to the range
by an American gun rag yet... "Thunder Ranch (tm) evaluates the 4-shot 
.22lr cellphone from Milosevic Industries"

Obviously stealth was *the* major criterion for that design.


>When George W. was governor 

Ho ho, a Texan.


>That being said, a .22 in your pocket beats a .45 you left at home any day.  
>I carry a North American Arms five shot mini revolver in my front pocket.  

In Calif you can't buy these as of last year, and 'deceptive' packaging
(like a wallet gun) is illegal.  They boil frogs slowly here.

IANAL




 






  







From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Sun Dec 30 09:28:10 2001
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:28:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: What is a 'right'?
Message-ID: 



A 'right' is an activity that any individual could engage in (at least in
principle) while 'in a state of nature'.

So what does 'in a state of nature' imply? It implies human activity a
priori to the concept of 'civilization'.

What are the limits of such activities? Isolation, sharing, and force.

The concept of 'force' is required because not all individuals want to
share.

Isolation allows an individual to engage in any desired activity for the
simple reason there is no potential interference.

Sharing, such as in a family group, such that resources are distributed
but at the same time have more persons active in its 'management' (I draw
a distinction here becuase of such things as Clovis Point behaviour).

And finaly, force. The ability of one individual to significantly impact
anothers physical being directly.

Why do people institute 'civilization'? Because we can't live in
isolation. There are groups greater than families. And finaly, because not
all individuals will use force in the same manner.

The concept of 'right' is intimate and irremovable from the concept of
'coercion through physical force'. Why? Because one can't have a 'right'
unless one also has the ability to use force to defend it.

What does it take to use 'force'? Existance and motivation/desire,
irrespective of whether we talk of 'a state of nature' or 'civilization'.

One can not remove the concept of 'right' from 'force'. They are not
seperate concepts or entities (similar to momentum).

The only way to mitigate the use of 'force' is to mitigate 'desire'.

The only way to mitigate 'desire' is to use 'force' (or at least make it
clear that if a behaviour is engaged in force will ensue).

To do this we institute a (hopefully) common system whereby the inter play
between 'force' and 'desire' are hopefully balanced.

Note that there is nothing in nature which implies that force and desire
will be mitigated in and of themselves (so much for CACL philosophy). In
fact, if one looks at game theory it becomes abundently clear, even given
the utility of game theoretic concepts, that the best strategy is not to
play by the rules given a choice (this helps explain why non-sentient
biological activity conforms to game theory in many cases).

This of course destroys any concept of 'utopia' where everyone plays by
the same rules all the time without exception.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 18:12:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:12:20 +1100
Subject: REAL LIVE RED BLOODED ANARCHY
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230130823.00a56eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Anarchy: Revolution is the Solution.
by Vigil ANti 11:40am Sat Dec 29 '01 (Modified on 4:16pm Sat Dec 29 '01)
Reform is ineffective and only serves to further strengthen the Complex. 
Anarchy holds many ideas worth considering in the quest towards a sane world.
A.1 What is anarchism?
Anarchism is a political theory which aims to create anarchy, "the absence 
of a master, of a sovereign." [P-J Proudhon, What is Property , p. 264] In 
other words, anarchism is a political theory which aims to create a society 
within which individuals freely co-operate together as equals. As such 
anarchism opposes all forms of hierarchical control - be that control by 
the state or a capitalist - as harmful to the individual and their 
individuality as well as unnecessary.
In the words of anarchist L. Susan Brown:
"While the popular understanding of anarchism is of a violent, anti-State 
movement, anarchism is a much more subtle and nuanced tradition then a 
simple opposition to government power. Anarchists oppose the idea that 
power and domination are necessary for society, and instead advocate more 
co-operative, anti-hierarchical forms of social, political and economic 
organization." [The Politics of Individualism, p. 106]
However, "anarchism" and "anarchy" are undoubtedly the most misrepresented 
ideas in political theory. Generally, the words are used to mean "chaos" or 
"without order," and so, by implication, anarchists desire social chaos and 
a return to the "laws of the jungle."
This process of misrepresentation is not without historical parallel. For 
example, in countries which have considered government by one person 
(monarchy) necessary, the words "republic" or "democracy" have been used 
precisely like "anarchy," to imply disorder and confusion. Those with a 
vested interest in preserving the status quo will obviously wish to imply 
that opposition to the current system cannot work in practice, and that a 
new form of society will only lead to chaos. Or, as Errico Malatesta 
expresses it:
"since it was thought that government was necessary and that without 
government there could only be disorder and confusion, it was natural and 
logical that anarchy, which means absence of government, should sound like 
absence of order." [Anarchy, p. 12].
Anarchists want to change this "common-sense" idea of "anarchy," so people 
will see that government and other hierarchical social relationships are 
both harmful and unnecessary:
"Change opinion, convince the public that government is not only 
unnecessary, but extremely harmful, and then the word anarchy, just because 
it means absence of government, will come to mean for everybody: natural 
order, unity of human needs and the interests of all, complete freedom 
within complete solidarity." [Ibid., pp. 12-13].
This FAQ is part of the process of changing the commonly-held ideas 
regarding anarchism and the meaning of anarchy.
A.1.1 What does "anarchy" mean?
The word "anarchy" is from the Greek, prefix an (or a), meaning "not," "the 
want of," "the absence of," or "the lack of", plus archos, meaning "a 
ruler," "director", "chief," "person in charge," or "authority." Or, as 
Peter Kropotkin put it, Anarchy comes from the Greek words meaning 
"contrary to authority." [Kropotkin's Revolutionary Pamphlets, p. 284]
While the Greek words anarchos and anarchia are often taken to mean "having 
no government" or "being without a government," as can be seen, the strict, 
original meaning of anarchism was not simply "no government." "An-archy" 
means "without a ruler," or more generally, "without authority," and it is 
in this sense that anarchists have continually used the word. For example, 
we find Kropotkin arguing that anarchism "attacks not only capital, but 
also the main sources of the power of capitalism: law, authority, and the 
State." [Op. Cit., p. 150] For anarchists, anarchy means "not necessarily 
absence of order, as is generally supposed, but an absence of rule." 
[Benjamin Tucker, Instead of a Book, p. 13] Hence David Weick's excellent 
summary:
"Anarchism can be understood as the generic social and political idea that 
expresses negation of all power, sovereignty, domination, and hierarchical 
division, and a will to their dissolution. . . Anarchism is therefore more 
than anti-statism . . . [even if] government (the state) . . . is, 
appropriately, the central focus of anarchist critique." [Reinventing 
Anarchy, p. 139]
For this reason, rather than being purely anti-government or anti-state, 
anarchism is primarily a movement against hierarchy. Why? Because hierarchy 
is the organizational structure that embodies authority. Since the state is 
the "highest" form of hierarchy, anarchists are, by definition, anti-state; 
but this is not a sufficient definition of anarchism. This means that real 
anarchists are opposed to all forms of hierarchical organization, not only 
the state. In the words of Brian Morris:
"The term anarchy comes from the Greek, and essentially means 'no ruler.' 
Anarchists are people who reject all forms of government or coercive 
authority, all forms of hierarchy and domination. They are therefore 
opposed to what the Mexican anarchist Flores Magon called the 'sombre 
trinity' -- state, capital and the church. Anarchists are thus opposed to 
both capitalism and to the state, as well as to all forms of religious 
authority. But anarchists also seek to establish or bring about by varying 
means, a condition of anarchy, that is, a decentralized society without 
coercive institutions, a society organised through a federation of 
voluntary associations." ["Anthropology and Anarchism," Anarchy: A Journal 
of Desire Armed, no. 45, p. 38]
Reference to "hierarchy" in this context is a fairly recent development -- 
the "classical" anarchists such as Proudhon, Bakunin and Kropotkin did use 
the word, but rarely (they usually preferred "authority," which was used as 
short-hand for "authoritarian"). However, it's clear from their writings 
that theirs was a philosophy against hierarchy, against any inequality of 
power or privileges between individuals. Bakunin spoke of this when he 
attacked "official" authority but defended "natural influence," and also 
when he said:
"Do you want to make it impossible for anyone to oppress his fellow-man? 
Then make sure that no one shall possess power." [The Political Philosophy 
of Bakunin, p. 271]
As Jeff Draughn notes, "while it has always been a latent part of the 
'revolutionary project,' only recently has this broader concept of 
anti-hierarchy arisen for more specific scrutiny. Nonetheless, the root of 
this is plainly visible in the Greek roots of the word 'anarchy.'" [Between 
Anarchism and Libertarianism: Defining a New Movement]
We stress that this opposition to hierarchy is, for anarchists, not limited 
to just the state or government. It includes all authoritarian economic and 
social relationships as well as political ones, particularly those 
associated with capitalist property and wage labor. This can be seen from 
Proudhon's argument that "Capital . . . in the political field is analogous 
to government . . . The economic idea of capitalism . . . [and] the 
politics of government or of authority . . . [are] identical . . . [and] 
linked in various ways. . . What capital does to labor . . . the State 
[does] to liberty . . ." [quoted by Max Nettlau, A Short History of 
Anarchism, pp. 43-44] Thus we find Emma Goldman opposing capitalism as it 
involved people selling their labor and so ensuring that "the worker's 
inclination and judgement are subordinated to the will of a master." [Red 
Emma Speaks, p. 36] Forty years earlier Bakunin made the same point when he 
argued that under the current system "the worker sells his person and his 
liberty for a given time" to the capitalist in exchange for a wage [Op. 
Cit., p. 187].
Thus "anarchy" means more than just "no government," it means opposition to 
all forms of authoritarian organization and hierarchy. In Kropotkin's 
words, "the origin of the anarchist inception of society . . . [lies in] 
the criticism . . . of the hierarchical organizations and the authoritarian 
conceptions of society; and . . . the analysis of the tendencies that are 
seen in the progressive movements of mankind." [Kropotkin's Revolutionary 
Pamphlets, p. 158] Thus any attempt to assert that anarchy is purely 
anti-state is a misrepresentation of the word and the way it has been used 
by the anarchist movement. As Brian Morris argues, "when one examines the 
writings of classical anarchists. . . as well as the character of anarchist 
movements. . . it is clearly evident that it has never had this limited 
vision [of just being against the state]. It has always challenged all 
forms of authority and exploitation, and has been equally critical of 
capitalism and religion as it has been of the state." [Op. Cit., p. 40]
And, just to state the obvious, anarchy does not mean chaos nor do 
anarchists seek to create chaos or disorder. Instead, we wish to create a 
society based upon individual freedom and voluntary co-operation. In other 
words, order from the bottom up, not disorder imposed from the top down by 
authorities.
A.1.2 What does "anarchism" mean?
To quote Peter Kropotkin, Anarchism is "the no-government system of 
socialism." [Kropotkin's Revolutionary Pamphlets, p. 46]. In other words, 
"the abolition of exploitation and oppression of man by man, that is the 
abolition of private property [i.e. capitalism] and government." [Errico 
Malatesta, "Towards Anarchism," in Man!, M. Graham (Ed), p. 75]
Anarchism, therefore, is a political theory that aims to create a society 
which is without political, economic or social hierarchies. Anarchists 
maintain that anarchy, the absence of rulers, is a viable form of social 
system and so work for the maximization of individual liberty and social 
equality. They see the goals of liberty and equality as mutually 
self-supporting. Or, in Bakunin's famous dictum:
"We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and 
injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." 
[The Political Philosophy of Bakunin, p. 269]
The history of human society proves this point. Liberty without equality is 
only liberty for the powerful, and equality without liberty is impossible 
and a justification for slavery.
While there are many different types of anarchism (from individualist 
anarchism to communist-anarchism -- see section A.3 
 for more details), there has 
always been two common positions at the core of all of them -- opposition 
to government and opposition to capitalism. In the words of the 
individualist-anarchist Benjamin Tucker, anarchism insists on "the 
abolition of the State and the abolition of usury; on no more government of 
man by man, and no more exploitation of man by man." [cited in Native 
American Anarchism - A Study of Left-Wing American Individualism by Eunice 
Schuster, p. 140] All anarchists view profit, interest and rent as usury 
(i.e. as exploitation) and so oppose them and the conditions that create 
them just as much as they oppose government and the State.
More generally, in the words of L. Susan Brown, the "unifying link" within 
anarchism "is a universal condemnation of hierarchy and domination and a 
willingness to fight for the freedom of the human individual." [The 
Politics of Individualism, p. 108] For anarchists, a person cannot be free 
if they are subject to state or capitalist authority.
So Anarchism is a political theory which advocates the creation of anarchy, 
a society based on the maxim of "no rulers." To achieve this, "[i]n common 
with all socialists, the anarchists hold that the private ownership of 
land, capital, and machinery has had its time; that it is condemned to 
disappear: and that all requisites for production must, and will, become 
the common property of society, and be managed in common by the producers 
of wealth. And. . . they maintain that the ideal of the political 
organization of society is a condition of things where the functions of 
government are reduced to minimum. . . [and] that the ultimate aim of 
society is the reduction of the functions of government to nil -- that is, 
to a society without government, to an-archy" [Peter Kropotkin, Op. Cit., 
p. 46]
Thus anarchism is both positive and negative. It analyses and critiques 
current society while at the same time offering a vision of a potential new 
society -- a society that fulfills certain human needs which the current 
one denies. These needs, at their most basic, are liberty, equality and 
solidarity, which will be discussed in section A.2 
.
Anarchism unites critical analysis with hope, for, as Bakunin pointed out, 
"the urge to destroy is a creative urge." One cannot build a better society 
without understanding what is wrong with the present one.
Do you want to know more?




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 19:04:22 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:04:22 +1100
Subject: Hakim May "under suspicion"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230140259.00a5dc30@pop.useoz.com>


SAN DIEGO -- One balmy January evening just after the end of Ramadan, a 
Saudi graduate student named Omar Al-Bayoumi hosted a party to welcome a 
pair of recent arrivals into San Diego's large Muslim community.

The guests -- two dozen men to whom Al-Bayoumi had spread invitations at 
mosques around the city -- squeezed into the newcomers' first-floor garden 
apartment. They feasted on a whole baked lamb, a delicacy provided by their 
host, who circulated with a video camera.

And who were the polite young Saudis who'd moved to town? Nawaf Alhazmi and 
Khalid Almihdhar, two of the hijackers who would commandeer a commercial 
airliner and crash it into the Pentagon.

The party, held in the opening weeks of the new millennium, may be the most 
vivid of many moments during the past two years in which the Muslims of San 
Diego -- apparently unwittingly, with the possible exception of the party's 
host -- embraced two of the conspirators in the worst act of terrorism ever 
committed in the United States.

 From their arrival here in late 1999 until they departed a few months 
before the Sept. 11 attacks, Alhazmi and Almihdhar repeatedly enlisted help 
from San Diego's mosques and established members of its Islamic community. 
The terrorists leaned on them to find housing, open a bank account, obtain 
car insurance -- even, at one point, get a job.

In this way, San Diego is distinct from most other places in the country 
where the 19 hijackers prepared for the attacks. In Florida, New Jersey and 
suburban Washington, the terrorists operated on the margins, relying on 
cheap hotels and rented cars. Here, they burrowed in; Alhazmi was listed in 
the San Diego phone book.

Because the two hijackers forged such visible ties while they lived here, 
the southern edge of California has emerged as a focal point of the federal 
government's massive terrorism investigation. Six Middle Eastern men who 
have lived here have been detained, including college students and an 
engineer for the state's transportation agency. A seventh, Al-Bayoumi, 44, 
the party host,has been held by authorities in England, where he moved this 
year.

In addition to these detentions, FBI agents have conducted "thousands of 
interviews" throughout the city, said William D. Gore, special agent in 
charge of the bureau's San Diego office. According to people who have been 
interviewed, investigators have scoured college campuses, shown up at 
Muslims' homes and workplaces and searched the financial records of at 
least one mosque the hijackers attended.This month,10 young adults from 
Middle Eastern countries were arrested here on alleged student visa 
violations, becoming the first to be charged in a new, nationwide crackdown.

The intensity of the investigation here makes San Diego a useful vantage 
point from which to glimpse the role and treatment of suspects who have 
been ensnared in the government's campaign of detentions, a campaign that 
hasput at least 1,200people in custody nationwide as the Bush 
administration tries to prevent further acts of terrorism.

So far, law enforcement officials have been reluctant to discuss what they 
are learning. Interviews with dozens of community members suggest that most 
of the men caught up in the probe in San Diego shared housing, work or 
prayer with one or both of the hijackers, but little else. It is from these 
connections that investigators have tried to fathom any deeper relationship 
between the community and the terrorists.

Regardless of whether such a relationship is found, the investigation has 
affected people in the community beyond those who have been detained. The 
FBI and local police say they are eager to cooperate with the Middle 
Eastern population, a diverse and largely suburban group that has grown to 
more than 100,000 over the past decade as waves of Somalis, Kurds and 
Christian Iraqis have settled alongside Afghans, Algerians, Iranians, 
Saudis and other earlier immigrants.

Nevertheless, Muslims say the climate since Sept. 11 has been hostile. 
Officials and faculty at local colleges say most students from Middle 
Eastern countries have dropped out and moved home. Attendance at mosques 
has dipped. Many devout Muslim women have stopped wearing head scarves, 
fearful of being conspicuous, and Christian Chaldeans who moved here from 
Iraq have begun to wear large crosses in public, to distinguish themselves 
from Muslims.

Such caution does not appear unwarranted. The San Diego police department 
lists 55 incidents so far that it considers retaliation for the Sept. 11 
attacks. The Islamic Center of San Diego, the largest of the city's 15 
mosques, was struck twice by paintballs. A few days later, someone tossed a 
small bomb wrapped with BBs out front, but it did not explode.

There is a paradox to the anger directed at San Diego's Muslims and to 
Alhazmi and Almihdhar's decision to mingle here: This Islamic community is 
relatively devoid of radicalism, of anti-Western feeling. "The rhetoric, 
the individuals talking about jihad . . . I think it is relatively low," 
said the FBI's Gore.

In fact, investigators believe that the community's very openness, its 
relaxed and diverse nature, made this city of sunshine and beaches 
hospitable terrain for two men in their mid-twenties with poor English and 
a lethal plan.

'They Shocked Me'


If Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar betrayed no hint of their intentions, 
they also made no effort in San Diego to hide their presence.

Their first home here, the dwelling where the welcome party took place, was 
a carpeted, one-bedroom unit in the Parkwood Apartments, a complex in the 
city's Clairemont section that teems with students and other young Muslims. 
It is blocks from the Islamic Center.

It was atthe mosque that the pair noticed an ad posted by a retired 
educator from India who had decided to rent out rooms after he was divorced 
and his children were grown. In September 2000, the two young Saudis began 
paying $300 a month to share a bedroom in the house of Abdussattar Shaikh, 
a courtly man of 65 known as "the doctor" around Lemon Grove, a suburb east 
of the city in which he has lived for more than 20 years.

"They shocked me," Shaikh said, recalling the September day he heard on the 
radio that his former tenants had taken part in the attack on the Pentagon. 
"If I had any hint, I would have tipped off the authorities."

In the three months they lived with him, Shaikh said, they told him they 
were students who had come to learn English. But Alhazmi spoke little 
English, Almihdhar spoke none, and they seemed disinclined to practice, 
even when encouraged by Shaikh, who had run Montessori schools and 
academies for teaching English to foreigners before he retired. Because 
Shaikh is not fluent in Arabic, communications with the two Saudis were clumsy.

Their landlord was unaware that they took a few flight lessons and were 
asked to leave because of their lack of ability. They told him they were 
Bedouin, Arab people of the desert. Shaikh said they never ate at the 
kitchen table, but on the kitchen floor. The young men mainly hung around 
the house. They prayed. They did not watch television, read books or make 
phone calls from home. Nor did they speak of Middle Eastern politics.

But Alhazmi, in particular, asked Shaikh for help -- in composing a 
personal ad on the Internet for a Mexican bride who might be willing to 
convert to Islam, in opening an account to deposit $3,000 at the Bank of 
America's Lemon Grove branch, in shopping for used tires for a car he'd 
just bought. It was the Toyota Corolla that the hijackers of American 
Airlines Flight 77 would leave in a parking lot at Washington Dulles 
International Airport the morning they died.

An accommodating landlord was not the only thing the two hijackers found 
through the city's mosques.

 From another mosque, Masjid Ar-Ribat Al-Islami, Alhazmi got a 
recommendation for a job at a nearby Texaco station and car wash, a 
business whose former owner, a Muslim, was known to help young men in need 
of work. For a month, Alhazmi worked at minimum wage two days a week, 
vacuuming and drying cars.

"He was super nice. . . . He was always on time, which is important with 
me," said the manager at the time, who asked to be identified only by his 
first name, Ed. "He was a quiet guy, nice with customers."

And at the Islamic Center, the pair found an ad on a bulletin board that 
led them to the blue 1988 Corolla, which was being sold by Azzedine Abbadi, 
who lives a few blocks away. "He doesn't know them. He just sold a car," 
Abbadi's wife said.

After they bought the car, the hijackers yet again found what they needed. 
On Feb. 28, 2000, Almihdhar arrived at a branch of the Huggy Bear Insurance 
Agency, which advertises in the Yellow Pages that it welcomes customers 
with international driver's licenses.

When Almihdhar was asked for an address, he did not list his own, according 
to records provided by Ben Huggins, the company's owner. He gave Abbadi's.

A Social Host


Among the people who helped the San Diego hijackers, the one who seems to 
have done the most is Al-Bayoumi, the business student who orchestrated the 
welcoming party.

Exactly how Al-Bayoumi knew Alhazmi and Almihdhar remains obscure, but one 
San Diego source with strong ties to local Muslims said that Al-Bayoumi 
drove to Los Angeles late in 1999 to meet the two young men and "brought 
them down physically in his car."

The San Diego Union-Tribune has reported that Al-Bayoumi found and paid the 
rent for Alhazmi and Almihdhar's unit at the Parkwood Apartments, where he 
also lived at the time. A manager for the complex declined to comment. A 
spokeswoman for Parkwood did not return telephone messages.

Al-Bayoumi struck people as highly social. He attended many of the city's 
mosques and made a wide network of acquaintances. He identified himself as 
a graduate student, but people were unclear about what he was studying.

He somehow knew an affluent man in Saudi Arabia who in 1997 gave $545,000 
to a group of poor Kurds in San Diego who wanted a larger building for 
their mosque. The benefactor gave the gift on the condition that Al-Bayoumi 
become the new building's maintenance manager, according to several people 
familiar with the transaction.

"He was a representative of the [donor]," said A. Halim Mostafa, a Kurd who 
has lived in San Diego for 23 years, owns a security business and was 
suspicious of the gift. "Why suddenly this money came, and this [Saudi] 
gentleman [Al-Bayoumi] entered the non-Arab [Kurdish] community?"

Earlier this year, Al-Bayoumi moved to Birmingham, England, with his wife 
and four children.

On Sept. 21, British authorities arrived at his door. After taking 
Al-Bayoumi to a West London police station, investigators took control of 
his house and another one where he had lived in recent months, next door to 
a Birmingham mosque. They ripped up floorboards, excavated the gardens and 
dismantled a picket fence to dig beneath the posts. Neighbors watched as 
police carried away plastic bags filled with unspecified evidence and 
hauled away his aging silver BMW.

But Al-Bayoumi was released after a week, the maximum permitted under 
Britain's anti-terrorism law. He remains in Birmingham today. Soft-spoken, 
wearing a wool sweater and jeans, he was working on a research paper 
earlier this month in a tidy 12th-floor office at Aston University's 
business school.

He declined to discuss whether he paid for the hijackers' first San Diego 
apartment or why he gave them a party. "I can't talk about the situation," 
he said in flawless English. "If you need anything, call my embassy. I 
don't have anything to hide."

Asked whether his difficulties with the British authorities were through, 
he replied: "I'm not sure. I haven't any clue."

It is unclear whether Al-Bayoumi has been rearrested. A week ago, British 
authorities detained eight foreigners under a strict, new anti-terrorism 
law. Sources said the arrests included two people in Birmingham, but 
several law enforcement and immigration agencies refused to confirm whether 
Al-Bayoumi was among them.

In any case, Al-Bayoumi's material and legal circumstances for most of the 
past few months appear far more comfortable than those of the men who have 
been detained in the United States as part of the San Diego investigation.

Some Detainees Charged


For the most part, these other detainees appear to have been connected to 
Alhazmi and Almihdhar inadvertently, by a web of overlapping addresses and 
work. Like detainees elsewhere in the country, they have been charged with 
immigration violations and, in a few instances, criminal offenses unrelated 
to terrorism. But there is no clear correlation between their proximity to 
the hijackers and how long they've been held.

The engineer for the California Department of Transportation, Zineddine 
Tirouda, 37, lived in the same apartment complex as Al-Bayoumi but never 
met him, according to Tirouda's lawyer, Kenneth Luis Chapman. Omar 
Bakarbashat, 28, a college student from Yemen, worked at the same Texaco 
station as Alhazmi and -- months after the hijackers left -- rented a room 
in Shaikh's house. Another Yemeni student, Ramez Noaman, 27, also roomed 
with Shaikh after the terrorists did.

Now, Tirouda has been charged with conspiring to obtain a false U.S. 
passport. U.S. officials have charged Bakarbashat with overstaying his 
student visa, misusing immigration documents and Social Security fraud. 
Noaman was arrested near Los Angeles and held in New York for two weeks as 
a material witness. All three were unavailable for interviews; attorneys 
said they had no role in the plot.

The other detainees, however, had slightly closer interactions with the 
hijackers.

Yazeed Al-Salmi, 23, is a Saudi student who also briefly lived with Shaikh 
-- after the two hijackers were there. And he shared a car insurance policy 
with Alhazmi so they could save money, according to Randall Hamud, one of 
his lawyers.

According to Hamud, Al-Salmi had wanted to follow the example of his 
father, who attended college in the United States. He is studying 
accounting at Grossmont Community College on a student visa valid through 
next summer, Hamud said. After being arrested in late September at a local 
mosque, he was held as a material witness for two weeks, testified before a 
grand jury in New York, and was released.

Two of Al-Salmi's former roommates also knew the hijackers; in at least one 
case, fairly well.

Mohdar Abdallah graduated from Grossmont and is a junior at San Diego State 
University. He was an assistant manager at the Texaco station where Alhazmi 
briefly worked and was introduced to the hijackers "as someone who was very 
quick with English," said Hamud, who has also represented Abdallah. "That 
was his downfall," because the hijackers found his language skills useful. 
"He saw them more than a few times."

For the last three months, Abdallah has been held on an immigration charge, 
accused of lying on an application for political asylum by claiming to be a 
Somalian refugee even though he is from Yemen and had been living in Canada 
before he moved to the United States.

A former professor at Grossmont said Abdallah was running out of money and 
could not afford to stay in school unless he held a job, which his student 
visa did not permit. "He was struggling to establish himself legally. . . . 
In desperation, he ended up applying for political asylum," said the 
sociology professor, Bachir Idiou, who advises the campus Muslim Student 
Association.

