From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 1 00:37:18 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:37:18 +0800 Subject: "An who shall guard the guardians?" In-Reply-To: <199608010119.UAA24361@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Timothy C. May wrote: > > ObClipper: "Who shall guard the guardians?" While the various Clipper > > proposals have putative safeguards to limit access, think of Craig > > Livingstone, a rent-a-cop the Clintons hire to work on their Enemies List. > > And think of the dossiers of J. Edgar Hoover. And think of Nixon. And think > > of what President Pat Buchanan would do with Government Access to Keys. > What President Pat Buchanan would do with Government Access to Keys, I > wonder? (seriously) Probably the same as Herr Clinton. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 1 00:45:43 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:45:43 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! Message-ID: <199608010522.WAA04374@mail.pacifier.com> At 07:49 PM 7/31/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >The security guard Jewell is now confirmed to be the prime suspect. While >NBC News is reporting that no evidence _directly_ links him to the bombing, >the evidence against him is overwhelming: > >1. He is overweight. With the exception of The Unabomber, most perps in >cases like this are fat. Uh, just like that guy in Jurassic Park! ('Course, there's an explanation for this. "The butler did it" went out over 30 years ago. They're running out of butlers, and, well, many butlers were fat, so...) >2. They found a _shotgun_ in his cabin. No, no, Tim. The proper way to deliver this to a TV audience is, "They found an ARSENAL in his COMPOUND!" (see how much more exciting it is?!? BTW, how many wives does he have?) >3. He had an interest in guns. (Back issues of "Guns and Ammo" are bad >enough, but possession of even a single issue of "Combat Handguns" is >sufficient to convict in 39 of the 50 states.) Any copies of that SUBVERSIVE publication Shotgun News? >4. News sources are reporting that authorities who searched his apartment >and his cabin "came up empty," which surely implies that he planned this >crime with the help of others. And he had to have scoured it clean JUST BEFORE the authorities arrived! Yeah, that's the ticket! Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Thu Aug 1 00:48:05 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:48:05 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960801051356.0069c5f8@gonzo.wolfenet.com> >> Okay, so their boss is part of the law making process, subject to the checks >> and balances that exist between the three branches of US government. They >> are in a position to supply their boss with data and I am personally >> impressed with their grasp of some of that data (it sounds to me like they >> are telling their boss that hackers like the ones at Defcon are not the >> problem). It was interesting how the Agent made the point that the FBI was there to enforce laws, not make policy. Then his Boss's role in the law making process was brought up, the Agent said "but any of you can do the same thing, you all have a voice" etc etc. Then he refused to answer political questions based on the fact that he was there as a representative of the FBI, failing to see that his Boss is also a representative of the FBI when recommending legislation. (Again, I realize he was "under orders" not to discuss it, I wish he wouldn't try to justify it with obviously faulty logic.) > I think what they are really saying is that they would love to >bust most hackers, but since they can't they might as well use some of >them to catch the bigger fish. If they truly did believe in the laws they >are supposed to uphold they wouldn't associate with hackers (who commit >computer crimes) at all. A more cynical view is that they are there to protect some of the biggest institutions of "organized crime" (ie: Congress, At&t, Microsoft, etc) who are ripping people off on a daily basis from the other organizations who refuse to play by their rules. //cerridwyn// From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Thu Aug 1 01:16:27 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:16:27 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960801053838.006a2bb4@gonzo.wolfenet.com> >Most demands for ID and conformations with police involve the operation of >motor vehicles. I have never been "IDed" except at border crossings and >when I was operating motor vehicles. Clean and dressed up people are rarely >IDed on foot. Maybe you should mention some of the specific practices in >Seattle that disturb you. I was downtown Seattle at night time (early morning), walking around, minding my own business. Probably not actively maintaining public decorum, but certainly not doing anything unorderly. A cop approached me and asked what I was doing, I told him none of his business. He asked me for my ID, I said why, am I under arrest? He said no, but he needs to see my ID. I told him he has no right to ask me for my ID, especially when I've been doing nothing wrong, if I wanted to live in those conditions, I'd move to Iraq or China or something. I got out my handy pocket tape recorder, and asked him to state his name and repeat his request for the benefit of my lawyer who'd be contacting him. At this point the few other people on the street had sort of gathered a few yards away, and the cop decided he wasn't gonna win this one, so asked me to return to my home and left before I could respond. You are right, "Clean and dressed up people are rarely IDed [read harassed] on foot." I'm not concerned for the clean and dressed up people (with regards to police abuse), I'm concerned about the majority of people who aren't. (For the record, I'm generally clean, but *rarely* dressed up. =) ) >Or flying on a commercial flight. So far, prosecutions for "failure to >possess ID" have not succeeded. You *can* be prosecuted for failure to >identify yourself (which is *not* the same thing). The Philadelphia airport >was allegedly requiring *two* pieces of ID for flights. If they are talking >about two pieces of photo -- government-issued ID, I wonder where the 80% of >Americans without a Passport (x the 90% of Americans who are not government >employees) get the second piece of ID. [Is it a violation of something if >you Heil Hitler od Sieg Heil the airline clerk when they ask to see your ID. >It's not a threat, it's an expression of honor.] When I flew from Philadelphia about a year ago, they required one picture ID and one other ID, just like most stores when you want a check cashed. I still don't like it, but I have less of a problem presenting ID when I am seeking a service of some kind. It is unacceptable to be asked for ID when I am merely walking around a public street. From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 1 01:26:41 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:26:41 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" Message-ID: <199608010551.WAA05766@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:57 PM 7/31/96 -0700, Martin Minow wrote: >This question is also relevant to escrowed encryption: how to >prevent misuse of escrowed keys by file clerks and other people >who need access to the keys as part of their legitimate duties. >Since these keys will protect a very large amount of money (consider >the encryption keys used for interbank clearing) and since we >know from the Aldrich Ames case that $3,000,000 can buy a >high-ranking CIA employee, there are significant problems that >need to be addressed. I would suspect that a Baysian analysis >would indicate that the risk of holding (and losing) a key is >greater than the risk of not holding (and needing) a key. However, even that is a somewhat skewed analysis. Most of us realize that the kinds of advanced surveillance systems that are being promoted these days have nothing to do with crimes that are, statistically, the most common and feared among ordinary citizens. Will a wiretap ever solve a burglary? Rarely. Will a Clipper-type decrypt bring a rapist to justice? Fairly unlikely. How about a carjacking? A strong-arm robbery? An arson? Sure, it's always possible, but we know what's really going on. Governments are afraid that technology will not only replace the protections we've traditionally been told only came from government (and thus make them unnecessary), but also that technology will allow us to force those governments to shrink and possibly to disband. In other words, to a government-type most of the benefits of a Clipper system are to the government itself, certainly not to the person who owns the phone and not even to society as a whole. That's one reason, I suspect, why those secret talks given to various people to convince them to support Clipper "usually" work if the person is a government-type, but will almost never work to an unbiased private citizen. That's also why the lecture is secret: That way, the government can push two different stories without a contradiction being obvious to the rest of us. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From adamsc at io-online.com Thu Aug 1 01:27:18 1996 From: adamsc at io-online.com (Chris Adams) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:27:18 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! Message-ID: <199608010550.WAA19139@toad.com> On 31 Jul 96 22:40:46 -0800, tcmay at got.net wrote: >The security guard Jewell is now confirmed to be the prime suspect. While >NBC News is reporting that no evidence _directly_ links him to the bombing, >the evidence against him is overwhelming: > >1. He is overweight. With the exception of The Unabomber, most perps in >cases like this are fat. After all, who could *not* want to conform with crowd? Anyone who isn't obsessed with being thin must have something wrong with him. There ought to be a law against people like him! >2. They found a _shotgun_ in his cabin. Only a criminal would have a reason for that! After, what legitimate use could a citizen have with one? If he wants to hunt, he should use a rifle! >3. He had an interest in guns. (Back issues of "Guns and Ammo" are bad >enough, but possession of even a single issue of "Combat Handguns" is >sufficient to convict in 39 of the 50 states.) Particularly for a cop! Why would anyone in his position need *that*! >4. News sources are reporting that authorities who searched his apartment >and his cabin "came up empty," which surely implies that he planned this >crime with the help of others. We can take prime examples of this: The Whitehouse hiring dilemna - if they can't figure out who hired him, there must be someone in on the job! Maybe it's the dead guy. Maybe it's those evil Internet users... ___ Sorry about breaking your sarcasm-meter... ___ >(P.S. I, too, was convinced Jewell was the guy. But in recent hours it is >looking like a "rush to judgment" could be involved. There is strong >pressure to "solve the crime" by the close of the Olympics on Sunday.) I think we could track this to the replacement of literature and culture with TV - if everyone from T.J. Hooker to Agents Sculley and Mulder solve a mystery in 30 minutes, surely they can do it in real life, too. How much do you want to bet that if it is a frame and it is successful, they'll "find" a PGP encrypted file with plans and use it to promote GAK? # Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! # Automatically receive my resume or PGPKEY by sending email with a subject # of 'send PGPKEY' or 'send resume'. Capitalization counts so be careful! # Web site: http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htm From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 1 01:28:42 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:28:42 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960731151242.0087632c@panix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote: > You *can* be prosecuted for failure to > identify yourself Only if you were already under arrest. Arrestees have a duty to identify themselves when asked. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 1 01:32:51 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:32:51 +0800 Subject: Cracking RC4/40 for massive wiretapps Message-ID: <199608010603.XAA19276@toad.com> At 11:13 AM 7/30/96 -0700, frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) mused paranoidly: >I combine the above with Whit Diffie's observation that, while crypto users >are interested in the security of *each* message, organizations which >monitor communications want to read *every* message. A TLA interested in >monitoring communications would need to crack RC4-40 much faster than >1/week. When we discussed using FPGA machines to crack RC4/40 last year, someone calculated the cost of cracking a message at 8 cents if you're doing enough to amortize your machine, and Eric had designed a system that should be able to crack it in about 15 minutes for $25-50K. The two basic search approaches are to take a cyphertext and decrypt it trying many keys to see if you get a likely plaintext, or to take known plaintext and encrypt with many keys to see if you match the cyphertext. But those designs are for one-at-a-time cracks. An interesting question is whether you can speed up performance substantially by cracking multiple messages at once. For instance, if you've got known plaintext, such as a standard header format saying "FooVoice" or "BEGIN DSA-SIGNED..", you can try many keys and compare them with _many_ cyphertexts, which may not slow down the FPGA very much. Also, even for unknown-plaintext, since key scheduling is a relatively slow part of RC4/40, you can split the key-schedule and the block-encryption phases, feeding one keyschedule output to multiple decrypt-and-compare sessions in parallel. So the cost per victim of cracking many sessions may be much lower. >Now expensive specialized cracking equipment can certainly speed up the >process, but there may be a better way. If cryptanalysis of RC4 yields >techniques which make the process much easier, then it is the ideal cypher >to certify for export. >The paranoid conclusion is that there is a significant weakness in RC4. Just keeping the key length down to 40 bits on a fast cypher is a good start. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # # Dispel Authority! From rich at c2.org Thu Aug 1 01:35:19 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:35:19 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > The security guard Jewell is now confirmed to be the prime suspect. While > NBC News is reporting that no evidence _directly_ links him to the bombing, > the evidence against him is overwhelming: > > 1. He is overweight. With the exception of The Unabomber, most perps in > cases like this are fat. Au contraire: Let me have men about me that are fat; Sleek-headed men, and such as sleep o' nights: Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. [...] He reads much; He is a great observer, and he looks Quite through the deeds of men: he loves no plays, As thou dost, Antony: he hears no music: Seldom he smiles; and smiles in such a sort As if he mock'd himself, and scorn'd his spirit That could be mov'd to smile at anything. Which member of the Dream Team does this remind you of? > (P.S. I, too, was convinced Jewell was the guy. But in recent hours it is > looking like a "rush to judgment" could be involved. There is strong > pressure to "solve the crime" by the close of the Olympics on Sunday.) All I know is: 1. At least one person is dead, and lots more injured. 2. For nothing. Ferchrissakes, guys, take a step back and look at yourselves. You're playing the spin control game just as fast and furious as the "bad guys" (?). First the glee over how easy it was to find bomb-making instructions anywhere, then saying it was a provocation by the government, now it becomes a conspiracy against fat people who read gun magazines. -rich [blue-ribbon disclaimer: it's called sarcasm, son, SARCASM] censor the internet! http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/ boycott fadetoblack! http://www.fadetoblack.com/prquest.htm From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 1 01:36:25 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:36:25 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > When the local cops adjust my attitude with a billy club for dressing like > a hippie and lounging around in a public place I am a defender of your right to not be harrassed by legal-definition nuisances, not a fashion cop. I gave up on trying to clean up the unwashed masses, a long time ago. But if your definition of "lounging" includes (say) playing your boombox as loud as you want in the park - then mine includes making a buck by burning toxic waste. From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 1 01:52:38 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:52:38 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960731223430.006cdb98@pop.atl.mindspring.com> Message-ID: John Brothers, Which locality do you live in? I've got all this toxic waste that I've been collecting in return for receiving large sums of money, I'd like to get rid of it as cheply as possible. I thought I might just burn it in a good "true" libertarian neighborhood. You don't mind, do you? From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 02:11:26 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 17:11:26 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! Message-ID: At 5:53 AM 8/1/96, Rich Graves wrote: >Ferchrissakes, guys, take a step back and look at yourselves. You're playing >the spin control game just as fast and furious as the "bad guys" (?). First >the glee over how easy it was to find bomb-making instructions anywhere, >then saying it was a provocation by the government, now it becomes a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >conspiracy against fat people who read gun magazines. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Rich, maybe you're spending too much time amongst the Zundelsite Neo-Nazis. You no longer recognize humor even when it's pretty damned obvious. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From shamrock at netcom.com Thu Aug 1 02:50:11 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 17:50:11 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question Message-ID: At 11:12 7/31/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >Most demands for ID and conformations with police involve the operation of >motor vehicles. I have never been "IDed" except at border crossings and >when I was operating motor vehicles. Clean and dressed up people are rarely >IDed on foot. Maybe you should mention some of the specific practices in >Seattle that disturb you. I have been IDed numerous times for no other reason than walking on the sidewalk at a late hour in an area where most people use cars to go to the 7/11 down the block. Southern California is especially bad in this regard. A friend, who had the same problem, finally got a dog. After that the cops left her alone. Seems walking your dog is a legitimate reason to be out at night... -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From shamrock at netcom.com Thu Aug 1 02:53:11 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 17:53:11 +0800 Subject: Violation or Protection? [OLYMPICS] Message-ID: At 12:03 7/31/96, David Rosoff wrote: [...] >On the local news I saw footage of a couple schmoozing in the Olympic >(Centennial?) Park after its reopening. The voice-over said that all >bags are being searched, and the couple said that rather than be >alarmed or nervous, they "appreciated" it. > >I'm not quite sure what to think about this. I don't have enough >experience to form a well thought-out opinion. I'd like to hear some >of everyone's thoughts on this: Is this bag-searching a violation, >(which was my immediate reaction) or is it not, because you have to >already be going into the controlled area to get searched? You are confused because you wonder how it could be that the couple could appreciate having their bags searched, something you intuitively regard as a violation of their rights. The very simple answer is that, generally speaking, individuals enjoy to have their rights violated, provided that they are given a (often false) sense of security in return. Surveys from a few years ago showed that a majority of Americans would approve of warrantless house-to-house searches, including their own, to combat the use of narcotics. ObCrypto: The public will cheer the day that strong, non-escowed crypto is outlawed. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From shamrock at netcom.com Thu Aug 1 03:12:07 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:12:07 +0800 Subject: Smart cards "a giant leap backwards" - Canadian Privacy Commissioner Message-ID: At 11:12 7/31/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 02:23 PM 7/30/96 -0400, Richard Martin wrote: >>Very little that might be new or enlightening to the world; attendees >>of CFP '96 will remember [fuzzily, in my case] the closest thing to >>Bruce's counterpart in the states admitting that the USA doesn't actually >>have much of a counterpart to the privacy commissioner. > >Most Central European countries have both privacy commissioners and legal >requirements that everyone register their addresses with the police. I'll >do without the former if I can also avoid the latter. I remember a time when Privacy Commissioners were a new thing. Their primary purpose seemed to be to sanction government access to (and keeping of) large databases on the activities of the population. Their secondary purpose was to prevent the private sector competition from doing the same. Eliminating access to such data by the individual in the process. Things may have changed for the better, but I doubt it. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Thu Aug 1 04:55:07 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 19:55:07 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defc Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960801091751.006a9430@gonzo.wolfenet.com> > Since they were speakers, could they be part of the Spot The Fed contest? They said that every other time their comrades had come to defcon, they had tried to come incognito, and got caught every time. This time, they wore FBI t-shirts, and the only response was "Hey! Where'd ya get the T-Shirt?!?". They said "We hacked 'em from the FBI" and that was it, noone suspected... =) //cerridwyn// From gnu at toad.com Thu Aug 1 04:58:03 1996 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 19:58:03 +0800 Subject: NSA/ARPA/DISA joint research office Memo of Agreement Message-ID: <199608010857.BAA21140@toad.com> [I found this at the ARPA web site while looking up the programs there that are trying to deploy crypto in the Internet. You can read it as plain text, the HTML crud peters out after the first page. If you look at it on the web, they have reproduced the signatures from the signature page in a GIF file. -- John] MOA - Information Systems Security Research Joint Technology Office

Memorandum of Agreement
Between
The Advanced Research Projects Agency,
The Defense Information Systems Agency, and
The National Security Agency
Concerning
The Information Systems Security Reseach Joint Technology Office

Purpose

The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA), the Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA), and the National Security Agency (NSA) agree to the establishment of the Information System Security Research Joint Technology Office (ISSR-JTO) as a joint activity. The ISSR-JTO is being established to coordinate the information systems security research programs of ARPA and NSA. The ISSR-JTO will work to optimize use of the limited research funds available, and strengthen the responsiveness of the programs to DISA, expediting delivery of technologies that meet DISA's requirements to safeguard the confidentiality, integrity, authenticity, and availability of data in Department of Defense information systems, provide a robust first line of defense for defensive information warfare, and permit electronic commerce between the Department of Defense and its contractors.

Background

In recent years, exponential growth in government and private sector use of networked systems to produce and communicate information has given rise to a shared interest by NSA and ARPA in focusing government R&D on information systems security technologies. NSA and its primary network security customer, DISA, have become increasingly reliant upon commercial information technologies and services to build the Defense Information Infrastructure, and the inherent security of these technologies and services has become a vital concern. From ARPA'S perspective, it has become increasingly apparent that security is critical to the success of key ARPA information technology initiatives. ARPA's role in fostering the development of advanced information technologies now requires close attention to the security of these technologies.

NSA's security technology plan envisions maximum use of commercial technology for sensitive but unclassified applications, and, to the extent possible, for classified applications as well. A key element of this plan is the transfer of highly reliable government-developed technology and techniques to industry for integration into commercial off-the-shelf products, making quality-tested security components available not only to DoD but to the full spectrum of government and private sector users as well. ARPA is working with its contractor community to fully integrate security into next generation computing technologies being developed in all its programs, and working with the the research community to develop strategic relationships with industry so that industry will develop modular security technologies with the capability of exchanging appropriate elements to meet various levels of required security.

NSA and ARPA now share a strong interest in promoting the development and integration of security technology for advanced information systems applications. The challenge at hand is to guide the efforts of the two agencies in a way that optimizes use of the limited research funds available and maximizes support to DISA in building the Defense Information Infrastructure.

NSA acts as the U.S. Government's focal point for cryptography, telecommunications security, and information systems security for national security systems. It conducts, approves, or endorses research and development of techniques and equipment to secure national security systems. NSA reviews and approves all standards, techniques, systems, and equipment related to the security of national security systems. NSA's primary focus is to provide information systems security products, services, and standards in the near term to help its customers protect classified and national security-related sensitive but unclassified information. It develops and assesses new security technology in the areas of cryptography, technical security, and authentication technology; endorses cryptographic systems protecting national security information; develops infrastructure support technologies; evaluates and rates trusted computer and network products; and provides information security standards for DoD. Much of the work in these areas is conducted in a classified environment, and the balancing of national security and law enforcement equities has been a significant constraint.

ARPA's mission is to perform research and development that helps the Department of Defense to maintain U.S. technological superiority over potential adversaries. At the core of the ARPA mission is the goal to develop and demonstrate revolutionary technologies that will fundamentally enhance the capability of the military. ARPA's role in fostering the development of advanced computing and communications technologies for use by the DoD requires that long term solutions to increasing the security of these systems be developed. ARPA is interested in commercial or dual-use technology, and usually technology that provides revolutionary rather than evolutionary enhancements to capabilities. ARPA is working with industry and academia to develop technologies that will enable industry to provide system design methodologies and secure computer, operating system, and networking technologies. NSA and ARPA research interests have been converging in these areas, particularly with regard to protocol development involving key, token, and certificate exchanges and processes.

One of the key differences between ARPA's work and NSA's is that ARPA's is performed in unclassified environments, often in university settings. This enables ARPA to access talent and pursue research strategies normally closed to NSA due to security considerations. Another difference is that while NSA's research is generally built around developing and using specific cryptographic algorithms, ARPA's approach is to pursue solutions that are independent of algorithm used and allow for modularly replaceable cryptography. ARPA will, to the greatest extent possible, allow its contractor community to use cryptography developed at NSA, and needs solutions from NSA on an expedited basis so as not to hold up its research program.

DISA functions as the Department of Defense's information utility. Its requirements for information systems security extend beyond confidentiality to include protection of data from tampering or destruction and assurance that data exchanges are originated and received by valid participants. DISA is the first line of defense for information warfare, and needs quality technology for detecting and responding to network penetrations. The growing vulnerability of the Defense information Infrastructure to unauthorized access and use, demonstrated in the penetration of hundreds of DoD computer systems during 1994, makes delivery of enabling security technologies to DISA a matter of urgency.

The Information Systems Security Research Joint Technology Office

This MOA authorizes the ISSR-JTO as a joint undertaking of ARPA, DISA, and NSA. It will perform those functions jointly agreed to by these agencies. Each agency shall delegate to the ISSO-JTO such authority and responsibility as is necessary to carry out its agreed functions. Participation in the joint program does not relieve ARPA, DISA, or NSA of their respective individual charter responsibilities, or diminish their respective authorities.

A Joint Management Plan will be developed to provide a detailed definition of the focus, objectives, operation, and costs of the Joint Technology Office. The ISSR-JTO will be jointly staffed by ARPA, DISA, and NSA, with respective staffing levels to be agreed upon by the three parties. Employees assigned to the JTO will remain on the billets of their respective agency. Personnel support for employees assigned to the JTO will be provided by their home organization. The ISSR-JTO will be housed within both ARPA and NSA, except as agreed otherwise by the three parties. To the greatest extent possible, it will function as a virtual office, using electronic connectivity to minimize the need for constant physical co-location. Physical security support will be provided by the party responsible for the specific facilities occupied. Assignment of the ISSR-JTO Director, Deputy Director, and management of other office elements will be made by mutual agreement among the Directors of ARPA, DISA, and NSA upon recommendation of their staffs.

Functions

By mutual agreement of ARPA, DISA, and NSA, the ISSR-JTO will perform the following joint functions:
  1. Review and coordinate all Information System Security Research programs at ARPA and NSA to ensure that there is no unnecessary duplication, that the programs are technically sound, that they are focused on customer requirements where available, and that long term research is aimed at revolutionary increases in DoD security capabilities.
  2. Support ARPA and NSA in evaluating proposals and managing projects arising from their information systems security efforts, and maintain a channel for the exchange of technical expertise to support their information systems security research programs.
  3. Provide long range strategic planning for information systems security research. Provide concepts of future architectures which include security as an integral component and a road map for the products that need to be developed to fit the architectures, taking into account anticipated DoD information systems security research needs for command and control, intelligence, support functions, and electronic commerce. The long range security program will explore technologies which extend security research boundaries.
  4. Develop measures of the effectiveness of the information systems security research programs in reducing vulnerabilities.
  5. Work with DISA, other defense organizations, academic, and industrial organizations to take new information systems security research concepts and apply them to selected prototype systems and testbed projects.
  6. Encourage the U.S. industrial base to develop commercial products with built-in security to be used in DoD systems. Develop alliances with industry to raise the level of security in all U.S. systems. Bring together private sector leaders in information systems security research to advise the JTO and build consensus for the resulting programs.
  7. Identify areas for which standards need to be developed for information systems security.
  8. Facilitate the availability and use of NSA certified cryptography within information systems security research programs.
  9. Proactively provide a coherent, integrated joint vision of the program in internal and public communications.

Program Oversight and Revisions

The Director, ISSR-JTO, has a joint reporting responsibility to the Directors of ARPA, DISA, and NSA. The Director, ISSR-JTO, will conduct a formal Program Status Review for the Directors of ARPA, DISA, and NSA on an annual basis, and will submit mid-year progress reports between formal reviews. Specific reporting procedures and practices of the JTO to ARPA, DISA, and NSA will be detailed in the Joint Technology Management Plan. This MOA will be reviewed at least annually, and may be revised at any time, based on the mutual consent of ARPA, DISA, and NSA, to assure the effective execution of the joint initiative. Any of the parties may withdraw from participation in the MOA upon six months written notice. The MOA is effective 2 April, 1995.

Signatures of Dr. Gary L. Denman, Director ARPA; LtGen Albert J.
Edmonds, Director, DISA; VADM John M. McConnell, Director, NSA; Dr.
Anita K. Jones, Director, DDR&E; Emmett Paige, Jr., Assistant
Secretary of Defense for Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence


Return to Information Survivability Page
Direct comments concerning this WWW site to: Webmaster at ito.darpa.mil
From jsw at netscape.com Thu Aug 1 05:12:22 1996 From: jsw at netscape.com (Jeff Weinstein) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 20:12:22 +0800 Subject: The "Secure" version of Netscape for Linux is *NOT* In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960801033402.00fc1ab8@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <32007B4F.300@netscape.com> Alan Olsen wrote: > > I just installed the "secure" version of Netscape off of the "US Only" > download site. > > Seems that it is actualy the international version and not the 128 bit version. > > How many people have downloaded this version only to find that they > downloaded something that they could have downloaded faster from a mirror > site? How many people have had their downloads slowed down due to people > downloading insecure Linux versions from the US only site? > > I think I have a justifiable reason to be pissed. > > Another waste of my time... I just downloaded the tar file for linux, and it does contain the US version. What makes you think that you got the export version? --Jeff -- Jeff Weinstein - Electronic Munitions Specialist Netscape Communication Corporation jsw at netscape.com - http://home.netscape.com/people/jsw Any opinions expressed above are mine. From schryver at radiks.net Thu Aug 1 05:40:15 1996 From: schryver at radiks.net (Scott Schryvers) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 20:40:15 +0800 Subject: FPGAs and Heat (Re: Paranoid Musings) Message-ID: <199608010938.EAA02670@sr.radiks.net> >At 12:42 AM 7/31/96 -0700, David Wagner wrote: >>Those estimates assume that a single FPGA can break RC4 in hours. I think >>that is an extremely optimistic assumption, given the available public >>information. But perhaps NSA is orders of magnitude ahead of us in chip >>design (unlikely) or orders of magnitude ahead of us in RC4 cryptanalysis >>(and we're back to paranoid musings). > >>> If we assume a machine designed to break *every* message, NSA's response >>> makes more sense. > >I feel like I'm leaning over backwards to defend NSA's response, an >extremely uncomfortable position (and I could crack my skull when I fall) >:-). The most important issue is, what is NSA's state of the art. If we >accept their $1000/FPGA chip, then they are indeed at the bleeding edge, >and suffering from the associated low chip yields. If they are at the best >cost-performance point for 2-3 years ago or whenever they started approving >the export of RC4-40, then they are certainly subject to David Wagner's >performance limits. Sorry about mangling quotes. :( This was about a year and a half ago. I can't remember the name of it, but this chip fab industry mag was talking about how the NSA was obtaining out side help in fabricating what was at the time a type of ram that did processing off chip in parrallel. If the chip was basically routing the problem to different sectors and the same sectors of ram did their own processing on different parts of the same problem how many powers of processing time would this increase the same amount of acerage?* * NSA term for processing. Side note: Wired just recently talked about IRAM or Intelligent ram, and how it seems to be the future of high speed computation. PGP encrypted mail preferred. E-Mail me for my key. Scott J. Schryvers From schryver at radiks.net Thu Aug 1 06:19:20 1996 From: schryver at radiks.net (Scott Schryvers) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 21:19:20 +0800 Subject: New Clinton Administration Ping Policy Message-ID: <199608011028.FAA03370@sr.radiks.net> At 01:22 PM 7/31/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Press release: > >CLINTON ADMINISTRATION FACT SHEET: U.S. PING POLICY >(Industry, international cooperation urged) > The sad thing here is that I can't tell if this is a joke or not. :( PGP encrypted mail preferred. E-Mail me for my key. Scott J. Schryvers From daw at cs.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 1 06:51:02 1996 From: daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 21:51:02 +0800 Subject: Cracking RC4/40 for massive wiretapps In-Reply-To: <199608010603.XAA19276@toad.com> Message-ID: <4tq268$nsk@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> In article <199608010603.XAA19276 at toad.com>, Bill Stewart wrote: > When we discussed using FPGA machines to crack RC4/40 last year, > someone calculated the cost of cracking a message at 8 cents That was the keylength paper. I think their estimate is way off. But that's ok-- I do so like the ring of ``8-cent encryption'', even if I think the derivation is technically dubious :-) > is whether you can speed up performance substantially by cracking > multiple messages at once. For instance, if you've got known plaintext, > such as a standard header format saying "FooVoice" or "BEGIN DSA-SIGNED..", > you can try many keys and compare them with _many_ cyphertexts, Not with SSL. SSL uses a random 88-bit salt which is different for every session. This attack doesn't work. Fun to think about, though, eh? :-) [ Unsalted 40-bit RC4 is super-dangerous, and there are all sorts of nasty games one can play with it. That's why you should avoid it. ] > Also, even for > unknown-plaintext, since key scheduling is a relatively slow part of RC4/40, > you can split the key-schedule and the block-encryption phases, feeding > one keyschedule output to multiple decrypt-and-compare sessions in parallel. > So the cost per victim of cracking many sessions may be much lower. Same deal. Keep those ideas flowing-- one of 'em is bound to work. -- Dave Wagner From meredith at ecid.cig.mot.com Thu Aug 1 06:51:29 1996 From: meredith at ecid.cig.mot.com (Andrew Meredith) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 21:51:29 +0800 Subject: Security of Web registration of Lview Pro Message-ID: <32008FD6.9A5@ecid.cig.mot.com> Dear Sirs, I was happy to find that you have put up an SSL form through which one can register Lview Pro. I filled it in and pressed the button. My browser then warned me that although the form was sent to me securely, the data I was sending back was in the clear! I had a look at the page source for: https://commerce.mindspring.com/www.lview.com/iregform.htm and there is was:

^^^^ Therefore the only thing protected by this "Secure Form" is the original text of the form, rather than the credit card details. I know that: "If using an SSL Web browser such as Netscape or Microsoft Explorer, please click here to access a secure document." doesn't actually *say* that your customers card details are secure, but at first glance it sounded like it to me. Whatever others may think about the rights and wrongs of it, my personal policy is not to commit credit card details to open networks, unless under strong encryption. I look forward to your comments. Andy Meredith From gary at systemics.com Thu Aug 1 06:52:05 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 21:52:05 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <320090AF.4DAA423A@systemics.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > (P.S. I, too, was convinced Jewell was the guy. But in recent hours it is > looking like a "rush to judgment" could be involved. There is strong > pressure to "solve the crime" by the close of the Olympics on Sunday.) Yes, a public hanging would be a fine way to end the Olympics. After all, this is Georgia we're talking about ... Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From gary at systemics.com Thu Aug 1 07:07:54 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 22:07:54 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! In-Reply-To: <199608010522.WAA04374@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <3200924C.64880EEB@systemics.com> jim bell wrote: > > At 07:49 PM 7/31/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > >2. They found a _shotgun_ in his cabin. > > No, no, Tim. The proper way to deliver this to a TV audience is, "They > found an ARSENAL in his COMPOUND!" Alternatively, describe the shotgun as a 50 caliber cannon. Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com Thu Aug 1 07:34:17 1996 From: WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com (Deranged Mutant) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 22:34:17 +0800 Subject: Cracking RC4/40 for massive wiretapps Message-ID: <199608011151.HAA07754@unix.asb.com> Wait a minute: RC4 is an OFB cipher. The previous plaintext has no effect on the ciphertext. Hence, an attacker with shitloads of storage capacity can generate some initial output for each key and test each pre-stored key against ciphertext for possible hits. Using 'flaws' in the key schedule (esp. if the key is based on a password rather than a hash of a password) one could search for 'more likely keys' first. Rob --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. From wwoelbel at midwest.net Thu Aug 1 08:51:33 1996 From: wwoelbel at midwest.net (W.K. Woelbeling) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 23:51:33 +0800 Subject: crypto++ help Message-ID: <199608011226.HAA27596@cdale1.midwest.net> I recently downloaded the crypto++ class library and am having a bit of trouble getting things to happen. I have read the text on the source-filter-sink concept and was able to create a DES file encryptor. What I would like to do is use either blowfish or IDEA to encrypt a variable length data stream. Does anybody have experience with this library? A short code snippet or similar help would be appreciated. Bill Woelbeling wwoelbel at midwest.net From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 1 11:14:07 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:14:07 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:16 PM -0400 7/31/96, Tom Weinstein wrote: > The only thing they can revoke is their permission to provide it for > download over the internet. They can't revoke our permission to sell > it in stores or via snail mail. Which, of course, would kill your business. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 1 11:14:33 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:14:33 +0800 Subject: Micali's rights to lightweight certificates etc. Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:28:56 -0400 From: Silvio Micali To: cme at cybercash.com, d.adams at xopen.co.uk, frantz at netcom.com, hallam at w3.org, rodney at sabletech.com, rsalz at osf.org, silvio at sunspot.tiac.net, spki at c2.org Subject: Micali's rights to lightweight certificates etc. Sender: owner-spki at c2.org Precedence: bulk Dear Carl: Last April I was forwarded by Ron (Rivest) the following e-message addressed to you: "[Re: Micali's lightweight certificates with hash chains] The mechanism maybe patented, but who owns the patent? I am aware of claims by two european groups who have payment schemes using a combined s/key and signed cert technique Pghill" As I do not know the context of your conversation, it is hard for me to guess which technology's rights the above question refers to. There are (at least) two possible technologies the question refers to. Let me thus answer it in either case. I would appreciate if you could pass this information to people you feel may be interested in it. (I am trying to CC all the people CCed in the original message, but I am not sure that this reaches all the right people.) RIGHTS INFORMATION My efficient certificate revocation technology is itself based on my off-line digital signature technology. The efficient certificate certificate revocation technology has been invented by me alone. I have filed for patent protection, and the patent is currently pending with the U.S. Patent Office. The underlying off-line signature technology has been invented by Shimon Even, Oded Goldreich and me. The technology is protected by U.S. Patent No. 5,016,274. The rights to this technology are only with me. (The latter technology, among other things, covers the process of separating the signing process into two stages: a OFF-LINE one --that can be performed before knowing what the message to be signed is--- and an ON-LINE one --which is typically performed when one knows exactly what he/she wishes to sign. In the preferred embodiment, in the off-line step, the signer uses the secret key SK of a first, conventional secret-public key pair (SK,PK) to digitally sign the publick key, pk, of a second, restricted but very fast, signature scheme. In the on-line step, the signer uses the second secret key --i.e., the one associated with pk-- in order to sign the desired message. In particular, the second public key, pk, can be obtained by evaluating k times a given one-way hash function on input sk. After doing so, one can sign in an off-line step pk together with a certificate serial number (and other information). Then, in an on-line step, one can sign that a certificate is being valid for at at least i days --where i is between 1 and k-- by releasing the ith inverse of pk; that is, by releasing a value that, hashed i times, yields pk. You can thus see the connection between the two technologies.) Both technologies are available for licensing. If you or someone in your discussion group is aware of a company using either technology, I would appreciate if you could facilitate a contact between me and such a company, so that we can discuss possible licensing arrangements. The Efficient Certificate Revocation Paper is presented in MIT Technical MIT/LCS/TM-542, dated November 95. A better version appears in a March 1996 manuscript. Either version could be obtained from me, if more convenient. Off-Line Digital Signatures also appear in the Proceedings of Crypto 89. A better version can be found in The Journal of Cryptography (1996) 9; pp. 35-67. Any version is also obtainable from me, if more convenient. Hope this helps answering the above ``rights'' question. Thank you also in advance for forwarding the above information to whomever you believe may be interested in it. All the best, Silvio --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From editor at cdt.org Thu Aug 1 11:29:46 1996 From: editor at cdt.org (Bob Palacios) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:29:46 +0800 Subject: CDT Policy Post 2.29 - Administration, Congress Propose Sweeping Anti-TerrorismInitiatives Message-ID: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____ _____ _______ / ____| __ \__ __| ____ ___ ____ __ | | | | | | | | / __ \____ / (_)______ __ / __ \____ _____/ /_ | | | | | | | | / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / / / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/ | |____| |__| | | | / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ / / ____/ /_/ (__ ) /_ \_____|_____/ |_| /_/ \____/_/_/\___/\__, / /_/ \____/____/\__/ The Center for Democracy and Technology /____/ Volume 2, Number 29 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A briefing on public policy issues affecting civil liberties online ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CDT POLICY POST Volume 2, Number 29 August 1, 1996 CONTENTS: (1) Clinton Administration, Congress Propose Sweeping Anti-Terrorism Initiatives (2) How to Subscribe/Unsubscribe (3) About CDT, contacting us ** This document may be redistributed freely with this banner intact ** Excerpts may be re-posted with permission of ** This document looks best when viewed in COURIER font ** ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, CONGRESS PROPOSE SWEEPING ANTI-TERRORISM INITIATIVES In the wake of the recent bombing at the Olympics and the suspected terrorist involvement in the TWA crash, the Clinton Administration and members of Congress are proposing a set of sweeping counter-terrorism initiatives. If enacted into law, these proposals will dramatically increase law enforcement surveillance authority over the Internet and other advanced communications technologies. An outline of the Administration's proposal was circulated on Capitol Hill on Monday July 29. President Clinton has urged Congress to pass new counter-terrorism legislation before the Congressional recess at the end of this week. While several prominent Republican members of Congress, including House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA), have said publicly that Congress should not rush into any new counter-terrorism legislation, most observers believe there is a strong possibility that some or all of the Administration's proposal will be enacted before the August recess. The draft proposal contains several measures which were rejected by Congress as part of the previous counter-terrorism initiative proposed last year after the Oklahoma City bombing, as well as several new measures including as-yet unspecified changes to U.S. encryption policy and funding for the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA, a.k.a. Digital Telephony). CDT is concerned that the latest counter-terrorism efforts on Capitol Hill are occurring without appropriate deliberation. Major policy decisions expanding the surveillance powers of law enforcement should not be made without careful consideration of the necessity of such proposals and the relative benefit to society. In the coming days and weeks, CDT will work with Congressional leaders, privacy advocates, and the net.community to ensure that constitutional civil liberties and the openness of the Internet are protected as Congress considers counter-terrorism measures. ________________________________________________________________________ MAJOR POINTS OF THE COUNTER-TERRORISM PROPOSALS CIRCULATING ON THE HILL The administration's new counter-terrorism initiative and other amendments circulating this week in Congress contain numerous provisions, but four are of particular concern to the net.community: * New Threats to Encryption, Opposition to the Pro-CODE Bill * Funding for Digital Telephony Without Public Accountability * Amendment to Criminalize 'Bomb-Making' Information on the Internet * Expanded Authority for Multi-Point, "Roving" Wiretaps The full text of the Administration's proposal and background information are available at CDT's counter-terrorism Web Page: http://www.cdt.org/policy/terrorism/ -------------------------------------------------------- I. NEW THREATS TO ENCRYPTION, OPPOSITION TO THE PRO-CODE BILL The Administration's outline contains the following statement on encryption: "* Encryption -- We will seek legislation to strengthen our ability to prevent terrorists from coming into the possession of the technology to encrypt their communications and data so that they are beyond the reach of law enforcement. We oppose legislation that would eliminate current export barriers and encouraging the proliferation of encryption which blocks appropriate access to protect public safety and the national security." While no specific legislative language has yet been proposed, this represents the first statement by the Administration that they will seek legislation to further restrict encryption. Even more troubling, the Administration is clearly attempting to use the recent suspected terrorist incidents to push for a new and more restrictive encryption policy. This new proposal comes as Congress is finally beginning to seriously consider major changes in U.S. encryption policy. Bipartisan legislation in both the House and Senate to relax encryption export controls is gaining momentum. The Senate Commerce Committee has held 3 hearings in the last 6 weeks, and is preparing to vote to send the Burns/Leahy "Pro-CODE" bill (S. 1726) to the floor of the Senate. The Administration's attempt to leverage the public's concern about terrorism to block passage of the Pro-CODE bill is disturbing, and poses a significant threat to privacy and security on the Internet. CDT is working with members of Congress, privacy advocates, and the communications and computer industries to oppose any attempt by the Administration to impose new restrictions on encryption, and we continue to work to move the bipartisan export relief legislation through Congress. -------------------------------------------------------- II. FUNDING FOR DIGITAL TELEPHONY WITHOUT PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY The Administration is also seeking to override the public accountability provisions of the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA - a.k.a. 'Digital Telephony') by providing a funding for the law in a way that prevents public oversight of the FBI's surveillance ability. Enacted in October of 1994, granted law enforcement new authority to influence the design of telecommunications networks (the Internet, Commercial online services, and BBS's were exempted) in order to preserve their ability to conduct court authorized electronic surveillance. Congress balanced this new authority with a number of mechanisms to ensure public accountability over law enforcement surveillance ability. While complicated, the public accountability mechanisms are designed to work as follows: * Law enforcement provides telecommunications carriers, the Congress, and the public with notice of its surveillance capacity needs (i.e., the number of simultaneous wiretaps in a given geographic location) with an opportunity for public comment. * Based on an assessment of the reasonableness of the law enforcement surveillance capacity request, Congress appropriates money to cover the cost of modifications. If Congress does not believe law enforcement has adequately justified its request, money will not be appropriated. * Telecommunications carriers are not obligated to comply with the statute or make any capacity modifications without government reimbursement. In October 1995, the FBI published its first notice of surveillance capacity (see CDT Policy Post Vol. 1, No. 26). The telecommunications industry and privacy advocates used the public accountability provisions of CALEA to respond to the FBI's request and argued that the FBI had not adequately justified the extensive surveillance capability contained in the request. As a result, Congress has not yet appropriated funds and no modifications have been made. The FBI clearly believes that the public accountability provisions of CALEA are working **too well**, and appears to be using the recent focus on terrorism to push for a new funding mechanism which does not contain public oversight. CDT is fighting hard to ensure that the public accountability provisions of CALEA, which have until now prevented the FBI from acquiring unnecessary surveillance capacity, remain a part of the law, and will vigorously oppose any effort by the FBI and the Clinton Administration to remove the last opportunity for public oversight over law enforcement power. -------------------------------------------------------- III. THE AVAILABILITY OF 'BOMB-MAKING' INFORMATION ON THE INTERNET Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) has reintroduced an amendment to make it illegal to disseminate information on how to construct explosives knowing that the information will be used in furtherance of a federal crime. The amendment was adopted by the Senate earlier this month as part of a Department of Defense Appropriations bill. CDT believes that the vague provisions of the Feinstein amendment could have a chilling effect on online speech, needlessly duplicate existing criminal statutes, and should be removed. Feinstein first proposed the amendment as part of the 1995 counter-terrorism bill. The initial Feinstein amendment was extremely broad and would have resulted in a flat ban on certain constitutionally protected speech online. After civil liberties advocates objected, Feinstein narrowed her amendment substantially, although it was ultimately dropped from the final terrorism bill signed in April 1996. -------------------------------------------------------- IV. EXPANDED WIRETAP AUTHORITY The Administration's proposal would also significantly expand current wiretapping authority to allow multi-point (or "roving") wiretaps. This would dramatically change surveillance authority to include wiretaps of INDIVIDUALS instead of LOCATIONS. This proposal would do away with the delicate balance between privacy and law enforcement that Congress has struck over 30 years of wiretapping legislation. Federal law has always required that wiretaps issue for a specific location, to meet Fourth Amendment requirements. In 1986 Congress introduced a narrow exception to this rule, only for cases where it could be shown that the target was intentionally evading wiretaps by changing facilities. The Administration proposal would completely remove this standard, allowing so-called "roving taps" for any persons whose behavior makes wiretapping difficult for law enforcement. The administration proposed similar provisions in the spring of 1995 in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. These provisions proved controversial in Congress and were dropped from the final bill. ________________________________________________________________________ FOR MORE INFORMATION For more information on the counter-terrorism proposals and their impact on the Internet check out: CDT's Counter-Terrorism Page: http://www.cdt.org/policy/terrorism/ CDT's Encryption Policy Page: http://www.cdt.org/crypto/ CDT's Digital Telephony Page: http://www.cdt.org/digtel.html Encryption Policy Resource Page: http://www.crypto.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ (4) SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION Be sure you are up to date on the latest public policy issues affecting civil liberties online and how they will affect you! Subscribe to the CDT Policy Post news distribution list. CDT Policy Posts, the regular news publication of the Center For Democracy and Technology, are received by nearly 10,000 Internet users, industry leaders, policy makers and activists, and have become the leading source for information about critical free speech and privacy issues affecting the Internet and other interactive communications media. To subscribe to CDT's Policy Post list, send mail to policy-posts-request at cdt.org with a subject: subscribe policy-posts If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, send mail to the above address with a subject of: unsubscribe policy-posts ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (5) ABOUT THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY/CONTACTING US The Center for Democracy and Technology is a non-profit public interest organization based in Washington, DC. The Center's mission is to develop and advocate public policies that advance democratic values and constitutional civil liberties in new computer and communications technologies. Contacting us: General information: info at cdt.org World Wide Web: URL:http://www.cdt.org/ FTP URL:ftp://ftp.cdt.org/pub/cdt/ Snail Mail: The Center for Democracy and Technology 1634 Eye Street NW * Suite 1100 * Washington, DC 20006 (v) +1.202.637.9800 * (f) +1.202.637.0968 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- End Policy Post 2.29 8/1/96 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From hfinney at shell.portal.com Thu Aug 1 11:34:02 1996 From: hfinney at shell.portal.com (Hal) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:34:02 +0800 Subject: Cracking RC4/40 for massive wiretapps In-Reply-To: <199608011151.HAA07754@unix.asb.com> Message-ID: <199608011445.HAA06675@jobe.shell.portal.com> RC4 is a stream cypher, so it produces a random stream which is XOR'd with the plaintext to produce the cyphertext (and vice versa). With the old SSL there were spots of known plaintext, but I don't know if that is the case now. If you do have some, then you can recover the output of the cypher. 5 bytes (40 bits) of output should generally determine the key. So you could build a massive lookup table indexed by the output which produces the key. This would have 2^40 entries (indexed by output values) each of which was 5 bytes long (key values). This would take approximately 5K gigabyte disks plus some PC's to attach them to. Total cost, one to a few million dollars, perhaps a bit less if you get them wholesale! (The task of constructing the table is left as an exercise for the reader.) Then given that you know output you can quickly find the key. No search is involved, you just go to the PC which holds the range of output values you are interested in, and do a single disk access. Note that the known plaintext doesn't have to be contiguous, any five bytes will do. With fewer known bytes you can do a similar thing but have a list of possible keys which can generate that set of output bytes. Hal From cts at deltanet.com Thu Aug 1 12:01:16 1996 From: cts at deltanet.com (Kevin Stephenson) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 03:01:16 +0800 Subject: VISA Travel Money In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960801045505.00695c6c@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: <3200CBB7.74DE@deltanet.com> Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: > > >> It's not as anonymous as cash, but it might draw a lot less > >> attention in my circumstances. I think it has a place in one's > >> aresenal of privacy enchancing technologies. > > > > This card has the value "written" when you "purchase" it right? > > > > Any one wanna bet on how long it will take the "Hacker" Community > >to figure out how to "refill" it? Otherwise all you have is a > >debit card. > > Interesting related story about DefCon: for those of you who have been > to Las Vegas, you know that many casinos have mag stripe cards that are > issued for a variety of reasons, that are just as good as cash in the > casino, but can't be used anywhere else. Many use them as a sort of > debit card for slot machines. The story goes that a few DefCon attendies > acquired a few of these cards from the Tropicana, and re-wrote the stripe > to read that they had over 60,000 "points". I guess they discovered that > the card was re-written each time it was used. Unfortunately for them, > what they didn't discover was that the system also kept track on a > computer somewhere, and the large difference between the computer's tally > and the card's value set off numerous red flags, they found out relatively > quickly when two Casino Security guards escorted them to the police station. > Oops. I can't help but wonder what would've happened if they only made > the difference like 10 points instead of 60K? These two people were not > too bright, as they were staying at the Tropicana, and probably had all > the equipment in their rooms. If they were of age, I believe (depending > on what they found in the room) they can each get multiple 15 year federal > sentences. > > Moral of the Story: Mag Stripe cards are never secure by themselves (the > credit card companies mistakenly relied on security by obscurity and are > feeling the painful effects still today), but have the potential to be secure > if backed up by that kind of system. However, it would only really be > practical > in a closed environment like a Casino. > > Thus, for the sake of all the lovely banks I know and love, I hope they > either A. choose something other than mag. stripes, or B. use them only as > debit cards that are checked against a bank account when used. > > //cerridwyn// Those cards are not debit cards. They are used to track a players time and money spent playing slots and other games. I have a stack of them. Whenever I go to the blackjack tables, I give mine to the pit boss and he writes down the amount of money I am gambling with and time spent at the table. The only thing the cards are used for is "comps". I get a free prime rib dinner after playing for "x" amount of points. I think the case will either get thrown out of court, or the casino will drop charges. Since the points have no monetary value, the fraud charge probably will not stick (if that is what they were charged with). The two hackers will probably get a call from "Guido" reminding them never to step foot back in Vegas. From rpowell at algorithmics.com Thu Aug 1 12:12:47 1996 From: rpowell at algorithmics.com (Robin Powell) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 03:12:47 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96Aug1.115045edt.20493@janus.algorithmics.com> >>>>> In article , tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: > At 6:28 AM 7/31/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >> I am a strong libertarian. Sell crack cocaine, rent your pussy to horny >> middle-aged businessmen, do any non-violent, >> non-damaging-to-others-property you want, but damn well maintain public >> order and decorum. Or I will scream to my councilman for the cops to >> adjust your attitude with their billy club. Someone please, please, please tell me this guy was being facetious. Please? Even if it's not true? Pretty Please??? In a libertarian society, so-called "public decorum" is dictated by who owns the property you are sitting on. If my building code (i.e. the code of laws set by the person who owns the building I live in) says I can blast my boombox, your opinion can go to hell: find another place to live if you don't like it. Or petition the person who owns the place. Burning toxic waste is intrisically damaging to other people, blasting your boombox is not (unless it is so loud as to actually cause ear damage to bystanders, but given the volume of music tolerated at rock concerts, I find this highly unlikely). -Robin From rpowell at algorithmics.com Thu Aug 1 12:19:07 1996 From: rpowell at algorithmics.com (Robin Powell) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 03:19:07 +0800 Subject: "An who shall guard the guardians?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96Aug1.113051edt.20490@janus.algorithmics.com> >>>>> In article , dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) writes: > Duncan Frissell writes: >> At 02:46 AM 8/1/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >> > >> >The Latin maxim "And who shall guard the guardians?" has some relevance to >> >the headlong rush into converting the U.S. into even more of a security >> >state than it is now. >> >> Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? > Who custodiates the custodians? Is this not slightly better translated as "who watches the watchers?"? This is the way I have heard it stated, and it is _WAY_ too long since I have studied Latin. One of my great dissapointments is that, despite having spent my entire school career (less university: I'm only 20) in private schools, I couldn't take latin or greek except one year of latin, after which the course was dropped. Sigh. -Robin, who really wanted a classical eduation. From hua at chromatic.com Thu Aug 1 12:23:54 1996 From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 03:23:54 +0800 Subject: algorithms for verifying U.S. IP address ... Message-ID: <199608011606.JAA23574@ohio.chromatic.com> How does one verify that an IP address is coming from a U.S. site? How do most FTP site (e.g. those which carry crypto) determine the origins of a connection? It seems to me that if the NSA/DoS is serious about keeping crypto strong for U.S. internal use, then they would help establish a method for U.S.-only interchange of this sort of software. It is clear, however, that they do NOT have an interest in helping with this identification effort as it will thwart their own efforts at tapping U.S. (er ... oh gee ... they're NOT suppose to do that, right? okay, they must not be doing it then ...) Ern From bdavis at thepoint.net Thu Aug 1 12:54:56 1996 From: bdavis at thepoint.net (Brian Davis) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 03:54:56 +0800 Subject: Photo IDs (Re: A Libertine Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ... > > And just what is a "true name" for the purposes of this law, anyway? Birth > name? And what is that? What about people who marry, change names, etc.? > Given that there is no "standard" for photo I.D.s, will my Official > Cypherpunks Card count? > > I can easily make my own photo I.D.s, or even order "fake I.D.s" from > various mail-order outlets advertising in the Usual Places. If I show up at > the airline with two photo I.D.s, one showing me to be "Security Officer > Mickey Mouse" and the other showing me to be "Mickey Mouse, Internal > Security Agency," will I be violating any laws? > > --Mickey Mouse (I just changed my name--if you don't like it, FAA, fuck off) Uh oh. The hell with the FAA. What about the Disney people? Michael Eisner may sent Goofy to lean on you! EBD No longer a federal prosecutor! From frissell at panix.com Thu Aug 1 12:59:33 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 03:59:33 +0800 Subject: Brain Tennis with Dorthy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960801155921.0085f7c0@panix.com> I'm following the Brain Tennis Match between Dorothy Denning and John Gilmore on encryption and the right to absolute privacy on Hot Wired (http://www.hotwired.com/braintennis/96/31/index0a.html). Were I a participant in this exercise, I would lob the following to Dorothy: I have to assume that Dorothy believes in absolute privacy (in some areas). I am assuming, for example, that she does not believe in torture as an interrogation technique. I assume, therefore, that she believes in absolute privacy in the individual brain. While she may support imprisonment (or the threat of imprisonment) as an interrogation technique (jailing for contempt), I think she would oppose bringing out the hot pokers. I have a wider point to make but please indulge me for a moment. The fact that many wiretapping advocates oppose torture raises a host of absolutely *fascinating* questions: 1) If it were technically possible to compel us (without pain) to disclose the contents of our mind, would Dorothy support the application of such techniques to suspects (under judicial warrants or other lawful authority)? That is, does the opposition to torture arise from squeamishness about pain or from some residual recognition of the right of personal autonomy. 2) Would those who support wiretapping but oppose torture waive their opposition to torture in certain cases. That is, if the continued existence of the United States or indeed Life on Earth were dependent on a bit of information stored in the brain of a single person, would those who countenance some invasions of privacy in the social interest allow torture in these (admittedly) rare cases? Back to the main thread: Dorothy, if you oppose torture then you have granted the validity of John's belief in absolute privacy. You are merely quibbling about where that zone of privacy ends. You might say that the zone of privacy ends at the brain but that is too narrow a range. Personal autonomy exists in the technical sense because only I command my thoughts. Only I can order my muscles to move. I can be chained and tortured and even hooked up to some sort of electrical apparatus to attempt to short circuit my muscular control and get my hand to jump but such coercion is pretty crude. If someone else wants me to dance a Waltz smoothly or write a paragraph of original material, they are going to need my cooperation (however secured). My zone of absolute privacy extends to those things I can directly control with my thoughts. This area also extends to communications. If I arrange things such that no one else can overhear me and whisper something to another person, then we both share knowledge that can only be secured by others through torture (and not always then) or through the decision of one of us to give it up. The same thought in two heads is still as much within the zone of privacy as that thought within one head. And so on multiplied by 1000. The zone of privacy arises from the inability of other people to directly command the mind of one person or a thousand persons. We have the control. Absent torture, you can't get it if we choose not to give it to you. Note that this zone already extends beyond the brain case. It travels down our nerves to the tips of our fingers and toes. We command those nerves and that wiring represents an extension of our brain. One of the things that we can do with those nerves is to use them to generate signals of various kinds. This signal generation is *also* an extension of our brain. It is under our control. If we like, we can arrange things so that no one else or only the intended recipient can know our thoughts. We have that power. We have used our zone of privacy to extend its scope. We have done (continue to do) it all from inside our brains. We have not left that sanctuary -- that fortress built by the rejection of torture by advanced societies. Therefore, if we develop the technical means to *extend* that zone of privacy beyond our heads, bodies, and those we can whisper to, you can only break the zone by the torture which you have already eschewed. The nature of the zone of privacy is not a grant from the State, it is the result of our nature as independent *actors* and our collective decision (in the West at least) to minimize the use of torture by governments. The Internet itself is an example of individual cooperation to extend communications channels from one person to many (it was built by its users). Those same users can, if they choose, use their autonomy to build in security features of their collective design. It belongs to them as their minds belong to them. It is an extension of those minds. Dorothy, you or I may not like the thoughts or communications of specific people but they have the same right to secure those thoughts and communications if they choose to. Now in reading all this, you may wonder what this has to do with key escrow and Gang of Seven (G7) crypto policy. Dorothy, as virtually the sole non-government employee who supports Clipper and SKE, I believe you to be unique in another way. I think that you can be "saved" from tyranny (which is always rough on the tyrants). Unlike the government employees on your side of the argument, you have generally not favored outlawing private use of strong crypto. We would like to separate you from them on this fundamental question of personal autonomy. The Century of Blood that the world has just lived through at the hands of its governments (160 million murdered) causes many of us to believe that some of your allies (who BTW currently include the Kingdom of the Saud and the People's Republic of China) would use torture and other very inhumane means to violate even our traditional zone of privacy. If you will merely grant to us the *morality* of our attempt to use the zone of privacy which you have granted to us to extend that zone of privacy, we will grant you an understanding of your fears of this new world (which many of us share). Please, separate yourself absolutely from the torturers. DCF From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 13:25:24 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 04:25:24 +0800 Subject: FPGAs and Heat (Re: Paranoid Musings) Message-ID: At 9:39 AM 8/1/96, Scott Schryvers wrote: >This was about a year and a half ago. >I can't remember the name of it, but this chip fab industry mag was >talking about how the NSA was obtaining out side help in fabricating what >was at the time a type of ram that did processing off chip in parrallel. This was a company in Bowie, Maryland, closely linked with the NSA and with the "supercomputer centers." The idea of "processing in memory" has been explored by various companies. By the way, on the subject of using FPGAs for computers, here's a URL I found that's interesting: http://www.io.com/~guccione/HW_list.html >Side note: Wired just recently talked about IRAM or Intelligent ram, and >how it seems to be the future of high speed computation. Side side note: I worked on Intel's "iRAM," standing for "intelligent RAM," in 1980-81. It found little market success. The idea of changing the architecture of RAM bubbles up every few years, but has not yet succeeded (except in some video-specific applications). Cautionary Note: Bubble memories, laser pantography, integrated injection logic, e-beam addressed memory, neural nets, Josephson junctions.... When you've watched the industry for enough years you'll learn to cast a jaundiced eye on pronouncements that a technology is the Next Big Thing. The above list--which covers only chips, not similar Next Big Things in software--is a list of some of the things "Wired" would've hyped, had it been published back then. Most such announcements come out public relations departments at major public labs, or from over-enthusiastic VCs. Or from claims made in papers presented at the International Solid State Circuits Conference and similar conferences. Reporters seeking stories then push the story. The usual form of the press release goes something like this: "The discovery of foobartronic switches may mean chips that are ten times faster and one hundred times denser. Researchers say the foobartronic revolution could reshape the entire industry..." Few of the advances reported in "Wired" will ever see the light of day.... Some will, of course, but it's useful to remember that most of it is hype. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 1 13:39:35 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 04:39:35 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <199608011621.JAA28782@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:13 PM 7/31/96 -0700, Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: >A more cynical view is that they are there to protect some of the biggest >institutions of "organized crime" (ie: Congress, At&t, Microsoft, etc) who >are ripping people off on a daily basis from the other organizations who >refuse to play by their rules. Speaking of AT+T, as I recall one of the incidents which preceded the introduction of Clipper was the news that AT+T was going to introduce an encrypted telephone using DES as the encryption algorithm. According to the story, AT+T was "bought off" by the US government. I haven't looked into that for a couple of years, but if we're looking for co-conspirators that would be a good place to start. Also: Clipper was fabbed by VLSI Technology. A few pointed inquiries might work wonders here. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 13:41:58 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 04:41:58 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: At 7:30 AM 8/1/96, Lucky Green wrote: >At 11:12 7/31/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >>Most Central European countries have both privacy commissioners and legal >>requirements that everyone register their addresses with the police. I'll >>do without the former if I can also avoid the latter. > >I remember a time when Privacy Commissioners were a new thing. Their >primary purpose seemed to be to sanction government access to (and keeping >of) large databases on the activities of the population. Their secondary >purpose was to prevent the private sector competition from doing the same. >Eliminating access to such data by the individual in the process. I'm with Duncan and Lucky on this one. Nations with a "Privacy Ombudsman" are almost always nations with extensive files on individuals, their habits, and their political activities. Having a "Privacy Ombudsman" is a bone thrown to the proles. I suspect a police state like Singapore has such a person. And related to the "photo I.D." discussion, most of these nations demand that passports be left at hotel desks when checking in. (At least they did when I spent 6 weeks travelling through Europe in 1983.) Perhaps the theory is that this stops people from running out on their bills, though credit cards do the same thing (*). However, the police reportedly inspect these passports and enter them into data bases to track movements. (* As the credit card companies increase their cooperation with law enforcement, a la the links between FinCEN and the Big Three credit reporters, the passports will no longer be necessary, and the process of tracking movements can be done just with the credit cards. Those without credit cards...well, they'll think of something.) Question (a la "Wired"): "When will the United States introduce an internal passport?" May: "2005, but they won't call it that." --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From sameer at c2.net Thu Aug 1 13:42:59 1996 From: sameer at c2.net (sameer) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 04:42:59 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software In-Reply-To: <31FFCD1E.3F54@netscape.com> Message-ID: <199608011714.KAA08903@clotho.c2.org> > The only thing they can revoke is their permission to provide it for > download over the internet. They can't revoke our permission to sell > it in stores or via snail mail. Where do you get this idea? Got an inside track into the minds of the supreme court? -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 Community ConneXion, Inc. FAX: 510-986-8777 The Internet Privacy Provider http://www.c2.net/ sameer at c2.net From frissell at panix.com Thu Aug 1 13:43:12 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 04:43:12 +0800 Subject: Welcome Back Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960801164920.0087e858@panix.com> At 11:51 AM 8/1/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: >Uh oh. The hell with the FAA. What about the Disney people? Michael >Eisner may sent Goofy to lean on you! > >EBD >No longer a federal prosecutor! Welcome back. I missed your posts. Do you have an honest job or are you still taking the King's Shilling? DCF From bdavis at thepoint.net Thu Aug 1 14:02:53 1996 From: bdavis at thepoint.net (Brian Davis) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:02:53 +0800 Subject: Welcome Back In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960801164920.0087e858@panix.com> Message-ID: > At 11:51 AM 8/1/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: > > >Uh oh. The hell with the FAA. What about the Disney people? Michael > >Eisner may sent Goofy to lean on you! > > > >EBD > >No longer a federal prosecutor! > > Welcome back. I missed your posts. Thanks. > > Do you have an honest job or are you still taking the King's Shilling? I have opened a law practice. Just this morning, I visited a client (in jail) charged with conspiracy to distribute cocaine ... in other words, one of the Four Horsemen. They checked me for weapons, etc., upon entry, but no one asked about any cryptographic munitions. Brian > > DCF > > From vinnie at webstuff.apple.com Thu Aug 1 14:08:07 1996 From: vinnie at webstuff.apple.com (Vinnie Moscaritolo) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:08:07 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question Message-ID: I think Bob Dole understands the needs for privacy rights for animals.. the following verbatim account of a segment of a Bob Dole appearance a week or so ago at a cotton cooperative in Bakersfield, California "My wife was here six days last week, and she'll be back next week, and she does an outstanding job. And when I'm elected, she will not be in charge of health care. Don't worry about it. Or in charge of anything else. (Muffled crowd gasp.) I didn't say that. It did sort of go through my mind. But she may have a little blood bank in the White House. But that's all right. We need it. It doesn't cost you anything. These days, it's not all you give at the White House - your blood. You have to give your file. I keep wondering if mine's down there. Or my dog. I got a dog named Leader. I'm not certain they've got a file on Leader. He's a schnauzer. I think he's been cleaned. We've had him checked by the vet but not by the FBI or the White House. He may be suspect, but in any event, we'll get into that later. Animal rights or something of that kind. But this is a very serious election." Vinnie Moscaritolo "Law - Samoan Style" http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A From ichudov at galaxy.galstar.com Thu Aug 1 14:16:30 1996 From: ichudov at galaxy.galstar.com (Igor Chudov) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:16:30 +0800 Subject: IPSEC for Linux Message-ID: <199608011800.NAA29524@galaxy.galstar.com> Hello, Is there an implementation of IPSEC for Linux? Thanks, - Igor. From hfinney at shell.portal.com Thu Aug 1 14:17:20 1996 From: hfinney at shell.portal.com (Hal) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:17:20 +0800 Subject: Cracking RC4/40 for massive wiretapps In-Reply-To: <199608011151.HAA07754@unix.asb.com> Message-ID: <199608011709.KAA17457@jobe.shell.portal.com> When I wrote my previous message about the use of lookup tables, I forgot about the use of salt, extra key bits which vary per message and are sent in the clear. That defeats the table lookup approach for searching for messages which were encrypted with a given key. There are really 128 key bits per message, with 40 of them kept secret. Hal From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 1 14:21:13 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:21:13 +0800 Subject: CDT Policy Post 2.29 - Administration, Congress Propose Sweeping Anti-Terrorism Initiatives Message-ID: <199608011743.KAA03854@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:03 AM 8/1/96 -0400, Bob Palacios wrote: > The Center for Democracy and Technology /____/ Volume 2, Number 29 > CDT POLICY POST Volume 2, Number 29 August 1, 1996 >I. NEW THREATS TO ENCRYPTION, OPPOSITION TO THE PRO-CODE BILL >The Administration's outline contains the following statement on encryption: > "* Encryption -- We will seek legislation to strengthen our ability to > prevent terrorists from coming into the possession of the technology > to encrypt their communications and data so that they are beyond the > reach of law enforcement. We oppose legislation that would eliminate > current export barriers and encouraging the proliferation of encryption > which blocks appropriate access to protect public safety and the > national security." > >While no specific legislative language has yet been proposed, this >represents the first statement by the Administration that they will seek >legislation to further restrict encryption. Even more troubling, the >Administration is clearly attempting to use the recent suspected terrorist >incidents to push for a new and more restrictive encryption policy. Even though it may be obvious to the crypto-savvy people in CP, since this press release is directed at a somewhat wider audience it would be useful to point out that none of these recent terrorist incidents involved encryption at all. >The Administration's attempt to leverage >the public's concern about terrorism to block passage of the Pro-CODE bill >is disturbing, and poses a significant threat to privacy and security on the >Internet. Same point. Unless you mention that encryption wasn't a factor at all, you risk leaving the (unsophisticated) reader with the implication that there was, indeed, some crypto angle to these incidents. Like it or not, that's the way public discourse seems to be done these days: Unless a point is specifically challenged, implicitly it is deemed ceded to the claimant. Sure, Clinton did not actually claim that encryption was a factor, but it was there by implication, and the average citizen seeing his proposals would come to that conclusion. Denying this specifically, you'd be "points ahead" and would be in a better position to shut down those trying to restrict encryption. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Thu Aug 1 14:24:49 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:24:49 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3200ED63.C96@vail.tivoli.com> Timothy C. May wrote: Tim wrote: > I'm with Duncan and Lucky on this one. Nations with a "Privacy Ombudsman" > are almost always nations with extensive files on individuals, their > habits, and their political activities. That reminds me: I thumbed through BiBi's terrorism book (the one D.S. certified as prerequisite reading for particpation in intelligent discussions about something-or-other) at B&N the other day. It's a pretty thin book. Most of it seems to be about the rise of the Moslem Menace and how the Sultan's hordes will soon be upon us all. The last chapter outlines all the "necessary measures" governments must take to stamp out the wildfire of terrorism. Same old same old, mostly, like allowing suspects to be held without charges, allowing warrantless searches (I think), thorough weapon registration, and so on. The last one (or next-to-last; I think the last one is "brainwash the populace into thinking this is all a good idea") is about establishing a periodic "civil liberties review panel". Yeah right. ______c_____________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 14:28:22 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:28:22 +0800 Subject: Blurring the Chains of Causation Message-ID: An unusual thread name, "Blurring the Chains of Causation." What I mean is this: - the U.S. legal system has been blurring, or confusing, the chain of cause-and-effect in crimes - Example: allowing suits by insurance companies and states against tobacco companies. A smoker gets cancer by his actions, and it used to be that this was his action, his responsibility. Now, we hold tobacco companies liable, and perhaps will someday hold executives of these companies criminally liable. (This for a product which is not illegal, mind you.) (There are a bunch of related examples. "Civil liability" is a major way this blurring is happening. Gun manufacturers being sued for crimes committed with their guns, ladder makers sued by the families of criminals who leaned ladders up against electrified fences, and so on. How long before a bookstore is sued for "allowing" a book to be bought by someone who later is "inspired" to commit a crime--actually, John Grisham ("The Firm") is involved in a lawsuit against Oliver Stone for his film, "Natural Born Killers," which Grisham claims "inspired" a murder. This has got to stop, in my opinion.) - "They made me do it" defenses. Hostess Twinkies are implicated in the brutal murder of San Francisco's mayor and a city councilman. Childhood abuse is exculpatory in other cases. Psychobabblers blather about what caused people to behave as they did. A mass murderer says pornography made him kill 25 women. A lawyer claims his client's son committed suicide after listening to heavy metal music. And so it goes. This blurring has links to cryptography, bomb-making instructions on the Net, availability of porn on the Net, and many other things. To cut to the chase: - a librarian who "allows" a person to check out "The Anarchist Cookbook" is *not* causing a crime, though much of the rhetoric one hears is otherwise. - the _author_ of that book (Powell, allegedly) is *also* not causing a crime. - the _publishers_ of that book (Lyle Stuart, as I recall--my copy is not handy) also have not committed any crime To make things clear, some of the language being proposed in the rush-to-law about anti-terrorism, wiretapping, anti-encryption, etc. As Sen. Feinstein puts it, "We hope we can wrap up the repeal of the Bill of Rights and have it on President Clinton's desk before the close of the Olympics on Sunday." :-( - if I _advocate_ strong crytography, avoidance of taxes, undermining of government power, crypto anarchy, etc., I have not committed any crime (Caveat: advocating the violent overthrow of the U.S. government apparently is a crime, as are certain forms of conspiracy, a la RICO, tax evasion, etc.) - if I _use_ strong cryptography, I have not committed any crime, ipso facto, nor am I necessarily conspiring to commit any crime And so on. Many of the proposed restrictions seek to further blur this chain of causation, by making someone who provides access to materials which _may_ later be used in a crime, or which may "inspire" someone to crime, a kind of criminal. The trend picked up steam with the "deep pockets" precedents in the 70s (*), was fed by the blame-passing psychobabble of the same decade, and has now reached its present state by a willingness of the courts to hear such cases. People who actually commit real crimes are the criminals, not those who sold them Hostess Twinkies without first checking their blood sugar level. Not those who let a library patron look at a "dangerous" book. And not those who provided strong cryptographic tools which _might_ be used by terrorists, pedophiles, and money launderers. --Tim May (* "deep pockets" -- If there are N parties in a lawsuit, and one of them shares only 5% of the (putative) blame but has 95% of the overall assets, go after the party with the "deepest pockets." This forced Cessna and Piper, the leading light aircraft firms at one time, to stop selling light aircraft. The example with Oliver Stone being sued is a clear case of this.) Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From usura at replay.com Thu Aug 1 14:50:07 1996 From: usura at replay.com (Alex de Joode) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:50:07 +0800 Subject: algorithms for verifying U.S. IP address ... Message-ID: <199608011712.TAA15658@basement.replay.com> Ernest Hua (hua at chromatic.com) wrote: : How does one verify that an IP address is coming from a U.S. site? : How do most FTP site (e.g. those which carry crypto) determine the : origins of a connection? What's the use ? It makes it only nominally more difficult to access an US crypto site, one needs first to esthablish an US beachhead ie. open an US account, and ftp the eleet crypto warez using the newly created US account as an intermediary. So the next step will be a tag that a user is an 'alien' ? bEST Regards, -- Alex de Joode | Replay IP Service & Web DZign -- The Netherlands usura at replay.com | http://www.replay.com mailto:info at replay.com From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Thu Aug 1 14:59:16 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 05:59:16 +0800 Subject: A funny thing happend to my data on the way to the bank Message-ID: <199608011745.KAA19325@jobe.shell.portal.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The Prime Minister's Social Security Number Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's US Social Security Number is 172-42-6111, according to the Boston Consulting Group in Massachusetts, which employed Netanyahu for about one-year during 1979-80.=20 The number indicated by the marketing firm contradicts information contained in a credit report by the US federally-regulated Transunion Company, pulled from company files during the first days of July. According to that report, Netanyahu and an American named John J. Sullivan both used Social Security number 020-36-4537. Questions were raised in the reports as to whether Netanyahu had attempted to create a false identity or had used a number which was not his. Publication of the credit report findings, and later reports indicating that Netanyahu's name had suddenly been deleted from Transunion's files, raised additional questions about possible computer break-ins into the company's records. Netanyahu aides have repeatedly claimed that the prime minister does not remember his number. In order to untangle Netanyahu from the issue, aides three weeks ago, asked US officials to provide his number. According to the Prime Minister's Office, that request has yet to be answered. (Jerusalem Post e-mail Edition..7/31.. heather at jpost.co.il). =20 From froomkin at law.miami.edu Thu Aug 1 15:15:31 1996 From: froomkin at law.miami.edu (Michael Froomkin) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:15:31 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] domain name server needed Message-ID: Does anyone have access to a DNS server that they can use to list a very small number of start of authority records for me for a minor experiment? [This message may have been dictated with Dragon Dictate 2.01. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions.] A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin at law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's hot here! And humid! From mpd at netcom.com Thu Aug 1 15:41:23 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:41:23 +0800 Subject: FPGAs and Heat (Re: Paranoid Musings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608011848.LAA11828@netcom13.netcom.com> Timothy C. May writes: > This was a company in Bowie, Maryland, closely linked with the NSA and with > the "supercomputer centers." The idea of "processing in memory" has been > explored by various companies. That's one of the things that killed Thinking Machines. It turned out that a standard supercomputer with PIM chips for memory could give the same performance for less money. The PIMs did the massively parallel computation with the standard architecture redistributing data as needed using high bandwidth scatter-gather operations and moves. At the time Thinking Machines went under, Seymour Cray had a big contract for Cray Computer to deliver a PIM Cray machine to the government, but he missed some deadlines, got cancelled, and his company went down the tubes as well. Too bad, it would have been a nice box. BTW, I gave up trying to predict innovations after being dragged down to see an early version of Visi-Calc running on an Apple, and horribly insulting the developers with comments like "But why would anyone want to emulate a ledger sheet?" and "I hope you guys didn't spend a lot of time on this." After repeating such performances at startups like Lotus and Infocom, I realized that predictive history was not one of my talents. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From m1tca00 at FRB.GOV Thu Aug 1 15:42:25 1996 From: m1tca00 at FRB.GOV (Thomas C. Allard) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:42:25 +0800 Subject: CDT Policy Post 2.29 - Administration, Congress Propose Sweeping Anti-Terrorism Initiatives In-Reply-To: <199608011743.KAA03854@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <3200FAEB.92A@frb.gov> jim bell wrote: > > At 10:03 AM 8/1/96 -0400, Bob Palacios wrote: > > > The Center for Democracy and Technology /____/ Volume 2, Number 29 > > CDT POLICY POST Volume 2, Number 29 August 1, 1996 > >I. NEW THREATS TO ENCRYPTION, OPPOSITION TO THE PRO-CODE BILL [...] > > Sure, Clinton did not actually claim that encryption was a factor, but it > was there by implication, and the average citizen seeing his proposals would > come to that conclusion. Denying this specifically, you'd be "points > ahead" and would be in a better position to shut down those trying to > restrict encryption. When Clinton closed Pennsylvania Avenue to vehicular traffic, he cited the private plane that crased on the South Lawn as one of the reasons for the tighter security. But closing the road north of the White House would surely not have kept an airplane at bay. If the Feinstein amendment passes (outlawing "bomb-making information"), will the Congressional Record be censored? Will Joe Biden be held accountable for making the material available? -- rgds-- TA (tallard at frb.gov) I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me. pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6 DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 15:47:28 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:47:28 +0800 Subject: Attempted balance... too far on the security side Message-ID: <01I7RK3PK2HG8Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Mixed messages, definitely. For one thing, people appear not to be realizing that even with terrorism, trains and airplanes are still safer per passenger mile than automobile. Driving people to drive more (no pun intended) isn't going to save any lives. Besides which, if I've got an emergency flight to catch, I may be willing to take the risk. Is there some reason that all flights must be held to the same security, so long as everyone getting on knows what level of security that is? Moreover, the suggestion of greater humint bears with it infiltration (and possible agent procacateurship of) any group that the government doesn't like. -Allen >America's dilemma: Balancing security and an open society > _(c) Copyright 1996 Nando.net_ > Associated Press > WASHINGTON -- after the bombing at the olympics and the loss of twa > flight 800, americans grappled sunday with how to maintain security in > a society that prizes individual liberty above all. > Travelers said they would accept longer delays for better baggage > checks and politicians reopened debate over thorny provisions cut from > an antiterrorism bill. But many weighed the desire for safety against > the pleasures of an open society. > "We must never accept as a fact of life that we will have to live with > terrorism," said Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick. "We must and > will come up with the tools to prevent these events." > But Gorelick conceded there may be a price. "Balancing the competing > interests in openness and security will be something that will be a > subject for all of us for many years to come," she told NBC's "Meet > the Press." [...] > Joyce Lee, catching a train home to Newark, Del., from Washington's > Union Station on Sunday, said she's "a little leery about travel these > days." > "You don't know when you're going to get it. A bomb could go off > anywhere, anytime," she said. "I would definitely be willing to go > through more security because safety and having to wait a few extra > minutes is worth it." > Security consultants predicted public pressure would force greater > restrictions in public places and increased scrutiny at airports. But > others noted that security was tight at the Olympics before the > bombing, and warned that adopting a police-state mentality would > represent defeat. > "I don't want to see the terrorists win by, in effect, revoking our > Constitution," Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., said on Fox's "News Sunday." > A terrorist can always move on to the next target. If airports are > sealed, will train stations be safe? How about movie theaters? > "Ultimately the question is, can you protect perfectly in public > places?" said Atlanta Mayor Bill Campbell. "And the answer is no." [...] > The antiterrorism bill that Clinton signed earlier this year applied > the death penalty to terrorism convictions and provided $1 billion for > law enforcement to fight terrorists. > But a provision to allow the FBI to wiretap all phones used by a > suspected terrorist was dropped and one requiring explosives > manufacturers to insert chemical tracers in their products was > weakened. > Gingrich said Sunday that he was willing to revisit those issues, but > that a proposal to allow police to conduct so-called "roving wiretaps" > was too great an intrusion of privacy. > "Our system is designed to go slowly, frankly, to protect freedoms," > he said on "Meet the Press." > Sen. Sam Nunn, D-Ga., said that despite the recent incidents, the Cold > War's end has produced a period of relative safety for the United > States. [...] > But he warned that unless steps were taken to block terrorists from > obtaining weapons-grade uranium or chemical weapons, Americans might > soon be longing for the days of the simple pipe bomb. > The key to fighting terrorism, he said, was increasing the United > States' ability to gather human intelligence -- information often > gathered covertly by infiltrating terrorist groups or spying on their > sponsors. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 15:51:35 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:51:35 +0800 Subject: Three on Clinton, one not crypto-related but positive Message-ID: <01I7RL42XWAO8Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> This first one is about as expected. I'm disappointed in Gingrich for being so conciliatory, and not pointing out (as the person from the ACLU did) that there's no evidence whatsoever that such expanded governmental powers would have done anything to stop the TWA (possible) bombing - and evidence that it would do nothing whatsoever to stop events like the Olympic bombing. >Clinton calls for expanded measures against terrorism > _(c) Copyright 1996 Nando.net_ > New York Times > NEW ORLEANS -- Spurred by the bombing at the Atlanta Olympics, > President Clinton Sunday called on Congress to pass expanded measures > against terrorism -- including new federal wiretapping authority -- > that were dropped from the anti-terrorism bill passed last spring. > Clinton called on the congressional leadership from both parties to > join him and the director of the FBI, Louis J. Freeh, at the White > House on Monday to discuss additional steps the government might take > to combat terrorism. Speaker Newt Gingrich expressed willingness to > consider such measures and said he believed some agreement could be > worked out. [...] > Clinton originally proposed such markers, and expanded authority to > let the FBI wiretap suspected terrorists or groups who are moving from > place to place, after the Oklahoma City bombing in April 1995, but the > measures were among those that fell out of the final bill. In an > unusual alliance, civil liberties groups and advocates of gun rights > joined forces to argue that the wiretapping expansion, in particular, > would violate constitutional rights of privacy and free association. [...] > Speaking Sunday morning on the NBC News program, "Meet the Press," > Gingrich said there was "a possibility" of reaching an agreement on > both issues, given the bombing in Atlanta and the suspicions that a > bomb may have brought down Trans World Airlines Flight 800. > He said that he thought Congress should "re-approach" the issue of > wiretapping, and that questions concerning the chemical markers were > "going to be negotiated." The Olympic bomb, he said, "shows you why > people are looking at that particular solution." > "I believe that the more there is terrorism, the more pressure we're > under to find systematic ways to solve it," said Gingrich, who had > opposed the proposals on chemical markers and wiretapping when the > administration made them. [...] > Clinton said the Group of 7 industrialized nations will meet on the > issue of terrorism in a few weeks. Announced at the summit of the > group in Lyons, France, last month, the meeting is intended to promote > international cooperation among police and intelligence agencies, > traditionally reluctant to share information, even among allies. [...] > In an interview Sunday, Schumer said that law-enforcement agencies > needed to be able to obtain telephone records of both incoming and > outgoing calls of suspects in international terrorism cases; to > monitor communications over digital networks, to keep up with > criminals who may activate a new cellular phone every few days, and > otherwise to stay abreast of the communications revolution. > Schumer said Gingrich was among those who "did everything they could > to weaken the bill" the first time it was passed. "Any time the NRA or > any of these far right groups sneezed, they jumped," he said. > Gingrich suggested Sunday that he favored an approach that would allow > monitoring of a suspect's calls across any number of telephones, but > said that should not mean that any phone that happened to be used by a > suspect could be monitored when other people were using it. > Ever since the TWA flight went down shortly after its departure from > John F. Kennedy Airport on July 17, FBI agents have been using the > attendant publicity to press the case for broader wiretapping > authority. The chief FBI officer on the scene of the disaster, James > Kallstrom, has repeated this plea. > But there continues to be some resistance to some of these ideas in > Congress. > "We're not prepared to extend wiretapping," said Sen. Arlen Specter, a > Pennsylvania Republican, in an interview on the CNN program Evans & > Novak on Saturday. "There was a judgment made in the Congress that > we're prepared to give up that bit of security for that bit of > freedom. And I think that's a wise judgment." > Laura W. Murphy, the director of the Washington office of the American > Civil Liberties Union, said the FBI was using terrorism to bolster its > arguments for techniques that it really wants to use in more typical > criminal cases. > "The idea that these roving wiretaps are going to lead to new > developments in our ability to fight terrorism is a big myth," she > said. > She said that only a minute fraction of wiretaps involve crimes of > terrorism, and that the new types of wiretaps the FBI seeks are more > invasive and more likely to track innocent parties than the old kinds. This one is the promised positive one on Clinton. > Centura > OLYMPIC IRAQI WEIGHTLIFTER WHO CARRIED FLAG DEFECTS TO UNITED STATES > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 The Associated Press > Ahmed said Iraqi officials had told the country's delegation to turn > their heads away from President Clinton while marching in the opening > ceremony because Clinton and former President Bush "wanted to destroy > Iraq." > "Everybody else in our group looked away from President Clinton. They > were not men. But I turned my head and looked at him and I could not > believe my eyes. He was standing and applauding for us," the Times > quoted Ahmed as saying. "I know that if the games were in Iraq, Saddam > Hussein would not clap for the U.S." And in this one, Clinton (like other politicians) gets angry at the thought that they might have to take some of that responsibility that they all keep talking about. (My suggestion is to remove sovreign immunity and allow wrongfully prosecuted persons to sue officials for their court and other costs. It would certainly decrease prosecutions to the absolute minimum.) -Allen > Avis > CLINTON'S TEMPER FLARES WHEN NEWS CONFERENCE STRAYS > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 Reuter Information Service > WASHINGTON (Aug 1, 1996 2:00 p.m. EDT) - President Clinton displayed a > fiery temper Thursday when at a news conference on the economy he was > asked about the White House travel office controversy and past drug > abuse by some staff members. [...] > "There are a lot of people who were never charged with anything, much > less offering to plead guilty to anything, who have been dragooned and > pulled up and had thousands and tens of thousands of dollars of legal > expenses, who were completely innocent, but have been subject to > abject harassment. > "Are we going to pay their legal expenses, too. Are we going to pay > the legal expenses of every person in America who is ever acquitted of > an offense?" Clinton asked heatedly. From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Thu Aug 1 15:52:29 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:52:29 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anyone who thinks I can say "conspiracy against fat people who read gun magazines" with a straight face, raise your hand. Sheesh. But there was a serious point in there, as there was in Tim's joke. -rich On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 5:53 AM 8/1/96, Rich Graves wrote: > > >Ferchrissakes, guys, take a step back and look at yourselves. You're playing > >the spin control game just as fast and furious as the "bad guys" (?). First > >the glee over how easy it was to find bomb-making instructions anywhere, > >then saying it was a provocation by the government, now it becomes a > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >conspiracy against fat people who read gun magazines. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Rich, maybe you're spending too much time amongst the Zundelsite Neo-Nazis. > You no longer recognize humor even when it's pretty damned obvious. > > > --Tim May > > Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! > We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 15:56:05 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:56:05 +0800 Subject: Again, disappointed in Gingrich Message-ID: <01I7RL8DXKCK8Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Again, I'm disappointed in Gingrich. This amplifies the earlier comments. -Allen >Clinton, congressional leaders to meet on terrorism > _(c) Copyright 1996 Nando.net_ > Associated Press [...] > Gingrich, interviewed on NBC's "Meet the Press," said, "I think that > we should have a provision that allows us to recognize that we now > live in the age of the cellular telephone and allows us to track an > individual person" He said the taggant requirement was "a > possibility." From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 15:56:21 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:56:21 +0800 Subject: Jim Bell, stay out of Georgia.... Message-ID: <01I7RJRMNIE88Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> They're arresting this guy because he had one mention of a Molotov Cocktail? Why am I reminded of the Haymarket trials? Where's a Governor Altgeld when you need him? Admittedly, this guy doesn't seem too bright... but if that were a reason to lock him up, the prisons would be even more crowded than they are now. -Allen >Anarchist charged with advocating government overthrow > _(c) Copyright 1996 Nando.net _ > New York Times > JONESBORO, Ga. -- An 18-year-old self-styled anarchist who allegedly > distributed a free, homemade pamphlet with anti-government rhetoric > has been charged with advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government. [...] > Clayton County police Lt. Larry Gibson said Moreland turned himself in > Sunday. Authorities obtained an arrest warrant for Moreland Saturday > after the pipe bombing at Centennial Olympic Park, although police say > they don't think he played any role in the crime. > "He told us he was only interested in destroying property, and I don't > think he fully understands the ramifications," Gibson said. "Whatever > he was up to, we wanted to nip it in the bud." > Moreland had been under investigation since July 8 when authorities > received a copy of a pamphlet called "Rise Above." Police traced the > pamphlets to a mail box service in a shopping center allegedly rented > in Moreland's name. > The pamphlet was laced with with anti-police cartoons, obscenities, > and anarchist slogans. The one overt reference to violence was an > illustration of a "Molotov cocktail" on the same sheet with a recipe > for "soy milk" made from water-soaked soybeans, sugar and vanilla and > strained through a T-shirt. From tomw at netscape.com Thu Aug 1 15:57:10 1996 From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:57:10 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software In-Reply-To: <199608010243.WAA28665@pdj2-ra.F-REMOTE.CWRU.Edu> Message-ID: <320101B9.500F@netscape.com> Peter D. Junger wrote: > > Tom Weinstein writes: > > : The only thing they can revoke is their permission to provide it for > : download over the internet. They can't revoke our permission to > : sell it in stores or via snail mail. > > Why can't they? What steps do you take to make sure that the people > you sell it to aren't--gasp--foreign persons? We only ship the domestic version to addresses inside the US. They State Department seems to think this is sufficient. Of course, a foreign person can always fly here and pick up a copy at Fry's, but that's not our problem. -- You should only break rules of style if you can | Tom Weinstein coherently explain what you gain by so doing. | tomw at netscape.com From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Thu Aug 1 16:01:33 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:01:33 +0800 Subject: [Editorial] Privacy commisioner right-Canada Message-ID: <9607018389.AA838936610@smtplink.alis.ca> Privacy commisioner right Editorial Ottawa Citizen, July 31 Bruce Phillips, the privacy commisioner, has again called for reinforcements to defend personal privacy against the assaults of commercialism and technology. It is a call that demands action-from the federal government, Parliament and every Canadian. The commisioner's annual report proposes two essential recommendations. First, the government should make the protection of privacy a condition of sale whenever a government enterprise is sold to the private sector. Second, the government and Parliament must pass a law extending the enforcement of privacy rights to private-sector businesses in federal jurisdiction. Phillips is right. As thousands of public servants are transferred out of government service, they lose the protection of the Privacy Act -- which covers only government departments and agencies. And as more personal information about all of us accumulates in the corporate sector, there is an intensified public interest in extending legal protections. ******* Phillips acknowledges the profitability of buying, selling and exploiting personal data on employees and customers. And he sees the power of new technologies to make privacy violations faster, cheaper, more comprehensive and always more intrusive. ******* But he insists that preserving personal privacy is both possible and necessary: "If we discard the notion of privacy and simply treat one another as data subjects, as objects of surveillance, we abandon that fundamental, democratic notion of autonomy and self-determination." Right Again. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 16:10:52 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:10:52 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: <01I7RKOB77H48Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Well, dry ice bombs are in the rec.pyrotechnics FAQ, stored among other places at: http://www.nectec.or.th/pub/mirrors/faq/pyrotechnics-faq and everyplace else all the news.answers FAQs are stored. What, precisely, is an acid bomb? Also note the standard blame-the-Internet (not, say, increased irritation with government after the Republicans failed to reduce it) rhetoric. -Allen > Cobb Group - Netscape > NUMBER OF LEGITIMATE BOMB THREATS HAVE INCREASED IN L.A. OVER 1995 > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 Los Angeles Daily News > LOS ANGELES (Aug 1, 1996 10:11 a.m. EDT) -- A bomb threat closed the > entire roadway network within the Los Angeles International Airport > for 45 minutes, creating a massive traffic tangle that came on top of > delays from heightened security. [...] > Police say the case is the latest in a rash of bomb threats and > suspicious package discoveries in Los Angeles borne of heightened > concern and publicity surrounding the recent bombing at the Olympics, > the mysterious crash of TWA Flight 800 and last year's Oklahoma City > bombing. > Each threat is taken seriously by law enforcement officials, who who > say they are responding to a greater number of calls -- and, in Los > Angeles County, finding a greater number of explosive devices. > A Sheriff's Department spokesman said 178 potentially explosive > devices have been found in the county out of a total of 273 calls > answered in the first six months of this year. > By contrast, only 86 such devices were found out of 259 calls in the > first half of 1995. [...] > "We're going to top 70 for the month -- that is a record in this > unit," Spencer said. "And the actual devices that really cause damage > has gone up." > Among devices found by sheriff's deputies: nine pipe bombs, 53 pieces > of military ordnance, 44 Molotov cocktails, 12 fireworks-pyrotechnic > devices, two acid bombs and five dry ice bombs. > In the city, the Los Angeles Police Department's bomb squad responded > to 972 calls in 1995 -- up from 717 in 1994. > Of those calls last year, 181 were for either fireworks, ordnance or > other potentially threatening items, police said. > The squad destroyed 73 devices and investigated 41 explosions -- many > in mailboxes -- that occurred over the year. Most calls, however, were > for suspicious packages that turned out to be harmless. > "We have had an excessive amount of bomb calls on the heels of the > pipe bombing in Atlanta," said Lt. Tony Alba, an LAPD spokesman. "They > have been running around like crazy ever since the Atlanta incident, a > lot of suspicious package calls." [...] > Also on Wednesday, 55 miles north of downtown Los Angeles in > Lancaster, the sheriff's bomb squad was summoned to the parking lot at > an Elks Lodge where deputies found a homemade device -- which included > half-sticks of dynamite and BBs. [...] > And Monday, an Ensenada, Mexico-bound Carnival cruise ship, filled > with 1,846 passengers, was forced to turn around and head back to port > after a bomb threat was made. No bomb was found. > "To some it is a power thing," said Sgt. Al Humphries of the Sheriff's > Department bomb squad. "With 20 cents and a mean spirit you can make a > cruise ship turn around, or make an airplane turn back." > Spencer and security experts agree media attention that focused on > bombs in the aftermath of the Centennial Olympic Park and TWA > explosions have factored into the flurry of threats and reported > suspicious packages. > William Daly, managing director at Kroll Associates, a New York-based > security firm, said the activity will diminish as the spotlight fades. > "If you look after the World Trade Center bombing, there was a > dramatic increase the next day, unfortunately tied to the attention on > the issue," Daly said. > "These people who are on the fringe, they enjoy seeing emergency > service, knowing that it is going to disrupt a city," he said. "This > is the way they live out their fantasy. The more they see it being > received and responded to, the more it will continue." [...] > Spencer said information about bomb-making on the Internet may be the > answer to the greater numbers of actual devices being made. > "This information is readily available on the Internet," he said. > "What we've noticed is that a lot of juveniles have gotten the > information off the Internet -- they admit it." > Alba said the most common devices found by the LAPD are pipe bombs and > dry ice bombs, often used to blow up mailboxes. > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 16:21:00 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:21:00 +0800 Subject: Jew Bits, Credentials, and the Cypherpunk Way Message-ID: At 5:12 PM 8/1/96, Alex de Joode wrote: >Ernest Hua (hua at chromatic.com) wrote: >: How does one verify that an IP address is coming from a U.S. site? >: How do most FTP site (e.g. those which carry crypto) determine the >: origins of a connection? > >What's the use ? It makes it only nominally more difficult to access >an US crypto site, one needs first to esthablish an US beachhead ie. >open an US account, and ftp the eleet crypto warez using the newly >created US account as an intermediary. > >So the next step will be a tag that a user is an 'alien' ? Along with the "Jew bit." (Credit goes to Hugh Daniel, as I recall, for this one. At the CFP in '95 he made up various badges with things like this, including "Is your Jew bit set?") On a serious note, the whole thrust of the CDA discussion raised this issue, of having "age bits" in all packets and/or credentials. There is the very real danger, I fear, that the current swirl of topics (terrorism, exports, G7 New World Order, pornography, bomb-making, etc.) will lead to moves for "credentials" of various sorts. (I'm sure the IETF folks can point out the problems with such schemes. I'm not sure they'd fly, but they may get proposed.) Such credentials--aka "the Internet Driver's License"--could have fields for name, true name, key, age, sex, and perhaps even things like special orders from courts (e.g., "Tim May is under court order in Idaho, U.S., not to have access to aptical foddering information"). Many countries, which do not have the nominal separation of church and state the U.S has, will want fields for religious affiliation, etc. We cannot fight this at the ballot box, as the trends are simply too strong (as Lucky notes, Americans will cheer when strong crypto is outlawed). The only way is the Cypherpunk Way: Direct Action Through Technology. Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Thu Aug 1 16:27:34 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:27:34 +0800 Subject: Terror attack! Message-ID: <32010AC5.1513@vail.tivoli.com> "I think I see one outside my window! Help!" A breaking story from Reuters: > FBI Chief Says U.S. Under Terrorist Attack > WASHINGTON (Reuter) - FBI Director Louis Freeh warned Congress Thursday > that the United States was under attack from foreigh terrorists and > said new counter-terrorism weapons were needed to fight back. Why don't they just be done with it and declare martial law? ______c_____________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 16:27:51 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:27:51 +0800 Subject: Republican convention security Message-ID: <01I7RLOILMNG8Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Why am I not reassured by what convention Chuck Vance participated in in the 1960's? And why do I suspect that the ADF calls a militia any group of people who have a political viewpoint different from theirs and might be armed (including via martial arts)? -Allen > Cobb Group - Netscape > SECURITY OUTSIDE THE CONVENTION HALLS IS FOCUS IN SAN DIEGO, CHICAGO > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 The Associated Press [...] > WASHINGTON (Aug 1, 1996 10:29 a.m. EDT) -- Beach parties, concerts and > fund-raisers will lure delegates from the air-conditioned halls of the > Republican and Democratic conventions next month, and officials say > keeping these off-site venues safe will be one of their biggest > challenges. [...] > Convention security used to focus on foiling a lone individual bent on > disrupting the meeting, but now groups like anti-government militias > are more of a worry, said Chuck Vance. The former Secret Service agent > helped coordinate security for the 1968 Democratic meeting in Chicago > that was punctuated by anti-war protests. [...] > Statistics give little reason for security planners to breath easy. > A recent study by the Anti-Defamation League said the number of > antigovernment militia groups in California jumped from two in 1994 to > 35 last year. > And in San Diego County, one to five actual or suspected pipe bomb > incidents are reported every week, and a total of 32 hand grenade > incidents were reported in the first four months of this year, the > sheriff's department said. Six pipe bombs have exploded already this > year; there were seven in all of 1995. None were targeted at > government buildings. > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 16:30:00 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:30:00 +0800 Subject: More evidence that democracy is bunk Message-ID: <01I7RLTJO3008Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> And some people think democracies secure civil liberties... -Allen >Poll finds most Americans want broader authority to probe terrorism > _(c) Copyright 1996 Nando.net_ > Associated Press > NEW YORK -- Americans overwhelmingly want the federal government to > have more authority to check out terrorist groups, according to a CBS > news poll released Tuesday. [...] > As an antidote, 80 percent believe the federal government should have > more power to investigate terrorists, but just 52 percent believe > wiretaps should be expanded. > Three out of five said they still favor giving the government more > power even if that meant groups unrelated to terrorism were > investigated, too. > Even if it cost more, nearly nine out of 10 people surveyed want more > security checkpoints, guards and metal detectors -- and they'd be > willing to wait longer in lines -- at public events. From nobody at REPLAY.COM Thu Aug 1 16:32:54 1996 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:32:54 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? Message-ID: <199608012016.WAA00739@basement.replay.com> Is security provided by 1024-bit PGP key sufficient against most powerful computers that are available today? Say if smoe organization spent 10 billions of dollars on a cracking machine, would it be possible to crack the keys in reasonable time? From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 16:33:41 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:33:41 +0800 Subject: (Un)Freeh makes claims on wiretapping Message-ID: <01I7RMDU1JC48Y4XOW@mbcl.rutgers.edu> The usual governmental rhetoric. Again, I'm not seeing achnowledgement from anyone except maybe the ACLU that there's no evidence that such tactics would have stopped the TWA bombing - not that they would be justified even if it would have. Legalized drugs, etcetera would free up quite enough law enforcement to take care of the problem. -Allen > Cobb Group - Netscape > FBI DIRECTOR: WIRETAP PROPOSALS WON'T THREATEN LIBERTIES > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 The Associated Press > WASHINGTON (Aug 1, 1996 1:41 p.m. EDT) -- FBI Director Louis Freeh > said today Americans are under increasing attack by terrorists and > proposed new wiretapping authority would not greatly expand > government's powers. > "The country and the American people have been experiencing an > increasing war against them by terrorists and terrorist-supported > activities," Freeh told a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing. > Americans "are clearly under attack and we are the prime targets for > this kind of terrorism." [...] > Freeh said the wiretap proposals do not involve "expansive powers" for > the government and would not lead to "an avalanche of new electronic > surveillance." > A leading GOP opponent of an earlier, more sweeping anti-terrorism > bill said today he didn't believe Congress could enact a new package > before its recess this weekend. > "I think it would be very difficult to do in light of the logistics > and the opposition," Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga., told reporters. "The > (anti-terrorism) funding is there. No new laws are needed." > Asked about Barr's comments, Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, head of a > bipartisan task force that has been negotiating with administration > officials on the anti-terrorism proposals, said, "That's part of the > obstacle. It's what we have to deal with. What we do has to reach the > level of consensus." > The negotiators, led by Craig and White House chief of staff Leon > Panetta, said they hoped to have a package ready for a vote by week's > end before Congress leaves for its August recess. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 16:39:04 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:39:04 +0800 Subject: Looks like they may actually pass something... hell. Message-ID: <01I7RLJW5WHK8Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> I had hoped that normal government incompetence would prevent them from passing something. Well, there's still hope that it'll get clogged up, or that the courts will toss it out - somehow I think they won't like the idea of taps without a court order, for instance (giving up a judicial prerogative). I am also somewhat puzzled by the racketeering law reference - I had thought that federal racketeering laws allowed civil forfeiture sans conviction (shudder)? The "funding" for telephone companies sounds suspiciously like funding Digital Telephony. -Allen > School House > WHITE HOUSE, KEY LAWMAKERS AGREE ON ANTI-TERRORISM PROPOSALS > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 The Associated Press > WASHINGTON (Aug 1, 1996 09:53 a.m. EDT) -- After wrangling with key > Republican lawmakers, the White House has won agreement on a package > of anti-terrorism measures that would expand wiretapping authority and > tighten airport security. [...] > But omitted from the agreement was a central part of Clinton's > proposals, a study of chemical markers in explosives, called taggants, > which had been heavily criticized by some Republicans. Also rejected > was a provision to allow the FBI to get information on suspected > terrorists from hotels, telephone companies and storage facilities. [...] The agreement also would allow prosecution of suspected terrorists under federal racketeering laws, which would make anyone convicted subject to asset forfeitures and longer sentences. > The negotiators, led by Panetta and Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, said > they hoped to have a package ready for a vote by week's end, before > Congress leaves for its August recess. > But Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., said earlier in the > day that final passage before the recess appeared unlikely. "I don't > see how in the world we can get it done" by then, Lott told reporters. > Lott and other GOP leaders summoned Attorney General Janet Reno, > Panetta and FBI Director Louis Freeh to a meeting today to explain why > some of the FBI's anti-terrorism funds haven't been spent. > "We are increasingly concerned that monies and authorities already > granted to the administration are not being used effectively or at > all," Lott, House Speaker Newt Gingrich, R-Ga., and House Majority > Leader Dick Armey, R-Texas, wrote in a letter to Clinton. > Justice Department spokesman Myron Marlin said the Republican > assertions were "misleading." > Gingrich and Lott also proposed that a blue-ribbon commission review > the government's anti-terrorism policy -- a move that would delay > congressional action. The new package includes such a commission for > longer-term legislative proposals, Craig said. > He said the lawmakers' aides planned to work through the night to > draft the proposals into a package that could be put to a vote before > week's end. > "I feel very positive at this moment," Craig told reporters Wednesday > night. > Craig said the proposals included multipoint wiretaps, which allow law > enforcement agents to monitor all phone calls made by a suspected > terrorist, rather than just those from a specific telephone, as well > as emergency wiretaps, which are valid for 48 hours without a court > order. [... yeah, right] > Craig stressed that the new wiretap provisions would include "some > privacy language that will protect people." > Other proposals on which accord was reached include the use of special > technology to make it easier to trace telephone numbers called by > suspected terrorists and a trust fund to reimburse phone companies for > expenses they incur in that area. > Craig listed the proposals but gave few details, which had yet to be > worked out. > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 16:43:56 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:43:56 +0800 Subject: A funny thing happend to my data on the way to the bank Message-ID: At 5:45 PM 8/1/96, anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: >The Prime Minister's Social Security Number >Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's US Social Security Number is >172-42-6111, according to the Boston Consulting Group in Massachusetts, >which employed Netanyahu for about one-year during 1979-80.=20 > >The number indicated by the marketing firm contradicts information contained >in a credit report by the US federally-regulated Transunion Company, pulled >from company files during the first days of July. According to that report, >Netanyahu and an American named John J. Sullivan both used Social Security >number 020-36-4537. > >Questions were raised in the reports as to whether Netanyahu had attempted >to create a false identity or had used a number which was not his. >Publication of the credit report findings, and later reports indicating >that Netanyahu's name had suddenly been deleted from Transunion's files, >raised additional questions about possible computer break-ins into the >company's records. It is not likely to be a "break-in." Rather, the Big Three credit reporting agencies, Transunion, TRW Credit, and Equifax, routinely are complicit in creating false credit histories as part of the "legends" of agents, persons in the Federal Witness Security Program, etc. (Do you not think Equifax would "notice" a new identity which popped into existence in 1995, complete with a 10-year credit history, a high school diploma, a record of past employment, etc.? There is a good reason these companies have close ties with the TLAs in the D.C. area...where, perhaps coincidentally, they have major offices.) My Cyphernomicon has more information about the roles the credit agencies have played in creating false identities and maintaining their cover, and the role of FinCEN and its ties to these nominally-private agencies. What this report about Net-n-Yahoo has confirmed is his almost certain role as an agent of the U.S. intelligence agencies. His role in the Pollard case is likely to come out in the next few months. (Look for legislation from Feinswine and others making it a felony to disclose Social Security numbers....) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 16:48:45 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:48:45 +0800 Subject: Progress on online stock markets Message-ID: <01I7RM6OZWJK8Y4XOW@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Anyone know how secure this company's web servers, etcetera are? -Allen > Avis > E-TRADE WANTS TO SELL IPOS OVER THE INTERNET > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 San Francisco Examiner > SAN FRANCISCO (Aug 1, 1996 00:05 a.m. EDT) -- E-Trade Securities Inc., > the Palo Alto, Calif., company that sells stocks over the Internet, > has asked the National Association of Securities Dealers for > permission to form an investment banking division to sell initial > public offerings over the Internet. > E-Trade executive vice president David Traversi said if the NASD > approves his request, the company would start bringing small firms > public and would also seek to co-underwrite big deals brought by large > investment banks. > Traversi said E-Trade's two-fold objective aimed to create a new way > to bring small companies public and give small investors a chance to > buy new stock issues that usually get bought by institutional > investors. [...] > Traversi said E-Trade would also try to get listed as a co-underwriter > for big IPOs, like last September's Netscape offering. In the past, > small investors have complained that such big deals are sold to > institutional investors, who rake in huge profits before small > investors get a crack at the offering. To offer such deals online, > however, E-Trade would have to get the approval of the lead > underwriter on each offering. > "Right now, without naming names, there are large investment firms > that have indicated an interest in having us as a co-manager" of their > IPOs, Traversi said. > But before E-Trade can do anything more, its pending application to > form an investment bank has to be approved by the NASD, which > regulates small securities dealers. Traversi said he expected NASD > approval this fall. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 1 16:58:36 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:58:36 +0800 Subject: CDT Message-ID: <01I7RM0CJM388Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- _____ _____ _______ / ____| __ \__ __| ____ ___ ____ __ | | | | | | | | / __ \____ / (_)______ __ / __ \____ _____/ /_ | | | | | | | | / /_/ / __ \/ / / ___/ / / / / /_/ / __ \/ ___/ __/ | |____| |__| | | | / ____/ /_/ / / / /__/ /_/ / / ____/ /_/ (__ ) /_ \_____|_____/ |_| /_/ \____/_/_/\___/\__, / /_/ \____/____/\__/ The Center for Democracy and Technology /____/ Volume 2, Number 29 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A briefing on public policy issues affecting civil liberties online ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CDT POLICY POST Volume 2, Number 29 August 1, 1996 CONTENTS: (1) Clinton Administration, Congress Propose Sweeping Anti-Terrorism Initiatives (2) How to Subscribe/Unsubscribe (3) About CDT, contacting us ** This document may be redistributed freely with this banner intact ** Excerpts may be re-posted with permission of ** This document looks best when viewed in COURIER font ** ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, CONGRESS PROPOSE SWEEPING ANTI-TERRORISM INITIATIVES In the wake of the recent bombing at the Olympics and the suspected terrorist involvement in the TWA crash, the Clinton Administration and members of Congress are proposing a set of sweeping counter-terrorism initiatives. If enacted into law, these proposals will dramatically increase law enforcement surveillance authority over the Internet and other advanced communications technologies. An outline of the Administration's proposal was circulated on Capitol Hill on Monday July 29. President Clinton has urged Congress to pass new counter-terrorism legislation before the Congressional recess at the end of this week. While several prominent Republican members of Congress, including House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA), have said publicly that Congress should not rush into any new counter-terrorism legislation, most observers believe there is a strong possibility that some or all of the Administration's proposal will be enacted before the August recess. The draft proposal contains several measures which were rejected by Congress as part of the previous counter-terrorism initiative proposed last year after the Oklahoma City bombing, as well as several new measures including as-yet unspecified changes to U.S. encryption policy and funding for the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA, a.k.a. Digital Telephony). CDT is concerned that the latest counter-terrorism efforts on Capitol Hill are occurring without appropriate deliberation. Major policy decisions expanding the surveillance powers of law enforcement should not be made without careful consideration of the necessity of such proposals and the relative benefit to society. In the coming days and weeks, CDT will work with Congressional leaders, privacy advocates, and the net.community to ensure that constitutional civil liberties and the openness of the Internet are protected as Congress considers counter-terrorism measures. ________________________________________________________________________ MAJOR POINTS OF THE COUNTER-TERRORISM PROPOSALS CIRCULATING ON THE HILL The administration's new counter-terrorism initiative and other amendments circulating this week in Congress contain numerous provisions, but four are of particular concern to the net.community: * New Threats to Encryption, Opposition to the Pro-CODE Bill * Funding for Digital Telephony Without Public Accountability * Amendment to Criminalize 'Bomb-Making' Information on the Internet * Expanded Authority for Multi-Point, "Roving" Wiretaps The full text of the Administration's proposal and background information are available at CDT's counter-terrorism Web Page: http://www.cdt.org/policy/terrorism/ -------------------------------------------------------- I. NEW THREATS TO ENCRYPTION, OPPOSITION TO THE PRO-CODE BILL The Administration's outline contains the following statement on encryption: "* Encryption -- We will seek legislation to strengthen our ability to prevent terrorists from coming into the possession of the technology to encrypt their communications and data so that they are beyond the reach of law enforcement. We oppose legislation that would eliminate current export barriers and encouraging the proliferation of encryption which blocks appropriate access to protect public safety and the national security." While no specific legislative language has yet been proposed, this represents the first statement by the Administration that they will seek legislation to further restrict encryption. Even more troubling, the Administration is clearly attempting to use the recent suspected terrorist incidents to push for a new and more restrictive encryption policy. This new proposal comes as Congress is finally beginning to seriously consider major changes in U.S. encryption policy. Bipartisan legislation in both the House and Senate to relax encryption export controls is gaining momentum. The Senate Commerce Committee has held 3 hearings in the last 6 weeks, and is preparing to vote to send the Burns/Leahy "Pro-CODE" bill (S. 1726) to the floor of the Senate. The Administration's attempt to leverage the public's concern about terrorism to block passage of the Pro-CODE bill is disturbing, and poses a significant threat to privacy and security on the Internet. CDT is working with members of Congress, privacy advocates, and the communications and computer industries to oppose any attempt by the Administration to impose new restrictions on encryption, and we continue to work to move the bipartisan export relief legislation through Congress. -------------------------------------------------------- II. FUNDING FOR DIGITAL TELEPHONY WITHOUT PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY The Administration is also seeking to override the public accountability provisions of the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA - a.k.a. 'Digital Telephony') by providing a funding for the law in a way that prevents public oversight of the FBI's surveillance ability. Enacted in October of 1994, granted law enforcement new authority to influence the design of telecommunications networks (the Internet, Commercial online services, and BBS's were exempted) in order to preserve their ability to conduct court authorized electronic surveillance. Congress balanced this new authority with a number of mechanisms to ensure public accountability over law enforcement surveillance ability. While complicated, the public accountability mechanisms are designed to work as follows: * Law enforcement provides telecommunications carriers, the Congress, and the public with notice of its surveillance capacity needs (i.e., the number of simultaneous wiretaps in a given geographic location) with an opportunity for public comment. * Based on an assessment of the reasonableness of the law enforcement surveillance capacity request, Congress appropriates money to cover the cost of modifications. If Congress does not believe law enforcement has adequately justified its request, money will not be appropriated. * Telecommunications carriers are not obligated to comply with the statute or make any capacity modifications without government reimbursement. In October 1995, the FBI published its first notice of surveillance capacity (see CDT Policy Post Vol. 1, No. 26). The telecommunications industry and privacy advocates used the public accountability provisions of CALEA to respond to the FBI's request and argued that the FBI had not adequately justified the extensive surveillance capability contained in the request. As a result, Congress has not yet appropriated funds and no modifications have been made. The FBI clearly believes that the public accountability provisions of CALEA are working **too well**, and appears to be using the recent focus on terrorism to push for a new funding mechanism which does not contain public oversight. CDT is fighting hard to ensure that the public accountability provisions of CALEA, which have until now prevented the FBI from acquiring unnecessary surveillance capacity, remain a part of the law, and will vigorously oppose any effort by the FBI and the Clinton Administration to remove the last opportunity for public oversight over law enforcement power. -------------------------------------------------------- III. THE AVAILABILITY OF 'BOMB-MAKING' INFORMATION ON THE INTERNET Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) has reintroduced an amendment to make it illegal to disseminate information on how to construct explosives knowing that the information will be used in furtherance of a federal crime. The amendment was adopted by the Senate earlier this month as part of a Department of Defense Appropriations bill. CDT believes that the vague provisions of the Feinstein amendment could have a chilling effect on online speech, needlessly duplicate existing criminal statutes, and should be removed. Feinstein first proposed the amendment as part of the 1995 counter-terrorism bill. The initial Feinstein amendment was extremely broad and would have resulted in a flat ban on certain constitutionally protected speech online. After civil liberties advocates objected, Feinstein narrowed her amendment substantially, although it was ultimately dropped from the final terrorism bill signed in April 1996. -------------------------------------------------------- IV. EXPANDED WIRETAP AUTHORITY The Administration's proposal would also significantly expand current wiretapping authority to allow multi-point (or "roving") wiretaps. This would dramatically change surveillance authority to include wiretaps of INDIVIDUALS instead of LOCATIONS. This proposal would do away with the delicate balance between privacy and law enforcement that Congress has struck over 30 years of wiretapping legislation. Federal law has always required that wiretaps issue for a specific location, to meet Fourth Amendment requirements. In 1986 Congress introduced a narrow exception to this rule, only for cases where it could be shown that the target was intentionally evading wiretaps by changing facilities. The Administration proposal would completely remove this standard, allowing so-called "roving taps" for any persons whose behavior makes wiretapping difficult for law enforcement. The administration proposed similar provisions in the spring of 1995 in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. These provisions proved controversial in Congress and were dropped from the final bill. ________________________________________________________________________ FOR MORE INFORMATION For more information on the counter-terrorism proposals and their impact on the Internet check out: CDT's Counter-Terrorism Page: http://www.cdt.org/policy/terrorism/ CDT's Encryption Policy Page: http://www.cdt.org/crypto/ CDT's Digital Telephony Page: http://www.cdt.org/digtel.html Encryption Policy Resource Page: http://www.crypto.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ (4) SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION Be sure you are up to date on the latest public policy issues affecting civil liberties online and how they will affect you! Subscribe to the CDT Policy Post news distribution list. CDT Policy Posts, the regular news publication of the Center For Democracy and Technology, are received by nearly 10,000 Internet users, industry leaders, policy makers and activists, and have become the leading source for information about critical free speech and privacy issues affecting the Internet and other interactive communications media. To subscribe to CDT's Policy Post list, send mail to policy-posts-request at cdt.org with a subject: subscribe policy-posts If you ever wish to remove yourself from the list, send mail to the above address with a subject of: unsubscribe policy-posts ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (5) ABOUT THE CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY/CONTACTING US The Center for Democracy and Technology is a non-profit public interest organization based in Washington, DC. The Center's mission is to develop and advocate public policies that advance democratic values and constitutional civil liberties in new computer and communications technologies. Contacting us: General information: info at cdt.org World Wide Web: URL:http://www.cdt.org/ FTP URL:ftp://ftp.cdt.org/pub/cdt/ Snail Mail: The Center for Democracy and Technology 1634 Eye Street NW * Suite 1100 * Washington, DC 20006 (v) +1.202.637.9800 * (f) +1.202.637.0968 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- End Policy Post 2.29 8/1/96 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From johnbr at atl.mindspring.com Thu Aug 1 17:08:40 1996 From: johnbr at atl.mindspring.com (John Brothers) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:08:40 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960801205207.006acf90@pop.atl.mindspring.com> At 10:20 PM 7/31/96 -0800, Jim Bell wrote: >At 07:49 PM 7/31/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >>2. They found a _shotgun_ in his cabin. > >No, no, Tim. The proper way to deliver this to a TV audience is, "They >found an ARSENAL in his COMPOUND!" >(see how much more exciting it is?!? BTW, how many wives does he have?) None! and he lives with his mother! Obviously a complete sicko! :) --- John Brothers Do you have a right not to be offended? From johnbr at atl.mindspring.com Thu Aug 1 17:17:22 1996 From: johnbr at atl.mindspring.com (John Brothers) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:17:22 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960801204953.006b2b7c@pop.atl.mindspring.com> At 02:23 AM 8/1/96 -0400, you wrote: >John Brothers, > >Which locality do you live in? I've got all this toxic waste that I've >been collecting in return for receiving large sums of money, I'd like to >get rid of it as cheply as possible. I thought I might just burn it in a >good "true" libertarian neighborhood. > >You don't mind, do you? I live in the Alpharetta area of Georgia, a northern suburb of Atlanta. You're welcome to come here and burn whatever you like. Oh, of course, I assume that you'll be properly and safely capturing and disposing the toxic ash. Because, after all, if a single microgram of those toxins were to land on my property, I would be forced to sue you, take all of that money, and set up a legal robot to continue to sue your descendents for the next seven thousand generations. And, I guess if the investigation were to show that you were criminally negligent in the proper disposal of those toxins, you would have to be punished. Speaking for myself as a darwinist libertarian, the only fitting punishment to being criminally negligent on such a grand scale would be to execute you, and sterilize every known trace of your genetic code in the gene pool - i.e. all genetic children, brothers, sisters, parents and so forth. You may have some illegitimate/secret offspring or siblings which may survive, but we can't go around tracking everyone's genetic code.. It would be an affront to privacy, and libertarianism in general. I'm sure that your lawyer could probably argue the case down to the point where the only punishment would be your execution, and I guess that would have to suffice - your family wasn't directly involved in the planning and execution of this most heinous crime. But, I'm sure that you would be a properly responsible citizen, and clean up carefully after yourself. It might smell bad, and be a generally unpleasant place, but as a libertarian, I don't have a right to control what you do with your property, nor to object to bad smells - I can purchase filters and such to avoid that. And if it got unpleasant enough, I would just move away, and leave you and your bad smells alone. Have a nice day, --- John Brothers Do you have a right not to be offended? From merriman at amaonline.com Thu Aug 1 17:19:15 1996 From: merriman at amaonline.com (David K. Merriman) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:19:15 +0800 Subject: Brain Tennis with Dorthy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960801064418.006ccf7c@mail1.amaonline.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:59 AM 08/1/96 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >I'm following the Brain Tennis Match between Dorothy Denning and John >Gilmore on encryption and the right to absolute privacy on Hot Wired >(http://www.hotwired.com/braintennis/96/31/index0a.html). > >Were I a participant in this exercise, I would lob the following to Dorothy: > ... ... One might wonder how Dorothy's opinions about privacy et al would change were it *her* communications/privacy/person at risk (be it through torture, GAK, etc.). Were a government - duly elected - to come into power similar to that in 30's Germany or 70's Viet Nam, so that intellectuals or the educated became the targets of oppression, would she be as adamant about the perceived "rights" of Government to intrude in her private life, monitor her communications, and so on? Inquiring minds want to know.... :-) Dave Merriman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgBe+MVrTvyYOzAZAQHoygP/ZeEn00d+uAuJXp29igeMTPe0U8muD3uy tIZItV2e05D9VLaCNdzZKiK9pqGsjA6VzB1sUd8uRUtPu0GKVGrylgjuA/QoK/m6 xOMGLNcvPZVhVbqGMCkFXwR6U5KifMd1mAb14Au25MR7hpfzpCwMBQZ5y495AhRx utMueAGDmIo= =OARQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From warlord at MIT.EDU Thu Aug 1 17:29:11 1996 From: warlord at MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:29:11 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? In-Reply-To: <199608012016.WAA00739@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <9608012108.AA17627@bart-savagewood.MIT.EDU> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi, > Is security provided by 1024-bit PGP key sufficient against most powerful > computers that are available today? Say if smoe organization spent 10 > billions of dollars on a cracking machine, would it be possible to crack > the keys in reasonable time? Well, this depends on a couple of definitions. For example, how do you define "reasonable time"? The most concise answer I can give you is "we don't know". An answer that would make you feel more comfortable is that we believe that factoring a 1024-bit key using GNFS is about 300,000 times harder than factoring a 512-bit key using GNFS. This doesn't take into account increase in computer power. If you take into account increase in technology at the current rate, doubling every 18 months, then a 1024-bit key should be breakable in about 100 years. However this doesn't take into account increases in algorithms. There is no way to predict the discovery of a new factoring algorithm. In addition, there is no way to predict a computational discovery which might increase the base technology faster than the current trend. To get back to your question: If smoe [sic] organization spent 10 billions [sic] of dollars on a cracking machine, would it be possible to crack the keys in a reasonable time? Well, lets assume a P100 is 50 MIPS and costs $500. Then the $10B would purchase 20 million machines. Discounting the storage requirements (factoring a number this large will probably require on the order of hundreds of GBs of storage) and end-time processing power (unknown) required to factor a 1024-bit number, this set of machines would provide "enough" relations for a 1024-bit number in about 1.5 years per key. - -derek PS: These are napkin-style numbers, and I'm making a lot of assumptions here... I assume no responsibility if you use these numbers and they are wrong. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQBuAwUBMgEcrTh0K1zBsGrxAQGNaALEDEtO8/pXZPp134SBcjUqD3NO2P3siirR 8a4pA6S15fwtVDrl2ZWeZb2XL65hbhcWpZ2s6Q3eaQOvFPOiytLtfcujUFV7ef+i 9zJKgUlUFMkOP9fmhZdjZXA= =gPv4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From shabbir at vtw.org Thu Aug 1 17:40:28 1996 From: shabbir at vtw.org (Voters Telecommunications Watch) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:40:28 +0800 Subject: ALERT: Congress rushing to pass surveillance plan! Call now! (8/1/96) Message-ID: <199608012049.QAA13473@panix3.panix.com> ====================================================================== ____ _____ ____ ___ _ _____ ____ _____ | _ \| ____| _ \ / _ \| | | ____| _ \_ _| CONGRESS RUSHING TO | |_) | _| | | | | | |_| | | | _| | |_) || | ENACT SURVEILLANCE | _ <| |___| |_| | | _ | |___| |___| _ < | | LEGISLATION. CALL |_| \_\_____|____/ |_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| CONGRESS NOW! 8/1/96 REPOST THIS ALERT WHERE APPROPRIATE DO NOT REDISTRIBUTE AFTER AUGUST 7, 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Table of contents Introduction What you can do now Background Participating organizations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- INTRODUCTION Late Wednesday, Congress and the Clinton Administration reached a preliminary agreement on a sweeping new surveillance initiative. The President and several Congressional leaders are pushing for a vote on the measure BEFORE CONGRESS RECESSES ON AUGUST 2. If enacted, parts of the proposal would dramatically impact privacy and security on the Internet and other advanced communications technologies. Of particular concern are provisions which: 1. Allows law enforcement to wiretap "suspected terrorists" for up to 48 hours BEFORE obtaining a court order 2. Provide funding for the Digital Telephony Proposal without any public accountability over how the FBI spends the funds Other provisions are also circulating that would: 3. Threaten to impose new restrictions on encryption technologies 4. Seek to criminalize the distribution of 'bomb-making' information on the Internet that is legal in print. Congress needs to hear from you. Congress will rush through the passage of massive new surveillance plans with privacy risks unless you show them there is support for slow, deliberate, reasoned thought on the issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW CALL KEY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS IMMEDIATELY! NO LATER THAN FRIDAY (8/2/96) Please contact as many elected officials on the list below as you can. Urge them to "go slow" and carefully consider the impact these surveillance proposals will have on the privacy and security of all Internet users. Tell them while you appreciate their concern about combating terrorism, the measures being proposed have many potential side effects which must be carefully considered. 1. Call the key members of Congress below and ask them to "go slow" and examine the issues before rushing into changing the delicate balance of law enforcement surveillance and the public. 2. If you are at a loss for words, use the following sample communique: SAMPLE COMMUNIQUE Dear _________, Please do not rush the passage of counter terrorism legislation; I'm concerned that Congress is rushing without carefully considering the implications of privacy. I'm from . Thanks, You should call the following members of Congress because they are steering this legislation and need to hear there is support for slow, deliberate, thoughtful consideration of this issue. Some of thee members *have publicly expressed reservations* about this legislation, and we should support them in their efforts. Senate members: P ST Name and Address Phone Fax = == ======================== ============== ============== R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262 D DE Biden Jr., Joseph R. 1-202-224-5042 1-202-224-0139 D SD Daschle, Thomas A. 1-202-224-2321 1-202-224-2047 R UT Hatch, Orrin G. 1-202-224-5251 1-202-224-6331 R PA Specter, Arlen 1-202-224-4254 1-717-782-4920 D VT Leahy, Patrick J. 1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595 House members: Dist ST Name, Address, and Party Phone Fax ==== == ======================== ============== ============== 6 GA Gingrich, Newt (R) 1-202-225-4501 1-202-225-4656 3 MO Gephardt, Richard A. (D) 1-202-225-2671 1-202-225-7452 6 IL Hyde, Henry J. (R) 1-202-225-4561 1-202-226-1240 14 MI Conyers Jr., John (D) 1-202-225-5126 1-202-225-0072 President William Clinton: White House Comment Line: 1-202-456-1414 3. If you get a response, take a moment and send mail to vtw at vtw.org with "feedback" in the subject line. $ Mail vtw at vtw.org Subject: my feedback from calling Congress They said they're not going to pass most of Clinton's package, because it upsets the delicate balance between law enforcement and the public. ^D Mail sent! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BACKGROUND Among other things, the law enforcement proposals circulating on Capitol Hill include provisions which: o WIRETAPPING WITHOUT COURT ORDER ALLOWED FOR 48 HOURS Congress and the President have already agreed to provisions which would dramatically expand law enforcement surveillance authority. Both of these provisions were proposed by the President as part of the 1995 counter-terrorism legislation, but were dropped from the final bill after Republicans and civil liberties advocates objected. The current proposal would expand law enforcement surveillance authority in two ways: - Emergency 48 Hour Wiretap Authority: Current law requires law enforcement officials to get the affirmative consent of a judge before installing a wiretap. The current proposal would expand law enforcement authority to wiretap "suspected terrorists" for up to 48 hours before obtaining a court order, limiting a critical 4th amendment safeguard. - Multi-Point "Roving" Wiretaps: Current law allows law enforcement to tap only specific LOCATIONS (i.e., a telephone number). In certain very limited circumstances, law enforcement can tap a specific INDIVIDUAL if it can be shown to a judge that the suspect is moving from place to place with the specific intent of thwarting law enforcement. The current proposal would expand this so-called "roving" wiretap authority by making it much easier for law enforcement to tap specific INDIVIDUALS as opposed to specific physical locations. This change would dramatically effect the balance between 4th Amendment privacy rights and public safety which has existed for nearly 30 years, and should not be enacted without careful consideration of the implications. o FUNDING FOR DIGITAL TELEPHONY WITHOUT PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY The Administration and Congress are seeking funding to implement the Digital Telephony Law in a way which eliminates any opportunity for public oversight of law enforcement surveillance ability. The controversial law, known officially as the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), granted the FBI new authority to influence the design of telecommunications networks. At the same time, the law provided substantial public oversight over the FBI's surveillance ability by requiring the FBI to state, on the public record, what its surveillance needs are. The FBI has faced stiff resistance from civil liberties groups and some members of Congress and has not yet been able to obtain funding to implement the requirements of the law. As part of the current proposal, the FBI is seeking a mechanism which will provide funding for CALEA in a way which skirts the public oversight provisions of the law. This is an extremely troubling move by law enforcement which, if enacted, would allow law enforcement essentially unlimited authority to influence the design of telecommunications networks without any accountability. Other provisions which could show up in legislation in the next 72 hours are: o BOMB MAKING MATERIAL ON THE INTERNET In the wake of the recent public concern about terrorism, Senators Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joseph Biden (D-DE) have renewed their efforts to pass legislation to restrict the availability of 'bomb- making' information on the Internet. The Feinstein/Biden amendment was added to the Senate Defense Appropriations bill (S. 1762) in early July, and is not currently part of the new law enforcement initiative. However, the amendment poses a serious threat to chill the the free flow of information on the Internet. o THREATEN TO IMPOSE NEW RESTRICTIONS ON ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGIES: While no specific legislation has been proposed, the Clinton Administration has circulated an outline to Congress which states: "We will seek legislation to strengthen our ability to prevent terrorists from coming into the possession of the technology to encrypt their communications and data so that they are beyond the reach of law enforcement." This statement marks the first time that the Administration has suggested legislation to restrict encryption. This is especially troubling because it comes at a time of growing Congressional support for legislation to promote privacy and security tools for the Net. Of even more concern, the Administration is clearly attempting to use the recent suspected terrorist incidents to push for a new and more restrictive encryption policy. If the Administration succeeds in passing new restrictions on encryption as part of the new surveillance legislation, the future of the Internet as a secure and trusted platform for commerce and private communication will be threatened. Some or all of these provisions may be included in a package voted on by both houses by August 3rd. It is not clear what a final bill will look like, and some of these provisions may not be considered by Congress until later this summer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS The following organizations all urge you to take this action to combat the surveillance initiatives. Check their pages for more background information on these issues. American Civil Liberties Union (http://www.aclu.org) American Communication Association Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org) Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org) EF-Austin (http://www.efa.org) Electronic Privacy Information Center (http://www.epic.org) Feminists for Free Expression National Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org) National Writers Union (http://www.nwu.org/nwu/) People For the American Way (http://www.pfaw.org) Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org) Wired Ventures Ltd. (http://www.hotwired.com) ====================================================================== From jya at pipeline.com Thu Aug 1 17:42:27 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:42:27 +0800 Subject: PCC_war Message-ID: <199608012131.VAA06059@pipe2.t2.usa.pipeline.com> 7-29-96. EBNews: "Encryption ICs Enable Ironclad Net Security." New encryption ICs on PCMCIA cards will be unveiled imminently to allow PC users to make transactions over the Internet with ironclad security. "This will open up electronic commerce pervasively and launch a new market for PCs," said TIS's Bill Sweet. Both National Semiconductor and VLSI Technology plan to unveil affordable chips shortly for PCMCIA encryption cards. National's thumb-scan project, which aims to provide an additional security factor, is a joint effort with Identix. In this system, a holographic laser chip on the card would image a portion of the holder's thumbprint. That image will be compared with the holder's digital thumbprint pattern stored on a memory chip in the card. 7-31-96. Jane's: "Future Warfare | Rise of the robots." A US Defense Science Board (DSB) task force is putting the final touches to a study that members promise will be one of the most controversial ever produced by the panel. The next century adversary will aggressively use offensive information warfare, rely on underground and covert urban facilities and have some ability to attack low earth orbiting satellites. It will require a "revolution in military affairs" achieved through enhanced surveillance capabilities, weapons of mass destruction, thousands of inexpensive missiles, a few very low observable cruise missiles, mines and diesel submarines. The only aspect of tactics and technology that everyone in the DoD seems to agree on is that the most important developments for warfighting over the next 10 to 20 years will be related to information systems. ----- http://jya.com/pccwar.txt (19 kb for 2) PCC_war From drose at azstarnet.com Thu Aug 1 17:53:33 1996 From: drose at azstarnet.com (David M. Rose) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:53:33 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <199608012006.NAA22850@web.azstarnet.com> On 1 Aug 1996 (Timothy C. May) wrote: >I'm with Duncan and Lucky on this one. Nations with a "Privacy Ombudsman" >are almost always nations with extensive files on individuals, their >habits, and their political activities. > >Having a "Privacy Ombudsman" is a bone thrown to the proles. I suspect a >police state like Singapore has such a person. My understanding is that the acceptable term is "ombud", or possibly "ombuds". Cf.: "chair", "anchor", "milk", "post", "g-", "colored", "fire", "police", "China", "French", etc. From jim at ACM.ORG Thu Aug 1 18:25:07 1996 From: jim at ACM.ORG (Jim Gillogly) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:25:07 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? In-Reply-To: <9608012108.AA17627@bart-savagewood.MIT.EDU> Message-ID: <199608012238.PAA25123@mycroft.rand.org> Somebody says: >> Is security provided by 1024-bit PGP key sufficient against most powerful >> computers that are available today? Say if smoe organization spent 10 >> billions of dollars on a cracking machine, would it be possible to crack >> the keys in reasonable time? Derek Atkins responds with some useful and authoritative information -- thanks. But the original author also needs to step back and understand his security needs. In particular, if you're trying to protect your information against an enemy who is willing to spend $10B to get it, they'll have a lot of options other than hiding in a back room with some cracking equipment. Would you be willing to sell them the information you're trying to protect for (say) 10% of that $10B? Would your partner? Your wife? Jim Gillogly Hevensday, 9 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 22:37 From tomw at netscape.com Thu Aug 1 18:35:55 1996 From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:35:55 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software In-Reply-To: <199608011714.KAA08903@clotho.c2.org> Message-ID: <3201376A.2847@netscape.com> sameer wrote: > >> The only thing they can revoke is their permission to provide it for >> download over the internet. They can't revoke our permission to sell >> it in stores or via snail mail. > > Where do you get this idea? Got an inside track into the minds > of the supreme court? The "they" mentioned above is the State Department. Congress can try to do anything. -- You should only break rules of style if you can | Tom Weinstein coherently explain what you gain by so doing. | tomw at netscape.com From hua at chromatic.com Thu Aug 1 18:36:44 1996 From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:36:44 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... Message-ID: <199608012258.PAA29066@ohio.chromatic.com> Louis Freeh is now asking the Congress for $2 billion to fund Digital Telephony. Yes, that is FOUR TIMES what he said it would cost the taxpayers to give up their own privacy. Score one for the cynics who said $500 million was not enough. Ern From jti at i-manila.com.ph Thu Aug 1 18:41:25 1996 From: jti at i-manila.com.ph (Jerome Tan) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:41:25 +0800 Subject: ****Tacoma, Washington Starts Taxing Internet Access 07/30/96 (fwd) Message-ID: <01BB8041.12365200@ip95.i-manila.com.ph> Here in Philippines, the government tax for connecting to the Internet, the percentage is 10%. Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:26:59 -0400 > From: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." > Subject: ****Tacoma, Washington Starts Taxing Internet Access 07/30/96 > > >WASHINGTON, DC, U.S.A., 1996 JUL 30 (NB) -- By Bill Pietrucha. > >Tacoma, Washington, has just gained the distinction of being the > >only municipality in the United States to tax Internet Access > >providers (IAPs) like telephone service providers. > > Somebody needs to do their homework. Austin, TX has been taxing ISP's for at least a year now. A recent Internet Provider meeting on this issue resulted in a return to ISP's of a goodly amound of their taxes because of various issues (read that I didn't go to meeting, I don't run an ISP but a SOHO consultancy w/ Internet services). > >The city of Tacoma has extended its six percent gross receipts tax on > >telecommunications services to include Internet services, Information > >Technology Association of America (ITAA) spokesperson Bob Cohen > >told Newsbytes. I have to pay the state 8.25% interest on any funds my customers deliver to me. > >If other cities attempted to follow Tacoma's lead in taxing IAPs, > >Miler said, it could cause the "Balkanization of the Internet, a > >hodgepodge of confusing, conflicting, and difficult to administer > >Internet tax rules and regulations. Agreed. Jim Choate From wb8foz at nrk.com Thu Aug 1 18:42:11 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:42:11 +0800 Subject: FPGAs and Heat (Re: Paranoid Musings) In-Reply-To: <199608011848.LAA11828@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608012313.TAA12748@nrk.com> > > Timothy C. May writes: > > > This was a company in Bowie, Maryland, closely linked with the NSA and with > > the "supercomputer centers." > > That's one of the things that killed Thinking Machines. It turned out > that a standard supercomputer with PIM chips for memory could give the > same performance for less money. See: http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/beuwolf/beuwolf.html Don is doing interesting things with less... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From adamsc at io-online.com Thu Aug 1 18:42:59 1996 From: adamsc at io-online.com (Chris Adams) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:42:59 +0800 Subject: Tolerance Message-ID: <199608012148.OAA21170@cygnus.com> Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there, especially the "defend to the death" types: How many of you defended Mr. Sternlight's recent membership? # Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! # Automatically receive my resume or PGPKEY by sending email with a subject # of 'send PGPKEY' or 'send resume'. Capitalization counts so be careful! # Web site: http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htm From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 1 18:46:38 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:46:38 +0800 Subject: Welcome Back Message-ID: <199608012151.OAA17837@mail.pacifier.com> At 12:52 PM 8/1/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: >> Do you have an honest job or are you still taking the King's Shilling? > >I have opened a law practice. Just this morning, I visited a client (in >jail) charged with conspiracy to distribute cocaine ... in other words, >one of the Four Horsemen. They checked me for weapons, etc., upon entry, >but no one asked about any cryptographic munitions. Joke of the day: A swarthy fellow was in jail, and was visited by his sister and nerd brother in law. He tells them, "next time you show up, bring me something with a file in it." His bro in law brought a floppy disk... Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From steve at miranova.com Thu Aug 1 18:51:11 1996 From: steve at miranova.com (Steven L Baur) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:51:11 +0800 Subject: Terror attack! In-Reply-To: <32010AC5.1513@vail.tivoli.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Mike" == Mike McNally writes: Mike> Why don't they just be done with it and declare martial law? Wait 'til after the election. -- steve at miranova.com baur Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be proofread for $250/hour. Andrea Seastrand: For your vote on the Telecom bill, I will vote for anyone except you in November. From gary at systemics.com Thu Aug 1 18:55:20 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:55:20 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3201257B.31D2DE92@systemics.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > Having a "Privacy Ombudsman" is a bone thrown to the proles. I suspect a > police state like Singapore has such a person. > > And related to the "photo I.D." discussion, most of these nations demand > that passports be left at hotel desks when checking in. (At least they did > when I spent 6 weeks travelling through Europe in 1983.) Perhaps the theory > is that this stops people from running out on their bills, though credit > cards do the same thing (*). However, the police reportedly inspect these > passports and enter them into data bases to track movements. Many still do. Even ski hire shops in France require a passport, credit card or drivers licence to be _left_ with the shop (even hire car companies don't do this! - I suppose they've figured out you need your driving licence ...) I was recently at a hotel in the Netherlands, and they required me to fill out a form asking for date and place of birth, passport number etc. etc. I asked "What do you want this for?" and they replied "Oh, don't worry, it's not for us, it's for the government"!!! I look around me at the dozen or so people happily giving away these details, including my girlfriend who later has to be given a lesson on misinformation ... (am I the only one who fills out every form as Alexei Sayle with bad handwriting?) Alexei -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From bdolan at use.usit.net Thu Aug 1 19:07:10 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:07:10 +0800 Subject: Terror attack! In-Reply-To: <32010AC5.1513@vail.tivoli.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Mike McNally wrote: > > Why don't they just be done with it and declare martial law? > Be patient. They're working on it. bd Reuters, 8/1/96: FBI Director Louis Freeh warned Congress on Thursday that the United States was under attack from foreign terrorists and said new counter-terrorism weapons were needed to fight back. ... On the Atlanta bomb that caused two deaths and wounded 111 people, he said the FBI had no evidence "of an international terrorist group or a sophisticated group targeting the Olympics in general with respect to that incident." But he said the United States was clearly vulnerable to possible future terrorist attacks involving nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. He said he had recently met Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Charles Krulak to discuss a possible joint FBI-Marine study on ways of countering weapons of mass destruction. ... From wb8foz at nrk.com Thu Aug 1 19:21:30 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:21:30 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software In-Reply-To: <320101B9.500F@netscape.com> Message-ID: <199608012327.TAA12824@nrk.com> Tom Weinstein writes: > We only ship the domestic version to addresses inside the US. They > State Department seems to think this is sufficient. Of course, a > foreign person can always fly here and pick up a copy at Fry's, but > that's not our problem. Or just walk out of a Mission, and buy one on K Street. But it's easier to just get an account on an ISP. I recall several chats with a .nl UN Mission Staffer. He was on Panix or PSI or such. Maybe we should require proof of citizenship before granting a license to use IP. (The irony was, he did not realize the Vienna Convention covered his rented residence as well as the Mission...) -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From wb8foz at nrk.com Thu Aug 1 19:30:45 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:30:45 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA In-Reply-To: <01I7RKOB77H48Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <199608012350.TAA12975@nrk.com> > What, precisely, is an acid bomb? It may be: acid delay fuse; or a "spray acid around" device... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From sandfort at crl.com Thu Aug 1 20:08:10 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:08:10 +0800 Subject: POLL Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, The electronic newsletter put out by the TV show, C-NET Central, had this item in the most recent issue: ------------------------------------------------------------------ 5. "YOUR TURN": SHOULD YOU BE ABLE TO READ BOMB-MAKING INFO? The United States and seven other governments are moving to "felonize" distribution of bomb-making information on the Net and other electronic media. Yet censorship of the Net was recently dealt a double blow by twin defeats of the Communications Decency Act. Is this strictly a free speech issue? Or is there a difference in your mind between pictures of naked people and blueprints for a pipe bomb? And can the Net know the difference? To contribute your opinion, phone CNET at 415/395-7805, enter extension 5400, and leave a message. We'll listen to the responses and broadcast some of the best on CNET radio. Each week Digital Dispatch brings you the new "your turn" question, and each Wednesday you can hear the responses to the previous week's question on CNET radio: http://www.cnet.com/Content/Radio/ ----------------------------------------------------------------- Some of you may have a comment about this subject. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tomw at netscape.com Thu Aug 1 20:11:50 1996 From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:11:50 +0800 Subject: The "Secure" version of Netscape for Linux is *NOT* In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960801033402.00fc1ab8@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <32014B0A.41C6@netscape.com> Alan Olsen wrote: > > I just installed the "secure" version of Netscape off of the "US Only" > download site. > > Seems that it is actualy the international version and not the 128 bit > version. What makes you think you got the export version? Here's one way to find out. If you look in the Security Preferences panel under the Options menu, there are two "Configure" buttons for configuring what ciphers are enabled for SSL 2 and SSL 3. The domestic version supports a greater variety of options, including triple DES. -- You should only break rules of style if you can | Tom Weinstein coherently explain what you gain by so doing. | tomw at netscape.com From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Thu Aug 1 20:29:18 1996 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:29:18 +0800 Subject: crypto CD source In-Reply-To: <199607311213.OAA19633@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <199608011855.TAA02027@server.test.net> Alex de Joode writez: > [..] > : They have a large supply of crypto software available on-line as well. > : (No mention of ITAR on their software down load pages (78 Mb of > : security related software they claim), and it looks you could download > : the lot even if you weren't in the US). > > ftp.replay.com has 220 Mb of crypto software available for download > at no charge .... I didn't make clear: their was no charge for down loading their on-line stuff. I think they are in the US, and mentioned their crypto down load as having no restrictions because of the ITAR implications. Just wondering if anyone outside the US had downloaded `PGP262.ZIP' from their freely accessible ftp area. I get my crypto from US sites also, and your's is on the list :-) ftp.dsi.unimi.it ftp.ox.ac.uk ftp.replay.com http://www.cs.hut.fi/crypto/ (a few more too that's all I can remember off the top of my head). Now if their CD cost $10, and they weren't in the US, I might've bought one. Adam -- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i Message-ID: <199608020041.RAA07308@netcom19.netcom.com> Someone wrote: > Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there, especially > the "defend to the death" types: How many of you defended Mr. > Sternlight's recent membership? There is nothing to defend. Anyone, including Dr. Sternlight, may join this list at any time by mailing a "Suscrive" message to toad.com, and may leave it at any subsequent time by sending another message that says "unSuscrive." It's totally user-operated. No intervention by anyone else required. :) -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 20:39:12 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:39:12 +0800 Subject: Tolerance Message-ID: At 10:46 PM 8/1/96, Chris Adams wrote: >Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there, especially >the "defend to the death" types: How many of you defended Mr. >Sternlight's recent membership? > I certainly did, as you all know. But, to clear things up, I don't think I've ever in my life uttered the phrase "defend to my death your right...." (I don't think asking the 1000+ members of this list to say one way or another is a good idea.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Thu Aug 1 20:51:54 1996 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:51:54 +0800 Subject: Cracking RC4/40 for massive wiretapps In-Reply-To: <199608010603.XAA19276@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608020034.BAA02423@server.test.net> Bill Stewart writes: > But those designs are for one-at-a-time cracks. An interesting question > is whether you can speed up performance substantially by cracking > multiple messages at once. For known plaintext attack on pure RC4 this would work marvelously, should get close to linear speed up I think as the greatest overhead is the key setup. This was discussed some during the netscape SSL break, it didn't apply to 40 bit SSL because it was really 128 bit, just with 88 bits disclosed, so the 88 bits functioned as a salt. But it applies just fine to pure RC4-40, ... or even to ECB DES... This is interesting as applied to DES, does anyone have any banking or funds transfer protocols handy which use DES in ECB mode :-) Perhaps we could get DES down to a manageable number of bits, together with the argument that the attacker wouldn't care who's money he stole. > For instance, if you've got known plaintext, such as a standard > header format saying "FooVoice" or "BEGIN DSA-SIGNED..", you can try > many keys and compare them with _many_ cyphertexts, which may not > slow down the FPGA very much. Thinking of software attacks and RC4-40, if you were attacking pure RC4-40, you would collect your 16k known-plaintext / ciphertext pairs, xor them, and sort the xored texts and store them in some kind of dictionary lookup structure . Then you'd do the key schedule, then traverse the btree with each byte that the RC4_encrypt_byte would have xored with the text being encrypted. As soon as you took a branch which didn't exist in the btree you'd move on to the next key and keyschedule. [hacking interlude] I got bored so I hacked up a test of this of the overheads of lookups, using bsearch under linux I get lookups / sec against number of known plaintexts: known plaintext/ ciphertext actual avg time to pairs lookups/s keys/s keys/s find a key ======================================================== 16k 71k 23k 376M 24 mins 8k 77k 24k 193M 48 mins 4k 91k 25k 101M 1.5 hrs 2k 100k 25k 52M 2.9 hrs 1k 125k 27k 27M 5.6 hrs 1 - 34k 34k 187 days The tests were done on an AMD 486 dx/4 120 (a 120Mhz i486 clone), the keys/s for pure rc4-40 are from a hand optimised assembly version which I'd been playing with. `actual keys' is the keys from the search space of 2^40. `lookups/s' is the number of bsearches per second for the given sized pre-xored table. (Known plaintext xored with ciphertext allows the check for correct key to be done with memcmp). `keys/s' is the number of keys tested at once * the actual keys/s `avg time..' is the expected time before find a key. So based on one machine, if you had 1000 known plaintexts, you would get a key in around 5 hours. Multiply by 100 machines, some faster some slower and it gets interesting. Our only problem now is to find someone dumb enough to use pure RC4-40, Adam -- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i (Welcome back, David...I haven't seen you post in a long while) At 6:44 AM 8/1/96, David K. Merriman wrote: >Were a government - duly elected - to come into power similar to that in >30's Germany or 70's Viet Nam, so that intellectuals or the educated >became the targets of oppression, would she be as adamant about the >perceived "rights" of Government to intrude in her private life, monitor >her communications, and so on? Though I am no defender of the People's Benovolent and Democratic Government of Viet Nam, I think you must be thinking of Cambodia. It was Cambodia, in the form of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, which decided to exterminate all educated persons (except themselves, of course). Those wearing eyeglasses were considered Enemies of the People, because presumably they knew how to read. Compared to Cambodia, Viet Nam was a paradise. In fact, I cheered in '79 when Viet Nam invaded Cambodia. --Tim May, who wonders if anyone with access to the Net will become part of the mountains of skulls in Pax Americana Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 21:01:29 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:01:29 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... Message-ID: At 10:58 PM 8/1/96, Ernest Hua wrote: >Louis Freeh is now asking the Congress for $2 billion to fund >Digital Telephony. Yes, that is FOUR TIMES what he said it >would cost the taxpayers to give up their own privacy. Score >one for the cynics who said $500 million was not enough. And when this $2 B is defeated by encryption, look for dramatic, drastic, and draconian restrictions on crypto. (With the Internet Phone deals--even Intel is entering the market--why are there no widespread uses of PGP or S/MIME? Yes, I know about about PGPhone, and also the Nautilus product, but none seem to be used by anyone I know. Maybe we should spend some time talking about the practical realities of these tools.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Thu Aug 1 21:19:29 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:19:29 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA In-Reply-To: <199608012350.TAA12975@nrk.com> Message-ID: <32015CE7.3EF0@vail.tivoli.com> David Lesher wrote: > > > What, precisely, is an acid bomb? > > It may be: > acid delay fuse; > or > a "spray acid around" device... Remember what Friday said on Dragnet: Marijuana is the match, Heroin is the fuse, And LSD is the BOMB. Maybe that's what they meant. ______c_____________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Thu Aug 1 21:28:08 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:28:08 +0800 Subject: Tolerance In-Reply-To: <199608012148.OAA21170@cygnus.com> Message-ID: <32015C84.4775@vail.tivoli.com> Chris Adams wrote: > > Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there What does being a libertarian, or true libertarian, have to do with wanting Sternlight on the list? I strongly suspect you have a dramatic misunderstanding of libertarianism. > Sternlight's recent membership? For what it's worth, I had no problem with D.S. being on the list. That opinion has very, very little to do with my libertarian leanings, I assure you. ______c_____________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From drose at AZStarNet.com Thu Aug 1 21:37:21 1996 From: drose at AZStarNet.com (David M. Rose) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:37:21 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <199608020153.SAA00324@web.azstarnet.com> Mike McNally wrote: >That reminds me: I thumbed through BiBi's terrorism book (the one D.S. >certified as prerequisite reading for particpation in intelligent >discussions about something-or-other) at B&N the other day. It's a >pretty thin book. Most of it seems to be about the rise of the Moslem >Menace and how the Sultan's hordes will soon be upon us all. The last >chapter outlines all the "necessary measures" governments must take >to stamp out the wildfire of terrorism. Same old same old, mostly, >like allowing suspects to be held without charges, allowing warrantless >searches (I think), thorough weapon registration, and so on. The last >one (or next-to-last; I think the last one is "brainwash the populace >into thinking this is all a good idea") is about establishing a >periodic "civil liberties review panel". > >Yeah right. OK. But I sure would like to have an automatic weapon for self/home/"national" defense w/o going through a tremendous amount of B.S. (as Israelis are excused from). I believe that you Texans and we Arizonans have the privilege; in "urban" states, where the need truly is, good luck. Also, I don't know what your experience in the Middle East is. Me, I worked in Iran and exited just before the Jan. '79 "revolution". Menace & murder. You *really* have no idea. Hint: I'm alive. If you still (I don't know your age) think that humans are all the same, but we juss gots diffrunt colors 'n' cultures, I *strongly* recommend an extended period of travel to the third world. In all sincerity, Dave From gcg at pb.net Thu Aug 1 21:43:46 1996 From: gcg at pb.net (Geoffrey C. Grabow) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:43:46 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802021606.00697f50@mail.pb.net> At 15:38 08/01/96 PDT, Jim Gillogly wrote: > >Somebody says: >>> Is security provided by 1024-bit PGP key sufficient against most powerful >>> computers that are available today? Say if smoe organization spent 10 >>> billions of dollars on a cracking machine, would it be possible to crack >>> the keys in reasonable time? > >Derek Atkins responds with some useful and authoritative >information -- thanks. > Also, remember that although the PGP key is 1024 bits, it generates a much smaller IDEA key with 56 bits (I think... anyone?). The 56 bit key is vunerable to that $1 mil mystery machine that the NSA may or may not have. G.C.G. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Geoffrey C. Grabow | Great people talk about ideas. | | Oyster Bay, New York | Average people talk about things. | | gcg at pb.net | Small people talk about people. | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | PGP 2.6.2 public key available at http://www.pb.net/~wizard | | and on a plethora of key servers around the world. | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | That which does not kill us, makes us stranger. - Trevor Goodchild | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 1 22:00:06 1996 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:00:06 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! Message-ID: <199608020217.TAA22834@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 01 Aug 1996, Gary Howland wrote: >jim bell wrote: >> >> At 07:49 PM 7/31/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >> > >> >2. They found a _shotgun_ in his cabin. >> >> No, no, Tim. The proper way to deliver this to a TV audience is, "They >> found an ARSENAL in his COMPOUND!" > >Alternatively, describe the shotgun as a 50 caliber cannon. > >Gary [snip] Actually, a 12-gage shotgun is approximately .73 caliber. Maybe it was a 16-gage? BTW, many "real terrorist incidents" are acknowledged by the group committing them, so that they will win support for their "cause," or notoriety, or whatever other gratification their sick minds might derive from carnage. The fact that no one has claimed responsibility for the bombing skews the perpetrator probabilities more toward a single disturbed individual or a Reichstag rehash. Ernest Hua (hua at chromatic.com) wrote: >: How does one verify that an IP address is coming from a U.S. site? >: How do most FTP site (e.g. those which carry crypto) determine the >: origins of a connection? >What's the use ? It makes it only nominally more difficult to access >an US crypto site, one needs first to esthablish an US beachhead ie. >open an US account, and ftp the eleet crypto warez using the newly >created US account as an intermediary. >So the next step will be a tag that a user is an 'alien' ? [snip] The chupa-cabras, Grays, and the Art Bell Fan Club would file an EEOC class-action lawsuit, citing preferential treatment for beings that "the average citizen" actually BELIEVES in. More lawyer-bait. Jonathan Wienke "1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" --Adolf Hitler "46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." --The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm 1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.? Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB From markm at voicenet.com Thu Aug 1 22:05:17 1996 From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:05:17 +0800 Subject: Tolerance In-Reply-To: <199608012148.OAA21170@cygnus.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Chris Adams wrote: > Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there, especially > the "defend to the death" types: How many of you defended Mr. > Sternlight's recent membership? I had absolutely no problem with Sternlight subscribing to cpunks. In fact, I would be opposed to any action that attempted to remove him from the list. I also have the right to killfile whomever I want to, and I will defend that right, also. However, if cpunks was a "closed" list with a definitive charter, I would not be displeased with any of the list owners who would prevent David Sternlight from subscribing or posting to the list. - -- Mark PGP encrypted mail prefered Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348 http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMgFnUrZc+sv5siulAQGY3AP9GngPhL570IceIr+Ls8OaE3gIrTRWQVU6 4gvozv/4g0nEUmT/S+KcnM5ySIQACB2E8LlwG8F2Fb8fLHquywS9Ql28mwx0oCfY OjO/hycM4UGGx5W0nGli8dJ95mpzIm9VDZNsRbrIPKbo8s5bi55Dlx9BwsG28PY5 BVKWCMk+U/g= =mSZs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at c2.org Thu Aug 1 22:45:25 1996 From: nobody at c2.org (Anonymous User) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:45:25 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? Message-ID: <199608020305.UAA11868@infinity.c2.org> > But the original author also needs to step back and understand his > security needs. In particular, if you're trying to protect your > information against an enemy who is willing to spend $10B to get it, > they'll have a lot of options other than hiding in a back room with some > cracking equipment. Would you be willing to sell them the information > you're trying to protect for (say) 10% of that $10B? Would your partner? > Your wife? The idea is simple. Since it is easy to increase the size of the pgp key -- certainly easier than improving my wife -- it is not uneconomical to be a little overly paranoid over the size of my key. All it costs me is a couple of seconds of CPU time! From jgrasty at gate.net Thu Aug 1 22:45:34 1996 From: jgrasty at gate.net (Joey Grasty) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:45:34 +0800 Subject: South Florida Cypherpunks Meeting Message-ID: <199608020315.XAA66046@osceola.gate.net> Y'all: The South Florida Cypherpunks will meet at Hops Grill & Bar in Boynton Beach, FL on Saturday, August 17 at 2:00 PM. As always, our meeting place is at a microbrewery, and this one has some very fine brews. In addition, the Cypherpunks Brewmaster, Jim Ray, is brewing up a special "summer dark" brew for the meeting. We will enjoy his swill^H^H^H^H^Hfine beer at my house following the meeting.* I'll post directions to Hops as we get closer to the meeting time and put a map on my web page at: http://www.c2.net/~winsock/ Please send me a note if you plan to attend so that I can alert the NSA^H^H^Hrestaurant on how many will attend. Send me your key and fingerprint for keysigning if it hasn't been signed by any subversives^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcypherpunks before. * All joking aside, Jim is a very fine brewmaster. I just wish he'd spend a few bucks and ferment in something other than 2 liter coke bottles that explode in someone's truck... Regards, -- Joey Grasty jgrasty at gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes] jgrasty at pts.mot.com [work -- designing pagers] "Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann PGP = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13 93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7 From alano at teleport.com Thu Aug 1 22:49:09 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:49:09 +0800 Subject: The "Secure" version of Netscape for Linux is *NOT* Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802033114.00e9ed38@mail.teleport.com> At 05:25 PM 8/1/96 -0700, Tom Weinstein wrote: >Alan Olsen wrote: >> >> I just installed the "secure" version of Netscape off of the "US Only" >> download site. >> >> Seems that it is actualy the international version and not the 128 bit >> version. > >What makes you think you got the export version? > >Here's one way to find out. If you look in the Security Preferences >panel under the Options menu, there are two "Configure" buttons for >configuring what ciphers are enabled for SSL 2 and SSL 3. The domestic >version supports a greater variety of options, including triple DES. I connected to my site running Stronghold 1.3b1. Only got 40 bit encryption. I then connected to Netscape's Store site. Only got 40 bit encryption. I checked the info box (or about box, I don't remember which) for the connection and it claimed to be running the "exportable" version. (The Win95 version connects properly to both sites with no tweaking needed.) I will double check, but neither site would connect with 128 bits straight out of the tar file. --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 22:54:38 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:54:38 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software Message-ID: At 11:27 PM 8/1/96, David Lesher wrote: >Tom Weinstein writes: > >> We only ship the domestic version to addresses inside the US. They >> State Department seems to think this is sufficient. Of course, a >> foreign person can always fly here and pick up a copy at Fry's, but >> that's not our problem. > >Or just walk out of a Mission, and buy one on K Street. > >But it's easier to just get an account on an ISP. > >I recall several chats with a .nl UN Mission Staffer. He was on >Panix or PSI or such. Maybe we should require proof of citizenship >before granting a license to use IP. I know some Russians, through various connections in the Valley. They routinely stock up on software at Fry's, in Sunnyvale, Palo Alto, etc., load up their suitcases, and then fly back to Moscow. (Of course, the bulk is not too great, because they only buy one copy of each program....) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 23:10:23 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 14:10:23 +0800 Subject: Pipe bombs Message-ID: So now we are to spend the next six or eight months putting instructions on how to build pipe bombs in our .sigs, reading endless analyses of how the "Antiterrorism and Safety Act of 1996" is unconstitutional, following the CDA-type emergency challenge mounted by VTW/ACLU/NRA, and wondering who will be arrested first. Fuck them. Fuck Swinestein, Klinton, Gingrich, and all the rest. And fuck Dole. (On second thought, don't--it might not be a survivable experience.) I say they've all earned only our contempt. It's time to accelerate our efforts to undermine this foolish experiment in pandering to the masses. --Tim May Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container. From markm at voicenet.com Thu Aug 1 23:29:31 1996 From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 14:29:31 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960802021606.00697f50@mail.pb.net> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Geoffrey C. Grabow wrote: > Also, remember that although the PGP key is 1024 bits, it generates a much > smaller IDEA key with 56 bits (I think... anyone?). The 56 bit key is > vunerable to that $1 mil mystery machine that the NSA may or may not have. Nope. The IDEA key is 128 bits long and is probably much harder to break than a 3000-bit RSA modulus. Of course, the comparison is really useless, since nobody knows how advanced the NSA's factoring capabilities are. - -- Mark PGP encrypted mail prefered Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348 http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMgGAtrZc+sv5siulAQGDSAP9HDXWsAPMzR/WUc29OLvYs+gg78HWsewH raZSNPP+O80Kjub/K5vmvz83b227H6wapyzOQpeVByGu+IafKi74ZTO0KhkrMLdK FX93eY0AKFYLU/PVgxGvTsIJt1SISK5URfSLhymYVbulW/Cevute7nHvf+ZmysHy YEY6ZQhx3Eo= =Veh2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 1 23:34:36 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 14:34:36 +0800 Subject: Southern Cracker Beer Bombs in Trucks Message-ID: At 11:16 PM 8/1/96, Joey Grasty wrote: >* All joking aside, Jim is a very fine brewmaster. I just wish >he'd spend a few bucks and ferment in something other than 2 liter >coke bottles that explode in someone's truck... "Explode"? Is this one of those southern cracker beer bombs? Let's see...circumstantially, we've got: - a southerner - a truck - an explosion I'd say that if Jim is either overweight or has ever fired a gun, we've got an arrest before dawn. But we've got to hurry--NBC wants Katie Couric present at the bust. --Louis Freeh Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 2 00:59:07 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 15:59:07 +0800 Subject: An example of KKKlintonista harrassment and censorship In-Reply-To: <199608020040.RAA24954@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: >From mwohler at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 1 20:40:35 1996 Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 01 Aug 96 22:34:41 EDT for dlv Received: from [206.214.98.6] by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; id AA25392 for dlv at bwalk.dm.com; Thu, 1 Aug 96 20:40:35 -0400 Received: from Marc's Station (nyc-ny20-18.ix.netcom.com [205.186.166.210]) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA24954 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 17:40:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199608020040.RAA24954 at dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mwohler at popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 20:42:45 -0400 To: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) From: "Marc J. Wohler" Subject: RE:Clinton is a terrorist and a murderer. At 05:22 PM 8/1/96 EDT, you wrote: >"Marc J. Wohler" writes: > >> At 10:43 PM 7/29/96 EDT, you wrote: >> >> >Clinton is a terrorist and a murderer. >> >> Can you explain or expand on this? >> > >How much will you pay me for my time? Just as I suspected.*Ignorant bullshit* From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 02:10:45 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 17:10:45 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960731130157.0069c420@mail.io.com> Message-ID: We require people who have syphilis to divulge who their sex partners were. I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but I haven't heard of any activist movement against it in the past 80-odd years it's been in effect. We require property owners who don't have city-sewage hookups, to install their septic tanks and maintain them in certain defined configurations which estop them from contaminating the neighbor's well. I don't know if that's a good idea or not - but I haven't seen sentiment against sewage regulation of property owners. So why should we be terribly upset about an ordinance which makes it illegal to operate a residential kitchen and a residential sewge-disposal operation in a city park or a city sidewalk? From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 02:50:29 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 17:50:29 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" In-Reply-To: <96Aug1.115045edt.20493@janus.algorithmics.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Robin Powell wrote: > Burning toxic waste is intrisically damaging to other people, > blasting your boombox is not (unless it is so loud as to actually > cause ear damage to bystanders, but given the volume of music > tolerated at rock concerts, I find this highly unlikely). "Given the loss of privacy tolerated by 99.9999% of American citizens in the past twenty years, no one has a right to complain about the government taking new powers for itself." You cannot have it both ways. If you are free to define what is or is not a public nuisance when you do it; likewise am I. From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 2 04:06:36 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 19:06:36 +0800 Subject: Southern Cracker Beer Bombs in Trucks Message-ID: <199608020607.XAA14971@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:23 PM 8/1/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both >ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware >stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a >good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly >on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. >Do not pack >the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want >the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder >sitting loose in a very rigid container. For "safety" purposes (at least for the builder!) I would add that the threads on the pipe should be covered with a generous quantity of vaseline, grease, wax, or other similar material. Otherwise, the final tighten-up might cause an explosion if granules of powder get stuck in the threads and ignite due to friction. Evidence reduction tips: Discard drill bit used to make hole in pipe. Carefully avoid leaving any drill shavings in work area. Completely use/discard any extra powder/fuse not used in the bomb. (Chemical analysis will reveal similarity...) When tightening the pipe/cap, shield the work with a thick layer of folded-up paper towel or other material, so your Vice-Grips (or other such wrench, or vice) don't leave "tool marks" on the pipe. (Discard, by burning, such paper after use.) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Aug 2 04:59:05 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 19:59:05 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? In-Reply-To: <199608012016.WAA00739@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Anonymous wrote: > Is security provided by 1024-bit PGP key sufficient against most powerful > computers that are available today? Say if smoe organization spent 10 > billions of dollars on a cracking machine, would it be possible to crack > the keys in reasonable time? I'd bet if they wanted it that bad they'd spend a half million on buying the key. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Aug 2 05:02:11 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:02:11 +0800 Subject: Again, disappointed in Gingrich In-Reply-To: <01I7RL8DXKCK8Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, E. ALLEN SMITH wrote: > Again, I'm disappointed in Gingrich. This amplifies the earlier > comments. > -Allen > >Clinton, congressional leaders to meet on terrorism > > _(c) Copyright 1996 Nando.net_ > > Associated Press > [...] > > Gingrich, interviewed on NBC's "Meet the Press," said, "I think that > > we should have a provision that allows us to recognize that we now > > live in the age of the cellular telephone and allows us to track an > > individual person" He said the taggant requirement was "a > > possibility." Night of the long knives anyone? I'd bet Mr. Bell has a solution for this. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From ogren at cris.com Fri Aug 2 05:13:34 1996 From: ogren at cris.com (David F. Ogren) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:13:34 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? Message-ID: <199608020517.BAA12270@darius.cris.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 02 01:13:30 1996 >Somebody says: >>> Is security provided by 1024-bit PGP key sufficient against most powerful >>> computers that are available today? Say if smoe organization spent 10 >>> billions of dollars on a cracking machine, would it be possible to crack >>> the keys in reasonable time? I'll defer to Mr. Atkin's numbers here, although I think that TLA's may have more computing power than his rough estimates. No matter what the exact numbers are, it seems that the answer is the same. 1024 bit keys appear to be secure for 1996, at least for individuals. You also have to remember that even if a 1024 bit key could be cracked for a mere [sic] million dollars, you have succeeded in making it easier for an organization to break into your house and bug your computer than crack your RSA key. Or use some other method (bribery, extortion, violence) to obtain that information. > Also, remember that although the PGP key is 1024 bits, it generates a > much > smaller IDEA key with 56 bits (I think... anyone?). The 56 bit key is > vunerable to that $1 mil mystery machine that the NSA may or may not > have. > IDEA keys are 128 bits long. (DES keys are the ones with 56 bits.) However, symmetric cryptosystems, such as IDEA, are harder to break by brute force. It is currently estimated that a 128 bit IDEA key is the equivalent of a 2304 bit RSA key. So, even though the 128 bit IDEA session key is shorter than the 1024 bit RSA key, the RSA key is easier to break using brute force. - -- David F. Ogren | ogren at concentric.net | "A man without religion is like a fish PGP Key ID: 0x6458EB29 | without a bicycle" - ------------------------------|---------------------------------------- Don't know what PGP is? | Need my public key? It's available Send a message to me with the | by server or by sending me a message subject GETPGPINFO | with the subject GETPGPKEY -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgGOfOSLhCBkWOspAQEpzgf/Tn1gI8rjg+RxNbor9uIHMZgLWxGHcoMu WleZrgd2O/K6JNcBySpeLCVe+xgUwbdXPThLO6jP4eSwqpuNtZTLWmaU2LZond+O XIWSXRzEcvdFPoFISDpxLyLEJtZu122bc1xdlI8zhbO2CqeOcJmJ47WAaTul3wg7 MIyl7zZAvrXrzZ8ByYTpoG7C5d11kEeKCLw7ObxYXCaXXhWFphbxO8Kq3/C597H1 rb9cRu2zyt5OmN1ySMifTbrfMJvkeb9cNsSijv3q5m+ciIX5DKoH07kO82RxjT98 ndpyGbZkbZLWjKvDeNvrh2EtJRV6mfOIIZr2zaQyuyKlYmoP+VKuDA== =QN4L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grafolog at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 05:15:05 1996 From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:15:05 +0800 Subject: A funny thing happend to my data on the way to the bank In-Reply-To: <199608011745.KAA19325@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996 anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: > 172-42-6111, according to the Boston Consulting Group in Massachusetts, > which employed Netanyahu for about one-year during 1979-80.=20 It was around then that the Social Security Administration was issuing advisories that Social Security Numbers not be used for identification purposes, because of errors made in isseing the numbers. Specifically, 5% of the numbers were issued to two or more people. 3% of numbers were issued to people who allready had one or more numbers. A further 3% to 5% were issued in error for other reasons. xan Illiterate: adj. Inability to read write or speak five or less languages. Funksioneel Ongeleerd: a. Die wat kon nee elf or meer tale lees, skryf and gesprek. From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Fri Aug 2 05:34:13 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:34:13 +0800 Subject: Viet Nam Considered Less Harmful than Cambodia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > --Tim May, who wonders if anyone with access to the Net will become part of > the mountains of skulls in Pax Americana I once gave an account on my workstation to a Jesuit priest who was later assassinated in El Salvador, but it was mostly for access to a few things, not really "on the net." Does that count? -rich From alano at teleport.com Fri Aug 2 05:46:16 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:46:16 +0800 Subject: The "Secure" version of Netscape for Linux is *NOT* Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802054049.00b19604@mail.teleport.com> At 08:31 PM 8/1/96 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote: >At 05:25 PM 8/1/96 -0700, Tom Weinstein wrote: >>Alan Olsen wrote: >>> >>> I just installed the "secure" version of Netscape off of the "US Only" >>> download site. >>> >>> Seems that it is actualy the international version and not the 128 bit >>> version. >> >>What makes you think you got the export version? >> >>Here's one way to find out. If you look in the Security Preferences >>panel under the Options menu, there are two "Configure" buttons for >>configuring what ciphers are enabled for SSL 2 and SSL 3. The domestic >>version supports a greater variety of options, including triple DES. > >I connected to my site running Stronghold 1.3b1. Only got 40 bit >encryption. I then connected to Netscape's Store site. Only got 40 bit >encryption. I checked the info box (or about box, I don't remember which) >for the connection and it claimed to be running the "exportable" version. >(The Win95 version connects properly to both sites with no tweaking needed.) > >I will double check, but neither site would connect with 128 bits straight >out of the tar file. My apologies to everyone involved! I fucked up! There was a period of time between when I downloaded and when I installed. The version I installed was not the one I installed from the secure site. (I had thought I had not downloaded the 3.0b5 version for Linux, except for the secure version. It seems that I had downloaded it when the first version of 3.0b5 came out, not the 3.0b5a version...) Sorry again! --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 05:58:27 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:58:27 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: At 13:06 8/1/96, David M. Rose wrote: >On 1 Aug 1996 (Timothy C. May) wrote: > >>I'm with Duncan and Lucky on this one. Nations with a "Privacy Ombudsman" >>are almost always nations with extensive files on individuals, their >>habits, and their political activities. >> >>Having a "Privacy Ombudsman" is a bone thrown to the proles. I suspect a >>police state like Singapore has such a person. > >My understanding is that the acceptable term is "ombud", or possibly >"ombuds". Cf.: "chair", "anchor", "milk", "post", "g-", "colored", "fire", >"police", "China", "French", etc. Ombudsman is a Swedish term. I suppose the modern day English deconstruction/reconstruction would be ombudsperson. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 06:03:12 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:03:12 +0800 Subject: Brian quit the feds! [was:Re: Photo IDs] Message-ID: At 11:51 8/1/96, Brian Davis wrote: >No longer a federal prosecutor! Congratulations, Brian. Though I will miss having a confessed 'real' Fed on the list. Well, "former federal prosecutor" still sounds pretty good. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 06:38:35 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:38:35 +0800 Subject: Tolerance Message-ID: At 14:46 8/1/96, Chris Adams wrote: >Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there, especially >the "defend to the death" types: How many of you defended Mr. >Sternlight's recent membership? There was nothing to defend. To the best of my knowledge, nobody suggested that DS be thrown off the list. One joker unsubed Sternlight, but that was hardly something that he couldn't fix himself. Did I want him on the list? Hell no. Do I believe he has a right to join the list? Yes, with one possible exception. The list owner can ban anybody, since the list is using the owner's resources. In this case, from a libertarian standpoint, not even an explanation of such an action would be required. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 06:43:57 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:43:57 +0800 Subject: Southern Cracker Beer Bombs in Trucks (fwd) Message-ID: <199608021124.GAA09477@einstein> Hi all, I work with Hi Performance and Experimental rockets and I am somewhat familiar with explosives and the handling thereof. I have a couple of comments to add to the pipe bomb building thread... Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 23:06:14 -0800 > From: jim bell > Subject: Re: Southern Cracker Beer Bombs in Trucks > > >Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both > >ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware > >stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a > >good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly > >on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. > >Do not pack > >the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want > >the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder > >sitting loose in a very rigid container. > > For "safety" purposes (at least for the builder!) I would add that the > threads on the pipe should be covered with a generous quantity of vaseline, > grease, wax, or other similar material. Otherwise, the final tighten-up > might cause an explosion if granules of powder get stuck in the threads and > ignite due to friction. Do this and you will get a reaction which can cause a spontaneous explosion. In short keep all greases and other such products away from explosives. If you must use threads on a pipe in such a situation make VERY shure they are clean and dry. I would use water to first wash the water solubles away and then would use alcholol to clean the threads of the remaining debree. Also, always use a cotten rag otherwise you run the risk of building up a static charge sufficient to set it off. > When tightening the pipe/cap, shield the work with a thick layer of > folded-up paper towel or other material, so your Vice-Grips (or other such > wrench, or vice) don't leave "tool marks" on the pipe. (Discard, by burning, such paper after use.) If you must use metal tools in the constructio of your bomb make shure of two things. First, there is another person to call the ambulance. Also be shure to use a non-sparking tool (read that as expensive) do NOT use steel or iron tools. You would just be asking to blow yourself up from sparks. Most tool catalogs will have a small section of Beryllium based tools or something similar. Jim Choate From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 2 06:48:45 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:48:45 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? Message-ID: <199608020836.BAA05655@toad.com> At 10:16 PM 8/1/96 -0400, "Geoffrey C. Grabow" wrote: >Also, remember that although the PGP key is 1024 bits, it generates a much >smaller IDEA key with 56 bits (I think... anyone?). The 56 bit key is >vunerable to that $1 mil mystery machine that the NSA may or may not have. The PGP RSA keysize is user-selectable. The IDEA key is not 56 bits (that's DES) - it's 128 bits, and remember that you currently need to use brute force keysearch on it, unlike RSA keys which have to be much longer because they have special forms and can be cracked by prime-number searching, which is a much faster process that doesn't have to try anything near to every 1024-bit number. As somebody else pointed out, the 128-bit IDEA key is about as strong as a 3000-bit RSA key - though that was before the latest factoring algorithm was demonstrated to work so well, which means that it's probably about as strong as a 4-5000-bit RSA key. > | That which does not kill us, makes us stranger. - Trevor Goodchild | :-) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # # Dispel Authority! From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 06:53:52 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:53:52 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) Message-ID: <199608021118.GAA09469@einstein> Hi All, Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 01:35:00 -0700 > From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) > Subject: Re: Tolerance > > Hell no. Do I believe he has a right to join the list? Yes, with one > possible exception. The list owner can ban anybody, since the list is using > the owner's resources. In this case, from a libertarian standpoint, not > even an explanation of such an action would be required. If the person joining the public list is warned that the list owner reserves that right I would agree. It would require such a warning to be issued at the time the person received their notification of successful joining. If that warning is not present and the list is advertised as PUBLIC then NO, not even the list operator can ethicaly refuse membership to anyone for any reason other than criminal activity by a member. Otherwise it isn't public. Just because you provide a service does not give you unlimited or even limited control if you make it clear it is public and therefore open to anyone. Libertarian views should be basicaly if it doesn't harm anothers person or property without their prior consent then it should be legal and permissible. A public list means that the owner does not reserve any rights of moderation or cencorship. This is the way public is applied to the government and it is the way it MUST be applied to private individuals. This is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. In short the ethical situation is the same as if a city declares a park to be public and then begins to bar people from sleeping there at night. Jim Choate From sparks at bah.com Fri Aug 2 06:59:41 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:59:41 +0800 Subject: Who the hell is .... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802100835.0069d380@pop1.jmb.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- OK, I'v been on the list a bit now. I see a lot of the same people posting to it, My question is " Who the Hell is Sternlight" At first I thought it was a pen name ( the light on the end of a boat ?? ) Thanks -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMgHOEeJ+JZd/Y4yVAQEu4gQLB0BjGZB+ezonyMrzCEE4+FWA/l18CeLz tIyRRuLiCKw/IO/sNAJeaCQP0D0IsFcMVnjs6rlQ5hiVX09+P4P8IlNfFjH6TdN0 HezEsU9yupltcNpje9PoxnGI38QgN3yQbjB06+xHf37KPxdIzBr+/7/pRyash5dl z5StfU0SSZIhPg== =cUAP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 07:00:56 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:00:56 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports (fwd) Message-ID: <199608021138.GAA09504@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:53:57 -0700 (MST) > From: drose at AZStarNet.com (David M. Rose) > Subject: Re: Internal Passports > > OK. But I sure would like to have an automatic weapon for > self/home/"national" defense w/o going through a tremendous amount of B.S. > (as Israelis are excused from). I believe that you Texans and we Arizonans > have the privilege; in "urban" states, where the need truly is, good luck. We have to go through the same BS that you do to get automatic weapons. > Also, I don't know what your experience in the Middle East is. Me, I worked > in Iran and exited just before the Jan. '79 "revolution". Menace & murder. > You *really* have no idea. Hint: I'm alive. > > If you still (I don't know your age) think that humans are all the same, but > we juss gots diffrunt colors 'n' cultures, I *strongly* recommend an > extended period of travel to the third world. I do and I have. Jim Choate From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 07:05:32 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:05:32 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <199608021135.GAA09497@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 01:13:26 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > Subject: Re: A Libertine Question > > We require people who have syphilis to divulge who their sex partners > were. I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but I haven't heard of any > activist movement against it in the past 80-odd years it's been in effect. Clear and present danger to possibly unknowing persons lives. People have a right to know if their sex partners have communicable diseases. In the case of a 'Typhoid Mary' type disease then everyone has a right to know that person is infected. > We require property owners who don't have city-sewage hookups, to install > their septic tanks and maintain them in certain defined configurations > which estop them from contaminating the neighbor's well. I don't know if > that's a good idea or not - but I haven't seen sentiment against sewage > regulation of property owners. Clear and present danger. Once a well is contaminated that contamination can spread through the whole local water table and infect hundreds if not thousands of people with disease without warning. > So why should we be terribly upset about an ordinance which makes it > illegal to operate a residential kitchen and a residential sewge-disposal > operation in a city park or a city sidewalk? As long as they have a license to operate a food dispencing facility (in other words they are certifying they are aware of the correct processes for such operations) then nobody should have the right to interfere with their operation unless with probable cause (ie proof of danger such as bad weenies in their hot dogs). This would not apply to individuals or families making such food in the same place for their own and NOT public consumption. A person or group has a right to swing their fists all they want, just not in my face. This also applies to the government which is nothing more than our elected representatives. We also can not give them rights we ourselves don't posses. Jim Choate From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 07:11:51 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:11:51 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) Message-ID: <199608021128.GAA09487@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 01:36:56 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > Subject: Re: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" > > "Given the loss of privacy tolerated by 99.9999% of American citizens in > the past twenty years, no one has a right to complain about the > government taking new powers for itself." > > You cannot have it both ways. If you are free to define what is or is not > a public nuisance when you do it; likewise am I. AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION Articles in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution. ARTICLE IX. The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ARTICLE X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. [The first ten amendments went into effect on 15 December 1791.] From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 08:01:01 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 23:01:01 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) Message-ID: <199608021218.HAA09568@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 01:36:56 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > Subject: Re: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" > > "Given the loss of privacy tolerated by 99.9999% of American citizens in > the past twenty years, no one has a right to complain about the > government taking new powers for itself." > > You cannot have it both ways. If you are free to define what is or is not > a public nuisance when you do it; likewise am I. To the first comment, numerical superiority is not sufficient reason in a democracy to justify actions by that democracy. One of the basic ideas behind democracy is that certain aspects of individuals are inherent and uncontrollable by that democracy (ie rights). To my mind democracy is the only form of government which recognizes a priori that everyone is not alike and therefore will want different things. This can be said of no other form of government which treats persons as identical cogs in a government machine. In short, democracy is not mob rule however much the majority might like that idea. I would say that the first comment above can be said another way, "If you have been raped once then you should not complain any about subsequent rapes." Clearly utter bullshit. This is pure and simple victim-speak. As to the second, you are not free to define public nuisance, only nuisances to yourself. The burden of proof rests on the individual to prove that such actions by a third party are a public nuisance. For something to be a public nuisance its effects MUST extend to property or persons other than the instigator AND it must be shown that damage occurs without prior permission. Simply because they do something that irks you does not make it public let alone a nuisance. Jim Choate From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 2 08:07:16 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 23:07:16 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes: > > Ombudsman is a Swedish term. I suppose the modern day English > deconstruction/reconstruction would be ombudsperson. Indeed, City University of New York has an ombudsperson. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From daw at cs.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 2 08:38:33 1996 From: daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 23:38:33 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps In-Reply-To: <01I7RM0CJM388Y4XIK@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <4tsfjm$oi6@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> In article <01I7RM0CJM388Y4XIK at mbcl.rutgers.edu>, E. ALLEN SMITH wrote: > > The Administration's proposal would also significantly expand current > wiretapping authority to allow multi-point (or "roving") wiretaps. This > would dramatically change surveillance authority to include wiretaps of > INDIVIDUALS instead of LOCATIONS. > I don't get it. Help me out here-- how can this possibly be constitutional? I'm reading the Fourth Amendment to our honored Constitution of the United States, which proclaims [...] no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and *particularly describing the place to be searched*, and the persons or things to be seized. Are we just to strike out that emphasized phrase? What's going on here? Someone tell me I'm not just having a bad nightmare. Apologies if these are silly questions, -- Dave Wagner P.S. Do police really need a search warrant to wiretap cellular phones? From liberty at gate.net Fri Aug 2 09:00:07 1996 From: liberty at gate.net (Jim Ray) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 00:00:07 +0800 Subject: Dole does Bush-speak [Was:Re: A Libertine Question] Message-ID: <199608021242.IAA31580@osceola.gate.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Vinnie Moscaritolo wrote: >I think Bob Dole understands the needs for privacy rights for animals.. > >the following verbatim account of a segment of a Bob Dole appearance a week >or so ago at a cotton cooperative in Bakersfield, California [Verbatim Account elided.] Is anyone else wondering if Dole's handlers are dosing him with that "Halcyon" stuff that (partially) caused Bush to be such an easy mark for David Letterman et al.? We have a *severe* drug problem in this country... P.S. I tell you...one little mishap involving a little bit too much sugar, and now I'll _never_ get to live it down...:) Those wishing to attend my "Pennies For Perot" Party at Hooters in Cocowalk, at 6:00PM, on Saturday, August 3rd please e-mail me. P.P.S. Idea: Wiretap citizen-unit Ray for 47 hours and 59 minutes, give him one minute of non-surveilance (more than he deserves, actually) and then repeat process, with no pesky judges. Citizen-unit Ray is known to enjoy firearms, and has said "It's easier to make a bomb than it is to make a lasagna" in the past. He's also a known cardcarrying member of the Libertarian Party. JMR -- Who privately defends Mr. Sternlight's (or anyone's) right to cypherpunks list _membership_, while alternately being offended and amazed by the tone/number of his trolls. Try to imagine if _I_ posted that often...This kind of misunderstanding of Libertarians is usually caused by a subscription to Time, etc. -- rather than a careful listening to Libertarians themselves, but believe whatever you want. Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy [The Ministry is An equal opportunistic encryptor.] "Big business never pays a nickel in taxes, according to Ralph Nader, who represents a big consumer organization that never pays a nickel in taxes." -- Dave Barry Defeat the Duopoly! Vote "NOTA," not Slick/Dull in November. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray Coming soon, the "Pennies For Perot" page. Keep billionaires off welfare! ___________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh. iQCVAwUBMgH2k21lp8bpvW01AQHhnQQAlip0PV1m4Th0fJIlAog0TZOhyPghJ0qd q0mJ9SFG2XInX8CcgWX18s3ZXJtna6nRRcyqZHZEczffMs0jbA6pdzmqDvZTm3HW ToIcDgFb7MxV56chzLykGDwF4wdykGQNkLZH6xpk+2+1NjljjYObmsJO30S6XMp3 YQV1C3udlJY= =MKCK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pjb at ny.ubs.com Fri Aug 2 09:04:51 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (Paul J. Bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 00:04:51 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <9608021250.AA06412@sherry.ny.ubs.com> i, for one, and perhaps others on the list as well, would be interested in hearing what you mean when you say, "At&t, Microsoft, etc) who are ripping people off on a daily basis". for example, in what way is AT&T ripping people off? and what about microsoft? i have no use at all for microsoft, and, being a unix person i don't even use their stuff, but, i wonder how many people use word, excel, powerpoint, etc that they ripped-off from someone else, without paying microsoft what they are due for having developed the products. in general, i suspect that the rip-off is going the other way. after all, no one forces anyone buy from microsoft, AT&T, etc., but people do steal from them, whenever they have the opportunity. not everyone, of course, but certainly some do. these companies provide products and/or services that you are free to purchase or not, as you see fit or can afford. -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Thu Aug 1 18:31:50 1996 > X-Sender: ceridwyn at gonzo.wolfenet.com > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 22:13:56 -0700 > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > From: Cerridwyn Llewyellyn > Subject: Re: fbi, crypto, and defcon > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 1579 > > > >> Okay, so their boss is part of the law making process, subject to the checks > >> and balances that exist between the three branches of US government. They > >> are in a position to supply their boss with data and I am personally > >> impressed with their grasp of some of that data (it sounds to me like they > >> are telling their boss that hackers like the ones at Defcon are not the > >> problem). > > It was interesting how the Agent made the point that the FBI was there to > enforce laws, not make policy. Then his Boss's role in the law making process > was brought up, the Agent said "but any of you can do the same thing, you > all have a voice" etc etc. Then he refused to answer political questions > based on the fact that he was there as a representative of the FBI, failing > to see that his Boss is also a representative of the FBI when recommending > legislation. (Again, I realize he was "under orders" not to discuss it, I > wish he wouldn't try to justify it with obviously faulty logic.) > > > I think what they are really saying is that they would love to > >bust most hackers, but since they can't they might as well use some of > >them to catch the bigger fish. If they truly did believe in the laws they > >are supposed to uphold they wouldn't associate with hackers (who commit > >computer crimes) at all. > > A more cynical view is that they are there to protect some of the biggest > institutions of "organized crime" (ie: Congress, At&t, Microsoft, etc) who > are ripping people off on a daily basis from the other organizations who > refuse to play by their rules. > > //cerridwyn// > > > From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Fri Aug 2 09:12:47 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 00:12:47 +0800 Subject: Pipe bombs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3201FE3A.2274@vail.tivoli.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > Buy a section of metal water pipe ... And be *real, real careful* when screwing the second cap on the pipe. Brush any powder off the screw threads on the pipe with a fine-bristled brush. Also, watch out for static electricity. Use a flash bulb as a detonator. [ Just doing my part. ] ______c_____________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From frissell at panix.com Fri Aug 2 09:57:25 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 00:57:25 +0800 Subject: Jim Bell, stay out of Georgia.... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802135437.0086dfc4@panix.com> At 02:35 PM 8/1/96 EDT, E. ALLEN SMITH wrote: >>Anarchist charged with advocating government overthrow > >> JONESBORO, Ga. -- An 18-year-old self-styled anarchist who allegedly >> distributed a free, homemade pamphlet with anti-government rhetoric >> has been charged with advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government. Boy some people have all the luck. It is really rough to get the authorities to arrest you in circumstances where you can make them look absolutely ridiculous. They usually refuse to play. I suppose they busted this guy because they thought they could in the current atmosphere and they figured he's a schlubb who wouldn't give them any grief. It would not be a pleasant experience for the geheime staats polizei to try an arrest like this of someone who was capable of mounting a verbal and legal defense. "We Shall Overcome," "You copraphageous cretins," "Haven't you idiots read Cohen vs. California," "I think if you mental defectives read the Supremes in the Smith Act cases you'd find that I can advocate blowing you up all I like as long as I am not part of an immediate conspiracy to do so." Do you *like* carrying 300-pound people around? Why should I assist in my own oppression by walking? You Nazis are always trying to get the Jews to *walk* into the gas chambers." "You know you're going to have to let me loose sooner or later so why not make it sooner. It will be easier on everyone." "You know the DA is going to dismiss. This dog don't hunt. Won't you look like right fools." "It's going to be super fun to have you on the witness stand in the false arrest suit. It's going to be great to get the chance to cross-x you in public." "Boy, finally a chance to build up some prison time for my memoirs." "Great, I've really needed some quality time to catch up on my reading. I've still got 13 Aubrey/Maturin novels to finish." Repeat endlessly in a loud voice. Brian -- why do the cops do busts like this where they know they will be thrown out? DCF From frissell at panix.com Fri Aug 2 10:41:32 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:41:32 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802141356.00886864@panix.com> At 08:50 AM 8/2/96 EDT, Paul J. Bell wrote: >i, for one, and perhaps others on the list as well, would be interested in hearing >what you mean when you say, "At&t, Microsoft, etc) who are ripping people off on a >daily basis". I don't know about Microsoft but certainly AT&T long benefitted from local telephone monopolies that resulted in increased prices and slower innovation than would otherwise have been delivered. Even today, long distance carriers are licensed and there are substantial regulatory barriers to entry. International calls still are made under the control of an international cartel of governments that keep prices way above competitive levels. This benefits AT&T and the rest. Since it costs 2 cents a minute to *produce* a call to London from New York the 45 cents to $1 a minute charged represent an excessive price protected by the government regulated cartel status of telecoms even in the Age of Deregulation. AT&T should get honest work as should the others. Maybe when I get a 10 (25?) mbps cable connection to the nets, I'll start offering my neighbors net connections and LD phone service. I could make a pretty penny even savagely cutting the telco's markup. Lots of challenges ther but doable. DCF From WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com Fri Aug 2 10:41:43 1996 From: WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com (Deranged Mutant) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:41:43 +0800 Subject: More evidence that democracy is bunk Message-ID: <199608021417.KAA27112@unix.asb.com> On 1 Aug 96 at 15:34, E. ALLEN SMITH wrote: > And some people think democracies secure civil liberties... > -Allen And some people think polls are an accurate representation of anything. Chances are it's really a poll of people with telephones who just finished watching news reports about increased threats of terrorism. Depends on the exact questions that were asked of them, too... [..] > > As an antidote, 80 percent believe the federal government should have > > more power to investigate terrorists, but just 52 percent believe > > wiretaps should be expanded. Note that 'more power to investigate terrorists' is vague. Very vague, especially if the actual question was "should the federal government be given a greater ability to investigate terrorists?" (which is not the same as 'more power'... greater ability could be more funds or manpower, for instance.) Often time pollsters will introduce the question with a short paragraph or statistics explaining the situation... often these will cue someone in to be more likely to answer a certain way. If the pollster says "with the increase in terrorist activisties in the United States and new communications technologies, should the federal government..." a respondant will be more likely to agree that the gov't should have more power. > > Three out of five said they still favor giving the government more > > power even if that meant groups unrelated to terrorism were > > investigated, too. That's vague too. What was the question: "...even if it meant a charity that was exploited by a terrorist group was investigated" or a "political group which a suspected terrorist belonged too" etc.? > > Even if it cost more, nearly nine out of 10 people surveyed want > > more security checkpoints, guards and metal detectors -- and > > they'd be willing to wait longer in lines -- at public events. If they were asked if they minded random searches of their bags and belongings or required to carry photo-ID wherever they went, to be presented on demand, would they still be willing? Rob --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. From wb8foz at nrk.com Fri Aug 2 10:41:46 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:41:46 +0800 Subject: Tolerance Message-ID: <199608021412.KAA02133@nrk.com> At 14:46 8/1/96, Chris Adams wrote: >Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there, especially >the "defend to the death" types: How many of you defended Mr. >Sternlight's recent membership? Why should I? Was his membership under attack by the body? I merely predicted how he would act. In the words of Click&Clack, that's not rocket science. Almost anyone who has spent anytime on Usenet knows, for example, that SternFUD will keep dragging sci.crypt back in, and he will engage in personal slams, while claiming he is above same. In the words of a net attorney I respect, SternFud is an intellectual fraud. [BTW, if you caught my post on same, he seems to regarded as a buffoon & joke even within the inner circles of the Intelligence Community...] But I AM glad he left. Now, I do not have to feel quezyness over agreeing (even on but one issue...) with Perry. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com Fri Aug 2 10:41:51 1996 From: WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com (Deranged Mutant) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:41:51 +0800 Subject: Keeping America safe from Soy Milk Message-ID: <199608021417.KAA27115@unix.asb.com> On 1 Aug 96 at 14:35, E. ALLEN SMITH forwarded: > > JONESBORO, Ga. -- An 18-year-old self-styled anarchist who allegedly > > distributed a free, homemade pamphlet with anti-government rhetoric > > has been charged with advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government. > [...] > > The pamphlet was laced with with anti-police cartoons, obscenities, > > and anarchist slogans. The one overt reference to violence was an > > illustration of a "Molotov cocktail" on the same sheet with a recipe > > for "soy milk" made from water-soaked soybeans, sugar and vanilla and > > strained through a T-shirt. Nuff said. Rob --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. From rsalz at osf.org Fri Aug 2 10:58:28 1996 From: rsalz at osf.org (Rich Salz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:58:28 +0800 Subject: My crypto-export URL was in the wrong place Message-ID: <9608021433.AA26186@sulphur.osf.org> I typo'd on the URL. http://www.osf.org/~rsalz/crypto-export.html Sorry for any confusion. From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 2 11:09:57 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 02:09:57 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote: > We require people who have syphilis to divulge who their sex > partners were... > > We require property owners...to install their septic tanks... > [to] estop them from contaminating the neighbor's well... > > So why should we be terribly upset about an ordinance which > makes it illegal to operate a residential kitchen...in a city > park or a city sidewalk? Alan's analogies(?) are not parallel. In his syphilis example, the requirement exists so that sex partners can be warned that they may have contracted the disease. A parallel requirement might be that feeding programs for street people would have to divulge that the food was prepared in uninspected home kitchens. In his second case, you are simply dealing with the property rights of adjacent land owners. The case for regulation of septic tanks is that the contamination from absent or improperly installed tanks does not reveal itself as would, say, burning toxic waste in the back yard. I find it amusing that the law is supposedly so concerned with food purity for the "homeless." Hang out near a fast-food place sometime and watch the street people dumpster dive for the half-eaten remains of other people's Big Macs. That is the true alternative to volunteer feeding programs. (That, or getting a job.) The truth is that local officials are perverting the health codes to harass these operations, not to "protect the homeless." At it's core, it is a hypocritical abuse of power, not unlike the invocation of the Four Horseman to keep strong crypto out of the hands of average Americans. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Fri Aug 2 11:42:54 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 02:42:54 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802152315.0069de48@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Jim Choate argued: >As long as they have a license to operate a food dispencing facility (in >other words they are certifying they are aware of the correct processes for >such operations) then nobody should have the right to interfere with their >operation unless with probable cause (ie proof of danger such as bad weenies >in their hot dogs). This would not apply to individuals or families making >such food in the same place for their own and NOT public consumption. I believe the issue with Food Not Bombs is they didn't get the appropriate permits, etc, or were denied them, or something. However, I disagree with you on this point. I think they shouldn't be required to obtain a license, but everyone whom they serve food to should know that they don't have such a license. This would equal informed consent. Also, with Food Not Bombs, many of the people that the food is being served to is also involved in cooking, distributing food, and cleaning up. I've been told it's exactly like a big picnic, except for anyone is invited to help and/or eat. From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 2 11:50:09 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 02:50:09 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608021118.GAA09469@einstein> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > If the person joining the public list is warned that the list > owner reserves that right [to kick people off] I would agree. > It would require such a warning to be issued at the time the > person received their notification of successful joining. If > that warning is not present and the list is advertised as > PUBLIC then NO, not even the list operator can ethicaly refuse > membership to anyone for any reason other than criminal > activity by a member. Otherwise it isn't public. Here I have to respectfully disagree, totally, with Jim. One does not have to "reserve" one's rights. They are inherent and my be exercised pretty much at will (I say "pretty much" because there are situations where "implied contract" applies). A restaurant or bookstore is a public place in that it is open to the public. Nevertheless, without first "reserving the right" to do so, the owners may tell you to leave if they don't like the way you sound, look or smell. Criminal activity is not required legally nor ethically. Your ejection may, in fact, be totally arbitrary. I don't see a privately maintained, "public" list as being philosophically any different. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From brock at well.com Fri Aug 2 12:07:07 1996 From: brock at well.com (Brock N. Meeks) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:07:07 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... In-Reply-To: <199608012258.PAA29066@ohio.chromatic.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Ernest Hua wrote: > Louis Freeh is now asking the Congress for $2 billion to fund > Digital Telephony. Yes, that is FOUR TIMES what he said it > would cost the taxpayers to give up their own privacy. Score > one for the cynics who said $500 million was not enough. I broke the story about how much Digital Telephony would *really* cost in CyberWire Dispatch more than two years ago. The price tag in my piece: "... at least $2 billion..." In that Dispatch I wrote that the Clinton White House had made the decision to support the bill based on a flawed cost/benefit analysis study the FBI had done. --Brock From gkuzmo at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 2 12:10:13 1996 From: gkuzmo at ix.netcom.com (George Kuzmowycz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:10:13 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy Message-ID: <199608021611.JAA13044@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> The company I work for has set up a committee to draft a security policy involving, among other things, e-mail. Since I'm responsible for our networking and e-mail, I'm part of this group. Unfortunately, I'm outnumbered by legal, auditing and HR types who, basically, want to have access to everything. I am aware that there's a line of thinking which holds that what you do or say on company time, using company equipment is the company's business. I do not subscribe to this line of thinking, and believe that employees expect a "zone of privacy" in which their telephone calls will not be listened to and their e-mail will not be read or monitored. I am also aware that recent court cases have not supported this "zone of privacy" and have pretty much held that the employer can do whatever it wants with e-mail. What I want out of this process is to keep myself and my staff out of this business. As a practical matter, I'm sure the company could bring in a hired gun to do whatever they want; since our e-mail system does not easily support strong crypto, it's all there for the taking. In an ideal world, the rest of the group would agree with me and say "Yup, we have no business reading e-mail." Since that's not likely, I'm looking for examples of "privacy-friendly" corporate policies that I can put on the table in our meetings, and end up with a minority report. -gk- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 12:12:41 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:12:41 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) Message-ID: <199608021614.LAA10026@einstein> Forwarded message: > From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca > Date: Fri, 02 Aug 96 11:19:52 EST > Subject: RE: Tolerance (fwd) > > Jim Choate wrote: > >Libertarian views should be basicaly if it doesn't harm anothers person or > >property without their prior consent then it should be legal and >permissible. > > It is important to consider cultural factors when deciding how groups will react > to differing standards of legal and permissible actions. For example, a brief > summary of the basic tenets held by some different European cultures are given > below: > > British: Everything is permitted, unless it is forbidden. > German: Everything is forbidden, unless it is permitted. > France: Everything is permitted, especially if it is forbidden. > Culture has nothing to do with inherent civil liberities, you have them simply for being alive. People create social contracts to limit those rights. You have the cart before the horse. Jim Choate From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Fri Aug 2 12:14:22 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:14:22 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) Message-ID: <9607028390.AA839009975@smtplink.alis.ca> Jim Choate wrote: >Libertarian views should be basicaly if it doesn't harm anothers person or >property without their prior consent then it should be legal and >permissible. It is important to consider cultural factors when deciding how groups will react to differing standards of legal and permissible actions. For example, a brief summary of the basic tenets held by some different European cultures are given below: British: Everything is permitted, unless it is forbidden. German: Everything is forbidden, unless it is permitted. France: Everything is permitted, especially if it is forbidden. Au revoir, James From artichoke at null.dev.com Fri Aug 2 12:16:23 1996 From: artichoke at null.dev.com (artichoke bill) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:16:23 +0800 Subject: privacy is a SMOKESCREEN. Message-ID: <3202307A.1DF3@null.dev.com> from eff: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: ALERT: Congress Rushing to Enact Anti-Privacy Bill - Call Congress NOW! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **** Last minute update **** Just before ye editor was about to send this issue out, reports are filtering in that negotiations on the bill that is the subject of the alert below, have collapsed. CNN reports: "Key members of the Senate blamed House conservatives for the failure, saying they had insisted on linking proposed new wiretapping authority for the FBI to an expansion of privacy laws." CNN quotes Rep. Charles Schumer (D-NY) as saying that House Republican leaders "have come up with this smokescreen called privacy". You may wish to let Rep. Schumer know how you feel about your right to privacy being labelled "a smokescreen": 9th Dist. NY Schumer, Charles E. (D) 1-202-225-6616 (voice), 1-202-225-4183 (fax) The full text of the CNN article is available at: http://www.cnn.com/US/9608/01/wh.terror.bill/index.html The article also reports that "lawmakers said there is hope for agreement after the month long" Congressional recess beginning at the end of this week. THIS MEANS THAT THE ALERT BELOW IS STILL URGENT, and still important. We just have a short breathing space now. From pjb at ny.ubs.com Fri Aug 2 12:25:21 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (Paul J. Bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:25:21 +0800 Subject: Blurring the Chains of Causation Message-ID: <9608021314.AA06420@sherry.ny.ubs.com> in my view the ultimate foolishness of this sort was bringing Cessna Aircraft to it's knees by sueing them on behalf of people who crashed because of their inability to handle the airplane in the conditions into which they put themselves. -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Thu Aug 1 18:32:44 1996 > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 10:39:12 -0700 > X-Sender: tcmay at mail.got.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) > Subject: Blurring the Chains of Causation > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 4559 > > > An unusual thread name, "Blurring the Chains of Causation." > > What I mean is this: > > - the U.S. legal system has been blurring, or confusing, the chain of > cause-and-effect in crimes > > - Example: allowing suits by insurance companies and states against tobacco > companies. A smoker gets cancer by his actions, and it used to be that this > was his action, his responsibility. Now, we hold tobacco companies liable, > and perhaps will someday hold executives of these companies criminally > liable. (This for a product which is not illegal, mind you.) > > (There are a bunch of related examples. "Civil liability" is a major way > this blurring is happening. Gun manufacturers being sued for crimes > committed with their guns, ladder makers sued by the families of criminals > who leaned ladders up against electrified fences, and so on. How long > before a bookstore is sued for "allowing" a book to be bought by someone > who later is "inspired" to commit a crime--actually, John Grisham ("The > Firm") is involved in a lawsuit against Oliver Stone for his film, "Natural > Born Killers," which Grisham claims "inspired" a murder. This has got to > stop, in my opinion.) > > - "They made me do it" defenses. Hostess Twinkies are implicated in the > brutal murder of San Francisco's mayor and a city councilman. Childhood > abuse is exculpatory in other cases. Psychobabblers blather about what > caused people to behave as they did. A mass murderer says pornography made > him kill 25 women. A lawyer claims his client's son committed suicide after > listening to heavy metal music. And so it goes. > > This blurring has links to cryptography, bomb-making instructions on the > Net, availability of porn on the Net, and many other things. > > To cut to the chase: > > - a librarian who "allows" a person to check out "The Anarchist Cookbook" > is *not* causing a crime, though much of the rhetoric one hears is > otherwise. > > - the _author_ of that book (Powell, allegedly) is *also* not causing a crime. > > - the _publishers_ of that book (Lyle Stuart, as I recall--my copy is not > handy) also have not committed any crime > > To make things clear, some of the language being proposed in the > rush-to-law about anti-terrorism, wiretapping, anti-encryption, etc. As > Sen. Feinstein puts it, "We hope we can wrap up the repeal of the Bill of > Rights and have it on President Clinton's desk before the close of the > Olympics on Sunday." :-( > > - if I _advocate_ strong crytography, avoidance of taxes, undermining of > government power, crypto anarchy, etc., I have not committed any crime > (Caveat: advocating the violent overthrow of the U.S. government apparently > is a crime, as are certain forms of conspiracy, a la RICO, tax evasion, > etc.) > > - if I _use_ strong cryptography, I have not committed any crime, ipso > facto, nor am I necessarily conspiring to commit any crime > > And so on. > > Many of the proposed restrictions seek to further blur this chain of > causation, by making someone who provides access to materials which _may_ > later be used in a crime, or which may "inspire" someone to crime, a kind > of criminal. > > The trend picked up steam with the "deep pockets" precedents in the 70s > (*), was fed by the blame-passing psychobabble of the same decade, and has > now reached its present state by a willingness of the courts to hear such > cases. > > People who actually commit real crimes are the criminals, not those who > sold them Hostess Twinkies without first checking their blood sugar level. > Not those who let a library patron look at a "dangerous" book. And not > those who provided strong cryptographic tools which _might_ be used by > terrorists, pedophiles, and money launderers. > > --Tim May > > (* "deep pockets" -- If there are N parties in a lawsuit, and one of them > shares only 5% of the (putative) blame but has 95% of the overall assets, > go after the party with the "deepest pockets." This forced Cessna and > Piper, the leading light aircraft firms at one time, to stop selling light > aircraft. The example with Oliver Stone being sued is a clear case of > this.) > > Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! > We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." > > > > > From pjb at ny.ubs.com Fri Aug 2 12:37:42 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (Paul J. Bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:37:42 +0800 Subject: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? Message-ID: <9608021339.AA06431@sherry.ny.ubs.com> actually, the IDEA key is 128 bits. -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Fri Aug 2 03:06:24 1996 > X-Sender: gcg at mail.pb.net > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 22:16:06 -0400 > To: jim at ACM.ORG > From: "Geoffrey C. Grabow" > Subject: Re: Is 1024-bit PGP key enough? > Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 1454 > > At 15:38 08/01/96 PDT, Jim Gillogly wrote: > > > >Somebody says: > >>> Is security provided by 1024-bit PGP key sufficient against most powerful > >>> computers that are available today? Say if smoe organization spent 10 > >>> billions of dollars on a cracking machine, would it be possible to crack > >>> the keys in reasonable time? > > > >Derek Atkins responds with some useful and authoritative > >information -- thanks. > > > Also, remember that although the PGP key is 1024 bits, it generates a much > smaller IDEA key with 56 bits (I think... anyone?). The 56 bit key is > vunerable to that $1 mil mystery machine that the NSA may or may not have. > > G.C.G. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > | Geoffrey C. Grabow | Great people talk about ideas. | > | Oyster Bay, New York | Average people talk about things. | > | gcg at pb.net | Small people talk about people. | > |----------------------------------------------------------------------| > | PGP 2.6.2 public key available at http://www.pb.net/~wizard | > | and on a plethora of key servers around the world. | > |----------------------------------------------------------------------| > | That which does not kill us, makes us stranger. - Trevor Goodchild | > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 12:38:35 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:38:35 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608021128.GAA09487@einstein> Message-ID: << 9th & 10th AMendments to the Conmstitution >> Cute, you left out the Third. We are referring to the Sovereign power of the State of Washington to allocate to the municipality of Seattle, a general Police Power to maintain the Peace. Every lawyer seems to think that Seattle has the power to forbid people from using sidewalks as latrines and kitchen sinks. I am in bed with the government, so I have better knowledge than most of the people on this list, about how bad it is. Nonetheless, I recall the aphorism from the Talmud: "Pray for the health of the government, lest the people eat other alive". If someone wants to dress shabbily, go ahead, I'm sure you're making a powerful and meaningful statement of your devotion to liberty. I don't recall saying otherwise. I might secretly recall the TRUE and OVERWHELMING poverty I've seen in the Third World, which didn't prevent the barely-fed mothers from assuring that their kid's third-hand, threadbare school uniforms were nevertheless clean and pressed. Everyone has different standards of pride. Some people don't EVER say "please", or "thank you". Suit yourself. If you want to walk into the public library after a six-month moratorium on bathing - well, the courts are divided on this, but _I_ stand for the proposition that this is an assault on the other patrons and I will lobby _my_ city councilman for there to be rules against it. If you want to blast your Walkman into your own ear through an earphone, go ahead, blow your hearing away, perhaps (insh'allah) it will somehow operate to prevent you from depositing your genes into the next generation. But if you want to play your boombox loud near me, make damn sure you do it behind soundproof walls. Where I live, the cops will respond to that kind of complaint and shut down the nuisance, with nightsticks if need be (in my little rural area, it's seldom necessary). Maybe you California or NYC folks don't have police forces that will mitigate nuisances. Enjoy your progressive radical-chic neighborhood, folks. From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 12:45:19 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:45:19 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608021218.HAA09568@einstein> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > to yourself. The burden of proof rests on the individual to prove that such > actions by a third party are a public nuisance. Bzzt, wrong anser. Thanks for playing. A state and it's political subdivisions does have the power to enact an ordinance DEFINING what constitutes a public nuisance. They need merely protect constitutionally-protected rights. The City of Seattle may not define the act of disseminating anonymous pamphlets as a nuisance. They may define the act of dissemination by throwing them out the window of a moving vehicle, as a nuisance. YOu are disconnected from reality. I am not going to waste further keystrokes on this topic. My side already controls the electoral college on this one. It's not my problem. From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Fri Aug 2 12:48:54 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 03:48:54 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA In-Reply-To: <32015CE7.3EF0@vail.tivoli.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Mike McNally wrote: > > Marijuana is the match, > Heroin is the fuse, > And LSD is the BOMB. Wasn't that Radioactive Goldfish? IP is the Flame, TCP is the Fuse, HTTP is the Bomb --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From adam at homeport.org Fri Aug 2 13:01:04 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 04:01:04 +0800 Subject: FPGAs and Heat (Re: Paranoid Musings) In-Reply-To: <199608011848.LAA11828@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608021711.MAA01770@homeport.org> Mike Duvos wrote: | That's one of the things that killed Thinking Machines. It turned out [...] | At the time Thinking Machines went under, Seymour Cray had a big contract Just a nit, but Thinking Machines is still in business, and has had their first few profitable quarters. www.think.com Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From jseiger at cdt.org Fri Aug 2 13:04:08 1996 From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 04:04:08 +0800 Subject: More on the latest Surveillance Bill... Message-ID: The outline below is from a document produced by the House Republican Conference. It is ONLY A SUMMARY of the proposed bill and is NOT actual legislation. No one I have spoken with has seen any specific legislative language yet. The outline is confusing on several points, particularly the "FBI DIGITAL TELEPHONY" Section, which says: "The bill authorizes the FBI to use enhanced telephone technology to investigate suspected terrorist activity. Funding for equipment purchase was provided in the 1996 omnibus appropriations measure enacted earlier this year." The first sentence above is not at all clear, and probably won't be until we can get our hands on the actual text of the bill. It could be additional wiretap authority (ie, roving wiretaps), or it could be nothing. As far as the funding goes, the "1996 omnibus appropriations measure" DID NOT contain funding for implementation of the law - but it did appropriate $37 million to cover new equipment for the FBI. The rest looks like it is a scaled back version of a measure the Administration and members of Congress were pushing earlier this week, but the scope of the new bill depends a lot on what the actual text says. I will post additional information as soon as I get it. Jonah -- Bipartisan Antiterrorism Initiative HR__ Committee on the Judiciary No Report Filed To Be Introduced Floor Situation: The House is scheduled to consider HR__ on Friday August 2, 1996. On Thursday August 1, the Rules Committee granted a rule to allow the bill to be considered under suspension of the rules. It is debatable for 40 minutes, may not be amended, and requires a two-thirds vote for passage. Summary: HR__ includes several bipartisan initiatives intended to bolster federal efforts to combat domestic terrorism in addition to those already enacted earlier this year as part of the 1996 Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (P.L. 104-132). The bill contains the following counter-terrorism provisions: Aviation SECURITY MEASURES: The bill enables domestic airports to aggressively search for and prevent explosives from causing destruction and harm to individuals or property through enhanced explosive detection procedures, baggage and passenger screening, and FBI authority to improve airport security training and standards to ensure that provisions of the 1990 Aviation Security Act (P.L 101-604) are implemented expeditiously. Specifically, the bill (1) requires the FAA to implement increased explosives section methods immediately, (2) strengthen the level of training and expertise possessed by security personnel who are assigned to domestic airports, (3) allows airports to use available funding to reinforce such training for security personnel, and (4) extends criminal background requirements to include a greater number of airport employees. IMPLEMENTATION OF EXISTING ANTI-TERRORISM LAWS: The bill urges implementation of provisions enacted in the 1996 Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (P.L. 104-132), such as designating and freezing the assets of foreign terrorist organizations and implementing expedited removal procedures for aliens convicted of a crime. BIPARTISAN "BLUE RIBBON" COMMISSION: The bill establishes a special commission to review all aspects of U.S. anti-terrorism policy and make legislative recommendations about methods to most effectively establish a long-term defense against terrorist threats, including enhancing the nation's human intelligence capabilities. PRIVACY ACT AMENDMENTS: The bill includes provisions which grant a cause of action against the U.S. if in the course of a wiretap investigation damaging information is willfully disclosed to the detriment of an innocent party by the federal government. The cause of action includes monetary damages to the plaintiff if a favorable decision is rendered in federal court. EXPLOSIVES STUDY: The bill authorizes a study on black and smokeless powder by an independent agency selected by the National Institute of Justice. FEDERAL RACKETEERING STATUTE CRIMES: The bill permits federal prosecutors to deem those acts determined to be terrorist in nature as substantial enough to invoke criminal prosecution under existing criminal racketeering (RICO) statutes. FBI DIGITAL TELEPHONY: The bill authorizes the FBI to use enhanced telephone technology to investigate suspected terrorist activity. Funding for equipment purchase was provided in the 1996 omnibus appropriations measure enacted earlier this year. -- ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE CONTINUES TO THE SUPREME COURT ** It's not too late to be a part of history -- Join the Lawsuit -- -- Jonah Seiger, Policy Analyst Center for Democracy and Technology 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20006 PGP Key via finger (v) +1.202.637.9800 http://www.cdt.org/ (f) +1.202.637.0968 http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/ From svmcguir at syr.edu Fri Aug 2 13:06:29 1996 From: svmcguir at syr.edu (Scott McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 04:06:29 +0800 Subject: Information gathering by news servers Message-ID: How much information about what someone reads can be gathered by a news server? Is there an anonymous way to read a public news server, or would a server have to be set up intentionally to allow anonymous reading? Scott From JeanPaul.Kroepfli at ns.fnet.fr Fri Aug 2 13:12:20 1996 From: JeanPaul.Kroepfli at ns.fnet.fr (Jean-Paul Kroepfli) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 04:12:20 +0800 Subject: Tao Renji Public Key system Message-ID: <01BB80A1.2447DD00@JPKroepsli.S-IP.EUnet.fr> Dear Bruce, I was testing the Raike's Public Key software, when I remembered a section of your excellent book. In Applied Cryptography, second edition, section 19.10 (page 482) you present the Renji's work about a public key algorithme based on finite automata. Where could we found the FAPKC1 and FAPKC2 algorithms, their implementations, and executable versions (you mention an Intel486 test). Many thanks, With kindest regards Jean-Paul ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Jean-Paul et Micheline Kroepfli (our son: Nicolas and daughter: Celine) eMail: JeanPaul.Kroepfli at utopia.fnet.fr Also Compuserve and MSNetwork Phone: +33 81 55 52 59 (F) PostMail: F-25640 Breconchaux (France) or: +41 21 843 27 36 (CH) or: CP 138, CH-1337 Vallorbe Fax: +33 81 55 52 62 (Switzerland) Zephyr(r) : InterNet Communication and Commerce, Security and Cryptography consulting PGP Fingerprint : 19 FB 67 EA 20 70 53 89 AF B2 5C 7F 02 1F CA 8F "The InterNet is the most open standard since air for breathing" From conrad at walton.com Fri Aug 2 13:43:04 1996 From: conrad at walton.com (Conrad Walton) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 04:43:04 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: <1373144101-347077@industrial-artworks.com> > >and everyplace else all the news.answers FAQs are stored. What, precisely, is >an acid bomb? Also note the standard blame-the-Internet (not, say, increased >irritation with government after the Republicans failed to reduce it) >rhetoric. i'm not exactly sure what an acid bomb is, but according to my book, The Anarchist Cookbook, that I bought in 1972 (was the internet around back then?), there is a compound called "picric acid" that is "more powerful than TNT, but has some disadvantages". if you'd like the recipe, I'll be more than happy to mail you it through the US Postal system. Wouldn't want to give the Internet any more of a bad name for distributing subversive materials. There is also instructions on using an inverted vial of sulpheric acid, that will then eat thu the stopper at the top (bottom) of the vial. when the acid makes it thru, then is mixes with Potassium Chloride and causes a small explosion which sets off the larger explosion in the dynomite packed around it. just thot you'd like to know. thanks, conrad __________I_N_D_U_S_T_R_I_A_L___A_R_T_W_O_R_K_S__________ Conrad Walton http://www.industrial-artworks.com/ POB 2815, El Segundo, CA 90245 1-310-640-3365 --------------------------------------------------------- From jseiger at cdt.org Fri Aug 2 14:00:22 1996 From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:00:22 +0800 Subject: URGENT: Surveillance Bill Gets New Life - House Vote lLikely TODAY! Message-ID: (please forward where appropriate) It's not over yet.... The House has scheduled a vote on "suspension" for a 'counter-terrorism' bill TODAY (Friday). Despite media reports that the negotiations had stalled out, house Republicans have apparently worked out their differences and are set to vote on the bill today. The Senate may or may not vote on the measure on Saturday. No one I've talked to knows for sure what's in the bill, though I have heard that there are no encryption provisions and that some of the wiretap proposals have been scaled back. I will post details as I get them. In the mean time, keep those calls coming into Congress. Jonah ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE CONTINUES TO THE SUPREME COURT ** It's not too late to be a part of history -- Join the Lawsuit -- -- Jonah Seiger, Policy Analyst Center for Democracy and Technology 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20006 PGP Key via finger (v) +1.202.637.9800 http://www.cdt.org/ (f) +1.202.637.0968 http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/ From mpd at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 14:00:23 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:00:23 +0800 Subject: FPGAs and Heat (Re: Paranoid Musings) In-Reply-To: <199608021711.MAA01770@homeport.org> Message-ID: <199608021708.KAA21925@netcom6.netcom.com> Adam Shostack wrote: > | That's one of the things that killed Thinking Machines. It turned out > [...] > | At the time Thinking Machines went under, Seymour Cray had a big contract > > Just a nit, but Thinking Machines is still in business, and has > had their first few profitable quarters. www.think.com The current Thinking Machines is a software firm, and Daniel Hillis is no longer amongst the top management. The name lives on, but the business of designing, building, and selling exotic supercomputers is kaput. Not an uncommon story in the computer business. Even Control Data Corporation still exists in a transmogrified form, although their mainframe business went up in smoke ages ago. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 2 14:07:05 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:07:05 +0800 Subject: Licensing, Permits, and Freedom Message-ID: At 3:23 PM 8/2/96, Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: >Jim Choate argued: > >>As long as they have a license to operate a food dispencing facility (in >>other words they are certifying they are aware of the correct processes for >>such operations) then nobody should have the right to interfere with their >>operation unless with probable cause (ie proof of danger such as bad weenies >>in their hot dogs). This would not apply to individuals or families making >>such food in the same place for their own and NOT public consumption. > >I believe the issue with Food Not Bombs is they didn't get the appropriate >permits, etc, or were denied them, or something. However, I disagree with >you on this point. I think they shouldn't be required to obtain a license, >but everyone whom they serve food to should know that they don't have such a >license. This would equal informed consent. Also, with Food Not Bombs, many >of the people that the food is being served to is also involved in cooking, >distributing food, and cleaning up. I've been told it's exactly like a big >picnic, except for anyone is invited to help and/or eat. It was in fact "Food Not Bombs" which I was referring to in my post a few days ago. My point to the City Council was one of inconsistency (picnic groups not similarly hassled). Also, the use of "permits" to harass/muzzle a group. "Permits" are often used to stop speech and acts which are not considered acceptable. Drawing on my own community for an example, Santa Cruz tried to regulate palm readers, astrologers, mystics, and seers. This eventually fell apart, possibly when the implications became clear to the bureaucrats (the future was already clear to the Cassandras, but nobody believed them). My "Licensed Ontologist" line in my .sig was added during one of the debates about the claimed need to license and regulate persons in various professions. (There are of course the usual other examples, where job unions and cartels stop "outsiders" from participating. Often for ostensibly good reasons, but "guilds" nonetheless. The implications of crypto anarchy for these guilds are left as exercises for the student.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From farber at central.cis.upenn.edu Fri Aug 2 14:12:55 1996 From: farber at central.cis.upenn.edu (Dave Farber) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:12:55 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802172157.0072be14@linc.cis.upenn.edu> And I testified in front of the House that their estimate was grossly understated. I think it is more like 4-5 Billion . I called it the Software Full Employment Act of 94. (copy of testimony available). djf At 08:52 AM 8/2/96 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote: > >On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Ernest Hua wrote: > >> Louis Freeh is now asking the Congress for $2 billion to fund >> Digital Telephony. Yes, that is FOUR TIMES what he said it >> would cost the taxpayers to give up their own privacy. Score >> one for the cynics who said $500 million was not enough. > >I broke the story about how much Digital Telephony would *really* cost in >CyberWire Dispatch more than two years ago. The price tag in my piece: >"... at least $2 billion..." In that Dispatch I wrote that the Clinton >White House had made the decision to support the bill based on a flawed >cost/benefit analysis study the FBI had done. > >--Brock > > From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 2 14:34:18 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:34:18 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software Message-ID: <199608021800.LAA10722@toad.com> At 02:16 PM 7/31/96 -0700, Tom Weinstein wrote: >The only thing they can revoke is their permission to provide it for >download over the internet. They can't revoke our permission to sell >it in stores or via snail mail. They _could_ refuse to give export permission for new RC4/40 versions, and threaten prosecution if it's placed on the Internet. It would be highly bogus, of course, but that's one of the "benefits" of using selective enforcement and having the export strength limitations be an individual-case-basis rather than a defined law they can be held to. Tim wrote: > Actually approving of disapproving a piece of software for sale > to U.S. citizens is not currently possible. Sure. The Commerce Klaus of the Constitution lets them do it if they want to, though that required Congressional cooperation. TRUST NO ONE! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 2 14:36:45 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:36:45 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" Message-ID: <199608021800.LAA10727@toad.com> >On Cyperpunks recently, Tim May wrote: > >>The Latin maxim "And who shall guard the guardians?" has some relevance to >>the headlong rush into converting the U.S. into even more of a security >>state than it is now. The English-Only bill just passed in the House bans the use of non-English languages by government officials. Does Tim's sudden avoidance of the Latin mean that _he_'s the Fed?? At 02:57 PM 7/31/96 -0700, Martin Minow wrote: >I would suspect that a Baysian analysis >would indicate that the risk of holding (and losing) a key is >greater than the risk of not holding (and needing) a key. Cui bono? Or, in this case, risk to _whom_? The damage from losing a key is done to the key's owner, who's a mere Subject, while the dangers of needing a key that one doesn't have are interference with the Custodians doing the jobs they want to do. Sounds like a no-brainer, from the Government's viewpoint. TRUST NO ONE! From briant at atlantic.net Fri Aug 2 14:40:15 1996 From: briant at atlantic.net (Brian T Hancher) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:40:15 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps Message-ID: <199608021149.LAA24441@rio.atlantic.net> >P.S. Do police really need a search warrant to wiretap cellular phones? It is my understanding that police need a warrant to tap *cellular* phones, but not *wireless* phones. One should understand that monitoring cellular traffic is *much* more difficult than tapping a conventional phone, because as the user moves around in the service area the phone switches to different repeaters, often several times during a conversation. I am curious as to the language of the proposed law, as it is also my understanding that the government already has the (technical) means to monitor cellular traffic (but it requires a warrant, just like tapping a regular phone). Brian T. Hancher http://rio.atlantic.net/~briant briant at ocala.com briant at atlantic.net Brian.Hancher at lmi.fdles.state.fl.us From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 2 14:55:39 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:55:39 +0800 Subject: SECURITY WARNING - D0 N0T D0WN0AD "New Clinton Administration Ping Policy" Message-ID: <199608021800.LAA10715@toad.com> WARNING! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THE E-MAIL MESSAGE LABELED "New Clinton Administration Ping Policy" IT C0NTAINS EVIDENCE 0F SECURITY VI0LATIONS IN THE HEADERS AND D0WNLOADING IT RISKS C0NTAMINATION 0F Y0UR MACHINE: > X-Authentication-Warning: server1.chromatic.com: hua owned process doing -bs > X-Authentication-Warning: server1.chromatic.com: Host hua at localhost didn't use HELO protocol > Return-Path: FURTHERMORE, IT IS DISTRIBUTED BY THE THE CYPHERPUNKS-ERRORS LIST, AN 0RGANIZATION KN0WN T0 HAVE BR0KEN US EXP0RT-GRADE SECURITY AND APPARENTLY LED BY THE KN0WN FEL0N ``KLAUS'' AND AN ANARCHIST W00DW0RKER BRIEFLY SUSPECTED IN THE UNAB0MBER CASE. TRUST NO ONE! From umwalber at cc.UManitoba.CA Fri Aug 2 14:55:41 1996 From: umwalber at cc.UManitoba.CA (Sean Walberg) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 05:55:41 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA In-Reply-To: <1373144101-347077@industrial-artworks.com> Message-ID: I remember seeing an item on TV that had mentioned an acid bomb (it was a news report about a public access TV show that was showing people how to make bombs). In this example, some common chemicals were mixed together, tightly closed, and moments later an explosion occured. They never said the chemicals, for all I know it could have been lemon juice and baking soda in a sealed container, a la Dry Ice bomb... It didn't look like a bomb of mass destruction, more of a loud bang and a smallish explosion... Sean On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Conrad Walton wrote: > >and everyplace else all the news.answers FAQs are stored. What, precisely, is > >an acid bomb? Also note the standard blame-the-Internet (not, say, increased > >irritation with government after the Republicans failed to reduce it) > >rhetoric. > > i'm not exactly sure what an acid bomb is, but according to my book, The > Anarchist Cookbook, that I bought in 1972 (was the internet around back > then?), there is a compound called "picric acid" that is "more powerful > than TNT, but has some disadvantages". ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sean Walberg umwalber at cc.umanitoba.ca The Web Guy http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umwalber UNIX Group, U. of Manitoba PGP Key Available from Servers From markm at voicenet.com Fri Aug 2 15:00:47 1996 From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:00:47 +0800 Subject: Information gathering by news servers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Scott McGuire wrote: > How much information about what someone reads can be gathered > by a news server? Is there an anonymous way to read a public > news server, or would a server have to be set up intentionally > to allow anonymous reading? It depends on how much logging the news server software does. For INN, it logs the hostname of every client that invokes the "group" command. This means that if you are on a machine that uses identd or on a SLIP/PPP account, it is possible to also find out the complete email address. I suppose hacking the news software could allow a news admin to find out every article you read, but the log would be very large. The best way to read news anonymously is to either get an anonymous shell account that has a full news feed, or get an account on a trusted NNTP server. An NNTP server could be setup to not log at all by commenting out all the calls to syslog(). - -- Mark PGP encrypted mail prefered Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348 http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMgJHT7Zc+sv5siulAQHZ8gP+NywhqrmlOls1ibbpdXac0qp7/LacT+2j UXiBare4Lk0qOJAM9UUAc+xbyzxAugdWwLAyo2NW8Bi5ZK1QojFvCKvHcQzWYNA6 baz7Qmy9x7Beup6HG+7M/bOmGonjml+ZSXbWAFMuSmItd5V2vZRmqBGdu8oglY7m MiGmXLaLkFw= =To5D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Fri Aug 2 15:23:25 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:23:25 +0800 Subject: Courtesy, Clubs and Clinton Message-ID: <9607028390.AA839024095@smtplink.alis.ca> Excerpt from http://www.msnbc.com/news/21324.asp Clinton's golf war Teed-off clubbers grumble president plays too slow, disrupts things Congressional Country Club Secretary Tim May confirms that some members have complained about the president, but insists that "more members are delighted the president is playing at our club." _________ Is there something that Tim isn't telling us? ;-) From pjb at ny.ubs.com Fri Aug 2 15:27:22 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (Paul J. Bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:27:22 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <9608021922.AA06774@sherry.ny.ubs.com> > From grafolog at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 11:48:53 1996 > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 15:48:47 +0000 (GMT) > From: jonathon > X-Sender: grafolog at netcom10 > To: "Paul J. Bell" > Subject: Re: fbi, crypto, and defcon > X-No-Archive: yes > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Content-Length: 772 > > Paul: > > On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Paul J. Bell wrote: > > > in general, i suspect that the rip-off is going the other way. after all, > > no one forces anyone buy from microsoft, AT&T, etc., but people do steal from > > When I purchased my computers, I had to pay $150 to not have > Windows and Dos installed on them. That $150 went to Microsoft. > It seemed to me that I was being ripped off, by Microsoft. > > As far as AT&T goes, do you know how to determine what their > lowest residential rate is? Secondly, do you know how to > sign up for it? > > > xan > > jonathon > grafolog at netcom.com > > > > Illiterate: adj. Inability to read write or speak five > or fewer languages. > Funksioneel Ongeleerd: a. Die wat kon nee elf or meer tale > lees, skryf and gesprek. > > > as i said, i have no use for microsoft, whats more, i don't use microsoft. that said, if a person really must pay to not have their products installed, i agree that that is intorelable, and at the least calls for finding a new vendor for computers. if you really don't plan to use dos or windows, there is no reason why you should pay for them. frankly, this sounds like a real stupid move on the part of your hardware vendor. maybe you need to shop around. as for at&t, no, i don't know the lowest residential rate, but i'm sure that the rate varies depending on your long distance calling pattern. i'm sure that the rate is less for someone who rarely makes an ld call but wants to have the ability to do so when and if the need/desire arises then for someone who makes a few call per month and for another user who makes a lot of call each month. at any rate, all you need to do is to ask them for the lowest rate for your calling pattern, and if you don't like the answer, hang up and call mci, s print, etc. at least thats better than microsoft, where you don't have a lot of choice. take a quick look around the world, paying particular attention to those many countries where the telephone company was directly controlled by the government. was the service they provided really great? was it cheap? did they every provide anything new or improved? as one who has spent a lot of time in some of these countries i can answer from experience, hell no. a one time, in the late 50's i lived and worked in a certain west african country. th erule was, taht the first person in the office in the morning would take the phone off the hook, and maybe by 10:30 or 11:00 we would get a dial tone. of course, you would never hang the thing up again taht day, just pass it along to anyone else that needed to make a call. egypt and all of france was not a lot better. as late as 1983 it was a real challenge to get a phone installed or make a long distance call in france. no matter what the french say, telecommunications services still suck in france. i agree with you that a lot of companies do gouge the customer for all that they can get, and maybe AT&T is one of them, but maybe not. i have spent my entire working life providing for myself, asking and taking nothing from anyone, other than what i earned for myself. i payed for my education and for everything else that i ever had. however, once i had the money to invest, i did so, in, among others, AT&T, and since i take a chance with the money that i worked for by investing in them, i, by god, expect a return on my investment, and if AT&T can't provide it, i will dump them and take my chances elsewhere. however, whether its AT&T or someone else, if i risk my money, i expect something in return, and i can only expect that if the company (AT&T or who ever) makes a profit. profit is not a dirty word, it is what makes it all possible. AT&T did not build the worldwide network that serves us all for fun, not did they invent the transistor or UNIX, or all the other thinks that we take for granted just for the fun of it, or without risk. if you take the risk, you deserve a return on your investment. i have yet to meet a stockholder who said that they were satisfied with any given profit level and wished the company to give away goods or services rather then increase the dividends to the stockholders. the name of the game is PROFIT, its what keeps us all alive and employed. the real saving grace is in having a choice. i am not suggesting that as long as a company makes a profit that anything goes. what i am suggesting is that a company, or an individual for that matter is only obliged to see to there own well being. if an individual so chooses, they may spend their life, or any portion thereof, working for the good of someone else, or giving the results of all their labors to others, as they choose. in many ways this is a good thing and is what makes civilized life. however, i do not believe that it is ever permissable to dictate to an individual or to a company which is, after all, only the sum of it's employees and stockholders, the requirement or terms of how they will dispense the profits of their labors. if AT&T or any other company doesn't give you what you want, tell them to fuck-off, and take your business elsewhere. oh that we could so easily deal with a government that provides so little of what the people want. i think that it is rare for a company to forget who is really calling the shots, but our very own government seems to be completly unaware that they exist to serve us, not the other way around. they seem to have forgotten that the purpose of the constitution is not to define what rights are given to the people, but rather to define what powers the people give to the government. cheers, -paul From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 2 15:37:46 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:37:46 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: At 9:33 AM 8/2/96, Conrad Walton wrote: >i'm not exactly sure what an acid bomb is, but according to my book, The >Anarchist Cookbook, that I bought in 1972 (was the internet around back >then?), there is a compound called "picric acid" that is "more powerful >than TNT, but has some disadvantages". The ARPANET (or ARPANet, or Arpanet...) was around then. (I had an account on it, circa 1973...not very useful for me.) I also got my copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook" back around then. It was in the news locally when the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's office attempted to have it removed from the local bookstores....this removed it all right, as the stacks of copies sold out as quickly as they could be received and unpacked. (As others have noted over the years, much of the advice is probably bogus and even dangerous. Not being an explosives dabbler, I wouldn't know.) If Feinswine gets her ban on bomb-making information passed, and this is upheld by the courts (doubtful), the sites will be swamped with information queries, and fooling around with bombs will become more popular amongst the teenage set that has not expressed much interest in such things the past couple of decades. The more things change, the more they remain the same. --Tim May, an I-bomb-throwing crypto anarchist Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container. From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 2 15:40:49 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:40:49 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps Message-ID: At 8:52 AM 8/2/96, David Wagner wrote: >I don't get it. Help me out here-- how can this possibly be constitutional? > >I'm reading the Fourth Amendment to our honored Constitution of the United >States, which proclaims > > [...] > no warrants shall issue, > but upon probable cause, > supported by oath or affirmation, > and *particularly describing the place to be searched*, > and the persons or things to be seized. > >Are we just to strike out that emphasized phrase? What's going on here? >Someone tell me I'm not just having a bad nightmare. The same way the Second Amendment has been turned into a shadow of itself by creative lawyering. ("The Founders did not mean to include AR-15s and .45 Automatics as "guns," as these did not even exist in 1791. Likewise, cellular phones did not exist in 1791, so the Fourth Amendment could not possibly apply to them. Have a nice day.") --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From frissell at panix.com Fri Aug 2 15:41:44 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:41:44 +0800 Subject: privacy is a SMOKESCREEN. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802193411.0087b680@panix.com> See. Right-wing nuts are good for something. >from eff: > >CNN reports: "Key members of the Senate blamed House conservatives for >the failure, saying they had insisted on linking proposed new >wiretapping authority for the FBI to an expansion of privacy laws." > >CNN quotes Rep. Charles Schumer (D-NY) as saying that House Republican >leaders "have come up with this smokescreen called privacy". From perry at piermont.com Fri Aug 2 15:42:34 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:42:34 +0800 Subject: Tolerance In-Reply-To: <199608012148.OAA21170@cygnus.com> Message-ID: <199608021936.PAA10161@jekyll.piermont.com> "Chris Adams" writes: > Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there, especially > the "defend to the death" types: How many of you defended Mr. > Sternlight's recent membership? Libertarianism means that you oppose *government* censorship -- not that you feel obligated to listen to every idiot who comes down the street. In other words -- I defend to the death the right of David Sternlight to say anything he likes. However, thats very different from feeling that anyone is required to listen, or saying that a privately run forum must tolerate him. Perry From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 2 15:44:16 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:44:16 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: <199608021942.MAA17510@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:33 AM 8/2/96 -0000, Conrad Walton wrote: >i'm not exactly sure what an acid bomb is, but according to my book, The >Anarchist Cookbook, that I bought in 1972 (was the internet around back >then?), there is a compound called "picric acid" that is "more powerful >than TNT, but has some disadvantages". Picric acid is 2,4,6 trinitrophenol, easily produced by the nitric/sulfuric acid nitration of phenol. If picric acid contains about 15% of water or more, it is rather stable and innocuous. If it is allowed to completely dry out, it then becomes sensitive to detonation with a blasting cap. One disadvantage of picric acid is that it reads with heavy metals (copper, lead, etc) to form unstable picrate salts. >There is also instructions on using an inverted vial of sulpheric acid, >that will then eat thu the stopper at the top (bottom) of the vial. when >the acid makes it thru, then is mixes with Potassium Chloride Potassium _Chlorate_ and causes >a small explosion which sets off the larger explosion in the dynomite >packed around it. It would probably require a booster... Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From pjb at ny.ubs.com Fri Aug 2 15:54:50 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (Paul J. Bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:54:50 +0800 Subject: my message Re: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <9608021947.AA06865@sherry.ny.ubs.com> in my earlier message of this date, i said: >"i have spent my entire working life providing for myself, asking and taking nothing >from anyone, other than what i earned for myself. i payed for my education and for >everything else that i ever had." maybe i should have taken something, then i would have learned to spell. yes, i know that the correct spelling is 'paid', not 'payed', but sometimes, (often?), my fingers outrun my brain. does this, you ask, also account for the lack of uppercase characters? no, it's just my style, maybe its really laziness. cheers, -paul ps. you will undoubtly also find a few tath, thta, teh, and the like. maybe if i used that microsoft stuff with the spell checker rather than the sun mailtool i could present myself without the plethora of typos. sigh. From omega at bigeasy.com Fri Aug 2 15:58:46 1996 From: omega at bigeasy.com (Omegaman) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:58:46 +0800 Subject: Silliness on cypherpunks Message-ID: <199608021958.OAA02684@betty.bigeasy.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > The first issue is the seemingly sincere attempts at answering questions > that are obviously irrelevant. IMO cypherpunks are not "Mr. Answer Man" > for every question someone has regarding computers or electrical > engineering. Sure, most of us are pretty capable of answering these > questions - that doesn't mean that we should. At most, they might be privately directed to the appropriate URL or other reference. Some take the time to answer such questions by providing an exercise which should lead the individual to the answer. Chances are, though, that they're perfectly aware of Schneir's book and numerous other FAQ's of relevance. That means most likely we're dealing with laziness - which does not deserve a response > Whenever I asked a silly > question at home, my dad used to tell me - "look it up". The process of > finding the answer was actually far more important than the answer itself. > We should attempt to ignore these kinds of questions. Maybe eventually > they will go away. I believe that's called "learning." Unfortunately, far too many people engage in what I call "willful ignroance." I'm not an engineer. I'm not a mathmetician. I don't fully understand everything I've read here. If I'm interested, however, I look further and read up on the subject so I can make informed queries if needed. Some seem to think that this list is cruel to newcomers by posting sarcastic responses to newbie inquiries. This list assumes some amount of prior knowledge on the part of it's members. It is not the place for "what does PGP stand for?" questions. > My other "peeve of the day" is the wonderful introduction of the "mee too" > postings to cypherpunks. me too. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgJSYab3EfJTqNC9AQHXqwP/YUx5mtuDZTV4G6T//DsOZHtWqKo19+sN mUEWKFa0DkErukEXnNIhSXgQjtkknp/AJEP2UQ04JE5cIoVB8ti2tpeB+qLFJUvi pd149EYzQC+da0l0rSDWARtciWv642ZX5fdrCn7388tpxnCsTlnSLziaQVM7E9+S ZZ2etwMCQd8= =796N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Omegaman PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 send a message with the text "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 16:00:43 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 07:00:43 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... Message-ID: At 18:29 8/1/96, Timothy C. May wrote: >(With the Internet Phone deals--even Intel is entering the market--why are >there no widespread uses of PGP or S/MIME? Yes, I know about about PGPhone, >and also the Nautilus product, but none seem to be used by anyone I know. >Maybe we should spend some time talking about the practical realities of >these tools.) The sound quality really isn't there, unless you have a fast machine or a fat pipe. In addition, the vast majority of Intel based computers lack the crucial (for user acceptance) full-duplex soundcard. Add to that the physical impossibility of getting decent real time services over a non-isochronous network, such as the Internet, I'net phones just don't provide suffcient speech quality for business/serious personal use even without the added overhead of crypto. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From wwoelbel at midwest.net Fri Aug 2 16:24:50 1996 From: wwoelbel at midwest.net (W.K. Woelbeling) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 07:24:50 +0800 Subject: List for crypto minus political rubbish Message-ID: <199608022025.PAA02349@cdale1.midwest.net> I am looking for a source of info on crypto. While this list is of interest to (many) people, I find that the amount of political ranting outweighs any nuggets of information concerning cryptography. Pointers? Bill From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 2 16:48:33 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 07:48:33 +0800 Subject: URGENT: Surveillance Bill Gets New Life - House Vote lLikely TODAY! Message-ID: At 3:06 PM 8/2/96, Jonah Seiger wrote: >It's not over yet.... > >The House has scheduled a vote on "suspension" for a 'counter-terrorism' >bill TODAY (Friday). > >Despite media reports that the negotiations had stalled out, house >Republicans have apparently worked out their differences and are set to >vote on the bill today. The Senate may or may not vote on the measure on >Saturday. > >No one I've talked to knows for sure what's in the bill, though I have >heard that there are no encryption provisions and that some of the wiretap >proposals have been scaled back. I doubt any of the Congressjerks know what's in the thing they've voting on, either. This is the American way: wait 'til the last minute, pull a couple of "all nighters," go on vacation, and then claim ignorance. It worked when we were in school, so, hey, why not run the government the same way? ("I had no idea of what was in the Communications Decency Act...it just sounded like the "decent" thing to vote for."....."You mean the Anti-Terrorism Bill suspends habeus corpus? What's that? I'll ask my staffers to look into it.") Fuck 'em all. Fawkes had it wrong...they're not worth the powder to blow 'em to hell. All we can do is work on technological workarounds. Making their $2 billion Wiretap Boondoggle a worthless exercise is a start. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From frissell at panix.com Fri Aug 2 17:03:58 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 08:03:58 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802192913.0087dccc@panix.com> At 12:13 PM 8/2/96 -0400, Simon Spero wrote: >IP is the Flame, TCP is the Fuse, HTTP is the Bomb That'd be HTTPS wouldn't it. ^ DCF From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 17:05:32 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 08:05:32 +0800 Subject: Pipe bombs Message-ID: At 21:02 8/1/96, Timothy C. May wrote: >Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both >ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware >stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a >good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly >on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. >Do not pack >the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want >the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder >sitting loose in a very rigid container. I do believe you forgot the fuse... Electrical ignition elements, such as the ones used to launch model rockets should work just fine. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 2 17:09:34 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 08:09:34 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS Message-ID: At 2:39 PM 8/2/96, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >I find it amusing that the law is supposedly so concerned with >food purity for the "homeless." Hang out near a fast-food place >sometime and watch the street people dumpster dive for the >half-eaten remains of other people's Big Macs. That is the true >alternative to volunteer feeding programs. (That, or getting a >job.) I thought the point you were about to make when you said "Hang out near a fast-food place..." is that a _lot_ of "roach coaches" are much filthier than any "Food Not Bombs" soup kettle I've ever seen. (Fortunately, people survive all kinds of dirt and germs. If dogs and cats can eat stuff off the floor, and our ancestors did before hot water, soap, and autoclaves, then so can we. Not to mention children. But I digress.) The use of zoning and health code ordnances to harass certain classes of people is nothing new. Like I said, the Boy Scout Cookout and similar "good" events are not bothered by City Inspectors descending on them to shut them down. >The truth is that local officials are perverting the health codes >to harass these operations, not to "protect the homeless." At >it's core, it is a hypocritical abuse of power, not unlike the >invocation of the Four Horseman to keep strong crypto out of the >hands of average Americans. Further, in time past the operation of a "street food" service (hot dogs, ice cream, various knoshing items, etc.) was a way for otherwise poor persons to start a business. My own city, Santa Cruz, has no pushcart vendors, and only one officially-approved sidewalk hotdog vendor. A loss for us, a loss for would-be vendors, and with no gain in "food safety" that I can plausible see. I actually think this shows another side of the harassment of food giveaways and low-cost vendors: it cuts down on competition with the established food entities. While I tend to dismiss "corporate conspiracy" theories about how Giant Corporations are repressing and suppressing the Little Guys, there is little doubt that licensing, zoning, and other governmental restrictions are often used by established entities to keep out competition. Licenses get used for what economists call "rent-seeking" behavior. (Examples abound in other areas, too, such as where large chip companies like Intel actually relish the vast amounts of paperwork they are required to fill out, becuase this overhead and legal burden can be handled by their buildings full of paper pushers, but helps to keep small companies from entering the market. Intel has actually insisted that small companies file the same environmental impact reports, labor reports, etc., that they have to fill out. Understandable at one level, but also an example of using "the system" to put pressure on upstarts. Or, the rent-seeking of professional guilds, well-known to all of us.) As to Alan Horowitz's bizarre notion that "public streets" are not to be used for giving away food, does he believe the same to be true of giving away speech, giving away ideas, passing books to other people, etc.? "There are bookstores for selling or buying books, and anyone who engages in this sort of action on a public street will have his attitude adjusted with my billy club." "Public" areas cause problems for analysis of rights, I will grant. The "commons problem" is well known. But I think that the specific cases we've been discussing, of whacking bums with nightsticks for the crime of not maintaining "proper decorum," and of Food Not Bombs being shut down while the Boy Scouts are not, are clear cases where the law is being misapplied. (Were I a lawyer, and had the Food Not Bombs case come to trial, I would've collected evidence that a large number of other groups were not sanctioned for not having food preparation permits, and I would've argued it was a case of "selective enforcement" for political reasons.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From root at charley.clark.net Fri Aug 2 17:50:30 1996 From: root at charley.clark.net (root) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 08:50:30 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608022200.SAA02309@charley.clark.net> reply to: sparks at bah.com Subject: an endorsement ( sort of ) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail-demo 1.2.2-960711-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I just downloaded a copy of Ishmail ( http://www.ishmail.com) and I'm really impressed. I have a few things to tweek ( I installed it in the wrong directory so I have to be root for the moment ) but the interface to PGP is transparent.. smooth as a baby's a** !! I had a couple of questions, and they were answered very quickly. I found something I really like !! well worth the price for the UNIX / LINUX weenies (IMHO) Charley Sparks Charles E. Sparks In God We Trust, All Others we Encrypt Public Key at: http://www.clark.net/pub/charley/pc_1.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCXAwUBMgJ6ZOJ+JZd/Y4yVAQFWXgQMD5LMIBHPa0lKJAT0zPXA4ykYSNTf5a0o rpnoDFLlby5m+VdyJWLAwaQ1o3JiFP6q20u/lVh+Ixsgg2Yf27GGzur36jYjxNv8 Ist7uiDug3UHdmDZy6SYG6TM1MG6MARaixCE4HfV0DCZYt9ZAIWYAQWgRAOh7+fp 3QLUKATFJyeGTg== =+Pyo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From koontz at netapp.com Fri Aug 2 17:53:41 1996 From: koontz at netapp.com (Dave Koontz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 08:53:41 +0800 Subject: FPGAs and Heat (Re: Paranoid Musings) Message-ID: <9608022229.AA07237@lada> >The current Thinking Machines is a software firm, and Daniel Hillis is no >longer amongst the top management. The name lives on, but the business >of designing, building, and selling exotic supercomputers is kaput. >Not an uncommon story in the computer business. Even Control Data >Corporation still exists in a transmogrified form, although their >mainframe business went up in smoke ages ago. MasPar still exists as a software company, they changed the name however. From smith at sctc.com Fri Aug 2 17:53:52 1996 From: smith at sctc.com (Rick Smith) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 08:53:52 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy Message-ID: <199608022151.QAA02114@shade.sctc.com> George Kuzmowycz wrote: : The company I work for has set up a committee to draft a security : policy involving, among other things, e-mail. Since I'm responsible : for our networking and e-mail, I'm part of this group. Unfortunately, : I'm outnumbered by legal, auditing and HR types who, basically, want : to have access to everything. First, figure out what *your* objective is. You can't achieve e-mail privacy by implementing some idealized policy that says "Our company won't snoop into e-mail." It is the obligation of corporate functionaries to act in the corporation's best interest, and if that includes violating the privacy policy (as opposed to civil or criminal statutes) then it's going to happen. If you write it into one policy, they'll just find a different one that they can apply to override it. As you pointed out, the courts agree with this interpretation. Let us focus on what we *can* fix. You can make things better if you write the policy to reduce the risk of abuse. Nip this nonsense about "access to everything" in the bud. For example, the policy could provide oversight by requiring approvals from affected people (the victim's manager if not the actual victim). Then, access is granted to the victim's files and not to all the files. Even if auditors want to do "random audit" of e-mail, they don't really need "access to everything" to achieve it. They can randomly select messages somehow and only get readable copies after the messages are selected. You'd probably find lots of support for a more measured policy like this. For example, mail from the CEO or the head of the Audit department shouldn't be an open book just because Joe Blow from Audit is "auditing e-mail today." Also, your policymakers might think about the issues raised by the recent skit, "FBI Files on Republicans Stored in the Democratic White House." If they demand unlimited access to e-mail files, they might be held responsible for making use of information contained therein simply because they *could* have read them. Rick. smith at sctc.com secure computing corporation From wb8foz at nrk.com Fri Aug 2 17:58:25 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 08:58:25 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" In-Reply-To: <199608021800.LAA10727@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608022215.SAA04249@nrk.com> > The English-Only bill just passed in the House bans the use of > non-English languages by government officials. Does Tim's sudden > avoidance of the Latin mean that _he_'s the Fed?? What about Navajo? -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From wb8foz at nrk.com Fri Aug 2 18:04:30 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:04:30 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" In-Reply-To: <199608021800.LAA10727@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608022211.SAA04204@nrk.com> > The English-Only bill just passed in the House bans the use of > non-English languages by government officials. Does Tim's sudden > avoidance of the Latin mean that _he_'s the Fed?? What about Navajo? -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 18:14:41 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:14:41 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps Message-ID: At 1:52 8/2/96, David Wagner wrote: >I don't get it. Help me out here-- how can this possibly be constitutional? > >I'm reading the Fourth Amendment to our honored Constitution of the United >States, which proclaims > > [...] > no warrants shall issue, > but upon probable cause, > supported by oath or affirmation, > and *particularly describing the place to be searched*, > and the persons or things to be seized. > >Are we just to strike out that emphasized phrase? What's going on here? >Someone tell me I'm not just having a bad nightmare. The Fourth Amendment has been abolished by the Supreme Court for all intends and purposes. It remains listed in the Constitution for historic reasons only. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Aug 2 18:15:09 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:15:09 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote: > We require property owners who don't have city-sewage hookups, to install > their septic tanks and maintain them in certain defined configurations > which estop them from contaminating the neighbor's well. I don't know if > that's a good idea or not - but I haven't seen sentiment against sewage > regulation of property owners. > So why should we be terribly upset about an ordinance which makes it > illegal to operate a residential kitchen and a residential sewge-disposal > operation in a city park or a city sidewalk? As long as you are enforcing it on everyone, I don't think you'd have a problem, but to force some one from cooking food for homeless people, and allow a family barbeque, is IMO wrong. If it is unsafe/unsanitary to cook food in a certain way, it is unsafe/unsanitary. Selective enforcement is wrong. Force the yuppies on a sunday afternoon barbeque to get a permit and see how long the law lasts. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 2 18:15:13 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:15:13 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > I actually think this shows another side of the harassment of > food giveaways and low-cost vendors: it cuts down on competition > with the established food entities...there is little doubt that > licensing, zoning, and other governmental restrictions are often > used by established entities to keep out competition. A most distastful example is the complicit silence of gun stores when the gun grabbers regulate "kitchen table" gun dealers out of economic existance. "When they came for the communists, I said nothing because I wasn't a communist..." S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Aug 2 18:16:55 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:16:55 +0800 Subject: Pipe bombs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > Fuck them. Fuck Swinestein, Klinton, Gingrich, and all the rest. And fuck > Dole. (On second thought, don't--it might not be a survivable experience.) Unsurvivable for which party? > > I say they've all earned only our contempt. A long time ago. > It's time to accelerate our efforts to undermine this foolish experiment in > pandering to the masses. Tell us how o' wise one. > --Tim May > Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both > ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware > stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a > good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly > on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. > Do not pack > the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want > the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder > sitting loose in a very rigid container. What about fusing? Mechinical detonation with a shotgun shell, or electrical with a model rocket engine? Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From pjn at nworks.com Fri Aug 2 18:17:08 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:17:08 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defc Message-ID: In> They said that every other time their comrades had come to defcon, In> they had tried to come incognito, and got caught every time. This In> time, they wore FBI t-shirts, and the only response was "Hey! Where'd In> ya get the T-Shirt?!?". They said "We hacked 'em from the FBI" and that In> was it, noone suspected... =) I would love to get my hands on "I spotted the Fed" and "I am a Fed" (or whatever they say) T-Shirts... P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... A man without a religion is like a fish without a bicycle. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From alano at teleport.com Fri Aug 2 18:20:25 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:20:25 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802202248.00b23440@mail.teleport.com> At 12:13 PM 8/2/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >I also got my copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook" back around then. It was in >the news locally when the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's office attempted >to have it removed from the local bookstores....this removed it all right, >as the stacks of copies sold out as quickly as they could be received and >unpacked. > >(As others have noted over the years, much of the advice is probably bogus >and even dangerous. Not being an explosives dabbler, I wouldn't know.) There are a great number of errors in the book. (Details of many can be found at http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ctmunson/aol_cookbook_faq.html .) The one error I found in the book when I was in High School was the recipe for Nitrogen Triodide. (sp?) The Anarchist's Cookbook lists four steps for making it. The first two are correct. The second two (running alchhol and ether, if I remember correctly) dry the mixture out and probibly detonate it in the process. (The ether would make things much worse, as ether is pretty volitile in and of itself.) I found better formulas for simple explosives in "Lee's Priceless Recipes". (Which was published in 1912. Long before the Internet.) Ah, memories of High School chemistry classes... --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Aug 2 18:37:50 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:37:50 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps In-Reply-To: <4tsfjm$oi6@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On 2 Aug 1996, David Wagner wrote: > In article <01I7RM0CJM388Y4XIK at mbcl.rutgers.edu>, > I don't get it. Help me out here-- how can this possibly be constitutional? It isn't, since when has that stopped them? > I'm reading the Fourth Amendment to our honored Constitution of the United > States, which proclaims > Are we just to strike out that emphasized phrase? What's going on here? > Someone tell me I'm not just having a bad nightmare. You're not having a nightmare, it's reality. > Apologies if these are silly questions, It isn't the questions that are stupid, it is answers. > P.S. Do police really need a search warrant to wiretap cellular phones? No, not to tap the phone, just to use it as evidence. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 2 18:53:43 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:53:43 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software In-Reply-To: <199608021800.LAA10722@toad.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, some provocateur impersonating Bill Stewart wrote: > Tim wrote: > > Actually approving of disapproving a piece of software for sale > > to U.S. citizens is not currently possible. > > Sure. The Commerce Klaus of the Constitution lets them do it > if they want to, though that required Congressional cooperation. That would certainly be less of a stretch than some other commerce clause cases. Crypto can be used interstate, and there's a compelling state interest in form of The Four Horsemen. Heck, we should all thank our lucky stars that our freedom-loving congresscritters let us use computers at all. I believe it was Wickard who was told he couldn't grow food to feed his own pigs because the government has a compelling state interest in keeping interstate food prices high. Surely terrorism and kiddie porn, which is all people ever use the net (let alone crypto) for, are even more important than high food prices. > TRUST NO ONE! Indeed. - -rich fucking statist -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMgJ4j5NcNyVVy0jxAQE/yAH+O3HErmEi9TrEJaBbmb6u0K/1du34t4MQ cByjhW5poJlrb5CLtPAt/5nOaWYlwvlEtvXSckbn1DJPN5ry4kXVvw== =0sLc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdolan at use.usit.net Fri Aug 2 18:54:40 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:54:40 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Didn't (left-radical) Abbie Hoffman's anarchy bible _Steal This Book_ have some bombmaking instructions also? I don't recall civilization falling in 1968 or thereabouts when STB was published. bd On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 9:33 AM 8/2/96, Conrad Walton wrote: > > >i'm not exactly sure what an acid bomb is, but according to my book, The > >Anarchist Cookbook, that I bought in 1972 (was the internet around back > >then?), there is a compound called "picric acid" that is "more powerful > >than TNT, but has some disadvantages". > > The ARPANET (or ARPANet, or Arpanet...) was around then. (I had an account > on it, circa 1973...not very useful for me.) > > I also got my copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook" back around then. It was in > the news locally when the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's office attempted > to have it removed from the local bookstores....this removed it all right, > as the stacks of copies sold out as quickly as they could be received and > unpacked. > > (As others have noted over the years, much of the advice is probably bogus > and even dangerous. Not being an explosives dabbler, I wouldn't know.) > > If Feinswine gets her ban on bomb-making information passed, and this is > upheld by the courts (doubtful), the sites will be swamped with information > queries, and fooling around with bombs will become more popular amongst the > teenage set that has not expressed much interest in such things the past > couple of decades. > > The more things change, the more they remain the same. > > --Tim May, an I-bomb-throwing crypto anarchist > > Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both > ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware > stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a > good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly > on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. > Do not pack > the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want > the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder > sitting loose in a very rigid container. > > > From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 2 19:07:18 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:07:18 +0800 Subject: Pipe bombs Message-ID: At 9:26 PM 8/2/96, Lucky Green wrote: >At 21:02 8/1/96, Timothy C. May wrote: > >>Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ... >I do believe you forgot the fuse... Electrical ignition elements, such as >the ones used to launch model rockets should work just fine. Actually, all I did was copy the first couple of paragraphs from the very first set of instructions I found, found by using Alta Vista to search the Web on the string "pipe bomb". That's what turned up. (I guess I should've put quote marks around it and given a URL, but I was in a rush to generate my felonious alternate .sig. I'll correct it now.) --Tim HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From steve at miranova.com Fri Aug 2 19:18:12 1996 From: steve at miranova.com (Steven L Baur) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:18:12 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon In-Reply-To: <9608021922.AA06774@sherry.ny.ubs.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Paul" == Paul J Bell writes: jonathon> When I purchased my computers, I had to pay $150 to not have jonathon> Windows and Dos installed on them. That $150 went to Microsoft. jonathon> It seemed to me that I was being ripped off, by Microsoft. Paul> as i said, i have no use for microsoft, whats more, i don't use Paul> microsoft. that said, if a person really must pay to not have Paul> their products installed, i agree that that is intorelable, and Paul> at the least calls for finding a new vendor for computers. if Paul> you really don't plan to use dos or windows, there is no reason Paul> why you should pay for them. frankly, this sounds like a real Paul> stupid move on the part of your hardware vendor. maybe you need Paul> to shop around. This is exactly what a new lawsuit recently filed against Microsoft is about. See http://www.caldera.com/news/pr001.html for details. They've already had their hand slapped for the per-processor license agreements they pushed in the early '90s. The per-processor licenses were where Microsoft forced hardware vendors to pay a certain fee based on CPUs sold regardless of what system software was delivered on them. -- steve at miranova.com baur Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be proofread for $250/hour. Andrea Seastrand: For your vote on the Telecom bill, I will vote for anyone except you in November. From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Fri Aug 2 19:27:57 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:27:57 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960802234117.006acb90@gonzo.wolfenet.com> At 11:58 AM 8/2/96 +0000, you wrote: >>P.S. Do police really need a search warrant to wiretap cellular phones? > >It is my understanding that police need a warrant to tap *cellular* >phones, but not *wireless* phones. > >One should understand that monitoring cellular traffic is *much* more >difficult than tapping a conventional phone, because as the user >moves around in the service area the phone switches to different >repeaters, often several times during a conversation. I'd have to disagree on that point. Monitoring cellular traffic requires nothing more than a cellular phone, and some software which enables you to follow calls through the cells, for a total cost of about $500. This is exceptionally trivial with an Oki 900 and a ctek cable (which interfaces the fone with the computer). With this software you can monitor individual cells, choosing to "lock on" to a call made from a specific number, or to a specific number. You can follow calls, and record any dtmf digits. Also the caller will never be made aware that he/she is being listened to. A sophisticated land line wiretap that will not be detectable by the average citizen will cost well over $500, plus you have to install it without the target knowing, etc. //cerridwyn// From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Aug 2 19:29:41 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:29:41 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy In-Reply-To: <199608021611.JAA13044@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608022351.SAA14955@manifold.algebra.com> George Kuzmowycz wrote: > In an ideal world, the rest of the group would agree with me and say > "Yup, we have no business reading e-mail." Since that's not likely, > I'm looking for examples of "privacy-friendly" corporate policies > that I can put on the table in our meetings, and end up with a > minority report. > Maybe it is only me, but I recommend "privacy-fascist" policy. This way employees will at least know to keep their own business out of computers that will be monitored by the company anyways. This is ultimately to the betterment of employees themselves if they fall prey to complaints of the likes of January KOTM The Right Reverend Colin James III (puke). For the information of those who do not know CJ3 made it a hobby to complain to the employers of people whom he did not like -- with not much success though. The employees would easily be able to say that the employer has nothing to do with the alleged matters of complaints. - Igor. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 19:29:53 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:29:53 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030027.TAA11243@einstein> Hi, Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 16:41:17 -0700 > From: Cerridwyn Llewyellyn > Subject: Re: [off-topic] roving wiretaps > A sophisticated land line wiretap that will not be detectable by the > average citizen will cost well over $500, plus you have to install it > without the target knowing, etc. It costs nothing, it is already built into the switch at part of the standard diagnostics. I spent 5 years at the University of Texas at Austin working in security and part of my job was support of the NT switch. You go to the switch put a butt-set or recorder on the diag port and route the call data over to that port. Jim Choate From jseiger at cdt.org Fri Aug 2 19:30:08 1996 From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:30:08 +0800 Subject: Latest info on the "counter-terrorism" bill Message-ID: The House passed a revised counter-terrorism bill this afternoon by a substantial majority. The bill is expected to be considered by the Senate on Saturday 8/3, and is likely to pass. The House-passed bill DOES NOT contain ANY of the privacy threatening provisions. Provisions dealing with funding for the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (Digital Telephony) were REMOVED from the bill just before the vote after civil liberties groups AND the FBI objected to the language. Provisions dealing with emergency wiretap authority and "roving wiretaps" were also not included in the House-passed bill. In addition, the bill does not contain any encryption provisions. Earlier in the week, the Administration had circulated an outline of their anti-terrorism proposal which included new, unspecified restrictions on encryption. Senators Burns (R-MT), Leahy (D-VT), Pressler (R-SD), Lott (R-MS), and others worked hard to prevent any encryption provisions from being included in early versions of the bill, and deserve a lot of credit for fighting for the Net. It's nice to finally have a number of powerful allies joining the usual defenders of net.freedom on Capitol Hill. The bill passed today contains provisions increasing airport security, studies on ways to improve US anti terrorism policy and other terrorism issues, and a controvertial provisions expanding federal racketeering laws to cover terrorist activity. The bill also contains a small but not insigificant privacy victory. The bill doubles the punishment from 5 to 10 years for unlawful disclosure of information obtained from a warrant and increases certain penalties for violation of the Privacy Act. This is not over yet -- many of these issues, particularly encryption and Digital Telephony funding, are likely to be back before the Congress in September, so stay tunned... Thanks to everyone who called Congress today to object to the new sweeping surveillance provisions that were dropped from the bill! It looks like we mave had really made a difference in this debate. More as it comes... Jonah -- Jonah Seiger, Policy Analyst Center for Democracy and Technology (v) +1.202.637.9800 http://www.cdt.org/ From declan at well.com Fri Aug 2 19:32:00 1996 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:32:00 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: Stop the presses -- the other shoe didn't drop. Despite a flurry of last-minute hyperbole, the House passed an anti-terrorism bill this afternoon without the ominous encryption or wiretap provisions. Now the bill lies in the lap of the Senate, which probably will approve it later today or tomorrow before they leave town for the August recess. In the wake of the dual bombings, Congress wanted to be seen as taking *some* action before they adjourned, and last weekend Clinton and the Dems started lobbying hard for the heinous measures they wanted in an anti-terrorism bill. Vastly expanded state-snooping capabilities: multipoint wiretaps, warrantless short-term wiretaps, dialed-phone number recorders, and black and smokeless powder taggants. Even possible of anti-crypto language that Jamie Gorelick, deputy attorney general, has been shopping around for months. The Net owes its thanks to the House Republicans for stopping these fool Dems in a fine backroom political maneuver late last night. They did it through the House Rules Committee, which in the wee hours of the morning reported a rule allowing the GOP leadership to introduce the terrorism bill on the floor today -- without letting Democrats see it, amend it, or even send it back to committee. It was a good plan -- coordinated by Rep. Chris Cox -- keeping the legislation away from the hands of the Big Brother Dems. The Democrats waxed pissy. Rep. David Bonior, the party's whip, called the majority's maneuvering "extrordinary." John Conyers, the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, blasted Gingrich and the Republican leadership for "bringing a meaningless bill to the House floor." Conyers said to reporters at 1 pm: "It's a hoax on the American people. It is all bark and no bite... This bill is missing the important wiretapping provisions that would allow law enforcement to find and stop terrorists before they kill. The House Republicans and the NRA say we should not have emergency authority for surveillance even if we know terrorists are about to blow a plane out of the sky. They also say that we should not have wiretap authority for terrorists who use more than one telephone to make their deadly plans." Of course, this is political grandstanding at its finest -- or worst. Conyers conveniently neglected to add that law enforcement officers already have the right to use roving wiretaps with court approval. Also, there was a mixup over Digital Telephony funding, compounded by the text of the legislation's being kept secret until the last minute. Summaries distributed to reporters early this afternoon said: "The bill authorizes the FBI to use enhanced telephone technology to investigate suspected terrorist activity. Funding for equipment purchase was provided in the 1996 omnibus appropriations measure enacted earlier this year." But the DT provisions weren't in the final draft of the bill. Silly Congressperns. The House had *already* approved the DT slushfund on July 24 as part of the 1997 Commerce, Justice, State departments appropriations bill. Now the 1997 CJS appropriations bill goes to the Senate, which will decide how much cash to give Digital Telephony when they return in early September. What's going to happen? Well, Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont), a former prosecutor and longtime proponent of Digital Telephony, said yesterday at the Intelligence Committee hearing on terrorism: "I was proud to have worked with the FBI director to ensure passage of the Communications Assisatance for Law Enforcement Act, sometimes called the digital telephony law." With Republicans like the ones in the House, who needs so-called "civil libertarian" Democrats? -Declan From koontz at netapp.com Fri Aug 2 19:33:00 1996 From: koontz at netapp.com (Dave Koontz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:33:00 +0800 Subject: ITAR Message-ID: <9608022350.AA01262@supernova.netapp.com> How about exporting programs, that when executed generate source code for encryption algorithms? (xmas.c comes to mind, an obscurity winning c program that writes out the twelve days of Christmas.) From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 2 19:55:39 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 10:55:39 +0800 Subject: URGENT: Surveillance Bill Gets New Life - House Vote lLikely TODAY! Message-ID: <199608030013.RAA03026@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:21 PM 8/2/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >("I had no idea of what was in the Communications Decency Act...it just >sounded like the "decent" thing to vote for."....."You mean the >Anti-Terrorism Bill suspends habeus corpus? What's that? I'll ask my >staffers to look into it.") > >Fuck 'em all. Fawkes had it wrong...they're not worth the powder to blow >'em to hell. > >All we can do is work on technological workarounds. Making their $2 billion >Wiretap Boondoggle a worthless exercise is a start. I thought of what I consider to be an excellent "workaround." The way I see it, a majority of us want to see a majority of them dead, or at least resigned. If that's the case, why can't we get what we want? Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From minow at apple.com Fri Aug 2 20:00:46 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 11:00:46 +0800 Subject: AP story: Police look for Olympic bombing Internet link. Message-ID: Search Campus Where Jewell Worked; Check Internet Link By Associated Press, 08/02/96 ATLANTA (AP) - Widening their investigation of Richard Jewell, federal and state agents descended on a small Georgia college campus Friday to hunt for evidence linking him to the Olympic park bombing. Among other things, investigators were trying to determine whether the former campus guard had tapped into the Internet via Piedmont College computers, a campus source reported. Bomb-making instructions available through the global computer network have contributed to an increase in bombings in the United States, authorities say. [From http://www.boston.com/globe/cgi-bin/globe.cgi?ap/apnat.htm ] Martin Minow minow at apple.com From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 2 20:01:06 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 11:01:06 +0800 Subject: BOO_mer Message-ID: <199608030028.AAA04054@pipe1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> 8-2-96. WaJo: "More Bombs Are Exploding Across the U.S." What also worries law-enforcement officials are the comparatively unspectacular bombs exploding at a rising rate in neighborhoods across the country. Indeed, with homicides declining, bombings may have become the fastest-growing category of violent crime. "In the old days, kids would break windows," says John O'Brien, an agent in Washington with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. "Now, they're making pipe bombs." Police say one of the most popular bombs among youths -- one combining acid and other ingredients in a bottle -- is called the "McGyver" because many learned about it from the television show. David Estenson, head of a bomb-crisis management firm and former head of the Minneapolis police bomb squad, observes that many of the pipe bombs in Israel contain only match heads. "U.S. Studies Use of Chemical Tracers To Track Explosives in Terrorist Blasts." The Treasury Department is studying a family of trace chemicals -- first developed by U.S. weapons scientists to track the fallout of nuclear weapons -- as a way to give terrorist explosives an identifiable trail. The trace chemicals are newer and much smaller than plastic "taggants," which have provoked resistance from the explosives industry and gun lobbies. Desmonde Cowdery, vice president of Isotag L.L.C., a small Houston company that has obtained commercial rights to the process, claims the chemical tracers are so small they can be blended with all types of explosives, including fertilizers and gunpowders, without interfering with chemical reactions. "Can America Stomach a War on Terror?" The lessons from the world's battlefields of terror are sobering. Not only have few countries been able to make much of a dent in a determined terrorist campaign, but their efforts also often incur a heavy price. Due-process rights have been suspended, freedoms of speech curtailed, police powers beefed up. Tommy Sands, a Belfast folk singer, praises America's caution. He says that in Northern Ireland and other hot spots, authorities have often overreacted to the initial threat. "It's like driving a car and seeing a red light come on that means you're short on oil. If you take a hammer to it, the red light will go out, but you're still short on oil," Mr. Sands says. "Sometimes there are answers other than the big hammer." ----- http://jya.com/boomer.txt (19 kb for 3) Lynx: http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/boomer.txt BOO_mer From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 20:18:24 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 11:18:24 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030135.UAA11317@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 15:23:23 -0700 > From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) > Subject: Re: [off-topic] roving wiretaps > > The Fourth Amendment has been abolished by the Supreme Court for all > intends and purposes. It remains listed in the Constitution for historic > reasons only. ARTICLE IV. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I must agree with the above sentiment by Lucky. When Steve Jackson got busted (I was peripheraly involved through Mentor and Bloodaxe) and the warrant was not only sealed (ie Mentor and Bloodaxe didn't get to see it) but it was unsigned as well when it was executed. Jim Choate From andrew_loewenstern at il.us.swissbank.com Fri Aug 2 20:33:00 1996 From: andrew_loewenstern at il.us.swissbank.com (Andrew Loewenstern) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 11:33:00 +0800 Subject: AP story: Police look for Olympic bombing Internet link. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9608030114.AA03672@ch1d157nwk> Search Campus Where Jewell Worked; Check Internet Link By Associated Press, 08/02/96 ATLANTA (AP) - Widening their investigation of Richard Jewell, federal and state agents descended on a small Georgia college campus Friday to hunt for evidence linking him to the Olympic park bombing. Among other things, investigators were trying to determine whether the former campus guard had tapped into the Piedmont College library, a campus source reported. Bomb-making instructions available through the national inter-library borrowing network have contributed to an increase in bombings in the United States, authorities say. [Not From Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate asked: > A reasonable person recognizes that such a business has two ways > of fulfilling its responsiblities. They can either submit to > regulation and quality control from the local municipality or > else they can hang signs about their place of business declaring > "Caveat Emptor: Our food may be tainted, eat at your own risk". > Which do you think is the more reasonable? It would be nice if businesses were offered that choice. I would choose the second, myself. Only my sign would say, "Our food is guaranteed not tainted by the Acme insurance company, not some corrupt government." The problem is, governments do not allow businesses nor consumers to make that sort of choice. With them it's, "my way or the highway" (or harassment and jail actually). > People and businesses are not the same. Until Jim shows me a business that isn't owned and operated by people, I'll have to respectfully disagree. Businesses are just people acting alone or in concert. Actions are what count, not whether the action is of a pecuniary nature or not. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 21:49:52 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:49:52 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030251.VAA11455@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:48:45 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > Subject: Re: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) > > << 9th & 10th AMendments to the Conmstitution >> > > Cute, you left out the Third. ARTICLE III. No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any home without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. I didn't include it because it isn't germane to the discussion at hand. > We are referring to the Sovereign power of the State of Washington to > allocate to the municipality of Seattle, a general Police Power to > maintain the Peace. Every lawyer seems to think that Seattle has the > power to forbid people from using sidewalks as latrines and kitchen sinks. I agree with the municipality, if you want to eat your own shit and piss go right ahead. You have no right to expose me to the deliterious health effects of such material randomly sprayed around my city. Hell, even animals are smart enough to know not to shit in their own bed. Pitty all these smart people seem to have forgotten such a basic rule of nature. Such actions are clearly a threat to my person and property. > I am in bed with the government, so I have better knowledge than most of > the people on this list, about how bad it is. Nonetheless, I recall the > aphorism from the Talmud: "Pray for the health of the government, lest > the people eat other alive". If these sayings indicate such insight how come the Jews have such a terrible time getting along with anyone for any length of time? Why does their current regime have such a hard time? Why is it that I get such a rising in the hackles on my neck when I am reminded that it is illegal in Isreal to carry a Palestinian flag in public. How come they begin to look more and more like the new age nazi's? The Isrealis love of government and structure has certainly not brought them great amounts of security, wealth, or friends. > If you want to walk into the public library after a six-month moratorium > on bathing - well, the courts are divided on this, but _I_ stand for the > proposition that this is an assault on the other patrons and I will lobby > _my_ city councilman for there to be rules against it. I will oppose it. While I would oppose those self same persons from touching me or my property without my prior permission (which I would not give) I would not prohibit them from entering any public facility. I oppose Austin's recent ruling prohibiting sleeping in public parks and other area because the local businesses said it effected their profits. I oppose their recent ruling that ALL persons who ride a bike MUST wear a helmet, ostensibly to protect children even though the law doesn't mention minors at any point. The mayor when queeried on this point simply ignored it. I assure you none of them will get my vote, and from what I have seen not a lot of others either. > But if you want to play your boombox loud near me, make damn sure you do > it behind soundproof walls. Where I live, the cops will respond to that > kind of complaint and shut down the nuisance, with nightsticks if need be > (in my little rural area, it's seldom necessary). Maybe you California or > NYC folks don't have police forces that will mitigate nuisances. Enjoy > your progressive radical-chic neighborhood, folks. Unless you can demonstrate that your person or property are harmed by the action I oppose such laws. Simply smelling bad is not a physical act. Austin has a law which basicaly does the same thing. In general the people of the city don't like it, the police don't enforce it, and the people drive around town jammin' to their hearts content. If my apartment neighbor is playing their radio too loud I am not going to call the cops I am going to call the manager if my attempts at becoming some sort of aquaintence fail at mediation. It is private property and short of violence to a person or property they have no business in here without a warrant. I own 5 acres near Lockhart, just outside Austin, and I have made it clear to several of the county mounties that parking in my driveway is verbotten if they don't have a warrant for searching my property, they liked to park there to eat food and fill out reports. They seem to understand and respect my wishes. They now park down at the intersection of my dirt road and 71 on public land. The right to freedom of speech means you have a right to be offended and to offend. If you haven't been offended at least once a day you need to get out of your apartment and quit watching the roaches crawl the walls. If what is on television offends you then start your own television station and play family (or porno) material till your hearts content. Passing laws that tell privately owned stations what to air is wrong because it is equivalent to limiting the freedom of speech and press. This can be extended to all such prior restraint laws. To regulate content based on the public airwaves model is equivalent to the state telling me what station to listen to on my car radio because I am on a public road. When I was a small child I learned an important lesson the hard way. I was smaller than the other kids so they would call me names and pick on me to no end. Did I fight with them? No, I recognized even at that young age that violence would not stop the actions, only change their nature. Violence as a means of coersion is a signal of a small mind. On the other hand, I only lost a single fight in the 1st grade. This taught me that if one is attacked in a physical sense respond with all the force and violence you can muster, show no mercy until the beggar is on the ground and in a sorry state. Don't stop if they say they surrender, they may be saying it to gain a tactical advantage. Stop only when you are certain they no longer have the will or means to carry the fight further. It would be a great thing if our government and society in general would learn this lesson regarding violence. We would live in a much less violent world. Jim Choate From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 2 21:53:18 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:53:18 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy In-Reply-To: <199608022351.SAA14955@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > employees will at least know to keep their own business out of computers > that will be monitored by the company anyways. Igor learned it the hard way... He's no longer reachable @wiltel.com. :-) > This is ultimately to the betterment of employees themselves if they > fall prey to complaints of the likes of January KOTM The Right Reverend > Colin James III (puke). For the information of those who do not know > CJ3 made it a hobby to complain to the employers of people whom he did > not like -- with not much success though. Not true - Colin got several forgers in serious trouble for their net-abuse. More power to him. The Internet needs more people like TRRCJ3 (pbuh). --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 21:59:07 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:59:07 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030142.UAA11326@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:50:01 -0500 (CDT) > From: snow > Subject: Re: A Libertine Question > > As long as you are enforcing it on everyone, I don't think you'd have a > problem, but to force some one from cooking food for homeless people, and > allow a family barbeque, is IMO wrong. Not at all. Businesses have no rights, individuals do. Businesses have a responsibility to protect their patrons (if you don't think so ask all the folks in Japan or the people here in Austin sick from Strawberries and Blueberries they bought at the local HEB). Individuals have a right to privacy, that includes cooking themselves food without harrassment. Business on the other hand are selling products of potentialy questionable quality. A reasonable person recognizes that such a business has two ways of fulfilling its responsiblities. They can either submit to regulation and quality control from the local municipality or else they can hang signs about their place of business declaring "Caveat Emptor: Our food may be tainted, eat at your own risk". Which do you think is the more reasonable? > If it is unsafe/unsanitary to cook > food in a certain way, it is unsafe/unsanitary. Selective enforcement is > wrong. Not at all. I have a right to kill myself with bad cooking if I choose. I do not have the right to kill another, especialy a stranger, without their prior consent. I guess it would be ok if a food vendor were to ask you if you minded being killed by their product, but I doubt many of them would be in business next week, let alone sell many hot dogs. People and businesses are not the same. Jim Choate From JMKELSEY at delphi.com Fri Aug 2 22:04:22 1996 From: JMKELSEY at delphi.com (JMKELSEY at delphi.com) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:04:22 +0800 Subject: Paranoid Musings Message-ID: <01I7TCONUR6G8Y5AIP@delphi.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [ To: cypherpunks ## Date: 08/02/96 12:29 pm ## Subject: Paranoid Musings ] >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:13:59 -0700 >From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) >Subject: Paranoid Musings >Sometimes paranoia strikes. Since these musings are crypto related, >I thought I would share them. >Now expensive specialized cracking equipment can certainly speed up >the process, but there may be a better way. If cryptanalysis of RC4 >yields techniques which make the process much easier, then it is the >ideal cypher to certify for export. Actually, this makes sense for another reason. Academic cryptanalysis is often about finding any attack on a cipher that's easier than keysearch, even if the requirements for that attack are still completely impractical. (Differential and linear attacks on DES are a good example of this.) However, if you're interested in actually recovering data in your attacks with high probability and low cost, then it makes sense to focus on protocol and implementation weaknesses, and then on attacks like keysearch which can be done with either ciphertext-only or known-plaintext. I would guess that some of NSA's best people work on optimizing keysearches. This especially makes sense because of the widespread use, first of DES, and more recently of exportable 40-bit ciphers like RC2 and RC4. >The paranoid conclusion is that there is a significant weakness in >RC4. The paranoid conclusion is that there is a significant weakness in any cipher you're counting on. >Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting >(408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. >frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA --John Kelsey, jmkelsey at delphi.com / kelsey at counterpane.com PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgI7X0Hx57Ag8goBAQEsNAQAm6SbOnCkTh2EByH8Oa1GoTItx+JUE2hA mtEDp//VW1qH5Lzem14ARGbcgIHbPQqVHN355p5pSrH7tI+RnPc45RRjmF6Ot96r CjnOz3DWPOXx30pm4NGchKs3MmfMyeDKvL3GofMZee8qNm8IZsnMuLMhQABUIdBM kU/oaYwfZdE= =C9ip -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Aug 2 22:06:15 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:06:15 +0800 Subject: VISA Travel Money In-Reply-To: <4tmr8j$lrg@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3202AC0F.41C6@ai.mit.edu> Timothy C. May wrote: > I'm also skeptical of these "VISA Travel Money" cards. That is, they don't > seem to be too useful for anything. They are usefull for the one purpose for which they are designed. One can go off to a foreign country and obtain cash as required without having to pay often usurous fees from bureaux de change. Just because you are supposed to be able to use travel cheques as cash does not mean that you really can. > After all, cash works well. (It's rarely stolen, in my experience, or at > least this is not a major concern. Traveller's checks work well, and can be > "cashed" into the local currency. ATM machines fill the same function these > "VISA Travel Money" cards apparently do; at least when I was in Europe the > last time this is what I used, and my French francs were as untraceable as > could be. > > As I see it, yet another marketing solution looking for a problem. Its not a major VISA product but it is reasonably usefull. Its more convenient to carry a card than cash. If one gets mugged or looses the card there is a way of recovering the cash (sometimes). I don't think that there would be much use for such cards in the tourist belt but you might well want to have one if you were going on a trip to the hinterlands of a country. For most people VISA travel cheques or a cash advance is likely to be more usefull. > A real step would be a true privacy card, a card issued in a jurisdiction > unfriendly to U.S. investigators and offering various transaction-blinding > options. I have to wonder what pressures have been put on the major credit > card companies... See the Stored Value Card work that VISA have been working on, or MONDEX. MONDEX has almost every feature you would want from anonymous cash except you can't prove its anonymous. You can do purse to purse transfers however. Its a different level of privacy to that of e-cash. e-cash provides only purchaser unlinkability and its an online scheme. MONDEX makes it possible to trace certain withdrawal and deposit patterns of a user but little else. Phill From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 2 22:13:00 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:13:00 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: At 12:48 AM 8/3/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Stop the presses -- the other shoe didn't drop. Despite a flurry of >last-minute hyperbole, the House passed an anti-terrorism bill this >afternoon without the ominous encryption or wiretap provisions. Now >the bill lies in the lap of the Senate, which probably will approve it >later today or tomorrow before they leave town for the August recess. I agree. And I think we should thank CDT, EFF, the ACLU, and (gasp) the NRA for ensuring that martial law provisions did not get slipped in during the rush to get out of Washington for the recess. (And maybe other groups...I don't follow all the politics.) I'm watching Rep. Bob Barr (R) on "Larry King Live," on CNN. He makes a lot of sense, and keeps coming back to civil liberties, the alliance between the ACLU and the NRA on this one, etc. His adversary, Rep. John Conyers (D) is calling for stronger measures, for the need to "do something." (I thought the Democrats nominally stood for certain types of civil liberties? Not that I ever was fooled by them, but this is the public personna they present.) >The Net owes its thanks to the House Republicans for stopping these >fool Dems in a fine backroom political maneuver late last night. By the way, my blasting of Sen. Dianne Feinstein as "Fineswine," "Swinestein," etc. (names not original with me, of course) is heartfelt. I don't mine dealing with opponents, even articulate enemies of freedom. But Feinstein is a halfwit and a hypocrite. A San Francisco society lady masquerading as a senator. She's proof that transmigration of souls is real, being the incarnation of Marie Antoinette. "Let them eat cake." --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 2 22:17:39 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:17:39 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) Message-ID: At 2:10 AM 8/3/96, Jim Choate wrote: >True enough, but not the whole story. If a dog or cat is kept well and fed >good quality food they live 10+ years. The average life of an animal on the >street is between 2-5 years. As to people, we now live around 75-80 years, >prior to all these rules and regulations on food and such the average was >20-25. If we go back to what you propose you would be dead a long time ago. Hardly a proved correlation. A lot of other factors come into play. But never mind. No point arguing. ... >I personaly find it reassuring that some bunch of knuckle-heads are unable >to start a chip making facility like you support. The thought of finding >flourine compounds in the local river (where I get my tap water) or simply >dumped in the air is a little unsettling. Just because some group of bozo's >want to start a business is not sufficient justification for that to be >allowed. A straw man. There is is no evidence that these startup companies are dumping stuff in rivers. Jeesh. The point is that large companies learn how to keep large staffs employed filling out paperwork, and they actually have come to see it is a good way to keep small companies from forming. >It seems to me that many of the folks who recognize downsized workers pleas >for their 'right to a job' as so much bunk are at the same time supporting a >businesses right to start up. A pretty humorous double standard. Not at all comparable. >I have never heard of anyone being arrested for giving away food, only >selling it without a license. I bet the Salvation Army soup kitchen would be >worried if this claim were true (they aren't and it ain't). Then you weren't reading the thread, which in several posts described this very situation. "Food Not Bombs" was giving away soup, chile, and other such stuff at a park in Santa Cruz (and maybe elsewhere, e.g., San Francisco). They were busted. Now do you understand the situation? --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu Fri Aug 2 22:20:01 1996 From: hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu (hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:20:01 +0800 Subject: VISA Travel Money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9608030331.AA07184@Etna.ai.mit.edu> I don't think that VISA travel money will be a major product for VISA. When I spoke with Azbo about it it was not a major strategic direction for them. He described its use by First Bank of Internet (later first Branch of Internet). I think that VISA would LIKE to provide the Ability for travel money, to function as a debit card, but it would then be very close to their existing product of secured payment cards.There are good reasons why aproduct that allows you to draw a specific amount of cash out of ATM's is a good idea for VISA and useful for a small number of customers, but I think you're reading way to much into this. Much more interesting are proposals by the Federal reserve Board, to exempt from regulation E certain types of stored value card provided they store no more than $100. While $500 would seem to me to be a more serious and sensible level while still not having particular money laundering advantage (5 $100 bills is smaller than one smart card) it is at least a start. Phill PS Be willing to bet donuts provided he can suggest a way of delivering them via internet. From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 22:24:03 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:24:03 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers Message-ID: According to KCBS, a local radio station, the FAA has closed a long anticipated deal with a manufacturer of transponder devices. The goal of the system to be deployed nationwide is to match aircraft passengers to their luggage and thereby identify unaccompanied luggage on board an aircraft. Transponders will be affixed to all items of luggage and all passengers. If the system discovers a transponder on the luggage in the cargo hold without the corresponding transponder on the passenger on board, an alarm will sound. I am not making this up. As many of you know, I have long predicted subcutaneous transponders to become widely deployed in the near future. First for child identification and monitoring of criminals, then, as the children grow up, as universal ID, driver license, proof of eligibility for employment, PIN substitute, etc. Today, we moved a step closer to this future. [Note that the transponders will have to be affixed to the passenger. An example would be a hospital style bracelet that stops working when removed. Why embedding the transponder in a hand carried item, such as a card, will not work is left as an exercise to the reader. Even an affixed device does not provide perfect security. You'd really have to embed the transponder in the body at an early age to make removal nearly impossible.] -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 22:25:52 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:25:52 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030132.UAA11308@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 15:36:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sandy Sandfort > Subject: Re: SOUP KITCHENS > > A most distastful example is the complicit silence of gun stores > when the gun grabbers regulate "kitchen table" gun dealers out of > economic existance. Funny, one of my customers is involved in the Texas gun lobby and through him I am aware of literaly hundreds of people who are within a few miles of Austin who have FFL's and have no problem selling weapons off their kitchen table completely legal. Their prices in general are much lower than local stores such as McBrides (the best known in Austin). Jim Choate From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 22:27:33 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:27:33 +0800 Subject: More evidence that democracy is bunk Message-ID: At 3:11 8/2/96, Deranged Mutant wrote: >If they were asked if they minded random searches of their bags and >belongings or required to carry photo-ID wherever they went, to be >presented on demand, would they still be willing? You bet. I remember a war on drugs releated poll from a few years back in which a majority supported warrantless searches of their homes. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 22:28:38 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:28:38 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: At 8:50 8/2/96, Paul J. Bell wrote: >i, for one, and perhaps others on the list as well, would be interested in >hearing >what you mean when you say, "At&t, Microsoft, etc) who are ripping people >off on a >daily basis". > >for example, in what way is AT&T ripping people off? and what about >microsoft? Its up to you what you call it, but here is an interesting example: An international phone call costs about 2 cents/min to produce. The average rate paid for by the consumer is 62 cents. That's means the carriers mark up this particular product by an amazing 3000%. Can you name another business that has comparable mark-ups? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 22:53:12 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:53:12 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030358.WAA11568@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:59:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sandy Sandfort > Subject: Re: Tolerance (fwd) > Here I have to respectfully disagree, totally, with Jim. One > does not have to "reserve" one's rights. They are inherent and > my be exercised pretty much at will (I say "pretty much" because > there are situations where "implied contract" applies). Exactly! Stating a list is 'public' is an inherent contract between the list provider and the subscriber with certain expectations on both parties part. The list provider expects no illegal activity to take place such that they are placed in jeopardy and the subscriber expects to recieve access to a public (ie not regulated by a third party other than themselves and the members en toto) list. Claiming the right to throw somebody off for any reason other than illegal activity nullifies the claim of 'public'. > A restaurant or bookstore is a public place in that it is open > to the public. I know of no state in the union where a bookstore, restaurant, mall, etc. is considered public. In Texas such places make it clear that they are private places and that they reserve the right to refuse service and/or ask you to leave the premises. Legaly a public place is someplace which is operated using public monies. > Nevertheless, without first "reserving the right" > to do so, the owners may tell you to leave if they don't like > the way you sound, look or smell. Because they ain't any more public than my house is on Wednesday nites when I have it open to folks. I assure you that if somebody were to show up smelling or filthy they would be asked to leave and if they refused I would call a police officer and press trespass charges. > Criminal activity is not > required legally nor ethically. Your ejection may, in fact, be > totally arbitrary. I don't see a privately maintained, "public" > list as being philosophically any different. The only way a police officer can expell you from a public place other than for criminal behaviour is if the municipality passes ordinances regarding access (ie open from 7-10 for example in the case of city parks here in Austin) which must apply to ALL citizens equaly not just the vagabonds (I have been thrown out of parks on many occassions and I assure I don't look like a street bum even when I was living on the street in the early 80's - for grins I might add). Jim Choate From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Fri Aug 2 23:03:48 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:03:48 +0800 Subject: AP story: Police look for Olympic bombing Internet link. In-Reply-To: <9608030114.AA03672@ch1d157nwk> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Andrew Loewenstern wrote: > [Not From Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 19:09:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sandy Sandfort > Subject: Re: A Libertine Question (fwd) > > > A reasonable person recognizes that such a business has two ways > > of fulfilling its responsiblities. They can either submit to > > regulation and quality control from the local municipality or > > else they can hang signs about their place of business declaring > > "Caveat Emptor: Our food may be tainted, eat at your own risk". > > Which do you think is the more reasonable? > > It would be nice if businesses were offered that choice. I would > choose the second, myself. Only my sign would say, "Our food is > guaranteed not tainted by the Acme insurance company, not some > corrupt government." The problem is, governments do not allow > businesses nor consumers to make that sort of choice. With them > it's, "my way or the highway" (or harassment and jail actually). And any insurance company with a whit of sense would charge you rates so high that your much touted small vendors and many of the medium sized vendors currently in business would not exist. You think governments are bad? Wait till you see a bunch of bean counters racing a profit margin. In such a situation we wouldn't even have the opportunity for input into the system via constitutions, charters, and votes. Just imagine how much support a Japanese insurance company would provide its clients in regards to the current epidemic in Japan, absolutely none because it is better the little vendor go out of business than the insurance company. > Until Jim shows me a business that isn't owned and operated by > people, I'll have to respectfully disagree. Businesses are just > people acting alone or in concert. Actions are what count, not > whether the action is of a pecuniary nature or not. I own 2 businesses (CyberTects & Linux System Development Labs) and work for another (Tivoli - IBM), none are equivalent to my person. Businesses are a system of rules and procedures that one offers another person in exchange for some other commodity. Saying a business has the same rights as a person is equivalent to saying the Empire State Bldg. has civil rights because persons built it and occupy it. My dog has a better argument for civil rights than any business, it breaths and shits. Would you seriously give my dog a vote? I shure won't, and I won't support any business with rights. Jim Choate From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 23:07:47 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:07:47 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030210.VAA11373@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 14:10:55 -0700 > From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) > Subject: Re: SOUP KITCHENS > > (Fortunately, people survive all kinds of dirt and germs. If dogs and cats > can eat stuff off the floor, and our ancestors did before hot water, soap, > and autoclaves, then so can we. Not to mention children. But I digress.) True enough, but not the whole story. If a dog or cat is kept well and fed good quality food they live 10+ years. The average life of an animal on the street is between 2-5 years. As to people, we now live around 75-80 years, prior to all these rules and regulations on food and such the average was 20-25. If we go back to what you propose you would be dead a long time ago. > The use of zoning and health code ordnances to harass certain classes of > people is nothing new. Like I said, the Boy Scout Cookout and similar > "good" events are not bothered by City Inspectors descending on them to > shut them down. In my experience they don't get hassled because they get the requisite permits and act in good faith. Many of these small businesses and street vendors are 'hassled' because they are unwilling or unable to meet basic commen sense standards of conduct and go out of there way to circumvent regulations and in some cases commen sense. I have a friend who worked at a local strip club on N. Lamar (Yellow something...) up until a few weeks ago. Seems one of the workers there turned a freezer off and as a result some meat was tainted. Did they throw it out? Hell no, they went ahead and served it because to do othewise would effect their profit margin. My (and by extension your) life is not worth a few measly bucks. My friend complained bitterly and when they went ahead and did it he quit and filed a complaint with the local health dept. (I am completely unaware of the result but the club is still open). I once got food poisoning from a Vietnamese food vendor on the West Mall at UT Austin and complained and called the Health Dept. Last time I was down on The Drag (the popular name of the street) the same vendor was still in business and this was over 10 years later. And for the record I have bought food there, I have just become more careful about its taste and quality. > Further, in time past the operation of a "street food" service (hot dogs, > ice cream, various knoshing items, etc.) was a way for otherwise poor > persons to start a business. My own city, Santa Cruz, has no pushcart > vendors, and only one officially-approved sidewalk hotdog vendor. A loss > for us, a loss for would-be vendors, and with no gain in "food safety" that > I can plausible see. Why do they prohibit permits for these types of businesses? > I actually think this shows another side of the harassment of food > giveaways and low-cost vendors: it cuts down on competition with the > established food entities. While I tend to dismiss "corporate conspiracy" > theories about how Giant Corporations are repressing and suppressing the > Little Guys, there is little doubt that licensing, zoning, and other > governmental restrictions are often used by established entities to keep > out competition. Licenses get used for what economists call "rent-seeking" > behavior. You should be more careful about who you pick to represent you then when you vote. Here in Austin back in the 80's the big thing was to move the airport out of town. So many of the public officials rushed out and bought land near the little town outside Austin in the hopes that the airport would be moved there. It was so bad we had many elections where the citizenry voted not to move the airport and the city council went ahead with the actions anyway. Finaly a few years ago the feds closed Bergston the local airbase and the entire rationale for moving the airport fell through and now all those people have retired from local political actions because they are all broke. > (Examples abound in other areas, too, such as where large chip companies > like Intel actually relish the vast amounts of paperwork they are required > to fill out, becuase this overhead and legal burden can be handled by their > buildings full of paper pushers, but helps to keep small companies from > entering the market. Intel has actually insisted that small companies file > the same environmental impact reports, labor reports, etc., that they have > to fill out. Understandable at one level, but also an example of using "the > system" to put pressure on upstarts. Or, the rent-seeking of professional > guilds, well-known to all of us.) I personaly find it reassuring that some bunch of knuckle-heads are unable to start a chip making facility like you support. The thought of finding flourine compounds in the local river (where I get my tap water) or simply dumped in the air is a little unsettling. Just because some group of bozo's want to start a business is not sufficient justification for that to be allowed. It seems to me that many of the folks who recognize downsized workers pleas for their 'right to a job' as so much bunk are at the same time supporting a businesses right to start up. A pretty humorous double standard. Persons don't have a right to work and businesses do not have a right to start up unless they can meet reasonable levels of responsibility for their actions. People and by extension businesses do not have the right to harm others without their prior consent. As an extension of this, people have a right to limit the ways and means that a business may use in order to operate. > As to Alan Horowitz's bizarre notion that "public streets" are not to be > used for giving away food, I have never heard of anyone being arrested for giving away food, only selling it without a license. I bet the Salvation Army soup kitchen would be worried if this claim were true (they aren't and it ain't). > does he believe the same to be true of giving > away speech, giving away ideas, passing books to other people, etc.? "There > are bookstores for selling or buying books, and anyone who engages in this > sort of action on a public street will have his attitude adjusted with my > billy club." I am unaware of any municipality which prohibits giving away books, they regulate bookstores because they are a business and engaged in commerce. If you are aware of a municipality (or any list reader for that matter) I would appreciate being informed (ie mail me privately). > "Public" areas cause problems for analysis of rights, I will grant. The > "commons problem" is well known. But I think that the specific cases we've > been discussing, of whacking bums with nightsticks for the crime of not > maintaining "proper decorum," and of Food Not Bombs being shut down while > the Boy Scouts are not, are clear cases where the law is being misapplied. And your argument that a business should have the same rights and considerations as a human being is bogus. If that were true then by extensio governments would have rights, which they don't. Unless you breath and shit you don't have rights, only duties and responsibilities assigned by the persons who built the system. A structure is not equivalent by any stretch of the imagination as the person(s) who built it. Jim Choate From mpd at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 23:07:56 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:07:56 +0800 Subject: More evidence that democracy is bunk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608030410.VAA16970@netcom9.netcom.com> Lucky Green wrote: > At 3:11 8/2/96, Deranged Mutant wrote: > > >If they were asked if they minded random searches of their bags and > >belongings or required to carry photo-ID wherever they went, to be > >presented on demand, would they still be willing? > You bet. I remember a war on drugs releated poll from a few years > back in which a majority supported warrantless searches of their homes. RAW was fond of pointing out that in spite of the current love of democratic government, free societies are actually infrequent and short-lived blips on the historical landscape. Something about basic human nature and "all you have to do is rock the boat a little and the people will beg the government to take their rights away." Since the government is usually in the best position to do any necessary cage-rattling, perpetual freedom is an illusory concept. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 2 23:10:34 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:10:34 +0800 Subject: VISA Travel Money In-Reply-To: <3202AC0F.41C6@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Hallam-Baker wrote: > They [VISA Travel Money cards] are usefull for the one purpose > for which they are designed. One can go off to a foreign > country and obtain cash... Agreed, but does anyone have any reason to believe that these cards cannot now (or perhaps will) be used just like regular VISA cards for purchases in stores, restaurants, etc.? I have two VISA debit cards in my name which can be used anywhere VISA credit cards are accepted. The VISA Travel Money card appears to be nothing more than a debit card that is tied to a special sub-account at the issuing bank rather that the account of a named individual. At least where the retail establishment has an on-line credit card terminal, the risks and protections should be equivalent to a regular debit card. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the VISA Travel Money cards will be usable just like VISA credit and debit cards within the next 2-3 years. My guess is that they are just going slow to see what sort of reception the Money cards get. S a n d y P.S. Phil should realize that my offer to bet dollars against donuts was not a serious wager. It will not be necessary, therefore, for him to come up with some elaborate rationale to weasle out of the bet. :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From alano at teleport.com Fri Aug 2 23:12:23 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:12:23 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960803040230.00ef56f4@mail.teleport.com> At 08:28 PM 8/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >Its up to you what you call it, but here is an interesting example: > >An international phone call costs about 2 cents/min to produce. The average >rate paid for by the consumer is 62 cents. That's means the carriers mark >up this particular product by an amazing 3000%. > >Can you name another business that has comparable mark-ups? Verisign? InterNic Domain name registration? Licence plates in Washington state? --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 23:17:10 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:17:10 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > illegal to operate a residential kitchen and a residential sewge-disposal > > operation in a city park or a city sidewalk? > As long as you are enforcing it on everyone, I don't think you'd have a > problem Let's clarify something here. I am not complaining about these fruitcakes who want to help the homeless retain their drug & alcohol stupors, by taking care of them the way one takes care of a child - buying the food, cooking the food, putting the food on their plate, etc. I anm referring to the homeless people who stake out "their" peice of a publicly owned real estate, and set up a continuing residence - cardboard or better box, ersatz cooking facilities, etc, etc. And then start acting out their own particular psychoses. Which typically involves accosting passersby, or worse. Ya know, if these homeless folks were even doing this stuff with decorum, and not making disturbances and assaulting people, I for one wouldn't give a shit. Some may recall, as I do, the report in the New York Times a few years ago about a chap who set up household 30 feet up in a tree in Central Park. He was living there for 2 years before the Park Rangers noticed and then evicted him. The fellow had several rooms, and even running water. Don't ask me how. I admire that dude. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 2 23:27:26 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:27:26 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <199608030426.VAA19121@toad.com> At 09:20 AM 8/1/96 -0800, jim bell reminded us: >Also: Clipper was fabbed by VLSI Technology. A few pointed inquiries might >work wonders here. It was made by Mykotronx, using tamperproof programmable gate array chips from VLSI, though I don't remember whether they were entirely programmed at Mykotronx+NSA, or whether they were mostly mask-programmed at VLSI first. On the other hand, if you _want_ to make a DES-cracker, at the time Clipper came out, VLSI was making a 192Mbps DES chip, and they may have faster stuff now. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Rescind Authority! From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 2 23:35:57 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:35:57 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608030328.UAA11944@mail.pacifier.com> At 07:48 PM 8/2/96 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > and black and smokeless powder taggants. Such materials will be easy to defeat. Find an indoor shooting range, vacuum up the powder residue that falls in front of the shooting stalls, and you'll have a concentrated mixture of literally hundreds of types of taggants. Add to bomb. Laughing, at this point, is optional. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 2 23:36:27 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:36:27 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) Message-ID: At 21:10 8/2/96, Jim Choate wrote: >In my experience they don't get hassled because they get the requisite >permits and act in good faith. Many of these small businesses and street >vendors are 'hassled' because they are unwilling or unable to meet basic >commen sense standards of conduct and go out of there way to circumvent >regulations and in some cases commen sense. Jim, I was there when Food Not Bombs got busted in San Francisco. They tried to get a permit from the Health Department, but the HD refused to even process the application. FNB finally won the case. I guess next time the HD will be smarter, process the application and deny it. At present, SF has a hands-off policy in regards to Food Not Bombs. The feeding was never the real issue. The heavy political indoctrination that came with it was. Patrick McHenry handed out the food, screaming in a mike, in front of the Federal Building (without interfering with pedestrians in any way) as the Feds came out on their lunch hour, having to listen to him complain about President Bush's CIA background, calling Bush a drug dealer, and demanding to know why there was no money for food when there was plenty of money for nukes. Now can we please let this thread (at least on the list) die? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 23:43:36 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:43:36 +0800 Subject: VISA Travel Money In-Reply-To: <3202AC0F.41C6@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: Where does one buy these Visa debit cards. Great idea for travel in the Philippines, where ATM's are widespread but Travellors checks are not very negotiable. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 23:51:21 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:51:21 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030343.WAA11512@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:01:41 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > Subject: Re: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) > > > to yourself. The burden of proof rests on the individual to prove that such > > actions by a third party are a public nuisance. > > Bzzt, wrong anser. Thanks for playing. A state and it's political > subdivisions does have the power to enact an ordinance DEFINING what > constitutes a public nuisance. They need merely protect > constitutionally-protected rights. States don't enact ordinances, they enact laws. An ordinance is a regulation which applies in a local municipality regulated by a charter. Laws are enacted by a state or federal government regulated by a constitution. A trivial distinction I agree. I would be willing to accept the premise that in practice such terms are equivalent. They have the right to enact such ordinances if their charter permits. No community, state, or federal government in the US is given carte blanche in regards to the creation of laws, regulation, and ordinances. If you live in a state which permits the state government to enact such laws then you have my sympathy. At least here in Texas the state government is not given that job. It is left to the individual municipalities to define public nuisance. Here in Austin the homeless were allowed to sleep at the capitol because it is public property. Sad to say, that day is dead. I oppose those changes as well. I believe it would be a good thing if more of our public representatives had to face the homeless and other unpleasantries in modern life on a personal and daily basis. They might be motivated to get off their asses and serve the people instead of their campaign contributors. Which constitution? The Federal government is tasked with upholding the Constitution, not the states. The states are tasked with upholding their individual Constitution provided they don't conflict with federal laws. Municipalities are tasked with upholding their charters unless at odds with the state or federal constitutions. You make it sound like my local city council person is responsible for the Constitution, they are not any more than I am. > The City of Seattle may not define the act of disseminating anonymous > pamphlets as a nuisance. They may define the act of dissemination by > throwing them out the window of a moving vehicle, as a nuisance. I would call it littering. There is litte reason to expect people to pick up pamphlets from the middle of the street. As to handing them out, that is protected. If the person you hand it to throws it down on the ground then they are littering. It is called personal responsibility and respect for oneself. From this springs respect for others. > YOu are disconnected from reality. I am not going to waste further > keystrokes on this topic. My side already controls the electoral college > on this one. It's not my problem. I may be disconnected from your reality, but reality is observer dependant. But it is your problem because 'your' side is aging and my generation is just now coming into power (ie eligable to run for president and such). With a little luck we might be able to make a difference. All those people out there you look down upon living in the streets with mohawks and rings through their clits listening to Pigface and Skinny Puppy get to make the decisions now. My suggestion to those who support the status quo is to run, run very fast. We are the ones your mother warned you about. Were pissed off enough that we aren't going to use violence and such, we intend to use your own system of rules against you. Ravage Black Leather Monster From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 23:53:41 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:53:41 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030308.WAA11470@einstein> Message-ID: Corporations are state-created persons [legal definition of "person", not colloquial vernacular]. They have some privileges which have surface resmblence to the rights of natural people. For example, they can "have standing" in a court to initiate a legal proceeding - in their own name, not that of an agent or employee or trustee. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Aug 2 23:57:12 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:57:12 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030514.AAA11685@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:33:20 -0700 > From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) > Subject: Re: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) > > >In my experience they don't get hassled because they get the requisite > >permits and act in good faith. Many of these small businesses and street > >vendors are 'hassled' because they are unwilling or unable to meet basic > >commen sense standards of conduct and go out of there way to circumvent > >regulations and in some cases commen sense. > > I was there when Food Not Bombs got busted in San Francisco. They tried to > get a permit from the Health Department, but the HD refused to even process > the application. FNB finally won the case. I guess next time the HD will be > smarter, process the application and deny it. At present, SF has a > hands-off policy in regards to Food Not Bombs. What exactly was the reason for the refusal to process the form? At that point the FNB folks should have started a suite against the city and not gone to the park. If they did they should have been very careful about advertising the HD's refusal and making it clear that their presence and actions there were a form of political disobedience. There are good ways to tweak a nose and there are bad ways. Sounds like these folks chose a bad way to begin with. I am glad to hear that justice won out in the end. I bet next time the HD just processes the form. Is the person in charge of the HD elected or appointed? If appointed than start a suite against them as well as the department. > The feeding was never the real issue. The heavy political indoctrination > that came with it was. Patrick McHenry handed out the food, screaming in a > mike, in front of the Federal Building (without interfering with > pedestrians in any way) as the Feds came out on their lunch hour, having to > listen to him complain about President Bush's CIA background, calling Bush > a drug dealer, and demanding to know why there was no money for food when > there was plenty of money for nukes. I would have gone back the next day w/ a larger amp. > Now can we please let this thread (at least on the list) die? Certainly. Jim Choate From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 23:57:21 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:57:21 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We must always look at the legal definition of words. If I _give_ a joint, I can be charged with sale of a controlled substance. That no money changed hands is irrelevant. From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 2 23:57:24 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:57:24 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030343.WAA11512@einstein> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > But it is your problem because 'your' side is aging and my generation is just > now coming into power (ie eligable to run for president and such). With a Why am I having these flashbacks to the Clinton Campaign promises of 1992 about there existing a young man who is a "New Democrat", a white house that will have the highest-ever level of ethics, etc, etc, etc. From roger at coelacanth.com Sat Aug 3 00:04:59 1996 From: roger at coelacanth.com (Roger Williams) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:04:59 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960802234117.006acb90@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: >>>>> Cerridwyn Llewyellyn writes: >> One should understand that monitoring cellular traffic is *much* >> more difficult than tapping a conventional phone... > I'd have to disagree on that point. Monitoring cellular traffic > requires nothing more than a cellular phone, and some software > which enables you to follow calls through the cells, for a total > cost of about $500... Agreed. I know that this capability was available to organisations at the level of the State Police over ten years ago, and has long been available to anyone with a credit card and the ability to read the adverts in the back of _Police Chief_ magazine... -- Roger Williams finger me for my PGP public key Coelacanth Engineering consulting & turnkey product development Middleborough, MA wireless * DSP-based instrumentation * ATE tel +1 508 947-8049 * fax +1 508 947-9118 * http://www.coelacanth.com/ From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 00:07:55 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:07:55 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030545.AAA11749@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:13:14 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > Subject: Re: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) > > > But it is your problem because 'your' side is aging and my generation is just > > now coming into power (ie eligable to run for president and such). With a > > Why am I having these flashbacks to the Clinton Campaign promises of 1992 > about there existing a young man who is a "New Democrat", a white house > that will have the highest-ever level of ethics, etc, etc, etc. My first guess is that you were taking LSD back then but then I wasn't there. The second guess would be because you didn't read very carefuly. I said nothing about highest-ethics or any other such promises of behaviour or action. I think you are reading more into my statement than is there. I simply said that some of my generation plan on using the rules against the establishment. I consider that a subtle but important difference. Jim Choate From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 00:09:23 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:09:23 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030542.AAA11740@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:03:43 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > Subject: Re: A Libertine Question (fwd) > > Corporations are state-created persons [legal definition of "person", not > colloquial vernacular]. They have some privileges which have surface > resmblence to the rights of natural people. For example, they can "have > standing" in a court to initiate a legal proceeding - in their own name, > not that of an agent or employee or trustee. Exactly, 'surface resemblance'. The Constitution at no point mentions businesses in respect to the rights of the individual which is where all discussions must start from in this government. For example, some folks have claimed that corporations have rights that prevent warantless searches and such. I have to strongly disagree. I see no rational way to extend this to a corporation. If the police must use a warrant to search a business located other than in a persons home or on their property it is because the people who are present on that premisis have rights and those rights would be infringed by such searches. I am not even shure I accept the legal premise of corporations. The amendment say: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Jim Choate From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 00:12:17 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:12:17 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030546.AAA11760@einstein> Forwarded message: > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Sat Aug 3 00:38:30 1996 > Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:06:55 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > To: "Timothy C. May" > cc: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) > In-Reply-To: > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Precedence: bulk > > We must always look at the legal definition of words. If I _give_ a > joint, I can be charged with sale of a controlled substance. That no > money changed hands is irrelevant. > Wrong, you can be charged with distribution, not sales. Jim Choate From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Sat Aug 3 00:24:51 1996 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:24:51 +0800 Subject: crypto CD source Message-ID: <199608030547.RAA30464@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> >Some time ago on the list there was some discussion of putting together a CD >full of cryptographic software and reference material. Nothing came of it, but >I think several people expressed an interest I have about 100MB (compressed) of crypto archives, papers, source code, etc etc, reasonably well organised with descriptions of each file. I've got a friend to put it on CD, but only for my own use. If there's someone who can get them done in bulk outside the US you could probably use this as a crypto CD (I don't think there's anyone in NZ who could do it, and I don't really want the hassle of organising the whole thing). Peter. From sandfort at crl.com Sat Aug 3 00:31:54 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:31:54 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030358.WAA11568@einstein> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > Stating a list is 'public' is an inherent contract between the list > provider and the subscriber with certain expectations on both parties part. > The list provider expects no illegal activity to take place such that they > are placed in jeopardy and the subscriber expects to recieve access to a > public (ie not regulated by a third party other than themselves and the > members en toto) list. Claiming the right to throw somebody off for any > reason other than illegal activity nullifies the claim of 'public'. A. Where does Jim get the terms of the contract he implies from the simple word "public"? As far as I can see, he simply made it up from whole cloth. Interesting, but totally without any legal basis. B. I'm unaware that the Cypherpunks list has ever been advertised as "public" by the list owner. C. Combining A & B, I know of know instance where the owners of the Cypherpunks list ever made any indication that they were adhearing to the Byzantine interpretation of contract law as suggested by Jim. (It sure doesn't comport to what I learned in my Contracts classes.) > > A restaurant or bookstore is a public place in that it is open > > to the public. > > I know of no state in the union where a bookstore, restaurant, > mall, etc. is considered public. Actually, it's the law in ALL states in the union since the Public Accomidations Act was enacted some time in the '60s (with the possible exception of Texas, I guess). > Legaly a public place is someplace which is operated using > public monies. Like the Cypherpunks list? Citation, please. The problem with Jim is not that he doesn't know anything, but rather that he knows so many things that aren't true. (But I would not favor enforcing the state granted monopoly on the practice of law if Jim wants to hang out his shingle. If he can get someone to pay him for legal advice, more power to him, but /caveat emptor/.) S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ppw3 at everett.com Sat Aug 3 00:35:10 1996 From: ppw3 at everett.com (Paul Wittry) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:35:10 +0800 Subject: Why Fingerprints and Key-ID's Message-ID: <199608030439.VAA00131@post.everett.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Cypherpunks, I understand PGP Open-Signed messages and why they are used. I've read all the FAQ's. I can't seem to figure out why some of us put our Fingerprints and/or Key-ID's at the end of messages. The answer to my question is probably in a FAQ somewhere and I'm missing it, I learn best by watching (visually) or by doing (experientially) so I'm having a little trouble learning from documentation. In any case, if someone would spend a little time to explain, or point me in the right direction, I would be grateful. Thanks, Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgLPl8498OZoTL5VAQFcrwP+JNK8K0cQFdU8+//GQQvj2Z3hn7gTgTeH SRHosvwj5xNmR5pB9h8FlQillZ+OQEeEF+/z75+fqyK9AD68i+F0c0bymj1vJ6zR zQnjUsIh/VBKLAvrmnmf08E4uWo2wdJrsjBtRkvShmMWHOBxsp5dReDrsVNPRHtK Pp1zqTLUBpk= =1kJ1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ___________________________________________________________________________ Paul Wittry, Visual Artist, Philosopher, Poet|"A poet is a dethroned king Internet: |sitting among the ashes of Homepage: |his palace trying to form an PGP Public Key=Finger: |image from out of the ashes." Please, encrypt your messages!!!! |_______________Kalil Gibran__ From sandfort at crl.com Sat Aug 3 00:44:43 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:44:43 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030308.WAA11470@einstein> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > And any insurance company with a whit of sense would charge you rates so > high that your much touted small vendors and many of the medium sized > vendors currently in business would not exist. You think governments are > bad? Wait till you see a bunch of bean counters racing a profit margin. In > such a situation we wouldn't even have the opportunity for input into the > system via constitutions, charters, and votes. Just imagine how much support > a Japanese insurance company would provide its clients in regards to the > current epidemic in Japan, absolutely none because it is better the little > vendor go out of business than the insurance company. Apparently Jim does not understand that the "race for profit margin" is what LOWERS the prices of goods and services. You might check out HUMAN ACTION by von Mises. Anyway, as I said in my previous post. > > It would be nice if businesses were offered that choice I'm confident that the market solution would be far cheaper and less violent they injecting the coercive state apparatus into a volutary transactions between PEOPLE. > I own 2 businesses...none are equivalent to my person. So? They are owned and operated by people. > Businesses are a system of rules and procedures... Made and enforced by PEOPLE. Jim is begging the question. > Would you seriously give my dog a vote? Gee, I don't know your dog. His understanding of economics couldn't be much more rudimentary. (Okay, it was a cheap shot, but it was a silly question.) S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 00:52:27 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:52:27 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030617.BAA11822@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:05:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sandy Sandfort > Subject: Re: A Libertine Question (fwd) > > > And any insurance company with a whit of sense would charge you rates so > > high that your much touted small vendors and many of the medium sized > > vendors currently in business would not exist. You think governments are > > bad? Wait till you see a bunch of bean counters racing a profit margin. In > > such a situation we wouldn't even have the opportunity for input into the > > system via constitutions, charters, and votes. Just imagine how much support > > a Japanese insurance company would provide its clients in regards to the > > current epidemic in Japan, absolutely none because it is better the little > > vendor go out of business than the insurance company. > > Apparently Jim does not understand that the "race for profit > margin" is what LOWERS the prices of goods and services. You > might check out HUMAN ACTION by von Mises. Anyway, as I said in > my previous post. Really? Then would you mind explaining why costs rise over time instead of going down? Compare the cost of almost anything over time and what happens? The price goes up. Insurance has become involved in the medical industry, what happened? The cost has gone through the roof. The airplane industry was deregulated in the late 70's, what happened? The price of a ticket went up and more and more airlines went out of business because of lagging sales. In many states (such as Texas) insurance was made mandatory, what happened? The cost of automobile insurance went up. The telephone companies were broken up and 'privatized' in the 80's and what happened? The cost of phone service has gone up and the rate of new service introduction has gone down. In almost any case you care to mention where a monopoly or near-monopoly market exists and is deregulated the cost of operation has gone up. > > > It would be nice if businesses were offered that choice > > I'm confident that the market solution would be far cheaper and > less violent they injecting the coercive state apparatus into a > volutary transactions between PEOPLE. If this is so then by your own argument, business are operated by people therefor they are people, the government should conform to this model since it is operated by people also (by your argument). Therefore governments have rights (clearly incorrect). Governments have duties and responsibilities, under our Constitution the government is given no right. As a matter of fact if there is a disagreement or unclear point the 10th says specificaly that the government does not get to resolve it but rather the states or the people. Clearly the founding fathers were drawing a distinction between the people operating a system and the system itself. > > I own 2 businesses...none are equivalent to my person. > > So? They are owned and operated by people. Yes, but they are not people any more than my ownership and operation of my motor vehicle makes it a person. Is your contention that because I own and operate a computer it should be given rights? This is sorta funny, I can see it now... "Your honor we would like to call Mr. Choate's 1985 Mustang to the stand to give testimony." "Mr. Choate's 1986 Mustang, you have been found guilty of speeding and reckless driving." Hey, come to think of it, this would make a great defence for many things. "But your honor, my automobile has rights and is considered a person, therefore you can't hold me responsible for running over those six nuns and two infants. I was simply along for the ride. The only reason that I was in the vehicle was that I was afraid to open the door and jump at 120 MPH." Yup, I definately like where this is going... I can see a cop reading my computer it's Miranda and waiting till Hell freezes over for a positive responce. Just think, all those dead cars...er persons...in the auto...er people-crusher... We should bring those monsters up on charges for killing people. Talk about mass murder. > > Businesses are a system of rules and procedures... > > Made and enforced by PEOPLE. Jim is begging the question. Which question would that be? "Should businesses be considered people with the same rights and priviliges?" If so then it is clearly a negative answer. The Constitution does not accept that premise and the law does not accept that premise. If a business is found guilty of wrong doing do they put it in jail? No, they put the persons involved in jail. Clearly the courts are drawing a distinction between a system and those who operate it. Does the constitution ever mention business or commercial enterprise in equality with persons? Does this equality mean that I need to go the courthouse and get a DBA in order to legaly exist in Texas as a business must? Consider my dog, Reef, she is owned and operated by a person (I feed her, walk her, clean up her messes, teach her tricks, even kill her if I choose - though I can't be cruel to her) does this mean she is a person? Sounds like the original proposition, that businesses should be awarded the same rights as people because they are owned and operated by people, is a reduction to absurtity. > > Would you seriously give my dog a vote? > > Gee, I don't know your dog. His understanding of economics > couldn't be much more rudimentary. (Okay, it was a cheap > shot, but it was a silly question.) If I may, I would like to use a quote from the Transformers movie, "You obviously don't understand the situation then." Tata. Jim Choate From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Aug 3 00:55:39 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:55:39 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... Message-ID: <199608030552.WAA18439@mail.pacifier.com> At 01:11 PM 8/2/96 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >At 18:29 8/1/96, Timothy C. May wrote: > >>(With the Internet Phone deals--even Intel is entering the market--why are >>there no widespread uses of PGP or S/MIME? Yes, I know about about PGPhone, >>and also the Nautilus product, but none seem to be used by anyone I know. >>Maybe we should spend some time talking about the practical realities of >>these tools.) > >The sound quality really isn't there, unless you have a fast machine or a >fat pipe. In addition, the vast majority of Intel based computers lack the >crucial (for user acceptance) full-duplex soundcard. Add to that the >physical impossibility of getting decent real time services over a >non-isochronous network, such as the Internet, I'net phones just don't >provide suffcient speech quality for business/serious personal use even >without the added overhead of crypto. Which reminds me... If there is any function Cypherpunks (and/or cyberpunks) should perform, it's one of using a "bully pulpit" to influence technical developments. Consider, for example, your observation that "the vast majority of Intel based computers lack the crucual full-duplex soundcard." When I first heard that this was true, I wondered what bunch of nincompoops were responsible for this outrage. There are many potential uses for soundcards which require full-duplex operation. Only the most stupid and basic functions don't. There was no good reason for this lack; Presumably if somebody had been at the right place at the right time, he could have reminded that shit-for-brains "engineer" of the obvious consequences of building a product with such an egregious bug designed into it. Anyway, that's water under the bridge. However, we're probably all in agreement that Internet telephone (non-encrypted as well as encrypted) is going to be a big product in just a few years. This will require (or desire) a few high-CPU-power functions: 1. A modem, obviously. 2. Good encryption, possibly. 3. Audio A/D and D/A, and associated compression functions. I propose that the better way of implementing it, rather than going through a sound card, is for modem manufacturers to built an new modem with an extra telephone connection (perhaps the same physical connector that's currently used for the telephone handset) which goes to an ordinary telephone and does the audio A/D and D/A conversion, as well as the data compression/data expansion function that will be necessary. The latter function would be done by an extra DSP on this modem/Internet telephone card. Briefly, you'd talk into an ordinary telephone on your desk, which would be connected to the modem/telephone card. That card would digitize your speech to whatever level of resolution is practical, and compress it into an appropriate data rate. This data would either be encrypted by the same DSP, or possibly presented to the host CPU for encryption. From there, it would be sent to the modem section and transmitted over the telephone line. I think this would be superior to the use of a sound card, for a number of reasons. First, obviously, is the reduction in cards in simple and/or portable systems. To require that you have both a modem and a sound card (as well as a cpu) to implement an Internet telephone is unreasonable. Secondly, using a sound card (which can't do any compression) requires that you implement both the compresssion and encryption function with the host processor, which might be impractical for a low-cost processor like a '486. Putting a substantial portion of this function into a dedicated DSP means that main-processor overhead becomes minimal. Third, implementing a "flow-through" telephone circuit allows you to interpose this encryptor into an existing telephone system, such as that of a house or office. The existing handsets can be used with no modification, presumably. This would also allow easy implementation of a computer-controlled answering machine-type, because the computer will be able to digitize/synthesize audio as well as record it. It could also implement fax and modem/bbs functions. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 3 01:15:33 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:15:33 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The feeding was never the real issue. The heavy political indoctrination > that came with it was. Patrick McHenry handed out the food, screaming in a > mi[crophone of an amplified public address system] If this isn't disturbing the peace, I don't know what is. Patrick McHenry wasn't interested in the homeless, _for their sake_. He was using them as a pawn to act out his own neurotic vision of "social activism". If there hadn't been any homeless in the city, Patrick McHenry would have latched onto some other - any other - issue. It's the screaming into the microphone that he wants. From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 3 01:31:37 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:31:37 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030542.AAA11740@einstein> Message-ID: > I am not even shure I accept the legal premise of corporations. - Jim Choate This is NOT a drill. This is an actual pop quiz, in which Jim Choate is directed to tell us about the legal premise of incorporation. Jim, do you know anything about what you are talking about. Looking it up is not allowed. P.S. could you humor me on one tiny little thing? Can we agree that that the word shall be spelled "sure", not "shure", on this list? I don't want to trample on your artistic vision or anything like that, but could we just agree on this one tiny little thing From sandfort at crl.com Sat Aug 3 01:32:05 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:32:05 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030617.BAA11822@einstein> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Jim Choate's dog wrote: > Really? Then would you mind explaining why costs rise over time > instead of going down? Gladly. Prices rise over time because of inflation of the money supply. While it is possible for private actors to temporarily inflate the money supply (e.g., extension of credit by banks), only the government can increase the money supply indefinitely. Inflation is the most insidious form of "taxation." It steals silently and punishes the savings in favor of consumption. > Insurance has become involved in the medical industry, what > happened? The cost has gone through the roof. The airplane > industry was deregulated in the late 70's, what happened? The > price of a ticket went up...yada yada yada. Technically, Jim's logical fallacy is called /post hoc, ergo propter hoc/, after this, therefore on account of this. > If this is so then by your own argument, business are operated > by people therefor they are people... Nope, that's not what I said. This fallacy is called a "straw man." It is a weak or mistated opposing argument set up by a politician or debator, etc., in order that he may attack it and gain an easy, showy victory. Since you have mistated my position, the balance of your argument is irrelevant. (But thanks for playing.) > Is your contention that because I own and > operate a computer it should be given rights? Nope. Whatever gave you that idea? > > > Businesses are a system of rules and procedures... > > > > Made and enforced by PEOPLE. Jim is begging the question. > > Which question would that be? "Should businesses be considered > people with the same rights and priviliges?" Nope. You just don't get it, do you? > Sounds like the original proposition, that businesses should be > awarded the same rights as people because they are owned and > operated by people, is a reduction to absurtity. More straw men. From what orfice was that proposition pulled? > If I may, I would like to use a quote from the Transformers > movie, Could these be the source of Jim's legal and economic knowledge? You be the judge. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 3 01:32:54 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:32:54 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps Message-ID: <199608030650.XAA21091@toad.com> At 01:52 AM 8/2/96 -0700, daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) wrote: >> would dramatically change surveillance authority to include wiretaps of >> INDIVIDUALS instead of LOCATIONS. >I don't get it. Help me out here-- how can this possibly be constitutional? [CENSORED MATERIAL DELETED] You've been hanging out with those subversive Canadians again, haven't you? It's covered by the Terrorism Exception to the 4th Amendment.* >P.S. Do police really need a search warrant to wiretap cellular phones? Do you mean legally? :-) Some combination of laws and court decisions has established that cordless phones don't provide an expectation of privacy, but cellular phones do, so eavesdropping on cellular phones requires wiretapping authorization (whether a warrant, FISA permission, or whatever other procedures constitute Due Process.) ----------------------------------- * The Drug Exception to the 4th Amendment says ", except for drugs, of course." The Terrorism Exception says "Be afraid. Be very afraid." ----------------------------------- # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 3 01:36:22 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:36:22 +0800 Subject: Liberating Clipper Stuff from Mykotronx Dumpsters Message-ID: At 4:24 AM 8/3/96, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 09:20 AM 8/1/96 -0800, jim bell reminded us: >>Also: Clipper was fabbed by VLSI Technology. A few pointed inquiries might >>work wonders here. > >It was made by Mykotronx, using tamperproof programmable gate >array chips from VLSI, though I don't remember whether they were >entirely programmed at Mykotronx+NSA, or whether they were >mostly mask-programmed at VLSI first. By the way, newcomers to the list (I'm not referring to Bill, of course) may not know some of the background on this Mykotronx story. An interesting use of remailers, too. One of the early list subscribers went "Dumpster-diving" outside the Torrance, CA headquarters of Mykotronx, a previously little-known defense subcontractor. Amongst the stuff in the Dumpster, unshredded, he found: - payroll information - copies of contracts with VLSI Technology, the NSA, AT&T, etc., showing the work to have started back in the early 90s - yield information on the chips, and some limited test information - copies of various memoranda between AT&T, the NSA, the FBI, Mykotronx, Sandia, and VLSI Technology - a bunch of other goodies He scanned or typed this stuff he found into a text file and sent it to one of the earliest members of the Cypherpunks list, asking for it to be passed on to someone who could do something with it. A few hours later, via anonymous remailer posting, it went out to the several hundred subscribers to the Cypherpunks list at that time. (It's somewhere in the archives, such as they are. This would be around late April, 1993, possibly May-June.) I later heard that Mykotronx was mightily embarrassed to have this kind of stuff found in Dumpsters out where anyone could find it, and that "the authorities" ordered a tightening up of security. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 3 01:44:23 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:44:23 +0800 Subject: Jim Bell, stay out of Georgia.... Message-ID: <199608030708.AAA21521@toad.com> At 09:54 AM 8/2/96 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >>> JONESBORO, Ga. -- An 18-year-old self-styled anarchist who allegedly >>> distributed a free, homemade pamphlet with anti-government rhetoric >>> has been charged with advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government. ..... >Brian -- why do the cops do busts like this where they know they will be >thrown out? 1) Because they can 2) Because they can get away with it 3) Because most of the public approves of this kind of 4) Because they can put out press releases encouraging 2) and 3) and folks will believe them. 5) Because if the case gets dropped it _might_ make Page 43 of the newspaper and will be covered in a way that makes it clear that they're the good guys. 6) Because the state/city/town will cover their legal costs and penalties if they somehow lose a lawsuit 7) Because the state/city/town _won't_ cover the costs of a real defense of the "self-styled anarchist", who'll have to put up with a lot of crap as well as the 47:59:59 hours they can keep him in jail for no good reason plus any more until he can make bail for the bogusly heavy charges they'll lay on him. 8) Because once you're a "self-styled" anything, you don't get no respect. 9) I've never met any cops who were bullies - have you? 10)It's covered by the Anarchists and Commies Exception to the First Amendment. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Sat Aug 3 01:59:49 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:59:49 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960803071838.006b0808@gonzo.wolfenet.com> At 08:42 PM 8/2/96 -0500, you wrote: > >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:50:01 -0500 (CDT) >> From: snow >> Subject: Re: A Libertine Question >> >> As long as you are enforcing it on everyone, I don't think you'd have a >> problem, but to force some one from cooking food for homeless people, and >> allow a family barbeque, is IMO wrong. > >Not at all. Businesses have no rights, individuals do. Businesses have a >Blueberries they bought at the local HEB). Individuals have a right to >privacy, that includes cooking themselves food without harrassment. Business >on the other hand are selling products of potentialy questionable quality. A I disagree with your sentiments about Business and rights, however, in this instance, even that wasn't the issue. Food Not Bombs is NOT a business, it's a not-for-profit organization that gives out (not sells) food. They are the same as, I think Tim May pointed out, a Boy Scout picnic, except for the homless, not the boy scouts. //cerridwyn// From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 02:16:45 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 17:16:45 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030750.CAA11930@einstein> Hi all, Because none of these issues have ever been tested in a court of law any comments I or any other person makes (even if a lawyer) is simply personal opinion. To find out what is 'really' going on we will have to simply wait for that first case. Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:28:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sandy Sandfort > Subject: Re: Tolerance (fwd) > > A. Where does Jim get the terms of the contract he implies from > the simple word "public"? As far as I can see, he simply made > it up from whole cloth. Interesting, but totally without any > legal basis. Public - of or pertaining to the people; not private or secret; open to general use; accessible to all; serving the people. Community or its members; a section of community. Making known to the public; proclamation; printing in a book, etc. for sale or distribution. To make widely known; to advertise. The state of being generaly known; notoriety; advertisement. I first learned about the cpunks list in Mondo 2000 several years ago not long after I got PGP 1.0 off Adelante BBS in Co. Wasn't Eric's girlfriend involved in Mondo 2000? (Hi Jude, I think we will have a RoboFest this year in Austin, as always you are invited) Which would indicate a certain level of premeditation regarding letting people know of the list. I think that qualifies as public, I also think a court would accept that argument. The bottem line is that the list operator crossed that line whether they were aware of it or not. If they feel uncomfortable with this then they should consider very strongly dropping the list or enacting some form of registration more preferential than majordomo's subscribe system. This registration should clearly define what is and is not allowed on this list. > B. I'm unaware that the Cypherpunks list has ever been advertised > as "public" by the list owner. It has appeared in many publications which are intended for general or 'public' distribution in every one of those publications it was made clear that anyone was welcome and the subscription address was provided. The list operators ignorance of the consequences of their actions in no way alleviates them of the consequences of those actions. > C. Combining A & B, I know of know instance where the owners of > the Cypherpunks list ever made any indication that they were > adhearing to the Byzantine interpretation of contract law as > suggested by Jim. (It sure doesn't comport to what I learned > in my Contracts classes.) It isn't my interpretation. Perhaps you should have paid better attention in class. These issues have never been tested in a court of law in the US in regards to computer networks and their special nature. > > > A restaurant or bookstore is a public place in that it is open > > > to the public. > > > > I know of no state in the union where a bookstore, restaurant, > > mall, etc. is considered public. > > Actually, it's the law in ALL states in the union since the Public > Accomidations Act was enacted some time in the '60s (with the > possible exception of Texas, I guess). Not in Texas. We recently passed a law (Jan. 8) which permits citizens legaly registered to carry concealed weapons. Because the way the law was worded it was made clear in many newspapers and such that the ONLY way that business could prohibit patrons from entering their premises with those weapons was because they were PRIVATE property and therefore excluded from the constraints of the law. [When I worked at UT the rationale that was used to throw the dumpster divers off campus was that even though it was a publicly funded school by taxes it was private property (didn't make sense to me then or now). I can also state unequivacly that if the UTPD catch you on campus after 10pm or before 6AM w/o proof of either being a current student or staff consider it a graceful and considerate officer if they only escort you off campus.] Even now there is a big discussion here over whether this is realy a strong enough distinction. It is only a matter of time before a case comes up here to test even this limitation of private ownership (which I happen to support, a person with a gun on my private property is definately subject to my desires and wants, they represent a clear and present danger. If they don't then why do they need to register the weapons and why are they classed 'deadly weapons'?). The really sad part is that it will probably be another one of those shoot outs at Wendy's in Waco or some such nonesense as some loony toon goes postal. I wonder if that was what Jeffeson meant about watering the tree of liberty with blood? If my business property is really public simply because I am open to the public then I feel the police have a responsibility to provide an officer on my premises for whatever hours I am open for business to protect me, my property, and my patrons just like they do at the courthouse, tax accessors office, etc. They also have a responsibility to help assist in the operation and funding of my business (something I oppose strongly) since they have now found my business to be public; as a matter of fact they can help pay my damn taxes. For the record Florida and every other state with 'Right To Carry' laws looks at it this way. It is the only way under the current statutes to allow businesses to control access by gun toting folks. Now there is one caveat that most of you will have caught. That is the definitions of public above. In short, we have a circular argument as the law is worded now. Logicaly the courts have two recourses. They can first declare that no agency has the right to regulate gun ownership and possession (what I want to see) or else regardless of the 2nd, nobody has the right to carry a weapon on their person in public, since police are not awarded special consideration from constitutional law this would mean they could not carry a weapon on their side in public. So the courts eventualy must either refuse to review the case or else they must make some major change in the current law which goes against the government either way. Either everyone gets to wear weapons or nobody including the police get to carry them. Either way with the last two the police are in a situation where they are less likely to employ force for enforcement since they are no longer the strong side in the 'discussion'. > > Legaly a public place is someplace which is operated using > > public monies. > > Like the Cypherpunks list? Citation, please. The Cpunks list isn't a place. It is a steam of characters. Does the list reside on my computer? It does at least to some degree since I obviously have access to discuss these issues with you. It also resides on your computer as well as the thousand or so subscribers. It resides at least in part on the screen of my crt, the RAM in my computer, the network cable, the ISDN line, my providers router, my brain, the EM emission of the computer, etc. ad nauseum. So there is no single 'place' where the list resides, any more than a single place that an idea resides. This whole issue is the reason that I contend that eventualy it will be seen clearly that postings on usenet, public accessible mailing lists, irc channels, etc. are actualy automaticaly public domain in regards to their content. At some point I feel that it will turn out that unless you encrypt your data or place copyright symbols on it with special, and likely convoluted, riders allowing various distributions and storing via computer networks the author of computer text such as this will grant all rights and privileges to the work to the public automaticaly. This belief is the reason that I am interested in crypto, outside the simple curiosity I have about nature. I don't believe the cpunks list has ever been involved in a legal case. As a matter of fact this issue has never been tested in a court of law. Perhaps we should look at forcing a case. The best strategy would be for Eric to throw somebody off the list sureptitously (sp? I put the dictionaries back and I ain't walking over there again...sorry) and then for that person to bring a civil suit alleging infringement of civil liberties (ie equal access under the law). Eric would claim the list is private while the expunged user would claim it was public. We would of course have to resolve the cost issue first. I have two lawyers on retainer for my businesses but I don't believe either would touch a non-commerical case like this would be and I don't have anywhere near the personal capital to finance it myself. As a added bonus we could pick a handicapped person and they could sue under the various laws relating to those issues as well. This would get the whole issue of handicapped access to computer technology to be explored. Currently the handicapped (eg blind) find GUI interfaces nearly unusable. It would be pretty weird (to me) to see court rule that every os and software manufacturer must provide a CLI interface to their products because of the new equal access laws regarding handicapped individuals. > The problem with Jim is not that he doesn't know anything, but > rather that he knows so many things that aren't true. (But I > would not favor enforcing the state granted monopoly on the > practice of law if Jim wants to hang out his shingle. If he can > get someone to pay him for legal advice, more power to him, but > /caveat emptor/.) That is a two edged sword. Where did you get your law degree? My lawyers both got theirs at UT Austin Law School. Both are federal lawyers and both have argued before the Supreme and are currently allowed to argue before the Supremes. The bottem line is that this whole issue is so full of circular arguments and contrary views it may take quite a few years to work out something that makes any kind of sense at all, if ever. Course by then we will have a whole new generatio of technology to argue over. Take care all, and watch your sixes. Jim Choate From TrustBuckFella at nowhere.com Sat Aug 3 02:43:45 1996 From: TrustBuckFella at nowhere.com (TrustBuckFella) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 17:43:45 +0800 Subject: TrustBucks Message-ID: <64gf4trmj9@nowhere.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An alternative model of electronic money. Every model of electronic money I know of except one retains some degree of centralization. There is always a central "mint", usually a bank. If you can't find a bank that acts the way you want, you're SOL. And the only thing that enforces non-abuse (inflation, etc) by the bank is the equivalence of electronic money to some form of "real" money. The sole exception is Digicash. Unfortunately, Digicash has no restraint on infinite spending-into-debt. I want to present an alternative model I call "TrustBucks". TrustBucks is decentralized but zero-sum and needs no assistance from "real" currency. Its central idea is a "web of trust": Local, trusted contacts are linked in a web that at some remove can extend everywhere. I'm not going to try to develop the cryptographic protocols for TrustBucks. I haven't got the requisite paranoia and pickiness (compliments both) for that. TrustBucks also has nothing in the way of anonymity and restraint on double-spending right now. If you can see how it could be anonymous or restrain double-spending and still work, please feel free to add. The basic rules of TrustBucks: - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Each individual using TrustBucks has their own individual variety of currency, notated here as TrustBucks( ). Each individual is considered to have an infinite supply of their own TrustBucks. Each individual accepts payment only in their own variety of TrustBucks. There are only two fundamental operations with TrustBucks: A and B swap TrustBucks, of any two varieties. A pays B in TrustBucks( B ) for something external to the system. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Examples: Say Alice wants to pay Bob in TrustBucks, and Bob agreed to accept payment in this form. Alice has several options for paying him. * Alice already has some TrustBucks( Bob ). Alice pays Bob. * The amount is small enough that Bob trusts Alice directly. Alice and Bob swap TrustBucks( Alice ) for TrustBucks( Bob ) Alice pays Bob. I know this looks like an extra piece of complexity, but it's really not. By insisting that only TrustBucks( Bob ) are payment to Bob, we insure that Bob can't manipulate what currency he will accept to his advantage, which would otherwise be a problem. For instance, Bob cannot refuse to make good on his debts while accepting other people's money. * Alice doesn't have enough TrustBucks( Bob ), but does have TrustBucks( Carol ), and Bob trusts Carol directly for that amount. Alice and Bob swap TrustBucks( Carol ) for TrustBucks( Bob ) Alice pays Bob. * Alice doesn't have enough TrustBucks( Bob ), but does have TrustBucks( Carol ), and Carol has some TrustBucks( Bob ). Alice and Carol swap TrustBucks( Carol ) for TrustBucks( Bob ) Alice pays Bob. * Alice doesn't have enough TrustBucks( Bob ), and Carol has some TrustBucks( Bob ), and Carol trusts Alice directly. Alice and Carol swap TrustBucks( Alice ) for TrustBucks( Carol ) Alice and Carol swap TrustBucks( Carol ) for TrustBucks( Bob ) Alice pays Bob. Using some combination of the above methods, Alice can pay Bob as long as there are accessible parties in the system who, in total sum, trust Alice for the amount of the payment, and there are accessible parties in the system whom, in total sum, Bob is willing to trust for the amount of his credit. Which gives the scheme its name: TrustBucks. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Disadvantages: Lots of overhead. Third-party traders must be perpetually available. Not anonymous. Not clear how double-spending can be avoided. Not a true disadvantage: It could "stall"; that is, there could be catch-22 situations where if only some people trusted to begin with, the system could continue, but not enough people trust each other to get it started. I say this is not a true disadvantage because the same thing happens in other currency-schemes, to an equal or larger degree. If it's merely more visible with TrustBucks, that should not be called a disadvantage. In practice, I think the threshhold of trust neccessary to start the system would be considerably with TrustBucks than with other systems. Advantages: Decentralizable. It is not neccessarily decentraliz_ed_, but can become so as needed. Nobody controls the "mint". Few conceptual parts. When counting the parts in other schemes, don't forget to count the parts neccessary to fix or ameliorate problems that don't occur in TrustBucks, like deciding who "prints money", keeping them from abusing the role, stopping others (IE counterfeiters) from assuming the role, and so forth. I don't claim that the above neccessarily adds up to a positive rating, but it's worth hashing out, especially if it inspires more secure protocols along the same decentralized lines. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not the first person to notice that decentralized ideas tend to take off more abruptly and firmly. For instance, PGP vs. Kerberos, or the internet vs. AOL, Prodigy, Compuserve. Especially Usenet and the WWW. That's why I thought a long time about bringing this idea out. Once it's out, it and its successors are beyond my control or anyone else's. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.1 iQCVAwUBMgLz8pi7GCxryNrZAQEfAAQApDzHN9PSpARe/MUZgDDk8F+eFLlKNAHZ 5H6KaX3SlWxL9itM8aFMoudpnBU2gAO7Kn9YHV+dFS1l/tE+NJDhSpTRL1EMKVw9 rGrL8lypX9bLsuw0+thMl1djJjQhc3To6qaLhJvZVji7TRXlKYuVMFW5D6Sm988a Zg8nRsCQrIo= =EOKl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 04:00:27 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 19:00:27 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030921.EAA12012@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 00:18:38 -0700 > From: Cerridwyn Llewyellyn > Subject: Re: A Libertine Question (fwd) > > I disagree with your sentiments about Business and rights, however, in this > instance, even that wasn't the issue. Food Not Bombs is NOT a business, it's > a not-for-profit organization that gives out (not sells) food. They are the > same as, I think Tim May pointed out, a Boy Scout picnic, except for the > homless, not the boy scouts. Then we have a clear case of abuse of power and if the folks at FNB don't pursue this then they deserve the ignominy they receive. What is the current status? Have counter suites been filed? What was the ACLU and NAACP (I am assuming that everyone at FNB is not anglo-saxon and named 'Fletcher') responce to requests for aid? Have they begun a petition or whatever the city charter allows demanding the ouster of those in charge? What is the Libertarian Party there doing? Has anyone contacted the Justice Dept. and begun the proceeding for a civil rights suit? If these folks seriously went out there not prepared to fight then the issues must not be very important to them, perhaps a simple publicity stunt to get their 15 minutes and not realy to help the homeless/foodless? Has anyone made reference to the judges comments in the CDA trial regarding speech and chaos? While the city acted illegaly, nobody has stated if the city categoricaly prohibits such activities which was the point I was originaly trying to express. Was this a isolated incident originating with the poor decision of a single individual in the HD or was it organized? Have similar responces occured before? Every year on Halloween a bunch of folks here in Texas go down to the State Capital at about 10pm and sit around and smoke pot for about an hour. The city police have no jurisdiction on the capital grounds and the DPS officers pretty much stand around and make shure things don't get out of hand. I have never known of anyone being arrested but then again the place is crawling with video and lawyers ready to pounce. I would contend that one of the reasons that no actions are taken is that the event is organized and the folks come prepared to go to jail and fight if need be. Jim Choate From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 3 04:13:57 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 19:13:57 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" Message-ID: <199608030923.CAA22990@toad.com> At 06:11 PM 8/2/96 -0400, David Lesher wrote: >> The English-Only bill just passed in the House bans the use of >> non-English languages by government officials. Does Tim's sudden >> avoidance of the Latin mean that _he_'s the Fed?? > >What about Navajo? Foreign diplomacy was one of the exceptions. Algol wasn't, since it's designed to describe algorithms to humans, even though it's additionally useful for diplomatic relations with our Mechanical Companions. (Actually, they are allowed to use it for teaching purposes, or if really necessary for National Security, and the Bureau of the Census can use it to help count people.) Section (I), however, is disappointing - means we can't sue them for putting "E Pluribus Unum" on the coinage.... ============================ `(2) OFFICIAL BUSINESS- The term `official business' means governmental actions, documents, or policies which are enforceable with the full weight and authority of the Federal Government, and includes publications, income tax forms, and informational materials, but does not include-- `(A) teaching of languages; `(B) requirements under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act; `(C) actions, documents, or policies necessary for-- `(i) national security issues; or `(ii) international relations, trade, or commerce; `(D) actions or documents that protect the public health and safety; `(E) actions or documents that facilitate the activities of the Bureau of the Census in compiling any census of population; `(F) actions, documents, or policies that are not enforceable in the United States; (G) actions that protect the rights of victims of crimes or criminal defendants; `(H) actions in which the United States has initiated a civil lawsuit; or `(I) using terms of art or phrases from languages other than English. =================================================== "These aren't the droids you're looking for." # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 04:16:44 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 19:16:44 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <199608030957.EAA12053@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 02:38:09 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Horowitz > Subject: Re: A Libertine Question (fwd) > > > I am not even shure I accept the legal premise of corporations. > - Jim Choate > > This is NOT a drill. Right, petty harrasment would better describe it. > This is an actual pop quiz, in which Jim Choate > is directed to tell us about the legal premise of incorporation. Jim, do > you know anything about what you are talking about. Looking it up is not > allowed. Why should I be prohibited from looking it up? You had to in order to grasp the concept originaly? Doesn't really matter since I already have done it with LSD Labs. The concept behind incorporation is to create a commercial entity whereby the persons & possessions of the principles can be protected from most legal actions against the corporation. The fictional rights given the corporation is intended to create a framework whereby the existing legal structure can be applied fairly to the business that the corporation carries out. In the case of a single proprietorship such as CyberTects it is possible for me to loose everything I own if the right conditions arise (eg I got sued and lose) in order to pay the judgement. It is much harder for me to loose monies and physical property being involved in a incorporated venture. The reason that I oppose this is the same reason that I oppose the laws that prevent suing the government without their permission. It creates an atmosphere of isolation that gives petty non-elected government prols the feeling of invincibility and isolation. It's just their job, never mind they are fucking peoples lives over. It is the reason that big companies screw up time and time again and still manage to survive and do it to us again. So what do I win other than a hard time? > P.S. could you humor me on one tiny little thing? Can we agree that > that the word shall be spelled "sure", not "shure", on this list? I > don't want to trample on your artistic vision or anything like that, but > could we just agree on this one tiny little thing So fucking sue me for learning to read/write phoneticaly. Geesh what a petty attitude. Do you feel better now? Is your sense of superiority restored? If the only criticism you have is my spelling then shut the fuck up. If it makes you feel any better I am very hyper-active and dyslexic as well. But that is ok, there are people that love me anyway. Jim Choate From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 3 04:35:35 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 19:35:35 +0800 Subject: Why Fingerprints and Key-ID's Message-ID: <199608030959.CAA23261@toad.com> At 09:42 PM 8/2/96 -0700, Paul Wittry wrote: >I understand PGP Open-Signed messages and why they are used. I've >read all the FAQ's. I can't seem to figure out why some of us put our >Fingerprints and/or Key-ID's at the end of messages. Even with the PGP Web Of Trust, one of the difficult problems in cryptography is how to do key distribution - if you want to talk to Bob, how do you know you've really got _Bob's_ key instead of a key some imposter Eve _said_ was Bob's key? Similarly, if you receive a message saying "Bank X will pay you $Y, signed Bank X Small-Transactions-Teller", how do you know it really came from them and wasn't signed by some fake key that Carol genned up? One way is to get some well-known person to sign your key, or a chain of people which get you to a sig for the key you want. Another way is to give out your key, often. That way someone who gets email from "you", signed by "your" key, can compare the key with previous keys you've stuck on your email and business cards, and scream if there's a mismatch. For this, remember to use the full key fingerprint, not just the short KeyID which can be duplicated arbitrarily. This is especially useful for pseudonymous people like Black Unicorn. Another reason is just to remind people you've got a PGP key and make it easier to look up 0x12345678 correctly than "Joe Anonymous" or "smith". # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 3 05:02:53 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 20:02:53 +0800 Subject: strength of 128-bit encryption? Message-ID: <199608031017.DAA23426@toad.com> At 11:38 AM 8/2/96 -0400, KDBriggs1 at aol.com wrote: ><< Current export standards allow export of 512-bit RSA for encrypting > (including key exchange), 1024 bit for signing. >> >1024-bit for signing? Do you have a reference for this? I was under the >impression that digital signatures were not covered by export restrictions. I've heard this also, but remember that the export standards are "whatever specific products we decide you can export" rather than a formal law you can design to and be sure they'll obey. The ITAR doesn't cover pure authentication software, only software capable of preserving privacy through encryption. Some public-key signature algorithms only do signature, some only do privacy, RSA does both. Thus, especially for software like Netscape which _does_ have encryption capabilities, they can get away with limiting the strength of the RSA signature portion because it's part of the encryption package, and because RSA signing is just encrypting with your private key instead of your public key. Someone _could_ use an RSA signature program to encrypt short data (like keys) if they wanted to work at it, and while bugs in software are of course entirely unheard of that would make this easier, there's still the risk that those Crafty Furriners might disassemble the crypto code from Netscape and reassemble it with the limits removed. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 05:42:40 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 20:42:40 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) Message-ID: <199608031110.GAA12116@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:12:04 -0700 > From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) > Subject: Re: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) > > >True enough, but not the whole story. If a dog or cat is kept well and fed > >good quality food they live 10+ years. The average life of an animal on the > >street is between 2-5 years. As to people, we now live around 75-80 years, > >prior to all these rules and regulations on food and such the average was > >20-25. If we go back to what you propose you would be dead a long time ago. > > Hardly a proved correlation. A lot of other factors come into play. But > never mind. No point arguing. But it is. I suggest you take a look at any social health text and look at the comparisons between diets of our ancestors, ourselves, and various cultures around the planet now. In places like Africa the mean age in many places is still in the early 20's. It is pretty remarkable that places that at one time had poor or subsistance diets and now have more modern diets have the average life span growing (even in places like Samoa and the Pima Indians in Mexico and the S. US where the high-fat diets are causinga marked increase in coronary problems, interesting article in this months Sci-Am) by leaps and bounds. Look at the studies which have tracked the English population over the centuries (they kept good records) and compaired physical body characteristics with food intake. It has been clearly shown that as the food got better and more plentiful the lifespan got longer and the average height got larger. Pretty strong evidence of some correlation there. I certainly feel strongly enough about it that I would not willingly eat food except in emergency conditions that I was not shure of the quality or purity. Other factors such as what? Disease? If you have a good diet then diseases like colds and Influenza (for example) are survivable. Without good diets high in Vitamen C and such you get Rickets and can die from a simple cold in as little as 3 days. Certainly if you kill off the local fauna you will increse your lifespan simply because there isn't as much to eat you when you aren't looking. But this particular threat was most present for the older and more damaged individuals. During some recent studies (5-6 years) of Cromagnon Man it was discovered that these folks were covered in broken bones, arthritic joints, spongy bones, spinabifida, etc. because of the hard life they lived having to manualy chase down the dinner and kill up close with rocks and sticks. If you get a chance try to get a peek at some of the pictures. I remember one of a girl around 16 whose knees and back looked like they belonged to somebody 80 years old. If you feel there is no point in arguing (which I don't feel we are doing since it seems pretty civil, we have widely seperate views) why resond? That is like asking somebody a person question and then when getting the answer saying you don't care. Just for the record, I am enjoying the discourse. But since you are not I won't continue this thread any longer. > >I personaly find it reassuring that some bunch of knuckle-heads are unable > >to start a chip making facility like you support. The thought of finding > >flourine compounds in the local river (where I get my tap water) or simply > >dumped in the air is a little unsettling. Just because some group of bozo's > >want to start a business is not sufficient justification for that to be > >allowed. > > A straw man. There is is no evidence that these startup companies are > dumping stuff in rivers. Jeesh. The point is that large companies learn how > to keep large staffs employed filling out paperwork, and they actually have > come to see it is a good way to keep small companies from forming. A straw man is where one claims one situation is analgous to another different situation. This is not a straw man because we are talking about the same issue but discussing the effect of size on behaviour. Motorola, AMD, Sematech, etc. have all been fined over the last years for doing just this to the waters around Austin. When I was working at Austin Community College over the last 2 1/2 years (prior to going to work for Tivoli - IBM 4 months ago) my primary responsibility was building a wafer fab training facility at the Riverside campus from donations from these folks and many others localy (Applied Material, Varian, etc.) I got to spend a lot of time in site in areas that normaly are not open to outsiders. If these big plants have problems regulating their emissions with their budget and reams of paper just image what a startup hard for cash would do if they thought they could get away with it "just this one time". I think the way Crystal Semiconductor (ie fabless) does their design is the way to go for small startups, simply rent production facilities from these other companies. I know that, for example, each of the companies here in Austin are in the process of shutting down older fabs and don't have plans to upgrade them for at least a couple of years. For somebody like Crystal that is a god send. It means they can bring products to market for costs way below what it would have originaly cost, and the larger company gets to bring in income on equipment it had originaly written off. Sounds like a win-win to me. Sorry, but a simple reading of the Austin American Statesman (admittedly a shitty paper very highly biased) will provide numerous instances of such dumps over the last few years. > >It seems to me that many of the folks who recognize downsized workers pleas > >for their 'right to a job' as so much bunk are at the same time supporting a > >businesses right to start up. A pretty humorous double standard. > > Not at all comparable. But they are for the simple reason that we are talking about two entities which each claim a right to some behaviour. And in this case directly comparable because a person working is comparable to a business working. Each provides services and expects a return. Now the argument goes with persons that a person does not have a inherent right to income. In other words if a company shuts down and they are laid off w/o any other work forthcoming it is their fault for not seeking the appropriate training and such (ie resources) to get another job with a better future. Now with business the claim is that they should have some rights comparable to persons, however they should also be given the right to open their doors for business even if they can't demonstrate some level of competency and ability to survive in the market. This is carried to the point that they should be allowed to operate without regulation or other forms of checks and balances on their actions. Now if a real person does not have a right to income if they don't posses the requisite skills why should a business be allowed to do it without showing the same sort requisite skills? Why should the local community be forced to take on the burden of such a venture simply because the business is a 'virtual' person? It is becoming pretty clear with the change in welfare (which I support) that our society does not feel an obligation to support folks for more than 2-3 years on the social dole without some return on investment. Why should the city be required to provide utilities and other services without some assurance they will get the public funds (ie your money and mine) back? We as citizens in Austin certainly don't recieve stock or other benefit from this other than the jobs it creates for persons with the requisite skill. > >I have never heard of anyone being arrested for giving away food, only > >selling it without a license. I bet the Salvation Army soup kitchen would be > >worried if this claim were true (they aren't and it ain't). > > Then you weren't reading the thread, which in several posts described this > very situation. "Food Not Bombs" was giving away soup, chile, and other > such stuff at a park in Santa Cruz (and maybe elsewhere, e.g., San > Francisco). They were busted. > Now do you understand the situation? I understand that they were arrested for the noise and such and not for the food. The reason that the permit was refused (wrongly I agree) was that the HD did not want the people out on the street causing a disturbance. What they did should be protected if it is in the right place and at the right time. The right of the poeple to assemble has an important caveat. If I may, ARTICLE I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. If you will notice it says 'peaceably', I do not believe this should include standing on the corner with a bullhorn screaming at people. A more appropriate strategy would have been to walk over and give the government folks food also with little political pamphlets wrapped around their weenies. They would have most likely eaten their food, looked at the pamphlet, got a good chuckle and gone back to being good little prols. As the situation was at fist described is not quite how it was. This bozo apparently was on the corner with the direct intention of harrassing folks. This is uncalled for behaviour in such a situation. I agree with the conclusion that there was an alterior motive other than feeding the homeless. It sounds more like a podium for a personal tirade. Jim Choate From fallenangel at multipro.com Sat Aug 3 06:01:49 1996 From: fallenangel at multipro.com (Fallen Angel) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 21:01:49 +0800 Subject: problem Message-ID: <3203D296.2E30@multipro.com> I unsubscribed from your mailing list so why am I still receiving email from it. I No longer wish to receive any more mail, so please stop it. Fallen Angel fallenangel at multipro.com From wb8foz at nrk.com Sat Aug 3 07:02:31 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 22:02:31 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608031156.HAA07017@nrk.com> > > According to KCBS, a local radio station, the FAA has closed a long > anticipated deal with a manufacturer of transponder devices. The goal of > the system to be deployed nationwide is to match aircraft passengers to > their luggage and thereby identify unaccompanied luggage on board an > aircraft. I thinks they have mixed their marbles.... The FAA is trialing (at the Olympics & Oshkosh) a GPS rx/transponder; piped into a moving map. The reason is their existing long-range radar (called ARSR -- Air Route surveillance Radar) is very long in the tooth, & they have no hope of getting money to replace it. (Their recent 50 mile system procument, the ASR-9, looked like the worst of the Sgt. York & the V-22...) Note they spend $3-400E6 annually on radar maint. alone. [I suspect they have to buy their vacuum tubes from St. Petersburgh, the last source of them...] The GPS scheme could replace: Primary Radar VOR [en route nav. -- lots of ground transmitters {?200?} scattered around country] ILS [instrument landing system] It's the only rational thing I've seen the FAA pursue, vice be forced into, in 20 years.... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 07:22:09 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 22:22:09 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <199608031145.GAA12155@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 23:36:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sandy Sandfort > Subject: Re: A Libertine Question (fwd) > On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Jim Choate's dog wrote: > > > Really? Then would you mind explaining why costs rise over time > > instead of going down? > > Gladly. Prices rise over time because of inflation of the money > supply. While it is possible for private actors to temporarily > inflate the money supply (e.g., extension of credit by banks), > only the government can increase the money supply indefinitely. > Inflation is the most insidious form of "taxation." It steals > silently and punishes the savings in favor of consumption. Then why didn't the costs rise at the same rate as the general inflation rate instead of tens of times faster? If the cost of airline tickets matched the rise in milk then my gallon of milk would cost over $10 instead of the $2 (this x5 factor I got from a news show the other nite, I have not verified it) it costs now (and it has remained pretty constant over the last 10 years or so arguing that something has been balancing that inflation rate). Since the inflation rate on a dollar is flat across the board in our economy simple inflation does not account for this rise in prices in a niche market. I guess it could be in the case of airlines because they have had to increase the fairs to pay for the increase in aircraft loss due to crashes and fatigue (airlines are not replacing their aircraft as fast now as they did in the regulation days, one of the reasons Beoing and other commercial companies are having such a hard time.) over the last few years as well as the rise in the price of their insurance premiums since deregulation to compensate for the increased payouts both due to increased frequency of crashes since deregulation and the increase in the payouts to the victims and their families. I would guess that insurance companies don't like paying for a multi-million dollar plane unless they have to. They are in the business of not paying off after all. > > Insurance has become involved in the medical industry, what > > happened? The cost has gone through the roof. The airplane > > industry was deregulated in the late 70's, what happened? The > > price of a ticket went up...yada yada yada. > > Technically, Jim's logical fallacy is called /post hoc, ergo > propter hoc/, after this, therefore on account of this. If it was a single case I would agree, the reason that I put several unconnected fields which share one thing, the loss of government regulation. What we are looking at is a inflation rate for unregulated commodities like milk (for example) and compare them to the difference in operating costs between a regulated versus a unregulated role. It is clear that with a increase of x5 in this area and something like < x2 in the commodities area that something is at play here other than pure inflation. > > If this is so then by your own argument, business are operated > > by people therefor they are people... > > Nope, that's not what I said. This fallacy is called a "straw > man." It is a weak or mistated opposing argument set up by a > politician or debator, etc., in order that he may attack it and > gain an easy, showy victory. A straw man is where I take one situation and compare it to another. I am taking your supposition and applying it to a economic model that fits both cases. Both businesses and individuals survive by trading their outgoing products for incoming products. The issue is whether the rules that apply to one should apply to another. If you look at the gross cash flow between a business and a individual they are identical. Since we are talking about gross cash flow in both cases it does not qualify for straw man status. > > Is your contention that because I own and > > operate a computer it should be given rights? > > Nope. Whatever gave you that idea? Your contention was that a business should enjoy some of the same rights that a person does because it was owned and operated by a person or persons. Since I own and operate my computer and it is an inanimate object like the system of rules and procedures used by a business they are comparable in this case, as is comparison to any other inanimate object. The key points here are that people have rights and your contention that because businesses are owned and operated by people they should have rights as well. My goal is to determine your litmus test (if you will) as to how you determine that a business is eligible for such right but a automobile is not. Simply saying they are different is not sufficient in this case. > > > > Businesses are a system of rules and procedures... > > > > > > Made and enforced by PEOPLE. Jim is begging the question. > > > > Which question would that be? "Should businesses be considered > > people with the same rights and priviliges?" > > Nope. You just don't get it, do you? I get it, it just doesn't make sense when looked at the way you are looking at because you have still failed to elucidate your litmus test. Obviously it is more complicated than simple ownership or else anything owned would qualify. I am simply requesting clarification of the remainder of the test. It is hard to evaluate a theory if you don't have access to the whole thing. Sorta similar to analyzing a crypto algorithm via public peer revue. Generaly considered a bad thing. Jim Choate From matts at cyberpass.net Sat Aug 3 07:34:58 1996 From: matts at cyberpass.net (Matts Kallioniemi) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 22:34:58 +0800 Subject: List for crypto minus political rubbish Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960803123859.0034a45c@cyberpass.net> At 15:25 1996-08-02 -0500, W.K. Woelbeling wrote: >I am looking for a source of info on crypto. While this list is of interest >to (many) people, I find that the amount of political ranting outweighs any >nuggets of information concerning cryptography. Pointers? > >Bill Just about everything on cryptography has already been said far too many times. Just read Applied Cryptography and be done with it. What remains to discuss is politics, psychology and marketing. How do you get people to use the cryptography that already exists and how will the authorities react when people do use it. Matts From jya at pipeline.com Sat Aug 3 08:20:46 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 23:20:46 +0800 Subject: List for crypto minus political rubbish Message-ID: <199608031334.NAA10748@pipe3.t1.usa.pipeline.com> On Aug 03, 1996 14:38:59, 'Matts Kallioniemi ' wrote: >Just about everything on cryptography has already been said far too many times. >Just read Applied Cryptography and be done with it. What remains to discuss is >politics, psychology and marketing. How do you get people to use the >cryptography that already exists and how will the authorities react when people >do use it. An exemplary air-clearing for a smoke-filled agenda; and two challenging questions which may pose a High Noon amongst munitions-slingers. Bravo, Matts, for cryptic concision. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sat Aug 3 08:36:14 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 23:36:14 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alan Horowitz writes: > Corporations are state-created persons [legal definition of "person", not > colloquial vernacular]. They have some privileges which have surface > resmblence to the rights of natural people. For example, they can "have > standing" in a court to initiate a legal proceeding - in their own name, > not that of an agent or employee or trustee. Corporations could also own property at the time when many "real" persons could not. Corporations could also be granted monopoly rights by the state, like an exclusive right to trade with a certain region. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From declan at eff.org Sat Aug 3 08:36:48 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 23:36:48 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030750.CAA11930@einstein> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > > It isn't my interpretation. Perhaps you should have paid better attention in > class. These issues have never been tested in a court of law in the US in > regards to computer networks and their special nature. [...] > That is a two edged sword. Where did you get your law degree? My lawyers > both got theirs at UT Austin Law School. Both are federal lawyers and both > have argued before the Supreme and are currently allowed to argue before the > Supremes. I've deleted most of Jim's meanderings above, mostly because I'm fascinated by the credentialism in the graf above. He implies, without directly saying so, that "his lawyers" have weighed in on this dispute and agree with him. Of course this is hardly likely; he advances no coherent legal theory. (Except the "public forum" argument, which might apply to Usenet, but not cypherpunks.) This is attempted proof by credentalism. I call him on it. Okay, Jim, what _do_ your lawyers say on this? Have you asked them? I, too, have an attorney, a civil liberties specialist and a graduate from Princeton law. So what? -Declan // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From corbet at stout.atd.ucar.edu Sat Aug 3 09:12:44 1996 From: corbet at stout.atd.ucar.edu (Jonathan Corbet) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 00:12:44 +0800 Subject: AP story: Police look for Olympic bombing Internet link. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608031426.IAA25403@atd.atd.ucar.EDU> > Bomb-making instructions > available through the global computer network have contributed to an > increase in bombings in the United States, authorities say. My local paper (a Knight-Ridder rag) printed this story -- unquestioned -- as well. Needless to say, I think a statement like this needs to be responded to. Letters to the editor, folks! Wouldn't it be nice to have a press that did a little more than print what the "authorities" have to say? (This, of course, is the same paper that printed the recipe for a pipe bomb on the front page after the explosion in Atlanta. They included the Elmer's glue and the all-important nails for best lethal effect -- you might want to amend your sig again, Tim...:-) Meanwhile, I have a question: as far as I know, no bombing has actually been tied to the Internet in any way. Does anybody know otherwise? Even though it's not really relevant to the principles of the debate here, it seems worth pointing out. jon From declan at eff.org Sat Aug 3 09:39:57 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 00:39:57 +0800 Subject: problem In-Reply-To: <3203D296.2E30@multipro.com> Message-ID: I received a similar message in private email from the same person. Obviously, he/she didn't know how to 'unsubscrive' properly. Hint: try email to majordomo at toad.com. -Declan On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Fallen Angel wrote: > I unsubscribed from your mailing list so why am I still receiving > email from it. I No longer wish to receive any more mail, so please stop > it. > > Fallen Angel > fallenangel at multipro.com > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From joelm at eskimo.com Sat Aug 3 09:53:50 1996 From: joelm at eskimo.com (Joel McNamara) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 00:53:50 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers Message-ID: <199608031349.GAA18917@mail.eskimo.com> This does seem to be real. CNet has a few more details: http://www.cnet.com/Content/News/Files/0,16,2031,00.html At 08:28 PM 8/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >According to KCBS, a local radio station, the FAA has closed a long >anticipated deal with a manufacturer of transponder devices. The goal of >the system to be deployed nationwide is to match aircraft passengers to >their luggage and thereby identify unaccompanied luggage on board an >aircraft. > >Transponders will be affixed to all items of luggage and all passengers. If >the system discovers a transponder on the luggage in the cargo hold without >the corresponding transponder on the passenger on board, an alarm will >sound. I am not making this up. > >As many of you know, I have long predicted subcutaneous transponders to >become widely deployed in the near future. First for child identification >and monitoring of criminals, then, as the children grow up, as universal >ID, driver license, proof of eligibility for employment, PIN substitute, >etc. > >Today, we moved a step closer to this future. > >[Note that the transponders will have to be affixed to the passenger. An >example would be a hospital style bracelet that stops working when removed. >Why embedding the transponder in a hand carried item, such as a card, will >not work is left as an exercise to the reader. Even an affixed device does >not provide perfect security. You'd really have to embed the transponder in >the body at an early age to make removal nearly impossible.] > > > >-- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. > Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. > Vote Harry Browne for President. > > > > From wb8foz at nrk.com Sat Aug 3 10:13:04 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 01:13:04 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608031521.LAA07776@nrk.com> > >I thinks they have mixed their marbles.... I get enlightened: > > Micron > Communications intends to utilize remote intelligent > communications (RIC) technology developed for its MicroStamp {} > small-outline integrated circuit (SOIC) plastic package. Micron > Communications believes that the MicroStamp integrated circuit is > the first wireless communications technology to integrate a > single-chip CMOS solution, which includes a direct sequence spread > spectrum (DSSS) microwave-frequency radio operating at 2.45GHz, a > microcontroller, and low-power static random access memory (SRAM). > It also contains a synchronous serial port allowing additional > memory expansion. They are going to hang one of these on EVERY bag? At what per-unit cost? It's all the airlines can do to get barcode labels on each piece that geos by, much less even a credit-card-sized gadget. And how many will they lose??? THEN think of the RFI problems..... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From shamrock at netcom.com Sat Aug 3 10:16:37 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 01:16:37 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers Message-ID: At 7:56 8/3/96, David Lesher wrote: [Quoting Lucky] >> According to KCBS, a local radio station, the FAA has closed a long >> anticipated deal with a manufacturer of transponder devices. The goal of >> the system to be deployed nationwide is to match aircraft passengers to >> their luggage and thereby identify unaccompanied luggage on board an >> aircraft. > >I thinks they have mixed their marbles.... Nope. This from Micron's website: Editorial Contact: Julie Nash, Micron Technology, (208) 368-4400 Web Site URL http://www.micron.com Fax-on-demand: 800-239-0337 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE MICRON COMMUNICATIONS, INC., ANNOUNCES AGREEMENT WITH THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION Boise, Idaho, August 2, 1996 - Micron Communications, Inc., today announced a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRDA) with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to develop a model Positive Passenger Baggage Matching (PPBM) system. The objective of this PPBM system is to automatically recognize when baggage has been placed on an aircraft without an associated passenger. Micron Communications intends to utilize remote intelligent communications (RIC) technology developed for its MicroStamp� family of products to design a security system which will enhance current systems and provide efficient tracking of passengers and baggage. "Micron Communications is proud to be associated with products that are designed to help increase the safety of airline travel, while providing operational benefits to the industry and increasing the convenience to the traveler," said John R. Tuttle, Chairman and President of Micron Communications, Inc. "Our experience in microelectronics and systems design should enable us to develop systems that use tomorrow's technology in finding solutions to these important problems." "Once again, an Idaho company is breaking new ground," Senator Larry Craig said. "As chairman of the Congressional-White House Task Force on Terrorism, its exciting to see this kind of high-tech advancement in security being developed here at home by Micron Communications, Inc. The Positive Passenger Baggage Matching system is exactly the kind of common-sense answer we are looking for to improve airline safety and give us all greater comfort when we fly in the future, " Craig continued. Current MicroStamp-based products include the MicroStamp credit card-sized device and the MicroStamp Engine� in a 20-pin, small-outline integrated circuit (SOIC) plastic package. Micron Communications believes that the MicroStamp integrated circuit is the first wireless communications technology to integrate a single-chip CMOS solution, which includes a direct sequence spread spectrum (DSSS) microwave-frequency radio operating at 2.45GHz, a microcontroller, and low-power static random access memory (SRAM). It also contains a synchronous serial port allowing additional memory expansion. RIC units are different from RFID tags because they have a central processing unit (CPU), memory and microwave on board. This combination allows RIC units to perform more applications than low-performance RFID tags that use older technology at lower frequencies. MicroStamp RIC units are more powerful and more flexible than RFID units. They are also smaller and cost less than other RIC units of comparable performance. Systems integrators, original equipment manufacturers or end users interested in the MicroStamp family of products should contact Micron Communications Customer Service department, 1-888-MSTAMP1, (888-678-2671). Micron Communications, Inc., is a subsidiary of Micron Technology, Inc., whose common stock is traded on the New York Stock Exchange, Inc. (NYSE) under the symbol MU. MicroStamp and MicroStamp Engine are trademarks of Micron Communications, Inc. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From deviant at pooh-corner.com Sat Aug 3 10:57:04 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 01:57:04 +0800 Subject: algorithms for verifying U.S. IP address ... In-Reply-To: <199608011606.JAA23574@ohio.chromatic.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Ernest Hua wrote: > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 09:06:40 -0700 > From: Ernest Hua > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Cc: hua at chromatic.com > Subject: algorithms for verifying U.S. IP address ... > > How does one verify that an IP address is coming from a U.S. site? > How do most FTP site (e.g. those which carry crypto) determine the > origins of a connection? > > It seems to me that if the NSA/DoS is serious about keeping crypto > strong for U.S. internal use, then they would help establish a > method for U.S.-only interchange of this sort of software. It is > clear, however, that they do NOT have an interest in helping with > this identification effort as it will thwart their own efforts at > tapping U.S. (er ... oh gee ... they're NOT suppose to do that, > right? okay, they must not be doing it then ...) > > Ern > You might want to look around on www.internic.net/ftp.internic.net... they have a set of rules that define this. --Deviant Try `stty 0' -- it works much better. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgN48DAJap8fyDMVAQEZ0gf/S0waHw/HaXSM2J5l0gQ8DWkcueTTtfHz yZb8827kUh9eX6eNOq4ZITc9H563WLW0+KBjM7Uxy6Bijz3Hyq/mS3APLaBMysHo zzRjFhSfCoBO1Jx7e6XrOHUb3wZQWw6TbvyyCypB14WA08NcvDlXFGanGhBM0fZM Y+HwGpWY+uaCtR16RaDh/oyY0YNu7I0gOOrh4KuyNRE6Y+if82ABzTfNmZcp93Ob s8mPrZFPKhsc+Mzu3nbmCmnSYTWCOLlWy58DNRzRHt7RlqAPlSDBAscncyJ/VDYz nfAGBYiAUXVFm1owaEO0zRFKeQXsWQgJJwlVqfqXtN+cQSlDVH4MWQ== =9cEF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Aug 3 10:57:07 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 01:57:07 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) Message-ID: <199608031527.KAA12332@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: Declan McCullagh > Subject: Re: Tolerance (fwd) > > > > It isn't my interpretation. Perhaps you should have paid better attention in > > class. These issues have never been tested in a court of law in the US in > > regards to computer networks and their special nature. > > [...] > > > That is a two edged sword. Where did you get your law degree? My lawyers > > both got theirs at UT Austin Law School. Both are federal lawyers and both > > have argued before the Supreme and are currently allowed to argue before the > > Supremes. > > > I've deleted most of Jim's meanderings above, mostly because I'm > fascinated by the credentialism in the graf above. What credentials mine or the lawyers? > He implies, without directly saying so, that "his lawyers" have weighed > in on this dispute and agree with him. Hmmm, I looked back over this and I fail to see where this interpretation can be taken. Perhaps you as well read more than is on the page. If you would like to address specific issues then perhaps there would be some basis for dialog. > Of course this is hardly likely; > he advances no coherent legal theory. (Except the "public forum" > argument, which might apply to Usenet, but not cypherpunks.) I have advanced several coherent theories. My primary one being that if the 9th and 10th are included in Constitutional interpretation many of the issues, such as crypto and gun ownership, become trivial issues to resolve. As to if it applies to cpunks and other similar 'private' resources, we will just see how the court cases fall down the road. > This is attempted proof by credentalism. I call him on it. Not any more than the original comments I was responding to. Anyway, what is yoru credentials to 'call' me on it? While it may be true that you don't agree with my views that hardly carries the weight to dismiss those views out of hand. You sir, are not the legal benchmark in this country. I am simply trying to change something I see as unjust. > Okay, Jim, what _do_ your lawyers say on this? Have you asked them? I, > too, have an attorney, a civil liberties specialist and a graduate from > Princeton law. So what? Yes, I have asked them, both. They both agree that the issues that I raise have NOT been tested in a court of law in this country (or any other) and that it is possible that the inclusion of the 9th and 10th in a civil liberties case could prove quite unsettling. They have also warned me that quite a bit of current legal precedence is in fact against my views. I accept this, just as the folks who fought for womens suffrage or the end to slavery fought against societies which enacted laws and policies that while accepted by the vast majority as the status quo were never the less wrong. If my views were the commen standard we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. From snow at smoke.suba.com Sat Aug 3 10:58:26 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 01:58:26 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > At 8:50 8/2/96, Paul J. Bell wrote: > >i, for one, and perhaps others on the list as well, would be interested in > >hearing > >what you mean when you say, "At&t, Microsoft, etc) who are ripping people > >off on a > >daily basis". > >for example, in what way is AT&T ripping people off? and what about > >microsoft? > Its up to you what you call it, but here is an interesting example: > An international phone call costs about 2 cents/min to produce. The average > rate paid for by the consumer is 62 cents. That's means the carriers mark > up this particular product by an amazing 3000%. > Can you name another business that has comparable mark-ups? Drug (LSD) dealers. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From sparks at bah.com Sat Aug 3 11:02:22 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:02:22 +0800 Subject: List for crypto minus political rubbish Message-ID: Personally, I enjoy some of the rantings, although I would like a forum for new users to get some help and guidance.. perhaps they can scan my ISP to see if I have accessed some bomb making info ... >Status: U >Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:34:10 GMT >To: Matts Kallioniemi >Subject: Re: List for crypto minus political rubbish >From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) >Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com >X-PipeUser: jya >X-PipeHub: pipeline.com >X-PipeGCOS: (John Young) >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com >Precedence: bulk > >On Aug 03, 1996 14:38:59, 'Matts Kallioniemi ' wrote: > >>Just about everything on cryptography has already been said far too many >times. >>Just read Applied Cryptography and be done with it. What remains to >discuss is >>politics, psychology and marketing. How do you get people to use the >>cryptography that already exists and how will the authorities react when >people >>do use it. > > >An exemplary air-clearing for a smoke-filled agenda; and two challenging >questions which may pose a High Noon amongst munitions-slingers. Bravo, >Matts, for cryptic concision. > > > > From snow at smoke.suba.com Sat Aug 3 11:13:38 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:13:38 +0800 Subject: "adjust your attitude with their billy club" (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030343.WAA11512@einstein> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > fast. We are the ones your mother warned you about. Were pissed off enough > that we aren't going to use violence and such, we intend to use your own > system of rules against you. As a member of the same genereation I would like to add that the use of violence is not completely ruled out either. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From snow at smoke.suba.com Sat Aug 3 11:13:42 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:13:42 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030308.WAA11470@einstein> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > built it and occupy it. My dog has a better argument for civil rights than > any business, it breaths and shits. Would you seriously give my dog a vote? > I shure won't, and I won't support any business with rights. I bet your dog would vote better than a lot of people I know. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From clopez at nayar.uan.mx Sat Aug 3 11:30:20 1996 From: clopez at nayar.uan.mx (Carlos L. Mariscal) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:30:20 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] roving wiretaps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>>>> Cerridwyn Llewyellyn writes: > > >> One should understand that monitoring cellular traffic is *much* > >> more difficult than tapping a conventional phone... > > > I'd have to disagree on that point. Monitoring cellular traffic > > requires nothing more than a cellular phone, and some software > > which enables you to follow calls through the cells, for a total > > cost of about $500... > So, it is MUCH more difficult, or at least more expensive; anyone can get a beige box for less than US $10, right? And clipping it onto MaBell boxes takes less of a brain than programming or modifying a scanner or a cellular phone. :) __ || ==== 'If you can dream of it | |__ then you can manage it' | |-.\ |__| \\ clopez at nayar.uan.mx || || ======__| ________||__ /____________\ Carlos L. Mariscal From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 3 11:31:15 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:31:15 +0800 Subject: AP story: Police look for Olympic bombing Internet link. Message-ID: At 2:26 PM 8/3/96, Jonathan Corbet wrote: >My local paper (a Knight-Ridder rag) printed this story -- unquestioned -- >as well. Needless to say, I think a statement like this needs to be >responded to. Letters to the editor, folks! Wouldn't it be nice to have a >press that did a little more than print what the "authorities" have to say? ... >Meanwhile, I have a question: as far as I know, no bombing has actually >been tied to the Internet in any way. Does anybody know otherwise? Even >though it's not really relevant to the principles of the debate here, it >seems worth pointing out. But, as I keep saying, this is not a very useful argument. Given that bomb-makers get their information somewhere (encyclopedia articles, books, Loompanics catalogs, etc.) and given that the Web is beginning to seriously compete with these traditional sources, I have no doubts that the Net will sooner rather than later be implicated in a bombing. If one makes the arguments the the Net should not be regulated because it has not been used to supply information for a crime, then what happens when the Net *is* implicated? That particular argument then crumbles. I prefer to argue it this way: "Sure, the Net could be used for information on bombs. So could encyclopedias, books, "Time" and "Newsweek," and CNN. So what? We don't throw out the First Amendment and our belief that people can read and write what they want just because a few bombers may gain knowledge. We don't shut down chemistry departments because bombers learn about chemistry. And so on." This is, I think, a more lasting and persuasive argument. --Tim May HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From master at internexus.net Sat Aug 3 11:46:33 1996 From: master at internexus.net (Laszlo Vecsey) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:46:33 +0800 Subject: Anonymous Message Broadcast Message-ID: Has anyone implemented a simple anonymous chat system (an anonymous irc) using the technique described in Applied Cryptography 2nd edition? I'm speaking of the Anonymous Message Broadcast documented in section 6.3, it begins on page 137. Can the same system be implemented using base256 (unsigned char, 8bit ASCII) instead of the simple on/off binary method that is described in the explanation? How would it differ. Thanks. (define(RSA m e n)(list->string(u(r(s(string->list m))e n))))(define(u a)(if(> a 0)(cons(integer->char(modulo a 256))(u(quotient a 256)))'()))(define(s a)(if (null? a)0(+(char->integer(car a))(* 256(s(cdr a))))))(define(r a x n)(cond((= 0 x)1)((even? x)(modulo(expt(r a(/ x 2)n)2)n))(#t(modulo(* a(r a(1- x)n))n)))) From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 3 11:52:24 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:52:24 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers Message-ID: At 3:21 PM 8/3/96, David Lesher wrote: >They are going to hang one of these on EVERY bag? > >At what per-unit cost? > >It's all the airlines can do to get barcode labels on each piece >that geos by, much less even a credit-card-sized gadget. And how >many will they lose??? > >THEN think of the RFI problems..... It turns out that I'm one of the early investors in a start-up company developing a very similar product, albeit (we hope) with some technological advantages. Lucky Green, for one, has met the principals in this company and can confirm what I'm saying. (I began working with them, and investing, several years ago. It was partly the long-term implications of their ideas which triggered my proposal a few years back: the "position escrow system." Under position escrow, citizen-units would voluntarily escrow their positions for access by authorized law enforcement officers, dietary compliance agents, social workers, and other interested officials. The system is voluntary, as key escrow is voluntary, in that it only applies when people leave their houses and use the public streets; they are of course free not to leave their houses, and hence not to voluntarily escrow their movements.) I heard about the Micron-FAA deal on CNN, and went to the Micron Web site for details. It's a spread-spectrum system, so it may well work in a luggage environment (though perhaps not as well as the units planned by the company I'm an investor in). The "every bag" point is feasible, though I would assume conventional luggage tags would work adequately. "Per-unit" costs could be low enough....these units will be reused many times, after all. The RFI problems are actually the least of the concerns, given the "code space" technology which is possible. (That is, tens of thousands of transponders can share the same RF spectrum in a local environment by allocation of frequencies or, even better, by using code space allocation...there are some close parallels with cryptography, of course, as there are in communications technology and spread-spectrum technology in general.) Personally, I'm not convinced that the Micron-FAA deal with accomplish much, but the authorities are rushing to "do something," so struggling Micron may get some of the largesse. (Besides, "bag escrow" will allow other agencies--such as DEA--to sniff bags for traces of cocaine residue and then automatically issue arrest orders for the citizen-unit associated with the bag. The surveillance state needs technology like this.) --Tim May HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From drosoff at ARC.unm.EDU Sat Aug 3 12:05:41 1996 From: drosoff at ARC.unm.EDU (David Rosoff) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 03:05:41 +0800 Subject: Information gathering by news servers Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960803171637.3b574292@arc.unm.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 12.33 PM 8/2/96 -0400, Scott McGuire wrote: >How much information about what someone reads can be gathered >by a news server? Is there an anonymous way to read a public >news server, or would a server have to be set up intentionally >to allow anonymous reading? You could use the Anonymizer (http://www.anonymizer.com/) in combination with a Web Usenet archive: Dejanews, for example. (http://www.dejanews.com/). =============================================================================== David Rosoff (nihongo ga sukoshi dekiru) ---------------> drosoff at arc.unm.edu PGP public key 0xD37692F9 -----> finger drosoff at acoma.arc.unm.edu or keyservers 0xD37692F9 Key fingerprint = 25 7D AA 01 85 41 43 89 50 5A 33 76 F1 F1 99 67 Do you know who's reading your email? ---> http://www.arc.unm.edu/~drosoff/pgp/ Is it a forgery? --- I have PGP signed all email and news posts since May 1996. =============================================================================== "Relax. It's not a real alarm. They can't crack _Pentagon_ codes. Can they?" :p -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgOHcBguzHDTdpL5AQE2QAQArHuoLVA0dOJ+LddI2TumYvD/vaFrWBmI LQ3pDNlDRHdyY7u1RouVKkJbYVTvxNZCKQyaWYMgcA38eZl52V65DFq+N11Jhwm4 egCBlOlezDjPOeTk/nK25Ojavdb8ABtqGXGRFf4GwfFBQPq2kApzi8MewYEYeCJG HaofCy5FDWU= =bG1v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From minow at apple.com Sat Aug 3 12:09:27 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 03:09:27 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lucky Green opines: > >An international phone call costs about 2 cents/min to produce. The average >rate paid for by the consumer is 62 cents. That's means the carriers mark >up this particular product by an amazing 3000%. > >Can you name another business that has comparable mark-ups? > Well, software comes to mind. In the international telephone case, you are paying 2 cents for the call, and 60 cents for being able to place the call when you want to. It's time for a story: Once upon a time, Westinghouse's chief turbine engineer was called to a power plant to diagnose a problem. He walked around the turbine for a while, listened to it, thought for a bit, then took out a piece of chalk and drew an X on the housing. "There is a bad bearing here; replace it." Westinghouse sent a bill for $10,000 for the diagnosis. The power plant objected to the sum and asked for an itemized invoice. Westinghouse sent: $0.05 for the chalk, $9999.95 for knowing where to put the chalk. Martin. From mclow at owl.csusm.edu Sat Aug 3 12:20:05 1996 From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 03:20:05 +0800 Subject: FYI: CTST Conference Proceedings Message-ID: I received thei week an advertisment for the 1996 CardTech/SecureTech conference proceedings. These people have a web site at , but it's really lame. (It doesn't contain this table of contents, for example) Since I am not building/using/designing smart card technology right now, I won't be buying it. However, the some of the titles caught my eye: Does anyone have access to this kind of stuff, and would they be willing to post a summary? Here's a (partial) TOC: Volume 1 - Technology Changing the face of Money The Legislature's Perspective on the Future of Money Legal and Regulatory Challenges on the Development of Digital Money Privacy and American Business Introduction to Card and Identification Technology ... Advanced Identification Technology Workshop ... Advances in Signature Verification A Proposed Standard for Biometric Decidability New Imaging Technology Enables Non-intrusive Credit Card Fraud Prevention Secure Private Key Generation using a Finderprint Photo-ID Encryption and Pattern Recognition for Counterfeit Resistance The Voice Password(tm) Chip Low-Cost Biometric Security A Direct Fingerprint Reader Smart Card Technology Seminar ... Magnetic Stripe Card Technology Seminar ... Biometric Technology Seminar ... Optical Memory Card Technology Seminar ... RFID Technology Seminar ... PC Card Technology Seminar ... 2-D Bar Code Technology Seminar ... Volume 2 -- Applications Stored Value Card Applications Seminar ... Telecommunications Applications Seminar ... Government Applications Seminar Go Beyond Security -- Build in Privacy: One Does Not Equal The Other ... A Citizen Card for Europe The Spanish Social Security Card Project (TASS) Government Cards and the Information Age Information Security Applications Seminar ... Physical Security Applications Seminar ... Financial Applications Seminar ... Retail & Loyalty Applications Seminar ... Large Scale Identifications Seminar What's New in Licensing and Department Motor Vehicles Applications Welfare ID at the Point of Transactions Using Fingerprints & 2D Bar Codes INS Card Production Strategies and Initiaitives Counterfeiting of Cards Korean IC Card Market and Trends of Development and Investment Campus-Wide CardIssuance at the State University of New York National ID Programs Around the World Trends in National ID Programs The Future of Large Scale Identification Applications Health Care Applications Seminar ... Transportation Applications Seminar ... University Applications Seminar ... -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems "We're not gonna take it/Never did and never will We're not gonna take it/Gonna break it, gonna shake it, let's forget it better still" -- The Who, "Tommy" From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 3 12:20:16 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 03:20:16 +0800 Subject: TrustBucks Message-ID: At 6:11 AM 8/2/96, TrustBuckFella wrote: >An alternative model of electronic money. > >Every model of electronic money I know of except one retains some degree >of centralization. There is always a central "mint", usually a bank. If >you can't find a bank that acts the way you want, you're SOL. And the >only thing that enforces non-abuse (inflation, etc) by the bank is the >equivalence of electronic money to some form of "real" money. The sole >exception is Digicash. Unfortunately, Digicash has no restraint on ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >infinite spending-into-debt. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You want to elaborate on this contention? If Alice transfers Digicash-type money to Bob, this is because Alice either bought the DC-money someplace, or already had it, or otherwise arranged with a bank to make the transaction. Maybe the bank "loaned" her money she didn't already have, but this is a completely separable issue from the form of DC-money. So what is this "restraint on infinite spending-into-debt"? Gullible lenders can always lend her vast amounts of money which she may never repay, but this is fully separable from what transfer protocol she uses to "spend" this loaned money. If, on the other hand, your point is something about inflation, this is also separable. Digicash and other forms of electronic money are generally not currencies per se, but are a kind of transfer order, more like a check. As such, not directly implicated in the issue of inflation. >I'm not going to try to develop the cryptographic protocols for >TrustBucks. I haven't got the requisite paranoia and pickiness >(compliments both) for that. TrustBucks also has nothing in the way of >anonymity and restraint on double-spending right now. If you can see how >it could be anonymous or restrain double-spending and still work, please >feel free to add. No protocols. No anonymity. No protection against double-spending. Looks promising. Keep us informed. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From minow at apple.com Sat Aug 3 12:27:19 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 03:27:19 +0800 Subject: More evidence that democracy is bunk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lucky Green writes: >At 3:11 8/2/96, Deranged Mutant wrote: > >>If they were asked if they minded random searches of their bags and >>belongings or required to carry photo-ID wherever they went, to be >>presented on demand, would they still be willing? > >You bet. I remember a war on drugs releated poll from a few years back in >which a majority supported warrantless searches of their homes. > At last month's SAFE (crypto policy) conference, one of the legislators mentioned that someone snuck the text of the Fourth Amendment into the crime bill, and it was voted down in committee. (It would be nice to dig this out of a transcript, so it doesn't become an urban legand.) Martin Minow minow at apple.com From minow at apple.com Sat Aug 3 12:28:19 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 03:28:19 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" In-Reply-To: <199608030923.CAA22990@toad.com> Message-ID: Does the English Only bill conflict with the UN Declaration of Human Rights (Article 2): Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Note: "freedom of language" For that matter, does the escrowed crypto legislation conflict with Article 12: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. My understanding is that the United States is (finally) a signatory to the Declaration. Martin Minow minow at apple.com From sandfort at crl.com Sat Aug 3 12:36:53 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 03:36:53 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030750.CAA11930@einstein> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Jim Choate's dog wrote: > Because none of these issues have ever been tested in a court > of law... Wrong. Most, if not all of them have. > ...any comments I or any other person makes (even if a lawyer) > is simply personal opinion. In other words, Jim thinks his legal opinion is just as good as anyone else's. A nice eqalitarian sentiment, but obviously unfounded. There is such a thing as an educated opinion, as there are also pig ignorant opinions. > > A. Where does Jim get the terms of the contract he implies from > > the simple word "public"?... > Public - > > of or pertaining to the people; not private...yada yada yada. Jim thinks a dictionary definition of "private" are terms of a contract. Interesting. > I first learned about the cpunks list in Mondo 2000 several > years ago not long after I got PGP 1.0... But, Jude was not and is not an owner of the Cypherpunks list. Whatever she wrote (and I don't have that issue before me) in no way binds the owner even if there were some validity to Jim's fanciful claims about the legal requirements on "public" lists. > I also think a court would accept that argument. That and US$1.25 will get you coffee at the Top of the Mark. > > B. I'm unaware that the Cypherpunks list has ever been advertised > > as "public" by the list owner. (emphasis added) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > It has appeared in many publications which are intended for > general or 'public' distribution in every one of those > publications it was made clear that anyone was welcome and the > subscription address was provided. Jim apparently thinks a person can be bound by the opinions expressed in a "public" forum by a third party. Okay, in this public forum I publically state that people (such as Jim) who post really dumb, psuedo-legalistic posts have to pay each list member a buck for spamming. > The list operators ignorance of the consequences of their > actions... What actions? > in no way alleviates them of the consequences of those actions. Mock legalese in no way alleviates Jim from the consequences of making uneducated legal pronouncements in front of God and everybody. > It isn't my interpretation. Whose interpretation is it then. Is Jim disavowing his own pronouncement? > ... These issues have never been tested in a court of law in > the US in regards to computer networks and their special > nature. Maybe because the issues of "public" (which Jim tells us, below, is" a public place is someplace which is operated using public monies") lists do not require resorting to any "special nature" of computer networks and can simply be addressed by pre-existing legal princples covering run-of-the-mill membership organizations. > > > > A restaurant or bookstore is a public place in that it is open > > > > to the public. > > > > > > I know of no state in the union where a bookstore, restaurant, > > > mall, etc. is considered public. > > > > Actually, it's the law in ALL states in the union since the Public > > Accomidations Act was enacted... > Not in Texas. We recently passed a law (Jan. 8) which permits citizens legaly > registered to carry concealed weapons. Because the way the law was worded it > was made clear in many newspapers and such that the ONLY way that business > could prohibit patrons from entering their premises with those weapons was > because they were PRIVATE property and therefore excluded from the > constraints of the law. Jim does not seem to understand that the Public Accomidation Act is applied PRIMARILY to private property. It is his loony-toon sea-lawyer concepts of "public," as in public list, that are the cause of his total misunderstanding of the legal issues here. > [Interesting but irrelevant gun law lore elided] > > Now there is one caveat that most of you will have caught. That > is the definitions of public above. In short, we have a circular > argument as the law is worded now. Duh. > > > Legaly a public place is someplace which is operated using > > > public monies. > > > > Like the Cypherpunks list? Citation, please. > > The Cpunks list isn't a place. It is a steam of characters. First, where is Jim's citation with regard to the definition of a public place? I'd like to see him support just one of his outrages legal claims with at least a scintilla of evidence. Second, what legal evidence does Jim have that the sender of a stream of characters (i.e., the provider of a service--free in this case) is under any obligation to continue to provide a forum for people he no longer wishes to provide said forum? This is the crux of the issue. Jim can get into all the side issues he wants about gun laws and whether his dog should vote. The question before us is, may those who run the Cypherpunks list have the right arbitrarily throw someone off the list, even though it be advertised as "public"? Clearly people have been thrown off such public lists (including, I believe, Cypherpunks). Nothing happened. If Jim believes the outcome should have been otherwise, he has the burden of proof of explaining why. He may, of course, again offer his odd legal opinions, uncontaminated by actual legal knowledge, but actual recourse to the law would be a lot more convincing. Of course, if Jim actually comes up with something better than his opinions, I'll be ready to address such arguments. > ...My lawyers both got theirs at UT Austin Law School. Both are > federal lawyers and both have argued before the Supreme and are > currently allowed to argue before the Supremes. Cool. Please have them post something on this thread. I'd love to see their analysis of "public" list liability. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From sandfort at crl.com Sat Aug 3 13:07:06 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 04:07:06 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608031145.GAA12155@einstein> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Jim Choate's dog wrote: > > ...Prices rise over time because of inflation of the money > > supply... > Then why didn't the costs rise at the same rate as the general > inflation rate instead of tens of times faster? Simple. In a market economy, with or without inflation, relative prices are constantly changing in response to changes in supply and demand, and as capital is moved among investments to maximize return. In an inflationary environment the result is that while all (or at least most) prices are rising, some will rise faster than others in the short term. Q.E.D. > If the cost of airline tickets matched the rise in milk then my > gallon of milk would cost over $10 instead of the $2... > [Jim supported his /post hoc/ argument by saying it applied to > a lot of things, i.e., he did not address the issue, but in > essence said /post hoc/ does not apply when there's a whole > bunch of it.] > > ...It is clear that with a increase of x5 in this area and > something like < x2 in the commodities area that something is > at play here other than pure inflation. Only to someone who does not understand economics. A counter example is the unregulated computer industry. Prices rise very little, if at all, and even undergo price deflation at times. > A straw man is where I take one situation and compare it to > another. Sorry, this is incorrect. (We call that an analogy.) The definition of "straw man" I used came directly from the dictionary. Now you may have a "personal" definition, but I doubt it's widely shared. (Ref., my Lewis Carrol quote in my exchange with the pomey.) If there are no other questions, class is dismissed. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From drosoff at ARC.unm.EDU Sat Aug 3 13:22:29 1996 From: drosoff at ARC.unm.EDU (David Rosoff) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 04:22:29 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960803183603.3b57cd10@arc.unm.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 09.02 PM 8/2/96 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote: >>Can you name another business that has comparable mark-ups? > >Verisign? > >InterNic Domain name registration? > >Licence plates in Washington state? All the money they could possibly make is peanuts compared to the colossal rip-off of compact discs. :) =============================================================================== David Rosoff (nihongo ga sukoshi dekiru) ---------------> drosoff at arc.unm.edu PGP public key 0xD37692F9 -----> finger drosoff at acoma.arc.unm.edu or keyservers 0xD37692F9 Key fingerprint = 25 7D AA 01 85 41 43 89 50 5A 33 76 F1 F1 99 67 Do you know who's reading your email? ---> http://www.arc.unm.edu/~drosoff/pgp/ Is it a forgery? --- I have PGP signed all email and news posts since May 1996. =============================================================================== "Relax. It's not a real alarm. They can't crack _Pentagon_ codes. Can they?" :p -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgOXvxguzHDTdpL5AQGzyQP/cDvyqIPmlU1Gg6BE+4u4GQb/RNe6LPa8 AR8fqae+dnEMsqRBF5ChEXNwNDxXCMzxVF0xXhVytlLUonlPpKCTL5E3YZ7nrj5/ SkO0/QpnyqTH1wzb6dV9RBcSxF0+V6EWX1rbHEqfXna52qWOCjDsaH3Wno5FZGJF O60tNSmcVcE= =8vn1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Sat Aug 3 13:24:57 1996 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 04:24:57 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software In-Reply-To: <199607302110.OAA05638@netcom8.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608030749.IAA00194@server.test.net> Bill Frantz writes: > [...] many of them are taking public positions on the ProCODE > bill. Another of the things they are doing is deploying strong > crypto domestically. > > Here is a start at a list of such companies: > > Community ConneXion - Too much to mention, Thanks Sameer > IBM - The Anarchistic Key Authorization system (from U of Texas), > see 6th Usenix Security Symposium proceedings > Netscape - SSL > PGP Inc - 'nuff said > Sun Microsystems - SKIP implementation, PGP v3 implementation Sun PGP v3? Whats the story behind this item? Are sun sponsoring PGP v3 development? Adam -- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i At 10:02 8/3/96, Martin Minow wrote: >At last month's SAFE (crypto policy) conference, one of the >legislators mentioned that someone snuck the text of the >Fourth Amendment into the crime bill, and it was voted down >in committee. > >(It would be nice to dig this out of a transcript, so it doesn't >become an urban legand.) I remember when this originally happened. It was on the news. But I thought it happened in the full House. Should be in the Congressional Record. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From shamrock at netcom.com Sat Aug 3 13:28:49 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 04:28:49 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" Message-ID: At 10:20 8/3/96, Martin Minow wrote: >My understanding is that the United States is (finally) a signatory >to the Declaration. That doesn't matter. Violations would have to be tried by the World Court in Den Haag. The US does not recognize decisions made there (unless it suits their purpose). -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From markm at voicenet.com Sat Aug 3 13:33:47 1996 From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 04:33:47 +0800 Subject: Liberating Clipper Stuff from Mykotronx Dumpsters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > He scanned or typed this stuff he found into a text file and sent it to one > of the earliest members of the Cypherpunks list, asking for it to be passed > on to someone who could do something with it. A few hours later, via > anonymous remailer posting, it went out to the several hundred subscribers > to the Cypherpunks list at that time. (It's somewhere in the archives, such > as they are. This would be around late April, 1993, possibly May-June.) These files can also be found at ftp.funet.fi/mirrors/dsi/cypherpunks/clipper/ mykotronx*, as the archives are still down. - -- Mark PGP encrypted mail prefered Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348 http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMgObhbZc+sv5siulAQEAiAQAoFJQ0vREu1gORRFIoTGvD7paTNppiIg5 OW5yL88NBUBAhR9Y6kpD53EPU1pCkkv1nVqYXIrvS5PdfIC7lCfsXRs/GG7NkZUf BgBKzNFEHVRo4nIQA5HtSDfPL5AcH6cA5XIZiReo8VMPOmV/xQR7b2IPRxohlJCH 8ALe1MsysSs= =LBhD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alano at teleport.com Sat Aug 3 13:37:10 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 04:37:10 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960803184244.00e284e4@mail.teleport.com> At 12:18 AM 8/3/96 -0700, Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: >>> As long as you are enforcing it on everyone, I don't think you'd have a >>> problem, but to force some one from cooking food for homeless people, and >>> allow a family barbeque, is IMO wrong. >> >>Not at all. Businesses have no rights, individuals do. Businesses have a > >>Blueberries they bought at the local HEB). Individuals have a right to >>privacy, that includes cooking themselves food without harrassment. Business >>on the other hand are selling products of potentialy questionable quality. A > >I disagree with your sentiments about Business and rights, however, in this >instance, even that wasn't the issue. Food Not Bombs is NOT a business, it's >a not-for-profit organization that gives out (not sells) food. They are the >same as, I think Tim May pointed out, a Boy Scout picnic, except for the >homless, not the boy scouts. They are also Anarchists. (They are referenced on various Anarchist web pages, among other places.) My personal belief is that they are being prosecuted because they bill themselves as Anarchists and not for what they are doing. If this has been "Society Wives Against Hunger", there would have been no problems at all. (And probibly commendations from the local paper and civic leaders.) Locally, people who have billed themselves as Anarchists have been monitored by the police, harased, and arrested. (Remember: you only deserve the protection of the state if you do not oppose the state.) It seems that this country is quite willing to harrass fringe political groups when the "powers that be" feel they can get away with it. (Which is quite often.) --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Sat Aug 3 14:38:06 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 05:38:06 +0800 Subject: The Hazards of Reading Naughty Newsgroups at Work Message-ID: <199608031945.MAA22460@jobe.shell.portal.com> The following interesting article appeared on page 6 of the August 3, 1996 Seattle Times. County Accuses Four of Using the Internet to Access Child Porn -------------------------------------------------------------- By Ronald K. Fitten Seattle Times Staff Reporter Four men, including two former Microsoft employees, have been charged with allegedly using computers to access child pornography on the Internet, said King County Prosecutor Norm Maleng. "Traditional law-enforcement efforts against child pornography have focused on magazines, movies, and tangible materials," Maleng said yesterday. "But law enforcement faces new challenges with the emergence of new technology. The Internet, with its millions of international web sites, has become the new underground highway for illegal child pornography." The two former Microsoft engineers, Michael Seaman, 37, of Kirkland, and Ronald Rosul Jr., 31, of Seattle, allegedly used Microsoft computers to access and copy child pornography from the Internet, according to prosecutors. Microsoft said both were fired after Microsoft discovered the alleged crimes in October 1995. Seaman is charged with possession of child pornography. He allegedly used his Microsoft computer to collect more than 2,500 files of photographs of young children in sexual poses or being sexually abused. Rosul is also charged with possession of child pornography. He allegedly used Microsoft equipment to manufacture a CD-ROM disk containing child pornography. Both Seaman and Rosul will be arraigned next week in King County Superior Court. If convicted, both could receive up to one year in jail. Maleng, who said police and prosecutors worked cooperatively with Microsoft throughout the investigation, said law-enforcement officers had confiscated computer hard drives, CD-ROMs, and printed materials as evidence. Microsoft spokesman Mark Murray said the company found out about the activities of its two former employees last year and alerted police. "We provided the police with the computers to pull up the evidence," Murray said. In an unrelated case, William D. Powell, 52, or Renton, and Dwight Hunter, 48, of Bellevue, are charged with possession of and dealing in child pornography. Powell, an unemployed engineer, is accused of using his home computer to exchange child pornography with Hunter. If convicted of both offenses, Powell, who has a warrant out for his arrest after failing to appear at his arraignment three weeks ago, could be sentenced to between 21 and 27 months in prison. Hunter, an unemployed salesman, is accused of using his home computer to exchange child pornography with Powell and of having photographs in his computer disks of children engaged in several types of sexual activities with adults, other children, and a dog. Hunter will be arraigned next week. If convicted, he could receive almost three years in prison. From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 3 14:38:09 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 05:38:09 +0800 Subject: Let's Say "No!" to Single, World Versions of Software Message-ID: At 7:49 AM 8/3/96, Adam Back wrote: >Bill Frantz writes: >> Sun Microsystems - SKIP implementation, PGP v3 implementation > >Sun PGP v3? Whats the story behind this item? Are sun sponsoring PGP >v3 development? Derek Atkins is being paid by Sun for his work on v3, last I heard. --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From pjn at nworks.com Sat Aug 3 15:39:06 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 06:39:06 +0800 Subject: Who the hell is .... Message-ID: In> OK, I'v been on the list a bit now. I see a lot of the same In> people posting to it, In> My question is " Who the Hell is Sternlight" At first I thought In> it was a pen name ( the light on the end of a boat ?? ) Close... If you shone a light throught one ear, it would come out the other... P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... We are Hippies of Borg. Make love. War is irrelevant. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From hallam at ai.mit.edu Sat Aug 3 16:57:53 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 07:57:53 +0800 Subject: Jewell is the Militia Bomber!!!! In-Reply-To: <4tqcv0$2b1@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3203CC50.167E@ai.mit.edu> Hey folks, relax eh? Its generally best when the police don't release every bit of information on their investigations as they progress. Far from criticising the police for having investigated Jewell on no or little evidence you should criticise them for telling us about the evidence they do have. Although prosecuting a security guard in order to rob the terrorists of publicity is a cute trick I don't think the US authorities are that smart. In the past USGov has been less than sparkling in its ability to keep a lid on secrets like that. Phill From rah at shipwright.com Sat Aug 3 17:47:25 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 08:47:25 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:10 PM -0400 8/2/96, Timothy C. May wrote: > (Examples abound in other areas, too, such as where large chip companies > like Intel actually relish the vast amounts of paperwork they are required > to fill out, becuase this overhead and legal burden can be handled by their > buildings full of paper pushers, but helps to keep small companies from > entering the market. Milton Freedman observed this in "Free to Choose". He said something to the effect that regulation only *helps* the existing players in any given market by increasing barriers to entry, especially for smaller firms. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Sat Aug 3 17:57:19 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 08:57:19 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy In-Reply-To: <199608022351.SAA14955@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 1996 ichudov at algebra.com wrote: > George Kuzmowycz wrote: > > In an ideal world, the rest of the group would agree with me and say > > "Yup, we have no business reading e-mail." Since that's not likely, > > I'm looking for examples of "privacy-friendly" corporate policies > > that I can put on the table in our meetings, and end up with a > > minority report. > > > > Maybe it is only me, but I recommend "privacy-fascist" policy. This way > employees will at least know to keep their own business out of computers > that will be monitored by the company anyways. > I think you need to take the "fascist" approach, at least officially. I would hope that, unofficially, you don't monitor, eavesdrop, etc., unless a problem requires you to. (such as receiving email from another site that attacks have been detected, originating from your systems, etc.) If you don't take the "fascist" approach, you are granting employees a "reasonable expectation of privacy", which you cannot, in truth, provide (without spending a lot of additional money). Once you've put your company in this position, you've now set them up for an employee to have their "privacy" violated, so you've increased the company's risk. The benefits of running a "privacy friendly" corporate system just don't outweigh the costs and risks. If somebody wants to read alt.sex.whatever-floats-their-boat, I really don't care, but I don't want to be in the position of ensuring their privacy while doing so on corporate equipment; they can get their own 'net account and play at home. I prefer to put out an official "fascist sysadmin's system use policy", and then leave users to themselves, as long as I don't get any complaints of illegal activity that could land my company in hot water. What you publish as a use policy, and what you actively enforce do not have to be the same. Just my $.02. From TrustBuckFella at nowhere.com Sat Aug 3 18:51:45 1996 From: TrustBuckFella at nowhere.com (TrustBuckFella) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 09:51:45 +0800 Subject: TrustBucks Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May): > You want to elaborate on this contention? > > If Alice transfers Digicash-type money to Bob, this is because Alice either > bought the DC-money someplace, or already had it, or otherwise arranged > with a bank to make the transaction. Maybe the bank "loaned" her money she Mistaken terminology, mea culpa. The scheme I was thinking of is actually called Private Currency. Someone mistakenly labelled the writeup Digicash and I cut and pasted without thinking. I do know the difference when my brain is on. s/Digicash/Private Currency. Apologies to Digicash. I'll explain Private Currency and why it's good and bad. In Private Currency you don't "buy the [money] someplace". You mint it when paying. Alice and Bob check each other's public debt and if neither is scared off by the other's high debt, they mint a debt for Alice and money for Bob. They publish a record of the transaction, which is how they knew each other's public debt in the first step. So in theory the amount of currency in existance is exactly 0. In practice I wouldn't trust anyone for a debt that I didn't trust directly for that amount. I believe the scheme would stall. I conceived TrustBucks as an alternative that would retain the decentralization but work. > No protocols. No anonymity. No protection against double-spending. > > Looks promising. Keep us informed. Fine. I doubt my mechanisms will be optimal but here you go. Restraint on double-spending: Each participant publishes a list of the ID and value all outstanding TrustBucks of their own variety. Value of the notes can be obscured so it can only be verified by someone who has seen the note itself. What if some participant doesn't publish a complete list? Well, who are they robbing? People who directly trusted them for that amount and now won't ever again. Anonymity: Each participant identifies their currency by a randomly chosen ID-number instead of name and publishes their ID/value under that number. However, it's pretty pointless, since the chain of trust has a hard time extending beyond people who directly know each other anyways. A better objection would have been that it's hard to identify a chain of mutually trusting links between two strangers who want to make a transaction. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.1 iQCVAwUBMgPoDJi7GCxryNrZAQHeEgQAmHsJithWMhmRv4y3IjnCBFKAgmZLCQ+i NVYGDBVJ19iwAOTTwqHgcYMGEYdKBLUaBMRAczJDfGRbsB6WbFLKyiESHT8gpV7R 6CVesb7XpRaVDBylgTvoE/NNXfNrLrTfWOeVWtivMSVkDRKJC6BbONR1J5juhQjv A9s1wa/uwSw= =hsSY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Aug 3 18:51:50 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 09:51:50 +0800 Subject: Digital Telephony costs $2 Message-ID: <199608040010.RAA21627@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:52 AM 8/3/96 -0800, Chris Adams wrote: >On 3 Aug 96 01:16:48 -0800, jimbell at pacifier.com wrote: > >> I propose that the better way of implementing it, rather than going through >>a sound card, is for modem manufacturers to built an new modem with an >>extra telephone connection (perhaps the same physical connector that's >>currently used for the telephone handset) which goes to an ordinary >>telephone and does the audio A/D and D/A conversion, as well as the data >>compression/data expansion function that will be necessary. The latter >>function would be done by an extra DSP on this modem/Internet telephone card. > >If you were so inclined, you could implement the whole thing for MWave >modems. They are fast enough to handle 28.8k and sound card functions at >the same time off of a single DSP. That seems a bit difficult to believe. I get the impression that implementing a 28.8Kbps+ modem pretty much uses up the capability of a near-state-of-the-art DSP chip. Further, recently an item appeared on CP concerning a new voice-compression standard that was claimed to put good-quality voice into a 2400 bps stream. Each function, coding and decoding, was claimed to occupy about (don't recall the exact figures) a little over half the capability of a TI 32025 DSP chip, which admittedly is an older unit. Assuming full-duplex is desired (and that's the purpose of this exercise) you'd need the full resources of something with greater 'ooomph' than a 32025 just for the coding/decoding. Sure, it may not be necessary to compress voice audio all the way down to 2400 bps, since the current modem standards allow 28.8kbps and beyond, but I suggest that decreasing net traffic by a factor of 12 (28.8k to 2.4k) is a desirable goal. Remember, in the long term "everybody" will be using Internet telephone. (And no doubt you've noticed that high-volume hardware gets cheap, really fast. Putting in a second DSP for compression/encryption won't increase the costs all that much.) Leaving the encryption in hardware would improve exportability, at least from a legal/ITAR standpoint. While eventually full-fiber-capacity Internet will be able to increase the capacity to "unlimited" levels, in the meantime the capacity is limited (by switches if nothing else) and going the extra mile to limit Internet telephone's impact on the national net would be better. >With the right drivers you could use >the telephone/speaker/mic jacks that are on most of the integrated cards. > Also, they have a standard realtime OS with most of the functions being >portable across cards as well, so you'd have to do very little work to >support other Mwave cards. The reason I think a system I've described has a future is that modem manufacturers have a PROBLEM. Their problem is that they've pretty much run out of room to improve the bit-pushing through a 3 KHz bandwidth. Sure, they can focus their attention on cable modems or ISDN units or other toys, but the market for such beasts won't develop for a few years. They'll pretty much be stuck doing an occasional upgrade, or selling into new computers, but that will slow down. What they'd like to have is a new function that "everybody" wants to have, and allowing people to bypass LD telephone charges is a powerful motivating factor to get people to upgrade their modems. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From alano at teleport.com Sat Aug 3 19:04:17 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 10:04:17 +0800 Subject: Liberating Clipper Stuff from Mykotronx Dumpsters Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960804002934.00f11750@mail.teleport.com> At 02:33 PM 8/3/96 -0400, Mark M. wrote: > >These files can also be found at ftp.funet.fi/mirrors/dsi/cypherpunks/clipper/ >mykotronx*, as the archives are still down. Actually the path is: ftp://ftp.funet.fi/mirrors/ftp.dsi.unimi.it/cypherpunks/clipper/ --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From edgar at garg.campbell.ca.us Sat Aug 3 19:34:22 1996 From: edgar at garg.campbell.ca.us (Edgar Swank) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 10:34:22 +0800 Subject: SecureDrive News Message-ID: <3203ee7d.1399699@news.earthlink.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- SecureDrive Users: It's been brought to my attention that the detached signatures for two executable files in SECDR14B.ZIP don't verify. COPYSECT.EXE FPART.EXE These were supposed to be identical to the 1.4/1.4a files, so the same signatures were used. It seems the files were inadvertantly re-compiled with a different version compiler, hence the mismatch. Anyone concerned, can use the files from SECDR14A.ZIP, which are still available, and should match the signatures. It's also been said by a couple of correspondents that the listing of CRC values from PKZIP could be easily counterfeited. Accordingly, here is a list of MD5 digest values for SECDR14B.ZIP and all contained files. CHK-SAFE.EXE Ver 2.51 by Bill Lambdin Don Peters and Robert Bullock. MD5 Message Digest Algorithm by RSA Data Security, Inc. File name Size Date Time MD5 Hash ________________________________________________________________________ SECDR14B.ZIP 132389 07-21-96 05:23 8de408deac3499a458764a50f691eca0 SECDRV.DOC 54081 07-20-96 19:45 9807d8301ec46f4d3903fbd5fe5ac438 LOGIN.EXE 43718 07-20-96 20:12 b0ab456fb143c37855000bd0a9650482 CRYPTDSK.EXE 42564 07-20-96 20:12 025f07b300e398792c5ce2d309881cd0 SECTSR.ASM 32595 08-06-95 00:00 4d0ee685a96ef26e574809dcf4b0b96e CRYPTDSK.C 20623 07-20-96 19:34 0a8d238492fd0b37090a7b7f527903e8 CRYPT2.ASM 19664 11-19-93 21:42 d774eca62b4ba6552e1cda74f2b4f05d LOGIN.C 18598 07-20-96 19:41 c2850e1427e2eb7126df83b720b57ce5 COPYING 18321 06-14-93 22:27 ad4652e2dcfd4a0ecf91a2c01a7defd5 FPART.EXE 15466 07-20-96 20:12 bac8c6e72f99983e132fec7cf6ca9b48 SDCOMMON.C 14998 06-12-96 18:06 18ec797c194c4c34b81c5185c861065a SETENV.ASM 13011 07-20-96 19:48 9b52beb40986d9df4bcce09bbf5d80e5 COPYSECT.EXE 12606 07-20-96 20:12 dbe7ae98b6d187d9904ddff72515c72a MD5.C 11557 05-09-93 19:38 951169a660ad48449ab6c0cbe20f3d3b KEY.ASC 5278 11-14-95 20:52 3a9040d3863aaffd030b570173e38b5d FPART.C 4353 08-06-95 00:00 963aaaf429a6de80133aa0856ac8c424 SECDRV.H 3656 08-06-95 00:00 2e29ce5abbd5085503aee10a2adda26b MD5.H 3407 05-11-93 12:49 3b254fd2c035f3081ca2ec96ea120f9a COPYSECT.C 2022 08-06-95 00:00 91f9b9da8addd893cf71e3fc6f8e7bf7 SECTSR.COM 2000 07-20-96 20:12 7ab3ea1e58673bb81158ac20e663836d MAKEFILE 1554 08-06-95 00:00 6e58f4269326251b342d5d7971ddac54 RLDBIOS.ASM 1355 01-21-94 08:44 dbfe21f1440f2021ce04738b95a5e3ec USUALS.H 1254 05-09-93 19:39 270fa89c0ff884ee10d1a02a1ff9040d FILE_ID.DIZ 278 12-06-95 20:33 343cf830a0975aaaef88327625c97396 COPYSECT.SIG 152 08-06-95 00:00 7a208bb9c283ca3574578edb4215457d CRYPTDSK.SIG 152 06-01-96 01:10 d4eba61786e984d2b3e7576c5629abb8 FPART.SIG 152 08-06-95 00:00 82462ce35887ebdc57fb603521e34263 LOGIN.SIG 152 06-01-96 01:09 7fc1f6d8a3292c50b6b790603cf3fa2c SECTSR.SIG 152 08-06-95 00:00 a4cebfb7b0e69a0b678ed3382aeff9a2 The CHK-SAFE program can be obtained at ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/fileutil/cs-251.zip Regards, Edgar W. Swank Edgar W. Swank Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html Author of SecureDrive Version 1.4b -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgPttN4nNf3ah8DHAQGCUAP/QMI92acYiyV4v739rvIDM/MVe08+6D+D ZGGZ0dKgSxHLBV9iO+u754R+A3aUGXUM8PFHjGLRFjytFs+dLWo8w5XMqnOYZasJ 26hTSWzgzubNzV2jrnOlcHi4mw5+v5kOjnFycORXaJ/1pNjB2LIB+98DwujPdYDt M+tD0ojh8vc= =KkGX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Edgar W. Swank Edgar W. Swank Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html From WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com Sat Aug 3 22:31:54 1996 From: WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com (Deranged Mutant) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 13:31:54 +0800 Subject: Crypto added to anti-terror bill in US at last minute?!?!! Message-ID: <199608040346.XAA24376@unix.asb.com> >From ACLU's site: http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/terror.html The latest understanding from ACLU's legislative representatives is that the "Anti Terrorism" bill that is expected to be acted on today and tomorrow will include government controls on encryption -- a scheme for key escrow of private keys for encryption. It is also likely to include expanded use of wiretapping without a Court order. --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 3 22:33:10 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 13:33:10 +0800 Subject: Pipe bombs vs high explosives. Message-ID: <199608040337.UAA17682@dns1.noc.best.net> Does anyone have any experimental information comparing an untamped high explosive with a pipe bomb? A pipe bomb is a device for getting a decent explosion out of a low explosive, such as gunpowder. A low explosive combusts relatively slowly. The purpose of the pipe is to hold it together for long enough to get decent pressure. Homemade low explosives tend to be even more feeble than manufactured low explosives, because it is inadvisable for amateurs to recorn their powder, with the result that home made powders burn slow, whereas homemade high explosives are just as effective as manufactured high explosives. My theoretical expectation is that pipe bombs would be very ineffectual when compared to high explosives, especially using home made powders. Note that very large pipe bombs can be made by using propane cylinders or compressed gas cylinders in place of pipes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 3 22:34:07 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 13:34:07 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608040337.UAA17692@dns1.noc.best.net> At 07:48 PM 8/2/96 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > John Conyers, the ranking > Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, blasted Gingrich and the > Republican leadership for "bringing a meaningless bill to the House > floor." > > Conyers said to reporters at 1 pm: "It's a hoax on the American > people. It is all bark and no bite... This bill is missing the > important wiretapping provisions that would allow law enforcement to > find and stop terrorists before they kill. I remember the old days when the conservatives were the Law'n Order guys. (pulling my long white beard and vigorously shaking my rocking chair) These days when somebody dies in police custody, you automatically know that the caring progressive lovers of the poor and oppressed are running the city where it happened. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com Sat Aug 3 22:35:55 1996 From: WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com (Deranged Mutant) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 13:35:55 +0800 Subject: ITAR Message-ID: <199608040339.XAA24208@unix.asb.com> On 2 Aug 96 at 16:50, Dave Koontz wrote: > How about exporting programs, that when executed generate source code for > encryption algorithms? Nope. There already are such things. Make a .zip archive and convert it into a self-extracting program. Rob --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. From WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com Sat Aug 3 22:44:35 1996 From: WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com (Deranged Mutant) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 13:44:35 +0800 Subject: Disregard that last bit of FUD... Message-ID: <199608040350.XAA24481@unix.asb.com> Nevermind. I realized the ACLU excerpt I sent out wasn't so up to date (or was it...?) Rob --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 3 22:56:23 1996 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 13:56:23 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608040412.VAA06740@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 02 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: >At 07:48 PM 8/2/96 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> and black and smokeless powder taggants. > >Such materials will be easy to defeat. Find an indoor shooting range, >vacuum up the powder residue that falls in front of the shooting stalls, >and you'll have a concentrated mixture of literally hundreds of types of >taggants. Add to bomb. Laughing, at this point, is optional. > >Jim Bell >jimbell at pacifier.com In addition to powder residue, collect all the spent shell casings you can, especially ones that are of the same caliber as weapons you own. In addition to the possibility of reloading them (and saving a bundle on ammo costs) you can sprinkle them around liberally in the aftermath of an encounter (assuming you survive) and give the crime scene people a bunch of red herrings to deal with. Of course, you should never touch them, (the FBI got DNA samples from stamps the Unabomber licked on his mailbombs, so even tiny droplets of sweat can bust you) and you should collect the actual brass fired and sandblast it. Incidentally, one of the interesting traits of a shotgun is that buckshot is not subject to the ballistics matching techniques used on rifle and pistol bullets. The plastic wads (which prevent the shot from touching the barrel) do not take the microscopically detailed impressions from the barrel that copper or lead bullets do. The heat from firing always melts the plastic slightly--enough to defeat this. Of course, if you leave the fired shells lying around, the primer and ejector marks can bite you... > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > MICRON COMMUNICATIONS, INC., ANNOUNCES AGREEMENT WITH THE FEDERAL > AVIATION ADMINISTRATION > > Boise, Idaho, August 2, 1996 - Micron Communications, Inc., today > announced a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRDA) > with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to develop a model > Positive Passenger Baggage Matching (PPBM) system. The objective > of this PPBM system is to automatically recognize when baggage has > been placed on an aircraft without an associated passenger. Of course, this means that every time they lose your luggage, you will be detained for "suspected terrorist activity", and the plane your luggage was wrongly sent to will be evacuated while the bomb squad takes it to a remote area and blows it up... (the luggage, not the plane) Jonathan Wienke "1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" --Adolf Hitler "46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." --The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm 1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.? Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB From grafolog at netcom.com Sat Aug 3 23:12:54 1996 From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 14:12:54 +0800 Subject: Future US Postal History -- Indicium to Replace Stamps (fwd) Message-ID: Anybody else think this makes mail snooping a whole lot simpler? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 11:28:54 -0500 From: "Philatelic.Com Email Service" Subject: Future US Postal History -- Indicium to Replace Stamps To: post at philatelic.com Subject: Future US Postal History -- Indicium to Replace Stamps from: dreggen at accessnv.com Reference: Federal Computing Week Volume 10, No.l 29; July 29, 1996 Federal Computing Week (FCW) is a publication of FCW Government Technology Group 3110 Fairview Park Drive -- Suite 1040 Falls Church, VA 22042-4599 USA Tel: 703 - 876 - 5100 Fax: 703 - 876 - 5126 Page 19 USPS Proposed specifications would improve mail security by Colleen O'Hara The following is quote of one topic paragraph from the article: "Defining a Postmark One specification defines what a postmark, or evidence of postage, must look like. USPS has proposed that the new postmark contain a unique digital signature carried in a 2-D bar code. A new indicium substitutes for a postage stamp or postage meter impreint as evidence that postage was paid. Because of the information the indicium will contain, the agency will be better able to deter amil fraud as well as provide additional services, such as mail tracking and tracing, according to Roy Gordon, program manager for the agency's Information Based Indicia Program. 'USPS' inidtial strategy is to sample [letters] in the mail stream and scan on a random basis,' Gordon said. 'In the long term, it will scan 100 percent of the mail to deter fraud. The key is that it provides the USPS [with] the ability to provide additional services to carry that data with mail pieces.' " This whole article is probably a must read for anyone who is following or who is interested in what the postal history of the future will be like. Dale Eggen dreggen at accessnv.com ***************************************************************** People who do not give specific references are cowards who are trying to have an influence on peoples opinion by the manipulation of information to suit their own will. William Shakespear ***************************************************************** _____________________ PHILATELIC.COM-E-MAIL-SERVICE ____________________ * To reply in PRIVATE to the sender, you MUST use their email address. * Selecting REPLY will distribute a PUBLIC message. * Currently reaching over 300 Dealers and Collectors with your email post! __________________________________________________________________________ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ http://www.philatelic.com _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ From schryver at radiks.net Sat Aug 3 23:21:32 1996 From: schryver at radiks.net (Scott Schryvers) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 14:21:32 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <199608040258.VAA06801@sr.radiks.net> >At 8:50 8/2/96, Paul J. Bell wrote: >An international phone call costs about 2 cents/min to produce. The average >rate paid for by the consumer is 62 cents. That's means the carriers mark >up this particular product by an amazing 3000%. > >Can you name another business that has comparable mark-ups? The Medical Industry. PGP encrypted mail preferred. E-Mail me for my key. Scott J. Schryvers From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 3 23:33:32 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 14:33:32 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608031110.GAA12116@einstein> Message-ID: Famine and inadequate nourishment does weaken the stamina and survivability of individuals in the Third World, but the main problem is non-access to (what we consider to be) simple, basic medical modalities. Untold numbers of African babies die of not-very-virulent diseases, because they becomes fatally dehydrated. In the West, these babies revieve IV fluids which carries them over the critical period. In a village that is three days walk to a bus which takes 16 hours to get to a clinic that has IV needles and sterile fluids, the baby WILL die. From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 3 23:35:34 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 14:35:34 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960803071838.006b0808@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: I wouldn't lift a finger to _shut down_ "Food Not Bombs" , but they are not the same as a Boyscout Picnic. A boyscout picnic is a private party. Some people got invited to eat the food, any others who do are stealing. FoodNotBombs just gave away stuff to all comers. From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 3 23:40:47 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 14:40:47 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608031145.GAA12155@einstein> Message-ID: > Since the inflation rate on a dollar is flat across the board in our economy > simple inflation does not account for this rise in prices in a niche market. No. The COnsumer Price Index (the Bureau of Labor Statistics also puts out the Producer Price Index, but that is not as widely reported in the cartoon-news mass media), _is_ a single number, but only because it is _defined as_ a measure of central tendency of all the price rises. It is an artificial number. Each individual price rise, does swing freely. From alano at teleport.com Sat Aug 3 23:49:26 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 14:49:26 +0800 Subject: More to be paranoid about... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960804051419.00b3eaec@mail.teleport.com> Take a look at: http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates Feed it an Oregon licence plate number and it will feed you back all sorts of info about the person/victim. The uses for such things are only limited by an evil imagination... --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From alanh at infi.net Sun Aug 4 00:26:20 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 15:26:20 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608030921.EAA12012@einstein> Message-ID: > perhaps a simple publicity stunt to get their 15 minutes and not realy > to help the homeless/foodless? How could such a thing be. O mon dieu. I am shocked, I tell you - shocked! From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Sun Aug 4 00:47:58 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 15:47:58 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon In-Reply-To: <199608040258.VAA06801@sr.radiks.net> Message-ID: <199608040606.XAA20028@jobe.shell.portal.com> > >At 8:50 8/2/96, Paul J. Bell wrote: > >An international phone call costs about 2 cents/min to produce. The average > >rate paid for by the consumer is 62 cents. That's means the carriers mark > >up this particular product by an amazing 3000%. > > > >Can you name another business that has comparable mark-ups? > The Medical Industry. > PGP encrypted mail preferred. > E-Mail me for my key. > Scott J. Schryvers You guys are confused. The actual telephone call may cost only 2 cents/min, but the accounting and billing procedures are way more expensive. As long as they are doing any kind of usage-based charging, that actual act of charging will continue to cost considerably more than the data transmission. Why do you think sending long-distance IP packets is basically free? - Tom From gcg at pb.net Sun Aug 4 01:37:48 1996 From: gcg at pb.net (Geoffrey C. Grabow) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 16:37:48 +0800 Subject: WARNING: SecureDrive & PartitionMagic Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960804064926.006b59d0@mail.pb.net> It seems rather obvious now, but since I learned the hard way, I figured that I'd save the rest of you from a painful experience. I have one HD of 1.2gb. I created a 50mb partition at the end of the drive using PM and encrypted it with SD14b. I ran out of room on the secured partition and wanted to enlarge it. I used PM to shrink the primary partition a little, and to enlarge the secured partition. When I shrank the primary, the free space on the drive appeared between the two partitions. To enlarge the secondary, I moved it to the free space, then enlarged it on the right. This was BAD! PM did its thing, but no matter what I did after that, I couldn't get the secured partition to a usable state. I ended up formatting the secured partition to recover. After some playing, it seems that PM tries to "re-align" the data on the 2nd partition when you move left. That's where things get screwed up. I tested a few combinations, and found that everything works fine if you decrypt the partition before moving/resizing, then re-encrypt after. Just some friendly info. G.C.G. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Geoffrey C. Grabow | Great people talk about ideas. | | Oyster Bay, New York | Average people talk about things. | | gcg at pb.net | Small people talk about people. | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | PGP 2.6.2 public key available at http://www.pb.net/~wizard | | and on a plethora of key servers around the world. | | Fingerprint = A6 7B 67 D7 E9 96 37 7D E7 16 BD 5E F4 5A B2 E4 | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | That which does not kill us, makes us stranger. - Trevor Goodchild | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 4 02:57:55 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 17:57:55 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <199608040412.VAA06740@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com writes: > Incidentally, one of the interesting traits of a shotgun is that buckshot is > subject to the ballistics matching techniques used on rifle and pistol bullet > The plastic wads (which prevent the shot from touching the barrel) do not tak > the microscopically detailed impressions from the barrel that copper or lead > bullets do. The heat from firing always melts the plastic slightly--enough to > defeat this. Of course, if you leave the fired shells lying around, the prim > and ejector marks can bite you... Is there truth to the rumor that poking a file inside the barrel will alter the marks on future test firings? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Sun Aug 4 05:11:50 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 20:11:50 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960804094852.00304850@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 10:20 03/08/96 -0700, Martin Minow wrote: >Does the English Only bill conflict with the UN Declaration of >Human Rights (Article 2): .. >For that matter, does the escrowed crypto legislation conflict with >Article 12: .. >My understanding is that the United States is (finally) a signatory >to the Declaration. A couple of points need clarification: A Declaration isn't, in international law, binding. A covenant is, provided you haven't just signed it but also ratified it (i.e. made it a part of national law). So the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is basically just a statement of good intentions. Much more important, legally, is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights(ICCPR), http://www.pluggedin.org/amnesty/rights4.htm which the US *ratified* not so long ago. Says the ICCPR Article 17 1. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his honour and reputation. 2. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. Article 19 1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference. 2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice. 3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary: (a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others; (b) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals. ________ Key, in Article 17, is the term "unlawful." With this escape clause, the US gov has no problems, long as they make appropriate laws. Article 19 is more interesting, because restrictions must be shown to be necessary... Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From declan at eff.org Sun Aug 4 07:49:59 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 22:49:59 +0800 Subject: Crypto added to anti-terror bill in US at last minute?!?!! In-Reply-To: <199608040346.XAA24376@unix.asb.com> Message-ID: Congress isn't in session. It would be a genuine trick for them to pass any legislation before September. -Declan On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Deranged Mutant wrote: > >From ACLU's site: http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/terror.html > > The latest understanding from ACLU's legislative representatives is > that the > "Anti Terrorism" bill that is expected to be acted on today and > tomorrow will include government controls on encryption -- a > scheme for key escrow of private keys for encryption. It is also > likely to include expanded use of wiretapping without a Court > order. > --- > No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" > Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) > Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From roger at coelacanth.com Sun Aug 4 09:27:13 1996 From: roger at coelacanth.com (Roger Williams) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 00:27:13 +0800 Subject: [Noise] Future US Postal History... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>>> jonathon writes: > 'USPS' inidtial strategy is to sample [letters] in the mail stream > and scan on a random basis,' Gordon said. 'In the long term, it will > scan 100 percent of the mail to deter fraud... Of course, there's little point in doing this as long as anonymous post boxes still exist, so... -- Roger Williams finger me for my PGP public key Coelacanth Engineering consulting & turnkey product development Middleborough, MA wireless * DSP-based instrumentation * ATE tel +1 508 947-8049 * fax +1 508 947-9118 * http://www.coelacanth.com/ From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 4 09:28:44 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 00:28:44 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608031110.GAA12116@einstein> Message-ID: At 12:55 AM -0400 8/4/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: > Famine and inadequate nourishment does weaken the stamina and > survivability of individuals in the Third World, but the main problem is > non-access to (what we consider to be) simple, basic medical modalities. > Untold numbers of African babies die of not-very-virulent diseases, > because they becomes fatally dehydrated. In the West, these babies > revieve IV fluids which carries them over the critical period. In a > village that is three days walk to a bus which takes 16 hours to get to a > clinic that has IV needles and sterile fluids, the baby WILL die. Actually, it's really a question more of information than transportation. The, heh, solution to diaherrea-induced dehydration -- like the kind you get from Cholera -- is a very simple mixture of sugar, salt, and water. This (and, of course, the proper construction of the sanatation facilities which caused the Cholera to begin with) is just the kind of information which the internet can carry. All we need is a few more cycles of Moore's law and a bunch of microsattelite-based internet routers... And, of course, the microcurrency system to pay for it all. :-). It would certainly be cheaper than "Peace" Corps ecotourism... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 4 09:56:50 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 00:56:50 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon In-Reply-To: <199608040258.VAA06801@sr.radiks.net> Message-ID: At 2:06 AM -0400 8/4/96, anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: > You guys are confused. The actual telephone call may cost only 2 > cents/min, but the accounting and billing procedures are way more > expensive. As long as they are doing any kind of usage-based > charging, that actual act of charging will continue to cost > considerably more than the data transmission. Ah. So, why settle the transactions for digital cash and skip all that overhead? Yet another application for micromoney. It seems to me that I've been arguing -- for two years now -- that digital bearer certificate settlement will prove to be *much* cheaper than book-entry settlement, and here the answer's been looking at us, straight in the face, all this time. Anybody have any ideas how to go about measuring the savings between accumulating, storing, and processing call-billing data and simply paying for them before/during/after the call with digital cash? I hear this strange rumbling underground. Hey, isn't that "Dad" Joiner? Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From jya at pipeline.com Sun Aug 4 10:56:37 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 01:56:37 +0800 Subject: SAC_ard Message-ID: <199608041611.QAA03240@pipe1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> August ScaAm has longish article on smart-cards by Carol Fancher, a Motorola engineer and developer of the smart- card market. ----- http://jya.com/sacard.txt (26 kb) Lynx: http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/sacard.txt Via www.anonymizer.com SAC_ard From sandfort at crl.com Sun Aug 4 11:28:14 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 02:28:14 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM asked: > Is there truth to the rumor that poking a file inside the barrel > will alter the marks on future test firings? I don't know the answer to this one, but my best guess is, A) yes, but not enough to alter the test firing, and B) whether or not it did, it would be strong evidence of an attempt to screw up such a test. There are few (no?) legitimate reasons to harm one's gun thusly. I have heard, but have not evidence for, is that with use, these characteristic markings change. As a result, putting 200-300 rounds through a gun at the range is enough to alter its identifiable barrel markings sufficiently to defeat forensic matching. Don't know, just heard, but it sounds reasonable. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From moroni at scranton.com Sun Aug 4 12:02:39 1996 From: moroni at scranton.com (Moroni) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 03:02:39 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nitric Acid wii change barrelling. On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > JonWienk at ix.netcom.com writes: > > Incidentally, one of the interesting traits of a shotgun is that buckshot is > > subject to the ballistics matching techniques used on rifle and pistol bullet > > The plastic wads (which prevent the shot from touching the barrel) do not tak > > the microscopically detailed impressions from the barrel that copper or lead > > bullets do. The heat from firing always melts the plastic slightly--enough to > > defeat this. Of course, if you leave the fired shells lying around, the prim > > and ejector marks can bite you... > > Is there truth to the rumor that poking a file inside the barrel will > alter the marks on future test firings? > > --- > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps > From jimbell at pacifier.com Sun Aug 4 12:12:20 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 03:12:20 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608041735.KAA21449@mail.pacifier.com> At 08:37 AM 8/4/96 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM asked: > >> Is there truth to the rumor that poking a file inside the barrel >> will alter the marks on future test firings? >I have heard, but have not evidence for, is that with use, these >characteristic markings change. As a result, putting 200-300 >rounds through a gun at the range is enough to alter its >identifiable barrel markings sufficiently to defeat forensic >matching. Don't know, just heard, but it sounds reasonable. Heard same thing here; it's almost certainly true. It would help if the gun got a thorough cleaning as well: You can "de-copper" a barrel by plugging one end, and filling the barrel with an ammonia solution. (this is available as a commercial product for guns, at wildly-inflated prices. Ordinary ammonia solution works just as well, cheap.) This dissolves the copper left from the passage of copper/brass-jacketed bullets. You can tell it's working: The copper forms the distinctive blue cupramine ion in solution. BTW, all this changes is the microstructure of the markings: The number of riflings and the twist of the riflings are, obviously, unchanged. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at toad.com Sun Aug 4 12:52:21 1996 From: David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at toad.com (David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at toad.com) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 03:52:21 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608041807.LAA11271@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com, sandfort at crl.com Date: Sun Aug 04 13:07:42 1996 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > C'punks, > > On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM asked: > > > Is there truth to the rumor that poking a file inside the barrel > > will alter the marks on future test firings? > > I don't know the answer to this one, but my best guess is, > A) yes, but not enough to alter the test firing, and > B) whether or not it did, it would be strong evidence of an > attempt to screw up such a test. There are few (no?) legitimate > reasons to harm one's gun thusly. > > I have heard, but have not evidence for, is that with use, these > characteristic markings change. As a result, putting 200-300 > rounds through a gun at the range is enough to alter its > identifiable barrel markings sufficiently to defeat forensic > matching. Don't know, just heard, but it sounds reasonable. > > Considering the relative strengths/hardnesses of the metals involved (high-grade steel for barrel, lead and/or copper for projectile), I'd suspect that it would take more than 200-300 rounds to have any significant impact on the barrel rifling. This, of course, is for 'normal' weapons and ammo; using diamond projectiles in a saturday night special voids all warranties, express or implied :-) my ha'penny's worth. Dave Merriman PS - Been using Pronto Secure beta software the last couple of days for email. It's not Eudora, but *very* convenient for signing/encrypting. A couple of bugs/gotchas, but nothing I'd expect to see in for-sale version. I'm actually mildly impressed with how smoothly and transparently it works with PGP on a DOS/Win95 system. PGP Email welcome and encouraged. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgQwKsVrTvyYOzAZAQGacAP+L8CfV6aFmuAsJYTM5ttHqWu6B49vL2cx Ejnxwp2bRcM7winGALg+LQwwqjx1eNd1gKLsjrIRdh4oQgCBobfdEMU2poJvceTD shfPhvZqDWQQgZf0B1OkqzporGprdKM6V/rEbguzDMGt1SaUX585dZaYq5/CtyOO b+NFH+WSemc= =VWgA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Sun Aug 4 12:58:44 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 03:58:44 +0800 Subject: Internet telephony (was Freeh slimes again) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960804173946.003173d8@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 13:11 02/08/96 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >The sound quality really isn't there, unless you have a fast machine or a >fat pipe. In addition, the vast majority of Intel based computers lack the >crucial (for user acceptance) full-duplex soundcard. Add to that the >physical impossibility of getting decent real time services over a >non-isochronous network, such as the Internet, I'net phones just don't >provide suffcient speech quality for business/serious personal use even >without the added overhead of crypto. What I'd like to see -- for which technology is all in place, and none of the shortcomings you mention apply -- is voice mail that functions seamlessly between people who only have a phone, and those with Internet connections on computers with a sound card. Many companies practically use voice mail as an alternative to long phone conversations. This might also help the Internet spread, because with a connection you would be able to save on long-distance charges -- and strong crypto could be used. I'm sure the software for this exists too -- the ISPs only have to run it on their servers. It would be nice, though, if the ISPs had a facility that when there is a voice message for you, it either phones or pages you... Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From sebago at earthlink.net Sun Aug 4 13:42:54 1996 From: sebago at earthlink.net (Allen Robinson) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 04:42:54 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608041900.MAA04859@serbia.it.earthlink.net> Rather than resorting to such extreme measures as attacking the interior of the existing barrel with a file or nitric acid, simply replace the barrel with a new one (normally not prohibitively expensive), then put a few hundred rounds through the new barrel at the range so that it appears used when/if examined. Naturally this does not address the possibility of unique marks made on the primer by the firing pin, on the cartridge by the ejector, etc. AR #%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#% "In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free." - Edward Gibbon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Allen Robinson.........................sebago at earthlink.net PGP public key FE4A0A75 fingerprint 170FBC1F7609B76F 967F1CC8FCA7A41F From hfinney at shell.portal.com Sun Aug 4 14:29:56 1996 From: hfinney at shell.portal.com (Hal) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 05:29:56 +0800 Subject: TrustBucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608041939.MAA03317@jobe.shell.portal.com> An interesting idea. It reminds me of a barter system, with the similar problem of trying to put together a complex trade which is mutually acceptable. I wonder whether it could be automated if people posted their holdings and what they would accept. Then software could go into this database and try to put together a set of trades that will let someone make a purchase. However it would seem to be very harmful to privacy to have to post all this information. There are some "lightweight payment" schemes out there which have the property that people only accept cash that is "for them". Sometimes there is a broker involved who actually issues the cash on behalf of the merchant (the merchant trusts the broker to do this) so that customers need only go to a smaller number of brokers. Then these systems can be based on heavier payment systems like digicash or credit cards which people use to open accounts with the brokers. I do like the decentralization idea, but these lightweight schemes have some of the same advantages. Hal From rsaeuro at sourcery.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 4 14:31:16 1996 From: rsaeuro at sourcery.demon.co.uk (RSAEURO General) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 05:31:16 +0800 Subject: ANNOUNCE:- RSAEURO Version 1.03 Message-ID: <3204fbd0.27628667@post.demon.co.uk> ANNOUNCE:- RSAEURO Version 1.03 =============================== What is RSAEURO? ---------------- RSAEURO is a cryptographic toolkit providing various functions for the use of digital signatures, data encryption and supporting areas (PEM encoding, random number generation etc). To aid compatibility with existing software, RSAEURO is call-compatible with RSADSI's "RSAREF(tm)" toolkit. RSAEURO allows non-US residents to make use of much of the cryptographic software previously only (legally) available in the US. RSAEURO contains support for the following: * RSA encryption, decryption and key generation. Compatible with 'RSA Laboratories' Public-Key Cryptography Standard (PKCS) #1. * Generation and verification of message digests using MD2, MD4, MD5 and SHS (SHS currently not implemented in higher-level functions to maintain compatibility with PKCS). * DES encryption and decryption using CBC (1, 2 or 3 keys using Encrypt-Decrypt-Encrypt) and DESX(tm), RSADSI's secure DES enhancement. * Diffie-Hellman key agreement as defined in PKCS #3. * PEM support support for RFC 1421 encoded ASCII data with all main functions. * Key routines implemented in assembler for speed (80386 and 680x0 currently supported). International Use ----------------- IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please do not distribute or use this software in the US it is 'illegal' to use this toolkit in the US, as RSADSI and Cylink hold patents relating to public-key cryptography. If you are a US resident, please use the RSAREF toolkit instead. On The Web ---------- RSAEURO can now be found at http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/rsaann.html Ftp Sites --------- RSAEURO can be found at ftp://ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/misc Author Details -------------- With comments and suggestions, please address them to Stephen Kapp, at 'rsaeuro at sourcery.demon.co.uk' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RSAEURO: rsaeuro at sourcery.demon.co.uk RSAEURO Bugs: rsaeuro-bugs at sourcery.demon.co.uk Tel: +44 (0) 468 286034 Http: http://www.sourcery.demon.co.uk/rsaann.html RSAEURO - Copyright (c) J.S.A.Kapp 1994-1996. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 4 15:32:18 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:32:18 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers Message-ID: <199608042050.NAA12512@toad.com> >At 3:21 PM 8/3/96, David Lesher wrote: >>They are going to hang one of these on EVERY bag? >>At what per-unit cost? Probably low enough, at least if they can reuse the tags (should be easy to find them, since they're transponder-equipped.) My guess about how they'll be used is to replace the bar-code stickers used by many baggage-handling systems - they'll stick one on at checkin, corresponding to the number on your ticket, track them when they load them on the plane (so they know that all the bags correspond to people expected to get on the plane, as well as knowing the bags are getting on the correct plane), and track the tickets to make sure that all the people expected to get on the plane actually do get on (I think they use bar-code readers or OCR today, and that'll probably continue.) Tim> "bag escrow" will allow other agencies--such as DEA--to sniff Also useful for the baggage checkers at the baggage claim, who'll be able to check that your baggage tag belongs to your ticket, and that nobody sneaks baggage out unchecked, either stealing it or trying to pick up the contraband. Of course they'll _have_ to check all the bags to collect the transponders. David>>THEN think of the RFI problems..... Tim> The RFI problems are actually the least of the concerns, Tim> given the "code space" technology which is possible. The RFI issue isn't just telling one transponder from another, it's interference with the airplane's electronics. The devices will be a bit quieter than your laptop, since they presumably only broadcast in response to polls - probably quieter than pagers but noisier than digital watches. Bill # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 4 15:34:49 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:34:49 +0800 Subject: Digital Telephony costs $2 Message-ID: <199608042050.NAA12518@toad.com> At 05:09 PM 8/3/96 -0800, Jim Bell talked about mixing telephony, voice compression, and modem functions on future modems, and how doing a 28.8 modem uses up most of a DSP chip, while 2400bps voice coding and decoding also each use up about half, making full duplex tough. One advantage of higher-speed modems is that you can get away with 16kbps ADPCM coding, which is dirt-simple computationally; your 386 probably has enough horsepower to do it, though a PC's interrupt structure may make it tough to shove all the data in and out in real time. You still need a sound card that'll do the A/D and D/A conversion simultaneously if you want full-duplex; that wasn't part of the original market vision of Soundblaster, so vanilla sound cards don't all do it. It also has the advantage that the data is being moved through your CPU, so encryption is an easy add-on, rather than having one combined modem/voiceblaster card which doesn't have any hooks for crypto or other processing. >Sure, it may not be necessary to compress voice audio all the way down to >2400 bps, since the current modem standards allow 28.8kbps and beyond, but I >suggest that decreasing net traffic by a factor of 12 (28.8k to 2.4k) is a >desirable goal. One problem is that tighter compression methods are far more sensitive to network latency than crude ones, and need to process more milliseconds of speech before putting out a packet on the net (e.g. a 64-byte tinygram is 200ms of speech at 2400bps, vs. 32ms at 16kbps.) For modem-to-modem communications, this is no problem; for Internet random delays it is. Also, another big difficulty with full-duplex transmission is that you need echo-cancelling, especially with high-latency circuits. Half-duplex is annoying, but it doesn't echo, and it's more tolerant of delay because you're not expecting it to have natural timing... >The reason I think a system I've described has a future is that modem >manufacturers have a PROBLEM. Their problem is that they've pretty much run >out of room to improve the bit-pushing through a 3 KHz bandwidth. Given that the "3KHz" is almost universally transmitted over 64kbps digital channels, there's really no point in pushing past 33.6 with analog-based coding; better to just do ISDN. (You can still do analog-only calls if you're on an analog central office talking to someone else at the same exchange, but it'd be a flat-rate local call anyway. If there's anybody still using analog trunks between offices, it's some mom&pop rural telco, and you can't get 28.8 on barbed-wire...) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 4 15:36:29 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:36:29 +0800 Subject: More to be paranoid about... Message-ID: <199608042050.NAA12505@toad.com> At 10:14 PM 8/3/96 -0700, you wrote: >Take a look at: > http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates >Feed it an Oregon licence plate number and it will feed you back all sorts >of info about the person/victim. It's interesting to know that Senator Hatfield's wife's birthday is 1/17/29, and that the title to the car is held with a security interest by the US SENATE EMPLOYEES FEDERAL CREDIT, and that (at least) Social Security Numbers weren't listed for the plates I checked. Also that, unlike many states, the Governor doesn't have License Plate #1. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From alanh at widomaker.com Sun Aug 4 15:36:53 1996 From: alanh at widomaker.com (Alan Horowitz) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:36:53 +0800 Subject: New Agers feeding at the porkbarrel trough Message-ID: Looking at page 98 of the August-September _Home Power_ magazine, I see the publisher, Richard Perez, saying about vendors of non-solar-generated electricity: "None of this money is billed via your electric meter, but instead concealed in taxes or paid out everywhere from supermarkets to hospitals." On page 76 of the same edition, in an article titled "The New Utility", we see the following statement: "If all goes well in November, voters in Davis, California will vote on implementing the first US rate based incentive (RBI) program. As discussed in previous issues of _Home Power_, RBI programs are are locally adopted programs in which communities assess utility bills a 1% surcharge. The surcharge is used to purchase PV [viz., photovoltaic solar-generated] power from participating homeowners at a premium rate. The incentive plus the benefits of net metering [a plan in which electric utilities are required to pay home-based electricity vendors, the full cost of a kilowatt-hour of power, notwithstanding that the homeowner didn't pay for the distribution losses, plant costs of the transmission grid, untimed-to-load-demand supply, etc] should allow recovery of 90% of system investment in 10 years." Now, call me politically incorrect, but I say that utility bills don't get assessed surcharges - *people* get assessed *taxes*. I say that if it's good for the non-solar vendors to be denounced for wanting to offload some of their costs onto taxpayers, then the sauce is good for the solarpower gander, too. I say that Richard Perez makes his living by encouraging the distribution of solarpower hardware and services. I say that Richard Perez has a circle of friends and business associates who are in that industry. I say that Richard Perez has a conflict of interest. I say that Richard Perez is a hypocrite. I will renew my subscription to the magazine.... the non-political articles are high quality and unmatched elsewhere. I will continue to purchase selected items from _Home Power_'s advertisers - they fill my needs. I will agitate strongly against the "establishment" of solarpower (and its lesser analogues, such as microhydro, windturbine, biomass) in the pantheon of pork barrel empires. From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Sun Aug 4 15:41:36 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:41:36 +0800 Subject: The Hazards of Reading Naughty Newsgroups at Work In-Reply-To: <199608031945.MAA22460@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 1996 anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: > The following interesting article appeared on page 6 of the > August 3, 1996 Seattle Times. [...] > Rosul is also charged with possession of child pornography. He > allegedly used Microsoft equipment to manufacture a CD-ROM disk > containing child pornography. > > Both Seaman and Rosul will be arraigned next week in King County > Superior Court. If convicted, both could receive up to one year in > jail. "Where do you want to go today?" > Microsoft spokesman Mark Murray said the company found out about the > activities of its two former employees last year and alerted police. > > "We provided the police with the computers to pull up the evidence," > Murray said. I couldn't help thinking of the poor technical schmucks whose job it was to spy on their co-workers. -rich From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 4 15:48:46 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:48:46 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" [NOISE] Message-ID: <199608042050.NAA12499@toad.com> Arun and Marin have been quoting from UN docs and the >International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights(ICCPR), >http://www.pluggedin.org/amnesty/rights4.htm > which the US *ratified* not so long ago. >2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; >this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart >information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, >either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or >through any other media of his choice. >3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 >of this article carries with it special duties and >responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain >restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law >and are necessary: >(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others; >(b) For the protection of national security or of >public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ Lots of UN declarations of rights have this sort of exception; "protection of public morals" is something so blatantly vague and broad that if a government contends that such a concept exists, as the covenant does, it could probably force the World Court to conclude that it permits them to declare as "necessary" just about anything short of burning witches and heretics, and humanely beheading heretics, drug dealers, and anonymous remailer operators is probably ok by this standard. The UN Declaration (or was it Convention) on the Rights of the Child is even worse - it strongly states the right to believe in and practice religion, except when the government needs to interfere to protect public morals or public order... On the other hand, it provides no such exception for the right to mandatory public education or identity registration. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 4 16:28:17 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 07:28:17 +0800 Subject: Anonymous Message Broadcast Message-ID: <199608042120.OAA12926@toad.com> At 12:58 PM 8/3/96 -0400, Laszlo Vecsey wrote: >Has anyone implemented a simple anonymous chat system (an anonymous irc) >using the technique described in Applied Cryptography 2nd edition? I'm >speaking of the Anonymous Message Broadcast documented in section 6.3, it >begins on page 137. A lot of people talk about Dining Cryptographers networks, but I'm not aware of more than an occasional test implementation - the concept is simple, but getting all the details right is a lot of work, including things like collision detection, and there aren't a lot of good uses for the things to motivate development, even though they are basically cool. One design approach is to use IRC; another is email. IRC probably requires that all the participants be on simultaneously, or requires a coordination system to handle whoever's on right now. >Can the same system be implemented using base256 (unsigned char, 8bit ASCII) >instead of the simple on/off binary method that is described in the >explanation? How would it differ. Rather than doing Base256, just XOR the bytes; you get the speed of doing things a byte or word at a time, while still getting bitwise changes. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From gcg at pb.net Sun Aug 4 17:05:56 1996 From: gcg at pb.net (Geoffrey C. Grabow) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 08:05:56 +0800 Subject: WARNING: SecureDrive & PartitionMagic Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960804220146.0068d1b8@mail.pb.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 15:47 08/04/96 -0400, Charley Sparks wrote: > > >where can I get a copy of SD and does it work with NT ?? > Check out: http://www.serve.com/ruccia/securedr.html for the SD. As for working on NT... I haven't the foggiest. I've got a kludgey way of using it under win95, but it mostly works. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgUdrsr4ljoOgY7BAQGTpQP+IZXlrMJh3snU27ydLDcdzCOeDC813GYW ujHcDpHiItY7Uq4hgBW6qoHIhmrb8DRHgVJDWyfa/OAmwJzs6sAOEzQCP1ktPM7b LLn1oPphtoPCXN1RXB+s38jHZmzzY32sLidmAqgpMDRboUwDvKfczHs9Tik1PzgQ X3k3S43k0pc= =+lgv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- G.C.G. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Geoffrey C. Grabow | Great people talk about ideas. | | Oyster Bay, New York | Average people talk about things. | | gcg at pb.net | Small people talk about people. | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | PGP 2.6.2 public key available at http://www.pb.net/~wizard | | and on a plethora of key servers around the world. | | Fingerprint = A6 7B 67 D7 E9 96 37 7D E7 16 BD 5E F4 5A B2 E4 | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | That which does not kill us, makes us stranger. - Trevor Goodchild | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 4 17:52:41 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 08:52:41 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <199608042250.PAA13719@toad.com> At 10:02 AM 8/1/96 -0700, tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) wrote: >Question (a la "Wired"): "When will the United States introduce an internal >passport?" >May: "2005, but they won't call it that." Stewart: "Last week, but they didn't call it that." According to Alaska Airlines, the FAA's policy as of last week has switched to a mandatory policy that if you don't produce government-issued photo-id, you can't get on the plane; the previous policy had been more flexible. The folks stamped my ticket "Documents Verified" - looks suspiciously similar to "Papers In Order". (Which they actually weren't, on my return trip; I handed her my work ID in the same plastic carrier as my train pass, and handed her the credit card I'd bought the tickets with explaining that I wasn't on government business and asking when had the policy changed and commenting. And the nice Rent-A-Xray-Technician who asked if I minded if he searched my computer bag was totally confused when I said "Yes, of course I mind.") You can still travel in a car if someone else is driving, and you can still get on a train without identification, but without papers you can't fly or drive, and you can't ride a horse on the freeway except in the back of a horse trailer. Driver's licenses were the beginning of a long downhill trend. I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From hallam at ai.mit.edu Sun Aug 4 19:13:18 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 10:13:18 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <4u3255$si2@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <32053E44.2781@ai.mit.edu> Oh dear oh dear.... First off people on cypherpunks seem to have the idea that the type of people who go blasting peoples heads off have brains. Without wanting to inflate people's egos too much the average reader of cypherpunks is an awful lot smarter than your average criminal. Fancy plans to disolve gun barrels etc are way too complex for your average criminal and in any case it is substantially easier to drop a gun in a lake or the sea and less likely to result in incrimination than to try disolving it, run 200 rounds through it or whatever. Vacuming up powder left over from a rifle range would not help very much. One of the problems of building a bomb is to make sure that all the explosive goes off. A gas chromatograph is able to differentiate spent and unspent explosive. It would be easier to go off and buy the stuff from multiple sources or to make ones own explosive from nitrates with oxidants. I would expect that anyone vacuming up the residue from a gun club is likely to have difficulty explaining what he is doing. After all one does not usually go off to play Rambo, then stick an apron on and start doing the housework. I personally think that tagants is an insuffieicent approach to the problem. Given the number of gun related homicides in the US it is not unreasonable to require each individual cartridge to be stamped with a serial number and for gun dealers to be required to record each individual purchase. That at least was my advice to the UK govt after Dunblane. If people go arround claiming that ownership of guns is necessary so that people can commit acts of treason against the US govt then it is inevitable that there will be pressure for greater regulation. The NRA has been playing a bad hand stupidly. By raising the militia argument they have played into the hands of abolitionists. It would be entirely foolish for the crypto lobby to allow themselves to be tied to the NRA. The NRA has no choice but to support civil liberties, there is no reason why the wider civil liberties movement needs to support the NRA. More significant for crypto policy is the recent revelations about US spying on the European Union by spoofing CISCO routers via SNMP. That act should be exploited to drive a wedge between US attempts to bar use of cryptographic security systems and the members of the EU. Phill From rvincent at cnmnet.com Sun Aug 4 19:36:11 1996 From: rvincent at cnmnet.com (RICHARD VINCENT) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 10:36:11 +0800 Subject: CDT Policy Post 2.25 - Senate Encrypti Message-ID: <199608050021.TAA14904@future.cnmnet.com> -- [ From: RICHARD VINCENT * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Monday, 24-Jun-96 01:57 AM From: Shabbir J. Safdar \ Internet: (shabbir at vtw.org) To: cypherpunks at toad.com \ Internet: (cypherpunks at toad.com) Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 2.25 - Senate Encrypti Damn, we've been found out. I don't suppose anyone will notice the fact that although I've helped with the preparation for the SAFE day, I won't actually be attending the event. Clearly, I don't want to get caught. -Shabbir J. Safdar * Online Representative * Voters Telecomm. Watch (VTW) http://www.vtw.org/ * Defending Your Rights In Cyberspace PS On a more serious note, I can't get testimony into the record for this hearing if you don't send it to me. Sooo...please either fill out the form at http://www.crypto.com/submit/ or if you find that format too constraining , just send it to me in email. I'll see what I can do to make sure PGP signatures are reproduced intact in the Congressional Record. Most everyone I know cannot simply jaunt off to D.C. for a day. Why not at least make your voice heard? anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com writes: >WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THIS VIOLATION OF OUR RIGHTS? EVER HERE THAT >IN THE US VOTES ARE supposed to be *****SECRET*****??? NO MORE! > >Why does the vtw cdt etc want to hand over your name to the us gov? Notice >how there's two events one on the east cost and the other on the west coast From drose at AZStarNet.com Sun Aug 4 19:46:37 1996 From: drose at AZStarNet.com (David M. Rose) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 10:46:37 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <199608050034.RAA15919@web.azstarnet.com> Bill Stewart wrote: >I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country >has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking.... I don't know if this was an isolated incident, but I recently attempted to pick up a package at the Post Office using my passport as I.D. NO, I was told, this is not acceptable identification, and as a union worker, you can't tell me what to do. Appeals to chicken-hearted management were brushed off; I finally identified the highest ranking union official (shop steward?), who reluctantly ordered the recalcitrant worker to fetch my parcel. Your guess is as good as mine... Dave Rose From unicorn at schloss.li Sun Aug 4 20:06:47 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:06:47 +0800 Subject: Pipe bombs vs high explosives. In-Reply-To: <199608040337.UAA17682@dns1.noc.best.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > Does anyone have any experimental information comparing an > untamped high explosive with a pipe bomb? > Homemade low explosives tend to be even more feeble > than manufactured low explosives, because it is inadvisable > for amateurs to recorn their powder, with the result that > home made powders burn slow, whereas homemade high > explosives are just as effective as manufactured high > explosives. > > My theoretical expectation is that pipe bombs would be > very ineffectual when compared to high explosives, > especially using home made powders. Flash powders are quite easy to make and deflagrate quickly enough to cause quite a nice bang without any containment what so ever when set off in amounts over about two tablespoons worth. Start off with fine enough mesh Al powder and grind your oxidizer down fine enough and all you need for proper mixing is a (static treated) zip-lock bag. Not that I would ever suggest that anyone try to manufacture such mixtures, but they are plenty potent enough to match and exceed most manufactured deflagrating powders. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From drose at AZStarNet.com Sun Aug 4 20:40:22 1996 From: drose at AZStarNet.com (David M. Rose) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:40:22 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608050134.SAA05951@web.azstarnet.com> Phil H-B writes: >Oh dear oh dear.... (Mucho B.S. elided) Dear Doc: Trollmeister supreme Sternlight has left the building. Hint...hint... From shamrock at netcom.com Sun Aug 4 20:50:33 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:50:33 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: At 15:48 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote: >I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country >has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking.... A US passport is not considered valid ID by the State of Oregon. If somebody here doesn't belive this, send someone who looks like he might be under 21 into any liquor store in Oregon with just an US passport. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From liberty at gate.net Sun Aug 4 21:01:30 1996 From: liberty at gate.net (Jim Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 12:01:30 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill...[Noise] Message-ID: <199608050151.VAA72932@osceola.gate.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Phill Hallam-Baker wrote: >Oh dear oh dear.... ... >I personally think that tagants is an insuffieicent approach to >the problem. Given the number of gun related homicides in the >US it is not unreasonable to require each individual cartridge >to be stamped with a serial number and for gun dealers to be >required to record each individual purchase. That at least >was my advice to the UK govt after Dunblane. So _THAT'S_ how they could have prevented the atrocity. ;> Weakening caused by the stress of stamping, the immensity of the number of cartidges fired every day in the U.S., and the fact that revolvers *exist* aside, we have these strange people called "reloaders" in this country, Phill, and right now they have LOTS of unstamped brass on hand. Criminals who wanted it would have an unlimited supply into the foreseeable future. I agree with you that criminals are, on the whole, dumber than cypherpunks, but it is easy for them to pick up ideas like shooting a few hundred rounds or filing a barrel etc. whether or not they are as likely as we are to have them first. They already use all-fabric bleach to get any blood/DNA out of clothing used in crimes, and even if they ARE stupid, they sit around jail cells an awful lot talking about how to get away with their crimes next time. JMR Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy "Big business never pays a nickel in taxes, according to Ralph Nader, who represents a big consumer organization that never pays a nickel in taxes." -- Dave Barry Defeat the Duopoly! Vote "NOTA," not Slick/Dull in November. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray Coming soon, the "Pennies For Perot" page. Keep billionaires off welfare! ___________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh. iQCVAwUBMgVRim1lp8bpvW01AQFwxAP7B4AugPSgmbnhFE3J7d8un1CMzYTznJkq 4Pf8zjH9iOo3pn+LoY7QgOFjUZo5tcuGRfyiEWJozfoeykhQ7Ds3tpiAUtfx2smN 1O9LGHuzv6WDOKuqK4bKAS20S0W2lWRgcDDBc8PEcXdSgekCDCgBFKRPr+IKY/jP j2TIIVt0aLE= =dOud -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From shamrock at netcom.com Sun Aug 4 21:10:11 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 12:10:11 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: At 20:20 8/4/96, Hallam-Baker wrote: >If people go arround claiming that ownership of guns is necessary >so that people can commit acts of treason against the US govt >then it is inevitable that there will be pressure for greater >regulation. The NRA has been playing a bad hand stupidly. By >raising the militia argument they have played into the hands >of abolitionists. Appeasement never works. See the following two quotes. "1935 will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." - Adolf Hitler * > What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not <* * > warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit <* * > of resistance? Let them take arms!" - Thomas Jefferson, 1787 <* NRA Life Member and proud of it, -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From alano at teleport.com Sun Aug 4 21:23:14 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 12:23:14 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960805022246.00d7c568@mail.teleport.com> At 07:01 PM 8/4/96 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >At 15:48 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote: > >>I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country >>has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking.... > >A US passport is not considered valid ID by the State of Oregon. If >somebody here doesn't belive this, send someone who looks like he might be >under 21 into any liquor store in Oregon with just an US passport. This is because Oregon has been taken over by The Pod People. (Or at least, the Oregon Liqueur Control Commission has.) Getting such foolishness reversed is difficult when you have as many control freaks in the State Legislature (and elsewhere). --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 4 23:15:07 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 14:15:07 +0800 Subject: A Libertine Question Message-ID: <199608050420.VAA16738@toad.com> At 08:18 PM 7/31/96 -0400, DCF wrote: >Since there are no "public places" in a free society, If it _were_ a free society, there would be places that nobody had conquered yet, common and usable by anyone (as opposed to today's "public" spaces that had been conquered by a government which claims the right to exclude others, and places owned by individuals or groups which the government has said are none-the-less public.) There would probably also be places that were owned by people who had somehow acquired the right to kick other people out; you can argue about whether a free society should treat land this way. (Most land ownership in the US derives from land grants given by kings who were put in place by watery tarts handing out swords or equally authoritative processes, or from land that the Yankees stole from the Mexicans and then re-stole from the Indians and granted to the railroads.) In a human-created environment like cyberspace the existence of ownable spaces is obviously true, unlike found spaces like land. There are also found spaces in cyberspace where there's no particular rightness to assigning ownership, and places that even if you decide ownership through first use is a good thing, people can decide to leave unowned or shared. IP address space and domain name space are good examples - property ownership is a useful analogy, preventing conflicts by multiple people who want the name foo.com, but once you've suggested naming things *.com, it's fair game. On the other hand, since the Internet is a cooperative shared fiction, if you want people to be able to find and connect to you, getting the popular nameservers and routers to point the name joesgarage.microsoft.com and IP address 127.0.0.2 in your direction may not be highly productive. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From harmon at tenet.edu Sun Aug 4 23:20:46 1996 From: harmon at tenet.edu (Dan Harmon) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 14:20:46 +0800 Subject: problem In-Reply-To: <3203D296.2E30@multipro.com> Message-ID: First go read the original documents that were sent to you. A novel idea. On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Fallen Angel wrote: > I unsubscribed from your mailing list so why am I still receiving > email from it. I No longer wish to receive any more mail, so please stop > it. > > Fallen Angel > fallenangel at multipro.com > From take at barrier-free.co.jp Sun Aug 4 23:27:09 1996 From: take at barrier-free.co.jp (Hayashi_Tsuyoshi) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 14:27:09 +0800 Subject: key escrow article on the Asahi Shinbun Message-ID: <199608050420.NAA28069@ns.barrier-free.co.jp> I found key escrow article on the Asahi Shinbun. Asahi Shinbun is one of the most famous Japanese newspaper. I can't write more info because I am busy now. BTW, Asahi Shinbun has their own server: URL: http://www.asahi.com/. # English version is also available. - Tsuyoshi Hayashi - PGP public key: http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/take/pgpkey - (CF 27 34 5B 46 FA 2A 12 D2 4C E3 F7 2A 45 E0 22) - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996) From alanh at infi.net Sun Aug 4 23:39:26 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 14:39:26 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <32053E44.2781@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Hallam-Baker wrote: > in any case it is substantially easier > to drop a gun in a lake or the sea and less likely to result in > incrimination than to try disolving it, run 200 rounds through > it or whatever. Police divers pull murder weapons out of the water all the time. It's very, very common. Phil, is there ANY freedom that you would fight for? From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 5 00:28:04 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:28:04 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes: > At 15:48 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote: > > >I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country > >has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking.... > > A US passport is not considered valid ID by the State of Oregon. If > somebody here doesn't belive this, send someone who looks like he might be > under 21 into any liquor store in Oregon with just an US passport. This reminds me how many years ago (I think this was under Reagan, or maybe even Carter) I went to U.S.V.I without any papers at all, not realizing that it's "abroad". When the time came for me to get back, I was shocked to see some security people checking the papers of the people getting on the plane to N.Y. I explained the situation and they let me in with no papers. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From lharrison at csbh.mhv.net Mon Aug 5 01:19:32 1996 From: lharrison at csbh.mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:19:32 +0800 Subject: More to be paranoid about... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960805061137.2aef92e0@pop.mhv.net> At 10:14 PM 8/3/96 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote: >Take a look at: > > http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates > >Feed it an Oregon licence plate number and it will feed you back all sorts >of info about the person/victim. Not surprising at all. Unbeknownst to most of the general populace, DMV records (for the most part) are public records and are subject to Freedom of Information requests. AAMOF, I have an account with NYS/DMV which I use to pull my clients' records when they are charged with DWI and/or other traffic offenses. I simply dial into DMV's [outdated] computer and pull the record. It also came in handy on a personal level when I did not get my registration card after buying my car and discovered that the dealer had not registered my car. ************************************************************ Lynne L. Harrison, Esq. | "The key to life: Poughkeepsie, New York | - Get up; lharrison at mhv.net | - Survive; http://www.dueprocess.com | - Go to bed." ************************************************************ DISCLAIMER: I am not your attorney; you are not my client. Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice. From cts at deltanet.com Mon Aug 5 01:46:04 1996 From: cts at deltanet.com (Kevin Stephenson) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:46:04 +0800 Subject: 119_816 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960718235050.006c0f38@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: <320595D0.7D52@deltanet.com> Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: > > At 11:29 AM 7/17/96 GMT, you wrote: > > 6-17-96. NYP: > > > > "11 Officers Are Accused of Failure to pay Taxes. Claims of > > Sovereignty and 98 Dependents." > > > > At least 11 New York City police officers have been > > accused of failing to pay any Federal taxes for several > > years by declaring they each had 98 dependents and by > > insisting that the Government had no right to tax them. > > The officers relied on a package of instructions that > > described how to avoid paying taxes by declaring that > > they were sovereign citizens who did not have to pay > > taxes. > > Anyone know which "package of instructions" they were using, > and where they can be obtained online? > //cerridwyn// I've heard of this before. Check altavista for soveriegn(sp?) citizens of the united states. A lot of complicated rambling about birth certificates, duress and the federal government. From rp at rpini.com Mon Aug 5 02:13:59 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 17:13:59 +0800 Subject: crypto CD source Message-ID: <9608050710.AA29333@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 05 09:07:49 1996 Addendum: If I have more than 1000 buyers, the price drops to around 9 USD per CDROM. >Estimated prices (USD) - If I have at least 300 "certain" buyers: >CDROM with 2-color label and jewel-case: USD 13.- >Shipment US: USD 3.- (swiss mail sucks!) >Shipment Europe: USD 2.- >Since the origin of those CD's is Switzerland, no ITAR would apply. - --------< fate favors the prepared mind >-------- Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/remopini/rpcrypto.html - ------< words are what reality is made of >------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMgWdxhFhy5sz+bTpAQEsmQf9GwGi2Mz3e6/HlTA0Ry5FpI14uPxk7qzS id7GJ50dL88q8M0JcLEOEWu3SZuhvgInV7aG3YzhjyaOs8tmCW1WKilUzgDXyIMQ mnvlqfWilquKRQN2LW+5DjBaECeuDTHSYH/EJofsU7v6ivLBCe39yM51h+5SFG0c mZRQebJFBge6udvhFfdtoDWMP7D1pZE+6ZtOCFeeZUmntNQtGH7KLD/rijfiuFWN uwl1d2779QDhu4FtEOm363f9HO4r2fU7K5B7g0dSeBF2uhZCgcJd7TzhwkmSupxO rT0VyJtYy6YcTs9YFbvxNABQ6RtRvKVbSxzLGAdPkAKXFDFodjTw6w== =2Z4p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From problem at webchat.wbs.net Mon Aug 5 02:14:49 1996 From: problem at webchat.wbs.net (WebChat Broadcasting System) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 17:14:49 +0800 Subject: Validation Code for WBS Access Message-ID: <9608050701.AA02391@webchat.wbs.net> Thank you for joining the WebChat Broadcast System! We eagerly await seeing you online. Your handle is: e3f0f5eeeb Your password is: toad Your validation# is: 90582293 (you only need to use this once) To get full access to the system, go to http://wbs.net and enter any room. When prompted, enter your handle, password. and validation#. Then you're done! You'll have full privileges on WBS. By validating you acknowledge having read the WBS system rules (at http://wbs.net/wbs/rules.html) and promise to abide by them. Thank you. If you have any difficulties please write us at problem at wbs.net. Thanks, and enjoy! Sincerely, The staff at WebChat Broadcasting System From Ben.Samman at EdelWeb.fr Mon Aug 5 02:44:11 1996 From: Ben.Samman at EdelWeb.fr (Ben) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 17:44:11 +0800 Subject: Who the hell is .... In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960802100835.0069d380@pop1.jmb.bah.com> Message-ID: > OK, I'v been on the list a bit now. I see a lot of the same > people posting to it, > My question is " Who the Hell is Sternlight" At first I thought > it was a pen name ( the light on the end of a boat ?? ) He claims he was some ranking official during the Carter administration. To get more information do an AltaVista search for him--I seem to remember some FAQ on this exact question. Ben. ____ Ben Samman.................................................ben at edelweb.fr Paris, France Weather has improved. Stay tuned. From rp at rpini.com Mon Aug 5 02:49:27 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 17:49:27 +0800 Subject: crypto CD source Message-ID: <9608050705.AA29297@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 05 09:03:30 1996 Well, I could. Estimated prices (USD) - If I have at least 300 "certain" buyers: CDROM with 2-color label and jewel-case: USD 13.- Shipment US: USD 3.- (swiss mail sucks!) Shipment Europe: USD 2.- Since the origin of those CD's is Switzerland, no ITAR would apply. If you're interested (at least 300 of you), mail me. Subject line: CryptoCD Anonymous guys ignored (but data handled confidentially and encrypted on my machine). If you want more than one, send more than one mail (but with a different body, so I can kill duplicated mails). Once I get more than 300 requests, I'll start putting it together and have it mastered. At that point I will request a written order (fax or so). If anyone has a better idea on how to handle the stuff, mail me... > I have about 100MB (compressed) of crypto archives, papers, source code, > etc etc, reasonably well organised with descriptions of each file. I've > got a friend to put it on CD, but only for my own use. If there's > someone who can get them done in bulk outside the US you could probably > use this as a crypto CD (I don't think there's anyone in NZ who could do > it, and I don't really want the hassle of organising the whole thing). - --------< fate favors the prepared mind >-------- Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/remopini/rpcrypto.html - ------< words are what reality is made of >------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMgWcxBFhy5sz+bTpAQE1/gf/eJI+dt1guw0joLKoBpm0ShpvK3/fHFwb SUlMJSaLgEODR9DRCC+uYc3+mRTNLrup8w1XIcQO1OAZO/GQumL97y8TtLp8fBpY FcNTYxtXY/UflHE5OySLWIz4jfNArIpZBxXb/zuUqrAqCj5NsWWHUsb45CM/j8cy 1dYT5wcoGELbJiZy1jVZV6eEmqliZIZAtD+fU+bq4oJIgDRCEDWt6RTJPhoHfx5F wxEuOkpeBQi8uJD9gL85lk5S7Exa1n/0u8+UgE1sm9UMIRA8IOzRK3lIlRvT+0VI 0r2lK4wnKdhmILkPcxGq+82bUZ7HUepS4oZGAduzhW73ANtMEzVPxw== =5+88 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From strix at rust.net Mon Aug 5 03:25:30 1996 From: strix at rust.net (Jennifer Mansfield-Jones) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 18:25:30 +0800 Subject: SOUP KITCHENS -- lifespans In-Reply-To: <199608031110.GAA12116@einstein> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sat, 3 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:12:04 -0700 > > From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) > > Subject: Re: SOUP KITCHENS (fwd) > > > > Hardly a proved correlation. A lot of other factors come into play. But > > never mind. No point arguing. > > But it is. I suggest you take a look at any social health text and look at > the comparisons between diets of our ancestors, ourselves, and various > In case Alan's post didn't make it clear, _average_ lifespan values are averages from birth. Maximum lifespans haven't changed. However, between the effects of vaccination and municipal sewage treatment, any infant born in a developed country has a good chance of living a long time. A society with very high birth rates and high infant mortality will have a low average lifespan even if every child who makes it to the age of ten lives to be a hundred. regards, `=-`=-`=-`=- -='-='-='-=' Jennifer Mansfield-Jones http://www.rust.net/~strix/strix.html strix at rust.net PGP key ------^ Never try to outstubborn a cat. (R.A.H.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgUoOUxVmNNM34OxAQG59AQAropfEClWviL0TZaLqlos5p/gP5cnQGYL uMVAgtBb5smfD3GF5xs4LBtvW5987H4oFI5AOXCUcOuKePWXhtXwMbA5g9JfbKpa v8sm9v1uG9ci9TwiArD5ePu1xBE4974IBo+23dEfq0LD/QhioO4J2QFMaKkiqoBe tu9z5eccjqY= =Ya3s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rp at rpini.com Mon Aug 5 03:28:19 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 18:28:19 +0800 Subject: crypto CD source Message-ID: <9608050810.AA04146@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 05 10:08:19 1996 I'm looking for contents for the crypto CD. Since this CD will (might) be mastered in Switzerland, no ITAR applies to the CD, but if anyone wants to include some restricted stuff, send it to me (dat, disk or encrypted email) Address: Pini Computer Trading "Crypto CD" Hofwiesenstr. 234 8057 Zuerich Switzerland My wish list: - - PGP - - A lot of algorithms in C, Pascal, ASM (for diverse processors) - - Private Idaho - - Pronto Secure - - a suite of html pages describing all files (I'll probably have to do that myself) - - Netscape (the secure versions, if its legally feasable -> Netscape?) - - Crypto papers - - Crypto analysis papers - - Lawtexts concerning crypto (ITAR, France, ...) Anything else? - --------< fate favors the prepared mind >-------- Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/remopini/rpcrypto.html - ------< words are what reality is made of >------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMgWr9BFhy5sz+bTpAQEOuQf+PAfJrxDLo4mEDsC8QelbBE5WHqNecmcq soPN0ZDSDzSEdbofALHBEiAW8SHVT4h1XWPNG1QjNvuCsluLN4HX1IQSfCjjCNzO /T9jqNqKbwDL5ssluD9nc/tbjaTN2zdXIVRE2/1QZmyrysT5MK5tiHzbbkrFjSy2 tVwUmEk9W+gTAzNBxLE5ni2Q6oLLuf+jnzw0jBn15nA3S7USN+G+dMsNG2ROR7ZI Lp1a9XvqtjZ41Ju1C0QVR6u53a7mB8unrxxALewF2TjJUXxJOA0W1QbxM8/aI6cb jjePr0NoohyCORLNh+pGaBQ+DXYY28JL5keCyGCr8k/INXHIksbEIQ== =aTqo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rp at rpini.com Mon Aug 5 04:14:10 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:14:10 +0800 Subject: Getting serious: Crypto CD Message-ID: <9608050845.AA06404@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: secure at commtouch.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 05 10:43:16 1996 Dear Sirs I want to put together a CDROM containing "everything" a cryptographically interested person needs. I would like to include your cryptographically relevant products. The CD will be organized the following way: - - the user interface consists of HTML-pages - - one of these pages will include a directory of files - - one directory entry will be your product (whatever you prefer as a name) and leads to a page/pages of your design. - - you can use a directory named after your company (but in compliance with CDROM restrictions -> 8 letters, no special chars, i.e. "mycompny" or so) and any subdirectories you want. - - binary program space is restricted to 25 MB - - html space is restricted to 1 MB Dos and Donts: - - program limitations (stuff you only get when you register/buy the full product) must be declared. - - export/usage restrictions must be declared (US/nonUS) Further info: The CD will be sold at around USD 15 (including shipment) Advertisement: Seperate advertisment (html pages and graphics) can be made for USD 50.- per page (<200K). A link on the index page will be included. Legalese: - - This CD will be mastered and shipped outside US, so whatever you send us (if you send it from outside US) will not be affected by ITAR. - - The copyright will remain in your hands, you only grant Pini Computer Trading (PCT) the permission to duplicate and distribute the content on a CDROM and, should we choose to do so, on the internet. - - The legality of your content is your responsiblity. If you are interested, mail me... Sincerely yours, Remo Pini Pini Computer Trading PS: This message may have been forwarded by anyone. If you receive it several times, ignore the redundant mails. PSS: This message may be forwarded to anyone offering a cryptographically relevant product. (-> forward ahead, cypherpunks) - --------< fate favors the prepared mind >-------- Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/remopini/rpcrypto.html - ------< words are what reality is made of >------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMgW0JRFhy5sz+bTpAQFdsQgAsxz04ridQ+urdvMVQzpBVkjonuc0ek4Q GihsyATZi2U0Fi73UleJsOz9rsnmodvcJYvkQ2Omtp7mQOFHYWBi7nihELMb06OQ YXduCr/0BQWRX+ORrJtQtehMdctzHnQcTV1AEcCR400YQlBu2YLiB7MLWsEtvqoK 15q0q3Hu7TMOVvplgSMjAT2yAevI5iKEn1AJ5q+kqjQ81fT3KTtuJh2U06TLtSQp 2PecOIk8rPq6fy+wyQN6/PssLrbKkPIKDzMwpupDUb4rEMGNJYP/wykF4BN+vBBE 8pvpD+qd5iODCZplsQ1lY95t48xqBsZ4AQHl8W5WKha5LMBuIFVmIQ== =RdAm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From master at internexus.net Mon Aug 5 05:48:44 1996 From: master at internexus.net (Laszlo Vecsey) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 20:48:44 +0800 Subject: The Dining Cryptographers in the Disco Message-ID: There is a protocol for anonymous message broadcast which supposedly detects disruption, can someone tell me how it works? Applied Cryptography lists a reference to "Advances in Cryptology, Crypto '89 Preceedings" (page 690) but I dont have a copy of it, I'd appreciate it if someone could fill me in on what it says. Thanks! - Lester From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 5 06:46:28 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 21:46:28 +0800 Subject: Who the hell is .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ben writes: > > OK, I'v been on the list a bit now. I see a lot of the same > > people posting to it, > > My question is " Who the Hell is Sternlight" At first I thought > > it was a pen name ( the light on the end of a boat ?? ) > > He claims he was some ranking official during the Carter administration. No, no, it's euphemism for a flashlight stuck up someone's rectum, where "flashlight" is in turn euphemism for "gerbil". :-) Anyway, whoever had bet that he'd keave this list by now, has won. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From declan at eff.org Mon Aug 5 07:03:36 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 22:03:36 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had the same problems when I was working at Xerox in Webster, NY. Supermarkets just plain didn't want to accept my passport as valid ID. More recently, I attended an IEEE conference at MITRE in Virginia. To enter the building, they required you to fill out a form listing your SSN. The forms were taped to the guard's desk, in full view of anyone who was curious. I was horrified and gave a random number. A friend who was with me (who in fact is on cypherpunks) dutifully gave her correct SSN. Oh, and they wanted photo ID. I offered press credentials. Unfortunately for the lackey, it didn't have any sort of serial or ID number on it he could record. -Declan On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > At 15:48 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote: > > >I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country > >has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking.... > > A US passport is not considered valid ID by the State of Oregon. If > somebody here doesn't belive this, send someone who looks like he might be > under 21 into any liquor store in Oregon with just an US passport. > > > -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. > Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. > Vote Harry Browne for President. > > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu Mon Aug 5 07:19:01 1996 From: nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 22:19:01 +0800 Subject: FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS Message-ID: <199608051211.GAA26432@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS DAVID STERNLIGHT From rah at shipwright.com Mon Aug 5 07:35:04 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 22:35:04 +0800 Subject: International Conference on Electronic Markets ! Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From: Ram Chellappa Subject: International Conference on Electronic Markets ! To: www-buyinfo at allegra.att.com Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 2:54:04 CDT Reply-To: ram at cism.bus.utexas.edu X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Message/rfc822 X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Seventh Conference on Organizational Computing, Coordination and Collaboration International Conference on Electronic Markets ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR MORE INFORMATION: http://ecworld.utexas.edu/others/flyer.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Theme : Electronic Markets Date : November 6-8, 1996 Location : IC2 Institute, 2815 San Gabriel, Austin, Texas 78705 Questions About program: contact Dr. Andrew Whinston at 512-471-8879 About registration/logistics: contact the RGK Foundation at 512-474-9298 or jhampton at zilker.net Sponsors : * IC2 Institute * Center for Information Systems Management * College and Graduate School of Business Administration at The University of Texas at Austin; * RGK Foundation * National Science Foundation Who should attend * Software developers and managers in the electronic commerce area * Executives concerned with developments in banking and finance * Executives concerned with developing on-line customer service and logistics support * Executives who make investments in next generation technology * Executives who develop internal operations support * Academics in information systems, marketing, finance, organizational behavior, and service management concerned with the emerging research topics in the electronic commerce domain. -- RAMNATH K CHELLAPPA Ph: 512-467-7813 (home) Doctoral Candidate 512-471-7962 (office) Center for Information Systems Management Department of MSIS University of Texas, Austin. Web: http://cism.bus.utexas.edu/ram email: ram at cism.bus.utexas.edu --Some people have 10 years of experience, while some have one year of experience, 10 times over !!! --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 5 08:56:06 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 23:56:06 +0800 Subject: More to be paranoid about... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960805061137.2aef92e0@pop.mhv.net> Message-ID: "Lynne L. Harrison" writes: > > Not surprising at all. Unbeknownst to most of the general populace, DMV > records (for the most part) are public records and are subject to Freedom of > Information requests. AAMOF, I have an account with NYS/DMV which I use to > pull my clients' records when they are charged with DWI and/or other traffic > offenses. I simply dial into DMV's [outdated] computer and pull the record. > It also came in handy on a personal level when I did not get my registration > card after buying my car and discovered that the dealer had not registered > my car. If I remember correctly, it costs $4 for one search (via modem), and one has to pre-pay $200 to open the account. One can do a free sarch if one's friendly with the LEO's. :-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Mon Aug 5 09:39:17 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:39:17 +0800 Subject: "And who shall guard the guardians?" [NOISE] Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960805124248.002f27d4@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 13:50 04/08/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >>restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law >>and are necessary: >>(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others; >>(b) For the protection of national security or of >>public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ > >Lots of UN declarations of rights have this sort of exception; >"protection of public morals" is something so blatantly vague >and broad that if a government contends that such a concept exists, >as the covenant does, it could probably force the World Court >to conclude that it permits them to declare as "necessary" >just about anything short of burning witches and heretics, >and humanely beheading heretics, drug dealers, and anonymous remailer >operators is probably ok by this standard. Heretics it depends, drug dealers no problem, but anonymous remailer operators haven't been beheaded yet. Their persecution will probably take much more subtle forms -- denial of government jobs or contracts (lawbreakers and anarchists, after all), whatever hurts most. There are many ways of manipulation in an advanced, information based society that are no less cruel than the torture of more overtly authoritarian ones. International covenants aren't entirely useless: governments have to report to the UN how much success they are having in implementation, and are questioned closely. If indeed the fears of many of you come true, cypherpunks will have far greater awareness of human rights instruments and their usefulness (or lack thereof) before the century is done. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Mon Aug 5 09:40:32 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:40:32 +0800 Subject: FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS In-Reply-To: <199608051211.GAA26432@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Message-ID: <3205FA65.7716@vail.tivoli.com> Anonymous wrote: > > FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS > DAVID STERNLIGHT Why can't we get trolls of this caliber more often? [ E-mail me today to sign up for your official "I'm a Shitopunk" shirt! ] ______c_____________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From master at internexus.net Mon Aug 5 10:19:28 1996 From: master at internexus.net (Laszlo Vecsey) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 01:19:28 +0800 Subject: Destroying client/server model, anonymous broadcasting. Message-ID: Getting back to the Dining Crypto Problem, is it possible to complete a round by passing information around the circle of participants (each individual communicates and maintains a connection with the person on the left and right) rather than sending the round results to everyone via a central server that everyone is connected to? In effect no one would be a server, or everyone would be a server depending on the way you look at it. A circular linked list would be maintained and kept in sync by every client so that error recovery could come into play if someone mysteriously disconnects. Could it work? How would the protocol differ. Also I need info on the Disco problem, detecting if someone is tampering. Thanks. - Lester From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Aug 5 10:25:28 1996 From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 01:25:28 +0800 Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199608051350.GAA16087@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu> I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"portal"} = " cpunk pgp hash"; $remailer{"alumni"} = " cpunk pgp hash"; $remailer{"c2"} = " eric pgp hash reord"; $remailer{"penet"} = " penet post"; $remailer{"flame"} = " cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut post reord"; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"ecafe"} = " cpunk mix"; $remailer{"amnesia"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ksub"; $remailer{'alpha'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{'nymrod'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"lead"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"treehole"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"nemesis"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"vegas"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"ncognito"} = " mix cpunk pgp hash latent"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (c2 alpha) (flame replay) (alumni portal) Use "premail -getkeys pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu" to get PGP keys for the remailers. Fingering this address works too. Note: The remailer list now includes information for the alpha nymserver. Last update: Mon 5 Aug 96 6:48:42 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- alumni hal at alumni.caltech.edu *##+-*+++### 3:25 99.99% alpha alias at alpha.c2.org *+++++++-+*+ 1:18:11 99.98% mix mixmaster at remail.obscura.com -+--+++-++- 1:28:16 99.96% treehole remailer at mockingbird.alias.net -+---++++-++ 1:35:49 99.93% lead mix at zifi.genetics.utah.edu +++ ++++++++ 38:48 99.87% haystack haystack at holy.cow.net ###++***+*## 3:13 99.85% winsock winsock at c2.org -..-------- 4:26:36 99.85% penet anon at anon.penet.fi ----------- 8:31:00 99.83% replay remailer at replay.com ********** * 5:01 99.67% nymrod nymrod at nym.jpunix.com -**-+###+** 7:24 99.56% lucifer lucifer at dhp.com ++++-+++--+ 1:12:03 99.53% c2 remail at c2.org +++++++--+- 1:36:27 99.34% portal hfinney at shell.portal.com ###+*+-*## # 2:55 99.28% ncognito ncognito at rigel.cyberpass.net --.._-_-.. * 17:16:16 98.94% nemesis remailer at meaning.com +********+ 29:19 98.24% extropia remail at miron.vip.best.com ---.---__ 26:57:48 97.25% amnesia amnesia at chardos.connix.com -- --- --- 2:58:14 96.19% jam remailer at cypherpunks.ca ********** 16:40 95.51% vegas remailer at vegas.gateway.com -*#-**#* 13:17 57.14% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From pjb at ny.ubs.com Mon Aug 5 10:29:20 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (Paul J. Bell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 01:29:20 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: <9608051411.AA07503@sherry.ny.ubs.com> "picric acid is indeed more powerful than TNT. it was the primary explosive used in WW-I. it was also the primary cargo on a ship, i think it was the "Montblac", that exploded in Halifax harbor and nearly wiped-out the city. this was in the 1917 - 1919 timeframe. -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Fri Aug 2 19:04:53 1996 > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:12:30 -0500 (CDT) > From: Sean Walberg > To: Conrad Walton > Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Bombs & bomb threats in LA > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 1357 > > I remember seeing an item on TV that had mentioned an acid bomb (it was a > news report about a public access TV show that was showing people how to > make bombs). In this example, some common chemicals were mixed together, > tightly closed, and moments later an explosion occured. They never said > the chemicals, for all I know it could have been lemon juice and baking > soda in a sealed container, a la Dry Ice bomb... It didn't look like a > bomb of mass destruction, more of a loud bang and a smallish explosion... > > Sean > > > On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Conrad Walton wrote: > > > >and everyplace else all the news.answers FAQs are stored. What, precisely, is > > >an acid bomb? Also note the standard blame-the-Internet (not, say, increased > > >irritation with government after the Republicans failed to reduce it) > > >rhetoric. > > > > i'm not exactly sure what an acid bomb is, but according to my book, The > > Anarchist Cookbook, that I bought in 1972 (was the internet around back > > then?), there is a compound called "picric acid" that is "more powerful > > than TNT, but has some disadvantages". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sean Walberg umwalber at cc.umanitoba.ca > The Web Guy http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umwalber > UNIX Group, U. of Manitoba PGP Key Available from Servers > > From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Mon Aug 5 11:17:09 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 02:17:09 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960805124321.003064b0@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 10:10 04/08/96 -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote: >At 2:06 AM -0400 8/4/96, anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: >> As long as they are doing any kind of usage-based >> charging, that actual act of charging will continue to cost >> considerably more than the data transmission. > >Ah. So, why settle the transactions for digital cash and skip all that >overhead? Yet another application for micromoney. True, though even better would be simply to charge you a flat rate. If billing is that expensive, why bother? What happened to the proposals asking for flat-rate pricing before the FCC? Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From netsurf at pixi.com Mon Aug 5 11:59:10 1996 From: netsurf at pixi.com (NetSurfer) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 02:59:10 +0800 Subject: ****Tacoma, Washington Starts Taxing Internet Access 07/30/96 In-Reply-To: <199607311533.LAA05116@mccannerick-bh.mccann.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote: > > >WASHINGTON, DC, U.S.A., 1996 JUL 30 (NB) -- By Bill Pietrucha. > >Tacoma, Washington, has just gained the distinction of being the > >only municipality in the United States to tax Internet Access > >providers (IAPs) like telephone service providers. > > Hawaii has been taxing this (and everything else incl. collected taxes, food & medical) for years :-( calling it a "general excise tax" #include _ __ __ _____ ____ / | / /__ / /_/ ___/__ _______/ __/__ _____ / |/ / _ \/ __/\__ \/ / / / ___/ /_/ _ \/ ___/ / /| / __/ /_ ___/ / /_/ / / / __/ __/ / ================/_/=|_/\___/\__//____/\__,_/_/==/_/==\___/_/=============== From honey at citi.umich.edu Mon Aug 5 11:59:34 1996 From: honey at citi.umich.edu (peter honeyman) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 02:59:34 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) Message-ID: <199608051349.GAA22092@toad.com> Declan McCullagh writes: > This is attempted proof by credentalism. I call him on it. > > Okay, Jim, what _do_ your lawyers say on this? Have you asked them? I, > too, have an attorney, a civil liberties specialist and a graduate from > Princeton law. So what? declan, you are a fucking liar, and i am calling you on it. princeton does not have a law school. peter From janke at unixg.ubc.ca Mon Aug 5 12:02:31 1996 From: janke at unixg.ubc.ca (janke at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 03:02:31 +0800 Subject: The Dining Cryptographers in the Disco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The paper you want is at http://www.zurich.ibm.ch/Technology/Security/sirene/publ/WaPf1_89DiscoEngl.ps.gz From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 5 12:08:25 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 03:08:25 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... Message-ID: <199608051546.IAA09508@mail.pacifier.com> At 08:52 AM 8/2/96 -0700, Brock N. Meeks wrote: > >On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Ernest Hua wrote: > >> Louis Freeh is now asking the Congress for $2 billion to fund >> Digital Telephony. Yes, that is FOUR TIMES what he said it >> would cost the taxpayers to give up their own privacy. Score >> one for the cynics who said $500 million was not enough. > >I broke the story about how much Digital Telephony would *really* cost in >CyberWire Dispatch more than two years ago. The price tag in my piece: >"... at least $2 billion..." In that Dispatch I wrote that the Clinton >White House had made the decision to support the bill based on a flawed >cost/benefit analysis study the FBI had done. Which should remind us... While the costs are going up, so far undetermined is the "benefits" that are supposed to accrue from this bugging ability. How many crimes, approximately, are going to be solved or prevented by the expenditure of this $2 billion dollars? One hundred? A thousand? Even if it were 10,000, that would still be $200,000 per crime. Is there no cheaper way to prevent those crimes? And, moreover, do we REALLY want to prevent those "crimes"? If they are attacks on an illegitimate government that is violating our rights, as far as I can see we want to see those "crimes" succeed, not fail. Let's put their feet to the fire: They should be required to show a reasonable estimate of the benefits as well as an apparently phony initial estimate of the costs. If they respond that they can't estimate the benefits, then why do they want us to incur the costs. However, the real answer is even simpler. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From camcc at abraxis.com Mon Aug 5 12:15:49 1996 From: camcc at abraxis.com (camcc at abraxis.com) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 03:15:49 +0800 Subject: Again, disappointed in Gingrich Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960805154557.0073b034@smtp1.abraxis.com> At 03:17 PM 8/1/96 EDT, you wrote: : Again, I'm disappointed in Gingrich. This amplifies the earlier :comments. : -Allen I have never been disappointed in Gingrich; he has always been what he seems--just another politician, albeit a front for the "religious" right. Why expect anything different? Alec (from Ga.) From camcc at abraxis.com Mon Aug 5 12:16:50 1996 From: camcc at abraxis.com (camcc at abraxis.com) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 03:16:50 +0800 Subject: Tolerance Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960805154837.006b4d98@smtp1.abraxis.com> At 02:46 PM 8/1/96 -0800, you wrote: :Just a comment to all of the 'true libertarians' out there, especially :the "defend to the death" types: How many of you defended Mr. :Sternlight's recent membership? : Beautiful. Alec From minow at apple.com Mon Aug 5 13:02:05 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 04:02:05 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960805124321.003064b0@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: Arun Mehta writes: > >True, though even better would be simply to charge you a flat >rate. If billing is that expensive, why bother? > Tragedy of the Commons. Flat rate works only if no single user can use more than a tiny fraction of the total bandwidth. Martin Minow minow at apple.com From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 5 13:08:34 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 04:08:34 +0800 Subject: The Halifax Explosion Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960805165110.006766dc@panix.com> At 10:11 AM 8/5/96 EDT, Paul J. Bell wrote: >"picric acid is indeed more powerful than TNT. it was the primary explosive >used in WW-I. it was also the primary cargo on a ship, i think it was the >"Montblac", that exploded in Halifax harbor and nearly wiped-out the city. this >was in the 1917 - 1919 timeframe. > > -paul > The Mont Blanc carried quite a lot of fun stuff. "Stored in the holds, or simply stacked on deck, were 35 tons of benzol, 300 rounds of ammunition, 10 tons of gun cotton, 2,300 tons of picric acid (used in explosives), and 400,000 pounds of TNT." Thursday December 6, 1917. The greatest conventional explosion produced by mankind. See: http://ttg.sba.dal.ca/nstour/halifax/explode.htm Governments shouldn't be trusted with high explosives. They can't be counted upon to handle them properly. >From 1889-1989 the governments of the world murdered 160 million people. >From 1889-1989 the private individuals of the world murdered fewer than 20 million people. See Death by Government by R. J. Rummel http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1560001453/1372-7724803-532789 DCF From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Aug 5 13:12:03 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 04:12:03 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I had the same problems when I was working at Xerox in Webster, NY. > Supermarkets just plain didn't want to accept my passport as valid ID. > > More recently, I attended an IEEE conference at MITRE in Virginia. To > enter the building, they required you to fill out a form listing your > SSN. The forms were taped to the guard's desk, in full view of anyone who > was curious. > > I was horrified and gave a random number. You should always be horrified, and always give a random number. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Mon Aug 5 13:24:01 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 04:24:01 +0800 Subject: gathering bandwidth through spam Message-ID: <320629E6.247A@vail.tivoli.com> Maybe I'm dense, but it didn't really "click" until the other day that the Netscape mail reader, which renders html pages mailed as attachments right there in the mail reader window, would also run any Java applets (and, I guess, Javascript code) referenced by the page. If you're using Netscape as a mail reader, and this isn't old news to you, you can try it: point the browser at a page with an applet, and then use the "File->Mail Document" menu command to mail it to yourself. Thus: if you want to gather some free compute cycles, just spam a document out to a few thousand hapless victims. Those using Netscape for mail (and you can find them pretty easily by looking at the "X-Mailer" field when creating your mailing list) will click on your message, pull your applet, and give you some cycles without realizing it. Of course, your applet will be free to connect back to home base and relay any results it gets. Cool, huh? ______c_____________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 5 13:27:36 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 04:27:36 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: <199608051717.KAA14678@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:11 AM 8/5/96 EDT, Paul J. Bell wrote: >"picric acid is indeed more powerful than TNT. it was the primary explosive >used in WW-I. it was also the primary cargo on a ship, i think it was the >"Montblac", that exploded in Halifax harbor and nearly wiped-out the city. this >was in the 1917 - 1919 timeframe. > > -paul The molecular difference between TNT and picric acid is a methyl group, weight 15 (on TNT) substituted for a hydroxyl, weight 17 (on picric acid.) If there is a difference, it is a very small one. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Aug 5 13:29:25 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 04:29:25 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <199608042250.PAA13719@toad.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Bill Stewart wrote: [...] > You can still travel in a car if someone else is driving, > and you can still get on a train without identification, > but without papers you can't fly or drive, and you can't > ride a horse on the freeway except in the back of a horse trailer. > Driver's licenses were the beginning of a long downhill trend. > > I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country > has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking.... I often have trouble with foreign passports and one of my associates often has extensive problems trying to use an american passport for anything in the United States. Comments uttered in my presence on the subject have included: "We don't accept THOSE." "Sorry, we need to see OFFICIAL identification." "Don't you have something state issued?" "Uh, we need a driver's license number." > # Thanks; Bill > # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com > # Defuse Authority! > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From rah at shipwright.com Mon Aug 5 13:48:02 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 04:48:02 +0800 Subject: Email Confidentiality and Malpractice? Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: oldbear at pop.tiac.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 12:48:12 -0300 To: Bob Hettinga From: The Old Bear Subject: Email Confidentiality and Malpractice? Bob: I always feel funny passing along items like this from usenet. This was posted to nine of the alt.business newsgroups dealing with law and insurance investigation. It seemed reasonably interesting, contains some useful information, and is not overly offensive for a self-promotional spam. (And, at least it was posted in appropriate places.) If you see any merit in all or part of this being reposted to dcsb or elsewhere, feel free to do so. Cheers, Will --- Forwarded message follows --- Newsgroups:alt.business.insurance From: syr at netroplis.net (Bill Fason) Subject: Email and confidentiality: Are you committing malpractice? Organization: Serves You Right Civil Process & Investigations Date: Sat, 03 Aug 96 17:57:54 GMT Lines: 74 If you're discussing cases through email and you're not encrypting your correspondence, then you could be committing malpractice. See: http://www.gsu.edu/%7Elawppw/lawand.papers/bjones.html Client Confidentiality: A Lawyer's Duties with Regard to Internet E-Mail by Robert L. Jones August 16, 1995 Contents: 1. E-Mail v. Snail Mail 2. Hacker, Cracker, Phracker - Sniffer, Spoofer, Spy 3. Encryption to the Rescue? 4. Bad Things That Happen to Good Lawyers 5. Ethical Considerations 6. The Attorney-Client Privilege 7. Negligence Anyone? 8. Conclusion 9. Endnotes Bob's homepage is http://www.mindspring.com/~bobjones/my1sthom.html And here is the website for Georgia State Univ. Law School. It has one of the best collections of cyberlaw resources I've seen. GSULaw is at the cutting edge of the field. http://www.gsu.edu/~lawadmn/gsulaw.html While Bob's brilliant article specifically addresses attorney-client confidentiality, his insights apply to any professional using email. In fact, anyone who uses email for internet or intranet communications faces the same fact of life: unencrypted email carries no expectation of privacy. It's like dropping a postcard through the mail. In fact, it's even worse. Important discussions of cases, clients, patients, bids, negotiations, strategies or anything requiring confidentiality needs to be securely encrypted. Sending unencrypted sensitive email invites nightmare scenarios. Viacrypt is the answer. It combines the essentially unbreakable strength of Phil Zimmerman's PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) with the user-friendly interface of Windows. Easy to install and use, Viacrypt allows the user to quickly encrypt and decrypt email. It also allows the user to sign messages, and to check the signature of other electronic messages. Viacrypt also allows the user to encrypt files on one's own hard drive. A user of PGP can leave the office knowing that sensitive files will remain confidential regardless of who is on the evening cleanup crew. Regular PGP for DOS is free. If you want to find out more about where and how to get your free copy, then visit the Encryption Policy Resource Page: http://www.crypto.com/ And if you need help getting it up and running, feel free to contact me. Viacrypt, on the other hand, costs money. I offer it for $125 plus shipping. I suggest that you get your copy fast while it is still legally available. Both FBI Director Louis Freeh and Vice President Al Gore have both spoken out against allowing US citizens to use encryption this strong. They want everyone to register their private encryption software keys with the federal government, thus allowing the feds to read anyone's email. It is reminiscent of the old communist governments' laws requiring citizens to register their typewriters with the police. Widespread use of PGP will hamper government efforts to ban it. PGP is so strong that the federal government has declared it a weapon and banned its export. Bill Fason Serves You Right Civil Process & Investigations * Skiptraces 1436 W. Gray #272 * Background Checks Houston TX 77019 * Asset Searches 713/524-4767 * PGP Encryption Consulting 713/942-8165 fax * Financial Fraud Detection SLN A-8111 --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 5 13:51:05 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 04:51:05 +0800 Subject: The Myth of Flat Rates and Infinite Bandwidth Message-ID: At 4:40 PM 8/5/96, Martin Minow wrote: >Arun Mehta writes: > >> >>True, though even better would be simply to charge you a flat >>rate. If billing is that expensive, why bother? >> > >Tragedy of the Commons. > >Flat rate works only if no single user can use more than >a tiny fraction of the total bandwidth. > This was also the fallacy of the "dark fiber" vision of George Gilder, who, as an economist of sorts, should've known better. --Tim may Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jims at MPGN.COM Mon Aug 5 14:26:39 1996 From: jims at MPGN.COM (James C. Sewell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 05:26:39 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960805173421.0075df00@tansoft.com> At 11:22 PM 8/3/96 -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote: > What you >publish as a use policy, and what you actively enforce do not have to be >the same. > Unfortunately this is a problem in many companies. There are policies which are enforced to the letter, guidelines which are just suggestions, and fake-rules which are not even attempted to be enforced. The problem comes when the employee and employer can't distinguish them from each other. Personally I think I would approach it as the privacy we have with the eontents of our car's trunk. If an officer has probable cause to search the trunk then he can, otherwise he can't. It's not a perfect system but it does work better than other alternatives I can think of. Write into your policy: "Electronic mail may be monitored if there is sufficient reason to believe that it is being improperly used which includes, but is not limited to: mail to competitors, more than 20 recipients (spam), and incoming mail from questionable sources. If such monitored mail is encrypted the employee must provide a clear text version of the mail which is to be unencrypted under supervision to avoid substitutions. Any employee refusing to make available such mail will be ...." Just remember, as was said, once you make a policy it becomes precedence and will stick with you forever... longer if it's a bad one. Best Wishes Jim Jim Sewell - jims at tansoft.com Tantalus Incorporated - Key West, FL From hua at chromatic.com Mon Aug 5 14:32:50 1996 From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 05:32:50 +0800 Subject: Confirmation Needed: American(s) hack into Euro systems ... Message-ID: <199608051717.KAA21733@server1.chromatic.com> Anyone knows the details behind this? Ern ------- Forwarded Message CDA96-L Digest 48 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Who's infringing whose privacy? by MichaelP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic No. 1 Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 01:31:45 -0700 (PDT) From: MichaelP Subject: Who's infringing whose privacy? Message-ID: London Sunday Times August 4 1996 American spies hack into Euro computers to steal trade secrets AMERICAN intelligence agents have hacked into the computers of the European parliament and European commission as part of an international espionage campaign aimed at stealing economic and political secrets, according to investigators. The European parliament has called in British communications experts to improve its security and to block further attempts by American govern ment agents to spy on its workings. Security officials at the parliament's Luxembourg offices say they have discovered several recent instances in which its communications system was compromised by American hacking. They have also found evidence that the Americans used information obtained from hacking to help them in negotiations last year on the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT). Lord Plumb, leader of the British Tory MEPs in the European parliament, said he was shocked by the disclosure. "I will be taking this up directly with the American ambassador [to the European Union]," he said. The CIA has already been accused by the Japanese and French governments of hacking into their communications networks in an attempt to obtain confidential trade secrets. The European parliament's computer network links more than 5,000 MEPs, officials, researchers and other staff to each other, and to the European commission headquarters in Brussels and the council of ministers. Traffic across the network by telephone and computers includes details of the private medical and financial records of many MEPs and officials, and discussion documents on confidential issues, including trade, tariff and quota agreements. The records of closed committees of inquiry into BSE and fraud are also stored on the system. European parliament sources say the Americans accessed the network by compromising the information exchanges that link the parliament's internal networks with the Internet and external users. The devices, called "routers", filter entry to the European parliament's network. It is understood the Americans were able to obtain access to what is called the simple network management protocol (SNMP), the language that enables the networks to talk to each other. They were able to exploit the fact that parts of the system were manufactured by two American firms. The breach came to light when officials believed that American negotiators had been given advance warning of confidential European Union positions in last year's trade negotiations. "It was established that the system had been penetrated just days before the talks," an EU source said. "Our principal concern is not to establish what has already been copied but to ensure that it does not happen again. This is an on-going problem." A spokeswoman for Antonio Cavaco, director of data processing at the commission, confirmed that allegations of hacking had been investigated. However, she said she was unable to provide any details. - ------------------------------ End of CDA96-L Digest 48 ************************ From ichudov at galaxy.galstar.com Mon Aug 5 14:46:10 1996 From: ichudov at galaxy.galstar.com (Igor Chudov) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 05:46:10 +0800 Subject: Integrating PGP 3.0 Library with INN Message-ID: <199608051829.NAA19030@galaxy.galstar.com> Hi, Has anyone thought of integrating PGP 3.0 library with INN? I was thinking along the lines of having PGPMoose support built right into INN: if an arriving article is posted to a moderated newsgroup for which a PGP key is available in the INN's keyring, INN verifies existence and correctness of a PGP signature. An article that fails this verification will be dropped. Same thing can be used for authenticating newgroup and rmgroup messages, in the spirit of true freedom on usenet -- anyone would be sent _their own_ newgroups and rmgroups but no one will be impersonated. For those not familar with PGP Moose, it is a program that was written by Greg Rose. It is used for signing approvals on usenet articles. It takes message body, several important header fields, signs them with PGP and places the signatures in the headers, in order not to clobber the text. If moderators choose short enough keys (512 bits for example), this verification will not take any significant amount of CPU time. igor From rvincent at cnmnet.com Mon Aug 5 14:58:31 1996 From: rvincent at cnmnet.com (Zero Cool) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 05:58:31 +0800 Subject: FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS In-Reply-To: <199608051211.GAA26432@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Message-ID: <3205B283.183B@cnmnet.com> Anonymous wrote: > > FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS > DAVID STERNLIGHTSuch language, ??????????????? From remailer at cypherpunks.ca Mon Aug 5 14:59:02 1996 From: remailer at cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 05:59:02 +0800 Subject: Implementing DSS Fortezza KEA Message-ID: <199608051812.LAA32671@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Adam Shostack wrote: > There ws a paper presented at the rump session of Crypto '95 > entitled the k1 Key Exchange Algorithim. The origin of the algorithim > is not clear, however, if you're getting bitstreams from a Fortezza, > you might want to find a copy of the paper. The web says the paper was presented by one Carl Ellison. How about it Carl, is it online somewhere?? From rvincent at cnmnet.com Mon Aug 5 15:05:35 1996 From: rvincent at cnmnet.com (Zero Cool) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 06:05:35 +0800 Subject: viruss' Message-ID: <3205B2F7.7E74@cnmnet.com> Does anyone know where thre is good virus page???? I know that there is one out there, but dont have the add. Zero Cool From hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu Mon Aug 5 15:24:53 1996 From: hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu (hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 06:24:53 +0800 Subject: Public report of the EU crack. Message-ID: <9608051858.AA08707@Etna.ai.mit.edu> >From the Sunday times:- http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stifgnnws01015.html?youra-c AMERICAN intelligence agents have hacked into the computers of the European parliament and European commission as part of an international espionage campaign aimed at stealing economic and political secrets, according to investigators, write Tim Kelsey and David Leppard. The European parliament has called in British communications experts to improve its security and to block further attempts by American govern ment agents to spy on its workings. Security officials at the parliament's Luxembourg offices say they have discovered several recent instances in which its communications system was compromised by American hacking. They have also found evidence that the Americans used information obtained from hacking to help them in negotiations last year on the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (Gatt). Lord Plumb, leader of the British Tory MEPs in the European parliament, said he was shocked by the disclosure. "I will be taking this up directly with the American ambassador [to the European Union]," he said. The CIA has already been accused by the Japanese and French governments of hacking into their communications networks in an attempt to obtain confidential trade secrets. The European parliament's computer network links more than 5,000 MEPs, officials, researchers and other staff to each other, and to the European commission headquarters in Brussels and the council of ministers. Traffic across the network by telephone and computers includes details of the private medical and financial records of many MEPs and officials, and discussion documents on confidential issues, including trade, tariff and quota agreements. The records of closed committees of inquiry into BSE and fraud are also stored on the system. European parliament sources say the Americans accessed the network by compromising the information exchanges that link the parliament's internal networks with the Internet and external users. The devices, called "routers", filter entry to the European parliament's network. It is understood the Americans were able to obtain access to what is called the simple network management protocol (SNMP), the language that enables the networks to talk to each other. They were able to exploit the fact that parts of the system were manufactured by two American firms. The breach came to light when officials believed that American negotiators had been given advance warning of confidential European Union positions in last year's trade negotiations. "It was established that the system had been penetrated just days before the talks," an EU source said. "Our principal concern is not to establish what has already been copied but to ensure that it does not happen again. This is an on-going problem." A spokeswoman for Antonio Cavaco, director of data processing at the commission, confirmed that allegations of hacking had been investigated. However, she said she was unable to provide any details. [end] I consider the political dimension of this affair to be more significant that the technical. This brings the US and the French into the same category of anti-crypto government with a habit of poking its nose into other people business and getting caught. Phill From sandfort at crl.com Mon Aug 5 16:19:59 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:19:59 +0800 Subject: A SPANIARD IN THE WORKS? (non-crypto) Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, Is there anyone on the list who lives in Spain? If so, please reply by private e-mail. Thanks, S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From adam at homeport.org Mon Aug 5 16:22:42 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:22:42 +0800 Subject: Integrating PGP 3.0 Library with INN In-Reply-To: <199608051829.NAA19030@galaxy.galstar.com> Message-ID: <199608052017.PAA09340@homeport.org> Igor Chudov wrote: | Has anyone thought of integrating PGP 3.0 library with INN? | | I was thinking along the lines of having PGPMoose support built | right into INN: if an arriving article is posted to a moderated | newsgroup for which a PGP key is available in the INN's keyring, | INN verifies existence and correctness of a PGP signature. | If moderators choose short enough keys (512 bits for example), this | verification will not take any significant amount of CPU time. Its my experience that at full feed sites, there isn't enough cpu to do this. A p-90 can get ovewhelmed pretty easily trying to keep up with the load. Trying to look into the body of an article means at least a few hundred more ops per article. You could do this on a leaf node. However, you cut the reliability of the system by adding things to go wrong. Better to have a scanner that checks specific moderated groups after INN has deposited the articles. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From aeisenb at duke.poly.edu Mon Aug 5 16:25:06 1996 From: aeisenb at duke.poly.edu (Anne Eisenberg) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:25:06 +0800 Subject: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer? Message-ID: Does anyone know what the equivalent technology is on Microsoft to Netscape's cookie technology? Does Microsoft have support for cookies or not? All of the discussion on the list to do with cookies is related to Netscape. Does this mean that if one switches to Microsoft Explorer one can avoid the problem? Many thanks. Anne Eisenberg aeisenb at duke.poly.edu From Frank_Schroth at zd.com Mon Aug 5 16:39:58 1996 From: Frank_Schroth at zd.com (Frank Schroth) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:39:58 +0800 Subject: Personal View @2.0 Released Message-ID: <9608052256.AA4175@mail.zd.com> Dear ZD Net Member: We're pleased to announce that the all-new ZD Net Personal View, the Web's premier source for personalized computing news, is now available at no charge, exclusively to registered members of ZD Net. With computing news and information -- now from over 650 respected sources -- ZD Net's Personal View allows you to create your own computing information service on the Web, tailored to track only the information that matters most to you. Save time searching and surfing. Use Personal View to get a wide spectrum of coverage on the computing information you need to stay ahead. And remember, it's all available in one place, it's updated 24 hours day and it's FREE for our registered users! We'd like to invite all of our ZD Net members to put the new Personal View to work for you. Click on the Personal View link on ZD Net's home page or go direct to www.pview.com to check out our brand-new look and, more importantly, all of our new features: -- More news from a wider range of sources (over 650!), -- Expanded search capabilities (including 2 months of archived information) -- More flexibility in creating your personal Profile -- Plus links to the very latest ZD Net news and features related to your unique interests. If you've already come to rely on Personal View, we know you'll be impressed with the improvements we've made. And if you haven't had the chance to visit Personal View, now is the perfect time. Just point your browser to www.pview.com, take a minute to set up your Custom profile and you'll have you're own personal information service on the WWW. Thank you for your continued use of ZD Net! We look forward to serving your computing information needs for a long time to come. Sincerely, ZD Net Personal View Team From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Mon Aug 5 16:49:18 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:49:18 +0800 Subject: Stealth cookies Message-ID: <32065A8C.39FA@vail.tivoli.com> There's been a thread here about some outfit that, by being referenced from web documents here and there, would insert its cookie in your browser even though you've never directly visited that site. I've nuked any & all messages about that; if anybody recalls any details, I'd be thankful for the information. ______c_____________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From dfloyd at IO.COM Mon Aug 5 16:58:49 1996 From: dfloyd at IO.COM (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:58:49 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960805173421.0075df00@tansoft.com> Message-ID: <199608052008.PAA19323@pentagon.io.com> > > At 11:22 PM 8/3/96 -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote: > > > What you > >publish as a use policy, and what you actively enforce do not have to be > >the same. > > > > Unfortunately this is a problem in many companies. There are policies > which are enforced to the letter, guidelines which are just suggestions, > and fake-rules which are not even attempted to be enforced. > > The problem comes when the employee and employer can't distinguish > them from each other. > > Personally I think I would approach it as the privacy we have with the > eontents of our car's trunk. If an officer has probable cause to search > the trunk then he can, otherwise he can't. It's not a perfect system but > it does work better than other alternatives I can think of. > > Write into your policy: > "Electronic mail may be monitored if there is sufficient reason to > believe that it is being improperly used which includes, but is not > limited to: mail to competitors, more than 20 recipients (spam), and > incoming mail from questionable sources. If such monitored mail is > encrypted the employee must provide a clear text version of the mail > which is to be unencrypted under supervision to avoid substitutions. > Any employee refusing to make available such mail will be ...." Personally, a policy may save or cause lots of money in losses. My recommendation: Have an attorney look your policy over, or have him/her write it for you. It may cost some money, but may possibly save your company. From alano at teleport.com Mon Aug 5 16:59:00 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:59:00 +0800 Subject: ****Tacoma, Washington Starts Taxing Internet Access 07/30/96 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960805181729.00e8c4a0@mail.teleport.com> At 05:42 AM 8/5/96 -1000, NetSurfer wrote: > >On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote: > >> >> >WASHINGTON, DC, U.S.A., 1996 JUL 30 (NB) -- By Bill Pietrucha. >> >Tacoma, Washington, has just gained the distinction of being the >> >only municipality in the United States to tax Internet Access >> >providers (IAPs) like telephone service providers. >> > > >Hawaii has been taxing this (and everything else incl. collected >taxes, food & medical) for years :-( calling it a "general excise tax" I believe the reason the Tacoma ordinance is getting so much flack is that they are wanting to charge sales tax on all transactions that take place from ISPs in Tacoma. This type of taxation is not new. Various jurisdictions have tried to use the same thing on mail order houses. Having worked for a service bureau that dealt with mail order, I know what a hassle it is to try to keep track of such taxation. There is a company that will sell you the data of all of the sales tax rates throughout the country. This includes every little podunk city, county, and fire district tax. They are divided by zip code, but that is no guarantees that you have the right place. The reality is that trying to "be legal" under such regulations is next to impossible, even with the proper data. I know of few mail order firms that are willing to go to that extreme. (Unless, of course, they have gotten the proper threats from some miffed tax baron.) And they wonder why there is so much disrespect for the law... --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From jwz at netscape.com Mon Aug 5 16:59:08 1996 From: jwz at netscape.com (Jamie Zawinski) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:59:08 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <320652BC.31DF@netscape.com> Black Unicorn wrote: > [ ...random losers asking for your SSN... ] > > I was horrified and gave a random number. > > You should always be horrified, and always give a random number. Well, it would be nice if it was that easy. You (legally) need to give the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS, right? Such as your employer. But it's not always clear who else needs it. Is it needed to allow someone to do a credit check on you? Is it needed to get a driver's license? (The fine print on the DMV forms says "yes".) Is it necessary to make use of employer-sponsored medical insurance? (I suspect that the answer to this one is "no", except for the fact that when my employer set up my medical insurance they let the insurance company use my SSN as my insurance-related-ID-number. But in any event, my dentist told me, "if you don't give it to us, they won't pay.") I don't like the idea of having a universal ID number, but neither do I like the idea of having to go to extreme lengths to make the "right thing" happen for something where my effort will have only moral impact, not material. If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way? (Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid telemarketing scum...) -- Jamie Zawinski jwz at netscape.com http://www.netscape.com/people/jwz/ ``A signature isn't a return address, it is the ASCII equivalent of a black velvet clown painting; it's a rectangle of carets surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who.'' -- Chris Maeda From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 5 17:01:03 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:01:03 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960805194823.0087b730@panix.com> On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Bill Stewart wrote: >> You can still travel in a car if someone else is driving, >> and you can still get on a train without identification, >> but without papers you can't fly or drive, and you can't >> ride a horse on the freeway except in the back of a horse trailer. >> Driver's licenses were the beginning of a long downhill trend. Don't forget the bus. Of course you can still drive a car without a DL. Just don't get stopped. Additionally, driving without a license is a pretty minor offense. Stick with cheap cars so confiscation isn't a problem. Most also forget that the Driver's License can be issued by any nation on earth. Some countries have easier standards for license issuance. Strange facts about cars and drivers in the US: 1) It is legal for an unlicensed driver to own or drive an unregistered car as long as he stays off the public streets and roads (what for expansion of the definition of public streets and roads). 2) It is legal for a licensed driver to drive a car owned by some other person or legal entity. Ownership and control can be two different things. 3) A car can be registered in other states or in other countries and still be driven anywhere in the US. 4) A licensed driver is one with a license from any jurisdiction on earth (try to stick to ones most cops have heard of). 5) A US court cannot suspend a foreign license (but they can bust you for other stuff if you get caught in the same local jurisdiction twice.) >> I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country >> has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking.... > At 12:52 PM 8/5/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote: >I often have trouble with foreign passports and one of my associates often >has extensive problems trying to use an american passport for anything in >the United States. > >Comments uttered in my presence on the subject have included: > >"We don't accept THOSE." > >"Sorry, we need to see OFFICIAL identification." > >"Don't you have something state issued?" > >"Uh, we need a driver's license number." At least the Passport doesn't have your address or much useful information on it. And if you've done things properly, it's not connected to your SS number. Should work for flight ID at the airport these days, however. DCF From maverick at ns.interconnect.net Mon Aug 5 17:03:18 1996 From: maverick at ns.interconnect.net (Sean Sutherland) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:03:18 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <19960805204130906.AAB148@maverick> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hallam-Baker Wrote -- > Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 20:20:20 -0400 > I personally think that tagants is an insuffieicent approach to > the problem. Given the number of gun related homicides in the > US it is not unreasonable to require each individual cartridge > to be stamped with a serial number and for gun dealers to be > required to record each individual purchase. That at least > was my advice to the UK govt after Dunblane. There's four major problems with this. First off, a large number of guns used in homicides are revolvers or derringers (anyone got the numbers?). These guns don't spit out the shells. So, it would be utterly useless to do so. The second problem is the number of shells expelled in the US every day. I doubt there's enough room on the butt end of a shell to print that number (it couldn't be printed on the sides, as this would screw up the fit of the shell, and possibly weaken it). And, it'd be almost impossible getting gun manufacturers to pay for the equiptment that it would take to emprint serial numbers. The third number is that cartridges are recycled. Aside from reloading your own, there's a large number of people that sweep up brass from gun ranges to reload themselves. The idea that someone swept up the brass could get almost anyone off. The final problem is the paperwork. Cops today can barly keep up with the paperwork involved with the Brady Bill. Could you imagine if they had to keep track of AMMO purchases? > If people go arround claiming that ownership of guns is necessary > so that people can commit acts of treason against the US govt > then it is inevitable that there will be pressure for greater The provision to give people the means to commit treason against the government are in the Constitution. That's why the second amendment is there -- to empower the people to protect themselves against the government. Then there's the first amendment, which is there partially so that the people can keep the government in check with speech and the press. > regulation. The NRA has been playing a bad hand stupidly. By > raising the militia argument they have played into the hands > of abolitionists. It would be entirely foolish for the crypto The NRA, I'm sorry to say, has screwed up royally. It's about time that they regroup, or else they fall. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgUWzVZoKRrkPmSJAQGNPQf/TMJdVIPG+znJdWK3DlxmANXyLpz7qs8Z ESHxWo5unmVuDMSGhLGNT15GabdlMozgmatM11iFXmtpzXSBDMwUQOGS29ScgF6l PW3PBJ0AMscr16GFJu7EcaJStXXAKPCb3mIQmd/JEs51uwpPVgz65fMyRhq3LALF 2fSnNybWGpX60QefZfvtxd6ePx5FyO05v5BJD916N9rh5sRcyspO9Bn5gdvqZaEF MjcYiDuV1qMl1oO7FAF41HDpw1x8hVp1BsUyN812aBl2YbYYxTaQwjE+BaEmExM7 wLgwUBLZ809fqBWeXpGw8CBmy4FmM7KwiI4fxGxdbcgnFBvRavTrdQ== =SY5x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Sean Sutherland | mailto:maverick at interconnect.net PGP Key ID - e43e6489 | http://www2.interconnect.net/maverick -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS/C d- s+:+ a--- C+++ V--- P L E- W++ N++ K w o O-(++) M-- V PS+ PE++ Y PGP++ t--- 5+++ X++ R b++ DI+ D+ G e- h! !r y -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Mon Aug 5 17:03:34 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:03:34 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been using by british passport as photo-id for years, and I haven't had any major problems- you can get your checks printed with your passport number on them instead of a drivers licence, which will makes things much easier. Simon --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From drose at AZStarNet.com Mon Aug 5 17:07:58 1996 From: drose at AZStarNet.com (David M. Rose) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:07:58 +0800 Subject: Public report of the EU crack. Message-ID: <199608052120.OAA06066@web.azstarnet.com> Hallam-Baker wrote: >I consider the political dimension of this affair to >be more significant that the technical. This brings the >US and the French into the same category of anti-crypto >government with a habit of poking its nose into other >people business and getting caught. > > Phill Say what? John Young I can understand; this blather? Att: "Doc" Baker/Mr. Hyde, err, Hallam: any rudimentary text on diction/grammer/syntax might be helpful to you. Sheesh! At least Sternlight seemed to be acquainted with the English language. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 5 17:08:25 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:08:25 +0800 Subject: Destroying client/server model, anonymous broadcasting. Message-ID: <199608052126.OAA28317@toad.com> At 08:42 AM 8/5/96 -0400, you wrote: >Getting back to the Dining Crypto Problem, is it possible to complete a >round by passing information around the circle of participants (each >individual communicates and maintains a connection with the person on the >left and right) rather than sending the round results to everyone via a >central server that everyone is connected to? In effect no one would be a >server, or everyone would be a server depending on the way you look at it. >A circular linked list would be maintained and kept in sync by every >client so that error recovery could come into play if someone mysteriously >disconnects. Could it work? How would the protocol differ. There's an obvious simple way to do this which appears to be slightly wrong. Somebody (assume it's Alice) announces a round "This is round N, size S bytes, value vvvv....", everybody who receives it does their calculations, XORs them in with the data, and passes it on. Once it gets all the way around (and Alice xors in her real number xor the nonce she started with), it goes around again so everybody can see the message. The catch is that two players can collude to monitor the player between them. Since Eve knows what data she passed (Dr.) Fred, and their random numbers, and Gorby knows what Fred passed him, and their random numbers, they can tell whether Fred added any data of his own. With a server-based system, on the other hand, collusion that Eve and Gorby also find out Fred's output, either by eavesdropping or colluding with the server. (Hmmm - I suppose this also happens with Chaum's NSA dinner? The example essentially used broadcast to exchange all the users' contributions.) Also, to set up a DCnet, you almost need a server of some sort to coordinate who talks to whom. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu Mon Aug 5 17:18:25 1996 From: hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu (hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:18:25 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <19960805204130906.AAA148@maverick> Message-ID: <9608052116.AA09050@Etna.ai.mit.edu> > First off, a large number of >guns used in homicides are revolvers or derringers (anyone got the >numbers?). These guns don't spit out the shells. So, it would be >utterly useless to do so. The shells are removed sometime or other. Nothing is a 100% solution but anything that gives the criminal an extra thing to worry about improves the chances that a mistake is made. Many people go to jail because of fingerprints on shell cases. >The second problem is the number of shells >expelled in the US every day. I doubt there's enough room on the >butt end of a shell to print that number (it couldn't be printed on >the sides, as this would screw up the fit of the shell, and possibly >weaken it). I doubt that more than 32 bits of info will be required. Thats not that difficult to imprint. >And, it'd be almost impossible getting gun manufacturers to >pay for the equiptment that it would take to emprint serial numbers. Not a problem, that type of machinery is a standard type of industrial machine. Might be expensive to adapt the lines but I doubt it. >The third number is that cartridges >are recycled. Aside from reloading your own, there's a large number >of people that sweep up brass from gun ranges to reload themselves. >The idea that someone swept up the brass could get almost anyone off. Not an issue. A person may have an excuse that explains why the blood is in his car or his fingerprints are on the knife but a conviction depends on more than one piece of evidence. If there is information that gives the police a lead it is usefull. At present the police are investigating the purchase of white powder - checking each purchaser out who fits the Olympic bomber profile. That is a lot of work for a much weaker lead. If a person says that they fired at a range then you have narrowed the search scope to the guys at the range. >The final problem is the paperwork. Cops today can barly keep up >with the paperwork involved with the Brady Bill. Could you imagine >if they had to keep track of AMMO purchases? Not a problem, thats an opportunity. I build very large, very high reliability computer systems. I can build machines that deal with several million transactions a day for less than a million and run them for less than a quarter million a year. That is cheap when one considers the cost of investigation saved. >The provision to give people the means to commit treason against the >government are in the Constitution. That's why the second amendment >is there -- to empower the people to protect themselves against the >government. Making that argument defeats your case. Irespective of the framers of the constitution nobody in Congress or the Administration believes that you have a right to take up arms against the government. In fact they are scared of the militia movement and the NRA. Every time you make that argument you make it harder for people to accept your case. Its like hearing a Marxist spout stuff from Capital to support a civil liberties. Regardless of wether the content makes sense the form of the argument is a complete turn off. I used to side with HCI before I started talking to the talk.politics.guns people. That convinced me that they were a threat to the security of the country - even before McVeigh sent me a mail defending his 2nd ammendment rights that looked very much like yours. Regardless of whether he is guilty or not I still regard him and those that hold his views to be as serious a threat to the USA as the Red Army Faction were in Germany, or the Red Brigades in Italy or the IRA in the UK. If people carelessly justify terrorism they are fueling that fire. Up until now the US has not had a serious terrorist problem. If terrorism becomes widespread then don't imagine the constitution will be a protection. Thomas and Reinquist are not going to stop measures to "protect the nation" even if like the WWII internement of Japaneese nationals they are in gross violation of the constitution. If you think the wiretap bill is bad think on this, all guns of all types banned except where held by special license. Checkpoints at major road intersections. Stop and search patrols in city centers and the army on the street. Its not at all far fetched, the UKgovt took less than a year to introduce such measures in Northern Ireland. Constitution or not, don't expect that the US Congress won't make a similar response. Phill From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 5 17:21:12 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:21:12 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy Message-ID: At 5:34 PM 8/5/96, James C. Sewell wrote: > Personally I think I would approach it as the privacy we have with the >eontents of our car's trunk. If an officer has probable cause to search >the trunk then he can, otherwise he can't. It's not a perfect system but >it does work better than other alternatives I can think of. This comparison breaks down completely. The police are not involved, so the language of "probable cause" is inappropriate. We may differ in our opinions on whether employers can search mail and car trunks, but the language of "probable cause" suggests a legal/constitutional issue that is probably not there. Imagine Alice operates a courier service and owns and operates several delievery vehicles . Bob, her employee, drives one of her cars. Is he to imagine that the trunk may not be opened by Alice unless she has "probable cause"? Nonsense. It it _her_ car, bought and paid for. To imagine otherwise is to wander into a fever swamp in which owners of property may not even use their own propery. (If anyone suggests that landlords cannot barge into tenant's apartments, this is a different situation. For one thing, there are usually terms and conditions spelled out in a contract about when and under what circumstances a landlord may enter the premises.) Is corporate e-mail more like the courier service example or more like the landlord-tenant example? I suggest the former, as the e-mail is used in the everyday furtherance of business, and illegality/abuse may harm the owner, as with drugs in the trunk of a courier car. (The owner of a property who leases it out is generally not held liable for the misdeeds and crimes of his tenants, except in some special circumstances. Hotel owners are not guilty of the crimes of the residents, which are of course common.) The original question asker, who asked how to help write his corporate e-mail policy, is free to lobby for a different interpretation; this is, after all, a matter of agreed-upon policy, not a matter for the state to stick its nose into. --Tim May P.S. > Just remember, as was said, once you make a policy it becomes precedence >and will stick with you forever... longer if it's a bad one. > Alice the Courier Service is of course perfectly free to announce new policies, so your point is incorrect. --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From deviant at pooh-corner.com Mon Aug 5 17:28:16 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:28:16 +0800 Subject: FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS In-Reply-To: <199608051211.GAA26432@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Anonymous wrote: > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:11:56 -0600 > From: Anonymous > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS > > FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS > DAVID STERNLIGHT > Whoever did this obviously lacks imagination, creativity, and brains. Not only would David not use such undescriptive phrases, but he would (and has said so) not use a remailer. Whoever did this, you are a true idiot. --Deviant "Uncle Cosmo ... why do they call this a word processor?" "It's simple, Skyler ... you've seen what food processors do to food, right?" -- MacNelley, "Shoe" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgZDIzAJap8fyDMVAQFpZQf/Vh9A5bI6EABRkOn+izlflDSQO97FSc5T PSddf/oH/a6biQeFsS+YLIZ/U9ZSxPUB3T0mquZe0YEtowa5FWNmfgKT40ERBHBf n3fQrI1auBKuZ6W5TJz69qJLHUJj2ngbKqwQ49Ey3urnl4cAJqGCsvSI3qJyadmM P6A44jHyc0YI83tOGgjTRzxbjXMGk5nmSkFfTQnDGnhpZNI7t0C5+cJ/iJ002YfS zcTw2UbOx3jq5WLIqjFN2DZBgZy275xP0hZWQFanY4H4E90pmVKqPkW3ZQVdXysO 1fvB0hfreezH6Uc/jvDq4Zszv/m+bsAXPXDdj9EOclW0b7Pf00vEUg== =Dn7o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dsmith at prairienet.org Mon Aug 5 17:34:08 1996 From: dsmith at prairienet.org (David E. Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:34:08 +0800 Subject: PGP public key servers are useful! [noise?] Message-ID: <199608052141.QAA15347@bluestem.prairienet.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 05 16:43:42 1996 Over the last couple of weeks, I've noticed a lot of subscribers who PGP clearsign their messages, but who haven't uploaded their keys to any of the public keyservers. Those keys are most useful when they're available to people who might want to use them, so I'm asking those of you who haven't sent them to a keyserver to do so. (The quick version: paste your key in cleartext into a letter, sent to pgp-public-keys at pgp.mit.edu with the subject: ADD. If you don't have it in cleartext, do pgp -kxa and follow the prompts.) TIA, dave - ---- David E. Smith POB 324 Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702 dsmith at prairienet.org http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith send mail of 'send pgp-key' subject for my PGP public key "Heard a lot of talk about this Jesus, a man of love, a man of strength; but what a man was two thousand years ago means nothing at all to me today ... " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Automagically signed with Pronto Secure for Windows. iQEVAwUBMgZrGzVTwUKWHSsJAQGRtwf/TPjleUXsqf2GcEsutZNnyYD82bYM2ZT/ NQm0BeUTcNdU+jA/2z5aiy+FRozcL6EeIDPULtCGeMvDYu95vBOjnimIxMjng9J6 mIpFIQzXUN4ZDdE7m1khbn8Vdk/V0kehQL318LzB484SQILWNYvTNrj/cDq6CdKW RMyyOH3+5VH1xRZJjFYvTsKnCszmtZIIvrjOt9+nX/j02bWnZRV7IGbOFjSrCL6p r1TZG/TnU60YGz/TaUhp5OCj0bFlkFQlg+NmcwR9j4rlIza9ujBSuGIcflMRWTG3 ighrCC9cpL1v/qJkHXKy67xdvIZWlq7UiyqTRUEBg7rwjSBca0YgZQ== =rDtm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 5 17:35:29 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:35:29 +0800 Subject: fbi, crypto, and defcon Message-ID: <199608052125.OAA29181@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:40 AM 8/5/96 -0700, Martin Minow wrote: >Arun Mehta writes: >>True, though even better would be simply to charge you a flat >>rate. If billing is that expensive, why bother? >Tragedy of the Commons. > >Flat rate works only if no single user can use more than >a tiny fraction of the total bandwidth. Using a "Tragedy of the Commons" analysis on telecommunications systems isn't very appropriate. Modern telephone systems have a fairly well-defined instantaneous capacity, do not wear out based on usage, unused capacity doesn't 'store up' for later use, nor do sporadic attempts at excessive use have anything more than a very transitory effect. (fast busy signals.) And in addition, a person doesn't profit in an unlimited fashion by attempting to over-use the telephone: Nobody I know would spend 24 hours per day on the phone if it were free, for example. So there's little motivation to over-use the resource. The Internet is even more "friendly" along these lines than telephone systems: The Internet doesn't "fail hard," denying access when usage is high, it merely slows all access to match the need. There are enough differences that I think Internet deserves an entirely new analysis. Don't worry, it will be also be interesting, from a game-theory perspective, but it will be very distinct from a classic "tragedy of the commons" situation. The current question is how to motivate individuals and companies to invest in improvements to the Internet that will benefit everyone. However, I don't think that will be the limiting factor that it may currently appear to be. Due to the nature of the Internet, there is nothing to prevent a company (such as AOL, Compuserve, or other) from building a shadow version of the Internet, through which all of its customer's traffic will pass until it emerges local to its destination. Customers who appreciate this kind of prompter service will be motivated to pay slightly more and will buy Internet access through that company. So the "commons" won't be quite so "common," and product differentiation will allow choice. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From vinnie at webstuff.apple.com Mon Aug 5 17:57:47 1996 From: vinnie at webstuff.apple.com (Vinnie Moscaritolo) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:57:47 +0800 Subject: Credit Cards over the internet Message-ID: Just read a forwarded message from a merchant who indicated that: Mastercard in no way authorises the transmission of credit card details via the internet/email due to the possibility of fraud. Supposedly if Mastercard finds that any merchant receives such details via internet/email, they will cancel the merchants agreement/rights immediately. While a lot of work is being done regarding the transmission of secure data it has not been perfected yet. Merchants must have special permission to accept details by phone or fax. We have no first hand knowledge of this change in the merchant account rules. As a merchant who accepts credit cards via the internet/email, I know that our credit card fraud rate is around 1 in 1403 transactions. In all cases, the card we were given was stolen by conventional means and the charge was authorized before that knowledge filtered through the credit card system. Seems to me that this is a small percentage. I have heard of no one who has had their card stolen while passing it across the internet. Local restaurants and shops and Unix file servers, yes, but via packet sniffing, no. If the above internet/email restriction is true and if we assume that the people at the credit card companies do know what they are doing, then it sounds like someone might be attempting to kill the SSL method of accepting credit card information in favor of some other standard such as SET. I'd be willing to bet that SET will be proclaimed as the perfected method that is suitable for use where other methods such as SSL or PGP would not be allowed. I'd also be willing to bet that even with SET, the fraud rate that I experience will remain the same. Does anyone have real facts on this? Vinnie Moscaritolo "Law - Samoan Style" http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 5 18:27:53 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:27:53 +0800 Subject: Public report of the EU crack. Message-ID: <199608052306.QAA04853@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:20 PM 8/5/96 -0700, David M. Rose wrote: >Hallam-Baker wrote: > >>I consider the political dimension of this affair to >>be more significant that the technical. This brings the >>US and the French into the same category of anti-crypto >>government with a habit of poking its nose into other >>people business and getting caught. >> >> Phill > >Say what? John Young I can understand; this blather? > >Att: "Doc" Baker/Mr. Hyde, err, Hallam: any rudimentary text on >diction/grammer/syntax might be helpful to you. Have a little toleration. I've heard he's a FOREIGNER! Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From mpd at netcom.com Mon Aug 5 19:04:48 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:04:48 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) In-Reply-To: <320652BC.31DF@netscape.com> Message-ID: <199608052313.QAA18497@netcom5.netcom.com> Jamie Zawinski wrote: > If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way? > (Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid > telemarketing scum...) The original SSN was never intended to be used as a form of identification, or so the government claimed. You may request from the government a taxpayer ID number, which you may then use in lieu of your SSN for identification purposes, if you desire to hold the government to its original promise. Of course, using a Taxpayer ID everywhere provides you with no more anonymity than using an SSN everywhere. Such is life. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net Mon Aug 5 19:10:08 1996 From: vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net (Erle Greer) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:10:08 +0800 Subject: Off topic: Re: viruss' Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960805231721.006d4cb8@mail.sd.cybernex.net> At 01:38 AM 8/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone know where thre is good virus page???? >I know that there is one out there, but dont have the add. >Zero Cool Let your mouse do the walking. http://www.yahoo.com Type "virus", without the quotes. viola! Good luck! Vagab0nd
Visit web page for public key. From omega at bigeasy.com Mon Aug 5 19:38:02 1996 From: omega at bigeasy.com (Omegaman) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:38:02 +0800 Subject: NYtimes OPed pro-wiretapping 8/2 Message-ID: <199608052354.SAA06636@betty.bigeasy.com> found this today as well. One negative reply letter was also posted. reference: "August 2, 1996 Listening in on Terrorism By PHILIP HEYMANN CAMBRIDGE, Mass. -- President Clinton's major proposals for new powers to fight terrorism are useful and pose no threat to Americans' civil liberties. " ( oooookkaaay...) " Many of these measures are intended only to give government as much power to thwart terrorism as it already has to combat other criminal acts." (do go on...I'm fascinated now) " The part of the plan that has drawn the most criticism from across the political spectrum involves proposals to increase the Government's investigative powers, particularly through wiretapping and other methods of monitoring phone calls. " [..snip..] (assertion follows that current laws are inadequate for electronic surveillance against terrorism.) " In criminal cases the courts have never considered the use of devices that record the numbers of incoming or outgoing calls on a telephone to be significant invasions of privacy." (Never mind what the "people" might say) " But there is no similar provision for investigations of suspected foreign terrorists. Under the President's proposal, agents would be allowed to use the devices if they can show that it is relevant to a terrorism investigation." (not exactly sure how a terrorist investigation differs from a criminal investigation...but this is the distinction Heyman is drawing. In his view, current law is not sufficient against domestic terrorist investigation.) " Under current law, officials must get a separate warrant for each phone the suspect uses unless they can prove the suspect is changing phones purposely to thwart investigation. This is a stricter standard than is applied even to requests to plant a microphone to overhear a suspect." [..snip..] " Government agents would still be required to show probable cause that the suspect is committing one of the offenses on the Federal list and that the calls being monitored will concern that crime. " (Gosh! Who knew the government and the FBI were so powerless?) " Philip Heymann, a former Deputy Attorney General in the Clinton Administration, is a professor at Harvard Law School and the Kennedy School of Government. Copyright 1996 The New York Times Company " (big shock, eh?) ... To say that Mr. Heymann is being misleading is an understatement. He ignores that the government wishes to be able to wiretap for 48 hours without prior court approval. He attempts to imply that the roving wiretap is focused on an individual rather than a location or locations. And he seems to believe that all of these enormous powers will not be abused. I wonder if he would feel differently if his personal FBI file was among those gathered by the Clinton administration. me -------------------------------------------------------------- Omegaman PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 send a message with the text "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key. -------------------------------------------------------------- From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Mon Aug 5 19:38:03 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:38:03 +0800 Subject: Public report of the EU crack. In-Reply-To: <199608052120.OAA06066@web.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: No, no, Dave, you've missed the point. Phill-grams are really stego. Send him an email to get the secret decoder ring. Purple ones work best. On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, David M. Rose wrote: > Hallam-Baker wrote: > > >I consider the political dimension of this affair to > >be more significant that the technical. This brings the > >US and the French into the same category of anti-crypto > >government with a habit of poking its nose into other > >people business and getting caught. > > > > Phill > > Say what? John Young I can understand; this blather? > > Att: "Doc" Baker/Mr. Hyde, err, Hallam: any rudimentary text on > diction/grammer/syntax might be helpful to you. > > Sheesh! At least Sternlight seemed to be acquainted with the English language. > > From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 5 20:27:48 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:27:48 +0800 Subject: The futility of trying to "tag" ammunition Message-ID: At 3:38 AM 8/5/96, Sean Sutherland wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Hallam-Baker Wrote -- >> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 20:20:20 -0400 > >> I personally think that tagants is an insuffieicent approach to >> the problem. Given the number of gun related homicides in the >> US it is not unreasonable to require each individual cartridge >> to be stamped with a serial number and for gun dealers to be >> required to record each individual purchase. That at least >> was my advice to the UK govt after Dunblane. > >There's four major problems with this. First off, a large number of Actually, there are so many problems with this that I dismissed Phill's "plan" out of hand. But since others are weighing in on it, I might as well, too. It has little CP relevance, except that it parallels other seemingly well though-out proposals which crumble when some common sense analysis is used. The key point is this: A billion rounds of ammunition already out in the U.S. + Perps typically fire fewer than 5 rounds in committing their crimes + Incredible logistical problems in tagging and tracking shells = An idea shot down. >guns used in homicides are revolvers or derringers (anyone got the >numbers?). These guns don't spit out the shells. So, it would be Most older guns in the hands of street punks are revolvers, though this is not necessarily where handgun homicides mostly come from. Those are "home shootings"--a man kills his wife, a woman kills her husband, a brother shoots a brother, etc. Most of these are done with guns that are handy and that have been in the family/house for a long time....most are, thus, revolvers. (The 1911 .45 is moderately common, but not nearly so much so as old .38s and even .22s.) In any case, Phill's proposal would collapse for this situation. First, the guns are very old and the ammo would not be the new "tagged cases." (In most cases, a old "box of shells." Most home owners of guns never fire practice rounds and tend to have a few boxes at most of shells, which they keep for many, many years.) And in most home killings, it becomes clear real fast who did the shooting. And, as Sean notes, these revolvers will not eject the shells. It is marginally possible that spent shells could be identified when fired from semi-automatics, of course. Other factors to consider, though: 1. The vast amount of ammo already out there. Given that perps typically fire only a handful in their criminal career, not hard to just use older ammo. (The Sternlight-favored argument might be invoked here: "Ah, but criminals are too stupid to do this, and so it will help." I disagree. Most street punks would understand the principal. Just as they seek out "clean" guns, they surely would not load their carry guns with 9mm ammo bought and "registered" under their own names. 2. Target shooters consume the vast majority of rounds. (This is why foolish proposals by Moynihan to "force" ammo to be sold for, say, $5 a round, is ineffectual for the intended purpose: the perp loading his .357 or 9mm will hardly be deterred by a $30 price, even assuming he would buy in a store at these prices.) (Think of the black market supply: my several thousand rounds of 9mm, .45, .223, etc., would be worth $15,000 or more at "Moynihan prices. The Feds could try to outlaw all ammo transfers between individuals...left as an exercise as to how effective this could ever be, and whether juries would send people off to the pen for the crime of selling some .45 shells.) 3. Reloaders. As others have noted, there is an essentially inexhaustible supply of reloaded shells. 4. The vast amound of ammo already out there. Crates and crates and crates of surplus ammo in all sorts of calibers, entire container ships of ammo coming to the U.S. (e.g, I just got my UPS delivery of 850 rounds of a Czech brand, Sellior and Bellot, and my 1000 rounds of Italian Fiocchi are due any day...multiply this by 100,000. 5. Stockpiling. Don't forget the "law of unintended consequences." The biggest gun boom in history came when the Feds cracked down on gun purchases. California gun stores were crowded for months. (Ditto for high-capacity magazines: in the months of "warning" that people had, factories cranked up production, customers stockpiled, and there was a sudden surge of interest in getting that previously-obscure 3-round mag for one's Glocks! :-}) >utterly useless to do so. The second problem is the number of shells >expelled in the US every day. I doubt there's enough room on the >butt end of a shell to print that number (it couldn't be printed on >the sides, as this would screw up the fit of the shell, and possibly >weaken it). And, it'd be almost impossible getting gun manufacturers to 6. There isn't enough room. The shell I have in my hand barely has enough room to print "FEDERAL 45 AUTO". A unique numbering of the total ammo sales, even by boxes and not individual cases, would need a 9-12 characters (and would likely run out in a few year--12-14 characters would be needed). Actually, this is the "most solvable" of the problems...the others are the real killers. >pay for the equiptment that it would take to emprint serial numbers. >The third number is that cartridges >are recycled. Aside from reloading your own, there's a large number >of people that sweep up brass from gun ranges to reload themselves. >The idea that someone swept up the brass could get almost anyone off. 7. There's this...and there's the possibility that one could implicate _others_. For example, pick up a few empty shells at the range. I imagine there might be some souvenir value in buying a "This shell was fired by Dianne Feinstein." (For the uniniated, at the same time DiFi was railing against the public's ownership of guns, she was carrying one in her purse.) This gets back to the "chain of evidence" point we so often mention. >The final problem is the paperwork. Cops today can barly keep up >with the paperwork involved with the Brady Bill. Could you imagine >if they had to keep track of AMMO purchases? 8. Indeed, it would inflate ammo prices too much. (Given that people like me have thousands of rounds, the ability to reload, and would be happy to undercut the local K-Mart's price.) >The NRA, I'm sorry to say, has screwed up royally. It's about time >that they regroup, or else they fall. > Indeed, I refused to renew my membership because of their wishy-washyness on basic issues. In my opinion, spending the "Life Member" fees on a Dillon reloading press is a better investment. --Tim May HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Mon Aug 5 20:31:15 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:31:15 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806003317.00a56cac@vertexgroup.com> At 12:59 PM 8/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >Black Unicorn wrote: >> >[ ...random losers asking for your SSN... ] >> > I was horrified and gave a random number. >> >> You should always be horrified, and always give a random number. > >Well, it would be nice if it was that easy. You (legally) need to give >the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS, >right? Such as your employer. But it's not always clear who else needs >it. Originally the 1939 ('37?) Social Security Act explicitly stated that the SSN could not be used for anything except SSA matters. Times apparently have changed or perhaps it's just de facto legislation by complicity. From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 5 20:36:30 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:36:30 +0800 Subject: United States as Northern Ireland Message-ID: At 9:16 PM 8/5/96, hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: >If you think the wiretap bill is bad think on this, all guns >of all types banned except where held by special license. >Checkpoints at major road intersections. Stop and search >patrols in city centers and the army on the street. Its not >at all far fetched, the UKgovt took less than a year to >introduce such measures in Northern Ireland. Constitution or >not, don't expect that the US Congress won't make a similar >response. Yes, I agree. Welcome to our side, Phill! --Tim May HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 5 20:45:31 1996 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:45:31 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <199608042250.PAA13719@toad.com> Message-ID: <4u6733$30p@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <199608042250.PAA13719 at toad.com>, Bill Stewart wrote: >According to Alaska Airlines, the FAA's policy as of last week >has switched to a mandatory policy that if you don't produce >government-issued photo-id, you can't get on the plane; >the previous policy had been more flexible. So does anyone have any sort of "official" list as to what constitutes "government-issued photo-id"? I'll be flying within California soon (see you at Crypto...), as as a "furriner", I have no US ID. I do have photo-id issued by _another_ government, though (a health card; I wonder if they'll have heard of that...). - Ian "I'd try to be sure to get to the airport early, but the plane leaves at some ridiculous time like 7:30am" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgafi0ZRiTErSPb1AQFsOQQAmxihUufsUh5EYbJ1aHrnP0zFomUb/uo9 qAScGSlWAzzpXYuXnZaG29VeSJ60b/haXaIbSR8C1X4oEIUjiv69gzYa/YJS7RTr Vb4JEKZdJyiDPxZ7rlyVBquWGLBItazw4mkPAzFi4r6f0nnlXifq1zWGtTR7qakZ 1nGEEYfBeQE= =h/Zx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From steve at edmweb.com Mon Aug 5 20:46:08 1996 From: steve at edmweb.com (Steve Reid) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:46:08 +0800 Subject: "lite" version of cpunks available? Message-ID: Are there any filtered versions of the Cypherpunks mailing list available? I'm currently subscribed to cypherpunks-d at gateway.com, but that machine is down and I haven't received anything in the past few days. From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 5 20:47:25 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:47:25 +0800 Subject: Internet Economics Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806011555.00913cdc@panix.com> At 02:22 PM 8/5/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >The current question is how to motivate individuals and companies to invest >in improvements to the Internet that will benefit everyone. However, I don't >think that will be the limiting factor that it may currently appear to be. >Due to the nature of the Internet, there is nothing to prevent a company >(such as AOL, Compuserve, or other) from building a shadow version of the >Internet, through which all of its customer's traffic will pass until it >emerges local to its destination. Note that this is the business model for @HOME which will be handling the heavy lifting for various Internet Over Cable systems around the country. DCF From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 5 20:49:34 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:49:34 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806010151.008f8f48@panix.com> At 12:59 PM 8/5/96 -0700, Jamie Zawinski wrote: >Well, it would be nice if it was that easy. You (legally) need to give >the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS, >right? Such as your employer. Virtually no one in the history of the world has done any time for giving a false SS#. Considering the fact that millions of Americans daily drive drunk, exceed the lawful speed limit, drift through stop signs without coming to a complete halt pick each other up in bars and do a host of other things that are much more likely to get them in trouble than making up an SS#, I am constantly *amazed* that people always advise you not to do so. If it's good enough for the President of Israel, it's good enough for anyone. >Is it >needed to get a driver's license? (The fine print on the DMV forms says >"yes".) But most DMVs don't check and the SS is still resisting verification services (at least until the Immigration Bill passes). >Is it necessary to make use of employer-sponsored medical >insurance? (I suspect that the answer to this one is "no", except for >the fact that when my employer set up my medical insurance they let the >insurance company use my SSN as my insurance-related-ID-number. But in >any event, my dentist told me, "if you don't give it to us, they won't >pay.") Just make sure you give the insurance company and the doctor the same number. >If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way? >(Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid >telemarketing scum...) The SS resists issuing new numbers in spite of widespread duplication and theft. Soon people will find themselves denied the right to work in this country unless the SS reverses this reluctance. If your SS# is stolen and used "too many times" in a future worker verification program, you're screwed. And there won't even be any welfare for you. Use Alta Vista to find the SS Number FAQ. There's more stuff. DCF From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Aug 5 20:58:43 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:58:43 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) Message-ID: At 16:13 8/5/96, Mike Duvos wrote: >Jamie Zawinski wrote: > >> If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way? >> (Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid >> telemarketing scum...) To prevent the blacklisting of labor leaders by SSN, the Social Security Act has a provision that allows you to request a new SSN. You have a right to get a new SSN issued. Don't expect your SS office to know anything about it. [disclaimer: I am not an attorney] -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 5 21:12:53 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:12:53 +0800 Subject: Public report of the EU crack. Message-ID: At 12:12 AM 8/6/96, John C. Randolph wrote: >Well, well, well! > >So we gain a several allies in our battle against key-escrow, and >lo and behold, it's all the *other* governments who don't want >Uncle Sam to read their mail. > >I hope that any c'punks in foreign countries can make some politcal >hay with this: "Don't let the yankee imperialists tell us a goddamn thing >about crypto policy! They'll only use it to pull weasel moves in the >trade talks!" > >Actually, it might be a good thing for Her Majesty's government to >issue an advisory, saying not to buy US routers and encryption software, >because it can't be trusted, under present US ITAR rules. Agreed. The report was only surpising to me in that it appeared in print...anyone who read Bamford in '82 knew this sort of economic espionage was a major mission of the NSA and various private contractors. On the subject of routers and sniffers, excuse me if I'm misremembering things, but wasn't a certain anti-Mitnick hacker writing in one of his books about his role in developing certain "packet sniffers" that had properties desirable to the U.S. intelligence community? Perhaps the Brits are just being "monitored" by the Colonials? (If I sound paranoid, I just came from a showing of "Chain Reaction." Some flaws, but also some good reminders about the dangers of the "black budget," large listening posts in Virgina (and England and elsewhere), and a U.S. government that now sits astride the world.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jcr at idiom.com Mon Aug 5 21:25:44 1996 From: jcr at idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:25:44 +0800 Subject: Public report of the EU crack. Message-ID: <199608060012.RAA06035@idiom.com> Well, well, well! So we gain a several allies in our battle against key-escrow, and lo and behold, it's all the *other* governments who don't want Uncle Sam to read their mail. I hope that any c'punks in foreign countries can make some politcal hay with this: "Don't let the yankee imperialists tell us a goddamn thing about crypto policy! They'll only use it to pull weasel moves in the trade talks!" Actually, it might be a good thing for Her Majesty's government to issue an advisory, saying not to buy US routers and encryption software, because it can't be trusted, under present US ITAR rules. -jcr From omega at bigeasy.com Mon Aug 5 21:34:21 1996 From: omega at bigeasy.com (Omegaman) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:34:21 +0800 Subject: NYtimes on " 'net telphony" Message-ID: <199608052330.SAA06495@betty.bigeasy.com> An article I found on Internet Telephony today in the New York Times. reference: article also contained a diagram of a traditional Point-to-point synchronous phone call and a packet-switched Internet call which shoed pieces of a sentence being transferred over multiple routes. " _ Free Long Distance Phone Calls! (Computer Extra)_ By PETER H. LEWIS Sometimes Internet technology moves faster than the speed of sound. Nearly 400 Intel Corp. engineers were waiting for Brian Frank to stage a demonstration of Internet telephones last week at a business meeting in Oregon, when suddenly his laptop computer started ringing. Frank, a summer intern, had just finished loading new software that would let him place a phone call from his laptop to an associate's PC backstage. But before he could make the call, someone in Norway had seen Frank's network connection pop up on an Internet phone directory on the World Wide Web and dialed him up. " [..snip..] " For the Intel engineers, it was an industry wake-up call. Hitherto a hacker's hobby, the use of microphones and computers to place phone calls, send faxes and transmit pager signals over the Internet now seems ready to emerge as a serious business opportunity. " [..snip..] " Technical drawbacks still keep Internet telephony from being a true substitute for the good old, reliable telephone network. And yet, the number of regular Internet telephone users is expected to rise from fewer than 400,000 last year to 16 million by 1999, according to a forecast from the research company International Data Corp. By that year, IDC predicts, Internet telephony could constitute a $500 million market. Beyond cheap phone calls, the possible applications include: -- Catalogue shopping on the World Wide Web, where the customer could speak live with a sales agent. -- Work-team software that would enable groups working collaboratively on documents via the Internet to converse about the project, too. -- Adding voice capabilities to multiplayer computer games like "Doom" or "Quake," so that teammates could coach one another and jeer the opposition. " [..snip..] " In fact, Intel and Microsoft late last month jointly announced a set of technical standards that are intended to promote compatibility among various makes of hardware and software used in Internet telephony. " [..snip..] " "A lot of people look at Internet telephony as a replacement or alternative for long-distance service, and that's the most obvious use for it today," said Frederic H. Yeomans, marketing manager for Intel's Internet and communications group in Hillsboro, Ore. But Yeomans said the technology was advancing so quickly that new applications, possibly ones not yet imagined, would inevitably arise. " (hype? You make the call..) [..snip..] " Telephone companies appear to be divided over how to respond to the technological challenges. "Everyone would agree it's a compelling, alternative form of communication, and we're excited about it," said Mark Fisher, vice president for Pacific Bell Internet Services in San Francisco, a unit of the regional Bell holding company Pacific Telesis. " [..snip..] " Other, smaller phone companies are not as optimistic, and are mounting a legal and lobbying challenge to try to halt competition from the computer industry. " [..snip..] NYT-08-04-96 1932EDT Copyright 1996 The New York Times Company ... What follows is more hype about a "killer app" that will bring this technology to the forefront. Little is said about current bandwitdth limitations or PC technology limitations. Nothing is said of crypto technology either. me -------------------------------------------------------------- Omegaman PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 send a message with the text "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key. -------------------------------------------------------------- From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Mon Aug 5 22:05:16 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:05:16 +0800 Subject: Stealth cookies Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806003319.00a5a274@vertexgroup.com> Doubleclick was the company. They place banner ads on other pages that deliver a cookie header to your browser. Their trick is a script that delivers a cookie along with the graphic. Here's a sample from one of their own ads: Set-Cookie: IAF=x; path=/; expires=Wed, 09-Nov-99 23:59:00 GMT And right from the horses mouth: "DoubleClick has created the largest and most complete user and organization database on the Internet. DoubleClick is able to tell an incredible amount of information about a user, such as operating system, location, organization name, type, revenue, and size (click here for a more detailed description of target selection criteria). Along with sophisticated scheduling and our incredible DART software, DoubleClick is able to automatically and dynamically assign the best ad banner for a user." and "DoubleClick development ad banners are designed to capture more data about an individual or to attract potential advertisers, both of which ultimately benefit all DoubleClick Network member Web sites." Pomp and Puffery. But it makes the marketeers drool. As a user downloads more doubleclick banners, the cookie allows doubleclick to accumulate more crumbs in the form of url of the referring page. Just as traditional marketing demographics were founded on what magazines one subscribes, web advertising hopes to build demographics on what pages you view. Solution? 1) Don't put your name in the netscape configuration (d'oh) 2) make your cookie.txt file read only 3) use www.anonymizer.com when surfing Turning of "auto-load images" will not prevent the doubleclick cookie from being transmitted or recieved. aside note: there is a current cp archive at http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/ but it could use a local search tool. --j At 03:33 PM 8/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >There's been a thread here about some outfit that, by being referenced >from web documents here and there, would insert its cookie in your >browser even though you've never directly visited that site. I've >nuked any & all messages about that; if anybody recalls any details, >I'd be thankful for the information. > >______c_____________________________________________________________________ >Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, > m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * > * three heads and eight >arms. > From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 5 22:11:12 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:11:12 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: At 1:28 AM 8/6/96, Ian Goldberg wrote: >So does anyone have any sort of "official" list as to what constitutes >"government-issued photo-id"? I'll be flying within California soon >(see you at Crypto...), as as a "furriner", I have no US ID. I do have >photo-id issued by _another_ government, though (a health card; I wonder >if they'll have heard of that...). > > - Ian "I'd try to be sure to get to the airport early, but the plane > leaves at some ridiculous time like 7:30am" As I recall, Ian, you are some kind of Damned Foreigner, a Canadian, and possibly a Jew (from a name like "Goldberg"). As such, your Canuck documents are worthless in these Beknighted States (at least until the memory of the single person killed in Atlanta fades...Atlantans are worth the lives of 100 lives of Third Worlders, which is why the single death in Atlanta justifies this crackdown). Perhaps if you coverted to either Southern Baptist or Mormon your stay here would be easier..... --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 5 22:12:06 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:12:06 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: At 1:01 AM 8/6/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >The SS resists issuing new numbers in spite of widespread duplication and >theft. Soon people will find themselves denied the right to work in this >country unless the SS reverses this reluctance. If your SS# is stolen and >used "too many times" in a future worker verification program, you're >screwed. And there won't even be any welfare for you. > >Use Alta Vista to find the SS Number FAQ. There's more stuff. BTW, I attempted to comply with the law in a recent request posted to ba.jobs.offered and scruz.general: I solicited workers for some brush clearing on my place, but advised them to only apply if--appearing to be Hispanic, Latin, Mexican, or otherwise unOfficial--they provided proof of their legal ability to work for me. Personally, I don't care. In fact, when employing gardeners and yard works I prefer Mexicans. But the law says, these days, that I must verify the legality of workers *if* they appear to be dark-skinned, Mexican, Latin, or the like. I say "if" because there are no requirements in general for white-skinned, Anglo workers....no work permits, no proofs of citizenship (such a document is currently lacking in the American pantheon...I, a mixed descendant of Mayflower colonist and Scandinavian immigrants, lack such "proof"). Predictably, I got e-mail threatening me with legal action (ha!) and claiming me to be a racist. I promise not to ask my potential employees for legal proof of their right to work if the Feds and Sacramentans promise not to make it a law that I check such things, and if the laws are not written such that I am a felon for not asking for such documents from a dark, dusky Mexican but not from a blonde- or red-haired ubermensch. (Jews I haven't figured out...some seem to pass the "no documents required test" and some I want to demand Green Cards for...ironically, it may be "discrimination" for me to request that these "dusky" folks supply proof of their permission to work in these Beknighted States. A strange world we live in.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 5 22:41:54 1996 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:41:54 +0800 Subject: Ballistics Message-ID: <199608060242.TAA06198@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 04 Aug 96, dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote: >Is there truth to the rumor that poking a file inside the barrel will >alter the marks on future test firings? A much better idea is to clean the barrel with a stiff wire brush. If you blue the inside of the barrel, and then brush the bluing off, that is enough. Alternatively/additionally, fire several hundred rounds with the weapon. Either will change the microscopic pattern of grooves sufficiently to cause a mismatch. Poking a file around in the barrel is a good way to ruin a gun. Changing barrels is a good idea as well. I can change the barrel on my Desert Eagle in about 15 seconds. A better idea yet is to fabricate a removable silencer (that can be attached/detached without modifying the barrel) with a wire brush surrounding the muzzle opening (similar to a batery terminal cleaner, but sturdier, of course) so that the bristles put their own marks on the bullet as it leaves the barrel. Even if the silencer is found, you will never be able to put it on aligned exactly the same way, and the marks will not line up exactly. Alternatively, you could mount the bristles on a bearing so they can rotate freely, so the patterns of marks constantly change as the brush rotates. Of course, getting caught with a silencer is a good way to go directly to jail without passing GO. Of course, if you are serious about avoiding this kind of hassle, you will mount a bag to the receiver of your gun to catch the fired shells, so that they aren't lying around for curious people to find. Jonathan Wienke "1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" --Adolf Hitler "46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." --The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm 1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.? Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Mon Aug 5 22:56:36 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 13:56:36 +0800 Subject: Credit Cards over the internet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [set discussion is available on set-discuss at commerce.net . Majordomo stuff] This would seem to be a new policy; previously I'd heard that mastercard and visa were going to be encouraging the use of SET quite strongly, but since SET isn't going to be available until at least Q1 97, it would be silly to stop all activity now. SET is massively over-engineered and is one of most obnoxious crypto protocols you'll find, but it does have some cute features (merchant never learns card number, etc). Simon --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From dfloyd at IO.COM Mon Aug 5 23:00:40 1996 From: dfloyd at IO.COM (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:00:40 +0800 Subject: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608060328.WAA07633@pentagon.io.com> > > > Does anyone know what the equivalent technology is on Microsoft to > Netscape's cookie technology? Does Microsoft have support for cookies or > not? > > All of the discussion on the list to do with > cookies is related to Netscape. Does this mean that if one switches to > Microsoft Explorer one can avoid the problem? Many thanks. MSIE supports cookies. > > Anne Eisenberg > aeisenb at duke.poly.edu > From smart at mel.dit.csiro.au Mon Aug 5 23:11:56 1996 From: smart at mel.dit.csiro.au (Bob Smart) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:11:56 +0800 Subject: view from Australia (Re: United States as Northern Ireland) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608060349.AA24880@shark.mel.dit.csiro.au> In Australia the gun lobby are now deeply distrusted. During the current crackdown on high powered and repeating weapons they have made many statements, at all levels of their movement, that indicate that they want the guns in order to kill people and to give themselves the option of insurrection. Unlike the US this is not an activity that is supported by the constitution and the people are strongly against it. If we assume that the gun lobby will lose, [please I am not discussing whether it *should* lose and I'm not interested in arguments on this so send them to the list not to me], then supporters of privacy and freedom through cryptography do the cause a great disservice by associating themselves with the gun lobby. In fact we are passing up a great chance to sell the cause of communication freedom through cryptography by arguing: Communication privacy through cryptographic technology is a necessary counter-balance to the inevitable increase in state control of public spaces [in an age when weapons technology permits weapons that can kill large numbers of people to be easily concealed]. Secure electronic communication is the freedom that carries no direct risk to other people. It is the one that must be preserved in a free society. The 1990s is the decade of the bloodless revolution built on the freedom of communication. Preserving free communication is the vital step in countering out-of-control governments and criminal organizations, and cryptography is the way to keep communication free. I don't think this line of argument will appeal to cypherpunks but if there are other organizations running this line I'd be keen to support them. Bob Smart From gimonca at skypoint.com Mon Aug 5 23:22:57 1996 From: gimonca at skypoint.com (Charles Gimon) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:22:57 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 17:33:17 -0700 > From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) > Subject: Re: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) > Before this gets too out of hand, I'm going to mention that Chris Hibbert's Social Security Number FAQ (posted regularly to several newsgroups, including news.answers) is superb. Great job of separating legitimate paranoia from old wives' tales. Check for it in Usenet or your favorite search engine. Remember--privacy is your own responsibility. > At 12:59 PM 8/5/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Black Unicorn wrote: > >> > >[ ...random losers asking for your SSN... ] > >> > I was horrified and gave a random number. > >> > >> You should always be horrified, and always give a random number. > > > >Well, it would be nice if it was that easy. You (legally) need to give > >the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS, > >right? Such as your employer. But it's not always clear who else needs > >it. > > Originally the 1939 ('37?) Social Security Act explicitly stated that the > SSN could not be used for anything except SSA matters. Times apparently have > changed or perhaps it's just de facto legislation by complicity. > > From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 5 23:38:46 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:38:46 +0800 Subject: Integrating PGP 3.0 Library with INN In-Reply-To: <199608052017.PAA09340@homeport.org> Message-ID: Adam Shostack writes: > Igor Chudov wrote: > > | Has anyone thought of integrating PGP 3.0 library with INN? > | > | I was thinking along the lines of having PGPMoose support built > | right into INN: if an arriving article is posted to a moderated > | newsgroup for which a PGP key is available in the INN's keyring, > | INN verifies existence and correctness of a PGP signature. > > > | If moderators choose short enough keys (512 bits for example), this > | verification will not take any significant amount of CPU time. > > Its my experience that at full feed sites, there isn't enough cpu to > do this. A p-90 can get ovewhelmed pretty easily trying to keep up > with the load. Trying to look into the body of an article means at > least a few hundred more ops per article. You could do this on a leaf > node. However, you cut the reliability of the system by adding things > to go wrong. Better to have a scanner that checks specific moderated > groups after INN has deposited the articles. It's wasteful to run this checking at every Usenet node. It would be more efficient to run PHPMoose checking at a few trusted sites and have them issue NoCeMs for articles that fail the check. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From mpd at netcom.com Mon Aug 5 23:55:56 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:55:56 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608060439.VAA25581@netcom22.netcom.com> tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: > Predictably, I got e-mail threatening me with legal action > (ha!) and claiming me to be a racist. > I promise not to ask my potential employees for legal proof > of their right to work if the Feds and Sacramentans promise > not to make it a law that I check such things, and if the > laws are not written such that I am a felon for not asking > for such documents from a dark, dusky Mexican but not from a > blonde- or red-haired ubermensch. Yet, when the laws are "improved" to apply to all equally, people still bitch. The producers of the geriatric porn film "Grandma Does Grandpa", and the popular sequel, "Grandma Does Grandpa II", must show at the beginning of the film the address where the legally required affidavits proving that Grandma and Grandpa are over 18 years of age are available for inspection. If they fail to do this, of course, they are child pornographers, and may fork over many decades of their lives and hundreds of thousands of their dollars towards the official government crusade to protect our nation's youth from exploitation. The fact that Grandma and Grandpa are obviously within mere months of buying the farm does nothing to mitigate their offense, should they decide that the law is not worth bothering with. "What are you in for?" "Child Porn." "How old were the kids?" "In their mid 70s." "Ewwwwwww. That's sick man! You're disgusting." :) -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 5 23:57:17 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:57:17 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) (fwd) Message-ID: At 2:34 AM 8/6/96, Charles Gimon wrote: >Forwarded message: >> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 17:33:17 -0700 >> From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) >> Subject: Re: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) >> > >Before this gets too out of hand, I'm going to mention that Chris >Hibbert's Social Security Number FAQ (posted regularly to several >newsgroups, including news.answers) is superb. Great job of >separating legitimate paranoia from old wives' tales. Check for it >in Usenet or your favorite search engine. I _know_, Chris Hibbert. Chris Hibbert is a _friend_ of mine. And this is not just old wives' tales. (w apologies to the Texas senator) --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Mon Aug 5 23:59:15 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:59:15 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806044723.01073e4c@vertexgroup.com> At 07:37 PM 8/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >At 1:01 AM 8/6/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: > >>The SS resists issuing new numbers in spite of widespread duplication and >>theft. Soon people will find themselves denied the right to work in this >>country unless the SS reverses this reluctance. If your SS# is stolen and >>used "too many times" in a future worker verification program, you're >>screwed. And there won't even be any welfare for you. >> >>Use Alta Vista to find the SS Number FAQ. There's more stuff. > >BTW, I attempted to comply with the law in a recent request posted to >ba.jobs.offered and scruz.general: I solicited workers for some brush >clearing on my place, but advised them to only apply if--appearing to be >Hispanic, Latin, Mexican, or otherwise unOfficial--they provided proof of >their legal ability to work for me. > Hmmm. Actually a long time ago I lost my job with Greenpeace out of refusal to sign an I-9 which was in '86 the Department of Justice's form to exhibit eligibility to work in the US. The form required that I present two pieces of photo identification or a driver's license to be authenticated by my employer. Maybe it's a CA state law that adds an additional skin tone criterium to for the filing of an I-9. --j From declan at eff.org Tue Aug 6 00:08:17 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:08:17 +0800 Subject: Tolerance (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608051349.GAA22092@toad.com> Message-ID: Hmm... Perhaps my attorney went to Princeton as an undergrad. *shrug* I recall a Princeton diploma on his office wall. Now, Peter, you're a moron, and I call you on it. -Declan On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, peter honeyman wrote: > Declan McCullagh writes: > > > This is attempted proof by credentalism. I call him on it. > > > > Okay, Jim, what _do_ your lawyers say on this? Have you asked them? I, > > too, have an attorney, a civil liberties specialist and a graduate from > > Princeton law. So what? > > declan, you are a fucking liar, and i am calling you on it. princeton does > not have a law school. > > peter > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 6 00:10:31 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:10:31 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Stiffing, Stealth Conferences, Pieces of the True Cross, Stiffies, Grenades and Magic Feathers Robert Hettinga 8/5/96 The principal waste of my time and attention, for the last six weeks or so, has been my negotiations (or lack thereof) with an (as yet ;-)) unnamed cypherpunk (and company) about whether they're going to stiff (or not) Peter Cassidy, me, and two (as yet) unnamed other people, on the final payment (a moderately signigicant chunk of change) for some consulting work we did for them earlier this year. We accuse them of shooting the messenger, because their idea won't work. More to the point, they couldn't make it work even if a market was there. Which it isn't. For them, anyway. They accuse us of gross incompetence. Interesting, because we punchlisted the entire contract (and voluminous addenda) before we shipped the report, have logs of them downloading *all* the source material and appendices, which we put on the server for them *long* before we started dunning them for a past due invoice. Not to mention Peter's written more *published* articles on topics like this (in places, like, say, the Economist) in the last *year* than most people *write* about *anything* in their entire lifetimes. And, of course, they *aren't* going with the business idea they hired us to check out in the first place. Go figure. May you live in interesting times, the chinese curse goes, and things have gotten interesting enough for me lately, thank you very much. I finally decided to unwrap myself emotionally this week from this particular "interesting time", "modulo" (to quote the aforementioned unnamed cypherpunk) real (or imagined :-)) "other" measures our legal help says we can take, should the inevitable stiffing (or not) occur, and concentrate on other stuff, "modulo" my time spent in further negotiations about being stiffed (or not). Clearly, I've been talking with legal types too much lately. Speaking of which, someday, I want to write another non-repudiation rant. Code and Reputation instead of Law and Force, and all that. But not now. We still might work this out. I hope. So, in the background of the aforementioned stiffing (or not), Vinnie Moscaritolo and I have been working on a project, something we've been talking about since January or so. We wanted to throw a small Macintosh crypto conference. Tim Dierks, of Consensus (and ex- Apple DTS, where Vinnie now works), buttonholed Vinnie in a coffee shop a while back, and proposed that we "stealth" the crypto conference idea into one about digital commerce. Seeing as how both Vinnie and I gibber about "Digital Commerce is Financial Cryptography" and all, it was fine by us. Along about June (July?) or so, Vinnie, ever the mil-spec, surreptitiously obtained the necessary sack of grenades and started paddling in towards the beach in a rubber raft, inviting us to mop-up festivities the next morning at dawn. Next thing we all knew, he had scheduled an Apple conference facility in Cupertino for 2 days, the 5th and 6th of September, a Thursday and Friday, and he may have even gotten Apple to spring for groceries, though Those with Proper Budgetary Authority might have gotten hit by a grenade or two, and they (the groceries) could be MIA. Fortunately, this activity has been entirely a ground-up exercise on the developers' part, so going dutch for lunch probably won't scare anyone off, one way or the other. We could probably hold it in a Chuck-E-Cheese and fill the room, people are that interested in internet commerce, and crypto, on the Mac. And those little gophers, of course... Meanwhile, also in my, heh, copious, free time, (did I tell you I'm also pitching sponsors for FC97? :-)), I've been working on a Mac-e$ rant with Vinnie. Collaberation is Hard. But, it looks like we're just about through. Real Soon Now. Kind of reminds me of the late-1960's button which said "Freedom Soon". In the process, said rant has turned into some kind of Magnum Opus, which makes me nervous, with contributions from a couple of other people besides Vinnie and myself. And, no, the one you're reading isn't it. :-). But it's coming. Soon. We hope. All of which brings up the *real* point of this rant. I mean, who *cares* if you can do crypto on the Mac or not? Why not stand back and watch the MacRubble bounce? My thinking about all of this started because I've been reading Vinnie's mail over his shoulder. (Yes. I'm shameless. When we're working on stuff together, we trade our mail about it. As they say in the Mac biz, "Sosumi".) That is, Vinnie's been out there scaring up speakers for this shindig that he "borrowed" the grenades for, and, well, in his tree-shaking (God help you if Vinnie shakes a tree you're in), he invites (if you could call what Vinnie sent an invitation :-)) Yet *Another* Nameless Cypherpunk (YANC) to come and give us what we hope would be a Patented Colorful Cypherpunk crypto-Peptalk, with Vinnie saying to him (YANC), in effect, we need him (YANC) for a proper Laying-On of Hands, him being a Piece of the True Crypto Cross, and all. Of course, Vinnie didn't stand a chance. If we *could* consider Vinnie for it, (which we can't, because he's on the selection committee) he might have earned the coveted 1996 Black Rhino "Mr. Kevlar" award (for courage in the face of imaginary gunfire) for his efforts. Actually, considering the, heh, caliber, of last year's winner, it's just as well. A, uh, bang-up job Mr. Weinstein of Netscape did last year. A hard one to top. And so, the search continues. Both for this year's "Mr. Kevlar", and, of course, for some other Piece of the True Cross. Or so we think. I'll get to that in a moment. What Vinnie got from Yet Another Nameless Cypherpunk, instead of "Yes, I'll come talk about crypto, the universe, and everything.", was Yet Another Rendition of the Apple Macintosh Massacree. In six-part ;-) harmony, of course. And, no, I won't sing it here in its 21-minute (not even 17 for radio) entirety. However, I should really note here that no matter how reasoned and cogent YANC's arguments were (and cogent they were, too: upon reading them, I was halfway to the dumpster with my trusty old PB180, tears in my eyes, before I came to my senses), in general, one of the *big* reasons that Vinnie got the $0$AD ($ame Old $ong And Dance) Re the Future of the Mac as a Viable Platform was probably more because the aforementioned YANC has eschewed speaking opportunities like this for years anyway, and Vinnie probably didn't ask him with the Proper Deference Necessary for a Cypherpunk of That Stature. In fact, I *know* Vinnie didn't, because I read his mail ;-). However, that, of course, wasn't why YANC gave Vinnie the aforementioned Massacree in particular. YANC Massacreed Vinnie because there's a lot of *very* disappointed Mac users out there, YANC being a prominent example thereof. Love the computer. Hate the company. Hell hath no fury like a Mac user (not to mention shareholder) scorned. Heck. I understand *that*. I did the *same* thing just over a year ago this week. "Platforms are Meat", and all that. For what it's worth, YANC, I *feel* your pain... :-). So, I repeat, why *not* stand back and let the MacRubble bounce? No, this is not a segue for me to stand up in my chair and start singing the Apple Company Song at the top of my lungs, complete with a QuickDraw-VR DOOM environment file of One Infinite Loop right up there on the screen for y'all to marvel at and play with using your very own Newtons, all while I sing 100 Company Song verses with a six-part MIDI chorus of my own voice (Yechhh!). Nope. Not me. Indeed, I really *do* say, "Why not?". That is, let's look at what happens if people *don't* develop crypto for the Mac. The truth is folks, not much. First of all, we all think it'll be Real Bad News for Apple Real Soon if real-live strong cryptography isn't shoved as far down as it's possible to make it go into the Mac's operating system, and right now, dammit. But, so *what*? The Mac's only, say, 5-7% of the computer market anyway, and the only possibly new, cool, stuff Apple's involved in, say, OpenDoc/Cyberdog, has 5%, maybe 10%, of *that*, so, who *cares*? Potential Mac crypto developers aren't effecting that many people at *all*. They would better spend their time doing CryptoJava++ or something, because there's *much* more market penetration *there*. Or, even better, developers should go do CAPI for Windows. I mean, that's where the *real* money is, right? So fergadaboudit, go write CAPI-code, I mean, Microsoft Gets The Internet Now, right? At least there'll be *active* developer support from the MotherShip, which is better than whatcha get from Apple ferchrissakes . But, as bad as all this is, lack of strong crypto is not nearly that much of a Mac-Killer, or more to the point, an Apple-Killer. (Love the Machine, Hate the Company, remember?) What's killing Apple is Apple's sclerotic management style, and, frankly, too much living high off the hog when margins were fat. Of course, you never know. Apple could just keep cranking out more and more machines, at smaller and smaller market shares, ad infinitum. Look at Porsche (remember Ferry Porsche and what a "disaster" the Volkswagen was?), or Rolls-Royce. Personally, I would bet that, *if* the Sclerotic Apple scenario's the case, then jumping with both feet into crypto, and by extension, financial cryptography and digital commerce, could add a few more years to Apple's lifetime, but all that money might just go straight to Apple's waistline *anyway* (at 360lbs soaking wet, *I* should talk...), and make the end, if it occurs, even that much more grotesque. ( Yeah, but what a way to go... Fat Power! ;-)) And, yet, Vinnie's probably going to fill the room on September 5th and 6th. Hell, he might even fill Chuck-E-Cheese to boot. How come? Because, even though the market share is small, there's just enough there to support the small developers who made the Mac a great machine in the first place. There's a guy in Germany named Ruf. I still think he's around. Don't ask me how to say his name. What he does is buy brand-new Porsche 911s, fresh from the factory, and "blueprints" them. That is, he takes them all apart, down to the nuts and bolts, and rebuilds them *exactly* to the original design specifications, remachining metal where necessary. You can imagine that, with Porsches, there isn't much tolerence for production errors to begin with, but blueprint them Mr. Ruf does. After he does that, he tweaks them with all the aftermarket go-fast stuff it's possible to cram onto the little 30-year-old 911 design, some of which he's invented himself. After he's done, they really do. Go fast, I mean. Usually, his tweaky stuff gets onto his cars, now sold under the "Ruf" brand name, *waay* before it gets adopted for production 911s. Mr. Ruf has been doing this for a long time. His cars go for twice or three times what a production 911 goes for, if you can imagine paying that much for a *very* fast Porsche 911. He has a very long waiting list. He sells, say, 10 cars a year. He makes out like a bandit. And he *loves* his job. There're a whole bunch of guys around Stuttgart who do this kind of stuff. And *they* love their jobs, too. That's why Vinnie's going to fill that room in Cupertino. (On the 5th and 6th of September, remember?) First of all, the developers who are left in the Mac market are there because they love it. The old guys, who, like me, can't get it up anymore, still hack Macs because they love them. The *new* developers hack Macs because they can't get leave it *alone* and don't know from market share anyway. They just love what they're doing. Mssrs. B & B aside, who *knows* what the women Mac developers feel, young or old, because I'm not one. Or a woman, for that matter. :-). But I *bet* they're there because *they* love the Mac, too. And, of course, *all* of the Mac crypto developers also understand the importance of strong cryptography to digital commerce, so they want to make sure the Mac has it, if they have to do it themselves, just like Mr. Ruf and his friends blueprint those brand-new Porsche 911s. So, finally, I'm going to pull out a dusty old story from the Disney Canon: Dumbo. Yes. The Dumbo story. Again. Remember that Dumbo had a magic feather, given to him by the crows, so that he could fly, which of course, he didn't really need, because he could fly already, he just didn't know it. Yes, boys and girls, Vinnie and the Mac crypto developers wanted, in fear of that 900-foot drop into a teeeny bucket of water, to have Yet Another Nameless Cypherpunk, A Piece of the True Crypto Cross, be a magic feather. So they could fly. Well, it looks like Vinnie, and all those room-filling Chuck-E-Cheese- Gopher-Banging Mac crypto developers will have to use their ears (or what's between them, anyway) to fly instead. Only this time, Dumbo's got a sack of grenades. A "munition" indeed... Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgbH1PgyLN8bw6ZVAQGkrQP9GyrOI9NWlookyXQdbfdjmC437fxNbQuQ g3CHsGMi4uhqO1UO6dF71XO7Osh57n//cVKF52Tv3b2UpOU3khtj15ASH7sOLaMs KwDQYvNta1I/nL1k9L8mAnNUfEdkttfhqgKjDwB5nKvwwJqbOemG60Bz6jKzCO5T cXOXOcEVyLE= =Fjkr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From zachb at netcom.com Tue Aug 6 00:11:17 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Zach Babayco) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:11:17 +0800 Subject: viruss' In-Reply-To: <3205B2F7.7E74@cnmnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Zero Cool wrote: > Does anyone know where thre is good virus page???? > I know that there is one out there, but dont have the add. > Zero Cool > Do a web search for the word VIRUS and try posting this somewhere else - this isn't a virus newsgroup, last time I checked. From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 6 00:23:11 1996 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:23:11 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <9608052116.AA09050@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <199608060242.TAA18997@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 05 Aug 96, hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: >The shells are removed sometime or other. Nothing is a 100% solution >but anything that gives the criminal an extra thing to worry about >improves the chances that a mistake is made. > >Many people go to jail because of fingerprints on shell cases. If the shell cases are NOT left at the crime scene, there is NO link between them and the crime. You are suffering from cranio-rectal inversion. >I doubt that more than 32 bits of info will be required. Thats not >that difficult to imprint. [snip] >Not a problem, that type of machinery is a standard type of >industrial machine. Might be expensive to adapt the lines but >I doubt it. That doesn't address the fact that (1) there are billions of unstamped shell casing extant, (2) stamping the side of a case will weaken it and be a significant safety hazard, (3) stamps in the head of the case can be filed/scraped off, (4) cases not left at the crime scene have no value as evidence, regardless of any serial stamps, extractor marks, etc. Even if you can prove a shell was fired in a particular gun, if there is no link between that gun and the crime, the "evidence" is worthless. You are suffering from cranio-rectal inversion. >Not an issue. A person may have an excuse that explains why >the blood is in his car or his fingerprints are on the knife but >a conviction depends on more than one piece of evidence. If >there is information that gives the police a lead it is >usefull. See above. You are suffering from cranio-rectal inversion. >At present the police are investigating the purchase of white >powder - checking each purchaser out who fits the Olympic >bomber profile. That is a lot of work for a much weaker lead. That's BLACK powder, stupid! Also, profiling a bomber requires more than one crime. A profile is a psychological analysis of the patterns in a criminal's handiwork, and patterns cannot be clearly deliniated with a single crime. >If a person says that they fired at a range then you have >narrowed the search scope to the guys at the range. Huh? Smoke another one, Beavis! >Not a problem, thats an opportunity. I build very large, very >high reliability computer systems. I can build machines that >deal with several million transactions a day for less than a >million and run them for less than a quarter million a year. That >is cheap when one considers the cost of investigation saved. Yeah, and lets make it mandatory for everyone to accept subcutaneous transponder implants monitored by your system. Can anyone say BIG Brother? Regardless of the system, some poor schmuck (or an army of them) is going to have to do the data entry work for your computer, or it is worthless. Remember the GIGO concept? >Making that argument defeats your case. Irespective of the framers >of the constitution nobody in Congress or the Administration believes >that you have a right to take up arms against the government. In >fact they are scared of the militia movement and the NRA. Every time >you make that argument you make it harder for people to accept your >case. The fact that the current government despises the intent of the people who wrote the Constitution and tries to circumvent and negate it to the maximum extent possible is the root of much of the disillusionment with and distrust of government in America today. >Its like hearing a Marxist spout stuff from Capital to support a >civil liberties. Regardless of wether the content makes sense the >form of the argument is a complete turn off. > >I used to side with HCI before I started talking to the >talk.politics.guns people. That convinced me that they were a threat >to the security of the country - even before McVeigh sent me a >mail defending his 2nd ammendment rights that looked very >much like yours. Regardless of whether he is guilty or not I >still regard him and those that hold his views to be as >serious a threat to the USA as the Red Army Faction were in >Germany, or the Red Brigades in Italy or the IRA in the UK. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than Tim McVeigh's guns. >If people carelessly justify terrorism they are fueling that >fire. Up until now the US has not had a serious terrorist >problem. If terrorism becomes widespread then don't imagine >the constitution will be a protection. Thomas and Reinquist >are not going to stop measures to "protect the nation" even >if like the WWII internement of Japaneese nationals they are in >gross violation of the constitution. > >If you think the wiretap bill is bad think on this, all guns >of all types banned except where held by special license. >Checkpoints at major road intersections. Stop and search >patrols in city centers and the army on the street. Its not >at all far fetched, the UKgovt took less than a year to >introduce such measures in Northern Ireland. Constitution or >not, don't expect that the US Congress won't make a similar >response. See my sigfile. These are shining examples illustrating why an armed populace is critical to freedom, even if some people do misuse firearms. I would rather be armed and take my chances against a crackhead looking for someone to mug than be disarmed and take my chances against government thugs who have discovered that they can act against the populace with impunity. Jonathan Wienke "1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" --Adolf Hitler "46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." --The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm 1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.? Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB From jim at ACM.ORG Tue Aug 6 00:37:05 1996 From: jim at ACM.ORG (Jim Gillogly) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:37:05 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608060523.WAA04715@mycroft.rand.org> Simon Spero writes: >one silly thought: lots of people use cypherpunks as the username and >password for all those websites that want an id. What about a cypherpunks >3-2-4 number for those cases where an SSN isn't appropriate. Anyone know >what J. Edgar Hoover's SSN was? Yes, that does indeed sound silly. BTW, the UNABOMer's secret ID number, used to identify various communications with the NYT as being his, is reported (Mad Genius and a government deposition) to be 553-25-4394, which allegedly turned out to be the SSN of a prisoner somewhere in California. I suppose it's not useful for this application, since it belongs to somebody who might need it again sometime. Jim Gillogly 14 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 05:21 From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Tue Aug 6 00:48:18 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:48:18 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806010151.008f8f48@panix.com> Message-ID: one silly thought: lots of people use cypherpunks as the username and password for all those websites that want an id. What about a cypherpunks 3-2-4 number for those cases where an SSN isn't appropriate. Anyone know what J. Edgar Hoover's SSN was? --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu Tue Aug 6 00:51:45 1996 From: hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu (hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:51:45 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <199608060242.TAA18997@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <9608060554.AA01285@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Contrary to reports of some sort of inversion it is not the case that shell cases need to be found at the scene of a crime to cause an arrest and conviction. There are many people who are serving time after having left their fingerprints on shell cases found in a gun recovered after a crime. If the gun can be linked to a crime scene via balistics reports and the shells in the gun to an individual via fingerprints that is circumstansial evidence. Of course nobody gets sent to jail on a single piece of questionable evidence (at least if they have a decent lawyer). But a weak piece of evidence is sufficient to lead to a conviction if it is a lead. Anything that reduces the search space for an investigating team is an advantage for the police. Phill From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 6 01:01:28 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:01:28 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <9608052116.AA09050@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: Phil, The Japanese were not interned in the State of Kansas. The people wouldn't permit it and the FBI just quietly backed down. The Nazis couldn't enforce the Yellow Star in Denmark. The people wouldn't permit it. I can't speak about what people in the UK will permit. If they're all like you, they'll permit anything. Oh the Administration and the Congress don't agree that we have a right to defend our freedoms, if necessary, against them? I work in a military base in the heartland, not a computer lab in Cambridge - and I think you're wrong about that - I don't think you could get enough American troops to perticipate in disarming innocent civilians. And the Congress and the Administration DO know it and are scared to death of it. Anyway, Phil, I was trying to ask your opinion about something.... Is there any freedom for which you would personally risk your life for? From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 6 01:15:07 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:15:07 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <9608060607.AA01332@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: > Several years ago the IRA attempted to murder my cousin. I have been > warned not to continue my political activity but I do so regardless. > > I do not advocate the bringing of troops onto the streets but I see > it as the logicial response to the case put by the NRA. They are > playing a tune I have heard before. Claim to stand for freedom while > doing whatever is possible to encourage restriction of liberty. I have added you to my computerized list of individuals who advocate the violent overthrow of the US Constitution. I am going to go to the law library and see what my options are, with respect to filing a petition to have you deported out of the United States. This is not a rhetorical statement. From remailer at cypherpunks.ca Tue Aug 6 01:16:43 1996 From: remailer at cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:16:43 +0800 Subject: PGP public key servers are NOT useful! In-Reply-To: <199608052141.QAA15347@bluestem.prairienet.org> Message-ID: <199608060552.WAA04209@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> "David E. Smith" writes: > Over the last couple of weeks, I've noticed a lot > of subscribers who PGP clearsign their messages, > but who haven't uploaded their keys to any of > the public keyservers. > > Those keys are most useful when they're > available to people who might want to use them, > so I'm asking those of you who haven't sent > them to a keyserver to do so. I, for one, make it a point of never using the PGP public key servers. I make my key available by finger, and always check for people's keys through finger. The problem with the PGP public key servers is that one has absolutely no control over what gets uploaded there in one's own name. If someone really wanted to prevent me from using PGP, for example, that person could just upload 500 different PGP keys to the key servers all with my E-mail address as the key ID. Even if you already have a PGP key of someone you trust who has certified my key, are you really going to verify all 500 other keys until you find the one that is certified by the real trusted person? Moreover, what's to stop someone from downloading my key, adding an ID "kkk grand wizard", signing it with a fake "David Duke" key, and uploading the new signature to the PGP servers. I don't want anyone to be able to put such things on my PGP key in the place where most people will go looking for it first. Deleting a key from a PGP key server is probably even more difficult than getting an error corrected on your credit report. Even if one keyserver deletes it, it will probably end up propagating there again from another server. The finger approach is far from perfect, because not everyone can run a finger daemon accessible to the net at large. Moreover, even people with PGP keys in their .plan files often can't be fingered at their mail hubs (in fact, people often receive E-mail at addresses which are only DNS "MX records" which don't have corresponding IP addresses). Thus, I'm not saying finger is the solution. However, at least people have control over the plausible PGP key finger locations in a way that fits sensibly with the key ID's sought. In other words, if I have absolutely no affiliation with Berkeley, I should not be able to stick a PGP key with an ID ending "<.. at cs.berkeley.edu>" where people will primarily look for such keys. (Of course I'm welcome put the key any other place I have access to.) Note finally that the key distribution problem addressed by the key servers has nothing to do with key certification. I think one of PGP's greatest strenghts is that anyone can certify any one else's public key. I hate the idea of a hierarchical system where you might have to pay $20 and wait 3 days to get a public key (Verasign I gather does this for SSL certificates, though the cost/wait are probably completely different). Thus, while I'm advocating some kind of hierarchical key distribution mechanism, I absolutely don't want to see that kind of structure imposed on key certification. In fact, the key distribution problem is just the opposite of key certification in that one wants to prevent unwanted certificates and keys from being interpreted as condoned by the supposed owner of the PGP key. Even if my key really was certified by someone a year ago, if I've now forgotten the passphrase I don't want to keep having people grab my old key. I also don't want random attacks on my character appended to my PGP key where most people will seek it. Finally, for those who desire the "light security" of encrypting with my PGP public key even though they can't verify any of the certificates (and I do get plenty of such PGP-encrypted mail), it might be nice to have a system in place that at least required an active network attack to bypass. You might argue that this would be worse as it would encourage more people to use untrusted PGP keys. However, consider SSH's mechanism whereby it acquires public keys automatically at first and then keeps verifying the keys on subsequent sessions. It's not perfect, but I think it definitely improves the security of the situation. Anyway, if the NSA started mounting massive active attacks from the internet backbones, we would at least find out about it soon enough. [Posted anonymously to prevent some wise guy from getting the brilliant idea of uploading 500 fake PGP keys in my name...] From alano at teleport.com Tue Aug 6 01:44:03 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:44:03 +0800 Subject: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806062542.00a47d1c@mail.teleport.com> At 03:48 PM 8/5/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Does anyone know what the equivalent technology is on Microsoft to >Netscape's cookie technology? Does Microsoft have support for cookies or >not? Internet exploder 3.0 supports cookies. >All of the discussion on the list to do with >cookies is related to Netscape. Does this mean that if one switches to >Microsoft Explorer one can avoid the problem? Many thanks. There is no escape. Resistance is futile. You will be server pushed, filed, tracked, counter digited, and numbered. You are not a free individual, you are an IP address assigned from a dynamic pool. Be seeing you! --- |"Computers are Voodoo -- You just have to know where to stick the pins."| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From blane at aa.net Tue Aug 6 01:54:45 1996 From: blane at aa.net (Brian C. Lane) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:54:45 +0800 Subject: ****Tacoma, Washington Starts Taxing Internet Access 07/30/96 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960805181729.00e8c4a0@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <3206e54a.46270083@mail.aa.net> On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 11:17:29 -0700, you wrote: >At 05:42 AM 8/5/96 -1000, NetSurfer wrote: >> >>On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote: >> >>> >>> >WASHINGTON, DC, U.S.A., 1996 JUL 30 (NB) -- By Bill Pietrucha. >>> >Tacoma, Washington, has just gained the distinction of being the >>> >only municipality in the United States to tax Internet Access >>> >providers (IAPs) like telephone service providers. >>> > > >I believe the reason the Tacoma ordinance is getting so much flack is that >they are wanting to charge sales tax on all transactions that take place >from ISPs in Tacoma. > >This type of taxation is not new. Various jurisdictions have tried to use >the same thing on mail order houses. Having worked for a service bureau >that dealt with mail order, I know what a hassle it is to try to keep track >of such taxation. There is a company that will sell you the data of all of >the sales tax rates throughout the country. This includes every little >podunk city, county, and fire district tax. They are divided by zip code, >but that is no guarantees that you have the right place. The reality is that >trying to "be legal" under such regulations is next to impossible, even with >the proper data. I know of few mail order firms that are willing to go to >that extreme. (Unless, of course, they have gotten the proper threats from >some miffed tax baron.) > >And they wonder why there is so much disrespect for the law... >--- >Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction > `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key > http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ > "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon > "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." > > ------- -------------------- ------- Embedded Systems Programmer, quick hacks on request, CryptoAnarchist ============== 11 99 3D DB 63 4D 0B 22 15 DC 5A 12 71 DE EE 36 ============ From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 6 02:02:03 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:02:03 +0800 Subject: More to be paranoid about... Message-ID: <199608060636.XAA29816@mail.pacifier.com> At 01:50 PM 8/4/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 10:14 PM 8/3/96 -0700, you wrote: >>Take a look at: >> http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates >>Feed it an Oregon licence plate number and it will feed you back all sorts >>of info about the person/victim. > >It's interesting to know that Senator Hatfield's wife's birthday >is 1/17/29, and that the title to the car is held with a >security interest by the US SENATE EMPLOYEES FEDERAL CREDIT, >and that (at least) Social Security Numbers weren't listed >for the plates I checked. Also that, unlike many states, >the Governor doesn't have License Plate #1. It turns out that I am indirectly (two steps removed) responsible for this information being publicized on the 'net. I bought a copy of a CDROM that included this data (from a person who bought this data from the State of Oregon on magtape), and a friend of mine got a copy from me and made a copy for his friend, who decided to put it on the web as an accessible item. In any case, contrary to Alan Olsen's implication, I think that this kind of thing is a step forward for freedom. Government agencies already have access to this kind of information whenever they want; it's only the individuals who don't. Indeed (as my friend pointed out, correctly) this information is only considered valuable because not everyone has it. Making this information available puts government-types under the same "gun" as the rest of us already were. It is now being seen that driver's licenses, while ostensibly merely being a certification that we know how to drive, are most useful to government as a way to "legitimately" collect information on us, including our address and age. Since the function of credentialing is being implemented using encryption in ways to protect privacy, I suggest that we should push the government in that direction. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From alano at teleport.com Tue Aug 6 02:18:51 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:18:51 +0800 Subject: Credit Cards over the internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806064420.00af96e8@mail.teleport.com> At 02:46 PM 8/5/96 -0800, Vinnie Moscaritolo wrote: >Just read a forwarded message from a merchant who indicated that: {credit card hastles deleted] I have been having some similar hastles setting up a site for credit card usage. It seems that the credit card companies are confused between protecting cards over the net and validating credit card information. (Two entirly different problems.) The broker we are going through seems to have gotten a few clues, but it is taking ALOT of explaining. (The site will be running Stronghold when we are able to process credit cards. We are currently running Apache 1.1.) Actually I am having a harder time getting through to the sysadmin at the host site why we need a commerce server than I am with the credit card company... It sounds like the scare stories on the news have taken their toll. --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From jsw at netscape.com Tue Aug 6 02:21:33 1996 From: jsw at netscape.com (Jeff Weinstein) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:21:33 +0800 Subject: Stealth cookies In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806003319.00a5a274@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: <3206EFF8.6238@netscape.com> John F. Fricker wrote: > Solution? > > 1) Don't put your name in the netscape configuration (d'oh) No, no, no. Netscape navigator does not reveal your name or put it into cookies. The only way to get your name or other personal information about you into a cookie is for you to type it into a web site, and have that site send you back a cookie. The only time we reveal your name is in e-mail headers, and when doing anonymous FTP when you have manually disabled the default of sending 'mozilla@' as the anon ftp password. --Jeff From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Tue Aug 6 02:30:12 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:30:12 +0800 Subject: The futility of trying to "tag" ammunition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >> US it is not unreasonable to require each individual cartridge > >> to be stamped with a serial number and for gun dealers to be How about just numbering the criminals? There's more room for the numbers, there's precedent, and less specialized equipment is required. ;) From gnu at toad.com Tue Aug 6 02:32:08 1996 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:32:08 +0800 Subject: Looking for CJ's or State Dept. correspondence re "public domain" Message-ID: <199608060718.AAA11804@toad.com> We got a brief last week from the State Department in the Bernstein case (in which we're trying to overturn the crypto export controls on First Amendment grounds). They state: "In fact, the State Department does not seek to control the various means by which information is placed in the public domain. Lowell Decl, para. 22. The Department does not review scientific information to determine whether it may be offered for sale at newsstand and bookstores, through subscriptions, second-class mail, or made available at libraries, or distributed at a conference or seminar in the United States. Id. "These clear examples are included in the ITAR to enable individuals to determine for themselves whether particular information is subject to regulation as technical data. Indeed, individuals rarely -- if ever -- seek a determinatino from the Department as to whether information is in the public domain, and the regularions are not applied to establish a prepublication review requirement for the general publication of scientific information in the United States." I am wondering if anyone else has ever sent in a CJ request that sought to determine whether the item in question was considered "public domain" by the State Department. Several CJ's of this type can be found near the bottom of my crypto export web page, at ftp://ftp.cygnus.com/pub/export/export.html. Has anyone else had interactions with the State Department about the "public domain" status of anything? Please let me know. -- John Gilmore gnu at toad.com -- gnu at eff.org RESTRICTED Notice. - This document contains information affecting the national defense of the United States within the meaning of the Espionage Act (U.S.C. 50: 31, 32). The transmission of this document or the revelation of its contents in any manner to any unauthorized person is prohibited. From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 6 02:52:41 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:52:41 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: [Note: My analysis of Apple Computer, and why I will not give a "pep talk" to certain Apple Macintosh folks, is contained at the _end_ of this piece. Skip forward if you like, or read my response to Bob H. to get the background on why I am posting this.] At 4:20 AM 8/6/96, Robert Hettinga wrote: [much stuff elided] >All of which brings up the *real* point of this rant. I mean, who *cares* if >you can do crypto on the Mac or not? Why not stand back and watch the >MacRubble bounce? > >My thinking about all of this started because I've been reading Vinnie's >mail over his shoulder. (Yes. I'm shameless. When we're working on stuff >together, we trade our mail about it. As they say in the Mac biz, "Sosumi".) >That is, Vinnie's been out there scaring up speakers for this shindig that >he "borrowed" the grenades for, and, well, in his tree-shaking (God help you >if Vinnie shakes a tree you're in), he invites (if you could call what >Vinnie sent an invitation :-)) Yet *Another* Nameless Cypherpunk (YANC) to >come and give us what we hope would be a Patented Colorful Cypherpunk >crypto-Peptalk, with Vinnie saying to him (YANC), in effect, we need him >(YANC) for a proper Laying-On of Hands, him being a Piece of the True Crypto >Cross, and all. I have to assume you are referring to me, as I had an exchange with Vinnie which resembles this. As you were given "over the shoulder" access to mail I sent to Vinnie, by all accounts, I certainly will have no qualms forwarding my correspondence on this issue to this list. >Of course, Vinnie didn't stand a chance. If we *could* consider Vinnie for >it, (which we can't, because he's on the selection committee) he might have >earned the coveted 1996 Black Rhino "Mr. Kevlar" award (for courage in the Oh, he "had a chance." He just wasn't very persuasive. And given that I don' think crypto needs to be tied to the Macintosh platform (which is dead, even though it hasn't yet topped over, and even though people like me continue to use it), more is needed than "We need you." I'm not big on charity, and Apple is truly a charity case. >face of imaginary gunfire) for his efforts. Actually, considering the, heh, >caliber, of last year's winner, it's just as well. A, uh, bang-up job Mr. >Weinstein of Netscape did last year. A hard one to top. And so, the search >continues. Both for this year's "Mr. Kevlar", and, of course, for some other >Piece of the True Cross. Or so we think. I'll get to that in a moment. > >What Vinnie got from Yet Another Nameless Cypherpunk, instead of "Yes, I'll >come talk about crypto, the universe, and everything.", was Yet Another >Rendition of the Apple Macintosh Massacree. In six-part ;-) harmony, of >course. And, no, I won't sing it here in its 21-minute (not even 17 for Clever writing, to some, but empty of calories. My "Massacree" will be included at the end of this message. Judge for yourself. >radio) entirety. However, I should really note here that no matter how >reasoned and cogent YANC's arguments were (and cogent they were, too: upon >reading them, I was halfway to the dumpster with my trusty old PB180, >tears in my eyes, before I came to my senses), in general, one of the *big* >reasons that Vinnie got the $0$AD ($ame Old $ong And Dance) Re the Future of >the Mac as a Viable Platform was probably more because the aforementioned >YANC has eschewed speaking opportunities like this for years anyway, and >Vinnie probably didn't ask him with the Proper Deference Necessary for a >Cypherpunk of That Stature. In fact, I *know* Vinnie didn't, because I read >his mail ;-). However, that, of course, wasn't why YANC gave Vinnie the >aforementioned Massacree in particular. Your future as a mind reader, Bob, is limited. It is true that I avoid some speaking engagements which appear to be "hype" and "pep talks." But I also have elected to give a few talks, incuding one in Monte Carlo which took me several weeks to prepare for, and one at CFP '95, arranged by our own Prof. Michael Froomkin. >YANC Massacreed Vinnie because there's a lot of *very* disappointed Mac >users out there, YANC being a prominent example thereof. Love the computer. >Hate the company. Hell hath no fury like a Mac user (not to mention >shareholder) scorned. Heck. I understand *that*. I did the *same* thing just >over a year ago this week. "Platforms are Meat", and all that. For what it's >worth, YANC, I *feel* your pain... :-). I'm not sure what you're drinking, but you might want to lay off for a few hours before sitting down to write. >So, I repeat, why *not* stand back and let the MacRubble bounce? No, this is >not a segue for me to stand up in my chair and start singing the Apple >Company Song at the top of my lungs, complete with a QuickDraw-VR DOOM >environment file of One Infinite Loop right up there on the screen for y'all >to marvel at and play with using your very own Newtons, all while I sing 100 >Company Song verses with a six-part MIDI chorus of my own voice (Yechhh!). >Nope. Not me. Indeed, I really *do* say, "Why not?". That is, let's look at >what happens if people *don't* develop crypto for the Mac. > >The truth is folks, not much. I agree. Not much to be done about Apple. Too bad, but it's not something I can do much about. I've known some of the early Apple folks since 1977, and first invested in them in 1984. (Though I sold 90% of my stock in Apple a year or so ago, at $45, well above its current level.) In 1986, upon my departure from Intel, I bought a Macintosh Plus, the closest thing I could afford to a Symbolics 3600. (Interesting note: a friend of mine said she just saw an ad for a Symbolics: $100 takes it away. Except for the likelihood that it would cost far more per month to run it, I'd buy it. Maybe I still will....) Then I bought a Mac IIci, a Powebook 100, a Powerbook 170, and then a Power Macintosh 7100av. Mostly I've been happy, as I had access to a windows environment (before Microsoft tried to patent the name "windows"), visual metaphor (a la my Symbolics), and an adequate supply of programs, including: Excel, Photoshop, Painter, Eudora, etc., all of which made their appearance on Macs before on Windows. However, the same windows/Lisp machine/Xerox/Smalltalk appearance which Apple stole from the Xerox and MIT machines is now available in robust form in the form of Windows NT machines, with huge market share and incredible performance. (I am "loyal" to the computing metaphor, not to the current market Apple has.) >First of all, we all think it'll be Real Bad News for Apple Real Soon >if real-live strong cryptography isn't shoved as far down as it's possible >to make it go into the Mac's operating system, and right now, dammit. But, As my message to Vinnie (below) points out, Apple blew a couple of chances it has to incorporate crypto and security. For one, it announced some sort of System 7 signature system...like a lot of Apple announcements, nothing more was heard of it and it today merits not even the slightest footnote. Second, Apple could've _owned_ the "Internet telephony" market which Intel (!!!!!) is now touting so highly: Macintosh AC models (660av. 640av, all PowerMacs) had extensive audio in/out capabilities, with DSP or CPU powers sufficient to implement secure teleconferencing. Instead, we got me-too products like "E-World," a now-defunct proprietary version of Prodigy, and countless other "detour" products, including OpenTransport, GeoPort, speech recognition (which doesn't really work, at least not on my $5K Mac), the Newton, and endless catchily-named Apple products. >so *what*? The Mac's only, say, 5-7% of the computer market anyway, and the >only possibly new, cool, stuff Apple's involved in, say, OpenDoc/Cyberdog, >has 5%, maybe 10%, of *that*, so, who *cares*? Potential Mac crypto >developers aren't effecting that many people at *all*. They would better >spend their time doing CryptoJava++ or something, because there's *much* >more market penetration *there*. Or, even better, developers should go do >CAPI for Windows. I mean, that's where the *real* money is, right? So >fergadaboudit, go write CAPI-code, I mean, Microsoft Gets The Internet Now, >right? At least there'll be *active* developer support from the MotherShip, >which is better than whatcha get from Apple ferchrissakes a mysteriously appearing grenade fusilade from Vinnie's general direction. >Can someone tell me *how* he pulls the pins and throws them all at once >like that?>. Bob, your rants lose effect when mixed with this Hunter S. Thompsonesque writing style (" That's why Vinnie's going to fill that room in Cupertino. (On the 5th and >6th of September, remember?) First of all, the developers who are left in >the Mac market are there because they love it. The old guys, who, like me, >can't get it up anymore, still hack Macs because they love them. The *new* >developers hack Macs because they can't get leave it *alone* and don't know >from market share anyway. They just love what they're doing. Well, if you "can't get it up anymore," to use your words, maybe it's time for you to move on to something else? >Well, it looks like Vinnie, and all those room-filling Chuck-E-Cheese- >Gopher-Banging Mac crypto developers will have to use their ears (or what's >between them, anyway) to fly instead. > >Only this time, Dumbo's got a sack of grenades. Well, good luck. For me, giving a pep talk to a bunch of tired old Mac developers at a Chuck-E-Cheese--especially when I went to the first one, in San Jose, in 1977-78--does not excite me in the slightest. After all, it's not as if Apple people cannot come to the Bay Area Cypherpunks meetings (I know of only one current Apple employee on our mailing list, actively, or who attends meetings: Martin Minow). I refuse to accept any burden of guilt for not volunteering to speak for 30 minutes at a conference which is poorly-defined to me and which would cover material the attendees could get by subscribing to our list for a few days or weeks or by attending a physical Cypherpunks meeting in the Valley. I'm sorry (for Vinnie, never for me) that Vinnie is pissed off at me for not helping out at his Let's Save Apple conference, and that Bob feels it necessary to rant about this Mysterious Cypherpunk who won't Help the Cause. Life is tough. I'm available as a consultant, of course, and Apple is, as always, free to hire me as a consultant. Attached below is my major response to Vinnie. I would not have raised the issue here on this list, except for Bob's post. Take it or leave it. --Tim At 9:52 PM 7/23/96, Vinnie Moscaritolo wrote: >Cut the Bullshit, Tim; I normally don't respond to anyone who tells me to "Cut the Bullshit," "Knock it off," etc. In fact, I deleted your message as soon as I saw this....then a few minutes later I elected to retrieve it from Eudora's trash folder before I had emptied the Trash. I'll respond here, but not to "dammits" and "Knock it offs." If you want to calmly discuss things, fine. Otherwise, I'll just add you to my filter file. No harm done. >I am having to pull teeth and do this a guerilla effort, but dammit If I >have to do it alone I will. SO DONT GIVE ME THIS "I was not welcome on the >list" crap, what I am trying to avoid is folks like dave weiner. who >just bitch and dont offer any solutions. Most of what you say IS EDUCATED >and needs to be heard. Tim if you sent me a message saying you want to be >on the list, I would stop what I was doing and put you on in a second.. I'm not surprised you are having trouble pulling this together, for several good reasons: 1. Apple is struggling, developers are focussing on Windows. 2. Crypto for the Mac is really dependent on a couple of main apps: mail programs (Eudora, Claris E-Mailer, Lotus Notes, etc.) and Web browsers (obvious name here). If you want Apple to be "in the game" on crypto, as it clearly is not now, ask Claris why they are not supporting PGP or S/MIME. 3. And crypto is not really a "Macintosh" issue. The best programs are now platform-neutral. 4. A "guerilla" program, absent a compelling need, is likely to generate little support. 5. "Internet commerce" is indeed a Big Issue (and of course a massively hyped issue). But it is unlikely in the extreme that the Mac could ever be a central player...the focus is on Web browsers and other tools that represent 95% of what Web users have. (Don't tell me about CyberDog...less than 10% of the market has Macs, and probably less than 10% of them have installed CyberDog. I don't personally know any Mac users planning to use it. This may change, of course, but at this point its prospects are not too bright.) My point is simple: if your conference is the effective realization of the goals of your Mac-Crypto mailing list, as appears to be the case (at least to me), then I can't see how my discussion of political issues would be consistent with your insistence that Mac-Crypto avoid issues that don't involve coding. (And I would not welcome the attention I might get at Apple if I were to discuss what I know of "information liberation," including the NuPrometheus League.) Friends of mine have been called by P.I.s investigating this case.) >>No "solution" predominantly on the Mac is a solution for the masses, who >>are overwhelmingly using Windows today. (You surely know this...your >>company is struggling to hold 5-7% of the new sales figure; you haven't >>been above 10% for several years.) >> > >so why do YOU use a mac? or do you. I use a Mac, primarily these days to run Netscape, Eudora Pro, and a handful of related tools. None of these are Mac-specific anymore, and in fact the Mac is way behind in a lot of ways (e.g., automatic signing of messages). The Mac has perhaps 8-10% of the installed base, and something less than this in terms of new sales. Of this 10% (charitably), I doubt more than 10% has installed and used "CyberDog." So, perhaps 1% of users have access to this (at least at this time). (I don't know the % of Web sites hosted on Macs, but I know the Mac is coming under fire there, too. Lack of "multi-homing," lack of Unix-type robustness, and the power of NT servers, from what I read. In any case, Web site hosting is not a major point of confluence with crypto issues. I know Sameer Parekh and folks like him would laugh if anyone suggested they host their sites on a Mac.) I've watched with growing incredulity and confusion as Apple has gone off on tangents which seem to have little value to its core customers. Sure, some of these have succeeeded (QuickTime for one), but many are just tangents, at least for the dozen or so home Mac users I know. For example, OpenTransport, GeoPort, Publish and Subscribe, OpenDoc, Interactive Music Toolkit, the Speech recognition stuff, and so on. Not to mention expensive detours into the Newton. (I don't fault Apple for pursuing these things; it's hard to know what will be the Next Big Thing and all. What I fault them for is having a confusing array of add-ons to the basic OS, with lots of confusion about what the advantages are. I, for example, use plain old System 7.1.2, an external 28.8 modem, and fairly standard apps and tools. I see no need for GeoPorts, OpenTransport, or any of that stuff. And when Apple stopped bundling the System software with machines, and making upgrades free, and generating multiple versions of System 7.5x, well, this all made my glad to just sit all this confusion out.) Can Apple do anything to "help crypto"? Not a thing, as near as I can tell. Eudora is _still_ not putting PGP or S/MIME in in Eudora Pro 3.0, and Netscape is doing whatever it is doing (as you know). Thus, all I care about is what Qualcomm does with Eudora and what Netscape does with Navigator. I don't care about what Apple puts in CyberDog, as I have no immediate plans to use it as my browser or my mailer. I think I represent about 80% or more of all Macintosh users, too. >>I just don't see the point of trying to educate Apple people on something >>so far from what they need to be doing. >> > >Point is put up or shut up, I am giving you a chance to be heard, I dont >give a flying hoot what you say, except that you make people aware of the >issues. Tim dont you know that outside of cp very little is known about >crypto-anarchy. and what it mean.. hey even if you hate the very essence of >apple, (and I know your don't) you can helpbe part of the solution instead >of part of the problem... > > >so whats it gonna be. I don't buy this notion that I have to choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Nothing Apple can do really matters at this point, as they've lost the leadership role they once had and are increasingly "marginalized." Crypto tools are platform-independent, ideally. Unless crypto tools and algorithms are "built in" in some very usable way to Copland, say, there just is no role for Apple. Sure, you lean on Steve Dorner at Qualcomm to get crypto into Eudora in a more central way, and work with Netscape in some way, but not much else is to be done. (And Apple dropped the ball a couple of years ago with the "digital signature" stuff they announced...I forget the name, but it was some kind of certificate-based system, probably called something typically Apple-ish like "OpenCertification" or somesuch. I think it was introduced in 1994 or so, about the time the 660av and 840av were rolled out. Nothing more has ever come of it, not too surprisingly.) And speaking of the av-series machines, and the later PPC machines (of course), Apple blew it by not developing this as an "Internet phone" sort of thing. Here they have had av-compatible machines (speakers, microphones, DSP functionality) for a few years, and yet Microsoft and Intel are grabbing the headlines with "Internet phone" systems! Jeesh. (This is not something that talking to the bottom-level troops at a "crypto" meeting can do, this indicates the complete lack of vision at higher levels.) Apple consistently blows its lead, and is now becoming irrelevant. (I don't plan to switch, so long as my Web-centric apps continue to run and updates are provided. And I have too many thousands of dollars tied up in Mac hardware, including the usuals several gigs of disk, CD-R, laser printer, Powerbooks, etc. So, it'll be several years before I have to switch. But that sure doesn't mean I have to be a cheerleader for a probably doomed system. I first bought Apple stock the day after the Mac was unveiled, on January 25th, 1984, and added to my holdings over the years. I finally dumped 90% of my shares last fall, for $45. And I'm glad I did. There is nothing Apple people can do to "help crypto" at this time. And the only thing they can do to help Apple survive is to do just that, help it survive. As for what that might be, at this late date, I'm fresh out of ideas. You may think this is Apple-bashing. I avoid bashing Apple in public, as the issues and themes are well-known to all. But you have framed your note to me as a call for me to "put up or shut up," implying I have some duty to help Apple and the Macintosh succeed. I do not. I am available as a consultant, of course. I doubt Apple needs more more consultant advising it on corporate strategies, but this option is open to you. --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From bdurham at metronet.com Tue Aug 6 03:28:35 1996 From: bdurham at metronet.com (Brian Durham) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 18:28:35 +0800 Subject: FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS In-Reply-To: <199608051211.GAA26432@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Message-ID: <3206F8E4.2781@metronet.com> Anonymous wrote: > > FUCK YOU, SHITOPUNKS > DAVID STERNLIGHT Well, I guess I don't have to take the pledge now. Brian Durham From lyalc at zemail.com.au Tue Aug 6 03:47:40 1996 From: lyalc at zemail.com.au (lyal collins) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 18:47:40 +0800 Subject: Credit Cards over the internet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3207FC8B.477E@zemail.com.au> I agree it is over engineered, possibly in the wrong directions. There are other ways to avoid merchant never sees the cardholders card number, though - and a lot cheaper. lyal -- All mistakes in this message belong to me - you should not use them! From fair at cesium.clock.org Tue Aug 6 07:47:39 1996 From: fair at cesium.clock.org (Erik E. Fair (Time Keeper)) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 22:47:39 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: Just FYI, there is at least one other full-time Apple employee on this list. The previous digital signature stuff from Apple was part of PowerTalk, our own attempt to do an E-mail system as part of the base OS. We licensed the crypto stuff from RSA (as did Lotus and a bunch of others at about the same time). PowerTalk had good goals (full digital signatures, encrypted mail, etc), but an exceedingly bad plan for getting there (completely proprietary file formats and protocols, and incompletely fleshed out APIs for getting at them). Needless to say, it was a flop in the market, and we've let everyone know that we've stopped development of it. Fortunately, we still have that RSA license, and we may yet be able to do something useful with it before either the license or the patent expires. I keep pressing people about these issues when I get the chance, internally. I haven't made any of the face-to-face meetings of the Cypherpunks because I have been busy frying other fish since I got on the list. I post from this odd return address because I prefer to use my private system and domain for cypherpunks. At work, I'm Erik E. Fair Apple Research Labs (nee Advanced Technology Group) From shamrock at netcom.com Tue Aug 6 11:44:55 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 02:44:55 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: At 0:20 8/6/96, Robert Hettinga wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Robert, you *really* need to cut back on that Ritalin. No, not just `one more'. Put it *away*. Now! ;-) -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From mclow at owl.csusm.edu Tue Aug 6 11:45:31 1996 From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 02:45:31 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806044723.01073e4c@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: At 9:47 PM -0700 8/5/96, John F. Fricker wrote: >Hmmm. Actually a long time ago I lost my job with Greenpeace out of refusal >to sign an I-9 which was in '86 the Department of Justice's form to exhibit >eligibility to work in the US. The form required that I present two pieces >of photo identification or a driver's license to be authenticated by my >employer. Maybe it's a CA state law that adds an additional skin tone >criterium to for the filing of an I-9. > I have found that promising to provide the necessary docs, and then failing to do so, is the least confrontational and most effective way around this. "Delay is the deadliest form of denial" -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems "We're not gonna take it/Never did and never will We're not gonna take it/Gonna break it, gonna shake it, let's forget it better still" -- The Who, "Tommy" From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 6 11:52:49 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 02:52:49 +0800 Subject: Digital Telephony costs $2 Message-ID: <199608060636.XAA29824@mail.pacifier.com> At 01:50 PM 8/4/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >One advantage of higher-speed modems is that you can get away with >16kbps ADPCM coding, which is dirt-simple computationally; >your 386 probably has enough horsepower to do it, though a PC's >interrupt structure may make it tough to shove all the data in and >out in real time. You still need a sound card that'll do the >A/D and D/A conversion simultaneously if you want full-duplex; >that wasn't part of the original market vision of Soundblaster, >so vanilla sound cards don't all do it. What is unclear, however, is WHY they "had to" build a card that couldn't do full-duplex. I mean, would there have been a problem implementing that? Or was this just another one of those stupid design decisions which could have been easily fixed if it had been realized in time? > It also has the advantage >that the data is being moved through your CPU, so encryption is >an easy add-on, rather than having one combined modem/voiceblaster >card which doesn't have any hooks for crypto or other processing. Well, I assume that if implemented as a new type of modem card, the processor can be used to do the data transfer. > >>Sure, it may not be necessary to compress voice audio all the way down to >>2400 bps, since the current modem standards allow 28.8kbps and beyond, but I >>suggest that decreasing net traffic by a factor of 12 (28.8k to 2.4k) is a >>desirable goal. > >One problem is that tighter compression methods are far more sensitive >to network latency than crude ones, and need to process more milliseconds >of speech before putting out a packet on the net (e.g. a 64-byte tinygram >is 200ms of speech at 2400bps, vs. 32ms at 16kbps.) For modem-to-modem >communications, this is no problem; for Internet random delays it is. I see what you're saying; this makes sense. Maybe what the industry is going to have to do is to start out at 16kpbs, reserving full 2400 bps compression for a (near?) future time when network latencies are low and predictable. >Also, another big difficulty with full-duplex transmission is that you >need echo-cancelling, especially with high-latency circuits. >Half-duplex is annoying, but it doesn't echo, and it's more tolerant >of delay because you're not expecting it to have natural timing... Fortunately, this is the kind of thing that DSP's are good at... >>The reason I think a system I've described has a future is that modem >>manufacturers have a PROBLEM. Their problem is that they've pretty much run >>out of room to improve the bit-pushing through a 3 KHz bandwidth. > >Given that the "3KHz" is almost universally transmitted over 64kbps >digital channels, there's really no point in pushing past 33.6 with >analog-based coding; better to just do ISDN. The local phonecos still want to overcharge for ISDN, however. Major bigtime problem. ISDN looked great back in about 1980 when the fastest common modem was 300 baud, but it's lost much of its lustre competing against 33.6 kbps. Maybe if ISDN were available at a premium of $5 per month or so... Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 6 14:18:26 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 05:18:26 +0800 Subject: Internet Economics Message-ID: <199608060643.XAA00161@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:15 PM 8/5/96 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 02:22 PM 8/5/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >>The current question is how to motivate individuals and companies to invest >>in improvements to the Internet that will benefit everyone. However, I don't >>think that will be the limiting factor that it may currently appear to be. >>Due to the nature of the Internet, there is nothing to prevent a company >>(such as AOL, Compuserve, or other) from building a shadow version of the >>Internet, through which all of its customer's traffic will pass until it >>emerges local to its destination. > >Note that this is the business model for @HOME which will be handling the >heavy lifting for various Internet Over Cable systems around the country. They'll need it. However, we can assume that POLDCs (Plain Old Long-Distance Companies) will fight back. The easiest thing for them to do would be to offer a single-payment-per-year, unlimited-use LD telephone service for maybe $10 per month or so. If, as various people have suggested, half the cost for LD is billing and customer service, they'll cut their costs by a factor of two and still make money. This would take the wind out of the sails of domestic LD; it is unclear whether foreign LD would follow suit. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From apb at iafrica.com Tue Aug 6 15:59:35 1996 From: apb at iafrica.com (Alan Barrett) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 06:59:35 +0800 Subject: Integrating PGP 3.0 Library with INN In-Reply-To: <199608051829.NAA19030@galaxy.galstar.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Igor Chudov wrote: > Has anyone thought of integrating PGP 3.0 library with INN? INN-1.5 will include a mechanism for PGP-authentication of control messages (newgroup, rmgroup, cancel, ...). My understanding is that ordinary (non-control) messages will not be authenticated at all by innd itself; that will still need to be done externally (by tools such as PGPMoose). --apb (Alan Barrett) From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Tue Aug 6 16:13:15 1996 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 07:13:15 +0800 Subject: crypto CD source In-Reply-To: <9608050810.AA04146@srzts100.alcatel.ch> Message-ID: <199608060504.GAA00115@server.test.net> Remo Pini writes: > My wish list: > > - - PGP > - - A lot of algorithms in C, Pascal, ASM (for diverse processors) > - - Private Idaho > - - Pronto Secure > - - a suite of html pages describing all files (I'll probably have to do that > myself) > - - Netscape (the secure versions, if its legally feasable -> Netscape?) > - - Crypto papers > - - Crypto analysis papers > - - Lawtexts concerning crypto (ITAR, France, ...) > > Anything else? Cypherpunks archive? http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/ The earlier archives were at www.hks.net, try mailing cactus at hks.net. sci.crypt, sci.crypt.research archive? Mirrors of: ftp.dsi.unimi.it http://www.cs.hut.fi/crypto/ ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto (plus Peter's collection). Adam -- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i Hello I'm looking to find information on which European countries ban the exportation of strong cryptography. Please reply to: anthony at direct.it Thanks in advance Anthony From aeisenb at duke.poly.edu Tue Aug 6 17:53:17 1996 From: aeisenb at duke.poly.edu (Anne Eisenberg) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 08:53:17 +0800 Subject: DoubleClick: Does is track browsing across multiple sites? Message-ID: Does anyone know whether DoubleClick really is tracking browsing patterns across multiple sites? They claim to be able to do this; is it just advertising hype, or does anyone have knowledge of its actually doing so? Many thanks. Anne Eisenberg aeisenb at duke.poly.edu From perry at alpha.jpunix.com Tue Aug 6 17:55:51 1996 From: perry at alpha.jpunix.com (John Perry) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 08:55:51 +0800 Subject: New type2.list/pubring.mix Message-ID: <199608061252.HAA01826@alpha.jpunix.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone! The new type2.list/pubring.mix files reflecting the disappearance of flame are now available by WWW from www.jpunix.com as well as by anonymous ftp from ftp.jpunix.com. - -- John Perry - perry at alpha.jpunix.com - PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry at jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgc/31OTpEThrthvAQEvvAP/Rs+vh7LDDbEdUkacVylsoBwHXTpfvV1l aHl7e8zt3CCueAgAXYbdHI2QPB7eptWpizlQxP3JAWB8/Z9SBzQBP/FxKIlVPKGa p//wvh+yiUHphBh/+6G3gtrkiGnYSXqgxvnwSLGnPNIdrXLnPMe66eTP4CW9E9ZD TC02uA9d9qw= =0Q+6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From snow at smoke.suba.com Tue Aug 6 17:55:59 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 08:55:59 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <9608052116.AA09050@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 1996 hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: > >weaken it). > I doubt that more than 32 bits of info will be required. Thats not > that difficult to imprint. You haven't spent a lot of time with guns & ammunition have you? The most common size round (from what I have seen) is a .22, .25s & .32s are also very common. That isn't a lot of room. > >government are in the Constitution. That's why the second amendment > >is there -- to empower the people to protect themselves against the > >government. > Making that argument defeats your case. Irespective of the framers > of the constitution nobody in Congress or the Administration believes > that you have a right to take up arms against the government. In It's the truth. If you can't stand the truth, get out of the gene pool. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From charlee at netnet.net Tue Aug 6 17:56:54 1996 From: charlee at netnet.net (kickboxer) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 08:56:54 +0800 Subject: test message Message-ID: <199608061646.LAA26121@netnet1.netnet.net> test From hallam at ai.mit.edu Tue Aug 6 17:59:25 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 08:59:25 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <4u6v5o$gt@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3207B8DD.794B@ai.mit.edu> Alan Horowitz wrote: > I have added you to my computerized list of individuals who advocate > the violent overthrow of the US Constitution. > > I am going to go to the law library and see what my options are, with > respect to filing a petition to have you deported out of the United > States. > > This is not a rhetorical statement. First off Alan posted private mail to the list. In this case mail that was more than simply personal. Secondly unless Alan withdraws his allegations I will bring proceedings against him for libel. While I accept his right to free speech I do not accept that he has a right to attempt to restrict mine with his threats of deportation. Phill Hallam-Baker From frissell at panix.com Tue Aug 6 17:59:42 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 08:59:42 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806103803.0090e254@panix.com> At 12:06 AM 8/6/96 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote: >I have found that promising to provide the necessary docs, and then failing to do so, is the least confrontational and most effective way around this. > >"Delay is the deadliest form of denial" Works for me as well. Likewise, self employment. DCF From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Tue Aug 6 18:01:28 1996 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:01:28 +0800 Subject: Where can I obtain code similar to the Anonymizer? Message-ID: <199608061540.IAA25410@sirius.infonex.com> I am looking to find code so I can set up a "re-webber" similar to www.anonymizer.com. I thank Sameer and c2.org for nicely putting a service like that up on the Net, and am willing to pay a fee if necessary for this code. If Sameer's code is not available, what is needed to do a "re-webber"? I apologize for my inexperience in this kind of stuff. Thanks very much in advance, From joelm at eskimo.com Tue Aug 6 18:08:05 1996 From: joelm at eskimo.com (Joel McNamara) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:08:05 +0800 Subject: Censorship through proxy Message-ID: <199608061625.JAA04294@mail.eskimo.com> SingNet, one of Singapore's larger ISPs is telling all of their subscribers they must move to using SingNet's proxy server by September 14, 1996 if they want to have access to the Web. If you try to access one of the SBA's banned sites, you'll get a message that says, "The site you requested is not accessible." Check out: http://www.singnet.com.sg/cache/sbareg.html It's interesting that in the blurb about the proxy server, they're marketing it as offering "better and faster performance" than not using it. From frissell at panix.com Tue Aug 6 18:14:58 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:14:58 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806100644.00911380@panix.com> At 07:37 PM 8/5/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >But the law says, these days, that I must verify the >legality of workers *if* they appear to be dark-skinned, Mexican, Latin, or >the like. I say "if" because there are no requirements in general for >white-skinned, Anglo workers....no work permits, no proofs of citizenship >(such a document is currently lacking in the American pantheon...I, a mixed >descendant of Mayflower colonist and Scandinavian immigrants, lack such >"proof"). Naughty naughty Tim. You're violating the Immigration Control and Nationality Act of 1986. You are supposed to check all employee's IDs even your own childrens' and fill out that I-9 form. You have to verify identity and right to work using a menu of documents ranging from passports and SS cards to Driver's licenses and "American Indian Tribal Documents" (I gotta get me some of them). And there are special provisions to punish discrimination against those who appear foreign. After all, there are loads of illegal Canadians and Irish here. People are always coming from the third world counties. The law also required that a commission study whether or not the "foreign appearing" were suffering discrimination because of the law and it reported a few years later that sure enough, they were. DCF From minow at apple.com Tue Aug 6 18:39:36 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:39:36 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: Cypherpunks as a spectator sport becomes interesting when a several intelligent, articulate, people start a productive rant. Emphasis on "productive." Unfortunately, this rant is rapidly degenerating into an emotional bickering between people who are capable of accomplishing much more. For the record, there are several Apple employees, some *very* high up in the food chain, who receive selected postings from Cypherpunks. For better or for worse, however, they are spared pipebomb-punks, Sternlight-punks, Ritalin-punks, and most of the other nonsense that permeates this mailing list. I, for one, would appreciate the chance to hear Tim May present "crypto-anarchy" and "crypto-privacy" -- in a much more coherent fashion than I would get at a physical cypherpunks meeting or from the mailing list. I'm not sure what Tim's consulting fee might be, but I'd be happy to contribute a six-pack of Anchor Steam if that would help. Vinnie is putting the "Mac Crypto" conference together in his spare time using "borrowed" facilities in a way that stays below Apple's "radar horizon". Think of it as a slightly more formal physical cypherpunks meeting. He may be able to scare up a budget for drinks and munchies, but don't expect a t-shirt. As for the "Mac is dead," I'll leave that to another time and place. Martin Minow minow at apple.com From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 6 18:45:58 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:45:58 +0800 Subject: Dumbo Lays an Egg (Was Re: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:12 AM -0400 8/6/96, Lucky Green wrote: > Robert, you *really* need to cut back on that Ritalin. No, not just `one > more'. Put it *away*. Now! > > ;-) *Now* I've gone and done it. In private e-mail, I've gotten things back like "You're outta control, man.", and "....Boom... My brain exploded. Summarize please." Usually, I get *nice* letters in my e-mail box after one of these things... Serves me right. On a second(!) read, it looks more like I didn't take *enough* ritalin. Might have focused things down a *lot*... That's what I get for trying out the May Method of rant-writing (i.e., fire 'em and forget 'em...). *Not* blaming May, of course, I'm just not *that* smart. ;-). I mean, Heinlien never drafted his short stories, either. :-). Yes, I know, Tim, You *Knew* Robert Anson Heinlien, and... Anyway, next time, I'll let it compost a bit, like the other e$ rants I do. On this one, I just sort of sat down, and, Flow, Vesuvius!, out comes a rant, 6 hours later. One Command-E, and out it goes. Now, of course, I'm reminded more of the time I played "Pinata" with the wasp nest... Sorry, folks. I'll be more considerate of your time on the next one. Promise. Oh. In Re the "Hunter Thompson" stuff. I *did* read too much Thompson -- and Tom Wolfe, and lots of other people -- and frankly, unless I'm writing something nice, dry, and pithy, which I can't do *all* the time, I can't stop now. You are what you read too much of. I'm kind of, well, twisted, that way, I guess. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Aug 6 19:24:12 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 10:24:12 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) In-Reply-To: <320652BC.31DF@netscape.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Jamie Zawinski wrote: > Black Unicorn wrote: > > > [ ...random losers asking for your SSN... ] > > > I was horrified and gave a random number. > > > > You should always be horrified, and always give a random number. > > Well, it would be nice if it was that easy. You (legally) need to give > the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS, > right? Such as your employer. But it's not always clear who else needs > it. Is it needed to allow someone to do a credit check on you? Is it > needed to get a driver's license? (The fine print on the DMV forms says > "yes".) Is it necessary to make use of employer-sponsored medical > insurance? (I suspect that the answer to this one is "no", except for > the fact that when my employer set up my medical insurance they let the > insurance company use my SSN as my insurance-related-ID-number. But in > any event, my dentist told me, "if you don't give it to us, they won't > pay.") > > I don't like the idea of having a universal ID number, but neither do I > like the idea of having to go to extreme lengths to make the "right > thing" happen for something where my effort will have only moral impact, > not material. > > If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way? > (Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid > telemarketing scum...) I explained a good deal of this in a post I made some time ago where I related the tale of a friend who had simply made up a number and used it since age 17. The reality is that not much will be done, aside some form letters from the IRS indicating that you seem to be using the wrong number, and won't you please change it. I suppose that you might have to give it to the IRS if you want a refund, but why to your employer? Why not give your employer the wrong number and correct it directly to the IRS when the IRS complains? Ditto for your bank. Almost no one can actually get the number related to your name, only verify if the number you are using has been issued. I am continually amazed at the number of people who surrender this number simply because someone tells them that they have to or the sky will fall in. Bottom line, if someone besides the IRS or the SS people have your name/number relation, it is because YOU gave it to them. > > -- > Jamie Zawinski jwz at netscape.com http://www.netscape.com/people/jwz/ > ``A signature isn't a return address, it is the ASCII equivalent of a > black velvet clown painting; it's a rectangle of carets surrounding > a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who.'' > -- Chris Maeda > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 6 20:24:51 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:24:51 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <199608061308.JAA24021@odin.nyser.net> Message-ID: If you want to pay _with a check_, you play by their rules. In fact, the word "pay" might not completely appropriate in that transaction. From sandfort at crl.com Tue Aug 6 20:26:20 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:26:20 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <3207B8DD.794B@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Hallam-Baker wrote: > ...unless Alan withdraws his allegations I will bring proceedings > against him for libel. While I accept his right to free speech I do > not accept that he has a right to attempt to restrict mine with his > threats of deportation. One of the ways UK and US laws differ is in regard to defamation. In the US, truth is a defense. In the UK it is not. Phill may have a tough time prevailing with such a suit. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From lspeidel at earthlink.net Tue Aug 6 21:13:28 1996 From: lspeidel at earthlink.net (Michael Cortes) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:13:28 +0800 Subject: THE WORLD IS SCREWD UP Message-ID: <3207C10E.60AF@earthlink.net> THIS WORLD IS SREWED UP i hate my life so mue hobbeys makeing time pipe bommbs so what is this all about huh what the fuck "anti terrisiom bill" damn sad ok so what does this mean FREE COUNTRY hahahaha i laugh when i hear that term there is no free country and we never have a wright to privesy u know man this sux so much....... oh and to the government u can kiss my ass From jsw at netscape.com Tue Aug 6 21:23:48 1996 From: jsw at netscape.com (Jeff Weinstein) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:23:48 +0800 Subject: Stealth cookies In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806171618.00a52aec@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: <3207E80C.79D1@netscape.com> John F. Fricker wrote: > Oh I was just being paranoid I guess. There used to be JavaScript that would > automatically send email from a page. something like > > > > action="mailto:john at vertexgroup.com?subject=user address"> > > > > > > But even if that still works it would be a good trick to associate it with a > cookie. This was a bug that existed for a short time, and was fixed about 6 months ago. Javascript can not submit mailto: forms at all, and all mailto: forms now cause a warning dialog to come up(the dialog can be turned off in preferences). --Jeff -- Jeff Weinstein - Electronic Munitions Specialist Netscape Communication Corporation jsw at netscape.com - http://home.netscape.com/people/jsw Any opinions expressed above are mine. From David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at cygnus.com Tue Aug 6 21:35:18 1996 From: David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at cygnus.com (David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at cygnus.com) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:35:18 +0800 Subject: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer? Message-ID: <199608061531.IAA05438@cygnus.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com, aeisenb at duke.poly.edu Date: Tue Aug 06 10:30:17 1996 > > Does anyone know what the equivalent technology is on Microsoft to > Netscape's cookie technology? Does Microsoft have support for cookies > or > not? > > All of the discussion on the list to do with > cookies is related to Netscape. Does this mean that if one switches to > Microsoft Explorer one can avoid the problem? Many thanks. > > Anne Eisenberg > aeisenb at duke.poly.edu > > My MSIE3.0b2 does cookies - tho' I've told it to ask me if it's OK first :-) I've even got a specific _sub-directory_ for cookies under my Windows dir. I just wish I could automate the refuse-it-if-it-doesn't-expire "policy" I'm running under. Dave Merriman - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome and encouraged. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAi3uZ2MAAAEEALWQtxX77SZSaFls6cVbPp+fZS4MNyKK3ZFYQo0qWyj+0tMq YgRTPRJRaCQixo63RttknogfPp514qdVMZw5iPeOXmD+RxrmTTwlbGqA7QUiG1x5 LG2Zims5zk4U6/rt8hwLh0/8E4lIb9r5d31qc8L1A9Twk/cmN8VrTvyYOzAZAAUR tClEYXZpZCBLLiBNZXJyaW1hbiA8bWVycmltYW5AbWV0cm9uZXQuY29tPokAlQMF EC6sAl+SAziJlog3BQEBxX8D/05ub986Io1PaGJgDtVlbMOPh2pjdB3QSpA8T7bh ngpsTbogz7LnFY6nLTH24dVswnzRGzX2XYN2FXQzYLEKpbuJPF85620EqEJt7eck kDSr0MdCorCZ3ntHGlaRIEOG8En7r/NUxtPJSbeANHyKV0pZTJ0ZF3p71yAZoCU1 JJWoiQCVAwUQLqcRtKljmJBIq8VdAQFFCQQAidBWF05UfZ3HdLTZ2BjhkiztbHIL fCMVAzMkNobRLH0jcQ+o4N9Ny7gAP2bHreadCYQAiyx24LWZaWB+LkG48vVXvSa1 Zv+ksrEp19U30jReTaDHMRg2IDQ0S7T/+YykWf4cx/L4x0ll55zfT29THWHVqpeA 4w0PnSBJubMsG6iJAJUCBRAt7mhNxWtO/Jg7MBkBAWyPA/9BYsA3G33jcg1SfuxC Fh4yMVZCBrvgK2FBJZUdxkgR1WfVYe5/GzV3jRzJxuXGdt0yzFb8HsocRUvnA4vi O6Jngza+seuc+dNC8X1LyyuW0rkogVZE6ds/v4qI2P+uticCh8xBLp7ieAjvGIcc tdQnXrMxF+w6V80cSy/dqxJjtg== =WVf6 - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgauP8VrTvyYOzAZAQH6sQP/U8kaDIUG1VrPqqaLaXLfvS0M3bpk8fq+ YUjVEbg94qTXZeCuw+D7dKbVOtX0WiFFcvqsrTtHfZPWZQ8uHPkgAX0EHpoPoOR4 Dx44XoZrHm/fYlQV7GJh5bxB4qrRg7a4ciJ9lSHfs1tCERy6U5R687rhizS3kJYm SOR3MBilsTE= =OawJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at cygnus.com Tue Aug 6 21:57:31 1996 From: David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at cygnus.com (David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at cygnus.com) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:57:31 +0800 Subject: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer? Message-ID: <199608061614.JAA06961@cygnus.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com, aeisenb at duke.poly.edu Date: Tue Aug 06 11:14:00 1996 > Dave: > > Thanks very much for responding. Yes, MSIE3.0b2 does support cookies. > I > have several more questions based on your answer, if you have the time: > > 1. Does it ask you each time a cookie is sent? Some sites send many, > many cookies. This would mean that you are in some instances constantly > declining, even dozens of times. Have I got this right? I have IE3 configured to ask me for permission to accept a cookie. Yes, some sites send (n!)+1 cookies during a session. If they send too many, I personally move on to another site, after sending them email (!). > > 2. Is "refuse-it-if-it-doesn't-expire" actually printed on the screen? > I > understand that some servers set short expiration times. Does Netscape > actually say, "tell us what expiration time you want?" Or is it done > some > other way? Sorry for the confusion - the refuse-it policy I mentioned is a personal policy; there's no option (yet) to configure something like that in IE3. The only two things I've personally seen have been cookies with specific expiration dates (which I usually accept, if the date is reasonable [IMHO]), and cookies that don't display an expiration (which I refuse out-of-hand). It seems to be a compromise that suits _me_; YMMV. > > 3. If you can't automate, does this mean you have to refuse every > time? > (This is, I guess, the same as question 1.) Many, many thanks. I can 'automate' to the extent of automatically accepting all cookies; yes, by not accepting every cookie, I'm obliged to make a decision for each request. One of the 'benefits' of being somewhate security-aware :-) Dave - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome and encouraged. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAi3uZ2MAAAEEALWQtxX77SZSaFls6cVbPp+fZS4MNyKK3ZFYQo0qWyj+0tMq YgRTPRJRaCQixo63RttknogfPp514qdVMZw5iPeOXmD+RxrmTTwlbGqA7QUiG1x5 LG2Zims5zk4U6/rt8hwLh0/8E4lIb9r5d31qc8L1A9Twk/cmN8VrTvyYOzAZAAUR tClEYXZpZCBLLiBNZXJyaW1hbiA8bWVycmltYW5AbWV0cm9uZXQuY29tPokAlQMF EC6sAl+SAziJlog3BQEBxX8D/05ub986Io1PaGJgDtVlbMOPh2pjdB3QSpA8T7bh ngpsTbogz7LnFY6nLTH24dVswnzRGzX2XYN2FXQzYLEKpbuJPF85620EqEJt7eck kDSr0MdCorCZ3ntHGlaRIEOG8En7r/NUxtPJSbeANHyKV0pZTJ0ZF3p71yAZoCU1 JJWoiQCVAwUQLqcRtKljmJBIq8VdAQFFCQQAidBWF05UfZ3HdLTZ2BjhkiztbHIL fCMVAzMkNobRLH0jcQ+o4N9Ny7gAP2bHreadCYQAiyx24LWZaWB+LkG48vVXvSa1 Zv+ksrEp19U30jReTaDHMRg2IDQ0S7T/+YykWf4cx/L4x0ll55zfT29THWHVqpeA 4w0PnSBJubMsG6iJAJUCBRAt7mhNxWtO/Jg7MBkBAWyPA/9BYsA3G33jcg1SfuxC Fh4yMVZCBrvgK2FBJZUdxkgR1WfVYe5/GzV3jRzJxuXGdt0yzFb8HsocRUvnA4vi O6Jngza+seuc+dNC8X1LyyuW0rkogVZE6ds/v4qI2P+uticCh8xBLp7ieAjvGIcc tdQnXrMxF+w6V80cSy/dqxJjtg== =WVf6 - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMga4f8VrTvyYOzAZAQFSHQP+PDyrhYPZ6AMVyTk3ZSvlyF3rba9Xn7jZ iGk3hN/2yPwdk2Oyaf7NOsL6WyyFPQOvfYgOhgb2Q49EPfhmqmo5PkZLEqb16f35 otKOAcAdKwMxwcG8aS7zEBrT4zquGoVRHxldJhfv71PUWihpsIxc4ZJKed9q+uCq DjkRUtAW+2U= =s19M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sandfort at crl.com Tue Aug 6 22:15:13 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:15:13 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <9608062338.AA01808@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, When I wrote: > >One of the ways UK and US laws differ is in regard to defamation. > >In the US, truth is a defense. In the UK it is not. Phill may > >have a tough time prevailing with such a suit. ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >[emphasis added] Phill responded: > In the first place cypherpunks is distributed in the UK. That > means I can issue a writ in the UK. And that plus 75 cents will get you coffee. Unless Alan is in the UK, its repressive laws are of little consequence. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 6 22:28:01 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:28:01 +0800 Subject: Apple people on the list Message-ID: <199608070252.TAA01351@mail.pacifier.com> At 11:15 PM 8/6/96 GMT, John Young wrote: >I'd like to hear Tim, too, in this Big Apple. RealAudio, perhaps. >What would you offer to set off Tim's simmering crypto-anarcho-volcano, >make it heard round the planet? A plan. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Aug 6 22:54:14 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:54:14 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <3207B8DD.794B@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <199608070205.VAA17482@manifold.algebra.com> Hallam-Baker wrote: > Alan Horowitz wrote: > > I have added you to my computerized list of individuals who advocate > > the violent overthrow of the US Constitution. > > > > I am going to go to the law library and see what my options are, with > > respect to filing a petition to have you deported out of the United > > States. > > > > This is not a rhetorical statement. > > First off Alan posted private mail to the list. In this case mail > that was more than simply personal. > > Secondly unless Alan withdraws his allegations I will bring proceedings > against him for libel. While I accept his right to free speech I do > not accept that he has a right to attempt to restrict mine with his > threats of deportation. Relax, nobody will deport you. Once The Right Reverend Colin James III (puke) tried to get me deported, with no result. And unlike Horowitz, CJ3 was serious. CJ3 is much dumber than Horowitz though, in my opinion. - Igor. From declan at well.com Tue Aug 6 23:03:40 1996 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:03:40 +0800 Subject: Waiting Game on wiretapping and crypto, from HotWired Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 05:15:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: Declan McCullagh Subject: Waiting Game on wiretapping and crypto, from HotWired To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Sender: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu We have a four-week reprieve until the Senate returns. As I say in the full article at the URL below, they've been worse than the House when it comes to wiretapping/crypto/censorship. For instance, senators already passed the Feinstein Amendment banning bomb-making info (on- and off-line) as part of a defense appropriations authorization bill. -Declan --- http://www.netizen.com/netizen/ HotWired, The Netizen Waiting Game by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) Washington, DC, 5 August In a last-minute legislative crunch before the summer recess, House Republicans on Friday outmaneuvered their Democratic counterparts and coughed up a surprisingly reasonable anti-terrorism bill, which the Senate will act on when Congress returns next month. [...] But the Senate has begun its own four-week vacation without voting on the measure, and they'll have plenty of time to reintroduce the missing [wiretapping] language when they return. The outlook, frankly, is dismal, says Don Haines of the American Civil Liberties Union. "The Senate has been much more interested in giving the FBI a blank check. They've been much more sympathetic to increasing wiretapping. They've been much less interested in protecting privacy," Haines said. [...] Meanwhile, Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont) - a staunch opponent of the Communications Decency Act - continues to tout his Digital Telephony legislation, which he shepherded through Congress in 1994... Perhaps Harry Browne, the Libertarian Party's candidate for president, had it right when he said last week: "If we're not careful, half of the Bill of Rights will fall victim to the frantic desire of Republican and Democratic politicians to appear tough on terrorists." The last few years have seen several murderous acts of terror on American soil - and now, with the explosion of TWA Flight 800, in American airspace. Americans should brace themselves for even more... Whether the terror is foreign or domestic in origin, one thing's for certain: cries for a government crackdown will mount. But by granting their government police-state powers, Americans will have awarded terrorists their first substantial victory in the United States. ### From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 7 00:01:47 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:01:47 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806100644.00911380@panix.com> Message-ID: Duncan Frissell writes: > Naughty naughty Tim. You're violating the Immigration Control and > Nationality Act of 1986. You are supposed to check all employee's IDs even > your own childrens' and fill out that I-9 form. You have to verify identity > and right to work using a menu of documents ranging from passports and SS > cards to Driver's licenses and "American Indian Tribal Documents" (I gotta > get me some of them). And there are special provisions to punish > discrimination against those who appear foreign. ... In New York State, there are periodic complaints from Sovok "refugees" like Igor Chewed-Off, who come in with a I-94 visa (and authorization to work), and get the green card after two years. They get welfare, but apply for jobs... Some poor employer slob refuses to hire the Sovok, thinking mistakenly that he can only hire amcits or green card holders (even though I-94 with authorization is listed on I-9). The employer pays a hefty fine for "illegal discrimination", of which the Sovok gets a cut. Nice racket. Did you ever try it, Igor? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From mccoy at communities.com Wed Aug 7 00:03:15 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:03:15 +0800 Subject: appropriate algorithm for application Message-ID: Cerridwyn Llewyellyn writes: > I need an algorithm/protocol that is capable of encrypting numerous > files with separate keys, but there also needs to be a master key > that will be able to decrypt all of them. Is there such a system > that is relatively secure? I'd prefer the system to be as secure > as possible, but in this application, security is secondary to > functionality. You can get the basic functionality you require by using a regular hybrid PKE system (pubkey encrypts symmetric session key) and encrypting the session key with the public key of a "master key" as well. For example, assuming a user A and a master key C you just have the program A uses to encrypt files operate in a manner similar to that used by PGP and other public-key encryption systems [pubkeyA(sessionkey),IDEA(sessionkey,data)] except in addition to the pubkeyA(sessionkey) which encrypts the random key used to encrypt the actual data you add a masterpubkeyC(sessionkey) section to the beginning of the file as well. The resulting data packet is [pubkeyA(sessionkey),masterpubkeyC(sessionkey),IDEA(sessionkey, data)] This system is as secure as the public-key system used for encryption and would actually be fairly easy to hack in to PGP, although the modified PGP messages which contain the master key information would not be usable by regular PGP. jim From tomw at netscape.com Wed Aug 7 00:03:39 1996 From: tomw at netscape.com (Tom Weinstein) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:03:39 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <19960805204130906.AAB148@maverick> Message-ID: <32080CFD.15FB@netscape.com> For anyone who's interested, the antiterrorism bill is finally up on Thomas. It's H.R. 3953, the Aviation Security and Antiterrorism Act of 1996. The discussion about it is also there, in the congressional record. It's interesting. -- You should only break rules of style if you can | Tom Weinstein coherently explain what you gain by so doing. | tomw at netscape.com From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 7 00:32:08 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:32:08 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: At 5:01 PM 8/6/96, Martin Minow wrote: >Cypherpunks as a spectator sport becomes interesting when a several >intelligent, articulate, people start a productive rant. Emphasis >on "productive." Unfortunately, this rant is rapidly degenerating >into an emotional bickering between people who are capable of >accomplishing much more. Note that I had made no mention of this exchange with VM on the list. I had not echoed my "Mac is dead" points, and had not bad-mouthed the "Mac Crypto" thing. However, when my private e-mail to VM was commented upon, in a not so thinly disguised form, and when Bob H. made it clear he'd been privy to my e-mail, I felt justified in setting the record straight on my views, as expressed in my e-mail to Vinnie. (It was not, being an e-mail note, meant to be a closely-reasoned and footnoted summary of Apple's problems, just a statement of why I had no interest in giving a kind of pep talk to Apple folks.) As to whether it's appropriate as a thread here on Cypherpunks, hey, there's a "delete" key on most machines. Again, I don't consider the Mac to be dead, at least not for several years. The Amiga lives on, and it never had even a fraction of the peak market share of the Mac. However, the focus of crypto has clearly moved well away from the Mac. I noted where the emphasis needs to be, for maximum impact. Namely, Eudora, Netscape, and other mail and Web programs. It's a basic fact of life--think about it--that people on this list and elsewhere are _not_ asking what Gil Amelio's stance on cryptography is. They don't care, as Gil Amelio, Heidi Roizen, Guy Kawasaki, and all the rest are simply not in the critical path. What people care about is what plans Bill Gates, Jim Clarke, and Jim Bidzos have, or their factotums, as these are the folks who will likely shape the commercial product landscape. (As to why I don't switch, I have much time and money invested in Macs, and they still work. As I said in one of my notes to Vinnie, I mainly use Eudora Pro for mail, Netscape Navigator for browsing, and a handful of other programs. There would be no compelling gain were I to scrap my Mac investment and buy a Pentium Pro and Windows NT.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 7 00:32:16 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:32:16 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: At 10:06 AM 8/6/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 07:37 PM 8/5/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >>But the law says, these days, that I must verify the >>legality of workers *if* they appear to be dark-skinned, Mexican, Latin, or >>the like. I say "if" because there are no requirements in general for ... >Naughty naughty Tim. You're violating the Immigration Control and >Nationality Act of 1986. You are supposed to check all employee's IDs even >your own childrens' and fill out that I-9 form. You have to verify identity >and right to work using a menu of documents ranging from passports and SS >cards to Driver's licenses and "American Indian Tribal Documents" (I gotta >get me some of them). And there are special provisions to punish >discrimination against those who appear foreign. After all, there are loads >of illegal Canadians and Irish here. People are always coming from the >third world counties. > >The law also required that a commission study whether or not the "foreign >appearing" were suffering discrimination because of the law and it reported >a few years later that sure enough, they were. On this last point, hardly surprising. After all, the "punishment" (risk, cost) for not checking an obviously-Caucasoid person of apparent American origins is effectively zero, while the punishment for hiring a Mexican who may have slipped over the border and gotten a forged credential is high. (Employers here in California have been penalized for hiring Mexicans whose credentials turned out to be phony...I guess the employer was supposed to have known this by some sort of ESP.) Simpler to avoid hiring Mexicans and other dusky folks. The law of unintended consequences... BTW, I am _not_ a supporter of the Prop. 187 issue in California. Nor do I in any way support the "deputization" of employers as agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. This is comparable to deputizing employers as agents of the Drug Enforcement Agency...though many companies have bowed to pressure from the narcs and "D.A.R.E." lobby and have drug-testing programs, they are not (yet) required by law to test all employees, except in some particular job funcitons, etc. As far as I am concerned, this country has never moved toward the general concept of a "work permit" (permission by the government to get a job), and it is a real danger of this anti-illegal-immigrant hysteria that we will soon see the effective equivalent of "work permits." This will of course give the authorities even more power. We're getting closer and closer to the world of "The Shockwave Rider." --Nicky Halflinger HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From jya at pipeline.com Wed Aug 7 00:39:53 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:39:53 +0800 Subject: CRN on Crypto Roadblock Message-ID: <199608061732.RAA18656@pipe5.t2.usa.pipeline.com> Computer Reseller News, 8-05-96, p. 51 Channel feels pinch of export limitations -- VARs Hit Encryption Roadblock By Charlotte Dunlap & Deborah Gage Could 40 bits of code cost you that multimillion-dollar bid? Andrew Sheppard, president of Branford, Conn.-based Espion Inc., just returned from a frustrating business trip to Europe, where he said he lost a number of accounts with financial institutions because he could not deliver software with more than 40 bits of encryption key length. Sheppard, who recently tried to sell his encryption wares to clients in Europe, said he lost business to competitors offering stronger encryption. "There is a real demand for this type of product, and yet I find myself thwarted at every single opportunity by this stupid law, which everyone realizes is unnecessary," Sheppard said. Sheppard said potential clients that turned him down during his recent trip included Banco Santander, a Madrid-based bank; the London office of Credit Suisse; Logica Systems of London; and the financial reporting arm of Reuters' news service in London. As the trend toward networking-sensitive information grows, woes tied to encryption export limitations are spreading to the VAR community. The dilemma of shipping overseas anything other than light versions of security software is starting to sabotage the efforts of Internet resellers. Because 40 bits of code is considered to be breakable by an elementary hacker, major corporations with data to protect are reluctant to trust U.S. technology. So, U.S. resellers are being turned away while multinational corporations turn to foreign technologies. The debate between business and the U.S. government about export limitations is getting increasingly heated with the growth of the Internet. The Pro-Code Bill, which aims to relax export restrictions, has just been introduced, and prominent Silicon Valley executives are trekking to Washington regularly to argue the case. Jim Bidzos, president and chief executive of encryption market leader RSA Data Security Inc., Redwood City, Calif., has spent a lot of time in Washington. "The big picture in terms of what's happening is all of our communications and document storage is moving from paper and filing cabinets to the Internet and disk drives. We need crypto technology in order to protect this," he said. But resellers are getting discouraged and do not see a quick resolution with law makers. Meanwhile, they are losing business at a staggering rate. Norm Yamaguchi, director of sales for RSA master reseller Secure Distribution Inc., said he could have tripled the size of his million-dollar company this year if it were not for U.S. export laws dictating a maximum 40-bit key encryption length to his clients' international offices. "To say this law is causing me problems is a massive understatement," Yamaguchi said. The reseller currently is in talks with Price Waterhouse to get them to standardize on Oakland, Calif.-based Secure Distribution's security products, but will likely lose the contract because of the 40-bit key length limitation. Resellers' fear of losing business to foreign players is not paranoia, either. The Business Software Alliance has identified 500 encryption products that can be purchased in foreign countries. Information about the stronger foreign technology can be obtained easily through the Internet. "The laws are punishing U.S. companies, and we're losing business to foreign countries because they can offer the same thing. The law is not holding back the flow of encryption, it is just holding back U.S. companies from making money," he added, calling it a "lose-lose situation." Reseller Al Hill, vice president of engineering for Successful Systems Solutions, Rancho Cordova, Calif., has to surrender part of his solutions services in order to keep his foreign clients. "We ship units to England, Hong Kong and Singapore, and we have to downgrade the software [to 40 bits] on all of them. They were rather upset but smart enough to realize they could upgrade the security themselves," he said, adding that he has lost business because he could not complete projects himself. "We have to make sure the APIs in the software are available so people overseas can tie them into their [security] applications," he said. Similarly, Dave Johnson, senior account manager of Precision Computers Inc., Portland, Ore., said he lost an account with a multinational company with offices in France because "it became too troublesome for them to implement U.S. products because of the legal problems." Uncle Sam's View U.S. companies and civil libertarians have been battling the government since 1991, when the proposal of the Clipper Chip first surfaced. At that time, the government proposed splitting the encryption keys and holding a portion of them in escrow, giving law enforcement officials with court orders a back door through which to conduct electronic surveillance. To date, the U.S. government has budged little from its original idea. The Clipper Chip idea was squelched, but the government refuses to concede that strong encryption is not a munition because it believes national security is at stake. In recent weeks, Vice President Al Gore proposed a compromise: The government would extend the types of software that could be exported, perhaps to include healthcare or insurance instead of just finance, and allow long keys if countries where the United States has government-to- government agreements could hold keys in escrow. A 24-member technical advisory committee is expected to produce a blueprint for establishing the Federal Key Management Infrastructure in September. The Vendor's View Software executives remain disgruntled with the government's progress. "Do we really want government- to-government agreements?" asked Eric Schmidt, Sun Microsystems Inc.'s Chief Technology Officer. "The U.S. has protections that other countries don't. France, for example, is noted for industrial espionage." Microsoft Corp. Senior Vice President Craig Mundie said an escrow system would create an expensive bureaucracy, adding: "This should really be described as a key-leasing system. This will create a huge new business in extracting keys from the public. If you want to make sure that your key is not compromised by law enforcement officials, you're going to need insurance. There will be a whole service industry around keys." Vendors also argue that the government's reasoning is not legitimate. "The current controls do not keep encryption out of the hands of the criminals. They keep it out of the hands of individuals and corporations," said Sybase Inc. Director of Data and Communications Security Development Thomas Parenty. Sun, Microsoft and other companies would like complete deregulation of encryption. Three bills that would lift government restrictions and prohibit mandatory key escrow are working their way through Congress, although none are likely to pass this year. NEXT WEEK: Measuring the level of difficulty in cracking code. [End] Thanks to LG. From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Aug 7 01:06:31 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:06:31 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608070517.WAA03969@dns2.noc.best.net> At 08:20 PM 8/4/96 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote: > It would be entirely foolish for the crypto > lobby to allow themselves to be tied to the NRA. The NRA has > no choice but to support civil liberties, there is no reason > why the wider civil liberties movement needs to support the > NRA. First they came for the communists ..... --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 7 01:07:58 1996 From: hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu (hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:07:58 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <199608070205.VAA17482@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <9608070531.AA02593@Etna.ai.mit.edu> I was rather more angry that Alan published a private correspondence on a public mailing list. I live in the same city as between twenty and thirty members of a group that have in the past tried to murder my familly. If he wasn;t such a fool he would have realised that I deliberately did not post the message to the list. Phill From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Aug 7 01:20:27 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:20:27 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <9608070531.AA02593@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <199608070525.AAA21051@manifold.algebra.com> hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: > > > I was rather more angry that Alan published a private correspondence > on a public mailing list. I live in the same city as between twenty > and thirty members of a group that have in the past tried to murder my > familly. If he wasn;t such a fool he would have realised that I deliberately > did not post the message to the list. > Wow! Why did they want to murder your family? - Igor. From sandfort at crl.com Wed Aug 7 01:25:16 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:25:16 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <9608070525.AA02577@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Wed, 7 Aug 1996 hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: > > Au contraire, the UK is as obnoxious in exporting its laws as > the US... Fine, Phillll can sue in the UK. I'm sure Alan is quaking in his boots at the prospect. As I said, Phillll is going to have a tough time prevailing. Of course, if Phillll thinks he has a winner, he should double dip and offer me a wager on the outcome of his suit. (Yeah, that'll happen when primates take wing out of my derriere.) S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 7 02:03:47 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 17:03:47 +0800 Subject: Stealth cookies Message-ID: At 17:49 8/6/96, Jeff Weinstein wrote: [...] > This was a bug that existed for a short time, and was fixed about >6 months ago. Javascript can not submit mailto: forms at all, and >all mailto: forms now cause a warning dialog to come up(the dialog >can be turned off in preferences). You have done a lot to improve security. It is not going unnoticed. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 7 02:08:21 1996 From: hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu (hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 17:08:21 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9608070525.AA02577@Etna.ai.mit.edu> Au contraire, the UK is as obnoxious in exporting its laws as the US. The Prime Minister of Greece when (accurately) accused of corruption in the Greek press sued them in the UK courts and won $200K In recent years many Tory Grandees have benefited from the libel lottery. Amongst them Lord Aldington who was accused of being involved in war crimes during WWII and 'won" 1.75 million which the European Court of Human rights rejected as being "disproportionate". Lord Archer recently won $1 million after a couple of newspapers alledged that he might have been sleeping with the prostitute he was photographed giving 5000GBP to (and afterwards claimed not to have met). With the exception of the suicide act its probabky the stupidest and most damaging law that ever got passed in the English system. Phill From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Aug 7 02:08:56 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 17:08:56 +0800 Subject: Bombs & bomb threats in LA Message-ID: <199608070517.WAA03971@dns2.noc.best.net> At 10:15 AM 8/5/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: > The molecular difference between TNT and picric acid is a methyl group, > weight 15 (on TNT) substituted for a hydroxyl, weight 17 (on > picric acid.) If there is a difference, it is a very small one. Picric acid is easier for amateurs to make than TNT. It has the same energy per unit mass as TNT, but it's destructive power is greater because of the substantially higher velocity of detonation. It is far less predictable and far easier to detonate than TNT. Also TNT has the advantage that it can be melted and poured into molds, and it is cheaper to manufacture in large quantities. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From hal9001 at panix.com Wed Aug 7 02:18:44 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 17:18:44 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers In-Reply-To: <199608042050.NAA12512@toad.com> Message-ID: At 13:50 -0700 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote: >My guess about how they'll be used is to replace the bar-code >stickers used by many baggage-handling systems - they'll stick >one on at checkin, corresponding to the number on your ticket, >track them when they load them on the plane (so they know >that all the bags correspond to people expected to get on the plane, >as well as knowing the bags are getting on the correct plane), >and track the tickets to make sure that all the people expected >to get on the plane actually do get on (I think they use bar-code >readers or OCR today, and that'll probably continue.) They better hold off loading the containers with the luggage until they lock down/up the plane so they can verify who got on (and can pull any unaccompanied luggage). It is either that or unloading the plane if there is a missing passenger. From blane at aa.net Wed Aug 7 02:49:14 1996 From: blane at aa.net (Brian C. Lane) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 17:49:14 +0800 Subject: ****Tacoma, Washington Starts Taxing Internet Access 07/30/96 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960805181729.00e8c4a0@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <320824da.6417327@mail.aa.net> On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 11:17:29 -0700, you wrote: >At 05:42 AM 8/5/96 -1000, NetSurfer wrote: >> >>On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote: >> >>> >>> >WASHINGTON, DC, U.S.A., 1996 JUL 30 (NB) -- By Bill Pietrucha. >>> >Tacoma, Washington, has just gained the distinction of being the >>> >only municipality in the United States to tax Internet Access >>> >providers (IAPs) like telephone service providers. >>> > >I believe the reason the Tacoma ordinance is getting so much flack is that >they are wanting to charge sales tax on all transactions that take place >from ISPs in Tacoma. A slight correction. They are imposing a 6% tax on the Gross receipts of all Internet Providers who have customers in Tacoma. This includes AOL, Compu$erve, and my local favorites - aa.net and eskimo.com Tacoma also wants these companies to buy a $72 a year business license. There are the beginnings of an uprising against this, the mayor has called for it to be repealed, but the City Council (In all of its bureaucratic wisdom) wants to wait and see what happens. There's a public meeting on the 27th of August. > >This type of taxation is not new. Various jurisdictions have tried to use >the same thing on mail order houses. Having worked for a service bureau >that dealt with mail order, I know what a hassle it is to try to keep track >of such taxation. There is a company that will sell you the data of all of >the sales tax rates throughout the country. This includes every little >podunk city, county, and fire district tax. They are divided by zip code, >but that is no guarantees that you have the right place. The reality is that >trying to "be legal" under such regulations is next to impossible, even with >the proper data. I know of few mail order firms that are willing to go to >that extreme. (Unless, of course, they have gotten the proper threats from >some miffed tax baron.) Plus the fact that the taxation of these services (well, IMHO all taxation is ...) is not based on services provided to the business by the city. My provider is located in seattle, and has lines in Tacoma. They use no Tacoma services, and yet Tacoma says that the provider owes them money. Its just another grab for money by the simple minded bureaucrats. Hopefully we can toss some more of these jokers out of office the next election. Brian p.s. Sorry for the previous aborted message. The printer dialog popped up in the middle of typing and it the message somehow got sent out. ------- -------------------- ------- Embedded Systems Programmer, quick hacks on request, CryptoAnarchist ============== 11 99 3D DB 63 4D 0B 22 15 DC 5A 12 71 DE EE 36 ============ From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 7 03:11:03 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:11:03 +0800 Subject: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807070636.00a7ffa8@mail.teleport.com> At 09:14 AM 8/6/96 -0700, David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at cygnus.com, wrote: >I have IE3 configured to ask me for permission to accept a cookie. Yes, >some sites send (n!)+1 cookies during a session. If they send too many, I >personally move on to another site, after sending them email (!). If the site sends you *LOTS* of cookies with no expire date, then they have probibly compiled their Apache server with the mod_cookie module. The cookies are only used by the log files and i am willing to bet that most people who have that option compiled in do not even read the logs. --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From rp at rpini.com Wed Aug 7 03:12:17 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:12:17 +0800 Subject: crypto CD source Message-ID: <9608070607.AA05020@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 07 08:04:50 1996 That's all well (your diverse site/mirror-suggestions), but my local phonecompany charges by the minute. If I download the lets say 500MB for the CD, I'm broke! Does anyone have direkt access to the sites and can make a DAT-backup? (In some format I can read: WinNT Backupprog)? Thanks, Remo - --------< fate favors the prepared mind >-------- Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/remopini/rpcrypto.html - ------< words are what reality is made of >------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMggyBhFhy5sz+bTpAQGLjQf9EX3/mJQa6woKTZN5uz8dma8Cpv/PFQTC zsV5h0pjDLiA0RdIZexPJMfTNw+ZFyPdNkma9PgB60kGf2CrNrqLlBWv5XmZQ2HH kTqcuou2mHm/JeJv5m8v7Vckm8BmTtvdpL2mWK8pG0iB5fWbwiTo9VkyCrwfq/q+ BoAaGS4zkNOTuTlmWo/zwkheEVdV5gRjwI+IyHCTQMZ9rFRqLvmOYxClcEQ0X7C4 X5pFIZgaxw7u953MNbnmyeGVwpHqahhi8mn8mblKpVG2KIxR17lC9lKcZFygTAqA eddDvrCnCNcyH4zrWksOvPCZfqQbH5mBuFskxjSC1ZXgz+1ZoGKpOw== =veJq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From drose at azstarnet.com Wed Aug 7 03:16:02 1996 From: drose at azstarnet.com (David M. Rose) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:16:02 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608062350.QAA18315@web.azstarnet.com> Hallam-Baker wrote: >First off Alan posted private mail to the list. In this case mail >that was more than simply personal. > >Secondly unless Alan withdraws his allegations I will bring proceedings >against him for libel. While I accept his right to free speech I do >not accept that he has a right to attempt to restrict mine with his >threats of deportation. > > > Phill Hallam-Baker > Oh goody! Another Hallam-Baker-generated p*ssing contest. Perhaps you fellows should settle your differences with a bet. Oops, I forgot. The good "Doc" dishonors his wagers with a series of fantastic and infantile "misunderstandings". From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 7 03:16:49 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:16:49 +0800 Subject: Censorship through proxy Message-ID: At 4:23 PM 8/6/96, Joel McNamara wrote: >SingNet, one of Singapore's larger ISPs is telling all of their subscribers >they must move to using SingNet's proxy server by September 14, 1996 if they >want to have access to the Web. > >If you try to access one of the SBA's banned sites, you'll get a message >that says, "The site you requested is not accessible." > >Check out: > >http://www.singnet.com.sg/cache/sbareg.html Sing Sing (the country is now a prison, so...) is one of the states we should think about targetting for "special attention." Not in the sense of violence, but in the sense of offering help to freedom fighters, those who want to use stego, web proxies, etc. I wonder what would happen if "Computers, Freedom, and Privacy '98" was held in Sing Sing? --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From rp at rpini.com Wed Aug 7 03:17:25 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:17:25 +0800 Subject: THE WORLD IS SCREWD UP Message-ID: <9608070619.AA05456@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 07 08:16:48 1996 > THIS WORLD IS SREWED UP i hate my life so mue hobbeys makeing time pipe > bommbs so what is this all about huh what the fuck "anti terrisiom bill" > damn sad ok so what does this mean FREE COUNTRY hahahaha i laugh when i > hear that term there is no free country and we never have a wright to > privesy u know man this sux so much....... oh and to the government u > can kiss my ass And here I was thinking my English sucks! By the way, keyboard do have keys like ".,;:". :-) - --------< fate favors the prepared mind >-------- Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/remopini/rpcrypto.html - ------< words are what reality is made of >------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMgg01BFhy5sz+bTpAQFz9ggArJOn4g8i/xREcEAjYXAO5oB+Jt6wUox1 dMh9GYpoYiYkb2qzpvQ9kK7JRMbehZRqhsltPQ7ydn1hNs/v+O+M4MG6I0FoIJg4 mmpEY7DDfLmqyPUAgEFq07re3pGraeteLFdSTlDvjxiBNw2+0K1EjQWHVVgxT/2p CKeKW8/v/dSA68TFVFcBlYKbNYZREUeEhTLhFLmuXXXkJcC3orrO0ODaENT7MWUz o1uCPq0v+XM+WMhNji5dIkVN6/SJQ0QT1MjocCmOFuMAa/UW8lwX2BPqBvI3K1ao EOb8hHDut+yMExRI2X6rtC3u8lgvm/8i58BBc1IncuI1Oxgn1ivmDw== =hwr+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 7 03:18:21 1996 From: hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu (hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:18:21 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <199608062350.QAA18315@web.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <9608070000.AA01836@Etna.ai.mit.edu> >Oh goody! Another Hallam-Baker-generated p*ssing contest. Perhaps you >fellows should settle your differences with a bet. Oops, I forgot. The good >"Doc" dishonors his wagers with a series of fantastic and infantile >"misunderstandings". Actually I'm now happy to accept the bet but in the forum of my choice:- http://www.ideosphere.com/ideosphere/fx/main.html Phill From jon at taurus.apple.com Wed Aug 7 03:18:23 1996 From: jon at taurus.apple.com (Jon Callas) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:18:23 +0800 Subject: Apple people on the list Message-ID: A quick response to Tim May's recent mail. I'm an Apple employee. I'm on the cypherpunks list, but I'm not sure if Tim would consider me active. I read cypherpunks on one of the edited versions (the "frogfarm" edition, many thanks to its editor, Damaged Justice), but I subscribe to and read Coderpunks. I do, however write software and papers on security and crypto. I have done so for over six years. One of the reasons I subscribe to Cypherpunks is, in fact, Tim May. Whenever I see something he's written, I read it, which is more than I can say for most of Cypherpunks. When I was getting all of Cypherpunks, I used Tim's messages as navigation buoys. I am disappointed that Tim won't be at the Mac Crypto conference. I thought it was an excellent idea for him to speak, and think it would still be an excellent idea. I would like to hear his views in a forum more detailed than the short things that go on Cypherpunks. As for me, I'm going to be giving a talk at the conference on using, abusing, and constructing random number generators. The talk is an updated reprise of the talk and paper I gave at MacHack '96. A number of us would also like to hear Tim speak. I'm sure that as a consulting fee we can come up with enough t-shirts and beer that it will make the drive back over 17 even more harrowing than it usually is. I'll toss in a copy of the Macintosh Entropy Manager, but since I'm giving it away to anyone who wants it, it's not much. Perhaps I can autograph a floppy or something. Jon Callas Senior Scientist Apple Labs, Advanced Communications and Collaboration jon at taurus.apple.com http://www.merrymeet.com/jon From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 03:18:24 1996 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:18:24 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <199608070325.UAA22254@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 06 Aug 96, hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: > >Contrary to reports of some sort of inversion it is not the case that >shell cases need to be found at the scene of a crime to cause an >arrest and conviction. There are many people who are serving time >after having left their fingerprints on shell cases found in a gun >recovered after a crime. If the gun can be linked to a crime scene >via balistics reports and the shells in the gun to an individual via >fingerprints that is circumstansial evidence. I am very skeptical of this. When a gun is fired, the shell casing becomes quite hot--hot enough to burn skin. (I have learned this from experience--once when firing my semi-auto .22 at a range, an ejected casing bounced off a post next to me and landed inside my collar. The resulting burn formed a blister on my neck.) This kind of heat has a tendency to evaporate the skin oils that fingerprints are composed of, which is going to make getting any useful print from the case extremely difficult. Also, when the gun is fired, the pressure inside the case presses it flat against the chamber wall, which is going to smudge the print, especially on semi-autos where extraction occurs while there is still a significant amount of pressure in the case. Furthermore, most shell cases are too small to get anything close to a complete print, which makes positive matching even more difficult. It is much more believable that prints were taken from the gun, which is handled more (thereby collecting more prints) and which generally doesn't reach skin-damaging temperatures. Regardless of feasibility of collecting prints from cases, serial numbers on ammunition is still a stupid idea. Currently, all firearms are required to have serial numbers. However, serial numbers only rarely help solve crimes. Most criminals use weapons that have had the serial number welded over, filed off, etc. or that have been stolen, so the gun is registered in someone else's name, or both. Registration is a vastly more effective tool for the government to know where most of the lawfully owned firearms are (and who owns them) than it is at preventing or solving any crime. Putting serial numbers on ammo has all of the same problems, except the paperwork would be worse because people purchase ammo more frequently than guns. Imagine someone breaks into your house while you are gone, and steals your serial-numbered gun and serial-numbered ammo. Then he uses them to stick up some of the local Stop-N-Rob's in your neighborhood while wearing the same gloves and ski mask he wore at your house. He fires numerous shots and reloads the gun several times, leaving fired cases in each store. After the last robbery, he dumps the gun in a storm drain, burns the gloves and mask, and catches the next flight to Tahiti. Do you really think that serial numbers on the gun or the ammo are going to help YOU? Also, 32 bits of serial number is not enough. Over a billion rounds of .22 Long Rifle are fired in the US annually. Need I say more? Since there are already natural means of positively matching bullets to guns, guns to cases, and guns to fingers, which cannot be used to falsely implicate anyone, , and since the claimed benefits of serial numbering can easily be circumvented by unscrupulous persons (in other words, CRIMINALS) I contend that serial numbers are a much better tool for facilitating a police state than for reducing crime. On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Rabid Wombat wrote: >How about just numbering the criminals? There's more room for the >numbers, there's precedent, and less specialized equipment is required. obCrypto: How about defining the "number" as an MD5 hash of the X-Y coordinates of the entry points of 15 pellets of 00 buckshot in the criminal's chest, sorted in ascending order X, Y? (ORDER BY X ASC, Y ASC) Jonathan Wienke [End of gun rant. Sorry for burning up so much list bandwidth on this, but I recently had an experience where gang members were following me around for several weeks, trying to intimidate me from testifying against some of their friends who beat the crap out of some of my neighbors with sawed-off baseball bats... "Cold, dead, fingers" and all of that.] "A conservative is a liberal who got mugged last night." --Lee Rodgers "1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" --Adolf Hitler "46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." --The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm 1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.? Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB From hal9001 at panix.com Wed Aug 7 03:20:58 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:20:58 +0800 Subject: TrustBucks In-Reply-To: <64gf4trmj9@nowhere.com> Message-ID: At 1:11 -0500 8/2/96, TrustBuckFella wrote: >Examples: Say Alice wants to pay Bob in TrustBucks, and Bob agreed to >accept payment in this form. Alice has several options for paying him. > >* Alice already has some TrustBucks( Bob ). > > Alice pays Bob. > >* The amount is small enough that Bob trusts Alice directly. > > Alice and Bob swap TrustBucks( Alice ) for TrustBucks( Bob ) > Alice pays Bob. > > I know this looks like an extra piece of complexity, but it's > really not. By insisting that only TrustBucks( Bob ) are payment > to Bob, we insure that Bob can't manipulate what currency he > will accept to his advantage, which would otherwise be a > problem. For instance, Bob cannot refuse to make good on his > debts while accepting other people's money. I fail to see why/how the initial swap of TrustBucks(Alice) for TrustBucks(Bob) followed by Alice returning the TrustBucks(Bob) [as supposed payment] differs from her just paying with the TrustBucks(Alice) in the first place [ie: He is willing to accept the TrustBucks(Alice) as payment for the TrustBucks(Bob) that she will use to pay off her debt]. The net result is the same - Bob has the same amount of TrustBucks(Bob) in circulation and has an amount of TrustBucks(Alice) equal to Alice's payment [the back and forth of the TrustBucks(Bob) is just playing "Right Pocket/Left Pocket"]. From accessnt at ozemail.com.au Wed Aug 7 03:22:35 1996 From: accessnt at ozemail.com.au (Mark Neely) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:22:35 +0800 Subject: The Solution: 20 Beautiful women Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807080312.00695a08@ozemail.com.au> Fellow Cypherpunks, Maths was never my strong point, but this response (from my statistician g/f) sounds convincing...but then, maybe I'm biased :) -----8<------- According to your friendly neighbourhood statistician (ie me) the answer can be deterined as follows: Suppose we have 20 beautiful women and we call them W1, W2 through to W20. For any given women, say Wi where 1<=i<=20, we have only two choices, choosing her or rejecting her. Knowing that she's beautiful anyway, we assume that: Probability(Choosing Wi)=Probability(Rejecting Wi)=0.5 Now, let Wn where 1<=n<=20 be the most beautiful woman, then the probability of getting the most beautiful woman is: Probability(Getting Wn) =Probability(Rejecting W1) * Probability(Rejecting W2) * Probability(Rejecting W3) * ... * Probability(Rejecting Wn-1) * Probability(Choosing Wn) =(0.5)^(n-1) * (0.5) =(0.5)^n Now we know that the value for a fraction raised to any of the valid values of n (defined above to be 1<=n<=20) can be maximised by minimising the power to which the fraction is raised. So we take the minimum possible value of n, namely n=1. Thus Probability(Getting Wn)=(0.5)^n=0.5. This gives us the highest chance of choosing the most beautiful woman. This could have been done more intuitively and less rigorously by considering the fact that when we multiply any fraction by another fraction, it always becomes a smaller fraction (and hence our probability is reduced). So you can see there is a moral in this story, can you not? I pat myself on the head. I am extremely brilliant. She who is most luscious ___ Mark Neely - accessnt at ozemail.com.au Lawyer, Internet Consultant, Professional Cynic Author: Australian Beginner's Guide to the Internet (2nd Ed.) Australian Business Guide to the Internet Internet Guide for Teachers, Students & Parents WWW: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~accessnt From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Wed Aug 7 04:12:44 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:12:44 +0800 Subject: appropriate algorithm for application Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806232209.006e2c84@gonzo.wolfenet.com> I need an algorithm/protocol that is capable of encrypting numerous files with separate keys, but there also needs to be a master key that will be able to decrypt all of them. Is there such a system that is relatively secure? I'd prefer the system to be as secure as possible, but in this application, security is secondary to functionality. Thanks... //cerridwyn// From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 04:12:55 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:12:55 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... Message-ID: <199608070259.TAA17442@toad.com> >>> Louis Freeh is now asking the Congress for $2 billion to fund >>> Digital Telephony. Yes, that is FOUR TIMES what he said it >How many crimes, approximately, are going to be solved or prevented by the >expenditure of this $2 billion dollars? One hundred? A thousand? I haven't been able to find the reference, but a month or two ago there was an article on the net or in a newspaper about the targets of wiretapping - how many wiretaps were for drugs, gambling, tax evasion, and of course terrorism. The number of wiretaps for bombs and guns was something low like 80 in the last 5-10 years - about 1/10%. (Did anybody else see this article??) On the other hand, the recent articles in the press about increasing bomb-related crimes in the US; it's up to about 3000/year from 2000 in 5 yrs. So maybe 1/10% of the bombing investigations have even used wiretapping. So why is Louis Freeh ranting up and down about the need to ban encryption because he needs wiretapping to catch terrorists? At least he could be honest and rant about the need to stop the hordes of drug dealers and escalate the War On Gambling. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 04:13:00 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:13:00 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy Message-ID: <199608070259.TAA17453@toad.com> > "Electronic mail may be monitored if there is sufficient reason to > believe that it is being improperly used which includes, but is not > limited to: mail to competitors, more than 20 recipients (spam), and > incoming mail from questionable sources. If such monitored mail is > encrypted the employee must provide a clear text version of the mail > which is to be unencrypted under supervision to avoid substitutions. > Any employee refusing to make available such mail will be ...." Official mail to competitors, the press, or customers is probably something you'd want an official copy of anyway, and the employee should be able to decide intelligently what to keep (unless your lawyers say to always keep everything, in which case the legal department should be responsible for maintaining the archives....) Incoming encrypted mail you can (presumably) get an employee to decrypt. Outgoing encrypted mail may not support that - PGP, for instance, supports an encrypt-to-self option, but if you don't use it, and didn't record the outgoing message, you _can't_ decrypt it. Writing something into a policy that will get an employee fired for refusing to do something that can't be done with the available tools is not a good idea. I'm not highly impressed with the idea of snooping on employees' mail, even if it _is_ your company. If you don't trust them, don't hire them. If you do trust them, don't eavesdrop. And if they're ripping you off and don't have the sense to sneak their sotlen data outside the building by sneakernet or other untappable mechanism, you probably should have fired them for incompetence long ago anyway. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Wed Aug 7 04:24:34 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:24:34 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: <01I7YR8ENYFK9JD1RF@mbcl.rutgers.edu> If you're wanting someone to talk on NuPrometheus, you might try Barlow.... he's already been investigated for it and doesn't seem likely to be harrassed again. Of course, _getting_ him could be a problem. -Allen From proff at suburbia.net Wed Aug 7 04:25:10 1996 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:25:10 +0800 Subject: Fixes to loop.c et al. for DES,IDEA,stego now done In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608070806.SAA26988@suburbia.net> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > This directory contains patches to the Linux kernel to enable encryption and > > steganography of filesystems. Encryption allows you to have a scrambled > > partition or file that, with the proper pass phrase, you can mount, just > > like a normal filesystem. Steganography allows you to hide a filesystem in > > the low bits of, say, an audio file. You can even combine these two to hide > > a scrambled filesystem in the low bits of an audio file (see the example, > > below). > > > > With the addition of stego, this arrangment seems to be rather similar to > CFS. So the question on my mind, is can the loop device(s) be Since when has CFS had any steganography features? -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff at suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Wed Aug 7 04:25:41 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:25:41 +0800 Subject: THE WORLD IS SCREWD UP Message-ID: <199608070617.XAA03942@jobe.shell.portal.com> At 05:02 PM 8/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >THIS WORLD IS SREWED UP i hate my life so mue hobbeys makeing time pipe >bommbs so what is this all about huh what the fuck "anti terrisiom bill" >damn sad ok so what does this mean FREE COUNTRY hahahaha i laugh when i >hear that term there is no free country and we never have a wright to >privesy u know man this sux so much....... oh and to the government u can >kiss my ass TAKE it to a shrink... not Cypherpunks! Ps. learn to spell! From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 7 04:31:11 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:31:11 +0800 Subject: Censorship through proxy Message-ID: At 18:12 8/6/96, Timothy C. May wrote: >I wonder what would happen if "Computers, Freedom, and Privacy '98" was >held in Sing Sing? We'd all get caned? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From sebago at earthlink.net Wed Aug 7 04:32:00 1996 From: sebago at earthlink.net (Allen Robinson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:32:00 +0800 Subject: "Eternity service" paper request Message-ID: <199608070146.VAA04336@norway.it.earthlink.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 06 20:53:31 1996 A couple of weeks ago Hal mentioned Ross Anderson's Eternity Service paper (URL: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk:80/users/rja14/#Lib). As Hal described it at the time: >The goal of the Eternity service is to make published information >permanently and ineradicably available, despite efforts on the part of >powerful attackers to destroy it. The attack model explicitly >includes governments. This has obvious relevance to current >controversies involving copyright, trade secrets, etc. [. . . .] >Anderson's basic concept is of a network of storage servers in widely >scattered jurisdictions. He uses cryptography so that although the >servers store data, no single computer knows exactly what is stored in >the encrypted files it holds. Keys to the data are spread across the >network using secret sharing techniques, with mutual cooperation among >the servers being necessary to decrypt files. (I believe the files >themselves are redundantly stored on individual servers, but they are >encrypted with keys which are split.) Anonymous communications are >used among the network of computers to reply to requests, so that >attackers can't tell which computer produced a requested document. At the time I thought this sounds quite interesting and filed the information away for a time when I would have an opportunity to get the paper and read it. I finally created that opportunity recently only to find the paper at the above URL in a format I have a *lot* of difficulty reading. I'm a little embarrassed to ask such a thing, but does anyone know a location where this paper resides in plain-vanilla ASCII? Many thanks. AR #%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%# "The road to tyranny, we must never forget, begins with the destruction of the truth." -- Bill Clinton, Oct. 15, 1995 at the University of Connecticut. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Allen Robinson.........................sebago at earthlink.net PGP public key FE4A0A75 available from major keyservers fingerprint 170FBC1F7609B76F 967F1CC8FCA7A41F -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgf3H3sdZ07+Sgp1AQHEYQP/cthh/U8MwguYjuDJkrMNScwCaLrBm+rv 7SJS5Oogln7ItVfMDCUGISVNABCg4gr4taqW8OnStmegZxqsYJevLu5qYVTPvdWG wPDbBu2rHfHc6aHS1am727Vv9EJTb452tlDkXQuQApH4TUh9mYUe6oIxVenKSxNC jbPGgzxgvvo= =qhoi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 7 04:34:02 1996 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:34:02 +0800 Subject: Fixes to loop.c et al. for DES,IDEA,stego now done Message-ID: <199608062350.QAA10693@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- As I mentioned before, the hooks to DES (and IDEA; with Nicholas Leon's patches) in loop.c and {mount,losetup}(8) are horribly broken. For example, the DES key you type in is totally ignored, and only the first byte of the IDEA key you enter is relevant. As well, the DES code was using PCBC mode, and IDEA was using ECB mode. I've fixed the key management (the key is based on a SHA1 hash of the pass phrase you enter), and changed both DES and IDEA to use CBC mode. Adding other encryption methods (Blowfish, for example) should be straightforward. In fact, I'm planning to add a facility for dynamically adding and removing general data transformation modules (maybe for 2.1...). In addition, I've implemented steganography (hiding a filesystem in the low bits of, say, an audio file), and fixed some assorted bugs in loop.c (incorrect variables were being used in some places, and a deadlock was fixed having to do with making a loop device on top of another loop device). The patches are available from: ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux/index.html Since that site seems to be down a lot, there's an alternate site: ftp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego/index.html Note that there's one file that contains crypto that users outside of the US and Canada must not download. See below for further details and instructions. Attached is the text version of index.html. Share and enjoy. - Ian - -----------------8<--------------------8<---------------- Encryption and Steganography for Linux This directory contains patches to the Linux kernel to enable encryption and steganography of filesystems. Encryption allows you to have a scrambled partition or file that, with the proper pass phrase, you can mount, just like a normal filesystem. Steganography allows you to hide a filesystem in the low bits of, say, an audio file. You can even combine these two to hide a scrambled filesystem in the low bits of an audio file (see the example, below). Installation instructions 1. Get a fresh copy of linux-2.0.11.tar.gz from your favourite site. 2. Patch it with the loopfix-2.0.11.patch file found in this directory. This fixes some bugs in the loop block device driver, and adds steganography support to it. Hopefully this will go into the standard kernel soon. 3. Now you want to add cryptography support. Due to a strange US regulation, this has to be split up into two pieces. The first piece, export-2.0.11.patch, doesn't actually contain any cryptograhy; it just contains the changes to the Makefiles and documentation, etc. to reflect the eventual presence of cryptography. You should get this file and patch it into the result of step 2. 4. If the site you are downloading these files from is in the US or Canada, you may only download the second piece, crypto-2.0.11.patch, if you are also in the US or Canada. If you are not, here's what's in the file, and where to get it: o The file contains the files drivers/block/idea.c, kernel/des.c, include/linux/idea.h and include/linux/des.h. o To get these files, go visit http://www.binary9.net/nicholas/linuxkernel/patches/ and get the patches des-1.0.patch and idea-1.0.patch. o Edit these patches and remove everything in them that isn't related to one of the four files listed above. o What you have left should be functionally equivalent to crypto-2.0.11.patch. 5. Take either crypto-2.0.11.patch or what you got from outside the US, and patch it into the result of step 3. 6. You now have a complete kernel. Compile as usual. You will also need an updated version of the mount and losetup commands in order to use this. To get these, download mount-2.5k from ftp://ftp.win.tue.nl/pub/linux/util/mount-2.5k.tar.gz. Then get the patch mount-2.5k.patch from this directory, and patch it into the sources. Compile and install. It would be really good if these patches to the kernel and to mount for steganography and encryption were made standard, and enabled by default. The reason for this is that it would be more suspicious for someone to have a "special" kernel with stego capabilities than to just have a regular kernel, configured in the default way. Sample encrypted and stego'd filesystem In this directory are two audio files. Alice-Bob.orig.au is a file I downloaded from http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/labs/theorique/Alice-Bob.html. The other file, Alice-Bob.au, is the same, except that it has an encrypted filesystem hidden in the low bit of each byte. You can listen to each of them, and see how much difference there is (it's just in the noise). To see the filesystem, get a new kernel and mount/losetup as descibed above. Also make sure you have loop devices in /dev/loop*, as described below. Then: # losetup -e stego /dev/loop0 Alice-Bob.au Use the low bits of each (b)yte, (s)hort, or (l)ong? (Use lowercase letters for little-endian; uppercase for big-endian.) b/s/l/B/S/L: [b] # mount /dev/loop0 /mnt -oloop,encryption=idea Pass phrase: What are we going to do tomorrow night, Brain? # ls -al /mnt total 220 drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 1024 Aug 4 10:47 ./ drwxr-xr-x 23 root root 1024 Aug 4 01:50 ../ drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 12288 Aug 4 10:46 lost+found/ - -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 71 Aug 4 10:47 passwords - -rw------- 1 root root 208247 Aug 4 10:47 world_domination_plans # umount /mnt # losetup -d /dev/loop0 Usage instructions First, make sure you have devices called /dev/loop0, /dev/loop1, ..., /dev/loop7. If not, make them as follows: # cd /dev # for i in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7; do mknod loop$i b 7 $i; done # chgrp disk /dev/loop[0-7] # chmod 660 /dev/loop[0-7] A note on choosing pass phrases: Pass phrases can be up to 128 characters long. It's in your best interests to choose a good one. Make it long, and hard to guess. There are FAQs out there on how to choose a good pass phrase, I think. Finally, here is a copy of the file Documentation/filesystems/loop_crypt.txt: Encryption and Steganography for Linux - -------------------------------------- The "loop" block device driver allows you to "hide" a filesystem in a disk partition or in a regular file, either using encryption (scrambling the data) or steganography (hiding the data in the low bits of, say, a sound file). To use this, you will need updated versions of the "mount" and "losetup" commands. They are both in the mount-2.5k, which you can get from ftp://ftp.win.tue.nl/pub/linux/util/mount-2.5k.tar.gz but you will need to patch it with the changes from ftp://ftp.csua.berkley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux/mount-2.5k.patch Also, if you want to use DES or IDEA encryption and not just XOR (which, encryptionwise, is really terrible), you'll need to get the crypto patches to the kernel. If you're in the US or Canada, you can get them from ftp://ftp.csua.berkley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux/crypto.patch Otherwise, check ftp://ftp.csua.berkley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux/index.html to see how to get them. How to use it - ------------- Here are a number of examples: To create an encrypted floppy (using IDEA): Put a floppy in drive 0. # dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/fd0 bs=1k seek=8 # losetup -e idea /dev/loop0 /dev/fd0 Pass phrase: (type a pass phrase here, up to 128 characters) # mke2fs /dev/loop0 # losetup -d /dev/loop0 To use it again: # mount /dev/fd0 /mnt -text2 -oloop,encryption=idea Pass phrase: (type the same pass phrase) # cd /mnt (use the disk) # cd / # umount /mnt To make a DES-encrypted filesystem in a regular file: Decide on a filename and how big you want your encrypted filesystem to be. Suppose you choose /root/private/rndseed as your filename, and you want it to be 10MB (10240K). Create it as follows: # dd if=/dev/urandom of=/root/private/rndseed bs=1k count=10240 # losetup -e des /dev/loop0 /root/private/rndseed Pass phrase: (type a pass phrase here, up to 128 characters) # mke2fs /dev/loop0 # losetup -d /dev/loop0 To use it: # mount /root/private/rndseed /mnt -text2 -oloop,encryption=des Pass phrase: (type the same pass phrase) # cd /mnt (use the disk) # cd / # umount /mnt There is an additional "feature" (well, _I_ think it's a feature) by which you could mount the above filesystem on /root/private, even though a file in that directory is being used to store the filesystem itself. (Note of course that the encrypted file won't be visible when the filesystem is mounted, and that only loop files don't count as "usage"; if you're _in_ that directory, or some process has any file in that directory open, the mount won't work.) To hide an IDEA-encrypted filesystem in the low bits of an audio file: Let "penguin.au" be your sound file. # losetup -e stego /dev/loop0 penguin.au Use the low bits of each (b)yte, (s)hort, or (l)ong? (Use lowercase letters for little-endian; uppercase for big-endian.) b/s/l/B/S/L: [b] (.au files store 1-byte samples, so say "b" here) # dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/loop0 bs=1k seek=8 # losetup -e idea /dev/loop1 /dev/loop0 Pass phrase: (type a pass phrase here, up to 128 characters) # mke2fs /dev/loop1 # losetup -d /dev/loop1 # losetup -d /dev/loop0 And to use it: # losetup -e stego /dev/loop0 penguin.au Use the low bits of each (b)yte, (s)hort, or (l)ong? (Use lowercase letters for little-endian; uppercase for big-endian.) b/s/l/B/S/L: [b] (.au files store 1-byte samples, so say "b" here) # mount /dev/loop0 /mnt -text2 -oloop,encryption=idea Pass phrase: (type a pass phrase here, up to 128 characters) # cd /mnt (read secret info from files here) # cd / # umount /mnt # losetup -d /dev/loop0 Note: if you don't have /dev/urandom, do this: # cd /dev # mknod random c 1 8 # mknod urandom c 1 9 # chown root.root random urandom # chmod 666 random urandom Last update: 19960806 by Ian Goldberg This work derives from work by a number of people, including: Werner Almesberger Andries Brouwer Ian Goldberg Nicholas J. Leon Theodore Ts'o Eric Young - -----------------8<--------------------8<---------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgfZsEZRiTErSPb1AQGf9wP8Cu0h79vowZVME3dJGhCQM8AbelCOHEck O51uZ6o5Fwv3mPsZ0E15IyYns1mLYT4slWQ2VY2vEoTsT6pM4og+45/ZP3aRJh5i mBgNulbRvxf/eqlmDBT6433JFrdAVAWHwGcMFTUXewHQJZ3x4WyIzvk1hHv++OGo jn96Pbr71Qs= =13QI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jya at pipeline.com Wed Aug 7 04:35:36 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:35:36 +0800 Subject: Apple people on the list Message-ID: <199608062315.XAA27999@pipe5.t1.usa.pipeline.com> I'd like to hear Tim, too, in this Big Apple. RealAudio, perhaps. Tim's views are far more substantial and worthwhile than those play-it-safe Pro-Code dronings. And his pith should go out far and wide, around the world, not only out there on its edge. Vinnie, Robert, All Appledom, do your global duty, don't miss this chance to leapfrog the small-beans promoters of the crypto industry. What would you offer to set off Tim's simmering crypto-anarcho-volcano, make it heard round the planet? From nozefngr at mail.apple.com Wed Aug 7 04:50:54 1996 From: nozefngr at mail.apple.com (Christopher Hull) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:50:54 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: <199608070210.TAA12996@scv1.apple.com> > >I, for one, would appreciate the chance to hear Tim May present >"crypto-anarchy" and "crypto-privacy" -- in a much more coherent fashion > >Vinnie is putting the "Mac Crypto" conference together in his spare >time using "borrowed" facilities in a way that stays below Apple's >"radar horizon". Ah, so I'm not the only one who makes nefarious use of R&D4 (Burning Man, Mike Jittlov, and other pseudo-events) ;-) Looking forward to it. > >As for the "Mac is dead," I'll leave that to another time and place. The press is a little difficult to believe when they come out with nonsense like "Apple is finally upgrading an aging product line". Excuse me? Yes, the last new Mac one could buy was the IIfx? San Jose Mercury News, A Division of Microsoft Press. (I wonder if I should extend the Shakespeare award beyond the net). -Chris .. But there *are* a million monkees on the net, .. and I still aint seen no Shakespeare! ... ... smtp: nozefngr at apple.com .. page: 1.800.680.7351 .. http: http://virtual.net/Personal/nozefngr/ .. icbm: lat37*21'.lon121*5' .. .. the kabuki project: http://remarque.berkeley.edu/kabuki/ From vinnie at webstuff.apple.com Wed Aug 7 05:08:59 1996 From: vinnie at webstuff.apple.com (Vinnie Moscaritolo) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:08:59 +0800 Subject: Mac Crypto/ internet commerce workshop registration Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----BY SAFEMAIL 1.0----- Attention: I have setup a webpage to handle registrations for the Mac Crypto/ internet commerce workshop. http://webtuff.apple.com/~opentpt/crypto.html please signup and book your airlines and hotel as soon as you can. I am still looking for presenters, if you plan to talk, please drop me an outline, pronto ciao -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----BY SAFEMAIL 1.0----- Version: 2.6.i iQCVAwUBMggHRfMF2+rAU+UdAQEocwQAi347wC62qlgoV0E8nL2E57beK0Uo3fjo 0ZYSYSwu0zOdF9gqGyBfM0ZEHFGh9CEiJik3JCKww4B4Pl6HVWjm9Ay1DN4IqdOo fvanrRRJXcBi00HnyaJmjq9jIrsGoH6nZ3sxM58yaldm/6iVuKezhgBprPF0WwOr aq9NPOZaePg= =Zm8+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Vinnie Moscaritolo Apple Developer Tech Support http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 05:14:12 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:14:12 +0800 Subject: Digital Telephony costs $2 Message-ID: <199608070602.XAA21713@toad.com> At 11:34 PM 8/5/96 -0800, you wrote: >What is unclear, however, is WHY they "had to" build a card that couldn't do >full-duplex. I mean, would there have been a problem implementing that? Or >was this just another one of those stupid design decisions which could have >been easily fixed if it had been realized in time? 1) Costs money - especially critical if you're trying to either - get a new product accepted by the market (when they were becoming popular) or - compete in a me-too market (after they became popular and costs came way down.) 2) DSPs tend to be really tight on resources, especially RAM, which you need to do multiple programs at once. $5-10 DSPs are especially tight. They're starting to come with mini operating systems. 3) They probably didn't think of Internet Telephony as a market - They were PC folks, and while _we_ all knew about the Internet, it was probably 1/4 as big as now and earlier on the hype curve - It's only been recently that soundcards have been ubiquitous enough for people to assume they're there for a product like Internet phone - 28.8 modems are fast enough. 14.4 are marginal. 9.6 is _really_ marginal. 4) Most of their market wants other things - MIDI, game noises, talking applications, occasional recording and sound processing. Voice crunching is mostly used for answering machines and fancy voice-response telephony units "Press 1 if you want to Press 2." >> It also has the advantage >>that the data is being moved through your CPU, so encryption is >>an easy add-on, rather than having one combined modem/voiceblaster >>card which doesn't have any hooks for crypto or other processing. >Well, I assume that if implemented as a new type of modem card, the >processor can be used to do the data transfer. If you're doing the voice crunching and A/D conversion and telephony all on the modem card, with everything tightly integrated to fit in your tiny cache, why put in hooks for the processor to intervene? >>Given that the "3KHz" is almost universally transmitted over 64kbps >>digital channels, there's really no point in pushing past 33.6 with >>analog-based coding; better to just do ISDN. > >The local phonecos still want to overcharge for ISDN, however. Major >bigtime problem. ISDN looked great back in about 1980 when the fastest >common modem was 300 baud, but it's lost much of its lustre competing >against 33.6 kbps. Maybe if ISDN were available at a premium of $5 per >month or so... Depends on the telco. Here in PacBell's fiefdom, home ISDN costs only a bit more than two voice lines, and you get two lines out of it. Local calls are a penny or four a minute daytime, free at night. This may change soon - the telco is appalled to find out that computer people think "it's free at night" means "it's free at night" :-) There's getting to be enough ISDN support that an ISDN-based phone program might find some market - especially if it can use higher sampling rates and ADPCM compression to get better sound out of 56-64 kbps than a regular phone can, and maybe you could support a shared-whiteboard program as well. Still need to do something about echo control, though. However, I wouldn't recommend writing a free encrypted ISDN telephone program, though - you wouldn't be able to export that on the Internet. But a phone program that lets users plug in their own algorithms for echo control, with an API that supports exchanging parameters - now _that_ would be a phone program. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From pjn at nworks.com Wed Aug 7 05:14:32 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:14:32 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Interna Message-ID: (There is a really good joke in my response. Try to figure it out. Be the first one on your block to realize what the numbers mean) In> Anyone know what J. Edgar Hoover's SSN was? Yeah, 276-77-3737 P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... Hey, Worf! I hooked Data up to a modem... Wanna see? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 05:24:07 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:24:07 +0800 Subject: Stealth cookies Message-ID: <199608070259.TAA17434@toad.com> At 03:48 PM 8/5/96 -0400, Anne Eisenberg wrote: >All of the discussion on the list to do with >cookies is related to Netscape. Does this mean that if one switches to >Microsoft Explorer one can avoid the problem? Many thanks. MSIE also does cookies. Netscape 3.0b5 has a nice option to let you choose whether to accept a cookie or not. However, what's the problem you're trying to solve? Sites have several ways to find out information about you, which they can use immediately or coordinate with other things 0) Stuff the site knows about itself, like contents and time 1) Stuff you tell them by filling in forms 2) Your IP address (not always very useful...) 3) Information your browser sends (somewhat adjustable.) 4) Information your browser sends that a site asked you to keep for it (i.e. cookies.) For the most part, this doesn't leak a lot of information; even cookies can only pass things the sites already knew between sessions. The cookie spec is well-designed, only allowing cookies to be retrieved by the machine or domain that set them in the first place. However, there's a way to cheat the cookie spec; I don't know if this was intentional, but it was realized quickly by the market :-) The issue is that your browser sends along an HTTP_REFERRER variable, which points to the last page you visited before the current page. It's useful for sites to find out where their pages are being referenced, and they may (legitimately) want to only give out information if you're coming from one of their previous pages. This does also mean that a page (www.alice.com/interesting.html) can hand its name to another page or program (www.bob.com/cgi/count-stuff.pl) by including an inline reference to it. But that site can send your browser a cookie marked bob.com, which is accessible by _it_, not by the referring page. This means that if you later connect to www.carol.com/foo.html, which references bob's count-stuff program, bob.com can retrieve the bob.com cookie that has information about your connection to alice.com. If alice.com and bob.com store some identifying information (e.g. alice.com records a connection from 192.9.200.1 at 12:34:59 UTC, and bob.com records a connection from 192.9.200.1 at 12:35:01 UTC, and bob.com stores a reference to that in the cookie (either storing the information directly, or more likely, storing a record-id number referencing a database entry, and carol.com and bob.com similarly share a reference, then alice, bob, and carol can coordinate what happened in the two sessions. Maybe Bob just knows that there's market correlation between viewers of Alice's Brownie Company and Carol's Congressional Consulting, or maybe they also share the credit card number, flavors, and addresses you gave alice.com with the search criteria you gave carol.com to find you've been donating special brownies to that congresscritter you've been lobbying. Without the cookie hack, the ability to correlate is limited to the common information that you've given the two sites, which tells them that some Netcom user with Mozilla 3.2b7.7 did it, which isn't enough to run a targeted campaign donation request or send out the FBI or whatever. Doubleclick.com is the site that's wellknown for exploiting the feature, and their web site is interesting. If you're using 3.0b5, try different combinations of accepting or rejecting cookie requests.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 7 05:27:39 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:27:39 +0800 Subject: Phill's evil twin Skippy In-Reply-To: <199608062350.QAA18315@web.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: At 7:50 PM -0400 8/6/96, David M. Rose wrote: > Oh goody! Another Hallam-Baker-generated p*ssing contest. Perhaps you > fellows should settle your differences with a bet. Oops, I forgot. The good > "Doc" dishonors his wagers with a series of fantastic and infantile > "misunderstandings". The weirdest thing happened to me today. (Nooo, not *that* wierd thing, something *else*.) A gentleman proporting to be Phill Hallam-Baker (at least his check said so, and they actually *do* clear...) showed up at the DCSB meeting and had lunch. Very pleasant guy. Quite civil, if a little bit statist, and way too Hegelian for my blood... Frankly, I think someone's *spoofing* Dr. Hallam-Baker, on the net or in person. I can't figure out which one's which. Anyone have some theories on this? Does he have an evil twin Skippy? The world wants to know. Will the real Phillip Hallam-Baker please stand up and thottle your evil twin? Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 7 05:33:40 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:33:40 +0800 Subject: Apple people on the list Message-ID: At 16:15 8/6/96, John Young wrote: >What would you offer to set off Tim's simmering crypto-anarcho-volcano, >make it heard round the planet? Bottle o' Scotch (my private stash). Free Ecash account. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From janee at okway.okstate.edu Wed Aug 7 05:35:29 1996 From: janee at okway.okstate.edu (Steve Coltrin) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:35:29 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) Message-ID: <20758330@Okway.okstate.edu> Simon Spero wrote: >one silly thought: lots of people use cypherpunks as the username and >password for all those websites that want an id. What about a cypherpunks >3-2-4 number for those cases where an SSN isn't appropriate. Anyone know >what J. Edgar Hoover's SSN was? According to one of "George Hayduke"'s books, Richard Nixon's was 567-68-0515. -spc From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 7 05:41:24 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:41:24 +0800 Subject: Talking about Crypto Anarchy Message-ID: I'm going to use John's comments as a jumping off point for some things I probably should have said a while ago. At 11:15 PM 8/6/96, John Young wrote: >I'd like to hear Tim, too, in this Big Apple. RealAudio, perhaps. > >Tim's views are far more substantial and worthwhile than those play-it-safe >Pro-Code dronings. > >And his pith should go out far and wide, around the world, not only out >there on its edge. > >Vinnie, Robert, All Appledom, do your global duty, don't miss this chance >to leapfrog the small-beans promoters of the crypto industry. > >What would you offer to set off Tim's simmering crypto-anarcho-volcano, >make it heard round the planet? As I think I made clear, there is little either Vinnie or Bob have "failed" to do. I'll explain this below. It is true that I am not much of a fan of Bob's writing style, with nuggets of truth buried in bloviations about sacks of grenades, rubber rafts, shaking trees, pieces of the true cross, ad nauseum, but, then, "style" is something I tend to react to perhaps more than most. (Not the variations in style of the hundreds of folks who post here, but the florid excesses so common in "neo-journalism," where it seems the writers are paid by the word--as perhaps they are--and wrap their few nuggets in stock phrases and cutesy pastiches of Chandler, Wolfe, Gibson, Joyce, and the whole Sick Crew. Back to important issues. Let me summarize: 1. A while back there was an announcement (I thought by Vinnie, but he denied it to me) of a "Mac Crypto" mailing list. This announcement, which I no longer have (not in my own archives, and not in the few CP archives that seem to still be reachable on the Web) mentioned that the list would focus on "real" cryptography, and _not_ on political issues (including, presumably, the main topics that have motivated my contributions for the past several years, and longer). Fair enough, as the owner/maintainer of a list is free to set his policies. I of course did not join this list, as I don't think a list which only discussed quadratic residues and elliptic curve methods is exactly my cup of tea...there are plenty of textbooks and other lists for this. 2. So, when Vinnie sent me his "Mac Crypto Needs You!" mini-rant, my natural conservatism toward such things kicked in. I am not, as must be clear now, one of those "Rah rah rah! We need to evangelize crypto!" folks. I take a neo-Calvinist position on such things. Hustling memes is distasteful to me. (Some will say my posts here are an attempt to sell my ideas. Fair enough, but this is a forum I find acceptable.) 3. I told Vinnie I was not interested, that giving a "pep talk" to Mac developers is not my thing, and that if my views on politics, crypto anarchy, the undermining of governments, money-laundering as a tool of liberation, etc., were not deemed acceptable for his list, then I would not feel welcome at Apple Computer talking about the same. (In his reply, he said he'd never said any such thing about politics not being welcome on Mac Crypto....I could have sworn I saw such a thing, but, like I said, I can't find this message anywhere I've looked.) 4. Blah blah blah. That is, you saw my longer article I sent to Vinnie, explaining why I was not too interested. I won't repeat the points here. 5. I thought the subject was closed, as Vinnie then said that perhaps I was _not_ the right person after all. I agree with this. I am not an "evangelist," at least not one in the mold of the ever-bubbly Guy Kawasaki. Nor am I in the mold of a Robert Hettinga. Maybe I'm more like H.L. Mencken, or, at least I'd like to be. Evangelists disgust me. I can't read anything Kawasaki gibbers about, nor can I read the neo-journalism of "Spencer Katt," "Mac the Knife," or "Robert X. Cringely." (If you don't recognize these names, these are the terminally-hip gossip columnists and "rumormongers" of the three leading trade rags. The style is pretty similar to that used by Brock Meeks, Robert Hettinga, and the like.) Now on the the Big Issue. 6. I've given up on discussing crypto anarchy in short talks because nearly nobody in the audiences I've done it for has the foggiest notions of what I'm talking about, and I've found no short, sweet, simple methods of getting across the implications. Many audiences have no idea of how public key encryption even works, let alone how digital money might work. (Thus, panel discussions on "cryptography" bog down almost immmediately on basic issues. There's no way to get to the "juicy" stuff when 20 minutes is spent trying to educate an audience about what a prime number is!) Consider how long it takes a new subscriber on this list, one who presumably heard about this list from a background of some familiarity with the idea of encryption, to get to the point of understanding what the terms and phrases in my sig mean. I'd say it takes at least several weeks, with detours into Schneier to read up on the basics, and some mental effort to think through how anonymous remailers work, what digital money might mean for tax collection, etc. Even at the Hacker's Conference, which I last attended in 1993, the discussions of cryptography were deeply unsatisfying to me. My panel, on crypto, bogged down in trying to get across to a technically pretty competent audience the implications of strong crypto. Clearly, the hour or so we had was not enough, and people could only get the barest glimpses. 7. In several radio talk shows I have done, the same is true. Given that there just isn't enough time for a careful explication of the necessary background, the discussion and the questions from callers to the show stay at the most basic level. While I am not dismissing the importance of basic questions, it's clear that the discussion can never move on. Thus, discussions tend to never get beyond the "think of crypto as envelopes...would you want your messages all on postcards?" level. (This envelope-postcard analogy is of course due to Phil Z., and he seems more comfortable than I in giving this kind of talk over and over again.) 8. Even articles in "Liberty" and "Reason" magazines (plus more obscure magazines like "Extropy") have to spend most of the article explaining the basics, ending with a glimpse into a few topics of more recent vintage. Mostly, it is hopeless to get into "crypto anarchy," when the article is about how public key encryption works. (Note: This observation is part of a larger issue about the difficulties of building on past work. It is why so many fractious debates never get beyond the opening salvos...over and over again. The debate over nuclear power (or gun rights, or...) comes to mind, and I have, as with crypto anarchy, given up on trying to "convince" groups of the truth of my views: nearly everyone I talk to is so ignorant of the basics of radiation, containment, half lives, ionizing radiation damage, alternatives, etc., that all discussions bog down at the most basic of levels. When I used to have the energy--and the foolishness--to bend someone's ear about nuclear power for a couple of hours, I could _sometimes_ see the glimmerings of a change in positions, the flicker of a change in preconceived notions. Mostly there was only blankness and hostility. I get the same reaction when I try to explain the techno-libertarian implications of strong cryptography.) 9. So, while John Young and others might want like that my "pith should go out far and wide, around the world, not only out there on its edge," the plain fact is that it can't go out in a talk lasting only a few hours, or, much more likely, lasting less than an hour. Certain after dinner speakers are adept at getting one or maybe two simple points across in a talk--usually with some judicious humor to drive the point home--but I am not one of them. Maybe one of you is, but not me. In any case, getting "one or two ideas across" is not of much interest to me. (I've also seen David Chaum struggle to just get the basic idea of "credentials without identity" across to a tecnical audience...even when he concentrates on only getting a single facet of his ideas across, the light bulbs just don't go off in the heads of the audience members...at least this was what I witnessed.) I know there are some lawyers and law professors on this list, so the analogy to law might be useful. To wit, can a lawyer or professor be expected to really explain to a lay audience some complicated subject? Or is a series of ground-laying lectures needed first? While there are presumably lawyers willing to give pleasant after-dinner speeches on, say, "tort reform," I suspect that very little information is conveyed to lay audiences. (And, as I've said, I am not a talented dinner speaker.) 10. Finally, I am not a "motivational coach." I don't give pep talks to people at companies to help them save their companies, or their platforms. Thus, I am not interested in giving a "go out and win one for the Gipper!" pep talk at Apple. I hope this makes things clearer. And bear in mind that I actually _did_ spend a vast amount of my time putting together a compendium of my thoughts and ideas in my "Cyphernomicon." [ URL: http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/ ] At more than a megabyte, and with various chapters on crypto anarchy, anonymous markets, remailers, and all sorts of implications, it is the fullest embodiment of my thinking extant in any one place. Some say it would make for a start on a book, but I can't see any publishers rushing to publish such a book (one publisher asked me to "submit a proposal" for a book on how to use PGP...this is the level of what publishers want from me...needless to say, I discarded his business card immediately). And so it goes. I'm not interested in giving a pep talk to Apple or its developers, I outlined my reasons in other messages. And I don't believe there's any way to adequately explain the collection of ideas I call "crypto anarchy" in much less than a lecture series. Even if someone were to sponsor or arrange such a lecture series, as has been done for things like nanotechnology, I'd have to think long and hard about committing to this. My inclination is to tell those who ask for such a talk or lecture series to "RTFM." Regards, --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From frissell at panix.com Wed Aug 7 05:43:31 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:43:31 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806235136.0092c204@panix.com> At 05:16 PM 8/5/96 -0400, hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: >Making that argument defeats your case. Irespective of the framers >of the constitution nobody in Congress or the Administration believes >that you have a right to take up arms against the government. Have you checked with Helen Chenoweth (R-Idaho) or B1-Bob Dornan (R-Orange County) about this assertion. Not to mention our former black radical friend from Oakland in Congress. I bet you could find a fair number of supporters for the concept of the "right of revolution" in Congress and other parts of the government. Better hunting on Usenet, of course. When former Idaho congressman and senator Steve Syms was first running for Congress, his slogan was "Traditionally, Americans have had three means of preserving their freedoms. The jury box, the ballot box and -- when those failed -- the cartridge box." In addition it seems to me that a certain "Mobe" leader and campus revolutionary made it as far as the White House (or was he just spying for the Company at the time?). (Mobe = Student Mobilization Committee to End the War in Vietnam) Try not to say "no one believes X". That statement can always be falsified and usually with thousands of counter examples. DCF "Article 1 Section 1 of the Constitution of the State of Oregon - All power is inherent in the people and it is their right to alter or abolish the government whenever they believe it necessary or appropriate to do so." >From memory but that's the substance of what it says. From hal9001 at panix.com Wed Aug 7 05:51:43 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:51:43 +0800 Subject: TrustBucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 19:11 -0500 8/3/96, TrustBuckFella wrote: >I'll explain Private Currency and why it's good and bad. In Private >Currency you don't "buy the [money] someplace". You mint it when paying. IOW Electronic IOUs/Markers. >Restraint on double-spending: Each participant publishes a list of the > ID and value all outstanding TrustBucks of their own variety. Value > of the notes can be obscured so it can only be verified by someone > who has seen the note itself. > > What if some participant doesn't publish a complete list? Well, who > are they robbing? People who directly trusted them for that amount > and now won't ever again. If the value is obscured there is still no verification of how much they have outstanding. So long as all of the TrustBucks are listed (with the amounts listed correctly but obscured), there is no way to verify that the claimed total is accurate unless you monitor their list before the swap and after it and there is only one new TrustBuck listed (with the correct amount added to the outstanding total). Listing phony $0 notes on the list and removing them later (and dropping the claimed outstanding balance) would be possible. With this method, anyone who I give my note to will see the correct amount in THOSE notes as well as seeing the outstanding balance go up the correct amount but that amount can be manipulated (as I stated) due to there being no complete disclosure of the amounts. From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 7 05:55:53 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:55:53 +0800 Subject: Censorship through proxy Message-ID: <199608070331.UAA03775@mail.pacifier.com> At 06:12 PM 8/6/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >Sing Sing (the country is now a prison, so...) is one of the states we >should think about targetting for "special attention." Not in the sense of >violence, but in the sense of offering help to freedom fighters, those who >want to use stego, web proxies, etc. > >I wonder what would happen if "Computers, Freedom, and Privacy '98" was >held in Sing Sing? A friend of mine, who occasionally visits Singapore on business, told me this Singaporean joke: "Singapore is a fine place. There's a fine for this, and a fine for that,..." Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 06:00:56 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:00:56 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <199608070259.TAA17424@toad.com> At 07:37 PM 8/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >Personally, I don't care. In fact, when employing gardeners and yard works >I prefer Mexicans. But the law says, these days, that I must verify the >legality of workers *if* they appear to be dark-skinned, Mexican, Latin, or >the like. I say "if" because there are no requirements in general for >white-skinned, Anglo workers....no work permits, no proofs of citizenship >(such a document is currently lacking in the American pantheon...I, a mixed >descendant of Mayflower colonist and Scandinavian immigrants, lack such >"proof"). If you're _employing_ Anglos, you're currently required to disrespect their honesty and demand proof that their papers are in order to fill out the I-9 form. There's a list of "one from column A or one from columns B and C" of acceptable papers, such as passports, birth certificates, driver's licenses, US Military ID, etc., which the government uses to determine whether they want to give you permission to hire them and give them permission to work. If you don't have these, you can join the Army, and they'll give you some papers. I hope you weren't Un-American enough to be born at home, though - without that government-issued birth certificate, the Army won't be able to verify your age. None of that is really proof of citizenship - after all, you could have renounced your US citizenship and become stateless or joined a foreign government. But President Buchanan's loyalty oath requirements should take care of that, as well as help with the problem of all these immigrant Brits and Irish and Canadians flooding our shores - I mean, look around you, they're everywhere. Y'all can't walk into a 7-11 these days without some clerk speaking funny-soundin' English at you. And the reason you can't legally just hire contractors and not have them count as employees has a lot to do with Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ), who made a lot of money running ADP, a computer-services bodyshop, that wanted to preserve its advantages against more flexible competition. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 7 06:08:40 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:08:40 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806103803.0090e254@panix.com> Message-ID: Duncan Frissell writes: > At 12:06 AM 8/6/96 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote: > > >I have found that promising to provide the necessary docs, and then failing > to do so, is the least confrontational and most effective way around this. > > > >"Delay is the deadliest form of denial" > > Works for me as well. Likewise, self employment. That's the key word here - I don't think you need I-9 if you get paid on 1099 or equivalent. However for W-4 employment, the emplyer must send a signed I-9 to los federales. Otherwise the computer will flag this situation and they'll get a letter asking why they pay wages to someone whose I-9 isn't on file. I suppose when the person is "obviously" U.S.-born, the h.r. people might lie and say on I-9 that they saw a document. Then again, I've seen folks who looked and spoke more American (or German-Swiss, or Romanian) than most natives. :-) By the way, another advantage of 1099 is that if you have your corporation, you give its EIN, not your SSN to the clients, whom you don't necessarily want to know your SSN. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org Wed Aug 7 06:10:50 1996 From: sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:10:50 +0800 Subject: "lite" version of cpunks available? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Steve Reid wrote: > Are there any filtered versions of the Cypherpunks mailing list available? > I'm currently subscribed to cypherpunks-d at gateway.com, but that machine is > down and I haven't received anything in the past few days. Yes, I run one of them. To subscribe send a message to sunder at dorsai.org with the subject "fcpunx subscribe" (no quotes.) Do not reply to this message as the perl scripts that handle these tasks ignore messages from mailing lists. For more info see: http:/www.dorsai.org/~sunder/crypto.html ========================================================================== + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder at dorsai.org|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| --------------- |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | Just Say "No" to|KA|law abridging the freedom of speech' |==\|/== + v + | Janet Reno & GAK|AK| do you not understand? |======= ===================http://www.dorsai.org/~sunder/========================= Key Escrow Laws are the mating calls of those who'd abuse your privacy! From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Wed Aug 7 06:29:30 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:29:30 +0800 Subject: Stealth cookies Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960806171618.00a52aec@vertexgroup.com> At 12:10 AM 8/6/96 -0700, you wrote: >John F. Fricker wrote: >> Solution? >> >> 1) Don't put your name in the netscape configuration (d'oh) > > No, no, no. Netscape navigator does not reveal your name or >put it into cookies. The only way to get your name or other >personal information about you into a cookie is for you to type >it into a web site, and have that site send you back a cookie. > > The only time we reveal your name is in e-mail headers, and >when doing anonymous FTP when you have manually disabled the default >of sending 'mozilla@' as the anon ftp password. > > --Jeff > Oh I was just being paranoid I guess. There used to be JavaScript that would automatically send email from a page. something like