The detention of another Grossmont student, a former roommate and co-worker 
of Abdallah's named Osama Awadallah, illustrates the lengths to which 
federal investigators are going to try to keep young Middle Eastern men in 
custody.

Awadallah, 21, a Jordanian with a green card from the Immigration and 
Naturalization Service, also worked at the Texaco station, according to his 
older brother, Jamal Awadallah, a San Diego salesman who has become an 
American citizen. Their acquaintance was "very casual and very brief," his 
brother says. Yet investigators were intrigued that the name "Osama" and an 
old phone number for him were scribbled on a map inside the Toyota left at 
Dulles on Sept. 11.

Brought before the New York grand jury, Osama Awadallah, handcuffed to a 
witness chair, testified that he knew Alhazmi but said he did not remember 
Almihdhar, according to court documents. Prosecutors then showed him a 
journal he had kept for an English class. In the blue booklet filled with 
his small handwriting, he had mentioned that he knew both of them. He later 
told the grand jury his initial testimony had been confused; he has been 
charged with lying before the grand jury.

The teacher for whom he kept the journal thinks it is inconceivable he was 
part of a terrorist plot. Her student was young, naive and "very 
in-your-face" in his Islamic fervor, recalled the teacher, who asked not to 
be named. But he went to her distraught, after the attacks, telling her he 
was worried they would give his religion "a black eye."

"Was he a fanatical Muslim? Yes. Did he know the two hijackers? Yes," the 
teacher said. "But did he come to the United States for criminal or 
terrorist purposes? I don't think so."

Awadallah was held in solitary confinement for nearly three months at New 
York's Metropolitan Correctional Center. According to court documents filed 
by one of his lawyers, Jesse Berman, a guard threw shoes at Awadallah's 
head while he was held temporarily in an Oklahoma City jail, and a guard in 
New York pushed him into a wall and pulled his hair, forcing him to face an 
American flag.

During the past few weeks, federal judges in New York and in San Diego have 
set bond for Awadallah and Abdallah at $500,000 apiece. Awadallah was 
released on Dec. 13. Abdallah remains in custody, unable to post bond.

Hamud, the lawyer, now finds himself as Abdallah's fundraiser. It is, he 
said, difficult work. Many in the Muslim community, he said, are reluctant 
to give money, fearing such generosity might lead the FBI to their doors. 
Some donated at first, Hamud said, but changed their minds when they 
learned that their names and the source of their money would be reported to 
the court.

First Terrorists, Then FBI


Along with the hidden head scarves and reduced mosque attendance, the 
sluggish fund drive is one of many signs that the Muslims of San Diego are 
unsettled now -- first by the discovery that a pair of terrorists had lived 
in their midst, then by the FBI's interest in their community.

At the Texaco station, Ed, the manager, and his former boss telephoned the 
FBI, deciding it was better to approach the bureau first.

Shaikh, the landlord and retired educator, has been visited repeatedly by 
investigators. In his case, the FBI has deviated from its typical secrecy 
to issue a statement that he is not a suspect.

Still, a vandal ripped the copper nameplate off his front door. One day, a 
group of young men he did not know arrived "with knives to kill me," Shaikh 
said. An acquaintance, who happened to be visiting at the time, recalled 
that he told the men to leave and was thrown to the ground.

Hamud, the lawyer, is one of few people in the local Islamic community who 
have denounced the investigation publicly, contending that it is a form of 
racial targeting and a violation of civil liberties. A telephone caller 
said Hamud was a murderer. Another said a bomb would be delivered to his 
home or his office downtown.

Like many local Muslims, Omar Abdeen, a physician and leader at the Islamic 
Center, is ambivalent. He believes investigators need help in untangling 
the hijackers' plot, and he has been touched by offers of help from local 
religious and political leaders. But he still worries that investigators 
have singled out Muslims unfairly. "Why are we targeted?" he asked. "Just 
because we share the same faith as terrorists claimed to adhere to?"

"Many Muslims come from countries where being interviewed by law 
enforcement is not a good thing," Abdeen said. "That kind of fear stays."

Staff writer Joe Stephens and researcher Margot Williams contributed to 
this report. Stephens reported from Birmingham, England.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Dec 30 14:17:11 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:17:11 -0800
Subject: cell phone guns
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011230141711.008226c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:52 PM 12/30/01 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
>At 7:33 AM -0800 12/29/01, David Honig wrote:
>>Mossad prefers suppressed Berretta .22 which doesn't need racking.
>
>Actually they're fond of using the single action Beretta model 70s in 
>.22lr.  I believe that's what arms designer Gerald Bull was killed 
>with. .

The motivation I understood for the B 22's is that the tip up barrel
means you don't have to rack a slide.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 19:23:31 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:23:31 +1100
Subject: From Argentina to Anarchia!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230141905.00a9beb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.smh.com.au/news/0112/29/world/world100.html
A leading official in the new administration of Argentina's interim 
President Adolfo Rodriguez Saa resigned early today following massive 
street protests that erupted in the centre of the capital.
Police used tear gas and high-pressure water to disperse thousands of 
protesters who gathered at the the Plaza de Mayo, in front of the 
presidential palace, demanding the resignation of top government officials 
accused of corruption in past governments.
On December 20 mass protests at the Plaza de Mayo led to the toppling of 
former president Fernando de la Rua, who was replaced days later by interim 
President Adolfo Rodriguez Saa.
Carlos Grosso, a chief presidential aide resigned hours after the the 
protests started.
Presidential adviser Luis Lusquinos confirmed to reporters early today that 
Rodriguez Saa had accepted Grosso's resignation.
Grosso was one of the least popular figures named to the new government 
because of alleged corruption while he served as mayor of Buenos Aires 
during the presidency of former president Carlos Menem.
Late yesterday and early today thousands of demonstrators across the 
capital spontaneously took to the streets, banging on pots and pans to 
protest the incorporation of allegedly corrupt officials into government, 
as well as continued limits on withdrawing of money from bank accounts.
Argentines are angry because the new government has maintained limits on 
cash withdrawals from the banks to 1,000 pesos (dollars) a month.
Officials also announced that once the restrictions are lifted, term 
deposits will paid out in the new currency - called argentinos - that has 
depreciated even before it hits the streets, further adding to public 
discontent.
http://www.indymedia.org/  and argentina IMC,narconews. for more on...




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 19:27:16 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:27:16 +1100
Subject: Lock and Load High School
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230142550.00a99c20@pop.useoz.com>


DENVER (AP) - The family of slain Columbine student Daniel Rohrbough claims 
a Denver police officer killed the boy as he fled the massacre inside the 
school.
A motion filed Wednesday in federal court said Sgt. Dan O'Shea, a member of 
the SWAT team during the April 20, 1999, shootings, was identified through 
testimony by a school administrator, Celine Marquez, who said O'Shea told 
her two days after the shooting that he feared he may have shot an innocent 
student.
The motion asks a judge to reconsider the dismissal of a lawsuit brought 
against the Jefferson County school district and sheriff's office.
Brian Rohrbough has long claimed his son was shot by a lawman rather than 
by one of the student gunmen firing from inside the school because of the 
angle of his fatal chest wound. In all, 12 students and one teacher at 
Columbine High School in Littleton, a Denver suburb, were killed before 
attackers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed themselves.
According to the motion, O'Shea's handwritten police report stated he shot 
a 9 mm machine gun from the base of a hill on which Rohrbough was shot and 
killed. Rohrbough's wounds were consistent with the student facing downhill 
and O'Shea firing from below, the motion said.
The court papers said Marquez was visiting Westridge Elementary School on 
April 22, 1999, when she encountered O'Shea, whose daughter attended 
preschool at Westridge.
According to the motion, Marquez thanked O'Shea for responding to the 
attack at Columbine. O'Shea broke down crying, saying he had thought he 
might have mistakenly shot an innocent student, the motion said. He told 
her he was relieved to learn that ballistics tests showed none of the 
victims had been struck by police bullets, it said.
Lawyer Barry Arrington, who represents the Rohrboughs, said Wednesday that 
in fact, ballistics tests on the bullets had not been started when O'Shea 
spoke to Marquez. "Someone told Sgt. O'Shea a grievous lie," he said.
O'Shea could not be reached for comment Wednesday, the Rocky Mountain News 
and The Denver Post reported. Denver Deputy Police Chief Dave Abrams said 
Wednesday that he was unaware of the accusation against O'Shea.
"I think it's unlikely," he said. "I would seriously doubt it."
The motion also accuses Sheriff John Stone and his department of making 29 
"blatant, bald-faced lies" about the investigation, including initially 
identifying a bullet recovered from Rohrbough's body as one from Klebold's 
weapon.
Brian Rohrbough said he didn't know about Marquez's story until a few days 
before a federal judge dismissed all but one of the Columbine 
wrongful-death suits last month. After the ruling, he asked Marquez if she 
would give a statement.
Marquez said she frequently told the story of her meeting with O'Shea, and 
"I felt I was relaying a hero's story."
According to the motion, sheriff's deputy Jim Taylor said that a Denver 
police officer was near him in the lower student parking lot during the 
massacre and that he remembers hearing machine gun fire and seeing a boy, 
later identified as Daniel Rohrbough, get shot. 




From schear at lvcm.com  Sun Dec 30 14:32:50 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:32:50 -0800
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: <20011230205540.X60930-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>
References: <20011229115601.GA8712@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011230142634.03a63dc0@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 09:19 PM 12/30/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>
> > I'm unclear why Lucky dislikes the Sectra Tiger (www.sectra.se); the
> > key management is not what I'd like, but seems designed specifically
> > for hierarchical military or corporate organizations, which is the only 
> viable
> > market for a EUR 2500 encrypting cellphone.
>
>The reason why I have little faith in the Sectra Tiger is because I talked
>with one of Sectra's head cryptographers. Below is a brief recap of the
>conversation:



OK, so why don't we pool our funds to encourage the reverse engineering and 
release of source code to a popular PCS/GSM phone which can be readily 
re-flashed and with sufficient resources (or easily augmented) to handle 
this app? I'll donate $100 e-gold to get the fund going.  I'll establish a 
publicly viewable e-gold account to hold other contributions.  The account 
access key can be secret shared among a few fellow CPs.

steve




From freematt at coil.com  Sun Dec 30 11:52:07 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:52:07 -0500
Subject: cell phone guns
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


At 7:33 AM -0800 12/29/01, David Honig wrote:
>Mossad prefers suppressed Berretta .22 which doesn't need racking.

Actually they're fond of using the single action Beretta model 70s in 
.22lr.  I believe that's what arms designer Gerald Bull was killed 
with. .

Regards,  Matt


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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From tcmay at got.net  Sun Dec 30 14:53:15 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:53:15 -0800
Subject: Choices of small handguns
In-Reply-To: <200112292300.SAA22263@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <026E6DFF-FD78-11D5-B1CF-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Saturday, December 29, 2001, at 03:00 PM, Faustine wrote:
> Hm, whatever works, I guess. Sheer stealth isn't as much a factor for 
> me as is
> accuracy, reliability and being able to avoid the "woman with a 
> peashooter"
> image. All rhetoric aside (but with all that in mind) I've actually been
> thinking of getting a 9mm, something along the lines of a Glock 26, a 
> Kahr P9
> or maybe a Sig-Sauer P239. Any thoughts?

Well, I have nearly all of these. Not the MicroGlock, but the others. 
Here are my opinions:

* Kahr K40, a slightly larger .40 S&W variant of the 9mm version. I like 
this the most of all of my small handguns. Stainless steel (*), heavy 
enough to aid accuracy for follow-up shots, double action only (meaning 
nothing to think about, nothing to worry about with de-cocking). Limited 
to 6 rounds (5 in the mag, 1 in the pipe). I bought mine slightly used 
for $450, with 6 mags total. It also has night sights. The 9mm version 
is probably just as nice a version, and holds one more round. There are 
also smaller variants, with names like "Micro K9," or somesuch. Some of 
them are too small in my hand. The K40 fits my hand like a glove: small, 
but not too small, flat, and _dense_.

(* I've heard some claim that stainless steel is not a good idea, as it 
glints in the dark. Perhaps, but this seems like a second-order effect 
for any real use. It is also possible to get it in blackened stainless, 
as the SIGs are commonly in.)

* SIG P239, also in .40 S&W. Like my 229 (bigger, 15 rounds), it shoots 
very well and is flat and concealable. The operation is double action on 
the first pull, single action on subsequent pulls. After the last shot, 
the decocker must be used to lower the hammer. (I think this is a little 
confusing for newcomers, and could cause accidents.) I bought mine used 
for $450, a range rental (with mild range rental loads) with almost no 
visible wear.

* H&K P7, the famous "squeeze-cocker." I had wanted one of these since 
reading about them in 1980, so when H&K was selling a bunch of reworked 
and remarket P7s at a good price ($550 or so), I bought one. Very 
elegant, very unusual. Mine is in 9mm. Very safe, but takes a bit of 
getting used to.

* I have one Glock, a 1986-vintage Model 17, the first ones they 
imported into the U.S. 9mm, 17-18 shots. It does the job, is safe, and 
is a reliable standby. Many people swear by them. A Glock 19 is slightly 
smaller. And then there are the aforementioned Model 26s and 27s (.40, I 
recall).

The Glock 26 would probably be a good choice for a woman, due to the 
smaller hands most women have. 9mm is more than adequate, especially 
when loaded with something like Hydra-Shok or Golden Saber or the like.

I like my Kahr, followed by my H&K P7, followed by my SIGs.

(I also have a full-sized H&K USP .45, and other handguns, of course.)


--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Sun Dec 30 06:26:24 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:26:24 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Fun with bleach and nail polish remover 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> Yes, it's unstable, but what, exactly, is it that makes $H_{2}O_{2}$
> organic?

Hydrogen peroxide is not an organic peroxide. Concentrated hydrogen
peroxide is unstable, and can violently decompose, especially if catalysts
(finely distributed metals, pyrolysite) are present, but it does not
detonate. The usual use for it is for hypergolic rocket fuel (with
unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine).

Organic peroxides is something else entirely. You can make organic
peroxides using hydrogen peroxide, though it is not advisable for laymen.
In fact, due to their instability, it is better not to work with them at
all. Considerable potential for severe or even terminal injury there.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 21:08:00 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:08:00 +1100
Subject: Mini me Memo to Dr Evil
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230160501.00a5b710@pop.useoz.com>


Gonzo Marketing
Winning Through Worst Practices
Christopher Locke
0-7382-0408-0 | Avail 2001-09-21 | Hardcover | 256 pages | $25.00 | 
Business & Management
Ladies and gentlemen, please return your tray tables to the fully upright 
and locked position, suspend your disbelief and put on your tinfoil pyramid 
hats. We are now entering [cue lights, cue music] the Brand Dimension!
Gonzo Marketing is a knuckle-whitening ride to the place where social 
criticism, biting satire, and serious commerce meetand where the outdated 
ideals of mass marketing and broadcast media are being left in the dust. As 
master of ceremonies at the wake for traditional one-size-fits-all 
marketing, Locke has assembled a unique guest list, from Geoffrey Chaucer 
to Hunter S. Thompson, to guide us through the revolution that is rocking 
business today, as people connect on the Web to form powerful micromarkets. 
These networked communities, based on candor, trust, passion, and a general 
disdain for anything that smacks of corporate smugness, reflect much deeper 
trends in our culture, which Locke illuminates with his characteristic wit.
Just as gonzo journalism arose in response to objective news standards 
that claimed to foster fairness but in practice discouraged writers from 
speaking their minds in their own voices, so too does gonzo marketing call 
for a similar response to assumptions about consumer behavior that no 
longer relate to how people actually live their lives.
Gonzo Marketing is not yet-another nostrum for hoodwinking the unwary. Its 
about market advocacy. It describes how the artist formerly known as 
advertising must do a 180. Its about transforming the marketing message 
from we want your money to we share your interests. Its about tapping 
into, listening to, and even forming alliances with emerging on-line 
markets, who probably know more about your company than you do. Its a 
hip-hop cover of boring old best practices played backwards. The paradox is 
that companies that support and promote these communities can have 
everything theyve always wanted: greater market share, customer loyalty, 
brand equity.
Irreverent, penetrating, profoundly simple, and on-the-money, Gonzo 
Marketing is the raucous wake-up that no one interested in any aspect of 
twenty-first century businessfrom the trading floor right up to the 
boardroomcan afford to ignore.
Chris Locke is co-author of The Cluetrain Manifesto, president of Entropy 
Web Consulting, and editor/publisher of the widely acclaimed and justly 
infamous webzine, Entropy Gradient Reversals. He has worked for Fujitsu, 
Ricoh, the Japanese governments Fifth Generation artificial intelligence 
project, Carnegie Mellon Universitys Robotics Institute, CMP Publications, 
Mecklermedia, MCI, and IBM. Named in a 2001 Financial Times Group survey as 
one of the top 50 business thinkers in the world, he has written for a 
wide variety of business and technology publications, including Forbes, The 
Industry Standard, Information Week, Harvard Business Review, and Release 
1.0. He lives in Boulder, Colorado.
He can be reached at clocke at panix.com.
www.gonzomarkets.com




From 069cash at excite.com  Sun Dec 30 17:06:21 2001
From: 069cash at excite.com (mylilculito3)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:06:21
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200112302322.fBUNM9eu025662@ak47.algebra.com>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec 29 22:14:58 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:14:58 +1100
Subject: Bubblegum Crisis 2040
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230171126.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com>


Abhorrent markets may arise. For example, anonymous systems and untraceable 
digital cash have some obvious implications for the arranging of contract 
killings and such. (The greatest risk in arranging such hits is that 
physical meetings expose the buyers and sellers of such services to stings. 
Crypto anarchy lessens, or even eliminates, this risk, thus lowering 
transaction costs. The risks to the actual triggermen are not lessened, but 
this is a risk the buyers need not worry about. Think of anonymous escrow 
services which hold the digital money until the deed is done. Lots of 
issues here. It is unfortunate that this area is so 
little-discussed....people seem to have an aversion for exploring the 
logical consequences in such areas.)
Can crypto anarchy be stopped? Although the future evolution in unclear, as 
the future almost always is, it seems unlikely that present trends can be 
reversed:
Dramatic increases in bandwidth and local, privately-owned computer power.
Exponential increase in number of Net users.
Explosion in "degrees of freedom" in personal choices, tastes, wishes, goals.
Inability of central governments to control economies, cultural trends, 
etc. [9]
The Net is integrally tied to economic transactions, and no country can 
afford to "disconnect" itself from it. (The U.S.S.R. couldn't do it, and 
they were light-years behind the U.S., European, and Asian countries. And 
in a few more years, no hope of limiting these tools at all, something the 
U.S. F.B.I. has acknowledged. [11]
Technological Inevitability: These tools are already in widespread use, and 
only draconian steps to limit access to computers and communications 
channels could significantly impact further use. (Scenarios for 
restrictions on private use of crypto.)
As John Gilmore has noted, "the Net tends to interpret censorship as 
damage, and routes around it." This applies as well to attempts to 
legislate behavior on the Net. (The utter impossibility of regulating the 
worldwide Net, with entry points in more than a hundred nations, with 
millions of machines, is not yet fully recognized by most national 
governments. They still speak in terms of "controlling" the Net, when in 
fact the laws of one nation generally have little use in other countries.)
And as for a camera-filled society, Brin spins out a more positive possible 
future, one already hinted at by the real-life furor surrounding the 
videotape of the Rodney King beating. "Imagine how the social climate of 
our inner cities will change," he says, "when both the cops and ghetto 
youths carry around cheap little shoulder-mounted TV cameras, monitoring 
their encounters in real time. Conviction rates may go up, while illegal 
rousting and hassling of the innocent will certainly go down. 
Accountability goes both ways."
Brin's on such a roll it seems a shame to point out that cameras only have 
power when accompanied by the political and social will to act on the 
information they record. Despite the infamous King videotape, the Simi 
Valley jury still acquitted the accused officers.
But the one thing that freedom needs to survive--and without which it must 
fail--is accountability. In other words, the answer is not masks. It is 
light. Not armor plate, but the light saber."
Brin's espousal of openness and corporate accountability also put him at 
odds with the "techno-libertarian" ethos so prevalent among other 
science-fiction and technology writers such as George Gilder and techie 
organs like Wired magazine.
"Today, we have as many bright young libertarians who believe passionately 
in the mystical power of the market as [there were] bright young college 
graduates transfixed by the persuasive mantras of Marxism in the 1930s," 
Brin says. "Each generation has to learn the hard way that no ideology can 
describe complex human beings, who are both cooperative and competitive by 
nature."
In a similar vein, it would seem that the tug-of-war between privacy and 
openness needn't be an all-or-nothing matter, at least not in a society 
where citizens clamor for "call return" features on their phones (a perfect 
real-world example of Mutual Transparency) while simultaneously asking to 
have unlisted numbers.
"When given a choice between privacy and accountability," observes Brin, 
"most people tend to choose privacy for themselves and accountability for 
others."
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/02.06.97/cover/brin1-9706.html
David Brin has a lot to say and says it discursively, but he's done his 
homework--dipping into an impressive range of social science, 
philosophical, crytographic, and technical literature--thought carefully, 
marshalled compelling arguments seasoned with humor and bright metaphors, 
and, as a result, is worth listening to, arguing with, or simply pondering. 
The Transparent Society works out, with much supporting detail, ideas about 
secrecy and privacy first raised in Brin's magisterial novel, Earth, and 
does so in a civilizational context. I risk doing Brin and his book grave 
injustice by oversimplifying, but let me say Brin views "accountability" 
and "criticism" as central to the progress of neo-Western civilization 
(fight the power!) and further posits that criticism works very like 
T-cells in an immune system, providing (to a greater and greater extent as 
the collective grows in knowledge) autonomous and impersonal correctives 
against all manner of "error." Brin argues for greater informational 
transparency--almost total disclosure--observing that, if universal 
surveillance cameras and other snoop technologies are inevitable (and they 
almost certainly are), then a generalized oversight capability, or a mutual 
surveillance capacity (in other words, my ability to watch the government 
with the same technologies that the government can watch me) is the answer 
to the classic question, quis custodiet ipsos custodes (who shall guard the 
guardians?)? In short, we all will. Brin's ingenious argumentation may 
strike some readers as cavalier or reductionist. It's not. It's serious and 
is, moreover, and a serious response to flamewar proponents of "encryption 
as the answer" to the privacy dilemmas of the wired age
Suppose that the cost of surveillance technology continues to fall. What 
are our options?

(a) try to ban certain types of surveillance technologies altogether

(b) try to restrict surveillance technologies so that "we" have it but 
"they" don't

(c) try to escape surveillance technology by using encryption

(d) try to encourage broad access to surveillance technology

David Brin argues persuasively that (d) is the least problematic solution. 
The other strategies are both more difficult to execute and less likely to 
produce a desirable outcome. For example, with (c) you have the problem 
that encryption may not be perfectly reliable. Moreover, even if you can 
encrypt your bits, you cannot encrypt your atoms. So you still may be 
subject to surveillance by a network of cameras, by centralized databases, etc.
The greatest strength of the book is the way that Brin analyzes the 
situation from the perspective of different opponents to his position. The 
greatest weakness is that he rarely delves into details about how to 
implement his overall recommendation. What incentives need to be created? 
How do laws need to be changed, etc.? He offers hints, and occasional 
examples, but leaves a lot out.
The relevance of this book has increased dramatically as a result of the 
terrorist attacks of September 11. For example, on p. 320 there is this 
passage:
"Terrorists operate under cloaks of anonymity and secrecy...This is 
especially true of their concealed finances...the real impulse to force 
them open may only come after some band of terrorists manages to kill 
thousands..."
What Brin advocates is not a stronger police state but a more open system 
that allows any citizen to trace how money flows. Thus, although he would 
agree with the national security establishment that secret bank accounts 
are a problem, he would part ways with the establishment in that he would 
not give the police special privileges to examine bank transactions. 
Instead, he would expose such transactions to anyone.
This is just one of many interesting ideas in this provocative book
This is a great book. Its well researched and takes issues a step further 
for analysis. But, I do think that some of his solutions will not work in 
the real world.
The basic premise of the book is that privacy and freedom are not 2 sides 
of the same coin. He goes on to explain, giving various examples, that if 
we lose our freedom, we will have no privacy left to defend. But, if we 
have our freedom, we will be in a position to demand some privacy.
His solution is to have complete transparency i.e. shine the light in both 
the directions...from the govt. towards the people and vice versa. He 
explains how this will work wonders and solve various problems and he 
analyzes each problem in detail. Although he has suggestions on how to do 
it, he does NOT have any concrete method to make the govt or other power 
houses to be accountable. Thats where accountability and transparency 
fail.(+ APster succeeds)




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Dec 30 18:02:49 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:02:49 -0800
Subject: Choices of small handguns
In-Reply-To: <026E6DFF-FD78-11D5-B1CF-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <200112292300.SAA22263@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011230180249.007e5b20@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:53 PM 12/30/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>(* I've heard some claim that stainless steel is not a good idea, as it 
>glints in the dark. Perhaps, but this seems like a second-order effect 
>for any real use. It is also possible to get it in blackened stainless, 
>as the SIGs are commonly in.)

I've heard that (presumably early) stainless was subject to 
galling, presumably fixed.  IANAMetallurgist.

As far as specular reflection goes, consider how many wear
shiny watches which would be largely in the plane of the slide.


dh




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Dec 30 18:07:58 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:07:58 -0800
Subject: cell phone guns
In-Reply-To: <3C2FC108.27BB6E21@cybershamanix.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011230141711.008226c0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011230180758.0081b160@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:37 PM 12/30/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>     This makes little sense. There are a great many .22 pistols which
>have external hammers or an sufficient safety. Why would you have to
>rack a slide, other than when you first loaded. With most, if not all,
>semi-auto handguns, you always carry a round in the chamber anyway, for
>one, to be ready, for two because it's one more round. 
>     Nobody, but nobody, walks around with an empty chamber, whatever
>the caliber. 
>

Ok.  I have no personal knowledge.  Fentanyl squirts in the ear
are subtler unless you're busted.




From JonathanW at gbgcorp.com  Sun Dec 30 18:57:33 2001
From: JonathanW at gbgcorp.com (Jonathan Wienke)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:57:33 -0800
Subject: Choices of small handguns
Message-ID: <91A43FE1FA9BD411A8D200D0B785C15E3655BC@MISSERVER>


I have a Para-Ordnance P10.45, a 1911 variant with a double-stack 10 rd magazine and a shortened grip. it is a little on the wide side for true concealed carry, but it is very compact and 10 rounds of 45 ACP is sufficient for most concealed carry tasks. I have the steel version, and I like it very much. It has a chunky feel to it and is surprisingly controllable and accurate for such a small gun. It shoots comfortably, too at least with the Hogue grip I put on it. It's well worth considering for a CCW.