But even if that still works it would be a good trick to associate it with a cookie. From nobody at REPLAY.COM Wed Aug 7 06:31:11 1996 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:31:11 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy Message-ID: <199608070312.FAA27390@basement.replay.com> I used to work for a company which had a surprisingly liberal policy about e-mail.The gist of it was: "Private e-mail will not be read by anyone other than the recipient. The only exceptions to this are: 1) Systems personnel may examine mail messages to determine if the mail system is working correctly; [e.g., checking mail logs against users' mailbox contents to verify delivery] 2) [basically said e-mail would be treated like any other system files in the event of a criminal investigation, etc.]" The policy specifically required authorization from the line VP for either of these actions, and reinforced that the systems people were to treat the e-mail as administratively confidential data. The only time I heard of anyone even asking for e-mail was when a project manager wanted a copy of a message that a sponsor sent to one of his subordinates, who was on vacation. The systems folks cited the policy, the line VP backed them up, and the manager went away empty-handed. (He wound up calling the subordinate at her hotel and browbeating her into authorizing the computer center folks to forward a copy of the message to the manager. But that's another story.) From sandfort at crl.com Wed Aug 7 06:31:31 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:31:31 +0800 Subject: THAT BRIT AGAIN Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, Phillll came up with an excellent weasel this time. He's offered to "bet" on the Foresight Exchange. The relevant part of their FAQ says: How is FX different from a bookie? Besides the obvious fact that FX isn't real money, it differs from placing bets with a bookie in that FX is a market. In other words, it really isn't a bet at all. Instead of putting his money where his mouth is, Phillll has decided to put his mouth where his mouth is once again. Nice try guy. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 7 06:33:54 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:33:54 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806044723.01073e4c@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) writes: > Hmmm. Actually a long time ago I lost my job with Greenpeace out of refusal > to sign an I-9 which was in '86 the Department of Justice's form to exhibit > eligibility to work in the US. The form required that I present two pieces > of photo identification or a driver's license to be authenticated by my > employer. Maybe it's a CA state law that adds an additional skin tone > criterium to for the filing of an I-9. I-9 lists the documents that can be accepted as 1) proof of identity, 2) proof of the right to work in the U.S. A U.S. passport can be used for both. When I need to fill out the I-9, I simply present my passport. (Before I had the passport, I used to present my naturaliation certificate, which is also acceptable.) A driver's licence is not sufficient because it only proves your identify, but doesn't prove that you're allowed to have a job. There are classes of aliens who are allowed to drive, but aren't allowed to work - e.g., students on J-1 visa. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From declan at eff.org Wed Aug 7 06:37:41 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:37:41 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <199608060439.VAA25581@netcom22.netcom.com> Message-ID: Mike's post reminds me of the latest maneuvering here in DC. The Hatch simulated "child porn" bill was reported out of the Senate judiciary committee favorably, with the addition of language making it a felony to *attempt* to view child porn. This wording is aimed at the Net: "Click Here to see Young Girls in Lust." -Declan On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Mike Duvos wrote: > > The producers of the geriatric porn film "Grandma Does Grandpa", > and the popular sequel, "Grandma Does Grandpa II", must show at > the beginning of the film the address where the legally required > affidavits proving that Grandma and Grandpa are over 18 years of > age are available for inspection. > > If they fail to do this, of course, they are child pornographers, > and may fork over many decades of their lives and hundreds of > thousands of their dollars towards the official government > crusade to protect our nation's youth from exploitation. > > The fact that Grandma and Grandpa are obviously within mere > months of buying the farm does nothing to mitigate their offense, > should they decide that the law is not worth bothering with. > > "What are you in for?" > > "Child Porn." > > "How old were the kids?" > > "In their mid 70s." > > "Ewwwwwww. That's sick man! You're disgusting." > > :) > > -- > Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ > mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From sunder at amanda.dorsai.org Wed Aug 7 06:45:52 1996 From: sunder at amanda.dorsai.org (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:45:52 +0800 Subject: "lite" version of cpunks available? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Steve Reid wrote: > Are there any filtered versions of the Cypherpunks mailing list available? > I'm currently subscribed to cypherpunks-d at gateway.com, but that machine is > down and I haven't received anything in the past few days. Um, I saw that you attempted to subscribe, however you have to put "fcpunx subscribe" in the SUBJECT, not the body of the message. I'm not running majordomo. :) ========================================================================== + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder at dorsai.org|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| --------------- |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | Just Say "No" to|KA|law abridging the freedom of speech' |==\|/== + v + | Janet Reno & GAK|AK| do you not understand? |======= ===================http://www.dorsai.org/~sunder/========================= Key Escrow Laws are the mating calls of those who'd abuse your privacy! From frissell at panix.com Wed Aug 7 06:48:40 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:48:40 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807101317.00928848@panix.com> At 07:38 PM 8/6/96 -0400, hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: >which such a claim was made. As for the UK laws, there is >practically no defense against a libel claim that one can >file in court. There is absolutely no basis on which to >justify them. This is why the Singapore government uses them >as a form of censorship. There was a recent US appeals court decision in which an attempt to enforce a UK libel judgment was rejected on First Amendment grounds. The court refused to allow the application of UK law here. DCF From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 07:25:14 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:25:14 +0800 Subject: Anonymous Remailers at work Message-ID: <199608070405.VAA19000@toad.com> One of the big problems with remailers is getting them deployed widely. How can we create a demand for the service that will encourage people to both (a) deploy them and (b) think of them as good rather than bad? Aside from cypherpunks, spammers, and everyone using anon.penet.fi, there aren't really a lot of people familiar with them. I've recently run into a couple of business problems at work that could be solved by (slightly modified) remailers. 1) Manager performance review, suggestion boxes, and questions to visiting honchos - there are several departments that are using "email to the secretary who'll take your name off and forward it" to handle this problem. Remailers are an obvious solution. (More obvious if we weren't using (gack, phfft!) Microsoft Mail :-) It would probably be worth modifying the remailer to use a permit-list as well as a block-list for destinations and maybe sources, so that companies don't get surprised by outside spammers, and people can get used to using the things at work. Distribute the thing as an OmbudsKit or whatever. You'd obviously want the default to be non-logging. 2) Sending sensitive email across the real Internet - between customers, and for those days that the departmental dialup mail server or remote LAN access isn't working and you need to send something from home or on the road. A standard remailer would do the job, though you'd probably want to add a permit-list, and you might want to add logging and/or return receipts. Mail to pgprelay at foobar.com and it distributes it.... (Requires putting a key somewhere well-known, like in DNS or on the key servers.) (Hmmm - an alternative implementation is to use a CGI script to do the mailing and use SSL; some companies may find this easier to deploy, depending on their firewall configurations.) (Does it make sense to deploy something like this as a standard feature of an IPSP gateway system like John's?) Any other reasons to install anonymous remailers at work, and things you'd do to make them more attractive or less scary to corporate network administrative types? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com #
Defuse Authority! From hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 7 07:26:20 1996 From: hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu (hallam at Etna.ai.mit.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:26:20 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9608062338.AA01808@Etna.ai.mit.edu> >One of the ways UK and US laws differ is in regard to defamation. >In the US, truth is a defense. In the UK it is not. Phill may >have a tough time prevailing with such a suit. In the first place cypherpunks is distributed in the UK. That means I can issue a writ in the UK. Secondly I deny Alan's claim that I have contravened the US imigration laws. Since I am not a public figure the burden of proof is upon Alan to prove his claim. I know an awful lot about the US libel laws after having spent time assisting in a complicated criminal investigation during which such a claim was made. As for the UK laws, there is practically no defense against a libel claim that one can file in court. There is absolutely no basis on which to justify them. This is why the Singapore government uses them as a form of censorship. Phill From schryver at radiks.net Wed Aug 7 07:29:49 1996 From: schryver at radiks.net (Scott Schryvers) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:29:49 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608071019.FAA15721@sr.radiks.net> NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. PGP encrypted mail preferred. E-Mail me for my key. Scott J. Schryvers From frissell at panix.com Wed Aug 7 07:41:19 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:41:19 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now ... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807110349.0090e5f4@panix.com> At 07:59 PM 8/6/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >I haven't been able to find the reference, but a month or two ago >there was an article on the net or in a newspaper about the targets >of wiretapping - how many wiretaps were for drugs, gambling, tax evasion, >and of course terrorism. The number of wiretaps for bombs and guns >was something low like 80 in the last 5-10 years - about 1/10%. > (Did anybody else see this article??) Gilmore has a chart on wiretap use in various crimes in his Brain Tennis match on Wired: http://www.hotwired.com/braintennis/96/32/index0a.html DCF From frissell at panix.com Wed Aug 7 07:44:14 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:44:14 +0800 Subject: Censorship through proxy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807101315.0091e068@panix.com> At 06:12 PM 8/6/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >Sing Sing (the country is now a prison, so...) is one of the states we >should think about targetting for "special attention." Not in the sense of >violence, but in the sense of offering help to freedom fighters, those who >want to use stego, web proxies, etc. I've been thinking of starting a "How to Defeat a Government page to pull together some of the anti-Sysadmin resources on the Net. "Your government -- just a rouge sysadmin." >I wonder what would happen if "Computers, Freedom, and Privacy '98" was >held in Sing Sing? It would be smaller going out than coming in. Singapore's retired president tried to get William Safire into town for a "debate" about whether he was still running the place via his son. Safire didn't take the bait. He joked about it in his column. DCF From blizzard at odin.nyser.net Wed Aug 7 07:59:18 1996 From: blizzard at odin.nyser.net (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:59:18 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608061308.JAA24021@odin.nyser.net> In message , Simon Spero writes: :I've been using by british passport as photo-id for years, and I haven't :had any major problems- you can get your checks printed with your :passport number on them instead of a drivers licence, which will makes :things much easier. : There are a lot of retail stores that will complain if you don't use a driver's license when paying with checks. Most check collection agencys track people by that number. --Chris :Simon : :--- :Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina :you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. :And after all | Email address remains unchanged :You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Blizzard | "The truth knocks on the door and you say blizzard at nysernet.org | 'Go away. I'm looking for the truth,' and NYSERNet, Inc. | so it goes away." --Robert Pirsig ------------------------------------------------------------------- From janee at okway.okstate.edu Wed Aug 7 08:48:43 1996 From: janee at okway.okstate.edu (Steve Coltrin) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 23:48:43 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) Message-ID: <207582f0@Okway.okstate.edu> Simon Spero wrote: >one silly thought: lots of people use cypherpunks as the username and >password for all those websites that want an id. What about a cypherpunks >3-2-4 number for those cases where an SSN isn't appropriate. Anyone know >what J. Edgar Hoover's SSN was? According to one of "George Hayduke"'s books, Richard Nixon's was 567-68-0515. -spc From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 7 08:49:52 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 23:49:52 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <3207B8DD.794B@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7No0RD46w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Phil Hallam-Baker writes: > Alan Horowitz wrote: > > > I have added you to my computerized list of individuals who advocate > > the violent overthrow of the US Constitution. > > > > I am going to go to the law library and see what my options are, with > > respect to filing a petition to have you deported out of the United > > States. > > > > This is not a rhetorical statement. > > First off Alan posted private mail to the list. In this case mail > that was more than simply personal. > > Secondly unless Alan withdraws his allegations I will bring proceedings > against him for libel. While I accept his right to free speech I do > not accept that he has a right to attempt to restrict mine with his > threats of deportation. Alan, look at (3)(A)(iii) of the relevant statute. (3)(B) might also apply. Section 212 (a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.Code 1001, et seq., as amended by Public Law 101-549 of November 29, 1990), reads as follows: Classes of Excludable Aliens - Except as otherwise provided in this Act, the following describes classes of excludable aliens who are ineligible to receive visas and who shall be excluded from admission into the United States. (1) HEALTH - RELATED GROUNDS.-- (A) IN GENERAL. -- Any Alien-- (i) who is determined (in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services) to have a communicable disease of public health significance, (ii) who is determined (in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services in consultation with to Attorney General)-- (I) to have a physical or mental disorder and behavior associated with the disorder that may pose, or has posed, a threat to the property, safety, or welfare of the alien or others, or (II) to have a physical or mental disorder and a history of behavior associated with the disorder which behavior has posed a threat to the property, safety, or welfare of the alien or others and which behavior is likely to recur or to lead to other harmful behavior or (iii) who is determined (in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services) to be a drug abuser or addict, is excludable. (B) WAIVER AUTHORIZED.-- For provisions authorizing waiver of certain clauses of subparagraph (A), see subsection (g). (2) CRIMINAL AND RELATED GROUNDS.-- (A) CONVICTION OF CERTAIN CRIMES.-- (i) IN GENERAL.-- Except as provided in a clause (ii), any alien convicted of, or who admits having committed, or who admits acts which constitute the essential elements of-- (I) a crime involving moral turpitude (other than a purely political offense), or (II) a violation of (or a conspiracy to violate) any law or regulation of a State, the United States, or a foreign country relating to a controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)), is excludable. (ii) EXCEPTION.-- clause (i)(I) shall not apply to an alien who committed only one crime if-- (I) the crime was committed when the alien was under 18 years of age and the crime was committed (and the alien released from any confinement to a prison or correctional institution imposed for the crime) more than 5 years before the date of application for visas or other documentation and the date of application for admission to the United States, or (II) the maximum penalty possible for the crime of which the alien was convicted (or which the alien admits having committed or of which the acts that the alien admits having committed constituted the essential elements) did not exceed imprisonment for one year and, the alien was not sentenced to a term of imprisonment in excess of 6 months (regardless of the extent to which the sentence was ultimately executed). (B) MULTIPLE CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS.-- Any alien convicted of 2 or more offenses (other than purely political offenses), regardless of whether the conviction was in a single trial or whether the offenses arose from a single scheme of misconduct and regardless of whether the offenses involved moral turpitude, for which the aggregate sentences to confinement actually imposed were 5 years or more is excludable. (D) PROSTITUTION AND COMMERCIALIZED VICE.-- Any alien who-- (i) is coming to the United States solely, principally, or incidentally to engage in prostitution, or has engaged in prostitution within 10 years of the date of application for a visa, entry, or adjustment of status, (ii) directly or indirectly procures or attempts to procure, or (within 10 years of the date of application for a visa, entry, or adjustment of status) procured or attempted to procure or to import, prostitutes or persons for the purpose of prostitution, or receives or (within such 10-year period) received, in whole or in part, the proceeds of prostitution, or (iii) is coming to the United States to engage in any other unlawful commercialized vice whether or not related to prostitution, is excludable. (E) CERTAIN ALIENS INVOLVED IN SERIOUS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY WHO HAVE ASSERTED IMMUNITY FROM PROSECUTION.--Any alien-- (i) who has committed in the United States at any time a serious criminal offense (as defined in section 101(h)), (ii) for whom immunity from criminal jurisdiction was exercised with respect to that offense, (iii) who as a consequence of the offense and exercise of immunity has departed from the United States, and (iv) who has not subsequently submitted fully to the jurisdiction of the court in the United States having jurisdiction with respect to that offense, is excludable. (F) WAIVER AUTHORIZED.-- For provisions authorizing waiver of certain subparagraphs of this paragraph, see subsection (h). (3) SECURITY AND RELATED GROUNDS.-- (A) IN GENERAL.-- Any alien who a consular officer or the Attorney General knows, or has reasonable ground to believe, seeks to enter the United States to engage solely, principally, or incidentally in-- (i) any activity to violate any law of the United States relating to espionage or sabotage or to violate or evade any law prohibiting the export from the United States of goods, technology, or sensitive information, (ii) any other unlawful activity, or (iii) any activity a purpose of which is the opposition to, or the control or overthrow of, the Government of the United States by force, violence, or other unlawful means, is excludable. (B) TERRORIST ACTIVITIES. -- (i) IN GENERAL.-- Any alien who-- (I) has engaged in terrorist activity, or (II) a consular officer of the Attorney General knows, or has reasonable ground to believe, is likely to engage after entry in any terrorist activity (as defined in clause (iii)), is excludable. An alien who is an officer, official, representative, or spokesman of the Palestine Liberation Organization is considered, for purpose of this Act, to be engaged in a terrorist activity. (ii) TERRORIST ACTIVITY DEFINED.-- As used in this Act, the term 'terrorist activity' means any activity which is unlawful under the laws of the place where it is committed (or which, if committed in the United States, would be unlawful under the laws of the United States or any State) and which involves any to the following: (I) The hijacking or sabotaging of any conveyance (including aircraft, vessel, or vehicle). (II) The seizing or detaining, and threatening to kill, injure, or continue to detain, another individual in order to compel a third person (including a governmental organization) to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the individual seized or detained. (III) A violent attack upon an internationally protected person (as defined in section 1116 (b)(4) of title 18, United States Code) or upon the liberty of such a person. (IV) An assassination. (V) The use of any-- (a) biological agent, chemical agent, or nuclear weapon or device, or (b) explosive or firearm (other than for mere personal monetary gain), with the intent to endanger, directly or indirectly, the safety of one or more individuals or to cause substantial damage to property. (VI) A threat, attempt, or conspiracy to do any of the foregoing. (iii) ENGAGE IN TERRORIST ACTIVITY DEFINED.-- As used in this Act, the term `engage in terrorist activity' means to commit, in an individual capacity or as a member of an organization, an act which the actor knows or reasonably should know, afford material support to an individual organization or government in conducting a terrorist activity at any time, including any of the following acts; (I) The preparation or planning of a terrorist activity. (II) The gathering of information on potential targets for terrorist activity. (III) The providing of any type of material support, including a safe house, transportation, communications, funds, false identification, weapons, explosives, of training, to any individual the actor knows or has reason to believe has committed or plans to commit a terrorist activity. (IV) The soliciting of funds or other things of value for terrorist activity or for any terrorist organization. (V) The solicitation of any individual for membership in a terrorist organization, terrorist government, or to engage in a terrorist activity. A bunch of other stuff not relevant to Phil deleted. Note: I generally like what Phil says, but I don't like people who threaten libel lawsuits over something said on the Internet. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Aug 7 09:05:40 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:05:40 +0800 Subject: Phone tapping in India Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960807114112.002e8fa4@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> "The Pioneer" headlined on August 6, 96: "CBI can tap at whim -- Agency has 6 bugging machines" (The CBI is effectively the Indian equivalent of the FBI) Apparently, these machines costing Rs. 7.5 million = $200,000 each, can each tap 7 phones in a 25-km radius, and were bought from a Hyderabad-based company, Fidelity Systems. Apparently, all that is needed to tap a phone is for the sleuths to dial the number through the machine, which then automatically starts and stops recording all conversations carried out with that number, as well the numbers dialled by the target. As it is, the law on wiretapping is draconian in India: on the occurrence of an emergency, or for "public safety", a designated government officer can direct that "any message or class of messages to or from any person or class of persons, or relating to any particular subject, brought for transmission by or transmitted or received by any telegraph, shall not be transmitted, or shall be intercepted or detained or shall be disclosed to the government." (This is from the Indian Telegraph Act of 1885(!), and applies to e-mail and BBSes as well). But with these new machines, even this designated officer can be bypassed. Under a box titled "Beware of blank calls", the newspaper mentions that when the sleuths ring your number to start tapping, you get a "blank" call (which one is quite used to here -- if that were enough evidence, the whole of India is being tapped!) What technology is this? If it indeed works this way, what is to prevent any large company or rich person from procuring the same hardware? Apparently, the purchase was authorised by former prime minister Rao, who is now complaining that his own phone is being tapped (serves him right). Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From roger at coelacanth.com Wed Aug 7 10:51:19 1996 From: roger at coelacanth.com (Roger Williams) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 01:51:19 +0800 Subject: Censorship through proxy In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960807101315.0091e068@panix.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Duncan" == Duncan Frissell writes: > "Your government -- just a rouge sysadmin." ^^^^^ No, no -- that would be *China*, not Singapore ;-) -- Roger Williams finger me for my PGP public key Coelacanth Engineering consulting & turnkey product development Middleborough, MA wireless * DSP-based instrumentation * ATE tel +1 508 947-8049 * fax +1 508 947-9118 * http://www.coelacanth.com/ From wb8foz at nrk.com Wed Aug 7 10:59:37 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 01:59:37 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <199608070259.TAA17424@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608071335.JAA02403@nrk.com> > If you're _employing_ Anglos, you're currently required to disrespect their > honesty and demand proof that their papers are in order to fill out the I-9 > form. At one time, I worked in a position requiring all kinds of clearances - TS, SCI, {xxx} etc. We hired a bunch of new engineers. They'd all been through the wringer before we brought them on board. This takes 6 months or so; Full Field Investigation, etc....... They showed up all ready to work for Uncle Sam. The very first form they encountered was the I9 "Prove you are a citizen..." -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Wed Aug 7 11:10:42 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 02:10:42 +0800 Subject: ****Developer Recants Hostile Java Applet Story 08/06/96 Message-ID: <9608071339.AA16478@rpcp.mit.edu> SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA, U.S.A., 1996 AUG 6 (NB) -- By Patrick McKenna. Finjan Software of Israel, which earlier said its Java security software detected what the company called a publicly available hostile Java applet at a game site on the World Wide Web, has issued a statement changing its earlier claims. In the first story on the Java applet labeled "hostile" by Finjan, Newsbytes reported early Tuesday that the Java applet in question is part of a game available on the Web and connected to America Online. Shmulik Suhami, spokesperson for Finjan, told Newsbytes at the time, "We were contacted by one of our users who detected a hostile Java applet and we have confirmed the user's experience." Newsbytes reported Sun Microsystems' JavaSoft division reply as saying, "This issue is totally and completely bogus. Security features built into Java do not allow an applet to read or write to another computer without issuing a warning message and this applet in question is not a hostile Java applet. An individual at AT&T, acting independently of the company, developed the applet. We suspect a file for the applet was placed on a second system and that is probably why Finjan's software incorrectly read it as a hostile application. Actually, this is a flaw in Finjan's software. There is no bug or hostile application at all." In its early story, Newsbytes also quoted a JavaSoft spokesperson as saying, "What is going on is that the person's applet called an audio file from a second machine and Java's security features are so strong and restrictive that an exception is raised whenever a second machine is called. Finjan's software appears to have read the call to the second machine as a hostile bug." In recanting its initial claims, Finjan released the following statement: "We want to issue a clarification on the media alert we sent out yesterday describing a potentially suspicious Java applet. We were perhaps mistaken to describe the applet discovered as a 'hostile applet,' since we did not know if it did anything damaging to a person's system. The activity of applet described was harmless. We misunderstood the extent of the security exception based on information we received. Though in principal the way the app was created could constitute a risk, in practice this was a relatively harmless breech of security, which the Java Security Manager dealt with appropriately." (19960805/Press Contact: Mary Jo Wagner, Successful Marketing Strategists, tel 510-644-3837; E-mail Address: maryjo at successful.com; or Paul Karr, KVO, 415-961-1550) From clopez at nayar.uan.mx Wed Aug 7 11:52:08 1996 From: clopez at nayar.uan.mx (Carlos L. Mariscal) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 02:52:08 +0800 Subject: THE WORLD IS SCREWD UP In-Reply-To: <3207C10E.60AF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Michael Cortes wrote: > THIS WORLD IS SREWED UP i hate my life so mue hobbeys makeing time pipe > bommbs so what is this all about huh what the fuck "anti terrisiom bill" > damn sad ok so what does this mean FREE COUNTRY hahahaha i laugh when i > hear that term there is no free country and we never have a wright to > privesy u know man this sux so much....... oh and to the government u can > kiss my ass > Ok, I get your point. BTW, ever heard about punctuation? clopez From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Aug 7 12:00:47 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:00:47 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199608071019.FAA15721@sr.radiks.net> Message-ID: <199608071423.JAA24819@manifold.algebra.com> Scott Schryvers wrote: > > NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the > planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years > ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed > on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. did these life forms use cryptography? - Igor. From jya at pipeline.com Wed Aug 7 12:02:55 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:02:55 +0800 Subject: Mena Message-ID: <199608071506.PAA13182@pipe1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> The Washington Post, August 7, 1996, p. A6. CIA Probed in Alleged Arms Shipments Reports Claim Agents Involved in Arkansas-Nicaragua Drug Swaps By Susan Schmidt The CIA's inspector general is investigating claims that U.S. intelligence agencies were involved in illegal arms shipments and drug smuggling at an isolated airstrip in Mena, Ark., during the years Bill Clinton was governor. A spokesman for the CIA said Inspector General Frederick P. Hitz is preparing a report on allegations that the CIA was involved in arms shipments from Mena to the Nicaraguan rebels during the 1980s, and that pilots hired by the agency brought back large shipments of cocaine. CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield said the inspector general will report on possible contacts between the agency and Arkansas state officials during the 1980s. His report also will deal with allegations that the CIA attempted to influence or curtail law enforcement investigations of Mena. Hitz was asked to investigate the Mena airport by CIA Director John M. Deutch, who was acting on a request from House Banking Committee Chairman Jim Leach (R-Iowa). Leach's panel is looking into the possible laundering of drug money generated at Mena. Leach's Banking Committee staff has been looking a variety of claims about Mena emanating from a collection of Arkansas law enforcement officials and various figures operating in the shadowy netherworld on contract with intelligence agencies. One congressional investigator likened sorting through the allegations to being trapped in "a hall of mirrors." Congressional sources said Leach made the request to the CIA about six months ago and expects a report from Hitz in late summer or early fall. The latest Mena claims are contained in "Boy Clinton," a book by American Spectator Editor R. Emmett Tyrrell published this week. In it, Tyrrell asserts that Clinton knew about CIA operations and cocaine smuggling at Mena. He cites as sources Arkansas state troopers, including one on the governor's security detail who says he was also a contract employee for the CIA during the mid-1980s and informed Clinton of what was going on at Mena. Clinton has said he had nothing to do with any activities at Mena. "Mena is the darkest backwater of the right wing conspiracy industry," said White House spokesman Mark Fabiani. "The allegations are as bizarre as they are false." [End] From wb8foz at nrk.com Wed Aug 7 12:07:54 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:07:54 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199608071019.FAA15721@sr.radiks.net> Message-ID: <199608071442.KAA02713@nrk.com> schryver at radiks.net: > NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the > planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years > ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed > on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. Sternlight? -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From wb8foz at nrk.com Wed Aug 7 12:26:03 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:26:03 +0800 Subject: Freeh slimes again: Digital Telephony costs $2 billion now In-Reply-To: <199608070259.TAA17442@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608071504.LAA02808@nrk.com> > I haven't been able to find the reference, but a month or two ago > there was an article on the net or in a newspaper about the targets > of wiretapping - how many wiretaps were for drugs, gambling, tax evasion, > and of course terrorism. The number of wiretaps for bombs and guns > was something low like 80 in the last 5-10 years - about 1/10%. > (Did anybody else see this article??) The WashPost article that JYA covered, perhaps? -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From haystack at cow.net Wed Aug 7 12:26:31 1996 From: haystack at cow.net (Bovine Remailer) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:26:31 +0800 Subject: Message Message-ID: <9608071435.AA11662@cow.net> http://upside.master.com:8080/print/july96/ww9607.html w a s h i n g t o n w a t c h The Coming Internet Wars Michael C. Maibach There's a very real danger that for the first time both the PC and the Internet will be regulated and taxed. The PC industry policy landscape has never been so dynamic, as telecom deregulation and technology convergence take hold. Being on the cutting edge of technology places us at the leading edge of public policy. Here's what's coming. In Washington A group of U.S. long-distance resellers has petitioned the Federal Communications Commission to outlaw (yes, outlaw) Internet telephony software. Their view is that the unregulated Net should not compete with regulated carriers. The PC industry's position is that the FCC doesn't have the authority to outlaw this or any software. A much more significant threat is a possible RBOC petition asking the FCC to levy access charges on all "enhanced services," such as the Internet. They seem to object to ISPs moving data, e-mail, graphics and calls outside of the current "universal service" monopoly established by the 1934 Communications Act. The PC industry's number one telecom goal is competition in the local loop. Such competition should drive more bandwidth at a lower cost. Only the Net offers a modicum of competition to local service. If the FCC pulls the Net into the archaic telecom regulatory system, access charges could chill use of the most important telecom medium in the world. The FCC must also set advanced digital TV broadcast standards. As TVs move into the digital PC world, let's make sure that broadcast signals over public airwaves are both PC- and TV-compatible. And speaking of consumer electronics, digital videodiscs (DVDs), with 10 times the capacity of a CD-ROM and studio-quality output, are on the way. The motion picture and consumer electronics industries drafted legislation to protect content while enabling this new market. Unfortunately, their bill would inadvertently outlaw PCs as illegal copy devices! PC hardware and software makers have a vested interest in the success of DVD technology because it allows the copying of data and images. We, perhaps more than any other industry, want DVD technology to advance. But legal protections and private standards must make this a technology as open to PC users as it is to movie buffs. Finally, Washington is considering measures to strengthen copyright protection of material moved on the Internet, require closed captioning on PCs that pick up TV broadcast signals and forbid software exports that have strong encryption protections in the name of national security. An industry that has grown up with private standard-setting in an open, unregulated environment now faces the kind of intense regulatory pressures one is accustomed to seeing in the railroad or drug industries. This is spurred on by the convergence of FCC-regulated industries with PC markets, products and technologies. In State Capitals Action in many U.S. state capitals reflects themes developing in Washington. Long-distance resellers have asked state public utility commissions (PUCs) to outlaw Internet telephony software, for example. Florida and California are considering taxing "digital commerce" they fear may bypass state sales tax regimes. And a few RBOCs have actually petitioned state PUCs to allow increases in ISDN installation and usage fees. Members of the PC industry, working with consumer groups and Internet warriors, have successfully challenged such rate hikes. Lower ISDN prices and easier hookup should drive huge volume increases in this market, benefiting local phone companies and PC users. Around the World So far, activity abroad is less robust than in the U.S., but it's just a matter of time. The European Union recently reclassified PCs with CD-ROM drives as "consumer electronics devices," tripling their import tariffs. Moreover, Europe is considering a "TV without borders" policy that would impose domestic content requirements on TV programming. Since movies are a type of software, will proposals to limit the sale of "foreign" PC software follow? And governments in Europe, Canada and Australia are considering a "bit tax" on digital commerce. The old world of analog TV and telecom regulation must not spill over into the new world of competitive, open and digital markets. Governments must adopt the PC model of innovation and govern accordingly. In the U.S., the FCC must evolve into a Federal Competition Commission, and Congress should carefully guard digital commerce technologies that are changing the way we work, learn, consume and communicate. Michael C. Maibach is vice president for government affairs at Intel Corp. in Washington, D.C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Home | Upside Magazine | Entrepreneur Forum | Upside Locator | About Upside Comments and suggestions for this site are welcome via e-mail to: feedback at upside.com Copyright �1996 Upside Publishing Company. All rights reserved. Powered by Thunderstone. From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Wed Aug 7 12:53:00 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:53:00 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <9607078394.AA839443151@smtplink.alis.ca> I've seen the same problem in a department store in Ottawa. They would not accept a Canadian Passport as identification for payment by cheque but would accept various credit cards and similar devices. My conclusion was that they wanted something that would show my friend's credit worthiness, not prove his identity. James Declan McCullagh >I had the same problems when I was working at Xerox in Webster, NY. >Supermarkets just plain didn't want to accept my passport as valid ID. >> At 15:48 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote: >> >> A US passport is not considered valid ID by the State of Oregon. If >> somebody here doesn't belive this, send someone who looks like he >> might be under 21 into any liquor store in Oregon with just an US >> passport. From gary at systemics.com Wed Aug 7 13:31:39 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 04:31:39 +0800 Subject: Censorship through proxy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3208B9AB.794BDF32@systemics.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > Sing Sing (the country is now a prison, so...) is one of the states we > should think about targetting for "special attention." Not in the sense of > violence, but in the sense of offering help to freedom fighters, those who > want to use stego, web proxies, etc. A few questions spring to mind: Is encryption legal in singapore? Is the list of blacklisted sites available? If encrypted proxy software were available, how many sites would be prepared to run these proxies? Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From David.K.Merriman at toad.com Wed Aug 7 13:33:50 1996 From: David.K.Merriman at toad.com (David.K.Merriman at toad.com) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 04:33:50 +0800 Subject: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer? Message-ID: <199608071547.IAA07691@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: alano at teleport.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 07 10:46:25 1996 > At 09:14 AM 8/6/96 -0700, David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster at cygnus.com, > wrote: > > >I have IE3 configured to ask me for permission to accept a cookie. Yes, > >some sites send (n!)+1 cookies during a session. If they send too many, > I > >personally move on to another site, after sending them email (!). > > If the site sends you *LOTS* of cookies with no expire date, then they > have > probibly compiled their Apache server with the mod_cookie module. The > cookies are only used by the log files and i am willing to bet that > most > people who have that option compiled in do not even read the logs. Whatever the conditions/causes for the cookiefest, I make it known to them that the volume of cookies gives me electronic diabetes, and move on. I suspect that there will eventually be enough people that dislike being force-fed cookies and complaining about it that such sites will either fold, or get a klew. Dave - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome and encouraged. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAi3uZ2MAAAEEALWQtxX77SZSaFls6cVbPp+fZS4MNyKK3ZFYQo0qWyj+0tMq YgRTPRJRaCQixo63RttknogfPp514qdVMZw5iPeOXmD+RxrmTTwlbGqA7QUiG1x5 LG2Zims5zk4U6/rt8hwLh0/8E4lIb9r5d31qc8L1A9Twk/cmN8VrTvyYOzAZAAUR tBg8bWVycmltYW5AYW1hb25saW5lLmNvbT60KURhdmlkIEsuIE1lcnJpbWFuIDxt ZXJyaW1hbkBtZXRyb25ldC5jb20+iQCVAwUQLqwCX5IDOImWiDcFAQHFfwP/Tm5v 3zoijU9oYmAO1WVsw4+HamN0HdBKkDxPtuGeCmxNuiDPsucVjqctMfbh1WzCfNEb NfZdg3YVdDNgsQqlu4k8XznrbQSoQm3t5ySQNKvQx0KisJnee0caVpEgQ4bwSfuv 81TG08lJt4A0fIpXSllMnRkXenvXIBmgJTUklaiJAJUDBRAupxG0qWOYkEirxV0B AUUJBACJ0FYXTlR9ncd0tNnYGOGSLO1scgt8IxUDMyQ2htEsfSNxD6jg303LuAA/ Zset5p0JhACLLHbgtZlpYH4uQbjy9Ve9JrVm/6SysSnX1TfSNF5NoMcxGDYgNDRL tP/5jKRZ/hzH8vjHSWXnnN9Pb1MdYdWql4DjDQ+dIEm5sywbqIkAlQIFEC3uaE3F a078mDswGQEBbI8D/0FiwDcbfeNyDVJ+7EIWHjIxVkIGu+ArYUEllR3GSBHVZ9Vh 7n8bNXeNHMnG5cZ23TLMVvweyhxFS+cDi+I7omeDNr6x65z500LxfUvLK5bSuSiB VkTp2z+/iojY/662JwKHzEEunuJ4CO8Yhxy11CdeszEX7DpXzRxLL92rEmO2 =QZRc - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMggDg8VrTvyYOzAZAQE6cQP+JE18wLLTHDsmId+zFHh3Q5x7wA2oyS3/ 7FWxE5zWGipUxNT/tlRF/jdinMoLkg27Q7iQ1uoI4TDa5VE9pV6uGilCHN2naM0y A9Tvebxr/pHUj+hr0jYUCWzY6VQ2+q5icG11DHm3/iXhAF1SJHJJj2xi9zx4PRCv zINv8AXkFmg= =ps5w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From David.K.Merriman at toad.com Wed Aug 7 13:35:43 1996 From: David.K.Merriman at toad.com (David.K.Merriman at toad.com) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 04:35:43 +0800 Subject: The Solution: 20 Beautiful women Message-ID: <199608071547.IAA07707@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: accessnt at ozemail.com.au, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 07 10:46:46 1996 > I pat myself on the head. I am extremely brilliant. > Modest, too :-) > She who is most luscious > ___ > Mark Neely - accessnt at ozemail.com.au > Lawyer, Internet Consultant, Professional Cynic > Author: Australian Beginner's Guide to the Internet (2nd Ed.) > Australian Business Guide to the Internet > Internet Guide for Teachers, Students & Parents > WWW: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~accessnt > > Dave Merriman "I am not conceited. Conceit is a downfall, and I have none." - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome and encouraged. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAi3uZ2MAAAEEALWQtxX77SZSaFls6cVbPp+fZS4MNyKK3ZFYQo0qWyj+0tMq YgRTPRJRaCQixo63RttknogfPp514qdVMZw5iPeOXmD+RxrmTTwlbGqA7QUiG1x5 LG2Zims5zk4U6/rt8hwLh0/8E4lIb9r5d31qc8L1A9Twk/cmN8VrTvyYOzAZAAUR tBg8bWVycmltYW5AYW1hb25saW5lLmNvbT60KURhdmlkIEsuIE1lcnJpbWFuIDxt ZXJyaW1hbkBtZXRyb25ldC5jb20+iQCVAwUQLqwCX5IDOImWiDcFAQHFfwP/Tm5v 3zoijU9oYmAO1WVsw4+HamN0HdBKkDxPtuGeCmxNuiDPsucVjqctMfbh1WzCfNEb NfZdg3YVdDNgsQqlu4k8XznrbQSoQm3t5ySQNKvQx0KisJnee0caVpEgQ4bwSfuv 81TG08lJt4A0fIpXSllMnRkXenvXIBmgJTUklaiJAJUDBRAupxG0qWOYkEirxV0B AUUJBACJ0FYXTlR9ncd0tNnYGOGSLO1scgt8IxUDMyQ2htEsfSNxD6jg303LuAA/ Zset5p0JhACLLHbgtZlpYH4uQbjy9Ve9JrVm/6SysSnX1TfSNF5NoMcxGDYgNDRL tP/5jKRZ/hzH8vjHSWXnnN9Pb1MdYdWql4DjDQ+dIEm5sywbqIkAlQIFEC3uaE3F a078mDswGQEBbI8D/0FiwDcbfeNyDVJ+7EIWHjIxVkIGu+ArYUEllR3GSBHVZ9Vh 7n8bNXeNHMnG5cZ23TLMVvweyhxFS+cDi+I7omeDNr6x65z500LxfUvLK5bSuSiB VkTp2z+/iojY/662JwKHzEEunuJ4CO8Yhxy11CdeszEX7DpXzRxLL92rEmO2 =QZRc - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMggDmMVrTvyYOzAZAQFIRgP/daZBRoJrHSGHFgUR3s5ofjrhF49yp3Wh OxyhrjZ1oPFCz1n7Nzii18JXFlaCCRzppgBYcr6/t777bhHVs3PeLpQNHW5q4xLD U+mOo9J0UF1TMVcAiYD9b4wVlLlcU+qa0PVYcuRLw3QbWd3g7eqABKpwKWyWibI4 CVUttLIzwX4= =yCpo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From perry at piermont.com Wed Aug 7 13:47:12 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 04:47:12 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <19960805204130906.AAB148@maverick> Message-ID: <199608071538.LAA08433@jekyll.piermont.com> Phill writes > Given the number of gun related homicides in the > US it is not unreasonable to require each individual cartridge > to be stamped with a serial number and for gun dealers to be > required to record each individual purchase. Phill, as usual, displaying your ignorance? Many of my friends reload spent brass. I realize that you might not get this idea, but guns are a technology that hasn't advanced significantly since 1900 or so, other than maybe lightening things with plastic stocks. (The few innovations that have been tried, like trounds and caseless ammo, haven't ever taken off). The result of this is that a heavy fraction of the people who own guns have the ability to LOAD THEIR OWN AMMUNITON. Indeed, anyone who wants to can do it! Even without a PhD! In fact, lots of cheapskates who like to shoot a lot regularly go out to ranges and sweep up other people's spent brass. If you open up a good magazine for those of us who aren't scared of guns, you will see ads for dozens of inexpensive devices to help you trim and fix cases in a semi-automated way, and to load ammo mostly by turning a crank. BTW, such devices are trivial to make yourself, and plans are readily available. Its all low technology. Were you not totally ignorant of how guns are used, this wouldn't be news to you. Now, on top of that, our ignorant socialist friend seems to forget that brass is not immutable -- that is, that it would take about thirty seconds and an awl would get rid of any serial number you cared to stamp. On an empty case, its even easier. The real key here is of course that idiots going crazy and killing 20 people in a schoolyard kill fewer people than slippery wet floors, and the whole thing is so insignificant that it can be ignored. The drug related killings would go away were drugs legalized, as would a heavy fraction of the petty crime, and most of the rest of the abuses of guns are so tiny in comparison to the legitimate uses as to be insignificant. (Oh, and by the way, Dr. Hallam-Baker -- I consider suicide, which is counted in the HCI "statistics" on gun deaths, to be a perfectly legitimate use of a weapon. Its every person's right to off themselves any time they like by my way of thinking, and you have no right to force people to live against their will any more than you have the right to force them into slavery.) Perry From charlee at netnet.net Wed Aug 7 13:47:19 1996 From: charlee at netnet.net (kickboxer) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 04:47:19 +0800 Subject: cookie monster Message-ID: <199608071600.LAA03014@netnet1.netnet.net> Does anybody have any information on the "Cookie Monster" technology that Netscape and Microsoft are soon going to incorperate in their internet browsers? All I know is that they take cookies and "eat" (destroy) them. From gary at systemics.com Wed Aug 7 14:18:51 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 05:18:51 +0800 Subject: Phone tapping in India In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960807114112.002e8fa4@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <3208C12F.15FB7483@systemics.com> Arun Mehta wrote: > > Under a box titled "Beware of blank calls", the newspaper mentions that > when the sleuths ring your number to start tapping, you get a "blank" call > (which one is quite used to here -- if that were enough evidence, the whole > of India is being tapped!) > > What technology is this? If it indeed works this way, what is to prevent any > large company or rich person from procuring the same hardware? Do telephones have "caller control" in India? (ie. if you call someone, can the callee not hang you up?). If they do, then the technology is quite straightforward, being a device that emulates the exchange and proxies on calls. Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From gary at systemics.com Wed Aug 7 16:02:18 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:02:18 +0800 Subject: appropriate algorithm for application In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806232209.006e2c84@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: <3208DD65.237C228A@systemics.com> Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: > > I need an algorithm/protocol that is capable of encrypting numerous > files with separate keys, but there also needs to be a master key > that will be able to decrypt all of them. Is there such a system > that is relatively secure? I'd prefer the system to be as secure > as possible, but in this application, security is secondary to > functionality. Thanks... //cerridwyn// Are you after a working program, or just a design? You could always use an escrowed public key generator (discussed on sci.crypt some time ago), where the keys all have a factor of 'N' embedded in 'N', but encrypted with the master key. (I'd be prepared to write the code that generates the keys, if someone does the "master decrypt" side of things). Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From mpd at netcom.com Wed Aug 7 16:15:08 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:15:08 +0800 Subject: Wee Beasties on Mars In-Reply-To: <199608071442.KAA02713@nrk.com> Message-ID: <199608071634.JAA06580@netcom13.netcom.com> > schryver at radiks.net: > > NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the > > planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years > > ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed > > on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. NASA is holding a news conference today to discuss the find. I must admit I am curious as to how they determined the meteor's origin. Most material in the solar system is similar in composition. Definitely a news story worth following, however. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Wed Aug 7 16:17:05 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:17:05 +0800 Subject: Oregen Vehicle Database on the Net Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807175027.002beffc@vertexgroup.com> Aaron Nabil has purchased the entire Oregen Vehicle Registration database ($220) and put it on the Web. Did some oregonian piss you off on the highway? snail flame their arse! http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates From perry at piermont.com Wed Aug 7 16:44:08 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:44:08 +0800 Subject: PGP public key servers are NOT useful! In-Reply-To: <199608060552.WAA04209@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <199608071637.MAA08532@jekyll.piermont.com> John Anonymous MacDonald writes: > The problem with the PGP public key servers is that > one has absolutely no control over what gets uploaded there in one's > own name. Thats why people are supposed to use the web of trust to check the keys. You claim to make your key available by finger. How do you know that Mallet isn't switching the bits as they go down the wire to your correspondants? The only way to verify a key is to check known good signatures on it. Because of this, no security is needed on key storage facilities per se -- you aren't supposed to trust keys without signatures. Geesh. I thought this was obvious. I guess not. Perry From vinnie at webstuff.apple.com Wed Aug 7 16:52:35 1996 From: vinnie at webstuff.apple.com (Vinnie Moscaritolo) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:52:35 +0800 Subject: Apple people on the li Message-ID: At 11:15 PM 8/6/96 GMT, John Young wrote: >I'd like to hear Tim, too, in this Big Apple. RealAudio, perhaps. >What would you offer to set off Tim's simmering crypto-anarcho-volcano, >make it heard round the planet? I can't offer much that would satify Tim's needs, he would have to look elsewhere for that (I will restrain my comment about a size 12 boot) The Mac crtpyo workshop http://webstuff.apple.com/~opentpt/crypto.html is just that, a workshop: a guerilla effort focused at Mac developers who write code to start including crypto in thier code. I am also sponsering an effort among developers to do keychain management on the Mac, In a manner similar to the popular Internet Config. Developers get together, talk, hack, and go home with plans to write stuff. What I offer developers is much more important to me right now. people complain about email apps not having built in crypto, I am trying to do something about it. So are folks like Olivier Merenne who does SafeMail http://www.highware.com/highware/safemail/safemail.htm . these are the kinds of people that I want to help. The workshop us not a forum for the very people that Tim complains about, to rant about how great the Mac is or isnt. or why crypto is good or bad, I will leave that to the wired.coms and other non-tech forums out there. I agree with Tim, If you really want to hear tim talk, you cant ead his rants on cp or I have a better idea, maybe you can send him some bucks and he'll send you a cassette tape or something (I would suggest he makes a quicktime movie and put it on your webpage or do a webcast, but that requires you buy into the Apple world doesnt it, so maybe you can do the windoze equiv) nuff said, cp Vinnie Moscaritolo Apple Developer Tech Support http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A From peter.allan at aeat.co.uk Wed Aug 7 16:57:58 1996 From: peter.allan at aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:57:58 +0800 Subject: Anonymous Remailers at work Message-ID: <9608071713.AA13368@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk> > Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 21:05:24 -0700 > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: Anonymous Remailers at work > I've recently run into a couple of business problems at work > that could be solved by (slightly modified) remailers. > 1) Manager performance review, suggestion boxes, and questions to > visiting honchos - there are several departments that are using > "email to the secretary who'll take your name off and forward it" > to handle this problem. Remailers are an obvious solution. > It would probably be worth modifying the remailer to use a permit-list > as well as a block-list for destinations and maybe sources, > Any other reasons to install anonymous remailers at work, > and things you'd do to make them more attractive or > less scary to corporate network administrative types? I have a very crude + simple remailer using shell scripts. There is re-ordering and a standard message size. There is no scope for receipts or replies. I limit messages to 1kb to make it harder to send images. (There was once a management complaint about images- nothing to do with me or the remailer which hadn't started then.) It can only send and receive mail INSIDE the company. I have not advertised it widely, for fear of a management veto. It carries a warning to be sensible, and I'd be able to read the mail log following complaints. There is a short banned list, intended only to stop looping. In another message Bill said: > immigrant Brits and ... speaking funny-soundin' English at you. Um, some of us really do speak English. To the point where we struggle to make out Larry King and guest both mumbling away at high speed. From adam at homeport.org Wed Aug 7 17:13:49 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:13:49 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608071729.MAA15197@homeport.org> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: | Duncan Frissell writes: | > At 12:06 AM 8/6/96 -0700, Marshall Clow wrote: | > | > >I have found that promising to provide the necessary docs, and then failing | > to do so, is the least confrontational and most effective way around this. | > > | > >"Delay is the deadliest form of denial" | > | > Works for me as well. Likewise, self employment. | | That's the key word here - I don't think you need I-9 if you get paid on 1099 | or equivalent. However for W-4 employment, the emplyer must send a signed I-9 This is correct; you don't need an I-9 to work when your wages are reported via a 1099. | to los federales. Otherwise the computer will flag this situation and they'll | get a letter asking why they pay wages to someone whose I-9 isn't on file. The privacy act statement on the I-9 instructions claims that the form will be kept on file by the employer, who can be asked for it by the INS. This 'we keep it on file' was confirmed by a contracting firm with whom I did some work recently. It also has some newspeak that has to be read to be believed. ADam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Aug 7 17:24:14 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:24:14 +0800 Subject: Censorship through proxy Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960807174810.002b773c@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 18:12 06/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 4:23 PM 8/6/96, Joel McNamara wrote: >>http://www.singnet.com.sg/cache/sbareg.html > >Sing Sing (the country is now a prison, so...) is one of the states we >should think about targetting for "special attention." Yes, that would be great, and a trial run for the Big Prize, China. At the site mentioned above, they have a form to fill out, which only people from Singapore are supposed to respond to, which asks a lot of questions, including how much censorship users consider appropriate! If there is some way of making them think the response is coming from within Singapore when actually it isn't, maybe we could flood them with responses saying we want no censorship? Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 7 17:24:58 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:24:58 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: At 5:15 PM 8/7/96, Vinnie Moscaritolo wrote: >Man, > you guys have way, WAY to much time on your hands. CP is starting to sound >more like a bunch of bickering old ladies than the usual bickering group of >old ladies (uh I mean crytpo anarchists) . I would have responded and put a >round through the head of this discussion a few days ago, but my digest >feed to cp died a few days ago. "Put a round through the head of this discussion"? One of the most common conceits on this list is summarized by this comment: "I've said what I want to say, so now it's time for us to move on to other things." Or the charming equivalent: "You've heard my views, now can't we move on to some _real_ cryptography?" And then there's the old chestnut of claiming others have too much time on their hands. Learn to use the "delete" key for discussions you don't like. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From mab at crypto.com Wed Aug 7 17:40:34 1996 From: mab at crypto.com (Matt Blaze) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:40:34 +0800 Subject: appropriate algorithm for application In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960806232209.006e2c84@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: <199608071703.NAA07097@crypto.com> > >I need an algorithm/protocol that is capable of encrypting numerous >files with separate keys, but there also needs to be a master key >that will be able to decrypt all of them. Is there such a system >that is relatively secure? I'd prefer the system to be as secure >as possible, but in this application, security is secondary to >functionality. Thanks... //cerridwyn// > If you need this "master key" feature embedded in the cryptosystem itself, you're probably out of luck - such a cipher would be at least as slow as a public key cryptosystem. See Blaze, Feigenbaum, Leighton, "Master-Key Cryptosystems", CRYPTO '96 rump session, available at ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/mkcs.ps . However, you could simulate the function of such a system by selecting a different key for each file and then encypting each unique file key with the master encryption key (which could be a public key or a symmetric key, depending on whether the application that encrypts the files is trusted to know the master decryption key). This has the disadvantage, however, of requiring that you store the encrypted file key with each file, which may or may not be an issue for you. -matt From sandfort at crl.com Wed Aug 7 17:41:23 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:41:23 +0800 Subject: STEGO GUNS Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, The following is from USA Today of last Friday: In a comprehensive study that may reshape the gun control debate, researchers have found that letting people carry concealed guns appears to sharply reduce killings, rapes and other violent crimes. The nationwide study [from the University of Chicago] found that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed handguns: * Homicide, down 8.5%. * Rape, down 5%. * Aggravated assault, down 7%. ... The drop isn't primarily caused by people defending themselves with guns, says John Lott, the study's author. Rather, criminals seem to alter their behavior to avoid coming into contact with a person who might have a gun. The official release of the study is scheduled for tomorrow. The study took two years and was peer reviewed. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 7 17:42:26 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:42:26 +0800 Subject: Digital Telephony costs $2 Message-ID: <199608071650.JAA05697@mail.pacifier.com> At 11:00 PM 8/6/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 11:34 PM 8/5/96 -0800, you wrote: >>What is unclear, however, is WHY they "had to" build a card that couldn't do >>full-duplex. I mean, would there have been a problem implementing that? Or >>was this just another one of those stupid design decisions which could have >>been easily fixed if it had been realized in time? >2) DSPs tend to be really tight on resources, especially RAM, > which you need to do multiple programs at once. $5-10 DSPs are > especially tight. They're starting to come with mini operating systems. I wasn't aware that sound cards made appreciable use of DSP's. Unlike modems, which inherently must massage large amounts of signal to get the data, I assumed that sound cards were more like straight A/D/A systems. >>> It also has the advantage >>>that the data is being moved through your CPU, so encryption is >>>an easy add-on, rather than having one combined modem/voiceblaster >>>card which doesn't have any hooks for crypto or other processing. >>Well, I assume that if implemented as a new type of modem card, the >>processor can be used to do the data transfer. > >If you're doing the voice crunching and A/D conversion and telephony >all on the modem card, with everything tightly integrated >to fit in your tiny cache, why put in hooks for the processor to intervene? You'd put in a hook because it would be easily done, and to fail to do so would be a serious mistake. It could also be bypassed by a hardware switch, I suppose, or a software-controlled switch, to make processor intervention unnecessary. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From vinnie at webstuff.apple.com Wed Aug 7 17:51:13 1996 From: vinnie at webstuff.apple.com (Vinnie Moscaritolo) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:51:13 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: Man, you guys have way, WAY to much time on your hands. CP is starting to sound more like a bunch of bickering old ladies than the usual bickering group of old ladies (uh I mean crytpo anarchists) . I would have responded and put a round through the head of this discussion a few days ago, but my digest feed to cp died a few days ago. Since all this crap seems to center around a conversation between me and Tim , and really should have stayed that way, (Bob, consider this a rap on the nose with a rolled up newspaper) lets just clear up a few points nad then please move on to the next subject. By developer demand I am hosting a technical workshop for Mac Crypto developers and asked Tim if he would like to speak, I though that since he has so much interesting stuff to say on the net that he might want to share it with some folks who write code for a living. Tim declined. no problem, normaly that would have ended it there, but Tim went on to state that I excluded him from the Mac Crypto list, I replied that I did no such thing and that I inherited the list (and hence any guilt I guess), He went on further deriding the Mac. I have been on the net long enough to no longer care about religious wars about "how long who's pull down menu was", BUT, I belive that Tim was a bit out of line with some of his comments about Mac Developers and Apple employees. I have a problem with that. We emailed a bit and came to the agreement that Tim would not be an appropriate speaker for a Mac technical workshop. fine, end of story,lets move on. But then Bob comes along and does his rant, the point was not so much to pick on Tim, which I belive he didnt name, but more to point out why the Mac is an important platform for crypto. Tim reacted and the pissing started. Lets just end it now. I am sure you all have better things to do. What I am concerned with is that in all the noise the following points are being lost in the fog of war. 1) there a a LOT of Mac clients on the Net. windoze might be popular in the corporate office, but Macs are still easier to configure (prove me wrong), and hence do have a place in this world. 1a) The Mac also has one of the best networking environment available for the desktop platform, OpenTransport IS very fast. And do me a favor dont complain about opendoc until youve tryed and write code with OLE. 2) Apple is nowhere near dead, anyone who says this is either smoking something harsh or lives in media painted world. The same people that say Macs are dead are the same uneducated liberal buttheads who write in the San Jose Merc Pravda about how a disarmed populus is a free(h)er one. 3) If you want strong crypto to get to the masses then you better start paying attention to genetic deversity or as I like to call it Watership Down syndrome, If you put all your crypto eggs in Bill's basket then don't complain when you find that the MicroSoft CAPI only supports escrowed keys. so lets all grow a little thicker skin and move on with it. while you all piss and moan, your rights are being stolen away, If you want to help crypto suceed then you have to care about Macs, just as much as windoze or Sun or Be or whatever platform. Back to work. Vinnie Moscaritolo ------------------ "friends come and friends go..but enemies accumulate." http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Wed Aug 7 17:56:31 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:56:31 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? Message-ID: <199608072029.NAA29976@jobe.shell.portal.com> Does anyone have a descriptoin of the F2 hash? F2 is a secret hash from SecurityDynamics, and is used in their client software. (Its not the hash in the cards, but if anyone has a copy of that, it might be fun.) I'd be very interested in seeing source code in the public domain to try out a few hacks... Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? From mccoy at communities.com Wed Aug 7 18:03:43 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:03:43 +0800 Subject: Wee Beasties on Mars [NOISE] Message-ID: > > schryver at radiks.net: > > > > NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the > > > planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years > > > ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed > > > on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. > > NASA is holding a news conference today to discuss the find. I must > admit I am curious as to how they determined the meteor's origin. > Most material in the solar system is similar in composition. Using the same methods that geologists use to determine whether or not certain meteorites are from the moon, by chemical composition. Material from within the solar system actually has varied composition mainly determined by the distance of the body from the Sun (there are various theories as to why this is, an intro cosmology book will describe them all in detail), the actual percentages of various elements and compounds can be used to make a reasonable guess as to whether or not a particular meteorite was knocked off of a planet or moon to which we have sent a probe. For example, it is possible to buy fragments of "moon rocks" which are not actually samples returned from Apollo missions (which are all owned by the U.S. government) but are from meteorites which match the exact chemical and physical composition of the returned lunar samples. Such determinations are a lot easier for planets/moons which do not have active vulcanism or other events which significantly mix up the composition of the planet. At the news conference given this afternoon the fact that the meteorite was Martian in origin was probably the least controversial. It seems that exobiology may no longer be a field without a subject :) If the results are confirmed what I think will end up being the most interesting fallout of this will be in the creationism/evolution debate. It seems that life may have been independantly generated at multiple locations, barring a "space seed" debate flaring up again, and the "impossible odds" argument has become pretty weak... jim From jims at MPGN.COM Wed Aug 7 18:28:24 1996 From: jims at MPGN.COM (James C. Sewell) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:28:24 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail policy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807211735.006c0ac4@tansoft.com> At 01:05 PM 8/5/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 5:34 PM 8/5/96, James C. Sewell wrote: > >This comparison breaks down completely. The police are not involved, so the >language of "probable cause" is inappropriate. Then use the language "good reason as defined by the company's policy". >Imagine Alice operates a courier service and owns and operates several >delievery vehicles . Here your example breaks down. Email is not like the courier company's vehicle at all. Bob didn't create the truck, he didn't think of it at any time as his, and he is not intending to use it to deal with someone else on a personal level. A better example would be that a letter sent through that courier company that is from Bob. If he pays for it to be delivered then he should have the right to privacy. If, however, the service is offered free to all employees, or if the paper/envelope/time was from the company then we would have the same problem... is it business-related, thus open to the whims of the employer, or is it private and off-limits? The whole question comes down to this: Is a collection of words written from an employee to another individual property of the company when it was written, edited, and transmitted by company equipment. The problem? There's no agreement on the answer to this. >(If anyone suggests that landlords cannot barge into tenant's apartments, >this is a different situation. For one thing, there are usually terms and >conditions spelled out in a contract about when and under what >circumstances a landlord may enter the premises.) There are often terms and conditions spelled out in employment contracts as well. I have had such contracts in every job I have held. They all went to the point of saying, in essence, anything I create on company time/equipment belongs to the company. >> Just remember, as was said, once you make a policy it becomes precedence >>and will stick with you forever... longer if it's a bad one. >> > >Alice the Courier Service is of course perfectly free to announce new >policies, so your point is incorrect. Granting that I meant precedent rather than prescedence I submit the following: precedent - n 1a. An act or instance used as an example in dealing with subsequent similar cases. 2. Custom or convention. They may change their policy at will, but the fact is that the decisions made today will "taint" or "shape" (depending on your point of view) the policies made tomorrow. Jim Sewell - jims at tansoft.com Tantalus Incorporated - Key West, FL From proff at suburbia.net Wed Aug 7 18:28:28 1996 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:28:28 +0800 Subject: STEGO GUNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608072128.HAA28140@suburbia.net> > C'punks, > > The following is from USA Today of last Friday: > > In a comprehensive study that may reshape the > gun control debate, researchers have found that > letting people carry concealed guns appears to > sharply reduce killings, rapes and other violent > crimes. > > The nationwide study [from the University of > Chicago] found that violent crime fell after > states made it legal to carry concealed handguns: > * Homicide, down 8.5%. > * Rape, down 5%. > * Aggravated assault, down 7%. > ... > The drop isn't primarily caused by people > defending themselves with guns, says John Lott, > the study's author. Rather, criminals seem to > alter their behavior to avoid coming into contact > with a person who might have a gun. > > The official release of the study is scheduled for tomorrow. > The study took two years and was peer reviewed. > > > S a n d y Correlation != causation. What are the figures on other crimes? I presume they would have to have gone up, since the criminal element has been deprived of it's "revenue" in this manner. Perhaps they simply didn't have time for killing, raping and assulting; being too busy lugging around their legally concealed handguns and pointing them at shop-keepers. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff at suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From declan at well.com Wed Aug 7 18:29:29 1996 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:29:29 +0800 Subject: G7 Threat Alert from international Net-coalition (8/7/96) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:27:21 -0500 To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Subject: G7 Threat Alert from international Net-coalition (8/7/96) Sender: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu [Redistribute widely. Add'l info at http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ --Declan] ====================================================================== ALERT FROM A COALITION OF ONLINE CIVIL LIBERTIES ORGANISATIONS G7 THREAT TO ONLINE FREE SPEECH AND PRIVACY IN THE NAME OF COMBATING TERRORISM THE G7 IS PLANNING TO CURB THE FREE SPEECH RIGHTS AND PRIVACY OF INTERNET USERS 7 AUGUST 1996 PLEASE REDISTRIBUTE THIS DOCUMENT WIDELY WITH THIS BANNER INTACT REDISTRIBUTE ONLY IN APPROPRIATE PLACES & ONLY UNTIL 30 SEPTEMBER 96 ______________________________________________________________________ IN THIS ALERT: Summary Background What You Can Do Where Can I Learn More? Organisations ______________________________________________________________________ SUMMARY On July 30th the G7 group of nations met in Paris to discuss terrorism. Among other responses the G7 have endorsed a number of restrictions and controls on the Internet. These include the prohibition or censorship of sources that may contain "dangerous" information, restrictions on the electronic speech of unpopular political organisations, and the imposition of "key escrow" or other means of allowing governments to violate privately encrypted correspondence. This particularly serious threat, which originates from recent events such as a bombing at the Atlanta Olympics and the crash of TWA Flight 800, is another case in a long list of attempts to restrict freedom of speech in electronic networks, of which there are alarming examples in many countries including Australia, Belgium, China, France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, the USA and Vietnam, under a variety of pretexts ranging from "pornography" to "terrorism" and incorrect political opinion. * The "offensive" material being targeted is no different from similar material available in libraries and bookshops. *What is legal offline must also be legal online*. If material cannot be censored at the newsstand or the university library, it must not be censored in the online newsstands and libraries of our future. * Legislators and agency officials are pushing for speedy passage of censorious and privacy-harming laws, capitalising on fear of terrorism to exclude meaningful public input in the process and substance of these regulations. * Because the Internet is global, and every culture has its own rules about what is and is not permissible, the open nature of the Internet must be protected. No local jurisdiction should be allowed to impose its rules on the rest of the world. ______________________________________________________________________ BACKGROUND This alert is being issued by a coalition of online civil liberties organisations that support online privacy, freedom of speech and human rights. The organisations are listed at the end of this alert along with contact details. Since its inception the Internet has more than doubled in size every year. If this growth continues, more than one billion people will be using the Internet by the turn of the century. Each of these users can as easily publish material as they can read it. The Internet has the potential vastly to improve the workings of democratic government and to spread liberty across the globe. In light of recent bombings in the US and elsewhere, there are again calls to ban from the Internet information on explosives, as well as any other issues that can be related to "terrorism". Anti-terrorist hysteria has become the excuse for governmental attempts to circumvent online freedom of expression, guaranteed by constitutions, laws, and the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Information on how to make bombs, as well as other things that would be "banned", is widely available, often from the very governments pushing for censorship. Banning such publications from the Internet won't make it any less widely available. However it could become the tool for the censorship of any debate or opinion which happens to displease the authorities, or "pressure groups" that do not share those opinions. This is a pure and simple violation of free speech, no matter how it is disguised. Currently, communicating via the Internet is like sending messages on postcards. Anyone between the sender and receiver can read the message. Encryption (data scrambling) technology can be used to ensure the privacy of communications. It's like placing messages in envelopes. Although widely available the technology has not yet become a part of the Internet because of pressures from the "intelligence" and law enforcement agencies. Some countries, such as the United States, treat cryptography as if were a weapon, like missile or a machine gun, and ban its export. Other countries, such as France, have an outright ban on cryptography. Such policies threaten to undermine information infrastructure not only locally, but globally, leaving computer networks open to industrial espionage, and as we are seeing in recent news of electronic spying on the European Parliament, even governmental espionage, as well as criminal exploitation. What the G7 have called for is a way to read all messages sent by terrorists. The only way they can achieve this is to have some way of reading messages sent by anyone. What the G7 are demanding is that the privacy of all communications be compromised in the name of protection from terrorism. However, no real terrorist is going to use such a compromised system when uncrackable alternatives already exist and are freely available. Effectively G7 are demanding that we all compromise the privacy of our communications - for NO benefit. ______________________________________________________________________ WHAT YOU CAN DO 1. Be alert to what your government is doing or planning. Contact your law-makers and urge them to protect privacy and free speech on the Internet. Write to or call publications in your area and suggest that they report on any anti-freedom government action you hear about. 2. Join an online civil liberties organisation. See the end of this release for contact information for several such organisations. 3. If there isn't an online civil liberties organisation in your country, why not start one? Some suggestions on how to start an online civil liberties organisation are available at: http://pobox.com/~mbaker/creating.html and http://www.well.com/~jonl/bonfire.html ______________________________________________________________________ WHERE CAN I LEARN MORE? Further details on the G7 meeting and its effect on the Net can be found in a press release from the Global Internet Liberty Coalition: http://www.aclu.org/gilc/index1.html For a summary of efforts around the world to censor the Internet see the "10 May 96 Silencing the Net" report on the Human Rights Watch gopher site: gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:5000/11/int/hrw/general For background on global efforts to muzzle the Net see these web sites: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ http://www.eff.org/~declan/fight-censorship/ http://www.io.org/~sherlock/doom/threat.html For information on global and international online freedom issues see the Electronic Frontier Foundation web site: http://www.eff.org/pub/Global/ Translations of this alert will be available as follows: Catalan: http://www.lander.es/~jlmartin/ French: pforsans at in-net.inba.fr Italian: http://www.nexus.it/alcei.html Spanish: http://www.lander.es/~jlmartin/ ________________________________________________________________________ ORGANISATIONS The following organisations have issued this alert: ALCEI - Electronic Frontiers Italy * http://www.nexus.it/alcei.html CITADEL - Electronic Frontier France * pforsans at in-net.inba.fr EFF-Austin (Texas) * http://www.eff-austin.org Electronic Frontier Foundation (USA) * http://www.eff.org Electronic Frontier Canada * http://www.efc.ca/ Electronic Frontier Ireland * http://www.efi.ie/ Electronic Frontiers Australia * http://www.efa.org.au Elektronisk Forpost Norge (Electronic Frontier Norway) * http://www.sn.no/~efn Fronteras Electronicas Espan~a (Electronic Frontiers Spain) * http://www.lander.es/~jlmartin/ HotWired * http://www.hotwired.com/ Human Rights Watch * http://www.hrw.org Reporters sans frontieres * http://www.calvacom.fr/rsf/ Press Contacts: Please choose an organisation above and visit their web site for contact information. ________________________________________________________________________ End Alert ======================================================================== From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Wed Aug 7 18:29:38 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:29:38 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <9607078394.AA839458951@smtplink.alis.ca> ---------- From: John Deters Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 1996 3:35 PM To: James Bugden Subject: RE: Internal Passports At 11:39 AM 8/7/96 EST, jbudgen at alis.com wrote: > >I've seen the same problem in a department store in Ottawa. They would not >accept a Canadian Passport as identification for payment by cheque but would >accept various credit cards and similar devices. > >My conclusion was that they wanted something that would show my friend's credit >worthiness, not prove his identity. John Deters wrote: >On the whole, though, I have been finding that people ascribe all sorts of >paranoid evils to all sorts of organizations, when the ultimate truth >usually starts out more like a Dilbert cartoon. Internally, I can usually >spot the truly evil corporate deception practices. Externally, though, >people can only make guesses based on actions that they've become party to. >And who can blame someone for that? In the case cited above, I confirmed with the store's credit department that a Canadian passport was not considered a valid piece of ID. I suggested that this was due to credit concerns but they denied this. For obvious reasons, I did not believe them. My opinion is that a rule that stated "two pieces of ID that showed credit worthiness" was either too complicated or too unpalatable to use. Instead, the rule is "two pieces of ID" with the definition of ID tacitly restricted to items that indicate credit status. Either that, or Canadian passports are too easy to get forged in Ottawa. This "keep it simple stupid" approach showed itself this week when I attempted to order replacement cheques from my bank over the phone. I was told that they needed my signature, but a signed fax request would be sufficient. I remarked that it was trivial to apply a forged signature to a fax. The response from the person was - wait for it - that I would then have to come in and sign for it in person. It was impossible to convince them that this was not just a problem with my fax machine, but a problem in general. Eventually, I typed up a fax request in Word, pasted in my previously scanned signature, and sent this to the bank. This made them happy, but I might be changing banks soon. In the physical world, a big lock or a steel door can indicate good security. Most people can evaluate the strength of this type of security fairly well. Until we have good analogies for the equivalent types of digital security, we will continue to face real problems. James From sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org Wed Aug 7 18:30:51 1996 From: sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:30:51 +0800 Subject: crypto CD source In-Reply-To: <199608060504.GAA00115@server.test.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Adam Back wrote: > > Cypherpunks archive? > > http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/ > > The earlier archives were at www.hks.net, try mailing cactus at hks.net. I've a bunch of .gz files for the filtered cypherpunks list I run, they should contain stuff as far back as last year. How would I get these to ya? ========================================================================== + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder at dorsai.org|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| --------------- |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | Just Say "No" to|KA|law abridging the freedom of speech' |==\|/== + v + | Janet Reno & GAK|AK| do you not understand? |======= ===================http://www.dorsai.org/~sunder/========================= Key Escrow Laws are the mating calls of those who'd abuse your privacy! From sandfort at crl.com Wed Aug 7 18:35:31 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:35:31 +0800 Subject: STEGO GUNS In-Reply-To: <199608072128.HAA28140@suburbia.net> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Julian Assange wrote: > Correlation != causation. What are the figures on other crimes? I'm waiting for the official study itself, but the article did say that the study showed a shift from violent crimes to property offenses. If so, that's a trade I'll make any day. I'll see if I can get a copy of the study when it is released. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jk at stallion.ee Wed Aug 7 18:36:08 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:36:08 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: <199608072029.NAA29976@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: > F2 is a secret hash from SecurityDynamics, and is used in > their client software. (Its not the hash in the cards, but > if anyone has a copy of that, it might be fun.) As I have to deal with SecurID tokens in the nearest future, I would like to hear more opinions about these cards. IMHO a proprietary algorithm like used in those cards is a bad thing and I would like an open approach much more, I still believe SecurID OTP cards are much better then usual passwords. At Defcon this year they promised to tell about some security flaws in SecurID tokens, anyone know more about that? Personally I believe that Security Dynamics should come out with some kind of new systems in the nearest future, now that they own RSA. J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 7 18:40:50 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:40:50 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You can act through a corportion; if you are using it as a true "alter ego", it will be put aside by the courts and you will be assessed back taxes, interest, and penalties. The employer will also. If the person who pays you, has the _right_ (exercised or not) to tell you how to do the work.... you are his employee. This is a summary, but a good one. From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 7 18:49:56 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:49:56 +0800 Subject: Wee Beasties on Mars Message-ID: <199608072246.PAA25637@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:34 AM 8/7/96 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote: >> schryver at radiks.net: > >> > NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the >> > planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years >> > ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed >> > on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. > >NASA is holding a news conference today to discuss the find. I must >admit I am curious as to how they determined the meteor's origin. >Most material in the solar system is similar in composition. I've only seen a few vague news items on TV about this. I believe they said that gases in pores in the rock matched the constituents of the Martian atmosphere. Also, they said that the rock was a bit less than the size of a football, and was found in Antarctica. It's fairly "clean" there, at least from the standpoint of organic contamination. Also, while I've heard nothing of its exact physical location, if it is in the middle of a large ice sheet that pretty much excludes terrestrial origin, because there is a limit to how far a volcano on Earth can blow a rock. In any case, the kind of rocks typically ejected from volcanoes are well known. Once it's agreed to be from "out there," the question is where. If it had been possible to bring back rock from the landers that have analyzed Mars, a direct comparison would have been possible. (of course, if that had been possible, we'd have heard about it already...) The moon is excludable, since it has no atmosphere and apparently never had one. (as well as the fact that we have samples of the moon to compare.) Venus is highly unlikely, because it has such a thick atmosphere that material would probably not escape were a meteor to hit. Mercury is even more unlikely, because it would probably take way too much energy to raise the sun-gravitational potential of a fragment of Mercury to that of the earth. Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are basically liquified gases, so there would be no rocky material to eject. Jupiter's moons are a different issue. Anyway, I've got to get back to reviewing some episodes of "My Favorite Martian", just in case... Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 7 19:29:13 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:29:13 +0800 Subject: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Furthermore, one's ten years of required FICA contributions for eligibility to collect Social Security or Disability, are a statutory proviso, not an administgrative "favor" that the SS Administration grants us. That is to say, even if their computer doesn't show you as having enough contributions to be eligible, you are still entitled to make your own independent showing of the fact that you made the payments. It is NOT required that they have been "credited" to your account all along. There are many many many ways to document for posterity, payment of funds. We don't have to depend upon subversive foreign nationals who think they are hot shit because they work at building bigger and better computer surveillance-state systems. From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 7 19:56:38 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:56:38 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199608071019.FAA15721@sr.radiks.net> Message-ID: No, they announced that some organic substances had been found which _coul have_ derived a lifeform. There are natural means by which the substances could have arisen. I shouldn't have been surprised by the speed with which the pop media/cartoon news networks have jumped all over this. Shit, even William Jefferson Can't-keep-his-pants-zipped has gotten into the soundbites on this one. From jad at dsddhc.com Wed Aug 7 20:50:29 1996 From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:50:29 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807194053.0096f9ac@labg30> At 11:39 AM 8/7/96 EST, jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca wrote: > >I've seen the same problem in a department store in Ottawa. They would not >accept a Canadian Passport as identification for payment by cheque but would >accept various credit cards and similar devices. > >My conclusion was that they wanted something that would show my friend's credit >worthiness, not prove his identity. Being employed by a department store, and working closely with our trainers and our loss prevention people, for the last ten years has given me a pretty good vantage point into seeing what actually happens on the sales floor as well as what goes into the policy manual. I'd suggest that it's probably an oversight by their training department. Their trainers are just humans that looked around one day and said, "we need to define what an ID is." They Xeroxed a couple of dummied-up driver's licenses and provincial ID cards, pasted them in a book, and said, "there, that looks like all the acceptable ID I've ever seen around here." Using passports as internal ID is not a common occurrance, and this usage probably simply didn't occur to the trainers. It almost certainly was not the "fault" of the person on the sales floor; they're usually trained to look at these pretty pictures in a procedures book, and deny anything else. That said, it certainly *could* be true that their loss prevention or credit or audit departments decided that only "credit-worthy" people should be able to write checks. On the whole, though, I have been finding that people ascribe all sorts of paranoid evils to all sorts of organizations, when the ultimate truth usually starts out more like a Dilbert cartoon. Internally, I can usually spot the truly evil corporate deception practices. Externally, though, people can only make guesses based on actions that they've become party to. And who can blame someone for that? John -- J. Deters "Captain's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull." +-------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: jad at dsddhc.com (work) jad at pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'33"N by 93^16'42"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | PGP Key ID: 768 / 15FFA875 | +-------------------------------------------------------+ From TrustBuckFella at nowhere.com Wed Aug 7 22:30:11 1996 From: TrustBuckFella at nowhere.com (TrustBuckFella) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:30:11 +0800 Subject: TrustBucks Message-ID: <65tr6crmj9@nowhere.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- "Robert A. Rosenberg" writes: >I fail to see why/how the initial swap of TrustBucks(Alice) for >TrustBucks(Bob) followed by Alice returning the TrustBucks(Bob) [as >supposed payment] differs from her just paying with the TrustBucks(Alice) >in the first place [ie: He is willing to accept the TrustBucks(Alice) as >payment for the TrustBucks(Bob) that she will use to pay off her debt]. The >net result is the same - Bob has the same amount of TrustBucks(Bob) in > circulation and has an amount of TrustBucks(Alice) equal to Alice's payment > [the back and forth of the TrustBucks(Bob) is just playing "Right > Pocket/Left Pocket"]. I admit, my analysis is probably flawed and I appreciate you challenging me on it. But I think it's more complex than the net result of single transactions. The way I figure it, if Bob could accept / not accept any variety of TrustBucks, then he can manipulate what varieties he reports being able to give in order to escape debts or manipulate what varieties he reports being able to accept in order to keep debts unpaid (for interest, foreclosure, etc.) For instance, Alice is paying off her credit card, which pays Bob a big 17% interest. Bob would rather not let her off early. "Nope, we aren't accepting TrustBucks( Carol ) this week. TrustBucks( Dave )? Let me see.... hmm... nope, sorry ma'am." For instance, Alice has just eaten at Le Cafe Bob, and is about to leave. Presented with the cybercheck, she "discovers" that she hasn't got anything Bob is willing to accept. "Sorry 'bout that, Bob. Ooh, hafta run! Bye bye." So it seems to me that the simplest course is to allow payment in exactly one variety, the payee's own. Bob can't credibly claim to not trust himself. You might object that the same problem is incurred anyways in TrustBucks. If Bob refuses to trade TrustBucks( Bob ) for TrustBucks( Carol ), isn't it the same thing as refusing TrustBucks( Carol )? I think it's subtly different, though. If Bob can accept other people's currency, he need not issue any himself. He can credibly refuse early payment, since no TrustBucks( Bob ) even exist. If Bob can only accept TrustBucks( Bob ), then Alice, who reports having no TrustBucks( Bob ), can't "innocently" incur debts she finds she cannot pay. >If the value is obscured there is still no verification of how much they >have outstanding. So long as all of the TrustBucks are listed (with the >amounts listed correctly but obscured), there is no way to verify that the >claimed total is accurate unless you monitor their list before the swap and >after it and there is only one new TrustBuck listed (with the correct As I said, my mechanisms are probably suboptimal and possibly flawed. That's why initially I presented TrustBucks without extraneous mechanisms until that was objected to. However, in this case the information that is wanted is whether a certain note is outstanding or not. The sum of the list is not needed. Indeed, one could have multiple lists for multiple identities. Or so it seems to me. Come to think of it, including the value doesn't do much. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.1 iQCVAwUBMgkhuJi7GCxryNrZAQGD+wP/QuVPojsniRdqsiqSC/vnXqBp91cJIiEl p5cyd1dKfEvMcqW0BKB0sFq3dqFh7dEBsbDZeh17gfJnQ7oBvQgXRqhEHst0UOCd r3+tzE5jLr7OnW1fhxo1Q2529EcEJgDA23Rp/92j7WTjJEYkb1uu2v61Uo3x00j0 XpHdq2x9jhM= =6Onp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mch at squirrel.com Wed Aug 7 22:39:24 1996 From: mch at squirrel.com (Mark C. Henderson) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:39:24 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <199608070259.TAA17424@toad.com> Message-ID: <9608071707.TE12105@squirrel.com> On Aug 6, 19:59, Bill Stewart wrote: > Subject: Re: Internal Passports > At 07:37 PM 8/5/96 -0700, you wrote: > If you're _employing_ Anglos, you're currently required to disrespect their > honesty and demand proof that their papers are in order to fill out the I-9 > form. > There's a list of "one from column A or one from columns B and C" > of acceptable papers, such as passports, birth certificates, > driver's licenses, US Military ID, etc., which the government uses >... > None of that is really proof of citizenship - after all, you could > have renounced your US citizenship and become stateless or joined > a foreign government. Driver's licence and social security card are currently enough. Before 1989 (or so, I'm not sure about the cutoff) the SSA issued unrestricted social security cards to people on temporary visas who had authorization to work for some period (e.g. students on an F-1 visa could then work on campus - and the SSA would issue an ordinary unrestricted social security card). After 1989, I understand, that social security cards issued under these circumstances are marked "not valid for employment without INS documentation" or something similar. So, it is perfectly possible to have a social security card and a driver's licence without having the right to work in the U.S. The I-9 documentation doesn't prove anything. I note that California requires some sort of documentation (birth cert, INS documentation etc.) for a new driver's licence. Don't know about other states. probably related story: This might explain why in 1994 when I was travelling back home to Vancouver B.C. from Europe via the states (cheap ticket), the U.S. immigration officer asked me "Do you have a social security number?". I said yes. She then asked "do you have your social security card with you?" I didn't have it, and said so. She asked to see my ticket on to Vancouver, and that was it. I thought it was weird at the time as I'm used to various questions, and hearing one that I didn't expect at least made the experience mildly interesting. -- Mark Henderson -- mch at squirrel.com, henderso at netcom.com, markh at wimsey.bc.ca ViaCrypt PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1 A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46 unstrip for Solaris, Wimsey crypto archive, TECO, computer security links, change-sun-hostid, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ - http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/ From sandfort at crl.com Wed Aug 7 22:53:12 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:53:12 +0800 Subject: CONCEALED GUN STUDY Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, A list member was kind enough to send me the URL for the Chicago University study. I was thoughtless enough to immediately forget who our benefactor is. Sorry, friend. Anyway, the URL is: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/~llou/guncont.html Below, I have reproduced the abstract of the study. I will read it in detail when I can carve out some time. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Abstract Using cross-sectional time-series data for U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992, we find that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have right-to-carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravate assaults would have been avoided yearly. On the other hand, consistent with the notion of criminals responding to incentives, we find criminals substituting into property crimes involving stealth and where the probabilities of contact between the criminal and the victim are minimal. The largest population counties where the deterrence effect on violent crimes is greatest are where the substitution effect into property crimes is highest. Concealed handguns also have their greatest deterrent effect in the highest crime counties. Higher arrest and conviction rates consistently and dramatically reduce the crime rate. Consistent with other recent work (Lott, 1992b), the results imply that increasing the arrest rate, independent of the probability of eventual conviction, imposes a significant penalty on criminals. The estimated annual gain from allowing concealed handguns is at least $6.214 billion. From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 23:12:41 1996 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:12:41 +0800 Subject: STEGO GUNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608080121.SAA20077@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > >C'punks, > >On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Julian Assange wrote: > >> Correlation != causation. What are the figures on other crimes? > >I'm waiting for the official study itself, but the article did >say that the study showed a shift from violent crimes to property >offenses. If so, that's a trade I'll make any day. > >I'll see if I can get a copy of the study when it is released. > > > S a n d y > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In 1981, the city of Kennesaw, GA suffered 17 violent crimes and 55 burglaries. In 1982, Kennesaw passed an ordinance requiring all city residents to own a firearm, and there was only 1 violent crime and 19 burglaries. In 1983, Kennesaw experienced 3 violent crimes and 9 burglaries. I think that the cause-effect relationship is obvious. Jonathan Wienke "A conservative is a liberal who got mugged last night." --Lee Rodgers Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Wed Aug 7 23:13:58 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:13:58 +0800 Subject: Alien life Message-ID: <01I805OF0QJ49JD2RG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"schryver at radiks.net" "Scott Schryvers" 7-AUG-1996 11:08:59.39 >NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the >planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years >ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed >on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. A: This is not cypherpunks material. I am replying to try to prevent urban legend formation (of the UFO suppression type). B: You are quite thoroughly misinformed, as is NBC News if it is claiming the same thing. What have been found are some molecules, of the type known as polycyclic hydrocarbons (same sort as makes up cholesterol, in essence), that _may_ have been produced by a lifeform. Other, unliving chemical processes, such as combustion under the proper conditions (see buckyballs & buckytubes), can produce the same thing. Yes, it _may_ be from life, but we aren't certain yet. It is most certainly not a fossil, and the type of life form that it _may_ have come from is as yet not possible to determine. -Allen, Ph.D. graduate student in microbiology and molecular genetics From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 7 23:14:33 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:14:33 +0800 Subject: [Noise] Mars Needs Lifeforms Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960807201915.00b01754@mail.teleport.com> At 05:20 AM 8/7/96 -0500, Scott Schryvers wrote: >NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the >planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years >ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed >on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. But did it use encryption? --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From charlee at netnet.net Wed Aug 7 23:15:13 1996 From: charlee at netnet.net (kickboxer) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:15:13 +0800 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <199608080343.WAA16449@netnet1.netnet.net> this really is not my mail (hey, isnt this a GREAT example of a SPAM? keep this for reference, so you can tell what other spams look like!) From ddt at lsd.com Wed Aug 7 23:35:57 1996 From: ddt at lsd.com (Dave Del Torto) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:35:57 +0800 Subject: [STEGO] Your_Name in This Space Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- fellow 'punks, An artist named Zolt�n Szegedy-Masz�k is doing some interesting work for an organiztion named "C3" (the "3" is a superscript and it's pronounced "see-cubed") in Budapest, Hungary. C3 is an arts/culture/net.communication organization funded by the Soros Foundation, SGI and Matav (the Hungarian telephone company). They have a nice little Silicon Lab with an Onyx and a few Indy's, PC and Macs, and Zoltan has a page up on one of the Indy that demonstrates his "Cryptogram" generator: This project takes ASCII text strings and converts them into 3D models by assigning vertex coordinate values based on the ASCII codes encrypted by what I'll call a "key model." Essentially, it's a simple 3D steganography engine. It's rather intriguiging from a cryptographic perspective (pun intended). Zoltan sees it as a way of transferring .wrl fies among VRML afficionados, but also as a way of embedding messages. Definitely worth a peek: try your own name in VRML, light sources and all. :) Also check out C3's main site at: . dave ___________________________________________________________________ Cryptography is the entertainment branch of the computing industry. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv Comment: Verbum sapienti satis est. iQCVAwUBMgkRo6HBOF9KrwDlAQEjygP9GnnyGNPO8pIjgEnQaU//VIUh/DUANB1L 67XcAZ2dzTZ4/fGrDrTjaj/9AGH2Hx7R6szqDX5CLhP1fP+wUevBkKKvAqVoP8vU kRWb55iX3vsHN43jS0e4npKhil+HsXD8m7+tIFXIrPBRGcE+V1nbPaQpTG7LkBbO tFWREzxX+U8= =P7oA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From raksha at brainlink.com Wed Aug 7 23:37:57 1996 From: raksha at brainlink.com (It Is I Raksha Who Answer) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:37:57 +0800 Subject: FCPUNX:DoubleClick: Does is track browsing across multiple sites? In-Reply-To: <199608072158.AA15664@dorsai.dorsai.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Anne Eisenberg wrote: > *Does anyone know whether DoubleClick really is tracking browsing patterns > across multiple sites? They claim to be able to do this; is it just > advertising hype, or does anyone have knowledge of its actually doing so? > Many thanks. > > Anne Eisenberg > aeisenb at duke.poly.edu Hi Anne, nice to see you again. :-) I was involved in the setup of the DoubleClick system while contracting out to Poppe Tyson, who are partnered with them and located in the same building. Poppe Tyson hosts many web sites for their advertising accounts. When I was there, they were carrying T. Rowe Price; Chrysler; Pepsi; Siemens; Valvoline; LensCrafters; and the list goes on. Because the two networks are located in the same building and the two firms working together, it is very possible for DoubleClick to be able to scan the sites that poppe.com supports. -- ()()()()() "The ubiquitous cut, the Self possession is ]{ |BTCOMH|-| exotic join..." -- J. Valley -=======================]O\\\{O | (tm) | | "This life I LEAD! This job I 9/10 of the law ]{ |______|-| *DO*! This...ENGLAND!" -- Ray From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Wed Aug 7 23:39:16 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:39:16 +0800 Subject: Washington Post -- "Block but Verify" Message-ID: <01I80894N1WU9JD2RG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"frissell at panix.com" "Duncan Frissell" 18-JUL-1996 06:17:23.58 > 57. The CyberNOT list contains approximately 7000 >sites in twelve categories. The software is designed to enable >parents to selectively block access to any or all of the twelve >CyberNOT categories simply by checking boxes in the Cyber Patrol >Headquarters (the Cyber Patrol program manager). These >categories are: > Racism/Ethnic Impropriety: Prejudice or discrimination > against any race or ethnic culture. Ethnic or racist > jokes and slurs. Any text that elevates one race over > another. In other words, if I say that there's something wrong with a culture that doesn't encourage education (e.g., the "acting white" name-calling in American lower-class black subcultures), the entire Cypherpunks list archives would be banned by their standards by any parents who didn't want their children seeing KKK literature? TCMay has also said things of that nature (and I agree). This definition is way overly PC. -Allen From harka at nycmetro.com Wed Aug 7 23:45:20 1996 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:45:20 +0800 Subject: Corporate e-mail poli Message-ID: * Carbons sent to: In: jims at mpgn.com -=> Quoting In:jims at mpgn.com to Harka <=- In> The whole question comes down to this: In> Is a collection of words written from an employee to another In> individual property of the company when it was written, edited, In> and transmitted by company equipment. I think, a 'collection of words', especially when exchanged on a personal level should be regarded as 'intellectual property' and thus should be protected from outsiders. The technical means of physically creating (i.e. writing) and transmitting the words are secondary for above all they are thoughts, that are meant to be exchanged from one mind to another. It is too natural a thing to be subjected to invasion. Harka ... Not tonight, dear. I have a modem. ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] From adam at homeport.org Wed Aug 7 23:52:19 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:52:19 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608080339.WAA17283@homeport.org> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?= wrote: | Wed, 7 Aug 1996 anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: | | > F2 is a secret hash from SecurityDynamics, and is used in | > their client software. (Its not the hash in the cards, but | > if anyone has a copy of that, it might be fun.) | | As I have to deal with SecurID tokens in the nearest future, I would like | to hear more opinions about these cards. IMHO a proprietary algorithm like | used in those cards is a bad thing and I would like an open approach much | more, I still believe SecurID OTP cards are much better then usual | passwords. I happen to run a mailing list, sdadmin, for folks to talk about SDTI technologies. Talk to majordomo at jabberwocky.bbnplanet.com. There are a number of cards out there. I've been looking at CryptoCard & SNK recently, as well as V-One's smartmouse & virtual smart card technologies. I'd be very interested in seeing the algorithims come out, especially F2. I have a few attacks that look very nice on paper that I'd like to try out. | At Defcon this year they promised to tell about some security flaws in | SecurID tokens, anyone know more about that? My understanding is that the guy who was going to give the talk had nda difficulties. Vin? Did you make it out? The talk was going to be on race conditions, denial of service attacks, and the like. | Personally I believe that Security Dynamics should come out with some kind | of new systems in the nearest future, now that they own RSA.=20 This should be interesting, if they can find people to make things happen before 2000. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 7 23:57:23 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:57:23 +0800 Subject: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad In-Reply-To: <199608071538.LAA08433@jekyll.piermont.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > (Oh, and by the way, Dr. Hallam-Baker -- I consider suicide, which is > counted in the HCI "statistics" on gun deaths, to be a perfectly > legitimate use of a weapon. Its every person's right to off themselves > any time they like by my way of thinking, and you have no right to > force people to live against their will any more than you have the > right to force them into slavery.) Concur, as long as the estate is charged the cleaning bill. If you off yourself with a gun, please put down plastic. It's simple, it's effective, and it's considerate. > > Perry > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Aug 7 23:57:53 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:57:53 +0800 Subject: Anonymous Remailers at work In-Reply-To: <9608071713.AA13368@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk> Message-ID: <199608080410.XAA29450@manifold.algebra.com> Peter M Allan wrote: > > From: Bill Stewart > > I've recently run into a couple of business problems at work > > that could be solved by (slightly modified) remailers. > > > 1) Manager performance review, suggestion boxes, and questions to > > visiting honchos - there are several departments that are using > > "email to the secretary who'll take your name off and forward it" > > to handle this problem. Remailers are an obvious solution. It is a little funny solution. What prevents me from writing five positive performance reviews about myself, anonymizing them and sending to my boss? What prevents someone from writing a very negative performance review about someone else and forwarding it to their bosses (has been done numerously:)? A system analogous to anonymized voting may be useful in this case. Simplified for a real-life office, it may be the following. Suppose we have N workers. The secretary's program generates N random numbers and publishes ONLY their SHA hash values. It also prints the numbers themselves on separate pieces of paper. Secretary puts these pieces into a hat so that the numbers are not visible. Workers take one number each. Since they witness the procedure of taking numbers they know that they have their anonymity. Then they send the reviews of their peers to the management or publish them in internal newsgroups, of course anonymously, attaching the numbers given to them for verification. Since the list of checksums is (or may be) publicly known, there is little way to cheat by double voting, and there is little way to find out who wrote what. Of course in their peer reviews workers should beware of using cliches such as "Mr. X is a lying homosexual Sovok forger". :) - Igor. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 00:09:41 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:09:41 +0800 Subject: Job Opportunity - Distributed Document Work Message-ID: <01I807S4ULZ69JD2RG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> I can see some cryptographic implications to distributed documents, such as the relatively obvious one of making sure your competitor can't tap into them. -Allen =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help at weber.ucsd.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 04:04:00 PDT From: Allan_MacLean.Cambridge at RXRC.XEROX.COM Subject: Research Position at Rank Xerox Research Centre, Cambridge Research Position in Distributed Document Technologies at Rank Xerox Research Centre, Cambridge Rank Xerox Research Centre, Cambridge Laboratory is part of an expanding European based research centre which includes a second site in Grenoble. The Cambridge Laboratory carries out interdisciplinary research in the development and use of technologies for supporting distributed organisations, with a strong emphasis on the human and organisational aspects of technology in use. The laboratory has close links with a number of divisions of Xerox and Rank Xerox, and collaborates with other research groups in the UK, continental Europe and the US. Our research programme (Studies of Technology, Organisations and Work) combines social science and technical perspectives on the design of systems for use in the workplace. Our current research projects are examining the boundaries across which distributed document work is conducted. In formulating our long-term research strategy we are focusing on investigating these in terms of personal; inter- and intra- organisational; work-practice; cultural; temporal, and geographical boundaries, and developing ways to take account of their implications for system design. We are seeking a research scientist to play a major role in developing new approaches to distributed document technology from this perspective. The appointee is likely to have a background in computer science or a related discipline, with an understanding of distributed and collaborative technologies. Applicants are expected to have a keen interest not only in the infrastructural issues of distributed systems, but also in incorporating social, organisational and psychological dimensions of work into the design and development of novel networked systems. The appointed person will take primary responsibility for the technological component of our programme and will join a multi-disciplinary team involving computer science, pychology and sociology. (Applicants for the recently advertised post in Requirements for Distributed Services need not re-apply as they will automatically be considered for this position.) Informal enquiries may be made to: Graham Button (button at cambridge.rxrc.xerox.com), +44 1223 341500 Allan MacLean (maclean at cambridge.rxrc.xerox.com), +44 1223 341517 Applicants should submit a Curriculum Vitae to: Sian Wicklow (ref. S1) Rank Xerox Research Centre 61 Regent Street, Cambridge CB2 1AB, U.K. wicklow at cambridge.rxrc.xerox.com Tel:+44 1223 341553 Fax: +44 1223 341510 http://www.xerox.com/RXRC/ From bdolan at use.usit.net Thu Aug 8 00:09:54 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:09:54 +0800 Subject: Mena In-Reply-To: <199608071506.PAA13182@pipe1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> Message-ID: Wall Street Journal, 5/3/94: "Our sources agree ... on a number of things: There was most likely a CIA-sponsored Contra operation run out of Mena, as well as a huge parallel cocaine-smuggling operation, money laundering and a Justice Department coverup. Much of this happened on Mr. Clinton's watch as governor." [...] "Mr. Clinton was asked by a state prosecutor for help to pursue the case ... Help was promised but never arrived." [...] "Mena is a perplexing and difficult story. There is a trail - tens of millions of dollars in cocaine profits, and we don't know where it leads. It is a trail that has been blocked by the National Security Council." - letter from Bill Plante, CBS News Correspondent and Michael Singer, Producer, CBS News On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, John Young wrote: > The Washington Post, August 7, 1996, p. A6. > > > CIA Probed in Alleged Arms Shipments > > Reports Claim Agents Involved in Arkansas-Nicaragua Drug > Swaps [...] > > Clinton has said he had nothing to do with any activities > at Mena. "Mena is the darkest backwater of the right wing > conspiracy industry," said White House spokesman Mark > Fabiani. "The allegations are as bizarre as they are > false." > > [End] > > > From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 8 00:11:01 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:11:01 +0800 Subject: Mondex security Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 09:11:16 +0900 From: Yuji Sakata To: www-buyinfo at allegra.att.com Subject: Mondex security Mime-Version: 1.0 Status: U once,I asked you violation of Mondex security. now ,I hear more information about this rumor. it is very ambiguous info, it is .. Mondex ask some universities to try to violate Mondex IC card security unofficialy. and every univ can do that or show how to do that. Mondex don't reveal this fact. please give me some infomation about this rumor,if you know. /// Yuji SAKATA(NTT Data Corporation) /// /// Voice:+81-3-5546-9571 Fax:+81-3-5546-9572 /// /// E-mail:sakata at open.rd.nttdata.jp /// --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Thu Aug 8 00:11:47 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:11:47 +0800 Subject: FAA to require transponders on all aircraft passengers Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960808023248.002efc00@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 00:49 06/08/96 -0500, Robert A. Rosenberg wrote: >They better hold off loading the containers with the luggage until they >lock down/up the plane so they can verify who got on (and can pull any >unaccompanied luggage). It is either that or unloading the plane if there >is a missing passenger. Many airports (e.g. Zurich) require you to identify your baggage on the way to the plane. If somebody merely keeps watch to ensure that you don't run away after identifying your baggage, the system works. There are problems that can be solved without computers :-) Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 00:27:46 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:27:46 +0800 Subject: South Korean ID Card Message-ID: <01I807XIOJLY9JD2RG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: Phil Agre [I have enclosed, with the author's permission, a letter from Joohoan Kim raising alarms about a proposed national electronic identification card in South Korea. JK encourages you to repost the information where appropriate.] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help at weber.ucsd.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= [I don't have the original header.] Hi, all, I would like to alarm you that another Big-Brother is coming with its most ambitios dream in South Korea: The Electronic Identification Card, which will be issued to every citizen as a mandatory within a year or so. The Electronic Identification Card project is a part of South Korean government's ultra-speed communication network building project. Managed by the Ministry of Domestic Affairs, the US $413 million project is being carried out in cooperation with the Korea Computer Institute. Once the project is completed in 1997, every Koreans of 18 years or older will be assigned a single integrated circuit (IC) card which will include photo and all kinds of personal digitized information: current universal ID card (currently every adult Korean has a photo ID issued by the Government), driver's license, medical insurance card, national pension card, proof of residence, and scanned fingerprints (!) among other things. (I don't know how many "demoratic" governments are collecting fingerprints of their whole citizens.) DACOM, a big telecommunication company in Korea, which won the bidding for the project, describes it as following: "As 8,000 characters worth of information can be stored on the single credit card-sized card, personal information needed for issuing official documents and certificates can be accessed promptly by public offices, institutions, companies, and banks or other organizations. The Ministry of Domestic Affairs has announced that the new cards will be distributed starting in January 1997. Full implementation is scheduled to be completed by early 1998. While there are some nations in which drivers' licenses are used in place of ID cards, this project will be the first system in the world which combines multiple functions onto one card. Once distribution is completed, the card will greatly boost efficiency, saving the government US$1.3 billion and enabling it to eventually reduce its work force by 5,000 employees." (Quoted from: http://bora.dacom.co.kr/bora/dacom/news-clips.html) As you can see, they have no concerns about protection of personal information and privacy. True, they are a company making money from that project, and probably we shouldn't expect any criticism against the Project. The problem is, however, that almost all of the South Korean news media are talking the same thing about it: the "efficiency" and the "convenience" that the Electronic Identification Card might bring about. I tried to find critical arguments against the project via a comprehensive news data base in Korea, but I could not find any. I also checked many web sites of non-governmental organizations and socio-progressive groups in Korea, but none of them have raised the issue yet. They do not seem to realize the suspending dangers of their own privacy and human rights. Despite obvious and serious danger in protecting personal information and privacy , there is just no social discourse concerning the issue. I have also checked relevant laws (especially newly approved communication-related laws) through the database of the Korean Government, but there seems to be no clear legal basis for the project. The project has been mentioned only in the "10 Plans for Efficient National Informatization," announced by the Ministry of Information and Communication. But the City of Seoul already started to issue the Card as a "test" in March. The Ministry of Domestic Affairs said, as they were issuing the "test" version of the Card to 1,000 citizens, "we will prepare relevant laws and regulations," implying that they are doing the project "before" (and probably "above") the law. Currently, I am writing columns and news stories for "Sisa Jouranl," the weekly news magazine in South Korea, which decided to deal with the Card project as a special topic as I suggested. To write a critical article against the Project, I am starting to gather info about the similar cases, if there is any. And I hope to hear from you about some theoretical and practical knowledge about the similar issues; I would like to quote your opinions in my article, if you allow me to do so. Right after the publication of the news article, I will try to contact various NGO's in South Korea to inform them of the importance of the issue. And I will try to organize an anti-electronic ID Card movement in the cyberspace, if that is necessary. I am very happy to meet you in the cyberspace, who really concerns the privacy issues in the computerized age. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Joohan ****************************************** Joohoan Kim Ph.D. Candidate 3620 Walnut Street Annenberg School for Communication University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104 sjokim at icg.stwing.upenn.edu http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~sjokim/home.html From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Aug 8 00:33:46 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:33:46 +0800 Subject: ****Tacoma, Washington Starts Taxing Internet Access 07/30/96 Message-ID: <199608080454.VAA04870@dns2.noc.best.net> At 05:08 AM 8/7/96 GMT, Brian C. Lane wrote: > A slight correction. They are imposing a 6% tax on the Gross receipts of > all Internet Providers who have customers in Tacoma. This includes AOL, > Compu$erve, and my local favorites - aa.net and eskimo.com So if someone has six thousand customers, one of whom is in Tacoma, they want six percent of his gross on the other 5999 customers? --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 8 00:35:20 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:35:20 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vinnie Moscaritolo writes: > 2) Apple is nowhere near dead, anyone who says this is either smoking > something harsh or lives in media painted world. The same people that say > Macs are dead are the same uneducated liberal buttheads who write in the > San Jose Merc Pravda about how a disarmed populus is a free(h)er one. Apple computer is dead, for all intents and purposes. It will be "officially" dead (bankrupt) within a couple of years. Writing any sort of software for the Mac - crypto or otherwise - is a waste of time. > so lets all grow a little thicker skin and move on with it. while you all > piss and moan, your rights are being stolen away, If you want to help > crypto suceed then you have to care about Macs, just as much as windoze or > Sun or Be or whatever platform. Please don't waste valuable resources writing software for a dead platform. Mac crypto software is as useless as CP/M or Apple ][ crypto software. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 00:36:10 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:36:10 +0800 Subject: Babble about universal service Message-ID: <01I807LCWIHW9JD2RG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> I wish that people (like Phil Agre, who claims to be in favor of democracy on the Net) might get it through their heads that many - probably most - of those already on the Net have no desire to see every redneck on the planet on here, much less pay for the privilege of their being able to send inane messages to us. -Allen From: IN%"rre at weber.ucsd.edu" 17-JUL-1996 23:08:46.62 From: Phil Agre =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help at weber.ucsd.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: 2 Jul 1996 17:03:29 GMT From: rh120 at columbia.edu (Ronda Hauben) Organization: Columbia University Report 1 I just returned from a fascinating week in Montreal, Canada where I attended the INET '96 conference held by the Internet Society. I will try to write some reports about what happened at the Conference in the next week or two as it would be good to have the online community discuss some of the issues that were raised at the Conference. What became clear at the conference was that this is an important time in the development of the Internet. People from around the world attended the conference and most expressed the desire that the Internet be made available in their countries for education and scientific and other uses. Some of the focus of the conference was on business uses of the Internet, but it seemed that there was a great concern among the people I spoke to that the Internet be available for educational and scientific and government and community purposes, not just for business uses. I want to start this report however, with the last talk that was given at the conference. The final talk was to be given by Reed Hunt of the U.S. Federal Communications Commission. He didn't attend however, and instead the talk was given by Blair Levin, Chief of Staff at the FCC instea. A version of the talk is available at the FCC www site. The talk was a surprise as it seemed uninformed both about the history and importance of the Internet and of the important public policy considerations that need to be taken into account when making any rules for regulating the Internet. At the beginning of the talk, there was the statement that Reed Hunt was the first FCC Chairman to have a computer on his desk, but that he asked his staff to explain how the Internet works. So instead of a commitment to learn about how the Internet developed and the significant impact it is having on the world, the speech presented us with the glib "the Internet gives us the opportunity to change all our communications policies." The problem with this is that the FCC is therefore starting from scratch, throwing out all the lessons that have helped the Internet to grow and develop, and instead, creating its own models. In his talk Blair Levin listed five principles. They were: 1) How can public policy promote expansion of band width? 2) What rules can we get rid of or have? 3) The concern with pricing. 4) How to make sure it reaches everyone, especially kids in schools. 5) How to make sure it reaches across the globe. The problem with this was that it took universal service as the 4th point, and then basically substituted access by kids in schools for the principle of universal service. During the talk Blair described how the NTIA (the National Telecommunications Information Administration) had submitted an important paper to the FCC on the issue of voice over the Internet. This made clear that the NTIA has not submitted any paper to the FCC on the issue of universal service, despite the fact that they held an online hearing on several issues, including universal service and the Internet, in November 1994 and the NTIA has done nothing to act on the broad expression of sentiment for universal service that was expressed during that online public meeting. When asked about that online meeting, Blair said that the FCC knew of the meeting. However, it seems to have had no effect on their deliberations, or on the request of people that the FCC open up their decision making process so that the people who are being affected by their decisions have a means of providing input into those decisions. In response to a question about the need for universal service Blair responded that that was the obligation of other branches of the U.S. government like the Department of Education. He said this despite the fact that at the current moment the FCC is supposedly making rules to provide for the universal service provisions of the Telecommunications Act passed by the U.S. Congress in Feb. 1996. Also, he claimed to welcome submissions into their process, but when told that it would cost over $50 to pay postage costs for a submission since there were over 35 people who had to be served (and postage on a minimal submission was $1.45), he said to see Kevin Werbach a lawyer at the FCC, who had come with him. Kevin Werbach offered no means of dealing with the high cost of making a submission. Many people at the Internet Society Conference applauded in response to the question about the lack of concern by the FCC for the principle of universal service to the Internet. At the Internet Society conference many people spoke up about the need in their countries, whether that be Canada, or Norway, or Ghana, etc. for the Net to be more widespread and available to the public for educational and community purposes. Many were concerned about the lack of ability of the so called "market forces" to provide networking access to other than corporate or well to do users. Yet here was a talk being given in the name of the Chairman of the regulatory body in the U.S. charged with making the rules to provide for universal service, and the talk was unconcerned with the important issues and problems that issue of providing universal service to the Internet raises. It is unfortunate that Reed Hunt didn't come to the conference and take the challenge to learn what the real concerns of people around the world are with regard to access to the Internet. Isolated in Washington, with no access to him possible for most people (though someone from one company told me that he was told to send him email whenever he had a concern), it seems difficult for the rules process to be able to produce any helpful outcome. There need to be open meetings and sessions where people who are concerned with these issues are invited to be heard and to discuss these issues with the FCC. Instead the process is going on behind the same closed doors that the crafting of the Telecommunications Act was created by the U.S. Congress. It is a tribute to the Internet Society that they did make an effort to invite government officials like Reed Hunt to the conference. The FCC will be setting an example for the rest of the world by the telecommunications policy rules it creates. Will the policy be one that recognizes that the so called "market" cannot provide the free or low cost access to the Internet that is necessary to make such universal service a reality? Will the rules created be based on looking back at how time sharing and the the ARPANET and the Internet developed so it can build on those lessons? To have those rules be based on firm lessons from the past and firm principles that can make them fruitful, it is necessary that the FCC process creating those rules be much more open than it is at present. If the FCC could learn from the experience of the Internet and set up newsgroups and real email access to the officials involved that would demonstrate a commitment to a more equitable access to the Internet and to the fcc rulemaking that is needed to make the Internet available to all. But from the recent talk by the FCC official presented at INET '96, there seems little indication that the need for an open process and a many to many means of communication is recognized among those at the FCC and thus there is even less evidence that the FCC is capable of making rules to apply the principle of universal service to make Internet access available to all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Hauben Teachers College Dept. of Communication Amateur Computerist Newsletter http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/acn/ WWW Music Index http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/music/ Netizens Netbook http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/ Netizens Cyberstop From amnesia at chardos.connix.com Thu Aug 8 00:47:15 1996 From: amnesia at chardos.connix.com (Amnesia Anonymous Remailer) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:47:15 +0800 Subject: PGP public key servers are NOT useful! In-Reply-To: <199608071637.MAA08532@jekyll.piermont.com> Message-ID: <199608080315.XAA28868@comet.connix.com> "Perry E. Metzger" writes: > John Anonymous MacDonald writes: > > The problem with the PGP public key servers is that > > one has absolutely no control over what gets uploaded there in one's > > own name. > > Thats why people are supposed to use the web of trust to check the > keys. You claim to make your key available by finger. How do you know > that Mallet isn't switching the bits as they go down the wire to your > correspondants? The only way to verify a key is to check known good > signatures on it. Because of this, no security is needed on key > storage facilities per se -- you aren't supposed to trust keys without > signatures. > > Geesh. I thought this was obvious. I guess not. > > Perry The web of trust just certifies that the key belongs to someone. If you'd read to the end of the message, you would have seen that I was not complaining about the key certification process in PGP. At issue is NOT whether a key can be trusted to belong to someone, but whether or not random people should be able to tag others' PGP keys with crap. What I want to prevent is some person I dislike uploading his signature on my key (particularly if he adds another ID to my key and signs that). How would you like it if I added a new ID to your key containing sort of insult, certified that ID, and uploaded the new signature to the key servers. Alternatively, what if I uploaded 5 "vanity" keys in your name to the PGP key servers. Most software would download one key, fail to certify the signature, and therefore not allow someone to communicate with you even if that person could have verified your real key. I don't understand what the purpose of a centralized key server is, when the owner of a public key should be the one to control what certificates and tags are given out with his/her PGP key. From roger at coelacanth.com Thu Aug 8 00:48:05 1996 From: roger at coelacanth.com (Roger Williams) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:48:05 +0800 Subject: Wee Beasties on Mars [NOISE] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>>> Jim McCoy writes: > ... the most interesting fallout of this will be in > the creationism/evolution debate. Perhaps, but I doubt it. > It seems that life may have > been independantly generated at multiple locations, barring a > "space seed" debate flaring up again, and the "impossible odds" > argument has become pretty weak... I doubt if it weakens the Creationists' stand, though. After all, if God created life on Earth, she could have created it anywhere else she wanted, without having to ask permission of the inhabitants of the "third rock from the sun". [As you're no doubt aware, this has been, in part, the premise of several moderately-successful SF novels.] ObCrypto? Are you kidding -- cryptogamology, maybe... -- Roger Williams finger me for my PGP public key Coelacanth Engineering consulting & turnkey product development Middleborough, MA wireless * DSP-based instrumentation * ATE tel +1 508 947-8049 * fax +1 508 947-9118 * http://www.coelacanth.com/ From sam at wwa.com Thu Aug 8 00:50:28 1996 From: sam at wwa.com (Scott Marquardt) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:50:28 +0800 Subject: DoubleClick: Does is track browsing across multiple sites? Message-ID: <01BB849E.E98494E0@pool12-010.wwa.com> Yo, some bozo subsribed me to this thing. Who's the administrator? I want off (no offense; I'm sure it's an interesting forum, but I don't like being mail-bombed by way of forgery). Whoever administers this thing, I'd be glad of a copy of the headers on the message that subscribed me. Thanks -- Scott Marquardt From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 00:57:18 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:57:18 +0800 Subject: New domains, Internic, etcetera Message-ID: <01I809WUXS5S9JD2US@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Given previous discussion on here about Internic and their policies, the below URLs may be of interest: http://www.iiia.org/lists/newdom/ ftp://ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/internet-drafts/draft-postel-iana-itld-admin-01.txt The former is the list archive for a list discussing getting more internet domains & equivalents of Internic. -Allen From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 8 01:11:20 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 16:11:20 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1XsBsD52w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Alan Horowitz writes: > You can act through a corportion; if you are using it as a true "alter > ego", it will be put aside by the courts and you will be assessed back > taxes, interest, and penalties. The employer will also. > > If the person who pays you, has the _right_ (exercised or not) to tell > you how to do the work.... you are his employee. This is a summary, but a > good one. Alan, if you have access to Usenet, check out the draft misc.jobs.* conventional wisdom FAQ that I posted a few days ago... It's probably unexpired in sci.research.careers at most sites. Look for the 'IRS 20 questions'. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 8 01:13:36 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 16:13:36 +0800 Subject: Public report of the EU crack. Message-ID: <199608080520.WAA29193@toad.com> >Hallam-Baker wrote: >>I consider the political dimension of this affair to >>be more significant that the technical. This brings the >>US and the French into the same category of anti-crypto >>government with a habit of poking its nose into other >>people business and getting caught. Phill - do you know if the French ever got caught actively breaking computers or telecomm equipment outside their country, or have they only been hit for eavesdropping and breakins on their subjects and foreigners within their boundaries? It seems like the US government, if they really did this, has gone a step beyond even France's level of tackiness, as well as exceeding the "legitimate needs of law enforcement" that Louis Freeh has been ranting about. Is this some campaign to reinforce Clinton's call for protecting the National Information Infrastructure, or have they decided that voluntary key escrow is too slow so they'll steal what they can now? The technically interesting part is just that there are bugs in routers and SNMP can be used to attack them. We've seen bugs before, and we've seen bugs used to bug people. At 02:20 PM 8/5/96 -0700, drose at AZStarNet.com (David M. Rose) wrote: >> >> Phill > >Say what? John Young I can understand; this blather? > >Att: "Doc" Baker/Mr. Hyde, err, Hallam: any rudimentary text on >diction/grammer/syntax might be helpful to you. > >Sheesh! At least Sternlight seemed to be acquainted with the English language. > David - It's good form, if you _must_ flame people's spelling and grammar on the net, to spell grammar correctly. Understanding grammar well enough to recognize correct English when you see it is a fine point mainly noticed by people whose abilities run beyond the capability of running a spellchecker; Phill's is fine (except a missing 's), if lacking JYA's obscure poetic touch. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 8 01:37:15 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 16:37:15 +0800 Subject: STEGO GUNS Message-ID: <199608080544.WAA20087@mail.pacifier.com> At 07:28 AM 8/8/96 +1000, Julian Assange wrote: >> >> The nationwide study [from the University of >> Chicago] found that violent crime fell after >> states made it legal to carry concealed handguns: >> * Homicide, down 8.5%. >> * Rape, down 5%. >> * Aggravated assault, down 7%. >> ... >> The drop isn't primarily caused by people >> defending themselves with guns, says John Lott, >> the study's author. Rather, criminals seem to >> alter their behavior to avoid coming into contact >> with a person who might have a gun. >Correlation != causation. What are the figures on other crimes? I >presume they would have to have gone up, since the criminal element has >been deprived of it's "revenue" in this manner. Perhaps they simply >didn't have time for killing, raping and assulting; being too busy >lugging around their legally concealed handguns and pointing them at >shop-keepers. I think this is relevant, albeit in an indirect way, to cypherpunks. We're all familiar with some of the various ways that government tries to justify intrusion based on arguments which look superficially plausible. The nationwide 55 mph speed limit is one, which was first supported based on the claim that it saved gas, but later the justification changed to saving lives. Yet recently studies have shown an actual decrease in accidents in states which raised the speed limit. The other big correlation (which turns out to be an anti-correlation!) is the idea that allowing people to carry concealed handguns leads to greater numbers of deaths. By this study, that claim is shown to be false as well. The reason this is all relevant is that cryptography is currently under attack by the US government, under the guise of ITAR, with the implicit claim that the availability of good crypto will somehow help "terrorists, drug dealers, child pornographers, and Jim Bell" (oops! sorry about that one...) We, on the other hand, recognize that the advent of good cryptography will protect us far more than it might arguably harm us. All of us on CP (except, probably, Sternlight) would gladly accept a world where unrestricted crypto is ubiquitous. By showing previous examples of how government makes false claims and misuses (or ignores) statistics to support its actions, we can challenge any presumptions it makes regarding crypto. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 8 01:48:15 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 16:48:15 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: Cypherpunks make the news again. I'm watching the LA NBC news channel, and they report that the Oregon "look up any license plate" Web site is causing a flap. Though apparently legal, the critics admit, the Governor wants the material removed. (Sounds like a good time to mirror it on some other sites, pronto!) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jya at pipeline.com Thu Aug 8 02:34:11 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 17:34:11 +0800 Subject: Tim's Mac Tales Message-ID: <199608072350.XAA09867@pipe6.t1.usa.pipeline.com> Finger your delete key: What caught my eye in Tim's remarks about Apple was his continued use of Macs. Why was that enticing? It has to do with what hard-headed physicists know about hardware that soft-headed coders don't. So my curiosity: does Tim know Intel intel that we don't know, and can't tell it? More generally, do chip physicists know what crypto coders don't, about the covert features of those world-pervasive chips inside? Would Tim tell, could Tim disclose intel, what the world doesn't know about Intel, about what Intel's hard-headed Moore, the immigrant physicist, whispers in utmost secrecy to Microsoft's soft-headed Gates, the American-way coder? Is soft-hearted OS code the front for cold-hearted hardware spying? Maybe the most that Tim can tell without exposing Intel is that Tim uses Macs. Still, is Motorola more trustworthy than Intel, and if so, for whom? What do Apple insiders know that the world needs to know about the deals of Intel insiders, are they working with inside the Beltwayers, gobbling world-markets, gobbling intel chip by chip? Is Motorola doing the same with its adorable cellulars and satellites and boards and hardware galore, using benign code to conceal hardware malice? Dreamy, maybe, but hard-hearted Tellers did it to the Oppenheimers, and everyone knows that physicists truly enjoy playing dice with God. (Hold on, Tim, this is the way I write after thirty years of grinding out grim technical reports.) From grafolog at netcom.com Thu Aug 8 02:48:56 1996 From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 17:48:56 +0800 Subject: STEGO GUNS In-Reply-To: <199608080121.SAA20077@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 1996 JonWienk at ix.netcom.com wrote: > In 1981, the city of Kennesaw, GA suffered 17 violent crimes and 55 > burglaries. > In 1982, Kennesaw passed an ordinance requiring all city residents to own a Said ordinance being passed, as a protest against Elk Grove, IL passing an orinance, banning handguns. Anybody know when Elk Grove revoked their ordinance? Crime went down for six months there [ Elk Grove ] after the ban was passed, then it went up --- far surpassing previous crime levels, for all types of crime. xan jonathon grafolog at netcom.com Illiterate: adj. Inability to read write or speak five or fewer languages. Funksioneel Ongeleerd: a. Die wat kon nee elf or meer tale lees, skryf and gesprek. From deviant at pooh-corner.com Thu Aug 8 02:52:00 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 17:52:00 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: <9608071707.TE12105@squirrel.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Mark C. Henderson wrote: > > I note that California requires some sort of documentation (birth > cert, INS documentation etc.) for a new driver's licence. Don't know > about other states. > Hrmm... North Carolina requires 2 forms of ID, which can be an older Driver's license, a SS card, a military ID, a birth certificate, or (you'll love this one)... "A filled in job application"... It doesn't even have to be signed by the company, or any of that shit. I can walk over to RatShack, ask for an application, fill it out as "J. E. Hoover", and its a valid form of ID at the DMV. > probably related story: > This might explain why in 1994 when I was travelling back home to > Vancouver B.C. from Europe via the states (cheap ticket), the U.S. > immigration officer asked me "Do you have a social security number?". > I said yes. She then asked "do you have your social security card > with you?" I didn't have it, and said so. She asked to see my ticket > on to Vancouver, and that was it. I thought it was weird at the time > as I'm used to various questions, and hearing one that I didn't > expect at least made the experience mildly interesting. > Hrmm.. that is a bit odd, isn't it? --Deviant THE MAGIC WORDS ARE SQUEAMISH OSSIFRAGE -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgmRsDAJap8fyDMVAQEZiAf/UFv/5SyUbKbz/L9/kz/qRKfp5ba/31wE O29E7NTV7uDayVjr8ofiZ70PRk7HWM1hqnalHGywO+W4eM3g5GfBa/m13Pqg0Lhm 9SOGMPiZSjALyhBfGkxOm8pMt7ex9X6VyQaS+ogyRyjLXfR0XzngIe21SOrfntn0 JWCk/SzsZ8G0ouP/u1CzbXcgE2YVoXR2diK6o9rE0NKVFmr3lyC2HrP2ECoqXVaG y+IZrpD0Zz5p6Bp4nMT0Pn+8+u9fH/Sse5VtbHqTmDKDIZm7NtQiHG6cZUcyYCyR 5oLT1vPCSYT1dax3/Ym8jUnNmLDk87ZoWJ15EQOFJopHEsjKRsb8ww== =aDJy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 8 03:04:09 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:04:09 +0800 Subject: Tim's Mac Tales Message-ID: At 11:50 PM 8/7/96, John Young wrote: >What caught my eye in Tim's remarks about Apple was his continued use of >Macs. Why was that enticing? I have no idea why it would be enticing, inasmuch as I've covered this a bunch of times. Though John is asking this as a joke, I'll pretend he's serious. At least for a few paragraphs. >It has to do with what hard-headed physicists know about hardware that >soft-headed coders don't. Amongst other things, an _operating system_ is not the same as a _CPU_. The Macintosh OS happens to run, for historical reasons, on Motorola processors, and DOS happens to run, for historical reasons, on Intel processors. Other operatings systems, such as Unix, tend to run on various processors. Had history evolved slightly differently, a DOS-like OS could have been dominant on Motorola CPUs, a Macintosh-like OS could have been dominant on Intel CPUs (indeed, many would say this is what Windows 3.x and later are), and so forth. Quibblers may jump in with the usual religious arguments about segmented architectures, the orthogonality of the 68000 instruction set, etc., but these points are tangential to the simple decisions about Seattle Computer and Microsoft coming up with a CP/M-like OS for Intel processors, and Apple committing to the Motorola family. (And recall that windowing systems _did_ exist for the Intel CPU even back in the 80s...Unix systems, including Sun's OS, ran on Intel CPUs.) As several of my messages over the years have explained, including the one sent out yesterday, the Macintosh visual metaphor was the closest to the LISP machine I had been using while at Intel. I did buy an IBM PC in '83 (and an S-100 Sol in '78), running DOS. I even bought Windows 1.0, a truly, totally, completely awful product! (Steve Ballmer of Microsoft admitted as much in his interview on "Revenge of the Nerds.") I looked closely at the Lisa in '83, but it was too expensive. The Macintosh in '84 was priced better, but also lacked a few key things. But by the time the Mac Plus arrived, I was ready to buy. That the CPU was a $40 chip from Motorola rather than a $40 chip from Intel was not even a consideration. (Intel bought Macs to do various graphics arts things, just as I'm sure Motorola bought PCs to do various things.) > >So my curiosity: does Tim know Intel intel that we don't know, and can't >tell it? More generally, do chip physicists know what crypto coders don't, >about the covert features of those world-pervasive chips inside? > >Would Tim tell, could Tim disclose intel, what the world doesn't know about >Intel, about what Intel's hard-headed Moore, the immigrant physicist, >whispers in utmost secrecy to Microsoft's soft-headed Gates, the >American-way coder? Is soft-hearted OS code the front for cold-hearted >hardware spying? I'm having my usual problems trying to parse this? Is this some sort of rhyme, a la "a horse is a horse of course"? Gordon Moore is not an immigrant physicist, not even an immigrant into California. He was born about 40 miles north of where I now live. >Maybe the most that Tim can tell without exposing Intel is that Tim uses >Macs. Indeed, I use Macs because Intel chips have those special NSA instructions in them, like the Cray did. (Funny, we haven't had this thread here that I can recall...it used to be a staple of sci.crypt in the late 80s.) > >(Hold on, Tim, this is the way I write after thirty years of grinding out >grim technical reports.) > I suspected as much, John. Your TRs must be doozies. (TRP, he of The Whole Sick Crew, used to hide from his officemates by placing a large sheet of blueprint paper over his head as he did engineering drawing work at Boeing.) --Tyrone Slothrope From deviant at pooh-corner.com Thu Aug 8 03:07:38 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:07:38 +0800 Subject: Wee Beasties on Mars [NOISE] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On 7 Aug 1996, Roger Williams wrote: > > I doubt if it weakens the Creationists' stand, though. After all, if > God created life on Earth, she could have created it anywhere else she > wanted, without having to ask permission of the inhabitants of the > "third rock from the sun". [As you're no doubt aware, this has been, > in part, the premise of several moderately-successful SF novels.] > But, on the other hand, it _could_ be used to strengthen the Evolution argument (which has been scientificly proven, so its not really an argument). If carbon can randomly be arranged here, why not on Mars? Same process, different rock. Personally, I can't see why some people refuse to accept that the to "theories" could very easily fit together... i.e. "God" made the world, and let the puzzle solve itself. (of course, this is assuming there is a "God", but... --Deviant "Evil does seek to maintain power by suppressing the truth." "Or by misleading the innocent." -- Spock and McCoy, "And The Children Shall Lead", stardate 5029.5. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgmV+DAJap8fyDMVAQF8Hwf+IbwmZaTXqogQAyGEgr0CjbeAfdl7HZBW 0XMKizZeMEu6IRW1Gh18hQLJYL7DuiJg//ymTAkIJFjPByiwhOe26pkgMAdtw632 wwWuWMI9h+X20U9vKvxtvjjKz2PScWJqiOC1kZex+V2qXdYuW2EF7oE+VYwl57dY cCtk10yUaHuwYMk6jZMMTY5KeF13u+NX2zLrpKRAa//gXNcaNtzOfHJhSaTzoR1D /cnej5j6E5pLRKolgyGLc0jZAyGMWS8t+QYWcVg6PHA1au12rmwdc2po7WoQnNyQ DbD+6PZrKAKOTnwiU4ytqgMQFnfRcVaxzB48MPn+TipaCPKl990hQg== =2h24 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bryce at digicash.com Thu Aug 8 03:12:13 1996 From: bryce at digicash.com (bryce at digicash.com) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:12:13 +0800 Subject: Scientists discover evidence of life on Macs! Message-ID: <199608080807.KAA23561@digicash.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Okay, I'll stop. Bryce -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2 iQB1AwUBMgmgKUjbHy8sKZitAQGH+AMAgUBwBqkZCbHw21xUwiarJe+Gzo+7yDqs gvX0Tos+/YdMSjl2fMbV8480qvbTz+r6izqh8y6D4Fv0sbM12PCUq2AoeJo35naI GWNV3yybBj2N0YsuOmvhQvcE/lDyVesF =kx/N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alano at teleport.com Thu Aug 8 03:17:41 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:17:41 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > Cypherpunks make the news again. > > I'm watching the LA NBC news channel, and they report that the Oregon "look > up any license plate" Web site is causing a flap. Though apparently legal, > the critics admit, the Governor wants the material removed. It also hit the front page of the Oregonian (Portland's most stogy newspaper). They had a quote from the person who put up the page claiming his reasons behind it was "that he did not like all those anonymous drivers out there able to act however they wanted". It will be interesting to see the state come out on the side of all those anonymous drivers. From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 8 03:23:38 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:23:38 +0800 Subject: ****Tacoma, Washington Starts Taxing Internet Access Message-ID: At 8:05 PM 8/7/96, James A. Donald wrote: >At 05:08 AM 8/7/96 GMT, Brian C. Lane wrote: >> A slight correction. They are imposing a 6% tax on the Gross receipts of >> all Internet Providers who have customers in Tacoma. This includes AOL, >> Compu$erve, and my local favorites - aa.net and eskimo.com > >So if someone has six thousand customers, one of whom is in Tacoma, they >want six percent of his gross on the other 5999 customers? ...and California wants 8.25%, Virgina wants 7.5%, ....., France wants 37%, Iraq wants it all, and Singapore wants it shut down. This is the flip side of regulatory arbitrage, I guess. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jwz at netscape.com Thu Aug 8 03:44:08 1996 From: jwz at netscape.com (Jamie Zawinski) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:44:08 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3209A1D4.7566@netscape.com> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Apple computer is dead, for all intents and purposes. It will be "officially" > dead (bankrupt) within a couple of years. Writing any sort of software for the > Mac - crypto or otherwise - is a waste of time. If you accept that, then doesn't that make writing crypto software for any Unix platform *even more* of a waste of time? Because last time I checked, there were way more Macs on mom-and-pop's desks than Unix machines, counting *all* vendors. Even if Apple folded *tomorrow*, those machines wouldn't vaporize. If you put easy-to-use strong crypto on a significant fraction of those desks six months from now, your work could easily have a lifetime of a year and a half even in your worst case scenario. (PS, I haven't used a Mac since 1985, so that's not why I say this.) -- Jamie Zawinski jwz at netscape.com http://www.netscape.com/people/jwz/ ``A signature isn't a return address, it is the ASCII equivalent of a black velvet clown painting; it's a rectangle of carets surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who.'' -- Chris Maeda From rp at rpini.com Thu Aug 8 03:46:23 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:46:23 +0800 Subject: CryptoCD Message-ID: <32099C37.4A15@rpini.com> If your interested in the upcoming CryptoCD, check out: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/cryptocd.html If you'll get one, once it's finished, mail to: mailto:cryptocd at rpini.com
see you, remo pini From jk at stallion.ee Thu Aug 8 03:56:54 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:56:54 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: <199608080339.WAA17283@homeport.org> Message-ID: Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Adam Shostack wrote: > J�ri Kaljundi wrote: > > | At Defcon this year they promised to tell about some security flaws in > | SecurID tokens, anyone know more about that? > > My understanding is that the guy who was going to give the > talk had nda difficulties. Vin? Did you make it out? The talk was > going to be on race conditions, denial of service attacks, and the > like. This is something that seems to be a little problematic to me. Considering the 3-minute time slot, it seems fairly easy to somehow block the SecurID server at the time a user is sending his username/passcode, steal that information and allow a malicious user to enter that information into the server. Or have I misunderstood some security aspects? J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 8 07:07:33 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 22:07:33 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce In-Reply-To: <3209A1D4.7566@netscape.com> Message-ID: Jamie Zawinski writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > Apple computer is dead, for all intents and purposes. It will be "officiall > > dead (bankrupt) within a couple of years. Writing any sort of software for > > Mac - crypto or otherwise - is a waste of time. > > If you accept that, then doesn't that make writing crypto software for > any Unix platform *even more* of a waste of time? Because last time I > checked, there were way more Macs on mom-and-pop's desks than Unix > machines, counting *all* vendors. Irrelevant. Unix boxes are multi-user. > Even if Apple folded *tomorrow*, those machines wouldn't vaporize. > If you put easy-to-use strong crypto on a significant fraction of > those desks six months from now, your work could easily have a lifetime > of a year and a half even in your worst case scenario. Scenario 1: writing a multi-platform comm program with strong crypto, and including a Mac port (like Mac PGP, or clients for various tcp/ip protocols) is only a minor waste of time. Scenario 2: writing an encrypted filesystem for the Mac is a minor waste. Scenario 3: Writing a comm program that lets Macs talk to each other with no consideration that some Mac users may wish to talk to other platform (or any other Mac-only software) is a major waste of time. Of course, Apple is pushing #3. They're worse than Microsoft. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From jk at stallion.ee Thu Aug 8 07:34:09 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 22:34:09 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: <199608081150.GAA18566@homeport.org> Message-ID: Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Adam Shostack wrote: > This doesn't work as of version 1.3(?) and later. There is a time > delay before the 'ok' message is sent by the server. If it gets two > correct login attempts in the delay period (1-5 seconds, default 2), > it assumes an attack is underway and rejects them both. Yes but what if you are able to block the correct user and only the bad boy gets a chance to log in? Shouldn't be so hard thing to do. J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From adam at homeport.org Thu Aug 8 08:48:00 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 23:48:00 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608081150.GAA18566@homeport.org> This doesn't work as of version 1.3(?) and later. There is a time delay before the 'ok' message is sent by the server. If it gets two correct login attempts in the delay period (1-5 seconds, default 2), it assumes an attack is underway and rejects them both. Adam =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?= wrote: | Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Adam Shostack wrote: | > J=FCri Kaljundi wrote: | > | At Defcon this year they promised to tell about some security flaws in | > | SecurID tokens, anyone know more about that? | > =09My understanding is that the guy who was going to give the | > talk had nda difficulties. Vin? Did you make it out? The talk was | > going to be on race conditions, denial of service attacks, and the | > like. | | This is something that seems to be a little problematic to me. Considering | the 3-minute time slot, it seems fairly easy to somehow block the SecurID | server at the time a user is sending his username/passcode, steal that | information and allow a malicious user to enter that information into the | server. Or have I misunderstood some security aspects? | | J=FCri Kaljundi | AS Stallion | jk at stallion.ee -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From declan at eff.org Thu Aug 8 09:01:51 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 00:01:51 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looks like we're a little late. However, we can still grab the tape from Oregon's DMV for $220. It would be an interesting excercise to try to get these tapes from each state with similar provisions and put them all online. Anyone want to donate server space? -Declan http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates Service has been temporarily suspended. Don't panic, I just want to think about the situation for a while. Stay tuned. --Aaron --- There is a very real chance that it will be turned off. That's becuase all of the people who hate it call the TV and Radio stations, the DMV, and their elected representitives. All of the people who love it send me email. As much as I appreciate hearing from all of you, sending me email doesn't let anyone else know how you feel. If you want to keep this service going, make your voices heard. On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > Cypherpunks make the news again. > > I'm watching the LA NBC news channel, and they report that the Oregon "look > up any license plate" Web site is causing a flap. Though apparently legal, > the critics admit, the Governor wants the material removed. > > (Sounds like a good time to mirror it on some other sites, pronto!) > > --Tim May > > Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! > We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." > > > > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From declan at eff.org Thu Aug 8 10:02:33 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 01:02:33 +0800 Subject: Babble about universal service In-Reply-To: <01I807LCWIHW9JD2RG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: I also wonder why universal service is such a Good Thing. It also, unfortunately, is on the agendas for the G-7-type meetings of information ministers from participating countries. http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ (My objections to universal service are perhaps not surprising. It devolves more power into the hands of the DC bureaucrats such as the FCC, and provides a slippery slope on which we can slide down towards more and more government regulation. By concentrating regulatory authority in the Federal government, it also makes decisions more subsceptible to special-interest lobbying and political patronage. But I recall Ronda has been arguing for universal service for some time now, including on the netizens mailing list.) -Declan On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, E. ALLEN SMITH wrote: > I wish that people (like Phil Agre, who claims to be in favor of > democracy on the Net) might get it through their heads that many - probably > most - of those already on the Net have no desire to see every redneck on the > planet on here, much less pay for the privilege of their being able to send > inane messages to us. > -Allen > > From: IN%"rre at weber.ucsd.edu" 17-JUL-1996 23:08:46.62 > From: Phil Agre > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). > Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. > You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use > the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions > for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help at weber.ucsd.edu > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > Date: 2 Jul 1996 17:03:29 GMT > From: rh120 at columbia.edu (Ronda Hauben) > Organization: Columbia University > > > Report 1 > > I just returned from a fascinating week in Montreal, Canada where I > attended the INET '96 conference held by the Internet Society. I will > try to write some reports about what happened at the Conference in the > next week or two as it would be good to have the online community > discuss some of the issues that were raised at the Conference. > > What became clear at the conference was that this is an important > time in the development of the Internet. People from around the > world attended the conference and most expressed the desire that > the Internet be made available in their countries for education > and scientific and other uses. Some of the focus of the conference > was on business uses of the Internet, but it seemed that there was > a great concern among the people I spoke to that the Internet be > available for educational and scientific and government and > community purposes, not just for business uses. > > I want to start this report however, with the last talk that was > given at the conference. The final talk was to be given by Reed Hunt > of the U.S. Federal Communications Commission. He didn't attend > however, and instead the talk was given by Blair Levin, Chief of > Staff at the FCC instea. > > A version of the talk is available at the FCC www site. > > The talk was a surprise as it seemed uninformed both about the > history and importance of the Internet and of the important public > policy considerations that need to be taken into account when making > any rules for regulating the Internet. > > At the beginning of the talk, there was the statement that Reed Hunt > was the first FCC Chairman to have a computer on his desk, but that > he asked his staff to explain how the Internet works. So instead > of a commitment to learn about how the Internet developed and the > significant impact it is having on the world, the speech presented > us with the glib "the Internet gives us the opportunity to change > all our communications policies." > > The problem with this is that the FCC is therefore starting from > scratch, throwing out all the lessons that have helped the Internet > to grow and develop, and instead, creating its own models. > > In his talk Blair Levin listed five principles. They were: > > 1) How can public policy promote expansion of band width? > 2) What rules can we get rid of or have? > 3) The concern with pricing. > 4) How to make sure it reaches everyone, especially kids in schools. > 5) How to make sure it reaches across the globe. > > The problem with this was that it took universal service as the 4th > point, and then basically substituted access by kids in schools for > the principle of universal service. > > During the talk Blair described how the NTIA (the National > Telecommunications Information Administration) had submitted an > important paper to the FCC on the issue of voice over the Internet. > > This made clear that the NTIA has not submitted any paper to the FCC > on the issue of universal service, despite the fact that they held an > online hearing on several issues, including universal service and the > Internet, in November 1994 and the NTIA has done nothing to act on the > broad expression of sentiment for universal service that was expressed > during that online public meeting. > > When asked about that online meeting, Blair said that the FCC knew of > the meeting. However, it seems to have had no effect on their > deliberations, or on the request of people that the FCC open up their > decision making process so that the people who are being affected by > their decisions have a means of providing input into those decisions. > > In response to a question about the need for universal service Blair > responded that that was the obligation of other branches of the > U.S. government like the Department of Education. > > He said this despite the fact that at the current moment the FCC is > supposedly making rules to provide for the universal service > provisions of the Telecommunications Act passed by the U.S. Congress > in Feb. 1996. > > Also, he claimed to welcome submissions into their process, but when > told that it would cost over $50 to pay postage costs for a submission > since there were over 35 people who had to be served (and postage on a > minimal submission was $1.45), he said to see Kevin Werbach a lawyer > at the FCC, who had come with him. Kevin Werbach offered no means of > dealing with the high cost of making a submission. > > Many people at the Internet Society Conference applauded in response > to the question about the lack of concern by the FCC for the principle > of universal service to the Internet. At the Internet Society > conference many people spoke up about the need in their countries, > whether that be Canada, or Norway, or Ghana, etc. for the Net to be > more widespread and available to the public for educational and > community purposes. Many were concerned about the lack of ability of > the so called "market forces" to provide networking access to other > than corporate or well to do users. Yet here was a talk being given in > the name of the Chairman of the regulatory body in the U.S. charged > with making the rules to provide for universal service, and the talk > was unconcerned with the important issues and problems that issue of > providing universal service to the Internet raises. > > It is unfortunate that Reed Hunt didn't come to the conference and > take the challenge to learn what the real concerns of people around > the world are with regard to access to the Internet. Isolated in > Washington, with no access to him possible for most people (though > someone from one company told me that he was told to send him email > whenever he had a concern), it seems difficult for the rules process > to be able to produce any helpful outcome. There need to be open > meetings and sessions where people who are concerned with these issues > are invited to be heard and to discuss these issues with the > FCC. Instead the process is going on behind the same closed doors that > the crafting of the Telecommunications Act was created by the > U.S. Congress. > > It is a tribute to the Internet Society that they did make an effort > to invite government officials like Reed Hunt to the conference. > > The FCC will be setting an example for the rest of the world by the > telecommunications policy rules it creates. Will the policy be one > that recognizes that the so called "market" cannot provide the free or > low cost access to the Internet that is necessary to make such > universal service a reality? Will the rules created be based on > looking back at how time sharing and the the ARPANET and the Internet > developed so it can build on those lessons? To have those rules be > based on firm lessons from the past and firm principles that can make > them fruitful, it is necessary that the FCC process creating those > rules be much more open than it is at present. If the FCC could learn > from the experience of the Internet and set up newsgroups and real > email access to the officials involved that would demonstrate a > commitment to a more equitable access to the Internet and to the fcc > rulemaking that is needed to make the Internet available to all. But > from the recent talk by the FCC official presented at INET '96, there > seems little indication that the need for an open process and a many > to many means of communication is recognized among those at the FCC > and thus there is even less evidence that the FCC is capable of making > rules to apply the principle of universal service to make Internet > access available to all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Hauben Teachers College Dept. of Communication > Amateur Computerist Newsletter http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/acn/ > WWW Music Index http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/music/ > Netizens Netbook http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/ > Netizens Cyberstop > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Thu Aug 8 10:03:43 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 01:03:43 +0800 Subject: ****CyberWatch Security With Face Recognition 08/07/96 Message-ID: <9608081407.AA01011@rpcp.mit.edu> WELLESLEY, MASSACHUSETTS, U.S.A., 1996 AUG 7 (NB) -- By Bob Woods. A person's face may become much more valuable than providing good looks to everyone who sees him or her. That's because Miros Inc. has developed a new software product that uses face recognition to access secured areas on a network. Miros' "TrueFace CyberWatch" is described as the first product of its kind that controls access to secured data by using facial lines. The technology is based on neural networks technology invented by Miros President Michael Kuperstein and the company's Dr. James Kottas, and developed at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). Variability of people's faces is overcome in determining whether an actual face is the same or different than a face image that was previously stored. TrueFace CyberWatch uses Miros' software and a small video camera on top of the computer monitor to verify computer users when they try to access protected data. TrueFace "snaps" a picture of the current computer operator and compares it to images in a database of authorized users. Continued spot checks are taken to ensure the same user is at the computer. Some of the information that can be protected includes medical, financial, criminal, or military records, officials said. The system requires no training, is fast to use, and cannot be fooled by holding up a photo of a person. This technology has been used in other situations, including the securing of buildings or special areas, officials said. TrueFace CyberWatch is compatible with PC client/server standards and can be used alone or with other security programs, officials said. The client runs on Windows 95 and Windows NT operating systems, and costs $199. A bundle package, which includes a Connectix camera and the software, is priced at $298. Both products will be shipping within the next two months, officials said. (19960807/Press Contact: Christine Sheroff, Sheroff & Associates, 508-435-3306) From sbryan at maroon.tc.umn.edu Thu Aug 8 10:20:45 1996 From: sbryan at maroon.tc.umn.edu (Steve Bryan) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 01:20:45 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Apple computer is dead, for all intents and purposes. It will be "officially" >dead (bankrupt) within a couple of years. Writing any sort of software for the >Mac - crypto or otherwise - is a waste of time. Considering the fact that exactly this sort of advice has been offerred and has been wrong for over a decade, why should this oracular statement be any more accurate? Note that there is excellent crypto software available for the Mac (CryptDisk, PGPFone, and MacPGP for example). Vinnie's effort is a welcome attempt to arrange the "plumbing" so that crypto software is even more accessible on the most accessible OS. Sniping from the cheap seats is the last thing he should have to endure. From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Thu Aug 8 11:21:34 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 02:21:34 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960808143045.006ce858@gonzo.wolfenet.com> >| At Defcon this year they promised to tell about some security flaws in >| SecurID tokens, anyone know more about that? > > My understanding is that the guy who was going to give the >talk had nda difficulties. Vin? Did you make it out? The talk was >going to be on race conditions, denial of service attacks, and the >like. According to Mudge (who gave the talk), he *was* going to speak specifically on SecurID, but they were harassing him or something, and was afraid of a libel suit if he spoke on it. Instead, he chose to speak on S/Key flaws, many of which are the same as SecurID flaws. All of the attacks were on the stupidity of the implementations and protocols, not on the cryptographic algorithms. Some stuff can be found at http://www.l0pht.com/~mudge . //cerridwyn// From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 8 11:51:11 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 02:51:11 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608081508.IAA11479@mail.pacifier.com> At 11:16 PM 8/7/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >Cypherpunks make the news again. > >I'm watching the LA NBC news channel, and they report that the Oregon "look >up any license plate" Web site is causing a flap. Though apparently legal, >the critics admit, the Governor wants the material removed. > >(Sounds like a good time to mirror it on some other sites, pronto!) > >--Tim May No rush, Tim. I've got the whole thing on CDROM. In fact, the person who put the thing on the net got the data from me...through a friend. I bought it from a person who's been selling CDROM's of this data for a couple of years. The most recent revision (and the one that's on the 'net) is about 4 months old. So far, what's been put on the net is merely the "license plate # to address" lookup. We also have the "name to address" data... Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From alexf at iss.net Thu Aug 8 12:05:46 1996 From: alexf at iss.net (Alex F) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 03:05:46 +0800 Subject: A Global Village, or the future of porn on the net Message-ID: <199608081530.LAA21406@phoenix.iss.net> > At 10:00 24/07/96 +0000, Alex F wrote: > Java classes for males and females corresponding to VRML > objects. The class methods might include kissing, hugging, > spanking, restraining... > > A female object might be initialized with Hillary Clinton's face, Evangelista's > body... The thing is that most people who are into this stuff would probably view VRML graphics as too primitive to hold their interest for the sake of "stimulation." I would suspect that the people who would end up getting involved in putting Hillary/Evangelista in, ummm, compromising positions would probably do it for the humor value (not that the censor mongers won't have a fit over this anyway). When your CPU becomes the bottleneck in net connections and not the actual bandwidth, *then* some people might decide to spend the time rendering such things. However, w/ the state of things today I have yet to see a totally realistic looking rendering. You can usually tell a photo from a rendering. > many pornographic stories on Usenet, it won't be long before > famous personalities > routinely get violated in cyberspace. Talk about copyright: do > you have the right > to prevent someone from doing this to you? > I suppose slander would be some recourse, or you could copyright your likeness and use copyright violations as well. Many TV/Movie stars do this. Alex F =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Alex F alexf at iss.net Marketing Specialist Internet Security Systems =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From pclow at pc.jaring.my Thu Aug 8 12:08:35 1996 From: pclow at pc.jaring.my (peng-chiew low) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 03:08:35 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960808142120.006c075c@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: <320A1A48.5A93@pc.jaring.my> Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: > Have you seen Mudge's white paper on S/Key? Any ideas how I can get my hands on this paper? Thanks. From joelm at eskimo.com Thu Aug 8 12:16:58 1996 From: joelm at eskimo.com (Joel McNamara) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 03:16:58 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608081523.IAA15512@mail.eskimo.com> Not all states (Washington and California, for example) will sell their DMV lists. There is a gentleman that goes by the handle of Bootleg, that does sell CD-ROM versions of said listings (my guess where the Web site got the data from). Last heard, he had Oregon, Texas, and Florida. Oregon was the bargain around $220, Florida and Texas were about $500. Try 503-325-0861 for voice (don't know if that's still current). He may be on the Net, but I don't have an address. Joel At 05:57 AM 8/8/96 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Looks like we're a little late. However, we can still grab the tape from >Oregon's DMV for $220. It would be an interesting excercise to try to get >these tapes from each state with similar provisions and put them all >online. > >Anyone want to donate server space? > >-Declan > > >http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates > > Service has been temporarily suspended. > Don't panic, I just want to think about the situation for a while. > Stay tuned. --Aaron > >--- > > There is a very real chance that it will be turned off. That's becuase > all of the people who hate it call the TV and Radio stations, the DMV, > and their elected representitives. All of the people who love it send > me email. As much as I appreciate hearing from all of you, sending me > email doesn't let anyone else know how you feel. If you want to keep > this service going, make your voices heard. > > > >On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > >> >> Cypherpunks make the news again. >> >> I'm watching the LA NBC news channel, and they report that the Oregon "look >> up any license plate" Web site is causing a flap. Though apparently legal, >> the critics admit, the Governor wants the material removed. >> >> (Sounds like a good time to mirror it on some other sites, pronto!) >> >> --Tim May >> >> Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! >> We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. >> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- >> Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, >> tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero >> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, >> Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. >> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." >> >> >> >> > > >// declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // > > > > From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 8 12:24:21 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 03:24:21 +0800 Subject: Babble about universal service In-Reply-To: <01I807LCWIHW9JD2RG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: > I also wonder why universal service is such a Good Thing. It also, > unfortunately, is on the agendas for the G-7-type meetings of information > ministers from participating countries. http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ My thinking on this is, fine. Let them do it. It'll be like a python trying to eat a water buffalo. One which grows exponentially upon being eaten. To paraphrase Kipling, Kaa-blooie! :-). Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From minow at apple.com Thu Aug 8 12:30:16 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 03:30:16 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce In-Reply-To: <3209A1D4.7566@netscape.com> Message-ID: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >Scenario 3: Writing a comm program that lets Macs talk to each other with >no consideration that some Mac users may wish to talk to other platform >(or any other Mac-only software) is a major waste of time. > >Of course, Apple is pushing #3. They're worse than Microsoft. > Actually, we're not "pushing" this, we shipped it last year. It's available for all Macintosh (that have enough memory) computers in System 7.5.3 at no additional cost. For cypherpunks, it has two limitations: -- It requires a mutually-trusted nameserver. -- It is limited to 40-bit encryption to comply with ITAR. -- A version that does not encrypt the data channel is provided for countries with crypto import restrictions. On the other hand, it preserves authentication and is protected against replay attacks. The API's are published (and we provide sample code), so "any" Mac application can use the protocols to talk to "any" other application. Martin Minow minow at apple.com From svmcguir at syr.edu Thu Aug 8 13:33:48 1996 From: svmcguir at syr.edu (Scott McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 04:33:48 +0800 Subject: appropriate algorithm for application In-Reply-To: <3208DD65.237C228A@systemics.com> Message-ID: > Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: > > > > I need an algorithm/protocol that is capable of encrypting numerous > > files with separate keys, but there also needs to be a master key > > that will be able to decrypt all of them. Is there such a system > > that is relatively secure? I'd prefer the system to be as secure > > as possible, but in this application, security is secondary to > > functionality. Thanks... //cerridwyn// > > Are you after a working program, or just a design? > > You could always use an escrowed public key generator (discussed on > sci.crypt some time ago), where the keys all have a factor of 'N' > embedded in 'N', but encrypted with the master key. > > (I'd be prepared to write the code that generates the keys, if > someone does the "master decrypt" side of things). > > Gary > -- > pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland > Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 > ^S > ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T > > Why not just encrypt the files with regular, single key encryption and only use the public-key encryption on a master file holding a copy of all the individual keys? This would be faster right? Scott From perry at piermont.com Thu Aug 8 14:01:41 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:01:41 +0800 Subject: PGP public key servers are NOT useful! In-Reply-To: <199608080452.AAA08047@comet.connix.com> Message-ID: <199608081351.JAA14923@jekyll.piermont.com> Amnesia Anonymous Remailer writes: > The web of trust just certifies that the key belongs to someone. If > you'd read to the end of the message, you would have seen that I was > not complaining about the key certification process in PGP. At issue is > NOT whether a key can be trusted to belong to someone, but whether or > not random people should be able to tag others' PGP keys with crap. You still don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter what random idiots tag onto your key so long as there is no trust path between the user of the key and the idiot who tagged stuff on. If someone signs "grand wizard of the KKK" onto your key, what do you care if no one trusts the signator who attached the crap? > What I want to prevent is some person I dislike uploading his > signature on my key (particularly if he adds another ID to my key and > signs that). Why do you care? > How would you like it if I added a new ID to your key containing sort > of insult, certified that ID, and uploaded the new signature to the > key servers. I wouldn't give a flying rat's buttocks, because unless the signatures are widely trusted the information is noise. Perry From sandfort at crl.com Thu Aug 8 14:12:44 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:12:44 +0800 Subject: ****CyberWatch Security With Face Recognition 08/07/96 In-Reply-To: <9608081407.AA01011@rpcp.mit.edu> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote: > TrueFace CyberWatch uses Miros' software and a small video > camera on top of the computer monitor to verify computer users > when they try to access protected data. TrueFace "snaps" a > picture of the current computer operator and compares it to > images in a database of authorized users. Continued spot checks > are taken to ensure the same user is at the computer...and > cannot be fooled by holding up a photo of a person. How about substituting a video tape of an authorized user for the camera input? (Hey, it worked on the old Mission Impossible show and a whole slew of movies.) S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From nobody at REPLAY.COM Thu Aug 8 14:13:31 1996 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:13:31 +0800 Subject: Thank you. Message-ID: <199608081616.SAA01670@basement.replay.com> I forgot the name of the person who wrote the patches to the Linux kernel for stego. They work perfectly, and I had no problems setting it up. Many thanks. From ceridwyn at wolfenet.com Thu Aug 8 14:32:53 1996 From: ceridwyn at wolfenet.com (Cerridwyn Llewyellyn) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:32:53 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960808142120.006c075c@gonzo.wolfenet.com> At 01:27 AM 8/8/96 +0300, you wrote: >As I have to deal with SecurID tokens in the nearest future, I would like >to hear more opinions about these cards. IMHO a proprietary algorithm like >used in those cards is a bad thing and I would like an open approach much >more, I still believe SecurID OTP cards are much better then usual >passwords. > >At Defcon this year they promised to tell about some security flaws in >SecurID tokens, anyone know more about that? > >Personally I believe that Security Dynamics should come out with some kind >of new systems in the nearest future, now that they own RSA. Have you seen Mudge's white paper on S/Key? It isn't specifically regarding SecurID, but many of the flaws he discusses are fundamental to the nature of both S/Key and SecurID (and other OTP schemes), so apply to SecurID as well... //cerridwyn// From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Thu Aug 8 14:58:59 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:58:59 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960808154452.00c70514@vertexgroup.com> Have bandwidth, will travel. Server space available here. www.vertexgroup.com/dmv/ is good to go. Database front ends a speciality. At 05:57 AM 8/8/96 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Looks like we're a little late. However, we can still grab the tape from >Oregon's DMV for $220. It would be an interesting excercise to try to get >these tapes from each state with similar provisions and put them all >online. > >Anyone want to donate server space? > >-Declan > > >http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates > > Service has been temporarily suspended. > Don't panic, I just want to think about the situation for a while. > Stay tuned. --Aaron > >--- > > There is a very real chance that it will be turned off. That's becuase > all of the people who hate it call the TV and Radio stations, the DMV, > and their elected representitives. All of the people who love it send > me email. As much as I appreciate hearing from all of you, sending me > email doesn't let anyone else know how you feel. If you want to keep > this service going, make your voices heard. > > > >On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > >> >> Cypherpunks make the news again. >> >> I'm watching the LA NBC news channel, and they report that the Oregon "look >> up any license plate" Web site is causing a flap. Though apparently legal, >> the critics admit, the Governor wants the material removed. >> >> (Sounds like a good time to mirror it on some other sites, pronto!) >> >> --Tim May >> >> Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! >> We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. >> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- >> Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, >> tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero >> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, >> Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. >> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." >> >> >> >> > > >// declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // > > > From byrd at acm.org Thu Aug 8 15:13:40 1996 From: byrd at acm.org (Jim Byrd) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 06:13:40 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960808174142.006cb648@super.zippo.com> This appeared on AP today: ------- PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - A computer consultant who put a state list of motor vehicle records on the Internet suspended access to the site today after he was bombarded by complaints the service invaded people's privacy. From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Thu Aug 8 15:19:08 1996 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 06:19:08 +0800 Subject: An SSL implementation weakness? Message-ID: <83952437618205@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> The following weakness seems very obvious, I've got a partial writeup of this but before I turn it into a paper or something and arrange a demonstration of how it would work I thought I'd check to make sure (a) someone else hasn't mentioned it before, and (b) it is actually possible (it seems too simple to be true): 1. Using DNS spoofing, stage a hostile takeover of an address (for example using bogus referrals set yourself up as the delegated server for a DNS subtree). 2. Get a Verisign certificate for an arbitrary company and set up a bogus site at the stolen address. Lets say you steal www.megafoobarcorp.com. People connect to this site (which is actually your bogus site), Netscape (for example) displays the blue line and non-broken key (which is actually for your J.Random certificate rather than the real megafoobarcorp one) to show the connection is secure, and you've just subverted their site. The problem is that unless the user on the client side checks their certificates (which noone does), all they're told is "A secure link is established", not who the secure link is established to. Even if browsers did pop up a dialog to tell them who the secured connection was to, after about the third time people would click on the "Never show this incredibly annoying dialog again" option and never look at it again. This effectively reduces an attack on an SSL-enabled server to an attack on the DNS. Is this as simple as it seems, and is it worth doing a writeup on? Peter. From warrior at tateonline.com Thu Aug 8 17:34:52 1996 From: warrior at tateonline.com (Warrior) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 08:34:52 +0800 Subject: AOL crashes and burns Message-ID: <199608082016.PAA26169@ford.socomm.net> Great news, eh? From svmcguir at syr.edu Thu Aug 8 18:09:31 1996 From: svmcguir at syr.edu (Scott McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 09:09:31 +0800 Subject: appropriate algorithm for application In-Reply-To: <320A29E7.13728473@systemics.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Scott McGuire wrote >> ... stuff deleted ... >> >> >> Why not just encrypt the files with regular, single key encryption and only use >> the public-key encryption on a master file holding a copy of all the individual >> keys? This would be faster right? > >The main reason is so that anyone can generate new keys as and when >they please. The master key is not required for key generation, which >makes it more secure (ie. it spends more of its time in the safe) and >practical (the master key may be in a different building). > >Gary >-- >pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland >Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 >^S >^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T If the master file (or say master directory with one keyfile for each encrypted file) is encrypted with public key encryption, than anyone with the master public key can add a new encrypted file key but only the person with the master private key can remove one of those keys. Now that I think about it, this is like having each user encrypt their file with a conventional key and sending a PGP encrypted message with the key they used to the maintainer of the master file. Of course if you don't trust the users to give up a copy of the key, you would need to automate the procedure. Scott -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMgpQiN7xoXfnt4lpAQEBfwQAuHXSGhgWXr1S7gEKWH9iygLlSrioGjoz /4+kqXKW/Q1ygDub0W3Tdr54uHaltAD8V/uk539i2ToTA0HQwaQ/jQq4eyRWrASl bW1e5VWkJrKOm3J1qDSfIcoD7ACygwMb2Fxmp1w0GQ5uOOwjH8bow7YGMVPZKa/C pDLIbjT36bM= =18an -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu Thu Aug 8 18:11:52 1996 From: nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 09:11:52 +0800 Subject: Freedom vs. US-Citizens Message-ID: <199608081847.MAA13959@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/960808/news/stories/crashpoll_1.html Thursday August 8 1:14 PM EDT Terrorism Fears Prompt Support for Limits LOS ANGELES (Reuter) - Most U.S. citizens are willing to give up some civil liberties in order to fight terrorism, according to a poll published Thursday. A nationwide survey conducted by the Los Angeles Times after the explosion of TWA Flight 800 and the bombing at Atlanta's Centennial Olympic Park also showed that Americans favored economic sanctions over military action against countries involved in terrorism. It found that 65 percent of those surveyed were somewhat or very concerned that the fight against terrorism could bring restrictions on civil liberties but 58 percent said they would be willing to give up some liberties to help curb terrorism. Government and aviation officials have indicated that increased security measures at airports around the country could mean more thorough and time-consuming inspections of luggage, questioning of travelers and higher fares. Of those polled, 66 percent said they strongly favoured more secure airports, even at such costs, while 17 percent said they ``somewhat favoured'' such measures. Asked what action, in addition to trying those individuals responsible, the United States should take if the TWA crash is linked to another country, 40 percent favoured economic sanctions against that nation, 14 percent opted for military action, 10 percent thought both should be used and 8 percent thought no action should be taken apart from a trial. The telephone survey of 1,572 adults was conducted from Aug. 3 through Aug. 6 and had a margin of error of plus or minus three percentage points. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 18:15:03 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 09:15:03 +0800 Subject: Anonymous Remailers at work Message-ID: <01I81GCO6IQ49JD3GI@mbcl.rutgers.edu> I've been trying to encourage the scientific ethics people to have an email address for tips + information about using anonymous remailers. As can be seen by the first part (lack of an email address), I haven't gotten very far as yet... -Allen From richieb at teleport.com Thu Aug 8 18:41:55 1996 From: richieb at teleport.com (Rich Burroughs) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 09:41:55 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Looks like we're a little late. However, we can still grab the tape from > Oregon's DMV for $220. It would be an interesting excercise to try to get > these tapes from each state with similar provisions and put them all > online. This information has been available in Oregon for at least a couple of years on CD. I've always been concerned about the privacy implications of that service -- perhaps that's the upside of this story? That people do give a rat's ass about their privacy? I do think that the information should be able to be disseminated on the Net as long as it's legal. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ Rich Burroughs richieb at teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~richieb See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon New EF zine "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause From David.K.Merriman at toad.com Thu Aug 8 19:00:06 1996 From: David.K.Merriman at toad.com (David.K.Merriman at toad.com) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:00:06 +0800 Subject: PGP Mailer for the masses ? Message-ID: <199608081721.KAA17992@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com, provos at wserver.physnet.uni-hamburg.de Date: Thu Aug 08 12:20:42 1996 > Hi! > > Due to the possibility of governments prohibiting strong cryptography > the idea to provide an easy to use mailer with addressbook > and pgp functions arose on the german krypto mailinglist. The availabilty > of an easy to use product would greatly enhance the use of cryptography > on the internet and thus getting us nearer to the point of noreturn, > that > is the point where a prohibtion of cryptography is not any longer > possible. > I can testify to the integration and effectiveness of Pronto Secure (Windows version), which I've changed over to from Eudora Pro. As near as I can tell, PGP interface is seamless. Don't know if that's what you're looking for. Dave Merriman - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMglrIsVrTvyYOzAZAQEXIgP/eGi+VScrDU4laIc9HHRjBTGG09Et8yHb tPpXzQrvNsmmLsKqDxstUYm8K5UrmBAO0yBARueVuees4wH8zd5gh42kDjbkWa7g owR5ivjX6BEzAw4m07XlFSrhkCG+Or+/By0AM36y5G6gkgTcHBv8wj1pN+IZLPxY INbU+SmIikA= =RMrj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Aug 8 19:19:43 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:19:43 +0800 Subject: An SSL implementation weakness? In-Reply-To: <83952437618205@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <199608082324.SAA05497@manifold.algebra.com> pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote: > > Lets say you steal www.megafoobarcorp.com. People connect to this site (which > is actually your bogus site), Netscape (for example) displays the blue line > and non-broken key (which is actually for your J.Random certificate rather > than the real megafoobarcorp one) to show the connection is secure, and you've > just subverted their site. > > The problem is that unless the user on the client side checks their > certificates (which noone does), all they're told is "A secure link is > established", not who the secure link is established to. Even if browsers did > pop up a dialog to tell them who the secured connection was to, after about > the third time people would click on the "Never show this incredibly annoying > dialog again" option and never look at it again. > > This effectively reduces an attack on an SSL-enabled server to an attack on > the DNS. Is this as simple as it seems, and is it worth doing a writeup on? I do not know much about how SSL works, but SSH (Secure Shell) has a nice safety built in. It creates a database of known hosts and for each connection it matches the current host certificate (public key) with the old public key from the ssh's database of known hosts. If the keys mismatch, a warning is issued. It actually works. Maybe the same logic should be used in SSL? - Igor. From nozefngr at mail.apple.com Thu Aug 8 19:21:03 1996 From: nozefngr at mail.apple.com (CTH) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:21:03 +0800 Subject: Basic Unix Hacking Message-ID: <199608082320.QAA17952@scv2.apple.com> Is there a way to get a .plan file to execute shell script when it is read by finger?? I'm sure this is an old question, but it seems there must be a way. echo \"date\" or some damn thing that will execute as opposed to printing. The fingerD I am working with does not seem to call a .fingerrc file. -Chris .. But there *are* a million monkeys on the net, .. and I still aint seen no Shakespeare! ... ... smtp: nozefngr at apple.com .. page: 1.800.680.7351 .. http: http://virtual.net/Personal/nozefngr/ .. icbm: lat37*21'.lon121*5' .. .. the kabuki project: http://remarque.berkeley.edu/kabuki/ From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 19:23:30 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:23:30 +0800 Subject: Blurring the Chains of Causation Message-ID: <01I81HNSD4YG9JD3GI@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"tcmay at got.net" 1-AUG-1996 18:22:25.80 >Many of the proposed restrictions seek to further blur this chain of >causation, by making someone who provides access to materials which _may_ >later be used in a crime, or which may "inspire" someone to crime, a kind >of criminal. [...] >People who actually commit real crimes are the criminals, not those who >sold them Hostess Twinkies without first checking their blood sugar level. >Not those who let a library patron look at a "dangerous" book. And not >those who provided strong cryptographic tools which _might_ be used by >terrorists, pedophiles, and money launderers. Quite. One analogy that should bring things a bit closer to home to liberal types is that of zoning laws and restrictive covanents. The (unfortunately legally accepted) justification, as I understand it, for many zoning laws is that they prevent reductions in property values. Restrictive covanents, such as against blacks or AIDS patients, have the same argument for them, if one accepts the logic of the proposed restrictions. Blacks/whoever moving in causes racists (or people anticipating the actions of racists) not to want to move in or causes them to sell; this reduces local property values. By the logic of the proposed restrictions, that means blacks/whoever should be held responsible for the decrease in property values and barred or fined. Obviously, this whole idea is nonsense... only if you're the last _person_ in a chain of causation are you the person making a decision for which you should be blameable. (By person I refer to that people are the only beings capable of making such a choice. I neither treat cows as having rights/choices nor do I hold a bull criminally responsible for goring someone. Rights mean responsibility; choices mean consequences.) Otherwise, someone else has the chance to make their own decision and avert the negative results.... or not. -Allen From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 8 19:24:00 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:24:00 +0800 Subject: AOL crashes and burns Message-ID: At 8:16 PM 8/8/96, Warrior wrote: >Great news, eh? No big deal, as I see it. The only reason the AOL outage made the headlines is because of market share. My own local ISP goes out at times, sometimes for more than a day. And judging by the comments of others here (e.g, "my connection has been flaky," "My ISP was down for the past few days," "Could someone mail me the last 3 days worth of traffic?"), I suspect this is common. Market share is what generates headlines. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 19:31:42 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:31:42 +0800 Subject: Stealth cookies Message-ID: <01I81GMK7QGY9JD3GI@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"stewarts at ix.netcom.com" "Bill Stewart" 7-AUG-1996 06:58:56.42 >However, there's a way to cheat the cookie spec; I don't know >if this was intentional, but it was realized quickly by the market :-) >The issue is that your browser sends along an HTTP_REFERRER variable, >which points to the last page you visited before the current page. >It's useful for sites to find out where their pages are being referenced, >and they may (legitimately) want to only give out information if you're >coming from one of their previous pages. Does www.anonymizer.com filter out cookies and their requests? I'd also be curious if an alternate means of specifying the url (without having to manually type it in) is possible such that people would have problems doing a search for all pages connecting to a page. I.e., currently, I can search for pages connecting to a particular page through the anonymizer via doing an AltaVista search for link:/page/in/which/i'm/interested.html. If the person had to realize that, say, they had to do a search for page__in__which__i'm__interested.html, that could make unfriendly tracing of backlinks - sensitive backlinks if you're using the anonymizer - more difficult. -Allen P.S. The problem with blank pages from the anonymizer seems to be fixed, or at least I haven't run into it recently - thanks. From unicorn at schloss.li Thu Aug 8 19:38:31 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:38:31 +0800 Subject: ****CyberWatch Security With Face Recognition 08/07/96 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > C'punks, > > On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote: > > > TrueFace CyberWatch uses Miros' software and a small video > > camera on top of the computer monitor to verify computer users > > when they try to access protected data. TrueFace "snaps" a > > picture of the current computer operator and compares it to > > images in a database of authorized users. Continued spot checks > > are taken to ensure the same user is at the computer...and > > cannot be fooled by holding up a photo of a person. > > How about substituting a video tape of an authorized user for > the camera input? (Hey, it worked on the old Mission Impossible > show and a whole slew of movies.) Or a very accurate movie style mask? > > S a n d y > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Thu Aug 8 19:43:24 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:43:24 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960808234932.00902f58@vertexgroup.com> My main concern regarding access to this information rests in the fact that this database has always been available to anyone who understood how to get it and use it. Recently I received a letter from some credit card company offering to provide me with my credit report, social security history, and insurance related records on a regular basis (for a fee of course). How about my police, fbi, school, and dating records while we're at it. How much is already available only to those that know the ropes. Well today AP ran another story about the reaction surrounding Aaron's actions. Nice picture of the back of Aaron's head. They didn't print is lisense plate number either. ObCypherpunks: How many people do you know that are working on a day to day basis with medical records systems, the District Attorney's computers, your doctor's computers, state Department of Health, and so on. I'm sure it's come up before but isn't this an obvious of application of encryption and PAK (Public Access to Keys)? Any legislation currently to _require_ that medical records and such be encrypted with access restricted. Something like: Alice (my primary care giver) and I each have the key to the records that Alice stores. Bob (my dentist) has a legitimate need to these records so I issue Alice and Bob a new key. With that key, the software allows Alice to make a replicate (synchonizable at that) of the record and transfer it to Bob who uses his key to access the data. It may even be that _any_ time, any of the replicas are to be accessed _my_ private key must be employed although one may argue that in times of tragedy it would be prudent to get my medical history immediately. I would say there is little in those records that would help an emergency room doctor make life saving desisions. That anything that the ER should know about me to save my life should be on a Medical Emergency Bracelet. I guess it would not matter if you encrypted with a key short enough to mumble from the back of an ambulance. The market for encryption enabled applications is just about to take off. --j At 03:25 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >I agree that this project needed to be done to educate the public, but I >must say I'm glad my name isn't attached to it. > >To answer legitimate concerns about abuse, perhaps version 2 could make the >relevant http logs publicly available? So in addition to checking the >governor's son's driving record, you could check which other IP addresses >have been looking at the governor's son's driving record. Spider detection >and retaliation would also be nice. > >(Of course this would have the side effect of increasing the visibility of >the anonymizer/canadianizer/exonizer services, which would not be a bad >thing.) > >- -rich > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 2.6.2 > >iQBVAwUBMgppM5NcNyVVy0jxAQFjFwIAyio1QMkAC7/sH3PdVbGXuTImey+1ewg2 >Nxl7bZlZe/YvYlk2yomKW24bgZJ5Vjiecc7g35SM+jveLRWA0xgbkg== >=yDFP >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 8 19:49:22 1996 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:49:22 +0800 Subject: Fixes to loop.c et al. for DES,IDEA,stego now done In-Reply-To: <199608062350.QAA10693@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <4ue0dk$2g4@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article , Damien Lucifer wrote: > > >On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Ian Goldberg wrote: >> This directory contains patches to the Linux kernel to enable encryption and >> steganography of filesystems. Encryption allows you to have a scrambled >> partition or file that, with the proper pass phrase, you can mount, just >> like a normal filesystem. Steganography allows you to hide a filesystem in >> the low bits of, say, an audio file. You can even combine these two to hide >> a scrambled filesystem in the low bits of an audio file (see the example, >> below). > > >So the question on my mind, is can the loop device(s) be >multi-threaded? I decided to be clever one evening and moved all my home >directories to cfs directories.. unfortunatly when two instances of the >same user try to hit their CFS home directory at once, the whole machine >goes flubflub and and needs to be rebooted. Single threading didnt seem >like such a terrible thing when I installed cfs, but lately its become >rather restrictive and ugly to deal with. Please tell me theres a better >way. :) Well, unlike CFS, loop.c is part of the Linux kernel, which is single-threaded, so I guess loop.c is also single-threaded. However, I took care that deadlocks be avoided (mounting a loop device as another loop device (for example, hiding an encrypted filesystem as stego) caused me to think a bit, but I'm fairly confident that it works now). - Ian [For those that missed it, the URL is ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux/index.html mirror site: ftp://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego/index.html ] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgqEI0ZRiTErSPb1AQGI2gP+Pxq4auOpMSqVvCT9a/LRuj8fUhbmoG95 3hdYYRn/GWRZTK1IcdyUpVnIcHfS6SUz+0l39q/guMKfGGgPOOsWYMpL7rRcffZB ZzZ8lWxO0JCOTPE8NIEuvdI3T+8bnVROeQ9u/YjRPnhMMQaOTUoCclt2fUt2+6YD td9FWFl7Pvc= =d1Am -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rich at c2.org Thu Aug 8 20:09:28 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:09:28 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960808234932.00902f58@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, John F. Fricker wrote: > ObCypherpunks: How many people do you know that are working on a day to day > basis with medical records systems, the District Attorney's computers, your > doctor's computers, state Department of Health, and so on. I'm sure it's > come up before but isn't this an obvious of application of encryption and > PAK (Public Access to Keys)? Any legislation currently to _require_ that > medical records and such be encrypted with access restricted. "Require"? Wouldn't do shit. It's a social problem more than a technological problem. -rich From vznuri at netcom.com Thu Aug 8 20:14:56 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:14:56 +0800 Subject: visual programming Message-ID: <199608081912.MAA29522@netcom14.netcom.com> "cpunks write code". the whole concept of writing code may fundamentally shift in the future to something that is far more visually oriented. I tend to think so and think that this idea will be particularly fruitfully explored relative to virtual reality. I believe that in the future, code will be written neither with "code" nor with "writing", so to speak. this is a blurb out of Xeroc Parc, the same organization that brought you the revolutionary wysiwyg GUI, the mouse, the file/folder analogy, etc. imagine that as a programmer, you could see an animated presentation of your code operation at all times. it would be an incredible development and debugging tool. it is quite a few years away, but I think it is inevitable. what is interesting is that visual programming is not necessarily a replacement for computer languages. it could be seen as just another layer of abstraction on top of source code, i.e. a means of generating source code, which could be in any language du-jour such as Java. in fact I think this is the way visual languages will first make their way into commercial environments-- by meshing with all the existing language baggage. ------- Forwarded Message Newsgroups: ba.seminars,comp.human-factors,comp.cog-eng,comp.groupware Subject: BayCHI (Aug 13) - Programming as a Video Game, plus Exploring the World of a Product Date: 6 Aug 1996 01:23:33 GMT Organization: Usability Adventures BayCHI, the San Francisco Bay Area ACM SIGCHI (Special Interest Group on Computer-Human Interaction), announces its August meeting: Tuesday, August 13, 1996 7:30 - 9:30 pm Programming as a Video Game or ToonTalk -- A Video Game for Creating Programs Ken Kahn, Animated Programs + Exploring the World of a Product: the Light Switch Exploration Project Sam Hecht, IDEO Product Development Xerox PARC Auditorium 3333 Coyote Hill Road Palo Alto, CA 94304 Abstract of "Programming as a Video Game or ToonTalk -- A Video Game for Creating Programs": Seymour Papert once described the design of the Logo programming language as taking the best ideas in computer science about programming language design and "child engineering" them. Twenty-five years after Logo's birth, there has been tremendous progress in programming language research and in computer-human interfaces. Programming languages exist now that are very expressive and mathematically very elegant and yet are difficult to learn and master. We believe the time is now ripe to attempt to repeat the success of the designers of Logo by child engineering one of these modern languages. When Logo was first built, a critical aspect was taking the computational constructs of the Lisp programming language and designing a child friendly syntax for them. Lisp's "CAR" was replaced by "FIRST", "DEFUN" by "TO", parentheses were eliminated, and so on. Today there are totally visual languages in which programs exist as pictures and not as text. We believe this is a step in the right direction, but even better than visual programs are animated programs. Animation is much better suited for dealing with the dynamics of computer programs than static icons or diagrams. While there has been substantial progress in graphical user interfaces in the last twenty-five years, we chose to look not primarily at the desktop metaphor for ideas but instead at video games. Video games are typically more direct, more concrete, and easier to learn than other software. And more fun too. We have constructed a general-purpose concurrent programming system, ToonTalk (TM), in which the source code is animated and the programming environment is a video game. Every abstract computational aspect is mapped into a concrete metaphor. For example, a computation is a city, an active object or agent is a house, birds carry messages between houses, a method or clause is a robot trained by the user and so on. The programmer controls a "programmer persona" in this video world to construct, run, debug and modify programs. We believe that ToonTalk is especially well suited for giving children the opportunity to build real programs in a manner that is easy to learn and fun to do. A live demo of ToonTalk will be given. (See http://www.toontalk.com.) ----- o ----- Abstract of "Exploring the World of a Product: the Light Switch Exploration Project": Initiated by IDEO industrial designers in San Francisco, the Light Switch exploration is the first in a series of projects which explore the world of a product. The benefits, other than those which are delivered within each design, is to expand each designer's mind, but formulated within a group. The group deliberately chose the humblest of product interfaces for exploration, asking that the test was in the using. It was felt strongly that this type of project would be able to indirectly inspire some of the more complex products that IDEO usually works with, and which the layman eventually has to operate. The approach taken was rooted heavily in both a large vocabulary of materials and the appraisal of a light switch within its environment. The group started the project by examining the history and context of a light switch and discovered that it was praticularly easy to move away from preconceptions which seem to have plagued many earlier attempts by designers. This was further achieved by the group developing contextual platforms for particular scenarios based on the relationships between object and light; control and light; the manipulation of light; and the interaction with a switch. The root in material also inspired totally new ways of both manufacturing and operating a light switch. It would be wrong to suggest that these designs are anything more than concepts, but because they were created within an environment that is populated by Human Factors, Engineering, and Interaction Design, they hold many of the concerns which are evoked by these professions. The group extended the concept of "using" by creating working prototypes. These were exhibited as part of the "Mutant Materials in Design" exhibition at the Museum of Modern Art in New York. Here, the public were able to interact with each switch in its proper context; that being to turn a light bulb on and off. New surprises were observed - such as people stroking a switch that only required the slightest of contact. What was happening, of course, was that relationships were being created between object and user. The exploration was awarded the 1995 annual design award for concepts and the CHI'96 video award for design, and was part of the International Design Yearbook for 1996. Biographies: ToonTalk was designed and built by KEN KAHN who, after earning a doctorate in computer science from MIT, spent more than 15 years as a researcher in programming languages, computer animation, and programming systems for children. He has been a faculty member at MIT, University of Stockholm, and Uppsala University. For over eight years he was a researcher at Xerox PARC. During the 1970s he made several animated films which were shown in film festivals, theaters, and cable TV. In 1992, Ken founded Animated Programs whose mission is to make computer programming child's play. His patent application covering the underlying technology of ToonTalk has recently been approved by the US Patent Office. David, Ken's 11 year-old son, will be running the demos during the talk. ----- o ----- SAM HECHT joined IDEO in 1994 after working in the areas of interior design, architecture, industrial design, and graphic design. He has worked in the studios of David Chipperfield in London, Studia design group in Tel-Aviv, IDEO product development in San Francisco, and now currently as a senior industrial designer at IDEO in Tokyo. In San Francisco, he created designs for large corporations in the fields of furniture for Steelcase America, computer monitors for NEC Japan, and recently telephones for AT&T of America. After graduating from the Royal College of Art in London, he started to investigate the border between object and environment, which he exercised in a number of interiors. This interest was furthered with the designs of the offices of IDEO in both San Francisco and Tokyo, which challenge our thinking of the office environment - layered with the philosophy of multi-disciplinary team working that IDEO employs. He is also responsible for curating the IDEO design explorations that occur each year. In Tokyo, he is currently focusing on the design of objects of a smaller scale. His work has won several awards; has been exhibited in Europe, America, and Asia; and has been published in leading journals throughout the world. ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ NOTES OF SPONSORSHIP & THANKS BayCHI thanks Jock MacKinlay and Stu Card of Xerox PARC for sponsoring our use of the Xerox PARC auditorium for BayCHI monthly meetings. ************************************************************************ BayCHI's September meeting: September 10 location: Xerox PARC Auditorium, Palo Alto ************************************************************************ About BayCHI BayCHI, the San Francisco Bay Area chapter of ACM's Special Interest Group on Computer-Human Interaction, brings together systems designers, human factors engineers, computer scientists, psychologists, social scientists, users, software engineers, product managers, ... from throughout the Bay Area to hear and to exchange ideas about computer-human interaction and about the design and evaluation of user interfaces. To join BayCHI, which will get you added to the mailing list for the newsletter, enable your access to the jobbank, enable your listing in the consultants directory, get you a copy of the directory of BayCHI members, ..., send a note to cstreeter.chi at xerox.com or to BayCHI, PO Box 25, Menlo Park, CA 94026, and we will send you a printed membership form. Membership forms are also available at the BayCHI meetings; plus, a membership form is appended to this announcement. Additional information about BayCHI is available at BayCHI's evolving World Wide Web site: http://www.baychi.org/. For program updates and to leave messages, call 408-235-9244. ************************************************************************ BayCHI Steering Committee The BayCHI steering committee meetings are open to anyone who is interested in attending. The meetings are generally held the first Tuesday of the month at 7:30 p.m. Please contact any member of the committee for directions to the meeting. Chair Bob Weissman weissman.chi at xerox.com Vice Chair Clark Streeter cstreeter.chi at xerox.com Treasurer Fred Jacobson jacobson.chi at xerox.com Program Chair Richard Anderson rianderson.chi at xerox.com Membership Chair Don Patterson patterson.chi at xerox.com Newsletter Editor Fred Jacobson jacobson.chi at xerox.com Dinner Coordinator Diane Cerra dcerra at mkp.com Webmistress Christina Gibbs cgibbs.chi at xerox.com Job Bank Mark Fernandes mark_fernandes.chi at xerox.com Publicity Chair Christina Gibbs cgibbs.chi at xerox.com Tutorial Chair David Rowley rowley.chi at xerox.com CHI Calendar Megan Eskey eskey.chi at xerox.com Consultants Directory Dave Salvator salvator.chi at xerox.com Strng Comm Mtg Host Ulrike Creach creach.chi at xerox.com Newsletter Distr. Joseph Jarosz jarosz.chi at xerox.com Volunteer Coordinator Clark Streeter cstreeter.chi at xerox.com Elections Chair (open position) SIGCHI Liaison Don Patterson patterson.chi at xerox.com International Liaison Susan Wolfe wolfe.chi at xerox.com BAHFES Liaison Robert Kaplan kaplan.chi at xerox.com Xerox PARC host Jock Mackinlay mackinlay.chi at xerox.com Past Chair ('95-'96) David Rowley rowley.chi at xerox.com Past Chair ('93-'95) Ellen Francik francik.chi at xerox.com Past Chair ('92-'93) Richard Anderson rianderson.chi at xerox.com At-large Allison Hansen ahansen.chi at xerox.com At-large Howard Tamler htamler.chi at xerox.com At-large Mike Van Riper vanriper.chi at xerox.com BayCHI -- P.O. Box 25 -- Menlo Park, CA -- 94026 ************************************************************************ DIRECTIONS TO XEROX PARC >From Highway 280, take the Page Mill Road exit. Go east one mile to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn right. Go 1/2 mile and PARC will be on your left. Follow the signs to the auditorium. >From 101, take the Oregon Expressway exit west 2 miles to El Camino Real. Oregon Expressway becomes Page Mill Road at El Camino Real. Follow Page Mill Road 1.7 miles to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn left. Coyote Hill Road is just past the intersection with Foothill Expressway. Go 1/2 mile and PARC will be on your left. Follow the signs to the auditorium. For a map, see http://www.parc.xerox.com/images/maptoparc.gif. ************************************************************************ O / \ O -----------X------------ Cut Here ------------X----------- O \ / O BayCHI Membership Form (Version: 8 February 1996) - ---------------------- Name: ________________________ ____________ _____________________________ (First) (MI) (Last) Nickname (optional): _________________________ (for Membership Card/Badge name if other than above) Preferred Email:_________________________________________________________ Secondary Email:_________________________________________________________ Web Address (URL):_______________________________________________________ Home Contact Information Address: ___________________________________________________________ ____________________, _______ __________________ ________ City State Postal / City Code Country Phone: (_____)____________________ FAX: (_____)___________________ Business Contact Information Company / Affiliation: _____________________________________________ Department: _____________________________________________ Address: ___________________________________________________________ ____________________, _______ __________________ ________ City State Postal / City Code Country Phone: (_____)____________________ FAX: (_____)___________________ Preferred Mailing Address (circle one): Home Business Email Only Newsletter delivery via (circle one): Email Surface Check if you DO NOT want to be included in the Membership Directory? ____ Check if you want to receive Job Bank postings: ____ Interests and Expertise (for Membership Directory listing - up to 90 char) Circle if member of: ACM SIGCHI ACM Member Number: _________________________________ Membership Fees: $15.00 for New Members $10.00 for Renewing Members Payment Enclosed : $_______ Date: __________ Payment by (circle one): Cash Personal Check Business Check Other Please mail this form, along with a check payable to BayCHI, to: Don Patterson, 757 Avalon Way, Livermore, CA 94550 ************************************************************************ ------- End of Forwarded Message From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 20:18:09 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:18:09 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 1-Aug-1996 Message-ID: <01I81HBZJJWK9JD3GI@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"educom at educom.unc.edu" 1-AUG-1996 17:11:49.07 To: IN%"edupage at elanor.oit.unc.edu" "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List" >***************************************************************** >Edupage, 1 August 1996. Edupage, a summary of news about information >technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, >a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities >seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. >***************************************************************** [...] >CELLULAR PHONE COMPANIES FIGHT CLONING >To fight the illegal practice called "cloning," cellular telephone carriers >will be adopting new "smart phone" technology intended to foil high-tech >criminals by matching calls with encoded passwords. In cloning, pirates >use portable scanners and computers to intercept the cellular phone user's >phone and serial numbers as they are being broadcast to a transmitting >tower or "cell site." The new digital phones will contain a non-clonable >''smart cards'' that encrypt the identifying information to prevent >scanners from eavesdropping or cloning the customer's telephone number. >(San Jose Mercury News 1 Aug 96) It sounds like the "smart cards" will have some chip oddities to try to prevent reading them - something in TCMay's department. I do wonder whether they're going to have one key for all of them, or differing keys for each user. If the former, then cracking one (which I get the impression is quite possible) equals cracking all, of course. >G7 LEADERS & THE INTERNET >Experts on electronic communications said ideas presented by G7 leaders for >fighting terrorism by restricting access to the Internet are "naive and >probably unworkable" because there are too many ways to circumvent >censorship on the Net to believe regulation could prevent terrorists from >using the technology for communications. (Toronto Globe & Mail 1 Aug 96 >A4) Yes... although it could be rather inconvenient. >CANADIAN SERVICE PROVIDERS TACKLE OBJECTIONABLE MATERIAL >Canadian access providers are developing guidelines for dealing with >potentially objectionable material and have set up a code of conduct >committee, with goals that include establishing guidelines members can use >to determine if information stored on their servers is illegal. (Toronto >Globe & Mail 1 Aug 96 B1) [...] >CERTIFIED WEB SITES >The National Computer Security Association in Carlisle, PA., will certify >that a Web site meets minimum security specifications, including the >presence of firewalls, use of passwords, and encryption of sensitive data >transmission. Certifications costs $8500 a year and requires that the site >submit to remote tests, an NCSA site visit, and random compliance audits. >(Computerworld 29 Jul 96 p2) One hopes that the level of encryption will be required to be above single DES, at least... >Edupage is written by John Gehl & Suzanne Douglas >. Voice: 404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057. >Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the >University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. >*************************************************************** >Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: >send mail to: listproc at educom.unc.edu with the message: subscribe edupage >Gene Fullmer (if your name is Gene Fullmer; otherwise, substitute your >own name). ... To cancel, send a message to: listproc at educom.unc.edu with >the message: unsubscribe edupage. (If you have subscription problems, >send mail to manager at educom.unc.edu.) From omega at bigeasy.com Thu Aug 8 20:18:57 1996 From: omega at bigeasy.com (Omegaman) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:18:57 +0800 Subject: PGP public key servers are NOT useful! Message-ID: <199608082044.PAA00861@betty.bigeasy.com> > What I want to prevent is some person I dislike uploading his > signature on my key Yes, that's unpreventable. It still does not change the fact that it is up to the person using your public key to determine if you are indeed that actual owner of that key. > How would you like it if I added a new ID to your key containing sort > of insult, certified that ID, and uploaded the new signature to the > key servers. RTFM. Look, go into PGP and try to change your key ID. You will note that PGP asks you to provide the passphrase to your secret key before allowing an id change. Someone could not get your public key off of a keyserver and change the id of the key. The need both your secret key and your passphrase to do that. Now someone could create a key-pair themselves and falsely assign your e-mail address and some miscellaneous crap as the ID. They could then upload the"rogue" public key portion of this keypair to the servers. However, the falsity of this "rogue" public key can be easily determined by you and anyone who is trying to communicate securely with you. All of this is explained with great clarity in the PGP documentation. Think about this... Suppose I knew who you were and knew your e-mail address. What's to stop me from creating a "rogue" key-pair with your address as the e-mail id and uploading it to the keyservers? Just because you don't utilize the keyservers, doesn't mean your public key can't be placed there. "Controlling" the distribution of your public key is giving you a false sense of security where none is really needed. Ponder: why is a public key called a "public" key? "Controlling" the distribution of you public key is a pointless exercise. Controlling authentication is what you and those who communicate securely with you whould be concerned about. me -------------------------------------------------------------- Omegaman PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 Send a message with the text "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key. -------------------------------------------------------------- From gary at systemics.com Thu Aug 8 20:20:36 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:20:36 +0800 Subject: appropriate algorithm for application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <320A29E7.13728473@systemics.com> Scott McGuire wrote: > > > Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: > > > > > > I need an algorithm/protocol that is capable of encrypting numerous > > > files with separate keys, but there also needs to be a master key > > > that will be able to decrypt all of them. Is there such a system > > > that is relatively secure? I'd prefer the system to be as secure > > > as possible, but in this application, security is secondary to > > > functionality. Thanks... //cerridwyn// > > > > Are you after a working program, or just a design? > > > > You could always use an escrowed public key generator (discussed on > > sci.crypt some time ago), where the keys all have a factor of 'N' > > embedded in 'N', but encrypted with the master key. > > > > (I'd be prepared to write the code that generates the keys, if > > someone does the "master decrypt" side of things). > > > > > > Why not just encrypt the files with regular, single key encryption and only use > the public-key encryption on a master file holding a copy of all the individual > keys? This would be faster right? The main reason is so that anyone can generate new keys as and when they please. The master key is not required for key generation, which makes it more secure (ie. it spends more of its time in the safe) and practical (the master key may be in a different building). Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From harka at nycmetro.com Thu Aug 8 20:22:50 1996 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:22:50 +0800 Subject: .mil links Message-ID: Somebody e-mailed me a nice collection of military/intelligence sites. I'll forward it to the list in case anybody is interested. (Note: I haven't checked the links myself yet) Harka == Forwarded Message Follows ========================================= MILITARY SCIENCES AND DEFENSE SITES: Advanced Information Technology Current research aimed at developing and implementing cutting edge hardware and software solutions for Navy problems. Also pointers to US Navy information, Washington DC Area Information and more. http://www.ait.nrl.navy.mil:80/home.html Advanced Research Projects Agency Provides selected information about the activities and programs of the Advanced Research Projects Agency(ARPA). http://ftp.arpa.mil/ Air Intelligence Agency This World Wide Web home page is your gateway to information about the U.S. Air Force's Air Intelligence Agency, a Field Operating Agency headquartered at Kelly Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. http://tecnet2.jcte.jcs.mil:8000/cybrspke/aialink.html Armament Research Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC), Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Access to staff directories, ARDEC information sources and remote non-technical information. http://www.pica.army.mil/ Army Research Laboratory Allow scientist from government, academia, and industry to discover information about current Army research. http://info.arl.army.mil/ Bosnia Link BosniaLINK, is the official Department of Defense information system about U.S. military activities in Operation JOINT ENDEAVOR, the NATO peace keeping mission in Bosnia. http://www.dtic.dla.mil/bosnia/ Brooks Air Force Base, Human Systems Center Brooks AFB organizations, information by topic and local interest, publications, weather and keyword searches are available. http://www.brooks.af.mil/ Central Intelligence Agency The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) supports the President, the National Security Council, and all who make and execute US national security policy. http://www.odci.gov/cia/ Defense Information Systems Agency Center for Standards Access to the DISA CFS Information Technology Standards Libary, Bulletin Board System and the Department of Defense Electronic Commerce/Electronic Data Interchange Standards Repository. http://www.itsi.disa.mil/ Defense Information Systems Agency Server The Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) mission is to Plan, Engineer, Develop, Test, Manage Programs, Acquire, Implement, Operate and Maintain Information Systems for C4I and Mission Support Under all conditions of Peace and War. http://www.disa.mil/ Defense Intelligence Agency The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) is a Combat Support Agency and the senior military intelligence component of the U.S. Intelligence Community. http://www.dia.mil/ Defense Logistics Service Center Provides logistics information products and services to all military and civilian government services and agencies. Server provides information on full range of DLSC products and services including LOGRUN, MEDALS, CAGE, FEDLOG, GIRDER, AMLS, Customer Service and FOI. http://www.dlsc.dla.mil/ Defense Research and Engineering Network Information about the Defense Research and Engineering Network(DREN), the networking component of the DoD High Performance Computing Modernization Program. http://www.arl.mil/HPCMP/DREN/index.html Defense Technical Information Center Provides access to and transfer of scientific and technical information for DoD personnel, DoD contractors and other US government agencies. http://www.dtic.mil/ DefenseLINK Access to DoD news releases, contract awards, briefing transcripts and related information. Postings are normally made within 20 minutes of official release. A search feature provides easy access to past releases. http://www.dtic.mil/defenselink/ Hydromechanics Directorate, Naval Surface Warfare Center Navy lab responsible for the research, development, testing, and evaluation of ships, submarines and other marine technologies. Contains information on facilities, projects and technical reports. http://www50.dt.navy.mil/ Intelligence Community Homepage The Intelligence Community is a group of 13 government agencies and organizations that carry out the intelligence activities of the United States government. http://www.odci.gov/ic/ National Defense University Information on professional military education. NDU is home to several colleges and institutions dedicated to military education, research, executive skills training, public policy information resource management, and more. Also contains a library. http://www.ndu.edu/ National Security Agency The National Security Agency (NSA) is responsible for the centralized coordination, direction, and performance of highly specialized technical functions in support of U.S. Government activities to protect U.S. information systems and produce foreign intelligence information. http://www.nsa.gov:8080/ Naval Command, Control and Ocean Surveillance Center (NCCOSC) Information about the three subordinate commands of NCCOSC as well as pointers to other naval resources. http://www.nosc.mil/ Naval Surface Warfare Center, Carderock Division Contains information pertaining to CALS in the Navy. All certified Navy DTDs and FOSIs are available on the Repository for downloading. http://navysgml.dt.navy.mil/ NavyOnLine Gateway to the Department of Navy online resources. Access to the Navy News Service, Naval Postgraduate School, Navy Public Affairs Library, Naval Research Laboratory, Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command and more. http://www.navy.mil/ Office of the Director of Information Systems for Command, Control, Communications and Computers (ODISC4) Provides up to date information on the ODSIC4 and the Army's Information Mission Area. http://www.army.mil/disc4-pg/disc4.htm Office of Naval Research The Office of Naval Research (ONR) coordinates, executes, and promotes the science and technology programs of the United States Navy and Marine Corps through universities, government laboratories, and nonprofit organizations. http://www.onr.navy.mil/ Office of Strategic Phenomena The mission of the Office of Strategic Phenomena is to develop and maintain the means by which certain phenomenology data is to be archived, distributed, analyzed and used by the community of designers, experimenters, scientists, and wargamers working in the areas such as ballistic missile defense or in synthetic environments for more comprehensive DoD simulations. http://vader.nrl.navy.mil/osp.html The Pentagon Access the headquarters of the Department of Defense and get general information and tour schedules for the Pentagon. http://www.dtic.mil/defenselink/pubs/pentagon/index.html Persian Gulf War Illness Home Page Visit GulfLINK, the information system of the Persian Gulf War Veterans Illnesses Task Force. This service provides to the public information concerning the illnesses affecting Persian Gulf War veterans. http://www.dtic.dla.mil/gulflink/ Space & Naval Warfare Systems Command Information about the resources at the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command. http://www.spawar.navy.mil/ U.S. Air Force The official web site of the U.S. Air Force. Contains news, fact sheets and photos of weapon systems, biographies and key leaders, the latest publications about the Air Force, and photos for current operations around the world. The site also lists more than 40 Air Force web sites around the world. http://www.dtic.mil/airforcelink/ U.S. Army Center of Military History The U.S. Army Center of Military History provides information on past Wars and Army history in general. http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/default.htm U.S. Army Homepage The Army Homepage is a central index for all U.S. Army Web sites. It is updated daily and has both Organizational and Subject lists. If you need to find a U.S. Army Homepage, you will find it here! http://www.army.mil/ U.S. Marines Corp Homepage The official World Wide Web information service of the United States Marine Corps. http://www.usmc.mil/ ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 8 20:54:32 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:54:32 +0800 Subject: Boom! Message-ID: At 10:43 PM 8/8/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >So, if it turns out that TWA 800 was an accidental wing tank explosion, will >they give us our civil liberties back? If not, why not? > You must be kidding. Civil rights (the real ones, not the affirmative action/antidiscrimination bullshit kind) only get constricted. The government only tightens the noose, it never loosens it. On a related note, it looks like Richard Jewell, the "Olympic Bomber," may not be charged and may even receive a page 37B "letter of clarification" from the Feds. No word on what the pack of 100 media vultures camped in his apartment's driveway will say. I suspect he will never live a normal life. Even if never charged, the splashing of private photos from his apartment--such as him cradling an AR-15 while dressed in camo--will stick in people's minds. What recourse does he have that camera crews were invited in on the searches? (*) (* In my local large city, San Jose, the cops used to invite the tabloid t.v. crews in on busts of suspected drug dealers. Kickbacks were probably involved. Anyway, the Fox network used to send camera crews in with the cops who kicked down doors, getting juicy coverage for "reality t.v." shows like "Cops." People in their underwear, people crying, people naked (Fox covered up the naughty bits digitally). After a privacy invasion lawsuit filed by one of the raided parties--I don't recall if they were ever found guilty or not, not that it matters--the cops stopped inviting the camera crews along. Judging by what I still see on t.v., other cities haven't stopped the practice. Surely a raid by cops, justified or not, does not give me, or you, or KCBS t.v. to tag along and enter a private home with our tape recorders and cameras rolling.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From sparks at bah.com Thu Aug 8 21:06:22 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:06:22 +0800 Subject: Fw: AOL crashes and burns Message-ID: <199608090131.VAA02178@pop1.jmb.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Thu Aug 08 21:28:04 1996 - -----Begin Included Message ----- I thought things were a bit faster there for a while.. They had just rolled out AOL 3.0 in time for Mac World ( county ??) when it burned.... Seems some new server software gagged it Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:16:38 -0500 From: Warrior To: cypherpunks at toad.com Cc: Great news, eh? - ---- End of forwarded message ---- Charles E. Sparks In God we trust, all others we encrypt ! http:/www.clark.net/pub/charley/index.htm Public Key At http://www.clark.net/pub/charley/cp_1.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMgqUJeJ+JZd/Y4yVAQGXpQQMC4HvZJDaHYOeSF/2nw4LEdSt6g+h5eZU NYo594LK9VTogbOLG/XgLol3aZ/GtQLyWs3gzbHFUwgByzZzjdDq+UEwbj4wV7jb XE3D1EJ5zCg3k7+Pbj4LKqag4VngD/0yd38bx7Okcvi3pfuwaPjIjNy/IStxZjV8 L6tHPzdlbwwa2g== =CG8R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 8 21:07:13 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:07:13 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, The Deviant wrote: > On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Mark C. Henderson wrote: > > I note that California requires some sort of documentation (birth > > cert, INS documentation etc.) for a new driver's licence. Don't know > > about other states. > > Hrmm... North Carolina requires 2 forms of ID, which can be an older > Driver's license, a SS card, a military ID, a birth certificate, or > (you'll love this one)... "A filled in job application"... It doesn't > even have to be signed by the company, or any of that shit. I can walk > over to RatShack, ask for an application, fill it out as "J. E. Hoover", > and its a valid form of ID at the DMV. You forgot "The Family Bible" at least that was in effect the last time I was in N.C. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 8 21:12:49 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:12:49 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? Message-ID: <199608090119.SAA20142@mail.pacifier.com> When supporting plans like GAK ("key escrow") and wiretaps, you will frequently see the Denning-types justify them by claiming that there's protection from a requirement that a judge issue a search warrant. It should be instructive, then, to present the Richard Jewell case as an excellent counter-example. Richard Jewell, as you should all be aware, is the poor soul who happened to first see that pipe bomb at the Atlanta Olympics. However, hours after it was publicly revealed that the Atlanta 911 center screwed up, wasting 10 minutes looking up the address of "Centennial park," officialdom suddenly discovered they needed news to divert attention from their buffoonery. They found it, as if on cue. Tonight, I saw a national network news show say how Jewell is apparently quite innocent, and that the news media was quite willingly "used" by the government to convict Jewell in the press. Great mea culpa, but that still leaves some serious questions. Presumably, the government got warrants to search Jewell's apartment, correct? Okay, what evidence did they use to support the granting of those warrants? What, EXACTLY, did they tell the judge that ostensibly convinced him to grant a warrant? Remember, police aren't supposed to get a warrant simply if they can't prove that a person is NOT a bomber. The standard is suppose to work the other way around: The police should get a warrant only if the amount of evidence of guilt (or, evidence of evidence) is sufficiently detailed to rise to a certain level of authority, known as "probable cause." Evidence doesn't evaporate. More precisely, the police had a responsibility to collect enough evidence together, POSITIVELY, to be able to show probable cause to believe that a crime had occurred, and that Jewell was guilty. Some of that evidence might, hypothetically, have initially appeared to show guilt and was later clarified, but that early evidence must still exist, to at least show the public that the cops didn't entirely fabricate the justifications they used to get the warrants. So I ask again, did the police/FBI EVER have enough evidence to convince anyone by that "probable cause" standard? Well, if they say they had it in the case of Richard Jewell, that isn't very reassuring. Okay, I'll admit that I _never_ believed that judges actually follow the standards they claim to. But many other people of those who are more establishmentarian than I (I guess that group includes just about everybody, huh?) at least pretend to believe this, or hope this, and maybe a few suckers actually do. It should be their responsibity, then, to show that the granting of a search warrant occurs only when justified. In Jewell's case, that was not the case. If we allow this fiasco to die without a full analysis, particularly in light of the government's repeated assurances with regards to search warrants, we will be as incompetent as the police were. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From pete at loshin.com Thu Aug 8 21:16:18 1996 From: pete at loshin.com (Pete Loshin) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:16:18 +0800 Subject: driver license info, loss of liberty, etc. Message-ID: <01BB8570.C231DE20@ploshin.tiac.net> The furor over the Oregon DMV database seems a bit misplaced: this type of information is considered to be in the public domain. You can buy it on tape/whatever for business purposes direct from the state. There are lots of people who I don't want to have any information about me who can get what's on file down at the Mass Registry of Motor Vehicles. That's the way it works. Now, there's lots of times when it would have been nice to have access to that information myself. Use your imagination. Why should the public be denied the right to access this information when businesses have had that privilege for some time? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to be taken away from businesses, either, though I suppose the states will now pass laws prohibiting the public dissemination of this data. BTW, has anyone heard about the Post Office now requiring that all airmail packages over 1 lb must now be posted in person (no mail drop boxes)? Someone told me this, and it sounds just stupid and pointless enough to be true. I won't have a chance to go to the PO until Monday, so I'd appreciate any updates. regards, -pl From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 8 21:23:00 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:23:00 +0800 Subject: "Thank you for not smoking" and other euphemisms Message-ID: [Not to pick on Alan, but I clipped out 8 (eight) separate cc: copies besides the main address! People, take a minute to trim the ever-accumulating cc: list. If someone is subscribed to CP, they don't need a separate copy. And so on.] At 1:11 AM 8/9/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >Nrth Carolina Jury instructions also mention that petite jurors are >"discouraged" from asking questions of the witness. I guess that means >they are not forbidden to do so. "Petite jurors" Is this a typo, or a special term of art in North Carolina? But your "discouraged" point is well-taken, an all too common. Other examples are: "Thank you for not smoking" (Suggesting they'll thank me if I don't smoke, but not actually forbid me from smoking. Of course, this euphemism means "Smoking forbidden.") "Donations suggested." This usually for leftist events, e.g., a speech by a Nicaraguan freedom fighter. Of course, what they really mean is "admission fee mandatory," but they call it a "suggested donation." I doubt one will be arrested for barging through the door without paying the "suggested donation," but this is a possibility, as they may deny admission. (And then there's the "sliding scale donation suggested," say, from $5 to $15. Presumably this is the embodiment of pure Marxist theory, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Be interesting to see their reaction if one declined to make any donation.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From rich at c2.org Thu Aug 8 21:24:16 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:24:16 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960808154452.00c70514@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I agree that this project needed to be done to educate the public, but I must say I'm glad my name isn't attached to it. To answer legitimate concerns about abuse, perhaps version 2 could make the relevant http logs publicly available? So in addition to checking the governor's son's driving record, you could check which other IP addresses have been looking at the governor's son's driving record. Spider detection and retaliation would also be nice. (Of course this would have the side effect of increasing the visibility of the anonymizer/canadianizer/exonizer services, which would not be a bad thing.) - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMgppM5NcNyVVy0jxAQFjFwIAyio1QMkAC7/sH3PdVbGXuTImey+1ewg2 Nxl7bZlZe/YvYlk2yomKW24bgZJ5Vjiecc7g35SM+jveLRWA0xgbkg== =yDFP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 8 21:37:07 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:37:07 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim, THe "must have a gun" was a political-art statement; a rhetorical device. I realize that you didn't recognize it as such, because there is never any inflammatory or posturing rhetoric on this list..... From djmortim at sprynet.com Thu Aug 8 21:39:11 1996 From: djmortim at sprynet.com (Doug Mortimer) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:39:11 +0800 Subject: subscribing Message-ID: <320A9782.2381@sprynet.com> Please add my name to your list. Thanks. D. Mortimer djmortim at sprynet.com From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Thu Aug 8 21:46:43 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:46:43 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports Message-ID: <01I81GQQLAL69JD3GI@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"declan at eff.org" "Declan McCullagh" 7-AUG-1996 10:15:54.28 >The Hatch simulated "child porn" bill was reported out of the Senate >judiciary committee favorably, with the addition of language making it a >felony to *attempt* to view child porn. This wording is aimed at the Net: > "Click Here to see Young Girls in Lust." One wonders if someone could dig up pictures taken by some senators or reps of their grandkids bathing in a pool... could be a nice publicity stunt. -Allen From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Thu Aug 8 21:48:28 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:48:28 +0800 Subject: Talking about Crypto Anarchy Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960809011710.002ed7ec@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 20:12 06/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >6. I've given up on discussing crypto anarchy in short talks because nearly >nobody in the audiences I've done it for has the foggiest notions of what >I'm talking about, and I've found no short, sweet, simple methods of >getting across the implications. .. >(I've also seen David Chaum struggle to just get the basic idea of >"credentials without identity" across to a tecnical audience...even when he >concentrates on only getting a single facet of his ideas across, the light >bulbs just don't go off in the heads of the audience members... I appreciate what you are saying, and I'm sure we all have felt this frustration at some time or another. I've had lots of people, particularly social scientists, aghast at the thought that I could have spent 4 years on a PhD trying to get a crane to reach its destination 2 seconds sooner -- after a while, you just get tired, and reach for your beer. However, policy that affects us is framed by people with little idea, and *someone* with a clue has to educate them (as well as, maybe, educate their constituents to bring the right kind of public pressure). Perhaps people like Tim, who seem to be tired of this, could further the cause best by "training the trainers." Which, I suppose, is what he is doing on this list... In closing, a short, simple story that's worth thinking about: When Buddha attained enlightenment, the gods asked him to go forth and spread his knowledge to the world. "Why should I?" he asked, "Those that know won't need it, those that need it won't listen." "Can you rule out," asked the gods, "that there might be people in between? Those that with your teaching might learn, who otherwise wouldn't?" Beware of binary thinking... Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 8 22:11:54 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:11:54 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608090231.TAA24652@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:50 AM 8/8/96 -0700, Rich Burroughs wrote: >On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >> Looks like we're a little late. However, we can still grab the tape from >> Oregon's DMV for $220. It would be an interesting excercise to try to get >> these tapes from each state with similar provisions and put them all >> online. > >This information has been available in Oregon for at least a couple of >years on CD. I've always been concerned about the privacy implications of >that service -- perhaps that's the upside of this story? That people do >give a rat's ass about their privacy? Actually, the lesson to be learned is that the news media is filled with a bunch of hypocrites. These people are supposed to be REPORTERS, for god's sake. Are they trying to tell us that they've never gone to the DMV and forked over $4 to find out the owner of a car? Can you say, "investigative reporting"? I think they're just carrying water for their friends who work for government. >I do think that the information should be able to be disseminated on the >Net as long as it's legal. While I think that the information should be disseminated on the net REGARDLESS of whether "it's legal" in any particular jurisdiction. Or, perhaps more accurately, I think that this information shouldn't be collected at all. Then it couldn't be abused. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From mpd at netcom.com Thu Aug 8 22:17:34 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:17:34 +0800 Subject: Going Postal (Was: Boom!) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960808224330.00834cbc@panix.com> Message-ID: <199608090050.RAA15679@netcom12.netcom.com> DCF writes: > So, if it turns out that TWA 800 was an accidental wing tank > explosion, will they give us our civil liberties back? If not, > why not? The Post Office has now jumped on the terrorist bandwagon by announcing that it will no longer be legal to drop any package weighing over 16 ounces into a collection box. Larger packages will have to be presented in person at the Post Office, and I wouldn't be surprised if several forms of ID were required. Should wreak havoc with the mail order video tape rental business, with those handy pre-paid 4th class labels you just slap on the tapes before dropping in the nearest mailbox. I suspect one could do a lot of damage to a mailbox with under 16 ounces of the proper explosive. Perhaps one of our resident Cypherpunks bomb experts could expand on this subject. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 8 22:23:59 1996 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:23:59 +0800 Subject: STEGO GUNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608090145.SAA05012@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, jonathon wrote: >On Wed, 7 Aug 1996 JonWienk at ix.netcom.com wrote: > >> In 1981, the city of Kennesaw, GA suffered 17 violent crimes and 55 >> burglaries. >> In 1982, Kennesaw passed an ordinance requiring all city residents to own a > > Said ordinance being passed, as a protest against Elk Grove, IL > passing an orinance, banning handguns. Anybody know when Elk > Grove revoked their ordinance? Crime went down for six months > there [ Elk Grove ] after the ban was passed, then it went up > --- far surpassing previous crime levels, for all types of > crime. First of all, you are talking about Morton Grove, not Elk Grove. Second of all, the ban was mostly ignored--the first year it was in effect, only 17 guns were turned in. The Morton Grove gun ban was not a statistically significant event. Jonathan Wienke "Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenarios, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government." --Henry Kissinger in an address to the Bilderberg organization meeting at Evian, France, May 21, 1992. Transcribed from a tape recording made by one of the Swiss delegates. "A conservative is a liberal who got mugged last night." --Lee Rodgers Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 8 22:41:12 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:41:12 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nrth Carolina Jury instructions also mention that petite jurors are "discouraged" from asking questions of the witness. I guess that means they are not forbidden to do so. From proff at suburbia.net Thu Aug 8 22:51:15 1996 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:51:15 +0800 Subject: ****CyberWatch Security With Face Recognition 08/07/96 In-Reply-To: <9608081407.AA01011@rpcp.mit.edu> Message-ID: <199608081731.DAA05628@suburbia.net> > > Some of the information that can be protected includes medical, > financial, criminal, or military records, officials said. The system > requires no training, is fast to use, and cannot be fooled by holding > up a photo of a person. > > This technology has been used in other situations, including the > securing of buildings or special areas, officials said. > > TrueFace CyberWatch is compatible with PC client/server standards and > can be used alone or with other security programs, officials said. > > The client runs on Windows 95 and Windows NT operating systems, and > costs $199. A bundle package, which includes a Connectix camera and > the software, is priced at $298. Both products will be shipping > within the next two months, officials said. Useless system for any high security application. May be good for low-security applications if you are dealing with people who are too stupid to use tokens. The reality is that people do not treat their faces like secret keys (depending on sex, religous beliefs and how many warts they may have). A regular photo may not fool the device, however one specifically developed for the purpose may, or if the device has some sort of depth perception, a hologram or modeled head - all of which can be obtained from publically availabe data - your face. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff at suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 8 22:57:23 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:57:23 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? Message-ID: At 5:35 PM 8/8/96, talon57 at well.com wrote: >Jonathon wrote: > >>Said ordinance being passed, as a protest against Elk Grove, IL >>passing an orinance, banning handguns. Anybody know when Elk >>Grove revoked their ordinance? Crime went down for six months >>there [ Elk Grove ] after the ban was passed, then it went up >>far surpassing previous crime levels, for all types of crime. > >Pardon me Jonathon, but I believe you are confusing Morton Grove >with Elk Grove. I do not have the statistics for the crime rates >there, but several friends who have moved from there insist the >crime rate has continued upwards as you mentioned. Also there are >a couple of other interesting facts. Regarding that town nearby that passed a _requirement_ that all households have a gun: "Ma'm, I'm Deputy Uptite, of the Dork's Grove Sheriff's Department. I'm here to check on reports that you haven't obtained a gun, as required by law. Could I come in and take a look around?" "But I don't like guns, and I don't want one in my house." "I'm sorry, ma'm, but it's the law. According to the People's Self-Protection Act of 1997, you _must_ have a gun. Now what I'm going to do is give you a break. Think of this as a "fix-it ticket." Take this down to my cousin's gun store, right off of Main and 10th, and he'll get you set up with a Glock 23 or maybe a nice little Beretta. Shouldn't cost you more than $400, and it'll save you a 6-month stretch at the work farm. Have a nice day. Oh, and be sure to spend at least an hour at the week at the range...that's part of the law, too." --- Pro-gun fascism is just as bad a anti-gun fascism. I do recall that the "you must have a gun" town had some exemptions for folks opposed to guns, blah blah, but it still is intensely revolting to me that any town could ever pass such a law. Much as I think being armed is useful and all that, allowing such a law to go unchallenged feeds into the same approach that tries to ban guns...if guns can be required, they can be banned. What part of the Second Amendment did they not understand? (Legal quibblers will perhaps say the Second applies to _Congress_ (as in "Congress shall make no law"), and not to states and communities. I disagree. Can a town restrict free speech just because it is not the Congress?) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From junger at pdj2-ra.F-REMOTE.CWRU.Edu Thu Aug 8 22:59:32 1996 From: junger at pdj2-ra.F-REMOTE.CWRU.Edu (Peter D. Junger) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:59:32 +0800 Subject: Suit filed to enjoin crypto provisions of the ITAR Message-ID: <199608081921.PAA30963@pdj2-ra.F-REMOTE.CWRU.Edu> [I have cross-posted this press release by my lawyers to several mailing-lists. I am subscribed to all of them and I believe that this information is relevant to all of them, but I apologize because you may receive several copies.] -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH Internet: junger at pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu junger at samsara.law.cwru.edu URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu ------------------------Press Release--------------------------------- Law Professor Sues Federal Government Over Computer Privacy Issues Federal Civil Rights Action Seeks Injunction Against State Department And National Security Agency Cleveland Scholar Attacks Prohibition On Discussing Cryptographic Software With Foreign Students And Colleagues For Immediate Release Cleveland, Wednesday, August 7, 1996 For More Information Contact: Raymond Vasvari (216) 522-1925 Gino Scarselli (216) 291-8601 More Information Will Be Available at: URL: //http:/samsara.law.cwru.edu A Case Western Reserve University law professor filed suit today in federal court, challenging government regulations which restrict his ability to teach a course in computer law. Peter Junger, a twenty-five year veteran of the law school faculty, will file a federal civil rights action this afternoon in the United States District Court in Cleveland. The suit names the Department of State and the secretive National Security Agency, which administer federal regulations limiting Professor Junger's ability to teach. The case involves the International Traffic in Arms Regulations, or ITAR, federal regulations which restrict the export of military technology. Under the ITAR, cryptographic computer software, which encodes text to preserve the privacy of messages on the Internet, is considered a "munition" and subject to strict export control. The regulations raise significant First Amendment questions by defining "export" to include discussing technical information about non-classified software with foreign nationals, such as students registered for Professor Junger's course. In recent months, the State Department has sent a series of letters threatening possible criminal action to a Florida man who posted a simple cryptographic algorithm to the "sci.crypt" Usenet Newsgroup, an Internet site popular with cryptography enthusiasts. These and similar incidents have caused Professor Junger to limit his discussions of cryptographic material with foreign colleagues, for fear of violating the ITAR. Penalties for unlicenced disclosure of cryptographic information are severe: federal law provides ten year prison terms and One Million Dollar fines for those convicted of violating the Arms Export Control Act, the legislation under which the ITAR was promulgated. Professor Junger, whose class at Case Western Reserve focuses on the legal aspects of computer use and software development, plans to turn away any foreign students who register for the course this fall, largely because the law is uncertain as to what he may teach, and to whom. The restrictions at issue are administered by the Department of State, in cooperation with the ultra-secret National Security Agency, the organization charged with eavesdropping on foreign governments. Under the ITAR, Junger may not teach foreign students about even simple software capable of encoding messages. Such software is vital to maintaining the privacy of communications and financial transactions on the Internet, and Junger believes that lawyers need to understand how it works in order to prepare to practice in an increasingly technological world. The information that Junger wishes to disclose is widely available on the Internet and elsewhere. "It's not as though we are talking about classified information," explained Gino Scarselli, one of three lawyers representing Junger in the case. "The material at issue in this case can be found in any university library, but the regulations make no exceptions for even the most basic software," Scarselli noted. The lawsuit does not challenge the government's right to restrict access to classified information. Junger is also represented by Raymond Vasvari and Kevin Francis O'Neill, two Cleveland attorneys with considerable experience in First Amendment issues. As Vasvari explained, the suit presents important First Amendment questions about the government's ability to regulate academic life. "These regulations allow the government to dictate what a professor may and may not teach, even though the material involved poses no threat to national security," Vasvari explained. The suit charges that by requiring Junger to apply for a federal license to discuss cryptography with foreigners, the government is violating a well-established First Amendment rule which prohibits the government from imposing prior restraints on expression without clear, narrowly drawn standards distinguishing prohibited expression from permissible speech. The United States Supreme Court has consistently held that such prior restraints face a heavy burden in court, and that standardless licencing schemes allowing officials broad discretion in restriction speech are unconstitutional. Because computer cryptography is expected to play an important role in the economic development of the Internet, the case is being closely watched. Scarselli has worked closely with attorneys affiliated with the San Francisco based Electronic Frontier Foundation in preparing the suit, and Junger and his lawyers have been in frequent contact with John Gilmore, formerly of Sun Microsystems, who has offered his assistance as a technical advisor in the case. At issue is not only Junger's right to discuss cryptography with foreigners, but also his and other's right to publish and distribute such information both in traditional forms and on the internet. Professor Junger's suit seeks declaratory and injunctive relief, prohibiting the government from interfering with his, or any other person's, discussing non-classified cryptographic information with foreign persons or from publishing that information. Lawyers for Junger have moved the court for a preliminary injunction. Junger's course begins in the fall semester, later this month. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 8 23:01:32 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:01:32 +0800 Subject: For what it's worth... Message-ID: From: Erltsung Schang Subject: Could anyone feed me news? Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 20:49:10 +0800 Organization: Network Center of Zhongshan University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3209E246.DE3 at zsu.edu.cn> Reply-To: etschang at zsu.edu.cn NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.96.129.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5aGold (Win95; I) Hi, Could anyone help me to feed me news? Thank you very much! Erltsung Schang Network Center of Zhongshan University 135, West Xin-gang Road Guangzhou, GD 510275 China Phone: 86-20-84184905 Fax: 86-20-84193772 E-mail: etschang at zsu.edu.cn From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Aug 8 23:01:46 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:01:46 +0800 Subject: visual programming In-Reply-To: <199608081912.MAA29522@netcom14.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608090337.WAA15456@manifold.algebra.com> Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > > imagine that as a programmer, you could see an animated presentation > of your code operation at all times. it would be an incredible > development and debugging tool. it is quite a few years away, but > I think it is inevitable. > I can see it in my brain anyway. Would not pay a $1 for such system. igor From jeremey at forequest.com Thu Aug 8 23:08:01 1996 From: jeremey at forequest.com (Jeremey Barrett) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:08:01 +0800 Subject: An SSL implementation weakness? In-Reply-To: <83952437618205@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote: > The following weakness seems very obvious, I've got a partial writeup of this > but before I turn it into a paper or something and arrange a demonstration of > how it would work I thought I'd check to make sure (a) someone else hasn't > mentioned it before, and (b) it is actually possible (it seems too simple to > be true): > > 1. Using DNS spoofing, stage a hostile takeover of an address (for example > using bogus referrals set yourself up as the delegated server for a DNS > subtree). > 2. Get a Verisign certificate for an arbitrary company and set up a bogus site > at the stolen address. > > Lets say you steal www.megafoobarcorp.com. People connect to this site (which > is actually your bogus site), Netscape (for example) displays the blue line > and non-broken key (which is actually for your J.Random certificate rather > than the real megafoobarcorp one) to show the connection is secure, and you've > just subverted their site. The domain in the server's certificate will not match the domain on the url, i.e. the certificate will say www.eve.com and the url will be www.megafoobarcorp.com. Netscape does and should complain about this, and that particular warning cannot be turned off. Now it is quite possible that the user will ignore the warning or not fully understand it, and proceed, but if the user pays attention to those sort of warnings, the switch will be detected. Now maybe if you got a certificate for a very similar domain name, the user might be more likely to ignore the warning. - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeremey Barrett Senior Software Engineer jeremey at forequest.com The ForeQuest Company http://www.forequest.com/ "less is more." -- Mies van de Rohe. Ken Thompson has an automobile which he helped design. Unlike most automobiles, it has neither speedometer, nor gas gage, nor any of the numerous idiot lights which plague the modern driver. Rather, if the driver makes any mistake, a giant "?" lights up in the center of the dashboard. "The experienced driver", he says, "will usually know what's wrong." -- 'fortune` output -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgpmWy/fy+vkqMxNAQEZfQP8C69iVqCdXBudh8N2UIlLVew65Yi8lkad Wjnsur/vsFbsGQZBOvh5IBshJkLBYPZPL2Q92Zi14Xcir8/Ld18N8kFShQ97id5l npXMcY7ncFnfeohdwhIJdDgzaNYK9i/eVeb90JVPh/cV89xw9BnXv4h/7xW3ul+j xp/m1oyRZ/w= =Tsus -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From talon57 at well.com Thu Aug 8 23:08:41 1996 From: talon57 at well.com (talon57 at well.com) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:08:41 +0800 Subject: STEGO GUNS Message-ID: <199608081735.KAA03397@well.com> Jonathon wrote: >Said ordinance being passed, as a protest against Elk Grove, IL >passing an orinance, banning handguns. Anybody know when Elk >Grove revoked their ordinance? Crime went down for six months >there [ Elk Grove ] after the ban was passed, then it went up >far surpassing previous crime levels, for all types of crime. Pardon me Jonathon, but I believe you are confusing Morton Grove with Elk Grove. I do not have the statistics for the crime rates there, but several friends who have moved from there insist the crime rate has continued upwards as you mentioned. Also there are a couple of other interesting facts. 1) The city council exempted themselves from the handgun ban. 2) The wife of the Mayor reportedly purchased a handgun the day after the law was enacted. Brian From geeman at best.com Thu Aug 8 23:36:50 1996 From: geeman at best.com (i am not a number!) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:36:50 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. Message-ID: <320AC4B5.1E3@best.com> CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake retrofit blah blah. How? Their license plates have been photographed. ... and the cheery "news" anchorwoman sweetly moved on to the next story..... From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Thu Aug 8 23:40:21 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:40:21 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960809024936.00c79f48@vertexgroup.com> At 05:32 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, John F. Fricker wrote: > >> ObCypherpunks: How many people do you know that are working on a day to day >> basis with medical records systems, the District Attorney's computers, your >> doctor's computers, state Department of Health, and so on. I'm sure it's >> come up before but isn't this an obvious of application of encryption and >> PAK (Public Access to Keys)? Any legislation currently to _require_ that >> medical records and such be encrypted with access restricted. > >"Require"? > >Wouldn't do shit. It's a social problem more than a technological problem. > Isn't that the role of legislation? To implement solutions that society would not do on it's own? The enabling technology is obviously off the self. I think you may have misinterpretted my last sentence which was supposed to have had a ? at the end. Where's the proof reader when you need one! --j From chrislee at sunspot.tiac.net Thu Aug 8 23:40:28 1996 From: chrislee at sunspot.tiac.net (Chris Lee) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:40:28 +0800 Subject: PGP/Unix scripts, mail proggies? Message-ID: Hello all, I joined this list a while ago and am curious whether a there is a simple way to encrypt/decrypt e-mail with PGP in a Linux(Unix) enviroment...? Sorry if this has been answered a thousand times, but it would really make PGP a more viable option with my small ISP. Thank you very much for any answers, please reply to me personally. Chris Lee PS Please don't suggest any Windows programs, excluding X-Windows of course. :) =============================================================== | chrislee at sunspot.tiac.net | Finger for PGP Public Key | | "What color is a chameleon on a mirror?" -BSD | | WWW Page: http://www.tiac.net/users/chrislee | =============================================================== From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 8 23:51:00 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:51:00 +0800 Subject: driver license info, loss of liberty, etc. Message-ID: <199608090359.UAA29690@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:29 PM 8/8/96 -0400, Pete Loshin wrote: >The furor over the Oregon DMV database seems a bit misplaced: this type of >information is considered to be in the public domain. You can buy it on >tape/whatever for business purposes direct from the state. Actually, in Oregon I don't think there is any restriction as to what purposes you ask for the information. I've never filled out such a request before (preferring to get my data from a CDROM which tells no tales...) but as I understand it there's no restriction. (Other than legality?!?) > There are lots >of people who I don't want to have any information about me who can get >what's on file down at the Mass Registry of Motor Vehicles. That's the way >it works. > >Now, there's lots of times when it would have been nice to have access to >that information myself. Use your imagination. Why should the public be >denied the right to access this information when businesses have had that >privilege for some time? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to be >taken away from businesses, either, though I suppose the states will now >pass laws prohibiting the public dissemination of this data. I've pointed out elsewhere that our goal should be the elimination of the collection of this data by the state in the first place, an appropriately radical idea. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Aug 8 23:56:40 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:56:40 +0800 Subject: Basic Unix Hacking In-Reply-To: <199608082320.QAA17952@scv2.apple.com> Message-ID: <199608090225.VAA10861@manifold.algebra.com> CTH wrote: > Is there a way to get a .plan file to execute shell script when > it is read by finger?? > > I'm sure this is an old question, but it seems there must > be a way. > > echo \"date\" or some damn thing that will execute as opposed > to printing. use a named pipe for your plan: $ cd $HOME $ /bin/mv -f .plan .plan.old $ mknod .plan p $ (date > .plan) & $ finger `whoami`@0 or use "masterplan" program available from the net. But IMHO, all this activity is a WASTE of time. From deviant at pooh-corner.com Fri Aug 9 00:00:28 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:00:28 +0800 Subject: Internal Passports In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, snow wrote: > Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:18:07 -0500 (CDT) > From: snow > To: The Deviant > Cc: "Mark C. Henderson" , > Bill Stewart , > "Timothy C. May" , cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Internal Passports > > On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, The Deviant wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Mark C. Henderson wrote: > > > I note that California requires some sort of documentation (birth > > > cert, INS documentation etc.) for a new driver's licence. Don't know > > > about other states. > > > > Hrmm... North Carolina requires 2 forms of ID, which can be an older > > Driver's license, a SS card, a military ID, a birth certificate, or > > (you'll love this one)... "A filled in job application"... It doesn't > > even have to be signed by the company, or any of that shit. I can walk > > over to RatShack, ask for an application, fill it out as "J. E. Hoover", > > and its a valid form of ID at the DMV. > > You forgot "The Family Bible" at least that was in effect the last > time I was in N.C. > Ah.. yes.. I knew I was forgetting (repressing?) that I live in "The Bible Belt"... What having a minister as a parent, its an easy thing to try and repress... --Deviant No one can guarantee the actions of another. -- Spock, "Day of the Dove", stardate unknown -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgq7PDAJap8fyDMVAQH9Wgf/UA41BvrNvNY2kEihtGm7XCgAtblb+6vv i0CGAB83r0idDy+JVfAOOh//MflQLRImVO1LzGXCmpWZpcuWjQuW99T/cgDqkmi0 sER+kpZ779Yw3+Jn1vIxQevgeKMOBeJ5MmG27kbqSnBaD+kd3e/nFhbfjVM4KWdG X0KByRNbKZJGGxkg5FYguaRr0DHlbqFXQCJY0LWPhL5+1gi41jSCNvXr0PL4h5FG dwv2QO9wQ3UYGKLlb48EhC5WKkQa2qYx3qP8sHJewXxcVtAjyAzvmW87Y9fGwuwA EjleCqGJBxMa4UckiRSRxxjZBN2gWP1szVzWSLMkioBVZgtd4xi9fw== =7QMw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From grafolog at netcom.com Fri Aug 9 00:03:21 1996 From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:03:21 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > >Pardon me Jonathon, but I believe you are confusing Morton Grove > >with Elk Grove. I do not have the statistics for the crime rates Mea culpa. Morton Grove is right. > Regarding that town nearby that passed a _requirement_ that all households > have a gun: In the case of Kennesaw, if you had a personal objection to having a handgun -- or any other weapon --- in your home, you were automatically exempt. If federal, or state law prohibited you from owning a weapon, you were also exempt. Also note that the official city policy was to not enforce that specific law. It was a purely symbolic thing, which did have some interesting side-effects. xan jonathon grafolog at netcom.com VapourWare is like the Tao, Looked for it cannot be found, Reached for it cannot be touched, Waited for not even FedX can deliver; From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Fri Aug 9 00:03:25 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:03:25 +0800 Subject: Cybergangs? Message-ID: <01I81T5ESZKS9JD3MN@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"educom at educom.unc.edu" 8-AUG-1996 22:27:27.58 To: IN%"edupage at elanor.oit.unc.edu" "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List" >***************************************************************** >Edupage, 8 August 1996. Edupage, a summary of news about information >technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, >a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities >seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. >***************************************************************** >CYBERGANGS >The head of the gang task force for the Arizona Department of Public Safety >reports that a Web site established in Detroit offers a how-to guide for >gangster wannabes and is urging gang members everywhere to unite under its >umbrella to form the first cyberspace gang. The official says: "Now it's >in your home, your living room, your den... Unfortunately, these guys can >talk about anything they want and there's nothing law enforcement can do >about it." (Atlanta Journal-Constitution 8 Aug 96 F3) Umm... yes, it's called free speech. While organizational ability might be a matter for concern, somehow I doubt that having them on the net will do any real damage... being on a computer that mine is connected to hardly puts them "in [my] home," even if my computer at home were connected to a phone line. Bloody law enforcement paranoids... -Allen >Edupage is written by John Gehl & Suzanne Douglas >. Voice: 404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057. >Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the >University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. >*************************************************************** >Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: >send mail to: listproc at educom.unc.edu with the message: subscribe edupage >Abraham Lincoln (if your name is Abraham Lincoln; otherwise, substitute >your own name). ... To cancel, send a message to: listproc at educom.unc.edu >with the message: unsubscribe edupage. (If you have subscription problems, >send mail to manager at educom.unc.edu.) From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 9 00:05:50 1996 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:05:50 +0800 Subject: Thank you. In-Reply-To: <199608081616.SAA01670@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <4ue24a$2ov@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <199608081616.SAA01670 at basement.replay.com>, Anonymous wrote: >I forgot the name of the person who wrote the patches >to the Linux kernel for stego. > >They work perfectly, and I had no problems setting it up. > >Many thanks. > No problem. I urge you to push (on linux-kernel at vger.rutgers.edu and/or comp.os.linux.development.system) for its inclusion in the standard kernel before 2.1 comes out. Stego isn't that useful a feature, if the very fact of having a modified kernel that supports it, is incriminating... - Ian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgqLhkZRiTErSPb1AQFtaQP/c63xDJDKJ6T3FmgmswdPDX/Sw2zTiGdS WiZyFvZmj2o1TgAcJI+TisvBD6DPatJWD6xdCnmJD04fvCB1UsYsJsVuNJv1WSCi epgJ0o/FO0jM8ESj/z60XcllCQtHR7n1kQti9PFjZB2jpOTRRsERD6owwEnsNtIf up0R5wTmxdQ= =yxMM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 9 00:12:28 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:12:28 +0800 Subject: Boom! Message-ID: <199608090359.UAA29693@mail.pacifier.com> At 05:58 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 10:43 PM 8/8/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >>So, if it turns out that TWA 800 was an accidental wing tank explosion, will >>they give us our civil liberties back? If not, why not? >> > >You must be kidding. Civil rights (the real ones, not the affirmative >action/antidiscrimination bullshit kind) only get constricted. > >The government only tightens the noose, it never loosens it. I've got a...oh, never mind. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 9 00:13:16 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:13:16 +0800 Subject: Going Postal (Was: Boom!) Message-ID: At 12:50 AM 8/9/96, Mike Duvos wrote: > >The Post Office has now jumped on the terrorist bandwagon by >announcing that it will no longer be legal to drop any package >weighing over 16 ounces into a collection box. Actually, CNN was reporting that this is for _airmail_ only. Which makes a certain kind of sense, given the situation with bomb technology. >Larger packages will have to be presented in person at the >Post Office, and I wouldn't be surprised if several forms of >ID were required. The usual alternatives of UPS (cheaper) and FedEx (not so cheap) should still be viable. This could actually boost their business. I just had some Evil Smokeless Powder delivered to me via UPS. (The Post Office people will not handle this stuff...it either violates their union contracts or management is afraid the employees will use it to go postal with.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From frissell at panix.com Fri Aug 9 00:13:38 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:13:38 +0800 Subject: Boom! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960808224330.00834cbc@panix.com> So, if it turns out that TWA 800 was an accidental wing tank explosion, will they give us our civil liberties back? If not, why not? DCF "'It Takes a Village to Raise a Child' -- an unemployed hausfrau living in public housing in Washington, D.C." From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 9 00:14:50 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:14:50 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > Regarding that town nearby that passed a _requirement_ that all > households have a gun: > ... > Pro-gun fascism is just as bad a anti-gun fascism. > > I do recall that the "you must have a gun" town had some > exemptions for folks opposed to guns, blah blah, but it still > is intensely revolting to me that any town could ever pass > such a law... I can't find the exact quote, but Will Rogers quipped that every time Congress made a law, it was a joke. And every time Congress made a joke it was a law. The town near Morton Grove was not making a real requirement that every household have a gun, they were just making a joke at Morton Grove's expense. In addition to the "exceptions," there was no penalty for violation of the law, thus making sure it was unenforceable. It was not a case of "pro-gun fascism" but of rough American political humor. At the very least it kept the city council out of more serious mischief. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 9 00:19:46 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:19:46 +0800 Subject: Going Postal (Was: Boom!) Message-ID: At 17:50 8/8/96, Mike Duvos wrote: >The Post Office has now jumped on the terrorist bandwagon by >announcing that it will no longer be legal to drop any package >weighing over 16 ounces into a collection box. > >Larger packages will have to be presented in person at the >Post Office, and I wouldn't be surprised if several forms of >ID were required. We'll see the day. >Should wreak havoc with the mail order video tape rental business, >with those handy pre-paid 4th class labels you just slap on the >tapes before dropping in the nearest mailbox. A video tape weighs less than a pound. >I suspect one could do a lot of damage to a mailbox with under 16 >ounces of the proper explosive. Perhaps one of our resident >Cypherpunks bomb experts could expand on this subject. Sixteen ounces of C4 will do you right. It was only 12 ounces that brought down the Pan Am flight over Scotland. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From deviant at pooh-corner.com Fri Aug 9 00:19:46 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:19:46 +0800 Subject: An SSL implementation weakness? In-Reply-To: <83952437618205@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote: > Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:12:56 (NZST) > From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: An SSL implementation weakness? > > The following weakness seems very obvious, I've got a partial writeup of this > but before I turn it into a paper or something and arrange a demonstration of > how it would work I thought I'd check to make sure (a) someone else hasn't > mentioned it before, and (b) it is actually possible (it seems too simple to > be true): > > 1. Using DNS spoofing, stage a hostile takeover of an address (for example > using bogus referrals set yourself up as the delegated server for a DNS > subtree). > 2. Get a Verisign certificate for an arbitrary company and set up a bogus site > at the stolen address. > > Lets say you steal www.megafoobarcorp.com. People connect to this site (which > is actually your bogus site), Netscape (for example) displays the blue line > and non-broken key (which is actually for your J.Random certificate rather > than the real megafoobarcorp one) to show the connection is secure, and you've > just subverted their site. > > The problem is that unless the user on the client side checks their > certificates (which noone does), all they're told is "A secure link is > established", not who the secure link is established to. Even if browsers did > pop up a dialog to tell them who the secured connection was to, after about > the third time people would click on the "Never show this incredibly annoying > dialog again" option and never look at it again. > > This effectively reduces an attack on an SSL-enabled server to an attack on > the DNS. Is this as simple as it seems, and is it worth doing a writeup on? > > Peter. > This certainly _looks_ like a viable hack on SSL... of course, the other option is just hack Root on the _real_ server, and steal their certificate (harder than I make it sound, but usually not to complicated, assuming you can spoof IP and DNS, etc...) --Deviant "Evil does seek to maintain power by suppressing the truth." "Or by misleading the innocent." -- Spock and McCoy, "And The Children Shall Lead", stardate 5029.5. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgrEWzAJap8fyDMVAQFhUwf9EanUPzCVnp1rawVKucnuG78GvwpRNZzA Pu1LXIpfiCZeIsDOsLUMEHoyhukYuxnO8sZOS4CJdifU7ibdyofhxyBrxB+xOmny 2bnqSmOKl7qFocFFIEPUj7byThp22X4ynGuqgv4iBLuL7h2gaOuF7iz1mxacU0AJ 7QDsyiUJV/0mCOZeO+KEre/TLnsWOqbL5GGnsjM6JZ12LsqFUmXwQySWOkywbisq OFt6jxo2JlfLDm5+XXyN5VTnTEsub4q/qaTf2bu9FLUfSic73YzusMyK9mmZ7nwu 0XEeV7zooQ16tCwD9XS2eoVHmqmUzrxiypZcrSmf9MvCwzFgVGxyYQ== =Ckhu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 9 00:22:07 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:22:07 +0800 Subject: Going Postal (Was: Boom!) Message-ID: At 19:22 8/8/96, Timothy C. May wrote: >I just had some Evil Smokeless Powder delivered to me via UPS. (The Post >Office people will not handle this stuff...it either violates their union >contracts or management is afraid the employees will use it to go postal >with.) A while back, I ordered some "I love Explosives" bumper stickers from an explosives dealer in New Mexico. They also ship black powder via UPS to anyone. Twenty pounds maximum. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Fri Aug 9 00:24:33 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:24:33 +0800 Subject: Boom! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > On a related note, it looks like Richard Jewell, the "Olympic Bomber," may > not be charged and may even receive a page 37B "letter of clarification" > from the Feds. No word on what the pack of 100 media vultures camped in his > apartment's driveway will say. > > I suspect he will never live a normal life. Even if never charged, the > splashing of private photos from his apartment--such as him cradling an > AR-15 while dressed in camo--will stick in people's minds. What recourse > does he have that camera crews were invited in on the searches? (*) None. He'll be forced to spend his life touring the talk show circuit, promoting the made-for-TV movie. If they'll make four different "Amy Fisher" movies at four different networks, they'll make at least one on this. From lspeidel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 9 01:03:35 1996 From: lspeidel at earthlink.net (Michael Cortes) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:03:35 +0800 Subject: anarchy cookbook??? Message-ID: <320A86F3.22BC@earthlink.net> cypherpunks Ok this is what happend.I was looking around on the www. And came across the jolly roger "anarchy cookbook" and i was wondering.Any one know what happend to jolly roger? -Zac ps: Oh and sorry for like all fucken up on my last letter heh From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 9 01:13:24 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:13:24 +0800 Subject: anarchy cookbook??? In-Reply-To: <320A86F3.22BC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Michael Cortes wrote: > cypherpunks > > Ok this is what happend.I was looking around on the www. And came across > the jolly roger "anarchy cookbook" and i was wondering.Any one know what > happend to jolly roger? He blew himself up cooking napalm according to his directions. -rich From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Aug 9 01:15:58 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:15:58 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608090451.VAA01180@dns1.noc.best.net> At 12:25 AM 8/8/96 -0700, Alan wrote: > It will be interesting to see the state come out on the side of all those > anonymous drivers. The state wants people to be anonymous from each other, but not anonymous from the state. This ensures that we are dependent on the state for the maintenance of civilized behavior. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 9 01:16:11 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:16:11 +0800 Subject: "Thank you for not smoking" and other euphemisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: > "Petite jurors" Is this a typo, or a special term of art in North Carolina? This is the official name for "regular" juries, as opposed to the grand jury. > (And then there's the "sliding scale donation suggested," say, from $5 to > $15. Presumably this is the embodiment of pure Marxist theory, "from each > according to his ability, to each according to his need." Be interesting to > see their reaction if one declined to make any donation.) Well - some time ago I came to a C++ users group meeting and had only $2 on me. The guy at the door said rather sternly: "the suggested donation is three dollars". I said, sorry, I only got two, and just walked by. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 9 01:22:30 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:22:30 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. Message-ID: At 4:55 AM 8/9/96, i am not a number! wrote: >CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central >f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake >retrofit blah blah. > >How? Their license plates have been photographed. >... and the cheery "news" anchorwoman sweetly moved on to the next ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >story..... Don't expect anchorbimbos to have a thought about anything. (*) Though it might have given her more pause if the story was about how 80,000 women in California are being mailed special information on birth control options because their license plates were photographed in Planned Parenthood parking lots.... It really ought to be illegal for any level of government to monitor citizen-units this way, for any purpose. By the way, it also underscores something we've talked about before: surveillance technology is moving so fast that the Chaumian idea of avoiding movement-tracking by "digital cash" may be impossible to achieve. You can spend your digibucks to avoid being tracked on a toll road, but their cameras will see your (mandatory) license plate and maybe even your face anyway. --Tim (* In the first "Robocop," anchorbimbo extraordinaire Leeza Gibbons, clone of Mary Hart, did a wonderful satire of bubbleheaded hairspray journalists.) Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 9 01:32:55 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:32:55 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. Message-ID: At 21:55 8/8/96, i am not a number! wrote: >CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central >f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake >retrofit blah blah. > >How? Their license plates have been photographed. >... and the cheery "news" anchorwoman sweetly moved on to the next >story..... You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From deviant at pooh-corner.com Fri Aug 9 01:33:16 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:33:16 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce In-Reply-To: <3209A1D4.7566@netscape.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Jamie Zawinski wrote: > If you accept that, then doesn't that make writing crypto software for > any Unix platform *even more* of a waste of time? Because last time I > checked, there were way more Macs on mom-and-pop's desks than Unix > machines, counting *all* vendors. Pardon my French, but you mus be fucking stupid or somehing. How many universities use UNIX platforms? How many companies use UNIX platforms? Sun, DEC, and SGI don't stay in buisiness by building cheap Windows boxes ya know. There are 13948 _registered_ LINUX machines, not to mention the unregistered ones. Don't tell me that Cray's were designed to run MacOS or Windows 95. UNIX isn' NEARLY as dead as Apple is. --Deviant Military secrets are the most fleeting of all. -- Spock, "The Enterprise Incident", stardate 5027.4 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgrZbTAJap8fyDMVAQFSagf8C3/HIX7XwtFYRAKxhs8AlDIsO1EXDgr9 jm9RzjGMXqHkgg0OC/0Bzp+OtcYYL5qg/JtaZo90LIdPbqEeOb7HkcYgXkPZ9SLd sQKIsZMr6IShG7ZIdPH9BRJWn131ExbUjCZ5IfMJVHsimTVbfLHHSppDylxtl2bG pI6d9FdCWj8puL3omB9PD9gpjoaF4p961+HBclH8W6PLzI+swc/6f49Uxv3LIF4w gm5IepZmoerW2iK2hwawngZPZJ4Sr4VqzyrAIvDl+rIFLFlN3ejNaGEjwHcNc43+ IBwoOS4kdv16faxT1jBskbKhcywmGqfIrap6Rdr0KkO5DyHHsSTz5g== =UBUr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 9 01:33:37 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:33:37 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: At 2:49 AM 8/9/96, John F. Fricker wrote: >Isn't that the role of legislation? To implement solutions that society >would not do on it's own? > >The enabling technology is obviously off the self. > >I think you may have misinterpretted my last sentence which was supposed to >have had a ? at the end. Where's the proof reader when you need one! "To implement solutions that society would not do on it's own?" Would not do, or could not do? It is within anyone's power to ask their psychiatrist what form of encryption he uses to protect his files. Likewise with doctors and hospitals. (Though I freely admit that one would not be likely to get very far. For at least the next decade or two, the reaction will likely be "Huh?" But "legislation" mandating a form of encryption is not the answer. For many reasons.) On this list at least, calls for passing laws to implement societal solutions are not usually smiled upon. This is not to say such discussions are out of bounds, only that you'd better make some persuasive arguments and not just appeal to our common sense sympathies for social engineering and more laws. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From hal9001 at panix.com Fri Aug 9 01:39:52 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:39:52 +0800 Subject: TrustBucks In-Reply-To: <65tr6crmj9@nowhere.com> Message-ID: At 19:11 -0500 8/7/96, TrustBuckFella wrote: > >"Robert A. Rosenberg" writes: >>I fail to see why/how the initial swap of TrustBucks(Alice) for >>TrustBucks(Bob) followed by Alice returning the TrustBucks(Bob) [as >>supposed payment] differs from her just paying with the TrustBucks(Alice) >>in the first place [ie: He is willing to accept the TrustBucks(Alice) as >>payment for the TrustBucks(Bob) that she will use to pay off her debt]. The >>net result is the same - Bob has the same amount of TrustBucks(Bob) in >> circulation and has an amount of TrustBucks(Alice) equal to Alice's payment >> [the back and forth of the TrustBucks(Bob) is just playing "Right >> Pocket/Left Pocket"]. > >I admit, my analysis is probably flawed and I appreciate you challenging >me on it. But I think it's more complex than the net result of single >transactions. > >The way I figure it, if Bob could accept / not accept any variety of >TrustBucks, then he can manipulate what varieties he reports being able >to give in order to escape debts or manipulate what varieties he reports >being able to accept in order to keep debts unpaid (for interest, >foreclosure, etc.) > > For instance, Alice is paying off her credit card, which pays Bob a > big 17% interest. Bob would rather not let her off early. "Nope, we > aren't accepting TrustBucks( Carol ) this week. TrustBucks( Dave )? > Let me see.... hmm... nope, sorry ma'am." > > For instance, Alice has just eaten at Le Cafe Bob, and is about to > leave. Presented with the cybercheck, she "discovers" that she > hasn't got anything Bob is willing to accept. "Sorry 'bout that, > Bob. Ooh, hafta run! Bye bye." > > >So it seems to me that the simplest course is to allow payment in >exactly one variety, the payee's own. Bob can't credibly claim to not >trust himself. > >You might object that the same problem is incurred anyways in >TrustBucks. If Bob refuses to trade TrustBucks( Bob ) for TrustBucks( >Carol ), isn't it the same thing as refusing TrustBucks( Carol )? > >I think it's subtly different, though. If Bob can accept other people's >currency, he need not issue any himself. He can credibly refuse early >payment, since no TrustBucks( Bob ) even exist. If Bob can only accept >TrustBucks( Bob ), then Alice, who reports having no TrustBucks( Bob ), >can't "innocently" incur debts she finds she cannot pay. I admit that Bob can play games by altering the list of which currencies (other than his own and Alice's) he is willing to accept from Alice. All I was attempting to point out was that in the simple example you stated (Alice does not have enough TrustBucks( Bob ) to pay off a debt to Bob so she "Buys" the amount she needs by using TrustBucks( Alice ) and then immediately returns the TrustBucks( Bob ) as her payment), the initial transfer of TrustBucks( Bob ) is all smoke & mirrors (and a bookkeeping trick) since he is still accepting payment in TrustBucks( Alice) not TrustBucks( Bob ). The net result is that he is canceling some debt by accepting the TrustBucks( Alice ) which he might later use to pay Alice for something. From deviant at pooh-corner.com Fri Aug 9 01:49:02 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:49:02 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Rich Burroughs wrote: > Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:50:57 -0700 (PDT) > From: Rich Burroughs > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! > > On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Looks like we're a little late. However, we can still grab the tape from > > Oregon's DMV for $220. It would be an interesting excercise to try to get > > these tapes from each state with similar provisions and put them all > > online. > > This information has been available in Oregon for at least a couple of > years on CD. I've always been concerned about the privacy implications of > that service -- perhaps that's the upside of this story? That people do > give a rat's ass about their privacy? > > I do think that the information should be able to be disseminated on the > Net as long as it's legal. > Yes, but I can also see why its a bad idea to put somebody's VIN on the Net... A clever terrorist would simply plant peices of metal with some other loser's VIN's in their car before blowing up a building, (i.e. my name's McVeigh (sp?), and this rider truck came from Oregon ;)... see my point? I do think that some information could be allowed (what your tag says, your name, your mailing address), but what was put on he net was excesive. --Deviant Horse racing *is* a stable business ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgreiTAJap8fyDMVAQHVawf/Txcu6RrhfLvx1kW3Z1VKXmzcP/AeDaeB 2VkEsicQ6xIeHHCUqrE88gJyEVdk8LXRg9wD2OQQObeQUtt6kjAyyxF4QlRz8zVC EkgD4LAlgSfK/JErkO9rHuYutRc2FFtccd48GilQXTDBQWNLJWojLuObdqnxkT5s zQDaLvVyy5p4bN2QN76nH+RnAoin+guyEl9EG4TBPo17uY2rIwt3NkTGIfASiKL5 46ugaobiE3Hmaw3GW3YR4nyva35ur3BwAo4uOmfyqsU3MEZx6SoGQpQlzIWDPqwa T73LplenMei1oTCTssQzF4YODHkqVv0u1uNpVI3GXJgwNKupfMOOtA== =Z9sz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mpd at netcom.com Fri Aug 9 01:53:45 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:53:45 +0800 Subject: Going Postal (Was: Boom!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608090539.WAA12675@netcom12.netcom.com> Lucky Green writes: >>Should wreak havoc with the mail order video tape rental business, >>with those handy pre-paid 4th class labels you just slap on the >>tapes before dropping in the nearest mailbox. > A video tape weighs less than a pound. Most video rental by mail places, like Facets or Movies Unlimited, rent up to three tapes at once, and use a single appropriately sized box. I suppose they will have to start packaging each tape separately. The typical package one sends back to a book club when they ship you the latest pulp fiction even though you sent the little card back in time weighs about two pounds. But, as Tim points out, there's always UPS, or one of the other services that will pick up at your door and is happy to have your business. The Washington Post says... "Reacting to growing concerns about mail bombs, the Postal Service said yesterday that it is taking the extrordinary step of prohibiting customers from depositing any stamped packages weighing 16 ounces or more in its collection boxes. "Posthamster General Marvin T. Runyon said the action was being taken to 'enhance security measures and to protect the traveling public, postal employees, and postal contractors who transport US mail.'" Persons who use postage meters and mail domestically are exempt from the new rule. (!) So I guess if the video place sends you a metered sticker for the return postage, you can still drop the tapes in the box. I'm not quite sure what they are trying to accomplish, other than to leap on the "we're doing our part to inconvenience the public over terrorism" bandwagon. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From grafolog at netcom.com Fri Aug 9 02:08:50 1996 From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:08:50 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? In-Reply-To: <199608090119.SAA20142@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: Jim: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > Okay, I'll admit that I _never_ believed that judges actually follow the > standards they claim to. But many other people of those who are more I know of a very good way to ensure that judges do follow the standards that they claim to follow. It works even better at making politicians keep all the election promises the make. Has one drawback --- it reduces the number of people willing to carry out those two functions to virtually zero. OTOH, that probably would be a very good thing. xan jonathon grafolog at netcom.com VapourWare is like the Tao, Looked for it cannot be found, Reached for it cannot be touched, Waited for not even FedX can deliver; From deviant at pooh-corner.com Fri Aug 9 02:25:29 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:25:29 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > Pro-gun fascism is just as bad a anti-gun fascism. > > I do recall that the "you must have a gun" town had some exemptions for > folks opposed to guns, blah blah, but it still is intensely revolting to me > that any town could ever pass such a law. Much as I think being armed is > useful and all that, allowing such a law to go unchallenged feeds into the > same approach that tries to ban guns...if guns can be required, they can be > banned. What part of the Second Amendment did they not understand? (Legal > quibblers will perhaps say the Second applies to _Congress_ (as in > "Congress shall make no law"), and not to states and communities. I > disagree. Can a town restrict free speech just because it is not the > Congress?) > > --Tim May > I agree with you. I don't have anything against guns, but either requiring them or disallowing them is just plain dumb. It should be noted that the Supreme Court's interpretaion of "Congress shall make no law" is basicly "no lawmaking body that holds any jurisdiction shall make no law"... --Deviant There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable, and praiseworthy ... -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgrhejAJap8fyDMVAQEl1gf8C06PaoBEoOB971MpYa/4DejUinTxvpCS 9Q8/AgPSnbIlMhbwGcFkbjM+kuORfsWTJmlczMRxRXIApyK4qIYoG9HEx1lYWJ+b bZ7X5FpiSKm3fIZ52eK8R2jCdcxGlq/5Fm3DrGemvPBb5swKMR8y3WWs/ETuwzOM vTBXskonzAqRoMPysKyDUc2BY5n6+k5M22JAalIyAD8HQVyTgxcPv4E8qTWsgW60 qgNy+mv3nJ0sERCDas8WWCPWJ4FuIKg+KgL8bFELkri1CU7f5DdKCxa5bFfMM9kN njd6mXMZ3qVbNtkMG59xOVIoOIx918jzXZcnXyoThbBCvIyTOFPnHQ== =aSan -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 9 02:43:23 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:43:23 +0800 Subject: Oregon DMV database: "Needs a good home" Message-ID: <199608090530.WAA04981@mail.pacifier.com> The Oregon DMV database needs a new home. I've seen a few mentions of willing volunteers, but I've deleted the notes. Could you re-send offers of interest to me? Thanks. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From daw at cs.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 9 03:07:19 1996 From: daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:07:19 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960808154452.00c70514@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: <4uep7t$tkp@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> In article , Rich Graves wrote: > I agree that this project needed to be done to educate the public, but I > must say I'm glad my name isn't attached to it. > > To answer legitimate concerns about abuse, perhaps version 2 could make the > relevant http logs publicly available? I'd be most proud to have my name associated with such a project. I say, what we need is a little more abuse. I say, a well-publicized incident of abuse of the driver's license database can do more to help the cause of privacy than any amount of intellectually compelling debate. Perhaps one horrible incident of abuse would ignite enough public backlash to stop states from selling their databases at the drop of a hat. I say this in all seriousness. Look at how much furor has been raised from one little incident (the TWA flight, the Atlanta bombing) which caused an absolutely insignificant loss of life (in the grand picture). Look at how much folks want to curb our freedom in response. We have been shown all too many times how much a highly-publicized case of abuse can be used to trample on our civil liberties. It's about time for us to wise up. It's time to fight fire with fire. No regrets, -- Dave Wagner From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 9 03:50:23 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:50:23 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? Message-ID: At 6:57 AM 8/9/96, The Deviant wrote: >I agree with you. I don't have anything against guns, but either >requiring them or disallowing them is just plain dumb. It should be >noted that the Supreme Court's interpretaion of "Congress shall make no >law" is basicly "no lawmaking body that holds any jurisdiction shall make >no law"... On this last point, I used to think so, too. However, one of the law professors on one of these lists gave various examples purporting to show that this is not so, that local jurisdictions can and do pass laws which Congress is not permitted to pass. If they read this, they can comment. --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From richieb at teleport.com Fri Aug 9 04:38:16 1996 From: richieb at teleport.com (Rich Burroughs) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 19:38:16 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote: > > I do think that the information should be able to be disseminated on the > > Net as long as it's legal. > > "The Deviant" wrote: > Yes, but I can also see why its a bad idea to put somebody's VIN on the > Net... A clever terrorist would simply plant peices of metal with some > other loser's VIN's in their car before blowing up a building, (i.e. my > name's McVeigh (sp?), and this rider truck came from Oregon ;)... see my > point? A clever terrorist could get the CD and do the same thing :) They're clever, right? > I do think that some information could be allowed (what your tag says, > your name, your mailing address), but what was put on he net was excesive. That's a function of what information the State decides to make availble. The fact that it's on the Net or not shoudln't be the issue. If I can buy it on a CD or march into a State office and get it, the same potential harms exist. I persoannly think this info is a privacy threat. But if it's legal to distribute in other forums, the Net should be no different, IMHO. All Net terrorist hype aside. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ Rich Burroughs richieb at teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~richieb See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon New EF zine "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause From frissell at panix.com Fri Aug 9 04:52:10 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 19:52:10 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960809093040.0092e510@panix.com> At 12:26 AM 8/9/96 -0700, David Wagner wrote: >I say, what we need is a little more abuse. I say, a well-publicized >incident of abuse of the driver's license database can do more to >help the cause of privacy than any amount of intellectually compelling >debate. Perhaps one horrible incident of abuse would ignite enough >public backlash to stop states from selling their databases at the >drop of a hat. The murder of the actress Rebecca Schaefer (sp?) by an obsessed fan (who paid a private detective to get her address from the California DMV) did cause California to somewhat restrict license and registration information. I think they eased up though later. I don't know who can get info there these days. This particular problem can be avoided privately by reporting a mail drop rather than your real address to the state. DCF From jk at stallion.ee Fri Aug 9 05:59:50 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 20:59:50 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: <320A1A48.5A93@pc.jaring.my> Message-ID: Thu, 8 Aug 1996, peng-chiew low wrote: > Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: > > > Have you seen Mudge's white paper on S/Key? > > Any ideas how I can get my hands on this paper? http://l0pht.com/~mudge/skey_white_paper.html J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From pjb at ny.ubs.com Fri Aug 9 08:24:44 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (Paul J. Bell) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 23:24:44 +0800 Subject: alien life found Message-ID: <9608091153.AA01894@sherry.ny.ubs.com> it's no good them showing up now. welfare for alien life forms, even if they are just germ life forms, is definitely out, as of right now, so they shouldn't even ask. -paul crypto relevance? it's obviously, isn't it? > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Wed Aug 7 18:47:42 1996 > X-Sender: schryver at radiks.net > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 05:20:33 -0500 > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > From: Scott Schryvers > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 380 > > NBC News at Sunrise has just announced the discovery of alien life on the > planet Mars. The lifeform that became extinct more than 2 billion years > ago was found as a fossil in a meteor that originated from mars and landed > on earth. The fossil found was a primitive germ life form. > > PGP encrypted mail preferred. > E-Mail me for my key. > Scott J. Schryvers > > From morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi Fri Aug 9 08:32:39 1996 From: morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi (Joel Morgan) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 23:32:39 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? Message-ID: <199608091141.OAA23296@keilin.helsinki.fi> >From Tim May's posting: > > At 6:57 AM 8/9/96, The Deviant wrote: > > >I agree with you. I don't have anything against guns, but either > >requiring them or disallowing them is just plain dumb. It should be > >noted that the Supreme Court's interpretaion of "Congress shall make no > >law" is basicly "no lawmaking body that holds any jurisdiction shall make > >no law"... > > On this last point, I used to think so, too. However, one of the law > professors on one of these lists gave various examples purporting to show > that this is not so, that local jurisdictions can and do pass laws which > Congress is not permitted to pass. [I'm not a lawyer, and I can't answer Tim's question per se, but...] As I understand it, the Bill of Rights itself was conceived strictly as a set of limitations on the -federal- government, but that the 14th ammendment has been interpreted to apply the Bill of Rights to limit state and local governments. (When and with what scope, I'm not sure.) Section 1 of the 14th Ammendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction therof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which -------------------------------------------- shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United -------------------------------------------------------------------- States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or ------ property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. (emphasis mine) -- ===================================================================== Joel.Morgan at Helsinki.FI http://blues.helsinki.fi/~morgan "Over the mountains there are mountains." -- Chang-rae Lee ===================================================================== From trei at process.com Fri Aug 9 09:56:45 1996 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 00:56:45 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? Message-ID: <199608091318.GAA20040@toad.com> Tim writes: > > Regarding that town nearby that passed a _requirement_ that all households > have a gun: [...] Quite a while back, I read an article in National Rifleman (the NRA magazine), that for part of the 19th century it was the law that all adult men in the Balkan statelet of Montenegro must carry a pistol when in public (a close relative of the ruler had a monopoly on the manufacture and sale of firearms in the kingdom). Traveler's reports noted the extreme civility of Montenegrin society during this period. Peter Trei trei at process.com From trei at process.com Fri Aug 9 09:57:53 1996 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 00:57:53 +0800 Subject: "Thank you for not smoking" and other euphemisms Message-ID: <199608091255.FAA19436@toad.com> > (And then there's the "sliding scale donation suggested," say, from $5 to > $15. Presumably this is the embodiment of pure Marxist theory, "from each > according to his ability, to each according to his need." Be interesting to > see their reaction if one declined to make any donation.) > > --Tim May This summer I went to meet my wife at the American Museum of Natural History in NYC, and discovered that I had a total of 10 cents in pennies in my pocket - and that they took only cash or checks, and the 'suggested donation' was $6. The nearest cash machine was several blocks away. So, I paid 10 cents. The cashier took it without batting an eye, gave my my donor's tag (they no longer use the little metal ones depicting a dinosaur (sigh)), and said 'Thank you'. Peter Trei trei at process.com From geoff at commtouch.co.il Fri Aug 9 10:15:06 1996 From: geoff at commtouch.co.il (geoff) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 01:15:06 +0800 Subject: PGP Mailer for the masses ? Message-ID: <19960809124443785.AAA218@[194.90.103.93]> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: provos at wserver.physnet.uni-hamburg.de, coderpunks at toad.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 09 15:56:37 1996 Niels, Thanks, for describing the features of Pronto Secure :) This is how Pronto Secure matches up to your checklist: > Here is just a short list what such a programm should be able to > do: ( all options should be optional ;) > > Sending Mail: > - Clear signing of outgoing mail YES > - If public key of recipients is known encrypt with those keys YES > - If there is access to a public keyserver try to get a public key > for the recipients YES > Receiving Mail: > - While reading mail ( similiar to premail ) try to check existing > signatures if public key is available otherwise try to get > public key from server YES (do on the fly signature checking as mail arrives in inbox) > - Traverse the web of trust and show how the public key is > related to one own keys to mutual signatures on other public keys > ( For example mean distance to a key signed by the recipient > himself ) NO (we handle certification by allowing the user to modify a list of trusted certifiers for signing keys) > - If the mail contains a public key add it to the keyring NO (Key is shown as an attachment icon double click on it adds it to the keyring) > - Don't show pgp blocks in Mail since they might confuse YES > Keymanagement: > - Should be integrated in the addressbook together with E-Mail > Address and name. YES > - Keys should be imported via generation or via mail or via a file YES (or the clipboard) > - If you have a public key without an entry in the addressbook > take the EMail and Name from the public key YES (or prompt user to supply address) > - One should be able to sign the keys during import if origin is > known NO (signing keys is a separate process. This gives the user an opportunity to authenticate on another channel) > Misc: > - Passphrase should be kept in memory for a definable time, 0 for > immediate deletion, thus you would be prompted for the passphrase > each time you use it. Question about Windows Swapspace ? or tag the > memory as uncacheable ? NO (Keyboard sniffing is too easy to do in Windows, This would give a false sense of security) > I would suggest creating a library with seperate io and gui parts in > order to motivate peeple in helping who do not want to support > mainstream products like Windows. Like taking the PGP 3.0 lib ( is it > out yet ?) and modify it a bit. YES (Separating UI from security functionality is also the right way to go for offering plug in security providers) > Since there are a variety of good functioning mailers available > already it wouldn't make sense developing the whole stuff but instead > only integrate the library into existing products. NO (It will not be an easy task to design a general library of UI elements that any mail client will be able to seemlessly plug into.) > Do you think that such proposal is senseable and that there are > people who would be willing to support the idea with programming > affords ? It exists. Plus a few additional features not mentioned, and a much longer wish-list in the process of being implemented. Check it out. It is available from http://www.commtouch.com/p1.htm IMPORTANT: COMMTOUCH WILL GIVE A FREE COPY OF PRONTO SECURE TO ANY MEMBER OF THE CODERPUNKS/CYPHERPUNKS LISTS SUPPLYING USEFUL FEEDBACK ABOUT THE PRODUCT. The impressions of early users of Pronto Secure can be viewed at: http://www.commtouch.com/testers.htm (many of whom are list members) Regards, Geoff. - --------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Klein, Pronto Secure Product Manager; www.commtouch.com My PGP public Key 1814AD45 can be obtained by sending a message to geoff at commtouch.co.il with "Get PGP Key" as the subject. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMgs1ikLv5OMYFK1FAQGe/gP/RdXtVIwo7aupkJn6X4VNTuNHHymPf9fJ k7FAsONAAP9qbr4UaWzJXxWuvmxLgt5gsMpk6yzp6vY80krQqPf6SqphW7FOjGTq PB05bNLDHm9SRGjVvKRHzGbOr094gkFpeso2C3MeMiDbT0J5gsLJOeMJsIb4NW2A lHZ6e+o535w= =R2jc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wb8foz at nrk.com Fri Aug 9 10:51:09 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 01:51:09 +0800 Subject: Going Postal (Was: Boom!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608091158.HAA13329@nrk.com> Tim: > >The Post Office has now jumped on the terrorist bandwagon by > >announcing that it will no longer be legal to drop any package > >weighing over 16 ounces into a collection box. > > Actually, CNN was reporting that this is for _airmail_ only. Which makes a > certain kind of sense, given the situation with bomb technology. Errrr.... Can you specify 'ground-only' anymore at the PO? I think not. In years past you could pay extra for air, but often were getting it anyhow. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 9 11:05:46 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:05:46 +0800 Subject: PRACTICAL USES FOR DMV RECORDS In-Reply-To: <199608090530.WAA04981@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > The Oregon DMV database needs a new home. I've seen a few > mentions of willing volunteers,... It probably needs a whole new domain. How 'bout: burglary.org That way, when burglars see an Oregon car loaded with a family heading south into California on vacation, they can just go on line and get those folks' address from the database. Afterwards, a thank you note to Oregon's DMV would be in order. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Aug 9 11:07:35 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:07:35 +0800 Subject: anarchy cookbook??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608091332.IAA19907@manifold.algebra.com> Rich Graves wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Michael Cortes wrote: > > > cypherpunks > > > > Ok this is what happend.I was looking around on the www. And came across > > the jolly roger "anarchy cookbook" and i was wondering.Any one know what > > happend to jolly roger? > > He blew himself up cooking napalm according to his directions. Napalm isn't really explosive. it is not a really dangerous substance unless it is spread around by some explosion and ignited. I myself had napalm burning on my clothes, and it really was not a big deal (you have to extinguish it though). In that case napalm was not spread by an explosion. - Igor. From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 9 11:10:51 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:10:51 +0800 Subject: Tim's Mac Tales Message-ID: <199608091415.OAA17421@pipe3.t2.usa.pipeline.com> Thaks to Tim for politely noting that I alfingered most admirable Gordon Moore as mal intendu Intel-inside wheeler-dealer. That's actually Andy Grove, el supremo maestro of Intel intel despicably untellable -- except to those deep, deep inside black budgeteering. A crank SciFi fantasy, to be sure, long ago, and well into the intel futures, disproven. Like NASDAQ never cheats consumers. From s_levien at research.att.com Fri Aug 9 11:22:47 1996 From: s_levien at research.att.com (Raph Levien) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:22:47 +0800 Subject: "Thank you for not smoking" and other euphemisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <320B2C4A.337C@research.att.com> T> "Donations suggested." This usually for leftist events, e.g., a speech by a > Nicaraguan freedom fighter. Of course, what they really mean is "admission > fee mandatory," but they call it a "suggested donation." I doubt one will > be arrested for barging through the door without paying the "suggested > donation," but this is a possibility, as they may deny admission. My dad did this once, in a museum. There was no altercation, but it does take a certain amount of balls. Raph From geeman at best.com Fri Aug 9 11:27:55 1996 From: geeman at best.com (i am not a number!) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:27:55 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates Message-ID: <320B5805.712E@best.com> At 21:55 8/8/96, i am not a number! wrote: >CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central >f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake >retrofit blah blah. > >How? Their license plates have been photographed. >... and the cheery "news" anchorwoman sweetly moved on to the next >story..... >> You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. ------------------------------------------ I AM NOT making this up, unfortunately. The news story contents may be bolluxed, of course, maybe they got it wrong. But this is what she said, no joking. O, and I think they're talking more about putting up cameras at some troubling intersections to take pictures of cars running red-lights. And cameras on transit vehicles (buses primarily). Gee, I am starting to feel so warm and safe! From nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu Fri Aug 9 11:38:37 1996 From: nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:38:37 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? Message-ID: <199608091519.JAA05472@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> jim bell wrote: >When supporting plans like GAK ("key escrow") and wiretaps... >If we allow this fiasco to die without a full analysis, >particularly in light of the government's repeated assurances >with regards to search warrants, we will be as incompetent as >the police were. Further, my original question, phoned in anonymously to the FBI, mailed in anonymously to this list, and asked to the media (I guess I like wasting my time) has never been either asked or answered. I will restate it in stronger terms: "Why the hell, when you have a tape of the perp. saying something, do you not air it in the middle of a city chock full of people who could very well know this guy's voice/mannerisms?" Why didn't the media ask for it, and then give the answer (the fibbieclerk had no answer at all for me) the FBI gave?? Am I missing something? We hear 911 tapes ALL THE TIME of various stuff happening. Has the FBI suddenly become a bunch of civil liberties activists WRT the privacy of terrorist bombers? Just asking. me From provos at ws1.physnet.uni-hamburg.de Fri Aug 9 11:40:02 1996 From: provos at ws1.physnet.uni-hamburg.de (Niels Provos) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:40:02 +0800 Subject: PGP Mailer for the masses ? In-Reply-To: <19960809124443785.AAA218@[194.90.103.93]> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, geoff wrote: > Thanks, for describing the features of Pronto Secure :) > This is how Pronto Secure matches up to your checklist: > > - Traverse the web of trust and show how the public key is > > related to one own keys to mutual signatures on other public keys > > ( For example mean distance to a key signed by the recipient > > himself ) > NO (we handle certification by allowing the user to modify a list of > trusted certifiers for signing keys) I personally would find it useful if you could get a measure of trustworthy ness due to keydistance. Like that if I knew that the sender is only 2 keys away from my own I would most likely trust his public key to be the original, it would be nice to see the signing people involved though: Max Miller |-signed- a friend of mine <-signed- me |-signed- Molly Malone <-signed- Someone <-signed- friend <- signed me According to http://bcn.boulder.co.us/~neal/pgpstat/ there were 19124 keys in the keyserver but the biggest werb of trust had only 1291 keys and the next only 16 keys. The mean key distance was between 6 and 7. That means that you don't have to get too many public keys in order to find the connection to your key and on the other hand it might show that calculating trust according to keydistance isn't worth is since the web of trusts are so small. But I figure if you would show the connection of keys in your mailer it might encourage people to participate in key signing parties. > > Misc: > > - Passphrase should be kept in memory for a definable time, 0 for > > immediate deletion, thus you would be prompted for the passphrase > > each time you use it. Question about Windows Swapspace ? or tag the > > memory as uncacheable ? > NO (Keyboard sniffing is too easy to do in Windows, This would give > a false sense of security) How would you get the pass phrase if not via the keyboard ? And if you keep it in memory till you sign off ( like in premail ) you would only have to type it once, though capturing the pass phrase once is normaly enough. > > I would suggest creating a library with seperate io and gui parts in > > order to motivate peeple in helping who do not want to support > > mainstream products like Windows. Like taking the PGP 3.0 lib ( is it > > out yet ?) and modify it a bit. > YES (Separating UI from security functionality is also the right > way to go for offering plug in security providers) Though I think that Pronto Secure will help spread the use of cryptography I would prefer a source code distributed library which could handle most of the stuff needed including for example preparing encrypted requests to key servers ( via anonymous remailers or not )( it keyservers will implement encrypted requests ) or calculating the key distance if possible with the available keys. I guess one should wait for the arrival of the pgp 3.0 lib and evaluate what it can and can't. Greetings Niels Provos =8) - - PHYSnet Rechnerverbund PGP V2.6 Public key via finger or key server Niels Provos Universitaet Hamburg WWW: http://www.physnet.uni-hamburg.de/provos/ Jungiusstrasse 9 E-Mail: provos at wserver.physnet.uni-hamburg.de Germany 20355 Hamburg Tel.: +49 40 4123-2504 Fax: -6571 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQCVAwUBMgtHOcweILHCAJhBAQFtyQQAo+UQF3KmpAIIQ/rEh1JHHAsQUBd9k6dk OB2lfer/dV+kDUrgpW3CDP/GdlgMIl6LCReJz6pXTA1RShQ74cdB0HokQDfytfJW pWjHbnUcrfCmotG4KjcWw4MBJLXLbBGY0yqcmhTiOCTpLNuv52Tvtz86vOwe4yxq ysXIXokGJpw= =5An3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 9 11:50:24 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:50:24 +0800 Subject: "Thank you for not smoking" and other euphemisms In-Reply-To: <320B2C4A.337C@research.att.com> Message-ID: Raph Levien writes: > T> "Donations suggested." This usually for leftist events, e.g., a > speech by a > > Nicaraguan freedom fighter. Of course, what they really mean is "admission > > fee mandatory," but they call it a "suggested donation." I doubt one will > > be arrested for barging through the door without paying the "suggested > > donation," but this is a possibility, as they may deny admission. > > My dad did this once, in a museum. There was no altercation, but it > does take a certain amount of balls. > I do it regularly at museums - I find their "suggested donations" for kids' admissions a rip-off. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From David.K.Merriman at toad.com Fri Aug 9 11:59:00 1996 From: David.K.Merriman at toad.com (David.K.Merriman at toad.com) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:59:00 +0800 Subject: Going Postal (Was: Boom!) Message-ID: <199608091513.IAA21952@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 09 10:12:37 1996 > The Post Office has now jumped on the terrorist bandwagon by > announcing that it will no longer be legal to drop any package > weighing over 16 ounces into a collection box. > ... > > I suspect one could do a lot of damage to a mailbox with under 16 > ounces of the proper explosive. Perhaps one of our resident > Cypherpunks bomb experts could expand on this subject. Don't know that I'm a 'bomb expert', but it would appear reasonable that 6 just-under-a-pound bombs would do approximately as much damage as a similarly sized larger device. Even if the 6 devices got scattered to two or more aircraft, the terror factor would be significant Dave Merriman - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCUAwUBMgqeo8VrTvyYOzAZAQFGfAP3ZL7pgWjadNN93mtwdG4cm60VjGcdP4G9 JlwS96gs6QJ0lD1CImMQL82KUIYe1IpPidC3bq5kTQhGbdM69yFiUmCxOGNwnH1L pEbeEZ/OGDf0bnk/BYhoRKp1ufgdTVVSB1T0WZEYIaLe2zX1zzQPli4LW4UPUrds 5tmjt4QMEg== =AZ0H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From adam at homeport.org Fri Aug 9 11:59:57 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:59:57 +0800 Subject: Crypto Interface in Netscape Message-ID: <199608091618.LAA22619@homeport.org> Is it just my windows machine or are the security dialogs in Netscape3.0b6 completely unreadable? I get a dithered grey background behind black text. Can'tread the dialog boxes that show up when I see a new cert. (Speaking of which, there seems to be a new long list of acceptable CA's. Has Netscape published a policy doc explaining how Adam's Quik & EZ CA can get on the list? And, those CA's should have hyperlinks, so I can easily find their policies for key signing, so I can decide rationally that I don't trust the Post Office to certify things. Right now, its just a gut feeling that they can't be trusted. "Please don't call them junk certificates.") Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Fri Aug 9 12:48:11 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:48:11 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960809154848.0126c108@vertexgroup.com> At 11:23 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 2:49 AM 8/9/96, John F. Fricker wrote: > >>Isn't that the role of legislation? To implement solutions that society >>would not do on it's own? >> >>The enabling technology is obviously off the self. >> >>I think you may have misinterpretted my last sentence which was supposed to >>have had a ? at the end. Where's the proof reader when you need one! > >"To implement solutions that society would not do on it's own?" > >Would not do, or could not do? It is within anyone's power to ask their >psychiatrist what form of encryption he uses to protect his files. Likewise >with doctors and hospitals. > Well where there's a will there's a way. I agree that the general public and the market place often lacks the power to affect particular events. Central planning can facility certain processes. Free-marketers may argue that I can query and select based upon my encryption criteria but chances are my psychiatrist will do nothing more than "make note" of paranoia and ponder it's significance: "Do you resent your mother?" >(Though I freely admit that one would not be likely to get very far. For at >least the next decade or two, the reaction will likely be "Huh?" But >"legislation" mandating a form of encryption is not the answer. For many >reasons.) > >On this list at least, calls for passing laws to implement societal >solutions are not usually smiled upon. This is not to say such discussions >are out of bounds, only that you'd better make some persuasive arguments >and not just appeal to our common sense sympathies for social engineering >and more laws. I am not a great fan of social engineering and regulations. Yet the legisture in Oregon may get called for a special session to address this issue and I see this an opportunity for a grander arguement than merely acccess to the DMV data. And as much as we dislike the presence of the governments they do indeed exist. Living within their domain limits our choices to either: complacency through inaction (cynicism et al), attempts at isolation (back to the land), or taking an active role through voting, education, civil disobedience or participation in the process (a pox on party politics! the latter choice is easily the least enticing while civil disobedience can be truly fun! >g<). Ok so call me a statist and shove me out the door, but I am not argueing for the existance of a state. It does currently exist and I am not self-sufficient. But I digress. So. #1) My state legislature may very well get called to address this issue. Do they have any concept of the big picture here? That the DMV data is one small part of a debate regarding privacy which needs to be addressed. This is an opportunity for some education and by the end of the day I should know if my representatives are willing to listen. #2) The records industry (for lack of a better term to encompass all companies that accumulate data on individuals) needs some standards and guidelines. Or walls and fences. Maybe even bars and a moat! And the sooner the better. Federally imposed software requirements are not uncommon in certain industries. It is time for standards for the personal data maintained by co-operating entities (ie agencies the public co-operates with such as doctors, the DMV, and so on). #3) The goal is the anonymous citizen. The first step it to secure the data currently exposed. Can this be done _without_ legislation? --j From pjb at ny.ubs.com Fri Aug 9 13:00:17 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (Paul J. Bell) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:00:17 +0800 Subject: SecurID Message-ID: <9608091601.AA02324@sherry.ny.ubs.com> someone at my firm is about to press the securid system down our collective throats. please point me to the recent thread on this subject, and/or point me to some url's or the like, or to someone who has some firsthand knowledge of the pitfalls and/or vulnerbilities of secirid. cheers, -paul From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 9 13:03:21 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:03:21 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, The Deviant wrote: > On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Rich Burroughs wrote: > > I do think that the information should be able to be disseminated on the > > Net as long as it's legal. What does "legal" have to do with it? > Yes, but I can also see why its a bad idea to put somebody's VIN on the > Net... A clever terrorist would simply plant peices of metal with some > other loser's VIN's in their car before blowing up a building, (i.e. my > name's McVeigh (sp?), and this rider truck came from Oregon ;)... see my > point? Come on, we all know that McVeigh was set up by ZOG. It was conclusively proven that the Oklahoma City Federal Building was bombed from the inside with military explosives, a clear provocation. > I do think that some information could be allowed (what your tag says, > your name, your mailing address), but what was put on he net was excesive. What do you mean, "allowed"? The market will decide. If you don't like what someone has said about you, send Jim Bell an anonymous note. The market will decide. Fucking statist. - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMgtjX5NcNyVVy0jxAQGECAH9G6/T6243AP0/IyxGEgZ6UHALcgWypJsa B4rxfxhQIichV7crUQ5cJvvXdyGZFMlZLPbHolgNbb+ik4sDk7YkBA== =2z/C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 9 13:12:12 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:12:12 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? Message-ID: At 3:19 PM 8/9/96, Anonymous wrote: >Further, my original question, phoned in anonymously to the FBI, >mailed in anonymously to this list, and asked to the media (I >guess I like wasting my time) has never been either asked or >answered. I will restate it in stronger terms: >"Why the hell, when you have a tape of the perp. saying something, >do you not air it in the middle of a city chock full of people >who could very well know this guy's voice/mannerisms?" Why didn't >the media ask for it, and then give the answer (the fibbieclerk >had no answer at all for me) the FBI gave?? Am I missing something? >We hear 911 tapes ALL THE TIME of various stuff happening. Has the >FBI suddenly become a bunch of civil liberties activists WRT the >privacy of terrorist bombers? >Just asking. This is the single best suggestion/question I have heard about this entire case! Why, indeed, has the 911 threat not been aired publically, where someone might recognize the voice as being that of their brother, or boss, or whatever? And might hear immediately that whomever it is, it ain't Richard Jewell. If any of you cyber-journalists who hang out here in the wings on Cypherpunks, collecting material for stories, are reading this, please ask your journalists covering the Atlanta bombing about this. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 9 13:14:05 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:14:05 +0800 Subject: The Ostrich Security Principle Message-ID: At 2:47 PM 8/9/96, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >It probably needs a whole new domain. How 'bout: > > burglary.org > >That way, when burglars see an Oregon car loaded with a family >heading south into California on vacation, they can just go on >line and get those folks' address from the database. > >Afterwards, a thank you note to Oregon's DMV would be in order. Sounds like a market niche to me...people at the border could sell the plate numbers (and even full DMV searches) of cars they see....maybe with a higher price paid for "real-time quotes," and a lower price paid for "15-minute-delayed quotes." Just like the stock market. By the way, I'm watching MSNBC and they're engaging in a fretfest about this Oregon situation, with calls for "regulating the Internet." "There is no good reason for this to be on the Internet." is one line I heard. (If the stuff is legal to own, and is "public information," just what exception to the First Amendment could be used to bar publishing?) BTW, this latest issue is similar to the flap several years ago over Lotus' plan to sell to the public a CD-ROM of zipcodes and whatnot. (I think it was called "Lotus Neighborhoods.") So-called "privacy activists" raised a hue and cry and the plan was cancelled. Of course, corporations and other such interest groups can get the data, so not much was accomplished. Many of us thought it was a blow to real privacy issues. The Ostrich Security Principle: "It is more important to have the _illusion_ of privacy than to have real privacy." --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From peter.allan at aeat.co.uk Fri Aug 9 13:23:16 1996 From: peter.allan at aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:23:16 +0800 Subject: secret sharing protocol - new or reinvented ? Message-ID: <9608091638.AA17409@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk> Schneier in That Book 2nd Ed p73 refers to "secret sharing with disenrollment", but without giving details of such a scheme. He gives a reference [1004] I think, by K Martin, which has about 10 pages on the subject. But I have not got it. I planned a "secret sharing with disenrollment" scheme last night. Here is a brief description and if somebody with the book tells me it's new (unlikely I think) I'll write it up in more formally. It has a resemblance to S/Key, but in the other direction and using a keyed hash function. If you see snags with this, I'd like to know. Peter Allan peter.allan at aeat.co.uk Trent chooses his shareholders, a block cypher (or keyed hash), a threshold, and a number of steps. The threshold should be more than half the number of shareholders. (Say 15 shareholders for a 10 out of 15 scheme, using DES, over 20 steps.) Trent generates 15 64-bit DES keys (not caring about parity), and gives them securely one to each shareholder. He introduces all shareholders to each other so they can recognise each other later. He also tells them the number of steps (here 20). Trent (in possession of all shares) calculates the secret, which is a 64-bit number. Obviously this could just be a key for a secret not yet created at share distribution time. Secret calculation is performed by executing the required number of steps, and the result of the last step is the secret. Disenrollment (conducted by shareholders, presumably under orders from Trent) is the performance of one step, omitting those to be disenrolled. (The number of possible disenrollments is limited by the threshold.) One step is this set of actions: Using a normal threshold scheme, such as Shamir's Lagrange Polynomials a sufficient number of shareholders construct a single secret from their shares. Call this M. M is then used to update all their shares using a keyed hash function. Table 18.1 suggests H_i = E H_i-1 (M) XOR M M and every H_i-1 is destroyed. Now those absent from the meeting have no M value to advance their share, and nobody (even the other shareholders following a change of heart) can reproduce it for them. Shareholders deduct 1 from the number of steps still to be performed. From grafolog at netcom.com Fri Aug 9 13:35:05 1996 From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:35:05 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960809093040.0092e510@panix.com> Message-ID: Duncan: On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote: > cause California to somewhat restrict license and registration information. > I think they eased up though later. I don't know who can get info there You have to register as a company with CA DMV. Pay them an annual fee, and a per report pulled fee, and only pull records for a _legitimate business need._ Addresses are only provided if a court case the target of the search is listed as being involved in. Docket # must be listed -- which gives rise to some interesting problems. > This particular problem can be avoided privately by reporting a mail drop > rather than your real address to the state. Depends upon the state. In some states it is a misdemeanor to list anything other than your physical address. Others don't care what you list, so long as mail can be delivered there. More important is ensuring that all the addresses that the state has on you are the same. The preference seems to be to have the same address as is on one's checks. What I've noted some people do, is give their physical address, and provide a mail address as well. Then the individuals move, and omit to notify the state of the move. When questioned about it, their usual response is something along the lines of " I get all of my mail at my mail box. I did not realize that I had to file a change of address form, with you. After all the address on my licence is the address where I get my mail. [ In most states the mail address is the address listed when two addresses are provided. ] " xan jonathon grafolog at netcom.com VapourWare is like the Tao, Looked for it cannot be found, Reached for it cannot be touched, Waited for not even FedX can deliver; From Ryan.Russell at sybase.com Fri Aug 9 13:41:02 1996 From: Ryan.Russell at sybase.com (Ryan Russell/SYBASE) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:41:02 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. Message-ID: <9608091711.AA27237@notesgw2.sybase.com> How about a cypherpunks group activity for the SF area? 2 per car, one to drive, and one to moon.... Ryan ---------- Previous Message ---------- To: geeman, cypherpunks cc: From: shamrock @ netcom.com (Lucky Green) @ smtp Date: 08/08/96 10:45:06 PM Subject: Re: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. At 21:55 8/8/96, i am not a number! wrote: >CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central >f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake >retrofit blah blah. > >How? Their license plates have been photographed. >... and the cheery "news" anchorwoman sweetly moved on to the next >story..... You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 9 13:51:47 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:51:47 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: <4uep7t$tkp@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On 9 Aug 1996, David Wagner wrote: > In article , > Rich Graves wrote: > > I agree that this project needed to be done to educate the public, but I > > must say I'm glad my name isn't attached to it. > > > > To answer legitimate concerns about abuse, perhaps version 2 could make the > > relevant http logs publicly available? > > I'd be most proud to have my name associated with such a project. > > I say, what we need is a little more abuse. I say, a well-publicized > incident of abuse of the driver's license database can do more to > help the cause of privacy than any amount of intellectually compelling > debate. Perhaps one horrible incident of abuse would ignite enough > public backlash to stop states from selling their databases at the > drop of a hat. We did this in California, remember? You just need to target someone who's been on TV. > We have been shown all too many times how much a highly-publicized > case of abuse can be used to trample on our civil liberties. It's > about time for us to wise up. It's time to fight fire with fire. I quite agree. But make it a controlled burn. Log everything. Restrict bulk downloads. You don't need to let the genie all the way out of the bottle to say "look, a genie." It might be fun to make the database open for a couple weeks, without a caveat about logging, and then publish the logs. Allow reverse lookups, i.e., who looked up my record. A nice little dragnet of people who are interested in invading your privacy. For the near-medium term, I am resigned to the fact that government is going to collect personal information, and that it is going to leak out. I'm just interested in full disclosure of the leaks, and who is benefiting from them. - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMgtmIJNcNyVVy0jxAQGvYgIArY2RcSR5RWaVDIzDGs1cVqSnCH5nhPL+ Y5VLghwkSnNcr5NPSJzc2BFWHB40c4aXb5pPnLaSjPiwj5HgkmE0Tg== =Es4x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org Fri Aug 9 13:59:34 1996 From: sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:59:34 +0800 Subject: Unknown address (fwd) tigerteam??? Message-ID: What's the story with the tiger.team at tigerteam.org bounces? I've been getting quite a few of these from time to time, once when sending a message Sterndark. In this case this message wasn't addressed to cypherpunks at toad.com, and it was a private message to Adam Back aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk... I couldn't do a traceroute to dcs.ex.ac.uk since it's an unknown host to my system... So perhaps, given the hit below, this is by uucp, but even so, should the bounced message come from tigerteam?? Is tigerteam somehow snarfing up messages they shouldn't? Even if they're a uucp gateway to England, shouldn't the bounce come from dcs.ex.ac.uk and not from tigerteam/netcom??? % whois shows this for them: whois tigerteam.org Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network (TIGERTEAM-DOM) 347 Warwick Suite #101 Oakland, CA 94610 Domain Name: TIGERTEAM.ORG Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Macko, Jeffrey (JM67) jmacko at TIGERTEAM.ORG (510) 268-1012 Record last updated on 29-Mar-94. Record created on 10-Sep-93. Domain servers in listed order: UUCPNS1.NETCOM.COM 163.179.3.221 UUCPNS2.NETCOM.COM 163.179.3.222 The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. Looking at the headers for the bounced message I see: >From postmaster at tigerteam.org Fri Aug 9 07:52:01 1996 Return-Path: postmaster at tigerteam.org Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp12.netcom.com [163.179.3.12]) by ian.dor sai.org (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA09408 for ; Fri , 9 Aug 1996 07:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tigerteam.org by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id EAA15108; Fri, 9 Aug 1996 04:42:10 -0700 Received: by tigerteam.org (wcGATE v4) id 37297W Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:33:39 GMT From: postmaster at tigerteam.org (Postmaster) Subject: Unknown address Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:54:32 GMT Message-Id: <96080903333941546 at tigerteam.org> Organization: Tiger Team Info Net: Modem (510) 523-5300 To: sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org Status: RO X-Status: The user this message was addressed to does not exist at this site. Please verify the name and domain in the original message that follows. Message was addressed to: TIGER.TEAM at tigerteam.org ========================================================================== + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder at dorsai.org|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| --------------- |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | Just Say "No" to|KA|law abridging the freedom of speech' |==\|/== + v + | Janet Reno & GAK|AK| do you not understand? |======= ===================http://www.dorsai.org/~sunder/========================= Key Escrow Laws are the mating calls of those who'd abuse your privacy! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:54:32 GMT From: Postmaster To: sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org Subject: Unknown address The user this message was addressed to does not exist at this site. Please verify the name and domain in the original message that follows. Message was addressed to: TIGER.TEAM at tigerteam.org ----- Original Message follows ----- From: Ray Arachelian To: Adam Back Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:06:45 -0400 (edt) Subject: Re: crypto CD source On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Adam Back wrote: > > Cypherpunks archive? > > http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/ > > The earlier archives were at www.hks.net, try mailing cactus at hks.net. I've a bunch of .gz files for the filtered cypherpunks list I run, they should contain stuff as far back as last year. How would I get these to ya? ========================================================================== + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder at dorsai.org|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| --------------- |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | Just Say "No" to|KA|law abridging the freedom of speech' |==\|/== + v + | Janet Reno & GAK|AK| do you not understand? |======= ===================http://www.dorsai.org/~sunder/========================= Key Escrow Laws are the mating calls of those who'd abuse your privacy! From bkmarsh at feist.com Fri Aug 9 14:15:31 1996 From: bkmarsh at feist.com (Bruce M.) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:15:31 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > I can't find the exact quote, but Will Rogers quipped that every > time Congress made a law, it was a joke. And every time Congress > made a joke it was a law. The town near Morton Grove was not > making a real requirement that every household have a gun, they > were just making a joke at Morton Grove's expense. In addition > to the "exceptions," there was no penalty for violation of the > law, thus making sure it was unenforceable. It was not a case > of "pro-gun fascism" but of rough American political humor. At > the very least it kept the city council out of more serious > mischief. This is very similiar to the law (federal I believe) which states that you must report any 'computer crimes' to the authorities. There are no punishments and it was obviously crafted to be more of a means of counting the crimes than solving them. If anyone is interetes, I will get the specifics. ________________________________ [ Bruce M. - Feist Systems, Inc. ] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Official estimates show that more than 120 countries have or are developing [information warfare] capabilities." -GAO/AIMD-96-84 So, what is your excuse now? From Ryan.Russell at sybase.com Fri Aug 9 14:20:44 1996 From: Ryan.Russell at sybase.com (Ryan Russell/SYBASE) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:20:44 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: <9608091717.AA27395@notesgw2.sybase.com> Actually, DEC is trying to stay in business building expensive Windows boxes. The numbers I remember hearing are something like: 1,000,000 Unix machines 10,000,000 Macs 150,000,000 "PCs" (presumable not running *nix) Why should we care what platform people develop for? I use all of 'em. If a package supports more than one, all the better. As to why one should develop crypto stuff for unix, the demographics of this list are probably reason enough.. I use PCs as my main platform, but I get the distinct impression that most of the folks here use unix primarily. Maybe they're just the most vocal :) Ryan ---------- Previous Message ---------- To: jwz cc: cypherpunks From: deviant @ pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) @ smtp Date: 08/09/96 06:23:32 AM Subject: Re: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Jamie Zawinski wrote: > If you accept that, then doesn't that make writing crypto software for > any Unix platform *even more* of a waste of time? Because last time I > checked, there were way more Macs on mom-and-pop's desks than Unix > machines, counting *all* vendors. Pardon my French, but you mus be fucking stupid or somehing. How many universities use UNIX platforms? How many companies use UNIX platforms? Sun, DEC, and SGI don't stay in buisiness by building cheap Windows boxes ya know. There are 13948 _registered_ LINUX machines, not to mention the unregistered ones. Don't tell me that Cray's were designed to run MacOS or Windows 95. UNIX isn' NEARLY as dead as Apple is. --Deviant Military secrets are the most fleeting of all. -- Spock, "The Enterprise Incident", stardate 5027.4 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgrZbTAJap8fyDMVAQFSagf8C3/HIX7XwtFYRAKxhs8AlDIsO1EXDgr9 jm9RzjGMXqHkgg0OC/0Bzp+OtcYYL5qg/JtaZo90LIdPbqEeOb7HkcYgXkPZ9SLd sQKIsZMr6IShG7ZIdPH9BRJWn131ExbUjCZ5IfMJVHsimTVbfLHHSppDylxtl2bG pI6d9FdCWj8puL3omB9PD9gpjoaF4p961+HBclH8W6PLzI+swc/6f49Uxv3LIF4w gm5IepZmoerW2iK2hwawngZPZJ4Sr4VqzyrAIvDl+rIFLFlN3ejNaGEjwHcNc43+ IBwoOS4kdv16faxT1jBskbKhcywmGqfIrap6Rdr0KkO5DyHHsSTz5g== =UBUr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From m1tca00 at FRB.GOV Fri Aug 9 14:26:59 1996 From: m1tca00 at FRB.GOV (Thomas C. Allard) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:26:59 +0800 Subject: Boom! Message-ID: <9608091717.AA14737@bksmp2.FRB.GOV> tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) said: > What recourse does he have that camera crews were invited in on the > searches? Subject: CBS Liable for Filming Search From: dante at halcyon.halcyon.com (Dan Tenenbaum) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 94 15:52:58 EDT Article: 28633 of rec.arts.tv Followup-To: alt.prisons Newsgroups: alt.prisons,misc.legal,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.privacy,rec.arts.tv Organization: mellow owl mailing field Xref: glendora alt.prisons:817 misc.legal:28311 alt.privacy:7678 rec.arts.tv:28633 [Paul Wright, the imprisoned editor of Prison Legal News, sent me the following and asked me to distribute it widely on the the net because there has been no coverage of this in the mainstream media. Followups to alt.prisons because I read it. Nyah. Typos are mine. The article will appear in slightly different form in the next PLN. PLN is available from P.O. Box 1684, Lake Worth, FL 33460. $12 for subscriptions and $1 for a sample copy. Dan Tenenbaum (dante at microsoft.com or dante at halcyon.com)] CBS Liable for Filming Search In a landmark decision a federal court in New York has ruled that a CBS film crew and Secret Service agents are liable for filming and broadcasting a search of a private citizen's home. It is the first reported court decision to hold a television broadcaster liable for accompanying police agents on a search and filming it for the broadcast. Anyone who has watched "Cops," "Hard Copy," "America's Most Wanted," or any of the "real life" cop shows has seen the degrading and propagandistic manner in which the victims of police repression are portrayed. The broadcasters and the police can be sued and held liable for such actions. In 1992 Secret Service agents obtained a search warrant from a federal court authorizing the search of an apartment shared by Babatunde Ayeni, his wife Tawa, and small son Kayode, seeking evidence of a credit card fraud operation. At 6PM on March 5, 1992, several Secret Service (SS) agents forced their way into the Ayeni residence announcing they had a warrant to conduct a search and ask questions. Only Mrs. Ayeni and her son were home at the time. At about 8:15 four more SS agents arrived with a film crew from the CBS news program "Street Stories." The CBS film crew was never identified as CBS employees. The CBS crew followed the SS agents and taped them as they searched the apartment. They took closeup shots of the home's interior, its closets, personal letters, family photos, etc. In the apartment's foyer an SS agent was interviewed about the modus operandi of people who commit credit card frauds and the tools of their trade. During this tape sequence the SS agent implied the complicity of the other residents of the Ayeni apartment. No evidence implicating the Ayenis in any illegal activity was found during the search. One of the agents was filmed expressing his disappointment. The Ayenis filed suit against the federal agents as well as CBS, contending that the search and its filming violated their fourth amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. In his opinion Judge Weinstein agreed with the Ayenis. The defendants sought qualified immunity, which the court denied. Under the doctrine of qualified immunity government agents are entitled to be free from liability for money damages even if they violate constitutional rights as long as the right is not "well established" so that a person of reasonable intelligence would know that the right violated was recognized. In the case the court held that any reasonable police agent would have known that it is unconstitutional to have private citizens accompany them on a search to film and broadcast the search. The court relied on 18 U.S.C. sec. 3105 which requires that search warrants be served by an official authorized to serve the warrant and by no other person unless their assistance is required in conducting the search, i.e. an accountant, forensic expert, etc., depending on the nature of the offense being investigated. Thus, the SS agents should have known that having a film crew taping their activities was illegal. Courts have previously held that taking photos is a "seizure" within the meaning of the fourth amendment. CBS also claimed qualified immunity from suit. The court notes that private entities are not entitled to qualified immunity from suit, it only applies to government actors. The court used harsh language in condemning the actions by the SS and CBS. "The search warrant was issued to agent Mottola and other agents of the Unites States Secret Service for precise and limited purposes. It authorized their entry into the Ayenis' home only to search for items related to credit card fraud. Agent Mottola's act of facilitating the CBS camera crew's entry into the apartment and its filming of the search exceeded the scope of the warrant. It was allegedly in clear violation then well [sic] established fourth amendment principles. ...it is the equivalent of a rogue policeman using his official position to break into a home in order to steal objects for his own profit or that of another." For immunity purposes it would be "...grossly unreasonable for a government agent not to have known that the presence of private persons he invited in so that they could titillate and entertain others was beyond the scope of what was lawfully authorized by the warrant. "CBS had no greater right than that of a thief to be in the home, to 'capture' the scene of the search on film and to remove the photographic record. The images, though created by the camera, are a part of the household; they could not be removed without permission or official right....The television tape was a seizure of private property, information, for non-governmental purposes." It is entirely possible that litigation by the victims of this type of police and media activity may be able to halt the spread of "police TV." Findings of liability against both police and the broadcaster will see to it that police activity is not broadcast to "entertain and titillate." So if you've been filmed against your will during a police search you too can sue for an invasion of your privacy and your fourth amendment rights. The court decision is reported at: Ayeni v. CBS, Inc., 848 F. Supp 362 (ED NY 1994). rgds-- TA (tallard at frb.gov) I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me. pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6 DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 9 14:30:13 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:30:13 +0800 Subject: The Ostrich Security Principle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > Sounds like a market niche to me...people at the border could > sell the plate numbers (and even full DMV searches) of cars > they see.... > By the way, I'm watching MSNBC and they're engaging in a > fretfest about this Oregon situation, with calls for > "regulating the Internet." The Internet just makes it more efficient. The way it used to work, is that Northern California service station attendants would look in Oregon cars they were servicing for registration papers or get other indications (from drivers license, checks, credit card imprints or social engineering) the name and/or address of the traveler. This information was then sent to accomplices in Oregon for "processing." This is an OLD story. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From wb8foz at nrk.com Fri Aug 9 14:50:58 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:50:58 +0800 Subject: "Thank you for not smoking" and other euphemisms In-Reply-To: <320B2C4A.337C@research.att.com> Message-ID: <199608091804.OAA14810@nrk.com> Donations are not subject to local admissions taxes. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 9 14:53:39 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:53:39 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, jonathon wrote: > In some states it is a misdemeanor to list anything other than > your physical address. I believe that in California, you may have a PO Box on your driver's license, but the state has to have your "real" address in its records. As noted, some people forget to update this information when they move, and others list their lawyer's address with the state. Presumably, that should satisfy the legal justifications for requiring an address. > More important is ensuring that all the addresses that the > state has on you are the same. The preference seems to be > to have the same address as is on one's checks. That may be the preference, but I just use my e-mail address on my checks. If more is required to cut a deal, I can choose to add more information by hand if I am willing to do so to do the transaction. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Fri Aug 9 15:07:58 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:07:58 +0800 Subject: PRACTICAL USES FOR DMV RECORDS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960809182850.01276ed0@vertexgroup.com> At 07:47 AM 8/9/96 -0700, you wrote: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > >C'punks, > >On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > >> The Oregon DMV database needs a new home. I've seen a few >> mentions of willing volunteers,... > >It probably needs a whole new domain. How 'bout: > > burglary.org > >That way, when burglars see an Oregon car loaded with a family >heading south into California on vacation, they can just go on >line and get those folks' address from the database. > >Afterwards, a thank you note to Oregon's DMV would be in order. > > Currently they can stop in at the DMV, say something to the effect "this car hit my dog", pay $4 cash and never even have to take off the ski mask. The DMV has no ID requirements for giving out this information. It has without a doubt already been bought and sold many times to marketing companies ("Hey this guys got an old Toyota"), insurance companies, private investigators, thieves and mobsters, and at least one person on our side. Until there is such a thing as the "anonymous citizen" public data might as well be as public as it gets. This "for those who know" policy is pervasive and must end. --j Oregonian and in that database From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 15:08:14 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:08:14 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608091830.LAA25424@toad.com> Cypherpunks, Aaron - >> I'm watching the LA NBC news channel, and they report that the Oregon "look >> up any license plate" Web site is causing a flap. Though apparently legal, >> the critics admit, the Governor wants the material removed. ( Aaron Nabil's page is at http://www.i.net/cgi-bin/plates , but temporarily won't give you license plate information.) A nice touch, at least for now, would be to put up some propaganda about "The State of Oregon sells your license plate information to anyone who wants to buy it. Big companies have it. Small sleazy companies have it. Tax collectors have it. Car thieves and burglars can buy it if they want. Everybody but _you_ has it -- I've put it on the net so you can have it too. If this bothers you (and maybe it should), don't complain to the governor about it being on the web - complain that the State is selling your private data. I've taken the server down temporarily, but press HERE for the Governor's info, HERE for Senator Hatfield (AAA001), and HERE for the DMV head bureaucrat?" If you want to get fancy, you could have the search return a FOUND / NOT FOUND record, so people could check for vanity license plates (if Oregon has them), or search for well-known politicians' information. The data's there; it's just a matter of crunching it. "Big Bro knows License Plate AAA001, Mr. M. H. " "Big Brother doesn't know License Plate AAA" # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com #