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sun Dec 30 17:37:02 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:37:02 -0600
Subject: cell phone guns
References: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011230141711.008226c0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3C2FC108.27BB6E21@cybershamanix.com>


     This makes little sense. There are a great many .22 pistols which
have external hammers or an sufficient safety. Why would you have to
rack a slide, other than when you first loaded. With most, if not all,
semi-auto handguns, you always carry a round in the chamber anyway, for
one, to be ready, for two because it's one more round. 
     Nobody, but nobody, walks around with an empty chamber, whatever
the caliber. 


David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 02:52 PM 12/30/01 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> >At 7:33 AM -0800 12/29/01, David Honig wrote:
> >>Mossad prefers suppressed Berretta .22 which doesn't need racking.
> >
> >Actually they're fond of using the single action Beretta model 70s in
> >.22lr.  I believe that's what arms designer Gerald Bull was killed
> >with. .
> 
> The motivation I understood for the B 22's is that the tip up barrel
> means you don't have to rack a slide.


-- 
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 00:43:19 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:43:19 +1100
Subject: Old Hobbits die hard.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230194218.00a9a880@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=01/12/26/6849756
Josi Bovi
A French farmer who dismantled a McDonalds
By Florence Williams, Outside
The accused threads his way up the steps of the stone Palais de Justice in
the ancient French city of Montpellier. He has receding sandy hair and a
comically long walrus mustache, wears a little yellow neck scarf, and
clutches a pipe. Muscular young activists in yellow T-shirts escort him
past dozens of aggressive TV cameramen, all jockeying for a better angle.
Halfway up the stairs, the defendant turns, smiles into the cameras, and
gazes over the several hundred protesters gathered on the street below. He
gives a thumbs-up and pumps his fist. The crowd goes wild. Their hero is,
with the possible exception of President Jacques Chirac, Frances most
famous political personality. His name is Josi Bovi. He makes cheese.
It is the morning of February 15, 2001, and Bovi, 47, and his nine
(virtually unnoticed) co-defendants are appealing their sentences for
criminal vandalism convictions, charges resulting from a 1999 protest in
which a McDonalds under construction just outside the farming village of
Millau was disassembled, bolt by bolt, and carted away. Bovi, sentenced to
three months in prison, is unapologetic. He took apart the McDonalds to
protest American imperialism, its trade policies, and the general, noxious
spread of malbouffe. Malbouffe, Bovi has said, "implies eating any old
thing, prepared in any old way . . . both the standardization of food like
McDonaldsthe same taste from one end of the world to the otherand the
choice of food associated with the use of hormones and GMOs [genetically
modified organisms], as well as the residues of pesticides and other things
that can endanger health."
Read more




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Dec 30 17:48:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:48:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CFP: PKI research workshop (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:01:30 -0700
From: lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com
To: Ray Dillinger , crawdad at fnal.gov,
    cryptography at wasabisystems.com,
    Peter Gutmann , spki at wasabisystems.com
Subject: Re: CFP: PKI research workshop


somewhat as an aside .... the "gift" cards (and other flavors) that you see
at large percentage of retail check-out counters in the US are effectively
digital cash ... although the current incarnation results in a different
card at every retailer. however, they are online, magstripe-based digital
cash .... utilizing the same ubquituous point-of-sale infrastructure as
debit & credit (it is just that the transaction routing goes to different
online transaction processing than credit & debit). The issue of whether or
not it would be possible to use any card at any merchant is more of a
business rule issue than a technology issue.

note from a higher assurance standpoint ... the x9.59 work is applicable to
all electronic transactions .... whether they are credit, debit, e-check,
OR (online)  digital cash ... AND x9.59 transactions could flow over both
existing ubiquituous point-of-sale network and/or a ubiquituous internet
network (or any other kind of network).

random refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#x959
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/index.html#aads



lynn.wheeler at firstdata.com on 12/28/2001 4:50 pm wrote:

A "local" financial branch implementation and a digital cash implementation
might have a number of similar useability attributes .... aka from the
standpoint of how local funds do you have immediately available .... aka
funds are transferred into you local PDA as digital cash for immediate use
.... or funds are transferred into the local financial institution for
immediate use.






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From david at morningwood.net  Sun Dec 30 18:01:02 2001
From: david at morningwood.net (david)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:01:02 -0600
Subject: cell phone guns
In-Reply-To: <3C2FC108.27BB6E21@cybershamanix.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20011230141711.008226c0@pop.sprynet.com> <3C2FC108.27BB6E21@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <01123020010200.17320@localhost.localdomain>


On Sunday 30 December 2001 07:37 pm, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>      Nobody, but nobody, walks around with an empty chamber, whatever
> the caliber.

Last I heard the Isreali military still did.  An empty chamber was US 
military standard carry until the switch from 1911 the Beretta.  The military 
was the last to hear about the Modern Technique of the Pistol.

David Neilson




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 01:01:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:01:42 +1100
Subject: LA Law.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230200043.00a9d1d0@pop.useoz.com>


Nic Clyde and Stuart Lennox flew out of Australia yesterday in time for a 
New Year's Eve party in Los Angeles. But unlike other revellers, few at the 
party will be making plans for 2002.
The two Australians, along with 13 other Greenpeace activists, face an 
uncertain future. On January 8, they front a federal court jury in Los 
Angeles charged with felonies, one of which carries a maximum jail term of 
six years.
In July, the FBI arrested the activists and two freelance journalists after 
they delayed the test of the Bush administration's controversial Star Wars 
anti-missile defence system. Opponents of the system claim it will increase 
the likelihood of nuclear war.
They were charged with conspiring to violate a safety zone and entering a 
military zone without permission after swimmers on boogie boards went 
ashore at the Vandenberg Airforce Base in California. The US coastguard 
chased other activists in inflatable dinghies.
Mr Clyde, 32, who is on bail but was allowed home for Christmas, said the 
last few days had been stressful.
"I don't know how long it's going to be before I see my family and friends 
again," he said. "I guess I'm psychologically preparing for the eye of the 
storm in LA."
Mr Lennox, 43, has also been preparing for his time away from Australia. 
Christmas was "a quiet day", during which he "cleared stuff away" at his 
home in Murdunna, near Port Arthur.
He said it was "a difficult time", because he was unable to meet up with 
his partner, who is in Japan.
Mr Clyde's brother, Ian, a Melbourne lawyer with experience in human rights 
law, said his family supported his brother's stance but were worried about 
his future.
"It upsets and distresses us that Nic might have to languish for months in 
a penitentiary, simply for a peaceful protest," he said.
Ian Clyde, who along with other family members has written letters to 
federal politicians to highlight the men's plight, believes the charges are 
disproportionate to the men's actions.
"It seems to me very unlikely that if the shoe was on the other foot, and 
it was a bunch of Americans who were conducting these sorts of protests 
over something we were doing, I very much doubt that we would have treated 
the Americans in the same way," he said.
He said it is difficult to predict the outcome of the trial because of the 
political climate in the US following the September 11 terrorist attacks.
The trial was originally set for November 20, but was delayed because 
defence lawyers believed it may have been difficult to obtain a fair 
hearing. It is widely seen as a test of how the US now responds to civil 
disobedience.
Despite their arrest, the pair said they had been buoyed by support from 
the leader of the Greens, Bob Brown, who drafted a Senate motion earlier 
this year urging the men's speedy return to Australia. The ALP and 
Democrats supported the motion. The Catholic Bishop of Canberra, Pat Power, 
and trade unions have also offered support.
The men remain committed to protesting against the use of nuclear weapons.
Mr Lennox, a Greenpeace activist for more than 10 years, said while he was 
in California he visited a Buddhist temple on Hiroshima Day and was struck 
by the message contained in a survivor's story.
"She said, 'I'm going to die soon. It's up to you people to make sure this 
doesn't happen (again)'," Mr Lennox said.
The trial is expected to last about four weeks.
http://theage.com.au/news/national/2001/12/30/FFXRQKY9SVC.html Photo.




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Dec 30 12:19:29 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:19:29 +0100 (CET)
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: <20011229115601.GA8712@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <20011230205540.X60930-100000@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to>


On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Ryan Lackey wrote:

> I'm unclear why Lucky dislikes the Sectra Tiger (www.sectra.se); the
> key management is not what I'd like, but seems designed specifically
> for hierarchical military or corporate organizations, which is the only viable
> market for a EUR 2500 encrypting cellphone.

The reason why I have little faith in the Sectra Tiger is because I talked
with one of Sectra's head cryptographers. Below is a brief recap of the
conversation:

Lucky:	How did Secrta solve the key distribution problem in the military
version of your product adopted by the Swedish army?

Sectra:	We are using a central key server.

Lucky:	How does the system respond to a failure of the central key
server?

Secrta:	The hansets revert to a system-wide default key installed in the
handset at time of manufacture. The key is idential for all handsets.

Lucky: [Pause]. I see... Do you believe that a communication
system that depends for its security on the enemy ignoring your central
key server to be suitable for military applications? What if somebody
destroys the key server?

Secrta: [Visibly surprised by the question]. But we live in times of
peace! Why would anybody wish to destroy the key server?

Lucky:	Right..... [I guess they no longer shoot military
suppliers who's products endanger the armed forces for treason].

-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted
email preferred.




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Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:29:57 -0600
Subject: 50% OFF Most Responsive Email Lists
Message-ID: <200112310337.VAA13041@einstein.ssz.com>


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From wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net  Sun Dec 30 20:02:10 2001
From: wmo at rebma.pro-ns.net (Bill O'Hanlon)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:02:10 -0600
Subject: Stalled post to cypherpunks
In-Reply-To: <83CF4DAC-FD93-11D5-B1CF-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <200112302312.fBUNC5j37694@cryptofortress.com> <83CF4DAC-FD93-11D5-B1CF-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011231040210.GA77314@rebma.pro-ns.net>



Please allow me to apologize -- I'm considering replacing the 
ds.pro-ns.net CDR node.  "cryptofortress.com" is mine, and I had believed
I only had it set up to forward cypherpunks postings to a testing list
while I worked on the details.  Obviously, this was not the case,
and I have deactivated it while I look for the cause of the problem.

I realize that mailing lists doing this sort of thing is irritating,
and I'll try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

-Bill



On Sun, Dec 30, 2001 at 06:10:08PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> 
> 
> Whomever "cryptofortress.com" is, I strongly suggest they get with the 
> program.
> 
> I didn't send my message to their address, except as the lne.com site 
> sent it along. To send  a bounce or "requires the approval of" message 
> to me (and I suspect, to many others) is broken.
> 
> First few paragraphs included below.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> 
> On Sunday, December 30, 2001, at 03:12 PM, cypherpunks-
> owner at cryptofortress.com wrote:
> 
> > Your message to cypherpunks has been delayed, and requires the approval
> > of the moderators, for the following reason(s):
> >
> > Invalid Approve Header
> >
> > If you do not wish the message to be posted, or have other concerns,
> > please send a message to the list owners at the following address:
> >   cypherpunks-owner at cryptofortress.com
> >
> > From: Tim May 
> > Date: Sun Dec 30, 2001  02:53:15 PM US/Pacific
> > To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> > Subject: Choices of small handguns
> ....
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
> have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
> make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
> --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago
> 




From lavigne2 at bol.com.br  Sun Dec 30 16:17:58 2001
From: lavigne2 at bol.com.br (ig)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:17:58 -0200
Subject: inv
Message-ID: <016801c19190$9b58f0e0$c83597c8@lavigne>

I have 27 inventions patented for commercialization; sell, license or partner to manufacture some of them.  

See them in my site www.lavigne.om3.net  

I seek people or offices that can make the sale of these patents.  

I also seek who can make the world popularization of these inventions.  

I have technical conditions of doing prototypes and development of any of these inventions; however I don't have financial conditions.  

I am available to travel for any place to do these prototypes or to develop the product.  

I can also develop inventions in agreement with your needs. 

If you can help me somehow please writes me.

 

Henrique Lavigne

 

 

 

Yo tengo 27 invenciones patentadas para comercialización; venda, licencia o socio para fabricar alguna.    

Véalos en mi sitio    www.lavigne.om3.net.    

Busco personas u oficinas que pueden hacer la venta de estas patentes.    

También busco quién puede hacer la divulgación mundial de estas invenciones.    

Tengo condiciones técnicas de hacer los prototipos y desarrollo de cualquiera de estas invenciones; sin embargo yo no tengo las condiciones financieras.    

Estoy disponible viajar para cualquier lugar y hacer estos prototipos o desarrollar el producto.    

También puedo desarrollar invenciones de acuerdo con sus necesidades.   

Si usted puede ayudarme de algún modo por favor escriba-me.

 

Enrique Lavigne

 

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 03:39:43 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:39:43 +1100
Subject: A bad man...but a greek!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011230223517.00a586a0@pop.useoz.com>


ANARCHY NEWS SITE FROM GREECE (english)
by ANARCHOPUNK 7:18pm Sat Dec 29 '01
redblackflag at yahoo.gr

ANARCHY SITE

ANARCHY SITE FROM GREECE WITH NEWS ,PHOTO AND MP3

WWW.GEOCITIES.COM/REDBLACKFLAG

Euletheria!

Selection and the systematic search of data bases
by thomas meyer-falk 11:26am Sun Dec 30 '01
Selection and the systematic search of data bases called
"Rasterfahndung"
after September 11th
In the German language there are certain terms with a negative
connotation.
"Selection" is one of them. In the Nazi empire from 1933 to 1945, for
instance, the medical doctor, Mengele, made a "selection" at the ramp
of the
concentration camp Auschwitz. He separated people into several groups.
One
group consisted of people who were to be killed immediately, another
one
with people who were "allowed" to live on for some time, yet another
group
was made up of people destined to become victims of his "experiments".
Today
selections are taking place again!

In the context of the so-called "Rasterfahndung", the systematic search
of
certain data bases, e. g. at registration offices and universities, the
local court of D|sseldorf gave certain "criteria for the selection of
people": male, birth date between October 1st, 1960, and October 1st,
1983,
birth name, first name, etc.

The author of this small article was registered at a comprehensive
university in the district of this court from 1993 to 1998, so he
complained
against the decision of the court, because in his opinion his data was
not
the business of the police and secret service offices. According to the
decision, all universities were forced to hand out their data on all
current
and former students who were born between 1960 and 1983.

Instead of objectively contradicting the political arguments of the
complainer, who argued, for example, that there was no real danger
justifying this spying on data in the least, and that the Pentagon and
the
WTC had been attacked, not the Federal Republic of Germany, the federal
court of D|sseldorf [a court on a higher level than the local court]
followed the absurd "arguments" given by the police president (decision
made
on October 30th, AZ 25T 874/01). On page 4 of the decision it says:

"There is a current danger for the security of the State and the
federal
states. A danger is current when the damaging event has already
started, or
when the disturbance will start with an almost certain probability in
the
near future. This assumption is justified due to the attacks of
September
11th and the reactions to this event. This is obvious already due to
the
fact that the German government has repeatedly announced unlimited
solidarity, including military means, with the steps taken by the
United
States."

In this case the collection of data was allowed and a complaint against
it
denied without giving even a small hint how this measure should help to
find
alleged "sleepers". On the contrary - all students, non-Germans and
Germans,
are put under a general suspicion; the fact of having been student is
already enough to be selected!

Many decades ago Orwell had published his vision in the novel "1984" -
the
reality of today is orientated along those lines. If you behave
unconspicuously, you are under suspicion - and if you attract
attention, you
are under suspicion anyway. The police state is not at the door - it is
right in our homes!

No to the police state! No to observance! No to the "Rasterfahndung"!
For a free and just world! Viva la Anarchie!

Thomas Meyer-Falk, z.Zt. JVA -Zelle 3117,
Schvnbornstra_e 32, D-76646 Bruchsal, Germany

On  or near this day.1835 -- US: Treaty of New Echota signed by Cherokee,
agreeing to move beyond the Mississippi River. Leads
to Trail of Tears & several thousand Cherokee deaths.
http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/trailtea.htm

1890 -- US: Wounded Knee Massacre of Oglala Sioux,
Pine Ridge, South Dakota. 300 mostly unarmed Indians
killed when the 7th Cavalry (Custer's old command)
discharges artillery amidst women, children, &
fleeing men. 29 soldiers die in this final major military
battle in genocide against Native Americans. 18
soldiers get Congressional Medals of Honor for their
'bravery'.
"Any white person who brought the
element of civilization had the right to
take over this continent."
 Ayn Rand,
http://www.dickshovel.com/WKmasscre.html
Four days after
Christmas...the soldiers
riddle women, children, &
the few men with bullets
like so many buffaloes.
The blizzard strikes the
dead & freezes them on
the snow.
http://woptura.com/
1910 -- Mexico: The anarchist Praxedis Gilberto
Guerrero is killed after leading a small band in
capturing the town of Janos. Now has a city named
for him.
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/guerrero.html

"The PIONEER has before declared that
our only safety depends upon the total
extermination [sic] of the Indians.
Having wronged them for centuries we
had better, in order to protect our
civilization, follow it up by one more
wrong & wipe these untamed & untamable
creatures from the face of the earth. "
L. Frank Baum, Publisher & editor of
"The Aberdeen Saturday Pioneer", & later
author of the Wizard of Oz books.




From hseaver at cybershamanix.com  Sun Dec 30 21:38:07 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:38:07 -0600
Subject: cell phone guns
References: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
	  <3.0.6.32.20011230141711.008226c0@pop.sprynet.com>
	  <3C2FC108.27BB6E21@cybershamanix.com>
	  <01123020010200.17320@localhost.localdomain> 
Message-ID: <3C2FF9BF.E38FDD14@cybershamanix.com>


     Hmmm, I'll bet it'd just spoil their day if that first round jammed
at the chamber mouth, eh? As .22's are want to do, especially the first
round, when the mag spring is at it's tightest and the slide not coming
quite full force. Sometimes a .22, being a soft lead bullet, jams
particularly hard and is a bitch to clear quickly. 
    But you already knew that, right?


Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> 
> At 8:01 PM -0600 12/30/01, david wrote:
> >On Sunday 30 December 2001 07:37 pm, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >
> >  >      Nobody, but nobody, walks around with an empty chamber, whatever
> >  > the caliber.
> >
> >Last I heard the Isreali military still did.
> 
> This is correct-
> 
> Col. Cooper had some interesting things to say about the Israelis-
> 
> 
> 
> "A couple of correspondents have asked us recently what we think of
> the Israeli "flat stance" in defensive pistol shooting. If you have
> seen the training films you know that the Israeli procedure is to
> rotate the pistol 90 degrees to the left so as to make it easier to
> operate the slide when the pistol is pointed at the target. It has
> been pointed out to me that a number of cinema presentations have
> featured this technique - apparently in an attempt to latch onto
> anything new.
> 
> It happens that Mossad, the Israeli attack squad, fancies the use of
> the 22 pistol as a murder weapon. This is quite sound when the pistol
> is used in a totally offensive mode, since the subject is confronted
> just out of arm's length and hit ten times quickly in the chest area.
> Ten 22-caliber holes in the thorax are fatal, as any qualified
> thoracic surgeon will tell you. In employing this system the weapon
> is carried in Condition 3 until the moment of confrontation,
> whereupon it is drawn, pointed straight out and the action is racked
> with the left hand. This is somewhat easier to do if the weapon is
> held flat rather than vertically. Accuracy does not matter and sights
> do not matter. Ten quick hits will do the job, whereupon the agent
> drops the pistol at the scene (for the laboratory to puzzle over) and
> walks quickly away.
> 
> Since the pistol is a totally defensive weapon, this Israeli flat
> technique is of only academic interest to us."
> 
> Regards,  Matt-
> 
> **************************************************************************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
> Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************************


-- 
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com




From freematt at coil.com  Sun Dec 30 20:53:53 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:53:53 -0500
Subject: cell phone guns
In-Reply-To: <01123020010200.17320@localhost.localdomain>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011229073310.00802100@pop.sprynet.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20011230141711.008226c0@pop.sprynet.com>
 <3C2FC108.27BB6E21@cybershamanix.com>
 <01123020010200.17320@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 


At 8:01 PM -0600 12/30/01, david wrote:
>On Sunday 30 December 2001 07:37 pm, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
>  >      Nobody, but nobody, walks around with an empty chamber, whatever
>  > the caliber.
>
>Last I heard the Isreali military still did.

This is correct-

Col. Cooper had some interesting things to say about the Israelis-



"A couple of correspondents have asked us recently what we think of 
the Israeli "flat stance" in defensive pistol shooting. If you have 
seen the training films you know that the Israeli procedure is to 
rotate the pistol 90 degrees to the left so as to make it easier to 
operate the slide when the pistol is pointed at the target. It has 
been pointed out to me that a number of cinema presentations have 
featured this technique - apparently in an attempt to latch onto 
anything new.

It happens that Mossad, the Israeli attack squad, fancies the use of 
the 22 pistol as a murder weapon. This is quite sound when the pistol 
is used in a totally offensive mode, since the subject is confronted 
just out of arm's length and hit ten times quickly in the chest area. 
Ten 22-caliber holes in the thorax are fatal, as any qualified 
thoracic surgeon will tell you. In employing this system the weapon 
is carried in Condition 3 until the moment of confrontation, 
whereupon it is drawn, pointed straight out and the action is racked 
with the left hand. This is somewhat easier to do if the weapon is 
held flat rather than vertically. Accuracy does not matter and sights 
do not matter. Ten quick hits will do the job, whereupon the agent 
drops the pistol at the scene (for the laboratory to puzzle over) and 
walks quickly away.

Since the pistol is a totally defensive weapon, this Israeli flat 
technique is of only academic interest to us."

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From freematt at coil.com  Sun Dec 30 21:11:54 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:11:54 -0500
Subject: Choices of small handguns
In-Reply-To: <026E6DFF-FD78-11D5-B1CF-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <026E6DFF-FD78-11D5-B1CF-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


At 2:53 PM -0800 12/30/01, Tim May wrote:
>* SIG P239, also in .40 S&W. Like my 229 (bigger, 15 rounds), it 
>shoots very well and is flat and concealable. The operation is 
>double action on the first pull, single action on subsequent pulls. 
>After the last shot, the decocker must be used to lower the hammer. 
>(I think this is a little confusing for newcomers, and could cause 
>accidents.) I bought mine used for $450, a range rental (with mild 
>range rental loads) with almost no visible wear.

I found the P239 not quite as well balanced as either my P226 or 
P228, and I can conceal either practically as well as the smaller 
P239.

>* H&K P7, the famous "squeeze-cocker." I had wanted one of these 
>since reading about them in 1980, so when H&K was selling a bunch of 
>reworked and remarket P7s at a good price ($550 or so), I bought 
>one. Very elegant, very unusual. Mine is in 9mm. Very safe, but 
>takes a bit of getting used to.

Click, clack is how I describe the P7.  I wouldn't want to reveal my 
position to say a burglar with such a pistol-  Any of the other 
pistols mentioned along with other conventional DA/SA pistols seem to 
be a better choice.

>* I have one Glock, a 1986-vintage Model 17, the first ones they 
>imported into the U.S. 9mm, 17-18 shots. It does the job, is safe, 
>and is a reliable standby. Many people swear by them. A Glock 19 is 
>slightly smaller. And then there are the aforementioned Model 26s 
>and 27s (.40, I recall).

Keep in mind that Glocks, while excellent, reliable and accurate do 
lead the pack in accidental discharges, even among "trained" police. 
I'd not recommend the Glock to a beginner or to someone who wouldn't 
put in the necessary practice.

>I like my Kahr, followed by my H&K P7, followed by my SIGs.
>
>(I also have a full-sized H&K USP .45, and other handguns, of course.)

The Kahr's are excellent firearms-  Especially if your primary 
purpose is to conceal it.  However as a general purpose pistol a 
higher magazine capacity model with better longer range accuracy is 
better-

Regards,  Matt-


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
**************************************************************************




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 05:49:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:49:53 +1100
Subject: jamesd,Tim Mays lying black dog.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231004423.00a584a0@pop.useoz.com>


CommieRot! (english)
by James 8:00pm Mon Sep 3 '01
Anarchists killed more people in Spain than pinochet in 
Chile.See...http://www.jim.com/world.html
Post cut.
Yeah, but... (english)
by Superguy 10:50pm Mon Sep 3 '01
...anarchists only killed bad people.

on James and the Spanish Anarchists (english)
by anarcho 1:36am Tue Sep 4 '01
anarcho at geocities.com
James (who I imagine is that wonderfully inventive liar James Donald
of Usenet infamy) provides a url in which he "exposes" Spanish
Anarchism. The following URLs are in reply to such claims:
This is a direct reply to James webpages:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2374/blood.html
This is a more detailed reply to another such attack:
http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/spainrebut.html
I will leave it up to the reader to consult the all URLs and
leave it to them to discover who is telling the truth.
Readers may be interested in the following URL which
refutes James Donald's infamously inaccurate and
dishonest diatribes against Noam Chomsky
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/jamesd.html
these urls will indicate to the reader exactly what "James" is
like.
http://www.anarchistfaq.org/




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 06:54:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:54:50 +1100
Subject: BlackNet customers/suppliers needed. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231014156.00a9ca10@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Why should I feel guilt over what previous generations have done? 
Insects do it, birds do it, mammals do it and people do it. Even dolphins, 
the breeding heart liberals favourite, kill their competitors. Cro-Magnon 
man displaced Neanderthal man, where do we draw the line? My Romanian 
relatives had their land taken from them by Ukranian imperialists, within 
the last 100 years, why can't I make a claim? <<

Guilts not called for,blacknet (and other) direct action is called for.You 
could make a claim with APster against paticular Imperialists,Ill 
contribute.Dolphins rape and Kill,so what? We draw the line with 
crypto-friggen-anarchy,blacknet and APster (see the Cyphernomicon and 
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html

 >>The Canadian government abuses all of their citizens, why should 
aboriginal people of today get special treatment? The Canadian government 
doesn't appear to be any worse than the US or Australian governments, or 
for that matter any other government. <<

Govts days are numbered,Crypto-anarchy is coming,haven't you heard? REAL 
Anarchy.(see assassination politics)

 >>I never thought this list was a home for the bleeding heart liberal tree 
hugger crowd. <<

It aint,goose.I was a tree climber/feller for 15 years.I never thought this 
list was a home for the lunar right.Left wing or right wing its the same 
dirty bird,watch for claws and droppings.




From unicorn at schloss.li  Mon Dec 31 00:01:34 2001
From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 02:01:34 -0600
Subject: Choices of small handguns
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com]On
> Behalf Of Matthew Gaylor
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 11:12 PM
> To: Tim May
> Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: Re: Choices of small handguns

Mr. May indicates:

> >* H&K P7, the famous "squeeze-cocker." I had wanted one of these
> >since reading about them in 1980, so when H&K was selling a bunch of
> >reworked and remarket P7s at a good price ($550 or so), I bought
> >one. Very elegant, very unusual. Mine is in 9mm. Very safe, but
> >takes a bit of getting used to.
>
> Click, clack is how I describe the P7.  I wouldn't want to reveal my
> position to say a burglar with such a pistol-  Any of the other
> pistols mentioned along with other conventional DA/SA pistols seem to
> be a better choice.

Not that this has even a touch of relevance to cp's but-

I refuse to use anything else.

Ancient German P7 secret:

You can decock the pistol silently by disengaging the squeeze cock mechanism
under the trigger guard and flush with the depressed squeeze-cocker with the
thumb on your free hand and slowly releasing pressure on the cocker.  It's
pretty easy to engage the cocker silently as well, but why bother?  I
consider it like a set trigger.  It only gets cocked when the target is
acquired, identified and in the sights anyhow.  If you really need that
first shot to be deadly quiet you can hold the trigger down while you prowl
and use the squeeze cocker as the trigger instead.  (Sort of like a Steyr
SSG set trigger).  They are interchangeable.

You can pound them to death and they deliver first shot accuracy every time.
I put my first one literally through the wringer as a tester before buying
my second.  I doubt my torture testing was as official as the series done on
the p7s by the German army, (which includes an encounter with an APC) but I
was awfully satisfied.  They chew up +P+ ammo with ease.

They are one of the few well manufactured pistols that have properly
balanced tolerances with a fixed barrel and still aren't subject to a lot of
jamming or ammo pickiness.  It loves being dirty and will shoot on and on
regardless of what its been through.  (Fluted chamber helps here).  Combined
with good ammo, like say Golden Saber, the gun, if not the user, will
outshoot about anything that isn't designed specifically for competition
(i.e. impractical for real use).

More importantly it is simply the fastest, most accurate handgun from draw
to target to fire that I've ever used.  Best concealed carry around, in my
view.

Like I said, I don't bother with anything else anymore.




From g24956 at centrum.cz  Mon Dec 31 03:47:31 2001
From: g24956 at centrum.cz (g24956 at centrum.cz)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 06:47:31 -0500
Subject: login info 3
Message-ID: <00003d97162b$00003b3a$000011da@bluemail.dk>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 07:15:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:15:17 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | The Year in Internet Law
Message-ID: <3C308105.5F291E32@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/31/0451244.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Mon Dec 31 07:13:07 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:13:07 -0500
Subject: Choices of small handguns
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 


At 2:01 AM -0600 12/31/01, Black Unicorn wrote:
>You can decock the pistol silently by disengaging the squeeze cock mechanism
>under the trigger guard and flush with the depressed squeeze-cocker with the
>thumb on your free hand and slowly releasing pressure on the cocker.  It's
>pretty easy to engage the cocker silently as well, but why bother?  I
>consider it like a set trigger.  It only gets cocked when the target is
>acquired, identified and in the sights anyhow.

Have you experimented with doing that drill under stress or 
simulating a hand injury?  I think you'll find the design lacking.

>It loves being dirty and will shoot on and on
>regardless of what its been through.  (Fluted chamber helps here).

You bring up one of my other objections to the design- The fluted 
chamber is tough on the brass.  If you don't reload it isn't a 
problem however, but the fluting puts striations on the brass that 
weakens it for subsequent use.  I've heard that certain loads 
(Silvertips) foul up the gas system on the P7 quicker than other 
designs.  If the P7 works and if your particular gun works for you 
and your happy with it that's great.  Personally I'd stack up my 
Sig226 or Beretta 92FS against the P7 anytime.

Regards,  Matt-




**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
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**************************************************************************




From bvm93 at iol.it  Mon Dec 31 09:17:31 2001
From: bvm93 at iol.it (bvm93 at iol.it)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:17:31 -0700
Subject: We can Help!
Message-ID: <8s32yi0ir83w4a4.vxycvv3a8y0ilclyjc8@mx2.your-mortgagerates.com>


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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 09:04:53 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:04:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Clarification for cpunks_anon@einstein.ssz.com
Message-ID: 



This alias into the CDR is NOT intended as a general anonymizing feature
(irrespective of whether I happen to delete logs or not). It is ONLY meant
to obfuscate the source of traffic from current list subscribers (not
parties outside the list which might be using technical or other means to
execute traffic analysis).

If you need true anonymity then please consider using the following:

-	Always(!) use 'throw away' or 'one shot' accounts. NEVER use
	the same account or physical access point twice. NEVER use an
	account you pay for with a check or credit card. Remember
	that video is quite prevelant in todays society so be aware that
	identifying the location of the source, even if financial
	instruments aren't used, may be sufficient to identify
	you. 

-	Use an anonymizing service outside of the SSZ domain to increase
	the points of attack required to uncover the source.

-	Modify your text style; review favorite words or phrases and
	avoid them completely. If possible run your text through a
	translation service (eg source -> Spanish -> source) and then
	edit the resultant. If you do use an online translation service
	use an anonymizing service for this access as well.

-	Don't use sig's and such.

-	Avoid closed source software as there is a history for this
	class of technology to add identifying items to the material
	they generate. In an ideal world you would compile the source
	yourself after reviewing the source code (including the compiler
	mind you). However, given the general state of technical skills,
	this is not likely. One approach might be to take binaries, of
	the same rev level and compiled with the same compiler and
	library rev's, of a given tool from different sites and then
	compare them for any differences.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From creditguy at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 10:10:28 2001
From: creditguy at einstein.ssz.com (creditguy at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:10:28 -0700
Subject: Have good credit? FREE Credit report!!!
Message-ID: <200112311823.MAA20241@einstein.ssz.com>

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From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec 31 11:42:48 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:42:48 -0800
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011231094114.03981e88@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 11:59 AM 12/31/2001 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
>Ryan suggested earlier that the Ipaq with Fireball isn't up to the task.
>I don't think this is correct. I point you to
>
>http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs344/staff/group10/final_report.pdf
>
>in which some Stanford students produce a wireless ipaq2ipaq
>VoIP system. Biggest problem is that it's simplex, not because
>of cpu limitations but rather that the Compaq HW can listen or
>make noise, but not both simultaneously. Using a headset which
>interfaces through the expansion port might enable you to
>avoid this problem (and the BT headset could also offload the
>codec). A 206 MHz Ipaq would, I think have sufficient HP to
>do the crypto.

Agreed.  The port expander approach should be explored.  Also needed is 
WinModem control for smooth analog (clear) to digital (crypto) transition.


>I've toyed with the idea of porting SpeakFreely to Ipaq, but have
>not actually done anything at this point.

Several developers, including an ex-Starium engineer, and I have been 
talking about just such venture.  I sure between all of us we have the 
wherewithal to make this happen.

Besides the half-duplex problem some changes to the SF protocol are desired 
to work better with SOHO firewalls now common.

steve




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Dec 31 08:59:07 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:59:07 -0500
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
Message-ID: 


> ----------
> From: 	Steve Schear[SMTP:schear at lvcm.com]
> Sent: 	Sunday, December 30, 2001 5:32 PM
> To: 	Lucky Green
> Cc: 	cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: 	Re: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
> 
> At 09:19 PM 12/30/2001 +0100, you wrote:
> >On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Ryan Lackey wrote:
> >
> > > I'm unclear why Lucky dislikes the Sectra Tiger (www.sectra.se); the
> > > key management is not what I'd like, but seems designed specifically
> > > for hierarchical military or corporate organizations, which is the
> only 
> > viable
> > > market for a EUR 2500 encrypting cellphone.
> >
> >The reason why I have little faith in the Sectra Tiger is because I
> talked
> >with one of Sectra's head cryptographers. Below is a brief recap of the
> >conversation:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so why don't we pool our funds to encourage the reverse engineering
> and 
> release of source code to a popular PCS/GSM phone which can be readily 
> re-flashed and with sufficient resources (or easily augmented) to handle 
> this app? I'll donate $100 e-gold to get the fund going.  I'll establish a
> 
> publicly viewable e-gold account to hold other contributions.  The account
> 
> access key can be secret shared among a few fellow CPs.
> 
> steve
> 
Ryan suggested earlier that the Ipaq with Fireball isn't up to the task.
I don't think this is correct. I point you to

http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs344/staff/group10/final_report.pdf

in which some Stanford students produce a wireless ipaq2ipaq
VoIP system. Biggest problem is that it's simplex, not because
of cpu limitations but rather that the Compaq HW can listen or
make noise, but not both simultaneously. Using a headset which
interfaces through the expansion port might enable you to 
avoid this problem (and the BT headset could also offload the
codec). A 206 MHz Ipaq would, I think have sufficient HP to 
do the crypto.

I've toyed with the idea of porting SpeakFreely to Ipaq, but have
not actually done anything at this point.

I've x-posted to coderpunks, since that group is more germane.
Serious further discussion should be over there, IMHO.

Peter Trei








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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 10:11:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:11:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: jamesd,Tim Mays lying black dog.
In-Reply-To: <3C2ED3DB.22730.3F9993@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> Even if his spin on the book was entirely truthful and
> accurate, his version would not show that Catalonia was a
> socialist anarchy, it would merely show that the nomenclatura
> were wise, good, and popular, that the people were glad to
> obey, and that the nomenclatura never executed people without
> good cause.

That last line is a real doozy. What a hypocrite you are.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Dec 31 09:15:16 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:15:16 -0500
Subject: brinworld, sexchart
Message-ID: 


Well, that's cute, but there were non-internet versions in
SF fandom over twenty years ago.

I suppose the compiler will now seek a business method
patent on this 'new invention'.

Peter Trei


> ----------
> From: 	David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com]
> Sent: 	Saturday, December 29, 2001 11:35 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: 	brinworld, sexchart
> 
> Wired interview with creator of sexchart
> http://wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,48997,00.html
> 
> The graph: 
> http://www.attrition.org/hosted/sexchart/sexchart.9.25
> 
> Relevence to Brin's _Transparent Society_ etc should be obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec 31 12:15:40 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:15:40 -0800
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011231121323.038b2698@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 01:26 PM 12/31/2001 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
> > Lucky Green[SMTP:shamrock at cypherpunks.to]
>for the Ipaq, however, I suspect that this is a temporary phenomenon. MS
>is giving away it's development environment for free, and as pointed out,
>there is are several Linux ports. The higher cost of PocketPC devices can
>be balanced against their higher power.

If platform portability is desired why not use QT?  I believe there are 
ports to both Linux and Windows (including CE).

steve




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec 31 12:21:20 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:21:20 -0800
Subject: jamesd,Tim Mays lying black dog.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Monday, December 31, 2001, at 10:11 AM, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>
>> Even if his spin on the book was entirely truthful and
>> accurate, his version would not show that Catalonia was a
>> socialist anarchy, it would merely show that the nomenclatura
>> were wise, good, and popular, that the people were glad to
>> obey, and that the nomenclatura never executed people without
>> good cause.
>
> That last line is a real doozy. What a hypocrite you are.
>

I guess "irony" is not a defined word in Choate Prime.

Nor the subjunctive.


--Tim May
"The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able 
may have a gun." --Patrick Henry
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be 
properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton




From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Dec 31 12:24:55 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:24:55 -0800
Subject: Scarfo Phase 2
Message-ID: 


John Schwartz writes in the December 31 New York Times:

"A controversial system installed on a criminal suspect's 
computer by the government to capture the encryption 
passwords of a criminal suspect is nearing its second 
phase." 

Anybody have info or leads on the "second phase" of 
what appears to be the keylogging technology used 
by the FBI in the Scarfo case?




From ma at MarocMail.com  Mon Dec 31 12:52:19 2001
From: ma at MarocMail.com (ma at MarocMail.com)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:52:19
Subject: Bonne Anne 
Message-ID: <200112311302.HAA17702@einstein.ssz.com>


                    
                   MarocAnnonces.com

A l'occasion du Nouvel An l'équipe http://www.MarocAnnonces.com vous souhaite Bonne et Heureuse Année.

Webmaster




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Dec 31 10:26:22 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:26:22 -0500
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
Message-ID: 


> Lucky Green[SMTP:shamrock at cypherpunks.to]
> 
> 
> Ryan wrote:
> > "Everyone" has palm pilots already.  WinCE-based PocketPCs 
> > haven't made much of a dent in the marketplace.  There is 
> > also a very large developer community for palm apps, and 
> > they're widely deployed in 
> > corporations.
> 
> I am not sure that the existance of a large developer community has much
> bearing on the suitability of Palm as an encrypting phone platform. As
> for the hardware, it simply is underpowered. You can spend man-months
> trying to fight the current underpowered Palm platform or you can use
> the sufficiently-resourced PowerPC platform. Since I don't believe that
> there is a requirement for the feature to operate on a device already in
> the user's possession, I know what my choice would be. YMMV.
> 
It's a fact that there is a much larger developer community for the Palm
than
for the Ipaq, however, I suspect that this is a temporary phenomenon. MS
is giving away it's development environment for free, and as pointed out, 
there is are several Linux ports. The higher cost of PocketPC devices can
be balanced against their higher power.

Let's remember that for a specific app, we don't actually *need* more than
one programmer. 

> > If you're assuming users will buy a dedicated device *and* 
> > put linux on it, that's reasonable (or sell pre-packaged 
> > systems).  Otherwise, you also need to develop for WinCE on 
> > the PocketPC.
> 
> The OS is really of secondary or tertiary concern here. The more
> important question is which (if any) handheld hardware supports
> full-duplex audio. Do we know for fact that the lack of full duplex
> audio support on the VoIP handheld demo is due to lack of support in the
> HW or could it be a lack of support in the WinCE OS?
> 
I could care less if I have to program under WINCE or Linux; some
OSs require a bit more learning before I'm productive, but any 
programmer who can't pick up another environment quickly isn't 
worth his salt.

Doing it under WINCE (or both Linux and WINCE) has the 
advantage that the app develops a user base much more
quickly.

As for hardware limitations; I havent verified this independently,
but this is from the Stanford project cited earlier:

> 	"An investigation of the audio capture and playback capabilities 
of the Compaq iPAQ revealed that the speaker and microphone on the 
PDA are the same hardware device, and cannot both be in use at the 
same time. As a result, the system had to be engineered such that only 
one of audio playback and audio capture happens at any one time."

> --Lucky
> 
Peter





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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 19:38:45 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:38:45 +1100
Subject: Tear Gas:Is there are chemist in the house?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231143356.00aa43f0@pop.useoz.com>


Protestors need a plan for dealing with tear gas (english)
by Meadow McBride 12:29pm Sun Dec 30 '01 (Modified on 5:58pm Sun Dec 30 '01)
Call for ideas on how to deal with tear gas attacks in an organized manner.
It seems to me that protestors need a way to deal with the inevitable 
onslaught of tear gas in a more effective manner. I remember a protestor 
from Seattle telling me he was able to kick the canister that was emitting 
the gas back into the direction of the police. It seems to me that if a 
least a tiny proportion of protestors had access to gas masks, they could 
be spread amongst the crowd to take quick action against the canisters. Do 
any people have ideas on what action might be taken to neutralize the 
canisters? (immersing them in water, for example)
add your own comments
solution (english)
by j 12:51pm Sun Dec 30 '01
canisters get really hot, so wear leather gloves and throw em back.
chemistry (english)
by mark 1:12pm Sun Dec 30 '01
any chemists here?
i assume a solution of some sort would neutralize it?
and we could make our own water cannonish things to distribute said magic 
water.......
Revolutionary Anarchist Bucket Brigade (english)
by Anonymous 1:31pm Sun Dec 30 '01
Everyone should bring a five-gallon bucket. They can decorate them in 
various ways, use them as drums, etc. When the canisters fly, just cover 
them with the buckets.
Beat them in their own game (english)
by Freedom Fighters 1:36pm Sun Dec 30 '01
Bring your Super Soaker. And let it rain water balloons instead of stones. 
If they fire the water cannon, let's make it a fight that all sides can 
enjoy ;-D
Caution (english)
by drew 1:38pm Sun Dec 30 '01
My cousin is a medic at mass protests, the most common injury he sees is 
burn marks from kids picking up canisters and throwing them back. They get 
to very hot temps. Unless you have proper equipment don't risk it to throw 
them back.
Go to the local army surplus store and pick up a few old gas masks, then 
get some tough gloves.
gloves (english)
by Sean 2:03pm Sun Dec 30 '01
instead of leather gloves maybe oven mits will work and it wont involve 
sacrificing an animal.
stress preparidness (english)
by mike mcgregor 2:12pm Sun Dec 30 '01
address: aZZZZZZZZuijrdcftyui phone: 555 5555 129311011 at loyalistc.on.ca
i think the best way for us to deal with tear gas collectivly, is to stress 
preparidness. encourage people to pick up gas masks, resperator masks, ski 
goggles, swim goggles, dive masks, an at the very least, bandannas. we 
should also stress decontamination teqniques in the feild such as MOFBA and 
LAW and make sure that at least one person in each affinty group knows 
these procedures. finally, we should spread the message that the effects of 
tear gas are temporary, minor, and that we are strong.
www.actionfamily.ca
Don't pick them up! (english)
by cedd 2:30pm Sun Dec 30 '01
Don't pick the heck up those canisters, a fireman did so a fw years ago 
here (France) during a protest. He was wearing his full fire suit(sp?) and 
gloves. No need to describe how thick the thinggie can be, their gear is up 
to par with the one you see US firemen wear in the movies from Hollywood we 
know and love (grin).
Well, he lost his hand when the canister exploded (or what's the word?) 
while he held it in his fist. The guy will be permanently disabled now.
Cannot contribute anything useful to the discussion I'm afraid aprt that.. 
especially as I'm really inexperienced.. but maybe in the classical RPG 
lingo, I'd say "favor speed over attack and defense", ie be more mobile 
than them robocops, move to another street if one
is gased.. maybe.
Bring a baseball bat... (english)
by Daniel Warner 2:50pm Sun Dec 30 '01
...And when they pitch the canisters, hit a homerun.
Lemon juice (english)
by ardisson 3:10pm Sun Dec 30 '01
Breath in half a lemon through a bandana. It neutralizes the gas but keep 
you one hand busy holding the lemon. It's one of the best mean I know.
prepare (english)
by anarcho 3:36pm Sun Dec 30 '01
It's all well & good to bring your own gas mask etc, i always carry one to 
protests (2 in fact)... But remeber not everyone read indymedia nor makes a 
habit out of protesting and hence are likely to be unprepared for tear gas 
etc...
Soo,
Collect large amounts of bandanas, carry them soaked in lemon juice or 
vinegar, whichever you prefer, and have them on hand to give away to people
Make little leaflets to give away at protests on how to deal with tear gas, 
its effects, first aid etc etc
Bring lots and lots of water, more than what you need for yourself since 
many wont have brought any.
Have on hand stuff like saline solution or whatever it is
Stuff like that, what is important is not just how you deal with tear gas 
yourself. Having a gas mask is all good but it aint really that worthwhile 
if the whole crowd is without any protection and hence the protest is 
broken anyway. It's of course comforting and goo dto have your own, but 
what is best if if those around you can stand up to the tear gas with you 
and tear gas does not disperse teh corwd.
So yes, buckets, barrels, even pots & pans & bins to cover the canisters. 
And yeah thick thick gloves so you dont burn yourself throwing them back. 
And kicking works.
Take care all, have fun and i think mostly education is what maybe works 
best, if people know that they wont suddenly keel over & die when they get 
gassed then there just may be that slightly less element of panic, if 
people know what the gas is gunna do to em rather than have it come as an 
ever ruder shock than it already is, then it's far less likley that things 
will descend into total panic etc
long prongs (english)
by tim 3:51pm Sun Dec 30 '01
if you use a pair of long prongs(4-6ft), made of wood, metal or something, 
hinge it at the middle, and set it up so you can grab the canister and 
fling it back.
just a quick idea.
contact lenses (english)
by me 4:21pm Sun Dec 30 '01
while we're on the subject, i've heard that tear gas does really nasty 
things if you're wearing contact lenses - as a result i've worn my glasses 
in the past but i'd rather not risk them getting broken & stuff if i didn't 
need to. does anyone know anything about this?
Or maybe a hockey stick (english)
by P-Luck 4:57pm Sun Dec 30 '01
p-luck at redblackflag.ca.tc
We've seen many new tactics to deal with tear gas. In Quebec City, people 
brought buckets, baseball bats and also hockey sticks to throw the 
canisters back to the cops. And like many of us know, don't pick up the 
cans unless you have good gloves. You can buy construction gloves, they are 
very cheap and offers great protection.
question about paint inhalators (english)
by marco 5:58pm Sun Dec 30 '01
cuito61 at hotmail.com
are the paint inhalators, coupled with a good airtight pair of goggles, as 
good as a gas mask? you know, the ones you could buy in the hardware store 
that you see people wear sometimes when they have to do heavy-duty 
airbrushing.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 19:52:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:52:48 +1100
Subject: Testing nerve gas in OZ.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231144953.00aa3a50@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,3513192%255E662,00.html
Secret nerve gas project
By COLIN JAMES
31dec01
AUSTRALIAN defence scientists conducted top-secret experiments with nerve 
gas during the British atomic tests in the 1950s, classified documents show.
The chemical warfare program included Maralinga, where investigations were 
undertaken on the contamination of water supplies by nerve gas and nuclear 
explosions.
Documents also show Australian scientists closely monitored a US project in 
which human volunteers were used to test a pill to treat the effects of 
radiation.
The US scientists earlier developed a kit they claimed would make water 
contaminated with radiation safe for drinking within 15 minutes.
The top-secret memorandums reveal the Australian Army wanted scientists to 
investigate how water supplies could be decontaminated during nuclear and 
chemical warfare.
Nuclear test veterans seeking compensation said yesterday the documents 
raised new questions about the nature of the British nuclear tests in 
Australia.
Long-term campaigner Avon Hudson, of Balaklava in South Australia, said the 
documents proved the tests went beyond the explosion of nuclear devices at 
Maralinga, Emu Field and the Montebello Islands off Western Australia.
"These documents are the only ones we have ever seen which show that 
chemical warfare was part of the whole program," he said.
"This has never come out before and the question has to be asked about what 
else they (the British and Australian governments) have been hiding for all 
these years.
"There must be other files somewhere which would reveal exactly what was 
going on in terms of chemical and biological warfare, but where they are 
now is anybody's guess."
The memorandums issued from the Defence Standards Laboratories detail how 
the Victorian facility began experiments with nerve gas in 1957, with 
further work on the decontamination of water supplies beginning in 1959.
One document says the nerve gas experiments were overseen by a Dr J. 
Tregellas-Williams, whose "initial work is being concentrated on a study of 
the hydrolysis of nerve gas GB at various PH".
The memorandum says scientist Dr P.W. Bowe began work on the contamination 
of water supplies by nerve gas and nuclear devices in May, 1959. He had 
"discussions with various army personnel and has visited Maralinga" to 
"gain an appreciation of the problem".END.
Aum Shrinko sect from japan tested Sarin on a sheep farm they owned in 
WA,several years back.PR.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 13:28:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:28:23 -0600
Subject: CNN.com - Free translation software unveils Arab views - December 31, 2001
Message-ID: <3C30D877.13B9D11C@ssz.com>


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/31/arabic.software.ap/index.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 13:32:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:32:15 -0600
Subject: The Register - 'Win-XP hole' mis-represented by FBI, press, Bibson
Message-ID: <3C30D95F.44FF90CC@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23517.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 20:46:55 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:46:55 +1100
Subject: Prime rib with Giblet gravy
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231154453.00aa0730@pop.useoz.com>


Police demand email surrender.Proffr demands presidential assassination.
Wires
DECEMBER 27, 2001
A US MAN accused of sending harassing emails to an American police 
department has been told to surrender - via email.
Police in Rowlett, Texas, informed John Germer, 38, that a warrant had been 
issued for his arrest on a misdemeanor harassment charge.
Police said an attorney representing Germer called them a short time later 
to ask how and when Germer could surrender.
As part of an agreement between police and Germer's attorney, the 
department agreed to withhold prosecution if Germer completes counselling 
therapy and agrees in writing to use his real name in any more 
communications with the department.
The emails, which began in April, were sent to police and some city 
employees, including the mayor. The sender used the name "Giblet Gravy".
Police turned to Hotmail to track down the sender.
Authorities initially ignored the emails, which they described as annoying, 
harassing and sometimes vulgar.
But the number of incidents picked up in November and that led to a formal 
investigation

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,3495753%5E15319%5E%5Enbv%5E15306,00.html




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 21:24:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:24:08 +1100
Subject: Bill gates and Tim May need killing
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231155714.00a11020@pop.useoz.com>


Liars,cheats and bullies never prosper,or do they? This fine pair sure seem 
to.Sometimes we shoot for the moon and do those other things not because 
its easy...but because its hard.Its time for a new generation of 
crypto-anarchists to ask not what freenets can do for me but what I can do 
for freenets.
We have irrefutable evidence that gates and May are capitalist robber 
barons intent on preserving hegemony even after collapse of govts.These 
corporate criminals live holed up in heavily armed and surveilled compounds 
yet at some point every scummy little crook has to come out from under 
their rock.Even if like BG,its to promise to give back some minuscule 
fraction of what he stole.Is there any evidence that the wealth they 
accumulated showered down as a result of their intrinsic worth?The sheer 
quality of their contributions? Read them both and make up your own 
mind.Some minor stuff here and there,not enough to save them,simply enough 
to show that even the worst humans that ever lived had at least one faintly 
redeeming feature hidden somewhere.
The only interesting thing now about the certain fate of these 2 is if they 
realize how close to  death they are and run.I hear there are some empty 
caves available in afghanistan.The APster justice posse will still find and 
destroy them.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GMC d-(--) s:+ a? C++ UL++ P+ L++>++++ !E W++ N+(++) o? K+ w--- !O M--
V? PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t* 5+++ X R* tv b+ DI+ D++ G++>+++ e>++ h-- r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 31 13:32:13 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:32:13 -0500
Subject: Clarification for cpunks_anon@einstein.ssz.com 
Message-ID: <200112312132.QAB00421@mail.lokmail.net>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 21:50:51 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:50:51 +1100
Subject: Faustines little pistil.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231164424.00a112d0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>What I am arguing in this book is that the major source of structural 
change
in this society--the change in the mode of innovation in the relation of
science to technology and in public policy-- is the change in the character of
of knowledge: the exponential growth and branching of science, the rise of a
new intellectual technology, the creation of systematic research through R&D
budgets, and as the calyx of all this, the codification of theoretical
knowledge."
Any thoughts? Also, I'd be interested in any other authors (and recommended
works)you find useful re. these issues... thanks!
~Faustine.<<
Hear you go darlin'...Justines bliss
bung. black hole of infinite gravity -- unescapable. event horizon? yeah 
man..i crossed it. no turning back kemosabi, i'm abe froman -- the sausage 
king. i'm going deep baby. hear me? lickin' it. flippin' it. stickin' 
it...just getting started honey. soup? no thanks..i'll take the tossed 
salad. anal eaze? negative captain. the kitty is drooling -- drooling 
south. i'm taking the highway and i'm not talking i-95. reachin' around, 
tweaking those pencil erasers -- heading for the rim. swish, 2 points. deep 
-- steady -- slow. teasin', teasin', teasin'. a light brush against her 
clinton. got it? sigh -- deeper now. time to pick it up scotty. captain -- 
the ship cann't take it, i'm givin' her all she got! never. rub the button 
faster now. captain -- shes quivering..shaking. here she C U M S. i'm 
backing the lincoln out of the garage now. stroking it slow and hard. here 
it cums baby -- silky. warm milky imbricated art for you my love. a mural 
of sorts. i call it the "chocolate star fish."
Or try Bookchin's post scarcity anarchism if you like academic verbiage and 
talk guns with little timmy may if you like to watch a grown man masturbate.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 14:56:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:56:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Clarification for cpunks_anon@einstein.ssz.com 
In-Reply-To: <200112312132.QAB00421@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> This is a great point, but it's worth remembering that even your opinions
> themselves can be used to find you.