Defuse Authority! From deviant at pooh-corner.com Fri Aug 9 15:08:25 1996 From: deviant at pooh-corner.com (The Deviant) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:08:25 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Rich Burroughs wrote: > Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 00:12:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: Rich Burroughs > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! > > I wrote: > > > I do think that the information should be able to be disseminated on the > > > Net as long as it's legal. > > > > > "The Deviant" wrote: > > Yes, but I can also see why its a bad idea to put somebody's VIN on the > > Net... A clever terrorist would simply plant peices of metal with some > > other loser's VIN's in their car before blowing up a building, (i.e. my > > name's McVeigh (sp?), and this rider truck came from Oregon ;)... see my > > point? > > A clever terrorist could get the CD and do the same thing :) They're > clever, right? > Yes, well, true, but my point was that not _all_ of that information should be available AT ALL. > > I do think that some information could be allowed (what your tag says, > > your name, your mailing address), but what was put on he net was excesive. > > That's a function of what information the State decides to make availble. > The fact that it's on the Net or not shoudln't be the issue. If I can buy > it on a CD or march into a State office and get it, the same potential > harms exist. > > I persoannly think this info is a privacy threat. But if it's legal to > distribute in other forums, the Net should be no different, IMHO. All Net > terrorist hype aside. > I agree. If its available, the net is as good a medium as any. --Deviant You know you've been spending too much time on the computer when your friend misdates a check, and you suggest adding a "++" to fix it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMgt+1DAJap8fyDMVAQHctQf+Mg3pI74FLc9VzfeZoLDUU0DLzM0UYKg/ 7G1HVUXPOS3CRuc40vUTx+1LO/6uGyfDUvZeW/tGEOP0tKAJ9jWZZbrbvs3XBl+G +HPu7f4rJcsLqRLEVW8wGbJ+Z15RjtrJaB/A/QUxFwmz8y6b8XN1uAAb1Myh2fiT XMwHW6L+dGsMIKZpAf018kdktlSLsgY4lkgcMb1b6utZkonX5POSw7DCmThOmFNp gSaL5eKmLRHpYI2SAL48sAXvPD3Yg397/3bApIi7X2EzAlfEttg0lYlt2IMIKNsi R+Zovv+npr/uqU4mTfwCgshHMQTXfMaXeKz8S55nQt1Tsvc6ZOIPPA== =Q2OD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 9 15:08:32 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:08:32 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? Message-ID: <199608091830.LAA08975@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:19 AM 8/9/96 -0600, Anonymous wrote: >jim bell wrote: > >>When supporting plans like GAK ("key escrow") and wiretaps... > > > >>If we allow this fiasco to die without a full analysis, >>particularly in light of the government's repeated assurances >>with regards to search warrants, we will be as incompetent as >>the police were. > >Further, my original question, phoned in anonymously to the FBI, >mailed in anonymously to this list, and asked to the media (I >guess I like wasting my time) has never been either asked or >answered. I will restate it in stronger terms: >"Why the hell, when you have a tape of the perp. saying something, >do you not air it in the middle of a city chock full of people >who could very well know this guy's voice/mannerisms?" Why didn't >the media ask for it, and then give the answer (the fibbieclerk >had no answer at all for me) the FBI gave?? Am I missing something? >We hear 911 tapes ALL THE TIME of various stuff happening. Has the >FBI suddenly become a bunch of civil liberties activists WRT the >privacy of terrorist bombers? >Just asking. >me And, of course, by now a substantial fraction of the people who were in Atlanta for the Olympics are now scattered to the winds, and their memories have dimmed, etc. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 15:08:50 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:08:50 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608091839.LAA25540@toad.com> At 12:26 AM 8/9/96 -0700, daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) wrote: >I say, what we need is a little more abuse. I say, a well-publicized >incident of abuse of the driver's license database can do more to >help the cause of privacy than any amount of intellectually compelling >debate. Perhaps one horrible incident of abuse would ignite enough >public backlash to stop states from selling their databases at the >drop of a hat. Judge Bork doesn't happen to live in Oregon, does he? Publishing his video rental records got Congress to pass a law against private businesses selling that kind of data; perhaps we can embarass the state of Oregon into not selling data that the state forces you to provide. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From pjn at nworks.com Fri Aug 9 15:16:28 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:16:28 +0800 Subject: anarchy cookbook??? Message-ID: In> He blew himself up cooking napalm according to his directions. ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ I hope this was a joke, or you mean: He blew himself up while following his directions to cook napalm. P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... Letterman of Borg - "Ok, Top 10 reasons why resistance is futile:" ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 15:21:17 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:21:17 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. Message-ID: <199608091854.LAA25837@toad.com> At 10:45 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Lucky wrote: >At 21:55 8/8/96, i am not a number! wrote: >>CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central >>f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake retrofit >>How? Their license plates have been photographed. >You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. It's possible today, and probably affordable. If not, it will be in 1-2 years, as Moore's law cranks down processing costs and video technology improves. For this application, they don't have to photograph every car, or read every plate successfully, or do it in real time. The objective is to get lots of drivers to take other routes or mass transit so they don't have to dump all the traffic onto surface streets right around the construction. Besides, this is nice friendly San Francisco. Imagine New York City doing it: Yo! Mr. E. Koch, 1234 E. 89th St. - We saw you takin' the West Side Highway last week. You better stop that as of next Friday. We know where you live. You got a problem wit' that? Rudy. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From ph93szh at brunel.ac.uk Fri Aug 9 15:24:37 1996 From: ph93szh at brunel.ac.uk (S Zaid Hassan) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:24:37 +0800 Subject: cybergangs? Message-ID: <9768.9608091747@molnir.brunel.ac.uk> Okay, so this is a bit Gibsonish but after reading that piece on cybergangs and some of the ecash issues what I wanna know is this: There are no laws in cyberspace right? No one to enforce them as such shall we say? What happens if a group of hackers/crackers/cypherpunks set up shop and started offering their services to the highest bidder? Let's say that the US Government bans strong crypto and attempts to enforce is using the many, conventional, means at its disposal... what happens if the cypherpunks group raises the money to pay a group or individual to hack/destroy/grind to a halt milnet? Or some such government network? Or all of them? How come this hasn't happened yet? Okay maybe not at such a grand scale, but ya know? Hey it's just an idea, Zaid "The wave is already gathering; one day it will wash us away." - Hermann Hesse From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 9 15:37:25 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:37:25 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608091917.MAA11397@mail.pacifier.com> At 08:48 AM 8/9/96 -0700, John F. Fricker wrote: >I am not a great fan of social engineering and regulations. Yet the >legisture in Oregon may get called for a special session to address this >issue and I see this an opportunity for a grander arguement than merely >acccess to the DMV data. And as much as we dislike the presence of the >governments they do indeed exist. Living within their domain limits our >choices to either: complacency through inaction (cynicism et al), attempts >at isolation (back to the land), or taking an active role through voting, >education, civil disobedience or participation in the process (a pox on >party politics! the latter choice is easily the least enticing while civil >disobedience can be truly fun! >g<). Ok so call me a statist and shove me >out the door, but I am not argueing for the existance of a state. It does >currently exist and I am not self-sufficient. But I digress. Of course, in my opinion the "The State currently exists" observation is a problem, but I believe it's a solvable one! >#2) The records industry (for lack of a better term to encompass all >companies that accumulate data on individuals) needs some standards and >guidelines. Or walls and fences. Maybe even bars and a moat! And the sooner >the better. Federally imposed software requirements are not uncommon in >certain industries. It is time for standards for the personal data >maintained by co-operating entities (ie agencies the public co-operates with >such as doctors, the DMV, and so on). Even better would be to simply stop the state from collecting the records in the first place, right? > >#3) The goal is the anonymous citizen. The first step it to secure the data >currently exposed. Can this be done _without_ legislation? Perhaps the better question is, "Can this be done _WITH_ legislation?!?" Legislation, by its very nature, tends to serve the interests of the government first, and possibly some of the citizenry trailing a bit behind. Remember the saying, "When the only tool you have is a hammer, you treat every problem as if it were a nail." "Solving" the problem by legislation inherently tries to convert actions into crimes, or at least punishable activities. Needless to say, it won't be GOVERNMENT people who get jailed or dissuaded. A market and technology-based solution to the problem inherently involves cooperation, rather than confrontation, because the market has no inherent way to coerce people into acting From vin at shore.net Fri Aug 9 15:50:30 1996 From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:50:30 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? Message-ID: . J�ri Kaljundi noted that "Mudge," a fabled hacker long associated with the elite clique "Cult of the Dead Cow," (honest!) had been scheduled to speak on SecurID vulnerabilities at DefCon in Vegas two weeks ago. >>| At Defcon this year they promised to tell about some security >>| flaws in SecurID tokens, anyone know more about that? Adam Shostack primed the pump: >> My understanding is that the guy who was going to give the >>talk had nda difficulties. Vin? Did you make it out? The talk was >>going to be on race conditions, denial of service attacks, and the >>like. Yup. SDTI asked me and their Principal Engineer, John Brainard, to wallow in the delights of Vegas and attend Mudge's scheduled speech at the DefCon hackers' convention. Not knowing that half of the people over 30 attending DefCon would be FBI agents (not undercover; wearing FBI/DefCon IV-embazoned polo shirts, and passing out _lots_ of G-man recruiting literature! No kidding!) the Powers That Be at SDTI selected John and I, from the girded ranks of their employees and sundry consultants, as either the least likely to squander our personal fortunes at craps, or the most likely to fit in among the (little)bit-perverted odd-balls who gather at DefCons. I refuse to speculate as to which (but I think I've finally got the knack of card-counting at blackjack;-) As Cerridwyn Llewyellyn reported, Mudge -- posed and celebrated on page 40-something of last month's WiRed -- told the DefCon audience that SDTI's lawyers were after him, threatening something dire, so he was not going to release his "white paper" on weaknesses in the ACE/SecurID system for several months. Instead, he delivered a talk on s/key vulnerabilities. This was weird, because I *knew* Security Dynamics had neither consulted nor asked their lawyers to do anything about Mudge's speech on SecurID vulnerabilities. It would have been a fool's ploy: silly and counterproductive. John and I took Mudge out for dinner right after that speech. He told us then that he had inadvertently misspoken when he blamed his temporary silence on SDTI's lawyers. The real problem, he said, was with bullying lawyers from two corporate clients he is now under contract to in his day job. (He didn't explain this further, but I understood that Mudge is working for two firms which have access to SDTI plans and trade secrets under non-disclosure agreements. The firms were apparently worried about their liability -- given their promises to SDTI and Mudge's work in their employ. Mudge may want to elaborate on this. Or not.) Mudge is a very sharp guy; a hacker in the old sense of a system maven -- despite his beer-swillin' Dead Cow Cult role-playing. Off stage, he spoke freely about which attack vectors he's been working on, but offered limited detail. (My impression was that when the conflict-of-interest stuff came up, Mudge put aside his analysis of SecurID authentication for awhile... but intends to work on it further, once free of other obligations.) He and SDTI's John Brainard got along well, nattering to each other in machine code (which another DefCon luminary who joined us, *Hobbit*, would ocassionally translate for me.) Mudge is deeply involved in analyzing the ACE client/server code for weakness; he too is also very interested in the F2 algorithm -- which he felt involves too much knowable information as input to the hash -- and, of course (like Shimomura, the self-styled Threat of the West,) Mudge is stolidly pounding away at the SecurID itself to retrieve and cryptoanalyze the algorithm that hashes Current Time and the token's secret key to generate a SecurID token-code. John Brainard -- who wrote the SecurID hash ten years ago -- openly admired Mudge's ingenuity but didn't seem to feel particularly threatened. Mudge and John also talked about various potential high-level protocol attacks on the network infrastructure and how they could possibly be used to isolate a Master ACE/Server from a (backup) Slave -- with an attacker able to both sniff incoming traffic to the Master and replay it to the Slave (after the Slave had been artificially trapped on an isolated subnet by the attacker.) The discussion was out of my league, but I enjoyed watching the vollying back and forth. The whole exchange was fun and reminded me of the healthy relationship hackers in the user community used to have with product designers. My beard is gray. I remember when the lead programmers for the best time-sharing companies used to send a bottle of good booze to anyone who alerted them to security problems in their systems. A good tradition, IMNSHO -- and one which I tried to continue when I picked up the check for our dinner and Mudge's choice of wine. (I'll bill SDTI;-) All the recent effort to bust the decade-old SecurID algorithm and the ACE network protocol seem a little anachronistic, of course. I suppose it's kind of a grand salute to an old security warhorse (and SecurIDs are still the first line of defense in most Fortune 500 companies.) There has been no formal announcement, but -- as J�ri suggested -- I think most of the ACE/SecurID user community expects that both the network protocol and the token's internal algorithm will be upgraded sometime in the very near future. (On a timeline SDTI established several years ago.) And any new ACE protocol will inevitably establish a stateful session for the authentication exchange -- which will make the current generation of race attacks historical novelties. SDTI Engineering (and most likely RSA Labs) have probably been banging away at the new design for a long time. RSA was deeply involved with SDTI long before their recent merger; RSA helped develop the F2 hash that is used in the ACE client/server security protocol. (It's this F2 hash that "Anonymous" is begging some Cypherpunk to steal, reverse-engineer, and publish for everyone to play with. Bad, bad, commercial crypto! Wouldn't want anyone to make money off strong cryptography, would we??) It remains to be seen where the merger of the top OTP firm and the top commercial crypto firm leads us -- but I, among many, hope the widely-installed ACE/Server (with its potent RDBS) will provide the key-management infrastructure that will allow the introduction of enterprise-wide crypto on a scale seen only in the nightmares of the NSA's congressional lobbyists. Mr. Gilmore is not the only one who has been plotting to vastly expand the installed base of strong crypto in the coming year. Suerte, _Vin Vin McLellan +The Privacy Guild+ 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, Ma. 02150 USA Tel: (617) 884-5548 <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 9 16:36:49 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:36:49 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960809154848.0126c108@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, John F. Fricker wrote: > #3) The goal is the anonymous citizen. The first step it to secure the data > currently exposed. Can this be done _without_ legislation? I disagree with this goal. The anonymous consumer/worker, yes; the public has no business knowing what I as an economic actor buy, read, and think. If I choose to participate fully in the political system, though, in ways that go beyond votes and petty contributions to others' campaigns, the public has an interest in my identity and biases. Anonymous voices can and should be heard, and they can and should be influential at times, but they don't get to run for office. -rich From ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us Fri Aug 9 16:37:14 1996 From: ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us (P. J. Ponder) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:37:14 +0800 Subject: John Gilmore on the Radio! Message-ID: Today at lunchtime in the Eastern Time Zone, the radio show Real Computing with John C. Dvorak had John Gilmore as a guest, and Dvorak asked several questions about the US federal case against Phil Zimmerman. Surprising how little Dvorak knew about the issues, especially considering he's a pretty bright guy and up-to-speed with the technology. He asked JG [paraphrasing] - now that the government case against PRZ is dropped, what else is the Electronic Frontier Foundation (of which Gilmore is a board member) taking up as its next 'cause'? The implication was that the 'crypto thing' is settled and we can move on to other issues. This may have been a rebroadcast of an earlier show, I don't know. Gilmore was referred to by Dvorak as the head of the cypherpunks a few times. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 9 16:37:44 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:37:44 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? In-Reply-To: <199608091519.JAA05472@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Message-ID: nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous) writes: > Further, my original question, phoned in anonymously to the FBI, > mailed in anonymously to this list, and asked to the media (I > guess I like wasting my time) has never been either asked or > answered. I will restate it in stronger terms: > "Why the hell, when you have a tape of the perp. saying something, > do you not air it in the middle of a city chock full of people > who could very well know this guy's voice/mannerisms?" Why didn't > the media ask for it, and then give the answer (the fibbieclerk > had no answer at all for me) the FBI gave?? Am I missing something? > We hear 911 tapes ALL THE TIME of various stuff happening. Has the > FBI suddenly become a bunch of civil liberties activists WRT the I noticed it too and had a conjecture that the caller said something politically incorrect which they didn't want aired: like "Fuck Janet Rhyno". --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 9 16:39:28 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:39:28 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A May unit wrote: "bubbleheaded hairspray journalists" ~~~~~~~~~~~~ wrong word. They are truly nothing more than actresses. From sparks at bah.com Fri Aug 9 16:55:52 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:55:52 +0800 Subject: Fw: The Ostrich Security Principle Message-ID: <199608092145.RAA08394@pop1.jmb.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 09 17:42:15 1996 OK Tim, I looked up Ontology.. how did you get your license ? - -----Begin Included Message ----- - ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." - ---- End of forwarded message ---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMguwuOJ+JZd/Y4yVAQE+/wQMDMNJ7XIrI+VkTaNKQDdLkzUT9v8aEQzG x9/8aFFbw5/jVJQjd3TwWjuRut3L+mc+/2GOqJwQHf1z9vakVDSdnMzIKKB68FfP NtzU92MoqHip5D/R37cVACcAnXkoaSKvwy+m+V6Rxk2ffOlLoKLEUd9xK91hNFvs 2WymcjvaLC+MLQ== =owbR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sparks at bah.com Fri Aug 9 17:02:09 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:02:09 +0800 Subject: Pronto Mailer Message-ID: <199608092145.RAA08391@pop1.jmb.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: provos at wserver.physnet.uni-hamburg.de, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 09 17:42:06 1996 I use Pronto Mail also. I just started using it yesterday. I can honestly say that it makes things simpler... no cutting, pasting, decrypting, encrypting...and on and on. It is the sweetest mailer since Ishmail ( UNIX / Linux ). Not even Ishmail did key management and fetching, sending, etc.... I will be able to use Pronto in my effort to proselytize the cause. The only thing I see that will prevent a lot of folks from getting it ( and paying for it ) is the price. $300 US seems a bit steep to some. I am going to pay for it because of the time it saves me. I would like to see a few things added, though. Multiple address books, keyed and non-keyed ( this might speed up the address book or add a search ( I have several hundred members of my firm listed in my Eudora mailer ). I'd also like to see some sort of IMAP address book support ( like Simeon or Z Mail ), These would also be accessable seperately in the interest of spped, since the pubring would be on each users machine. With the C2 option in the NT Resource kit, I'd like an explanation on using Pronto with NT 4. I tried all sorts of things and had no luck after installing.. Pronto kept telling me the pifs were no good, couldn't find keys, etc... None the less, I love it so far.. Just have to get the MC down a bit to pay for it ( That;s why it's a 60 day demo ) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMguwsOJ+JZd/Y4yVAQGeJgQJAU+SB/cl48Jhmu1khb/7p0xG24ruL4cI av4myCELKV2GgOFfX+u48BLwCkTwRNaMIMdzBkNrQYQdofeSO0WrKJoDQVzMLeas IK6OUCI3uELqMjtJs1TK2qrDcSKue9COpbPe4D9MzyieuObZ0CDLXhWgWGmA72Up zFUPMrvd7swEIQ== =c/6c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeremey at forequest.com Fri Aug 9 17:03:38 1996 From: jeremey at forequest.com (Jeremey Barrett) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:03:38 +0800 Subject: Fun with M$ Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Some guy has written an ActiveX control which crashes windoze95... I don't use windoze so can't try it, but if someone else is brave, I'd love to know if it works... Information page with a link to a page which loads the control: http://www.halcyon.com/mclain/ActiveX/ Quote from the page: Exploder is an Active X control which demonstrates security problems with Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Exploder performs a clean shutdown of Win95 and will turn off the power on machines that have a power conservation BIOS (green machines). - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeremey Barrett Senior Software Engineer jeremey at forequest.com The ForeQuest Company http://www.forequest.com/ "less is more." -- Mies van de Rohe. Ken Thompson has an automobile which he helped design. Unlike most automobiles, it has neither speedometer, nor gas gage, nor any of the numerous idiot lights which plague the modern driver. Rather, if the driver makes any mistake, a giant "?" lights up in the center of the dashboard. "The experienced driver", he says, "will usually know what's wrong." -- 'fortune` output -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgujTi/fy+vkqMxNAQFikwP+LbLwibqKcp4FcLncenF44ptcp01j02M8 QwVbx0R+ept5jFea+R5Jhbypy+C2wvLh1hs4fjC0d2lrAQkfqiJxDAu8dblXYejy hS1hmuzflIEcat2p0qbomKDf+Iba2fz2kXtcu5CSsmwvqWwZf9XSFiC0Gx9JJ0Nh c/zVv9GcMIs= =1j1L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hua at chromatic.com Fri Aug 9 17:07:45 1996 From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:07:45 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel carbon-unit-based voice pattern matching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608092154.OAA04813@server1.chromatic.com> > > "Why the hell, when you have a tape of the perp. saying something, > > do you not air it in the middle of a city chock full of people > > who could very well know this guy's voice/mannerisms?" Why didn't > > This is the single best suggestion/question I have heard about this > entire case! It may not be as good of a suggestion as you might think. If the number of false positives are so great that there is no reasonable way for the FBI to go after everyone of them (that is, say, they could not accurately weigh the likelihood of any particular siting as having a reasonable chance of being worthy of investigation), then such a act is worthless. Also, the FBI, no doubt, has voice analysis systems much more capable of detecting subtleties. 100,000 enthusiastic people trying to recognize their friend/relative/co-worker's voice is just not consistently accurate enough to give the FBI good leads while avoiding bad ones. Now, that said, I suppose the FBI could try something like this: Have some randomizing automated test which everyone can call into to test their hearing abilities before they can tell the FBI their possible lead. Well, I take that back. May you test them AFTER they leave info on their lead so that they don't get offended by the testing. Well ... I guess I'll leave the exercise up to the FBI (to make the phone-in more user-friendly). Now what if the FBI had voice detection systems just like the ones used in "Clear and Present Danger"? Now THERE'S a good reason for tapping 1% of every phone switch ... I wonder if the public would mind having a MACHINE do drift net matching on voices on all public phone switches in the U.S. just to find the Olympic bomber ... What if the specifications of that machine were made public and the machine placed under Congressional oversight? (At least members of Congress would never get tapped.) Ern From minow at apple.com Fri Aug 9 17:16:09 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:16:09 +0800 Subject: SecurID In-Reply-To: <9608091601.AA02324@sherry.ny.ubs.com> Message-ID: I've been using SecureID for the better part of a year now and am quite pleased with the way it works. Here are the negatives, though they are not very interesting: -- There is a false rejection rate of around 2-5% (failure to login with my presumably valid SecureID card). This includes modem bobbles and database crashes. It generally is self-correcting. -- Dialup access only. This would prevent me to access my mail server (which is inside the firewall) from telnet. -- Interactive access only; I can't program my home machine to dial in at 5:00 AM to read mail without intervention. -- We have a mixture of direct and 800 number dialups -- this presumably protects against problems unique to a single server. In my case, SecureID is integrated into ARA (Apple Remote Access). Client installation was trivial. I don't know what, if any, link-encryption is incorporated. The user overhead is about 30 seconds per dialup. Martin Minow minow at apple.com >someone at my firm is about to press the securid system down our collective >throats. please point me to the recent thread on this subject, and/or point >me to some url's or the like, or to someone who has some firsthand knowledge >of the pitfalls and/or vulnerbilities of secirid. > >cheers, > -paul > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Aug 9 17:33:14 1996 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:33:14 +0800 Subject: Fw: SafE Mail Corporation Message-ID: <9608092200.AA07686@delfinsd.delfin.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 09 15:09:02 1996 Finally -- a 22 character public key that's "invulnerable to attack." - -----Begin Included Message ----- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:42:56 -0400 From: safemail at ntrnet.net (M.Wagoner (1)) To: law-office at felix.org Cc: FINALLY, SOFTWARE THAT COMPLETELY ENSURES THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF PRIVILEGED ATTORNEY/CLIENT INFORMATION OVER THE INTERNET! 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SafE Mail utilizes a short 22 character public key (invulnerable to attack) which makes exchanging data secure and simple to do. This information security software is the most secure and easiest to use on the market today. I have included some information that describes the features of SafE Mail I think will be of most interest to you. If you would like more information, a copy of our "Frequently Asked Questions", or are interested in obtaining a nominal cost "demo" to evaluate the software yourself, please call us today. Thank you, Randy Estridge SafE Mail Corporation 1-800-252-9938 http://www.sfmc.com SafE Mail FEATURES =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D SafE Mail proprietary encryption and decryption of data, includes virtually any kind of computer generated information: text, video, audio, executable files, databases, spreadsheets, pictures, or any other kind of ASCII or binary files * Superior proprietary compression algorithm for fastest and most cost effective data transmission * Powerful proprietary algorithmic control for error correction during transmission over noisy networks * Public Key distribution algorithm for exchanging presigned encrypted data over open networks * Electronic Signature protocol for exchanging presigned mail * User defined variable level of distortion protection that can be applied when using low quality transmission facilities * Long cryptographic key with a nearly infinite number of output codes * Multiple encryptions for extra security * Universal Secure Envelope format * Internet compatible output format * Easy procedure for use under Windows=AE P.S. Special, introductory pricing is only available this month! Randy Estridge SafE Mail Corporation http://www.sfmc.com 1-800-252-9938 - ---- End of forwarded message ---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgu3Ai1djiVVpb+9AQGeewP/Q4jm/RA5HBm7IK4n6DnaQhiv6uA3OYuc VulJtyBsV00TfcBT1FkNT/8fpr5LjIVb5PWh8WYrsoB912YnwDLi2H052jNpP1lv DJQxq2oAQAB3VHqUFqXLVJb21iAKcaBNthObsQm1Fe6NJdH4xnNF2xX0aIBwlqNi X6xGS24cJAk= =IzPn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Peter.C.M.M.Terporten at Inter.NL.net Fri Aug 9 17:33:23 1996 From: Peter.C.M.M.Terporten at Inter.NL.net (Peter C.M.M. Terporten) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:33:23 +0800 Subject: Suit filed to enjoin crypto provisions of the ITAR Message-ID: <199608092155.XAA28984@altrade.nijmegen.inter.nl.net> I am just such a simpe foreigner trying to understand this. I thought that the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) had in the meantime been replaced with the Defense Trade Regulations (TDR). If not, is this still in the planning? And is the latest ITAR text somewhere on the net? TIA, Peter Advokatenkantoor Terporten Computer law Peter C.M.M. Terporten Media- and information law Paulus Potterlaan 28 e-mail: terporte at inter.nl.net NL-3723 EZ Bilthoven tel 31-30-2251892 The Netherlands fax 31-30-2251889 *** Waar Recht En Techniek Samenkomen *** From fty at mcnc.org Fri Aug 9 17:34:34 1996 From: fty at mcnc.org (Frank E. Terhaar-Yonkers) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:34:34 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. Message-ID: <199608092229.SAA12419@robin.mcnc.org> It's been doable and afforadable for years. 7 years ago when I lived in Knoxville TN there was(still is?) a firm there called Perceptics. One of their products was an imaging system to OCR license plates. I understood the system was/is in use or being tested at US border crossings. >Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 11:56:34 -0700 Bill Stewart wrote: >At 10:45 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Lucky wrote: >>At 21:55 8/8/96, i am not a number! wrote: >>>CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central >>>f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake retrofit >>>How? Their license plates have been photographed. > >>You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. > >It's possible today, and probably affordable. If not, it will be in 1-2 years, >as Moore's law cranks down processing costs and video technology improves. >For this application, they don't have to photograph every car, or read every >plate successfully, or do it in real time. The objective is to get lots of >drivers to take other routes or mass transit so they don't have to dump all >the traffic onto surface streets right around the construction. > >Besides, this is nice friendly San Francisco. Imagine New York City doing it: > Yo! Mr. E. Koch, 1234 E. 89th St. - > We saw you takin' the West Side Highway last week. > You better stop that as of next Friday. > We know where you live. > You got a problem wit' that? > Rudy. > ># Thanks; Bill ># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com ># Defuse Authority! > \\\\////\\\\////\\\\\////\\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\////\\\\ Frank Terhaar-Yonkers, Manager High Performance Computing and Communications Research MCNC PO Box 12889 3021 Cornwallis Road Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 27709-2889 fty at mcnc.org voice (919)248-1417 FAX (919)248-1455 http://www.mcnc.org/hpcc.html From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Fri Aug 9 17:45:27 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:45:27 +0800 Subject: Electronic Cash System Based On The Representation Message-ID: <199608092225.SAA26589@mccannerick-bh.mccann.com> Interesting paper I had not heard of, but was recently referred to... http://www.cwi.nl/~brands/cash.html Electronic Cash System Based On The Representation Problem Stefan Brands CWI P.O. Box 4079, 1009 AB Amsterdam The Netherlands e-mail: brands at cwi.nl Abstract: We present a new on-line electronic cash system based on a problem, called the representation problem, of which little use has been made in literature thus far. Our system is the first to be based entirely on discrete logarithms. Using the representation problem as a basic concept, some techniques are introduced that enable us to construct protocols for withdrawal and payment that do not use the cut and choose methodology of earlier systems. As a consequence, our cash system is much more efficient in both computation and communication complexity than previously proposed systems. Another important aspect of our system concerns its provability . Contrary to previously proposed systems, its correctness can be mathematically proven to a very great extent. Specifically , if we make one plausible assumption concerning a single hash-function, the ability to break the system seems to imply that one can break the Diffie-Hellman problem. Our system offers a number of extensions that are hard to achieve in previously known systems. In our opinion the most interesting of these is that the entire cash system (including all the extensions) can be incorporated straight forwardly in a setting based on wallets with observers, which has the important advantage that double- spending can be prevented in the \014rst place, rather than detecting the identity of a double-spender after the fact. In particular, it can be incorporated even under the most stringent requirements conceivable about the privacy of the user, which seems to b e impossible to do with previously proposed systems. Another benefit of our system is that framing attempts by a bank have negligible probability of success (independent of computing power) by a simple mechanism from within the system, which is something that p previous solutions lack entirely . Furthermore, the basic cash system can be extended to checks, multi-show cash and divisibility , while retaining its computational efficiency. Although in this paper we only make use of the representation problem in groups of prime order, similar intractable problems hold in RSA-groups (with computational equivalence to facto ring and computing RSA- roots). We discuss how one can use these problems to construct an efficient cash system with security related to factoring or computation of RSA-roots, in an analogous way to the discrete log based system. Finally , we discuss a decision problem (the decision variant of the Diffie-Hellman problem) that is strongly related to undeniable signatures, which to our knowledge has never been stated in literature and of which we do not know whether it is in BPP. A p roof of its status would be of interest to discrete log based cryptography in general. Using the representation problem, we show in the appendix how to batch the confirmation protocol of undeniable signatures such that polynomially many undeniable signatures can be verified in four moves. AMS Subject Classification (1991) : 94A60 CR Subject Classification (1991) : D.4.6 Keywords and Phrases : Cryptography , Electronic Cash, Representation Problem _______________________ Regards, It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do not dare that they are difficult. -Seneca Joseph Reagle http://rpcp.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle at mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E From alano at teleport.com Fri Aug 9 17:49:36 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:49:36 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960809204258.00aaa7b8@mail.teleport.com> At 09:24 AM 8/9/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >It might be fun to make the database open for a couple weeks, without a >caveat about logging, and then publish the logs. Allow reverse lookups, >i.e., who looked up my record. A nice little dragnet of people who are >interested in invading your privacy. This is impractical for one reason. In most cases it will show the address of the service provider, but will report nothing beyond that. You will just see which IP address you were assigned when you logged on. The logs would be true is some sense, flase in some sense and meaningless in most sense. >For the near-medium term, I am resigned to the fact that government is going >to collect personal information, and that it is going to leak out. I'm just >interested in full disclosure of the leaks, and who is benefiting from them. This brings up an interesting point. Is it poosible to obtain the list of all the individuals/corporations that have purchaced the list of DMV information and post *THAT* information to the net. I think that people would be surprised just who uses that information and for what... --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From alano at teleport.com Fri Aug 9 17:53:44 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:53:44 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960809204211.00ff5090@mail.teleport.com> At 08:23 AM 8/9/96 -0700, i am not a number! wrote: >O, and I think they're talking more about putting up cameras at some >troubling intersections to take pictures of cars running red-lights. > >And cameras on transit vehicles (buses primarily). They already have cameras on Tri-Met busses in Portland Oregon. (Not all of them, yet... But many of them have two cameras. One at the front and one at the middle.) It occured during one of the media inspired panics about people with guns on busses. >Gee, I am starting to feel so warm and safe! Remember: A Paranoid constabulary is an effiecient constabulary. (Just because you got caught in the crossfire of a cop shooting at a suspected jay walker does not make it any less effiecient.) Support your local police for a more efficient police state! --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 9 18:24:11 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:24:11 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel carbon-unit-based voice pattern matching Message-ID: At 9:54 PM 8/9/96, Ernest Hua wrote: >Also, the FBI, no doubt, has voice analysis systems much more >capable of detecting subtleties. 100,000 enthusiastic people But the FBI presumably has no data base of voices to compare the voice on the 911 tape to! They can have the most sophisticated voice analysis system in the world and it useless, except in comparing the voice to previously-recorded samples. (This is presumably how the NSA's capabilities are used, as they have the voice patterns of Boris Yeltsin, Yassir Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Bob Dole and other previously-recorded voices. Plus, they can use COMINT at will outside the U.S. (and maybe in the U.S....) and can acquire new voice patterns for their libraries.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 9 18:32:34 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:32:34 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel carbon-unit-based voice pattern matching Message-ID: <199608092330.QAA26402@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:54 PM 8/9/96 -0700, Ernest Hua wrote: >Now what if the FBI had voice detection systems just like the ones >used in "Clear and Present Danger"? Now THERE'S a good reason for >tapping 1% of every phone switch ... > >I wonder if the public would mind having a MACHINE do drift net >matching on voices on all public phone switches in the U.S. just to >find the Olympic bomber ... What if the specifications of that >machine were made public and the machine placed under Congressional >oversight? (At least members of Congress would never get tapped.) Voiceprints used to be doable only with sophisticated, specialized equipment. Presumably, they would be doable today with "only" a PC and soundcard, along with some software. This raises an interesting question: Would it be possible to modify speech to remove the identifiable characteristics which came from the speaker, and replace them with those of some other person. In other words, could somebody fake a bomb threat using a recording which has been processed to sound "exactly" like some famous person whose voice you can analyze? Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From bluemoon at mindvox.com Fri Aug 9 18:36:30 1996 From: bluemoon at mindvox.com (platinum) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:36:30 +0800 Subject: Waiting Game on wiretapping and crypto, from HotWired In-Reply-To: Message-ID: can anyone tell me why i got nine copies of this message? Rose I am Rose my eyes are blue / I am Rose and who are you I am Rose and when I sing / I am Rose like anything --Gertrude Stein bluemoon at MINDVOX.com From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 9 19:09:12 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:09:12 +0800 Subject: John Gilmore on the Radio! Message-ID: <199608092254.PAA24182@mail.pacifier.com> At 04:38 PM 8/9/96 -0400, P. J. Ponder wrote: >Today at lunchtime in the Eastern Time Zone, the radio show Real >Computing with John C. Dvorak had John Gilmore as a guest, >Gilmore was referred to by Dvorak as the head of the cypherpunks a few >times. What was that old saying, "Like herding cats"? Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 9 19:17:34 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:17:34 +0800 Subject: John Gilmore on the Radio! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, P. J. Ponder wrote: > Gilmore was referred to by Dvorak as the head of the cypherpunks a few > times. Did he mention any other body parts? (Hey, shouldn't there be a SF Bay Area cpunks meeting tomorrow? I'm otherwise engaged, but I'd have expected to see an announcement of what I'm missing.) -rich From jeremey at forequest.com Fri Aug 9 19:38:42 1996 From: jeremey at forequest.com (Jeremey Barrett) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:38:42 +0800 Subject: Fw: SafE Mail Corporation In-Reply-To: <9608092200.AA07686@delfinsd.delfin.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:42:56 -0400 > From: safemail at ntrnet.net (M.Wagoner (1)) > To: law-office at felix.org > Cc: > > FINALLY, SOFTWARE THAT COMPLETELY ENSURES THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF > PRIVILEGED ATTORNEY/CLIENT INFORMATION OVER THE INTERNET! > > If you are at all concerned about the security of documents that > your firm regularly sends via e-mail, or about the confidentiality, > integrity and size of documents currently affecting your > transmission speeds, please read the following.......... > > SafE Mail=AE is a new, proprietary software product that provides > information security through encryption, compression, error > correction, INTERNET compatibility and, it is compatible with ANY > electronic mailing system. [ blah blah blah blah blah.... ] Not this again... - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeremey Barrett Senior Software Engineer jeremey at forequest.com The ForeQuest Company http://www.forequest.com/ "less is more." -- Mies van de Rohe. Ken Thompson has an automobile which he helped design. Unlike most automobiles, it has neither speedometer, nor gas gage, nor any of the numerous idiot lights which plague the modern driver. Rather, if the driver makes any mistake, a giant "?" lights up in the center of the dashboard. "The experienced driver", he says, "will usually know what's wrong." -- 'fortune` output -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgvWii/fy+vkqMxNAQEPLwP8DF+sIbGTqiyDi+i04eWjnNjOiXn3iWsq 9ypWK1TLA/FVU23VFIO5jJ58pT3HQwk2fo//VWmkVbdPl4rMbBxEt7/19xL++lmH lE97b6fcOmGaToFOUejZizJWs1QVGqZ0LI9DArRrfjL6QfRgyb6c5yHEWbw26XT7 QwX92V7haG4= =XY8w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From serw30 at laf.cioe.com Fri Aug 9 19:39:05 1996 From: serw30 at laf.cioe.com (Eric Wilson) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:39:05 +0800 Subject: cybergangs? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960809230950.006ae3d0@gibson.cioe.com> At 06:47 PM 8/9/96 +0100, you wrote: > > > > Okay, so this is a bit Gibsonish but after reading that piece on cybergangs > and some of the ecash issues what I wanna know is this: > > There are no laws in cyberspace right? No one to enforce them as such > shall we say? What happens if a group of hackers/crackers/cypherpunks > set up shop and started offering their services to the highest bidder? > > Let's say that the US Government bans strong crypto and attempts to > enforce is using the many, conventional, means at its disposal... > what happens if the cypherpunks group raises the money to pay a group > or individual to hack/destroy/grind to a halt milnet? Or some such > government network? Or all of them? > > How come this hasn't happened yet? Okay maybe not at such a grand scale, > but ya know? > > Hey it's just an idea, > > Zaid > > >"The wave is already gathering; one day it will wash us away." - Hermann Hesse > A kind of Cybermilitia! Can we still wear green uniforms and camouflage face paint? Eric From mirele at xmission.com Fri Aug 9 20:00:16 1996 From: mirele at xmission.com (Deana Holmes) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:00:16 +0800 Subject: Another thing the Net is being blamed for... Message-ID: <199608100049.SAA05625@xmission.xmission.com> Yet another thing that we're being blamed for. FYI, the temple ceremony has been reproduced many times since it was first exposed in the 1840s. The most recent revision (1990) was kept secret for only a short time before notorious former members got ahold of a tape and transcript of the ceremony. (I have a good idea of how they got it.) As far as I can tell, it didn't actually make it on to the Net until about 1994. This particular Mormon churchman (Russell Ballard) gave a speech a year or so ago warning Mormons in vague terms about the evils of the Internet. I suppose this is part of it. ===== >From this morning's Rolley&Wells column in the Salt Lake Tribune (without permission): "During a press tour this week of the LDS [Mormon] Church's new Mount Timpanogos Temple in American Fork, a member of the news media asked why a writtem copy of the temple ceremony was not given to members with temple recommends so they could study it in the privacy of their homes. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles informed the reporter that there was no need. A church member had 'broken the covenant' -- taped the ceremony, transcribed it, and put it on the Internet for all to read." Deana M. Holmes April 1996 poster child for clueless $cientology litigiousness alt.religion.scientology archivist since 2/95 mirele at xmission.com From roger at coelacanth.com Fri Aug 9 20:00:55 1996 From: roger at coelacanth.com (Roger Williams) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:00:55 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. In-Reply-To: <199608091854.LAA25837@toad.com> Message-ID: >>>>> Bill Stewart writes: > At 10:45 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Lucky wrote: >> You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. > It's possible today, and probably affordable. It's been reasonably affordable for several years. Video number plate reading is routinely used around here for gathering statistics on the points of origin of commuter traffic, for highway planning purposes. (The numbers are looked up in the Registry database to find where each commuter is likely to have come from.) -- Roger Williams finger me for my PGP public key Coelacanth Engineering consulting & turnkey product development Middleborough, MA wireless * DSP-based instrumentation * ATE tel +1 508 947-8049 * fax +1 508 947-9118 * http://www.coelacanth.com/ From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 9 20:03:24 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:03:24 +0800 Subject: Fw: SafE Mail Corporation In-Reply-To: <9608092200.AA07686@delfinsd.delfin.com> Message-ID: I trust their error was corrected on the relevant list? I notice they've "sweetened" their "hacker" deal for cracking their software. Now it's an all-expense-paid trip to North Carolina plus about $400. Still not worth it, unless you're just pissed off. -rich From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Fri Aug 9 20:12:00 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:12:00 +0800 Subject: Fun with M$ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Jeremey Barrett wrote: > Information page with a link to a page which loads the control: > > http://www.halcyon.com/mclain/ActiveX/ > > Quote from the page: > > Exploder is an Active X control which demonstrates security problems with > Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Exploder performs a clean shutdown of > Win95 and will turn off the power on machines that have a power > conservation BIOS (green machines). I love it! I'll add it to the win95netbugs FAQ tomorrow. -rich From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 9 20:15:08 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:15:08 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel carbon-unit-based voice pattern matching In-Reply-To: <199608092330.QAA26402@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > Would it be possible to modify speech to remove the identifiable > characteristics which came from the speaker, and replace them > with those of some other person. Equipment exists that can remove the microtremors associated with stress, thus defeating voice stress analysis technology. Modeling someone elses voice print would seem to be of little value, if possible at all. However, one could use voice-synthesis software to phone in a bomb threat. (The cops would probably arrest Stephen Hawkings on the basis of the voice print.) S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 9 20:51:27 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:51:27 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel carbon-unit-based voice pattern matching Message-ID: <199608100145.SAA03557@mail.pacifier.com> At 06:09 PM 8/9/96 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > >> Would it be possible to modify speech to remove the identifiable >> characteristics which came from the speaker, and replace them >> with those of some other person. > >Equipment exists that can remove the microtremors associated with >stress, thus defeating voice stress analysis technology. I wonder if such equipment is used on CSPAN and CSPAN-2? (And that's a serious question!) There is a relatively famous neurologist named Oliver Sacks who has written a series of books concerning odd brain disorders among his and other patients. In one book (maybe it was, "The Man who mistook his wife for a hat") he describes a scene where a group of patients with the same ailment (maybe it was called "aphasia", but it's been a few years...) were watching a speech by Ronald Reagan. As I recall, people with this ailment can't understand what's being said to them, but they CAN tell whether the person speaking is telling the truth. (or, at least, BELIEVES he's telling the truth...) All the patients laughed at Reagan's speech. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi Fri Aug 9 21:31:07 1996 From: morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi (Joel Morgan) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 12:31:07 +0800 Subject: open diplomatic pouch Message-ID: <199608100006.DAA27633@keilin.helsinki.fi> According to the Economist (20 July p. 28) the Danish ombudsman has ruled that correspondence between the foreign ministry and embassies must be available to the public. -- ===================================================================== Joel.Morgan at Helsinki.FI http://blues.helsinki.fi/~morgan "Over the mountains there are mountains." -- Chang-rae Lee ===================================================================== From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 9 22:11:18 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:11:18 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? Message-ID: <199608100120.SAA02197@mail.pacifier.com> At 07:10 AM 8/9/96 +0000, jonathon wrote: >On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > >> Okay, I'll admit that I _never_ believed that judges actually follow the >> standards they claim to. But many other people of those who are more > > I know of a very good way to ensure that judges do follow > the standards that they claim to follow. > > It works even better at making politicians keep all the > election promises the make. > > Has one drawback --- it reduces the number of people willing > to carry out those two functions to virtually zero. OTOH, that > probably would be a very good thing. > That's odd...I know of one also! B^) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 9 22:32:21 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:32:21 +0800 Subject: John Gilmore on the Radio! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Rich Graves asked: > (Hey, shouldn't there be a SF Bay Area cpunks meeting tomorrow? Cypherpunks operate on Parisian time. Every August many of us flee the Bay Area or are too sluggish to go to meetings. (Now parties are usually a different matter.) S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From harka at nycmetro.com Fri Aug 9 23:44:24 1996 From: harka at nycmetro.com (harka at nycmetro.com) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:44:24 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel ca Message-ID: * Carbons sent to: In: tcmay at got.net -=> Quoting In:tcmay at got.net to Harka <=- In> But the FBI presumably has no data base of voices to compare the voice In> on the 911 tape to! They can have the most sophisticated voice analysis In> system in the world and it useless, except in comparing the voice to In> previously-recorded samples. In> (This is presumably how the NSA's capabilities are used, as they have In> the voice patterns of Boris Yeltsin, Yassir Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Bob In> Dole and other previously-recorded voices. Plus, they can use COMINT at In> will outside the U.S. (and maybe in the U.S....) and can acquire new In> voice patterns for their libraries.) Here the technical progresses made in eaves-dropping technology come in really handy. Eaves-dropping on, let's say, apartments is these days rather trivial and a great way of collecting voice samples of 'suspects'. That the FBI doesn't have a voice database or at least access to one, I seriously doubt. Most of the technologically advanced countries use voice-recognition already to monitor phone traffic. The US does, Germany does, the UK.... The system functions 'vacuum-cleaner-like' and reacts to voice patterns (individual voices) and trigger words. If a trigger word is said, the entire conversation will be recorded and the telephone number on either end determined for later review. There are a few books out there, that deal with that kind of thing. Unfortunately, I only remember a german one: "The RAF Phantom", written by three journalists. But an Altavista might bring something up too... Harka ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 10 00:01:23 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:01:23 +0800 Subject: Data Bases of Voiceprints? Message-ID: At 3:26 AM 8/10/96, harka at nycmetro.com wrote: > * Carbons sent to: In: tcmay at got.net (BTW, I read the list, so no need to send carbons to me, or carbon-based units. or carbon-based citizen-units.) >Here the technical progresses made in eaves-dropping technology come in >really handy. Eaves-dropping on, let's say, apartments is these days >rather trivial and a great way of collecting voice samples of 'suspects'. >That the FBI doesn't have a voice database or at least access to one, I >seriously doubt. Most of the technologically advanced countries use >voice-recognition already to monitor phone traffic. The US does, Germany >does, the UK.... I'm skeptical. To paraphrase Dr. Strangelove, what use is such a data base if cops and agents don't know it exists? (Granted, useful in a few exceptional cases, even if field offices and agents are unaware that it exists, but not useful for many cases.) If such a voiceprint database, obtained surreptitiously through National Technical Means (tm), were to exist and be known to exist by investigators, word of its existence would leak out quickly enough. This is just my opinion, of course. But, as the Martian watchers say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Do you _know_, that such a data base exists? (A data base of, say, more than 5% of all the adults in the U.S., in a data base that is searchable by voice print match to samples submitted by FBI or other law enforcement agents.) >The system functions 'vacuum-cleaner-like' and reacts to voice patterns >(individual voices) and trigger words. If a trigger word is said, the >entire conversation will be recorded and the telephone number on either >end determined for later review. >There are a few books out there, that deal with that kind of thing. >Unfortunately, I only remember a german one: "The RAF Phantom", written by >three journalists. But an Altavista might bring something up too... Sure, we all know--or should know--what the _capabilities_ are, technically. But capability !=! actuality. I doubt such a data base of voice prints exists. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From dsmith at prairienet.org Sat Aug 10 00:11:52 1996 From: dsmith at prairienet.org (David E. Smith) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:11:52 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608100428.XAA18766@bluestem.prairienet.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 09 23:30:57 1996 > I believe that in California, you may have a PO Box on your > driver's license, but the state has to have your "real" address > in its records. As noted, some people forget to update this > information when they move, and others list their lawyer's > address with the state. Presumably, that should satisfy the > legal justifications for requiring an address. In Missouri, that's all they wanted (a PO Box). That's perfectly copacetic by them. If you want to register for voting - since we have Motor Voter - they of course need a real address. And the post office's requirements for getting a PO Box are nearly nonexistent. > > More important is ensuring that all the addresses that the > > state has on you are the same. The preference seems to be > > to have the same address as is on one's checks. > > That may be the preference, but I just use my e-mail address on > my checks. If more is required to cut a deal, I can choose to > add more information by hand if I am willing to do so to do the > transaction. I like that - email on cheques. Wish I'd thought of that before I ordered my last batch. > S a n d y > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ dave - ---- David E. Smith POB 324 Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702 dsmith at prairienet.org http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith send mail of 'send pgp-key' subject for my PGP public key "Heard a lot of talk about this Jesus, a man of love, a man of strength; but what a man was two thousand years ago means nothing at all to me today ... " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Automagically signed with Pronto Secure for Windows. iQEVAwUBMgwQmDVTwUKWHSsJAQGN1Af+LqxaOOIo/ZfMOLbUxRa09PLO5vArlZyW sKbngGrr3ZPVVxIkrrhaBTPPQ2VFkzcrx+ixUZa36+tdf0F+Q8oZBbrRy+NBFqMr D8x/5cHbXQ/1u7dZuHfDx9s0AFeijb2oNZ7XdmuoSb6evS2xuwknx15zLdHqt1LO AiJgw86Bdwa1eYBYrCLt0JtvVXA8zB5CTZs/ZawpOszlcUwbPptOFH0S6fhGwolC 4zA2qE6nyOiD3efl6Q3TPnlUcusFj3ICa8bvzz3DgRIGJMN/pWHU+A4NmtL/NOoj MGZfHGDiI27YOF6p+9p+pZ93HJuVJQOd+1US3hXBriM1lrVfNqMUlw== =oBZP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pstira at escape.com Sat Aug 10 00:27:54 1996 From: pstira at escape.com (pstira at escape.com) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:27:54 +0800 Subject: DMV/Public record data on CDROM Message-ID: <199608100338.XAA11082@escape.com> There are several state's DMV data (or other public record data such as Voter Registration) available on CD-ROM, with DOS search engines. I have the demos for some of these programs on http://www.escape.com/~pstira/pi Oregon is not the only place you can obtain this type of information. From reece at taz.nceye.net Sat Aug 10 00:34:06 1996 From: reece at taz.nceye.net (Bryan Reece) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:34:06 +0800 Subject: Fw: SafE Mail Corporation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608100358.XAA08898@taz.nceye.net> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:24:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremey Barrett MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Precedence: bulk > Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:42:56 -0400 > From: safemail at ntrnet.net (M.Wagoner (1)) > To: law-office at felix.org > Cc: > > FINALLY, SOFTWARE THAT COMPLETELY ENSURES THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF > PRIVILEGED ATTORNEY/CLIENT INFORMATION OVER THE INTERNET! > [snipped harder] [ blah blah blah blah blah.... ] Not this again... Afraid so. But they do challenge hackers to break it (the old `here's some ciphertext, doesn't this look secure?' thing). They also offer a `free demo version', but due to federal law they can't make it available over the net so they do this: [from the order form on their web site:] | copy "EndUser" 2+ S/H SubTotal | DOS DEMO - version ______ x _FREE_ _FREE_ __$40_ =__________ ^^^ How nice of them to offer this free trial. And if you crack the sample message, you *get a free copy of the weak software*. Neat, huh? From adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 10 00:42:42 1996 From: adamsc at io-online.com (Chris Adams) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:42:42 +0800 Subject: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Message-ID: <199608100456.VAA05213@toad.com> On 9 Aug 96 01:54:52 -0800, deviant at pooh-corner.com wrote: >> If you accept that, then doesn't that make writing crypto software for >> any Unix platform *even more* of a waste of time? Because last time I >> checked, there were way more Macs on mom-and-pop's desks than Unix >> machines, counting *all* vendors. >Pardon my French, but you mus be fucking stupid or somehing. How many >universities use UNIX platforms? How many companies use UNIX platforms? >Sun, DEC, and SGI don't stay in buisiness by building cheap Windows boxes >ya know. There are 13948 _registered_ LINUX machines, not to mention the >unregistered ones. Don't tell me that Cray's were designed to run MacOS >or Windows 95. UNIX isn' NEARLY as dead as Apple is. I think the numbers have escaped you: there are far more Macs than Unix machines. It doesn't matter that Unix has a larger market with universities or Internet weenies, merely that overall more people use Macs than Unix. Also, FWIW some of those Unix machines are Macs running A/UX (Apple's Unix). One last thought: Sun, Dec, SGI, etc all make RISC Unix machines. Apple is the largest RISC vendor on the planet... Given that the Amiga is still around (and may be revived) despite the fact that the Mac:Amiga ratio is probably the same as the PC:Mac ratio, I'd say that it's quite likely Apple will stay around. Inspite of the hype about loses, Apple posted tens-of-millions-of-dollars profits last quarter - rare for a dead company... They still cannot meet the demand for the PowerBooks - probably the best notebook available at any cost. # Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! # Automatically receive my resume or PGPKEY by sending email with a subject # of 'send PGPKEY' or 'send resume'. Capitalization counts so be careful! # Web site: http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp From ichudov at algebra.com Sat Aug 10 00:43:44 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:43:44 +0800 Subject: cybergangs? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960809230950.006ae3d0@gibson.cioe.com> Message-ID: <199608100514.AAA32117@manifold.algebra.com> Eric Wilson wrote: > > How come this hasn't happened yet? Okay maybe not at such a grand scale, > > but ya know? > A kind of Cybermilitia! Can we still wear green uniforms and camouflage face > paint? Go to news.* groups. You will see all kinds of people there. - Igor. From minow at apple.com Sat Aug 10 02:11:42 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 17:11:42 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel carbon-unit-based voice pattern matching In-Reply-To: <199608092330.QAA26402@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: Voiceprints can be done on a modern PC with a D/A sound input. The software is, essentially, FFT, various kinds of digital filtering and windowing, and display. Linguists (my "real" profession) have a generally low opinion of voiceprint analysis. For an excellent introduction to the technology, read Alexander Solzhenitsyn's "First Circle." (The linguistics is accurate.) Martin Minow minow at apple.com From prz at ACM.ORG Sat Aug 10 02:14:21 1996 From: prz at ACM.ORG (Philip Zimmermann) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 17:14:21 +0800 Subject: New web page for pgp.com Message-ID: <199608100716.HAA01383@maalox> I just wanted to let folks know that my new company has a new web page up at www.pgp.com. Also, we are hiring a lot of people. If you would like to work for PGP Inc, contact us. We need engineers, cryptographers, marketing people, and people with many other skills. If you are interested, send email to our CEO, Tom Steding, at tsteding at pgp.com. Or call us at 415 631-1747. --Philip Zimmermann prz at pgp.com From pjn at nworks.com Sat Aug 10 04:52:42 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 19:52:42 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Message-ID: >>CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central >>f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake retrofit >>How? Their license plates have been photographed. >You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. In> It's possible today, and probably affordable. If not, it will be in In> 1-2 years, as Moore's law cranks down processing costs and video In> technology improves. For this application, they don't have to In> photograph every car, or read every plate successfully, or do it in In> real time. The objective is to get lots of drivers to take other In> routes or mass transit so they don't have to dump all the traffic onto In> surface streets right around the construction. Wasn't there something about these cameras in the latest 2600? (BTW, there was also alot of information on encryption in the issue, too.) P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... TagX Pro of Borg - "Your tagline will be assimilated." ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From an366601 at anon.penet.fi Sat Aug 10 05:26:12 1996 From: an366601 at anon.penet.fi (** CRAM **) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:26:12 +0800 Subject: editorial: information havenots already have not Message-ID: <9608101016.AA24621@anon.penet.fi> --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From liberty at gate.net Sat Aug 10 05:48:43 1996 From: liberty at gate.net (Jim Ray) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:48:43 +0800 Subject: Nyms I'd vote for Message-ID: <199608100948.FAA123578@osceola.gate.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Rich Graves wrote: >On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, John F. Fricker wrote: > >> #3) The goal is the anonymous citizen. The first step it to secure >> #the data >> currently exposed. Can this be done _without_ legislation? > >I disagree with this goal. The anonymous consumer/worker, yes; the >public has no business knowing what I as an economic actor buy, read, >and think. If I choose to participate fully in the political system, >though, in ways that go beyond votes and petty contributions to >others' campaigns, the public has an interest in my identity and >biases. Anonymous voices can and should be heard, and they can and >should be influential at times, but they don't get to run for office. [Rant -- you touched a sore spot here, Rich.] And I disagree with Rich, at least in regard to the present system. My "representative," is Ileanna Ros Lehtinen (R.). No Democrats have chosen to run against her, and the Demopublican's beloved ballot laws prevent me from running and actually getting on the ballot. I would GLADLY vote for either Lucky Green or Black Unicorn if these nyms were running against this statist woman, but I am not given that (or any other) choice by the state. She has already "won" the "election," and thus will NOT APPEAR on the ballot. The state of Florida assumes that I would rather not vote for None Of The Above [NOTA], and my state is, once again, wrong. The Florida Supreme Court is carefully ignoring the Constitution(s) they all swore to uphold in these cases, and I am trying to use any medium I can to trumpet this fact, so that solutions like Mr. Bell's (yes, Jim, I know you have one for this, too) don't start sounding better and better. :( [End Rant] P.S. Lucky & Uni: don't worry, I plan to [try to] write in "Jim Ray." JMR Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy "Ray's corrolary to Murphy's Law: 'You will be spared NOTHING.'" -- P. C. Ray (my dad) Defeat the Duopoly! Vote "NOTA," not Slick/Dull in November. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray Coming soon, the "Pennies For Perot" page. Keep billionaires off welfare! ___________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgxaBW1lp8bpvW01AQGRIQP+OZebKXfGgsKTdzIzld1vomnVqnB4nQ3L C0iDcTPqsEuEN/39nb+BinccCvjM3vvdxTVOYhs9QS1Gdf4TwkUE8+k3oWc1X7hy AtLcemGGQ+pwyMwfqd6gAboLM9oeg/QeRtaa+MXSdrl8WU/KCTWxeIQTH1/LPKLq 9KiTlgHH+2U= =tBZy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From shamrock at netcom.com Sat Aug 10 07:04:56 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 22:04:56 +0800 Subject: Fw: SafE Mail Corporation Message-ID: At 23:58 8/9/96, Bryan Reece wrote: >Afraid so. But they do challenge hackers to break it (the old `here's >some ciphertext, doesn't this look secure?' thing). They also offer a >`free demo version', but due to federal law they can't make it >available over the net so they do this: We showed their software to be worthless a few months ago. I am surprised they are still selling it. They are opening themselves up for some very nasty litigation. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From jya at pipeline.com Sat Aug 10 07:14:04 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 22:14:04 +0800 Subject: RLR_lsl Message-ID: <199608101223.MAA26370@pipe2.t2.usa.pipeline.com> 8-10-96, NYP: Peter Steinfels, religion columnist, compares the "religious right" with the "life-style left," and examines how the perjoratives are employed to oversimplify and stigmatize -- an example of the pitfall A. Mehta has critiqued on Cypherpunks: "binary thinking." The real opposite number to the religious right is the life-style left, which includes people who are religious and people who are not. It includes some welfare-state liberals and some anti-government libertarians. What unites the life-style left is the belief that In regard to the widest possible range of basic choices about how to live, the state should refrain from exerting its influence. The more basic the question, the less the role of the state. ----- http://jya.com/rlrlsl.txt (7 kb) RLR_lsl From shamrock at netcom.com Sat Aug 10 07:15:06 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 22:15:06 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate photo'ed. Message-ID: At 11:56 8/9/96, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 10:45 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Lucky wrote: >>At 21:55 8/8/96, i am not a number! wrote: >>>CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the central >>>f'way in SF will have information mailed to them regarding the quake retrofit >>>How? Their license plates have been photographed. > >>You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. > >It's possible today, and probably affordable. If not, it will be in 1-2 years, I know that there are video cameras on the freeway. I also know that reading license plate must be trivial, since I saw such systems abroad years ago. In fact, in Europe, where cameras are ubiquitous in inner cities, face recognition is the latest fad. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From se7en at dis.org Sat Aug 10 07:18:19 1996 From: se7en at dis.org (se7en) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 22:18:19 +0800 Subject: Email Bombing Message-ID: Two messages were sent from my account to dc-stuff having me taking credit for email bombs against certain people, namely: Jeff Slaton, Captain Crunch and the Cyberangels. I first became aware of these emails after receiving a message from Emmanuel Goldstein asking about who was doing this, as his email box was being slaughtered at that very moment. I *DID NOT* email bomb anyone. This is going to be hard to believe since those mentioned as targets of annihilation were people I have fucked with in the past very openly on dc-stuff. This combined with the current "blame everything on se7en" attitude makes it very hard for anyone to take this professed innocence seriously. I called my SysAdmin this morning at 4:00 AM PST and he ran through the logs of my account. The emails did in fact come from my account, but, the logs show unusual activity which can't be accounted for by either side. Fortunately, the logs show that the actual bombing was not done from my account. I was on IRC for several hours talking to trusted friends while this all happened. Whoever penetrated my account knew what the hell they were doing in respects to log modification. A re-install is in process as well as a tightening of overall site security, especially my account. I am not really upset other than my email account was used to take credit for something I didn't do. My account could have been used for more nefarious purposes; it wasn't. Veterans of dc-stuff know I am not afraid to take credit for the things I do. I did not do this. But I will also not lose any sleep over the Spam King being hit. Captain Crunch: well, after all is said and done, he is harmless. Same with the CyberAngels: they can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk. I have proved that many times. In the end, they are harmless also. Hitting them wouldn't accomplish anything tangible. At this time, the initial mail headers show the attack was launched via sun.dmci.com from either a netcom.com or an io.* domain. No doubt the account used to launch the attack was hacked. The identity of the bomber may never be known. All I know is that it wasn't me. Take it for what's it worth. Time will vindicate me, as time always does. I just hope it's sooner than later. Hold your judgement of me until such time. And while dis.org has been recently compromised, I wouldn't be so quick to blame this on the same people. I have had intermediary contact with Galf sufficient for me to believe he made his point and has moved on, having not been responsible for this latest wave of email impersonation. Recent logs have shown that a kind of "open season" has been declared upon dis.org by every newbie out there that has heard of recent events. I say newbie because none of the recent attempts to gain access have proved successful. I used to laugh about email bombing. But when it happens and you are caught up in it, it is not funny. If any of you out there think it is, wait until you find tens of thousands of messages in your inbox and an incoming rate of 750 per minute, every minute. Scripts will not save you. se7en From rah at shipwright.com Sat Aug 10 08:23:33 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 23:23:33 +0800 Subject: cryptography course at WPI Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 19:19:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Christof Paar To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu Subject: cryptography course at WPI Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: bounce-dcsb at ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Christof Paar Status: U (I hope this mail is appropriate for this mailing list :) This announcment is probably mainly of interest to people in the greater Boston area. I will offer a graduate course in crypto and data security in the fall at Worcester Polytechnic Institute. The focus group are on-campus students as well as people in industry. Last year, I taught exactly the same course in industry and it was a big success. I am sure that it serves industry needs very well. I will be gone for one week but promise to answer all questions about the course immediately when I return. Regards, Christof Paar PS: There will be an advanced crypto course in the spring. ________________________________________________ Christof Paar Assistant Professor ECE Department Worcester Polytechnic Institute 100 Institute Road Worcester, MA 01609 email: christof at ece.wpi.edu www: http://ee.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html tel: (508) 831 5061 fax: (508) 831 5491 ============================================================================ WPI EE 578/CS 578: CRYPTOGRAPHY AND DATA SECURITY Fall '96, Monday, 5:30-8:15 pm INTRODUCTION It is well known that we are in the midst of a shift towards an information society. The upcoming generation of digital information systems will provide services such as: - wireless LAN and WAN computer networks - multi-media services (e.g., high quality video-on-demand) - smart cards (e.g., for network identification of electronic purse) - electronic banking/digital commerce These and other new information-based applications will have far reaching consequences. As this happens, security aspects of communication systems are of growing commercial and public interest. Unfortunately, these aspects have been widely underestimated or ignored in the past. Today, however, there is high demand for expertise and high quality products in the field of information security and cryptography. WPI's graduate course EE 578/CS 578 provides a solid and broad foundation in the area of cryptography and data security. After taking the course students should have an overview of state-of-the-art cryptography. In industry, they should be able to carefully choose and design a security scheme for a given application. The course also serves as an introduction for students who are interested in pursuing research in cryptography. There are several opportunities for Master's and PhD theses in the field of cryptography. COURSE DESCRIPTION This course gives a comprehensive introduction into the field of cryptography and data security. We begin with the introduction of the concepts of data security. Different attacks on cryptographic systems are classified. Some pseudo-random generators are introduced. The concepts of public and private key cryptography is developed. As important representatives for secret key schemes, DES, IDEA, and other private key algorithms are described. The public key schemes RSA, ElGamal, and elliptic curve crypto systems are developed. As important tools for authentication and integrity, digital signatures and hash functions are introduced. Advanced protocols for key distribution in networks are developed. Identification schemes are treated as advanced topics. Some mathematical algorithms for attacking cryptographic schemes are discussed. Application examples will include a protocol for security in a LAN and identification with smart cards. Special consideration will be given to schemes which are relevant for network environments. For all schemes, implementation aspects and up-to-date security estimations will be discussed. PREREQUISITES Working knowledge of ``C''. An interest in discrete mathematics and algorithms is highly desirable. TEXTBOOK D.R. Stinson, Cryptography: Theory and Practice. CRC Press, 1995 SYLLABUS EE 578/CS 578 An important part of the course is an independent project. The project topic can freely be chosen by the student. Possible topics include (but are not limited to) implementation of a real-size cryptographic algorithm or protocol, a literature study on new cryptographic schemes or on legal aspects of cryptography, or implementation of an algorithm for attacking a cryptographic scheme. WEEK 1: Introduction: Principals of cryptography. Classical algorithms. Attacks on cryptographic systems. WEEK 2: Stream ciphers and pseudo-random generators. Some information theoretical results on cryptography. WEEK 3: Private key cryptography: The Data Encryption Standard DES. Brief history, function and performance. WEEK 4: Private key cryptography: Recent results on successful attacks on DES. Operation modes of symmetric ciphers. IDEA and other alternatives to DES. WEEK 5: Public key cryptography: Introduction. Some Number Theory and Algebra. WEEK 6: Public key cryptography: RSA. Function and security. Recent results on successful attacks on RSA. WEEK 7: Midterm exam. WEEK 8: Public key cryptography: The discrete logarithm problem. ElGamal crypto system. Function and security. Security estimations. WEEK 9: Public key cryptography: Elliptic curve systems. Mathematical background, function and security. WEEK 10: Digital Signatures: The ElGamal signature scheme. Message Authentication Codes (MAC). WEEK 11: Hash functions: Principals. Block cipher based hash functions. Protocols: Attacks against protocols, protocols for privacy, authentication, and integrity. WEEK 12: Key distribution in networks: Private key approaches, certificates, and authenticated key agreement. WEEK 13: Identification schemes: Challenge-and-response protocols. The Schnorr identification scheme for smart cards. WEEK 14: Final exam. ****************************************************************************** Christof Paar http://ee.wpi.edu/People/faculty/cxp.html Assistant Professor email: christof at ece.wpi.edu ECE Department phone: (508) 831 5061 Worcester Polytechnic Institute fax: (508) 831 5491 100 Institute Road Worcester, MA 01609, USA ****************************************************************************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo at ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at ai.mit.edu --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From Scottauge at aol.com Sat Aug 10 08:42:59 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 23:42:59 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <960810081520_381433332@emout13.mail.aol.com> I was watched CBS reports a couple nights ago about how all these blue collar and now white collar jobs are going across seas. How programmers in India are taking jobs away from us, programmers and engineerss, the people pioneering them. (Actually I know some Indian based programmers and they are worked very hard, even being locked in a building until they meet some deadline. This is not conducive to quality work, just enough to get ya back home to family.) (Hmmm, the Pioneer Crypto-System, I think I like that name and it has a specific purpose....) So I was thinking, boy am I glad I am in a rather esoteric part of software development where there is not much knowledge and how we, in this particular field, have an unwritten rule about sharing knowledge with others - even those trying to get a foot into the door. (I'm a contractor and there is a supply and demand thing going on - I like low supply and high demand for my particular skill sets.) White collar jobs are basically knowledge worker jobs, and if one does not know how to do something, one cannot do it. So a possible way to protect jobs is to protect the knowledge on how to do them. >From who could be an interesting question. Obviously some companies would be interested in sharing the knowledge amongst the non-US tax paying population of the world, thereby reducing income and taxes collected and thus needing to raise taxes once again to pay for "rights" and entitlements the government "gives" away to the citizens and non-citizens of this country.... but, I am beginning to rant and rave. Perhaps there is a larger picture in the world that the cyperpunks mailing list is missing. That cryptography is not just for personal privacy, but could involve job security also - as a matter of fact, the income base for this whole country. In essence, knowledge is money, cuz that is what we usually want for it now-a-days. "Oh you want me to do that for you, hmmmm, lets see...." Maybe a discussion could happen on protection of knowledge in a socio-economic realm. From peter.allan at aeat.co.uk Sat Aug 10 09:19:19 1996 From: peter.allan at aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 00:19:19 +0800 Subject: secret sharing protocol: FLUFFED Message-ID: <9608101310.AA24007@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk> OK, before you rush to tell me... Generating random shares doesn't work. Different selections of 10 out of 15 shareholders will arrive at different secrets. I've got a fix in mind, and I'll chew it over for at least a week before it reaches a keyboard. Peter Allan peter.allan at aeat.co.uk From aba at atlas.ex.ac.uk Sat Aug 10 09:24:03 1996 From: aba at atlas.ex.ac.uk (aba at atlas.ex.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 00:24:03 +0800 Subject: cpunks CDROM suggestions anyone? Message-ID: <24700.9608101234@exe.dcs.exeter.ac.uk> I'm downloading things to put on the CDROM that Remo Pini is organising. (I'm doing the downloading because I have better net connect than Remo, I'll simply forward my downloads on a gold CD; it's Remo's CD, he will add things, structure, re-organise, junk sections etc). If there is anything that anyone thinks is a must have please let me know, or email it to me. (PGP keys on keyserver, either encrypt to me (0x556A4A67) or Remo Pini (0x33F9B4E9), if it's encrypted to Remo, I'll just forward it on the CD for Remo's consideration). Please check that it is not already on the ftp site below. So far I am part way through a complete dump of (including all the mirrors): ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/crypt here's the top level directory: drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 1024 Jan 30 1996 LUC drwxr-xr-x 2 510 root 3072 Aug 10 09:31 PGP -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1579 Sep 2 1994 README drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Jan 30 1996 SKIP drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 3072 Jan 30 1996 applied-crypto drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 2048 Feb 2 1996 bignum drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 10752 Jul 12 09:13 code drwxr-xr-x 27 root root 1024 Jun 19 23:01 cypherpunks drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jan 30 1996 docs drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 1536 Jul 29 23:02 ftp.demon-PGP drwxr-xr-x 13 root root 512 Aug 7 23:15 ftp.funet.fi-crypto drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Aug 6 23:10 ftp.informatik-PGP drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Apr 18 23:02 ftp.informatik-disk# drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Jan 30 1996 ftp.mantis-cryptography drwxr-xr-x 8 root root 512 Jun 4 23:28 ftp.ox.ac.uk drwxr-xr-x 5 root root 512 Aug 1 08:28 ftp.pgp.net drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 512 Jun 5 23:47 ftp.psy-Crypto drwxr-xr-x 2 root staff 512 Apr 1 09:21 kerberos drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Jan 30 1996 libdes drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Mar 23 15:37 math drwxr-xr-x 9 root root 512 Jan 30 1996 rpub.cl.msu.edu drwxr-xr-x 15 root root 1024 Jan 30 1996 rsa.com (Amazing collection they have btw, the cypherpunks mirror seems to be very up-to-date, some files just three days old... what is this, automated ITAR violation?) 118Mb and counting... I'll be doing this today (and tomorrow if it takes that long), and hopefully blowing a gold CD monday. (Before anyone notices I've clobbered 600Mb of disk space, hopefully). Adam Key for user ID: Adam Back 1024-bit key, Key ID 556A4A67, created 1993/06/08 -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2i mQCNAiwUXUEAAAEEAJnWEHE3juLAyMnEt3hrID3t8tblJvJPfoPz4Plg+2a5y4HA TonXBomkhm8hrRu1umruUUaeW1mxIbpvP413a2JyU7pdyfyoFVpWW5iT9pXYOgSW 65d+5GWe4g4PLrSbJZPBFIezd8xddnx5+5hbRk1K6UpfReQuOynIuJ1VakpnAAUT tBxBZGFtIEJhY2sgPGFiYUBkY3MuZXguYWMudWs+iQCVAgUQMC4WlX47g+7S34A9 AQGJ3wP9Fwcooqg1/3MYFrfbMoqGydE60ypaCXBIM8Zypqhx+64ap8FhkANqW1jx ltQMC7ZHhPiWMpNtWEGWcWFnqytyVIvGv8nuBGmiUrPJnMPWAsHTwl2tJ5WpYdPf xQRLfN5eWrjW8Ps5fQHKziBrE0HAK9FcuZ51fSBH4ulmd/2kO9+JARUDBRAv4EaG sVcwSRahJGUBARF3CACOs/Z1IpyKJqLswf979RbvfpCzi4r2vuzKdfFE+NBV7x0m m13v3Eldf/5Z5WByZ36SQjxUhIxqMdaVQafaS5oiQZrmy31K6IyAJxQwdPNZ+pAd AeASm9q1IjYIb0+As6QWdePYP9jRrHESHkDgmJANnAcU+OL9pbrqjdwIYPW1rvpI 58VCiCvQ2v/A9Lq+R4opwQ3rz4lX9/7qDnWfBe2pcaorQXAuXLSGEba/H4HUKvIr OnW3jcQzK2lebxKRDduwFOMTnrcpnRVLn21NSukYsOU1WZ4valwIFGUt88hcO8Ki f0liCzFqfvfbLPdtW/hqS/v5ukuI+y017xb3H8vWiQCVAwUQL9gNKSnIuJ1Vakpn AQHH6AP/T7dwXid03U7UM2/QzU+y6F4kHrGBuvJcyJewWbEb16ItkMngjzXP47kx gZygR4MWXsyQlvE2inSYzRJ3L+6ftaPvX8JsvVCll7JIejfmNGZYSWw9E/vPi/ls aa+pN3WqPxnzpwr8PL6b8w1fZZ47antgdZlOXgGO+hRbWV7zPcc= =iFuA -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Key for user ID: Remo Pini 2048-bit key, Key ID 33F9B4E9, created 1996/07/14 -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzHpRlsAAAEIANgw4sEL9idlZxO8UBYPluxSXI5tkDSpGAc5EfxeGsrnesEs hnfhT7uQfr2M7mdY3BIvOVGj672m+1c0Bv4jO6E56uUaElS5uaf/rpd0lRdKNwnv zokSprnUEOnXy8ZgtOqws97/I4J7gkvjhu9QJGj2CnHduQ4De1Q63kwVHuySJWvX ecPBpV8XYrYkXumPJ6L/aBnnc/mT0ZVtKszoh/IHTq3dub/cWzShLBasmcIsIjDe ZjAoxjGkN5t1fSpuUWIkzv0rIOdBNZaEYmVnhj6Q8BkrEep+3KsycJsJi3dr0Pk8 n/lPu8fD9VnpO2uMRFQVBx4vYCMkEWHLmzP5tOkABRG0GFJlbW8gUGluaSA8cnBA cnBpbmkuY29tPokBFQMFEDHpRlsRYcubM/m06QEBgwcIAI24HElAY2JED5PJ78ct R46RNWjMGQ5phP6ugE/xZzeW5zscHZChu1r8cdf+usl/qrTDPazYhcIfgiNwovdl ofvt/X5vDvlFMFqvlXB6O8x09eGWXjfS/5Wo9O4wPSEPv66CGHQ0q8pZsxtboyNH +eeYxqhSA03MDg5iWx5kakT2ShRv21oCwEZBTN8XOO4hRnfamIvOt5F8v3ypJZli w7xM398Dl0fATmNSVFiJp+l/c/+uNFLlyBU9Dp/m1w2nXXVmbVtTSJN0p4cZZ4WB 1FsNhH8yj+JURr2OtqKeZLDQz88bIiw/nawJB8mvNAr6bml5GxgCi91f9l6xYeb5 ryQ= =UhcC -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From gary at systemics.com Sat Aug 10 10:16:48 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 01:16:48 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: <199608101504.RAA03459@internal-mail.systemics.com> Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases BY GILES WHITTELL AND NIGEL HAWKES IT COULD be the end of the car chase as we know it. With the automotive equivalent of a stun gun, science fiction is coming to the aid of law enforcement. A high-powered electrical device under development at the Pentagon's Army Research Laboratory in Adelphi, Maryland, is to be tested by police and border patrol agents and could be in use by next year. The car stopper works by focusing an intense electromagnetic charge on the electronic systems that manage most modern engines, disabling them and paralysing the car. In the jargon of its inventors, the 150 kilovolt charge is a nemp, or non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse. Contractors are bidding to produce a police version. Very precisely directed beams are required, but even then there will be problems. A pulse powerful enough to disable an engine at any reasonable range would also be likely to disrupt communications, damage television and radio sets, disable computers and even stop heart pacemakers. There is also the danger of loss of control when a car is being driven at high speed. Counter-measures would include using old-fashioned engines with no electronics, or perhaps surrounding the most delicate components with shielding. The best might be to get hold of one of the stun guns and use it to disable pursuing police vehicles. Original article at http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/timnwsnws01022.html?1060389 Three questions come to mind: Will old fashioned engines be outlawed? Will the "stun guns" be outlawed? Will susceptible electronic systems become mandatory? (and if so, why not just put a remote control switch in all cars?) Gary From adam at homeport.org Sat Aug 10 10:56:17 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 01:56:17 +0800 Subject: SecurID In-Reply-To: <9608091601.AA02324@sherry.ny.ubs.com> Message-ID: <199608101711.MAA25776@homeport.org> Paul J. Bell wrote: | someone at my firm is about to press the securid system down our collective | throats. please point me to the recent thread on this subject, and/or point | me to some url's or the like, or to someone who has some firsthand knowledge | of the pitfalls and/or vulnerbilities of secirid. www.l0pht.com/~mudge/skey_white_paper.html has many attacks which will work on securid as well as s/key. The software is slow. The Ace/Server calculates expected values of information by running stuff through des & f2. This is slow. It also encrypts the logs, which can be slow. I've found that a sparc 2 can die under the load of 2 people running sdlogmon, one running sdadmin, and 2 or 3 people trying to authenticate. (This seems to be bad design, since the Sparc2 has hardware des in it, which they don't take advantage of. The software is not the most bug free. I'll flame at length about the fact that you can't get source to fix the bugs yourselves. I looked into hacking in a new des library (shared libraries are great sometimes) to fix the slowness problem, but without source it turned out to be more effort than buying a faster machine. You're stuck with their hardware. With some other systems, that use open standards, and you might be able to switch card vendors. With SD, you must buy new cards from them every three years. (SD claims that their cards have a much higher failure rate after three years, and that this is a feature.) You're stuck with their software. SD libraries must be on every machine that they authenticate for. You can't bugfix those libraries, even if you replace things like sdshell (an analouge of skeysh). (sdshell, incidentally, munges wtmp on solaris machines because it doesn't use the right library calls.) This also means that you can't run on unusual machines, like a BeBox. There are of course more fundamental things, like the fixed length authentication code, the lack of peer review on the hash algorithims, and the lack of ongoing authentication. Also, I have a few cryptographic attacks on the system which I hope to present at Crypto's rump session, and I'll put on the web afterwards. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From adam at homeport.org Sat Aug 10 11:18:23 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:18:23 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608101729.MAA25805@homeport.org> Vin McLellan wrote: | John and I took Mudge out for dinner right after that speech. He | told us then that he had inadvertently misspoken when he blamed his | temporary silence on SDTI's lawyers. The real problem, he said, was with | bullying lawyers from two corporate clients he is now under contract to in | his day job. | Mudge is deeply involved in analyzing the ACE client/server code | for weakness; he too is also very interested in the F2 algorithm -- which | he felt involves too much knowable information as input to the hash -- and, | of course (like Shimomura, the self-styled Threat of the West,) Mudge is | stolidly pounding away at the SecurID itself to retrieve and cryptoanalyze | the algorithm that hashes Current Time and the token's secret key to | generate a SecurID token-code. | All the recent effort to bust the decade-old SecurID algorithm and | the ACE network protocol seem a little anachronistic, of course. I suppose | it's kind of a grand salute to an old security warhorse (and SecurIDs are | still the first line of defense in most Fortune 500 companies.) There has | been no formal announcement, but -- as J=FCri suggested -- I think most of | the ACE/SecurID user community expects that both the network protocol and | the token's internal algorithm will be upgraded sometime in the very near | future. (On a timeline SDTI established several years ago.) And any new | ACE protocol will inevitably establish a stateful session for the | authentication exchange -- which will make the current generation of race | attacks historical novelties. I'm not sure I buy this claim. The problem of syncronising multiple geographically seperate servers is tough. Its actually easier with challenge-response tokens, since you can simply have servers issue different challenges when they lose contact. (Mudge has a clever similar hack for the current version of securids.) | SDTI Engineering (and most likely RSA Labs) have probably been | banging away at the new design for a long time. RSA was deeply involved | with SDTI long before their recent merger; RSA helped develop the F2 hash | that is used in the ACE client/server security protocol. (It's this F2 | hash that "Anonymous" is begging some Cypherpunk to steal, | reverse-engineer, and publish for everyone to play with. Bad, bad, | commercial crypto! Wouldn't want anyone to make money off strong | cryptography, would we??) No, I (possibly unlike anonymous) want lots of people to make shitloads of money of strong crypto. I intend to do so. But strong crypto is published crypto, not trade secrets. SDTI should be in the business of selling the best code and most sturdy cards to work with their protocols, which should be publically open to review. I can't confirm my attacks without knowing F2*, and without knowing if the attacks work, I'm reluctant to publish. So, I think I'll publish based on what SDTI has published, which may or may not be correct. (I have told Mark Warner and Chris McNeil (?) of SDTI about the attacks, and will discuss their responses. *I'm not the one who asked for F2 to be published. I have told many people about my attacks, and its concievable that someone else found the same things. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 10 11:19:05 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:19:05 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: At 12:15 PM 8/10/96, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: >I was watched CBS reports a couple nights ago about how all these blue collar >and now white collar jobs are going across seas. > >How programmers in India are taking jobs away from us, programmers and >engineerss, the people pioneering them. (Actually I know some Indian based >programmers and they are worked very hard, even being locked in a building >until they meet some deadline. This is not conducive to quality work, just >enough to get ya back home to family.) Where do I begin? First, what does "taking jobs away from us" mean? That we own these jobs? And who is "us"? And as for locking people in buildings until they meet a goal, I'd say that's a pretty fair description of Silicon Valley start-ups. :-} >White collar jobs are basically knowledge worker jobs, and if one does not >know how to do something, one cannot do it. > >So a possible way to protect jobs is to protect the knowledge on how to do >them. This kind of protection did not work 150-200 years ago, when the "Colonists" figured out to make fabric in mills and how to mechanize factories--they ended up "stealing" the industry the Brits thought they had sewn up. Life goes on. Essentially all of the technologies we talk about on this list work toward erasing national boundaries, much as Singapore and the U.S. might find this distasteful. >>From who could be an interesting question. Obviously some companies would be >interested in sharing the knowledge amongst the non-US tax paying population >of the world, thereby reducing income and taxes collected and thus needing to >raise taxes once again to pay for "rights" and entitlements the government >"gives" away to the citizens and non-citizens of this country.... but, I am >beginning to rant and rave. Indeed you are. I would be interested in hearing a more coherent argument for your case, though. >Perhaps there is a larger picture in the world that the cyperpunks mailing >list is missing. That cryptography is not just for personal privacy, but >could involve job security also - as a matter of fact, the income base for >this whole country. Given that our list is international, with active contributors from Sweden, India, Germany, Cyberia, and even Singapore, I rather doubt many of them see strong crytography, anonymous remailers, denationalized money, and crypto anarchy as a means of propping up the government or the economy of the United States of America. >In essence, knowledge is money, cuz that is what we usually want for it >now-a-days. "Oh you want me to do that for you, hmmmm, lets see...." > >Maybe a discussion could happen on protection of knowledge in a >socio-economic realm. ????? --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From janke at unixg.ubc.ca Sat Aug 10 11:19:05 1996 From: janke at unixg.ubc.ca (janke at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:19:05 +0800 Subject: The BBS PRNG Message-ID: <199608101630.JAA00353@clouds.heaven.org> Is the BBS PRNG covered by any patents anywhere? How about the probabilistic encryption public-key cryptosystem? If anyone has a BBS PRNG working on a 486 could they please send me a the clock frequency and bytes/sec they can generate for some common moduli: 512, 1024, and 2048, say. I am close to having an implementation which will run at 500 bytes/sec on a 486 DX/2 with a 1024 bit modulus and am not sure if that is competitively fast or not. From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Sat Aug 10 11:59:46 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:59:46 +0800 Subject: Chemistry question please .. Message-ID: <199608101553.IAA10751@jobe.shell.portal.com> Is there such a chemical compound as putracine ( maybe not correctly spelled ) which emulates the extreme odor of rotting corpses ? If so where can I find out how to make it ? From nobody at REPLAY.COM Sat Aug 10 12:08:52 1996 From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:08:52 +0800 Subject: testAnguilla Censors taxBomber ..... ?? Message-ID: <199608101716.TAA05459@basement.replay.com> As of immediately, the "taxBomber's Site & Internet Offshore Center" has been pulled by our Anguilla provider and will remain inaccessible for a few days. This is the work of some journalist hacks who did a major job of character assassination by claiming that we (and our provider) were involved in selling fake passports. This tactics isn't exactly new or particularly original: The Argentine press pulled a similar stunt in April, and again our provider was pressurized to cut us off from the Web without notice. Needless to say, we have NEVER EVER dealt in one single fake passport, nor have we ever offered, sold or brokered any forged, stolen or "lost" documents. Nor is there any need to do so, if you can get the real thing absolutely legally. But of course, this is a political rather than a legal issue - we were, and still are, too successful for Big Brother's liking: on our site, ordinary people (i.e. no govt. or intelligence agency personnel) got loads of free information on *legally* saving taxes, protecting their assets and reffectivel guarding their privacy. While we were and still are a commercial operation, we always made a point of being as educative and topically exhaustive as our resources would permit. But now, it seems, little Anguilla is getting "worried about its international reputation". Well, they are right, though with a vengeance: the reputation they have most certainly lost as of today is that being of one of the world's last truly liberal tax and data havens ... Now for the good news: we will set up a provisional site elsewhere soon and will announce it here on Usenet. Still - if anyone knows of an operational site provider *outside* US and EU jurisdiction, please drop us a line. Your support would be greatly appreciated and full credits given, if you so wish. We will probably either set up a worldwide network of fallback and mirror sites or continue our work in a new, truly innovative way to effectively counter any censorship and dependency on site providers. Until then, you can (still) email us at: pt at taxbomber.com or post your request (users permitting) to "alt.privacy", which we will be scanning regularly. Sorry for the inconvenience - hope to see you again soon! the taxBomber From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Sat Aug 10 12:25:14 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:25:14 +0800 Subject: Chemistry question please .. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960810173024.00610fe8@vertexgroup.com> At 08:53 AM 8/10/96 -0700, you wrote: >Is there such a chemical compound as putracine ( maybe not correctly spelled ) which emulates the extreme odor of rotting corpses ? If so where can I find out how to make it ? > > Why make putracine when you can just buy it? You would be amazed at what you can order from chemical supply companies. But I would recommend muriatic acid instead as it is more persistant -- a couple drops will last for months (sources say). --j From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 10 12:25:15 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:25:15 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <199608101720.KAA04252@dns2.noc.best.net> At 08:15 AM 8/10/96 -0400, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > I was watched CBS reports a couple nights ago about how all these blue collar > and now white collar jobs are going across seas. > > How programmers in India are taking jobs away from us, programmers and > engineerss, the people pioneering them. Indian engineers typically get one tenth or less of what European programmers get. Many companies, for example Informix, have campuses here and there across the USA, a campus in India, and several campuses in Europe. These campuses are linked by private televideo connections, private voice mail systems, and the internet. So theoretically a programmer in India should be much the same to them as a programmer anywhere else. Why should they care where he lives. Yet these companies continually spend vast sums of money on politicians, lawyers, and perhaps bureaucrats, in order to get their engineers out of India, so that they can pay them more than ten times as much in some foreign country. Informix has facilities in the US that are staffed mostly by Indians. Why did it not leave these teams in India, where they would cost less than a tenth as much? Clearly therefore, the same man is more than ten times as valuable to them when he is not in India. Since the communications are pretty much the same wherever he is located, what makes the difference? The power of the Indian government over that man and his work makes the difference. That man is poor because he is more subject to the power of the state, which values him no more than any other expendable slave, than he is contractually subject to those who value what he can do. Crypto relevance? When the crypto economy gets going, and government interference in the exchange of specialized labor becomes less effective, we can expect to see a radical rise in the standard of living. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Aug 10 12:29:19 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:29:19 +0800 Subject: Chemistry question please .. Message-ID: <199608101736.KAA02222@mail.pacifier.com> At 08:53 AM 8/10/96 -0700, anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: >Is there such a chemical compound as putracine ( maybe not correctly spelled ) which emulates the extreme odor of rotting corpses ? Yes. The proper spelling is putrescine. There's also another one called "cadaverine." And yet another called "skatole." ("scatology") >If so where can I find out how to make it ? Not on cypherpunks. If you want to know more, communicate with me directly. Use a penet-like remailer if you want... Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From tn0s+ at andrew.cmu.edu Sat Aug 10 12:33:25 1996 From: tn0s+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Timothy Lawrence Nali) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:33:25 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases In-Reply-To: <199608101504.RAA03459@internal-mail.systemics.com> Message-ID: Excerpts from internet.cypherpunks: 10-Aug-96 Police prepare stunning end.. by Gary Howland at systemics.c [stuff about police wanting a new "stun gun" that can disable a car's electrical systems deleted] > Three questions come to mind: > > Will old fashioned engines be outlawed? > Will the "stun guns" be outlawed? > Will susceptible electronic systems become mandatory? > (and if so, why not just put a remote control switch in all cars?) That last one may already be true. I don't know about automotive electronic systems, but there's a nice sticker on the back of my computer that states the following: This device complies with the FCC, part 15 rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: 1) This device may not cause harmful interference. 2) This device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation. And as for remote controls in all cars, that's not as far fetched as one may think. Watch for this in the form of car alarm/security systems. Imagine the following scenrio: 1) You just noticed that your car is stolen. 2) You call the XXX security company to report your car as stolen. 3) The company beams down a signal by satellite/pager/cell-phone/etc. telling the car's security systems that the car has been stolen. 4) This signal instructs the car to disable itself (shut down the engine, lock the doors, etc.) and, via a GPS module and built-in cell-phone/pager/etc., transmit it's coordinates. 5) The car is recovered and everyone is happy. Of course, once such systems are widespread, the XXX security company will be "encouraged" to cooperate with local police and send that shut-down signal to any car the police tell them to. _____________________________________________________________________________ Tim Nali \ "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of tn0s at andrew.cmu.edu \ the dreams" -Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 10 13:28:35 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:28:35 +0800 Subject: Data Havens in Anguilla About to End? Message-ID: At 5:16 PM 8/10/96, Anonymous wrote: >As of immediately, the "taxBomber's Site & Internet Offshore Center" >has been pulled by our Anguilla provider and will remain inaccessible >for a few days. > >This is the work of some journalist hacks who did a major job of >character assassination by claiming that we (and our provider) >were involved in selling fake passports. "Pulled by our Anguilla provider." This says it all about the probable viability of nominally offshore providers. (I assume this is Vince Cates' site, though I haven't doublechecked...he's the only Anguilla provider of similar sites I know of. I certainly mean no criticism of Vince, if it was indeed his site. My comments are analogous to what we might say about a particular remailer site going down, even if we don't criticize the site operator for removing his remailer.) >But now, it seems, little Anguilla is getting "worried about its >international reputation". > >Well, they are right, though with a vengeance: the reputation they >have most certainly lost as of today is that being of one of the >world's last truly liberal tax and data havens ... I'm not an expert on offshort tax and data havens, but *any* country can be pressured by larger countries, and even by the glare of publicity. If a country derives very little revenue from "permitting" some service, and the costs (they believe) are much greater than the revenues, they will likely act. Thus, the negatives of allowing offshore data havens in Anguilla may easily exceed the few thousand dollars (or whatever) they get in taxes and fees (whatever they might be) from Vince and his customers. Longterm, I've never believed there is much safety in locating in *any* physical country. (By this I mean advertising and making it clear that one is in Country X, said to be "friendly" to tax avoiders, data havens, money laundering, etc. Policies can and do change overnight. Corrupt governments are, well, corrupt, and will change tunes if another piper pays them enough.) The case in Switzerland, with banking, is quite a bit different, with huge deposits and huge fees from their financial services. Even so, Switzerland has continually yielded more ground to tax collectors and various pressure groups from large nations. I'd guess that Vince has had a fun time in the Carribbean, but that he'll be closing up shop sometime soon. Once some services are yanked, confidence is lost. The interesting question will be whether the U.S. authorities and especially the Internal Revenue Service will put pressure on him if he chooses to return to the U.S. (Assuming this was Vince's service that is. But even if it wasn't, pressure on another service means pressure on all Aguillan services.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From zachb at netcom.com Sat Aug 10 14:03:11 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Zach Babayco) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:03:11 +0800 Subject: Cybergangs? In-Reply-To: <01I81T5ESZKS9JD3MN@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, E. ALLEN SMITH wrote: > > >CYBERGANGS > >The head of the gang task force for the Arizona Department of Public Safety > >reports that a Web site established in Detroit offers a how-to guide for > >gangster wannabes and is urging gang members everywhere to unite under its > >umbrella to form the first cyberspace gang. The official says: "Now it's > >in your home, your living room, your den... Unfortunately, these guys can > >talk about anything they want and there's nothing law enforcement can do > >about it." (Atlanta Journal-Constitution 8 Aug 96 F3) > > Umm... yes, it's called free speech. While organizational ability > might be a matter for concern, somehow I doubt that having them on the net > will do any real damage... being on a computer that mine is connected to hardly > puts them "in [my] home," even if my computer at home were connected to a phone > line. Bloody law enforcement paranoids... > -Allen > Besides, its not at all threatening. Actually, more on the stupid side. All it is right now is a several pages of trash-talk and a few links. Hardly a threat to life as we know it. The URL, for anyone whos interested, is http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/3149 (across town from my page, thankfully :) Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Aug 10 14:19:09 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:19:09 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: <199608101912.MAA05720@mail.pacifier.com> At 01:30 PM 8/10/96 -0400, Timothy Lawrence Nali wrote: >Excerpts from internet.cypherpunks: 10-Aug-96 Police prepare stunning >end.. by Gary Howland at systemics.c > >[stuff about police wanting a new "stun gun" that can disable a car's >electrical systems deleted] > >1) You just noticed that your car is stolen. >2) You call the XXX security company to report your car as stolen. >3) The company beams down a signal by satellite/pager/cell-phone/etc. > telling the car's security systems that the car has been stolen. >4) This signal instructs the car to disable itself (shut down the engine, > lock the doors, etc.) and, via a GPS module and built-in > cell-phone/pager/etc., transmit it's coordinates. >5) The car is recovered and everyone is happy. > >Of course, once such systems are widespread, the XXX security company >will be "encouraged" to cooperate with local police and send that >shut-down signal to any car the police tell them to. "Car-Key-Escrow"? Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From sameer at c2.net Sat Aug 10 14:50:04 1996 From: sameer at c2.net (sameer) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:50:04 +0800 Subject: Data Havens in Anguilla About to End? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608101956.MAA02623@atropos.c2.org> > "Pulled by our Anguilla provider." Note that the taxbomber site is moving to a provider in the US. -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 Community ConneXion, Inc. FAX: 510-986-8777 The Internet Privacy Provider http://www.c2.net/ sameer at c2.net From gimonca at skypoint.com Sat Aug 10 15:06:41 1996 From: gimonca at skypoint.com (Charles Gimon) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 06:06:41 +0800 Subject: Chemistry question please .. (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:53:09 -0700 > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com > Subject: Chemistry question please .. > > Is there such a chemical compound as putracine ( maybe not correctly spelled ) which emulates the extreme odor of rotting corpses ? If so where can I find out how to make it ? > See Neal Stephenson's novel "Zodiac". From nobody at replay.com Sat Aug 10 17:06:28 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:06:28 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases In-Reply-To: <199608101504.RAA03459@internal-mail.systemics.com> Message-ID: <199608102116.XAA23230@basement.replay.com> Why don't they just have government access to car engines? They could just require car manufacturers to include remote shutdown devices for the engines. From proff at suburbia.net Sat Aug 10 17:06:58 1996 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:06:58 +0800 Subject: GOP Security (fwd) Message-ID: <199608102127.HAA15949@suburbia.net> Forwarded message: >From notes at igc.org Sun Aug 11 07:25:25 1996 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 12:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: Moderator of conference "justice.polabuse" From: Bob Witanek Subject: GOP Security To: Recipients of pol-abuse Message-ID: X-Gateway: conf2mail at igc.apc.org Errors-To: owner-pol-abuse at igc.apc.org Precedence: bulk Lines: 201 Posted: Michael Novick Philadelphia Inquirer: Page One Sunday, August 4, 1996 Next security test: GOP's convention Even before the Atlanta bombing, San Diego had battened down for the Republican s' meeting. By Carol Morello INQUIRER STAFF WRITER SAN DIEGO -- For all the festive bunting and wacky elephants springing up around town, the Republican National Convention will open here in a grim atmosphere of no-nonsense security. With a week left to go, Harbor Street, six lanes sweeping past the convention center, already has been closed to traffic. Owners of boats docked in the marina adjoining the center have been notified that their vessels will be swept and boarded for ``consensual searches.'' Tall chain-link fences ring the convention center itself. But metal detectors like the ones the delegates will pass through were deemed too unwieldy for the parking lot across the street, where 65 protest groups have been assigned carefully choreographed time slots. Instead, a sign at the entrance will advise that satchels and backpacks may be searched, and police have leased 200 pieces of high-tech equipment to detect firearms and explosives. Police also have gathered floor plans and photographs of every hotel and party site where delegates will be lodged and feted, all considered potential targets. They have even pressed the Retired Senior Citizens Patrol into service, and encouraged abortion doctors to ``take a vacation.'' Authorities in Chicago, where the Democrats will meet the last week of August, are taking similar precautions. Metal detectors, bomb-sniffing dogs and surveillance cameras will be in force, along with thousands of police. Coast Guard cutters will patrol Lake Michigan. Chicago police are sealing an eight-block area around the United Center sports arena, the main convention site, to all unauthorized cars, trucks and pedestrians. As the 20th century nears an end, wary, pervasive security is as much a part of the convention scene as Old Glory and silly hats. San Diego has been preparing convention security for more than a year. Then a bomber on the other side of the country suddenly made everyone wonder if the next big public event could be free of mayhem and terror. In an emergency meeting called the day after a pipe bomb exploded at the Olympics in Atlanta, convention security planners assured Mayor Susan Golding that plans already in place were adequate. They said they neither made, nor expect to make, any significant changes. They have devised more than 100 scenarios that could threaten a peaceful convention, from an earthquake to a building collapse to a bomb like the one that twisted Atlanta's moment of glory. Carl Truscott, head of convention security for the Secret Service, said he had reached a ``comfort level'' for security within the center itself. His agents are conducting sweeps of the 800 to 1,000 sites around San Diego County where party potentates will appear. But he said the sweeps began before Atlanta's bombing. ``It certainly raised our awareness level and concern,'' said Capt. Dave Bejarano, head of the San Diego Police Department's convention security planning unit, which is coordinating the deployment of law enforcement from 18 different agencies. ``But we've made no significant changes. We'll just be more proactive. We're planning for the worst-case scenario, and hoping for the best.'' After two failed bids, San Diego fought hard for this moment in the sun. But even before it's begun the clouds are out. Television networks and party poo-bahs have groused about the convention center's puny dimensions. Protesters went to court to guarantee a demonstration zone where delegates can hear and see them after the Republicans tried to shuffle them down the street. With equal amounts of anticipation and trepidation, San Diegans are prepared to host 50,000 visitors who can charitably be described as intense -- 8,000 conventioneers, 12,000 media representatives and tens of thousands of protesters. They know the GOP gathering will showcase this city of 1.2 million people more than all previous events held here, from the Super Bowl to the World Series. Twice before, San Diego was an also-ran in the convention sweepstakes. In 1972, the convention that nominated Richard Nixon to a second term was moved to Miami when a leaked memo by ITT lobbyist Dita Beard disclosed that the Justice Department dropped an antitrust lawsuit against the corporation after it donated $400,00 to the San Diego convention campaign. And in 1992, Republicans encouraged the city to make a costly bid, only to pick Houston in George Bush's home state. With the conventions-that-almost-were behind them, the city that alternately describes itself as ``America's Finest City'' and the ``City of the 21st Century'' hopes to prove to the country -- and itself -- that it has more going for it than the weather. ``We believe in a lot of outside feedback,'' said Francine Phillips, author of America's Finest City -- If We Say It Enough We'll Believe It. ``We've long felt that if we do it here, it's not really good enough. ``For years and years, we were second to Los Angeles in size and second to San Francisco in sophistication. Now San Diego is coming into its own. It's an opportunity, and a risk. We're going to get exposure, and we feel vulnerable.'' Jack Ford, son of former President Gerald Ford, is responsible for setting the stage in the compact bayside convention center, built in 1989. It was designed to hold 13,000, but it's been reconfigured to hold 19,600. That still falls well short of 50,000 in Houston's Astrodome and 40,000 in New Orleans' Superdome, site of the 1988 convention. Seating is so tight that it has helped the price for nondelegate tickets soar through the convention center's tentlike roof. In Houston, anyone who donated $1,000 to the party got two floor passes. In San Diego, donors have to pony up $100,000 to qualify for the same two tickets. The host committee's head of protocol, Bill Black, couldn't even secure enough seats for the 92 foreign ambassadors and their spouses he's entrusted with shepherding around the convention and to social events. Since most are smokers, however, he figures he can rotate them in and out of seats when they sneak to the terrace for a smoke. It will look more cramped than recent conventions. A CBS executive complained the convention will come across on TV screens like ``a postage stamp with a bunch of ants crawling around on it.'' Ford, executive director of the host committee, put the best face on the situation as he walked around the convention floor recently. ``It's the Camden Yards of conventions centers,'' he said, as stagehands hammered away on temporary skyboxes. ``It will be more intimate, not big and sterile like Veterans Stadium.'' As for all the carping about not having a dramatic balloon drop from the 27-foot ceiling, Ford said jovially: ``There are lots of other possibilities, not the least of which is having a balloon rise.'' An array of protesters has lined up to get a rise out of delegates. To control them, police drew up 55-minute slots spread over five days, with 15-minute breaks to rotate protest groups. Groups stood in line for up to 72 hours to have first crack at the 65 spots. Thirteen protest groups identify themselves as Democrats. At least eight spots were reserved by gay and lesbian groups. ``This is going to be the largest mobilization of lesbians and gays ever in this country,'' said Brenda Schumacher, a spokesman for a group called Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Voices '96. ``We've faced an extremely hostile political environment ever since '92. We want to expose the lies and show an accurate picture of who we are.'' The Republican National Committee tried to confine all the protesters to a sit e three blocks from the convention center. It said the parking lot across the street should be reserved for handicapped parking. But the ACLU sued, and a federal judge agreed the Republican proposal would violate the protesters' right to be seen and heard by delegates. Police, who estimate 10,000 protesters at a time can wedge onto the two-acre parking lot, had drawn up the time slots for protest groups wherever they wound up. Parking will be at a premium. The Secret Service has banned underground parking at the convention center. And the Republican National Committee has reserved every spare parking space in town for its people. The host committee raised about $12 million to put on this party, more than double what any other city contributed before. In return, it's counting on $160 million to be spread around town during convention week and good publicity to pull in even more economic benefits. Knowing the Republican reputation for big spending, every business in the vicinity, from Hooters restaurant to the Goodwill Industries store, is decking itself out with GOP paraphernalia. The Cuban Cigar Factory laid on extra tobacco rollers in early January. Limousine companies lined up cars from Arizona and Nevada. One bar opened its doors just two months ago, unabashedly calling itself the Grand Old Party, complete with a pink neon elephant in the window. Even Carol the Painting Elephant at the San Diego Zoo is getting into the act, readying an exhibit of the brush strokes created by her swinging trunk. Still, a few San Diegans profess to be unfazed about all the hoopla. ``This is not the biggest convention we've ever had,'' said Stephen Cushman, a Mazda and Jaguar auto dealer who is deputy chairman of the host committee. ``Alcoholics Anonymous and the Baptist ministers both held bigger conventions here. We handled those just fine.'' Posted in pol-abuse at igc.apc.org To subscribe, send this message: subscribe pol-abuse To this address: majordomo at igc.apc.org -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff at suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From hallam at ai.mit.edu Sat Aug 10 17:17:55 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:17:55 +0800 Subject: Anguilla Censors taxBomber ..... ?? In-Reply-To: <4uimq2$n4n@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <320D01F1.41C6@ai.mit.edu> Anonymous wrote: > > As of immediately, the "taxBomber's Site & Internet Offshore Center" > has been pulled by our Anguilla provider and will remain inaccessible > for a few days. Before people get too carried away the site is still up and appears to have been up all along. Of course it would be a convenient ploy to advertise a site of this type by claiming to have been censored. I had a look at their wares and was not impressed. The diplomatic passport and "second passport" offers are somewhat pricey at $10 to $20K. Note that a diplomatic passport does not convey any status or privileges unless the holders credentials have been accepted by host state. "non-revenue producing investments" will be familliar to anyone who has traded extensively in that area. Note that no country in the world offers such passports openly, to do so would be contrary to a number of international conventions. There has been the long running case of the South African immigration laws which meant that whites used to get citizenship whether they wanted it or not after a stay of about six months. Its possible that it hasn't been repealed. Note that the statement that the trade is illegal is countered by the assertion that the documents are genuine. Its very easy to obtain genuine documents if the right bribes are paid. That does not make a scheme legal. The various licenses etc appear to be avaliable on condition that you provide them with appropriate statements as to eligibility. If you apply for the student's card in this way and you are not a student you are committing fraud. If you are willing to do that you can get a student ID card much more easily - go to any branch of British Rail in the UK and you can have one for a few quid. Similarly the various other "offers" tend to be priced rather high. If you know what the card is being offered you can probably get it legit much cheaper. The piece de resistance is the offer of an EU driving license to peoplke from Ireland, Netherlands etc for only $680. Its the same goddam license! Just go to your embassy and ask them to replace your current license for an EU pink 'un. All in all stay well clear. Phill From hallam at ai.mit.edu Sat Aug 10 21:48:13 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:48:13 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? In-Reply-To: <4uefdh$12o@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <320D0B63.167E@ai.mit.edu> Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > In addition > to the "exceptions," there was no penalty for violation of the > law, thus making sure it was unenforceable. It was not a case > of "pro-gun fascism" but of rough American political humor. At > the very least it kept the city council out of more serious > mischief. Was there a bar against a person obtaining an injunction to force someone to purchase a gun or a provision providing that no liabilities would be incurred as a result of not owning one? The law is much too important to start abusing to make political points. Phill From hallam at ai.mit.edu Sat Aug 10 22:06:47 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 13:06:47 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? In-Reply-To: <4ufqum$ihk@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <320D0C1E.2781@ai.mit.edu> Peter Trei wrote: > Quite a while back, I read an article in National Rifleman (the NRA > magazine), that for part of the 19th century it was the law that all > adult men in the Balkan statelet of Montenegro must carry a pistol > when in public (a close relative of the ruler had a monopoly on the > manufacture and sale of firearms in the kingdom). > > Traveler's reports noted the extreme civility of Montenegrin > society during this period. Yes and what happened in the early part of the 20th century with respect to that area of Europe? Phill From perry at piermont.com Sat Aug 10 22:26:23 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 13:26:23 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? In-Reply-To: <320D0B63.167E@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <199608102237.SAA10457@jekyll.piermont.com> Hallam-Baker writes: > The law is much too important to start abusing to make political > points. An excellent argument for libertarianism, Mr. Hallam-Baker. Perry From bromill at deltanet.com Sat Aug 10 22:32:28 1996 From: bromill at deltanet.com (Doug Weimer) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 13:32:28 +0800 Subject: Where can I get the public key? In-Reply-To: <24700.9608101234@exe.dcs.exeter.ac.uk> Message-ID: <320CD954.7042@deltanet.com> aba at atlas.ex.ac.uk wrote: > > I'm downloading things to put on the CDROM that Remo Pini > is organising. (I'm doing the downloading because I > have better net connect than Remo, I'll simply forward my downloads on > a gold CD; it's Remo's CD, he will add things, structure, re-organise, > junk sections etc). > > If there is anything that anyone thinks is a must have please let me > know, or email it to me. (PGP keys on keyserver, either encrypt to me > (0x556A4A67) or Remo Pini (0x33F9B4E9), if it's encrypted to Remo, I'll > just forward it on the CD for Remo's consideration). > > Please check that it is not already on the ftp site below. > > So far I am part way through a complete dump of (including all the > mirrors): > > ftp://idea.sec.dsi.unimi.it/pub/crypt > > here's the top level directory: > > drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 1024 Jan 30 1996 LUC > drwxr-xr-x 2 510 root 3072 Aug 10 09:31 PGP > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1579 Sep 2 1994 README > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Jan 30 1996 SKIP > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 3072 Jan 30 1996 applied-crypto > drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 2048 Feb 2 1996 bignum > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 10752 Jul 12 09:13 code > drwxr-xr-x 27 root root 1024 Jun 19 23:01 cypherpunks > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jan 30 1996 docs > drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 1536 Jul 29 23:02 ftp.demon-PGP > drwxr-xr-x 13 root root 512 Aug 7 23:15 ftp.funet.fi-crypto > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Aug 6 23:10 ftp.informatik-PGP > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Apr 18 23:02 ftp.informatik-disk# > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Jan 30 1996 ftp.mantis-cryptography > drwxr-xr-x 8 root root 512 Jun 4 23:28 ftp.ox.ac.uk > drwxr-xr-x 5 root root 512 Aug 1 08:28 ftp.pgp.net > drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 512 Jun 5 23:47 ftp.psy-Crypto > drwxr-xr-x 2 root staff 512 Apr 1 09:21 kerberos > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Jan 30 1996 libdes > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 512 Mar 23 15:37 math > drwxr-xr-x 9 root root 512 Jan 30 1996 rpub.cl.msu.edu > drwxr-xr-x 15 root root 1024 Jan 30 1996 rsa.com > > (Amazing collection they have btw, the cypherpunks mirror seems to be > very up-to-date, some files just three days old... what is this, > automated ITAR violation?) > > 118Mb and counting... > > I'll be doing this today (and tomorrow if it takes that long), and > hopefully blowing a gold CD monday. (Before anyone notices I've > clobbered 600Mb of disk space, hopefully). > > Adam > > Key for user ID: Adam Back > 1024-bit key, Key ID 556A4A67, created 1993/06/08 > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 2.6.2i > > mQCNAiwUXUEAAAEEAJnWEHE3juLAyMnEt3hrID3t8tblJvJPfoPz4Plg+2a5y4HA > TonXBomkhm8hrRu1umruUUaeW1mxIbpvP413a2JyU7pdyfyoFVpWW5iT9pXYOgSW > 65d+5GWe4g4PLrSbJZPBFIezd8xddnx5+5hbRk1K6UpfReQuOynIuJ1VakpnAAUT > tBxBZGFtIEJhY2sgPGFiYUBkY3MuZXguYWMudWs+iQCVAgUQMC4WlX47g+7S34A9 > AQGJ3wP9Fwcooqg1/3MYFrfbMoqGydE60ypaCXBIM8Zypqhx+64ap8FhkANqW1jx > ltQMC7ZHhPiWMpNtWEGWcWFnqytyVIvGv8nuBGmiUrPJnMPWAsHTwl2tJ5WpYdPf > xQRLfN5eWrjW8Ps5fQHKziBrE0HAK9FcuZ51fSBH4ulmd/2kO9+JARUDBRAv4EaG > sVcwSRahJGUBARF3CACOs/Z1IpyKJqLswf979RbvfpCzi4r2vuzKdfFE+NBV7x0m > m13v3Eldf/5Z5WByZ36SQjxUhIxqMdaVQafaS5oiQZrmy31K6IyAJxQwdPNZ+pAd > AeASm9q1IjYIb0+As6QWdePYP9jRrHESHkDgmJANnAcU+OL9pbrqjdwIYPW1rvpI > 58VCiCvQ2v/A9Lq+R4opwQ3rz4lX9/7qDnWfBe2pcaorQXAuXLSGEba/H4HUKvIr > OnW3jcQzK2lebxKRDduwFOMTnrcpnRVLn21NSukYsOU1WZ4valwIFGUt88hcO8Ki > f0liCzFqfvfbLPdtW/hqS/v5ukuI+y017xb3H8vWiQCVAwUQL9gNKSnIuJ1Vakpn > AQHH6AP/T7dwXid03U7UM2/QzU+y6F4kHrGBuvJcyJewWbEb16ItkMngjzXP47kx > gZygR4MWXsyQlvE2inSYzRJ3L+6ftaPvX8JsvVCll7JIejfmNGZYSWw9E/vPi/ls > aa+pN3WqPxnzpwr8PL6b8w1fZZ47antgdZlOXgGO+hRbWV7zPcc= > =iFuA > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > Key for user ID: Remo Pini > 2048-bit key, Key ID 33F9B4E9, created 1996/07/14 > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > mQENAzHpRlsAAAEIANgw4sEL9idlZxO8UBYPluxSXI5tkDSpGAc5EfxeGsrnesEs > hnfhT7uQfr2M7mdY3BIvOVGj672m+1c0Bv4jO6E56uUaElS5uaf/rpd0lRdKNwnv > zokSprnUEOnXy8ZgtOqws97/I4J7gkvjhu9QJGj2CnHduQ4De1Q63kwVHuySJWvX > ecPBpV8XYrYkXumPJ6L/aBnnc/mT0ZVtKszoh/IHTq3dub/cWzShLBasmcIsIjDe > ZjAoxjGkN5t1fSpuUWIkzv0rIOdBNZaEYmVnhj6Q8BkrEep+3KsycJsJi3dr0Pk8 > n/lPu8fD9VnpO2uMRFQVBx4vYCMkEWHLmzP5tOkABRG0GFJlbW8gUGluaSA8cnBA > cnBpbmkuY29tPokBFQMFEDHpRlsRYcubM/m06QEBgwcIAI24HElAY2JED5PJ78ct > R46RNWjMGQ5phP6ugE/xZzeW5zscHZChu1r8cdf+usl/qrTDPazYhcIfgiNwovdl > ofvt/X5vDvlFMFqvlXB6O8x09eGWXjfS/5Wo9O4wPSEPv66CGHQ0q8pZsxtboyNH > +eeYxqhSA03MDg5iWx5kakT2ShRv21oCwEZBTN8XOO4hRnfamIvOt5F8v3ypJZli > w7xM398Dl0fATmNSVFiJp+l/c/+uNFLlyBU9Dp/m1w2nXXVmbVtTSJN0p4cZZ4WB > 1FsNhH8yj+JURr2OtqKeZLDQz88bIiw/nawJB8mvNAr6bml5GxgCi91f9l6xYeb5 > ryQ= > =UhcC > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- This encryption starting to bug. From vince at offshore.com.ai Sat Aug 10 23:20:52 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:20:52 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. Message-ID: Taxbomber wrote: >This is the work of some journalist hacks who did a major job of >character assassination by claiming that we (and our provider) >were involved in selling fake passports. This is a fraud by taxbomber. He is totally involved with selling fake passports. He calls them "camouflage passports" and they have names like "British Honduras" of countries that no longer exist, or never did. He does not think they are "fake", but the rest of the world does. He also suggested opening up bank accounts with these fake passports (encouraging fraud). My lawyer called me up and told me that fake passports are illegal in Anguilla and that I should pull this guy immediately. I did. It is our policy to not permit anything on our servers that is illegal in Anguilla. My lawyer is where I get the definition of "illegal in Anguilla". Tim: >(I assume this is Vince Cates' site, though I haven't doublechecked... Yes, taxbomber was using Offshore Information Services. Tim: >Longterm, I've never believed there is much safety in locating in *any* >physical country. (By this I mean advertising and making it clear that one >is in Country X, said to be "friendly" to tax avoiders, data havens, money >laundering, etc. As a practical matter, taxbomber would have been better off to not state what country his web site was currently in, let alone who the provider was. This reporter seems not to even use email, and I doubt he would know how to locate a sites provider. Tim: >I'd guess that Vince has had a fun time in the Carribbean, but that he'll >be closing up shop sometime soon. Once some services are yanked, confidence >is lost. I am not closing up at all. Anything that is legal in Anguilla can be done from my servers. If not, then not. Note that there are no taxes here, and there are still many things a guy can do here that are not permitted in other places. However, fake passports turns out not to be one of them. Sameer: > Note that the taxbomber site is moving to a provider in the US. Actually, at the moment http://www.taxbomber.com/ is off in Europe someplace. The US provider has been slow to come up with an IP address. :-) -- Vince From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Sat Aug 10 23:21:05 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:21:05 +0800 Subject: An SSL implementation weakness? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was the second SSL problem documented; it was fixed in netscape 2.0. The fix is to include the hostnames used for the server in the certificate as multi-values for the CommonName (CN). The fix is relatively simple; The client must then check the certificate to make sure the hostname matches, and the CA must not check ownership of domain names before issuing certs. Simon (the first, and silliest was the original SSL's habit of using RC4 on (essentially) known plain-text with no checksum. Doh!) --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From frissell at panix.com Sat Aug 10 23:21:30 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:21:30 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960810235220.00a455fc@panix.com> Time to fire up the '57 Chevy. At 05:04 PM 8/10/96 +0200, Gary Howland wrote: >Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases > > BY GILES WHITTELL > AND NIGEL HAWKES > > IT COULD be the end of the car chase as we know it. With the automotive equivalent of > a stun gun, science fiction is coming to the aid of law enforcement. > > A high-powered electrical device under development at the Pentagon's Army Research From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 10 23:34:08 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:34:08 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned for Not Having a Gun? Message-ID: At 10:21 PM 8/10/96, Hallam-Baker wrote: >Sandy Sandfort wrote: >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> SANDY SANDFORT >> In addition >> to the "exceptions," there was no penalty for violation of the >> law, thus making sure it was unenforceable. It was not a case >> of "pro-gun fascism" but of rough American political humor. At >> the very least it kept the city council out of more serious >> mischief. > >Was there a bar against a person obtaining an injunction to >force someone to purchase a gun or a provision providing that >no liabilities would be incurred as a result of not owning one? > >The law is much too important to start abusing to make political >points. This, of course, was my exact point. I don't buy the argument that Kennesaw (or whatever) was just making a symbolic point. If one community passes a law which mandates the ownership of guns, in contravention to the Second Amendment, then another community could ban ownership of guns, using the same logic and "general principal." (Several have, of course. I think such laws violate the Second Amendment, but apparently the courts do not agree.) And what of making a "citizen's arrest" of a "perp" who refuses to own a gun. I prefer not to have to guess which laws are real and which are merely posturing. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Sat Aug 10 23:37:10 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:37:10 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: <320B5805.712E@best.com> Message-ID: In the UK they now use cameras to deter speeding; the cameras are triggered by vehicles passing by which exceed the speed-limit, so in theory it's only naughty people who get photographed. Interestingly enough, there are far more places with camera warning signs than there are actual cameras; the actual cameras are moved around at random. Even though most of the time there isn't a camera there, almost everbody seemed to slow down in the marked areas; probably because there's almost 100% chance of being caught if there is a camera there. --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Sat Aug 10 23:39:44 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:39:44 +0800 Subject: Fw: SafE Mail Corporation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > I notice they've "sweetened" their "hacker" deal for cracking their > software. Now it's an all-expense-paid trip to North Carolina plus about > $400. Still not worth it, unless you're just pissed off. Come on, it'd be worth it even without the $400... Simon --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | IN WASHINGTON DC TILL SEPTEMBER You're my firewall - | From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 10 23:57:58 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:57:58 +0800 Subject: Going Postal (Was: Boom!) Message-ID: <199608110037.RAA10125@dns1.noc.best.net> (Regarding the one pound limit on anonymous parcels) At 08:13 AM 8/9/96 -0700, David.K.Merriman at toad.com, wrote: > Don't know that I'm a 'bomb expert', but it would appear reasonable that 6 > just-under-a-pound bombs would do approximately as much damage as a > similarly sized larger device. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, a one pound device containing high explosive can drop a plane out of the sky as if it was swatting a fly. Note that any moron can make high explosive, though the average moron has a good chance of blowing himself up in the process. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From vince at offshore.com.ai Sun Aug 11 00:05:07 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:05:07 +0800 Subject: Anguilla / taxbomber - legality Message-ID: I meant to quote this part in the previous post: taxbomber: >Needless to say, we have NEVER EVER dealt in one single fake >passport, nor have we ever offered, sold or brokered any forged, >stolen or "lost" documents. Nor is there any need to do so, if you can >get the real thing absolutely legally. He was definately selling fake passports. He thinks of them as camouflage. If I look up fake in websters, they fit the definition. Turns out this is not legal in Anguilla. If it is no longer in his web page, you can see quotes from his web page in the David Evans article. The Internet spans many counties and if something is not legal in one country but legal in another, someone can move. He has moved. One of the exciting things about the Internet. If there are taxes in your country and banks cooperate with the government, you can incorporate in Anguilla, put your web site here, and run your business from here (coming in over the Internet) tax free. But fraud is illegal in Anguilla, and fake passports are concidered fraud. -- Vince http://online.offshore.com.ai/ From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Sun Aug 11 00:22:49 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:22:49 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960811041731.00305a5c@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 02:05 10/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 12:15 PM 8/10/96, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: >>I was watched CBS reports a couple nights ago about how all these blue collar >>and now white collar jobs are going across seas. > >Where do I begin? First, what does "taking jobs away from us" mean? That we >own these jobs? And who is "us"? Well said. While I didn't see the CBS program , I bet the scaremongerers did not point out that programmers don't just produce software, they are major consumers as well. The growth of the software industry in other countries therefore means business for US industry, which produces most of the compilers and other utilities that programmers everywhere use. This clearly helps programmers in the US. >>So a possible way to protect jobs is to protect the knowledge on how to do >>them. To some extent this happens automatically -- for instance, if you live in the Silicon valley, your knowledge levels are higher on account of higher frequency of user meets, conferences, etc. But, to the extent you use the Internet as an information source, it is available internationally. So you cannot have it both ways: use an open forum like the Internet, and hope to keep knowledge bottled in. In earlier generations of computing, monopolistic organizations such as IBM and DEC charged huge sums for information. One of the reasons that IBM was thrown out of India in the mid seventies was their practice of shipping only outdated computers from the US to India. Indian programmers were at a disadvantage, and clearly could not charge as much as American ones. But the openness of MS-DOS and UNIX changed all that, a trend that has only been strengthened by the Internet. While jobs could easily move overseas, the developing world may not be able to absorb them. To start with, such migration assumes the availability of excellent telecom facilities. These are severely lacking in most developing countries, which have about 75% of the world's population and 16% of its product, but only 12% of the total number of telephone main lines. These too are mostly in cities. While the World Bank's 1988 figures indicate that in industrialized countries, major cities have a 20-30% higher telephone density than do other areas, in a country like Ethiopia, cities have a density of about 14 times the national average. In other words, most people in developing countries have practically no access to telecom facilities. In addition, the quality of the facilities, typically provided by state-owned monopolies, is often abysmal. While low-earth orbit satellite projects such as Iridium, Odyssey, Teledisc and Globalstar threaten to change all this, little impact will be felt until the end of the decade. In any case, telecom facilities in the industrialized countries will most likely continue to be considerably superior, providing workers there with an ongoing competitive advantage. Further, as economists such as Paul Krugman point out, developing countries lack the means for sustained growth ("Which Asian Model?", Newsweek, November 20, 1995). Those economies that have shown dramatic growth, such as the East Asian, have relied essentially on low-cost inputs, rather than on their efficient utilization. Professor Alwyn Young of Boston has in fact come to the surprising conclusion that Singapore's total factor productivity (which measures such efficiency) is so poor as to be comparable to that of the Soviet Union. He points out that "at just the time that everybody was ranting about how magnificent Japan was, it ceased to catch up." Cheap inputs is not a long-term phenomenon, as companies looking for good programmers in India are increasingly discovering. Programmer salaries in India are rapidly rising. While many youngsters are keen to become programmers, India lacks adequate training facilities. Today, teachers receive poor pay, even by Indian standards. Educational institutions are hardly going to be able to raise salaries of software teachers alone, while raising them for everybody will be impossible. Consequently, there is going to be little incentive for good programmers to become teachers, and the educational institutions will continue to churn out large numbers of poorly trained students. It is suggested that universities in industrialized countries could use the Internet to teach students in developing countries, but the efficacy of this model has yet to be proven. Also, a very small percentage of Indians are fluent in English, and from it come the senior bureaucrats, managers for the private sector, the military, newspapers, educational institutions -- in short, all the important posts of the country. Unless there is to be a severe disruption of the nation's activities, not too many can be diverted to cater to export. >>Perhaps there is a larger picture in the world that the cyperpunks mailing >>list is missing. That cryptography is not just for personal privacy, but >>could involve job security also - as a matter of fact, the income base for >>this whole country. I'd argue the opposite: I see no reason why companies such as Netscape have to put up with such draconian US laws as ITAR: why don't they simply develop their software overseas? If they made a highly publicised move, that might do wonders to change the opinions of US Congresspersons voting on ITAR-related legislation. My prediction is that with the blessings of the Internet, the next generation of multiracial programmers, even those that were born in the USA, will be more likely to be found on the beaches of tropical islands than in the fog of San Francisco. When you can work in the shade of a palm tree, even if you should earn less, it's worth it :-) Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From vin at shore.net Sun Aug 11 01:02:09 1996 From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:02:09 +0800 Subject: SecurID Message-ID: Paul J. Bell gave a desperate shout for help: >someone at my firm is about to press the securid system down our collective >throats. please point me to the recent thread on this subject, and/or point >me to some url's or the like, or to someone who has some firsthand >knowledge of the pitfalls and/or vulnerbilities of secirid. I think Enigma Logic, Digital Pathways, and Cryptocard -- all vendors of competitive one-time passsword (OTP) tokens --have diatribes against the ACE/SecurID system on their web sites. Check them out. Over the past two years, there have also been a number of fairly in-depth debates about SecurIDs and the ACE protocols on the Firewalls mailing list (ftp the archives at greatcircle.com) and in comp.security.unix. My SecurID FAQ, available from SDTI at might give you ideas too. Most people find the SecurID (and most of its competitors) relatively well-designed and and secure devices. Most of the negative comment I've seen is from competitors who say the SecurID and it's ACE support system is too expensive, and from ACE administrators who gripe that the software is not optimized for their favorite platform. It is unfortunately true that SDTI has not yet mastered the knack of producing perfectly bugless code. Earlier this year SDTI also fouled up badly when they failed to bring their Customer Support operation up to speed to support a new generation of authentication servers (ACE 2.X) which involved a relatively more complex Unix installation. They've spent a lot of money and hired a lot of people, but I don't think there is yet a consensus about whether they've licked that. Still, some people think they get their money's worth. SecurID is the OTP token of choice at most (80 percent +) large corporate sites --in a market with a lot of competitors, including well-done freeware OTP alternatives: s/key and OPIE. Of course, those buyers could all be wrong. SDTI's success is really built on the fact that users -- the people who actually carry the tokens -- usually say they like the SecurID better than the alternatives. The SecurID claims the lion's share of the market because it is relatively intuitive and easy to use: the PIN and token-code can be typed in like a (long) traditional password. The alternative tokens -- all challenge/response devices -- force the user to engage in a multi-step process to get a random challenge from the remote host, tap it into the token, encrypted it, then send it back to the host as the OTP. SecurIDs are supported by an ACE authentication server which -- alone among the OTP vendors -- holds its Access Control files in a commercial-grade SQL-savvy relational database, which means that can be interlinked with HR or any other SQL-savvy corporate RDBS. As the industry sets the stage for enterprise-wide IP security (hopefully soon to include crypto) many believe the authentication server's capabilities become more important than the token's design. But, hey, those folks could be wrong. SDTI also just bought RSA Data Security, which some feel enhances its prospects for making some further contribution to enterprise security. Even before that, some 50 of the leading independent vendors of network-based products (from firewalls and comm servers to big databases) had chosen to integrate ACE/SecurID client code into a huge variety of products. This is a fairly unprecidented level of industry support -- but they might be all wrong too. ACE/SecurID is notable among other OTP systems for both its support infrastructure (STDI supported the client/server architecture five years before any other OTP vendor,) and because it is a (patent-protected) time-synched device: the 30/60-second dynamic token-code the SecurID displays is a hash of Current Time and a token-specific secret seed. This has pros and cons (honest, both pros and cons;-) Unfortunately, what ACE/SecurID does not do -- what no OTP can do -- is safeguard or secure your communications links. (It also does not minimize the need for ongoing system administration; capable auditing and oversight; or an explicit local security policy -- all of which can also be burdensome to the user. But the real bear is network security.) On an unprotected network or telephone link -- in the face of a sophisticated attack -- nothing but network-level crypto or link encryption can stave off either eavesdropping or active TCP "session stealing." (Several of SDTI's strategic partners do provide encrypted tunnels through open networks. There are even some well-regarded freeware or shareware options.) SecurIDs, like any OTP, only identifies the guy who knocks on the front door. This is useful; it's even important -- but it's not enough. Most environments need (but don't have) crypto too. But even in the face of this acknowledged threat -- session hijacking -- many sites still find it useful to invest in OTP tokens, often SecurIDs. They do this because: * OTPs can offer a more-certain two-factor authentication (something known; something held); * OTPs foil a whole array of trojan and sniffer-based attacks which seek to collect the passwords of innocent users like yourself; and * OTPs can raise a partial barrier against network-based attacks. Effectively, OTPs force most network-based attacks to become overt... so the user and/or sysadmin has a chance to recognize that something is wrong and react defensively. Some believe the ACE/SecurID system actually does a little better than that. The ACE protocol encrypts all packets containing user authentication data as it passes between the ACE/Clients (often embedded communication servers of various types) and the ACE/Server. This establishes an encrypted virtual net for authentication data with the user site, which blocks another class of attacks. In an ACE/SecurID-protected environment, the threat of network-based attacks is thus somewhat constained. Authentication calls, and the TCP/IP sessions they authorize, remain quite vulnerable if they are transmitted over the Internet, or an extended private network, or telephone links susceptable to physical wiretaps. OTPs safeguard the authentication calls against replay attacks --and most of the race attacks seem managable -- but unencrypted sessions ultimately remain vulnerable to both eavesdropping and session hijacking In many corporations, however, only a fraction of the data traffic travels on these high-risk links. While there are net-based attacks that might reach in to grab unencrypted message traffic on your internal LAN (Is someone is also trying to force a firewall on you guys too, PJ?) within the ACE client/server environment, at least user authentication data -- name, OTP, and PIN -- seems to be securely encrypted. Not that there aren't hackers -- and cynical system administrators -- probing and testing it daily. Rumors and dark suspicious whispers abound, as seems inevitable with any successful product that relies on crypto. (Actually, any widely used computer security product -- have you noticed?) Personally, I find it reassuring to remember that for virtually every flaw there is, inevitably, a fix. But then, Wall Street's recent soaring climbs and plunging drops remind me of just how potent rumors can be. Please come back and tell us if you find any real dirt, Mr. Bell. (And please pardon the blithe spirit that infected my comments. It's just hard to play the straight man on a Saturday summer night.) Also, an obligatory avowal: SDTI regularly pays me huge sums of money for information and advice, but they ignore at least half of what I say. You can too. Suerte, _Vin Vin McLellan +The Privacy Guild+ 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, Ma. 02150 USA Tel: (617) 884-5548 <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> From shamrock at netcom.com Sun Aug 11 01:14:16 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:14:16 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: At 23:16 8/10/96, Anonymous wrote: >Why don't they just have government access to car engines? They could >just require car manufacturers to include remote shutdown devices for >the engines. But they will. Didn't you know that? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From tcmay at got.net Sun Aug 11 02:18:26 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:18:26 +0800 Subject: Where is the fraud? (re: Anguilla) Message-ID: One more thing.... At 12:53 AM 8/11/96, Vincent Cate wrote: >This is a fraud by taxbomber. He is totally involved with selling fake >passports. He calls them "camouflage passports" and they have names like >"British Honduras" of countries that no longer exist, or never did. He >does not think they are "fake", but the rest of the world does. He also >suggested opening up bank accounts with these fake passports (encouraging >fraud). On this last point, how is this "encouraging fraud"? If I deposit money in a bank and choose to identify myself as "Mickey Mouse, Citizen of the Magic Kingdom," perhaps even presenting a Disneyland Passport, who is being defrauded? Is the bank being defrauded? Not if Mickey is depositing money. What if the bank is _lending_ money to Mickey? Then of course they might find that the "Magic Kingdom" is not a real country, and that Mickey's "passport" was not issued by one of the 192 godfearing countries in the United Nations. So what? Then they deny the loan. Where is the fraud? Is Anguilla in the business of determining what a True Name is? (What is it, by the way?) I should remind readers that it is legal to sell such passports in the U.S....somewhere I have one that says "This document not good for travel in the People's Republics of Berkeley, Santa Monica, and Madison," or somesuch. Again, which specific law in Anguilla specifies which pieces of paper may be bought and sold? Does the law say an actual crime or case of fraud has to occur, or is only the potentiality of a crime or fraud involved? Does the crime or fraud have to occur in Anguilla? Inquiring minds want to know. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Sun Aug 11 02:40:26 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:40:26 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. Message-ID: (I have respect for what Vince did, by actually moving to the Caribbean and setting up a data haven/offshore ISP business. However, just as we discuss the situation about remailers going down, or monitoring the cleartext, or blocking certain addresses, so too should we discuss what Vince is choosing to do. Maybe he is ultimately right, maybe not. I'm including this preface just so no one thinks I'm trying to start a feud. No way.) At 12:53 AM 8/11/96, Vincent Cate wrote: >Taxbomber wrote: >>This is the work of some journalist hacks who did a major job of >>character assassination by claiming that we (and our provider) >>were involved in selling fake passports. > >This is a fraud by taxbomber. He is totally involved with selling fake >passports. He calls them "camouflage passports" and they have names like >"British Honduras" of countries that no longer exist, or never did. He >does not think they are "fake", but the rest of the world does. He also >suggested opening up bank accounts with these fake passports (encouraging >fraud). "What is truth?" Many of the things customers of a data haven are likely to be doing are "fraudulent" or "illegal" in some jurisdictions....I'm sure I don't have to spend effort here citing examples from religious, medical, and business domains. (But I can't resist: vitamin data the U.S. calls fraudulent, political information about Ireland the U.K. calls illegal, sex information the government of Iran punishes with death, and so on.) Selling fake passports seems not to be something Vince ought to even be paying attention to. Granted, pressure from outside states may put pressure on Vince, but this actually confirms my worst (OK, _nearly_ my worst) suspicions about the viability of such data havens. >My lawyer called me up and told me that fake passports are illegal in >Anguilla and that I should pull this guy immediately. I did. It is our >policy to not permit anything on our servers that is illegal in Anguilla. >My lawyer is where I get the definition of "illegal in Anguilla". Instead of "pulling" this guy, did you first send a copy of your lawyer's letter to you to this guy, and advise him that he should remove just this one specific item, the allegedly illegal British Honduras passports? >Tim: >>I'd guess that Vince has had a fun time in the Carribbean, but that he'll >>be closing up shop sometime soon. Once some services are yanked, confidence >>is lost. > >I am not closing up at all. Anything that is legal in Anguilla can be >done from my servers. If not, then not. Note that there are no taxes >here, and there are still many things a guy can do here that are not >permitted in other places. However, fake passports turns out not to be >one of them. Then I suggest you carefully provide a full copy of what you consider to be illegal to all subscribers. Or give subscribers a time period to remove the _specific_ items that are deemed to be illegal. I have some questions, though. Would bomb-making instructions be legal or illegal, acceptable or not acceptable on your system? How about "Kill the Queen" screeds? And so on. Sorry to put you on the spot, Vince, but a "data haven" is by its nature going to have a lot of "unusual" material, to use a euphemism. Everything from Bell's bids for having government officials offed, to plans for sale on creating false identiites, to crypto anarchy manifestos advocating the destruction of democracies. If you "pull" the entire account of a business when the Governor-General, or His Royal Excellency--or whomever it is that runs Anguilla--applies pressure....well, you won't have much of a real data haven, now will you? Could you actually give us an idea of what is considered legal to run in Anguilla, and what is not? How about dial-a-porn sites? (I seem to recall mention from you or a visitor that "Penthouse" is not permitted to be sold in Anguilla, so....) How about gambling? How about assassination markets? (Is it legal in Anguila if no residents or citizens of Anguilla are included in the "game"?) And so on. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From pjn at nworks.com Sun Aug 11 05:07:25 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:07:25 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning e Message-ID: In> IT COULD be the end of the car chase as we know it. With the In> automotive equivalent of a stun gun, science fiction is coming In> to the aid of law enforcement. In> A high-powered electrical device under development at the In> Pentagon's Army Research Laboratory in Adelphi, Maryland, is In> to be tested by police and border patrol agents and could be In> in use by next year. In> The car stopper works by focusing an intense electromagnetic In> charge on the electronic systems that manage most modern In> engines, disabling them and paralysing the car. In the jargon In> of its inventors, the 150 kilovolt charge is a nemp, or non-nuclear In> electromagnetic pulse. Contractors are bidding to produce a In> police version. In> Very precisely directed beams are required, but even then In> there will be problems. A pulse powerful enough to disable an In> engine at any reasonable range would also be likely to disrupt In> communications, damage television and radio sets, disable computers In> and even stop heart pacemakers. There is also the danger of In> loss of control when a car is being driven at high speed. In> Counter-measures would include using old-fashioned engines In> with no electronics, or perhaps surrounding the most delicate In> components with shielding. The best might be to get hold of In> one of the stun guns and use it to disable pursuing police vehicles. Is there any dif between this and a HERF gun? P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... RAM DISK is NOT an installation procedure! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From mudge at l0pht.com Sun Aug 11 05:31:06 1996 From: mudge at l0pht.com (What we're dealing with here is a blatant disrespect of the law!) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:31:06 +0800 Subject: F2 hash? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Vin McLellan wrote: > As Cerridwyn Llewyellyn reported, Mudge -- > posed and celebrated on page 40-something of last month's WiRed -- told the > DefCon audience that SDTI's lawyers were after him, threatening something > dire, so he was not going to release his "white paper" on weaknesses in the > ACE/SecurID system for several months. Instead, he delivered a talk on > s/key vulnerabilities. > > This was weird, because I *knew* Security Dynamics had neither > consulted nor asked their lawyers to do anything about Mudge's speech on > SecurID vulnerabilities. It would have been a fool's ploy: silly and > counterproductive. > > John and I took Mudge out for dinner right after that speech. He > told us then that he had inadvertently misspoken when he blamed his > temporary silence on SDTI's lawyers. The real problem, he said, was with > bullying lawyers from two corporate clients he is now under contract to in > his day job. > > (He didn't explain this further, but I understood that Mudge is > working for two firms which have access to SDTI plans and trade secrets > under non-disclosure agreements. The firms were apparently worried about > their liability -- given their promises to SDTI and Mudge's work in their > employ. Mudge may want to elaborate on this. Or not.) > Hrmmm. Let me set the record straight here. Lest people think I would violate nda agreements upon end of contracts. sigh. First, I am not under any NDA agreement with STDTI. All of my research and work on the SecurID token cards was done independently from any of the companies I am currently contracting for (I noticed that there were several problems with the system and that's enough to set me off on something). Second, while I did refrain from going into specifics on SecurID vulnerabilities at the talk - I did give one on some of the problems with OTP's in general. S/Key happened to be a good example to use in illustration as a large portion of the audience there was familiar with it. Many of the vulnerabilities mentioned there hold true to SecurID. Third, and most important, the reason I refrained from giving the SecurID talk was that the two companies I am doing some security related contract work for both employ this technology in varying degrees. I have explained the problems that I have found to these companies and they are quite concerned. I believe it would be un-ethical to give out instructions on how to break through SecurID, thus leaving networks vulnerable that I am being paid to help secure before the problem has been addressed locally (I like being able to put food on the table). The information will be made public in the near future. SDTI has been made aware of these problems (some of which were presented to them almost a year ago). I don't dislike SecurID. I am quite happy to have made Vin and John's acquaintance as they are both wonderfull people. I do feel that there are problems with SecurID that exist largely due to the card being sold into an environment that it was not designed for (a little thing called the internet). I just wanted to set the record straight as I realised that the inital statements that Vin made could be mis-interpreted and potentially impact my image to future employers (though I know that this was not his intention). cheers, .mudge PS I do not currently read / keep up with the cypherpunks list. So I probably will only see the bits of this thread that are forwarded to me. From jya at pipeline.com Sun Aug 11 07:15:26 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:15:26 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: <199608111213.MAA26617@pipe5.t1.usa.pipeline.com> On Aug 10, 1996 23:07:44, 'shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green)' wrote: >At 23:16 8/10/96, Anonymous wrote: >>Why don't they just have government access to car engines? They could >>just require car manufacturers to include remote shutdown devices for >>the engines. > >But they will. Didn't you know that? Why don't we have people's access to government? We could require officials to include remote shutdown devices when they renege on promises, line their pockets, start wars to get re-elected, betray public trust by cruel neglect of their sworn obligations while strutting and bombasting -- damn fools interrupting my X-rated sleazy cheating schemes to fuck my neighbor's dog, or ferret, or mudhole; god, I hate my momma's favorite fuck-up, poor little me, please, world, help me get off Ritalin and wheat germ and my lead-filled ass. Now, off to Sunday school to pray not to burn in hell. On second think, fuck it, com 'ere pooch. From shabbir at vtw.org Sun Aug 11 07:21:23 1996 From: shabbir at vtw.org (Voters Telecommunications Watch) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:21:23 +0800 Subject: INFO: Gather and talk to Republican luminaries live online from the convention! Message-ID: <199608111220.IAA22009@panix3.panix.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPUBLICAN CONVENTION! LIVE! CHECK IT OUT ONLINE! (DO NOT DISTRIBUTE AFTER AUGUST 20, 1996) WHAT: Live feed from the Republican Convention in San Diego over the net Eat, drink, shmooze with Republican luminaries through the Net. WHERE: @Cafe, #12 St. Mark's Place (212-979-5439) WHEN: 8:30pm, Tuesday August 13, 1996 At 8:30pm EST on Tuesday, August 13, 1996, the Republican National Convention will be broadcast live over the Internet! The Several members of Congress will be present and, technology and Murphy's Law permitting, they'll be able to talk to you online through CUSeeMe. Many of New York's Republicans will be gathering at the @Cafe (address below), one of New York's many fine cybercafes, to eat, drink, shmooze, and queue up for a chance to talk to notable Republican legislators live from the Republican convention. Montana Senator Conrad Burns, who has been a driving force within the bi-partisan push to deregulate encryption, will be cyber-present, as will Montana Governor Marc Racicot, widely regarded as a visionary. The event is being coordinated in San Diego by Mike Rawson of Senator Conrad Burns office. Rawson, who has been instrumental in putting the Senate hearings live online along with Jonah Seiger of the Center for Democracy and Technology, will be bringing Senators, and other luminaries to the event. The Republican National Convention's live broadcast page is at: http://www.convention96.rnc.org/live.htm Simply point your Web browser there on Tuesday night to see the live goings-on. The @Cafe is where most people will probably gather, but there are many fine Internet cafes in New York. To find the one nearest you, go to Clay Irving's NYC Guide at: http://www.panix.com/~clay/nyc/cybercafes.shtml @cafe 12 St. Marks Place. It's an Internet provider! No, it's a restaraunt! Whatever it is, it seems like a cool place! alt.coffee 139 Avenue A - Tel: 212.529.CAFE coffee. computers. comfy chairs. Cyber Cafe 273A Lafayette Street, New York, New York 10012 Tel: (212) 334-5140 Fax: (212) 334-6436 In the heart of SOHO New York, Cyber Cafe is a stylish interface between the latest internet technology and the best in fresh, organic food. Internet Cafe 3rd Street (between 1st and 2nd) Kokobar espresso bar-cafi-bookstore features workstations for all-out Internet access. Located in Fort Greene. The VOID 16 Mercer Street (at Howard, one block north of Canal) For more information on the live hookups from the Republican convention, contact Mike Rawson at Senator Conrad Burns' office at 202-224-8250. For more information on the gathering at the @Cafe in New York City, contact Shabbir J. Safdar at 917-978-8430. ### From frissell at panix.com Sun Aug 11 08:54:19 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 23:54:19 +0800 Subject: Anguilla / taxbomber - legality Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960811134146.00a288a8@panix.com> At 12:56 AM 8/11/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: >But fraud is illegal in Anguilla, and fake passports are concidered >fraud. > I should have thought that fraud required use rather than manufacture. It is hard to defraud someone just by making something. You have to communicate with them in some way. The US has very broad fraud statutes and yet these passports are sold in the US. I've never heard of any action against them. There is also a First Amendment issue with the World Federalists and their "Citizen of the World" passport. In any case, and ISP is not a publisher or vendor. Sometimes people pay more attention to lawyers than they should. DCF From frissell at panix.com Sun Aug 11 09:30:41 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 00:30:41 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960811123331.011a8e08@panix.com> At 08:15 AM 8/10/96 -0400, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: >I was watched CBS reports a couple nights ago about how all these blue collar >and now white collar jobs are going across seas. > >So a possible way to protect jobs is to protect the knowledge on how to do >them. >In essence, knowledge is money, cuz that is what we usually want for it >now-a-days. "Oh you want me to do that for you, hmmmm, lets see...." The first axiom of economics is "Wants are unlimited." I'm glad that they're "shipping all those jobs overseas." The more people we have working the more goodies are produced. If the labor of US workers is freed up, then they can go about producing something else valuable that they didn't have time to produce before because those "third worlders" weren't doing their fair share back when they were trapped in feudalism or fabian socialism. You can't get more stuff (wealth) unless everyone is out there working to capacity (consistent with their desired work/leisure tradeoff). DCF From perry at piermont.com Sun Aug 11 10:37:40 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 01:37:40 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608111520.LAA12619@jekyll.piermont.com> Timothy C. May writes: > Selling fake passports seems not to be something Vince ought to even be > paying attention to. Granted, pressure from outside states may put pressure > on Vince, but this actually confirms my worst (OK, _nearly_ my worst) > suspicions about the viability of such data havens. Vince has the right to run his business any way he likes. In some jurisdictions, "Fake" passports are legal. In some, they are illegal. Vince feels that in his jurisdiction they are illegal. He has every right to decide who to allow to run off of his web servers -- even to be arbitrary about it. Vince has made it very clear that he is NOT a data haven. Anguilla is a TAX HAVEN. That is, if you are selling copies of some software over the net or what have you, and you run the business out of Anguilla, you are not liable for any Anguillian taxes because there are none. Anguilla is *not* a data haven, drug haven, or any other sort of haven. I would have thought that Vince made this clear. Perry From charlee at netnet.net Sun Aug 11 12:03:40 1996 From: charlee at netnet.net (kickboxer) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 03:03:40 +0800 Subject: Email Bombing Message-ID: <199608111631.LAA13681@netnet1.netnet.net> Yeah, but if the REAL email bomber were such an accomplished hacker, he did not alter the scripts well enough to make the SysAdmin overlook them... -kickboxer From vince at offshore.com.ai Sun Aug 11 12:31:51 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 03:31:51 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim: >(I have respect for what Vince did, by actually moving to the Caribbean and >setting up a data haven/offshore ISP business. Thanks. >However, just as we discuss >the situation about remailers going down, or monitoring the cleartext, or >blocking certain addresses, so too should we discuss what Vince is choosing >to do. Maybe he is ultimately right, maybe not. I'm including this preface >just so no one thinks I'm trying to start a feud. No way.) Sure. There are things to figure out, lessons to learn, ... >>This is a fraud by taxbomber. He is totally involved with selling fake >>passports. He calls them "camouflage passports" and they have names like > >"What is truth?" Many of the things customers of a data haven are likely to >be doing are "fraudulent" or "illegal" in some jurisdictions....I'm sure I >don't have to spend effort here citing examples from religious, medical, >and business domains. The fraud I meant was his saying that he is not selling fake passports in his "fee sorry for me I got cut off" post. He was selling fake passports. >Selling fake passports seems not to be something Vince ought to even be >paying attention to. Granted, pressure from outside states may put pressure >on Vince, but this actually confirms my worst (OK, _nearly_ my worst) >suspicions about the viability of such data havens. Remember regulatory arbitrage. The more jurisdictions on the Intenet, the better for users. That some things are not permitted in Anguilla does not mean it is not a viable jurisdiction for some other things. For example, tax free corporations, IPOs over the Internet, gambling (Anguilla should have bingo on the Internet by the end of next month). Vince >My lawyer called me up and told me that fake passports are illegal in >Anguilla and that I should pull this guy immediately. I did. It is our >policy to not permit anything on our servers that is illegal in Anguilla. >My lawyer is where I get the definition of "illegal in Anguilla". Tim: >Instead of "pulling" this guy, did you first send a copy of your lawyer's >letter to you to this guy, and advise him that he should remove just this >one specific item, the allegedly illegal British Honduras passports? After my lawyer called I disabled the web access. I believe this is a big part of his business, and it really just makes more sense for him to use another provider than to remove it. >Tim: >Then I suggest you carefully provide a full copy of what you consider to be >illegal to all subscribers. Will do. More than just leggality, what I consider acceptable. This will show up as http://online.offshore.com.ai/rules.html >I have some questions, though. Would bomb-making instructions be legal or >illegal, acceptable or not acceptable on your system? How about "Kill the >Queen" screeds? And so on. Not acceptable. This is not the market I am after. I don't see the profit in it. >If you "pull" the entire account of a business when the Governor-General, >or His Royal Excellency--or whomever it is that runs Anguilla--applies >pressure....well, you won't have much of a real data haven, now will you? I may not have your idea of a data haven. But there are things, like no-taxes, where Anugilla has stood up to the US pressure for years. >>He also suggested opening up bank accounts with these fake passports >> (encouraging fraud). > >On this last point, how is this "encouraging fraud"? If the laws of a country say it is fraud to open a bank account with a fake passport, then encouraging someone to do so is encouraging fraud. Check with your lawyer and see if you can open up a bank account with a fake passport. If I were making the laws I would permit numbered accounts etc, so there was no interest in fake passports for bank accounts. >Then they deny the loan. One use of fake ID is to open up loans or credit cards under fake names, get some money, and then toss the fake ID and never pay, and never be found. You would agree that is fraud? Tim: >I should remind readers that it is legal >to sell such passports in the U.S....somewhere I have one that says "This >document not good for travel in the People's Republics of Berkeley, Santa >Monica, and Madison," or somesuch. Regulatory arbitrage is a fun thing. If you want to do something that is not OK in Anguilla, but is in the US, then you should do it in the US. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From tcmay at got.net Sun Aug 11 13:47:54 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 04:47:54 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. Message-ID: At 3:20 PM 8/11/96, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >Timothy C. May writes: >> Selling fake passports seems not to be something Vince ought to even be >> paying attention to. Granted, pressure from outside states may put pressure >> on Vince, but this actually confirms my worst (OK, _nearly_ my worst) >> suspicions about the viability of such data havens. > >Vince has the right to run his business any way he likes. Of course. I never said otherwise, so this is a straw man argument. Ditto for remailers, ISPs, bookstores, blah blah blah. But this does not mean people should say nothing about what they learn the practices to be. >In some jurisdictions, "Fake" passports are legal. In some, they are >illegal. Vince feels that in his jurisdiction they are illegal. He has >every right to decide who to allow to run off of his web servers -- >even to be arbitrary about it. Of course. I never said otherwise. Those of us who have commented are not challenging his legal right to do so, only remarking that if he cancels accounts without stronger legal evidence, or without making it clear what is acceptable and what is not, he risks losing reptuation capital. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From blane at aa.net Sun Aug 11 13:50:18 1996 From: blane at aa.net (Brian C. Lane) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 04:50:18 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960810235220.00a455fc@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote: > Time to fire up the '57 Chevy. > > > A high-powered electrical device under development at the > Pentagon's Army Research Actually people have done this before, using amplified radar guns to fry the electronics in newer cars. That's why I've always favored pre '70s vehicles. You can work on em, and they can't be shot from under you with new hi-tech weapons. I wonder what will happen in the insurance industry when cops start using these devices to stop car thieves. They'll recover the car but it will require a whole new brain (and who knows what else). I'm suprised that the Clinton administraion hasn't called for a car-escrow system whereby duly authorized law enforcement officials (with the permission of a Judge od course) can send a signal to your car's computer to make it shut off (or slow down or whatever). Brian ------- -------------------- ------- Embedded Systems Programmer, EET Student, Interactive Fiction author (RSN!) ============== 11 99 3D DB 63 4D 0B 22 15 DC 5A 12 71 DE EE 36 ============ From geeman at best.com Sun Aug 11 14:03:13 1996 From: geeman at best.com (I=(!isnum(self))) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:03:13 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: <320E3840.5C65@best.com> I wonder if someone's probing power-system vulnerabilities and defense strategies. Just coincidental that there's been all this noise about power grid vulnerability and two vast regional outages this summer? We spent an enjoyable evening around the oil lamps ... maybe it's not such a bad thing, this vulnerability...... ... POOF! From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Sun Aug 11 14:14:24 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:14:24 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel carbon-unit-based voice pattern matching In-Reply-To: <199608092330.QAA26402@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: > > In other words, could somebody fake a bomb threat using a recording which > has been processed to sound "exactly" like some famous person whose voice > you can analyze? > In theory, yes; with digitized sound, anything is "possible." However, in practice, it isn't all that different from altering digitized photos. In theory, a "perfect" false image could be produced, but in practice, subtle errors are detectable. Once you've detected that alteration has occurred, the information is suspect, and the perpetrator has added clues as to his/her identity. -r.w. From vince at offshore.com.ai Sun Aug 11 14:14:31 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:14:31 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perry E. Metzger > Vince has the right to run his business any way he likes. This is a very good libertarian point. > Vince has made it very clear that he is NOT a data haven. Anguilla is > a TAX HAVEN. That is, if you are selling copies of some software over > the net or what have you, and you run the business out of Anguilla, > you are not liable for any Anguillian taxes because there are none. > > Anguilla is *not* a data haven, drug haven, or any other sort of > haven. I would have thought that Vince made this clear. And Anguilla is first and foremost a taxhaven. But it tries hard to be a very clean taxhaven (does not want drug money etc). I think that "clean" corporations operating here tax free is a potentially huge market. Anguilla and OIS are not the data haven of cypherpunks wet dreams. Neither Anguilla nor I want "hit men for hire" advertising here. Sorry Tim. And I think the loss in clean business would outweigh any money from such by a long shot. The concept of a datahaven is still evolving. There are things that we can and will do from Anguilla. So while Anguilla may not really far along the cypherpunk datahaven scale at this point, I would not go so far as to say it is not a datahaven. One simple example is that OIS was given a project Gutenberg CD-ROM and may sell online copies of old books. Some countries are extending copyrights back further into the past. Anguilla is not. So we could sell books that have expired copyrights in Anguilla but not expired in USA etc. Think regulatory arbitrage. Taxhavens are a huge and well understood market. Datahavens are still new. Not counting gambling, they may only be $0/year rounded to the nearest million. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From frissell at panix.com Sun Aug 11 15:04:39 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:04:39 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960811195935.00993f9c@panix.com> At 11:28 PM 8/9/96 -0500, David E. Smith wrote: >In Missouri, that's all they wanted (a PO Box). That's >perfectly copacetic by them. If you want to register for >voting - since we have Motor Voter - they of course need >a real address. And the post office's requirements for >getting a PO Box are nearly nonexistent. Using a Mail Receiving Service (MRS) address will usually work. Many bureau-rats have yet to compile or use a list of Mail Receiving Services. There *are* commercial firms that do compile such lists but they have to be used to be any good. In those rare cases where they turn you down for a registration or drivers license because they happen to notice that you are using a MRS, you can find a real person to accept your mail for you. I solved the problem once by advertizing on Usenet newsgroups for an address and cut a deal. Another possibility is to use the "homeless defense." I'm homeless, this is the only address I have. Auto insurance companies are more likely to give you trouble than government if you use an accommodation address since they have actual money to lose. There are still 10 or so states that do not require auto insurance so by forum shopping, one can dodge this problem and save money at the same time. Most states are not so fussy, and one can usually just use MRS addresses. Litigation to force you to list a "real" address is exceedingly rare (it's not worth the government's time). This is particularly so since it is trivial to switch cities, counties, states, and countries (if in the US use Canada) for official address purposes. You control your address. Move into a hotel/motel that rents by the week, list the address, and then leave. Even in the Nazi strongholds of Mitteleuropa with their address registration laws, one can crash with friends or sublet apartments and avoid the process. Holiday cottages let a month at a time is another technique. Plenty of Germans are living unregistered lives even today. Residence=Domicile Domicile requires "actual physical presence plus intent to make it your home." *Your* actions establish intent not any actions by the government. DCF "Last year, the Government of the United States collected more taxes from the American people than any unit of government has ever collected before in the history of mankind -- and still it's not enough." From jya at pipeline.com Sun Aug 11 16:08:47 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:08:47 +0800 Subject: FCC_ups Message-ID: <199608112108.VAA23815@pipe1.ny3.usa.pipeline.com> 8-10-96. WaPo: "Phone Service Via the Internet May Slash Rates." Labs of Advanced Technology has developed a way for people to make long-distance calls over the Internet using only their telephones, at about half the price of ordinary toll calls. Customers would merely call a central number, then dial their long-distance numbers. The call is carried on the Internet, then put back onto the local phone system at its destination. The company plans to charge 5 to 8 cents per minute for all domestic U.S. calls, which represents a 50 to 75 percent discount off most domestic long-distance rates. International rates would depend on arrangements made with foreign phone companies. "Twenty years from now, and probably sooner, I don't see the giants of the telecommunications industry existing anymore," said the company's president. The giants hoot, "FCC, PACs, whack him." "PCs and the Postal Service Challenge the Mailroom Reign of Pitney Bowes" New technology has made it possible for IBM, Bell Atlantic and National Semiconductor to start prowling around postage meters, which account for $20 billion a year in postage. With a telephone line to the post office and some fancy computer software, a "stamp" could spin out of the printer at the same time the envelope is being addressed. Computer-generated envelopes will not only have addresses and stamps, but also a bar code that can quickly be read by a computer to hasten delivery. Distinctive stamps called indicia carry a specially encrypted numerical code that Pitney Bowes believes the Postal Service should adopt to prevent counterfeiting. ----- http://jya.com/fccups.txt (22 kb) via: www.anonymizer.com FCC_ups From bart.croughs at tip.nl Sun Aug 11 16:43:38 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:43:38 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB87DE.CFF8D020@groningen15.pop.tip.nl> Duncan Frissell wrote: The first axiom of economics is "Wants are unlimited." I'm glad that they're "shipping all those jobs overseas." The more people we have working the more goodies are produced. If the labor of US workers is freed up, then they can go about producing something else valuable that they didn't have time to produce before because those "third worlders" weren't doing their fair share back when they were trapped in feudalism or fabian socialism. You can't get more stuff (wealth) unless everyone is out there working to capacity (consistent with their desired work/leisure tradeoff). I agree that 'shipping all those jobs overseas' will not cause the US workers to lose jobs. There is other work they can do. But there is another axiom of economics which the nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the amount of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the wages are. If American companies are moving capital to Third World countries because of the low wages in these countries, then the workers in the Third World will of course be better off. But in the US, the amount of capital will be lowered. So the American workers will be able to get other jobs, but these jobs will pay less, because of the diminished amount of capital in the US. Of course there are advantages also for the US (shareholders will get higher returns, trade will increase), but how can you proof that these advantages will offset the disadvantage of the lowered amount of capital in the US? Anyone? Bart Croughs From farber at central.cis.upenn.edu Sun Aug 11 17:05:16 1996 From: farber at central.cis.upenn.edu (Dave Farber) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:05:16 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960811221550.006da548@linc.cis.upenn.edu> As someone who was married in NYC during the 65 blackout *happened at 1716 -- the blackout , the wedding at 1705, I have watched with interest the attempt to explain that blackout and how to prevent such. We have not progressed very far. The avalanche behavior of power systems is still not well understood and techniques to prevent such failures are not obvious. Same can be said of telephone and computer networks at different levels. Dave From rah at shipwright.com Sun Aug 11 17:36:57 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:36:57 +0800 Subject: e$: I Never Meta-Certification... Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----BY SAFEMAIL 1.0----- e$: I Never Meta-Certification... Verisign, NRC-CRISIS, Crypto vs. Encryption, "Half-Way" Measures, Meta-Certification, Reputation Rental, FLAs, Groucho Marx, and a Proto-Call for IFCA Founders. August 11th, 1996 About a month ago, after the July DCSB meeting, I had a drink with Jon Matonis, who's in charge of Financial Products for Verisign. We talked about a lot of stuff, but, since he was buying, :-), we talked a lot about certification authorities (CAs), specifically, financial certification authorities. Verisign financial certification authorities, to be completely precise. I have to admit up front that until then, I didn't follow the CA world all that much. I've been a Web-of-Trust guy, and I still think the world will go to more geodesic trust models sooner or later. The only "certificates" I care much about are the "digital bearer" kind. In a financial sense, I see certificate authorities as a way to extend book-entry accounting to the internet, and I'm more interested in edgier stuff: what I claim will be the re-emergence of cash-settled bearer certificates in the financial markets, this time in digital form, on public networks. CAs and link-level encryption are just a way, as someone from MIT said to me at MacWorld this week, to move the old private networks out onto the net, which, to my mind, are the same thing to digital commerce that derigibles were to aviation. Yes, they look like ships, which we know all about, and they *can* fly, but... Anyway, it's clear we're moving from a world of insecure transactions on private secure networks to one of secure transactions on insecure public networks. CAs, SSL, and the whole enterprise of encrypting links between accounting databases seem to be halfway measures to me. They're a way to create, like our friend from MIT says, a temporary private secure network, so you can send properly authorized, but still unsecure, book-entry down it. For that "proper authorization", you need the biometric identity a CA provides, so you can hunt down and jail miscreants who change the wrong book entry. I've even made biometric-identity CA jokes about "X.BlaBla" and "Numbers of the Beast", and all that. Which reminds me of something Steve Kent said at the NRC CRISIS report roadshow this week. He likes to make the distinction between cryptography and encryption. That is, governments tolerate cryptographic signatures because they can still read your mail, while they don't tolerate encryption, because, well, they can't read your mail. Frankly, I see that as a false dichotomy, and I think most crypto people do, too, but, since the major selling point for cryptography to business is that need to keep their book-entries clean, this gives governments a lot of breathing room. As long as most other businesses (call criminal enterprise a business for the time being) can't read the encrypted link, businesses are happy, and will accept watered-down *cryptography*, not just encryption. The problem, of course, is that *governments* will have the ability to read those messages, and even forge those signatures, and businesses aren't to the point where they're sensitive about this. Given the ubiquity of the invasiveness of modern industrial government in the affairs of business, not only with respect to regulation, but also with the ability to audit for taxes and other reasons, it may take a while for business to wake up to their own need for privacy through strong cryptography. But they will. Governments are made of people, of course, and when it's possible to create enormous financial advantage for yourself by reading financial transaction data, some of those people will do so, and, given the ubiquity of networks, they'll be able to get away with it. When you outlaw crypto, only outlaws have crypto, and all that. However, the *business* knows they've been robbed, and, since government employees are the only ones with the power to break the link and forge signatures, either through computational horesepower or key escrow, who are going to be the, heh, usual suspects? A bad place for a nation-state to be in, it seems to me. Cleptocracy may work in *some* places, but in general they're bad for business. Finally, there's a red herring in all of this, and that's the so-called exemptions for "financial activity" from much proposed cryptography controls. So, how do you know what's financial activity and what isn't if a message is encrypted? This doesn't even take into account the fact that, if bearer certificate technology takes off, from micropayments like Micromint and Millicent, through ecash and on to digital bearer certificates for foriegn exchange (a $3 trillion daily business), the sheer volume of encryption on the net, of the strongest possible form, is going to explode. Don't get me wrong, I like the CRISIS report, because they are, to use a beloved scatalogical expression, inside the tent and er, pointing, out. But, to beat a few more metaphors like dead horses :-), the CRISIS report is trying to "decompress" government into a world where they can't really wiretap anymore. To do that, they want to start the bar at, say, 56-bit DES and 1048-bit RSA, and move it up as technology, er, improves. In this, they remind me more of someone trying to shovel uphill against an avalanche. If you can't sign a mortgage with a signature long enough to withstand 30 years of Moore's law, or encrypt something you don't want others to read for that long, then why do it at all? A little bit of encryption is like being a little bit pregnant --. OK, OK, I'll give the metaphors a break now... :-). So, we're back in the hotel bar, and Jon was buying, and I'm listening. (Besides, Jon's an original e$pam subscriber, and he's *still* one, so I had *better* listen.) He has a point when he says that most of the stuff I'm interested in is out *there* somewhere, and the way you make money is here and *now*, where the "halfway measures" live. Jon says that as far as he's is concerned, of all the different kinds of businesses you can use certification authorities for, banks and financial institutions the low hanging fruit, and he and his bunch are out there shaking the trees for all they're worth. Go, Jon, go. So, why *doesn't* Verisign rule the world of financial CAs already? After all, they have the patents, "modulo" the debate on the legal strength and longevity thereof. From the standpoint of mobilized resources, they're literally the only game in town, and, even if they aren't, with a tip of the black cryptographer's hat to Redmond, a lack of uniqueness hasn't kept other first movers from software hegemony before, anyway. Well, first of all, let's assume the market's already there for book-entry transactions on the internet (like credit and debit cards, and counter-cash like Mondex). Yeah, I know, "assume a frictionless surface". But, everyone else around here does, so we'll fiat the issue for the time being. Last Sunday's "Shoe" cartoon, about the wizard spending $300 in webware upgrades while ostensibly learning to get rich doing web commerce, to the contrary. Second, we can assume that banks need certification, for all the reasons I outlined above: In order to move book-entries around the net, you need *functionally* encrypted links (for the time being, what technology and governments let us have) and the digital authority to change those book-entries. Operationally, they may not need strict biometric identity just to map a signature to an account full of money, but we'll deal with that some other time. Now, let's look at what I presume is Verisign's business strategy for financial markets. They're trying to build a superheirarchy of all those bank heirarchies, so that those banks can clear trades with each other, on the net, without using a proprietary network to do it. This is, of course admirable, if not necessary, if banks want to do internet commerce efficiently with their customers. It will be necessary when electronic checks come on line, say, next year, because even though ACH is out there on the other side of those internet-ACH gateways, there might come a time where banks will want to clear checks against each other directly. Having a CA's CA, CA^2, if you will, will make that possible. To make this happen, Verisign doesn't want you to be you unless Verisign says you're you, to paraphrase the old underwear comercial, and that, I believe, is the problem. Verisign is not paying attention to what it really is: a software vendor. It is not a financial intermediary, which is what this CA's CA would be, by definition. A financial intermediary, especially one on the net, is in effect "renting" its reputation to a trade until it clears. It is saying, first and foremost, that the trade will be safe, effectively risk-free, or at least risk-calculable, to both parties of the trade. What it does to control that risk is almost immaterial as long as it works, but, in this case, it is to use RSA as the technical means of identifying the parties of the trade, with a link to a "biometric" identity of either party. If you can call it "biometric" for a financial institution. The financial institution then, of course vouches for the contents of the particular account being offset, the book-entries swap, and the trade is over. Like flying an airliner, of course, this is the easy part. If the trade is broken, what does Verisign do? Of course, it can refuse to do trades with the offending party. It can even call the law. The former is much more powerful, however, and, frankly, it's the only enforcement mechanism which we'll be able to use someday anyway. Physical force costs a lot to use, even if you can buy it wholesale, at the government rate. Fortunately, this kind of "club", as Eric Hughes calls it, is the predominant way of renting reputation in the financial community. Think of NYSE, or NASD, or CBOT, or NIDS, or SIAC, or any other FLA. ;-). (Yes, there's DTC, and CUSIP, and Other-Letter-Acronyms too.) They're pretty easy to set up. Verisign itself is *not* how to do it, however. They would to *sell* to this reputation-rental entity. Every one of the above entities is an association (not-necessarily-non-profit), or, more usually, a member-owned corporation. So, with that in mind, internet financial institutions like banks could create an association or member-owned corporation, which would "rent" reputation and function as a financial intermediary between members. Obviously we shouldn't restrict membership in this organization to just depositories like banks, because non-depositories will be significantly involved in internet commerce. See Phil Webre's CBO study on electronic retail payments for more on that. Here is one way that could be done. A bunch of banks -- and non-depository financial intermediaries, like digital cash underwriters / trustees, payment gateway companies, (someday maybe Millicent brokers and MicroMint issuers) - -- could get together, purchase shares for startup money, and form a certification authority for themselves. Revenue could come from processing and membership fees. They could then contract with Verisign to build their system. Of course, they could contract with someone else, too, but I expect that Verisign is in the best position to do this at the moment. In addition, Verisign would probably be the technology of choice for the subordinate certification heirarchies those financial intermediaries use with their customers. Pretty lucrative, but it is also tempered by whatever patent lifetimes Verisign has hanging over its head. Here's what that gets us. We get the ability for any member to clear any trade of any agreed-upon financial instrument (subject to legal restrictions, of course) with any other member, no matter where they are in the world, using the internet as the transport mechanism. Very powerful stuff indeed. In fact, this *organization* can be located anywhere, which gets really interesting, but we'll save that for some other discussion. Notice that I'm not saying that this would be a monopoly. Just like several countries have multiple stock and commodity exchanges, there will probably be multiple financial certification associations like this one. In fact, that's the core of a good prima facie name. The Internet Financial Certification Association. Nice ring to it. Four-Letter Acronym, too. I also expect that these kinds of "heirarchies" will probably devolve into a geodesic, too, but they'll probably survive the change, because there'll always be a market for, er, inter-mediary intermediation. I feel vaguely like Frege, or Russell, or Goedel here. Maybe (Groucho) Marx? So. Like most internet enterprise ideas, all it takes is a mailgroup, and, later, a meeting (I can think of this *nice* time and place in Anguilla ;-)), to set this up. Obviously, the membership/shareholders of the proposed IFCA should be companies, and the management of this enterprise should come from the membership, or at least hired by them. Any individuals (like myself, for instance) who participate at this stage are just kibbitzers along for the ride, unless they're planning to be an internet financial institution, of course. :-). As a sort of test of the idea, I've gone and set up yet another mail-group on thumper (, with " subscribe ifca " in the body of the message) to discuss it. We'll move it someplace else later, if necessary. If there's enough interest from the right people, expect a call for founders sometime soon. If there isn't, it'll sink without a trace, as it should. So, if you, or anyone you know, is part of a financial institution involved, or wishing to get involved, in financial transactions on the internet, pass this rant along to them. Well, maybe not the *whole* rant, it might scare them. :-). But enough necessary to give them the idea, anyway. I expect that the places I put this rant will probably be enough to get critical mass for the mailgroup, at least, and we'll take it from there. Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----BY SAFEMAIL 1.0----- Version: 2.6.i iQCVAwUBMg5FQvgyLN8bw6ZVAQF2GQP/fPHzQmgLy2ZOO8qTQIZoBgyiOUxXxkDA hoWJOc0BO5IoeK+JETLTiH5BNxbVqnWQiCO0N13RWXEDFyaBHAmRoujG1hgzs2e0 zYIS37jab3nPH7bkznswQJXOgOYBu9qRtZqrP5VonWXQxz2Zw5izFqdOIiOgoANv 0xMO8UayXEY= =MTk+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From drosoff at ARC.unm.EDU Sun Aug 11 18:22:08 1996 From: drosoff at ARC.unm.EDU (David Rosoff) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:22:08 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960811231209.3c677258@arc.unm.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 08.23 AM 8/9/96 -0700, i am not a number! wrote: >>How? Their license plates have been photographed. >>... and the cheery "news" anchorwoman sweetly moved on to the next >>story..... [...] >O, and I think they're talking more about putting up cameras at some >troubling intersections to take pictures of cars running red-lights. > >And cameras on transit vehicles (buses primarily). > >Gee, I am starting to feel so warm and safe! Typical prole. Doesn't know what's good for him. =============================================================================== David Rosoff (nihongo ga sukoshi dekiru) ---------------> drosoff at arc.unm.edu PGP public key 0xD37692F9 -----> finger drosoff at acoma.arc.unm.edu or keyservers 0xD37692F9 Key fingerprint = 25 7D AA 01 85 41 43 89 50 5A 33 76 F1 F1 99 67 Do you know who's reading your email? ---> http://www.arc.unm.edu/~drosoff/pgp/ Is it a forgery? --- I have PGP signed all email and news posts since May 1996. =============================================================================== "Your Honor, I have been following this person's movements for quite some time, and I can prove that he is in possession of secret government underwear." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMg5oqxguzHDTdpL5AQGdOAQAmAjdOJzLTavjv2wsMwiJKKYc2vI2t9pk CK4lzP163lEwIbvaQsDg9sLm4CmV+6JYV4+YbeLcSLLW5xNoCHV+Eh8XkDFC+fpP XF4wjYdQyux+WF/vYeNBcnKdtMb+VKD/+P9nkSmYexuRiGMmsMDHvX2znHKWOIa0 ko8Vul1tkuQ= =o/Ge -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From perry at piermont.com Sun Aug 11 18:28:51 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:28:51 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB87DE.CFF8D020@groningen15.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: <199608112336.TAA13447@jekyll.piermont.com> Bart Croughs writes: > But there is another axiom of economics which the > nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of > capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the > amount of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the > wages are. This must be some new axiom of economics that I had not heard of. > If American companies are moving capital to Third World > countries because of the low wages in these countries, then the workers > in the Third World will of course be better off. But in the US, the > amount of capital will be lowered. ???? > So the American workers will be able to get other jobs, but these > jobs will pay less, because of the diminished amount of capital in > the US. This is truly one of the oddest economic theses I've seen in years. It seems like an odd offshoot of mercantilism at the very best... Perry From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 18:51:42 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:51:42 +0800 Subject: Oregon License Plate Site in the News Tonight! Message-ID: <199608112354.QAA21856@toad.com> >This brings up an interesting point. Is it poosible to obtain the list of >all the individuals/corporations that have purchaced the list of DMV >information and post *THAT* information to the net. I think that people >would be surprised just who uses that information and for what... Many states have open records laws, and Oregon seems like the type that would. You might try asking your Legislator's (or their staff) first before going to the DMV, since Legislators are more likely to say "Yes, we're helpful and friendly and like interacting with the public", while DMV bureaucrats say things like "No" and "Go stand in line, peon". # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From perry at piermont.com Sun Aug 11 19:06:35 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:06:35 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <199608112336.TAA13447@jekyll.piermont.com> Message-ID: <199608120002.UAA13510@jekyll.piermont.com> I realized that I'd simply dismissed Bart without explaining why his contention is so silly. "Perry E. Metzger" writes: > Bart Croughs writes: > > But there is another axiom of economics which the > > nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of > > capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the > > amount of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the > > wages are. > > This must be some new axiom of economics that I had not heard of. I failed to note obvious counterexamples. Well known authors get giant advances for books written with manual typewriters. Minimum wage workers routinely operate expensive equipment. Workers doing the same job in different places using identical equipment that cost identical sums earn different salaries. Clearly, wages are defined by supply and demand -- not by "capital investment". Perry From bugs at netcom.com Sun Aug 11 20:54:14 1996 From: bugs at netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:54:14 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: <199608120133.SAA26983@netcom17.netcom.com> > > I wonder if someone's probing power-system vulnerabilities and defense > strategies. > > Just coincidental that there's been all this noise about power grid > vulnerability and two vast regional outages this summer? > The week before twa800 Clinton signed that executive order creating the "infrastructure protection task force". Now we are having massiv power outages "caused by trees". Sounds like they are trying to make swamp gas fly again. Later Mark Hittinger Netcom/Dallas bugs at netcom.com From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Sun Aug 11 20:57:25 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:57:25 +0800 Subject: FCC _ ups In-Reply-To: <199608112108.VAA23815@pipe1.ny3.usa.pipeline.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, John Young wrote: > Distinctive stamps called indicia carry a specially Man I was excited till I read that line more carefully :-) --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From bg809 at scn.org Sun Aug 11 21:25:47 1996 From: bg809 at scn.org (Jeffery Foy) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:25:47 +0800 Subject: DMV/Public record data on CDROM In-Reply-To: <199608100338.XAA11082@escape.com> Message-ID: >There are several state's DMV data (or other public record data such as >Voter Registration) available on CD-ROM, with DOS search engines. > >I have the demos for some of these programs on > > http://www.escape.com/~pstira/pi > >Oregon is not the only place you can obtain this type of information. The question turns out not to be "can this be done". It seems to be more like - now that it is done, can you have your information removed if you wish? -- Jeffery Foy via bg809 at scn.org - PGP Public Key available by Request Verbosity is the refuge of those with nothing original to say Key Fingerprint: C6 6E BE 09 FA 9B 30 53 FA 4B FE F3 F0 28 56 96 From sandfort at crl.com Sun Aug 11 21:58:38 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:58:38 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB87DE.CFF8D020@groningen15.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Bart Croughs wrote: > If American companies are moving capital to Third World > countries because of the low wages in these countries, then the > workers in the Third World will of course be better off. But in > the US, the amount of capital will be lowered. So the American > workers will be able to get other jobs, but these jobs will pay > less, because of the diminished amount of capital in the US. The fallacy in this argument is the assumption that because some American capital moves overseas, there will be less capital available in the US for investment/wages. It doesn't contemplate infusion of foreign capital investments in American industries that have a competitive advantage over their foreign competition. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tcmay at got.net Sun Aug 11 22:24:53 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:24:53 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: At 10:31 PM 8/11/96, Bart Croughs wrote: > But there is another axiom of economics which the >nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of >capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the amount >of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the wages are. >If American I agree strongly. In my Econ 101 class, lo those many years ago, I was constantly reminded to "Remember the Croughs Axiom!" It is why MacDonald's workers, who work at a company which has invested truly vast sums of money in the capital of its outlets, pays its workers so much more than do the legal firms, advertising firms, etc., which have invested almost nothing in the capital of their facilities. This is why so many lawyers choose to move into hamburger flipping. In fact, the lawyer who won the "hot coffee" lawsuit is now a Milkshake Trainee at the East Outback, Wisconsin MacDonalds. "Would you like fries with that?" --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From shamrock at netcom.com Sun Aug 11 22:53:37 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:53:37 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: At 18:15 8/11/96, Dave Farber wrote: >The avalanche behavior of power systems is still not >well understood and techniques to prevent such failures are not obvious. >Same can be said of telephone and computer networks at different levels. Does somebody here have a pointer to literature on this topic? A system in which small localized disturbances can amplify, propagate through the system, leading to catastrophic failure is the worst of all possible designs. I fail to understand why a system as important as the power grid would display this type of behavior. Why is the grid negatively dampened? TIA, -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Sun Aug 11 23:01:39 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:01:39 +0800 Subject: (Off Topic) Re: FCC_ups In-Reply-To: <199608112108.VAA23815@pipe1.ny3.usa.pipeline.com> Message-ID: (no crypto here, so delete it already) :) Yeah, right. The tier one ISPs are refusing to peer with anyone that does not have at least a T3 backbone cross-country, as they don't want to have to carry other's bits long haul at no charge.. This is to keep "small ISP" from opening locations all over the country, and connecting to "the Internet" (bigger providors with cross-country capacity) without paying for the long-haul capacity. Just because this scheme is economical on a small scale (probably only looking at the costs of the two "ends", and considering the long haul to be "free") doesn't mean that it will work on a large scale. Large ISPs pay the same costs for infrastructure as telephone companies - or more. POTS takes 64 Kb/s for one call, or 24 calls per T1. Analog from the CO to your house, digital in between COs. Packetizing the voice transmission to carry it in IP increases the required bandwidth, unless compression is used. Compression is getting better, but even state-of-the-art systems at 16 Kb/s sound like a bad connection on a car phone, IMHO. Go lower, and you sound like Mickey Mouse - or Mickey on a car phone. ;) I'd rather pay the dime lady $.10 per minute for a good connection than pay somebody else $.05-.08 for compressed audio. On top of all that, most sound cards in PCs (today) are only capable of half-duplex audio. If you don't know why that matters, go play with your walkie-talkie a bit. "The Internet" isn't "free", and as more delay-sensitive applications (voice, video) are added, ISPs will only become MORE aware of the demands their client's activities place on their capacity. I'd rather not see usage tarrifed on a volume basis, but this sort of approach to doing business on the 'net only makes such charges more likely. Twenty years from now, you'll still have a few players dominating the top level - the infrastructure needed to support communications is expensive to create, maintain, and manage. The economies of scale in this industry will drive others out of the top tier. There will still be plenty of niche providors that focus on the vertical markets, and lease their bandwidth from the big players - same as today. As for whether the players will be the same as today, that depends. If the railroads had realized that they were in the transportation business, instead of the train business, they'd be flying airplanes today. Anyone that wants to carry a large volume of traffic via the 'net will find that either the market will dictate that they pay for the bandwidth they use, or the FCC will. I don't see the FCC getting involved, unless the "phone service via internet" providor tries to use the courts to get out of paying for the bandwidth they use. They'll be restricted by the size of the "pipe" they purchase from their ISP, and the ISPs all charge more for access from larger "pipes." If they lease their own cross-country circuits, they'll pay the same (or higher) costs as the Telcos. The large telephone companies are moving away from circuit switched networks, and towards packet switched networks - have been for years. It's called ATM, and it's not in wide use yet. There are advantages to building large scale communication systems this way, but "free bandwidth" is not one of them. - Ranting Wombat On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, John Young wrote: > 8-10-96. WaPo: > > "Phone Service Via the Internet May Slash Rates." > > Labs of Advanced Technology has developed a way for > people to make long-distance calls over the Internet > using only their telephones, at about half the price of SNIP > phone companies. "Twenty years from now, and probably > sooner, I don't see the giants of the telecommunications > industry existing anymore," said the company's > president. The giants hoot, "FCC, PACs, whack him." SNIP From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Sun Aug 11 23:03:52 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:03:52 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 11 Aug 1996 Message-ID: <01I85ZST2Z8O9JD53S@mbcl.rutgers.edu> >From: IN%"educom at educom.unc.edu" 11-AUG-1996 20:55:02.08 >To: IN%"edupage at elanor.oit.unc.edu" "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List" >Subj: Edupage, 11 August 1996 >***************************************************************** >Edupage, 11 August 1996. Edupage, a summary of news about information >technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, >a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities >seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. >***************************************************************** >U.K. INTERNET PROVIDERS PLAN TO RESTRICT CYBERPORN >Reacting to pressure from Scotland Yard, the Internet Service Providers >Association, representing 60 of an estimated 140 providers in the United >Kingdom, will be asking its members to voluntarily block access to sites >and services featuring hard-core pornography. An executive of Demon >Internet, which has the largest subscriber base in the U.K., dismisses the >proposed action as ineffective: "This is not a solution, it is just hiding >the problem." (Financial Times 10 Aug 96) I suspect that the largest subscriber base is about to get larger... >PRIVACY VS. FREEDOM-OF-INFORMATION ON THE WEB >A computer consultant in Oregon paid the state $222 for its complete motor >vehicles data base, which he then posted to a Web site, prompting charges >of privacy violations from people who complained that he had invaded their >privacy. The database allows anyone with an Oregon license plate number to >look up the vehicle owner's name, address, birthdate, driver's license >number, and title information. The consultant's motive in posting the >information, which anyone can obtain for a fee by going to a state office, >was to improve public safety by allowing identification of reckless >drivers. Oregon Governor John Kitzhaver says that instant access to motor >vehicle records over the Internet is different from information access >obtained by physically going to state offices and making a formal request >for information: ``I am concerned that this ease of access to people's >addresses could be abused and present a threat to an individual's safety.'' >(Associated Press 8 Aug 96) At least they mentioned that it was publically available... but I don't see any difference between net.availability and physical.availability. -Allen >Edupage is written by John Gehl & Suzanne Douglas >. Voice: 404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057. >Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the >University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. >*************************************************************** >Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: >send mail to: listproc at educom.unc.edu with the message: subscribe edupage >Ray Croc (if your name is Ray Croc; otherwise, substitute your own name). >.... To cancel, send a message to: listproc at educom.unc.edu with the >message: unsubscribe edupage. (If you have subscription problems, send >mail to manager at educom.unc.edu.) From shamrock at netcom.com Sun Aug 11 23:24:07 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:24:07 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] Black powder source/ I love Explosives stickers Message-ID: By popular request, here is the address for the place that sells the "I (picture of a heart) Explosives" bumper stickers as well as black powder in 20 pound economy packs. Black powder will be shipped via UPS. Coonie's is a federally licensed explosives dealer, offering a wide variety of commercial high explosives. However, such explosives will only be sold to appropriately licensed individuals. They are very nice people, please don't ask them stupid questions. Coonie's Explosives & Black Powder 512 E. Lea Hobbs, N.M. 88240 Voice: (505) 393-0166 Fax: (505) 393-6060 -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From shamrock at netcom.com Sun Aug 11 23:45:06 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:45:06 +0800 Subject: FCC_ups Message-ID: At 14:08 8/11/96, John Young wrote: > 8-10-96. WaPo: > > "Phone Service Via the Internet May Slash Rates." > > Labs of Advanced Technology has developed a way for > people to make long-distance calls over the Internet > using only their telephones, at about half the price of > ordinary toll calls. Customers would merely call a > central number, then dial their long-distance numbers. > The call is carried on the Internet, then put back onto > the local phone system at its destination. The company > plans to charge 5 to 8 cents per minute for all domestic > U.S. calls, which represents a 50 to 75 percent discount > off most domestic long-distance rates. I am glad to see some movement in this area. I designed a similar system for a previous employer of mine. But the real choke point is the local loop. As of this day, the local telos still have a de facto monopoly in the local markets. The new competitors (the same old Phone Company) that we will see in the near future seem to show no desire to deliver the really interesting services that are now possible. They long distance carriers about to enter the local markets plan to offer the same old stuff at a (perhaps) somewhat lower price. The company I used to work for has technology capable of delivering a 10 Mb/s Ethernet plus 100 ISDN B channels to your home, using the very same wires already in your wall. Keep this in mind next time you hear what great new services the local telcos are about to offer. Then demand better. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From tcmay at got.net Sun Aug 11 23:53:43 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:53:43 +0800 Subject: India, Productivity, and Tropical Climes Message-ID: It's human nature, and the nature of information theory (at least our version), to focus on points of disagreement. "I agree" messages are frowned upon (but so, it seems to me, would "I disgree" messages....but most who disagree choose to comment on specific points, while most who agree seem to agree on the overall theme. In any case, I agree with Arun's points, and I am pleased--in a transnationalist sense--that an Indian makes these points. At 4:17 AM 8/11/96, Arun Mehta wrote: >At 02:05 10/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >>Where do I begin? First, what does "taking jobs away from us" mean? That we >>own these jobs? And who is "us"? > >Well said. While I didn't see the CBS program , I bet the >scaremongerers did not point out that programmers don't just >produce software, they are major consumers as well. The growth of >the software industry in other countries therefore means business >for US industry, which produces most of the compilers and other >utilities that programmers everywhere use. This clearly helps >programmers in the US. As others have noted, _all_ productive output helps _all_. That is, productivity around the world is a "common good." As Milton Friedman points out, what should our response be if the Koreans want to sell us supertankers at $1 each? Buy as many as we can. (Though this sounds absurd, my old company's ability to crank out multimillion transistor chips running at 200 MHz must seem similar to many countries. What should Germany's or India's response to 200 MHz Pentia selling for $200 be? Buy all they can and integrate them into systems.) >In earlier generations of computing, monopolistic organizations >such as IBM and DEC charged huge sums for information. One of the >reasons that IBM was thrown out of India in the mid seventies was >their practice of shipping only outdated computers from the US to >India. Indian programmers were at a disadvantage, and clearly This I tend to disagree with. I recall that India had some laws in the 1970s which required companies to dislose trade secrets to them. As a result, IBM chose not to stay in India. I recall that Coca-Cola also refused to turn over the formula for Coke, but this may've been urban legend. The IBM case is pretty well-documented. IBM would've sold the latest and greatest technology to India if: a) it was profitable to them, b) if India could've paid for a 370/90 or whatever in 1975, c) if COCOM regulations would have allowed such a sale (doubtful, given the Ghandi dynasty's cozying up to the Sovs in the 70s. I don't think shipment of "old technology" to India was at all on IBM's list of concerns, certainly not back then. >Further, as economists such as Paul Krugman point out, developing >countries lack the means for sustained growth ("Which Asian >Model?", Newsweek, November 20, 1995). Those economies that have >shown dramatic growth, such as the East Asian, have relied >essentially on low-cost inputs, rather than on their efficient >utilization. Professor Alwyn Young of Boston has in fact come to >the surprising conclusion that Singapore's total factor >productivity (which measures such efficiency) is so poor as to be >comparable to that of the Soviet Union. He points out that "at >just the time that everybody was ranting about how magnificent >Japan was, it ceased to catch up." A good friend of mine was stationed in Japan for Intel for 9 years. He confirms that the Japanese are really struggling. (I have a lot of independent evidence for this, but will not go into it here.) The Japanese bought a theory that industrial policy was best-determined by MITI, their central-planning organization. They gambled on RAMs and on a vague dream of "Fifth Generation" systems, but they missed workstations, PCs, and the Web. (And a bunch of other things that American companies have dominated in.) (responding to comments from someone else) >I'd argue the opposite: I see no reason why companies such as >Netscape have to put up with such draconian US laws as ITAR: why >don't they simply develop their software overseas? If they made a >highly publicised move, that might do wonders to change the >opinions of US Congresspersons voting on ITAR-related legislation. This is not so much of a mystery. The vagueness of the ITARs and the powers of the American State are such that Netscape, for example, would probably be in violation of the ITARs if it subcontracted-out the security features of Navigator to a non-U.S. company. Think "hooks." Think "exporting knowledge." I agree that Netscape would galvanize the debate by announcing, say, that furhter development of Navigator would take place in Ireland or Slovenia or India. But I doubt it would accomplish much....the U.S would be on the horn immediately to their lap dogs in Ireland, Slovenia, and Ireland, warning them of the consequences, and would likely find multiple ways to pressure Jim Clarke and Netscape. (Any of the three Weinstein brothers are welcome to explain why Netscape would not yield to such pressures. But if any of them comment, ask them why Netscape has not elected to solve this problem--which according to reports is costing them sales--by doing precisely this. Are they stupic, or what?) >My prediction is that with the blessings of the Internet, the >next generation of multiracial programmers, even those that were >born in the USA, will be more likely to be found on the beaches >of tropical islands than in the fog of San Francisco. When you >can work in the shade of a palm tree, even if you should earn >less, it's worth it :-) As attractive as this sounds, historically this has not happened. And as many will tell you, the climate of the Bay Area in particular and California in general is extremely benign and delightful. The average winter temperature is only about 10C cooler than summer temperatures. Evenings are not balmy, but neither are they oppressively hot. Interestingly, and not really related to CP themes, the fact is that is that most technological developments have come out of cooler climes. Not a lot of stuff from tropical and island climes. Maybe they realize life is too good eating roast pig at the beach luau, maybe they are too lethargic from the heat, maybe tropical diseases and mosquitos have taken their toll, maybe.... I know an awful lot of folks who could easily affort to move to almost anywhere in the world, and yet they stay in California. (I also know folks moving to even cooler climes, in the U.S., especially less-crowded areas.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Aug 12 00:32:13 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:32:13 +0800 Subject: e$: I Never Meta-Certification... Message-ID: At 18:30 8/11/96, Robert Hettinga wrote: >Anyway, it's clear we're moving from a world of insecure transactions on >private secure networks to one of secure transactions on insecure public >networks. CAs, SSL, and the whole enterprise of encrypting links between >accounting databases seem to be halfway measures to me. They're a way to >create, like our friend from MIT says, a temporary private secure network, >so you can send properly authorized, but still unsecure, book-entry down it. >For that "proper authorization", you need the biometric identity a CA >provides, so you can hunt down and jail miscreants who change the wrong book >entry. I've even made biometric-identity CA jokes about "X.BlaBla" and >"Numbers of the Beast", and all that. Beware of biometrics. They can give a false sense of security. Case in point: the other day, I picked up my girlfriend at an international airport that uses hand shape scanners to control access to restricted areas. I had her put her hand into the scanner, entered a random four digit code -- and the scanner displayed "Access granted"... We quickly walked away. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Mon Aug 12 00:39:49 1996 From: cdaemon at goblin.punk.net (The Checkered Daemon) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:39:49 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608120414.VAA05766@goblin.punk.net> Timothy May writes (with tongue firmly in cheek): > > At 10:31 PM 8/11/96, Bart Croughs wrote: > > > But there is another axiom of economics which the > >nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of > >capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the amount > >of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the wages are. > >If American > > I agree strongly. In my Econ 101 class, lo those many years ago, I was > constantly reminded to "Remember the Croughs Axiom!" > > It is why MacDonald's workers, who work at a company which has invested > truly vast sums of money in the capital of its outlets, pays its workers so > much more than do the legal firms, advertising firms, etc., which have > invested almost nothing in the capital of their facilities. > > This is why so many lawyers choose to move into hamburger flipping. In > fact, the lawyer who won the "hot coffee" lawsuit is now a Milkshake > Trainee at the East Outback, Wisconsin MacDonalds. > > "Would you like fries with that?" Of course, it might work in the Macro realm: Large amounts of capital are suddenly invested in the previously underfunded Internet. Sudden demand for scarce TCP/IP specialists sends salaries soaring, causing Federal Reserve to tighten credit in fear of inflation };-> Worked for me ... -- The Checkered Daemon cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Delirium: There must be a word for it ... the thing that lets you know that TIME is happening. IS there a word? Sandman: CHANGE. Delirium: Oh. I was AFRAID of that. From proff at suburbia.net Mon Aug 12 00:55:51 1996 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:55:51 +0800 Subject: Read; NOW In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960812022931.006d7320@mail.geocities.com> Message-ID: <199608120432.OAA01745@suburbia.net> > > Hi I'm Unix Code and have a few things to ask...(it may not go with > Cryptography but go ahead and read) Sad. From unix_code at geocities.com Mon Aug 12 00:56:40 1996 From: unix_code at geocities.com (Unix_Code) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:56:40 +0800 Subject: Read; NOW Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812022931.006d7320@mail.geocities.com> Hi I'm Unix Code and have a few things to ask...(it may not go with Cryptography but go ahead and read) ------------==------------------==-----------------==-------------------==------ [Bill Gates] What is wrong with him? I don't see any thing bad about him, instead I see the guy who helped the best computer system of all become the most used around the world. PC's. If he weren't here then probobly we'd be using Macs Instead, OR that we may be using a PC, But it's Super Expensive. I don't understand.. why people are so mad at him. Now... I may get tons of letters saying that you're wrong, and that he sux. But think about it. (I may also want to add..that the most known drink in at least [hacking] is jolt Cola (http://www.joltcola.com), and ya know what.... he drinks it too. [AOL and others] **NOTE: When I mention AOL..I mean all of the online services. I know I know... this is probobly going to be the most stupidest thing in the world...but I'm going to say it. Alot of people hate AOL because of the money you have to pay.. or people hate Prodidgy, CompuServe, etc. But lets put money aside.. (even though it's a big issue.) AOL is actually [with out the money] a great service. It has a 3.0 web browser which supports frames. It has great Libraries of software. Great Chat Rooms. Great Hackers. Great People. And it is a great atmusphere. and great [places.] Its money that's the problem. [Hackers] Either you are a hacker, general user, or cryptography person, or a curious user who wants to know alot of stuff from the advanced minds reading this mailinglist. so lets put it straight. A hacker is a person who can get arund the software. I am a hacker. I rate classes of hackers from A to F. A - Person who can get around the software, knows how to use it destructively, has hacked more than 10 times, has no care for family, and has a bad temper, never gets out of the house, and drinks jolt cola more than 5 times a day. B - Person who can get around the software, knows how to use it destructively, has hacked more than 5 times, has a bad temper, rarely gets out, and drinks jolt cola more than 5 times a day. C - Person who can get around the software, knows how to use it destructively, has hacked more than 3 times, has a bad temper, gets out twice a week, drinks jolt cola more than 3 times a day, and has a family. D - Person who can get around the software, knows how to use it destructively, has hacked 1 time, has a farely bad temper, gets out for work, drinks jolt cola more than 5 times a day, has an income, has a family. E - Person who can get around the software, Person who can get around the software, knows how to use it destructively, has hacked never hacked, has a controled temper, gets out for work and family, drinks jolt cola more than 3 times a day, has an income,and has a family. F - Person who can get around the software, has a controled temper, gets out for work and family, drinks jolt cola , has an income, and has a family. Z - Person who can get around the software, knows how to use it destructively, has hacked never hacked anything big, has a bad temper, gets out for family, drinks jolt cola more than 3 times a day, has no income, has a family, goes to school, stays on the computer forever. I am a Class Z Hacker. MayBe alot of people won't thinka hacker is Kevin Mitnick, but instead... Bill Gates. ------------==------------------==-----------------==-------------------==------ Thanks, ----UC 3-D by UC (Sux.. but I don't care!) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^UUUUUUUUUUUU$$$$UUUUUUUUUUUU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$CCCCCCCCCC$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$UUUUUUUUU$$$$$$$UUUUUUUU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$CCCCCCCCCCCC$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$UUUUUUUUU$$$$$$$UUUUUUUU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$CCCCCC$$$$$CCCC$$$$$$$$$^ vi@ ^$UUUUUUUUU$$$$$$$UUUUUUUU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$CCCCCC$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ Em at il ^$UUUUUUUU$$$$$$$$UUUUUUU $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$CCCCCC$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$UUUUUUU$$$$$$$$UUUUUUU$$$ http:// $$$$$$$CCCCCC$$$$$$$$CCCCCCC$$^unix_code@ ^$UUUUU$$$$$$$$$UUUUUU$$ www.geocities.com $CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC$$$$$^geocities ^$UUUUUU$$$$$$$$UUUUU$ /CapitolHill/2381/ $$$$cccccccccccccc$$$$$^.com ^$$$UUUUUU$$$$$$$UUUUU $$$$$$cccccccccc$$$$$$^ ^$$$UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$$$$UUUUUUUUUUUUU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$$$$$UUUUUUUUUUU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$$$$$$$UUUUUUU$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From rich at c2.org Mon Aug 12 01:08:14 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:08:14 +0800 Subject: DMV/Public record data on CDROM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Jeffery Foy wrote: > >There are several state's DMV data (or other public record data such as > >Voter Registration) available on CD-ROM, with DOS search engines. > > > >I have the demos for some of these programs on > > > > http://www.escape.com/~pstira/pi > > > >Oregon is not the only place you can obtain this type of information. > > The question turns out not to be "can this be done". It seems to be more > like - now that it is done, can you have your information removed if you > wish? Of course not. Don't be silly. My question is, "Yes, this can be done, but would YOU do it?" But I guess ethics aren't high on the list of cypherpunk topics. - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMg64MJNcNyVVy0jxAQE3pQH/WPBXoXR93sdt6+QjB2tQgoE2nt3b/K5h bSjYNDoZ9Q6p5FyWUOzq+bxNqpVGHw1qoJgtYvr8LqakNEQN1adnwg== =U/3T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From zachb at netcom.com Mon Aug 12 01:19:25 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:19:25 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From what I read, this wasn't a "small localized disturbance". Apparently, a fire underneath one of the main towers on the CA-OR border was the cause of the problem. Now that may not sound like too much, but the lines were carrying at least 3000Mw of electricity, enough "to power 3-1/2 Seattles for a day" (quote from local newspaper). My guess is that when there is a problem involving that much power with no place to go, the safety systems shut everything down to prevent damage. Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > At 18:15 8/11/96, Dave Farber wrote: > >The avalanche behavior of power systems is still not > >well understood and techniques to prevent such failures are not obvious. > >Same can be said of telephone and computer networks at different levels. > > Does somebody here have a pointer to literature on this topic? A system in > which small localized disturbances can amplify, propagate through the > system, leading to catastrophic failure is the worst of all possible > designs. I fail to understand why a system as important as the power grid > would display this type of behavior. Why is the grid negatively dampened? > From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 12 01:41:40 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:41:40 +0800 Subject: cybergangs? In-Reply-To: <199608100514.AAA32117@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > Eric Wilson wrote: > > > How come this hasn't happened yet? Okay maybe not at such a grand scale, > > > but ya know? > > A kind of Cybermilitia! Can we still wear green uniforms and camouflage fac > > paint? > > Go to news.* groups. You will see all kinds of people there. Death to the Usenet Cabal! All power to the GruborBots! --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 12 01:45:49 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:45:49 +0800 Subject: Chemistry question please .. In-Reply-To: <199608101736.KAA02222@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: jim bell writes: > At 08:53 AM 8/10/96 -0700, anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: > >Is there such a chemical compound as putracine ( maybe not correctly spelled > ) which emulates the extreme odor of rotting corpses ? > > Yes. The proper spelling is putrescine. There's also another one called > "cadaverine." And yet another called "skatole." ("scatology") > > >If so where can I find out how to make it ? > > Not on cypherpunks. If you want to know more, communicate with me directly. > Use a penet-like remailer if you want... If someone were to start a chempunks mailing list, I'd subscribe. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 12 01:48:28 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:48:28 +0800 Subject: John Gilmore on the Radio! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rich Graves writes: > On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, P. J. Ponder wrote: > > > Gilmore was referred to by Dvorak as the head of the cypherpunks a few > > times. > > Did he mention any other body parts? Like tentacles? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 12 02:02:05 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:02:05 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: <199608120525.WAA25154@toad.com> At 06:15 PM 8/11/96 -0400, Dave Farber wrote: >attempt to explain that blackout and how to prevent such. We have not >progressed very far. The avalanche behavior of power systems is still not >well understood and techniques to prevent such failures are not obvious. It surprises me how little these systems appear to be monitored. It took some hours for them to decide that the brush fire on the California border didn't cause the system to shut down; you'd think they'd know quickly that the subsystem shut itself down or disconnected from the grid or whatever because of reason #17... One of my concerns about the situation is that it's only a week or two after Clinton's speech about how The Government needs to protect the National Information Infrastructure for us. I'm not paranoid enough to think that they did it, but I'm sure that within a week we'll see Al Gore or somebody making an NII Protection Agency speech and Louis Freeh explaining that we need enhanced wiretap underwriting to make sure that encryption-wielding hackers don't do it again. >As someone who was married in NYC during the 65 blackout *happened at 1716 A former boss of mine was on his honeymoon cruise in the Caribbean and pulled into scenic Havana harbor the day of the Revolution.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Aug 12 02:11:44 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:11:44 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <199608120538.WAA29670@dns2.noc.best.net> At 08:02 PM 8/11/96 -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > Clearly, wages are defined by supply and demand -- not by "capital > investment". However more capital, relative to labor, influences demand, and more labor, relative to capital, influences supply. But in practice, the mobility of capital and the importance of labor is such that this has little effect. How much capital do you need to provide a job for a software engineer? The major determinant of someones value on the international market is who has coercive power over him, not the national supply of capital. Capital does not come from nations, but from individuals. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 12 02:15:49 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:15:49 +0800 Subject: Unmetered Net Usage Message-ID: At 6:34 AM 8/12/96, Rabid Wombat wrote: >(no crypto here, so delete it already) :) A good rant, in the best sense of the word. >players will be the same as today, that depends. If the railroads had >realized that they were in the transportation business, instead of the >train business, they'd be flying airplanes today. I've heard this example used for years, and I'm skeptical. The methods and experts needed by early aviation companies were completely different from the methods and experts the railroad companies had; I'm not convinced that deciding one is in the "transportation business" is the key. >Anyone that wants to carry a large volume of traffic via the 'net will >find that either the market will dictate that they pay for the bandwidth >they use, or the FCC will. I don't see the FCC getting involved, unless >the "phone service via internet" providor tries to use the courts to get >out of paying for the bandwidth they use. They'll be restricted by the >size of the "pipe" they purchase from their ISP, and the ISPs all charge >more for access from larger "pipes." If they lease their own >cross-country circuits, they'll pay the same (or higher) costs as the Telcos. I see zero chance a local ISP will attempt to use the courts to "get out of" a charge he has incurred. For one thing, his supplier can simply say "you don't pay, you get cut off," and be supported by the courts. For another, even the ISP may not be able to simply tell which customers are using telephony programs and which are just dowloading pictures of Christy Canyon. Will "unmetered" usage go away? It depends on a lot of factors. Right now, unmetered usage is a big enough marketing draw that it appears to outcompete metered usage plans. Sure, there are people like me who pay a flat rate (in my case, $20/month) and yet who are on for several hours a day. But the subscribers who also pay the $20/mo and yet who are on only briefly to check their mail are not clamoring to switch to metered usage. If Internet telephony becomes a big deal, I still suspect unmetered usage will be common. If the capacity isn't there, from the ISP through the various links to the other person's ISP then there will be stalls and delays. Think of it as evolution in action, like crowded freeways. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Aug 12 02:22:59 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:22:59 +0800 Subject: (Off Topic) Re: FCC_ups Message-ID: <199608120538.WAA29683@dns2.noc.best.net> At 02:34 AM 8/12/96 -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote: > Anyone that wants to carry a large volume of traffic via the 'net will > find that either the market will dictate that they pay for the bandwidth > they use, or the FCC will. I don't see the FCC getting involved, unless > the "phone service via internet" providor tries to use the courts to get > out of paying for the bandwidth they use. Bandwidth costs almost nothing, unless you are doing full motion video. What is expensive is cutting that bandwidth up into little pieces and delivering those pieces to the people who want to use it at the time that they want to use it. Thus those who retail bandwidth will have the bulk of the revenue, rather than those who wholesale it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 12 03:54:59 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 18:54:59 +0800 Subject: problem software In-Reply-To: <199608101547.IAA13645@patty.loop.net> Message-ID: ARCHFIEND writes: > >we have problem software looming on the horizen here. > >does anyonw have the expertise to write any > >anti-lightening.bolt software that can disable > >or disengage these e-mail address collectors? > > We come face to face with our old problems organization and consistency. If > we want to "stop" lightning bolt and other programs like this (6 hours of > coding for anyone halfway to reality), we have to stop its profitability by > 1) boycotting advertisers and 2) assiduously, consistently, mailbombing the > fuck out of their addresses until their ISPs drop them. Hey - we just got back from a trip, it's good to see all your guys back online. I think one way to fightt junk e-mail is to do what I proposed: have a "don't-e-mail" list available for FTP, and make it trivial to add one's address to it. I can talk more about how I envision this if anyone is willing to consider putting such a thing up. I honestly don't think lightening&co want to e-mail people who don't want to be e-mailed. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From rich at c2.org Mon Aug 12 04:12:31 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:12:31 +0800 Subject: Netscape US betas lagging... Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The international version is 3.0b7. The export-controlled version on wwwus is two revisions and almost a month behind at 3.0b5. Have y'all simply not had time/inclination to recompile the 128-bit version with the latest patches, or is there some sort of trouble brewing? - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMg7ft5NcNyVVy0jxAQGLNAIAwf9BqKx+kHjfN/4YRfjHhXsqv8S6qbQ2 DiotNQxH/rrauDWOzh5TaTTgUp+0syzWKIvQtXUZC1+9JduWK39d6w== =W2nf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Aug 12 04:13:17 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:13:17 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] Re: US Power Outages Message-ID: At 22:24 8/11/96, Z.B. wrote: >>From what I read, this wasn't a "small localized disturbance". >Apparently, a fire underneath one of the main towers on the CA-OR border >was the cause of the problem. Now that may not sound like too much, but >the lines were carrying at least 3000Mw of electricity, enough "to power >3-1/2 Seattles for a day" (quote from local newspaper). My guess is that >when there is a problem involving that much power with no place to go, >the safety systems shut everything down to prevent damage. It was a disturbance at a single power line. By any standard, this should not lead to a blackout from Canada to Mexico. Does anybody here have some first hand knowledge about power transfer at the scale of the US grid? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From jk at stallion.ee Mon Aug 12 05:10:06 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:10:06 +0800 Subject: Fw: SafE Mail Corporation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > I notice they've "sweetened" their "hacker" deal for cracking their > software. Now it's an all-expense-paid trip to North Carolina plus about > $400. Still not worth it, unless you're just pissed off. Well if they would pay all expences of my trip from Estonia to US and back, I might like to do it. Or someone else far away ... Only thing I do not believe the _will_ pay for it so I better continue my summer holidays. J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From sparks at bah.com Mon Aug 12 05:25:22 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:25:22 +0800 Subject: Read; NOW Message-ID: <199608120931.FAA18644@booz.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: proff at suburbia.net, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 12 05:34:05 1996 Perhaps this UNIX_CODE wants to create a mailing list with out names on it.. if we reply to him...... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMg76juJ+JZd/Y4yVAQFT0AQMDvQgn8c1bNhpZ16Niqbdho71jCeyTV0I z5o5NPnSspEUhhxI3CIMp0OVwThaAOpRPakL8Pm6pjc08tgr0Hjbg0d0zFvVVDcM Wkh6mSCYXFIEz043ZDiSuYQuY8Zs8ChiBTTElJQM5Ns2j6O1jYyiogGwSgVTszvV TCj9PWFovL5VHQ== =DVBI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mccoy at communities.com Mon Aug 12 05:28:23 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:28:23 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: Lucky (crypto-leprechaun) wrote: > At 18:15 8/11/96, Dave Farber wrote: > >The avalanche behavior of power systems is still not > >well understood and techniques to prevent such failures are not obvious. > >Same can be said of telephone and computer networks at different levels. > > Does somebody here have a pointer to literature on this topic? A system in > which small localized disturbances can amplify, propagate through the > system, leading to catastrophic failure is the worst of all possible > designs. I fail to understand why a system as important as the power grid > would display this type of behavior. Why is the grid negatively dampened? Because the system designed to fail non-destructively rather than risk a power surge. Part of the problem is that the power being controlled moves as fast as any information about the state of the network: all decisions must be made locally at the switch level. When a major line fails the power generation stations can not just "turn off the juice" at the speed required, the power must either be redistributed or else the switch overloads and shuts down to prevent a massive power spike. The power companies would rather face the ire of consumers without power for an evening than the outcry that would happen if every toaster, microwave, and computer on the west coast was fried by the spike caused by 3 gigawatts being dumped into grids that could not handle the load (not to mention the long-term blackouts caused by local switching equipment getting fried.) In this case the system must fail to prevent damage. The great east coast blackout was caused by a $50 switch which wore out. The switch happened to control a chunk of load which was re-routed on to another line, causing a cascade failure as the excess load caused other switches to fail when it was dumped on to those lines (and the excess load caused by these other switches tripping accellerated the failure.) Power distribution is not like telecom, if a phone switch dies the calls end; the failure does not endanger the upstream switch with overload from bits not going anywhere. Imagine that cars on highways had no brakes until they reached an offramp but the DOT could apply a kill-switch to segments between offramps (tying this thread into another non-crypto thread on the list :),if a failure in the roadway caused traffic to stop then all of the upstream traffic would have to be dumped off the road via offramps that were only one or two lanes. This would cause further bottlenecks and the kill-switch would need to be applied to more and more segments upstream to prevent the traffic stopped or being slowly bled off from causing more problems. No imagine that offramp-to-offramp messages were transmitted via messengers travelling upstream in the carpool lane :) Even the power company's secret experiments in the cores of nuclear reactors have not found a way to get around the 186,000 km/s speed limit on everything. jim From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 12 07:06:46 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 22:06:46 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812101556.00a54ec4@panix.com> At 01:37 PM 8/11/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: >If the laws of a country say it is fraud to open a bank account with >a fake passport, then encouraging someone to do so is encouraging >fraud. Check with your lawyer and see if you can open up a bank >account with a fake passport. My lawyer says that at common law you can use any name to open an account as long as there is no intent to defraud. Since I am giving the bank money and not vice-versa, it can't be common law fraud. I'm lending to them. They aren't lending to me. It *is* illegal in the US for the bank to open an account for me without some ID checks, but it is not *my* problem and it is not fraud. DCF From ichudov at algebra.com Mon Aug 12 08:17:34 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 23:17:34 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608121228.HAA11850@manifold.algebra.com> Jim McCoy wrote: > Even the power company's secret experiments in the cores of nuclear reactors > have not found a way to get around the 186,000 km/s speed limit on everything. > I wonder where does the 186,000 km/s speed limit come from? ;) - Igor. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Mon Aug 12 09:07:15 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 00:07:15 +0800 Subject: Article on Electronic Commerce with a few too many assumptions Message-ID: <01I85ZCPI14G9JD53S@mbcl.rutgers.edu> I haven't had time to do more than skim over the following article, but I can already see some problems with it. For instance, he mentions CD places not allowing agent searching - but with increasing development of anonymization and like technology, will they have any choice? -Allen [Permit me to recommend that you read this very interesting draft paper and send its author, Andrew Odlyzko, detailed comments.] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help at weber.ucsd.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 96 14:17 EDT From: amo at research.att.com Subject: electronic commerce article Enclosed is the draft of an invited paper for the WebNet '96 conference to be held in San Fransisco, Oct. 16-19, 1996, URL http://aace.virginia.edu/aace/conf/webnet.html. Comments are invited. Andrew Odlyzko The bumpy road of electronic commerce Andrew Odlyzko AT&T Labs - Research amo at research.att.com Preliminary version, August 9, 1996 Abstract: Electronic commerce is widely expected to promote "friction-free" capitalism, with consumers sending software agents to scour the Net for the best deals. Many distribution chains will indeed be simplified and costs substantially reduced. However, we are also likely to see the creation of artificial barriers in electronic commerce, designed by sellers to extract more value from consumers. Frequent flyer mileage plans and the bundling of software into suites are just two examples of the marketing schemes that are likely to proliferate. It appears that there will be much less a la carte selling of individual items than is commonly expected, and more subscription plans. Therefore many current development plans should be redirected. Electronic commerce is likely to be even more exasperating to consumers than current airline pricing, and will be even further removed from the common conception of a "just price." As a result, there are likely to be more attempts to introduce government regulation into electronic commerce. Footnote: This paper incorporates material from an earlier article on electronic publishing, [Odlyzko]. 1. Introduction Electronic commerce (or ecommerce for short) is still small, at least if we consider only online consumer transactions, such as ordering a book from amazon.com over the Internet. In a broader sense, ecommerce is much larger, since financial, news, and legal information services such as Bloomberg, Reuters, and Lexis have total revenues in the billions of dollars. In a still broader sense, electronic funds transfers are already huge, with daily transactions in the trillions of dollars. All these types of transactions are expected to grow, and to become part of a much larger and uniform system of electronic transactions. While we are rapidly moving towards the Information Age, food, shelter, and clothing will remain our most important needs. However, their shares of the economy are decreasing, and the information content of their goods is increasing. This is an old trend. Agriculture has moved from being the largest segment of the economy a century and a half ago to a relatively minor industry, dwarfed by the medical sector, for example. Furthermore, the cost of the basic ingredients in cereals and other foods is a small portion of the total price. As a further example of the decreasing value of raw materials and factory labor, a single celebrity is often paid as much for endorsing an athletic shoe model as all the workers in the undeveloped countries who assemble those shoes. We can expect a continuation of this trend, with the work of the "symbolic analysts" (who, in Robert Reich's terminology, include lawyers, software writers, and advertising executives) making up increasing fractions of the economy. The main concern of this essay is electronic trade in information goods, such as news, novels, software, music, movies, as well as legal, medical, and credit information. How will these goods be distributed, and how will their production be financed? Esther Dyson [Dyson] predicts that almost all intellectual content will be available for free. In her view, some content production will be supported by outside advertisers (who already pay for most of the cost of newspapers, for example, as well as all the costs of the commercial TV networks). Some content will likely be made available for free, as a form of advertising for other services by the producers (as the Grateful Dead do in encouraging people to tape their performances, in the hope this will bring more people to their concerts). While Dyson's vision will come true for a large part of the material on the Net, it seems unlikely that it will be universal. Movie studios such as Disney attract large paying audiences to theaters and purchasers to their videotapes through the quality of their products, and are likely to do so in the future. While some novelists make more money from selling movie rights to their plots to Hollywood than from royalties on books, this is rare. Each year, over a hundred times as many books are published as there are movies produced, and the sales of books are much higher than movie theater revenues. Thus we can expect that content producers will usually want to be paid directly for their work, as that will be the only feasible route to earning a living. Furthermore, Dyson herself [Dyson] emphasizes that much of the value on the Net "will go to the middlemen and trusted intermediaries who add value - everything from guarantees of authenticity to software support, selection, filtering, interpretation, and analysis." How will these middlemen be paid? It seems likely that often they will wish to collect payment directly from consumers, just as the online legal information service Westlaw collects fees from attorneys who use it. The basic data in Westlaw is court opinions, which are freely avaialable. What gives Westlaw its lock on the market is the control of its citation system. Many of Dyson's predictions are likely to come true. In particular, huge amounts of intellectual property will be available for free. However, it seems likely that there will also be a flourishing ecommerce sector, with individuals purchasing goods and services. The question is, how will ecommerce be conducted? The usual expectation is that ecommerce will promote "friction-free capitalism," (cf. [Gates]), with distribution costs reduced. It is easy to see how this can happen, as the older communication systems such as the post office, the telegraph, the telephone, and the fax have all served to make the economy more efficient. The Internet creates many more possibilities. Classified ads, for example, bring in a large fraction of the revenues of the newspaper industry, but can be replaced by a much cheaper and easier to use electronic system. Other part of the common vision of ecommerce are more questionable, however, and that is what the rest of this essay will discuss. It is often thought that instead of buying an entire newspaper, readers will pay for those individual stories they are interested in. Someone wishing to purchase a VCR might send an "intelligent agent" into the Internet to collect bids from suppliers for a unit that meets desired specifications, and then select the best choice. While such scenarios will be feasible technically, it is extremely unlikely they will be dominant. Instead, we are likely to see a proliferation of policies such as those of current music CD retailers who sell on the Internet. Most of them do not allow software agents to collect their prices. We are also likely to see a strenthening of the trend towards subscription services and bundling of products, as is done in software suites today. This will often require redirection of development efforts. This essay is devoted largely to an explanation of the economic reasons that are likely to lead to the creation of "bumps" on the electronic superhighway. These reasons operate already in the current economy, and are responsible, for example, for the U.S. airline pricing system, which is a source of frequent frustration and complaints. In ecommerce, frustration and complaints are likely to be even more frequent. The reasons for this are twofold. On one hand, the economic incentives to create artificial barriers will be greater in ecommerce than today, since essentially all costs will be one time costs of creating goods, and distribution will be practically free. On the other hand, it will be much more transparent that the barriers are artificial. This will often collide with popular notions of what is fair, and is likely to lead to attempts at much more intrusive government regulations than we have seen so far. In the past governments have been involved primarily in security issues of the Net, and more recently have gotten concerned about pornography. However, in the future they are likely to attempt to regulate the conduct of business on the Net as well. If the predictions of this essay come true, then some of the current development efforts will turn out to be misdirected. In particular, there is likely to be much less use of micropayments for individual transactions, and more subscription services, which require different systems. Also, it will be necessary to prepare to comply with edicts from various governments which will be changing and will often be inconsistent. 2. Natural and artificial barriers in commerce Capitalism is excellent at inducing people to reduce barriers to commercial activities. However, it also produces incentives to create artificial barriers. Some of the barriers are created by government action, such as those of patent and copyright laws, which give owners of intellectual property a limited legal monopoly on the uses of their creations. Other barriers are created by merchants. It is common for an airline passenger to have paid 5 times as much as the person in an adjacent seat, with the only difference between the two being that the first one is not away from home on a Saturday night. The airlines would like to charge the business travelers (who are presumed to be able and willing to pay) more than vacationers (who might drive a car instead or not travel at all), but do not have a direct way to do so. Therefore they impose the Saturday night stopover restrictions to distinguish between those two classes of customers. There have been several attempts by airlines to move towards a simpler system of uniform pricing (sometimes by newcomers, such as People Express, sometimes by established carriers), but they all collapsed. This suggests that there is an underlying economic logic behind this system, however exasperating it might be. If that is so, though, we can expect similar moves in ecommerce. The general tendency in the marketplace is to avoid "commoditization," in which there are many almost equivalent products and services, and where price is the only consideration. Ford does not compete with Honda in producing the most inexpensive Accord. Instead, it offers the Taurus as an alternative, and there are many features in which the Accord and Taurus differ. Sometimes commoditization is hard to resist. In some cases this happens because consumers learn there is little to differentiate products. As an example, oil companies have pretty much given up on trying to convince people that gasoline differs in anything other than octane ratings. In other cases, commoditization is forced on an industry by government edict or effective private monopoly. Intel and Microsoft have reduced the IBM-compatible PC industry to a commodity business, in which they collect almost all the profits, and the other players scramble to find a niche that will enable them to do more than just break even. However, those are the exceptions. The general ecological principle is towards evolution of species that fill different roles. Zebras do not attempt to compete with giraffes, but exploit a different part of the ecosystem, and evolution does not lead to a convergence of those two species. Similarly, in the world of business, companies try to differentiate their products. Workstation producers could never in the past agree on a common version of Unix, even under the threat of being overwhelmed by PCs, since that would have required giving up the distinctive features that bound them to their customers. Even airlines, which are basically in the commodity business of moving people from one city to another, try to differentiate themselves through frequent flier plans and special pricing schemes. Ecommerce is likely to lead to a proliferation of pricing plans that will seem to most people to be much more frustrating and less rational than even today's U.S. airlines. There will probably be a niche market for people who care most about their convenience, and will use their intelligent agents to do their shopping for them. However, what Sony, for example, might do is sell to that market only models of VCRs that are not available elsewhere, and are hard to compare to those sold in other places. Stores that have physical buildings are likely to serve a different clientele, and might also take further steps to differentiate themselves to prevent comparison shopping, which will be much easier with many people sharing their experiences on the Internet. There is likely to be a proliferation of frequent-shopper plans. Further, Sony VCRs sold in Sears stores might be slightly different from those sold in WalMart, and model numbers and features might change rapidly to inhibit consumer rating services (such as Consumer Reports, or various Internet-based group-rating schemes that are beginning to develop). There are already artificial barriers to free information flow. Grocery stores routinely bar employees of other stores from collecting extensive data on prices. The policy of Internet CD stores of preventing software agents from collecting prices for comparison shopping is just an extension of such barriers to free information flow to ecommerce. We can expect more such barriers. While barriers to commerce of the type discussed above are usually perceived as unfair (an issue that I will deal with more extensively in the last section), they can increase not just the producers' wealth, but economic efficiency and social welfare. As a simple example, consider an independent consultant who can produce a technical report that two different customers might be willing to pay $3,000, and $2,000 for, respectively. If she has to charge a uniform price to the two customers, the most she can get is $4,000, obtained by pricing the report at $2,000. However, if she charges the first customer $3,000, and the other $2,000, she will earn $5,000. If the consultant's time and expenses to prepare the report are worth $4,500, she will not undertake the effort if a uniform price is required. >From an economic viewpoint it is therefore advantageous to allow her to charge different prices to different customers. However, the customer that pays $3,000 is likely to resent it if somebody else obtains the same product for $2,000, and often will not agree to the deal if all conditions are publicly known. This is caused by a conflict between notions of economic efficiency and fairness. There are many examples in the marketplace of behavior that appears even less fair. For example, in 1990, IBM introduced the LaserPrinter E, a lower cost version of its LaserPrinter. The two version were identical, except that the E version printed 5 pages per minute instead of 10 for the regular one. This was achieved (as was found by independent testers, and was not advertised by IBM) through the addition of additional chips to the E version that did nothing but slow down processing. Thus the E model cost more to produce, sold for less, and was less useful. However, as Deneckere and McAfee show in their paper [DeneckereM], which contains many more examples of this type (referred to as "damaged goods"), it can be better for all classes of consumers to allow such behavior, however offensive it might be to the general notions of fairness. Consumers who do not need to print much, and are not willing to pay for the more expensive version, do obtain a laser printer. Consumers who do need high capacity obtain a lower price than they might otherwise have to pay since the manufacturer's fixed costs are spread over more units. Barriers in commerce are an essential part of the current marketplace. Consider the book trade. Although people do not think of it this way, current practices involve charging different prices to different users, and thus maximizing revenues. A novel is typically published in hard cover first, with the aim of extracting high prices from those willing to pay more to read it right away. Once that market is fully exploited, a somewhat cheaper trade paperback edition is made available, to collect revenue from those not willing to pay for the hardbound copy. Finally, a regular paperback edition is published at an even lower price. The used book market develops in parallel, for those willing to read books marked up by previous owners, and so on. How will ecommerce affect book publishing? Eventually we can expect that all books will be available electronically (and will evolve towards new forms, made possible by digital communications). Costs of publishing will come down, and this is going to increase the supply, and lead to many works distributed for free, by aspiring authors hungry for the recognition that might lead to fortune. What about those electronic books that people will be willing to pay for? With publishing costs reduced, we can expect that the authors' share of the revenues will rise, say from the current 15% or so royalty rate to 50% or more, and so in effect the authors might become much more influential than the publishers (or might become the publishers themselves). However, since publishers obviously benefit from the present system of differential pricing, they (and the authors) are likely to have an incentive to institute a similar system in the digital arena. The issue is how to do this. Bits are bits, after all, and are easy to copy. If we make only simple extensions of current copyright laws, we are likely to see a great change in the marketplace for information goods. For example, when I buy a book, I cannot make a copy of it and sell that copy to somebody else. On the other hand, I can sell, rent, or give away the book I purchased to anyone I wish. Suppose we carry over exactly the same rights to the digital world, with some combination of cryptographic techniques and laws guaranteeing that unauthorized copies of digital "books" cannot be made. The ease of transactions on the Net (which is what leads to the dreams of "frictionless capitalism") would then force major changes. With physical volumes, there are substantial barriers to trade in books. Most people do not like reading books that are tattered or marked up by others. They take their time reading books, and (especially for the ones they enjoy) like to retain them in their libraries to be reread any time they wish. As a result of these natural barriers, a single copy is usually read by only a few people. The economics of the present book publishing business depend on this phenomenon. In the digital world, though, with high bandwidth networks and efficient intermediaries, I could buy a copy of a book an hour before bedtime, read a new chapter, and then, just before turning off the lights, send that copy off for resale. Instead of a million copies of a printed book, a thousand electronic copies might suffice. This would force a dramatic change in the structure of the book publishing industry, and explains why there is an intense interest in the creation of artificial barriers to ecommerce, either through revisions to copyright laws or through technological methods. 3. The bumps on the electronic highway Some types of barriers to commerce are accepted as natural when dealing with physical goods. It would be prohibitively expensive for the New York Times, say, to distribute 100 little sheets each day, each one with a separate story, and having readers buy just the ones they were interested in. The accepted wisdom is that ecommerce will lead to the electronic equivalent of just that, with readers selecting and paying for individual stories. It will certainly be possible to do so, as micropayment systems are being developed that will allow for processing of tiny transactions, such as payment for a single story in the New York Times, or a "hit" on some aspiring poet's Web page that contains his sonnets. However, the economic argument is that while such schemes might exist, and may be used in some situations, they will not be dominant. The example of book publishing in the previous section shows why producers of information goods benefit from the natural barriers that exist in the physical world. Their incentives to create artificial barriers in the digital world will be even stronger. It will be harder to distinguish between consumers, since transactions will tend to be impersonal, and arbitrage will be easy. Most important, distribution costs will be negligible, so that only the "first copy" cost of creating a work will matter. Hence traditional, commodity-market type of competition, in which the market price equals the marginal cost, will have to be avoided, since marginal prices will be essentially zero. The incentive that low marginal costs provide to create barriers in commerce can already be seen in many high technology fields. The "damaged goods" studied in [DeneckereM] come primarily from such areas. The pharmaceutical industry is notorious for selling products for hundreds of times more than the cost of producing them, and for selling the same chemicals for human use for ten times the price charged for veterinary purposes. While the incentives to erect artificial barriers will be large in ecommerce, there will also be novel possibilities created by the electronic medium. What kinds of barriers are we likely to encounter in ecommerce? The four most important ones will probably be bundling, differential pricing, subscriptions, and site licensing. Hal Varian [Varian3] discusses the first two in detail, and argues convincingly that they will be prominent in ecommerce. In the rest of this section I will present some additional arguments for these techniques, and will also show why subscription services (which are a form of bundling, but are important for other reasons as well) and site licensing are also likely to be common. There are additional arguments in favor of subscription and site licensing plans. For example, security problems are likely to be easier in those cases. However, this essay will deal only with the economic arguments. The basic assumption in the economic analyses below is that for each information good, an individual consumer will purchase it only if the price is below some threshold (that consumer's valuation of the good). For simplicity, I will only consider items that are independent of each other (such as stories in a newspaper). Much of the economic literature cited below is concerned with goods that are related in one way or another. (For example, if I buy a spreadsheet from Corel, I am unlikely to purchase another one from Microsoft. On the other hand, if I buy a presentation package, I am more likely to buy a CD-ROM of pictures than I would otherwise.) I will not take these factors into consideration, to keep the presentation simple, and bring out only the main factors that are likely to influence the development of ecommerce. I will also assume that producers cannot in general find out what an individual is willing to pay for a product, but can, through test marketing, say, obtain an accurate statistical description of the valuations that the whole population of potential buyers place on that product. 3.1 Bundling Bundling consists of offering several goods together in a single package, such as combining a word processor, a spreadsheet, and a presentation program in a software suite (such as Microsoft Office), or else printing many stories in a single newspaper. Bundling is common, and often seems natural. For example, right shoes and left shoes are invariably sold together, and just about the only time anyone might regret this is when a dog chews up one of a new pair of shoes. I will concentrate on bundling of goods that are almost unrelated, such as a word processor and a spreadsheet program. Why should the pair of them together sell for much less than the sum of their separate prices? It is useful to have seamless integration of the two, to make it easier to move material between them, to have common command structure and icon layouts, and so on. That seems to argue for charging more for the bundle than for the pieces! However, bundling, with a lower price for the bundle than for the components, or even without any possibility for purchasing the components separately, is extremely common. The reason is that it allows the producer to increase revenues by capturing more of the "consumer surplus" that arises when customers pay less than they are willing to do. Since in general prices have to be the same for all customers, bundling can be used to smooth out the uneven preferences people have for different goods and services. For example, suppose we were dealing with a proposal to start a newspaper that would have two sections, a business page and a sports page. Suppose also that there were just two potential readers, Alice and Bob. Suppose also that Alice needs to keep up with the business world, and so is willing to pay $0.50 for the business page, but only $0.20 for the sports page, since she does not particularly care about sports, but might like to keep up with lunchtime conversations. Suppose that Bob's preferences are reversed, in that he is an eager sports fan, willing to pay $0.50 for the sports page, but only $0.20 for the business page, since all he cares about is occasionally checking on his retirement fund. Under those conditions, how should the proposed newspaper be priced? If each section is sold separately, then a price of $0.20 for each will induce both Alice and Bob to buy both sections, for total revenues of $0.80. If the price is set at $0.50 for each section, then Alice will buy only the business page, and Bob only the sports page, for total revenue of $1.00. On the other hand, if the two sections are bundled together, then a price for both of $0.70 will induce both Alice and Bob to purchase the newspaper, and will produce total revenues of $1.40. Thus the economically rational step is not to offer the two sections separately, but only bundled together. Bundling has been studied extensively in the literature, starting with the paper of Burnstein [Burnstein]. Other references are [AdamsY, Bowman, Economides1, KrishnaKA, Schmalensee, Stigler, Varian2, Wilson1, Wilson2]. Unfortunately there is no simple prescription that can be given as to when bundling is better than selling items separately. Depending on the distribution of consumer preferences, bundling can be either more or less profitable for the producer, as was already shown by Adams and Yellen [AdamsY]. However, there are some general guidelines. One is that bundling becomes more profitable as marginal costs decrease (which may be part of the reason for the spread of software suites as the amount of unpaid support provided to users by software houses decreased). Another is that bundling becomes more attractive when consumer preferences are negatively correlated (as in the example above, where Alice and Bob had almost opposite tastes). However, negative correlation in valuations is not necessary for bundling to be profitable, as was first pointed out by Schmalensee [Schmalensee], and as will be shown in the example below. Random variations in preferences are sufficient as a result of the law of large numbers. How much of a difference can bundling make to a producer's bottom line? Unfortunately the published literature is practically silent on this point, for reasons I will discuss later. (There is an intriguing computation in [Stigler], based on reported revenues of movie theaters in different cities.) Let us therefore consider some artificial examples, a bit more realistic than the Alice and Bob one presented above. Consider two books, A and B, say "The Tannu-Tuva Cookbook" and "Sherlock Holmes in Antarctica." Suppose that among one million potential customers, book A is valued at $1 by 100,000, at $2 by another 100,000, and so on, up to $10 by 100,000, and suppose the same distribution of valuations applies to book B. Suppose further that the valuations of the two books are independent. Thus there are about 10,000 customers who value book A at $3 and simultaneously book B at $5, and similarly about 10,000 customers who place values $9 and $2 on A and B, respectively. Under these conditions, if the publisher is to sell these books separately, revenue will be maximized when the price of each is set at $5. About 600,000 people will purchase each book, for total revenue from sales of both books of $6,000,000. (This maximum is not unique, as the same revenue can be achieved by pricing each book at $6, in which case about 500,000 people will buy each.) However, if the two books are sold together, revenue can be made much higher. Since there are 10,000 people who value the bundle at $2 (exactly the 10,000 who value each book at $1), while there are 90,000 who value it at $10, a short calculation shows that the revenue-maximizing price is $9. At the price of $9 per bundle, 720,000 people will purchase it, for total revenue of $6,480,000, exactly 8% higher than if the books were sold separately. Since profits would be the revenues minus the fixed costs of producing the books, they would increase much more dramatically. What weakens the case for bundling is that most people have no interest in most goods. In the example of the books "Sherlock Holmes in Antarctica" and "The Tannu-Tuva Cookbook," a more realistic assessment might be that in a population of 1,000,000, each book would be valued at zero by 90% of the population, with 10,000 valuing it at $1, 10,000 at $2, and so on. If the 100,000 people who do place a positive value on book A are distributed independently of those who value book B at $1 or more, then there would be only 10,000 people who place positive values on both A and B. Bundling under these conditions would not produce much benefit. However, even in cases of extreme indifference, bundling can work if there are enough goods. Consider an information service with 1,000 items (news stories, pictures, or songs). Suppose that in a large population, each individual is totally uninterested in 900 of the items, and values 10 at $0.01 each, 10 at $0.02 each, and so on, with 10 valued at $0.10 each. If the items are to be sold individually, the revenue-maximizing price will be $0.05 for each (or $0.06 each), and each customer will purchase 60 items for a total of $3.00. However, if the collection is sold as a whole (which involves no extra cost to producers of information goods, and also no cost of tossing out mounds of unwanted boxes to consumers), then a price of $5.50 will induce each person to buy, for a gain of 83% in revenues (and much more in profits). So far we have compared only sales of unbundled products (pure unbundling) to those of bundles (pure bundling). However, it is often advantageous to use mixed bundling, where both bundles and separate goods are offered. In the example of the books "Sherlock Holmes in Antarctica" and "The Tannu-Tuva Cookbook," with the distribution of valuations assumed above, a price of $10 for the bundle and $5 for each book separately would produce revenue of $7,400,000, about 14% higher than pure bundling, and over 23% higher than pricing the books separately. (Note that the optimal combination above has the paradoxical property that the price of the bundle is exactly the price of the pieces. Under the assumption of the model, people who value book A at $7 and book B at $3 will purchase the bundle, but if the bundle is not available, will only purchase A.) Adams and Yellen [AdamsY] have shown that mixed bundling is always more advantageous to the producer than pure bundling. Toy models like the one above are amusing to play with, and help illustrate the advantages to producers of bundling. If the distribution of consumer valuations is known, one can determine numerically what the optimal policy is for the producer [Wilson1, Wilson2]. Unfortunately the basic assumption that consumers know what value they place on various goods, and purchase them precisely when the price is below their value, is questionable. In practice people behave in much more complicated ways. An old joke illustrates this: Waiter: And for dessert, we have chocolate mousse, apple pie, and ice cream. Customer: I will have apple pie. Waiter: Oh, I forgot to mention that we also have Peach Melba. Customer: In that case I will have the mousse. While this is a joke, actual behavior is often just as paradoxical. Catalog merchants have learned that the attractiveness of an item is affected strongly not just by its price and description, but also by its placement among other offers. Consumer choices are complicated. Some of the seemingly irrational behavior can be explained on the basis of different consumers having different sensitivities to prices. For example, the phenomenon of regular sales has been modeled successfully this way in [Varian1] and later papers. Other interesting phenomena emerge if one assumes that consumers do respond to price signals in an economically rational way, but with some delay (see [RichardsonR], for example). However, there is no complete theory. Experimental economics has shown that economically optimal solutions can be attained even with small groups of agents, provided they are working in a constrained environment and are trying to optimize their wealth, although even there paradoxes abound (cf. [CookL, HagelR]). In general settings, though, human behavior is hard to model. There are nontransitivities in preferences, choices are determined by behavior of others (so a person is more likely to see a movie that colleagues have seen to have something to talk to them about), and so on. Companies collect extensive data from test marketing, but that data is noisy, and typically involves only small variations in test parameters. There seems to be no unambiguous empirical demonstration that a well defined demand curve exists. Thus economic models discussed above do indicate that bundling is likely to be advantageous to producers, but do not prove this. What happens in the real marketplace, with a variety of customers and competitors, and where there is already much experience with a variety of marketing plans? What we see there is extensive evidence of bundling. In many situations, such as that of physical newspapers, there is an obvious motivation for bundling to reduce costs. However, there is also evidence of bundling's success when there are practically no physical costs involved. Software suites such as Microsoft Office are just one example. Cable TV does not charge for each channel separately, but for packages (bundles) of them. Finally, the big and profitable online information services in the financial and legal arena, such as Reuters, Bloomberg, and Lexis, all operate on a subscription basis or appear to be moving in that direction. (The "pay-per-view" approach made more sense when the computing infrastructure for online access was expensive, and therefore there were high marginal costs of providing access.) All this evidence confirms that bundling is likely to be common in ecommerce. 3.2 Differential pricing Charging different prices to different consumers is already common. Various senior citizen or student discount programs are just some of the most widely spread practices. Scholarly journals typically charge much higher prices to libraries than to individuals, sometimes 10 times higher. For a thorough discussion of such price discrimination and its economic and legal status, see the survey [Varian2]. A producer would like to charge according to the consumer's willingness to pay, but the consumer will usually be reluctant to reveal such information. However, it is sometimes possible to correlate willingness to pay with other features. Airlines offer much cheaper tickets for those willing to be away from home on Saturday night. The theory is that business travelers, who are willing to pay a lot, will not be willing to put up with such inconvenience. In information services, online services such as Prodigy and CompuServe offer stock market quotes that are delayed by 15 or 20 minutes for no extra cost, beyond the basic subscription. Real-time quotes uniformly cost extra, on the theory that those who need them for their trading will pay more. The software industry relies on differential pricing in many products. Student or demo versions typically are the same as the main product, except for artificial limitations on what they can do. They either cannot produce large executables, or cannot handle large files, or cannot use extended precision. We are likely to see many more examples of such differential pricing. Electronic publications may offer high-resolution versions at one price, a lower-resolution version at a lower one, and sometimes they might offer a fax-quality version at no charge. There are already interesting experiments going on in book distribution, with authors making some parts of their manuscripts freely available on the Internet, to advertise their work, to update it with lists of current errata, and to make available features that draw on the unique capabilities of the electronic medium. There are also likely to be differentials based on timeliness, as with stock market quotes; old issues might be offered at low or no charge. There might be extra charges for links to cited works or other desirable features. Differences in quality of offered products might be the only way to preserve some of the features of public libraries. In the digital realm, without some artificial barriers, there would be practically no difference between buying and borrowing. Hence the traditional library policy of unrestricted lending is not compatible with ecommerce, and we are likely to see artificial barriers. Databases might be available to library customers but only inside the library, at special terminals, for example. Librarians would then have to become gatekeepers, restricting access to material more than making it freely available. 3.3 Subscription vs. pay-per-view Offering access to a database or a movie channel on a subscription basis is a form a bundling. The alternative is to charge for each movie, or each download of a Web page. There is much discussion of how such "a la carte" shopping might become prevalent. One attraction of programs consisting of small applets that can be downloaded on demand appears to be the perception that this would allow producers to charge according to how frequently the software is used. However, past experience with pay-per-view systems has been discouraging. Except for a few events, such as championship boxing matches, they have not succeeded in attracting much revenue. All the arguments in favor of bundling apply, and suggest that pay-per-view systems will not be common. Furthermore, there are additional arguments, supported by empirical data on consumer behavior, that argue against pay-per-view schemes. Consumers appear to have a strong predilection for reducing risk, even when this predilection results in lower than optimal expected financial payoff. A certain $10 gain is usually preferred to a wager with a 90% chance of winning $15, and a 10% chance of losing $20. People also tend to use small deductibles when purchasing fire or casualty insurance, even when they could easily bear the loss from a larger deductible. (Since few insurance companies operate with an overhead of less than 30%, a larger deductible would almost surely lead to savings in the long run.) Similarly, consumers appear to have a strong preference for subscription services. To a large extent this is probably explainable by general risk aversion. I may prefer to pay a higher price for a word processor now, even if I do not need it much, to have free use of it when I lose my job, and need to send out lots of job applications, but will not be able to afford extra charges. This preference for subscription services is present even among librarians, who are not spending their own money, and with a large number of users of their resources might be expected to have a stable usage pattern. Even so, they have often expressed their unease about paying "a la carte" for access to databases, since they feared they could not predict what this would do to their budgets. It is difficult to quantify the strength of this preference for subscription services, but it exists and is strong. In the 1970s, the Bell System first experimented with charging for local calls. Typically, customers were given a choice of the traditional flat rate option, which might cost $7.50 per month, and allow unlimited local calling, and of a measured rate option, which might cost $5.00 per month, allow for 50 calls at no extra charge, and then cost $0.05 per call. Anyone making fewer than 100 local calls per month would be better off with the measured rate option. However, in the numerous trials that were carried out, typically around 50% of the customers who were making almost no local calls at all, and thus would benefit from measured rate service, still stayed with the more expensive flat rate service. The preference for flat rate pricing for Internet access is another example of this phenomenon. The main conclusion to be drawn from this discussion is that subscription services do offer substantial value to consumers, even if that value may seem to be irrational. As a corollary, they also offer value to producers. People are willing to pay a lot just to be able to occasionally use certain features. Software producers complain about all the heavy users of their products who do not pay for their high usage. However, these producers benefit from the many users who hardly ever use their system. I seldom use Microsoft Word, but when I do use it (typically because somebody sends me a Word document), I do need it, and so am willing to purchase it for just such occasions. Hence we can expect that even if large systems consisting of downloadable applets do become practical, they will be available on a subscription, and not on a per-use basis. 3.4 Site licensing Site licensing, in which a company or a university pays a flat fee to allow everyone in that institution to use some program or access a database, is very common in the computer and online information industries. In some forms, it has been present for a long time in other areas as well. For example, scholarly publishing can be thought of as an example of site licensing. Typically a university will buy a single copy of an esoteric journal, which is then placed in a library, to be consulted by anyone on campus. In software, site licensing has many attractive features. It simplifies the enforcement problem (which is nontrivial, since many corporations report they spend more on policing software use than on the purchase of that software). It also encourages new users to try out a package, and thus stimulates more usage. In addition, though, site licensing has a strong direct economic argument behind it. We can think of site licensing as a variant of bundling. In ordinary bundling, a producer assembles together several goods into a bundle, to smooth out the differences in valuations that individual consumers place on those goods. In site licensing, a producer assembles together a group of consumers to smooth out the differences in valuations that different people place on a single product. As an example, suppose that in a company of 1,000 employees, 900 are totally uninterested in a software package, but 10 feel it is worth paying $10 for it, 10 feel it is worth $20, and so on, up to 10 who feel it is worth $100. If the software manufacturer had to sell copies of the package to individuals, the best price would be either $50 or $60 for a copy, and the revenue in either case would be $3,000. However, if the management of the company has an accurate impression of how much the employees value the product, it should be willing to pay $5,500 for a site license. This would be a much better deal for the producer, even though it would bring in only $5.50 for each person entitled to use the product. Hence we can expect further spread of site licensing. 4. Fairness, legality, and efficiency Economic arguments show that there is value to many of the artificial barriers in commerce. It is value not just to producers of the goods and services, but to society. Moreover, the incentives to create such barriers apply to individuals as well as large corporations. If Alice plays the piano, and Bob performs magic tricks, they might be able to obtain higher income by bundling their services through offering a combined act to nightclubs. The result might be the difference between starvation and relative comfort. In ecommerce, a group of budding poets might collect larger revenues if they sell access to their combined works, instead of working individually. While economics will lead to the creation of barriers in ecommerce, this will frequently clash with popular notions of what is fair. There is already much grumbling about airline pricing and senior citizen discounts. Moreover, many of the grumbles result in laws restricting commerce. Several cities in the United States have passed laws decreeing that women's shirts should not cost more to launder than men's. There is a general perception of what is fair, often codified into laws. Some of it goes back to the ancient notion of a "just price," which is supposed to reflect a modest markup over the producer's costs. However, in ecommerce, even more than in the modern physical economy, cost is a poorly defined concept. In ecommerce, the concepts of "increasing returns" [Arthur], in which producer profits increase as usage increases, and customer lock-in, in which someone trained in using a particular spreadsheet faces a major barrier of retraining in switching to another one, are the ruling ones. This means that the standard tests of illegal monopolistic behavior do not apply. It can make excellent sense to give away a software package, since the major benefit to the producer will come from sales of upgrades. Other examples of economically sensible behavior that is not accepted by society exist. U. S. courts stopped IBM from requiring users of its tabulating machines to purchase their punched cards from IBM [US1936]. Today, most economists would argue that this decision was a mistake, since in effect what IBM was attempting to do was to charge the heavy users more than the light ones, to enlarge the market. (See [Stigler] for economic arguments against another decision, [US1962], which barred movie distributors from requiring movie theaters to book whole series of movies instead of selecting them individually.) While the general issue of what practices are legal is not entirely clear (cf. [Bowman, Varian2]), there may be legal problems with some of the barriers that are likely to be erected. Even when there is no legal difficulty, there can be extensive public action, as in recent protests against pharmaceutical firms' pricing, and against use of child labor in less developed countries. (With reputations, whether of celebrity endorsers or producers themselves, becoming increasingly important, public protests can be powerful weapons.) Issues of fairness (see [Zajac] for extensive discussions of their influence on public policy) are likely to be much more pronounced than in the past. One reason is that the barriers on the electronic superhighway are likely to be frequent. Another is that those barriers will be much more visible as artificial. (In print book publishing, most people seem to think that hardcover books sell for more than paperbacks because they cost more to produce. However, the differences in costs are minor, and the price difference is just a form of price discrimination. On the Web, it will be clear that a low resolution version of a work is just a degraded version of the high resolution one.) It will also be much easier to organize protest movements than in the past. Public perceptions of what is fair depend on culture, are often inconsistent, and do often clash with economic incentives. Furthermore, the rapid evolution of technology, markets, and laws, will lead to a continuation of the unstable situation we have. Therefore there will likely be increasing temptation to ask governments to intervene, and that will produce serious difficulties for ecommerce. Barlow's "independence declaration" [Barlow] might appeal to many, but is totally unrealistic. Government has been involved in setting up the Internet, and is getting more involved all the time, through issues such as the fair use of Scientology documents on the Net, assignments of names, and provision of wide access to the Net. The U. S. Telecommunications Act of 1996, which nominally deregulated telecommunications, also brought in extremely intrusive government regulations, to deal with thorny issues of setting up a "level playing field." We should be prepared for more intervention of this type, whether they are successful or not. Many issues will be complex. As an example, only a tiny fraction of the public understood any of the arguments about the U. S. telecommunications deregulation debate, with its technical points about access to local wires. Also, few people follow the details of the debate about revisions to copyright laws. As was argued in an earlier section, ecommerce requires some revision. However, there are a variety of ways to do this, and the precise ways in which different proposals affect different players is not clear to the public. (See the discussions by Samuelson [Samuelson1, Samuelson2] of the proposed revisions to U. S. copyright law [USPTO1995], as well as the survey paper [Okerson] and the book [PattersonL].) Therefore we can expect an increased demand for lobbyists, lawyers, and public relations experts. Even in the non-governmental arena, it is reported, for example, that "in preparing a commemorative CD-ROM for the 500th anniversary of the first Columbus voyage to America, IBM spent over $1M clearing rights, of which only about $10K went to the rights holders; everything else went into administrative and legal fees" [Lesk]. Although systems are being developed for automatic tracking of rights to copyrighted material and the automatic payment of fees, it is unlikely that such systems will see wide usage. Content owners will probably be reluctant to rely on them, and possibly let valuable rights slip away. The conclusion to be drawn from this essay is that electronic commerce will increase the efficiency of the economy. However, it will also create artificial barriers, and we will have to learn to live with them. Acknowledgements: I thank Greg Blonger, Hsueh-Ling Huynh, Bill Infosino, Steve Lanning, Peter Linhart, Gerry Ramage, Ryan Siders, Hal Varian, and Ed Zajac for their comments and the information they provided. References: [AdamsY] W. J. Adams and J. L. Yellen, Commodity bundling and the burden of monopoly, Quart. J. Economics, 90 (1976), 475-498. [Arthur] W. B. Arthur, "Increasing Returns and Path Dependence in the Economy," U. Michigan Press, 1994. [Barlow] J. P. Barlow, A cyberspace independence declaration, Feb. 9, 1996 email broadcast message, available at URL http://syninfo.com/IAN/02136002.htm and many other Net sites. [Bowman] W. S. Bowman, Jr., Tying arrangements and the leverage problem, Yale Law J., 67 (Nov. 1967), 19-36. [Burnstein] M. L. Burnstein, The economics of tie-in sales, Rev. Economics and Statistics, 42 (1960), 68-73. [CookL] K. S. Cook and M. Levi, eds., "The Limits of Rationality," Univ. Chicago Press, 1990. [DeneckereM] R. J. Deneckere and R. P. McAfee, Damaged goods, J. Economics and Management Strategy, to appear. [Dyson] E. Dyson, Intellectual value, first published in Dec. 1994 in Release 1.0, republished (in an abbreviated form) in Wired, July 1995, and available at URL http://www.hotwired.com/wired/3.07/features/dyson.html [Economides1] N. Economides, Mixed bundling in duopoly, working paper (1993), available at URL http://edgar.stern.nyu.edu/networks/cvnoref.html [Economides2] N. Economides, The economics of networks, Intern. J. Industrial Organization, to appear. Available at URL http://edgar.stern.nyu.edu/networks/cvnoref.html [FrankC] R. H. Frank and P. J. Cook, "The Winner-Take-All Society," Free Press, 1995. [Gates] B. Gates (with N. Myhrvold and P. Rinearson), "The Road Ahead," Viking, 1995. [HagelR] J. H. Hagel and A. E. Roth, eds., " The Handbook of Experimental Economics," Princeton Univ. Press, 1995. [KrishnaKA] A. Krishna, P. K. Kopalle, and J. L. Assuncao, Bundling of complementary goods: The impact of competition, brand preference, and price sensitivity, in preparation. [Lesk] M. Lesk, The seven ages of information retrieval, to be published. [Odlyzko] A. M. Odlyzko, On the road to electronic publishing, Euromath Bulletin, vol. 2, no. 1 (June 1996), to appear, and to be available at URL http://www.math.ethz.ch/~shared/emb Available electronically at URL http://netlib.att.com/netlib/att/math/odlyzko/index.html and via email by sending the message send epublishing.road.txt from att/math/odlyzko to netlib at research.att.com. [Okerson] A. S. Okerson, Who owns digital works?, Scientific American, 275 (July 1996), 64-68. Text available electronically at URL http://www.sciam.com/WEB/0796issue/0796okerson.html [PattersonL] L. R. Patterson and S. W. Lindberg, "The Nature of Copyright: A Law of Users' Rights," Univ. Georgia Press, 1991. [RichardsonR] T. J. Richardson and R. Radner, Monopolists and viscous demand, to be published. [Samuelson1] P. Samuelson, Intellectual property rights and the global information economy, Comm. ACM 39 (1996), 23-28. [Samuelson2] P. Samuelson, Technological protection for copyrighted works, Emory Law J., to appear. [Schmalensee] R. Schmalensee, Pricing of product bundles, J. Business, 57 (1982), S211-S230. Comments on pp. S231-S246. [Stigler] G. Stigler, United States v. Loew's Inc.: A note on block booking, Supreme Court Review, 152 (1963), 152-157. [US1936] International Business Machines Corp. v. United States, 298 U.S. 131 (1936). [US1962] Loew's Inc. v. United States, 371 U.S. 38, 52 (1962). [USPTO1995] Intellectual Property and the National Information Infrastructure, The Report of the Working Group on Intellectual Property Rights, B. A. Lehman, Chair, U. S. Patent and Trademark Office, Sept. 1995. Available at URL http://www.uspto.gov/web/ipnii/ [Varian1] H. R. Varian, A model of sales, Am. Economic Review, 70 (1980), 651-659. Erratum on p. 517 of vol. 71 (1981). [Varian2] H. R. Varian, Price discrimination, pp. 597-654 in "Handbook of Industrial Organization," vol. I, R. Schmalensee and R. D. Willing, eds., Elsevier, 1989. [Varian3] H. R. Varian, Pricing information goods, available at URL http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~hal/people/hal/papers.html. [Varian4] H. R. Varian, Buying, renting and sharing information goods, available at URL http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~hal/people/hal/papers.html. [Wilson1] R. Wilson, "Nonlinear Pricing," Oxford Univ. Press, 1993. [Wilson2] R. Wilson, Nonlinear pricing and mechanism design, pp. 249-289 in "Handbook of Computational Economics," vol. I, H. M. Amman, D. A. Kendrick, and J. Rust, eds., Elsevier, 1996. [Zajac] E. E. Zajac, "Political Economy of Fairness," MIT Press, 1995. From habs at warwick.com Mon Aug 12 09:38:44 1996 From: habs at warwick.com (Harry S. Hawk) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 00:38:44 +0800 Subject: Unmetered Net Usage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608121309.JAA25649@cmyk.warwick.com> > Will "unmetered" usage go away? It depends on a lot of factors. Right now, > unmetered usage is a big enough marketing draw that it appears to > outcompete metered usage plans. Sure, there are people like me who pay a > flat rate (in my case, $20/month) and yet who are on for several hours a My view point on this is that there will always be unmetered use but it will ALWAYS have a lower priority. That if you want to ensure that the download your doing or the internet phone call you placing gets through you'll have to pay it bit... You pay for faster routing You will pay for priority access You will pay for transaction control and measure and monitoring.. etc.. If you don't care about those things.. and will surf on the left over bits' i'm sure it will always be unmetered. /hawk From wb8foz at nrk.com Mon Aug 12 10:22:23 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:22:23 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] Re: US Power Outages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608121325.JAA01788@nrk.com> It looks to me as if, what with all the earthquakes out there, that some of those high voltage poles have tipped into the right hand plane.... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From jya at pipeline.com Mon Aug 12 10:22:42 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:22:42 +0800 Subject: Unmetered Net Usage Message-ID: <199608121357.NAA17415@pipe5.t2.usa.pipeline.com> Science, August 2, reports on Net traffic jams and various schemes to ease the flow, including pricing correlated to speedier service. See: http://www.sciencemag.org/science/scripts/display/full/273/5275/585b.html The report is part of a special section on computer use in science, with three others on the Internet. For the full section see: http://www.sciencemag.org/science/scripts/display/full/273/5275/585.htm From vince at offshore.com.ai Mon Aug 12 10:27:28 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:27:28 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960812101556.00a54ec4@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote: > At 01:37 PM 8/11/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: > > >If the laws of a country say it is fraud to open a bank account with > >a fake passport, then encouraging someone to do so is encouraging > >fraud. Check with your lawyer and see if you can open up a bank > >account with a fake passport. > > My lawyer says that at common law you can use any name to open an account as > long as there is no intent to defraud. Since I am giving the bank money and > not vice-versa, it can't be common law fraud. I'm lending to them. Interesting. First, common law only applies if there is no specific law against it. In some countries there are specific laws. Is your lawyer sure there is no specific law against this in the USA? > They > aren't lending to me. It *is* illegal in the US for the bank to open an > account for me without some ID checks, but it is not *my* problem and it is > not fraud. Second, maybe they are lending to you. Or maybe you are laundering money. This also depends on the bank forms. If they ask you to list any other aliases you use, or your social security number, etc, you probably need to lie to fill out the form. Think your lawyer would be willing to give his name and a statement on this? If a cypherpunk ever got in trouble and could say, "I was told by the lawyer XYZZY this was legal", it might help. :-) -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From trei at process.com Mon Aug 12 10:32:30 1996 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:32:30 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Police prepare stunning e Message-ID: <199608121156.EAA02006@toad.com> pjn at nworks.com writes: Someone writes: >> The car stopper works by focusing an intense electromagnetic >> charge on the electronic systems that manage most modern >> engines, disabling them and paralysing the car. In the jargon >> of its inventors, the 150 kilovolt charge is a nemp, or non-nuclear >> electromagnetic pulse. Contractors are bidding to produce a >> police version. > Is there any dif between this and a HERF gun? Only that this is pretty real, while "HERF guns" have only appeared in science fiction novels, and in newspaper articles which seem to be from the 'Weekly World News' school of journalism. Go over the the amateur radio newsgroups, and you'll find that the interference of mobile ham radios with car ignitions is a well known issue. On a more speculative note, many years ago Harlan Ellison wrote an anti-statist short story entitled '"Repent Harlequin!" cried the Tick-Tock Man.' , in which the government required all adults to be surgically fitted with 'cardioplates', which allowed the state to turn off the hearts of uncooperative citizen-units by radio. Peter Trei trei at process.com From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Aug 12 11:27:27 1996 From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 02:27:27 +0800 Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199608121350.GAA14978@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu> I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"c2"} = " eric pgp hash reord"; $remailer{"penet"} = " penet post"; $remailer{"flame"} = " cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut post reord"; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"ecafe"} = " cpunk mix"; $remailer{"amnesia"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ksub"; $remailer{'alpha'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{'nymrod'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"lead"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"nemesis"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"vegas"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"ncognito"} = " mix cpunk pgp hash latent"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (c2 alpha) (flame replay) (alumni portal) Use "premail -getkeys pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu" to get PGP keys for the remailers. Fingering this address works too. Note: The remailer list now includes information for the alpha nymserver. Last update: Mon 12 Aug 96 6:48:36 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- mix mixmaster at remail.obscura.com -++--++-+--+ 2:22:53 99.96% haystack haystack at holy.cow.net *+*#*+*--### 21:59 99.95% balls remailer at huge.cajones.com *++# 6:01 99.95% lead mix at zifi.genetics.utah.edu ++++++++--++ 1:59:31 99.94% replay remailer at replay.com *** **+***+* 5:07 99.91% nymrod nymrod at nym.jpunix.com #+** *####-# 23:23 99.90% penet anon at anon.penet.fi ------_.-- 14:43:28 99.55% jam remailer at cypherpunks.ca **** _.-**** 6:31:35 98.67% nemesis remailer at meaning.com **+ * **** 28:31 98.61% winsock winsock at c2.org ----..--_ - 18:19:17 97.80% amnesia amnesia at chardos.connix.com --- ------ 3:20:56 96.89% extropia remail at miron.vip.best.com __ ------ 10:03:23 91.52% ncognito ncognito at rigel.cyberpass.net -....----+ 7:57:35 89.83% alpha alias at alpha.c2.org +-+*+-_. 5:24:22 58.18% c2 remail at c2.org --+---.. 5:59:32 57.68% lucifer lucifer at dhp.com +--+++++ 53:57 56.99% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From reusch at pluto.njcc.com Mon Aug 12 11:37:59 1996 From: reusch at pluto.njcc.com (Michael Reusch) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 02:37:59 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608121502.LAA04167@pluto.njcc.com> is now doing internet telephony (www.von.com). Who isn�t? They have developed a set of voice morphing tools (www.voxware.com/meta.htm) and I quote: �Morph-It offers an alternative. Morph-It allows multimedia developers and users to actually change, in real time, the character of encoded speech by altering resonance, pitch, timbre and other voice personality elements. With Morph-It, pitch and resonance can be altered independently. All these changes can be made and saved using a simple editor, and transformed voices can be stored as easy-to-apply VoiceFonts. Morph-It can be used for a variety of purposes: Multiple voice personalities can be created from a single voice recording. Users in "real-time" applications can disguise or alter their voices to enhance game- and role-playing. Vocal character can be easily transformed into virtually any form, whether from male to female, or from a child's to an adult's.� End quote. I have not heard it work. Imagine drunken suits, in karioki bars, sounding like drunken Pavarottis, disk jockeys whose true voices are nasel whines, talking-heads and telemarketers using highly tuned voice-clones, home-alone children answering the phone as John Wayne. From trei at process.com Mon Aug 12 11:44:47 1996 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 02:44:47 +0800 Subject: India, Productivity, and Tropical Climes Message-ID: <199608121315.GAA03303@toad.com> Tim writes: >Arun Mehta writes: > [huge snip] > >My prediction is that with the blessings of the Internet, the > >next generation of multiracial programmers, even those that were > >born in the USA, will be more likely to be found on the beaches > >of tropical islands than in the fog of San Francisco. When you > >can work in the shade of a palm tree, even if you should earn > >less, it's worth it :-) > As attractive as this sounds, historically this has not happened. And as > many will tell you, the climate of the Bay Area in particular and > California in general is extremely benign and delightful. The average > winter temperature is only about 10C cooler than summer temperatures. > Evenings are not balmy, but neither are they oppressively hot. 'Oppressive' is a subjective term, and is largely defined by what one is used to. Personally, I find the Bay area's climate very boring, too dry, and usually too hot (and yes, I've been there many times, at all parts of the year - I'm speaking from experience). Due to the lack of rain, the whole country side also seems much dirtier than a place where everything, both natural and artificial, gets a regular washing. > Interestingly, and not really related to CP themes, the fact is that is > that most technological developments have come out of cooler climes. Not a > lot of stuff from tropical and island climes. Maybe they realize life is > too good eating roast pig at the beach luau, maybe they are too lethargic > from the heat, maybe tropical diseases and mosquitos have taken their toll, > maybe.... The last time I heard this argument was in a documentary film about South African mining and agriculture, produced by South Africans, during the height of apartheid 'these great natuaral resources lay untapped until the arrival of a more industrious people, tempered by a colder climate...' While there *is* some truth that people living in environments where survival does not depend on long-term planning have less pressure to develop sophisticated industry, to claim that average temperature is the main determinate is betrays an ignorance of history. The technological pre-emminence of Northern Europe and derivative cultures is a very recent phenomenom. Civilization was invented in hot climates, and for most of history the more sophisticated cultures were in locations where you could sweat any time of the year - the Mediterranean basin, Mesopotamia, India, coastal China, Central America - in fact, in the classical period you could have mapped out a 'civilized belt' surrounding the globe in a distinctly sub-tropical climate. > I know an awful lot of folks who could easily affort to move to almost > anywhere in the world, and yet they stay in California. (I also know folks > moving to even cooler climes, in the U.S., especially less-crowded areas.) In any place you can name, most of the people who can afford to move to other areas do not do so. By your argument, Kuwait should be totally depopulated by now. > --Tim May Peter Trei trei at process.com Peter Trei Senior Software Engineer Purveyor Development Team Process Software Corporation http://www.process.com trei at process.com From root at deimos.ceddec.com Mon Aug 12 11:54:03 1996 From: root at deimos.ceddec.com (Tom Zerucha) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 02:54:03 +0800 Subject: s/key for linux? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960801042307.00679844@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: I managed to get it working enough to fit into tis fwtk. You need to add some bsd stuff, and/or move some includes. zerucha at shell.portal.com finger zerucha at jobe.portal.com for PGP key From an584514 at anon.penet.fi Mon Aug 12 12:04:25 1996 From: an584514 at anon.penet.fi (an584514 at anon.penet.fi) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 03:04:25 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. Message-ID: <9608121346.AB00628@anon.penet.fi> Vince says: > And Anguilla is first and foremost a taxhaven. But it tries hard to be a > very clean taxhaven (does not want drug money etc). I think that "clean" > corporations operating here tax free is a potentially huge market. This is an illusion. There ain't no such thing as a clean corporation operating in a clean tax haven. Every overseas corp that is doing something they can't do without interference back onshore, is running the gauntlet. Remember, its my moral choice as to whether its dirty, and if I am sitting in some Washington quango office, and I decide its dirty, then it is. Plus its my job to fight it, and I'm not afraid of a dirty fight. And I got a list of contacts who've got friends who've got favours to call in... But you must know this, don't you follow the machinations that USG pulls in the region to try and close down the arbitrages? > Anguilla and OIS are not the data haven of cypherpunks wet dreams. Neither > Anguilla nor I want "hit men for hire" advertising here. Sorry Tim. And I > think the loss in clean business would outweigh any money from such by a > long shot. Nobody's talking about things that every body agrees are no-go. Shooting people is generally considered not acceptable. So please don't change the subject. What we are talking about is a fairly harmless concept. An obviously "fake" passport that is designed to fool the supposedly ignorant peasant terrorist when they wave grenades on the some flight from Miami, now going to Havana. It's a laughable concept, and one that most western governments have sniffed at and not lifted one finger to even warn about. OK, so there is a chance that a dumb clerk in a bank could be fooled. Still, opening a bank account with such a person could be done any number of ways. It's equally possible to imagine the Honduras passport being used to escape some sudaka warzone, without being shot for a gringo. Remember PGP? It was used for liberty, crime and freedom, all at once. > One simple example is that OIS was given a project Gutenberg CD-ROM and > may sell online copies of old books. Some countries are extending > copyrights back further into the past. Anguilla is not. So we could sell > books that have expired copyrights in Anguilla but not expired in USA etc. > Think regulatory arbitrage. Crap. It's obvious what book your talking about, if you get Europeans down there. It's about as harmless, or harmful, as "kill the Queen" rants, again its my moral choice. If a phone call from your lawyer causes such good responses, then there is no problem about getting this one made out-of-stock. Do you have a lot of tourists then from *that* place? What's the GDP take for the holiday trade anyway? > Taxhavens are a huge and well understood market. Datahavens are still > new. Not counting gambling, they may only be $0/year rounded to the > nearest million. The distinction is irrelevant. What are you going to do to protect my business? Now I know. SFA. I may be asking you for data protection, but my profits, which (might) pay you, come from a long line of other businesses. We're not all geeks. Tim makes good points, especially as he is not (as far as I can see) in the trade. When my company does business with such a jurisdiction, we look for the list of things allowed and the list of no-nos (which we respect). Then we look at the history of how that country stand up to its word. One thing is what they say, then another is what they do. It's surprising how easy it is to see just how much a place really wants your business for the long run. I will say this, it ain't really your fault that this happened. The webshop was too bright, too blatent. He talked to toublesome scam reporters. That sort of thing is going to bring in trouble. Softly softly catchee monkey is what is needed. Then when the phone rang my guess is it all happened to quickly. You win some you lose some. Lets not make a bad story get worse. Even though this is not a happy post (Anguilla was on our list) we still would like you to suceed. Our advice, worth what you paid, is don't advertise this event, one bad storm doesnt sink a ship. Take a look at all your webpages and tone down the noisy ones. Tell them to camoflage their location, no pun intended. Then, get down to your lawyers office and sit down over a beer and work out how your going to handle this thing next time. Properly. Publish (quietly but definatively) your list of no-nos (ok, that's already said). Think about what new shops want to do and talk it over with your man down at the bar (so you can predict the attacks). Learn some negotiating skills, soften the blow from both ends. Nothing I'm sure you hadn't thought of. Cheers, sorry for anonymity, but as I say, its softly softly in this game. Wish you luck. --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From dsiemon at cyg.net Mon Aug 12 12:26:58 1996 From: dsiemon at cyg.net (Dan Siemon) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 03:26:58 +0800 Subject: Fun with M$ Message-ID: <199608121526.LAA07380@granite.cyg.net> ---------- > From: Rich Graves > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Fun with M$ > Date: Friday, August 09, 1996 8:46 PM > > On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Jeremey Barrett wrote: > > > Information page with a link to a page which loads the control: > > > > http://www.halcyon.com/mclain/ActiveX/ > > > > Quote from the page: > > > > Exploder is an Active X control which demonstrates security problems with > > Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Exploder performs a clean shutdown of > > Win95 and will turn off the power on machines that have a power > > conservation BIOS (green machines). I don't see how anyone can call this a bug. Microsoft has chosen what Sun should have: leave the security to the user, don't take it away from everyone. Java has been sverly crippled by the removal of features that would have made applets truly usefull, like local disk access. By leaving these abilities and allowing the user to choose whether or not to run the object, leaves the trusted objects to be truly usefull. Microsoft has even designed a system of trust verification for these objects throught the trust chain and the MS download service. For details on the MS download service look at the july 96 issue of Microsoft Systems Journal. Security should be a user/parent decision not a general ban to protect a few. From vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net Mon Aug 12 12:32:24 1996 From: vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net (Erle Greer) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 03:32:24 +0800 Subject: Read; NOW Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812154732.00704a10@mail.sd.cybernex.net> At 10:29 PM 8/11/96 -0400, Unix_Code wrote: > Hi I'm Unix Code and have a few things to ask... Ok, go ahead... we're waiting... I thought you had a few things to ask? > (it may not go with >Cryptography but go ahead and read) Maybe I read it too fast. Not only did it have nothing to do with crypto, but I could not ascertain as to it's relevance to anything whatsoever. - I'm sorry, C-Punks; I couldn't resist, but I did keep it short. Vagab0nd
Visit web page for public key. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Aug 12 12:41:54 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 03:41:54 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Police prepare stunning e CUT_ags Message-ID: <199608121531.PAA22889@pipe5.t2.usa.pipeline.com> Peter Trei Wrote: On a more speculative note, many years ago Harlan Ellison wrote an anti-statist short story entitled '"Repent Harlequin!" cried the Tick-Tock Man.' , in which the government required all adults to be surgically fitted with 'cardioplates', which allowed the state to turn off the hearts of uncooperative citizen-units by radio. -------- NYP reports today on the thriving market for Radio Frequency Identification (R.F.-ID) tags. And FiTi reports today on tagging cattle, tracking meat from cradle to abbatoir, to ward off mad cow assassination politics. Are these precursors of CU body-tags acoming from ARPA labs? E-Systems and a bunch of comp-conspirators just got supercalifrigalistic HPCC contracts. ----- For the NYT and FiTi reports, see: http://jya.com/cutags.txt CUT_ags From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Mon Aug 12 12:52:19 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 03:52:19 +0800 Subject: FCC_ups Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812155336.012936dc@vertexgroup.com> At 08:58 PM 8/11/96 -0700, you wrote: >At 14:08 8/11/96, John Young wrote: >> 8-10-96. WaPo: >> >> "Phone Service Via the Internet May Slash Rates." >> >> Labs of Advanced Technology has developed a way for >> people to make long-distance calls over the Internet >> using only their telephones, at about half the price of >> ordinary toll calls. Customers would merely call a >> central number, then dial their long-distance numbers. >> The call is carried on the Internet, then put back onto >> the local phone system at its destination. The company >> plans to charge 5 to 8 cents per minute for all domestic >> U.S. calls, which represents a 50 to 75 percent discount >> off most domestic long-distance rates. > >I am glad to see some movement in this area. I designed a similar system >for a previous employer of mine. But the real choke point is the local >loop. As of this day, the local telos still have a de facto monopoly in the >local markets. The new competitors (the same old Phone Company) that we >will see in the near future seem to show no desire to deliver the really The real issue concerns the $0.03 per minute access fee that LD companies pay the local loop for voice communications. Seems there is difference between data bits and voice bits. VON has sparked this debate and the ISP's may end up paying the RBOCs the access fee. The way around that as well is through point to point wiring (and of course wireless systems). PairGain Technology is manufacturing a product that provides 384Kbps data and voice over a single pair of copper. Many RBOCs will sell you a LAD circuit which is point-to-point, unloaded, and unswitched. They go by different names : telegraph circuits, alarm circuits, Local Area Data Circuit. Ask a security company what kind of circuit they install. Your mileage may vary. --j From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 12 13:43:12 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 04:43:12 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: <199608121610.JAA05896@mail.pacifier.com> At 07:28 AM 8/12/96 -0500, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >Jim McCoy wrote: >> Even the power company's secret experiments in the cores of nuclear reactors >> have not found a way to get around the 186,000 km/s speed limit on everything. >> > >I wonder where does the 186,000 km/s speed limit come from? ;) > A serious confusion as to proper units. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From jkroeger at squirrel.owl.de Mon Aug 12 13:47:21 1996 From: jkroeger at squirrel.owl.de (Johannes Kroeger) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 04:47:21 +0800 Subject: New mixmaster/ghio remailer mix@squirrel.owl.de Message-ID: <19960812160526.19277.qmail@squirrel.owl.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've installed a Mixmaster/Ghio remailer combination on my Linux machine with the address mix at squirrel.owl.de. Here are the public keys: Type Bits/KeyID Date User ID pub 1024/0B11B275 1996/08/08 Squirrel Remailer -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAjIJ8IkAAAEEAJvmQTdUL2iLpKmZcnrtQuQWdw1zqt7oYVqkWeFa8J0qrunP smKvfTXmo52y2leLxbKZ6efADvrKq9ThXGF6qREVIdzTOnRYsVIwSSJjqBiDykAU cz8y/rEDes0oty4TRhysve976RwF3dLK7WU0RrDFj3VBLMhzyiQ+wVoLEbJ1AAUR tCdTcXVpcnJlbCBSZW1haWxlciA8bWl4QHNxdWlycmVsLm93bC5kZT6JARUCBRAy DQ4gvA9InihC/mkBAUlnCACgdpUBabYF9mQPaBC69YGxvcmoYQUxtqj7HlSpAAMr l0HlPNVUHuSqgo3Wo54uIHc4fFA2JYyxi/qETrQU5sHGOHq63H66uPylyzTLfE5v uIzbMuikNL2f9SIpdPamW2b+4Jep8UNlSGN0hKtbyedBDClJfPYbCXn9FKgwFcoo UyPTcfiAsV1f97cTGFM88thUVv6pAYNO4quangxnBEtdwY/mrr1xefw36TiC1yPo PNItxHEFRFxD2aEG5vA5hjRp/Sz5ZXZiY8K9X7hlt+n3MUXfKKz/OldWtF+Q9fOg a8Kmqj+duqlS2A4NbWp9emujOEzn2giI7+13B8MEyzVliQCVAgUQMgnwiSQ+wVoL EbJ1AQFKYwP/XqOGRvvjyd3anh42iAG0SASP9e/fIjD8bCymdEhJHdAsNy0H06ns oaLtH20tHN4BAgUo9i9H8h11+AygF4iJokGz1coP2BJI/O2o7YxR8SBWwk1SSrCb utbsi00uz/7QN1zb7Gn/sowUahhBsmhbJbkuur6EB5shBqyq0m/5jVE= =MqM9 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de 072821bee96df27f9defd3b41d216ac2 2.0.3 -----Begin Mix Key----- 072821bee96df27f9defd3b41d216ac2 258 AASyQ7WwBpuGeDdEHnfEZO3WXHbGWbtyz0EKeImP moWsMhfky9H/GoFt3qH10HsH2Hf5TbZBQFim7P2F cgvKNiitUwihSyZcTQEDPbhEIWMQCZdBZLDO8zId eAg3TUhwhHfjdILNyhMTOMyqZQckY+mrUTboT/z3 nloJJdC4PSHPiwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAB -----End Mix Key----- The Ghio remailer has the following features: $remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek" My connection for email is via a UUCP link that is polled every two hours. Do not expect quick turnaround of remailed messages. List pingers please note. This can be a disadvantage or an advantage depending on your needs and expectations. Please read the help file before using the remailer. You can get it by sending an empty mail with subject "remailer-help" to mix at squirrel.owl.de. I adapted and extended the original remailer help files and inserted a section about reply blocks and pseudonyms. C'punks, please mail questions and comments directly to me, as I'm not subscribed to the cypherpunks list. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: latin1 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQEVAgUBMg9WB7wPSJ4oQv5pAQFoTgf+NABhSyEDQyzLoAC/FVDSvhSJtdbaXMFz vQOxVpUk9DllNpDIkW8Wj/rdH7QDk2vma8bNAaBD3/7HOs8ygFLWlLC3ZB48TpTK ghd/JT8VTvnHHQ3uM3XyXEwLkykTyJJhDuDBbnVzczCwEGQaaz/cpdQInVzQIOc7 GTNyRGGJX4ILzHNH5hfxZTDMfgCjF1qpvSqgT1qibhbViCH05zT4yykKcl83KE4v M8bFGrw86CUrLoUww5xTmiRIvHbUFCtwwrvjAktAX1U6jUyrJjn8qsyPj8lvA9eB qaRD1PwjJg57QYAkrHl0H11owpUZDPW7y76mBKYzQofPBCIuAkuW6g== =zgfG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Johannes Kroeger Send me mail with subject "send pgp-key" to get my PGP key From geeman at best.com Mon Aug 12 13:54:08 1996 From: geeman at best.com (I=(!isnum(self))) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 04:54:08 +0800 Subject: don't say "bomb" on the internet Message-ID: <320F625E.1744@best.com> Below is from EFF source. Does anyone have specifics on where this piece of idiocy is supposedly going from here? When does Congress reconvene on this issue? Any specific activities going on regarding this piece of crap? [begin quote]======================================================================== This is the language that Feinstein inserted into the Defense Authorization Act. It has been passed by the Senate. This is not good, but significantly different from her first effort last Spring (a similar amendment, to the S.735 anti-terrorism bill of 1995). This language is technology-neutral. However, it does have a very slippery 'intent' or 'knowledge' standard, and though the language of the bill does not directly focus on the Internet, all of Feinstein's commentary on the Senate floor and to the press have focused exclusively on "bomb-making information" on the Internet. Though this new version of her Net censorship proposal is possibly constitutional, unlike the earlier one, a key question that all constituents and journalists need to ask of Sen. Feinstein is: If you are simply trying to criminalize online incitement of, or conspiracy to commit, murder by bomb, then what on earth does this bill do? Both of these things are *already illegal* online or offline. S.1762 Department of Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997 (Passed by the Senate) SEC. 1088. PROHIBITION ON THE DISTRIBUTION OF INFORMATION RELATING TO EXPLOSIVE MATERIALS FOR A CRIMINAL PURPOSE. (a) UNLAWFUL CONDUCT- Section 842 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection: `(l) It shall be unlawful for any person to teach or demonstrate the making of explosive materials, or to distribute by any means information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture of explosive materials, if the person intends or knows, that such explosive materials or information will be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal criminal offense or a criminal purpose affecting interstate commerce.'. (b) PENALTY- Section 844(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended-- (1) by striking `(a) Any person' and inserting `(a)(1) Any person'; and (2) by adding at the end the following: `(2) Any person who violates subsection (l) of section 842 of this chapter shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.'. From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Mon Aug 12 14:01:03 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 05:01:03 +0800 Subject: (Off Topic) Re: FCC_ups In-Reply-To: <199608120538.WAA29683@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > At 02:34 AM 8/12/96 -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote: > > Anyone that wants to carry a large volume of traffic via the 'net will > > find that either the market will dictate that they pay for the bandwidth > > they use, or the FCC will. I don't see the FCC getting involved, unless > > the "phone service via internet" providor tries to use the courts to get > > out of paying for the bandwidth they use. > > Bandwidth costs almost nothing, unless you are doing full motion > video. > I disagree - the cost doesn't stop w/ the cost of the circuit itself - installation, CPE, maintainance, management, customer service (re the purchaser of the bandwidth, not the "voice customer") all contribute to the cost. None of these costs are realy "fixed" - all are fixed+marginal, so the costs increase as bandwidth is added. Also, I've worked with a number of large sites, as well as a large ISP - the amount of RealAudio traffic is amazing. > What is expensive is cutting that bandwidth up into little pieces > and delivering those pieces to the people who want to use it at > the time that they want to use it. Yes, but having enough bandwidth to service your customer base means having enough bandwidth to service peak periods of demand - otherwise, customer satisfaction will be low. What is your point? If x bandwidth is sufficient during "off-hours", but 6x bandwidth is needed for peak periods, then either the voice providor leases 6x bandwidth, or a higher-tier providor must provide the capacity for 6x bandwidth, and lease "bandwidth on demand" to the voice providor. The infrastructure must still support 6x bandwidth, with accompanying costs. Do you think "BigTelco" will lease bandwidth on demand without charging more for high levels of use during peak hours? Not on a large scale. This reminds me of the old arguements that "bandwidth costs would come down so fast that the Internet would be essentially free." Haven't seen that happen yet, either. > > Thus those who retail bandwidth will have the bulk of the revenue, > rather than those who wholesale it. The breakup and the addition of competition and second-tier voice providors hasn't killed AT&T yet. If anything does, it will be bloated corporate structure, not 2nd tier competition. (They're working on that - funny how years ago we spent gobs of tax dollars breaking up AT&T, and now they've gone and done it to themselves voluntarily). Most second-tier providors differentiate themselves through marketing and/or customer service. Customer service is a big expensive pain in the butt. Many larger companies out-source it anyway, when they can get away with it. Larger companies will still retail large accounts, and leave the smaller, less profitable crumbs to the niche marketers. I still see voice over the Internet as a hobby - nobody is going to spend $800 for a telephone, er "voice terminal." If I decide to, who will I call? Only others with similar equipment? That's not very functional. Yes, this new carrier could implement equipment in each CO to convert my call to POTS systems, so I can call my computerless Grandmama from my PC - what will this do to costs? Most of corporate America is still grappling with learning to use email. I don't see the business customer buying into voice services via PC anytime soon. The equipment costs per user are too high. I started working with a whole slew of telephony and convergence products years ago - they've been very slow to catch on. Yes, one day voice, video, and data will all be carried on the same infrastructure - using ATM, or a similar technology. The convergence is inevitable. Large corporate phone switches will communicate with the outside world via packet switched, rather than circuit switched networks. This isn't the same as the "save money on phone calls by using cheap Internet bandwidth and your PC" sales pitch, however. ob crypto (for anyone who read this far): When packet switched voice systems become a reality, how can secure calls be placed to any number? Key exchange during call set-up? How long will this make the call set-up? Ideas? -r.w. From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 12 14:52:35 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 05:52:35 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: <199608121716.KAA09849@mail.pacifier.com> At 11:02 PM 8/11/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 06:15 PM 8/11/96 -0400, Dave Farber wrote: >>attempt to explain that blackout and how to prevent such. We have not >>progressed very far. The avalanche behavior of power systems is still not >>well understood and techniques to prevent such failures are not obvious. > >It surprises me how little these systems appear to be monitored. >It took some hours for them to decide that the brush fire on the >California border didn't cause the system to shut down; >you'd think they'd know quickly that the subsystem shut itself down >or disconnected from the grid or whatever because of reason #17... The story previously being promoted says that approximately at the Oregon/California border, a fire caused problems with the transmission line. This morning, I read the new claim: extreme heat (presumably assisted by heat dissipated in the power line itself) cause the power cables near The Dalles (about 100 miles east of Portland, along the Columbia river) to stretch and sag, eventually shorting themselves out to trees near the ground. I find this claim EXTREMELY hard to believe. The temperature coefficient of expansion of steel is about 10 ppm/degree C, which means that even if the power lines heated up 200 degrees C, that's only 2000 ppm longer, or about 0.2% I don't know the formula to determine the length of a catenary, and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I'd imagine that this 0.2% increase in length won't increase the amount of sag by more than a factor of 10 higher, or 2%. That amount should be almost ignorable if the power line was competently installed and maintained. >One of my concerns about the situation is that it's only a week >or two after Clinton's speech about how The Government needs to protect the >National Information Infrastructure for us. I'm not paranoid enough >to think that they did it, but I'm sure that within a week we'll >see Al Gore or somebody making an NII Protection Agency speech >and Louis Freeh explaining that we need enhanced wiretap underwriting >to make sure that encryption-wielding hackers don't do it again. I've long believed that if incidents such as these were the work of saboteurs, it is in the interest of the ordinary citizen that communication with those responsible is maintained. If, on the other hand, the fact of the sabotage is covered up, that will only lead to more. The government, on the other hand, has an illegitimate interest in seeing it hidden (where it can be hidden; and where the government can't see a good reason to publicize it), because if uncovered it would tend to force the government to actually deal with the dissatisfied citizenry: not merely the ones doing the sabotage, but also the ones who have heard what their motivations are and at least partly agree with them. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From snow at smoke.suba.com Mon Aug 12 15:01:01 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 06:01:01 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases In-Reply-To: <199608101504.RAA03459@internal-mail.systemics.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Gary Howland wrote: > Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases | Could you please format your posts to 78 columns? It makes it difficult to read on a standard terminal. > BY GILES WHITTELL > AND NIGEL HAWKES > A high-powered electrical device under development at the Pentagon's Army Research > Laboratory in Adelphi, Maryland, is to be tested by police and border patrol agents and > even stop heart pacemakers. There is also the danger of loss of control when a car is > being driven at high speed. > Counter-measures would include using old-fashioned engines with no electronics, or > perhaps surrounding the most delicate components with shielding. The best might be to > get hold of one of the stun guns and use it to disable pursuing police vehicles. > Original article at http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/timnwsnws01022.html?1060389 > Will old fashioned engines be outlawed? > Will the "stun guns" be outlawed? > Will susceptible electronic systems become mandatory? > (and if so, why not just put a remote control switch in all cars?) One word: Pacemakers. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From fletch at ain.bls.com Mon Aug 12 15:06:29 1996 From: fletch at ain.bls.com (Mike Fletcher) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 06:06:29 +0800 Subject: Fun with M$ In-Reply-To: <199608121526.LAA07380@granite.cyg.net> Message-ID: <9608121727.AA18460@outland.ain_dev> > I don't see how anyone can call this a bug. Microsoft has chosen what Sun > should have: leave the security to the user, don't take it away from Good, leave it to Joe Sixpack who can bareley figure out how to move files around without deleting half of the system directory . . . > everyone. Java has been sverly crippled by the removal of features that > would have made applets truly usefull, like local disk access. By leaving Java has local disk access. Java _APPLETS_ are not allowed to access local disk (among other things) if the class is loaded from a network source. A class which is loaded from local disk has no such restrictions. > these abilities and allowing the user to choose whether or not to run the > object, leaves the trusted objects to be truly usefull. Microsoft has even > designed a system of trust verification for these objects throught the > trust chain and the MS download service. For details on the MS download > service look at the july 96 issue of Microsoft Systems Journal. Security > should be a user/parent decision not a general ban to protect a few. You are just a free to grab the Java class files for an applet and store them on your local disk as you are a CaptiveX component and let them have full run of your system. --- Fletch __`'/| fletch at ain.bls.com "Lisa, in this house we obey the \ o.O' ______ 404 713-0414(w) Laws of Thermodynamics!" H. Simpson =(___)= -| Ack. | 404 315-7264(h) PGP Print: 8D8736A8FC59B2E6 8E675B341E378E43 U ------ From ericd at shop.internet.net Mon Aug 12 15:17:55 1996 From: ericd at shop.internet.net (Eric Davis) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 06:17:55 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: Also remember that you have to deal with capacitive/bleedoff issues as well. It is hard to throw the off switch to an active 500,000 volt/??amp transmission line, esp under heavy load. The power in transit has gotta go somewhere. This gets even more fun when you deal with long haul DC transmission systems. These systems are the basis for a *very* large capacitor. MILES of flown wire, air dielectric, and earth. As metioned below, most all of the protection systems are in the "protect my local equipment" mode. So what do you do? The basis today is to watch voltage, current, and waveform (freq/shape stability). "Protect mode" happens if one is too far out of wack. It would take far too much time to cross ref local data against other remote monitoring stations to confirm validity. The time required to check the data would result in local system damage. Lets also not forget to protect the power yard worker(s) standing under the entrance busses when the surge comes knocking! Eric At 12:22 AM 8/12/96, Jim McCoy wrote: >Lucky (crypto-leprechaun) wrote: >> At 18:15 8/11/96, Dave Farber wrote: >> >The avalanche behavior of power systems is still not >> >well understood and techniques to prevent such failures are not obvious. >> >Same can be said of telephone and computer networks at different levels. >> >> Does somebody here have a pointer to literature on this topic? A system in >> which small localized disturbances can amplify, propagate through the >> system, leading to catastrophic failure is the worst of all possible >> designs. I fail to understand why a system as important as the power grid >> would display this type of behavior. Why is the grid negatively dampened? > >Because the system designed to fail non-destructively rather than risk >a power surge. Part of the problem is that the power being controlled >moves as fast as any information about the state of the network: all >decisions must be made locally at the switch level. When a major line >fails the power generation stations can not just "turn off the juice" at >the speed required, the power must either be redistributed or else the >switch overloads and shuts down to prevent a massive power spike. The >power companies would rather face the ire of consumers without power for >an evening than the outcry that would happen if every toaster, microwave, >and computer on the west coast was fried by the spike caused by 3 gigawatts >being dumped into grids that could not handle the load (not to mention the >long-term blackouts caused by local switching equipment getting fried.) >In this case the system must fail to prevent damage. > >The great east coast blackout was caused by a $50 switch which wore out. >The switch happened to control a chunk of load which was re-routed on to >another line, causing a cascade failure as the excess load caused other >switches to fail when it was dumped on to those lines (and the excess >load caused by these other switches tripping accellerated the failure.) >Power distribution is not like telecom, if a phone switch dies the calls >end; the failure does not endanger the upstream switch with overload >from bits not going anywhere. > >Imagine that cars on highways had no brakes until they reached an offramp >but the DOT could apply a kill-switch to segments between offramps (tying >this thread into another non-crypto thread on the list :),if a failure in >the roadway caused traffic to stop then all of the upstream traffic would >have to be dumped off the road via offramps that were only one or two lanes. >This would cause further bottlenecks and the kill-switch would need to be >applied to more and more segments upstream to prevent the traffic stopped >or being slowly bled off from causing more problems. No imagine that >offramp-to-offramp messages were transmitted via messengers travelling >upstream in the carpool lane :) > >Even the power company's secret experiments in the cores of nuclear reactors >have not found a way to get around the 186,000 km/s speed limit on everything. > >jim ----------------------------------------------------- Eric Davis ericd at cyberfarm.com Co-Founder MediaCast: http://www.mediacast.com/ ----------------------------------------------------- From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 12 15:29:07 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 06:29:07 +0800 Subject: Unmetered Net Usage Message-ID: <199608121741.KAA11226@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:20 PM 8/11/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >Will "unmetered" usage go away? It depends on a lot of factors. Right now, >unmetered usage is a big enough marketing draw that it appears to >outcompete metered usage plans. Sure, there are people like me who pay a >flat rate (in my case, $20/month) and yet who are on for several hours a >day. But the subscribers who also pay the $20/mo and yet who are on only >briefly to check their mail are not clamoring to switch to metered usage. > >If Internet telephony becomes a big deal, I still suspect unmetered usage >will be common. If the capacity isn't there, from the ISP through the >various links to the other person's ISP then there will be stalls and >delays. Think of it as evolution in action, like crowded freeways. We need to consider separately costs of unmetered access to the ISP, and unmetered access to the Internet. I expect that the main reason for these limited-time plans have little to do with Internet traffic, and a lot to do with local phone link limits. One big cost for at least small ISPs is local telephone lines. Due to the "infinite wisdom" of rate commissions, business-line charges are substantially higher than residential. (and ISP's are businesses...) A person who uses 6 hours per day of connection to his ISP is occupying at least 1/4th of the capacity of one phone line, and given typical circadian usage patterns, in practice he's using 1/3rd or more. If the ISP's cost for that telephone line is $30 per month, then that user must be charged $10 per month for this service just to cover this cost. That customer, however, might only be using a rather tiny fraction of the ISP's actual Internet-line capacity, except possibly when his Internet telephone is operating. Also, the customer isn't inclined to occupy his own telephone for this length of time, either, especially if he has only one line. So it seems to me that within 5 years or so, there ought to be a powerful incentive to wire up apartment complexes and business parks with alternative Internet/Internet-telephone connections, ones which bypass the phoneco for at least the first few hundred feet. This, possibly in concert with a ISDN-driving concentrator or a cable-modem, should reduce the cost of the customer-to-the-ISP line to a very low value. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From farber at central.cis.upenn.edu Mon Aug 12 15:30:52 1996 From: farber at central.cis.upenn.edu (Dave Farber) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 06:30:52 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] Re: US Power Outages Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812154246.00baecb8@linc.cis.upenn.edu> I dnt have the reference handy bit IEEE Spectrum published in about May 66 a real good description of why the Great Northeast Blackout happened. From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Mon Aug 12 15:55:52 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 06:55:52 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960812173700.002f9044@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 19:36 11/08/96 -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > >Bart Croughs writes: >> But there is another axiom of economics which the >> nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of >> capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the >> amount of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the >> wages are. > >This must be some new axiom of economics that I had not heard of. > >> If American companies are moving capital to Third World >> countries because of the low wages in these countries, then the workers >> in the Third World will of course be better off. But in the US, the >> amount of capital will be lowered. > >???? > >> So the American workers will be able to get other jobs, but these >> jobs will pay less, because of the diminished amount of capital in >> the US. > >This is truly one of the oddest economic theses I've seen in years. Indeed. Bart makes a very remarkable assumption, which is that the total amount of capital in the fastest growing industry in human history is constant. As I mentioned in my note (which was a bit long by my standards, so you are forgiven if you haven't read it) software producers are software consumers as well. So, if the software industry grows in the world, it can only benefit the producers in the US, who make most of the compilers and sophisticated utilities that programmers need in order to develop software. The danger to the US software writer comes from another direction, one which this list is thoroughly familiar with: government policies, such as ITAR. Gilmore, I believe, plans to get the software written for secure Internet routing outside the US, to not fall foul of ITAR. As security, internet commerce and other applications needing crypto become a more important part of software development, others might follow -- of course it won't hurt that the move reduces costs, but that will not be the prime motivation. This will not be the first industry that the US government developed and nurtured, only to hand on a platter to foreign competitors: CNC machine tools is an example I am familiar with. For long, the writing was on the wall, but when the debacle came, it was swift. If I'm not mistaken, the Japanese share in the US market of CNC machining centers increased from 2% to 51% over a 2-year period. The problem there, at least partly, was that government encouraged machine tool R&D and industry to cater to the needs of defense, rather than the rest of us. Sounds familiar? So, while US software isn't in any danger of losing quite that badly, as I have explained, if the US loses revenue and capital in this sector, it will only have its own government to blame. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From talon57 at well.com Mon Aug 12 16:09:23 1996 From: talon57 at well.com (Brian D Williams) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 07:09:23 +0800 Subject: FCC_ups Message-ID: <199608121836.LAA04772@well.com> Disclaimer: All opinions are my own, I do not speak for Ameritech or it's alliance partners. Lucky Green writes: >I am glad to see some movement in this area. I designed a similar >system for a previous employer of mine. But the real choke point >is the local loop. As of this day, the local telos still have a de >facto monopoly in the local markets. The new competitors (the same >old Phone Company) that we will see in the near future seem to >show no desire to deliver the really interesting services that are >now possible. They long distance carriers about to enter the local >markets plan to offer the same old stuff at a (perhaps) somewhat >lower price. First I would like to mention Lucky that I always enjoy your posts. Second I would like to say that as I have mentioned previously, the RBOC I work for filed for complete unbundling of the local loop in March of 93. We are not the one's holding up the show. >The company I used to work for has technology capable of >delivering a 10 Mb/s Ethernet plus 100 ISDN B channels to your >home, using the very same wires already in your wall. Keep this in >mind next time you hear what great new services the local telcos >are about to offer. Then demand better. 10 Mb/s ethernet and 100 ISDN B channels (64k each)? I would certainly like to here more! Unfortunately as I have also previously pointed out, point-to-point copper is a thing of the past, it is rare and expensive now. The current fiber-to-the-curb standard involves "slick 96" muxes which use 4 framed T-1's (1.536 Mb/s) to provide 96 voice channels. Thanks for the info. Brian From ericd at shop.internet.net Mon Aug 12 16:32:12 1996 From: ericd at shop.internet.net (Eric Davis) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 07:32:12 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: At 11:02 PM 8/11/96, Bill Stewart wrote: >It surprises me how little these systems appear to be monitored. >It took some hours for them to decide that the brush fire on the >California border didn't cause the system to shut down; >you'd think they'd know quickly that the subsystem shut itself down >or disconnected from the grid or whatever because of reason #17... The fire "story" was, I guess, a result of excessive media fodder. (whatever sells the headlines....) Example: This morning (Monday 7:00am PST) STATION A: Replayed a recorded press briefing, with a head from PG&E, stating that the cause is *not* yet known, however it *MIGHT* have something to do with the excessive loads/demands on the system during the high temp season. (AC units running, etc..) -- minutes later -- STATION B: A newsperson *read* the news. This person stated, "At a recent press briefing, a PG&E official said the outage *WAS* caused by excessive loads. (quoting the same briefing that I just heard, from the source, on STATION A) Thank you Mass Media! Eric Reminds me of the aftermath of the last large SF quake. I lived in Santa Cruz at the time. After the quake we all kicked back and had a large yard party to kill the time. An, un-named, news network was broadcasting, nation wide, live telephone calls from people in the SF area. One call was from a person in Santa Cruz, or so he said. He told the news network, and at the same time live to the nation, that Santa Cruz was completely leveled, dead bodies everywhere, and only a handfull of people seemed to have survive. Needless to say my Grandparents in Tennessee were not to excited... ----------------------------------------------------- Eric Davis ericd at cyberfarm.com Co-Founder MediaCast: http://www.mediacast.com/ ----------------------------------------------------- From jon at aggroup.com Mon Aug 12 17:09:57 1996 From: jon at aggroup.com (Yanni) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:09:57 +0800 Subject: Unmetered Net Usage Message-ID: <9608121340.AA47329@jon.clearink.com> > So it seems to me that within 5 years or so, there ought to be a > powerful incentive to wire up apartment complexes and business parks > with alternative Internet/Internet-telephone connections, ones > which bypass the phoneco for at least the first few hundred feet. > This, possibly in concert with a ISDN-driving concentrator or > a cable-modem, should reduce the cost of the customer-to-the-ISP line to > a very low value. > > Jim Bell > jimbell at pacifier.com I can see it now. Apartments full of geeks because the apartments were originally built with 100BaseX to each place and a T3 in the basement going direct to the local ISP. Tack on another $200/month or whatever to the apartment cost ( geeks can afford that for sure ) and one might end up having a pretty nice online melrose place. I wonder if anybody has done that yet... -jon Jon (no h) S. Stevens yanni at clearink.com ClearInk WebMagus http://www.clearink.com/ finger pgp at sparc.clearink.com for pgp pub key We are hiring! http://www.clearink.com/clearink/home/job.html From jim at ACM.ORG Mon Aug 12 17:15:58 1996 From: jim at ACM.ORG (Jim Gillogly) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:15:58 +0800 Subject: A ban on cryptography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608122059.NAA03158@mycroft.rand.org> tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: >Anyone know anything about the status of this bill? >--begin bill excerpt-- >S.1666 >Department of Commerce Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997 (Passed by the >Senate) >SEC. 1042. PROHIBITION ON THE DISTRIBUTION OF INFORMATION >RELATING TO USE OF CRYPTOGRAPHY FOR A CRIMINAL PURPOSE. It's bogus. THOMAS (http://thomas.loc.gov) shows S.1666 as a Hatch-sponsored bill introduced 04/15/96: A bill to authorize the Federal district court for the Central Division of Utah to hold court in Provo and St. George. Jim Gillogly 20 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 20:59 From adamsc at io-online.com Mon Aug 12 17:19:25 1996 From: adamsc at io-online.com (Chris Adams) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:19:25 +0800 Subject: Read; NOW Message-ID: <199608122006.NAA07504@cygnus.com> On 11 Aug 96 23:24:24 -0800, unix_code at geocities.com wrote: > Hi I'm Unix Code and have a few things to ask...(it may not go with >Cryptography but go ahead and read) I won't say anything if you won't... # Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! # Automatically receive my resume or PGPKEY by sending email with a subject # of 'send PGPKEY' or 'send resume'. Capitalization counts so be careful! # Web site: http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 12 17:21:41 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:21:41 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812211716.00893f04@panix.com> At 10:15 AM 8/12/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >This morning, I read the new claim: extreme heat (presumably assisted by >heat dissipated in the power line itself) cause the power cables near The >Dalles (about 100 miles east of Portland, along the Columbia river) to >stretch and sag, eventually shorting themselves out to trees near the ground. The real cause was inadequate supply of nuclear power plants caused by technophobe agitation. DCF From wb8foz at nrk.com Mon Aug 12 17:32:12 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:32:12 +0800 Subject: Name search -- Enigma owner Message-ID: <199608122123.RAA04344@nrk.com> There was a person in .ch with with several Enigmas, including a four-rotor Naval model. I think his name was ?Fro....? Does anyone recall the person I mean? -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 12 17:35:16 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:35:16 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812211714.00887048@panix.com> At 07:22 AM 8/12/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: > > >Think your lawyer would be willing to give his name and a statement on >this? If a cypherpunk ever got in trouble and could say, "I was told by >the lawyer XYZZY this was legal", it might help. :-) > > -- Vince I didn't say it was legal. I said it wasn't fraud. DCF From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 12 17:35:17 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:35:17 +0800 Subject: Article on Electronic Commerce with a few too many assumptions Message-ID: <199608122000.NAA19713@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:32 PM 8/11/96 EDT, E. ALLEN SMITH wrote: >[Permit me to recommend that you read this very interesting draft paper >and send its author, Andrew Odlyzko, detailed comments.] > Andrew Odlyzko > AT&T Labs - Research > amo at research.att.com > Preliminary version, August 9, 1996 [lotsa stuff deleted] > >There are many examples in the marketplace of behavior that appears >even less fair. For example, in 1990, IBM introduced the LaserPrinter >E, a lower cost version of its LaserPrinter. The two version were >identical, except that the E version printed 5 pages per minute >instead of 10 for the regular one. This was achieved (as was found by >independent testers, and was not advertised by IBM) through the >addition of additional chips to the E version that did nothing but >slow down processing. Thus the E model cost more to produce, sold for >less, and was less useful. However, as Deneckere and McAfee show in >their paper [DeneckereM], which contains many more examples of this >type (referred to as "damaged goods"), it can be better for all >classes of consumers to allow such behavior, however offensive it >might be to the general notions of fairness. Consumers who do not >need to print much, and are not willing to pay for the more expensive >version, do obtain a laser printer. Consumers who do need high >capacity obtain a lower price than they might otherwise have to pay >since the manufacturer's fixed costs are spread over more units. I too find this concept offensive, at least to the extent that it is kept a secret from the marketplace. Even so, as a libertarian and free-market capitalist, I certainly see nothing wrong with "allowing such behavior," and indeed I'd see something wrong with NOT "allowing" it. Nevertheless, to the extent it occurs it should be well understood and identified for what it is. You might recall the Intel 386SX microprocessor, which was the 16-bit-bus version of the 386 DX, which itself had a full 32-bit bus. At the time the DX was selling for many hundreds of dollars, probably about $3-400 or so, Intel sold the SX for about $80. However, chances are good that the only difference internally between these devices is the bus interface unit, so the size and complexity of these two chips would have been virtually identical, and thus their costs would likewise be the same. The reason for their vast difference in price was this "damaged goods" concept. (A similar situation occurred with the 486SX versus the 486DX.) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 12 17:50:39 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:50:39 +0800 Subject: A ban on cryptography? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812211718.008814cc@panix.com> At 03:53 AM 8/12/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > > `(l) It shall be unlawful for any person to teach or demonstrate the >use of cryptographic systems, or to distribute by any means information >pertaining to, in whole or in part, the construction of digital ciphers, >if the person intends or knows, that such cryptographic materials or >information will be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that >constitutes a Federal criminal offense or a criminal purpose affecting >interstate commerce.'. Luckily, the nature of the Web is such that publicly placing something on a server would probably never be held to fulfill your or Di Fi's intent language. You are clearly making it available to all comers. No specific customer at all since anyone can read it. DCF From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 12 18:05:01 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:05:01 +0800 Subject: A ban on cryptography? Message-ID: Anyone know anything about the status of this bill? --begin bill excerpt-- S.1666 Department of Commerce Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997 (Passed by the Senate) SEC. 1042. PROHIBITION ON THE DISTRIBUTION OF INFORMATION RELATING TO USE OF CRYPTOGRAPHY FOR A CRIMINAL PURPOSE. (a) UNLAWFUL CONDUCT- Section 875 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection: `(l) It shall be unlawful for any person to teach or demonstrate the use of cryptographic systems, or to distribute by any means information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the construction of digital ciphers, if the person intends or knows, that such cryptographic materials or information will be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal criminal offense or a criminal purpose affecting interstate commerce.'. --end bill excerpt-- --Tim May (P.S. it may not be real, but it _could_ be real.) HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From bart.croughs at tip.nl Mon Aug 12 18:08:46 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:08:46 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88A7.0A479540@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Sandy Sandfort wrote: >On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Bart Croughs wrote: >> If American companies are moving capital to Third World >> countries because of the low wages in these countries, then the >> workers in the Third World will of course be better off. But in >> the US, the amount of capital will be lowered. So the American >> workers will be able to get other jobs, but these jobs will pay >> less, because of the diminished amount of capital in the US. >The fallacy in this argument is the assumption that because some >American capital moves overseas, there will be less capital >available in the US for investment/wages. It doesn't contemplate >infusion of foreign capital investments in American industries >that have a competitive advantage over their foreign competition. At least you agree that wages are determined by the amount of capital invested! As to your argument, I don't see why the movement of American capital overseas would lead to the infusion of foreign capital investments in American industries. It seems to me that these two processes work independently. If they do work independently, then the movement of American capital overseas will lead to less capital in the U.S. Bart Croughs From bart.croughs at tip.nl Mon Aug 12 18:11:59 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:11:59 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88A7.14E3A5C0@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Perry Metzger wrote: >Bart Croughs writes: >> But there is another axiom of economics which the >>nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of >> capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the >> amount of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the >> wages are. >This must be some new axiom of economics that I had not heard of. It's not a sin to be ignorant, but to boast about it... I recommend you read the great libertarian /austrian economists: Murray Rothbard, Henry Hazlitt, etc. Bart Croughs From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 12 18:19:55 1996 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:19:55 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Newspapers and basic science (was: US Power Outages) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4uo8jp$t5o@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article , Z.B. wrote: >Now that may not sound like too much, but >the lines were carrying at least 3000Mw of electricity, enough "to power >3-1/2 Seattles for a day" (quote from local newspaper). Watts are a measure of energy per unit time; it makes sense to say "60 W powers a light bulb", not "60 W powers a light bulb for one hour". But my _favourite_ example of this was a newspaper clipping I used to have that said that in the previous month, the city had received "160 square pounds of rain". That just defied common sense. - Ian "closely followed by temperatures 'doubling' (which happens more often when they use Celcius)" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMg+llkZRiTErSPb1AQHvDwQAqdxKaHm4PewE6e78gAGNTs/bBsbnXbKt +kIpplEjU70eK+zREpbvemc2//dEkH4ilW1FKvkWef7Tc06kPghEHp5HfWGCq/oq Je85MyEOrqrnoADO0ehS5iqnyLFb5lRX5ksciv+GtV4GcS8vnRF3m0ulQZONKBSG 9/wqC6Pmbgc= =ozoT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Mon Aug 12 18:20:31 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:20:31 +0800 Subject: Advice from a CPSR conference organizer on conferences Message-ID: <01I871902PNK9JD5LV@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Given various people on here interested in organizing cryptography conferences, I thought the below would be interesting. -Allen From: Phil Agre X-URL: http://communication.ucsd.edu/pagre/rre.html X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1259 Notes on organizing conferences Phil Agre August 1996 This article is adapted from the post mortem that I write immediately after organizing the 1994 CPSR Annual Meeting, together with notes to myself from other meetings I have been involved in organizing. Its purpose is to offer future organizers the benefit of our experience. I accepted the job of program chair because I wanted to develop my skills for organizing events, and I definitely learned some things along the way. One thing I learned is apparently very subtle, since I've never seen or heard of anybody explaining it. The professional world has a special way of defining identity: people are identified with issues. When I started planning the program, my initial approach was simply to start with the most dynamic individuals in the general area that CPSR covers. So I sent out a batch of e-mail messages to well-connected personages, asking them who we should get to speak. Alas, few of them were able to say anything very useful, saying (usually in a nice way) that they regarded my request as overly vague. I gather that one is supposed to decide first what issues to cover, and then ask who is associated with that issue. For example, "who are some good people to speak on the political aspects of building community networks?" Or, "who is a good person to speak on technology activism on issues affecting people with disabilities?" This is nearly the only form of question I could get answered. Even a simple variant like, "who has something fresh and original to say about topic X?" didn't work very well. It's as though everyone maintains a lookup table in their heads, indexing people to issues. Having started this way, some other problems then arise. Sometimes you can't get the number one speaker on a given issue to speak, so then you ask who else you might get, and you'll get some more names. It's good to ask whether so-and-so is a good speaker or not. Sometimes you'll hear someone say something bad (or something diplomatically irrelevant) about a potential speaker whom you haven't met, and such comments will probably weigh heavily with you, for the simple reason that it's a disaster to schedule an unskilled or irresponsible speaker on your program. This dynamic bothered me, since it seemed to have a built-in tendency to reinforce a single individual's standing even though other people might be equally talented; if someone already has a reputation as a speaker in a given area, those other people don't get invited to speak, so they can't develop reputations as speakers. I had a certain amount of success asking, "who deserves a chance to be heard on this issue?", and some people even volunteered the names of people who they felt deserved a chance. This made me feel better. Start early. You need to get your publicity out in time for monthly publications listing in their schedule. I don't know when precisely this is, since we didn't come close to making the deadline. I didn't start the publicity machinery for our October conference until we had every last speaker pinned down in early summer. Big mistake: people go on vacation in the summer, and your rate of progress in assembling the program will plummet starting in late June. Identify your prominent, featured speakers and get them pinned down first; they're the only ones you need to get your publicity under way. I found e-mail seductive; it's easy to publicize something to the whole net in a few days, so I conveniently forgot that large parts of the world don't read announcements on the net -- print publicity is still absolutely necessary. We had a professional PR person working for us. She works at UCSD in the PR office. She's perfectly good at her job, but I've learned some lessons for working with such people in the future. One is to clarify goals. My central goal was to get a lot of interesting people to attend our meeting; this meant PR aimed at obtaining advance publicity. UCSD's main goal, though, was to get lots of press coverage on the day of the meeting itself; this meant PR aimed at getting reporters to attend the meeting. These two goals are equally valid, but they happen on different schedules. Local advance publicity mostly happened in the three or four days before the meeting, and with a little effort we did well. We made some mistakes in the meeting brochure. One was that the brochure only mentioned the three main speakers, even though it had room for much more. This might not have been so bad, except that the three-line summaries of those three speakers' speeches all sounded pretty similar. I have no way of knowing how much difference this made to the final turnout, but I do think we should have taken more conscious care to identify broad categories of people we wanted in attendance, and then making sure each one sees something on the brochure that they find appealing. When this problem came up, we made a single-page (front and back of a green sheet of paper) version of the electronic meeting announcement, including the full program and registration information. We ended up distributing hundreds of these, and I am sure that they gave lots of people a good idea of what the organization is about. I made some mistakes when booking the speakers for the meeting. I don't regret any of the people we chose, though I ended up disagreeing with a couple of them much more intensely than I had thought I would. The problem was with financial matters. We had a $500-per-speaker budget for people who were coming from outside California, so we had to minimize the number of such people. The problem is that some speakers simply cannot attend for $500, since their travel expenses simply cannot be covered for $500. My response to this problem was denial: I just got vague and hoped it would go away. But of course it didn't. Some speakers took losses despite my clear statement of the $500 limit, and I should have been even clearer with them that they should book flights etc right away to ensure that their losses are not greater than they're happy with. The reason I didn't do these things was that I was focused on getting the people to accept our invitations, especially in one case where our first choice declined after weeks of hemming and hawing. (If you're invited to speak at a conference, please decide whether to accept right away.) One thing we did right was to send out a press release. The UCSD PR person wrote it. I thought that the press release, like all of the press coverage, tended to trivialize things with buzzwords like "access to the information superhighway". But I was repeatedly assured that that's how it is: you have to use words that people understand. Anyway, we sent our press release out on PR Newswire, and I mailed it to all of the local computer press. I also mailed it to an eccentric local newspaper that's distributed free in coffee houses, and they reprinted it verbatim. I found that San Diego has all kinds of free publications that I hadn't even heard of, including something called Terminal Velocity that's aimed at the cyberculture and comics crowd -- 40,000 circulation. Not to be sneezed at. One issue was the phone number to use in the press release -- where should people call for more information about the meeting? At first I used the CPSR number in Palo Alto since nobody here wanted to field a million phone calls. But this was a mistake. Lots of people don't want to call long distance, and once I broke down and started listing my own office phone number, I only got a couple dozen calls, including several calls from very interesting people. The only category of calls that bothered me was from people wanting technical help with their computers. Most of these calls were easy enough, since I could send them to local user groups, but one of them was extremely obnoxious. On the whole, being the contact person listed in these publications was a far more positive experience than I thought it would be. Another thing we did right was outreach. This was a principle of the meeting from the beginning. Think of the meeting as primarily an occasion for organizing. Call people on the phone, tell them about the meeting, and ask them who you should be speaking with. At the very beginning of the process, write a small announcement of the meeting and invite people to become involved and sent it out on the net; we got some excellent contacts this way. The Internet may not reach the masses yet, but we found that San Diego now has a pretty reasonable density of Internet penetration among computer people. Announcements about CPSR events here have reached all sorts of interesting people by being passed hand-to-hand through the net. We made dozens of phone calls along the way: computer user groups, Latino organizations, city government, political activists, commercial Internet providers, BBS operators, industry people, and so forth. People have heard about the "info highway", so your job is to get your message boiled down to something that sounds like your interlocutor's next step on their way to the net. Don't try to "sell" your organization or issue to someone who's not interested; rather, if they're already interested in the issues then make the meeting process tangible for them. We visited a number of computer user group meetings; I also called up the organizers of several such meetings and asked if they would be willing to announce the Annual Meeting, and sent them copies of the aforementioned "green sheet" schedule. Early on in the process, I organized a speaker series that Dave Noelle did good publicity for, making posters and sending them to various people and publications. Since the first speaker's topic was privacy, the "Reader" (free weekly tabloid) decided to feature her talk, and their article drew a few dozen people. We also sent the announcements out on the Internet, and each talk had at least a couple dozen people. At the beginning of each talk, I introduced myself and told people about the conference. We sent around a sign-up sheet. We got a bit of a mailing list and some good contacts from that process, but I cannot swear that it was really worth all the effort. Maybe we would have reached those people through other channels. The speaker series was intellectually worthwhile though. The meeting weekend itself was so thoroughly organized, primarily by the local librarians, that it's hard for me to draw any particular lessons besides getting good people to do the work. Typing this now, I can't think of anything that went wrong that's worth telling you about. Oh yes. We got screwed by the student center, whose new management decided that she wasn't interested in honoring the agreement we had made with her predecessor. Of course we didn't have it in writing, because we had been assured that we didn't *need* to have it in writing. After I grouched at her a while, she told us that she would "honor your agreement" by charging us 2.5 times what that agreement had called for. I flipped out and decided that we would move the meeting to an engineering lecture hall that I could book for free because I'm a professor. But hey -- if I wasn't a professor then we could have been shafted. So remember, get it in writing. No matter what conversations you've had with them, they've always got more rules printed on sheets of paper that you've never heard about. You can't enforce your agreements until they're written down. And beware of those extra little charges. We were told that the banquet would cost $X per person, but when the paperwork finally arrived, that turned out to mean $X plus tax and gratuity plus a $400 "facility fee". (I then got this infuriatingly condescending little speech to the effect that this is a standard industry practice -- i.e., everyone does it -- and that I must therefore not know what I'm doing. But setting out to take revenge about such things will probably not serve your real goals.) Get it in writing. In doing the early outreach, I had to learn some lessons. I know that it's good to consult people: call them, visit them, tell them what you're doing, and say "what advice do you have for me?". This makes friends for you and the organization and makes people feel included. It also prevents you from being perceived as grabbing someone else's turf -- that is, claiming sovereignty over an issue that someone else has invested effort identifying themselves with already. Often the people you talk to will actually have good advice for you. (If they have an agenda or an axe then you can usually figure out what it is and steer around it.) Find out who knows people and approach them this way. They don't have to be obvious allies. Even people who specialize in elite networking in your city are perfectly good candidates for this, though you should pick the highest status individual in your organizing group to approach such people. A professor of any rank will do fine. Get rid of your political jargon. Be able to talk to people in language they can understand. Evolve a bunch of honest ways of explaining what the meeting is about. If you cannot come up with an honest way of explaining your meeting to someone then that person is not part of your audience. If they *ought* to be part of your audience then you need to go back and redesign the meeting. Anyway, this cycle of asking advice sometimes became clumsy when I was speaking with someone who wanted to be a speaker at the meeting. It's hard to invite someone to participate in a meeting and simultaneously tell them they can't speak at the meeting. So decide ahead of time which people might want to be speakers, and what you'll say when they explicitly ask you to put them on the program. The standard response is to hide behind your program committee, saying "that would be great, I'll take it up with the program committee". But a lot of people don't buy that. So you won't always end up on perfectly positive terms with people. One way you can be helpful to people is to explicitly invite them to make their organization's (or company's, or whatever) literature available on the conference literature tables. We had several books and journals being advertised, along with several nonprofit Internet providers and local computer organizations. I'm sure we could have had many more if I had gotten those literature invitations out earlier. Anybody who isn't attending your meeting on a corporate expense account will care a lot about how much it costs. Make it cheap. If you work with professional meeting organizers, or people who are accustomed to the world of expense accounts, you will have to resist their seemingly inexorable impulses to make everything "nice" by piling on exotic banquets, racks of A/V equipment, free notebooks for everyone, hotel rooms for speakers, nice little selections of juices and cookies at breaks, and so on. These people mean well, but you will need to bring them back to fiscal reality gently, step by step. Make conscious choices about who should run panels, give opening and closing remarks, introduce speakers, etc. We made good choices, but I wasn't thinking about the issue until very late. If you have any speakers in wheelchairs, plan way ahead for their housing and transportation. Carefully walk the whole path that they will need to travel from curbside to podium, and make extra sure that the necessary doors will be unlocked for handicapped access, including bathrooms. I didn't like the page I wrote about the Annual Meeting for the summer issue of the CPSR Newsletter. I *should* have written an advertisement aimed at turning out the maximum number of CPSR members, most of whom have had rather little personal contact with the organization and really do need to be "sold" on the Annual Meeting, which after all requires a real expenditure of time and money. Instead I wrote a fancy think piece about strategy and gave too much attention about our plans to connect to the local community. I'm glad that we connected to the local community, but that was not the major message to emphasize for people from outside the local community. We put up a WWW page for the Annual Meeting program and registration. It was fun, but I have no idea what difference it made. I *do* know that it's useless to put up a WWW page unless you advertise it by sending messages to various mailing lists. When you're about to choose a date for the meeting, make sure you ask all of the people who know lots of organizations. We had an unfortunate conflict with a AAAS/ABA workshop on cyberspace ethics and law in Washington. Get people together early and brainstorm about the meeting. People have lots of great ideas. Let their ideas influence you so that your thinking is broadened and you're making your decisions more consciously than you might be otherwise. I was glad that we clarified early what jobs the National Office does. They ended up doing some extra jobs, and we ended up doing pieces of some things that I had originally been happy to let them do, but clear assignments of tasks are good. Draw on the experience of the people who have organized the meeting in earlier years. And then when you're done, write down your own experiences to benefit others. - end - From bart.croughs at tip.nl Mon Aug 12 18:35:56 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:35:56 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88A7.0F5BA1C0@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> My statement that the wages depend on the amount of capital invested, has received a bad press. I thought cypherpunks were economically literate, so I didn't explain the principle and I didn't give any sources for further reading. This proved to be a mistake. To avoid this kind of uninformed criticism in the future, I recommend my critics read the following books, which can all be ordered from Laissez-Faire Books: 1) The economics of liberty (ed. L. Rockwell); 2) The free market reader (ed. L. Rockwell) - both books were published by the Ludwig von Mises Institute. 3) Economics in one lesson - Henry Hazlitt. These three books contain popular essays about economics, following the principles of the austrian school, the most radical free market school in economics. Some quotes: Henry Hazlitt in 'economics in one lesson' (p. 139): "The best way to raise wages, therefore, is to raise marginal labor productivity. This can be done by many methods: by an increase in capital accumulation - i.e. by an increase in the machines with which the workers are aided..." Murray Rothbard in 'the free market reader' (p. 31): "Wage rates are low in many foreign countries because capital equipment is small and technologically primitive. Unaided by much capital, worker productivity is far lower than in the United States." Lew Rockwell in 'the economics of liberty' (p. 26): "Wages are determined by the productivity of the individual laborer, which in turn is largely determined by the amount of capital invested per worker." I could go on, but I think this will suffice. Now I will explain why the austrian economists are right. Imagine Robinson Crusoe. In the beginning, he catches fish with his bare hands. He has no capital investment, and consequently he is not very productive. His wage will be low (he will not catch much fish). If there is more capital investment - if, for example, he has a fishing rod - he will catch more fish in less time. His productivity is higher. His wage is higher (more fish). If there is still more capital investment - if, for example, he has a boat and fishing nets - he will catch even more fish. His productivity is higher. His wage is higher. Etcetera. So, it's really not difficult to see that the Robin's standard of living depends on the amount of capital available on his island. The same goes for the rest of humanity. Bart Croughs From rah at shipwright.com Mon Aug 12 19:10:56 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:10:56 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. In-Reply-To: <9608121346.AB00628@anon.penet.fi> Message-ID: At 6:51 PM -0400 8/12/96, Vince wrote: > Many fortune 500 companies have offshore corporations for "self > insurance". Many many movies have corporations offshore just for that > movie. These are type of "clean" corporations that taxhavens like. George Soros' Quantum Fund is an "NV" corporation, domiciled in the Netherlands Antilles, for instance. We went over this about two years ago, but the original ;-) connotation of "e$" was eurodollar, or expatriate dollars held outside the US banking system. For a decade or so, maybe still, this was an excellent way to raise money for US corporations. Most of the Fortune XX companies did this stuff, and probably still do, all to avoid Uncle's sticky fingers. While we may be talking about something else here entirely :-), remember that tax avoidance is not necessarily tax evasion. And, of course, jurisdiction shopping ("regulatory arbitrage") isn't necessarily breaking the law. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From demo at offshore.com.ai Mon Aug 12 19:18:54 1996 From: demo at offshore.com.ai (Vince) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:18:54 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exagerated. In-Reply-To: <9608121346.AB00628@anon.penet.fi> Message-ID: > > And Anguilla is first and foremost a taxhaven. But it tries hard to be a > > very clean taxhaven (does not want drug money etc). I think that "clean" > > corporations operating here tax free is a potentially huge market. > > This is an illusion. There ain't no such thing as a clean corporation > operating in a clean tax haven. Every overseas corp that is doing > something they can't do without interference back onshore, is running the > gauntlet. In taxhaven industry jargon, "clean" means they are avoiding taxes only. No drugs, no money laundering, no violent crime, no stolen money, no fraud. Many fortune 500 companies have offshore corporations for "self insurance". Many many movies have corporations offshore just for that movie. These are type of "clean" corporations that taxhavens like. -- Vince From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Mon Aug 12 19:29:47 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:29:47 +0800 Subject: Police on the Net Message-ID: <01I876IU1AN89JD5RL@mbcl.rutgers.edu> First, I'd be interested in knowing some of those online reporting addresses, and how much limits they place on what can be mailed to them... persuading these cops to deal with the improper use of another's computer (i.e., spam) would seem to be a distinct possibility in diverting them from other activities. Second, it would appear possible (unless they're encrypting it) to intercept some of these email lists of theirs - if necessary, by forging a subscribe to an _overseas_ nymserver that isn't too well known (unlike, say, anon.penet.fi). That's about on the same grounds as their mention of "know thine enemy." (It is, of course, pretty certain that various libertarian groups are among those monitored, such as cypherpunks.) Third, this gives additional reasons not to give out one's address to anyone. What people know about me is a post office box and my old address. -Allen > webslingerZ > LONG ARM OF THE LAW IS GOING ONLINE > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 Seattle Post-Intelligencer > (Aug 10, 1996 00:05 a.m. EDT) -- When police "net" a crook these days, > cops may be referring to the Internet. [...] > On the Internet, citizens anonymously report drug dealers to the > cyberpolice, check out crime in their neighborhoods, calculate their > risk of being murdered and communicate directly with the chief of > police. > Police say the Internet is a powerful and versatile law-enforcement > tool: Communication is immediate and crosses jurisdictional > boundaries, information is just a keystroke away and the cost is > commonly less than hiring a police officer. > "I think it's the most effective money you can spend to prevent > crime," said Bill Taylor, crime analyst for the Sacramento, Calif., > Police Department, which has developed one of the nation's most > sophisticated Internet police sites. > More than 2,000 law-enforcement agencies have gone online, extending > the long reach of the law to millions of Internet users, said Ken > Reeves, a Microsoft manager who recently established a Web site > promoting new technology in law enforcement. > "They're creating virtual police," he said. [...] > The Internet also has become a popular tool for police to communicate > among themselves. > Thousands of police officers subscribe to electronic mailing lists and > read electronic bulletin boards where they can discuss ethical issues > in private and exchange information about firearms, narcotics and > other sensitive topics. > "These are things you don't want to make public, but you need other > professionals to bounce off ideas," said Ira Wilsker, a former police > officer who is leading a series of U.S. Department of Justice seminars > on law enforcement and the Internet. > Run for and by police officers, the computer exchanges often offer > information that cannot be found elsewhere, Wilsker said. For example, > police raised the alarm on the Internet about illegal use of Rohypnol, > the notorious "date rape" sedative, more than a year before warnings > about the drug were issued through official channels, he said. > On the philosophy of know thy enemy, Wilsker said police also turn to > the Internet as an intelligence source, monitoring online chatter by > hate groups, drug users and others who discuss their views on computer > news groups. These news groups, though commonly thought of as private > communications, are open to public view. > The Internet also can be an effective people finder, he said. > For example, more than 90 million people and their telephone numbers > and addresses can be found at the Internet site www.switchboard.com, > making a nationwide search sometimes as simple as keying in a name, he > said. The service is free. > With an address in hand, Wilsker advises police to turn to > www.mapquest.com, which in seconds can pinpoint on a map the location > of a suspect's home. > "We use it for serving warrants where we don't know the area," he > said. [...] > Still, the response to serious attempts at online policing at times > has been disappointing. The vast majority of people prefer to deal > directly with police than go online to report a crime. Chicago's > effort to elicit information about drug dealing over the Internet has > drawn only a smattering of responses. Some departments have dropped > their most-wanted postings on the Internet because they brought in so > few tips. [...] > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Mon Aug 12 19:30:13 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:30:13 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <01I876465KRK9JD5RL@mbcl.rutgers.edu> I would wonder if a jamming device (preferably area-effect with a slowly randomly varying swathe of area, to avoid figuring out who was carrying it) would be possible, or some variety of shielding (i.e., emitting waves looking similar to flesh). -Allen > Direct Media > NEW X-RAY GUN TRADES PRIVACY FOR SAFETY > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 The Associated Press > SANTA MONICA, Calif. (Aug 12, 1996 09:47 a.m. EDT) -- The latest > weapon against terrorism can see right through you. > The Passive Millimeter Wave Imager can X-ray through clothing to "see" > a concealed weapon, plastic explosives or drugs. A police officer can > surreptitiously aim it into a crowd from as far away as 90 feet. > The new X-ray gun is becoming a symbol for an unlikely alliance of > civil libertarians and gun owners who fear the fight against crime and > terrorism may be waged at the expense of personal freedoms. > "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president > of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here > this past week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal > searches and seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from > these police abuses." > But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 > and bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade > Center, many Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy > and civil liberties for greater security. > A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of > people -- 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties > if it would help thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would > depend on what rights were at stake. The poll didn't ask people to > single out any rights. > The Clinton administration has proposed increased wiretapping and > other anti-terrorism steps, and is doling out research grants for > cutting edge anti-crime technology that once may have been intended > for only military use. [...] > Two models are being developed of the Passive Millimeter Wave Imager, > a creation of Massachusetts-based Millimetrix Corp. > The larger one, about the size of a shoebox, is mounted on a patrol > car and pointed at the unsuspecting person. The gadget doesn't send > out X-rays; instead, it picks up electromagnetic waves emitted by > human flesh. > Anything that stands in the way of those waves -- like a gun -- or > anything that emits weaker waves -- like a bag of cocaine or a plastic > explosive -- will show up on a little screen in the patrol car. > Clothes emit no waves. Neither do walls, allowing the device to be > used from even outside a room. > A second model is a smaller, battery-operated version that an officer > can operate by hand, like a radar gun. > Millimetrix hopes to field test the larger model soon at a police > agency. > Hingson argues the device runs roughshod over bans against illegal > searches and seizures. The law says police can stop and frisk a person > only when an officer has a "reasonable suspicion" the person is armed > or involved in a crime. > Millimetrix points out that while the imager can see through clothing, > it still leaves people some privacy. The device's display screen, the > company says, "does not reveal intimate anatomical details of the > person." > Chip Walker, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, noted that > devices like the imager threaten the legal rights of people in 31 > states who are allowed to carry concealed weapons with proper > licenses. > "We certainly support efforts to disarm criminals, but we need to be > careful that we're not painting with too broad a brush here," he said. > Walker said that as troubling as terrorism is, people may be playing > into terrorists' hands by giving up their privacy. > "One of the broader issues is that if we start giving up certain civil > liberties, that essentially means that the terrorists are starting to > accomplish one of their goals," he said. From David.K.Merriman at toad.com Mon Aug 12 19:32:56 1996 From: David.K.Merriman at toad.com (David.K.Merriman at toad.com) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:32:56 +0800 Subject: 1024-bit keys Message-ID: <199608121758.KAA09620@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: support at luckman.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 12 14:29:39 1996 In the documentation for Web Commander (page 7-50, item 19, top of page), under the process for getting a digital ID from VeriSign, you state: "Also, please note that you cannot send keys longer than 512 to servers outside the United States." I would like to ask for clarification on this point. Is this meant to say that a server inside the United States is not allowed to use a 512+ bit key with a client outside the U.S., or that a Web Commander server outside the U.S. may not employ a key of greater than 512 bits? In either case, what is the justification for such a statement/restriction? If a Federal regulation, could you please cite the Title and Section? Thank you. David Merriman - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMg7PWsVrTvyYOzAZAQFo3QQAn2stH5ZtI2/SGt2qEwTWyhTnp6cMA3qC hsukc3tEcvkaF75G2fdPdPkt/oyMpwU+X6jKk6kttbNNPSShrs7QtKgOoZS4FSU1 Zj+5sKrjUmluonly3JRJeZdIzWOOWGz6wd1pDBn90X9M9LzY+CBJT+yuoCWGVmh4 LJkvCJBkLrc= =b+Ui -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From frissell at panix.com Mon Aug 12 19:35:28 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:35:28 +0800 Subject: Searches Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960812200659.008927dc@panix.com> At 01:17 PM 8/9/96 -0400, Thomas C. Allard wrote: > In a landmark decision a federal court in New York has ruled >that a CBS film crew and Secret Service agents are liable for filming and >broadcasting a search of a private citizen's home. It is the first reported >court decision to hold a television broadcaster liable for accompanying >police agents on a search and filming it for the broadcast. Just because someone at your door has a warrant or a contractual right to search your place does not require you to allow anyone else in. Par example: Landlord of (A Member of This List): The fire inspectors are here and would like to inspect your apartment. (A Member of This List): They got a warrant? Landlord of (A Member of This List): No. (A Member of This List): Then they can't come in. Landlord of (A Member of This List): But I can enter the apartment with reasonable notice under the rental agreement. (A Member of This List): You're welcome. The Fire Inspectors aren't. Landlord of (A Member of This List) who allowed a search of the rest of his building was cited by the Fire Inspectors for an illegal apartment in the basement. DCF "Why is it that when I'm faced with a reasonable request from a public servant my immediate response is 'Load triple cannister'?" -- Cannister. A cylindrical metal container filled with lead shot. Designed to turn a field artillery piece into a very large shotgun. From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Mon Aug 12 20:04:15 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:04:15 +0800 Subject: Yet another blame-the-Internet-for-child-porn Message-ID: <01I876WBU7C89JD5RL@mbcl.rutgers.edu> They are, of course, failing to answer the question of why encouraging people to consume _computer-generated_ child pornography should be considered a justification for legal intervention, not to mention that such an effort would also make putting _Lolita_ on the Internet illegal (text could drive up demand for it as well, after all), or even political speech such as from NAMBLA. (It's political speech just as much as material from neo-Nazis... or from the Demopublicans.) There is also the lack of realization that someone can't be "exploited" except in the Marxist sense on the Internet... only when the material is originally made. Another point is that countries do differ on when is considered old enough for voluntary participation in making pornography - Tracy Lords material is legal in much of Europe, for instance. I'd also point to the media bias evident; they only quoted from people who were in favor of governmental regulation. Fortunately, as even one of the people at this "world congress" admitted, governmental regulation of free speech on the Internet will ultimately fail. Prevent actual harm - the _production_ of child pornography. -Allen > Centura > WORLD CONGRESS TO FIGHT INTERNET CHILD PORN > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 Reuter Information Service > STOCKHOLM (Aug 11, 1996 12:29 p.m. EDT) - Distribution of child > pornography on the Internet seems destined to top the issues at the > world's first conference against sexual exploitation of children > opening later this month in Stockholm. > Activists are trying devise ways of keeping pedophiles from peddling > such material on the global computer network, which is already used as > a billboard to advertise prostitution and sex tourism and to exchange > adult pornography. > "The Internet is like heaven for the pedophile," said Toby Tyler, a > United States police officer who lectures at the Federal Bureau of > Investigation (FBI) academy on child abuse. > "As far as our ability to restrict the distribution of child > pornography and stop the sexual exploitation of children on the > Internet...it's not something that can be done." > Campaigners are concerned that unless urgent action is taken to stamp > out the Internet's distribution of child porn, whether it features > real children or just computer generated images, it could spark > greater demand for child pornography. > Tyler said the Internet has ended the days when pedophiles had to make > costly cross-border runs to buy child pornography in countries where > laws were laxer and penalties lighter. > Now they can obtain and distribute films and photos from their own > homes on the Internet with little risk of capture. > But not everyone agrees that regulating the internet or its 20 million > users worldwide is the right move. > Some advocates say the Internet represents free speech. > Others argue that the distribution of child pornography on the > Internet is not that widespread. > Margaret Healy from Bangkok-based End Child Prostitution in Asian > Tourism (ECPAT) said in a report prepared for the five-day Stockholm > conference which opens Aug. 27 that the regulation of child > pornography on computers presents special challenges and called on > governments to fund better training. [...] > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net From zachb at netcom.com Mon Aug 12 20:11:49 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:11:49 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Newspapers and basic science (was: US Power Outages) In-Reply-To: <4uo8jp$t5o@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Well, all I remember is the 3-1/2 Seattles part - I put the"for a day" part in because I wasn't sure about it. Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 On 12 Aug 1996, Ian Goldberg wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > Watts are a measure of energy per unit time; it makes sense to say > "60 W powers a light bulb", not "60 W powers a light bulb for one hour". > > > But my _favourite_ example of this was a newspaper clipping I used to have > that said that in the previous month, the city had received "160 square > pounds of rain". That just defied common sense. > From sandfort at crl.com Mon Aug 12 20:54:18 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:54:18 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB88A7.0F5BA1C0@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Bart Croughs wrote: > My statement that the wages depend on the amount of capital > invested, has received a bad press. I thought cypherpunks were > economically literate, so I didn't explain the principle and I > didn't give any sources for further reading. This proved to be > a mistake. > To avoid this kind of uninformed criticism in the future, > I recommend my critics read the following books, which can all > be ordered from Laissez-Faire Books...yada, yada, yada. Been there, done that. I repeat, the error that Bart made is assuming that because some US-source capital gets redirected overseas, that the total amound of capital investment will decline thus producing the wage drop he is fretting about. Unless he can show that foreign capital investment will not flow to US workers who are "forced" into working in industries where they have a comparative advantage, his argument must fail. After all, I--like the economists Bart cite--think international free trade, the free flow of capital in persuit of the highest return and division of labor are a GOOD thing. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From mpd at netcom.com Mon Aug 12 21:02:30 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:02:30 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: <01I876465KRK9JD5RL@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <199608130043.RAA02224@netcom15.netcom.com> Color me skeptical. "E. ALLEN SMITH" writes: > The gadget doesn't send out X-rays; instead, it picks up > electromagnetic waves emitted by human flesh. Would these electromagnetic waves be something distinct from the blackbody spectrum of a human-sized blob of "mostly water" at the appropriate temperature? Or to put it another way, is this just a sophisticated IR imager thickly coated in snake oil and marketing hype? -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From lzkoch at mcs.net Mon Aug 12 21:17:58 1996 From: lzkoch at mcs.net (Lewis Koch) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:17:58 +0800 Subject: Snake Oil wanted Message-ID: <199608130016.TAA23180@Kitten.mcs.com> I am a journalist who has specialized in investigative reporting. I have been writing about and for the Net for about nine months, though I have about three decades as a reporter/columnist/author. There has been some discussion on this list of one story that I broke -- that of Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick's speech "National Security in the Information Age" delivered at the U.S. Air Force Academy 29 February 1996 in which she calls for the development of a "Manhattan Project" to counter computer hackers. The column and her complete speech can be found at http://upside.master.com/online/columns/cybersense/9607.html "U.S. Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick Speaks Out Against Freedom and Security on the Internet." The story was published in a monthly column Cybersense which I write for Upside Magazine's Website. I am currently interested in writing about snake oil, especially as it relates to claims about ensuring e-mail privacy, total computer security, plug-and-play effortless encryption or hype relating to computer crime -- its origins, its prevalence, its prevention. My Net audience is composed of people who perhaps pretend to more sophistication that they truly have but who I think are most interested in clarity. My areas of expertise are non-technical. Over three decades, however, I have proven record of investigative reporting. I have been fortunate to meet and rely on some very responsible people to guide me through the technical thickets -- some of whom are members of this List. Any form of response is acceptable and all confidences will be respected. Lewis Z. Koch lzkoch at mcs.net http://www.upside.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzHn8xwAAAEEANNKB31dvtigkO5ojKKBAjbrRhkTCrzg3vwhiQ0iS1Ubrxk8 HG/pMYjV4eCR3dZrekbI5/gvNPIG9yRdY8AA3THF761XWHiYZKyhQ8OHxNyjAgSA jze+joT9559kQY++xiayAGK/0sd3P9ByUT+5yy3g9bNBV+vX9vA+Q6AhQTctAAUR tA5semtvY2hAbWNzLm5ldA== =YZQ8 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From bart.croughs at tip.nl Mon Aug 12 21:25:18 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:25:18 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88AF.40553180@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Perry Metzger wrote: > Bart Croughs writes: > > But there is another axiom of economics which the > > nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of > > capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the > > amount of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the > > wages are. >I failed to note obvious counterexamples. Well known authors get giant >advances for books written with manual typewriters. Minimum wage >workers routinely operate expensive equipment. Workers doing the same >job in different places using identical equipment that cost identical >sums earn different salaries. >Clearly, wages are defined by supply and demand -- not by "capital >investment". When economists say that wages are determined by the amount of capital invested, they mean on a regional/national level, not on the level of individuals. Bart Croughs From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 12 21:39:31 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:39:31 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: At 4:46 PM 8/12/96, snow wrote: >On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Gary Howland wrote: >> Will old fashioned engines be outlawed? >> Will the "stun guns" be outlawed? >> Will susceptible electronic systems become mandatory? >> (and if so, why not just put a remote control switch in all cars?) > > One word: Pacemakers. Not just pacemakers, but also cars losing steering control (but not forward speed, obviously) and thus plow into crowds. And airbags that perhaps get triggered in all the ruckus, breaking the necks of infants (as has happened). Think of the liablility issues! Deliberately causing a car to lose control. Mon Dieu! I'm skeptical that this EM cannon will get deployed anytime soon. (And I'm not ignorant of such technologies, having attended several of the Nuclear and Space Radiation Effects Conferences. I also played around with this as a minor plot element in a novel I was working on several years ago, namely, a character killed in Los Alamos when the Electronic Engine Control circuitry of his BMW was zapped while on a mountain road. This, by the way, is a "side effect" of widely deploying such EM cannon technologies--people using them on twisty mountain roads. I can think of some places near Big Sur and around Devil's Slide where such a gizmo would produce real interesting effects!) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Aug 12 21:43:47 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:43:47 +0800 Subject: FCC_ups Message-ID: At 11:36 8/12/96, Brian D Williams wrote: > First I would like to mention Lucky that I always enjoy your >posts. Second I would like to say that as I have mentioned >previously, the RBOC I work for filed for complete unbundling of >the local loop in March of 93. We are not the one's holding up the >show. Thanks for kind words. I am happy to hear that your RBOC is so enlightened. I did not mean to exclusively blame the Baby Bells. There is plenty of blame to go around. Look at the FCC's incomprehensible decision to require that an ISDN line be billed as two lines, arguing that it requires double the upstream bandwidth. I know that I am repeating myself, but here is a brief primer on telco realities: There is plenty of upstream bandwidth, since everything but the local loop is already running on fiber. The problem is in the local loop. In many cities, there is simply no room left in the ducts to run even one more wire. Anything, such as ISDN, that can get more lines out of the same number of wires is a Good Thing to the telcos and the consumers. The alternative is trenching. An often prohibitively expensive proposal, especially in a downtown area. The FCC should encourage, not discourage the use of such wire saving technology. >10 Mb/s ethernet and 100 ISDN B channels (64k each)? I would >certainly like to here more! Unfortunately as I have also >previously pointed out, point-to-point copper is a thing of the >past, it is rare and expensive now. The current fiber-to-the-curb >standard involves "slick 96" muxes which use 4 framed T-1's (1.536 >Mb/s) to provide 96 voice channels. Given the cost of running fiber to the home, the near and intermediate future is definitely fiber to the curb. The technology we were developing works beautifully with this set-up. To be more precise, the system provides a 10Mbps Ethernet, 96 64bps ISDN B channels, a D and an M channel if using iso-Ethernet based technology. But the key to getting all this bandwidth isn't iso-Ethernet, it was our chip. This can be done at ~$600/home and for a low as $100 per node. Yes, this will increase upstream bandwidth requirements, but as I mentioned earlier, there is plenty of upstream bandwidth. Last office I worked in was facing an alley full of loading docks and trash binns. Six feet away from the door ran MFS's OC-48 SONET. There are of course exceptions. If you live in a very old building, you might have to rewire. My current apartment uses three wire cabling. I have no idea what the third wire is good for. You can't run two POTS over three wires. In a building like this you'd have to rewire. But few office buildings are likely to have such lousy wiring. Anyway, I hate to be a tease, but that's about as far as my NDA will let me go. [Any further dialog in private email, please. Time to take this tread off-list.] -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 12 21:43:55 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:43:55 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Newspapers and basic science (was: US Power Outages) Message-ID: At 11:53 PM 8/12/96, Z.B. wrote: >Well, all I remember is the 3-1/2 Seattles part - I put the"for a day" >part in because I wasn't sure about it. > Well, by putting in that "for a day" line, you made the news folk seem even more ignorant than they actually may be! It was the "for a day" that made the quote seem so stupid, as Ian's point below makes clear. (I had read this stupid quote and just deleted the message, rather than get into the difference between power and the integral of power.) In the future, you might try leaving quotes alone, without improvements. (One way is to add comments such as "[for a day?]", which readers can then accept or reject as they wish.) --Tim >On 12 Aug 1996, Ian Goldberg wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> >> >> Watts are a measure of energy per unit time; it makes sense to say >> "60 W powers a light bulb", not "60 W powers a light bulb for one hour". >> Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From bart.croughs at tip.nl Mon Aug 12 21:47:04 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:47:04 +0800 Subject: AW: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88AF.3C1CDF00@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Timothy C. May wrote: >At 10:31 PM 8/11/96, Bart Croughs wrote: >> But there is another axiom of economics which the >>nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of >>capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the amount >>of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the wages are. >>If American >I agree strongly. In my Econ 101 class, lo those many years ago, I was >constantly reminded to "Remember the Croughs Axiom!" I would be proud if I had discovered this axiom, but alas, I haven't. It's an axiom that is generally accepted among austrian economists (Rothbard, Hazlitt, etc). I don't know who actually discovered it. >It is why MacDonald's workers, who work at a company which has invested >truly vast sums of money in the capital of its outlets, pays its workers so >much more than do the legal firms, advertising firms, etc., which have >invested almost nothing in the capital of their facilities. When economists say that wages depend on the amount of capital invested, they mean on a regional/national level, not on the level of individuals. Back to class! Bart Croughs From bart.croughs at tip.nl Mon Aug 12 21:54:06 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:54:06 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88B2.33BB74E0@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Arun Mehta wrote: >Indeed. Bart makes a very remarkable assumption, which is that the total >amount of capital in the fastest growing industry in human history is constant. I didn't make this assumption. When I say that when capital leaves the US, the amount of capital in the US will be lower, I mean that the amount of capital will be lower than it otherwise would have been. It will be *relatively* lower, and so the wages in the US will be *relatively* lower than when when the capital wouldn't have left the US. Of course, absolutely speaking the wages could still become higher. I thought this was so obvious that I didn't make this explicit. Bart Croughs From sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si Mon Aug 12 22:09:41 1996 From: sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si (sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:09:41 +0800 Subject: Anguilla story... Message-ID: <009A6C3F.D8665B7E.21@uni-lj.si> Can someone please tell me the origin of this whole Anguilla story that's been going around a lot for the past few days... I just got onto the list two days ago, and I didn't catch the beginning of it... thanks, rok From gelona at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 12 22:28:21 1996 From: gelona at worldnet.att.net (gelona) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:28:21 +0800 Subject: test-1 Message-ID: <320FD48A.6A9E@worldnet.att.net> from:gelona at worldnet.net.att To:cypherpunks at toad.com :: Request~Remailing to :BuzzRBee at juno.com Test-1 , done at 9.03 From 76702.3557 at compuserve.com Mon Aug 12 22:43:45 1996 From: 76702.3557 at compuserve.com (David Kennedy) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:43:45 +0800 Subject: Hoax: A ban on cryptography? Message-ID: <960813023753_76702.3557_CHN38-4@CompuServe.COM> My mailer thinks the e$pam list pulled this from cypherpunks: >> S.1666 Department of Commerce Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997 (Passed by the Senate) << And this is bogus, and as far as I can tell not a typo, it's complete hokum. S.1666 is an obscure bill about courts in Utah. A search of http://thomas.loc.gov on "encryption" reveals the expected bills, PRO-CODE etc. A search for the DoC Authorization Act reveals nothing, as far as I can tell this bill has not been drafted let alone passed. I don't know enough about how the DoC is funded to know if they get their own Authorization Act or receive authorizations piecemeal and by the reconciliation. Again, this is bogus. !^NavFont02F02350014QGHHG|MG~HG85QG87HI}2126 From nobody at replay.com Mon Aug 12 22:43:50 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:43:50 +0800 Subject: cybergangs Message-ID: <199608130215.EAA20375@basement.replay.com> Dimitri Vulis ranted thusly into the aether: >Death to the Usenet Cabal! All power to the GruborBots! Jeez, is there no place safe from Dimitri's Cabal rantings? There Is No Cabal fnord. So there. ObCypherpunks: It's worth noting that Dimitri's reputation capital is so devalued on Usenet that his vote wasn't accepted in the recent soc.religion.paganism CFV: dlv at bwalk.dm.com Dr. Dimitri Vulis ! Vote rejected by votetaker (untrusted site) This is from Message-ID: <839564931.8926 at uunet.uu.net>, btw. From fair at cesium.clock.org Mon Aug 12 22:50:22 1996 From: fair at cesium.clock.org (Erik E. Fair (Time Keeper)) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:50:22 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: I wonder how well the imager works through mylar or gold lame' clothing (or other high-metal content clothing)? curious, Erik From proff at suburbia.net Mon Aug 12 23:04:42 1996 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:04:42 +0800 Subject: Yet another blame-the-Internet-for-child-porn In-Reply-To: <01I876WBU7C89JD5RL@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <199608130140.LAA20673@suburbia.net> > They are, of course, failing to answer the question of why encouraging > people to consume _computer-generated_ child pornography should be considered > a justification for legal intervention, not to mention that such an effort > would also make putting _Lolita_ on the Internet illegal (text could drive > up demand for it as well, after all), or even political speech such as from > NAMBLA. (It's political speech just as much as material from neo-Nazis... or > from the Demopublicans.) I don't see what the FBI is complaining about. Child pornography traded on the net makes produces of child pornography incredibly easy to locate. The child porn peddlers and consumers caught on the network are usually soft, chewy and coperative, responding well to all manner of threats and inducements. Further the piracy in child pornography tends to create a buyers market, drives prices down substantially, reducing the incentive to produce original material at all. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff at suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From schryver at radiks.net Mon Aug 12 23:22:01 1996 From: schryver at radiks.net (Scott Schryvers) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:22:01 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <199608130242.VAA11177@sr.radiks.net> At 06:56 PM 8/12/96 EDT, you wrote: Since metal blocks the waves and stands out on the screen one could affectively block its use by putting up a fine metal mesh on the interior of all walls that are exterior to the house. The same could be said for clothing that looks normal but has a metal mesh liner, like say a trench coat. > I would wonder if a jamming device (preferably area-effect with a >slowly randomly varying swathe of area, to avoid figuring out who was carrying >it) would be possible, or some variety of shielding (i.e., emitting waves >looking similar to flesh). > -Allen > >> Direct Media >> NEW X-RAY GUN TRADES PRIVACY FOR SAFETY >> Copyright © 1996 Nando.net >> Copyright © 1996 The Associated Press > >> SANTA MONICA, Calif. (Aug 12, 1996 09:47 a.m. EDT) -- The latest >> weapon against terrorism can see right through you. > >> The Passive Millimeter Wave Imager can X-ray through clothing to "see" >> a concealed weapon, plastic explosives or drugs. A police officer can >> surreptitiously aim it into a crowd from as far away as 90 feet. > >> The new X-ray gun is becoming a symbol for an unlikely alliance of >> civil libertarians and gun owners who fear the fight against crime and >> terrorism may be waged at the expense of personal freedoms. > >> "I'm incredibly concerned," said John Henry Hingson, a past president >> of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, meeting here >> this past week. "The entire nation could become a victim of illegal >> searches and seizures and the law is powerless to protect them from >> these police abuses." > >> But in these nervous times following the the crash of TWA Fight 800 >> and bombings at the Olympics, Oklahoma City and the World Trade >> Center, many Americans are now willing to trade some of their privacy >> and civil liberties for greater security. > >> A poll last week by the Los Angeles Times found that a majority of >> people -- 58 percent -- said they would curtail some civil liberties >> if it would help thwart terrorism. Thirteen percent said it would >> depend on what rights were at stake. The poll didn't ask people to >> single out any rights. > >> The Clinton administration has proposed increased wiretapping and >> other anti-terrorism steps, and is doling out research grants for >> cutting edge anti-crime technology that once may have been intended >> for only military use. > >[...] > >> Two models are being developed of the Passive Millimeter Wave Imager, >> a creation of Massachusetts-based Millimetrix Corp. > >> The larger one, about the size of a shoebox, is mounted on a patrol >> car and pointed at the unsuspecting person. The gadget doesn't send >> out X-rays; instead, it picks up electromagnetic waves emitted by >> human flesh. > >> Anything that stands in the way of those waves -- like a gun -- or >> anything that emits weaker waves -- like a bag of cocaine or a plastic >> explosive -- will show up on a little screen in the patrol car. > >> Clothes emit no waves. Neither do walls, allowing the device to be >> used from even outside a room. > >> A second model is a smaller, battery-operated version that an officer >> can operate by hand, like a radar gun. > >> Millimetrix hopes to field test the larger model soon at a police >> agency. > >> Hingson argues the device runs roughshod over bans against illegal >> searches and seizures. The law says police can stop and frisk a person >> only when an officer has a "reasonable suspicion" the person is armed >> or involved in a crime. > >> Millimetrix points out that while the imager can see through clothing, >> it still leaves people some privacy. The device's display screen, the >> company says, "does not reveal intimate anatomical details of the >> person." > >> Chip Walker, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, noted that >> devices like the imager threaten the legal rights of people in 31 >> states who are allowed to carry concealed weapons with proper >> licenses. > >> "We certainly support efforts to disarm criminals, but we need to be >> careful that we're not painting with too broad a brush here," he said. > >> Walker said that as troubling as terrorism is, people may be playing >> into terrorists' hands by giving up their privacy. > >> "One of the broader issues is that if we start giving up certain civil >> liberties, that essentially means that the terrorists are starting to >> accomplish one of their goals," he said. > PGP encrypted mail preferred. E-Mail me for my key. Scott J. Schryvers From weld at l0pht.com Mon Aug 12 23:26:53 1996 From: weld at l0pht.com (Weld Pond) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:26:53 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun for imperceptible searches Message-ID: This thing sounds like it could be easily defeated by sewing some "space blanket" material on the inside of coats, etc. Maybe jackets that show up false positives with gun shaped cutouts will become fashionable with the already harrassed inner-city set. Weld Pond - weld at l0pht.com - http://www.l0pht.com/~weld L 0 p h t H e a v y I n d u s t r i e s Technical archives for the people - Bio/Electro/Crypto/Radio From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 12 23:32:40 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:32:40 +0800 Subject: Article on Electronic Commerce with a few too many In-Reply-To: <199608122000.NAA19713@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: jim bell writes: > I too find this concept offensive, at least to the extent that it is kept a > secret from the marketplace. Even so, as a libertarian and free-market > capitalist, I certainly see nothing wrong with "allowing such behavior," and > indeed I'd see something wrong with NOT "allowing" it. Nevertheless, to > the extent it occurs it should be well understood and identified for what it > is. This reminds me of the recent revelation how a major disposable lens maker was marketing three lines of lenses: cheap ones, good for a few days; medium ones, good for a week; very expensive ones, good for a month. You guessed it - the lenses inside the packaging were identical. (I find that most self-described "libertarians" are actually fucking statists.) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From bdolan at use.usit.net Mon Aug 12 23:39:36 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:39:36 +0800 Subject: US Power Outages In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960812211716.00893f04@panix.com> Message-ID: Portland General Electric shut down a big, perfectly good nuke a couple of years ago since there was ample cheap power to replace it. So they said. bd On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote: > At 10:15 AM 8/12/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: > >This morning, I read the new claim: extreme heat (presumably assisted by > >heat dissipated in the power line itself) cause the power cables near The > >Dalles (about 100 miles east of Portland, along the Columbia river) to > >stretch and sag, eventually shorting themselves out to trees near the ground. > > The real cause was inadequate supply of nuclear power plants caused by > technophobe agitation. > > DCF > > From perry at piermont.com Mon Aug 12 23:50:26 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:50:26 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB88AF.40553180@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: <199608130329.XAA17152@jekyll.piermont.com> Bart Croughs writes: > >Clearly, wages are defined by supply and demand -- not by "capital > >investment". > > When economists say that wages are determined by the amount of capital > invested, they mean on a regional/national level, not on the level of > individuals. So, you are saying that if everyone in the country spent their life savings on building giant green pylons, the capital investment would drive up everyone's wages? Wow! In fact, we could borrow money from other countries to build more green pylons and drive up wages so fast we could pay off the resultant debt! Perry (PS Please stop posting these things -- you may kill everyone watching with laughter.) From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 13 00:02:16 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:02:16 +0800 Subject: Article on Electronic Commerce with a few too many Message-ID: <199608130312.UAA15239@mail.pacifier.com> At 08:19 PM 8/12/96 EDT, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >jim bell writes: >> I too find this concept offensive, at least to the extent that it is kept a >> secret from the marketplace. Even so, as a libertarian and free-market >> capitalist, I certainly see nothing wrong with "allowing such behavior," and >> indeed I'd see something wrong with NOT "allowing" it. Nevertheless, to >> the extent it occurs it should be well understood and identified for what it >> is. > >This reminds me of the recent revelation how a major disposable lens maker >was marketing three lines of lenses: cheap ones, good for a few days; >medium ones, good for a week; very expensive ones, good for a month. >You guessed it - the lenses inside the packaging were identical. > >(I find that most self-described "libertarians" are actually fucking statists.) I don't see how that last statement follows anything that went before. I made it explicitly clear that companies have a right to market in such ways; I also have a right to dislike those methods. As for other libertarians, I don't see that they're appreciably different. So where did that last comment come from? BTW, your KOTM credential is outdated...are you trying to have it renewed? Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From sophi at best.com Tue Aug 13 00:05:02 1996 From: sophi at best.com (Greg Kucharo) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:05:02 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exaggerated Message-ID: <199608130417.VAA01967@dns2.noc.best.net> In the Swiss system, who dictates to the banks thier policies about who and what they can store? Do the banks have enough influence to sway lawmakers? It seems to me that the issue is not illegality, but rather if the depositor is a viable political entity with "something on the other guy". When the Nazis or Columbian drug dealers are still in power, the Swiss look the other way. As soon as these types fall to other forces, the Swiss hand over the goods to the victors. I think if you were to sucessfully store information that a large power finds personally objectionable, the best solution is to play both sides. Scenario; The U.S. leans on the Anguilla authorities to close down Vince. Vince goes to the British consulate and negotiates for the depositing of some nasty information about the Queen or something. The British lean on the Americans to lay off. A little far feteched but you get the idea. And it would work in the majority of situations. I bet money stashed by Hitler and Goebbels got confiscated after World War II. But Gerhard Whelen got his loot when he linked up with the CIA. ??????????????????????????????????????? Greg Kucharo sophi at best.com "People want chaos for about 5 minutes. Then they want some money and a backrub." -Bruce Sterling ??????????????????????????????????????? From perry at piermont.com Tue Aug 13 00:05:24 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:05:24 +0800 Subject: AW: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB88AF.3C1CDF00@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: <199608130335.XAA17171@jekyll.piermont.com> Bart Croughs writes: > I would be proud if I had discovered this axiom, but alas, I haven't. > It's an axiom that is generally accepted among austrian economists > (Rothbard, Hazlitt, etc). I don't know who actually discovered it. The truly hysterical part is that Tim and I are both (from what I can tell) Austrians. Perry From alano at teleport.com Tue Aug 13 00:07:30 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:07:30 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960813034347.00ab6534@mail.teleport.com> At 10:36 PM 8/12/96 -0400, Weld Pond wrote: >This thing sounds like it could be easily defeated by sewing some "space >blanket" material on the inside of coats, etc. You could probibly build little clip on active jammers. (With published specs to the "Evil Internet(tm)".) Such intrusive methods should be pretty easy to screw up with proper detail on their operation. (I expect the 2600 crowd will have jammer kits available soon. And working ones a few months after that...) >Maybe jackets that >show up false positives with gun shaped cutouts will become >fashionable with the already harrassed inner-city set. I want one that will make me show up as a multi-tentacled alien horror from beyond space and time. Why make them wig out and shoot you when you can really mess with their minds...? --- |"Computers are Voodoo -- You just have to know where to stick the pins."| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 13 00:15:51 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:15:51 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: <199608130343.UAA16999@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:54 AM 8/12/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >(And I'm not ignorant of such technologies, having attended several of the >Nuclear and Space Radiation Effects Conferences. I also played around with >this as a minor plot element in a novel I was working on several years ago, >namely, a character killed in Los Alamos when the Electronic Engine Control >circuitry of his BMW was zapped while on a mountain road. This, by the way, >is a "side effect" of widely deploying such EM cannon technologies--people >using them on twisty mountain roads. I can think of some places near Big >Sur and around Devil's Slide where such a gizmo would produce real >interesting effects!) Why would you need an "EM Cannon" for this? Just string a 1-car-sized loop of wire on the surface of a road, and off in the bushes hide a battery, DC-to-Hi voltage DC converter and 20kv+ capacitor, and a vacuum switch or some other switch arrangement. When the car in question traverses the loop, short the switch and the car will be blasted with 20,000 volt-turns of induction. Sure, most of it will pass harmlessly through the car's steel, but even iron has a limited "mu" which means that every electrical device in the car will be subjected to a certain amount of induced EMF, probably enough to at least reset a few microprocessors and possibly even destroy them. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 00:16:16 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:16:16 +0800 Subject: Hoax: A ban on cryptography? Message-ID: At 2:37 AM 8/13/96, David Kennedy wrote: >My mailer thinks the e$pam list pulled this from cypherpunks: > And I'll bet you're still looking for "Oceania" in your atlas? This is one of the main reasons I hate it when my articles get "spammed" to other lists, lists where people have no idea of who I am and no idea of my sense of humor. For the clueless, I simply took the "Defense Authorization" bill which had been posted to Cypherpunks by geeman at best.com and replaced a few of the words involving "explosives" with "cryptography." Oh, and I twiddled the number of the bill to include "666." Finally, I even said "This may not be real, but it could be" at the end. Jeesh. The worst part of having my stuff spammed, e-spammed, gurgitated, and regurgitated is that I get letters from people saying "I saw this thing you wrote on the Kangaroo Hopping List. What is "crypto"? Thanks a bunch, dude." Wake up. And for those who forward my stuff, please include appropriate disclaimers to your "spammees" that a) one should read things with an appreciation that a post may be tongue in cheek, b) that back-spamming to another list is not cool, and c) that I don't want to be bothered. >>> S.1666 > > Department of Commerce Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997 (Passed by the > Senate) << > >And this is bogus, and as far as I can tell not a typo, it's complete hokum. > >S.1666 is an obscure bill about courts in Utah. > >A search of http://thomas.loc.gov on "encryption" reveals the expected bills, >PRO-CODE etc. > >A search for the DoC Authorization Act reveals nothing, as far as I can tell >this bill has not been drafted let alone passed. I don't know enough about how >the DoC is funded to know if they get their own Authorization Act or receive >authorizations piecemeal and by the reconciliation. > >Again, this is bogus. > >!^NavFont02F02350014QGHHG|MG~HG85QG87HI}2126 Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From perry at piermont.com Tue Aug 13 00:20:52 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:20:52 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB88A7.14E3A5C0@groningen04.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: <199608130106.VAA16957@jekyll.piermont.com> Bart Croughs writes: > Perry Metzger wrote: > > >Bart Croughs writes: > >> But there is another axiom of economics which the > >>nationalist/socialist can use for his case against the free movement of > >> capital. This axiom states that the wages of workers depend on the > >> amount of capital invested. The more capital invested, the higher the > >> wages are. > > >This must be some new axiom of economics that I had not heard of. > > It's not a sin to be ignorant, but to boast about it... I recommend > you read the great libertarian /austrian economists: Murray > Rothbard, Henry Hazlitt, etc. Perhaps I should start being more vicious when I'm using sarcasm. Nowhere in the writings of any Austrian economist will you find anything claiming that the wages for a given job are linked to capital investment by the employer. Perry From alano at teleport.com Tue Aug 13 00:22:56 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:22:56 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960813035436.00b058b4@mail.teleport.com> At 06:42 PM 8/12/96 -0700, Time Keeper wrote: >I wonder how well the imager works through mylar or gold lame' clothing (or >other high-metal content clothing)? You will be required to escrow such clothing with the proper government authorities. Inspections will be done by the Bureau of cocktails, discos, and munitions according to strict rules set down by President Clinton, with advisement from Former Sen. Bob Packwood. Actually they will just use harder radiation in those cases. The higher cases of radiation burns and sickness will be offset by the gains in perceived public safety. "Eyes melt. Skin explodes. Everybody dead!" - An unnamed source at the FBI. --- |"Computers are Voodoo -- You just have to know where to stick the pins."| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From root at hellspawn.Berkeley.EDU Tue Aug 13 00:48:07 1996 From: root at hellspawn.Berkeley.EDU (Damien Lucifer) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:48:07 +0800 Subject: Spam and Eggs. (fwd) Message-ID: I put together a few pages regarding remailers and net spamming. Nathan Waddoups hosts a well written site dealing with the larger issue of netspam, and has graciously agreed to host the remailer pages. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Nate Waddoups Subject: Re: Spam and Eggs. I just finished adding your page. You're linked from the main spam page: http://www.metareality.com/~nathan/visit.cgi/html.Spam ...and your page is at this address: http://www.metareality.com/~nathan/visit.cgi/spam/html.Remail Groovy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- see http://www.metareality.com/~nathan for more of the same Help stop junk email! http://www.metareality.com/~nathan/visit.cgi/html.Spam From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 13 00:53:53 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:53:53 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <199608130312.UAA15244@mail.pacifier.com> At 05:43 PM 8/12/96 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote: >Color me skeptical. > >"E. ALLEN SMITH" writes: > > > The gadget doesn't send out X-rays; instead, it picks up > > electromagnetic waves emitted by human flesh. > >Would these electromagnetic waves be something distinct from the >blackbody spectrum of a human-sized blob of "mostly water" at the >appropriate temperature? > >Or to put it another way, is this just a sophisticated IR imager >thickly coated in snake oil and marketing hype? That depends on what you mean by "IR." Near-IR is about 300 Terahertz; I've seen some items in electronic magazines recently concerning systems that emit and receive around 1 terahertz. Apparently, they can read writing in envelopes, etc. It isn't clear whether this particular system is more like a thermal IR system, or one of those newer ones. Chances are good that when such a system is produced, it will be produced WITHOUT any kind of recording system that must be installed. The problem is, this leaves it open to interpretation as to what a cop saw, and judges and juries tend to be too deferential to cops who "are trying to protect us." All a cop has to do is to claim he saw a gun, or drugs, or practically anthing else, and suddenly he has probable cause where he wouldn't have had it before. Yet more abuse with no obvious benefit. All the more reason to adopt an AP-type system: The so-called "justice system" rarely punishes its own; if we are to have a realistic deterrent, the only way to do it is to let outsiders deal with abuse. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 01:01:54 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:01:54 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: At 4:43 AM 8/13/96, jim bell wrote: >At 09:54 AM 8/12/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >> >>(And I'm not ignorant of such technologies, having attended several of the >>Nuclear and Space Radiation Effects Conferences. I also played around with >Why would you need an "EM Cannon" for this? Just string a 1-car-sized loop >of wire on the surface of a road, and off in the bushes hide a battery, >DC-to-Hi voltage DC converter and 20kv+ capacitor, and a vacuum switch or >some other switch arrangement. When the car in question traverses the loop, >short the switch and the car will be blasted with 20,000 volt-turns of >induction. Sure, most of it will pass harmlessly through the car's steel, >but even iron has a limited "mu" which means that every electrical device in >the car will be subjected to a certain amount of induced EMF, probably >enough to at least reset a few microprocessors and possibly even destroy them. Well, we're all operating based on speculation, as to intended modes of operation, what the contracts may ask for, what may eventually get delivered, etc. Certainly the described mode, that of a police car _pursuing_ another car, suggests a car-launched signal. Rewiring the nation's roads to include buried cables in anticipation of a future use would be pretty expensive! (And if the cops can plan for a suspect/fleeing car to pass a specific location, low-tech solutions like laying a row of caltrops across the road will do much the same thing as "zapping" (which may not even work.)) As to high-voltage zapping, on this I am _extremely_ skeptical, at least as Jim's proposal above goes. Modern chips are equipped to deal with high-voltage, having electrostatic discharge (ESD) provisions. Voltages a lot higher than 20kv. And getting this hv signal in to the interior of the engine compartment, and past the various thermal and other shields would be a chore. Certainly the rubber tires will provide an _awful_ lot of insulation! No signal at the road level is going to get through the tires, at least not until the dielectric breakdown of several inches of rubber and air is achieved! (And even then, what is the current path? Where does the current coming up from the road surface go? Even lightning strikes, from above, where the place for the current to flow is clearly down into the ground, have virtually no effect on cars and especially not on the insides of cars.) If cars routinely survive lightning strikes, involving hundreds of thousands of of volts and fairly substantial currents, then I can't imagine anything humans can plausibly do along the same lines having any effect. I won't debate this further, though. I don't know just what the DARPA (or whomever) contract is asking for. Maybe something can be built, maybe not. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Aug 13 01:23:54 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:23:54 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6VZksD12w165w@bwalk.dm.com> "Erik E. Fair" (Time Keeper) writes: > I wonder how well the imager works through mylar or gold lame' clothing (or > other high-metal content clothing)? Have you ever wondered why Tim May wears a protective layer of aluminum foil on his head? (And lead foil wrapped around his balls.) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From sryan at reading.com Tue Aug 13 01:59:19 1996 From: sryan at reading.com (steven ryan) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:59:19 +0800 Subject: NT Remailers Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960813034344.00308bf0@reading.com> Hi, Would anyone be so kind as to point me to any information on running a remailer on Windows NT and the address for the remailer-owners mailing list? A search of the places I expected might have this information didn't Thanks, Steven ------------------------------------ Steven Ryan Reading Access PGP Fingerprint: E8 A2 C5 A2 7A C4 77 93 0A 1B 1D C6 B9 2F 36 9B Finger me for my PGP public key sryan at reading.com From bart.croughs at tip.nl Tue Aug 13 02:00:01 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:00:01 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88ED.98A382E0@groningen16.pop.tip.nl> Sandy Sandfort wrote: >Been there, done that. I repeat, the error that Bart made is >assuming that because some US-source capital gets redirected >overseas, that the total amound of capital investment will >decline thus producing the wage drop he is fretting about. >Unless he can show that foreign capital investment will not flow >to US workers who are "forced" into working in industries where >they have a comparative advantage, his argument must fail. After >all, I--like the economists Bart cite--think international free >trade, the free flow of capital in persuit of the highest return >and division of labor are a GOOD thing. I also belief that international free trade, the free flow of capital in pursuit of the highest return and the division of labor are a GOOD thing. But in specific cases, I want to know the specific reasons. You claim that I must show that foreign capital investment will not flow back to US workers. But in my original post, I said: "Of course there are advantages also for the US (shareholders will get higher returns, trade will increase), but how can you proof that these advantages will offset the disadvantage of the lowered amount of capital in the US? " You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the U.S. is worse off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how can you proof that the US isn't worse off when US capital moves abroad? If you don't know the answer, there's nothing to be ashamed of. I don't know the answer either. That's why I asked my question, in the hope that somebody could provide the answer, so that in the future I would be able to rebut arguments against the free movement of capital. Another thing: I don't assume that the *total amount* of capital will be lowered in the US when US capital moves abroad. I assume that the amount of capital in the US will be *relatively lower*. So the wages will be *relatively* lower (lower than when the capital wouldn't have left the US), but not necessarily lower in any absolute sense. I thought this was obvious, but since Arun Mehta also misunderstood me, maybe I should have been more explicit here. Bart Croughs From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 13 02:03:52 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:03:52 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: <01I876465KRK9JD5RL@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: CCW holders don't have a legal right to conceal their possession of weapon, from the police. I believe that use of this device would be unconstitutional in a jurisdiction which doesn't license concealed carry - to wit, Vermont ONLY. If you are a licensee, you exercise your privilege at the pleasure of the Sovereign. From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 02:25:09 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:25:09 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: At 3:12 AM 8/13/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >CCW holders don't have a legal right to conceal their possession of >weapon, from the police. > I think the earlier remark was oriented toward "not scaring the horses" rather than making a serious attempt to hide the presence of a gun from a duly-authorized search. People who carry concealed are _strongly_ encouraged to keep the fact of their concealed carry hidden. No "careless" displays in bars, for example. And no announcement to casual bystanders, and even to store security guards. The reason for this is simple: to avoid panic and overreaction ("He's got a gun!!") and also to avoid having a concealed weapon used in a brandishing situation to intimidate others. Seen this way, the widespread deployment of metal detectors, millimeter wave detectors, and other such gadgets would force major changes in CCW laws. Aside from the Constitutional issues, which are major. I don't see how "remote scanning" of the population at large, without probable cause, is much different from the cops listening in from a distance with parabolic antennas. Both cases involve detection of signals emitted from the target. And yet such long-distance interception is not allowed without a warrant. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 02:44:21 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:44:21 +0800 Subject: AW: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: At 3:35 AM 8/13/96, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >Bart Croughs writes: >> I would be proud if I had discovered this axiom, but alas, I haven't. >> It's an axiom that is generally accepted among austrian economists >> (Rothbard, Hazlitt, etc). I don't know who actually discovered it. > >The truly hysterical part is that Tim and I are both (from what I can >tell) Austrians. Indeed. While Perry and I disagree on some things, the relevance of the Austrian School of Economics, and its University of Chicago satellite campus, is not one of them. If Croughs stays on this list long enough, he will surely see this. (And find plenty of references to Hayek, Menger, Friedman, etc., in the archives.) The problem with the "Croughs Axiom" is not that there is not a _general_ correlation between average national wages and average national capital investment--there is. A scatter plot of wages vs. capital investment for the 200 or so nations would almost certainly show that the Ivory Coast has low per capita wages and low per capita wages, Sweden has both higher wages and higher capital investment per capita, and so on. Correlation, of course, is not causation. No, the problem was that Croughs invoked this general _correlation_ (which can arise for various reasons) to support his mercantilist protectionist ideas. (He also didn't say he was talking of nations, which is why some of us found the examples we did, e.g., MacDonald's vs. law firms, which have the opposite correlation he described.) And the cloud of ideas connected with somehow forcing capital investment to remain in the U.S....well, the best way to do this is to alter the tax laws so that America (for example) becomes a magnet for investment. (If one is looking to help America, that is.) In any case, the original notion, of somehow using cryptography policy to support U.S. interests....well, I rather doubt that Menger, Von Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, or any of the others connected with the Austrian School would buy Crough's protectionist arguments. And I certainly know that jingoistic appeals to "America First!" are inconsistent with the sentiments of many or even most on this list. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From JonWienk at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 13 03:13:30 1996 From: JonWienk at ix.netcom.com (JonWienk at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:13:30 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960811231209.3c677258@arc.unm.edu> Message-ID: <199608130335.UAA03631@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> At 08.23 AM 8/9/96 -0700, i am not a number! wrote: >O, and I think they're talking more about putting up cameras at some >troubling intersections to take pictures of cars running red-lights. http://www.panix.com/~sshah/ss-nyred.htm gives a detailed listing of New York City intersections where this is already being done. http://www.eng.uci.edu/vtm/freeway.html describes the techniques used to monitor traffic speeds, etc. with a camera. Includes several pictorial examples. http://www.azfms.com/faq.html (Arizona DOT) gives some interesting (but suspect) info about freeway / camera interaction, as well as a bunch of traffic webcams and links to similar sites. The claim is made that license plates can only be read by the camera when a vehicle is stopped... http://www.best.com/%7Elspencer/geoch/ is a page hawking remote sensor devices (Butt-Sniffers) for identifying "gross polluter' vehicles. These same sensors are being deployed on California freeways in the Bay Area, and owners of "gross polluting" vehicles receive citations in the mail. The page includes details on the advantages of large companies using Butt-Sniffers on their employees' vehicles. "By finding gross polluting employee vehicles via remote sensing, and selectively repairing or scrapping them, the employer can gain AVR compliance." A great example of the (not-so) subtle arm-twisting CARB is doing to implement Smog Check II... http://www.primenet.com/~rstbear/biffl.html Biff the Bear's Potty Cam! A great place for car-grabbing (and most other) bureaucrats to go. Jonathan Wienke "Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenarios, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government." --Henry Kissinger in an address to the Bilderberg organization meeting at Evian, France, May 21, 1992. Transcribed from a tape recording made by one of the Swiss delegates. "A conservative is a liberal who got mugged last night." --Lee Rodgers Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB From maverick at interconnect.net Tue Aug 13 03:42:18 1996 From: maverick at interconnect.net (Sean Sutherland) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:42:18 +0800 Subject: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <19960813073339140.AAA83@maverick> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 13 02:29:17 1996 Whatever happened to that free offer for ProntoSecure for members of the Cpunk list? Remembered hearing something about it awhile back, but I don't know exactly what it is. Thanks. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Key: finger or email w/ 'send key' in subj. http://www2.interconnect.net/maverick iQEVAwUBMhAu3lZoKRrkPmSJAQFw1gf9GjVSbvqDnneHDc4YDE1z+L3A+ZB6GtS+ kN9kKloqQ4oKb8lzHhJoBrs0+BqaRf1+6bwPul6Eh6vf9FJ9VmifVBdC1oFcfVLZ gqj++PfukYvTh5bZIEvzx6OMhm9V9AXM7ne8ySrDD0FfkDSI+PYC/ONsqmhej4wR V4lfSyFm9dPCuvdD/C5YlIAhWD2BO0xUKpJjM6LtTmU+AHMC6qyjKvSv85HfIk2v 4cpHBY97iOmUQL/526D2ql0eQsZymg8ntN8Q6fXZ8AJt79zwfT3GeDG5fPg4iDEs 70LVtbqY73SqBpdRdYcTOJzrwPLJ2fLQrqgDjw+xO+kyogu70XdI5w== =XlrN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bart.croughs at tip.nl Tue Aug 13 04:40:56 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 19:40:56 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88FA.3EEDE440@groningen16.pop.tip.nl> Perry Metzger wrote: >Bart Croughs writes: >> I would be proud if I had discovered this axiom, but alas, I haven't. >> It's an axiom that is generally accepted among austrian >>economists >>(Rothbard, Hazlitt, etc). I don't know who actually discovered it. >The truly hysterical part is that Tim and I are both (from what I can >tell) Austrians. >Perry Well, if you are an Austrian, then maybe you should study the Austrians a bit more and write a bit less about them. In several posts I gave quotes from famous Austrian economists that support my statement that according to Austrian economists wages depend on the amount of capital invested. And all that you answer to this is that you're an Austrian yourself. What do you expect me to say? "Well, Austrian economists like Murray Rothbard and Henry Hazlitt think that wages depend on the amount of capital invested, but Perry Metzger disagrees and says he is an Austrian himself, so we can't conclude that according to Austrian economists wages depend on the level of capital invested?" For the moment, I think it's more reasonable to conclude that you don't understand the Austrians. But of course you can try to attack the arguments of the Austrian economists, and convince them that they are wrong and that they ought to adopt your point of view. Bart Croughs From poodge at econ.Berkeley.EDU Tue Aug 13 04:45:55 1996 From: poodge at econ.Berkeley.EDU (Sam Quigley) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 19:45:55 +0800 Subject: non-secure network utilities - pointers? Message-ID: What cypherpunk-approved (tm) -- that is, cryptographically strong, freely available, and well-implemented (reliable) -- network utilities are available? I'm willing to agree to US-only license agreement iff I have to... I'm looking for secure telnet, ftp, talk, etc. that I can run over a potentially insecure network (and their respective daemons). Is SSL the way to go? (If so, what's the best implementation?) What about other protocols? Is there some comprehensive {web,ftp}site where I can find more information on this subject? Please reply off-list to poodge at econ.berkeley.edu thanks, -sq From bart.croughs at tip.nl Tue Aug 13 04:47:21 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 19:47:21 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88FA.25D2E3C0@groningen16.pop.tip.nl> Perry Metzger wrote: >Perhaps I should start being more vicious when I'm using sarcasm. >Nowhere in the writings of any Austrian economist will you find >anything >claiming that the wages for a given job are linked to capital >investment by the employer. I already gave some quotes of Austrian economists in another post, but maybe you didn't read it, so here I go again: Henry Hazlitt in 'economics in one lesson' (p. 139): "The best way to raise wages, therefore, is to raise marginal labor productivity. This can be done by many methods: by an increase in capital accumulation - i.e. by an increase in the machines with which the workers are aided..." Murray Rothbard in 'the free market reader' (p. 31): "Wage rates are low in many foreign countries because capital equipment is small and technologically primitive. Unaided by much capital, worker productivity is far lower than in the United States." Lew Rockwell in 'the economics of liberty' (p. 26): "Wages are determined by the productivity of the individual laborer, which in turn is largely determined by the amount of capital invested per worker." I could go on, but I think this will suffice. As I already said in two of my other posts on this subject, when Austrian economists say that wages depend on the amount of capital invested, they mean on a regional/national level, not on the level of individuals. Bart Croughs From sparks at bah.com Tue Aug 13 06:20:51 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:20:51 +0800 Subject: Fw: Police on the Net Message-ID: <199608130953.FAA21599@booz.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 13 05:55:50 1996 If any of us find the address, please post the addresses here..... - -----Begin Included Message ----- Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:08 EDT From: "E. ALLEN SMITH" To: cypherpunks at toad.com Cc: First, I'd be interested in knowing some of those online reporting addresses, and how much limits they place on what can be mailed to them... persuading these cops to deal with the improper use of another's computer (i.e., spam) would seem to be a distinct possibility in diverting them from other activities. Second, it would appear possible (unless they're encrypting it) to intercept some of these email lists of theirs - if necessary, by forging a subscribe to an _overseas_ nymserver that isn't too well known (unlike, say, anon.penet.fi). That's about on the same grounds as their mention of "know thine enemy." (It is, of course, pretty certain that various libertarian groups are among those monitored, such as cypherpunks.) Third, this gives additional reasons not to give out one's address to anyone. What people know about me is a post office box and my old address. -Allen - ---- End of forwarded message ---- Cut to save space.... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMhBRJ+J+JZd/Y4yVAQHjYgQKAiBzkv0iVGlG1wNn3QLJwR/KymkzFeej ByxF4uLs/IuQ9Np7Y0MZ64rmO7O85z6yoL0iZUegmwfQFuoVX+A3XrN0gtMzA3YR dyTaOS63IJ5kyBggrSt0Yx6kVT5FtAIELbb3KVC7+oqa2nsc9/DuC24S3uKsSoDm KZ7/qnHd1nM+Mw== =2i9v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From daw at cs.berkeley.edu Tue Aug 13 06:30:32 1996 From: daw at cs.berkeley.edu (David Wagner) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:30:32 +0800 Subject: (Off Topic) Re: FCC_ups In-Reply-To: <199608120538.WAA29683@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: <4upjp5$tc@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> In article , Rabid Wombat wrote: > ob crypto (for anyone who read this far): When packet switched voice > systems become a reality, how can secure calls be placed to any number? > Key exchange during call set-up? How long will this make the call set-up? This is easy. Just use end-to-end encryption. No sweat. (So what if call setup takes a half a second to do a public key encryption? The phone rings for a couple of seconds before the other guy picks it up anyhow.) Well, there's that nasty key distribution and management problem (e.g. who certifies the millions of public keys corresponding to everyone's phone number?), but that's not specific to voice traffic, and this is a well-known annoying problem. The *real* challenge: how do you support sender- and recipient- anonymous phone calls with strong security? Have fun. From bart.croughs at tip.nl Tue Aug 13 06:46:51 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:46:51 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB88FA.42D3D100@groningen16.pop.tip.nl> Perry Metzger wrote: >Bart Croughs writes: >>When economists say that wages are determined by the amount of >>capital >> invested, they mean on a regional/national level, not on the level of >> individuals. >So, you are saying that if everyone in the country spent their life >savings on building giant green pylons, the capital investment would >drive up everyone's wages? Wow! In fact, we could borrow money >from >other countries to build more green pylons and drive up wages so >fast >we could pay off the resultant debt! >Perry >(PS Please stop posting these things -- you may kill everyone >watching >with laughter.) No, I am not saying that if everyone in the country spent their life savings on building giant green pylons, the capital investment would drive up everyone's wages. You are suggesting that I'm saying this, but it's simply not true. This is called 'setting up a straw man'. I am saying that the fact that American workers are better paid than workers in Third World countries, can be explained for a large part by the fact that there is much more capital invested in the US than in Third World countries. If you still don't understand this, I suggest you study my other posts on this subject, or better still, you study the works of the Austrian economists I've quoted before. Bart Croughs From sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si Tue Aug 13 07:15:57 1996 From: sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si (sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:15:57 +0800 Subject: PGP... Message-ID: <009A6C9C.E823907E.18@uni-lj.si> I'm confused.... if you don't want people to be able to read your email, you code it with PGP or other encoders... but why give away your key on your website to everyone? That makes your email readable to everyone... doesn't it? Oh well... I hope someone can explain this to me... Roki From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Aug 13 08:49:02 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:49:02 +0800 Subject: AW: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <199608130335.XAA17171@jekyll.piermont.com> Message-ID: "Perry E. Metzger" writes: > The truly hysterical part is that Tim and I are both (from what I can > tell) Austrians. So was Adolf Hitler. End of thread. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From pjn at nworks.com Tue Aug 13 09:14:13 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:14:13 +0800 Subject: Read; NOW Message-ID: >> >> Hi I'm Unix Code and have a few things to ask...(it may not go >> with Cryptography but go ahead and read) > Sad. You read my mind. P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... Smell The Roses And Eventually You'll Inhale A Bee. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Tue Aug 13 09:20:40 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:20:40 +0800 Subject: thank god and phil... Message-ID: <199608131125.EAA19626@jobe.shell.portal.com> All I can say is thank God and Phil for PGP... My next X was using the 'puter last night and opened my email folders and was rooting around... I had to "fumble" my pass phrase and finally "give up" saying that the damn PGP was broke again... we all know it don't break !! This could have cost me a fortune in divorce court !! From jk at stallion.ee Tue Aug 13 09:42:28 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:42:28 +0800 Subject: non-secure network utilities - pointers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Sam Quigley wrote: > I'm looking for secure telnet, ftp, talk, etc. that I can run over a > potentially insecure network (and their respective daemons). SSH is one way to go, as besides secure rlogin and rsh you can also set up secure encrypted tunnels between hosts for different applications, like X or some other TCP/IP apps. Have a look at http://www.ssh.fi/ SSLtelnet/SSLftp are an other option. J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From frissell at panix.com Tue Aug 13 09:46:08 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:46:08 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960813100507.00a3f8d8@panix.com> At 08:02 PM 8/11/96 -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > >I failed to note obvious counterexamples. Well known authors get giant >advances for books written with manual typewriters. Minimum wage >workers routinely operate expensive equipment. Workers doing the same >job in different places using identical equipment that cost identical >sums earn different salaries. > >Clearly, wages are defined by supply and demand -- not by "capital >investment". In the long run, employers will bid wages up to the level of discounted value of marginal product of the labor -- the present value of the future "price" of the increase in output ascribable to the added worker. It never ceases to amaze me that there are people in this country who actually believe that the average American in poorer now than in 1970. I can only be those who were unconscious in 1970. DCF From sparks at bah.com Tue Aug 13 10:10:05 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 01:10:05 +0800 Subject: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960813094025.006c435c@pop1.jmb.bah.com> I thought metal collanders on the cranium were to prevent space aliens from reading our thoughts and controlling our minds.... Guess I'll have to come up with a better solution... mine seems to have worked thus far, though Charley > >"Erik E. Fair" (Time Keeper) writes: > >> I wonder how well the imager works through mylar or gold lame' clothing (or >> other high-metal content clothing)? > >Have you ever wondered why Tim May wears a protective layer of aluminum >foil on his head? (And lead foil wrapped around his balls.) > >--- > >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM >Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps > From trei at process.com Tue Aug 13 11:03:11 1996 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 02:03:11 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <199608131142.EAA03419@toad.com> Tim writes: > I don't see how "remote scanning" of the population at large, without > probable cause, is much different from the cops listening in from a > distance with parabolic antennas. Both cases involve detection of signals > emitted from the target. And yet such long-distance interception is not > allowed without a warrant. I vaguely remember another possibly relevant precedent, where a judge ruled that a warrant was required before a thermal imager could be used to look at a house suspected by the police of being a (pot) grow house. Peter Trei trei at process.com From mikev at is.co.za Tue Aug 13 11:17:51 1996 From: mikev at is.co.za (Mike van der Merwe) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 02:17:51 +0800 Subject: PGP... In-Reply-To: <009A6C9C.E823907E.18@uni-lj.si> Message-ID: <3210771C.41C67EA6@is.co.za> Hi >I'm confused.... if you don't want people to be able to read your >email, you code it with PGP or other encoders... but why give away >your key on your website to everyone? That makes your email readable >to everyone... doesn't it? Oh well... I hope someone can explain this >to me... Not really, because when you generate a key, you generate a key, two are actually generated: one public and one private. The public key you give to *everyone*, put in you signature, in the newspapers and in your .plan; wherever. You also then have a matching private key, which you NEVER give out. Now the mathematics are pretty simple, but I'll pass over it. Essentially your public key will decode what your private key encrypts and your private key will decode what your public key encodes. So if someone uses your public key to send a message to you, only you can decode it, since ONLY you have the matching private key. This is used for signing as well. If you encrypt your message with your private key, only your public key and decode it, since ONLY you have the matching private key, if your public key, which everyone has, can decode it, then ONLY you could have sent it. So to sign and encrypt a message to someone all that happens is you encrypt your message with your private key and then again with their public key. And it will be signed (only you could have sent it) and encrypted (only they can read it) I should mention at this point that pgp handles all this, because it sounds very complex and time-consuming. To encrypt a message you simply type: pgp -e PrivateLetter.txt sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si --> call pgp [pgp] and encrypt [-e] a message [PrivateLetter.txt] to the recipient [sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si]. Pgp will look sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si up in your own public keyring and use that public key. Signing is just a matter of saying -s as well Hope this helps, and is accurate. Later Mike -- I'm sure we will find out in a few years that Microsoft invented the Net. Or brought it to the masses. Or saved it from a certain and early demise. Or all of the above. JAMES SEYMOUR From morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi Tue Aug 13 11:23:59 1996 From: morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi (Joel Morgan) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 02:23:59 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <199608131316.QAA05679@keilin.helsinki.fi> It seems clear that capital investment in tools will contribute to the -productivity- of workers. (Tools here meaning whatever machinery/ infrastructure is used to get work done.) Bart Croughs quotes a number of economists who seem to be saying that when capital investment leads to increased productivity (per worker) this also leads to higher wages. I'm not sure I understand -why- this should necessarily be so. It's my impression that in manufacturing industries, the more mechanized production is, the more workers will get paid. Then again, perhaps a more mechanized industry will pay more because more mechanized industries hire workers with higher skills (albeit fewer workers). It's my impression that when a company makes capital investments which increase productivity, the fruits of this increased worker productivity are shared (to some extent) with the workers. I can imagine a number of reasons why this might be done, but it's not absolutely clear to me that this would be a direct result of market forces. -- ===================================================================== Joel.Morgan at Helsinki.FI http://blues.helsinki.fi/~morgan "Over the mountains there are mountains." -- Chang-rae Lee ===================================================================== From vince at offshore.com.ai Tue Aug 13 11:28:04 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 02:28:04 +0800 Subject: Rumors of death of Anguilla Data are greatly exaggerated In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greg Kucharo > In the Swiss system, who dictates to the banks thier policies about who > and what they can store? Do the banks have enough influence to sway > lawmakers? It is not that any banks have something on some politician or anything sneeky like you suggest. It is just that in a taxhaven, the government and the country are making good money from the industry. For example in Anguilla there might be 3,000 companies with the government averaging maybe $300 each per year, or $1 mil/year (not sure of the real numbers). Also, the lawyers, accountants, bankers, etc all make up a sizable part of the economy. If the Anguilla government ever make someone give information to the IRS it would destroy this industry. This would be bad for both the governments revenue and the voters income, and so it is very doubtful they ever would. Also, the British want Anguilla to be a taxhaven. They realize it is a good way for a small country to make money. They currently send money to Anguilla every year, and if Anguilla can make plenty of money from the taxhaven industry they won't need to. So the British are actually helping in a number of ways to get Anguilla established as a taxhaven. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From an681132 at anon.penet.fi Tue Aug 13 11:33:13 1996 From: an681132 at anon.penet.fi (an681132 at anon.penet.fi) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 02:33:13 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? Message-ID: <9608131321.AA13545@anon.penet.fi> >> Previously, jonathon wrote: >> >> I know of a very good way to ensure that judges do follow >> the standards that they claim to follow. >> >> It works even better at making politicians keep all the >> election promises the make. >> >> Has one drawback --- it reduces the number of people willing >> to carry out those two functions to virtually zero. OTOH, that >> probably would be a very good thing. > Previously, jim bell wrote: > That's odd...I know of one also! B^) Ok, please clue in the clueless. --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From gary at systemics.com Tue Aug 13 11:58:48 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 02:58:48 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3210858B.7D55368C@systemics.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > At 4:46 PM 8/12/96, snow wrote: > >On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Gary Howland wrote: > > >> Will old fashioned engines be outlawed? > >> Will the "stun guns" be outlawed? > >> Will susceptible electronic systems become mandatory? > >> (and if so, why not just put a remote control switch in all cars?) > > > > One word: Pacemakers. > > Not just pacemakers, but also cars losing steering control (but not forward > speed, obviously) and thus plow into crowds. And airbags that perhaps get > triggered in all the ruckus, breaking the necks of infants (as has > happened). > > Think of the liablility issues! Deliberately causing a car to lose control. > Mon Dieu! Somehow I don't think they'll give a damn about killing passengers and/or pedestrians (after all, they'd shoot them if they were in range, wouldn't they?) Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From bart.croughs at tip.nl Tue Aug 13 12:15:02 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 03:15:02 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB892E.FDB63BA0@groningen13.pop.tip.nl> Duncan Frissel wrote: >In the long run, employers will bid wages up to the level of discounted value of marginal product of the labor -- the present value of the future "price" of the increase in output ascribable to the added worker.< You are right. Wages are determined by the productivity of labor. But the productivity of labor in its turn is for a large part determined by the amount of capital invested. So, there is no contradiction here. >It never ceases to amaze me that there are people in this country who actually believe that the average American in poorer now than in 1970. I can only be those who were unconscious in 1970.< I think you're probably right again, but I never said that the average American is poorer now than in 1970. Again, no contradiction here. Bart Croughs From umwalber at cc.UManitoba.CA Tue Aug 13 12:42:00 1996 From: umwalber at cc.UManitoba.CA (Sean Walberg) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 03:42:00 +0800 Subject: PGP... In-Reply-To: <009A6C9C.E823907E.18@uni-lj.si> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Nope. With PGP you get 2 keys... One you keep secret (secret key), the other you make public (public key). This way, if I want to send you a message, I don't need to talk to you to arrange for a session key or any passcodes, because PGP takes care of it. Say you wanted to send me a message... You check your keyring (pgp -kv), but alas my key isn't there. So you go to the keyserver (http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html), and retreive my key into a file (sean.asc). Then you run pgp on it (pgp sean.asc) and it gets integrated into your keyring. Now you type your message to me, and encrypt it with *my* public key, and *sign it with your private key* (pgp -sea message_to_sean.txt 0xD12B3419). Then you send it off to me. (The 0xD12B3419 is my key id, and is displayed when you play with my key) When I get it, I can export it to a file (message.asc), and run pgp on it (pgp message.asc). Hey, it is signed, so I grab your key from the server, and pgp message.asc it again. Since you encrypted it with my public key, _only my secret key_ can decrypt it, not even you can see it! Also, since only you have access to your secret key, (if your signature checks out), I know it had to have been you who wrote the message and it was not tampered with. (To be technically correct, I don't exactly know it was you, since I haven't trusted your key at this point, but we'll let that one slide) - From this point, we can send and receive messages pretty easily, since we don't have to snarf keys. It is also a bit easier than I make it out to be, because there are many automation tools out there for pgp. Sean On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si wrote: > I'm confused.... if you don't want people to be able to read your > email, you code it with PGP or other encoders... but why give away > your key on your website to everyone? That makes your email readable > to everyone... doesn't it? Oh well... I hope someone can explain this > to me... > > Roki > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sean Walberg umwalber at cc.umanitoba.ca The Web Guy http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umwalber UNIX Group, U. of Manitoba PGP Key Available from Servers -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by mkpgp, a Pine/PGP interface. iQCVAwUBMhCMc982JgvRKzQZAQEjYAP/SWjf2z2lZjYzBKVRMo9fcaMEZXiQSal2 YRjhzIXI9LyOF+mEz+KvPscJEsKqwM0JQl64ZpYhvp2junRly292jflIpxsnSJSS ZteKoFJ+JE2Rd4TMDHbojucAEN4ZrW0G5y6RUcT5ntkKKWCzjGnYhSeM//bb9mOe ccq+A8aI9dY= =j2nK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vince at offshore.com.ai Tue Aug 13 12:55:40 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 03:55:40 +0800 Subject: Anguilla story... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si > > Can someone please tell me the origin of this whole Anguilla story > that's been going around a lot for the past few days... I just > got onto the list two days ago, and I didn't catch the beginning > of it... thanks, In a nut shell, taxbomber.com was on my system in Anguilla. He was selling "camoflauge passports". One David Evans of Bloomberg Business News wrote an article where he quoted taxbombers page saying something like "it is illegal to use these passports to open up bank accounts, but there is little chance of getting caught". I got a call from my lawyer who had seen the article (along with just about everyone else in Anguilla) and he told me that was illegal in Anguilla and I should cancle the account. I did and taxbomber moved to another provider in another country. 1) A number of cypherpunks are dissapointed that I did not fight to my death to defend this guy. 2) If the guy did not mention where his site was, the reporter probably would never have mentioned Anguilla and me in the article. 3) If something is illegal in one country and legal in another, the guy can move. Going after the provider in one country will not stop him. 4) Anguilla is a taxhaven. Anything that gives the country a bad name hurts the clean business, where most of the money is. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 13 13:12:44 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:12:44 +0800 Subject: Hoax: A ban on cryptography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:01 PM -0400 8/12/96, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 2:37 AM 8/13/96, David Kennedy wrote: > >My mailer thinks the e$pam list pulled this from cypherpunks: > Wake up. > > And for those who forward my stuff, please include appropriate disclaimers > to your "spammees" that a) one should read things with an appreciation that > a post may be tongue in cheek, b) that back-spamming to another list is not > cool, and c) that I don't want to be bothered. Yeah. What he said. I hope the cypherpunks list will accept my apologies. There are firm rules about this to e$pam subscribers, and, while I haven't had much occasion to enforce it lately, I might have to, which means kicking the offenders off e$pam. Strike one, Mr. Kennedy. The rule is, if you're on a list with derivative content, particularly one with as large a source-base as e$pam, do NOT reply directly to the source list, in this case cypherpunks. In the case of e$pam, there's a subsidiary discussion list, e$, which was set up for this purpose. Use it. e$ has even gotten to the point where it's generating its own traffic, now, which is nice. To e$pam readers, if you want to talk on cypherpunks, or cyberia, austrianecon, or any or the other 100 or so lists and newsgroups e$pam is filtered from, sign on to the source list itself, read the traffic there for a while, and *then* post something. In other words, become a *member* of the list, and have some manners. Again, I apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused to the cypherpunks list. BTW, I thought Tim's hoax was a good one, but, given that it hadn't shown up anywhere else on the net, (and congress isn't in session :-)), it was pretty easy to spot. It *did* give one pause, though. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From adam at homeport.org Tue Aug 13 13:25:56 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:25:56 +0800 Subject: (Off Topic) Re: FCC_ups In-Reply-To: <4upjp5$tc@joseph.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <199608131233.HAA09323@homeport.org> David Wagner wrote: | The *real* challenge: how do you support sender- and recipient- anonymous | phone calls with strong security? Have fun. Caller calls 1-900-stopper via an international callback service. Caller uses Stopper to reach callee's phone number. Callee, taking responsibility for their own privacy, uses a forward that she placed on a pay phone in Grand Central to a cheese box* in the Seychelles to her real phone. Oh, you want authentication and MITM protection? Only caller<-->callee needs authentication, for the DH key that they share for the call. The other encryption is point to point transport layer stuff; its nice that its there, but a MITM can listen in, and only get one or two phone #s. The chain is as strong as its strongest link, namely the photuris style authentication of the caller<->callee. (A cheese box is a forwarder that works outside of the switch; call #1, it dials #2, then connects it to line 1. So called because the first one the police found was in a cheese box.) Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From combee at sso-austin.sps.mot.com Tue Aug 13 13:33:19 1996 From: combee at sso-austin.sps.mot.com (Ben Combee) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:33:19 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments In-Reply-To: <9608121340.AA47329@jon.clearink.com> Message-ID: <9608131541.AA26416@sso-austin.sps.mot.com> * I can see it now. Apartments full of geeks because the apartments * were originally built with 100BaseX to each place and a T3 in the * basement going direct to the local ISP. * * Tack on another $200/month or whatever to the apartment cost ( geeks * can afford that for sure ) and one might end up having a pretty nice * online melrose place. * * I wonder if anybody has done that yet... Yes, it has already happened, although in a slightly different context. The Georgia Tech campus dormatories got wired with Ethernet back in 1994, and there was quite a rush by the sizable geek population to get dorm rooms in the buildings slated to get installation first. It worked out quite well, especially the privacy aspects, as the dorm routers encrypted all packets so only the intended Ethernet node could receive it (at least that is what they said). So, in this case it was only 10BaseT and gatech.edu as the ISP, but it still was very neat. -- Ben Combee, Software Developer (Will write assembly code for food) Motorola > MIMS > MSPG > CTSD > Advanced ICs > Austin Design Center E-mail: combee at sso-austin.sps.mot.com Phone: (512) 891-7141 From bart.croughs at tip.nl Tue Aug 13 13:33:42 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:33:42 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB892E.F84FC960@groningen13.pop.tip.nl> Timothy May wrote: >The problem with the "Croughs Axiom" is not that there is not a _general_ correlation between average national wages and average national capital investment--there is. < As I said, I would be proud if the axiom that wages are determined by the amount of capital invested was discovered by me, but it really isn't, so there is no reason to keep calling it the "Croughs axiom". This is no display of false modesty. This axiom was already accepted by Austrian economists when I wasn't even born. See my quotes of Rothbard, Hazlitt, etc. in one of my previous posts on this subject. >A scatter plot of wages vs. capital investment for the 200 or so nations would almost certainly show that the Ivory Coast has low per capita wages and low per capita wages, Sweden has both higher wages and higher capital investment per capita, and so on.< I couldn't agree more. > Correlation, of course, is not causation.< Sometimes correlation and causation don't go together; sometimes they do. In this case, they go together. I mentioned the reasoning behind this in a previous post on this subject, but maybe you didn't read this, so I will repeat it here: "Imagine Robinson Crusoe. In the beginning, he catches fish with his bare hands. He has no capital investment, and consequently he is not very productive. His wage will be low (he will not catch much fish). If there is more capital investment - if, for example, he has a fishing rod - he will catch more fish in less time. His productivity is higher. His wage is higher (more fish). If there is still more capital investment - if, for example, he has a boat and fishing nets - he will catch even more fish. His productivity is higher. His wage is higher. Etcetera. So, it's really not difficult to see that Robin's standard of living depends on the amount of capital available on his island. The same goes for the rest of humanity." :>No, the problem was that Croughs invoked this general _correlation_ (which can arise for various reasons) to support his mercantilist protectionist ideas.< This general correlation between wages and the amount of capital invested does not arise for various reasons; it arises for the reason explained above. But of course there are reasons why there is more capital investment in the U.S. than there is in Third World countries. The main reason is that economic activities were and are hindered by the Third World governments more than by the U.S. government. As I already explained in a previous post on this subject, I have no mercantilist protectionist ideas. Even when the movement of US capital abroad would lead to a drop in wages for US workers, I would still support the free movement of capital, simply because I subscribe to the libertarian non-aggression axiom. (And no, I didn't discover this axiom either. Alas.) > (He also didn't say he was talking of nations, which is why some of us found the examples we did, e.g., MacDonald's vs. law firms, which have the opposite correlation he described.)< I didn't say I was talking about nations, because I thought this would be obvious for anyone who knows a bit about economics. Maybe I should have been more explicit here. >And the cloud of ideas connected with somehow forcing capital investment to remain in the U.S....well, the best way to do this is to alter the tax laws so that America (for example) becomes a magnet for investment. (If one is looking to help America, that is.)< I couldn't agree more. But this still doesn't answer the question I asked in my original post. >In any case, the original notion, of somehow using cryptography policy to support U.S. interests....well, I rather doubt that Menger, Von Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, or any of the others connected with the Austrian School would buy Crough's protectionist arguments.< I don't understand. Do you mean to say that I had the notion of using cryptography policy to support U.S. interests? Read my posts again, I can't find this notion in my posts. It agree that Menger, Von Mises, Hayek or Hazlitt could probably answer the question I asked in my original post, which I will repeat here for the sake of clarity: "If American companies are moving capital to Third World countries because of the low wages in these countries, then the workers in the Third World will of course be better off. But in the US, the amount of capital will be lowered. So the American workers will be able to get other jobs, but these jobs will pay less, because of the diminished amount of capital in the US. (As I said in another post on this subject, I mean that these jobs will pay *relatively less*, that is: less than they would have been paid if the American capital wouldn't have left the U.S.) Of course there are advantages also for the US (shareholders will get higher returns, trade will increase), but how can you proof that these advantages will offset the disadvantage of the lowered amount of capital in the US? " So I agree that the Austrian economists could probably answer my question, but in their books I wasn't able to find the answer, and these economists are not on this list. So I hoped that others on this list who had knowledge of Austrian economics could answer this question. That's really the only reason I asked my question: I wanted to be able to rebut protectionist arguments more effectively.You seem to be acquainted with the Austrian economists, but so far, you didn't answer my question. >And I certainly know that jingoistic appeals to "America First!" are inconsistent with the sentiments of many or even most on this list.< I know, that's why it's so disappointing that nobody has been able to answer my question thus far. And, as I said earlier, I share this sentiment; that's why I'm on the list. I just want to be able to defend my sentiments better against protectionist arguments. Bart Croughs From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Tue Aug 13 13:36:13 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:36:13 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases In-Reply-To: <199608101504.RAA03459@internal-mail.systemics.com> Message-ID: <199608131558.IAA08092@jobe.shell.portal.com> > Why don't they just have government access to car engines? They > could just require car manufacturers to include remote shutdown > devices for the engines. Well, then Carhacker arrives and shutdown any engine he can find :) From an681132 at anon.penet.fi Tue Aug 13 13:42:09 1996 From: an681132 at anon.penet.fi (an681132 at anon.penet.fi) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:42:09 +0800 Subject: don't say "bomb" on the internet Message-ID: <9608131553.AA14051@anon.penet.fi> Previously "I=(!isnum(self))" wrote: > `(l) It shall be unlawful for any person to teach or demonstrate the >making of explosive materials, or to distribute by any means information >pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture of explosive materials, --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 13 13:52:31 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:52:31 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <199608131531.IAA19743@dns1.noc.best.net> At 09:29 AM 8/13/96 +-200, Bart Croughs wrote: > In several posts I gave quotes from famous Austrian economists > that support my statement that according to Austrian economists > wages depend on the amount of capital invested. You are wrong, and Perry is wrong, or rather you are misleading, and Perry is wrong. The statement "wages depend on the amount of capital invested". can have several meanings. In the hands of the Austrians, it does not have the implications that you force on it, and this is what Perry ought to be complaining about, though instead he is saying something quite different. Obviously if everyone saves more money and invests it those things that they find most profitable, this will raise both total income and wages. Obviously if the government takes control of other peoples capital, and directs it to those places it finds most socially desirable, this will lower both total income and wages. I assume we are in agreement so far. Next question: If the government restrains american businessmen from investing outside America, will this alter the balance of power between capital and labor inside America, in favor of labor, while altering it against labor outside America. Well if nothing else changed, yes it would, and if Perry denied this he was wrong. But of course capital is international, because it belongs to individuals, not to nations. Since large amounts of money flow in and out of the US, a bureaucratic intervention that aimed to have the desired effect would have to be extensive and drastic, amounting to fascist style socialism. Again, I assume we are in agreement on this. Next question: Competition between labor in the third world, and labor in the US. In those cases where labor is a minor factor in production, then the price of labor would be dominated by the cheapest source of labor. Or rather the cheapest source of labor that is not controlled by a government that capriciously robs and enslaves. At present the cheapest such labor source is probably Thailand, which is not actually all that cheap these days, but is one hell of a lot cheaper than the US. But for *desirable jobs*, such as software engineering, the jobs that people are getting excited about, the cost of labor in Thailand is roughly comparable to the cost in America. The kind of jobs that are being taken by cheap unskilled Thai labor, are the jobs you cannot get anyone to do in America except for illegal immigrants. We would expect this, because in any area where labor is the dominant factor of production (such as engineering) a large supply of cheap labor will very swiftly CREATE the necessary capital. Again, you might point to India as an infamous counter example, since engineering labor is vastly cheaper in India. But this is not a result of supply and demand causing an extreme misdistribution of wealth between capital and labor, but is a reflection of the fact that an engineer who is subject to the power of the Indian government is not worth very much, as is demonstrated by the fact that companies with Indian engineering teams often spend a lot of money to get their employees out of India. Demand for Indian programmers is less than supply not because capital has somehow failed to flow to India, but because an engineer in India is not free to produce the value that engineers elsewhere are free to produce. To say the same thing another way: The primary capital for engineers is that held within engineers heads. Therefore controls on capital flows are controls on engineers, which are likely to benefit those doing the controlling, not those controlled. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From sandfort at crl.com Tue Aug 13 14:01:21 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:01:21 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB88FA.42D3D100@groningen16.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, I've just had an insight with regard to Bart's ongoing capital debate. In response to Perry's "green pylon" post, Bart wrote: > I am saying that the fact that American workers are better paid > than workers in Third World countries, can be explained for a > large part by the fact that there is much more capital invested > in the US than in Third World countries. Bart's error lies in his confusion of the terms "captial" and "capital investment." While capital may be used to make capital investments, there are other things it can be spent for as well (wages, taxes, supplies, etc.). If Bart were to use the term "infrastructure" then it would be clear that the ebb and flow of mere capital would have relatively little to do with infrastructure influenced wages. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From geeman at best.com Tue Aug 13 14:12:46 1996 From: geeman at best.com (I=(!isnum(self))) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:12:46 +0800 Subject: Hoax: A ban on cryptography? In-Reply-To: <960813023753_76702.3557_CHN38-4@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: <3210A92B.4C45@best.com> The "hoax" is a dramatization of possible legislation based on the language used in Di Fi's anti-bomb-making-rhetoric legislation proposed and passed in the Senate. I posted that bill, and asked the list if anyone knew the status. Tim May responded with the dramatized crypto version and asked "What is the status of _this_ bill" [emphasis added] .... and if I interpret correctly, the intent was 1. to chide 2. to dramatize What if that WERE a bill being proposed?? David Kennedy wrote: > > My mailer thinks the e$pam list pulled this from cypherpunks: > > >> S.1666 > > Department of Commerce Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997 (Passed by the > Senate) << > > And this is bogus, and as far as I can tell not a typo, it's complete hokum. > > S.1666 is an obscure bill about courts in Utah. > > A search of http://thomas.loc.gov on "encryption" reveals the expected bills, > PRO-CODE etc. > > A search for the DoC Authorization Act reveals nothing, as far as I can tell > this bill has not been drafted let alone passed. I don't know enough about how > the DoC is funded to know if they get their own Authorization Act or receive > authorizations piecemeal and by the reconciliation. > > Again, this is bogus. > > !^NavFont02F02350014QGHHG|MG~HG85QG87HI}2126 From David.K.Merriman at toad.com Tue Aug 13 14:22:07 1996 From: David.K.Merriman at toad.com (David.K.Merriman at toad.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:22:07 +0800 Subject: Fw: 1024-bit keys Message-ID: <199608131404.HAA06583@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: spencer at luckman.