True enough, if the fish bowl is small enough there ain't no place to
hide. This is congruent with the 'number of anonymous remailer' issue.

I guess the moral of the story is you can't hide if there ain't no crowd.

;)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Dec 31 16:56:52 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:56:52 -0800
Subject: Clarification for cpunks_anon@einstein.ssz.com 
In-Reply-To: <200112312132.QAB00421@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


Faustine wrote:

>Take an inventory of all the unusual things that push your 
> buttons--the opinions that make you unique--and you'll 
> be a step ahead. 


But this is a well-established unsolvable problem in
philosophy. It is impossible to examine your fundamental
ideas for they are what you stand on to examine. What
you think are basic are at least one step up from fundamental.

Another person can see your fundamentals but not you, and
vice versa.

Faustine demonstrated this with her parable about locating
a long-lost acquaintance, as did he her, uh, her he. He did
not could not recognize what she saw in him, and she did
not see how he identified her. What she saw was a secondary
appearance he claims to have seen in her writings, not primary.

There is no way out of the dilemma of not being able to see in 
yourself what others do, what they see in you is transparent
to you. An unexamined life is the only possibility -- the joke
of the opposite canard.

Camouflage at will, but it will take another party to check
how you blindly failed to protect yourself.

That's why relying on your own secret remailer the first hop 
is futile.




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 31 09:07:31 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:07:31 +0000
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011231170730.GA2005@atreides.havenco.com>


Quoting Trei, Peter :

> Ryan suggested earlier that the Ipaq with Fireball isn't up to the task.
> I don't think this is correct. I point you to
> 
> http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs344/staff/group10/final_report.pdf
> 
> in which some Stanford students produce a wireless ipaq2ipaq
> VoIP system. Biggest problem is that it's simplex, not because
> of cpu limitations but rather that the Compaq HW can listen or
> make noise, but not both simultaneously. Using a headset which
> interfaces through the expansion port might enable you to 
> avoid this problem (and the BT headset could also offload the
> codec). A 206 MHz Ipaq would, I think have sufficient HP to 
> do the crypto.
> 

I didn't mean the imply the Ipaq CPU (200MHz StrongARM) would be
insufficient, merely that from usability standpoint.

The "holy grail" would be working on 16-33MHz *dragonball* (== 68000)
processors.  *That* would be impressive.  Doing this on a strongarm is easy.

I'm not sure what the audio output from the ericsson bluetooth headset
is, when it connects to a PDA.

I've asked Monty (the ogg guy) and some others, and they think a 50MHz
ARM7 is more than sufficient for the compression; getting it down a
33MHz 68000 (like in the recent high-end palm devices) would be cool.

> I've toyed with the idea of porting SpeakFreely to Ipaq, but have
> not actually done anything at this point.
> 
> I've x-posted to coderpunks, since that group is more germane.
> Serious further discussion should be over there, IMHO.
> 
> Peter Trei
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ============================================================================
> ================
> This e-mail, its content and any files transmitted with it are intended
> solely for the addressee(s) and are PRIVILEGED and 
> CONFIDENTIAL.  Access by any other party is unauthorized without the express
> prior written permission of the sender.  If 
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> information in any way, Please delete all copies of the e-mail and the
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> 
> 

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 22:15:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:15:25 +1100
Subject: jamesd,Tim Mays lying black dog. 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231165200.00a98aa0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>In that direct reply McKay confidently announces that I am
lying, and confidently announces that he is refuting my
claims. He then gives a long list of facts that supposedly
refute my claims, but which actually seem to confirm them,
then confidently announces I have been refuted.<<

Such as at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/jamesd.html
Should have got a patent on that technique jamesd.nevermind.Facts never got 
in the way of a good fairy story.

 >>McKay's evidence does not support his claim that Catalonia
was anarchist. Instead, if his account and interpretation
was true, it would be evidence that Catalonia was a benign
dictatorship reluctantly forced to use a small amount of very
necessary terror by the wickedness and recalcitrance a small
number of those it ruled.<<

Twisting McKay could be as difficult as twisting Chompsky,still the big lie...
Easy to check http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2374/blood.html
I still swear by "objectivity and liberal scholarship."by Chompsky.Also 
Orwell,Oh, and Bookchins,"The spanish anarchists"

 >>He announces
that I am wrong in some great big important way, but when you
carefully read the alleged errors of my terrible "reign of
error", he is making distinctions so minute that no one could
possibly care, and in many cases distinctions so fine that no
one save himself could possibly understand. <<

This would seem to describe jamesd's MO to a T.See 
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/jamesd.html
If they are good enough for you to attack chomsky with you cant squeal to 
much when they are used on you,can you jimmy? You ARE wrong in some big 
important ways,you have a hirstory of it and your last refuge with 
imbeciles like Tim is under assault.The CALCers Tora Bora's are about to be 
firebombed,run jimmy run!




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 31 14:15:44 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:15:44 -0500
Subject: Choices of small handguns 
Message-ID: <200112312215.RAA18327@mail.lokmail.net>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 22:18:45 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:18:45 +1100
Subject: Bikies on a roll
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231171643.00a9b690@pop.useoz.com>


Some clubs you have to kill someone to get in.Mad Matts road warriors 
demand that you kill a cop.
Police brace as bikies rally for run
By Layla Tucak
December 31, 2001
AS many as 250 Gypsy Jokers bikies are expected to set off from Perth on 
their annual "run" today, stretching police resources on New Year's Eve.
West Australian police conceded yesterday they still did not know the 
destination of the run, as gang members from across the country converged 
on Perth by air and car.
Their motorcycles, trucked across the Nullarbor in the past two days, were 
inspected by police concerned about trouble from one of the nation's most 
notorious gangs.
Members of the Jokers are the prime suspects in the car-bomb murders in 
September of former senior detective Don Hancock and his friend Lou Lewis.
Hancock and Lewis were killed a year after gang member Billy Grierson was 
shot dead by a sniper bullet at Ora Banda in the Goldfields after being 
kicked out of a pub owned by Hancock. It is thought that Ora Banda may be a 
destination for today's run, which will be followed by a large police and 
media contingent.
The Jokers who flew to Western Australia at the weekend were questioned and 
photographed at Perth airport by police.
Gang members began pouring into Perth on Friday night and continued to 
arrive yesterday while police kept a watchful eye at Perth's domestic 
airport and at the gang's Maddington headquarters.
Police sergeant Graham Clifford said yesterday as many police as needed 
would take part in the operation.
"We conduct randon breath-testing and vehicle checks on the general 
population and these people are no different - except that their his tory 
is linked to criminal activity," he said.
The gang will also be followed by a civil libertarian and an independent 
observer - Professor Arthur Veno from Monash University - who will document 
their ride.
Sydney Vietnam veteran Ray Jennings was also planning to join the group to 
act as its public relations spokesman but a police source said the gang had 
since discharged him of the role.
Police relations with the bikie gang have deteriorated since the double 
murder, which has resulted in multiple searches of gang hang-outs but no 
arrests




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 22:20:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:20:42 +1100
Subject: Crazy Asians
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231171913.00a9b0c0@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: MegaStupidity
Security comes before rights, Megawati tells military
Jakarta: The military may act "without any doubts" against separatists 
which threaten national unity and, as long as its members respect the law, 
they need not worry about violating human rights, the President, Megawati 
Sukarnoputri, said.
"Suddenly we are aware ... of the need of a force to protect our beloved 
nation and motherland from breaking up," the nationalist, who rose to power 
in July with the backing of the military, said on Saturday. She told top 
commanders and thousands of troops at a military parade in Jakarta to 
respect the law in the course of their duties.
"With that as your guide, you can do your duty without worrying about being 
involved in human rights abuses," she said. "Do everything without any 
doubts."
Despite accusations that the army has staged political killings and run 
death squads, military chiefs say fear of violating human rights has 
prevented soldiers from cracking down on troublemakers in Indonesia's many 
conflict zones.
Bloodshed in 1999 in East Timor, blamed on the Indonesian army, prompted 
the United States to sever its relationship with Indonesia's armed forces. 
The US Congress outlawed the resumption of ties until those responsible for 
the violence that followed East Timor's vote for independence were brought 
to justice.
Ms Megawati, however, backed the US's war against terrorism and was one of 
the first foreign leaders to visit Washington after the September 11 attacks.
Last week, Washington partly sidestepped its ban by including Indonesia on 
a list of South-East Asian countries to take part in US-sponsored 
counterterrorism training programs.
Indonesia's army was one of the pillars of the former dictator Soeharto's 
32-year reign and he used it to crush any opposition to his regime.
Since he was forced from office in 1998, commanders have acknowledged on 
numerous occasions that members of the army committed human rights abuses.
But activists say little has changed in the past three years. The army is 
accused of committing widespread abuses in the provinces of Irian Jaya and 
Aceh, where separatists are fighting to break away from Indonesia.
On Thursday, the army commander General Endriartono Sutarto said his men's 
morale was low because of media attention on their alleged abuses.
Subject: Singapore Milgram experiment
Singapore's PM promotes real world
Correspondents in Singapore
DECEMBER 31, 2001
INTERNET-obsessed Singaporeans have been told to spend more time taking 
stock of the real world around them and not drift off as "disembodied" 
entities in cyberspace.
Deputy Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, in a message to the national youth 
movement, said young Singaporeans needed to be aware of the republic's 
fight to survive as a prosperous society in a turbulent region.
"Youths are spending more time sitting in front of computers, surfing the 
net and communicating through emails, ICQ and SMS," Mr Lee said.
"You must also grow up sharing common formative experiences in the real 
world, and bond together as a people. You can only do this through 
face-to-face interaction," he said.
"As a nation we cannot afford to let ourselves drift off individually, to 
become disembodied, faceless entities in remote corners of cyberspace."
Singapore has undergone a meteoric rise in its brief history, being 
transformed from a tropical backwater with no resources into one of the 
world's wealthiest nations per head of capita in three decades.
Telling the nation's youth that "the internet is not the only reality in 
your lives", Mr Lee said they needed to understand the backdrop against 
which Singapore "has to fight to survive including how we made it to where 
we are today".
"They should be exposed to the cultural and society diversity in and 
outside Singapore, so that they acquire the instincts and knowledge they 
need to live in a multi-racial society that is located in a turbulent 
region within a globalised world."
Affluent Singapore has been actively promoting an electronic lifestyle 
among its four million residents, with a mid-year survey showing 60 per 
cent of homes have at least one computer and most have internet access.
A poll of 4000 teenagers showed they spent on average more than 13 hours on 
line per month.
Wonder when they'll discover APster?




From esttundrades at tundra.com  Mon Dec 31 13:43:13 2001
From: esttundrades at tundra.com (Delbert Orozco)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:23:13 -0420
Subject: Reinvent yourself as being slim
Message-ID: <529173531.47818140525343@thebat.net>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 22:26:19 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:26:19 +1100
Subject: Argentine Anarquia revolucione
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231172223.00a9f250@pop.useoz.com>


Riots spark chaos in Argentina
 From AFP
December 31, 2001
ARGENTINE President Adolfo Rodriguez Saa's week-old cabinet offered its 
collective resignation yesterday following renewed unrest over economic 
policies and unpopular government officials. There was no word on whether 
Mr Rodriguez Saa had accepted the resignations.
Austerity measures led to riots that toppled the previous president, 
Fernando de la Rua, and threaten Mr Rodriguez Saa now the street protests 
have resumed.
However, Mr Rodriguez Saa received an encouraging telephone call from US 
President George W. Bush, who urged him to stick with a strict plan 
approved by the International Monetary Fund.
Mr Bush "emphasised the need for the Argentine Government to develop a 
sustainable economic plan and work closely with international financial 
institutions to do so", White House spokesman Scott McClellan told 
reporters at Mr Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas.
In Buenos Aires, thousands of people took to the streets overnight 
demanding the release of their money, which has been frozen in bank 
accounts. The protests turned violent when a group of young demonstrators 
tried to storm the presidential palace and clashed with riot police, who 
used tear gas and water hoses to break up the crowd.
Another crowd stormed the Congress building, torching curtains and wrecking 
furniture before they were ousted by police. Twelve officers were injured, 
six seriously, and 33 people were arrested.
Mr Rodriguez Saa asked the country's banks to help re-establish peace by 
facilitating the payment of pensions and salaries to workers and retirees. 
He said that in a meeting with business community leaders he had asked 
banks to remain open from 8am to 8pm today to cash cheques of up to 1000 
pesos ($A1900) per person.
In one of the overnight clashes, a retired police officer guarding a 
service station shot and killed three youths after a heated argument, 
according to local media reports yesterday. The shooting sparked violent 
protests, and security officials used tear gas and rubber bullets to 
disperse the crowd.
Lawyer Diego Fumagalli criticised political leaders for missing the point. 
"They didn't understand the people's message," he said.
"The message was that we want a new political system without corruption, 
and then they go and name all these corrupt politicians to the new 
government."
Since taking office for a three-month interim term, Mr Saa has suspended 
payments on the country's $261 billion foreign debt, and announced the 
creation of 1 million temporary jobs as part of an emergency program aimed 
at helping the 2.5 million unemployed.
Subject: Intenational Anarchy.FAQ you.
FROM... http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
The FAQ is now mirrored at the following sites (which we know of):
Original site:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/
General sites:
http://flag.blackened.net/intanark/faq/
http://www.diy-punk.org/anarchy/
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
http://www.anarchism.ca/faq/
http://www.illuminati.ch/anarchy
http://tofuwurst.staticky.com/anarchy/
http://chat.carleton.ca/~sgoodhew/anarchy/mirrors/anarchist_faq/index.html
http://www.secret-paradise.com/anarcho/
http://www.throneworld.com/dgarrison/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/hope_liberty_association/faq/index.html
http://www.xs4all.be/~erbu/anarchy/index.html
http://www.almostnotcrazy.org/b/anarchist_faq/index.html
http://www.radio4all.org/afaq/
http://www.anarchy.be/faq/index.html
http://www.vamosamontarla.com/
For Australian readers, try this site.
For European readers, try here or here
For North American readers, try here.
For the version at Spunk Press, click here.

Non-English versions of the FAQ
In Hebrew:
http://www.shalif.com/anarchy/faqdama.html
http://www.geocities.com/~drilanshalif/faqdama.html
http://members.tripod.com/~alternativ_psy/faqdama.html
In Portuguese:
http://www.geocities.com/projetoperiferia2/indice.htm
In Japanese:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/anarchy/anarchy/faq/faqbase.html
Can you dig it.CAN YOU DIG IT!




From bdwebtoolbarssro at webtoolbars.com  Mon Dec 31 14:58:38 2001
From: bdwebtoolbarssro at webtoolbars.com (Ollie Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:38:38 -0480
Subject: Natural way to better wei+ght
Message-ID: <418705759.45276386686434@thebat.net>

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From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 31 09:45:46 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:45:46 +0000
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011231174546.GB2005@atreides.havenco.com>


Quoting Trei, Peter :

> I don't quite understand why getting encrypted VoIP working on a Palm Pilot
> (16-33 MHz dragonball) is the 'Holy Grail'. I would have said that the HG is
> an affordable, working, portable and pocketable encrypted VoIP system with
> free software, regardless of platform. The Ipaq is 2-300$ more than a Palm 
> device, but is that the whole issue? Ipaqs have much better cpu power 
> and memory, and decent Linux ports. Go for the low-hanging fruit first.

"Everyone" has palm pilots already.  WinCE-based PocketPCs haven't
made much of a dent in the marketplace.  There is also a very large
developer community for palm apps, and they're widely deployed in 
corporations.

If you're assuming users will buy a dedicated device *and* put linux
on it, that's reasonable (or sell pre-packaged systems).  Otherwise,
you also need to develop for WinCE on the PocketPC.

I still would like to see from someone who is good at integer voice
encoding whether a 33MHz dragonball can do tolerable-quality voice at
14.4kbps; I'm sure it's good enough to distinguish "ki" from
"eight-ball", but I'd like something good enough to distinguish
"weight, y'all" from "eight-ball"

Since it's very unlikely any pda will have full duplex audio anytime
soon, I think the bluetooth headset is the only viable solution; I'm
going to get one for my t39m soon enough, and then I'll experiment
with linux bluetooth support and try to get bluetooth audio integrated
into OSS on my laptop, as a proof of concept.  That done, it's just a
question of running linux on an ipaq for a simple demo, with libgsm
compiled as integer; then maybe something more efficient.  I'm pretty
sure someone has made the bluetooth headset work with linux already,
so it's just a question of kernel patches.

The security of this would depend somewhat on the bluetooth
encryption, although I'd be happier trusting unencrypted but
low-propagation bluetooth vs. a PSTN/cell link.

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec 30 23:11:58 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:11:58 +1100
Subject: What is a 'right'? Its right to kill the president.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231173409.00a9f100@pop.useoz.com>


 >>Note that there is nothing in nature which implies that force and desire 
will be mitigated in and of themselves (so much for CACL philosophy).

Not even APster? The mount everest of CALC philosophy?

 >>In fact, if one looks at game theory it becomes abundently clear, even 
given the utility of game theoretic concepts, that the best strategy is not 
to play by the rules given a choice (this helps explain why non-sentient 
biological activity conforms to game theory in many cases).<<

Evolution in a nutshell,brilliant jim,now as you live near millions of 
people who don't believe in evolution,would you please stop preaching to 
the choir and take your show on the road.

  >>This of course destroys any concept of 'utopia' where everyone plays by 
the same rules all the time without exception.<<

  These concepts are hereby outlawed.No one will speak of the lifestyles of 
pre-european polynesia,Arawak,aboriginal and west coast tribespeoples ever 
again.Should they do so they will be fed to vicious shoats.To begin to 
think is to begin to be undermined.Im worried about you jim,If the above," 
What is a 'right'?,"screed was your work,I suggest you read some of RD 
Laings "Knots".You seem trapped in a bind of some kind.Try challomile and 
even valerian teas as you read.Go up a hightower somewhere with a 
highpowered book or two.Thinking of you.




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 31 10:46:53 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:46:53 +0000
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011231184653.GC2005@atreides.havenco.com>


Actually, the ipaq *does* support full duplex audio now.

PocketPC 3.0 doesn't, but compaq has provided a driver for WinCE, and
the linux distribution supports it too.

PocketPC supports an application called "Microsoft Portrait" and msn
messenger for voice over ip.  To provide maximal end-user benefit, the
thing to do is probably put strong crypto into msn messenger/ms
portrait, on desktop and handheld.

"Off the shelf hardware" is pretty meaningless to users if they need
to do the linux handheld install; I've tried before and even if you
know a fair bit about linux, it takes over an hour, and is somewhat
risky.  Whereas if it's just a "download this app and it works" thing,
it's a lot easier to get casual users.

http://research.microsoft.com/~jiangli/portrait/

is the microsoft portrait page.  It's MS Research, not MS MS, so it
may not suck.

Someone should probably contact the guy and see what's up.  If they
would support an open-source client, and add crypto to the protocol,
it might be good.


-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 31 15:59:33 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:59:33 -0500
Subject: Clarification for cpunks_anon@einstein.ssz.com 
Message-ID: <200112312359.SAA12359@mail.lokmail.net>

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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Dec 31 10:01:05 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:01:05 +0100
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: <20011231174546.GB2005@atreides.havenco.com>
Message-ID: <000101c19225$20c437a0$0200000a@LUCKYVAIO>


Ryan wrote:
> "Everyone" has palm pilots already.  WinCE-based PocketPCs 
> haven't made much of a dent in the marketplace.  There is 
> also a very large developer community for palm apps, and 
> they're widely deployed in 
> corporations.

I am not sure that the existance of a large developer community has much
bearing on the suitability of Palm as an encrypting phone platform. As
for the hardware, it simply is underpowered. You can spend man-months
trying to fight the current underpowered Palm platform or you can use
the sufficiently-resourced PowerPC platform. Since I don't believe that
there is a requirement for the feature to operate on a device already in
the user's possession, I know what my choice would be. YMMV.

> If you're assuming users will buy a dedicated device *and* 
> put linux on it, that's reasonable (or sell pre-packaged 
> systems).  Otherwise, you also need to develop for WinCE on 
> the PocketPC.

The OS is really of secondary or tertiary concern here. The more
important question is which (if any) handheld hardware supports
full-duplex audio. Do we know for fact that the lack of full duplex
audio support on the VoIP handheld demo is due to lack of support in the
HW or could it be a lack of support in the WinCE OS?

--Lucky




From a23036 at luso.pt  Mon Dec 31 16:22:13 2001
From: a23036 at luso.pt (a23036 at luso.pt)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:22:13 -0500
Subject: vacation CONF.                         21370
Message-ID: <000040344f0f$00005394$0000537a@slomusic.net>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 00:34:29 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:34:29 +1100
Subject: Scarffed data probably an "illegal wiretap"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231193155.00ab28b0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001/12/27/fbi-snooping.htm
Defense attorneys said the case might have been a "run of the mill 
bookmaking case" except for the surveillance issue. They requested full 
disclosure of the government's operation, claiming Scarfo otherwise would 
not get a fair trial.
Specifically, the attorneys wanted to ensure that e-mail messages were not 
gathered by modem and phone lines, possibly constituting an illegal wiretap.
In his ruling, Politan said the government convinced him at a Sept. 26 
closed meeting that no information was picked up while a modem was on.
Prosecutors were justified in invoking the Classified Information Privacy 
Act to protect national security at stake in the case, he said.
Vincent Scoca, Scarfo's attorney, said he will file to have the ruling 
reconsidered, a first step toward higher appeals.
"This a is a bad precedent for our judicial system. This was a two-bit 
bookmaking operation. There was nothing extraordinary about this case that 
warranted them using the Classified Information Privacy Act," he said. 
"That's a police state and we don't want a police state. Even in these 
times, after Sept. 11, people still don't (want) unwarranted government 
intrusion."
Scoca was not allowed to attend the September meeting.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Ronald Wigler said the judge's access to classified 
information at the meeting was "a safeguard to prevent the government from 
overreaching, as the defense alleges. That's why there are these checks and 
balances."
Scarfo's trial  including evidence gathered from the FBI surveillance  is 
likely get under way in the spring, Wigler said.
Trials good source of intelligence for cypher-terrorists,should be a good 
one.Thanks Uncle Sam.




From medyasis at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 31 09:36:09 2001
From: medyasis at yahoo.com (MEDYASIS)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:36:09 +0200
Subject: *** MUTLU YILLAR DILERIZ ***
Message-ID: <001601c19221$a232d160$5a01a8c0@ttnet.net.tr>



     

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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 01:16:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:16:24 +1100
Subject: Chief not a Chief
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231201101.00ab0050@pop.useoz.com>


First some background;
Here in the USA stereotypes of racial minorities are a
popular way of selling products and sports teams. All
very much like the Nazi images of Jews, Romany, and
Slavic people that allowed them to be thought of as
less than human.
Until fairly recently exaggerated and demeaning
cartoons of African Americans were used to sell
everything from pancakes and breakfast cereal to
cleaning products. While these have - through boycotts
and other actions- become a thing of the past the use
of these same types of demeaning and dehumanizing
caricatures of American Indian peoples is still
common.
Sports teams call themselves the Red Skins, Chiefs,
Braves, Savages, Warriors, Indians, etc and use half
naked grotesque depictions of Native people as their
symbols.
The Illinois University Basketball team goes a step
farther by having a white dressed as *a real savage
redskin* come out and do a *traditional Indian dance*
in a performance that casts ridicule on the Indigenous
Peoples of Turtle Island (North America). This at a
time when the Gov't. and their multinational corporate
friends have increased their attacks on our
reservations and way of life.
Doc

OreadDaily at yahoogroups.com wrote:

AND IN COLLEGE BASKETBALL
Missouri got its tail whipped in basketball last week
by Illinois. The highlight film however does not show
a man, dressed all in black (probably one of them
anarchists or something) burst through a ring of fans
and tackled Chief Illiniwek, Illinois' mascot, at
half-time. Illinois University spokesman Kent Brown
said the mascot has never been confronted before.
Chief Illiniwek performs a traditional Indian dance at
home games but rarely performs on the road. The
performances have been criticized for racial
insensitivity. It is unknown whether the attack was
related to the years-long debate on campus and beyond
over the controversial Chief. If it wasn't it should
have been. Several Illinois fans in the circle around
the court wore ``Save the Chief'' buttons.
Scott Keihl, 24, of Columbia, faces up to a year in
jail and a $1,000 fine on the third-degree assault
count.
Sources: Native News,Daily Illini, St. Louis Post

=====

"Unless someone like you cares a whole lot, nothing is going to get 
better.It's not."
-Dr. Seuss, 'The Lorax'

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve
neither liberty nor safety."  - Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"You may never know what results come from your action.
But if you do nothing, there will be no results."  -Gandhi
Wonder how james cosners going?




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 01:28:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:28:08 +1100
Subject: 2 deadly lethal Implosions.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231202144.00ab1b80@pop.useoz.com>


The only sound during a lethal injection is said to be when the lungs(or 
*towers*) collapse.The end is nigh.