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 13 10:36:48 1996 Absent any ability to cite a chapter-and-verse for making such a statement, and considering the vagueness of it, I would suggest that it either be clarified, justified, or removed. I would think that, in it's present form, that statement leaves Luckman in no small amount of jeopardy: if true, but misunderstood because of lack of reference, anyone violating it may seek redress against Luckman in the event of prosecution by some law enforcement agency. If untrue, Luckman could be considered equally liable for any real or perceived lost income because of an erroneous limitation, when it's incorrectness is discovered. - -----Begin Included Message ----- Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:00:42 -0700 From: Spencer Yuen (by way of Technical Support via Heidi ) To: merriman at shiner.amaonline.com Cc: David, to my knowledge- it's the latter. U.S. prevents Verisign from deploying keys greater than 512 bits to Web servers outside the U.S.. And no, I can't tell you the Federal Regulation, Title, Section. >"Also, please note that you cannot send keys longer than 512 to servers >outside the United States." > >I would like to ask for clarification on this point. Is this meant to say >that a server inside the United States is not allowed to use a 512+ bit key >with a client outside the U.S., or that a Web Commander server outside the >U.S. may not employ a key of greater than 512 bits? In either case, what is >the justification for such a statement/restriction? If a Federal >regulation, could you please cite the Title and Section? > ===================================================================== | Spencer Yuen | Luckman Interactive | | spencer at luckman.com | (213) 614-0966 | | Quality Assurance | ext. 145 | ===================================================================== ________________________________________________________________________ Heidi Lou Bailey (h) 213.664.8669 (w) 213.614.0966 ext. 137 The world is stinky and the world is smelly. That makes for a nice day //// (0 0) **ooO*(_)*Ooo** ________________________________________________________________________ "To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of the arts." * * * * * * >>--- * * NICK--> * * * * * - ---- End of forwarded message ---- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMg/qSMVrTvyYOzAZAQGTtgQAr0TQQs7hkR8VvjhFUvOoLY4eScAI86Z7 qJ4HLHtniZExAueAYrL/fyh1tRi5RbuwtL49KdzhWF8d9nYNddzqc8O1ybb4yt3O 2TU96gDOfjFmv6mLTlWv+LfWIiYBXzNvGT1DYSeZO8atyPTW1BOX7ES/y3t1XPco FDwfFR9NUM4= =V0EI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 13 14:23:08 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:23:08 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: <199608131643.JAA19738@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:15 PM 8/12/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 4:43 AM 8/13/96, jim bell wrote: >>At 09:54 AM 8/12/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >> >>> >>>(And I'm not ignorant of such technologies, having attended several of the >>>Nuclear and Space Radiation Effects Conferences. I also played around with > >>Why would you need an "EM Cannon" for this? Just string a 1-car-sized loop >>of wire on the surface of a road, and off in the bushes hide a battery, >>DC-to-Hi voltage DC converter and 20kv+ capacitor, and a vacuum switch or >>some other switch arrangement. When the car in question traverses the loop, >>short the switch and the car will be blasted with 20,000 volt-turns of >>induction. Sure, most of it will pass harmlessly through the car's steel, >>but even iron has a limited "mu" which means that every electrical device in >>the car will be subjected to a certain amount of induced EMF, probably >>enough to at least reset a few microprocessors and possibly even destroy them. > >Well, we're all operating based on speculation, as to intended modes of >operation, what the contracts may ask for, what may eventually get >delivered, etc. > >Certainly the described mode, that of a police car _pursuing_ another car, >suggests a car-launched signal. Rewiring the nation's roads to include >buried cables in anticipation of a future use would be pretty expensive! Yes, it would be rather impractical for _that_ particular application. >(And if the cops can plan for a suspect/fleeing car to pass a specific >location, low-tech solutions like laying a row of caltrops across the road >will do much the same thing as "zapping" (which may not even work.)) The one place where this might be practical is on highways where these units can be placed fairly sparsely and still have a Even so, I think that non-police applications are more "interesting." >As to high-voltage zapping, on this I am _extremely_ skeptical, at least as >Jim's proposal above goes. Modern chips are equipped to deal with >high-voltage, having electrostatic discharge (ESD) provisions. Voltages a >lot higher than 20kv. That's based on a certain source model. You know, a specific capacitor in series resistance to limit the current. However, if the current was induced from a low-impedance circuit, damaging currents might flow even if the EMF within a certain shielded loop in the car never exceeded a few tens of volts. > >And getting this hv signal in to the interior of the engine compartment, >and past the various thermal and other shields would be a chore. Certainly >the rubber tires will provide an _awful_ lot of insulation! No, Tim, remember that I'm postulating an _inductively_ coupled system. Loop on ground, loops in the car, etc. Magnetic coupling. Conduction through car tires would be irrelevant the the functioning of this system. Wouldn't hurt it; wouldn't help it. (Side note: BTW, car tires are not non-conductive. Check it out someday with a ohmmeter.) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From geoff at commtouch.co.il Tue Aug 13 14:26:36 1996 From: geoff at commtouch.co.il (geoff) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:26:36 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <19960813152643711.AAA272@[194.90.26.157]> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 13 18:39:12 1996 on Aug 13 Sean Sutherland wrote: > Whatever happened to that free offer for ProntoSecure for members of > the Cpunk list? Remembered hearing something about it awhile back, > but I don't know exactly what it is. Thanks. The offer is still on. A free copy of Pronto Secure in exchange for feedback. Open to anyone on the c'punk list. http://www.commtouch.com/p1.htm for download. http://www.commtouch.com/testers.htm for users' impressions. http://www.commtouch.com/s-mail.html for description. Announcement: Effective immediately. New list price for Pronto - ------------ Secure is $99. Contact secure at commtouch.com if group discounts required. - --------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Klein, Pronto Secure Product Manager; www.commtouch.com My PGP public Key 1814AD45 can be obtained by sending a message to geoff at commtouch.co.il with "Get PGP Key" as the subject. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMhChpkLv5OMYFK1FAQFE/gP+NVaU5a+fdU5YuGLPDrD02DuXgfc/skZP sKUuE2yJcBV1N7ITjWJEkf98hgWr688G71lJ2+1JGob1bLBF5bBDT3M2ag5eX5Dl dARvhjtcU4+bDxOrnOsJ4wlAyTZ1WmfmaDoe5IPKdgAu+6gTDS+3dq31vm2oFaud /2qazWTTUwA= =jFNk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From frissell at panix.com Tue Aug 13 14:47:34 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:47:34 +0800 Subject: Econopunks FAQ, Ver. 0.98 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960813144043.00887ef8@panix.com> What is a Fair Price for a good or service? There is no such thing as a Fair Price. There are only the prices paid by willing buyers and sellers. These are generally called market prices. Many factors influence price including cost of production and product characteristics but the only determinants are the desire of market actors to complete transactions at given prices. You may think that you are smart enough to decide what a good or service should sell for, but if you're not putting cash on the barrel head, you're not even part of the process of arriving at the "price". ******* Just a suggestion to future Econopunks posters: Try not to post the economics equivalent of the "Can't you make an unbreakable code by running the plaintext through a Caesarian Cypher 7500 times?" question. DCF "No good or service should be sold for more than its cost of production -- therefore, all you folks who are ripping off your employers must report to the slave barracks where you will be provided with triple bunks (hot bunked), all the rice and beans needed to sustain life, a multivitamin tablet daily, and loads of clean water." From sandfort at crl.com Tue Aug 13 14:53:43 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:53:43 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB88ED.98A382E0@groningen16.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Bart Croughs wrote: > You claim that I must show that foreign capital investment > will not flow back to US workers. But in my original post, I > said: > > "Of course there are advantages also for the US (shareholders > will get higher returns, trade will increase), but how can you > proof that these advantages will offset the disadvantage of the > lowered amount of capital in the US? " > > You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the > U.S. is worse off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how > can you proof that the US isn't worse off when US capital moves > abroad? The movement of capital from the US was an *assumption* in Bart's argument. He has done nothing to show that it would in fact happen. When he proves that, they it would be reasonable to expect me to offer proof that foreign capital will flow to the US. It seems just as likely to me that US source capital will NOT flow overseas if it can be profitably invested in other US industries that retain--or gain--competitive advantage from relative changes in productivity, supply and demand, or whatever. In my experience, Americans are loathe to invest money overseas unless it is highly profitable. The reason is obvious. They understand--or think they understand--the rules here. In historical terms, US investments have been more stable and safer than investments overseas. (Which is why, by the way, that the US is the worlds largest tax haven in the world, but I digress.) Thus, until Bart can support his highly dubious assertion that capital that flows away from some non-competitive US industries will necessarily flow offshore, there is no need for me to prove that such a situation will probably lead to a counterbalancing foreign capital flow into the US. So far, Bart has not yet met his burden of proof. While I'm sure per capita capital investment is a *factor* in determining how high wages are, it certainly is not the only factor. It appears that Bart has fixated on this one to the exclusion of other (probably more important) factors. > If you don't know the answer, there's nothing to be ashamed of. It is just this sort of unnecessary condescending snottiness that create the clear impression that Bart is an asshole. Perhaps he is a fine chap and this is just his style, but I find it very offensive an counter-productive in this discussion. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From shamrock at netcom.com Tue Aug 13 14:58:53 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:58:53 +0800 Subject: (Off Topic) Re: FCC_ups Message-ID: At 3:01 8/13/96, David Wagner wrote: >The *real* challenge: how do you support sender- and recipient- anonymous >phone calls with strong security? Have fun. Sender anonymous phone calls are easy. You route them through PipeNet, assuming every PipeNet node has a telephony gateway. Recipient anonymous phone calls a harder to implement. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From an681132 at anon.penet.fi Tue Aug 13 15:16:02 1996 From: an681132 at anon.penet.fi (an681132 at anon.penet.fi) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 06:16:02 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? & a little off topic Message-ID: <9608131358.AA28171@anon.penet.fi> > Preiously, jim bell > However, hours after it was publicly revealed that the Atlanta > 911 center screwed up, wasting 10 minutes looking up the address of > "Centennial park," After watching the news during the coverage of the 911 call, I couldn't help but notice the free computer advertisement. I don't suppose that --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From shamrock at netcom.com Tue Aug 13 15:16:07 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 06:16:07 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: At 9:27 8/13/96, Peter Trei wrote: >I vaguely remember another possibly relevant precedent, where a >judge ruled that a warrant was required before a thermal imager >could be used to look at a house suspected by the police of >being a (pot) grow house. Wrong. No warrant was used and the bust was upheld in court. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Tue Aug 13 15:17:11 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 06:17:11 +0800 Subject: India, Productivity, and Tropical Climes Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960813173132.002f7834@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 13:15 11/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 4:17 AM 8/11/96, Arun Mehta wrote: >>One of the >>reasons that IBM was thrown out of India in the mid seventies was >>their practice of shipping only outdated computers from the US to >>India. >This I tend to disagree with. I recall that India had some laws in the >1970s which required companies to dislose trade secrets to them. As a >result, IBM chose not to stay in India. I recall that Coca-Cola also >refused to turn over the formula for Coke, but this may've been urban >legend. The IBM case is pretty well-documented. IBM would've sold the >latest and greatest technology to India if: a) it was profitable to them, >b) if India could've paid for a 370/90 or whatever in 1975, c) if COCOM >regulations would have allowed such a sale (doubtful, given the Ghandi >dynasty's cozying up to the Sovs in the 70s. > >I don't think shipment of "old technology" to India was at all on IBM's >list of concerns, certainly not back then. Sorry, the response took a while: George Fernandes, who was the industries minister at the time, is an acquaintance, so I thought I'd get the story from the horse's mouth. In the aftermath of the oil crisis, India was short of foreign exchange, so it passed the Foreign Exchange Regulation Act (FERA) under which foreign equity in an Indian company could only exceed 40% if the company was hi-tech or produced something of critical national importance. The government saw no reason why precious foreign exchange should go out as profits on the sale of toothpaste or cola. Coke claimed that its secret formula qualified it as a hi-tech company, and so it should be allowed 100% ownership of its Indian subsidiary. The government saw no reason why: that was easy. The Indian government wasn't asking Coke to reveal its formula, merely dilute its holding to 40%. That one was easy. As regards IBM, its agreement with the government of India, under which it was allowed to operate in the country, stipulated that it would produce here, and transfer some technology. Instead, as the government found, all it did was sell time on second-hand computers (1401's as I recall, and this was mid to late '70s). IBM was asked to either dilute, or live up to its original agreement, which it wasn't prepared to do, so it left. > >As attractive as this sounds, historically this has not happened. And as >many will tell you, the climate of the Bay Area in particular and >California in general is extremely benign and delightful. The average >winter temperature is only about 10C cooler than summer temperatures. Didn't Mark Twain say that the coldest winter he had ever experienced was a summer in San Francisco? I do agree, SF and environs are great: but US immigration laws being what they are, not everyone can move there -- some day, "routing around" might make those places more attractive which have the least restrictive immigration laws. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Aug 13 15:33:03 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 06:33:03 +0800 Subject: cybergangs In-Reply-To: <199608130215.EAA20375@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) writes: > Dimitri Vulis ranted thusly into the aether: > > >Death to the Usenet Cabal! All power to the GruborBots! > > Jeez, is there no place safe from Dimitri's Cabal rantings? There Is No Cabal > fnord. So there. There is no place on the 'net safe for the Usenet Cabal or the fucking statists who call themselves "libertarians". > > ObCypherpunks: It's worth noting that Dimitri's reputation capital is so deva > > dlv at bwalk.dm.com Dr. Dimitri Vuli > ! Vote rejected by votetaker (untrusted site) > > This is from Message-ID: <839564931.8926 at uunet.uu.net>, btw. > > --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From jbash at cisco.com Tue Aug 13 16:03:02 1996 From: jbash at cisco.com (John Bashinski) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:03:02 +0800 Subject: India, Productivity, and Tropical Climes In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960813173132.002f7834@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <199608131901.MAA02656@mort> > Didn't Mark Twain say that the coldest winter he had ever > experienced was a summer in San Francisco? Mark Twain also said (from memory, and probably not exact): "In India, 'cold weather' is merely a polite phrase used to distinguish weather that will melt a brass doorknob from weather that will only make it mushy.". Sorry, couldn't resist... -- John B. Very near San Francisco From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 13 16:04:29 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:04:29 +0800 Subject: PGP... Message-ID: <199608131531.IAA19761@dns1.noc.best.net> At 12:39 PM 8/13/96 +0100, sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si wrote: > I'm confused.... if you don't want people to be able to read your > email, you code it with PGP or other encoders... but why give away > your key on your website to everyone? That makes your email readable > to everyone... doesn't it? Oh well... I hope someone can explain this > to me... Public keys and private keys: Private key only you know, Public key everybody knows. You use private key to sign, you use the other guys public key to encrypt, so that no one but him can read the message, not even you, unless you kept the original copy. Public key does not decrypt. Other guy uses his private key to decrypt the message you sent him. What one man knows, nobody knows, what two men know, everyone knows. If you had to share keys in order to communicate, the keys would not stay secret very long. Public key encrypts and verifies signature. Private key encrypts and signs. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 16:06:06 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:06:06 +0800 Subject: Anguilla story... Message-ID: At 2:24 PM 8/13/96, Vincent Cate wrote: >In a nut shell, taxbomber.com was on my system in Anguilla. He was >selling "camoflauge passports". One David Evans of Bloomberg Business >News wrote an article where he quoted taxbombers page saying something >like "it is illegal to use these passports to open up bank accounts, but >there is little chance of getting caught". I got a call from my lawyer who >had seen the article (along with just about everyone else in Anguilla) and >he told me that was illegal in Anguilla and I should cancle the account. >I did and taxbomber moved to another provider in another country. > >1) A number of cypherpunks are dissapointed that I did not fight to my >death to defend this guy. I think you're overstating the case made by some of us, or, at least, by me. What I said was that your policies need to be spelled out, and that I saw little evidence of "fraud" in what the guy was doing. And that if you cut off accounts (without warning, it sounds like) based on fairly flimsy (it seems to me, and to Duncan, and to others) advice, then certain reputational consequences are likely to follow. By the way, from what you quote this guy as saying ("it is illegal to use these passports to open up bank accounts, but there is little chance of getting caught"), I _still_ see no fraud. People can make all sorts of claims, often they throw in claims of illegality or "pirate" status just to add a frisson of the dangerous to their marketing campaign. Cancelling an account on such a basis is rarely wise. That "everyone else in Anguilla" read the account may be the real reason, of course. Not that this reason instills much confidence.... >2) If the guy did not mention where his site was, the reporter probably >would never have mentioned Anguilla and me in the article. Is this the real issue, that what he was doing brought bad publicity to you and to Anguilla? These issues need to be aired. Of course you have every right to run things as you wish, modulo contractual arrangements you may have entered into with your customers and your Internet providers. But we on this list have certain ideas about what an "offshore information provider" should provide. Contrast this case with the well-publicized cases recently where Neo-Nazi material is being hosted on U.S. web sites. After getting a lot of publicity, the web site providers stood firm and said they were not in the business of removing such sites, even if they brought a lot of bad publicity and even if they were in fact in violation of the laws of some countries whose citizens could access the sites. I don't claim camouflage passports = Neo-Nazi sites, but their are certainly some similarities. So, if I opened an account on "Offshore Information Services" and placed such materials there, and this got heavily publicized ("Anguilla a Center for Neo-Nazi Revival!"), would my account be cancelled? Again, I'm not saying you don't have the "right" to do so, only that you ought to carefully consider such issues, and carefully articulate a policy of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, and how you will deal with customers who have some material (or even some marketing claims) which may conflict with your policies. --Tim May HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From daros at cryptonet.it Tue Aug 13 16:06:11 1996 From: daros at cryptonet.it (Paolo Da Ros) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:06:11 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Message-ID: <199608131554.RAA03474@relay.cryptonet.it> At 07.54 11/08/96 -0400, you wrote: >Forwarded by Robert Hettinga > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >X-Sender: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 10:17:31 +0600 > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > From: Arun Mehta > Subject: Re: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption > Technology > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Precedence: bulk > > >At 02:05 10/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >At 12:15 PM 8/10/96, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > >>I was watched CBS reports a couple nights ago about how all these blue collar > >>and now white collar jobs are going across seas. > > > >Where do I begin? First, what does "taking jobs away from us" mean? That we > >own these jobs? And who is "us"? > > Well said. Sure. jobs belong to people which are the more competitive to perform them (which ask less to do the some job or ask the same to do a better job). Since markets are going to be "global", as a consumer or a reseller I can buy wherever I want whatever I want -well, almost, and crypto, remailers etc can help-. The improvements in the competitive position of US economy have one of their roots in the loss of purchase power by the american workforce (less to do the same job, or the same to do a better job). This is something I guess Germans are going to experience. In Italy there is an old tradition of using devaluation as a competitive mean (ask the french government and french industrialists what they thought after the IT Lira lost 30% in a few months, back in 1992-3). > > >>So a possible way to protect jobs is to protect the knowledge on how to do > >>them. I don't think it's possible to "protect jobs". This translates into blocking the market mechanisms, which constantly, by mean of the competition, push toward better quality, lower prices and/or new products. Right or wrong, market wins. If ideas are worth money, they spread. To confirm the simmetry of politics on the two sides of the pond, I was told the US right (newt gingrich) has on this issue the same idea here in Italy is supported by the far left (the Rifondazione Comunista party). The idea is to make mandatory a label on every third world product which states the amount of child labor embedded in the product. I see in this "moral" approach to economy two possible outcomes: the first is that nobody buys such products, (the goal of the proposal) based on child exploitation (and so the child is not exploited anymore, and starves to death while smiling to his first world "friends"); the second is that lots of people buy the product not because of its features, price etc, but to help the poor child. In this way, the moral approach to economic issues has two immoral possible outcomes (I enjoy these paradoxes, it's one of the few things I still like of Marx). The problem is that there are millions of hungry people, and a simple solution is not available. Who says he has it is a liar. > > To some extent this happens automatically -- for instance, if you > live in the Silicon valley, your knowledge levels are higher on > account of higher frequency of user meets, conferences, etc. But, > to the extent you use the Internet as an information source, it > is available internationally. So you cannot have it both ways: > use an open forum like the Internet, and hope to keep knowledge bottled in. The only choice we first world citizens have is to run faster, try to invent new products or new ways to produce old products. I have been told that the quality of eastern europe programmers is very high, and we cannot compete with people which makes one tenth or less than we do (well, we CAN compete, if we accept to make the same...). BTW, from the very little I know about some members of this list, it looks like they are "creme de la creme": very bright people, wide vision of the issues, eclectic culture (at least two of the brightest of them share my love for LISP machines, so my ego gets comforted...), and constant research of the best market position for themselves. Unfortunately, individuals can easily switch and try to improve their position, national economies have a far bigger momentum to win to achieve the same result. Besides, if everybody could so easily switch, the improvement -a higher relative position- could not exist at all. > > In earlier generations of computing, monopolistic organizations [snip] > projects such as Iridium, Odyssey, Teledisc and Globalstar > threaten to change all this, little impact will be felt until the > end of the decade. In any case, telecom facilities in the > industrialized countries will most likely continue to be > considerably superior, providing workers there with an ongoing > competitive advantage. This is an extra-optimistic view. In one of my previous job at a very large European system integrator, three years ago, I was told that "SW projects used to be 7 years long, are 7 months long, and we shall prepare for the moment when they will be 7 days long". So workers there will have a competitive advantage (perhaps) at doing a shrinking amount of work. Given their age, many members of the list are accustomed to shrinking markets and new skills acquisitions (see Artificial Intelligence back in the 80s), as is possible to understand from the fact that they are positioned in one of the hottest spots in one of the fastest growing markets. So I assume many are familiar with the job-kiling role of technology. The competitive disadvantage of industrialized countries workers is provided by these workers themselves when they put competitive advantage of their know-how in new products or technologies. > > Further, as economists such as Paul Krugman point out, developing > countries lack the means for sustained growth ("Which Asian > Model?", Newsweek, November 20, 1995). Those economies that have I wouldn't trust a newsmagazine on such a critical topic. And (hope you don't take this as a chauvinistic european statement) expecially NOT an American newsmagazine. Nice photos, poor content. > shown dramatic growth, such as the East Asian, have relied > essentially on low-cost inputs, rather than on their efficient If you know how many are the chinese, you could come to the conclusion that as soon as they improve their agricolture, HUNDRED MILLIONS low-cost people (input?) are available to exploit new markets. So, low cost input shortage is not an issue. Yes, their economic model could reach a critical point when they reach, say, a 6K$ gdp pro capita, but by then their gdp should be 1.200.000.000 * 6.000 US$, i.e. 7.2 trillion US$. (today their GDP pro capita should be around 900US$, i.e 1.08 TrnUS$, growing at 10% per year) > utilization. Professor Alwyn Young of Boston has in fact come to > the surprising conclusion that Singapore's total factor very surprising indeed. If I'm not wrong, singapore has a GDP pro capita around 12K$. And productivity is what defines the GDP. Should productivity in Singapore really be so low, I can't understand how capital intensive industries (semiconductors, for instance) could have been established there by so well managed western companies like HP or TI etc > productivity (which measures such efficiency) is so poor as to be > comparable to that of the Soviet Union. He points out that "at > just the time that everybody was ranting about how magnificent > Japan was, it ceased to catch up." Well. yen was at 300. Now it is at 108. It means that to buy -say- fine Californian Wine -apart from customs, which is an issue, of course- a few years ago a japanese blue collar had to spend -say- 2 hours. Now 40 minutes (the example is not very good, but should explain my thinking). > > Cheap inputs is not a long-term phenomenon, as companies looking > for good programmers in India are increasingly discovering. > Programmer salaries in India are rapidly rising. While many > youngsters are keen to become programmers, India lacks adequate the real killer here is technology, not low-cost programmers from India. All the recent emphasis on Intranets is emphasis on a dramatic standardization of everyting; GUI, security, infrastructure, access to data etc. Standardization means better productivity, and productivity is "less people to do the same job". [snip] > >>Perhaps there is a larger picture in the world that the cyperpunks mailing > >>list is missing. That cryptography is not just for personal privacy, but > >>could involve job security also - as a matter of fact, the income base for Job security doesn't exist. There used to be in eastern europe, but it didn't work. Job security output were Trabants (funny east german cars) or poor quality state restaurants. > >>this whole country. I think the picture is far larger than that of the simple right to the privacy. You don't care of your privacy when your stomach is empty, and there is too much people with his stomach empty. So, many things will change as many poor people become richer and many middle(or low) -income people become poorer. I think one of the things which will have an impact on this change is going to be the net, and crypto is a net-enabler (uno of the most important, I would say). So, cypherpunks are going to be exposed to all the important things to happen. I don't think they alone will be in the position to change nothing, but they will bring an informed point of view in the discussion. I once dreamed to change the world, or at least to control the way things had to go. Now the situation is so complex that I could feel satisfied just being able to understand what's happening and how we will face change. My enrollment in this list is because lots if bright people submit ideas on the topic here, and this is of the greatest value. > [snip] > > My prediction is that with the blessings of the Internet, the > next generation of multiracial programmers, even those that were > born in the USA, will be more likely to be found on the beaches I'm not sure there will be something like "the next generation of programmers". Not in the sense world is going to end, but in the sense that possibly, in the new world which is coming to birth in these years, there will be no need of programmers (but a few hundreds of them...). > of tropical islands than in the fog of San Francisco. When you > can work in the shade of a palm tree, even if you should earn > less, it's worth it :-) > > Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org > http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key > > > >-------------------------------------------------- >The e$ lists are brought to you by: > >Take Your Business Online with Intertrader Ltd, Edinburgh, U.K. >Visit http://www.intertrader.com or email info at intertrader.com > >Making Commerce Convenient (tm) - Oki Advanced Products - Marlboro, MA >Value-Checker(tm) smart card reader= http://www.oki.com/products/vc.html > >Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion >http://www.hyperion.co.uk info at hyperion.co.uk > >See your name here. Be a charter sponsor for e$pam, e$, and Ne$ws! >See http://thumper.vmeng.com/pub/rah/ or e-mail rah at shipwright.com >for details... >------------------------------------------------- > > From droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com Tue Aug 13 16:07:49 1996 From: droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:07:49 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <9608131856.AA05229@spirit.aud.alcatel.com> If foil or metal mesh would block it, then many recently built houses would be already set. Usually that 1/2 - 1 inch styrofoam used on almost all exterior walls has a reflective layer of foil to help keep the heat/cold out. Then again, this sounds like hype-ed up infra-red technology to me, in which case seeing through walls is B.S. Dan > > At 06:56 PM 8/12/96 EDT, you wrote: > Since metal blocks the waves and stands out on the screen one could affectively > block its use by putting up a fine metal mesh on the interior of all walls > that are exterior to the house. The same could be said for clothing that > looks normal but has a metal mesh liner, like say a trench coat. > > > I would wonder if a jamming device (preferably area-effect with a > >slowly randomly varying swathe of area, to avoid figuring out who was carrying > >it) would be possible, or some variety of shielding (i.e., emitting waves > >looking similar to flesh). > > -Allen > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Oelke Alcatel Network Systems droelke at aud.alcatel.com Richardson, TX From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Tue Aug 13 17:07:25 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:07:25 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960813185919.002f9d2c@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Bart Croughs wrote: >I don't assume that the *total amount* of capital will be lowered in the US when US capital moves abroad. I assume that the amount of capital in the US will be *relatively lower*. So the wages will be *relatively* lower (lower than when the capital wouldn't have left the US), but not necessarily lower in any absolute sense. I thought this was obvious, but since Arun Mehta also misunderstood me, maybe I should have been more explicit here. > Henry Hazlitt in 'economics in one lesson' (p. 139): "The best way to raise wages, therefore, is to raise marginal labor productivity. This can be done by many methods: by an increase in capital accumulation - i.e. by an increase in the machines with which the workers are aided..." Pardon me, but I'm still confused. When Hazlitt talks about how many machines are employed, surely that's "absolute" capital, not relative. If US capital is invested abroad sensibly, such that it enriches the investors, they have more money to invest in machines at home and thereby increase local productivity (and wages). Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 17:20:29 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:20:29 +0800 Subject: More on "Fraud" and Anguilla Message-ID: I've been thinking about this whole "Taxbomber" issue of "fraud." (I'm still not completely sure whether Taxbomber lost his account at Offshore Information Services Ltd. because: a) what he was offering actually violated Anguillan law (was there a determination that selling camouflage passports violates a specific statute?) b) what he was offering constituted fraud (to whom? His customers certainly knew what they were buying. To potential victims in the future?) c) he brought unwelcome attention to Anguilla in general and to Offshore Information Services Ltd. in particular. (Vince's mention that the whole island had read the story suggests something to this.) d) he violated some particular clause of his service agreement with Offshore Information Services Ltd. >From Vince's homepage (http://online.offshore.com.ai/) "Could You Use a Virtual Presence Offshore? Do you have an offshore corporation and need an offshore web site? If your offshore corporation does business from offshore is it tax free? Is your country trying to censor the Internet? Can talking about abortion on the net get you in trouble? Are they censoring information about an ex-president in your country? Are your political views suppressed where you live? Is Amway the only multi-level-marketing company allowed in your country?" Now I read from this that Vince is encouraging "multi-level-marketing companies" to use his service. Am I wrong on this? Another name for this, commonly used, is "pyramid scheme." Or "Ponzi scheme." There are many summaries of MLM on the Net. Here's one, from http://www.best.com/~vandruff/mlm1.html : (begin quote) "For most MLMs, the product is really a mere diversion from the real profit-making dynamic. To anyone familiar with MLMs, the previous discussion (which focused so much on the fact that MLMs are "doomed by design" to reach market saturation and thus put the people who are legitimately trying to sell the product into a difficult situation) may seem to miss the point. The product or service may well be good, and it might oversaturate at some point, but let's get serious. The product is not the incentive to join an MLM. Otherwise people might have shown an interest in selling this particular product or service before in the real world. The product is the excuse to attempt to legitimate the real money-making engine. It's "the cover." "Intuitively, we all know what is really going on with MLMs. Just don't use the word "pyramid"! ""You see, if you can convince 10 people that everyone needs this product or service, even though they aren't buying similar products available in the market, and they can convince 10 people, and so on, that's how you make the real money. And as long as you sell to a few people along the way, it is all legal." Maybe. . . ." (end quote) Now, personally, and from a libertarian free-market free-choice perspective, I have no problem with pyramid schemes. I think of them as examples of evolution in action, like gambling. But I rather suspect that setting up a pyramid scheme in the towns of Anguilla would generate reaction by the authorities. (To be sure, certain MLM enterprises escape prosecution in the U.S., some get closed down...I have no idea which would be acceptable to the Anguillan authorities and which would go too far.) Why do I mention all this stuff? Why focus on Vince's invitation for MLMs to set up shop on his service? This should be clear. Operating a pyramid scheme is arguably more a clearcut case of "fraud" than selling pieces of paper to willing buyers. The items in Vince's list are certainly more consistent (which is good) with what we expect "data havens" to support. I just can't square the name, "Offshore Information Services Ltd.," (which is also good), and the list I quoted above with Vince's recent comments about wanting "clean" businesses! It seems from his recent comments that he wants nice, simple "widget makers" to offer nice, simple, legal-in-all-jurisdictions "tax avoiders." When I asked if his site would accept or tolerate "Let's kill the Queen" screeds, he replied "Not acceptable. This is not the market I am after. I don't see the profit in it." Well, as Steve Martin used to say, "Ex-c-u-u-s-e me!" Namely, this appears to conflict directly with two of Vince's suggestions for why his site is attractive, namely: "Are they censoring information about an ex-president in your country? Are your political views suppressed where you live?" Suggestions that Brits ought to rise up and kill the monarchy are of course time-honored political expressions, common in Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and even in parts of Merry Old England herself. This has even happened in the past. And a certain Iranian exile, living in Paris in the 1970s, routinely called for the killing of the Shah. I imagine Khomeini would've had his Anguilla account revoked. "Not acceptable. This is not the market I am after. I don't see the profit in it." I'm sorry to be so harsh to Vince and his fledgling service. But we have a duty (to the themes of our list) to call a spade a spade. A nominal data haven which invites customers to do the things Vince describes in his home page, but then which cuts and runs when the heat is applied....well, this is not a good thing. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From rpowell at algorithmics.com Tue Aug 13 17:22:37 1996 From: rpowell at algorithmics.com (Robin Powell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:22:37 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96Aug13.165923edt.20481@janus.algorithmics.com> >>>>> In article , Simon Spero writes: > In the UK they now use cameras to deter speeding; the cameras are > triggered by vehicles passing by which exceed the speed-limit, so in > theory it's only naughty people who get photographed. Interestingly > enough, there are far more places with camera warning signs than there > are actual cameras; the actual cameras are moved around at random. Even > though most of the time there isn't a camera there, almost everbody > seemed to slow down in the marked areas; probably because there's almost > 100% chance of being caught if there is a camera there. In Ontario, they tried this on some of the major highways. The most interesting thing about it was that it was proved time and time again that the technology was not up to snuff: there was an almost 0% chance of being caught. When the license plate wasn't obscured or unreadable (which it usually was) the computerized mailing system made some stupid mistake that allowed the person to get off if they challenged it. The interesting thing is that the project was scrapped for these reasons when the next government came in, but studies showed that it _succeeded_ in lowering peoples speed limits. I personally drove consistantly about 20-40km over the speed limit while this was in effect, cuz I knew it sucked, but apparently I was in the minorty. -Robin From rollo at artvark.com Tue Aug 13 17:27:20 1996 From: rollo at artvark.com (rollo at artvark.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:27:20 +0800 Subject: cypher-illiteracy Message-ID: David Lesher or Mike Duvos or somebody said, Re: FPGAs and Heat (Re: Paranoid Musings) > That's one of the things that killed Thinking Machines. It turned out > that a standard supercomputer with PIM chips for memory could give the > same performance for less money. See: http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/beuwolf/beuwolf.html I had a bit of difficulty connecting with the URL, finally discovering that it's "beowulf", not "beuwolf". So try: http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/beowulf/beowulf.html Also, re pipe bombs, attempting to access the URL http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html yields (as of Tue, Aug 13, 1996(13:31 MDT)) The requested URL /~m1lopez/pipe.html was not found on this server. Rollo Silver / Amygdala | e-mail: rollo at artvark.com 216M N. Pueblo Rd, #107 | Website: http://www.artvark.com/artvark/ Taos, NM 87571 USA | Voice: 505-751-9601; FAX: 505-751-7507 From blancw at microsoft.com Tue Aug 13 17:38:39 1996 From: blancw at microsoft.com (Blanc Weber) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:38:39 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: >From: Bart Croughs > >You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the U.S. is worse >off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how can you proof that the US >isn't worse off when US capital moves abroad? ............................................................. You have to be able to imagine the advantages, and you can only imagine them when you have the background to understand the difference between having fewer choices rather than more, a limited market base rather than an open one full of unlimited opportunity, and the increased domestic tensions from frustrated consumers who are likely to set up blackmarkets as work-arounds to the lack of desired goods & services. Essentially, you have to want to see, and work for, the difference resulting from unprotected markets. I think people who put up a lot of objections are afraid and do not want any proof of their error. You'd have to hold their nose to the figures, and even then they might close their eyes.... .. Blanc > > > > > From winn at Infowar.Com Tue Aug 13 17:43:25 1996 From: winn at Infowar.Com (winn at Infowar.Com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:43:25 +0800 Subject: InfoWar Press Release Message-ID: <199608132059.QAA17393@mailhost.IntNet.net> Information Warfare: Electronic Civil Defense NCSA Press Release National Computer Security Association 10 South Courthouse Avenue Carlisle, PA 17013 For Information Contact: Kevin Stevens - PRESSMarketing/CommunicationsNCSA(717) 258-1816 ext. 224(717) 243-8642 Faxemail: kstevens at ncsa.com Robert Steele - SponsorChairman & CEOOpen Source Solutions(703) 242-1701(703) 242-1711 Faxemail:ceo at oss.net Winn Schwartau - SponsorPresident & CEOInterpact, Inc.(813) 393-6600(813) 393-6361 Faxemail:winn at infowar.com INFORMATION WARFARE: CONFERENCE ON ELECTRONIC CIVIL DEFENSE September 4-5-6, 1996 Crystal Gateway Marriott Hotel 1700 Jeferson Davis Highway Arlington, VA 22202 August 14, 1996; Carlisle, PA. International security experts, including military general officers responsible for C3I, intelligence and security professionals from government agencies, and corporate information assurance and security executives will review state-of-the-art techniques in countermeasures necessary to combat information warfare attacks against the information infrastructures of the United States and allied nations. Leaders from industry, government and the international scene will also discuss policy options for defense as well as response to attacks. Information Warfare is likely to influence both military operations other than war (OOTW), and the violent peace with which both law enforcement and corporate security professionals must concern themselves. Electronic Civil Defense for the 21st Century is the focus of this conference. Information Warfare represents a direct threat to governments, financial and business information systems of corporations and private businesses, and the personal privacy of ordinary citizens. Information Warfare is a relatively low cost method for less- developed nation-states or underground organizations and trans-national gangs to acquire technology, along with tactical and strategic economic information, from more-developed nations, governments, corporate/business entities, and individuals. Information Warfare is also a means for terrorists, criminals, or politically-motivated splinter groups to attack their enemies. Methods for launching Information Warfare attacks can be done anonymously and remotely, circumvent laws and detection, and employ an array of clandestine electronic and human intelligence techniques. Electronic Civil Defense is the guiding concept which unites all aspects of a nation�s information infrastructure into a unified mindset. It�s purpose is to prepare for, and where necessary, counteract the effects of organized and unorganized attempts on the part of individuals, terrorist elements, criminal enterprises, or rouge nations to subvert friendly nations, commercial institutions, and armed forces through malicious destruction of critical information systems assets such as banking, medical, or defense-related systems. The conference is sponsored by two internationally known experts: Mr. Winn Schwartau (author of INFORMATION WARFARE: Chaos on the Electronic Superhighway); and, Mr. Robert Steele (author of various works which focus on the common theme of "Smart People, Dumb Nations: Bad Business"), and by the National Computer Security Association (NCSA), Carlisle, PA. Speakers include: Dr. Peter Tippett, President, NCSA; Steve Katz, CISO, Citibank; Sally Katzen, Administrator for Information and Regulatory Affairs, OMB; Drs. Anders Eriksson and Peter Wallstroem, National Defense Research Establishment, Dept. of Defense Analysis, Sweden; Dr. Leroy Pearce, Canada; General Jim McCarthy, USAF (Ret); Capt. Gregory Blackburn, Director of Information Warfare, OSD/C3I; Air Vice Marshall Brendon O�Loughlin, Australian Defense Attach�; Ron Eward, Martech, Inc.; Michael Logan, Federal Planning Associate, American Red Cross; William W. Donovan, FEMA; Greg Brown, IBM Business Recovery Services; Danielle Cailloux, Judge, Committee on Intelligence, Belgium; Col. Charles Dunlap, Judge Advocate, USAF; and many more experts. To obtain detailed program and registration information, send a fax with your return address, and fax number or email address to +(717) 243-8642 attn. Conference Registrar. Download information from NCSA Web Site at . Send email to , or if a CompuServe member, GO NCSA. PRESS ADVISORY: Press passes for the conference are available for $100 - luncheon included. Fax or email requests for press passes to: Kevin Stevens, , Marketing/Communications, NCSA. Proof of press credentials, including photo identification, are required. <---- End Forwarded Message ----> Peace Winn Winn Schwartau - Interpact, Inc. Information Warfare and InfoSec V: 813.393.6600 / F: 813.393.6361 Winn at InfoWar.Com From pstira at escape.com Tue Aug 13 18:00:57 1996 From: pstira at escape.com (pstira at escape.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:00:57 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For anybody with interest in this happening in the U.S., please note that such a practice (cameras and speed tracking devices, resulting in tickets being sent to the offending party) has been talked about, in somewhat closed circles, for years. A couple of years ago, 2600 Magazine ran an article listing most of the intersections with said devices. You can probably find it in their web page's index of back issues to pick it up. (http://www.2600.com). ObCrypto: Has anyone had any experience working with the Sidewinder Firewall and encryption and/or S/key or SecurID? What are drawbacks with using DESlogin with a firewall? or any encrypted transmissions for that matter? Is there anyway to bypass the obvious (sniffing). Thanks :) Millie, from her boyfriends account :) sfuze at sunspot.tiac.net "Remailers? Why bother? These days they'll find you no matter WHAT you use." From pstira at escape.com Tue Aug 13 18:11:30 1996 From: pstira at escape.com (pstira at escape.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:11:30 +0800 Subject: Anguilla / taxbomber - legality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have never, nor do I ever plan to, use any sort of documentation other than that which this police state shoves down my throat, but I do wish to point something QUITE OBVIOUS out, which is that MANY places sell camoflauge passports, including Delta Press, several "police supply catalogs", alternative book catalogs (Such as Eden Press, which I *know* some of you have used, judging by your explosives knowledge ;)), and so on. There is NO reason to single out taxbombers site for camo passports. They *do* have legitimate usages, including terrorist situations when you don't want to be identified as an American (on a plane hijacking for example, American's are "white meat", because our country understands and responds to public sympathy much more than most -- whatever THAT means). What I am trying to get at is that camoflauge passports are NOT illegal -- they are for countries which no longer exist and are unusable at customs, at any foreign checkin point, and so on. They have specific usages, and specific reasons for being cheap (running between 50 to 500 bucks, tops). The other passports? Go to most 2nd or third world countries, offer to buy so much land, and I'd be surprised if you don't walk away with some sort of official documentation. There's a difference between being a broker (which it is my understanding taxbomber is) and being a forger or smuggler. But then, I do not know the parties in question and can only make assumptions. Loompanics has several books about getting foreign passports. for a bunch of people who do not care for the lack of freedom in encryption, privacy, etc, you sure seem like (pardon my phrasing) hard-asses when it comes to other peoples much of the time... :) What's that saying about liberty not going away all at once, but being nibbled away, for expedience and by parts? Millie, from her boyfriends account. (if you have a beef with me, send it to sfuze at sunspot.tiac.net -- otherwise, have a nice day :)) From pstira at escape.com Tue Aug 13 18:14:43 1996 From: pstira at escape.com (pstira at escape.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:14:43 +0800 Subject: Massively parallel carbon-unit-based voice pattern matching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This CAN be infiltrated. (1) take into account line noise. (2) take into account recordings, cut and paste, and hell, audio programs are INCREDIBLE nowadays. (3) take into account problems like illness, which changes voice, inflection, etc., like puberty (hehe, no comment), like just about anything which requires some range or variability. This seems to be about as secure, remotely, as NFS . Ta, Millie, from my b/friends accout. bug me, not him: sfuze at tiac.net From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 13 18:31:32 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:31:32 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <199608132155.OAA09738@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:27 AM 8/13/96 -6, Peter Trei wrote: > >Tim writes: > >> I don't see how "remote scanning" of the population at large, without >> probable cause, is much different from the cops listening in from a >> distance with parabolic antennas. Both cases involve detection of signals >> emitted from the target. And yet such long-distance interception is not >> allowed without a warrant. > >I vaguely remember another possibly relevant precedent, where a >judge ruled that a warrant was required before a thermal imager >could be used to look at a house suspected by the police of >being a (pot) grow house. >Peter Trei >trei at process.com There was just such a decision in Washington state about a year ago, as I recall. However, as I recall there has been a contradictory decision elsewhere, so the law isn't clear. It seems to me that the main problem with such "evidence" is not the search itself, but the interpretation of the results: Having a hot house isn't a crime, and indeed it was not practically detectable before IR viewers. And an IR viewer only tells you the house is hot; it doesn't say why its hot. Apparently, when the "justice system" gets a new toy, it subtly adjusts its standards to use that toy, regardless of minor issues such as right and wrong. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From jgrasty at gate.net Tue Aug 13 18:46:09 1996 From: jgrasty at gate.net (Joey Grasty) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:46:09 +0800 Subject: South Florida Cypherpunks Meeting Reminder Message-ID: <199608132238.SAA52914@osceola.gate.net> Y'all: The South Florida Cypherpunks will meet at Hops Grill & Bar in Boynton Beach, FL on Saturday, August 17 at 2:00 PM. As always, our meeting place is at a microbrewery, and this one has some very fine brews. Jim Ray will show off his Snake Oil bottle, signed by Phil Zimmermann, who wrote PGP. I will also hand out copies of my WinSock Remailer to anyone who wants to check it out. Other than that, we have no agenda, other than discussing cypherpunkology and drinking some fine brews. Directions: Take I-95 to Boynton Beach Blvd and go west. When you get to Congress Ave., turn right (north) and go one stoplight until you get to Old Boynton Beach Blvd. Turn left (west) and go behind Longhorn Steakhouse and turn right into the parking lot behind Longhorn Steakhouse. Hops is just north of Longhorn on Congress Ave. Hops Grill & Bar 545 N. Congress Ave. Boynton Beach, FL. In addition, the Cypherpunks Brewmaster, Jim Ray, is brewing up a special "cypherpunks summer dark" brew for the meeting. (I sampled some of the brew before bottling, and BBBUUURP! it was good.) We will enjoy his fine beer at my house following the meeting. I'll pass out maps to my house in Deerfield Beach for anyone who wants to go. Please send me a note if you plan to attend so that I can alert the restaurant on how many will attend. Send me your key and fingerprint for keysigning if it hasn't been signed by any cypherpunks before. Regards, -- Joey Grasty jgrasty at gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes] jgrasty at pts.mot.com [work -- designing pagers] "Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann PGP = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13 93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7 From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 13 18:51:01 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:51:01 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments In-Reply-To: <9608131541.AA26416@sso-austin.sps.mot.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Ben Combee wrote: > Yes, it has already happened, although in a slightly different > context. The Georgia Tech campus dormatories got wired with Ethernet > back in 1994, and there was quite a rush by the sizable geek The graduate residences at Stanford were built with 10Base2 in 1986, and 50% of the undergrad dorms were wired with 10BaseT by 1993. So there. > population to get dorm rooms in the buildings slated to get > installation first. It worked out quite well, especially the privacy > aspects, as the dorm routers encrypted all packets so only the > intended Ethernet node could receive it (at least that is what they > said). The "secure hubs" at GATech don't do encryption -- no way could that be done at wire speed. What they do is fill the data portion of the Ethernet packet with nulls. Everyone gets to see the source and destination MAC address and length of every packet, but only the recipient (or a very clever spoofer -- most of the "secure hubs" on the market have a few vulnerabilities) gets the data. If you run a packet sniffer, all you get are CRC errors (in order to maintain wire speed, the non-destination ports don't compute one). As far as real-world geek apartments go, I heard of one in Manhattan that worked exactly as described. I don't know whether they run "secure hubs." Presumably they would -- I can't think of a major manufacturer's manageable 10BaseT hub that lacks MAC address lockout features. OTOH, I've heard tell that several of the residential coax experiments run promiscuously. Everything your neighbor does online, you can see with the right software. -rich From pstira at escape.com Tue Aug 13 18:52:38 1996 From: pstira at escape.com (pstira at escape.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:52:38 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments In-Reply-To: <9608131541.AA26416@sso-austin.sps.mot.com> Message-ID: Hmm... My old school (Stevens Institute of Technology) did this LONG before 94... Before 90, in fact :) Just a point of reference. (brag brag brag)... Incidentally, there was a REASON it wasn't a neccessarily good idea -- the dropout/flunkout rate was astronomical from everyone netting long before netting was pop-oo-lah. :) Millie. sfuze at tiac.net write me at the above address, not the one this is written from :) From sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si Tue Aug 13 18:53:46 1996 From: sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si (sasa.roskar at uni-lj.si) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:53:46 +0800 Subject: Changing the headers Message-ID: <009A6D03.6A10B362.18@uni-lj.si> Can someone please tell me how you can change the From: header in the email? I know it's possible... my computer teacher used to do it all the time... but how? (unfortunatelly his explanation was to hard to comprehend for me at the time). Thanks a lot... And in case it helps... I'm using a VAX.. regular text account. If it makes any difference. Doesn't it have something to do woth getting into the mail port? Roki From mccoy at communities.com Tue Aug 13 19:03:51 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:03:51 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: photographed license plates Message-ID: rpowell at algorithmics.com writes: >Simon Spero writes: > > In the UK they now use cameras to deter speeding [...] > > In Ontario, they tried this on some of the major highways. The most > interesting thing about it was that it was proved time and time again > that the technology was not up to snuff: there was an almost 0% chance > of being caught. When the license plate wasn't obscured or unreadable > (which it usually was) the computerized mailing system made some > stupid mistake that allowed the person to get off if they challenged > it. One problem with using such systems in the US (I have no idea about traffic laws in Ontario so maybe this was the loophole you mentioned) is that even with a perfect shot of the license plate the system only identifies a car, not a driver. Speeding tickets are given to drivers, not necessarily to the owner of the speeding car. Here in the states the easy challenge to such a ticket would be "it was not me driving when that photo was taken" and the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that you were the driver. Since some states do not require front license plates the cameras take shots of the tail end of the car, not the best angle for identifying drivers. jim From secure at commtouch.com Tue Aug 13 19:11:44 1996 From: secure at commtouch.com (Pronto Secure Beta Feedback) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:11:44 +0800 Subject: Replace Key Message-ID: <199608132251.SAA00435@spirit.hks.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Type Bits/KeyID Date User ID pub 1024/998463CD 1996/04/01 Pronto Secure Beta - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3i mQCNAzFf7jAAAAEEAMI8wSoVVRRv0Sr68myImRaQH9N/uvZ2agoJHgxk70NYkQhp BD72rz/7lO4HK51pe/9kTTFsZPAUoTG+xdWAgSrclG1auTjHQPnb/9m/H4SYKi4n hcNDrq3HmbaHYZjsJGAUHdWV7Kj82z1ad39nCS2yjuh396RcpSbCxfqZhGPNAAUR tClQcm9udG8gU2VjdXJlIEJldGEgPHNlY3VyZUBjb21tdG91Y2guY29tPokAlQMF EDFgONAmwsX6mYRjzQEB7M8D/0yjy/7i6ICm9Qa6ff8skvnZdKrPJYqgnOg14Nx5 2DKGbSAbwnvq94UaQ0tCqsQNrKRO0pWOnBIOT++3oibKl39tTi/uQV4vtSPvSvia xUp4emtY/hhhls7Nbv0TcHPysjT8cp4vtRk7zpFbCsNIKIk7tAWF3U7OSEc/sLCg ixxW =Ovh1 - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBMhEG2SoZzwIn1bdtAQG3xQF/Vlb4Cy/l1JVTHBiMZ0AWl+TuhjjjRRFz T3mDP76QBCPrmftAA68a1krz0wOl6Dh6 =1HZk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vince at offshore.com.ai Tue Aug 13 19:21:01 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:21:01 +0800 Subject: Anguilla / taxbomber - legality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, wrote: > What I > am trying to get at is that camoflauge passports are NOT illegal -- They may not be illegal in the USA (yet?) but my lawyer says they are illegal in Anguilla. This is a different country. We do have our own laws. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From gt4436c at prism.gatech.edu Tue Aug 13 19:48:54 1996 From: gt4436c at prism.gatech.edu (Jeremy Mineweaser) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:48:54 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960813234024.00c5ebcc@glc20.residence.gatech.edu> At 10:41 AM 8/13/96 -0500, you wrote: >* I can see it now. Apartments full of geeks because the apartments >* were originally built with 100BaseX to each place and a T3 in the >* basement going direct to the local ISP. > >Yes, it has already happened, although in a slightly different >context. The Georgia Tech campus dormatories got wired with Ethernet >back in 1994, and there was quite a rush by the sizable geek >population to get dorm rooms in the buildings slated to get >installation first. It worked out quite well, especially the privacy >aspects, as the dorm routers encrypted all packets so only the >intended Ethernet node could receive it (at least that is what they >said). > >So, in this case it was only 10BaseT and gatech.edu as the ISP, but it >still was very neat. Thanks to the Olympics, Georgia Tech now has 100% Ethernet availability in its dormitories. Currently the system utilizes a fiber-optic campus backbone with network hardware in each building providing a 10BaseT port to each student. Work is underway to install ATM hardware and upgrade ports to 100Mb/s networking technology. Jeremy L. Mineweaser | GCS/E d->-- s:- a--- C++(+++)$ ULC++(++++)>$ P+>++$ gt4436c at prism.gatech.edu | L+>++ E-(---) W++ N+ !o-- K+>++ w+(++++) O- M-- | V-(--) PS+(--) PE++ Y++>$ PGP++>+++$ t+() 5 X+ R+() *ai*vr*vx*crypto* | tv(+) b++>+++ DI+(++) D+ G++ e>+++ h-() r-@ !y- From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 13 19:51:16 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:51:16 +0800 Subject: The Ostrich Method of dealing with ITAR: PGP from OnNet Message-ID: <199608132359.QAA27531@infinity.c2.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- This message is sent from an evaluation version of FTP OnNet32 2.0, which has PGP- compatible encryption built-in. This software is distributed from http://www.ftp.com/mkt_info/onnet32/mail/mail_dl.htm which doesn't have a hell of a lot as technical enforcement of ITAR goes. You may download the software through the Anonymizer, www.anonymizer.com, if you wish. Unfuckingbelievable. By the way, encrypting and decrypting large messages with OnNet is about 10 times faster than with Private Idaho/PGP for DOS on my P6-200 running NT 3.51. The user interface is pretty good, too. Somebody pinch me. - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.9 iQBVAgUBMhEXDJNcNyVVy0jxAQHDXQH/aQSrU3ZqhOJXGanSDnS/o+DdsH2GMKcI 6A8J3cGZAZ3ESK30GxwozdHpBjJRHIww4i/rrxK9aBNpzm/vQnovXg== =8dGx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wb8foz at nrk.com Tue Aug 13 20:18:40 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:18:40 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: <199608130335.UAA03631@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608132339.TAA01485@nrk.com> I note those plastic cover for plates "to keep them clean" seem to be more & more popular. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From bdolan at use.usit.net Tue Aug 13 20:29:35 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:29:35 +0800 Subject: RANT re: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > > In my experience, Americans are loathe to invest money overseas > unless it is highly profitable. The reason is obvious. They > understand--or think they understand--the rules here. In > historical terms, US investments have been more stable and safer > than investments overseas. (Which is why, by the way, that the > US is the worlds largest tax haven in the world, but I digress.) > Which is why it is possible to be angry about NAFTA and the Mexican bailout without being a protectionist. Why should I pay taxes to my government so it can protect capital investments in Mexico, thereby reducing one of my selling points as an American worker? ... and while I'm ranting... Can somebody explain why: 1. Good jobs of the future are knowledge jobs which require little capital investment. and 2. We need a capital gains tax cut to encourage capital investment to stimulate the growth of good jobs of the future. ? bd From sandfort at crl.com Tue Aug 13 20:56:05 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:56:05 +0800 Subject: INVITATION Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, Below, is the invitation to my next costume party. Everyone on Cypherpunks is invited. I hope to see a lot of you there. The last party was a HUGE success; this one should be even better. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'M NOT 50 YET! The Pleasure of Your Company is Cordially Requested at the: Second Occasional Anarcho-Dilettante Pick-Your-Own-Damned-Theme Masquerade Ball And Hallowe'en Rehearsal 7:00 PM FRIDAY THE 13TH September 1996 650 Kenwyn Road (at McKinley) Oakland, CA Lots of stuff happened on September 13th. We're not going to tell you which one to commemorate. That's up to you. Check out the birthdays and historical events listed below. Pick one or go with something else. Your choice. But no matter what theme you pick, it's still a masquerade ball, so you MUST wear a costume (or at least a mask). NO EXCEPTIONS THE ENTERTAINMENT At 8:00pm there will be a Dance Recital featuring Rainbeau, Gracie, Tish, Blythe, Michelle and special guests. You DO NOT want to miss this. (Please, adults only. We regret that our house is very unsuitable for children.) DOOR PRIZES Around Midnight, there will be a drawing for valuable and/or unique Door Prizes. (You must be present to win.) THE EATS I'm poorer this time around, so don't expect a complete buffet as with past parties. There will be some snacks and soft drinks, but you are encouraged to bring things to share. As always, BYOB RSVP Whether or not you plan to attend, we need to hear from you. Please give one of your hosts a call so we can plan on your presence OR your absence. Invited guests may bring other persons with prior approval of the hosts. This means if there are people you would like to bring, call a host to get permission for each of those people. THE HOSTS Head Anarchist in Charge, Sandy Sandfort 510-839-3441/sandfort at crl.com House Hosts with the Most, Gracie & Zarkov 510-832-2044/emyrt at aol.com Communications Officer, Sameer Parekh 510-547-3617/sameer at c2.org SEPTEMBER 13 IN HISTORY Birthdays: 1755--Oliver Evans, pioneered high-pressure steam engine. 1766--Samuel Wilson ("Uncle Sam"). 1851--Walter Reed, US Army physician (yellow fever work). 1857--Milton Hershey, candy maker. 1860--General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, hero of WW I. 1876--Sherwood Anderson, US author ("Winesburg Ohio"). 1894--J.B. Priestley, English critic, playwright, and novelist ("Lost Empires"). 1905--Claudette Colbert (Claudette Chauchoin), actress. 1910--Chu Berry, saxophonist. 1916--Ronald Dahl, author ("Charlie and the Chocolate Factory"). 1925--Mel Torme, singer. 1928--Ernest L. Boyer, educator. 1928--Robert Indiana, artist. 1937--Fred Silverman, TV producer. 1938--Judith Martin, "Miss Manners", author, journalist. 1939--Larry Speakes, former White House spokesman. 1944--Jacqueline Bisset, actress ("Rich and Famous"). 1944--Peter Cetera, singer and songwriter. 1948--Nell Carter, actress. 1962--Cypherpunk, "Lucky Green." On this day... 122--Building of Hadrian's Wall began. 1592--Michel de Montaigne, French essayist, died. 1759--British defeated French at Abraham near Quebec City. 1759--James Wolfe, British General, died. 1788--Congress authorized the 1st US national election. 1788--New York City selected as location for US government. 1789--US received its first loan. 1803--Commodore John Barry, First American commodore who fought in the Revolutionary War, died. 1814--Battle over Ft. McHenry which inspired "The Star Spangled Banner." 1826--Rhinoceros 1st seen in NYC. 1899--1st automobile fatality. 1943--Chiang Kai-Shek became president of China. 1946--Ted Williams hit his only inside-the-park homer. 1946--Host Sandy Sandfort was -6 days old. 1950--70,000 UN troops landed at Inchon harbor (Korea). 1971--Attica State Prison stormed. 1983--Menachem Begin resigned as Israeli Prime Minister. 1988--Hurricane Gilbert hit the Caribbean. Another version of this invitation and a street map can be found at: http://www.c2.org/party/masquerade P.S. We love you so much, we want to make sure you do not miss any of our party. Therefore, you will be fined a Sprint fee (10 cents a minute, "one minute, two minutes...) for each minute you arrives after 8:00pm. The party starts at 7:00, so you get an hour for free. The late fee money will be used to defray costs. (We're not kidding. At the last party, more than $100 was collected.) From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Tue Aug 13 20:56:34 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:56:34 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases Message-ID: <01I88ETCWWHC9JD663@mbcl.rutgers.edu> A: How possible is it to insulate cars from these effects? B: If it can't be insulated from with reasonable levels of effort, it would appear to be perfectly usable against cop cars. If the emitter is in a transparent baloon 1000 feet up, I doubt they're going to be able to track back to the user. -Allen From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 13 20:58:32 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:58:32 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: <9608131856.AA05229@spirit.aud.alcatel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Daniel R. Oelke wrote: > If foil or metal mesh would block it, then many recently built houses > would be already set. Usually that 1/2 - 1 inch styrofoam used > on almost all exterior walls has a reflective layer of foil to help > keep the heat/cold out. Take a course in Tempest practices. Casual residential practice implemented by construction workers do not a vault make. From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Tue Aug 13 21:06:05 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:06:05 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments In-Reply-To: <9608131541.AA26416@sso-austin.sps.mot.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Ben Combee wrote: > installation first. It worked out quite well, especially the privacy > aspects, as the dorm routers encrypted all packets so only the > intended Ethernet node could receive it (at least that is what they > said). I'm not familiar with the GA Tech network, but they probably didn't "encrypt at the router." They most likely used concentrators which would send a the original packet only to the concentrator port registered for the MAC (layer 2) address involved, and sent a packet with the payload overwritten with "junk" out the other ports, to comply with ethernet rules whereby all devices "see" the packet. Not encryption at all, but it does defeat sniffing (on the local segment only) if configured in this manner. - r.w. From cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Tue Aug 13 21:12:46 1996 From: cdaemon at goblin.punk.net (Checkered Daemon) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:12:46 +0800 Subject: RANT re: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608140124.SAA14313@goblin.punk.net> Brad Dolan asks: > ... and while I'm ranting... > > Can somebody explain why: > > 1. Good jobs of the future are knowledge jobs which require little > capital investment. a) Knowledge jobs require tremendous capital investment, as in degrees, training, continual updating of skills, etc. If the knowledge worker cannot recoup these investment costs via a higher salary, she will not invest in the training. b) Knowlegde jobs require computers, automation equipment, etc. for the knowledge to be applied to in order to create wealth. These also require capital investment. c) As rote manufacturing jobs are replaced by "quasi-intelligent" machinery, human job focus switches to designing, caring for, and replacing those machines. Example: The ATM replaces the bank teller, requiring new jobs in ATM design, manufacturing, repair, and the control of the computer network in the back- ground. Good jobs of the future may be knowledge jobs, but they require tremendous capital investment, both by employee and employer. > 2. We need a capital gains tax cut to encourage capital investment to > stimulate the growth of good jobs of the future. In theory, this results in less spending and more saving. More saving results in more investment capital (instead of spending on consumption), lowering borrowing costs and resulting in business expansion, stimulating both hiring and salaries to grow (at least until the Federal Reserve gets into the act). The second argument is that corporate earnings are actually taxed twice, once at the corporate level, and again when they are distributed to share-holders as either dividends or as capital gains. In actual practice, well, your mileage may vary. For further info, see any Macro Economics 101 textbook. -- Checkered Daemon cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Delirium: There must be a word for it ... the thing that lets you know that TIME is happening. IS there a word? Sandman: CHANGE. Delirium: Oh. I was AFRAID of that. From bakillin at iAmerica.net Tue Aug 13 21:18:04 1996 From: bakillin at iAmerica.net (Brett Killins) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:18:04 +0800 Subject: addenendum Message-ID: <321143D0.7115@iamerica.net> The link on http://www.gatech.edu/lcc/idt/Miscellaneous/Glass_Houses/Organizations/Cypherpunks.html that points to the hotwired article on the cypherpunks has changed from http://www.hotwired.com/wired/1.2/features/cryptorebels.html to http://www.hotwired.com/wired/1.2/features/crypto.rebels.html. Or perhaps a typo? You may also want to include a link to http://www.hotwired.com/wired/1.2/features/crypto.rebels.sidebars.html Brett From mab at research.att.com Tue Aug 13 21:19:06 1996 From: mab at research.att.com (Matt Blaze) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:19:06 +0800 Subject: key escrow idea from David Satelin of MIT Lincoln Labs Message-ID: <199608140019.UAA04803@nsa.research.att.com> My comments included below Rivest's message. -matt ------- Forwarded Message Received: from amontillado.research.att.com (amontillado.research.att.com [135.104.21.154]) by nsa.research.att.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04438 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from research.research.att.com (research.att.com [135.104.117.5]) by amontillado.research.att.com (8.7.5/8.7) with SMTP id QAA24830 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from theory.lcs.mit.edu by research; Tue Aug 13 16:17:17 EDT 1996 Received: from swan.lcs.mit.edu by theory.lcs.mit.edu (5.65c/TOC-1.2S) id AA05040; Tue, 13 Aug 96 16:16:20 EDT From: rivest at theory.lcs.mit.edu (Ron Rivest) Received: by swan.lcs.mit.edu (5.65c/TOC-1.2C) id AA00335; Tue, 13 Aug 96 16:16:20 EDT Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 16:16:20 EDT Message-Id: <199608132016.AA00335 at swan.lcs.mit.edu> To: jim at rsa.com, gnu at toad.com, whitfield.diffie at eng.sun.com, mab at research.att.com, denning at cs.georgetown.edu Cc: staelin at ll.mit.edu, mld at hq.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Crypto Policy Variant Hi -- Here is another MIT professor's (Dave Staelin's) suggestion for a national crypto policy. I thought you might be interested in seeing it; given the difficulty of the debate, any variant, even if only slightly different from previous ones, should be considered. Feel free to pass this note around, or to post it... Here is Staelin's idea: (1) You can use any crypto you want, but you must keep a record of the crypto keys you used. (2) The government can ask for the crypto keys later, if they have a court order, just as they can ask for any of your other papers or documents. You must give the key(s) to them, just as you must turn over your private papers in such a situation. (There would have to be an appropriate penalty for losing the key...) The attractive feature of this proposal is that it puts encrypted communications in the same category as private papers; the government is required to give notice to (at least one of) the affected individual(s) _before_ the search can be undertaken. This cures what is in my mind a defect in the current wire-tapping laws. DISCUSSION In a variant of Staelin's proposal (my twist) you could append to each encrypted message an encrypted form of the message key. The encryption could be with the public-key of a trusted third party who will not (and legally may not) reveal the message key without notifying you first (or ensuring that you have been appropriately served with the corresponding warrant). For example, the ACLU might be such a TTP. This protects the government's right to access and protects the individual from the penalties (or benefits) of losing the key. This procedure is technically simple; what is more complex is ensuring that the TTP's are appropriately registered and protected from undue government influence. The use of such a TTP would in any case be optional; the communicants need not use a TTP if they understand their obligation to keep the crypto keys around for some period of time afterwards. In Staelin's proposal government gains access to the communications, but does not gain "real-time access" as desired by the FBI. This loss may be tolerable, given the benefit obtained (forcing access to be made in accordance with the Constitutional requirements for notification before search). The use of wiretapping encrypted communications as a preventive measure might be severely limited, but its use as a means of gathering evidence to force a conviction would be preserved. For international communications, each communicant might be required to use a TTP that is bound to honor the laws of his country (which TTP to be used should be the choice of the communicant). It may be seem a bit strange to force individuals to keep around information (keys) that they no longer really need. However, this is more-or-less the case for financial records right now. CONCLUSION The fundamental idea is to give the government a right to access encrypted communication in return for a guarantee that access may not be obtained until there is BOTH proper legal authorization AND proper prior notice to (at least one of) the communicants. Is this workable?? ------- End of Forwarded Message [Matt's comments follow] The requirement to store your keys for some period of time would, I think, be very unusal, legaly. As far as I know there are virtually no records that an ordinary individual is required to keep today under criminal penalty of law. One has to keep tax records if one expects to be able to document deductions if audited, but for people without deductions, no records need be kept (and even those who do but who destroy their records risk having their deductions disallowed, but face criminal penalties only if the govenment can prove you intended fraud. Not having records does not by itself constitute fraud, as far as I know). According to the original message: The attractive feature of this proposal is that it puts encrypted communications in the same category as private papers; the government is required to give notice to (at least one of) the affected individual(s) _before_ the search can be undertaken. This cures what is in my mind a defect in the current wire-tapping laws. Yes and no. True, it makes it impossible to recover communication without the knowledge of one party. But it still goes well beyond the norms for private papers. The vast majority of private papers are, according to the law, just that - private. One is under no obligation to maintain "private papers" in any particular manner or for any period of time. Only very limited types of private papers (none for most people) have to be maintained at all. While, in general, the government can get a court order to force one to turn over documents that exist, one is not obligated to keep documents that are otherwise of no use in order to be ready should a court order happen sometime in the future. One can burn one's old love letters any time one feels like it. But enough philosophy. There are technical reasons to consider this proposal a bad idea. The main technical problem with the Staelin proposal is the requirement that the user maintain a large store of no longer useful but highly sensitive data in a secure manner for a period of time. This introduces an obvious storage burden (how does an encrypting phone or network connection store old keys?) that would make many kinds of otherwise simple encryption hardware and software far more complex and difficult to design and expensive to implement and operate. Consider a secure phone (like the TSD 3600 or STU III). A critical design feature of these devices is that they never have to emit secret keys outside their internal security boundaries. Consider, too, software that runs on PCs and workstations. Ordinarily, software that establishes, say, a secure Internet connection has no need to store any secret associated with the session anywhere. And that's a good thing - the file systems on most computers aren't secure enough to store keys, so including the key storage feature required by the Staelin scheme would entail implementing some kind of secure storage system that isn't otherwise needed by the application. Even if the design complexity is solved, there is the problem of maintaining the stored keys in a secure manner, introducing what would in most cases be a more serious security vulnerability than any other aspect of the application (since the keys would continue to exist long after the secure session has ended). Under the Staelin proposal, the design, implementation, and use of encryption software and hardware becomes much more complex, so complex that I honestly don't think we know how to do it. I touch on these points in discussing key escrow in general in my Senate testimony, ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/testiomny.txt From cjs at netcom.com Tue Aug 13 21:28:03 1996 From: cjs at netcom.com (cjs) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:28:03 +0800 Subject: Whoa there, speederpunks! WAS: Police prepair stunning end.. In-Reply-To: <199608131643.JAA19738@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <199608140140.SAA28926@netcom21.netcom.com> Whoa there, speederpunks! I've let a couple of these messages go past me without comment, but I think I'd like to throw in a couple cents on this one. 1) I'd like to assure y'all, as someone who has had a run in with a couple bad alternators, that loosing electrical power will not cause you to go careening off the side of the road. Granted, you might be a in fix if your a nine year old kid running from the cops in a '64 volvo, or some other arian super-car, and the power steering went out. But if that were to ever happen, it would be because you ran over a few curbs at ludicrus speed -- not because Johnny Flatfoot hosed ya down with an EM cannon. 2) Someone was curious why they don't just throw some high voltage cables across road and wait for the fire works. Well, this is a no-brainer too. In order for that to work, you sorta have to get me to do two things 1) drive down your street and 2) drive over your wires. Assuming that I have a reson for not being caught, I might not be too cooperative at doing that either. And of course the last consideration is that the guy putting down the wires might not get out of the way fast enough -- y'all come down to texas and ask the armadillo's why thats a problem. 3) It is really pointless to bicker about this. To quote from a not so popular Mark Hamel flick, "Radio, kid. Faster then rubber." Use the force, luke. 4) I would think that y'all would be happy that someone is doing all the tough work of constructing these devices. I think we all know that the first space cadet to haul one of these things into Kabrini Park is gonna loose it. From there its just a matter of time until every speed racer has one of these "inventions" mounted on his car and junior is wanting to order one from the 'Amazing Devices' ad in the back of Popular Science (in fact, I think you already can). From there, I think that a practical and portable EM cannon could become the HOT urban warfare weapon of the next decade. Bonnie and Clyde are going to look like amateurs when any rank and file with a mortage can buzz the bank and take them off-line for a day. Not to mention what you could do to a hospital, police station, air plane, traffic signal, grocery store, U-FO, and anything else that uses 1s and 0s. All safely and anonymously I might add -- a concealed EM cannon isn't gonna draw any attention, even when you fire it. Thats my two cents, Bye y'all. Christopher From mab at research.att.com Tue Aug 13 21:28:51 1996 From: mab at research.att.com (Matt Blaze) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:28:51 +0800 Subject: resend: key escrow idea from David Staelin of MIT Lincoln Labs Message-ID: <199608140124.VAA04963@nsa.research.att.com> My first send of this message was garbled and truncated. Here it is again. Sorry. My comments included below Rivest's message. -matt ------- Forwarded Message Received: from amontillado.research.att.com (amontillado.research.att.com [135.104.21.154]) by nsa.research.att.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04438 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from research.research.att.com (research.att.com [135.104.117.5]) by amontillado.research.att.com (8.7.5/8.7) with SMTP id QAA24830 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from theory.lcs.mit.edu by research; Tue Aug 13 16:17:17 EDT 1996 Received: from swan.lcs.mit.edu by theory.lcs.mit.edu (5.65c/TOC-1.2S) id AA05040; Tue, 13 Aug 96 16:16:20 EDT From: rivest at theory.lcs.mit.edu (Ron Rivest) Received: by swan.lcs.mit.edu (5.65c/TOC-1.2C) id AA00335; Tue, 13 Aug 96 16:16:20 EDT Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 16:16:20 EDT Message-Id: <199608132016.AA00335 at swan.lcs.mit.edu> To: jim at rsa.com, gnu at toad.com, whitfield.diffie at eng.sun.com, mab at research.att.com, denning at cs.georgetown.edu Cc: staelin at ll.mit.edu, mld at hq.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Crypto Policy Variant Hi -- Here is another MIT professor's (Dave Staelin's) suggestion for a national crypto policy. I thought you might be interested in seeing it; given the difficulty of the debate, any variant, even if only slightly different from previous ones, should be considered. Feel free to pass this note around, or to post it... Here is Staelin's idea: (1) You can use any crypto you want, but you must keep a record of the crypto keys you used. (2) The government can ask for the crypto keys later, if they have a court order, just as they can ask for any of your other papers or documents. You must give the key(s) to them, just as you must turn over your private papers in such a situation. (There would have to be an appropriate penalty for losing the key...) The attractive feature of this proposal is that it puts encrypted communications in the same category as private papers; the government is required to give notice to (at least one of) the affected individual(s) _before_ the search can be undertaken. This cures what is in my mind a defect in the current wire-tapping laws. DISCUSSION In a variant of Staelin's proposal (my twist) you could append to each encrypted message an encrypted form of the message key. The encryption could be with the public-key of a trusted third party who will not (and legally may not) reveal the message key without notifying you first (or ensuring that you have been appropriately served with the corresponding warrant). For example, the ACLU might be such a TTP. This protects the government's right to access and protects the individual from the penalties (or benefits) of losing the key. This procedure is technically simple; what is more complex is ensuring that the TTP's are appropriately registered and protected from undue government influence. The use of such a TTP would in any case be optional; the communicants need not use a TTP if they understand their obligation to keep the crypto keys around for some period of time afterwards. In Staelin's proposal government gains access to the communications, but does not gain "real-time access" as desired by the FBI. This loss may be tolerable, given the benefit obtained (forcing access to be made in accordance with the Constitutional requirements for notification before search). The use of wiretapping encrypted communications as a preventive measure might be severely limited, but its use as a means of gathering evidence to force a conviction would be preserved. For international communications, each communicant might be required to use a TTP that is bound to honor the laws of his country (which TTP to be used should be the choice of the communicant). It may be seem a bit strange to force individuals to keep around information (keys) that they no longer really need. However, this is more-or-less the case for financial records right now. CONCLUSION The fundamental idea is to give the government a right to access encrypted communication in return for a guarantee that access may not be obtained until there is BOTH proper legal authorization AND proper prior notice to (at least one of) the communicants. Is this workable?? ------- End of Forwarded Message [Matt's comments follow] The requirement to store your keys for some period of time would, I think, be very unusal, legaly. As far as I know there are virtually no records that an ordinary individual is required to keep today under criminal penalty of law. One has to keep tax records if one expects to be able to document deductions if audited, but for people without deductions, no records need be kept (and even those who do but who destroy their records risk having their deductions disallowed, but face criminal penalties only if the govenment can prove you intended fraud. Not having records does not by itself constitute fraud, as far as I know). According to the original message: The attractive feature of this proposal is that it puts encrypted communications in the same category as private papers; the government is required to give notice to (at least one of) the affected individual(s) _before_ the search can be undertaken. This cures what is in my mind a defect in the current wire-tapping laws. Yes and no. True, it makes it impossible to recover communication without the knowledge of one party. But it still goes well beyond the norms for private papers. The vast majority of private papers are, according to the law, just that - private. One is under no obligation to maintain "private papers" in any particular manner or for any period of time. Only very limited types of private papers (none for most people) have to be maintained at all. While, in general, the government can get a court order to force one to turn over documents that exist, one is not obligated to keep documents that are otherwise of no use in order to be ready should a court order happen sometime in the future. One can burn one's old love letters any time one feels like it. But enough philosophy. There are technical reasons to consider this proposal a bad idea. The main technical problem with the Staelin proposal is the requirement that the user maintain a large store of no longer useful but highly sensitive data in a secure manner for a period of time. This introduces an obvious storage burden (how does an encrypting phone or network connection store old keys?) that would make many kinds of otherwise simple encryption hardware and software far more complex and difficult to design and expensive to implement and operate. Consider a secure phone (like the TSD 3600 or STU III). A critical design feature of these devices is that they never have to emit secret keys outside their internal security boundaries. Consider, too, software that runs on PCs and workstations. Ordinarily, software that establishes, say, a secure Internet connection has no need to store any secret associated with the session anywhere. And that's a good thing - the file systems on most computers aren't secure enough to store keys, so including the key storage feature required by the Staelin scheme would entail implementing some kind of secure storage system that isn't otherwise needed by the application. Even if the design complexity is solved, there is the problem of maintaining the stored keys in a secure manner, introducing what would in most cases be a more serious security vulnerability than any other aspect of the application (since the keys would continue to exist long after the secure session has ended). Under the Staelin proposal, the design, implementation, and use of encryption software and hardware becomes much more complex, so complex that I honestly don't think we know how to do it. I touch on these points in discussing key escrow in general in my Senate testimony, ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/testimony.txt . While Ron's twist decreases some of the burden on the user it eliminates the main benefit of the Staelin proposal - that one cannot obtain cleartext without the knowledge of at least one party. The TTP could be compelled (as the phone company is now for regular wiretaps) to keep the request secret, under court order. And the design complexity problem doesn't even go away - in fact, it gets worse, since now there's a protocol with a third party involved. -matt From wb8foz at nrk.com Tue Aug 13 21:35:21 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:35:21 +0800 Subject: Police prepare stunning end for high-speed car chases In-Reply-To: <01I88ETCWWHC9JD663@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <199608140153.VAA01982@nrk.com> > > A: How possible is it to insulate cars from these effects? D I E S E L -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 21:35:32 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:35:32 +0800 Subject: India, Productivity, and Tropical Climes Message-ID: At 5:31 PM 8/13/96, Arun Mehta wrote: >At 13:15 11/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >Sorry, the response took a while: George Fernandes, who was the >industries minister at the time, is an acquaintance, so I thought >I'd get the story from the horse's mouth. Thanks for supplying more details. I'm not convinced, though, of all the points. India still royally screwed itself, reputation-wise. >>As attractive as this sounds, historically this has not happened. And as >>many will tell you, the climate of the Bay Area in particular and >>California in general is extremely benign and delightful. The average >>winter temperature is only about 10C cooler than summer temperatures. > >Didn't Mark Twain say that the coldest winter he had ever >experienced was a summer in San Francisco? I do agree, SF and >environs are great: but US immigration laws being what they are, >not everyone can move there -- some day, "routing around" might >make those places more attractive which have the least >restrictive immigration laws. Here I feel compelled as a Loyal American to point out something that often gets lost in the comments about America doesn't let enough immigrants in, how it discriminates against immmigrants, etc. The thing to remember is that virtually none of the countries which the most vocal critics are from have anything approaching the U.S. policy about immigration! Mexicans and U.S. critics of U.S. policy cite the "border problem." However, Americans cannot work in Mexico except under extreme limitations. Americans in Mexico cannot send their children to Mexican public schools. And so on. This was described in "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre," where two Americans are stranded in Mexico, unable by law to work. Things haven't changed much. And what about immigration to Japan? Or Hong Kong? Or Taiwan? Ask the boat people still rotting in camps, or turned back to sea to sink. How about immigration into Switzerland, or Sweden, or France? I don't have any knowledge about the situation on immigrating to India--I don't know too many Americans who have, except some friends of friends who moved to Goa some years back. Personally, I favor open borders--but no public schooling, no tax-funded handouts, no welfare, no child support, no public hospitals, etc. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Tue Aug 13 22:04:37 1996 From: cdaemon at goblin.punk.net (Checkered Daemon) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:04:37 +0800 Subject: Econopunks FAQ, Ver. 0.98 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960813144043.00887ef8@panix.com> Message-ID: <199608140212.TAA14564@goblin.punk.net> > > What is a Fair Price for a good or service? > > There is no such thing as a Fair Price. There are only the prices paid by > willing buyers and sellers. These are generally called market prices. Many > factors influence price including cost of production and product > characteristics but the only determinants are the desire of market actors to > complete transactions at given prices. A Fair Price could be construed as a price agreed upon by a willing buyer and a willing seller WITHOUT outside interference. The extra $150 I have to spend to get a computer without MS Windows 95 on it so I can run Linux comes to mind ... -- Checkered Daemon cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Delirium: There must be a word for it ... the thing that lets you know that TIME is happening. IS there a word? Sandman: CHANGE. Delirium: Oh. I was AFRAID of that. (My other SIG is a large, famous company whose opinions are not necessarily mine.) From vince at offshore.com.ai Tue Aug 13 22:05:28 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:05:28 +0800 Subject: More on "Fraud" and Anguilla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've been thinking about this whole "Taxbomber" issue of "fraud." Again, what I said was my lawyer called and said it was illegal to sell fake passports in Anguilla. The fraud was taxbomber saying he never sold fake passports in his post to the net of "feel sorry for me my ISP made me relocate even though I never sold fake passports". > (I'm > still not completely sure whether Taxbomber lost his account at Offshore > Information Services Ltd. because: > > a) what he was offering actually violated Anguillan law (was there a > determination that selling camouflage passports violates a specific > statute?) My lawyer, probably the top lawyer in the country, said it is illegal in Anguilla. I don't have a copy of that law. > b) what he was offering constituted fraud (to whom? His customers certainly > knew what they were buying. To potential victims in the future?) Not clear if it is defined as fraud by the law. > c) he brought unwelcome attention to Anguilla in general and to Offshore > Information Services Ltd. in particular. (Vince's mention that the whole > island had read the story suggests something to this.) This is part of it. If nobody knew where he was things might have continued as they were. I mention it as a lesson learned. > d) he violated some particular clause of his service agreement with > Offshore Information Services Ltd. We did not have any contract. I have since posted a page with the policy. Fair point. > Now I read from this that Vince is encouraging "multi-level-marketing > companies" to use his service. Am I wrong on this? > > Another name for this, commonly used, is "pyramid scheme." Or "Ponzi > scheme." Well, multi-level marketing does not need to be pyramid scheme, but you are right that it could be bad news. So I have taken off that encouragement from my web page. Thanks. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From vince at offshore.com.ai Tue Aug 13 22:05:36 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:05:36 +0800 Subject: Anguilla story... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim >Vince: > >In a nut shell, taxbomber.com was on my system in Anguilla. He was > >selling "camoflauge passports". One David Evans of Bloomberg Business > >News wrote an article where he quoted taxbombers page saying something > >like "it is illegal to use these passports to open up bank accounts, but > >there is little chance of getting caught". I got a call from my lawyer who > >had seen the article (along with just about everyone else in Anguilla) and > >he told me that was illegal in Anguilla and I should cancle the account. > >I did and taxbomber moved to another provider in another country. > > > >1) A number of cypherpunks are dissapointed that I did not fight to my > >death to defend this guy. > > I think you're overstating the case made by some of us, or, at least, by me. Your not dissapointed? > What I said was that your policies need to be spelled out, and that I saw > little evidence of "fraud" in what the guy was doing. Ok. I now have a link from my main page to a page with my policy. What I said (or meant to) was that MY LAWYER SAID IT WAS ILLEGAL IN ANGUILLA. In my first post I quoted the wrong part and said "this is fraud by taxbomber - he did sell fake passports". I meant to quote a part where he said something like "I never sold fake passports". It may be covered in the anti-fraud sections of the laws. > And that if you cut > off accounts (without warning, it sounds like) He got a little warning, then only web access was cut off. And I forwarded his email and was the nameserver for his domain name so that he could move right away to another site. Then he sent a message to the Internic to move the management of his domain to another site. > based on fairly flimsy (it > seems to me, and to Duncan, and to others) advice, then certain > reputational consequences are likely to follow. Understood. > By the way, from what you quote this guy as saying ("it is illegal to use > these passports to open up bank accounts, but there is little chance of > getting caught"), I _still_ see no fraud. Not saying that is fraud. The most I said was encouraging fraud. It has been pointed out that under common law using another name is not fraud. However, under certain countries laws using a fake passport to open a bank account may be defined as fraud. > >2) If the guy did not mention where his site was, the reporter probably > >would never have mentioned Anguilla and me in the article. > > Is this the real issue, that what he was doing brought bad publicity to you > and to Anguilla? It is both a lesson to be learned, and part of the overall situation. > These issues need to be aired. Of course you have every right to run things > as you wish, modulo contractual arrangements you may have entered into with > your customers and your Internet providers. But we on this list have > certain ideas about what an "offshore information provider" should provide. Sure. And you can run your offshore services as you wish. I like mine better. :-) > Contrast this case with the well-publicized cases recently where Neo-Nazi > material is being hosted on U.S. web sites. If selling fake passports is illegal in Anguilla, and the US has freedom of speech, they are not comparable. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From sophi at best.com Tue Aug 13 22:17:49 1996 From: sophi at best.com (Greg Kucharo) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:17:49 +0800 Subject: Anguilla...etc. Message-ID: <199608140219.TAA14383@dns2.noc.best.net> While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble purposes. Check that, obvious noble purposes. While most on this list would agree that free flow of information is noble we have all seen that this is otherwise with people in power. As I stated in my last post, the Swiss have maintained thier "haven" for many years by playing both sides. In accomodating everyone they avoid harassment. This way the Swiss maintain a good system and live to fight another day. ??????????????????????????????????????? Greg Kucharo sophi at best.com "People want chaos for about 5 minutes. Then they want some money and a backrub." -Bruce Sterling ??????????????????????????????????????? From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 22:40:14 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:40:14 +0800 Subject: Capital and Taxes Message-ID: At 10:18 PM 8/13/96, Brad Dolan wrote: >... and while I'm ranting... > >Can somebody explain why: > >1. Good jobs of the future are knowledge jobs which require little >capital investment. > >and > >2. We need a capital gains tax cut to encourage capital investment to >stimulate the growth of good jobs of the future. > >? Sure, as an investor in some small companies and a high-risk startup, I'll give some thoughts on what motivates _me_, and why a capital gains tax cut would help the economy. First of all, let's dispense with any confusion between "capital investment" and anything related to "capital goods" or "capital equipment." The two things are not at all the same. Consider a business that needs (or claims/hopes/plans) $1M in initial seed money to get rolling. Sure, some businesses get started with less, or with nothing, and finance growth out of sales. But a million bucks is not at all uncommon for a startup company that needs some work to be done before sales get started. Note that this million dollars has nothing to do with buying "capital investment," in the sense I think you mean (and in the sense I think Bart Croughs meant). It may all go to salaries for, say, 5 people for a year or two, plus office expenses, some other expenses, etc. Maybe even $50K worth of computers. This a "knowledge-intensive" company with very little needed in capital equipment. How is this money raised, and what calculations does a potential investor make about the risks, rewards, returns on investment, etc.? For one thing, the gains on such an investment over some time period (typically 3-6 years) are _capital gains_. These are now taxed at a marginal rate of 28% Federal plus whatever state and local taxes may apply, Here in California, the effective total marginal tax rate is 38-40%, depending on some factors. (In several industrialized countries the capital gains tax rate is zero, or nearly zero.) But this 38% rate doesn't even tell the whole story. Suppose that I want to make a $100K investment in this company my friends are trying to start. Money has a cost, both in the "rent" that is charged on it, or the "rent" that _could have_ been charged to another for an alternate use, and on something else that's terribly important: taxes must be paid on other assets sold to raise the $100K. For example, if I own shares in Intel, bought many years ago, I have to sell $160,000 worth of Intel stock, send a $60,000 check to Uncle Sam and Uncle Pete, and then send the remaining $100,000 to my friends. If the new investment *doubles*, my $100,000 gain is taxed at 38% and I'm left with a gain of about $62,000. It doesn't take a number theorist to see that I may as well have not even bothered. So long as I just sit on the Intel stock, no taxes are owed. Sounds like a no brainer to me. Yes, taxes will _someday_ have to be paid...but many of us are hoping, praying, and pleading for a cut in the capital gains tax rate...at least a rollback to the 22% rate of yesteryear (and 4% or less in states). This huge "backlog" of unrealized capital gains (aka gains on paper, but not yet taxable) is what is being spoken of when people like Jack Kemp and Steve Forbes speak of "unleashing" the capital gains now tied up due to the high tax rates. (Letting capital flow more easily will also make for a more efficient market. It may be that I would've liquidated much of my Intel holdings had the tax penalty not been so high.) There are many more things I could say, but this is already too long. Just don't think in terms of "capital" as just being "capital equipment." It is really "investment" in all its many forms. "Free the capital--and I don't mean D.C." --Tim May, author of "DOS Capital" Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From wb8foz at nrk.com Tue Aug 13 22:40:51 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:40:51 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960813234024.00c5ebcc@glc20.residence.gatech.edu> Message-ID: <199608140306.XAA02313@nrk.com> CWRU ran: {hope I get it correct} 2 pieces CAT 5 Monomode Multimode 2 pieces CAT1 for phone Thinnet and something else to every "room" around. Even the payphone kiosk in Stosacker Hall. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 13 22:51:50 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:51:50 +0800 Subject: Political Burnout Message-ID: <199608140257.TAA28772@mail.pacifier.com> To those of you who are tired of the Republican National Convention. And particularly to those who are ALREADY tired of the Democrat National Convention, despite the fact that it hasn't started yet. Remember those irritating signs beside the road, advertising some new apartment complex or housing development that you pass on the way home? You know, the ones which say, "If you lived here, you'd be home by now." Well, as you watch these conventions (conventia?), imagine a sign on the Information Superhighway, just up ahead. It says: "If your country were operated under the principles of 'Assassination Politics', not only would this convention be over by now, it wouldn't have even started!" We return you to your regularly scheduled farce. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From jgrasty at gate.net Tue Aug 13 22:57:17 1996 From: jgrasty at gate.net (Joey Grasty) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:57:17 +0800 Subject: WinSock Remailer Now Available By E-Mail Message-ID: <199608140213.WAA93882@osceola.gate.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The first alpha release of the WinSock Remailer is now available via e-mail. Due to problems setting up user authentication on my homepage at http://www.c2.net/~winsock/ I have decided to distribute it via e-mail until I can get user authentication working. In order for you to receive the WinSock Remailer, I have to be reasonably sure that you are a US or Canadian citizen or permanent resident. Therefore, you will need to review a copy of the License Agreement and fill out the required information. Then clear-sign the agreement with PGP and mail it to me at jgrasty at gate.net. Don't forget to tell me where I can find your PGP public key so that I can check the signature. No signed license agreement, no remailer. In order for me to have a good feeling that you are not a foreign national, I need to have the following information check out: a. Verify that your address is within the boundaries of the US or Canada. I will do this by checking if you are in a public address database such as "88 Million Households Phone Book". b. Verify that your name and e-mail address is the same as in your public key. This is basically the same method that Netscape is using at: http://wwwus.netscape.com/eng/US-Current/ to verify citizenship or permanent residency, but the process is not automated. I don't like having to enforce clearly unconstitutional ITAR regulations, but I'm not ready for an extended stay at Club Fed. - ---------------------------cut here----------------------------------- WinSock Remailer License Agreement This is the license agreement between Joey Grasty and the end user of the WinSock Remailer. Name of User: Street Address: Town, State, Country: , , Phone Number: E-mail Address: Where to find your PGP Public Key: 1. Joey Grasty grants to you a non-exclusive, non-sublicensable, license to use this Alpha version of the WinSock Remailer (the "Software"), in binary executable form for evaluation and trial use purposes only. 2. JOEY GRASTY MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS ABOUT THE SUITABILITY OF THIS SOFTWARE OR ABOUT ANY CONTENT OR INFORMATION MADE ACCESSIBLE BY THE SOFTWARE, FOR ANY PURPOSE. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED 'AS IS' WITHOUT EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NONINFRINGEMENT. THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED GRATUITOUSLY AND, ACCORDINGLY, JOEY GRASTY SHALL NOT BE LIABLE UNDER ANY THEORY OR ANY DAMAGES SUFFERED BY YOU OR ANY USER OF THE SOFTWARE. JOEY GRASTY DOES NOT HAVE ANY OBLIGATION TO SUPPORT THIS SOFTWARE OR ISSUE ANY UPDATES IN THE FUTURE. 3. While Joey Grasty intends to distribute a commercial release of the Software, Joey Grasty reserves the right at any time not to release a commercial release of the Software or, if released, to alter prices, features, specifications, capabilities, functions, licensing terms, release dates, general availability or any other characteristics of the commercial release as he sees fit. 4. Title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights in and to the Software shall remain in Joey Grasty and/or its suppliers. You agree to abide by the copyright law and all other applicable laws of the United States including, but not limited to, export control laws. 5. Joey Grasty may terminate this License at any time by delivering notice to you and you may terminate this License at any time by destroying or erasing your copy of the Software and notifying Joey Grasty of this action forthwith. This License is personal to you and you agree not to assign your rights herein. This License shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Florida and, as to matters affecting copyrights, trademarks and patents, by U.S. federal law. This License sets forth the entire agreement between you and Joey Grasty. 6. Use, duplication or disclosure by the Government of any locality, state or country, its elected officials or employees, is forbidden. 7. You may not download or otherwise export or reexport the Software or any underlying information or technology except in full compliance with all United States and other applicable laws and regulations. In particular, but without limitation, none of the Software or underlying information or technology may be downloaded or otherwise exported or reexported (i) into (or to a national or resident of) Cuba, Haiti, Iraq, Libya, Yugoslavia, North Korea, Iran, or Syria or (ii) to anyone on the US Treasury Department's list of Specially Designated Nationals or the US Commerce Department's Table of Deny Orders. By downloading the Software, you are agreeing to the foregoing and you are representing and warranting that you are not located in, under control of, or a national or resident of any such country or on any such list. 8. JOEY GRASTY OR ITS SUPPLIERS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR (a) INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL OR INDIRECT DAMAGES OF ANY SORT, WHETHER ARISING IN TORT, CONTRACT OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF JOEY GRASTY HAS BEEN INFORMED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, OR (b) FOR ANY CLAIM BY ANY OTHER PARTY. THIS LIMITATION OF LIABILITY SHALL NOT APPLY TO LIABILITY FOR DEATH OR PERSONAL INJURY TO THE EXTENT APPLICABLE LAW PROHIBITS SUCH LIMITATION. FURTHERMORE, SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THIS LIMITATION AND EXCLUSION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. 9. HIGH RISK ACTIVITIES. The Software is not fault-tolerant and is not designed, manufactured or intended for use or resale as on-line control equipment in hazardous environments requiring fail-safe performance, such as in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communication systems, air traffic control, direct life support machines, or weapons systems, in which the failure of the Software could lead directly to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage ("High Risk Activities"). Joey Grasty and its suppliers specifically disclaim any express or implied warranty of fitness for High Risk Activities. Clear-sign this agreement with your PGP public key and e-mail it to jgrasty at gate.net. - -------------------------------cut here------------------------------------ Thank you for your patience with this crude form of distribution. Regards, -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMhE2UsODO2V89BZZAQGOLAL9GU15R4N/6xIZCJGYaQ0Vlw4e7rqP06+d YH5806om50v/+8P9OKrxBOECEHPJLirFQcITXsYMn/DkVAcTVTrz9rKfJdzToeyB Bwr4vgpMqKw4oZnFGJa1PvUotSjTnETT =Arts -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Joey Grasty jgrasty at gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes] jgrasty at pts.mot.com [work -- designing pagers] "Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann PGP = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13 93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7 From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Aug 13 23:01:16 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:01:16 +0800 Subject: Anguilla...etc. In-Reply-To: <199608140219.TAA14383@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: "Greg Kucharo" writes: > While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the > authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble > purposes. ... Nor was there any activity from the authorities. A while back, when Vince first started advertizing his site, I asked him a few hypothetical questions, and he said roughly this: If client X posts something to Usenet from Vince's site, and if Y dislikes X's article so much that he mailbombs X, then Vince would pull X's plug. (I have the exact quote saved.) I lost interest right then. I'm not surprised that Vince acted dishonorably by pulling a client's plug with no warning for a very flimsy reason. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From minow at apple.com Tue Aug 13 23:36:39 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:36:39 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Regarding photographing cars for speeding, mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) notes that a drive could challenge a photo ticket by stating that >"it was not me driving when that photo was taken" When this was tried in (I believe) Sweden, the driver was told that the ticked would be canceled. Then, he was told that henceforth, he would be *required* to maintain a log of precisely who was driving, the date, time, and the beginning and ending odomoter. Required, that is, as a condition of keeping his license. And that he must produce this log whenever a police officer requested it. Amazing how this improved the driver's memory. There is another problem that these tickets could cause. (This could be an urban legend, of course): a former work collegue was speeding in Switzerland. His wife opened the letter with the ticket -- and photograph. The passenger was not his wife, and the location differed from where my former collegue's wife expected her (soon to be former) husband to be. Drive carefully. Martin Minow minow at apple.com From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 13 23:37:20 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:37:20 +0800 Subject: India, Productivity, and Tropical Climes Message-ID: <199608140439.VAA28846@dns2.noc.best.net> At 11:31 PM 8/13/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: > As regards IBM, its agreement with the government of India, under > which it was allowed to operate in the country, stipulated that > it would produce here, and transfer some technology. Instead, as > the government found, all it did was sell time on second-hand > computers (1401's as I recall, and this was mid to late '70s). > IBM was asked to either dilute, or live up to its original > agreement, which it wasn't prepared to do, so it left. Every single foreign computer company left during roughly the same period, as did almost all foreign companies and anybody who had a choice. The reasons generally given by those who left, for this mass exodus, which eventually sent the government into insolvency, is that Indian ]officials were arrogant, rude, dishonest, corrupt, continually broke contracts and agreements, and attempted to exercise direct power over everyone and everything. If indian government officials have a different version, I would not regard that version as coming "from the horses mouth" --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 13 23:49:09 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:49:09 +0800 Subject: Anguilla...etc. Message-ID: At 2:21 AM 8/14/96, Greg Kucharo wrote: > While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the >authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble >purposes. Check that, obvious noble purposes. While most on this list >would agree that free flow of information is noble we have all seen that >this is otherwise with people in power. As I stated in my last post, the >Swiss have maintained thier "haven" for many years by playing both sides. >In accomodating everyone they avoid harassment. > This way the Swiss maintain a good system and live to fight another day. Let me be clear that I am not talking about "noble motives." In the sense of somone sacrificing himself for the good of the herd, blah blah. Rather, there is an "archetype," if you will, of what a "remailer" is, what a "data haven" is, what a "tax shelter" is, etc. While we cannot reasonably expect a remailer to exactly match the archetype, we can point out obvious deficiencies. For "data havens," we have very few examples, compared to operational remailers. We have the fictional form in Bruce Sterling's "Islands in the Net," some of whose plot twists have some parallels to the current Anguilla situation. Another is the form described in Ross Anderson's "Eternity Service." What might we expect of a true data haven? I've tried to describe several of the attributes in my earlier posts, mainly by asking questions about specific examples (bomb-building instructions, "Kill the monarchy" screeds, etc.). Interestingly, with several of these examples, Vince has said that he is not interested in having this kind of material on his site. His invitation for Multi-Level Marketers to avoid U.S. and other laws by locating on his service has now been withdrawn, from his latest comments. (To the person who sent me mail explaining that MLM schemes are not illegal in the U.S., indeed, some are legal and some are not. I said as much. And for those which are legal in the U.S. or France or wherever, they would hardly have any need to use Vince's service, would they? I surmised from his invitation that he was encouraging MLM/pyramid scheme operators to avoid their parochial fraud laws and use the services in Anguilla.) I plan to do more looking at just who is left, who is using Offshore Information and what kinds of services they are offering. Not to harass Vince, of course, but to better look at the envelope of what is considered OK and what is not. If i find that all the "juicy" stuff is gone and all that is left is booking sailing cruises around the Carribbean, I'll hardly call it a "data haven." Which is not to say it's not still a useful and profitable business for Vince, just that it has no Cypherpunk relevance. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 13 23:59:08 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:59:08 +0800 Subject: More on "Fraud" and Anguilla Message-ID: <199608140439.VAA28830@dns2.noc.best.net> At 10:29 PM 8/13/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: > Again, what I said was my lawyer called and said it was illegal to sell > fake passports in Anguilla. The fraud was taxbomber saying he never sold > fake passports in his post to the net of "feel sorry for me my ISP made me > relocate even though I never sold fake passports". He never sold fake passports. If his passports had been marked "United States of America" or some such they would indeed be fake. They were not fake. Who says that only generally recognized governments of major nations are entitled to issue passports? > > a) what he was offering actually violated Anguillan law (was there a > > determination that selling camouflage passports violates a specific > > statute?) > My lawyer, probably the top lawyer in the country, said it is illegal in > Anguilla. I don't have a copy of that law. You should. The fact that you do not indicates alarming willingness to bend over, which is inconsistent with the way you represent your service in your ad. Amend the ad, or employ more spine. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Aug 14 00:03:02 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:03:02 +0800 Subject: 2600 (the magazine) Message-ID: <199608140527.AAA06157@einstein> Hi all, The current issue of 2600 is out. I bought mine at Barnes & Nobles. It has a couple of articles on cryptography as well as a port scanner program for Linux. Jim Choate From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 00:09:53 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:09:53 +0800 Subject: Anguilla...etc. Message-ID: At 3:25 AM 8/14/96 Moscow Time, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTD wrote: >"Greg Kucharo" writes: >> While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the >> authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble >> purposes. ... > >Nor was there any activity from the authorities. > >A while back, when Vince first started advertizing his site, I asked him a few >hypothetical questions, and he said roughly this: If client X posts something >to Usenet from Vince's site, and if Y dislikes X's article so much that he >mailbombs X, then Vince would pull X's plug. (I have the exact quote saved.) >I lost interest right then. I'm not surprised that Vince acted dishonorably by >pulling a client's plug with no warning for a very flimsy reason. "Acted dishonorably"? Really, Dimitri, are all Russians this rude? (Seeing the battles on Usenet between the "Sovoks" and the "Gruborbots," I'm beginning to think so.) While I think the Anguilla situation is an interesting one to analyze, I avoid such loaded terms as "dishonorable." --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org Wed Aug 14 00:32:38 1996 From: wombat at mcfeely.bsfs.org (Rabid Wombat) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:32:38 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments and Etherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Ben Combee wrote: > > > The "secure hubs" at GATech don't do encryption -- no way could that be done > at wire speed. What they do is fill the data portion of the Ethernet packet > with nulls. Everyone gets to see the source and destination MAC address and > length of every packet, but only the recipient (or a very clever spoofer -- > most of the "secure hubs" on the market have a few vulnerabilities) gets > the data. What vulnerabilities? I've heard tell of some(?) that "leak" unscrambled packets if flooded with extreme traffic levels, but have never seen or verified this. Got any specifics? > > If you run a packet sniffer, all you get are CRC errors (in order to > maintain wire speed, the non-destination ports don't compute one). > > As far as real-world geek apartments go, I heard of one in Manhattan that > worked exactly as described. I don't know whether they run "secure hubs." > Presumably they would -- I can't think of a major manufacturer's manageable > 10BaseT hub that lacks MAC address lockout features. Most manufacturers offer SNMP-manageable hubs, but these don't offer MAC-layer security. That usually costs a lot extra. The MAC-layer feature is not widely used. > > OTOH, I've heard tell that several of the residential coax experiments run > promiscuously. Everything your neighbor does online, you can see with the > right software. > If it is Ethernet (or any baseband technology, AFAIK), and on coax, then of course it is "promiscuous." All devices must see the packet; they're on a bus. The 10T hubs also follow the "all devices must see the packet rule", but by design; a packet is received on the "recieve" pair of one port, and transmitted on the "xmit" pairs of all ports. The secure hubs overwrite the data payload with "junk" first - no encryption involved, nothing to crack, and, as you've pointed out, without recomputing CRC. btw - if I were in an apartment environment, I'd want the "secure hubs", and would verify that they're actually in the secure mode. They usually have a "learning" mode, where they simply register the MAC address most recently assigned to each port (sort of like learning bridges - this saves a lot of manual entry). Of course, if left in this mode, they don't do a thing for security. On the flip side, if sucured, and you change network cards, or bring that laptop home from the office, etc. you won't be able to use it without the intervention of the hub's administrator. And yes, packet sniffers are easy to get a hold of; freeware is abundant. Anyone can easily use one on a segment they've got access to. - r.w. > -rich > > From nobody at replay.com Wed Aug 14 00:38:57 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:38:57 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Statists get to make choices, too. Message-ID: <199608140545.HAA13218@basement.replay.com> Dr. Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: >There is no place on the 'net safe for the Usenet Cabal or the fucking statists >who call themselves "libertarians". Oh, sure there is. The Misguided Cabal Dupes [tm] have decided they prefer the relative order of the current system to the chaos of a disbarred lawyer's vision. News admins have simply taken extra steps to make sure that their services won't be disrupted by a few individuals who style themselves the "Usenet Freedom Knights." I'm sure the Fucking Statists have taken similar steps. Your right to rant doesn't override my right to ignore you. Isn't that really what this country's supposed to be about? The right to be left alone? From rich at c2.org Wed Aug 14 00:52:19 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:52:19 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments and Etherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Any lingering cypherpunk-relevant curiosity should probably be directed to http://cougar.haverford.edu/resnet96/repeaters.html ] On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Rabid Wombat wrote: > On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Ben Combee wrote: > > > > The "secure hubs" at GATech don't do encryption -- no way could that be done > > at wire speed. What they do is fill the data portion of the Ethernet packet > > with nulls. Everyone gets to see the source and destination MAC address and > > length of every packet, but only the recipient (or a very clever spoofer -- > > most of the "secure hubs" on the market have a few vulnerabilities) gets > > the data. > > What vulnerabilities? I've heard tell of some(?) that "leak" unscrambled > packets if flooded with extreme traffic levels, but have never seen or > verified this. Got any specifics? Change your MAC address to be the same as the hub's. 3Com recently fixed this. Others might not have. > > As far as real-world geek apartments go, I heard of one in Manhattan that > > worked exactly as described. I don't know whether they run "secure hubs." > > Presumably they would -- I can't think of a major manufacturer's manageable > > 10BaseT hub that lacks MAC address lockout features. > > Most manufacturers offer SNMP-manageable hubs, but these don't offer > MAC-layer security. That usually costs a lot extra. The MAC-layer feature > is not widely used. That was true six months ago, but 3Com, Allied, Cabletron, Synoptics, HP, UB, and others now include it as a matter of course. Asante is the notable exception. There are some kooks out there, like the people at RIT, who think that everyone needs switched ports; and a few cheapskates, like management at a major university in the Palo Alto area, who stick with Asante because it's cheapest, and trust students to be nice (or at least nice enough to get caught). > btw - if I were in an apartment environment, I'd want the "secure hubs", > and would verify that they're actually in the secure mode. They usually > have a "learning" mode, where they simply register the MAC address most > recently assigned to each port (sort of like learning bridges - this saves > a lot of manual entry). Of course, if left in this mode, they don't do a > thing for security. Sure they do. You'd have a reasonable assurance that wherever you went, you'd be the only one seeing your packets -- assuming the backbone is secure, which you need to assume anyway if you're not doing packet, session, or application-layer encryption (which is the ultimate goal). The roving portable computer is a pretty common case nowadays. The only thing a static table gets you is intruder control. -rich From null at null.gov Wed Aug 14 01:14:21 1996 From: null at null.gov (I=(!isnum(self))) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:14:21 +0800 Subject: yet ANOTHER "Internet == child porn "story. Message-ID: <32117610.271D@null.gov> Again on today's CBS all-news stn. An elementary school teacher arrested for exchanging, or whatever, kiddieporn on the Internet. The reporter was duly dramatic and ominous sounding. Damn I wish I knew how many kiddie porners were doing their whatver OFF the 'net. Maybe, my fine friends, we're catching MORE o' them because they are on the net and clueless, rather than in back alleys and hard to find. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Recommended reading: "Manufacture of Consent", Noam Chomsky. Altho I hate much of his politics, that one's right on. From mab at research.att.com Wed Aug 14 01:20:00 1996 From: mab at research.att.com (Matt Blaze) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:20:00 +0800 Subject: key escrow idea from David Satelin of MIT Lincoln Labs In-Reply-To: <199608140509.WAA06467@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <199608140548.BAA05495@nsa.research.att.com> [Please include me on any mail you want me to see, as I don't read the cypherpunks list these days] > >>In Staelin's proposal government gains access to the communications, >>but does not gain "real-time access" as desired by the FBI. This loss >>may be tolerable, given the benefit obtained (forcing access to be >>made in accordance with the Constitutional requirements for >>notification before search). > >It sounds like you're saying that the government must inform the target of >the wiretap BEFORE doing it. ("notification before search") Right? That >would at least be better than the status quo. > You may be confused. I hope it was clear that I didn't write that. That text was part of the message from Ron Rivest that I included in my message. > ... >>------- End of Forwarded Message >> > ... >As far as I'm aware, if the police serve an ordinary search warrant at a >particular address, they can't prohibit the targets of that warrant from >telling anyone else of this. It seems to me that the main reason police >have gotten used to the idea of doing search warrants secretly is that the >local phonecos have been monopolies so long, and they're so used to >cooperating with government and the cops (as evidenced by the fact that >police regularly got illegal wiretaps before 1968), that this has soaked in >as being expected. Indeed, the pre-'68 illegal wiretaps prove beyond a >shadow of a doubt that government and the telephone company never have had >any sort of arm's-length relationship, and strongly suggest that the >Constitutionality of wiretapping (vis a vis the constitutionality of >phoneco's claimed responsibility to keep the whole thing secret) has never >been legitimately tested. > >Remember, since the phoneco has had no competition, they've never been at >risk from being shunned by customers who object to this secret cooperation. >A more "realistic" position, I think, would be to conclude that if there was >true competition, customers would be able to negotiate varying levels of >non-cooperation in order to win customers. I suspect that post-Ruby >Ridge/post-Waco, there would be a substantial fraction of the public who >would conclude that it cannot trust its own government. > Well, I don't know what went on before 1968, but these days phone companies don't keep wiretap orders secret because they are being nice to the police, they keep them secret because the court order for the weretap also orders them to. Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but when a third party is ordered to turn over records or access to something, the order often includes a provision that prohibits them from revealing the order to the subject. This is not unique to phone records; orders for bank records frequently have secrecy provisions as well. -matt From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 14 01:25:40 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:25:40 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] Locating cell phones with power off? Message-ID: I seem to remember that somebody once mentioned that cell phones transmit signal even with the power switch off. Supposedly, you have to take out the batteries to cut the signal. The more I am thinking about it, the less sense it makes. Can somebody here please confirm (or deny) this rumor? TIA, -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From bdolan at use.usit.net Wed Aug 14 01:30:22 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:30:22 +0800 Subject: Capital and Taxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > But this 38% rate doesn't even tell the whole story. Suppose that I want to > make a $100K investment in this company my friends are trying to start. > Money has a cost, both in the "rent" that is charged on it, or the "rent" > that _could have_ been charged to another for an alternate use, and on > something else that's terribly important: taxes must be paid on other > assets sold to raise the $100K. For example, if I own shares in Intel, > bought many years ago, I have to sell $160,000 worth of Intel stock, send a > $60,000 check to Uncle Sam and Uncle Pete, and then send the remaining > $100,000 to my friends. If the new investment *doubles*, my $100,000 gain > is taxed at 38% and I'm left with a gain of about $62,000. > > It doesn't take a number theorist to see that I may as well have not even > bothered. So long as I just sit on the Intel stock, no taxes are owed. > Sounds like a no brainer to me. > > Yes, taxes will _someday_ have to be paid...but many of us are hoping, > praying, and pleading for a cut in the capital gains tax rate...at least a > rollback to the 22% rate of yesteryear (and 4% or less in states). This > huge "backlog" of unrealized capital gains (aka gains on paper, but not yet > taxable) is what is being spoken of when people like Jack Kemp and Steve > Forbes speak of "unleashing" the capital gains now tied up due to the high > tax rates. Now imagine that I want to make that $100K investment or, more realistically, that I want to invest $100K in my kid's college education. I'm going to have to earn wages of $160K and pay $60K in tax. It would make me cranky if the guy next door could just clip $100K of coupons, tax free, to pay for his kid's education. While I'm sure Steve Forbes could, I can't think of a moral argument why income from selling stock should be taxed at a rate lower (or higher) than than income from wages. Jamie Whitten, late chairman of the House Appropriations Committee once said, "All anyone wants is a special advantage over the next fellow. Understand that, and you've understood the intent of every law ever passed." I think that applies to tax law. bd From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 14 01:38:35 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:38:35 +0800 Subject: key escrow idea from David Satelin of MIT Lincoln Labs Message-ID: <199608140509.WAA06467@mail.pacifier.com> At 08:19 PM 8/13/96 -0400, Matt Blaze wrote: >My comments included below Rivest's message. >------- Forwarded Message from Rivest >Here is another MIT professor's (Dave Staelin's) suggestion for a >national crypto policy. I thought you might be interested in seeing >it; given the difficulty of the debate, any variant, even if only >slightly different from previous ones, should be considered. Feel >free to pass this note around, or to post it... > >Here is Staelin's idea: > (1) You can use any crypto you want, but you must keep a record > of the crypto keys you used. > (2) The government can ask for the crypto keys later, if they have > a court order, just as they can ask for any of your other papers > or documents. You must give the key(s) to them, just as you > must turn over your private papers in such a situation. > (There would have to be an appropriate penalty for losing the > key...) > >The attractive feature of this proposal is that it puts encrypted >communications in the same category as private papers; the government >is required to give notice to (at least one of) the affected >individual(s) _before_ the search can be undertaken. This cures what is >in my mind a defect in the current wire-tapping laws. While I agree that there is a defect in current wire-tapping laws, it's a lot more serious than this. The defect, I think, is that wiretapping is thoroughly unconstitutional. The reason I believe it's unconstitutional is that unlike any other kind of search warrant that preceeded it, a wiretap warrant authorizes a continuing violation of privacy. It also allows police to violate that privacy secretly. Indeed, as I understand it current practice is to not inform the target of the tap even once the tap is removed. It appears far more likely that the technical fact that wiretaps can be done without informing the target has allowed the cops to conveniently re-interpret the Constitution to assume that no notification is necessary. Regular search warrants simply allow police to visit a location, ONCE, and collect evidence. The police must show up, identify themselves, and do their search, and LEAVE. Once they're gone, privacy is restored. And the target is informed of the police's interest, and so the police are motivated to not engage in "shotgun wiretaps" against people who aren't likely worthy of them. I contend that there is no logical reason to believe that the current practice of wiretapping is anticipated by any other search warrant. The _reason_ wiretaps are done in a manner so hostile to privacy and the Constitution, I believe, is that when they were "legalized" in 1968, police had already had a long history of doing them illegally, but because they were illegal they couldn't be entered into evidence in court. That legalization was ostensibly a compromise to make them admissable, but also make the police obey the law. The problem is that since the police were ALREADY violating the law, any "compromise" they were likely to agree to would have been strongly weighted against a Constitutional interpretation. (If you already have 3/4s of the loaf, why give it up?) In fact, the police gave up NOTHING: If they were able to get illegal wiretaps before 1968, there is no reason to believe that they couldn't get them after 1968. If, on the other hand, the police had genuinely obeyed the law and Constitution before 1968, more effective protections against violations of privacy would have been obtainable in exchange for legalizing wiretaps. For example, they might have been forced to agree to informing the target of every wiretap when it is removed, or maybe even informing them when the tap is placed! This will appear quite odd to the police, who will claim that wiretaps won't do any good against informed targets, but then again they probably objected to being prohibited from using thumbscrews and beating confessions out of prisoners. The fact is, not every police practice which is arguably useful is bound to be Constitutional. Another problem is with item 2 above: It amounts to an obvious violation of the 5th amendment to the Constitution, because it criminalizes the refusal to provide evidence against yourself. Even worse, it requires that you maintain, effectively, all conversations done by electronic/encrypted means. It is somewhat as if you were required to carry a tape recorder around and keep a record of every conversation you ever have, to be released to the cops whenever they get a search warrant. Rivest may be an excellent cryptographer, but a constitutional scholar he ain't. >DISCUSSION >In a variant of Staelin's proposal (my twist) you could append to each >encrypted message an encrypted form of the message key. The >encryption could be with the public-key of a trusted third party who >will not (and legally may not) reveal the message key without >notifying you first (or ensuring that you have been appropriately >served with the corresponding warrant). For example, the ACLU might >be such a TTP. This protects the government's right to access and >protects the individual from the penalties (or benefits) of losing the >key. This procedure is technically simple; what is more complex is >ensuring that the TTP's are appropriately registered and protected >from undue government influence. The use of such a TTP would in any >case be optional; the communicants need not use a TTP if they >understand their obligation to keep the crypto keys around for some >period of time afterwards. What about an alternate system that takes a poll, and requires a vote of 90% or more to allow the government to get the escrowed key? If the target is REALLY a "big bad criminal" then likely they'll get approval. OTOH, if the government had just "done a Waco" and a substantial fraction of the population were seriously pissed, the government wouldn't have a prayer. (not that I'd find even this system "acceptable," but at least it would be better... The problem is, none of these proposals reflect any recognition that there may come a time where it would be far better for society to NOT give the government the evidence it wants. This "government is always right" patina is wearing mighty thin.) >In Staelin's proposal government gains access to the communications, >but does not gain "real-time access" as desired by the FBI. This loss >may be tolerable, given the benefit obtained (forcing access to be >made in accordance with the Constitutional requirements for >notification before search). It sounds like you're saying that the government must inform the target of the wiretap BEFORE doing it. ("notification before search") Right? That would at least be better than the status quo. > The use of wiretapping encrypted >communications as a preventive measure might be severely limited, but >its use as a means of gathering evidence to force a conviction would >be preserved. > >For international communications, each communicant might be required to >use a TTP that is bound to honor the laws of his country (which TTP to be >used should be the choice of the communicant). > >It may be seem a bit strange to force individuals to keep around >information (keys) that they no longer really need. However, this is >more-or-less the case for financial records right now. However, people aren't obligated to keep financial records around, or keep them in a form the cops can read. >CONCLUSION > >The fundamental idea is to give the government a right to access >encrypted communication in return for a guarantee that access may not >be obtained until there is BOTH proper legal authorization AND proper >prior notice to (at least one of) the communicants. Two giant steps backward! I genuinely don't see that I, as an ordinary citizen, am EVER likely to be a victim of a crime which could be prevented or solved by the system as Rivest describes it. OTOH, I believe that it is almost certain that my rights will continue to be abused by a government which will be able to use this system to protect itself from being removed, either by vote or by gunfire. I conclude that proposals like this will rarely be used to protect ordinary citizens, and are almost entirely intended to buttress the government. >Is this workable?? NO! >------- End of Forwarded Message > >[Matt's comments follow] [much deleted] >While Ron's twist decreases some of the burden on the user it >eliminates the main benefit of the Staelin proposal - that one >cannot obtain cleartext without the knowledge of at least one party. >The TTP could be compelled (as the phone company is now for regular >wiretaps) to keep the request secret, under court order. Which, of course, is yet another problem with the current wiretap system. Given the 1st amendment, I see NOTHING which should allow the government to prohibit a third party (the phoneco) from telling me of the police's interest. I realize that this is "assumed without question" by the various suck-ups who populate government and probably most lawyers, but it seems to me that one of the disadvantages of the government going outself itself to obtain evidence SHOULD BE that in doing so, it reveals its interests to those third parties. As far as I'm aware, if the police serve an ordinary search warrant at a particular address, they can't prohibit the targets of that warrant from telling anyone else of this. It seems to me that the main reason police have gotten used to the idea of doing search warrants secretly is that the local phonecos have been monopolies so long, and they're so used to cooperating with government and the cops (as evidenced by the fact that police regularly got illegal wiretaps before 1968), that this has soaked in as being expected. Indeed, the pre-'68 illegal wiretaps prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that government and the telephone company never have had any sort of arm's-length relationship, and strongly suggest that the Constitutionality of wiretapping (vis a vis the constitutionality of phoneco's claimed responsibility to keep the whole thing secret) has never been legitimately tested. Remember, since the phoneco has had no competition, they've never been at risk from being shunned by customers who object to this secret cooperation. A more "realistic" position, I think, would be to conclude that if there was true competition, customers would be able to negotiate varying levels of non-cooperation in order to win customers. I suspect that post-Ruby Ridge/post-Waco, there would be a substantial fraction of the public who would conclude that it cannot trust its own government. I can think of at least one suck-up lawyer who will pooh-pooh this, claiming that wiretaps are now legal, but when looked at from a pre-1968 standpoint, wiretaps were illegal, so it seems logical that customers should have been entitled to insist that telephone companies obey the law. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the reason this kind of illegal behavior was done by the cops as well as the phonecos is the fact that no phoneco ever had to fear loss of any kind of profit as a consequence of illegal cooperation. Indeed, I doubt that any telephone company EVER _publicly_ refused an illegal wiretap request by police. (By this, I mean the phoneco informed the public of an illegal request on its own initiative.) The total or near-total absence of such practices would make it clear that nothing that occurred before 1968 could possibly be considered the norm for constitutionality, casting further doubt on the 1968 "compromise." It doesn't seem likely (from a constitutional standpoint, anyway) that the "normal" level of cooperation that police can get from a monopolized, regulated industry should, retroactively, become considered to be the "constitutional" amount of cooperation that the cops can legally expect to get from everyone else. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From Wyntermute at postoffice.worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 14 01:41:08 1996 From: Wyntermute at postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Justin Card) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:41:08 +0800 Subject: (Off Topic) Re: FCC_ups In-Reply-To: <199608120538.WAA29683@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: <3210496C.5153@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> David Wagner wrote: > The *real* challenge: how do you support sender- and recipient- anonymous > phone calls with strong security? Have fun. If you're only encrypting/decrypting at each end, couldn't a key exchange like Diffie-Hellman work? Or is this not the "anonymous" feature you were looking at? -- Wyntermute From mikev at is.co.za Wed Aug 14 02:18:44 1996 From: mikev at is.co.za (Mike van der Merwe) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:18:44 +0800 Subject: Changing the headers In-Reply-To: <009A6D03.6A10B362.18@uni-lj.si> Message-ID: <32117D4F.59E2B600@is.co.za> Hi again :-) Changing the from header is easy -- load netscape and change your from addy... Or else you can telnet to port 25 of any given smtp server and type help -- the rest is great fun. If memory serves, type HELO (one "l") to introduce yourself, then declare the recipient and the sender and finally any headers and the message. But type help -- smtp servers are very friendly. Later Mike -- I'm sure we will find out in a few years that Microsoft invented the Net. Or brought it to the masses. Or saved it from a certain and early demise. Or all of the above. JAMES SEYMOUR http://titus.is.co.za/mikev From loki at infonex.com Wed Aug 14 02:23:39 1996 From: loki at infonex.com (Lance Cottrell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:23:39 +0800 Subject: WinSock Remailer Now Available By E-Mail Message-ID: I would be happy to distribute it from my site, along side Mixmaster. -Lance At 3:15 PM 8/13/96, Joey Grasty wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >The first alpha release of the WinSock Remailer is now available via >e-mail. Due to problems setting up user authentication on my homepage >at > > http://www.c2.net/~winsock/ > >I have decided to distribute it via e-mail until I can get user >authentication working. > >In order for you to receive the WinSock Remailer, I have to be reasonably >sure that you are a US or Canadian citizen or permanent resident. >Therefore, you will need to review a copy of the License Agreement and >fill out the required information. Then clear-sign the agreement with PGP >and mail it to me at jgrasty at gate.net. Don't forget to tell me where I can >find your PGP public key so that I can check the signature. No signed >license agreement, no remailer. > >In order for me to have a good feeling that you are not a foreign national, >I need to have the following information check out: > >a. Verify that your address is within the boundaries of the US or Canada. > I will do this by checking if you are in a public address database such > as "88 Million Households Phone Book". >b. Verify that your name and e-mail address is the same as in your public > key. > >This is basically the same method that Netscape is using at: > > http://wwwus.netscape.com/eng/US-Current/ > >to verify citizenship or permanent residency, but the process is not >automated. > >I don't like having to enforce clearly unconstitutional ITAR regulations, >but I'm not ready for an extended stay at Club Fed. > >- ---------------------------cut here----------------------------------- >WinSock Remailer License Agreement > >This is the license agreement between Joey Grasty and the end user >of the WinSock Remailer. > >Name of User: >Street Address: >Town, State, Country: , , >Phone Number: >E-mail Address: >Where to find your PGP Public Key: > > >1. Joey Grasty grants to you a non-exclusive, non-sublicensable, >license to use this Alpha version of the WinSock Remailer (the >"Software"), in binary executable form for evaluation and trial use >purposes only. > >2. JOEY GRASTY MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS ABOUT THE SUITABILITY OF THIS >SOFTWARE OR ABOUT ANY CONTENT OR INFORMATION MADE ACCESSIBLE BY THE >SOFTWARE, FOR ANY PURPOSE. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED 'AS IS' WITHOUT >EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY >AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NONINFRINGEMENT. THIS SOFTWARE >IS PROVIDED GRATUITOUSLY AND, ACCORDINGLY, JOEY GRASTY SHALL NOT BE LIABLE >UNDER ANY THEORY OR ANY DAMAGES SUFFERED BY YOU OR ANY USER OF THE >SOFTWARE. JOEY GRASTY DOES NOT HAVE ANY OBLIGATION TO SUPPORT THIS >SOFTWARE OR ISSUE ANY UPDATES IN THE FUTURE. > >3. While Joey Grasty intends to distribute a commercial release of the >Software, Joey Grasty reserves the right at any time not to release a >commercial release of the Software or, if released, to alter prices, >features, specifications, capabilities, functions, licensing terms, >release dates, general availability or any other characteristics of the >commercial release as he sees fit. > >4. Title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights in and to >the Software shall remain in Joey Grasty and/or its suppliers. You agree >to abide by the copyright law and all other applicable laws of the >United States including, but not limited to, export control laws. > >5. Joey Grasty may terminate this License at any time by delivering notice >to you and you may terminate this License at any time by destroying or >erasing your copy of the Software and notifying Joey Grasty of this action >forthwith. This License is personal to you and you agree not to assign your >rights herein. This License shall be governed by and construed in accordance >with the laws of the State of Florida and, as to matters affecting copyrights, >trademarks and patents, by U.S. federal law. This License sets forth the >entire >agreement between you and Joey Grasty. > >6. Use, duplication or disclosure by the Government of any locality, state >or country, its elected officials or employees, is forbidden. > >7. You may not download or otherwise export or reexport the Software or >any underlying information or technology except in full compliance with >all United States and other applicable laws and regulations. In >particular, but without limitation, none of the Software or underlying >information or technology may be downloaded or otherwise exported or >reexported (i) into (or to a national or resident of) Cuba, Haiti, >Iraq, Libya, Yugoslavia, North Korea, Iran, or Syria or (ii) to anyone >on the US Treasury Department's list of Specially Designated Nationals >or the US Commerce Department's Table of Deny Orders. By downloading >the Software, you are agreeing to the foregoing and you are >representing and warranting that you are not located in, under control >of, or a national or resident of any such country or on any such list. > >8. JOEY GRASTY OR ITS SUPPLIERS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR (a) INCIDENTAL, >CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL OR INDIRECT DAMAGES OF ANY SORT, WHETHER ARISING IN >TORT, CONTRACT OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF JOEY GRASTY HAS BEEN INFORMED OF THE >POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, OR (b) FOR ANY CLAIM BY ANY OTHER PARTY. THIS >LIMITATION OF LIABILITY SHALL NOT APPLY TO LIABILITY FOR DEATH OR PERSONAL >INJURY TO THE EXTENT APPLICABLE LAW PROHIBITS SUCH LIMITATION. FURTHERMORE, >SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR >CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THIS LIMITATION AND EXCLUSION MAY NOT APPLY TO >YOU. > >9. HIGH RISK ACTIVITIES. The Software is not fault-tolerant and is not >designed, manufactured or intended for use or resale as on-line control >equipment in hazardous environments requiring fail-safe performance, such >as in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or >communication systems, air traffic control, direct life support machines, >or weapons systems, in which the failure of the Software could lead >directly to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental >damage ("High Risk Activities"). Joey Grasty and its suppliers specifically >disclaim any express or implied warranty of fitness for High Risk >Activities. > >Clear-sign this agreement with your PGP public key and e-mail it to >jgrasty at gate.net. > >- -------------------------------cut here------------------------------------ > >Thank you for your patience with this crude form of distribution. > >Regards, > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 2.6.2 > >iQB1AwUBMhE2UsODO2V89BZZAQGOLAL9GU15R4N/6xIZCJGYaQ0Vlw4e7rqP06+d >YH5806om50v/+8P9OKrxBOECEHPJLirFQcITXsYMn/DkVAcTVTrz9rKfJdzToeyB >Bwr4vgpMqKw4oZnFGJa1PvUotSjTnETT >=Arts >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >Joey Grasty >jgrasty at gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes] >jgrasty at pts.mot.com [work -- designing pagers] >"Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, >of course, in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann >PGP = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13 93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell loki at obscura.com PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. Mixmaster, the next generation remailer, is now available! http://www.obscura.com/~loki/Welcome.html or FTP to obscura.com "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche ---------------------------------------------------------- From enzo at ima.com Wed Aug 14 02:55:33 1996 From: enzo at ima.com (Enzo Michelangeli) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:55:33 +0800 Subject: India, Productivity, and Tropical Climes In-Reply-To: <199608140439.VAA28846@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > At 11:31 PM 8/13/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: > > As regards IBM, its agreement with the government of India, under > > which it was allowed to operate in the country, stipulated that > > it would produce here, and transfer some technology. Instead, as > > the government found, all it did was sell time on second-hand > > computers (1401's as I recall, and this was mid to late '70s). > > IBM was asked to either dilute, or live up to its original > > agreement, which it wasn't prepared to do, so it left. > > Every single foreign computer company left during roughly the same > period, as did almost all foreign companies and anybody who had a choice. > > The reasons generally given by those who left, for this mass exodus, > which eventually sent the government into insolvency, is that Indian > officials were arrogant, rude, dishonest, corrupt, continually broke > contracts and agreements, and attempted to exercise direct power over > everyone and everything. Not only: until at least five or six years ago, the trade unions had forced limits to the yearly increase in number of computers per year in the banking sector (if I remember well, 2% a year for private institutions and 1% for government owned). The government duly obliged, of course. Tropical climate or "corporate greed" has nothing to do with inefficiency and poverty: just compare the cases of Hong Kong or Singapore. Rather, corrupt and populistic governments are the key factor. Enzo From fstuart at vetmed.auburn.edu Wed Aug 14 03:11:13 1996 From: fstuart at vetmed.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 18:11:13 +0800 Subject: [SIGNAL] Microsoft's Internet Explorer Message-ID: <199608140728.CAA20496@snoopy.vetmed.auburn.edu> Sorry, no rants, economic theories, or chemistry questions, but... According to C-Net Radio (http://www.cnet.com/), Microsoft will be including 128-bit SSL encryption in their Internet Explorer 3.0 for Win 95 and NT 4.0. It took a bit of digging but I finally found the Microsoft press release at "http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/press/1996/aug96/128SECpr.htm". | (Douglas) Hofstadter's Law: | It always takes longer than you expect, even Frank Stuart | when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. From bea at algonet.se Wed Aug 14 04:02:44 1996 From: bea at algonet.se (Bjorn E. Andersson) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:02:44 +0800 Subject: PGP... Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Comment: Processed by MacPGP Control hIwD0O5h7jwcSMUBA/4kz1M5yeeYwTZGfB2hjpVNq1aAylyGKoWm+U65XhBCf+Wm nb0f9vtG5nUrULgofLnTJaLpJcULOlQfhwYk0LyZztK6uU/eG2Oam5q2xLKbFS5x qhDYjGAXKW166DhJmZJ4nfEvTJAW2rLo1fVdrhTUwhCRSGzQy5ivOytJtWu2KYUB DAPUje/lPvqhFQEH/0uYS1kYyZLRYCioI6JAQYfNDYENX/HD2a0tbTp4NiS1Fm1U rNPgHmn1hgqGgQlHfUu/l2Cl5l/T9/hXpF4hdxJk/PcbHbmctpaYw4wutwnym0GI H5+ws8NXHUz7giABKnJJ1ayO55FM6pTjVtk9jTZY1X8rA4qNuypawAyfrfNAQMI8 +FV/8+mSODkt1RGJPBG/ltLSfxhBlTbEm84pdTXkOfPFq3m4N4vfuj8dfvcHnEtU JJ9X45AIIY6A3hDLiE/H1Mb6JsL6Mp8y/OUrTjtO2tpX40f2XxaAOsBa8Zsi/Z2o ZrqX0aOaqqcjeSqtP1CqK3U/ah2U4xbUrq3yGImmAAAGoN/9XAMkQHKAYDTqWraE 9l7+cv9NjZ4NwC0yQEQPb9fojNTBb+9JrGEJ4OLcbpE7efDQVmZzjxpKlUGP7V61 iQc8qC7TdpdRHUFxUTpKyGNgHxEow39mqKGS9isrrcNDG31MUVxOUwVfDhgJ/2Ja V1RnpY18JsOMsJZVe645a5XOcGpZAZdax9LKFriHPO402VKV1YyB2O1VmOrHXWDH 1cpxbggcfFHQMOJ30wsPOHug/xsvegAKNonn08owVXt13F43MOJVzgV+NaSwjugD QrThoDC/D8tFfNPe47Xkl5ZsIm0L74EQZWBYXXIOHxJD/jlbXFehHQpLcboya3C9 1wrLdchGT49s2op1svai0Fjjc8Y4RI7+eMH9eiK06tDGYnFJ3MejY9lVMrUEAmDD MheXP8tHO1Z5Ae8W52ytN7/qT+fOkYS548KahcpWj6dohTPFhAEOFnlertTBIahV UwaoLe0Fbv+9QQ78yBXwmJ+7lC9a0k+RXKfW7qrmgFTcyGi6wX45r3sNlVup2XaL NZ9TGGvkpG9hJ6ZvfiwAiRNOfHIj3NNzHq/Mojd+4Wi4jARzhSZLjoF3wN6oK+uD e86A3aFcqDSNODTilvWqJMpTiglQBbTANoX124DeNybXHO8LS2n9jHsVqP5TpTiM onX5gdQcewbqfeQd1+go6lAUZMGgyRyRVKXIkF6qcE9aCgbt3JfWEQVOXohKOxeo uIDBAijBTSEqLFzwLgB7zdmRDcMvJ2eTSrdZ40rt/6mCGyUqRJZyEjrj7HvcBWP8 Kz12280rwLv6K/EDVTweBcG+YS84JqMbyiJ8XXWmeMx6W3d/Bo3GHanHbkK6mAQs taHrG0HWoRbpLkLt8b0eNCeZREbFdQzmhsSSXLdB53DTN+m4EG5y41QrMf2npP+K An5g5cMHjpMF04GmVR20+n2MO/FXeou8IViERBWeDtM/r84RwXPvJp6WiZMp7szg iCZWEOjui+ND+mAyZ7gkLT+NWLZX4ABpXhf+ewaxhFMCr4wYL8CKoSaXGpA/unLh diKm0g6pCj3MvJ8Z1DxisstnIruJw/rxc4UXBbODydHaljzm5iaW9r/1LV9OdB9V y7pRqyjj8Z310hvHgXbzWFQNeaPfAkSbE3cYJeW/sNgOB666P60AdQgUXdQssqLG nvH0avMOTTR6X/SbUM0yxpNDWPKNBGbx2dZMxPQd7pEUinGXUBf2dxDwbmBOWCad vwQwtI56v75gpO0kPKpelprfrV+S1lJIHBUli8BT+y9j2q+43Gxmmr9ljS4dIUSV LPuEABIrXkt3cJOtQfu4vKE8wHre1iyY+VSWVmAoDTVciL73o9IBqrH7/sU3p6Az hbp45h+vU2DdHS8GJjQNAffZNT9VX6FE+HarOAOHYuXv1YkQO+r6VO5D1jaJ+dh6 oIFaNNqORusRoruF59V4Hi0YvwxRhxdfp3NZsN0UpIaj39NB4Kkghgbb29GMAk6D 03mxHh8WPhSZ9kp5B0txC8WTk7LZQucrhwtTbWtLj9SWqm6R6w6X4u6c6SjNEvKg sSO4HagyqvMjmkyq3W7lglPxK85UlUYo/t928BNl5T6fiHMxYUt6pjJarJOavd0U BK7HQkHkMnuyDZrvEXa+1kSaaOMbxfmqhIQmcHYVpvxSjWDt3r/3kAUEwmZBFgRq em4W6NWXPRdt6e1U02K8YS1QrO5MrqVMaRGl2SGfOZYGPjueiT7GEceH77bSQ5dD QDnUzFdLDP7t24ZOCmTGQnVpaZeLDAuCyUfwtHqFD5HSRKlIhefYH5qh5RKpPjVh 4SvDm7e474R8DRJc6o6yPDa+0AJnb1BK2coFefFcMLO+Vg/+DiXEFcLBTDK4RTfT o/INu7nNbIqGbeOBBoNHX+4k7E7BVjqYcqoBqviFaRxKAPxvQsC6ITU2loXjjXUl 9ljhKQ4VMqwCrE8a/mMl4VxA+92Q6IBbj7o0l7c5t3SqNPyragZItNKyZTclfSVZ +UxbFrkQmJ89yHjiAVw6KqBfoc2lEv74kGAOEoyMPjbLi7z6Ko9E3/lvsf3m+BRz IUpMZqlCOGuR4Gsay27YtL50cuDh2gpLTPKqZzdnTzIL2J/SOt/Y/gNuCMOQy/1p ZjEI3Gm1s0URExAphfiO6rN13n6s2x9wQecYOw7bnFMAz13arDkPPT3FfCN9GiFh hXjtqhkjlF0AVe/7xVXhM8lEqBWampBOv52qsDi3gRveFMEAbzwxihJN8++xFfuC mUA= =Um3c -----END PGP MESSAGE----- From ben at EdelWeb.fr Wed Aug 14 04:34:38 1996 From: ben at EdelWeb.fr (Ben) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:34:38 +0800 Subject: South Florida Cypherpunks Meeting Reminder In-Reply-To: <199608132238.SAA52914@osceola.gate.net> Message-ID: > The South Florida Cypherpunks will meet at Hops Grill & Bar > in Boynton Beach, FL on Saturday, August 17 at 2:00 PM. As > always, our meeting place is at a microbrewery, and this one > has some very fine brews. Is there anyone who would be interested in a Paris(France) cpunks meeting? Ben. ____ Ben Samman.................................................ben at edelweb.fr Paris, France Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator From jk at stallion.ee Wed Aug 14 05:06:33 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:06:33 +0800 Subject: [SIGNAL] Microsoft's Internet Explorer In-Reply-To: <199608140728.CAA20496@snoopy.vetmed.auburn.edu> Message-ID: Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Frank Stuart kirjutas: > According to C-Net Radio (http://www.cnet.com/), Microsoft will be including > 128-bit SSL encryption in their Internet Explorer 3.0 for Win 95 and NT 4.0. As M$IE 3.0 is now available for download from www.microsoft.com, I did notice there is also a 128-bit version there, which requires you to first fill in data about you. Unfortunately microsoft.com is so slow right now, that I did not have a chance to try to download 128-bit version by filling in my favourite US politicians name. I believe the 128-bit M$IE 3.0 should be allowed to stored on some european crypto sites like hacktic, as it is free to everyone - with Netscape Navigator you would be breaking the copyright, with M$IE only ITAR. J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From vince at offshore.com.ai Wed Aug 14 07:09:56 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:09:56 +0800 Subject: Passports - "fake" vs "counterfeit" In-Reply-To: <199608140439.VAA28830@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > > He never sold fake passports. If his passports had been marked > "United States of America" or some such they would indeed be > fake. They were not fake. Websters defines fake with "to treat so as to falsify", "pretend", "simulate", "imitation", "impostor", "sham", "faud", and "counterfeit". The passports fit most of these definitions. A word applies if any of the definitions work. If the passports had been marked "US of A" they would have been "counterfeit". I did not say they were counterfeit (he clearly would not be permitted to sell counterfeit passports). So his passports are not "counterfeit", but they are "fake". -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From perry at alpha.jpunix.com Wed Aug 14 07:12:10 1996 From: perry at alpha.jpunix.com (John Perry) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:12:10 +0800 Subject: new type2.list/pubring.mix Message-ID: <199608141058.FAA17233@alpha.jpunix.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone, There is an updated type2.list/pubring.mix combination available for the mixmaster remailer software. You can get it via WWW from www.jpunix.com or by anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com. Of note is the addition of the squirrel remailer. Welcome aboard! - -- John Perry - perry at alpha.jpunix.com - PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry at jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhGxS1OTpEThrthvAQERXgP9FQJK5byJ2bXPIy1jwzZSBt6qNgMRCXph rqDRijUxehiSpmis5mq3gTtH/CcA7wAqkxLfO9izE3sC4HqWCd7B5D7KLZx9VPNG kZvUfQrZjzubLtz4ly0DtEDtnbKTEFLZ1tJL1ZUnZgsKTLEmeEIsXDc6r5zaGC0F E/U+SBe2oOg= =gYJD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bea at algonet.se Wed Aug 14 08:00:12 1996 From: bea at algonet.se (Bjorn E. Andersson) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:00:12 +0800 Subject: Re- PGP Message-ID: Sorry for the noise, I did a Cc by mistake. Bjorn A. From vince at offshore.com.ai Wed Aug 14 08:00:22 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:00:22 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - commercial and mailbombing policies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > > A while back, when Vince first started advertizing his site, I asked him >a few hypothetical questions, and he said roughly this: If client X posts >something to Usenet from Vince's site, and if Y dislikes X's article so >much that he mailbombs X, then Vince would pull X's plug. (I have the >exact quote saved.) I lost interest right then. I'm not surprised that >Vince acted dishonorably by pulling a client's plug with no warning for a >very flimsy reason. That question was about commercial ads, and I said "As long as I am not mailbombed I don't care about how you post.". I did *not* say I would pull the plug (full exchange below). From your other questions it looked like there was no chance of you being a customer so I did not fully explain. I have been mailbombed around a dozen times in the last year and never cut anyone off. Details below (I too have the exact quote)... Dimitri: > e) to spam usenet with commercial ads. Vince: >e) I think you would have to spam more than 100 groups to get my >system mail bombed. As long as I am not mailbombed I don't >care about how you post. First, yes, that 100 groups is off the wall. What I meant was you can send out commercial ads and I don't care at all. If you get mailbombed, that is another issue. If mailbombed then it goes toward your traffic. You get 100 MB/month of traffic with a domain name, and if you go over that amount of traffic the cost is $1/MB. If you have prepaid by check, and I don't know who you are, and your account goes below $0, I would cut you off till more money came in. Sorry for not explaining that. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From vince at offshore.com.ai Wed Aug 14 08:08:00 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:08:00 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - legal action or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > > "Greg Kucharo" writes: > > While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the > > authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble > > purposes. ... > > Nor was there any activity from the authorities. There were activity from the authorities. They had copies of the article and were very concerned about it and calling around asking people who knew me about this. They have not started any legal action about this. However, my work permit is up for renewal. They would not ever have to take legal action to shut me down, just decide not to renew my work permit, and I would have to leave the island. My lawyer says it is illegal to sell fake passports in Anguilla. So defending this guy could easily have been a fight to my death as an Anguilla ISP. Not defending him means he relocates to another ISP. This is the Internet guys, relocating a domain is not such a big deal. Taxbomber is using it as a reason for publicity, but he lost no email and his web pages were not down long. Remember regulatory arbitrage. If one country does not want something, there are other countries. I am going to apply for a 3 year work permit next time (they only gave out 1 year ones till very recently - since I applied). Assuming I get this, I will be in a somewhat more secure position. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From bart.croughs at tip.nl Wed Aug 14 08:10:35 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:10:35 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB89EA.F7C73200@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Joel Morgan wrote: >It seems clear that capital investment in tools will contribute to the -productivity- of workers. (Tools here meaning whatever machinery/ infrastructure is used to get work done.) Bart Croughs quotes a number of economists who seem to be saying that when capital investment leads to increased productivity (per worker) this also leads to higher wages. I'm not sure I understand -why- this should necessarily be so. It's my impression that in manufacturing industries, the more mechanized production is, the more workers will get paid. Then again, perhaps a more mechanized industry will pay more because more mechanized industries hire workers with higher skills (albeit fewer workers). It's my impression that when a company makes capital investments which increase productivity, the fruits of this increased worker productivity are shared (to some extent) with the workers. I can imagine a number of reasons why this might be done, but it's not absolutely clear to me that this would be a direct result of market forces.< Increased productivity of workers leads to higher wages for workers because of competition between employers. If a worker produces the worth of $3000 per month for his boss, and his boss is only willing to give him $2000 salary, then there are other employers who would be happy to give this man a job at a higher wage. They still profit if they give him a wage of $2100 instead of $2000. This process goes on until the salary of the worker equals his marginal productivity. Bart Croughs From bart.croughs at tip.nl Wed Aug 14 08:16:12 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:16:12 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB89EA.F3642600@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Arun Mehta wrote: >>Bart Croughs wrote: >I don't assume that the *total amount* of capital will be lowered in the US when US capital moves abroad. I assume that the amount of capital in the US will be *relatively lower*. So the wages will be *relatively* lower (lower than when the capital wouldn't have left the US), but not necessarily lower in any absolute sense. I thought this was obvious, but since Arun Mehta also misunderstood me, maybe I should have been more explicit here. > Henry Hazlitt in 'economics in one lesson' (p. 139): "The best way to raise wages, therefore, is to raise marginal labor productivity. This can be done by many methods: by an increase in capital accumulation - i.e. by an increase in the machines with which the workers are aided..." Pardon me, but I'm still confused. When Hazlitt talks about how many machines are employed, surely that's "absolute" capital, not relative. If US capital is invested abroad sensibly, such that it enriches the investors, they have more money to invest in machines at home and thereby increase local productivity (and wages). << If investors use their capital to invest abroad, this capital cannot at the same time be used to invest at home. Only after the investors decide not to invest abroad any more, they can invest it at home. But I was not talking about investors who decide to stop investing abroad and start investing at home. I was talking about investors who decide to invest abroad instead of at home, and the effect of such a decision on the wages in the US. Maybe in the future these investors will have more money, and will decide to stop investing abroad and start investing at home. But in the mean time, all the capital that's invested abroad diminishes the amount of capital invested at home, and so causes the wages at home to be less than they otherwise would have been (but not necessarily less in any absolute sense). Bart Croughs From bart.croughs at tip.nl Wed Aug 14 08:29:20 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:29:20 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encr Message-ID: <01BB89EA.DA36D600@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Chris Adams wrote: >On 12 Aug 96 19:17:00 -0800, bart.croughs at tip.nl wrote: >Now I will explain why the austrian economists are right. Imagine Robinson Crusoe. In the beginning, he catches fish with his bare hands. He has no capital investment, and consequently he is not very productive. His wage will be low (he will not catch much fish). If there is more capital investment - if, for example, he has a fishing rod - he will catch more fish in less time. His productivity is higher. His wage is higher (more fish). If there is still more capital investment - if, for example, he has a boat and fishing nets - he will catch even more fish. His productivity is higher. His wage is higher. Etcetera. So, it's really not difficult to see that the Robin's standard of living depends on the amount of capital available on his island. The same goes for the rest of humanity.< To a limited extent, that holds water. However, how would you explain, say, some of the construction work around here where a huge, expensive piece of equipment is being run by some guy making less than the Cal Trans worker with the flags? Or guys I know who are making low-middle class wages working on a $10,000 computer hooked up to a $1,500,000+ molding machine? Also: lawyers - You're getting charged $200 a billing hour by someone who probably doesn't even use a typewriter (After all, secretaries aren't just for oggling). Although legal references might be somewhat expensive, it doesn't compare to the money gained. Also: computers. I know people who are making an incredible amount on old machines. They might be using a few dollars in software (probably 2-3 hours worth at most) and are working on a cheesy old machine. However, because some of these $6.25/hr typists have been putting useful information into it, it is worth the trouble to pay someone $50/hr to fix it. Neither of them has invested much compared to what they're getting in return.< When economists say that wages depend on the amount of capital invested, they mean on a regional/national level, not on the level of individuals. >Your argument only works with 2 givens: 1) A larger investment will return at least a corresponding increase in productivity.< This tends to be the case. If a larger investment doesn't return a corresponding increase in productivity, the investment will generally not be made. Happily, no one wants to waste his money on investments that are not productive. >and 2) the worker is self-employed - otherwise there are too many factors involved. If #1 is true, *someone* will be making more money, but not necessarily the worker.< Yes, it's the worker who will make more money. Why? As I explained in another post on this subject: "Increased productivity of workers leads to higher wages for workers because of competition between employers. If a worker produces the worth of $3000 per month for his employer, and his employer is only willing to give him a wage of $2000 , then there are other employers who would be happy to give this man a job at a higher wage. They still profit if they give him a wage of $2100 instead of $2000. This process goes on until the salary of the worker equals his marginal productivity." Bart Croughs From bart.croughs at tip.nl Wed Aug 14 08:31:59 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:31:59 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB89EA.FB826540@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Blanc Weber wrote: >>From: Bart Croughs > >You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the U.S. is worse >off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how can you proof that the US >isn't worse off when US capital moves abroad? ............................................................. You have to be able to imagine the advantages, and you can only imagine them when you have the background to understand the difference between having fewer choices rather than more, a limited market base rather than an open one full of unlimited opportunity, and the increased domestic tensions from frustrated consumers who are likely to set up blackmarkets as work-arounds to the lack of desired goods & services. Essentially, you have to want to see, and work for, the difference resulting from unprotected markets. I think people who put up a lot of objections are afraid and do not want any proof of their error. You'd have to hold their nose to the figures, and even then they might close their eyes....< You are wrong. I'm not in error; I don't think the US is worse off when US capital moves abroad. I just want to know how you can proof it, so I would be able to rebut protectionist arguments. I don't know how to prove it. And, unfortunately, neither do you. Rhetoric is no proof. Bart Croughs From bdolan at use.usit.net Wed Aug 14 08:32:13 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:32:13 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto Message-ID: Subject: Clinton Is Trying to be Big Brother -- Phyllis Schlafly Column 8/8/96 Clinton Is Trying to be Big Brother August 8, 1996 by Phyllis Schlafly We hope the appropriate government agencies will soon solve the recent terrorist crimes and punish the criminals. But all Americans who care about civil liberties should vigorously resist President Clinton's attempt to use the terrorist attacks as an excuse to carry on his all-out war against the personal privacy of law-abiding Americans. This mind-set was first revealed in the Clinton health care bill, which would have given the government computer access to the medical records of all Americans. Fortunately, that totalitarian takeover of the health care industry was rejected. The Clinton Administration's education legislation now pending in Congress would put personal information about all schoolchildren -- academic, medical, attitudinal, behavioral, and family -- into an expanded Labor Market Information database available to the government, as well as to prospective employers. Now the Clinton Administration is trying to make it illegal for individual Americans to have private conversations with one another. That's the real meaning of its effort to control encryption technology, and it's a direct assault on the First Amendment. It would be downright ridiculous to assert that the First Amendment guarantees our right to speak in public but not in private. It would be just as ridiculous to say that we have freedom to speak in words that the government can understand, but not in words the government can't decipher. Americans have the right to speak to one another in private, behind closed doors, and we should likewise have the right to speak to one another in code and to put our coded messages on computer in a process called encryption. Americans would not tolerate the government opening and reading the letters we send through the mails, and we should not tolerate the government opening and reading our encrypted, or coded, messages sent via computer. Yet, Attorney General Janet Reno, FBI Director Louis Freeh, and Vice President Al Gore are all demanding the authority to read our encrypted messages. In a speech to the Commonwealth Club of California, Reno bluntly stated her demand for "ensuring law enforcement access to encrypted data.'' Reno boasted that there is "a consensus'' that the government should create a system known as "Key Escrow'' (i.e., a supposedly "neutral third party''), to which all Americans should be forced to "entrust'' the keys to their encrypted messages, and to which the government would have access. On the contrary, there is no such consensus. Do you trust Janet Reno with access to your private messages? Do you trust the FBI to keep your files confidential? The Clinton Administration is already doing 30 to 40 percent more federal telephone wiretaps and other electronic surveillance than the last year of the Bush Administration. Those figures don't even include national security wiretaps or the hundreds of extensions granting more time for wiretap orders already issued. FBI Director Freeh wrote the New York Times last November that "There is no intention to expand the number of wiretaps or the extent of wiretapping." Four months later, FBI documents revealed that the FBI does, in fact, plan to increase electronic surveillance 54 percent by 1998 and 130 percent by 2004. On July 12, Al Gore announced that the Administration will continue to push for the adoption of a massive public key infrastructure to give the government access to all encrypted communications. In a blatant bid for a police-state surveillance society, Gore warned about "the dangers of unregulated encryption technology." A neutral panel of the National Research Council was set up to make policy recommendations about encryption. The panel called on the government to abandon its efforts to restrict encryption. The NSC panel concluded that increased use of encryption would enhance our national security, not diminish it. Thirteen out of its 16 members had security clearances with access to secret information, and they saw no national security reason to justify the Clinton policy. The Clinton Administration bases its campaign to control private encryption on the alleged need to fight crime through wiretapping. However, the NSC panel concluded that the ability of the private sector to transfer confidential financial and other data over the information highway without interception is far more important. New technologies have given government awesome power to spy on individuals. The Filegate investigation accidentally uncovered the shocking news that, as soon as Bill Clinton entered the White House in 1993, he secretly spent $400,000 on software to create a highly sophisticated computer database to track detailed political, financial, attitudinal, and personal biographical information on 200,000 people, including members of Congress and the media. Known as WHODB for White House Office Data Base, the system was nicknamed Big Brother. Encryption is a First Amendment issue, not a crime issue. If the Clinton Administration is allowed to control encryption, it would be the biggest expansion of federal power since the passage of the Income Tax Amendment in 1913. EAGLE FORUM -- eagle at eagleforum.org PO Box 618 Alton, IL 62002 Phone: 618-462-5415 ---------------------------------------------- Are you on our E-mail list? Tell a friend about us! http://www.eagleforum.org From vince at offshore.com.ai Wed Aug 14 08:48:40 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:48:40 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim: > Rather, there is an "archetype," if you will, of what a "remailer" is, what > a "data haven" is, what a "tax shelter" is, etc. While we cannot reasonably > expect a remailer to exactly match the archetype, we can point out obvious > deficiencies. 1) Anguilla has secrecy laws. Professional relationships are confidential. There are strong secrecy laws. I have not given out taxbomber's name, nor will I as I could face legal action if I did. 2) Anguilla has no sales or income taxes. A business does not need to report anything about income, sales, etc, to the government (or anyone else). If a guy wants to sell his data and keep 100% of the profits instead of 50% or 60%, then Anguilla would be a haven for him. 3) We don't have the same laws as other countries, so there are things that can be done here. For example, we can export encryption software. Also, we will have bingo.com in Anguilla. There are deficiencies from a cypherpunk or Libertarian point of view. And these are interesting. And exactly what I want to do is changing. As I said, Anguilla is not the datahaven of cypherpunks wet dreams. I am sure there are no datahavens that match the cypherpunk concept of an ideal datahaven, yet. But I think the term DataHaven applies as well to Anguilla as any other place I know of. Tim, we would all be very happy if you were to locate a country that could be the site of the ideal datahaven, and finance a couple cypherpunks to setup there. It would be a big help to our cause. Could you do this? In the mean time, people may have to exist in cyberspace (like www.taxbomber.com) without having a totally secure physical location. This is not the end of the world, or really even that painful. If done right you could be down for only an hour - just long enough for nameservers to change. Taxbomber is now setup to do it very fast next time, if the need ever comes. Tim, I think you have even advocated this approach, not stressing the physical location, just the cyberspace location. No? -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From stend at grendel.austin.texas.net Wed Aug 14 09:58:05 1996 From: stend at grendel.austin.texas.net (Firebeard) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:58:05 +0800 Subject: Capital and Taxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608141319.IAA23659@grendel.austin.texas.net> >>>>> Brad Dolan writes: BD> Now imagine that I want to make that $100K investment or, more BD> realistically, that I want to invest $100K in my kid's college BD> education. I'm going to have to earn wages of $160K and pay $60K BD> in tax. It would make me cranky if the guy next door could just BD> clip $100K of coupons, tax free, to pay for his kid's education. BD> While I'm sure Steve Forbes could, I can't think of a moral BD> argument why income from selling stock should be taxed at a rate BD> lower (or higher) than than income from wages. Because, when you work harder (or more), you are (presumably) producing more and adding to the economy. When you leave money in an inefficient investment, you aren't. Of course, this is all based on the premise that income taxes are moral in the first place. (; -- #include /* Sten Drescher */ ObCDABait: For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. [Eze 23:20] Unsolicited solicitations will be proofread for a US$500/KB fee. From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Aug 14 10:00:48 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 01:00:48 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960814130043.00311c1c@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 08:33 13/08/96 -0700, James A. Donald wrote: >the fact that an engineer who is subject to the power of the Indian >government is not worth very much, as is demonstrated by the fact >that companies with Indian engineering teams often spend a lot of money >to get their employees out of India. > >Demand for Indian programmers is less than supply not because capital >has somehow failed to flow to India, but because an engineer in India >is not free to produce the value that engineers elsewhere are free >to produce. > Whoa! In economies that are highly de-coupled, incomes and prices can easily find quite different equilibria. Of course, the situation changes when trade increases. If you visited Italy in the mid-'70s, prices were much lower than, say, in Germany. Somewhere in the late '70s and early '80s, prices (and I hope wages too) rose to "international" levels. Why hasn't it happened in India? One reason for sure is that despite all the talk of free trade, free movement of people does not take place. Otherwise, plumbing, gardening, and all kinds of services could have been provided in Western countries by Indians, reducing supply and raising wages in India. It really doesn't have much to do with "the power of the Indian government" (except that I wish they had negotiated better at GATT so that when the free flow of goods was talked about, the flow of services was also treated at par). India has its faults, but it still is a relatively democratic and free country. And yes, capital has "somehow failed to flow to India," and for this the restrictive policies of government are to blame. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Aug 14 10:06:04 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 01:06:04 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: photographed license plates Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960814130126.0031caac@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 16:04 13/08/96 -0800, Jim McCoy wrote: >Here in the states the easy challenge to >such a ticket would be "it was not me driving when that photo was taken" and >the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that you were the driver. In Germany, as I recall, if you use this argument, the cops require you to thereafter maintain a log of who drives the car when. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From dcrocker at brandenburg.com Wed Aug 14 10:40:24 1996 From: dcrocker at brandenburg.com (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 01:40:24 +0800 Subject: PGP... In-Reply-To: <009A6C9C.E823907E.18@uni-lj.si> Message-ID: Responses you've gotten have foccussed on defining public versus private key. Some have cited how they are used, but I'd like to emphasize this: Message authentication: Make a "hash" of the message, i.e., compute a short, unique tag of the message. (A common algorithm for this is MD5.) Then "encrypt" the hash using the SENDER's private key. Anyone wishing to authenticate the message uses the SENDER's public key to "decrypt" the hash and check it against the message receive (i.e., recompute a new hash and compare it to the received one.) Message privacy: Encrypt the message data. (A common algorithm is DES or, more recently, triple DES. PGP uses IDEA.) To get acceptable performance, encryption is done using a symmetric key algorithm, rather than a much slower asymmetric (public) key algorithm. Then "encrypt" the symmetric key using the RECEIVER's public key. The RECEIVER uses their private key to decrypt the symmetric key and then uses the symmetric key to decrypt the data. Note that these two different functions use private keys in an essential opposite manner, or reverse relationship. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker +1 408 246 8253 Brandenburg Consulting fax: +1 408 249 6205 675 Spruce Dr. dcrocker at brandenburg.com Sunnyvale CA 94086 USA http://www.brandenburg.com Internet Mail Consortium http://www.imc.org, info at imc.org From jad at dsddhc.com Wed Aug 14 11:24:11 1996 From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 02:24:11 +0800 Subject: 2600 (the magazine) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960814143736.0036474c@labg30> At 12:27 AM 8/14/96 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >The current issue of 2600 is out. I bought mine at Barnes & Nobles. > >It has a couple of articles on cryptography as well as a port scanner >program for Linux. I browsed the article on "cryptography" briefly on Monday. I think using the term "cryptography" to describe it is a bit strong. The author is encouraging people to basically XOR data with a repeating key (a modified Vigniere) and then proclaims it forever unbreakable. I was somewhat unimpressed. "Why the hell doesn't Janet Reno outlaw this kind of irresponsible magazine? They're showing KIDS how to encrypt data, for God's sake!" Actually, one of us (he says, ducking the responsibility personally) should probably write an article for them on how to use PGP. (Maybe something that doesn't use words bigger than "warez".) I got it! A one pager. Paragraph one gives the URL to Joel's PGP QuickStart (a description and a link is on Joel's tools page at http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/tools.html and the executable itself is at ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/j/joelm/Install.exe [plug plug]) and says, "run this program to install PGP." The rest of the page can be devoted to "how to hide your kewl viruses from your clueless teachurz". Hmm. Maybe I will write that article. After all, they give out a free subscription to authors (and since I buy the rag anyway) it might be worth it. But if someone wants to beat me to it, go for it. I feel my ambition slipping steadily away, and I haven't even got out of the e-mail phase yet... :-) John -- J. Deters "Captain's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull." +-------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: jad at dsddhc.com (work) jad at pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'33"N by 93^16'42"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | PGP Key ID: 768 / 15FFA875 | +-------------------------------------------------------+ From wb8foz at nrk.com Wed Aug 14 11:31:10 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 02:31:10 +0800 Subject: Passports - "fake" vs "counterfeit" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608141447.KAA04659@nrk.com> I'm confused here. Vince runs a system. A user did something Vince's attorney said might be a no-no. Vince pulled the plug. Tim objects. Right? I suggest the cure is a law, to keep Vince from booting people off his system without due process. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From sparks at bah.com Wed Aug 14 11:38:17 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 02:38:17 +0800 Subject: Another CP Meeting request Message-ID: <199608141457.KAA29438@pop1.jmb.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 14 10:54:01 1996 Anyone Interested in a DC Metro meeting ?? ( VA, MD, DC ) > The South Florida Cypherpunks will meet at Hops Grill & Bar > in Boynton Beach, FL on Saturday, August 17 at 2:00 PM. As > always, our meeting place is at a microbrewery, and this one > has some very fine brews. Is there anyone who would be interested in a Paris(France) cpunks meeting? Ben. ____ Ben Samman.................................................ben at edelweb.fr Paris, France Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMhHoi+J+JZd/Y4yVAQHM3AQMDkTqRIAigy6G5GggdRaXrlBpQrypoXJV sbODRhUFxeP5+mHONfIIntyT+2AO7bW7RA+nSBMF6b/wNT779fGQ2/dZ7rPTzeAL Ob9ltsTr1tdf0T9zMmM+szZER9qJ9bGQ8w6tCektO+BbuV3x/OCwBXAzFS5t1yax 1w1A2+Z9dViyVw== =88D0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 14 11:38:59 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 02:38:59 +0800 Subject: Capital and Taxes Message-ID: <199608141511.IAA27228@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:01 AM 8/14/96 -0400, Brad Dolan wrote: >On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: >> Yes, taxes will _someday_ have to be paid...but many of us are hoping, >> praying, and pleading for a cut in the capital gains tax rate...at least a >> rollback to the 22% rate of yesteryear (and 4% or less in states). This >> huge "backlog" of unrealized capital gains (aka gains on paper, but not yet >> taxable) is what is being spoken of when people like Jack Kemp and Steve >> Forbes speak of "unleashing" the capital gains now tied up due to the high >> tax rates. > > >Now imagine that I want to make that $100K investment or, more >realistically, that I want to invest $100K in my kid's college education. >I'm going to have to earn wages of $160K and pay $60K in tax. It would >make me cranky if the guy next door could just clip $100K of coupons, tax >free, to pay for his kid's education. > >While I'm sure Steve Forbes could, I can't think of a moral argument why >income from selling stock should be taxed at a rate lower (or higher) than >than income from wages. Perhaps you've forgotten double-taxation. When a company makes a profit, it is taxed at the full corporate tax rate. Paid to a stockholder, it is AGAIN taxed at the citizen's rate. It's a ripoff, and the strange thing is a lot of citizen-dolts don't understand this or understand its implications. It would be fairer to tax either once the corporation, or the individual, but not both. Now, capital gains is merely the effect of increased value that hasn't yet been paid in dividend. It would make sense, therefore, to simply not tax "income from selling stock" since the taxes have already been paid. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From legg at sun1plus.liebert.com Wed Aug 14 11:56:33 1996 From: legg at sun1plus.liebert.com (Jim Legg) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 02:56:33 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto Message-ID: <9608141523.AA02130@sun1plus.liebert.com> > Subject: Clinton Is Trying to be Big Brother -- Phyllis Schlafly Column 8/8/96 > [snip!] Beware when politicos speak! Phyllis Schlafly would think nothing of trying to ban speech on the internet when it is something that she doesn't agree with. -jim- From perry at piermont.com Wed Aug 14 11:57:31 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 02:57:31 +0800 Subject: non-secure network utilities - pointers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608141527.LAA21142@jekyll.piermont.com> Sam Quigley writes: > What cypherpunk-approved (tm) -- that is, cryptographically strong, > freely available, and well-implemented (reliable) -- network utilities are > available? I'm willing to agree to US-only license agreement iff I have > to... Try SSH and friends -- they are a pretty good thing. http://www.ssh.fi/, I believe. Perry From mwohler at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 14 11:57:31 1996 From: mwohler at ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 02:57:31 +0800 Subject: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto Message-ID: <199608141549.IAA12562@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> At 07:59 AM 8/14/96 -0400, you wrote: >Subject: Clinton Is Trying to be Big Brother -- Phyllis Schlafly Column 8/8/96 It makes me ill to agree with Schlafly on any issue, but 'Even a stopped clock....... Unrepentant Liberial From maldrich at grci.com Wed Aug 14 12:04:22 1996 From: maldrich at grci.com (Mark O. Aldrich) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:04:22 +0800 Subject: Citation for NSA Type III & IV Crypto products Message-ID: C'punks: Most who are familiar with the Fed's crypto products are aware that the NSA categorizes crypto products by "type." Type I is specified as being for classified protections (and relying upon classified key) and Type II being for SBU/other (with unclassified-only key). I recall, however, that there were also categories called Type III and Type IV. I think that Type III had to do with industry use, with Government-generated key. Type IV I can't recall at all. Now, I can't find the citation where these things were described. The EPL cites only Type I & II, Dockmaster has proven of no use, and the search engines can't find anything on the Net. Does anyone recall where a discussion of these types can be found? TIA. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Just as the strength of the Internet is |Mark Aldrich | |chaos, so the strength of our liberty |GRCI INFOSEC Engineering | |depends upon the chaos and cacophony of |maldrich at grci.com | |the unfettered speech the First Amendment|MAldrich at dockmaster.ncsc.mil | |protects - District Judge Stewart Dalzell| | |_______________________________________________________________________| |The author is PGP Empowered. Public key at: finger maldrich at grci.com | | The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author | | and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From perry at piermont.com Wed Aug 14 12:04:57 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:04:57 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB88FA.42D3D100@groningen16.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: <199608141517.LAA21122@jekyll.piermont.com> Bart Croughs writes: > If you still don't understand this, I suggest you study my other > posts on this subject, or better still, you study the works of the > Austrian economists I've quoted before. I'm reminded of a wonderful scene from "A Fish Called Wanda" (pardon the inexactitude of the quote): "Idiots don't read philosophy." "Sure they do. They just don't understand it." Perry From perry at piermont.com Wed Aug 14 12:05:36 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:05:36 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB88FA.25D2E3C0@groningen16.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: <199608141525.LAA21133@jekyll.piermont.com> Bart Croughs writes: > > >Nowhere in the writings of any Austrian economist will you find > >anything claiming that the wages for a given job are linked to > >capital investment by the employer. > > I already gave some quotes of Austrian economists in another post, but = > maybe you didn't read it, so here I go again: > > Henry Hazlitt in 'economics in one lesson' (p. 139): "The best way to = > raise wages, therefore, is to raise marginal labor productivity. This = > can be done by many methods: by an increase in capital accumulation - = ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > i.e. by an increase in the machines with which the workers are aided..." You should read your own quotes. No one claimed that you can't increase productivity and income on average under some circumstances by increased capital investment. What was being made fun of was the simplistic misunderstanding of what the underlying mechanisms are. Prices, including the price of labor, are set purely by the marketplace. Under some circumstances, incomes will be determined by investment levels made by employers. Under others, they will not. The important feature is the market principle, not the capital investment. The point of my "green pylons" posting was to note that it is the market direction of the investment and not the investment that is important. Impediments to trade create wastes of capital just as surely as burning cash in the marketplace does. If you were really an Austrian, and not a confused person, you would know that all the Austrians and Chicago School people are for completely free trade, something you don't seem to get in your expositions on capital flows. Perry From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 14 12:06:53 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:06:53 +0800 Subject: Anguilla...etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1VHNsD33w165w@bwalk.dm.com> tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: > At 3:25 AM 8/14/96 Moscow Time, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTD wrote: > >"Greg Kucharo" writes: > >> While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the > >> authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble > >> purposes. ... > > > >Nor was there any activity from the authorities. > > > >A while back, when Vince first started advertizing his site, I asked him a f > >hypothetical questions, and he said roughly this: If client X posts somethin > >to Usenet from Vince's site, and if Y dislikes X's article so much that he > >mailbombs X, then Vince would pull X's plug. (I have the exact quote saved.) > >I lost interest right then. I'm not surprised that Vince acted dishonorably > >pulling a client's plug with no warning for a very flimsy reason. > > "Acted dishonorably"? > > Really, Dimitri, are all Russians this rude? (Seeing the battles on Usenet > between the "Sovoks" and the "Gruborbots," I'm beginning to think so.) > > While I think the Anguilla situation is an interesting one to analyze, I > avoid such loaded terms as "dishonorable." If you don't see why Vince's actions are dishonorable (and, by the way, far ruder than anything anyone could say on any mailing list), then there's no sense in my wasting time to explain it to you. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 14 12:12:55 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:12:55 +0800 Subject: [SIGNAL] Microsoft's Internet Explorer Message-ID: At 12:22 8/14/96, J�ri Kaljundi wrote: > Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Frank Stuart kirjutas: > >> According to C-Net Radio (http://www.cnet.com/), Microsoft will be including >> 128-bit SSL encryption in their Internet Explorer 3.0 for Win 95 and NT 4.0. > >As M$IE 3.0 is now available for download from www.microsoft.com, I did >notice there is also a 128-bit version there, which requires you to first >fill in data about you. Unfortunately microsoft.com is so slow right now, >that I did not have a chance to try to download 128-bit version by filling >in my favourite US politicians name. I don't see the 128 bit version. URL? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From jk at stallion.ee Wed Aug 14 12:23:23 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:23:23 +0800 Subject: [SIGNAL] Microsoft's Internet Explorer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Lucky Green asked: > I don't see the 128 bit version. URL? Neither do I anymore, but it was there yesterday. It was on the page, where you chose the version. After that there was a form asking for your (US citizens) name, address and phone number. After that the connection got so slow I could not submit the form. I believe Microsoft might have messed up something with the ITAR rules and because of problems they do not give out the 128-bit version anymore. Or it might have been an error and they really did not have an uncrippled version yesterday. J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From frissell at panix.com Wed Aug 14 12:40:47 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:40:47 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned Capital Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960814153840.008802ec@panix.com> At 02:12 PM 8/14/96 +-200, Bart Croughs wrote: >If investors use their capital to invest abroad, this capital cannot at the same > time be used to invest at home. Only after the investors decide not to invest > abroad any more, they can invest it at home. But I was not talking about > investors who decide to stop investing abroad and start investing at home. I > was talking about investors who decide to invest abroad instead of at home, > and the effect of such a decision on the wages in the US. There is no straightforward link between amount of capital invested and productivity or wages. If there were, some steel plants in the Soviet Union would have had the best paid and most productive workers on earth. Additionally, countries which prevent capital outflows don't receive capital inflows and thus become poorer. DCF From freematt at coil.com Wed Aug 14 12:41:24 1996 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:41:24 +0800 Subject: Thursday, 15 August: Join Matthew Gaylor in Club Wired's Electronic Frontiers Chat Message-ID: Thursday, 15 August 6 p.m. PDT Matthew Gaylor, in Electronic Frontiers Join Gaylor and host Jon Lebkowsky on Thursday, 15 August at 6 p.m. PDT (Friday 01:00 GMT) in Electronic Frontiers. http://www.hotwired.com/eff/ [Note from Matthew Gaylor: I'll be online at ClubWired discussing cyberlibertarianism and other pro-individual rights issues. I'm sure you'll want to join the discussion. I hope to see you there.] **************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229 **************************************************************************** From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 14 12:46:11 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:46:11 +0800 Subject: key escrow idea from David Satelin of MIT Lincoln Labs Message-ID: <199608141555.IAA00344@mail.pacifier.com> At 01:48 AM 8/14/96 -0400, Matt Blaze wrote: >>Remember, since the phoneco has had no competition, they've never been at >>risk from being shunned by customers who object to this secret cooperation. >>A more "realistic" position, I think, would be to conclude that if there was >>true competition, customers would be able to negotiate varying levels of >>non-cooperation in order to win customers. I suspect that post-Ruby >>Ridge/post-Waco, there would be a substantial fraction of the public who >>would conclude that it cannot trust its own government. >> > >Well, I don't know what went on before 1968, but these days phone companies >don't keep wiretap orders secret because they are being nice to the police, >they keep them secret because the court order for the weretap also orders >them to. Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but when a third party is >ordered to turn over records or access to something, the order often >includes a provision that prohibits them from revealing the order to the >subject. This is not unique to phone records; orders for bank records >frequently have secrecy provisions as well. Well, that's just the problem. These are clear violations of the 1st amendment. The law may authorize a search, but the Constitution is supposed to limits them to "reasonable" ones. And it says nothing about _secret_ ones, either. The effectiveness of the search itself can't possibly be compromised by releasing the fact of the search AFTER it occurs, which means that the inclusion of such a secrecy order can't even conceivably be supported under the US Constitution. Think of this as a two-pan balance: On the one side is the 1st amendment, a very important issue. One the other side is...nothing. Or, perhaps more accurately, no _constitutional_ issues. Remember, the Constitution does not guarantee the effectiveness of the entire investigative process; it merely addresses one portion of it, the search. (and even there, it doesn't guarantee a successful search!) If the government claims that the process is crippled by releasing the fact of the search, then I'm afraid that this is not an adequate reason to violate free-speech rights. (When the famous Miranda warning decision was made by the Supreme Court, cops said that it would cripple their investigations.) You may say, of course, "that's not how they currently interpet it," but my response is simple: Any talk of tolerating any sort of key-escrow (GAK) system must presume that the people running it are no more honest than they are today. If the cops (and the government in general) so generously misinterprets the government's "rights" with regard to wiretapping, there is simply no reason to believe that any restrictions they claim to be willing to respect now will actually be followed once such a plan is approved. Don't try to get out of this: You can't ignore past abuses. And if they were willing to do illegal taps before 1968, this tells you how inclined they are to obey the law. We've been handed an opportunity: The government wants to change its wiretap powers, and unlike previous times the public is actually aware of what's happening and can object. I think we must take this opportunity to entirely re-think the search-warrant/wiretap process. Rather than blindly accept the opinions of crooked judges who got where they are by demonstrating their willingness to "get along by going along," we should strip away all the decades of scheming, and delete the entire process. My opinion is that wiretaps are, inherently, unreasonable searches within the meaning of the Bill of Rights. Interestingly, support for this interpretation was shown when the media stated that Japan's Constitution prohibited wiretapping. This was portrayed as being somewhat of an oddity. But in reality, that Constitution was forced on Japan after WWII, by the US. Curiouser and curiouser, that happened during a time frame (pre 1968) in which wiretapping was illegal in the US, and probably believed to be unconstitutional as well. Since the US Constitution hasn't changed since then, at least with respect to searches, the only realistic conclusion is that the thing that's changed is the interpretation of the US Constitution, and not for any sound reasons either. (That Japanese Constitution, apparently not subject to such convenient re-interpretation, stands as it was when adopted, at least on this one issue.) In fact, the timing for this change is suspicious: 1968 was certainly a rather tumultuous year, what with anti-Vietnam war protests, assassinations and such. Not only in the US, but even more so in France, with the student riots. The motivation to adopt an unconstitutional wiretapping law must have been substantial. And given the fact that public polls on the concept of wiretaps repeatedly show it to be opposed by a majority of the population, I think the burden of proof is on the Denning-types to show that they're appropriate. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 14 12:51:44 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:51:44 +0800 Subject: DCSB: The Transnationality of Digital Cash Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----BY SAFEMAIL 1.0----- The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents Tatsuo Tanaka Center on Japanese Economy & Business Columbia University "The Transnationality of Digital Cash" Tuesday, September 3, 1996 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA Tatsuo Tanaka is from the Center for Global Communications at the International University of Japan. He is currently a Visiting Research Fellow at Columbia University's Center on Japanese Economy & Business. Government analysts like to stress the anonymity and security concerns of digital cash, particularly money laundering and tax evasion. However, probably the most important economic consequence of digital cash to nation-states is its transnationality. Theoretically speaking, any bank can issue digital cash any country's currency, even on a fractional reserve basis, without permission from that nation-state's central bank, and everybody in the world can use it as if that cash were issued by the country itself. This unprecedented transnationality could make a country's financial system unstable in terms of money supplies or exchange rates. Tanaka goes through a possible scenario in which nation-states and cyberspace conflict over the authority to issue digital cash, including a possible resolution of the problem. This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, September 3, 1996 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch. ;-). The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men, and "appropriate business attire" for women. We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, August 31, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be sent back. Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston". If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Planned speakers for DCSB are: October Philippe LeRoux Stock Exchanges and the Web November Philip S. Corwin Regulatory Barriers to Internet Commerce We are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, rah at shipwright.com . For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send "info dcsb" in the body of a message to majordomo at ai.mit.edu . If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in the body of a message to majordomo at ai.mit.edu . Looking forward to seeing you there! Cheers, Robert Hettinga Moderator, The Digital Commerce Society of Boston -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----BY SAFEMAIL 1.0----- Version: 2.6.i iQCVAwUBMhHz1/gyLN8bw6ZVAQGJlQQApgYjtBSEW+g3cF9qsO3SVF3dFn5ObPa6 WoP7nhldO2XbLgFQOsBqXWv+pUHu9aAxo2TaHFtqegCrr5eEbVutjKhFGdOCZqRT QoFElygD3hKE7sITW6VM9hQaq37eylRapNuvMLo6Q49/BwuDYcWQSkCVQsBlKkP7 lp7JBVIHkMY= =WlRo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Aug 14 13:11:16 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 04:11:16 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <199608141547.IAA25312@dns1.noc.best.net> At 08:33 13/08/96 -0700, James A. Donald wrote: > > the fact that an engineer who is subject to the power of the Indian > > government is not worth very much, as is demonstrated by the fact > > that companies with Indian engineering teams often spend a lot of money > > to get their employees out of India. > > > > Demand for Indian programmers is less than supply not because capital > > has somehow failed to flow to India, but because an engineer in India > > is not free to produce the value that engineers elsewhere are free > > to produce. At 07:00 PM 8/14/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: > Whoa! In economies that are highly de-coupled, incomes and prices > can easily find quite different equilibria. So? What does this have to do with the price of fish? Are Informix campuses "highly decoupled economies". The fact is a company like Informix has a campus in India, and it has campuses in the US that are largely staffed by Indian teams, and it will pay big bucks to get its people out of India, even though it has to pay them more than ten times as much in the US. An Indian programmer doing the same job for the same company is more than ten times as valuable to that company if he is not subject to the power of the Indian government, as proven by that companies actions. Plainly Informix does not like the power of the Indian government, which is no surprise as a few years ago just about every company on earth utterly detested the power of the Indian government and would not touch the place with a ten foot pole. > India has its faults, > but it still is a relatively democratic and free country. Under democracy, people get the government they deserve and get it good and hard. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From mp at the-wire.com Wed Aug 14 13:12:18 1996 From: mp at the-wire.com (M. Plumb) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 04:12:18 +0800 Subject: Toronto Signing Party (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:10:26 -0400 From: Richard Outerbridge Newgroups: alt.security.pgp Subject: Toronto Signing Party -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 1996/08/14 04:01:55 EDT Marc Plumb and I are trying to organize a "signing party" for anyone within range of downtown Toronto. The tentative date is the afternoon of Saturday September 7th. Location will depend on the size of the crowd: so RSVP to Marc or myself ( or ) and one of us will get back to you during the first week of September with the precise details. Be patient! Richard Outerbridge -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhGJcNNcQg4O6q8hAQE0LwP/WvmqDyLqqY28H0peWO/HJyhCInRITx7N aCCfDYdQxjym8/AAFBHy6Luye1DpRpok0RM9OFIMVMWOFzf7Ma7hYwD2KK56IJcy E9XDbak+DkbS/AKthxS5UXPN4Vy1VRUExxMGvXrcCIK2RvoxhT8ZbUp3pQAo/fn4 IYIHo/oTJ0Q= =qQOf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- "Just an eccentric soul with a curiosity for the bizarre." PGPpubkey 1024/0EEAAF21 1994/07/23 Fingerprint = 6A89 D49F D3DA 12E4 040A 273B F383 0127 From void at null.net Wed Aug 14 13:19:40 1996 From: void at null.net (The Prisoner (tm)) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 04:19:40 +0800 Subject: Crypto Ban Talk @ G-7 Message-ID: <32120058.66B2@null.net> Well, even tho Tim's language was hypothetical here's this item. Was some of this on the cpunks and I missed it? Very possible, & if so, sorry. ===============================================[quote:]================= In article , marc at tanda.on.ca (Marc Thibault) wrote: > I picked up a rumor that the G-7 has endorsed a resolution calling > for international cooperation to control private encryption. Does > anybody have solid information? > They've been discussing it. The US and some others want it. The Japanese and one other country won't go along. So far, talk but no action. Stay tuned. David [Sternlight that is ....] From sandfort at crl.com Wed Aug 14 13:40:46 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 04:40:46 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto In-Reply-To: <9608141523.AA02130@sun1plus.liebert.com> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Jim Legg wrote: > Beware when politicos speak! Good advice, but... > Phyllis Schlafly would think nothing of trying to ban speech on > the internet when it is something that she doesn't agree with. An interesting allegation. I wonder if it is merely rhetoric or if Jim has any evidence to backup this statement? Does Jim know who Phyllis' son is? S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 14 13:55:27 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 04:55:27 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <199608141547.IAA25312@dns1.noc.best.net> Message-ID: At 11:49 AM -0400 8/14/96, James A. Donald wrote: > Under democracy, people get the government they deserve and > get it good and hard. Wasn't it DeToqueville who said something like, "Democracy is just, because a constituency of idiots will elect one?" ;-) Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From mpd at netcom.com Wed Aug 14 13:59:47 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 04:59:47 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto In-Reply-To: <9608141523.AA02130@sun1plus.liebert.com> Message-ID: <199608141648.JAA22874@netcom20.netcom.com> > Beware when politicos speak! > Phyllis Schlafly would think nothing of trying to ban speech on the > internet when it is > something that she doesn't agree with. Horrors. I'm agreeing with Phyllis Schlafly. I know I'm going to kick myself tomorrow for saying this, but I found that to be a very nice rant against Big Brother in many of its manifestations. Of course, we still have Little Brother (the family), and Cousin Elmer (the Church), but isn't it nice to see that the RRR is on our side on such an important issue. Way to go Phyllis! :) -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From gary at systemics.com Wed Aug 14 14:16:52 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:16:52 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32120231.388F659A@systemics.com> Lucky Green wrote: > > At 9:27 8/13/96, Peter Trei wrote: > > >I vaguely remember another possibly relevant precedent, where a > >judge ruled that a warrant was required before a thermal imager > >could be used to look at a house suspected by the police of > >being a (pot) grow house. > > Wrong. No warrant was used and the bust was upheld in court. Hmm. A case involving Texas cops hovering above a greenhouse for a month using a 600mm telescope to peek through a 5-inch gap was thrown out of court on the grounds that the crop was not in "plain view". (Wheeler v State, Texas Court of Criminal appeals, 29/9/83). However, this was some time ago, so I'm sure the US constitution has been whittled down a tad more since then. Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Aug 14 14:17:02 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:17:02 +0800 Subject: Austin, TX: RoboFest 7 Message-ID: <199608141742.MAA07179@einstein> Hi all, I would like to pass the follwing along. If you have any questions then please let me know. If you are in Austin around this time, then stop by for a spell. Jim Choate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 21:38:53 From: "Sonia Santana" Subject: RE: RoboFest 7 speaking gig To: Jim Choate The dates for RoboFest 7 are Sept. 14th & 15th and it will be held at Dobie Mall this year. If you are interested please let me know or contact Glenn Currie at who is actually making the schedule for our guest speakers. There aren't any monetary perks but we plan to reward our guests with T-shirts, videos and movie passes to our film festival. Please let us know by August 15th if you are interested and can make it. Also please let us know a title or topic of your talk. And finally how do you want to be billed in the program. Hope you can make it. Sonia Santana Admin. Coordin. The Robot Group http://www.robotgroup.org From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Aug 14 14:33:08 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:33:08 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960814164931.0033e60c@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 08:49 14/08/96 -0700, James A. Donald wrote: >At 07:00 PM 8/14/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: >> Whoa! In economies that are highly de-coupled, incomes and prices >> can easily find quite different equilibria. > >So? What does this have to do with the price of fish? I was trying to explain how incomes and prices happened to be lower in India, which is the reason why companies like Informix like to hire Indian engineers. >The fact is a company like Informix has a campus in India, and >it has campuses in the US that are largely staffed by Indian teams, >and it will pay big bucks to get its people out of India, even >though it has to pay them more than ten times as much in the US. I imagine (not knowing why Informix does what it does) that the reason might have something to do with: 1) Bringing the programmer closer to the customer, to understand the problem better, or to commission the software, debug it under working conditions, whatever 2) If a team in the US is working on the project as well, sometimes it helps to have the entire team physically proximate. 3) With team members far away, you may have concerns about security of confidential information. I could think of another reason or two. > >An Indian programmer doing the same job for the same company is >more than ten times as valuable to that company if he is not >subject to the power of the Indian government, as proven by that >companies actions. Could you please be more precise? In what way does the "power of the Indian government" intrude? You use the term "proven" rather loosely... there could be other explanations for the company wanting to move its employees around. > >Plainly Informix does not like the power of the Indian government, >which is no surprise as a few years ago just about every company on >earth utterly detested the power of the Indian government and would >not touch the place with a ten foot pole. Huh? Yes, we do have a bureaucratic state, which is infuriating, and not just to the companies, but we've always had lots of companies happy to be here. This is a big market, and a nice place to live (and not just the natives say so). >Under democracy, people get the government they deserve and >get it good and hard. True -- democracy is a learning process, and the lessons sometimes come hard. I don't know of any other way to learn. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 14 14:40:35 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:40:35 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - commercial and mailbombing policies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vincent Cate writes: > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > > > > A while back, when Vince first started advertizing his site, I asked him > >a few hypothetical questions, and he said roughly this: If client X posts > >something to Usenet from Vince's site, and if Y dislikes X's article so > >much that he mailbombs X, then Vince would pull X's plug. (I have the > >exact quote saved.) I lost interest right then. I'm not surprised that > >Vince acted dishonorably by pulling a client's plug with no warning for a > >very flimsy reason. > > That question was about commercial ads, and I said "As long as I am not > mailbombed I don't care about how you post.". I did *not* say I would > pull the plug (full exchange below). From your other questions it looked > like there was no chance of you being a customer so I did not fully > explain. This is known as "creative editing". No, my question was not about "commercial spam", but about controversial Usenet posts in general. Since you seem to have my original e-mail, you have my permission to quote it in full. > If mailbombed then it goes toward your traffic. You get 100 MB/month of > traffic with a domain name, and if you go over that amount of traffic the > cost is $1/MB. If you have prepaid by check, and I don't know who you > are, and your account goes below $0, I would cut you off till more money > came in. I happen to be the owner of severallisteerv mailing lists, one of which is fairly active. A few days ago someone forged subscription requests to all three lists from a dozen notable personalities, including John Markoff, Joshua Quittner, Emmanuel Goldstein (Eric Corley), et al. My understanding is they were subscribed to several hundred mailing lists and some of them had their mailboxes filled up. It takes very little effort to send someone 200MB of e-mail these days. I think I got several times that last time I got mailbombed by Nikki Sandru. Do you customers realize they they might suddenly owe you hundreds of dollars for the receipt of junk e-mail sent by some prankster? This is another proof that Vince is a dishonorable man. An hnorable sysadmin would protect his users from mailbomb attacks and make sure they are junked or bounced. He wouldn't charge the victim money for being attacked. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From perry at piermont.com Wed Aug 14 14:42:21 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:42:21 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608141714.NAA01978@jekyll.piermont.com> > >From: Bart Croughs > >You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the U.S. is worse > >off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how can you proof that the US > >isn't worse off when US capital moves abroad? Simple. Keeping capital from flowing wherever it likes leads to a non-pareto optimal state. Care to dispute that? Perry From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Wed Aug 14 14:52:54 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:52:54 +0800 Subject: India, Productivity, and Tropical Climes Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960814170747.002b9dcc@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 18:59 13/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >that virtually none of the countries which the most vocal critics are from >have anything approaching the U.S. policy about immigration! You are right -- India's immigration policy is lousy too. However, this is an anachronism in increasingly globalizing economies. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From Ryan.Russell at sybase.com Wed Aug 14 14:53:21 1996 From: Ryan.Russell at sybase.com (Ryan Russell/SYBASE) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:53:21 +0800 Subject: Another thing the Net is being blamed for... Message-ID: <9608141812.AA15373@notesgw2.sybase.com> At least we didn't sue every ISP ala CoS. Also, I don't think he was "blaming" the Internet neccessarily... It's been published in books before. Ryan ---------- Previous Message ---------- To: cypherpunks cc: From: mirele @ xmission.com ("Deana Holmes") @ smtp Date: 08/09/96 06:52:44 PM Subject: Another thing the Net is being blamed for... Yet another thing that we're being blamed for. FYI, the temple ceremony has been reproduced many times since it was first exposed in the 1840s. The most recent revision (1990) was kept secret for only a short time before notorious former members got ahold of a tape and transcript of the ceremony. (I have a good idea of how they got it.) As far as I can tell, it didn't actually make it on to the Net until about 1994. This particular Mormon churchman (Russell Ballard) gave a speech a year or so ago warning Mormons in vague terms about the evils of the Internet. I suppose this is part of it. ===== >From this morning's Rolley&Wells column in the Salt Lake Tribune (without permission): "During a press tour this week of the LDS [Mormon] Church's new Mount Timpanogos Temple in American Fork, a member of the news media asked why a writtem copy of the temple ceremony was not given to members with temple recommends so they could study it in the privacy of their homes. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles informed the reporter that there was no need. A church member had 'broken the covenant' -- taped the ceremony, transcribed it, and put it on the Internet for all to read." Deana M. Holmes April 1996 poster child for clueless $cientology litigiousness alt.religion.scientology archivist since 2/95 mirele at xmission.com From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 14:59:38 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:59:38 +0800 Subject: Non-U.S. programmers working for Sun and Informix Message-ID: At 3:49 PM 8/14/96, James A. Donald wrote: >The fact is a company like Informix has a campus in India, and >it has campuses in the US that are largely staffed by Indian teams, >and it will pay big bucks to get its people out of India, even >though it has to pay them more than ten times as much in the US. > >An Indian programmer doing the same job for the same company is >more than ten times as valuable to that company if he is not >subject to the power of the Indian government, as proven by that >companies actions. My hunch is that a much stronger reason for Informix to want to get its programmers out of India and closer to its other U.S. programmers has to do with what Coase called "the nature of the firm." Friends of mine at Sun have reported to me on the severe problems they are having with their very inexpensive to hire Russian programmers. The hope had been that there were legions of well-trained, eager programmers and mathematicians who could be hired for, say, a few bags of cat food. Sun, like other companies, set up satellite operations in Russia and farmed-out various projects. What they're finding is that the programmers are reasonably well-trained (and may be much better trained than most U.S. programmers, at least in some areas...not too many CS majors in the U.S. know what a Lebesgue integral is, for example). However, their work is unacceptable, for various reasons. Sun has taken to bringing over the programmers for a stay in the U.S in order to acculturate them, innoculate them, whatever you wish to call it, in the ways of Sun and of other American high tech companies. So far, it isn't clear if the experiment can be salvaged. Now certainly part of this is just the "remote control" problem, that of a bunch of people off on their own at the end of a very long feedback loop. Phone calls help, code reviews help, video conferencing helps, but perhaps not enough. And since the difference between a "mediocre" programmer and a "great" programmer can far, far exceed any slight savings in salary, the incentives are clear: hire locals who can work locally, or bring offshore programmers to the local facility. I suspect Sun's experiences with Russians are pretty similar to Informix's experiences with Indians, with Tata Institute replacing Moscow State. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 15:05:44 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:05:44 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? Message-ID: Vince Cate has written several things in the past couple of days about the situation in Anguilla; actually, I think we've learned more about the operation of his service in the last few days than we have in the past year or so. Some instructive points, and some worries. This message contains: * discussion of the situation Vince describes * what I surmise to be some of the behind the scenes realpolitik * the role of physical vs. cyberspace data havens Rather than respond point by point to one of Vince's messages, I'll first make a few general points, free-form: 1. As I have said, I admire what Vince has done. Evolutionary learning can't happen without experiments and tests, so his experiment is important. 2. If Vince ends up moving in a direction different from that of operating a traditional (!) data haven, I will not be very surprised. Were I in his position, I might well do the same thing. (Lots of reasons, issues....)\ 3. Vince seems to be a in a somewhat precarious position, awaiting renewal of a one-year work permit. In any country, this is a shaky basis for continuing a project. I certainly don't know what his relationship is to the local authorities, but I sure know I'd feel constrained if I were up for renewal like this. (Consider how the U.S. refuses to renew visas for "undesirables," including writers whose writings the establishment dislikes, AIDS activists, anarchists (!!!), etc.) 4. The small size of Anguilla--I surmise and feel--works against operating the kind of "data haven" many of us feel could exist. Given that data havens will have all sorts of unusual, undesirable, and subversive materials, this "small community" will probably react unfavorably to any publicity generated. (And it's in the nature of some of these customers to "advertise" themselves flamboyantly--unlike Swiss banking--so as to generate customers...this pretty much guarantees that there will be stories like "Anguilla--New Source for Neo-Nazi Material!") 5. In the U.S., there are 250 million people, extensive support networks for protecting free speech (much as we like to focus on the suppression cases), and a legal system that really does make it pretty hard for a bureaucrat or even the President to pick up a phone and have a business he doesn't like shut down. I surmise, given the size of Anguilla and the non-constitutional basis of its government, etc., that it _might_ be a lot easier for a bureaucrat or the Governor-General, or whomever, to seriously disrupt any business by a few phone calls. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect it to be true. (The closest I've been to Anguilla is the Bahamas, and it is reported to be seriously corrupt. I can't imagine a data haven surviving there if the Ruling Families decided they didn't like it.) 6. So, what does this mean? It means, I believe, that small Carribbean islands are likely to be poor choices for data havens. The more "civilized" they are, ironically, the poorer a choice they are. (Think: pirate islands, where "anything goes," so long as the right payoffs are made.) 7. Multidimensionality. With banking havens, there is basically only a single degree of freedom to consider, at least insofar as deciding which policies to consider. That is, over a period of many decades a banking industry arises in some country (Switzerland, Austria, Lichtenstein, etc.), with bankers, vaults, protocols for deposit and withdrawal, etc. And with lots of fees to lubricate the whole system, provided payoffs to various officials and royals, etc. Contrast this with a small data haven (a new industry) in a small country, with operating margins that are razor-thin (given the pricing structure Vince announced, I doubt Taxbomber and other customers were paying enough to ensure a flow of payoffs to the Ruling Families of Anguilla and the various officials that need to look the other way). 8. That is, how will a data haven handle situations where diverse "threats" and "abominations" are traced to the haven? Bomb information, pornography, child porn, trade secrets, pyramid schemes, and so on? (Vince can of course say to each of these: "Not what I want," but he may find that such ad hoc declarations chase away most of his business...) 9. In summary, I applaud Vince's experiment. But I wouldn't call it a data haven, based on what I've seen. Maybe a tax haven, but even this I have yet to see much evidence for (Vince is not free to disclose who his customers are, of course, so we are somewhat isolated.). I will say that if the only goal is to avoid sales tax and/or income taxes, operating out of Anguilla may not be ideal. After all, suppose there's a dispute (a la Taxbomber): is one supposed to fly to Anguilla, hire local attorneys, and sue in the local courts? The tens of thousands of dollars this would cost would likely swamp any tax savings.....depends on a lot of factors, but I think you all see the point. Well, I've written enough. Vince asked me a few specific questions, so I'll briefly answer: >Tim, we would all be very happy if you were to locate a country that could >be the site of the ideal datahaven, and finance a couple cypherpunks to >setup there. It would be a big help to our cause. Could you do this? Yes and no. Yes, if a good business opportunity presented itself, with reasonable payback, good ideological basis, and without too many entanglements (e.g., having to fly to Country A to check on my investment too often). No, in that there is no "liquid market" in such investment opportunities. That is, I can't just say "Send me your plans and how much money you want." I might consider partly funding a venture by people well-known to me, but, so far, no such possibilities have presented themselves. >In the mean time, people may have to exist in cyberspace (like >www.taxbomber.com) without having a totally secure physical location. >This is not the end of the world, or really even that painful. If done >right you could be down for only an hour - just long enough for >nameservers to change. Taxbomber is now setup to do it very fast next >time, if the need ever comes. Tim, I think you have even advocated this >approach, not stressing the physical location, just the cyberspace >location. No? Yes, I agree. I actually wrote my "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" in mid-1988, just a month or so before reading Sterling's "Islands in the Net," which was focussed on physical data havens (he may've been the one to coin the term, actually). My thinking was already heavily influenced by Vinge's "True Names," and Chaum's work on untraceable digital cash (1985) was well-known to me (for reasons I've written about elsewhere), so I tended to view data havens as not being tied to physical communities where the local potentates could revoke work permits, visas, travel permits, business licenses, etc. The Anguilla Experiment is certainly not changing this opinion. (And Stephenson's "Snow Crash." in 1992, further popularized this vision of cyberspace havens....I can't say he devised any new forms that some of us hadn't already been thinking about, but he sure did make it a more vivid vision through his evocative fiction.) What the form of these "cyberspace data havens" might take is unclear. Several pieces of technology are missing, just as they were missing four years ago when one of the early list members contacted me to tell me how easy it would be to set up a data haven with computers. (It wasn't easy then, and it ain't easy now. The pieces that are missing are the reifications of protocols we talk about a lot....mere encryption and authentication are only the starting points, and look at how hard it's been just to get _them_ deployed.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From blancw at microsoft.com Wed Aug 14 15:35:44 1996 From: blancw at microsoft.com (Blanc Weber) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:35:44 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: >From: Bart Croughs > >You are wrong. I'm not in error; I don't think the US is worse off when US > capital moves abroad. I just want to know how you can proof it, so I would >be > able to rebut protectionist arguments. I don't know how to prove it. And, >unfortunately, neither do you. Rhetoric is no proof. ............................................... I said in my post: > "I think people who put up a lot of objections [...] do not want any proof of their error." Are you the one putting up the objections? Are you the one who does not want to see the proof which you are asking for? I would think that after having read Mises, Hayek, et al, the economic cause&effect principles which they outlined would make the resulting situation pretty clear. .. Blanc > > > From paul at ljl.COM Wed Aug 14 15:35:44 1996 From: paul at ljl.COM (Paul Robichaux) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:35:44 +0800 Subject: Verisign CA practices documents Message-ID: Verisign's put their Certification Practice Statement up at . This document appears to set forth the policies Verisign's implementing when it acts as a CA. I haven't fully reviewed it yet, but my hat's off to Verisign for coming clean and clearly stating their policies. -Paul -- Paul Robichaux LJL Enterprises, Inc. paul at ljl.com Be a cryptography user. Ask me how. From koontz at netapp.com Wed Aug 14 15:50:01 1996 From: koontz at netapp.com (Dave Koontz) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:50:01 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates Message-ID: <9608141930.AA23408@supernova.netapp.com> >I note those plastic cover for plates "to keep them clean" >seem to be more & more popular. These are not allowed in California (although the chance of getting popped must be quite slim, by the number you see). I remember seeing some water based spray paints in dun colors (such as a nice mud tan) - Gee, officer, its just mud, . (Why water colors should be in spray cans is beyond me, unless intended for taggers). From adamsc at io-online.com Wed Aug 14 16:31:12 1996 From: adamsc at io-online.com (Chris Adams) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:31:12 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto Message-ID: <199608142017.NAA08295@cygnus.com> On 14 Aug 96 09:11:30 -0800, bdolan at use.usit.net wrote: > Amendment guarantees our right to speak in public but not in > private. It would be just as ridiculous to say that we have > freedom to speak in words that the government can understand, but > not in words the government can't decipher. This definitely does beg the question of what the FBI would ask us to do if, for instance, the drug dealers started hiring Navajo speakers to play "Code-talkers" over a GAKed phone... | Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp | Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" From ghopper at frbphil.org Wed Aug 14 16:39:39 1996 From: ghopper at frbphil.org (Greg Hopper) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:39:39 +0800 Subject: Capital and Taxes Message-ID: <199608142030.QAA25012@mail.voicenet.com> When you consider that capital gains tax rate schedules are not indexed for inflation, the situation's even worse than Tim's analysis implies. Since you pay tax on the nominal rather than the real capital gain, the effective capital gains tax rate is really higher than the quoted rate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Hopper |Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are Research Department |my own and not necessarily those of Federal Reserve Bank |the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia of Philadelphia |or the Federal Reserve System. 10 Independence Mall | Philadelphia, PA 19106 | (215) 574-3905 (voice) | (215) 574-4364 (fax) | email: ghopper at frbphil.org | From vldiaz at adnc.com Wed Aug 14 16:45:30 1996 From: vldiaz at adnc.com (Vincent L. Diaz) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:45:30 +0800 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <32122E22.E93@adnc.com> subcribe cypherpunks at toad.com vldiaz at adnc.com end -- Regards, VINCENT L. DIAZ U-SAVE COMMUNICATIONS Business Line: 619-277-2411 Fax Line: 619-277-0298 http://www.cognigen.com/agencies/ Title: www-buyinfo mail archive: (cpx) Cypherpunk recruiting opportunity (cpx) Cypherpunk recruiting opportunity Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) Thu, 2 Nov 1995 18:47:43 -0500 Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ] Next message: Robert Hettinga: "Re: (cpx) Re: ecash remailer" Previous message: Robert Hettinga: "(cpx) Re: ecash remailer" --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 17:44:03 -0500 (EST) From: cjl To: Cypherpunks mailing list Subject: Cypherpunk recruiting opportunity Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Precedence: bulk C-punx, Considering the amount of "preaching to the choir" that goes on here I thought that the following news item might supply a more suitable outlet for some of the more evangelical-minded Cypherpunks. After all, it is perfectly clear that the science of cryptography exemplifies some of the more exciting applications of otherwise-dry mathematics, and there is always a need for "voices of reason" in the councils of those who would make the 'Net safe for children. ___________________ Tech Help for Schools While high-tech education visionaries are issuing apocalyptic warnings about the fate of the alledgedly backward US school system, a privately sponsored group has launched a Peace Corps-style initiative to ease schools into the 21st century. The Massachusetts-based Tech Corps, which recruits volunteers to help schools harness computers and telecommunications technology, announced last month that it is going national. The corps, whose chief sponsor is the Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association, will hold a conference in Washington DC on 30 October where people can learn how to start state chapters. Founded by Gary J. Beach, chief executive officer of Computerworld Inc., the corps last year recruited 300 volunteers theough the magazine Computerworld who have been working in 12 school districts throughout Masachusetts. Karen Smith, Tech Corps' national director, says the response to the call for volunteers from people in industry, government agencies, and private consulting firms, has been "incredible." They help school districts in any way they are asked - such as by installing wiring, training teachers, persuading local industry to donate hardware, and helping schools construct World Wide Web homepages. Interested parties can reach Tech Corp' own web page at: http://www.ustc.org C. J. Leonard ( / "DNA is groovy" \ / - Watson & Crick / \ <-- major groove ( \ Finger for public key \ ) Strong-arm for secret key / <-- minor groove Thumb-screws for pass-phrase / ) --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) Shipwright Development Corporation, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA (617) 323-7923 "Reality is not optional." --Thomas Sowell >>>>Phree Phil: Email: zldf at clark.net http://www.netresponse.com/zldf <<<<< Next message: Robert Hettinga: "Re: (cpx) Re: ecash remailer" Previous message: Robert Hettinga: "(cpx) Re: ecash remailer" From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 14 16:49:58 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:49:58 +0800 Subject: non-secure network utilities - pointers? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960814185533.00b17c9c@mail.teleport.com> At 11:27 AM 8/14/96 -0400, Perry wrote: > >Sam Quigley writes: >> What cypherpunk-approved (tm) -- that is, cryptographically strong, >> freely available, and well-implemented (reliable) -- network utilities are >> available? I'm willing to agree to US-only license agreement iff I have >> to... > > >Try SSH and friends -- they are a pretty good thing. > >http://www.ssh.fi/, I believe. That is for the commercial version. The free version (for Unix) can be found at http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/ . There is also a Windows version in beta, as well as one for OS/2. (There is a Mac version in development, but no pointers on when or where it will be available.) --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From dfloyd at io.com Wed Aug 14 17:46:46 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:46:46 +0800 Subject: key escrow idea from David Satelin of MIT Lincoln Labs In-Reply-To: <199608141555.IAA00344@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <199608142138.QAA04243@xanadu.io.com> > > You may say, of course, "that's not how they currently interpet it," but my > response is simple: Any talk of tolerating any sort of key-escrow (GAK) > system must presume that the people running it are no more honest than they > are today. If the cops (and the government in general) so generously > misinterprets the government's "rights" with regard to wiretapping, there is > simply no reason to believe that any restrictions they claim to be willing > to respect now will actually be followed once such a plan is approved. > Don't try to get out of this: You can't ignore past abuses. And if they > were willing to do illegal taps before 1968, this tells you how inclined > they are to obey the law. Slightly off topic: I haven't seen this horror of GAK discussed here, but this is (IMHO) as important as possible abuse by LEA's. Let's factor the LEA's out for a bit. The US government gets their mandatory key access, and keeps their keys in three databases in various locations. Most foreign powers would pay someone a handsome sum to hand over these keys. I would bet that France or Iran would offer a billion dollars to someone who would turn over the part of the database they preside over. I bet that France/Iran/etc. would be able to pool together 3 billion dollars and a nice getaway for the stooges who can grab a tape with the escrowed keys on it. Heck, Ames turned traitor for less. (I am assuming the keys as small, 1K bytes each... an 8mm Exabyte mammoth tape would be able to carry 30 million keys.) Even an "el cheapo" Travan TR3 tape would be able to snarf 1.6 million keys... and that's a lot of people compromised! Soon, you have the US's whole security structure totally compromised. Any business transactions, any communications are now subject to tapping by foreign agents, and all US crypto would be absolutely powerless. And you thought ITAR put companies at a disadvantage. US companies would be stomped on by competition which seems to have the same product just slightly earlier or slightly more refined, or they would move out of the US, so they can use strong crypto. Even if one assumes that the LEA's are incorruptable, there are always people who are willing to watch their country go down in flames for money. From an681132 at anon.penet.fi Wed Aug 14 17:50:00 1996 From: an681132 at anon.penet.fi (an681132 at anon.penet.fi) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:50:00 +0800 Subject: Why should we trust the system? Message-ID: <9608142123.AA21144@anon.penet.fi> > Preiously, jim bell > However, hours after it was publicly revealed that the Atlanta > 911 center screwed up, wasting 10 minutes looking up the address of > "Centennial park," After watching the news during the coverage of the 911 call, I couldn't help but notice the free computer advertisement. I don't suppose that GATEWAY 2000 will be doing too much bragging about supplying systems to the Atlanta 911 call center. Gosh, I wonder what systems my local 911 call center uses? Would they be able to find my address? --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From an681132 at anon.penet.fi Wed Aug 14 17:58:24 1996 From: an681132 at anon.penet.fi (an681132 at anon.penet.fi) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:58:24 +0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <9608142122.AA20589@anon.penet.fi> > Preiously, jim bell > However, hours after it was publicly revealed that the Atlanta > 911 center screwed up, wasting 10 minutes looking up the address of > "Centennial park," After watching the news during the coverage of the 911 call, I couldn't help but notice the free computer advertisement. I don't suppose that GATEWAY 2000 will be doing too much bragging about supplying systems to the Atlanta 911 call center. Gosh, I wonder what systems my local 911 call center uses? Would they be able to find my address? --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From adam at homeport.org Wed Aug 14 18:14:20 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:14:20 +0800 Subject: SSL / Java(tm) Toolkit Available NOW (fwd) Message-ID: <199608142328.SAA14124@homeport.org> FYI. ----- Forwarded message from Joel Fan ----- >From list at glacier.mcom.com Wed Aug 14 17:52:49 1996 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:37:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Joel Fan X-Sender: jfan at columbia.digiweb.com To: ssl-talk at netscape.com Subject: SSL / Java(tm) Toolkit Available NOW Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YXOYJ2.0.c67.nPa4o"@glacier> Resent-From: ssl-talk at netscape.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1623 X-Loop: ssl-talk at netscape.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: ssl-talk-request at netscape.com Hello , The SSLava(tm) 1.0 Toolkit implements the SSL 3.0 protocol in the Java programming language and is available NOW, without charge, for non-commercial use, including testing. Commercial licenses for SSLava are available as well. Please contact http://www.phaos.com/ for more information or send mail to jfan at phaos.com. Thanks, Joel Fan ---------------------- Phaos Technology Corp. ---------------------- [Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems Inc.] ----- End of forwarded message from Joel Fan ----- -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From eb at comsec.com Wed Aug 14 18:41:09 1996 From: eb at comsec.com (Eric Blossom) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:41:09 +0800 Subject: Crypto 96 carpooling from Bay Area? Message-ID: <199608142107.OAA13878@comsec.com> Hi, Anybody from the SF Bay Area interested in carpooling down to Crypto? Eric 707-577-0409 From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 14 18:52:04 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:52:04 +0800 Subject: (Off Topic) Re: FCC_ups Message-ID: <199608142306.QAA07654@toad.com> At 10:45 AM 8/13/96 -0700, shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) wrote: >>The *real* challenge: how do you support sender- and recipient- anonymous >>phone calls with strong security? Have fun. > >Sender anonymous phone calls are easy. You route them through PipeNet, >assuming every PipeNet node has a telephony gateway. Recipient anonymous >phone calls a harder to implement. Assuming PipeNet is a descendant of the Packet Laundry concept, recipient-anonymous phone calls are also easy - build a meet-me box, AKA conference bridge. Recipient John Doe #3 reserves a conference bridge, sends anon-email to John Doe #6 and John Doe #43, saying "meet me at Bridge7.conference.netphone.com at midnight Zulu time, password 'foobar'" and they all call in. Payment: If the conference bridge is run by a vanilla commercial Internet-telephony service, it may want some sort of non-private payment, but would probably accept phone cards. Otherwise you're stuck with credit cards. If it's run by an enlightened service provider or some sort of punknet, it'll take anonymous digicash. Maybe the host pays, maybe everybody. Or you could digitally record the sounds of dropping quarters in a payphone :-) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From ariel at compcurr.com Wed Aug 14 19:00:57 1996 From: ariel at compcurr.com (ariel at compcurr.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:00:57 +0800 Subject: Inside Currents Vol.1,No.5 Message-ID: <199608131847.LAA01140@mail.compcurr.com> ******************************************************* Inside Currents Vol 1, No. 5 August 13, 1996 Inside Currents Newsletter An electronic update from Computer Currents Interactive http://www.currents.net ******************************************************* CONTENTS: 1. Tech Support, on and off line: This week's cover story in Computer Currents Magazine http://www.currents.net/covr 2. Gigglebytes turns 10! http://www.currents.net/gigg 3. Check out our online Shopping Mall http://www.currents.net/mall 4. Computer Catalogs Online http://www.currents.net/catalogs 5. Coming soon, from Computer Currents Interactive 6. Computer Currents Interactive membership information http://www.currents.net/members ***************************************************** 1. Tech Support, on and off line: Do you need help navigating the sea of available tech support resources? Read our exclusive Computer Currents cover story for information about third party software and hardware support companies who sell phone support, plus fee and free online help you can find on the internet. Also, new in our Columns section: "Corporate PC" looks at Post-It Software Notes; "Gizmos" explores the chaotic world of videoconferencing; Net Surfer tries Offline Web Browsing. http://www.currents.net/covr 2. Gigglebytes turns 10! This month Computer Currents magazine celebrates the 10th anniversary of Gigglebytes. Join author Lincoln Spector as he revisits his favorite articles over the past decade. Gigglebytes gives readers a humorous view on computer industry events, trends and people. http://www.currents.net/gigg 3. Check out our online Shopping Mall Our new shopping mall area is still under construction, but we're already bringing together an exciting range of regionally based goods and services. Of special note: Our Net Quote service allows you to solicit price bids on computer equipment--you can let the stores come to you. http://www.currents.net/mall 4. Computer Catalogs Online If you're thinking of buying a new computer, check out the new section we've got up and running! Now our users can research computer stores in their area (or mail order), and browse available hardware listings. You can find local contact numbers with just the click of a mouse! http://www.currents.net/catalogs 5. Coming soon, from Computer Currents Interactive Discount coupons you can print out and use with local retailers; more ways to order online through CCI; our enhanced "Computer Advisor" section; stimulating chat rooms and forums; contests and surveys; more FREE stuff. 6. Computer Currents Interactive membership CCI Membership is FREE and benefits abound! Create and edit your own Gallery page, post your resume in our Talent Bank, receive special product discounts from CCI vendors, participate in contests and surveys, and much more! If you're not already a member, join CCI today. http://www.currents.net/members ***************************************************** How to subscribe to Inside Currents: To Subscribe: 1. Join CCI at https://www.currents.net/members 2. Check yes to "subscribe to Inside Currents" box. To Unsubscribe: 1. If you are NOT interested in receiving Inside Currents, cut and paste this sentence and e-mail us at caliban at compcurr.com. We'll remove your address from our list. Please be sure to include your user name. 2. If you need further assistance, please send e-mail to ariel at compcurr.com ******************************************************* Computer Currents Interactive http://www.currents.net The full-service online resource for computer users! ******************************************************* From declan at well.com Wed Aug 14 19:07:50 1996 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:07:50 +0800 Subject: HRW letter to Singapore government; German telecom URL Message-ID: Attached is the letter Human Rights Watch/Asia sent to Singapore yesterday. Kudos to HRW for taking the lead in calling attention to the actions of the censorhappy Singaporeans. More background is at: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ Also, you can find an English version of the German telecommunications act at: http://www.government.de/inland/ministerien/post/tkge00.html -Declan --- August 13, 1996 BY FAX: +65-375-7765 Mr. George Yeo Minister for Information and the Arts 460 Alexandra Road, 37th Story PSA Building Singapore 119963 Dear Mr. Yeo, I am writing on behalf of Human Rights Watch/Asia to protest the recent decision by the Singapore government to establish strict controls on Internet use. The implementation of the Class License Scheme, which, according to a July 11 government news release, "will focus on content which may undermine public morals, political stability and religious harmony,"ensures a leading role for Singapore among international promoters of online censorship. This is a particularly unfortunate role for Singapore, which has been a leader in the development and promotion of Internet use in Asia. It places Singapore in the same category as countries like China, where Internet users must endure onerous restrictions. One of the most unique and valuable characteristics of the Internet is its ability to establish easy, inexpensive and practically instantaneous communication between the farthest points of the earth. By prohibiting connections between its citizens and various Web sites outside its borders, Singapore is in essence removing itself from the global Internet. If, as will surely happen, its example is followed in other countries, the Internet, which held such promise as the world's first truly global medium, will be nothing more than a set of country-specific networks where local prejudices and fears are reinforced by technology. Our specific objections concern Singapore's decision to regulate the Internet as if it were a broadcast medium. Unlike broadcast media, the Internet is the first truly mass medium. Through e-mail, it allows individuals with nothing more than a computer and a modem to express their views to an international audience. Even the World Wide Web differs significantly from a broadcast medium in that individuals are not confronted with a particular site upon connecting to the Web--they may choose whichever sites they choose to visit. As with other forms of Internet communication, anyone may put up his or her own site on the Web. The Singapore government's own use of Web pages demonstrates how the Internet can be used to propound a particular point of view. Its citizens, so long as they are not using their site to incite to violence, should have the same opportunity to express views as their government. As stated in Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression: this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. We are particularly concerned that restrictions have been placed on Singaporeans who wish to discuss religious and political ideas online. It is only through unrestricted discussions of such serious topics by all members of society, no matter how unpopular their views, that these subjects become less explosive. Forbidding discussion--in effect, treating its citizens like children--will, on the other hand, ensure that dangerous topics remain just that. We are also concerned that the extraordinarily broad categories of forbidden content, as outlined by the SBA, will encourage arbitrary restrictions on communication. According to the Internet Content Guidelines, the following topics are banned. Public Security and National Defense a. Contents which jeopardize public security or national defense. b. Contents which undermine the public confidence in the administration of justice. c. Contents which present information or events in such a way that alarms or misleads all or any of the public. d. Contents which tend to bring the Government into hatred or contempt, or which excite disaffection against the Government. Racial and Religious Harmony a. Contents which denigrate or satirize any racial or religious group. b. Contents which bring any race or religion into hatred or resentment. c. Contents which promote religious deviations or occult practices such as Satanism. Public Morals a. Contents which are pornographic or otherwise obscene. b. Contents which propagate permissiveness or promiscuity. c. Contents which depict or propagate gross exploitation of violence, nudity, sex or horror. d. Contents which depict or propagate sexual perversions such as homosexuality, lesbianism, and pedophilia. By banning such subjects a chill will be sent through the online community in Singapore, and will render the Internet essentially useless in allowing any kind of serious discussion. In addition to forbidding particular content, the government has also announced that some sites will be banned. Internet service providers were given the deadline of September 14, 1996, to begin using proxy servers--devices that can prohibit connections to specified sites--to connect all their subscribers. Although the government has promised to use a light hand in regulating the Internet, its activities even at this early stage indicate otherwise. A July 12 posting in the Usenet newsgroup "soc.culture.singapore" was reportedly removed at the request of the SBA, who asked local Internet service providers for its removal because it alleged that lawyers at a local law firm were incompetent. The request came, according to the Straits Times, after the law firm complained to the government. Despite the removal from the newsgroup, the message is still widely available to Singaporeans through other Internet sources, indicating that content control will be difficult unless Internet access is restricted even further. We hope that the Singapore government will retract these repressive new regulations, and support the development of an unfettered Internet. Instead of using its power to restrict Internet use, the government could play a truly useful role by devising ways to expand its use to even the most disaffected members of its population. Sincerely, Sidney Jones Executive Director cc: Mr. Goh Liang Kwang, Chief Executive Officer, Singapore Broadcasting Authority Ambassador Bilahari Kausikan, Permanent Mission of Singapore to the United Nations From fstuart at vetmed.auburn.edu Wed Aug 14 19:17:23 1996 From: fstuart at vetmed.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:17:23 +0800 Subject: Crypto Policy Variant Message-ID: <199608142317.SAA02277@snoopy.vetmed.auburn.edu> [...] >Here is Staelin's idea: >(1) You can use any crypto you want, but you must keep a record >of the crypto keys you used. >(2) The government can ask for the crypto keys later, if they have >a court order, just as they can ask for any of your other papers >or documents. You must give the key(s) to them, just as you >must turn over your private papers in such a situation. >(There would have to be an appropriate penalty for losing the >key...) [...] >Is this workable?? [...] Here's my key, your honor. I used a one-time pad to do the encryption. As you can plainly see, the encrypted file that the prosecution made such a big deal about contains nothing but some of my favorite verses from the King James Bible. You shouldn't infer anything from the fact that another key would make the file contain the evil stuff that was alleged (even though it is a bit strange that the last verse ends in the middle of a word). | (Douglas) Hofstadter's Law: | It always takes longer than you expect, even Frank Stuart | when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. From ecgwulf at postoffice.worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 14 19:27:57 1996 From: ecgwulf at postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Llywarch Hen) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:27:57 +0800 Subject: Capital and Taxes Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960814232605.1a77b8fc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Quotes taken from recent Tim May posts here. First we'll assume that economic benefits result in social benefits, otherwise what's the point?: >And the cloud of ideas connected with somehow forcing capital investment to >remain in the U.S....well, the best way to do this is to alter the tax laws >so that America (for example) becomes a magnet for investment. (If one is >looking to help America, that is.) Now the example of how capital gains taxes hinder investment. First we'll portray an income tax as a property tax: >something else that's terribly important: taxes must be paid on other >assets sold to raise the $100K. For example, if I own shares in Intel, >bought many years ago, I have to sell $160,000 worth of Intel stock, send a >$60,000 check to Uncle Sam and Uncle Pete . . . But this was an income tax. The capital gains are taxed at a rate less than earned wages and are free of the regressive social security and FICA taxes. Tim really doesn't want to pay his fair share, and here's the reason: >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . and then send the remaining >$100,000 to my friends. If the new investment *doubles*, my $100,000 gain >is taxed at 38% and I'm left with a gain of about $62,000. >It doesn't take a number theorist to see that I may as well have not even >bothered. So long as I just sit on the Intel stock, no taxes are owed. >Sounds like a no brainer to me. Yep, we've adopted the fuzziest-headed of liberal ideas in promoting government as an agent of change to improve things for Tim and his pals by asking wage earners to subsidize his economic activities by distributing the costs to the public so he can enjoy the profits. But this is just the result of the massive jobs program whose beneficiaries prefer to call the Cold War, MAD, and so on. The most Keynesian solution of the century combined with a not so subtle transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich and renamed 'supply-side' so its clients don't have to admit they have been on welfare for the last twelve or fifteen years. Combined with a massive twelve-year capital bull market in which it would have been difficult to lose money, we have a class of people who have confused personal wealth with personal merit and the notion that they did it on their own. Is this simple dishonesty masquerading as intellectual dishonesty or just standard innocent and dim-witted Republican-Libertarian opportunism buttressed by quotations from free-market theologians? >. . . >huge "backlog" of unrealized capital gains (aka gains on paper, but not yet >taxable) is what is being spoken of when people like Jack Kemp and Steve >Forbes speak of "unleashing" the capital gains now tied up due to the high >tax rates. >Personally, I favor open borders--but no public schooling, no tax-funded >handouts, no welfare, no child support, no public hospitals, etc. This supposes that Tim paid the workers hired to clear brush from his land enough so that they could afford private schooling and excellent health care. Two more quotes and from different sources. The aristocratic complaint is quoted in Amabel William-Ellis and F.J. Fisher, M.A., _The Story of English Life_: "The world goeth from bad to worse when shepherd and cowherd demand more for their labor than the master-bailiff was wont to take in days gone by. Laborers of old were not wont to eat of wheaten bread; their meat was of beans and coarser corn, and their drink of water alone. Cheese and milk were a feast to them; their dress was of hodden grey; then was the world ordered aright for folk of this sort. Ha! age of ours, whither turnest thou? For the poor and small folk, who should cleave to their labor, demand to be better fed than their masters." A widely published remark made by Mr. George Soros: "Economic history is a never-ending series of episodes based on falsehoods and lies, not truths. It represents the path to big money. The object is to recognize that trend whose premise is false, ride that trend, and step off before it is discredited." -- Llywarch Hen From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 14 19:57:04 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:57:04 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960814185535.00e17344@mail.teleport.com> At 09:41 AM 8/14/96 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > >C'punks, > >On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Jim Legg wrote: > >> Beware when politicos speak! > >Good advice, but... > >> Phyllis Schlafly would think nothing of trying to ban speech on >> the internet when it is something that she doesn't agree with. > >An interesting allegation. I wonder if it is merely rhetoric or >if Jim has any evidence to backup this statement? Well, I can think of a few reasons to come to that conclusion. - Schlafly is the head of one of the more right-wing organizations in the country. - She is very closly associated with the Buchanon campaign and the Christian coalition. - Her organization, the Eagle Forum, distributes a couple of anti-porn rant tracts (http://www.eagleforum.org/users/eagle/public_html/misc/order.html) called _Pornography's Victims $4.95 (paperback) by Schlafly, ed._ and _Pornography Addict (Bundy Interview)_. (Quoting Bundy is interesting in this context, because he never collected porn, he collected cheerleading magazines. His "death bed confession" was a ploy to gain publicity and sympathy out of a gulible ant-porn zealot.) >Does Jim know who Phyllis' son is? I know that he is gay. His mother seems to have had some problems coming to terms with the implications of alot of her rhetoric involving such things... (She seems to confuse her religion with reality on this point.) I would say there are alot of reasons to assume that Schlafly would try and impose her morality on the rest of the country if given half the chance. Look at the people she chooses to associate with. --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 20:01:20 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:01:20 +0800 Subject: Capital and Taxes Message-ID: At 8:27 PM 8/14/96, Greg Hopper wrote: >When you consider that capital gains tax rate schedules are not indexed for >inflation, the situation's even worse than Tim's analysis implies. Since >you pay tax on the nominal rather than the real capital gain, the effective >capital gains tax rate is really higher than the quoted rate. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Greg Hopper |Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are > >Research Department |my own and not necessarily those of >Federal Reserve Bank |the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia >of Philadelphia |or the Federal Reserve System. I certainly agree with Greg here, and find it too bad that his views do not actually express the views of the Federal Reserve. (Actually, they may, as I remember reading Alan Greenspan's stuff in Rand's books in the late 60s, e.g., "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.") Not only is there inflation to consider, there is the double taxation I should've emphasized more than I did. Wages are typically corrected for inflation (for competitiveness reasons), but capital gains are not. That stock I bought for $20 in 1975 dollars and am now selling for $40 in 1996 dollars, and paying 40% in taxes on the "gain," is clearly not really a doubling. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 14 20:04:10 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:04:10 +0800 Subject: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto Message-ID: <199608150016.RAA00804@mail.pacifier.com> At 11:46 AM 8/14/96 -0400, Marc J. Wohler wrote: >At 07:59 AM 8/14/96 -0400, you wrote: >>Subject: Clinton Is Trying to be Big Brother -- Phyllis Schlafly Column 8/8/96 > >It makes me ill to agree with Schlafly on any issue, but 'Even a stopped >clock....... >Unrepentant Liberial It does seem really odd, doesn't it? But look at it this way: The only reason the knuckle-dragging conservatives are able to take the moral high-ground on this and other net-freedom issues is because the OTHER "unrependant liberals" have inexplicably abandoned the correct side of the argument. The fact that the conservatives are right may seem odd, but the behavior of the liberals is truly astonishing. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 20:04:58 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:04:58 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates Message-ID: At 7:30 PM 8/14/96, II I II I I I II I II II I I I I II I II wrote: >>I note those plastic cover for plates "to keep them clean" >>seem to be more & more popular. > >These are not allowed in California (although the chance of getting >popped must be quite slim, by the number you see). > >I remember seeing some water based spray paints in dun colors (such as >a nice mud tan) - Gee, officer, its just mud, . If I lived closer to the nearest city I know of with "photo tickets," namely, Campbell, California (about 30 miles away, over the Hill into Silicon Valley). I would probably make sure my license plate had some real mud on it...just enough to link some letters or numbers together to make them unreadable with a low res. photo. Maybe we'll have barcoded license plates sooner than we think. Then all of those speed cameras can also track our movements. --I II II II I I II I II II I II II I I II I I I II II HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From bart.croughs at tip.nl Wed Aug 14 20:14:00 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:14:00 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8A50.F3A1BAE0@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Sandy Sandfort wrote: >I've just had an insight with regard to Bart's ongoing capital debate. In response to Perry's "green pylon" post, Bart wrote: > I am saying that the fact that American workers are better paid > than workers in Third World countries, can be explained for a > large part by the fact that there is much more capital invested > in the US than in Third World countries. Bart's error lies in his confusion of the terms "captial" and "capital investment." While capital may be used to make capital investments, there are other things it can be spent for as well (wages, taxes, supplies, etc.). If Bart were to use the term "infrastructure" then it would be clear that the ebb and flow of mere capital would have relatively little to do with infrastructure influenced wages.< What does 'capital' mean? The MacMillan dictionary of modern economics (3d edition, p. 51) says: 1) A word used to refer to a factor of production produced by the economic system. Capital goods are produced goods which are used as factor INPUTS for further PRODUCTION. As such capital can be distinguished from LAND and LABOUR which are not conventionally thought of as being themselves produced by the economic system. As a consequence of its heterogenous nature, the measurement of capital has become the source of much controversy 2) The word is also used as a term for financial ASSETS. So, I fear that it's Sandy who is confused about the meaning of the word 'capital', not me. But even if it is me who is confused about the meaning of the word 'capital' (which isn't the case), this confusion wouldn't affect my argument at all. If American capital is invested in foreign countries instead of in the US, then the total amount of capital invested in the US will be lower than it would have been if the capital had been invested in the US. So the wages in the US would be lower than they would have been if the capital had been invested in the US. The argument is still the same, and my question is still not answered. Bart Croughs From snow at smoke.suba.com Wed Aug 14 20:17:07 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:17:07 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <199608141547.IAA25312@dns1.noc.best.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > Under democracy, people get the government they deserve and > get it good and hard. May I add this (attributed of course) to my .sig file? Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 20:42:12 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:42:12 +0800 Subject: Capital and Taxes Message-ID: At 11:26 PM 8/14/96, Llywarch Hen wrote: >Yep, we've adopted the fuzziest-headed of liberal ideas in promoting >government as an agent of change to improve things for Tim and his pals by >asking wage earners to subsidize his economic activities by distributing the >costs to the public so he can enjoy the profits. But this is just the result But there are no "costs" to be distributed. The government already taxed the corporation once, at 40-50%, and even taxed the gain due solely to devaluation to the currency (inflation), so all I am asking is that I not be taxed again. Of course, they will likely do so anyway. So I'm saying I probably won't sell assets I might otherwise have sold (not surprisingly, some folks even want unsold assets taxed). For the record, I paid a *lot* of taxes this year, much more (by a factor of several) than I putatively received in benefits. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 20:54:24 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:54:24 +0800 Subject: Crypto Policy Variant Message-ID: At 11:17 PM 8/14/96, Frank Stuart wrote: >Here's my key, your honor. I used a one-time pad to do the encryption. As >you can plainly see, the encrypted file that the prosecution made such a big >deal about contains nothing but some of my favorite verses from the King James >Bible. You shouldn't infer anything from the fact that another key would >make the file contain the evil stuff that was alleged (even though it is a bit >strange that the last verse ends in the middle of a word). Frank presents a cogent example of how the Staelin plan is a nonstarter. That is, it's a nonstarter *if* we remove any formal evidence of which crypto method is attached to a program. Cycles are cheap (compared to prison terms or a bullet in the head). Therefore, it's cheaper to let folks either make their own guesses at the crypto involved, or try several, than it is to unambigiously narrow down the searches to one particular algorithm, which the State can then insist on a decryption key for. Let the Staelin Plan be warning for us to prepare for an era in which the particular crypto method should not be revealed. (Cryptographically, any of the various algorithms are "polynomially equivalent," but, practically, the "King James Defense" used by Frank, brilliantly, will probably work. It's hard to argue with Scripture.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From sandfort at crl.com Wed Aug 14 20:55:21 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:55:21 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960814185535.00e17344@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > Well, I can think of a few reasons to come to that conclusion. > > - Schlafly is the head of one of the more right-wing > organizations in the country. Some right-wingers don't like free speech, most do. This characterization is not enlightening on the question at hand. > - She is very closly associated with the Buchanon campaign and > the Christian coalition. Does Buchanan favor censorship of the Net? If so, what leads you to believe Schlafly shares that particular view? This guilt by (assumed) association is not fair nor persuasive. > - Her organization, the Eagle Forum, distributes a couple of > anti-porn rant tracts (http://www.eagleforum.org/users/eagle/ > public_html/misc/order.html) called _Pornography's Victims > $4.95 (paperback) by Schlafly, ed._ Being against porn does not mean one is pro-censorship. (I don't like smoking, but I don't think it should be illegal.) We need something more concrete to support such an accusation. > I know that he [Phyllis' son] is gay. His mother seems to have > had some problems coming to terms with the implications of alot > of her rhetoric involving such things... Really? I though she very clearly has stated that she hates the sin, not the sinner. What evidence does Alan have that she has had "some problems coming to terms..."? > (She seems to confuse her religion with reality on this point.) As does Alan. > I would say there are alot of reasons to assume that Schlafly > would try and impose her morality on the rest of the country if > given half the chance. Well Alan can say anything he wants, but he has given no *substantive* reasons to support his prejudices. By her article against Net censorship, Schlafly has given us at least one piece of evidence to the contrary. > Look at the people she chooses to associate with. Jesus hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes. Look at the people he chose to associate with. Guilt by association again? Look folks, in this battle, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." We KNOW what Clinton and his gang think of our privacy and freedom of speech on the Net. Let's not cut off our noses to spite our faces. If Schlarly wants to lend a hand, let's not bite it, okay? S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 21:11:04 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:11:04 +0800 Subject: BlackNet Bids $350 M for a DAT tape Message-ID: At 9:38 PM 8/14/96, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: >Most foreign powers would pay someone a handsome sum to hand over these >keys. I would bet that France or Iran would offer a billion dollars to >someone who would turn over the part of the database they preside over. > >I bet that France/Iran/etc. would be able to pool together 3 billion >dollars and a nice getaway for the stooges who can grab a tape with the >escrowed keys on it. Heck, Ames turned traitor for less. (I am assuming >the keys as small, 1K bytes each... an 8mm Exabyte mammoth tape would be >able to carry 30 million keys.) Even an "el cheapo" Travan TR3 tape would >be able to snarf 1.6 million keys... and that's a lot of people >compromised! Sure, the going bid is $350 million on BlackNet. I expect the price to go higher, as more keys are involved. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 21:17:50 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:17:50 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: At 2:23 AM 8/15/96, Bart Croughs wrote: >Bart's error lies in his confusion of the terms "captial" and >"capital investment." While capital may be used to make capital >investments, there are other things it can be spent for as well >(wages, taxes, supplies, etc.). > >If Bart were to use the term "infrastructure" then it would be >clear that the ebb and flow of mere capital would have relatively >little to do with infrastructure influenced wages.< I agree. (On the other hand, Bart might want to find ways to make the material he is quoting more distinct from his own comments. I find it very hard to tell which comments are Bart's and which are those he is quoting.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From sandfort at crl.com Wed Aug 14 21:20:22 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:20:22 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB8A50.F3A1BAE0@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Bart Croughs wrote: > 2) The word is also used as a term for financial ASSETS. Dollar bills are a financial asset, but they are not a capital asset. > So, I fear that it's Sandy who is confused about the meaning of > the word 'capital', not me. Bart may fear all he wants, but he is still confusing the two meanings of the word. > But even if it is me who is confused about the meaning of the > word 'capital' (which isn't the case), this confusion wouldn't > affect my argument at all. If American capital is invested in > foreign countries instead of in the US, then the total amount > of capital invested in the US will be lower than it would have > been if the capital had been invested in the US. Here is where Bart's confusion lies. If he is talking about investment dollars, they none of his Austrian quotes bear any relationship to his conclusion. If he is talking about shipping steel mills overseas, there might be some justification, but I don't think that's what he is talking about. Finally, he as not shown why US investors would move their capital (of whatever nature) from non-competitive US companies to foreign ones. As I said in a previous post, the most likely to happen is that US investors will move their capital (of whatever nature) from non-competitive US companies to other US companies that do enjoy a competitive advantage. On a personal note: Bart the people on this list are highly intelligent. Many if not most are students of Austrian economics. By the tone of your posts my best guess is that you are young (20's?) and have little practical experience in "the real world." This is not a crime, but it's no great honor either. The people you have been tilting with are not arguing just to be arguing. They have a firm grasp of the subject matter and fine analytical minds. Your arguments to authority are okay, but you show a serious intellectual inflexiblity. I sincerely suggest you reconsider your demeanor on this list to date, and work to improve it. Don't waste your reputation capital being a jerk. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 14 21:35:29 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:35:29 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Amazing how people forget that Sweden is, in fact, a monarchy. The king doesn't exercise his absolute power of life and death over his subject - he has appointed that to his government. There is no liberty in Sweden. Merely googood humour on the part of the Sovereign. In the USA, we have a system that ensures that the burden of proof is on the accuser. From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 14 21:49:37 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:49:37 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer In-Reply-To: <19960813152643711.AAA272@[194.90.26.157]> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, geoff wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Date: Tue Aug 13 18:39:12 1996 > > on Aug 13 Sean Sutherland wrote: > > > Whatever happened to that free offer for ProntoSecure for members of > > the Cpunk list? Remembered hearing something about it awhile back, > > but I don't know exactly what it is. Thanks. > > The offer is still on. A free copy of Pronto Secure in exchange for > feedback. Open to anyone on the c'punk list. "Do all the work I should be doing or have done in the first place discover the critical flaws in my new-keen-o-ka-jive-o crypto system and I will give you a free copy of a critically flawed crypto system (a $99.00 value) ABSOLUTELY FREE. Wait, don't order yet. Included you also get to actually whitewash my fence and then mow my lawn. All at NO COST to you." -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 14 21:54:31 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:54:31 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > At 9:27 8/13/96, Peter Trei wrote: > > >I vaguely remember another possibly relevant precedent, where a > >judge ruled that a warrant was required before a thermal imager > >could be used to look at a house suspected by the police of > >being a (pot) grow house. > > Wrong. No warrant was used and the bust was upheld in court. Correct. No warrant is required to observe that which is freely collected after eminating from the residence of another and observed off his property. Same concept applies to the "sniff" test and ariel views into greenhouses. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 14 22:02:59 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:02:59 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] Locating cell phones with power off? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > I seem to remember that somebody once mentioned that cell phones transmit > signal even with the power switch off. Supposedly, you have to take out the > batteries to cut the signal. The more I am thinking about it, the less > sense it makes. Can somebody here please confirm (or deny) this rumor? > > TIA, Playing about with my phone and frequency counter, I get no signal at all with power off but battery in. > > > > -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. > Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. > Vote Harry Browne for President. > > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 14 22:07:58 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:07:58 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: <199608132155.OAA09738@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > At 09:27 AM 8/13/96 -6, Peter Trei wrote: > > > >Tim writes: > > > >> I don't see how "remote scanning" of the population at large, without > >> probable cause, is much different from the cops listening in from a > >> distance with parabolic antennas. Both cases involve detection of signals > >> emitted from the target. And yet such long-distance interception is not > >> allowed without a warrant. > > > >I vaguely remember another possibly relevant precedent, where a > >judge ruled that a warrant was required before a thermal imager > >could be used to look at a house suspected by the police of > >being a (pot) grow house. > >Peter Trei > >trei at process.com > > There was just such a decision in Washington state about a year ago, as I > recall. However, as I recall there has been a contradictory decision > elsewhere, so the law isn't clear. The decision you refer to was effectively overruled. > > It seems to me that the main problem with such "evidence" is not the search > itself, but the interpretation of the results: Having a hot house isn't a > crime, and indeed it was not practically detectable before IR viewers. And > an IR viewer only tells you the house is hot; it doesn't say why its hot. > Apparently, when the "justice system" gets a new toy, it subtly adjusts its > standards to use that toy, regardless of minor issues such as right and > wrong. > > > Jim Bell > jimbell at pacifier.com > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From lzirko at c2.org Wed Aug 14 22:13:35 1996 From: lzirko at c2.org (Lou Zirko) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:13:35 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <199608150252.TAA29747@infinity.c2.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com, geoff at commtouch.co.il Date: Wed Aug 14 21:52:47 1996 Personally I enjoyed helping to bring to market a full-featured PGP-aware mail package. It was a product that I was interested in seeing and was able to participate in making suggestions as to features, etc. It particular, Geoff was most help full in making sure that if performed under NT which was not initially supported, but is my platform (along with Linux). It is a good product and will help to ease usability of PGP for people that are afraid of the steps required by many mailers to utilize PGP. If I remember, your platform in Linux and you should not be so quick to criticize what you may have not seen. for > On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, geoff wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > "Do all the work I should be doing or have done in the first place > discover the critical flaws in my new-keen-o-ka-jive-o crypto system and > I > will give you a free copy of a critically flawed crypto system (a > $99.00 > value) ABSOLUTELY FREE. Wait, don't order yet. Included you also get > to > actually whitewash my fence and then mow my lawn. All at NO COST to > you." > > -- > I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist > unicorn at schloss.li > > > Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko at c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMhKREMtPRTNbb5z9AQEyywgAwvmF9zh46X6KpgprzbTEWsl2v8MFCOU0 s5LVvO8gt3IN3GRWAGaMsmsAuDhP7KdyG7UGSuJlstPd0sJWO+7vw6XDn4kZhsZH /3aN0FVwYJJOf51rEmHOYc0JagNRUlRIMtkiRr019JRmb+7s+6uO6B6r1ojT0SCe NOS8lHOGUOqD2OaYX8vhg2nH18AwNn+WRPsURCkcp3xhF9T3PiDasvYVCsirizqL ePk8NcOIrTR9eEp1rfTkOpx5jfG/2Q5epOrwx0a4UD/6AWebnrX0bPQC1mXtTU1P BDVDtYtgJo0YIDtDjoLqsjnSeni4ZjyVLoTc80dQgrXJN9V7g+PiFQ== =pU+b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 14 22:16:32 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:16:32 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: <199608132339.TAA01485@nrk.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, David Lesher wrote: > I note those plastic cover for plates "to keep them clean" > seem to be more & more popular. As are plates with polarized lenses which obscure any view of a plate at an angle of less than about 80 degrees. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Aug 14 22:18:18 1996 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:18:18 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches (fwd) Message-ID: <199608150313.WAA08490@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:24:39 -0400 (EDT) > From: Black Unicorn > Subject: Re: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches > > Correct. No warrant is required to observe that which is freely collected > after eminating from the residence of another and observed off his > property. > > Same concept applies to the "sniff" test and ariel views into greenhouses. Pitty somebody doesn't bring a suite against the FCC under this logic. It would particularly impact radar detectors, cell phones, and other types of scanners. Jim Choate From wb8foz at nrk.com Wed Aug 14 22:24:05 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:24:05 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608150242.WAA07974@nrk.com> > > On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, David Lesher wrote: > > > I note those plastic cover for plates "to keep them clean" > > seem to be more & more popular. > > As are plates with polarized lenses which obscure any view of a plate at > an angle of less than about 80 degrees. I wonder if the answer isn't those corner reflector prisms? The machine usually has a flashtube. If you make a licence-plate frame with them around the edge...... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 14 22:39:19 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:39:19 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof Message-ID: At 1:53 AM 8/15/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >In the USA, we have a system that ensures that the burden of proof is on >the accuser. Which explains why in the U.S. the tax authorities take the money first and then require the citizen to be the "accuser" in Tax Court, pleading to get his seized assets back. (To outsiders, the U.S. tax authorities have broad powers to seize properties without any court process, to attach wages, to deputize employers and banks as unpaid tax collectors, and to harass citizens. Citizen-units may sue, of course, but the burden of proof is on them to prove that they are owed a refund. A man who saves money and puts it in his mattress can have it seized and taken from him. He must produce proof that it is his money, never mind that he already paid taxes on it and never mind that there is no way someone who saves currency can have a proper paper trail. So much for "burdens of proof.") --Tim May HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines) From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 14 22:42:04 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:42:04 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] Locating cell phones with power off? Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3 hQEMAy1onm9OaF05AQf9HrOT3gvf+p/v9oNWcClCrgNPxHqR3Ro+Ai3OdYJOgmPK neIs5I7bQ0g4vfdN/T1daZRXMhmwIBD0JUZeZqjNGYHczBT5poxQSgrruHx3dHa6 hvZDRkH4YV2nynRWpQ3tGcsMPiEU2yHIfG8ts8XGF4AoikCPSAy4rJaZl856V5KM 1K5lLZA+kL5meAGaN4o0HxTnNU3KxPctKd1UJUruZvDSBx03rYYGGLIlI6i0JCA8 3lCPcIGFhEehV8UWy9xdoinM5oF23hB80gIEtrV//dpXk9aKE6OfKs0d6lTO1Gq/ EDIxgKnwOvX+zGd6UjubvomfH1Z+GOVtQi7oFHlvaqYAAAGQj8eyiz0s8Sgq3c7a eIxcUZ5TwMgFnfCFTuJrXZ5K4/pVdPAMvDZzGXI6J/1Fry89NQ3zup34RbR2HxTz E64QgkF+mzrWu18SaVgggHAwxhpje56ahbolX4E72l/LN3y/FiDhiBL33jxcBwuD DztcLr/4wbE3Van+luAvYBKJ7tueEiv0JGcl0jHFo3DOAyC+11qeouSir36SlBKs Aj3oBhYwaC9op/RAZlzXyq3wqnnrqHKG7MGOrIRjJdId2i8QTGVtATKDQwn9eZ+U AQftEaIEyzxo/IKeCiLjFFTeGFYDg9F7vwJbYNA14T5RBqmom6XsHvRVpfiHmhxn YnD0ULKGl2VNX+E/v2uacpjIWglULaWARO4pjbPHl8YNryGbYfTt3LOYCZVtfwM2 li8ZJjuaJuoXultzBIkAsDes0JTIW929gsWPjnTsMn9yPb0fy1Ia1W3czF0v/Fwx MpYbUalRKqi7Tg1WlkBDra4AEW60oUBpHbQaccSZ5xDrCu/HzlPAaeloQAwdLFF+ MDX2vg== =jH3M -----END PGP MESSAGE----- -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From null at void.com Thu Aug 15 00:17:03 1996 From: null at void.com (The Prisoner) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:17:03 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3212B1B0.2327@void.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > [WHACK] > Maybe we'll have barcoded license plates sooner than we think. Then all of > those speed cameras can also track our movements. > No, too low-tech. Small trasnsmitters with unique programmed ID codes broadcast as you drive. Much easier to trace. And LoJack's already got a good bit of the technology in place. Or your GPS co-ords could be stored/buffered onboard, and uploaded to the Central Bureau every night for analysis. This is the kind of forward thinking that Creates Jobs! From vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net Thu Aug 15 00:36:53 1996 From: vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net (Erle Greer) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:36:53 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960815043853.007242e8@mail.sd.cybernex.net> At 07:51 PM 8/10/96 -0400, you wrote: >In the UK they now use cameras to deter speeding; the cameras are >triggered by vehicles passing by which exceed the speed-limit, so in >theory it's only naughty people who get photographed. Interestingly >enough, there are far more places with camera warning signs than there >are actual cameras; the actual cameras are moved around at random. Even >though most of the time there isn't a camera there, almost everbody >seemed to slow down in the marked areas; probably because there's almost >100% chance of being caught if there is a camera there. I speed a lot, but I wouldn't mind seeing an automated system !!! AS LONG AS TAXES THAT PAY SPEED COPS' SALARIES GO DOWN !!! This system would free up the police force's time so greatly that they would have time to make our neigborhoods safe. hehe Vagab0nd
Visit web page for public key. From null at void.com Thu Aug 15 00:50:37 1996 From: null at void.com (The Prisoner) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:50:37 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! Message-ID: <3212B8F9.367A@void.com> from comp.risks: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 15:52:22 PDT From: Greg Dolkas Subject: RISKy cars coming! "In the 22 Jul 1996 issue of Fortune was an interesting look into the future of automobile electronics, "Soon Your Dashboard Will Do Everything (Except Steer)". " >>> Does that include reporting your movements to the Central Bureau? "The topic of steering has already been discussed in this forum, but what caught my eye was a review of the "OnStar" product from GM. Besides being a navigation aid, it also contains "some anti-bonehead features". " >>> Thank God people keep trying to save me from myself. "These include the ability for you to call GM's "control center" for help if you lock your keys in the car, or forget where you parked it. >From the control center, they can "electronically reach into the car" to unlock the doors, or honk the horn and flash its lights." >>> It is extremely comforting to me -- I don't know about you -- to think that GM will maintain a control center able to communicate with my auto electronics. Shit, why not TRW? From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 15 00:53:39 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:53:39 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <199608150454.VAA12982@toad.com> At 09:08 PM 8/13/96 -0400, Alan Horowitz wrote: >> If foil or metal mesh would block it, then many recently built houses >> would be already set. Usually that 1/2 - 1 inch styrofoam used >> on almost all exterior walls has a reflective layer of foil to help >> keep the heat/cold out. >Take a course in Tempest practices. Casual residential practice >implemented by construction workers do not a vault make. The context of the discussion wasn't TEMPEST (as you say, it's not enough for that), but new high-frequency hand-held radar imaging, which ostensibly uses radio emissions from human skin or some technique to create images. Foil-backed insulation ought to do a good job stopping that, as well as making infared snooping less useful. Now, the police _claim_ that the product that lets you see the shape of objects under people's clothes has the resolution to find guns and knives and non-naughty-bits of human flesh, but not enough to let those dirty-minded privacy-invaders leer at their victims. Uh huh. At least they probably don't come with printers or data links, so they'll just have to leer at the screen and not save and distribute copies.... Somebody ought to complain to Phyllis Schlafly about this! [less serious material follows:] [Not only will you need the tinfoil lining to your hat, you'll have to get some metallic-lined underwear to avoid being entrapped into aiding and abetting police pornographers. Maybe Erik's gold-lame' suggestion will catch on, at least here in San Francisco....] # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 15 01:41:43 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:41:43 +0800 Subject: Fun with M$ Message-ID: <199608150518.WAA13323@toad.com> At 11:07 AM 8/12/96 -0400, Dan Siemon wrote: >> > Exploder is an Active X control which demonstrates security problems with >> > Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Exploder performs a clean shutdown of >> > Win95 and will turn off the power on machines that have a power >> > conservation BIOS (green machines). > >I don't see how anyone can call this a bug. If somebody can write a web page that, when you view it, turns off your PC, the only way I can see calling it a positive feature is to say "it's easy to make people stop using really insecure products like MSIE!" or "Turning off Win95 is a Kind Thing to do!" >Microsoft has chosen what Sun should have: leave the security to the user, >don't take it away from everyone. Java has been severely crippled by the User? What user? The poor unsuspecting fool who hits the web page? The kind friendly person who writes web pages that turn off Win95? Executing signed code from web pages is semi-ok, if the default is to trust no one and make the user explicitly grant permission to code authors. Executing anything that comes down the wire is foolish, and writing software to do so is rabidly negligent. The Java approach is to define a security model that _should_ let you safely execute code if you implement it correctly, do some academic-style analysis to validate the security model, document the level of trust you can expect from the system, and then put out a mildly buggy implementation of the system so grad students can rip it to shreds :-) So far the security problems that have been discovered have been with the implementation, not with the underlying security model. And then add a similar-looking language called Javascript with no underlying security model, make it impossible to turn off, and get taunted mercilessly until you add a "Turn it off" checkbox. The Microsoft approach was to take a hacked-up word-processor gluon, from the folks who brought you the Word Prank Virus Propagation Tool, hack it up some more, add Internet hooks, and replace a few bugs with different bugs while trying to catch up with the market leader on features. Yes, some of the removed bugs were security bugs, but it's nothing near secure, and there's no reason to expect it ever can be. (Brought to you by the folks who added features to Winsock so that their PowerPoint disk-hogging-and-slideshow system chokes to death if you install standards-based networking software, even if you don't use the network features....) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From alano at teleport.com Thu Aug 15 01:42:32 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:42:32 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960815053848.00f05a5c@mail.teleport.com> At 09:51 PM 8/14/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >[less serious material follows:] >[Not only will you need the tinfoil lining to your hat, you'll have >to get some metallic-lined underwear to avoid being entrapped into >aiding and abetting police pornographers. Maybe Erik's gold-lame' suggestion >will catch on, at least here in San Francisco....] Maybe chainmail will come back in style. (Why does the SNL skit of Dan Ackeroid trying to get through the metal detector covered in chains and metal fetish gear come to mind...) --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From cts at deltanet.com Thu Aug 15 01:55:02 1996 From: cts at deltanet.com (Kevin Stephenson) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:55:02 +0800 Subject: Jurisdictionless Distributed Data Havens Message-ID: <3212B0CB.1AB7@deltanet.com> With all of the debate on offshore data havens, I've been thinking of a way to implement a distributed data haven that would not be subject to (hopefully) any local jurisdiction and therefore, would not need to be located in the place of cypherpunks wet dreams ;). If this idea has been mentioned by someone else, I am not aware of it. By distributing the data over several servers (using RAID like striping), compromise of a single or multiple servers (depending on implementation specifics) would not cause a collapse of the data haven. Here is a way such a data haven could be setup: The data is split into multiple parts. Each site is responsible for maintaining only its part. For a client to access a piece of data, he will have to contact a certain number of sites to reconstruct the data. The client could also use some sort of anonymizer service to do the data collection and then do then combining on his local machine. If one site gets shut down by Big Brother, denial of service attack, etc., the other sites either find a new site to replicate the missing part to, or they need to reconstruct the data and re-stripe it for the remaining servers. (Read any networking book with a section on RAID to see what all this means.) Another idea is that the data can be encrypted, and the client pays the key-holder for the key. The key holder would preferably be the content provider and not one of the servers. i.e.: Client finds Bombs R Us and wants to buy pipe bomb instructions. Bombs R Us gets anonymous payment from client for the instructions. Bombs R Us says to client: "collect" page 5 "parts" and use this key to decrypt. In this scheme, using anonymous digital cash, Bombs R Us can remain anonymous with his data publicly available but encrypted. He can pay each of the server maintainers in anonymous digital cash as his expense. Each server cannot (or should not) be held responsible for disseminating bomb making instructions because each server does not *have* the instructions in a complete form (encrypted or otherwise). It would be like someone calling the cops and saying, I placed a box with XXXXX in it at the airport. This in itself is not a threat. XXXXX could be anything, including OJ Simpson's bloody clothes. And if another guy called in and said "pipe bomb" and hung up, this is meaningless also. The reason data striping is better than a simple mirroring network is that no single site contains anything useful in itself for the authorities to use against the server maintainer. (Similar to a remailer network perhaps) An extra feature could be if some major attack was initiated against the data haven, there could be a dead-man button of some sort to make the data vanish altogether by sending distress signals to the other servers (or to at least one server, which could then cascade the signal). The system could either use RAID Level 5 data striping, or some hybrid scheme like this: Site 1 has bits 1 and 5 of data Site 2 has bits 2 and 6 of data Site 3 has bits 3 and 7 of data Site 4 has bits 4 and 8 of data Site 5 has 2 parity bits (1 parity bit per nibble) Site 6 has bits 1, 2, 3, and 4 Site 7 has bits 5, 6, 7, and 8 etc. In this particular scheme, it would take the downing of at least 3 of the 7 servers to prevent data collection. It would also take at least 2 sites worth of data to reconstruct the data into a usable form. As much or as little redundancy as needed can be built into the system. The only time the data is in it's whole is prior to being stripped across the servers, during data recreation and re-striping, and when in the hands of the client. Benefits: * No single site contains any incriminating evidence * Allows for a true "virtual company" to exist, with just a mail-box to receive it's anonymous digital cash payments Problems: * Requires a re-striping of data when the data source is changed * Requires a data regeneration and re-striping when a site goes down and a replacement site can not be found (could possibly use an idle standby server to circumvent this problem) Attacks: * Government sabotages site 1, then watches site 2 for data regeneration before re-striping (Can be thwarted by having data regeneration happening on a randomly picked server) Clarifications: When I say digital cash, I am not referring to Chaum's DigiCash. DigiCash will never work in my book because it requires an account, amongst other reasons. YMMV. Comments welcome. Kevin Stephenson -Silence is Security WWIIish Poster From alano at teleport.com Thu Aug 15 02:13:43 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:13:43 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960815053035.00fc9d90@mail.teleport.com> At 05:47 PM 8/14/96 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > >C'punks, > >On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > >> Well, I can think of a few reasons to come to that conclusion. >> >> - Schlafly is the head of one of the more right-wing >> organizations in the country. > >Some right-wingers don't like free speech, most do. This >characterization is not enlightening on the question at hand. Actually, i have found that it does not matter which side you choose, right or left, they desire free speech for themselves and not for others. >> - She is very closly associated with the Buchanon campaign and >> the Christian coalition. > >Does Buchanan favor censorship of the Net? If so, what leads you >to believe Schlafly shares that particular view? This guilt by >(assumed) association is not fair nor persuasive. I am not certain about Buchanan, but i do know that the Christian coalition is very much in favor of net censorship. Actually, I can find no statements in either direction on the Eagle Forum web site. Do you know of any statements by Schlafly and/or the Eagle forum either for or against net censorship? I know of none for, and the circumstantial evidence available does not reinforce the conclusion that she is against it. >> - Her organization, the Eagle Forum, distributes a couple of >> anti-porn rant tracts (http://www.eagleforum.org/users/eagle/ >> public_html/misc/order.html) called _Pornography's Victims >> $4.95 (paperback) by Schlafly, ed._ > >Being against porn does not mean one is pro-censorship. (I don't >like smoking, but I don't think it should be illegal.) We need >something more concrete to support such an accusation. I have yet to see anyone who publishes anti-porn screeds based off of the Bundy case that does not support censorship of such materials. Can you point me to any? Or any material that would lend credence to the argument that she supports freedom for anyone except "Good God-Fearing Christians"? >> I know that he [Phyllis' son] is gay. His mother seems to have >> had some problems coming to terms with the implications of alot >> of her rhetoric involving such things... > >Really? I though she very clearly has stated that she hates the >sin, not the sinner. What evidence does Alan have that she has >had "some problems coming to terms..."? Lon Mabon also claims to "hate the sin and love the sinner". It does not prevent him from dredging up as much hate as possible for those who are gay. Actually my beliefs are based opon statements she made at the time. You may have more information on the subject than I do... >> (She seems to confuse her religion with reality on this point.) > >As does Alan. Without evidence to back up your claims, I cannot make any judgement than what I have made. Her associations with people who believe in censorship and her devotion to a branch of Christianity that supports censorship, as well as her sales of publications used to justify censorship makes me believe that she follows that course. Without specific examples that show that she does not believe in such measures, I have no reason to assume any other conclusion. >> I would say there are alot of reasons to assume that Schlafly >> would try and impose her morality on the rest of the country if >> given half the chance. > >Well Alan can say anything he wants, but he has given no >*substantive* reasons to support his prejudices. By her article >against Net censorship, Schlafly has given us at least one piece >of evidence to the contrary. Has she published against net censorship? The quoted article was about wiretapping. My search of her web site did not reveal any articles on that topic. If you have specific pointers I would like to see them. >> Look at the people she chooses to associate with. > >Jesus hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes. Look at the >people he chose to associate with. Guilt by association again? But Jesus did not try to get the prostitutes and tax collectors elected to high office... (But then again, there are no contemporary records for the existence of such a being in the first place.) >Look folks, in this battle, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Actually I view this as a fallacy. Just because the Christian Right opposes Clinton for good reasons, does not make them friends for causes that I view as just. >We KNOW what Clinton and his gang think of our privacy and >freedom of speech on the Net. Let's not cut off our noses to >spite our faces. If Schlarly wants to lend a hand, let's not >bite it, okay? Lets also not accept them just because they oppose the current threat. I believe they have a number of threats of their own. I do not disagree with the Eagle Forum on everything. (I have just read enough of her early works to make me consider her a danger to herself and others... Especially her screeds on Communism.) She has some points I consider valid on education and other areas. But just because he makes sense in some areas does not mean that I will trust either her or any of her minions in any position of power. Control freaks of either stripe worry me... If they are willing to fight against the Clintonocracy, then i will be glad to see it. Just do not expect me to be willing to swallow their religious beliefs as an alternative. If you have pointers to material that shows that she is against net censorship, then post pointers. I would like to see them. The posted article does not address the net at all, other than as communication on a one to one basis. It does not address the issues of those who post unencoded messages to the public at large. Until I have text that shows otherwise, i have little data to show that she supports freedom of speech other than on a one to one basis. --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From shamrock at netcom.com Thu Aug 15 02:14:19 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:14:19 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! Message-ID: At 22:43 8/14/96, The Prisoner wrote: >>>> It is extremely comforting to me -- I don't know about you -- to think >>>>that GM will maintain a control center able to communicate with my auto >>>>electronics. Shit, why not TRW? Hacker's delight. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Thu Aug 15 02:17:13 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:17:13 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960815051518.00349ecc@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 10:27 14/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >* the role of physical vs. cyberspace data havens ... >3. Vince seems to be a in a somewhat precarious position, awaiting renewal >of a one-year work permit. I'm sure this has come up before, but what would prevent a server being located on a buoy or something at sea outside territorial limits (or when satellites become cheaper, on a satellite itself) offering such services? Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Aug 15 02:21:51 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:21:51 +0800 Subject: RANT re: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Message-ID: <199608150629.XAA03193@dns2.noc.best.net> Brad Dolan asks: > > 1. Good jobs of the future are knowledge jobs which require little > > capital investment. At 06:24 PM 8/13/96 -0700, Checkered Daemon wrote: > a) Knowledge jobs require tremendous capital investment, as in degrees, > training, continual updating of skills, etc. But they do not require much capital investment by the boss. That is to say the key corporate assets are increasingly owned by the employees, At some point one would expect this to lead to a change in business structure, but I see no signs of this happening. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 15 02:28:29 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:28:29 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <199608150606.XAA13751@toad.com> >At 08:33 13/08/96 -0700, James A. Donald wrote: >> > Demand for Indian programmers is less than supply not because capital >> > has somehow failed to flow to India, but because an engineer in India >> > is not free to produce the value that engineers elsewhere are free >> > to produce. I've worked with companies that bring Indian contract programmers to Silicon Valley and also contract for work back home in Bangalore. Sure, part of the lower price paid for programmers in India vs. importing the same people here is probably because the government is annoying. Why is it worth paying nearly-American-scale wages to have them do the work here rather than 1/5 as much back home? Part of it is because it's harder to interact with people halfway around the world, even using email and faxes, so the jobs that succeed well in that environment are big jobs with well-defined inputs and outputs. For work that needs real interaction between the customer and the worker, it helps to have the worker nearby, so it's worth paying them to come here. For work that needs interaction between workers and machines, especially brand-new-not-yet-working machines on high-speed networks that aren't easy or cheap to drag across the Pacific and then connect to India, you need bodies on site. Even for standard equipment you can buy more of, it's still more productive to work here where you have lots of it and can get spare parts at Fry's than to ship some of it to India and have people use it there. Also, of course, the folks who are good enough to ship halfway around the world to do a job for you are usually the best they've got; they'd get more than the average programmer back in Bangalore as well. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 15 03:25:56 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 18:25:56 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? Message-ID: <199608150736.AAA15028@toad.com> At 11:15 AM 8/15/96 +0600, you wrote: >At 10:27 14/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >>* the role of physical vs. cyberspace data havens >... >>3. Vince seems to be a in a somewhat precarious position, awaiting renewal >>of a one-year work permit. > >I'm sure this has come up before, but what would prevent a server >being located on a buoy or something at sea outside territorial >limits (or when satellites become cheaper, on a satellite itself) >offering such services? Piracy. Some pirates may have black Jolly Roger flags on their ships, but most have flags that say "Coast Guard" or "Navy" or "Harbor Police", and think they're protecting their National Security or something. Satellite launching is generally somewhat government-controlled, though you could get a remailer into space if you didn't tell the government too much about it until it was launched. The US apparently has restrictions on crypto capabilities of satellites launched from the US, according to something I read on the net once. But I suppose you could launch a programmable satellite, and then reprogram it by radio.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 15 03:26:52 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 18:26:52 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? Message-ID: <199608150803.BAA15281@toad.com> At 10:27 AM 8/14/96 -0700, Tim wrote: >* the role of physical vs. cyberspace data havens ..... > so I tended to view data havens as not being tied to physical communities > where the local potentates could revoke work permits, visas, > travel permits, business licenses, etc. Agreed. At least for now, banking havens are a different kind of market than data havens - people want to be able to demonstrate that activities are being run from Non-Taxing states, though there's a parallel need for private data communications to hide any connections back to a potentially more greedy state, and perhaps to move money back home as well. Data havens, on the other hand, may need public ports in tolerant locations, but most of their business really needs to be encrypted any way; the visible parts such as web pages are only a small part of the game. I suspect that, rather than having fixed physical locations, they probably need to operate on a Temporary Autonomous Zone basis, moving elsewhere when a jurisdiction becomes unfriendly but mostly trying to avoid too much notice. >What the form of these "cyberspace data havens" might take is unclear. >Several pieces of technology are missing, just as they were missing four >years ago when one of the early list members contacted me to tell me how >easy it would be to set up a data haven with computers. (It wasn't easy >then, and it ain't easy now. The pieces that are missing are the >reifications of protocols we talk about a lot....mere encryption and >authentication are only the starting points, and look at how hard it's been >just to get _them_ deployed.) Reification is one thing; developing business models and markets is another, and making the activities visible so potential users can _find_ data havens is a third. There are some activities that operate as temporary data havens today - child pornography, warez, police Red Squad and blackmail files on citizens kept illegally on home machines outside the public's control, and other unsavory groups that limit the people who know about them. Public data havens are a bit different. Finding a reason to Just Do It means you either need a real threat model or you end up becoming Yet Another Spam Server like many of the remailers have been. Some things we need to implement Data Havens - 1 - digicash or equivalent - it's coming, but it's not widely used, and if you can't pay anonymously it's tough to pay for data havening anonymously. 2 - practical temporary registration of connections - is hacking a DNS server enough? Or do we need IRC meetmes? Not sure. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From geoff at commtouch.co.il Thu Aug 15 03:31:39 1996 From: geoff at commtouch.co.il (geoff) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 18:31:39 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <19960815074728122.AAA103@geoff.commtouch.co.il> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Thu Aug 15 10:53:53 1996 On 14 Aug unicorn wrote: > "Do all the work I should be doing or have done in the first place > discover the critical flaws in my new-keen-o-ka-jive-o crypto system > and I will give you a free copy of a critically flawed crypto system > (a $99.00 value) ABSOLUTELY FREE. Wait, don't order yet. Included > you also get to> actually whitewash my fence and then mow my lawn. > All at NO COST to you." Unicorn, please try to take a minute to think before hitting that send key. You infer that a product is critically flawed without even trying it ? There are quite a few members of this list who are using Pronto Secure and will testify to the contrary. See http://www.commtouch.com/testers.htm for a list of people who take the trouble to try out a product before venturing an opinion. Agreed that feedback from external testers is a good deal for developers. It is also not a bad deal for evaluators, they get a free copy of a product which in the case of Pronto Secure many find useful (as witnessed by x-mailer headers on c'punk traffic). Testers also get an opportunity to contribute neat feature ideas which helps propagate secure messaging to the masses. Unicorn, you are invited to whitewash my fence :) - --------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Klein, Pronto Secure Product Manager; www.commtouch.com My PGP public Key 1814AD45 can be obtained by sending a message to geoff at commtouch.co.il with "Get PGP Key" as the subject. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMhLXlELv5OMYFK1FAQHoCQP/Tg13glNoTAq4OdHJ5tay+x67kpAg3eIn JwMG/spaV/R5z9iec2wE3BQNWbta2lGF2hZUwkyRNUPX/01024024rg4wp3dIrUQ gk5vl9hG7kbTIOzLKgyEKvQs8yBs+9A3KfE3HY47vm78qMVF0QE11PECMWubnfg6 be7yL9/U64M= =923l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From null at void.com Thu Aug 15 04:02:49 1996 From: null at void.com (The Prisoner) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:02:49 +0800 Subject: Last word: auto video surveillance report[long] Message-ID: <3212CCB0.27EA@void.com> I know this is pushing it as far as crypto-relevance. I won't bring up the subject again. But this was too much to not pass along - there are some interesting insights into the mindset at work, and if I had to justify the cryptorelevance it would be by promoting the value of knowing the mind of Brother ... both Little and Big. For those not familiar with Calif. bureaucratese: "HOV" is "High Occupancy Vehicle" and an "HOV Lane" is a carpool lane. Edited doc. follows (from http://www.bts.gov/smart/cat/274.html): Use of Videotape in HOV Lane Surveillance and Enforcement: Final Report USE OF VIDEOTAPE IN HOV LANE SURVEILLANCE AND ENFORCEMENT FINAL REPORT By John W. Billheimer Ken Kaylor Charles Shade Submitted to State of California Department of Transportation under Contract 55 G710 D232 March 1990 SYSTAN,INC. in ATD,INC. 343 Second Street Association 6431 Independence Avenue P.O. Box U with Woodland Hills, CA 91367 Los Altos, CA 94023 PREFACE AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS This report covers a six-month study designed to explore the use of vidoetape in HOV lane surveillance and enforcement. The study is an extension of an earlier investigation of the effects of different enforcement strategies and engineering designs on violation rates on California's mainline HOV lanes. The report has been prepared in the Los Altos, California offices of SYSTAN, Inc. under Contract No. 55 G71 0 with the California Department of Transportation (CALTRANS). The project was jointly sponsored by the California Highway Patrol (CHP). Mr. Philip Jang, Chief of the HOV Systems Branch of CALTRANS Division of Traffic Operations served as project administrator, while Scott McGowen of CALTRANS acted as the project's technical monitor. ... SYSTAN wishes to thank all those who provided information and insights on the enforcement and operation of California's mainline HOV lanes, and acknowledges full responsibility for the analysis, interpretation, and presentation of the data they provided. ... 1.1.1 Background ... It has been suggested that using video equipment to assist in HOV lane enforcement could reduce the requirements for patrol officers, increase citation rates, and minimize freeway disruption. The current investigation has been designed to extend past studies of HOV lane enforcement by testing both the feasibility and accuracy of the use of video equipment in HOV lane surveillance. 1.1.2 Objective The objective of the current study has been to demonstrate and test the use of video equipment in determining vehicle occupancy, documenting violator identity, and aiding enforcement of HOV lanes. ... Field tests showed that it is technologically possible to record several accurate views of vehicles traveling in mainline HOV lanes. Specifications and costs of the equipment needed for videotape surveillance are summarized below. Cameras. Best results are obtained with high speed color cameras capable of achieving exposure times of 1/1000 of a second. A 14:1 zoom lens is needed to focus on oncoming vehicles at distances of approximately 1200 feet. Cameras placed at eye-level on the freeway itself should be small and unobtrusive. Auxiliary Equipment. Two monitors with split screen capability are required in the control van. One monitor provides an on-line review capability, while the other provides a permanent record of all camera views. A special effects generator should be used to make the exact time and location a permanent part of the videotape record. Polarizing filters help to solve problems with glare from shiny cars and windshields, although they reduce the light-gathering capability of the cameras. Infra-red cameras and light sources can be used to document license plates after dark by videotaping the rear license plates of departing cars. However, it does not appear feasible to videotape oncoming vehicles under conditions of darkness or low visibility. Results are not clear and the infra-red light source can distract oncoming drivers. ... 1.3.3 Potential Applications Although it is technologically possible to record a series of accurate views of vehicles traveling in mainline HOV lanes, no combination of recorded views currently provides enough information to support prosecution for occupancy violators. Even so, videotape surveillance of HOV lanes can provide useful information for a variety of other purposes. These include: 1. Support for on-line enforcement. In cases where there are no refuge areas adjacent to mainline HOV lanes, videotape surveillance provides a means of alerting officers stationed downstream from the cameras to the presence of oncoming violators. 2. Support for remote ticketing . Although videotape by itself does not appear to be accurate enough to provide a basis for citations, the combination of videotape and an observing officer could conceivably provide the accuracy needed for a system of mailed warnings and citations. If a system of mailed warnings or citations can be installed, the officer would not have to pursue violators, and a videotape record of driver, occupancy, and license plate would be available for court hearings. Such a system would be more cost-effective than the current system of freeway pursuit and roadside citing, and will reduce the congestion caused by rubbernecking. 3. Performance Monitoring. There are several applications in which videotape surveillance appears to provide a marked improvement over current practice. These include: (a) Freeway monitoring to document vehicle type and occupancy over time; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ... The cost of videotaping HOV lane activity is more than double the cost of monitoring operations manually. However, videotape provides more accurate records, a consistent data base, and a permanent, verifiable record of traffic activity. It also provides information on the vehicle mix, traffic speed, and the license plates of carpoolers and suspected violators. 1.3.4 Public Reaction In a state in which radar cannot legally be used to enforce speed laws on state freeways, videotape surveillance of HOV lanes has significant legislative and public relations implications. These implications are beyond the scope of the current study. However, two pieces of information related to the current study may shed some light on the potential reactions of the public and the media to the possibility of videotape surveillance. .... Press Coverage. The field tests undertaken during the current study attracted the attention of the Los Angeles media and resulted in a limited amount of press coverage. Articles in the Los Angeles Times and Ontario Daily Report/Progress Bulletin were both balanced and informative. To the extent that these stories can be viewed as an indication of press and public reaction to the use of videotape in HOV lane enforcement, there was no suggestion that CALTRANS and the CHP would be exposed to a massive public outcry if videotape proves to be technologically and legally feasible as an enforcement tool. Furthermore, it can be assumed that the articles themselves made potential HOV lane violators in the Los Angeles area more cautious. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ... Video cameras operating in conjunction with officer observation may provide sufficient accuracy to support mail-out citations for HOV lane occupancy violations. An officer stationed downstream from the video cameras is in a position to verify the occupancy of vehicles which appear suspect to observers monitoring camera output. ... Moreover, the presence of an observing officer may remove some of the "Big Brother is watching" stigma from the use of videotape. From jsw at netscape.com Thu Aug 15 05:18:14 1996 From: jsw at netscape.com (Jeff Weinstein) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 20:18:14 +0800 Subject: Netscape US betas lagging... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3212EBFA.2B5D@netscape.com> Rich Graves wrote: > The international version is 3.0b7. The export-controlled version on wwwus > is two revisions and almost a month behind at 3.0b5. Have y'all simply not > had time/inclination to recompile the 128-bit version with the latest > patches, or is there some sort of trouble brewing? There is no trouble brewing. The final release of 3.0 will be happening shortly. The final US version without expiration will be made available from our US download site. Our process for updating the US download site has not been passed over to our release group, so it still has to be done by engineering. We have been concentrating on getting the release out, and didn't think that it was crucial to get the last few betas out for US download. In the future this will be handled by our release group as part of their automated process, and so you won't see this lag in the future. --Jeff -- Jeff Weinstein - Electronic Munitions Specialist Netscape Communication Corporation jsw at netscape.com - http://home.netscape.com/people/jsw Any opinions expressed above are mine. From a.brown at nexor.co.uk Thu Aug 15 06:14:03 1996 From: a.brown at nexor.co.uk (Andy Brown) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:14:03 +0800 Subject: Fun with M$ Message-ID: <01BB8A9A.ACAA01C0@mirage.nexor.co.uk> On 15 August 1996 06:16, Bill Stewart[SMTP:stewarts at ix.netcom.com] wrote: > >Microsoft has chosen what Sun should have: leave the security to the user, > >don't take it away from everyone. Java has been severely crippled by the > > User? What user? The poor unsuspecting fool who hits the web page? > The kind friendly person who writes web pages that turn off Win95? > Executing signed code from web pages is semi-ok, if the default is to > trust no one and make the user explicitly grant permission to code authors. > Executing anything that comes down the wire is foolish, and writing > software to do so is rabidly negligent. The default (at least on beta-2 of ie) is to not trust anyone unless you explicity say so. If the user then decides to execute "k3wl kontro1" from phreak.net then that's their problem. Does anyone know what the legal implications of signed code are? That is, if Company A signs their Active X control and it's later found to corrupt users data, does the signature (which is supposed to make the user trust the control as safe), open up the company to litigation for damages? From rp at rpini.com Thu Aug 15 06:53:51 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:53:51 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? Message-ID: <9608151046.AA26467@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Thu Aug 15 12:42:40 1996 > I'm sure this has come up before, but what would prevent a server > being located on a buoy or something at sea outside territorial > limits (or when satellites become cheaper, on a satellite itself) > offering such services? Space: How often does your system crash? (Imagine sending a shuttle up there to troubleshoot the server) Sea: If your server swims in the ocean I could think of several drawbacks: - - per satellite only: costs - - must be very robust (salt water, shocks) - - must be powered by battery (Hey Jeff, have you ordered the 2000 Alkaline batteries yet, I think it's about time to change them on the server) - - everybody can go and get it (after all, no jurisdiction also means no protection - I believe that everybody can claim stuff floating in international waters, he just has to get it). But I like the idea anyway. But then again, why don't you just buy an island and get the country to grant you jurisdictional power over it? (sounds a lot cheaper than a satellite) - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMhL/IxFhy5sz+bTpAQE7zggAuCJo0i0X49nmLWtlQ2ZgKcapn80F0z8T +LJ/5SIjcbfvAZOZHKJVRwjh2GmQjaro4AskgBY4UHg2BTumUlsOiLwXM6hvoCx+ mdd2znkiiWfFarD067Vvur7KTSD87XZWMXR9I/8f1ONzWRdASE/kLQ/azCEgne1P GO/u0T0kKWWORSVgLc638U9raxJTPmn0Q6vEwvgVU4ARFGAEIPsFN3p8TfbIBAQ5 SqQbzNShqYzHrLgSDiarH2OyHA6o3hghwK1jUs2zHe2bAxvdjzMc3BaodWOi1tlT DJSq79cTrYItzCK+nn0INtaIeOQy2XwPFEA+1FglIScyxtiPcV0AYQ== =Xwjf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From soldier at phunc.com Thu Aug 15 07:13:30 1996 From: soldier at phunc.com (Soldier) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 22:13:30 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > At 22:43 8/14/96, The Prisoner wrote: > > >>>> It is extremely comforting to me -- I don't know about you -- to think > >>>>that GM will maintain a control center able to communicate with my auto > >>>>electronics. Shit, why not TRW? > > Hacker's delight. > no kidding.. it wouldn't be hard to have something to capture the signal to open the car doors and start the engine. anyhow i wouldn't trust anything to be controled by a radio freq. anyhow.. it never works.. for example the garage door openers (pardon my spelling) people are robbing houses by duplicating the garage door opener signal. -soldier From bart.croughs at tip.nl Thu Aug 15 07:59:37 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 22:59:37 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8AB1.1F348240@groningen10.pop.tip.nl> Sandy Santford wrote: >Bart Croughs wrote: >> If you don't know the answer, there's nothing to be ashamed of. It is just this sort of unnecessary condescending snottiness that create the clear impression that Bart is an asshole. Perhaps he is a fine chap and this is just his style, but I find it very offensive an counter-productive in this discussion. S a n d y< To prove that I'm behaving badly you quote me out of context. My statement 'If you don't know the answer, there's nothing to be ashamed of', was immediately followed by the statement 'I don't know the answer either'. In this context, my statement wasn't that snotty. After all, I made clear that in this respect I wasn't any better than you. So I think you are overreacting a bit. Second, I didn't complain about the tone of your previous posts when you talked about me 'fretting' about the dropping wages of American workers, or when you wrote 'yada, yada, yada' in response to one of my posts. I don't even complain when you call me an asshole (except that maybe next time you start calling names you could be a bit more imaginative...) It's not that important. I guess I just get subconsciously a little irritated, and that's the reason I'm maybe a little less polite when I answer your posts than you would like me to be. So if you want me to behave nicer when I answer your posts, the best way to achieve this would be to start behaving nicer yourself. Bart Croughs From sparks at bah.com Thu Aug 15 08:22:22 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:22:22 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <199608151142.HAA03273@booz.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: geoff at commtouch.co.il, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Thu Aug 15 07:45:59 1996 Nicely Put !! I. for one, love it... warts ( for now ) and all ! To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Thu Aug 15 10:53:53 1996 On 14 Aug unicorn wrote: > "Do all the work I should be doing or have done in the first place > discover the critical flaws in my new-keen-o-ka-jive-o crypto system > and I will give you a free copy of a critically flawed crypto system > (a $99.00 value) ABSOLUTELY FREE. Wait, don't order yet. Included > you also get to> actually whitewash my fence and then mow my lawn. > All at NO COST to you." Unicorn, please try to take a minute to think before hitting that send key. You infer that a product is critically flawed without even trying it ? There are quite a few members of this list who are using Pronto Secure and will testify to the contrary. See http://www.commtouch.com/testers.htm for a list of people who take the trouble to try out a product before venturing an opinion. Agreed that feedback from external testers is a good deal for developers. It is also not a bad deal for evaluators, they get a free copy of a product which in the case of Pronto Secure many find useful (as witnessed by x-mailer headers on c'punk traffic). Testers also get an opportunity to contribute neat feature ideas which helps propagate secure messaging to the masses. Unicorn, you are invited to whitewash my fence :) - --------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Klein, Pronto Secure Product Manager; www.commtouch.com My PGP public Key 1814AD45 can be obtained by sending a message to geoff at commtouch.co.il with "Get PGP Key" as the subject. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMhMN+eJ+JZd/Y4yVAQFQ1wQKA4D7OyVKQDyM93653ffUgG3iRUtMkYc6 ozcSRGz1RHlH2HdUWPuM7M9YGvF8hhcccPwWUA1G1NuJypeEsCwKKHuaEiTIpRVk ZRAb1nA2AP/dLZ2NQTBxDr7JQMZ4zfSfX376Ejk7Ep1oR2XAr/fFP/QYHzpHsvme FYPEzNtejjDQSg== =/O/z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From schmidt at pin.de Thu Aug 15 08:43:10 1996 From: schmidt at pin.de (Stephan Schmidt) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:43:10 +0800 Subject: Jurisdictionless Distributed Data Havens In-Reply-To: <3212B0CB.1AB7@deltanet.com> Message-ID: Some annotations: 1. The easiest way to make such a distributeted data havens (DDH) would be to use a distributed unix file system that doesn't distribute files but chunks of bytes. (Striping) Advantage: - All normal services would work: ftp,http,... - Copying, deleting and modifing files. - Easy to install and use. Problems: Because each side can supply all data (collecting on the fly from other DDHs), the site holder could be responsible for the data. This could be prevented by collecting and assembling data at the client side (e.g. using JAVA). 2. When the DDHs are distributed around the world in a lot of different states, it could be very difficult for any government to get any evidence for "illegal" data on one site. -- stephan From adam at homeport.org Thu Aug 15 08:52:36 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:52:36 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608151351.IAA16343@homeport.org> Black Unicorn wrote: | > The offer is still on. A free copy of Pronto Secure in exchange for | > feedback. Open to anyone on the c'punk list. | | "Do all the work I should be doing or have done in the first place | discover the critical flaws in my new-keen-o-ka-jive-o crypto system and I | will give you a free copy of a critically flawed crypto system (a $99.00 | value) ABSOLUTELY FREE. Wait, don't order yet. Included you also get to | actually whitewash my fence and then mow my lawn. All at NO COST to you." Does the fence painting include plane tickets? :) I've been playing with Pronto, and it seems to be pretty darn good. I stopped using Eudora, since pronto offers the features I want. (Except procmail. Hey Geoff, how about procmail support?) I haven't, and probably won't, delve deep into its crypto features beyond using them; my real keys I keep on a machine with per process memory management and at least a semblance of security. Adam PS: When I say procmail, I mean procmail. I've used a lot of mail processors, and am really impressed by procmail. You can slap a happy windows front end on it, but make it available to your power users. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From declan at eff.org Thu Aug 15 09:57:00 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 00:57:00 +0800 Subject: Crypto Ban Talk @ G-7 In-Reply-To: <32120058.66B2@null.net> Message-ID: I have the text of the resolution passed by G-7 and Russia that moves towards greater controls on crypto at: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ -Declan On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, The Prisoner (tm) wrote: > Well, even tho Tim's language was hypothetical here's this item. Was > some of this on the cpunks and I missed it? Very possible, & if so, > sorry. > > ===============================================[quote:]================= > > > In article , marc at tanda.on.ca (Marc Thibault) > wrote: > > > I picked up a rumor that the G-7 has endorsed a resolution calling > > for international cooperation to control private encryption. Does > > anybody have solid information? > > > > They've been discussing it. The US and some others want it. The Japanese > and one other country won't go along. So far, talk but no action. Stay > tuned. > > David [Sternlight that is ....] > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From talon57 at well.com Thu Aug 15 10:42:38 1996 From: talon57 at well.com (Brian D Williams) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 01:42:38 +0800 Subject: GOP security Message-ID: <199608151407.HAA10014@well.com> > Authorities in Chicago, where the Democrats will meet the last >week of August, are taking similar precautions. Metal detectors, >bomb-sniffing dogs and surveillance cameras will be in force, >along with thousands of police. Coast Guard cutters will patrol >Lake Michigan. Chicago police are sealing an eight-block area >around the United Center sports arena, the main convention site, >to all unauthorized cars, trucks and pedestrians. As the 20th >century nears an end, wary, pervasive security is as much a part >of the convention scene as Old Glory and silly hats. San Diego has >been preparing convention security for more than a year. Then a >bomber on the other side of the country suddenly made everyone >wonder if the next big public event could be free of mayhem and >terror. Taxicabs will have unrestricted access of course and are therefore the vector of choice. I heard an interesting ahem, "rumor" related to security through obscurity- only 2/5 of a major armored car companys trucks are actually armored/bullet resistant glass, the other three are just look-alikes...... saving money.....tsk,tsk. Brian "Zazen? Well it beats sitting around on your ass all day doing nothing." From declan at eff.org Thu Aug 15 10:46:06 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 01:46:06 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Take a look at the Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression's list of enemies of free expression. Excerpt follows. -Declan --- Linkname: Phyllis Schlafly, Eagle Forum Filename: http://www.eff.org/pub/Groups/BCFE/bcfenatl.html#Schlafly Phyllis Schlafly President Eagle Forum Box 618 Alton, IL 62002 618/462-5415 "Leading the pro-family movement to victories since 1972." Basic membership includes a subscription to The Phyllis Schlafly Report and costs $15.00. Mrs. Schlafly, whose husband Fred used to head the World Anti-Communist League, is the person considered most responsible for the defeat of the ERA. Her book A Choice Not an Echo, published in 1964 to support the presidential aspirations of Barry Goldwater, is one of the seminal texts of contemporary American conservative politics. On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > C'punks, > > On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Jim Legg wrote: > > > Beware when politicos speak! > > Good advice, but... > > > Phyllis Schlafly would think nothing of trying to ban speech on > > the internet when it is something that she doesn't agree with. > > An interesting allegation. I wonder if it is merely rhetoric or > if Jim has any evidence to backup this statement? > > Does Jim know who Phyllis' son is? > > > S a n d y > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From mwohler at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 15 11:00:02 1996 From: mwohler at ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 02:00:02 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto Message-ID: <199608151406.HAA07098@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> At 05:47 PM 8/14/96 -0700, SANDY SANDFORT wrote: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > in this battle, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." I appreciate Sandy's enlightened and consistent position. And I will stand with anyone who supports free speech and privacy. Forgive my week character however, if I am forced to hold my nose while I stand with her on this issue. She is the type of free speach advocate who supports the freedom of those who agree with *her*. She is no friend of *mine* From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Thu Aug 15 11:00:14 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 02:00:14 +0800 Subject: Crypto Ban Talk @ G-7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <321333D4.2003@vail.tivoli.com> Declan McCullagh wrote: > > I have the text of the resolution passed by G-7 and Russia that > moves towards greater controls on crypto at: I just have to wonder whether these people expect their measures to really reduce terrorism, or if they simply expect to be able to identify and imprison/kill all the terrorists so that terrorism can be eliminated like smallpox. If the former, I'd say they're stupid, and if the latter, well, I'd say they're stupid. ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From bart.croughs at tip.nl Thu Aug 15 11:02:29 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 02:02:29 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8AC5.1B326AE0@groningen10.pop.tip.nl> Perry Metzger wrote: >No one claimed that you can't increase productivity and income on average under some circumstances by increased capital investment. What was being made fun of was the simplistic misunderstanding of what the underlying mechanisms are. Prices, including the price of labor, are set purely by the marketplace.Under some circumstances, incomes will be determined by investment levels made by employers. Under others, they will not. The important feature is the market principle, not the capital investment. The point of my "green pylons" posting was to note that it is the market direction of the investment and not the investment that is important.< If you mean to say that in a society where the government directs the 'investments' (confiscates the wealth of its citizens and spends it for its own purposes), wages could be lower than in a society where there is less capital accumulated but where private parties direct the investments, then you are right. But Austrian economists like Murray Rothbard, Hans Hermann Hoppe, etc. don't consider government expenditures to be *investments* of capital; they consider all government expenditures to be *consumption*. As an Austrian, you should know this. To quote Murray Rothbard about resource-using expenditures by the government ('Power and market', p. 173, 2nd ed.): "all of this expenditure must be considered *consumption*. Investment occurs where producers' goods are bought by entrepreneurs, not at all for their own use or satisfaction, but merely to reshape and resell them to others - ultimately to the consumers. But government redirects the resources of society to its ends, chosen by it and backed by the use of force. Hence, these purchases must be considered consumption expenditures, whatever their intention or physical result. They are a particular wasteful form of 'consumption', however, since they are generally *not* regarded as consumption expenditures by government officials" Etc. By the way, Jean-Baptiste Say, the French economist, already had the same view a long time ago. >Impediments to trade create wastes of capital just as surely as burning cash in the marketplace does. If you were really an Austrian, and not a confused person, you would know that all the Austrians and Chicago School people are for completely free trade, something you don't seem to get in your expositions on capital flows. Perry< You're setting up a straw man again. As I said several times before, I *am* for completely free trade. Even if the investment of American capital in foreign countries would lead to a lower standard of living for workers in the US, I still would support completely free trade, simply because I support the non-aggression principle. But, as I also said before, I don't believe that investment of American capital abroad would lead to a lower standard of living for American workers (it would lead to relatively lower wages, but I think the advantages of investing abroad would compensate for this). I just don't know how to *prove* this belief. I like to have proof for my beliefs, if only to be able to rebut socialist arguments. That's why I asked my question: how can you prove that the investment of American capital abroad would not hurt workers in the US? Bart Croughs From michael.tighe at Central.Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 11:27:30 1996 From: michael.tighe at Central.Sun.COM (Michael Tighe SUN IMP) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 02:27:30 +0800 Subject: Crypto Ban Talk @ G-7 In-Reply-To: <321333D4.2003@vail.tivoli.com> Message-ID: <199608151454.JAA15809@jeep.Central.Sun.COM> >> I have the text of the resolution passed by G-7 and Russia that >> moves towards greater controls on crypto at: >I just have to wonder whether these people expect their measures to >really reduce terrorism, or if they simply expect to be able to >identify and imprison/kill all the terrorists so that terrorism can >be eliminated like smallpox. I think their theory (like those of the gun and drug banners) is, if it saves just one life, it is worth it. And if it doesn't, so what? From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Thu Aug 15 13:32:21 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 04:32:21 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates In-Reply-To: <3212B1B0.2327@void.com> Message-ID: There is a new system about to be deployed in the UK that combines GPS with cell-phone technology; if the vehicle is stolen it can call the anti-theft service and report the location; I belive the vehicle can also be remotely immobilised.For the truely paranoid out there, the system is known as "SkyNet" :) Simon p.s. If we're talking about "The Prisoner" and cars, does anybody know anywhere I could get a lotus or caterham 7 in the states? --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From dfloyd at io.com Thu Aug 15 13:32:35 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 04:32:35 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608151523.KAA03014@xanadu.io.com> > > > > Hacker's delight. > > > no kidding.. it wouldn't be hard to have something to capture the signal > to open the car doors and start the engine. > anyhow i wouldn't trust anything to be controled by a radio freq. > anyhow.. it never works.. for example the garage door openers (pardon my > spelling) people are robbing houses by duplicating the garage door opener > signal. > > -soldier > I know one lady get robbed several times by people scanning and duplicating codes on the garage opener. There are no garage openers manufacturers who have a "real" crypto challenge/response system. Most just give the code number and the opener verifies that that 8-24 bit code is correct -- real easy to scan or duplicate. The key switches/emergency latches are very easy to bypass as well. The latch can be pried off and these code things can be pried off and bypassed with a simple hot wiring. They don't know anything about tamper switches. From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 15 13:49:55 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 04:49:55 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960815053848.00f05a5c@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > At 09:51 PM 8/14/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: > >[less serious material follows:] > >[Not only will you need the tinfoil lining to your hat, you'll have > >to get some metallic-lined underwear to avoid being entrapped into > >aiding and abetting police pornographers. Maybe Erik's gold-lame' suggestion > >will catch on, at least here in San Francisco....] > Maybe chainmail will come back in style. (Why does the SNL skit of Dan > Ackeroid trying to get through the metal detector covered in chains and > metal fetish gear come to mind...) I was at a convention in Boston last weekend (no, not Macworld) and there was a Chain Mail Vendor there. Had some interesting stuff, including a chain mail cat-o-nine tails, and some other stuff... Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From unicorn at schloss.li Thu Aug 15 14:22:06 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 05:22:06 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer In-Reply-To: <199608150252.TAA29747@infinity.c2.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Lou Zirko wrote: > To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com, geoff at commtouch.co.il > Date: Wed Aug 14 21:52:47 1996 > PGP. If I remember, your platform in Linux Incorrect. > and you should not be so quick > to criticize what you may have not seen. I saw his promotional tactic, and that's what I criticized. > Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 > Zystems lzirko at c2.org > "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From unicorn at schloss.li Thu Aug 15 14:27:09 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 05:27:09 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608150313.WAA08490@einstein> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:24:39 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Black Unicorn > > Subject: Re: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches > > > > Correct. No warrant is required to observe that which is freely collected > > after eminating from the residence of another and observed off his > > property. > > > > Same concept applies to the "sniff" test and ariel views into greenhouses. > > Pitty somebody doesn't bring a suite against the FCC under this logic. It > would particularly impact radar detectors, cell phones, and other types of > scanners. Uh, what is the chain of logic that supports this suit exactly? > > Jim Choate > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From rpowell at algorithmics.com Thu Aug 15 14:42:26 1996 From: rpowell at algorithmics.com (Robin Powell) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 05:42:26 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96Aug15.132311edt.20486@janus.algorithmics.com> >>>>> In article , tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: > At 1:53 AM 8/15/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >> In the USA, we have a system that ensures that the burden of proof is on >> the accuser. > Which explains why in the U.S. the tax authorities take the money first > and then require the citizen to be the "accuser" in Tax Court, pleading to > get his seized assets back. > (To outsiders, the U.S. tax authorities have broad powers to seize > properties without any court process, to attach wages, to deputize > employers and banks as unpaid tax collectors, and to harass citizens. > Citizen-units may sue, of course, but the burden of proof is on them to > prove that they are owed a refund. A man who saves money and puts it in his > mattress can have it seized and taken from him. He must produce proof that > it is his money, never mind that he already paid taxes on it and never mind > that there is no way someone who saves currency can have a proper paper > trail. So much for "burdens of proof.") This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed that would be usable for these purposes) and say to the IRS: Money? What money? Can you find any of my money? I, uhh... lost it! Yeah, that's it!! -Robin In-Reply-To: tcmay at got.net's message of Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:19:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Burden of proof Reply-To: rpowell at algorithmics.com X-Spook: Panama Nazi Treasury explosion terrorist SDI Semtex strategic smuggle References: >>>>> In article , tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: > At 1:53 AM 8/15/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >> In the USA, we have a system that ensures that the burden of proof is on >> the accuser. > Which explains why in the U.S. the tax authorities take the money first > and then require the citizen to be the "accuser" in Tax Court, pleading to > get his seized assets back. > (To outsiders, the U.S. tax authorities have broad powers to seize > properties without any court process, to attach wages, to deputize > employers and banks as unpaid tax collectors, and to harass citizens. > Citizen-units may sue, of course, but the burden of proof is on them to > prove that they are owed a refund. A man who saves money and puts it in his > mattress can have it seized and taken from him. He must produce proof that > it is his money, never mind that he already paid taxes on it and never mind > that there is no way someone who saves currency can have a proper paper > trail. So much for "burdens of proof.") This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed that would be usable for these purposes) and say to the IRS: Money? What money? Can you find any of my money? I, uhh... lost it! Yeah, that's it!! -Robin From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 15 14:43:07 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 05:43:07 +0800 Subject: Schlafly helped defeat ERA, supported Goldwater--where do I sign up? Message-ID: At 1:53 PM 8/15/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Take a look at the Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression's list of >enemies of free expression. Excerpt follows. >Linkname: Phyllis Schlafly, Eagle Forum >Filename: http://www.eff.org/pub/Groups/BCFE/bcfenatl.html#Schlafly > > Phyllis Schlafly .... > "Leading the pro-family movement to victories since 1972." Basic > membership includes a subscription to The Phyllis Schlafly Report and > costs $15.00. Mrs. Schlafly, whose husband Fred used to head the World > Anti-Communist League, is the person considered most responsible for > the defeat of the ERA. Her book A Choice Not an Echo, published in ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 1964 to support the presidential aspirations of Barry Goldwater, is ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > one of the seminal texts of contemporary American conservative > politics. So, she helped defeat the ERA and supported Goldwater. Sounds pretty good to me. From this excerpt, I'd call her a friend of liberty. (Yes, I'm serious. Some of you find it hard to tell when I'm being completely serious and when I'm being facetious, so I thought I'd clarify this.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From unicorn at schloss.li Thu Aug 15 15:00:32 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:00:32 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer In-Reply-To: <19960815074728122.AAA103@geoff.commtouch.co.il> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, geoff wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com > Date: Thu Aug 15 10:53:53 1996 > On 14 Aug unicorn wrote: > > > "Do all the work I should be doing or have done in the first place > > discover the critical flaws in my new-keen-o-ka-jive-o crypto system > > and I will give you a free copy of a critically flawed crypto system > > (a $99.00 value) ABSOLUTELY FREE. Wait, don't order yet. Included > > you also get to> actually whitewash my fence and then mow my lawn. > > All at NO COST to you." > > Unicorn, please try to take a minute to think before hitting that send > key. > > You infer that a product is critically flawed without even trying it ? No, I was merely pointing out that if the review revealed that it had problems (one assumed that the intent of peer review is to reveal such problems in the first place, but perhaps you just like giving software away?) then the offered reward was valueless. > There are quite a few members of this list who are using Pronto Secure > and will testify to the contrary. A lot of people use DES on this list too I'll wager. > See http://www.commtouch.com/testers.htm for a list of people who take > the trouble to try out a product before venturing an opinion. I "tried out" your promotional scheme when I read your message, and it was that scheme which my opinion targeted. > Agreed that feedback from external testers is a good deal for > developers. It is also not a bad deal for evaluators, This is a subjective question. > they get a free > copy of a product which in the case of Pronto Secure many find useful > (as witnessed by x-mailer headers on c'punk traffic). Cypherpunks is always getting the cash poor developer who thinks he very clever because he has to pay testers no money if he offers his new product free to the person who discovers a flaw, or writes a review. >From your home page, I would guess that you request that reviewers allow you to make their comments public. That's called an endorsement, and, by the way, people are usually paid for them. Sometimes in the millions. Think Michael Jordan is getting a deal when you use his name to promote your product and then give him a $99.00 piece of software (which is effectively worth the amount of time it takes to write a few kiss ass paragraphs on the software, not $99.00)? > Testers also get > an opportunity to contribute neat feature ideas which helps propagate > secure messaging to the masses. Alturisim is a pipe dream. > Unicorn, you are invited to whitewash my fence :) Do I have to review pronto secure first? > > - --------------------------------------------------------------- > Geoff Klein, Pronto Secure Product Manager; www.commtouch.com > My PGP public Key 1814AD45 can be obtained by sending a message > to geoff at commtouch.co.il with "Get PGP Key" as the subject. > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From erehwon at c2.org Thu Aug 15 15:16:08 1996 From: erehwon at c2.org (William Knowles) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:16:08 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Arun Mehta wrote: > I'm sure this has come up before, but what would prevent a server > being located on a buoy or something at sea outside territorial > limits (or when satellites become cheaper, on a satellite itself) > offering such services? Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would be older offshore oil platforms, Their size would allow extended living periods, electrcity and communications are in place, They are generally built outside of the territorial waters of most countries to avoid any damage to the shorelines if oil spilled (possibility for becoming its own country?) and with the hoops that Shell Oil went through to please Greenpeace with its last oil platform. You have to wonder how cheap these could sell for just to get them off the oil companies hands? Comments or suggestions? William Knowles erehwon at c2.org -- William Knowles PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key -- Vote for Harry Browne in November -- http://www.HarryBrowne96.org From nobody at replay.com Thu Aug 15 15:23:05 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:23:05 +0800 Subject: remailers/kiddie porn Message-ID: <199608151739.TAA13029@basement.replay.com> Internet Child Porn An Issue At Stockholm Congress STOCKHOLM - Distribution of child pornography on the Internet seems destined to top the issues at the world's first conference against sexual exploitation of children opening later this month in Stockholm. Activists are trying to devise ways of keeping pedophiles from peddling such material on the global computer network, which is already used as a billboard to advertise prostitution and sex tourism and to exchange adult pornography. But not everyone agrees that regulating the Internet or its 20 million users worldwide is the right move. Some advocates say the Internet represents free speech. Others argue that the distribution of child pornography on the Internet is not that widespread. Still, many see it as a problem. "The Internet is like heaven for the pedophile," said Toby Tyler, a United States police officer who lectures at the FBI Academy on child abuse. "As far as our ability to restrict the distribution of child pornography and stop the sexual exploitation of children on the Internet...it's not something that can be done." Campaigners are concerned that unless urgent action is taken to stamp out the Internet's distribution of child porn, whether it features real children or just computer generated images, it could spark greater demand for child pornography. "Neglecting to prohibit computer generated images could well re-establish the commercial trade -- filling bookstores with computer images, de-sensitizing society and fueling demand for such material," said campaigner Margaret Healy from Bangkok-based End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism (ECPAT). Tyler said the Internet has ended the days when pedophiles had to make costly cross-border runs to buy child pornography in countries where laws were laxer and penalties lighter. Now they can obtain and distribute films and photos from their own homes on the Internet with little risk of capture. Tyler said the existence of anonymous re-mailers -- computer systems which accept material transmitted over computer lines and send it out again after coding its original address -- concealed the source of pornography on the Internet. "Before on-line sex material was available, you'd to find someone to sell it to you, trade with you, or produce it yourself. The net provides a very high level of safety." Short of denying people access to the network, he added, there was little to be done. Even convicted pedophiles with access to computers in prisons can get the material. However computer experts agree the existence of just one re-mailing system in a country with more lax laws is enough for the global distribution of child pornography on the Internet. Tyler said the most widely used re-mailing system currently operates from Finland, through which about 99 percent of all child pornography with untraceable address codes passes. But Johan Helsingius, who runs a re-mailing system from Helsinki, said he did not think child pornography was a problem on the Internet or that any of the 10,000 messages which pass through his server daily contained child pornography. "To a large extent the net is self-regulating. As soon as you do something that offends enough people, measures will be taken by those who are involved with the net," he said. ECPAT's Healy said in a report prepared for the five-day Stockholm conference that opens on August 27 that the regulation of child pornography on computers presents special challenges and called on governments to fund better training. "The establishment of an international research organization with...specialists in the areas of investigation, law enforcement, behavioral science, prosecution, law and computer technology could be an invaluable resource for the global community," Healy said. Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Aug 15 15:34:37 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:34:37 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608151851.NAA09462@einstein> Hi all, > On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > > Forwarded message: > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:24:39 -0400 (EDT) > > > From: Black Unicorn > > > Subject: Re: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches > > > > > > Correct. No warrant is required to observe that which is freely collected > > > after eminating from the residence of another and observed off his > > > property. > > > > > > Same concept applies to the "sniff" test and ariel views into greenhouses. > > > > Pitty somebody doesn't bring a suite against the FCC under this logic. It > > would particularly impact radar detectors, cell phones, and other types of > > scanners. > > Uh, what is the chain of logic that supports this suit exactly? Simple actualy. The police don't need a warrant to collect such information because it is in the public domain (ie not private and therefor requiring a search warrant and probable cause). Therefore anybody (not just cops) can pick it up. It is becoming more and more popular for governments to limit the ability of scanners and other such detectors to pick up information supposedly to protect privacy. The above states that if it is eminating from the residence (and by extension person) and is picked up off their property, perhaps on or in public space then it is fair game. Clearly we have two current standards for evidence collection which are directly at odds. States such as N. Carolina (per extension via the 14th) should be prohibited from regulating or otherwise controlling possesion and use of radar detectors (in this case) which are currently illegal for private persons to operate. If the police don't need a warrant to collect information then citizens are equaly able to recieve that information as well. Since the above ruling states that as long as the emissions are eminating from the site and the reception takes place other than at the site (in this case, being inside the police car) , perhaps along a public highway, then no privacy is involved. This means that citizens have a right, by extension, to know when they are being beamed by radar. This same chain of logic can be extended to cell phones and such as well. This connection is even clearer when one realizes that the only difference between IR and your cell phone eminations is frequency. The intermediate vector boson in both cases is a photon. It is similar to arresting somebody for wearing a blue shirt but letting the person wearing the red shirt go free. The rationale being that since the frequency of the blue shirt is higher it is fundamentaly different then the red shirt. This ruling is prima facia evidence that the judicial system as a whole has no clear grasp of technology, not just Internet technology. Jim Choate From dfloyd at io.com Thu Aug 15 15:42:45 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:42:45 +0800 Subject: Jurisdictionless Distributed Data Havens In-Reply-To: <3212B0CB.1AB7@deltanet.com> Message-ID: <199608151452.JAA02130@xanadu.io.com> [...] > > If one site gets shut down by Big Brother, denial of service attack, > etc., the other sites either find a new site to replicate the missing > part to, or they need to reconstruct the data and re-stripe it for the > remaining servers. (Read any networking book with a section on RAID to > see what all this means.) [...] > > The reason data striping is better than a simple mirroring network is > that no single site contains anything useful in itself for the > authorities to use against the server maintainer. (Similar to a remailer > network perhaps) > > An extra feature could be if some major attack was initiated against the > data haven, there could be a dead-man button of some sort to make the > data vanish altogether by sending distress signals to the other servers > (or to at least one server, which could then cascade the signal). BB would follow the signal and pop another person with conspiracy. I have been researching this for a while yet, and have a pretty alpha reference implementation as well as a mailing list exactly on this topic. The problem with a RAID 5 data haven is that something needs to be the controller, to put together and store/retrieve the data. This controller is in one point, and can be found out. What BB could do is smash the controller of the RAID array, then press charges against several of the "hard drive" owners for conspiracy. I am working on a list for this topic (dh-l at lists.io.com, subscribe on majordomo at lists.io.com), but I have had problems with getting a the reply block correct, most likely due to me being very new to majordomo type lists. Another problem with this way of a data haven is the way network traffic gets transfered around. To have it more anonymous, DC net technology can be used, but this very hard to implement. As of now, I am looking for someone who can help me implement a redundant controller system, so when the DH is contacted, even if the first one if smashed, the "RAID" stays operable. Currently, the data haven program just wakes up on input from a .forward file into its stdin and acts on it. From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Thu Aug 15 15:51:42 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:51:42 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! In-Reply-To: <199608151523.KAA03014@xanadu.io.com> Message-ID: Another UK vehicle security reply (disclaimer: my dad's company installs alarms, imobilisers, lojack/skynet, etc.) The first generation of remote-keyed car-alarms used a static key. It didn't take long before people had modified scanners to record the key and play it back as soon as the driver had left. The current generation uses what is described as "rolling code random encryption". From what I could work out from talking to people, this scheme works something like a one time password scheme, but with no feedback from server (car) to client (keyfob). It seems that the keyfob has persistent state in the form of a counter, which is incremented every time the key is pressed. This counter is combined with the encryption key and the resulting cyphertext is then transmitted. The car keeps a record of the last successful sequence number, and will not allow earlier sequences to be replayed. The car will accept sequence numbers within a certain range of the last successful one, in case a particular try is not recieved, or the key is jostled in ones pocket. I don't know how strong the algorithms are, or how long the keys are; there are supposed to be minimum requirements on key length, but I don't know if the approval body evaluates the crypto. Simon --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 15 15:54:37 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:54:37 +0800 Subject: Press Release: Apple's CyberDog Web Bowser Message-ID: *** PRESS RELEASE *** APPLE COMPUTER UNLEASHES CYBERDOG WEB BOWSER August 15, CUPERTINO. It may be the dog days of summer to some, but to Apple, it's the season CyberDog (tm), its new Web bowser, goes into heat. "CyberDog (tm) is the new dog in town," says Gil Ameliorate, the new leader of the pack at Apple. "CyberDog (tm) should convince our skeptics that Apple is not going to the dogs, except on our own terms. We have always been committed to dogs, as demonstrated by our many Apple and Claris products named after dogs, including Retriever, Pointer, Finder, and Setter." The CyberDog (tm) Bowser (tm) differs from conventional Web browsers by offering several important features built in the Apple mode. Using the OpenDog (tm) object-oriented parts system, Apple is delivering CyberDog with WOOF, the Web OpenDog Object Filer. According to one developer who's used OpenDog and WOOF, "I especially like the way it gets rid of DO loops and replaces them with object-oriented DogDoo loops. It's really bitchin!" The CyberDog (tm) Bowser (tm) offers several additional features, including a security shell called DogPound (tm), a new speech synthesis system called OpenDogBark (tm) and an improvement over Netscape's "cookies," which Apple calls MilkBones (tm). "We lift our legs and piss on Netscape and Microsoft," said Mr. Ameliorate. "We are marking our territory with this release of CyberDog. For those who are dog tired of Netscape and are suffering the lassietude of conventional Web browsers, our new bowser will be the paws that refreshes." Spokesdogs at Apple also confirm that Apple plans to directly compete with Microsoft with an operating system product based on AMD's "K9" chip. The product, known as "WinDog '97," will appear before Copeland, now delayed to 1999. "We think WinDog '97 will chase that other dog out of town." Microsoft could not be reached for comment, but a Netscape spokesman said "Netscape is the cat's meow. That Dog won't hunt. They're barking up the wrong B-tree." Those interested in taking CyberDog out for a walk, or just sniffing its butt, can find further information at: http://www.banana.com/~farce/OpenDogDoo/ CyberDog, OpenDog, Bowser, WOOF, DogPound, OpenDogBark, MilkBones, and WinDog '97 are copyrighted terms of Apple Computer, a member of the NASDOG stock exchange. (Credit to my friend Paul Engel for coming up with the "bowser" pun which inspired me to write this. He also was the first to comment while back that AMD's "K6" clone chip ought to be called the "K9." The rest are mine. I still use Macintoshes, so take this in the spirit of good fun. I do think, though, that "CyberDog" is a really stupid name for a product.) From jeremey at forequest.com Thu Aug 15 15:56:25 1996 From: jeremey at forequest.com (Jeremey Barrett) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:56:25 +0800 Subject: PGP/Unix scripts, mail proggies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Chris Lee wrote: > Hello all, > > I joined this list a while ago and am curious whether a there is a > simple way to encrypt/decrypt e-mail with PGP in a Linux(Unix) > enviroment...? Sorry if this has been answered a thousand times, but it > would really make PGP a more viable option with my small ISP. > > Thank you very much for any answers, please reply to me personally. > Here's what I use, a simple sh script with pine for signing/encrypting. #!/bin/sh # Written by: Jeremey Barrett # # Simple as hell sh script for automating PGP. I use pine, and have not # tried this with any other mailer, but it should work. The version of this I # use asks all kinds of questions about using remailers and nym servers # before editing the mail, so it can toss in templates and such. Anyway, # hack this at will. # # Pine configgy stuff I use with this: # # A) enable-alternate-editor-cmd # B) enable-alternate-editor-implicitly # C) signature-at-bottom # D) editor= # I would use emacs cept that firing it up for every mail I send would suck PGPEDITOR='pico -z -t' # Some echos don't like -n, modify if necessary ECHOTYPE='echo -n' # Edit the mail... the mailer shold give us the tmp file as $1 $PGPEDITOR $1 clear # Annoy with questions $ECHOTYPE "PGP sign this message? [n] " read PGP if [ "$PGP" = "y" -o "$PGP" = "Y" ] then $ECHOTYPE "PGP encrypt this message? [n] " read PGPE if [ "$PGPE" = "y" -o "$PGPE" = "Y" ] then pgp -east +clearsig=ON $1 mv $1.asc $1 else pgp -sat +clearsig=ON $1 mv $1.asc $1 fi else $ECHOTYPE "PGP encrypt this message? [n] " read PGPE if [ "$PGPE" = "y" -o "$PGPE" = "Y" ] then pgp -eat $1 mv $1.asc $1 fi fi - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeremey Barrett Senior Software Engineer jeremey at forequest.com The ForeQuest Company http://www.forequest.com/ PGP Public Key: http://www.forequest.com/people/jeremey/pgpkey.html "less is more." -- Mies van de Rohe. - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhNo0i/fy+vkqMxNAQHwRgP/etGXm06WG7yTVLYYKbwmasezVJX9RScS kyY4kWornpBQvTRK7VKNAzVH5Pe7lXFtQAL1kpVtuNxwXsZf2tKVzXC8ZwhCF8eZ poAH6m8pE6d9n2Ft22PTOza6URU+Lx+18D3AoNyEvEQE8xMaMIOno121eiq5/Smk 5BOPFkSuzKM= =EUq6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dfloyd at io.com Thu Aug 15 15:59:49 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:59:49 +0800 Subject: Jurisdictionless Distributed Data Havens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608151830.NAA10012@xanadu.io.com> > > > Some annotations: > > 1. The easiest way to make such a distributeted data havens (DDH) > would be to use a distributed unix file system that > doesn't distribute files but chunks of bytes. (Striping) > Like AFS? > Advantage: > - All normal services would work: ftp,http,... > - Copying, deleting and modifing files. > - Easy to install and use. > > Problems: > Because each side can supply all data (collecting on > the fly from other DDHs), the site holder > could be responsible for the data. > This could be prevented by collecting and > assembling data at the client side (e.g. using > JAVA). How many people trust clients? If we wanted clients, we would use WebStor from Mcaffee. I don't trust any clients specific to one task, and would rather use generic E-mail/ftp/www. > > 2. When the DDHs are distributed around the world in > a lot of different states, it could be very > difficult for any government to get any evidence for > "illegal" data on one site. In some countries, when the government jails someone, it doesn't matter what evidence they have. Not everyone has a justice system that at least makes an attempt to give a fair trial. From lzirko at c2.org Thu Aug 15 16:00:22 1996 From: lzirko at c2.org (Lou Zirko) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:00:22 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <199608151852.LAA17998@infinity.c2.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com, geoff at commtouch.co.il Date: Thu Aug 15 13:52:27 1996 > On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Lou Zirko wrote: > > PGP. If I remember, your platform in Linux > > Incorrect. Sorry about that, I stand corrected. > > > and you should not be so quick > > to criticize what you may have not seen. > > I saw his promotional tactic, and that's what I criticized. This `promotional tactic` was in response to a prior list message asking about the offer. Because of this, I think criticizm was unwarrented. But enough about this. > > > Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 > > Zystems lzirko at c2.org > > "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye > > -- > I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist > unicorn at schloss.li > > > Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko at c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMhNx/stPRTNbb5z9AQEKdgf/QS/LXvn4IQek4VMbeGaoGd1W+nnJd8Sa UbxoPp2vog6nwI8mwLQTZtVrhCHSaalW2ykufksrFccDPzCH/nNYkljay4ugVgoe G31SATr5DS9WSbSmgLa6Ssb+hyYJVQhBhWRVEkd06vBAqxoc6hmlVZKF2YzzBDBA jZ5hKxWAdRb4dJ72NuzLk09UC5IOKFCd3/a1rcE6ocUTu7w0djIceE+d0+65wLzj O93F2BndoxLT60RQ/vUTqyoXjnvpdABfyE6r7oAvfOfNjwz6+/V1oyVcFKBUTzDA 17K701IFUYjKzTD7I5JfNVwi69sfwRq0KuQgh/iZNERTJwFt/hQkPQ== =Ht0y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bart.croughs at tip.nl Thu Aug 15 16:06:23 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:06:23 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8AF2.6C7BEC00@groningen10.pop.tip.nl> Perry Metzger wrote: >From: Bart Croughs You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the U.S. is worse off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how can you proof that the US isn't worse off when US capital moves abroad?< Simple. Keeping capital from flowing wherever it likes leads to a non-pareto optimal state. Care to dispute that? Perry - - - - - - - - - For those who don't know what the Pareto optimum is: it's an allocation of resources such that no one can be made better off without someone else being made worse off. So what you say is that you can't keep capital from flowing wherever it likes without someone being made worse off. Of course I do not dispute this; obviously, the US investors will be worse off when you forbid them to invest where they want to invest. But this is not a proof that the rest of the US citizens will not be worse off when American investors decide to invest abroad. And that is the proof I'm asking for. Bart Croughs From gjdemetr at infi.net Thu Aug 15 16:06:38 1996 From: gjdemetr at infi.net (Gregory Demetrick) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:06:38 +0800 Subject: PGP/Unix scripts, mail proggies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Jeremey Barrett wrote: > On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Chris Lee wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > I joined this list a while ago and am curious whether a there is a > > simple way to encrypt/decrypt e-mail with PGP in a Linux(Unix) > > enviroment...? Sorry if this has been answered a thousand times, but it > > would really make PGP a more viable option with my small ISP. > > > > Thank you very much for any answers, please reply to me personally. > > > > Here's what I use, a simple sh script with pine for signing/encrypting. > > #!/bin/sh > > # Written by: Jeremey Barrett > # > # Simple as hell sh script for automating PGP. I use pine, and have not > # tried this with any other mailer, but it should work. The version of this I > # use asks all kinds of questions about using remailers and nym servers > # before editing the mail, so it can toss in templates and such. Anyway, > # hack this at will. > # There is also a utilitie I use called mkpgp. It also envokes the alternate editor for encryption and decryption of signed mail. It also has an extensive readme and help files. To get it you can do the following: If you send blank e-mail to slutsky at lipschitz.sfasu.edu with Subject: mkpgp They will mail you everything you need to get started. It took me about 20 Minutes to get it up and running. Greg Demetrick Pub Key: http://www.infi.net/~gjdemetr/greg.txt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Processed by mkpgp2.0, a Pine/PGP interface. iQB1AwUBMhN8LkHPUq9jfdGZAQH+bQL+MeJSM/WsDKpoeAp1yT/kQth3CoPqJirJ ei3FigQ024ThLZSjcaNjK212ynmpojEcGAepEzJ4jQc8Lgd2WII9ZGi3tpbCh7tB OaxUDqV2sTHvkvGUvA/ByVwOe80uwpdd =4h3N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 15 16:14:51 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:14:51 +0800 Subject: Press Release: Apple's CyberDog Web Bowser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:02 PM -0400 8/15/96, Timothy C. May wrote: > *** PRESS RELEASE *** > > APPLE COMPUTER UNLEASHES CYBERDOG WEB BOWSER > Those interested in taking CyberDog out for a walk, or just sniffing its > butt ... Cyberdog doesn't suck. It licks. Why? Because it can. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 15 16:22:00 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:22:00 +0800 Subject: Schlafly helped defeat ERA, supported Goldwater--where do I sign up? Message-ID: <199608152000.NAA03130@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:48 AM 8/15/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 1:53 PM 8/15/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>Take a look at the Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression's list of >>enemies of free expression. Excerpt follows. >>Linkname: Phyllis Schlafly, Eagle Forum >>Filename: http://www.eff.org/pub/Groups/BCFE/bcfenatl.html#Schlafly >> >> Phyllis Schlafly >.... >> "Leading the pro-family movement to victories since 1972." Basic >> membership includes a subscription to The Phyllis Schlafly Report and >> costs $15.00. Mrs. Schlafly, whose husband Fred used to head the World >> Anti-Communist League, is the person considered most responsible for >> the defeat of the ERA. Her book A Choice Not an Echo, published in > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> 1964 to support the presidential aspirations of Barry Goldwater, is > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> one of the seminal texts of contemporary American conservative >> politics. > >So, she helped defeat the ERA and supported Goldwater. Sounds pretty good >to me. From this excerpt, I'd call her a friend of liberty. I think it's interesting that one of the most effective methods the Democrats used to defeat Goldwater was the fear that he would get us into war (Girl and daisy ad, for example) and when Johnson was elected he promptly got us into the Vietnam war. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From stephen at iu.net Thu Aug 15 16:23:42 1996 From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:23:42 +0800 Subject: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960815201644.00b5fe20@iu.net> Speaking as someone who seldom agrees with Phyllis Schlafly...and not meaning to be overly ignorant or paranoid or disrespectful, but is there any link between her column and Roger Schlafly, as in: Schlafly v. Public Key Partners & RSA Data Security, Case C-94-20512 SW PVT or is it mere coincidence. Reminds me of the Doonesbury cartoon of conspiracy theorists, circa O.J. case: "Wait a minute, Hertz has an office in Dallas." "Coincidence?" "I don't think so." Stephen From bart.croughs at tip.nl Thu Aug 15 16:25:51 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:25:51 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8AF2.52CFF620@groningen10.pop.tip.nl> Blanc Weber wrote: >Are you the one putting up the objections? Are you the one who does not want to see the proof which you are asking for? I would think that after having read Mises, Hayek, et al, the economic cause&effect principles which they outlined would make the resulting situation pretty clear. .. Blanc< If the situation is so clear, why can't you give the proof I'm asking for? Bart Croughs From win-request at metrics.com Thu Aug 15 16:41:15 1996 From: win-request at metrics.com (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:41:15 +0800 Subject: Win NT - Internet Security Alert (fwd) Message-ID: I'm not approving this for comp.os.ms-windows.announce, but I figure it's on-topic here (what isn't?). I was intrigued by their "proprietary procedures to recover Windows NT installation with a lost administrator's password." (The procedure I'd suggest: boot from a DOS or Linux floppy with an NTFS driver. Back up all the application and data files you want saved. Reformat the drive, install NT, and restore the saved files.) By the way, did you hear the one about the Microsoft tech support recommendation to put the perl.exe interpreter into a world-executable directory? www.bugnet.com -rich ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 15 Aug 1996 19:50:47 GMT From: MWC at news.ee.net, "Inc. NT Security team" To: comp-os-ms-windows-announce at uunet.uu.net Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.announce, comp.os.ms-windows.misc, comp.os.ms-windows.networking.misc, comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip Subject: Win NT - Internet Security Alert *** Win NT / Internet Security Alert *** Our survey has shown that more than 50% of NT based Web Sites do not pay proper attention to Internet security aspects. These sites are extremely vulnerable, others are vulnerable to some extent. We were surprised to find that this relaxed approach to Windows NT / Internet security does not depend on a size of a company, etc. MWC (http:\\www.omna.com\Yes\MWC\) provides unique recovery and security services for Windows NT based networks connected to the Internet. We can help you to make your network truly secure. 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More information about this service is available at: http://www.omna.com/yes/mwc/prs-index.htm *** NT Network Examination *** MWC offers Network Examination Services for Windows NT based Internet connected Networks to help you answer the following questions: 7 Is your Internet Server Vulnerable? 7 Is your Production Server Vulnerable? 7 Is your Network Vulnerable? *** Partial List of Satisfied Customers*** is published at: http://www.omna.com/yes/mwc/cust-security.htm For more information please contact Andy Pozo, Director of Sales AndyPozo at box.omna.com , Tel 614-263-0662 Fax 614-263-0663 MWC NT Security Team. From bryce at digicash.com Thu Aug 15 16:41:25 1996 From: bryce at digicash.com (bryce at digicash.com) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:41:25 +0800 Subject: PGP/Unix scripts, mail proggies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608152007.WAA12491@digicash.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I have an sh script to automate PGP usage, available for 50 cents in Ecash from "http://www.c2.net/~bryce/BAP.html" or for free by e-mailing me and asking politely. BAP is simple enough that my mother can use it, and functional enough that I use it. Regards, Bryce -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2 iQB1AwUBMhODZUjbHy8sKZitAQGr1AL+LjpppE77K8qNhcpblSI178BfC/hRBQ8u MM63n006/i0oSqsvybB5VrKp8U25bjYERH1xNVaGynZQVT7UME+qlFK6qdfo+Wbg 5OkPOqOPz4wN28MQ6M87NdHoJM97nDjj =Bn+w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mattt at microsoft.com Thu Aug 15 16:45:10 1996 From: mattt at microsoft.com (Matt Thomlinson) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:45:10 +0800 Subject: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto Message-ID: relation: mother-son >---------- >From: Stephen Cobb[SMTP:stephen at iu.net] >Sent: Thursday, 15 August, 1996 1:16 PM >To: jim bell >Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com >Subject: Re: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto > >Speaking as someone who seldom agrees with Phyllis Schlafly...and not >meaning to be overly ignorant or paranoid or disrespectful, but is there any >link between her column and Roger Schlafly, as in: > >Schlafly v. Public Key Partners & RSA Data Security, Case C-94-20512 SW PVT > >or is it mere coincidence. > >Reminds me of the Doonesbury cartoon of conspiracy theorists, circa O.J. >case: "Wait a minute, Hertz has an office in Dallas." >"Coincidence?" >"I don't think so." > >Stephen > > From schneier at counterpane.com Thu Aug 15 17:24:43 1996 From: schneier at counterpane.com (Bruce Schneier) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:24:43 +0800 Subject: Can someone validate this code? In-Reply-To: <199608151059.DAA01125@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: This looks like something that was anonymously posted to the Internet about a year ago. It is widely believed to be a hoax; if nothing else, the key schedule is horrible. David Wagner broke the algorithm based on the key schedule alone. This is what I wrote about S-1 last time around.... Bruce ----------------------------seperator--------------------------------- I was in Europe while S-1 was posted, so I missed most of the discussion. Better late than never.... Over the last year, I have spent considerable effort collecting SKIPJACK information. I have gone through the published literature, the rumors, and a large stack of documents received by EPIC through Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits. At Crypto last week I gave a Rump Session talk entitled "Reverse Engineering SKIPJACK from Open Sources." I prepared the slides before I left for Europe. Here is what I said: What the government told us: Single-key block cipher. Can be used in ECB, CBC, CFB, or OFB. 64-bit block size. 80-bit key size. What the review committee told us: 32 rounds. No weak keys (like DES has). No key complementation property (like DES has). What the hardware specifications tell us: The latency of the Mykotronx chip has 64 clock cycles. This means two clock cycles per round. Assorted rumors (excuse me if I don't reveal sources): SKIPJACK does not have rounds in the same sense that DES does: i.e., half of the text block is not encrypted in each round. SKIPJACK has half the total S-box data as DES. SKIPJACK has a 48-bit internal structure analogous to a 32-bit internal structure in DES. The masks for the Clipper/Capstone chip are unclassified and the chips can be produced in an unclassified foundry. Part of the programming in the secure vault includes installing part of the SKIPJACK algorithm. The part of the algorithm installed in the secure vault are the "S-tables", suggesting that perhaps unprogrammed Clipper chips can be programmed to implement other 80-bit key, 32 round ciphers. Trying to puzzle out the meaning of the third rumor, Matt Blaze and I invented something called an Unbalanced Feistel Network. These are Feistel networks where the source and target blocks are of different size. For example, in each round 48 bits might be used as an input into the F function, and produce 16 output bits to be XORed with the remainder of the bits. We called this a 48:16 UFN, and we proposed a design at last year's Algorithms Workshop in Leuven. Our design was broken, but I am still examining the structure. A 48:16 UFN satisfies the first and third rumor above, and I think it as good a guess as any regarding SKIPJACK. A few months ago, I found some additional information in the form of documents released under FOIA. One document was a Mykotronx design review for "Project Capstone" dated 10 December 1991. The design review was unclassified. Among the details about the modular multipliers and the SHA code was the following page about SKIPJACK: ECB Processing Rate 2 clocks per G-Box operation x 1 G-box per shift x 32 shifts per ECB encryption ______________________________ 64 clocks per ECB 64 clocks per ECB / 64 bits out per ECB = 1 clock per bit Yields 40 Mbit encryption using a 40 MHz clock. The only other thing I found was a SECRET memo. The organization name (either from or to) is blacked out. The date is 25 August 1992. The subject is "SKIPJACK Revision." Paragraph 2 is blacked out, but paragraph 1 reads: 1. (U) The enclosed Informal Technical Report revises the F-table in SKIPJACK 3. No other aspect of the algorithm is changed. That's it. Rounds are called "shifts," which seems to indicate that they are not "rounds" in the DES sense. A shift consists of a "G-box" operation, which includes not only what we call the F- F-function but the XOR as well. And there is something called an F-table, which could be a table of constants or perhaps a table of functions. In any case, it is something that can be revised without changing the rest of the algorithm. Now let's look at S-1. The most probable explanation is that it is a hoax. But it is a very good hoax: The hoaxer knew enough about algorithm design to make a cipher that was not obviously lousy, while at the same time not unduly complicated. The hoaxer knew enough to make a design that included three novel ideas not seen anywhere else: S-boxes that are created according to no known criteria, a G-table that chooses a rotation of S-boxes to use in a given round, and a bizarre key schedule. The hoaxer knew enough about how algorithms are used in the military to make a spookish interface. I am particularly interested in the "zeroize" function, the separation of the key creation and key loading functions, and the key masking. Blaze said that the interface was similar to the Fortezza interface, but not the same. The hoaxer knew about Blaze's and my MacGuffin paper and that we thought SKIPJACK was a 48:16 UFN. We made no secret about this, and our paper is on Blaze's web page. The hoaxer knew to use the term F-table. I haven't shown many people what I found in EPIC's documents, so the hoaxer either had to look through them himself or get them by some other means (maybe an independent FOIA request). It's not a perfect hoax, though. The classification markings look odd: NSA algorithms are SECRET, not TOP SECRET, and the codeword restriction sentence is strange. The key schedule is hopelessly flawed (David Wagner posted an attack to sci.crypt). The coding style is amateurish, like it was translated from one language to another. (Maybe this is clever on the hoaxer's part.) And there's even a typo in the code. And maybe the hardware latency is wrong. Clearly the design facilitates parallelization. You can precompute all possible F- table outputs in previous shifts, and then use the G-table result to select between them; I am not sure you can get a shift down to two clock cycles. I don't have the hardware background, and would appreciate comments from others. And why are there not bitwise permutations? If SKIPJACK is designed for hardware, it makes sense to put them in. They're free, after all. Anyway, it's a real good hoax. Blaze estimated that he could have done it, but it would have taken him a month of effort. I agree with his assessment: one man-month. It's a lot of time to spend on a hoax, especially one where the hoaxer doesn't get any credit. So, maybe it's SKIPJACK. It has a 64-bit block size and an 80- bit key size. It's a 48:16 UFN with 32 rounds (or shifts, or whatever). And it has an F-table. This is really interesting, because the structure really is an S-box. Everyone knows it's an S-box, and it makes no sense for a hoaxer to call it something else. But in S-1 it's called an F-table. (I think this is very significant, but others find it less convincing.) And the F-table has been revised at least once. In the code it says that the F-table entries "differ in the S-2 version." The code is dated 1 February 1989 and 31 July 1991, and I have a memo dated 25 August 1992 that says the F-table has been revised in "SKIPJACK 3." Pretty convincing, I think. (Of course this means that we can't confirm anything by testing the hardware, since the F-table entries are different.) Maybe there are no bit permutations because they make analysis harder, and perhaps they don't add all that much. Maybe the algorithm was designed for both hardware and software, or maybe it was designed for specialized cryptographic hardware with several parallel microprocessors and some cryptographic primitives. If it is real, we have a lot to learn about S-box design. The S- boxes are not even balanced. Maybe they are created just so to avoid some bizarre attack we can only dream about, but I kind of doubt it. But the key schedule is just plain wrong. So, here's a theory. Let's assume the code is real. (Not that it's SKIPJACK, but that it's a real algorithm from some military or some corporation.) Clearly the code is not designed to test the cryptographic algorithm, but to simulate some kind of hardware interface: it's called a "software chip simulator." If I were the NSA and I designed an algorithm whose security rested on some tables of constants, I might replace them with phony constants before giving them to another organization to test. I might call the phony version S-1 and the real version S-2. Maybe the code was originally written in FORTRAN, and then translated into C. (NSA doesn't use ADA.) NSA algorithms are classified SECRET, put perhaps algorithms in development are classified TOP SECRET. (We know cryptanalytic techniques can be TOP SECRET, so perhaps commented code falls under that category as well.) And maybe the code originally didn't have an 80-bit key schedule. Maybe it had a longer key schedule. The poster then modified this key schedule to make it look more like SKIPJACK. (This might also explain the bug in the code, which might not be a bug if it still had the original key schedule.) Which leaves us precisely nowhere. The most likely explanation is that it is a hoax, but I am hard-pressed to imagine a hoaxer with the requisite combination of skills, resources, and attitude. I also don't believe that it is SKIPJACK. It might be a preliminary design for SKIPJACK, but if both the key schedule and F-table entries are wrong, we really haven't learned anything. If we suddenly discovered that unbalanced S-boxes are far superior to balanced ones, then all best are off. Bruce ************************************************************************** * Bruce Schneier APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY, 2nd EDITION is * Counterpane Systems available. For info on a 15% * schneier at counterpane.com discount offer, send me e-mail. * * For Blowfish C code, see ftp.ox.ac.uk:/pub/crypto/misc/blowfish.c.gz ************************************************************************** From svmcguir at syr.edu Thu Aug 15 17:25:21 1996 From: svmcguir at syr.edu (Scott McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:25:21 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Re: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB89EA.FB826540@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >From: Bart Croughs > >You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the U.S. is >worse off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how can you proof >that the US isn't worse off when US capital moves abroad? I recall you were interested in how the Austrians would answer this. I think that they would object to the question because of their aversion to aggregates. Some individuals are better off and some worse off. The Austrians would deny that you can sum the results for individuals and get a result for the economy as a whole. This is because of Austrian subjectivity. Assume that I move a programming job to India, and make the required capital investments. I am presumably better off (otherwise I wouldn't have moved the capital). The worker I fire here in the US is worse off. (Other effects you have mentioned go here). Now, considering only me and the laid off worker, is this change overall good or bad? To answer this, you would have to compare the value of my gain to the value of the workers loss. But you can't. Value is subjective. And, it only gets harder when you try to take into account the other people affected. P.S. Bart, your quotes of other people are hard to follow. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMhObE97xoXfnt4lpAQEU2AQAtllFg2gajiVhZqQoEJ5+yP9JvalU6ZiZ MD0L8CB+P04r0ICHrP2uhj40IUj2MTrb62JcHqKjrW5QU/51u+F4OfAryB4uHivH qz3WiAbscQgZTOf/zRyU7hBCSxQkYE/CZeDPjXPs8++6a0TvmJTlNp9KpJ1wIwgz eGgkhKQoaPY= =6ytQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------- Scott McGuire PGP key available at http://web.syr.edu/~svmcguir From blancw at microsoft.com Thu Aug 15 17:29:08 1996 From: blancw at microsoft.com (Blanc Weber) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:29:08 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: >From: Bart Croughs > > If the situation is so clear, why can't you give the proof I'm asking for? ................................................ Well, first of all, I never intended to provide one. I don't know why you are asking for proof. I don't know why anyone should be moved to give one to you. .. Blanc > > > From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 15 17:29:31 1996 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:29:31 +0800 Subject: Jurisdictionless Distributed Data Havens In-Reply-To: <3212B0CB.1AB7@deltanet.com> Message-ID: <4v05k2$jq9@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <3212B0CB.1AB7 at deltanet.com>, Kevin Stephenson wrote: >DigiCash will never work in my book because it requires an account, Actually, it doesn't... It's just that in order to use DigiCash's ecash without an account, you need a slightly cooler client, which (AFAIK) nobody's gotten around to writing (yet). - Ian "you'll have to wait until after Crypto..." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhOZvEZRiTErSPb1AQFlZAP7B7jpZguOk0vA30pkgY6W17SHf/F8ik1/ SOWYiYdSzZ9go9BhoMQyyF68EzzUgwtsqlD3RAU31eMIqMrsAKaHDwp8bMHo7wUc FgQZtMniJlPj1oukLegFpueDAEcKhM+HDaYehgeKvf24CSlw3o6vi1li7x4R1GKc 22aco7e6/s4= =W86h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dfloyd at io.com Thu Aug 15 17:44:24 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:44:24 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608152134.QAA17950@xanadu.io.com> > > Another UK vehicle security reply (disclaimer: my dad's company installs > alarms, imobilisers, lojack/skynet, etc.) > > The first generation of remote-keyed car-alarms used a static key. It > didn't take long before people had modified scanners to record the key > and play it back as soon as the driver had left. > > The current generation uses what is described as "rolling code random > encryption". From what I could work out from talking to people, this > scheme works something like a one time password scheme, but with no > feedback from server (car) to client (keyfob). It seems that the keyfob > has persistent state in the form of a counter, which is incremented > every time the key is pressed. This counter is combined with the > encryption key and the resulting cyphertext is then transmitted. > > The car keeps a record of the last successful sequence number, and will > not allow earlier sequences to be replayed. The car will accept sequence > numbers within a certain range of the last successful one, in case a > particular try is not recieved, or the key is jostled in ones pocket. > > I don't know how strong the algorithms are, or how long the keys are; > there are supposed to be minimum requirements on key length, but I don't > know if the approval body evaluates the crypto. > > Simon That is known for cars. I double checked, and found some car alarms able to do this. However, I have not found any house garage door openers able to pull this off. Most still use the old blurt code method. Ironically, there are gate openers which have this technology in them (rolling code.) From cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Thu Aug 15 18:18:36 1996 From: cdaemon at goblin.punk.net (Checkered Daemon) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:18:36 +0800 Subject: RANT re: National Socio-Economic Security Need for In-Reply-To: <199608150629.XAA03193@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: <199608152226.PAA23432@goblin.punk.net> James A. Donald opines: > At 06:24 PM 8/13/96 -0700, Checkered Daemon wrote: > > a) Knowledge jobs require tremendous capital investment, as in degrees, > > training, continual updating of skills, etc. > > But they do not require much capital investment by the boss. That is > to say the key corporate assets are increasingly owned by the employees, > > At some point one would expect this to lead to a change in business > structure, but I see no signs of this happening. One large change, which has been discussed previously on the list, is that management is becoming more and more a function of specifying WHAT is to be done, rather than HOW it is to be done. This leads to a business model based more on the independent contractor (whether it's a single individual, or a business that does 'outsourcing' work) than the traditional industrial assembly line. Add ubiquitous high-speed data communications networks, and suddenly national governments become not only irrelevant, but actual impediments to a free market economy. Potholes, if you will, on the information superhighway (attribution to T. May). The structural changes are many. Worldwide regulatory and tax arbitrage. Elimination of the entire job category of 'middle management'. Capital in the form of knowledge and reputation rather than fixed physical assets. Intentionally temporary organizational structures. Individual responsibility for what used to be called 'benefits'. I'm a networking consultant. My father had three jobs in his entire lifetime. I had three jobs this morning. If that's not structural change, I don't know what is. -- Checkered Daemon cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Delirium: There must be a word for it ... the thing that lets you know that TIME is happening. IS there a word? Sandman: CHANGE. Delirium: Oh. I was AFRAID of that. From cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Thu Aug 15 18:34:22 1996 From: cdaemon at goblin.punk.net (Checkered Daemon) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:34:22 +0800 Subject: Crypto Ban Talk @ G-7 In-Reply-To: <321333D4.2003@vail.tivoli.com> Message-ID: <199608152240.PAA23570@goblin.punk.net> Mike M Nally chimes in with: > Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > I have the text of the resolution passed by G-7 and Russia that > > moves towards greater controls on crypto at: > > I just have to wonder whether these people expect their measures to > really reduce terrorism, or if they simply expect to be able to > identify and imprison/kill all the terrorists so that terrorism can > be eliminated like smallpox. > > If the former, I'd say they're stupid, and if the latter, well, I'd > say they're stupid. None of this has anything to do with terrorism, or any of the other 'horsemen'. It has to do with the survival of national governments as we presently know them. These people are not completely stupid. Totally secure, world-wide data networks WILL spell the end of national governments. This cannot be allowed. The horsemen aspect is just there for popular consumption. -- Checkered Daemon cdaemon at goblin.punk.net Delirium: There must be a word for it ... the thing that lets you know that TIME is happening. IS there a word? Sandman: CHANGE. Delirium: Oh. I was AFRAID of that. From wb8foz at nrk.com Thu Aug 15 18:38:32 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:38:32 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608152235.SAA03915@nrk.com> erehwon at c2.org: > Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would > be older offshore oil platforms. I recall the Royal Navy raiding WWII era Anti-Aircraft platforms that were housing pirate BBC competitors.... This was in the 60's I think.... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From Scottauge at aol.com Thu Aug 15 19:16:14 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:16:14 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof Message-ID: <960815192512_457514748@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-08-15 17:35:20 EDT, you write: > This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could > get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one > from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed > that would be usable for these purposes) and say to the IRS: Money? > What money? Can you find any of my money? I, uhh... lost it! Yeah, > that's it!! But then how do you spend it? What if instructions are given to the banking system to not deal with such and such bank (or datahaven)? How are you going to get it out and spend them deniros? From jya at pipeline.com Thu Aug 15 19:16:18 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:16:18 +0800 Subject: RAD_ius Message-ID: <199608152343.XAA18395@pipe1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> 8-14-96. NW: "Proposed IETF standard to ease a variety of remote access concerns ." The scheme, called Remote Authentication Dial-In User Service (RADIUS), provides a centralized and secure method for authenticating remote dial-in users, authorizing appropriate enterprise resources and gathering accounting details. RADIUS also provides a way to integrate the security administration of dial-in users with that of the resident enterprise population. ----- http://jya.com/radius.txt (5 kb) RAD_ius From geoff at commtouch.co.il Thu Aug 15 19:42:35 1996 From: geoff at commtouch.co.il (geoff) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:42:35 +0800 Subject: (NOISE) Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <19960815232910268.AAB222@[194.90.26.189]> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 16 02:41:34 1996 Unicorn, > No, I was merely pointing out that if the review revealed that it > had problems (one assumed that the intent of peer review is to reveal > such problems in the first place, but perhaps you just like giving > software away?) then the offered reward was valueless. Peer review seems to have voted that their risk paid off. > A lot of people use DES on this list too I'll wager. and... > I "tried out" your promotional scheme when I read your message, and > it was that scheme which my opinion targeted. You misinterpreted my reply to a list member's enquiry about whether our offer of Pronto Secure in exchange for feedback was still available. > This is a subjective question. Yes. > Cypherpunks is always getting the cash poor developer who thinks he > very clever because he has to pay testers no money if he offers his > new product free to the person who discovers a flaw, or writes a > review. Unicorn, you are again letting your fingers move faster than your brain. On what do you base your evaluation of our liquidity ? (not that it is relevant). Most Cypherpunks are technically savvy and crypto aware people, they provide a perfect community for evaluating and debugging a security enabling product. I would strongly recommend this route to any developer of serious security enhancing software. My sincere thanks to all c'punks who have and continue to provide incredibly valuable input into Pronto Secure. > From your home page, I would guess that you request that reviewers > allow you to make their comments public. That's called an > endorsement, and, by the way, people are usually paid for them. > Sometimes in the millions. Think Michael Jordan is getting a deal > when you use his name to promote your product and then give him a > $99.00 piece of software (which is effectively worth the amount of > time it takes to write a few kiss ass paragraphs on the software, not > $99.00)? Unicorn, you are again making groundless assumptions. I suggest that you do some fence painting before you enlighten us with your opinions about our "kiss ass paragraphs" of code. Unless Michael Jordon is reading Schneier on the sly, his endorsement of Pronto secure is not worth 99c. > Alturisim is a pipe dream. Depends what you are putting in your pipe :) I venture that most c'punks would agree that moving strong e-mail security into mainstream is a good thing. This is not going to happen without people making money from it. >> Unicorn, you are invited to whitewash my fence :) > Do I have to review pronto secure first? Yes. Geoff. - --------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff Klein, Pronto Secure Product Manager; www.commtouch.com My PGP public Key 1814AD45 can be obtained by sending a message to geoff at commtouch.co.il with "Get PGP Key" as the subject. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMhO1s0Lv5OMYFK1FAQG5WAP/XoLteaVpdhnLpj/pk/1aPiWX7Nx/h1cc 5Sf0mgOWv3Q9MASWHV2lKrgqF9jc15ZaymfJZDq1duGttrPj6SJqX/nwOTcYi006 Hh3qh+LnXWnBd7QA/mZL5Fn4SLAOBno/uspqwMbM+6DCw39MpCY2NG0jQ2Qi8vMH n1IG+PYYTAs= =5HnW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vince at offshore.com.ai Thu Aug 15 19:45:09 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:45:09 +0800 Subject: Floating DataHaven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: William Knowles > > Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would > be older offshore oil platforms, > [...] > You have to wonder how cheap these could sell > for just to get them off the oil companies hands? A floating DataHaven is probably the way to get the ultimate in freedom. There is someone on Anguilla that bought a used floating oil platform for $1 million. It is big enough for 200 people to live on. It is not here, so I have not seen it. There is someone else here who says that there are some really old ones that you can get just for hauling them away. Some countries will not let owners just sink them. You can get Internet via radio links for reasonable prices. And via satellite for almost affordable prices. When Bill Gates 900 satellites get up there it should be very affordable. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 15 20:07:11 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:07:11 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: At 9:39 PM 8/15/96, Bart Croughs wrote: > > If the situation is so clear, why can't you give the proof I'm asking for? > Several people have given explanations of why your question is both too simplistic and too tied to subjective definitions of "good for the economy." You ignore these points and keep repeating your protectionist mantra. You seem to have a one-track mind, suggesting you are probaby a rabid Objectivist. OK, so I will give you an Objectivist proof: A is A. Not-A is not Not-Not-A. A is real, Not-A is not real. Reality is good, non-reality is not good. Man exists in reality. Therefore Man is good. Existence is not optional. Non-existence is nothingness. Nothingness is darkness. The opposite of darkness is light. Fire produces light, therefore fire is good. Fire is the embodiment of good. Smoking is the embodiment of fire. Therefore, smoking is good. Non-smoking is bad.... What was the question again? --Tim May (P.S. Since Bart seems to have only one thing on his mind, and since our list members seem unable to persuade him about anything, I suspect this list is not the list for Bart. May he find the list he seeks.) Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 15 20:12:33 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:12:33 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: <199608150454.AAA18471@mh004.infi.net> Message-ID: I repeat. Generations of sweating engineers have discovered and confirmed that there is not an easy, "Silver Bullet" cure of the canonical problem of shielding electromagnetic energy from reaching someone who knows how to interpret it. Bill, you are welcome to look at a layer of tin foil and give a sigh of relief that you've shielded your gun or your crypto diskette or your private body parts feom someone who knows what they're doing. Go ahead, chant a mantra too, if it makes you feel better. From molnard1 at nevada.edu Thu Aug 15 20:22:30 1996 From: molnard1 at nevada.edu (DAVID A MOLNAR) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:22:30 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof In-Reply-To: <96Aug15.132311edt.20486@janus.algorithmics.com> Message-ID: > This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could > get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one > from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed > that would be usable for these purposes) and say to the IRS: Money? > What money? Can you find any of my money? I, uhh... lost it! Yeah, > that's it!! What is to stop the IRS from pointing out that you received the money from your employer? Maybe you could convince them you were unable to pay, but that would require squirreling away(and refraining from using) all your assets. From asgaard at sos.sll.se Thu Aug 15 21:11:21 1996 From: asgaard at sos.sll.se (Asgaard) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 12:11:21 +0800 Subject: Commercial Bundling Message-ID: A few days ago Eallensmith forwarded an article, which has lots of references to economic scientific sources, by Andrew Odlyzko, AT&T: 'The bumpy road of electronic commerce'. I didn't know that there is a whole theory of why and when and how bundling of products work in commerce (but I should have guessed). Soon after this article, published August 9, arguing why bundling and subscriptions will take the lead over intelligent agent shopping and personalized micro-retrievement on the net, came the following announcement (quoting Edupage) from MS: >Microsoft has struck deals that will allow it to bundle the Wall Street >Journal's Interactive Addition and ESPN Sports Zone into its new version >3.0 of Internet Explorer browser software ... A networked computer with a bundled MS operating sytem, and a browser already pointing to streamlined information. What more do we need? This really fits in with Odluzko's predictions, and there is more to come. According to Odluzko, bundling is not an evil but actually does good for everyone, mostly (as does different prizes for different customers). And most of us seem to prefer flat rates to pay-per-access. He doesn't mention anything about the coming black market (of crypto-anarchistic flavor), but then it isn't the subject of his essay. Asgaard From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 15 21:14:51 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 12:14:51 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof Message-ID: At 11:25 PM 8/15/96, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 96-08-15 17:35:20 EDT, you write: > >> This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could >> get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one >> from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed >> that would be usable for these purposes) and say to the IRS: Money? >> What money? Can you find any of my money? I, uhh... lost it! Yeah, >> that's it!! > >But then how do you spend it? What if instructions are given to the banking >system to not deal with such and such bank (or datahaven)? How are you going >to get it out and spend them deniros? This is practically the least of the concerns. Assuming one could, say, be paid reliably and without True Name attached, in a country like Anguilla (to use a current example), it would be simple enough to fly to Anguilla for a vacation, pick up the money, and return to the U.S. I've never had my bags searched on an incoming flight, and even if one is fearful of this, there are multiple ways to get the cash back. This is not an ideal, pure crypto anarchist solution, but it certainly shows that getting the payments made to an offshore account is much more than half the battle. (I hear that some consultants to offshore companies are already doing something like this--they consult for some large fee, e.g., $200K, and then arrange to be paid out over a period of many years on a contingency basis. This reduces taxes, at least on this payment, considerably. And they can, while in Macao, or Singapore, etc., transfer money around the world to various locales they may visit in the future....) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 15 21:19:33 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 12:19:33 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Black Unicorn wrote: > you to make their comments public. That's called an endorsement, and, by > the way, people are usually paid for them. Sometimes in the millions. > Think Michael Jordan is getting a deal when you use his name to promote > your product and then give him a $99.00 piece of software (which is > effectively worth the amount of time it takes to write a few kiss ass > paragraphs on the software, not $99.00)? > The time it takes M. Jordon to write a couple of paragraphs would be worth at least $99. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From mike at fionn.lbl.gov Thu Aug 15 21:46:51 1996 From: mike at fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 12:46:51 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof Message-ID: <199608160210.TAA04062@fionn.lbl.gov> On Aug 15, 7:25pm, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > system to not deal with such and such bank (or datahaven)? How are you going > to get it out and spend them deniros? Make 'em an offer they can't refuse ?^) From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 15 22:02:18 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:02:18 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? Message-ID: At 5:55 PM 8/15/96, William Knowles wrote: >On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Arun Mehta wrote: > >> I'm sure this has come up before, but what would prevent a server >> being located on a buoy or something at sea outside territorial >> limits (or when satellites become cheaper, on a satellite itself) >> offering such services? > >Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would >be older offshore oil platforms, Their size would allow extended >living periods, electrcity and communications are in place, They >are generally built outside of the territorial waters of most >countries to avoid any damage to the shorelines if oil spilled >(possibility for becoming its own country?) and with the hoops >that Shell Oil went through to please Greenpeace with its last >oil platform. You have to wonder how cheap these could sell >for just to get them off the oil companies hands? > >Comments or suggestions? As with offshore buoys, how long do you think such an entity would last? You mentioned Greepeace...don't forget that the French intelligence apparatus sunks a Greenpeace ship in a New Zealand harbor. Don't forget the way the U.S. mined Managua's harbor. And so on. Think of how any of these schemes are vulnerable to a cheap torpedo, "anonymously mailed" from several miles away. Oil rigs, buoys, pirate ships....these are all examples of hopelessly insecure systems. I could say more, but what's the point? --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From sophi at best.com Thu Aug 15 22:04:00 1996 From: sophi at best.com (Greg Kucharo) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:04:00 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? Message-ID: <199608160202.TAA21122@dns2.noc.best.net> The only ideal I can think of would be the fictional "Port Watson". What is you had a system that spanned countries, using the internet as a linking device. It would be the same service. But when you specified the kind of data you wanted to post, the system would route it to the appropriate server in a country where it wasn't illegal. ---------- > From: Vincent Cate > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? > Date: Wednesday, August 14, 1996 5:40 AM > > > Tim: > > Rather, there is an "archetype," if you will, of what a "remailer" is, what > > a "data haven" is, what a "tax shelter" is, etc. While we cannot reasonably > > expect a remailer to exactly match the archetype, we can point out obvious > > deficiencies. > > 1) Anguilla has secrecy laws. Professional relationships are confidential. > There are strong secrecy laws. I have not given out taxbomber's > name, nor will I as I could face legal action if I did. > > 2) Anguilla has no sales or income taxes. A business does not need to > report anything about income, sales, etc, to the government (or anyone > else). If a guy wants to sell his data and keep 100% of the profits > instead of 50% or 60%, then Anguilla would be a haven for him. > > 3) We don't have the same laws as other countries, so there are things > that can be done here. For example, we can export encryption > software. Also, we will have bingo.com in Anguilla. > > There are deficiencies from a cypherpunk or Libertarian point of view. And > these are interesting. And exactly what I want to do is changing. As I > said, Anguilla is not the datahaven of cypherpunks wet dreams. I am sure > there are no datahavens that match the cypherpunk concept of an ideal > datahaven, yet. > > But I think the term DataHaven applies as well to Anguilla as any other > place I know of. > > Tim, we would all be very happy if you were to locate a country that could > be the site of the ideal datahaven, and finance a couple cypherpunks to > setup there. It would be a big help to our cause. Could you do this? > > In the mean time, people may have to exist in cyberspace (like > www.taxbomber.com) without having a totally secure physical location. > This is not the end of the world, or really even that painful. If done > right you could be down for only an hour - just long enough for > nameservers to change. Taxbomber is now setup to do it very fast next > time, if the need ever comes. Tim, I think you have even advocated this > approach, not stressing the physical location, just the cyberspace > location. No? > > -- Vince > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ > Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From vince at offshore.com.ai Thu Aug 15 22:05:46 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:05:46 +0800 Subject: Floating DataHaven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the September 1996 Yahoo! Internet Life, page 11, Spencer Reiss writes of Vince Cate: > But his true dream is to take his whole set-up really offshore. "It > would be interesting to have a nice big boat to travel around on," he > says. "You know, the prices for satellite transmitters are really coming > down. There's no real reason to be anywhere, anymore." -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 15 22:06:17 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:06:17 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: At 1:01 AM 8/16/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >I repeat. Generations of sweating engineers have discovered and confirmed >that there is not an easy, "Silver Bullet" cure of the canonical problem >of shielding electromagnetic energy from reaching someone who knows how >to interpret it. > >Bill, you are welcome to look at a layer of tin foil and give a sigh of >relief that you've shielded your gun or your crypto diskette or your >private body parts feom someone who knows what they're doing. Go ahead, >chant a mantra too, if it makes you feel better.+- I've stayed out of this "tin foil" debate, but some basic physics is being missed, or misused. The invocation of TEMPEST and leakage of RF does not say much of anything about _imaging_. If a gun, for example, were _radiating_ RF energy of some particular sort, then it might indeed be true that tin foil/gold lame shielding would not stop _all_ of the emitted radiation, and that sensitive enough detectors might detect the characteristic signal 60 or 90 dB down. Maybe. But a gun is not a radiator, it is at most a _reflector_ of RF energy. Thus, the TEMPEST invocation is misleading. The signal would perhaps be down by 100-130 dB or more, as the "leakage" must first get around the shielding, be reflected, and then get back around the shielding. And what this does to "imaging" almost needs no explanation. What leaks around the periphery or through holes in a shielded container will provide essentially zero spatial information about the configuration of sources and reflectors inside the shielded container. (I spent much of 1972-73 working inside a Faraday cage on ultra-low-noise superconducting Josephson junctions. Believe me, what signals leaked in, or leaked out (by symmetry analysis) could not have been used to deduce the configuration of sources and reflectors inside the room.) I should say I'm skeptical that millimeter detectors will be widely deployed anytime soon. For detecting concealed weapons, "metal detectors" in specific locations are both cheaper and have fewer constitutional and "false positive" problems. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From modemac at netcom.com Thu Aug 15 22:13:05 1996 From: modemac at netcom.com (Modemac) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:13:05 +0800 Subject: Scientology *really* tries to crack PGP...AGAIN?!? Message-ID: <199608160238.TAA28916@toad.com> Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.security.pgp From: grady at netcom.com (Grady Ward) Subject: Criminal cult begins PGP crack attempt Message-ID: The Special Master has informed me that Madame Kobrin has asked her to retain a PC expert to attempt to "crack" a series of pgp-encrypted multi-megabyte files that were seized along with more than a compressed gigabyte of other material from my safety deposit box. Ironically, they phoned to ask for assistance in supplying them with a prototype "crack" program that they could use in iterating and permuting possibilities. I did supply them a good core pgpcrack source that can search several tens of thousands of possible key phrases a seconds; I also suggested that they should at least be using a P6-200 workstation or better to make the search more efficient. The undercurrent is that this fresh hysterical attempt to "get" something on me coupled with the daily settlement pleas reflects the hopelessness of the litigation position of the criminal cult. It looks like the criminal cult has cast the die to ensure that the RTC vs Ward case is fought out to the bitter end. Which I modestly predict will be a devastating, humiliating defeat for them from a pauper pro per. I have given them a final settlement offer that they can leave or take. Actually they have a window of opportunity now to drop the suit since my counterclaims have been dismissed (although Jusge Whyte invited me to re-file a new counterclaim motion on more legally sufficiant basis). I think Keith and I have found a successful counter-strategy to the cult's system of litigation harassment. Meanwhile, I could use some help from veteran a.r.s'ers. I need any copy you have of the Cease and Desist letter that you may have received last year from Eliot Abelson quondam criminal cult attorney and Eugene Martin Ingram spokespiece. Physical mail: Grady Ward 3449 Martha Ct. Arcata, CA 95521-4884 JP's BMPs or fax-images to: grady at northcoast.com Thanks. Grady Ward Ps. I really do need all of your help and good wishes after all. Thanks for all of you keeping the net a safe place to insult kook kults. -- Reverend Modemac (modemac at netcom.com) First Online Church of "Bob" "There is no black and white." PGP Key Fingerprint: 47 90 41 70 B4 5B 06 90 7B 38 4E 11 8A ED 80 DF URL: http://www.tiac.net/users/modemac/ (FINGER modemac at netcom.com for a FREE SubGenius Pamphlet!) From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 15 22:13:06 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:13:06 +0800 Subject: Garage door openers Message-ID: At 9:34 PM 8/15/96, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: >That is known for cars. I double checked, and found some car alarms able >to do this. However, I have not found any house garage door openers able >to pull this off. Most still use the old blurt code method. > Sure, most garage door opener codes are easy to break....but how many thieves who do this know to enter the _second_ correct sequence within 45 seconds, the one that stops the poison gas from filling the garage? Steganographic entry codes have their uses. --Tim May (P.S. There were six (6) names copied on this post, besides CP. Can't we edit the cc: lines? I try to, so why don't you all?) Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From sophi at best.com Thu Aug 15 22:19:00 1996 From: sophi at best.com (Greg Kucharo) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:19:00 +0800 Subject: Anguilla...etc. Message-ID: <199608160154.SAA20349@dns2.noc.best.net> I guess the point I was trying to make all along is this; Is a data haven going to be a security through obscurity operation? This is what the Swiss have with secret bank accounts, etc. Or will it be an operation where the operator of the system lets whatever on, and hopes he won't get prosecuted. In Island in the Net, the haven were physical. The authorities got to them eventually. Vince's system is restricted by physical laws. There will always be a finite array of information he can present without putting the whole operation on the line. Is he still a data haven then? I believe so. But through creative diplomacy he could balance the powers that bind him. How well he or anyone else does this is the key to the range of information presented. ---------- > From: Timothy C. May > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Anguilla...etc. > Date: Tuesday, August 13, 1996 9:07 PM > > At 2:21 AM 8/14/96, Greg Kucharo wrote: > > While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the > >authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble > >purposes. Check that, obvious noble purposes. While most on this list > >would agree that free flow of information is noble we have all seen that > >this is otherwise with people in power. As I stated in my last post, the > >Swiss have maintained thier "haven" for many years by playing both sides. > >In accomodating everyone they avoid harassment. > > This way the Swiss maintain a good system and live to fight another day. > > Let me be clear that I am not talking about "noble motives." In the sense > of somone sacrificing himself for the good of the herd, blah blah. > > Rather, there is an "archetype," if you will, of what a "remailer" is, what > a "data haven" is, what a "tax shelter" is, etc. While we cannot reasonably > expect a remailer to exactly match the archetype, we can point out obvious > deficiencies. > > For "data havens," we have very few examples, compared to operational > remailers. We have the fictional form in Bruce Sterling's "Islands in the > Net," some of whose plot twists have some parallels to the current Anguilla > situation. Another is the form described in Ross Anderson's "Eternity > Service." > > What might we expect of a true data haven? I've tried to describe several > of the attributes in my earlier posts, mainly by asking questions about > specific examples (bomb-building instructions, "Kill the monarchy" screeds, > etc.). > > Interestingly, with several of these examples, Vince has said that he is > not interested in having this kind of material on his site. His invitation > for Multi-Level Marketers to avoid U.S. and other laws by locating on his > service has now been withdrawn, from his latest comments. (To the person > who sent me mail explaining that MLM schemes are not illegal in the U.S., > indeed, some are legal and some are not. I said as much. And for those > which are legal in the U.S. or France or wherever, they would hardly have > any need to use Vince's service, would they? I surmised from his invitation > that he was encouraging MLM/pyramid scheme operators to avoid their > parochial fraud laws and use the services in Anguilla.) > > I plan to do more looking at just who is left, who is using Offshore > Information and what kinds of services they are offering. Not to harass > Vince, of course, but to better look at the envelope of what is considered > OK and what is not. > > If i find that all the "juicy" stuff is gone and all that is left is > booking sailing cruises around the Carribbean, I'll hardly call it a "data > haven." Which is not to say it's not still a useful and profitable business > for Vince, just that it has no Cypherpunk relevance. > > --Tim May > > Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! > We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." > > > From enzo at ima.com Thu Aug 15 22:37:20 1996 From: enzo at ima.com (Enzo Michelangeli) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:37:20 +0800 Subject: Floating DataHaven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about pirate attacks, acts of war from hostile countries etc.? Actually, also being a sovereign state won't help much if you are small, and I'm not referring to obvious dope-smuggling fronts like Noriega's Panama: in the fifties, the 700-year old Republic of San Marino cancelled plans of opening a casino after Italy sealed its border (the only border San Marino has). Enzo On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Vincent Cate wrote: > > William Knowles > > > > Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would > > be older offshore oil platforms, > > [...] > > You have to wonder how cheap these could sell > > for just to get them off the oil companies hands? > > A floating DataHaven is probably the way to get the ultimate in > freedom. > > There is someone on Anguilla that bought a used floating oil platform for > $1 million. It is big enough for 200 people to live on. It is not here, > so I have not seen it. > > There is someone else here who says that there are some really old ones > that you can get just for hauling them away. Some countries will not let > owners just sink them. > > You can get Internet via radio links for reasonable prices. And via > satellite for almost affordable prices. When Bill Gates 900 satellites > get up there it should be very affordable. > > -- Vince > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ > Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ > From dfloyd at io.com Thu Aug 15 22:49:53 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:49:53 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608160257.VAA20466@bermuda.io.com> > > On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Arun Mehta wrote: > > > I'm sure this has come up before, but what would prevent a server > > being located on a buoy or something at sea outside territorial > > limits (or when satellites become cheaper, on a satellite itself) > > offering such services? > > Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would > be older offshore oil platforms, Their size would allow extended > living periods, electrcity and communications are in place, They > are generally built outside of the territorial waters of most > countries to avoid any damage to the shorelines if oil spilled > (possibility for becoming its own country?) and with the hoops > that Shell Oil went through to please Greenpeace with its last > oil platform. You have to wonder how cheap these could sell > for just to get them off the oil companies hands? > > Comments or suggestions? > > William Knowles > erehwon at c2.org (The machine crashed when I was writing this letter, so if cpunks got two, I apologize.) How would this rig be defended? Pirates still exist. Even if you can give them something to think about with a 30/06 bullet at their waterline, there are always small countries who have navies that can be hired. They may be small and defenseless compared to the US navy, but against a basically unarmed oil rig, do have the ability to sink the rig at their whim. Its ironic that I am playing Devil's Advocate with data havens, but have the only working input/output code for one that I know of. (I have been having problems with it, so until I work some bugs out I haven't put it for offer via FTP.) I think for now try to make something that uses the same technology as a data haven -- An offsite secure storage server. Discussed in this list about a year ago, this uses data haven code, and is equivalent to a sufferance remailer, but at least these can exist. The first step is having them exist overtly first, and having "terms of service", then working on DC-nets, "RAID" DH's, etc. I have a tokenlike system -- "Storage Noodles", but haven't gotten it working reliably yet. From cts at deltanet.com Thu Aug 15 23:21:27 1996 From: cts at deltanet.com (Kevin Stephenson) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:21:27 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3213F1FB.74FB@deltanet.com> Alan Horowitz wrote: > > I repeat. Generations of sweating engineers have discovered and confirmed > that there is not an easy, "Silver Bullet" cure of the canonical problem > of shielding electromagnetic energy from reaching someone who knows how > to interpret it. > > Bill, you are welcome to look at a layer of tin foil and give a sigh of > relief that you've shielded your gun or your crypto diskette or your > private body parts feom someone who knows what they're doing. Go ahead, > chant a mantra too, if it makes you feel better. Shielding EMF/ELF is very difficult. I had a customer who had a wobbly monitor and the solutions just to shield the monitor from some ELF interference was in the $1k range. Check out this site: http://www.noradcorp.com/faq1.htm A little primer on ELF radiation. And putting foil in the wall will do nothing except possibly spreading the radiation to a wider area. (Like using frosted glass. :) From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 15 23:26:39 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:26:39 +0800 Subject: BlackNet as a Distributed, Untraceable, Robust Data Haven Message-ID: At 2:05 AM 8/16/96, Greg Kucharo wrote: >The only ideal I can think of would be the fictional "Port Watson". What >is you had a system that spanned countries, using the internet as a linking >device. It would be the same service. But when you specified the kind of >data you wanted to post, the system would route it to the appropriate >server in a country where it wasn't illegal. > I have to speak up here and say that there is an actual working exemplar of a distributed, untraceable data haven. While it lacks a robust _payment_ mechanism, that is also untraceable, so does the "Visit Port Watson" example (which has never actually existed). The simple structure I built in 1993 for "BlackNet" actually works. It has been discussed in many places, and will be the subject of a couple of sections in Peter Ludlow's new book, "High Noon on the Electronic Frontier" (http://www-mitpress.mit.edu/mitp/recent-books/comp/ludph.html). Features of relevance to any discussion of data havens: * messages are posted to message pools, including any of the 18,000+ Usenet groups copied automatically in sites around the world. * the initial messages are in plaintext, of course, as how else could readers determine which are of interest to them? "Anyone have details of the medical condition of Chirac?" might be an example. * a public key is posted along with the plaintext, thus allowing a reader to respond _privately_ by encrypting his message to the public key and posting it (through a chain of remailers and eventually to a mail-to-News gateway, for example). * this establishes two-way communication, in a "black pipe" that is visible to all, but opaque to all but the parties. * if some jurisdictions attempts to cut off a particular newsgroup, e.g., "alt.anonymous.messages," then the traffic can be shifted to other newsgroups, e.g., "talk.politics.singapore." * posting can be as untraceable as a chain of remailers linked to a mail-to-News gateway can be. * thus, two agents can establish a communications channel between themselves without knowing the identity or location or jurisdiction of each other. (There are some subtle issues of man-in-the-middle attacks, as with these sorts of protocols for establishing communication between parties who have not met; webs of trust, again. For the several cases of communications using BlackNet I was personally involved with, mostly in '93, this did not ever become a problem any of us were aware of.) * as I mentioned, BlackNet lacks a robust, untraceable payment system. Alice and Bob may be able to connect up with each other, by exchanging reciprocally encrypted messages in a public place, but transferring money is problematic. (I don't know just how well the Mark Twain/Digicash stuff really works at this time....someone motivated to actually transfer money would be a better judge, along with the several cryptographers on this list who've looked at it more recently and in more depth than I have.) The important thing to note is that BlackNet, and similar systems, do not depend on any particular jurisdiction or site to host the communications. The anarchic, distributed Usenet is used. (And there is no reason why mailing lists, a la Miron Cuperman's message pool list of a few years back, or the Web itself could not be used. Using a Web site does potentially open the owner of the URL site to charges of conspiracy, though the fact that the messages are encrypted (after the early plaintext.) There are certainly things yet to be done, but it's important that the example of BlackNet be mentioned. Solve the payment problem (for real, not the semi-GAKked version of Digicash that Chaum now appears to be promoting) and there's no need for "physical" data havens in Anguilla, Burma, St. Barts, Lichtenstein, or wherever. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 15 23:27:52 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:27:52 +0800 Subject: Jurisdictionless Distributed Data Havens Message-ID: <199608160415.VAA00103@toad.com> At 09:52 AM 8/15/96 -0500, "Douglas R. Floyd" wrote: >As of now, I am looking for someone who can help me implement a redundant >controller system, so when the DH is contacted, even if the first one if >smashed, the "RAID" stays operable. One approach is "Just Don't Do It" - let the user (or user interface program) handle the RAID work. You can get fancy and use Shamir Secret Sharing, or non-fancy and use N+1 sparing RAID, or medium fancy and use {,,}, depending on how private and how reliable you want to be. Having just the even bits of decently-encrypted cyphertext makes cracking tough.... Some issues to think about - - Access patterns - who do you want to be able to retrieve the data? --- only the owner? --- people who the owner shares a secret with? --- Everybody? --- Everybody who knows where the pieces are? --- One retrieval? Many retrievals? - How do you want the data delivered? Anon remailer? HTTP? POP3? - Threats - who don't you want to be able to read the data? --- who don't you want to be able to delete the data? --- who don't you want to find out who retrieved the data? - Payment - who pays? Writers? Readers? Cops with warrants? Account holders or one-shot users? Digicash only? How much? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From sophi at best.com Thu Aug 15 23:53:12 1996 From: sophi at best.com (Greg Kucharo) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:53:12 +0800 Subject: Physical Havens Message-ID: <199608160453.VAA07570@dns2.noc.best.net> Let's take a look at the successful havens of history. 1. Hashishim( Old man of the mountains)-The Aga Khan survived thousands of years of harassment by the surrounding powers by placing a few well choosen daggers. 2. The monastic system- These whole setup was an excellent model. The monks were burrowed away in those places for centuries. The church built them like fortresses to withstand the heathens, both mentally and physically. The original "data warehouse". 3. The pirate havens- Places like the carribbean(originally), then Madagasgar(last). Pirate havens did business for everyone. 4. The silk routes- The trading centers of the old silk road sprang up overnight then vanished. Original anonymous trade. All of these physical havens eventually fell to the persistance of the major powers of the day. Or were co-opted by others who absorbed the critical black market features of these systems. ??????????????????????????????????????? Greg Kucharo sophi at best.com "Eppur si moeve" -Galileo ??????????????????????????????????????? From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 16 00:12:25 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:12:25 +0800 Subject: remailers/kiddie porn Message-ID: <199608160454.VAA00547@toad.com> >"The Internet is like heaven for the pedophile," said Toby Tyler, >a United States police officer who lectures at the FBI Academy on child abuse. ... >However computer experts agree the existence of just one re-mailing system in a country with more lax laws is enough for the global distribution of child >pornography on the Internet. >Tyler said the most widely used re-mailing system currently operates from Finland, through which about 99 percent of all child pornography with untraceable >address codes passes. Classic governmental statistics abuse. Given that probably far over 99% of all untraceable remailer return addresses are on Penet, it's no surprise that 99% of all material with untraceable destination addresses goes through there... The largest userid number I've seen on Penet was about 500,000, and I doubt there are 5000 addresses on nymservers or reply-block users. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From dfloyd at io.com Fri Aug 16 00:12:55 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:12:55 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608160445.XAA07083@pentagon.io.com> > > > > This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could > > get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one > > from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed > > that would be usable for these purposes) and say to the IRS: Money? > > What money? Can you find any of my money? I, uhh... lost it! Yeah, > > that's it!! > What is to stop the IRS from pointing out that you received the > money from your employer? Maybe you could convince them you were unable > to pay, but that would require squirreling away(and refraining from > using) all your assets. > > FYI: Cheating on an IRS tax return is considered the same as not filing one -- there is NO statute of limitations. This means if you place your money in a money/data haven, and spend it 20 years later, you can still be nabbed for tax evasion. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 16 00:57:27 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:57:27 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches [NOISE] Message-ID: <199608160545.WAA01166@toad.com> At 09:01 PM 8/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >I repeat. Generations of sweating engineers have discovered and confirmed >that there is not an easy, "Silver Bullet" cure of the canonical problem >of shielding electromagnetic energy from reaching someone who knows how >to interpret it. I also repeat - the problem isn't TEMPEST, which I agree is a tough problem. The problem is preventing radar imaging from detecting the shape of metal stuff you're carrying, and shielding with a sufficiently thick layer of metal should do that. I don't know, for the technology they're using, if this means tinfoil-thickness or armor-plate thickness, but random-thickness metal should help. Of course, walking through the airport wearing plate armor will probably disturb the security guards more than mere chain-mail :-) >Bill, you are welcome to look at a layer of tin foil and give a sigh of >relief that you've shielded your gun or your crypto diskette or your >private body parts feom someone who knows what they're doing. Go ahead, >chant a mantra too, if it makes you feel better. I've always enjoyed the one that goes You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, one will be provided for you. License and registration, please. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. It's not a threat, it's just a choice you can make. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Defuse Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 16 01:06:12 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 16:06:12 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof Message-ID: <199608160545.WAA01171@toad.com> At 05:31 PM 8/15/96 -0700, DAVID A MOLNAR wrote: > What is to stop the IRS from pointing out that you received the >money from your employer? What employer? What money? Some Anguillan consulting bodyshop sent some guys who did the work, and MegaCo paid the bodyshop. The shop paid the guys some typical low wages, and also bought computer services from another Anguillan company, which deposited its profits in its bank account in Jersey. Employee Jean D'Eau used the company Visa card for the account and took some business trips to San Diego, stayed in a hotel in Seattle, rented cars, ate out, bought computer toys at 47th St. Computer, paid for his Netcom account, and got a Visa Cash advance in Jamaica. No problem, mon. From gbroiles at netbox.com Fri Aug 16 01:24:32 1996 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 16:24:32 +0800 Subject: implausible defenses & tax havens Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960816060630.006dc138@mail.io.com> At 01:15 PM 8/15/96 -0400, Robin Powell wrote: >This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could >get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one >from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed >that would be usable for these purposes) and say to the IRS: Money? >What money? Can you find any of my money? I, uhh... lost it! Yeah, >that's it!! This scenario is more or less the same as being paid in paper cash and then hiding the paper cash. That's not an especially sophisticated tax evasion tactic. If you were on a jury, and you heard a defendant testify that they worked at a job site (either as an employee or a contractor) for years without ever being paid, and that they managed to maintain a lifestyle consistent with full-time work without ever receiving taxable income (whether as wages or dividends or interest or ..), and that the HR/personnel/AP people who testified that the defendant had been paid were mistaken or lying .. would you believe that testimony? Winning in court takes a lot more than making up a conceivable but incredibly implausible chain of events to explain away incriminating circumstances. (* OJ and other cases of nullification notwithstanding. But precious few people have the $ to pay for the kind of defense work needed to get that sort of result.) The notion of "burden of proof" is important, and defense lawyers can jawbone about it for hours - but the bottom line is that the "I don't know anything about getting any money" defense is bullshit. If the jurors can't imagine themselves or their kids or their friends doing what you're claiming you did (working without being paid and with no expectation of being paid), you lose. -- Greg Broiles |"Post-rotational nystagmus was the subject of gbroiles at netbox.com |an in-court demonstration by the People http://www.io.com/~gbroiles |wherein Sgt Page was spun around by Sgt |Studdard." People v. Quinn 580 NYS2d 818,825. From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Fri Aug 16 01:50:29 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 16:50:29 +0800 Subject: The dangers of using radar Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960816055206.002f2ef0@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> I picked this up on Marsha Woodbury's jokes list (not all are fiction!): >>Two members of the British Lothian and Borders traffic police were out on >>the Berwickshire moors with a radar gun recently, happily engaged in >>apprehending speeding motorists, when their equipment suddenly >>locked-up completely with an unexpected reading of well over 300 mph. >> >>The mystery was explained seconds later as a low flying Harrier hurtled >>over their heads. The boys in blue, upset at the damage to their radar >>gun, put in a complaint to the RAF, but were somewhat chastened when the RAF >>pointed out that the damage might well have been more severe. >> >>It seems that the Harrier's target-seeker had locked onto the 'enemy' >>radar and triggered an automatic retaliatory air-to-surface missile attack. >>Luckily, the Harrier was operating unarmed. >> >>Otherwise... "Gee Officer, sorry about your patrol car........" Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From grafolog at netcom.com Fri Aug 16 02:33:58 1996 From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:33:58 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, William Knowles wrote: > Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would > be older offshore oil platforms, Their size would allow extended These used to be the recommended way to go. If you have the cash, the cheapest way to go, is to just buy an island somewhere, and setup shop. << Can I suggest buying Redonda? >> > (possibility for becoming its own country?) and with the hoops CF: _How to create your own country_ distributed by Loompanics Press, for some of the problems that are encountered in trying to do this. > oil platform. You have to wonder how cheap these could sell > for just to get them off the oil companies hands? Starting bids are roughly $10^6 each. xan jonathon grafolog at netcom.com VapourWare is like the Tao, Looked for it cannot be found, Reached for it cannot be touched, Waited for not even FedX can deliver; From mccoy at communities.com Fri Aug 16 02:44:30 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:44:30 +0800 Subject: BlackNet as a Distributed, Untraceable, Robust Data Haven Message-ID: Tim May writes: > > I have to speak up here and say that there is an actual working exemplar of > a distributed, untraceable data haven. While it lacks a robust _payment_ > mechanism, that is also untraceable, so does the "Visit Port Watson" > example (which has never actually existed) BlackNet also lacks any sense of persistence. A message posted lives at the whim of newsgroup expiration policies and getting a copy of an expired message is a non-trivial task. It is also not an overt data haven, there is really no address or pointer you can direct someone to and say "look here." Usenet as a data haven is like dropping messages in to bottles and casting them in to the sea; getting it where you want and having the intended recipient be able to find the data easily is still an unsolved problem. It is a bulletin board for establishing private two-party communications on any topic, but it is not even close to being a mechanism for "publishing" in the manner to which people have becomed accostomed to on the net. jim From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 16 04:06:53 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 19:06:53 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto Message-ID: <199608160821.BAA02713@toad.com> >>>Subject: Clinton Is Trying to be Big Brother -- Phyllis Schlafly Column 8/8/96 >>It makes me ill to agree with Schlafly on any issue, but >>'Even a stopped clock....... >>Unrepentant Liberial > >It does seem really odd, doesn't it? But look at it this way: The only >reason the knuckle-dragging conservatives are able to take the moral >high-ground on this and other net-freedom issues is because the OTHER >"unrependant liberals" have inexplicably abandoned the correct side of the >argument. The fact that the conservatives are right may seem odd, but the >behavior of the liberals is truly astonishing. Liberals? What Liberals? Clinton's certainly no liberal; he's just a big-spending statist who likes to buy votes from poor, middle-class, and yuppie voters rather than buying them from defense contractors, not that he's above that. The only thing about him that's more liberal than George Bush, whose Clipper chips and miscellaneous wars Clinton inherited, is that Clinton smiles when he's lying instead of sneering like Bush. (If Clinton had said things like "Of course I tried to avoid the draft and smoked dope, I'm no fool" and had dropped the draft and the Drug War instead of supporting both after he was President, I might have a better opinion of him....) However, if Phyllis Schlafly understands that the tools she needs to protect her speech are the same that people she disapproves of can use to protect their speech, and is willing to make that trade, she's starting to inhale, and good for her! # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 16 04:11:41 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 19:11:41 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Geek Apartments and Etherpunks Message-ID: <199608160833.BAA02793@toad.com> At 04:55 AM 8/14/96 -0400, Rabid Wombat wrote: >Most manufacturers offer SNMP-manageable hubs, but these don't offer >MAC-layer security. That usually costs a lot extra. The MAC-layer feature >is not widely used. AT&T was about the first vendor with that feature. Aside from solving a _lot_ of potential security problems, it was very convenient for finding out what device really _was_ connected to what hub port - the hub recorded the most recent MAC address received on each port, and you could compare that to ARP tables and untangle lots of problems. Not as fancy as a Sniffer, but let you do things that a Sniffer on ThinWire couldn't. (Of course, since it wasn't NSA-rated, the fact that it actually did solve security problems didn't give us extra slack on government jobs that needed it. ) A multi-port bridge gives you similar security capability, but generally costs more because it needs buffering and much more intelligence; the AT&T SmartHub was a lot simpler and (in its day) cheaper. It was about twice the cost of a regular hub, half the excess from cool features and half because it was from AT&T :-) It was less reliable than the regular hub, because it needed a fan to handle the extra heat from the processor board, and was also more awkward to mount. And the SNMP implementation was rather buggy, though it did have a convenient PC SNMP manager that knew how to use SNMP-over-MAC and the special features of the hub. Cool device. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Fri Aug 16 05:42:51 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 20:42:51 +0800 Subject: Offshore data havens Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960816093326.003053a0@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 17:30 15/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >As with offshore buoys, how long do you think such an entity would last? > >You mentioned Greepeace...don't forget that the French intelligence >apparatus sunks a Greenpeace ship in a New Zealand harbor. Don't forget the >way the U.S. mined Managua's harbor. And so on. >Think of how any of these schemes are vulnerable to a cheap torpedo, >"anonymously mailed" from several miles away. There is another aspect to this: the French sinking of the Greenpeace ship in New Zealand was arguably the best thing that ever happened to the organisation. They certainly got lots of publicity, new members, money... On the Internet, news spreads fast, so the cost of such an attack in terms of damage to reputation would be high. Of course, if the torpedo were truly anonymous, we wouldn't know who to blame. All criminals attempt to commit crimes "anonymously", yet many do get caught. >Oil rigs, buoys, pirate ships....these are all examples of hopelessly >insecure systems. I could say more, but what's the point? OK, suppose someone were to bury the server deep in a valley or shaft under the water, with only an antenna sticking out (and a supply of spare antennae that could be automatically deployed if one got knocked out)? And, with Moore's law in operation, one might even be able to deploy large numbers of such servers that mirrored each other at reasonable cost. Once connectivity is via LEO satellites, unless those beasts are equipped for the purpose, I suspect locating the source of transmission will not be all that easy. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From gary at systemics.com Fri Aug 16 05:47:45 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 20:47:45 +0800 Subject: Billy boy's satellites [Was - Floating DataHaven] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <321446BF.20431CA7@systemics.com> Vincent Cate wrote: > You can get Internet via radio links for reasonable prices. And via > satellite for almost affordable prices. When Bill Gates 900 satellites > get up there it should be very affordable. ... if a tad unrealiable? The thought of 900 satelites in low orbit, all running NT, makes me shudder. Brings a new meaning to the expression "OS crash". What are cypherpunks thoughts on this? Who really believes it'll work? Doesn't the low orbit part mean that the satellites will have a low life expectancy, meaning a new launch every couple of days? (where's Gerald Bull when you need him - oh yes, now I remember ...) Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Aug 16 05:52:13 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 20:52:13 +0800 Subject: implausible defenses & tax havens In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960816060630.006dc138@mail.io.com> Message-ID: <199608160913.EAA18988@manifold.algebra.com> Greg Broiles wrote: > If you were on a jury, and you heard a defendant testify that they worked at > a job site (either as an employee or a contractor) for years without ever > being paid, and that they managed to maintain a lifestyle consistent with > full-time work without ever receiving taxable income (whether as wages or > dividends or interest or ..), and that the HR/personnel/AP people who > testified that the defendant had been paid were mistaken or lying .. would > you believe that testimony? Suppose that a computer consultant Mr. X knows cryptography so well that his clients are willing to pay him $100/hr. Mr. X could conspire with his client that he receives only $40/hr in taxable income, and the rest he gets in form of digital cash. If X lives sufficiently modestly, the IRS will be having hard times getting him convicted. And really, what's the point in spending all this money anyway? The more money one spends after a certain level, the more time one wastes. - Igor. From erehwon at c2.org Fri Aug 16 06:17:34 1996 From: erehwon at c2.org (William Knowles) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:17:34 +0800 Subject: Protecting floating datahavens? In-Reply-To: <199608160257.VAA20466@bermuda.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, William Knowles wrote: > > > > Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven > > would be older offshore oil platforms, Their size would > > allow extended living periods, electrcity and communications > > are in place, They are generally built outside of the > > territorial waters of most countries to avoid any damage > > to the shorelines if oil spilled (possibility for becoming > > its own country?) > > How would this rig be defended? > > Pirates still exist. Even if you can give them something to > think about with a 30/06 bullet at their waterline, there are > always small countries who have navies that can be hired. > They may be small and defenseless compared to the US navy, > but against a basically unarmed oil rig, do have the ability > to sink the rig at their whim. Now I don't claim to be a naval defence expert, But from what I do read of the dogeared copies of Jane's Defence Weekly, Would be to install three or four Phalanx Close-In Weapons Systems, The Phalanx is a radar guided 20mm Gatling gun spraying out 4500 rpm at a range of 1600 yards. Quite perfect for downing a privately owned MiG-21, Exocet missles from pissed off French gunboats for storing Chirac's medical records and maybe keeping those pesky mercenaries from skydiving onboard. Since the fall of the Iron Curtain, there are literally all sorts of firepower for sale in the open markets, trolling in the alt.business newsgroups I have been able to find quite a few MiG's for sale, and there's a fellow in Finland that has a former Soviet 'Julliet Class' Diesel-Electric submarine and I understand he's taking offers. Now this is a completely doable concept, and likely more realistic than the Oceania project, Unfortunatly like all things, it comes down to how much money you want to throw at it, I remember how many us on this list balked at Vince charging $500.00 for one year on a Unix Shell account, I wonder what the market would bear for both a technologically and physically secure datahaven? William Knowles erehwon at c2.org -- William Knowles PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key -- Vote for Harry Browne in November -- http://www.HarryBrowne96.org From erehwon at c2.org Fri Aug 16 06:31:30 1996 From: erehwon at c2.org (William Knowles) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:31:30 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, jonathon wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, William Knowles wrote: > > > Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would > > be older offshore oil platforms, Their size would allow extended > > These used to be the recommended way to go. > > If you have the cash, the cheapest way to go, is to just > buy an island somewhere, and setup shop. << Can I > suggest buying Redonda? >> Where is Redonda on the map, I'm too lazy to look it up, The group working on the Oceania Project tried to find an accommodating country that would allow them to run as a soverign nation, Last I heard they were planning to purchase a former hospital ship and refurbish it. > > (possibility for becoming its own country?) and with the hoops > > CF: _How to create your own country_ distributed > by Loompanics Press, for some of the problems that > are encountered in trying to do this. About now I am feeling like Woody Allen in 'Bananas' I'll find Tim May becoming 'El Presidente' alerting everybody on the island that their underwear will be worn on the outside, A yearly gift of his weight in discarded AOL disks, and that everyone must own a hot-tub just like his :) Cheers! William Knowles erehwon at c2.org -- William Knowles PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key -- Vote for Harry Browne in November -- http://www.HarryBrowne96.org From jk at stallion.ee Fri Aug 16 06:55:42 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:55:42 +0800 Subject: [SIGNAL] Microsoft's Internet Explorer Message-ID: Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Lucky Green asked: > I don't see the 128 bit version. URL? It is now available from www.microsoft.com/ie/download/ Choose the 128-bit IE 3.0 for Windows 95 & NT 4.0 In reply I got: Your Domain Name is not registered in the US or Canada Someone please upload the 128-bit version to somewhere in Europe =) J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From jcr at idiom.com Fri Aug 16 08:21:14 1996 From: jcr at idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:21:14 +0800 Subject: Lunch with Bill, anyone? Message-ID: <199608161231.FAA05532@idiom.com> Latest from Microsoft(R): > > The Windows 95 Anniversary is just around the corner. > > Stay tuned to WinNews for special announcements to learn how > > you could win lunch with Bill Gates, chat with industry > > luminaries, and download a really cool screen saver. Does Microsquish *know* any industry luminaries? I mean, Cutler used to be one, but he's pretty burnt out, if Windoze NT is any indication. > Seems a fine opportunity. Though Bill _and_ the screen saver might > be just too much excitement for one day. Meeting Bill Gates would be every bit as exciting as meeting Tony Orlando. Or maybe Wayne Newton. -jcr From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 16 08:25:16 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:25:16 +0800 Subject: ECC_pow Message-ID: <199608161227.MAA15645@pipe6.t1.usa.pipeline.com> 8-15-96. BW: "Certicom's High Efficiency Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem to be applied to Motorola's Wireless products." Dr. Scott Vanstone, Certicom's Chief Cryptographer, added, "Certicom is currently completing an ECC software toolkit." The Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem is the world's most efficient public-key system, providing the highest strength-per-bit of any known public-key system and minimizing the requirement for large key lengths. "UK Company Unveils E-Mail Encryption Software." Pow! Distribution has taken the wraps off PrivaSuite, an e-mail encryption package that works as a drop-in to many existing e-mail applications software. It can handle almost any file format, encrypting the file using the DES algorithm, it can also be set up to handle fax image files. The package was developed by Aliroo, an Israeli software house that specializes in document security products. Aliroo was founded in 1995 by ex-Israeli Military Intelligence officer Itzhak Pomerantz. ----- http://jya.com/eccpow.txt (9 kb for 2) ECC_pow From rah at shipwright.com Fri Aug 16 09:00:28 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 00:00:28 +0800 Subject: NPR Science Friday for 8/16 Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: oldbear at pop.tiac.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:54:37 -0300 To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu (Digital Commerce Society of Boston) From: The Arctos Group Subject: NPR Science Friday for 8/16 This afternoon's program on "Science Friday" on National Public Radio, broadcast from Washington, DC at 1800hrs GMT (2PM EDT) is on the future of the internet. I was unable to get a list of guests, but past programs would suggest that there likely will be some interesting individuals. Host Ira Flatow is much more techno-savvy than the usual broadcast personality. Here is the description from the npr.org web site: Show Date: 8/16/96 Topic for Hour One: Internet Update Synopsis: A War is waging over the future of the Internet. Who will control it, and what will it look and sound like as it reaches maturity? In this hour of Science Friday, find out who the players are, and what you can expect to see, or not see, on your computer screen in the years to come. Sorry for the short notice. I just heard the teaser this morning. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From rednax at asiapac.net Fri Aug 16 09:28:36 1996 From: rednax at asiapac.net (rednax) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 00:28:36 +0800 Subject: email bombing Message-ID: <199608161308.VAA05387@gandalf.asiapac.net> With reference to se7en's incident, is it because of implications like that that Up Yours doesn't work? r 3 |) |\| @ >< "huh??" ---------------- r 3 |) |\| @ >< ---------------- "everyone's expendable, anything too" From rednax at asiapac.net Fri Aug 16 09:48:05 1996 From: rednax at asiapac.net (rednax) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 00:48:05 +0800 Subject: NT remailer Message-ID: <199608161308.VAA05385@gandalf.asiapac.net> Speaking of NT, I downloaded the full version of msie 3.0 the other day but when I tried installing it, an error message came up saying that it requires a Win95 or WinNT4.0 build of 1381 or higher. I am currently running NT 4.0b that has a build of 1314, does anyone know of where is the upgrade or service packs(if available)? I have tried looking around microsoft.com, but they neither provided any detail nor did they provide an e-mail. Thanks. r 3 |) |\| @ >< "it's aliiiiIIIVVEeee!!!" ---------------- r 3 |) |\| @ >< ---------------- "everyone's expendable, anything too" From declan at eff.org Fri Aug 16 10:25:24 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 01:25:24 +0800 Subject: Schlafly helped defeat ERA, supported Goldwater--where do I , sign up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Keep in mind the BCFE comes from a traditional liberal bent. However, even though Schlafly is no friend of free speech as it relates to sexually explicit material, I welcome her participation in the wiretap debate. Privacy cuts across partisan lines. I would love to have her column in the hands of some of the Republican senators who will vote on the House wiretap bill or craft their own next month. -Declan On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 1:53 PM 8/15/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Take a look at the Boston Coalition for Freedom of Expression's list of > >enemies of free expression. Excerpt follows. > > > >Linkname: Phyllis Schlafly, Eagle Forum > >Filename: http://www.eff.org/pub/Groups/BCFE/bcfenatl.html#Schlafly > > > > Phyllis Schlafly > .... > > "Leading the pro-family movement to victories since 1972." Basic > > membership includes a subscription to The Phyllis Schlafly Report and > > costs $15.00. Mrs. Schlafly, whose husband Fred used to head the World > > Anti-Communist League, is the person considered most responsible for > > the defeat of the ERA. Her book A Choice Not an Echo, published in > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > 1964 to support the presidential aspirations of Barry Goldwater, is > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > one of the seminal texts of contemporary American conservative > > politics. > > So, she helped defeat the ERA and supported Goldwater. Sounds pretty good > to me. From this excerpt, I'd call her a friend of liberty. > > (Yes, I'm serious. Some of you find it hard to tell when I'm being > completely serious and when I'm being facetious, so I thought I'd clarify > this.) > > --Tim May > > Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! > We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." > > > > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From gkuzmo at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 16 10:26:49 1996 From: gkuzmo at ix.netcom.com (George Kuzmowycz) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 01:26:49 +0800 Subject: photographed license plates Message-ID: <199608161428.HAA16044@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> On 14 Aug 96 at 22:12, The Prisoner wrote: > Timothy C. May wrote: > > > > [WHACK] > > > Maybe we'll have barcoded license plates sooner than we think. Then all of > > those speed cameras can also track our movements. > > > > No, too low-tech. > > Small trasnsmitters with unique programmed ID codes broadcast as you drive. Much easier to trace. And LoJack's > already got a good bit of the technology in place. > Actually, a system like this is in place for toll collection in and around New York City, and on the New York State Thruway (a toll road that runs from NYC to Buffalo). It's called EZ-Pass, and involves some sort of programmed radio device that's scanned by the toll booth as you pass through. It can even automatically debit your VISA account. I am not aware of what representations, if any, they've made about the privacy of the data. An interesting economic point is that for the NYC bridges and tunnels, at least, EZ-Pass is now the only way to get discounted fares. The toll is $3.50 per bridge crossing. It used to be that they sold tokens, and if you bought a roll of tokens you'd get a discounted rate. Now they no longer sell the tokens in bulk, but the same discount is applied if you use the EZ-Pass system. The anonymous transaction is now the more costly one. -gk- From bugs at netcom.com Fri Aug 16 10:40:51 1996 From: bugs at netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 01:40:51 +0800 Subject: Billy boy's satellites [Was - Floating DataHavens] Message-ID: <199608161424.HAA03018@netcom17.netcom.com> > > > Vincent Cate wrote: > > You can get Internet via radio links for reasonable prices. And via > > satellite for almost affordable prices. When Bill Gates 900 satellites > > get up there it should be very affordable. > > Gary Howland wrote: > ... if a tad unrealiable? > The thought of 900 satelites in low orbit, all running NT, makes me > shudder. Brings a new meaning to the expression "OS crash". > Its been a little over a year but I had heard that the current design was for a lower number of MEO satellites. I would think that cypherpunks would want to see this happen. The political problems are probably larger than the technical ones :-) Regards, Mark Hittinger Netcom/Dallas bugs at netcom.com From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Aug 16 11:44:00 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 02:44:00 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - legal action or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Vincent Cate wrote: > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > > > > "Greg Kucharo" writes: > > > While Tim may be right that nobility is lost when backing down to the > > > authorities, the fact is that this game has little to do with noble > > > purposes. ... [...] > However, my work permit is up for renewal. They would not ever have to > take legal action to shut me down, just decide not to renew my work > permit, and I would have to leave the island. [...] > My lawyer says it is illegal to sell fake passports in Anguilla. So > defending this guy could easily have been a fight to my death as an > Anguilla ISP. First, Mr. Cate, I appreciate your service, and I think it's a step in the right direction. The way that I see it your service is focused on providing a degree of regulatory arbitrage. It also seems that the service is designed, and defended with those purposes in mind. As far as I can tell you did and do not intend Offshore Information Services to be a "Data Haven" in the strict sense of the word. I recall you stating that rather specifically, but I may have missed attributation somewhere. Members of the list should try to take note of this. Mr. Cate is running a Regulatory Arbitrage Internet Service Provider (RAISP) not a Data Haven. To me the distinction is this: An RAISP seeks to avoid the application of undue reglation by locating in a jurisdiction where regulation is more limited. A Data haven seeks to avoid the application of any regulation by maintaining such secrecy and instant mobility so as to continue to operate even if authorities bring all their power to bear. Mr. Cate clearly is in a sensitive position that does not give him the instant mobility to just jump ship. He is at the mercy of the authorities (even if they are laxer than those say in the United States) to the extent he has no backup plan. This, by the way, is not a criticism. This is entirely consistent with his purpose. For the RAISP operator, the words "My lawyer tells me that's illegal here" is the end of the argument. For the Data Haven operator, the word "My lawyer tells me that's illegal here" prompts the command "Prepare to make the jump into cyberspace." I would suggest members of the list reconsider the value of the service provided by, and the limitations imposed on Mr. Cate. > -- Vince > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ > Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From mwohler at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 16 13:30:59 1996 From: mwohler at ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 04:30:59 +0800 Subject: Lunch with Bill, anyone? Message-ID: <199608161545.IAA13092@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> At 05:31 AM 8/16/96 -0700,John C. Randolph wrote: >Meeting Bill Gates would be every bit as exciting as meeting Tony >Orlando. Or maybe Wayne Newton. I don't mind the sarcasm regarding Gates, but watch what you say about Wayne Newton! From gimonca at skypoint.com Fri Aug 16 13:35:23 1996 From: gimonca at skypoint.com (Charles Gimon) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 04:35:23 +0800 Subject: Rubber Hose Algorithm Message-ID: There's a lot of armchair theorizing on this list about government oppression and such. For comparison purposes, here is a real-life example: ========================================= From: hrwatchnyc at igc.org Sent: 15 Agustus 1996 7:00 Subject: Indonesia--Arrest of Lecturer for Internet Communication Human Rights Watch sent the following letter, protesting the arrest of a university lecturer for communicating on the Internet, to the Indonesian government today. August 14, 1996 His Excellency M. Arifin Siregar Ambassador to the United States Embassy of Indonesia 2020 Mass. Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20036 Your Excellency: I am writing on behalf of Human Rights Watch/Asia to protest the arrest of Drs. Prihadi Beny Waluyo, a lecturer at Duta Wacana Christian University. Drs. Waluyo was arrested at his home by soldiers of the district military command. He was reportedly accused of distributing e-mail messages and also of sending messages relating to the July 27 riots to a destination in Holland. His arrest came after an unidentified person gave an officer photocopies of e-mail messages that were traced to Drs. Waluyo. The person claimed the printouts came from a store in Kebumen, a district of Yogyakarta. Following his arrest, Drs. Waluyo was interrogated by the military about his connections with the Peoples Democratic Party (PRD), which the government has accused of masterminding the riots, but he denied any involvement with the PRD. He acknowledged that he had sent messages over the Internet. Following his questioning, he was reportedly ordered to go to his home and was told to report to the district military command on a regular basis. He is said to be under strict surveillance. Human Rights Watch opposes actions by the Indonesian government to restrict electronic communication. As stated in Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression: this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. We believe that such forums provide a truly unique opportunity for people from around the globe to share their views with an international audience. By allowing unrestricted communication, important issues can receive the benefit of serious discussion by the broadest cross-section of society. If the Internet is to achieve its potential to become a global information infrastructure, it is important, at the present moment, to agree to allow its unrestricted development. We urge that Drs. Waluyi and every other citizen be allowed to receive and transmit electronic mail without fear of harassment, intimidation, or arrest. Sincerely, Sidney Jones Executive Director Human Rights Watch/Asia cc: His Excellency Nugroho Wisnumurti, Ambassador to the United Nations Gopher Address://gopher.humanrights.org:5000 Listserv address: To subscribe to the list, send an e-mail message to majordomo at igc.apc.org with "subscribe hrw-news" in the body of the message (leave the subject line blank). Human Rights Watch 485 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10017-6104 TEL: 212/972-8400 FAX: 212/972-0905 E-mail: hrwnyc at hrw.org 1522 K Street, N.W. Washington D.C. 20005 TEL: 202/371-6592 FAX: 202/371-0124 E-mail: hrwdc at hrw.org ========================================= ObCrypto: On the brighter side, some individuals on soc.culture.indonesia have become remailer users. Others have been forging Usenet headers with varying degrees of success. From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Aug 16 13:39:40 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 04:39:40 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Vincent Cate wrote: > > Tim: > > Rather, there is an "archetype," if you will, of what a "remailer" is, what > > a "data haven" is, what a "tax shelter" is, etc. While we cannot reasonably > > expect a remailer to exactly match the archetype, we can point out obvious > > deficiencies. > > 1) Anguilla has secrecy laws. Professional relationships are confidential. > There are strong secrecy laws. I have not given out taxbomber's > name, nor will I as I could face legal action if I did. > > 2) Anguilla has no sales or income taxes. A business does not need to > report anything about income, sales, etc, to the government (or anyone > else). If a guy wants to sell his data and keep 100% of the profits > instead of 50% or 60%, then Anguilla would be a haven for him. > > 3) We don't have the same laws as other countries, so there are things > that can be done here. For example, we can export encryption > software. Also, we will have bingo.com in Anguilla. > > There are deficiencies from a cypherpunk or Libertarian point of view. And > these are interesting. And exactly what I want to do is changing. As I > said, Anguilla is not the datahaven of cypherpunks wet dreams. I am sure > there are no datahavens that match the cypherpunk concept of an ideal > datahaven, yet. > > But I think the term DataHaven applies as well to Anguilla as any other > place I know of. > > Tim, we would all be very happy if you were to locate a country that could > be the site of the ideal datahaven, and finance a couple cypherpunks to > setup there. It would be a big help to our cause. Could you do this? In the way that you suggest, I would argue it is not possible. You cannot ever have a "DataHaven" in a single jurisdiction. As Mr. Cate notes, there is no jurisdiction that will fit the bill, nor do I ever expect that one will be created. > In the mean time, people may have to exist in cyberspace (like > www.taxbomber.com) without having a totally secure physical location. The trick is to get the ISP to exist in cyberspace, or ever will it be subject to the whim of the local authority. This is a key and very important distinction. > This is not the end of the world, or really even that painful. If done > right you could be down for only an hour - just long enough for > nameservers to change. Taxbomber is now setup to do it very fast next > time, if the need ever comes. Tim, I think you have even advocated this > approach, not stressing the physical location, just the cyberspace > location. No? I have advocated the approach, but as applied to service providers, not users of service providers. > -- Vince > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ > Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Aug 16 14:00:49 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:00:49 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: <199608160257.VAA20466@bermuda.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Arun Mehta wrote: > > > I'm sure this has come up before, but what would prevent a server > > > being located on a buoy or something at sea outside territorial > > > limits (or when satellites become cheaper, on a satellite itself) > > > offering such services? > > living periods, electrcity and communications are in place, They > > are generally built outside of the territorial waters of most > > countries to avoid any damage to the shorelines if oil spilled > > (possibility for becoming its own country?) and with the hoops > > that Shell Oil went through to please Greenpeace with its last > > oil platform. You have to wonder how cheap these could sell > > for just to get them off the oil companies hands? > (The machine crashed when I was writing this letter, so if cpunks got two, > I apologize.) > How would this rig be defended? .50 Machine guns on the decks, everyone on board capable of shooting straight carrying at least a pistol and gas masks. The gas masks are for the tear gas dispencers. Hire Vinnie? There are ways to make it inadvisable to attack the system. Blackmail material is always a good thing. > Pirates still exist. Even if you can give them something to think about > with a 30/06 bullet at their waterline, there are always small countries > who have navies that can be hired. They may be small and defenseless > compared to the US navy, but against a basically unarmed oil rig, do have > the ability to sink the rig at their whim. A couple of surplus wire guided missles might go a long way to disuading them. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Aug 16 14:05:17 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:05:17 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608151851.NAA09462@einstein> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > > Hi all, > > > On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > > > > > Forwarded message: > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:24:39 -0400 (EDT) > > > > From: Black Unicorn > > > > Subject: Re: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches > > > > > > > > Correct. No warrant is required to observe that which is freely collected > > > > after eminating from the residence of another and observed off his > > > > property. > > > > > > > > Same concept applies to the "sniff" test and ariel views into greenhouses. > > > > > > Pitty somebody doesn't bring a suite against the FCC under this logic. It > > > would particularly impact radar detectors, cell phones, and other types of > > > scanners. > > > > Uh, what is the chain of logic that supports this suit exactly? > > Simple actualy. The police don't need a warrant to collect such information > because it is in the public domain (ie not private and therefor requiring > a search warrant and probable cause). Therefore anybody (not just cops) > can pick it up. This argument breaks down when one looks at the difference between state action and private action. Were one to follow this logic, it would come to pass that citizens could get warants to search neighbor's residences. > It is becoming more and more popular for governments to limit the ability > of scanners and other such detectors to pick up information supposedly > to protect privacy. The above states that if it is eminating from the > residence (and by extension person) and is picked up off their property, > perhaps on or in public space then it is fair game. Fair game for law enforcement use and can be presented in court, yes. And, I might add, there is a different standard for voice communications however carried. The heat from a indoor pot garden is a different matter, and incidently, the matter on which the question was presented. > States such as N. Carolina (per extension via the 14th) should be > prohibited from regulating or otherwise controlling possesion and use > of radar detectors (in this case) which are currently illegal for > private persons to operate. There is the additional matter of the obstruction of justice issues.. >I< tend to agree with you, but I see the arguments on the other side as well. > If the police don't need a warrant to > collect information then citizens are equaly able to recieve that > information as well. How EXACTLY does this follow? > Since the above ruling states that as long as the > emissions are eminating from the site and the reception takes place > other than at the site (in this case, being inside the police car) > , perhaps along a public highway, then no privacy is involved. This > means that citizens have a right, by extension, to know when they are > being beamed by radar. Again, you need to distinguish law enforcement purposes and private purposes. > This same chain of logic can be extended to cell phones and such as > well. And yet you need a warrant to intercept cell phone conversation. > This connection is even clearer when one realizes that the only difference > between IR and your cell phone eminations is frequency. The intermediate > vector boson in both cases is a photon. And the fact that cellphones carry voice communications. > It is similar to arresting somebody for wearing a blue shirt but letting > the person wearing the red shirt go free. ANd having the blue shirt say "kill the president" maybe would even out your example. > The rationale being that since > the frequency of the blue shirt is higher it is fundamentaly different > then the red shirt. No, the rational being that the blue shirt carries a communication more complicated than a simple speed reading, or heat emmission. > This ruling is prima facia evidence that the judicial system as a whole > has no clear grasp of technology, not just Internet technology. I think you are mistaken. > > Jim Choate > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From grafolog at netcom.com Fri Aug 16 14:07:28 1996 From: grafolog at netcom.com (jonathon) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:07:28 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, William Knowles wrote: > Where is Redonda on the map, I'm too lazy to look it up, It is a dependancy of Anguilla. The only permanent inhabitants are birds. I don't remember if Redonda, or Anguilla's other dependency is the one that is under water at high tide. << That little problem hasn't prevented Anguilla from issueing stamps, and currency for both of those dependencies. >> xan jonathon grafolog at netcom.com VapourWare is like the Tao, Looked for it cannot be found, Reached for it cannot be touched, Waited for not even FedX can deliver; From sandfort at crl.com Fri Aug 16 14:16:54 1996 From: sandfort at crl.com (Sandy Sandfort) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:16:54 +0800 Subject: Billy boy's satellites [Was - Floating DataHaven] In-Reply-To: <321446BF.20431CA7@systemics.com> Message-ID: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Gary Howland wrote: > Doesn't the low orbit part mean that the satellites will have a > low life expectancy, meaning a new launch every couple of days? "Low orbit" is used in a relative sense as compared to satellites in geosynchronous orbit. The Teledesic satellites will orbit in the 700km range--hundreds of kilometers above the wispy highest reaches of earth's astmosphere. At that height, there will be virtually no difference in orbital decay from that of geosynchronous birds. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Aug 16 14:19:33 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:19:33 +0800 Subject: (NOISE) Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer In-Reply-To: <19960815232910268.AAB222@[194.90.26.189]> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, geoff wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com > Date: Fri Aug 16 02:41:34 1996 > Unicorn, > > > No, I was merely pointing out that if the review revealed that it > > had problems (one assumed that the intent of peer review is to reveal > > such problems in the first place, but perhaps you just like giving > > software away?) then the offered reward was valueless. > > Peer review seems to have voted that their risk paid off. > > > A lot of people use DES on this list too I'll wager. > and... > > > I "tried out" your promotional scheme when I read your message, and > > it was that scheme which my opinion targeted. > > You misinterpreted my reply to a list member's enquiry about whether > our offer of Pronto Secure in exchange for feedback was still > available. > > > This is a subjective question. > Yes. > > > Cypherpunks is always getting the cash poor developer who thinks he > > very clever because he has to pay testers no money if he offers his > > new product free to the person who discovers a flaw, or writes a > > review. > > Unicorn, you are again letting your fingers move faster than your > brain. On what do you base your evaluation of our liquidity ? I didn't say anything about your liquidity did I? (not that > it is relevant). Most Cypherpunks are technically savvy and crypto > aware people, they provide a perfect community for evaluating and > debugging a security enabling product. Which is why people are constantly trying to get their services for what is in effect nothing. > I would strongly recommend this > route to any developer of serious security enhancing software. So would I, however, the assumption that "cypherpunk crypto review services" are to be had for nothing is the height of arrogance. > My > sincere thanks to all c'punks who have and continue to provide > incredibly valuable input into Pronto Secure. If you were sincere, you'd thank them with cash. Afterall, you seem to suggest that you have a good deal of liquidity eh? > > From your home page, I would guess that you request that reviewers > > allow you to make their comments public. That's called an > > endorsement, and, by the way, people are usually paid for them. > > Sometimes in the millions. Think Michael Jordan is getting a deal > > when you use his name to promote your product and then give him a > > $99.00 piece of software (which is effectively worth the amount of > > time it takes to write a few kiss ass paragraphs on the software, not > > $99.00)? > > Unicorn, you are again making groundless assumptions. I suggest that > you do some fence painting before you enlighten us with your opinions > about our "kiss ass paragraphs" of code. Uh, the kiss ass paragraphs were the reviewers comments, not your code. Are you so used to attacks that you see every comment as one or what? > Unless Michael Jordon is reading Schneier on the sly, his endorsement > of Pronto secure is not worth 99c. THAT, is the key of your ignorance. Endorsements are valueable if they bring business, period. Picture big ole MJ on TV with his suit and tie holding up your product and proclaiming that his multi-level global investment strategy would be impossible to do the way he does it without pronto-secure. Not worth 99c? Please. > > Alturisim is a pipe dream. > Depends what you are putting in your pipe :) > I venture that most c'punks would agree that moving strong e-mail > security into mainstream is a good thing. This is not going to happen > without people making money from it. Make all the money you want, but I grow weary of seeing "review my product and get a consolation prize" deals. I doubt I'm the only one. > >> Unicorn, you are invited to whitewash my fence :) > > Do I have to review pronto secure first? > Yes. I rest my case. > Geoff. > > - --------------------------------------------------------------- > Geoff Klein, Pronto Secure Product Manager; www.commtouch.com > My PGP public Key 1814AD45 can be obtained by sending a message > to geoff at commtouch.co.il with "Get PGP Key" as the subject. > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.3i > Charset: noconv > > iQCVAwUBMhO1s0Lv5OMYFK1FAQG5WAP/XoLteaVpdhnLpj/pk/1aPiWX7Nx/h1cc > 5Sf0mgOWv3Q9MASWHV2lKrgqF9jc15ZaymfJZDq1duGttrPj6SJqX/nwOTcYi006 > Hh3qh+LnXWnBd7QA/mZL5Fn4SLAOBno/uspqwMbM+6DCw39MpCY2NG0jQ2Qi8vMH > n1IG+PYYTAs= > =5HnW > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From sameer at c2.net Fri Aug 16 14:56:08 1996 From: sameer at c2.net (sameer) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:56:08 +0800 Subject: remailers/kiddie porn In-Reply-To: <199608160454.VAA00547@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608161625.JAA21883@lachesis.c2.net> > and I doubt there are 5000 addresses on nymservers or > reply-block users. There are probably more than this amount. -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 Community ConneXion, Inc. FAX: 510-986-8777 The Internet Privacy Provider http://www.c2.net/ sameer at c2.net From vince at offshore.com.ai Fri Aug 16 15:33:05 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:33:05 +0800 Subject: Protecting floating datahavens? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: William Knowles > Now I don't claim to be a naval defence expert, But from what > I do read of the dogeared copies of Jane's Defence Weekly, > Would be to install three or four Phalanx Close-In Weapons For those interested in todays piracty I recomment "Outlaws of the Ocean" by G.O.W. Mueller and Freda Adler. The main types of ocean outlaws: 1) Smuggling (freon, dugs "square groupers" - bales of pot, ...) 2) Immigration (illegal immigration can be very profitable) 3) Insurance Fraud (tanker sinks, but unknow to the insurance company the oil had already been offloaded...) 4) Violent crime - what I think of as piracy Piracy is not a victimless crime. Since there are victims, there is someone to shoot at the pirates. Makes it a tough business and not as profitable as, some others. Most piracy occures in "known dangerous areas". Other piracy is drug dealers taking very fast boat so they have an unregistered boat. There were some stories about freighters being attacked in one area, but once they started all carrying guns, the attacks ended. After reading this my impression was that the odds of car-jacking or mugging inside the USA were higher than the odds of a cruising boat getting attacked by pirates. Pirates are going to pick what looks to them like easy targets. A Phalanx or two on the side of a large boat would not look like an easy target. :-) In fact, just one semi-automatic mounted on the side would probably prevent all attacks by pirates. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From scraver at mnet.fr Fri Aug 16 15:52:25 1996 From: scraver at mnet.fr (Arnauld Dravet) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:52:25 +0800 Subject: signoff cypherpunks Message-ID: <3214BCA6.6ED8124F@mnet.fr> signoff cypherpunks From vipul at pobox.com Fri Aug 16 16:03:08 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:03:08 +0800 Subject: FCC_ups In-Reply-To: <199608112108.VAA23815@pipe1.ny3.usa.pipeline.com> Message-ID: <199608170231.CAA00337@fountainhead.net> > > 8-10-96. WaPo: > > "Phone Service Via the Internet May Slash Rates." > > Labs of Advanced Technology has developed a way for > people to make long-distance calls over the Internet > using only their telephones, at about half the price of > ordinary toll calls. Customers would merely call a > central number, then dial their long-distance numbers. > The call is carried on the Internet, then put back onto > the local phone system at its destination. The company > plans to charge 5 to 8 cents per minute for all domestic > U.S. calls, which represents a 50 to 75 percent discount > off most domestic long-distance rates. International > rates would depend on arrangements made with foreign > phone companies. "Twenty years from now, and probably > sooner, I don't see the giants of the telecommunications > industry existing anymore," said the company's > president. The giants hoot, "FCC, PACs, whack him." > This kind of report is often confusing and more often misleading. Most of the internet still runs on "the infrastructure provided by the giants of the telecommunications industry, who according to the report would cease to exist after some time". Bigbells and Babybells provide cheap [flat rate local calls] and expensive long-distance calls. They make most of their money on the later. This money goes into development and maintainance of their infrastructure. Once they loose these profits 1. They won't be able to provide cheap local-calls and/or 2. They would go bankrupt and shut the entire network which is used by many to connect to the internet. This is complex problem and the only solution I see to it is a different pricing policy. [Prolly a differential pricing system might fit the scenario but I don't have much idea about that] First flat rates would have to go out. If Alice uses her phone for 5 hrs in month and pay _x_ dollars and Bob uses his for 100 hrs and pays _x_ dollars, then Alice is subsidising Bob, which is not really ethical. Everyone should pay for the amount of bandwith one is using. Another criteria for pricing can be content. Which would also imply that a guy sitting in Delhi, India (like me) pays more for reaching a Server based in US, as compared to a local server. --- Vipul From alano at teleport.com Fri Aug 16 16:09:18 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:09:18 +0800 Subject: [Noise] Re: Lunch with Bill, anyone? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960816180029.00b2708c@mail.teleport.com> At 05:31 AM 8/16/96 -0700, John C. Randolph wrote: >Latest from Microsoft(R): > >> > The Windows 95 Anniversary is just around the corner. >> > Stay tuned to WinNews for special announcements to learn how >> > you could win lunch with Bill Gates, chat with industry >> > luminaries, and download a really cool screen saver. Do we get to decide where to have lunch? I know this great biker bar... ]:> --- |"Computers are Voodoo -- You just have to know where to stick the pins."| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Aug 16 16:11:48 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:11:48 +0800 Subject: Jurisdictionless Distributed Data Havens In-Reply-To: <199608151452.JAA02130@xanadu.io.com> Message-ID: RE: Your distributed Data Mockup. If this ever gets to the point where it might be implemented on a commercial basis, please let me know. It may mesh well with a project I am working on and may be profitable for you. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From an572010 at anon.penet.fi Fri Aug 16 16:18:38 1996 From: an572010 at anon.penet.fi (The honourable Vyshinsky) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:18:38 +0800 Subject: The Transparency Of Cyber-Nitrate In-Reply-To: <839785435snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <9608161725.AA07803@anon.penet.fi> Rush Graves writes: >> yawen at enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes: >> >> Alexander Baron writes: >> >> In article <4ui6qj$bk5 at news.enter.net> yawen at enter.net "Yale F. Edeiken" >> >writes: >> > >> >> > texts on Hitler. You demonstrate another typical denier failing as >> >> > well. One of your >> >> > friends (according to your story) goofed. Insttead of blaming him, you >> >> > called someone who correctly pointed you to a valid source of >> >> > information a nasty name. >> >> > Where is your apology, Lyin' Al? >> > >> >> You really are one unpleasant person, aren't you Yale? You must meet an >> >> awful lot of "anti-Semites". >> > >> > Actually I meet very few outside of alt.revisionism. >> >> "Me too." I hardly believed these dinosaurs still existed a year ago. I >> think it's healthy to keep in mind just how unrepresentative the >> Nazihuggers are. >> >> The ZGram list and the rec.music.white-power vote are pretty good Liar. You know very well the rec.music.white-power vote was falsified. >> indicators that of the millions of people on the Internet, only a few >> hundred are seriously into this garbage. Liar. You know very well that Stormfront-L is not representative of net racismo. It appears unusually intelligent vs. usenet racists is because of Don Black's moderation. There aren't constant interruptions by Andrew Mathis, Mike Beebe, ara, scoop, sexy Jeanne Kapowski, etc., threatening to rape, mutilate, poison and murder racists, thanks to Mr. Black. You also know very well that numbers of mailing list subscribers do not translate to active interest in a newsgroup. How popular would comp.cypherpunks be if it was created and propagated? FAR more popular than anyone would expect from a mere 1,000 or so current subscribers. In fact, this is your's and tcmay, Sameer, shamrock, etc., duty to write a RFD and CFV for an UNMODERATED comp.cypherpunks newsgroup. On second thought, you SHOULDN'T participate because you censor by moderation yourself as a power trip. You know, in hindsight, I think I hurt the r.m.w-p effort more than helped, I only posted to usenet about it and avoided mail. I shouldn't have respected cypherpunks enough to refuse to follow your practice of trolling against racists on the mailing list, I should have confined my campaign to cypherpunks. Another example, does the 40 or so subscribers to coder-punks indicate there is very little interest in coding for crypto- at nonymity?!?????? >> I spent about an hour today reading Ingrid/Zundel's 93-page treatise on >> "Background and Detailed Chronology of Ernst Zundel Persecution," which >> Ingrid was so kind as to send me (OK, she didn't exactly know it was >> me...). Near the end of the subsection called "The First Trial -- >> 'Spreading False News," I found a very encouraging couple of paragraphs, >> which I'll quote here. Liar. Either post your entire copy to alt.revisionism or prove yourself a lying capitali$t bastard who's jealous about Zuendel because you are a J$wish preppie homo$exual righti$(t) ri(c)h pig. >> A year after Zuendel's trial a 200 page book entitled "Hate on >> Trial: The Zuendel Affair, the Media and Public Opinion in Canada" was >> published.... >> >> "Hate on Trial" sought to measure through scientific polling data >> the effect of the massive coverage of the Zuendel trial on public >> opinion in Canada concerning Jews, the Holocaust and Germans. "The >> central motivation for our research project," wrote the authors, "was >> to find out what truly happened in the mind of the Canadian public. Did >> support for the Nazi perspective grow as a result of the trial and as a >> result of the media coverage of the trial? Did more Canadians become >> prejudiced against Jews as a result of the affair? How were attitudes >> towards Germans affected? What specifc roles did television and the >> press have in shaping Canadian attitudes? Were the media as harmful as >> many people, including journalists, feared?" (p. 31) >> >> The researchers found that news coverage of the trial: >> >> "...did more harm to the image of Germans than of Jews... Two thirds >> of Canadians did not change their opinions as a result of the >> extensive coverage of Mr. Zuendel's sensational seven week trial, but >> of those who did, the vast majority became less sympathetic to Germans >> and more sympathetic to Jews, the authors conclude... [W]hile >> television had a strong emotional impact, the effect was entirely >> opposite to what many people feared. 'People who were heavy, heavy >> television viewers said they became more sympathetic to Jews,' >> Professor Conrad Winn of Carleton University said." (Globe & Mail, >> March 22, 1986) >> >> False "German v. Jew" conflict aside (in fact most Germans repudiate Mr. >> Zuendel's propaganda), I find it very encouraging that Zuendel largely >> failed to troll up support. The public isn't as stupid as some people >> think. Prove it, liar. I can prove the opposite with just these examples: racist terrorism, Oklahoma City, Vipers, J$ws, Microsoft, Holocaust, capitali$m, flying saucers, penny stocks, etc. >> The full citation of the referenced work is: >> >> Weimann, Gabriel and Conrad Winn. Hate on Trial: the Zundel affair: the >> media and public opinion in Canada. New York: Mosaic Press, 1986. >> >> I'll probably go pick it up at the Law Library to see how faithful >> Ingrid/Zundel's review of the book is. I don't see why they'd lie about >> this particular bit of information. Why do you pretend to be Ingrid in your latest post? Are you jealous of the pretty woman you'll never have because of your difficulties with those sort of things? --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Aug 16 16:31:23 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:31:23 +0800 Subject: Floating DataHaven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Vincent Cate wrote: > > William Knowles > > > > Something that I thought would make an excellent data haven would > > be older offshore oil platforms, > > [...] > > You have to wonder how cheap these could sell > > for just to get them off the oil companies hands? > > A floating DataHaven is probably the way to get the ultimate in > freedom. Disagree strongly. Unless you were willing to arm the platfom (a proposition which aproaches the feasibility of say SPECTER in James Bond films) you are much more vulnerable. > There is someone on Anguilla that bought a used floating oil platform for > $1 million. It is big enough for 200 people to live on. It is not here, > so I have not seen it. > > There is someone else here who says that there are some really old ones > that you can get just for hauling them away. Some countries will not let > owners just sink them. > > You can get Internet via radio links for reasonable prices. And via > satellite for almost affordable prices. When Bill Gates 900 satellites > get up there it should be very affordable. > > -- Vince > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ > Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Fri Aug 16 16:31:49 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:31:49 +0800 Subject: c|net reports UK partial usenet ban Message-ID: <3214D420.349A@vail.tivoli.com> UK Metropolitan Police Service bans smutty newsgroups. See it all at . ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Aug 16 16:38:33 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:38:33 +0800 Subject: Fw: Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, snow wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Black Unicorn wrote: > > you to make their comments public. That's called an endorsement, and, by > > the way, people are usually paid for them. Sometimes in the millions. > > Think Michael Jordan is getting a deal when you use his name to promote > > your product and then give him a $99.00 piece of software (which is > > effectively worth the amount of time it takes to write a few kiss ass > > paragraphs on the software, not $99.00)? > > > > The time it takes M. Jordon to write a couple of paragraphs would > be worth at least $99. If MJ wanted a copy he need only tell someone else to write the paragraphs and take the copy from that someone else. The point is that the "prize" is worth only that which it takes to obtain it. In this case, a bum could write a review (his time is worth nearly nothing in op. cost) and turn it over to whomever. > > > Petro, Christopher C. > petro at suba.com > snow at smoke.suba.com > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From lzirko at c2.org Fri Aug 16 16:40:45 1996 From: lzirko at c2.org (Lou Zirko) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:40:45 +0800 Subject: Installing IE 3.0 Final under NT 4.0b2 [Was Re:NT remailer] Message-ID: <199608161805.LAA06902@infinity.c2.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: rednax at asiapac.net, sryan at reading.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 16 13:05:38 1996 You can try the following. I will be attempting it myself tonight. I also understand that the 128-bit version is available again. Good luck! Lou Zirko - ----Forwarded---- From: "Scott Johnson" Subject: Re: Beware V3 of Internet Explorer Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.pre-release,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.misc References: <1996Aug13.085057.6086 at news.ntrs.com> Organization: ISC Distributors, Inc. Message-ID: <01bb88d4$f88dd6b0$c8c1a0cc at sjohnson> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: sjohnsonnt Date: 13 Aug 96 17:09:07 GMT Lines: 34 Path: news.c2.org!news.zeitgeist.net!cygnus.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!su-new s-f eed4.bbnplanet.com!news.theglobal.net! Xref: news.c2.org comp.os.ms-windows.nt.pre-release:10225 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.misc:137713 There is a way to get the production release to run on the beta II of NT. It requires a little work but it does run fine. It seems the only problem is in the install. If you follow these steps you can use the install from the beta if IE 3.0 Beta II on the production cab file and it will install. 1. Run the self extracting cab file for the beta II of IE. This should produce a temporary dir in the temp dir on drive c. You will have to find it as it is named something different each time. 2. When you run this the first question will be do you want to cont. Answer yes. When it asks for you to agree to the lic. look for the temp dir. Make a copy of it somewhere and disagree. 3. Run the Prod code. Agree to the lic. and wait for the prompt for optional Internet components. Find the temp dir for this install and make a copy of it. 4. Run msie.exe from yorur new dir in step 4. This will make a new temp dir. Find it and make a copy. 5. In the dir made in step 4 you will find a CAB file and a IE.inf file. These need to be copied to the dir made in step 2. REN the ie.inf to ohrome.inf and run the infinst.exe file. This should install the production code on your beta II of NT Good Luck. Steve Bonine wrote in article <1996Aug13.085057.6086 at news.ntrs.com>... > The just-released version of Internet Explorer for NT informs you that it > requires build 1381 or higher to run. It imparts this bit of trivia AFTER it > has blown away the IE that you had installed. Beta 2 is build 1314; 1381 must > be the one that they have shipped to VARs. > > Brilliant move. Release a product to the general public which runs on an OS > that you have NOT released to the general public. > Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko at c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMhS4fctPRTNbb5z9AQF55wf8DIt7XF/DxxEJrppB4wmbqp2dz4zv8An2 2pJVieQ7CpYESozJCZFuHZjIxg29okjqQhPCIM4Q/4OHkcuRmZ8jFI+FCnO+0NZr 2jp2CI3AAWJ6cZBifwMrNCTBxySo5ZVLGxUQwZKyfcDHDWvZpoMTWEJXoI+tVSc/ FC0yRdQbwqaIrO4K+4k98nycS4CdMSTPhAU6bmC4KWFwX5h54JVV7D033FkAUklV Esknfo2zE7byq10UZqMqYCs6/5u8PlIPtqkhxo/slQFT8wr461RVO/OuJBJyiavi B1q3wrgIkTF9dXS1zHpJO4JwqI0TLtgLpEGas8T9HRdBkI6ojKaXxA== =tvhI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 16 16:40:59 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:40:59 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: TIm, a layer of tin foil is not the same as a professionally installed and maintained Faraday cage. I can envision circulating currents on the tinfoil. Ie, ground loop type of situation. All imaging is depenmdant upon the target having some radiating characteristic. If the gun shields a gun-shaped peice of the body from radiating in millimeter waves, you can build a gun detector. If you're sure that a firearm always looks like a gun, that is.... From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 16 16:41:04 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:41:04 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto In-Reply-To: <199608160821.BAA02713@toad.com> Message-ID: Bill Stewart writes: > (If Clinton had said things like "Of course I tried to avoid the draft > and smoked dope, I'm no fool" and had dropped the draft and the Drug War > instead of supporting both after he was President, I might have There been no draft for about 20 years. What have _you been smoking? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Aug 16 16:41:09 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:41:09 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <199608162021.NAA18831@dns1.noc.best.net> At 10:49 PM 8/14/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: > I was trying to explain how incomes and prices happened to be > lower in India, That was not an explanation, that was mystic word salad. It would be an explanation if wealth mysteriously rained from the sky, rather than was produced by men. James A Donald wrote: > > The fact is a company like Informix has a campus in India, and > > it has campuses in the US that are largely staffed by Indian teams, > > and it will pay big bucks to get its people out of India, even > > though it has to pay them more than ten times as much in the US. Arun Mehta wrote: > I imagine (not knowing why Informix does what it does) that the > reason might have something to do with: > > 1) Bringing the programmer closer to the customer, to understand > the problem better, or to commission the software, debug it under > working conditions, whatever In fact what gets sent to the Indian campus is largely legacy work, which is in large part precisely the work that requires the closest contact with the customer, contact with actual working conditions, and the like. This seems to be a general practice, not just an Informix practice, for in an article on "India's silicon valley" I read that the work done in India was largely done on existing legacy apps, often in obsolete languages and operating systems. This is of course the work that places the least amount of the companies intellectual assets in India, and thus the work that gives the Indian government the least power over Informix and its activities. Informix could abandon the Indian campus and all the intellectual assets on which it was working, and all the physical assets located there, at any moment and not suffer any serious loss or inconvenience. It is overwhelmingly clear that the question is simply who has the power? Those who wish to hire peoples services in order to produce wealth, or those who can command peoples services because they have guns? That is what makes most people in some places poor and most people in some places affluent. > Could you please be more precise? In what way does the "power of > the Indian government" intrude? You use the term "proven" rather > loosely... there could be other explanations for the company > wanting to move its employees around. Presumably the same kind of reasons as caused foreign companies to flee India the first time around. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From bart.croughs at tip.nl Fri Aug 16 16:47:36 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:47:36 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8BAF.679B76C0@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> I have thought a bit more about the question I asked a couple of days ago: how can you proof that investment of American capital abroad wouldn't lower the standard of living in the US? So far, I didn't receive a convincing answer to this question. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I may have a proof. It's a so-called 'reductio ad absurdum'. It goes like this: "If it would be bad for the standard of living of American citizens when American capital is invested in foreign countries, then it would also be bad for the standard of living of citizens of any American state when capital in this state would be invested in another state. After all, when the negative effect of investing American capital abroad on the standard of living of American citizens outweighs the positive effect, there seems to be no good reason why this would be any different on the level of states within the US. Why would it be bad for American citizens when American capital leaves the country, and at the same time be good for citizens in Arkansas when capital leaves Arkansas? But if this reasoning is correct, then it would also be bad for the standard of living of citizens of any American city when the capital in this city would be invested in another city. Etcetera. This conclusion is clearly absurd, so the original statement that it would be bad for the standard of living of American citizens when American capital is invested in a foreign country, must also be wrong. Bart Croughs From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 16 16:48:28 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:48:28 +0800 Subject: implausible defenses & tax havens In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960816060630.006dc138@mail.io.com> Message-ID: << Greg Broiles text elided >> This is called the "smell test" by old tax hands..... From bart.croughs at tip.nl Fri Aug 16 16:51:18 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:51:18 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8BAF.6ED65AE0@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Sandy Sandfort wrote: >On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Bart Croughs wrote: >> You claim that I must show that foreign capital investment >> will not flow back to US workers. But in my original post, I >>said: > >> "Of course there are advantages also for the US (shareholders >> will get higher returns, trade will increase), but how can you >> proof that these advantages will offset the disadvantage of the >> lowered amount of capital in the US? " > >> You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the >> U.S. is worse off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how >> can you proof that the US isn't worse off when US capital moves >> abroad? >The movement of capital from the US was an *assumption* in Bart's >argument. He has done nothing to show that it would in fact >happen. When he proves that, they it would be reasonable to >expect me to offer proof that foreign capital will flow to the US. So you are saying that no American capital is invested overseas? That would be a remarkable claim. But maybe you mean that I assume that there is a *net* movement of capital from the US to other countries. That is, you think that I assume that more US capital is invested in foreign countries, than there is capital invested from foreign countries in the US. But I don't assume this. I just assume that *some* American capital is invested overseas. That's enough for my question to be relevant. And even if there is absolutely no American capital invested abroad, there is still the question for other countries: if investors in country A decide to invest their capital abroad, how can you proof that this wouldn't have a negative impact on the standard of living of the workers in country A? >While I'm sure per capita capital investment is a *factor* in >determining how high wages are, it certainly is not the only >factor. It appears that Bart has fixated on this one to the >exclusion of other (probably more important) factors. For my argument to work, it really doesn't matter *how* important the amount of capital invested is in determining wages. My argument works the moment that you agree that, other things being equal, the higher the amount of capital invested in a country, the higher the wages will be in that country. Bart Croughs From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 16 16:52:00 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:52:00 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof In-Reply-To: <960815192512_457514748@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: > > This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could > > get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one > > from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed The income "tax" is not a tax.... it is an excise. There is a crucial difference. Taxes are assessed against *things*, excises are assessed against events. If you don't pay a property tax, the assessor forcloses agains the thing. If the thing changes hands during the tax year, the tax due is pro-rated against both parties interest in the item. An excise is assessed against an event. For example, the constructive recipt of income. As in, when the employer disburses it to your constructive (*legal definition*) control. That's why you cannot say to the IRS, "Sorry, I already spent it all. You can't assesse me, I don't have it". From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 16 16:54:05 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:54:05 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof In-Reply-To: <96Aug15.132311edt.20486@janus.algorithmics.com> Message-ID: > >> In the USA, we have a system that ensures that the burden of proof is on > >> the accuser. > > > Which explains why in the U.S. the tax authorities take the money first > > and then require the citizen to be the "accuser" in Tax Court, pleading to > > get his seized assets back. Tim, bad as the Congress is, it did _not_ give the arbitrary powers you describe to the IRS. It's clear that you have not studied the Tax Code paragraph-by-paragraph, nor are you keeping up with Tax Court and District Court rulings. I have (in selected sections) and I do. The IRS does NOT have the power to "just seize" things. There is an Administrative sequence that they are required to follow, involving notices to the taxpayer, opportunities to gain abatements, etc. The courts are unanimous on holding the IRS to these strict requirements. The IRS is without a doubt, the most abuse-o-genic TLA we are cursed with. It is not unstoppable. I have won against them a few times, acting _pro se_. The IRS is very dependant upon its *image* of being not-worth-fighting. They cultivate this, very carefully. It is purely an image. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 16 16:57:41 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:57:41 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alan Horowitz writes: > Bill, you are welcome to look at a layer of tin foil and give a sigh of > relief that you've shielded your gun or your crypto diskette or your > private body parts feom someone who knows what they're doing. Go ahead, > chant a mantra too, if it makes you feel better. If you wrap the aluminium foil around your cranium and the lead foil around your balls, make sure that the 2 metals don't touch when you stick your head up your ass. The resulting spark may cause the intestinal gas to explode. Oh dear!! Did I just post a bomb recipe??? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From vince at offshore.com.ai Fri Aug 16 17:01:44 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:01:44 +0800 Subject: ISPs in cyberspace - how? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Black Unicorn: > The trick is to get the ISP to exist in cyberspace, or ever will it be > subject to the whim of the local authority. > > This is a key and very important distinction. I agree. I think this would be a good focus for cypherpunks to think about for awhile. So let me try to start something. A first step is just having a domain name (foo.com) that you can move to different virtual hosts. This is still vulnerable at either the Internic or at your nameservers. Could also be a subdomain of some provider (say foo.c2.org), but then c2.org gets the pressure. So far I don't know of reporters going after the Internic for allowing a name (like foo.com). So this could be safe for awhile. But it is not totally secure. A better method would be to make our own cypherpunk top level domain (I think Sameer talked about this some time back). With this people would either have to setup their nameserver to use one of the cypherpunk nameservers or get the IP address from some other method (a web page, ftpable file, newsgroup, searching AltaVista, or a web page with a cgi script to do the lookup on a machine). But with this there would be no easy way to cut off a name, and the ISP could always relocate if their physical location were cut off (i.e. the IP address had to change). Then it is just an issue of coordinating this top level domain. Say a public key for each new subdomain and updates are done by sending a pgp signed message to each of the servers. With this type of design you could have hundreds or thousands of servers that each were updated independently. To shut it down would take shutting down a lot of nameservers. What do people think? -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From bart.croughs at tip.nl Fri Aug 16 17:03:09 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:03:09 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned Capital Message-ID: <01BB8BC5.8380DFE0@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Duncan Frissell wrote: >There is no straightforward link between amount of capital invested and >productivity or wages. If there were, some steel plants in the Soviet Union >would have had the best paid and most productive workers on earth. It's not a coincidence that you mention the Soviet Union. As I said in a previous post, Austrian economists like Murray Rothbard, Hans Hermann Hoppe, etc. don't consider government expenditures to be *investments* of capital; they consider all government expenditures to be *consumption*. >Additionally, countries which prevent capital outflows don't receive capital >inflows and thus become poorer. >DCF This is a good point when you talk about governments that will prevent *all* capital from flowing out. But a government could prevent the outflow of capital of it's own citizens, and still allow capital of foreigners to leave the country. As long as foreign capital isn't imprisoned, foreign capital could be attracted. Bart Croughs From bart.croughs at tip.nl Fri Aug 16 17:04:46 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:04:46 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8BC5.691DCF00@groningen08.pop.tip.nl> Sandy Sandfort wrote: >On a personal note: Bart the people on this list are highly intelligent Don't waste your reputation capital being a jerk. S a n d y< I agree that there are intelligent people on this list, but those who constantly have to take refuge in name-calling are obviously not among them. So I have an even better idea to protect my reputation capital: I won't answer your posts any longer. People could start thinking I have nothing better to do with my time. Bart Croughs From sparks at bah.com Fri Aug 16 17:23:59 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:23:59 +0800 Subject: Lunch with Bill, anyone? Message-ID: <199608162121.RAA11475@booz.bah.com> I would rather bee with Bella Abzug ( probably spelled wrong ) At 05:31 AM 8/16/96 -0700,John C. Randolph wrote: >Meeting Bill Gates would be every bit as exciting as meeting Tony >Orlando. Or maybe Wayne Newton. I don't mind the sarcasm regarding Gates, but watch what you say about Wayne Newton! From szabo at netcom.com Fri Aug 16 17:24:44 1996 From: szabo at netcom.com (szabo at netcom.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:24:44 +0800 Subject: Credit enforcement In-Reply-To: <199608152033.QAA03582@prob> Message-ID: <199608162123.OAA16545@netcom.netcom.com> Steve Omohundro writes on alt-inst: > I'm intrigued by the notion that in a digital economy > contracts might be enforced by design rather than by the good faith of > the participants. I have been intrigued by this possibility as well. See my essay at "http://www.best.com/~szabo/smart.contracts.html". Steve has put his finger on one of the basic outstanding problems in this area, namely the enforcement of credit. Currently there are several partially effective processes: * Reputation (especially credit reports): often effective, but only to a point, as it is often hard for the debtor to accurately judge the future reputational effects of an action (eg failure to pay a bill, taking out too large a loan, etc.) that has clear, local, beneficial effects today. This is more imbalance in knowledge between current and distant consequences among individual consumers, but even among large organizations with high credit ratings it is not an irrelevant factor. * Secured transactions: liens, etc. * Garnishment of future income * Law enforcement, especially to enforce transfer of control over liened assets, garnishment, etc. These processes have a fundamental property in common -- they violate the privity of credit transactions -- they bring in third parties to track reputations or enforce repayment. Credit transactions seem to entail a fundamental imbalance in incentives that can only be redressed by bringing in third parties. Secured credit need not violate privity if the physical control over the securing property can be shared. So that, for example, automobile credit can be secured as long as reposession is possible. The trick is to make repossession by the creditor easy but theft by third parties difficult. I have proposed "smart liens" along these lines, electronic security measures strong against third parties but with a "back door" for creditors. This well-specified, shared control over "smart property" more accurately reflects the agreement involving that property, so that there is less need for third parties. To even more accurately reflect the contract, we need a mechanism to eliminate the creditor control once the auto loan has been payed off. Alas, there is less incentive to provide these kinds of contractual process improvements in a market where government subsidizes the enforcement of contracts. Similar mechanisms might be possible for other kinds of security (houses, escrow accounts, etc.), but many valuable kinds of credit are unsecured, and we run into privity problems when it comes to garnishment of future income. Here, we are invoking third parties, namely the debtor's future contract counterparties. Any mechanism seemingly needs to involve them, but both principals have an incentive to enter a private, ungarnished contract in preference to one involving the creditor. (ie, the amount of garnishment is a surplus to be divided between principals who can route around it). A way to a solution, if it were feasible, would be to give the creditor shared control over the entire scope of of the debtor's income capabilities - or, a bit closer to practicality, over the entire scope of his digital income capabilities. A secondary solution is some combination of wide scope and limited compromise of privity. After all, money itself is a compromise of privity, since the contract parties rely on third parties to clear and maintain the value of the currency. Money's compromise of privity is well-defined, however, not an open-ended release of information and physical control, even over one's own person, as often occurs with credit reports and law enforcement respectively. Our challenge is to find privity compromises with such well-defined limits to enforce credit transactions. One possibility here is a "garnishable currency". All banks have an interest in enforcing credit, so they can make deals with each other to enforce credit via the garnishment of debtor bank account deposits at any participating bank. However, substantial amounts of garnishment (and if it provides a lower cost way of enforcing credit the amounts will be substantial) gives rise to an incentive for banks to fail to participate. Here the need to commonly clear a currency between banks can be used as a barrier to entry for such defectors. The currency is simply declared garnishable, and any banks who wish to deal in the currency must participate in the garnishing process. This currency wins against competitor currencies in a free-banking market because it provides a better means to enforce credit, allowing greater credit expansion at lower isk. On the other hand, traditional coin and currency transfers, and some kinds of digital cash transfers, need not involve deposits to bank accounts linked (usually by True Name, but a "debtor nym" could also work) to one's unsecured debts, and given that there is a market for these kinds of transfers for other reasons, its existence allows banks to defeat auditing of garnishment by other banks participating in that currency. Abuses of financial auditing for the purposes of extortion, inside information, etc. will likely maintain a major market for the non-deposit payment methods. Steve proposes "interval money" that would expire. A similar idea has been proposed by Tim May, a "time release" form of money that becomes good only after a certain date. These can probably be implemented by a digital mint expiring or activating special issues of digital cash, or by a third party issuing escrowed keys at specific times (since these keys are encrypted against the escrow agent, and that agent doesn't know what they will be used for, the escrow agent has no incentive to cheat). A technical issue here is whether the digital signature space is large enough to encompass one unique signature per unique credit transaction deadline into the indefinite future. While these protocols are intriguing, and potential building blocks for a solution, the institutions using them proposed so far seem to still rely on a solution to the deposit garnishment problem as discussed above, that is the problem of sufficiently disincentivizing the debtor from using non-garnishable alternatives while maintaining the privity of payments to those who are not unsecured debtors (the ability for these people to use non-deposit payment methods). Nick Szabo szabo at netcom.com http://www.best.com/~szabo/ From alanh at infi.net Fri Aug 16 18:18:42 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:18:42 +0800 Subject: implausible defenses & tax havens In-Reply-To: <199608160913.EAA18988@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: > Suppose that a computer consultant Mr. X knows cryptography so well > that his clients are willing to pay him $100/hr. Mr. X could conspire > with his client that he receives only $40/hr in taxable income, and the > rest he gets in form of digital cash. > > If X lives sufficiently modestly, the IRS will be having hard times The paying company has a tax return of it's own, which will be used to show how much was paid (actually or constructively) to Mr X. The IRS doesn't usually get it's indictments from circumstantial evidence. It gets them from the pissed off underlings who see Joe Cool Mr X getting away with shit they can't. How many secretaries, payroll clerks, human-relations staffers, etc, will be seeing the chain of paperwork that is generated by the "arrangement"? They know how normal payroll is handled. Some tiny percentage of these sheep are alert enough to put two and two together.... and it's all downhill from there. Let us recall how the (apparent) (alleged) UNabomber was identified.... From wb8foz at nrk.com Fri Aug 16 19:07:24 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:07:24 +0800 Subject: LEO, was Floating.... Message-ID: <199608162206.SAA04256@nrk.com> The biggest obstacle to LEO/ 'anywhere phones' is in fact the local PTT's. Not only do they fear loss of control [how do you 'cut the wires' as you raid a rebel village?] but as important, they fear loss of monopoly income on IDDD. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From rah at shipwright.com Fri Aug 16 19:14:56 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:14:56 +0800 Subject: Announcement: Mac-Crypto Conference Sept 5-6, 1996 Message-ID: The Membership of the Mac-Crypto List invites you to The First-Ever- Last-Minute- Under-the-Radar- Ask-Forgiveness-but-Not-Permission Macintosh Cryptography and Internet Commerce Software Development Workshop September 5 & 6, 1996 Apple R&D Campus, Cupertino, CA, USA This is a free workshop, but we'd *really* like it if you register (see below). SOME INVITED SPEAKERS Martin Minow Tim Dierks Marshall Clow Kay Guyer Will Price John Callas Quinn Sari Harrison Vinnie Moscaritolo Bob Hettinga Lucky Green Kee Nethery ...and the inevitable mystery speakers... (If you find your name on this list, and we haven't gotten ahold of you, you're invited to speak ;-).) (Also, if you're not on this list and you should be, you're invited to speak too!) WORKSHOP TOPICS: Introductions and overviews: Introduction to crypto technology, what is it who are the players. Introduction to electronic commerce and finacial cryptography How to use electronic commerce technology today Opportunities for the Mac Tech stuff: How to write internet software on the Mac Random number / password generation on the Mac (the key to strong crypto) Password management and the Mac Intenet Config - the next generation, working group Secure networking Open Sessions: We scheduled lots of time for developer demos and open discussions. ...and plenty of time for developers to network with Apple. We have also left time open for last-minute speakers. If you would like to present a paper or give a talk, please contact Vinnie Moscaritolo at . For more details and registration: The workshop is free. Please register now, though. Local Hotels: Cupertino Inn, 800-222-4828 Pretty much Across the Street. Cupertino Courtyard by Marriot, 800-321-2211 5 Minute Drive Inn at Saratoga 408-867-5020 About 3 Miles See you in Cupertino on September 5th and 6th! Vinnie Moscaritolo Apple Developer Tech Support http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From al177820 at campus.gda.itesm.mx Fri Aug 16 19:38:07 1996 From: al177820 at campus.gda.itesm.mx (Carlos L. Mariscal) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:38:07 +0800 Subject: Unix passwd-cracker online? Message-ID: Dear C'punks: (this is not Sandy, jeje) Just got to know from a very close friend of mine, and Unix administrator at very famous university in Mexico, that more than one person has obtained a specific password by entering the desired adresses'passord on a submnit form in a Web page. As far as my knowledges on Unix and experience obtained from a couple of hackers (the 'ethic' kind, if they can be called so), this would imply pretty much of a piece of technical work, and probably, the presence of human support to get such a system working. Actually, i dont have the adress, and it sems to me that we'll never have it if there really is such, but this came to my mind when i read the posts on the plate-numbers-in-Oregon polemica. I would appreciate any kind of opinions on this specific topic, not the ones saying> Well, if there's ftp acces to /etc/passwd, and this is not shadowed, bla, bla, bla. I mean real opinions... __ || ==== 'If you can dream of it | |__ then you can manage it' | |-.\ |__| \\ clopez at nayar.uan.mx || || ======__| ________||__ /____________\ Carlos L. Mariscal From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 16 19:39:19 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:39:19 +0800 Subject: The Transparency Of Cyber-Nitrate In-Reply-To: <9608161725.AA07803@anon.penet.fi> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [From: Rich Graves ] [To: The honourable Vyshinsky ] [Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com] On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Skipper's Hammer wrote: > Liar. Either post your entire copy to alt.revisionism or prove yourself > a lying capitali$t bastard who's jealous about Zuendel because you are a > J$wish preppie homo$exual righti$(t) ri(c)h pig. OK. I'm a lying capitali$t bastard who's jealous about Zuendel because I am a J$wish preppie homo$exual righti$(t) ri(c)h pig. You can quote me on that. Stop pretending to be Detweiler. You're nowhere near as interesting. Welcome to my cypherpunks killfile. - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMhUFJJNcNyVVy0jxAQE5NAH/ZRks2CBTqWpPrJiHnBDa12QSE0qXDn8T HqrFdgzUPg+9TfkI6e5FlQOPTQrYZKv6OQVdL4LpmfvE9+9P8VzDTQ== =fDi1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Scottauge at aol.com Fri Aug 16 19:44:37 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:44:37 +0800 Subject: $10K offer if you can break the code Message-ID: <960816191509_387010260@emout12.mail.aol.com> MMMmmmm.... Money! > Big Brother is reading your e-mail. The POUCH will protect you. > Win $10,000 in our break the code contest. No purchase necessary. > Free software. See web page http://www.flagler.com/security.html > From eb at comsec.com Fri Aug 16 19:59:45 1996 From: eb at comsec.com (Eric Blossom) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:59:45 +0800 Subject: Triple DES Encryption Now Available For Telephone Privacy Protection Message-ID: <199608162204.PAA19709@comsec.com> Communication Security Corporation For More Information: Eric Blossom (707) 577-0409 Press Contact: Terri Thatcher (408) 265-7703 Triple DES Encryption Now Available For Telephone Privacy Protection Santa Rosa, Calif., August 16, 1996, -- The Communication Security Corporation today announced availability of the CS8191. The first telephone security device built using uncompromised cryptography, based on 168--bit key triple DES. Triple DES encryption technology provides an uncompromised level of security (72 quadrillion times stronger against a brute force attack) than products based on the US Data Encryption Standard (single DES). In addition, unlike the government's "Clipper" proposal, the CS8191 does not reveal or "escrow" the encryption keys with third parties. The CS8191 has been designed to work with conventional analog telephone systems (POTS). The unit connects between your telephone and the wall. In 'clear' mode, your telephone continues to work as it normally does. Pressing the 'go secure' button encrypts conversations. Communication Security has also incorporated a leading-edge speech coder. Voice clarity is undisturbed whether the system is in 'secure' or 'clear' mode. With many of today's standard technologies, anyone can gain access to our most private of conversations. The Communication Security Corporation dedicates their resources to addressing the increasing need for private, secure voice communication devices. The introduction of the CS8191 paves the way for research and development for additional communication security devices for cell phones, modems, fax machines and computers. For more information on the CS8191, please contact the Communication Security Corporation, 1275 Fourth St. Suite 194, Santa Rosa, CA 95404, Tel: (707) 577-0409 Fax: (707) 577-0413, info at comsec.com. ### From mpd at netcom.com Fri Aug 16 20:23:41 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:23:41 +0800 Subject: $10K offer if you can break the code In-Reply-To: <960816191509_387010260@emout12.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199608170104.SAA14968@netcom13.netcom.com> > MMMmmmm.... Money! Don't cash the check yet. It's security by obscurity using the highest quality "unpublished algorithms" and up to a 48 byte key phrase. He's only willing to send out the free version by return snail mail - no Net access. Any crack you submit must also decrypt other messages they will feed it, must be completely documented, and any prize awards are at their sole descretion. He's also selling the high performance "9600 Baud" version for $100. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Fri Aug 16 20:27:11 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:27:11 +0800 Subject: c|net reports UK partial usenet ban Message-ID: <01I8CU97BQUK9JD8SE@mbcl.rutgers.edu> A more precise URL is http://www.cnet.com/Content/News/Files/0,16,2181,00.html. There's a link to a copy of the original letter. It looks like the UK police are coming down with delusions of grandeur; they want to eliminate the newsgroups in question from the Internet/Usenet period, not just block them from the UK. People may want to look out for cancel messages for these groups coming from the UK, for instance, and ignore the lot of them. -Allen From: IN%"m5 at vail.tivoli.com" "Mike McNally" 16-AUG-1996 20:07:15.62 To: IN%"cypherpunks at toad.com" CC: Subj: c|net reports UK partial usenet ban UK Metropolitan Police Service bans smutty newsgroups. See it all at . ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 16 20:48:14 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:48:14 +0800 Subject: FCC_ups Message-ID: <199608170022.RAA29008@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:31 AM 8/17/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> 8-10-96. WaPo: >> "Phone Service Via the Internet May Slash Rates." [deleted] >This kind of report is often confusing and more often misleading. >Most of the internet still runs on "the infrastructure provided by >the giants of the telecommunications industry, who according to the report >would cease to exist after some time". > >Bigbells and Babybells provide cheap [flat rate local calls] and >expensive long-distance calls. They make most of their money on the >later. This money goes into development and maintainance of their >infrastructure. Once they loose these profits 1. They won't be able >to provide cheap local-calls and/or 2. They would go bankrupt and shut the >entire network which is used by many to connect to the internet. > >This is complex problem and the only solution I see to it is a >different pricing policy. [Prolly a differential pricing system might fit >the scenario but I don't have much idea about that] > >First flat rates would have to go out. >If Alice uses her phone for 5 hrs in month and pay _x_ dollars and Bob uses >his for 100 hrs and pays _x_ dollars, then Alice is subsidising Bob, which >is not really ethical. Everyone should pay for the amount of bandwith >one is using. I'm afraid you're promoting what I consider a rather old (and, now, odd) way to look at it. Unlike old mechanical telephone switches, the new hardware does not "wear out" and thus a person who uses it more doesn't cost the phoneco any more bucks. If that's the case, I don't see the logic in charging a person more for greater use. The only remaining argument for charging for use is that if everybody were to start using the telephone 3 hours per day, it is possible the switches would have to be upgraded to allow more simultaneous connects. However, this is unlikely to happen, and as I understand it electronic switches have plenty of capacity for current needs and substantially more. There's a good reason that Internet-connect traffic won't substantially impact telephone network limits: My impression from my local ISP is that peak times for him are between 9pm and 11 pm. This is a time which relatively small numbers of voice calls are made, certainly compared with the peak times during the day for business calling. Because telephone networks are designed to meet peak usage needs, there is plenty of unused capacity at other times. This is connect capacity that would otherwise be "wasted." In other words, telephone switch capacity is starting to be more efficiently used, looked at on a 24-hour basis. This costs the phoneco not a penny more, so they have no reason to charge more for it. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 16 20:54:05 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:54:05 +0800 Subject: Protecting floating datahavens? Message-ID: <199608170000.RAA08637@toad.com> At 03:36 AM 8/16/96 -0700, William Knowles wrote: >Now this is a completely doable concept, and likely more realistic >than the Oceania project, Oceania was perfectly doable, if you're cynical about its objectives :-) It did great T-Shirts, got people to pay for newsletters, and even got enough donations to get an architect to build a cool model while keeping its head promoters in the Floating-Country-Promotion business. One of the things that inspired people to believe in them is that there's a floating hotel that used to hang out in the South Pacific, though it may be in the Caribbean by now, which cost something like $20M for a 200-room hotel. The Oceania folks designed a billion-dollar exravaganza that would be far more affordable per resident, but it's a much bigger, and unrealistic, risk. The basic risks with such things are: 1) Getting governments to agree to leave you alone. If you're doing a high-visibility call-yourself-a-country approach, and your country doesn't include Real Above-Sea-Level Dirt, you're really gambling on whether the UN and big countries will recognize you. If you're just calling yourself a big houseboat, and don't upset the US Drug-Confiscation Pirates too much, you don't need to care as much about this one. 2) Getting governments and other pirates to actually leave you alone. The Republic of Minerva, back in the 70s, had real dirt (or at least coral reefs, and met the UN 1-foot-above-high-tide standards) near Fiji, but the Kingdom of Tonga invaded them after about six months. Calling yourself a country is one way to attract adverse attention, but also has some protection. Allowing people to use politically incorrect substances is another, and if you're allowing politically incorrect data, you're inviting governments to plant child-terrorist narco-pornography to justify "police actions" against you. 3) Making it work financially, for the proprietors and tenants/co-owners. Free-market enthusiasts generally assume this is doable, if the upfront/interest costs of the place aren't really prohibitive. 4) Convincing investors that you're safe enough on 1) and 2) that they're willing to risk the money to build/buy a country and hope it stays independent long enough to make a profit. With Oceania, it would have made much more sense to raise $25M, which is doable, to buy the floating hotel and declare independence. (Either one really rich guy, or a hundred yuppies of the type that buy quarter-million-dollar condos in Maui will do.) Raising a billion dollars against that risk isn't. Raising a million for an oil rig, if they're that cheap, is also doable, though the politics for something anchored are different from a ship. There's also a Laissez-Faire City project, which proposes to lease a 10-mile-square chunk of land to rent from any cooperative third-world government for 50 years or so with a deal of local autonomy. It's much less threatening to the Old World Order than calling yourself a country, and you've got a government which is making money by leaving you alone that at least discourages the most likely invaders (itself, and the US) without having to provide much national defense. Who knows, maybe they'll actually do something, and rent a chunk of Costa Rica or Somaliland or whatever. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 16 20:59:16 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:59:16 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches Message-ID: At 8:58 PM 8/16/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >TIm, a layer of tin foil is not the same as a professionally installed >and maintained Faraday cage. > >I can envision circulating currents on the tinfoil. Ie, ground loop type >of situation. > >All imaging is depenmdant upon the target having some radiating >characteristic. If the gun shields a gun-shaped peice of the body from >radiating in millimeter waves, you can build a gun detector. There's no other way to say this: you simply don't know what you're talking about. Your protestations to the contrary, reconstruction of an image from point sources of leakage is essentially impossible ("the phase problem"). Analyze the solutions for sources behind screens. (A simple model is to analyze the radiation patterns one one side of conducting plate, with various sources on the other side.) For an intuitively visualizable model, consider a pattern of some sort (like a gun) behind a screen, with light leaking around the edges. (The less light leaks, the more the example is similar to the case of deliberate shielding of RF sources, but even the simple example here makes the point.) This is what crystallographers and DNA analysts call "the phase problem." Spatial frequency (pattern) information is indeterminate. If you still believe what you say, that a gun can be imaged even when behind a conducting screen, based solely on leakage around the edges (or similar small leaks), I challenge you to produce a paper which demonstrates this, or, even better, an actual demonstration. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 16 21:48:47 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 12:48:47 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: At 8:12 PM 8/16/96, Bart Croughs wrote: >I have thought a bit more about the question I asked a couple of days ago: >how can you proof that investment of American capital abroad wouldn't >lower the standard of living in the US? So far, I didn't receive a >convincing answer to this question. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I may >have a proof. It's a so-called 'reductio ad absurdum'. It goes like this: ...["proof" elided]... (By the way, Bart, the verb form is "prove," the noun form is "proof") Others have shown how meaningless your repeated calls for a proof are, as so many assumptions must be carefully spelled out. To give an example of how hard the situation is to analyze, consider the computer and chip industries. (If you argue that your "theorem" is for nations in the aggregate, and not any particular companies or even industries, then I will maintain that my example holds pretty much true for automobiles, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, and so on._ The computer and chip industries move certain investments abroad, to Malaysia, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Mexico, and so forth. But by moving these investments abroad, they believe their net market size, profitability, shareholder value, etc., will be enhanced. Else they wouldn't do it. Multiply this by all the industries.... Now, would "the economy" be "better off" if Intel, say, had not moved assembly operations to Malaysia in the 1970s? Perhaps Intel would now be bankrupt and gone, as so many of its rivals of the time are now gone and barely remembered. You see the problem? Who can say what "better off" is, given that we can't run history down alternate paths as an experiment. Your one-track mind is truly astounding. We've had kooks and oddballs on the list before, but never one who has written a dozen or more posts asking the same ill-phrased question over and over again. Give it up. Move on to something else. Or at least take your problem to another list. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From hallam at ai.mit.edu Fri Aug 16 22:40:14 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:40:14 +0800 Subject: Lunch with Bill, anyone? In-Reply-To: <4v23s1$574@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <32153700.41C6@ai.mit.edu> John C. Randolph wrote: > Does Microsquish *know* any industry luminaries? I mean, Cutler > used to be one, but he's pretty burnt out, if Windoze NT is any > indication. Butler Lampson and Rashid are both pretty hot. Cutler got NT to a workable state considerably faster than he got VMS to one. There are many computer companies that are full of Bozos, Microsoft isn't one of them. Most of the people griping about Microsoft can't code any better. I'm interested that Navigator 3b6 crashes several times daily while Internet Explorer has yet to crash on me. I couldn't care less about fancy features, at this stage I want a browser that is reliable - like they used to be. Phill From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Aug 16 22:48:28 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:48:28 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches (fwd) Message-ID: <199608170314.WAA11946@einstein> Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:34:44 -0400 (EDT) > From: Black Unicorn > Subject: Re: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches (fwd) > > Simple actualy. The police don't need a warrant to collect such information > > because it is in the public domain (ie not private and therefor requiring > > a search warrant and probable cause). Therefore anybody (not just cops) > > can pick it up. > > This argument breaks down when one looks at the difference between state > action and private action. Constitutionaly, if we are discussing search warrants there is no difference. The 4th gives the courts no latitude on how to treat police and 'normal' citizens. They must be treated equaly. > Were one to follow this logic, it would come to pass that citizens could > get warants to search neighbor's residences. Since when are police any different than citizens? Where are the police mentioned in the Constitution? (hint: their not) If we are speaking of Constitutional issues police have no powers that a ordinary citizen doesn't. The Constitution has many directives to Courts about what they may do and how they may do it. It at no point covers police other than the section dealing with treasury enforcement. I would contend that citizens have exactly the same rights and privileges as police. In fact if the general citizenry is prohibited something (eg own a fully auto gun) then the police also are prohibited from it. I would further hold that if it is illegal for me to carry a gun on my hip then a police officer should also be prohibited. The whole concept of 'citizens arrest' is based on this Constitutional premise. It has been eroded over the years because it is a clear threat to those who have a profit to make off our government and their mis-use of it. Under some conditions they are allowed exactly this. Last year I had a friend go through a divorce. As part of the agreement he was to retain possession of some guns and other memorabilia. The wife refused to let the husband come onto the property or contact their son. He was placed under a bond to that effect. When he went to the judge my friend was allowed to search the property for those items. He was advised that if he met any resistance to contact the Sheriff's office who would then arrest the wife for contempt of court. It is up to the court, not the police, to decide who is an officer of the court and why. The judge was able to specificaly list the items and had probable cause in that the material was not the wifes but rather the husbands. To allow her to keep them would constitute state sanctioned theft. The court could not use a police officer because they are not empowered to enforce civil decree's. Refusal to abide by the civil decree would constitute a criminal act and the court could then require the police to intercede. The 4th is a directive to courts on when they may issue search warrants. Who executes them is covered (via the 9th and 10th) by state and local law (per extension by the 14th). ARTICLE IV. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. > > It is becoming more and more popular for governments to limit the ability > > of scanners and other such detectors to pick up information supposedly > > to protect privacy. The above states that if it is eminating from the > > residence (and by extension person) and is picked up off their property, > > perhaps on or in public space then it is fair game. > > Fair game for law enforcement use and can be presented in court, yes. But police have no Constitutional right to search anything, courts do. In no way can the Constitution be honestly extended to allow police the right to search anyone until directed by a court. > And, I might add, there is a different standard for voice communications > however carried. The heat from a indoor pot garden is a different matter, > and incidently, the matter on which the question was presented. I have to disagree. The issue is not what is being carried on the medium but rather can I measure that medium without a warrant if I am a officer of the court or empowered by law as the police. Implicit in this question is the fact that my goal is to gather information to be presented to a court for legal action against the party being monitored. This was a strawman that the court fell for, the defence attorney didn't understand the technology either. To argue that if I measure some quantity and no modulation is present I may present that as evidence, but if modulation is present then I need a warrant to even measure it is ludicrous and screams 'alterior motive'. I would say that the argument of the state of the light (ie on/off) is modulation and therefore may be extended to limit unwarranted measurement. So, all I need to do is to modulate the IR lamps with a commen radio. Then they can watch all they want with cameras and such. No warrant, no evidence. Do you figure X-10 modulation would qualify? Wouldn't the on/off caused by the AC power qualify as modulation of the light? > > States such as N. Carolina (per extension via the 14th) should be > > prohibited from regulating or otherwise controlling possesion and use > > of radar detectors (in this case) which are currently illegal for > > private persons to operate. > > There is the additional matter of the obstruction of justice issues.. Obstruction of what justice? The goal is to keep the speed down so people are not killed. It is NOT to give the police a means to gather operating funds. If the police were honest in this pursuit they would sit on the side of the road radaring to their hearts content as long as their lights were on indicating they were actively on duty while everyone else zoomed along listening to their detectors buzz. Yes, we would have much less money from tickets but we would have many more living people paying taxes as well. I also suspect that if this were implimented it would take many fewer police to regulate traffic further reducing the needs for money. The law was specificaly and openly put in place because the radar detector decreased the chances of the police from catching and ticketing you, somewhat different than enforcing public safety. The police in a democratic society should never be allowed to skulk around monitoring the populace. Cops hiding in the bushes and other such tactics are not law enforcement but rather state sanctioned theft. Gives 'highwayman' a whole new slant. The argument that by allowing such activity the police are prohibited from catching criminals ignores the fact that the police are firstly enforced with public safety. Their primary job is to PREVENT the incident within their operating parameters and only secondarily to apprehend participants after the fact. Again, a strawman the courts and lots of others have swallowed. > >I< tend to agree with you, but I see the arguments on the other side as > well. I also see the other side, I believe the Constitutional approach that I advocate can meet and defeat any argument they may present PROVIDED the court does not have a alterior motive of sustaining the status quo but rather an open goal of enforcing the Constitution for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I believe that is a rare find indeed. Don't get me wrong. I estimate the chance of my success to win support, let alone actualy getting any of it implimented, as pretty close to nil. But if I don't discuss it on public forums such as this then who else will? > > If the police don't need a warrant to > > collect information then citizens are equaly able to recieve that > > information as well. > > How EXACTLY does this follow? Because courts, not police are empowered to search. Constitutionaly a police officer may detain you (by local law) but he may NOT search you until presented to a magistrate. This is what was meant by 'fair and speedy trial'. > > Since the above ruling states that as long as the > > emissions are eminating from the site and the reception takes place > > other than at the site (in this case, being inside the police car) > > , perhaps along a public highway, then no privacy is involved. This > > means that citizens have a right, by extension, to know when they are > > being beamed by radar. > > Again, you need to distinguish law enforcement purposes and private > purposes. Constitutionaly there is no distinction. Police are citizens also. > > This same chain of logic can be extended to cell phones and such as > > well. > > And yet you need a warrant to intercept cell phone conversation. Exactly, and by extension you should need a warrant to monitor ANY other form of EM radiation when acting as a officer of the court collecting information or evidence relating to possible or existing proceedings. > > This connection is even clearer when one realizes that the only difference > > between IR and your cell phone eminations is frequency. The intermediate > > vector boson in both cases is a photon. > > And the fact that cellphones carry voice communications. Is irrelevant. You can't know that fact without first measuring the medium. Sorta defeats the whole purpose. You have to measure it to determine if you can measure it, stupid or premeditated misrepresentation. > > It is similar to arresting somebody for wearing a blue shirt but letting > > the person wearing the red shirt go free. > > ANd having the blue shirt say "kill the president" maybe would even out > your example. How? It certainly raises the spectre of 'strawman'. Attempting to change the subject to 'freedom of speech' is not a respectable tactic. What is on the shirt is irrelevant. > > The rationale being that since > > the frequency of the blue shirt is higher it is fundamentaly different > > then the red shirt. > > No, the rational being that the blue shirt carries a communication more > complicated than a simple speed reading, or heat emmission. But how do you determine that without first measuring it? I don't think that 'probable cause' or 'oath or affirmation' were meant to include 'gut feeling'. Jim Choate From vznuri at netcom.com Fri Aug 16 23:08:53 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 14:08:53 +0800 Subject: "world communications being monitored" Message-ID: <199608170344.UAA05092@netcom22.netcom.com> ------- Forwarded Message From: "Mat Guthrie" To: mmlist-l at newciv.org Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:14:39 +0000 Subject: All Int' Communications Are Monitored - - -> SearchNet's snetnews Mailing List Hi there all, I heard an amazing news report on the radio today, that confirmed what I've heard and suspected for a long time - all international communications *are* continually being monitored!! The report was on "The World at One" news report on BBC Radio 4 - about as respected, reliable and informative a source as any mainstream media is ever likely to be. The feature spoke about a book that's come out in New Zealand called "Secret Power" by Nicky Hager, that has been endorsed by the former (?) Prime Minister of New Zealand himself. It supposedly goes into great detail about an international agreement called "Echelon" of which the US, UK, France, New Zealand, Australia and several other nations are all participants. According to Nicky Hager - who was interviewed on the program - a system of monitoring stations have been set up in various countries in the world that continually monitor ALL fax, email, telephone and satellite communications etc, "sniffing" for keywords using super computers. When these key words are identified the information is automatically logged and according to Hager, sent directly to the US intelligence services. Now whilst many of us have undoubtedly come across this sort of information before and undoubtedly many of us have probably scoffed at such ascertions as merely impossible and blatantly paranoid, something very significant sets this report apart. Before the book was published, Hager went with his manuscript to the New Zealand Prime Minister who had been responsible for signing NZ up to the agreement (I got the impression that he is no longer in power). Anyway, the PM was so shocked by the revelations that the book contained, that he has written the forward to the book. Supposedly he says that he had no idea of the true nature of the agreement and the powers which it bestowed on the intelligence services and is obviously trying to distance himself from the storm that's beginning to brew up about it. Maybe he's just covering his arse or maybe he was just another puppet head of government who wasn't properly informed about what was really taking place in his own country, but either way, the fact that he has got involved with the book adds considerable credibility to it's claims. Those of you who have often said that such wide-scale monitoring is "obviously impossible" might be wise to re-evaluate your positions! Anyway, there was no further report on the BBC Radio 4 evening news and nothing about it on TV, so maybe that's all we're hear about it over here in the UK - and maybe even less for you lot in the good old US of A. The book isn't in print over here, so needless to say, I'll be contacting a book seller over in New Zealand to see if I can get myself a copy and I'll keep you informed. If anyone out there in NZ could give me a phone number of a sizeable book shop over there, I'd really appreciate it and if anyone else has any info on this, please pass it on. I wonder if "Secret Power" is now on their keyword list? If it is then - "Hi there big bro'. I hope you're all having a nice day!" Take care out there, See ya Mat ================================================ WHAT'S THE FUTURE GOT IN STORE FOR MANKIND??? For a different perspective on: Global Trends, The Environment, Surveillance Technologies, Current Events and Prophecy, Visit: http://homepages.enterprise.net/matguthrie/ THIS PAGE IS CURRENTLY UNDER CONSTRUCTION =============================================== He who is conscious of danger creates peace for himself; he who takes things lightly creates his own downfall. I Ching From webmaster at www.whore.com Fri Aug 16 23:10:07 1996 From: webmaster at www.whore.com (webmaster at www.whore.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 14:10:07 +0800 Subject: Greetings from Whore.com Message-ID: <1371882871-6745844@caroline.com> Greetings! This is an automated response from http://www.whore.com and�http://www.slut.com. You indicated you wanted to receive email from one of our sluts. If this is NOT true, please reply to this email and type 'cancel slut #8927' in the body of the message. I hope you DO want to receive email, because Asia just turned 21 and wants to meet you. From vznuri at netcom.com Fri Aug 16 23:10:18 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 14:10:18 +0800 Subject: forthcoming book on privacy Message-ID: <199608170342.UAA04850@netcom22.netcom.com> ------- Forwarded Message From: Phil Agre To: rre at weber.ucsd.edu Subject: New Privacy Book =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help at weber.ucsd.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 15:03:12 EST From: Computer Privacy Digest Moderator Computer Privacy Digest Thu, 08 Aug 96 Volume 9 : Issue: 009 - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 08 Aug 1996 10:12:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Gellman Subject: New Privacy Book There is a new book on privacy due out momentarily. The publisher's announcement follows. Bob The Michie Company Introduces Data Privacy Law: A Study of United States Data Protection by Paul M. Schwartz and Joel R. Reidenberg Data Privacy Law: A Study of United States Data Protection is the first book to analyze comprehensively U.S. fair information practices law as it pertains to data protection issues in both the public and private sectors. Data Privacy Law was underwritten by the European Commission in preparation for the issuance of its Directive 95/46/EC (October 24, 1995) on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data. The book compares coherently the fair information practices of the United States with principles common to divergent legal systems. Data Privacy Law has important practical applications and will help companies that employ transborder telecommunications, conduct interjurisdictional financial transactions, or advertise across borders to define their own data protection strategies to ensure that expectations of fair information practices are met. The book will assist lawyers, government regulators and scholars to understand data flows in both the public and private sectors. Author Paul M. Schwartz, Professor of Law at the University of Arkansas School of Law (Fayetteville), has been a guest professor at the University of Nantes, a Fulbright Senior Lecturer at the Goethe University?s Research Center for Data Protection, and a Research Fellow of the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation and of the Harry Guggenheim Foundation. He has provided advice and testimony to governmental bodies in the United States and Europe. At present, he serves as Special Advisor to a study of health care applications of the National Information Infrastructure carried out by the National Academy of Science's National Research Council. Author Joel R. Reidenberg is Associate Professor of Law at Fordham University School of Law. He serves as chair of the Section on Computers and Law of the Association of American Law Schools and is a Fellow of the Cyberspace Law Institute. Formerly, he practiced in the Washington, D.C. office of Debevoise & Plimpton, where he worked with the international telecommunications group on European telecommunications liberalization and competition law issues, data protection regulation, and intellectual property issues. Professor Reidenberg served as an advisor to the U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment and has testified on information privacy before various government bodies. Both authors have written and lectured extensively on privacy and information technology law. Priced at $90.00, this book will be a welcome resource for policy makers, legal practitioners and scholars grappling with data protection issues. Michie is a part of LEXIS*-NEXIS* and publishes annotated state codes for 31 states and the District of Columbia, more than 700 titles covering national and state law topics, the Michie?s Law on Disc CD-ROM research system for 36 states, and a growing number of ?practice? CD-ROM titles. A division of Reed Elsevier, Inc., and a member of the Reed Elsevier plc group, one of the world?s leading publishing and information businesses, Michie combines almost two centuries of traditional legal publishing with leading-edge information technology. - - -- Data Privacy Law by Paul M. Schwartz and Joel R. Reidenberg $90.00 Order Number: 67180-10 For more information or to order, call Michie toll-free at 800-562-1197. Visit Michie's web site at http://www.michie.com. - - ------------------------------ End of Computer Privacy Digest V9 #009 ****************************** - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message From blane at aa.net Fri Aug 16 23:50:54 1996 From: blane at aa.net (Brian C. Lane) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 14:50:54 +0800 Subject: $10K offer if you can break the code In-Reply-To: <199608170104.SAA14968@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: <32154c32.5692262@mail.aa.net> On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 18:04:33 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >> MMMmmmm.... Money! > >Don't cash the check yet. It's security by obscurity using the >highest quality "unpublished algorithms" and up to a 48 byte >key phrase. > >He's only willing to send out the free version by return snail >mail - no Net access. Any crack you submit must also decrypt >other messages they will feed it, must be completely documented, >and any prize awards are at their sole descretion. > >He's also selling the high performance "9600 Baud" version for >$100. Looks like a crock to me. He gives no email address to contact him with, no business name, and it sounds like an extremely user un-friendly program. People are definatly better off using PGP. I'd bet that his unpublished algorithm is an XOR with the key, and that it could be broken pretty easily. I'd also be that there is no $10,000 reward. People like this guy give cryptography a bad name. They target people who don't know much and are susceptible to his claims and who would be better off using PGP or ViaCrypt. What can we do to dispute his claims? Has anyone gotten a copy of his sample message yet? Brian ------- -------------------- ------- "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice" - B. Goldwater ============== 11 99 3D DB 63 4D 0B 22 15 DC 5A 12 71 DE EE 36 ============ From shamrock at netcom.com Fri Aug 16 23:57:20 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 14:57:20 +0800 Subject: NT remailer Message-ID: At 21:08 8/16/96, rednax wrote: >Speaking of NT, I downloaded the full version of msie 3.0 the other day but >when I tried installing it, an error message came up saying that it requires >a Win95 or WinNT4.0 build of 1381 or higher. I am currently running NT 4.0b >that has a build of 1314, does anyone know of where is the upgrade or >service packs(if available)? I have tried looking around microsoft.com, but >they neither provided any detail nor did they provide an e-mail. USENET? Just a thought, -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 17 00:15:10 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:15:10 +0800 Subject: key escrow idea from David Staelin of MIT Lincoln Labs Message-ID: <199608170506.WAA17213@toad.com> Matt Blaze posted Ron Rivest's summary of Dave Staelin's suggestion for a different type of Government Access to Keys (GAK) policy, and Rivest's proposed variant and analysis, and there's been some discussion on the Cypherpunks list, including the usual "GAK is evil, period", plus commentary on the variations. Below I suggest a variant on Ron's variant that's less evil, though less desireable to the government than Ron's. R(S)>Here is Staelin's idea: R(S)> (1) You can use any crypto you want, but you must keep a record R(S)> of the crypto keys you used. R(S)> (2) The government can ask for the crypto keys later, if they have R(S)> a court order, just as they can ask for any of your other papers R(S)> or documents. You must give the key(s) to them, just as you R(S)> must turn over your private papers in such a situation. For technical reasons, this is a non-starter. Storing keys requires memory, and many practical cryptosystems need to generate large numbers of keys, or run in environments such as cellphones and password-calculators that don't _have_ any available memory. Storing lots of keys implies a high probability of losing lots of keys, and Matt's talked about the difficulty of storing keys securely. Non-technically, as was discussed, US citizens aren't required to keep personal papers or documents, though businesses are required to keep some tax and rule-compliance records, and taxpayers who want to claim deductions need to keep relevant records. Ron's trusted third party variant: R>In a variant of Staelin's proposal (my twist) you could append to each R>encrypted message an encrypted form of the message key. The R>encryption could be with the public-key of a trusted third party who R>will not (and legally may not) reveal the message key without R>notifying you first (or ensuring that you have been appropriately R>served with the corresponding warrant). For example, the ACLU might Stewart's untrusted first party variants: Why a trusted _third_ party? I don't trust third parties with my calls. Have the sender generate, and keep, a Master Key, and append the session key encrypted with the Master Key. As with Staelin's method, the government can subpoena or warrant the master key. (So you can call it a Self-Incrimination Key if you like.) If you use a public key for the SIK, there's the time and space required to do public-key encryption, but the session keys for each session can be decrypted separately by the sender, and verified by the court, without needing to turn over the private key. If you use a secret key for the SIK, it's fast and small, though the SIK needs to be protected and one subpoena decrypts all conversations made with the key (as does a warrant seizing the phone.) (It's basically Clipper with the user instead of NSA generating master keys, and the user instead of the Friends Of The NSA storing them.) An intermediate is to use a secret SIK for a small-to-medium number of sessions, and public-key Master SIK used to generate an encrypted SIK sent with each message as well as the SIK-encrypted session key. It's still bulky, like the full public-key version, but not as slow, since you can generate and encrypt secret-SIK keys off-line. As with Staelin's proposal, mine also doesn't give the government real-time access, only after-the-fact access, but it doesn't have most of the technical difficulties of secure, reliable used-key storage (hmmm - sounds kind of like a sharps-box for used needles :-) R>CONCLUSION R>The fundamental idea is to give the government a right to access R>encrypted communication in return for a guarantee that access may not R>be obtained until there is BOTH proper legal authorization AND proper R>prior notice to (at least one of) the communicants. R>Is this workable?? As Matt says: M>While Ron's twist decreases some of the burden on the user it M>eliminates the main benefit of the Staelin proposal - that one M>cannot obtain cleartext without the knowledge of at least one party. Agreed - while Ron's proposal asserts that the TTP is forbidden to reveal the key to the government without also telling the owner, current government wiretap laws often require just the opposite, and even if the government initially changed their policy to require TTPs to tell users, they could rapidly change back. The only way to guarantee that prior notice (or post-access notice) is for the protocol to require the user's participation, which inherently makes it non-real-time and gives the user the ability to refuse (at whatever cost.) Also, "to give the government a right to access" implies that they don't have that right today (which I agree with but Louis Freeh doesn't), and that we _should_ give them that right when we don't have to (which Dorothy Denning would agree with but I don't) and that a Trusted Government Guarantee (TGG) is a good enough payment in return. And if you retain the word "voluntary", as used by Ron, you need to convince a Bad Guy or an Innocent Guy to believe a TGG or TTP - Bad Guys won't, and Innocent Guys, as Ed Meese said, "usually aren't suspects", so it's still no-win for the government. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From nobody at replay.com Sat Aug 17 00:19:07 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:19:07 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608170503.HAA09053@basement.replay.com> At 11:05 PM 8/16/96 -0400, you wrote: >There are many computer companies that are full of Bozos, >Microsoft isn't one of them. Most of the people griping about >Microsoft can't code any better. Gee Phill, as I'm preparing to leave MS after 6 years, I have to disagree with you. Mediocrity and bureaucracy have eatten away at a lot of the core of the company. It is entirely marketing driven now, and the coders have definitely gone down hill since I first started in Apps. The "bozo" factor has steadily increased. Only those new hires without a sense of history think it's a real cool place to work. And, a few egocentric folks totally tripped on power and greed. (Apologies to any MSofties on the list I don't know personally.) Talk to HR about the turnover of people with 5.5 to 8 years under their belts who are bailing with their stock options because it ain't a fun place to work anymore. Testers, developers, UE, you name it. I can gripe because I was there. I never seem to recall seeing your name on any internal e-mail. Oh yeah, this is coming through a remailer, because I'm reading the list at work. And I doubt BillG would appreciate my opinions being sent out over MS resources. From blane at aa.net Sat Aug 17 00:20:34 1996 From: blane at aa.net (Brian C. Lane) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:20:34 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens Message-ID: <32155657.53661@mail.aa.net> With all the recent talk about converted oil-rig DataHavens floating around the oceans, fending off pirates, and Low-Orbit satellite communications, I had a thought. How about an orbiting DataHaven. No jurisdiction to bother with, extremely difficult to get to (except by large governments...). You could put together a couple of Linux boxes with a RAID system, some backups and a large solar panel and have a very nice, secure DataHaven. Granted, you wouldn't have all the fun of floating around the south pacific fending off pirates and navies who are after your data, but it would work. Might even be cheaper than outfitting the oil-ring with the rate that they are tossing satellites into space. If the HAM radio community can get a satellite into space, why not the Cypherpunks/Linux communities? Brian ------- -------------------- ------- "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice" - B. Goldwater ============== 11 99 3D DB 63 4D 0B 22 15 DC 5A 12 71 DE EE 36 ============ From jgrasty at gate.net Sat Aug 17 00:40:11 1996 From: jgrasty at gate.net (Joey Grasty) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:40:11 +0800 Subject: South Florida Cypherpunks Meeting Reminder Message-ID: <199608170542.BAA46994@osceola.gate.net> Y'all: The South Florida Cypherpunks will meet at Hops Grill & Bar in Boynton Beach, FL on Saturday, August 17 at 2:00 PM. As always, our meeting place is at a microbrewery, and this one has some very fine brews. Jim Ray will show off his Snake Oil bottle, signed by Phil Zimmermann, who wrote PGP. I will also hand out copies of my WinSock Remailer to anyone who wants to check it out. Other than that, we have no agenda, other than discussing cypherpunkology and drinking some fine brews. Directions: Take I-95 to Boynton Beach Blvd and go west. When you get to Congress Ave., turn right (north) and go one stoplight until you get to Old Boynton Beach Blvd. Turn left (west) and go behind Longhorn Steakhouse and turn right into the parking lot behind Longhorn Steakhouse. Hops is just north of Longhorn on Congress Ave. Hops Grill & Bar 545 N. Congress Ave. Boynton Beach, FL. In addition, the Cypherpunks Brewmaster, Jim Ray, is brewing up a special "cypherpunks summer dark" brew for the meeting. (I sampled some of the brew before bottling, and BBBUUURP! it was good.) We will enjoy his fine beer at my house following the meeting. I'll pass out maps to my house in Deerfield Beach for anyone who wants to go. Please send me a note if you plan to attend so that I can alert the restaurant on how many will attend. Send me your key and fingerprint for keysigning if it hasn't been signed by any cypherpunks before. Regards, -- Joey Grasty jgrasty at gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes] jgrasty at pts.mot.com [work -- designing pagers] "Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann PGP = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13 93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7 From brendon at home.net Sat Aug 17 01:10:37 1996 From: brendon at home.net (Brendon Macaraeg) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:10:37 +0800 Subject: proxy servers in Singapore Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960817031055.006c95e4@poptart.home.net> Did anyone else catch the AP wire story (it ran here in the SF Chronicle on Thursday) about the Singapore government cracking down on "undesirable" (e.g., sex smut, anti-govt. postings etc.) content on web sites, usenet etc. Their basically forcing, by law, Singapore ISPs to use proxy servers that contain the information that the govt. deems fit. Scary if you ask me. But then they have a govt. that acts like it's the management of Disneyland. "Have a nice ride!" -B ===================================================== Brendon Macaraeg http://www.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~brendonm Finger macaragb at acf2.nyu.edu for my PGP Public Key From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Aug 17 01:20:21 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:20:21 +0800 Subject: Triple DES Encryption Now Available For Telephone Privacy Protection Message-ID: <199608170629.XAA16771@mail.pacifier.com> At 03:04 PM 8/16/96 -0700, Eric Blossom wrote: >Communication Security Corporation > >For More Information: Eric Blossom (707) 577-0409 >Press Contact: Terri Thatcher (408) 265-7703 >Triple DES Encryption Now Available For Telephone Privacy Protection >Santa Rosa, Calif., August 16, 1996, -- The Communication Security >Corporation today announced availability of the CS8191. The first >telephone security device built using uncompromised cryptography, >based on 168--bit key triple DES. > >Triple DES encryption technology provides an uncompromised level of >security (72 quadrillion times stronger against a brute force attack) >than products based on the US Data Encryption Standard (single DES). >In addition, unlike the government's "Clipper" proposal, the CS8191 >does not reveal or "escrow" the encryption keys with third parties. So does this use that previously-announced NTT encryption chip? > >The CS8191 has been designed to work with conventional analog >telephone systems (POTS). The unit connects between your telephone >and the wall. In 'clear' mode, your telephone continues to work as it >normally does. Pressing the 'go secure' button encrypts >conversations. Communication Security has also incorporated a >leading-edge speech coder. Voice clarity is undisturbed whether the >system is in 'secure' or 'clear' mode. Is this some sort of standardized interface? Or are we in for the crypto equivalent of the Tower of Babel? Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From remailer at cypherpunks.ca Sat Aug 17 02:04:12 1996 From: remailer at cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 17:04:12 +0800 Subject: $10K offer if you can break the code Message-ID: <199608170652.XAA06550@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Hello! On 16 Aug 96 at 18:04, Mike wrote: > Don't cash the check yet. It's security by obscurity using the > highest quality "unpublished algorithms" and up to a 48 byte > key phrase. In Hong Kong, the Chinaman has the perfect way to describe a situation like this. He will say, "Hey friend, a roach this big won't simply jump in the streets for you to catch." > He's only willing to send out the free version by return snail > mail - no Net access...Snip..snip.... The guys behind PGPn123 tried the same snail mail stuff recently. The response was so bad they gave up after a while. Anyway, let's see what will happen in this case, but it's truly pathetic and ironic to think of snail mail in this cyberonic age. Later... Roach From DMiskell at envirolink.org Sat Aug 17 02:32:10 1996 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 17:32:10 +0800 Subject: Greetings from Whore.com Message-ID: <199608170706.DAA04875@envirolink.org> Someone please tell me that was a joke. It's almost a temptation. (falls down laughing and dies) Greetings from , Daniel. From wmono at Direct.CA Sat Aug 17 04:23:57 1996 From: wmono at Direct.CA (William Ono) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 19:23:57 +0800 Subject: Unix passwd-cracker online? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Carlos L. Mariscal may have written: > person has obtained a specific password by entering the desired > adresses'passord on a submnit form in a Web page. [deletia] > never have it if there really is such, but this came to my mind when i read > the posts on the plate-numbers-in-Oregon polemica. I would appreciate Somehow I have a hard time believing this to be true. I run crack, a password searching program that uses a dictionary as its base, on my /etc/passwd regularly to locate any users with easily guessed entries. With ultra fast crypt (UFC), the fastest crypt() replacement I can find, I can run through about 9700 passwords per second on this P6-150. Now, this is a back-of-the-envelope calculation: Assuming that the password can be one to eight characters of the following: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234567890!@#$%^&*() we find that we have a set of 72 characters. That gives us 72^8 + 72^7 + 72^6 + 72^5 + 72^4 + 72^3 + 72^2 + 72^1 or 732376025552520 possible combinations. At 9700 encryptions per second, it would take my system 2401 years to brute force -one- password to completion. That means that, most likely, if this 'locate password on demand' system existed, it would not work in real time, or in any time during any person's life. Moore's Law might shorten this timeframe considerably, but still not to any reasonable time frame. Continuing with my back-of-the-envelope estimate, we have the length of a crypt()'d password as being 13 characters. The password in plaintext has to follow, with a length of 8 characters. At a size of 732376025552520 * 21 characters, we would have a database of 15379896536602920 bytes, or 22565249 650mb CD-ROMs. That's for the passwords of one salt, without any formatting. Even if we could achieve a 95% compression rate on this data (it is text, after all) we would end up with 237528 CD-ROMs. Most likely my set of characters will be found to be incorrect, but anything that includes even a-z, A-Z, and 0-9 in one to eight character combinations most likely will not be a favourable crack target. Sorry, I don't think this is feasable, or possible. (Please do correct my calculations if errors are detected, especially if the corrected numbers make this possible.. it's getting late at night, and my mind is fogging up, so these calculations/estimates/wild guesses may be off more than usual. It does sound like an interesting project to undertake, if it were possible, but not on my equipment!) -- ** NOTE NEW KEY ** As of 08/28/95! Old key 0x2902B621 COMPROMISED! William Ono PGP Key: F3F716BD fingerprint = A8 0D B9 0F 40 A7 D6 64 B3 00 04 74 FD A7 12 C9 = fingerprint PGP-encrypted mail welcome! "640k ought to be enough for everybody." From aba at atlas.ex.ac.uk Sat Aug 17 06:09:12 1996 From: aba at atlas.ex.ac.uk (aba at atlas.ex.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:09:12 +0800 Subject: any SF cpunks around next Sat? Message-ID: <25922.9608170945@dart.dcs.exeter.ac.uk> Living in the UK, I really don't have that much idea where the people on the list I've gotten to know over the years live. I will be over in the San Francisco / Redwood City area next Saturday (24th), if anyone I know would like to meet, exchange keys, have a chat about crypto/cypherpunks stuff, mail me. Also if there is any regular cpunks meeting in this area which coincides, let me know! Adam -- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i At 13:23 16/08/96 -0700, James A. Donald wrote: >At 10:49 PM 8/14/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: >> I was trying to explain how incomes and prices happened to be >> lower in India, > >That was not an explanation, that was mystic word salad. > >It would be an explanation if wealth mysteriously rained >from the sky, rather than was produced by men. Huh? And why are we so grumpy today? >In fact what gets sent to the Indian campus is largely legacy >work, which is in large part precisely the work that requires >the closest contact with the customer, contact with actual >working conditions, and the like. Not necessarily: as an example of legacy work, consider the conversion of Cobol to 4GL. When you have a working program to emulate, you can do that without too much customer contact. It's in new software (where maybe the customer is herself not clear what she actually needs) that close contact is essential. Take another example: you have some old software, and you need to add a bell or whistle. Sure, you may need to run the modified software on site for testing, but often that too can be done from a remote terminal. And even if you do have to travel for the purpose, it still works out cheaper, since manpower costs are low in the 3rd world. >This seems to be a general practice, not just an Informix practice, for >in an article on "India's silicon valley" I read that the work done in >India was largely done on existing legacy apps, often in obsolete >languages and operating systems. Um, maybe you misread: why would an American company pay to have software written, that only runs on obsolete machines? Now, converting that software to run on a modern machine, that's altogether different -- you have to be able to read Cobol or Autocoder or whatever, but what you actually write would be based on modern tools. >This is of course the work that places the least amount of the >companies intellectual assets in India, and thus the work that >gives the Indian government the least power over Informix and its >activities. Informix could abandon the Indian campus and all >the intellectual assets on which it was working, and all the >physical assets located there, at any moment and not suffer any >serious loss or inconvenience. A sensible business decision: long-distance security is hard to achieve. But I doubt that it has anything to do with the power that the Indian government has (or hasn't) over Informix? >It is overwhelmingly clear that the question is simply who has the >power? Those who wish to hire peoples services in order to produce >wealth, or those who can command peoples services because they have >guns? Are you suggesting that Indian programmers come to work with like a chain gang, with armed government guard? You really must talk to some programmers from India, ask them if the government commands them this way, but do have some oxygen handy, or they might die laughing... >That is what makes most people in some places poor and most people >in some places affluent. Look, governments in the 3rd world are often stupid and corrupt -- no doubt that contributes to poverty, but that isn't the only reason. I'm sure one of the reasons is cultural: modern industrial societies require a high degree of training, discipline, whatever. Western societies needed centuries of misery to learn these, we're trying to do it faster, and hopefully be a bit more humane in the process. >> Could you please be more precise? In what way does the "power of >> the Indian government" intrude? >Presumably the same kind of reasons as caused foreign companies >to flee India the first time around. Other that Coke and IBM, which we already discussed, can you name one other? In the last years, lots of companies have opened shop here, including Coke and IBM. And even these two didn't flee: a new law was passed, they didn't want to comply, so they left or were asked to leave. In the case of Coke, I can understand the government not wanting to spend precious foreign exchange on sugared water in a country where there is a serious shortage of drinking water. Tim made the perfectly valid point that such decisions cost the country in reputation, but the Indian government doesn't mind loss of reputation in matters it firmly believes in, as in the current CTBT discussion. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From bart.croughs at tip.nl Sat Aug 17 08:47:37 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 23:47:37 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Re: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8C51.A4B84540@groningen12.pop.tip.nl> Scott McGuire wrote: > Bart Croughs wrote: > >>You haven't answered this question yet. I don't claim that the U.S. is >>worse off when US capital moves abroad. I only ask: how can you proof >>that the US isn't worse off when US capital moves abroad? >I recall you were interested in how the Austrians would answer this. I >think that they would object to the question because of their aversion to >aggregates. Some individuals are better off and some worse off. The >Austrians would deny that you can sum the results for individuals and get >a result for the economy as a whole. This is because of Austrian >subjectivity. >Assume that I move a programming job to India, and make the required >capital investments. >I am presumably better off (otherwise I wouldn't have moved the capital). >The worker I fire here in the US is worse off. >(Other effects you have mentioned go here). >Now, considering only me and the laid off worker, is this change overall >good or bad? To answer this, you would have to compare the value of my >gain to the value of the workers loss. But you can't. Value is >subjective. And, it only gets harder when you try to take into account >the other people affected. You are absolutely right here. I should have asked: 'how can you prove that *US workers* aren't worse off' instead of 'how can you prove that *the US* isn't worse off'. I abbreviated my question because I had repeated it already so often. My misstake. You seem to be saying that the US workers are worse off when American capital is invested abroad (something that most of the other posters have denied), but that American consumers and investors are better off, and that it's impossible to say what the overall effects on the standard of living of American citizens will be because you can't add and substract values of different people. This sounds reasonable (and indeed very Austrian), and you could be right, though I think there exists a proof that the overall effects on the standard of living of American citizens of investing abroad is positive. See one of my recent posts on the subject. Bart Croughs From David.K.Merriman at toad.com Sat Aug 17 09:11:39 1996 From: David.K.Merriman at toad.com (David.K.Merriman at toad.com) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 00:11:39 +0800 Subject: IE3.0 128-bit Message-ID: <199608171359.GAA00854@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sat Aug 17 08:59:05 1996 Just got off of MS IE3 download page. To retrieve the 128-bit version, they've got a perl script asking for a remote address and a host address via a pair of cookies. Unfortunately, it chokes *every single time* it's invoked on my system, and shows me a 1-800 number (terminally busy) to call. Has anyone either managed to download it, or gotten through to the 1-800 number? I'd _really_ like a copy of the 128-bit version. I'm a U.S. citizen, live here in Amarillo, TX. Anyone from MicroSloth reading this *might* want to let a Responsible Person know about the perl script hiccups.... Dave Merriman, Densa's mole in Mensa - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhUZZcVrTvyYOzAZAQHqygQAiEe7RmKjZcZ44Ok7Gz6GI1CCebBcdWsc 1lk2AvHJNOsI1ifq+oXbz1IuSbYJFwBOAUgJmwdXh4OMq8TIyX7mJKpR+imlysFC kk1kMtVsdPNbtaLap5LLOMMnw13NxjC4ysae1rKZ/j/8SLXEvmscoDwzO+wtyOyn kYgcgh6n8NQ= =5P41 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lzirko at c2.org Sat Aug 17 09:45:04 1996 From: lzirko at c2.org (Lou Zirko) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 00:45:04 +0800 Subject: IE3.0 128-bit Message-ID: <199608171414.HAA10883@infinity.c2.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: merriman at amaonline.com, cypherpunks at toad.com, webmaster at microsoft.com Date: Sat Aug 17 09:15:34 1996 My results were have been the same using ie30b2, but Netscape would attampt to download or ask me what app to run the .pl file with. Lou Zirko > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Date: Sat Aug 17 08:59:05 1996 > Just got off of MS IE3 download page. To retrieve the 128-bit version, > they've got a perl script asking for a remote address and a host > address > via a pair of cookies. Unfortunately, it chokes *every single time* > it's > invoked on my system, and shows me a 1-800 number (terminally busy) to > call. > > Has anyone either managed to download it, or gotten through to the > 1-800 > number? I'd _really_ like a copy of the 128-bit version. I'm a U.S. > citizen, live here in Amarillo, TX. > > Anyone from MicroSloth reading this *might* want to let a Responsible > Person know about the perl script hiccups.... > > Dave Merriman, Densa's mole in Mensa > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web > site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman > for my PGP key and fingerprint > "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest > with no one there to hear it?" > I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko at c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMhXUEctPRTNbb5z9AQHbeQf/ZOFzjDVZzgWKBhKvsVFzbyA3ayNNyJqG NuSNQ+W1TAiETioARwuCvSaokah7RBmoMOtPetGtUJBDkaw0KsKiGnByP/95a+73 +J49pubnhx7sM0PqiUNcdnE25gyHKwzSC82M31yOmsGst1FfPoklryoCdCUc2AOT A0HJpjRaIY/CdMx1WtnO8u1Pnl47GyazfkCOqpXnD6fcONvQOawadNJFUL8ehvKF vrvTn8rwo7W/71ijoFqphBJYIxnZpM34eJRz2mX8KE6VXlXCBWzCeVzoJD4zk5Yo DYqYmhmhKRubl9I9jbzG2VR6yCAPeYdYrtjWPNWgs56Yd5swlUCKpA== =WlX/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From schryver at radiks.net Sat Aug 17 09:56:05 1996 From: schryver at radiks.net (Scott Schryvers) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 00:56:05 +0800 Subject: proxy servers in Singapore Message-ID: <199608171424.JAA26755@sr.radiks.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:10 PM 8/16/96 -0400, you wrote: >Did anyone else catch the AP wire story >(it ran here in the SF Chronicle on Thursday) >about the Singapore government cracking >down on "undesirable" (e.g., sex smut, anti-govt. >postings etc.) content on web sites, usenet etc. >Their basically forcing, by law, Singapore ISPs to use >proxy servers that contain the information >that the govt. deems fit. > >Scary if you ask me. But then they have a govt. >that acts like it's the management of Disneyland. > >"Have a nice ride!" >-B >===================================================== >Brendon Macaraeg >http://www.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~brendonm >Finger macaragb at acf2.nyu.edu for my PGP Public Key > > "Disneyland with the death penalty" To quote William Gibson. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMhXI9P+hzPlzwZAdAQFgNAgA0qjtwaCv+O8+Ye0OtCmxAzW0LBsXfRtK 1nZmbUqh5NIDHSviQrDDGEX1/Oajai1cpiCZtt3MbhlWUXWgzcbxOX2ZZDUA/4xc 4/TCBeRZ5lRfSnUeV0NhmLnrX4hgVuwMS+x0Z5LnkK0hg39GByMoiqM7MFJHKBQ3 PXTqSnGnNv+dDG1ZcClZff2JIAiNLHcxx8MOk60E9kLAPVYv2XAkID3FmuuHRS2G 6zPDe6Jlgs2tmCP8u5fQEnfaGYqQiUvfg8bqJt2x5BeMGJfY7Nbj0SureFZ7lQs6 /soG82FQkdUykewoOk+lnTJ3S3UY6am3GNwCFzPuMhfpuMizBzEF8g== =RFbe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- PGP encrypted mail preferred. E-Mail me for my key. Scott J. Schryvers From Ryan.Russell at sybase.com Sat Aug 17 10:22:50 1996 From: Ryan.Russell at sybase.com (Ryan Russell/SYBASE) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:22:50 +0800 Subject: Unix passwd-cracker online? Message-ID: <9608171503.AA17207@notesgw2.sybase.com> I've given this some thought before, and there are some optimizations required... First of all, assuming you have one plaintext password for every crypt()'d combo and salt (I think there are actually a bunch of possible plaintexts for each encryption, but I'll assume that we'll save the one that looks most like an english somethingorother as any of them should work.) If you just sort them, you only need to store the 8 char plaintext, which helps with the storage, and halves it approximatly (a little more, actually.) Now...Still too much sotrage for one system, but if we had a network of machines around the Internet, with multi-gig tape changers (i've seen 40GB changer things a discount places for $1000) I figure DNS could server as a way of reaching the system that has the range you want..say we have maxhines named xJG*a.crackcrypt.com, with a leading letter on each hostname, followed by enough characters to represent how much of a range that system holds. I don't have a back of the envelop handy, and it's too early in the morning...so I'll do the calc later. But, for a small fee, anything can be arranged :) Ryan The real problem becomes regeneration when someone's tape goes corrupt.... ---------- Previous Message ---------- To: al177820 cc: cypherpunks From: wmono @ Direct.CA (William Ono) @ smtp Date: 08/17/96 01:27:53 AM Subject: Re: Unix passwd-cracker online? On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Carlos L. Mariscal may have written: > person has obtained a specific password by entering the desired > adresses'passord on a submnit form in a Web page. [deletia] > never have it if there really is such, but this came to my mind when i read > the posts on the plate-numbers-in-Oregon polemica. I would appreciate Somehow I have a hard time believing this to be true. I run crack, a password searching program that uses a dictionary as its base, on my /etc/passwd regularly to locate any users with easily guessed entries. With ultra fast crypt (UFC), the fastest crypt() replacement I can find, I can run through about 9700 passwords per second on this P6-150. Now, this is a back-of-the-envelope calculation: Assuming that the password can be one to eight characters of the following: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234567890!@#$%^&*() we find that we have a set of 72 characters. That gives us 72^8 + 72^7 + 72^6 + 72^5 + 72^4 + 72^3 + 72^2 + 72^1 or 732376025552520 possible combinations. At 9700 encryptions per second, it would take my system 2401 years to brute force -one- password to completion. That means that, most likely, if this 'locate password on demand' system existed, it would not work in real time, or in any time during any person's life. Moore's Law might shorten this timeframe considerably, but still not to any reasonable time frame. Continuing with my back-of-the-envelope estimate, we have the length of a crypt()'d password as being 13 characters. The password in plaintext has to follow, with a length of 8 characters. At a size of 732376025552520 * 21 characters, we would have a database of 15379896536602920 bytes, or 22565249 650mb CD-ROMs. That's for the passwords of one salt, without any formatting. Even if we could achieve a 95% compression rate on this data (it is text, after all) we would end up with 237528 CD-ROMs. Most likely my set of characters will be found to be incorrect, but anything that includes even a-z, A-Z, and 0-9 in one to eight character combinations most likely will not be a favourable crack target. Sorry, I don't think this is feasable, or possible. (Please do correct my calculations if errors are detected, especially if the corrected numbers make this possible.. it's getting late at night, and my mind is fogging up, so these calculations/estimates/wild guesses may be off more than usual. It does sound like an interesting project to undertake, if it were possible, but not on my equipment!) -- ** NOTE NEW KEY ** As of 08/28/95! Old key 0x2902B621 COMPROMISED! William Ono PGP Key: F3F716BD fingerprint = A8 0D B9 0F 40 A7 D6 64 B3 00 04 74 FD A7 12 C9 = fingerprint PGP-encrypted mail welcome! "640k ought to be enough for everybody." From smorri59 at icubed.net Sat Aug 17 10:32:26 1996 From: smorri59 at icubed.net (ScottMorris) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:32:26 +0800 Subject: Unix passwd-cracker online? Message-ID: <9608171527.AA26704@raptor.icubed.net> At 01:27 AM 8/17/96 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Carlos L. Mariscal may have written: > >> person has obtained a specific password by entering the desired >> adresses'passord on a submnit form in a Web page. >[deletia] >> never have it if there really is such, but this came to my mind when i read >> the posts on the plate-numbers-in-Oregon polemica. I would appreciate > >Somehow I have a hard time believing this to be true. I run crack, a >password searching program that uses a dictionary as its base, on my >/etc/passwd regularly to locate any users with easily guessed entries. >With ultra fast crypt (UFC), the fastest crypt() replacement I can find, I >can run through about 9700 passwords per second on this P6-150. >[snip] You of course are assuming they are using a Unix box. I commonly offload the etc/passwd file to my pc (p-100) and run Crackerjack against the file. With a single username a 5 meg wordlist will run in about 30 seconds (mileage will vary). The concept is certainly interesting and is another case for good passwords. Of course you need to get the password file first which is another story for another group. >Sorry, I don't think this is feasable, or possible. While I believe this is possible feasable is another story. >(Please do correct my calculations if errors are detected, especially if >the corrected numbers make this possible.. it's getting late at night, and >my mind is fogging up, so these calculations/estimates/wild guesses may be >off more than usual. It does sound like an interesting project to >undertake, if it were possible, but not on my equipment!) > > >-- ** NOTE NEW KEY ** As of 08/28/95! Old key 0x2902B621 COMPROMISED! >William Ono PGP Key: F3F716BD > fingerprint = A8 0D B9 0F 40 A7 D6 64 B3 00 04 74 FD A7 12 C9 = fingerprint >PGP-encrypted mail welcome! "640k ought to be enough ----- Scott L. Morris Systems Security Consultant smorri59 at icubed.net Data Forensics Finger smorri59 at ally.ios.com for my pgp public key. From gt4436c at prism.gatech.edu Sat Aug 17 10:33:35 1996 From: gt4436c at prism.gatech.edu (Jeremy Mineweaser) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:33:35 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960817152631.00ac0158@glc20.residence.gatech.edu> At 09:08 PM 8/16/96 +0800, rednax wrote: >Speaking of NT, I downloaded the full version of msie 3.0 the other day but >when I tried installing it, an error message came up saying that it requires >a Win95 or WinNT4.0 build of 1381 or higher. I am currently running NT 4.0b >that has a build of 1314, does anyone know of where is the upgrade or >service packs(if available)? I have tried looking around microsoft.com, but >they neither provided any detail nor did they provide an e-mail. Build 1381 is the final release of NT 4.0, not a beta version. Build 1381 was released to OEMs about a week and a half ago. It should reach a retail outlet near you before September. There is no free upgrade from the beta version of NT 4.0 to the final version. You may want to purchase a copy from Microsoft, or sit in IRC for a while and wait for someone to hand it to you. --- Jeremy L. Mineweaser | GCS/E d->-- s:- a--- C++(+++)$ ULC++(++++)>$ P+>++$ gt4436c at prism.gatech.edu | L+>++ E-(---) W++ N+ !o-- K+>++ w+(++++) O- M-- | V-(--) PS+(--) PE++ Y++>$ PGP++>+++$ t+() 5 X+ R+() *ai*vr*vx*crypto* | tv(+) b++>+++ DI+(++) D+ G++ e>+++ h-() r-@ !y- From furballs at netcom.com Sat Aug 17 11:03:46 1996 From: furballs at netcom.com (Paul S. Penrod) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 02:03:46 +0800 Subject: Lunch with Bill, anyone? In-Reply-To: <32153700.41C6@ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, the glorious Hallam-Baker prognosticated: > John C. Randolph wrote: > > > Does Microsquish *know* any industry luminaries? I mean, Cutler > > used to be one, but he's pretty burnt out, if Windoze NT is any > > indication. > > Butler Lampson and Rashid are both pretty hot. Cutler got NT > to a workable state considerably faster than he got VMS to > one. > > There are many computer companies that are full of Bozos, > Microsoft isn't one of them. Most of the people griping about > Microsoft can't code any better. > Depends. If it's media, then you are correct. If it's technical, then you're not. The biggest complaints about MS I hear come from people that actually know what they are talking about and are damn good at it. > I'm interested that Navigator 3b6 crashes several times daily > while Internet Explorer has yet to crash on me. I couldn't > care less about fancy features, at this stage I want a browser > that is reliable - like they used to be. > > Phill > This is why it's called a "Beta" Phill... As for reliable, there is no such thing... there is only MTBF. ...Paul From whallen at capitalnet.com Sat Aug 17 12:01:44 1996 From: whallen at capitalnet.com (Wayne H. Allen) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 03:01:44 +0800 Subject: "world communications being monitored" Message-ID: <199608171646.MAA01774@ginger.capitalnet.com> At 08:44 PM 8/16/96 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > >------- Forwarded Message >From: "Mat Guthrie" >To: mmlist-l at newciv.org >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:14:39 +0000 >Subject: All Int' Communications Are Monitored > > >- - -> SearchNet's snetnews Mailing List > >Hi there all, > >I heard an amazing news report on the radio today, that confirmed >what I've heard and suspected for a long time - all international >communications *are* continually being monitored!! No, what this guy heard was a book report. I don't know how well a writer Mr. Hager is but if he doesn't have proper documentation then he confirms nothing. > >The report was on "The World at One" news report on BBC Radio 4 - >about as respected, reliable and informative a source as any >mainstream media is ever likely to be. The feature spoke about a >book that's come out in New Zealand called "Secret Power" by Nicky >Hager, that has been endorsed by the former (?) Prime Minister of New >Zealand himself. It supposedly goes into great detail about an >international agreement called "Echelon" of which the US, UK, >France, New Zealand, Australia and several other nations are all >participants. According to Nicky Hager - who was interviewed on the >program - a system of monitoring stations have been set up in various >countries in the world that continually monitor ALL fax, email, >telephone and satellite communications etc, "sniffing" for keywords >using super computers. When these key words are identified the >information is automatically logged and according to Hager, sent >directly to the US intelligence services. > >Now whilst many of us have undoubtedly come across this sort of >information before and undoubtedly many of us have probably scoffed >at such ascertions as merely impossible and blatantly paranoid, >something very significant sets this report apart. Before the book >was published, Hager went with his manuscript to the New Zealand >Prime Minister who had been responsible for signing NZ up to the >agreement (I got the impression that he is no longer in power). If anyone cares to look up the political history of the western Pacific rim, it would seem very suspicious that N.Z and Australia would have any intelligence commitment with France at all. >Anyway, the PM was so shocked by the revelations that the book >contained, that he has written the forward to the book. Supposedly he >says that he had no idea of the true nature of the agreement and the >powers which it bestowed on the intelligence services and is >obviously trying to distance himself from the storm that's beginning >to brew up about it. Maybe he's just covering his arse or maybe he >was just another puppet head of government who wasn't properly >informed about what was really taking place in his own country, but >either way, the fact that he has got involved with the book adds >considerable credibility to it's claims. If the PM has no credibility (his saying he knew nothing) how does his input add credibility to the book? Those of you who have often >said that such wide-scale monitoring is "obviously impossible" might >be wise to re-evaluate your positions! > Those of us in-the-know won't be reevaluating anything. Save your money and wait for the book to get into the local library. Better to spend your money on David's book on Enigma. Wayne H.Allen whallen at capitalnet.com Pgp key at www.capitalnet.com/~whallen From rah at shipwright.com Sat Aug 17 12:10:16 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 03:10:16 +0800 Subject: Protecting floating datahavens? In-Reply-To: <199608170000.RAA08637@toad.com> Message-ID: At 8:04 PM -0400 8/16/96, Bill Stewart wrote: > There's also a Laissez-Faire City project, which proposes to lease a > 10-mile-square chunk of land to rent from any cooperative third-world > government for 50 years or so with a deal of local autonomy. > It's much less threatening to the Old World Order than calling yourself > a country, and you've got a government which is making money by > leaving you alone that at least discourages the most likely invaders > (itself, and the US) without having to provide much national defense. > Who knows, maybe they'll actually do something, and rent a chunk of > Costa Rica or Somaliland or whatever. Along these lines, there was some comment in the latest Forbes billionaire list issue about a guy who's trying to do something like this in the Phillipenes. I don't think he's going the "total local autonomy" route, but he's definitely doing the Jack Kemp "enterprize" zone, no-tax-on-anything trick. However, as Black Unicorn has noted here before, the Phillipenes are the only other country besides the USofA where citizens are taxed any income you get, no matter where on earth you actually earn it. (An outcome of the Marcos expulsion, I think). Getting from those kinds of confiscatory laws to no taxes at all will be some mean trick. Given that the Phillipenes, "People Power" or no, could be charitably be called a plutocracy at best, and a cleptocracy at worst, I wish this guy luck. Him being a plutocrat himself may help. Not that I have anything against plutocrats, mind you. Want to be one myself, someday. Well, "pluto", anyway. I guess it's the "cracy" part of "plutocracy" that gets my undies in a bunch... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 17 12:25:00 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 03:25:00 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned Capital Message-ID: <199608171713.KAA21889@dns1.noc.best.net> [In response the argument that attempts to imprison capital will cause capital flight] At 10:50 PM 8/16/96 +-200, Bart Croughs wrote: > This is a good point when you talk about governments that will > prevent *all* capital from flowing out. But a government could > prevent the outflow of capital of it's own citizens, and still > allow capital of foreigners to leave the country. As long as > foreign capital isn't imprisoned, foreign capital could be > attracted. Been tried. Does not work. 1. If foreign capital is allowed to freely enter and leave, internal players find ways to sneak their capital out. This forces the government to start regulating and supervising foreign businessmen in ways that at best terrify them (such controls look very much like creeping confiscation), and at worst cause them huge harm with no real benefits to anyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From bart.croughs at tip.nl Sat Aug 17 12:49:21 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 03:49:21 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8C73.39F4E8E0@groningen12.pop.tip.nl> Timothy May wrote: >Others have shown how meaningless your repeated calls for a proof are, as >so many assumptions must be carefully spelled out. >To give an example of how hard the situation is to analyze, consider the >computer and chip industries. (If you argue that your "theorem" is for >nations in the aggregate, and not any particular companies or even >industries, then I will maintain that my example holds pretty much true for >automobiles, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, and so on._ >The computer and chip industries move certain investments abroad, to >Malaysia, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Mexico, and so forth. But by moving >these investments abroad, they believe their net market size, >profitability, shareholder value, etc., will be enhanced. Else they >wouldn't do it. >Multiply this by all the industries.... >Now, would "the economy" be "better off" if Intel, say, had not moved >assembly operations to Malaysia in the 1970s? Perhaps Intel would now be >bankrupt and gone, as so many of its rivals of the time are now gone and >barely remembered. >You see the problem? Who can say what "better off" is, given that we can't >run history down alternate paths as an experiment. >Your one-track mind is truly astounding. We've had kooks and oddballs on >the list before, but never one who has written a dozen or more posts asking >the same ill-phrased question over and over again. So you say that my question can't be answered because the situation is too difficult to analyze, "given that we can't run history down alternate paths as an experiment." The situation is indeed hopelessly difficult if you think that economics is an empirical (experimental) science. But, as an Austrian, you should know that economics isn't an empirical science; it's a science that deals with the logic of human action. It starts from the axiom of human action, and all the other axioms of economics follow from this axiom by deductive reasoning. This is called the praxeological method. The answer to economic problems can only be given by reasoning, not by running experiments in the real world. Read Mises (Human action), Rothbard (Man, economy and state) etc. for further information. To prevent you from claiming this isn't true, I will quote Rothbard (in 'The foundations of modern Austrian economics', p. 19, ed. E. Dolan): "Praxeology rests on the fundamental axiom that individual human beings act(...) The praxeological method spins out by verbal deduction the logical implications of that primordial fact." etc. So, it really doesn't matter at all that we can't run history down alternate paths as an experiment, because the kind of empirical 'data' that such experiments would generate are not very helpful in the first place. Fortunately, situations that are at first sight hopelessly difficult can sometimes be analyzed and simplified by performing a thought experiment. That's what I did when I offered my 'reductio ad absurdum' proof. I didn't use empirical data, I used logic and reasoning; that's the way it should be done in economics. So far, you didn't rebut the proof I offered. You only argue that my proof must be wrong because the situation is too difficult to analyze because of all the empirical data that are lacking. That argument is, as I explained above, not to the point. And the fact that you take refuge in name-calling makes me suspect that subconsciously you don't find it very to the point yourself either. I understand it's not pleasant to be rebutted every time you answer my posts, but I fear it's something you will have to get used to. Of course, you could also consider making better arguments (after reading the books I suggested), or else stop posting on the subject. Bart Croughs From clopez at nayar.uan.mx Sat Aug 17 12:58:18 1996 From: clopez at nayar.uan.mx (Carlos L. Mariscal) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 03:58:18 +0800 Subject: Unix passwd-cracker online? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, as for William's calculations, my ideas have been confirmed. What I still think may be possible is a fast search on /etc/passwd for blank entries or Obvious (login name, reverse login name, etc) password entries, right? Still, ik think it would be fairly illegal; not assuming EVERYthing on the net is 100% legal... thanx Will __ || ==== 'If you can dream of it | |__ then you can manage it' | |-.\ |__| \\ clopez at nayar.uan.mx || || ======__| ________||__ /____________\ Carlos L. Mariscal From dbell at maths.tcd.ie Sat Aug 17 13:00:08 1996 From: dbell at maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 04:00:08 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens In-Reply-To: <32155657.53661@mail.aa.net> Message-ID: <9608171851.aa04986@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> In message <32155657.53661 at mail.aa.net>, "Brian C. Lane" writes: > How about an orbiting DataHaven. No jurisdiction to bother with, >extremely difficult to get to (except by large governments...). You could >put together a couple of Linux boxes with a RAID system, some backups and a >large solar panel and have a very nice, secure DataHaven. Wouldn't you have to use military-grade chips for the hardware? (Or whatever the type is - it had better survive launch, not to mention solar flares.) > Granted, you wouldn't have all the fun of floating around the south >pacific fending off pirates and navies who are after your data, but it >would work. Might even be cheaper than outfitting the oil-ring with the >rate that they are tossing satellites into space. Well, there would be less need to make it hurricane proof! :-) > If the HAM radio community can get a satellite into space, why not the >Cypherpunks/Linux communities? Wow - I've been out of touch with space programmes in the last few years - which satellite was this? (The HAM radio one?) Anyone have any reccomendations for good web sites on satellites/rockets/space science in general? Here's a couple of ESA URLs to start the ball rolling: ARIANE 5 Failure - Full Report European Space Agency I'm not sure who would launch it - a Japanese launcher? (ESA is strapped for cash, which was one reason for the phenomenaly stupid move of putting space probes onto the maiden flight of the Ariane 5.) Derek From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Sat Aug 17 13:18:15 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 04:18:15 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology In-Reply-To: <01BB8C73.39F4E8E0@groningen12.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: <32160AF1.3B14@vail.tivoli.com> A fan's notes: Bart Croughs wrote in one enormously long line: > ... Mr. Croughs, would you *please* have someone help you locate the "Return" key on your keyboard, and then press it every once in a while? > ... better arguments (after reading the books I suggested) Like what is it with you and these books? Is "Austrian" a code word for "Divine omniscient extraterrestrial super-being"? Through all this sophist gibberish I've completely lost track of what exactly it is you're trying to say. ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From vldiaz at adnc.com Sat Aug 17 13:46:29 1996 From: vldiaz at adnc.com (Vincent L. Diaz) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 04:46:29 +0800 Subject: Software manpower exports and the power of governments Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960817114626.24776196@mail.adnc.com> At 06:17 PM 8/17/96 +0600, you wrote: >In the case >of Coke, I can understand the government not wanting to spend >precious foreign exchange on sugared water in a country where >there is a serious shortage of drinking water. Tim made the >perfectly valid point that such decisions cost the country in >reputation, but the Indian government doesn't mind loss of >reputation in matters it firmly believes in, as in the current CTBT discussion. There is a central point here that you are missing. Many of us here believe in the absolute, sovereign freedom of the individual. Governments should only be minimally involved with the earning of individuals. Control over the distribution of currency abroad, (i.e. foreign exchange controls) is definitely not one of them. As I understand the story of Coke in India, New Delhi was bent, among other things, on stealing proprietary information, (i.e. the formula for Coke) from the company. In short, they told Coke that they could stay only on condition that the formula was turned over to New Delhi. Yes, they cloaked their proposed theft in high sound nationalistic tripe, however it was nothing but a blatant attempt to steal what was not theirs. I do not claim a complete knowledge about the availability of fresh water on the Indian Sub-Continent. But I would be willing to wager that lack of progress in this area was severely hampered due to the typical, Statist meddling of the Indian government in the lives of its own people. It is immoral for any government to interfere in the personal choices of free men and women. If any person wishes to partake of a high quality, and probably locally expensive soft drink in preference to either local brands or water, scare or not, such a choice should be left to them, not to an Collectivist cabal of bureaucrats. What the Socialist Governments of India have never comprehended is that a government intent on doing you good is capable of doing you out of everything you own! Simplistic? Yes......simplicity is one of freedom's chief virtues. Regards, VINCENT L. DIAZ U-SAVE COMMUNICATIONS Business Line: 619-277-2411 Fax Line: 619-277-0298 http://www.cognigen.com/agencies/ From eb at comsec.com Sat Aug 17 14:14:57 1996 From: eb at comsec.com (Eric Blossom) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 05:14:57 +0800 Subject: CS8191 data sheet and ordering info... Message-ID: <199608171837.LAA20948@comsec.com> Attached is the ascii version of the data sheet, followed by ordering information. Full protocol specifications will be available in about 2 weeks. Eric ---------------------------------------------------------------- Communication Security Corporation CS8191 Triple-DES Telephone Privacy Device With the growing number of tools available to assist in wiretapping, anyone using a telephone in the '90's is vulnerable to unwanted eavesdropping. With many of today's standard technologies, anyone can gain access to our most private of conversations. As a result, the telecommunications industry has an increasing need for private, secure voice communication devices. The Communication Security Corporation has dedicated its resources to addressing this need by designing the CS8191, our flagship product and the most secure telephone privacy protection available. Unsurpassed Security Truly open, encryption technology is at the heart of the CS8191 telephone security unit. With the press of a button, the CS8191 is activated. Within seconds your conversation is kept secure from the intrusion of any type of wiretapping. Open-Standard Encryption How are you assured that your tele-security unit is really working to protect your telecommunications? In truth, the "trust-us" proprietary solutions used by competing products are an indication of weak privacy protection. They "hide" from the user, the ability to verify proper functioning of the unit. Communication Security provides users with the best privacy protection by incorporating leading-edge encryption technology that utilizes the power of truly open standards. Our commitment to an open specification allows sophisticated users the ability to "check under the hood" and evaluate the security attributes of the system. Portable And Easy To Use The CS8191 has been designed to work with conventional analog telephone systems (POTS). The unit connects between your telephone and the wall, much like a telephone answering machine. Plug in the power, and that's it. In "clear mode" your telephone continues to work as it normally does. To begin an encrypted conversation, simply press the 'go secure' button and wait for the green light to come on. The system is easy to use and compact, making it the perfect telephone security solution for home, travel or office use. Superior Performance * As a standard component, Communication Security has incorporated a leading-edge speech coder for clarity unsurpassed in secure telephone devices, to date. * Voice clarity is virtually undisturbed whether the system is in secure or clear mode. * LED indicators on the unit let you know instantly that your call is being transmitted securely. Service And Support The Communication Security Corporation provides a one year warranty for all parts and labor. Upgrades are included in the price of the CS8191 and are available under the terms of the warranty. For More Information To get more information on securing your phone communications, send email to info at comsec.com or call (707) 577-0409, fax (707) 577-0413. Features Benefits * Open standard encryption Allows independent evaluation and verification of protocol and behavior * Excellent speech quality Superior clarity is assured with leading-edge speech coder as a standard component * Auto Secure Allows for secure, unattended operation for all-hours data protection * Small size and weight Makes the CS8191 the perfect solution for secure home, office or travel telephone communications Specifications: Modem * ITU V.32bis (14,400 bits/sec) Interfaces * Two buttons (Go Secure, Go Clear) * Two LEDs (Secure, Clear) * External power supply * Two modular phone jacks Power * Input voltage: 110 volts AC, 50-60 Hz. Approvals * FCC, part 15 and 68 Warranty * 12 months parts and labor Software Upgrades * One year of upgrades included in purchase price Voice Nodes * Clear voice * Secure voice Secure Mode Speech Compression * International standard GSM 06.10 full rate speech transcoding (13,000 bits/sec) Notes: * Specifications subject to change without notice. * Government regulations apply for export license. * Completing the circle of secure communication requires the receiving end of your call to also have a CS8191 unit connected to their phone. Cryptographic Details: * Unique session key generated for each conversation using Diffie-Hellman exponential key exchange (2048 bit modulus) (U.S. Patent No. 4,200,770 licensed by Cylink Corporation) * Defense against "man in the middle" active attack using interleave protocol combined with voice verification of six digit key name derived from the public exponentials * Hardware Random number generator based on Johnson noise * Three Key Triple-DES (168 bit key), operating in modified counter mode. * No back door, "Key-Escrow" or GAK * Open standard. Full protocol specifications available. Communication Security Corporation 1275 Fourth St. Suite 194 Santa Rosa, CA 95404 Tel: 707-577-0409 Fax: 707-577-0413 info at comsec.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I want real telephone privacy protection! Send me ________ CS8191's at $995.00 each: $____________ Shipping and Handling: $_______10.00 California residents add sales tax: $____________ Total: $____________ I'm paying with Check or M/O ____ Visa / MC ____ Name on Card:______________________________ Card Number:_______________________________ Exp. Date:__________ Ship To: _________________________________________ _________________________________________ _________________________________________ __________________________________________ Allow 6-8 weeks for delivery. I am a US citizen or "Lawful Permanent Resident" Yes____ No____ Make checks payable to: Communication Security Corp. Mail or fax this order form to: Communication Security Corp. 1275 Fourth St., Suite 194 Santa Rosa, CA 95404 v: 707-577-0409 f: 707-577-0413 From dougr at skypoint-gw.globelle.com Sat Aug 17 14:18:24 1996 From: dougr at skypoint-gw.globelle.com (Douglas B. Renner) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 05:18:24 +0800 Subject: "world communications being monitored" In-Reply-To: <199608170344.UAA05092@netcom22.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > I heard an amazing news report on the radio today, that confirmed > what I've heard and suspected for a long time - all international > communications *are* continually being monitored!! Yes, this has been public record information for at least 15 years. > program - a system of monitoring stations have been set up in various > countries in the world that continually monitor ALL fax, email, > telephone and satellite communications etc, "sniffing" for keywords > using super computers. When these key words are identified the > information is automatically logged and according to Hager, sent > directly to the US intelligence services. Which is located in Ft. Meade, etc etc. Yes, we know. That's why the big interest on this list for military grade encryption for ensuring the privacy of personal communications. It's also why there's such a big push by governments for key escrow technology. Governments want to keep this "edge", the existence of which hasn't yet penetrated popular awareness. For more information on the subject, search some magazine indices or archives of this list for the keywords NSA or National Security Agency. A surprising amount of information, including all of what you've mentioned, and more, is readily available in the public record. From mch at squirrel.com Sat Aug 17 14:18:33 1996 From: mch at squirrel.com (Mark C. Henderson) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 05:18:33 +0800 Subject: proxy servers in Singapore In-Reply-To: <199608171424.JAA26755@sr.radiks.net> Message-ID: <9608171227.TE25432@squirrel.com> > >Did anyone else catch the AP wire story > >(it ran here in the SF Chronicle on Thursday) > >about the Singapore government cracking > >down on "undesirable" (e.g., sex smut, anti-govt. > >postings etc.) content on web sites, usenet etc. > >Their basically forcing, by law, Singapore ISPs to use > >proxy servers that contain the information > >that the govt. deems fit. A copy of the regulations is available from http://www.gov.sg/sba/netreg/regrel.htm One of the providers in Singapore (singnet) has the following page up about the proxy server that Singnet customers will be forced to use http://www.singnet.com.sg/cache/sbareg.html Scary stuff. But pretty much everything I hear about Singapore is pretty scary. I'm wondering if they'll implement this by blocking direct connectivity from their customers machines for TCP with the destination ports commonly used by http, ftp, etc. thus allowing people to do things not supported by the proxy and to get around the blocking pretty easily, or if they'll just block all direct IP connectivity between their customers and the rest of the Internet, so people in Singapore will be reduced to viewing the Internet as nothing more than the WWW. -- Mark Henderson -- mch at squirrel.com, henderso at netcom.com, markh at wimsey.bc.ca ViaCrypt PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1 A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46 unstrip for Solaris, Wimsey crypto archive, TECO, computer security links, change-sun-hostid, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ - http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/ From vince at offshore.com.ai Sat Aug 17 14:22:12 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 05:22:12 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robert Hettinga > However, as Black Unicorn has noted here before, the Phillipenes are the >only other country besides the USofA where citizens are taxed any income >you get, no matter where on earth you actually earn it. It is not exactly that bad if you are outside the USA. I got ahold of the IRS codes on this before I left the USA (so about 2 years ago). The rule then was that the first $70,000 you earned was tax free if you were outside the USA for 330 days or more of the year. From another x-pat in Anguilla I heard that the $70 K had been increased. If you live outside the USA and have a corporation outside the USA, you might prefer that the corporation buy a company yacht rather than pay you more than $70 K. And at least on this tropical island, $70,000 tax free would go a very long way. It is true that if you are getting dividends and interest on your fortune that moving outside the USA won't help, unless you get rid of your US citizenship. And the USA wants you to pay capital gains on your fortune as if you sold everything for cash right before you got rid of your US citizenship. So it seems best to get rid of it before you are really rich. :-) -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From unicorn at schloss.li Sat Aug 17 14:56:32 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 05:56:32 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608170314.WAA11946@einstein> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote: [Constitutional Arguments Deleted] > > And, I might add, there is a different standard for voice communications > > however carried. The heat from a indoor pot garden is a different matter, > > and incidently, the matter on which the question was presented. > > I have to disagree. The issue is not what is being carried on the medium but > rather can I measure that medium without a warrant if I am a officer of the > court or empowered by law as the police. Implicit in this question is the > fact that my goal is to gather information to be presented to a court for > legal action against the party being monitored. This was a strawman that the > court fell for, the defence attorney didn't understand the technology either. > > To argue that if I measure some quantity and no modulation is present I may > present that as evidence, but if modulation is present then I need a warrant > to even measure it is ludicrous and screams 'alterior motive'. I would say > that the argument of the state of the light (ie on/off) is modulation and > therefore may be extended to limit unwarranted measurement. Then one reaches the absolutely unteniable position that the light reflected off the criminal while he shoots the victim 5 times in the chest in cold blood cannot be intercepted by a law enforcement officer (or if we extend your citizen = law enforcement officer analogy, also a citizen) without a warrant. > So, all I need to do is to modulate the IR lamps with a commen radio. Then > they can watch all they want with cameras and such. No warrant, no evidence. > Do you figure X-10 modulation would qualify? Wouldn't the on/off caused by > the AC power qualify as modulation of the light? The crux of the argument is the "expectation of privacy" reasoning laid down in e.g., Katz v. U.S., 389 U.S. 347 (1967) ("What a person knowingly exposes to the public, even in his own home or office, is not a subject of Fourth Amendment protection.... But what he seeks to preserve as private, even in an area accessible to the public, may be constitutionally protected."); California v. Greenwood, 486 U.S. 35 (1988); Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979) ("A person has no legitimate expectation of privacy in information he voluntarily turns over to third parties.") and Florida v. Riley, 488 U.S. 445 (1989) (Involving the warrantless "search" of a greenhouse from a helocopter 400 feet above). All the "but it's modulated" arguments in the world mean nothing. I understand your position, unfortunately the Supreme Court simply does not agree with you. > > > States such as N. Carolina (per extension via the 14th) should be > > > prohibited from regulating or otherwise controlling possesion and use > > > of radar detectors (in this case) which are currently illegal for > > > private persons to operate. > > > > There is the additional matter of the obstruction of justice issues.. > > Obstruction of what justice? The goal is to keep the speed down so people > are not killed. It is NOT to give the police a means to gather operating > funds. If the police were honest in this pursuit they would sit on the side > of the road radaring to their hearts content as long as their lights were on > indicating they were actively on duty while everyone else zoomed along > listening to their detectors buzz. Yes, we would have much less money from > tickets but we would have many more living people paying taxes as well. I > also suspect that if this were implimented it would take many fewer police > to regulate traffic further reducing the needs for money. The law was > specificaly and openly put in place because the radar detector decreased the > chances of the police from catching and ticketing you, somewhat different > than enforcing public safety. Exactly, so the law prevented anyone who felt like it from breaking the law with impunity because of a little box. That's obstruction of justice. "Well sure I slow down when I see a police officer, so I'm obeying the law." You also have to be carefuly about arguing for or against the legitimacy of the law intermixed with arguments about the legitimacy of enforcement. > The police in a democratic society should never be allowed to skulk around > monitoring the populace. Well, this position is highly subjective and so broad as to be a bit suspect. What about beat cops? I could read the above to prohibit them. Sit around and wait until called, is that your position? I'm not saying it's reasonable or unreasonable, just a bit extreme. > Cops hiding in the bushes and other such tactics are not law enforcement but > rather state sanctioned theft. Gives 'highwayman' a whole new slant. Again, this is subjective. I don't much like speed enforcement either, but one could as easly say "cops staking out a suspected site of a robbery and hiding in vans or other such tactics are not law enforcement." > The argument that by allowing such activity the police are prohibited from > catching criminals ignores the fact that the police are firstly enforced > with public safety. Their primary job is to PREVENT the incident within > their operating parameters and only secondarily to apprehend participants > after the fact. Well, I think this ignores their anticipated deterrant effect, which goes directly to public safety, but this is going way afield. > Again, a strawman the courts and lots of others have swallowed. > > > >I< tend to agree with you, but I see the arguments on the other side as > > well. > > I also see the other side, I believe the Constitutional approach that I > advocate can meet and defeat any argument they may present PROVIDED the > court does not have a alterior motive of sustaining the status quo but > rather an open goal of enforcing the Constitution for life, liberty, and the > pursuit of happiness. Well, I tend to side with you, believe it or not, but your position is a bit idealistic. One must also approach the practical needs of law and order. > I believe that is a rare find indeed. Don't get me wrong. I estimate the > chance of my success to win support, let alone actualy getting any of it > implimented, as pretty close to nil. But if I don't discuss it on public > forums such as this then who else will? Point taken. > > > If the police don't need a warrant to > > > collect information then citizens are equaly able to recieve that > > > information as well. > > > > How EXACTLY does this follow? > > Because courts, not police are empowered to search. Constitutionaly a police > officer may detain you (by local law) but he may NOT search you until presented > to a magistrate. This is what was meant by 'fair and speedy trial'. The above is incorrect. There are MANY instances where police are empowered to affect warrentless searches. > > > Since the above ruling states that as long as the > > > emissions are eminating from the site and the reception takes place > > > other than at the site (in this case, being inside the police car) > > > , perhaps along a public highway, then no privacy is involved. This > > > means that citizens have a right, by extension, to know when they are > > > being beamed by radar. > > > > Again, you need to distinguish law enforcement purposes and private > > purposes. > > Constitutionaly there is no distinction. Police are citizens also. State action and private action, a very serious and bright line distinction exists. > > > This same chain of logic can be extended to cell phones and such as > > > well. > > > > And yet you need a warrant to intercept cell phone conversation. > > Exactly, and by extension you should need a warrant to monitor ANY other > form of EM radiation when acting as a officer of the court collecting > information or evidence relating to possible or existing proceedings. Your argument amounts to the existance of bright line constitutionally protected "areas." This argument is an interesting one but it poses many many practical problems and has been explicitly rejected by the Supreme Court. > > > This connection is even clearer when one realizes that the only difference > > > between IR and your cell phone eminations is frequency. The intermediate > > > vector boson in both cases is a photon. > > > > And the fact that cellphones carry voice communications. > > Is irrelevant. You can't know that fact without first measuring the medium. > Sorta defeats the whole purpose. You have to measure it to determine if you > can measure it, stupid or premeditated misrepresentation. You must remember, the only sanction for violating the rule is exclusion. Police can monitor it all they like, they just can present it as evidence. So, if they were to monitor it and discover that it contained no modulation, what's the harm? If they discover modulation, they go for a warrant. > > > It is similar to arresting somebody for wearing a blue shirt but letting > > > the person wearing the red shirt go free. > > > > ANd having the blue shirt say "kill the president" maybe would even out > > your example. > > How? It certainly raises the spectre of 'strawman'. Attempting to change the > subject to 'freedom of speech' is not a respectable tactic. What is on the > shirt is irrelevant. No, it was pointing out the difference between a communication and a blank shirt. What is on the shirt may be irrelevant, but the fact that it says something is not. > Jim Choate In any event, I propose we move this to private mail. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 17 15:15:11 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 06:15:11 +0800 Subject: Ad Hoc Bay Area Cypherpunks Thing--Sat., 24 Aug, 3 pm, Menlo Park Message-ID: At 9:45 AM 8/17/96, aba at atlas.ex.ac.uk wrote: >Living in the UK, I really don't have that much idea where the people >on the list I've gotten to know over the years live. > >I will be over in the San Francisco / Redwood City area next Saturday >(24th), if anyone I know would like to meet, exchange keys, have a >chat about crypto/cypherpunks stuff, mail me. > >Also if there is any regular cpunks meeting in this area which >coincides, let me know! (I passed this message by Adam Back, and he can make this schedule. So, here it is. Unless serious objections are raised--e.g., a conflict with another party--I suggest we do this.) There is no Cypherpunks event scheduled for that Saturday, but we can have an ad hoc gathering, informally arranged. I suggest meeting at 3 p.m. at Cody's Bookstore, on El Camino Real in Menlo Park (hard to miss). Or at the coffee shop next to it...either should be sufficient Schelling points to nucleate a group. >From there we can adjourn to someplace for food. This should be close enough (a few miles) from Redwood City...a lot closer for Adam that the 50 miles for me. But I always need good excuses to visit the Valley. --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From distribution-request at sevenlocks.com Sat Aug 17 15:21:22 1996 From: distribution-request at sevenlocks.com (distribution-request at sevenlocks.com) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 06:21:22 +0800 Subject: distribution Digest - V01 #02 Message-ID: <19960816000246.a29add4e.in@wwwserver.cqi.com> distribution Digest Fri, 16 Aug 1996 00:01:50 Eastern Daylight Time V01 #02 Today's topics: 'new security information available' 'new security information available' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:19:11 Eastern Daylight Time From: "Dstang" Subject: new security information available Dear Security Colleague: I would like to invite you to subscribe to SecurityDigest, a new, free bi-monthly electronic newsletter, devoted to security news, issues and trends. Every issue of SecurityDigest is delivered to your desktop (or laptop) with the latest security news and information you need, in a clear and concise e-mail format. Subscribe now by sending an e-mail message to listserver at sevenlocks.com containing the string "subscribe securitydigest." Or view the charter issue of SecurityDigest on Safe at Home, Seven Locks Software's Web site (http://www.sevenlocks.com/SecurityDigest.htm), where you can also secure your free subscription. Sincerely, David J. Stang President and CEO Seven Locks Software, Inc.  ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:19:26 Eastern Daylight Time From: "Dstang" Subject: new security information available Dear Security Colleague: I would like to invite you to subscribe to SecurityDigest, a new, free bi-monthly electronic newsletter, devoted to security news, issues and trends. Every issue of SecurityDigest is delivered to your desktop (or laptop) with the latest security news and information you need, in a clear and concise e-mail format. Subscribe now by sending an e-mail message to listserver at sevenlocks.com containing the string "subscribe securitydigest." Or view the charter issue of SecurityDigest on Safe at Home, Seven Locks Software's Web site (http://www.sevenlocks.com/SecurityDigest.htm), where you can also secure your free subscription. Sincerely, David J. Stang President and CEO Seven Locks Software, Inc.  ------------------------------ End of distribution Digest V01 #02 ********************************** From vince at offshore.com.ai Sat Aug 17 15:21:45 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 06:21:45 +0800 Subject: Anguilla Message-ID: First I think Tim's summary of my situation is very accurate and fair at this point. One nit of a detail: >I surmise, given the size of Anguilla and the non-constitutional basis of >its government, etc., that it _might_ be a lot easier for a bureaucrat or >the Governor-General, or whomever, to seriously disrupt any business by a >few phone calls. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect it to be >true. Anguilla does have a constitution. It would be hard for any bureaucrat to seriously disrupt an Anguillian's business. There just are not any regulations that they can arbitrarily invoke to harras people. However, x-pats are here as guests and they have to get a work permit, or visa, or something from time to time. So if x-pats do something that wears out their welcome, they have to leave. Tim: >Contrast this with a small data haven (a new >industry) in a small country, with operating margins that are razor-thin >(given the pricing structure Vince announced, I doubt Taxbomber and other >customers were paying enough to ensure a flow of payoffs to the Ruling >Families of Anguilla and the various officials that need to look the other >way). Nope, no bribes to government. However, in doing business here a lot of people have learned more about the Internet and computers. And I and another x-pat have started a weekly computer club. So there are good reasons that Anguilla should like having me here. For the record, the only bribe I have paid while I was here was (indirectly) to someone at the phone company to try to get a phone installed faster. It did not help, still took a year to get the phone. Cable and Wireless, and their high prices, is the worst thing about Anguilla. The current Anguilla government seems to be very clean. The rumor is that Cable and Wireless bribed the previous government with things like a free loan of a bulldozer worth $500/day for a couple weeks to get their 30 year monopoly contract. Given that CandW is making millions each year, seems they got off cheap, if true. Claim is that the UK does not mind their companies bribing officials, and CandW does it alot all around the world. -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Sat Aug 17 16:00:34 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:00:34 +0800 Subject: Ad Hoc Bay Area Cypherpunks Thing--Sat., 24 Aug, 3 pm, Menlo Park In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > There is no Cypherpunks event scheduled for that Saturday, but we can have > an ad hoc gathering, informally arranged. I suggest meeting at 3 p.m. at > Cody's Bookstore, on El Camino Real in Menlo Park (hard to miss). Or at the > coffee shop next to it...either should be sufficient Schelling points to Do you mean Kepler's? That's the one right near Menlo Park caltrain station; the coffee shop next to it is Cafe Borone. Get the Mocha. Simon --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From success at netcom.ca Sat Aug 17 16:02:14 1996 From: success at netcom.ca (Greg Nygren) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:02:14 +0800 Subject: signoff cypherpunks Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960817211326.0068ba48@netcom.ca> >Return-Path: >Received: from toad.com by tor-srs2.netcom.ca (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom) > id TAA12781; Fri, 16 Aug 1996 19:38:39 -0400 (EDT) >Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA07516 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from soleil.mnet.fr (root at soleil.mnet.fr [194.51.151.1]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA07511 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from linux (ppp03.mnet.fr [194.51.151.26]) by soleil.mnet.fr (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA21252 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 1996 19:29:49 +0100 >Message-ID: <3214BCA6.6ED8124F at mnet.fr> >Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:23:34 -0500 >From: Arnauld Dravet >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i586) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: cypherpunks at toad.com >Subject: signoff cypherpunks >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com >Precedence: bulk > >signoff cypherpunks > > From hallam at ai.mit.edu Sat Aug 17 16:45:04 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:45:04 +0800 Subject: Anguilla - A DataHaven? In-Reply-To: <4v12d9$ncp@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <32163DED.167E@ai.mit.edu> The problem with the debatre on datahavens is that it is failing to account fo the fact that without the infrastructure of law business is not possible. What taxbomber offers is false identification papers. He does not simply offer fake passports but a whole raft of fake credentials. If I am offering free services to accredited journalists and someone comes along with a taxbomber supplied illegitimate press card and obtains free services that is fraud. Just because a policy for supplying credentials is not fully effective does not make it legitimate for an individual to make a business out of helping people to criminally exploit its flaws. Similarly libertarian wet dreams about oil rigs chock full of commandos armed to the teeth with machine guns will remain dreams. Fact is that under international law an oil rig is regarded as a ship and as such has to be acredited by some recognised nation. Diplomatic recoginition is not a trivial matter. Countries only provide recoginition if it is in their interests and critically it is _governments_ that are recognised. A declaration of independence by the inhabitants of an oil rig would be treated in a similar fashion to the Montana freemen. If the intention was to make international fraud easier then definitely expect the same treatment. Phill From sparks at bah.com Sat Aug 17 16:51:38 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:51:38 +0800 Subject: Greetings from Whore.com Message-ID: <199608172210.SAA18778@pop1.jmb.bah.com> Well, it was getting a bit "stiff" in here.... but I guess 'ya never can tell.. I haven't checked it out.. has anybody ? From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 17 17:28:25 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 08:28:25 +0800 Subject: Credit enforcement In-Reply-To: <199608162123.OAA16545@netcom.netcom.com> Message-ID: I thought that classical libertarians agree that the enforcement of contracts is a proper function of the government. From hallam at ai.mit.edu Sat Aug 17 17:35:05 1996 From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Hallam-Baker) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 08:35:05 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto In-Reply-To: <4uu76c$ahk@life.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <32164B5A.2781@ai.mit.edu> If we are having a Schlafy bash then i think it fair to bring up her "Con-Con" paranoia. She has published a series of articles predicting that there will be a "Constitutional Convention" - that is not one of your ordinary constitutional ammendment sessions but a wholesale rewritting of the US constitution by a cabal as happened when it was first written. A typical rant:- >They adopted a plan to plunge America into a Constitutional >Convention. Article V of the U.S. Constitution requires that "on the >Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, >[Congress] shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments." This >method has never been used; all 27 Amendments now in the Constitution >were adopted in the traditional way (passage by a two-thirds majority in >each House of Congress followed by ratification by three-fourths of the >states). http://www.eagleforum.org/users/eagle/public_html/psr/1996/may96/psrmay96.html In fact despite Schlafy having predicted such a conference many times over the past years (I have seen more than 10) her claims are entirely false, not to say fraudulent. She uses the usual tricks of citing fraudulent references and making up quotes. In short she is a fraud hoping to get people to join her foundation to stop a Con con that nobody is proposing. I don't think that Schlafy is a usefull aly any more than Bob Dole basically its just opportunist politicians latching onto the rhetoric of debates without engaging in the argument. Dole senses that the mood of the country is pro crypto so he supports that, he senses that it is anti porn so he will support that. Basically Schlafy is playing the same game. She is saying things that she knows will curry favour so she can get people to join her Wacko club. Phill From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 17 17:58:57 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 08:58:57 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: YOu are correct that a gun cannot be imaged behind an actual screen. I am correct that a peice of tinfoil doesn't comprise an actual screen. Go price a shield room, and see how much is for materials, and how much is for labor. Go talk to the crew that's putting it in; you'll see that they travel all the hell over the world putting these things in, because the vendor can't just hire some pick-up electricians and dry-wall types. If the source radiates its EM waves, which reach and intercept the tinfoil, unless the tinfoil is correctly bonded, shielded, grounded, etc, the tinfile will re-radiate. That can be imaged. I do this class of imaging, from signals that are weaker than these, for a living. In fact, we sometimes have to apply attenuation at the front end to stop overload of the amplifiers and signal processors. No, I'm not going to talk about it. Not because I'm a hot-shit keeper of classified information, rather because I'm lazy, or maybe because I'm accustomed to getting paid for teaching? Most of the concepts are discussed in IEEE journals and other sources. You could hand all the open sources, and a few billion dollars, to the Botswanians tomorrow; it would still take them a dozen years to get it working reliably. It's as much art as science. I guess the fancy word is "engineering". You don't know how to do it; so what. I know how to troublehoot and repair it. From eric at syzygy.com Sat Aug 17 18:08:56 1996 From: eric at syzygy.com (Eric Messick) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 09:08:56 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: <199608150454.VAA12982@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608172309.QAA10539@syzygy.com> I just happen to have the following article sitting on the desk next to me: San Jose Mercury News, Saturday, May 6, 1995, page 7A Radar gives strip search a new meaning New York Times Engineers at a federally financed laboratory are developing a security device that uses radar to peer through clothing to inspect for hidden objects. Working prototypes of these holographic radar scanners already exist, and engineers at the Pacific Northwest Laboratory in Richland, Wash., believe a perceived need by security officials to scan for concealed weapons and explosives may eclipse issues of cost. The laboratory [...] has built two versions of its radar skin scanner, one a walk-in booth that can scan an entire body and the other a handheld device resembling a camcorder that can be pointed at specific parts of a body. The ultra-wind-band radar technology used in these inventions depends partly on powerful computers, which analyze radar echoes reflected by a subject's skin to construct visual images of the person's body in a matter of seconds. [...] Representatives of the laboratory acknowledge that the sense of modesty of some airline passengers, jurors, federal office workers and others subjected to radar scanning might be offended. "But the images, although explicit, are not pornographic," [Thomas] Hall said. "In any case, we foresee setting up the scanners in pairs at each entry point - one for males and one for females, with security officials matched by sex." From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 17 18:46:41 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 09:46:41 +0800 Subject: Stealth Buildings Was Re: "X-Ray Gun" for imperceptible searches In-Reply-To: <199608172309.QAA10539@syzygy.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Eric Messick wrote: > Representatives of the laboratory acknowledge that the sense of > modesty of some airline passengers, jurors, federal office workers and > others subjected to radar scanning might be offended. The output is false-color scaled. Look at IR sat-photos of the earth to get a sense of this. From blane at aa.net Sat Aug 17 18:53:34 1996 From: blane at aa.net (Brian Lane) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 09:53:34 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens In-Reply-To: <9608171851.aa04986@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Derek Bell wrote: > Wouldn't you have to use military-grade chips for the hardware? (Or > whatever the type is - it had better survive launch, not to mention solar > flares.) You'd have to make sure everything was soldered in pretty well, but it could be done. As for solar flare, etc. protection it won't need anything that any other satellite system would need. > > If the HAM radio community can get a satellite into space, why not the > >Cypherpunks/Linux communities? > > Wow - I've been out of touch with space programmes in the last few > years - which satellite was this? (The HAM radio one?) Embarrasingly enough, I cannot remember its name. I don't have a HAM license (although I've studied for it -- just never took the test), but my boss does. I think the satellite was launched in the mid to late 80's, and it used for experimental communications. > > Anyone have any reccomendations for good web sites on > satellites/rockets/space science in general? Good idea, I'll start a link on my webpage :> > I'm not sure who would launch it - a Japanese launcher? (ESA is > strapped for cash, which was one reason for the phenomenaly stupid move of > putting space probes onto the maiden flight of the Ariane 5.) We'd want someone more reliable than ESA! I doubt that we could afford to have a backup satellite in case of a disaster. Once the Delta Clipper is functional the payload costs to orbit is supposed to drop tremendously. Brian From snow at smoke.suba.com Sat Aug 17 19:09:24 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 10:09:24 +0800 Subject: Software manpower exports and the power of governments In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960817121723.002f9b34@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Arun Mehta wrote: > Look, governments in the 3rd world are often stupid and corrupt ^^^ Looks like a little line noise crept in. I don't think that was supposed to be there... Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From snow at smoke.suba.com Sat Aug 17 19:09:38 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 10:09:38 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens In-Reply-To: <32155657.53661@mail.aa.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Brian C. Lane wrote: > With all the recent talk about converted oil-rig DataHavens floating > around the oceans, fending off pirates, and Low-Orbit satellite > communications, I had a thought. > How about an orbiting DataHaven. No jurisdiction to bother with, > extremely difficult to get to (except by large governments...). You could > put together a couple of Linux boxes with a RAID system, some backups and a > large solar panel and have a very nice, secure DataHaven. > Granted, you wouldn't have all the fun of floating around the south > pacific fending off pirates and navies who are after your data, but it > would work. Might even be cheaper than outfitting the oil-ring with the > rate that they are tossing satellites into space. > If the HAM radio community can get a satellite into space, why not the > Cypherpunks/Linux communities? It is just as easy to take out a satelite in LOE as it is to sink an oil rig, plus swapping defective Hard Drives is a real bitch. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From molnard1 at nevada.edu Sat Aug 17 19:20:11 1996 From: molnard1 at nevada.edu (DAVID A MOLNAR) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 10:20:11 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Vincent Cate wrote: > > Robert Hettinga > > However, as Black Unicorn has noted here before, the Phillipenes are the > >only other country besides the USofA where citizens are taxed any income > >you get, no matter where on earth you actually earn it. > > It is not exactly that bad if you are outside the USA. I got ahold of the > IRS codes on this before I left the USA (so about 2 years ago). The rule > then was that the first $70,000 you earned was tax free if you were > outside the USA for 330 days or more of the year. From another x-pat in > Anguilla I heard that the $70 K had been increased. Is this so? Last I had heard, Congress was looking at eliminating the credit altogether. It's slightly misleading to call it "tax free", though; the way I understand it, it's not included in the IRS's estimation of your assets, but may play a factor in determining the final amount of $$$ you end up paying. Very rarely does it translate directly into a $70,000 break on your taxes, although it does help. At least that's the way it has been represented to me (albeit by an expatriate chapter of the American Businessmen's Association). There are no doubt rules and exceptions to what manner of income may be exempted, as well. It would be wonderful if the amount were increased. It would be preferable if the requirement to pay taxes at all were eliminated, but that would be asking too much of today's deficit-hungry, anti-"corporate welfare" environment... Not that it affects me anymore one way or the other, except insofar as it hinders the desireability of U.S. workers abroad. One wonders that whether the spread of such potential tax-avoidance schemes as ecash/data-havens may, er, restore U.S. competitiveness in a novel way. :-) -David Molnar From rwright at adnetsol.com Sat Aug 17 19:47:51 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 10:47:51 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens Message-ID: <199608180107.SAA21086@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 2 Jul 96, 17:06, Brian Lane wrote: > to have a backup satellite in case of a disaster. Once the Delta > Clipper is functional They did have that big wreck a couple of weeks ago. I am not sure of the salvage status. Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From dsmith at prairienet.org Sat Aug 17 20:07:36 1996 From: dsmith at prairienet.org (David E. Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:07:36 +0800 Subject: NT remailer Message-ID: <199608180134.UAA13028@bluestem.prairienet.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sat Aug 17 20:37:49 1996 > At 21:08 8/16/96, rednax wrote: > >Speaking of NT, I downloaded the full version of msie 3.0 the other day > but > >when I tried installing it, an error message came up saying that it > requires > >a Win95 or WinNT4.0 build of 1381 or higher. I am currently running NT > 4.0b > >that has a build of 1314, does anyone know of where is the upgrade or > >service packs(if available)? I have tried looking around microsoft.com, > but > >they neither provided any detail nor did they provide an e-mail. 1381 is the full release version of NT 4.0 - there probably isn't an upgrade or service pack. You'll have to lay down your cash just like the rest of us poor slobs. dave - ---- David E. Smith POB 324 Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702 dsmith at prairienet.org http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith send mail of 'send pgp-key' subject for my PGP public key "Welcome to the human race." -- Snake, _Escape from L.A._ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Automagically signed with Pronto Secure for Windows. iQEVAwUBMhZz8DVTwUKWHSsJAQEelQf+I7iHCNOwFnYn94uvxuczY0PTYP5nU9dp nQXVbdlVNO+vZH4y+9CLEhoaNbD+BLxSaULk6nAIUmvwyL9dniKJ9wmcUsAoJrk0 ML/najbDHQJ8BsSbV9ivyLJZxwwnCGmLHwcvchJtppLdXzkKFO0EwvY0LGtim4CZ uWjhKlI6rUo9trHeLtPCn/RuQheaT4x4I7TEA4OZkP46DnWRl/4288MPAcL4SxUO ojt/Bw8eAxhNOeBhuj7s2UaFmfCejH6ml1jLI/b7+a9tUvDnq8hPMlRAyVDzkj4I n9kHLvO0spjweXWNgj2NqDHfu2Ygtz+vMlpXJN4FUX++aYOlMOvytQ== =kUCL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From DMiskell at envirolink.org Sat Aug 17 20:07:37 1996 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:07:37 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Greetings from Whore.com Message-ID: <199608180122.VAA00582@envirolink.org> Nope. No web access. However, when school is back in session, and I get my radio show back and head back to the computer labs... Greetings from , Daniel. From maverick at interconnect.net Sat Aug 17 20:09:35 1996 From: maverick at interconnect.net (Sean Sutherland) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:09:35 +0800 Subject: Protecting floating datahavens? Message-ID: <19960818011847984.AAD128@maverick> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: stewarts at ix.netcom.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sat Aug 17 20:15:22 1996 > The basic risks with such things are: > 1) Getting governments to agree to leave you alone. If you're doing a > 2) Getting governments and other pirates to actually leave you alone. > 3) Making it work financially, for the proprietors and tenants/co-owners. > 4) Convincing investors that you're safe enough on 1) and 2) Auctually, the one real big problem is that the data is all in one place. Rememeber that the whole point of a data haven isn't secure backup -- it's secure storage. And if the place gets blown sky-high (which can easily be done discreetly and possibly made to look like an accident), all the data is going to be lost, and you're basically screwed. The only workable solution to this that I can see has nothing to do with floating countries or anything of the sort. Instead, the use of data-splitting programs could be used. I'm not all up on the security or reliability of these programs, so if I'm making unwarranted assumptions, guess I did a lot of typing for nothing. This has probably been proposed before, too, but what the hey... For example, lets say you set up an office in 100 countries (it would be more effective to have more, but let's say 100). Through the use of anonymous remailers and encryption, he could apply for a customer ID number and password. To avoid any possibility of forgery, such IDs could be prehaps 100kb-1Mb (this is just for confirmation of identy when sending the data into the data havens -- shorter IDs would be used for identifcation). Then, he could split the program into 100 parts, with (say) 70 parts being needed to restore the entire file. He would then encrypt and send each of these files to each remailer through the Internet. To get the data back, he would send in the ID and password, encrypted again, to the nessecary number of offices in order to retrieve the data. Payment, if nessecary, could be made by anonymous bank transfer or something like ecash. Proprietary encryption systems (PGP-like, with IDEA/RSA hybrid in it, but can accept 5000+ bit keys and padding) might be used, as well. This scheme has several pluses. One, it doesn't rely on any fancy legal manuevering with off-shore nationalities and crap. Second, it isn't very vunerable. They would need to get legal jurisdiction in 70 different countries to sieze the data, and then they have the encryption to deal with. Third, if there's any server problems, it wouldn't affect the entire system. Fourth, you don't have to attach missle launchers and hire a private security force to defend it. There are several problems, though. First, it relies on the Internet, something which is inherantly insecure anyway. Second, if someone's being wiretapped in their own country, then the whole effort is in vain. Third, it would be incredibly costly, but probably no more so than any kind of off-shore platforms. In fact, it would probably be cheaper. Any comments? - --- Sean Sutherland | GCS/C d- s+:+ a--- C+++ V--- P L E- W++ N++ K w o O-(++) Key: E43E6489 | M-- V PS+ PE++ Y PGP++ t--- 5+++ X++ R b++ DI+ D+ G e- Vote Browne '96 | h! !r y -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Key: finger or email w/ 'send key' in subj. http://www2.interconnect.net/maverick iQEVAwUBMhZuq1ZoKRrkPmSJAQE9QQf7B+ikk1/dFKyydIzQkGcfX8+srK5GeRlr 5IhEFkXJY34dI4Dqg/yKQ6m/XwRMyqPHxcyV6lR6qU9ngaawBWjd1Q+HBtCOzEs6 Ch8AgTq5CWox8/7FZKz32xGJCVpPJ+etzeJSK2kqKfPnTW+yhz7rch+DIvEJKnM1 ktlxsi/3c1Hn89OLZrCHUeJQqBMoU7rVnmVv6sfGVUQuwJ09yWT457HCN7dZbH1z Nrc+w7ewlxivH1r6KZ1DNk8BJrroQXD7mSHvXmEwyTiyr9DzaPhtlllarz/iPNFF 295F/4Cj9K2HiwJfKH7pDy60OKLBGP72xnc0cjxj8TlIp/KDY7VsPQ== =BNfl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rwright at adnetsol.com Sat Aug 17 20:13:07 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:13:07 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens Message-ID: <199608180102.SAA20983@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 17 Aug 96, 5:24, Brian C. Lane wrote: > > How about an orbiting DataHaven. No jurisdiction to bother with, > extremely difficult to get to (except by large governments...). > it would work. Might even be cheaper than outfitting the oil-rig > with the rate that they are tossing satellites into space. > > If the HAM radio community can get a satellite into space, why not > the > Cypherpunks/Linux communities? This is a fascinating concept that needs to be further researched. It would be interesting to do some cost examinations. I have always been behind any private space programs! I am even behind the Govt. Programs. Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Sat Aug 17 20:23:28 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:23:28 +0800 Subject: anonymizer and cookies Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960818014330.0099b85c@vertexgroup.com> is there anything definite about the Anonymizer and cookies? according to the DEC browser tester at http://www.research.digital.com/nsl/formtest/stats-by-test/NetscapeCookie.html shows some successful cookies passing through www.anonymizer.com and some bad cookies. What's the final word? From jsw at netscape.com Sat Aug 17 20:50:23 1996 From: jsw at netscape.com (Jeff Weinstein) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:50:23 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available Message-ID: <321677C2.663B@netscape.com> The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note that this is the released version of 3.0, so it will not expire. You can get it from: http://wwwus.netscape.com/eng/US-Current/ --Jeff -- Jeff Weinstein - Electronic Munitions Specialist Netscape Communication Corporation jsw at netscape.com - http://home.netscape.com/people/jsw Any opinions expressed above are mine. From m5 at tivoli.com Sat Aug 17 20:59:40 1996 From: m5 at tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:59:40 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <32167A0C.473C@tivoli.com> CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From zachb at netcom.com Sat Aug 17 21:32:58 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:32:58 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Brian Lane wrote: > On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Derek Bell wrote: > > > > > If the HAM radio community can get a satellite into space, why not the > > >Cypherpunks/Linux communities? > > > > Wow - I've been out of touch with space programmes in the last few > > years - which satellite was this? (The HAM radio one?) > > Embarrasingly enough, I cannot remember its name. I don't have a HAM > license (although I've studied for it -- just never took the test), but my > boss does. I think the satellite was launched in the mid to late 80's, and > it used for experimental communications. > The satellite is called OSCAR (Orbital-something-something-Amateur-Radio). The first one was launched in 1961, and 20 more have been launched since then, as the older ones wear out or there are advances in technology. --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From lzirko at c2.org Sat Aug 17 21:33:59 1996 From: lzirko at c2.org (Lou Zirko) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:33:59 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available Message-ID: <199608180226.TAA07994@infinity.c2.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: jsw at netscape.com, cypherpunks at toad.com, tomw at netscape.com Date: Sat Aug 17 21:26:37 1996 Thanks for the info. Downloading now and it appears to be going more smoothly than the time I got beta 6. No delays and good throughput. And I have yet to talk with someone that has successfully downloaded the `other guys` 128-bit version. I sure have not been able to! Thanks, Lou Zirko > The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable > strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note > that this is the released version of 3.0, so it will not expire. > You can get it from: > > http://wwwus.netscape.com/eng/US-Current/ > > --Jeff > > -- > Jeff Weinstein - Electronic Munitions Specialist > Netscape Communication Corporation > jsw at netscape.com - http://home.netscape.com/people/jsw > Any opinions expressed above are mine. > > Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko at c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMhZ/dstPRTNbb5z9AQEIggf/d0Q53oNSB3gM2Kk0XMsZhQVVd1gqYfoS sK1Ja5Qy6wqpzX452oEO21qetQsjs6yW19T3PdLqfr+YZW0zTbOcsbmUoNnzs8xF +2hfKdtRiMeZRo1HpKZ1kx3SUGR9SCLymVV0mWecOpwpdnj8i69K8Xv3eEEhbX4S aQJakxjr/qmjOtW5k5iuU93eosdhXjsHCkICY75YzuwX/VtkN3tMU28jsuYXGokf LjxuXBoTi/1+U80iSlCLYwXFrwoeZ+FTc2NACRPDJnAnLX4GbatLlLbP92918Xvt SeiVEeia46WQqRbJRHMnlif2z3gn1Fit0qdgn1U7f59aKUVgKQu95Q== =LIdQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From scraver at mnet.fr Sat Aug 17 21:47:50 1996 From: scraver at mnet.fr (Arnauld Dravet) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:47:50 +0800 Subject: Unix passwd-cracker online? In-Reply-To: <9608171527.AA26704@raptor.icubed.net> Message-ID: <321693CF.3B156C9C@mnet.fr> there's a new cracker under dos called John the Cracker, and coded by UCF96. It's optimized for Pentiumsand is better than cracker jack on a lot of points : can work with or without wordlists, and u can modify all what u want....approx 30% faster than cracker jack on a pentium (i run it at usually 4000 cps on a P90/32Mb ram and a 25Mb wordlist (yeah it's big)) scraver at mnet.fr From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Sat Aug 17 21:51:00 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:51:00 +0800 Subject: Possible opportunity for school recruitment Message-ID: <01I8EDF65HPS9JD95Q@mbcl.rutgers.edu> One wonders if they could be persuaded, in return for a donation of money or time, to include some cypherpunks-related web pages; these could include ones on PGP and on anonymous remailers, so they could later get email & ftp access and use these. -Allen > Centura > CYBERED BIG RIG TRUCKS INTERNET ACCESS TO SCHOOLS > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 Los Angeles Daily News > LOS ANGELES (Aug 17, 1996 00:00 a.m. EDT) -- Like some futuristic, > hi-tech bookmobile, "Ed" came calling on Charles Maclay Middle School > in suburban Los Angeles. [...] > The privately funded CyberEd program is designed to provide hands-on > Internet experience and advanced, on-line communications training. > "Ed" -- a veritable cyber classroom on wheels, offers personal > computers, Internet connectivity and CD-ROMS, as well as presentation > facilities, printing, faxing and video conferencing capabilities. [...] > Inside the yellow-and-black big rig in the Pacoima section of Los > Angeles, children and teachers alike tried their hand at surfing the > Net, pointing and clicking and generally immersing themselves in > everything from home pages of fellow students to cyberchats with > astronauts at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration > headquarters in Houston. [...] > Plank said a $3 million fund-raising campaign was under way to > bankroll a fleet of rigs modeled after "Ed," each with a different > technological focus -- manufacturing, media, biotechnical and other > disciplines. > CyberEd is funded by the MCI Foundation, the William G. McGowan > Charitable Fund, DSC Communications Corp., Milken Family Foundation, > Corning Incorporated and Microsoft. > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net From take at barrier-free.co.jp Sat Aug 17 22:24:10 1996 From: take at barrier-free.co.jp (Hayashi_Tsuyoshi) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 13:24:10 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <321677C2.663B@netscape.com> Message-ID: <199608180315.MAA15543@ns.barrier-free.co.jp> On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 18:54:10 -0700, Jeff Weinstein said: >The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable >strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note Exportable (non-strong crypto) version is also available from Japan? # I use Linux on i486. - Tsuyoshi Hayashi - PGP public key: http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/take/pgpkey - (CF 27 34 5B 46 FA 2A 12 D2 4C E3 F7 2A 45 E0 22) - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996) From ichudov at algebra.com Sat Aug 17 22:39:59 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 13:39:59 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! Message-ID: <199608180349.WAA01402@manifold.algebra.com> Cypherpunks -- Atfer much scientific research, I have finally found a way to restore any message given only its MD5 checksum. The method is based on the so called "enthropy restoration" algorithm. I have also written a libMD5hack library for restoring messages given their MD5 checksums. I plan to license the library for commercial use. The price of the library is to be determined. - Igor. From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Aug 17 22:50:45 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 13:50:45 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens Message-ID: <199608180358.UAA29680@mail.pacifier.com> At 06:32 PM 8/17/96 -0500, snow wrote: > > It is just as easy to take out a satelite in LOE as it is to sink an >oil rig, plus swapping defective Hard Drives is a real bitch. Hard drives don't work in a vacuum, at least conventional ones don't. (And I'm not aware of any hard drives which are designed to be permanently pressurized against a hard vacuum, either...) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 17 23:03:15 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:03:15 +0800 Subject: Software manpower exports and the power of governments Message-ID: <199608180349.UAA13056@dns2.noc.best.net> At 13:23 16/08/96 -0700, James A. Donald wrote: > > It is overwhelmingly clear that the question is simply who has the > > power? Those who wish to hire peoples services in order to produce > > wealth, or those who can command peoples services because they have > > guns? At 06:17 PM 8/17/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: > Are you suggesting that Indian programmers come to work with like > a chain gang, with armed government guard? No. I am suggesting that the more that power over business activities and decisions lies with those who do not need to make a profit or serve the customers needs, the less of value will be produced. > Look, governments in the 3rd world are often stupid and corrupt > -- no doubt that contributes to poverty, but that isn't the only > reason. I'm sure one of the reasons is cultural: Was the culture of the refugees who fled to Hong Kong any different from those who failed to escape from Communist China? --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 17 23:23:50 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:23:50 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto Message-ID: <199608180424.VAA27288@toad.com> At 02:18 PM 8/16/96 EDT, you wrote: >Bill Stewart writes: >> (If Clinton had said things like "Of course I tried to avoid the draft >> and smoked dope, I'm no fool" and had dropped the draft and the Drug War >> instead of supporting both after he was President, I might have > >There been no draft for about 20 years. What have _you been smoking? There's still draft registration. Sure, they don't currently ask that your body show up at Camp LeJeune for basic training, but they still insist that you register where you live and essentially give them permission to draft you if they feel like taking the political heat for doing so. It's illegal not to register if you're 18 and male. And they do occasionally track whether people are registered; college loan databases are used for it, and there are occasional mentions in the press that they've used other sources of lists-of-18-year-olds to "remind" people that they have to register, such as public school records. Some day that you're not too disgruntled, walk into a Post Office and look at the posters oon the wall. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From snow at smoke.suba.com Sun Aug 18 00:13:44 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:13:44 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens In-Reply-To: <199608180358.UAA29680@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > At 06:32 PM 8/17/96 -0500, snow wrote: > > It is just as easy to take out a satelite in LOE as it is to sink an > >oil rig, plus swapping defective Hard Drives is a real bitch. > Hard drives don't work in a vacuum, at least conventional ones don't. (And > I'm not aware of any hard drives which are designed to be permanently > pressurized against a hard vacuum, either...) I'll rephrase that then. It is a real bitch to swap out defective hardware on a satellite. I don't know much about sats, and I realize that most of them are built to specs that are insane compared to anything that runs dirtside, but (and I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong) most sats aren't expected to deal with the wide range of tasks that your average network server deals with, nor do they have anywhere NEAR the memory capacities that we are talking about. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Sun Aug 18 00:16:06 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:16:06 +0800 Subject: Software manpower exports and the power of governments In-Reply-To: <199608180349.UAA13056@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > At 13:23 16/08/96 -0700, James A. Donald wrote: > > At 06:17 PM 8/17/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: > > Look, governments in the 3rd world are often stupid and corrupt > > -- no doubt that contributes to poverty, but that isn't the only > > reason. I'm sure one of the reasons is cultural: > > Was the culture of the refugees who fled to Hong Kong any different > from those who failed to escape from Communist China? The individual can change far faster than the community, which is why immigrants to the US, for instance, do so much better than back home. It has, in the case of economic matters, to do with attitudes of government, the chambers of commerce and all the institutions that influence economic policy -- which can take long to change. Arun From Adamsc at io-online.com Sun Aug 18 00:20:36 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:20:36 +0800 Subject: Post Office restrictions Message-ID: I've told some people about a few of the loopholes mentioned on the list about the new post office restrictions on airmail packages. What's disturbing is that none of the people I'd talked to, all of whom are at least reasonably intelligent, had thought or heard, for instance, that PanAm103 only took 12 ounces or that someone could just send two packages. How does the news media justify its existence? (Down here, it seems to be serving as a propaganda arm for the Republicans) From Adamsc at io-online.com Sun Aug 18 00:24:32 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:24:32 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! Message-ID: <19960818051206140.AAC174@IO-ONLINE.COM> On 15 Aug 96 01:31:08 -0800, null at void.com wrote: >"In the 22 Jul 1996 issue of Fortune was an interesting look into the future >of automobile electronics, "Soon Your Dashboard Will Do Everything (Except >Steer)". " >From the control center, they can "electronically reach into the car" to >unlock the doors, or honk the horn and flash its lights." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ How long do you think it would be before thieves subverted this feature? >>>> It is extremely comforting to me -- I don't know about you -- to think >that GM will maintain a control center able to communicate with my auto >electronics. Shit, why not TRW? I'm just waiting for them to integrate with TRW. Then, with people they've determined can afford a new one, they can trigger the car to have mysterious engine failures... | Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp | Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Aug 18 00:43:44 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:43:44 +0800 Subject: BlackNet as a Distributed, Untraceable, Robust Data Haven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608180540.WAA16219@netcom14.netcom.com> >I have to speak up here and say that there is an actual working exemplar of >a distributed, untraceable data haven. While it lacks a robust _payment_ >mechanism, that is also untraceable, so does the "Visit Port Watson" >example (which has never actually existed). agree with Jim Bell that blacknet by any stretch of the imagination is not a "data haven". it is a service for selling/buying secrets. I'm quite surprised to see you misuse a term that I thought you had largely invented/promolgated ("data haven"). as far as I understand it, a "data haven" would function something like a remote disk drive. blacknet did not claim to have anything to do with storing data reliably like a drive does. the idea of highlighting the fact that Blacknet was possible however was something you certainly deserve all the notorious credit for others deserve the notorious credit for describing how a blacknet-like scheme could be foiled or at least made difficult through the use of widespread decoys. (and yet others deserve credit for breaking the key to that ) do you consider "decoys" "man in the middle attacks" as you wrote in your essay, or are you conveniently ignoring this devastating issue that was brought to your attention long ago? one of your repeated claims is that a reputation service would help identify the decoys, but I would like to see this happen in practice before I believe it. remember that reputation services themselves could be subject to infiltration and falsification. it becomes a "who will give reputations on the people who give reputations" infinite regress problem imho. also, I always liked the way that you tied in Blacknet to anonymous assassinations. or maybe that was just part of my imagination. anyway I'm surprised that you haven't collaborated with Jim Bell more who shares some of your ideas on the subject. I certainly give you huge credit for discovering/elucidating some of the more twisted uses of cyberspace long before they are actual operating enterprises. From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Aug 18 01:25:23 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 16:25:23 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! In-Reply-To: <199608180349.WAA01402@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <199608180556.WAA17567@netcom14.netcom.com> >Atfer much scientific research, I have finally found a way to restore >any message given only its MD5 checksum. uhm, congratulations >I plan to license the library for commercial use. uhm, a slight kink you don't seem to have considered and might want to ruminate on-- if MD5 is broken, no one will anymore have any use for anything associated with it maybe next time when you break a code and want to make some $$$, sell your solution in secret to the people who patented it!! cryptoblackmail!!! wheeeeeee!!! crypto is so much fun!!! From vznuri at netcom.com Sun Aug 18 02:24:01 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 17:24:01 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! -- JOKE In-Reply-To: <199608180610.BAA02817@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <199608180621.XAA19338@netcom14.netcom.com> april 1 is not very near on my calendar, wiseguy. Subject: Re: MD5 completely broken! To: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:10:33 -0500 (CDT) From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > this is front page of new york times fodder for sure > if what you claim is true. in fact it is a *major* > *major* breakthrough if real. I would expect many > months of press fallout based on it. in fact if > for real, you are guaranteed instant worldwide fame. I agree, but my message was a joke. - Igor. From mccoy at communities.com Sun Aug 18 03:25:39 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:25:39 +0800 Subject: Ad Hoc Bay Area Cypherpunks Thing--Sat., 24 Aug, 3 pm, Menlo Park Message-ID: > On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > There is no Cypherpunks event scheduled for that Saturday, but we can have > > an ad hoc gathering, informally arranged. I suggest meeting at 3 p.m. at > > Cody's Bookstore, on El Camino Real in Menlo Park (hard to miss). Or at the > > coffee shop next to it...either should be sufficient Schelling points to > > Do you mean Kepler's? That's the one right near Menlo Park caltrain > station; the coffee shop next to it is Cafe Borone. Get the Mocha. [Typing from the courtyard outside Cafe Barone (love that Ricochet...)] For those needing better directions, Cafe Barone/Keplers is at the Menlo Park Center, at the corner of El Camino and Ravenswood in Menlo Park... jim From ogren at cris.com Sun Aug 18 03:30:17 1996 From: ogren at cris.com (David F. Ogren) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:30:17 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! Message-ID: <199608180701.DAA13334@cliff.cris.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sun Aug 18 02:56:44 1996 > > >Atfer much scientific research, I have finally found a way to restore > >any message given only its MD5 checksum. > > uhm, congratulations > > > maybe next time when you break a code and want to make > some $$$, sell your solution in secret > to the people who patented it!! > Not to mention that this is complete nonsense and a troll. No matter how weak the MD5 algorithm may or may not be, there are an infinite number of possible messages for each checksum. And thus the original message could NEVER be restored. Its as secure as a OTP. That's why its called a 'one-way' hash function. Not to mention the fact that he misspelled both 'entropy' and 'after'. P.S. But imagine if it was true! MD5 would become the ultimate compression algorithm. Any message could be reduced to a 128 bit archive. - -- David F. Ogren | ogren at concentric.net | "A man without religion is like a fish PGP Key ID: 0x6458EB29 | without a bicycle" - ------------------------------|---------------------------------------- Don't know what PGP is? | Need my public key? It's available Send a message to me with the | by server or by sending me a message subject GETPGPINFO | with the subject GETPGPKEY -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMha+reSLhCBkWOspAQFvkQf+PE2+p8gLJ5Fcg64fKogAaad1v0KUAm6N PDWKqOF87hr4GK7Je0TnflQ5640w11CbqnhQeTeuMZ1vypJ+OMod7riY+okd4VQL tLaAA91EuzDLUnSnh3VT16MmN152RTWWS0fufASdJPw2aknhC5NA8kp+0ryQUo+f zICE619/4I0Hjz6qwIzuEYD7tMW1OEz5KGRpyLnZaiOFXObxLHQ4/QwUuJVfLrY0 GrKxNrmtIMiFyHqksbmg22G8f9SsziKa8TjoHDrq2UIL7ForTneC/C20HTOVh9iS 6+C9u2Wij+AFEgPQSZMyxP0Wb8m20DcoeOpnzbBLBVw9BfiqNApvUQ== =Nu+T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at replay.com Sun Aug 18 03:36:34 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:36:34 +0800 Subject: Data_havens Message-ID: <199608180657.IAA05470@basement.replay.com> > Auctually, the one real big problem is that the data is all in one place. I would rephrase this slightly to read "the data, or knowledge of its location, is all in one place." Sure, with a satellite, both the data and the info required to access it is in the same physical location; it's a target as soon as someone tracks a transmission to its source. But I think there will be problems, even with distributed systems, for a haven under the control of any single entity. Whether that control is implicit, such as the coercive force of the host governments, or the explicit policies of the owner, it will tend to force patterns in data storage. This could become problematic. [snip] > The only workable solution to this that I can see has nothing to do with > floating countries or anything of the sort. Instead, the use of > data-splitting programs could be used. I'm not all up on the security or > reliability of these programs, so if I'm making unwarranted assumptions, > guess I did a lot of typing for nothing. This has probably been proposed > before, too, but what the hey... Actually, Eric Hughes gave an inspirational talk on this very subject at DEF CON IV. I have to say that I'm a convert, now. Time to go forth and make the world safe for crypto-anarchy. Much of what I'm going to say is influenced by that talk. My only regret is that I didn't get his autograph. Enough about that... Basically, I think allowing a single entity to create such a network may lead to a dangerous concentration of information. If we are to assume that an attack on a data haven will involve the resources of large, unfriendly governments, along with the full legal (and extra-legal) powers of said governments...then it becomes possible to imagine a scenario where one's "network technique" is _studied_ in order to find possible caches for servers in the data-haven network. Once the location of the servers/caches are known, the network becomes vulnerable to seizure. In friendly jurisdictions, subopenas and warrants may be issued. In unfriendly or extra-jurisdictional circumstances (e.g. space), one uses anti-satellite measures, black-bag jobs, bribes, or, heck, let's be paranoid and say they can send TEMPEST-equipped vans to sit outside and read the hard drives directly. Even if seizure is made impossible, enough heat can be brought to bear to limit the growth of one's haven_net and concentrate new nodes in certain specific jurisdictions...which of course become more attractive targets for seizure tactics. The problem is that a single entity may tend to keep records of what nodes are situated where. Not necessarily in the protocols, either. All those computers will need servicing, upgrading, network links, etc. etc. This requires some kind of a control and payment structure. Setting up a new node is particularly hazardous, especially after initial deployment. To make matters worse, once a node is found, it may leak information about the rest of the network (traffic analysis, anyone?). What is more, it leaves open the door for truly stupid acts, like keeping a network map where it might be found in case of a search. Don't laugh. A good deal of design will need to go into a data haven; if the documents are not destroyed or secured in some way, they could bring down the whole system. > For example, lets say you set up an office in 100 countries (it would be > more effective to have more, but let's say 100). Through the use of This can be a double-edged sword. 100 countries means 100 _different_ points for an adversary to bribe/steal/warrant his way onto a point in one's haven_net. Sure, maybe he can't get _all_ of them, but what can he do with the nodes he does have? Note that the haven operator may not necessarily know a jurisdiction or node has been compromised; how many times have you detected the NSA reading your personal e-mail? (on second thought, don't answer that question :) I honestly believe it is necessary to involve mass numbers of _individuals_ or small groups in a sort of Godwin-esque federation for a robust, reliable, and unkillable haven_net. This implies a certain degree of flux on the part of the network; nodes have the right to secede at any time. The trick is to make it financially rewarding to be a part of the network, so the number of new nodes exceeds the number of imprisoned crypto-rebels/dilettantes/students looking for a buck/other former node-type people. A "data haven", then, in the sense of a corporation which manages and serves the stuff, is more of a coordinator or a broker than a warehouser. It acts as a front end to such a distributed system, and assumes the risk if the client's data should fall through the cracks. The added value over entering the system oneself comes from the technical assurance and insulation from legal risk. [description of obtaining user ID and password thru anon remailers] Not such a bad idea, but I don't know about tying the ID and password to a specific number of nodes. Certainly it minimizes leakage of one's client list; certain nodes only serve a particular subset of clients. What happens if enough of the client's nodes are seized? Also, what about spoofing and lost identities? Sure, the protocols involved between haven and client may offer no chance of either, but what about the client's network? Just because they are paranoid enough to use a data-haven does not mean they are clueful enough to encrypt that modem link they may be using for SLIP, PPP, or whatever. > To get the data back, he would send in the ID and password, encrypted > again, to the nessecary number of offices in order to retrieve the data. One of the ideas advanced at DEF CON, and one I really liked, was to make the data retreivable simply by knowing its MD5 hash. No need for identies, no worrying about keeping a meta-secret or nym secret...just keeping or revealing the hash for file-by-file protection. Now, of course, what if the user loses his hash? > Payment, if nessecary, could be made by anonymous bank transfer or > something like ecash. I like the idea of allowing a node to accept payment up front, or accept for free (but charge a fee to downloaders). Each node can set its own prices in terms of e$/MB or other units (you like octets? megawords?) for a given amount of data. I'd like to accept "in-demand" data (Quake alpha, anyone?) on a 'consignment basis', but can't figure out how to ensure the node pays the original uploader w/o blowing away anonymity. Anyone got a paper lying around which could help (beg beg beg)? Anonymous bank transfer is probably a good idea, too, but it can be a major hassle. Not just from the State, either; how do you keep track of what money transfer came from which nym? > > Proprietary encryption systems (PGP-like, with IDEA/RSA hybrid in it, but > can accept 5000+ bit keys and padding) might be used, as well. IMHO, this kind of application will need to be built anew, and built well. Becoming a new node should be an install-and-forget process. This requires certain features. Most importantly, the node's owner should not known, and should not be _able_ to know what exactly he or she is storing. I haven't looked at the new steg and crypto packages for linux, but that's about what I'm thinking of. > > This scheme has several pluses. One, it doesn't rely on any fancy legal > manuevering with off-shore nationalities and crap. Second, it isn't very None of that is really necessary for a data haven, anyway. Why bother, when the whole point is to disappear it from physical space in the first place?? It simply allows Them to have a single point of attack. > vunerable. They would need to get legal jurisdiction in 70 different > countries to sieze the data, and then they have the encryption to deal > with. Unfortunately, it also means if they get jurisdiction in even one of those 70 countries, you are in trouble. Even if the encryption is good, just looking at how much data is on the server, and from where, could be most unfortunate for business. There's a more serious concern in reliability, too; if one uses a data-splitting scheme, capturing enough servers has a probability of removing access to data. That's bad for business. > Third, if there's any server problems, it wouldn't affect the entire > system. Fourth, you don't have to attach missle launchers and hire a No, but again the splitting scheme needs to be smart. (M, N) thresholds would be good; losing one server wouldn't mean losing the data. It also forces Them to capture N servers instead of just one. > private security force to defend it. There are several problems, though. > First, it relies on the Internet, something which is inherantly insecure > anyway. Second, if someone's being wiretapped in their own country, then > the whole effort is in vain. Third, it would be incredibly costly, but It is not necessary to obtain a warrant to wiretap. We know that. The system then relies upon the security of the locations of the servers. I am very skeptical of the idea that this can be acheived with a single organization. > probably no more so than any kind of off-shore platforms. In fact, it > would probably be cheaper. What we really need is a robust architecture, like Eric Hughes' "Universal Piracy Network" which is as popular and as prevalent as is today. We need to make it easy, simple, profitable, and most of all, _FUN_. Getting people financially dependent on such a system wouldn't hurt, either. > > Any comments? I have a vision...and I caught it just recently...of a day where I will be able to sell my disk space to the highest bidder, and know I am helping the cause of freedom and frictionless data. A day where I can go forward and create value from "garbage" - unused cycles, unused HD space, underutilized graphics cards and coprocessors mouldering away in closets. Where people spontaneously join haven_nets because it's "cool", or "sensible", or any of the other justifications people make when they're jumping off the cliff with the other lemmings. When participation is a mouse-click away. When the NSA advises Congresscritters on how to best distribute their files, and spends most of its time figuring out cost/benefit analyses of the myriad haven_nets, and actively contributing its own latest, greatest, and "just unclassified" entry into the market for server software. When no one will be able to imagine having a file without splitting it across half a dozen countries and half a hundred computers. Where it will be those who want un-encrypted data who are "strange" and "old fogies", because distributed data is _orthodox_, and the anonymity and e-cash is just a simple little feature, along with the rest, and hardly worth mentioning in and of itself. In short, no where. Utopia. But a nice vision to get wild-eyed and hand-waving about just the same. From dfloyd at io.com Sun Aug 18 03:48:02 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:48:02 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens In-Reply-To: <199608180358.UAA29680@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <199608180736.CAA08078@xanadu.io.com> > > At 06:32 PM 8/17/96 -0500, snow wrote: > > > > > It is just as easy to take out a satelite in LOE as it is to sink an > >oil rig, plus swapping defective Hard Drives is a real bitch. > > Hard drives don't work in a vacuum, at least conventional ones don't. (And > I'm not aware of any hard drives which are designed to be permanently > pressurized against a hard vacuum, either...) Also, the corona effect is a real bear too. Hard drives wouldn't be able to have the little bit of air the heads float on, and contact at 3600/7200 rpm is not good for the drives. Then you get hard radiation that plays hob with the circutry. Even if nobody attacked the LOE satellite, there is always space debris. > > Jim Bell > jimbell at pacifier.com > From Adamsc at io-online.com Sun Aug 18 04:09:51 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:09:51 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof Message-ID: <19960818074654046.AAA160@IO-ONLINE.COM> On 15 Aug 96 20:55:12 -0800, molnard1 at nevada.edu wrote: >> This relates to something I have been wondering about: If one could >> get one's company to pay one in electronic cash, what is to stop one >> from piling the coins in a Datahaven somewhere (assuming one existed >> that would be usable for these purposes) and say to the IRS: Money? >> What money? Can you find any of my money? I, uhh... lost it! Yeah, >> that's it!! > What is to stop the IRS from pointing out that you received the >money from your employer? Maybe you could convince them you were unable >to pay, but that would require squirreling away(and refraining from >using) all your assets. On the other hand, if your employer was willing to do some sneaky ecash stuff, then it might get interesting. Alternately, how about having an off-shore bank that supposedly has very high interest rates and fees. "Sorry, this is all I have left" | Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp | Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" From vince at offshore.com.ai Sun Aug 18 04:27:13 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:27:13 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, DAVID A MOLNAR wrote: > On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Vincent Cate wrote: > > It is not exactly that bad if you are outside the USA. I got ahold of the > > IRS codes on this before I left the USA (so about 2 years ago). The rule > > then was that the first $70,000 you earned was tax free if you were > > outside the USA for 330 days or more of the year. From another x-pat in > > Anguilla I heard that the $70 K had been increased. > Is this so? Last I had heard, Congress was looking at eliminating > the credit altogether. It's slightly misleading to call it "tax free", > though; the way I understand it, it's not included in the IRS's > estimation of your assets, but may play a factor in determining the final > amount of $$$ you end up paying. Very rarely does it translate directly > into a $70,000 break on your taxes, although it does help. I am sure one of the 100+ X-Pats on this island would have been talking about it if this were going to be eliminated, and I have not heard anything. So I am sure it is still there. But you can call 1-800-tax-1040 to check. After they finish with this question, ask them what it means in the tax code where it says that income taxes are "voluntary complience". Have your Websters open to the definition of voluntary. Always good for a laugh. The idea was no taxes on the first $70,000 earned outside the USA. Dividends and interest were not counted as "earned". Having $70,000 that you can earn tax free will never translate into a $70,000 break on your taxes (unless they get to 100% tax rate). -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From gbroiles at netbox.com Sun Aug 18 04:30:49 1996 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:30:49 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960818082658.006e7eec@mail.io.com> At 10:49 PM 8/17/96 -0500, Igor Chudov wrote: >Cypherpunks -- > >Atfer much scientific research, I have finally found a way to restore >any message given only its MD5 checksum. The method is based on the >so called "enthropy restoration" algorithm. I have also written a >libMD5hack library for restoring messages given their MD5 checksums. > >I plan to license the library for commercial use. > >The price of the library is to be determined. Research, my ass. You should stop drinking. -- Greg Broiles |"Post-rotational nystagmus was the subject of gbroiles at netbox.com |an in-court demonstration by the People http://www.io.com/~gbroiles |wherein Sgt Page was spun around by Sgt |Studdard." People v. Quinn 580 NYS2d 818,825. From dfloyd at io.com Sun Aug 18 04:33:01 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:33:01 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! In-Reply-To: <19960818051206140.AAC174@IO-ONLINE.COM> Message-ID: <199608180819.DAA00270@xanadu.io.com> > > I'm just waiting for them to integrate with TRW. Then, with people > they've determined can afford a new one, they can trigger the car to have > mysterious engine failures... Or the minute one falls behind on their bill, the engine doesn't start. This is legal, IIRC (I am not sure of the exact court case, but one company had a software vendor disable their sales software by remote for not paying their bill, and the court upheld the software vendor. I don't remember the specifics on this.) From bjonkman at sobac.com Sun Aug 18 04:54:02 1996 From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:54:02 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate Message-ID: <9608180913.AB01288@xenon.xe.com> > >At 21:55 8/8/96, i am not a number! wrote: > >>CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the > >>central f'way in SF will have information mailed to them > >>regarding the quake retrofit How? Their license plates have > >>been photographed. > At 10:45 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Lucky wrote: > >You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. Maybe '!number' was making it up, but license plate photography exists today in the Great White North. A new freeway is being built through Brampton, the 407ETR, for Express Toll Route. At each on and off ramp there are electronic pickups and video cameras. You can subscribe to the toll by buying a transducer that sits behind your rear-view mirror, signals from which will be picked up by the the toll gates as you enter and leave the freeway. If you elect not to subscribe your license plate will be photographed and you'll get a bill in the mail. If you elect not to pay the bill you'll be nabbed for it the next time you go to get your drivers license or car registration renewed... Big Brother is not only watching, he's recording your location and destination, measuring your distance travelled, and charging you for the privilege of driving... ===== Bob Jonkman SOBAC Microcomputer Services 4 Gold Pine Court mailto:bjonkman at sobac.com Brampton ON L6S 2K6 Canada Voice: 905-793-4537 Networking -- Office & Business Automation -- Consulting Key fingerprint: 9F AF A6 AC B5 67 BC 10 89 73 7C F0 CB 27 03 17 finger -l bjonkman at sobac.com or send mail with subject 'send key' From fstuart at vetmed.auburn.edu Sun Aug 18 04:57:18 1996 From: fstuart at vetmed.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:57:18 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <199608180942.EAA08054@snoopy.vetmed.auburn.edu> >CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" >to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. I certainly don't support the person or people responsible for this and it may very well end up having an overall negative impact. Since it has happened, however, I think those in a position to do so should start with the spin control. Some suggestions: The fact that even the U.S. Justice Department is unable to adequately protect it's own site from intruders underscores the need for widely- available strong encryption. While this is certainly a major embarrassment for the Justice Department, at least the mandatory "key escrow" program the Clinton administration is insisting upon has not yet been implemented; no private citizens' data appears to have been compromised this time. It's doubtful that a new law or government bureaucracy would have prevented this from happening but it's entirely possible that tools such as strong encryption could have. It's ironic that the U.S. Government is focusing on the former while fighting use of the latter. This event could potentially draw a lot of interest from the general public. Since we're dealing with public perceptions largely created through the main- stream media, it's important to remember that "sound bites" are more important than carefully reasoned arguments. | (Douglas) Hofstadter's Law: | It always takes longer than you expect, even Frank Stuart | when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. From tcmay at got.net Sun Aug 18 05:05:17 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 20:05:17 +0800 Subject: Ad Hoc Bay Area Cypherpunks Thing--Sat., 24 Aug, 3 pm, Menlo Park Message-ID: At 9:17 PM 8/17/96, Simon Spero wrote: >On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > >> There is no Cypherpunks event scheduled for that Saturday, but we can have >> an ad hoc gathering, informally arranged. I suggest meeting at 3 p.m. at >> Cody's Bookstore, on El Camino Real in Menlo Park (hard to miss). Or at the >> coffee shop next to it...either should be sufficient Schelling points to > >Do you mean Kepler's? That's the one right near Menlo Park caltrain >station; the coffee shop next to it is Cafe Borone. Get the Mocha. > Yeah, I was thinking of Kepler's. (Cody's is in Berkeley, of course.) Once again: KEPLER'S BOOKS. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From usura at replay.com Sun Aug 18 05:37:46 1996 From: usura at replay.com (Alex de Joode) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 20:37:46 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available Message-ID: <199608181037.MAA14188@basement.replay.com> Jeff Weinstein (jsw at netscape.com) wrote: : The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable : strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note : that this is the released version of 3.0, so it will not expire. : You can get it from: Would it be possible to both supply an Linux ELF and a.out binary ? : http://wwwus.netscape.com/eng/US-Current/ : --Jeff -- Alex de Joode | Replay IP Service & Web DZign -- The Netherlands usura at replay.com | http://www.replay.com mailto:info at replay.com From jsw at netscape.com Sun Aug 18 05:59:26 1996 From: jsw at netscape.com (Jeff Weinstein) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 20:59:26 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <199608181037.MAA14188@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <3216F54C.425C@netscape.com> Alex de Joode wrote: > > Jeff Weinstein (jsw at netscape.com) wrote: > > : The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable > : strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note > : that this is the released version of 3.0, so it will not expire. > : You can get it from: > > Would it be possible to both supply an Linux ELF and a.out binary ? No, we will only be supplying ELF. Since linux is not officially supported, we really don't have the resources to do multiple versions. --Jeff -- Jeff Weinstein - Electronic Munitions Specialist Netscape Communication Corporation jsw at netscape.com - http://home.netscape.com/people/jsw Any opinions expressed above are mine. From mycroft at actrix.gen.nz Sun Aug 18 07:31:56 1996 From: mycroft at actrix.gen.nz (Paul Foley) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:31:56 +0800 Subject: _Secret Power_ (re: "world communications being monitored") Message-ID: <199608180827.UAA07333@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz> Forewords from Nicky Hager's book _Secret Power_: Once upon a time life was easy for the intelligence community. Michael Joeseph Savage made a mark in the sands of history with his `where Britain stands we stand' declaration. It was only right that we saw the world through British eyes and, when Britain retreated, only sensible that we should go all the way with LBJ as an Australian Prime Minister (in whose memory a swimming pool in Melbourne was named) once declared. The cold war kept us in line and on line. In the mid-1980s we bucked the system. We may have been ahead of our time on matters nuclear, but we were out of step with what was called the `Western Alliance'. It took a break with the United States and Britain to make the people of New Zealand aware that we were part of an international intelligence organisation which had its roots in a different world order and which could command compliance from us while withholding from us the benefits of others' intelligence. Life at the time was full of unpleasant surprises. State-sponsored terrorism was a crime against humanity as long as it wasn't being practiced by the allies, when it was studiously ignored. In the national interest it became necessary to say `ouch' and frown and bear certain reprisals of our intelligence partners. We even went the length of building a satellite station at Waihopai. But it was not until I read this book that I had any idea that we had been committed to an international integrated electronic network. It was with some apprehension that I learned Nicky Hager was researching the activity of our intelligence community. He has long been a pain in the establishment's neck. Unfortunately for the establishment, he is engaging, thorough, unthreatening, with a dangerously ingenuous appearance, and an atonishing number of people have told him things that I, as Prime Minister in charge of the intelligence services, was never told. There are also many things with which I am familiar. I couldn't tell him which was which. Nor can I tell you. But it is an outrage that I and other ministers were told so little, and this raises the question of to whom those concerned saw themselves ultimately anwserable. It also raises the question as to why we persist with the old order of things. New Zealand doesn't have much in common with Major's Britain and probably less with Blair's Britain. Are we philosophically in tune with Clinton's USA? Is he? Does all of that prejudice our new orientation to Asia? There will be two responses to this book. One will take the easy course of dumping on Hager. He is quite small and can easily be dumped on. The other will be to challenge the existing assumptions and to have a rational debate on security and intelligence. I have always enjoyed taking the easier course but we may have been the poorer for it. David Lange Prime Minister of New Zealand 1984-89 ------------------------------------- The world of signals intelligence is one that governments have traditionally tried to keep hidden from public view. The secrecy attached to it by the United Kingdom and its allies in the Second World War, particularly codebreaking operations, carried over into the Cold War. Whether their adversaries were attacking them with weapons or diplomatic strategies, the concern was the same --- that revelations about methods and successes would lead an adversary to change codes and ciphers and deny the codebreaker the ability to read the foe's secret communications. Another aspect of the Second World War that carried over into the Cold War era was the close co-operation between five countries --- the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand --- formalised with the UKUSA Security Agreement on 1948. Although the treaty has never been made public, it has become clear that it not only provided for a division of collection tasks and sharing of the product, but for common guidelines for the classification and protection of the intelligence collected as well as for personal security. But over the last 50 years, codebreaking has become far more difficult, and often impossible --- due to the use of computer based encryption. At the same time, the interception of unencrypted communications (for example, air-to-ground communications) and other electronic signals --- particularly radar emanations and missile telemetry --- has grown dramatically in importance. This expanded role for signals intelligence was made evident in the construction and operation of a vast networkof ground stations spread across the world, aircraft equipped with intercept antenna patrolling the skies (and sometimes being shot down), and eventually the launch of eavesdropping satellites. This activity did not escape the notice of the Soviet Union, which also was busy establishing its own elaborate network. It also became very evident to outsider observers that signals intelligence was an important and very expensive part of the Cold War. That signals intelligence became more noticeable did not, for many years, alter the attitudes of the authorities about the necessity for strict secrecy. In the United States, the National Security Agency, established in 1952, was officially acknowledged only in 1957. For years, what were well known to be US operated signals intelligence stations have been officially described as facilities engaged in the research of `electronic phenomena' or the `rapid-relay of communications.' It took the US over 20 years after the Soviet Union obtained detailed information on a US signals intelligence satellite even to acknowledge the existance of such satellites. Other nations have been equally reticent --- the very existance of Canada's Communications Security Establishment was first revealed by the media in 1975. In recent years some of the UKUSA governments have been somewhat more forthcoming about signals intelligence sometimes with regard to historical events, sometimes with respect to organisation structure, and sometimes about some aspect of current operations. But secrecy is still intense (although no more than in other countries). What the public does know, it knows largely because of the efforts of industrious researchers who have collected and analysed obscure documents and media accounts, and interviewed present and former intelligence officers who can shed light on signals intelligence operations. These researchers have included Desmond Ball in Australia, James Bamford in the United States and Duncan Campbell in the United Kingdom. Nicky Hager's _Secret Power_ earns him a place in that select company. Indeed, he has produced the most detailed and up-to-date account in existance of the work of any signals intelligence agency. His expos� of the organisation and operations of New Zealand's Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) is a masterpiece of investigative reporting and provides a wealth of information. The reader of Mr Hager's book will learn about not just New Zealand's signals intelligence activities, but those of its partners. Specifically, the reader will learn about the origins, the evolution, and internal structure of the GCSB; the Tangimoana and Waihopai ground stations and their operations; New Zealand's role in the UKUSA alliance, and some of the signals intelligence operations of the other UKUSA nations. _Secret Power_ also serves as a fascinating case study of the role of a junior partner in an intelligence alliance. Some, undoubtedly, will object to the unprecendented detail to be found in the book, taking the traditional view that secrecy is far more important than public understanding of how tax dollars are being spent on intelligence. Certainly, revelations that defeat the purpose of legitimate intelligence activities are unfortunate and waste those tax dollars. But the UKUSA governments and their intelligence services have been far too slow in declassifying information that no longer needs to be secret and far too willing to classify information that need not be restricted. A Canadian newspaper made the point rather dramatically a few years ago --- after being denied access to a Canadian signals intelligence facility, the paper promptly purchased on the open market, and published, a satellite photograph of the facility, and its antenna system, first obtained by a Soviet spy satellite. There are many individuals within the services who would prefer greater openness, but they frequently cannot overcome the intense opposition of those preaching the need for tight secrecy. The internal bureaucratic battle to get information declassified can be a long and intense one and those opposing disclosure have an advantage --- often they are those in charge of security, who have developed a mindset which views any revelation as damaging. In the meantime, the public is kept in the dark. A free press, as manifested in books such as Mr Hager's, is large step towards alleviating the problem. Jeffrey T. Richelson Alexandria, Virginia May, 1996 Jeffrey Richelson is a leading authority on United States intelligence agencies and author of _America's Secret Eyes in the Sky_ and co-author of _The Ties That Bind_. From m5 at tivoli.com Sun Aug 18 07:40:39 1996 From: m5 at tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:40:39 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! In-Reply-To: <199608180349.WAA01402@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <32170F4A.56F2@tivoli.com> Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Atfer much scientific research, I have finally found a way to restore > any message given only its MD5 checksum.... > > The price of the library is to be determined. I'll trade ya my bridge for it. (It's in New York now; I'd have to go get it.) ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From pjn at nworks.com Sun Aug 18 08:23:58 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 23:23:58 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens Message-ID: In> How about an orbiting DataHaven. No jurisdiction to bother with, In> extremely difficult to get to (except by large governments...). You In> could put together a couple of Linux boxes with a RAID system, some In> backups and a large solar panel and have a very nice, secure DataHaven. I bet one of those "weather" satalites would blow that thing out of the air in no time flat... :) P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... "Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes." ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 18 08:51:39 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 23:51:39 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! In-Reply-To: <199608180701.DAA13334@cliff.cris.com> Message-ID: "David F. Ogren" writes: > P.S. But imagine if it was true! MD5 would become the ultimate compression > algorithm. Any message could be reduced to a 128 bit archive. The following is true. There used to be company in Silicon Vallye that marketed compression software guaranteed to reduce any file to no more than 128K, no matter how large the input. That side worked. The decompression side didn't. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From scraver at mnet.fr Sun Aug 18 09:33:00 1996 From: scraver at mnet.fr (Arnauld Dravet) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 00:33:00 +0800 Subject: Netscape under Linux (Vs microsoft) In-Reply-To: <199608181037.MAA14188@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <32173372.25BEFC52@mnet.fr> Jeff Weinstein wrote: > > Alex de Joode wrote: > > > > Jeff Weinstein (jsw at netscape.com) wrote: > > > > : The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable > > : strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note > > : that this is the released version of 3.0, so it will not expire. > > : You can get it from: > > > > Would it be possible to both supply an Linux ELF and a.out binary ? > > No, we will only be supplying ELF. Since linux is not officially > supported, we really don't have the resources to do multiple versions. > > --Jeff > > -- yesterday i was in #linux on irc , and several pplreports some bugs with netscape under linux.i got some too many times a day... Netscape crashes when i try to load some HTML pages...i assume it shouldn't and we got ansolutly no probs with Netscape under windows. SO we just wondered if it's not a kind of support to micro$oft. Maybe Linux is 'not officially supported', but have to know unix is the most used OS, and that since Linux is free, many people use it. So when will you accept to recognize Linux as an entire OS ?? i just reinstalled Windows95 on a HD yesterday and it has already crached 2x. Windows is expensive and it crashes. Why should we pay for a fucked 'OS' ? Arnauld Dravet scraver at mnet.fr sChTrOuMf on Undernet From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 18 09:33:08 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 00:33:08 +0800 Subject: Credit enforcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alan Horowitz writes: > I thought that classical libertarians agree that the enforcement of > contracts is a proper function of the government. Then your classical libertatians are fucking statists. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 18 09:33:16 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 00:33:16 +0800 Subject: Anguilla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vincent Cate writes: > The rumor is that Cable and Wireless bribed the previous government with > things like a free loan of a bulldozer worth $500/day for a couple weeks > to get their 30 year monopoly contract. Given that CandW is making > millions each year, seems they got off cheap, if true. Claim is that the > UK does not mind their companies bribing officials, and CandW does it alot > all around the world. I don't see a problem with that. All governments are corrupt by definition. As far as I know, the U.S. is the only country in the world prohibiting its businesses from bribing foreign officials with the silly law known as the Foreign Corrupt Practices act (as if U.S. politicians didn't take bribes!) The results are: U.S. businesses not being competetive in the international markets where bribes are the traditional part of doing business, and a significant paperwork/compliance cost in all other international markets. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Sun Aug 18 09:53:49 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 00:53:49 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! In-Reply-To: <32170F4A.56F2@tivoli.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Mike McNally wrote: > > I'll trade ya my bridge for it. (It's in New York now; I'd have to > go get it.) Is this bridge SNMP aware? --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From janke at unixg.ubc.ca Sun Aug 18 09:55:57 1996 From: janke at unixg.ubc.ca (janke at unixg.ubc.ca) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 00:55:57 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <321677C2.663B@netscape.com> Message-ID: How's that database so that people in Canada can download the 128-bit version coming along? Leonard From qut at netcom.com Sun Aug 18 10:23:28 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Roger Healy OBC) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 01:23:28 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <3216F54C.425C@netscape.com> Message-ID: <199608181505.IAA08709@netcom.netcom.com> > Alex de Joode wrote: > > > > Jeff Weinstein (jsw at netscape.com) wrote: > > > > : The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable > > : strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note > > : that this is the released version of 3.0, so it will not expire. > > : You can get it from: > > > > Would it be possible to both supply an Linux ELF and a.out binary ? > > No, we will only be supplying ELF. Since linux is not officially > supported, we really don't have the resources to do multiple versions. ELF is cool. What about BSD? I've seen how you support BSDI so the binary should work with FreeBSD or NetBSD.? -- Love, Qut at netcom.com From jimbell at pacifier.com Sun Aug 18 11:00:11 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 02:00:11 +0800 Subject: BlackNet as a Distributed, Untraceable, Robust Data Haven Message-ID: <199608181532.IAA18019@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:40 PM 8/17/96 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > >>I have to speak up here and say that there is an actual working exemplar of >>a distributed, untraceable data haven. While it lacks a robust _payment_ >>mechanism, that is also untraceable, so does the "Visit Port Watson" >>example (which has never actually existed). > >agree with Jim Bell that blacknet by any stretch of the imagination >is not a "data haven". I've not yet commented on this thread! Sounds like you're confusing me with somebody else. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From jwilk at iglou.com Sun Aug 18 11:47:19 1996 From: jwilk at iglou.com (Blake Wehlage) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 02:47:19 +0800 Subject: Private Idaho Message-ID: Could anyone tell me the URL of the latest version of Private Idaho..... Thank You! ========================================== Blake Wehlage ��� R�V�L����� B�+ ��mP@� � ��� Goto: http://members.iglou.com/jwilk From bart.croughs at tip.nl Sun Aug 18 12:06:30 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:06:30 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <01BB8D2F.B10B2EA0@groningen12.pop.tip.nl> Mike McNally wrote: >Bart Croughs wrote: >> ... better arguments (after reading the books I suggested) >Like what is it with you and these books? Is "Austrian" a code word >for "Divine omniscient extraterrestrial super-being"? No, but a number of posters claimed they were Austrians, and among them was Timothy May. So if I can show that Timothy's statements contradict the economic theories he says he supports on the most fundamental level (the level of methodology), then I have a pretty solid case that he is a bit confused and that he should do his homework better before he continues arguing. Unless of course he can show the Austrians (or me) to be wrong; but he hasn't done this yet. >Through all this sophist gibberish I've completely lost track of >what exactly it is you're trying to say. I don't blame you when you get the impression that Austrian methodology, compressed in a couple of sentences, is sophist gibberish. Without the proper background knowledge, this is probably unavoidable; methodology is a rather difficult subject. But if you are really interested and want to know more about it, you now know where to look... Bart Croughs From alanh at infi.net Sun Aug 18 12:11:45 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:11:45 +0800 Subject: Possible opportunity for school recruitment In-Reply-To: <01I8EDF65HPS9JD95Q@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: I wanna go to the Internet Big Rig Tractor Pull contest! From bart.croughs at tip.nl Sun Aug 18 12:22:31 1996 From: bart.croughs at tip.nl (Bart Croughs) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:22:31 +0800 Subject: Imprisoned Capital Message-ID: <01BB8D2F.ABBEAD00@groningen12.pop.tip.nl> James A. Donald wrote: >[In response the argument that attempts to imprison capital will cause >capital flight] >At 10:50 PM 8/16/96 +-200, Bart Croughs wrote: >> This is a good point when you talk about governments that will >> prevent *all* capital from flowing out. But a government could >> prevent the outflow of capital of it's own citizens, and still >> allow capital of foreigners to leave the country. As long as >> foreign capital isn't imprisoned, foreign capital could be >> attracted. >Been tried. Does not work. >1. If foreign capital is allowed to freely enter and leave, internal >players find ways to sneak their capital out. This forces the >government to start regulating and supervising foreign businessmen >in ways that at best terrify them (such controls look very much >like creeping confiscation), and at worst cause them huge harm >with no real benefits to anyone. I think you are probably right that *in practice* it will not work when the government tries to prevent domestic capital from flowing out and at the same time will allow capital of foreigners to freely flow in and out. After all, government doesn't work. But this doesn't prove the theoretical case that an outflow of capital wouldn't hurt the standard of living of workers in a country. As long as this isn't proven, governments have an excuse to try again and impose controls on capital (and this time of course, they will do it better...) Bart Croughs From alanh at infi.net Sun Aug 18 12:22:36 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:22:36 +0800 Subject: Burden of proof In-Reply-To: <19960818074654046.AAA160@IO-ONLINE.COM> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Adamsc wrote: > On the other hand, if your employer was willing to do some sneaky ecash > stuff, then it might get interesting. Which alternate universe are you in, Chris, where employers don't want to DECLARE AND DEDUCT their salary expenses - every last penny of it? Which planet is that, where a company can afford to set up a structural cost in its operations, that its competitors don't have? > "Sorry, this is all I have left" No problem, they will get a judgement against all your future earnings. There are ways around the taxation problem, but they don't involve hiding facts from the US Govt. This is the cold, hard reality. Get used to it. From jimbell at pacifier.com Sun Aug 18 12:39:03 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:39:03 +0800 Subject: FCC_ups Message-ID: <199608181544.IAA18394@mail.pacifier.com> At 03:36 AM 8/18/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> >First flat rates would have to go out. >> >If Alice uses her phone for 5 hrs in month and pay _x_ dollars and Bob uses >> >his for 100 hrs and pays _x_ dollars, then Alice is subsidising Bob, which >> >is not really ethical. Everyone should pay for the amount of bandwith >> >one is using. >> >> I'm afraid you're promoting what I consider a rather old (and, now, odd) way >> to look at it. Unlike old mechanical telephone switches, the new hardware >> does not "wear out" and thus a person who uses it more doesn't cost the >> phoneco any more bucks. If that's the case, I don't see the logic in >> charging a person more for greater use. >> >Machinery 'wear and tear' is a small part of Infrastructure maintainance costs. There are tons of other things. Hidden costs, management, laying new pipes,etc. Well, let's consider such costs. Most of which (maintenance, management, rolling stock) are unrelated to amount of telephone usage. So there is no reason that these costs should be unequally attributed to a person who makes local calls 1 hour per day, as opposed to another who only calls 15 minutes per day, for example. As for the "laying new pipes" issue: Years ago in the the US, when inter-central-office trunk connections were all implemented using large bundles of copper pairs, it would have been _correct_ to say that higher telephone usage resulted in larger costs, since more trunk lines were necessary. Today, on the other hand, inter-office trunks (at least the new ones, and I presume that even many of the old ones have been switched over) are implemented in fiber optics. Extra capacity is either automatically available (since the capacity of a given fiber is unlikely to be fully used) or can be fairly simply added by converting old fiber from about 450 megabits per second to 2.4 gigabits, or even faster rates which have become more recently available. >But you miss my point, if a phoneco is not getting a penny for its long distanceservices (which subsidise the flat rate local calls) then the choice would >be to close down. Which would be a severe attack to the local internet usage. That's an entirely unsupported claim. Nobody claims that telephone usage (term used generically) is on the way out. "Closing down" is only going to happen if local phonecos cease to be able to provide a service that people are willing to pay for. And as for the amount of the subsidy, let's look at it. I've read around here recently that the amount of the charge is 3 cents per minute. If we assume an average LD rate of 15 cents per minute, that's 20% of the bill. If an average LD bill is $15 per month, that's only $3 per line, per month. It seems to me that those local phonecos could simply raise their local charges by this and totally compensate for the loss of that subsidy. However, an even more likely outcome is that they will make structural changes which they've been able to avoid after decades as a regulated, monopolized business: Reduce personnel levels, especially in areas other than those in which they are actually providing telephone service. Reduce salaries from "comfy" to "competitive." Before it was broken up in 1983, AT+T was a regulated monopoly and was, more or less, guaranteed a profit. Extra costs, such as higher staffing levels and higher salaries, simply increased the rates, they didn't reduce the profits. This system is still in force with the local phoneco side of the business. Anther thing which could be done, from the government's side (as part of an industry restructuring) is to allow phonecos to greatly accelerate their tax write-off of existing depreciating equipment, perhaps down to as low as 5 years or so. The theory is, these phonecos are going to start competing with companies who are only buying their equipment today, and it would be unfair to saddle the older companies with old, inefficient equipment without allowing them to completely write it off quickly. (This, of course, doesn't mean that they need to actually take it out of service...) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From joelm at eskimo.com Sun Aug 18 12:56:23 1996 From: joelm at eskimo.com (Joel McNamara) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:56:23 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <199608181609.JAA22778@mail.eskimo.com> At 04:42 AM 8/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >>CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" >>to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. Well the DOJ site still is down, but here's some details I pulled out of a USENET newsgroup this morning (hopefully L.G. Shirley won't mind the forward). All in all, it sounds like a fairly childish stunt... From: "L. G. Shirley" Newsgroups: rec.radio.scanner Subject: DOJ homepage hacked!!! Date: 17 Aug 1996 22:47:59 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 49 Message-ID: <4v5i6v$hm8 at mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> About 10PM last night I clicked on my bookmark for the Federal Gov't and then selected, by random, the Dept of Justice. http://justice2.usdoj.gov/ SURPRISE!!!!!!!!!! Someone had made a few changes, For one it is now called the Department of Injustice. You are immediately greeted by the Nazi swastika all over your screen's background. A flag w/the symbol is apparent. George Washington's picture is captioned with his words, "Move my grave to a free country! This rolling is making me an insomniac". Janet Reno's portrait has been replaced by Hitler's. And a flag now bears the Nazi symbol. She is now called Attorney General Furher. There is plenty of nudity and the many links will take you to places you may never have been before. I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto! I have no clues how it was done or when. My guess is someone changed all the links to the DOJ page to another one, the one you see when you click on the DOJ's homepage. I worked today and when I came home and tried to get back to the DOJ's page, no luck. Must be a major overload of people trying to get to the link of women clad in, well, next to nothing and tied with rope! I don't think the author will make any brownie points w/women. He hacked the homepage they have w/the DOJ on violence against women. I'm not condoning such action and violence is a very serious issue but whoever did the hack was also very serious. He changed a Clinton speech on affirmative action and insulted blacks with his choice of words. There is a lot of rambling about the internet and the Gov't taking away our rights on it. The author has a interesting slant on things. This should be enough of a warning if you're easily offended by racism, hate, foul language, porn on the net, and general crudeness. Don't go there. I would like to know just how this was done, any ideas? Is it that easy to hack someones homepage? I wonder how long it'll be before this homepage link is removed and can they find who did the evil deed? Two months on the Net and just when I think I'd seen it all, wow. From m5 at tivoli.com Sun Aug 18 12:58:48 1996 From: m5 at tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:58:48 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Return Key In-Reply-To: <01BB8D2F.B10B2EA0@groningen12.pop.tip.nl> Message-ID: <3217525C.72C@tivoli.com> Bart Croughs typed, deftly avoiding the enormous key labeled "Return": > > I don't blame you when you get the impression that Austrian > methodology, compressed in a couple of sentences, is sophist > gibberish. Seems to me that ya gotta be mighty careful when interpreting piles of egghead "gedanken" experiments. If you feel you can squeeze the contents of one more book into your head, I'd suggest one by another economist (sorta), Stuart Chase's "Tyranny of Words". ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 18 13:27:08 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:27:08 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit Message-ID: In a lawsuit files in federal court in New York City, CS First Bostom has charged an unknown party with libel, slander and violation of the Federal Telecommunications Act, as well as with impoerly obtaining confidential financial information and sending it out in e-mail messages. The lawsuit seeks damages of at least $1M against "FBCbuster" and "FBCbuster2", the aliases of an America Online AOL) subscriber or subscribers. AOL was not named as a defendant in the lawsuit, which concerns two separate e-mail messages sent to First Boston employees. The suit sais the firsy e-mail message, which was sent on March 3, included a "macabre poem" about the destruction of the firm. In a second message, sent a week later, the lswsuit states that the writer included confidential salary information about current and former officers of the firm. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From stephen at iu.net Sun Aug 18 13:27:54 1996 From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:27:54 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960818182834.00bb88ac@iu.net> Pardon me for jumping in...but a year ago I won a case in tax court brought aainst me by the IRA for not paying taxes on income earned while living overseas...apart from the verdict, the whole thing was a complete farce! My advice is to research the subject in detail before leaving the country and file IRS returns faithfully every year regardless of where you live even if you owe no tax (I owed no tax so filed no returns, penalty for not filing = % of tax owed, so no penalty for not filing, but only IF the IRS agrees you don't owe). Yes, there has been talk in the Clinton administration of dropping the overseas earning provision. You might want to email either Sen. Byron Dorgan or Sen. Kent Conrad of N.D. since both these guys were State Tax Commssioners before going to Washington and seem to be clued in on federal tax issues. The report I read in the Orlando Sentinel suggested that Clinton felt the exclusion was a money loser desined to help US corporations get employees to work overseas. However, it seems to me that it is also part of the complex web of international tax treaties designed to prevent double taxation. If you are a US citizen earning in a country that has an income tax they are likely going to expect you to pay tax, just as we tax foreign nationals living here. My impression is that many IRS staff lack in-depth knowledge of this very complex area (for example, I paid tax on my overseas income to the government of the country in which I was living when I earned it and that country has a tax treaty with the US...after about 6 very scary phone calls the agent assigned to the case agreed that I did not owe income tax...but then he tried to hit me up for thousands fo dollars in self-employed soc sec contribution -- when I told him that was also covered under a reciprocal treaty it was complete news to him...he asked me, and I wish I had taped the call, to send him the IRS document in which I had read this!) The result is often months of very stressful waiting, staring huge penalties in the face, while they learn up on the subject and say "I guess you're right, you don't owe that $60,000 in unpaid tax and penalties we asked the judge to award us." I still have a state tax lien triggered by this bogus action against me lying around on one of my credit reports. Respectfully...Stephen ps The recent US legislation denying soc sec benefits to legal aliens seems to be a breach of the referred to above. pps The relation to cypto is :-)? From stephen at iu.net Sun Aug 18 13:28:45 1996 From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:28:45 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960818182839.00bde080@iu.net> At 06:44 PM 8/17/96 -0400, you wrote: >I don't think that Schlafy is a usefull aly any more than Bob Dole >basically its just opportunist politicians latching onto the rhetoric >of debates without engaging in the argument. Dole senses that the mood >of the country is pro crypto so he supports that, he senses that it >is anti porn so he will support that. > >Basically Schlafy is playing the same game. She is saying things that >she knows will curry favour so she can get people to join her Wacko >club. > Phil I tend to agree...anyone who thinks victory for Dole/Kemp in 96 means strong free unescrowed crypto in 97 needs to read a few history books. Stephen From cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com Sun Aug 18 13:32:32 1996 From: cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com (C Matthew Curtin) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:32:32 +0800 Subject: THE POUCH Message-ID: <199608181757.NAA10242@goffette.research.megasoft.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Allow me to quote from your web page: http://www.flagler.com/security.html Quote #1: "The POUCH is a secure e-mail terminal program for IBM compatible computers. It uses a secret key phrase, advanced cryptographic techniques and several unpublished algorithms to protect data in the body of e-mail messages. The key phrase, which can be up to 48 bytes long, is easily remembered and communicated. The POUCH is highly resistant to all known forms of cryptographic attack." Quote #2: "We warrant that the product when delivered to you has no short cuts, covert channels or secret solutions of any kind. No other warranty, either expressed or implied is given." These two statements are contradictory; an unpublished algorithm is itself a secret solution, and a covert channel. Why is it that software manufacturers keep popping up and spewing nonsense? Obscurity is not security. Making the algorithm proprietary does extremely little in making it resistant to attack. All of your statements regarding the security of "The Pouch" are worthless, for you have no data with which to substantiate your claims. If it is any good, there's no way for us to know. But your marketing of the product has every indication that it's nothing more than smoke and mirrors. To coin a phrase, "pseudocrypto." Please refrain from your bogus marketing techniques. This kind of stuff, by claiming to be "real cryptography" makes real cryptographers look bad. - -- C Matthew Curtin MEGASOFT, LLC Director, Security Architecture I speak only for myself. Don't whine to anyone but me about anything I say. Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com http://research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Have you encrypted your data today? iQCVAwUBMhdZaBhyYuO2QvP9AQHaxQP+OvqYc9U/3BTPwnEhL/9ADkzL+ulhILpj 1zbyhktoCB4yMB13WQgm05DM6lolUufo63nkhsX4giMhrQ2XCBeM5/8pxJOD2ThY 3+foxma7e3tUv8r6PjNlnhn2TzVPPgbN+6NdpUCbNtOpG8GsD4EdQ35S+H0Y+aJm 75FfHfaDrNQ= =6Zxy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 18 13:32:59 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:32:59 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Simon Spero writes: > On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Mike McNally wrote: > > > > I'll trade ya my bridge for it. (It's in New York now; I'd have to > > go get it.) > > Is this bridge SNMP aware? We'll cross this bridge when we come to it. (Hey, it costs us $7 to cross the Verazano bridge, it must be good to own one.) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From stephen at iu.net Sun Aug 18 13:36:36 1996 From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 04:36:36 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960818184633.00c0c884@iu.net> At 09:03 PM 8/17/96 -0500, you wrote: >CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" >to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. > >______c_________________________________________________________________ >Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, > m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * > * three heads and eight arms. > If anyone happens to know which vulnerability(s) this hack exploited I would be most grateful if they could let me know, either on the list or privately (stephen at iu.net). I am not asking for someone to publish the attack script or specifics of what was done to get in, but I would like to know what holes were used (e.g. cgi script error). Respectfully...Stephen From snow at smoke.suba.com Sun Aug 18 14:08:00 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:08:00 +0800 Subject: Software manpower exports and the power of governments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Arun Mehta wrote: > On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > > At 13:23 16/08/96 -0700, James A. Donald wrote: > > At 06:17 PM 8/17/96 +0600, Arun Mehta wrote: > > > Look, governments in the 3rd world are often stupid and corrupt > > > -- no doubt that contributes to poverty, but that isn't the only > > > reason. I'm sure one of the reasons is cultural: > > Was the culture of the refugees who fled to Hong Kong any different > > from those who failed to escape from Communist China? > The individual can change far faster than the community, which is why > immigrants to the US, for instance, do so much better than back home. It Of course the individual immigrant doing better in America _could_ have something to do with the high degree of "class mobility" (note quotes). > has, in the case of economic matters, to do with attitudes of government, > the chambers of commerce and all the institutions that influence economic > policy -- which can take long to change. Which falls back on the community "culture" in America. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From sdudar at westeel.ca Sun Aug 18 14:10:33 1996 From: sdudar at westeel.ca (Shawn Dudar) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:10:33 +0800 Subject: Private Idaho Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960818190412.00300e94@mail.solutions.net> At 11:55 AM 8/18/96 EDT, Blake Wehlage wrote: >Could anyone tell me the URL of the latest version of Private Idaho..... > >Thank You! >========================================== > Blake Wehlage > ��� R�V�L����� B�+ ��mP@� � ��� > Goto: http://members.iglou.com/jwilk > > http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ __________________ / PGP public key |___________________________ / available on | ~ Shawn Dudar ~ |___________________ ( keyserver | |Fingerprint: / \ KeyID: 0xC0AF244D | |90 AA D0 52 D3 A6/ \__________________| |93 96 AD C2 CB ( (_____________________________|98 12 C0 FF 30 \ PGP. Use it! Protect yourself! (____________________\ For more info, point your browser to http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp/ "There are two major products to come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." -- Author Unknown -- "Practice safe eating - always use condiments." -- Author Unknown -- "In a press conference held yesterday in Seattle, WA, Bill Gates formally announced that Microsoft Corporation has declared bankruptcy..." -- Dream headline -- From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 18 14:12:17 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:12:17 +0800 Subject: BlackNet as a Distributed, Untraceable, Robust Data Haven In-Reply-To: <199608181532.IAA18019@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: jim bell writes: > At 10:40 PM 8/17/96 -0700, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > > > >>I have to speak up here and say that there is an actual working exemplar of > >>a distributed, untraceable data haven. While it lacks a robust _payment_ > >>mechanism, that is also untraceable, so does the "Visit Port Watson" > >>example (which has never actually existed). > > > >agree with Jim Bell that blacknet by any stretch of the imagination > >is not a "data haven". > > I've not yet commented on this thread! Sounds like you're confusing me with It's hard to keep track of Lance's tentacles. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From snow at smoke.suba.com Sun Aug 18 14:14:15 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:14:15 +0800 Subject: Drive the SF Central Freeway, have your license plate In-Reply-To: <9608180913.AB01288@xenon.xe.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Bob Jonkman wrote: > > >At 21:55 8/8/96, i am not a number! wrote: > > >>CBS radio news this morning: 80,000 commuters traveling the > > >>central f'way in SF will have information mailed to them > > >>regarding the quake retrofit How? Their license plates have > > >>been photographed. > > At 10:45 PM 8/8/96 -0700, Lucky wrote: > > >You *are* making this up, right? Please say you did. > to get your drivers license or car registration renewed... > Big Brother is not only watching, he's recording your location > and destination, measuring your distance travelled, and charging > you for the privilege of driving... No, you are paying to use the road. You allowed to purchase the land to build your own road, and probably could even charge to use it. Assuming of course that you could _afford_ to. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From whgiii at amaranth.com Sun Aug 18 14:26:07 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:26:07 +0800 Subject: DEADBEEF Attack?? Message-ID: <199608181930.OAA27678@mailhub.amaranth.com> Hi, I am looking for some detailed information on the "DEADBEEF" attack for key fingerprint spoofing. If anyone has any information or know where to find it please let me know. Thanks, -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- From zachb at netcom.com Sun Aug 18 14:36:55 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:36:55 +0800 Subject: MD5 completely broken! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > The following is true. There used to be company in Silicon Vallye that marketed > compression software guaranteed to reduce any file to no more than 128K, no > matter how large the input. That side worked. The decompression side didn't. > I remember reading this file somewhere...it was satirizing either Microsoft or IBM, and in a very serious manner, described a revolutionary new compression program that would reduce any file to a size of one byte. However, in order to decompress the file, a larger file containing all of the information of the original file needed to be attached to it. Fun to read... --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From perry at alpha.jpunix.com Sun Aug 18 14:41:04 1996 From: perry at alpha.jpunix.com (John Perry) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:41:04 +0800 Subject: New type-I middleman! Message-ID: <87sp9kqyq1.fsf@alpha.jpunix.com> The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted as well. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone! I just completed beta testing my Type-I (ghio-style) Middleman remailer and I'm ready for it to go online publically. Just like the Middleman type-II (mixmaster) remailer, the type-I Middleman randomly selects a remailer path to send messages based on Raph Levien's remailer list. Additionally, to foil traffic analysis, the Middleman type-I remailer also supports message reordering. This means that middleman at jpunix.com is now a fully functional type-I/type-II remailer that uses the middleman random remailer feature in additon to reordering. All of the available functionlity that you would find in either a Mixmaster remailer as well as a Cypherpunks remailer is available in the middleman at jpunix.com remailer. Below is the public PGP key for middleman at jpunix.com. - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzIXHroAAAEEAPLBq/n4a5ldzm8F51Lk63iHyOJfm+lmxW8PgjbKdAPAJBHk xUHXEeOX/gQ8RXV0W6vYwmiFcQBA7b4w3iJwptC8GN98t4o31SVHlouQozjMwaVH eu5dDUg/CJ9P2Wnwc0AtP4s9cBxQho3FK7mjeqhMXKhB2oqliX+quM/iBuHlAAUR sAGHtD5NaWRkbGVNYW4gVHlwZS1JIFJlbWFpbGVyIGF0IEpQVW5peC5Db20gPG1p ZGRsZW1hbkBqcHVuaXguY29tPrABA4kAlQMFEDIXMfh/qrjP4gbh5QEBc2kD/1hw oHPcTasnlSVzMxD68hoCI1GYNNM4JSU+rHS+3PVy++992PcyuhqdH8PhuDozeYkz C8Q5y4tmddg30ED+/W2QJwYS0iySG3yH4jrvOstws+Kn5LpD1JQJT1qGLVWHpTxG n5MZO014NGT+wVkySRCornpuaqevTum8ygp+lyPIsAHH =/xR/ - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhdusVOTpEThrthvAQErOwQAqBZo5D7RaSAiymovj7Y/FU649scaYI+v JwP9Nm1T9ZQ1rX3mscN/a37PpohKKoLHf9gYvgkJm5kPdODd9HRNoSdBcp72xrxo JDnhYdAW6iw4c6xZOde7o54maIWuITiN8X1kQcZ591Ava7DaVSdjMypm9hGzq9tx PRqQEvVDb2I= =lN7a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alano at teleport.com Sun Aug 18 14:46:42 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:46:42 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960818194231.00b28600@mail.teleport.com> At 08:46 PM 8/17/96 -0800, Adamsc wrote: >On 15 Aug 96 01:31:08 -0800, null at void.com wrote: > >>"In the 22 Jul 1996 issue of Fortune was an interesting look into the future >>of automobile electronics, "Soon Your Dashboard Will Do Everything (Except >>Steer)". " >>From the control center, they can "electronically reach into the car" to >>unlock the doors, or honk the horn and flash its lights." > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >How long do you think it would be before thieves subverted this feature? It already happens now. There is a device for determining the code sequence and frequency of electronic locks that was designed for locksmiths and repair personel. Thieves have been using it for breaking into vehicles. The scam usually happens in large mall parking lots. They just sit in their car and wait for you to open yours, watching for the lock information displayed. Once you are gone, they unlock it and swipe all of your freshly purchaced goodies. Theives have also been known to use replacement garage door openers to open up the homes of those too ignorant to change the default codes of their garage door systems. Something to be said for low tech in this case... --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From warlord at MIT.EDU Sun Aug 18 14:50:31 1996 From: warlord at MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:50:31 +0800 Subject: DEADBEEF Attack?? In-Reply-To: <199608181930.OAA27678@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: <9608181941.AA19952@pickled-herring.MIT.EDU> Hi, > I am looking for some detailed information on the "DEADBEEF" attack > for key fingerprint spoofing. > > If anyone has any information or know where to find it please let me know. I'm not sure what you mean by the DEADBEED attack on fingerprint spoofing. There is a DEADBEEF attack on keyIDs, where you can generate a key that matches the keyID, since the keyID is only the lowest bits of the key's modulus. Basically, you can choose p and q such that ((P*Q) & 0xFFFFFFFF) is the keyID you want to mimick. There have been a number of lengthy posts about it in the past. I'd suggest you look in the cypherpunks or other appropriate archive. -derek From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 18 14:54:26 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:54:26 +0800 Subject: THE POUCH In-Reply-To: <199608181757.NAA10242@goffette.research.megasoft.com> Message-ID: C Matthew Curtin writes: > and mirrors. To coin a phrase, "pseudocrypto." I love it! --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sun Aug 18 15:00:41 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:00:41 +0800 Subject: Schlafly on crypto In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960818182839.00bde080@iu.net> Message-ID: Stephen Cobb writes: > I tend to agree...anyone who thinks victory for Dole/Kemp in 96 means > strong free unescrowed crypto in 97 needs to read a few history books. Yes - their platform contained mucho guano and nothing about GAK. Still, they have no blood on their hands - yet. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From m5 at tivoli.com Sun Aug 18 15:50:17 1996 From: m5 at tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:50:17 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32178436.30E4@tivoli.com> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > In a lawsuit filed in federal court in New York City, CS First > Boston has charged an unknown party with libel ... Does this mean that *we* don't know who the party is, or that the party's identity is unknown to everybody? I'm not exactly sure how things would work if the latter. ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From ichudov at algebra.com Sun Aug 18 17:22:01 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:22:01 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960818184633.00c0c884@iu.net> Message-ID: <199608182219.RAA10538@manifold.algebra.com> Stephen Cobb wrote: > If anyone happens to know which vulnerability(s) this hack exploited I would > be most grateful if they could let me know, either on the list or privately > (stephen at iu.net). I am not asking for someone to publish the attack script > or specifics of what was done to get in, but I would like to know what holes > were used (e.g. cgi script error). The more details the better. - Igor. From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Aug 18 17:26:39 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:26:39 +0800 Subject: National Socio-Economic Security Need for Encryption Technology Message-ID: <199608182241.PAA18496@dns2.noc.best.net> At 05:59 PM 8/18/96 +-200, Bart Croughs wrote: > No, but a number of posters claimed they were Austrians, > and among them was Timothy May. So if I can show that > Timothy's statements contradict the economic theories > he says he supports on the most fundamental level > (the level of methodology), Obviously the Austrians, like anyone with half a brain, said that more capital means more wealth for everyone, and more capital relative to workers means a bigger share for the workers. It does not follow however, that the Austrians said that if the government directs the flow of other peoples capital like a farmer watering his fields, the fields so watered will benefit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From jsw at netscape.com Sun Aug 18 18:52:30 1996 From: jsw at netscape.com (Jeff Weinstein) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:52:30 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <321677C2.663B@netscape.com> Message-ID: <3217ACAE.116D@netscape.com> janke at unixg.ubc.ca wrote: > > How's that database so that people in Canada can download the > 128-bit version coming along? I believe that we have located a vendor, and are negotiating terms. I have not yet received the data. When everything is in place I will make an announcement. --Jeff -- Jeff Weinstein - Electronic Munitions Specialist Netscape Communication Corporation jsw at netscape.com - http://home.netscape.com/people/jsw Any opinions expressed above are mine. From sameer at c2.net Sun Aug 18 18:54:46 1996 From: sameer at c2.net (sameer) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:54:46 +0800 Subject: COMMUNITY CONNEXION ANNOUNCES STRONGHOLD VERSION 1.3 Message-ID: <199608182350.QAA24313@atropos.c2.org> For Immediate Release - August 19, 1996 Contact: Sameer Parekh 510-986-8770 COMMUNITY CONNEXION ANNOUNCES STRONGHOLD VERSION 1.3 Oakland, CA - Community ConneXion, Inc., the leader in uncompromising security for the Internet, today announced the version 1.3 release of Stronghold, the commercial version of Apache-SSL. Stronghold is based on the popular Apache server, the most popular webserver on the Internet, according to the Netcraft server survey at http://www.netcraft.com/survey/. Stronghold 1.3 is a significant improvement from the Stronghold 1.2 product. The latest version is based on Apache 1.1.1, which supports features such as Keep-Alive, server information modules, a proxy server, an easier to use API, more flexibility in authentication, and greater configurability. "We're happy to have a final release version of 1.3 available," said Sameer Parekh, President of Community ConneXion. "Because of our close involvement with the Apache Group, we can quickly track new Apache releases. We expect to have an Apache 1.2-based server available soon after the Apache 1.2 release." Stronghold 1.3 is the result of an extensive Internet-wide beta test, which started soon after the full release of Apache 1.1.1. Apache 1.1.1 includes features such as the status module, which gives the server administrator the ability to monitor in real time the server's activity. An information module is also available which gives administrators easy access to a list of which modules have been installed on their server, as well as their configuration directives. The latest version includes modules which support database access, including mSQL and Postgres95. Apache 1.1.1 has much more flexible configuration with regards to virtual hosts and multiple IP addresses. This feature allows such innovations as the ability within Stronghold 1.3 to serve both SSL and nonSSL documents from the same server instance. The latest version of Stronghold supports "Session ID Caching," which allows for dramatic performance improvements. Session caching allows servers to process connections much faster because the processor intensive calculations happen less often. Limited performance tests have shown speed improvements of eight hundred percent. "With Session ID Caching, the SSL protocol is not noticably slower than not using the encryption protocol. There is no excuse not to encrypt everything," said Parekh. Community ConneXion is now shipping binaries for Sparc Solaris 2.5, x86 Solaris 2.5, Sparc SunOS 4.1.3_U1, FreeBSD 2.1, BSDI 1.1, AIX 3.2.5, IRIX 5.3, HP/UX, OSF/1, Ultrix, BSDI 2.0, and Linux (ELF & a.out). More platforms will be available soon, and even more may be supported on request. Stronghold may be ordered and downloaded at http://www.us.apache-ssl.com/. Existing commercial licensees may download the latest version free of charge. Portions developed by the Apache Group, taken with permission from the Apache Server http://www.apache.org/. This product includes software developed by Ben Laurie for use in the Apache-SSL HTTP server project. This product includes software developed by Eric Young (eay at mincom.oz.au). From tcmay at got.net Sun Aug 18 19:05:20 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:05:20 +0800 Subject: Why BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven Message-ID: Jim McCoy and Larry Dettweiler have, in their own ways, raised objections to my characterization of BlackNet (and that class of mechanisms) as a distributed, untraceable, robust "data haven." Without splitting too many semantic hairs about the precise definition of "data haven," let me examine some ways in which BlackNet behaves identically to a conventional data haven. Imagine a piece of data has been outlawed in some jurisdiction. For simplicity, imagine this to be a book, a text. Let's give it a name, "The Necronomicon." This "Necronomicon" is contraband, illegal, forbidden, banned, on The Index in many countries, including the Vatican and the United States. (This is just an example. Replace "Necronomicon" with "child porn" for a more realistic, if distasteful to many, example.) The classical, Sterling-style "data haven" would have it that this piece of data, this book, is stored and is available (perhaps for a price) in a physical site. Maybe Anguilla (thought this is appearing less and less likely), maybe "The Raft," maybe an orbiting DeathStar, maybe a weather balloon drifting in the jet stream... The classical data haven is closely identified with "place." To many people, they naturally assume "data haven" = a haven for data, a "harbor" (same IE root as haven) = a physical place. But is "place" important? Consider someone in the United States who wants a copy of the Necronomicon. He can't get it locally, as it is banned. He can try dialing-in or connecting to a country where it is not banned, but this introduces risks (as with those who download child porn, arrrange to have it shipped to them, etc.). (And the physical jurisdictions which carrry the Necronomicon, or child porn, or Church of Scientology secrets, etc., will likely be under pressure to limit or deny access.) Cryptography offers another way, as it does in so many other areas. A person in the U.S. seeking the Necronomicon posts a message to BlackNet (or any similar forum, using the same methods) asking for a copy of it, or offering to pay for it. (Whether the information is free or for a fee is not central to the idea.) This request is, of course, untraceable. Anyone, anywhere in the world, with a copy of this banned material on his or her private machines may see this request and respond, either giving the material away, or negotiating a fee. (As I said before, the absence of a robust digital cash system, bidirectionally untraceable, is a known limitation of all such systems.) Thus, it is as if there is a "virtual data haven" (tm), or a "virtual library," for banned/controversial/etc. materials. Anyone may "check out" materials by submitting requests (and perhaps paying a fee). The source of the materials is, of course, unknown. The receiver of the materials if, of course, unknown. I call this at least as functional as a "physical data haven," where someone might physically travel to Anguilla, say, to buy a copy of the Necronomicon... ...and a whole lot more convenient. This is, then, my vision of a "distributed, robust, untraceable data haven." It's a data haven. And it exists, or at least there are exemplars of it. It's lacking robust digital money, to keep the transactions untraceable, but it's here. The Church of Scientology documents essentially exist at this virtual data haven site. Think about it. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From admin at anon.penet.fi Sun Aug 18 20:58:57 1996 From: admin at anon.penet.fi (admin at anon.penet.fi) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:58:57 +0800 Subject: Anonymous info Message-ID: <9608182236.AA22590@anon.penet.fi> You have requested information about your account at anon.penet.fi. Your code name is: Your real e-mail address is: Your nickname is: <> Your password is: <> Regards, admin at anon.penet.fi From carleens at net-link.net Sun Aug 18 21:02:42 1996 From: carleens at net-link.net (Andy) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:02:42 +0800 Subject: MSIE 128 bit version Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960819015832.0066eed4@serv01.net-link.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I know this topic has been covered before, but could somebody point me to MSIE's 128 bit version? Thanks. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhfJNtZDmDuLFgC9AQEdgwP+MjfLcs+KiZkMg/MIR0Hp+Gz6ksgjRSvL D2NS3k3zzPNqj316Kod0/i8p+rNoWcWJ08aQRsykni1mPSkhPSxCVgEbSRv/eb+g 3ePKekPhZEaXWQDskcQ1yw4rC7meqQqKF2R1nwrohzQvX369hGsrg1xxP0jlvBuF nrrUeP3Sg4E= =d3S9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at huge.cajones.com Sun Aug 18 21:04:32 1996 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:04:32 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <32167A0C.473C@tivoli.com> Message-ID: <199608190146.SAA19133@fat.doobie.com> > CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" > to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. Did anyone save a copy of the altered web page? I would like to see what the crackers did. Thanks. From qut at netcom.com Sun Aug 18 21:12:38 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Roger Healy OBC) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:12:38 +0800 Subject: Netscape under Linux (Vs microsoft) In-Reply-To: <32173372.25BEFC52@mnet.fr> Message-ID: <199608190219.TAA03733@netcom.netcom.com> > > > Would it be possible to both supply an Linux ELF and a.out binary ? > > > > No, we will only be supplying ELF. Since linux is not officially > > supported, we really don't have the resources to do multiple versions. > > yesterday i was in #linux on irc , and several pplreports some bugs with > netscape under linux.i got some too many times a day... Netscape crashes > when i try to load some HTML pages...i assume it shouldn't and we got > ansolutly no probs with Netscape under windows. > SO we just wondered if it's not a kind of support to micro$oft. > Maybe Linux is 'not officially supported', but have to know unix is the > most used OS, and that since Linux is free, many people use it. So when > will you accept to recognize Linux as an entire OS ?? i just reinstalled > Windows95 on a HD yesterday and it has already crached 2x. Windows is > expensive and it crashes. Why should we pay for a fucked 'OS' ? No shit. I was thrilled to watch the entire disk overwritten by unix. Everthing which came with the system was boring and useless. Gimmee BSD anyday, a socialist operating system -- Love, Qut OBC From qut at netcom.com Sun Aug 18 21:17:18 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Roger Healy OBC) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:17:18 +0800 Subject: Whereis is the shell scsh? Message-ID: <199608190221.TAA04183@netcom.netcom.com> Yes, I printed and skimmed through the Secure Shell FAQ. Is there a version for csh instead of sh? -- OBC From qut at netcom.com Sun Aug 18 21:30:51 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Roger Healy OBC) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:30:51 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <3217A9EE.3F6B@netscape.com> Message-ID: <199608190211.TAA02034@netcom.netcom.com> > > > > Jeff Weinstein (jsw at netscape.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > : The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable > > > > : strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note > > > > : that this is the released version of 3.0, so it will not expire. > > > > : You can get it from: > > > > > > > > Would it be possible to both supply an Linux ELF and a.out binary ? > > > > > > No, we will only be supplying ELF. Since linux is not officially > > > supported, we really don't have the resources to do multiple versions. > > > > ELF is cool. What about BSD? I've seen how you support BSDI so the > > binary should work with FreeBSD or NetBSD.? > > I'm not quite sure what the question is here. Your old version supported BSDI. Will the new 128bit version support BSDI in ELF or a.out? > Jeff Weinstein - Electronic Munitions Specialist > Netscape Communication Corporation > jsw at netscape.com - http://home.netscape.com/people/jsw -- Love, Qut at netcom.com From alanh at infi.net Sun Aug 18 21:49:53 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:49:53 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608190239.WAA03658@larry.infi.net> On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Faun A. Skyles wrote: > Are the typical "mom & pop" mail forwarding companies going to understand > snail-mail gateways? Some of them refuse to use a computer! Oh my God. A business that didn't computerize itself. Don't they know, that modern situational ethics require a business to place itself at the mercy of a computer, whether or not the old, manual systems were working JUST FINE. And then they have to upgrade their hardare every two years, so that they can balance their checkbook in 256 colors. And then they have to upgrade to the latest version of WordPerfect every two years, whether or not the old typewriter and manila file folders were working JUST FINE. Oh how superior we young squirts are to those antiquarians. Hey, let's sit around and make fun of them and criticize them. > For example, > many charge $2 - $3 to transcribe a telephone message for you, then they > snail mail it to your next location. Oh my God. Charging the customer for each service rendered, so that those who place demands on the time of the business - pay for it. Oh my God, someone using the Postal System, which is still head-and-shoulder above the Internet in universal accessibility on the road, entry costs and security. Hey let's sit around and criticise that. After all, we don't want to admit that not every message in the world needs to be delivered to the recipient in ten minutes or less. > It's pretty low-tech. I'd like to offer a high-tech alternative. And who's stopping you? I've got ten dollars that says that you don't have the balls/intestinal fortitude to do it, and keep it going for - oh, let's say the five years that the IRS uses to judge a business's profitability? > My grandparents are still using old forms of communications too! Well that's the final straw. What a useless and meaningless life they have. We couldn't admit or accept that they've got a completely happy life, could we. From alanh at infi.net Sun Aug 18 22:31:38 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:31:38 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960818182834.00bb88ac@iu.net> Message-ID: As I understand the proposal, the immigrant-benefits thing would be for immigrants admitted AFTER the act was, uh, enacted. So, no ex-post-facto problems. From alanh at infi.net Sun Aug 18 22:31:40 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:31:40 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: <32178436.30E4@tivoli.com> Message-ID: I suspect they are trying to get a judgement against "John Doe", in the hopes of tracking him down later. Actually, if I had a sizeable judgement against such a John Doe, I could probably find a private detective who would find the dude for a contingent fee. Wow, a whole new class of factoring (commerce definition) opens up. Get me a lawyer.... From an224850 at anon.penet.fi Sun Aug 18 22:41:06 1996 From: an224850 at anon.penet.fi (scythe) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:41:06 +0800 Subject: terrorists to hit Dem convention? Message-ID: <9608190004.AA24526@anon.penet.fi> The following is brought to you thanks, in part, to the kind assistance of CyberNews and the fine folks at Cornell University. Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 8 Num. 85 ====================================== ("Quid coniuratio est?") - ----------------------------------------------------------------- RUMOR MILL NEWS SERVICE #4 ========================== The Rumor Mill News Service is edited by "RU". The following, from what I can tell, appears to be RUMOR ONLY. What is more, I have NO IDEA who the author is; I received the following anonymously, with the promise of "more to come". + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + HIT THE ROAD JACK! ================== Clinton Told to Step Aside Before Democratic Convention ---------------------------- The President Retaliates: EXECUTIVE ORDER 13010 Creates Terrorist Gestapo ---------------------------- CHICAGO BRACING FOR TERRORISTS! ------------------------------- Police State Reactivated In Chicago Is The Nation Far Behind? ----------------------------------- Will Clinton Use EO# 13010 To Declare Martial Law? -------------------------------------------------- Later this month, the Democratic Convention returns to Chicago. When it was there in 1968, the country was ablaze in anti-Viet Nam War fever. Anti-war demonstrators all but brought the convention and Chicago to their knees. In today's world, demonstrators are labeled terrorists. Armed with today's stronger "label," the Chicago police are gearing up for a repeat performance of the Chicago 7 and "Brutalmania." Terrorists have officially replaced demonstrators, according to the terrorist bill recently passed by Congress. As an accompaniment to the terrorist bill, "Terrorist Bill" signed Presidential Executive Order 13010, the Critical Infrastructure Protection Order. This Presidential Order creates a special Task Force called the Infrastructure Protection Task Force, IPTF. The sweeping array of power and information that will be provided to the IPTF makes FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Association] look like the Mouseketeers. -+- Effective Date August 17 -+- The Presidential Order goes into effect August 17, just shortly after the Republican Convention. Speculation exists that the Terrorist Gestapo will be trotted out just in time to prevent riots and terrorism in Chicago at the Democratic Convention. As a result of the expected terrorist threat, the Chicago police superintendent has seen fit to restore all the old police powers, powers that some citizens of Chicago say bordered on a police state. -+- The Red Squad Joins The Terrorist Gestapo -+- The infamous Chicago Police intelligence unit, the Red Squad, has been reactivated and given an all-encompassing directive of keeping the city free from terrorist activity. The Red Squad bears a striking resemblance, on a local level, to the Terrorist Gestapo created by Presidential Executive Order #13010, which goes into effect on August 17. The Democratic Convention begins August 26. Thanks to the new terrorist bill and the Presidential Executive Order on protecting the critical infrastructure, the new handy-dandy terrorist label can easily fit almost anyone in any situation. Back in 1968, the police were slightly encumbered by the Constitution and "probable cause." Under today's terrorist bill, which was passed in the nick of time to ensure terrorist cooperation at the convention, the Chicago police no longer have to be hamstrung by the "outdated," "antiquated" Constitution. "The IPTF's function is to identify and coordinate existing expertise, inside and outside of the Federal Government." In Chicago, the "existing expertise" is the Red Squad. Under Executive Order 13010 the IPTF, otherwise known as the Terrorist Gestapo, is ordered to "provide, or facilitate and coordinate the provision of, expert guidance to critical infrastructures *to* *detect*, *prevent*, *halt*, *or* *confine* *an* *attack*..." Chicago is getting ready to declare martial law to protect the President and other members of the Democratic party while they are at the convention. They will coordinate all activities with the Terrorist Gestapo. The IPTF has been given the go-ahead to detect, prevent, halt or confine an attack. All executive departments and agencies have been ordered to cooperate with the IPTF and provide requested assistance. Furthermore, all executive departments and agencies have been ordered to share information when "requested" by IPTF. In other words, the Terrorist Gestapo has been given an all-encompassing power by Executive Order 13010. Anyone or any agency or department that refuses a "request" made by the IPTF can be labeled a traitor or a terrorist and prosecuted accordingly. This Terrorist Gestapo force will parlay its power into a national police force. The tap dance they plan on doing in Chicago with the old Chicago Red Squad will be a trial run to see how much they can get away with in order to call up the next round of Presidential Executive Orders and Directives. -+- Even the Sewer Covers Are Welded Shut -+- To prevent terrorist moles from infiltrating any part of the convention, the police have even welded shut all the storm sewers around the United Center in Chicago, the forum for the Democratic Convention. -+- Step Down or Step Aside -+- Does all the rapid activity in the Office of Presidential Executive Orders have anything to do with the secret White House meeting which took place Saturday, August 3, 1996? The meeting took place barely a day and a half after President Clinton raged at a Rose Garden news conference. He had been asked if he had gone back on his word to pay the legal bills for fired and then prosecuted White House Travel Office employee, Billy Dale. He bristled in anger and rage and began berating the CBS correspondent who asked the question. As his temper and voice rose, Chief of Staff Leon Panetta was seen frantically waving to press aides to end the news conference. As the President's staff tried to herd him back into the safety of the Oval Office, the President was heard screaming at the media. Could the reason for this uncharacteristic outburst of temper and rage have been that the President knew that 10 of the top leaders of the Democratic party were planning on ordering him to step down or step aside, and do it two days before the Democratic Convention begins in Chicago? RMNews sources from the Chicago and Washington stations have reported that the secret meeting was chaired by former DNC Chairman and Ambassador to Russia, Robert Strauss. Mr. Strauss, who vehemently denies being at the meeting, is considered the ranking elder statesman of the Democratic party. Strauss and his gang of 10 high-ranking Democratic leaders allegedly told Clinton that the gathering storm of indictments and revelations against Hillary would destroy the Democratic Party. The President was shown a photograph of the upcoming federal criminal indictment which accuses her of perjury and obstruction of justice. The President shouted in rage that they were all "traitors." Knowing that Executive Order 13010 had just created the Terrorist Gestapo, the President's angry use of the word traitor carried sinister and potentially deadly overtones to the 10 brave men who are risking their careers and lives to save the Democratic Party. Countering Clinton's raging outburst with one of his own, Ambassador Strauss reportedly smashed an ashtray on a desk near the President and shouted, "You use cocaine and liquor. You are unfit to deal with worldwide emergencies." The President screamed back at Strauss with a string of obscenities and curses. Strauss fired back that the President is acting deranged and as such could be removed by the 25th Amendment to the Constitution. Strauss allegedly ordered the President to resign his office or to declare before the Democratic Convention that he does not wish to be nominated for a second term. The President has never officially declared that he is a candidate for the Presidency. Of course, since, as already noted, Strauss denies having been present in person at the August 3rd meeting, he presumably would also deny having smashed down an ashtray, having engaged in a shouting match with President Clinton, etc. Prior to the secret meeting, the "Gang of 10," with the aid of others, have secretly arranged for damaging stories on the president and his wife to leak out. One story was already leaked by the Director of Central Intelligence, John Deutch. The CIA Director ordered the Inspector General to investigate claims that U.S. Intelligence Agencies were involved in illegal arms shipments and drug smuggling at an isolated airstrip in Mena, Arkansas during the years that Bill Clinton was Governor. Susan Schmidt of the Washington Post broke the story on August 7, four days after the secret White House ultimatum. [CN: Late breaking: Deutch now says he wants to resign as DCIA and return to the Pentagon. Did trying to lift the lid on Mena expose him to too much hostility within CIA? Or perhaps, as suggested by Linda Thompson, it is "cross pollination" between CIA and the military.] Clinton later sent word to the Gang of 10 that he did not accede to their demands. He was then told that a floor fight would take place at the Democratic Convention by prominent delegates. These delegates would charge him and the first lady with participating in a string of crimes and accuse them of damaging or destroying the Democratic Party. -+- The Secret Trials Begin -+- With the all-encompassing powers given to the Terrorist Gestapo by Presidential Order 13010, "Terrorist Bill" has the power to "confine an attack." The attack upon the Office of the President is coming from loyal Democrats. Using the power of the Executive Order that he just signed, the President now has the power to label any loyal Democrat a traitor and a terrorist and "confine" him in order to "halt" his upcoming activities against the President. The words within the quotation marks are the exact words taken from Executive Order 13010. RMNews has reported that Chicago is run by the Rothschild family. In that issue, Bill Clinton's illegitimate Rockefeller roots were detailed. The deadly feud between the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds was also described. Bill Clinton, the politician, was created by his maternal grandfather, Winthrop Rockefeller, a former governor of Arkansas. He was promoted and supported by the Rockefellers. But even the Rockefellers have seen the writing on the wall. Bill Clinton is a disaster for America. Four more years of Clinton and his wife could destroy the Rockefeller base in America. It could bring down the illegal Federal Reserve, abolish the IRS and create full-scale warfare in the streets of America. While limited riots and wars are always good for business, the type of war that a continued Clinton presidency could bring will totally devastate and destroy the Rockefeller family, as well as all other wealthy Americans. In other words, America would be leveled and possibly conquered by an outside power. If this outside power is backed by the blood enemy of the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, there is little doubt that any of the vast Rockefeller fortune would be spared. More than likely it would all be nationalized for the benefit of the state. Sensing the danger to themselves by their illegitimate creation, the Rockefellers have seen fit to demand that Bill Clinton remove himself from the office. If he chooses to fight them, he will have the support of their enemies, the Rothschilds. Could that be the real reason that the Democratic convention is being held in Chicago this year? Is the Chicago Red Squad owned outright by the Rothschilds? Will the Gang of 10 find themselves "confined," i.e., detained for questioning for the duration of the Democratic Convention? RMNews Agency. Serving Liberty and Freedom Worldwide. + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + For reprints of other RMNews editions, send a self-addressed, stamped envelope with 3 or more FRN's (Federal Reserve notes) to cover the cost of copying to: RMNews Agency PO Box 1784 Aptos, CA 95001-1784 Books and Tapes list also available. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of Conspiracy Nation, nor of its Editor in Chief. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation." - ----------------------------------------------------------------- If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail address, send a message in the form "subscribe cn-l My Name" to listproc at cornell.edu (Note: that is "CN-L" *not* "CN-1") - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For information on how to receive the improved Conspiracy Nation Newsletter, send an e-mail message to bigred at shout.net - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Want to know more about Whitewater, Oklahoma City bombing, etc? (1) telnet prairienet.org (2) logon as "visitor" (3) go citcom - ----------------------------------------------------------------- See also: http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html - ----------------------------------------------------------------- See also: ftp.shout.net pub/users/bigred - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt. Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9 - -> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo at alterzone.com - -> Posted by: Brian Redman --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi From alanh at infi.net Sun Aug 18 23:03:06 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:03:06 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608190352.XAA07594@larry.infi.net> On Aug 18, 96 11:12:16 am, Joel M Snyder, Now Overwhelmed Again wrote: > Back to the original topic: email-to-snail-mail. That's not hard, > technologically. The problem as I see it is billing. If I were to offer > such a service, I'd want to keep my cost to the consumer low, on the order > of $0.75 to $1.00 per message, with marginal charges for additional pages. > I might possibly barely be able to find some slave labor to make a profit > at doing it, IF I HAD THE VOLUME (which I probably wouldn't), but the > overhead of setting up a billing arrangement with every TDH who wants to do > it would eat the profits up instantly. > > It's difficult to conceive of a setup which a technomad would use in > sufficient volumes to be cost-effective. How about the sender provides a Digicash e-cash payment for the appropriate amount with each message, kind of like a electronic postage stamp? A script on the receiving side could automatically check the payment amount, bouncing the message back to sender with an "insufficient payment" message if necessary. Or you could use a web page to submit messages and payments. Either way no one needs to worry about billing, account tracking, etc. Payment/billing is taken care of immediately. Of course, there is some overhead with the fees on e-cash, but it probably would be more cost effective than other methods. P.S. I have an alpha version of a program which may be of interest to technomads: it automatically executes scripts received by email from a remote machine and then mails back the results. The scripts (shell scripts, perl scripts, or whatever) are encrypted and signed with PGP before being sent to provide security and prevent unauthorized users from executing scripts on your machine. The program runs on unix systems, and submissions can be from anything that runs PGP and is able to send email. See: http://www.bmen.tulane.edu/~carpente/emscrypt/emscrypt.html for more info. --Matt -- mcarpent at mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu PGP mail preferred, finger for public key. From rich at c2.org Sun Aug 18 23:28:51 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:28:51 +0800 Subject: Why BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- True, for controversial political and artistic materials whose authors/distributors have an interest in disseminating. However, with neither a government to enforce contracts nor an identifiable location/identity that can be used for the private enforcement of, ahem, contracts, the barrier to entry for anonymous markets in real commercial products seems rather high. How are buyers and sellers to trust each other? How do you build reputation capital from zero? Once you have reputation, transaction costs should be pretty low, but building it? If what you're selling is a physical product, you're ultimately going to have a location. If what you're selling is information, how do you demonstrate the worth and trustworthiness of your data without distributing it? And once you have distributed it, what's to stop a "counterfeiter" from redistributing it, stealing your profits before you have had a chance to establish your reputation capital as the preferred source? I don't see anonymous digital cash as the tightest bottleneck. Distributed trust in an anonymous marketplace seems more difficult. - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMhftl5NcNyVVy0jxAQFJNQH/XaNdrku42unvP56Dku+QhPwWged5Qbdw 9wLcrwuSbBLeJg0lgsjN33oXMTTQUWV7JtY8hEhh0zS7WuWcEi5S8A== =oiuA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From attila at primenet.com Sun Aug 18 23:28:55 1996 From: attila at primenet.com (attila) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:28:55 +0800 Subject: CypherPunk Insolence Message-ID: <199608190425.WAA20936@InfoWest.COM> #include #include void insolence() { Discus unrelated central "Bellism" of your own (); if ( gun_control_issue ) respond to every message with the observation genetically superior tomatoes seem to play an important role (); else change_subject_again(); process_threatening_messages(); while (1) { if ( PerryGram ) break; else { respond_to_all(); argue_with_TCMay(); continue; } } } -- Now, with a black jack mule you wish to harness, you walk up, look him in the eye, and hit him with a 2X4 over the left eye. If he blinks, hit him over the right eye! He'll cooperate --so will politicians. From unicorn at schloss.li Sun Aug 18 23:30:47 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:30:47 +0800 Subject: "Utilization Review" Message-ID: I listened with horror this evening to a radio program which discussed the state of medical record privacy today. In one segment a doctor (psychologist) described an experience she had after a session which was covered by the patient's insurance plan. The doctor in question received a phone message with a 1-800 number and the request to return the call. On returning it she was connected with a very polite representative of the insurance company (who apparently had some experience in mental health, but not a M.D.) who proceeded to ask the most sensitive questions about the patient's session in order to conduct a "utilization review to determine medical necessity." Most alarmingly, the representative could be heard typing on a computer during the entire review. The program went on to indicate that among the provisions in the most recent health insurance reform bill there was a provision for information sharing among insurance companies to facilitate the transfer of insurance policies when the insured switches jobs. Among the more alarming suggestions in the legislation is the use of a "unique medical identifier." Many of you will see this coming. One of the currently proposed "identifiers" is the Social Security Number. Members of the list might also wish to consider that companies which self insure their employees for health benefits are entitled to all their medical records directly. The prospect of cradle to grave medical files as an everyday reality in the United States is but around the corner. In my view it is time for the foundation of an offshore insurance company which recognizes the basic tenant that client medical records are the property of the client, used in a license capacity at the pleasure of the insured, and not an entitlement to which the company is automatically privy. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From tcmay at got.net Sun Aug 18 23:52:38 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:52:38 +0800 Subject: Why BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven Message-ID: At 4:29 AM 8/19/96, Rich Graves wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >True, for controversial political and artistic materials whose >authors/distributors have an interest in disseminating. And artistic, political, cultural, etc. materials are of course one of the main markets, as the large number of bookstores shows. (And the success of "Primary Colors," by "Anonymous," shows that one need not the True Name of an author, obvious to all persons on this list.) >However, with neither a government to enforce contracts nor an identifiable >location/identity that can be used for the private enforcement of, ahem, >contracts, the barrier to entry for anonymous markets in real commercial >products seems rather high. How are buyers and sellers to trust each other? >How do you build reputation capital from zero? Once you have reputation, >transaction costs should be pretty low, but building it? Yes, a topic we've discussed many times over the years. I don't have the time to compose a new essay on this, so I'll refer folks to either the archives or my Cyphernomicon FAQ, which discusses reputations, third party escrow services, etc. (Imagine an equally anonymous "Ace Escrow Service," which holds the cash until a product is transferred. Essentially, this is what a _store_ does. For example, a Barnes and Noble or a Home Depot chooses which products to stock based on their own evaluations, tests, and reputation assessments...and they make good on defective products, etc. This lessens the risks to the consumer that he will be screwed by a vendor he has little recourse against. "Middlemen.") >If what you're selling is a physical product, you're ultimately going to >have a location. If what you're selling is information, how do you >demonstrate the worth and trustworthiness of your data without distributing >it? And once you have distributed it, what's to stop a "counterfeiter" from >redistributing it, stealing your profits before you have had a chance to >establish your reputation capital as the preferred source? Sure, these are all issues. (As the Assyrian merchant said in 1300 B.C. "This idea of a "store" you have...I can think of many problems. How will they all be solved?") >I don't see anonymous digital cash as the tightest bottleneck. Distributed >trust in an anonymous marketplace seems more difficult. I disagree, but this was obvious from the focus of my post. I believe we see "distributed trust" (though this is not the choice of words I would use) all around us. Too many issues to debate here. My point was that the BlackNet approach *is* like a physical data haven, except with some advantages. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From cjs at netcom.com Mon Aug 19 00:01:16 1996 From: cjs at netcom.com (cjs) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:01:16 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <199608190146.SAA19133@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: <199608190501.WAA01334@netcom20.netcom.com> > > CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" > > to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. > > Did anyone save a copy of the altered web page? I would like to see > what the crackers did. http://www.otol.fi/~jukkao/usdoj/ I think that a lot of what the freedom hacker was trying to say got lost due to some of the pictures he included. His alterations to the battered women's page are not going to win him any points with me or anyone else. Nor is his "Kill the Nigs" version of clinton's speach. Neither is particularly humerous or has anything to do with our diminishing rights. In fact, the whole thing is more likely to backfire then it is to do any good. So Mr. Freedom Hacker, wherever you are out there, if you ever get a chance to do it again, here is a little advice to you. 1) pick a single point or common theme. 2) do not alienate 60% of your audience in the process 3) try to be more professional and 4) let whoever did the caption for george washington write the rest of it. Christopher From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 00:09:25 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:09:25 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit Message-ID: At 3:29 AM 8/19/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >I suspect they are trying to get a judgement against "John Doe", in the >hopes of tracking him down later. > >Actually, if I had a sizeable judgement against such a John Doe, I could >probably find a private detective who would find the dude for a >contingent fee. Wow, a whole new class of factoring (commerce definition) >opens up. Get me a lawyer.... Lawyers out there can and should correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe either the criminal or civil justice system has the concept of a "John Doe" trial! The ability to have the advice of an attorney, to confront one's accusers, cross-examine witnesses, and mount a defense, and all that constitutional stuff. Rather hard to do if the trial is in the past tense. Can you cite an example of such a "John Doe" trial in the U.S.? (There may be trials "in absentia," more so in other countries than in the U.S., but not when no persons have been identified at all!) --Tim May, who hopes he is never identified as the "John Doe" indicted, tried, convicted, and sentenced in 1979 in Washington County, Oregon, for the crime of unlawful foddering in a public place. Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From Adamsc at io-online.com Mon Aug 19 00:16:45 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:16:45 +0800 Subject: Orbiting Datahavens Message-ID: <19960819050233078.AAA175@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:06:47 -0700 (PDT), Brian Lane wrote: >> I'm not sure who would launch it - a Japanese launcher? (ESA is >> strapped for cash, which was one reason for the phenomenaly stupid move of >> putting space probes onto the maiden flight of the Ariane 5.) > > We'd want someone more reliable than ESA! I doubt that we could afford >to have a backup satellite in case of a disaster. Once the Delta Clipper >is functional the payload costs to orbit is supposed to drop tremendously. Or, who knows. NASA could finally wake up, really that the shuttle sucks as a cargo hauler, start using something like the Phoenix (They stonewalled it - would have made them look bad) to build orbital industry and then setup giant solar-powered launch lasers and have surface to orbit at pennies per pound. Oh well... Who'd have thought we'd go to the moon and stop. | Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp | Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 00:50:31 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:50:31 +0800 Subject: "Utilization Review" Message-ID: At 4:22 AM 8/19/96, Black Unicorn wrote: >I listened with horror this evening to a radio program which >discussed the state of medical record privacy today. > >In one segment a doctor (psychologist) described an experience >she had after a session which was covered by the patient's >insurance plan. A friend of mine is a psychotherapist very concerned with such issues. There are many pressures on him to reveal information about patients, most of which are "unsurprising" in a world of what can only be called "socialized medicine." (I say "socialized" in that very few persons pay cash or their own money for medical care, psychiatric treatment, sports injury therapy, etc. Most are paying only a per-visit deductible, if even that, and the rest of the charges are picked up by their employers, their insurance plans through employers, the various social welfare institutions, etc.) Insurance companies want proof that the treatments are needed, or are working, and cannot merely take the word of a shrink, for example, that his services are needed. (I can think of some solutions, such as "second opinions" and "independent review panels," but, I can tell you, such things are not common with psychotherapy regimens.) >The doctor in question received a phone message with a 1-800 .... >about the patient's session in order to conduct a "utilization >review to determine medical necessity." Most alarmingly, the >representative could be heard typing on a computer during the >entire review. Let's hope the resulting entries did not show up on a Web page! (This has actually happened, accidentally. Only discovered when the search spiders found the data and others then found the records.) >The program went on to indicate that among the provisions in the >most recent health insurance reform bill there was a provision >for information sharing among insurance companies to facilitate >the transfer of insurance policies when the insured switches >jobs. Among the more alarming suggestions in the legislation is >the use of a "unique medical identifier." Many of you will see >this coming. One of the currently proposed "identifiers" is the >Social Security Number. First, Clinton's dormant Health Plan (her husband is not pushing it) would've _required_ such cross-linking of records. My friend the psychotherapist is a liberal, but was aghast at this and lobbied with his fellow mental health care professionals against this. He also got PGP as a result of this scare. Second, the "Social Security Number" worry is misplaced. They _already_ have enough identifiers to cross-link records til the cows come home. Thinking one is safe if the SSN is not used is "ostrich security." The real issue is having confidential medical or psychiatric or legal records out of the containment of a trusted holder. >Members of the list might also wish to consider that companies >which self insure their employees for health benefits are >entitled to all their medical records directly. Indeed, when I was at Intel an engineer was outraged almost to the point of quitting and filing a lawsuit when he learned that his "Human Relations" bimbo in a cubicle down the hall had the details of his vasectomy. I'm sure by now the news of his vasectomy is a hundred different file system in a dozen different institutions. An Alta Vista search should turn it up. --Tim May ObCrypto Relevance: One of the ways safes (the steel kind, not the alternative to vasectomies kind) got stronger was not through imploring and lecturing, as we in the crypto community do, but through _insurance_. Why? A way to discount future costs/risks to the present. A merchant who has never been robbed probably doesn't think about the security of his safe. But his insurer does. And he says to the merchant: "The charge is $2000 a year if you continue with your current safe, and $1000 a year if you get a Mosler Titan-2 safe. Your call." The same motivation is, I think, what will eventually get security and crypto more widely used. A hospital sued for multiple millions because its records got intercepted and placed on the Web will have its insurance company rethinking policies and rates, and setting procedures for protection of information. This will drive security in a way that lectures, rules, and even scare stories will not. Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From winsock at c2.org Mon Aug 19 02:04:10 1996 From: winsock at c2.org (WinSock Remailer) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:04:10 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608190658.XAA16050@infinity.c2.org> DISCORDIAN SOCIETY SUPER SECRET CRYPTOGRAPHIC CYPHER CODE Of possible interest to all Discordians, this information is herewith release from the vaults of A.I.S.B., under the auspices of Episkopos Dr. Mordecai Malignatius, KNS. SAMPLE MESSAGE: ("HAIL ERIS") CONVERSATION: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 STEP 1. Write out the message (HAIL ERIS) and put all the vowels at the end (HLRSAIEI) STEP 2. Reverse order (IEIASRLH) STEP 3. Convert to numbers (9-5-9-1-19-18-12-8) STEP 4. Put into numerical order (1-5-8-9-9-12-18-19) STEP 5. Convert back to letters (AEHIILRS) This cryptographic cypher code is GUARANTEED TO BE 100% UNBREAKABLE. From mccoy at communities.com Mon Aug 19 02:36:38 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:36:38 +0800 Subject: Why BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven Message-ID: Tim May writes: > Without splitting too many semantic hairs about the precise definition of > "data haven," let me examine some ways in which BlackNet behaves > identically to a conventional data haven. I would be willing to concede the point if you would take a few seconds to examine the issue of complete lack of persistence in BlackNet. Your descriptions of BlackNet as a data haven seem to be completely based upon the presumption that an anonymous contact service and contract exchange is the functional equivalent to a data haven. Here are a few reasons why I would disagree: As a publisher of "naughty bits" I do not have the ability to just toss data up and assume that it will be there when someone wants it. I am forced to continuously monitor the appropriate newsgroups to find messages from people asking me to post the blueprints to the orbital mind control lasers or kiddie porn. I cannot put my data onto "the Net" with an expectation that any arbitrary user will be able to get the bits one month later. To maintain persistence I need to constantly repost my data, making it easier for authorities to trace me through simple taffic analysis if nothing else. > The classical data haven is closely identified with "place." To many > people, they naturally assume "data haven" = a haven for data, a "harbor" > (same IE root as haven) = a physical place. > > But is "place" important? No one has really claimed place is important, in fact the ideal data haven has no physical existence whatsoever. This is a given. As a practical matter it is a lot easier if you start off in a "place" because there are fewer complications but this has never been a necessity. > A person in the U.S. seeking the Necronomicon posts a message to BlackNet > (or any similar forum, using the same methods) asking for a copy of it, or > offering to pay for it. (Whether the information is free or for a fee is > not central to the idea.) This request is, of course, untraceable. > > Anyone, anywhere in the world, with a copy of this banned material on his > or her private machines may see this request and respond, either giving the > material away, or negotiating a fee. (As I said before, the absence of a > robust digital cash system, bidirectionally untraceable, is a known > limitation of all such systems.) Now you reveal the objection I had to BlackNet being a data haven. What if only one person has a copy of this banned material? It may not be in this publishers interest to have the data available to anyone for posting in response to the query ("Information does not want to be free, it wants to be expensive and liberated...") and some data is not widespread enough or of interest to enough people to assume that multiple copies exist to those who read BlackNet postings. Therefore the only way for a publisher to maintain availability of their data is to constantly monitor the appropriate newsgroups and republish for each request, persistence is maintained only through eternal vigilence (much like liberty, only requiring a lot more effort :) > It's a data haven. No, it is an anonymous contact service. To claim this is a data haven is like claiming that the classified ads in a newspaper are the equivalent to a mall; you could probably find the same goods if you looked long enough, but there is a reason that manufacturers sell goods through stores rather than just posting classified ads across the country. When one does not have the time to check the classified ads, wants to goods from a reputable source, and wants the goods in a timely fashion they will go to a shopping center. jim From mikev at is.co.za Mon Aug 19 03:06:23 1996 From: mikev at is.co.za (Mike van der Merwe) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:06:23 +0800 Subject: THE POUCH In-Reply-To: <199608181757.NAA10242@goffette.research.megasoft.com> Message-ID: Hi >> "The POUCH is a secure e-mail terminal program for IBM compatible >> computers. It uses a secret key phrase, advanced cryptographic >> techniques and several UNPUBLISHED ALGORITHMS to protect data in the >> body of e-mail messages. The key phrase, which can be up to 48 bytes >> long, is easily remembered and communicated. The POUCH is highly >> resistant to all known forms of cryptographic attack." [emphasis mine] The INSTANT one see's the words "unpublished algorithms" appear in the context of cryptography one knows that snake oil is being purveyed. Resistant to all known forms of cryptographic attack?? Words fail me. > Making the algorithm proprietary > does extremely little in making it resistant to attack. All of your > statements regarding the security of "The Pouch" are worthless, for > you have no data with which to substantiate your claims. Absolutely. > If it is any good, there's no way for us to know. But your marketing > of the product has every indication that it's nothing more than smoke > and mirrors. To coin a phrase, "pseudocrypto." > Please refrain from your bogus marketing techniques. This kind of > stuff, by claiming to be "real cryptography" makes real cryptographers > look bad. Quite right. I'm not a "real cryptographer" myself, however I do feel that many people on this list subscribe to a similar set of values and are equally angered by people who sell snake oil to unsuspecting people. Later Mike From vipul at pobox.com Mon Aug 19 03:43:26 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:43:26 +0800 Subject: Billy boy's satellites [Was - Floating DataHaven] In-Reply-To: <321446BF.20431CA7@systemics.com> Message-ID: <199608190016.AAA00419@fountainhead.net> > > Vincent Cate wrote: > > > You can get Internet via radio links for reasonable prices. And via > > satellite for almost affordable prices. When Bill Gates 900 satellites > > get up there it should be very affordable. > > ... if a tad unrealiable? > > The thought of 900 satelites in low orbit, all running NT, makes me > shudder. Brings a new meaning to the expression "OS crash". > > What are cypherpunks thoughts on this? Who really believes it'll work? > > Doesn't the low orbit part mean that the satellites will have a low life > expectancy, meaning a new launch every couple of days? (where's Gerald > Bull when you need him - oh yes, now I remember ...) The Iridium Project was pretty neat in this respect. I don't know what is happenning with it as of now. It had some 230+ satellites, and some smart routing techniques, if a satellite goes down. Vipul vipul at pobox.com From 73064.1247 at compuserve.com Mon Aug 19 03:43:35 1996 From: 73064.1247 at compuserve.com (Theodor Schlickmann) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:43:35 +0800 Subject: ETS Call Message-ID: <960819081531_73064.1247_DHS31-2@CompuServe.COM> The European Commission DGXIII/7 Security of Telecommunications and Information Systems has anounced an open call for tenders in the Official Journal as part of our preparatory work for ETS (the Europe-wide network of Trusted Third Party Services). The work proposed tackles the area of ETS infrastructure specification, design and implementation in the form of field trials or "pilots" as well as performing studies on communication and legal aspects. >From the above data, further details of the Call can be found on our Web site: http://www.cordis.lu/infosec/ For those who are unable to access the Web site, please send an e-mail request to Fiona Allan at the following address: fiona.allan at bxl.dg13.cec.be The identical information will then be mailed to you using the normal postal services. After reading the documentation, please direct any queries that you may have to Theodor Schlickmann at the following address: 73064.1247 at compuserve.com Kind regards Theodor W. Schlickmann From couto at oim.uem.mz Mon Aug 19 04:06:18 1996 From: couto at oim.uem.mz (couto at oim.uem.mz) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:06:18 +0800 Subject: Unix passwd-cracker online? Message-ID: <322337ec.oim@oim.uem.mz> Hi Arnauld! Where can I get this file??? Is there a new version of Cracker Jack than 1.4? There is a whay of puting Cracker Jack to manage passwords bigger than 8 characters? Thanx in advance, cRaZy bYtE couto at oim.uem.mz On 17 Aug 96 at 22:53, Arnauld Dravet wrote: > Date sent: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 22:53:51 -0500 > From: Arnauld Dravet > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Unix passwd-cracker online? > there's a new cracker under dos called John the Cracker, and coded by > UCF96. It's optimized for Pentiumsand is better than cracker jack on a > lot of points : can work with or without wordlists, and u can modify all > what u want....approx 30% faster than cracker jack on a pentium (i run > it at usually 4000 cps on a P90/32Mb ram and a 25Mb wordlist (yeah it's > big)) > > scraver at mnet.fr > From mikev at is.co.za Mon Aug 19 04:47:53 1996 From: mikev at is.co.za (Mike van der Merwe) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:47:53 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199608190658.XAA16050@infinity.c2.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, WinSock Remailer wrote: > > DISCORDIAN SOCIETY SUPER SECRET CRYPTOGRAPHIC CYPHER CODE > > Of possible interest to all Discordians, this information is herewith > release > from the vaults of A.I.S.B., under the auspices of Episkopos Dr. Mordecai > Malignatius, KNS. > > SAMPLE MESSAGE: ("HAIL ERIS") > > CONVERSATION: > A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 > > STEP 1. Write out the message (HAIL ERIS) and put all the vowels at the end > (HLRSAIEI) > STEP 2. Reverse order (IEIASRLH) > STEP 3. Convert to numbers (9-5-9-1-19-18-12-8) > STEP 4. Put into numerical order (1-5-8-9-9-12-18-19) > STEP 5. Convert back to letters (AEHIILRS) > > This cryptographic cypher code is GUARANTEED TO BE 100% UNBREAKABLE. > > You have GOT to be joking. This isn't happening... I can't believe I just read this. I am at a complete loss for words... Mike ___________________ "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) From Adamsc at io-online.com Mon Aug 19 04:49:02 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:49:02 +0800 Subject: (null) Message-ID: <19960819091932218.AAA178@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:03:32 +0200 (MET DST), Anonymous wrote: >>There are many computer companies that are full of Bozos, >>Microsoft isn't one of them. Most of the people griping about >>Microsoft can't code any better. >Gee Phill, as I'm preparing to leave MS after 6 years, I have to >disagree with you. Mediocrity and bureaucracy have eatten away >at a lot of the core of the company. It is entirely marketing driven >now, and the coders have definitely gone down hill since I first >started in Apps. The "bozo" factor has steadily increased. Only >those new hires without a sense of history think it's a real cool >place to work. And, a few egocentric folks totally tripped on >power and greed. (Apologies to any MSofties on the list I don't >know personally.) That would match my general impression of the way things have gone. Originally Microsoft was a small company that *had* to write good code (anyone remember DR DOS?) to survive. At the time, they had to do tons of work producing usable products out of IBM's code. (Apparently due to optimization, at one point MS was writing a negative total codelines for OS/2 1.x) Now, IBM is writing good code (Warp/Merlin/etc) and making usable products out of MS blunders (Win-OS/2. It may crash (not quite as much as the real Windows - separate sessions) but it doesn't bring down the whole house... >Talk to HR about the turnover of people with 5.5 to 8 years >under their belts who are bailing with their stock options because >it ain't a fun place to work anymore. Testers, developers, UE, >you name it. > >I can gripe because I was there. I never seem to recall seeing >your name on any internal e-mail. > >Oh yeah, this is coming through a remailer, because I'm reading >the list at work. And I doubt BillG would appreciate my opinions >being sent out over MS resources. | Chris Adams - Webpages for sale! Se habla JavaScript! | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp | Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" From rp at rpini.com Mon Aug 19 05:51:50 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:51:50 +0800 Subject: Unbreakable Hoax Message-ID: <9608190958.AA24335@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 19 11:55:19 1996 > > DISCORDIAN SOCIETY SUPER SECRET CRYPTOGRAPHIC CYPHER CODE > > Of possible interest to all Discordians, this information is herewith > release > from the vaults of A.I.S.B., under the auspices of Episkopos Dr. > Mordecai > Malignatius, KNS. > > SAMPLE MESSAGE: ("HAIL ERIS") > > CONVERSATION: > A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 > > STEP 1. Write out the message (HAIL ERIS) and put all the vowels at the > end > (HLRSAIEI) > STEP 2. Reverse order (IEIASRLH) > STEP 3. Convert to numbers (9-5-9-1-19-18-12-8) > STEP 4. Put into numerical order (1-5-8-9-9-12-18-19) > STEP 5. Convert back to letters (AEHIILRS) > > This cryptographic cypher code is GUARANTEED TO BE 100% UNBREAKABLE. I found an optimisation to reduce computation time: Replace steps 1 to 5 by the following step a: STEP a. Sort the string according to the alphabet. The properties of the algorithm are still the same, it's unbreakable (unfortunately also by the originator, but that's a petty detail). ;-) - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMhg6ChFhy5sz+bTpAQHlZggAwr3W4+XGpF+yqd2D/8YFbBK4v+ddjlSB Wgjd7xU4N+KB0bRcNLMZzdiHVyeLMoi6TMmxTNarhAzqTmn5dEjhwysSkWxWsKUo cK7T3pXO5A33r+Htv6L6W1mTlFhIW6neFM45P4NQgYdYwhPJAP8B+xMy0z0OIcoM BHwvmaDZFJVY6ps/T23gClzKDWQI8XDFbGyL8iNNefRXKWnwLS3YZgRXGKJD9BrX R/LtW1KzKJk63tPFWngehXItQc2WeuCdR/BhO9hCVN66j4B7t40d9e4mxCkr2f/Z kqhaI9Cl81BA/Xj508sLADgq3NGa6ps7dIFg6Js+UD7K9NIuAfg/jg== =qkkB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From declan at eff.org Mon Aug 19 07:51:33 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:51:33 +0800 Subject: proxy servers in Singapore In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960817031055.006c95e4@poptart.home.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Brendon Macaraeg wrote: > Did anyone else catch the AP wire story > (it ran here in the SF Chronicle on Thursday) > about the Singapore government cracking > down on "undesirable" (e.g., sex smut, anti-govt. > postings etc.) content on web sites, usenet etc. > Their basically forcing, by law, Singapore ISPs to use > proxy servers that contain the information > that the govt. deems fit. Yep, I have that and other Singapore stuff at: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ -Declan // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From declan at eff.org Mon Aug 19 08:41:28 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:41:28 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <199608190146.SAA19133@fat.doobie.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: > > Did anyone save a copy of the altered web page? I would like to see > what the crackers did. Check out the attached message. If anyone has any info, I'd love to hear more. -Declan // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 00:50:51 -0700 >From: v0!d >To: Multiple recipients of list VOXERS-AT-LARGE >Subject: Re: quick! b4 it's gone DOJ WWW Page hacked > >At 10:59 PM -0700 8/16/96, voidmstr wrote: >>http://www.usdoj.gov/ > > >gone, but not forgotten! > >check these mirrors from alert VAL ppl: > >http://www.doobie.com/~baby-x/usdoj/ > >http://spam.ppp0.dorsai.org/dojhack/ > >i have at the source and files (mac format) @ > >http://www.primenet.com/~voidmstr/usdojhack.sit.bin > > From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Mon Aug 19 08:47:44 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:47:44 +0800 Subject: Discordians a-gogo (aggoo) In-Reply-To: <199608190658.XAA16050@infinity.c2.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, WinSock Remailer wrote: > > DISCORDIAN SOCIETY SUPER SECRET CRYPTOGRAPHIC CYPHER CODE BTW, have you ever looked really closely at a Terisa systems business card. Really closely? HAve you seen the Fnord? --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From stephen at iu.net Mon Aug 19 09:53:12 1996 From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 00:53:12 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats (getting off topic) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960819135353.009e0510@iu.net> At 11:24 PM 8/18/96 -0400, you wrote: >As I understand the proposal, the immigrant-benefits thing would be for >immigrants admitted AFTER the act was, uh, enacted. So, no ex-post-facto >problems. > > I know this is getting way off topic...but what I am not clear about is this: 1. Americans living and working in London used to be eligible for certain benefits from the British social security system, into which they are required to pay. There is a reciprocal arrangement between the US and UK on soc sec benefits and payments. The new US law seems to alter that, which could affect the US citizen living in London, as in, "sorry mate, you can't come in here with that knife wound, not without your cheque book you can't." 2. Making legal immigrants living in the US pay soc sec "taxes" without being eligible for benefits sounds pretty unfair, even "unamerican." Maybe someone who knows more about the law in these matters can clarify. Stephen From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Aug 19 10:02:51 1996 From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:02:51 +0800 Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199608191350.GAA20209@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu> I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"c2"} = " eric pgp hash reord"; $remailer{"penet"} = " penet post"; $remailer{"flame"} = " cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut post reord"; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"ecafe"} = " cpunk mix"; $remailer{"amnesia"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ksub"; $remailer{'alpha'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{'nymrod'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"lead"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"nemesis"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"vegas"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"ncognito"} = " mix cpunk pgp hash latent"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (c2 alpha) (flame replay) (alumni portal) Use "premail -getkeys pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu" to get PGP keys for the remailers. Fingering this address works too. Note: The remailer list now includes information for the alpha nymserver. Last update: Mon 19 Aug 96 6:47:01 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- balls remailer at huge.cajones.com *++******** 3:33 100.00% penet anon at anon.penet.fi .--..--...- 19:43:48 99.81% nemesis remailer at meaning.com *********** 23:25 99.71% jam remailer at cypherpunks.ca -*********** 1:42:22 99.70% winsock winsock at c2.org -__----..-- 10:02:35 99.67% replay remailer at replay.com ***+******** 4:30 99.51% amnesia amnesia at chardos.connix.com --- ------ 3:51:56 98.85% nymrod nymrod at nym.jpunix.com ###-+ # 21:25 97.41% extropia remail at miron.vip.best.com ---------- 6:30:40 95.67% mix mixmaster at remail.obscura.com -+---+++-++ 1:35:16 92.72% lead mix at zifi.genetics.utah.edu +--+++++ ++ 1:01:56 86.82% haystack haystack at holy.cow.net --##**#* - 19:17 85.11% ncognito ncognito at rigel.cyberpass.net --+ 7:57:35 15.59% alpha alias at alpha.c2.org . 5:24:22 7.71% lucifer lucifer at dhp.com + 53:57 7.27% c2 remail at c2.org . 5:59:32 6.81% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From anderson at optical.bms.com Mon Aug 19 10:11:07 1996 From: anderson at optical.bms.com (anderson at optical.bms.com) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:11:07 +0800 Subject: THE POUCH In-Reply-To: <199608181757.NAA10242@goffette.research.megasoft.com> Message-ID: <199608191407.KAA10294@zymurgy.bms.com> >>>>> "mattC" == C Matthew Curtin writes: mattC> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- mattC> Allow me to quote from your web page: mattC> http://www.flagler.com/security.html mattC> Quote #1: mattC> "The POUCH is a secure e-mail terminal program for IBM compatible mattC> computers. It uses a secret key phrase, advanced cryptographic mattC> techniques and several unpublished algorithms to protect data in the mattC> body of e-mail messages. The key phrase, which can be up to 48 bytes mattC> long, is easily remembered and communicated. The POUCH is highly mattC> resistant to all known forms of cryptographic attack." mattC> Quote #2: mattC> "We warrant that the product when delivered to you has no short cuts, mattC> covert channels or secret solutions of any kind. No other warranty, mattC> either expressed or implied is given." mattC> If it is any good, there's no way for us to know. But your marketing mattC> of the product has every indication that it's nothing more than smoke mattC> and mirrors. To coin a phrase, "pseudocrypto." To coin a phrase, "pseudocrapto" :-) Jay -- ------------------------------------------------------ James P. Anderson III anderson at optical.bms.com Senior Network Engineer N3JMC Bristol-Myers Squibb Pharmaceutical Research Institute Princeton, NJ 08543 Work: (609)-252-6039 From hfinney at shell.portal.com Mon Aug 19 10:35:11 1996 From: hfinney at shell.portal.com (Hal) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:35:11 +0800 Subject: Why BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608191403.HAA25315@jobe.shell.portal.com> mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) writes: >Your descriptions of BlackNet as a data haven seem to be completely >based upon the presumption that an anonymous contact service and contract >exchange is the functional equivalent to a data haven. Here are a few >reasons why I would disagree: I think part of the confusion here is the name "BlackNet". As I envision the concept, BlackNet is not really an anonymous contact service, or in fact a network of any sort. Rather, it is a vendor. It buys and sells information. The name, while provocative, is a bit misleading in this regard. (This is just my model, and may not actually correspond with Tim's or anyone else's idea. But I think it more closely matches the data haven concept, and in fact is more consistent with the original announcement.) BlackNet has a public key, and a known virtual location in the form of certain newsgroups that it monitors. Anyone can initiate a communication interchange with BlackNet by posting a message to those groups, encrypted with BlackNet's key. Presumably in that message will be included return address information in the form of a key and a set of locations that will be monitored for replies. In this way ongoing conversations can be maintained between BlackNet and customers who are either buying or selling to it. BlackNet would not be used (as I see it) for direct communication between buyers and sellers of information. How would the BlackNet public key fit into this model? The existence of a specific BlackNet public key is part of what drives me to picture it as a vendor. Rather, BlackNet will buy information (plus unrestricted rights to disseminate that information), add it to its catalog, and then advertise its availability and price. >As a publisher of "naughty bits" I do not have the ability to just toss >data up and assume that it will be there when someone wants it. I am forced >to continuously monitor the appropriate newsgroups to find messages from >people asking me to post the blueprints to the orbital mind control lasers >or kiddie porn. I cannot put my data onto "the Net" with an expectation >that any arbitrary user will be able to get the bits one month later. To >maintain persistence I need to constantly repost my data, making it easier >for authorities to trace me through simple taffic analysis if nothing else. This model pictures BlackNet differently than I do. As I see it, once you sell your data to BlackNet you don't have to take any more steps. There may still be problems, in that you may feel that BlackNet is setting too high a price on the data you want to distribute. However of course anyone is free to start up a competing service, if they want to take the risks. BlackNet fees will in the long run be determined by competitive market conditions based on the costs of maintaining anonymity. >[Quoting Tim May:] >> A person in the U.S. seeking the Necronomicon posts a message to BlackNet >> (or any similar forum, using the same methods) asking for a copy of it, or >> offering to pay for it. (Whether the information is free or for a fee is >> not central to the idea.) This request is, of course, untraceable. >> >> Anyone, anywhere in the world, with a copy of this banned material on his >> or her private machines may see this request and respond, either giving the >> material away, or negotiating a fee. (As I said before, the absence of a >> robust digital cash system, bidirectionally untraceable, is a known >> limitation of all such systems.) This is a little different from my picture of BlackNet, as I wrote above. I would see BlackNet as being a particular seller of information, who will respond to this message. It could have competitors like SafeHaven, StrongHold, InfoBase, etc., each of which will offer data for a price, and each of which will have its own reputation for reliability. >Now you reveal the objection I had to BlackNet being a data haven. What if >only one person has a copy of this banned material? It may not be in this >publishers interest to have the data available to anyone for posting in >response to the query ("Information does not want to be free, it wants to >be expensive and liberated...") and some data is not widespread enough or of >interest to enough people to assume that multiple copies exist to those who >read BlackNet postings. Therefore the only way for a publisher to maintain >availability of their data is to constantly monitor the appropriate newsgroups >and republish for each request, persistence is maintained only through >eternal vigilence (much like liberty, only requiring a lot more effort :) Here is where BlackNet as an information middleman makes the most sense. Its business model includes the costs of this sort of vigilance, which after all can be automated. >> It's a data haven. >No, it is an anonymous contact service. To claim this is a data haven is >like claiming that the classified ads in a newspaper are the equivalent to >a mall; you could probably find the same goods if you looked long enough, but >there is a reason that manufacturers sell goods through stores rather than >just posting classified ads across the country. When one does not have the >time to check the classified ads, wants to goods from a reputable source, and >wants the goods in a timely fashion they will go to a shopping center. Actually we now have "virtual malls" online. These are in their infancy but eventually they could become as easy to use and reliable as regular malls (for appropriate kinds of goods). All that BlackNet (as I picture it) lacks is a WWW interface, and even that could be provided if the gateway server could be made immune to legal pressure and if various technicalities about anonymous WWW connections could be dealt with. As for reputations, if BlackNet is one of several vendors of information, like its competitors, they can all develop reputations of their own for reliability, honesty, availability, etc. There may be problems if the testimonials of customers are all anonymous, but in some cases such methods as signed transcripts of information exchanges can be used by one side or the other to justify claims that the other side has cheated. Hal From declan at eff.org Mon Aug 19 10:39:07 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:39:07 +0800 Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 21:23:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list Indonesia is joining the rest of the world in cracking down on online speech. Perhaps the lesson here is that no matter how much the Internet supposedly "routes around censorship," the most vulnerable points are the humans on both ends. More info on the global net-crackdown is at: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ -Declan --- http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/96/34/special0a.html HotWired, The Netizen 19 August 1996 Trouble in Paradise by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) Washington, DC, 18 August Indonesian democracy activists have taken their fight for freedom to the Net, and the government doesn't approve. After distributing email messages about riots in Jakarta last month to an international Indonesian-politics mailing list, Prihadi Beny Waluyo, a lecturer at Duta Wacana Christian University, was arrested and interrogated by the military. Since then, the mailing list has been banned from the country and Waluyo has returned to his house, where he remains under surveillance. Until now, Indonesian cyberspace has been relatively free, with no regulations or laws explicitly restricting online discussions. By contrast, newspapers and magazines are subject to strict censorship, following a 1984 ministerial decree requiring the press to obtain licenses from the government. [...] "He [Waluyo] was arrested and accused of sending messages to Holland and printing out photocopies," said Sidney Jones, executive director of Human Rights Watch/Asia. "The army is out to stop any kind of discussion of the riots." The censor-happy regime of President Suharto tried to stop journalists from reporting on the outbreaks of violence - which shattered his carefully cultivated image of a stable Indonesia. The worst domestic disturbance in a decade, the uprising started after police stormed the headquarters of an opposition party and ejected anti-government activists from the building... [...] --- August 14, 1996 His Excellency M. Arifin Siregar Ambassador to the United States Embassy of Indonesia 2020 Mass. Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20036 Your Excellency: I am writing on behalf of Human Rights Watch/Asia to protest the arrest of Drs. Prihadi Beny Waluyo, a lecturer at Duta Wacana Christian University. Drs. Waluyo was arrested at his home by soldiers of the district military command. He was reportedly accused of distributing e-mail messages and also of sending messages relating to the July 27 riots to a destination in Holland. His arrest came after an unidentified person gave an officer photocopies of e-mail messages that were traced to Drs. Waluyo. The person claimed the printouts came from a store in Kebumen, a district of Yogyakarta. Following his arrest, Drs. Waluyo was interrogated by the military about his connections with the Peoples Democratic Party (PRD), which the government has accused of masterminding the riots, but he denied any involvement with the PRD. He acknowledged that he had sent messages over the Internet. Following his questioning, he was reportedly ordered to go to his home and was told to report to the district military command on a regular basis. He is said to be under strict surveillance. Human Rights Watch opposes actions by the Indonesian government to restrict electronic communication. As stated in Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression: this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. We believe that such forums provide a truly unique opportunity for people from around the globe to share their views with an international audience. By allowing unrestricted communication, important issues can receive the benefit of serious discussion by the broadest cross-section of society. If the Internet is to achieve its potential to become a global information infrastructure, it is important, at the present moment, to agree to allow its unrestricted development. We urge that Drs. Waluyi and every other citizen be allowed to receive and transmit electronic mail without fear of harassment, intimidation, or arrest. Sincerely, Sidney Jones Executive Director Human Rights Watch/Asia cc: His Excellency Nugroho Wisnumurti, Ambassador to the United Nations --- [Thanks to Bruce Sterling for this excerpt. --Declan] >From the INDEX ON CENSORSHIP web site: http://www.oneworld.org/index_oc/ INDONESIA It was reported in May that the government has banned the book Bayang Bayang PKI (In the Shadows of the PKI). Published by the Institute for Studies on the Free Flow of Information (ISAI), it focuses on the 1965-1966 events leading to the assumption of power by President Soeharto. It is now a criminal offence for any person to process, publish, distribute, trade or reprint the book. (A19) The government has put pressure on the media to report positively on government-backed efforts to oust the leader of the opposition Indonesian Democratic Party (PDI), Megawati Sukarno-putri. On 2 June army officers invited most of Indonesia's chief editors to attend media briefings where, among other things, they were told not to use the words 'unseat' or 'topple' in their reporting. A rally in Jakarta organised by members loyal to Megawati on 20 June was broken up by troops, who killed at least one of the protesters, and arrested hundreds. Erwin Hadi, photographer with the weekly Sinar, Iqbal Wahyudin of CNN, Tomohiko Ohtsuka of Mainichi Shimbun and Reuters photographer Enny Nuraheini were among the journalists injured by soldiers during the rally. Local stations were also banned by the government from broadcasting images of the protest or from helping foreign news agencies feed their pictures of the rally abroad. Megawati was finally ousted as PDI leader on 22 June. (Institute for Studies on the Free Flow of Information) The Supreme Court voted on 13 June to uphold the government's ban on the independent newsweekly Tempo (Index 4&5/1994, 3/1995, 1/1996). The Court ruled that the information minister has the right to revoke publishing licences since he also has the right to issue them. (Institute for Studies on the Free Flow of Information) Index Index incorporates information from the American Association for the Advancement of Science Human Rights Action Network (AAASHRAN), Amnesty International (AI), Article 19 (A19), the BBC Monitoring Service Summary of World Broadcasts (SWB), the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), the Canadian Committee to Protect Journalists (CCPJ), the Inter-American Press Association (IAPA), the International Federation of Journalists (IFJ/FIP), the International Federation of Newspaper Publishers (FIEJ), Human Rights Watch (HRW), the Media Institute of Southern Africa (MISA), International PEN (PEN), Open Media Research Institute (OMRI), Reporters Sans Frontires (RSF), the World Association of Community Broadcasters (AMARC) and other sources ### From campbell at c2.org Mon Aug 19 11:21:00 1996 From: campbell at c2.org (Rick Campbell) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:21:00 +0800 Subject: No Subject In-Reply-To: <199608190352.XAA07594@larry.infi.net> Message-ID: <9608191513.AA11169@cfdevx1.lehman.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- From: Rick Campbell To: Alan Horowitz CC: cypherpunks at toad.com In-reply-to: Alan Horowitz' message of "Sun, 18 Aug 1996 23:52:05 EDT." <199608190352.XAA07594 at larry.infi.net> From: Alan Horowitz Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 23:52:05 -0400 (EDT) P.S. I have an alpha version of a program which may be of interest to technomads: it automatically executes scripts received by email from a remote machine and then mails back the results. The scripts (shell scripts, perl scripts, or whatever) are encrypted and signed with PGP before being sent to provide security and prevent unauthorized users from executing scripts on your machine. The program runs on unix systems, and submissions can be from anything that runs PGP and is able to send email. See: Does your mechanism do anything to prevent replay attacks? Rick -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhiD+Bj0UvMeUesFAQF7ywP6ApwUwUWcSAs8+6HIvGkfogn69sFXJSc5 ExiktjjvzrG0903M/iihokr/xiICAAfeyylKJ4U6kbc7Ks4Tw2e0CJt5Bfrise/x nlkcSn1+3vV7vOBfSusvVEqhIzVCdFcoi3UgavwBFp9JanldsxUhEmyuZEgc0sgU Pg8QdEWcteo= =ghZA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wb8foz at nrk.com Mon Aug 19 11:31:52 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 02:31:52 +0800 Subject: proxy servers in Singapore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608191511.LAA08225@nrk.com> > Yep, I have that and other Singapore stuff at: > http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ > > -Declan Talk about an attractive target. Just paint a BIG bullseye on that proxy server........ -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Aug 19 12:36:29 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 03:36:29 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 3:29 AM 8/19/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: > >I suspect they are trying to get a judgement against "John Doe", in the > >hopes of tracking him down later. > > > >Actually, if I had a sizeable judgement against such a John Doe, I could > >probably find a private detective who would find the dude for a > >contingent fee. Wow, a whole new class of factoring (commerce definition) > >opens up. Get me a lawyer.... > > Lawyers out there can and should correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't > believe either the criminal or civil justice system has the concept of a > "John Doe" trial! The ability to have the advice of an attorney, to > confront one's accusers, cross-examine witnesses, and mount a defense, and > all that constitutional stuff. Rather hard to do if the trial is in the > past tense. > > Can you cite an example of such a "John Doe" trial in the U.S.? Not exactly, but judgements against John Doe's or even "$956,334.34" are common. Typically they are default judgements where a property seizure is involved. "The United States of America v. $534,444.00" and "The United States of AMerica v. One Red Porsche" is a common theme. > > (There may be trials "in absentia," more so in other countries than in the > U.S., but not when no persons have been identified at all!) > > > --Tim May, who hopes he is never identified as the "John Doe" indicted, > tried, convicted, and sentenced in 1979 in Washington County, Oregon, for > the crime of unlawful foddering in a public place. > > Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! > We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." > > > > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 19 12:42:22 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 03:42:22 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Stopped Clock. Was: Schlafly on Crypto Message-ID: <199608191657.JAA18526@mail.pacifier.com> At 01:18 AM 8/16/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >>>>Subject: Clinton Is Trying to be Big Brother -- Phyllis Schlafly Column >>It does seem really odd, doesn't it? But look at it this way: The only >>reason the knuckle-dragging conservatives are able to take the moral >>high-ground on this and other net-freedom issues is because the OTHER >>"unrependant liberals" have inexplicably abandoned the correct side of the >>argument. The fact that the conservatives are right may seem odd, but the >>behavior of the liberals is truly astonishing. > >Liberals? What Liberals? Clinton's certainly no liberal; >he's just a big-spending statist who likes to buy votes from >poor, middle-class, and yuppie voters rather than buying them >from defense contractors, not that he's above that. Well, I should have been more clear and said, "...what passes for a liberal these days." In any case, my opinion is that the WRONG airplane crashed a couple of days ago. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From nick at multipro.com Mon Aug 19 13:10:23 1996 From: nick at multipro.com (Nick West) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:10:23 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <199608191642.LAA07079@server.multipro.com> At 06:46 PM 8/18/96 -0700, you wrote: >> CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" >> to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. > >Did anyone save a copy of the altered web page? I would like to see >what the crackers did. > >Thanks. > > They showed a the page on CNN Headline News yesterday. They might show it sometime again today, stay tuned. Nick West nick at multipro.com Member of the National Wild Turkey Federation and The Libertarian Party of Tennessee http://members.tripod.com/~NWest/index.html PGP Fingerprint= F9 F7 92 D9 D3 0B 56 3E FA 2A 78 59 27 32 7D 6F Public key available on request. From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 13:23:31 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:23:31 +0800 Subject: Billy boy's satellites [Was - Floating DataHaven] Message-ID: At 12:16 AM 8/19/96, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> >> Vincent Cate wrote: >> Doesn't the low orbit part mean that the satellites will have a low life >> expectancy, meaning a new launch every couple of days? (where's Gerald >> Bull when you need him - oh yes, now I remember ...) LEO (Low Earth Orbit) is only relative to the main alternative placement for broadcast satellites: geostationary orbit, out in the Clarke Belt. LEO satellites are well above significant drag of the troposphere and are expected to remain in orbit far longer than their lifetimes as useful transponders. >The Iridium Project was pretty neat in this respect. I don't know what >is happenning with it as of now. It had some 230+ satellites, and some >smart routing techniques, if a satellite goes down. Actually, far fewer. The original number of satellites (not counting spares) was equal to the atomic number of iridium, hence the name (though maybe they altered the number of satellites to match the atomic number?). They later reduced the needed number by a few, but kept the name. An Alta Vista search on "iridium AND satellite" produces 1000 hits, so there's plent of information out there. There are also two major competing systems, also not yet deployed. One is the Microsoft-McCaw Cellular project, another is being done by an aerospace company working with Qualcomm, or a subsidiary. Again, the Web should produce the information for anyone interested. Which of the three (and maybe more) systems will actually get deployed, and which will succeed in the market, is an interesting question. There's some obvious crypto/GAK/New World Order issues: many countries may not care for a communications system which allows citizen-units or enemy agents to make phone calls from the middle of the Kalahari desert or from within the jungles of Burma. (The Israelis, for example, are insisting that all handheld units have Explosives Escrow, for detonation with appropriate official orders.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 13:47:11 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:47:11 +0800 Subject: Why BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven Message-ID: At 8:28 AM 8/19/96, Jim McCoy wrote: >Tim May writes: >> Without splitting too many semantic hairs about the precise definition of >> "data haven," let me examine some ways in which BlackNet behaves >> identically to a conventional data haven. > >I would be willing to concede the point if you would take a few seconds >to examine the issue of complete lack of persistence in BlackNet. There are various amounts of persistence, depending on which kind of "pool" is used: * Usenet newsgroups have a persistence of days to weeks, depending on one's particular site. This is enough for parties to find each other _if_ they are watching (or having agents watching). And of course Usenet archives are expected--Alta Vista and Deja News has Usenet articles going back several months in many cases. * Mailing list message pools (a la Cuperman) have an effectively infinite persistence, if parties archive the messages. * Web-based message pools, which to my knowledge have not been used yet, would have a persistence as long as the messages are archived...which could be very long. Rather than _persistence_, I'd say _access time_ or _latency_ is a more serious criticism of my approach. In contrast to a large library or bookstore, with access times of ~minutes, the access times for material on BlackNet may be ~days to ~weeks. Or, of course, "never." >Your descriptions of BlackNet as a data haven seem to be completely >based upon the presumption that an anonymous contact service and contract >exchange is the functional equivalent to a data haven. Here are a few >reasons why I would disagree: > >As a publisher of "naughty bits" I do not have the ability to just toss >data up and assume that it will be there when someone wants it. I am forced >to continuously monitor the appropriate newsgroups to find messages from >people asking me to post the blueprints to the orbital mind control lasers >or kiddie porn. I cannot put my data onto "the Net" with an expectation >that any arbitrary user will be able to get the bits one month later. To >maintain persistence I need to constantly repost my data, making it easier >for authorities to trace me through simple taffic analysis if nothing else. I grant that my version is not like a "Mega-Barnes-and-Noble" bookstore, with vast amounts of stuff available for browsing. It is more like a "stacks"-based library. (Many universities have lesser-used books, sometimes _all_ books, in "stacks," accessible only by qualified librarians, or by permission.) >> The classical data haven is closely identified with "place." To many >> people, they naturally assume "data haven" = a haven for data, a "harbor" >> (same IE root as haven) = a physical place. >> >> But is "place" important? > >No one has really claimed place is important, in fact the ideal data haven >has no physical existence whatsoever. This is a given. As a practical >matter it is a lot easier if you start off in a "place" because there are >fewer complications but this has never been a necessity. Some have focussed on "place," by focussing on ideas like offshore buoys, orbiting broadcasters, and, of course, on finding accomodating jurisdictions that will tolerate data havens in their midst. You and I may agree that data havens need to be virtual. I'm just proposing an architecture--and certainly not the final version!--that actually works. Others can suggest their own alternatives, or build on versions that are out there. >> A person in the U.S. seeking the Necronomicon posts a message to BlackNet >> (or any similar forum, using the same methods) asking for a copy of it, or >> offering to pay for it. (Whether the information is free or for a fee is >> not central to the idea.) This request is, of course, untraceable. >> >> Anyone, anywhere in the world, with a copy of this banned material on his >> or her private machines may see this request and respond, either giving the >> material away, or negotiating a fee. (As I said before, the absence of a >> robust digital cash system, bidirectionally untraceable, is a known >> limitation of all such systems.) > >Now you reveal the objection I had to BlackNet being a data haven. What if >only one person has a copy of this banned material? It may not be in this >publishers interest to have the data available to anyone for posting in >response to the query ("Information does not want to be free, it wants to >be expensive and liberated...") and some data is not widespread enough or of >interest to enough people to assume that multiple copies exist to those who >read BlackNet postings. Therefore the only way for a publisher to maintain >availability of their data is to constantly monitor the appropriate newsgroups >and republish for each request, persistence is maintained only through >eternal vigilence (much like liberty, only requiring a lot more effort :) What if only one person has a copy? Nothing in *my* concept of data haven says anything about information being free, or cheap, or widely available. Books aren't usually free, of course, so why should information be free The issue of what happens if someone buys an item and then republishes or redistributes it is, of course, orthogonal to the discussion here. It's a tough problem, and the basis of the "information wants to be free" aphorism. But not a key issue for differentiating forms of data havens, as I see things. >> It's a data haven. > >No, it is an anonymous contact service. To claim this is a data haven is >like claiming that the classified ads in a newspaper are the equivalent to >a mall; you could probably find the same goods if you looked long enough, but >there is a reason that manufacturers sell goods through stores rather than >just posting classified ads across the country. When one does not have the >time to check the classified ads, wants to goods from a reputable source, and >wants the goods in a timely fashion they will go to a shopping center. I agree with the "classified ads vs. shopping mall" distinction. In fact, it neatly summarizes the latency/availability issues. So be it. Until the "shopping mall" exists, I'll settle for the "classified ads." If BlackNet and similar systems function adequately as an anonymous classified ad system, this will be an improvement over what exists now, which is, of course, "nothing." --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From gimonca at skypoint.com Mon Aug 19 13:50:57 1996 From: gimonca at skypoint.com (Charles Gimon) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 04:50:57 +0800 Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:05:33 -0700 (PDT) > From: Declan McCullagh > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list > HotWired, The Netizen > 19 August 1996 > > Trouble in Paradise > by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) > Washington, DC, 18 August > > Indonesian democracy activists have taken their fight for freedom > to the Net, and the government doesn't approve. > > After distributing email messages about riots in Jakarta last month to > an international Indonesian-politics mailing list, Prihadi Beny > Waluyo, a lecturer at Duta Wacana Christian University, was arrested > and interrogated by the military. Since then, the mailing list has > been banned from the country and Waluyo has returned to his house, > where he remains under surveillance. > [dan lain-lain...] Exactly which mailing list was "banned from the country"? All the Indonesian mailing lists I'm on, including apakabar at clark.net, are functioning normally, with no unusual complaints or interruptions. From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 14:08:57 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:08:57 +0800 Subject: Why BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven Message-ID: At 2:03 PM 8/19/96, Hal wrote: >mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) writes: >>Your descriptions of BlackNet as a data haven seem to be completely >>based upon the presumption that an anonymous contact service and contract >>exchange is the functional equivalent to a data haven. Here are a few >>reasons why I would disagree: > >I think part of the confusion here is the name "BlackNet". As I envision >the concept, BlackNet is not really an anonymous contact service, or in >fact a network of any sort. Rather, it is a vendor. It buys and sells >information. The name, while provocative, is a bit misleading in this >regard. (This is just my model, and may not actually correspond with >Tim's or anyone else's idea. But I think it more closely matches the >data haven concept, and in fact is more consistent with the original >announcement.) Hal is right that BlackNet was presented as a _specific vendor_. But the announcement also described how _anybody_ could set themselves up in the same way, by sending out a similar announcement with their own public key. My purpose was to: -- demonstrate the coming future -- use a concrete example, "BlackNet," to drive home the point (people often pooh-pooh an abstract idea until a concrete, reified version is produced) -- stimulate debate about anonymous information markets I'll comment on a few of Hal's points, but, to save space, will not comment on most of them. >BlackNet has a public key, and a known virtual location in the form of >certain newsgroups that it monitors. Anyone can initiate a >communication interchange with BlackNet by posting a message to those >groups, encrypted with BlackNet's key. Presumably in that message will >be included return address information in the form of a key and a set of >locations that will be monitored for replies. In this way ongoing >conversations can be maintained between BlackNet and customers who are >either buying or selling to it. Exactly. And this is how it was used for several two-way communications, back in Sept-Nov '93. An article on the cover of "Information Week" last summer triggered new interest, and a couple of new messages addressed to "BlackNet"--the ones I tried to read apparently used a spoofed key, or the one Dettweiler created and placed ahead of mine on the MIT keyserver (the shorter key that the MIT group was able to eventually break). >BlackNet would not be used (as I see it) for direct communication >between buyers and sellers of information. How would the BlackNet >public key fit into this model? The existence of a specific BlackNet >public key is part of what drives me to picture it as a vendor. >Rather, BlackNet will buy information (plus unrestricted rights to >disseminate that information), add it to its catalog, and then >advertise its availability and price. It could be used for direct communications, via pools, a la the classified ad analogy that Jim McCoy just used (and that, in fairness, I used to describe it in a talk at Hackers several years ago). There is "BlackNet the company" and "BlackNet the abstraction." Inasmuch as the recipe is easy to duplicate, "BlackNet the company" would face heavy competition. ....[stuff elided]... >This is a little different from my picture of BlackNet, as I wrote above. >I would see BlackNet as being a particular seller of information, who >will respond to this message. It could have competitors like SafeHaven, >StrongHold, InfoBase, etc., each of which will offer data for a price, >and each of which will have its own reputation for reliability. Exactly. Hal quoting Jim: >>Now you reveal the objection I had to BlackNet being a data haven. What if >>only one person has a copy of this banned material? It may not be in this >>publishers interest to have the data available to anyone for posting in >>response to the query ("Information does not want to be free, it wants to ... >Here is where BlackNet as an information middleman makes the most sense. >Its business model includes the costs of this sort of vigilance, which >after all can be automated. All sorts of automated vigilance can be done: scripts that scan newsgroups and message pools, even Alta Vista-type spider searches, agents, etc. Depending on the type of message pool, whether Usenet newsgroup, mailing list, Web site, etc., various kinds of automation are possible. Which will prove popular of course depends on a lot of factors. ...[more elided]... >Actually we now have "virtual malls" online. These are in their infancy >but eventually they could become as easy to use and reliable as regular >malls (for appropriate kinds of goods). All that BlackNet (as I picture >it) lacks is a WWW interface, and even that could be provided if the >gateway server could be made immune to legal pressure and if various >technicalities about anonymous WWW connections could be dealt with. Agreed. >As for reputations, if BlackNet is one of several vendors of >information, like its competitors, they can all develop reputations of >their own for reliability, honesty, availability, etc. There may be >problems if the testimonials of customers are all anonymous, but in >some cases such methods as signed transcripts of information exchanges >can be used by one side or the other to justify claims that the other >side has cheated. Again, agreed. Evolutionary learning will take place, reputations will be strengthened and weakened, as always. Certainly some fraud will occur, as in all markets. The point being that this information market will be anarchic, in that no government or official hierarchy will rule on legality of data. Various access mechanisms will be tried. The Usenet and mailing list pools are somewhat slow, but have already worked for things like "I'd like a copy of the Church of Scientology secret documents." (In fact, in addition to "alt.religion.scientology," for discussions and requests, there is the newsgroup "alt.binaries.scientology," for posting anonymized copies of restricted documents.) That the latency is not as low as some other markets seems to be more a function of nascency (is this a word? it should be) than intrinsic limitations. ---Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jt at freenix.fr Mon Aug 19 15:28:28 1996 From: jt at freenix.fr (Jerome Thorel) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:28:28 +0800 Subject: lambda 2.10 Message-ID: netizen's --> Lambda Bulletin 2.10 <-- contents flash bulletin + French Constitution censors Internet control + Singapore and the Censorship Proxy Server + G7 and the EC take strong steps for Key Escrow Encryption * * * * * French Constitution censors Internet control As we speculated in our last bulletin (2.09), the French Conseil Constitutionnel, watchdog of the 1958 Constitution, censored 2 articles in a new telecom act which were intended to establish a kind of administrative control over Internet speech and online services. The nine "Sages" said that the creation of the Conseil Superieur de la Telematique, which would have make guidelines on Internet content, breaches article 34 of the Constitution which states that the Parliament can act alone to dictate rules concerning "civic rights and fundamentals garanties given to citizens for a fair exercice of public liberties". The CST could have undermine these principles, because the law didn't specify clearly how it would have taken its decisions. So the Conseil recognized the particular state of the Internet, which is not a basic medium. Only one section remains in the censored law : it obliges ISPs to give their clients "technical means" to forbid or select access to online services, software that allows a so-called "parental control". * * * * * Singapore and the Censorship Proxy Server A communique from SingNet, Singapore's main Internet Service Provider, states that "ALL SingNet customers will be required to connect to SingNet's proxy server by the deadline September 14th 1996, failing which you would not be able to access the web without the proxy. This applies to all dial-up, ISDN, and leased line customers (STIX customers are exempted). " The proxy server will ease the ISP to "Deny access to blacklisted sites supplied by SBA". SingNet said that "Access to sites banned by the SBA will prompt the message : The site you requested is not accessible For more information on Singapore's Internet regulation, please check http://www.gov.sg/sba/netreg/regrel.htm". On July 11 the Singapore government passed the Singapore Broadcasting Authority Act (Chapter 297) in which it announced a "Class Licence Scheme" aimed "to encourage responsible use of the Internet while facilitating its healthy development in Singapore. It encourages minimum standards in cyberspace and seeks to protect Net users, particularly the young, against the broadcast of unlawful or objectionable materials. ... SBA will focus on content which may undermine public morals, political stability and religious harmony of Singapore. However, SBA recognises that it is impossible to regulate the Internet fully. ... Singaporeans can help SBA in the identification of objectionable sites in order to keep cyberspace clean. SBA welcomes public feedback on objectionable content found on the Internet. Members of the public can write to SBA, call its toll-free hotline ... or post their views on the SBA homepage at http://www.gov.sg/sba. " China, which has created its own Internet regulations aimed at controlic data traffic and urged netizens to declare themselves to the authorities, approved the Singapore Act and an official was quoted as saying, "China has a lot to learn from Singapore's experience" (source : Fight-censorship mailing list). * * * * * G7 and the EC take strong steps for Key Escrow Encryption The European Commission's DG-13 division on information security (Infosec) opened on July 30th a "call for tenders" for "preparatory works" towards regulating encryption procedures. The plan is aimed to test the introduction of the Europe-wide network of Trusted Third Party Services (ETS). Observers saw in this move the so-called "guidelines" the EC was to propose last year, when press reports (Nature, Sept. 28, 1995) argued the Commission and the Council of Europe in Strasbourg were willing to regulate encryption use through the creation of TTPs. The Infosec call for tenders, which will end by September 30, is to "identify, define and verify ... operationnal, technical, regulatory and legal aspects ... to assess the effectiveness, economics and acceptability of Trusted Third Party Services." Other voices in European talks, however, said these "preparatory works" are to push for EU countries to adopt TTPs and the principles of key-escrow encryption. Nordic countries such as Finland, Denmark and Sweden, are said to be opposed to change encryption legislation, as France and Britain took steps in June and July to enforce the creation of TTPs in their own country. On July 30 G7 countries agreed policies that would "accelerate consultations on encryption that allows, when necessary, lawful government access to data and communications in order to prevent or investigate acts of terrorism, while protecting the privacy of legitimate communications". The EPIC, in Washington, DC, said "stronger measures sought by the US to restrict information on the Internet and limit the availabilioty of encryption were apparently not adopted by the G7 countries". Among other industrialised nations, Japan and Australia are said, like Nordic countries in Europe, to oppose key escrow as a mean to regulate the free flow of information. Remember the OECD talks in June, were the US tried to impose key-escrow legislation to the 27-countries' club of the industrial world (see lambda 2.09) ***** Soon archived on www.freenix.fr/netizen ----- Jerome Thorel =-= Journaliste/Free-lance Reporter =-= Paris, France =+= the lambda bulletin --> http://www.freenix.fr/netizen =+= From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 15:33:33 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:33:33 +0800 Subject: Agents, Spiders, Linda, and BlackNet Message-ID: Key Phrases: agents, spiders, linda, blacknet, indexing, hierarchy, alternatives to hierarchy, emergent indexing, aptical foddering, tuple spaces, virtual communities, shared environments A swirl of terms, related in some interesting ways. This mini-essay is inspired by the debate whether BlackNet is or is not a meaningful instantiation of a data haven. How can information be retrieved from the Net? Is organization needed? Who does the organizing? As the ARPANet evolved, under various names, and as UUCP and other machine-to-machine protocols evolved, the Usenet came into being. The first "message pool." A basic classification existed, mostly of fairly reputable top-level topics (sci, soc, comp, etc.). Then came "alt," largely created by our own John Gilmore. There are of course now more than 20,000 newsgroups. Searches and greps of the newsgroup list are a way to find potentially relevant newsgroups for posting a message or finding messages of interest. (As is well-known, the Usenet Cabal gets its orders from the Bilderbergers as to which newsgroups fit in with New World Order sanctioned epistemologies.) Some are saying there is an alternate method. With the advent of search engines which can index messages on the Usenet (and in Webspace, but the idea is the same), why not this alternative: put your message in a bottle and just throw it into the "sea" of possible messages. Let search engines find the messages of interest (modulo a day or two of latency, as the spiders reach the space where the message was placed). No newsgroups needed. The "keywords" list at the beginning of this message would help the search process, though of course the body of the message should have sufficient keywords; a formal keyword list or field serves mainly to remind the author to add some keywords (Schelling points) that he might not have included in his message per se. Conversations and threads would take place in a virtual meeting place, even more so than today. This is of course largely happening already, and even more clearly with mailing lists which get cc:ed to other mailing lists, e.g, the way the e-spam list forwards some of our stuff to their list and then replies pull in the orginal author. (The connection with "Linda" is the connection with David Gelernter's "Linda" system, based on "tuple spaces" into which messages are placed. A kind of sea of messages in this tuple space. The connection with the Unabomber is left as an exercise for the reader.) Sometimes hierarchy is useful. Library call numbers and indices make finding books easier than searching at random; however, sufficiently fast "library crawlers" could find even randomly-placed books. (And friends of mine are working on small RF "localizers" which, if small enough, could be placed on books. One could type in "Find "Robinson Crusoe," and a book anywhere in the library could chip "Here I am." Obviously the problem is more easily solvable for data.) With the rise of more powerful search engines, of distributed geodesic networks, and with the decentralization of naming power, I see Linda-type seas of objects as more and more attractive. This helps BlackNet-type information markets and virtual data havens. Just some ideas. Nothing new, to me at least. But I thought some of the newer list members might not have seen some of these ideas, part of the assumed culture to we crypto anarchists. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Aug 19 15:57:30 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:57:30 +0800 Subject: Why TCM thinks BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608191838.LAA11887@netcom2.netcom.com> 1st: apologies to Jim Bell for misquoting him. I think I meant Jim Mccoy. >Without splitting too many semantic hairs about the precise definition of >"data haven," let me examine some ways in which BlackNet behaves >identically to a conventional data haven. naw, let's split some semantic hairs. I am willing to agree in principle that blacknet is *similar* to a data haven, as I wrote in my response. it involves similar ideas. however, in your *original* Blacknet announcement it was explicitly portrayed to be essentially an *intelligence*service*. I agree that you could have modified this announcement to pretend that you are also providing "data haven" type services, but you didn't focus on this angle, and I object to you going back and claiming you had some priority on this idea via Blacknet (at least that's what you seem to be doing) when you really did not. of course you have been discussing data haven ideas for about as long as anybody here, and may even have some degree of precedence in inventing aspects of the idea, but I don't think it's fully legitimate to suggest that your blacknet gedanken promoted the concept of a data haven, or even contained it. you neglect key points that I and others are raising. raw data is not the same as intelligence-- it is far different. with raw data you want a mechanism that has the reliability/fidelity and access time of a hard drive, essentially. you want something that doesn't alter or reformulate data-- something the Blacknet announcement never promised at all, and in fact it was clearly implying that the service would be involved in sorting out what data to sell to whom and presumably repackaging it, so to speak. sending requests to blacknet, "can you please send me a copy of [x]" does not fit my idea of a hard drive type request. a data haven and a blacknet intelligence operation share some *similarities* but in principle there would be some vastly different implementation issues for one or the other. again, *in*theory* you could use blacknet for a data haven type arrangement. a company that provided both would make a lot of sense as far as consolodating similar functions. however to claim that you were promoting the idea of a data haven with the initial announcement of blacknet, that's just not correct imho. I'd call that Blacknet II: the Sequel which you recently cooked up. >I call this at least as functional as a "physical data haven," where >someone might physically travel to Anguilla, say, to buy a copy of the >Necronomicon... again, your original blacknet service made no guarantee whatsoever about providing data back to someone who sent it in, in unaltered form, something that would be key to a data haven. in fact it implied that the people who sent in the data wouldn't be interested in getting it back--they would only want the cash for its informational value to other buyers. you do however point out that data havens in which material sent in by some people and retrieved by others would tend to be another application. (when I think of data haven I think of person [x] submitting material in secret, and then person [x] downloading it or making it available to others based on his own decision. blacknet was explicitly making the decision of availability on its own) in fact this is a very important attribute you are glossing over with your rather slippery exposition. let's say I submit some secret data to Blacknet, and I want a guarantee they are not going to sell it to other people, even if it is encrypted by me. (otherwise they might sell it to someone who wants to break it.) the original blacknet announcement involved the antithesis of this confidentiality arrangement-- it explicitly suggested that you would use the service only to sell data that others might want. presumably they would have no use for an encrypted file they could not decrypt and might just throw it away. again, the original announcement made *no*guarantee* that Blacknet would even save your data. they could throw it away. that is your idea of a data haven? if it said, "we will also guarantee we will reliably store your data for a fee which you can retrieve"-- just that sentence and I would agree with you that the original blacknet was also a data haven. but lacking that, I disagree. notice that this is quite different than the original announcement, which implied that only the people who wanted to buy the data would submit fees to the service, not those who submit the information (who would in fact be paid by blacknet for the semantic content value) >It's a data haven. it is, after you revise it as you are doing in your recent essays. again your original announcement did not approach the data haven angle you are now emphasizing whatsoever and in some ways as I enumerate was in direct conflict with it. From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 16:07:13 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:07:13 +0800 Subject: The "Best" as the Enemy of the "Pretty Good" Message-ID: Pretty Good Privacy, Pretty Good Remailers, Pretty Good Digital Cash, Pretty Good Data Haven, ..... One of the main lessons of evolutioary learning theory (aka evolutionary game theory, market learning, Darwinian selection, and related variants) is that getting something out early is often more important than getting it "right." Rigor is important, but, interestingly, rigor is often best-established in an evolutionary learning environment. (We build machines and buildings not based on first doing exhaustive analyses for centuries, but on building actual instances and learning from mistakes...bridges that fail, buildings that collapse, planes that crash.) A recent example of this is the Xanadu project, whose members worked for many years (and spent something like $7 million) to get all the long-range, rigorous details of hypertext "right"...and were then "scooped" by Tim Berners-Lee with his simple and straightforward HTML/URL approach. (I am not basing this analysis on the hatchet jobs done in the press on Ted Nelson and the other Xanafolks, but on personal contacts with many of them, including an identical analysis from Mark Miller at an Extropaganza this past Saturday.) Another example is that of remailers. There is no denying that "DC-Nets" are a more elegant approach than "mixes," but mixes (remailers) can be easily implemented in Perl and deployed rapidly, while I know of not a single, actual, operational DC-Net. And of course we cannot forget Phil Zimmermann's "Pretty Good Privacy." Had a "pretty good" version not come out, where would we be today? (And "pretty good" does not mean PGP is weak or has been broken.) Just a reminder that often the best is the enemy of the good. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jim at ACM.ORG Mon Aug 19 16:17:19 1996 From: jim at ACM.ORG (Jim Gillogly) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:17:19 +0800 Subject: Why BlackNet *IS* a Data Haven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608191857.LAA18109@mycroft.rand.org> tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: >An article on the cover of "Information Week" last summer triggered new >interest, and a couple of new messages addressed to "BlackNet"--the ones I >tried to read apparently used a spoofed key, or the one Dettweiler created >and placed ahead of mine on the MIT keyserver (the shorter key that the MIT >group was able to eventually break). For the record, the four of us who broke the 384-bit BlackNet key weren't from MIT: Paul Leyland (Oxford), Arjen Lenstra (Bellcore), Alec Muffet (Sun-UK), and Jim Gillogly (RAND). Jim Gillogly 27 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 18:56 From rich at c2.org Mon Aug 19 16:37:41 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:37:41 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! Message-ID: You just gotta love the headline. Anyone have the URL? Seen on Newspage headlines; I assume the full text is on ClariNet. NAKED WOMAN DECAPITATES MAN ON INTERNET - Pictures of a naked young woman decapitating a man with a saw are available on the Internet, to the consternation of police in Munich who say they are unable to do anything about it. [AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE, 175 words] -rich who thought the associated press was bad From bryce at digicash.com Mon Aug 19 16:39:22 1996 From: bryce at digicash.com (bryce at digicash.com) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:39:22 +0800 Subject: search engine improvement Message-ID: <199608191931.VAA02971@digicash.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Keywords: distributed ratings systems, search engines, spiders, spiderspace, idea futures, The Shockwave Rider, John Brunner You know there is a trick that might greatly improve the effectiveness of a search engine at almost no cost to the end user. It is the well-known heuristic of "If Person A likes X and Y, and Person B likes X, then Person B probably likes Y.", combined with passive polling (which is getting information about people's opinions just by watching their actions, instead of by asking them). A first simple implementation would keep a table of the pages that people choose, keyed from the query that they originally submitted. Those pages that people choose most frequently from the list of matching pages (and/or those pages that people "stop" on-- that they do _not_ follow by further searching), would get bumped up a little in the list. This would be massively expensive in networking, storage, and computation, giving those hi-tech Alpha clusters at AltaVista something to do... :^) There are plenty of extras and refinements that could be added (for example, put some keywords identifying your "affiliation" in a separate field. It will only consider the results from other people who entered the same affiliation keywords when weighting your search results.). And there are some good topics for further discussion, such as is it worthwhile to distinguish between "relevancy" and "value"? I don't have a comprehensive list of people who are already working on this area (distributed ratings) (if I did, I might have Cc:'ed them), but I know that many people are. I hope that they and the search engine people get together and make cool stuff soon. There is the interesting issue of whether this will cause self-reinforcing "degeneration", where people (or an "affiliation"-keyed group of people) accidentally overlook a worthy page early in the game, and then, using each other's behavior to influence their own, reinforce that mistake. As a final attribution note: John Brunner thought of this idea idea in his prophetic novel _The Shockwave Rider_ in the 75. There is a wonderful line which I can't find right now, about how it turned out to be a flywheel instead of an oracle, merely aggregating human mistakes and successes. Regards, Bryce P.S. ObCryptoRelevance: Um... you could get paid for your ratings using Chaumian ecash, and even have your ratings popped into the right "affiliation" using Chaumian credentials... P.P.S. CryptoRelevance isn't very Ob anymore, is it? Just as well, IMESHO. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2 iQB1AwUBMhjA+EjbHy8sKZitAQGpIQMAyDcdHUgK9/KhNskvUG8AAbourl1Hg6J5 ZIzo7aTnDq3ZGN9RnqKRkBRRmk4hjN1rFFWvQUYtA3XQQl85scE2XVGG/oURBoTW EU4WwB2oMSsAVGkYHn02B4gFn8gO6hmA =tZn3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gary at systemics.com Mon Aug 19 16:55:12 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:55:12 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3218C83C.62319AC4@systemics.com> Black Unicorn wrote: > > On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > > Can you cite an example of such a "John Doe" trial in the U.S.? > > Not exactly, but judgements against John Doe's or even "$956,334.34" are > common. Typically they are default judgements where a property seizure is > involved. > > "The United States of America v. $534,444.00" and "The United States of > AMerica v. One Red Porsche" is a common theme. And of course since the defendant is not a person, it does not have to be presumed innocent :-( Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 From sentiono at cycor.ca Mon Aug 19 16:55:20 1996 From: sentiono at cycor.ca (Sentiono Leowinata) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:55:20 +0800 Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list Message-ID: <199608191940.QAA11322@bud.peinet.pe.ca> On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:05:33 -0700 (PDT), Declan McCullagh wrote: >Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 21:23:29 -0700 (PDT) >From: Declan McCullagh >To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu >Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list >Indonesia is joining the rest of the world in cracking down on online >speech. Perhaps the lesson here is that no matter how much the Internet >supposedly "routes around censorship," the most vulnerable points are the >humans on both ends. More info on the global net-crackdown is at: > http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ >-Declan Hi there, Just to add gasoline on the burning flame. It doesn't happen just now. It is always like that. The attention on Indonesia issues by people (western media) is too much focus on East Timor and they forget that there are much more severe violations happening. I just hope that this example will open people's eyes that Indonesian's problems are not only East Timor affairs but much more. Arrest of one mailing list's maintainer is common, you would be surprised how many people actually 'disappear' because of this. Regards, Sent. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sentiono Leowinata, sentiono at cycor.ca, 1-902-629-2488 Security Specialist - HookUp Communications. Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada. From rwright at adnetsol.com Mon Aug 19 17:11:49 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:11:49 +0800 Subject: BlackNet: Commercial Posts? Message-ID: <199608192001.NAA26620@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 19 Aug 96, 7:03, Hal wrote: > service, or in fact a network of any sort. Rather, it is a vendor. > It buys and sells information. My question to the list: Who benefits from all this publicity and brew-ha-ha? Who makes all the BlackNet money? Who really cares if it is a Data Haven or just a remailer? I'm just asking. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From alano at teleport.com Mon Aug 19 17:15:24 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:15:24 +0800 Subject: [fnord] Re: Discordians a-gogo (aggoo) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960819174537.00ac513c@mail.teleport.com> At 09:00 AM 8/19/96 -0400, Simon Spero wrote: >On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, WinSock Remailer wrote: >> >> DISCORDIAN SOCIETY SUPER SECRET CRYPTOGRAPHIC CYPHER CODE > >BTW, have you ever looked really closely at a Terisa systems business >card. Really closely? HAve you seen the Fnord? If you do not see the fnord, then it cannot eat you. ObDiscordian: Have you noticed that there are five levels of priority in Eudora? --- |"Computers are Voodoo -- You just have to know where to stick the pins."| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From mcarpent at mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu Mon Aug 19 17:21:58 1996 From: mcarpent at mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Matthew Carpenter) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:21:58 +0800 Subject: emscrypt and replay attacks In-Reply-To: <9608191513.AA11169@cfdevx1.lehman.com> Message-ID: <199608192023.PAA20241@rs6.tcs.tulane.edu> Rick Campbell writes: >> P.S. I have an alpha version of a program which may be of interest to >> technomads: it automatically executes scripts received by email from a >> remote machine and then mails back the results. The scripts (shell ... > > Does your mechanism do anything to prevent replay attacks? > > Rick Alan apparrently forwarded my message from technomads to cypherpunks, but since I'm on cypherpunks too, I got this message. Anyway, yes it does have a simple replay attack prevention mechanism. It keeps track of the most recent time and date stamp from the PGP signature info and refuses to executed any message that doesn't have a stamp more recent than previously executed script. This simple mechanism can cause unwanted rejection if scripts are received out of order, but multiple scripts can be batched into a single message to help overcome this. See the following URL for a discussion of known limitations and security concerns with emscrypt: http://www.bmen.tulane.edu/~carpente/emscrypt/emscrypt_doc.html#limits --Matt -- mcarpent at mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu PGP mail preferred, finger for public key. From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Mon Aug 19 17:31:49 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Richard Charles Graves) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:31:49 +0800 Subject: Netscape-US for foreign students at Stanford, elsewhere? Message-ID: <199608192034.NAA02945@Networking.Stanford.EDU> The US version of Netscape 3.0 has been installed in /usr/pubsw for all supported platforms, including Linux. /usr/pubsw can be mounted anonymously via AFS. Is this true at other major universities? Is anyone interested in prosecuting us? Nobody has ever complained about the PGP binary's being available for years. -rich speaking only for his evil twin skippy From frantz at netcom.com Mon Aug 19 17:38:21 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:38:21 +0800 Subject: "Utilization Review" Message-ID: <199608192029.NAA28776@netcom8.netcom.com> At 12:22 AM 8/19/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote: >I listened with horror this evening to a radio program which >discussed the state of medical record privacy today. Unfortunatly, it is still true that whoever pays the piper calls the tune. The best way to ensure medical record privacy is to eliminate medical insurance. Perhaps, within our current social order, medical savings plans are the best option on the table. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From mpd at netcom.com Mon Aug 19 17:44:23 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:44:23 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 Message-ID: <199608192034.NAA19771@netcom17.netcom.com> tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: [snip] > There are of course now more than 20,000 newsgroups. > Searches and greps of the newsgroup list are a way to find > potentially relevant newsgroups for posting a message or > finding messages of interest. > (As is well-known, the Usenet Cabal gets its orders from > the Bilderbergers as to which newsgroups fit in with New > World Order sanctioned epistemologies.) > Some are saying there is an alternate method. With the > advent of search engines which can index messages on the > Usenet (and in Webspace, but the idea is the same), why not > this alternative: put your message in a bottle and just > throw it into the "sea" of possible messages. Let search > engines find the messages of interest (modulo a day or two > of latency, as the spiders reach the space where the message > was placed). No newsgroups needed. Permit me to go off in an orthogonal direction here and say that I think that we should do away with the concept of a pre-ordained newsgroups in Usenet entirely, in favor of an IRC-like dynamic creation of message pools. One of the nice things about IRC is that if the Empire State Building suddenly blows up, you can tune to #bomb and generally find several hundred people interested in discussing it without having to go through some complicated newgroup/rmgroup/discussion procedure. The real data base of Usenet is the totality of messages, indexed by message ID, and there are so many newsgroups now that allowing the Newsgroups: line to have arbitrary contents in the message header would do little to increase the confusion. Entering each arbitrary entry in the Newsgroups: line into a secondary searchable index would provide the same functionality as we have now with the conventional arrangement of newsgroups. News software would certainly be free to map the Usenet hierarchy onto a directory structure, as is done today, or to simply keep it as a large flat database with multiple indices, or to do any combination of the above, such as an arrangement where populated newsgroups get their own directory, and everything else resides in a giant directory called "/usr/spool/news/krap." With governments creating lists of "banned" newsgroups, and an official creation process managed by the "Cabal", Usenet is much more vulnerable to state control than it would be if newsgroups were simply arbitrary strings which existed somewhere in the current window into the history file. A newsgroup would then exist if there were messages in it, and wouldn't exist if it had remained unused for some reasonable period of time. Now that search engines are becoming the best way to read Usenet anyway, and the Newsgroups: line is just another field in a set of search specifications, there is no reasonable reason to limit what may be placed there to some list of "20,000" pre-defined strings, or some government controlled subset of the above. If Singapore bans alt.sex.hooters, you could simply post to alt.culture.singapore.i.got.your.hooters.right.here. This would effectly jerk the rug out from under the "banned newsgroups" gestapo, and create a namespace so large you would always be able to construct an appropriately suggestive new entry in the compliment of any part that was blocked. It would also send the correct message that "newsgroups" are simply one of many labels on an article, and are not cyberspacial tearooms where bad people congregate and there is guilt by association. The alternative to doing something reasonable like this is probably to see mass migration from "banned newsgroups" to off-topic groups, like Lolita pictures in rec.pets.cats, when the inevitable crackdown comes. As long as people can post anonymously, they will simply switch to another existing newsgroup when the one they are posting to becomes blocked. Once the inevitable reciprocal pissing contest between posters and censors gets going, Usenet as we know it will likely be destroyed. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From pjn at nworks.com Mon Aug 19 18:01:44 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:01:44 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web si Message-ID: In> CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" In> to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. They broke in and posted obscene messages and pornographic pictures... P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... Captian's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From alanh at infi.net Mon Aug 19 18:06:26 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:06:26 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Look at the bulletin board of your county courthouse. John Doe parties are not unusual at all. Everyone is deemed to have constructive notice of notices on that board; furthermore, every jurisdiction I've ever seen, also provides for the _publication_ of process. Ya know, that stuff in teensie-weensie print in the back of newspapers. Most peoplke don't read that stuff. Some people do. It opens up a flavor of arbitraging. From alanh at infi.net Mon Aug 19 18:07:09 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:07:09 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <9608191513.AA11169@cfdevx1.lehman.com> Message-ID: I didn't write the message, "I have an Alpha...." From perry at alpha.jpunix.com Mon Aug 19 18:09:26 1996 From: perry at alpha.jpunix.com (John Perry) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:09:26 +0800 Subject: Nymrod is shutting down Message-ID: <87pw4nm38n.fsf@alpha.jpunix.com> The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted as well. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The nymserver located at nymrod.jpunix.com is shutting down due to abuse. The type-I/type-II MiddleMan remailers are unaffected. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhjnFVOTpEThrthvAQFcQAP+LYtkT16wJGmmzbYymzRJv1IRdVotwvrY 4hUKn5y+TyCTWoyHQlUR3//L0nRPzViqm1GBeT4Tw88kmEvmRSguCYTxuNV3gr6t n8gOP/MKoYTZ1tdxYRMDd+LN2I4j2phUF90sItiLT04/JD65CwRNblD0bFWSbGr7 X8YiOIVkxTQ= =VA6N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alanh at infi.net Mon Aug 19 18:14:40 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:14:40 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats (getting off topic) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960819135353.009e0510@iu.net> Message-ID: It sounds unfair, for sure. However, the whole thing is a fraud based upon a myth. FICA witholding is NOT credited to an individual's account, or even to Social Security benefits in general. By statutory law, all such receipts go into the Treasury's general fund. So, they are NOT "social security contributions". Period. From aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk Mon Aug 19 18:15:05 1996 From: aba at dcs.ex.ac.uk (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:15:05 +0800 Subject: CS8191 data sheet and ordering info... In-Reply-To: <199608171837.LAA20948@comsec.com> Message-ID: <199608190407.FAA00152@server.test.net> Eric Blossom (CSC) writes: > > Communication Security Corporation > CS8191 Triple-DES Telephone Privacy Device > [...] > Specifications: > > Modem > > * ITU V.32bis (14,400 bits/sec) > > * International standard GSM 06.10 full rate speech transcoding > (13,000 bits/sec) > > > Cryptographic Details: > > * Unique session key generated for each conversation using Diffie-Hellman > exponential key exchange (2048 bit modulus) (U.S. Patent No. 4,200,770 > licensed by Cylink Corporation) > > * Defense against "man in the middle" active attack using interleave > protocol combined with voice verification of six digit key name derived > from the public exponentials > > * Hardware Random number generator based on Johnson noise > > * Three Key Triple-DES (168 bit key), operating in modified counter mode. To anyone who's read the PGPfone docs, this sounds very similar, PGPfone uses 3DES (as one option: also CAST, Blowfish), but it's a 2 key 3DES rather than 3 key (I think). PGPfone works with 9600/14400/28800 modems, uses Diffie Hellman key exchange, uses a commitment to exchanges by passing the hashes of the exchanges prior to traditional dh key-exchange (we'll see if this compares to what is described here as an `interleave protocol'). PGPfone offers several GSM codecs. Do you see any barrier to PGPfone being able to interoperate with your product once your specs are published? (Aside from a fast PC/MAC to keep up -- 3DES is the most computationaly expensive encryption algorithm used by PGPfone). Also I believe I read somewhere in your announce that upgrades are possible -- can these happen in software only? Flash BIOS upgrade? If it is software upgradable are you releasing the programming specs also? A very nice product, sure beats the hell out of clipper based phones, and the various snake oil offerings, Adam -- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Charles Gimon wrote: [...] > > Trouble in Paradise > > by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) > > Washington, DC, 18 August > > > > Indonesian democracy activists have taken their fight for freedom > > to the Net, and the government doesn't approve. > > > > After distributing email messages about riots in Jakarta last month to > > an international Indonesian-politics mailing list, Prihadi Beny > > Waluyo, a lecturer at Duta Wacana Christian University, was arrested > > and interrogated by the military. Since then, the mailing list has > > been banned from the country and Waluyo has returned to his house, > > where he remains under surveillance. > > [dan lain-lain...] > > Exactly which mailing list was "banned from the country"? All the > Indonesian mailing lists I'm on, including apakabar at clark.net, are > functioning normally, with no unusual complaints or interruptions. Never mind the details. What's important is that this is yet another example of net censorship, like the Berkeley administration's reading student email and the FBI's monitoring and disrupting patriot email. It's really sad, the difference between HRW/AI and Wired. You know, Amnesty has some outstanding policies regarding accuracy, objectivity, and universality. That's why they're accorded such respect. Human Rights Watch, which has only been around since the late 70's and committed a few major faux pas in Central America, is still learning. Wired decided that it had all the answers years ago. - -rich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMhjoIJNcNyVVy0jxAQG4rwH+L0du5/Ykcz1zu0VXjdQgS/5b9KVVmRbQ Bj7nFO5P87+oZzw9JlBCMrVNZ4tM4oIxoKKhA/O8PytUd7T6B0U0yA== =xQVR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 19 18:44:44 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:44:44 +0800 Subject: Phoneco vs X-Phone Message-ID: <199608192246.PAA08982@mail.pacifier.com> At 04:02 AM 8/20/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> >> Well, let's consider such costs. Most of which (maintenance, management, >> rolling stock) are unrelated to amount of telephone usage. So there is no >> reason that these costs should be unequally attributed to a person who makes >> local calls 1 hour per day, as opposed to another who only calls 15 minutes >> per day, for example. >> >> As for the "laying new pipes" issue: Years ago in the the US, when >> inter-central-office trunk connections were all implemented using large >> bundles of copper pairs, it would have been _correct_ to say that higher >> telephone usage resulted in larger costs, since more trunk lines were >> necessary. Today, on the other hand, inter-office trunks (at least the new >> ones, and I presume that even many of the old ones have been switched over) >> are implemented in fiber optics. Extra capacity is either automatically >> available (since the capacity of a given fiber is unlikely to be fully used) >> or can be fairly simply added by converting old fiber from about 450 >> megabits per second to 2.4 gigabits, or even faster rates which have become >> more recently available. >> > >Your view point doesn't really fit the facts, but since it is not the >issue here, I'll let it go. What do you mean, "doesn't really fit the facts"?!? What part of it was incorrect? Fiber-optic _is_ commonly used in inter-office trunks, right? It doesn't wear out, right? Higher usage doesn't entail greater costs, right? The capacity, while not strictly infinite, is high enough so expanded usage doesn't strain most links, right? Finally, modern phone switches have sufficient connect capacity so that they can handle usage which would have been considered "unusual" by yesteryear's standards. All of this points to an obvious conclusion: Telephone companies do not, in general, have increased costs as a consequence of increased telephone usage. Here's what I think is _really_ going on: You have decided that you think the costs of the telephone system should be apportioned by usage EVEN IF higher usage is no more costly to provide. That's why you don't want to disprove my claims. You're afraid that you'll have to say, "Yes, you're right Jim, but I _still_ think billing should be porportional to use." >Can't resist like someone has to pay those 80,000+ >employees at AT+T. Some of whom are probably unnecessary. Interestingly enough, the rumor is that half the costs for LD are in billing and customer service. Most of these costs would disappear if LD was unmetered. > >> >But you miss my point, if a phoneco is not getting a penny for its long >> distanceservices (which subsidise the flat rate local calls) then the choice >> would >> >be to close down. Which would be a severe attack to the local internet usage. >> >> That's an entirely unsupported claim. Nobody claims that telephone usage >> (term used generically) is on the way out. "Closing down" is only going to >> happen if local phonecos cease to be able to provide a service that people >> are willing to pay for. > >Exactly! Once "X-Phone" has its servers in US Cities, and its charging 10 cents >a minute for long distance calls, I don't see if the phonecos would be able to provide any service that people are willing to pay for, I mean they won't >be able to provide matching lucrative rates. I am confident that local phonecos can remain competitive even against "free" Internet telephone service. What they need to do is simple: Entirely remove the LD/local subsidy, remove metering on LD (as well as local), bill yearly for far lower costs, etc. Once this is done, LD will be "free", at least on a marginal basis, so no customer will have any motivation to move to "Internet telephone" service. >You mean to say that, X-Phone will take advantage of the phoneco and mint >money for a minimal investment, whereas the phoneco who spent billions on the >infrastructure will be just whistle down the road, and let the X-Phone >indulge in its own cyberdo. In the US, the current telephone company infrastructure is ALREADY PAID FOR. It was paid for by over-inflated rates during a monopolized era. If anything, the locals have an "unfair advantage" over the rest of the companies: Only they have a copper pair into every home. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From printing at explicit.com Mon Aug 19 19:11:56 1996 From: printing at explicit.com (William Knowles) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:11:56 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > You just gotta love the headline. Anyone have the URL? Dan's Gallery of the Grotesk http://www.grotesque.com The series is 'Natural Born Losers' Where this biker chick and her new boyfriend perform a sex act with the soon to be dead ex-boyfriend, and then they both use a hacksaw to chop the poor fellow into pieces. The couple shot the film and dropped it off to a 'friend' at a one-hour photo place and someone else looked at the photos and called the police. Don't eat *anything* before viewing these pictures! > Seen on Newspage headlines; I assume the full text is on ClariNet. > > NAKED WOMAN DECAPITATES MAN ON INTERNET - Pictures of a naked young > woman decapitating a man with a saw are available on the Internet, to > the consternation of police in Munich who say they are unable to do > anything about it. [AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE, 175 words] > > -rich > who thought the associated press was bad William Knowles Graphically Explicit printing at explicit.com -- Graphically Explicit Advertising PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/415D7FF9 PGP Fingerprint D3 45 A4 38 73 99 77 4A 98 BB A2 81 97 68 73 03 -- Explicit isn't a dirty word, Or is it? From maldrich at grci.com Mon Aug 19 19:33:45 1996 From: maldrich at grci.com (Mark O. Aldrich) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:33:45 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: Yes, it's true. Her boyfriend kills the guy while she's giving him a blow job. Then they "get naked," hack up the body, and pose various body parts in, uh, 'interesting' positions. The whole story's on the Web site. Check them out at: http://www.grotesque.com/ The web site is the Gallery of the Grotesque. The "exhibit" you're looking for is the "Natural Born Losers" section. Other sections are also fascinating if you like this sort of stuff. > You just gotta love the headline. Anyone have the URL? > > Seen on Newspage headlines; I assume the full text is on ClariNet. > > NAKED WOMAN DECAPITATES MAN ON INTERNET - Pictures of a naked young > woman decapitating a man with a saw are available on the Internet, to > the consternation of police in Munich who say they are unable to do > anything about it. [AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE, 175 words] > > -rich > who thought the associated press was bad > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Just as the strength of the Internet is |Mark Aldrich | |chaos, so the strength of our liberty |GRCI INFOSEC Engineering | |depends upon the chaos and cacophony of |maldrich at grci.com | |the unfettered speech the First Amendment|MAldrich at dockmaster.ncsc.mil | |protects - District Judge Stewart Dalzell| | |_______________________________________________________________________| |The author is PGP Empowered. Public key at: finger maldrich at grci.com | | The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author | | and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Scottauge at aol.com Mon Aug 19 19:45:59 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:45:59 +0800 Subject: No Subject - Lesson in cracking (cryptoanalysis 001) Message-ID: <960819193406_263572605@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-08-19 05:44:34 EDT, you write: > SAMPLE MESSAGE: ("HAIL ERIS") > > CONVERSATION: > A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 > > STEP 1. Write out the message (HAIL ERIS) and put all the vowels at the end > (HLRSAIEI) > STEP 2. Reverse order (IEIASRLH) > STEP 3. Convert to numbers (9-5-9-1-19-18-12-8) > STEP 4. Put into numerical order (1-5-8-9-9-12-18-19) > STEP 5. Convert back to letters (AEHIILRS) > > This cryptographic cypher code is GUARANTEED TO BE 100% UNBREAKABLE. > > Hmmmmm, lets see here.... The numbers are one to one with the letters - hence this suggests a frequency attack right off the bat. You see, poor pathetic soul, if we know the algorithm, as you have spelt it out, and we know the alphabet of the plaintext (thats the message your trying to protect), we know that the language has certain letters used more frequently than others. Like, ya know "e" is a very popular letter, so is t and s. Collect enough cypher text and ya just match frequency to frequency - a high number of 6's are replaced with an e, and so on down the line. QED why you don't go one to one with the alphabet. OK, so we got the letters we are interested in working with. Now, still knowing the language the alphabet represents, we know that certain letters usually follow other letters. For example, re, ent, th, st, ing, need I really go on? Now we just start chunking up the peices according to spelling rules we know about - then with the help of a handy dandy spell checker like thing, when we get close to a word, we clump the chunks together. Actually, mixing your letters around helps cuz one needs to do a lot of shuffling here - but believe me, algorithms are out there. Plus, the more cipher text you provide, the easier it is to nab your info cuz there is more information for the particular algorithm I'm thinking of to work with. Once ya get a likely set of words, ya start looking for a pattern that can get ya these set of words into and gain the original pattern. QED why one does not depend on shuffling for protection. Anyone else wanna explain things too? From ichudov at algebra.com Mon Aug 19 19:55:02 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:55:02 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <199608191642.LAA07079@server.multipro.com> Message-ID: <199608200008.TAA16708@manifold.algebra.com> Nick West wrote: > > > >Did anyone save a copy of the altered web page? I would like to see > >what the crackers did. > > > They showed a the page on CNN Headline News yesterday. They might show it > sometime again today, stay tuned. Now I have the "Department of INJUSTICE" Web page on my personal Web page, http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov (follow the links). A tarred and gsipped content is available for download and mirroring. I personally find the web page very well and artistically done, and extremely funny. The guy who did it had a good taste. - Igor. From frantz at netcom.com Mon Aug 19 20:01:12 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:01:12 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 Message-ID: <199608200001.RAA02120@netcom8.netcom.com> At 1:34 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote: >Permit me to go off in an orthogonal direction here and say that >I think that we should do away with the concept of a pre-ordained >newsgroups in Usenet entirely, in favor of an IRC-like dynamic >creation of message pools. Moderated newsgroups gain reputation from their moderation policies and probably should not be included in this scheme. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From wendigo at pobox.com Mon Aug 19 20:06:20 1996 From: wendigo at pobox.com (Mark Rogaski) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:06:20 +0800 Subject: [fnord] Re: Discordians a-gogo (aggoo) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960819174537.00ac513c@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <199608200031.UAA17032@charon.gti.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An entity claiming to be Alan Olsen wrote: : : ObDiscordian: Have you noticed that there are five levels of priority in Eudora? Or that RFC23 is entitled "Transmission of multiple control messages"? - -- Mark Rogaski | Why read when you can just sit and | Member GTI System Admin | stare at things? | Programmers Local wendigo at gti.net | Any expressed opinions are my own | # 0xfffe wendigo at pobox.com | unless they can get me in trouble. | APL-CPIO -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhkHUA0HmAyu61cJAQFFIgP8CFjdpNaPJ2vCqX5nlc+TRpCjt1FgyMvg FSd7PzwSgFu5jTXgeuWgZE/JkZ+6iZPo7vFdKgAGxU+pKok3jkXspgk38JP3Q4ay uR1+GHq0auHbY5kGZseyzGPRBOAHglxUxMO41n67e7FdwoYuO1DeQVura8hGTYAr kd94gHuvTFE= =vNwc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From skeeve at skeeve.net Mon Aug 19 20:23:26 1996 From: skeeve at skeeve.net (Skeeve Stevens) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:23:26 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <199608191642.LAA07079@server.multipro.com> Message-ID: <199608200036.KAA08028@zztop.myinternet.net> You, Nick West, said about something or other: + +At 06:46 PM 8/18/96 -0700, you wrote: +>> CNN online (http://www.cnn.com) is reporting a "breakin" by "hackers" +>> to the DOJ web site. They don't elaborate exactly how thy did it. +> +>Did anyone save a copy of the altered web page? I would like to see +>what the crackers did. +> +>Thanks. +> +> +They showed a the page on CNN Headline News yesterday. They might show it +sometime again today, stay tuned. Altavisa/Yahoo search "Department of Injustice" -------------------------------------------------------------------- Skeeve Stevens Email: skeeve at skeeve.net CEO/The Big Boss/All round nice guy URL: http://www.skeeve.net/ MyInternet Australian Anglicans Online http://www.myinternet.net/ http://www.anglican.asn.au/ Phone: (+612) 869-3334 Mobile: (0414) SKEEVE [+61414-753-383] Key fingerprint = D2 7E 91 53 19 FE D0 5C DE 34 EA AF 7A 5C 4D 3E From rich at c2.org Mon Aug 19 20:25:05 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:25:05 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There seems to be some confusion about the facts of the case, i.e., whether the pictures really came from a case that was solved. I assume that that will all be cleared up, but I'm not laughing anymore. I can imagine some kid gleefully accepting such pics to put up on a grotesque page as an anti-censorship demonstration -- and then finding out that he had the only evidence to an unsolved crime. -rich From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Mon Aug 19 20:53:17 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:53:17 +0800 Subject: "Utilization Review" In-Reply-To: <199608192029.NAA28776@netcom8.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Bill Frantz wrote: > At 12:22 AM 8/19/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote: > >I listened with horror this evening to a radio program which > >discussed the state of medical record privacy today. > > Unfortunatly, it is still true that whoever pays the piper calls the tune. > The best way to ensure medical record privacy is to eliminate medical > insurance. Or even better: don't get sick. > Perhaps, within our current social order, medical savings plans > are the best option on the table. What alternative social orders can you envision that would handle this problem elegantly? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Medical savings plans do not work for anyone but the extremely rich and healthy, because few normal people can self-insure to cover the risk. With pooled risk, the prospective customer has the right to know the risks already in the pool before diving in. Contracts based on infinite uncertaintly tend not to work. There's also the little matter of letting your doctor know your medical history. That data needs to be stored somewhere in clear text (as respects my lack of involvement in the release, that is). If I'm unconscious, I can't tell them my passphrase. -rich From scraver at mnet.fr Mon Aug 19 20:55:57 1996 From: scraver at mnet.fr (Arnauld Dravet) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:55:57 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32191CBE.63076145@mnet.fr> Rich Graves wrote: > > You just gotta love the headline. Anyone have the URL? > > Seen on Newspage headlines; I assume the full text is on ClariNet. > > NAKED WOMAN DECAPITATES MAN ON INTERNET - Pictures of a naked young > woman decapitating a man with a saw are available on the Internet, to > the consternation of police in Munich who say they are unable to do > anything about it. [AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE, 175 words] > > -rich > who thought the associated press was bad U should try www.grotesque.com i dunno if it exists any longer cya sChTrOuMf From vldiaz at adnc.com Mon Aug 19 21:01:17 1996 From: vldiaz at adnc.com (Vincent L. Diaz) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:01:17 +0800 Subject: Agents, Spiders, Linda, and BlackNet Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960819180929.322f402c@mail.adnc.com> Tim: At 10:58 AM 8/19/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Key Phrases: agents, spiders, linda, blacknet, indexing, hierarchy, >alternatives to hierarchy, emergent indexing, aptical foddering, tuple >spaces, virtual communities, shared environments (Snip) >Just some ideas. Nothing new, to me at least. But I thought some of the >newer list members might not have seen some of these ideas, part of the >assumed culture to we crypto anarchists. I currently subscribe to DigitalLiberty and am very new to Cypherpunks. I wanted to thank you for thinking of us "Newbies" in the Crypto field with this submission. I hope that your will at some time in the future seriously consider a comprehensive book on this and other subjects skewed towards the general public. Regards, VINCENT L. DIAZ U-SAVE COMMUNICATIONS Business Line: 619-277-2411 Fax Line: 619-277-0298 http://www.cognigen.com/agencies/ From DMiskell at envirolink.org Mon Aug 19 21:05:08 1996 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:05:08 +0800 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <199608200120.VAA05671@envirolink.org> So, how do you UNDO the encryptation? Gee, no wonder it's uncrackable. Daniel. From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Mon Aug 19 21:10:51 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:10:51 +0800 Subject: search engine improvement In-Reply-To: <199608191931.VAA02971@digicash.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 bryce at digicash.com wrote: [good ideas about distributed ratings systems] > There is the interesting issue of whether this will cause > self-reinforcing "degeneration", where people (or an > "affiliation"-keyed group of people) accidentally overlook a > worthy page early in the game, and then, using each other's > behavior to influence their own, reinforce that mistake. It probably will. But people like being degenerates. Another interesting issue for privacy is setting the granularity of the information. If you know that only a few people have visited site A, and you tell the distributing service that you like site A, then the rating service has the potential to become a way to track people (to a certain margin of error). Were I running such a service, I wouldn't hand out information until enough static had accumulated to provide anonymity. -rich From zachb at netcom.com Mon Aug 19 21:21:57 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:21:57 +0800 Subject: No Subject - Lesson in cracking (cryptoanalysis 001) In-Reply-To: <960819193406_263572605@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: [highly insecure algorithm snipped] Scottauge at aol.com wrote: [very nice explanation of why above algorithm is insecure snipped] > > Anyone else wanna explain things too? > No, but I have this really great crypto program right here thet I'll give to you if you perform just a little debugging on it!!! It uses the well-known and well-tested Noitutitsbus method and is GUARANTEED to be COMPLETELY UNBREAKABLE!!! Get your copy NOW before its cracked...er...gone! :) --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 21:37:26 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:37:26 +0800 Subject: BlackNet: Commercial Posts? Message-ID: At 1:05 PM 8/19/96, Ross Wright wrote: >On Or About 19 Aug 96, 7:03, Hal wrote: > >> service, or in fact a network of any sort. Rather, it is a vendor. >> It buys and sells information. > >My question to the list: > >Who benefits from all this publicity and brew-ha-ha? Who makes all >the BlackNet money? Who really cares if it is a Data Haven or just a >remailer? I'm just asking. Well, obviously I do. I receive $1.42 for every posting which mentions BlackNet, 7% of gross sales for all commercial transactions, and 12.5% plus a sliding finder's fee for all military and intelligence secrets sold via BlackNet. But all true paranoiacs knew this. --Aldrich Ames Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 19 21:56:30 1996 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:56:30 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <199608181037.MAA14188@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <4vb5ud$skn@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <3216F54C.425C at netscape.com>, Jeff Weinstein wrote: >Alex de Joode wrote: >> >> Jeff Weinstein (jsw at netscape.com) wrote: >> >> : The final release of Navigator 3.0, complete with non-exportable >> : strong crypto, is now available for download by US citizens. Note >> : that this is the released version of 3.0, so it will not expire. >> : You can get it from: >> >> Would it be possible to both supply an Linux ELF and a.out binary ? > > No, we will only be supplying ELF. Since linux is not officially >supported, we really don't have the resources to do multiple versions. > Not to mention that plugins are virtually impossible with a.out... - Ian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhkbBUZRiTErSPb1AQF5fgP/V6r/aWB7KML48S4y0+MFaAb9XIaUxOQX tRZNSJoRAldSveIxli5nAHN/BI7XGPgIcEmS992PWWJfkEtt+ogmtm6VpXRGf+pa 2bWpf01+4UYZddhH2UnjVlkd9cDigtmkXd4SVJBO5ebHEBMzesQvDOaUJeXshT7S eWdxPj8lOh8= =VErV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From shamrock at netcom.com Mon Aug 19 21:59:12 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:59:12 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Mark O. Aldrich wrote: > On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > > Yes, it's true. Her boyfriend kills the guy while she's > giving him a blow job. Then they "get naked," hack up the body, and pose > various body parts in, uh, 'interesting' positions. The whole story's on > the Web site. Check them out at: > > http://www.grotesque.com/ That was intense... --Lucky From mpd at netcom.com Mon Aug 19 22:41:22 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:41:22 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608200300.UAA25571@netcom8.netcom.com> Lucky Green writes: > That was intense... It was... "different" -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From declan at eff.org Mon Aug 19 23:04:54 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:04:54 +0800 Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Charles Gimon wrote: > [...] > > > Trouble in Paradise > > > by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) > > > Washington, DC, 18 August > > > > > > Indonesian democracy activists have taken their fight for freedom > > > to the Net, and the government doesn't approve. > > > > > > After distributing email messages about riots in Jakarta last month to > > > an international Indonesian-politics mailing list, Prihadi Beny > > > Waluyo, a lecturer at Duta Wacana Christian University, was arrested > > > and interrogated by the military. Since then, the mailing list has > > > been banned from the country and Waluyo has returned to his house, > > > where he remains under surveillance. > > > > [dan lain-lain...] > > > > Exactly which mailing list was "banned from the country"? All the > > Indonesian mailing lists I'm on, including apakabar at clark.net, are > > functioning normally, with no unusual complaints or interruptions. > > Never mind the details. What's important is that this is yet another example > of net censorship, like the Berkeley administration's reading student email > and the FBI's monitoring and disrupting patriot email. > > It's really sad, the difference between HRW/AI and Wired. You know, Amnesty > has some outstanding policies regarding accuracy, objectivity, and > universality. That's why they're accorded such respect. Human Rights Watch, > which has only been around since the late 70's and committed a few major > faux pas in Central America, is still learning. Wired decided that it had > all the answers years ago. Rich is frothing again. Time to killfile him again. Note he contributes nothing of substance except a vapid anti-Wired rant that has been done better elsewhere, like www.howtired.com. (Personally, I don't even read Wired much anymore. To each his own.) As for UCB and the FBI threads, Rich is talking about back fight-censorship discussions. He seems to think that I endorse every message I forward to a mailing list. He is incorrect. (Rather, I offer the information to the list, as Judge Sloviter took Olsen's testimony, "for what it's worth.") Back to Indonesia -- my column should have said the Indonesian military is *trying* to ban the mailing list from the country. They haven't succeeded yet. Time will tell. I have more information on Indonesia at http://www2.eff.org/~declan/global/ -- right now, use the www2 address since not all directories seem to be updating on the mirror servers properly right now. -Declan // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 19 23:06:25 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:06:25 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 In-Reply-To: <199608192034.NAA19771@netcom17.netcom.com> Message-ID: [I know the group-advice-lackey-Goebbels-reincarnation-stooge is reading this, but he probably doesn't have the balls to reply] mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes: > One of the nice things about IRC is that if the Empire State > Building suddenly blows up, you can tune to #bomb and generally > find several hundred people interested in discussing it without > having to go through some complicated newgroup/rmgroup/discussion > procedure. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to rmgroup a usenet newsgroup once it gets created. Many sites ignore all rmgroups. In fact, many large sites now ignore all newgroups unless a user specifically asks to carry a new newsgroup. I believe the main reason why most newsadmins seem to want to have some restrictions on newgrouping is the lack of efficient rmgrouping. If we could newgroup misc.news.current-events.empire-state-bombing and then have it disappear quetly and automatically once the non-spam traffic is gone, I'm sure a lot fewer people would object to its creation. > The real data base of Usenet is the totality of messages, indexed > by message ID, and there are so many newsgroups now that allowing > the Newsgroups: line to have arbitrary contents in the message > header would do little to increase the confusion. Entering each > arbitrary entry in the Newsgroups: line into a secondary > searchable index would provide the same functionality as we have > now with the conventional arrangement of newsgroups. Assuming that this is done, why bother with newgroup/rmgroup at all? If you think comp.language.algol is a worthwhile newsgroup (as I do), just put it in your header and see if anyone sees your article. Well-named keywords in Newsgroups: will act as these Snelling(?) points senile Tim ranted about. > With governments creating lists of "banned" newsgroups, and an > official creation process managed by the "Cabal", Usenet is much > more vulnerable to state control than it would be if newsgroups > were simply arbitrary strings which existed somewhere in the > current window into the history file. A newsgroup would then > exist if there were messages in it, and wouldn't exist if it had > remained unused for some reasonable period of time. The reason for Cabal's existence is twofold. First, it is a bunch of control freaks who want to be in charge and get a kick out of telling users "you can't do this". Second, sysadmins are willing to put up with this shit because they think they need some means to control newsgrouping. > Now that search engines are becoming the best way to read Usenet > anyway, and the Newsgroups: line is just another field in a set > of search specifications, there is no reasonable reason to limit > what may be placed there to some list of "20,000" pre-defined > strings, or some government controlled subset of the above. Absolutely. > If Singapore bans alt.sex.hooters, you could simply post to > alt.culture.singapore.i.got.your.hooters.right.here. This > would effectly jerk the rug out from under the "banned > newsgroups" gestapo, and create a namespace so large you would > always be able to construct an appropriately suggestive new entry > in the compliment of any part that was blocked. Yes. > It would also send the correct message that "newsgroups" are > simply one of many labels on an article, and are not cyberspacial > tearooms where bad people congregate and there is guilt by > association. > > The alternative to doing something reasonable like this is > probably to see mass migration from "banned newsgroups" to > off-topic groups, like Lolita pictures in rec.pets.cats, when the > inevitable crackdown comes. As long as people can post > anonymously, they will simply switch to another existing > newsgroup when the one they are posting to becomes blocked. Once > the inevitable reciprocal pissing contest between posters and > censors gets going, Usenet as we know it will likely be > destroyed. Usenet as I knew it 1- years ago has already been destroyed. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 19 23:15:19 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:15:19 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! Message-ID: At 2:00 AM 8/20/96, Lucky Green wrote: >On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Mark O. Aldrich wrote: > >> On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: >> >> Yes, it's true. Her boyfriend kills the guy while she's >> giving him a blow job. Then they "get naked," hack up the body, and pose >> various body parts in, uh, 'interesting' positions. The whole story's on >> the Web site. Check them out at: >> >> http://www.grotesque.com/ >That was intense... But not as intense as it could be with Internet video! BTW, I've linked this page to my "A Childe's Own Primer on the Net," but I have warned young impressionables to only view the page if they want to see something gross. (Since no child wants to see something gross, this should deter them.) I wonder how the images were gotten? The site mentions that they were entered as evidence in the trial of the two bikers, but presumably the photo evidence would have been sealed. Not that this means much, given that the autopsy photos of Nicole Brown Simpson made it out onto the Net shortly after being taken. (I guess one of the evidence clerks or attorneys had a scanner and access to a remailer....) I do expect this to be added to the list of evils that the peo-CDA attorneys will cite. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From m5 at tivoli.com Mon Aug 19 23:21:30 1996 From: m5 at tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:21:30 +0800 Subject: Taxes on Internet access prediction Message-ID: <32193A1F.31BB@tivoli.com> States and municipalities are taxing internet access. Who wants to make a prediction about if/when the IRS will start to count net access as a taxable fringe benefit of employment? (At a small company where I once worked, a tax accountant visiting one day noticed that we had a weight bench set up in a back corner of the big "back room". He advised us to be careful, because the IRS could count that as a taxable employee benefit.) -- ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From bdurham at metronet.com Mon Aug 19 23:35:07 1996 From: bdurham at metronet.com (Brian Durham) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:35:07 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Naked woman decrapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32193CC8.415C@metronet.com> > http://www.grotesque.com You mean, like, no decrapitation? From alano at teleport.com Mon Aug 19 23:41:52 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:41:52 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960820035848.00b201dc@mail.teleport.com> At 07:00 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >That was intense... Just goes to show you what some people will do to get a head... ]:> --- |"Computers are Voodoo -- You just have to know where to stick the pins."| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From daemon at anon.penet.fi Tue Aug 20 00:02:50 1996 From: daemon at anon.penet.fi (daemon at anon.penet.fi) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:02:50 +0800 Subject: Anonymous password assignment failure (no password) Message-ID: <9608200446.AA25374@anon.penet.fi> You have requested the assignment of a new password However, your message text didn't contain any password. Remember that passwords should only contain letters and numbers. From npoznick at Harding.edu Tue Aug 20 00:18:04 1996 From: npoznick at Harding.edu (nathan poznick) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:18:04 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > There seems to be some confusion about the facts of the case, i.e., whether > the pictures really came from a case that was solved. I assume that that > will all be cleared up, but I'm not laughing anymore. > > I can imagine some kid gleefully accepting such pics to put up on a > grotesque page as an anti-censorship demonstration -- and then finding out > that he had the only evidence to an unsolved crime. i've visited Dan's Gallery of the Grotesk several times over the last few months, and i can tell you, that Dan takes these pictures and the history behin them quite seriously... if you read all the pages, and all his thoughts, you can tell that he's not just some kid that snatched up some gross pictures for the heck of it... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Nathan Poznick ^ ^ ^ ^ http://www.harding.edu/~npoznick ^ ^ ^ ^ "640k should be enough for anybody." ^ ^ ^ ^ --Bill Gates, 1981-- ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Aug 20 00:32:36 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:32:36 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Naked woman decrapitates man on Internet!!! Message-ID: <199608200525.WAA07739@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Sick, stuff. Yet everyone has to sneek a peek, just like a car crash. Hey, I did. I made the whole trip through the lurid pages. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From zachb at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 00:42:08 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:42:08 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <199608200120.VAA05671@envirolink.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Daniel Miskell wrote: > So, how do you UNDO the encryptation? Gee, no wonder it's uncrackable. > > Daniel. > Umm...you missed the joke. Take a closer look at the word Noitutitsbus. :) From proff at suburbia.net Tue Aug 20 00:49:19 1996 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:49:19 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) Message-ID: <199608200513.PAA23414@suburbia.net> Forwarded message: >From notes at igc.org Tue Aug 20 15:07:25 1996 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: Moderator of conference "justice.polabuse" From: Bob Witanek Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs To: Recipients of pol-abuse Message-ID: X-Gateway: conf2mail at igc.apc.org Errors-To: owner-pol-abuse at igc.apc.org Precedence: bulk Lines: 364 From: Bob Witanek Posted mnovick at laedu.lalc.k12.ca.us Sun Aug 18 22:23:45 1996 This is an astonishing mainstream media documentation of the role of the U.S. state in the guns for drugs trade and its social devastation results in the U.S. Although the piece focuses on U.S. involvement on the guns end in Central America, this was a clear two-birds with one stone counter-insurgency strategy at this end, too. Given the continuing effect of crack (and its hypocritical super-criminalization by the government), genocide is probably too mild a word for this. '80s effort to assist guerrillas left legacy of drugs, gangs in black L.A. By Gary Webb Mercury News Staff Writer For the better part of a decade, a Bay Area drug ring sold tons of cocaine to the Crips and Bloods street gangs of Los Angeles and funneled millions in drug profits to a Latin American guerrilla army run by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, a Mercury News investigation has found. This drug network opened the first pipeline between Colombia's cocaine cartels and the black neighborhoods of Los Angeles, a city now known as the ``crack'' capital of the world. The cocaine that flooded in helped spark a crack explosion in urban America -- and provided the cash and connections needed for L.A.'s gangs to buy automatic weapons. It is one of the most bizarre alliances in modern history: the union of a U.S.-backed army attempting to overthrow a revolutionary socialist government and the Uzi-toting ``gangstas'' of Compton and South-Central Los Angeles. The army's financiers -- who met with CIA agents both before and during the time they were selling the drugs in L.A. -- delivered cut-rate cocaine to the gangs through a young South-Central crack dealer named Ricky Donnell Ross. Unaware of his suppliers' military and political connections, ``Freeway Rick"'' -- a dope dealer of mythic proportions in the L.A. drug world -- turned the cocaine powder into crack and wholesaled it to gangs across the country. The cash Ross paid for the cocaine, court records show, was then used to buy weapons and equipment for a guerrilla army named the Fuerza Democratica Nicaraguense (Nicaraguan Democratic Force) or FDN, the largest of several anti-communist groups commonly called the Contras. While the FDN's war is barely a memory today, black America is still dealing with its poisonous side effects. Urban neighborhoods are grappling with legions of homeless crack addicts. Thousands of young black men are serving long prison sentences for selling cocaine -- a drug that was virtually unobtainable in black neighborhoods before members of the CIA's army brought it into South-Central in the 1980s at bargain-basement prices. And the L.A. gangs, which used their enormous cocaine profits to arm themselves and spread crack across the country, are still thriving, turning entire blocks of major cities into occasional war zones. ``There is a saying that the ends justify the means,'' former FDN leader and drug dealer Oscar Danilo Blandon Reyes testified during a recent cocaine trafficking trial in San Diego. ``And that's what Mr. Bermudez (the CIA agent who commanded the FDN) told us in Honduras, OK? So we started raising money for the Contra revolution.'' Recently declassified reports, federal court testimony, undercover tapes, court records here and abroad and hundreds of hours of interviews over the past 12 months leave no doubt that Blandon was no ordinary drug dealer. Shortly before Blandon -- who had been the drug ring's Southern California distributor -- took the stand in San Diego as a witness for the U.S. Department of Justice, federal prosecutors obtained a court order preventing defense lawyers from delving into his ties to the CIA. Blandon, one of the FDN's founders in California, ``will admit that he was a large-scale dealer in cocaine, and there is no additional benefit to any defendant to inquire as to the Central Intelligence Agency,'' Assistant U.S. Attorney L.J. O'Neale argued in his motion shortly before Ross' trial on cocaine trafficking charges in March. The most Blandon would say in court about who called the shots when he sold cocaine for the FDN was that ``we received orders from the -- from other people.'' The 5,000-man FDN, records show, was created in mid-1981 when the CIA combined several existing groups of anti-communist exiles into a unified force it hoped would topple the new socialist government of Nicaragua. >From 1982 to 1988, the FDN -- run by both American and Nicaraguan CIA agents -- waged a losing war against Nicaragua's Sandinista government, the Cuban-supported socialists who'd overthrown U.S.-backed dictator Anastasio Somoza in 1979. Blandon, who began working for the FDN's drug operation in late 1981, testified that the drug ring sold almost a ton of cocaine in the United States that year -- $54 million worth at prevailing wholesale prices. It was not clear how much of the money found its way back to the CIA's army, but Blandon testified that ``whatever we were running in L.A., the profit was going for the Contra revolution.'' At the time of that testimony, Blandon was a full-time informant for the Drug Enforcement Administration, a job the U.S. Department of Justice got him after releasing him from prison in 1994. Though Blandon admitted to crimes that have sent others away for life, the Justice Department turned him loose on unsupervised probation after only 28 months behind bars and has paid him more than $166,000 since, court records show. ``He has been extraordinarily helpful,'' federal prosecutor O'Neale told Blandon's judge in a plea for the trafficker's release in 1994. Though O'Neale once described Blandon to a grand jury as ``the biggest Nicaraguan cocaine dealer in the United States,'' the prosecutor would not discuss him with the Mercury News. A known dealer since '74 has stayed out of U.S. jails Blandon's boss in the FDN's cocaine operation, Juan Norwin Meneses Cantarero, has never spent a day in a U.S. prison, even though the federal government has been aware of his cocaine dealings since at least 1974, records show. Meneses -- who ran the drug ring from his homes in the Bay Area -- is listed in the DEA's computers as a major international drug smuggler and was implicated in 45 separate federal investigations. Yet he and his cocaine-dealing relatives lived quite openly in the Bay Area for years, buying homes in Pacifica and Burlingame, along with bars, restaurants, car lots and factories in San Francisco, Hayward and Oakland. ``I even drove my own cars, registered in my name,'' Meneses said during a recent interview in Nicaragua. Meneses' organization was ``the target of unsuccessful investigative attempts for many years,'' prosecutor O'Neale acknowledged in a 1994 affidavit. But records and interviews revealed that a number of those probes were stymied not by the elusive Meneses but by agencies of the U.S. government. Agents from four organizations -- the DEA, U.S. Customs, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department and the California Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement -- have complained that investigations were hampered by the CIA or unnamed ``national security'' interests. 1988 investigation hit a wall of secrecy One 1988 investigation by a U.S. Senate subcommittee ran into a wall of official secrecy at the Justice Department. In that case, congressional records show, Senate investigators were trying to determine why the U.S. attorney in San Francisco, Joseph Russoniello, had given $36,000 back to a Nicaraguan cocaine dealer arrested by the FBI. The money was returned, court records show, after two Contra leaders sent letters to the court swearing that the drug dealer had been given the cash to buy weapons for guerrillas. Russoniello said it was cheaper to give the money back than to disprove that claim. ``The Justice Department flipped out to prevent us from getting access to people, records -- finding anything out about it,'' recalled Jack Blum, former chief counsel to the Senate subcommittee that investigated allegations of Contra cocaine trafficking. ``It was one of the most frustrating exercises that I can ever recall.'' It wasn't until 1989, a few months after the Contra-Sandinista war ended and five years after Meneses moved from the Peninsula to a ranch in Costa Rica, that the U.S. government took action against him -- sort of. Federal prosecutors in San Francisco charged Meneses with conspiracy to distribute one kilo of cocaine in 1984, a year in which he was working publicly with the FDN. In S.F. photo, Meneses seen with CIA operative Meneses' work was so public, in fact, that he posed for a picture in June 1984 in a kitchen of a San Francisco home with the FDN's political boss, Adolfo Calero, a longtime CIA operative who became the public face of the Contras in the United States. According to the indictment, Meneses was in the midst of his alleged cocaine conspiracy at the time the picture was taken. But the indictment was quickly locked away in the vaults of the San Francisco federal courthouse, where it remains today -- inexplicably secret for more than seven years. Meneses was never arrested. Reporters found a copy of the secret indictment in Nicaragua, along with a federal arrest warrant issued Feb. 8, 1989. Records show the no-bail warrant was never entered into the national law enforcement database called NCIC, which police use to track down fugitives. The former federal prosecutor who indicted him, Eric Swenson, declined to be interviewed. After Nicaraguan police arrested Meneses on cocaine charges in Managua in 1991, his judge expressed astonishment that the infamous smuggler went unmolested by American drug agents during his years in the United States. ``How do you explain the fact that Norwin Meneses, implicated since 1974 in the trafficking of drugs . . . has not been detained in the United States, a country in which he has lived, entered and departed many times since 1974?'' Judge Martha Quezada asked during a pretrial hearing. ``Well, that question needs to be asked to the authorities of the United States,'' replied Roger Mayorga, then chief of Nicaragua's anti-drug agency. U.S. officials amazed Meneses remained free His seeming invulnerability amazed American authorities as well. A Customs agent who investigated Meneses in 1980 before transferring elsewhere said he was reassigned to San Francisco seven years later ``and I was sitting in some meetings and here's Meneses' name again. And I can remember thinking, `Holy cow, is this guy still around?' '' Blandon led an equally charmed life. For at least five years he brokered massive amounts of cocaine to the black gangs of Los Angeles without being arrested. But his luck changed overnight. On Oct. 27, 1986, agents from the FBI, the IRS, local police and the Los Angeles County sheriff fanned out across Southern California and raided more than a dozen locations connected to Blandon's cocaine operation. Blandon and his wife, along with numerous Nicaraguan associates, were arrested on drug and weapons charges. The search warrant affidavit reveals that local drug agents knew plenty about Blandon's involvement with cocaine and the CIA's army nearly 10 years ago. ``Danilo Blandon is in charge of a sophisticated cocaine smuggling and distribution organization operating in Southern California,'' L.A. County sheriff's Sgt. Tom Gordon said in the 1986 affidavit. ``The monies gained from the sales of cocaine are transported to Florida and laundered through Orlando Murillo, who is a high-ranking officer of a chain of banks in Florida named Government Securities Corporation. From this bank the monies are filtered to the Contra rebels to buy arms in the war in Nicaragua.'' Corporate records show that Murillo -- a Nicaraguan banker and relative of Blandon's wife -- was a vice-president of Government Securities Corporation in Coral Gables, a large brokerage firm that collapsed in 1987 amid allegations of fraud. Murillo did not respond to an interview request. Despite their intimate knowledge of Blandon's operations, the police raids were a spectacular failure. Every location had been cleaned of anything remotely incriminating. No one was ever prosecuted. Ron Spear, a spokesman for Los Angeles County Sheriff Sherman Block, said Blandon somehow knew that he was under police surveillance. Others thought so, too. ``The cops always believed that investigation had been compromised by the CIA,'' Los Angeles federal public defender Barbara O'Connor said in a recent interview. O'Connor knew of the raids because she later defended the raids' leader, Sgt. Gordon, against federal charges of police corruption. Gordon, convicted of tax evasion, declined to be interviewed. Lawyer suggests aid was at root of problem FBI records show that soon after the raids, Blandon's defense attorney, Bradley Brunon, called the sheriff's department to suggest that his client's troubles stemmed from a most unlikely source: a recent congressional vote authorizing $100 million in military aid to the CIA's Contra army. According to a December 1986 FBI Teletype, Brunon told the officers that the ``CIA winked at this sort of thing. . . . (Brunon) indicated that now that U.S. Congress had voted funds for the Nicaraguan Contra movement, U.S. government now appears to be turning against organizations like this.'' That FBI report, part of the files of former Iran-Contra Special Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh, was made public only last year, when it was released by the National Archives at the Mercury News' request. Blandon has also implied that his cocaine sales were, for a time, CIA-approved. He told a San Francisco federal grand jury in 1994 that once the FDN began receiving American taxpayer dollars, the CIA no longer needed his kind of help. ``When Mr. Reagan get in the power, we start receiving a lot of money,'' Blandon testified. ``And the people that was in charge, it was the CIA, so they didn't want to raise any (drug) money because they have, they had the money that they wanted.'' ``From the government?'' asked Assistant U.S. Attorney David Hall. ``Yes, for the Contra revolution,'' Blandon said. ``So we started -- you know, the ambitious person -- we started doing business by ourselves.'' Asked about that, prosecutor Hall said, ``I don't know what to tell you. The CIA won't tell me anything.'' None of the government agencies known to have been involved with Meneses and Blandon over the years would provide the Mercury News with any information about them. A Freedom of Information Act request filed with the CIA was denied on national security grounds. FOIA requests filed with the DEA were denied on privacy grounds. Requests filed months ago with the FBI, the State Department and the Immigration and Naturalization Service have produced nothing so far. None of the DEA officials known to have worked with the two men would talk to a reporter. Questions submitted to the DEA's public affairs office in Washington were never answered, despite repeated requests. Blandon's lawyer, Brunon, said in an interview that his client never told him directly that he was selling cocaine for the CIA, but the prominent Los Angeles defense attorney drew his own conclusions from the ``atmosphere of CIA and clandestine activities'' that surrounded Blandon and his Nicaraguan friends. ``Was he involved with the CIA? Probably. Was he involved with drugs? Most definitely,'' Brunon said. ``Were those two things involved with each other? They've never said that, obviously. They've never admitted that. But I don't know where these guys get these big aircraft . . .'' That very topic arose during the sensational 1992 cocaine trafficking trial of Meneses after Meneses was arrested in Nicaragua in connection with a staggering 750-kilo shipment of cocaine. His chief accuser was his friend Enrique Miranda, a relative and former Nicaraguan military intelligence officer who had been Meneses' emissary to the cocaine cartel of Bogota, Colombia. Miranda pleaded guilty to drug charges and agreed to cooperate in exchange for a seven-year sentence. In a long, handwritten statement he read to Meneses' jury, Miranda revealed the deepest secrets of the Meneses drug ring, earning his old boss a 30-year prison sentence in the process. ``He (Norwin) and his brother Luis Enrique had financed the Contra revolution with the benefits of the cocaine they sold,'' Miranda wrote. ``This operation, as Norwin told me, was executed with the collaboration of high-ranking Salvadoran military personnel. They met with officials of the Salvadoran air force, who flew (planes) to Colombia and then left for the U.S., bound for an Air Force base in Texas, as he told me.'' Meneses -- who has close personal and business ties to a Salvadoran air force commander and former CIA agent named Marcos Aguado -- declined to discuss Miranda's statements during an interview at a prison outside Managua in January. He is scheduled to be paroled this summer, after nearly five years in custody. U.S. General Accounting Office records confirm that El Salvador's air force was supplying the CIA's Nicaraguan guerrillas with aircraft and flight support services throughout the mid-1980s. Miranda did not name the Air Force base in Texas where the FDN's cocaine was purportedly flown. The same day the Mercury News requested official permission to interview Miranda, he disappeared. While out on a routine weekend furlough, Miranda failed to return to the Nicaraguan jail where he'd been living since 1992. Though his jailers, who described him as a model prisoner, claimed Miranda had escaped, they didn't call the police until a Mercury News correspondent showed up and discovered he was gone. He has not been seen in nearly a year. Additional reporting for this series in Nicaragua and Costa Rica was done by Managua journalist Georg Hodel. Research assistance at the Nicaraguan Supreme Court in Managua was done by journalist Leonore Delgado. This material is copyrighted and may not be republished without permission of the originating newspaper or wire service. NewsHound is a service of the San Jose Mercury News. For more information call 1-888-344-6863. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff at suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Aug 20 00:54:51 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:54:51 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! Message-ID: <199608200525.WAA07745@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 19 Aug 96, 20:37, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 2:00 AM 8/20/96, Lucky Green wrote: > >On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Mark O. Aldrich wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > >> > >> http://www.grotesque.com/ > >That was intense... > > But not as intense as it could be with Internet video! > > --Tim May Sick, stuff. Yet everyone has to sneek a peek, just like a car crash. Hey, I did. I made the whole trip through the lurid pages. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 20 01:11:49 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:11:49 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 Message-ID: <199608200551.WAA05510@mail.pacifier.com> At 01:34 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote: >The alternative to doing something reasonable like this is >probably to see mass migration from "banned newsgroups" to >off-topic groups, like Lolita pictures in rec.pets.cats, when the >inevitable crackdown comes. Or, perhaps, rec.humbert.humbert.humbert.humbert.humbert.humbert B^) (2x3=6) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From frantz at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 01:33:31 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:33:31 +0800 Subject: "Utilization Review" Message-ID: <199608200618.XAA18824@netcom8.netcom.com> At 5:58 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Bill Frantz wrote: >> Perhaps, within our current social order, medical savings plans >> are the best option on the table. > >What alternative social orders can you envision that would handle this >problem elegantly? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Well, under Cryptoanarchy the whole problem disappears. Your medical records are handled as per your contract with your doctor. There are no 3rd party payers who have a stake. With no taxes, the deduction for medical savings plans disappears and with it the principle reason for them. (People would still need to save for medical costs.) >Medical savings plans do not work for anyone but the extremely rich and >healthy, because few normal people can self-insure to cover the risk. The risk of catastrophic illness is indeed significant, but statistically rare. If we assume people will insure for it, and insurance companies still have access to the records of the care they pay for, then we are still better off than we are today with all care being paid by insurance companies. In this scenario, routine medical care is being paid by the patient, and the records can be private between the patient and the doctor. This kind of system would prevent the general availability of information such as whether a patient had a vasectomy. Note that in the general case, people are healthy in their youth, and can build up savings for when health problems develop with age. TANSTAAFL. On the average, everyone has to pay the cost of their medical care. >There's also the little matter of letting your doctor know your medical >history. I have no problem letting my doctor know my medical history protected by doctor-patient confidentiality. It's the insurance company/human resources department/government access I worry about. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From qut at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 01:33:33 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Roger Healy OBC) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:33:33 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 In-Reply-To: <199608200001.RAA02120@netcom8.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608200621.XAA18741@netcom.netcom.com> ON > > At 1:34 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote: > >Permit me to go off in an orthogonal direction here and say that > >I think that we should do away with the concept of a pre-ordained > >newsgroups in Usenet entirely, in favor of an IRC-like dynamic > >creation of message pools. > > Moderated newsgroups gain reputation from their moderation policies and > probably should not be included in this scheme. Moderated newsgroups have very few posts because hardly anyone reads them. I second the above propsed IRC-like scheme if it only would apply to moderated groups, because of IRC's bad reputation of moderation. From tob at world.std.com Tue Aug 20 01:35:48 1996 From: tob at world.std.com (Tom Breton) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:35:48 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 Message-ID: <199608200631.AA05778@world.std.com> frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) writes: > At 1:34 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote: > > > Moderated newsgroups gain reputation from their moderation policies and > probably should not be included in this scheme. Actually, this was hashed out a long time ago on the late, lamented news.future. I'm pleased to see ideas I fought for coming to life again. Moderation could easily fit in. A moderation-stamp would be just one more field for the search to work with. Someone (I think it was me but it's been years since all this was said!) speculated that this would actually be an improvement in several ways: * If rejected messages were indicated by simply missing a signature of approval, voluntary not searched for by individual readers, it would be harder to claim moderator censorship. Or to accomplish it, for that matter. * Multiple independent moderators could work on the same newsgroup. * If the stamp of approval were dissociated from the message proper, messages could propagate without waiting for the moderator's receive-email-and-post cycle. The moderator's "OK" would catch up later, for those readers that wait for it. Imminent resurrection of Usenet predicted. Film-teaser at 5. Tom From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 20 01:56:46 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:56:46 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Naked woman decrapitates man on Internet!!! Message-ID: At 10:30 PM 8/19/96, Ross Wright wrote: >Sick, stuff. Yet everyone has to sneek a peek, just like a car >crash. Hey, I did. I made the whole trip through the lurid pages. > Seven billion (thousand million for you Brits) people in the world. More than 10,000 deaths every hour, or about 5 deaths per second. What's so sick about one measly death? Just another crime, like thousands of others every day. They just got caught. At least he's immortalized on the Net. --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jk at stallion.ee Tue Aug 20 02:11:14 1996 From: jk at stallion.ee (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?=) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:11:14 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <4vb5ud$skn@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: 19 Aug 1996, Ian Goldberg wrote: > > No, we will only be supplying ELF. Since linux is not officially > >supported, we really don't have the resources to do multiple versions. > > > Not to mention that plugins are virtually impossible with a.out... You really think someone will write plug-ins for Unix versions of Netscape? I am not so sure. J�ri Kaljundi AS Stallion jk at stallion.ee From mccoy at communities.com Tue Aug 20 02:27:29 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:27:29 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list (fwd) Message-ID: Declan wrote: [...] > Back to Indonesia -- my column should have said the Indonesian military is > *trying* to ban the mailing list from the country. They haven't succeeded > yet. Time will tell. > > I have more information on Indonesia at http://www2.eff.org/~declan/global/ >-- > right now, use the www2 address since not all directories seem to be > updating on the mirror servers properly right now. For those who are curious, Indonesia is an interesting test case among the Pacific Rim counties because the current iron-fisted ruler is beginning to get a bit long in the tooth and no one has any idea what it going to happen when he finally croaks. Indonesia has had almost no political opposition since a rather violent anti-Communist crackdown/coup in the 60s. All media access was rigorously controlled and the possibilities the Internet and similar computer networking technologies offer (ObCryptoAnarchy ref...) are just now becoming apparent to those who are in charge. How this plays out will have interesting reprecussions in other such countries where politicial discourse is a new phenomenon and where the Internet is just now being seen as a threat to the current order. jim, former exchange student to Indonesia who hopes the transition is less bloddy than Indonesia's last change of government... From DMiskell at envirolink.org Tue Aug 20 02:34:01 1996 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:34:01 +0800 Subject: No Subject - Lesson in cracking (cryptoanalysis 001) Message-ID: <199608200722.DAA20149@envirolink.org> Wait wait wait! I have a bridge I want to sell him first. Course, I shouldn't talk. I bought the planet yesterday. You all owe me $5k/hour rent. Daniel. From DMiskell at envirolink.org Tue Aug 20 02:49:15 1996 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:49:15 +0800 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <199608200720.DAA20113@envirolink.org> I feel like a fool now. I think I'll go slam some Jello laced with Dew and quack like a dolphin now. Daniel. From cabeen at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 03:39:57 1996 From: cabeen at netcom.com (Ted Cabeen) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:39:57 +0800 Subject: Netscape 3.0 and encryption choices Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960820080407.0035a35c@netcom16.netcom.com> In Netscape 3.0, the program allows the user to specify which encryption standards to allow connections with. It allows encryption with 128-bit RC4, 128-bit RC2, and 156-bit(I think)3DES. Of these three, which would be the most secure method? It is possible to restrict all secure connects to be of 3DES only for example. What would be the most secure way to go, DES or RC4? this is the newly released US-Only downloadable copy of Netscape 3.0 -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Ted Cabeen http://shadowland.rh.uchicago.edu cabeen at netcom.com Check Website or finger for PGP Public Key secabeen at midway.uchicago.edu "I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon cococabeen at aol.com "Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot 73126.626 at compuserve.com From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 20 04:19:08 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:19:08 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608200513.PAA23414@suburbia.net> Message-ID: I've heard that story so many times from so many less-than-worthless sources (primarily the wacky-left "Christic Institute" and KPFK Radio) that I find it difficult to take it seriously. But I do. The US, Cuban, and "entrepreneurial" actors in Central America in the 80's were so fucked up that just about anything is possible. Although... I thought it was pretty funny that today's story matter-of- factly identified Calero as a CIA agent. Yeah, and registering Republican makes me Barbara Bush. At least he's not quiting Agee. -rich From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 20 04:21:17 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:21:17 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 In-Reply-To: <199608200631.AA05778@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Tom Breton wrote: > * If rejected messages were indicated by simply missing a signature of > approval, voluntary not searched for by individual readers, it would be > harder to claim moderator censorship. Or to accomplish it, for that > matter. > > * Multiple independent moderators could work on the same newsgroup. > > * If the stamp of approval were dissociated from the message proper, > messages could propagate without waiting for the moderator's > receive-email-and-post cycle. The moderator's "OK" would catch up later, > for those readers that wait for it. Innaresting. Sort of a reverse NoCeM. I like it, but of course you'd have to distribute the clients by magic. Sounds good for discussion groups, especially soc.culture.* and soc.religion.*, but there's still a role for strictly moderated *.announce groups. -rich From gary at systemics.com Tue Aug 20 06:51:49 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:51:49 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Naked woman decrapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32199D8B.500F9F30@systemics.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > At 10:30 PM 8/19/96, Ross Wright wrote: > >Sick, stuff. Yet everyone has to sneek a peek, just like a car > >crash. Hey, I did. I made the whole trip through the lurid pages. > > > > Seven billion (thousand million for you Brits) people in the world. More > than 10,000 deaths every hour, or about 5 deaths per second. Oh please - show me a Brit who can remember a billion as a million million, and I'll show you a Brit who remembers pounds, shillings and pence. Gary (PS - I think I've figured out how to change "Trash" to "Rubbish" with Netscape, just in case anyone's interested). -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Aug 20 07:07:34 1996 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:07:34 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960820101053.0069d994@mail.io.com> At 12:03 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote: >On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > >> At 3:29 AM 8/19/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >> >I suspect they are trying to get a judgement against "John Doe", in the >> >hopes of tracking him down later. >> > >> >Actually, if I had a sizeable judgement against such a John Doe, I could >> >probably find a private detective who would find the dude for a >> >contingent fee. Wow, a whole new class of factoring (commerce definition) >> >opens up. Get me a lawyer.... Sure, there are collection people who do this regularly; it's also possible to sell judgements for a fraction of their face value. >> Lawyers out there can and should correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't >> believe either the criminal or civil justice system has the concept of a >> "John Doe" trial! The ability to have the advice of an attorney, to >> confront one's accusers, cross-examine witnesses, and mount a defense, and >> all that constitutional stuff. Rather hard to do if the trial is in the >> past tense. >> >> Can you cite an example of such a "John Doe" trial in the U.S.? > >Not exactly, but judgements against John Doe's or even "$956,334.34" are >common. Typically they are default judgements where a property seizure is >involved. > >"The United States of America v. $534,444.00" and "The United States of >AMerica v. One Red Porsche" is a common theme. It is possible to name unknown defendants in a suit - the tradition is to name them as, literally, "John Doe" or "John Does 1-6, unknown Washington County Sheriff's Deputies". The idea is that at some point prior to trial you'll learn the names of the defendants and then ask the court for permission to amend your complaint to add the newly found names. (e.g., Oregon Rule of Civil Procedure 20(H): "Fictitious Parties. When a party is ignorant of the name of an opposing party and so alleges in a pleading, the opposing party may be designated by any name, and when such party's true name is discovered, the process and all pleadings and proceedings in the action may be amended by substituting the true name.") But naming someone in a suit is not sufficient to give them notice that they've been sued, so that they know to file an answer and otherwise defend themselves. At least in Oregon (state & Fed courts, since Fed courts borrow the state's rules for service of process, Fed Rul Civ Pro 4(e)(1)), service by publication (as mentioned in another message) is only allowed where the plaintiff files an affidavit that they have tried every other appropriate means of service and they have been unsuccessful, or that they have reason to know it will be unsuccessful. ORCP 7(D)(7). Service by publication is relatively rare. So Tim's correct (at least as far as I know, and I sure don't know everything) when he says that John Doe *trials* are essentially unknown - because if defendant(s) don't appear for trial but have been served, the plaintiff can get a default judgement against them - which makes a trial unnecessary, at least for those defendants. It's also possible (sometimes) for a defendant to overturn a default judgement and ask for a real trial, if they can show that there was a good reason why they didn't respond initially. Bad (or unattempted) service of process is usually a good reason. The John Doe lawsuits are more likely to falter at the service-of-process stage; before you get to ask for a default judgment, you've got to prove that the defendant was served. And if you don't even know their name, it's tough to serve them with the summons & complaint. No service, no judgement. The connection between the service-of-process problem and the in rem cases Black Unicorn mentioned (e.g., "United States v. $405,089.23") is that the owner of the property is supposedly put on notice by the seizure or attachment of the property itself. A court can exercise jurisdiction over *stuff* (e.g., property) and enter a judgement against the stuff even if it hasn't gained jurisdiction (via service of process) over the person who owns the stuff. In the most common seizures, the stuff is seized from one or more people; those people are also given notice of the seizure and their right to contest it. (which is not to say that I'm a fan of forfeiture - I'm not - but the cases I've seen/worked on haven't suggested that lack of notice is a problem. Claimants/owners/possessors don't always understand the notice they're given at seizure, and they don't always bother to act within the awfully short deadlines (10-15 days, in some cases) required to file a claim. But people do get (arguably inadequate) notice.) To some extent, in rem jurisdiction is practically necessary - otherwise it'd be possible to have property in a wrong place, or creating unwanted/harmful effects, which could not be legally moved or changed without service of process on the owner - who may be dead or travelling or uninterested or just hard to find. If cryptoanarchy becomes more prevalent, and it becomes more difficult to trace ownership and control of interesting stuff (e.g., physical or intellectual property, and/or "bots" of one flavor or another), look for more in rem actions, not fewer. (I can't think of an example of a John Doe criminal proceeding, except that I believe grand juries can hear testimony and investigate crimes where a target has not yet been identified. But that's a very early stage of criminal proceedings where the defendant doesn't have many rights even if they are identified; so the lack of notice isn't much of an injury.) -- Greg Broiles |"Post-rotational nystagmus was the subject of gbroiles at netbox.com |an in-court demonstration by the People http://www.io.com/~gbroiles |wherein Sgt Page was spun around by Sgt |Studdard." People v. Quinn 580 NYS2d 818,825. From gem at rellim.com Tue Aug 20 07:22:48 1996 From: gem at rellim.com (Gary E. Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:22:48 +0800 Subject: 2nd request! In-Reply-To: <199608131847.LAA01140@mail.compcurr.com> Message-ID: Yo Ariel! On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 ariel at compcurr.com wrote: > ******************************************************* > Inside Currents > Vol 1, No. 5 > August 13, 1996 > > Inside Currents Newsletter > An electronic update from Computer Currents Interactive > http://www.currents.net > > ******************************************************* > CONTENTS: > > 1. Tech Support, on and off line: This week's cover story in Computer > Currents Magazine > http://www.currents.net/covr > > 2. Gigglebytes turns 10! > http://www.currents.net/gigg > > 3. Check out our online Shopping Mall > http://www.currents.net/mall > > 4. Computer Catalogs Online > http://www.currents.net/catalogs > > 5. Coming soon, from Computer Currents Interactive > > 6. Computer Currents Interactive membership information > http://www.currents.net/members > > ***************************************************** > 1. Tech Support, on and off line: > Do you need help navigating the sea of available tech support resources? > Read our exclusive Computer Currents cover story for information about > third > party software and hardware support companies who sell phone support, plus > fee and free online help you can find on the internet. Also, new in our > Columns section: "Corporate PC" looks at Post-It Software Notes; "Gizmos" > explores the chaotic world of videoconferencing; Net Surfer tries Offline > Web Browsing. > > http://www.currents.net/covr > > > 2. Gigglebytes turns 10! > This month Computer Currents magazine celebrates the 10th anniversary of > Gigglebytes. > Join author Lincoln Spector as he revisits his favorite articles over the > past > decade. Gigglebytes gives readers a humorous view on computer industry > events, > trends and people. > > http://www.currents.net/gigg > > 3. Check out our online Shopping Mall > Our new shopping mall area is still under construction, but we're already > bringing together an exciting range of regionally based goods and > services. > Of special note: Our Net Quote service allows you to solicit price bids on > computer equipment--you can let the stores come to you. > > http://www.currents.net/mall > > > 4. Computer Catalogs Online > If you're thinking of buying a new computer, check out the new section > we've > got up and running! Now our users can research computer stores in > their area (or mail order), and browse available hardware listings. You > can > find local contact numbers with just the click of a mouse! > > http://www.currents.net/catalogs > > 5. Coming soon, from Computer Currents Interactive > Discount coupons you can print out and use with local retailers; > more ways to order online through CCI; our enhanced "Computer Advisor" > section; > stimulating chat rooms and forums; contests and surveys; more FREE stuff. > > > 6. Computer Currents Interactive membership > CCI Membership is FREE and benefits abound! Create and edit your own > Gallery > page, > post your resume in our Talent Bank, receive special product discounts > from > CCI vendors, > participate in contests and surveys, and much more! If you're not already > a > member, join CCI today. > > http://www.currents.net/members > > ***************************************************** > How to subscribe to Inside Currents: > > To Subscribe: > 1. Join CCI at https://www.currents.net/members > 2. Check yes to "subscribe to Inside Currents" box. > > To Unsubscribe: > > 1. If you are NOT interested in receiving Inside Currents, cut and paste > this sentence and e-mail us at > caliban at compcurr.com. We'll remove your address from our list. Please be > sure to include your user name. > > 2. If you need further assistance, please send e-mail to > ariel at compcurr.com > > > ******************************************************* > Computer Currents Interactive http://www.currents.net > The full-service online resource for computer users! > ******************************************************* > > > Please remove me, and my associated companies (aplatform.com, inow.com, megamed.com, and rellim.com) from your SPAM list. Do NOT respond to this message in any way. Just go away! It is in violation of United States Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II to send an unsolicited email of any sort in the US. Check out the following URL for information on your new legal liability: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 2680 Bayshore Pkwy, #202 Mountain View, CA 94043-1009 gem at rellim.com Tel:+1(415)964-1186 Fax:+1(415)964-1176 BBS:+1(415)964-8821 From bdolan at use.usit.net Tue Aug 20 07:38:31 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:38:31 +0800 Subject: AZ DMV: Citizenship to Drive? (fwd) Message-ID: Your papers, please? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:04:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Witanek To: Recipients of pol-abuse Subject: AZ DMV: Citizenship to Drive? Posted: gdiazj at IMAP1.ASU.EDU Today the Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles began requiring proof of citizenship before issuing a drivers license or a state identification. This policy was established by HB 2154 which passed this last session (this one slipped passed me). I am helping organize people in Arizona to oppose this. Please send your information ASAP, we need you your help. VIVA LA RAZA George Diaz, Jr. gdiazj at imap1.asu.edu GDIAZJ at aol.com gdiaz at ci.phoenix.az.us From bdolan at use.usit.net Tue Aug 20 07:46:47 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:46:47 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Roger Morris has documented the base story nicely, first in an article intended for the Washington Post (but which wound up in Penthouse when the Post got cold feet) and now in a book, _Partners in Power_. bd On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > I've heard that story so many times from so many less-than-worthless sources > (primarily the wacky-left "Christic Institute" and KPFK Radio) that I find > it difficult to take it seriously. But I do. The US, Cuban, and > "entrepreneurial" actors in Central America in the 80's were so fucked up > that just about anything is possible. > > Although... I thought it was pretty funny that today's story matter-of- > factly identified Calero as a CIA agent. Yeah, and registering Republican > makes me Barbara Bush. > > At least he's not quiting Agee. > > -rich > > From gary at systemics.com Tue Aug 20 10:05:29 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:05:29 +0800 Subject: search engine improvement In-Reply-To: <199608191931.VAA02971@digicash.com> Message-ID: <3219B61D.7566F4CF@systemics.com> bryce at digicash.com wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Keywords: distributed ratings systems, search engines, spiders, > spiderspace, idea futures, The Shockwave Rider, John Brunner > > You know there is a trick that might greatly improve the > effectiveness of a search engine at almost no cost to the end > user. It is the well-known heuristic of "If Person A likes X > and Y, and Person B likes X, then Person B probably likes Y.", > combined with passive polling (which is getting information > about people's opinions just by watching their actions, instead > of by asking them). Have you seen the similarities engine (http://www.ari.net/se/ise/001/WC000001.html) that tries to find similarities between bands? I can't see a reason this wouldn't work for web pages. (Films would be noce too). Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From lharrison at csbh.mhv.net Tue Aug 20 10:55:31 1996 From: lharrison at csbh.mhv.net (Lynne L. Harrison) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:55:31 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960820135236.0ca75906@pop.mhv.net> At 07:08 PM 8/19/96 -0500, Igor Chudov wrote: > >I personally find the web page very well and artistically done, and >extremely funny. The guy who did it had a good taste. I personally found the page to be offensive and disagree highly with the person having "good taste". Following the premise that another posted to this list, there were ways of focusing on opposing the CDA without insulting women and/or minorities. I also agree that this act is going to backfire by giving the DOJ fodder when the case reaches the Supreme Court. IMO, it was patently obvious that it was a kid or kids that did it who gave no substantial thought on the consequences of his/their act. ************************************************************ Lynne L. Harrison, Esq. | "The key to life: Poughkeepsie, New York | - Get up; lharrison at mhv.net | - Survive; http://www.dueprocess.com | - Go to bed." ************************************************************ DISCLAIMER: I am not your attorney; you are not my client. Accordingly, the above is *NOT* legal advice. From David.K.Merriman at toad.com Tue Aug 20 11:22:57 1996 From: David.K.Merriman at toad.com (David.K.Merriman at toad.com) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 02:22:57 +0800 Subject: 128-bit IE3.0 adventures Message-ID: <199608201443.HAA12195@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com, webmaster at microsoft.com Date: Tue Aug 20 09:42:56 1996 I *finally* managed to get through to the 1-800 number that pops up when an attempted download of 128-bit MSIE 3.0 fails. They can only send out 128-bit version *2.0*, it seems. They referred me to the 1-800 Sales number, but of course, the sales droids weren't savvy enough to understand the problem, and tried to hand me off to a 206 area code number. At that point, I called off the drill - I'm not going to pay for a toll call to fix MS's screwup. "original" 800 number: 1-800-455-2959 Alternate 800 number: 1-800-426-9400 (autobot) - select 3, then 4, then 1 to get a Real Person. Anyone else upset about being denied might want to give them a call, too. Who knows, maybe if they get enough calls, they'll send someone to fix it. Dave - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhkYK8VrTvyYOzAZAQE0SgQApRBedkueeR2JTAJknfA7JGER/oNReVUK i8ImmNzjQDeionIkMbV2CuGOE/DwblVQ2yDgnUIBteNAFeiebwzdxaw9ysRKshRY 5AuvmXCyVsFJMNICFlZwNTRH+x4h7EPqA5BPxXJb+3b0sxWxqFcnU8QocJlFq+ap ksb0mwgbVYc= =L3IC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 20 11:31:21 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 02:31:21 +0800 Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list (fwd) Message-ID: <199608201454.HAA04784@dns2.noc.best.net> At 03:18 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > You know, Amnesty > has some outstanding policies regarding accuracy, objectivity, and > universality. Such as their policy that disappearances in Cuba are only mentioned in a vague and euphemistic way somewhere in the fine print of the middle of their Cuban reports, whereas similar disappearances are shouted from the rooftops when they happen in right wing South American dictatorships? --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Tue Aug 20 11:37:00 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 02:37:00 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9wJysD56w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Rich Graves writes: > > * If rejected messages were indicated by simply missing a signature of > > approval, voluntary not searched for by individual readers, it would be > > harder to claim moderator censorship. Or to accomplish it, for that > > matter. > > > > * Multiple independent moderators could work on the same newsgroup. > > > > * If the stamp of approval were dissociated from the message proper, > > messages could propagate without waiting for the moderator's > > receive-email-and-post cycle. The moderator's "OK" would catch up later, > > for those readers that wait for it. > > Innaresting. Sort of a reverse NoCeM. I like it, but of course you'd have to > distribute the clients by magic. Why 'reverse'? NoCeM's can be used to both 'hide' and 'highlight' articles. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From rp at rpini.com Tue Aug 20 12:00:54 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:00:54 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Naked woman decrapitates man on Internet!!! Message-ID: <9608201457.AA17813@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 20 16:55:54 1996 > Seven billion (thousand million for you Brits) people in the world. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Actually everybody uses billion as 10^12 (except Americans -> 10^9). ;-) America is getting more and more of an island... ;-) - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMhnR+xFhy5sz+bTpAQFAvggAwnWNgUTs0vpnwtK34AJjictQlLOZrhYl ANY8xoZ3cLKlcLZmLIo2m+N9QOrO9Bdp4Q1op1KTa9BUUDH0vl5rZak5C/L/+TKw EDp2N143ANWGrz5xd3BgFd/ly8VEPwVGQc85yjW6noRIl+5GUHaYKtNPGzr0V6oU d83igcL3/zU9GGwT6l1r7o/U/+cjy6Poui2IZYlVqy564kE2s71ztlVH687ZAHaF ZTRdkLZqi56AjI1g684zKik0qQ98SdQpHqz1CpzT6BuDS954bk3gip95Znu4PtYu vSEDTsTNf05jNqpjDHTLtPSSELgjNmA07Sb8PLlqJOWLcWVmYQP3Eg== =8mhr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Tue Aug 20 12:01:00 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:01:00 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Naked woman decrapitates man on Internet!!! Message-ID: <9607208405.AA840563232@smtplink.alis.ca> tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) wrote: >Seven billion (thousand million for you Brits) people in the world. More >than 10,000 deaths every hour, or about 5 deaths per second. >What's so sick about one measly death? Just another crime, like >thousands of others every day. They just got caught. At least he's >immortalized on the Net. Only 24 hours in each day. How do you spend your time? James Spray my name on a subway train Carve my name in a video game Out looking for the camera crew Sell my soul for a second on the six-o'clock news Gonna live 'til the bubble pops Hold my breath when the big one drops Immortality is what I'm buying But I'd rather be immortal by not dying. From sean at rosewood.his.ucsf.EDU Tue Aug 20 12:19:14 1996 From: sean at rosewood.his.ucsf.EDU (Sean McGrath) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:19:14 +0800 Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list (fwd) Message-ID: > ...llike the Berkeley administration's reading student email ... This was a paranoid fantasy that became a rumor and is on its was to an urban ledgend. The UC administration does not have the inclination, interest or resources to monitor email. Sean McGrath From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Tue Aug 20 12:24:55 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:24:55 +0800 Subject: search engine improvement In-Reply-To: <3219B61D.7566F4CF@systemics.com> Message-ID: The idea of sharing ratings on the web is literally as old as the web; it was part of the original idea (remember the original client was also an editor). --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From willday at rom.oit.gatech.edu Tue Aug 20 13:01:51 1996 From: willday at rom.oit.gatech.edu (Will Day) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 04:01:51 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <199608180942.EAA08054@snoopy.vetmed.auburn.edu> Message-ID: <199608201554.LAA04383@rom.oit.gatech.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A short time ago, at a computer terminal far, far away, Frank Stuart wrote: >however, I think those in a position to do so should start with the spin >control. Some suggestions: > > The fact that even the U.S. Justice Department is unable to adequately > protect it's own site from intruders underscores the need for widely- > available strong encryption. > > While this is certainly a major embarrassment for the Justice Department, > at least the mandatory "key escrow" program the Clinton administration is > insisting upon has not yet been implemented; no private citizens' data > appears to have been compromised this time. > > It's doubtful that a new law or government bureaucracy would have prevented > this from happening but it's entirely possible that tools such as strong > encryption could have. It's ironic that the U.S. Government is focusing on > the former while fighting use of the latter. I understand how it affects their claim for the security of escrowed keys, but I'm afraid I don't follow the other argument. How would the wide availability of strong encryption have helped prevent the breakin? How would encryption in general prevent breakins? I'd love to use this as an argument for strong encryption, but I don't see how it really applies. === Will Day * * * * * * * * * * * willday at rom.oit.gatech.edu HARRY BROWNE FOR PRESIDENT http://rom.oit.gatech.edu/~willday/ http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ OIT, Georgia Tech, Atlanta 30332-0715 * * * * * * * * * * * =-> Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not reflect OIT policy <-= -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMhnfhRDHlOdPw2ZdAQHIagQAktlsSEN4Ojt54JwZqWIujZ3BDc9n8e5D tokubxvVSdMyh9v/xVhVBfIOne1/+htiMdTWHYch0ZrJGqPR3rbicnuVm57Qq964 KMR9E3P9jNBgo+V9J3V01GcT3+VzxyOMTKqq64fLlRDnF1dg+UNWfCxNYc3bQnw+ HvYOMUv8mqs= =k72n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com Tue Aug 20 13:05:18 1996 From: cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com (C Matthew Curtin) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 04:05:18 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level Message-ID: <199608201529.LAA01469@goffette.research.megasoft.com> Hi, Recently, I've been looking into securing email at the MTA level, and would like to get your thoughts on implementation possibilities and related issues. The problems that I'm trying to solve are: 1. Host authentication 2. Data privacy In order for the widespread encryption to work, several things need to occur: 1. Phase-in of the new stuff 2. Backward compatibility (ability to continue to work in the clear) for a period of years 3. A single worldwide mechanism, defined by an RFC, and freely available, except, perhaps, in the case of commercial MTAs. (i.e., the use of RSA seems appropriate for host and session key management, and is free via RSAREF in the US, free outside of the US, but not free for commercial use. This seems acceptable to me.) Two types of approaches are possible: 1. Adding to the SMTP protocol itself, allowing for MTAs to identify crypto-capable peers, and then performing authentication and session encryption where possible. 2. Waiting for a cryptographic transport layer network protocol (such as what is being proposed in draft-ietf-tls-ssh-00), allowing SMTP to remain untouched, and only requiring MTAs to add support for the new network protocol. I like the second approach better, because it allows more problems to be solved with one move, and it would be easier to add crypto functionality to our common network utilities by simply making them aware of the new transport layer protocol. The first approach would require redefinitions of RFCs for each of the services, and lots of redundant work. I mentioned my interest in an SSH-capable MTA to Tatu Ylonen , and he as also expressed interest. The word from him on the status of the SSH Internet Draft is that a reference implementation should be available early next month. I'm considering using that reference implementation to add SSH capability to an MTA, perhaps sendmail. My questions are: 1. Which of the two approaches seems to make the most sense to you? 2. Is there another approach that could work better? 3. Is there interest in adding SSH functionality to sendmail in the near future (either by the draft spec, or once the RFC has been published)? Please feel free to pass this around, if you deem appropriate. I'm interested in lots of feedback before deciding if and how to go ahead with the project. Thanks. -- C Matthew Curtin MEGASOFT, LLC Director, Security Architecture I speak only for myself. Don't whine to anyone but me about anything I say. Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet cmcurtin at research.megasoft.com http://research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ From bdavis at thepoint.net Tue Aug 20 13:13:52 1996 From: bdavis at thepoint.net (Brian Davis) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 04:13:52 +0800 Subject: Billy boy's satellites [Was - Floating DataHaven] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > There are also two major competing systems, also not yet deployed. One is > the Microsoft-McCaw Cellular project, another is being done by an aerospace > company working with Qualcomm, or a subsidiary. Again, the Web should > produce the information for anyone interested. > > Which of the three (and maybe more) systems will actually get deployed, and > which will succeed in the market, is an interesting question. > > There's some obvious crypto/GAK/New World Order issues: many countries may > not care for a communications system which allows citizen-units or enemy > agents to make phone calls from the middle of the Kalahari desert or from > within the jungles of Burma. > Or the streets of New York or Washington. Not too long ago, in my former life as a federal prosecutor, I attended a Computer Crimes conference at Quantico (the FBI part, not the Marine part). One of the speakers discussed LEO satellites and satellite cellular phones. The "difficulty" in wiretapping those phones was of grave concern to most of those present.... EBD > (The Israelis, for example, are insisting that all handheld units have > Explosives Escrow, for detonation with appropriate official orders.) > > --Tim May > > Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! > We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." > > > > > From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Aug 20 13:29:01 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 04:29:01 +0800 Subject: BlackNet: Commercial Posts? Message-ID: <199608201616.JAA18450@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 19 Aug 96, 18:40, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 1:05 PM 8/19/96, Ross Wright wrote: > > > >My question to the list: > > > >Who benefits from all this publicity and brew-ha-ha? Who makes all > >the BlackNet money? Who really cares if it is a Data Haven or just > >a remailer? I'm just asking. > > Well, obviously I do. I receive $1.42 for every posting which > mentions BlackNet, 7% of gross sales for all commercial > transactions, and 12.5% plus a sliding finder's fee for all military > and intelligence secrets sold via BlackNet. > > But all true paranoiacs knew this. > > --Aldrich Ames > Hey, It's not funny. So this is freeware? I thought someone offered 3 mil for the program. Tim, you wrote this thing? So who owns it now? Can it be owned? Maybe I misunderstand. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Aug 20 13:41:39 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 04:41:39 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960820101053.0069d994@mail.io.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Greg Broiles wrote: > At 12:03 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote: > >On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > >> At 3:29 AM 8/19/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: > >> >I suspect they are trying to get a judgement against "John Doe", in the > >> >hopes of tracking him down later. > >> > > >> >Actually, if I had a sizeable judgement against such a John Doe, I could > >> >probably find a private detective who would find the dude for a > >> >contingent fee. Wow, a whole new class of factoring (commerce definition) > >> >opens up. Get me a lawyer.... > > Sure, there are collection people who do this regularly; it's also possible > to sell judgements for a fraction of their face value. > > >> Lawyers out there can and should correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't > >> believe either the criminal or civil justice system has the concept of a > >> "John Doe" trial! The ability to have the advice of an attorney, to > >> confront one's accusers, cross-examine witnesses, and mount a defense, and > >> all that constitutional stuff. Rather hard to do if the trial is in the > >> past tense. > >> > >> Can you cite an example of such a "John Doe" trial in the U.S.? > > > >Not exactly, but judgements against John Doe's or even "$956,334.34" are > >common. Typically they are default judgements where a property seizure is > >involved. > > > >"The United States of America v. $534,444.00" and "The United States of > >AMerica v. One Red Porsche" is a common theme. > > It is possible to name unknown defendants in a suit - the tradition is to > name them as, literally, "John Doe" or "John Does 1-6, unknown Washington > County Sheriff's Deputies". The idea is that at some point prior to trial > you'll learn the names of the defendants and then ask the court for > permission to amend your complaint to add the newly found names. I should have been clearer. Indeed an in rem jurisdiction case relies on the property seizure as notice. A default judgement against for example, $233,445.00 and several unnamed individuals" would clearly have problems along the service of process lines if ever contested. Practically speaking, however, the above are judgements against "John Doe"'s. Clearly this is not a "trial" in the strict sense of the word. > But naming someone in a suit is not sufficient to give them notice that > they've been sued, so that they know to file an answer and otherwise defend > themselves. At least in Oregon (state & Fed courts, since Fed courts borrow > the state's rules for service of process, Fed Rul Civ Pro 4(e)(1)), service > by publication (as mentioned in another message) is only allowed where the > plaintiff files an affidavit that they have tried every other appropriate > means of service and they have been unsuccessful, or that they have reason > to know it will be unsuccessful. ORCP 7(D)(7). Service by publication is > relatively rare. Agreed. > The connection between the service-of-process problem and the in rem cases > Black Unicorn mentioned (e.g., "United States v. $405,089.23") is that the > owner of the property is supposedly put on notice by the seizure or > attachment of the property itself. A court can exercise jurisdiction over > *stuff* (e.g., property) and enter a judgement against the stuff even if it > hasn't gained jurisdiction (via service of process) over the person who owns > the stuff. In the most common seizures, the stuff is seized from one or more > people; those people are also given notice of the seizure and their right to > contest it. Nicely put. > -- > Greg Broiles |"Post-rotational nystagmus was the subject of > gbroiles at netbox.com |an in-court demonstration by the People > http://www.io.com/~gbroiles |wherein Sgt Page was spun around by Sgt > |Studdard." People v. Quinn 580 NYS2d 818,825. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi Tue Aug 20 14:27:21 1996 From: morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi (Joel Morgan) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:27:21 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] other distributed searches Message-ID: <199608201726.UAA23102@keilin.helsinki.fi> Two distributed searches on the net are described in Science (9 August 1996 p. 743). One is a search for "Mersenne" prime numbers: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/justforfun/prime.htm The other is called SETI at home and apparently going to use idle time on people's computers (a screen saver) to search for patterns in data from Arecibo. The report says the project will be set up by Woody Sullivan of University of Washington, Seattle and will operate out of a server in Berkeley. (I wasn't able to locate any information about this on the web.) -- ===================================================================== Joel.Morgan at Helsinki.FI http://blues.helsinki.fi/~morgan "Over the mountains there are mountains." -- Chang-rae Lee ===================================================================== From stephen at iu.net Tue Aug 20 14:27:25 1996 From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:27:25 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats (getting off topic) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960820173846.007137e4@iu.net> At 05:32 PM 8/19/96 -0400, you wrote: >It sounds unfair, for sure. However, the whole thing is a fraud based >upon a myth. FICA witholding is NOT credited to an individual's account, >or even to Social Security benefits in general. By statutory law, all >such receipts go into the Treasury's general fund. > >So, they are NOT "social security contributions". Period. > Very true...what I am saying is that, as far as my reading goes, LEGAL aliens are going to be required to pay social security "taxes" while not having any "entitlement" in return. They pay income taxes and get certain things, like law and order, in return. They will be paying soc sec money to the government without getting anything in return. This sounds not only unfair but wrong, part of an isolationist, "we killed the natives so this land is our land and the rest of you f@*k-off" revival that includes the recent posting about requiring proof of citizenship before issuing drivers licenses. Stephen From ryan at tach.net Tue Aug 20 14:34:39 1996 From: ryan at tach.net (Ryan M. Leach) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:34:39 +0800 Subject: ok ok ok i know Message-ID: sorry to bother the list with this but i lost the message describing the "unsubscribing" methods for this list (it's way to big for me) can some one mail me instr. on unsubscribing? TIA From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 20 14:45:14 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:45:14 +0800 Subject: Taxes on Internet access prediction Message-ID: At 4:07 AM 8/20/96, Mike McNally wrote: >States and municipalities are taxing internet access. Who wants to >make a prediction about if/when the IRS will start to count net access >as a taxable fringe benefit of employment? > >(At a small company where I once worked, a tax accountant visiting >one day noticed that we had a weight bench set up in a back corner of >the big "back room". He advised us to be careful, because the IRS >could count that as a taxable employee benefit.) I think the test of whether something is a "perq" (or is it "perk"?), and thus possibly taxable to the employee, is whether it is outside the normal bounds of work. Thus, one's office cubicle, computer, office supplies, etc., are not taxable fringe benefits. Membership in a country club is, though. Net access, if primarily used for work-related things, would not be. Just as company phone calls are not treated as a fringe benefit for the employees making the phone calls. Or business trips. And so on. At least one community has tried to treat _parking places_ (and I don't mean special, tree-shaded, reserved, V.I.P. parking places) as taxable benefits. This is to try to get more people to car-pool, or telecommute, or somesuch. Howls of protest pretty much drove this idea back into the hole from whence it came. Many of my Intel friends have Net accounts, obviously, and yet the number of posts on the Usenet or elsewhere from "*.intel.com" are relatively low. I asked a couple of friends of mine about this, and they confirmed that Intel management has discouraged public postings and comments from *.intel.com domain accounts. Understandable, for reasons I have discussed many times. Many employees of companies find it easier to purchase their own account from Netcom, Earthlink, Best, etc., and so have a Net name unaffiliated with their employer. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 20 14:47:59 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:47:59 +0800 Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608201454.HAA04784@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > At 03:18 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > > You know, Amnesty > > has some outstanding policies regarding accuracy, objectivity, and > > universality. > > Such as their policy that disappearances in Cuba are only mentioned in > a vague and euphemistic way somewhere in the fine print of the middle > of their Cuban reports, whereas similar disappearances are shouted from > the rooftops when they happen in right wing South American dictatorships? In a word, no. I wasn't talking about their policy to oppress the Easter Bunny, either. I meant their policy of not taking sides, which in Latin America has often meant that they have less of a left-wing bias than Human Rights Watch. They do not describe people with loaded terms like "pro-democracy," "worker's rights advocate," "freedom fighter," or "social justice activist." They say "this person is in prison for political reasons," and leave it at that. Usually, they don't even identify the reasons -- just the abuse of state power. I've always favored a carefully tailored formalistic approach to human rights and free speech issues, without taking sides on the underlying issues of political controversy. Amnesty and the ACLU generally follow this approach. When they have deviated from that approach to make sweeping statements not tied to *individual* human rights, as Amnesty's general opposition to apartheid and the ACLU's guarded support for majority-minority gerrymandering, I have opposed them. Happily, most of the time, they stay above the fray, which I believe is the only appropriate role for a "human rights organization." I have no objection to anti-communist, anti-fascist, or whatever organizations, but I don't think they should bill themselves as human rights organizations. The Wiesenthal Center to be a "human rights organization"; it's an anti-fascist organization, which does some good, some bad, but always focused on one issue. Human Rights Watch didn't start out as a "human rights organization"; it started out as an anti-communist organization. They have since broadened their scope and international coverage considerably, but their history of making substantitive statements on larger political questions remains. Ironically, now they tend to show a leftist bias. -rich From stephen at iu.net Tue Aug 20 14:49:53 1996 From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:49:53 +0800 Subject: AZ DMV: Citizenship to Drive? (fwd) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960820172648.00cf4364@iu.net> At 07:37 AM 8/20/96 -0400, you wrote: >Your papers, please? > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:04:07 -0700 (PDT) >From: Bob Witanek >To: Recipients of pol-abuse >Subject: AZ DMV: Citizenship to Drive? > >Posted: gdiazj at IMAP1.ASU.EDU > >Today the Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles began requiring >proof of citizenship before issuing a drivers license or a state >identification. This policy was established by HB 2154 which passed >this last session (this one slipped passed me). > >I am helping organize people in Arizona to oppose this. Please >send your information ASAP, we need you your help. > >VIVA LA RAZA >George Diaz, Jr. >gdiazj at imap1.asu.edu >GDIAZJ at aol.com >gdiaz at ci.phoenix.az.us > Not quite sure what this has to do with crypto, but here goes: As with the recent federal legislation denying soc sec benefits to LEGAL aliens who are required by law to pay into the system and can by law be required to serve in the US armed forces, this appears to my untrained eye to be yet another case of isolationist paranoia...I am sure this one violates international agreements that the US has made concerning reciprocal accodomations as far as driving is concerned. I used to be a tax-paying soc sec paying legal alien, but I got so fed up with head-in-the-dirt hicks who thought you had to be a citizen to breathe the prairie dust that I became a citizen for an easier life (and I mean some of these ignorant fools were sons of immigrants who voted agianst the US fighting Hitler!!!!). Because I still talk with something of a foreign accent I still get uneducated idiots, who couldn't pass the test they make foreigners take, lecturing me on what I cannot do because I am a foreigner. The only thing I can't do is run for President. I despair of backwater state legislators, I really do. What to do about this particular problem? Check out the rules on International drivers licenses. I know can drive on them for a year...If you are not allowed a drivers license because you are an alien, maybe you don't need their stinking licenses. Stephen From talon57 at well.com Tue Aug 20 15:12:00 1996 From: talon57 at well.com (Brian D Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:12:00 +0800 Subject: phoneco vs X-phone Message-ID: <199608201800.LAA22929@well.com> Jim bell writes: >What do you mean, "doesn't really fit the facts"?!? What part of >it was incorrect? Fiber-optic _is_ commonly used in inter-office >trunks, right? It doesn't wear out, right? Higher usage doesn't >entail greater costs, right? The capacity, while not strictly >infinite, is high enough so expanded usage doesn't strain most >links, right? Finally, modern phone switches have sufficient >connect capacity so that they can handle usage which would have >been considered "unusual" by yesteryear's standards. All >of this points to an obvious conclusion: Telephone companies do >not, in general, have increased costs as a consequence of >increased telephone usage. Fiber does not wear out per se, but it does need replacing, partly from the inevitable contractor accidents (landscapers) and occasional entropic events. Mux cards and repeaters do go bad on a regular basis, there is a correlation between usage and increased maintenance, and of course increased usage means increased electricity usage. One point that seems to be missed here is the very high cost of compliance with government regulations. If the internet phone people have to comply with the same regulations it will drive up their costs dramatically, and if the regulations are lifted for all, the RBOC's think they can out compete them. Thank you for your interesting post. Brian "Zazen? Well it beats sitting around on your ass all day doing nothing." From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 20 15:15:37 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:15:37 +0800 Subject: Billy boy's satellites [Was - Floating DataHaven] Message-ID: At 4:26 PM 8/20/96, Brian Davis wrote: >On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: >> There's some obvious crypto/GAK/New World Order issues: many countries may >> not care for a communications system which allows citizen-units or enemy >> agents to make phone calls from the middle of the Kalahari desert or from >> within the jungles of Burma. >> > >Or the streets of New York or Washington. Not too long ago, in my former >life as a federal prosecutor, I attended a Computer Crimes conference at >Quantico (the FBI part, not the Marine part). One of the speakers >discussed LEO satellites and satellite cellular phones. The "difficulty" >in wiretapping those phones was of grave concern to most of those present.... I am sure this is a very real concern and a very real motivation for some of the work being done on international key escrow (GAK--Global Access to Keys?). The various governments may be trying to get the several LEO satellite projects to incorporate GAK circuitry now, before it's too late. Once the satellites are up, and the handheld units sold in Fry's and CompUSA, it's too late. I'd hate to see the U.S. on the same side of the issue of free and open communications (which means encrypted, if people so choose) as Burma, Libya, Singapore, and France. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From vipul at pobox.com Tue Aug 20 15:18:20 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:18:20 +0800 Subject: Phoneco vs X-Phone In-Reply-To: <199608181544.IAA18394@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <199608200402.EAA00380@fountainhead.net> > > Well, let's consider such costs. Most of which (maintenance, management, > rolling stock) are unrelated to amount of telephone usage. So there is no > reason that these costs should be unequally attributed to a person who makes > local calls 1 hour per day, as opposed to another who only calls 15 minutes > per day, for example. > > As for the "laying new pipes" issue: Years ago in the the US, when > inter-central-office trunk connections were all implemented using large > bundles of copper pairs, it would have been _correct_ to say that higher > telephone usage resulted in larger costs, since more trunk lines were > necessary. Today, on the other hand, inter-office trunks (at least the new > ones, and I presume that even many of the old ones have been switched over) > are implemented in fiber optics. Extra capacity is either automatically > available (since the capacity of a given fiber is unlikely to be fully used) > or can be fairly simply added by converting old fiber from about 450 > megabits per second to 2.4 gigabits, or even faster rates which have become > more recently available. > Your view point doesn't really fit the facts, but since it is not the issue here, I'll let it go. Can't resist like someone has to pay those 80,000+ employees at AT+T. > >But you miss my point, if a phoneco is not getting a penny for its long > distanceservices (which subsidise the flat rate local calls) then the choice > would > >be to close down. Which would be a severe attack to the local internet usage. > > That's an entirely unsupported claim. Nobody claims that telephone usage > (term used generically) is on the way out. "Closing down" is only going to > happen if local phonecos cease to be able to provide a service that people > are willing to pay for. Exactly! Once "X-Phone" has its servers in US Cities, and its charging 10 cents a minute for long distance calls, I don't see if the phonecos would be able to provide any service that people are willing to pay for, I mean they won't be able to provide matching lucrative rates. You mean to say that, X-Phone will take advantage of the phoneco and mint money for a minimal investment, whereas the phoneco who spent billions on the infrastructure will be just whistle down the road, and let the X-Phone indulge in its own cyberdo. Its like you write a book and the cover designer sells it in his name. Best, - Vipul From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 20 15:19:25 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:19:25 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Brad Dolan wrote: > Roger Morris has documented the base story nicely, first in an article > intended for the Washington Post (but which wound up in Penthouse when the > Post got cold feet) and now in a book, _Partners in Power_. You're joking, right? I must admit that the irony of a story fabricated by the far left being used against the left by the far right is delicious. Just in case you're serious, if you liked Partners in Power, you'll love this... - -rich Gary Hart, George Bush, and Michael Williams Lean forward in your chairs a little more. Get a little closer to the monitor. You need to read every word of this, and slowly. Senator Gary Hart, the man the overwhelming majority of Americans wanted to be their President in 1988, was eliminated from the U.S. Presidential race he was expected to win with the biggest landslide in American history. His elimination from the race was engineered by vice president (and former C.I.A. Director) George Bush, whose father, Senator Prescott Bush, personally financed the political career of Adolf Hitler. Bush employed the use of the C.I.A. and other less official criminal organisations to accomplish his goal of eliminating Hart from the race after I refused to sabotage the Hart campaign and set Hart up for a false arrest. The key C.I.A. operative in the scheme to eliminate Hart from the race was international prostitute, Donna Rice. After Bush and his band of scary men succeeded in eliminating Hart from the race, I convinced him to re-enter it, something no one had ever done before. I formed the "Draft Hart Committee", resurrected his campaign, and managed it, until he was once again eliminated from the race by Bush and his C.I.A. co-conspirators. As my "reward" for my work with the Man Who Would Be President, the fascist criminal tyrant, George Bush, had the F.B.I. arrest me (without any warrant or indictment), torture me for two years, break up my family, arrange for the kidnap of my two small daughters, seize virtually all of my significant assets and property, and, after several assassination attempts failed (as had the attempted Bush-ordered C.I.A. assassination of Senators Gary Hart and William Cohen when they flew to Nicaragua on an Iran-Contra fact-finding mission) exile me to Switzerland, where I have remained ever since, unable to safely return to America, the land of my birth. The story has never been told. Not one American publisher has the courage to publish it. It is fashionable in the United States to be a coward today. In the past nine years, I have been unable to find an attorney willing to properly represent me in my single-handed fight against the F.B.I. and U.S. government, which continues to this day, lasting longer than World War II. So, as it stands, the American people did not get the President they wanted. Instead of President Hart, they got President Bush, who, along with Richard M. Nixon and Lyndon B. Johnson led the conspiracy to assassinate President John F. Kennedy on 22. November 1963 and the coup d'etat it began. Each of the three men then took turns playing "El Presidente" ... each of them were nothing more than four-year dictators. For my role in defending America's liberty and right to vote, I lost everything I had. The story ... has never been told. Just like the story of the JFK assassination. You can visit my web site at: http://www.iahushua.com/mbw.html There, you will find enough information about what George Bush and the fascist U.S. government did to me and my family to ruin your dinner. Eight days ago, when George Bush visited his numbered bank accounts here in Berne, one of the highest-ranking officers of the United States government threatened my life in person. As a matter of fact, I am risking my life by writing this. Even though very few, if any of you, give a damn about what happened to me last Wednesday, or that fateful day of 18 March 1988, when jack-booted thugs with badges broke into my peaceful Rocky Mountain home, I am here to tell you about it, because, as Americans, all of you who sit there on your sofas with your cans of beer and bags of potato chips, doing nothing while your country sinks even farther down the tubes, into a fascist police state, the likes of which the world has never known ... you are all, each and every one of you, equally as responsible for my pain and for the pain of your fellow patriotic countrymen as George Bush and his gang of liars, traitors and thieves. Little by little, the truth is trickling out. As I risk my life today, I now give to you the opportunity to read an article put out by another group of brave people. You lost your chance for President Hart to save your nation. Now, read for yourself how the fascist criminal tyrant drug dealer, George Herbert Walker Bush, who introduced heroin and other hard drugs to the children of America, prevented you from voting for the only man who loved his country enough to save it from what it has now become. Michael Williams Patriot in Exile 06/20/96 Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 8 Num. 19 ====================================== ("Quid coniuratio est?") - ----------------------------------------------------------------- WHO IS DONNA RICE HUGHES? ========================= Following the recent much-cheered ruling by 3 federal judges which, for the moment anyway, has over-ruled the Clinton law against "indecency" on the Internet, I noticed a woman named Donna Rice Hughes appearing on the TV networks. She was said to be with a group called "Enough is Enough", said to be organized to protect children against pornographers supposedly lurking everywhere in cyberspace. Donna Rice Hughes. Take away the "Hughes" and what do you get? You get "Donna Rice", nemesis to 1988 Democratic Party presidential candidate Gary Hart. You may remember how Hart, looking strong as the potential candidate, was sunk by allegations of his shocking (as in "I am shocked... *shocked*") affair with "party girl" Donna Rice. Seems pretty tame, compared with Lothario Bill Clinton's escapades, but for "some reason" the mainstream press really sat up and took notice, playing up the affair for the couch potatoes in TV land. So *if* this is the same Donna Rice, one wonders if she has "got religion" or if the CIA has merely given her a new assignment: working to shut down freedom of speech under the guise of saving our children from pornography. (You remember "saving our children", don't you? Like with President Nixon in 1969 saying he wants to "save our children" from drugs?) Reading in the recent book by Dr. Roger Morris, *Partners in Power*, one finds further background on former candidate Hart. On March 27, 1987, Billy Clinton is sucking up to Hollywood types on the west coast. At an exclusive dinner, King Clinton dines with, among others, Don Henley, formerly of the Eagles rock band. Close friend to Henley is Donna Rice, who is at about that time boarding a yacht called the *Monkey Business*. Young Senator Hart had been on the Church committee which investigated the CIA and its ties to organized crime. After that, he was on the Senate Intelligence Oversight Committee where, says Morris, he continued a relentless effort to uncover CIA hanky-panky. Hart strongly opposed the Nicaraguan Contra war and was skeptical of the official "Oswald did it" version of the JFK assassination. Mobster Santos Trafficante is alleged to have stated, regarding Hart: "We need to get rid of the son of a bitch." Hart seems to have been set up, says Morris, and gives evidence to back up the claim. Readers of Conspiracy Nation are most likely well-aware as to how CIA/Mafia have often used "party girls" to compromise and/or ruin politicians. Was Donna Rice just a "party girl", or was she more than that? And just who *is* this person called "Donna Rice Hughes" of an organization called "Enough is Enough"? Did "somebody" get a promotion? - ----------------------------------------------------------------- I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation." - ----------------------------------------------------------------- If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail address, send a message in the form "subscribe cn-l My Name" to listproc at cornell.edu (Note: that is "CN-L" *not* "CN-1") - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For information on how to receive the improved Conspiracy Nation Newsletter, send an e-mail message to bigred at shout.net - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Want to know more about Whitewater, Oklahoma City bombing, etc? (1) telnet prairienet.org (2) logon as "visitor" (3) go citcom - ----------------------------------------------------------------- See also: http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html - ----------------------------------------------------------------- See also: ftp.shout.net pub/users/bigred - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt. Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMhn1OJNcNyVVy0jxAQGP/AIAyVm3nT87lX6looOpnQumn6xJtlK9YOwD tBQCD3ol3PmzQof5JFX+agirdIZxUGC1/hhC0a3xMjtaBT1/y0KXvw== =8Uaz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fair at cesium.clock.org Tue Aug 20 15:22:09 1996 From: fair at cesium.clock.org (Erik E. Fair (Time Keeper)) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:22:09 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level Message-ID: SSH, while a quite useful tool, is not the right long-term solution for transport layer security - IP security is. It's also clear to me that for E-mail, you don't want transport level security for the system; you want "object" security, that is, digital signature and encryption of the mail message. That way, no matter how many MTAs the message passes through (and pretty much regardless of how trustworthy they are) you have end-to-end authentication, integrity and privacy. Erik Fair From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 20 15:22:34 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:22:34 +0800 Subject: Taxes on Internet access prediction Message-ID: At 5:54 PM 8/20/96, Mike McNally wrote: >Sure, but clearly that's not exclusively the case. (Amazingly enough >to some might be the fact that my for-work e-mail volume far exceeds >my not-for-work volume.) Hopefully I haven't brought too much shame >to my employer. > >In any case, with the IRS it's often less a matter of common sense >than what they happen to decide is The Law. Witness the changes in >laws about what constitutes a "home office". Currently, if you're >(let's say) a freelance plumber who maintains a legitimate office ... Caveat: I'm not a defender of income taxes, of course. Nor am I a defender of the IRS. However, on the "home office" situation, most of the examples I encounter, in talking to friends, are clearly scams to save a thousand bucks (or less) on their tax returns. Most of my friends who try to deduct a room in their house because they've put their computer there are clearly not using "20%" or "25%" or whatever of their house as a business. For those who really do actually use a room in their home for building things, for meeting with clients, for operating a home business of some sort, then I think the IRS will have no problems allowing it. (If the subject even comes up, in an audit. There are some reports that attempting to declare a home office increases ones chances of being audited....) As the saying goes, consult a competent expert. A few books detail the expected amount of work that must be done in a "home office," and whether one is likely to qualify. As one data point, I have derived nearly all of my income over the past 10 years from investments. And yet the "work" needed to be done on my computer is such a tiny fraction of my overall use of it that I don't even try to write off my various computers as "investment expenses." Your mileage may vary. And I certainly have not tried to write off a room in my house as a home office. (As it happens, I need few of the "office" resources, so I have my PowerMac and 17" monitor sitting beside my recliner in the family room of my house, where I can lie back, log in, and bliss out in cyberspace.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From snow at smoke.suba.com Tue Aug 20 15:23:37 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:23:37 +0800 Subject: Naked woman decapitates man on Internet!!! In-Reply-To: <199608200525.WAA07745@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Ross Wright wrote: > On Or About 19 Aug 96, 20:37, Timothy C. May wrote: > > At 2:00 AM 8/20/96, Lucky Green wrote: > > >On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Mark O. Aldrich wrote: > > >> On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > > >> http://www.grotesque.com/ > > >That was intense... > > But not as intense as it could be with Internet video! > Sick, stuff. Yet everyone has to sneek a peek, just like a car > crash. Hey, I did. I made the whole trip through the lurid pages. Yes, those two were a little sick, but I thought the pictures a little tame. They showed a total lack of imagination. Booorrrrriiiinnnngggg. Then again, in a past existence I worked as a registration clerk in an emergency room, so it takes a bit to turn my stomach (visually, smells _still_ get to me.) Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From frantz at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 15:24:33 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:24:33 +0800 Subject: [RANT] Death of Usenet: Film at 11 Message-ID: <199608201816.LAA22095@netcom8.netcom.com> At 11:21 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Roger Healy OBC wrote: >ON >> >> At 1:34 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote: >> >Permit me to go off in an orthogonal direction here and say that >> >I think that we should do away with the concept of a pre-ordained >> >newsgroups in Usenet entirely, in favor of an IRC-like dynamic >> >creation of message pools. >> >> Moderated newsgroups gain reputation from their moderation policies and >> probably should not be included in this scheme. > >Moderated newsgroups have very few posts because hardly anyone reads >them. I second the above propsed IRC-like scheme if it only would apply >to moderated groups, because of IRC's bad reputation of moderation. Don't confuse quantity with quality. When I want a FAQ for some area I don't normally follow, I go to news.answers. I know I won't be buried in social good times the way someone who wants to know about cryptography is buried when they go to cyperpunks. I have no such assurance if I were to go to the news group which created the FAQ. The reason there are so many different models on the net is they each serve a purpose. Don't make the mistake of trying to jam everything into one mold. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From m5 at vail.tivoli.com Tue Aug 20 15:32:15 1996 From: m5 at vail.tivoli.com (Mike McNally) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:32:15 +0800 Subject: Taxes on Internet access prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3219FBBF.5D6A@vail.tivoli.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > > Net access, if primarily used for work-related things, would not be. > Just as company phone calls are not treated as a fringe benefit for > the employees making the phone calls. Or business trips. And so on. Sure, but clearly that's not exclusively the case. (Amazingly enough to some might be the fact that my for-work e-mail volume far exceeds my not-for-work volume.) Hopefully I haven't brought too much shame to my employer. In any case, with the IRS it's often less a matter of common sense than what they happen to decide is The Law. Witness the changes in laws about what constitutes a "home office". Currently, if you're (let's say) a freelance plumber who maintains a legitimate office in your home, where nothing at all but plumbing-related stuff is kept and plumbing-related work is done (booking jobs over the phone), but most of your actual workday is spent out under people's sinks and most of your money is made out there in the field, then the IRS will not allow you to treat that home office as an expense. (At least, that's my recollection of an NPR story from a year or two ago.) ______c_________________________________________________________________ Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, m5 at tivoli.com * m101 at io.com * * three heads and eight arms. From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Tue Aug 20 16:09:59 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:09:59 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: you really need both object and transport level security; the transport level stuff helps protect against traffic analysis; the real authentication and privacy coming from the object level stuff. Simon --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From rittle at comm.mot.com Tue Aug 20 16:45:50 1996 From: rittle at comm.mot.com (Loren James Rittle) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:45:50 +0800 Subject: RFC1984 on Cryptographic Technology Message-ID: <9608201826.AA26429@supra.comm.mot.com> FYI, To: IETF-Announce:;@ietf.org Subject: RFC1984 on Cryptographic Technology Cc: rfc-ed at isi.edu Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 08:40:43 PDT Sender: ietf-announce-request at ietf.org From: RFC Editor A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 1984: Title: IAB and IESG Statement on Cryptographic Technology and the Internet Author: IAB & IESG Date: August 1996 Mailbox: brian at dxcoms.cern.ch, fred at cisco.com Pages: 5 Characters: 10,738 Updates/Obsoletes: none URL: ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc1984.txt The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) and the Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG), the bodies which oversee architecture and standards for the Internet, are concerned by the need for increased protection of international commercial transactions on the Internet, and by the need to offer all Internet users an adequate degree of privacy. Security mechanisms being developed in the Internet Engineering Task Force to meet these needs require and depend on the international use of adequate cryptographic technology. Ready access to such technology is therefore a key factor in the future growth of the Internet as a motor for international commerce and communication. [...] From eagle at armory.com Tue Aug 20 16:47:18 1996 From: eagle at armory.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:47:18 +0800 Subject: Key Length Correlation Message-ID: <9608201302.aa18129@deepthought.armory.com> I've read Blaze and diffie's paper on Semetric Key Length. I'm currious how semetric key length correlates to public key cryptography length. Does public key length have to be much longer, (assuming the algorithms are strong), to provide the same level of security as a shorter semetric key? TIA -- According to John Perry Barlow: *What is EFF?* "Jeff Davis is a truly gifted trouble-maker." *email * *** O U T L A W S On The E L E C T R O N I C F R O N T I E R **** US Out Of Cyberspace!!! Join EFF Today! *email * From pstira at escape.com Tue Aug 20 16:52:08 1996 From: pstira at escape.com (pstira at escape.com) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:52:08 +0800 Subject: lambda 2.10 (fwd) -- (ie -- French Consitution censors net) Message-ID: Just passing this on in case it strikes anyone's interest :) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:10:02 +0100 From: Jerome Thorel To: thorel at netpress.fr Subject: lambda 2.10 netizen's --> Lambda Bulletin 2.10 <-- contents flash bulletin + French Constitution censors Internet control + Singapore and the Censorship Proxy Server + G7 and the EC take strong steps for Key Escrow Encryption * * * * * French Constitution censors Internet control As we speculated in our last bulletin (2.09), the French Conseil Constitutionnel, watchdog of the 1958 Constitution, censored 2 articles in a new telecom act which were intended to establish a kind of administrative control over Internet speech and online services. The nine "Sages" said that the creation of the Conseil Superieur de la Telematique, which would have make guidelines on Internet content, breaches article 34 of the Constitution which states that the Parliament can act alone to dictate rules concerning "civic rights and fundamentals garanties given to citizens for a fair exercice of public liberties". The CST could have undermine these principles, because the law didn't specify clearly how it would have taken its decisions. So the Conseil recognized the particular state of the Internet, which is not a basic medium. Only one section remains in the censored law : it obliges ISPs to give their clients "technical means" to forbid or select access to online services, software that allows a so-called "parental control". * * * * * Singapore and the Censorship Proxy Server A communique from SingNet, Singapore's main Internet Service Provider, states that "ALL SingNet customers will be required to connect to SingNet's proxy server by the deadline September 14th 1996, failing which you would not be able to access the web without the proxy. This applies to all dial-up, ISDN, and leased line customers (STIX customers are exempted). " The proxy server will ease the ISP to "Deny access to blacklisted sites supplied by SBA". SingNet said that "Access to sites banned by the SBA will prompt the message : The site you requested is not accessible For more information on Singapore's Internet regulation, please check http://www.gov.sg/sba/netreg/regrel.htm". On July 11 the Singapore government passed the Singapore Broadcasting Authority Act (Chapter 297) in which it announced a "Class Licence Scheme" aimed "to encourage responsible use of the Internet while facilitating its healthy development in Singapore. It encourages minimum standards in cyberspace and seeks to protect Net users, particularly the young, against the broadcast of unlawful or objectionable materials. ... SBA will focus on content which may undermine public morals, political stability and religious harmony of Singapore. However, SBA recognises that it is impossible to regulate the Internet fully. ... Singaporeans can help SBA in the identification of objectionable sites in order to keep cyberspace clean. SBA welcomes public feedback on objectionable content found on the Internet. Members of the public can write to SBA, call its toll-free hotline ... or post their views on the SBA homepage at http://www.gov.sg/sba. " China, which has created its own Internet regulations aimed at controlic data traffic and urged netizens to declare themselves to the authorities, approved the Singapore Act and an official was quoted as saying, "China has a lot to learn from Singapore's experience" (source : Fight-censorship mailing list). * * * * * G7 and the EC take strong steps for Key Escrow Encryption The European Commission's DG-13 division on information security (Infosec) opened on July 30th a "call for tenders" for "preparatory works" towards regulating encryption procedures. The plan is aimed to test the introduction of the Europe-wide network of Trusted Third Party Services (ETS). Observers saw in this move the so-called "guidelines" the EC was to propose last year, when press reports (Nature, Sept. 28, 1995) argued the Commission and the Council of Europe in Strasbourg were willing to regulate encryption use through the creation of TTPs. The Infosec call for tenders, which will end by September 30, is to "identify, define and verify ... operationnal, technical, regulatory and legal aspects ... to assess the effectiveness, economics and acceptability of Trusted Third Party Services." Other voices in European talks, however, said these "preparatory works" are to push for EU countries to adopt TTPs and the principles of key-escrow encryption. Nordic countries such as Finland, Denmark and Sweden, are said to be opposed to change encryption legislation, as France and Britain took steps in June and July to enforce the creation of TTPs in their own country. On July 30 G7 countries agreed policies that would "accelerate consultations on encryption that allows, when necessary, lawful government access to data and communications in order to prevent or investigate acts of terrorism, while protecting the privacy of legitimate communications". The EPIC, in Washington, DC, said "stronger measures sought by the US to restrict information on the Internet and limit the availabilioty of encryption were apparently not adopted by the G7 countries". Among other industrialised nations, Japan and Australia are said, like Nordic countries in Europe, to oppose key escrow as a mean to regulate the free flow of information. Remember the OECD talks in June, were the US tried to impose key-escrow legislation to the 27-countries' club of the industrial world (see lambda 2.09) ***** Soon archived on www.freenix.fr/netizen ----- Jerome Thorel =-= Journaliste/Free-lance Reporter =-= Paris, France =+= the lambda bulletin --> http://www.freenix.fr/netizen =+= From kdf at gigo.com Tue Aug 20 16:58:13 1996 From: kdf at gigo.com (John Erland) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:58:13 +0800 Subject: How To Subscribe? Message-ID: <6e1_9608201252@gigo.com> Would someone please netmail me the current subscription procedure? Thanks. JE -- : Fidonet: John Erland 1:203/7707.12 .. speaking for only myself. : Internet: kdf at gigo.com From frantz at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 17:07:02 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:07:02 +0800 Subject: Netscape 3.0 and encryption choices Message-ID: <199608201820.LAA22622@netcom8.netcom.com> At 1:04 AM 8/20/96 -0700, Ted Cabeen wrote: >In Netscape 3.0, the program allows the user to specify which encryption >standards to allow connections with. It allows encryption with 128-bit RC4, >128-bit RC2, and 156-bit(I think)3DES. Of these three, which would be the >most secure method? The gereral consensus of the experts is that 168 bit 3DES is the best choice. DES has been well studied, 168 bit keys are large enough to be safe, and the ITAR forbids its export. (ITAR also forbids export of 128 bit cyphers as well, but ITAR is the only NSA approved reputation agent for crypto, so we use what we have.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From bdolan at use.usit.net Tue Aug 20 17:28:59 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:28:59 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Brad Dolan wrote: > > > Roger Morris has documented the base story nicely, first in an article > > intended for the Washington Post (but which wound up in Penthouse when the > > Post got cold feet) and now in a book, _Partners in Power_. > > You're joking, right? I must admit that the irony of a story fabricated by > the far left being used against the left by the far right is delicious. > > Just in case you're serious, if you liked Partners in Power, you'll love > this... > > - -rich > > Gary Hart, George Bush, and Michael Williams [...] Goofy guy agrees with Morris about X, therefore Morris' well-documented claims about X and Y are false? Maybe I should have cited R. Emmett Tyrell's _Boy Clinton_? ;-) It also rained cocaine in Tennessee in the '80s, but the authorities never seemed to notice. Ask the Knoxville _News-Sentinel_ how many stories it can find in its archives relating to planes loaded with cocaine crash-landing on remote airstrips, airdrops being found in citizens' yards, etc. Then ask the DEA what it did about those events. bd p.s. Donna Rice has lately been running point for a regulate-the-internet front group. I wouldn't put anything past her. From stephen at iu.net Tue Aug 20 17:50:46 1996 From: stephen at iu.net (Stephen Cobb) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:50:46 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960820214340.005d0b98@iu.net> At 11:29 AM 8/20/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi, > >Recently, I've been looking into securing email at the MTA level, and >would like to get your thoughts on implementation possibilities and >related issues. > >The problems that I'm trying to solve are: > 1. Host authentication > 2. Data privacy > Hmmm, have you thought about how this might fit/mesh/work with the security mechanisms in IPv6? Just a thought...Stephen From fair at cesium.clock.org Tue Aug 20 17:52:55 1996 From: fair at cesium.clock.org (Erik E. Fair (Timekeeper)) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:52:55 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7314.840575777@cesium.clock.org> While I agree in general, I think I'd rather see effort spent on getting everyone on message security first, and worry about traffic analysis later. My fear is that, having attempted (since it's unlikely we'll ever manage to get 100%) to secure the transport, people will stop worrying about message security, and let that slide. To put it another way, the first order of business is to prevent everyone from reading the mails. We can afford to worry about second order effects like traffic analysis after message security is well under way (say, 50% of all nominally private message traffic is encrypted). Or, put it yet another way: time for everyone to host a PGP key signing party for your friends, neighbors, and co-workers! Erik E. Fair fair at clock.org From talon57 at well.com Tue Aug 20 17:57:10 1996 From: talon57 at well.com (Brian D Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:57:10 +0800 Subject: phoneco vs x-phones Message-ID: <199608202121.OAA20223@well.com> Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own, I do not speak for Ameritech or it's alliance partners. I wrote: >>One point that seems to be missed here is the very high cost of >>compliance with government regulations. If the internet phone >>people have to comply with the same regulations it will drive up >>their costs dramatically, and if the regulations are lifted for >>all, the RBOC's think they can out compete them. Jim Bell replies: >If that is the main difference in costs, then we should abandon >those regs. Another big cost is billing, which could be eliminated >if usage were unmetered. In any case, I tend to agree: Make >these changes, eliminate the LD/local subsidy, and the LD >companies would have no problem (at least domestically) competing >against Internet phone. (International may be a different story, >because foreign telcos tend to be owned by countries.) Yes compliance costs are a sore subject. Billing costs are actually very cheap,(the mainframes are on the floor above me) the difference between sending a metered bill or a flat rate bill is tiny. Really tiny (NDA). The local/long distance subsidy was eliminated at breakup, but long distance companies do have to pay to use local networks, but as competition heats up these rates are dropping and new players (competitors) join the table, Or they can build their own. ;) One of the fun turns of events might be that the threat of x-phones might lead the RBOC's to actually turn into an ISP's! We could pull this off at amazing speed. (if you can't beat them, join them!) We are after all one of the four major nodes of the Internet...... Heh heh heh....... Brian "Zazen? Well it beats sitting around on your ass all day doing nothing." From vipul at pobox.com Tue Aug 20 18:00:53 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:00:53 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608210407.EAA00568@fountainhead.net> I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of spamming here? Is spamming free speech? - Vipul From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Aug 20 18:01:17 1996 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:01:17 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level In-Reply-To: <199608201529.LAA01469@goffette.research.megasoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, C Matthew Curtin wrote: > Recently, I've been looking into securing email at the MTA level, and > Two types of approaches are possible: > 1. Adding to the SMTP protocol itself, allowing for MTAs to > identify crypto-capable peers, and then performing > authentication and session encryption where possible. > 2. Waiting for a cryptographic transport layer network protocol > (such as what is being proposed in draft-ietf-tls-ssh-00), > allowing SMTP to remain untouched, and only requiring MTAs to > add support for the new network protocol. > > I like the second approach better, because it allows more problems to > be solved with one move, and it would be easier to add crypto > I mentioned my interest in an SSH-capable MTA to Tatu Ylonen > My questions are: > 1. Which of the two approaches seems to make the most sense to > you? I think something like the first one would be a little bit better. In my mind I see something similar to the "ESMTP" message appearing on connection to the mail daemon - "SSLESMTP" if you will. Then client could issue a "ENCD SSL" command (or whatever) and it would go crypto. I already have used telnet and FTP clients that does something similar to this, and they work almost transparently.... > 2. Is there another approach that could work better? > 3. Is there interest in adding SSH functionality to sendmail in > the near future (either by the draft spec, or once the RFC has > been published)? Have you looked at SSL? It allows different algorithms to be used, etc. etc. (although the certificate & key distribution method uses x509, which may be a pain...?). The SSLeay library is a freely available implementation of SSLv2. Just MHO, --==== Elliot Lee = == Red Hat Software ====-- "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea; massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 20 18:05:43 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:05:43 +0800 Subject: Indonesia detains democracy activist after post to mailing list (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Sean McGrath wrote: > > ...llike the Berkeley administration's reading student email ... > > This was a paranoid fantasy that became a rumor and is on its was to an > urban ledgend. The UC administration does not have the inclination, > interest or resources to monitor email. > > Sean McGrath I have clarified my sarcasm in private email. Apparently there are some new people here who are unaware that I'm Evil, and thus misinterpreted my meaning. Anyone who is still confused should check out articles <199608138907.ZOG at c2.org> and <4urjjj$7v2 at Networking.Stanford.EDU> in comp.org.eff.talk. - -rich fucking statist holocaust fetishist enemy of freedom content-free flamer (tm) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMhogZJNcNyVVy0jxAQEF4wH+M0T4LlIIKZta0EMQjpBf+Vo/Zrxatc/q dpsjq3qImzoiKb+nYgd+a5tf2T2ai/pJVXgLqVYYfrIMjdNPFYyo3w== =mvtx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Scottauge at aol.com Tue Aug 20 18:07:23 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:07:23 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <960820183645_506047852@emout10.mail.aol.com> Rush Limbaugh reports: That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of us) were mentioned that they deemed threatening. Ahhh, good to live in a free country.... From vipul at pobox.com Tue Aug 20 18:21:55 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:21:55 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <199608201554.LAA04383@rom.oit.gatech.edu> Message-ID: <199608210329.DAA00542@fountainhead.net> > A short time ago, at a computer terminal far, far away, Frank Stuart wrote: > >however, I think those in a position to do so should start with the spin > >control. Some suggestions: > > > > The fact that even the U.S. Justice Department is unable to adequately > > protect it's own site from intruders underscores the need for widely- > > available strong encryption. > > > > While this is certainly a major embarrassment for the Justice Department, > > at least the mandatory "key escrow" program the Clinton administration is > > insisting upon has not yet been implemented; no private citizens' data > > appears to have been compromised this time. > > > > It's doubtful that a new law or government bureaucracy would have prevented > > this from happening but it's entirely possible that tools such as strong > > encryption could have. It's ironic that the U.S. Government is focusing on > > the former while fighting use of the latter. > > I understand how it affects their claim for the security of escrowed > keys, but I'm afraid I don't follow the other argument. How would the > wide availability of strong encryption have helped prevent the breakin? > How would encryption in general prevent breakins? I'd love to use this > as an argument for strong encryption, but I don't see how it really > applies. I think its a DOJ's doing. They prolly want to show the courts how bad hackers can get so they can conjure up some support in forthcomming trials. C'mon the sysadmins aren't fools, they surely see their own site. - Vipul vipul at pobox.com From frantz at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 18:23:38 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:23:38 +0800 Subject: Key Length Correlation Message-ID: <199608202153.OAA21170@netcom8.netcom.com> At 1:02 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Jeff Davis wrote: >I've read Blaze and diffie's paper on Semetric Key Length. I'm currious >how semetric key length correlates to public key cryptography length. Does >public key length have to be much longer, (assuming the algorithms are strong), >to provide the same level of security as a shorter semetric key? TIA According to Applied Cryptography V2, Symmetric and Public-key Key Lengths with Similar Resistances to Brute-Force Attacks Symmetric Public-key Key Length Key Length 56 bits 348 bits 64 bits 512 bits 80 bits 768 bits 112 bits 1792 bits 128 bits 2304 bits Regards - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From Scottauge at aol.com Tue Aug 20 18:26:39 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:26:39 +0800 Subject: cryptoanalysis 002 Message-ID: <960820183644_506047835@emout17.mail.aol.com> I agree on expanding the symbols to represent the alphabet. For example, if the crypto-alphabet for e is 23, 45, 190, 200, etc, one can remove some of the frequency for a letter. This definately makes it harder to attack with the frequency analysis method because the "resolution" of the distribution for the letter is lessened to a near randomness. (So it looks, there are still clues, eh?) From jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com Tue Aug 20 18:27:19 1996 From: jeffb at issl.atl.hp.com (Jeff Barber) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:27:19 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960820135236.0ca75906@pop.mhv.net> Message-ID: <199608202041.QAA13905@jafar.issl.atl.hp.com> Lynne L. Harrison writes: > > At 07:08 PM 8/19/96 -0500, Igor Chudov wrote: > > > >I personally find the web page very well and artistically done, and > >extremely funny. The guy who did it had a good taste. > > I personally found the page to be offensive and disagree highly with the > person having "good taste". > Following the premise that another posted to this list, there were ways of > focusing on opposing the CDA without insulting women and/or minorities. I > also agree that this act is going to backfire by giving the DOJ fodder when > the case reaches the Supreme Court. > IMO, it was patently obvious that it was a kid or kids that did it who > gave no substantial thought on the consequences of his/their act. While I wouldn't say that the site was exactly "in good taste", there was nothing there that was offensive to me. And I don't really see why anything there should have offended women (the mere sight of female genitalia, presumably, is offensive to women? One wonders how women ever manage to get dressed in the morning without keeling over from self-induced mortification? Or is it hillaryshair.com that is offensive to women?), or minorities (simply because Hitler's name and picture were displayed, I guess?). Besides, I've seen no evidence that the page was actually created by an Evil Hacker who broke in; how do we know it wasn't just a low-level DoJ sysadmin following orders? After all, if the reaction you fear from the Supremes is so likely, why couldn't a pro-CDA staffer simply supply ready-made fodder. The web page is pure satire and not poorly done, IMO, at least from a political viewpoint. If this sort of display would be banned by the CDA, then I'd say we are all quite right to fear it This is exactly the kind of "speech" that the CDA must *not* be allowed to ban. The bottom line for the DoJ is that this merely proves the need for better security on their web site (if indeed it *was* a breakin by an Evil Hacker, of course). -- Jeff From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 20 18:35:47 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:35:47 +0800 Subject: Pappieren, bitte! (and Taxes, National Debt) Message-ID: <199608202257.PAA24418@mail.pacifier.com> At 12:18 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >One estimate I have seen places the overall national debt, counting >obligations and promised payments, at $20 trillion, or four times the >official number. And it is still increasing every year. To see how large >this is, there are 100 million taxpayers in the U.S., roughly. This means >each of these taxpayers has an average indebtedness of $200,000. Most >American households do not have this amount of money in total net worth, >obviously. Thus, they "owe" much more than they are worth. > >Obviously enough, the portion of this debt is not distributed uniformly >amongst households, or won't be if it is ever collected. But you get the >drift. The country has been spending far more than it has been taking in >for many years, and is far worse shape than "official" figures about the >National Debt would tend to suggest. > >Neither Dole nor Clinton appear to want to talk about this, both having >done their parts to make the situation what it is today. This is exactly why I'm astonished when a few people occasionally (and, prematurely) reject my "Assassination Politics" idea. If the problem is as big as all that (and it is!) then these people are well and truly guilty of way more than enough crimes to merit their deaths. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Aug 20 18:38:03 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:38:03 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608202321.QAA00971@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 20 Aug 96, 18:36, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > Rush Limbaugh reports: Well, if Rush was a reporter this might have some meaning. > > That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You > Suck". How long were they in jail? And many other questions come to mind. > > The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the > rest of us) were mentioned that they deemed threatening. I'd wonder about that. > > Ahhh, good to live in a free country.... > This is as free as it gets these days. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 20 18:38:39 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:38:39 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wish they'd get back in the business, but add an overt poison to the product. Clean out the shit from the cities. Long live Darwinism. From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 20 19:32:40 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:32:40 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960820101053.0069d994@mail.io.com> Message-ID: Parties can also conceal their identity, by leave of the court. As in the notorious, Roe v. Wade ~~~ From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 20 19:40:04 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:40:04 +0800 Subject: "Utilization Review" In-Reply-To: <199608200618.XAA18824@netcom8.netcom.com> Message-ID: We _had_ economic cryptoanarchy several centuries ago, with respect to unpredictable, but expected risks in merchant shipping. A bunch of them thar crypro-anarchists were the ones who invented modern insurance, in the manifestation of Lloyds of London. If you want to convince the masses - or even fashion elites such as myself - to forego recourse to voluntary risk sharing.... you have your work cut out for you. From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 20 19:58:01 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:58:01 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, oh, I'm breathing hard now. The majorityh of the nation wanted President Hart. And that poor decent man was _raped_ by the bimbo. He didn't want to do it with her, but she forcibly made him do it. Oh my God. From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 20 20:05:14 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:05:14 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats (getting off topic) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960820173846.007137e4@iu.net> Message-ID: You miss the point. The FICA never WAS a "social security tax". There never WAS any "entitlement". THeir return on paying FICA is that the INS is funded to deport them if they go out of status. And good riddance. From alanh at infi.net Tue Aug 20 20:15:50 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:15:50 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Federal seizures are published before the levy is finalized, so that lien-holders can assert their interest. From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Aug 20 20:26:15 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:26:15 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608202313.QAA00726@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 21 Aug 96, 4:07, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of > spamming here? Is spamming free speech? > > - Vipul The way I see it: if you narrow your targeting, by research, you can send SPAM to people who may really have a need for your products and services. I send spam. I am very apologetic, but I send only to software manufacturers. I sell software media and duplication, so most software makers can relate to a request for me to quote on their needs. BUT I OBJECT to spamming of usenet, and my mailing lists that I read. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Aug 20 20:39:57 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:39:57 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote: > Federal seizures are published before the levy is finalized, so that > lien-holders can assert their interest. The publication alone is not sufficent to constitute notice however. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From fstuart at vetmed.auburn.edu Tue Aug 20 20:44:49 1996 From: fstuart at vetmed.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:44:49 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <199608202331.SAA25854@snoopy.vetmed.auburn.edu> [...] Will Day (willday at rom.oit.gatech.edu) wrote: >I understand how it affects their claim for the security of escrowed >keys, but I'm afraid I don't follow the other argument. How would the >wide availability of strong encryption have helped prevent the breakin? >How would encryption in general prevent breakins? I'd love to use this >as an argument for strong encryption, but I don't see how it really >applies. Since we don't know how the intruders broke in, we can only speculate. I can think of several scenarios where cryptographic techniques could help. I can also think of several where they wouldn't. When you've only got 20 seconds to explain to a non-technical audience, I don't think it's dishonest to say that it might have prevented it. Off the top of my head, here are a couple examples: 1. It's possible that a DOJ employee logged in from a remote site while the intruders were snooping somewhere along the way. If the link had been encrypted, that would have made things much more difficult or impossible for the attackers. 2. Perhpas the intruders used IP spoofing and .rhosts to break in. If machines had to be cryptographically authenticated, a rsh from the wrong machine wouldn't work. I think my 20 seconds are up. :> | (Douglas) Hofstadter's Law: | It always takes longer than you expect, even Frank Stuart | when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 20 20:59:17 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:59:17 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote: > I wish they'd get back in the business, but add an overt poison to the > product. > > Clean out the shit from the cities. Long live Darwinism. Actually, I'd say that's closer to Lamarckism. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, by the accumulation and inheritance of acquired rather than innate goods. If we were thrown back to a natural Darwinian world, I doubt many of us would last long. -rich From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 20 21:05:44 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:05:44 +0800 Subject: Pappieren, bitte! (and Taxes, National Debt) Message-ID: At 5:38 PM 8/20/96, Stephen Cobb wrote: >At 05:32 PM 8/19/96 -0400, you wrote: >>It sounds unfair, for sure. However, the whole thing is a fraud based >>upon a myth. FICA witholding is NOT credited to an individual's account, >>or even to Social Security benefits in general. By statutory law, all >>such receipts go into the Treasury's general fund. >> >>So, they are NOT "social security contributions". Period. >> >Very true...what I am saying is that, as far as my reading goes, LEGAL >aliens are going to be required to pay social security "taxes" while not >having any "entitlement" in return. They pay income taxes and get certain >things, like law and order, in return. They will be paying soc sec money to >the government without getting anything in return. This sounds not only >unfair but wrong, part of an isolationist, "we killed the natives so this >land is our land and the rest of you f@*k-off" revival that includes the >recent posting about requiring proof of citizenship before issuing drivers >licenses. Not only will they not be legally able to drive, but as we all have been discussing, driver's licenses are the de facto forms of identification demanded by most merchants, most airlines, etc. I think the "no driver's licenses to illegal aliens" makes a certain kind of sense, though. (Not that I don't have some compassion for them, being an open borders advocate.) If the State gives official documents to illegal aliens, what's the point of their being classified as illegal aliens? Ditto for the various taxes, income or SS or property or whatever. If the State says to someone, "OK, you don't have to pay taxes because you're an illegal alien," the chaos that would follow is clear. Employers cannot withold taxes (income, state, SS) from some employees and not from others. (Of course, employers are expected to get a SS number from all employees, so, in theory, illegal aliens would be unable to work without one....) One final note on the Social Security mess. Not only is it not a true insurance plan, with contributions being invested in a fund of some sort, it is much worse than this. Contributions are sent immediately into the "general fund," to be spent on B-2 bombers, new administrative buildings, salaries of government workers, pork for Congressvarmints, Seawolf submarines, space stations, welfare payments, foreign aid to Israel and Egypt, and so on and so forth. What the govenment does is to send an "I.O.U." to the Social Security people, promising to someday make good on the money already spent. Distressingly, but not surprisingly, these I.O.U.s are *NOT* counted as part of the National Debt. Thus, the national debt is much worse than the $5 trillion or so it is officially estimated to be. One estimate I have seen places the overall national debt, counting obligations and promised payments, at $20 trillion, or four times the official number. And it is still increasing every year. To see how large this is, there are 100 million taxpayers in the U.S., roughly. This means each of these taxpayers has an average indebtedness of $200,000. Most American households do not have this amount of money in total net worth, obviously. Thus, they "owe" much more than they are worth. Obviously enough, the portion of this debt is not distributed uniformly amongst households, or won't be if it is ever collected. But you get the drift. The country has been spending far more than it has been taking in for many years, and is far worse shape than "official" figures about the National Debt would tend to suggest. Neither Dole nor Clinton appear to want to talk about this, both having done their parts to make the situation what it is today. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From proff at suburbia.net Tue Aug 20 21:08:11 1996 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:08:11 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608210005.KAA12548@suburbia.net> > > I wish they'd get back in the business, but add an overt poison to the > product. > > Clean out the shit from the cities. Long live Darwinism. Darwinism is working as well as it ever was. You may not like it, but shit is being selected for. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff at suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff at gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 20 21:15:41 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:15:41 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: At 10:36 PM 8/20/96, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: >Rush Limbaugh reports: > >That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". > >The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of us) >were mentioned that they deemed threatening. > >Ahhh, good to live in a free country.... Ironically, at a recent Clinton rally the "person of poundage" comedienne Rosie O'Donnell led a "Dole Sucks!" cheer. (This was reported in the news because it apparently was an embarassment to the Clintons.) A double standard? Or is the crime the insulting of the monarch? --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jim at acm.org Tue Aug 20 21:20:31 1996 From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:20:31 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <199608210407.EAA00568@fountainhead.net> Message-ID: <199608202323.QAA21334@mycroft.rand.org> Vipul Ved Prakash writes: >I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of spamming >here? Is spamming free speech? Your right to speak freely is protected in the US. Your right to blare simultaneously with a megaphone at every on-line crowd in the world is not. I know of no laws prohibiting your spamming, and I know of no laws that would prevent someone from interfering with your spamming. It's a vigilante world... this year. I oppose spamming because it's rude and inefficient, lowering the S/N everywhere it happens. Market droids favor it because it's cheap, and no matter how many people they piss off bigtime, they make some sales. People who oppose spam should do what they can to make it less cost-effective... within legal limits, I suppose. Perhaps the cypherpunk relevance is that next generation Usenet and mailing lists could require the moderator's digital signature before propagation happens... but I'd prefer to see an unexpected upwelling of politeness. Jim Gillogly 28 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 23:11 From qut at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 21:25:24 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:25:24 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks Message-ID: <199608210110.SAA24006@netcom.netcom.com> The Subject: line says it all. My suggestion number #1: No moderation. -- Skip, OBC From qut at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 21:43:06 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:43:06 +0800 Subject: License Plates Message-ID: <199608210102.SAA22053@netcom.netcom.com> One method of protest against License Plate invasion of privacy is to simply not use license plates. When I bought my car six years ago the front license plate was never drilled for license plate holes, so I simply took off the rear plate too, and in six months I only got two tickets for it, one for twenty dollars in Walnut Creek which I only had to pay, not needing to "fix the defect," and another on the Richmond Bridge, costing seventy six dollars because it was a fix it ticket which I didn't want to fix, and pulled over another time with only a warning. Not bad at all for California, has any one else practised this form of protest? I had to put the rear plate back on though, because I acquired a drinking problem and I didn't want to get busted for drunk driving. Now that I'm sober, and with worse threats concerning license plates, it's time to pull off that rear plate again! Doing it tonight, join me! -- Skip, OBC From qut at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 21:51:23 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:51:23 +0800 Subject: AZ DMV: Citizenship to Drive? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960820172648.00cf4364@iu.net> Message-ID: <199608210002.RAA09034@netcom.netcom.com> ON > > At 07:37 AM 8/20/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Your papers, please? > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:04:07 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Bob Witanek > >To: Recipients of pol-abuse > >Subject: AZ DMV: Citizenship to Drive? > > > >Posted: gdiazj at IMAP1.ASU.EDU > > > >Today the Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles began requiring > >proof of citizenship before issuing a drivers license or a state > >identification. This policy was established by HB 2154 which passed > >this last session (this one slipped passed me). > > > >I am helping organize people in Arizona to oppose this. Please > >send your information ASAP, we need you your help. > > > >VIVA LA RAZA > >George Diaz, Jr. > >gdiazj at imap1.asu.edu > >GDIAZJ at aol.com > >gdiaz at ci.phoenix.az.us > > > Not quite sure what this has to do with crypto, but here goes: > > As with the recent federal legislation denying soc sec benefits to LEGAL > aliens who are required by law to pay into the system and can by law be > required to serve in the US armed forces, this appears to my untrained eye > to be yet another case of isolationist paranoia...I am sure this one > violates international agreements that the US has made concerning reciprocal > accodomations as far as driving is concerned. > > I used to be a tax-paying soc sec paying legal alien, but I got so fed up > with head-in-the-dirt hicks who thought you had to be a citizen to breathe > the prairie dust that I became a citizen for an easier life (and I mean some > of these ignorant fools were sons of immigrants who voted agianst the US > fighting Hitler!!!!). > > Because I still talk with something of a foreign accent I still get > uneducated idiots, who couldn't pass the test they make foreigners take, > lecturing me on what I cannot do because I am a foreigner. The only thing I > can't do is run for President. > > I despair of backwater state legislators, I really do. What to do about this > particular problem? Check out the rules on International drivers licenses. I > know can drive on them for a year...If you are not allowed a drivers license > because you are an alien, maybe you don't need their stinking licenses. Absolutely correct, America is extremely hostile to anyone who isn't an impoverished white, ie, a redneck. You be sure and tell all your friends that, especially your African and Asian friends, advising them to stay away from the devil's continent as if their life depends on it. From frantz at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 21:59:34 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:59:34 +0800 Subject: "Utilization Review" Message-ID: <199608210220.TAA19927@netcom8.netcom.com> At 7:01 PM 8/20/96 -0400, Alan Horowitz wrote: >If you want to convince the masses - or even fashion elites such as myself >- to forego recourse to voluntary risk sharing.... you have your work cut >out for you. The insurance companies have every reason to perform "Utilization Reviews", since only they have incentive to contain costs. Our medical plans tend to insure for routine medical care and as a result, give the insurance companies the data about our routine care. If they only paid for catastrophic illness and accident care, they would only have reason to have data on that care. Do you want to share the risk of routine medical care? Or do you just want to share the risk of catastrophic illnesses and accidents? Or do you want to keep it all private. What you pay for, you can keep private. What they pay for, they can review. Your choice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 20 22:05:31 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:05:31 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <199608210407.EAA00568@fountainhead.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of spamming > here? Is spamming free speech? Yes. So is mailbombing the motherfucker, or more productively, virtually picketing his ISP until they kick him off for net abuse. Ethically? We don't talk ethics much here, but I'd say it's highly unethical to abuse a service paid for by the pooled resources of many. -rich From dcrocker at brandenburg.com Tue Aug 20 22:16:10 1996 From: dcrocker at brandenburg.com (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:16:10 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level In-Reply-To: <199608201529.LAA01469@goffette.research.megasoft.com> Message-ID: At 8:29 AM -0700 8/20/96, C Matthew Curtin wrote: > 2. Waiting for a cryptographic transport layer network protocol > (such as what is being proposed in draft-ietf-tls-ssh-00), > allowing SMTP to remain untouched, and only requiring MTAs to > add support for the new network protocol. > >I like the second approach better, because it allows more problems to >be solved with one move, and it would be easier to add crypto This presumes that everyone uses Internet protocols for transport. That is a marginal assumption, in today's world. Probably ok for long term, though. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker +1 408 246 8253 Brandenburg Consulting fax: +1 408 249 6205 675 Spruce Dr. dcrocker at brandenburg.com Sunnyvale CA 94086 USA http://www.brandenburg.com Internet Mail Consortium http://www.imc.org, info at imc.org From rich at c2.org Tue Aug 20 22:26:03 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:26:03 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Brad Dolan wrote: > Goofy guy agrees with Morris about X, therefore Morris' well-documented > claims about X and Y are false? Lots of footnotes to "confidential interview" do not make a valid study. How many "well-documented" studies of the Kennedy assassination and UFO sightings have you read? I followed this wild goose chase to exhaustion back in 1986-7. I've forgotten most of it, but I'm sure I have some notes and maybe some tapes lying around. Yes, some contras and some sandinistas and some martistas and *lots* of the senderos and M-19 ran drugs. That's what happens when you criminalize a political movement -- political figures become criminals in order to survive. (When the crime they're involved is simply free trade in criminalized agricultural products, it just adds another layer of irony.) There's a kernel of truth and plausibility to most conspiracy theories, including this one. (It's a big mistake to say *all* conspiracy theories.) However, the money involved was rather small, the process was basically skew to politics (both sides did it all), and I have never been convinced that the CIA -- or even North's coterie in the NSC, which as you know ran a number of ops that the CIA would never have gone for -- was in on it. (ObConspiracy: H. Ross Perot actually was involved in funneling money to the contras. He was rather open and proud of it. Is he mentioned in Morris's book?) -rich From shamrock at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 22:34:22 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:34:22 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Airport legal question Message-ID: I know that it is a violation of federal law to joke about explosives at the X-ray machine. Would an "I love Explosives" sticker on carry-on luggage violate any laws? TIA, From dsmith at prairienet.org Tue Aug 20 22:39:51 1996 From: dsmith at prairienet.org (David E. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:39:51 +0800 Subject: your mail Message-ID: <199608202137.QAA14069@bluestem.prairienet.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: DMiskell at envirolink.org, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 20 16:41:01 1996 > So, how do you UNDO the encryptation? Gee, no wonder it's uncrackable. > > Daniel. > > > It may very well be the ultimate one-way hash. dave - ---- David E. Smith POB 324 Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702 dsmith at prairienet.org http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith send mail of 'send pgp-key' subject for my PGP public key "Reality is the original Rorshach" -- Principia Discordia -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Automagically signed with Pronto Secure for Windows. iQEVAwUBMhow8DVTwUKWHSsJAQFm+wf+I7+0gcjYxrD0du/1I6Ufz/0jctIA6xJt 8ePhjW6X6rIzGPshzGapQ4dOpUZTa+dtsnvUccg7Fn4sBv71lELnGobNMvnSImzA C7OT+25giz3XGsfKTX6M0EruV4EkwfutBGp129FuU6blXNnXpFTtvy0q4PbGqE0B mti6n5/JQw2I3GVP72duvPKZ9Fac34Hr7e8OA1YYBLgTa0vIAl4F98x2O6CNjhfF Y+/qbzZov1ltl2QggfPc2juxWvTV4trW8tLOi5TddiS/avHOHoMebe2FjAu6MATt giO+HDT+AIvE4NZ+EZAct6VCz8HIkhRfJmgJBK9wQkwOvRkV4ZqnPQ== =uVag -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Aug 20 22:46:44 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:46:44 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608210340.UAA06334@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 20 Aug 96, 18:09, Rich Graves wrote: > On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > > > I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of > > spamming here? Is spamming free speech? > > Yes. > > So is mailbombing the motherfucker, or more productively, virtually > picketing his ISP until they kick him off for net abuse That is the kind of self righteous crap that gives me the creeps!!! > > Ethically? We don't talk ethics much here, but I'd say it's highly > unethical to abuse a service paid for by the pooled resources of > many. I pay for my net access. I pay for my Sunday paper, it's full of ads too!! Ethics??? Let's rat out on the EVIL spammers!! Let's turn them into thier ISP!!! That's a load of CRAP!!!! Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 20 22:49:52 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:49:52 +0800 Subject: phoneco vs X-phone Message-ID: <199608202048.NAA16694@mail.pacifier.com> At 11:00 AM 8/20/96 -0700, Brian D Williams wrote: > >Jim bell writes: > >>What do you mean, "doesn't really fit the facts"?!? What part of >>it was incorrect? Fiber-optic _is_ commonly used in inter-office >>trunks, right? It doesn't wear out, right? Higher usage doesn't >>entail greater costs, right? The capacity, while not strictly >>infinite, is high enough so expanded usage doesn't strain most >>links, right? Finally, modern phone switches have sufficient >>connect capacity so that they can handle usage which would have >>been considered "unusual" by yesteryear's standards. All >>of this points to an obvious conclusion: Telephone companies do >>not, in general, have increased costs as a consequence of >>increased telephone usage. > >Fiber does not wear out per se, but it does need replacing, partly >from the inevitable contractor accidents (landscapers) and >occasional entropic events. However, those events are generally uncorrelated with usage... > Mux cards and repeaters do go bad on a >regular basis, there is a correlation between usage and increased >maintenance, Well, technically that's true, but these devices are usually running continuously, not merely when a call is being made. In other words, more talk != more failures. For the most relevant (though minor) example that I can think of, consider the typical laser diode used to drive fiber optic cables. These devices have a finite wearout mechanism (as opposed to most IC's which generally do not wear out in normal usage), so they may be seen to have a limited lifetime. However, in use they are continuously transmitting data, even when portions of the channel are unoccupied, so they have a constant life regardless of individual phone usage. >and of course increased usage means increased electricity usage. This is an extraordinarily minor effect, as you might imagine. >One point that seems to be missed here is the very high cost of >compliance with government regulations. If the internet phone >people have to comply with the same regulations it will drive up >their costs dramatically, and if the regulations are lifted for >all, the RBOC's think they can out compete them. If that is the main difference in costs, then we should abandon those regs. Another big cost is billing, which could be eliminated if usage were unmetered. In any case, I tend to agree: Make these changes, eliminate the LD/local subsidy, and the LD companies would have no problem (at least domestically) competing against Internet phone. (International may be a different story, because foreign telcos tend to be owned by countries.) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From declan at eff.org Tue Aug 20 22:49:57 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:49:57 +0800 Subject: Justice Department stalls for time in CDA lawsuit, from HotWired Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 20:12:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Justice Department stalls for time in CDA lawsuit, from HotWired [Read the complete column at the URL below... -Declan] http://www.hotwired.com/netizen/ HotWired, The Netizen 21 August 1996 DOJ Dodge by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) Washington, DC, 20 August The US Department of Justice is stalling for time. The Supreme Court yesterday granted the government an extra month to submit the next phase of its Communications Decency Act appeal, allowing the DOJ a few more weeks to coordinate the original ACLU lawsuit with a lesser-known suit filed by Joe Shea, editor of the American Reporter. [...] But in truth, the DOJ shouldn't need any more time to file this paperwork. The "jurisdictional statement" the department's been working on for seven weeks - and now has until 29 September to submit - must argue only that there's a substantial constitutional issue at stake in the CDA lawsuit, something transcendently obvious to anyone who hasn't been napping through the 14 months since Time magazine's cyberporn cover hit the newsstands. [...] While this is likely just normal legal skirmishing in a battle where the DOJ attorneys have few useful weapons and already have suffered one crushing defeat, the government's five-page application for an extension of time hints at why a delay would be to their advantage. [...] In other words, the CDA might be unconstitutional now, but _constitutional_ some months from now - depending on how labelling and blocking technologies such as PICS and SurfWatch evolve. Keeping kids out might have been a royal pain when the judges heard the case in March 1996, but by March 1997 it might amount to no more than the minor irritation of a constitutional hangnail. David Sobel, a lawyer for the Electronic Privacy Information Center and co-counsel on this case, said: "They could make the argument in the Supreme Court that the court in Philadelphia hasn't really completed its work on the case, and all that is entered is a preliminary injunction. They could argue that this case should go back to Philadelphia for further proceedings, since they're now prepared to answer the court's questions about what kind of technology may be coming down the pike." Whatever the reason for the DOJ's delay - summer bureaucratic slothfulness or malicious conniving - one thing is certain: we have the rest of the year to enjoy the government's lawyer tricks. ### From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Aug 20 22:50:36 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:50:36 +0800 Subject: License Plates Message-ID: <199608210316.UAA05855@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 20 Aug 96, 18:02, Skip wrote: > and with worse threats concerning license plates, it's time to pull > off that rear plate again! Doing it tonight, join me! ALL RIGHT Skip!!! Personal protest is the way to go. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From zachb at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 22:53:13 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:53:13 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <960820183645_506047852@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > Rush Limbaugh reports: > > That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". > > The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of us) > were mentioned that they deemed threatening. > > Ahhh, good to live in a free country.... > A more detailed version of this story was posted on talk.politics.guns last week. I could dig it up and post it if anyones interested. --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Tue Aug 20 22:55:36 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:55:36 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 18 Aug 1996 Message-ID: <01I8ILKTLJ809JDB7O@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"educom at educom.unc.edu" 18-AUG-1996 23:56:45.22 >***************************************************************** >Edupage, 18 August 1996. Edupage, a summary of news about information >technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, >a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities >seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. >***************************************************************** Speaking of Net-in-Orbit (while distributed datahavens have their points, sometimes you'd prefer not to have a given chunk of data on your hard drive - even encrypted with a passphrase), what's the physical setup for rewriteable optical drives? Are there any methods of doing those that will work OK in orbit? >ECHOSTAR TO DELIVER DATA, TOO >EchoStar Communications has successfully completed a public test of the >technology it will use in cooperation with Intel Corp. and Comstream to >deliver data via satellite to subscribers. Transmission rates could be >several megabits per second, says EchoStar's director of program management, >who adds that the opportunity to download Web content at higher speeds is >attractive to people hampered by slow phone lines. "If the download could >be made quickly and it could be stashed on their hard drive, that might be >something they'd be interested in," he says. In the recent test, >subscribers who use EchoStar's system to receive video and audio content >were given cards to install in their PCs, enabling them to receive data as >well. (Broadcasting & Cable 12 Aug 96 p86) [...] >Edupage is written by John Gehl & Suzanne Douglas >. Voice: 404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057. >Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the >University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. >*************************************************************** >Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: >send mail to: listproc at educom.unc.edu with the message: subscribe edupage >Charles Baudelaire (if your name is Charles Baudelaire; otherwise, >substitute your own name). ... To cancel, send a message to: >listproc at educom.unc.edu with the message: unsubscribe edupage. (If you >have subscription problems, send mail to manager at educom.unc.edu.) From rmartin at aw.sgi.com Tue Aug 20 22:56:37 1996 From: rmartin at aw.sgi.com (Richard Martin) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:56:37 +0800 Subject: Pappieren, bitte! (and Taxes, National Debt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9608201647.ZM3539@glacius.tor.aw.sgi.com> On Aug 20, 12:18pm, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 5:38 PM 8/20/96, Stephen Cobb wrote: > >Very true...what I am saying is that, as far as my reading goes, LEGAL > >aliens are going to be required to pay social security "taxes" while not > >having any "entitlement" in return. They pay income taxes and get certain > >things, like law and order, in return. They will be paying soc sec money to > >the government without getting anything in return. > I think the "no driver's licenses to illegal aliens" makes a certain kind > of sense, though. (Not that I don't have some compassion for them, being an > open borders advocate.) If the State gives official documents to illegal > aliens, what's the point of their being classified as illegal aliens? Erm. Tim seems to be writing about how it doesn't make much sense to give driver's licenses to illegal aliens and Stephen is writing about how Arizona is planning to not give driver's licenses to legal aliens. Which would appear to be talking at crosspurposes. I'm a PLRA in the USA, so it does matter somewhat to me that i might be unable to get a driver's license in a country i could legally reside in because i'm not a citizen of that country. Especially if that country won't let me drive for extended periods of time on a driver's license issued elsewhere. If the State won't give me official documents (as a legal alien), what's the point of being classified as a legal alien? (Except more exciting interrogations every time i cross the border?) Tim's opinions on illegal immigrants, good, but don't really apply so much to PLRAs (who cannot vote, but can pay taxes and be drafted). [Which is, i think, what Stephen was writing about in the first place.] richard -- Richard Martin [not speaking for a|w] rmartin at aw.sgi.com http://reality.sgi.com/rmartin_aw/ Alias|Wavefront - Toronto Office [Co-op Software Developer, Games Team] NOTE: My email address as of August 23 1996 is g4frodo at cdf.utoronto.ca From nobody at huge.cajones.com Tue Aug 20 22:56:45 1996 From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:56:45 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site In-Reply-To: <199608202331.SAA25854@snoopy.vetmed.auburn.edu> Message-ID: <199608210335.UAA16038@fat.doobie.com> > Since we don't know how the intruders broke in, we can only speculate. I > can think of several scenarios where cryptographic techniques could help. > I can also think of several where they wouldn't. When you've only got 20 > seconds to explain to a non-technical audience, I don't think it's dishonest > to say that it might have prevented it. All webservers (except maybe Spinner?) are riddled with buffer overrun bugs and other similar security holes. If you run a webserver, you should basically assume that anyone who really wants a shell on your machine can get one. Grab your favorite webserver and grep for sprintf. Crypto? Get real. The lock on the door matters little when you've left the window wide open. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 20 22:58:28 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:58:28 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:13 PM -0400 8/20/96, Brad Dolan wrote: > p.s. Donna Rice has lately been running point for a regulate-the-internet > front group. I wouldn't put anything past her. Which reminds me of a story. First, however, a joke, which in hindsight taught me about the propagation of information across geodesic networks, that is, capital market trading rooms, long before I had ever heard of either Peter Huber or geodesic networks. To wit, Q: What did Donna Rice say to the press when they caught her leaving Gary Hart's house? A: She said she was taking a poll. <"Pole", get it? Hyuk!> The reason I remember this paragon of modern political humor is that I heard it no more the 30 minutes after the story broke on the AP wire machine in the Morgan Stanley branch where I was clerking at the time. I heard the joke from trading assistant, who in turn had heard it over the "hoot & holler" line which wired Morgan's various trading desks together with a bunch of permanently open-miked full-duplex speakerphones. The joke originated somewhere else, and was probably told to someone at Morgan's New York office over a direct "ring-down" line linking one company's trading desk to another. I thought at the time that someone should do a study of the velocity of information flow in the markets, using jokes as information proxies. I've since outgrown such foolishness, though I keep expecting to hear about someone's Ph.D thesis on the topic someday. :-). But, of course, that's not the story I *wanted* to tell. *This* one, of course, has absolutely no crypto relevance whatever... All these conspiracy theories about Donna Rice and George Bush got me to remember something. Brian Smith, who shot that famous Pulitzer-winning(!) picture of Gary Hart with Ms. Rice seated on his lap and the "Monkey Business" lifering in the background, was a friend of mine at Missouri. Clever boy, Brian was. When he graduated from the Missouri School of Journalism (Missouri's most famous, er, "professional" school [God help us all], with alums like Carl Rowan, and Dan Rather, and John Chancellor, etc.), he managed to produce, out from under his graduation robes, his entire motor-driven Nikon SLR outfit, complete with strobe apparatus, and took a series of pictures of himself graduating, right down to the handshake from Van Gorton Sauter, the President of CBS News. I always wondered what that masonic pyramid, with the eyeball on top, was doing tattooed on Brian's forehead. Now I know. Beware the Illuminati. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From rwright at adnetsol.com Tue Aug 20 23:01:53 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:01:53 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608210044.RAA02892@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 20 Aug 96, 16:23, Jim Gillogly wrote: > > Vipul Ved Prakash writes: > >I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of > >spamming here? Is spamming free speech? > > I oppose spamming because it's rude and inefficient, lowering the > S/N everywhere it happens. Market droids Market Droids???? As a salesman I take offence at this slur. > favor it because it's > cheap, and no matter how many people they piss off bigtime, they > make some sales. Even make sales to people who are pissed off at first... Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From liberty at gate.net Tue Aug 20 23:04:03 1996 From: liberty at gate.net (Jim Ray) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:04:03 +0800 Subject: [NOISE]CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) Message-ID: <199608210335.XAA87778@osceola.gate.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 20 23:34:46 1996 OK, Rich cites a loon, but the fact is that Southern Air Transport right here in Miami was in there early in the contraarms-coke trade. You don't make the real money in any transport business unless you can have full loads both ways. Also, the skills needed to land an overloaded airplane on an unimproved strip are different than those held by typical pilots, even very good, carrier-rated military pilots. Drugsmugglers had 'em, nobody else did, the CIA needed pilots with the skills to have their filthy little war. You can search the "major papers" libraries of West & Lexis for: "mena /p cocaine" and find all kinds of stuff. You can look into the case of John Hall's ranch in Costa Rica and find all kinds of stuff, too. The best experiment I've run across is to ask anyone (especially anyone under 30, for some reason) the following: "Do you think those planes came back empty?" When I do this, _I_ don't have to say the word "cocaine," they say it for me. Every time. It is a major, bipartisan, Watergate-style but bigger scandal, and the strange bedfellows in the media who were doing a halfway decent job of covering it [The Wall Street Journal and "High Times" magazine(!)] have fallen strangely silent on the subject as the election approaches. Hmmmmm. JMR Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy "'Filegate' is starting to make _Ed_ _Meese_ look ethical." -- me Defeat the Duopoly! Vote "NOTA," not Slick/Dull in November. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray Coming soon, the "Pennies For Perot" page. Keep billionaires off welfare! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhqD221lp8bpvW01AQF1SwP+JOEoKPgIeFD5EEMMj+psfRaAZHoA+yzC ntVGjl22ThuqwyUJbbhmNEEP2+/mcGd4D1AWvs2Q0yFwWRyQybGGlnTyXtNNVY8s rY4pHCtkUftOxD9oxpB7FSaN2giZzYohbd3bduet1kO6DoXRRHxFq8F/4rbAZbA/ WnRbDSfblUQ= =WDGI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From qut at netcom.com Tue Aug 20 23:26:11 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:26:11 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608210012.RAA11460@netcom.netcom.com> ON > > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > > > At 03:18 PM 8/19/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > > > You know, Amnesty > > > has some outstanding policies regarding accuracy, objectivity, and > > > universality. > > > > Such as their policy that disappearances in Cuba are only mentioned in > > a vague and euphemistic way somewhere in the fine print of the middle > > of their Cuban reports, whereas similar disappearances are shouted from > > the rooftops when they happen in right wing South American dictatorships? > > In a word, no. I wasn't talking about their policy to oppress the Easter > Bunny, either. > > I meant their policy of not taking sides, which in Latin America has often > meant that they have less of a left-wing bias than Human Rights Watch. They > do not describe people with loaded terms like "pro-democracy," "worker's > rights advocate," "freedom fighter," or "social justice activist." They say > "this person is in prison for political reasons," and leave it at that. > Usually, they don't even identify the reasons -- just the abuse of state > power. > > I've always favored a carefully tailored formalistic approach to human > rights and free speech issues, without taking sides on the underlying issues > of political controversy. Amnesty and the ACLU generally follow this > approach. When they have deviated from that approach to make sweeping > statements not tied to *individual* human rights, as Amnesty's general > opposition to apartheid and the ACLU's guarded support for majority-minority > gerrymandering, I have opposed them. > > Happily, most of the time, they stay above the fray, which I believe is the > only appropriate role for a "human rights organization." I have no objection > to anti-communist, anti-fascist, or whatever organizations, but I don't > think they should bill themselves as human rights organizations. The > Wiesenthal Center to be a "human rights organization"; it's an anti-fascist > organization, which does some good, some bad, but always focused on one > issue. Human Rights Watch didn't start out as a "human rights organization"; > it started out as an anti-communist organization. They have since broadened > their scope and international coverage considerably, but their history of > making substantitive statements on larger political questions remains. > Ironically, now they tend to show a leftist bias. Liar, you support imprisoning and deporting people based purely on their political ideas, such as the bile your mouth puked up all over the net this whole year. Re: Ernst Z�ndel and his years of imprisonment by a court for merely expressing his racist ideas, racist political ideas being strictly illegal in Canada, hell everywhere in the so called white world except for the USA, so far. -- National socialism is the opposite of everything today. From Kevin.L.Prigge-2 at tc.umn.edu Tue Aug 20 23:29:15 1996 From: Kevin.L.Prigge-2 at tc.umn.edu (Kevin L Prigge) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:29:15 +0800 Subject: Key Length Correlation In-Reply-To: <9608201302.aa18129@deepthought.armory.com> Message-ID: <321a391f26cd002@noc.tc.umn.edu> Jeff Davis said: > I've read Blaze and diffie's paper on Semetric Key Length. I'm currious > how semetric key length correlates to public key cryptography length. Does > public key length have to be much longer, (assuming the algorithms are strong), > to provide the same level of security as a shorter semetric key? TIA > -- It's been calculated that in the case of PGP, to equal the work factor to brute force the 128 bit IDEA key would require a RSA key > 3000 bits. Someone probably has a reference. -- Kevin L. Prigge | "I rarely saw people sitting at Systems Software Programmer | computers producing real code Internet Enterprise - OIT | wearing ties." - Philippe Kahn University of Minnesota | (speech at Software Development '90) From snow at smoke.suba.com Tue Aug 20 23:39:00 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:39:00 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats (getting off topic) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960820173846.007137e4@iu.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Stephen Cobb wrote: > At 05:32 PM 8/19/96 -0400, you wrote: > "we killed the natives so this land is our land and the rest of you f@*k-off" That is the way Civilization usually works. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From vipul at pobox.com Tue Aug 20 23:48:27 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:48:27 +0800 Subject: Phoneco vs X-Phone In-Reply-To: <199608192246.PAA08982@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <199608210402.EAA00558@fountainhead.net> > What do you mean, "doesn't really fit the facts"?!? What part of it was > incorrect? Fiber-optic _is_ commonly used in inter-office trunks, right? > It doesn't wear out, right? Higher usage doesn't entail greater costs, > right? The capacity, while not strictly infinite, is high enough so > expanded usage doesn't strain most links, right? Finally, modern phone > switches have sufficient connect capacity so that they can handle usage > which would have been considered "unusual" by yesteryear's standards. All > of this points to an obvious conclusion: Telephone companies do not, in > general, have increased costs as a consequence of increased telephone usage. > > Here's what I think is _really_ going on: You have decided that you think > the costs of the telephone system should be apportioned by usage EVEN IF > higher usage is no more costly to provide. That's why you don't want to > disprove my claims. You're afraid that you'll have to say, "Yes, you're > right Jim, but I _still_ think billing should be porportional to use." No ulterior motives, Jim. Cool Down :) Now lets see, you say we have enough capacity out there, alright, but then why is everyone raving about "a slow internet". We all know in IT 640K is never enough, niether is 640Mb. At some point in time, new cables _have_ to be laid. Moreover you seem to be considering a static growth rate, but we all know the Internet is nothing short of a big-bang. I am trying to debate a model rather than numbers and in which case its important to to consider a long-term scenario. This reminds me of a survey on a "proposed Rural Telecom Network" back in India, which finally decided that ROI will not justify the project even in 20 years time. > Some of whom are probably unnecessary. Interestingly enough, the rumor is > that half the costs for LD are in billing and customer service. Most of > these costs would disappear if LD was unmetered. > > > > >> >But you miss my point, if a phoneco is not getting a penny for its long > >> distanceservices (which subsidise the flat rate local calls) then the > choice would be to close down. Which would be a severe attack to the > local internet usage. > >> > >> That's an entirely unsupported claim. Nobody claims that telephone usage > >> (term used generically) is on the way out. "Closing down" is only going to > >> happen if local phonecos cease to be able to provide a service that people > >> are willing to pay for. > > > >Exactly! Once "X-Phone" has its servers in US Cities, and its charging 10 > cents > >a minute for long distance calls, I don't see if the phonecos would be able > to provide any service that people are willing to pay for, I mean they won't > >be able to provide matching lucrative rates. > > I am confident that local phonecos can remain competitive even against > "free" Internet telephone service. What they need to do is simple: > Entirely remove the LD/local subsidy, remove metering on LD (as well as > local), bill yearly for far lower costs, etc. Once this is done, LD will be > "free", at least on a marginal basis, so no customer will have any > motivation to move to "Internet telephone" service. > > > >You mean to say that, X-Phone will take advantage of the phoneco and mint > >money for a minimal investment, whereas the phoneco who spent billions on the > >infrastructure will be just whistle down the road, and let the X-Phone > >indulge in its own cyberdo. > > In the US, the current telephone company infrastructure is ALREADY PAID FOR. > It was paid for by over-inflated rates during a monopolized era. If > anything, the locals have an "unfair advantage" over the rest of the > companies: Only they have a copper pair into every home. Alright, once again I try to show what exactly I am pointing at. Alice uses the phone 23 hrs a day, Bob uses 10 mins, both get their connections from ABCTel. The bandwidth with ABCTel saturates and it has to buy more bandwidth (if ABCTel is a babybel, it will be buying it from a BigBell, and whether or not bandwidth exists is quite besides the point here) Its because of subscribers like Alice ABCTel is buying more bandwidth, and the flat rate revenues generated by addition of a couple of members won't justify the new bandwidth. Flat rates are based on the assumption that a subscriber will use the service for X amount of time. Since the phoneco has no control over user behaviour, more that reasonable number of Alice-type clients will screw up the phonecos economics. With explosion of Internet, people have found a new way of using their phone line, and all these companies are already in trouble. To top all that we are loudly professing the Internet (ultra-low-cost) solutions to LD Calls with phoneco. - Vipul vipul at pobox.com From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 20 23:53:41 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:53:41 +0800 Subject: Phoneco vs X-Phone Message-ID: <199608210046.RAA01785@mail.pacifier.com> At 04:02 AM 8/21/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >Now lets see, you say we have enough capacity out there, alright, but then >why is everyone raving about "a slow internet". We all know in IT 640K >is never enough, niether is 640Mb. At some point in time, new cables >_have_ to be laid. Moreover you seem to be considering a static growth rate, >but we all know the Internet is nothing short of a big-bang. > >I am trying to debate a model rather than numbers and in which case its >important to to consider a long-term scenario. Well, okay, here's some numbers: First, I've recently found out that in large quantities, it costs 10 cents per meter for bare fiber. Assume 30 cents per meter per fiber for cabled fiber, or about $10 (US) per meter for 36-fiber cable. Each fiber pair should be able to handle approximately 1 million conversations at current data rates, or a total of 18 million conversations for that 18-pair cable, or 9.5 trillion conversation-minutes. Multiply this cost by 10 for right of way, trenching, repeaters, and other auxiliary hardware, or $100 per meter. This is probably just a ballpark estimate, but... Let's assume that the average phone call goes through 5000 kilometers of fiber, which is approximately the width of the US. (yes, I realize this is vastly over-inflated. But my estimate is attempting to be conservative, on the "safe" side.) A cable the width of the US costs $500 million. Assume that if it is to pay for itself, it must provide gross revenue of at least this amount to make a profit. (It would probably be more accurate to say that the cable needs to actually profit by 10% of its value per year. If it grossed 100% of its value, per year, then that would provide up to $450 million per year in maintenance and other costs per year, and still be a profit of 10%. But again, I'm trying to be CONSERVATIVE in how I account for costs.) Assume an average of 1/10th of its capacity is used, or 950 billion conversation-minutes. Do the division, dividing $500 million by 95 billion, and this works out to 1/20 of a penny per conversation-minute. At this point, your jaw should drop. Despite my dramatically over-inflated cost estimates for the fiber and installation and maintenance, and vastly underestimated utilization, I've still managed to justify only 1/20 penny per minute of cost. >This reminds me of a survey on a "proposed Rural Telecom Network" back in >India, which finally decided that ROI will not justify the project >even in 20 years time. I've read that estimates show that it would probably be cheaper to provide cellular-telephone service in China to everyone than to wire the country up with copper lines. This isn't particularly surprising. Cell-phones solve the "last few hundred yards/mile or two" problem quite well. Since nearly all of the actual connections in a copperline telephone system are switch-to-individual-phone lines, going cellular saves a bundle of installation costs. >> In the US, the current telephone company infrastructure is ALREADY PAID FOR. >> It was paid for by over-inflated rates during a monopolized era. If >> anything, the locals have an "unfair advantage" over the rest of the >> companies: Only they have a copper pair into every home. > >Alright, once again I try to show what exactly I am pointing at. Alice uses >the phone 23 hrs a day, Bob uses 10 mins, both get their connections >from ABCTel. The bandwidth with ABCTel saturates and it has to buy more >bandwidth (if ABCTel is a babybel, it will be buying it from a BigBell, >and whether or not bandwidth exists is quite besides the point here) >Its because of subscribers like Alice ABCTel is buying more bandwidth, >and the flat rate revenues generated by addition of a couple of members won't >justify the new bandwidth. >Flat rates are based on the assumption that a subscriber will use the service >for X amount of time. Since the phoneco has no control over user behaviour, >more that reasonable number of Alice-type clients will screw up the phonecos >economics. Re-read my estimate, above. Apparently, POTS-level "bandwidth" in a national fiber network should "cost" about 1/20 cent per minute, or maybe even less than that. Your commentary just above shows that you are assuming a far greater cost. For example, even your "23-hours-per-day" exaggeration should only cost 23x60x$0.0005, or $0.69 per day, or $21 per month. High, but that usage is unrealistic, of course. However, assuming one eighth of this usage, or 3 hours per day, that would be a daily cost of approximately $0.08, or about $2.75 per month. Also, you need to remember that if the telephone usage (in for example, the US) was so high as to get a substantial fraction of the population on the phone, LD, for as long as 12 hours per day, the average utilization of the fiber cable I've projected would rise from the highly-conservative figure of 10%, up to perhaps 25% or so. Since this increased usage wouldn't increase the cost of the cable itself or the installation or maintenance, the corresponding cost estimate would drop from 0.0005 dollars per minute to 40% of this or so, which is about $0.0002 per minute. At that rate, a "12 hours per day" usage would cost only $4.32 per month, which is well in line with current phone plans. But again, remember that most of these "costs" are really merely the result of allocating some proportion of an existing, fixed cost. Make that cost small enough (as fiber optics does) and spread it over enough users, and it becomes ignorable. >With explosion of Internet, people have found a new way of using their phone >line, and all these companies are already in trouble. To top all that we >are loudly professing the Internet (ultra-low-cost) solutions to LD Calls >with phoneco. I don't see any problem at all! You're just (falsely) assuming that LD should, somehow, be more expensive than local calls. Maybe it should be VERY SLIGHTLY more expensive, but LD fiber is basically a one-time investment with little maintenance costs. In order to determine how much more expensive LD should be over local, all you should have to do is figure out how much the additional equipment and fiber costs, and then consult an telephone engineer to figure out usage rates, and then go to an economist who can tell you how many more dollars you're going to have to charge. (Based on typical ROI tables,etc.) I've done enough of the numbers already to convince me that the amount is so tiny as to be ignorable. The fact is, LD phone is a business that, like it or not, is going to shrink drastically _in_terms_of_dollars_, simply because the cost of that service will likewise, go down. That's life. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From cbarnett at eciad.bc.ca Wed Aug 21 00:09:59 1996 From: cbarnett at eciad.bc.ca (grad 96) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:09:59 +0800 Subject: raygun shielding Message-ID: not being an authority on the uses of X-Ray technology, I have no idea how useful tinfoil or gold lamme would be for shielding. As a professional photographer, I do know that one can purchase lead lied bags to protectect one's film from being ruined by the X-Ray machines at the airport. They do not work. When the customs people come to an object in your bag that they can not see into, they turn up the power until they can. I have ruined film and customs officer testimony to back this up, that's why I have them do a visual inspection of my film. If you have a lot, they don't look very hard, which has it's own bundle of opportunity right there. Not that I am advocating that kind of behavior. clint barnett lord of the cosmos emily carr institute From snow at smoke.suba.com Wed Aug 21 00:12:46 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:12:46 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote: > I wish they'd get back in the business, but add an overt poison to the > product. > Clean out the shit from the cities. Long live Darwinism. Really? What are you drinking right now? Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us Wed Aug 21 00:16:50 1996 From: ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us (P. J. Ponder) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:16:50 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: keywords: Crypto-policy, digital signatures, Anti-Horsemen, secure-DNS, DOJ-web-prank, Ayn Rand, hydrazine Will Day responed to Frank Stuart's cogent and insightful posting on the DOJ hack and a possibility of using the tawdry event to some advantage.... If you missed Frank Stuart's original message, much of it is in Will Day's response. I have made some tedious reformatting here with prepended 'Day' and 'FS' marks to separate the two and clipped some ephemeral lines. Will Day signed his message with Pretty Good Privacy, but I clipped the signature from that off, also, having already hosed it up with my editing of line lengths, &c., so that you couldn't check it anyway, even if you wanted to. The gist of Will Day's question is how can an argument be made that supports the greater availability of strong crypto from the fact that someone swapped spoofed-up (and inane) pages for the DOJ's own on the DOJ's own web site? Let's start by trying to imagine a future world of geodesic networks based on robust strong protocols that are ubiquitous, easy to use, and embedded in the chips of even the most mundane devices. In this world, authentication of data, such as web pages, is required (or at least it could be) for every packet we receive. For data retrieved from remote sites we may require multiple signatures, and certificates signed by someone in whom we have placed a high reputation value. When (or if) freely available legal authentication technology becomes ubiquitous and transparent, we will be able to use it for even low risk, trivial, applications - like remote controls for televisions. We sure as hell won't have to stay up at night worrying that some punk is going to change any of the bits on our web server and that such changes might go undetected by our code-signed auto-gunsel. We are a long way from crypto-Chaumian-utopia, and it appears as though the US federal government wants to make it harder for us to get there. (As an aside, I think the Clinton administration gets more of the blame for this than they should, since it was entrenched policy before they got out of Arkansas. I think the roots of Clipper and GAK are back in Reagan's stint, about the time of NSDD 145. But then, the current leaders aren't doing much to develop meaningful *public* cryptography policy, so they have to take the heat now.) Strong crypto helps people protect what is theirs. That is part of what Frank Stuart is saying, and he's right. That is a good point, and it deserves some attention. Strong crypto can help big powerful organizations like the DOJ, and it can help regular folks, too. Frank Stuart's next point is a beauty - at least the DOJ site that was attacked didn't have copies of everyone's secret keys stored on it. We all may know that even if GAK were ever passed, no one would be stupid enough to store the keys on a web server sitting out on the big bad Internet, but the cleverness of this spin-vector is that it raises the issue of GAK-riskiness in the context of DOJ's computer security. The last point is that another law on the books isn't needed, and wouldn't be effective anyway. I have gone on way too long already, but to sum up, the DOJ being abused may serve to help the cause, if the proper angle can be seen - and Frank Stuart is off to a good start. The specific answer to Will Day's question, which is a good one - how does crytpo protect your poor little Linux box in the corner that serves up web pages? - is left up to the student as an exercise. -- Day>A short time ago, at a computer terminal far, far away, Frank Stuart Day>wrote: FS> however, I think those in a position to do so should start with FS> the spin control. Some suggestions: FS> FS> The fact that even the U.S. Justice Department is unable to FS> adequately protect it's own site from intruders underscores the FS> need for widely-available strong encryption. FS> FS> While this is certainly a major embarrassment for the Justice FS> Department, at least the mandatory "key escrow" program the Clinton FS> administration is insisting upon has not yet been implemented; FS> no private citizens' data appears to have been compromised this time. FS> FS> It's doubtful that a new law or government bureaucracy would have FS> prevented this from happening but it's entirely possible that tools FS> such as strong encryption could have. It's ironic that the U.S. FS> Government is focusing on the former while fighting use of the latter. Day> I understand how it affects their claim for the security of escrowed Day> keys, but I'm afraid I don't follow the other argument. How would Day> the wide availability of strong encryption have helped prevent the Day> breakin? How would encryption in general prevent breakins? I'd Day> love to use this as an argument for strong encryption, but I Day> don't see how it really applies. From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 21 00:18:37 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:18:37 +0800 Subject: phoneco vs x-phones Message-ID: <199608210437.VAA16416@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:21 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Brian D Williams wrote: > >Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own, I do not speak for >Ameritech or it's alliance partners. >Jim Bell replies: > >>If that is the main difference in costs, then we should abandon >>those regs. Another big cost is billing, which could be eliminated >>if usage were unmetered. In any case, I tend to agree: Make >>these changes, eliminate the LD/local subsidy, and the LD >>companies would have no problem (at least domestically) competing >>against Internet phone. (International may be a different story, >>because foreign telcos tend to be owned by countries.) > >Yes compliance costs are a sore subject. Billing costs are actually >very cheap,(the mainframes are on the floor above me) the >difference between sending a metered bill or a flat rate bill is >tiny. Really tiny (NDA). The local/long distance subsidy was >eliminated at breakup, but long distance companies do have to pay >to use local networks, "the king is dead, long live the king!"??? The long distance companies are not "using local networks," your customers are...to connect to those long distance companies. And any payments LD companies make to you are, indeed, a subsidy. Tell me, how much is this _subsidy_, exactly? BTW, in case you doubt this assessment, let's do a fair comparison, shall we? Let's suppose, for the moment, that the amount of the subsidy is 3 cents per minute. (a figure I heard around here, recently.) As an alternative, the phone company would presumably be entitled to be served by phone lines, at say $30 per month or so, through which their customers reach them. $30 per month is $1 per day or 4 cents per hour or about 0.07 cents per minute. 3 cents doesn't equal 0.07 cents, now does it?!? Tell me again how "the local/long distance subsidy was eliminated at breakup." Tell me another one, daddy... >but as competition heats up these rates are >dropping and new players (competitors) join the table, Or they can >build their own. ;) How has this remaining SUBSIDY dropped over time, assuming it has? When is it scheduled to drop to zero? >One of the fun turns of events might be that the threat of x-phones >might lead the RBOC's to actually turn into an ISP's! We could pull >this off at amazing speed. (if you can't beat them, join them!) We >are after all one of the four major nodes of the Internet...... First, you need to figure out how to supply ISDN for a REASONABLE charge, like "no extra charge!" to customers. It's been over 16 years after I first heard of ISDN. At the time, it seemed like a wonderful idea...against the 300 baud modems then in use. Against modern 31K modems that you only have to pay for...ONCE...ISDN seems mighty lame. Face it, ISDN used to be a good idea. But it's just barely shown up the moment it's hit the end of its marketing window. ISDN will have a marketing lifetime for maybe a couple of more years, and only then because you can't put more bits through a 3.4 khz passband. Not to mention all the bullshit propaganda that claimed that with ISDN, you wouldn't have to buy any modems. Well, maybe that's just because they didn't CALL them modems, but they charged way more for an essentially indistinguishable function. Can you say, "Fraud"? I knew you could! Okay, go ahead, charge a little extra for ISDN. How much more? Well, let's see: 31K modems sell for $99. ISDN is four times faster, so let's say it's worth four times more, or $400. Amortized over 10 years, that's about $3.60 per month. Fair enough? Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From furballs at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 00:29:05 1996 From: furballs at netcom.com (Paul S. Penrod) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:29:05 +0800 Subject: Taxes on Internet access prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 5:54 PM 8/20/96, Mike McNally wrote: > > >Sure, but clearly that's not exclusively the case. (Amazingly enough > >to some might be the fact that my for-work e-mail volume far exceeds > >my not-for-work volume.) Hopefully I haven't brought too much shame > >to my employer. > > > >In any case, with the IRS it's often less a matter of common sense > >than what they happen to decide is The Law. Witness the changes in > >laws about what constitutes a "home office". Currently, if you're > >(let's say) a freelance plumber who maintains a legitimate office > ... > > Caveat: I'm not a defender of income taxes, of course. Nor am I a defender > of the IRS. > > However, on the "home office" situation, most of the examples I encounter, > in talking to friends, are clearly scams to save a thousand bucks (or less) > on their tax returns. Most of my friends who try to deduct a room in their > house because they've put their computer there are clearly not using "20%" > or "25%" or whatever of their house as a business. > > For those who really do actually use a room in their home for building > things, for meeting with clients, for operating a home business of some > sort, then I think the IRS will have no problems allowing it. (If the > subject even comes up, in an audit. There are some reports that attempting > to declare a home office increases ones chances of being audited....) > > As the saying goes, consult a competent expert. A few books detail the > expected amount of work that must be done in a "home office," and whether > one is likely to qualify. As one who has regularly maintained a home office for many years, there are a couple of points on the above issue that should be made. First, the stories about increased audits are true. This is one of the "red flag" items on Schedule C that the IRS looks for. If the types and amount of deductions taken for the space utilized evens smells like there is possible overlap with the interest deduction for the mortgage, it gets kicked out for review. This does not mean you get a letter or a phone call, but none the less, the more interest there is in the return the greater the chances for a tango downtown. Schedule C has been a target for many years(especially since HB 1706) went to law concerning contract employee status vs consulting and the famous 20 point list et al. I had a 3 hour conversation with a regional supervisor of the IRS about this list and the impossiblity of any business (even one the size of IBM) and/or person qualifying as a contractor/consultant on all 20 points. He informed my unoffically that the litmus test centers around a majority of the conditions being satisfied of which one of the important ones is a home office, else a consultant is (for tax purposes) a contract employee and gets raped in both directions. You can't deduct for business expenses because you are technically an employee of the client, plus you have to pay the higher rate of self employment (15.16% or some such non-sense). Fun... For the plumber that works "offsite" as well as the consultant, the home office is a legitimate deduction so long as they can prove that they set their own schedule and hours, have more than one "client", and generally operate as a "business". This usually means registering the business address at the residence, business license, checks, etc. and setting aside the workspace necessary to accomplish the adminstrative tasks to keep the business running. Taking a picture of the office helps alot, if there are questions about the legitimacy. As for the closet consultant who looks for a cheap fast deduction, I have zero sympathy if they get caught. If it isn't legitmate, it isn't worth the risk. It will catch up with you. Fascist state or not, these are the rules of the game: Declare everything. Deductions are negotiable. > > As one data point, I have derived nearly all of my income over the past 10 > years from investments. And yet the "work" needed to be done on my computer > is such a tiny fraction of my overall use of it that I don't even try to > write off my various computers as "investment expenses." Your mileage may > vary. > > And I certainly have not tried to write off a room in my house as a home > office. (As it happens, I need few of the "office" resources, so I have my > PowerMac and 17" monitor sitting beside my recliner in the family room of > my house, where I can lie back, log in, and bliss out in cyberspace.) > > --Tim May Again the deduction and the risk involved in taking it depends on the situation. If you are investing and/or running the numbers on the market, then there may not be enough there to make it worth your while. I have a client of mine who grosses 7+ figures - net from his commodities, and all he does is take the losses and never expenses anything else. There is no need to, as it's such a small part of his income as to make it ridiculous. From furballs at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 00:34:11 1996 From: furballs at netcom.com (Paul S. Penrod) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:34:11 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <199608210044.RAA02892@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Ross Wright wrote: > On Or About 20 Aug 96, 16:23, Jim Gillogly wrote: > > > > Vipul Ved Prakash writes: > > >I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of > > >spamming here? Is spamming free speech? > > > > > I oppose spamming because it's rude and inefficient, lowering the > > S/N everywhere it happens. Market droids > > Market Droids???? As a salesman I take offence at this slur. Don't bother. There is a difference between marketing and sales. Lighten up. Good salesmen are born with the ability - marketing is a bad attempt at appyling engineering principles to the same. As for spamming, I get enough of it via snail-mail, I don't want to see it in my Inbox too. And, for the record, there are lots of people out there who pay on the bulk charge, not by time. Sending advertising or junk mail to these folks costs them money, maybe not much for the one message you sent, but several thousand over a month of a quarter add up to real money. There is a time and place for legitimate advertising. I am sure that given time and impetus, a number of clear channel venues will open up to allow precision marketing and sales to happen electronicly. At the moment, it's bad nettiquette... ...Paul From erehwon at c2.net Wed Aug 21 00:42:03 1996 From: erehwon at c2.net (William Knowles) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:42:03 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Airport legal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lucky, >I know that it is a violation of federal law to joke about explosives at >the X-ray machine. Would an "I love Explosives" sticker on carry-on >luggage violate any laws? Dunno, But you might get a kick out this from The Chicago Reader that published a list of the "bomb threats" made at O'Hare International airport a few weeks back. 7/18: "I have nothing other than the bomb I am going to put on the plane." 7/18: "I have a bomb that's going to go off in 30 seconds." 7/18: "You mean the bomb I have in my bag?" 7/19: "I don't have an ID, but I have a bomb." 7/21: "There's a bomb in the bag in my hand." 7/23: "I don't have a bomb in the bag." 7/23: "I got a bomb in my bag to kill everyone here." 7/24: "Well no, I left my pipe bomb at home." 7/25: "The one that looks like [there's] a bomb in it." 7/26: "I have a bomb in my bag. Boom." 7/27: "Where should I put the bomb?" 7/27: "No, nothing but a bomb." 7/31: "Are you checking for bombs? I've got a bomb in my bag." 7/31: "I have some explosives to transport." 8/1: "It's not as if we were Swedish and here to blow up the airport." 8/2: Offender: "It's a bomb in the bag." Witness: "That's not funny." Offender: "I'm not playing." 8/3 "I have a bomb." -- William Knowles erehwon at c2.org -- William Knowles PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key -- Vote for Harry Browne in November -- http://www.HarryBrowne96.org From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 21 00:48:26 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:48:26 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960821051709.00e4b758@mail.teleport.com> At 06:31 PM 8/20/96 -0500, Frank Stuart wrote: >Since we don't know how the intruders broke in, we can only speculate. I >can think of several scenarios where cryptographic techniques could help. >I can also think of several where they wouldn't. When you've only got 20 >seconds to explain to a non-technical audience, I don't think it's dishonest >to say that it might have prevented it. > >Off the top of my head, here are a couple examples: > > 1. It's possible that a DOJ employee logged in from a remote site while > the intruders were snooping somewhere along the way. If the link had > been encrypted, that would have made things much more difficult or > impossible for the attackers. > > 2. Perhpas the intruders used IP spoofing and .rhosts to break in. If > machines had to be cryptographically authenticated, a rsh from the > wrong machine wouldn't work. One of the best comments I have seen (from another list) was: "These are the people who want us to escrow our encryption keys with them and yet they can't protect their own web site." I think this can be used as a very valid example as to why they are untrustworthy to be in charge of keeping anything private and/or protected, let alone private encryption keys. --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com "| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From zachb at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 01:08:30 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:08:30 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960821051717.00ee312c@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > At 08:23 PM 8/20/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >A more detailed version of this story was posted on talk.politics.guns > >last week. I could dig it up and post it if anyones interested. > > Post it. I would like to see it at least... > You got it... Published in Washington, D.C. July 9, 1996 Insult to Clinton leads to 2 arrests ------------------------------------------------------ By Ruth Larson THE WASHINGTON TIMES ------------------------------------------------------ [A] Chicago-area couple were arrested on charges of disorderly conduct and interrogated for more than 12 hours last week, simply because the woman told President Clinton exactly what she thought of him. Last Tuesday, Mr. Clinton made an impromptu stop at the "Taste of Chicago" festival in Grant Park at midafternoon. According to her husband, Patricia Mendoza, angered and upset by the recent deaths of 19 U.S. airmen in Saudi Arabia, told the president, "You suck, and those boys died!" Once the president left the area, Secret Service agents and Chicago police converged on Mrs. Mendoza and accused her of threatening the president, a charge her husband, Glenn, vehemently denies. "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if my wife had threatened the president -- which she did not -- I can guarantee we wouldn't have been locked up on charges of disorderly conduct," the Westchester, Ill., man told The Washington Times in a telephone interview last night. Mr. Mendoza served in the Navy for 4 1/2 years, and he was on a ship off the Lebanese coast when the 1983 bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut killed 241 Marines and sailors. "I didn't sit on an aircraft carrier for four years to be railroaded by a bunch of Secret Service agents," he said. Secret Service spokesman Ar nette Heintze said: "People don't get locked up just for saying, 'You suck.' You could say that all day long and it's not a violation of law or local ordinances." Mr. Heintze insisted that Mrs. Mendoza "made a threatening statement" to the president, but he refused to elaborate, saying that the matter was under investigation. "It's a situation that happens from time to time, but it's something we take very seriously," he said. The incident sparked a media frenzy in Chicago but had yet to surface on the East Coast until radio talk-show host G. Gordon Liddy discussed it on his nationally syndicated program yesterday. Mr. Liddy told The Times: "I think it's outrageous. Everybody agrees that if there's a threat, the Secret Service clearly can detain the individuals and do an investigation. "But 'You suck, those boys died' is not a threat. It's an expression of anger, contempt or ridicule. It's wrong for the Secret Service to detain someone if there's no threat," he said. Mr. Mendoza, who owns a small electronics firm, and his wife were at the festival with their employees, unaware that the president was coming. Suddenly, he recalled, the Secret Service descended on the park, throwing up barriers and preventing anyone from leaving the area. A black car drove up, Mr. Clinton leaped out and began shaking hands with onlookers, and Mrs. Mendoza found herself face to face with the president, Mr. Mendoza said. Mr. Clinton shook her hand and she reacted by pulling it back and telling him, "You suck, those boys died," Mr. Mendoza said. He said the president looked at her, then motioned to an assistant as he moved along the rest of the line. "He wasn't pleased," Mr. Mendoza said. Soon afterward, Mr. Mendoza said, Secret Service agents began accusing his wife of threatening the president's life. At that point, he said, he began directing his wife: "Trish, don't say anything. We need a lawyer." An officer told him to shut up and he responded, "Screw you. I have a right to tell my wife to get a lawyer when she's getting interrogated by the Secret Service," Mr. Mendoza said. He concluded, "The fact is, I was arrested because I was swearing at my wife." Chicago police arrested the couple at the request of the Secret Service. The Mendozas were questioned until their release on personal-recognizance bond at 4 a.m. Mr. Mendoza denied any political ill will toward Mr. Clinton. "I'm apolitical. I was in the military, had a good record, have a wife and two kids, a small business," he said. But he fears the incident will be exaggerated because of election-year politics and the Democratic National Convention coming to Chicago next month. "They're making us look like Bonnie and Clyde, Republican poster children. And that's not who we are," Mr. Mendoza said. ------------ Published in Washington, D.C. July 10, 1996 By Ruth Larson THE WASHINGTON TIMES The U.S. Secret Service yesterday sought to distance itself from the arrest of a Chicago-area couple who "insulted" President Clinton during his visit to a festival there last week. Yet even as it was discounting its role in the arrests of Glenn and Patricia Mendoza, the Secret Service was consulting with the U.S. attorney in Chicago about criminal charges against the couple. And Secret Service and Chicago police spokesmen differed on several details of the incident, which is triggering growing outrage on talk radio and even from a prominent Republican member of Congress. The Mendozas were at the Taste of Chicago festival in Grant Park on July 2 when Mr. Clinton dropped by to shake hands in the crowd. Mrs. Mendoza, upset over last month's bombing deaths of 19 U.S. airmen in Saudi Arabia, told the president as he took her hand: "You suck, and those boys died." Mr. Mendoza said the president looked at her, then motioned to an assistant as he moved along shaking hands. After the president left, Secret Service agents accused Mrs. Mendoza of threatening the president. Her husband stepped in and ordered her not to say anything until they called a lawyer. "That is not accurate," Secret Service spokesman Arnette Heintze said yesterday of the Men dozas' version. "A direct threat was made, but I'm not going to elaborate. Mrs. Mendoza has a right to fair representation of her case, as does the prosecution, and the newspaper is not the proper place to air this case. "We were there because a verbal threat was made to the president, and the Secret Service is responsible for the physical safety of the president." Rep. Robert Livingston, Louisiana Republican, is among those angered by what he called Secret Service overreaction. "Is this going to be the norm? If you criticize the president, are you going to be arrested by a bunch of federal agents and thrown in jail overnight? That's a frightening thought." "I think on the heels of this FBI investigation, with these FBI files in the White House, this kind of symbolizes an appalling lack of respect for human rights and for the rights of people to speak out in this country," Mr. Livingston said in a C-SPAN interview. Mr. Heintze, who complained about continuing media interest in the Mendoza matter, said the Secret Service thought there was no need to arrest the couple at the festival because Mr. Clinton had moved on. He said Chicago police arrested the Mendozas because of their conduct after the president left. "The Mendozas refused to follow police directions, and so they opted to arrest them. We supported them in their action, but it was an independent act by the police. "The arrest was separate and incidental to our questioning of the Mendozas," Mr. Heintze said. The Mendozas were charged with disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor, and were interrogated for 12 hours before they were released. No federal charges have been filed. The case has been complicated by conflicting details from the principals: The Chicago Police Department says it is handling the matter. Department spokesman Patrick Camden said yesterday, "There's no Secret Service involvement, to my knowledge." The couple are scheduled to appear in misdemeanor court Aug. 27. But Ralph Grayson, special agent in charge of the Secret Service's Chicago office, said his agency has an "ongoing investigation" into the matter. The Secret Service said Mrs. Mendoza made a "threatening statement" to the president that was far more serious than the one Mrs. Mendoza says she made, but it declined to say what the threat was. Mr. Camden said Mrs. Mendoza had hinted at "blowing up the president." "She said something to the effect that 'He [Mr. Clinton] should have been blown up instead of the 19 servicemen.'" Mr. Heintze said emphatically, "That is not accurate, and don't try to find out what the threat was." A Chicago police spokesman said yesterday that the Secret Service had not asked them to arrest the Mendozas, as was previously reported, but that the couple were arrested for creating a disturbance. The extent to which alcohol contributed to the incident is also in question. Mr. Camden said: "Sure, there was alcohol. They both had been drinking. A rational person doesn't act that way. This was a family event, there were kids around, and these people were saying a lot more than 'You suck.' In fact, it rhymed with 'suck.'" Mr. Mendoza acknowledged that when Secret Service agents accused his wife of threatening the president's life, "I was screaming at the top of my lungs. Granted, I was angry, scared, upset, and if that's disorderly, I guess so." He said he was not drunk. Mr. Mendoza said he repeatedly demanded that he be given a blood breath test, but the police refused. "We wouldn't do a Breathalyzer test, even if he asked," the police spokesman said. "We are so sensitive about First Amendment rights," said the Secret Service spokesman. "I can assure you that if the Secret Service was doing anything contrary to the Constitution, the president would not tolerate it, and he would make big changes," he said. * Joyce Price contributed to this report. --- � KWQ/2 1.2i NR � Friends don't let friends run Windows. --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From rich at c2.org Wed Aug 21 01:14:51 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:14:51 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <199608210340.UAA06334@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Ross Wright wrote: > On Or About 20 Aug 96, 18:09, Rich Graves wrote: > > > On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > > > > > I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of > > > spamming here? Is spamming free speech? > > > > Yes. > > > > So is mailbombing the motherfucker, or more productively, virtually > > picketing his ISP until they kick him off for net abuse > > That is the kind of self righteous crap that gives me the creeps!!! Good. That's called deterrence.* The market decides. >From your earlier message, though, describing the "spamming" you do, I really don't see you as needing deterrence. When I hear "spam" I think of the Jeff Slaton/Vernon Hale/Crazy Kev/John Reese variety of carpet-bombing both Usenet and millions of email addresses indiscriminately. OTOH, if you really target your audience well, especially if a human and not a bot is in charge of selecting prospects, then I'd call that "cold calling," not "spamming." Unsolicited email is moderately annoying, but I don't think it's anything to complain about. I filter all mail from unknown addresses anyway. * - The cool thing about this kind of deterrence is, since you're only defending virtual turf, you can sabre-rattle to your heart's content without worrying about having to actually follow through. -rich From rich at c2.org Wed Aug 21 01:15:16 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:15:16 +0800 Subject: "Utilization Review" In-Reply-To: <199608210220.TAA19927@netcom8.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Bill Frantz wrote: > Do you want to share the risk of routine medical care? Or do you just want > to share the risk of catastrophic illnesses and accidents? Or do you want > to keep it all private. What you pay for, you can keep private. What they > pay for, they can review. Your choice. Oh, that's a different kettle of fish entirely. As a matter of fact I do have catastrophic coverage only ($2500 annual deductible and other limitations), but were I less hale and youthful, or had I a family, I would probably opt for "managed care." However, you'll find that catastrophic coverage really isn't that much cheaper than full "managed care," because without intimate knowledge of my habits and detailed records of regular doctor's visits, the insurance company doesn't trust me as much as it trusts a "managed care" patient. -rich From Adamsc at io-online.com Wed Aug 21 01:41:23 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:41:23 +0800 Subject: Post Office restrictions Message-ID: <19960821062923375.AAA66@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:18:42 -0400 (EDT"), Arley Carter wrote: >> I've told some people about a few of the loopholes mentioned on the list >> about the new post office restrictions on airmail packages. What's >> disturbing is that none of the people I'd talked to, all of whom are >> at least reasonably intelligent, had thought or heard, for instance, >> that PanAm103 only took 12 ounces or that someone could just send two >> packages. How does the news media justify its existence? (Down here, it >> seems to be serving as a propaganda arm for the Republicans) > ************ > >Where are you that the news media serves as a lapdog for the Republicans? >The local media, esp. the print media around here, Winston-Salem, NC >leans so far to the left the letters fall off the page when you up the >newspaper. :-) I'm talking about the San Diego Union-Tribune, the paper that posted huge billboard welcoming the RNC around the area, the paper that paid for the biggest fireworks display ever west of the miss, the paper that had a 6-20 page RNC insert daily, the paper that "spammed" the opinions page with pro-RNC articles. Are we starting to see what's it like? By the end, I was something like "I don't care if Bob Dole gets raped to death by a donkey, I don't want to hear about it!" >As for the national media, esp. the (C)linton (N)ews (N)etwork, need I >say more? Agreed |Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp |Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" |Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 |AcuCOBOL-85: Migrate the easy way - 100% legacy compatible, |easy GUI, ODBC, 650+ platforms w/o recompiling (like Java). From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 01:56:33 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:56:33 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: At 5:16 AM 8/21/96, Paul S. Penrod wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Ross Wright wrote: >> Market Droids???? As a salesman I take offence at this slur. Sales droids are subservient to market droids...sort of like R2D2, a sales droid, getting his marching orders from C3PO, a market droid. >As for spamming, I get enough of it via snail-mail, I don't want to see >it in my Inbox too. And, for the record, there are lots of people out >there who pay on the bulk charge, not by time. Sending advertising or >junk mail to these folks costs them money, maybe not much for the one >message you sent, but several thousand over a month of a quarter add up >to real money. > >There is a time and place for legitimate advertising. I am sure that >given time and impetus, a number of clear channel venues will open up to >allow precision marketing and sales to happen electronicly. > >At the moment, it's bad nettiquette... The basic problem is that, unlike paper mail, it costs a sender essentially nothing to send nearly any size file to as many people as he wishes. This is the basic economic fact of the Net at this time. Until this eventually changes, spamming will be with us. (I understand experts in the field of "spamming" have various names for various flavors: spam, velveeta, jerky, etc. I'll call them all "unwanted messages.") The problem is one of economics and allocation of costs. Other industries have the same issues: * fax machines: costs of paper are borne by receiver, leading to high bills when "junk faxes" are received (and hence some laws restricting such faxes) * cellular phones: receiver of calls usually is charged air time. Thus, "junk calls" cost money. (My physical mailbox probably gets about $1 a day of junk mail, in terms of postage paid. More, in terms of costs to print catalogs, fliers, freebies, etc. It takes me about 20 seconds, tops, to decide what to discard immediately and what to save, so at this point "their costs" > "my costs.") In my view, attempting to legislate what is "junk" and what is not junk is misguided. (And I suspect it rarely works in halting junk mail.) Junk is in the eye of the beholder. There are technological fixes which I would favor over attempts to ban unwanted messages. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 02:16:50 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:16:50 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: At 5:17 AM 8/21/96, Alan Olsen wrote: >One of the best comments I have seen (from another list) was: > >"These are the people who want us to escrow our encryption keys with them >and yet they can't protect their own web site." > >I think this can be used as a very valid example as to why they are >untrustworthy to be in charge of keeping anything private and/or protected, >let alone private encryption keys. Something for future hackers to think about adding in future attacks (*): "Press HERE to access National Law Enforcement Master Key Database" or "Back Door" (with some semi-realistic-looking computer files....) or "Click HERE to download confidential FBI dossiers on Clinton's political enemies." (with a few entries on leading Republicans and former White House occupants, for verisimilitude) In other words, the DOJ attack _could have_ made some much stronger points than merely saying DOJ is linked to Hitler and pornography, etc. (* I am not by these words _encouraging_ such hacks, at least not in any active, conspiratorial, RICO sense.) --Tim May Illegal speech if said to Herr Clinton: "You suck, and those boys died!" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From npoznick at Harding.edu Wed Aug 21 02:16:58 1996 From: npoznick at Harding.edu (nathan poznick) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:16:58 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Airport legal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > I know that it is a violation of federal law to joke about explosives at > the X-ray machine. Would an "I love Explosives" sticker on carry-on > luggage violate any laws? i'm not sure about any specific laws, but i know the airlines take *any* talk of explosives VERY seriously... a few years back, while i was in high school, i was on an airplane with about 15 other students, returning from an excursion... one of the other students said something to the effect of, "oh sure...yea, my cd player is really just a clever bomb in disguise.." one of the flight attendants overheard him say this, (to another student) and he was promptly taken to the front of the plane and restrained...they actually took his cd player apart to make sure there were no explosives in it...the only thing that stopped them from pressing criminal charges was the fact that all of the adult sponsor on the trip vouched for him and pleaded with the flight crew that he was just kidding... he got off with a SEVERE talking to and a cd player in less-than perfect condition... nate. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Nathan Poznick ^ ^ ^ ^ http://www.harding.edu/~npoznick ^ ^ ^ ^ "640k should be enough for anybody." ^ ^ ^ ^ --Bill Gates, 1981-- ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From rwright at adnetsol.com Wed Aug 21 02:19:14 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:19:14 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608210700.AAA10238@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 20 Aug 96, 23:12, Rich Graves wrote: > > > So is mailbombing the motherfucker, or more productively, > > > virtually picketing his ISP until they kick him off for net > > > abuse > > > > That is the kind of self righteous crap that gives me the > > creeps!!! > > Good. That's called deterrence.* The market decides. > > >From your earlier message, though, describing the "spamming" you > >do, I > really don't see you as needing deterrence > indiscriminately. OTOH, if you really target your audience well, > especially if a human and not a bot is in charge of selecting > prospects, then I'd call that "cold calling," not "spamming." Well, that's just the way I look at it. But some people overreact... > Unsolicited email is moderately annoying, but I don't think it's > anything to complain about. I filter all mail from unknown addresses > anyway. > > * - The cool thing about this kind of deterrence is, since you're > only defending virtual turf, you can sabre-rattle to your heart's > content without worrying about having to actually follow through. I do enjoy a little of that from time to time. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From Adamsc at io-online.com Wed Aug 21 02:25:25 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:25:25 +0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: No Subject - Lesson in cracking (cryptoanalysis 001) Message-ID: <19960821071500515.AAA190@IO-ONLINE.COM> ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== >From: "Chris Adams" >To: "Scottauge at aol.com" >Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 00:14:19 -0800 >Reply-To: "Chris Adams" >Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Chris Adams's Registered PMMail 1.52 For OS/2 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Subject: Re: No Subject - Lesson in cracking (cryptoanalysis 001) > On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:34:07 -0400, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 96-08-19 05:44:34 EDT, you write: >> SAMPLE MESSAGE: ("HAIL ERIS") >"e" is a very popular letter, so is t and s. Collect enough cypher text and >ya just match frequency to frequency - a high number of 6's are replaced with >an e, and so on down the line. >Now we just start chunking up the peices according to spelling rules we know >about - then with the help of a handy dandy spell checker like thing, when we >get close to a word, we clump the chunks together. >Actually, mixing your letters around helps cuz one needs to do a lot of >shuffling here - but believe me, algorithms are out there. Plus, the more >cipher text you provide, the easier it is to nab your info cuz there is >more >information for the particular algorithm I'm thinking of to work with. Okay wise guy. I'm going to give you a 14300 character string that starts out EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. . . How are you going to tell *what* I was talking about? I guaruntee with any message of practical length (i.e. not " ckosuuy") will have multiple possibilities, particularly when you take things like mispellings, software artifacts ("----- BEGIN PGP --------" "X-Received ..." etc.) and deliberate attempts to throw you off. That's why it's unbreakable - by anyone! |Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp |Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" |Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 | Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== |Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp |Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" |Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 | Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From attila at primenet.com Wed Aug 21 02:26:42 1996 From: attila at primenet.com (attila) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:26:42 +0800 Subject: the number of the the beast is [666] (was: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs) Message-ID: <199608210700.BAA07366@InfoWest.COM> Addressed to: Rich Graves Cypherpunks I'll see your bet... and raise you five.... THE MARK OF THE BEAST "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark in their right hand and in their foreheads, and that no one may buy of sell except one who has the mark or the name of the Beast, or the number of his name" Revelation 13:16-17 The following article appeared in Nexus magazine Vol 2, No.20: The Microchip and the Mark of the Beast Dr Carl W. Sanders is an electronics engineer, inventer, author and consultant to various government organisations as well as IBM, General Electric, Honeywell and Teledyne. He is also a winner of the Presidents and Governors Award for Design Excellence. "Thirty two years of my life was spent in design engineering and electronics designing microchips in the Bio-Med field. "In 1968 I became involved, almost by accident, in a research and development project in regard to a spinal bypass for a young lady who had severed her spine. They were looking at possibly being able to connect motor nerves etc. "It was a project we were all excited about. There were 100 people involved and I was senior engineer in charge of the project. This project culminated in the microchip that we talk about now a - microchip that I believe is going to be the positive identification and mark of the beast. "This microchip is recharged by body temperature changes. Obviously you can't go in and have your battery changed every so often, so the microchip has a recharging circuit that charges based upon the body temperature changes. Over one and a half million dollars was spent finding out that the two places in the body that the temperature changes the most rapidly are in the forehead (primary position), right below the hairline, and the back of the hand (alternative position). "Working on the microchip, we had no idea about it ever being an identification chip. We looked at it as beig a very humanitarian thing to do. We were all excited about what we were doing. We were doing high-level integration for the very first time. This team was made up of people out of San Jose, people fron Motorolla, General Electric, Boston Medical Center - it was quite a group of people. My responsibility had to do with the design of the chip itself, not the medical side of if. "As the chip came to evolve, there came a time in the project when they said that the financial return on bypassing severed spines is not a very lucrative thing for us to be into, so we really need to look at some other areas. We noticed that the frequency of the chip had a great effect upon behaviour and so we began to branch off and look possibly at behaviour modification. "The project almost turned into electronic acupuncture because what they ended up with was embedding the microchip to put out a signal which effected certain areas. They were able to determine that you could cause behavioural change. "One of the projects was called the Phoenix project which had to do with Vietnam veterans. We had a chip that was called the Rambo chip. This chip would actually cause extra adrenaline flow. "I wonder how many of you know that if you can stop the output of the the pituitary gland (the signal from the pituitary gland that causes oestrogen flow), you can put a person into instant menopause and there is no conception. This was tested in India and other different parts of the world. So here you have got a birth control tool, based on a microchip. Microchips can also be used for migraine headaches, behaviour modification, upper/downer, sexual stimulant and sexual depressant. This is nothing more that electronic acupuncture, folks. "There are 250,000 components in the microchip, including a tiny lithium battery. I fought them over using lithium as a battery source but NASA was doing alot with lithium at that time and it was the going thing. I had talked to a doctor at the Boston Medical Center about what that concentration of lithium in the body could do if the chip broke down. He said that you would get a boil or grievous sore. "As the development moved along, I left the project and came back as a consultant several times. I was used in many meetings as an expert witness in regard to the uses of the microchip. "I was in one meeting where it was discussed. How can you control a people if you can`t identify them ?" All of a sudden the idea came: "Lets make them aware of lost children, etc." "This was discussed in meetings almost like people were cattle. The CIA came up with an idea of putting pictures of lost children on milk cartons. Since the chip is now accepted, you don`t see the pictures anymore, do you. It's served it's purpose. "As we developed this microchip, as the identification chip became the focal point, there were several things that were wanted. They wanted a name, an image (picture of your face), Social security number with the international digits on it, finger print identification, physical description, family history, address, occupation, income tax information and criminal record. "I've been in 17 "one world" meetings where this has been discussed, meetings in Brussels, Luxembourg, tying together the finances of the world. "Just recently in the newspapers they`ve talked about the Health Care Program, the "Womb to Tomb" identification! A positive identification. There are bills before congress right now that will allow them to inject a microchip in your child at the time of birth for identification purposes. "The president of the United States of America, under the "Emigration of Control Act of 1986", Section 100 , has the authority to deem whatever type of identification is necessary - whether it be an invisible tattoo or electronic media under the skin. So I think you have to look at the facts, folks: this is not coming as some big shock. The paving has been done ahead of time." -- "The road to tyranny, we must never forget, begins with the destruction of the truth." -- Bill Clinton, Oct. 15, 1995 at the University of Connecticut. From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 02:26:44 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:26:44 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: At 5:32 AM 8/21/96, Z.B. wrote: >Published in Washington, D.C. July 9, 1996 >Insult to Clinton leads to 2 arrests > >------------------------------------------------------ >By Ruth Larson >THE WASHINGTON TIMES >------------------------------------------------------ >[A] Chicago-area couple were arrested on charges of > disorderly conduct and interrogated for more than >12 hours last week, simply because the woman told >President Clinton exactly what she thought of him. > Last Tuesday, Mr. Clinton made an impromptu stop at >the "Taste of Chicago" festival in Grant Park at >midafternoon. > According to her husband, Patricia Mendoza, angered >and upset by the recent deaths of 19 U.S. airmen in >Saudi Arabia, told the president, "You suck, and >those boys died!" ... Thanks for passing this on. So much for "free speech" in a formerly free country. I've modified my .sig yet again, to include the Verboten Phrase. Clinton is truly looking like a power-mad fool. Still, I hope he wins in November. (I want to see a real impeachment, as the Arkansas news continues to come out.) By the way, the case against Richard Jewell, "THE ATLANTA BOMBER!!!!," continues to crumble...the voice on the 911 call doesn't match his, he couldn't have gotten to the phone at the time the call was made, and the hordes of investigators who tore his apartment apart (and his cabin, and so on) found no real evidence (just the "profile" evidence: some gun magazines, a photo of him cradling an AR-15, his weight, and probably a subscription to The Playboy Channel). Further, experts point out that if Jewell was working with an accomplice (to make the phone call), this blows all conventional theories of a "would-be hero" out of the water: the last thing such a would-be hero wants is an accomplice, who shares in the risk but gets none of the credit, and who could turn him in. Finally, even CNN is picking up the "CIA supplied drugs to L.A. gangs" story that the "San Jose Mercury News" ran a few days ago. Nothing in this story was a real surprise to me, as I listen occasionally to Dave Emory on the radio. Emory is no raving lunatic, in my opinion (I've met him a couple of times). The connections with the Mena, Arkansas airfield are of course quite interesting. --Tim May Illegal speech if said to Herr Clinton: "You suck, and those boys died!" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 21 02:36:01 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:36:01 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Airport legal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > I know that it is a violation of federal law to joke about explosives at > the X-ray machine. Would an "I love Explosives" sticker on carry-on > luggage violate any laws? Yes. The laws are intended to prevent any behavior which may reasonably create apprehension that a threat to a commercial airline exists. You're in for trouble if you put that sticker on your luggage. I'll quote the language if there is enough interest. > > TIA, > > > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From mccoy at communities.com Wed Aug 21 02:43:26 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:43:26 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 18 Aug 1996 Message-ID: "E. ALLEN SMITH" writes: > Speaking of Net-in-Orbit (while distributed datahavens have their > points, sometimes you'd prefer not to have a given chunk of data on your > hard drive - even encrypted with a passphrase), what's the physical setup > for rewriteable optical drives? Are there any methods of doing those that > will work OK in orbit? You want to avoid moving parts like the plague in orbit. They eventually wear out or fail and once that happens you have a very expensive piece of junk in orbit. Solid-state storage is the _only_ way to go if you want to avoid things like neding to pressurize the drive (eliminating any cost advantage over solid-state.) Its not like you can go up to swap a dead drive out you know... The big problem with orbiting datahavens is the cost. Access requires going to a commercial launching agency (approx $100K cost to put a smallsat in LEO.) The smallsat itself is relatively cheap at $25K. Then multiply that by 30 because with LEO (you will not get a GEO slot, ever) you will need a swarm of sats to provide constant coverage; the orbit the sats are in means that they are only overhead for minutes at a time. When you add all of this up it begins to make the idea of buying an old tanker or fish processing boat pretty cost effective. The big problem is that no one has data that is worth protecting enough to make such a venture pay off. jim From DMiskell at envirolink.org Wed Aug 21 03:06:37 1996 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:06:37 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608210735.DAA27966@envirolink.org> Ross Wright writes: >On Or About 20 Aug 96, 18:09, Rich Graves wrote: > >> On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> >> > I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of >> > spamming here? Is spamming free speech? >> >> Yes. >> >> So is mailbombing the motherfucker, or more productively, virtually >> picketing his ISP until they kick him off for net abuse > >That is the kind of self righteous crap that gives me the creeps!!! So civily dealing with a net abuser gives you the creeps? THAT gives ME the creeps, honestly. >> >> Ethically? We don't talk ethics much here, but I'd say it's highly >> unethical to abuse a service paid for by the pooled resources of >> many. > >I pay for my net access. I pay for my Sunday paper, it's full of ads >too!! Ethics??? Let's rat out on the EVIL spammers!! Let's turn >them into thier ISP!!! That's a load of CRAP!!!! We /all/ pay for our access. Most of us work, most of us pay for the paper, most of us put up with ads. Spam is the price of free speech. One must either, in minor cases, ignore it and move on, so as not to encourage; or, in case of extravagent abuse, send word to the isp, spread the word on the net that xxx.com is a spammer's haven (and otherwise discouraging further memberships), as well as filling the sysadmin's mailbox until the spammer is deleted and we can all move on again. It's not a load of crap, it's reality. Everything provided for civil use and enjoyment will be abused repeatedly, it's all in how we deal with it. Greetings from $hell, Daniel. From mccoy at communities.com Wed Aug 21 03:07:04 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:07:04 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks Message-ID: qut at netcom.com (Skip) writes: > The Subject: line says it all. > > My suggestion number #1: > > No moderation. Suggestion 1 on how to diminish the feeble S/N ratio on cypherpunks: make it a newsgroup Suggestion 2: make it an unmoderated newsgroup I can think of nothing that would cause the remaining clue to flee faster than a CP newsgroup in wide distribution (if it were gatewayed to the list) jim From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Wed Aug 21 03:11:44 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:11:44 +0800 Subject: [NOISE]CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608210335.XAA87778@osceola.gate.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Jim Ray wrote: > OK, Rich cites a loon, but the fact is that Southern Air Transport > right here in Miami was in there early in the contraarms-coke > trade. Oh, I don't think it's impossible or even unlikely that at least some of the groups lumped together as "contras" were involved in drug smuggling, and I think it's reasonable to have different views regarding how much money was involved and who knew what when (my view is very little, and medium). What I object to are conspiracy theories along the lines of: 1. The Reagan Administration used the Contras to smuggle crack to the US in a deliberate attempt at genocide against Black people. (I heard this a lot, though seldom in so many words, on KPFK in the mid-80's; the SJ Merc series certainly has this as a subtext.) 2. Clinton was a CIA agent involved in the Contra drug-smuggling CaBaL. He was involved in anti-war protests only as a CIA informant. (This is the suggestion of the Morris book.) 3. Anything involving the Kennedy assassination, Donna Rice, or Elvis. > It is a major, bipartisan, Watergate-style but bigger > scandal, and the strange bedfellows in the media who were doing a > halfway decent job of covering it [The Wall Street Journal and > "High Times" magazine(!)] have fallen strangely silent on the > subject as the election approaches. Hmmmmm. 4. Anything where vague unsupported asserions are thrown out, followed by a Hmmmmm (sorry). -rich From DMiskell at envirolink.org Wed Aug 21 05:55:35 1996 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 20:55:35 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608210740.DAA28118@envirolink.org> Ross Wright writes: >On Or About 20 Aug 96, 16:23, Jim Gillogly wrote: >> >> Vipul Ved Prakash writes: >> >I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of >> >spamming here? Is spamming free speech? >> > >> I oppose spamming because it's rude and inefficient, lowering the >> S/N everywhere it happens. Market droids > >Market Droids???? As a salesman I take offence at this slur. Well, look at it from the consumer point of view. We log on, and see what is eccentially a junk-email, written as a form letter, sitting in our box. It's gotten to the point were I have barely enough patience to skim my junk before I delete it, just to be fair. So, to most of it, it seems quite droidlike. If you want people referring to it in a more respectable manner, earn more respect. Do a more personalized canvass, or find better ways to advertise, other than junk email. You'll piss less people off, and get more respect. >> favor it because it's >> cheap, and no matter how many people they piss off bigtime, they >> make some sales. > >Even make sales to people who are pissed off at first... That doesn't make it right, in my opinion. It just makes it worse, because salesmen will not consider how annoying their canvass is to people before sending it out, and more and more people get pissed. Selling is no justification, the ends do not justify the means. People are still angered. After all, you are not counting how many pissed off people you do NOT sell to. Greetings from $hell, Daniel. From rich at c2.org Wed Aug 21 06:31:22 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:31:22 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: <199608210012.RAA11460@netcom.netcom.com> Message-ID: Skippy the Mad Troller Bcc'd to cypherpunks: > Liar, you support imprisoning and deporting people based purely on their > political ideas, such as the bile your mouth puked up all over the net this > whole year. Re: Ernst Z�ndel and his years of imprisonment by a court > for merely expressing his racist ideas, racist political ideas being > strictly illegal in Canada, hell everywhere in the so called white world > except for the USA, so far. Point of fact: since he came to Canada, Zundel has spent a total of 4 1/2 *days* in minimum-security lockup. The other seven errors in the paragraph above aren't worth responding to. For further, totally off-topic reading on Skippy and me, see: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/harman.david http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/nyms/an572010 http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/graves.rich http://www.stanford.edu/~ajg/project.html -rich From rich at c2.org Wed Aug 21 06:50:44 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:50:44 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Z.B. wrote: > Published in Washington, D.C. July 9, 1996 > Insult to Clinton leads to 2 arrests > > ------------------------------------------------------ > By Ruth Larson > THE WASHINGTON TIMES > ------------------------------------------------------ I think you should try a more credible paper. Say, Scientology's Freedom Magazine, rather than the Moonies'. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish. -rich From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 21 07:06:53 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 22:06:53 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 18 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:35 AM -0400 8/21/96, Jim McCoy wrote: > The big problem is that no one has data that is worth protecting enough to > make such a venture pay off. Well, maybe not yet. An overnight backup copy of a $10 million foreign exchange banknote might. $2 trillion in FX trxes a day, folks... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From whgiii at amaranth.com Wed Aug 21 07:10:42 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 22:10:42 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats (getting off topic) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960820173846.007137e4@iu.net> Message-ID: <199608211156.GAA09206@mailhub.amaranth.com> In <1.5.4.32.19960820173846.007137e4 at iu.net>, on 08/20/96 at 01:38 PM, Stephen Cobb said: >Very true...what I am saying is that, as far as my reading goes, LEGAL >aliens are going to be required to pay social security "taxes" while not >having any "entitlement" in return. They pay income taxes and get certain >things, like law and order, in return. They will be paying soc sec money to >the government without getting anything in return. This sounds not only >unfair but wrong, part of an isolationist, "we killed the natives so this >land is our land and the rest of you f@*k-off" revival that includes the >recent posting about requiring proof of citizenship before issuing drivers >licenses. So what? I can gaurentee that I will never see any "entitlement" (not that I believe that there is any entitlements in life other than death & taxes) in return for the taxes I pay (at 50% income no less). IMHO no non-US citizen has a right to one thin dime of my tax dollars. Period no exceptions. Don't like it PISS OFF and go back to whatever stink hole you came from. I for one am sick and tired of politions cow-towing to a bunch of special intrest groups who don't even represent US citizens. If they can't support themself when they come to this country then they need to stay where they are. We have plenty of home grown dead beats sucking off the government tit without shipping them in. Now on the driver licenses. Every state requires some type of ID to get one (ie birth certificate, ss#, prof of resedency, ..ect). Should you have to be a citizen to get one? No, with the exception of those living inside a large metropoliten area (Chicago,NewYork,L.A.) a car is a requirment. Trust me I've lost my license and you would not beleive what a hassel it is just to get back and forth to work or the store without one. IMHO unless you are out killing people with your car the state should not be allowed to take away your driver license. Especialy for such trivial matters as too many speeding tickets, not to mention all the non-driving related reasons the state can suspend your license for (in Florida non payment of child support is good enough reason). P.S.: We did kill off all the natives and it IS our country. This county was founded to get away from all the European crap and I see no reason 200 years later we should be working to make this country as F@#$ed up as they are. Well that's my $0.02 worth. :) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Air conditioned environment - Do not open Windows. MR/2 Tag->Dos: Venerable. Windows: Vulnerable. OS/2: Viable. From bdolan at use.usit.net Wed Aug 21 07:30:34 1996 From: bdolan at use.usit.net (Brad Dolan) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 22:30:34 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Brad Dolan wrote: > > > Goofy guy agrees with Morris about X, therefore Morris' well-documented > > claims about X and Y are false? > > Lots of footnotes to "confidential interview" do not make a valid study. How > many "well-documented" studies of the Kennedy assassination and UFO > sightings have you read? > > I followed this wild goose chase to exhaustion back in 1986-7. I've > forgotten most of it, but I'm sure I have some notes and maybe some tapes > lying around. Yes, some contras and some sandinistas and some martistas and > *lots* of the senderos and M-19 ran drugs. That's what happens when you > criminalize a political movement -- political figures become criminals in > order to survive. (When the crime they're involved is simply free trade in > criminalized agricultural products, it just adds another layer of irony.) > Those products should be legalized of course - but that would deprive the CIA etc. of a nice hidden source of income. > There's a kernel of truth and plausibility to most conspiracy theories, > including this one. (It's a big mistake to say *all* conspiracy theories.) > However, the money involved was rather small, the process was basically skew > to politics (both sides did it all), and I have never been convinced that > the CIA -- or even North's coterie in the NSC, which as you know ran a > number of ops that the CIA would never have gone for -- was in on it. > If you don't believe the principled left (Morris, etc.), the principled right (Tyrell, etc.), the mainstream media (see below), or my personal local observations, I think you've made up your mind and are beyond convincing. > (ObConspiracy: H. Ross Perot actually was involved in funneling money to the > contras. He was rather open and proud of it. Is he mentioned in Morris's > book?) Briefly. bd > > -rich > > Wall Street Journal, 5/3/94, Letter to the Editor STILL A STRONG SCENT ON THE MENA TRAIL We are glad that Edward Jay Epstein saw the CBS News report on Mena, Ark., which he discussed in his April 20 editorial-page piece. "On the Mena Trail." Our story, like others on Mena, raised questions. They won't be answered until reporters follow the money - millions of dollars generated out of the operations at Mena. That could either put it to rest, or lead to a story at least as important as Whitewater. The original report on Whitewater by Jeff Gerth of the New York Times was ignored for many months. The Mena story probably will suffer the same fate unless other journalists pick up the trail. That might not happen if readers conclude, as Mr. Epstein seems to, that the only place Mena could lead is to Whitewater. What if Mena has nothing to do with Whitewater? Our sources agree with Mr. Epstein on a number of things: There was most likely a CIA-sponsored Contra operation run out of Mena, as well as a huge parallel cocaine-smuggling operation, money laundering, and a Justice Department coverup. Much of this happened on Mr. Clinton's watch as governor. But Mr. Epstein says that after smuggler Barry Seal was killed there was really no one else to go after. Investigators never targeted Mr. Seal. They knew he was working for the federal government and was therefore untouchable. Instead, they targeted Seal's associates - the bankers and businessmen who allegedly laundered his drug profits and illegally modified his planes so he could smuggle tons of cocaine into the U.S. They were never prosecuted by either the federal government or the state of Arkansas. Mr. Epstein says that no one is claiming that Mr. Clinton blocked legal proceedings in this matter. But as the CBS News story revealed, Mr. Clinton was asked by a state prosecutor for help to pursue the case against Seal's associates. Help was promised but never arrived. Arkansas Rep. Bill Alexander tried to save and then re-start an investigation of Mena. Mr. Clinton did not seize on this issue and offer support, despite the fact that a Republican administration was apparently sponsoring a Contra aid operation in his state and protecting a smuggling ring that flew tons of cocaine through Arkansas. Mr. Epstein suggests there is no reason to believe Mr. Clinton knew about Mena. But the governor's own state police began investigating at Mena in 1984. Isn't it reasonable to assume that he was made aware of the investigation? Mr. Clinton did acknowledge learning about Mena as early as April 1988; Ross Perot, who had done his own investigation of Mena, was concerned enough about the drugs-for-guns operation to call Mr. Clinton. And former Clinton staff people have told CBS News that the governor was aware of what was going on there. Mena is a perplexing and difficult story. There is a trail - tens of millions of dollars in cocaine profits, and we don't know where it leads. It is a trail that has been blocked by the National Security Council. The FAA, FBI, Custons, CIA, Justice, DEA and the IRS were all involved in Mena. They won't say how they were involved, but they will tell you there is nothing there. Bill Plante, CBS News Correspondent Michael Singer, Producer, CBS News New York From liberty at gate.net Wed Aug 21 08:23:37 1996 From: liberty at gate.net (Jim Ray) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:23:37 +0800 Subject: [NOISE]CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) Message-ID: <199608211235.IAA30204@osceola.gate.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 21 08:35:15 1996 Rich Graves wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Jim Ray wrote: ... > Oh, I don't think it's impossible or even unlikely that at least > some of the > groups lumped together as "contras" were involved in drug > smuggling, and I > think it's reasonable to have different views regarding how much > money was > involved and who knew what when (my view is very little, and > medium). Anyone who says "very little" money is involved in any aspect of the cocaine importation trade definitely doesn't live in Miami. >What I > object to are conspiracy theories along the lines of: > > 1. The Reagan Administration used the Contras to smuggle crack > to the US in > a deliberate attempt at genocide against Black people. (I > heard this a > lot, though seldom in so many words, on KPFK in the mid-80's; > the SJ Merc > series certainly has this as a subtext.) I never said that, and I object to calling something a "conspiracy theory" just because it's politically inconvenient. People in power conspire to get rich and stay in power. Sometimes they use laws they write and sometimes they break laws they wrote. This is a fact of life, not a conspiracy theory. > 2. Clinton was a CIA agent involved in the Contra drug-smuggling > CaBaL. He was governor of Arkansas when Reagan was President of the United States. Do the search I already gave you, and read the articles. mena /p cocaine ... > > It is a major, bipartisan, Watergate-style but bigger > > scandal, and the strange bedfellows in the media who were > doing a > > halfway decent job of covering it [The Wall Street Journal and > > "High Times" magazine(!)] have fallen strangely silent on the > > subject as the election approaches. Hmmmmm. > > 4. Anything where vague unsupported asserions are thrown out, > followed by > a Hmmmmm (sorry). OK, looks like I have to say it again, and remember this is NOT me, it's those conspiracy theorists at CBS News, printed in that radical purveyor of vague unsupported asserions...The Wall Street Journal: "The FAA, FBI, Customs, CIA, Justice, DEA and the IRS were all involved in Mena. They won't say how they were involved, but they will tell you there is nothing there." -- Bill Plante, CBS News Correspondent, & Michael Singer, Producer, CBS News, New York. [In Tuesday, May 3, 1994's Wall Street Journal letters to the editor section.] Look it up. I am not a journalist, but it sometimes seems I have a better institutional memory than they do. This story was covered poorly, even though there was/is plenty there, because of politics and power masquerading as "national security." The story is there for journalists who want to risk covering it, but the trail is getting cold, and yes, some loons have latched onto it, due in part to the vacuum in "legitimate" media coverage. [This will be my final word on this subject in this forum.] JMR Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy "'Filegate' is starting to make _Ed_ _Meese_ look ethical." -- me Defeat the Duopoly! Vote "NOTA," not Slick/Dull in November. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray Coming soon, the "Pennies For Perot" page. Keep billionaires off welfare! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhsCim1lp8bpvW01AQHsYQP+JeN4t0Cd/d+Woy0eyvvVtCHy//RoSWJI K3gWOAHTMB71xZDKu7qbuUMRBs1nsFv2dlvYlKMIJLxn9Bl2H+13IpOsYTtPntg+ r+YOPazgwVVm8wNICEekdKjki9MaiTj1AFIX2P2LbVp7EZkmQIwxJfkYZituWNIy LNFZyOGhVaQ= =b3jZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From asgaard at Cor.sos.sll.se Wed Aug 21 08:30:40 1996 From: asgaard at Cor.sos.sll.se (Asgaard) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:30:40 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > lying around. Yes, some contras and some sandinistas and some martistas and > *lots* of the senderos and M-19 ran drugs. That's what happens when you > criminalize a political movement -- political figures become criminals in > order to survive. (When the crime they're involved is simply free trade in > criminalized agricultural products, it just adds another layer of irony.) But also many 'legitimate' political movements in South American countries engage in the cocaine trade (the President of Colombia etc). And why shouldn't they. Here, the South countries at least have one commodity that is highly prized in the North countries. It's very bad economy not to profit from this. Asgaard From cmefford at avwashington.com Wed Aug 21 10:02:46 1996 From: cmefford at avwashington.com (Chip Mefford) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:02:46 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>snip<< >It also rained cocaine in Tennessee in the '80s, >but the authorities never seemed to notice. Ask the Knoxville >_News-Sentinel_ how many stories it can find in its archives relating >to planes loaded with cocaine crash-landing on remote airstrips, >airdrops being found in citizens' yards, etc. Then ask the DEA what it did >about those events. > The DEA probably didn't do shit, if you were (are) paying attention, the DEA has had its hands tied by the state department and the CIA for years. As they are now an arm of the FBI, they have been almost totally deballed. When Klaus Barbie and his mercenaries from Argentina overthrough the Government of Bolivia back in '80, it was blessed by the CIA and the State department, cause the Bolivians were defineatly going "left". Bolivia is now and was at the time, a coca country, that is their principal export. Nearly 1/2 of all our cocaine comes from there. It is transported through the Honduras and Coloumbia, Both CIA "Friendly" countries. The biggest dope exporters are always up to their necks in CIA and US state department. Pay attention. The DEA has attempted to deal with this, and many of their operatives end up fired or dead, this is why so many of them resigned back in the late 80's after DEA operative Enrique (Kiki) Camerara was tortured to death by the Mexican Government. The State department had the white house (Ronald) get the DEA to back off the investigation after they implicated top government and military people in Mexico as being involved in the torture. The DEA may not actually be the "Good" Guys, but there are some much worse out there >bd > >p.s. Donna Rice has lately been running point for a regulate-the-internet >front group. I wouldn't put anything past her. From droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com Wed Aug 21 10:06:23 1996 From: droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:06:23 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks Message-ID: <9608211346.AA21049@spirit.aud.alcatel.com> No and HELL no. I find that this list gets enough crap as it is, and gatewaying it to a generally available Usenet group would just add to the noise level. Now, if you want to gateway it to a local group because you like your newsreader better than your email reader, be my guest. Dan > Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks > > The Subject: line says it all. > > My suggestion number #1: > > No moderation. > > > -- > Skip, OBC > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Oelke Alcatel Network Systems droelke at aud.alcatel.com Richardson, TX From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 21 10:18:30 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:18:30 +0800 Subject: The grey lady puts on some boots and rides a horseman or two... Message-ID: I'm listening to the BBC's World Service at the moment, and they're doing a feature on pedophiles on the internet, complete with much knashing of teeth about encryption and anonymity, along with some lurid stuff about private holding cells, and sexual tourism, and slavery. And Lions. And Tigers. And Bears. Oh My. They even had a quote from someone at Wired (a Brit, didn't catch the name), who sounded like he was wringing his hands about unbreakable encryption. Probably spliced out of a larger quote which had more sense in it. Be afraid, be very afraid. They're coming for your daughters. The BBC says so. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From asgaard at Cor.sos.sll.se Wed Aug 21 11:34:48 1996 From: asgaard at Cor.sos.sll.se (Asgaard) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 02:34:48 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > There are technological fixes which I would favor over attempts to ban > unwanted messages. In the meantime, before these technological fixes are easily implemented, what is the proper way to handle unwanted commercial mail? 1) delete immediately 2) reply with 'Fuck off, morons!' 3) as in 2) plus an attachment of some 1Mb file 4) as in 3) plus a CC to the postmaster of the sending site What if the spam says: 'Do only reply to this if you want further contact with us' etc? Does anybody have good advice, including risks for retaliation from the vendors/postmasters for such 're-spam'? Asgaard From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Aug 21 11:53:05 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 02:53:05 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608211517.KAA28365@manifold.algebra.com> Jim McCoy wrote: > qut at netcom.com (Skip) writes: > > My suggestion number #1: > > No moderation. > > Suggestion 1 on how to diminish the feeble S/N ratio on cypherpunks: > > make it a newsgroup > Suggestion 2: > make it an unmoderated newsgroup How about making it a robomoderated newsgroup with only one enforced rule, forbidding any crossposting? - Igor. From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 21 11:54:15 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 02:54:15 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) Message-ID: <199608211539.IAA14733@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:33 AM 8/21/96 -0400, Chip Mefford wrote: > The DEA may not actually be the "Good" Guys, but there are some much worse >out there Whatever "worse guys" are out there, the vast majority of which would become de-fanged almost instantly on the legalization of currently-illegal drugs. Given a choice between wishing for the death of everyone in the DEA, or everyone the DEA claims to object to, I'd off the DEA is a second. It's an organization which guarantees the existence of its own opposition. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From qut at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 12:21:56 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 03:21:56 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <9608211346.AA21049@spirit.aud.alcatel.com> Message-ID: <199608211550.IAA22958@netcom.netcom.com> ! No and HELL no. ! ! I find that this list gets enough crap as it is, and gatewaying it to ! a generally available Usenet group would just add to the noise level. ! ! Now, if you want to gateway it to a local group because you I've never mentioned gatewaying, I'm only for that with moderated mailing lists, unlike cypherpunks . ! like your newsreader better than your email reader, ! be my guest. Not personally relevent, my favorite newsreader can be used for e-mail, but it's clumsy for that function. ! > Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks ! > ! > The Subject: line says it all. ! > ! > My suggestion number one: ! > ! > No moderation. My suggestion number two: No gateway. The list and newsgroup stays seperated. -- Skip, OBC From iang at cs.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 21 12:22:18 1996 From: iang at cs.berkeley.edu (Ian Goldberg) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 03:22:18 +0800 Subject: Final release of Navigator (with strong crypto) now available In-Reply-To: <4vb5ud$skn@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <4vfapu$e48@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCri_Kaljundi?= wrote: > 19 Aug 1996, Ian Goldberg wrote: > >> > No, we will only be supplying ELF. Since linux is not officially >> >supported, we really don't have the resources to do multiple versions. >> > >> Not to mention that plugins are virtually impossible with a.out... > >You really think someone will write plug-ins for Unix versions of >Netscape? I am not so sure. > Yes, I'm positive of it, mainly because _I_ will, especially for Linux. - Ian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhsueUZRiTErSPb1AQHsUQP+N52PAk5t6/r4JYyudgIuyLL1+SCGdaMo 6QgHm6GMqiHwfudVgERUJ+aM6no1Soc/KozTHhdVS/Od4qtoBo2B9Pekhw8+O4Cj EfXEbX2267jOjgMMlKaA6/f9crjCmBd/1z2PwwTZ35E2oNvOAQzRxN9G6gd0jgao AJK5z8rIvEU= =8YC6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From daemon at anon.penet.fi Wed Aug 21 12:45:44 1996 From: daemon at anon.penet.fi (daemon at anon.penet.fi) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 03:45:44 +0800 Subject: Anonymous password assignment failure (illegal password) Message-ID: <9608211343.AA11951@anon.penet.fi> You have requested the assignment of a new password However, the password x-control is not legal. Passwords should only contain letters and numbers. From perry at piermont.com Wed Aug 21 14:19:44 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:19:44 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608211506.LAA16055@jekyll.piermont.com> "Erik E. Fair" writes: > SSH, while a quite useful tool, is not the right long-term solution for > transport layer security - IP security is. Agreed. (After all, I'm one of the creators of the spec, so how couldn't I agree :) However, SSH is a neat hack for today -- I use it for connecting over the net to machines where I can't hack the operating system but can drop SSH on. An SSH like interface (actually, Berkeley r-command like interface) will still be needed into the future, btw. > It's also clear to me that for E-mail, you don't want transport level > security for the system; you want "object" security, that is, digital > signature and encryption of the mail message. Yup. This is a frequently missed point. Link security and object security have different uses at different times -- and people confuse them way too often. Perry From jim at ACM.ORG Wed Aug 21 14:26:23 1996 From: jim at ACM.ORG (Jim Gillogly) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:26:23 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608211740.KAA22683@mycroft.rand.org> Asgaard writes: >In the meantime, before these technological fixes are easily implemented, >what is the proper way to handle unwanted commercial mail? >What if the spam says: 'Do only reply to this if you want >further contact with us' etc? Then you fix up the "Reply-to:" line to point back to them, helping them debug their anti-loop procedures. For extra credit use port 25 to create the mail so that they can't easily ignore "Reply-to" and use the "From:" line for their next salvo. Jim Gillogly Trewesday, 29 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 17:39 From jims at MPGN.COM Wed Aug 21 14:35:24 1996 From: jims at MPGN.COM (James C. Sewell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:35:24 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960821145232.006fe294@tansoft.com> At 06:09 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > >> I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of spamming >> here? Is spamming free speech? > >Yes. No. I think we can all (most) agree that spam-email is like junk-snailmail. In that case there are a few things to consider: 1. Junkmail requires the SENDER to pay for it, not the recipient. 2. Junkmail is under the full authority of the Postmaster. If they do anything illegal they have an authority to which they must answer and may face criminal charges for. 3. You can't legally stuff mailboxes by driving around the neighborhood. It is against the law for me to walk up to your mailbox and put something in it. Should the same be true of emailboxes? 4. Junkmail is usually at a lower priority than "real" mail and due to costs is usually easily identifiable. Email isn't. And one relating to only email: I don't want to have to spend 10 minutes letting Eudora sort through my mailbox because my filter rules are so numerous and complex due to me trying to block spam. We must remember that the First Amendment does not allow us to say any thing at any time via any medium we choose. There are limits to it, usually in the name of public safety and harassment. There should be similar limits in the Internet. I'm not saying we shouldn't let you tell others how get rich quick but that you should not be allowed to mail to *@*.* just to tell the world how great we are. Jim Jim Sewell - jims at tansoft.com Tantalus Incorporated - Key West, FL From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 21 14:47:07 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:47:07 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608211530.IAA14072@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:12 AM 8/21/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Z.B. wrote: > >> Published in Washington, D.C. July 9, 1996 >> Insult to Clinton leads to 2 arrests >> By Ruth Larson >> THE WASHINGTON TIMES >> ------------------------------------------------------ > >I think you should try a more credible paper. Say, Scientology's Freedom >Magazine, rather than the Moonies'. You are of course free to believe >whatever you wish. At this point, I think the Washington Times has far more credibility than the Washington Post. While I'm, likewise, not particularly happy with the Times' ownership, I doubt whether stories like this ever appear in the Post. (You tell me: Did this story ever appear in the Post?) The Net public is getting less and less tolerant of obvious bias on the part of those who report the news. The Times has some potential (undisplayed) bias that we need to be on the lookout for, but the Post is actively engaging in bias in its news stories, NOW. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From qut at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 15:12:49 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip, OBC) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:12:49 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <199608211517.KAA28365@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <199608211645.JAA06426@netcom.netcom.com> ! Jim McCoy wrote: ! > qut at netcom.com (Skip) writes: ! > > My suggestion number #1: ! > > No moderation. ! > ! > Suggestion 1 on how to diminish the feeble S/N ratio on cypherpunks: ! > ! > make it a newsgroup ! > Suggestion 2: ! > make it an unmoderated newsgroup ! ! How about making it a robomoderated newsgroup with only one enforced ! rule, forbidding any crossposting? If moderation, then why not moderator(s) who simply send out cancel messages to everthing that is crossposted? Traditional moderated newsgroups are technically inferior because all posts go through netnews chokepoints and then depends on the moderator(s) who's inevitable position has been the irresponsible one of keeping the position long after they lose interest with the high volumes. Even if their was such a person, there is still are chokepoint problem which is stupid to engage in. In any case, creation of comp.org.cypherpunks in no way means gatewaying or shutting down cypherpunks at toad.com . -- Love, Skip, OBC From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Wed Aug 21 15:19:41 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:19:41 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity Message-ID: <9607218406.AA840654179@smtplink.alis.ca> qut at netcom.com (Skip) >... you support imprisoning and deporting people based purely on their political ideas, ... Re: Ernst Zndel and his years of imprisonment by a court for merely expressing his racist ideas, racist political ideas being strictly illegal in Canada... Actually, he was charged with inciting hatred against a recognizable group but was eventually freed on appeal. I think the problem was that the prosecution could not find anyone who listened to Zundel and didn't already hate the same groups. Hence, no incitement. He is currently fighting to get his Canadian citizenship, (he is a German citizen) while many other people are fighting to prevent this. Zundel believes that returning to Germany would result in imprisonment. It's nice to know that the people we imprison for their views are still willing to go to court to become a Canadian citizen. James Nota: Quebec recently held a referendum on seperation from Canada. Just talk about secession of a state in the U.S., and you'll quickly see which country makes political ideas illegal. From talon57 at well.com Wed Aug 21 15:33:58 1996 From: talon57 at well.com (Brian D Williams) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:33:58 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks Satelites? Message-ID: <199608211911.MAA25592@well.com> There was a review of a book called "Micro Space Craft" by Rick Fleeter in the Aug issue of WIRED. My copy arrived an hour ago...... Chapter one: Why are we here? Chapter two: Propulsion-or-how to get there? Chapter three: Orbit Mechanics-or-What keeps these things up anyway? Chapter four: Orbit Mechanics II: The Movie Chapter five: You Send Me: Orbit mechanics III Chapter six: Magnetic Attractions Chapter seven: Everything you always wanted to know about radio, Part one: Shatter the myth of the digital Miracle? Chapter eight: Everything you always wanted to know about radio Part two: Faster than a speeding bullet. Chapter nine: Everything you always wanted to know about radio Part three: What's up Doc? Chapter ten: Thermal Dynamics: Tough talk about temperature (A short virtually painless, and occasionally philosophical look at spacecraft thermostatics and thermodynamics. Chapter eleven: You got an attitude buddy?: (A primer on small satelite stability and control.) Chapter twelve: Memory systems for spacecraft-or-Memory-What is it good for? Chapter thirteen: Mechanisms: The nuts and bolts of small Satelites. Chapter fourteen: Batteries not included. Chapter fifteen: Bring'em up clean. Chapter sixteen: Satelite clusters Chapter seventeen: Where to look for historical underpinnings,term definitions, and revolutionary zeal turned up to 11. Chapter eighteen: Space history and a possible future. "Dr Rick Fleeter is a founder and President of the small Satelite and space transportation company AeroAstro, and the International Small Satelite Organization (ISSO). He has been responsible for development of over 20 miniature satelites ranging from 2.5 to 250 pounds and has been writing and publishing the "NEW SPACE" (previously ISSO) newsletter bimonthly since 1987." The Edge City Press 10912 Harpers Sq. Ct. Reston, VA 22091 703.620.6650 FAX 703.716.5752 9-5 EDT "I LIKE IT !!!"(****) YMMV Brian "Zazen? Well it beats sitting around on your ass all day doing nothing." From zachb at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 15:34:05 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:34:05 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Z.B. wrote: > > > Published in Washington, D.C. July 9, 1996 > > Insult to Clinton leads to 2 arrests > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > By Ruth Larson > > THE WASHINGTON TIMES > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I think you should try a more credible paper. Say, Scientology's Freedom > Magazine, rather than the Moonies'. You are of course free to believe > whatever you wish. > I posted this due to a request from another reader. My beliefs did not have anything to do with the issue. --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com From bdavis at thepoint.net Wed Aug 21 15:40:51 1996 From: bdavis at thepoint.net (Brian Davis) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:40:51 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <199608210340.UAA06334@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Message-ID: > ... > I pay for my net access. I pay for my Sunday paper, it's full of ads > too!! Ethics??? Let's rat out on the EVIL spammers!! Let's turn When my ISP tells me that I must accept spammed advertising with my monthly fee, as the Sunday paper effectively does with its ads, your analogy might have some meaning. And I have the option of sending the ads to the advertiser, telling them that the ads suck. Free (commercial)speech for you (perhaps at our expense), but no free speech for us? EBD > them into thier ISP!!! That's a load of CRAP!!!! > > Ross > > =========== > Ross Wright > King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services > http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia > Voice: 415-206-9906 > From talon57 at well.com Wed Aug 21 15:42:37 1996 From: talon57 at well.com (Brian D Williams) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:42:37 +0800 Subject: telco's vs x-phones Message-ID: <199608211619.JAA10587@well.com> In a reply to Vipul Ved Prakash, Jim Bell wrote: >Assume 30 cents per meter per fiber for cabled fiber, or about $10 (US) per meter for 36-fiber cable. Siecore plain vanilla 36 fiber singlemode list $ 1.82 a foot, $5.46 a yard >Each fiber pair should be able to handle approximately 1 million >conversations at current data rates, or a total of 18 million >conversations for that 18-pair cable, or 9.5 trillion >conversation-minutes. At current data rates (OC-48 Sonet) 32,256 voice channels per fiber, 580,608 total for the fiber. Off by a factor of roughly 36 at this point. >Multiply this cost by 10 for right of way, trenching, repeaters, >and other auxiliary hardware, or $100 per meter. This is probably >just a ballpark estimate, but... Off by a factor of at least 10 not counting switching equipment. >I've read that estimates show that it would probably be cheaper to >provide cellular-telephone service in China to everyone than to >wire the country up with copper lines. This isn't particularly >surprising. Cell-phones solve the "last few hundred yards/mile or >two" problem quite well. Since nearly all of the actual >connections in a copperline telephone system are >switch-to-individual-phone lines, going cellular saves a bundle of >installation costs. A good point, in Sri Lanka they were having problems with copper bandits cutting down all the cable, till they switched to fiber. The question is can the average citizen of china afford a cell phone and service for what it can be installed. In a reply to me Jim bell wrote: >The long distance companies are not "using local networks," your >customers are...to connect to those long distance companies. And >any payments LD companies make to you are, indeed, a subsidy. >Tell me, how much is this _subsidy_, exactly? Who's using who is a matter of perspective. Q) if you call a dog's tail a "leg" how many legs does a dog have? A) four, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. Point? The LD companies pay to use the RBOC's networks, calling it a subsidy doesn't make it one, except maybe to you. If they don't like it, they are free (or soon will be) to build their own, or use someone elses. >As an alternative, the phone company would presumably be entitled >to be served by phone lines, at say $30 per month or so, through >which their customers reach them. $30 per month is $1 per day or >4 cents per hour or about 0.07 cents per minute. 3 cents doesn't >equal 0.07 cents, now does it?!? "Presumably be entitled?" The RBOC's currently charge what regulations allow, if the regs go away, they will charge what the market will pay. >Tell me again how "the local/long distance subsidy was eliminated >at breakup." Tell me another one, daddy... Enhance your calm Jim...... >How has this remaining SUBSIDY dropped over time, assuming it has? >When is it scheduled to drop to zero? The rate has gone down since the regs are changing and competition is increasing. I would be interested in hearing why you think it will ever drop to zero. >First, you need to figure out how to supply ISDN for a REASONABLE >charge, like "no extra charge!" to customers. It's been over 16 >years after I first heard of ISDN. At the time, it seemed like a >wonderful idea...against the 300 baud modems then in use. Against >modern 31K modems that you only have to pay for...ONCE...ISDN >seems mighty lame. >Face it, ISDN used to be a good idea. But it's just barely shown >up the moment it's hit the end of its marketing window. ISDN will >have a marketing lifetime for maybe a couple of more years, and >only then because you can't put more bits through a 3.4 khz >passband. >Not to mention all the bullshit propaganda that claimed that with >ISDN, you wouldn't have to buy any modems. Well, maybe that's >just because they didn't CALL them modems, but they charged way >more for an essentially indistinguishable function. Can you say, >"Fraud"? I knew you could! Jim, first you set up the ISDN "Strawman" and then you knock it down. I no more believe that ISDN is the future than you do. Be well! Brian "Zazen? Well it beats sitting around on your ass all day doing nothing." From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 21 16:34:15 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:34:15 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Airport legal question Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960821203637.00c65588@mail.teleport.com> At 12:50 PM 8/21/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >>7/23: "I don't have a bomb in the bag." >>7/24: "Well no, I left my pipe bomb at home." >>8/1: "It's not as if we were Swedish and here to blow up the airport." > > >I wonder how they determined that the lines above were "bomb threats." They contain the word "bomb". Bombs are "threatening". Therefore they are "bomb threats". Isn't authoritarian logic fun? --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com "| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Aug 21 16:44:29 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:44:29 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: <9607218406.AA840654179@smtplink.alis.ca> Message-ID: <199608211933.OAA29688@manifold.algebra.com> jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca wrote: > Nota: Quebec recently held a referendum on seperation from Canada.=20 > Just talk about secession of a state in the U.S., and you'll quickly see wh= > ich > country makes political ideas illegal. > OK, so what would happen if I organized a party with the proclaimed goal of secession of Oklahoma from the United States? - Igor. From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 21 16:52:24 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:52:24 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960821192836.00ecde40@mail.teleport.com> At 12:02 PM 8/21/96 EST, jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca wrote: >Nota: Quebec recently held a referendum on seperation from Canada. >Just talk about secession of a state in the U.S., and you'll quickly see which >country makes political ideas illegal. It did not seem to stop the secessionist movement in Alaska (at least when I was there). But then that was before the Feds started taking a more active role in Alaskan politics... (Especially with their involvement to get pot recriminalized back during the Reagan administration.) You expect the state to allow challenges to its authority? And lose its omnipotent status? "It takes a Village to raise a child." - Number 2 --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com "| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From alexf at iss.net Wed Aug 21 16:56:51 1996 From: alexf at iss.net (Alex F) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:56:51 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: <199608211955.PAA01059@phoenix.iss.net> > At 06:09 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > >On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > > > >> I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of spamming > >> here? Is spamming free speech? > > > >Yes. > > No. [snip] Freedom of Speech includes freedom FROM speech. IOW, if it starts infringing on your rights, then it stops. Spam is unsolicited, commercial email, and it could possibly be argued that just as the spammer has the right to say whatever it is that he wants, we also have the right not to get his email. This can also get very convoluted. Besides that, it's just impolite. Alex F =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Alex F alexf at iss.net Marketing Specialist Internet Security Systems =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 21 16:57:31 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:57:31 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Airport legal question Message-ID: <199608211952.MAA00934@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:37 PM 8/20/96 -0700, William Knowles wrote: >Lucky, > >>I know that it is a violation of federal law to joke about explosives at >>the X-ray machine. Would an "I love Explosives" sticker on carry-on >>luggage violate any laws? > >Dunno, But you might get a kick out this from The Chicago Reader that >published a list of the "bomb threats" made at O'Hare International >airport a few weeks back. >7/23: "I don't have a bomb in the bag." >7/24: "Well no, I left my pipe bomb at home." >8/1: "It's not as if we were Swedish and here to blow up the airport." I wonder how they determined that the lines above were "bomb threats." Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Wed Aug 21 16:58:25 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:58:25 +0800 Subject: [Noise] RE: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <9607218406.AA840671790@smtplink.alis.ca> jim bell wrote: >The Net public is getting less and less tolerant of obvious bias on the part >of those who report the news. The Times has some potential >(undisplayed) bias that we need to be on the lookout for, but the Post is >actively engaging in bias in its news stories, NOW. My God! Could Chomsky be right after all? James A favorite story on Bosnia was an interview I saw with Noam Chomsky and Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie who had led the Canadian forces in Bosnia. The interviewer asked Chomsky some question about the real goals of the West in this crisis and he gave some biting response about them having no motivation to resolve the conflict but simply appear to be acting while continuing to follow various policies that were cynical, amoral and contradictory to their stated public goals. Lewis Mackenzie is then asked to rebut this view but instead he agrees with Chomsky's analysis and goes on to give specific examples that he faced first hand. More Canadiana: The man who recently snuck into the Canadian Prime Minister's residence and tried to assassinate him was released from jail last week after serving three months. Fortunately, he did not call him names. From eagle at armory.com Wed Aug 21 17:02:59 1996 From: eagle at armory.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:02:59 +0800 Subject: RC4 RC2 & MD5??? Message-ID: <9608211258.aa00158@deepthought.armory.com> I assume then that the Netscape encryption is Symetric Key, so how do RC4 RC2 and MD5 compare and contast? TIA -- According to John Perry Barlow: *What is EFF?* "Jeff Davis is a truly gifted trouble-maker." *email * *** O U T L A W S On The E L E C T R O N I C F R O N T I E R **** US Out Of Cyberspace!!! Join EFF Today! *email * From 0005514706 at mcimail.com Wed Aug 21 17:05:01 1996 From: 0005514706 at mcimail.com (Michael Wilson) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:05:01 +0800 Subject: Remailer chain design docs? Message-ID: <04960821191740/0005514706DC1EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Would somebody be so kind as to point me at the design documentation for remailers and chain remailers? I feel a need to code, and want to see the design on the current systems before I jump in. Danke, MW From gary at systemics.com Wed Aug 21 17:09:39 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:09:39 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <321B4FB3.1CFBAE39@systemics.com> Asgaard wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > There are technological fixes which I would favor over attempts to ban > > unwanted messages. > > In the meantime, before these technological fixes are easily implemented, > what is the proper way to handle unwanted commercial mail? > > 1) delete immediately > > 2) reply with 'Fuck off, morons!' > > 3) as in 2) plus an attachment of some 1Mb file > > 4) as in 3) plus a CC to the postmaster of the sending site > > What if the spam says: 'Do only reply to this if you want > further contact with us' etc? > > Does anybody have good advice, including risks for retaliation > from the vendors/postmasters for such 're-spam'? I always send a quick one liner - "Please send me more information". Often I'll ask a stupid question too ("Does your software work in France?"). If more people did this, then they'd have to choose their victims a bit more carefully in the future (assuming of course they're trying to sell something). Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From declan at well.com Wed Aug 21 17:18:51 1996 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:18:51 +0800 Subject: Republican and Democratic party platforms on technology Message-ID: ============ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:35:49 -0500 To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Subject: Republican and Democratic party platforms on technology Sender: owner-fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Attached is an excerpt from the GOP's 1996 platform, provided by a Republican Senate staffer. All keystroking errors mine -- this plank doesn't seem to have been nailed into the rnc.org web site yet. While the Republicans certainly are no fast friends of online liberties -- recall Dole cosponsored an "anti-cyberporn" bill worse than the CDA -- they've been moving in the right direction on crypto. This plank shows that as a party, they're starting to take online privacy seriously. Let's see what the Democrats do at their convention. I've attached relevant excerpts from the platform committee's report, but the only coherent theme I found is increased government spending. (Contrast both parties with the Libertarians, which have a sterling commitment to online civil liberties, reflected in the platform approved at their convention last month.) -Declan --- [The rest of the platform is at http://www.rnc.org/hq/platform96/] The 1996 Republican Party Platform Excerpt: Science, Technology, and Innovation in the 21st Century Our goal is to empower the American people by using the benefits of advanced science to improve their quality of life without undue restraint from government. Our bottom line is more jobs, better jobs, and a higher standard of living for the families of America. We believe the marketplace, not bureaucrats, can determine which technologies best meet the needs of the public. [...] The communications revolution empowers individuals, enhances health care, opens up opportunity for rural areas, and strengthens families and institutions. A Dole-led Congress passed the Telecommunications Act of 1996 to promote the full and open competition and freedom of choice in the telecommunications marketplace. In contrast, the Clinton-Gore Administration repeatedly defended big-government regulation. This micromanagement of the Information Age is contrary to America's Information Super Highway. We support the broadest access to telecommunications networks and services, based upon marketplace capabilties. ***The Internet today is the most staggering example of how the Information Age can and will enhance the lives of Americans everywhere. To further this explosion of new-found freedoms and opportunities, privacy, through secured communications, has never been more important. Bob Dole and the Republican Party will promote policies that ensure that the U.S. remains the world leader in science, technology, and innovation.*** [Emphasis mine. --Declan] --- http://www.democrats.org/party/convention/pltdft96-2.html The Report of the Platform Committee to the 1996 Democratic National Convention Today's Democratic Party: Meeting America's Challenges, Protecting America's Values THE 1996 DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL PLATFORM [...] Technology. We know investments in technology drive economic growth, generate new knowledge, create new high-wage jobs, build new industries, and improve our quality of life. In the face of Republican efforts to undermine America's dedication to innovation, President Clinton and the Democratic Party have fought to maintain vital investments in science and technology. We remember that government investment in technology is responsible for the computer, for jet aircraft, and for the Internet -- no investments have ever paid off better, in jobs, in opportunity, or in growth. [...] Technology in the classroom. We must bring the 21st century into every classroom in America. There is a vast realm of knowledge waiting for our children to tap into. Computers are powerful tools to teach students to read better, write better, and understand math. President Clinton and Vice President Gore understand that technological literacy is essential to success in the new economy. The only way to achieve that for every student is to give them all access to a computer, good software, trained teachers, and the Internet -- and President Clinton and Vice President Gore have launched a partnership with high-tech companies, schools, state, and local governments to wire every classroom and library to the Information Superhighway by the year 2000. [...] The Clinton Administration is working to put wanted lists of parents who owe child support in the post office and on the Internet. President Clinton and Democrats in Congress insisted that the toughest possible child support enforcement be part of the new welfare reform plan -- including the President's plan to deny drivers licenses and professional licenses to people who do not pay their child support. ### From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 17:20:17 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:20:17 +0800 Subject: HP supporting GAK, export controls Message-ID: [Sorry, the last one went out without a subject] HP is in the process of ramroding a pro-GAK, pro-export control resolution through CommerceNet's public policy working group. Here are the details. HP is marketing several DES products that currently can not be sold abroad. In order to be allowed to sell these products, HP is willing to give the USG the following in return: 1. Support by CommerceNet to have GAK built into the (inevitable) domestic PKI. [Their presentation included the word "voluntary". When I asked what was meant by that, I got the reply "There are many interpretations of the word "voluntary"." Suffice to say there are fundamental differences in what I mean by "voluntary" and what their proposal would require the definition of "voluntary" to be.] 2. Support by CommerceNet for export restrictions on stronger forms of crypto than DES as well as restrictions on export of crypto for products not directly related (in HP's opinion) to ecommerce, such as email. This ill conceived attempt to use CommerceNet's clout as industry organization to liberalize export rules on HP's products, and those of a few other companies supporting HP in this effort, at a heavy cost to everybody else, must be stopped. Please let HP know how you feel about their initiative and encourage CommerceNet to adopt an anti-GAK, anti-export control position. --Lucky From jim at ACM.ORG Wed Aug 21 17:24:15 1996 From: jim at ACM.ORG (Jim Gillogly) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:24:15 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608212046.NAA23129@mycroft.rand.org> "Paul S. Penrod" writes: >Practically, it would be better to allow and promote a technological >outlet for all of this, as it will never go away, so long as the medium >exists. The technological outlet already exists: polite marketers use Web pages, so that people who are interested in their offerings can find them using one of the search engines. Market droids (get over it, dude) are unwilling to reach only people who are interested in their products. Jim Gillogly Trewesday, 29 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 20:45 From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 17:25:04 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:25:04 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: HP is in the process of ramroding a pro-GAK, pro-export control resolution through CommerceNet Here are the details. HP is marketing several DES products that currently can not be sold abroad. In order to be allowed to sell these products, HP is willing to give the USG the following in return: 1. Support by CommerceNet to have GAK built into the (inevitable) domestic PKI. 2. Support by CommerceNet for export restrictions on stronger forms of crypto than DES as well as restrictions on export of crypto for products not directly related (in HP This ill conceived attempt to use CommerceNet --Lucky From furballs at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 17:28:47 1996 From: furballs at netcom.com (Paul S. Penrod) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:28:47 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 5:16 AM 8/21/96, Paul S. Penrod wrote: > >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Ross Wright wrote: > > >> Market Droids???? As a salesman I take offence at this slur. > > Sales droids are subservient to market droids...sort of like R2D2, a sales > droid, getting his marching orders from C3PO, a market droid. > > > >As for spamming, I get enough of it via snail-mail, I don't want to see > >it in my Inbox too. And, for the record, there are lots of people out > >there who pay on the bulk charge, not by time. Sending advertising or > >junk mail to these folks costs them money, maybe not much for the one > >message you sent, but several thousand over a month of a quarter add up > >to real money. > > > >There is a time and place for legitimate advertising. I am sure that > >given time and impetus, a number of clear channel venues will open up to > >allow precision marketing and sales to happen electronicly. > > > >At the moment, it's bad nettiquette... > > The basic problem is that, unlike paper mail, it costs a sender essentially > nothing to send nearly any size file to as many people as he wishes. This > is the basic economic fact of the Net at this time. Until this eventually > changes, spamming will be with us. > > (I understand experts in the field of "spamming" have various names for > various flavors: spam, velveeta, jerky, etc. I'll call them all "unwanted > messages.") > > The problem is one of economics and allocation of costs. Other industries > have the same issues: > > * fax machines: costs of paper are borne by receiver, leading to high bills > when "junk faxes" are received (and hence some laws restricting such faxes) > > * cellular phones: receiver of calls usually is charged air time. Thus, > "junk calls" cost money. > > (My physical mailbox probably gets about $1 a day of junk mail, in terms of > postage paid. More, in terms of costs to print catalogs, fliers, freebies, > etc. It takes me about 20 seconds, tops, to decide what to discard > immediately and what to save, so at this point "their costs" > "my costs.") > > In my view, attempting to legislate what is "junk" and what is not junk is > misguided. (And I suspect it rarely works in halting junk mail.) Junk is in > the eye of the beholder. > > There are technological fixes which I would favor over attempts to ban > unwanted messages. > > --Tim May > I agree about the technological fixes. When enough people figure out or are shown how to block unwanted messages, the economics of scale disappear real fast. Unfortunately, there will always be a ready supply of the unwitting, and government's reaction is to legislate rather than educate. Practically, it would be better to allow and promote a technological outlet for all of this, as it will never go away, so long as the medium exists. ...Paul From droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com Wed Aug 21 17:43:20 1996 From: droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:43:20 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level Message-ID: <9608212008.AA21573@spirit.aud.alcatel.com> > > It's also clear to me that for E-mail, you don't want transport level > > security for the system; you want "object" security, that is, digital > > signature and encryption of the mail message. > > Yup. This is a frequently missed point. Link security and object > security have different uses at different times -- and people confuse > them way too often. > With the question of "Do you want object security or link security for email?" The answer is (as with all security questions) "What is your threat model?" For example: Your company does not have mailreaders capable of doing encryption (at least not easy enough for average users). Your supplier has the same situation. You have accepted this fact for the time being, and trust that your employees won't tinker with the email if they want their job for long. However, the email you send to your supplier and vice-versa should not go over the Internet unencrypted as it potentially contains sensitive information. So, a link-level encryption that the two co-operating sys-admins can set up would be a good solution. This would be easier to set up and maintain than a encrypted router tunnel through the net, and solve your problem. Of course, I'll submit that object security on email would be preferable, but that might not be pratical right now. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Oelke Alcatel Network Systems droelke at aud.alcatel.com Richardson, TX From mthompso at qualcomm.com Wed Aug 21 17:43:28 1996 From: mthompso at qualcomm.com (Michelle KC5KYO) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:43:28 +0800 Subject: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti... In-Reply-To: <9607218406.AA840670454@smtplink.alis.ca> Message-ID: > I do not believe that freedom of speech in the U.S.A. extends to actively > agitating for secession or the overthrow of the federal government. The right to discuss revolt or secession or the overthrow of the federal government, it seems to me, is given below: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ... " Now this is the Declaration of Independence, and not the Constitution, but it seems to me that the right to discuss "agitating for secession or the overthrow of the federal government" is protected. Michelle From rich at c2.org Wed Aug 21 17:44:48 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:44:48 +0800 Subject: [NOISE]CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608211235.IAA30204@osceola.gate.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Jim Ray wrote: > [I said] > > Oh, I don't think it's impossible or even unlikely that at least > > some of the > > groups lumped together as "contras" were involved in drug > > smuggling, and I > > think it's reasonable to have different views regarding how much > > money was > > involved and who knew what when (my view is very little, and > > medium). > > Anyone who says "very little" money is involved in any aspect of > the cocaine importation trade definitely doesn't live in Miami. The aspect of the cocaine trade in Miami that is tied up with a conspiracy to kidnap the mascot of the Miami Dolphins involves "very little" money. This is not to suggest that the cocaine importation trade as a whole involves "very little" money. The supposed Contra Connection -- which as originally made up was not supposed to involve Miami, by the way, but primarily CA, LA, and TX -- involves "very little" money relative to the Contra budget, and even less considering how little was supposed to have been passed on, and "very little" money relative to the total drug trade. > >What I > > object to are conspiracy theories along the lines of: > > > > 1. The Reagan Administration used the Contras to smuggle crack > > to the US in > > a deliberate attempt at genocide against Black people. (I > > heard this a > > lot, though seldom in so many words, on KPFK in the mid-80's; > > the SJ Merc > > series certainly has this as a subtext.) > > I never said that, and I object to calling something a "conspiracy > theory" just because it's politically inconvenient. Me too. Only wacky conspiracy theories should be called wacky conspiracy theories. No, you never suggested the above -- as I said, I heard it mostly on KPFK, a far-left, "Black Nationalist"-friendly radio station in Los Angeles associated with the Pacifica Foundation, in the mid-80's. It would be rather difficult to confuse them with you. :-) I include this example to indicate where the story originated. > > 2. Clinton was a CIA agent involved in the Contra drug-smuggling > > CaBaL. > > He was governor of Arkansas when Reagan was President of the United > States. Do the search I already gave you, and read the articles. > mena /p cocaine My academic advisor was Terry Karl, a rather sharp critic of the CIA and a specialist on Central America. I spent a decade on Latin American policy issues. I personally spoke with Mr. Calero at a (well-picketed) reception at Stanford in 1989. I had classmates from Nicaragua. Speculative rumor-mongering by Beltway journalists who can't even read Spanish doesn't impress me. > > > It is a major, bipartisan, Watergate-style but bigger > > > scandal, and the strange bedfellows in the media who were > > doing a > > > halfway decent job of covering it [The Wall Street Journal and > > > "High Times" magazine(!)] have fallen strangely silent on the > > > subject as the election approaches. Hmmmmm. > > > > 4. Anything where vague unsupported asserions are thrown out, > > followed by > > a Hmmmmm (sorry). > > OK, looks like I have to say it again, and remember this is NOT me, > it's those conspiracy theorists at CBS News, printed in that > radical purveyor of vague unsupported asserions...The Wall Street > Journal: > > "The FAA, FBI, Customs, CIA, Justice, DEA and the IRS were > all involved in Mena. They won't say how they were involved, > but they will tell you there is nothing there." -- Bill Plante, > CBS News Correspondent, & Michael Singer, Producer, CBS News, > New York. [In Tuesday, May 3, 1994's Wall Street Journal > letters to the editor section.] Look it up. In other words, they deny it, so it must be true. > I am not a journalist, but it sometimes seems I have a better > institutional memory than they do. This story was covered poorly, > even though there was/is plenty there, because of politics and > power masquerading as "national security." The story is there for > journalists who want to risk covering it, but the trail is getting > cold, and yes, some loons have latched onto it, due in part to the > vacuum in "legitimate" media coverage. This is backwards. The loons on the left started the story. In 1986, the press and academia investigated the story, and concluded there was really nothing to it. Even Chomsky, who welcomes any opportunity to "prove" a world conspiracy against leftists, rejected it (this is the same guy who bought the Allende assassination myth until shortly before Barricada and Mistral retracted it). Ten years later, another set of loons is trying to interest the press in a laundered story. A couple of CBS reporters were trolled, briefly. > [This will be my final word on this subject in this forum.] > Likewise. -rich From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 21 17:50:28 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:50:28 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My first real job was as a clerk in the New York Merchantile Exchange, back in the days when we stood on platforms, writing trade prices on the wallboards with chalk. I should have stayed around, most white males who did eventually moved up to being a floor trader. From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 21 17:51:21 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:51:21 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "insulting the Monarch" It's called lese Majeste, knave. It's still a VERY serious offense in Thailand. From bdavis at thepoint.net Wed Aug 21 17:52:25 1996 From: bdavis at thepoint.net (Brian Davis) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:52:25 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <960820183645_506047852@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > Rush Limbaugh reports: > > That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". > > The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of us) > were mentioned that they deemed threatening. "I hope you die." And the couple was arrestd for disorderly conduct by Chicago police. Any possible federal charges for threatening a president in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 871 await a determination of the seriousness of the statement, in context with the wife's conduct, by prosecutors. I predict no action. EBD > > Ahhh, good to live in a free country.... > From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 21 17:57:56 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:57:56 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608212138.OAA07368@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:47 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > >> Rush Limbaugh reports: >> >> That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". >> >> The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of us) >> were mentioned that they deemed threatening. > > >"I hope you die." Doesn't sound much like a "threat" to me. > And the couple was arrestd for disorderly conduct by >Chicago police. It sounds to me like the Chicops were just showing their "loyalty" by sitting on somebody, not that they believed any real crime had been committed. > Any possible federal charges for threatening a president >in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 871 await a determination of the >seriousness of the statement, in context with the wife's conduct, by >prosecutors. I predict no action. But it isn't even a "threat", regardless of how "serious" it was. The "I hope you die" part is, presumably, a statement of fact: She did, indeed, hope he dies. But I don't see how hoping this can be considered a threat, or even SAYING she's hoping this is, likewise. Makes me wonder whether visiting one of these appearances with a "Clinton Doll" and a bunch of pins, and visibly inserting those pins into the doll (while uttering various strange incantations), would constitute a "threat." Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be protected by thugs. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 21 17:58:03 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:58:03 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Airport legal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > the X-ray machine. Would an "I love Explosives" sticker on carry-on > luggage violate any laws? No. You'd be released. Eventually. After your flight had departed, perhaps? From carolann at censored.org Wed Aug 21 18:02:41 1996 From: carolann at censored.org (Censored Girls Anonymous) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:02:41 +0800 Subject: Ruritania Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960821191809.377f6c4c@primenet.com> The Legend of Ruritania There was once a far away land called Ruritania, and in this land there was a strange phenomenon -- all the trees that grew there were transparent. In the old days, the people had lived in mud huts. But now, high-tech wood technology had been developed, and in this new age of wood, everyone in Ruritania found that their homes were all 100% see through. Now, until this point, no one ever thought of allowing the police to spy on someone's home. But the new technology made this tempting. This being a civilized country, however, warrants were required to use binoculars and watch someone in their home. The police, taking advantage of this, would get warrants to use binoculars and peer in to see what was going on. Occasionally, they would use binoculars without a warrant, but everyone pretended that this didn't happen. One day, a smart man invented paint -- and the people found that if they painted their houses, suddenly the police couldn't watch all their actions at will. Things would go back to the way they were in the old age -- completely private. Indignant, the state decided to try to require that all homes have video cameras installed into every nook and cranny. "After all", they said, "with this new 'paint' development, crime could run rampant. Installing video cameras doesn't mean that the police get any new capability -- they are just keeping the old one." A wise man pointed out that citizens were not obligated to make the lives of the police easy, that the police had survived all through the mud hut age without being able to watch the citizens at will, and that Ruritania was a civilized country where not everything that was expedient was permitted. For instance, in a neighboring country, it had been discovered that torture was an extremely effective way to solve crimes. Ruritania had banned this practice long ago, in spite of its expedience. Indeed, "why have warrants at all", he asked, "if we are interested only in expedience?" A famous paint technologist, Dorothy Quisling, intervened however. She noted that people might take photographs of children masturbating should this new paint technology be widely deployed without safeguards, and the law was passed. Soon it was discovered that some citizens were covering their mouths while speaking to each other, thus preventing the police from reading their lips through the video cameras. This had to be prevented, the police said. After all, it was preventing them from conducting their lawful surveillance. The wise man pointed out that the police had never before been allowed to listen in on people's homes, but Dorothy Quisling pointed out that people might use this new invention of covering their mouths with veils to discuss the kidnapping and mutilation of children. Now, no one in the legislature wanted to be accused of being in favor of mutilating children, but then again, no one wanted to interfere in people's rights to wear what they liked, so a compromise was reached whereby all homes had to have microphones installed in each room to accompany the video cameras. The wise man lamented few if any child mutilations had ever been solved by the old lip reading technology, but it was too late -- the new law was passed and microphones were installed everywhere. However, soon it was discovered that this was insufficient to prevent citizens from hiding information from the authorities, because some of them would cleverly speak in languages that the police could not understand. So, another new law was proposed to force all citizens to speak at all times only in Ruritanian, and, for good measure, to require that they speak clearly and distinctly near the microphones. "After all", Dorothy Quisling pointed out, "they might be using the opportunity to speak in private to mask terrorist activities!" Terrorism struck terror into everyone's hearts, and they rejoiced at the brilliance of this new law. Meanwhile, the wise man talked one evening to his friends on how all of this was making a sham of the constitution of Ruritania, of which all Ruritanians were proud. "Why", he asked, "are we obligated to sacrifice all our freedom and privacy to make the lives of the police easier? There isn't any real evidence that this makes any big dent in crime, anyway! All it does is make our privacy forfeit to the state!" However, the wise man made the mistake of saying this, as the new law required, in Ruritanian, clearly and distinctly, and near a microphone. Soon, the newly formed Ruritanian Secret Police arrived and took him off, and got him to confess to crimes by torturing him. Torture was, after all, far more efficient than the old methods, and had been recently instituted to stop the recent wave of people thinking obscene thoughts about tomatoes, which Dorothy Quisling noted was one of the major problems of the new age of plenty and joy. Member Internet Society - Certified BETSI Programmer - Webmistress *********************************************************************** Carol Anne Braddock (cab8) carolann at censored.org 206.42.112.96 My Homepage The Cyberdoc *********************************************************************** ------------------ PGP.ZIP Part [017/713] ------------------- M8H,),S$8G>&.WP(8IRA`-M['+`Q%&_C"">5-F%LX@<_Q$;*P'',Q$Z/AA[8M MF=O0H+*%(-S%&>S%+FS& http://dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/export/ From Scottauge at aol.com Wed Aug 21 18:03:04 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:03:04 +0800 Subject: Lesson 2 in cracking (cryptoanalysis 001) Message-ID: <960821175542_184580468@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-08-21 03:14:57 EDT, you write: > Okay wise guy. I'm going to give you a 14300 character string that > starts out Big deal. >How are you going to tell *what* I was talking about? I guarantee with >any message of practical length (i.e. not " ckosuuy") will have multiple >possibilities, particularly when you take things like mispellings, Mispelling are an acknowledge means of screwing up the algorithms I gave you. However, they are usually close to the original spelling. In addition, once most of the cipher has been dealt with, these fall into place quite nicely anyhow. >software artifacts ("----- BEGIN PGP --------" "X-Received ..." etc.) and So tell me what the difference is between a bunch of messages with th, st, ya da ya da and messages with instances of say 27 27 27 27 27 obviously the dashes from your pgp insert. If anything, you've added more ammunition against your self. Think expanded pattern matching if you can something like pa*tern... >deliberate attempts to throw you off. That's why it's unbreakable - by >anyone! Including the user, after all, you show a transformation by setting all vowels to the front, then a transformation into numbers, a shuffle by number order, then a transformation back into letters. During decryption: How do you place the vowels into the correct position? How do you place the numbers into the previous order before ascending sort them? You are a , lets see a good name I was once placed with, a TROLL. The first pot was not to insult you more so than to inform others of attacks. This post can be considered a personal attack, you TROLL. From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 21 18:03:37 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:03:37 +0800 Subject: telco's vs x-phones Message-ID: <199608211952.MAA00938@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:19 AM 8/21/96 -0700, Brian D Williams wrote: > > >In a reply to Vipul Ved Prakash, Jim Bell wrote: > >>Assume 30 cents per meter per fiber for cabled fiber, or about $10 >(US) per meter for 36-fiber cable. > >Siecore plain vanilla 36 fiber singlemode list $ 1.82 a foot, $5.46 >a yard In other words, it's a fact of 5+ cheaper than I thought... >>Each fiber pair should be able to handle approximately 1 million >>conversations at current data rates, or a total of 18 million >>conversations for that 18-pair cable, or 9.5 trillion >>conversation-minutes. > >At current data rates (OC-48 Sonet) 32,256 voice channels per >fiber, 580,608 total for the fiber. Well, I think I blew a decimal point, there. Even so, semi-leading edge systems do about twice as well... > >Off by a factor of roughly 36 at this point. However, the errors partially cancel, so I'm actually off by a factor of 2. > >>Multiply this cost by 10 for right of way, trenching, repeaters, >>and other auxiliary hardware, or $100 per meter. This is probably >>just a ballpark estimate, but... > >Off by a factor of at least 10 not counting switching equipment. In which direction? BTW, keep in mind I'm considering long-haul LD links between cities and states, NOT the kind of trenching that requires digging up city streets most of the way. I don't doubt that some portions of a coast-to-coast link are substantially more expensive than $100 per meter, but as a proportion of the total length they are very small. >In a reply to me Jim bell wrote: > >>The long distance companies are not "using local networks," your >>customers are...to connect to those long distance companies. And >>any payments LD companies make to you are, indeed, a subsidy. >>Tell me, how much is this _subsidy_, exactly? > >Who's using who is a matter of perspective. Which is why you're unwilling to call it a "subsidy." >Q) if you call a dog's tail a "leg" how many legs does a dog have? > >A) four, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. > >Point? The LD companies pay to use the RBOC's networks, calling it >a subsidy doesn't make it one, except maybe to you. If they don't >like it, they are free (or soon will be) to build their own, or use >someone elses. > >>As an alternative, the phone company would presumably be entitled >>to be served by phone lines, at say $30 per month or so, through >>which their customers reach them. $30 per month is $1 per day or >>4 cents per hour or about 0.07 cents per minute. 3 cents doesn't >>equal 0.07 cents, now does it?!? > >"Presumably be entitled?" The RBOC's currently charge what >regulations allow, if the regs go away, they will charge what the >market will pay. You're full of inconsistencies. First, you stated that the local/LD subsidies "went away with the breakup" (paraphrased) yet NOW you're saying "RBOC's currently charge what regulations allow." I suggest that if those regulations "allow" RBOC's to charge 3 cents per minute to LD companies, _that_is_the_subsidy_ that you claimed had "gone away." It's obvious that you don't want to use the dirty word "subsidy," but that's exactly what this thing is! You need to remember that unless a price is defined by negotiation in the free market, there remains a possibility that it contains an underlying subsidy. Since the whole purpose of the the payment from the LD company to the local co was as a subsidy, unless that payment disappears there is always a question of whether the subsidy remains. Apparently it does. The most obvious alternative, one that doesn't contain an obvious subsidy is a "per line per month" pricing system, where the number of lines counted is the maximum number of simultaneous calls that can be made through a given LD company at one time. (NOT the total number of customers that the LD company has.) >>How has this remaining SUBSIDY dropped over time, assuming it has? >>When is it scheduled to drop to zero? > >The rate has gone down since the regs are changing and competition >is increasing. I would be interested in hearing why you think it >will ever drop to zero. It's because the locals don't NEED a subsidy. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 21 18:05:15 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:05:15 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608210005.KAA12548@suburbia.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Julian Assange wrote: > Darwinism is working as well as it ever was. You may not like it, but > shit is being selected for. Well that sounds.... internally consistent. Oh my God. I'm a dinosaur. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 21 18:05:31 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:05:31 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <199608211645.JAA06426@netcom.netcom.com> Message-ID: qut at netcom.com (Skip, OBC) writes: > ! Jim McCoy wrote: > ! > qut at netcom.com (Skip) writes: > ! > > My suggestion number #1: > ! > > No moderation. > ! > > ! > Suggestion 1 on how to diminish the feeble S/N ratio on cypherpunks: > ! > > ! > make it a newsgroup > ! > Suggestion 2: > ! > make it an unmoderated newsgroup > ! > ! How about making it a robomoderated newsgroup with only one enforced > ! rule, forbidding any crossposting? > > If moderation, then why not moderator(s) who simply send out cancel > messages to everthing that is crossposted? Traditional moderated > newsgroups are technically inferior because all posts go through netnews > chokepoints and then depends on the moderator(s) who's inevitable > position has been the irresponsible one of keeping the position long > after they lose interest with the high volumes. Even if their was such > a person, there is still are chokepoint problem which is stupid to > engage in. > > In any case, creation of comp.org.cypherpunks in no way means gatewaying > or shutting down cypherpunks at toad.com . How about a NoCeM-moderated newsgroup? I.e., several parties can issue 'hide' NoCeM notices for whatever material they consider off-topic, including cross-posts. Several other parties can issue 'highlight' NoCeM's for articles they consider particularly worthy. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Wed Aug 21 18:08:11 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:08:11 +0800 Subject: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti... Message-ID: <9607218406.AA840670454@smtplink.alis.ca> Subject: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity jbugden at alis.com wrote: ! Nota: Quebec recently held a referendum on seperation from Canada. ! Just talk about secession of a state in the U.S., and you'll quickly see ! which country makes political ideas illegal. qut at netcom.com (Skip, OBC) >Exactly, we have freedom of speech alright, everone in the world does, >we're allowed to say "we don't believe you should remain in power," but >try to say, and mean, "we're going to try to take your power from you for >ourselves," and your group will very quickly find out the length of your >chains, the extent of our so called freedom. Actually, my comment was exactly the opposite. You may not be aware of what goes on with your neighbour to the north, but the province of Quebec currently has a government whose stated intention is independence from Canada. The recent public referendum for a mandate to seceed was defeated by a very small margin: 51% to 49% with 95% voter turnout. "Her majesty's loyal opposition" in the parliament (the Bloq Quebecois) has the same raison d'etre - Independence of Quebec from Canada. I do not believe that freedom of speech in the U.S.A. extends to actively agitating for secession or the overthrow of the federal government. James From shamrock at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 18:10:27 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:10:27 +0800 Subject: Any CPs in D.C.? Message-ID: I will be in D.C. through Saturday. I'd like to meet some Cypherpunks that feel like getting to know what Lucky looks like :-) If you are in D.C., give me a call at my hotel. (202) 682-0111 x440 --Lucky From rich at c2.org Wed Aug 21 18:24:47 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:24:47 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: <9607218406.AA840654179@smtplink.alis.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca wrote: > Nota: Quebec recently held a referendum on seperation from Canada. > Just talk about secession of a state in the U.S., and you'll quickly see > which country makes political ideas illegal. You mean stuff like this? :-) http://www.softdisk.com/comp/dan/politics/parties.html#Seccession The one about the Provisional Government of the Republic of Texas is a hoot. The reason you don't hear people wanting to secede from the US is, well, they don't want to, not because we can't take it. That little incident in the 1860's was really an international conflict, not a secession. Some other entertaining sites that would probably be frowned upon in lily-livered Canada include: http://www.nationalist.org/platform.html#Social http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/na2.html#aryan Back to Zundel, the full text of the Supreme Court decision is at http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/supreme-court/ The reasoning is rather different than what you said, but maybe you were thinking of the earlier postal decision, which I haven't read. The latest attempt at a criminal charge never even got to trial. I also just received a copy of Judge Heald's ruling on the citizenship matter. Unfortunately, it's a second-generation Xerox that my OCR software just looks at and laughs. I'll key it in manually if I ever find the time. Essentially, it says the government either has to give him citizenship or change the law, because the only body that is legally empowered to advise the Crown whether he's a threat to Canadian society or "of bad charater" has already concluded that he is, so it can't be objective. Very strange reasoning, but I agree with the outcome. -rich From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 21 18:25:05 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:25:05 +0800 Subject: US Taxes on X-Pats (getting off topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > "we killed the natives so this land is our land and the rest of you f@*k-off" The current group of "Native Americans" were not the first on the land. From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Wed Aug 21 18:25:32 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:25:32 +0800 Subject: www.usdoj.gov http://156.46.199.41/ Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960821224538.00678be8@vertexgroup.com> a mirror of the hack is at http://156.46.199.41/ From jad at dsddhc.com Wed Aug 21 18:26:27 1996 From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:26:27 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960821211509.006afc7c@labg30> At 06:10 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Skip wrote: >The Subject: line says it all. > >My suggestion number #1: > >No moderation. I'd vote "no" to converting this list into a newsgroup. I think universal access to e-mail is more guaranteed than access to a news-server, especially for those of us hidden away behind our Gestapo-run firewalls. The mailing list flies quite nicely through them. Plus, we have the added benefit of only getting crypto-related spam thrown at us occasionally, instead of the nearly ubiquitous "Call 1-900-HOT-4U" postings that seem to flood every Usenet group. ('Course, I seem to recall a www.slut.com letter from someone a few days ago...) Plus, sci.crypt exists for those who can't get enough here. As an aside, if an RFD should be called, to whom should we forward our discussion? (It's been many years since I really cared about Usenet.) John -- J. Deters "Captain's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull." +-------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: jad at dsddhc.com (work) jad at pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | PGP Key ID: 768 / 15FFA875 | +-------------------------------------------------------+ From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 21 18:27:26 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:27:26 +0800 Subject: [rant] Re: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960821203026.00c82314@mail.teleport.com> At 05:49 PM 8/20/96 +0000, Ross Wright wrote: >On Or About 20 Aug 96, 16:23, Jim Gillogly wrote: >> >> Vipul Ved Prakash writes: >> >I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of >> >spamming here? Is spamming free speech? >> > >> I oppose spamming because it's rude and inefficient, lowering the >> S/N everywhere it happens. Market droids > >Market Droids???? As a salesman I take offence at this slur. It is a mild term compared to some of the things that could be said about sales. I have dealt with far too many sales people. Few of them knew anything about the products that they were selling. (This is especially true of the computer field. "Do you know the difference between a computer salesman and a car salesman? The car salesman knows how to drive.") Many people have a bad view of sales. Mine is because of the times I have had to create the programs that sales had promised, but had no clue as to what could and could not be done, or was even practical. Getting time lines set by people who have no clue as to how long it will take or even if what they want is possible. (More than once I have received requests based on the pipe dreams of some idiot in sales that contained contradictory requirements and/or absurd time lines.) Most sales people do not care about what it takes to do something, all they care about is making the sale. What they tell the rube in the course of selling it does not matter. (Someone else will take care of it.) But then, rarely does truth enter into the matter of sales... Sales people have a bad reputation for a very good reason. If they actually had a basic understanding of what they were selling, and were not so untrustworthy as to not commit to things that are not deliverable, they would have that reputation. The only people I have more contempt for than salesmen are salesmen for multi-level companies. (Except maybe government officials, but that is on a case by case basis...) >> favor it because it's >> cheap, and no matter how many people they piss off bigtime, they >> make some sales. > >Even make sales to people who are pissed off at first... "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." The biggest problem I have had with spammers in the last month or so are the ones who insist on forging e-mail reply addresses. Of course, being from a sales background, they were too incompetent to cover up their tracks. (Remember: If you are going to post spam with a forged return address, DON'T do it from your own uucp address. The send path makes a great big arrow pointing back to you.) Spammers are more like the people who call you at home and try to sell you things you do not want over the phone with recorded messages. Sales on the Internet can be done and done without pissing off people. But what it takes is a shred of a clue. By violating netiquite, the spammer has shown that he lacks vital connection to anything resembling a clueserver. Furthermore, much of what is spammed is either illegal (variants on the "make money fast" idea of pyramid scheme) and/or posted to entire hierarchies of groups. (Most mail readers will not allow you to mark a message as read in all of the newsgroups it is posted to. And most of the Windows newsreader do not have killfiles or they are buggy to the point of unusability.) I certainly do not want to read this crap over and over again. It is this repeated abuse that gets spammers mailbombed, feeds killed, etc. (And I will not even go into the type of sales promoted by Canter and Siegal in their book on Internet sales. Of course, considering their background (i.e. lawyers for the Church of Scientology) it does not surprise me a whole lot...) --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From lucifer at dhp.com Wed Aug 21 18:28:05 1996 From: lucifer at dhp.com (Mixmaster) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:28:05 +0800 Subject: Security Dynamics <-> Microsoft Message-ID: <199608212202.SAA17249@dhp.com> http://www.briefing.com/storystk.htm 15:20 ET ****** SECURITY DYNAMICS TECHNOLOGIES (SDTI) 60 +4 1/4. Maker of security products used to protect and manage access to computer-based information is seeing its stock get a lift from news that company's RSA unit has reached licensing agreement with Microsoft (MSFT 122 1/4 -1 1/8). In return for technical cooperation and additional licensing rights for integration of RSA's technology with Microsoft's cryptoapi, Microsoft will license cryptoapi to RSA, including rights to incorporate cryptoapi into RSA's toolkit products. According to company, RSA will receive an ongoing stream of revenue from MSFT based on the use of patented RSA technology. Also, company will license software to MSFT that will enable it to include support for SDTI's hardware tokens and ace/server authentication products in future versions of Windows NT and MSFT Internet Information Server. From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Wed Aug 21 18:33:23 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:33:23 +0800 Subject: www.usdoj.gov mirror2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960821230541.00637930@vertexgroup.com> http://www.netlite.com/ameritek/usdoj is faster than that other site From haystack at cow.net Wed Aug 21 18:35:31 1996 From: haystack at cow.net (Bovine Remailer) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:35:31 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <9608212250.AA14289@cow.net> The Postal service is working on a new postage method, 2 key signature, which will be unique to each "postal unit" ( stamp ) the signature will be logged when you buy the stamps....No more anon. snail mail...... Just thought you'd like to know ! From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Wed Aug 21 18:41:21 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:41:21 +0800 Subject: 20 year key ? Message-ID: <199608212246.PAA09169@jobe.shell.portal.com> Is there such a thing as a "20 YEAR KEY " would it be a 2048 bit or larger or what ? From chris230 at juno.com Wed Aug 21 18:48:06 1996 From: chris230 at juno.com (Chris J Samuelson) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:48:06 +0800 Subject: Spamming In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960821145232.006fe294@tansoft.com> Message-ID: <19960821.170816.6486.1.chris230@juno.com> On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:52:32 -0400 "James C. Sewell" writes: >At 06:09 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >>On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> >>> I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of >spamming >>> here? Is spamming free speech? >> >>Yes. > >No. I think we can all (most) agree that spam-email is like >junk-snailmail. >In that case there are a few things to consider: > > 1. Junkmail requires the SENDER to pay for it, not the recipient. > 2. Junkmail is under the full authority of the Postmaster. If > they do anything illegal they have an authority to which they > must answer and may face criminal charges for. > 3. You can't legally stuff mailboxes by driving around the >neighborhood. > It is against the law for me to walk up to your mailbox and put > something in it. Should the same be true of emailboxes? > 4. Junkmail is usually at a lower priority than "real" mail and > due to costs is usually easily identifiable. Email isn't. > > And one relating to only email: > > I don't want to have to spend 10 minutes letting Eudora sort > through my mailbox because my filter rules are so numerous and > complex due to me trying to block spam. > > We must remember that the First Amendment does not allow us to say >any thing at any time via any medium we choose. There are limits >to it, usually in the name of public safety and harassment. There >should be similar limits in the Internet. > I'm not saying we shouldn't let you tell others how get rich quick >but that you should not be allowed to mail to *@*.* just to tell the >world how great we are. > > Jim > >Jim Sewell - jims at tansoft.com Tantalus Incorporated - Key West, FL > > Why should the spammers pay for it, any more than anyone else should. They are still in some way paying for the E-Mail I assume, by keeping up a server or paying someone else for the convienince of E-Mail. If they tried to force spammers to pay money they would have to have a way to decide if someone was spamming.A good excuse to read E-Mail? From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 19:53:28 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:53:28 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: At 6:47 PM 8/21/96, Brian Davis wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > >> Rush Limbaugh reports: >> >> That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". >> >> The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of us) >> were mentioned that they deemed threatening. > > >"I hope you die." And the couple was arrestd for disorderly conduct by >Chicago police. Any possible federal charges for threatening a president >in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 871 await a determination of the >seriousness of the statement, in context with the wife's conduct, by >prosecutors. I predict no action. Well, I agree that saying "I hope you die" is a tad bit more serious than "You suck, and those boys died." If these additional words were spoken, why didn't the SS reveal them early on? (Or, if they did, why did the news reports not mention them?) Personally, I would never utter such words, even to Clinton. Or Dole. Tacky, even if one dislikes the Prez. But I agree that "no action" is pretty likely. "I hope you die" has been a time-honored insult at least since I was a kindergartner, and presumably for many decades prior to this. Hardly an active threat. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 19:54:19 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:54:19 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity Message-ID: At 7:33 PM 8/21/96, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca wrote: >> Nota: Quebec recently held a referendum on seperation from Canada.=20 >> Just talk about secession of a state in the U.S., and you'll quickly see wh= >> ich >> country makes political ideas illegal. >> > >OK, so what would happen if I organized a party with the proclaimed goal >of secession of Oklahoma from the United States? > > - Igor. Almost certainly nothing. I believe there is an active secessionist movement in Alaska, and nothing has happened to them. (This does not mean they would ever be allowed to succeed in seceeding, of course.) --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 19:58:06 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:58:06 +0800 Subject: Ruritania Message-ID: At 7:18 PM 8/21/96, Censored Girls Anonymous wrote: > The Legend of Ruritania > >There was once a far away land called Ruritania, and in this land there was >a strange phenomenon -- all the trees that grew there were transparent. >In the old days, the people had lived in mud huts. But now, high-tech wood ....... >to stop the recent wave of people thinking obscene thoughts about tomatoes, >which Dorothy Quisling noted was one of the major problems of the new age >of plenty and joy. >Member Internet Society - Certified BETSI Programmer - Webmistress >*********************************************************************** >Carol Anne Braddock (cab8) carolann at censored.org 206.42.112.96 Carol, I see no attribution for this. Did you write it? It looks very familiar, like something that was posted to the Cypherpunks list a couple of years ago. (I seem to recall Perry Metzger writing a similar, or even identical, piece.) If you wrote it, great. But if someone else wrote it, you should definitely mention this, and give a name if you have it. If you know someone besides yourself wrote it, but the name was unattached to the copy you got, this should also be mentioned. Again, if you wrote it, great. And I apologize for even hinting that you did not. But it sure looks familiar. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 20:12:15 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:12:15 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: At 12:55 PM 8/21/96, Asgaard wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > >> There are technological fixes which I would favor over attempts to ban >> unwanted messages. > >In the meantime, before these technological fixes are easily implemented, >what is the proper way to handle unwanted commercial mail? > >1) delete immediately > >2) reply with 'Fuck off, morons!' > >3) as in 2) plus an attachment of some 1Mb file > >4) as in 3) plus a CC to the postmaster of the sending site Well, this actually just happened to me. I got a long message from the "Computer Currents" folks, for Yet Another Net Newsletter, "Inside Currents," saying they had added my name to their list and that if I wished to be removed I should a) paste a certain reply form into a section at the end of the message, b) readdress the reply to a person handling unsubscribes, c) blah blah blah. Instead, I just hit "Reply" and sent the message back to them. I wasn't sure if the message would go out to the original list or not, nor did I care. I didn't ask to be subscribed to their list, I wasn't interested in learning their indiosyncratic procedure for removing one's name, and they should have set up their distribution list so as not to allow recipients to post to the entire list (it is, after all, not a mailing list intended for postings by recipients). Well, my message and dozens of similar reply messages from others went out to the "Inside Currents" list, provoking an avalanche of even more replies, bounces, etc. "Computer Currents" is now feeling intense heat over this episode. (My latest message, sent two days ago, was entitled "Fuck "Computer Currents,"" and included my "How to Make a Pipe Bomb" sig. It hasn't come back to me, so maybe CC figured out how to turn off their spammish features.) (Hey, "spammish" is a nice word. Hackers can say, "Yeah, I took Spammish in high school.") --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 20:23:30 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:23:30 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: At 6:04 PM 8/21/96, Gary Howland wrote: >I always send a quick one liner - "Please send me more information". >Often I'll ask a stupid question too ("Does your software work in >France?"). If more people did this, then they'd have to choose their >victims a bit more carefully in the future (assuming of course they're >trying to sell something). As I said in my last message, I don't even do this--I just bounce it back to them. I see no need to "ask questions" (such as "Does it work in France?") to, perhaps, "establish legitimacy." If they sent it to me, I can send it back. Simple. And if their software is set up in a brain-damaged way, so that my bouncing it back to them also sends it out to their list, so much the better...at least in terms of helping to anger their potential customers. --Tim May (By the way, some of you younger folks may not remember all the creative ways people used to have to deal with unwanted junk mail. For "return postage provided" replies, they would often attach the return forms to large packages of stuff (sometimes even organic, stinky stuff) and let the junk mailer eat the postage charges at his end. Or they'd fill out the "get free stuff" forms with the addresses of local officials.) We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From stevenw at best.com Wed Aug 21 20:35:05 1996 From: stevenw at best.com (Steven Weller) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:35:05 +0800 Subject: RISKS: Microsoft Explorer security hole Message-ID: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:12:59 -0400 From: felten at CS.Princeton.EDU (Ed Felten) Subject: Internet Explorer Security Problem We have discovered a security flaw in the current version (3.0) of Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser running under Windows 95. An attacker could exploit the flaw to run any DOS command on the machine of an Explorer user who visits the attacker's page. For example, the attacker could read, modify, or delete the victim's files, or insert a virus or backdoor entrance into the victim's machine. We have verified our discovery by creating a Web page that deletes a file on the machine of any Explorer user who visits the page. The core of the attack is a technique for delivering a document to the victim's browser while bypassing the security checks that would normally be applied to the document. If the document is, for example, a Microsoft Word template, it could contain a macro that executes any DOS command. Normally, before Explorer downloads a dangerous file like a Word document, it displays a dialog box warning that the file might contain a virus or other dangerous content, and asking the user whether to abort the download or to proceed with the download anyway. This gives the user a chance to avoid the risk of a malicious document. However, our technique allows an attacker to deliver a document without triggering the dialog box. Microsoft has been notified and they are working on fixing the problem. Until a remedy is widely available, we will not disclose further details about the flaw. For more information, contact Ed Felten at felten at cs.princeton.edu or 609-258-5906. Dirk Balfanz and Ed Felten Dept. of Computer Science, Princeton University http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/ ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Weller | Technology (n): | | A substitute for adulthood. stevenw at best.com | Popular with middle-aged men. From erehwon at c2.net Wed Aug 21 20:37:52 1996 From: erehwon at c2.net (William Knowles) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:37:52 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be > protected by thugs. Makes it easier to implement 'Assassination Politics' if you have to. :) William Knowles erehwon at c2.net -- William Knowles PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key -- Vote for Harry Browne in November -- http://www.HarryBrowne96.org From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Wed Aug 21 20:38:16 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:38:16 +0800 Subject: Any CPs in D.C.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey, I'm In DC this month - but already know what you look like ;) Simon On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > I will be in D.C. through Saturday. I'd like to meet some Cypherpunks > that feel like getting to know what Lucky looks like :-) > > If you are in D.C., give me a call at my hotel. > (202) 682-0111 x440 > > --Lucky > > > > --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 21 20:42:59 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:42:59 +0800 Subject: Republican and Democratic party platforms on technology Message-ID: At 9:59 PM 8/21/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >While the Republicans certainly are no fast friends of online liberties -- >recall Dole cosponsored an "anti-cyberporn" bill worse than the CDA -- >they've been moving in the right direction on crypto. This plank shows that >as a party, they're starting to take online privacy seriously. I think we all know just how long such a taking online privacy seriously committment would last...about two or three briefings from the FBI, CIA, NSA, and DIA. Maybe Dole would get the infamous "If you only knew what we know" briefing, maybe he already has had it (and is just cynically supporting "online privacy" because it's a way to contrast himself with Clinton). Sure, the rhetoric might be slightly different under a Dole presidency. The focus would be on "halting the spread of abortion information on the Net" and "plotting by Communists using unbreakable cryptography." >(Contrast both parties with the Libertarians, which have a sterling >commitment to online civil liberties, reflected in the platform approved at >their convention last month.) I certainly plan to vote for Harry Browne, their candidate, even if voting only encourages the process. I first read Browne's stuff back in 1973, and, a few years later, his wonderful and "Zen Calvinist" (my term) book, "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World," which I still recommend to people. As far as I'm concerned, Browne is the strongest candidate ever fielded by the Libertarian Party. Not that it will matter. Ralph Nader will probably get more votes than Browne. The answer lies in technology, not the ballot box. --Tim May -- [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency Act of 1996] And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said: "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck." So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular Translation, TCM, 1996] From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Aug 21 21:01:31 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:01:31 +0800 Subject: www.usdoj.gov http://156.46.199.41/ In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960821224538.00678be8@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: <199608220111.UAA31683@manifold.algebra.com> John F. Fricker wrote: > > a mirror of the hack is at http://156.46.199.41/ > and http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov (usdoj.tar.gz is also available for mirroring). - Igor. From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 21 21:07:35 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:07:35 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:18 PM -0400 8/21/96, Timothy C. May wrote: > Almost certainly nothing. I believe there is an active secessionist > movement in Alaska, and nothing has happened to them. Depends on what you call "active". Say, five? ten? years ago, the Alaska Independence Party (all of about 12 people at the time) got hijacked by Wally Hickell in his second run for the Alaska Governor's office. He had to do it that way, because he had pissed off the Republican party regulars. And it worked. The hijacking, I mean. He actually got elected. For his one (1) remaining legal term. (Remember Wally? Hotel Owner. Former Alaska Governor in the late 1960's. He was Nixon's Interior Secretary. For a while, anyway. A few bricks shy of a load, Wally was, and that's from someone who actually met him.) The liberal jokesters called AIP "Rent-A-Party" after that. Their founder and patron saint, Joe Vogler, died under mysterious circumstances a couple of years ago. Turns out he was murdered by a follower. (Other people say it was Donna Rice operating under orders from George Bush. ;-).) Joe was a quite few bricks shy, himself. However, I expect my old man probably would have flown up from retirement in New Mexico to old Joe's funeral, if Pop was alive to do it, of course. Alaska attracts people like Joe and Wally and my old man. (No stranger to bricklessness, himself, Pop was a founder of the El Paso John Birch Society chapter. He dragged us all up to Anchorage on a whim to build a whole bunch of 12-plexes after I finished 6th grade. Just before the pipline started. Then retired on it all. OK, scratch the "bricklessness" bit...) Old Joe used to tool around on his homestead in an old bulldozer, randomly plowing under the spruce trees and filling in the muskeg "wetlands", just to have fun with the press and give the tree-huggers apoplexy. Wanted to create some kind of libertarian utopia up in in Alaska, where if you wanted to exterminate all the biomass on your property one sunny summer afternoon, you were welcome to, as long as you had clear title. My kind of guy. :-). AIP got all of 2% in the last election, I think. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi. So, they were "active" (past tense) and I guess you could say something "happened" to them, too... Cheers, Bob Hettinga (Just some more pipline trash...) ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From mpd at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 21:09:35 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:09:35 +0800 Subject: 20 year key ? In-Reply-To: <199608212246.PAA09169@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: <199608220103.SAA09750@netcom19.netcom.com> Mr. Anonymous writes: > Is there such a thing as a "20 YEAR KEY " would it be a 2048 bit > or larger or what ? No. Because of the nature of mathematical progress, no reputable cryptographer will make predictions beyond 3-5 years. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From jcr at idiom.com Wed Aug 21 21:12:57 1996 From: jcr at idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:12:57 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton SucksHusband/Wife jailed for say Message-ID: <199608220141.SAA05126@idiom.com> > Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be > protected by thugs. Well, wouldn't that require a president who had a clear conscience? I don't think we've had one of those since Eisenhower! -jcr From skeeve at skeeve.net Wed Aug 21 21:22:03 1996 From: skeeve at skeeve.net (Skeeve Stevens) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:22:03 +0800 Subject: www.usdoj.gov mirror2 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960821230541.00637930@vertexgroup.com> Message-ID: <199608220132.LAA24230@zztop.myinternet.net> You, John F. Fricker, said about something or other: + +http://www.netlite.com/ameritek/usdoj is faster than that other site is your in singapore/australia/new zealand, the fastest would be http://www.skeeve.net/doj/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- Skeeve Stevens Email: skeeve at skeeve.net CEO/The Big Boss/All round nice guy URL: http://www.skeeve.net/ MyInternet Australian Anglicans Online http://www.myinternet.net/ http://www.anglican.asn.au/ Phone: (+612) 869-3334 Mobile: (0414) SKEEVE [+61414-753-383] Key fingerprint = D2 7E 91 53 19 FE D0 5C DE 34 EA AF 7A 5C 4D 3E From jim at ACM.ORG Wed Aug 21 21:32:44 1996 From: jim at ACM.ORG (Jim Gillogly) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:32:44 +0800 Subject: Ruritania In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608220140.SAA23628@mycroft.rand.org> tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: >At 7:18 PM 8/21/96, Censored Girls Anonymous wrote: >> The Legend of Ruritania >> >>There was once a far away land called Ruritania, and in this land there was >>a strange phenomenon -- all the trees that grew there were transparent. >>In the old days, the people had lived in mud huts. But now, high-tech wood >....... >>to stop the recent wave of people thinking obscene thoughts about tomatoes, >>which Dorothy Quisling noted was one of the major problems of the new age >>of plenty and joy. >>Member Internet Society - Certified BETSI Programmer - Webmistress >>*********************************************************************** >>Carol Anne Braddock (cab8) carolann at censored.org 206.42.112.96 >Carol, >I see no attribution for this. Did you write it? >It looks very familiar, like something that was posted to the Cypherpunks >list a couple of years ago. (I seem to recall Perry Metzger writing a >similar, or even identical, piece.) Good eye, Tim -- here's Perry's piece, which I just happened to save. Jim Gillogly Hevensday, 30 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 01:37 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: The Parable of Ruritania Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 14:21:40 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Someone just wrote me to ask if they could put this (very old) posting of mine up on their home page. The recent passage of Digital Telephony makes me feel this is a good time to send it out again. I should probably edit it and send it out to the net again -- among other things, I should alter the Dorothy Quisling comments and clean up a bunch of the paragraphs and expand it. However, I thought I'd send it out again now anyway. Perry ------- Forwarded Message A Parable by Perry E. Metzger (perry at gnu.ai.mit.edu) There was once a far away land called Ruritania, and in Ruritania there was a strange phenomenon -- all the trees that grew in Ruritainia were transparent. Now, in the days when people had lived in mud huts, this had not been a problem, but now high-tech wood technology had been developed, and in the new age of wood, everyone in Ruritania found that their homes were all 100% see through. Now, until this point, no one ever thought of allowing the police to spy on someone's home, but the new technology made this tempting. This being a civilized country, however, warrants were required to use binoculars and watch someone in their home. The police, taking advantage of this, would get warrants to use binoculars and peer in to see what was going on. Occasionally, they would use binoculars without a warrant, but everyone pretended that this didn't happen. One day, a smart man invented paint -- and if you painted your house, suddenly the police couldn't watch all your actions at will. Things would go back to the way they were in the old age -- completely private. Indignant, the state decided to try to require that all homes have video cameras installed in every nook and cranny. "After all", they said, "with this new development crime could run rampant. Installing video cameras doesn't mean that the police get any new capability -- they are just keeping the old one." A wise man pointed out that citizens were not obligated to make the lives of the police easy, that the police had survived all through the mud hut age without being able to watch the citizens at will, and that Ruritania was a civilized country where not everything that was expedient was permitted. For instance, in a neighboring country, it had been discovered that torture was an extremely effective way to solve crimes. Ruritania had banned this practice in spite of its expedience. Indeed, "why have warrants at all", he asked, "if we are interested only in expedience?" A famous paint technologist, Dorothy Quisling, intervened however. She noted that people might take photographs of children masturbating should the new paint technology be widely deployed without safeguards, and the law was passed. Soon it was discovered that some citizens would cover their mouths while speaking to each other, thus preventing the police from reading their lips through the video cameras. This had to be prevented, the police said. After all, it was preventing them from conducting their lawful surveillance. The wise man pointed out that the police had never before been allowed to listen in on people's homes, but Dorothy Quisling pointed out that people might use this new invention of covering their mouths with veils to discuss the kidnapping and mutilation of children. No one in the legislature wanted to be accused of being in favor of mutilating children, but then again, no one wanted to interfere in people's rights to wear what they liked, so a compromise was reached whereby all homes were installed with microphones in each room to accompany the video cameras. The wise man lamented few if any child mutilations had ever been solved by the old lip reading technology, but it was too late -- the microphones were installed everywhere. However, it was discovered that this was insufficient to prevent citizens from hiding information from the authorities, because some of them would cleverly speak in languages that the police could not understand. A new law was proposed to force all citizens to speak at all times only in Ruritanian, and, for good measure, to require that they speak clearly and distinctly near the microphones. "After all", Dorothy Quisling pointed out, "they might be using the opportunity to speak in private to mask terrorist activities!" Terrorism struck terror into everyone's hearts, and they rejoiced at the brilliance of this new law. Meanwhile, the wise man talked one evening to his friends on how all of this was making a sham of the constitution of Ruritania, of which all Ruritanians were proud. "Why", he asked, "are we obligated to sacrifice all our freedom and privacy to make the lives of the police easier? There isn't any real evidence that this makes any big dent in crime anyway! All it does is make our privacy forfeit to the state!" However, the wise man made the mistake of saying this, as the law required, in Ruritanian, clearly and distinctly, and near a microphone. Soon, the newly formed Ruritanian Secret Police arrived and took him off, and got him to confess by torturing him. Torture was, after all, far more efficient than the old methods, and had been recently instituted to stop the recent wave of people thinking obscene thoughts about tomatoes, which Dorothy Quisling noted was one of the major problems of the new age of plenty and joy. ------- End of Forwarded Message From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 21 21:46:45 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:46:45 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: <199608211933.OAA29688@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: > OK, so what would happen if I organized a party with the proclaimed goal > of secession of Oklahoma from the United States? ...already bought the T-shirt.; Check out the Southern League, POB 40910, Tuscaloosa Alabama 35404 205-553-0155 They have stgate chapters in every southern state are working towards devolution. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime. On the other hand.... the bigger they are, the faster they fall. From qut at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 21:52:02 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:52:02 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608220147.SAA22328@netcom.netcom.com> ON ! ! qut at netcom.com (Skip, OBC) writes: ! ! > ! Jim McCoy wrote: ! > ! > qut at netcom.com (Skip) writes: ! > ! > > My suggestion number #1: ! > ! > > No moderation. ! > ! > ! > ! > Suggestion 1 on how to diminish the feeble S/N ratio on cypherpunks: ! > ! > ! > ! > make it a newsgroup ! > ! > Suggestion 2: ! > ! > make it an unmoderated newsgroup ! > ! ! > ! How about making it a robomoderated newsgroup with only one enforced ! > ! rule, forbidding any crossposting? ! > ! > If moderation, then why not moderator(s) who simply send out cancel ! > messages to everthing that is crossposted? Traditional moderated ! > newsgroups are technically inferior because all posts go through netnews ! > chokepoints and then depends on the moderator(s) who's inevitable ! > position has been the irresponsible one of keeping the position long ! > after they lose interest with the high volumes. Even if their was such ! > a person, there is still are chokepoint problem which is stupid to ! > engage in. ! > ! > In any case, creation of comp.org.cypherpunks in no way means gatewaying ! > or shutting down cypherpunks at toad.com . ! ! How about a NoCeM-moderated newsgroup? ! I.e., several parties can issue 'hide' NoCeM notices for whatever ! material they consider off-topic, including cross-posts. Several ! other parties can issue 'highlight' NoCeM's for articles they ! consider particularly worthy. With the advent of killfiles and all sorts of filtering capabilities, there is no excuse for requiring moderation at all other than for purposes of censorship. ! --- ! ! Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM ! Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps ! From jgrasty at gate.net Wed Aug 21 22:07:23 1996 From: jgrasty at gate.net (Joey Grasty) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:07:23 +0800 Subject: WinSock Remailer Available at Obscura Message-ID: <199608220228.WAA07722@osceola.gate.net> Y'all: The WinSock Remailer is now available for download from Lance Cottrell's homepage at: http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ Go to the export controlled section. After you traverse the export control form and get to the ftp site, you will find the remailer in the DOS directory. The filename is WSA12.ZIP. Inside you will find a README.TXT file (that contains information on how to setup the remailer), a PGP signature file WSRMA12.SIG, and the remailer binaries WSRMA12.ZIP. The signature file is used with PGP to check that the the WSRMA12.ZIP file has not been altered. Send me a note if you have any difficulty. A special thanks to Lance for his help and his disk space. Regards, -- Joey Grasty jgrasty at gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes] jgrasty at pts.mot.com [work -- designing pagers] "Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann PGP = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13 93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7 From qut at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 22:07:34 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:07:34 +0800 Subject: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608220131.SAA19868@netcom.netcom.com> ! > I do not believe that freedom of speech in the U.S.A. extends to actively ! > agitating for secession or the overthrow of the federal government. ! ! The right to discuss revolt or secession or the overthrow of the federal ! government, it seems to me, is given below: ! ! "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created ! equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable ! Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of ! Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted ! among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the ! Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of ! these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, ! and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such ! Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall ! seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ... " ! ! Now this is the Declaration of Independence, and not the Constitution, but ! it seems to me that the right to discuss "agitating for secession or the ! overthrow of the federal government" is protected. Correct, if government is not protecting our rights as a people, we are responsible for forcing the government to do so, even if that means changing of the guard, ie, successful radicalism. From qut at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 22:09:05 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:09:05 +0800 Subject: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <199608211928.OAA29624@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <199608220144.SAA21861@netcom.netcom.com> ON ! ! if it is _robo_moderated, there would not be timing issues. Exactly the same problem of one machine that can recieve and make the posts, one script, one moderator in charge of the whole thing, which experience indicates they eventually abuse their resonsibility by keeping it after they lose interest in managing the group. ! igor ! ! Skip, OBC wrote: ! > ! > ! Jim McCoy wrote: ! > ! > qut at netcom.com (Skip) writes: ! > ! > > My suggestion number #1: ! > ! > > No moderation. ! > ! > ! > ! > Suggestion 1 on how to diminish the feeble S/N ratio on cypherpunks: ! > ! > ! > ! > make it a newsgroup ! > ! > Suggestion 2: ! > ! > make it an unmoderated newsgroup ! > ! ! > ! How about making it a robomoderated newsgroup with only one enforced ! > ! rule, forbidding any crossposting? ! > ! > If moderation, then why not moderator(s) who simply send out cancel ! > messages to everthing that is crossposted? Traditional moderated ! > newsgroups are technically inferior because all posts go through netnews ! > chokepoints and then depends on the moderator(s) who's inevitable ! > position has been the irresponsible one of keeping the position long ! > after they lose interest with the high volumes. Even if their was such ! > a person, there is still are chokepoint problem which is stupid to ! > engage in. ! > ! > In any case, creation of comp.org.cypherpunks in no way means gatewaying ! > or shutting down cypherpunks at toad.com . ! > ! > ! > -- ! > Love, ! > Skip, OBC ! > ! ! ! ! - Igor. ! From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Aug 21 22:20:38 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:20:38 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <9608212250.AA14289@cow.net> Message-ID: <199608220245.VAA32285@manifold.algebra.com> Bovine Remailer wrote: > > The Postal service is working on a new postage method, 2 key > signature, which will be unique to each "postal unit" ( stamp ) the > signature will be logged when you buy the stamps....No more anon. snail > mail...... > > Just thought you'd like to know ! > So I'd engage in the business of buying stamps and selling them to anyone for cash, anonymously. - Igor. From johnbr at atl.mindspring.com Wed Aug 21 22:20:38 1996 From: johnbr at atl.mindspring.com (John Brothers) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:20:38 +0800 Subject: telco's vs x-phones Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960822023217.00729710@pop.atl.mindspring.com> I think you both have good points here. I will redo the math. At 09:19 AM 8/21/96 -0700, Brian D Williams wrote: >In a reply to Vipul Ved Prakash, Jim Bell wrote: >Siecore plain vanilla 36 fiber singlemode list $ 1.82 a foot, $5.46 >a yard. Jim said $10/meter, so about 50% of his estimate. > >>Each fiber pair should be able to handle approximately 1 million >>conversations at current data rates, or a total of 18 million >>conversations for that 18-pair cable, or 9.5 trillion >>conversation-minutes. > >At current data rates (OC-48 Sonet) 32,256 voice channels per >fiber, 580,608 total for the fiber. Ok.. I think we're talking apples and oranges. Jim uses the term conversation, which I assume is a 3 minute duration of time. Your OC-48 handles almost precisely 1 million conversations per day. (32k DS0 x 24 * 60 * 20) So I can see where he could come up with 18 million conversations. I have no idea what a conversation-minute is. Perhaps another measure would be the total number of conversations per year. 18 million/day * 365 = 6.5 billion conversations per year. So I believe he is off by a factor of 1000+ at this point, but then the fiber is half the cost he thought it was, so its really only 500+. >>Multiply this cost by 10 for right of way, trenching, repeaters, >>and other auxiliary hardware, or $100 per meter. This is probably >>just a ballpark estimate, but... > >Off by a factor of at least 10 not counting switching equipment. So, assume that he's a long haul carrier, and doesn't have to buy any switching equipment. Still, based on $500/meter, that means that this network cost about 2.5 billion to build. So if the system was running at full capacity, 24/7/365, the LD will have to charge $0.50/conversation, or $0.15/minute to make 2.5 billion per year. Even reaching 10% of that capacity is unlikely at $5/conversation. Which, clearly, isn't happening. I assume that either I have made a mistake in my calculations, or the costs of laying fiber has been grossly overestimated... Or, that since no-one is going around and buying up 5000km right of ways, Sprint, MCI, AT&T and co. can lay fiber much more cheaply. If we assume $50/meter, it will cost 250 million, and they will have to charge $0.015/minute to break even at 100% capacity, or $0.15/minute at 10% capacity - and we know Sprint charges less than that, but if they can get more than 10% of the capacity --- although it is doubtful. My best assumption at this point is that we don't have to make back the entire cost of the fiber per year to make a profit. if we only have to earn 20% of its value to make a 10% profit, it would bring the price down to $0.075/minute, and if we were to get OC-768 systems invented, we could reduce that to $0.005/minute, which is approaching the values that Jim derived. So, I hate to say it, but it looks like long distance is more expensive than Jim (or I) thought. But, in a few years (say, 5) it will approach ridiculously cheap. We can expect at that point that either a) All (or most) long distance will be over the Internet b) Internet phone will vanish as regular long distance becomes a flat fee like local service. --- John Brothers Do you have a right not to be offended? From zachb at netcom.com Wed Aug 21 22:22:36 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:22:36 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <9608212250.AA14289@cow.net> Message-ID: Uh huh. Sure. I believe nothing more needs to be said about this. --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Bovine Remailer wrote: > The Postal service is working on a new postage method, 2 key signature, > which will be unique to each "postal unit" ( stamp ) the signature will > be logged when you buy the stamps....No more anon. snail mail...... > > Just thought you'd like to know ! > From shabbir at vtw.org Wed Aug 21 22:29:00 1996 From: shabbir at vtw.org (Voters Telecommunications Watch) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:29:00 +0800 Subject: ALERT: Show Congress you want privacy during Crypto Action Week! (8/20/96) Message-ID: <199608220208.WAA23141@panix3.panix.com> =========================================================================== ___ _____ _____ _____ ___ / __| _ \ \ / / _ \_ _/ _ \ JOIN THOUSANDS OF OTHER NET.AMERICANS AS | (__| /\ V /| _/ | || (_) | THEY WORK FOR BETTER PRIVACY AND ENCRYPTION \___|_|_\ |_| |_| |_| \___/ September 3-10, 1996 ___ ___ _____ ___ ___ _ _ __ _____ ___ _ __ / _ \ / __|_ _|_ _/ _ \| \| | \ \ / / __| __| |/ / | _ | (__ | | | | (_) | .` | \ \/\/ /| _|| _|| ' < |_| |_|\___| |_| |___\___/|_|\_| \_/\_/ |___|___|_|\_\ SENATE PRO-CRYPTO PRO-CODE BILL COULD BE VOTED OUT OF COMMITTEE YOUR HELP IS NEEDED TO PREPARE CONGRESS FOR THE DEBATE! http://www.crypto.com/caw/ Reproduce this where appropriate until September 15, 1996 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Table of Contents News from the frontlines What you must do Concluding the meeting Tips on how to conduct your visit Angles on encryption Questions about encryption you might be asked Participating Organizations / More Information --------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEWS FROM THE FRONTLINES Congress as a whole is beginning to focus on encryption - bills moving through both House and Senate would improve availability of privacy and security for the Net. With three hearings in the Senate and one scheduled in House Judiciary Committee for early September - pro-encryption bills have a chance of passing, or at least helping to lay the groundwork for the next Congress. Recently in a live chat from the Republican Convention in San Diego, Senator Conrad Burns (R-MT) said he believed he had enough votes to pass Pro-CODE out of the Senate Sub-Committee and Committee. This is the farthest encryption activists will have come in the crypto fight in years. We need your help to make the case to Congress that encryption is important to privacy and security online, as well as the future potential of the Internet to create jobs and promote US competitiveness. Here's what you can do: -sign the petition at http://www.crypto.com/petition/ -make an appointment with your legislator's local office With the directions below, visit your Congressperson - urge them to support the two bills: Pro-CODE "Promotion of Commerce Online in the Digital Era" (S.1726) & SAFE "Security and Freedom Through Encryption" (HR 3011). Now is the time to tell your member of Congress that government restrictions on encryption are unacceptable to the future of the Internet. In recent months, the FBI and the White House have been using local sheriffs to lobby members of Congress on this issue. If you don't tell your member of Congress our side of the story, they won't hear it from anyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT YOU MUST DO Here's what you need to do: 1. Make an appointment with your Senators'/Representative's local office. It's probably best to make an appointment with the local office manager. It's great if you can get an appointment with your legislator, but don't worry if your legislator cannot be there. If you don't know who your Representative and two Senators are, simply call the local League of Women Voters office and ask! You might also try using the Zipper at http://www.voxpop.org:80/zipper/ 2. Sign the petition at http://www.crypto.com/petition/ A petition has been setup to help show Congress that encryption policy must be driven by the market's concerns. 3. Setting up the meeting When making the appointment, you should say that the topic is privacy and encryption on the Internet. Ensure they know you are a constituent. If possible, take a friend who owns a small Internet business (web design, ISP, whatever) who also lives in the district. It's crucial that you do not wait to get someone to go before making the appointment. Make the appointment, then go looking for someone to go with you. 4. Carry the following message as a theme through your meeting. Encryption is important to privacy - the Internet is vulnerable and the future of American competitiveness is at stake. Encryption is NOT a terrorist weapon any more than a hammer is a terrorist weapon. While there are difficult national security issues, these should not be the driving force of this debate. The future of the Internet should not be held hostage by a cold-war era world view. 5. Send us mail at vtw at vtw.org when you've made your appointment. Check back at http://www.crypto.com/caw/ for progress and tips on Crypto Action Week! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONCLUDING THE MEETING There are a few things you should remember as you finish your meeting. If talking to a member, find out if we can count on his/her support for the PRO-CODE/SAFE bill. If talking to a staffer, make it their mission to find out the answer to this question. As you leave the meeting, run, don't walk, to the nearest card shop and buy a thank you card. Write a thank you and address it immediately. Stick it in the nearest mailbox. Send us mail at vtw at vtw.org, letting us know how it went. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TIPS ON HOW TO CONDUCT YOUR VISIT Always be polite. Never threaten. Never lose your cool. Many staffers have no idea what encryption is. Moreover, they might have never used the Internet. You should view this as an opportunity: you will get the chance to define the debate and educate them. You may even want to bring a laptop with a modem and take the member/staff on a breif Internet tour. (Be careful about what you show them.) Remember we're all taxpayers, so the phrase "I'm a taxpayer" is meaningless. Be brief. If you're going in a group, plan out the topics each person will hit. Appoint someone to act as a spokesperson for the group, so there can be a central contact. Remember the first law of Real Estate: LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. It's crucial that everyone at the meeting be a potential vote for the legislator. Remind yourself that your legislator probably hasn't yet made a decision on this issue yet; you're there to educate as much as anything. Go as *individuals* or *business owners* who have a stake in the debate on encryption issue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ANGLES ON ENCRYPTION Internet business angle: When speaking from the point of view of an Internet Service Provider or Web design firm, you have available several arguments, such as: "The popularity of the Net has created a gold rush which has benefitted my business and the local voters I employ. Concerns about security on the net could dampen that excitement, and diminish the potential for industry" "Many types of services that I would like to offer online cannot be done without strong security. The current level of security is too weak to engender public trust, and will diminish the types of business people will put on the net." Clipper angle: If someone brings up the issue of Clipper and the idea that government should be trusted to hold your private encryption key, you have several options available to you: "It's not clear that the Administration can be trusted to hold any information secret, after incidents like the FBI Filegate scandal." "Handing over one's encryption keys to the gov't is just like giving the local police station a copy of your house key, just in case they need to search your apartment. Of course they would promise never to use it unless authorized." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTIONS ABOUT ENCRYPTION YOU MIGHT BE ASKED There are a number of questions you will probably be asked by the staff or member that you should be prepared to answer. Here's a few of them and some answers you should feel comfortable with. WHAT IS ENCRYPTION? Encryption is a method of scrambling information with one or more "keys" so that only the sender and receiver can read it, and an eavesdropper cannot. Your bank card PIN, telephone conversations, love letters, health records, and business correspondence are all things that might need to be encrypted. WON'T TERRORISTS AND CRIMINALS USE ENCRYPTION? Perhaps. But criminals and terrorists already have access to strong encryption from overseas, and are unlikely to use encryption technologies which they know are breakable by the US government. Would you send sensitive information using a code that you knew your adversaries could break? Criminals and terrorists will, for better or worse, have access to strong encryption regardless of U.S. efforts to restrict its availability. Meanwhile, current U.S. policy leaves sensative personal and business communications vulnerable and actually creates opportunities for crimes like industrial espionage. WHAT IS 40 BIT ENCRYPTION? Quite often the strength of an encryption system is measured by the size of the key. Forty bits is about the same as a five or six letter word, such as "apple". The US government has stated that American companies that wish to sell products with encryption can only implement encryption whose keys are forty bits long. At one time it was quite difficult to attack and recover messages that were encrypted with 40 bit encryption. Because of advances in computer power and research, it has become much easier to do this. As recently as last year, a graduate student in France broke 40-bit encryption using University resources he had available in his spare time. DON'T EXPORT RESTRICTIONS PREVENT ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS FROM GOING ABROAD? No. The idea that export restrictions actually keep encryption out of the hands of non-U.S. citizens implies that all encryption products come from the U.S. This is simply untrue, and the plethora of products available from non-U.S. sources now shows how absurd it is to continue to keep such regulations intact. DO EXPORT RESTRICTIONS HURT U.S. COMPANIES IN THE GLOBAL MARKETPLACE? Yes. American hardware and software companies compete globally with products from around the world. For many companies, a majority of their business comes from international sales. In the crowded marketplace of this fast- paced business, developing a product with a single feature that outshines a competitor's product can often be deciding factor in a consumer's mind. Yet, American hardware and software businesses are at a disadvantage, as many competing non-U.S. products can offer stronger encryption than they can. This places American products at a distinct competitive disadvantage. DO EXPORT RESTRICTIONS LIMIT AMERICANS' CHOICE OF SECURITY PRODUCTS? Yes. Although it is possible to sell two versions of a product, one with strong encryption for sale domestically and one with weak encryption for sale abroad, most companies find this schizophrenic product development approach to be too burdensome and risky. The result is that companies that produce hardware and software products that require security tend to omit such features entirely, or weaken them so that the same product can be used for export as for domestic use. The end result of this is that Americans end up with products that are becoming increasingly incapable of protecting their privacy, hampered by regulations that can longer accomplish their goal. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS / MORE INFORMATION For more information on the encryption issue, check these important organizations' WWW sites: Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT): http://www.cdt.org Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF): http://www.eff.org Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC): http://www.epic.org Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW): http://www.vtw.org Wired Ventures Ltd.: http://www.hotwired.com Also check these great educational sites: Encryption Policy Resource Page (http://www.crypto.com) Internet Privacy Coalition (http://www.privacy.org) ======================================================================== From bdavis at thepoint.net Wed Aug 21 22:33:28 1996 From: bdavis at thepoint.net (Brian Davis) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:33:28 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <199608212138.OAA07368@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > At 02:47 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: > >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > > > >> Rush Limbaugh reports: > >> > >> That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". > >> > >> The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of > us) > >> were mentioned that they deemed threatening. > > > > > >"I hope you die." > > Doesn't sound much like a "threat" to me. > > > And the couple was arrestd for disorderly conduct by > >Chicago police. > > It sounds to me like the Chicops were just showing their "loyalty" by > sitting on somebody, not that they believed any real crime had been committed. Nope. When police started to ask the couple questions, they began screaming obscenities and generally causing a scene. Chicago cops, being what they are, are likely to arrest someone in that circumstance without any prodding. I'm not saying they should, but they will. > > > Any possible federal charges for threatening a president > >in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 871 await a determination of the > >seriousness of the statement, in context with the wife's conduct, by > >prosecutors. I predict no action. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > But it isn't even a "threat", regardless of how "serious" it was. The "I > hope you die" part is, presumably, a statement of fact: She did, indeed, > hope he dies. But I don't see how hoping this can be considered a threat, > or even SAYING she's hoping this is, likewise. The statement must be considered in context with their conduct, but as I said before, I predict no action. > > Makes me wonder whether visiting one of these appearances with a "Clinton > Doll" and a bunch of pins, and visibly inserting those pins into the doll > (while uttering various strange incantations), would constitute a "threat." > > Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be > protected by thugs. That's because you like dead Presidents. > Jim Bell > jimbell at pacifier.com > BTW I read an account of the incident in the liberal Louisville Courier Journal. I guess they messed up and reported the news despite their political leanings.... EBD From jgrasty at gate.net Wed Aug 21 22:36:43 1996 From: jgrasty at gate.net (Joey Grasty) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:36:43 +0800 Subject: WinSock Remailer Update Message-ID: <199608220239.WAA69392@osceola.gate.net> Y'all: I've done some additional testing of the WinSock Remailer with Windows 95. In short, the remailer does not decrypt messages properly in Windows 95. Therefore, it should not be used with that operating system. If you sent messages this evening, then some or all of these may have been lost during testing with Win95. I suspect that the same problems would be present with Windows NT, and indeed, one user reports a similar problem. Don't expect a fix for 95 or NT soon, as I'm a relative neophyte with these operating systems. In fact, I just installed Win95* yesterday. So, please be patient. I will have another alpha release of the remailer next week. Please stay tuned. As always, my homepage is: http://www.c2.net/~winsock/ * What possessed M$ into turning Windows 95 into a Macintosh like interface, I'll never know... (Yes, I have been hiding under a rock for the past two years, why do you ask?) Regards, -- Joey Grasty jgrasty at gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes] jgrasty at pts.mot.com [work -- designing pagers] "Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann PGP = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13 93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Aug 21 22:36:48 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:36:48 +0800 Subject: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti... (fwd) Message-ID: <199608220315.WAA07169@einstein> Forwarded message: > From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) > Subject: Re: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti... > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:31:38 -0700 (PDT) > > ! > I do not believe that freedom of speech in the U.S.A. extends to actively > ! > agitating for secession or the overthrow of the federal government. > ! > ! The right to discuss revolt or secession or the overthrow of the federal > ! government, it seems to me, is given below: > ! > ! "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created > ! equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable > ! Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of > ! Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted > ! among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the > ! Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of > ! these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, > ! and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such > ! Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall > ! seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ... " > ! > ! Now this is the Declaration of Independence, and not the Constitution, but > ! it seems to me that the right to discuss "agitating for secession or the > ! overthrow of the federal government" is protected. > > Correct, if government is not protecting our rights as a people, we are > responsible for forcing the government to do so, even if that means > changing of the guard, ie, successful radicalism. > Might I add: AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION Articles in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution. ARTICLE IX. The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ARTICLE X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 21 22:45:56 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:45:56 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960822032019.00e8d6e0@mail.teleport.com> At 05:28 PM 8/21/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >(By the way, some of you younger folks may not remember all the creative >ways people used to have to deal with unwanted junk mail. For "return >postage provided" replies, they would often attach the return forms to >large packages of stuff (sometimes even organic, stinky stuff) and let the >junk mailer eat the postage charges at his end. Or they'd fill out the "get >free stuff" forms with the addresses of local officials.) Return reply envelopes can be alot of fun. In "A Handful of Zen" by Camden Benares (a book on Discordian Zen) he suggests collecting them. When you have something sufficiently weird for a mass mailing, you just fill a bunch of them and drop them in the local public posting bin. An interesting way to releave the daily stress... --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com "| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 21 22:57:42 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:57:42 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1Ri2sD70w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Senile tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) rants: > I believe there is an active secessionist > movement in Alaska, and nothing has happened to them. > > (This does not mean they would ever be allowed to succeed in seceeding, of > course.) Alaska rightfully belongs to Russia, as do California and Hawaii. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 21 22:58:35 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:58:35 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: <199608211933.OAA29688@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca wrote: > > Nota: Quebec recently held a referendum on seperation from Canada.