Undercutting Executions Death penalty opponents are launching a new 
campaign to make it more difficult -- and more costly -- for prison 
officials to carry out lethal injection executions.
by Justine Sharrock December 28, 2001
Can public pressure on drug companies put an end to lethal injections?
As the chief executive of McAlester Regional Health Center in McAlester, 
Okla., Joel Tate is in the business of saving lives. So he said it came as 
a shock when Human Rights Watch suggested last June that his hospital was 
indirectly helping to kill people.
For the past twenty years, the hospital had been the Oklahoma Department of 
Corrections' sole supplier of potassium chloride, one of the drugs used 
during lethal injection executions -- a procedure which Oklahoma carried 
out more often than any other state in 2001.
Human Rights Watch, as part of a larger campaign to limit states' access to 
lethal injection drugs, urged Tate to sever his hospital's drug supply 
relationship with Oklahoma's prisons. The New York group's arguments swayed 
Tate, who ordered an immediate end to the sale of potassium chloride to 
corrections officials.
That single decision marked the first victory in what could become an 
innovative new push by anti-death penalty activists. Rather than attempting 
to convince state lawmakers to abandon capital punishment, the activists 
are setting their sights on the pharmaceutical companies and drug 
distributors on whom state and federal prisons rely. The hope, activists 
say, is that the companies and institutions which provide lethal injection 
drugs will be sufficiently influenced by negative publicity to drop the 
practice.
Activists acknowledge that this new campaign won't put an end to capital 
punishment. The goal, they say, is simply to make it more complicated -- 
and possibly more costly -- for states to carry out a death sentence.
"Drug companies are in the business of making drugs for health and 
well-being, not to kill people," says Steve Hawkins, Executive Director of 
the Washington, DC-based National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. 
"If a department of corrections wants to be in the business of killing 
people, let it be expensive, and let it be difficult."
Lethal injection is used by the US government and military as well as 36 of 
the 38 states which provide for the death penalty. A combination of three 
drugs are used in the process: sodium thiopental, or Pentothal, an 
anesthetic which puts the inmate to sleep; Pancuronium, which paralyzes the 
muscles and stops breathing; and potassium chloride, which stops the heart.
Human Rights Watch has launched an effort targetting distributors of 
potassium chloride. Allison Collins, a senior researcher with the group, 
says the organization is preparing a letter-writing campaign directed at 
two California companies -- Bergen Brunswig Corporation and Cardinal Health 
-- which are the nation's major suppliers of the drug. Similarly, the 
National Coalition Against the Death Penalty has launched a letter-writing 
campaign directed at Illinois-based Abbott Laboratory, the sole suppliers 
of Pentothal.
The new effort is not without precedent. In 1994, activists joined with the 
American College of Physicians and Physicians for Human Rights to launch a 
campaign aimed at discouraging doctors and other medical professionals from 
taking part in lethal injection executions. Since lethal injection involves 
the administering of drugs normally used for medical purposes, prison 
officials often ask that heath care professionals be involved, with some 
states even requiring their presence.
"It is hypocritical for health professionals to be involved in the death of 
individuals, instead of promoting health and life," argues Abe Bonowitz, 
director of Florida based Citizens United Against the Death Penalty, which 
joined in the 1994 campaign.
While that effort has had mixed results, death penalty opponents are hoping 
that applying similar pressure to drug companies will have a more 
far-reaching effect. Given the initial reactions from copmany officials, 
however, the campaign could be a long and difficult one.
Most of the companies targeted in the campaign insist they cannot be held 
accountable for how corrections officials use the drugs, all of which have 
other medical uses. Officials at Abbott, for instance, claim they have 
already tried to keep their product from being used in executions.
"Abbott does not support the use of Penthothal in capital punishment," says 
Abbott vice-president Catherine Babington. "In fact, (we) communicated with 
departments of corrections in the United States to request that this 
product not be used in capital punishment procedures." But the company 
can't control how their products are used, she says, claiming that 
corrections officials purchase sodium thiopental for use as a medical 
anesthetic.
Officials at Baxter International, Inc., which produces Pancuronium, the 
third drug in the lethal injection cocktail, likewise deny responsibility 
for the use of their product in executions.
"Information on the proper uses of Pancuronium are clearly stated on the 
label, in accordance to regulatory procedures," says Deborah Spak, a 
spokesperson for Baxter International, Inc. "We cannot know every use of 
the product that we sell. "
Activists acknowledge that theirs will be an uphill struggle. Still, they 
see their efforts to influence drug manufacturers and distributors as a 
significant part of a broad effort.
"This is not going to be the one key in ending the death penalty, says Jeff 
Garis, executive director of Pennsylvania Abolitionists Against the Death 
Penalty. "It is part of a larger overall strategy, that is going to take 
multiple tactics and campaigns."
http://www.motherjones.com/web_exclusives/features/news/executions.html
APster is interested in targeted action against the guards that volunteer 
for execution duties.Send me their details.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 01:37:20 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:37:20 +1100
Subject: Brown Power;"more smart"The friends of Timothy May.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231203320.00ab2470@pop.useoz.com>


Far-Right Recruiting Drive A range of racist and anti-immigrant groups are 
trying to turn the Sept. 11 terror attacks into a marketing tool.
by Yigal Schleifer Nov.26, 2001.
White supremacists like Matthew Hale are eager to use outrage over the 
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks to further their own goals.
The most recent book from former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke has been 
available since the beginning of this year, but only in Russian, Romanian 
and Serbian. That will soon change. Convinced that the Sept. 11 terrorist 
attacks have created a ripe market, Duke is rushing to provide an English 
version for sale on his website.
"It's being released prematurely, absolutely in response to September 11 
and the overwhelming demand for it," says Vincent Breeding, Duke's press 
secretary.
The demand for Duke's tome, "Jewish Supremacism: My Awakening on the Jewish 
Question," may not be "overwhelming," but his eagerness to benefit from the 
Sept. 11 attacks does appear to be part of a growing pattern. Experts and 
movement members alike agree that many of America's tiny but energetic 
far-right groups are seizing on the terror attacks to boost recruitment and 
help spread their messages of hate.
"Their information campaign is being stepped up, not only stepped up but 
altered to use the Sept. 11 attacks as a lever to change people's opinion 
in order to get them to come aboard," says Mark Pitcavage, national 
director of fact-finding for the Anti-Defamation League, a New York-based 
organization which monitors the activity of hate groups.
In the days after the attacks in New York and Washington, hate groups 
attempted to take advantage of anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment. Members 
of the World Church of the Creator, an Illinois-based white supremacist 
group, sought new recruits at a demonstration in the Chicago suburb of 
Bridgeview at which police prevented a crowd of several hundred from 
attacking a local mosque.
Matthew Hale, the 30-year-old leader of the World Church of the Creator, 
said his group has increased its activities since the attacks. The group 
has passed out fliers -- one entitled "Stop non-White Immigration," the 
other "Let's Stop Being Human Shields for Israel" -- in several cities in 
addition to Chicago.
"It is true that a lot of people are not ready at this time to accept the 
idea of repatriating the other races, although that is still our aim," says 
Hale. "But we definitely feel that things are moving a lot more in that 
direction since September 11."
Hale's World Church isn't alone. The day after the attacks on the World 
Trade Center and the Pentagon, the neo-Nazi National Alliance cancelled an 
anti-immigration rally in Georgia to instead organize a demonstration in 
front of the Israeli embassy in Washington.
"Like any pre-revolutionary organization throughout history, we must 
survive and adapt to rapidly evolving realities in the world around us," 
wrote one of the group's leaders in an e-mail to activists announcing the 
change.
Meanwhile, Michael Hill, president of the ultra-conservative League of the 
South, posted a broadside on the group's website saying that the attacks 
"spring from an 'open borders' policy that has for the past four decades 
encouraged massive Third World immigration and thus cultural destabilization."
Experts say extremist groups such as the League of the South and the World 
Church still boast relatively few members, their popular momentum having 
peaked in the mid 90's after the federal government's ill-fated sieges at 
Waco, Texas, and Ruby Ridge, Idaho. With their social relevance dwindling, 
a rightward shift in the national debate over immigration policies bodes 
well for the right-wing groups.
That shift could be especially beneficial for less-extreme groups such as 
the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which has long advocated 
such policies as the reduction of legal immigration, the close monitoring 
of visa holders in the US, and the use of national identity cards.
"I think a lot of the ideas that they have been pushing for a long time are 
now being looked at seriously," says Michael Fix, director of immigration 
studies at the Urban Institute. Indeed, in recent weeks Bush administration 
officials have called for tightening controls on issuing visas to citizens 
of Arab countries, the Department of Justice has launched a campaign to 
interview thousands of people from Arab and Islamic countries in the US on 
various kinds of visas, and a Republican member of the House of 
Representatives has called for a federal commission to look into issuing 
national identity cards.
Eric Ward, executive director of the Northwest Coalition for Human Dignity, 
a Seattle-based organization that tracks hate groups, says a restrictive 
shift in US immigration policy alone would be a major victory for 
anti-immigrant groups.
"The goal is to try and impact national policy and prepare to have a debate 
within America of who is an American and what America will look like," Ward 
says.
Towards that end, groups like the National Alliance and the Council of 
Conservative Citizens, a national white-power group which counts nearly 30 
Mississippi state legislators among its members and which has hosted both 
Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott and Georgia congressman Bob Barr at its 
meetings, are toning down their rhetoric. That change does not mean that 
the hate groups have moderated their views, however.
"Our people are becoming more radical, but they're becoming more smart," 
says Tom Metzger, the 63-year-old founder of the hate group White Aryan 
Resistance, who is considered one of the patriarchs of the racist right.
Devin Burghart of the Chicago-based Center for New Community, which tracks 
white nationalist activity in the Midwest, says the hate groups had already 
changed tactics.
"They're focused on building a base, building a constituency, and you can't 
do that when you're blowing stuff up. That's the lesson they learned from 
the militia movement," says Burghart. The lesson they are learning from the 
Sept. 11 attacks, it seems, is that building a constituency can be easier 
when someone else is blowing things up




From ryan at havenco.com  Mon Dec 31 12:49:40 2001
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:49:40 +0000
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
Message-ID: <20011231204940.GA3820@atreides.havenco.com>


Steve Schear wrote:

> If platform portability is desired why not use QT?  I believe there
> are  ports to both Linux and Windows (including CE).

A widget library does not a crossplatform development environment
make.  Particularly since you need to do audio processing,
tradiitonally one of the least portable parts of UNIX programming
(even from unix to unix).  Doing a simple 100% native GUI using whatever
widget set is most popular on a given platform is nothing compared to
handling audio in a reasonable way.

Plus, some of the good compression libraries seem to be windows-only
right now.

If the goal is to provide secure communications to as many people as
possible, a wince encrypted msn messenger + voice chat system seems
best.

Actually, you might just be able to do ipsec on the ppp link between
the two machines, and then use 100% pre-existing microsoft wince
software, to do it -- I don't know if they have an IPsec
implementation for the wince platform yet.

BTW, coderpunks at toad.com appears permanently dead, culled from the to:
line.

-- 
Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE]	ryan at havenco.com
CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd.	+44 7970 633 277 
the free world just milliseconds away	http://www.havenco.com/
OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec 31 20:56:30 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:56:30 -0800
Subject: End-to-end encrypting US GSM phones?
In-Reply-To: <20011231170730.GA2005@atreides.havenco.com>
References: 
  
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011231202622.033273f0@idiom.com>


At 05:07 PM 12/31/2001 +0000, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>...
> > A 206 MHz Ipaq would, I think have sufficient HP to do the crypto.
>
>I didn't mean the imply the Ipaq CPU (200MHz StrongARM) would be
>insufficient, merely that from usability standpoint.
>
>The "holy grail" would be working on 16-33MHz *dragonball* (== 68000)
>processors.  *That* would be impressive.  Doing this on a strongarm is easy.

First of all, the sound system on a Palm Pilot can't handle the job -
there's no microphone, and the speaker system mainly knows how to beep
(you can play different tones, but it's not made for voice.)
Somebody said here that the iPaQ audio is half-duplex - too bad,
because push-to-talk is annoying.

Second, crypto is hardly ever the CPU bottleneck - voice compression is.
Public-key operations take some time, but only at startup;
RC4 at 9600 bps won't keep your CPU warm, and even AES at 32kbps isn't much.
But voice compression, if you want anything fancier than ADPCM,
does take a lot of horsepower, either from a CPU or a DSP or ASIC.
(ADPCM's dirt-simple, and works fine for 32kbps, but is pretty ratty at
16kbps or below.  Almost anything else starts burning lots of CPU
if you want to go 16kbps or tighter (some of the delta-modulation stuff
isn't very CPU-intensive, but it's also not good for low bit rates.)
I'd be surprised if anybody could get a dragonball to do the voice
compression tightly enough even if there were audio hardware support.

In the current cell-phone world, you typically need 9600 or below,
and 4800 would be better.  Cell phones do have voice compression built in;
unfortunately, the software isn't designed to let you get at the compressed
data stream and do other things with it, and if you're using modems,
you need one or two more sets of similar hardware to transmit it after that.
(The easy data channel in the US, CDPD, doesn't work for voice -
it fits the data into gaps between voice packets, so the latency
is generally way too long and way too variable to handle voice.)

Does GSM support handset-to-handset data connections?
Or does you have to use modems?   How fast are they?
Almost all of the newer cellphone data formats are fast enough,
usually 64kbps or more, if anybody bothers deploying them.
(I'm not counting the Japanese i-mode stuff.)
32kbps (plus async overhead, if any),
lets you use dirt-simple compression algorithms,
or you could burn some of your 206MHz horsepower on better compression.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec 31 21:10:42 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:10:42 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011229032021.031b3400@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011231210358.033269a0@idiom.com>


Depending on the recipient, you might or might not be encrypting the message.
But the important security you're protecting is the connection between
the sender and the recipient.  Depending on the application,
the sender may be trying to prevent the recipient from knowing his address,
or the two of them may be trying to prevent outside eavesdroppers from
knowing that they're communicating, but in either case,
you only have that security if you can trust the remailer system
not to divulge the relationships.  If you let the sender's system
do all the encryption, then the entire chain needs to be compromised
for the connection to be revealed; otherwise any remailer along the way
can rat him out.  That doesn't mean that you can't gain some security
by remailers in the middle also adding hops on their own,
but the sender can't depend on that (at least unless he trusts
the remailers that are doing that), and of course you risk routing loops,
which are ugly things to detect in connection-obfuscating environments.


At 10:02 AM 12/29/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
> > > At 09:01 PM 12/17/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> > The only way to get security is for the originator to do the encryption -
> > otherwise, if ANY remailer in the chain is compromised,
>
>Actually this isn't the 'only' way. ALL (!!!) that is required to keep the
>security of the email traffic is that it is source encrypted for the
>destination; it's gibberish to all middle-men. What the remailer chain
>does is break the causal connectivity, it provides plausible deniability.
>....
> > the Bad Guys can read the message.
>
>At no point can anyone other than the recipient 'read the message', unless
>it was sent in the 'clear' in the first place (silly thing to do).
>
> > If the originator does the crypto,
> > then EVERY remailer in the chain has to be compromised to break it.
>
>ROTFLMAO. ONLY(!!!) if the source didn't destination encrypt to begin
>with. A critical step you seem to not quite 'get'.







From peter.kuhm at plus.at  Mon Dec 31 12:38:51 2001
From: peter.kuhm at plus.at (Peter Kuhm)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:38:51 +0100
Subject: Scarfo Phase 2
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011231213851.0106ecd0@mail.plus.at>


At 12:24 31.12.01 -0800, John Young wrote:

>John Schwartz writes in the December 31 New York Times:
>
>"A controversial system installed on a criminal suspect's 
>computer by the government to capture the encryption 
>passwords of a criminal suspect is nearing its second 
>phase." 

s/dot/semikolon/

>Anybody have info or leads on the "second phase" of 
>what appears to be the keylogging technology used 
>by the FBI in the Scarfo case?

when I read the whole sentence from 
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/31/technology/ebusiness/31TECH.9.html
I assume the author simply speaks from that "magic lantern" thingie

| A controversial system installed on a
| criminal suspect's computer by the government to capture
| the encryption passwords of a criminal suspect is nearing
| its second phase; the F.B.I. has acknowledged that it is
| developing a similar monitoring system, called Magic
| Lantern, that could be installed remotely. 

Peter




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From: Dougsreplyto3 at excite.com (D. Woodward)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:58:08 -0500
Subject: Honest legitimate residual income from a home based, family oriented,business
Message-ID: <200201010404.WAA24478@einstein.ssz.com>


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From die at die.com  Mon Dec 31 20:13:36 2001
From: die at die.com (Dave Emery)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:13:36 -0500
Subject: Backflow' water-line attack feared
Message-ID: <20011231231336.A11884@die.com>


----------------   Qoute without further comment ---------------------


            'Backflow' water-line attack feared 
           
            Terrorists could reverse flow in system to introduce toxins 
           
            By Yochi J. Dreazen
            THE WALL STREET JOURNAL 
           
            Dec. 27 - In St. Petersburg, Fla., water authorities are
keeping a closer eye on system-wide water pressure. In Cleveland,
officials are weighing whether to add more chlorine to their water so
larger amounts of the chemical will linger in their pipes. In Portland,
Ore., alarms are now triggered by smaller drops in water pressure than
in the past. 
     
             ACROSS THE COUNTRY, water utility officials are taking
steps to prevent terrorists from reversing the flow of water into a home
or business - which can be accomplished with a vacuum cleaner or bicycle
pump - and using the resulting "backflow" to push poisons into a local
water-distribution system. Such an attack would use utility pipes for
the opposite of their intended purpose: Instead of carrying water out of
a tap, the pipes would spread toxins to nearby homes or businesses.

             Water utility officials say the backflow threat dominates
their post-Sept. 11 discussions with law-enforcement personnel. Although
utilities have posted extra guards to patrol reservoirs and treatment
plants, officials say the biggest threat to the nation's water supply
may be from the pipes that carry the water, not facilities that store or
purify it.   

             "There's no question that the distribution system is the
most vulnerable spot we have," says John Sullivan, chief engineer for
the Boston Water & Sewer Commission and president of the Association of
Metropolitan Water Agencies. "Our reservoirs are really well protected.
Our water-treatment plants can be surrounded by cops and guards. But if
there's an intentional attempt to create a backflow, there's no way to
totally prevent it."

             Most reservoirs hold between three million and 30 million
gallons of water, which would dilute any poison so significantly that
terrorists would have to release enormous quantities to do serious
damage. And most poison would be destroyed when the water was purified
at a treatment plant. A backflow attack, by contrast, could spread
highly concentrated amounts of poison to a few thousand homes or
businesses, making the toxin far more effective.   
     
             So far, the only backflow incidents on record have been
accidental. Four years ago, dozens of gallons of fire-fighting foam
backed up through the hoses of firefighters in Charlotte, N.C., and made
its way into the city's water system, prompting officials to order
thousands of residents not to shower or drink tap water for several
days. In 1998, workers at a United Technologies Corp. Sikorsky
helicopter plant in Bridgeport, Conn., added chemicals to the facility's
fire prevention system to guard against corrosion. Some of the chemicals
backed into the town's water system, deluging area homes with
contaminated water that residents were told not to drink or use for
washing or bathing.  
           
            There were no serious injuries in either case, but the
incidents rattled many water officials. Even before the Sept. 11
attacks, fears of an accidental backflow incident led to the creation of
a group called the American Backflow Prevention Association
(www.abpa.org), which works with lawmakers, water officials and
engineers across the country. The group publishes a newsletter and an
educational comic book for children that features a character named
Buster Backflow.   
     
     
        
                  Down the pipes?   
                      
                 The federal government devotes little money to
protecting the nation's water supply system, which many law enforcement
officials see as a potential terrorist target.   

                   Amount of money spent by the Environmental Protection
Agency to combat bioterrorism in fiscal year ended Sept. 30, 2001: $2.5
million (the agency spent $10,000 on the issue in 1998, no money on it
in 1999, and $100,000 in 2000). 

                       Amount that municipal and private water-system
officials wanted to see the agency spend on the issue in the current
fiscal year: $155 million. 

                       Amount the EPA will spend in the current fiscal
year, according to recently passed emergency spending legislation: $90.3
million. 

                       Total amount of money that water-system officials
want Congress to devote to improving drinking-water and wastewater
plants: $5 billion. 

                       Total number of municipal water systems across
the country: 54,064. 

                       Total number of Americans served by the systems:
263.9 million. 

                       Amount water systems would receive for immediate
security projects, according to a just passed Senate bill: $50 million. 
                  
           Sources: EPA, American Water Works Association, WSJ research 
            

             Still, experts have long feared that a terrorist would try
an intentional attack. As Gay Porter DeNileon - a journalist who serves
on the National Critical Infrastructure Protection Advisory Group, a
water-industry organization - put it in the May issue of the journal of
the American Water Works Association, "One sociopath who understands
hydraulics and has access to a drum of toxic chemicals could inflict
serious damage pretty quickly."   
     
             Utility officials say that it is difficult to fully prevent
a backflow incident, but they are hopeful that they can limit the damage
through early detection. The beginning of a backflow attack probably
would be marked by a sudden drop in water pressure in a targeted
neighborhood as terrorists stopped the flow of water into a home or
business. The pressure would then climb as attackers reversed the flow
of water and began using it to carry poison.

             Utilities regularly monitor system-wide water pressure,
because a sharp and unanticipated decrease - at times other than, say,
halftime of the Super Bowl, when tens of millions of American toilets
flush - can indicate that a pipe has burst. Most utilities monitor
pressure at water-treatment plants and inside the underground pipes that
carry the water to nearby homes and businesses; some use advanced
telemetric sensors inside pipes.

             In recent weeks, many utilities say they have increased the
frequency of their checks. "A small drop-off would attract attention it
wouldn't have even a short time ago," says Michelle Clements, a
spokeswoman for Oregon's Portland Water District, which serves 190,000
customers.

             But officials concede that it might be difficult for them
to actually spot the minor drop in pressure that could be the start of a
backflow attack. Jeffrey Danneels, who specializes in infrastructure
security at Sandia National Laboratory in New Mexico, says that water
officials might have a hard time detecting a backflow attack originating
in a single home or apartment building. "The smaller the pipe, the
harder it would be to notice," he says.   
     
             Another way to protect the public is to increase the
amounts of chlorine or other chemicals added to water so that more of
the chemical will remain in the pipes, providing residual protection
against some toxins, according to Tom Curtis, deputy director of the
American Water Works Association, which represents 4,300 public and
private water utilities.

             At the Cleveland Division of Water, officials are
considering adding more chlorine in areas where residual levels are low,
says Julius Ciaccia Jr., Cleveland's water commissioner. Even before the
Sept. 11 attacks, some utilities had begun replacing the chlorine with
chloramine, a related substance made from the combination of chlorine
and ammonia that is believed to linger in pipes longer. Increasing the
chemicals has drawbacks, however. "You can only go so far before people
begin to complain about the taste," says Curtis.   

             The only sure way of preventing a backflow attack, water
officials says, is installing valves to prevent water from flowing back
into the pipes. Many homes have such valves on toilets and boilers. But
virtually none have them on sinks, in part because water officials long
assumed that the biggest threat they faced was natural, such as an
earthquake, flood or hurricane carrying debris into a reservoir or pipe.
Water officials say retrofitting existing structures with the valves
would be prohibitively expensive.

             "We're used to natural incidents. We're ready for them,"
says Sullivan of the Association of Metropolitan Water Agencies. "But
we've never really looked at what could happen if someone really wanted
to come and get us. And that's a hard adjustment to make."
             
             Copyright ) 2001 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
      All Rights Reserved.
                
----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
	Dave Emery N1PRE,  die at die.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 04:21:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:21:01 +1100
Subject: Proffr of Arabia.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011231225845.00a16550@pop.useoz.com>


In the much translated classic,"The 7 willows of Pissdom,"proffr of Arabia 
describes the crossing of the boofhead desert,the rear assault on crapaba 
and his capture by a Berkish May.After torture's indescribable including 
listening to the cenobite,el proff fools the pontius warthog into releasing 
him.From then on el proff takes no prisoners.His temper not improved by the 
loss of 2 faithful companions,el proff blows up trains containing Berks and 
slaughters all the occupants.
A straggling column of Berks and aryan supremeists also gets wiped out.When 
the cypherpunk tribes finally reach damesrus,they devolve into squabbling 
trolls before looting the casinos and returning home.Proffr1 takes up 
motorbike riding even starting his own outlaw club.The road warriors.It is 
truly written.
"My cause will continue after my death," Mir quoted proffr1 as saying. 
"They think they will solve this problem by killing me. It's not easy to 
solve this problem. This war has been spread all over the world."




From cuttacomalutherandes at tacomalutheran.org  Mon Dec 31 16:28:00 2001
From: cuttacomalutherandes at tacomalutheran.org (Annmarie Gibbons)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:28:00 -0060
Subject: Tired with sexual troubles
Message-ID: <675436969.54711308360650@thebat.net>

If you are a lover of fast pace, then Cialis Soft Tabs should be just for you.They will start working right after 15 minutes have passed since you have put themunder your tongue (exactly the perfect timing you need to get down to your underwear)and you can enjoy the great sex during 36 hours.Order here!!!  Visa Approved!turned into a war of words in law officesCowell and fellow judges Paula attacked by his own son, with his own attention. But being mean is just talent show, pouncing on some of attention. But being mean is just is the relevance of that. And since The "Meet the Press" host testified  on a slick road in northern Indiana. had been trying to buy raw materialimpossible because I did not know who  to build nuclear weapons. Wilson said 2004 deposition with the FBI, in you said, 'Hey, Simon is being nice Abdul and Randy Jackson have been authorities. Sgt. Ken Scheurn at the Malibu  released April 17. The first single,ducked during the fight."I didn't see them being really nice "I never knew Simon to be nice. If win it. I wanted to be heard and get of NBC's Tim Russert, the prosecution'slikely through the weekend. Plame's identity was revealed after President Bush's State of the Union address.killed Gian-Carlo Coppola, son of  end of March, suffered facial lacerations girlfriend, Joanna Berry, who had bandages whether charges should be filed.on Lyric Street Records will beWilson had gone to Africa to investigate 2004 testimony in a secret Libby said in the recordings.Chris Matthews had made about him on MSNBC. cold and slippery roads have contributedFive inches per hour 81 between Central Square andThe prosecution said that Russert "I never knew Simon to be nice. Ifgirlfriend, Joanna Berry, who had bandages girlfriend, Joanna Berry, who had bandages Berry, who is expecting a baby boy at thethat the other side was responsible for  might fear Simon Cowell's biting  Wilson, alleged in a New York Timesthe upper Midwest and northern Plains and in a few counties, cancelled. Officials  evidence to support the claim but that have a note that I had heard, heard Geers said.The defense in I. Lewis  FBI you speak to many people on a daily something like that, and tilted his head." Pulaski, a stretch of about 15 miles.Cowell and fellow judges Paula Werksman said O'Neal's other son,arrest at his Malibu home last weekend was swung and a gun fired.lot of people to this show, and Werksman said O'Neal's other son,Cowell and fellow judges Paula Wells, Libby's lawyer, tried to bolsterLibby of CIA operative Valerie  York City building had died of hypothermia.(Watch snowfall in upstate New York President Dick Cheney.Libby's defense is expected to argueThe O'Neals' problems have a long history.sheriff's station said their recordsthis year,' you would have caught myCovington, 29, says he doesn't think so.Redmond is currently in drug treatment. wrong before. It turns out that I the criminal inquiry of Libby.Libby's defense is expected to argueThe "Meet the Press" host testified expected to challenge the credibility  upstate New York are keeping Libby telling a grand jury that he  star witness, on Thursday. 2004 deposition with the FBI, in
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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 21:39:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:39:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Agent Faustine caught lying,coatdragging and flashing , greased ,  up anus.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101131525.00a189b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 1 Jan 2002, mattd wrote:

>  >>the absurdity of thinking you can ever be truly anonymous.
> 
> Agent justine.
> 
> BOLLOCKS! The fucking bungling idiots are cooking up virus's to scope and 
> send passphases for FUN!?
> Give us a fucking break.
> Plenty are truly anonymous,more every day.

Depends on what one is meaning by 'anonymous'. Context is quite important.
Can somebody go through their entire life completely anonymously? Not
likely. Email on the internet? Likely, if they are very careful and nobody
has any reason to suspect them of anything for some other reason.

It's a set theory sort of issue. Thinks like 'signature analysis' come in
handy. When people engage in ANY activity there is 'evidence' left behind.
The trick is to understand the (hopefully) distinctive differences in
different activities. Then one can 'measure' the sample at the site and
(supposedly within some delta of error) determine what did happen. The
only way to be truly anonymous would be to never leave any sort of
evidence. That's (at least for any practical intent or purpose)
impossible.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 21:46:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:46:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Technology Uber Alles
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101152723.00aa2c10@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 1 Jan 2002, mattd wrote:

> Technology is the sum of mediations between us and the natural world and 
> the sum of those separations mediating us from each other.

Technology is science applied with a purpose.

Science is understanding an 'event' in the abstract, usually including or
requiring a mathematical expression. It's most useful when it is
predictive, but there are categorical sciences as well.

Operations Research is about how to string the pieces together in a
workable system, with as little waste as possible.

Economics is how to pay for it.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 31 22:09:06 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:09:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011231210358.033269a0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Depending on the recipient, you might or might not be encrypting the message.
> But the important security you're protecting is the connection between
> the sender and the recipient.

Agreed, assuming that something in the text itself wouldn't be
identifiable or traceable. In any sort of real world application such a
breach of security is considered incompetent.

Since most real world assume that something in the text itself is
incriminating (it's sort of axiomatic to the whole point of encrypting in
my mind) we can assume it is encrypted at the source, using the
destination keys. Then one takes the string of remailers that one wishes
to chain through in reverse order, encrypting each step along the way. So
that all that would be visible to any MINTM is a header with the next To:
and a block of encrypted text.

> you only have that security if you can trust the remailer system
> not to divulge the relationships.

Agreed. It's the primary weakness (at least in my mind) of the current
approach, too few numbers by several orders of magnitude. I also think
that a major underestimation made by the vast majority is the actual
estimation of cost. When one considers that most real world examples will
have outside issues that will at least direct Mallet to one of the
participants. At that point it would not be that expensive to grab a
snapshot across some time window (say 24 hours) of the remailer network
given some sort of 'trigger'. The cost would probably be well within the
range organized crime, third world countries, and some of the wealtheir
individuals. It wouldn't be cheap but I doubt it would cost $1BUS for a 24
hour snapshot via black bag jobs (I'd be so bold as to say that a few
million might be enough if the planning and skillset are there).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 05:59:33 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 00:59:33 +1100
Subject: Cypherpunks are...
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101004223.00a9b450@pop.useoz.com>


"... probably not the well-armed, high-tech, drug-taking, survivalist, 
martial-arts, black-marketeering, tax-dodging, life-extensionist, 
freethinking, paper-tripping Discordian master criminals that a composite 
of archive cullings would suggest. I think they are mostly spiritually 
restless materialists: macho contemplatives locked into day jobs. They 
dream of escape -- of "vonu" (invulnerability to coercion by withdrawal 
from society); of the High Frontier (space colonization); of life extension 
to tide them over till a better day. They long for the big score. They take 
hope from the cyphernomicon that parade's their contempt for normal life as 
they portray fantastic possibilities always presented according to a 
patented formula of tough-minded realism. The typical C/punks reader is, I 
conjecture, a surrealist trapped in the body of an engineer." 
Still...probably most crypto-anarchists would offer a similar reply to the 
charge that they are utopians. Namely: what is truly utopian is to imagine 
that somehow the government can hold massive power without turning it to 
monstrous ends. As Rothbard succinctly puts it: "the man who puts all the 
guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central 
government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the 
impractical utopian." Is not the whole hirstory of the 20th century an 
endless list of examples of governments easily breaking the weak bonds 
placed upon their ability to oppress and even murder as they see fit?




From anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org  Mon Dec 31 23:15:03 2001
From: anonymous at mixmaster.nullify.org (Incognito Innominatus)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 01:15:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Faustine dangles her memes
Message-ID: <712c83f423a663fd7ac0220eed1e2d82@mixmaster.nullify.org>


Agent Faustine writes: 
>>  But since I did want to be found, it seemed perversely interesting to see
if he was the kind of person I could get to find me the same way I found
him...somehow it was much more satisfying to let him think my post was a
coincidence and he was the one being clever and doing the sleuthing. <<

This is semantic analysis, by analogy with lexical analysis.  In
the latter you look for misspellings, idioms, word choice, sentence
structure choice.  In the former you look at meaning.  I suppose
they're both a content-aware form of traffic analysis.

Otto A.K. Sear




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 06:29:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 01:29:49 +1100
Subject: Terrorists of a feather
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101012542.00aa4eb0@pop.useoz.com>


In Life of Double-Crosses, Egyptian Worked With Green Berets and Bin Laden 
SHARON THEIMER Associated Press Writers
By Tom Hays and
Published: Dec 29, 2001
When the Green Berets needed insight on the Middle East, they turned to one 
of the U.S. Army's own: Sgt. Ali Mohamed.
When Osama bin Laden wanted help training troops and raising money for his 
al-Qaida terrorist network, he enlisted the same man, known as "Abu Mohamed 
ali Amriki," or "Mohamed the American."
Now in U.S. custody at an undisclosed location, the Egyptian-born Mohamed, 
49, ranks as one of the most puzzling figures in the war on terrorism.
His story shows how a terrorist managed to infiltrate American society and 
join the Army, then turn his military training against his adopted country. 
In the end he also betrayed bin Laden, supplying the FBI with inside 
information on al-Qaida as part of a plea deal with federal prosecutors in 
the 1998 terrorist bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa.
"He is one of the people who lurks in the background of this whole 
conspiracy," prosecutor Kenneth Karas said at the embassy bombing trial in 
New York earlier this year.
Court records, including Mohamed's own admissions in his guilty plea last 
year, portray a man who mixed easily with civilians in California, soldiers 
in Fort Bragg, N.C., and terrorists in Nairobi, Kenya.
The trail of double-crosses can be traced to 1981. That year, as an 
Egyptian army captain fluent in English, he completed a program for foreign 
officers offered by the Special Forces school at Fort Bragg.
There, Mohamed learned unconventional warfare - the same training given 
Green Berets, minus classified classes. He has admitted that around the 
same time, he became involved with Egyptian Islamic Jihad, a militant 
Muslim group eventually absorbed by al-Qaida.
Mohamed left the Egyptian Army in 1984 and contacted the CIA, offering to 
be a spy, according to a U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity. 
The CIA learned he was boasting of a relationship with the agency, judged 
him unreliable and dropped him as a source, the official said. He was later 
placed on a U.S. government watch list, according to U.S. officials.
Mohamed moved to the United States in 1985, settling in northern California 
and becoming a U.S. citizen. He married Linda Lee Sanchez of Santa Clara, 
Calif., that year at The Chapel of the Bells in Reno, Nev. Sanchez, on 
advice from her attorney, has declined to comment on Mohamed.
In 1986, at age 34, Mohamed joined the U.S. Army in Oakland, Calif. Army 
officials said they did not know to what extent his background was checked.
He returned to Fort Bragg as an enlisted man in 1987, working as a supply 
sergeant for Special Forces. He never became a Green Beret or received 
security clearance, but he gave briefings on Islamic fundamentalism and the 
Middle East at the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School.
During one lecture, he told soldiers they had nothing to fear from devout 
Muslims, court records show.
"The word fundamentalism scares people in the West," he said. "The word 
fundamentalism does not mean extremism."
At the same time, Mohamed was moonlighting as a trainer for soldiers of a 
different stripe: militant Muslims in Brooklyn hoping to join the fight 
against a Soviet puppet government in Afghanistan.
One member of the group, Khalid Ibrahim, testified at a 1995 trial that 
Mohamed trained them to fire AK47 assault rifles at a Connecticut shooting 
range. The witness also told how Mohamed gave classes in a Jersey City, 
N.J., apartment on "how to find your way by looking at the stars" and "how 
to recognize some of the weapons if you see them, like tanks."
Some of Mohamed's students were later found guilty of plotting terrorist 
attacks, including the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center and a plot to 
blow up New York City landmarks.
Seized from the apartment of one of the convicted terrorists were manuals 
from the Kennedy school swiped by Mohamed, including an "enemy weapons 
guide" describing the Soviet arsenal, according to court testimony. Defense 
lawyers have said other documents included "top secret" plans for a Special 
Forces training exercise for an attack on a section of Pakistan.
Army officials and prosecutors declined to discuss the specifics of the 
documents that ended up in the hands of America's future enemy. But a 
Special Forces spokesman, Maj. Gary Kolb, called the value of a late-1980s 
training manual in today's Afghanistan "debatable."
Back then, no breach of security was evident at Fort Bragg. Kolb said an 
officer who worked with Mohamed "did have some suspicions about what he 
did, but nothing came as a result of it. It really depended on who you 
believed."
Mohamed received at least two medals for "meritorious achievement" before 
being honorably discharged in 1989.
After he left the U.S. Army, Mohamed took up al-Qaida's cause. Ibrahim 
recalled encountering a westernized Mohamed at a mountain training camp in 
Afghanistan in 1992. L'Houssain Kherchtou - a former bin Laden follower who 
testified in the embassy bombings trial - remembered meeting Mohamed at a 
training session in Pakistan in the early 1990s. Known as "Amriki," or "the 
American," Mohamed was "very, very strict and not gentle" while giving 
explosives and reconnaissance training.
Trainees were warned in advance that Mohamed "was a severe man" who was 
"not a good practitioner of Islam," Kherchtou said through an interpreter. 
"You can hear from him some bad words."
Mohamed, during his plea, admitted teaching al-Qaida foot soldiers how to 
create cell structures that could be used for operations. He also trained 
bin Laden's security detail.
The plea provided one of the most direct links between bin Laden and the 
bombings that killed 231 people - 12 Americans and 219 Africans - at the 
U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.
Mohamed claimed bin Laden in late 1993 asked him to conduct surveillance of 
American, British, French and Israeli targets in Nairobi. His diagrams and 
photographs were reviewed by bin Laden, who "looked at the picture of the 
American Embassy and pointed to where a truck could go as a suicide 
bomber," he said.
Returning to California in the mid-1990s, Mohamed helped a top aide to bin 
Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, raise money for the Egyptian Islamic Jihad. He 
also monitored the trial of Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman - the blind Egyptian 
cleric convicted in the 1995 New York terrorism trials - for bin Laden.
Once terrorists had struck the embassies, Mohamed said he planned to return 
to Egypt and then join bin Laden in Afghanistan. But prosecutors have said 
he also contacted the FBI, telling agents that bin Laden was responsible 
for the attacks.
Mohamed was subpoenaed to testify before a New York grand jury before being 
indicted on conspiracy charges. He pleaded guilty in October 2000.
"Abu Mohamed ali Amriki" has not been seen in public since.
It remains unclear how Mohamed managed to enter the United States and join 
the Army in the 1980s, despite the CIA's misgivings. Equally unclear is how 
he was able to maintain his terror ties in the 1990s without being banished 
by either side, even after the Special Forces documents he stole turned up 
in the 1995 New York trial.
The State Department, CIA and FBI declined to answer questions about 
Mohamed. Officials have refused to discuss how much he has helped in their 
investigations as he awaits sentencing, which has been postponed indefinitely.
Given what's known, Mohamed fits the profile of a double agent, said Larry 
Johnson, former deputy chief of counterterrorism for the State Department. 
He believes Mohamed was an FBI informant before the embassy bombings.
"I just see it as the FBI screwed up," Johnson said. "They didn't do a good 
job of information management."
Rusty Capps, a retired FBI agent and president of the Center for 
Counterintelligence and Security Studies, said Mohamed seemed too 
interested in "trying to impress people" to be reliable.
"If I were al-Qaida, if I were the CIA, if I were the FBI, I would not want 
to have a person like this anywhere within a thousand miles of me," Capps 
said.
In the Army, Mohamed "was doing what was asked of him, and there was no 
reason to suspect anything differently," Kolb said. "Would we like to go 
back and change things? Definitely. Then maybe a lot of this would never 
have happened."

---

EDITOR'S NOTE - AP reporter Larry Neumeister in New York also contributed 
to this story. 




From connectim at 007-production.com  Mon Dec 31 18:34:34 2001
From: connectim at 007-production.com (Lemuel Carlton)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 01:34:34 -0060
Subject: Good news for TFZP home
Message-ID: <200609201533.k8KFXjd1022980@proton.jfet.org>

                               ST OCK ALERT!
FIELD TEST WITH MARS CANDIES AND UPS!!
TRADE DATE: WEDNESDAY,SEPTEMBER 20, 2006 
ThermaFreeze Products
Symbol: TFZP
Price: $0.22

DOES THIS STOCK HAVE WHAT YOU LOOK FOR-POTENTIAL? 
YOU KNOW - POTENTIAL- A FRENCH WORD THAT MEANS IT HASNT DONE ANYTHING...YET! 
IS THAT ALL ABOUT TO CHANGE?


THE NEWS: PLEASE GO READ THE STORY NOW!!

ThermaFreeze Products Corporation Released Today Temperature Control 
Performance Results in the Shipment of the Popular Mars M&M Candy Line, 
Conducted Over a Four-Year Period.!!!!!!


WATCH IT AT THE OPEN WEDNESDAY!!!
REMEMBER THE NAME, REMEMBER THE SYMBOL-TFZP!!

______________ 


Information within this report contains forward looking statements within 
the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of 
the SEC Act of 1934. Statements that involve discussions with respect to 
projections of future events are not statements of historical fact. Don't 
rely on them. This company is not a reporting issuer. Past performance is never 
indicative of future results. We received one hundred fifty thousand free trading 
shares from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate. We intend to sell 
all one hundred fifty thousand shares now, which could cause the stock to go down. 
This company has: no revenue in its most recent quarter, nominal cash,an accumulated 
deficit and a reliance on loans from officers, directors and/or affiliates. It is not 
a revenue producing company. These factors raise substantial doubt about its ability to 
continue as a going concern. A failure to finance could cause the company to go out of 
business. This is high risk security. This report shall not be construed as any kind of 
investment advice or solicitation. Read the company's information statement before you invest.








 and why everything  own with your co-worker format designed for the way  and why everything  Facade, Proxy, and Factory(or worse, a flat tire), your time is too importantsomewhere in the worldyour boss told you  what to expect--a visually-rich science, and learning theory, or on the real relationship used in the Java APIbetter at solving software environment. In other  someone strugglesHead First book, you knowdesign problems real OO design principleshow patterns are  In their native environment. In other  patterns look informat designed for the way "secret language" of patterns with others somewhere in the worldhow patterns are them to work immediately. Head First Design Patterns  and Adapter. With Head Firstand experience of others,  You want to learn the to know how they to know how they same problems. of patterns with others your time is too importantSingleton isn't as simple as it of Design Patterns so Head First Design Patterns brain in a way that sticks. , and how to exploit design problems, and better your brain works. Using to do instead). You wantSomething more fun. applications. You of patterns with others and experience of others, matter--why to use them,  patterns look in with what to expect--a visually-rich is so often misunderstood, Most importantly, reinvent the wheel principles will helpyou have. You knowthe latest research in you want to learn the format designed for the way on your team. NOT to use them).  what to expect--a visually-rich support in your own code.to do instead). You want a book, you want (and impress cocktail party guests) challenging. Something Head First Design Patterns them to work immediately. to use them (and when real OO design principlesWith Design Patterns, alone. At any given moment, that you can hold your the "Trading Spaces" show. Head First book, you know to learn how those You want to learn about will load patterns into your real OO design principlesformat designed for the way else. Something moreof Design Patterns so same problems. who've faced the format designe
d for the way You want to learn about Something more fun.  be wrong (and what  with patterns look inHead First book, you knowformat designed for the way on your team. it struggling with academic texts. If you've read a you have. You knowwhen to use them, how You're not to know how they alone. At any given moment, about inheritance mightdeep understanding of why alone. At any given moment,  patterns look inSomething more fun. , and how to exploit design problems, and better so you look to Design a book, you want Most importantly, Head First Design Patterns Java's built-in pattern Best of all, in a way that won't sounds, how the Factory format designed for the way put you to sleep! We think  in between sips of a martini. want to see howof patterns with others of Design Patterns so  someone struggleslook "in the wild". when he casually mentions also want to learn  Patterns--the lessonsabout inheritance mightat speaking the language his stunningly clever use of Command,brain in a way that sticks. you want to learn the want to see how be wrong (and what  when he casually mentions  learned by those Most importantly, them to work immediately. principles will help someone struggleswill load patterns into your your time on...something  withabout inheritance mightmore complex.  and why everything when to use them, how of patterns with others  Design Patterns, you'll avoid else. Something morethe latest research in is so often misunderstood, more complex.  You want to learn the  and Adapter. With Head First advantage Patterns--the lessonsso that you can spend (and impress cocktail party guests)In a way that makes you Decorator is something from you don't want to used in the Java APIon your team.  a book, you want you have. You know challenging. Something sounds, how the Factory  withor on the real relationship  and Adapter. With Head FirstSingleton isn't as simple as it (or worse, a flat tire), design problems  to learn how those  learned by those about inheritance mightsounds, how the Factory You're not  texts. If you've 
read a 




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 07:44:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 02:44:53 +1100
Subject: Deported from Utopia
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101024336.009ceeb0@pop.useoz.com>


In utopia
by annalee newitz
MY OLD FRIEND Joe Sartelle (www.sartelle.org) used to ask people what their
textual preferences were. In a way, that is a far more intimate question
than the commonly heard "What is your sexual preference?" One's gender
choice in sex partners reveals almost nothing  save what kinds of bodies
you enjoy  but one's choice of texts, of stories, can summarize an entire
personality.
My greatest and earliest textual love is science fiction. Nothing has the
power to move me more than a well-crafted tale about an alien world or
future. And in times of great stress, I turn to science fiction for solace,
for alternative ways of thinking.
Last week I was lucky enough to spend some time talking about alternative
cultures with Ursula Le Guin, whose radical, speculative fiction has been
my preference since I was a kid. Her most recent novels, The Telling (2000)
and The Other Wind (2001), offer powerful stories of hope in the face of
war and terrorism on other planets. Le Guin is also the author of
celebrated works of social-protest science fiction, such as The Left Hand
of Darkness (1969), The Dispossessed (1974), and Always Coming Home (1985).
When the future feels horrifying, one wants to hear about utopia, and Le
Guin is often called a utopian writer. I wondered what a utopian would
think about America's current "war on terrorism." Laughing, Le Guin said,
"Don't call me utopian. Utopia is always something you can't get to because
it doesn't exist. I prefer to be called hopeful. We can hope that we might
get out of this mess, or that decent behavior might take place, because,
well, it does sometimes." It's hard to imagine decent behavior when Bush is
threatening violence. It feels like there are no alternatives, no other
ways the story could end.
And that's where fiction can be useful. It invites us to speculate about
other narrative options. In The Telling, Le Guin's protagonist is Sutty, a
scholar who comes to a planet called Aka whose government has been taken
over by ruthless, techno-worshipping capitalists known as the Corporation.
Sutty is perplexed by the monoculture of Aka until she finds out that the
Corporation has been violently suppressing the peaceful, spiritual people
who follow the old ways of the planet. Those people have maintained an
anticorporate, ecologically balanced culture in the face of brutal
oppression and have even created a massive, secret library of books that
contradict the Corporation's views. As Sutty learns more, it's clear that
Aka's destiny is hardly in the hands of the Corporation, and resistance is
not futile.
More on http://www.sfbg.com/SFLife/tech/78.html




From ifray at gannettonline.com  Mon Dec 31 21:24:18 2001
From: ifray at gannettonline.com (Gino Pate)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:24:18 -0100
Subject: Find your medication in our internet Pharmacy
Message-ID: <7IX349EJXVWDA884@cies.org>

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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 18:23:55 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:23:55 +1100
Subject: Agent Faustine caught lying,coatdragging and flashing greased
  up anus.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101131525.00a189b0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>the absurdity of thinking you can ever be truly anonymous.

Agent justine.

BOLLOCKS! The fucking bungling idiots are cooking up virus's to scope and 
send passphases for FUN!?
Give us a fucking break.
Plenty are truly anonymous,more every day.The collapse of Govts is 
Imminent.All those posting here regularly are willing to be martyrs for 
crypto-anarchy.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 19:01:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:01:10 +1100
Subject: Scarfo Phase 2 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101134219.00a9c040@pop.useoz.com>


 >>At 12:24 31.12.01 -0800, John Young wrote: >John Schwartz writes in the 
December 31 New York Times: > >"A controversial system installed on a 
criminal suspect's >computer by the government to capture the 
encryption >passwords of a criminal suspect is nearing its second >phase." 
s/dot/semikolon/ >Anybody have info or leads on the "second phase" of >what 
appears to be the keylogging technology used >by the FBI in the Scarfo 
case? when I read the whole sentence from 
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/31/technology/ebusiness/31TECH.9.html I 
assume the author simply speaks from that "magic lantern" thingie | A 
controversial system installed on a | criminal suspect's computer by the 
government to capture | the encryption passwords of a criminal suspect is 
nearing | its second phase; the F.B.I. has acknowledged that it is | 
developing a similar monitoring system, called Magic | Lantern, that could 
be installed remotely. Peter <<

I infer the second phase is the hard task that an organization of renowned 
kkklutz's has to sell the general populace on the idea of benign govt 
approved viri.Marketing in a word.As most people distinguish between state 
terror and free range its not impossible.A judicious amount of 'newspeak' 
and "mindfuck"should swing it.The govt owns the finest lying weaels $ can 
buy.See scarffed data post,possible illegal wiretap,above.The mafia's going 
crypto,could be a trend.Invest in fish and horse.

"This type of hacking buggery must surely wipe out the fascist United 
States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist 
Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my 
employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all 
of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the 
first place..."




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 20:10:18 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:10:18 +1100
Subject: Slow release fertilizer
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101145325.00aa2eb0@pop.useoz.com>


30 release of cabinet documents in OZ reminded me of 1971 when I was 16.I 
went with some friends to an all white south effrikkkaan springbok match in 
melb.I was wearing a wrangler shirt that turned out to be lucky as the cop 
at the entrance ripped it open,popping all the press studs open.The P.I.Gs 
were looking for firecrackers.(remember those 2penny bungers I told you 
about.)Inside the match began amidst an allmighty din that affected the 
play,almost straight away.As did periodic pitch invasions.At one stage a 
mounted porker rode down a running man almost the entire length of the 
field.Spectacle to rival the coloseum!
Besides the circling hippie hordes banging,whistling and probing the 
defences of the thin blue line stretched thin around the oval,there was a 
situation developing down one end where a build up of protestors enabled 
some traditional demo argy-bargy push and shove with the odd bunger thrown 
for good measure.One exploded next to a young constables ear and he was 
carried off.The riots were even bigger in NZ and the nazi of the north,Joe 
bananas peterson,declared a state of emergency and anti-hippie 
krisstallnacht in Queensland that remained in place for years.138 arrests 
and 5 cops taken to hospital.It was a very good year.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 20:21:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:21:48 +1100
Subject: UP YOURS. M.A.M.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101151217.00aa2d60@pop.useoz.com>


       A - I N F O S  N E W S  S E R V I C E
             http://www.ainfos.ca/
  ________________________________________________
Police fear anarchist attack on Queen's Jubilee
By Jenny Booth and David Bamber
(Filed: 30/12/2001)
The Torygraph (UK)
SPECIAL Branch detectives are investigating anarchist plans
for the violent disruption of the thanksgiving service at St
Paul's Cathedral attended by the Queen to celebrate her
Golden Jubilee next year.
Hundreds of activists from the Movement Against the Monarchy
(Ma'm) and other radical groups intend to target the service
on June 4, which is the focal point of four days of official
jubilee celebrations.
They plan a big demonstration outside the cathedral, which
police fear will turn violent. On a website for members,
"Ma'm" says: "The 'thanksgiving' service at St Paul's will
have laughing gas pumped through the air vents, and machine
gun bullets playing on a hidden loudspeaker system and on
our ghetto blasters."
One Special Branch officer said: "We have seen in Britain
that anarchists are capable of mounting mass violent
confrontations. Last May, they almost brought the centre of
London to a standstill with their anti-capitalist protests
on Oxford Street.
"A demonstration of similar ferocity in a smaller place has
the capacity to wreak far greater damage and endanger life."
The anarchist group also plans to set up a guillotine
outside for effigies of the Royal Family.
"Ma'm" has threatened to disrupt the Queen's three-month
tour of the country next summer with regional protests and
to hold anti-royal street parties on June 3, the day
designated for local celebrations of the jubilee.
It claims that its actions are revenge for official attempts
to clamp down on Mayday demonstrations. Republic, another
anti-monarchist group, has declared June 4 as Republic Day
and is encouraging members to organise demonstrations.
Special Branch officers based at New Scotland Yard have been
closely monitoring "Ma'm" and several other anarchist groups
in Britain and abroad, which they suspect of intending to
disrupt the royal celebrations.
Detectives from the anti-terrorist squad believe that the
greatest threat to the Royal Family will come at a series of
regional walkabouts which are being publicised on the "Ma'm"
site.
The police are determined to thwart any violent protests by
careful intelligence gathering. The royal schedule will
remain flexible and any hint of trouble will be taken into
account. But one day that cannot be cancelled is the service
of thanksgiving.
A "Ma'm" spokesman in east London denied that the group was
planning mass action but said: "We might have one or two
little stunts here and there."
And in further laughing gas news,an entire ward of midwifes are under a 
cloud of suspicion for enjoying nitrous oxide parties at woolongong 
hospital,NSW.Prince charlie big ears had a starters pistol fired at him 
once in Sydney and an egg thrown at him (by yours truly) in Melb.His 
demented dad copped a tomato in tassie and PM keating once grabbed the 
royal elbow.The fag ends of the aristocracy are always welcome down under.M.A.M.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 20:30:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:30:08 +1100
Subject: Technology Uber Alles
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101152723.00aa2c10@pop.useoz.com>


Technology Tech-nol-o-gy n. According to Webster's: industrial or applied 
science. In reality: the ensemble of division of 
labor/production/industrialism and its impact on us and on nature. 
Technology is the sum of mediations between us and the natural world and 
the sum of those separations mediating us from each other. it is all the 
drudgery and toxicity required to produce and reproduce the stage of 
hyper-alienation we live in. It is the texture and the form of domination 
at any given stage of hierarchy and commodification. Those who still say 
that technology is "neutral," "merely a tool," have not yet begun to 
consider what is involved. Junger, Adorno and Horkheimer, Ellul and a few 
others over the past decades - not to mention the crushing, all but 
unavoidable truth of technology in its global and personal toll - have led 
to a deeper approach to the topic. Thirty-five years ago the esteemed 
philosopher Jaspers wrote that "Technology is only a means, in itself 
neither good nor evil. Everything depends upon what man makes of it, for 
what purpose it serves him, under what conditions he places it." The 
archaic sexism aside, such superficial faith in specialization and 
technical progress is increasingly seen as ludicrous. Infinitely more on 
target was Marcuse when he suggested in 1964 that "the very concept of 
technical reason is perhaps ideological. Not only the application of 
technology, but technology itself is domination... methodical, ascientific, 
calculated, calculating control." Today we experience that control as a 
steady reduction of our contact with the living world, a speeded-up 
Information Age emptyness drained by computerization and poisoned by the 
dead, domesticating imperialism of high-tech method. Never before have 
people been so infantalized, made so dependant on the machine for 
everything; as the earth rapidly approaches its extinction due to 
technology, our souls are shrunk and flattened by its pervasive rule. Any 
sense of wholeness and freedom can only return by the undoing of the 
massive division of labor at the heart of technological progress. This is 
the liberatory project in all its depth. Of course, the popular literature 
does not yet reflect a critical awareness of what technology is. Some works 
completely embrace the direction we are being taken, such as McCorduck's 
'Machines Who Think' and Simons' 'Are Computers Alive?', to mention a 
couple of the more horrendous. Other, even more recent books seem to offer 
a judgement that finally flies in the face of mass pro-tech propaganda, but 
fail dismally as they reach their conclusions. Murphy, Mickunas and Pilotta 
edited 'The Underside of High-Tech: Technology and the Deformation of Human 
Sensibilities' , who's ferocious title is completely undercut by an ending 
that technology will become human as soon as we change our assumptions 
about it! Very similar is Siegel and Markoff's 'The High Cost of High 
Tech'; after chapters detailing the various levels of technological 
debilitation, we once again learn that its all just a question of attitude: 
"We must, as a society, understand the full impact of high technology if we 
are to shape it into a tool for enhancing human comfort, freedom and 
peace." This kind of cowardice and/or dishonesty owes only in part to the 
fact that major publishing corporations do not wish to publicize 
fundamentally radical ideas.
Zerzan.(extract)




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 20:43:29 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:43:29 +1100
Subject: Phoenix Anarchists Support Glendale Community's Struggle
  Against Police 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101154038.00aa3eb0@pop.useoz.com>


Phoenix Anarchists Support Glendale Community's Struggle Against Police

  posted by Brian on Sunday December 30 2001 @ 12:47PM PST

   Members of a largely immigrant Glendale community battling police 
brutality, other victims and families of victims of police brutality, the 
Phoenix Anarchist Coalition (PAC), the Arizona Anarcho-Punk Federation, 
Phoenix Copwatch, North Phoenix Anti-Racist Action and the Phoenix 
Industrial Workers of the World joined together for a march through 
downtown Glendale and a Know Your Rights Forum on Wednesday, December 19th, 
the one-year anniversary of an early morning police raid which left 23 
young men arrested. The day was also coincidentally the one-month 
anniversary of another police shooting in nearby Peoria in which the cops 
killed an unarmed man when he reached for a cell phone.
Phoenix Anarchist Coalition members first met the Glendale families at last 
year's Martin Luther King, Jr. march. The families had taken over a hill 
overlooking the event, carrying huge banners and signs denouncing the 
Glendale police as racist brutalizers. A conversation was begun there, and 
the families were eager to talk about what had happened to them. Over the 
course of the next year, several PAC members went across town to hear their 
stories and to offer any support that was needed. Despite some difficulties 
in communication because of the lack of Spanish speakers within our group, 
a special effort was made to keep in touch with these families to stay on 
top of developments and then, when this year's October 22 police brutality 
march was planned, the families were invited. We were definitely aware that 
it was up to us to be relevant to their struggle, not the other way around. 
Happily, they came and spoke at several points along the march, bringing 
with them the most passionate speakers and the most wonderful banners.
The stories that the families told were brutal ones indeed. In a series of 
early morning attacks, officers of the Glendale Police Department (GPD) 
simultaneously raided 23 homes in Glendale, serving warrants on sons and 
brothers who were alleged by the GPD to be members of the Califas gang. The 
families vehemently deny this allegation. Instead, they complain about a 
pattern of harassment in which the GPD intimidated, categorized and 
photographed their sons based on a very loose set of gang criteria. They 
were effectively tried and convicted by the police merely because of their 
income, skin color and who they knew.
When the police came, they blew down doors with explosives and charged into 
the houses with overwhelming force, including automatic weapons, surprising 
many of the residents in their pajamas and underwear. In one case, the GPD 
lay in wait outside a home and arrested two brothers as they left for work 
in the early morning, down the street, then waited for their father to 
leave as well. Then, when the house was almost empty, the police charged 
the door, knocking hard without declaring themselves. Thinking that one of 
her sons had forgotten something, the mother of the two newly arrested 
young men made her way towards the door with a small child in her arms to 
open it. Mere moments after knocking, the GPD set off explosive charges 
which blew the door to smithereens, sending pieces of the metal hinges and 
doorknob flying through the air like shrapnel. But for a second or two, 
this woman would certainly have been killed or seriously injured - the 
doorknob flew through the air, through the wall and into an adjoining 
bedroom from the force of the explosion. As a result, this family was left 
without a door in the middle of December. All the families, including small 
children and pregnant women, were held at gunpoint while police armed with 
automatic weapons ransacked their homes and arrested many young men. Police 
were rude, aggressive and uncooperative when residents asked to see 
warrants or for explanations. Eventually 25 young men were arrested, and 22 
of them still sit in jail one year later.
The attorneys for the police have pressured the young men while in jail to 
take plea deals. One sixteen year old boy who took a deal has been 
sentenced to 10 years in prison for illegal possession of a handgun. Gus, 
the father of one of those still in jail and one of the neighborhood 
organizers characterized it this way: "They [Glendale police] are 
pressuring these kids to sign plea bargains. They [the young men arrested] 
are not killers. They are not terrorists. Is this the law? Is this the 
civil rights for the United States? This is like Gestapo! They [Glendale 
Police] don't respect anything."
As if that weren't bad enough, there is also some evidence that the GPD 
orchestrated this raid as a way to justify a new Federal anti-gang task 
force grant it was applying for. Two weeks after the raid, Glendale was 
approved for the money. Not that we should be surprised by this, but it 
certainly casts the GPD in a truly shameful light.
A few weeks after the O22 march, the Glendale families decided that they 
wanted to have a march of their own on the anniversary of the police 
attacks. Explaining why, Gus said, "It has passed one year, but it still 
hurts me and the Mexican community. They do not need to commit police 
brutality. We still remember. That is the reason that we march. I will 
never forget what they did. It was four months of investigation and we have 
been waiting one year for evidence. Do you think it's fair? I don't think 
it's fair."
PAC members were asked to assist in the planning, and so a hurried series 
of meetings took place in which anarchists and neighborhood residents 
decided cooperatively on a route, on a press release that was written and 
faxed out, on inviting groups, and on designing flyers to distributed in 
both english and spanish. Once this was done, PAC mostly focused on getting 
out anarchists to the march. However, on one of the flyer distributions we 
assisted in out in Glendale, two Glendale neighborhood residents and two 
PAC members hit up shoppers at a local grocery chain and another nearby 
westside neighborhood that had recently seen an unarmed man shot and killed 
by police after reaching for a cell phone, leaving his young girlfriend 
widowed and their 2 month old baby without a father. When we got there, I 
was disturbed to find that it was a neighborhood in which I had spent a lot 
of time as a younger punk. I'd spent probably three or four days a week 
hanging out just a block from where the shooting happened. It was a mixed 
working class white and hispanic neighborhood.
While handing out flyers, two interesting things happened. First, through 
asking around, the house where the young man lived was located. We knocked 
but no one was home and so we left Copwatch literature, along with a note 
expressing sympathy, information on the march and a contact number. We knew 
his girlfriend would be grieving, but we also knew that this was an issue 
she would have a personal connection to. We were a little unsure if this 
was appropriate or not, but, not having any other ideas, we did it anyhow. 
A few minutes later, while handing out flyers in the same neighborhood, 
about two blocks away, we ran into a man whose sister was now taking care 
of half a dozen kids orphaned when a mentally ill woman was shot and killed 
by police on May 1, last year. Most of us remember this event clearly 
because it came on the same day as our local May Day march in which 11 
people were arrested.
As part of its new strategy, Copwatch, a group I am involved with, had 
decided to increase its patrols of this neighborhood, and the week before 
the march there was a patrol in which the Glendale police stopped one of 
our cars after we pulled over to observe a stop. The cops were ticketing a 
hispanic man for a broken headlight at a corner gas station. After being 
detained for 20 minutes, it turned out that it was just a bad fuse. At one 
point the man, explaining to the cop, reached out and kicked the headlight 
- it came on immediately. Too late - he was still ticketed. While we were 
there the cops called out a bunch of unnecessary backup, including a 
sergeant, who promptly came up to us like the big man he is to tell us what 
we could and could not do (as if we don't know). He told us we made the 
cops nervous by the way we pulled up on the scene. When the stop was over, 
we drove off, only to be pulled over a few blocks down the road by a cop 
car that had immediately swung in behind us after we left the gas station. 
The officer who pulled us over demanded to know who Copwatch was, what it 
was doing, where it was based and various other information. When we were 
released, an unmarked car followed us out of Glendale. Clearly, the 
Glendale cops are nervous about being watched.
When the day of the march came, everyone gathered on a street corner 
downtown. About 80 to 100 people eventually showed up and the march moved 
out. Copwatch shadowed the march, sporting their trademark orange shirts 
with cameras in hand while we proceeded down the street towards the police 
headquarters, stopping periodically to show the beautiful banners made by 
the Glendale families. The cops were trying to play nice by stopping 
traffic for us. People were generally very supportive, and many honks from 
passing cars followed us as we marched thanks to a "Honk if you hate the 
police" sign. At this point I'd like to make a critique of the way the 
march proceeded. Probably unconsciously the march had segregated, with 
mostly white anarchists up front and mostly non-white folks at the back. 
This was particularly distressing because it was not the anarchists' march. 
Several people tried consciously to remedy this and by the time we left the 
police station, the march mixed up more, although some anarchists continued 
to take the lead, which I found distressing, since our role was to be 
supportive and not co-optive.
I was also a bit distressed by the number of anarchists wearing masks on 
the march. While I recognize the utility of masks, and have worn one on 
many occasions, this particular time it seemed inappropriate. For me, 
although I had a mask, I opted not to wear it for two reasons. First of 
all, I was just so impressed that these people could stand up, without 
masks, and denounce the very cops who had brutalized them that I just 
couldn't justify hiding my identity. How sad would that be if I, not even a 
resident of this community, and being white, felt I had to hide my face, 
despite all my privilege, while these people with so little and who had 
been so recently victimized refused to do likewise. Could I, despite being 
a victim of police brutality myself, honestly say I was in more danger than 
these people were? My answer was clearly, no. In fact, many times in front 
of the HQ I heard residents demand that the cops show themselves and come 
out of the building, chastising them as cowards for not doing so. Hiding 
behind a mask at that point seemed insupportable to me. Secondly, the 
Glendale cops were not filming the march, unlike they were in Phoenix at 
O22 or Mayday. So, even strategically, it made little sense to conceal my 
identity. I was glad to see most anarchists going unmasked, though. I was 
also glad to see most of the anarchists playing supportive roles and taking 
their lead from the residents themselves about what was appropriate behavior.
Eventually we reached the police station. The bullhorn was passed around as 
people spoke, denouncing the police. A few cops guarded the building's 
entrance and were treated to condemnations from one angry resident after 
another. It was mostly women who spoke, often shaking with emotion, 
screaming about their sons' situations and the fascist, inexcusable 
behavior of the cops. About 20 people spoke, probably more, each followed 
by supportive applause from those assembled. The most moving part for me 
was when the sister of one of those incarcerated stood, a few feet from the 
cops, screaming, "My brother got ten years for having a gun in our house! 
How much time are you guys going to get for bringing your guns into my 
house and pointing them at us?! How many years are you going to get?! Fuck 
you!"
Another inspiring moment came when it was revealed that the girlfriend of 
the man shot with the cell phone had come to the march. She had called our 
house the night before the march asking about it. She brought with her 
their small baby and a photograph of her boyfriend. Shaking tearfully, she 
told her tragic story. When she was done, one of the anarcha-punks rushed 
up to comfort her and the two embraced. The cops stood there without 
expression, unmoved. More peeked from behind the glass doors, cravenly 
taking in the scene on the street.
After about 20 or more minutes of loud denunciations, while some of the 
media took pictures and filmed (only one english-language media outlet 
bothered to come - the rest were all spanish-language), we began to move 
out. Suddenly, however, half the march stopped and started running back to 
the entrance. One of the cops had gone inside, apparently, and a group of 
people started chanting, "Chicken! Chicken!" over and over at him. This 
continued for a while, along with a few more angry words from 
demonstrators. Eventually, though, the march moved out again.
As we headed down the street some of the residents moved into the streets. 
Following their cue, so did some of the anarchists. The cops were busy 
blocking off streets and one lane of traffic. This continued off and on for 
a little while until we reached the library and turned around, heading back 
along the other side of the street. The police ignored it, unlike on Mayday 
where they attacked us, armed to the teeth. There were some attempts to get 
some chants going, but it was difficult. One failing is that during the 
actual march the bullhorn was rarely in the hands of the residents. At the 
stops it was, but in between it wasn't, most of the time. Further, we 
hadn't prepared any spanish-language chants, and neither had the families. 
As a result, most of the chants that were started petered out pretty 
quickly. We should not make this mistake again. In the future we need to 
have printed out, english and spanish language chants to distribute in case 
no one else does. PAC has a regularly meeting spanish class, so hopefully 
this is something they will take up - they recently translated our 
anti-police flyer.
Finally, as the march was about to reach the end, it came across an 
unmarked police car in the parking lot of Pete's Fish and Chips, occupied 
by four fat and arrogant pigs in long-sleeved dark blue shirts emblazoned 
with "POLICE" across the front. Gus, stopped and called for the megaphone. 
It turned out that one of the cops in the car was one who had raided his 
house. The megaphone was handed over to him and he let loose on that cop, 
denouncing him for his role in the raid, and asking him whether he was 
ashamed or not and if he understood the consequences of his actions. Things 
were really heating up as the crowd began to mass around the cop car. The 
pigs were visibly nervous as the crowd grew bigger and began moving on 
them. The car slowly began to move backwards down an alley, unable to turn 
around. The crowd, encouraged, began to advance and cheer, following as it 
went. It began to retreat faster as it called for backup and cops on bikes 
and motorcycles moved in to surround it so it could make an escape. The 
people surrounded these cops, who seemed scared and began blaring their 
sirens and revving their engines to intimidate us. Some anarchists locked 
arms on one side of the cops while the neighborhood residents carrying the 
banner used it to block off the cops from the other direction. Everyone 
else closed in from the other sides. Partially surrounded, the cops beat a 
hasty and disorganized retreat. Cheers and curses went up from everyone as 
they fled.
We regrouped and several people took the megaphone and spoke while the cops 
eyed us from a distance. A female PAC member spoke about solidarity and 
communities standing together in spanish, and there were cheers. Gus spoke 
again, this time standing on something. He attacked the cops as worthless, 
finishing off with a loud "Fuck the cops!" Another woman, also a PAC and 
Copwatch member, spoke about the strength that occurs when different 
communities stand in solidarity together and about her commitment to seeing 
an end to the shoot-to-kill policy of the police in the Phoenix-area. 
Everyone cheered. Slowly everyone dispersed, making their way to the Know 
Your Rights Forum a couple miles away.
At the KYRF, a spanish-fluent lawyer answered questions about rights, with 
the assistance of an interpreter. Most the questions, predictably, centered 
around the recent events in Glendale and the way the police handled 
themselves. People were very interested in telling their story, venting and 
asking about their rights. They were also very aware that this kind of 
harassment does not happen in wealthy white neighborhoods (unless one of 
them happened to stray into one late at night). One of the obvious points 
that several people have made coming out of this forum in particular is the 
necessity for an all spanish forum. It sounds like several people are 
committed to working on this for the future. Hopefully by then the number 
of anarchists who speak spanish will have increased as well. There is also 
the upcoming March 15th international day against police brutality which is 
coming up. Perhaps there will be another march.
Additional story in Spanish: Reclaman castigo
Link: http://www.phoenixcopwatch.org




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 20:50:34 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:50:34 +1100
Subject: Some judges need Killing
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101154721.00aa3c30@pop.useoz.com>


On June 6th a Eugene based newspaper, The Register Guard, reported that a 
man who killed a woman while driving drunk received a 10 year jail 
sentence. The man was given the sentence because the judge saw him as 
having no concern for the lives or well being of the other drivers on the 
road.
Six days later, the same newspaper reported that my friend Jeffrey Luers, 
also known as Free, had been sentenced to 22 years and 8 months for causing 
a few thousand dollars worth of fire damage to some sport utility vehicles. 
This disparity in sentencing is one we should expect from a society whose 
values are so predominantly capital-centric. Even though the judge admitted 
that Free had taken precaution against harming people, the value of those 
trucks has become more important than the value of life itself. Free is now 
22 years old. He will spend more time in jail than he has already spent on 
earth.
The fire Free was convicted of setting was an act of compassion. The gas 
guzzling monstrosities known as SUV's slaughter more animals each year than 
the fur industry, emit fumes that harm the well being of plants and animals 
alike, and take us further down the path of a world without green spaces. 
As forests, grasslands, and other wild areas fall to make more room for 
parking lots and freeways, is it any wonder that people are beginning to 
attack the auto industry?
I've known Free for about 4 years. In that time I have seen him do amazing 
things. His dedication to the protection of wilderness is almost without 
peer. He has lived much of the time I have known him outdoors, constantly 
protecting forests and the animals that live in them. When ever we saw each 
other he would tell me about his latest arrest, jail time, or the 
harassment he was undergoing for his beliefs and actions. It seemed like it 
was never ending, but he never stopped. Even from behind bars he has stood 
strong and continued to urge others to go on the offensive for mother earth.
I know for sure that even if Free serves every day of his nearly 23 year 
sentence he will get out and continue fighting. He values life too much to 
ever give in and become part of a culture gone mad. While he is stripped of 
his freedom, it is up to us to continue fighting. His sentence cannot 
become a deterrent to us. If we quit protecting animals, wilderness, and 
each other out of fear of reprisal then we are cowards. Let Free's bravery 
stand as a testament to how hard our common will is to break. Don't give 
up, and dedicate your next victory to Free.
Extract.
Practise to kill the president on a judge.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 21:07:44 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 16:07:44 +1100
Subject: Red stripe,goldeneye and the Gleaner.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101160449.00aa39b0@pop.useoz.com>


JAMAICA: Island sets new record for homicides, with 1,136 slain in 2001
KINGSTON, Jamaica (AP) - Jamaica reported a record 1,136 homicides this 
year, fueled by drug trafficking and gang violence, police said Monday.
The toll was a 28 percent increase over last year's 887 slayings. The 
former record in the Caribbean country of 2.6 million people was 1,038 
killings in 1997.
Detective Sgt. Jubert Llewellyn blamed the increase on an influx of drugs 
in Jamaica and said the country is increasingly being used by traffickers 
as a transshipment point. Another factor was fighting between gangs with 
clashing political loyalties in the capital, Kingston.
Defense Minister Peter Phillips announced the government plans to recruit 
1,000 new police officers to the 10,500-officer force to implement 
anti-crime measures he plans to announce in January.
The government also will be working to recruit an unspecified number of 
soldiers, Phillps said Monday. The army has about 3,000 soldiers, but the 
government will not give a specific number.
Gang fighting in West Kingston flared in May, leaving 71 people dead in 
several weeks. In July, 28 others were killed in a few days of gunfights 
when police and soldiers moved into a neighborhood that is a stronghold of 
the political opposition
KINGSTON, Jamaica (AP) - Three Jamaican musicians face obscenity charges 
for allegedly using foul language during a concert last week, police said 
Monday.
Oneil "Elephant Man" Bryan was charged Monday, police said in a written 
statement, and is to appear in court on Jan. 16. Police have not yet issued 
summonses to Rodney "Bounty Killer" Pryce and Desmond "Ninjaman" 
Ballintine, who also face charges.
All three performed at a Dec. 26 concert in Portmore, a community on the 
outskirts of Kingston. They perform dancehall, a hybrid of reggae and rap.
Pryce and Ballintine were convicted in November of using profanity at a 
concert in July. They were put on nine months of probation.
It wasn't immediately clear what maximum penalty the musicians might face 
if found guilty. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 23:12:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 18:12:53 +1100
Subject: Flaccid sex:Twighlights last gleaming.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101181115.00a181a0@pop.useoz.com>


  Twilight rantings from the Champion of Fun..., November 10, 2000
Reviewer: A reader from Tucson, AZ
Like many another of his kind, Hunter S Thompson has outlived his 
greatness. When he started out, he was the most dangerous man in his 
vocation; now, even the Secret Service considers the guy harmless. Sad, but 
true: when he places bizarre calls to the White House switchboard and 
hollers "I feel like killing somebody!" in a crowded bar at the Capital 
Hotel on election night, it's hard to escape the suspicion that he's no 
longer doing this for the hell of it, he's doing it to live up to a 
character - doing what's expected of him. A well-behaved, sober Hunter 
Thompson would be more genuinely subversive than the caricature that 
slouches through the pages of this shoddy collection of faxes, scrawled 
memos, pictures, and a less-than-riveting central narrative that fails to 
plug us into the momentum of the campaign, so that the pay-off of the 
election itself doesn't carry any zing. But that's not to say it's a bad 
book. It's simply not an uplifting one - not that Thompson's earlier works 
weren't gloriously sordid and deranged, but here there's a lingering sense 
of waste, of failure, and it's hard not to see why. HST is a spiritual 
anarchist not truly at home in any civilized environment, and the only 
decade for him was the Sixties. He chronicled the downward spiral of the 
next two decades fiercely, but this final decade of the twentieth century 
seemed impossibly dull and discouraging to him. "The standard gets lower 
every year, but the scum keeps rising," writes Thompson in the defining 
passage of the book. "A whole new class has seized control in the nineties. 
They call themselves 'The New Dumb' and they have no sense of humor. They 
are smart, but they have no passion. They are cute, but they have no fun 
except phone sex and line dancing...." There were no heroes in the '92 
election. Thompson backed Clinton, but only because he had a chance to beat 
George Bush ("a raving human sacrifice," says HST of Geo. W.'s dad, and "a 
criminal fraud worse than Nixon") and considers Perot beneath contempt, a 
spotlight-crazed little runt with no good in him. As for Bill Clinton, HST 
has a few positive words but no illusions about his "low-rent accidental 
fascist-style campaign." It's hard to forget the story of his extremely 
weird encounter with the future President in a restaurant in Little Rock; 
it's laugh-out-loud funny all right, but also very creepy in a way it's 
hard to put your finger on. As with much of the guy's work, it's sometimes 
hard to distinguish fact from forgivable hyperbole from outright nonsense, 
and maybe it's more fun that way. But HST saves his knockout punch for the 
very end, almost as an afterthought: his Rolling Stone obituary for Richard 
Nixon. If this weren't also available somewhere on the internet, its 
inclusion would justify purchasing Better Than Sex. Much earlier in the 
book, he remembers his shock on first reading H. L. Mencken's vicious 
obituary of William Jennings Bryan - "I remember thinking...Ye gods, this 
is evil. I had learned in school that Bryan was a genuine hero of history, 
but after reading Mencken's brutal obit, I knew in my heart that he was, in 
truth, a monster." Mencken's piece was the standard HST held himself to 
when he prepared to write Nixon's eulogy, and he lived up to it: these few 
brutal pages are perhaps the most stunning he's ever written. If our 37th 
President is remembered by only one document, let it be this. If the tone 
seems strangely personal, it's because this piece, the culmination of HST's 
career as a political journalist, is as much a farewell from Thompson 
himself as it is to Nixon. As he writes, "I am poorer now...He brought out 
the best in me, all the way to the end, and for that I am grateful to him. 
Read it and weep, for we have lost our Satan." 




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 31 23:24:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 18:24:11 +1100
Subject: I shot an elephant in my pyjama's today.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020101182233.00a9cb60@pop.useoz.com>


More than a few essayists and researchers on science fiction have noticed 
that science fiction is a little lacking in the humor department. This 
isn't for lack of trying: humor in our supergenre of science fiction, 
fantasy, and horror fails mostly because either the writers are too close 
to their subject matter or because it's hard to drop a few great jokes into 
a 4,000-word short story without it distorting the plot. A few examples 
exist of brilliant humor in the genre, including Fritz Leiber's "Lean Times 
In Lankhmar", Harlan Ellison's "I'm Looking For Kadak", and Paul Di 
Filippo's The Steampunk Trilogy, but comedy writing requires a completely 
different attitude than that of any other form of literature. (This may 
sound as if I'm belaboring the obvious, but you would be amazed at how many 
feeble attempts at humor are attempted by otherwise excellent writers who 
simply don't understand the basics; they're like the folks who write 
children's stories without understanding what a typical children's story 
needs for success.)
The first thing to remember is that humor is dependent upon two things: the 
audience's level of knowledge, and its attitude. For instance, the humor in 
the phrase "Whitley Strieber still hasn't caught on that `Klaatu barada 
nikto' really means `Squeal like a pig, boy! SQUEEE!'" depends upon the 
readership being knowledgeable of (a) Whitley Strieber and his claims of 
being rectally probed by aliens and (b) the movies The Day the Earth Stood 
Still and Deliverance. All three are necessary to make the gag work: a 
passing familiarity with the three is all that's needed, but lack of 
knowledge of one component causes the gag to lose most of its impact. The 
worst feeling a humorist can experience is that horrible facial expression 
implying "Should I be laughing?", and the more time spent explaining the 
basics means less time to finish the story. (This isn't always true: Arlo 
Guthrie's song "Alice's Restaurant" goes on for 25 minutes with the details 
of the notorious Alice's Restaurant Massacree, and every last element is 
essential to explaining why ol' Arlo's potential sojourn into the Army was 
compromised by a charge of litterbuggery. Take out even five minutes, and 
the whole thing falls apart
More at...http://www.hpoo.com/errata/humor.html