=20 ^ > > Just talk about secession of a state in the U.S., and you'll quickly see wh > > ich > > country makes political ideas illegal. > > OK, so what would happen if I organized a party with the proclaimed goal > of secession of Oklahoma from the United States? You'd make The Right Reverend Colin James III very happy because you'd be deported back to Sovok. :-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 21 23:02:26 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:02:26 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608220351.UAA01292@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:55 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: >> >> Makes me wonder whether visiting one of these appearances with a "Clinton >> Doll" and a bunch of pins, and visibly inserting those pins into the doll >> (while uttering various strange incantations), would constitute a "threat." >> >> Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be >> protected by thugs. > >That's because you like dead Presidents. > $50's and $100's are great! (I also like old fat dead philosophers, as well.) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From hal9001 at panix.com Wed Aug 21 23:22:31 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:22:31 +0800 Subject: CS First Boston lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:29 AM 8/19/96, Alan Horowitz wrote: >I suspect they are trying to get a judgement against "John Doe", in the >hopes of tracking him down later. > >Actually, if I had a sizeable judgement against such a John Doe, I could >probably find a private detective who would find the dude for a >contingent fee. Wow, a whole new class of factoring (commerce definition) >opens up. Get me a lawyer.... Since the messages were sent from an AoL account, I would assume that a simple court order would be all that would be needed to force/require AoL to release the billing-address records for the account. That would allow CS First Boston to name the defendant. Refusal by AoL would just force CS First Boston to add AoL as a co-defendant (until they supply the name/info). From rwright at adnetsol.com Wed Aug 21 23:24:16 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:24:16 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity Message-ID: <199608220417.VAA06243@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 21 Aug 96, 22:15, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Alaska rightfully belongs to Russia, as do California and Hawaii. > No way. We bought that stuff. Then we spent the USSR into the dark ages, winning the Cold War. Right? Huh? What? Ross (Boy do I Hate Those Pesky Spammers) Wright =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Wed Aug 21 23:43:00 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:43:00 +0800 Subject: Today's Dilbert Message-ID: I can't believe nobody mentioned wednesday's dilbert cartoon.. Simon --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 21 23:43:28 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:43:28 +0800 Subject: usenet not working with Agent now. Message-ID: <199608220408.VAA02413@mail.pacifier.com> Agent keeps reporting bad server. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From nul at void.gov Thu Aug 22 00:14:37 1996 From: nul at void.gov (The Prisoner) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:14:37 +0800 Subject: [noise]Re: The grey lady puts on some boots and rides a horseman or two... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <321BF202.3791@void.gov> Robert Hettinga wrote: > > I'm listening to the BBC's World Service at the moment, and they're doing a > feature on pedophiles on the internet, complete with much knashing of teeth > about encryption and anonymity, along with some lurid stuff about private > holding cells, and sexual tourism, and slavery. And Lions. And Tigers. And > Bears. Oh My. > ... etc... > Be afraid, be very afraid. They're coming for your daughters. The BBC says so. > What ******I'm******* afraid of is another Richard Davis coming after my daughters. In case you don't know, he's the fuckhead who killed 12 yr old Polly Klaas after abducting her from her bedroom while her mother slept in the other room. The man had been in and out of custody for years for violent crimes, and always seemed to get out. Davis did not use encryption, a computer, the Internet, PGPPhone. He used her panties. Internet, encryption, anonymity: bullshit. Get the fucking child-murderers off the *streets* From cwalker at erie.net Thu Aug 22 01:13:41 1996 From: cwalker at erie.net (Elf) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:13:41 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608220615.CAA24044@moose.erie.net> ---------- > From: Rich Graves > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks > Date: Wednesday, August 21, 1996 5:12 AM > > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Z.B. wrote: > > > Published in Washington, D.C. July 9, 1996 > > Insult to Clinton leads to 2 arrests > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > By Ruth Larson > > THE WASHINGTON TIMES > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I think you should try a more credible paper. Say, Scientology's Freedom > Magazine, rather than the Moonies'. You are of course free to believe > whatever you wish. > > -rich Actually it very well could of happened. I am ex-Navy and for military peronell it is made clear that anyone military or not that slanders, degrades, or in any way threatens or degrades the President (commander in chief) is subject to arrest, imprissionment and/or fines. Of course this usually doesnt happen cause only the real wacked out Clinton rules gov. employees would enforce this. But you never know! From unicorn at schloss.li Thu Aug 22 01:21:24 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:21:24 +0800 Subject: Any CPs in D.C.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote: > I will be in D.C. through Saturday. I'd like to meet some Cypherpunks > that feel like getting to know what Lucky looks like :-) > > If you are in D.C., give me a call at my hotel. > (202) 682-0111 x440 Are you in D.C. now? Perhaps a drink would be in order? > > --Lucky > > > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From npoznick at Harding.edu Thu Aug 22 01:22:10 1996 From: npoznick at Harding.edu (nathan poznick) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:22:10 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton SucksHusband/Wife jailedfor say In-Reply-To: <199608220141.SAA05126@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, John C. Randolph wrote: > Well, wouldn't that require a president who had a clear conscience? > I don't think we've had one of those since Eisenhower! you think Eisenhower had a clear concience??? think of all the nuclear testing that went on during his time in office... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Nathan Poznick ^ ^ ^ ^ http://www.harding.edu/~npoznick ^ ^ ^ ^ "640k should be enough for anybody." ^ ^ ^ ^ --Bill Gates, 1981-- ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Thu Aug 22 02:16:37 1996 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:16:37 +0800 Subject: SSL: The early days Message-ID: <84069694413671@cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz> I've been trying to find information about the early days of SSL for a paper I'm writing, but I'm finding that someone's comment about the net having a collective memory of about 12 months seems to be true - there doesn't seem to be anything available going back more than a year or so. In particular I'm interested in: - Why/how/when did Netscape decide on SSL? - How long did it take to design the first version? - I've heard a rumour that when it was first presented at a conference, two people independantly broke it before the speaker sat down. Is this true, and what conference was it? The later work on SSL (an open design process, contributions from cryptographers and security experts, IETF standards-track work, etc etc) is well documented, but information on earlier work is hard to find. Does anyone have any pointers to information I could work from? Peter. From rich at c2.org Thu Aug 22 02:46:23 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:46:23 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 6:47 PM 8/21/96, Brian Davis wrote: > >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > > > >> Rush Limbaugh reports: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [...] > Well, I agree that saying "I hope you die" is a tad bit more serious than > "You suck, and those boys died." > > If these additional words were spoken, why didn't the SS reveal them early > on? (Or, if they did, why did the news reports not mention them?) "News Reports"? Jesus. -rich From mpd at netcom.com Thu Aug 22 03:10:28 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:10:28 +0800 Subject: [noise]Re: The grey lady puts on some boots and rides a horseman or two... In-Reply-To: <321BF202.3791@void.gov> Message-ID: <199608220550.WAA17101@netcom13.netcom.com> Someone wrote: > What ******I'm******* afraid of is another Richard Davis coming after > my daughters. > In case you don't know, he's the fuckhead who killed 12 yr old Polly > Klaas after abducting her from her bedroom while her mother slept in > the other room. Oh, we know about it all right. We've heard nothing else on the news for months on end. A little war of sound bytes to the exclusion of the hundreds of other children who were killed by their own parents during the time we were fed this one-in-a-million occurrence as some sort of prototypical child danger. Someone in "another newsgroup" recently commented that by the end of the trial, he was ready to vote the death penalty for Polly's father, if that was the only way to make the man shut up. :) Despite such press antics, home is still the most dangerous place for a child, and the parents are the most likely perps if a child comes to harm. Being kidnapped out of your bedroom by a stranger probably ranks below random lightning strikes as something kids need to worry about. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From bdavis at thepoint.net Thu Aug 22 03:35:03 1996 From: bdavis at thepoint.net (Brian Davis) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:35:03 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <199608220351.UAA01292@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > At 10:55 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: > > >> > >> Makes me wonder whether visiting one of these appearances with a "Clinton > >> Doll" and a bunch of pins, and visibly inserting those pins into the doll > >> (while uttering various strange incantations), would constitute a "threat." > >> > >> Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be > >> protected by thugs. > > > >That's because you like dead Presidents. > > > > $50's and $100's are great! You don't get them unless AP works. EBD > > (I also like old fat dead philosophers, as well.) > > > Jim Bell > jimbell at pacifier.com > From peter.allan at aeat.co.uk Thu Aug 22 07:06:09 1996 From: peter.allan at aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:06:09 +0800 Subject: cryptoanalysis 002 Message-ID: <9608221149.AA13676@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk> > From: Scottauge at aol.com > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:36:45 -0400 > Subject: cryptoanalysis 002 > For example, if the crypto-alphabet for e is 23, 45, 190, 200, etc, one can > remove some of the frequency for a letter. This definately makes it harder > to attack with the frequency analysis method because the "resolution" of the > distribution for the letter is lessened to a near randomness. (So it looks, > there are still clues, eh?) I think (from memory) this is called "homoalphabetic". Encyclopaedia Brittanica (Cryptology - article by Gus Simmons) says that it is still vulnerable to frequencies of digraphs, trigraphs etc. But even Gauss was keen on it once. I guess it might have value as a part of another system, making a known plaintext into one of many. Whether it's worth the increased cyphertext size in a system you'd hope to be immune to known plaintext attacks anyway is another question. PA From rah at shipwright.com Thu Aug 22 07:52:48 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:52:48 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <199608220141.SAA05126@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 2:28 AM -0400 8/22/96, nathan poznick wrote: > you think Eisenhower had a clear concience??? > think of all the nuclear testing that went on during his time in office... ... Which he did with a clear conscience. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 22 08:48:59 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 23:48:59 +0800 Subject: Any CPs in D.C.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Black Unicorn writes: > Are you in D.C. now? > > Perhaps a drink would be in order? I'll be at InfoWarCon in Arlington Sept 4-6. Any Usenet Cabal affiliates want to be spat on in person? :-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From daemon at anon.penet.fi Thu Aug 22 08:56:49 1996 From: daemon at anon.penet.fi (daemon at anon.penet.fi) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 23:56:49 +0800 Subject: Anonymous password changed. Message-ID: <9608221230.AA08592@anon.penet.fi> You have requested the replacement or assignment of your anonymous password. Your password is now x4anarchy. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 22 09:03:19 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 00:03:19 +0800 Subject: usenet not working with Agent now. In-Reply-To: <199608220408.VAA02413@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: jim bell writes: > Agent keeps reporting bad server. What's the cryptorelevance? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 22 09:06:29 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 00:06:29 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: <199608220417.VAA06243@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Message-ID: <4Z92sD78w165w@bwalk.dm.com> "Ross Wright" writes: > On Or About 21 Aug 96, 22:15, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > Alaska rightfully belongs to Russia, as do California and Hawaii. > > > > No way. We bought that stuff. Then we spent the USSR into the dark > ages, winning the Cold War. Right? Huh? What? Wrong - it was a 99-year lease. > Ross (Boy do I Hate Those Pesky Spammers) Wright Protect free speech - support your local pesky spammer. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From blane at aa.net Thu Aug 22 10:25:06 1996 From: blane at aa.net (Brian C. Lane) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 01:25:06 +0800 Subject: SpamBot Message-ID: <321c65db.721494@mail.aa.net> Well, with all the other noise in the list lately, I'll add a little of my own. I woke up today to find my mailbox filled with 20 messages from a 'careernetonline.com' offering to spread my resume across the net for $60. It was one of those terrorist spams where they apologize for wasting your time and tell you that you can stop getting spammed by replying to the message. Well, I really hate giving in to terrorists, no matter what form they take. And I'm sick and tired of spam. So, I'm starting a project called SpamBot. You feed it a message and a list of addresses and the bot send the message to those addresses until they reply with an appropriate message indicating that they are at least looking into the problem. Some people may say that this is sinking to their level. So it is, but I think its time that system administrators realized that there are people who don't appreciate being the target for shotgun marketing schemes (none of which have been of any use to me). Watch my webpage for more info on this helpful little bot. Brian ------- -------------------- ------- "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice" - B. Goldwater ============== 11 99 3D DB 63 4D 0B 22 15 DC 5A 12 71 DE EE 36 ============ From declan at eff.org Thu Aug 22 11:25:00 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 02:25:00 +0800 Subject: [noise]Re: The grey lady puts on some boots and rides a horseman or two... In-Reply-To: <199608220550.WAA17101@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Mike Duvos wrote: > Someone wrote: > > > What ******I'm******* afraid of is another Richard Davis coming after > > my daughters. > > > In case you don't know, he's the fuckhead who killed 12 yr old Polly > > Klaas after abducting her from her bedroom while her mother slept in > > the other room. > > Oh, we know about it all right. We've heard nothing else on the news > for months on end. A little war of sound bytes to the exclusion of > the hundreds of other children who were killed by their own parents > during the time we were fed this one-in-a-million occurrence as some > sort of prototypical child danger. > > Someone in "another newsgroup" recently commented that by the end of > the trial, he was ready to vote the death penalty for Polly's father, > if that was the only way to make the man shut up. :) I met Polly's father at the "Kids off Lists" press conference in front of the Capitol in June. He's an irascable fellow, and there's more to the story than you might think at first. Check out part of Brock's Muckraker column I've attached below. -Declan // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // http://www.muckraker.com/muckraker/96/24/index3a.html Muckraker By Brock Meeks June 12 1996 Teach Your Children Well, or Else ... My kids are info subversives. I should know. I taught them everything I know about the subject. My kids know not to give out their telephone number or address to any yahoo who asks for it on the street or phone. If pressed for such information, they simply make up a number or address or zip code. Those lessons have transferred to the online world, too. So when prompted for personal information while netsurfing, my kids either jet over to another site or simply fill in the blanks with bogus info. My question is: What the hell are other parents doing? We live in an information culture; no amount of bitching about how today's kids are "smarter than we are" and none of the all-too-tired whining about how "I have to ask my 10-year-old to program the VCR" will make this fact any less true. Parents need to take more responsibility. The fight over the Communications Decency Act raised the same point. How best to protect kids from unrelenting Internet info scavengers is now a topic of national debate, and the long arm of Congress and regulatory agencies is reaching into the sandbox. The issue ignited with an overheated report from the well-respected Center for Media Education. These folks have done some great work in the past, such as hammering the television networks for trying to pass off Saturday morning cartoons as "educational programming." But when they released their "Web of Deception" study, the group went over the edge into Timothy Leary land - rest his soul. That report overhyped a very real concern: Some companies use Web sites as bait to entice kids to provide a wealth of information about themselves, which can then be cranked into a database and crunched every which way. The report drove Representative Bob Franks (R-New Jersey) and Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-California) to introduce the "Children's Privacy Protection and Parental Empowerment Act." The idea is to keep kids' names off direct marketing lists. It's a good concept, but it's short on focus and long on fear - the fear that gathering such information can lead to child abuse or worse. A group called "Kids Off Lists" (KOL) was on hand during a PR event to help juice the introduction of the bill. Heading that group is Marc Klaas, whose claim to fame is that he's the father of Polly Klaas, the 12-year-old California girl who in 1994 was abducted from a slumber party and murdered. Klaas's personal tragedy lends a twisted emotional and impassioned draw to the issue. During that event, a direct mail company called Metromail, a subsidiary of the publishing giant R.R. Donnelley & Sons, was singled out as evil incarnate for its practice of selling information on kids via a 900 telephone number. KOL showed off a flyer that offers US$5,000 for information leading to the conviction of anyone who has used information from such a company to "locate and harm a child." But there's a subplot here. The actual driving force and financial backer of KOL is John Phillips, who runs Aristotle Publishing, a political software company in Washington, DC. Phillips, as it turns out, has been in a kind of run-and-shoot legal battle with Donnelley for the past five years, according to an article in the Washington City Paper, an alternative weekly published in DC. Phillips and Donnelley clashed over a soured deal involving Aristotle and Metromail. Phillips sued for $5.3 million, and Metromail settled in 1995 for $2.7 million, according to the City Paper article. But Phillips refused to let up and has funded KOL to keep the pressure on Donnelley and Metromail. On 7 March, Donnelley said it would sell off its majority holding in Metromail. All this emotion spilled over and caught the attention of the Federal Trade Commission. Jodie Bernstein, director of the agency's Bureau of Consumer Protection, said that the "focus" of its two-day hearing last week was "children in cyberspace" with questions aimed at finding out "what's happening" with information collection on kids in cyberspace. "We are not looking to prosecute but to educate and report," he said. [...] From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Thu Aug 22 11:30:35 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 02:30:35 +0800 Subject: Asia seen having appetite for Internet banking Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960822150701.0074c1b8@206.33.128.129> > NEW DELHI, Aug 21 (Reuter) - Asian nations are eager to make >use of the Internet in the field of banking and finance to meet >individual country's needs, a senior official of computer group >Hewlett-Packard Co said on Wednesday. > ``The response through the region is quite phenomenal,'' Jeff >Ayton, the region's director of marketing in the financial >services division of Hewlett-Packard, told Reuters in an >interview. > He said a Hewlett-Packard roadshow he held across the region >revealed a keen interest in the use of Internet in banking and >insurance. Internet experts say customers can use the network to >transact business and banks can improve communications and >customer service with its help. > ``I don't think any Asian country wants to be left behind,'' >he said, but added that the exact level of sophistication in the >demand generated would depend on customer needs and >infrastructure facilities in each nation. > With even rural areas now linked via satellites, there is a >big potential for Internet-linked business in huge emerging >markets, he said. > ``Satellite technology is what will help in countries like >China and India,'' he said, referring to their own satellite >launch programmes. > Ayton said he had found interest in using the Internet in >banking in the Philippines, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Thailand, >Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea. > Hewlett-Packard officials say that countries like India >could leapfrog in computer networking technology because they >have not yet invested huge amounts in computer infrastructure. > Ayton said he was scheduled to meet Indian banking officials >next week to discuss Internet-related possibilities in the >field. > Kapi Attawar, a senior Hewlett-Packard official dealing with >emerging markets, said his company saw particular potential for >the ``Intranet''. The latter enables local networks within >companies to be linked to the worldwide information highway. > Many Indian companies already had local computing networks >using basic data transmission facilities which may be used to >hook on to Internet, Attawar said. > > > _______________________ Regards, Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm. -Ralph Waldo Emerson Joseph Reagle http://rpcp.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle at mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E From declan at well.com Thu Aug 22 11:58:28 1996 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 02:58:28 +0800 Subject: Republican and Democratic party platforms on technology Message-ID: Dole's cosponsorship of Pro-CODE was a way to land some California votes and a way to differentiate himself from Clinton, nothing more. A statement he released on May 2 bashed the White House: "The administration apparently thinks very little of the right to privacy -- it presumes the government is entitled to all the so-called 'keys' or secret passwords which protect computer generate [sic] information from prying yes..." I predict that if he were to win, we'd see the fastest policy turnaround ever. The moment he was inaugurated, Dole would pick up where Clinton left off. Clipper IV, here we come... But the benefit of having a pro-privacy statement in the platform (which in fact was watered down significantly from that originally proposed by advocates on our side) is that the platform covers Republican Party candidates for any office, not just the presidency. I'm told that the a Dem convention speaker may talk about privacy issues, however. -Declan Tim writes, quoting me: >Sure, the rhetoric might be slightly different under a Dole presidency. The >focus would be on "halting the spread of abortion information on the Net" >and "plotting by Communists using unbreakable cryptography." > >>(Contrast both parties with the Libertarians, which have a sterling >>commitment to online civil liberties, reflected in the platform approved at >>their convention last month.) > >I certainly plan to vote for Harry Browne, their candidate, even if voting >only encourages the process. > >I first read Browne's stuff back in 1973, and, a few years later, his >wonderful and "Zen Calvinist" (my term) book, "How I Found Freedom in an >Unfree World," which I still recommend to people. As far as I'm concerned, >Browne is the strongest candidate ever fielded by the Libertarian Party. From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Thu Aug 22 12:06:02 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 03:06:02 +0800 Subject: Court rules faxes are not binding Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960822150702.0072b21c@206.33.128.129> > CINCINNATI, Aug. 21 (UPI) -- A federal appellate court in Cincinnati >ruled this week that faxes are not necessarily legally binding if the >receiving party does not know the communication is coming. > The case stemmed from a 1991-92 strike by 200 Clow Water System Co. >workers who were represented by the United Steelworkers. > The court ruled the Coshocton company, a division of McWane Inc., did >not violate federal labor law when it hired replacement workers after >the union transmitted an unconditional fax offer to return to work in >February 1992. > The union sent its offer by fax at 4:35 p.m. on a Friday, 25 minutes >before the plant closed for the day. The intended recipient claimed he >checked for any communications at 4:30, and when he saw there weren't >any, went home. > On Saturday, Clow hired 80 replacement workers. > The National Labor Relations Board later held that actual knowledge >of the fax was not required. The board said the parties had communicated >by facsimile during their negotiations, and that the facsimile was sent >and received. > But the appellate court said the union had sent only four facsimile >transmissions during 13 months of negotiations. > ``All of these facsimiles contained contract proposals -- a >communication intended to be examined and considered, not a >communication having legal import in and of itself,'' the court said, >ordering the NLRB ruling against Clow must be re-evaluated. > The court said facsimile and electronic mail are becoming >increasingly common forms of business communication, however, both >parties must agree to the use of such media and must be notified when >messages are sent. > ``The critical part of this case is that (the fax) was sent only 25 >minutes before the plant closed,'' David Peck, a lawyer with Taft, >Stettinius & Hollister, the law firm that represented Clow, told United >Press International Wednesday. ``Normal courtesy is to call first and >again after to confirm that a fax has been received.'' > The union claimed Clow committed an unfair labor practice by >permanently replacing economic strikers after the union made an >unconditional offer, as required by federal law, to return to work. > But the court said the fax transmission itself wasn't the issue. > ``The key to this case is simply fair notice,'' the court said in its >decision. ``If the parties did not agree to the method of communication >utilized, and if there is no pattern of conduct reflecting acquiescence >to the method of communication utilized, we will not impute notice of >the communication to the recipient. > ``Communication by facsimile has simplified and streamlined the way >in which business in conducted in this country,'' the court added. >``This technological advance provides a valuable service and benefit, >and our holding should not be taken as an indication that parties should >not use facsimiles to conduct their affairs.'' >-- > C O P Y R I G H T * R E M I N D E R > > This article is Copyright 1996 by United Press International. > All articles in the clari.* news hierarchy are Copyrighted and licenced >to ClariNet Communications Corp. for distribution. Except for articles >in the biz.clarinet.sample newsgroup, only paid subscribers may access >these articles. Any unauthorized access, reproduction or transmission >is strictly prohibited. > We offer a reward to the person who first provides us with >information that helps stop those who distribute or receive our news >feeds without authorization. Please send reports to reward at clari.net. >[Use info at clari.net for sales or other inquiries.] > > Details on use of ClariNet material and other info can be found in >the user documentation section of our web page: . >You can also read ClariNet news from your Web browser. > > > _______________________ Regards, Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm. -Ralph Waldo Emerson Joseph Reagle http://rpcp.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle at mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E From wb8foz at nrk.com Thu Aug 22 13:12:00 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 04:12:00 +0800 Subject: Any CPs in D.C.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608221608.MAA01581@nrk.com> > > Black Unicorn writes: > > Are you in D.C. now? > > > > Perhaps a drink would be in order? There is the dccp at eff.org list. You guys missed our Cryto Museum talk [w/ employee sponsor!!] by Carl Ellison. At least two dccp'ers will be at the Linux InstallFest Sat [http://linux.wauug.org/fest.html].... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From bkmarsh at feist.com Thu Aug 22 13:57:18 1996 From: bkmarsh at feist.com (Bruce M.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 04:57:18 +0800 Subject: USPS In-Reply-To: <9608212250.AA14289@cow.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Bovine Remailer wrote: > The Postal service is working on a new postage method, 2 key signature, which will be unique to each "postal unit" ( stamp ) the signature will be > logged when you buy the stamps....No more anon. snail mail...... > > Just thought you'd like to know ! In related news... Web Week, July 8, 1996, p3 - In an effort to do its part to nuture electronic commerce, the U.S. Postal Service is launching a pilot project this summer to test the electronic postmarking of documents sent over the Web. The electronic postmark--a time and dte stamp--will carry the full legal weight of the postmark on standard mail, including the Postal Service's authority to investigate tampering. [....] The Postal Service's attorneys have told the USPS that the tampering part of the current federal law would transfer to the electronic space, and that the mail fraud portion might also apply... "We're a trusted third party," Saunders said. "We don't have any interest in learning your trade secrets. Congress oversees our actions. Our customers have found that of value." Electronic postmarking is one of two services that the USPS intends to launch into cyberspace. The second is a certificate-authority service, in which people can take a public encryption key and register it with the Postal Service for general use on the Internet. There will be three levels of security offered: simple online registration; a physical verification of identity; and the highest level, which requires electronic THUMBPRINTS. The certification program will pilot-test in the fall and will be available to the public by the end of the year. The price will be $10 to $15, Raines said. The certificates will last one to three years, specified at registration. Cylink Corp,...is providing the public-key encryption and certificate- issuing technology fo the Postal Service, basd on the company's patented Diffie-Hellman public-key cryptography scheme. Neither the Postal Service nor Cylink executives would discuss the use of those technologies. [Information about how their software will be integrated into software by Microsoft, Lotus and Netscape] [....] The Postal Service plans to add follow-up services, including an electronic return-receipt program and time-specific delivery. [Talk about how great it would be to mail in your tax return with delayed delivery] [They say that Verisign is the alleged only real competitor in the certificate market] -- ________________________________ [ Bruce M. - Feist Systems, Inc. ] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Official estimates show that more than 120 countries have or are developing [information warfare] capabilities." -GAO/AIMD-96-84 So, what is your excuse now? From koontz at netapp.com Thu Aug 22 14:16:07 1996 From: koontz at netapp.com (Dave Koontz) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:16:07 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity Message-ID: <9608221725.AA02571@elgreco.netapp.com> >OK, so what would happen if I organized a party with the proclaimed goal >of secession of Oklahoma from the United States? You'd be overwhelmed with contributions? From m1tca00 at FRB.GOV Thu Aug 22 14:21:40 1996 From: m1tca00 at FRB.GOV (Thomas C. Allard) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:21:40 +0800 Subject: U.S. Army Private Faces Spying Charges Message-ID: <9608221711.AA00368@bksmp2.FRB.GOV> source: http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/960821/news/stories/spy_1.html U.S. Army Private Faces Spying Charges WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The U.S. Army said Wednesday it had charged a 20-year-old computer specialist with espionage and computer crimes in a case that the soldier's parents said involved a Chinese national. Pfc. Eric Jenott of the 50th Signal Battalion at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, was formally charged June 28 and is in a Marine Corps jail in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, awaiting court-martial, the army said. ``The case involves classified information and matters pertaining to national security,'' a three-paragraph statement from Fort Bragg, home of the Army's 18th Airborne Corps, said. It said many of the case's details were too sensitive to disclose. Jenott has been charged with giving ``secret computer passwords relating to the national defense'' to a Mr. Lee, ``a citizen of a foreign nation,'' his lawyer said, reading from the charge sheet. He also faces charges of destruction of government property and larceny. The charge sheet alleged Jenott disclosed the passwords between April and June ``with the intent or reason to believe it would be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation.'' It said the passwords ``directly concerned communications intelligence,'' among the most closely guarded U.S. secrets. Jenott is facing a general court-martial, the most serious kind, and a possible life sentence if convicted, his lawyer, Timothy Dunn, of Fayetteville, North Carolina, said in a telephone interview. He said his client was ``not a criminal'' but had broken into a supposedly impenetrable system after advising his superiors of defects in the security system. Dunn declined to discuss the system because of what he called the case's sensitive nature and national security implications. John Jenott said his son, a fluent Chinese speaker whom he described as a ``computer genius'' with a longstanding interest in China, had given a young Chinese friend what the son described as an unclassified computer code. He said his son knew the person to whom he gave the code from one of several trips he had made to China. His son, ``not your average kid-out-on-a-skateboard-type guy,'' could read and write Chinese and lived with a Chinese family in Vancouver, Canada, for about a year when he was in high school, the father added. He said his son told him that before giving away the code, he had been trying to show his superiors a security flaw in a sensitive communication system and eventually demonstrated he could get secret data without authorization. ``He was trying to say we have a weakness,'' John Jenott said in a telephone interview from his home in Graham, Washington. ``This stuff about being a spy -- it's ridiculous.'' His stepmother, Kelly Jenott, said, ``They're blowing this way out of proportion.'' His father said an Army major at Fort Bragg, whom he declined to name, had urged him to persuade his son to sign a confession, so prosecutors would not seek the death penalty. Jenott said his son had told him, ``Dad, I'd rather die than sign that.'' ``He said it's not true. He said, 'I'm not a spy. I didn't commit espionage. And I'm not going to sign something that says I did,''' Jenott said. -30- rgds-- TA (tallard at frb.gov) I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me. pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6 DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D From declan at well.com Thu Aug 22 14:26:03 1996 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:26:03 +0800 Subject: "Freedom on Trial," from October 1996 Playboy Message-ID: [Some excerpts follow. Pick up the October issue for the full article. --Declan] Playboy, October 1996 "Freedom on Trial: how the communications decency act played in court" By Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) Day 1 (March 21) In the shadow of the Liberty Bell in downtown Philadelphia, the future of online liberty is being decided. A panel of federal judges has gathered to hear a challenge to the Communications Decency Act, which bans "indecent" or "patently offensive" material from being transmitted or displayed online where minors might access it. That means just about anywhere online. [...] Day 2 (March 22) A key witness today is Robert Croneberger of the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh. The judges are pleased with his description of the Internet as a library -- finally, someone who isn't using technobabble. Croneberger testifies about the difficulties and expense of implementing the CDA, noting that his library would have to hire 180 people to review and censor the 2 million listings in its catalog. Russotto, the government lawyer, is skeptical. During her cross-exam, she tries to make the case that the job wouldn't be so difficult as Croneberger portrays it. Q: Can you do a keyword search through your catalog for words related to sex or for the seven dirty words [to find material to restrict]? A: It depends. Q: But a keyword search on sex wouldn't turn up books about physics, would it? A: I doubt it. Q: And a search on sex isn't going to turn up books about gardening? A: Obviously plants proliferate and flowers grow, but it depends on the words you're using. Q: Would a search on sex turn up a biography of Abraham Lincoln? A: I've read many articles about his supposed sex life, or lack thereof. Q: Would a search on sex turn up any books about geology? A: Only if "rock" is put together with "roll." Croneberger's point is subtle but clear. Sex can't be taken out of a library any more easily than it can be separated from life. [...] Day 4 (April 12) The government witnesses take the stand. First up is Howard Schmidt, an Air Force special agent who says he has conducted 30 to 50 investigations of online porn. The judges are growing weary of demonstrations and sex, so when Schmidt offers to download provocative images from Usenet groups, the panel asks for G-rated animals instead. After the second or third waterfowl image, Judge Sloviter rules, "I think we've seen enough ducks." [...] Beyond its sheer stupidity, [Carnegie Mellon University computer scientist Dan Olsen's -L18 self-labelling scheme] seems to be built with prudery rather than technology. During cross-examination, the judges didn't appear to take him seriously: Q: If you thought about posting a centerfold from Playboy, would you think the image might be indecent or patently offensive for persons under 18? A; If we consider the local community that consists of Dan, Dan would be offended. Q: And how about the seven dirty words. A: Dan would be offended. Judge Buckwalter: Who's Dan? Judge Sloviter: Yes, who's Dan? A: That's me. I'm sorry. Judge Dalzell: Oh, he's the community. He is an expert on what would offend him. A: It's a relatively small community, but it's the one I know best. Buckwalter: I thought Dan was an acronym. A moment later, our lawyers show Olsen a list of Internet addresses and ask if they appear to be porn sites deserving of unsuitable-for-children tags. He hesitates, then says, "I don't know, but I wouldn't go there." Looking over the list, Judge Dalzell adds the punch line. "Chick of the Day could be poultry," he suggests. "You really are in for ducks and poultry," says Judge Sloviter. "It's a leitmotif." Bruce Ennis, counsel for the ALA, asks Olsen how content providers would verify the ages of those who visit their sites. Olsen stammers a bit and then hits on an idea. Ask the Social Security Administration! It keeps records of such things. Big Brother couldn't have said it better. Day 5 (April 15) The government has a tough road ahead. It has to convince three skeptical judges that enforcing the CDA would not become a boondoggle. Olsen, at least, believes it can be done. When asked if his rating system would slow the growth of the Net, he quickly responds, "Absolutely not!" But everyone in the courtroom seems to feel Olsen is being a weasel. Judge Dalzell, the most Net-savvy judge and the only one with young kids (I'm guessing the two are related), helps pin the inventor down. "Assume a chat group -- say, students from 13 to 18 -- is talking about the CDA. In the course of the chat, an 18-year-old is exasperated and types in 'Fuck the CDA.' Is it your proposal that before he types the message, he should tag it -L18?" Dalzell is paraphrasing Cohen v. California, a First Amendment case in which the Supreme Court overturned the conviction of a teenager who wore a jacket that read "Fuck The Draft." Some of Dalzell's other questions were equally astute. "If in one issue of The Economist the word 'fuck' appears," he asks Olsen, "the library putting it online would have to go through the entire issue?" "Somebody would have to make that judgement," Olsen replies. He suggests that librarians band together to censor material. He insists his plan is "flexible." To that, Bruce Ennis reponds testily, "Is it flexible if you, the librarian, risk going to jail for two years if you make the wrong judgment and put material online that is found to be patently offensive for a minor?" [...] Sloviter isn't finished. After Olsen claims that a voluntary rating system developed at MIT is unfeasible because it will "slow the flow" online, she asks how an adult could show -L18 tagged materials to a mature teenager. Olsen replies that a "teacher or parent could log on." "Wouldn't that slow the flow?" the judge asks. Flustered, Olsen suddenly discharges a series of staccato high-pitched giggles. It's the damnedest thing that I have ever heard -- it sounds like a rabbit being tortured to death. The galley stares in horror. Thus ends the testimony of our best witness -- and we didn't even call him to the stand. Day 6 (May 10) During closing arguments, Justice attorney Tony Coppolino dances around providing a legal definition for indecency. He hints that it would include only hard-core porn but concedes the government can't guarantee that an ambitious prosecutor somewhere wouldn't take on an absurd case. Judge Sloviter is growing impatient: "I've been taking the position for 17 years that people should know what they can be prosecuted for," she says "I still don't understand" what indecency means under the CDA. "We've been trying to get at this for 40 minutes," grumbles Judge Dalzell. [...] EPILOGUE We have won -- for now. The government's appeal will reach the Supreme Court during the next few months. If the Court upholds the lower court decision, outraged right-wing groups will demand action. Congress will spring to attention. Bills will be drawn up, campaign funds raised, and porn once again waved in the Senate chamber. Censorship is often championed by adults who want to protect children from a world the adults do not understand. During the hearing, Judge Buckwalter raised this issue while discussing the computer gap between parents and children that helps fuel fears of online dangers. "In another generation that will fade from the picture, don't you think?" he asked. Archaic restrictions over what we can share online, however, may not. ### From frantz at netcom.com Thu Aug 22 14:37:29 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:37:29 +0800 Subject: RC4 RC2 & MD5??? Message-ID: <199608221816.LAA01552@netcom6.netcom.com> At 12:58 PM 8/21/96 -0700, Jeff Davis wrote: >I assume then that the Netscape encryption is Symetric Key, so how do >RC4 RC2 and MD5 compare and contast? TIA RC2 and RC4 are both both variable key length cyphers developed by Ron Rivest for RSA Data Security Inc. They were both protected by trade secret, but both have been reverse engineered and posted to the net. Both of them have fast-path export approval if their key length is 40 bits or less. MD5 (Message Digest 5) is not a cypher but a secure hash. If takes an input of variable length and computes a 128 bit hash. Recently some weaknesses have been found in MD5 leading to the recomendation that new applications be coded to use SHA1 instead. As a note: Any good secure hash can be used as a symetric key cypher. Usually doing so involves considerably more computation than a symetric cypher of equal strength. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From declan at eff.org Thu Aug 22 14:39:58 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:39:58 +0800 Subject: Any CPs in D.C.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I may stop by. Though I'll probably avoid any airborne spittle. -Declan On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Black Unicorn writes: > > Are you in D.C. now? > > > > Perhaps a drink would be in order? > > I'll be at InfoWarCon in Arlington Sept 4-6. > > Any Usenet Cabal affiliates want to be spat on in person? :-) > > --- > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 22 14:44:33 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:44:33 +0800 Subject: Any CPs in D.C.? In-Reply-To: <199608221608.MAA01581@nrk.com> Message-ID: <0XP3sD3w165w@bwalk.dm.com> David Lesher writes: > > Black Unicorn writes: > > > Are you in D.C. now? > > > > > > Perhaps a drink would be in order? > > There is the dccp at eff.org list. You guys missed our Cryto > Museum talk [w/ employee sponsor!!] by Carl Ellison. We (myself & Dr.M.V.) were there alright and even spoke briefly to David. We greatly enjoyed the tour and the lecture given by the museum staff member. Afterwards we felts like talking crypto, so we skipped Hinkel's and went over to Annapolis, where we talked crypto with knowledgeable folks. :-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From vipul at pobox.com Thu Aug 22 14:45:50 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:45:50 +0800 Subject: DOJ Scam! Message-ID: <199608221256.MAA00179@fountainhead.net> Vipul wrote : > >I think its a DOJ's doing. They prolly want to show the courts how > >bad hackers can get so they can conjure up some support in forthcomming > >trials. C'mon the sysadmins aren't fools, they surely see their own site. Dungeon Master wrote: > this is a very highly possible conclusion... and I wouldn't go against it. > I the traditional since.. r00ts know there shit... and if the operator(s) of > DOJ didn't know how firewall down the country's own Justice web page.. then > we have some serious measures to be taken on lack of education in there > part.. and furthermore they would have portrayed it as lack of security > there and point the theoretical finger at the site admin.. but no, it > didn't happen. folks, I think its a scam... not only for these reasons... > but just look at the material that was altered... I am sorry.. but speaking > from some exp. here... if I had access to some place like that.. I wouldn't > have bothered de-facing what the public sees... I would rather have gone to > a more effective means of sabotage.. to the root of the system.. to data > storage and records.. the real hackers out there are the ones who don't > make themselves known. And particular thing to note is that *indecency*. - Vipul vipul at pobox.com From vipul at pobox.com Thu Aug 22 14:46:13 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:46:13 +0800 Subject: Spamming In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960821145232.006fe294@tansoft.com> Message-ID: <199608221455.OAA00207@fountainhead.net> > > At 06:09 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > No. I think we can all (most) agree that spam-email is like junk-snailmail. > In that case there are a few things to consider: > > 1. Junkmail requires the SENDER to pay for it, not the recipient. Internet pricing models are complicated and debatable, but you surely end up paying for snail-junk-mail. Not directly, but hidden in the high first-class mail costs. More mail, more infrastructure, higher costs. This could be quite true for the net also, if we consider bandwidth costs money. Vipul -- Vipul Ved Prakash Voice 91 11 2247802 Fax 91 11 3328849 198 Madhuban, IP Extension, Delhi 110 092, INDIA From wendigo at pobox.com Thu Aug 22 14:47:13 1996 From: wendigo at pobox.com (Mark Rogaski) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:47:13 +0800 Subject: RFC1984 on Cryptographic Technology (fwd) Message-ID: <199608221804.OAA20272@charon.gti.net> An entity claiming to be RFC Editor wrote: >From majordom at ISI.EDU Thu Aug 22 13:27 EDT 1996 Message-Id: <199608201538.AA03394 at zephyr.isi.edu> To: rfc-dist at ISI.EDU Subject: RFC1984 on Cryptographic Technology Cc: rfc-ed at ISI.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 08:40:50 PDT From: RFC Editor Sender: owner-rfc-dist at ISI.EDU Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=NextPart Content-Length: 3011 --NextPart A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 1984: Title: IAB and IESG Statement on Cryptographic Technology and the Internet Author: IAB & IESG Date: August 1996 Mailbox: brian at dxcoms.cern.ch, fred at cisco.com Pages: 5 Characters: 10,738 Updates/Obsoletes: none URL: ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc1984.txt The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) and the Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG), the bodies which oversee architecture and standards for the Internet, are concerned by the need for increased protection of international commercial transactions on the Internet, and by the need to offer all Internet users an adequate degree of privacy. Security mechanisms being developed in the Internet Engineering Task Force to meet these needs require and depend on the international use of adequate cryptographic technology. Ready access to such technology is therefore a key factor in the future growth of the Internet as a motor for international commerce and communication. This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST at CNRI.RESTON.VA.US. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST at ISI.EDU. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info at ISI.EDU with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info at ISI.EDU Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to admin at DS.INTERNIC.NET. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR at ISI.EDU. Please consult RFC 1543, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. Joyce K. Reynolds USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the RFCs. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv at ds.internic.net" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <960820082910.RFC at ISI.EDU> SEND /rfc/rfc1984.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="rfc1984.txt"; site="ds.internic.net"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="rfc" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <960820082910.RFC at ISI.EDU> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -- Mark Rogaski | Why read when you can just sit and | Member GTI System Admin | stare at things? | Programmers Local wendigo at gti.net | Any expressed opinions are my own | # 0xfffe wendigo at pobox.com | unless they can get me in trouble. | APL-CPIO From vipul at pobox.com Thu Aug 22 14:52:32 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:52:32 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608221447.OAA00185@fountainhead.net> > > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > There are technological fixes which I would favor over attempts to ban > > unwanted messages. > > In the meantime, before these technological fixes are easily implemented, > what is the proper way to handle unwanted commercial mail? > > 1) delete immediately > > 2) reply with 'Fuck off, morons!' > > 3) as in 2) plus an attachment of some 1Mb file > > 4) as in 3) plus a CC to the postmaster of the sending site > > What if the spam says: 'Do only reply to this if you want > further contact with us' etc? > > Does anybody have good advice, including risks for retaliation > from the vendors/postmasters for such 're-spam'? Informal law! The first content line could be "This is un-solicited mail". Then the MTA will remove it. Sender who doesnot put this line in his spam should be mailbombed. Though this kind of arrangement doesn't mean that spam is nice thing if it has the line in it. - Vipul From pjb at ny.ubs.com Thu Aug 22 15:13:42 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (pjb at ny.ubs.com) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:13:42 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608221840.OAA03501@sherry.ny.ubs.com> jimmy carter proved that we anyone could be president, and it looks like clinton is proving that we don't really need a president. -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Thu Aug 22 03:09:20 1996 > X-Sender: jimbell at mail.pacifier.com > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:36:23 -0800 > To: Brian Davis > From: jim bell > Subject: Re: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks > Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 1492 > > At 02:47 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: > >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > > > >> Rush Limbaugh reports: > >> > >> That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". > >> > >> The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of > us) > >> were mentioned that they deemed threatening. > > > > > >"I hope you die." > > Doesn't sound much like a "threat" to me. > > > And the couple was arrestd for disorderly conduct by > >Chicago police. > > It sounds to me like the Chicops were just showing their "loyalty" by > sitting on somebody, not that they believed any real crime had been committed. > > > Any possible federal charges for threatening a president > >in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 871 await a determination of the > >seriousness of the statement, in context with the wife's conduct, by > >prosecutors. I predict no action. > > But it isn't even a "threat", regardless of how "serious" it was. The "I > hope you die" part is, presumably, a statement of fact: She did, indeed, > hope he dies. But I don't see how hoping this can be considered a threat, > or even SAYING she's hoping this is, likewise. > > > Makes me wonder whether visiting one of these appearances with a "Clinton > Doll" and a bunch of pins, and visibly inserting those pins into the doll > (while uttering various strange incantations), would constitute a "threat." > > Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be > protected by thugs. > > Jim Bell > jimbell at pacifier.com > From pjb at ny.ubs.com Thu Aug 22 15:16:24 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (pjb at ny.ubs.com) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:16:24 +0800 Subject: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti... Message-ID: <199608221833.OAA03498@sherry.ny.ubs.com> as i recall, you are free to advocate almost anything, as long as you don't advocate it by violent means. -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Thu Aug 22 03:09:01 1996 > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:58:32 -0700 (PDT) > From: Michelle KC5KYO > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti... > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 1141 > > > I do not believe that freedom of speech in the U.S.A. extends to actively > > agitating for secession or the overthrow of the federal government. > > The right to discuss revolt or secession or the overthrow of the federal > government, it seems to me, is given below: > > "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created > equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable > Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of > Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted > among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the > Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of > these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, > and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such > Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall > seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ... " > > Now this is the Declaration of Independence, and not the Constitution, but > it seems to me that the right to discuss "agitating for secession or the > overthrow of the federal government" is protected. > > Michelle > > From pjb at ny.ubs.com Thu Aug 22 15:16:43 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (pjb at ny.ubs.com) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:16:43 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608221826.OAA03492@sherry.ny.ubs.com> perhaps we should all add a line to our sigs to the effect that we hope he dies, and soon, natural causes, of course. Hmmm, what exactly does 'natural death' include? -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Wed Aug 21 18:31:29 1996 > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:47:57 -0400 (EDT) > From: Brian Davis > To: Scottauge at aol.com > Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 661 > > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > > > Rush Limbaugh reports: > > > > That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". > > > > The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of us) > > were mentioned that they deemed threatening. > > > "I hope you die." And the couple was arrestd for disorderly conduct by > Chicago police. Any possible federal charges for threatening a president > in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 871 await a determination of the > seriousness of the statement, in context with the wife's conduct, by > prosecutors. I predict no action. > > EBD > > > > > Ahhh, good to live in a free country.... > > > From pjb at ny.ubs.com Thu Aug 22 15:19:26 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (pjb at ny.ubs.com) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:19:26 +0800 Subject: HP supporting GAK, export controls Message-ID: <199608221831.OAA03495@sherry.ny.ubs.com> HP seems to have outlived their usefulness. sad, isn't it, when a really first class operation has to die. and to go out in such a ignoble way. the `ole boys' must not be resting well in their graves. -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Wed Aug 21 18:31:33 1996 > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:11:34 -0700 (PDT) > From: Lucky Green > Subject: HP supporting GAK, export controls > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 1394 > > [Sorry, the last one went out without a subject] > > HP is in the process of ramroding a pro-GAK, pro-export control > resolution through CommerceNet's public policy working group. > > Here are the details. > > HP is marketing several DES products that currently can not be sold > abroad. In order to be allowed to sell these products, HP is willing to > give the USG the following in return: > > > 1. Support by CommerceNet to have GAK built into the (inevitable) > domestic PKI. [Their presentation included the word "voluntary". When I > asked what was meant by that, I got the reply "There are many > interpretations of the word "voluntary"." Suffice to say there are > fundamental differences in what I mean by "voluntary" and what their > proposal would require the definition of "voluntary" to be.] > > 2. Support by CommerceNet for export restrictions on stronger forms of > crypto than DES as well as restrictions on export of crypto for products > not directly related (in HP's opinion) to ecommerce, such as email. > > This ill conceived attempt to use CommerceNet's clout as industry > organization to liberalize export rules on HP's products, and those of a > few other companies supporting HP in this effort, at a heavy cost to > everybody else, must be stopped. Please let HP know how you feel about > their initiative and encourage CommerceNet to adopt an anti-GAK, > anti-export control position. > > --Lucky > > > > From maldrich at grci.com Thu Aug 22 16:05:56 1996 From: maldrich at grci.com (Mark O. Aldrich) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 07:05:56 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Mysterious Numbers in Hacked DOJ Pages Message-ID: This should be good for a conspiracy thread or two: I've noticed that nobody seems to be taking credit for the DOJ hack. In studying the hacked page (I thought maybe they'd leave a clue as to who they were), I noticed that on the top right corner of the page, there are two sets of numbers. The first says "1020" and the second says "757." The are stored in the same .JPG file, 1020757.jpg. In poking around the HTML source, the following appears in the source code, but not on the actual page when it's in a browser (HTML source comments): Note that this time, the numbers are in the reverse order. (Also note that 202.757.1020 does not appear to be the DOJ phone number - I tried). For all I know, these numbers are relevant to the CDA or some other legal/legislative source. Or maybe I'm missing something really obvious. Anyone have any insight into what the numbers actually mean? Could there be some crypto (key?) relevance here that we're missing? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Just as the strength of the Internet is |Mark Aldrich | |chaos, so the strength of our liberty |GRCI INFOSEC Engineering | |depends upon the chaos and cacophony of |maldrich at grci.com | |the unfettered speech the First Amendment|MAldrich at dockmaster.ncsc.mil | |protects - District Judge Stewart Dalzell| | |_______________________________________________________________________| |The author is PGP Empowered. Public key at: finger maldrich at grci.com | | The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author | | and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rich at c2.org Thu Aug 22 16:41:04 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 07:41:04 +0800 Subject: Republican and Democratic party platforms [NOT!] on technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote: > But the benefit of having a pro-privacy statement in the platform (which in > fact was watered down significantly from that originally proposed by > advocates on our side) is that the platform covers Republican Party > candidates for any office, not just the presidency. One Republican staffer sent you an ass-kissing note quoting an ALLEGED piece of the platform WHICH IS NOT ACTUALLY THERE. The platform was finalized on August 12th. The text you quoted is not even in the list of rejected amendments. I assume that either you or the staffer you talked to innocently mistook some Senator's position paper for the platform; it's hard to believe that anyone would intentionally lie about something that is so trivial to check. Even if the text you passed on were part of the platform, I fail to see the importance of a feel-good statement in a platform that the party's presidential candidate CLAIMS NOT TO HAVE EVEN READ. Also from the Republican Platform (perhaps out of context, but unlike the text some anonymous alleged Republican staffer sent you, this is actually in the platform): [...] In a Dole Administration, U. S. Attorneys will prosecute and jail those who prey upon the innocent. We support upgrading our interdiction effort by establishing a Deputy Commissioner for Drug Enforcement within the Customs Service. We will intensify our intelligence efforts against international drug traffickers and use whatever means necessary to destroy their operations and seize their personal accounts. We support strong penalties, including mandatory minimum sentences, for drug trafficking, distribution and drug-related crimes. Drug use is closely related to crime and recidivism. Drug testing should be made a routine feature of the criminal justice process at every stage, including the juvenile justice system. Test results should be used in deciding pretrial release, sentencing, and probation revocation. [...] Terrorist states have made a comeback during Bill Clinton's Administration. He has treated their rulers with undue respect and failed to curb their acquisition of weapons of mass destruction. Although congressional Republicans passed anti-terrorism legislation earlier this year, the Clinton Administration has not implemented many key provisions of the law. It has not been used to freeze terrorists' assets, deny terrorists' visas, cut off foreign aid to supporters of terrorist states, or halt terrorist fundraising in the United States. The Clinton Administration has not implemented the anti-terrorist research program established and funded by Congress in the 1990 Aviation Security Act. [...] Our technological edge is at risk not only because of the Clinton Administration's refusal to sustain an adequate investment in defense modernization, but also its virtual abandonment of national security-related export controls. Acquisition of technology by aspiring proliferators of weapons of mass destruction has been irresponsibly facilitated. A Republican Administration will protect the American technological edge. It will do so by expanding investment in defense modernization, ensuring that the Defense Department has a key role in approving exports of militarily critical technology, and restoring the effectiveness of export control regimes. [...] The intelligence community should be our first line of defense against terrorism, drug trafficking, nuclear proliferation, and foreign espionage. Bill Clinton's neglect of our country's intelligence service is one of his most serious sins of omission. He has underfunded, misutilized, and marginalized critical intelligence missions and capabilities. No wonder his first appointee as Director of Central Intelligence has endorsed Bob Dole. The nation's security - and the personal safety of our citizens - cannot be placed at risk. Effective intelligence can be expensive. But what it costs is measured in dollars rather than lives - an important lesson of the Gulf War. A Republican Administration will reverse the decline in funding for intelligence personnel and operations while better managing the development of futuristic capabilities. We will not constrain U.S. intelligence personnel with "politically correct" standards that impede their ability to collect and act on intelligence information. We will conduct whatever intelligence operations are necessary to safeguard American lives against the terrorists who bomb our airplanes and buildings. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMhy5wpNcNyVVy0jxAQFvgwH9FR9ZQca520mSuqhDO7OKLe6duAJAQ+HO FP4UPnLWJZtOrI9LvWiX5EHoqG0RtaS2FwwMuwGZQedb8YdkW4QWUw== =XdnD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gary at systemics.com Thu Aug 22 17:39:10 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:39:10 +0800 Subject: U.S. Army Private Faces Spying Charges In-Reply-To: <9608221711.AA00368@bksmp2.FRB.GOV> Message-ID: <321CD0C2.4487EB71@systemics.com> Thomas C. Allard wrote: > > His father said an Army major at Fort Bragg, whom he declined to name, > had urged him to persuade his son to sign a confession, so prosecutors > would not seek the death penalty. Isn't plea bargaining wonderful? Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 From jad at dsddhc.com Thu Aug 22 17:54:39 1996 From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:54:39 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960822220224.006a0ff0@labg30> At 02:55 PM 8/22/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> >> At 06:09 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: [deleted] >> 1. Junkmail requires the SENDER to pay for it, not the recipient. > Internet pricing models are complicated and debatable, but you surely > end up paying for snail-junk-mail. Not directly, but hidden in the high > first-class mail costs. More mail, more infrastructure, higher costs. > This could be quite true for the net also, if we consider bandwidth costs > money. I beg to differ. The USPS considers "junk" mail their bread-and-butter. Huge mailings of all manner of bulk mail (especially those that are PostNet barcoded by the sender) pay the bills around the Post Office. Your "more mail, more infrastructure, higher costs" argument is flawed. The post office has many fixed costs related to maintaining their huge presence, delivering to so many rural addresses. If we had to pay a per-letter basis *discounting* the value provided by the infrastructure already in place supporting the bulk-mail handling systems, we'd be paying roughly Federal Express 2-day letter rates for each piece of mail (around $6.00, if memory serves correctly.) I do not say this to begin yet another "Privatize the USPS" rant. I also am not interested in whether or not the USPS should be privatized, have its criminal law protctions stripped, or even if the postmaster general should report our stamp purchasing habits to Janet Reno. All I'm saying is that the above statement ("junk mail = higher costs") is false. John -- J. Deters "Captain's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull." +-------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: jad at dsddhc.com (work) jad at pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | PGP Key ID: 768 / 15FFA875 | +-------------------------------------------------------+ From mccoy at communities.com Thu Aug 22 18:04:33 1996 From: mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:04:33 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: vipul at pobox.com wrote: > > At 06:09 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > > > No. I think we can all (most) agree that spam-email is like junk-snailmail. > > In that case there are a few things to consider: > > > > 1. Junkmail requires the SENDER to pay for it, not the recipient. > > Internet pricing models are complicated and debatable, but you surely > end up paying for snail-junk-mail. Not directly, but hidden in the high > first-class mail costs. More mail, more infrastructure, higher costs. > This could be quite true for the net also, if we consider bandwidth costs > money. Actually I believe that without "junk mail" costs for regular postage would probably be higher: less mail = fewer packages over which to amortize the cost of building the infrastructure necessary for ubiquitous messaging. Direct-mail organizations get a lower rate by doing a lot of the expensive parts of post office work themselves (pre-sorting the mail by zip code, barcoding messages, etc) and not necessrily just based upon volume. For all the bitching Americans do about the high cost of first-class mail it is still the least expensive of any western nation and offers fairly good service (and the USPS actually made a profit for the last two years so it is unlikely that the cost will go up for a while...) jim From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 22 18:05:38 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:05:38 +0800 Subject: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity In-Reply-To: <1Ri2sD70w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Message-ID: > Alaska rightfully belongs to Russia The Aleuts still study Russian in their schools and use it in Church. Mr Zhieranovsky (spelling) who recently pointed that out during the run-up to the election campaign, also mentioned his prelimiary plan to reverse the net population loss of ethnic Russians: He'd father a child in every province. The dude has got my vote. From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 22 18:14:20 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:14:20 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton SucksHusband/Wife jailed for say In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:28:42 -0500 (CDT) > From: nathan poznick > think of all the nuclear testing that went on during his time in office... Nuclear testing has killed less women than the senior US Senator from Massachusetts. From sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org Thu Aug 22 18:20:09 1996 From: sunder at dorsai.dorsai.org (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:20:09 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > But I agree that "no action" is pretty likely. "I hope you die" has been a > time-honored insult at least since I was a kindergartner, and presumably > for many decades prior to this. Hardly an active threat. Yeah, well it's pretty lame as far as threats go, two key words there are "hope" and "die," what's missing is a time frame and intent of action. Everyone after all does day, that hope isn't hopeless, but it's not a threat either. Silly assed our president, but then again what else can he do to prove himself a jerk. As for me, I don't hope he dies, he will after all after many years, die of old age. No, I hope he doesn't get elected. That's what I hope. :^) Not that I'd want Dole either. :( How about you Tim, when are you running for prez? Heheheh! ========================================================================== + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\== \|/ |sunder at dorsai.org|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\= <--+-->| --------------- |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/= /|\ | Just Say "No" to|KA|law abridging the freedom of speech' |==\|/== + v + | Janet Reno & GAK|AK| do you not understand? |======= ===================http://www.dorsai.org/~sunder/========================= Key Escrow Laws are the mating calls of those who'd abuse your privacy! From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 22 18:21:13 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:21:13 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: At 2:55 PM 8/22/96, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> > > Internet pricing models are complicated and debatable, but you surely > end up paying for snail-junk-mail. Not directly, but hidden in the high > first-class mail costs. More mail, more infrastructure, higher costs. Actually, precisely the opposite is true, according to a number of studies. "Bulk mail" is a major profit center for the Postal Service, thus subsidizing non-bulk /first class mail. -- Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 22 18:22:18 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:22:18 +0800 Subject: telco's vs x-phones Message-ID: <199608222206.PAA24858@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:32 PM 8/21/96 -0400, John Brothers wrote: > >I think you both have good points here. I will redo the math. > >At 09:19 AM 8/21/96 -0700, Brian D Williams wrote: >>In a reply to Vipul Ved Prakash, Jim Bell wrote: >>Siecore plain vanilla 36 fiber singlemode list $ 1.82 a foot, $5.46 >>a yard. > >Jim said $10/meter, so about 50% of his estimate. > > >> >>>Each fiber pair should be able to handle approximately 1 million >>>conversations at current data rates, or a total of 18 million >>>conversations for that 18-pair cable, or 9.5 trillion >>>conversation-minutes. >> >>At current data rates (OC-48 Sonet) 32,256 voice channels per >>fiber, 580,608 total for the fiber. > >Ok.. I think we're talking apples and oranges. Jim uses the term conversation, >which I assume is a 3 minute duration of time. Your OC-48 handles almost >precisely 1 million conversations per day. (32k DS0 x 24 * 60 * 20) My error was being off a deciminal point. I was thinking around 6.4 gigabits per second, which works out to 100,000 channels at 64,000 bits per second per channel, not 1 million. However, even my selection of 6.4 gigabits per second is arbitrary: I have seen at least two ads for 80 gigabit (8 channels/fiber at 10 gigabits per channel) for fiber optic systems. But my goal is not to make fiber look unrealistically good, but to generate a ballpark figure. >>>Multiply this cost by 10 for right of way, trenching, repeaters, >>>and other auxiliary hardware, or $100 per meter. This is probably >>>just a ballpark estimate, but... >> >>Off by a factor of at least 10 not counting switching equipment. > >So, assume that he's a long haul carrier, and doesn't have to buy any >switching equipment. Still, based on $500/meter, that means >that this network cost about 2.5 billion to build. Even long-haul carriers must have SOME switching equipment. But as you note, my point is that the difference between local and LD costs is simply the fact of the insertion of some arbitrarily large amount of fiber trunk between the local switches. LD companies still deserve to be paid, but the AMOUNT that they are paid maybe should drop to an arbitrarily low level as their costs drop. >So if the system was running at full capacity, 24/7/365, the LD will have >to charge $0.50/conversation, or $0.15/minute to make 2.5 billion per year. > >Even reaching 10% of that capacity is unlikely at $5/conversation. > >Which, clearly, isn't happening. I assume that either I have made a >mistake in my calculations, or the costs of laying fiber has been >grossly overestimated... Yes, I think the costs laying fiber are still a bit opaque. The main reason one of the first alternative telephone LD services (Sprint) was that it was the creature of Southern Pacific Railways, who (obviously) owned a large amount of (ta da!) RIGHT-OF-WAY. And, more particularly, right of way that was well-connected, easily accessible, and easily diggable to install the fiber. They decided they were going to put in a fiber communications system for the railroad, and at some (early?) point realized that since the cost of the trenching and fiber is basically fixed, so turning it into an LD service was going to be relatively straightforward. >Or, that since no-one is going around and buying >up 5000km right of ways, Sprint, MCI, AT&T and co. can lay fiber >much more cheaply. If we assume $50/meter, it will cost 250 million, and they >will have to charge $0.015/minute to break even at 100% capacity, or >$0.15/minute at 10% capacity - and we know Sprint charges less than that, >but if they can get more than 10% of the capacity --- although it is doubtful. (I think you still need to go back and re-check some of your figures. Yes, I did make that decimal point error, but I think you've added a few (different) errors of your own.) Now, keep in mind that a little perusing of these numbers (even if they are not exact) reveals an few interesting facts: The cost of doing the right-of-way/trenching is essentially independant of the number of fibers that you intend to lay. Moreover, the cost of the fiber itself is very low. In other words, everything being equal, you want to pack as many fibers into a trench as you can. Add to this, the fact that you can provide a way for fiber in a buried conduit, and later (years?) blow in new fiber. The line I saw installed, "up close and personal," had three separate ways for cable, and the one cable being installed immediately was 36 fibers. Had two similar fibers been installed in the other ways, that's 108 fibers, and at 2.4 gigabits per second, that's about 54x40,000 simultaneous bidirectional conversations, or 2.16 million. There are probably very few communications corridors that need more capacity than this. The obvious limit of this is that there is only a fairly limited demand for bit transmission (at least, compared with the capacities possible with fiber). In addition is the fact that once you have modern-quality fiber installed, you can increase capacity by changing the optics/electronics. It wasn't too many years ago that 400 (?) megabits/second or so was a fairly standard rate. 2.4 gigabits/sec supplanted it a few years ago, and speeds substantially greater than this are straightforward today. AT+T claims to supply fiber now, and electronics/optics within a few months, to allow 80 gigabits per fiber, or about 32 times more than 2.4. This should immediately explain why you aren't seeing a lot of trenching: Except for the natural desire among engineers to duplicate trenches along major routes to protect against "trencher fade" (accidental cuts), it won't really pay to put in more than a couple trenched routes between most major cities, if they're separated by "boonies." It's far more economical for multiple companies to share a single route, or a pair of routes. (there is an obvious exception if the whole area is developed, such as extended corridors like Washington/New York/Boston.) >My best assumption at this point is that we don't have to make back the entire >cost of the fiber per year to make a profit. if we only have to earn 20% >of its value to make a 10% profit, it would bring the price down to >$0.075/minute, and if we were to get OC-768 systems invented, we could reduce >that to $0.005/minute, which is approaching the values that Jim derived. The value of an investment is compared to the average interest rate paid. However, that's probably too conservative with a fast-changing market like telecom today. Even so, if a system paid back profit at 10% of the investment per year, it would probably be considered a very profitable investment, and I agree with your figure of 20% before fixed costs. >So, I hate to say it, but it looks like long distance is more expensive >than Jim (or I) thought. But, in a few years (say, 5) it will approach >ridiculously cheap. We can expect at that point that either >a) All (or most) long distance will be over the Internet >b) Internet phone will vanish as regular long distance becomes a flat fee > like local service. Probably closer to the latter. The main lesson from these calculations is that fiber's costs are almost entirely based on their one-time installation cost, not a continuing maintenance cost. True, the installation must be paid for, but that translates into an interest charge that is very low. In view of the fact that the billing for telephone is supposedly half of the phoneco's cost, it will make sense that all telephone service will turn into a flat monthly fee, "enforced" by the possibility of Internet telephone for the few recalcitrant companies/countries who resist the transition. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 22 18:54:34 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:54:34 +0800 Subject: USPS Message-ID: You didn't quote the full thing: At 5:14 PM 8/22/96, Bruce M. wrote: >Web Week, July 8, 1996, p3 > The Postal Service's attorneys have told the USPS that the tampering >part of the current federal law would transfer to the electronic space, >and that the mail fraud portion might also apply... > > "We're a trusted third party," Saunders said. "We don't have any >interest in learning your trade secrets. However, we do have an interest >in your reading habits, and we sometimes send, unsolicited, samples of >child pornography to our customers, and then notify the proper authorities >that one of our customers has taken the bait." (Though I made up this last part, it represents reality. Postal inspectors frequently collaborate with various national and international authorities on matters involving pornography, fraud, pyramid schemes, and the sending of various sorts of contraband. While FedEx, UPS, Airborne, etc., may occasionally cooperate when a crime is called to their attention, I know of no cases where Federal Express, for example, has become a willing and leading partner in setting up stings. This is why the "Postal Service," despite nominal status as a a quasi-independent corporation, is actually yet another enforcement arm of the government.) The Postal Service probably has zero chance of getting into the e-mail business in any fashion, much as they might want to. Businesses see too many advantages in direct transmission, and are unlikely to hand the USPS some money for the dubious benefit of slowing down the mail and (maybe) adding some kind of signature. This is a case where businesses are fully able to understand the role of independent encryption, signatures, credentialling agencies, etc. "Postal anarchy" is already the accepted norm for e-mail. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 22 19:15:33 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:15:33 +0800 Subject: [rant] Re: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960821203026.00c82314@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > At 05:49 PM 8/20/96 +0000, Ross Wright wrote: > >On Or About 20 Aug 96, 16:23, Jim Gillogly wrote: > >> Vipul Ved Prakash writes: > >> >I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of > >> >spamming here? Is spamming free speech? > >> I oppose spamming because it's rude and inefficient, lowering the > >> S/N everywhere it happens. Market droids > >Market Droids???? As a salesman I take offence at this slur. > It is a mild term compared to some of the things that could be said about sales. > I have dealt with far too many sales people. Few of them knew anything > about the products that they were selling. (This is especially true of the > computer field. "Do you know the difference between a computer salesman and > a car salesman? The car salesman knows how to drive.") The way I heard it was that the Car Salesman knew he was lying. > But then, rarely does truth enter into the matter of sales... > Sales people have a bad reputation for a very good reason. If they actually > had a basic understanding of what they were selling, and were not so > untrustworthy as to not commit to things that are not deliverable, they > would have that reputation. Then they would not be sales people. Good salesmen are like good governments. Very Very Rare. o.b. Crypto: Uh...Uh...Uh... Testing one way hashes on SalesDroids. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From zachb at netcom.com Thu Aug 22 19:18:41 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:18:41 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <199608221826.OAA03492@sherry.ny.ubs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 1996 pjb at ny.ubs.com wrote: > perhaps we should all add a line to our sigs to the effect that we hope > he dies, and soon, natural causes, of course. Hmmm, what exactly does > 'natural death' include? > > -paul When I read this, a quote from a certain famous sci-fi writer came to mind: "All forms of death are ultimately due to heart failure." --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 22 19:26:36 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:26:36 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <199608221826.OAA03492@sherry.ny.ubs.com> Message-ID: pjb at ny.ubs.com writes: > perhaps we should all add a line to our sigs to the effect that we hope > he dies, and soon, natural causes, of course. Hmmm, what exactly does > 'natural death' include? AIDS. And don't forget to mention that he sucks. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu Thu Aug 22 19:36:50 1996 From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:36:50 +0800 Subject: (fwd) ANNOUNCE: Free Little PGP Credit Card App Message-ID: <199608222354.TAA21158@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> >From: "David j. Sopuch" Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.misc Subject: ANNOUNCE: Free Little PGP Credit Card App Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:00:24 -0400 Organization: Datamax Research corp. Lines: 10 Message-ID: <321C8418.2647 at iwinpak.com> v2.08 of the iWinpak Internet Payment System is now available in both freeware and shareware versions at http://www.iwinpak.com Dave -- http://www.iwinpak.com Try the iWinpak Internet Payment System - the Free little PGP Credit Card app *** PageCommerce (tm) - the $99 No Server PGP Commerce Solution *** -- http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information EmmaGoldmanCamillePagliaMarieCurieAynRandSapphoDianaToriAmosPJHarvey&Demona Living in dread with your fragile brain and the executioner's got your number I feel a groove comin' on -:- Freedom...yeah, right. From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 22 19:44:55 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:44:55 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton SucksHusband/Wife jailed for say In-Reply-To: <199608220141.SAA05126@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, John C. Randolph wrote: > > Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be > > protected by thugs. > Well, wouldn't that require a president who had a clear conscience? > I don't think we've had one of those since Eisenhower! Eisenhower? That recent huh? Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 22 19:51:08 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:51:08 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > At 6:04 PM 8/21/96, Gary Howland wrote: > >Often I'll ask a stupid question too ("Does your software work in > >France?"). If more people did this, then they'd have to choose their > >victims a bit more carefully in the future (assuming of course they're > >trying to sell something). > > As I said in my last message, I don't even do this--I just bounce it back > to them. > I see no need to "ask questions" (such as "Does it work in France?") to, > perhaps, "establish legitimacy." If they sent it to me, I can send it back. > Simple. I think that the purpose of asking a question is to consume _more_ of their time. If they read it, they have to decide if and how to respond. Cousme more of their resources. It might even be interesting to write a script that automatically inserts a silly question (like "does it work in france") and mails it back with the single stroke of a key. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From rich at c2.org Thu Aug 22 19:58:13 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:58:13 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Mysterious Numbers in Hacked DOJ Pages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Mark O. Aldrich wrote: > This should be good for a conspiracy thread or two: I'm game. > I've noticed that nobody seems to be taking credit for the DOJ hack. In > studying the hacked page (I thought maybe they'd leave a clue as to who > they were), I noticed that on the top right corner of the page, there are > two sets of numbers. The first says "1020" and the second says "757." > The are stored in the same .JPG file, 1020757.jpg. In poking around the Try the 908 area code, from which the initial report to alt.2600 came. I haven't tried the number, because I don't want to incriminate myself, but 757 appears to be a valid exchange. The Cisco 1020 has a default password that some people forget to change. A Boeing 757 went down under mysterious circumstances recently. The time was approximately 10:20 AM. Why hasn't the press reported whether a close Clinton associate involved in the Mena affair was aboard that plane? Hmmmmm. Add the numbers up and you get 1777, "the shot heard 'round the world." What was going on in Area 51 last week? 1-888-757-1020 is mysteriously "unreachable" now. -rich From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 22 20:12:15 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:12:15 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Brian Davis wrote: > On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, jim bell wrote: > > At 02:47 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: > > >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > > >> Rush Limbaugh reports: > > >> That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". > > Doesn't sound much like a "threat" to me. > > > And the couple was arrestd for disorderly conduct by > > >Chicago police. > > It sounds to me like the Chicops were just showing their "loyalty" by > > sitting on somebody, not that they believed any real crime had been committed. > Nope. When police started to ask the couple questions, they began > screaming obscenities and generally causing a scene. Chicago cops, being > what they are, are likely to arrest someone in that circumstance without > any prodding. I'm not saying they should, but they will. 1) Not that I have noticed. I get people around here screaming and carrying on 24/7, and the cops just drive by looking for teenage black kids that look suspicious. 2) Funny that isn't what I got out of listening to eye witnesses on the radio. The woman started screaming at Herr Klinton, then the goons moved in and she got more agaited. Her husband told her to shut up and not say anything else until he got an attorney, so the SS arrested him as well. > > > Any possible federal charges for threatening a president > > >in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 871 await a determination of the > > >seriousness of the statement, in context with the wife's conduct, by > > >prosecutors. I predict no action. > > But it isn't even a "threat", regardless of how "serious" it was. The "I > > hope you die" part is, presumably, a statement of fact: She did, indeed, > > hope he dies. But I don't see how hoping this can be considered a threat, > > or even SAYING she's hoping this is, likewise. > The statement must be considered in context with their conduct, but as I > said before, I predict no action. Bullshit. Herr Klinton & goons desend into a crowd that _doesn't_ know they are coming, and he starts to "press the flesh" with startled people, and one of them starts to scream at him, that is not a death threat (especially given the political nature of what she was screaming. If she had said something like "I am going to kick your ass", that would be a threat.). > > Frankly, I'd rather have a president who didn't feel the need to be > > protected by thugs. > That's because you like dead Presidents. Funny, Miterand (sp?) used to wander around the streets of Paris with just one or two body guards. Besides, I like dead presidents. The more of them I have, the better. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From rwright at adnetsol.com Thu Aug 22 20:36:19 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:36:19 +0800 Subject: USPS Message-ID: <199608230100.SAA29412@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 22 Aug 96, 8:37, Timothy C. May wrote: > (Though I made up this last part, it represents reality. Postal > inspectors frequently collaborate with various national and > international authorities on matters involving pornography, fraud, > pyramid schemes, and the sending of various sorts of contraband. > While FedEx, UPS, Airborne, etc., may occasionally cooperate when a I'm afraid that Fed-X would drop their drawers if presented with a federal warrant. I guess you could call that co-operation. > crime is called to their attention, I know of no cases where Federal > Express, for example, has become a willing and leading partner in > setting up stings. No, I don't think they would do something like that. The Post Office IS just like an arm of the federal government, even though you would need a federal warrant in order to search packages. > > "Postal anarchy" is already the accepted norm for e-mail. > > --Tim May > Can I quote you on that? Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From furballs at netcom.com Thu Aug 22 20:38:28 1996 From: furballs at netcom.com (Paul S. Penrod) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:38:28 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <199608212046.NAA23129@mycroft.rand.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Jim Gillogly wrote: > > "Paul S. Penrod" writes: > >Practically, it would be better to allow and promote a technological > >outlet for all of this, as it will never go away, so long as the medium > >exists. > > The technological outlet already exists: polite marketers use Web pages, > so that people who are interested in their offerings can find them using > one of the search engines. Market droids (get over it, dude) are ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nothing to get over. That's Ross who has the problem with the term. > unwilling to reach only people who are interested in their products. > > Jim Gillogly > Trewesday, 29 Wedmath S.R. 1996, 20:45 > Web pages are only the *basis* for the outlet. By themselves, yes, they do provide a forum for advertisers, but the page by itself is not very efficient in terms of targeted demographics. That's why people get a wild hair and take matters into their own hands and launch spam in the hopes of finding the customers they thought would come flocking to them in droves. As the number of Web pages increase dramatically, the chances of getting a "first hit" diminish accordingly. Most people I know have neither the time or patience to wade through up to two hours of web surfing to find something that a few well placed phone calls and 10 minutes turns up said product or service. The issue is convenience, not technology. The majority of US consumers couldn't give a rat's ass about the Internet or the Web. They want their product or service and they want it now. When the Web becomes more convenient to use than the telephone, then you will see nirvana for Cybershopping. Right now that isn't happening. ...Paul From declan at eff.org Thu Aug 22 20:39:57 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:39:57 +0800 Subject: Republican and Democratic party platforms [NOT!] on technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I never really liked having my ass kissed much, so I'll find out the truth tomorrow. I got a fax sent from a Senate office yesterday saying that it was in the platform, even though it doesn't appear (yet) on the rnc.org web site -- a fact you'll note I mentioned in my original message. It was a good rant, though, Rich. Nicely done. -Declan On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > But the benefit of having a pro-privacy statement in the platform (which in > > fact was watered down significantly from that originally proposed by > > advocates on our side) is that the platform covers Republican Party > > candidates for any office, not just the presidency. > > One Republican staffer sent you an ass-kissing note quoting an ALLEGED piece > of the platform WHICH IS NOT ACTUALLY THERE. The platform was finalized on > August 12th. The text you quoted is not even in the list of rejected > amendments. I assume that either you or the staffer you talked to innocently > mistook some Senator's position paper for the platform; it's hard to believe > that anyone would intentionally lie about something that is so trivial to > check. > > Even if the text you passed on were part of the platform, I fail to see the > importance of a feel-good statement in a platform that the party's > presidential candidate CLAIMS NOT TO HAVE EVEN READ. > > Also from the Republican Platform (perhaps out of context, but unlike the > text some anonymous alleged Republican staffer sent you, this is actually > in the platform): > > [...] > > In a Dole Administration, U. S. Attorneys will prosecute and jail those who > prey upon the innocent. We support upgrading our interdiction effort by > establishing a Deputy Commissioner for Drug Enforcement within the Customs > Service. We will intensify our intelligence efforts against international > drug traffickers and use whatever means necessary to destroy their > operations and seize their personal accounts. > > We support strong penalties, including mandatory minimum sentences, for drug > trafficking, distribution and drug-related crimes. Drug use is closely > related to crime and recidivism. Drug testing should be made a routine > feature of the criminal justice process at every stage, including the > juvenile justice system. Test results should be used in deciding pretrial > release, sentencing, and probation revocation. > > [...] > > Terrorist states have made a comeback during Bill Clinton's Administration. > He has treated their rulers with undue respect and failed to curb their > acquisition of weapons of mass destruction. Although congressional > Republicans passed anti-terrorism legislation earlier this year, the Clinton > Administration has not implemented many key provisions of the law. It has > not been used to freeze terrorists' assets, deny terrorists' visas, cut off > foreign aid to supporters of terrorist states, or halt terrorist fundraising > in the United States. The Clinton Administration has not implemented the > anti-terrorist research program established and funded by Congress in the > 1990 Aviation Security Act. > > [...] > > Our technological edge is at risk not only because of the Clinton > Administration's refusal to sustain an adequate investment in defense > modernization, but also its virtual abandonment of national security-related > export controls. Acquisition of technology by aspiring proliferators of > weapons of mass destruction has been irresponsibly facilitated. A Republican > Administration will protect the American technological edge. It will do so > by expanding investment in defense modernization, ensuring that the Defense > Department has a key role in approving exports of militarily critical > technology, and restoring the effectiveness of export control regimes. > > [...] > > The intelligence community should be our first line of defense against > terrorism, drug trafficking, nuclear proliferation, and foreign espionage. > Bill Clinton's neglect of our country's intelligence service is one of his > most serious sins of omission. He has underfunded, misutilized, and > marginalized critical intelligence missions and capabilities. No wonder his > first appointee as Director of Central Intelligence has endorsed Bob Dole. > The nation's security - and the personal safety of our citizens - cannot be > placed at risk. > > Effective intelligence can be expensive. But what it costs is measured in > dollars rather than lives - an important lesson of the Gulf War. A > Republican Administration will reverse the decline in funding for > intelligence personnel and operations while better managing the development > of futuristic capabilities. We will not constrain U.S. intelligence > personnel with "politically correct" standards that impede their ability to > collect and act on intelligence information. We will conduct whatever > intelligence operations are necessary to safeguard American lives against > the terrorists who bomb our airplanes and buildings. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > iQBVAwUBMhy5wpNcNyVVy0jxAQFvgwH9FR9ZQca520mSuqhDO7OKLe6duAJAQ+HO > FP4UPnLWJZtOrI9LvWiX5EHoqG0RtaS2FwwMuwGZQedb8YdkW4QWUw== > =XdnD > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From rich at c2.org Thu Aug 22 20:45:13 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:45:13 +0800 Subject: Spamming In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960822220224.006a0ff0@labg30> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, John Deters wrote: > At 02:55 PM 8/22/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > >> 1. Junkmail requires the SENDER to pay for it, not the recipient. > > Internet pricing models are complicated and debatable, but you surely > > end up paying for snail-junk-mail. Not directly, but hidden in the high > > first-class mail costs. More mail, more infrastructure, higher costs. > > This could be quite true for the net also, if we consider bandwidth > > costs money. > > I beg to differ. The USPS considers "junk" mail their bread-and-butter. > Huge mailings of all manner of bulk mail (especially those that are PostNet > barcoded by the sender) pay the bills around the Post Office. Your "more > mail, more infrastructure, higher costs" argument is flawed. The post > office has many fixed costs related to maintaining their huge presence, > delivering to so many rural addresses. If we had to pay a per-letter basis > *discounting* the value provided by the infrastructure already in place > supporting the bulk-mail handling systems, we'd be paying roughly Federal > Express 2-day letter rates for each piece of mail (around $6.00, if memory > serves correctly.) True in broad outlines, but I think this $6 is exaggerated just a tad. Depends whether you mean the marginal cost of an unsubsidized piece of 1st class mail given the current infrastructure, or the share of a hypothetical 1st class-only mail system, I suppose. > I do not say this to begin yet another "Privatize the USPS" rant. Actually, if you're a consumer-scale mailer, it's a good argument for keeping the USPS heavily regulated. It certainly helps lubricate the flow of free speech among individuals and small groups. -rich From sryan at reading.com Thu Aug 22 21:48:09 1996 From: sryan at reading.com (steven ryan) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:48:09 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks the video Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960823023300.0071c9f0@reading.com> There was talk earlier about someone putting together a Cypherpunks video. What ever came of that? I now have access to an Avid nonlinear digital editor and would be interested in pursueing this. Steven ------------------------------------ Steven Ryan - Reading Access - sryan at reading.com PGP Fingerprint: E8 A2 C5 A2 7A C4 77 93 0A 1B 1D C6 B9 2F 36 9B Finger me for my PGP public key From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Thu Aug 22 22:02:47 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:02:47 +0800 Subject: USPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The USPS does have a role in the world of e-commerce, but I think it's likely to be much less than they think. Bilateral agreements are often more efficient for long-term work, but for general one-off transactions, it's cheaper to have a _small_ number of commonly trusted third parties. For this reason, I think it would make a lot of sense to have DMVs serve as certification agencies (a role they fill today). You don't necessarily have to trust them any more than you trust a drivers licence for applications where 100% certaintiy is what you need, but for your typical commercial situation it'll do fine. Simon. p.s. has anyone done any studies on the cost of making different kind of trust decisions (both of the 'trust a CA' and various orders of the web of trust model? (i.e. trust as introducer^n) --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From rwright at adnetsol.com Thu Aug 22 22:06:33 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:06:33 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608230233.TAA01338@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 22 Aug 96, 18:27, Paul S. Penrod wrote: On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Jim Gillogly wrote: > "Paul S. Penrod" writes: > > find them using one of the search engines. Market droids (get > > over it, dude) are >> > Nothing to get over. That's Ross who has the problem with the term. I'm over it. Hell, I can't even remember which side of this issue I'm on. ;-) Oh, yeah... I'm a sales-droid, looking for customers like a shark... Never stop moving..... Feed on the weak.... Yeah, that's where I'm at, yeah... Anyway, the consensus is that what I'm doing (that I thought WAS spam) is about as harmless as a cold call, so I'm personally vindicated. I like this next part: > The issue is convenience, not technology. The majority of US > consumers couldn't give a rat's ass about the Internet or the Web. > They want their product or service and they want it now. When the > Web becomes more convenient to use than the telephone, then you will > see nirvana for Cybershopping. Right now that isn't happening. I'm doing O.K., but I've go a product everyone still needs... And the consumers I want have been on the Internet for a long, long time. So all you geeky programmers (I mean that in the nicest way) buy your stuff from ME!!!! Hey!!! Was that SPAM!!!! HEY!!!!! Ross (Sales Droid) Wright =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From hal9001 at panix.com Thu Aug 22 22:58:14 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:58:14 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! In-Reply-To: <19960818051206140.AAC174@IO-ONLINE.COM> Message-ID: On 15 Aug 96 01:31:08 -0800, null at void.com wrote: >"In the 22 Jul 1996 issue of Fortune was an interesting look into the future >of automobile electronics, "Soon Your Dashboard Will Do Everything (Except >Steer)". " >From the control center, they can "electronically reach into the car" to >unlock the doors, or honk the horn and flash its lights." >It is extremely comforting to me -- I don't know about you -- to think >that GM will maintain a control center able to communicate with my auto >>electronics. Shit, why not TRW? Why, when I read this, do I keep getting flashes of Kirk&Co hacking into Kahn's Shipboard Computers to get it to drop the Ship's shields ? From hal9001 at panix.com Thu Aug 22 23:02:53 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:02:53 +0800 Subject: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti... In-Reply-To: <9607218406.AA840670454@smtplink.alis.ca> Message-ID: At 14:58 -0700 8/21/96, Michelle KC5KYO wrote: >> I do not believe that freedom of speech in the U.S.A. extends to actively >> agitating for secession or the overthrow of the federal government. > >The right to discuss revolt or secession or the overthrow of the federal >government, it seems to me, is given below: > >"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created >equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable >Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of >Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted >among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the >Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of >these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, >and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such >Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall >seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ... " > >Now this is the Declaration of Independence, and not the Constitution, but >it seems to me that the right to discuss "agitating for secession or the >overthrow of the federal government" is protected. > >Michelle Unfortunately, this went out the window about 130-135 years ago during the 5 year period sometimes called "The Late Unpleasantness" . From hal9001 at panix.com Thu Aug 22 23:06:15 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:06:15 +0800 Subject: forget photographing license plates! In-Reply-To: <19960818051206140.AAC174@IO-ONLINE.COM> Message-ID: At 3:19 -0500 8/18/96, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: >> >> I'm just waiting for them to integrate with TRW. Then, with people >> they've determined can afford a new one, they can trigger the car to have >> mysterious engine failures... > >Or the minute one falls behind on their bill, the engine doesn't start. > >This is legal, IIRC (I am not sure of the exact court case, but one >company had a software vendor disable their sales software by remote for >not paying their bill, and the court upheld the software vendor. I don't >remember the specifics on this.) Neither do I (exactly) but it was one of those cases where the program was leased for a period of time and was not to be used after this unless the new lease was paid. Normally, these types of programs start printing Count-Down warnings as the expiration date nears and the customer is supposed to enter a code (supplied by the vendor after paying for the extension of the lease) into the program to keep it running. I do not remember if the program was issuing this type of warning or not. I think that the court case was due to the way that the vendor crippled it for non-payment not the fact that it was done (since the Time Bomb code was standard industry practice and they just logged into the program to cripple it instead of just having it refuse to run after the trigger date). From qut at netcom.com Thu Aug 22 23:19:05 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skip) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:19:05 +0800 Subject: Racists Speak Up For Crypto Message-ID: <199608230353.UAA23980@netcom13.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:28:48 -0700 From: ezundel at cts.com (E. Z�ndel) Good Morning from the Zundelsite: I have a sweet friend in Santa Barbara, California who grew up with me in the rain forests of South America. Elvira and I share many things, including an "encryption language" of sorts. We used it with relish as teenagers when the Mennonite Elders were spying on us, trying to ferret out secrets. The key was really very simple, but our "government" just never managed to catch on. It used to drive them wild. Yet it was so ridiculously simple - ". . . repeat a vowel with a 'b'". Prebesibidebent Clibintobon? Kapish? Just practice it a bit - no one will understands it! It is hilarious. It gave us a tremendous edge on wickedness - mostly romantic wickedness but now and then legitimate revolt against authority peddling a dogma we didn't always like. This story often comes to mind as I peruse the arguments regarding censorship, particularly as I was reading a recent Phyllis Schlafly's essay on "Clinton Is Trying to be Big Brother": ". . . We hope the appropriate government agencies will soon solve the recent terrorist crimes and punish the criminals. But all Americans who care about civil liberties should vigorously resist President Clinton's attempt to use the terrorist attacks as an excuse to carry on his all-out war against the personal privacy of law-abiding Americans. Now the Clinton Administration is trying to make it illegal for individual Americans to have private conversations with one another. That's the real meaning of its effort to control encryption technology, and it's a direct assault on the First Amendment. It would be downright ridiculous to assert that the First Amendment guarantees our right to speak in public but not in private. It would be just as ridiculous to say that we have freedom to speak in words that the government can understand, but not in words the government can't decipher. Americans have the right to speak to one another in private, behind closed doors, and we should likewise have the right to speak to one another in code and to put our coded messages on computer in a process called encryption. Americans would not tolerate the government opening and reading the letters we send through the mails, and we should not tolerate the government opening and reading our encrypted, or coded, messages sent via computer. Yet, Attorney General Janet Reno, FBI Director Louis Freeh, and Vice President Al Gore are all demanding the authority to read our encrypted messages. In a speech to the Commonwealth Club of California, Reno bluntly stated her demand for "ensuring law enforcement access to encrypted data.'' Reno boasted that there is "a consensus'' that the government should create a system known as "Key Escrow'' (i.e., a supposedly "neutral third party''), to which all Americans should be forced to "entrust'' the keys to their encrypted messages, and to which the government would have access. On the contrary, there is no such consensus. Do you trust Janet Reno with access to your private messages? Do you trust the FBI to keep your files confidential? On July 12, Al Gore announced that the Administration will continue to push for the adoption of a massive public key infrastructure to give the government access to all encrypted communications. In a blatant bid for a police-state surveillance society, Gore warned about "the dangers of unregulated encryption technology." A neutral panel of the National Research Council was set up to make policy recommendations about encryption. The panel called on the government to abandon its efforts to restrict encryption. The NSC panel concluded that increased use of encryption would enhance our national security, not diminish it. Thirteen out of its 16 members had security clearances with access to secret information, and they saw no national security reason to justify the Clinton policy. The Clinton Administration bases its campaign to control private encryption on the alleged need to fight crime through wiretapping. However, the NSC panel concluded that the ability of the private sector to transfer confidential financial and other data over the information highway without interception is far more important. Encryption is a First Amendment issue, not a crime issue. If the Clinton Administration is allowed to control encryption, it would be the biggest expansion of federal power since the passage of the Income Tax Amendment in 1913 . . ." And come to think of it, still after all these years: the Elders had no business whatsoever spying on some teenagers. They made the laws, and they enforced the laws, and it was pretty much authoritarian business, but even as young teenagers we knew that what they did was Trespass! They had their reasons - but we had ours! It was called privacy. Nebeveber lebet aba foobool kibiss youbou obor aba kibiss foobool youbou! Advice to the wise in these perilous times. Ingrid Thought for the Day: "All the fun's in how you say a thing." (Robert Frost) From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 22 23:46:26 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:46:26 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608230440.VAA17008@mail.pacifier.com> At 02:26 PM 8/22/96 -0400, pjb at ny.ubs.com wrote: >perhaps we should all add a line to our sigs to the effect that we hope >he dies, and soon, natural causes, of course. Hmmm, what exactly does >'natural death' include? > -paul A friend of mine who's an occasional hunter, and I were watching one of those nature-shows, and as I recall they showed a deer escaping from some sort of predator. The show's voice-over said that with the coming winter, the deer escaped "and would die a natural death." My friend indignantly pointed out that in NATURE, getting eaten by a predator IS A NATURAL DEATH! In a sense, for example, being in an airplane crash is "a natural death," because gravity is entirely natural! Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From marc at mtjeff.com Fri Aug 23 00:20:41 1996 From: marc at mtjeff.com (Marc Barnett) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:20:41 +0800 Subject: Antiautomobile devices Message-ID: <199608230512.WAA06081@beowulf.got.net> This was recently posted to ba.motorcycle (WHY, I dunno), and since there has already been the topic regarding EMP disabling of cars.... From: keethie at iguanabbs.com (Keith P. Keber) Subject: Wussy EMP Devices... Date: 21 Aug 1996 14:27:14 GMT So, LEOs in the US of A will disable fleeing autos with electricity, eh? They ought to get a clue from those icons of enforcement in Finland. Finnish police agencies have been beta-testing a new device that fits on the front of their police cars. It's a harpoon. That's right, a harpoon. During a high-speed chase, the cops ram the sharpened, front-mounted device through the body, into the trunk of the car they are chasing. Barbs spring out, preventing dislodgement. The police car then uses its own brakes to bring both cars to a halt. The kicker is that the harpoon is really a giant hypodermic needle; tear gas can be injected through it into the vehicle ahead. (I can just hear some lawn order types now: "Whoa! Cool, man!") This story comes from the 8/20/96 broadcast of Public Radio International's program, "The World", which claimed the device was being demonstrated at some airport in Finland. They didn't say what would happen if the suspects decided to lock up their brakes just as the pursuing vehicle rammed them, but they *did* advise listeners to obey all speed limits while visiting the country....:-) ---------------- This is why I like my new bike... -- Marc I'M A FREAK, TOUCH ME marc at mtjeff.com A mind is a wonderful thing to taste From bart at netcom.com Fri Aug 23 01:11:52 1996 From: bart at netcom.com (Harry Bartholomew) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:11:52 +0800 Subject: 128 bit MS Internet Explorer Message-ID: <199608230442.VAA20423@netcom21.netcom.com> MS got their site, www.microsoft.com, straightened out. I was able to download with about the same form filling as required for Netscape 3.0. b From nobody at replay.com Fri Aug 23 01:36:01 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:36:01 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks the movie Message-ID: <199608230621.IAA23398@basement.replay.com> why stop at a video why not a musical.... "Cypherpunk The Musical" Broadway here we come... Featuring Songs: "PGP why is it so hard to break" "We write code" "Why were we called shitopunks?" From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Aug 23 02:03:18 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:03:18 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > But I agree that "no action" is pretty likely. "I hope you die" has been a > > time-honored insult at least since I was a kindergartner, and presumably > > for many decades prior to this. Hardly an active threat. > many years, die of old age. No, I hope he doesn't get elected. That's > what I hope. :^) Not that I'd want Dole either. :( > > How about you Tim, when are you running for prez? Heheheh! I think it's a good idea. Tim May for President, Jim Bell for Vice. That'll keep Tim in line... Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From vipul at pobox.com Fri Aug 23 03:48:42 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 18:48:42 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608230336.DAA00609@fountainhead.net> > Free (commercial)speech for you (perhaps at our expense), but no free > speech for us? This is peculiar. Nobody seems to mind ads in Newspapers, printed magazines, TV, and for that matter web sites. That is unwanted stuff too, but now someone is paying for it. Though one can argue it out, on many grounds : 1. If the guy has to pay for it, he'll do it in limits. 2. He must have selected the context carefully, so the ad is most prolly of some use to its audience 3. He'll tend to talk sense. - Vipul From qut at netcom.com Fri Aug 23 19:25:31 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skipp OBC) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "----- Message body suppressed -----" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608240225.TAA11856@netcom16.netcom.com> ! At 1:10 AM 8/21/96, llurch at stanford.edu (Rich Graves) wrote: ! > ----- Message body suppressed ----- ! > ! ! ! Sounds good to me. Keep it up. ! ! ! --Tim May ! ! ! -- ! [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency ! Act of 1996] ! And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why ! don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll ! just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said: ! "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck." ! So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure ! enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan ! really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant ! while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he ! came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your ! brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course ! God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular ! Translation, TCM, 1996] Your sigs are better looking than his body. From vipul at pobox.com Fri Aug 23 04:39:45 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:39:45 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608230341.DAA00616@fountainhead.net> > > On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > There are technological fixes which I would favor over attempts to ban > > unwanted messages. > > In the meantime, before these technological fixes are easily implemented, > what is the proper way to handle unwanted commercial mail? > > 1) delete immediately > > 2) reply with 'Fuck off, morons!' > > 3) as in 2) plus an attachment of some 1Mb file > > 4) as in 3) plus a CC to the postmaster of the sending site > > What if the spam says: 'Do only reply to this if you want > further contact with us' etc? > > Does anybody have good advice, including risks for retaliation > from the vendors/postmasters for such 're-spam'? Subscribe them to cypherpunks, lots of times (if that is possible) and don't tell em hot to get off :) Alternatively have a moderated "spam.die.die" mailing list and subscribe the culprit too this list. Generate lot of data (like Octal dumps of entire hard disks) and keep sending out mails to these guys on regular basis. - Vipul From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 23 05:03:14 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:03:14 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <199608230336.DAA00609@fountainhead.net> Message-ID: Vipul Ved Prakash writes: > > Free (commercial)speech for you (perhaps at our expense), but no free > > speech for us? > > This is peculiar. Nobody seems to mind ads in Newspapers, printed magazines, > web sites. That is unwanted stuff too, but now someone is paying for it. Thou > many grounds : > > 1. If the guy has to pay for it, he'll do it in limits. > 2. He must have selected the context carefully, so the ad is most prolly of > some use to its audience > 3. He'll tend to talk sense. The advertizers in printed & broadcast media exercise a great deal of control over the content. E.g., a magazine that gets revenues from tobacco ads isn't likely to run a story about tobacco companies trying to addict kids. That's why you see more anti-tobacco content in broadcast media (who can't run tobacco ads) than in printed media. (And there are cross-ownership restrictions.) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 23 06:21:55 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 21:21:55 +0800 Subject: Racists Speak Up For Crypto In-Reply-To: <199608230353.UAA23980@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-ID: Come on, Skippy, you know Ingrid doesn't like to be called "racist." But seriously, any time she forwards something from Declan that actually advances freedom, I think that's great. -rich From gary at systemics.com Fri Aug 23 07:05:15 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 22:05:15 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <321D9635.2C67412E@systemics.com> snow wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > > At 6:04 PM 8/21/96, Gary Howland wrote: > > >Often I'll ask a stupid question too ("Does your software work in > > >France?"). If more people did this, then they'd have to choose their > > >victims a bit more carefully in the future (assuming of course they're > > >trying to sell something). > > > > As I said in my last message, I don't even do this--I just bounce it back > > to them. > > I see no need to "ask questions" (such as "Does it work in France?") to, > > perhaps, "establish legitimacy." If they sent it to me, I can send it back. > > Simple. > > I think that the purpose of asking a question is to consume _more_ of their > time. If they read it, they have to decide if and how to respond. Cousme more > of their resources. It might even be interesting to write a script that automatically > inserts a silly question (like "does it work in france") and mails it back with the > single stroke of a key. Sure, I bounce it back to them too, by quoting the whole post - but like snow says, I try to consume their time by asking stupid questions. I feel it is important to show a little interest in their product or service in order that they can't tell the genuine replies from the anti-spam replies, which should (hopefully) mean they'll target their spam a little more carefully in future. Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From pjb at ny.ubs.com Fri Aug 23 07:13:14 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (pjb at ny.ubs.com) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 22:13:14 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608231151.HAA04754@sherry.ny.ubs.com> true, then there are those who are brain dead, and continue to participate, notice that i did not say serve, in public office for years. -paul > From zachb at netcom.com Thu Aug 22 19:18:40 1996 > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:18:23 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Z.B." > Subject: Re: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks > To: pjb at ny.ubs.com > Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > TEXT/PLAIN> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Content-Length: 487 > > On Thu, 22 Aug 1996 pjb at ny.ubs.com wrote: > > > perhaps we should all add a line to our sigs to the effect that we hope > > he dies, and soon, natural causes, of course. Hmmm, what exactly does > > 'natural death' include? > > > > -paul > > When I read this, a quote from a certain famous sci-fi writer came to mind: > "All forms of death are ultimately due to heart failure." > > > --- > > Zach Babayco > > zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 > > > From trei at process.com Fri Aug 23 08:57:26 1996 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 23:57:26 +0800 Subject: U.S. Army Private Faces Spying Charges Message-ID: <199608231317.GAA09793@toad.com> > > Thomas C. Allard wrote: > > > > His father said an Army major at Fort Bragg, whom he declined to name, > > had urged him to persuade his son to sign a confession, so prosecutors > > would not seek the death penalty. > > Isn't plea bargaining wonderful? > > Gary Iff this guy is guilty (and I have no particular reason to doubt it), I was still under the impression that treason carried the death penalty only in wartime. Peter Trei trei at process.com From perry at alpha.jpunix.com Fri Aug 23 09:50:41 1996 From: perry at alpha.jpunix.com (John A. Perry) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 00:50:41 +0800 Subject: Middleman has a new name! Message-ID: It has been brought to my attention that the name "middleman" is too long for the DOS-based remailer programs. In lieu of this I'm changing the listed name middleman at jpunix.com to middle at jpunix.com. The change will be effective for both the type-I and type-II remailers. I will also make this change to the type2.list/pubring.mix files shortly. The remailers will continue to also answer to middleman at jpunix.com. John Perry - perry at alpha.jpunix.com - PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry at jpunix.com is on the keyservers. From ptrei at ACM.ORG Fri Aug 23 10:21:51 1996 From: ptrei at ACM.ORG (Peter Trei) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 01:21:51 +0800 Subject: USPS Message-ID: <199608231401.HAA10139@toad.com> > At 5:14 PM 8/22/96, Bruce M. wrote: > > >Web Week, July 8, 1996, p3 > > > The Postal Service's attorneys have told the USPS that the tampering > >part of the current federal law would transfer to the electronic space, > >and that the mail fraud portion might also apply... > > > > "We're a trusted third party," Saunders said. "We don't have any > >interest in learning your trade secrets... Back in June I attended a presentation on this from Paul Raines, who is running the program. As I recall, there were three services they were planning to offer. 1. A time-stamping service. This is basically a remailer - you would send email to the USPS site, which would add a digital timestamp and signature, then forward the message to it's ultimate recipient. Customers wishing to use the service would deposit a sum of money with the USPS, which would be debited for each use of the service (suggested cost was on the order of 25 cents/message) 2. A CA service. Keys would be signed at various levels of assurance. At least at the start, business strength keys would be issued only at Postal Business centers, which are in about 100 cities in the US. 3. An archival service. For a fee, the USPS would store copies of all of the email you send though it's remailer. Only the sender could retrieve it, short of a court order. In answer to a direct question, Raines said that user-encrypted data was OK. Raines claimed the following advantages: * The contents would be subject to the postal fraud statutes. * People would trust a message received through the remailer more than one which was not. * IRS tax filings sent through the Postal system can arrive after April 15, provided they are postmarked before that time. Tax filings sent by other methods must be received at the IRS before midnight on the 15th. * Approximate quote: "When business negotiate a deal, they do it over the phone, in person, etc. But when the deal is closed, what do they do? They write a letter, and send it via registered mail through the USPS." * As a CA, the USPS was a known and trusted entity overseas, unlike commercial CA services. Some specific counter arguments: Fraud protection: If a person was intending to commit fraud, why would he or she send the message through the USPS remailer? Since the service is costly, most email will never be sent through it, and there will not develop a tendency to regard non-USPS email as untrustworthy. IRS filings: If I send a tax filing to the USPS remailer at 23:45 on April 15th, it gets a pre-midnight timestamp and is accepted by the IRS as being on time. If I send an email tax filing directly to the IRS at 23:45, it is also accepted (and if I was that desparate, I could also bounce the message through Hawaii, or US Samoa, and get several more hours of grace) Also, I was under the impression that the IRS now accepted FedEx timestamps for tax filings. Finally, the amount of business which this represents is miniscule. Closing deals: Ever hear of faxes or FedEx? My personal impression was that Raines had been listening to his own propaganda for too long, and was rather out of touch with the way things are done outside of the Beltway. I got the feeling that the USPS was desperately trying to find a role in a time where it was becoming merely the cheapest and slowest player in the package delivery business. Peter Trei ptrei at acm.org [Disclaimer: I am not representing my employer.] From root at HellSpawn Fri Aug 23 10:27:42 1996 From: root at HellSpawn (Damien Lucifer) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 01:27:42 +0800 Subject: ctcp.0.9 Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- This is a program i found on unimi that offers secure socket connections, utilitizing a simple server/client. It can be installed without root priveledges and uses d/h for key transfers. Anyone looked this package over, and if so what is your oppinion about it? Included below is the THEORY file that describes the key exchange: The encryption negotiation is performed using a protocol similar to FTP/SMTP/NNTP. The client sends commands to the server and the server returns a four-digit response code. Unless stated otherwise, all numbers in this document are hexadecimal with the most significant byte first. When a connection is initiated, the server should send a 2000 response indicating that it is ready to accept commands. Commands: DH3DES - Diffie-Hellman Key exchange followed by Triple-DES encryption If supported, 3001 is returned. The following commands are then expected: MOD - If an argument is supplied, it is the number, in hexadecimal, to use as the modulus. Responses: 2210 - okay 4031 - invalid number 4032 - too small 4033 - too large If no argument is given, the server should supply the modulus, sending 2211 followed by the modulus. If the server is unable to supply a modulus, 4034 should be returned. GEN - this should follow MOD. The generator to use. The format is the same as that of the MOD command. The response codes are 2210, 2211, 4031 or 4034 EXCH - Key exchange Client sends exch followed by gen raised to hir secret exponent. Server sends 4030 if a gen/mod has not been agreed upon. otherwise 2212 followed by gen raised to its exponent ENCR - Begin encrypted Session 4020 - No key selected for encryption 2300 - Encrypted session begin LPORT xxxx - this command takes a 16-bit hexadecimal port number argument, and connects to the specified TCP port on the local host. Responses: 2400 - connected 4010 - Unable to connect 4011 - Access denied RPORT xxxxxxxxxxxx - Connect to remote port The argument to this command is a 48-bit hexadecimal number representing the IP address and port number to connect to. The response should be first 2500, then when the connection has been attempted: 2400 - connected 4010 - Unable to connect 4011 - Access denied QUIT - quit Response: 2100 - Goodbye Summary of error codes: 1xxx - informational messages 10xx - server is supplying additional information that the client may ignore. 11xx - server is responding to a client's request for information 2xxx - okay 20xx - Server is ready 21xx - Disconnect, goodbye 22xx - Command okay 23xx - Encrypted session begins now 24xx - Session with another service begins now 25xx - Command ok, operation in progress, please wait 3xxx - ok so far, send the rest 4xxx - command was okay but could not be processed 5xxx - command not understood or not implemented Triple-DES The triple DES encryption uses output feedback exclusive-ored with a non-sequential counter. There are three counters, each of which is exclusive-ored with the data block before encryption with the corresponding key. The counters are incremented in each round by a shared, secret value which is part of the total key. The result of each round of encryption is exclusive-ored with the data stream. I0 ------ ----- | | | I1 ----- | ---A1------- | ---> \ | | \ | --XOR | --XOR | | | E1 | E1 | | | I2 ----- | ---A2------- | ---> \ | | \ | --XOR | --XOR | | | E2 | E2 | | | I3 ----- | ---A3------- | ---> \ | | \ | --XOR | --XOR | | | E3-------^ E3-------^ | | v v XOR with data stream I0 - Initialization Vector I1 - Initialization of counter 1 I2 - Initialization of counter 2 I3 - Initialization of counter 3 E1 - Encryption with Key 1 E2 - Encryption with Key 2 E3 - Encryption with Key 3 A1 - Add increment value 1 A2 - Add increment value 2 A3 - Add increment value 3 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh219rGlo8DEMb2JAQEzWgP/VpcWiL8+UN+7l7wCtUr6N5Bk4iqG5fYq Jb9ImvVA3h2k8cGz/ETBQW/3H9GA9jCsqzLrgcUewAa8CgdmhPoVE04e2scAxp4l y2peJlQmakCl2RCKHJZPTTaOLnsBU4NCZxwW8Q4xeUb0KBYfiW9XeULleyhhfsO2 n7XYpc4XhaY= =vGhK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 23 10:32:21 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 01:32:21 +0800 Subject: IE Security Flaw Message-ID: <199608231406.OAA29640@pipe2.t1.usa.pipeline.com> Markoff reports today on the MS IE security flaw discovered by the Princeton team and posted here recently. See: http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/financial/web-browser-flaw.html From Scottauge at aol.com Fri Aug 23 10:34:05 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 01:34:05 +0800 Subject: Lesson 2 in cracking (cryptoanalysis 001) Message-ID: <960823082541_185921635@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-08-21 20:43:50 EDT, you write: >The point is that if you took two novels by the same author and >completely sorted them alphabetically they'd be almost the same. The examples cited did this by word, not by message as your stating. >So a block of PGP encrypted ascii-armored (i.e. 8=>7-bit encoding) >wouldn't affect the frequency counts? Tell me, how long have you been on >your current medications? I was talking about the algorithm as given, not PGP. > That's the point!! IT'S A JOKE!!! You know, "hahaha - very funny"? Not a > serious proposal? I know! But at least it is relevent to the group! How many points of attack have you seen on here? How many techniques have shown up here? P.S. My apologies to the fella I called a troll. It was uncalled for - lacking in social skills. From combee at sso-austin.sps.mot.com Fri Aug 23 11:18:30 1996 From: combee at sso-austin.sps.mot.com (Ben Combee) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 02:18:30 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks the video In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960823023300.0071c9f0@reading.com> Message-ID: <9608231455.AA28948@sso-austin.sps.mot.com> * There was talk earlier about someone putting together a Cypherpunks video. * What ever came of that? I now have access to an Avid nonlinear digital * editor and would be interested in pursueing this. Hi, Steven. The Austin Cypherpunks are the ones working on this, although the effort level has been low lately. We were planning on leveraging Austin's excellent public access facilities to produce the video cheaply, but time constraints of the group's members got in the way. Right now, we're mostly dependent on good scripts. We have a few scenes down, but we need more material to finish the work. Editing will come, but we need the basic script and footage now. You can see some notes on this at my crypto page at http://www.yak.net/combee/crypto/ -- Ben Combee, Software Developer (Will write assembly code for food) Motorola > MIMS > MSPG > CTSD > Advanced ICs > Austin Design Center E-mail: combee at sso-austin.sps.mot.com Phone: (512) 891-7141 From mpd at netcom.com Fri Aug 23 11:36:39 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 02:36:39 +0800 Subject: U.S. Army Private Faces Spying Charges In-Reply-To: <199608231317.GAA09793@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608231556.IAA08825@netcom19.netcom.com> Peter Trei writes: > If this guy is guilty (and I have no particular reason to doubt it), > I was still under the impression that treason carried the death penalty > only in wartime. The death penalty for spying on the part of members of the military was part of the new and improved federal death penalty passed a number of years back. It added some 35 new federal death penalty offenses. I don't recall whether saying "Clinton sucks" was included amongst them. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From jims at MPGN.COM Fri Aug 23 11:55:11 1996 From: jims at MPGN.COM (James C. Sewell) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 02:55:11 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960823114947.006d7d7c@central.tansoft.com> At 03:35 AM 8/23/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > >This is peculiar. Nobody seems to mind ads in Newspapers, printed >magazines, TV, and for that matter web sites. That is unwanted stuff I'd suggest that most/all of us 'mind' ads in papers, tv, etc. The difference is that while we can do nothing about commercials on TV (short of breaking federal law and jamming the signal) we can do something about spam. If there is enough concensus we can develop/distribute/encourage the use of new mailers that will help defeat spam. For example: If mail comes into a server that has more than 25 recipients then it is only forwarded to those who have "signed up" for that sender. When we subscribe to Cypherpunks we also have to register that with our network of mail servers. Then if Mr. Spam sends stuff out it's not been "signed up" for so it gets trashed. I don't really like mail servers redirecting my mail, but perhaps we could arrive at a reasonable criteria for filtering if we tried real hard. Jim Jim Sewell - jims at tansoft.com Tantalus Incorporated - Key West, FL From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 23 13:13:32 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 04:13:32 +0800 Subject: Verdict in "MTV" Case Message-ID: Indiannapolis, IN (A.P.) -- A jury has awarded the State of Indiana $25 million in damages in the case of "Indiana v. Music Television." Music Television, also known as MTV, was accused of costing the state of Indiana more than $100 million in additional educational expenses due to students watching MTV when they should have been doing their homework. The jury foreman in the case was quoted as saying, "Like, like the kids are, like, goofin' off. Besides, MTV doesn't like play enough old stuff, like Zeppelin and Floyd." Following the various court decisions to award damages to states for medical costs associated with smoking by state residents, a barrage of similar lawsuits is happening across the country. School systems are suing book publishers, movie makers, television broadcasters, shopping malls, and miniature golf arcades. Makers of sports equipment are facing crippling lawsuits by insurers. The last remaining American bicycle maker, Trek, announced that it is withdrawing from the U.S. market, following the $37 million judgement against it in "Oregon v. Trek." --Klaus! von Future Prime From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 23 13:18:04 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 04:18:04 +0800 Subject: BOD_ies Message-ID: <199608231647.QAA17381@pipe3.t2.usa.pipeline.com> 8-23-96. FiTi: "The race is on for global groups to develop 'electronic purses' using smart cards." "We are moving into the electronic age where money will just be information about the wealth you have," says Visa. Some companies believe that parts of the body, rather than paper or coins, can be used to establish the amount of money somebody has available to spend. WaPo: "Group Plans Challenge To Net Address Monopoly." The end may be at hand for the virtual monopoly that Network Solutions holds over the registration of Internet addresses. The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, the Internet Society and IETF will organize a competition for the right to operate new registries. The group's aim is to create alternatives to the established categories of Internet addresses. NYP: "Flaw Said to Be Found in Microsoft's Browser." Markoff's report on the Princeton group's discovery. ----- http://jya.com/bodies.txt (17 kb for 3) BOD_ies From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 23 13:18:31 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 04:18:31 +0800 Subject: "Regulation of Commerce" and the Crypto Issue Message-ID: It seems to me that in recent years nearly any type of sweeping legislation is justifed, constitutionally, by the clause in the U.S. Constitution which says Congress shall have the power to regulate commerce. (More precisely, the clause says: "To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;" This is usually interpreted to mean _interstate_ commerce, and not sales/commerce/etc. that do not centrally involved more than one state....obviously nearly all things sold in one state are sold in other states, so there is lattitude for applying the commerce clause, albeit wrongly.) Today's news is the sweeping new restrictions on tobacco and cigarettes, including restriction on advertising and even on the placement of tobacco and cigarette logos and names on sports jerseys and shirts. (The much-publicized press event is not for another hour, as I write, so I don't know all the details. I'll be watching.) Note that similar restrictions on alchohol advertising were recently struck down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional infringements on free speech. Many expect the same outcome with these latest proposed restrictions. (The issue of advertisements of hard liquor, cigarettes, condoms, and other "unhealthful" [sic] products on television and radio is of course complicated by the role of the Federal Communications Commission and by "gentlemen's agreements" not to carry advertisements for some products.) Personally, I have never smoked, nor chewed, nor mainlined nicotine. Personally, I dislike cigarette smoke. But this is all _personally_. If a restaurant, bookstore, airline, bar, antique store, gym, or whatever wishes to allow smoking (or not), this is there choice. As many of us see things, it is not for the government to take a kind of "poll" of what people like and dislike and then to impose rules on property owners as to what smoking or nonsmoking policies they may set. Likewise, if I want to silk-screen a "Joe Camel" image, or a "Bud Frogs" image, on a t-shirt, this is between me and the putative owner of these images. Free speech and all. Or, to remove any confusion with the issue of owned logos, to silk-screen a fictitious cigarette brand on a shirt and then wear it, or sell it. It seems likely that individual wearers of such shirts will not be busted (think of how many already exist, and there is no plan for confiscating them), but that the burden will be placed, as it is so often conveniently placed, on the shirt makers. The catch-all for these laws seems to be the "regulate commerce" language in the Constitution. Cigarettes are sold in multiple states, the logic goes, so the commerce clause gives the government the power/authority to regulate it. (Well, Steven King novels are sold in all 50 states, too. Does this "regulate commerce" clause give the government the power/authority to regulate what King puts in his novels? Or to ban advertising for Steven King novels? Or to require that stores only sell such novels to adults?) This language is already being cited for some as a justification for regulating encryption (hey, some businesses use it!), digital signatures (ditto), and other forms of crypto. In fact, since nearly everything involves "commerce" in some way, whether interstate or not, the "regulate commerce" clause can presumably be used as a jusitification for interfering in all sorts of areas. The several legal experts out there on this list can clarify any errors of interpretation I have made. I certainly know that the commerce clause cannot be used to suppress certain kinds of speech, though the boundaries of where it may be applied seem unclear. I do expect it to be used for crypto, though, and this might even be upheld by the Supremes, especially in any areas directly involving "digital commerce." We should watch for this, and think about ways to deflect or derail such interpretations. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Fri Aug 23 13:18:50 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 04:18:50 +0800 Subject: The Future Of Cyber Terrorism Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960823171738.0073c5c4@206.33.128.129> The Future Of Cyber Terrorism The proceedings or a recent conference on the subject of Cyber Terrorism are now available online. The conference looked at terrorism carried out with the tools of today's information age and against the computer and information systems that the world increasingly depends upon. World Wide Web: http://www.acsp.uic.edu/OICJ/CONFS/terror02.htm _______________________ Regards, I hate quotations. -Ralph Waldo Emerson Joseph Reagle http://rpcp.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle at mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E From 76473.1732 at compuserve.com Fri Aug 23 13:50:13 1996 From: 76473.1732 at compuserve.com (JOHN E. HOLT) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 04:50:13 +0800 Subject: secret message Message-ID: <960823180037_76473.1732_BHT157-4@CompuServe.COM> Date: 01-Aug-96 14:50 EDT From: JOHN E. HOLT [76473,1732] Subj: puzzle ^%}{{ ZZ VVPAGMIGJEKMCCHIAKKPEHJDDDLOABGAMMJOCDFNOLNOKKKNIADPBGPPOEPIDCEMPGWW VVFCMOPKLKPJOHCNCJBDGOOJKFANCJJBDBMDIFIEKEDPLKDDGMPLHMIIPIJFMKOLENWW VVCAKJGJCKPAEOOMLJPNFJEKEINIHFKHNOLPCAHLEKHHLMHJFCOEKAFAGPHJBCPBHBWW VVOKLAENICAFDHEOEODMHMFGIONMAACAOHEOHDAJDNENGAHABNHGOCCPJNFDMAMKADWW VVMGDHKGPKBEIDBNLOCMLFMEIOKBFBFKJIMIIIFKJDFENCBPAPFBAOFMHEDODBFFPDWW VVOMFFJBNGEJPLGHJLFOBLFOGCBKAACEICLBIKHGILKCLMHPFIAHPDEOOODPPMLGDNWW VVGLDNEBDINMILDJDOJOJNKCLIBBKBCBEJPBJCFHGKMFLLEPGLGOOIIGAKJEGNPFHDWW VVIJBMFLALHPEHHGEGPCLGILBDBMEGMOGOIFBPPONGEDJPNFNMPCJFJPAEMIDOEMBLWW ZZ ZZ Distribution: To: ME > [76473,1732] From alano at teleport.com Fri Aug 23 14:03:18 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 05:03:18 +0800 Subject: (fwd) ANNOUNCE: Free Little PGP Credit Card App Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960823180311.00fbab94@mail.teleport.com> At 07:54 PM 8/22/96 -0400, Damaged Justice wrote: >>From: "David j. Sopuch" >Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.misc >Subject: ANNOUNCE: Free Little PGP Credit Card App >Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:00:24 -0400 >Organization: Datamax Research corp. >Lines: 10 >Message-ID: <321C8418.2647 at iwinpak.com> > >v2.08 of the iWinpak Internet Payment System is now available in >both freeware and shareware versions at http://www.iwinpak.com An interesting little piece of CGI code, but the demo leaves a bit to be desired. The demo is for bank checks. The order form has you sending your bank information (including bank number and check info) in the clear. So the hooks into your credit card are not sent in the clear, but the ones to your bank are... Double plus ungood. It is a start... How good of one, I am not certain though... --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From gary at systemics.com Fri Aug 23 14:05:23 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 05:05:23 +0800 Subject: ctcp.0.9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <321DF0AA.64880EEB@systemics.com> Damien Lucifer wrote: > > This is a program i found on unimi that offers secure socket connections, > utilitizing a simple server/client. It can be installed without root > priveledges and uses d/h for key transfers. Anyone looked this package > over, and if so what is your oppinion about it? > It doesn't appear to have any host authentication, so is susceptible to a man in the middle attack. Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From peter.allan at aeat.co.uk Fri Aug 23 14:11:12 1996 From: peter.allan at aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 05:11:12 +0800 Subject: strengthening remailer protocols Message-ID: <9608231805.AA01523@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk> This is long enough. I've been brutal and cut sections less likely to promote discussion. (I've also contacted OUP about Ganley's book, and may buy it if I can kid myself I don't need the money.) ============================================================ August 1996 Peter M Allan peter.allan at aeat.co.uk Strengthening Remailer Protocols STATUS OF THIS MEMO This memo proposes improvements for the Mixmaster protocol and requests discussion and further suggestions. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. INTRODUCTION Lance Cottrell's documents [1] and [2] describe the current Mixmaster protocol and attacks against it. This memo began as a response to those thoughts, but has developed in discussion with Cottrell. SPAMMING ATTACK [2] describes an active attack where many messages are sent to an honest remailer to separate a message of interest from other traffic. The aim is to clear other messages out of the message pool, wait for the target and finally eject that from the pool. The target message is identified because the attacker can recognise his own messages. Attempts to defeat this attack could well be based on preventing the attacker from recognising his own messages. That is the approach taken here. RE-ENCRYPTION AS A SPAM DEFENCE In this diagram remailer 'A' has received a message addressed to himself. Inside that is one to 'B' - unreadable to A. Further layers are hidden of course. AB????? decrypts to B????? This means that our remailer can only disguise the message by re-encrypting it on the outside. But the message has got to make some net progress toward delivery. The trick is that a remailer can find the outer two headers addressed to him and process both of them. Two headers processed and one rewound is net progress. When the header rewound is addressed to the same recipient as was next on the list anyway the diagram looks like this. Actions at 'A': AB????? decrypts to B????? B????? encrypts to BB????? Actions at 'B': BB????? decrypts to B????? decrypts to C???? encrypts to CC???? The beauty of this is that it is compatible with the existing protocol. If a remailer only knows about removing layers of encryption it still fits into a network where some can do both actions. Whether it sends or receives the message it still works. RE-ENCRYPTION IN THE MIXMASTER ROTATING QUEUE MODEL Instead of layers like an onion, Mixmaster has a queue of headers that get rotated. A used header goes to the back of the queue where it can never again be read. At some point the header at the front of the queue is found to be the last one, and the message is sent on its final hop. For a header queue the above actions look like this: Actions at 'A': AAAB??? -> AAB???a -> AB???aa -> BB???aa In general when the first H headers are addressed to the remailer reading them, (H-1) rotations will be performed, and the top header will be overwritten with another one with a random key and IV to encrypt the rest of the message. The number of headers present remains 20, however many or few of these are still to be read. No valid header block is ever overwritten, only used header blocks that are good for nothing. This is always possible because after a remailer receives a message at least the one header it has just read must be of no further use. This will hide the message content from eavesdroppers, but not from the next remailer in line - 'B'. Assume that remailer B is operated by an attacker, and that he directs spam messages there after host A (which is holding your message in the pool at the time of the attack). B can read all messages sent by the attacker (who knows B's private key). This is also why I think link encryption offers incomplete protection. RE-ENCRYPTION WITH CHEATERS Mixmaster assumes that no particular remailer in the network can be trusted and that the user does not know which remailers cheat. The message passes through a chain of remailers, who aim to hide information from each other so that the compromise of some of them will not disclose the original sender and final destination. Central to the spamming attack is the idea that the attacker can recognise the messages he is trying to trace. This is done by eliminating his own messages. The whole set - not just some of them. It can be arranged that the attacker does not obtain the whole set until it is too late to trace the target message (i.e. after a few hops, when it is likely to have met other legitimate traffic). The partial information the attacker obtains before all the spams are identified will be of some use, but following each of several leads with a new spam attack is unappealing as the number of suspect messages will just grow. The remailer needs the freedom to divert packets to another remailer. This is shown below; where remailer C was chosen at random. Actions at 'A': AAAB??? -> AAB???a -> AB???aa -> CB???aa Each remailer could have three options when sending a packet to its next host. 1) rotate all possible headers, and send the result (current protocol) 2) re-encrypt message with new 3DES key and IV. Do not divert. 3) re-encrypt message with new 3DES key and IV. Divert at random. Good probabilities for these options might be: 1) 20% P(1) = P(3) The number of headers the next host can read should not reveal whether a diversion has just been made. (We care about this because it discourages cheaters deliberately refusing to pass on your mail.) 2) 60% Other outgoing packets are not distinguishable from spams. 3) 20% Should not approach 100%. (To arrive is better than to travel in hope.) A spam attack as described in [2] would use many more packets than those in the message pool (N) on the host under attack. The number of spam packets diverted to honest remailers (a proportion R of the whole) would be about MANY . N . P(3) . R and those diverted twice in succession to honest remailers would be about MANY . N . P(3) . P(3) . R . R and I'd expect a figure above 5 here to thwart the spammer, because of the time taken to collect the 5 spams. This diversion (adding steps to the middle of a chain) seems different from a Middleman scheme [3] where extra hops are added at the end. This scheme does NOT allow a remailer to choose the rest of the chain to be followed. A dishonest remailer cannot bypass any remailer chosen by the original sender (in the hope of following the message to its destination) using only cooperating dishonest remailers) because the message has been encrypted in the public key of each remailer the sender chose before it entered the network. REFERENCES 1 Frequently Asked Questions about Mixmaster Remailers FAQ Version 1.8 July 4 1996 by Lance Cottrell 2 http://www.obscura.com/~loki/remailer/remailer-essay.html by Lance Cottrell 3 email "Re: middleman - what is it ?" "John A. Perry" From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 23 14:18:01 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 05:18:01 +0800 Subject: The Future Of Cyber Terrorism Message-ID: <199608231811.SAA21789@pipe3.t2.usa.pipeline.com> http://www.acsp.uic.edu/OICJ/CONFS/terror02.htm This quackery-puffery is truely hilarious. Worth reading for brave attempt to distinguish between our-adorable-intelligent-children qua hackers and terrifying next-door-neighbors so differently-abled-from-us cyber-terrorists. Unsubtly shaded white, off-white, black and blacknet movie-plotting. Thus Sprachen Zarathrustran Klaus: Commerce in ignorant-inner-fear-panderings regulation time. From chris230 at juno.com Fri Aug 23 14:42:16 1996 From: chris230 at juno.com (Chris J Samuelson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 05:42:16 +0800 Subject: Anonymous Remailers Message-ID: <19960823.145710.3030.2.chris230@juno.com> When you mail an item through more than one anonymous remailer, how does that make it anymore anonymous, or doesn't it? From paul at fairgate.com Fri Aug 23 16:04:12 1996 From: paul at fairgate.com (Paul Robichaux) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 07:04:12 +0800 Subject: FW: Cryptography Revisited Message-ID: <9608231522.aa16054@hq.ljl.COM.> Anybody want to give this guy The Business? Earlier attempts didn't seem to sink in. -Paul >Path: HiWAAY.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!btcarey >From: btcarey at primenet.com (Brent A. Carey) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.help >Subject: Cryptography Revisited >Date: 23 Aug 1996 01:15:01 -0700 >Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet >Lines: 67 >Message-ID: >X-Posted-By: @198.68.41.180 (btcarey) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit >X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0 > >I am posting again to hopefully clear up my last post on this topic. I >have received a dozen e-mail replies since I posted less than a day ago. >I believe I poorly represented my request earlier. > >I am retired professional with several years of training and experience in >intelligence analysis and cryptanalysis. The encryption scheme I >developed was employed for 3 years for passing sensitive data over >unsecure channels. Working for the government, the original program was >written for DOS and enjoyed the benefit of physical security. That is to >say, access to the encryption program itself was carefully restricted. > >Where I feel I was unclear is on the key to the scheme's security. Any >encryption scheme can be cracked provided the cryptanalyst has enough of a >sample to work with, enough time, and/or enough processing power. My >encryption scheme relies on data bursts of time-sensitive packets. Each >machine running the program has its own time and packet signature. The >unique signatures make it impossible (nothing is impossible) to decrypt a >complete file without access to both the sender's and receiver's >signatures. Even then it would take an enormous amount of processing >power to crack (more than big business can justify, but not much for major >governments). The only way to obtain a computer's signature (which is >easily changed on a regular basis), is to have physical access to the >computer's encryption application and support files. > >With the help of a more experienced DOS programmer, an application was >built that provided adequate protection that would increase the time >required to extract a computer's signature (even if one knew exactly how >to do it), that it was impractical to attempt. > >I am now porting the application to the Mac with the intent to sell it to >a private contractor that is developing RISC-based computers for >specialized use in the government. I have been assured that a PPC native >application will run on the computers, and was encouraged to develop the >application. Mostly what I need to know is how long it would take a >super-human cracker to obtain a signature and how she would do it. If I >can increase the expected time to 96+ hours, I'm in business (I always >assume half of my best guess - 48 hours is the required specification). > >I am developing the code with the help of an excellent Mac programmer. >The problem is, that neither of us can crack it at all, although we know >that is theoretically possible. He lacks sufficient crypto understanding, >and I lack sufficient computer knowledge. Working together we make little >progress, and truthfully don't have enough time to develop and crack at >the same time. I will not be comfortable with the final product until >someone cracks it and I have a sound understanding of the weaknesses that >I have not considered. > >Finally, MacPGP is a GREAT program. I didn't mean to belittle any of the >PGP programs. PGP carries much more protection than necessary for it's >intended and practical uses. Granted, it could use a new interface, but >it is certainly functional and not lacking in features. Initially, I >considered releasing a public version of my application in response to the >need for a more Mac-like encryption program. There is no reason for the >average Mac user to switch from PGP to my program. It lacks (and will >always lack) the features of MacPGP, and although it is more secure than >PGP the user must accept some increased inconvenience to realize the bulk >of the added security. For most users, this is adding overkill to >overkill. > >I extend my apologies for posting this huge message off topic, but I felt >I had grossly misrepresented my request. I feared the influx of e-mail >tomorrow morning if I didn't clarify. I appreciate all those that >extended advice. I will follow up on much of it, and I thank those who >replied. > > >Brent A. Carey -- Paul Robichaux LJL Enterprises, Inc. paul at ljl.com Be a cryptography user. Ask me how. From adam at homeport.org Fri Aug 23 17:00:41 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 08:00:41 +0800 Subject: Securing Internet mail at the MTA level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608232230.RAA12411@homeport.org> Elliot Lee wrote: | On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, C Matthew Curtin wrote: | > Two types of approaches are possible: | > 1. Adding to the SMTP protocol itself, allowing for MTAs to | > identify crypto-capable peers, and then performing | > authentication and session encryption where possible. like pgpsendmail? | > 2. Waiting for a cryptographic transport layer network protocol | > (such as what is being proposed in draft-ietf-tls-ssh-00), | > allowing SMTP to remain untouched, and only requiring MTAs to | > add support for the new network protocol. | > 2. Is there another approach that could work better? | > 3. Is there interest in adding SSH functionality to sendmail in | > the near future (either by the draft spec, or once the RFC has | > been published)? | | Have you looked at SSL? It allows different algorithms to be used, etc. | etc. (although the certificate & key distribution method uses x509, which | may be a pain...?). The SSLeay library is a freely available | implementation of SSLv2. The big problem with adding SSL or ssh to mail transport is that both assume that mail goes from host A to host B, with none in between. This is useful, but its more useful (IMHO) to integrate something that doesn't use online key exchange to ensure end to end security. Take for example, Alice sends mail to Dave via Brian and Charlie. A point to point protocol, while useful against Eve and Mallet, doesn't address the fact that Brian works for the NSA. While if Alice's sendmail encrypts the message to Dave, then Brian and Charlie are reduced to traffic analysis instead of reading the mail. The case of mail being carried by an intermediary is still pretty large. In any event, I don't see an advantage other than buzzwords to using SSL/SSH over PGP, while I do see advantages to pgp. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Fri Aug 23 17:03:40 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 08:03:40 +0800 Subject: phoneco vs X-phone Message-ID: <01I8MFWC2BFK9JDD4G@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Don't forget opportunity costs. With the money it spent to put in the fiber optics, the phone company could have made some loans and gotten interest back. -Allen From bkmarsh at feist.com Fri Aug 23 17:05:50 1996 From: bkmarsh at feist.com (Bruce M.) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 08:05:50 +0800 Subject: Intel to rule the basic crypto engine market? Message-ID: InfoWorld, August 19, 1996, p1 By Luc Hatlestad & Tom Quinlan ------------------------------ Looking to bring a standard infrastructure to hardware- and software-based encryption offerings, Intel Corp. has started developing a Common Data Security Architecture (CDSA) designed to integrate security software, operating systems, and third party applications. [...] ------------------------------ http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchives.pl?960816.encryption.htm ________________________________ [ Bruce M. - Feist Systems, Inc. ] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Official estimates show that more than 120 countries have or are developing [information warfare] capabilities." -GAO/AIMD-96-84 So, what is your excuse now? From rich at c2.org Fri Aug 23 18:21:42 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 09:21:42 +0800 Subject: The Future Of Cyber Terrorism In-Reply-To: <199608231811.SAA21789@pipe3.t2.usa.pipeline.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, John Young wrote: > http://www.acsp.uic.edu/OICJ/CONFS/terror02.htm > > This quackery-puffery is truely hilarious. Comes with the territory (excuse me, as they say, *CyberTerritory*). > Worth reading for brave attempt to distinguish between > our-adorable-intelligent-children qua hackers and terrifying > next-door-neighbors so differently-abled-from-us cyber-terrorists. Speak for yourself :-) > Unsubtly shaded white, off-white, black and blacknet movie-plotting. IOW, perfect for cypherpunks. :-) > Thus Sprachen Zarathrustran Klaus: Commerce in > ignorant-inner-fear-panderings regulation time. I was *almost* willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I saw the PO box and this: "Now is the time to take action. Unfortunately, due to this open nature of this document, specific counter-CyberTerrorism measures cannot be discussed. Those discussions must be reserved for secured facilities." From jwilk at iglou.com Fri Aug 23 19:58:41 1996 From: jwilk at iglou.com (Daemon) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 10:58:41 +0800 Subject: [off-topic] Re: Verdict in "MTV" Case Message-ID: At 10:15 AM 8/23/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: As the youngest Cypherpunk in the world (or at least i am aware of) I think a little reply is in order from my self. > "Like, like the kids are, like, >goofin' off. Besides, MTV doesn't like play enough old stuff, like Zeppelin >and Floyd." Thats what those old records are for. (no offense) If they are sueing MTV why not other TV stations.... If I was going to sue someone for not doing my homework i would sue Jarkko Oikarinen, the creator of IRC. I just think that this is really pathetic.... but then again I am famous for my flame replys in the past. Why not make the school pay MTV for keeping kids away from there station while they are doing homework (hehehe) FYI i thought this reply out. Blake Wehlage ========================================== Blake Wehlage ��� R�V�L����� B�+ ��mP@� � ��� Goto: http://members.iglou.com/jwilk From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Fri Aug 23 20:17:43 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:17:43 +0800 Subject: Some cypherpunks-relevant Risks articles Message-ID: <01I8MN2K25089JDD4G@mbcl.rutgers.edu> In regards to the first part (the 911 transcript), I was considering the idea (common in cyberpunk RPGs) of a privately-set-up ambulance and emergency room service, with monitors (possibly with action capabilities) on registered clients. You'd want the data flow from and to the monitors encrypted, of course. -Allen From: IN%"rre at weber.ucsd.edu" 20-AUG-1996 22:41:21.74 To: IN%"rre at weber.ucsd.edu" CC: Subj: Risks: Atlanta 911 transcript, SSN's, web plagiarism [If you've never seen the famous Olympic Park 911 transcript, it's worth reading closely. I'm embarrassed to say this, but it always reminds me of the time I couldn't get a taxi in Chicago because I could tell the dispatcher what intersection I was standing on but I could not see any of the street addresses anywhere around me, and her dispatch computer needed an address to dispatch a cab. Dispatch systems requiring addresses are one of those absolutely classic cases of system being driven by the database designer rather than by the people who know how the system will actually be used. Database designers are fine people, but they shouldn't be doing requirements analysis unless they're trained for it. Also in this issue of Risks is an interesting message from Robert Ellis Smith about managing social security numbers and other identifiers for privacy, and a funny/scary piece about web plagiarism.] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help at weber.ucsd.edu =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: risks at csl.sri.com RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest Monday 19 August 1996 Volume 18 : Issue 35 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 10:45:34 PDT From: "Peter G. Neumann" Subject: The Atlanta 911 transcript [The following transcript of the Olympic 911 bomb call and the ensuing conversation suggests that many of our nontechnological risks are not being adequately addressed. PGN] http://www.cnn.com/US/9608/09/olympics.bomb.911/911.transcript.wir/transcript.html Excerpts from a transcript released Thursday by the Atlanta Police Department regarding the bomb threat telephoned to 911 on July 27. Times have been converted from military time to standard notation, and punctuation and spelling have been edited. Parenthetical notes are part of the police transcript except where labeled as an editor's note. The transcript refers to these police terms: Code 73, bomb threat; and Zone 5, a police precinct near Centennial Olympic Park. The transcript did not explain the Zone 5 dispatcher's references to Code 17 and Code 8, which apparently were unrelated to the bomb call. 12:58:28 a.m.: [Call to 911] 12:58:32 a.m.: Atlanta Police Department 911 Operator: "Atlanta 911." Caller: "There is a bomb in Centennial Park, you have 30 minutes." 12:58:45 a.m.: Caller hangs up. 1:01:20 a.m.: 911 operator calls APD Agency Command Center (all lines busy). .... 1:01:30 a.m.: 911 operator calls Zone 5 and notifies Zone 5 of Signal 73 and requests address of Centennial Park -- unable to get street address. Dispatcher: "Zone 5." 911 Operator: "You know the address to Centennial Olympic Park?" Dispatcher: "Girl, don't ask me to lie to you." 911 Operator: "I tried to call ACC but ain't nobody answering the phone ... but I just got this man called talking about there's a bomb set to go off in 30 minutes in Centennial Park." Dispatcher: "Oh Lord, child. One minute, one minute. I copy Code 17. OK, all DUI units are Code 8 and will not be able to assist on the freeway. Oh Lord, child. Uh, OK, wait a minute, Centennial Park, you put it in and it won't go in?" 911 Operator: "No, unless I'm spelling Centennial wrong. How are we spelling Centennial?" Dispatcher: "C-E-N-T-E-N-N-I -- how do you spell Centennial?" 911 Operator: "I'm spelling it right, it ain't taking." Dispatcher: "Yeah." 911 Operator: "Centennial Park is not going. Maybe if I take 'park' out, maybe that will take. Let me try that." Dispatcher: "Wait a minute, that's the regular Olympic Stadium right?" 911 Operator: "Olympic Stadium is like Zone 3, though. Centennial Park." Dispatcher: "That's the Centennial Park?" 911 Operator: "It's near the Coca Cola Plaza, I think." Dispatcher: "In 5?" 911 Operator: "Uh huh." Dispatcher: "Uh, hold on. Sonya, you don't know the address to the Centennial Park?" 2nd Dispatcher (in background): "Downtown." 911 Operator: "Male, about 30." Dispatcher: "1546, Code 17, 23." 911 Operator: "White." Dispatcher: "Uh, you know what? Ask one of the supervisors." 911 Operator: "No, Lord help me, you know they don't know." Dispatcher: "I know, but it gets it off you." 911 Operator: "Alrighty then, bye." Dispatcher: "Bye." 1:02:40 a.m.: 911 operator calls APD ACC for address (telephone line problem; operators cannot hear each other.) ... 1:02:50 a.m.: 911 operator calls APD ACC again and requests address for Centennial Park and is given the telephone number. ACC: "Atlanta Police, Agency Command Center." 911 Operator: "Hey, can you hear me now?" ACC: "Uh huh." 911 Operator: "OK, can you give me the address of the Centennial Park?" ACC: "I ain't got no address to Centennial Park, what y'all think I am?" 911 Operator: "Can you help me find the address to Centennial Park?" ACC: "I can give you the telephone number of Centennial Park." 911 Operator: "I need to get this bomb threat over there to y'all." ACC: "Well." 911 Operator: "But I need the address of Centennial Park. It's not taking, the system is not taking Centennial Park, that's not where it came from, but you know the system is not taking Centennial Park, that's where he said the bomb was." ACC: "No particular street or what?" 911 Operator: "He just said there's a bomb set to go off in 30 minutes in Centennial Park." ACC: "Ooh, it's going to be gone off by the time we find the address." 911 Operator: "Are you kiddin'? Give me that, give me that." ACC: "I mean I don't have an address, I just have phone numbers." 911 Operator: "Give me the phone number." ... 1:05:10 a.m.: 911 operator calls Centennial Park for street address and is placed on hold. Receives address at 1:07:10 a.m. Centennial Park: "Centennial Park, this is Operator Morgan." 911 Operator: "Hi, can you give me the address to Centennial Park?" Cen Park: "The address?" 911 Operator: "Uh huh." Cen Park: "Uh, hold on a second." 1:06:30 a.m.: 911 operator notifies Communications Supervisor, Sgt. Montgomery. 911 Operator: "Does anybody -- Sgt. Montgomery, do you know the address of Centennial Park? Do you know the address to Centennial Park. Well, I need to get the address of Centennial Park 'cause, I mean I don't mean to upset nobody, but we got a bomb threat over there." (Editor's note: The transcript does not further indicate whether this comment about a bomb threat was directed only to Sgt. Montgomery in the 911 center or to Centennial Park's Operator Morgan, who is shown to come back on the line just after the comment.) Cen Park: "Ma'am." 911 Operator: "Yes." Cen Park: "OK, it's 145 International Boulevard." 911 Operator: "145 International Boulevard." Cen Park: "Uh huh." 911 Operator: "OK." Cen Park: "All right, uh huh." 911 Operator: "Thank you. Bye bye." 1:08:35 a.m.: 911 operator sent call to dispatch. 1:11:10 a.m.: Dispatcher: "1591. Radio raising 1594." Unit 1594: "1594. You call?" 1:11:20 a.m.: Dispatcher: "1594, that's affirmative, got a Signal 73 at 145 International Boulevard. It came from the pay phone at the Days Inn. The caller is advising that he has one set to go off in 30 minutes at Centennial Park. Sounded like a white male." (Editor's note: The same information is then given to Unit 1593 and the dispatcher calls Unit1546.) 1:12:30 a.m.: Dispatcher: "Did you copy?" 1:12:40 a.m.: Unit 1546: "1546. I copy. Advise the state police, they police that park. I'll go the Days Inn and see if I can locate the caller." Dispatcher: "OK, that's affirmative." (Editor's note: There are sporadic entries over the next seven minutes. Another officer, designated Unit 1593, also instructs the dispatcher at 1:18:50 a.m. to "contact the state police supervisor." The transcript contains no indication, however, that state police were notified.) 1:20:00 a.m.: Unit 2924: "2924 to Radio, be advised that something just blew up at Olympic Park." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 15:24 EST From: Robert Ellis Smith <0005101719 at mcimail.com> Subject: Alternatives to Social Security Numbers Last spring, I asked readers of RISKS for suggestions on alternatives to Social Security numbers in organizations with large data bases of information about individuals. Many such organizations find they do not need to use SSNs, and avoid privacy problems associated with using them. For a copy of all of the responses, send a request to us and specify whether you want hard copy or electronic edition of our August issue, and provide postal address or e-mail address. Robert Ellis Smith, Publisher, Privacy Journal newsletter, Providence, RI, 401/274-7861, e-mail 5101719 at mcimail.com. Excerpts from the suggestions follow: * FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.: Maryland uses Soundex (of name and birth date concatenated [linked in a chain]) both for driver and vehicle registrations. * FROM CAMBRIDGE, MASS.: "Against Universal Health-Care Identifiers" in the JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL INFORMATICS ASSOCIATION 1:316-319, 1994, by Dr. Peter Szolovits of MIT and Dr. Isaac Kohane of Children's Hospital in Boston, discusses a number of ways in which cryptography- based health care identifiers can be used to preserve privacy while remaining manageable for typical medical purposes. This is publication #49 (in Postscript format) at http://medg.lcs.mit.edu/people/psz/publications.html. * FROM YARDLEY, PA.: One way is to use a simple scheme like three letters from last name, the first initial, and some digits; another is just to use sequential numbers. Another is an MD5 hash of the full-name string [a one-way mathematical function as a stand-in for the name that makes translation back to the original name impossible]. This is always unique for a unique string, so you might need to add some numbers. * FROM MADISON, WISC.: When I was working on the development of the Wisconsin Student Data Handbook - we tried to develop what we called an "SSN surrogate," also of nine bytes per individual. It involved an algorithm which combined year, month, and date of birth with sex and two consonants each extracted from the first and middle names. * FROM CYBERSPACE: I worked with a banking software company that set up employee records simply by exact hire date and time. Since they never hired anyone at exactly the same time, it gave each person a unique number. You could do the same for any data base in which records are added gradually one at a time - just number them based on exact date and time added. * FROM PALO ALTO, CAL.: At Stanford University we made a decision long ago not to use SSN for identification except where required by law (payroll taxes, for example). We use a unique Stanford University ID (SUID), which is a lifetime number and applies to all students, alumni, faculty, staff, and patients. It serves all the same purposes that the SSN would do if it were used. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:03:42 +0200 From: "Roy Dictus, NET" Subject: The risk of plagiarism with Websites My company recently got ripped off by a competitor. We build Websites and thus had constructed a site detailing our products and services. A rival Website constructor (!) copied practically the entire site, changing the background color, changing our name into theirs, and making other slight changes like alignment, add and delete a word or phrase here and there... I complained about it, not only to them directly, but also on a local USENET newsgroup (we're both located in Belgium, so the newsgroup was be.providers). On the phone they just laughed at me and admitted to copying, but on USENET they claimed I had copied their site! There's nothing I can do to prove them wrong, even though we both know what happened. The risk: if you put your materials on the Internet, where they can be freely copied, make sure you have some way to prove you made them yourself, and when you did it. Roy Dictus, NET bvba, Internet Projects & Consulting roy at net.be http://www.net.be [Interdictus becomes Enter Dictus. PGN] ------------------------------ End of RISKS-FORUM Digest 18.35 ************************ From jya at pipeline.com Sat Aug 24 11:29:49 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CyberTerrorism Message-ID: <199608241141.LAA08906@pipe4.t2.usa.pipeline.com> On Aug 23, 1996 18:34:42, '"Institute for Security and Intelligence" ' wrote: >John: > >Your message regarding my comments on CyberTerrorism was forwarded to me. >Rather than waxing poetic beration, how about some actually useful >perspective? > >If you have experience in this area, let's talk. If you have something to >contribute, let's get it out where it can be useful. > >It's time to put up, or shut up John. > >Regards, >Barry C. Collin --------- Dear Mr. Collin, Thank you for writing. And for the cyber-terrorism hoot, which helps purge ignorant fears with insightful laughter. The best way I know for citizens to ease their induced- panic of terrorism in all forms -- gov, com, edu, org -- is to become more informed. And to be wary of "terrorist threats" in all their burgeoning guises -- "national security" being one of the most deceitful. To counter Nat Sec snake oil in the rising commerce in "cyber-terrorism" (a residue of the natsec oil tank) citizens should participate in the wit and wisdom of wide-open Internet mail-lists dealing with computer privacy and security. The best of these is the list Cypherpunks. (E-mail "info" to majordomo at toad.com.) Cypherpunks, far more tolerant and less treacherously commercially self-serving than all others, explores an amazing range of CompSec issues, technologies, policies, strategies and fantasies. Its archive of several years offers a historical treasure on the transformation of state control of comp tech to its service of the citizenry. This is exemplified by Cypherpunks primary focus, cryptography, and the diverse ways it has moved from narrow use to conceal privileged power to widespread application to protect individual privacy (especially those dissenting to heirarchical authority -- gov, com, edu, org). Your agent provocateurist comedy on cyber-terrorist inebriation could be enriched by hanging on Cypherpunks, say, your buffoonery for secret briefing. "If you knew what I knew" is a natsec-butt joke there, as it is becoming globally to liberated citizen-units bellowing "FA." Congrats on exposing TLA-dementia of cyber-terrorism and defanging its counter-agents by encouraging belly- laughing at the all-too-blatant hype-artistry. Only Jim Kallstrom does it better. Best regards, jya From edgar at Garg.Campbell.CA.US Sat Aug 24 11:30:11 1996 From: edgar at Garg.Campbell.CA.US (Edgar Swank) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SecureDrive News 8/24/96 Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- SecureDrive Users: It's been brought to my attention that users who attempt to compile SecureDrive 1.4b using Turbo C++ 3.00 are haveing a problem in that the MD5 routine does not produce a correct result, so that the key generated from a given passphrase will not be the same as the pre-compiled version. This is a bug in Turbo C++, not SecureDrive! However, a bypass for the problem is possible by modifying SD source as follows - ------------------------------cut here----------------------- *** C:\SECDR14B\UNC\MD5.C Sun May 09 19:38:36 1993 - --- MD5.C Wed Aug 14 00:58:46 1996 *************** *** 12,17 **** - --- 12,20 ---- * of the MD5 routines in RSAREF. Due to this alteration, this * code is "derived from the RSA Data Security, Inc. MD5 Message- * Digest Algorithm". (See below.) + * + * Simplified some expressions to avoid incorrect compiles with + * some compilers, e.g. Turbo C 3.0 EWS 8/96 */ /* *************** *** 135,145 **** - --- 138,158 ---- /* transform if necessary */ if (mdi == 0x40) { + #if defined (__TURBOC__) for (i = 0, ii = 0; i < 16; i++, ii += 4) + { + in[i] = (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+3]) << 24); + in[i] |= (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+2]) << 16); + in[i] |= (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+1]) << 8); + in[i] |= ((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii]); + } + #else + for (i = 0, ii = 0; i < 16; i++, ii += 4) in[i] = (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+3]) << 24) | (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+2]) << 16) | (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+1]) << 8) | ((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii]); + #endif Transform (mdContext->buf, in); mdi = 0; } *************** *** 167,178 **** padLen = (mdi < 56) ? (56 - mdi) : (120 - mdi); MD5Update (mdContext, PADDING, padLen); ! /* append length in bits and transform */ for (i = 0, ii = 0; i < 14; i++, ii += 4) in[i] = (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+3]) << 24) | (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+2]) << 16) | (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+1]) << 8) | ((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii]); Transform (mdContext->buf, in); /* store buffer in digest */ - --- 180,201 ---- padLen = (mdi < 56) ? (56 - mdi) : (120 - mdi); MD5Update (mdContext, PADDING, padLen); ! /* append length in bits and transform 1.4c*/ ! #if defined (__TURBOC__) ! for (i = 0, ii = 0; i < 14; i++, ii += 4) ! { ! in[i] = (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+3]) << 24); ! in[i] |= (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+2]) << 16); ! in[i] |= (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+1]) << 8); ! in[i] |= ((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii]); ! } ! #else for (i = 0, ii = 0; i < 14; i++, ii += 4) in[i] = (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+3]) << 24) | (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+2]) << 16) | (((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii+1]) << 8) | ((UINT4)mdContext->in[ii]); + #endif Transform (mdContext->buf, in); /* store buffer in digest */ - ------------------------------cut here----------------------- This code will be inserted into any future version of SecureDrive, but no new release is planned at this time. For those users of Win95 and SecureDrive who are concerned about loss of 32-bit disk access, I've recently learned that use of Secure Device ftp.demon.co.uk:/pub/ibmpc/secdev/secdev14.arj instead avoids this requirement. Although the Secure Device virtual drive is listed as in compatibility mode, the real drives are not so affected. And since the virtual drive is mapped to a dos file on one of the real drives, I believe you get 32-bit phyical drive access there as well, although access is still slowed by CPU time necessary to encrypt and decrypt. Edgar W. Swank Edgar W. Swank Edgar W. Swank Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCUAwUBMh7d4t4nNf3ah8DHAQHNdAP3RKd07B55fkW5CazT8mMaGUoTtjxSvUBv 3ykPvBhHvu7egb4EB1/XcBTM3K/6QeE8Dt10XJVX15Fd9nHY+XI0c0VB8Trlb/NB 0ymq+/SchedtUNmCgDeycbF104bfirpuXKy0OChDfpgMe0d/ifCXny6Co0BqIbRi fQyKtXzOxQ== =h1RT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- edgar at Garg.Campbell.CA.US (Edgar Swank) The Land of Garg BBS -- +1 408 378-5108 From whgiii at amaranth.com Sat Aug 24 11:31:22 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960823114947.006d7d7c@central.tansoft.com> Message-ID: <199608240907.EAA13180@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0b11.32.19960823114947.006d7d7c at central.tansoft.com>, on 08/23/96 at 11:49 AM, "James C. Sewell" said: >At 03:35 AM 8/23/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >> >>This is peculiar. Nobody seems to mind ads in Newspapers, printed >>magazines, TV, and for that matter web sites. That is unwanted stuff >I'd suggest that most/all of us 'mind' ads in papers, tv, etc. The >difference is that while we can do nothing about commercials on >TV (short of breaking federal law and jamming the signal) we can >do something about spam. If there is enough concensus we can >develop/distribute/encourage the use of new mailers that will help >defeat spam. > For example: If mail comes into a server that has more than 25 >recipients then it is only forwarded to those who have "signed up" >for that sender. When we subscribe to Cypherpunks we also have >to register that with our network of mail servers. Then if Mr. Spam >sends stuff out it's not been "signed up" for so it gets trashed. >I don't really like mail servers redirecting my mail, but perhaps we >could arrive at a reasonable criteria for filtering if we tried real hard. No I have to dissagree. Who I send mail to or whom I receive mail from is no-ones business. I for one have no intention of "signing up" or "regestering" with any mail server. I most certainally want to be the one to decide what mail I receive or do not receive, not someone elses idea of what I should receive. Sorry but I will not be made a sheep for the "protection" from spam. baah baah - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Program call to load Windows- "Here_piggy_piggy_piggy" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh7PDY9Co1n+aLhhAQGmnwP/fb6JTcVj3sP4WiqwDYgW5lzHEjNulgaZ kvLbSlWde598YnEiDVXKSWZ6kYe4C0MEaFmdVpDq6i/Kg97YOYkmvnblYlEF9J7o BZf7SEL9paNd2UE/DO2jO4VS2VMTfvYIeEM1TOjN2nWLhjC/zvY/WdoO+rBRQ/vk RIx1FwKPu64= =Gt8i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- MR/2 Tag->My best view from a Window was through OS/2. From whgiii at amaranth.com Sat Aug 24 11:31:22 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USPS In-Reply-To: <199608231401.HAA10139@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608240915.EAA13224@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199608231401.HAA10139 at toad.com>, on 08/23/96 at 10:01 AM, "Peter Trei" said: >Closing deals: Ever hear of faxes or FedEx? >My personal impression was that Raines had been listening to his >own propaganda for too long, and was rather out of touch with the >way things are done outside of the Beltway. I got the feeling that >the USPS was desperately trying to find a role in a time where it >was becoming merely the cheapest and slowest player in the >package delivery business. Ahhh... But you truly miss the buety of this system. Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you wright. Eventually they could get rid of all snail-mail. Put in place scaners with OCR, handwrighting reconition & voice dictation in local post offices for those without Inet access. The even BIGGER PICTURE: Eventually we will not have dial-up internet access the way it is today. Mater of fact we will not have phone systems the way we have today. Instead we will have 1 huge network, a SuperIneternet, inwhich all homes & business are connected. For those without computers in their homes will be small dumb terminals that will let them connect & provide basic services (such devices are being developed right now). In such a system anyone could be monitored, at any time. Sound far fetched? The technology is here now to do this. Just remember that the "powers to be" don't think in terms of months or years but decades. It may take 20-30yrs for such a system to be fully implimented. "They" are very patient. 1984? no, 2084 without a doubt! - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Windows: Just another pane in the glass. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh6EZI9Co1n+aLhhAQGh9QQAht8JS5rNOLyk3m8XlcXyjEFr5meerldB 9wDqhnaHJbgLmgC2NNcvAcYgGpAQfMRDHwzBXPX0PBCndXk87BfppFtnvexGOhgh gD/170jrgbGbH1CDAvOCxtv4Hp0kM6qk1yO2IJcfPjhPZqD/mPyeUwV/MEpw4blE iFUfY4Uvvsg= =pho2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- MR/2 Tag->Windows NT? New Technology? I don't think so... From whgiii at amaranth.com Sat Aug 24 11:31:30 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel to rule the basic crypto engine market? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608240916.EAA13229@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In , on 08/23/96 at 04:12 PM, "Bruce M." said: >InfoWorld, August 19, 1996, p1 >By Luc Hatlestad & Tom Quinlan >------------------------------ > Looking to bring a standard infrastructure to hardware- and >software-based encryption offerings, Intel Corp. has started developing a >Common Data Security Architecture (CDSA) designed to integrate security >software, operating systems, and third party applications. Hmmmm..... Intresting but..., In the era of ITAR, GAK, Key Escrows,Clipper,& FileGate do we really want to put all our eggs in one basket? And that basket being based on hardware? IMHO I don't see Intell standing up to the government any more than Netscape, Mircosoft, IBM, or Lotus has. I have serious doubts that our "beloved" goverment will alow any standard to be adopted that does not allow them access whenever they please. I personally do not run any security code on my machines that I do not have the source for & have instpected. No source=No trust. >[...] >------------------------------ >http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchives.pl?960816.encryption.htm > > ________________________________ > [ Bruce M. - Feist Systems, Inc. ] > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > "Official estimates show that more than 120 countries have or are > developing [information warfare] capabilities." -GAO/AIMD-96-84 > So, what is your excuse now? Including NSA, CIA, SS, FBI, Justice Department, .... I am more concern of the activities of our own government against its own citicens than any foreign government. Who is watching the watchers and what is YOUR execuse? - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Have you crashed your Windows today? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh5+d49Co1n+aLhhAQFP+QP/au8Ov58AFTNRzLI+Sxz8Mjf9G1ZKCVvV EeoxWqKTdl0Sum5ygHEEc9oibK8vBllEP5pONyhhi/8hQGd5T82AQQAzbxZLcLK+ If8Em2wjnZz1aRiC8La2myXXvpdzzzDIE7UQ5WcjZ8BB06h3qhVSA8hveNsFhaAC jW9OMDN2ky8= =boLv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- MR/2 Tag->The sad thing about Windows bashing is it's all true. From whgiii at amaranth.com Sat Aug 24 11:31:33 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Regulation of Commerce" and the Crypto Issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608240915.EAA13219@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In , on 08/23/96 at 02:51 AM, tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) said: >In fact, since nearly everything involves "commerce" in some way, whether >interstate or not, the "regulate commerce" clause can presumably be used as >a jusitification for interfering in all sorts of areas. >The several legal experts out there on this list can clarify any errors of >interpretation I have made. I certainly know that the commerce clause >cannot be used to suppress certain kinds of speech, though the boundaries >of where it may be applied seem unclear. >I do expect it to be used for crypto, though, and this might even be upheld >by the Supremes, especially in any areas directly involving "digital >commerce." >We should watch for this, and think about ways to deflect or derail such >interpretations. This clause has been one of the "weak links" of the Constitution used by our government to regulate business in the 20th century. Rosevelt used it as justification for many of his unconstitutional projects in the 30's. Nixion used it for his "price freezes" in the 70's. This clause had good purposes when it was put into the Constitution. What it was for was the following: -Give the government the power to establish tariffs & regulate trade with foriegn governmnets.(this had previously been handled by the individual states) -Prevent the states from imposing tariffs on products coming into or leaving their state or otherwise hamper commerice between the states. This clause was never intended to give the federal government unlimited power to "regulate commerce" inside of the country. Remember that our founding fathers were fearfull of a powerfull centralized govewrnment. They established checks and balances, and only gave the federal goverment the minimum amount of power needed to keep the country together. All other powers were to be regulated to the states and the people. We have no-one to blame but ourselfs. Our founding fathers new that we needed an inteligent, well informed, population for a democracy to survive. Unfortunatly we have truned into a country of sheep who beleive everything the "boob tube" tells them. At the drop of a hat they are willing to give up hard earned fredoms paid for with the blood of our ancestors for small promises of security. I remember the oath I took years ago when I joined the Marine Corps: "To Defend the Constitution from ALL threats foreign AND DOMESTIC" - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->It's OS/2, Jim, but not OS/2 as we know it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh6KsI9Co1n+aLhhAQEO4QP8CQA84feezlGHB6XMui6Pj8fVzkmnYat/ jnYHGT7nEpCpTZRXE40NMbMyv7rDTeQtolvxc9pdKf1bT+Vew5ulRhqyoQNiLnSW P2MQJOFm2HNstGwNFg3+lZ5oTUwGjDJhiloL/PP69bRCKVTtWCb9FX1PPyZKMwAN vI+GiF7YLI8= =pUAI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- MR/2 Tag->If at first you don't succeed, work for Microsoft. From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 23 20:52:41 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:52:41 +0800 Subject: "----- Message body suppressed -----" Message-ID: At 1:10 AM 8/21/96, Skip wrote: > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > Sounds good to me. Keep it up. --Tim May -- [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency Act of 1996] And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said: "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck." So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular Translation, TCM, 1996] From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 23 20:59:43 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:59:43 +0800 Subject: Anonymous Remailers Message-ID: At 7:52 PM 8/23/96, Chris J Samuelson wrote: >When you mail an item through more than one anonymous remailer, how does >that make it anymore anonymous, or doesn't it? When only a single remailer is used, the remailer can see the mapping between the sender and the receiver. When two remailers are used, the first remailer can see the sender, but not the final recipient. The second remailer can see the final recipient, but not the original sender. Of course, the two remailers can get together and "collude," thus deducing the mapping between sender and recipient. With N remailers, the likelihood of collusion amongst the N remailers is less likely, possibly extremely unlikely. This is the core theory of mixes, or remailers. (And of course one can include one's self as a remailer, to further increase one's confidence that collusion has not occurred.) --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 23 21:04:03 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:04:03 +0800 Subject: FW: Cryptography Revisited Message-ID: At 8:21 PM 8/23/96, Paul Robichaux wrote: >Anybody want to give this guy The Business? Earlier attempts didn't seem >to sink in. >>From: btcarey at primenet.com (Brent A. Carey) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.help >>Subject: Cryptography Revisited >>Date: 23 Aug 1996 01:15:01 -0700 .... >>I am now porting the application to the Mac with the intent to sell it to >>a private contractor that is developing RISC-based computers for >>specialized use in the government. I have been assured that a PPC native I think it better that we not discourage him. If he can sell his "Snake Oil Cypher System" to the government, this will be a Good Thing. It will slow them down, lull them into false security, and distract them as they are cleaning up the mess. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From declan at eff.org Fri Aug 23 21:37:30 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:37:30 +0800 Subject: Any CPs in D.C.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of us DC-area cypherpunks are planning to get together with Lucky this Saturday afternoon. Interested? Send me mail... -Declan > Black Unicorn writes: > > Are you in D.C. now? > > > > Perhaps a drink would be in order? // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From alano at teleport.com Fri Aug 23 22:05:40 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 13:05:40 +0800 Subject: "----- Message body suppressed -----" Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960823191752.00bae67c@mail.teleport.com> At 06:25 PM 8/23/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 1:10 AM 8/21/96, Skip wrote: >> ----- Message body suppressed ----- >> > > >Sounds good to me. Keep it up. It looks like an internal mailing list version of Cypherpunks at Netscape is feeding back into the regular list with weird results. --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com "| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From rah at shipwright.com Fri Aug 23 23:54:26 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:54:26 +0800 Subject: Electronic Money Conference Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:44 EDT From: Somebody Subject: Electronic Money Conference To: rah at shipwright.com http://www.occ.treas.gov/emoney.htm How to Register . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . Speakers' Photos Toward Electronic Money & Banking: The Role of Government A Conference Sponsored by the United States Department of the Treasury A Conference Sponsored by the United States Department of the Treasury A Conference Sponsored by the United States Department of the Treasury [Image] [Image] Sheraton Washington Hotel Washington, DC September 19-20, 1996 Thursday, September 19, 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7:00 a.m. - Registration and Continental Breakfast ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8:15 a.m. - Opening Address KEYNOTE ADDRESS The Honorable Robert E. Rubin, Secretary of the Treasury ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9:45 a.m. - Panel Session International Cooperation A discussion of the major issues facing the international financial regulatory and law enforcement communities as electronic money systems and banking on the Internet become a reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10:45 a.m. - Address SPEAKER ADDRESS The Honorable Robert Pitofsky, Chairman, Federal Trade Commission ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11:15 a.m. - Panel Session Consumer Issues An exploration of the impact of emerging electronic money and banking technologies on consumers, including consumer disclosure requirements, assignment of liability, and challenges and opportunities for consumer access and acceptance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12:30 p.m. -Luncheon LUNCHEON ADDRESS The Honorable John Reed, Chairman and CEO, Citicorp ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2:15 p.m. - Panel Session Security and Authentication A discussion of industry's interest in the commercial use of strong cryptographic techniques and the government's national security concerns, and a look at the role industry and government standards play in the implementation of encryption and authentication technologies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4:00 p.m. - Concurrent Panels Payment System Issues A discussion of domestic and international payment system issues raised by electronic money and banking systems, including consideration of new and future operational, settlement, and systemic risks. E-Money Systems: Case Studies A look at actual experiences with operational E-money systems and pilot tests in Europe and the United States, impediments to consumer and merchant acceptance, and perspectives on the role of government. Privacy Issues An examination of consumer privacy issues raised by the use of personal information generated by electronic commercial and banking transactions, and a look at industry and government responses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6:00 p.m. - Reception ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7:00 p.m. - Dinner DINNER ADDRESS The Honorable Alan Greenspan, Chairman, Federal Reserve Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Friday, September 20, 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7:30 a.m. - Continental Breakfast ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8:30 a.m. - Opening Address KEYNOTE ADDRESS The Honorable Michael N. Castle, Chairman Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy House Committee on Banking and Financial Services ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9:00 a.m. - Panel Session Law Enforcement Perspectives A look at law enforcement issues raised by the emerging technologies, including the effectiveness of the current regulatory scheme, traditional investigative techniques and analysis, and international jurisdictional responsibilities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10:45 a.m. - Panel Session Electronic Money: Perspectives on Issuers A discussion of the institutional, financial, and operational criteria for successful issuers, including an exploration of the roles government and market forces play in establishing minimum requirements. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12:00 p.m. - Luncheon LUNCHEON ADDRESS Eugene A. Ludwig, Comptroller of the Currency ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2:00 p.m. - Conference Closes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Questions: E-mail Fax: E-Money Conference 202-874-5436 --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From stend at grendel.austin.texas.net Sat Aug 24 15:56:16 1996 From: stend at grendel.austin.texas.net (Firebeard) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608242252.RAA05122@grendel.austin.texas.net> >>>>> Vipul Ved Prakash writes: >> Free (commercial)speech for you (perhaps at our expense), but no >> free speech for us? VVP> This is peculiar. Nobody seems to mind ads in Newspapers, printed VVP> magazines, TV, and for that matter web sites. That is unwanted VVP> stuff too, but now someone is paying for it. In the first three cases, the advertising subsidises the cost of the media - ever notice that the advertiser-free[1] channels are more expensive? In the last case, I decide to request the advertising, increasing my time on-line, potentially increasing my cost of access. In the case of email spam, the advertiser decides to force me to receive the advertising, increasing my time on-line, potentially increasing my cost of access. -- #include /* Sten Drescher */ ObCDABait: For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. [Eze 23:20] Unsolicited solicitations will be proofread for a US$500/KB fee. From 81764205 at cshore.com Sat Aug 24 16:17:33 1996 From: 81764205 at cshore.com (81764205 at cshore.com) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 16:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remailer Message-ID: <321F0ED6.F8C@cshore.com> Help!!!! I need a good Anonymous remailer, can somebody send me a program that does just that. Thanks From richieb at teleport.com Sat Aug 24 01:30:46 1996 From: richieb at teleport.com (Rich Burroughs) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 16:30:46 +0800 Subject: FWD: Julf Forced to Reval Names Message-ID: <321e6466.389454@mail.teleport.com> The article below was posted to the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology. I cannot as of yet verify the contents. Rich >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Today on 22nd of August the local court of first instance in Helsinki decided that Johan Helsingius has to reveal the email adress asked for by the Police Department of Helsinki. This has to be done within 30 days when summoned for interrogation. Since this is merely a part of a case, this decision can't be appealed. If Helsingius still refuses to reveal the info he will be repeatedly fined and ultimately jailed for up to six months. The decisions about fines and jail can be appealed, but an appeal won't stay the execution of the ordered fine/jail, only a judgement of the appeals court will. The questions about different appeals in this case are somewhat complex and regarding the possibility to appeal it was a split decision (4-1). The court ruled against Helsingius in this matter. During the hearing Helsingius argued against this view in many ways: he objected on constitutional grounds and on grounds relating to statutes regarding criminal investigation. This information is based mainly on message <4vi0tt$geq at idefix.eunet.fi> in the local Finnish newsgroup sfnet.keskustelu.laki, by Kaj Malmberg, the police officer in charge of the investigation of the matter where Scientology scriptures were posted through anon.penet.fi. More reports from this case will probably follow soon. [posted & mailed to a few individuals] ========================================================================== pjs at uwasa.fi, Student of Theology & Law Student at the U of Helsinki Disclaimer: Speaking for myself only. Always using PGP to sign articles. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.i iQCVAgUBMhymBB1yhFX7KT+RAQHWEgQAw45nMBmJGKl1KXS/WkHL2rC4nGsZ8D97 AssSzKoMbB0Bw7M0tzZub9RzQY4Z9hVRXDxkvyxVoZtL1vZ7DqnIq8Xv/icy81Z5 g2BDy+r7fGqaEewKW3xuoKXSt1EuE765uRiweNqHpNIxBBDQGeEy+9qy/rs1KcwW dioGxAsAyHo= =TihY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________________ Rich Burroughs richieb at teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~richieb See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state New EF zine "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause From lzirko at c2.net Sat Aug 24 17:06:36 1996 From: lzirko at c2.net (Lou Zirko) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 17:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages Message-ID: <199608250005.RAA10538@infinity.c2.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: alano at teleport.com, zachb at netcom.com, rich at c2.org, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sat Aug 24 20:05:46 1996 I have seen delivery receipts for messages use a similar format and since these are duplicates of full messages received earlier there is a probability that sendmail is misconfigured on littlefoot ( or whatever the box at mcom is ). Lou Zirko > At 10:36 PM 8/23/96 -0700, Z.B. wrote: > >On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > > > >> At 10:54 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > >> > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > >> > > >> >--SAA08114.840765294/tera.mcom.com-- > >> > >> This is bizzare. I have gotten three messages with this message. > >> > >> Is someone at Netscape canceling messages? (mcom.com is the old > domain name > >> of Netscape.) > >> > >> Anyone have any ideas on this? > > > >I don't have a clue what it is, but it's sure pissing me off. I've > >gotten about 15 or so of these messages in the past two hours. If it's > >an honest error, then someone better fix it real fast; if some loser is > >jerking us around, ...... > > Some list redirector of somesort has gone wonky at Netscape. (Take a > look > at the headers if you do not believe me. They are originating off of > some > internal lists at mcom.com, the original Netscape domain.) > > Cypherpunks is not the only list effected by this. I am getting these > weird > messages on wwwsecurity as well. > > Since it is Friday, I expect that this will be with us until someone > gets in > the office on Monday. > --- > | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com > "| > |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: > | > | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man > | > |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the > keyboard.| > | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com > | > > > Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko at c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMh+m98tPRTNbb5z9AQFtaQf/d1cfjPtP/ShlLBq1FiMmw28A2PaRpTmP WOecpRisL6zouGYGGLzlUQk1oSMB2bz82Zk+K6LWAQj1b4jIuT6++UI0RXSwPE72 5+c1S3IIUzZNNTbZnVlKoGky06JV8xZWsbPwnDSuqJ/i5QHs7U8DUi1KrKztxYv+ i1raWmAK6Ib9q9YJ1Ub6591FEpROkfUHtbuPZ7EvvvVOwaEVNlxGOqQt6DHPeGb4 UAApKB5sbj1mGuThj3ijVoulwnaKaxvo3Ke3iN9+F8C+uNQmGwZnyVxmlrDz9Fjn pjfrpOd2oGUZ1pPkDgd5tEg2vJX0aNREj544szHJD3caqCmt0S6adw== =WAdH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From snow at smoke.suba.com Sat Aug 24 18:21:37 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 18:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Mike Howell wrote: > Does anybody know what I can get for generating the credit card numbers? 3 to 5 if you get caught using them for the wrong thing. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From alano at teleport.com Sat Aug 24 03:52:47 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 18:52:47 +0800 Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960823190618.00ba29dc@mail.teleport.com> At 10:54 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > >--SAA08114.840765294/tera.mcom.com-- This is bizzare. I have gotten three messages with this message. Is someone at Netscape canceling messages? (mcom.com is the old domain name of Netscape.) Anyone have any ideas on this? --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From 72124.3234 at compuserve.com Sat Aug 24 04:36:58 1996 From: 72124.3234 at compuserve.com (Kent Briggs) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 19:36:58 +0800 Subject: Announce: Puffer 2.0 for Win 95 Message-ID: <199608240217.WAA09419@spirit.hks.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I have released a 32-bit version of Puffer 2.0 for Windows 95 and NT systems. It has the same features as the 16-bit version except it now supports long file names. The exportable shareware version is available from my web site at: http://execpc.com/~kbriggs An upgrade patch for registered users is also available there. A brief description of Puffer is provided below. Kent Briggs =========================================================================== Puffer is a general purpose encryption tool for Windows that protects your personal and business data as well as your e-mail correspondence. Use Puffer to securely exchange data over insecure channels. Puffer uses state-of-the-art encryption algorithms for maximum security. The shareware version has been approved for export from the U.S. by the State Department through a commodity jurisdiction determination. Features: * 40-bit PC1 (RC4 clone) stream cipher * 160-bit Blowfish block cipher (U.S./Canada registered version) * Secure, multi-pass file wiping * LZ77 compression * Binary and ASCII archives * Self-extracting executables * Built-in editor * Available in 16-bit and 32-bit editions =========================================================================== - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBMh5mTCoZzwIn1bdtAQHEPAF/Qk62u4AF0n6lAYoTBzA7/R4yGtTaDfrT 1RK5QxMgjfWjmhq0coI2eVaI2Nm3si8Q =rjn9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ichudov at algebra.com Sat Aug 24 19:50:43 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 19:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Degaussing a pile of 5.25" media In-Reply-To: <0ig7sD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Message-ID: <199608250248.VAA24644@manifold.algebra.com> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > I have 3 bags full of 5.25" diskettes (in NYC). Can someone please let me use > their degausser before I get rid of them? (Anyone who wants them after they're > degaussed is welcome to them :-) > I can degauss your diskettes, for free. - Igor. From ichudov at algebra.com Sat Aug 24 20:22:27 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 20:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Encrypted tape archive solution? Message-ID: <199608250320.WAA24760@manifold.algebra.com> Hi, I have a linux system and create tape archives every night. Most sensitive data files are encrypted, but I want the whole tape archive to be encrypted just for the peace of mind. Is there any simple solution for linux 2.0 that allows to create encrypted archives? Another question: suppose I use Matt Blase's CFS. Is it safe to backup the _encrypted_ files, and not the mounted directory that looks decrypted? (i.e., not the "attached" filesystem). Thanks, - Igor. From rwright at adnetsol.com Sat Aug 24 06:48:29 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 21:48:29 +0800 Subject: Suppressed Messages Message-ID: <199608240251.TAA03475@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> What could be more fun on a Friday Night? I think it's a great trick, however some may find it more than annoying. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From mcortes at earthlink.net Sat Aug 24 22:05:01 1996 From: mcortes at earthlink.net (Michael Cortes) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: please take me of this list Message-ID: <321FB791.1CAB@earthlink.net> PLEASE, PLEASE get me off this cypherpunk mailing list. my brother signed me up (on my account) as some idea of a joke...but it is flooding my email....if someone would take the time to take me off, i would be ever so greatful *sarah* From vince at offshore.com.ai Sat Aug 24 22:20:59 1996 From: vince at offshore.com.ai (Vincent Cate) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA Message-ID: Dole says he would fix the ITAR problem, but try to keep something like CDA. Clinton is keeping ITAR and signed CDA. But not having the religious right he might soften on CDA. The courts seem to be throwing out CDA much faster than ITAR (some fast track to the supreme court built into the law). It also seems like ITAR is the more important thing to fix (it is easier to move pornography etc out of the US than major software companies). So it seems Dole is the better vote. Is this important enough to many cypherpunks to actually determine their vote? -- Vince ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ From Adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 24 22:50:40 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting Message-ID: <19960825055044046.AAA85@IO-ONLINE.COM> The body-suppressed problem seems to be continuing. I'm getting almost no normal list traffic. Does anyone think that someone might be trying to halt the list? / If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. / Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp / Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" / Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 / Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From rwright at adnetsol.com Sat Aug 24 23:29:38 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 23:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fishy stuff Message-ID: <199608250629.XAA29349@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> I just read a supressed message from me about a topic I never wrote about. This IS PISSING me off. Ross =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From DMiskell at envirolink.org Sat Aug 24 23:30:09 1996 From: DMiskell at envirolink.org (Daniel Miskell) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 23:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages Message-ID: <199608250622.CAA18195@envirolink.org> Vipul Ved Prakash writes: >> >> I don't have a clue what it is, but it's sure pissing me off. I've >> gotten about 15 or so of these messages in the past two hours. If it's >> an honest error, then someone better fix it real fast; if some loser is >> jerking us around, ...... >> > >Is this all becuz of those bad nameserver records floating around the net? >Tons of ISP's have gone down! > I hope that's all this is. Because 90% of the notes I am getting, at BEST, contain supressed message bodies. This is really starting to frighten me. Daniel. From zachb at netcom.com Sat Aug 24 11:21:32 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 02:21:32 +0800 Subject: Wtf????? In-Reply-To: <199608230341.DAA00616@fountainhead.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > > --CAA28180.840792057/tera.mcom.com-- > > What's with all these messages like this??? Who's doing this and WHY??? --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Sat Aug 24 11:40:08 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 02:40:08 +0800 Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960823190618.00ba29dc@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: After Klemensrud settled the Scientology suit, they were emboldened to show the flag at Netscape. It is no coincidence that Tom Cruise used Netscape in Mission: Impossible. Be afraid. Be very afraid. (It's also possible that there's a mail routing flap at Netscape, but I would not discount the Scientology angle. Every conspiracy theory contains a grain of truth, after all.) -rich On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > At 10:54 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > > > >--SAA08114.840765294/tera.mcom.com-- > > This is bizzare. I have gotten three messages with this message. > > Is someone at Netscape canceling messages? (mcom.com is the old domain name > of Netscape.) > > Anyone have any ideas on this? > --- > Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction > `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key > http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ > "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon > "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From qut at netcom.com Sat Aug 24 12:54:05 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Skipp OBC) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 03:54:05 +0800 Subject: Abuse by llurch of ISP Message-ID: <199608240240.TAA13822@netcom16.netcom.com> >From qut Fri Aug 23 19:21:25 1996 Subject: Re: Abusive mail from qut at netcom.com refused To: abuse at netcom.com, rcgraves at ix.netcom.com, llurch at stanford.edu Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:21:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199608240106.SAA07144 at Networking.Stanford.EDU> from "Rich Graves" at Aug 23, 96 06:06:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1564 ! Dear Netcom: ! ! You suspended the account of this cross between Boursy and Dan Gannon (but Absurd! Boursy is non-political and objectively a true net abuser. So is Gannon who spammed thousands of newsgroups with identical political posts, such groups as sci.physics and sci.math . ! not as sincere) for two weeks in March for net abuse including mailbombing ! and forging cancels. Please restore what little faith I once had in Netcom ! by considering doing so again. Netcom has considerably higher standards than Stanford, an account there is apparantly considered an actual right rather than a service. llurch at stanford.edu is his address he abuses the net from, you won't find his abuses from rcgraves at ix.netcom.com which he very rarely uses, this e-mail, for example, was forged from networking.stanford.edu . ! All mail from qut at netcom.com to any of my email addresses is now being ! bounced to you as well as to him. Until he stops, you will usually receive ! multiple copies, because he usually sends multiple copies. This is absurd, we both subscribe to the same mailing list, cypherpunks, thereby anything I post to the list will be abusively e-mailed to abuse at netcom.com . Also, It is inherent that posting to usenet invites e-mailed responses, which would make what he is doing even more abusive. Rich Graves is a prominant net abuser, false complaints are part of his repertoire. He has never before complained about recieving courtesy copies of responses to his posts, this is the first I've heard of it. -- qut at netcom.com From declan at eff.org Sat Aug 24 13:24:50 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 04:24:50 +0800 Subject: Republican and Democratic party platforms [NOT!] on technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Rich Graves wrote, quoting me: > > But the benefit of having a pro-privacy statement in the platform (which in > > fact was watered down significantly from that originally proposed by > > advocates on our side) is that the platform covers Republican Party > > candidates for any office, not just the presidency. > > One Republican staffer sent you an ass-kissing note quoting an ALLEGED piece > of the platform WHICH IS NOT ACTUALLY THERE. The platform was finalized on > August 12th. The text you quoted is not even in the list of rejected > amendments. Wrong. Check out what I've attached below. Happily, I don't waste time listening to Rich's rants. I take this as a lesson that his posts are, in fact, not worth the time it takes to delete them. Rich, I suggest you stick to whining about MS Windows unless you enjoy the embarrassment of being proved wrong, once again. -Declan --- Muckraker By Brock Meeks http://www.hotwired.com/muckraker/ [...] The word "Internet" appears only once in the platform language. It's a small victory, but not an insignificant one. Two paragraphs are of particular interest - the last two in the "Creating Jobs for Americans" section. Here they are: "The communications revolution empowers individuals, enhances health care, opens up opportunity for rural areas, and strengthens families and institutions. A Dole-led Congress passed the Telecommunications Act of 1996 to promote full and open competition and freedom of choice in the telecommunications marketplace. In contrast, the Clinton-Gore administration repeatedly defended big-government regulation. The micromanagement of the Information Age is an impediment to the development of America's information superhighway. "We support the broadest access to telecommunications networks and services, based upon marketplace capabilities. The Internet today is the most staggering example of how the Information Age can and will enhance the lives of Americans everywhere. To further this explosion of new-found freedoms and opportunities, privacy, through secured communications, has never been more important. Bob Dole and the Republican Party will promote policies that ensure that the US remains the world leader in science, technology, and innovation." First off, it's amazing to see the Republicans taking credit for the Telecommunications Reform Act because, in doing so, they also are taking credit for one of the most egregious attacks on the First Amendment in recent history: the passage of the Communications Decency Act, which was embedded in the telecom bill like a virus. [...] The really interesting stuff comes after you decode the phrase "privacy, through secured communications." This really means: "the right to use private encryption technology." This brilliant gem was wedged into the platform, so I'm told, through the efforts of Senator Conrad Burns' staff. Burns, of course, is the author of the pro-crypto technology bill known as "Pro-CODE," which flies in the face of the administration's nearly paranoid anti-crypto policies. [...] // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From whgiii at amaranth.com Sat Aug 24 14:16:12 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:16:12 +0800 Subject: USPS In-Reply-To: <199608231401.HAA10139@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608240345.WAA10974@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199608231401.HAA10139 at toad.com>, on 08/23/96 at 10:01 AM, "Peter Trei" said: >Closing deals: Ever hear of faxes or FedEx? >My personal impression was that Raines had been listening to his >own propaganda for too long, and was rather out of touch with the >way things are done outside of the Beltway. I got the feeling that >the USPS was desperately trying to find a role in a time where it >was becoming merely the cheapest and slowest player in the >package delivery business. Ahhh... But you truly miss the buety of this system. Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you wright. Eventually they could get rid of all snail-mail. Put in place scaners with OCR, handwrighting reconition & voice dictation in local post offices for those without Inet access. The even BIGGER PICTURE: Eventually we will not have dial-up internet access the way it is today. Mater of fact we will not have phone systems the way we have today. Instead we will have 1 huge network, a SuperIneternet, inwhich all homes & business are connected. For those without computers in their homes will be small dumb terminals that will let them connect & provide basic services (such devices are being developed right now). In such a system anyone could be monitored, at any time. Sound far fetched? The technology is here now to do this. Just remember that the "powers to be" don't think in terms of months or years but decades. It may take 20-30yrs for such a system to be fully implimented. "They" are very patient. 1984? no, 2084 without a doubt! - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Windows: Just another pane in the glass. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh6EZI9Co1n+aLhhAQGh9QQAht8JS5rNOLyk3m8XlcXyjEFr5meerldB 9wDqhnaHJbgLmgC2NNcvAcYgGpAQfMRDHwzBXPX0PBCndXk87BfppFtnvexGOhgh gD/170jrgbGbH1CDAvOCxtv4Hp0kM6qk1yO2IJcfPjhPZqD/mPyeUwV/MEpw4blE iFUfY4Uvvsg= =pho2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bdurham at metronet.com Sat Aug 24 14:21:00 1996 From: bdurham at metronet.com (Brian Durham) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:21:00 +0800 Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960823190618.00ba29dc@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: <321F0BDF.3DA0@metronet.com> Yeah. The headers on the 'SSL: The early days' mail from pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz look _pretty_ strange. Brian Durham From zachb at netcom.com Sat Aug 24 14:26:29 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:26:29 +0800 Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960823190618.00ba29dc@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > At 10:54 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > > > >--SAA08114.840765294/tera.mcom.com-- > > This is bizzare. I have gotten three messages with this message. > > Is someone at Netscape canceling messages? (mcom.com is the old domain name > of Netscape.) > > Anyone have any ideas on this? I don't have a clue what it is, but it's sure pissing me off. I've gotten about 15 or so of these messages in the past two hours. If it's an honest error, then someone better fix it real fast; if some loser is jerking us around, ...... > --- > Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction > --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From sparks at bah.com Sat Aug 24 14:27:46 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:27:46 +0800 Subject: FW: "Freedom on Trial," from October 1996 Playboy Message-ID: <01BB91A1.3FEBC9C0@crypto-1.bah.com> >>Forwarded Message<< why is this happening ?? Is it my system or a remailer ? ----- Message body suppressed ----- --GAA11758.840807801/tera.mcom.com-- >>End of forwarded message<< From daemon at anon.penet.fi Sat Aug 24 14:32:16 1996 From: daemon at anon.penet.fi (daemon at anon.penet.fi) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:32:16 +0800 Subject: Anonymous nickname changed. Message-ID: <9608241335.AA15080@anon.penet.fi> You have requested the replacement or assignment of a nickname Your nickname is now Crypto Anarchist. From nick at multipro.com Sat Aug 24 14:32:24 1996 From: nick at multipro.com (Nick West) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:32:24 +0800 Subject: CIA Contra Crack and LA Gangs (fwd) Message-ID: <199608241608.LAA04066@server.multipro.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 05:13 PM 8/20/96 -0400, you wrote: > >It also rained cocaine in Tennessee in the '80s, >but the authorities never seemed to notice. Ask the Knoxville >_News-Sentinel_ how many stories it can find in its archives relating >to planes loaded with cocaine crash-landing on remote airstrips, >airdrops being found in citizens' yards, etc. Then ask the DEA what it did >about those events. > >bd > One of our former mayors in my town, was brought to trial for this. He had allegedly paid off a police officer and/or the airport to let the plane land. From what I have heard it was pretty cut and dry that he did it. But all he had to do was get a lawyer that caught the government prosecution with their pants down and he's running for city council this year. Its a shame. I haven't heard the DEA mentioned by anybody. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh8MFMF7aWKjtgVVAQFeHwQAvZDBWOEl4CuWY+A8oMe4F5zs6B7LU1Su j/KZ3h0Z1P6P/Oxqut98NQO48Wzz5O3EpivjOGEvChsR2e+Au/rfXwt9PxQ8DeMd 26UwFy/3yYJWQtckcPmNhxtE13FflkyGBi/QgRLX7spFFhD0a4Ooyaekq+D0UZ5c kYLUiFasrjA= =Xxf7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Nick West nick at multipro.com Member of the National Wild Turkey Federation and The Libertarian Party of Tennessee http://members.tripod.com/~NWest/index.html PGP Fingerprint= F9 F7 92 D9 D3 0B 56 3E FA 2A 78 59 27 32 7D 6F Public key available on request. From bdurham at metronet.com Sat Aug 24 14:33:42 1996 From: bdurham at metronet.com (Brian Durham) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:33:42 +0800 Subject: [Fwd: SSL: The early days] Message-ID: <321F0C26.102@metronet.com> An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 320 URL: From jimbell at pacifier.com Sat Aug 24 14:33:52 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:33:52 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks Message-ID: <199608240535.WAA28490@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:34 PM 8/23/96 -0500, Robert A. Rosenberg wrote: >At 20:49 -0800 8/21/96, jim bell wrote: > >>At 10:55 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: > >>>That's because you like dead Presidents. >>> >> >>$50's and $100's are great! > >Was Ben Franklin ($100) a President? I must have my list wrong or I did a >sideways time jump without knowing . Remember, I added the part about the old dead fat philosophers, too! Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From nick at multipro.com Sat Aug 24 14:34:48 1996 From: nick at multipro.com (Nick West) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:34:48 +0800 Subject: Richard Jewell case Message-ID: <199608241608.LAA04081@server.multipro.com> Timothy C. May wrote: >By the way, the case against Richard Jewell, "THE ATLANTA BOMBER!!!!," >continues to crumble...the voice on the 911 call doesn't match his, he >couldn't have gotten to the phone at the time the call was made, and the >hordes of investigators who tore his apartment apart (and his cabin, and so >on) found no real evidence (just the "profile" evidence: some gun >magazines, a photo of him cradling an AR-15, his weight, and probably a >subscription to The Playboy Channel). > >Further, experts point out that if Jewell was working with an accomplice >(to make the phone call), this blows all conventional theories of a >"would-be hero" out of the water: the last thing such a would-be hero wants >is an accomplice, who shares in the risk but gets none of the credit, and >who could turn him in. Don't expect his name to be cleared until they find another "suspect". The only reason he's being kept under investigation is to keep the FBI from coming under attack by the public for not having a suspect. In other words he's being kept as a poster boy for the case until they can find another one. Nick West nick at multipro.com Member of the National Wild Turkey Federation and The Libertarian Party of Tennessee http://members.tripod.com/~NWest/index.html PGP Fingerprint= F9 F7 92 D9 D3 0B 56 3E FA 2A 78 59 27 32 7D 6F Public key available on request. From jya at pipeline.com Sat Aug 24 14:35:15 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:35:15 +0800 Subject: HYS_ter Message-ID: <199608241449.OAA21593@pipe6.t1.usa.pipeline.com> 8-24-96. NYP: "Investigators Look at History of Terrorism to Compile a List of Suspects in Crash." Over the years, terrorists have demonstrated frightening expertise in making bombs and concealing them. "The fact of the matter is that we found out terrorists could create bombs that were very, very difficult to detect," says the FBI. "A fairly small amount, well placed, can do the job," said Dr. Jimmie Oxley, of the NRC's airline security committee. "A colleague once said he could do it with a gram, in the right place." Bomb-making technology continually advances, as Israeli authorities discovered in 1986 when they intercepted a suitcase being smuggled in from the Gaza Strip. The terrorists appeared to have spun the suitcase on a centrifuge that allowed the plastic explosive to flow into its corners and virtually disappear. Ariel Merari, who has studied hundreds of terrorist incidents, says bombers are limited only by their own imaginations when it comes to building bombs and finding ways to get them aboard airliners. "However," he said, "the use of sophisticated bombs are more likely to be the work of state-sponsored terrorism than anything else." ----- http://jya.com/hyster.txt (11 kb) Via: www.anonymizer.com HYS_ter From perry at piermont.com Sat Aug 24 14:36:09 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:36:09 +0800 Subject: Ruritania In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960821191809.377f6c4c@primenet.com> Message-ID: <199608241732.NAA22285@jekyll.piermont.com> Censored Girls Anonymous writes: > The Legend of Ruritania > > There was once a far away land called Ruritania, and in this land there was > a strange phenomenon -- all the trees that grew there were transparent. > In the old days, the people had lived in mud huts. But now, high-tech wood > technology had been developed, and in this new age of wood, everyone in > Ruritania found that their homes were all 100% see through. When people repost my writing, I prefer that they leave some indication on that I wrote it. Perry From jya at pipeline.com Sat Aug 24 14:36:28 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:36:28 +0800 Subject: SLE_uth Message-ID: <199608241459.OAA22389@pipe6.t1.usa.pipeline.com> 8-25-96. NYP: "When Buildings Fall, an Engineer Becomes a Sleuth." A zero-crypto report on forensic engineering firms which investigate blimp-market buildings rigged-to-blow by cardinal conspiracy of the realestate.pumpery. ----- http://jya.com/sleuth.txt (9 kb) SLE_uth From rwright at adnetsol.com Sat Aug 24 14:38:12 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:38:12 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <199608240439.VAA05529@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About 21 Aug 96, 15:08, Brian Davis wrote: > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > > --WAA10812.840778802/tera.mcom.com-- > > > =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From whgiii at amaranth.com Sat Aug 24 14:49:53 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:49:53 +0800 Subject: Spamming In-Reply-To: <199608211955.PAA01059@phoenix.iss.net> Message-ID: <199608241413.JAA14437@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199608211955.PAA01059 at phoenix.iss.net>, on 08/21/96 at 04:00 PM, "Alex F" said: > ----- Message body suppressed ----- O.K. I have seen this on several messages. What's up?? - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->Windows: Just another pane in the glass. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMh8Xi49Co1n+aLhhAQGv9wP9EyvGQXX8g2sIoEvnjqAzTEL5P7FoBZQt ZfhYCv+RY+SKgosn3ElVqJaAy3U3UpwQOwxKmaFB51vBHVtEjoi+yndL5wg+hfiX tjloHoV8jcbrvGOGIjfj6YVcwASKXQAv3ydQOX24CRzX5vElnRn96mbRpqJkPomy rzPQD7VsljE= =yXl6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From 451degree at msn.com Sat Aug 24 14:59:37 1996 From: 451degree at msn.com (Mike Howell) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:59:37 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Does anyone know how to connect to the internet thru MSN mail? From 451degree at msn.com Sat Aug 24 15:20:06 1996 From: 451degree at msn.com (Mike Howell) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 06:20:06 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Does anybody know what I can get for generating the credit card numbers? From 451degree at msn.com Sat Aug 24 15:23:33 1996 From: 451degree at msn.com (Mike Howell) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 06:23:33 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Does anybody know where I can get good scanning program. Thanks a lot, 451 degree :-) From lzirko at c2.net Sat Aug 24 15:31:51 1996 From: lzirko at c2.net (Lou Zirko) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 06:31:51 +0800 Subject: "----- Message body suppressed -----" Message-ID: <199608240242.TAA29010@infinity.c2.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: alano at teleport.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 23 22:43:00 1996 I just got 17 more in the last 30 minutes. They appear to match messages delivered already as per sender, subject and time. The only common issue I see it toad. I have copied a set below. - ------------ FULL Message Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by infinity.c2.org (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA15937 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from big.aa.net (root at big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA15932 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fozzy.aa.net (moon-c24.aa.net [204.157.220.124]) by big.aa.net (8.7/8.7.5) with SMTP id GAA06741 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:57:16 -0700 X-UIDL: 840751255.041 X-Intended-For: From: blane at aa.net (Brian C. Lane) To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: SpamBot Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:56:22 GMT Organization: Nexus Computing Reply-To: blane at aa.net Message-ID: <321c65db.721494 at mail.aa.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Precedence: bulk Well, with all the other noise in the list lately, I'll add a little of my own. I woke up today to find my mailbox filled with 20 messages from a 'careernetonline.com' offering to spread my resume across the net for $60. It was one of those terrorist spams where they apologize for wasting your time and tell you that you can stop getting spammed by replying to the message. Well, I really hate giving in to terrorists, no matter what form they take. And I'm sick and tired of spam. So, I'm starting a project called SpamBot. You feed it a message and a list of addresses and the bot send the message to those addresses until they reply with an appropriate message indicating that they are at least looking into the problem. Some people may say that this is sinking to their level. So it is, but I think its time that system administrators realized that there are people who don't appreciate being the target for shotgun marketing schemes (none of which have been of any use to me). Watch my webpage for more info on this helpful little bot. Brian - ------- -------------------- - ------- "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice" - B. Goldwater ============== 11 99 3D DB 63 4D 0B 22 15 DC 5A 12 71 DE EE 36 ============ - --------- SUPPRESED Message Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by infinity.c2.org (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20706 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from littlewing.mcom.com (h-205-217-255-33.netscape.com [205.217.255.33]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20700 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root at localhost) by littlewing.mcom.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA08776; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maleman.mcom.com (maleman.mcom.com [198.93.92.3]) by tera.mcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA13912 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:51:48 -0700 Received: from ns.netscape.com (ns.netscape.com.mcom.com [198.95.251.10]) by maleman.mcom.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA11324; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:24:22 -0700 Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by ns.netscape.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA08688; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA15937 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from big.aa.net (root at big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA15932 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fozzy.aa.net (moon-c24.aa.net [204.157.220.124]) by big.aa.net (8.7/8.7.5) with SMTP id GAA06741 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:57:16 -0700 X-UIDL: 840854011.002 X-Intended-For: From: blane at aa.net (Brian C. Lane) To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: SpamBot Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:56:22 GMT Organization: Nexus Computing Reply-To: blane at aa.net Message-ID: <321c65db.721494 at mail.aa.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Precedence: bulk ----- Message body suppressed ----- - --GAA13919.840808533/tera.mcom.com-- > At 06:25 PM 8/23/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >At 1:10 AM 8/21/96, Skip wrote: > >> ----- Message body suppressed ----- > >> > > > > > >Sounds good to me. Keep it up. > > It looks like an internal mailing list version of Cypherpunks at > Netscape is > feeding back into the regular list with weird results. > > --- > | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com > "| > |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: > | > | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man > | > |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the > keyboard.| > | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com > | > > > Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko at c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMh56UctPRTNbb5z9AQFi4Qf9HKkx+OBM4CdgkIsZvWRsiJ8PDR/TCzai 5vjLUFuDG2462VRHV5onGQ4KZo7XwnyGsjdAgUrx3XzXcXAbKyA3luDOkM5C/8Vk YRBO3pLnCCBUB+54QVt65QgjMZ6JtuCuUZO3ntwwUL9Wde/Y1v0nmHXmuZZE++v3 tyrWrfDRh1aEuwGNjNcEEFQ9ZUEsM/y5RCvVlD/4VyvWSUvDejGItMnIbMWICs2j jt48NNiMK3uU4A5bLDbonzgn4f6n21wF62AJwkAf3UB0DMwJ9DLz2isfOUe50B3h FPw1FZqPvdOz5BV61bKcx2ABU5GZDEe+ZBZ5zdFZ7Xl7JaQbg46CYg== =uBW8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rwright at adnetsol.com Sat Aug 24 15:47:36 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 06:47:36 +0800 Subject: Who Is Littlewing? or Supressed Message. Message-ID: <199608242035.NAA19816@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Message header: Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by adnetsol.adnetsol.com (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA19273; Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:59:47 -0700 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA22074 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 21:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from littlewing.mcom.com (h-205-217-255-33.netscape.com [205.217.255.33]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA21979 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 21:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root at localhost) by littlewing.mcom.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA09395; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maleman.mcom.com (maleman.mcom.com [198.93.92.3]) by tera.mcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA14308 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:54:09 -0700 Received: from ns.netscape.com (ns.netscape.com.mcom.com [198.95.251.10]) by maleman.mcom.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA06409; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:08:50 -0700 Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by ns.netscape.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA01875; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA13213 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 04:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aeat.co.uk (gw.aeat.co.uk [151.182.136.1]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA13206 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 04:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clare.risley.aeat.co.uk by aeat.co.uk (8.7.1/AEAT-GW-1.3) id MAA20980; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:48:47 +0100 (BST) Received: by clare.risley.aeat.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13676; Thu, 22 Aug 96 12:49:06 BST Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 12:49:06 BST From: peter.allan at aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan) Message-Id: <9608221149.AA13676 at clare.risley.aeat.co.uk> To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Re: cryptoanalysis 002 Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Precedence: bulk X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 ----- Message body suppressed ----- --GAA14322.840808677/tera.mcom.com-- =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From maintains at nemesis.meaning.com Sat Aug 24 16:08:02 1996 From: maintains at nemesis.meaning.com (maintains) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 07:08:02 +0800 Subject: EVIL GUVMINT suppresses our mailing list. message bodies are truncated. we can circumvent the looming censorship if we compose our messages such that all the text goes into the Subject: lines. Please use only subjects to transmit your views. Thank you. Message-ID: <199608242012.NAA16720@black.colossus.net> - - - MESAGE BODY SUPPRESED _ _ _ - - - From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Sat Aug 24 16:12:59 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 07:12:59 +0800 Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960823232429.00d969ec@mail.teleport.com> Message-ID: For your global killfile: /mcom\.list\./ in a Received: header. -rich From npoznick at Harding.edu Sat Aug 24 16:25:39 1996 From: npoznick at Harding.edu (nathan poznick) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 07:25:39 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton SucksHusband/Wife jailedfor say In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, nathan poznick wrote: > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > > --CAA28506.840792176/tera.mcom.com-- what is the deal with this??? i never sent anything relating to this thread? nate. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Nathan Poznick ^ ^ ^ ^ http://www.harding.edu/~npoznick ^ ^ ^ ^ "640k should be enough for anybody." ^ ^ ^ ^ --Bill Gates, 1981-- ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From hal9001 at panix.com Sat Aug 24 16:31:52 1996 From: hal9001 at panix.com (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 07:31:52 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks In-Reply-To: <199608220351.UAA01292@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: At 20:49 -0800 8/21/96, jim bell wrote: >At 10:55 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote: >>That's because you like dead Presidents. >> > >$50's and $100's are great! Was Ben Franklin ($100) a President? I must have my list wrong or I did a sideways time jump without knowing . From zachb at netcom.com Sat Aug 24 17:09:51 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:09:51 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Mike Howell wrote: > Does anybody know what I can get for generating the credit card numbers? > At least 5 years in prison... --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From vipul at pobox.com Sat Aug 24 17:09:54 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:09:54 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: <199605140416.EAA00577@fountainhead.net> > The advertizers in printed & broadcast media exercise a great deal of control > over the content. E.g., a magazine that gets revenues from tobacco ads isn't > likely to run a story about tobacco companies trying to addict kids. That's > why you see more anti-tobacco content in broadcast media (who can't run > tobacco ads) than in printed media. (And there are cross-ownership > restrictions.) This can be true to certain extent. But if the mag doesn't maintain objectivity, it will kill itself slowly. Same is true of broadcast media. Vipul From erehwon at c2.net Sat Aug 24 17:10:48 1996 From: erehwon at c2.net (William Knowles) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:10:48 +0800 Subject: Generating credit card numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Mike Howell wrote: > Does anybody know what I can get for generating the credit card > numbers? Since this is a federal offense, I would think 5-10 years in the federal pen. William Knowles erehwon at c2.net -- William Knowles PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key -- Vote for Harry Browne in November -- http://www.HarryBrowne96.org From 451degree at msn.com Sat Aug 24 17:17:37 1996 From: 451degree at msn.com (Mike Howell) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:17:37 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: How can I sign off the MSN forewer? Please tell me how can I quit this MSN thing for ever, I don`t want to pay for this anymore... From vipul at pobox.com Sat Aug 24 17:54:27 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:54:27 +0800 Subject: Web Resource on Netspam Message-ID: <319812D5.604D8509@pobox.com> http://www.metareality.com/~nathan/visit.cgi/html.Spam Title: Spam (Not the Hormel product) [Fighting Spam] : [Graffiti] : [Home] : [Limericks] : [Linkage] An honest politician is one who takes your bribe AND votes as you ask. Spam (Not the Hormel product) Anyone familiar with the usenet has seen it. It's the vile stuff that brain-dead get-rick-quick scheme promoters and professionsal advertisers foist upon us all with increasing regularity. There are (to date) two species of spam, differentiated by the mechanism by which they are delivered. Each has its own defining charateristics, each has its own sub-species, but both have two things in common: they're made possible by the workings of the internet, and they're both examples of the same type of 'cost-shifting' that made junk faxes illegal. Contrary to postal junk mail, where the sender bears the full cost of delivery, the spammer bears only a fraction of the cost of delivery; the remainder of the costs are borne by us, the recipients. It's a waste of your bandwidth, your disk space, and your time. email spam Messages delivered by electronic mail to large numbers of recipients who did not ask for or otherwise solicit the messages. It's the junk mail of the 21st century, only worse. usenet spam Messages delivered by usenet to large numbers of newsgroups whose chartered topics are unrelated to (and may even explicitly forbid) the topic of the message. Not enough people seem to realize that there are constructive ways to deal with it, and to reduce the chance that you'll have to deal with it again in the future. What to do What NOT to do The most effective is to write some polite email to the administrator of the site from which the spam originated. You'll soon learn that most system administrators are very unhappy about users who spam the net. It's always gratifying when they write back to tell you that the offending account has been terminated. Start reading news.admin.net-abuse.misc to learn more about how to deal with spammers. If there's a 1-800 number, call it to express your displeasure. It might please you to note that 1-800 numbers typically cost them a small amount of money with each call. How much do you pay for your disk space and bandwidth with each unsolicited bit of email? It's only fair, right? Grab your telephone, or even pay them a visit in person. You generally have to have access to a unix command line to find the phone numbers and addresses, unless you're dealing with the same spammers that have been bothering me. Why stick to email? If they're in your area, tell them face-to-face that you object to their tactics. Don't post a follow-up message in the same newsgroup. Do you really think that the spammer is going to re-visit thousands of newsgroups to see what people had to say? The same goes for mailing lists. If you get spammed via a mailing list, never reply to the list. Your words will just get re-broadcast to everyone else on the list, thus doubling the nuisance created by the spammer. Fun stuff that doesn't get results, but might be good for a laugh RecyclingIf they enjoy sending spam, then it only makes sense that they wouldn't mind getting their own, right? Just for kicks, forward each new spam to the spammers who have pestered you in the past. While I can't vouch for its effectiveness, it does reek of poetic justice, and it makes me feel a little better. It usually makes people laugh out loud when I explain it, too. A Pre-emptive Anti-Spam TacticWhy wait to get spammed, when you can see them coming in news.admin.net-abuse.misc? Let the spammers know in advance that they will be charged (insert dollar amount here) if they send you any junk mail. Additional references Spam and Anonymous Remailing Services Damien Lucifer (ncognito at gate.net) operates an anonymous remailing service. He's put together a page covering spam and remailers, including how to get a remailer to stop spamming you, and it is my pleasure to host this page for him. mail bombing For advanced spam-fighters only. Can concerted emailbombing be employed as a legitimate spam-fighting tactic? Pros, cons, and related issues. About Junk Email Some of the hows and whys of junk email, and tactics you can use to help rid yourself of it. A press release from MCI ...with information about their anti-spam policies. See also their online policy statement. Note that MCI's seriousness about these statements has been severely questioned in light of their (mis)handling of the Moneyworld/CHAG spammer. 30 days between announcing that the situation is being dealt with and finally cutting off a spammer with message-per-week spamming speed? This is pretty disgusting in light of the good press MCI got when they announced their spam policies. It's starting to look more like a PR stunt than a policy statement. I can only take comfort knowing that at least their sysadmins are aware of (and frustrated with) the situation. I must disclaim that civil legal issues may be involved in the MCI/Moneyworld dispute, so there may be things going on that the public isn't aware of. Still, for MCI not to have covered its corporate ass does not speak well of MCI's sincerity or the competence of MCI's lawyers. Outlaw Junk EMail Now! Write your legislators, ask them to expand the TCPA to include junk email! Note that as the law is currently written, it is unlikely to be applicable to email. Fighting Junk Email" More information about junk email and related issues. Includes pointers to mechanical tactics for dealing with junk email. Spam FAQ Everything you never wanted to know about net spamming. Get that spammer!Webified TCP/IP tools to aid in the fight against spam. Litigation to the rescue? Use of the Telephone Consumer Protection Act of 1991 (47 U.S.C. sec 227) to nail junk emails. The case described was settled out of court, but the ideas is intriguing. This commentary, written by a lawyer, does not seem optistic about applying the TCPA directly to junk email, but doesn't rule out the possibility, either. Litigation to the rescue! $500 fines for junk mail via the courts. Sounds like promising tactic for dealing with intra-USA spammings. Some commentary on this law was posted to usenet a while back. The U.S. Postal Service on Chain Letters Contrary to what the make.money.fast crowd would have you believe, these scams are illegal. See the aforelinked page for details, and and consider talking to the appropriate postal inspector as well. The Better Business Bureau These folks will be happy to be notified of 'improper selling practices' via the aforelinked form. Anti-Spam lists This is a relatively new phenomenon. People are starting to offer the 'service' of collecting lists of addresses of folks who do not want to get spam. I think this is a bad idea, since it attempts to legitimize junk email, by implying that if an email address is not on the list, it's prefectly OK to send junk email. The other problem with this idea is that there are going to be several of them, and no junkmailer is going to filter their list using each "service." Thus, it will be up to the recipients to track down all of the "services." Currently there are at least three running. One is at http://dm1.com/Epreference/epref.html, one is at http://www.kenjen.com/nospam, and I don't have an URL for the last - it was sent to me via unsolicited email, naturally. Terms of Service and Acceptable usage policies Most Internet service providers require that their customers agree to a set of terms of service (TOS) or an acceptable usage policy (AUP). A random sampling: Mindspring's policy, Primenet's AUP, MCI's spamming policy, and the terms and conditions for my own ISP, Northwest Nexus (a.k.a. halcyon.com). I should note that while Northwest Nexus doesn't describe spamming in their terms of service, they have booted more than one spammer in the past. It surprises me greatly that they aren't explicit about this in their published terms and conditions. A spamhandling robot This is very "under construction," but worth mentioning anyhow. I'm putting together some perl code to automate the spam-handling process. Common flavors of net.spam The MAKE.MONEY.FAST scheme A direct descendant of the chain letters of old, this is the pyramid scam of the information age... A quick look at the mathematics behind the idea will expose the scam. Phone-sex cretins They post a couple of lines of text-mode heavy breathing, and usually a 1-800 number that you're invited to call. Call the 1-800 number. Really. It costs them money every time you do! They make their money via the 1-900 number that they ask you to call next. So just call the 1-800 number again. And again. And again. [Fighting Spam] : [Graffiti] : [Home] : [Limericks] : [Linkage] Don't just browse here, say something! Speak your mind in this space here: The true beauty of Usenet is the way it allows free communication. You can be rich/poor/ugly/ religious/atheist or a member of any race/religion or be young/old... That's the wonder - everyone can talk to one another and share ideas. Then spam comes along. It fills up newsgroups with so much noise that no one reads it any more. That wondrous method of communication has been lost. That's why I hate spam. You just don't get it, do you? No, deleting one piece of email doesn't take much. Then again, neither does appealing to a system administrator to have the spammer shut down. Two or three bits of junk a day really is something I can live with, but I don't want to. So why should I? Two or three bits of trash by the roadside won't mean the end of the world. Tossing empty cans out the window costs less than having your trash hauled away - what a great opportunity to save money! If litter were acceptable, a public beach would be no place to spend an afternoon. Postal mail costs the sender with each mailing. This keeps junk postal mail to tolerable levels. EMail costs the sender maybe $20/month, period. Are you so fucking stupid that you don't realize what a cesspool the net would be if this were allowed to grow unchecked? -NW People complain about spam and mass E-mailers. But my question is: what's the big deal? Does it REALLY take THAT much PRECIOUS time out of your day to click and delete a piece of E-mail? I think that the people complaining about others taking advantage of an excellent business opportunity ought to just relax a bit. And just HOW does it COST you to deal with SPAM? With ISP's dropping access prices and providing unlimited access to the internet, how could it possibly COST someone to get an E-mail message? I think you people really need to just kick back and relax already. Geeze, if it wasn't SPAM what else would you find to complain about? Spam isn't about content, spam is about quantity and cost shifting. TV spam would be the same ad on every channel at the same time. Print spam would be junk mail sent postage due or charge-on-delivery. With the ads on TV and in newspapers, the advertisers pay the expenses associated with publishing their ads. With net spam, the recipients pay the expenses associated with carrying the ads. That is the key difference. The costs of ads in traditional media help to support the very media that deliver the ads. With net.spam, there are no costs, and the ads just serve to sap the medium. All you need is a free trial account (AOL, interramp, or earthlink, etc are famous for this), and you can broadcast a huge amount of spam before anyone notices. Or, you can pay for an account with MCI, and broadcast huge amounts of spam for 30 days after the sysadmins realize what's going on. -NW Net-based spam is not the only form of spam. There is spam in print and spam in TV advertising. Wouldn't you say every Calvin Klein ad on TV, magazines or billboards is spam? How about Budweiser, Lite beer, and McDonalds commercials. If you see any type of advertising that offends your senses, you should feel free to boycott the products, ask your friends to boycott the products, etc. If the company has an 800 number or web site, let them know that you find their advertising offensive. I am really, really, REALLY tired of being solicited to buy things whenever I log on to my computer. I mean, I pay for the phone line, the software, the hardware, the accounts and my time is worth money as well. I get a LOT of e-mail and a SIZEABLE portion of it is junk e-mail. When I read news, about 10% of it is junk e-mail; more if it is a small newsgroup. I want to know what uninformed idiot is selling my address, or where these people are GETTING it. I have never bought anything over the computer. I have bounced unsolicited junk back to the people who send it. (I love how righteously indignant these people are: they send you mail and expect you to buy something from them and when you fail to perform as expected with joy and gratitude...if you should, in fact, protest them wasting your time and resources...they get downright rude and abusive. The presumptuousness of it just really annoys me.) The capper is that I did some artwork for the anti-Canter- and-Siegel "Green Card Lawyers" tees Joel Furr was offering a while ago. The ultimate clue that I am not interested in spam of any sort, but how could they know? It's just amusing. Let it be known that I am not a test market, nor will I buy any of your crap, be it face cream, thigh cream, green cards, stock options, modems, books, herbs, or the golden goose itself. Not interested. I don't know you, I have no reason to trust you, and you are spamming MY mailbox and expecting ME to reward this with money. No, thank you. I've been online for more than 5 years, and I really long for the "good old days" before the Net was "cool". There ya go. My tuppence. Now...where do I go to put my name on the "Don't Send This Person Crap Mail" list? (Laugh) SPAM is only going to go away if we make sure companies learn that SPAMming doesn't get costumers to buy thier products and it does more to stop potential costumers from buying thier products. I've heard a couple of different conflicting stories about the origins of the use of the word spam in this context. The most popular version suggests that is was inspired by the Monty Python skit in which virtually every item on some restaurant's menu includes spam in some form or other. The waiter's recitation of the menu becomes unintelligible except for '...and spam, spam with..., spam salad, ...with spam, spam mixed with..." and so on. It really picks up when the Vikings start chanting "spam-spam spam, spam, spam-spam spam, spam...." ad nauseum. This is what the net would be like if this stuff was allowed to continue unchecked. If that's not a horrifying thought, maybe you should see the skit in question. My personal belief is that geeks (who make up much of the 'net community (myself included), much of Monty Python's audience, and probably most of Monty Python's cast) just tend to use the word spam when more appropriate words don't come to mind readily. For no particularly good reason, it really stuck this time. -NW Due to popular demand, I've expanded the first couple of paragraphs to better explain what spam is and why it's such a pain in the ass. Personally, I'm getting two to five unsolicited email messages every week. This is up from approximately zero unsolicited messages per week a few years ago when I first started using the Internet and Usenet. It's a trend that has been steadily increa sing, especially for the last year or two. It's a trend that really really worries me. It's a trend that is, worst of all, wasting my time! -NW I an working on a Usenet news server designed to filter spam from a news feed and quietly drop it. Announcements in due course (next few months) but if anyone wants to help with other platforms and live feed debugging please mail me. Wow! Thanks for the help. I'll certainly become an anti-spam activist and use your information to good effect. I don't get it! What is SPAM? Pardon my ignorance but what does "SPAM"ming mean? "SICK PEOPLE AGAINST MAIL"??? For the Spammers that have a web page I visit it with a macro every time that I leave my system idle while connected for more then 5 min. This way at least I'm sucking down their site and causing their site to slow down so those that are interest get bored waiting for an over taxed server to show them just what They get for "ONLY $9.99 A MONTH!!!!" and leave with out buying. The only reason they have the site is to make money. No Money, No Site, No Spam. Very nice -- I like the idea of dialing the 800 number in the ad. One might wish to be sure to mention (if there's a message taker or, even better, a human at the other end) that you saw their ad in (insert newsgroup here) -- and no, you're not interested in buying anything, you just wanted to see what they had. Unfortunately, every time you call the 800 number, chances are you're also adding your own phone number to a database that will result in your receiving "junk phone calls" on a variety of useless subjects. Solution? Make the calls from a pay phone, ideally one that doesn't accept incoming calls. Isn't spam remarkably like the countless hours of television (including but not limited to advertisements) that most of us watched in our childhoods? And to think, whoever controls the information going to the youth of the nation controls the future of the nation. Greedy, stupid corporations played a central role in molding us and shaping our opinions, attitudes, and perspectives. Something to think about, perhaps... [Fighting Spam] : [Graffiti] : [Home] : [Limericks] : [Linkage] n a t e s c a p e @ m e t a r e a l i t y . c o m This page last updated Aug 21 Comments last updated Aug 22 From Adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 24 18:38:20 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:38:20 +0800 Subject: Lesson 2 in cracking (cryptoanalysis 001) Message-ID: <19960824053648140.AAA171@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:25:42 -0400, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: >>The point is that if you took two novels by the same author and >>completely sorted them alphabetically they'd be almost the same. > >The examples cited did this by word, not by message as your stating. > >>So a block of PGP encrypted ascii-armored (i.e. 8=>7-bit encoding) >>wouldn't affect the frequency counts? Tell me, how long have you been on >>your current medications? >I was talking about the algorithm as given, not PGP. I was just trying to point out that almost any email over a given size is going to not only have nearly-infinite decode possibilities but also have somewhat altered letter-frequency tables owing to all the software-added garbage. >> That's the point!! IT'S A JOKE!!! You know, "hahaha - very funny"? Not a >> serious proposal? >I know! But at least it is relevent to the group! How many points of attack >have you seen on here? How many techniques have shown up here? So far, 1. And true, it is probably the most "on-topic" we've been in weeks... >My apologies to the fella I called a troll. It was uncalled for - lacking in >social skills. (That would have been me) No offence taken! / If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. / The government's reaction is to legislate, not educate. - Paul S. Penrod / Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp / Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" / Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 / Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From 451degree at msn.com Sat Aug 24 18:43:23 1996 From: 451degree at msn.com (Mike Howell) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:43:23 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: How can I sign off the MSN forewer? Please tell me how can I quit this MSN thing for ever, I don`t want to pay for this anymore... From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 24 18:44:40 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:44:40 +0800 Subject: Netscape appears to be bouncing our stuff around within Message-ID: I've gotten dozens of these "Message body suppressed" things, including copies of my _own_ messages sent out a couple of days ago (and received OK the first time around). It looks like " ns.netscape.com " got a copy from toad.com (see bottom of block below), bounced it around within Netscape, and then resubmitted it to toad.com (see top of block below), minus the message body. --Tim (most recent) Received: (from majordom at localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20948 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from littlewing.mcom.com (h-205-217-255-33.netscape.com [205.217.255.33]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20940 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root at localhost) by littlewing.mcom.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA11550; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maleman.mcom.com (maleman.mcom.com [198.93.92.3]) by tera.mcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA16047 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 1996 07:02:15 -0700 Received: from ns.netscape.com (ns.netscape.com.mcom.com [198.95.251.10]) by maleman.mcom.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA12104; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:17:30 -0700 Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by ns.netscape.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA00591; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (oldest) We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From vipul at pobox.com Sat Aug 24 18:47:49 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:47:49 +0800 Subject: Spamming In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960822220224.006a0ff0@labg30> Message-ID: <199605140403.EAA00545@fountainhead.net> > > At 02:55 PM 8/22/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > >> > >> At 06:09 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > [deleted] > >> 1. Junkmail requires the SENDER to pay for it, not the recipient. > > Internet pricing models are complicated and debatable, but you surely > > end up paying for snail-junk-mail. Not directly, but hidden in the high > > first-class mail costs. More mail, more infrastructure, higher costs. > > This could be quite true for the net also, if we consider bandwidth costs > > money. > > I beg to differ. The USPS considers "junk" mail their bread-and-butter. > Huge mailings of all manner of bulk mail (especially those that are PostNet > barcoded by the sender) pay the bills around the Post Office. Your "more > mail, more infrastructure, higher costs" argument is flawed. The post > office has many fixed costs related to maintaining their huge presence, > delivering to so many rural addresses. If we had to pay a per-letter basis > *discounting* the value provided by the infrastructure already in place > supporting the bulk-mail handling systems, we'd be paying roughly Federal > Express 2-day letter rates for each piece of mail (around $6.00, if memory > serves correctly.) Alright, I agree. Though this could very easily differ with size and reach of a PS. But on the net it means more bandwidth right? Which means more bandwidth, and more money. Hang on. This might not be a problem in US (as jim bell points out there is tons of untapped bandwith), but it is in other not so well connected countries. For example, if somebody spams an Indian Network from india, the spam goes to US and comes back to india (since our govt sayz you cant connect 2 local networks!) and eats up most of the 20 MBps bandwidth. Gov't will buy more bandwidth and will make us pay for it! - Vipul From alano at teleport.com Sat Aug 24 18:56:36 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:56:36 +0800 Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960823232429.00d969ec@mail.teleport.com> At 10:36 PM 8/23/96 -0700, Z.B. wrote: >On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: > >> At 10:54 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >> > ----- Message body suppressed ----- >> > >> >--SAA08114.840765294/tera.mcom.com-- >> >> This is bizzare. I have gotten three messages with this message. >> >> Is someone at Netscape canceling messages? (mcom.com is the old domain name >> of Netscape.) >> >> Anyone have any ideas on this? > >I don't have a clue what it is, but it's sure pissing me off. I've >gotten about 15 or so of these messages in the past two hours. If it's >an honest error, then someone better fix it real fast; if some loser is >jerking us around, ...... Some list redirector of somesort has gone wonky at Netscape. (Take a look at the headers if you do not believe me. They are originating off of some internal lists at mcom.com, the original Netscape domain.) Cypherpunks is not the only list effected by this. I am getting these weird messages on wwwsecurity as well. Since it is Friday, I expect that this will be with us until someone gets in the office on Monday. --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com "| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From maverick at thepentagon.com Sat Aug 24 18:59:01 1996 From: maverick at thepentagon.com (Sean Sutherland) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:59:01 +0800 Subject: Message-ID: <19960825000344312.AAA199@maverick> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sat Aug 24 19:00:18 1996 > Does anybody know what I can get for generating the credit card > numbers? > And they say there's hope for the youth of America. - --- Sean Sutherland | GCS/C d- s+:+ a--- C+++ V--- P L E- W++ N++ K w o PGP Key ID: E43E6489 | O-(++) M-- V PS+ PE++ Y PGP++ t--- 5+++ X++ R b++ Vote Harry Browne '96 | DI+ D+ G e- h! !r y -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Key: finger or email w/ 'send key' in subj. http://www2.interconnect.net/maverick iQEVAwUBMh+Xk1ZoKRrkPmSJAQGj+Af8C2P7D+3ZZ4f8h76+6UfdgqEubOO0mkWj 2DazxBMuY1b1sx1G6gaIGR9Tc11vIcoCY3pmBzhBW7Nc6do8gfOK8Bkkon6Pck1g 61tCFH6qPb2bSH0HnbzjrXJhRD6dFv9ondTtyZgiFIeMuVDDIx4+ZKvelL6BHk8x o6sLdY4Y/Nmnvz9HXrBj0DaYR8pcY96+dexwj5luvcgVkdsDjghWXZy/mHkeDXMI bvOuUOMLQyExS0Ts4D5K4/XfIhP0HUiPfdeL9oxONcLUYznywxAUevBMfHceqvsS qFnxcDcyHa8ynHLRH9Qg0t5QuKVUvTpZh3YjPXCF9QKwvIFbZukHKw== =e03n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sat Aug 24 19:17:49 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 10:17:49 +0800 Subject: Degaussing a pile of 5.25" media Message-ID: <0ig7sD1w165w@bwalk.dm.com> I have 3 bags full of 5.25" diskettes (in NYC). Can someone please let me use their degausser before I get rid of them? (Anyone who wants them after they're degaussed is welcome to them :-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From nobody at cypherpunks.ca Sat Aug 24 19:19:14 1996 From: nobody at cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 10:19:14 +0800 Subject: blahPGP/Remailers in the News! Message-ID: <199608240525.WAA15838@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Here's an EXCELLENT column on PGP and remailers: Roadside Attractions Along the Information Highway by Dave Farrell [roadside at branch.com] Your e-mail doesn't have to be for everyone's eyes Sending e-mail over the Internet can be a very convenient and efficient way to communicate. If things are working right, you can dash off a memo to a friend or colleague halfway across the world and they'll receive it within minutes. (On the other hand, I've sent off important e-mail messages into cyberspace never to hear from them again, but that's another column.) A big drawback of the e-mail, however, is that it is not private. In fact, it's a lot like mailing a postcard to a friend. Just as a lot of people handle your postcard before it gets to its final destination, your e-email mesages pass through a lot of computers before they land in the recipient's in-box. In both cases, there are plenty of opportunites for people to read your messages before they get where they're going. You may not care if someone reads the bean dip recipe you're sending to your Aunt Clara, but sensitive monthly sales reports you're emailing to your boss might be another story. While there's no way to absolutely guarantee e-mail privacy on the Net, there is a fairly simple way to make it extremely hard for prying eyes to read your messages. It's called encryption, and there's a couple of good programs available that can teach you how to encode your messages. Encryption basically involves scrambling your outgoing messages to make them unintelligible. The recipient then unscrambles them on the receiving end, converting them back into plain English. There are several encryption programs available on the Internet. I recommend you try PGP, which stands for Pretty Good Privacy. You can download a free copy of PGP from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Web site: http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html. Of course, PGP works only if you take the time to use it. To make that process easier, you should download a copy of Private Idaho, a free program that will make using PGP a point-and-click process. Private Idaho also will enable you to post anonymously to Usenet Newsgroups and do other neat tricks, such as anonymously access Web sites with your browser (you did know that you leave electronic "mouse tracks" when you visit Web sites, didn't you?) You can download a copy of Private Idaho from http://www.eskimo.com/(tilde)joelm. [retypist's note: yes, the article had "(tilde)" in place of "~"] Unfortunately for Mac users, Private Idaho is available only for Windows. If you really want to increase your Internet privacy, you might want to consider using anonymous remailers to send and receive your messages. These remailers strip your messages of your reutrn address and allow you to send e-mail that can't be easily traced back to you. There are many reamilers on the Net. Some are free, some charge. For a nice list to choose from, surf over to: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/(tilde)raph/remailer-list.html. If you're REALLY paranoid about hiding your electronic tracks, you can send your message through several anonymous remailers, which will obscure your identity over and over again. To learn more about this process, check out http://www.replay.com/staff/usura/chain.html. To save some time typing in the addresses of all the remailers you want to use, try the Community ConneXion at: http://www.c2.org/remail/by-www.html. This site will allow you to point-and-click your way through the process of selecting remailers and sending your messages. Finally, for more information about on-line privacy, visit the Electronic Privacy Information Center: http://www.epic.org. From dbell at maths.tcd.ie Sat Aug 24 19:20:01 1996 From: dbell at maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 10:20:01 +0800 Subject: [NOISE]Mangled messages Message-ID: <9608242156.aa19985@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> I did a quick count and found 35 messages that have been mangled today. Fortunately, the last message I got wasn't mangled. Hopefully this is the end of the problem. Derek From abostick at netcom.com Sat Aug 24 19:31:06 1996 From: abostick at netcom.com (Alan Bostick) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 10:31:06 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Mike Howell wrote: > Does anybody know what I can get for generating the credit card numbers? > One to five years in a Federal prison. Alan Bostick | If you can't say anything good about someone, mailto:abostick at netcom.com | sit right here by me. news:alt.grelb | Alice Roosevelt Longworth http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick From vipul at pobox.com Sat Aug 24 20:10:03 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 11:10:03 +0800 Subject: Weird "Suppression" messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199605140438.EAA00686@fountainhead.net> > > I don't have a clue what it is, but it's sure pissing me off. I've > gotten about 15 or so of these messages in the past two hours. If it's > an honest error, then someone better fix it real fast; if some loser is > jerking us around, ...... > Is this all becuz of those bad nameserver records floating around the net? Tons of ISP's have gone down! - Vipul From snow at smoke.suba.com Sat Aug 24 20:12:58 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 11:12:58 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Mike Howell wrote: > Does anyone know how to connect to the internet thru MSN mail? There is no way. You have to purchase the MicroSoft Internet Upgrade, and have the internet installed on your compter. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From cibir at netcom.com Sat Aug 24 21:21:05 1996 From: cibir at netcom.com (Joseph Seanor) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:21:05 +0800 Subject: Web Resource on Netspam In-Reply-To: <319812D5.604D8509@pobox.com> Message-ID: Another source for help in "spammers" is: http://www.netcheck.com They have helped to get some spammers accounts cancelled. Joseph Seanor CIBIR Corporation Title: Spam (Not the Hormel product) [Fighting Spam] : [Graffiti] : [Home] : [Limericks] : [Linkage] An honest politician is one who takes your bribe AND votes as you ask. Spam (Not the Hormel product) Anyone familiar with the usenet has seen it. It's the vile stuff that brain-dead get-rick-quick scheme promoters and professionsal advertisers foist upon us all with increasing regularity. There are (to date) two species of spam, differentiated by the mechanism by which they are delivered. Each has its own defining charateristics, each has its own sub-species, but both have two things in common: they're made possible by the workings of the internet, and they're both examples of the same type of 'cost-shifting' that made junk faxes illegal. Contrary to postal junk mail, where the sender bears the full cost of delivery, the spammer bears only a fraction of the cost of delivery; the remainder of the costs are borne by us, the recipients. It's a waste of your bandwidth, your disk space, and your time. email spam Messages delivered by electronic mail to large numbers of recipients who did not ask for or otherwise solicit the messages. It's the junk mail of the 21st century, only worse. usenet spam Messages delivered by usenet to large numbers of newsgroups whose chartered topics are unrelated to (and may even explicitly forbid) the topic of the message. Not enough people seem to realize that there are constructive ways to deal with it, and to reduce the chance that you'll have to deal with it again in the future. What to do What NOT to do The most effective is to write some polite email to the administrator of the site from which the spam originated. You'll soon learn that most system administrators are very unhappy about users who spam the net. It's always gratifying when they write back to tell you that the offending account has been terminated. Start reading news.admin.net-abuse.misc to learn more about how to deal with spammers. If there's a 1-800 number, call it to express your displeasure. It might please you to note that 1-800 numbers typically cost them a small amount of money with each call. How much do you pay for your disk space and bandwidth with each unsolicited bit of email? It's only fair, right? Grab your telephone, or even pay them a visit in person. You generally have to have access to a unix command line to find the phone numbers and addresses, unless you're dealing with the same spammers that have been bothering me. Why stick to email? If they're in your area, tell them face-to-face that you object to their tactics. Don't post a follow-up message in the same newsgroup. Do you really think that the spammer is going to re-visit thousands of newsgroups to see what people had to say? The same goes for mailing lists. If you get spammed via a mailing list, never reply to the list. Your words will just get re-broadcast to everyone else on the list, thus doubling the nuisance created by the spammer. Fun stuff that doesn't get results, but might be good for a laugh RecyclingIf they enjoy sending spam, then it only makes sense that they wouldn't mind getting their own, right? Just for kicks, forward each new spam to the spammers who have pestered you in the past. While I can't vouch for its effectiveness, it does reek of poetic justice, and it makes me feel a little better. It usually makes people laugh out loud when I explain it, too. A Pre-emptive Anti-Spam TacticWhy wait to get spammed, when you can see them coming in news.admin.net-abuse.misc? Let the spammers know in advance that they will be charged (insert dollar amount here) if they send you any junk mail. Additional references Spam and Anonymous Remailing Services Damien Lucifer (ncognito at gate.net) operates an anonymous remailing service. He's put together a page covering spam and remailers, including how to get a remailer to stop spamming you, and it is my pleasure to host this page for him. mail bombing For advanced spam-fighters only. Can concerted emailbombing be employed as a legitimate spam-fighting tactic? Pros, cons, and related issues. About Junk Email Some of the hows and whys of junk email, and tactics you can use to help rid yourself of it. A press release from MCI ...with information about their anti-spam policies. See also their online policy statement. Note that MCI's seriousness about these statements has been severely questioned in light of their (mis)handling of the Moneyworld/CHAG spammer. 30 days between announcing that the situation is being dealt with and finally cutting off a spammer with message-per-week spamming speed? This is pretty disgusting in light of the good press MCI got when they announced their spam policies. It's starting to look more like a PR stunt than a policy statement. I can only take comfort knowing that at least their sysadmins are aware of (and frustrated with) the situation. I must disclaim that civil legal issues may be involved in the MCI/Moneyworld dispute, so there may be things going on that the public isn't aware of. Still, for MCI not to have covered its corporate ass does not speak well of MCI's sincerity or the competence of MCI's lawyers. Outlaw Junk EMail Now! Write your legislators, ask them to expand the TCPA to include junk email! Note that as the law is currently written, it is unlikely to be applicable to email. Fighting Junk Email" More information about junk email and related issues. Includes pointers to mechanical tactics for dealing with junk email. Spam FAQ Everything you never wanted to know about net spamming. Get that spammer!Webified TCP/IP tools to aid in the fight against spam. Litigation to the rescue? Use of the Telephone Consumer Protection Act of 1991 (47 U.S.C. sec 227) to nail junk emails. The case described was settled out of court, but the ideas is intriguing. This commentary, written by a lawyer, does not seem optistic about applying the TCPA directly to junk email, but doesn't rule out the possibility, either. Litigation to the rescue! $500 fines for junk mail via the courts. Sounds like promising tactic for dealing with intra-USA spammings. Some commentary on this law was posted to usenet a while back. The U.S. Postal Service on Chain Letters Contrary to what the make.money.fast crowd would have you believe, these scams are illegal. See the aforelinked page for details, and and consider talking to the appropriate postal inspector as well. The Better Business Bureau These folks will be happy to be notified of 'improper selling practices' via the aforelinked form. Anti-Spam lists This is a relatively new phenomenon. People are starting to offer the 'service' of collecting lists of addresses of folks who do not want to get spam. I think this is a bad idea, since it attempts to legitimize junk email, by implying that if an email address is not on the list, it's prefectly OK to send junk email. The other problem with this idea is that there are going to be several of them, and no junkmailer is going to filter their list using each "service." Thus, it will be up to the recipients to track down all of the "services." Currently there are at least three running. One is at http://dm1.com/Epreference/epref.html, one is at http://www.kenjen.com/nospam, and I don't have an URL for the last - it was sent to me via unsolicited email, naturally. Terms of Service and Acceptable usage policies Most Internet service providers require that their customers agree to a set of terms of service (TOS) or an acceptable usage policy (AUP). A random sampling: Mindspring's policy, Primenet's AUP, MCI's spamming policy, and the terms and conditions for my own ISP, Northwest Nexus (a.k.a. halcyon.com). I should note that while Northwest Nexus doesn't describe spamming in their terms of service, they have booted more than one spammer in the past. It surprises me greatly that they aren't explicit about this in their published terms and conditions. A spamhandling robot This is very "under construction," but worth mentioning anyhow. I'm putting together some perl code to automate the spam-handling process. Common flavors of net.spam The MAKE.MONEY.FAST scheme A direct descendant of the chain letters of old, this is the pyramid scam of the information age... A quick look at the mathematics behind the idea will expose the scam. Phone-sex cretins They post a couple of lines of text-mode heavy breathing, and usually a 1-800 number that you're invited to call. Call the 1-800 number. Really. It costs them money every time you do! They make their money via the 1-900 number that they ask you to call next. So just call the 1-800 number again. And again. And again. [Fighting Spam] : [Graffiti] : [Home] : [Limericks] : [Linkage] Don't just browse here, say something! Speak your mind in this space here: The true beauty of Usenet is the way it allows free communication. You can be rich/poor/ugly/ religious/atheist or a member of any race/religion or be young/old... That's the wonder - everyone can talk to one another and share ideas. Then spam comes along. It fills up newsgroups with so much noise that no one reads it any more. That wondrous method of communication has been lost. That's why I hate spam. You just don't get it, do you? No, deleting one piece of email doesn't take much. Then again, neither does appealing to a system administrator to have the spammer shut down. Two or three bits of junk a day really is something I can live with, but I don't want to. So why should I? Two or three bits of trash by the roadside won't mean the end of the world. Tossing empty cans out the window costs less than having your trash hauled away - what a great opportunity to save money! If litter were acceptable, a public beach would be no place to spend an afternoon. Postal mail costs the sender with each mailing. This keeps junk postal mail to tolerable levels. EMail costs the sender maybe $20/month, period. Are you so fucking stupid that you don't realize what a cesspool the net would be if this were allowed to grow unchecked? -NW People complain about spam and mass E-mailers. But my question is: what's the big deal? Does it REALLY take THAT much PRECIOUS time out of your day to click and delete a piece of E-mail? I think that the people complaining about others taking advantage of an excellent business opportunity ought to just relax a bit. And just HOW does it COST you to deal with SPAM? With ISP's dropping access prices and providing unlimited access to the internet, how could it possibly COST someone to get an E-mail message? I think you people really need to just kick back and relax already. Geeze, if it wasn't SPAM what else would you find to complain about? Spam isn't about content, spam is about quantity and cost shifting. TV spam would be the same ad on every channel at the same time. Print spam would be junk mail sent postage due or charge-on-delivery. With the ads on TV and in newspapers, the advertisers pay the expenses associated with publishing their ads. With net spam, the recipients pay the expenses associated with carrying the ads. That is the key difference. The costs of ads in traditional media help to support the very media that deliver the ads. With net.spam, there are no costs, and the ads just serve to sap the medium. All you need is a free trial account (AOL, interramp, or earthlink, etc are famous for this), and you can broadcast a huge amount of spam before anyone notices. Or, you can pay for an account with MCI, and broadcast huge amounts of spam for 30 days after the sysadmins realize what's going on. -NW Net-based spam is not the only form of spam. There is spam in print and spam in TV advertising. Wouldn't you say every Calvin Klein ad on TV, magazines or billboards is spam? How about Budweiser, Lite beer, and McDonalds commercials. If you see any type of advertising that offends your senses, you should feel free to boycott the products, ask your friends to boycott the products, etc. If the company has an 800 number or web site, let them know that you find their advertising offensive. I am really, really, REALLY tired of being solicited to buy things whenever I log on to my computer. I mean, I pay for the phone line, the software, the hardware, the accounts and my time is worth money as well. I get a LOT of e-mail and a SIZEABLE portion of it is junk e-mail. When I read news, about 10% of it is junk e-mail; more if it is a small newsgroup. I want to know what uninformed idiot is selling my address, or where these people are GETTING it. I have never bought anything over the computer. I have bounced unsolicited junk back to the people who send it. (I love how righteously indignant these people are: they send you mail and expect you to buy something from them and when you fail to perform as expected with joy and gratitude...if you should, in fact, protest them wasting your time and resources...they get downright rude and abusive. The presumptuousness of it just really annoys me.) The capper is that I did some artwork for the anti-Canter- and-Siegel "Green Card Lawyers" tees Joel Furr was offering a while ago. The ultimate clue that I am not interested in spam of any sort, but how could they know? It's just amusing. Let it be known that I am not a test market, nor will I buy any of your crap, be it face cream, thigh cream, green cards, stock options, modems, books, herbs, or the golden goose itself. Not interested. I don't know you, I have no reason to trust you, and you are spamming MY mailbox and expecting ME to reward this with money. No, thank you. I've been online for more than 5 years, and I really long for the "good old days" before the Net was "cool". There ya go. My tuppence. Now...where do I go to put my name on the "Don't Send This Person Crap Mail" list? (Laugh) SPAM is only going to go away if we make sure companies learn that SPAMming doesn't get costumers to buy thier products and it does more to stop potential costumers from buying thier products. I've heard a couple of different conflicting stories about the origins of the use of the word spam in this context. The most popular version suggests that is was inspired by the Monty Python skit in which virtually every item on some restaurant's menu includes spam in some form or other. The waiter's recitation of the menu becomes unintelligible except for '...and spam, spam with..., spam salad, ...with spam, spam mixed with..." and so on. It really picks up when the Vikings start chanting "spam-spam spam, spam, spam-spam spam, spam...." ad nauseum. This is what the net would be like if this stuff was allowed to continue unchecked. If that's not a horrifying thought, maybe you should see the skit in question. My personal belief is that geeks (who make up much of the 'net community (myself included), much of Monty Python's audience, and probably most of Monty Python's cast) just tend to use the word spam when more appropriate words don't come to mind readily. For no particularly good reason, it really stuck this time. -NW Due to popular demand, I've expanded the first couple of paragraphs to better explain what spam is and why it's such a pain in the ass. Personally, I'm getting two to five unsolicited email messages every week. This is up from approximately zero unsolicited messages per week a few years ago when I first started using the Internet and Usenet. It's a trend that has been steadily increa sing, especially for the last year or two. It's a trend that really really worries me. It's a trend that is, worst of all, wasting my time! -NW I an working on a Usenet news server designed to filter spam from a news feed and quietly drop it. Announcements in due course (next few months) but if anyone wants to help with other platforms and live feed debugging please mail me. Wow! Thanks for the help. I'll certainly become an anti-spam activist and use your information to good effect. I don't get it! What is SPAM? Pardon my ignorance but what does "SPAM"ming mean? "SICK PEOPLE AGAINST MAIL"??? For the Spammers that have a web page I visit it with a macro every time that I leave my system idle while connected for more then 5 min. This way at least I'm sucking down their site and causing their site to slow down so those that are interest get bored waiting for an over taxed server to show them just what They get for "ONLY $9.99 A MONTH!!!!" and leave with out buying. The only reason they have the site is to make money. No Money, No Site, No Spam. Very nice -- I like the idea of dialing the 800 number in the ad. One might wish to be sure to mention (if there's a message taker or, even better, a human at the other end) that you saw their ad in (insert newsgroup here) -- and no, you're not interested in buying anything, you just wanted to see what they had. Unfortunately, every time you call the 800 number, chances are you're also adding your own phone number to a database that will result in your receiving "junk phone calls" on a variety of useless subjects. Solution? Make the calls from a pay phone, ideally one that doesn't accept incoming calls. Isn't spam remarkably like the countless hours of television (including but not limited to advertisements) that most of us watched in our childhoods? And to think, whoever controls the information going to the youth of the nation controls the future of the nation. Greedy, stupid corporations played a central role in molding us and shaping our opinions, attitudes, and perspectives. Something to think about, perhaps... [Fighting Spam] : [Graffiti] : [Home] : [Limericks] : [Linkage] n a t e s c a p e @ m e t a r e a l i t y . c o m This page last updated Aug 21 Comments last updated Aug 22 From dsmith at prairienet.org Sat Aug 24 22:43:28 1996 From: dsmith at prairienet.org (David E. Smith) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:43:28 +0800 Subject: Message Body Suppressed... Message-ID: <199608250312.WAA05286@bluestem.prairienet.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sat Aug 24 22:16:12 1996 > ----- Message body suppressed ----- > > --TAA17492.840768149/tera.mcom.com-- > > > > This is getting annoying. Could one of our resident Netscape employees take a look into this one and see what's happening? dave - ----- David E. Smith, P O Box 324, Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702 dsmith at prairienet.org http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith send mail with subject of "send pgp-key" for my PGP public key "The only reason you're still alive is because someone has decided to let you live." - Nicole Blackman/KMFDM, "Apathy" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMh/FfzVTwUKWHSsJAQFLSwf/QVlIDuTj8Q3hC+hqyl0mLPbYkO82+1f5 FoVukNpdsc/2OQ0+jAD3MjcHJO/yEIVW45+4P6wAutWdsvU5t61gCz3HUblCLC2t tO84wNBNGVRI6d3HpEE7aKRAUAfmqOcv6YcUx5eXfjRJrXdXE0k5EzuUzyQgIBbI B4a4P6WHloq5WtCIlmbt/J3voMIE4b/y/8kbDl1l9RziwRGX6SkYRK3i9v9YTcgl eWHT8uMoI6/GDjxzuEvn1ZUcvkIofh7mLXvP+H5DrSzNpv3knkfKBa5ce9TOkX3o RFa2bHgWXWMtkiTVD2HLpEZ0SaxWahxABavllg1lzzuiE/+Sli/BKA== =TV20 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Majordomo at toad.com Mon Aug 26 03:33:45 1996 From: Majordomo at toad.com (Majordomo at toad.com) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 18:33:45 +0800 Subject: Your Majordomo request results Message-ID: <199608261033.DAA02112@toad.com> -- Your request of Majordomo was: >>>> subscribe cypherpunks **** Address already subscribed to cypherpunks Your request of Majordomo was: >>>> end END OF COMMANDS From hugh at ecotone.toad.com Mon Aug 26 04:07:46 1996 From: hugh at ecotone.toad.com (Hugh Daniel) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:07:46 +0800 Subject: ADMIN: The list was off for a day Message-ID: <199608260857.BAA22202@ecotone.toad.com> The cypherpunks at toad.com list was turned off for just over a day to keep a set of bogus messages off of the list. Many thanks go to John Gilmore for fixing the problem. The next message will be a (almost) digest of the 17 messages that were not passed on in real time to the list. Think of it as a vacation. ||ugh Daniel Majordomo Owner & Potty Trainer hugh at toad.com From mark at unicorn.com Mon Aug 26 04:15:02 1996 From: mark at unicorn.com (Rev. Mark Grant) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:15:02 +0800 Subject: MUD anyone? Message-ID: Would anyone out there be interested in helping set up a crypto-anarcho-capitalist MUD to play around with some of the social aspects of crypto-anarchy and anarcho-capitalism? I can probably hack together a basic lpmud in a month or two if someone has a machine which it could run on and which could run a mailing list for those involved. On the software front, there's a demo of version 0.86 of Privtool on utopia.hacktic.nl in /pub/replay/pub/PGP/unix (or something like that), and my mailbot is also on there somewhere. Amongst other things that allows you to remotely maintain Web pages by sending PGP-signed email (actually, PGP-encrypted would probably also work if you don't mind leaving a secret key on the system with no passphrase). Doesn't yet protect against replay attacks and there are a few known bugs but it's only an Alpha. If anyone wants to use it for real I can mail you a patch for the worst problems. Finally, does anyone outside the US have the last few months of the list available for ftp? I'd like to catch up on what I've missed since I unsubscribed and using the Web archive is far too slow and expensive. Please send replies to me directly as I'm travelling and consequently off the list. Looks like I'll be on a mad bus trip round New Zealand for most of next month so Net access will be erratic. Mark |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| |Reverend Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C. EMAIL: mark at unicorn.com | |WWW: http://www.c2.org/~mark MAILBOT: bot at unicorn.com | |Approximate Current Location: Melbourne, Australia | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 26 05:15:05 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:15:05 +0800 Subject: [US POLITICS] Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA Message-ID: <199608260837.BAA29555@cygnus.com> At 01:37 AM 8/25/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: >Dole says he would fix the ITAR problem, but try to keep something like >CDA. >Clinton is keeping ITAR and signed CDA. But not having the religious >right he might soften on CDA. Clinton is, of course, not a liberal. Censorship doesn't bother him much. (He's a friendly statist who likes to control your money more than your life, so he might occasionally feel a twinge of guilt, but not enough to change policies, and only if the polls are suggesting that guilt would be a useful PR move.) Dole, on the other hand, stands for being in his party longer than anyone else, doing a competent job of insider coordination, and keeping Big Agribusiness happy. His speechwriters are mildly opposed to free trade, but like US exports. Crypto software is not a product of Archer Daniels Midland, Supermarket to the World, but if the polls suggest that it's as popular as corn oil, he'll have his speechwriters write a speech in favor of it. Ross Perot's gonna get together a team of experts to decide on it, though if we allow those Canadians to get American Encryption Technology before we throw out NAFTA, there's gonna be a giant sucking sound as all our cryptography business gets hoovered up to the Frozen North. Ralph Nader knows that Clipper is unsafe at any speed, and would certainly allow open public inquiry into the military-industrial complex's encryption policy-making process, though any technological exports would require an environmental impact statement, 2% of sales would be required to be on solar-powered low-emission computing equipment, and foreign cryptographic developers would have to be paid a living wage. Dr. John Hagelin (no, not _that_ Hagelin) knows that mathematics operates in harmony with Natural Law, and his party will introduce scientifically proven techniques for reducing the entropy level of messages, and eliminating the stress and paranoia that lead people to hide the content of their messages. Further more, special teams of Sidhi(tm)-trained technicians will provide telepathic transmission for areas with high levels of stress, which has been shown to reduce conflict when only 1% of the telephone callers are accessed using these Scientifically Proven Techniques. Bring an offering of fruit and flowers to the polls. The Socialist Worker's Party statement will be available as soon as the Teamsters election results allow appointment of a bargaining unit for the Bit Twiddlers, Left Shifters, and Table Look-up locals to negotiate protocols with network management, and categorically refuses the counter-revolutionary demands for EXclusive Or which the multi-national corporations intend to impose on the work force. ..... As you might have guessed, I'm still planning to vote Libertarian :-) Free minds, free markets, free speech, and I guess Harry Browne will do as good a job as any candidate we've had in a while. Vice-presidential candidate Jo Jorgenson has run her own software business for a while. ...... However, if you're tired of the Lesser of N evils, Cthulu's export policy is that you can't escape anyway, and your puny mortal lives will be absorbed along with his morning coffee. Your encryption technology is futile against the Elder Ghods, and the arcane formulas in the Cyphernomicon of that mad physicist Tim The Enchanter may summon spirits from the vasty deep, but no secrets are safe from Nyarla-S-Ahothep who knows all and sees all. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From apache at quux.apana.org.au Mon Aug 26 07:09:54 1996 From: apache at quux.apana.org.au (Charles Senescall) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:09:54 +0800 Subject: Is this list dead? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nothing through here in the last 24 hours. -- .////. .// Charles Senescall apache at quux.apana.org.au o:::::::::/// Fuck TEL$TRA >::::::::::\\\ Finger me for PGP PUBKEY Brisbane AUSTRALIA '\\\\\' \\ http://quux.apana.org.au/~apache/ From hugh at ecotone.toad.com Mon Aug 26 07:14:39 1996 From: hugh at ecotone.toad.com (Hugh Daniel) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:14:39 +0800 Subject: DIGEST: 17 messages from the last day Message-ID: <199608260905.CAA22219@ecotone.toad.com> >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 00:43:46 1996 Received: from tera.mcom.com (tera.netscape.com [205.217.237.94]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA17288 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 00:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news at localhost) by tera.mcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA04984; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 00:46:00 -0700 To: cypherpunks at toad.com Path: usenet From: Tom Weinstein Newsgroups: mcom.list.cypherpunks Subject: Re: Weird "Suppression" messages Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 00:43:53 -0700 Organization: Netscape Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <32200439.41C6 at netscape.com> References: <3.0b11.32.19960823232429.00d969ec at mail.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ammodump.mcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; U; IRIX 5.3 IP22) Alan Olsen wrote: > > At 10:36 PM 8/23/96 -0700, Z.B. wrote: >>On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Alan Olsen wrote: >> >>> At 10:54 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >>> > ----- Message body suppressed ----- >>> > >>> >--SAA08114.840765294/tera.mcom.com-- >>> >>> This is bizzare. I have gotten three messages with this message. >>> >>> Is someone at Netscape canceling messages? (mcom.com is the old >>> domain name >>> of Netscape.) >>> >>> Anyone have any ideas on this? >> >> I don't have a clue what it is, but it's sure pissing me off. I've >> gotten about 15 or so of these messages in the past two hours. If >> it's an honest error, then someone better fix it real fast; if some >> loser is jerking us around, ...... > > Some list redirector of somesort has gone wonky at Netscape. (Take a > look at the headers if you do not believe me. They are originating > off of some internal lists at mcom.com, the original Netscape domain.) > > Cypherpunks is not the only list effected by this. I am getting these > weird messages on wwwsecurity as well. > > Since it is Friday, I expect that this will be with us until someone > gets in the office on Monday. We have a gateway here that gateways mailing lists into newsgroups and sends posts back out to the mailing lists. There was a problem with it which caused these strange suppression messages. I got the person responsible to come in and fix it, so there should be no more messages like that, I hope. -- You should only break rules of style if you can | Tom Weinstein coherently explain what you gain by so doing. | tomw at netscape.com >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 02:04:41 1996 Received: from irc.io-online.com ([206.245.244.5]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA18654 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 02:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from IO-ONLINE.COM ([206.245.244.154]) by irc.io-online.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 285-17715) with SMTP id AAA47; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 02:05:45 -0700 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) To: "cypherpunks at toad.com" , "William H. Geiger III" Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 02:05:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Chris Adams" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Chris Adams's Registered PMMail 1.52 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <19960825090543625.AAA47 at IO-ONLINE.COM> On Sat, 24 Aug 96 03:47:47 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: >No I have to dissagree. Who I send mail to or whom I receive mail from is >no-ones business. I for one have no intention of "signing up" or >"regestering" with any mail server. I most certainally want to be the one >to decide what mail I receive or do not receive, not someone elses idea of >what I should receive. What I'd prefer is a configurable POP server for an ISP - something that you could set to, say, only send a brief header and 1st couple lines of any message that is either over a certain size, repeated, or passed the limit for messages from a given host. So you could set certain people to have their messages pass directly through, something like cypherpunks might get more and all others could be limited to something like 10/day. Have all of this configured right, as well has host-end filtering/rejecting and such tasks would be done with the high bandwidth a host has, as opposed to your average dialup link. >Sorry but I will not be made a sheep for the "protection" from spam. baah >baah Baah humbug! (And I agree fully!) / If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. / Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp / Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" / Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 / Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 03:21:23 1996 Received: from pop1.jmb.bah.com (pop1.jmb.bah.com [156.80.9.161]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA19560; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 03:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crypto-1.bah.com ([156.80.2.177]) by pop1.jmb.bah.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA26790; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 06:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by crypto-1.bah.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BB924D.9E549120 at crypto-1.bah.com>; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 06:21:14 -0000 Message-ID: <01BB924D.9E549120 at crypto-1.bah.com> From: Charley Sparks To: "'cypherpunks at toad.com'" Cc: "'cypherpunk at toad.com'" Subject: Need the majordomo commands for cypherpunk Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 06:21:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- the heading says it all.... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.9 iQCXAgUBMiA3KOJ+JZd/Y4yVAQHaJQQMC4i3iPpinbyMfQ8x6wOrQEFYFg7kt1Qf trmMt4nwNSwy3ZV2EAS/ohm9BMz9PWfiAvetcpyPf2QZxQS9ZBqF69TqmpRkX7Xe ke6Cz4GqYy51MM29WuE1nvPRSELHvrsubq9A1U2+QeArOC6sw6mVZFMFClP+I2NI q9NH9sjEljgXTw== =nFIP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 05:28:39 1996 Received: from dns1.noc.best.net (root at dns1.noc.best.net [206.86.8.69]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA22362 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jamesd.vip.best.com (jamesd.vip.best.com [204.156.153.125]) by dns1.noc.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id FAA21914; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:29:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199608251229.FAA21914 at dns1.noc.best.net> X-Sender: jamesd at best.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 17:06:32 -0700 To: Vincent Cate , cypherpunks at toad.com From: "James A. Donald" Subject: Re: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA At 01:37 AM 8/25/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: > So it seems Dole is the better vote. Is this important enough to many > cypherpunks to actually determine their vote? Dole stands for nothing, and Clinton stands for everything. Any resemblance between their election platforms and what they will actually do when in office is purely coincidental. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 05:41:56 1996 Received: from tipper.oit.unc.edu (tipper.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.85]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA22601 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hilly.oit.unc.edu (cnc019039.concentric.net [206.173.35.39]) by tipper.oit.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA22997 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:42:42 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:42:43 -0400 () From: Simon Spero To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: -- Message body depressed -- Message-ID: X-X-Sender: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Life. Don't talk to me about Life. The first 100 spams were the worst. The second 100 spams were the worst as well. After that I went into a bit of decline. >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 06:06:43 1996 Received: from osceola.gate.net (root at osceola.gate.net [199.227.0.18]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA23105 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 06:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miafl2-30.gate.net (miafl2-30.gate.net [199.227.2.157]) by osceola.gate.net (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA97272 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:07:16 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:07:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199608251307.JAA97272 at osceola.gate.net> From: Jim Ray To: cypherpunks at toad.com X-Priority: Normal Subject: Re: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA X-Mailer: Pronto Secure [Ver 1.05] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgprequest: signed -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sun Aug 25 09:06:51 1996 Vincent Cate wrote: > Dole says he would fix the ITAR problem, but try to keep something like > CDA. He would say anything to get elected. > Clinton is keeping ITAR and signed CDA. But not having the religious > right he might soften on CDA. Lame ducks don't have to soften, on anything. That's what's fun about being a lame duck. > The courts seem to be throwing out CDA much faster than ITAR (some fast > track to the supreme court built into the law). It also seems like > ITAR > is the more important thing to fix (it is easier to move pornography > etc > out of the US than major software companies). > > So it seems Dole is the better vote. Is this important enough to many > cypherpunks to actually determine their vote? If the Republican candidate had been Forbes, there might have been a "don't let the great be the enemy of the good" argument against voting Libertarian. As it stands now, Dole is, at best, arguably the "lesser of 2 evils," which still comes out evil in my book. As the designated partisan Libertarian on the list, I urge all cypherpunks to vote their consciences and pick Harry Browne and Jo Jorgensen. The mere fact that the media is [grudgingly] covering us suggests we are finally doing something right, and Harry is winning many Internet polls despite much fawning, hopeful coverage for the big-eared billionaire hypocrite stealth-candidate, who has no position but certainly would enjoy having the TLAs investigate his enemies. I fully accept that it is likely Dole or Clinton will win, but I think it will fill an important cypherpunk goal if the Libertarian Party candidates get a vote large enough to be the margin of victory, and I will be very proud of my vote, no matter who wins this election. Vote your consciences for your own sake, and the sake of the children who will inherit the debt of the irresponsible statists in power now. JMR Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy "'Filegate' is starting to make _Ed_ _Meese_ look ethical." -- me Defeat the Duopoly! Vote "NOTA," not Slick/Dull in November. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray C Ross Perot is now on welfare. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMiBP8m1lp8bpvW01AQFIJAQAlXsJF6cbghTbNe026MYY2UmG6BWPHeUe clf8KSRdT3Fxr/U5juo9FhroDmKSverVkl7ReCQ9Vfxcw0bBdhopJYvkVzB4AOeh 8EMIQnuUGjtPydJvf1pcMUu+C2j7HfhPvI33P3q0v7iG9bb5o6eIzoTMifsc1Kzk n9rakt5JoGg= =c8mZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 08:16:36 1996 Received: from netcom10.netcom.com (qut at netcom10.netcom.com [192.100.81.120]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01414 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from qut at localhost) by netcom10.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id IAA04507; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:17:22 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:17:22 -0700 From: qut at netcom.com (Skipp OBC) Message-Id: <199608251517.IAA04507 at netcom10.netcom.com> To: Thetapunks Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,can.politics,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Where have all the racists gone? Griswold, LA Times story References: <4vo52r$or2 at freenet-news.carleton.ca> X-No-Archive: yes In rcgraves at ix.netcom.com (Skippy) writes: ! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ! ! In article <4vo52r$or2 at freenet-news.carleton.ca>, ! ai433 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow) wrote: ! ! > So, where *is* Les Griswold? Readers are invited to speculate. ! ! I don't need to. ! ! Racists come, racists go. Milton Kleim, George Graves, Ron Schoedel, and ! Les Griswold are all out of the business. The Nazi troller who dedicates ! himself to "The Movement" for life is rare. Human beings have large, ! well-developed brains. This enables us to use tools, read, write, speak, ! and see through the appeal of Nazism. Only the real psychopaths (Metzger), ! charlatans in it for the money (Zundel), and criminals (Burdi, Droege, ! Mathews) stick with "The Movement" once they understand what it's really ! about. ! ! [Yes, I'm aware that things are a bit more serious and complex in real ! life, but I do think it's fine to gloat now, when the "Net.Nazis" are so ! few and disorganized that their #1 troller, qut at netcom.com, is believed to ! be an anti-racist parodying them.] The movement must learn to deal with these situations. ! Another bit of good news, and perhaps an inspiration for those few racists ! still reading alt.politics.white-power: ! ! "Ex-Skinhead breaks from a racist past" ! San Jose Mercury News, August 19, 1986, page 3B. ! Reprint of a story from the Los Angeles Times. ! ! LOS ANGELES -- Even among his fellow skinheads, Tom Leyden stood out as an ! angry warrior. ! ! Leyden recalls prowling the streets at night, pummeling "blacks, Hispanics ! and longhairs" with his steel-toed boots. In the Marines, he kept a copy ! of Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" next to his bunk. At home, he hung a Nazi ! flag over the baby's crib. ! ! Leyden, 30, might seem like a dubious candidate to lead a crusade against ! white supremacists. But this tattooed high school dropout has broken with ! his racist past and joined ranks with an unlikely ally -- the Simon ! Wiesenthal Center. ! ! It is a rare and unexpected alliance. ! ! Leyden is the first skinhead to voluntarily lend his expertise to the ! Wiesenthal Center since it opened in Los Angeles 19 years ago. Skeptical ! leaders of the center -- a watchdog organization that fights anti-Semitism ! and other forms of prejudice -- greeted his arrival last month with ! suspicion. They wondered whether he was a spy. ! ! But Leyden offered inside information about neo-Nazi methods: how they ! recruit young members by inciting racial violence on school campuses and ! by distributing music that preaches the death of Jews, blacks and other ! groups. ! ! He also discounted his disillusionment with a movement that labeled his ! own mother inferior because she was handicapped. He spoke out about the ! angst of watching his sons -- ages 4 and 2 -- grow up as hatemongers ! saluting the Nazi and Confederate flags. ! ! And he recounted his decision to leave his wife of six years for a chance ! to redeem himself. ! ! "I got the impression that this was a person who has had a profound change ! of heart and who is willing to tell the world, 'I was wrong,'"" recalled ! Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Wiesenthal Center's founder. "He is saying, ! 'Everything I've stood for in the last decade was for nothing.' That's ! admitting to a life's mistake." ! ! Now the Wiesenthal Center and Leyden are putting his firsthand knowledge ! of neo-Nazi activities to work -- a plan that has earned Leyden a ! "traitor" label among former skinhead associates. ! ! The center has arranged for Leyden to address a national hate conference ! in Miami in October. Leyden is also scheduled to speak about hate groups ! in the military during an upcoming visit to Fort Bragg, the North Carolina ! Army base where swastikas were found last month painted on the doors of ! rooms occupied by white soldiers. ! ! Leyden's family now fears for its safety. He said late-night callers ! frequently hang up or leave obscene messages. ! ! But Leyden refuses to let the threats scare him. ! ! "I think Tom has already removed the tattoos inside," said Rabbi Abraham ! Cooper, associate dean at the Wiesenthal Center. "He's made some really ! severe errors. But he has my respect, which is the last thing I thought ! I'd be saying about someone who spent years in the skinhead movement." ! ! - 30 - ! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- ! Version: 2.6.2 ! ! iQBVAwUBMh/065NcNyVVy0jxAQESeQH+M9A1vU5hxZnOID7gNAWkmQabQTwe9uv/ ! LWETIkkWQoHqnEYlcjtgxC1ayDu1xBC0rEpvA/MPL/LauCkrxRbaAw== ! =C7nU ! -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ! ! -rich ! http://www.anonymizer.com:8080/http://www.c2.org/~rich/ Easy come, easy go. -- I marvel at the resilience of the white people. Their best characteristic is their desire to learn. No other people has such an obsession with the intellect. >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 08:46:32 1996 Received: from wichita.fn.net (root at wichita.fn.net [204.233.71.1]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03380 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steve.shelby.com (mark108.fn.net [204.233.108.131]) by wichita.fn.net (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA13490 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 10:47:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960825144031.006d5e80 at mail.fn.net> X-Sender: sshelby at mail.fn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 10:40:31 -0400 To: cypherpunks at toad.com From: Steve Shelby Subject: Posting HTML. When posting an article that was originally HTML, perhaps you could save it as a text instead? Makes it a little easier to read. Thanks >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 08:56:21 1996 Received: from mail-1.mail.demon.net (mail-1.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.211]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04034 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:57:07 -0700 (PDT) From: paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by mail-1.mail.demon.net id ag08175; 25 Aug 96 16:53 BST Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk ([158.152.120.223]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa17201; 25 Aug 96 16:52 +0100 Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk by fatmans.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA840935122 ; Sun, 25 Aug 96 01:05:22 +0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 01:05:21 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: subscribe cypherpunks Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Message-ID: <840988336.17201.0 at fatmans.demon.co.uk> SUBSCRIBE cypherpunks paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul at fatmans.demon.co.uk "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 12:13:53 1996 Received: from laguna.arc.unm.edu (laguna.arc.unm.edu [198.59.173.7]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA16785 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alb-nm4-03.ix.netcom.com (finite at alb-nm4-03.ix.netcom.com [206.214.146.67]) by laguna.arc.unm.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01875 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:14:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960825191447.0b77e912 at arc.unm.edu> X-Sender: drosoff at arc.unm.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:14:47 -0600 To: cypherpunks at toad.com From: David Rosoff Subject: You have your papers, please? [off-topic] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Today, I returned to school, a bright shiny venture into my junior year. Only slightly dampened by the closing of campuses - well, I should explain. High school campuses have typically been "open" here in Albuquerque, which to put it simply means that school is dismissed for lunch and opens again after it. But, in the traditional school style, that is, punishing the many for the crimes of the few, the politically-controlled and very partisan school board decided last year to close them, which would of course stop all the fights and robberies and graffiti during the noon hour, and not push it up two hours at all. Of course. This is rather drastic, so in an atypical show of clemency the people who do things to me for my own good decided to phase it in. Thus it affects me not at all - or so I thought. So my mood today wasn't really affected by this violation of rights, because I had my mind on other things. Until I was informed that I must carry my school-issued picture ID that is barely recognizable as human at all times, because at any time on campus a Gestapo agent disguised as a "campus aide" could demand to make sure that my papers were in order. When going to lunch I was carded to leave campus. Taking out my anger on someone who probably didn't deserve it, I said, "Are my papers in order, mein Fuehrer?" My, my, if looks could kill. The disturbing thing is that while I know it really is not a big deal to have to carry a dumb school ID so that bad rules can be enforced, no one around me understood why I was upset. I am worried that happenings of this sort will give Big Brother an opening for universal IDs and internal passports. No one will question it because they've been doing it their whole lives. And of course, anyone who does object must be a pervert, criminal, or other social deviant. =============================================================================== David Rosoff (nihongo ga sukoshi dekiru) ---------------> drosoff at arc.unm.edu PGP public key 0xD37692F9 -----> finger drosoff at acoma.arc.unm.edu or keyservers 0xD37692F9 Key fingerprint = 25 7D AA 01 85 41 43 89 50 5A 33 76 F1 F1 99 67 Do you know who's reading your email? ---> http://www.arc.unm.edu/~drosoff/pgp/ Is it a forgery? --- I have PGP signed all email and news posts since May 1996. =============================================================================== "Your Honor, I have been following this person's movements for quite some time, and I can prove that he is in possession of secret government underwear." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMhkizhguzHDTdpL5AQHGTwQAq2bYziwWjHsTm2WgxBpN6ch8vZcpVkRQ oKfR1XfshzObsvNup4Hr5q1LsgWXef8nb1Br49TSGj4u4GBWrfzuowftfDkem5JN YXpIX6QSsZeXKMMW06S7MnOM6qL5u83s8SKCS+amnpVEQcxhFNXkb8CMo0+6Kwid NZwSgwjtgYU= =c1Tj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 13:19:48 1996 Received: from mailhost1.primenet.com (mailhost1.primenet.com [206.165.5.51]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18464 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from primenet.com (root at usr06.primenet.com [206.165.5.106]) by mailhost1.primenet.com (8.7.5/8.7.1) with ESMTP id NAA00959 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:20:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from heavily.censored.org (heavily.censored.org [206.165.50.96]) by primenet.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id NAA25762 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:07:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960825201159.232fec0e at primenet.com> X-Sender: carolab at primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 15:11:59 -0500 To: cypherpunks at toad.com From: Censored Girls Anonymous Subject: Re: Ruritania I thank all of you for your fine detective work. I found this on the tsmenace list without an attribute. It was a strange place for it, as it was cypherpunk in content. But as it applies anywhere, (and the using PGP on a political activist list project continues), at least they are making some progress in their thinking. The article drew no flames whatsoever. I will Mr. Perry, happily inform the tsmenace list (tsmenace at zoom.com) who the originator of the article is. Love Always, Carol Anne At 01:32 PM 8/24/96 -0400, you wrote: >> The Legend of Ruritania > technology had been developed, and in this new age of wood, everyone in >When people repost my writing, I prefer that they leave some >indication on that I wrote it. > >Perry > > Member Internet Society - Certified BETSI Programmer - Webmistress *********************************************************************** Carol Anne Braddock (cab8) carolann at censored.org 206.42.112.96 My Homepage The Cyberdoc *********************************************************************** ------------------ PGP.ZIP Part [017/713] ------------------- M8H,),S$8G>&.WP(8IRA`-M['+`Q%&_C"">5-F%LX@<_Q$;*P'',Q$Z/AA[8M MF=O0H+*%(-S%&>S%+FS& http://dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/export/ >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 14:46:45 1996 Received: from server.multipro.com (root at server.multipro.com [204.253.122.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA20422 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 14:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (s5.pm.crossville.multipro.com [207.78.144.15]) by server.multipro.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA09138 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:35:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199608252135.QAA09138 at server.multipro.com> X-Sender: nick at mail.multipro.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:49:12 -0500 To: cypherpunks at toad.com From: Nick West Subject: URL for Browne and crypto "Stop the Browne Out!" now has a page that compares Harry Browne to Clinton & Dole on the subject of digital privacy. The URL is http://home.connectnet.com/qqq/crypto/ . They have various links and a logo you can add to your web site to link to the page. Nick West nick at multipro.com Member of the National Wild Turkey Federation and The Libertarian Party of Tennessee http://members.tripod.com/~NWest/index.html PGP Fingerprint= F9 F7 92 D9 D3 0B 56 3E FA 2A 78 59 27 32 7D 6F Public key available on request. >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 16:05:04 1996 Received: from dns2.noc.best.net (dns2.noc.best.net [206.86.0.21]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22928 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sophi.best.com (sophi.vip.best.com [206.86.81.52]) by dns2.noc.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA05562; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:05:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199608252305.QAA05562 at dns2.noc.best.net> From: "Greg Kucharo" To: "Vincent Cate" , Subject: Re: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:07:53 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does it matter? Shound't the fight here be in the courts and Congress as opposed to the President? The problem here is a constant one. If you vote Republican, it opens the door for less stringent economic laws but greater restriction on social freedoms. The Democrats are tradtionaly the opposite. It's like the Janus. They speak of countermanding viewpoints, but in the end the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There will undoubtely be watered down versions of both laws in effect. My guess is that a new ITAR style would run along the lines of current arms trafficking regulations. That means no trading yer crypto with the so-called rogue states. Impossible, but we are talking about the U.S. Government here. I have no idea how they could enforce anything like the CDA. Possibly they would promote the use of restictive services in browsers. Who knows. ---------- > From: Vincent Cate > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA > Date: Saturday, August 24, 1996 10:37 PM > > > Dole says he would fix the ITAR problem, but try to keep something like > CDA. > > Clinton is keeping ITAR and signed CDA. But not having the religious > right he might soften on CDA. > > The courts seem to be throwing out CDA much faster than ITAR (some fast > track to the supreme court built into the law). It also seems like ITAR > is the more important thing to fix (it is easier to move pornography etc > out of the US than major software companies). > > So it seems Dole is the better vote. Is this important enough to many > cypherpunks to actually determine their vote? > > -- Vince > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vincent Cate vince at offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/ > Offshore Information Services http://www.offshore.com.ai/ >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 17:17:49 1996 Received: from mstrinet.usmc.mil ([192.156.78.41]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA24560 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mstrinet.usmc.mil; Sun, 25 Aug 96 6:20:48 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 6:20:45 -24000 Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: From: Subject: Undeliverable Message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 To: Cc: Subject: Re: "----- Message body suppressed -----" Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM error codes. VNM3043: BANYAN SERVER at MAG26@2DMAW NEW RIVER VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL The message cannot be delivered because the recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of messages, as set by the system administrator. The recipient must delete some messages before any other messages can be delivered. The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 10,000. The default message limit is 1000 messages. Administrators can set message limits using the Mailbox Settings function available in the Manage User menu (MUSER). When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the user must delete some of the messages before the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages. UNDEFINED! At 1:10 AM 8/21/96, llurch at stanford.edu (Rich Graves) wrote: ! > ----- Message body suppressed ----- ! > ! ! ! Sounds good to me. Keep it up. ! ! ! --Tim May ! ! ! -- ! [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency ! Act of 1996] ! And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why ! don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll ! just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said: ! "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck." ! So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure ! enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan ! really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant ! while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he ! came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your ! brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course ! God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular ! Translation, TCM, 1996] Your sigs are better looking than his body. >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 17:33:10 1996 Received: from fat.doobie.com (remailer at fat.doobie.com [204.62.130.103]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA24941 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from remailer at localhost) by fat.doobie.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA16531 for cypherpunks at toad.com; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:34:02 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:34:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199608260034.RAA16531 at fat.doobie.com> Subject: The wisdom of the US Government To: cypherpunks at toad.com From: nobody at huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to Hacking the US Treasury web page wasn't very smart, there are much better places to hack: http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/plain/forms_pubs/expert.html Unencrypted, unauthenticated, self-extracting archive executables from America's most beloved Governmental `service'? >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 18:01:42 1996 Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [198.7.0.4]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25595 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 18:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from shabbir at localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id VAA03356; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:02:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Voters Telecommunications Watch Message-Id: <199608260102.VAA03356 at panix3.panix.com> To: cypherpunks at toad.com Errors-To: shabbir at vtw.org Subject: INFO: Democratic convention chats online! Be there! (8/25/96) ============================================================================ DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION ONLINE CHAT SCHEDULE! LIVE CHATS FROM THE CONVENTION! (DO NOT DISTRIBUTE AFTER SEPTEMBER 1, 1996) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Table of contents What's New Chat Schedule Getting Chat Software ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT'S NEW The Democratic convention's online chat program has begun! It's crucial that Netizens make net concerns a high profile issue in the online chats this year. You can do this by showing up and simply asking the right questions. Does the candidate think the Communications Decency Act is an effective method of shielding kids from material online, or parental control? Does the candidate support the use of privacy-enhancing encryption technology? Does the candidate support program such as THOMAS, that put government info in the hands of the people? If you don't ask these questions, they'll never know we care. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHAT SCHEDULE [Notably missing from this schedule are Senators Patrick J. Leahy (D-VT) and Russell Feingold (D-WI) and House member Jerrold Nadler (D-NY). All three have impeccable cyberspace credentials and we look forward to seeing them online.] All chats take place at http://ichat.dncc96.org:4080/ Monday 08/26/96 - 4:20pm CDT Governor Lawton Chiles 08/26/96 - 7:15pm CDT House Candidate Michela Alioto 08/26/96 - 10:30pm CDT Congressman Bill Richardson Tuesday 08/27/96 - 9:00am CDT Senate Candidate Houston Gordon 08/27/96 - 5:00pm CDT Congresswoman Nita Lowey Wednesday 08/28/96 - 9:00am CDT - Senate Candidate Houston Gordon 08/28/96 - 10:00am CDT - Governor Gaston Caperton 08/28/96 - 3:00pm CDT - Senator John D Rockefeller IV 08/28/96 - 4:00pm CDT - Senator John Kerry 08/28/96 - 4:30pm CDT - Senator Harry Reid 08/28/96 - 9:30pm CDT - Representative Corrine Brown Thursday 08/29/96 - 10:30am CDT - Senate Candidate Houston Gordon 08/29/96 - 2:30pm CDT - Senator Kent Conrad 08/29/96 - 3:30pm CDT - Representative Eliot Engel 08/29/96 - 6:00pm CDT - Representative Barney Frank 08/29/96 - 7:00pm CDT - Senators Boxer & Murray Don't miss this opportunity to question the newsmakers on net issues such as free speech and privacy! We have to ensure that they feel appreciated for standing up for Net issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- GETTING CHAT SOFTWARE The Democratic Convention has chosen iChat's chat software for their interface. To obtain a copy, simply follow the links from the main convention homepage at http://www.dncc96.org/ to the software section. ### ============================================================================ >From cpadmin at toad.com Sun Aug 25 18:20:16 1996 Received: from infinity.c2.org (infinity.c2.org [140.174.185.11]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25839 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 1996 18:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zirko (exit17.bluegrass.net [205.198.88.217]) by infinity.c2.org (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 18:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199608260119.SAA22964 at infinity.c2.org> From: Lou Zirko To: cypherpunks at toad.com X-Priority: Normal Subject: 128-bit MSIE X-Mailer: Pronto Secure [Ver 1.05] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgprequest: signed -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sun Aug 25 21:18:42 1996 It appears that the 128-bit download of MS Internet Explorer had disappeared from their website again. Did anyone successfully download it and if so is it archived anywhere. Thanks, Lou Zirko Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko at c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMiEJi8tPRTNbb5z9AQEKVAf+KbP/v0Yg0oTFx/PSghgApIkyMJjUkK27 mASRZvqSZzAsizxUTPuIn7qGlYpM2qQCLYYXe986zYP39sDaGEdhTpNxzixa2XN4 k+ZmuklUFPWPUwRbhxSTrjFiId38MhPYJ0zaKWdzFt8iI6UlwypD9999HC913k2F gAjGxQW4lzEA2/juavxENiG1vGeQQ64Ms0wOP8wAdaEE0O5RSiVhlOjpqtlpamTd Mx3DR6EKSLrz9acjB87rya6YRRtVfsjrzngOjiPMLdqhhYImYooPYNx+4vac7o92 gsEsOkh5l9u2NHfyoAcowXWUpIS9gGcstxTiWGiaDpIeSWbXj07UZw== =hX+X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pjn at nworks.com Mon Aug 26 07:21:18 1996 From: pjn at nworks.com (pjn at nworks.com) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:21:18 +0800 Subject: Husband/Wife jailed f Message-ID: > Published in Washington, D.C. July 9, 1996 > Insult to Clinton leads to 2 arrests > > ------------------------------------------------------ > By Ruth Larson > THE WASHINGTON TIMES > ------------------------------------------------------ In> I think you should try a more credible paper. Say, Scientology's In> Freedom Magazine, rather than the Moonies'. You are of course free to In> believe whatever you wish. In> -rich Lets see... I heard that on: * CNN * Local News * And on a Shortwave radio broadcast. They might not bat 1000, but even 500 is good. P.J. pjn at nworks.com ... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] From jya at pipeline.com Mon Aug 26 09:03:37 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:03:37 +0800 Subject: NAV_ios Message-ID: <199608261253.MAA23264@pipe1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> 8-26-96, NYP: "A Netscape Bid For the Souls of New Machines." Markoff. Netscape plans on Monday to announce that it has created a software company that will enter an alliance with I.B.M., Oracle and four Japanese consumer electronics giants. The venture, called the Navio Corporation, intends to develop refined software for browsing the Internet and a new OS that Netscape hopes will become a standard means for controlling Internet access and basic operations for a broad range of consumer devices. The four Japanese companies in the alliance -- Sony, Nintendo, Sega and NEC -- are dominant in producing a variety of home entertainment devices, and the expected announcement, analysts said, suggested that the Internet, which until now has largely been a business and educational marketplace, would soon vastly broaden its scope. ----- http://jya.com/navios.txt (8 kb) NAV_ios From maldrich at grci.com Mon Aug 26 11:38:17 1996 From: maldrich at grci.com (Mark O. Aldrich) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 02:38:17 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Mike Howell wrote: > Does anybody know what I can get for generating the credit card numbers? > Two to ten, if this is your first offense. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Just as the strength of the Internet is |Mark Aldrich | |chaos, so the strength of our liberty |GRCI INFOSEC Engineering | |depends upon the chaos and cacophony of |maldrich at grci.com | |the unfettered speech the First Amendment|MAldrich at dockmaster.ncsc.mil | |protects - District Judge Stewart Dalzell| | |_______________________________________________________________________| |The author is PGP Empowered. Public key at: finger maldrich at grci.com | | The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author | | and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From lwp at conch.aa.msen.com Mon Aug 26 11:39:09 1996 From: lwp at conch.aa.msen.com (Lou Poppler) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 02:39:09 +0800 Subject: Public vs Private (Was: Re: Violation or Protection?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6xzHyMz2BACP083yn@mail.msen.com> On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:50:38 -0700, tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) wrote: } At 11:51 PM 7/31/96, Blanc Weber wrote: [ re: searches of visitors to "Centennial Park" in Atlanta ] } >But if the park was a private one, would it make any difference? } } Of course, which is why stores can have "bags will be searched" policies, } restrictions about atire, and all sorts of other policies which are not } allowed in public places. } } Disneyland is a private park, and has rules which are not the rules a } public park can have. } } Put it this way, "My house, my rules." As with anything, there are gray areas and boundary cases in real life where this is not as clear-cut as in the private/public examples TCM has provided us in the past. Let's look at a couple of fuzzy examples. Years ago, I worked for a company which operated a chain of movie theatres. A group decided to picket in front of several of our theatres. One of the theatres was right downtown, with the front of the building about ten feet from the street, separated only by the city sidewalk. Everyone agreed that this sidewalk was clearly public, and the company couldn't control what the picketers did on this public sidewalk. Later, this same group moved their picketing to another of our theatres, across town. Here, the theatre sat in the middle of a large parking lot, with no sidewalks between the parking lot and the street, but a sidewalk right in front of the building. It seemed pretty clear that this time the sidewalk was private property -- the company owned the entire lot, including all the parking, the sidewalk, and the building. On the advice of the company's attorneys, the manager called the City Police who escorted the picketers off the property. The picketers took the company to court, and won a judgement allowing them to return and requiring the company to apologize. The judgement was upheld on appeal -- the case mostly hinged on the fact that there was no other reasonable place for them to picket, since there was no sidewalk at the public street. Another fuzzy gray area would be the common areas in shopping malls -- the large corridors outside the stores, with fountains and park benches and payphones and trees and public performance areas. These spaces are the evolutionary replacement of the urban downtown public spaces. Yes, they are technically private property, and the property owners are careful not to jeopardize that status, with carefully worded public signage, and detailed procedures for their rent-a-cops' dealings with the members of the public. Yet at the same time, the management also carefully cultivates the image of their common space as the cool place for trendy young people to want to gather. Various skirmishes are occasionally fought over such questions as soliciting petition signatures or giving out free printed information in these spaces. This is a market-driven mutation of the notion of common spaces, away from the publicly-owned town square, toward the corporately-owned. TCM's mention of Disneyland is right on target. } > I mean, either it is, or it isn't, a "right". When could it really be } >okay to violate that definition. How are the law enforcers to do their } >job if they can't intrude into your shopping bag, when it's a critical } >National Emergency. This is what Denning is always referring to. } } One needs to distinguish "rights" vis-a-vis government actions, and the } policies of private actors. The usual point about "freedom of speech" } applies. E.g., Blanc has "freedom of speech," but not inside Microsoft. } } Not to lecture, but this frequent blurring of public vs. private areas, of } government vs. corporate actions, of "property rights," is hurting the } cause of liberty. This is true in perhaps more ways than those so far discussed. The cause of liberty is broad: it embraces Mr. May's freedom to run his hypothetical business by his own rules, dictating what his employees may and may not do using his computers and firing them if he doesn't like the color of their tie; it also embraces the freedom of surly youths and old codgers to hang out somewhere, up to no particular good and espousing unpopular or pig-headedly-wrong opinions, frightening horses and small children. The "frequent blurring of public vs. private areas" is partly due to fuzzy-headed thinking by the public at large. It is also partly due to deliberate blurring by powerful & cynical forces whose causes are furthered by the resulting confusion and by the incremental restrictions on unapproved liberties. A corporation might see more revenue and decreased repair/security/PR costs, if they can reduce the number of teenagers skateboarding and smoking cigarettes outside their doors. An ambitious citycouncilman or district attorney might see more favorable publicity and advancement to more powerful positions, if they can control irritating protest rallies and disagreeable eccentrics impairing the "quality of life" in their jurisdictions. One direct means to this intentional "blurring" is the current trend of "privatizing" various government activities. A city-owned public library is open to basicly anyone (or recently at least anyone who can prove they are a resident of that city). A privately-operated public library may and will exclude undesirable persons arbitrarily. A state park is open to basicly anyone, with few restrictions on what is illegal activity therein; a Disney-operated private theme-park is a quite different. Expect more of this privatization, in more areas of life. For example, in East Lansing the Downtown Development initiative has "revitalized" a couple blocks of downtown: what was formerly a parking lot and a small city park and a few decayed storefronts, is now a shiny new hotel/commercial complex complete with a "fountain square" containing some benches and sidewalks and trees. The catch? Fountain Square is owned by the hotel, and anyone named by hotel security guards as undesirable is removed therefrom by the city police for trespassing on private property. Gone is the former city park. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: It is much easier for an arbitrary :: Lou Poppler :: intelligence to pass the Turing Test :: http://www.msen.com/~lwp/ :: via email rather than via live chat. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU Mon Aug 26 11:42:12 1996 From: raph at CS.Berkeley.EDU (Raph Levien) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 02:42:12 +0800 Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199608261350.GAA13823@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu> I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list at kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"c2"} = " eric pgp hash reord"; $remailer{"penet"} = " penet post"; $remailer{"flame"} = " cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut post reord"; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"ecafe"} = " cpunk mix"; $remailer{"amnesia"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ksub"; $remailer{'alpha'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{'nymrod'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"lead"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"nemesis"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"vegas"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"ncognito"} = " mix cpunk pgp hash latent"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord"; catalyst at netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth at ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura at replay.com is _not_ a remailer. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (c2 alpha) (flame replay) (alumni portal) The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. Last update: Mon 26 Aug 96 6:48:16 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- exon remailer at remailer.nl.com ***-* 17:17 99.96% mix mixmaster at remail.obscura.com +-++-+--++++ 2:27:19 99.95% jam remailer at cypherpunks.ca *******.**** 1:14:34 99.94% nemesis remailer at meaning.com ************ 15:42 99.93% squirrel mix at squirrel.owl.de +-+- 2:27:26 99.62% penet anon at anon.penet.fi ...---..-- 21:06:37 99.58% replay remailer at replay.com **** *++* ** 5:07 99.10% middle middleman at jpunix.com -- 1:34:56 99.02% amnesia amnesia at chardos.connix.com -------- -- 3:52:36 98.47% lead mix at zifi.genetics.utah.edu + +++++++-+ 52:43 96.86% winsock winsock at c2.org ..------ -- 12:52:32 95.16% balls remailer at huge.cajones.com *******# *** 4:39 92.86% haystack haystack at holy.cow.net * - -*#*#* 37:17 83.96% extropia remail at miron.vip.best.com ---- - 5:40:19 73.28% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From sclatter at netscape.com Mon Aug 26 16:09:17 1996 From: sclatter at netscape.com (sclatter at netscape.com) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:09:17 +0800 Subject: Apology Message-ID: <199608261727.KAA23073@littlewing.mcom.com> During my efforts to rectify a problem with our news server, I inadvertently remailed a number of messages to this list. I apologise for the disturbance this has caused, and will do my best to prevent a repeat of the error. Thank you, Sarah From jim at acm.org Mon Aug 26 16:09:23 1996 From: jim at acm.org (Jim Gillogly) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:09:23 +0800 Subject: NSA's Venona Intercepts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608261720.KAA02103@mycroft.rand.org> smith at sctc.com (Rick Smith) writes: >One question that I haven't found answered in my perusals of the site is a >definitive statement of the cryptographic technology used by the Soviets. I >was re-reading Kahn's 1967 chapter on Soviet crypto and he claimed that >they relied primarily on one time pads. In fact, he was pretty specific >about them using OTPs for exactly the type of traffic appearing in the >Venona archive. But when I look at the partial decrypts in the Venona >archive I don't understand how you'd get such partial decrypts from OTPs. >The intercepts seem to indicate the use of ciphers with some codewords >weakly layerd on top. Some intercepts show translations based on the >phonetic properties of the extracted Russian plaintext. So I don't think >the "unrecovered codegroups" are caused by a classic code that substitutes >tokens for word meanings. But you're not going to crack only part of a OTP >ciphertext -- presumably you'd need a compromised key tape, and that would >either decrypt everything or nothing. >So they were either really using rotor machines or they were using >something else. Any other ideas? Other references? I too am waiting eagerly for them to show more of the real details of decryption; but from what we know so far, the partial decrypts seem quite compatible with what NSA says they broke: an underlying code system superencrypted with a OTP which occasionally becomes a 2TP. For example, suppose you have two chunks of ciphertext, and you've determined using the kappa test that they have a partial overlap (the easy part of the process). You superimpose them as follows: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb and then work on the parts where the a's and b's overlap. If you know the underlying code book (through a decade of previous hard work, or, if you're really lucky, finding a partially-burned copy of a codebook in a castle in Germany), you can with considerable sweat determine the code groups in both messages in the overlapped part, recover that part of the OTP, and then drag the recovered OTP through the rest of your traffic looking for more matches. If you don't have a complete code book you may not know what all of the code words mean; for example, I've seen no evidence that ALES really does stand for ALGER HISS. In addition, if you have no more overlaps with the part at the beginning of message "a" or the end of message "b" above, you have no way to determine anything about those parts of the OTPs other than the length of the bits you can't read. These two sources of difficulty seem to me to explain the "unrecovered codegroups" you noted: for the long stretches, they didn't have overlapping messages to give an entry into the OTP; for individual code groups, they didn't have enough context to break that part of the code. The phonetic stuff you mentioned doesn't cause me heartburn -- a code will include syllables or letters, so that concepts that don't have their own code group can get assembled out of constituent parts. Still seems consistent to me. Jim Gillogly 4 Halimath S.R. 1996, 17:08 From bkmarsh at feist.com Mon Aug 26 16:11:04 1996 From: bkmarsh at feist.com (Bruce M.) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:11:04 +0800 Subject: USPS In-Reply-To: <199608240345.WAA10974@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote: > Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent > through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed > encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their > system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you > wright. Why not? I believe it is already illegal to place anything in a person's physical mail box that the post office hasn't processed. For the sake of preserving the 'integrity and security' of the Internet I can see the govt. taking such future actions. ________________________________ [ Bruce M. - Feist Systems, Inc. ] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Official estimates show that more than 120 countries have or are developing [information warfare] capabilities." -GAO/AIMD-96-84 So, what is your excuse now? From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 26 16:37:57 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:37:57 +0800 Subject: Public vs Private (Was: Re: Violation or Protection?) Message-ID: This is a very thoughtful essay. We need more of them. Though "I agree" messages are frowned upon, the fact is that most Cypherpunks messages understandably are messages critiquing or disagreeing with some part of another message...this is not too surprising. But sometimes it's useful to say "I agree." At 1:31 PM 8/26/96, Lou Poppler wrote: ... >As with anything, there are gray areas and boundary cases in real life >where this is not as clear-cut as in the private/public examples TCM >has provided us in the past. Let's look at a couple of fuzzy examples. ... >Another fuzzy gray area would be the common areas in shopping malls -- >the large corridors outside the stores, with fountains and park benches >and payphones and trees and public performance areas. These spaces ... >for trendy young people to want to gather. Various skirmishes are >occasionally fought over such questions as soliciting petition signatures >or giving out free printed information in these spaces. This is essentially a "squatter's rights" kind of "blurring," as I see it. (And I don't agree with the argument for the blurring.) The argument goes something like this: "I've been coming to this Mall for many years, and this is where the people I want to see my protest come. Therefore, I have earned a kind of squatter's right to enter your property and make my protest." The larger game-theoretic point is the one Lou notes later, that the players on all sides use the law to jockey for advantage--the merchant gets skateboarding and loitering banned on public streets, customers of private shopping malls get the courts to let them set up their protests on the property of others. (Needless to say, I don't sympathize with either example.) ... >This is true in perhaps more ways than those so far discussed. >The cause of liberty is broad: it embraces Mr. May's freedom to run his >hypothetical business by his own rules, dictating what his employees may >and may not do using his computers and firing them if he doesn't like >the color of their tie; it also embraces the freedom of surly youths >and old codgers to hang out somewhere, up to no particular good and >espousing unpopular or pig-headedly-wrong opinions, frightening horses >and small children. And just as one lobbying group is pushing for restrictions in public places of "loiterers" and "bums" (my town, Santa Cruz, passed a law which criminalized _sitting_ on public streets, even out of the flow of traffic), other lobbying groups are pushing for interfering with rights of employers to set dress codes, as but one example. A constant confusion of what "rights" really are. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From vznuri at netcom.com Mon Aug 26 16:58:49 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:58:49 +0800 Subject: Denning interview in Wired Message-ID: <199608261817.LAA03556@netcom11.netcom.com> don't recall anyone mentioning this-- Steven Levy did a lengthy piece on Dorothy Denning for the recent Wired. any reactions? I was personally struck at how Dorothy seems to lack strong convictions that hold up in the face of others. she wrote a paper urging that hackers be studied and worked with by the security community and then backed away from the position quickly after talking to "authorities". I was amazed that Dorothy, after a long time, has failed to confront some very basic issues in her advocation of Clipper: 1. constitutional issues. it would be ok for me if she described why she thinks that privacy is not constitutionally protected, but she fails to mention constitutionality issues in virtually any of her writings. frankly this strikes me as the utmost weasely evasion. is she aware of any court precedent on freedom of speech, freedom to speak in private etc? she never quotes any case law etc. 2. she fails to address the issue of "returns vs. cost" or "cost/benefit" ratio. her argument amounts to an extremely simplistic line, "law authorities have been stymied by crypto. therefore it should be restricted". but this reminds me of speed limit advocates saying, "55 saves lives". well, how many? 35 saves lives over 55. the key issue is that of *compromise*: what is the optimum compromise? we can catch more criminals by adding security cameras everywhere, but what are the costs? such back-and-white thinking has little place in any complex policy issue, yet unfortunately tends to dominate them. it's very bizarre to see an academic like Denning just seem to be vacuously oblivious to such simple concepts such as "tradeoffs". nothing I've read suggests she has ever addressed the issue of *compromise* in regard to catching criminals vs. protecting rights. but amazingly, people like Kallstrom seem to think the same way. paraphrased, "if even one criminal gets away because we didn't have enough funding in the FBI, we need more funding in the FBI" etc. 3. she fails to address the "big brother" issue. why is wiretapping never going to be used by "big brother"? it's inconceivable to me how she can honestly evade this issue as well. she has never addressed the issue of abuse by law authorities from what I can tell. 4. Denning seems to be to be remarkably swayed by "authority figures". she has changed her opinion before based merely on conversations with "authority figures" in the FBI and NSA. it seems maybe she has a bit of "spook envy" or something like that. many of her arguments for me essentially amount to, "people that claim to know what they are doing say we need [x], therefore we need [x]" well, I am not trying to start a new round of Denning-bashing (although that's always fun, hee, hee) but the recent article does give a little new food for thought about Denning's psychology etc. frankly I think that Denning has lost the intellectual battle because she absolutely fails to address some of the above key points. (particularly the total failure to address the constitution is getting more egregious). I suggest that anyone who wants to debunk her line of thinking (which apparently is getting to be awfully easy) just focus on any of the above areas. she apparently has no reponse to these points in anything I have read of hers. From frantz at netcom.com Mon Aug 26 16:59:54 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:59:54 +0800 Subject: NSA's Venona Intercepts Message-ID: <199608262018.NAA02361@netcom8.netcom.com> At 10:49 AM 8/26/96 -0600, Rick Smith wrote: >One question that I haven't found answered in my perusals of the site is a >definitive statement of the cryptographic technology used by the Soviets. I haven't revisited the site to check, but I distinctly remember a statement to the effect that the system was a one time pad system. However, due to a mistake somewhere in the chain, some of the one time pads were used twice. The resulting two time pad system gave NSA the wedge they needed to recover what they have. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From jad at dsddhc.com Mon Aug 26 16:59:55 1996 From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:59:55 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960826182604.008973e0@labg30> At 12:38 PM 8/25/96 -0500, you wrote: >Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > >What do cypherpunks think about the following practice or law (I realize >that it may be impossible to implement): each email message should carry >a little digicash check for, say, 20 cents. Mail reading programs should >reject (send back unread) all messages not carrying these digital >checks, unless the senders are in the "friends list". The MUAs should >ask users whether they want to "cash" the digital check or not. I'm all in favor of it. The POP3 client I write to cash those little digital droplets and tell the spammers that I *love* to get their ads, read each one for 45 seconds/page, scroll thru them lovingly, and reply to the specified address for much more information, has the potential to pay for my master's degree. Call it the SpamMonster(tm). ("Spam is for money, that's good enough for me") Therefore, in order to actually make their system work, they'd need to send out their own special mail readers. And I'd disassemble one and SpamMonster(tm) would continue to eat their spam, ad infinitum (pun not intended, but it works really, really well, n'est pa?) I do not believe it is possible to have a secure executable that exists on an uncontrolled user's machine. "Tamperproof" encryption chips still require communications in and out from the user's program. A determined attacker could continue to use the pieces of their code that talk to the encryption chip. Never underestimate the allure of "free money" when you're planning to give it away. >If they do cash the check, the digital bank notifies the senders, so >that they can adjust their behavior and would not send letters to such >individuals. > >The checks should expire very soon to prevent people cashing them later >when they are desperate for money. There can also be public notice >systems that store addresses of individuals who abuse the system (for >example, those who post questions to newsgroups and collect the digital >checks), so that people would not reply to such users in the future. Hmm. Reading ONE message from them puts me on a "Spammer's blacklist"? Without the e-cash incentive, sign me up! >Is there a potential for abuse in this system? Depends on your point of view :-) I certainly think it has potential! John -- J. Deters "Captain's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull." +-------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: jad at dsddhc.com (work) jad at pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | PGP Key ID: 768 / 15FFA875 | +-------------------------------------------------------+ From jims at MPGN.COM Mon Aug 26 17:06:10 1996 From: jims at MPGN.COM (James C. Sewell) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:06:10 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960826110912.006d4158@central.tansoft.com> At 03:47 AM 8/24/96 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: > >No I have to dissagree. Who I send mail to or whom I receive mail from is >no-ones business. I for one have no intention of "signing up" or >"regestering" with any mail server. I most certainally want to be the one to >decide what mail I receive or do not receive, not someone elses idea of what >I should receive. Upon reflection I can say you are right, UNLESS we can put this "signup" thing on the end-user's machine so he can set it in his own privacy and no one else can pilfer it. The ultimate solution is AI mail clients, but that's too far off to wait for, I feel. Jim Sewell - jims at tansoft.com Tantalus Incorporated - Key West, FL From byrd at acm.org Mon Aug 26 17:40:12 1996 From: byrd at acm.org (Jim Byrd) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:40:12 +0800 Subject: sorry about the mail bounces Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960826155707.006f1f34@super.zippo.com> It seems that my address may have caused lots of problems for the list, mailing lists were getting lots of bounces of things sent to me. I haven't heard for sure, but I'm guessing this is the reason the list was taken down yesterday. ACM Network Services tells me they have fixed the problem now. Sorry about that, but I had no idea the problem was happening. From smith at sctc.com Mon Aug 26 17:49:32 1996 From: smith at sctc.com (Rick Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:49:32 +0800 Subject: NSA's Venona Intercepts Message-ID: The bulk of the material available from NSA's web site is associated with a long time project called Venona to decrypt Soviet message traffic from the 1940s. It's an interesting exhibition of the practical output of cryptanalysis that, incidentally, contains alleged reference to famous Commie spies of that era (Hiss, the Rosenbergs, etc). One question that I haven't found answered in my perusals of the site is a definitive statement of the cryptographic technology used by the Soviets. I was re-reading Kahn's 1967 chapter on Soviet crypto and he claimed that they relied primarily on one time pads. In fact, he was pretty specific about them using OTPs for exactly the type of traffic appearing in the Venona archive. But when I look at the partial decrypts in the Venona archive I don't understand how you'd get such partial decrypts from OTPs. The intercepts seem to indicate the use of ciphers with some codewords weakly layerd on top. Some intercepts show translations based on the phonetic properties of the extracted Russian plaintext. So I don't think the "unrecovered codegroups" are caused by a classic code that substitutes tokens for word meanings. But you're not going to crack only part of a OTP ciphertext -- presumably you'd need a compromised key tape, and that would either decrypt everything or nothing. So they were either really using rotor machines or they were using something else. Any other ideas? Other references? Rick. smith at sctc.com secure computing corporation From ncognito at gate.net Mon Aug 26 17:58:42 1996 From: ncognito at gate.net (Ben Holiday) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:58:42 +0800 Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:35:07 GMT Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) On Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:55:30 -0600 (MDT), Carl Nation wrote: To our Resellers/Customers, Our sysadmin received this security alert, and we thought we should pass it along... ------- Forwarded Message Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:12:59 -0400 From: felten at CS.Princeton.EDU (Ed Felten) Subject: Internet Explorer Security Problem We have discovered a security flaw in the current version (3.0) of Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser running under Windows 95. An attacker could exploit the flaw to run any DOS command on the machine of an Explorer user who visits the attacker's page. For example, the attacker could read, modify, or delete the victim's files, or insert a virus or backdoor entrance into the victim's machine. We have verified our discovery by creating a Web page that deletes a file on the machine of any Explorer user who visits the page. The core of the attack is a technique for delivering a document to the victim's browser while bypassing the security checks that would normally be applied to the document. If the document is, for example, a Microsoft Word template, it could contain a macro that executes any DOS command. Normally, before Explorer downloads a dangerous file like a Word document, it displays a dialog box warning that the file might contain a virus or other dangerous content, and asking the user whether to abort the download or to proceed with the download anyway. This gives the user a chance to avoid the risk of a malicious document. However, our technique allows an attacker to deliver a document without triggering the dialog box. Microsoft has been notified and they are working on fixing the problem. Until a remedy is widely available, we will not disclose further details about the flaw. For more information, contact Ed Felten at felten at cs.princeton.edu or 609-258-5906. Dirk Balfanz and Ed Felten Dept. of Computer Science, Princeton University http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/ ------- End of Forwarded Message From perry at alpha.jpunix.com Mon Aug 26 18:39:02 1996 From: perry at alpha.jpunix.com (John Perry) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 09:39:02 +0800 Subject: New type2.list/pubring.mix Message-ID: <199608262251.RAA01261@alpha.jpunix.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone, There is a new type2.list/pubring.mix update for Mixmaster on jpunix.com. The update reflects the temporary retirement of the anon Mixmaster remailer. Please update your files accordingly. The files can be obtained by WWW at www.jpunix.com and by anonymous FTP at ftp.jpunix.com. - -- John Perry - perry at alpha.jpunix.com - PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry at jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMiIqVlOTpEThrthvAQE4QwQAhFWK/mkfi7ucQq4xdnRJKiezeVr7tuT6 j0RYV+mnmiBjYX7jMtsEA4dSuEoTqG0IzXtihbu91qNk7mTyNfNmIegyIDfneD4M bJh3jpUK6d2zHJ8Bo8+dwVd6e+etZZ+0+CC9AULfuWC0AKUpkoF5ussjWf2L8thB WuSJQTT72UM= =DcDL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From declan at eff.org Mon Aug 26 18:45:22 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 09:45:22 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:23:57 -0400 From: Jonah Seiger To: Declan McCullagh Cc: shabbir at vtw.org, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu, brock at well.com, telstar at wired.com Subject: Re: INFO: Democratic convention chats online! Be there! (8/25/96) Declan: What are you thinking?! In a world where we have very few real friends, I simply don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. It's fine (and healthy) to raise concerns about the particular positions a member of Congress takes (hell, I don't agree with everything Leahy does), but to simply dismiss Leahy as a 'no friend of the Net' is naive and counterproductive. Look at the record. Leahy is hands down the strongest supporter of the Net in Congress. Period. No other Member (including our small but growing handful of other friends like Burns, White, Wyden, Cox, Eshoo, etc) has been a more forceful or consistent advocate for your causes for as long as Leahy has. What exactly do you want? Perhaps we should elect you to Congress and see how well you can do. Of course we are not going to agree with our friends on every issue. If Leahy takes a position you don't like, I'd suggest you talk to his office. I have found in my experience that Leahy's staff (and him personally) will take the time to listen when presented with a well presented argument. I'm also confused about another thing: which hat were you wearing when you wrote this? If it is your "advocate" hat I think it must covering your eyes. If it's your "journalist" hat, you need to do a bit better job of checking your facts in the future. Go a head and reject the "Beltway politicians". It's fashionable, sure, but what does it really accomplish? Some of them are dangerous. Others are sympathetic. The fact is that short of armed rebellion they are going to be here for a while. I shudder to think of the wrath our opponents could wage if we all threw up our hands packed up our bags and left town. Face the facts. Members of Congress have a lot of constituencies to deal with, and we are a small and relatively powerless faction. We can do a lot to change the outcomes of policy debates (if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be doing what I do everyday), but we have to be realistic, recognize where we fit in to the process and who are friends are. One thing's for sure - we have A LOT more enemies than we have friends. Most members of Congress don't really understand us or our issues. Many are willing to learn, and some have been real champions for our causes. But none of them are gong to continue reaching out a hand to us if we bark and bite when we don't get 100% of our way. Zealots rarely win (though it sure is fun to throw bombs). Sorry for the public thrashing, but this kind of attitude REALLY gets under my skin. Flames welcome (though response is not guaranteed ), Jonah At 6:45 PM 8/25/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Voters Telecommunications Watch wrote: >> [Notably missing from this schedule are Senators Patrick J. Leahy (D-VT) >> and Russell Feingold (D-WI) and House member Jerrold Nadler (D-NY). All >> three have impeccable cyberspace credentials and we look forward to seeing >> them online.] > >As Shabbir and Steve know, I'm a huge fan of VTW and congratulate them for >their successful efforts to keep netizens up-to-date on what's happening >in the meatspace body politic. > >But VTW's statement above is, unfortunately, untrue and misleading. > >Even though Sen. Leahy opposed the CDA, his stance on privacy illustrates >that his "cyberspace credentials" are anything but impeccable. His crypto >bill, introduced before Pro-CODE, would liberalize some export controls >but impose new and unprecedented criminal penalties for the use of crypto >associated with a crime. Worse yet, as recently as this month Leahy has >been clamoring to fund the invasive wiretapping legislation ("Digital >Telephony") he shepherded through Congress two years ago. > >Equally distressingly, Leahy demonstrated his "impeccable cyberspace >credentials" by cosponsoring the Senate online copyright bill -- aka the >Hollywood Media Mafia's wet dream. (Yes, these are the same rapacious >folks who are demanding that the Boy Scouts and summer camps pay cash to >sing "God Bless America" and "Puff the Magic Dragon.") Opposed by the >American Library Association, EFF, and teachers' organizations, Leahy's >bill would slam fair use rights online and could make it a crime to >browse the Net without a license. > >When VTW heralds Leahy as a friend of the Net with "impeccable cyberspace >credentials," they do the Net a disservice. Leahy is in no way a true >friend of the Net; I don't know of any Beltway politican who is. > >-Declan > > >// declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com / ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE CONTINUES TO THE SUPREME COURT ** It's not too late to be a part of history -- Join the Lawsuit -- -- Jonah Seiger, Policy Analyst Center for Democracy and Technology 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20006 PGP Key via finger (v) +1.202.637.9800 http://www.cdt.org/ (f) +1.202.637.0968 http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/ From liberty at gate.net Mon Aug 26 19:00:45 1996 From: liberty at gate.net (Jim Ray) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:00:45 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA Message-ID: <199608261832.OAA90700@osceola.gate.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Mon Aug 26 14:32:37 1996 I sent this earlier, but evidently toad.com ate it, so I am sending again, despite Bill Stewart's excellent post on the subject. BTW, Bill is one of the nicest guys you would ever want to meet, and all cypherpunks should try to meet him if they get a chance. Apologies if you get this twice, and I would only add that in any election there are winners and losers, and the sets of losers on cypherpunks if Harry Browne wins or does does well are: 1. Lawyers. If laws are simpler and better-written in something approaching the English language and judges who respect the constitution are selected-for, lawyers and law-professors would feel the economic effects of less demand for their services. 2. Accountants. If the tax laws are simplified and the IRS is eliminated, there will be less need for accountants to figure out what people actually owe in taxes. 3. Offshore dataheaven providers. ;) If the above happens, running businesses from the US will be relatively more attractive than running them from Anguilla, all other things being equal. Vincent Cate wrote: > Dole says he would fix the ITAR problem, but try to keep something like > CDA. He would say anything to get elected. > Clinton is keeping ITAR and signed CDA. But not having the religious > right he might soften on CDA. Lame ducks don't have to soften, on anything. That's what's so fun about being a lame duck. > The courts seem to be throwing out CDA much faster than ITAR (some fast > track to the supreme court built into the law). It also seems like > ITAR > is the more important thing to fix (it is easier to move pornography > etc > out of the US than major software companies). > > So it seems Dole is the better vote. Is this important enough to many > cypherpunks to actually determine their vote? If the Republican candidate had been Forbes, there might have been a "don't let the great be the enemy of the good" argument against voting for a Libertarian. As it stands now, Dole is, at best, arguably the "lesser of 2 evils," which still comes out evil in my book. As the designated partisan Libertarian on the list, I urge all cypherpunks to vote their consciences and pick Harry Browne and Jo Jorgensen. The mere fact that the media is [grudgingly] covering us suggests we are finally doing something right, and Harry is winning many Internet polls despite much fawning, hopeful coverage for the big-eared billionaire hypocrite stealth-candidate, who has no position on much of anything, but certainly would enjoy having the TLAs investigate his enemies. I fully accept that it is likely Dole or Clinton will win, but I think it will fill an important cypherpunk goal if the Libertarian Party candidates get a vote large enough to be the margin of victory, and I will be very proud of my vote, no matter who wins this election. Vote your consciences for your own sake, and the sake of the children who, no matter what, will inherit the debt of the irresponsible statists in power now. JMR Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy "'Filegate' is starting to make _Ed_ _Meese_ look ethical." -- me Defeat the Duopoly! Vote "NOTA," not Slick/Dull in November. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray C Ross Perot is now on welfare. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMiHtzG1lp8bpvW01AQFxxAP9GW/NizRkEqW0y4b0vGF5npoOGQj4jSVQ wBz8toN78LUY1xKyEj2y0WWqjfl3WQOMk2dCMlRskHZU8C8+nqLS3FgHaWCwrVF+ Th7LA3hvErvoVNKsrRTKAuGUkIm8XFQLfmPi8L6z94OXY5qXXRvVS9exRwlbH/DZ gpwGznNDjw0= =t8M2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rich at c2.org Mon Aug 26 19:00:58 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:00:58 +0800 Subject: GIFs of Observer [UK] anti-Net, anti-Remailer fear-mongering Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 09:44:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Graves To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Observer anti-Net story on the web Blatant copyright violation at: http://scallywag.com/ It's a couple of 105K GIFs. US Copyright terrorists may wish to mirror this information lest the intrepid Scallywag melt down. -rich From vipul at pobox.com Mon Aug 26 19:05:17 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:05:17 +0800 Subject: bot at anon.penet.fi Message-ID: <199605150537.FAA00496@fountainhead.net> C'punks, I posted the contents of a web site containing netspam stuff to cypherpunks. In the transaction a bot at anon.penet.fi caught my mail (thought it was a copy of the infamous Make Money Fast chain) and posted me a FAQ and bounced my message. (Though it seems to have reached cypherpunks already) -Vipul From maldrich at grci.com Mon Aug 26 19:07:33 1996 From: maldrich at grci.com (Mark O. Aldrich) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:07:33 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks at InfowarCon '96 Message-ID: There've been a couple of posts mentioning that there will be a Cypherpunk presence at InfowarCon '96. Besides the more public figures (Eric Hughes and Phil Zimmermann, among them), I'm sure that the audience will have a fair number of list participants in attendance. If anyone wants to say "howdy" or swap key fingerprints, I'll be there both days and for the reception on the 4th. I'm the panel moderator for "B1 - Emergency/Disaster Planning for the Effects of Information Warfare" affair on the 5th (stop by if you want to see FEMA and the Red Cross go at it). If you're at the "schmooze and booze" reception on the evening of the fourth, please come up and introduce yourself. I'll be the guy who's 6'2", 200lbs, shoulder-length brown hair in a red bandanna headband, full beard, jeans, boots, and my leather biker vest. I should be fairly easy to spot :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Just as the strength of the Internet is |Mark Aldrich | |chaos, so the strength of our liberty |GRCI INFOSEC Engineering | |depends upon the chaos and cacophony of |maldrich at grci.com | |the unfettered speech the First Amendment|MAldrich at dockmaster.ncsc.mil | |protects - District Judge Stewart Dalzell| | |_______________________________________________________________________| |The author is PGP Empowered. Public key at: finger maldrich at grci.com | | The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author | | and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vipul at pobox.com Mon Aug 26 19:24:51 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:24:51 +0800 Subject: Nuke attack? No, bug in DNS! (fwd) Message-ID: <199605160122.BAA00187@fountainhead.net> I think this is the main cause of all strange things happening on the net for last few days. Vipul Rishab A. Ghosh Wrote : > Was I the only one nuked by the DNS/BIND crash yesterday? I hope > I've not been automatically unsubscribed from the list. As not > everyone here reads c.p.tcp-ip.d I've attached Karl Denninger's > analysis. For those who were luckily immune, my ISP (best.com) like > many others, had it's DNS crash for _local_ domain names (belonging > to the ISP and customers like me) through most of yesterday. No, > not a virus, but bad DNS records "floating around" as Karl puts it, > that happened to expose a bug in the latest version of BIND. > > So much for immunity to nuclear war! > > Rishab > > > From: karl at MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) > > Newsgroups: comp.protocols.tcp-ip.domains > > Subject: SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH DNS SERVERS AND BAD RECORDS - Rev 4.9.4 > > Date: 23 Aug 1996 10:10:39 -0500 > > Organization: MCSNet Ops, Chicago, IL > > Message-ID: <4vkhlf$u4 at Jupiter.mcs.net> > > > > CAUTION! > > > > There are a series of bad nameserver records floating around on the net > > which are blowing up BIND versions 4.9.4 (REL and T5B) and possibly other > > releases as well. > > > > This has been VERIFIED to be impacting multiple ISPs and their DNS servers. > > > > We are shutting off updates from ANY DNS server which presents bogus data, > > which stops it from killing our code, but is of no help to the large number > > of domains which are presumably rendered unreachable. > > > > At present, this list is: > > > > bogusns 204.94.129.65 158.43.192.7 > > ; > > bogusns 199.3.12.2 38.241.98.5 199.71.224.105 206.215.3.10 > > bogusns 134.75.30.253 198.41.0.4 128.63.2.53 198.41.0.4 > > bogusns 206.66.184.11 206.66.104.37 > > ; > > bogusns 163.173.128.6 163.173.128.254 200.6.39.1 192.33.4.12 128.174.36.254 > > bogusns 129.79.1.9 128.174.5.58 > > > > > > All of these have presented at least one malformed record to us in the > > last two hours! > > > > Folks, if you run one of these servers, start tracking down the problem on > > your end. If this is bad cached data, THOSE AFFECTED MUST FLUSH IT > > AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TO TRY TO PREVENT PROPAGATION. > > > > This problem started as an isolated set of incidents yesterday, and is now > > spreading like wildfire. > > > > The actual bad data appears to be a domain name being returned in an > > authority record which is of the form "domain.comcom". We have not > > yet caught a bad returned record in a debug file; that is being attempted > > now. > > > > When this goes through "dn_expand" in the BIND code, it causes memory > > arena corruption and subsequent failure to resolve VALID zones which you > > are authoritative for. First signs are reports of "corrupted authority data" > > if you are using "dig" to check zones which you hold authority records for. > > > > We are working on a way to "harden" the code against this kind of junk data, > > but until we can get one deployed our defense is to shut down communication > > from those who are presenting us the garbage. > > > > PLEASE CHECK YOUR NAMESERVERS OUT AND TAKE NECESSARY STEPS YOURSELF! This > > is a serious problem which has the possibility of melting significant parts > > of the Internet infrastructure. > > > > -- > > -- > > Karl Denninger (karl at MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity > > http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available > > | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more > > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info at mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ > > Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! > > > > > > -- > > bryant durrell http://www.innocence.com/~durrell > > durrell at innocence.com http://www.innocence.com/fengshui > > durrell at bofh.net http://www.innocence.com/shadowfist > > big black nemesis parthenogenesis no one move a muscle as the dead come home > > > > From karlton at netscape.com Mon Aug 26 19:25:48 1996 From: karlton at netscape.com (Philip L. Karlton) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:25:48 +0800 Subject: Message Body Suppressed... In-Reply-To: <199608250312.WAA05286@bluestem.prairienet.org> Message-ID: <3221ED48.5079@netscape.com> David E. Smith wrote: > This is getting annoying. Could one of our > resident Netscape employees take a look into > this one and see what's happening? A system admin had a brain freeze over the weekend and was resubmitting some messages that bounced to a broken news server on Thursday. Some of the messages were redirected back to their originating mailing list. I have no idea why the message bodies were "suppressed." I can't tell when the messages were actually resent since the news gateway software rewrites the Date: field of the incoming messages. In any event, I don't believe anything sinister or intentional was done. PK -- Philip L. Karlton karlton at netscape.com Principal Curmudgeon http://home.netscape.com/people/karlton Netscape Communications From tcmay at got.net Mon Aug 26 19:26:11 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:26:11 +0800 Subject: USPS Message-ID: At 1:54 PM 8/26/96, Bruce M. wrote: >On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote: > >> Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent >> through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed >> encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their >> system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you >> wright. > > Why not? I believe it is already illegal to place anything in a >person's physical mail box that the post office hasn't processed. For >the sake of preserving the 'integrity and security' of the Internet I >can see the govt. taking such future actions. I'm skeptical of this analogy (that it could be used to take control of e-mail). The postal mailboxes that the Postal Service claims to control are those that are either marked "U.S. Mail" or fit the form and function typically associated with a "mailbox." A box standing on a post by the side of the road near one's house, for example. Often saying something about "Approved by the U.S. Postal Service," blah blah. The Postal Service has nominal ownership of these boxes, even when installed by customers (as is the norm, of course). (This comes up in one major way: non-Postal Service deliveries are not supposed to be made into such boxes. Secondly, there are limits on what customers can do to "defend" these boxes against vandals...this has come up in discussions of placing a small box inside a large box and filling the space between with cement, to break the arms of hooligans who play "mailbox baseball.") Anyone is free to place boxes on their property marked "For Federal Express Deliveries," "For Packages from Neighbors," etc. Or to rent "Mailboxes, Etc."-type boxes. These latter examples are analogous to e-mail accounts folks have at various ISPs. Or to Mailboxes, Etc.-type rental boxes. The Postal Service has limited jurisdiction over rental mailboxes, and even less authority over my placing of a "UPS leave stuff here" box on my porch. Thus, I don't seen the analogy as giving the Postal Service more sweeping powers over e-mail than they already have over physical deliveries. And given the already-anarchic and already-distributed nature of e-mail, it's hopeless. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From rich at c2.org Mon Aug 26 19:27:57 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:27:57 +0800 Subject: The Observer [UK] editorializes against online freedoms (fwd) Message-ID: Information longs to be free, even if some forums aren't... We've put scans of the full story onto www.scallywag.com. The source is a reporter for a competing newspaper. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 09:40:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Graves To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: The Observer [UK] editorializes against online freedoms Attribution for the forward deleted on request. Richardson's included PGP-signed letter, though, is public. I hope this reassures US activists that *even the British* know the story is wrong. -rich ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:24:05 +0100 Subject: Response to Observer A nice technical response to some of the factual innacuracies in The Observer piece. Not quite the way I would have done it . . . but good nonetheless. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I. T. Consultancy Limited Our reference L2217 The Editor The Observer 119 Farringdon Road London EC1R 3ER 26 August 1996 AN OPEN LETTER - FOR PUBLICATION Sir, I read with some interest the article by David Connett and Jon Henley in yesterday's edition regarding the Internet and child pornography. I was particularly interested as I am a computer consultant advising clients on Internet issues. In my professional opinion, the technical standard of the reporting was sufficiently poor as to be both inaccurate and misleading. The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain technical issues which might cause your readers to reach unfounded or incorrect conclusions. It is important to be aware of the various methods by which information generally (which can include pornography) is distributed around the Internet. Your article focuses on one particular route, namely Newsgroups. It is Newsgroups which are detailed in the Metropolitan Police's letter to Internet Providers and which are concentrated upon by your article. There are several other means of distributing information. I believe however that the Police letter lists fewer than the 150 groups referred to by the authors. Interestingly enough Newsgroups only offer the means of broadcasting information to anyone who wants to retrieve it. The authors do not appear to have a sufficient grasp of what a "remailer" does. For example they seem to draw a direct link between the use of such remailers and people being able to "log on and participate in 'live' and 'interactive' filmed sessions". A lay reader would perhaps draw the inference that the remailer is somehow involved in any such live participation. Unfortunately this could not be further from the truth. Remailers simply allow people to post messages, either as email to other people or to Newsgroups for general reading. Nothing more. Remailers are generally incapable of being "logged on" to. Your article also refers to "remailing companies", from which the lay reader might infer that remailers are operated for commercial profit. Such an inference would again be wholly incorrect. I know of no organisation operating a remailer for profit, indeed none of them even charge for their services. They are generally run by individuals on a voluntary basis who consider them as a service to the Internet community. Your article appears not to mention any of the purposes of such remailers other than in terms of the distribution of pornography. In my view it would be difficult to present a balanced article without doing so. Different remailers take different steps to prevent whatever their operators consider as "abuse". My understanding is that Mr. Helsingius' service restricts messages to 48k bytes (or characters) and prohibits postings to the "binaries" newsgroups designated for images. I also understand that it only allows 30 messages per user per day. At a technical level these restrictions would make it almost impossible to use his service for mass distribution of any binary data, not just pornography. It therefore appears surprising to me that your article should allege that Mr. Helsingius' remailer is responsible for handling "90 per cent of all child pornography" on the Internet. I wonder what substantiating evidence The Observer has to this effect other than the alleged claim by Toby Tyler. Indeed it appears from your article that the words "is supplied through this remailer" may not be a direct quote from Toby Tyler. Your article alleges that "the photographs made available to Demon's subscribers through the Internet are supplied anonymously by remailing companies". The lay reader might infer from this that all photographs therefore come via remailers. Again this would be far from the truth. Finally I hope this letter offers some assistance to your readers in clarifying a number of issues which were perhaps less than clear in your article. Given your newspaper's difficulties with technical issues, I would be grateful if you would kindly refer any editing of this letter to me prior to publication. Yours faithfully, Matthew Richardson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAgUBMiFvEAKwLwcHEv69AQGjIQP+IGR9rhvdYXe7CuCcwPl/tIrIBryikTM2 IVOpygTF2nCPf3WEJ8czRvs1emp9d9d++69XiG1f6QAeP9Jv/h9KzVtV7mjjuqCX LhlhXBYjLIiGCcxljKZ07zHFlCeZWCzuAmIFnZbz2fNNjqyicheIMlxI2tDrGgjp dlaGZuAI2XY= =dkXg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Aug 26 20:02:08 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:02:08 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" Message-ID: <199608262107.OAA16648@dns1.noc.best.net> At 09:50 AM 8/26/96 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Go a head and reject the "Beltway politicians". It's fashionable, sure, but > what does it really accomplish? Some of them are dangerous. Others are > sympathetic. Not true, some of them are merely less dangerous and harmful than others. As to whether Leahy is one of the less dangerous and harmful ones, that is seriously questionable. > The fact is that short of armed rebellion they are going to be > here for a while.I shudder to think of the wrath our opponents > could wage if we all threw up our hands packed up our bags and left town. Bad cop, good cop. You cooperate with the "good" cop, you go to jail. You tell them both to go to hell, then maybe you will not go to jail, and if you do go to jail, at least you will have the satisfaction of screaming injustice all the way: Re read what our "good" cop has been up to: > > Worse yet, as recently as this month Leahy has > > been clamoring to fund the invasive wiretapping legislation ("Digital > > Telephony") he shepherded through Congress two years ago. > > > > Equally distressingly, Leahy demonstrated his "impeccable cyberspace > > credentials" by cosponsoring the Senate online copyright bill -- aka the > > Hollywood Media Mafia's wet dream. (Yes, these are the same rapacious > > folks who are demanding that the Boy Scouts and summer camps pay cash to > > sing "God Bless America" and "Puff the Magic Dragon.") Opposed by the > > American Library Association, EFF, and teachers' organizations, Leahy's > > bill would slam fair use rights online and could make it a crime to > > browse the Net without a license. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 26 20:24:10 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:24:10 +0800 Subject: Credit enforcement Message-ID: <199608270039.RAA20498@toad.com> At 06:43 PM 8/17/96 -0400, you wrote: >I thought that classical libertarians agree that the enforcement of >contracts is a proper function of the government. The minarchists generally do, the anarchists generally don't, at least if you're talking about last-resort contract enforcement. The primary mechanisms always have been to use the market, whether through reputations, insurance companies, bonding agencies, boycotts, or (often the most powerful) the sheer value of repeat business. Much of the development of commercial law from the Romans through the Middle Ages been to find peaceful and efficient ways to do business without the King helping. There are historical alternatives to having government do it; the Irish, Icelandic, Somali, and American Arbitration Association non-state-based justice systems had/have various sets of social pressure to do the job. (For instance, Somali dispute resolutions usually end up with some number of cows or other money getting paid to a winning plaintiff, and if you don't pay, your extended family has to. Rarely, the family also refuses and bringing in a higher-reputation judge fails, and a brief feud ensues...) On the "should the government or the free market do this" scale, most people put last-resort contract enforcement at the "we don't mind too much if the government does it" end rather than the "overthrow the government if they even think about touching it" end, which is for issues like sex, drugs, rock&roll, freedom to travel, etc. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From geoff at digidem.com Mon Aug 26 20:26:48 1996 From: geoff at digidem.com (Geoffrey Gussis) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:26:48 +0800 Subject: Whistleblowing on the Internet Message-ID: I'm writing a paper for my ethics class on Whistleblowing, and specifically how it has been aided by the Internet. If anyone knows of any resources, pointers, etc., I would greatly appreciate it. The results will be published on-line, and I can send a copy to anyone who is interested as well. I am interested in information covering both the private sector and the government as well. I do know that the Federal Government has an online BBS where you can send in information on fraud, etc. What I have uncovered so far: + As far as a Lexis/Nexis search goes, I only found a few articles, and they centered around the Tobacco Papers, and the Scientology debate. + I located the Whistleblowing FAQ and contacted its author, but its last update was in 1994 and it is no longer being maitained. + I visited a couple of other related Internet sites (I searched using many search engines), but they don't really have examples of using the Internet for whistleblowing purposes. + I am also aware of the majority of Anonymity/Privacy sites on the Internet, and will definitely be utilizing them in the paper. Overall, I am quite surprised that there isn't a whistleblowing clearinghouse on the Internet; a site sponsored by a non-profit that lists email addresses and secure forms for sending anonymized email to those areas of the public and private sector that deal with whistleblowing. As the Internet is a great medium for information dissemination, and offers significant privacy advantages, I really expected to find much more. Is anyone else working in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Geoffrey Gussis 2L - Washington University School of Law ___________________________________________________________________ Internet Law Projects at http://www.digidem.com/legal/ + Worldwide Top-Level Domain/Trademark Dispute Resolution Policies + Businesses on the Internet (BOTI) Legal Research Initiative + Legal Links in Electronic Commerce and Interactive Entertainment From deviate at lipschitz.sfasu.edu Mon Aug 26 20:52:04 1996 From: deviate at lipschitz.sfasu.edu (J. Kelly Cunningham) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:52:04 +0800 Subject: New type2.list/pubring.mix In-Reply-To: <199608262251.RAA01261@alpha.jpunix.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, John Perry wrote: jp> Hello Everyone, jp> jp> There is a new type2.list/pubring.mix update for Mixmaster on jp> jpunix.com. The update reflects the temporary retirement of the anon jp> Mixmaster remailer. Please update your files accordingly. The files jp> can be obtained by WWW at www.jpunix.com and by anonymous FTP at jp> ftp.jpunix.com. jp> I notice that there is an entry for treehole: treehole treehole at mockingbird.alias.net 2c9f098377bf4f068751683f803834f5 2.0.3 Is it back? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Processed by mkpgp2.b, a Pine/PGP interface. iQCVAwUBMiHo2+Bu0383Om6dAQGyPAP+LeLbvQKL74t35BovqZcGA7ELWasUEA71 DJfLKWApg700lgGN4PQ8+puYIFxuHzN2oa0mksFUkl3uINXgY3C8KnWBVMuEwHKO m2IQjf5kX9MIeZ9DNEyXgb0FYfc4ohK4632gdZIkTeKVfcdRY/CZFc6UU1eRmUnS RVNZADo9OZc= =aj3h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- kc finger deviate at lipschitz.sfasu.edu | pgp -fka 49860926614586AF "The strongest reason for the people to retain their 54105BA338FBF0FB right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- Thomas Jefferson From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Aug 26 20:54:10 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:54:10 +0800 Subject: Discussion: The Digital Commerce Clause [Long] [Was: Re: The Commerce Clause and the Crypto Issue] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: > It seems to me that in recent years nearly any type of sweeping legislation > is justifed, constitutionally, by the clause in the U.S. Constitution which > says Congress shall have the power to regulate commerce. (More precisely, > the clause says: "To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the > several states, and with the Indian tribes;" This is usually interpreted to > mean _interstate_ commerce, and not sales/commerce/etc. that do not > centrally involved more than one state....obviously nearly all things sold > in one state are sold in other states, so there is lattitude for applying > the commerce clause, albeit wrongly.) > > Today's news is the sweeping new restrictions on tobacco and cigarettes, > including restriction on advertising and even on the placement of tobacco > and cigarette logos and names on sports jerseys and shirts. [...] > The catch-all for these laws seems to be the "regulate commerce" language > in the Constitution. Cigarettes are sold in multiple states, the logic > goes, so the commerce clause gives the government the power/authority to > regulate it. > > (Well, Steven King novels are sold in all 50 states, too. Does this > "regulate commerce" clause give the government the power/authority to > regulate what King puts in his novels? Or to ban advertising for Steven > King novels? Or to require that stores only sell such novels to adults?) > > This language is already being cited for some as a justification for > regulating encryption (hey, some businesses use it!), digital signatures > (ditto), and other forms of crypto. > > In fact, since nearly everything involves "commerce" in some way, whether > interstate or not, the "regulate commerce" clause can presumably be used as > a jusitification for interfering in all sorts of areas. > > The several legal experts out there on this list can clarify any errors of > interpretation I have made. I certainly know that the commerce clause > cannot be used to suppress certain kinds of speech, though the boundaries > of where it may be applied seem unclear. Mr. May is fairly close. If the commerce clause can not be used to suppress speech it is because there is a constitutional amendment protecting it. Practically speaking, the commerce clause is boundless in its grant. The evolution of Commerce Clause use is one of the most interesting examples of creeping statism in a western nation that I know of. Consider the classic view of the Commerce Clause a la Gibbons v. Ogden, 22 U.S. 1 (1824). [Robert Fulton and Robert Livingston were granted exclusive rights to operate steamboats in New York waters by the New York Legislature. Steamboats were a new technology, and the legislation was intended to encourage investment in the boats. Fulton and Livingston licensed Ogden to run a ferry service to New Jersey and Gibbons began to compete. Gibbon's's ferries were licensed as "vessels in the coasting trade" under a 1793 piece of legislation enacted by Congress. Ogden obtained an injunction in New York, Gibbons appealed.] Chief Justic Marshall for the majority: "The subject to be regulated is commerce, and our constitution being, as was aptly said at the bar, one of enumeration, and not of definition, to ascertain the extent of the power, it becomes necessary to settle the meaning of the word. The counsel for the appellee would limit it to traffic, to buying and selling, or the interchange of commodities, and do not admit that it comprehends navigation. This would restrict a general term, applicable to many objects, to one of its significations. Commerce, undoubtledly, is traffic, but it is something more: it is intercourse. It describes the commercial intercourse between nations, and parts of nations, in all its branches, and is regulated by prescribing rules for carrying on that intercourse. The mind can scarcely conceive a system for regulating navigation, which shall exclude all laws concerning navigation... and be confined to prescribing rules for the conduct of individuals, in the actual employment of buying and selling or of barter.... It is not intended to say that these words comprehend that commerce, which is completely internal, which is carried on between man and man in a state, or between different parts of the same states, and which does not extend to or affect other states. [sic] Such a power would be inconvenient, and is certainly unnecessary. Comprehensive as the word 'among' is, it may very properly be restricted to that commerce which concerns more states than one. The phrase is not one which would probably have been selected to indicate the completely interior traffic of a state, because it is not an apt phrase for that purpose...." Justice Johnson: [Who discusses the history of the state powers over commerce where states were complete sovereigns and the portion of that power which is delegated to the federal government.] [A]n absolute control is given over state legislation on [commerce], as far as that legislation may be exercised, so as to affect the commerce of the country. :::: So as it stands in the day, commerce seems to include buying selling bartering and transporting good or services between states. It is the interaction between states which defines commerce, and the authority to regulate it stems from the need to prevent one state from "affect[ing] the commerce of the country." This is the classic, and (in my view) fairly rational analysis of the commerce clause. Use of the commerce clause before the nineteenth century to actually regulate interstate commerce was limited. Insteaed Congress concentrated on programs and legislation to promote economic growth, taking steps, for example, to create the Bank of the Unted States, transfer public lands to private citizens, and providing for the national defense. Some authors note that the aftermath of the Civil war created many of the circumstances which made a more expansive view of the commerce clause appealing. For example, it is argued, the increasing success of the national economy made it more obviously interdependent and that localized problems increasingly became national problems. One might consider the period of Reconstruction, where the rights of newly freed slaves were not adequately protected by southern state governments. The case for national intervention was fairly compelling in this example. Theories of federalism began to emerge which expanded the role of the federal government and balloned the catagories of issues which fell into the definition of "nationally impacting." Many theorists use the Civil War itself as a vindicating example of the concept that national power could be used to "enforce" freedom. (For larger views of these theories and the historical context often used to support them, See Generally, H. Hyman, A More Perfect Union (1973); R. Harrison, The Weakened Spring of Government Revisited: The Growth of Federal Power in the Late Nineteenth Century, in The Growth of Federal Power in American History (R. Jeffreys-Jones & B. Collins eds. 1983). Some of the period's legislation reflects the new attitude, the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887 and the Sherman Antitrust act of 1880 are classic examples. These more active measures of regulation did, however, produce a growing group of citizens sensitive to the growing national powers. Many commentators note that the groups objecting to national legislation could provide very concrete examples why the congressional acts hampered freedom and economic growth, while proponents of the acts were limited to untested concepts of national economy, and theory. Federalist based objections to these legislative inititives forced the development of legal theories to address the concrete examples. Note that this period also began the currently obvious trend of promoting social goals viewed "as valuable wholly apart from their relation to economic development." These approaches are generally lumped into the "formal" and "realist" realms. Consider first, United States v. E.C. Knight Co., 156 U.S. 1 (1895): [The United States used the Sherman Act to set aside the acquisition by the American Sugar Refining Company of four competing refineries. The aquisition left only one independent refinery in operation which produced 2 percent of the sugar refined in the country. Chief Justice Fuller held that the Sherman Act did not reach this monopoly because the Constitution did not allow Congress to regulate "manufacturing." The government had argued that such concentrated manufacturing power constituted a monopoly over a necessity of life which was enjoyed by a large population of the United States which necessarily required resort to interstate commerce. Fuller replied that "this argument cannot be confied to necessaries of life merely, and must include all articles of general consumption. Doubtless the power to control the manufacture of a given thing involves in a certain sense the control of its disposition, but this is a secondary and not the primary sense; and although the exercise of that power may result in bringing the operation of commerce into play, it does not control it, and affects it only incidently and indirectly. Commerce succeeds manufacture, and is not a part of it. In Fuller's view, it would be "far-reaching" to permit a federal action "whenever interstate or international commerce may be ultimately affected. The fact that an article is manufactured for export to another state does not of itself make it an article of interstate commerce, and the intent of the manufacturer does not determine the time when the article or product passes from the control of the state and belongs to commerce." Fuller continued, noting that a monopoly in manufacture might restrain interstate commerce but that this was an indirect result and therefore American Sugar's action "bore no relation" to interstate commerce. Justice Harlan dissented, arguing that a monopoly that "obstructs freedom in buying and selling articles" to be sold outside of the state of manufacture "affects, not incidently, but directly, the people of all the States." In Harlan's view, "Whatever improperly obstructs the free course of interstate intercourse and trade, as involved in the buying and selling of articles to be carried from one state to another, may be reached by congress." To Harlan congress was merely, "prevent[ing] the coming into existence of combination, the purpose or tendency of which was to impose unlawful restraints upon interstate commerce." E.C. Knight Co. through Fuller, demonstrates nicely the "formal" view. The line of interstate commerce is drawn quite finely. Indirect effects are ignored. The realist view, as expressed by Harlan, looks instead to the effect on economy, the actual impact, or the intent of congress. Concepts like the "stream of commerce" (Congress may regulate an activity if it affects interstate commerce. Taft in Stafford v. Wallace, 258 U.S. 495 (1922)., and the "current of commerce" (Swift and Co. v. United States 196 U.S. 375 (1905)), began to form to facilitate the expansion of the reach of the commerce clause in the early 1900s. The court was a bit muddled about its approaches from the 1890's or so until the 1920's but the result was a great deal of flexibility in assessing the constitutionality of congressional statutes by the time the 1930's arrived. In 1933 Franklin D. Roosevelt took office. Addressing the crippled economy, the new president fostered a host of legislation, unprecidented in number and power. Enter: The New Deal. Consider the comments of one scholar: "Much of the legislation interfered with what many had come to regard as the prerogatives of private property, and, incidently, the proper domain of the states. The New Deal statutes were sure to generate challenges to their constitutionality. Supporters could draw on a complex, well-developed, and not entirely coherent body of law regarding the extent of Congress's power to regulate interstate commerce." Some of the first challenges arrived in the mid 1930's in the form of Nebbia v. New York, 291 U.S. 502 (1934); Norman v. Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, 294 U.S. 240 (1935) (upholding the repudiation of contractual duties to repay debts in gold) and Panama Refining Co. v. Ryan, 293 U.S. 388 (1935). Only Panama Refining succeeded as a challenge to legislation, invalidating portions of the National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933 which some commentators consider the conceptual centerpiece of the New Deal. More blows to the New Deal followed in the form of A. L. A. Schecter Poultry Corp v. United States 295 U.S. 495 (1935); Carter v. Carter Coal Co., 298 U.S. 238 (1936). At the time of the Schecter decision, the act in question was about to expire, and the administrative approach to its enforcement was becoming less and less popular. Schecter was, therefore, probably more important for its approach than its actual result. Consider Justice Hughes, for the majority: "The undisputed facts thus afford no warrant for the argument that the poultry handled by defendants at their slaughterhouse markets was in a 'current' or 'flow' of interstate commerce and was thus subject to congressional regulation. The mere fact that there may be a constant flow of commodities into a states does not mean that the flow continues after the property has arrived and has become commingled with the mass of property within the state and is there held solely for local dispotion and use. [...] "If the commerce clause were construed to reach all enterprises and transactions which could be said to have an indirect effect uipon interstate commerce, the federal authority would embrace practically all the activites of the people and the authority of the state over its domestic concerns would exist only by sufference of the federal government. Indeed, on such a thoery, even the development of the state's commercial facilities would be subject to federal control. "If the federal government may determine the wages and hours of employees in the internal commerce of a state, because of their relation to cost and prices and their indirect effect upon interstate commerce, it would seem that a similar control might be exerted over other elements of costs, also affecting prices, such as the processes of production and distribution that enter into cost could likewise be controlled. If the cost of doing an intrastate business is in itself the permitted object of federal control, the extent of the regulation of cost would be a question of discretion and not of power." :::: So we find the court rejecting a strictly "realist" approach and guarding certain "wholly local" activites from the reach of congression regulation by insisting on a "formalist" reading. One may note the attitude of the majority in Carter as demonstrative of the protectiveness the court was showing toward local activity. Consider Justice Sutherland for the majority: "Every journey to a forbidden end begins with the first step and the danger of such a step by the federal governmnet in the direction of taking over the powers of the states is that end of the journey may find the states so despoiled of their powers, or-- what may amount to the same thing-- so relieved of the responsibilities which possession of the powers necessarily enjoins, as to reduce them to little more than geographical subdivisions of the national domain." :::: These cases, along with United States v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1 (1936); Morehead v. New York ex rel Tipaldo, 298 U.S. 587 (1936), and the landslide victory by FDR hatched a cunning plan. Thwarted by the Supreme Court in serious ways, FDR proposed certain "changes" in the structure of the court. Essentially Roosevelt proposed that one justice be added for each justice over 70 who refused to resign or retire. This would bring the number of justices up to fifteen, and secure a safe majority on the court for the New Deal supporters. The rational was the the older justices were increasing the workload on the younger justices because they were unable to properly see to their duties. During debate on the proposal Justice Van Devanter left the Court and the Court upheld a state minimum wage state in West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish, 200 U.S. 379 (1937). Justice Roberts, formerly a New Deal opponent had switched his vote in West Coast. This last minute alteration was dubbed "The switch in time that saved Nine." It should also be noted that the majority leader of the Senate, Joseph Robinson, exerted a great deal of pressure on the Senate and personal pressure on individual Senators and was believed by many to have accumulated the required votes for the court packing plan. Robinson died of a heart attack however before the vote was taken and the plan was rejected. Personally, I am amazed that conspiracy buffs have not latched on to this piece of history. See Generally, Leuchtenberg, The Origins of Franklin D. Roosevelt's Court Packing Plan, 1966 Sup. Ct. Rev 347. One might also want to take into account the increasing power communists were showing in the United States. Several commentators have pointed out that without the "concessions" of The New Deal, the United States might well have faced a sudden and potent turn to socialism or communism The result, however, was a suddenly pro-New-Deal court. Witness Justice Hughes in NLRB v. Jones and Laughlin Steel Corp., 301 U.S. 1 (1937): "Although activites may be intrastate in character when separtely considered, if they have such a close and substantial relation to interstate commerce that their control is essential or appropriate to protect that commerce from burdens and obstructions, Congress cannot be denied the power to exercise that control." :::: and the outer limits of the commerce clause: Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942) [The Agricultural Adjustment Act allowed the Secretary of Agriculture to set a quota for wheat production. Each wheat grower was given an allotment. Filburn was a dary farm owner in Ohio. He also raised small amounts of wheat for his livestock and for making flower at home, for seed purposes, and for sale. His quota was 222 bushels, but he instead yielded 461 and was fined $117. Fulburn sued to enjoin enforcement arguing, among other issues, that his entiely local use and consumption of wheat for his own family use was beyond the reach of Congressional Legislation.] Justice Jackson: "The Court's recognition of the relevance of the economic effects in the application of the Commerce Clause has made the mechanical application of legal formulas no longer feasible. Once the economic measure of the reach of the power granted to Congress in the commerce clause is accepted, questions of federal power cannot be decided simply by finding the activity in question to be "production," nor can consideration of the economic effects be foreclosed by calling them "indirect"... ...even if appellee's activity be local and though it may not be regarded as commerce, it may still, whatever its nature, be reached by congress if it exerts a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce and this irrespective of whether such effect is what might at some earlier time have been defined as "direct" or "indirect..." That appelee's own contribution to the demand for wheat may be trivial by itself is not enough to remove him from the scope of federal regulation where, as here, his contribution taken together with that of many others similarly situated, is far from trivial." :::: Now we see the extreme edges of the commerce clause. Even individual acts, which alone are not sufficent to impact interstate commerce, may in their aggregate be seen to impact it. Congress thus can reach the most local acts. As a result, the commerce clause has become a quick and easy clause to rely upon when congress is attempting to impose its rule over what may appear to be "local activities." Civil rights legislation rested on the commerce clause as its authority, typically by arguing that privately owned estlablishments affected interstate commerce by e.g., their proximity to an interstate and the interstate makeup of their clients. It is worth noting that since the Wickard case, and until the year before last, no challenge based on commerce clause authority has suceeded. (The only case I know of involves the regulation of firearms possession in school zones and spurred some news stories last year). > I do expect [the commerce clause] to be used for crypto, though, and > this might even be upheld by the Supremes, especially in any areas > directly involving "digital commerce." Without a doubt. > We should watch for this, and think about ways to deflect or derail such > interpretations. Extremely difficult. As you can see, the commerce clause is deeply entrenched. Direct and indirect effects on commerce between the states are easily enough to reach the questioned activity. I think there is no doubt in the world that digital commerce will DIRECTLY impact interstate and foreign commerce from a legal point of view. If my growing wheat in my back yard does, you can bet the farm that new means of conducting business and making transactions across state boarders will. I hate to differ with Mr. May, but I think that deflecting or derailing this aspect of congressional authority to regulate is all but hopeless in light of cases like Wickard and that our efforts are best directed elsewhere. Now I know some list member will mail me asking how I can support the crushing grip congress has on the citizens of the United States and the States themselves. I do hope that member will re-read my post carefully before pecking out that letter. I believe the answer to preserving the purity of digital commerce is to form it in such a way so as to make regulation impossible, because in my view the constitution no longer provides citizens with the protection or freedom to progress. I feel the same way about privacy. All the constitutional arguments in the world mean little today. A systematic approach which makes violations of personal rights impossible whether constitutional or not is the answer. I see digital commerce burdened by regulations possessed of the character of money laundering, reporting requirements and due dilligence statutes. All of these are already entrenched, and there is literally ZERO chance of prevailing in a challenge based on the illegitimacy of the commerce clause in these cases. ("The cash is dead, long live the king.") Cypherpunks should do what cypherpunks do best. Write code, implement big brother proof systems and make them entrenched before they are legislated away. There are always creative ways to make laws which take away rights. You can't, however, legislate away mathamatics. > --Tim May -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From ichudov at algebra.com Mon Aug 26 21:08:30 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:08:30 +0800 Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608262206.RAA03891@manifold.algebra.com> please publish the exploit. many many thanks in advance igor Ben Holiday wrote: > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:35:07 GMT > Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) > > On Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:55:30 -0600 (MDT), Carl Nation > wrote: > > To our Resellers/Customers, > > Our sysadmin received this security alert, and we thought we should > pass it along... > > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:12:59 -0400 > From: felten at CS.Princeton.EDU (Ed Felten) > Subject: Internet Explorer Security Problem > > We have discovered a security flaw in the current version (3.0) of > Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser running under Windows 95. An > attacker could exploit the flaw to run any DOS command on the machine of > an Explorer user who visits the attacker's page. For example, the > attacker could read, modify, or delete the victim's files, or insert a > virus or backdoor entrance into the victim's machine. We have verified > our discovery by creating a Web page that deletes a file on the machine of > any Explorer user who visits the page. > > The core of the attack is a technique for delivering a document to the > victim's browser while bypassing the security checks that would > normally be applied to the document. If the document is, for example, a > Microsoft Word template, it could contain a macro that executes any DOS > command. > > Normally, before Explorer downloads a dangerous file like a Word > document, it displays a dialog box warning that the file might contain a > virus or other dangerous content, and asking the user whether to abort the > download or to proceed with the download anyway. This gives the user a > chance to avoid the risk of a malicious document. However, our technique > allows an attacker to deliver a document without triggering the dialog > box. > > Microsoft has been notified and they are working on fixing the > problem. Until a remedy is widely available, we will not disclose further > details about the flaw. > > For more information, contact Ed Felten at felten at cs.princeton.edu or > 609-258-5906. > > Dirk Balfanz and Ed Felten > Dept. of Computer Science, Princeton University > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/ > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > > > - Igor. From jya at pipeline.com Mon Aug 26 21:12:33 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:12:33 +0800 Subject: CLE_nup Message-ID: <199608262221.WAA00909@pipe5.t1.usa.pipeline.com> 8-26-96. FiTi: "Cleaning up the global economy. Policymakers must ponder the effects of money laundering." Is money laundering - as opposed to the crimes which produce it - necessarily such a bad thing? As Vito Tanzi notes in his IMF paper, the fact that money launderers are not fussy about economic fundamentals can help governments continue to pursue lax fiscal and monetary policies if they are equally unfussy about the origin of capital inflows. A pact with the devil, perhaps. But for many countries it may seem more attractive than signing up to a global financial market equivalent of Neighbourhood Watch. + Money Laundering and the International Financial System, IMF working paper, May 1996. ----- http://jya.com/clenup.txt (7 kb) CLE_nup From frantz at netcom.com Mon Aug 26 21:33:12 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:33:12 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA Message-ID: <199608261917.MAA24551@netcom8.netcom.com> At 1:37 AM 8/25/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: >So it seems Dole is the better vote. Is this important enough to many >cypherpunks to actually determine their vote? Every time I think about voting for Dole, I read something in the papers that convinces me it is a bad idea. The most recent is that he wants to raise the intensity of the disastrous, failed war on drugs. You know the war. The one that has forced suppliers to enforce their contracts with violence because the courts won't help them. The one that eliminated the concept of responsible use which has worked so well with alcohol. The one that has eliminated reputation from the drug market, leading to overdoses and poisonings. The one that is responsible for most of the wire taps authorized in the USA. The one that has turned the USA into the prison capitol of the world. Don't get me started. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From gnu at toad.com Mon Aug 26 21:45:53 1996 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:45:53 +0800 Subject: RSA/Security Dynamics filings are on the web Message-ID: <199608262238.PAA17133@toad.com> The RSA/SDTI merger may be the only chance we ever get to see RSA's financial info. Previously it was a privately held company, which didn't report its finances publicly; now it'll be reported as part of SDI (a much bigger company), so its finances will be hidden in their larger business. You can also see what RSA and SDTI are saying about the RSA/Cylink/Schlafly lawsuits, the origins of VeriSign, how Addison Fisher bankrolled RSA and owned 55% of it, etc. Look on the SEC's EDGAR system, which contains copies of reports that the government requires publicly traded companies to file. Go to http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/srch-edgar?security+dynamics+technologies and view the various forms. The most fun is probably the big one, the 1.5MB S-4 form from the merger itself. These documents will require a tolerance for legalese, but there are lots of gems in there for the patient. John Gilmore From hugh at ecotone.toad.com Mon Aug 26 21:46:20 1996 From: hugh at ecotone.toad.com (Hugh Daniel) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:46:20 +0800 Subject: ADMIN: Problems with the list goto the owner, not the list! Message-ID: <199608262123.OAA26029@ecotone.toad.com> In the future please send all messages of the form ~something is wrong with the list~ to owner-cypherpunks at toad.com and NOT the list its self. We already have enough off topic and puerile traffic cluttering up the list. If you think you see a _very_ major problem then please do email me directly. Now please get back to building the better world we sometimes still talk about building... ||ugh Daniel Majordomo Owner & Potty Trainer hugh at toad.com From adam at homeport.org Mon Aug 26 21:46:43 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:46:43 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) Message-ID: <199608270158.UAA24640@homeport.org> A few weeks back, I posted a request for source code review guidelines. I got about 50 me-toos, but no guidelines. So I wrote some I think are decent. They're still in draft format. I'd appreciate feedback & commentary on them. http://www.homeport.org/~adam/review.html Adam PS: Someone did pay me to do this, but doesn't want their name associated with it, because there are shoulds and musts in it. I have their permission to post the anonymized document. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From mhw at wittsend.com Mon Aug 26 22:18:22 1996 From: mhw at wittsend.com (Michael H. Warfield) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:18:22 +0800 Subject: The POUCH In-Reply-To: <960826234448_76473.1732_BHT119-3@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: JOHN E. HOLT enscribed thusly: > > The Pouch uses a 64 x 64 block product cipher, a 1024 bit random initialization > vector and the CBC technique. Most experts agree that such an implementation is highly resistant to all forms of cryptographic attack. > Hellman and Dilfie rely on knowing the algorithm for their known plain text attacks > An unpublished algorithm forces them into reverse engineering the computer > programs to learn the algorithm. The POUCH has many roadblocks built in > to prevent this. An unpublished algorithm mean that it's worthless snakeoil that depends on obfuscation until it is successfully reverse engineered (which you just set yourself up as a prime target) and then all of your chumps (ahh.. clients) get raped. I wouldn't even look at it and would advise all of my clients to avoid it like the plague... > I refer to Cummings, Cryptography and Data Security pages 150 and 98 in this regard. > John Holt -- Michael H. Warfield | (770) 985-6132 | mhw at WittsEnd.com (The Mad Wizard) | (770) 925-8248 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/ NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471 | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it! From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Mon Aug 26 22:23:18 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:23:18 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA In-Reply-To: <199608261917.MAA24551@netcom8.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Bill Frantz wrote: > At 1:37 AM 8/25/96 -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: > >So it seems Dole is the better vote. Is this important enough to many > >cypherpunks to actually determine their vote? > > Every time I think about voting for Dole, I read something in the papers > that convinces me it is a bad idea. The most recent is that he wants to > raise the intensity of the disastrous, failed war on drugs. > > You know the war. The one that has forced suppliers to enforce their > contracts with violence because the courts won't help them. The one that > eliminated the concept of responsible use which has worked so well with > alcohol. The one that has eliminated reputation from the drug market, > leading to overdoses and poisonings. The one that is responsible for most > of the wire taps authorized in the USA. The one that has turned the USA > into the prison capitol of the world. Don't get me started. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting > (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. > frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA > > > --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From whgiii at amaranth.com Mon Aug 26 22:32:15 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:32:15 +0800 Subject: Spamming (Good or Bad?) In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960826110912.006d4158@central.tansoft.com> Message-ID: <199608270040.TAA10161@mailhub.amaranth.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0b11.32.19960826110912.006d4158 at central.tansoft.com>, on 08/26/96 at 11:09 AM, "James C. Sewell" said: >At 03:47 AM 8/24/96 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: >> >>No I have to dissagree. Who I send mail to or whom I receive mail from is >>no-ones business. I for one have no intention of "signing up" or >>"regestering" with any mail server. I most certainally want to be the one to >>decide what mail I receive or do not receive, not someone elses idea of what >>I should receive. >Upon reflection I can say you are right, UNLESS we can put this "signup" >thing on the end-user's machine so he can set it in his own privacy and >no one else can pilfer it. >The ultimate solution is AI mail clients, but that's too far off to wait for, >I feel. Actually I just set-up a Twit/Auto-Reply filter for my email client. If you make it onto my twit filter all messages are bounced with a message to stop sending mail. I don't even know the message was sent to me unless I check my logfile. If someone really pisses me off some creative mail-bombing tend to get the message accross. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->I use OS/2 2.0 and I don't care who knows! MR/2 Tag->"Do your parents *know* you are Ramones?" - Ms. Togar -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMiJNAo9Co1n+aLhhAQFmugP+NjGXIsalppe9FqrkrRdZpBoZpLxUJsbO 35u/UlkjmtfbX8hJGVML21/OZM+rk4GpAdmiBePs5cLcvOipE01378q5XleOSvD9 PmZCuee2rtpkTV6LbAK5yutu7pD5cXqM2gqV07UqTE2NYBPz0DWXrGPxxAGa+r0X NrHTwOzvJeY= =j50N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From 76473.1732 at CompuServe.COM Mon Aug 26 22:39:22 1996 From: 76473.1732 at CompuServe.COM (JOHN E. HOLT) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:39:22 +0800 Subject: The POUCH Message-ID: <960826234448_76473.1732_BHT119-3@CompuServe.COM> The Pouch uses a 64 x 64 block product cipher, a 1024 bit random initialization vector and the CBC technique. Most experts agree that such an implementation is highly resistant to all forms of cryptographic attack. Hellman and Dilfie rely on knowing the algorithm for their known plain text attacks An unpublished algorithm forces them into reverse engineering the computer programs to learn the algorithm. The POUCH has many roadblocks built in to prevent this. I refer to Cummings, Cryptography and Data Security pages 150 and 98 in this regard. John Holt From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Mon Aug 26 22:54:54 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:54:54 +0800 Subject: ADMIN: Problems with the list goto the owner, not the list! In-Reply-To: <199608262123.OAA26029@ecotone.toad.com> Message-ID: Hugh Daniel writes: > wrong with the list~ to owner-cypherpunks at toad.com and NOT the list > its self. We already have enough off topic and puerile traffic > cluttering up the list. Too much of a good thing is never enough. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From declan at eff.org Mon Aug 26 23:01:06 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:01:06 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 18:52:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: Jonah Seiger Cc: shabbir at vtw.org, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu, brock at well.com, telstar at wired.com Subject: Re: INFO: Democratic convention chats online! Be there! (8/25/96) Jonah, I had expected some negative feedback from CDT, but I should say I was surprised by the tenor of your response. Unfortunately, you don't address the substance of my criticisms of Leahy: how can you defend Leahy's avowed support for Digital Telephony and the copyright legislation? How do his actions make him a "forceful" and "consistent advocate" with "impeccable cyberspace credentials?" (Hint: They don't. He isn't.) You write that: "Of course we are not going to agree with our friends on every issue." But I disagree with your underlying assumption; if a senator is our "friend," they won't do what Leahy does. Being familiar with technology does not a Net-advocate make -- take Al Gore, for instance, who net-surfs in an Old Executive Office building cluster... If I'm wearing any hat at all right now, it's my cypherpunk one. And that prompts me to say that we'll have more freedom online not by relying on the legislative process, but by deploying pro-freedom technology like anonymous remailers and PGP. We can't rely on an ossified Beltway Bureaucracy to preserve our freedoms. (In fact, we need to shrink the size of the Federal bureaucracy drastically to make it less susceptible to special-interest lobbying and to reduce its ability to encroach upon our civil liberties.) We've argued about this before, of course. I recognize that we have core philosophical disagreements. You want to work the legislative process and compromise, while I believe that some rights can't be negotiated away. I recall you supported White's "Harmful to Minors" CDA compromise that would have created a new and unprecedented category of speech crimes online. (The ACLU's Barry Steinhardt wrote on this list last fall that "no true civil liberties organization" would support such language.) You joined Leahy in supporting the Bennett bill, which would have permitted Equifax to create a national medical database with few privacy safeguards. Not to mention your defense of Leahy's pet Digital Telephony project... You write: "But none of them [members of Congress] are gong to continue reaching out a hand to us if we bark and bite when we don't get 100% of our way." I'm confused by this. Does it mean we shouldn't slam Leahy when he fucks with the Net? More disturbingly, the incorrect and misleading label of "impeccable cyberspace credentials" makes it more difficult to criticize Leahy when he does something (like DT funding or copyright) that harms netizens. I suppose you'd like to champion Leahy as a "Friend of the Net." But I'd rather not ignore his attempts to pass legislation that would hinder the development of the Net and intrude on our privacy. I reiterate my earlier statement: "Leahy is in no way a true friend of the Net; I don't know of any Beltway politican who is." -Declan On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Jonah Seiger wrote: > Declan: > > What are you thinking?! > > In a world where we have very few real friends, I simply don't understand > what you are trying to accomplish. It's fine (and healthy) to raise > concerns about the particular positions a member of Congress takes (hell, I > don't agree with everything Leahy does), but to simply dismiss Leahy as a > 'no friend of the Net' is naive and counterproductive. > > Look at the record. Leahy is hands down the strongest supporter of the Net > in Congress. Period. No other Member (including our small but growing > handful of other friends like Burns, White, Wyden, Cox, Eshoo, etc) has > been a more forceful or consistent advocate for your causes for as long as > Leahy has. What exactly do you want? Perhaps we should elect you to > Congress and see how well you can do. > > Of course we are not going to agree with our friends on every issue. If > Leahy takes a position you don't like, I'd suggest you talk to his office. > I have found in my experience that Leahy's staff (and him personally) will > take the time to listen when presented with a well presented argument. > > I'm also confused about another thing: which hat were you wearing when you > wrote this? If it is your "advocate" hat I think it must covering your > eyes. If it's your "journalist" hat, you need to do a bit better job of > checking your facts in the future. > > Go a head and reject the "Beltway politicians". It's fashionable, sure, but > what does it really accomplish? Some of them are dangerous. Others are > sympathetic. The fact is that short of armed rebellion they are going to be > here for a while. > I shudder to think of the wrath our opponents could wage if we all threw up > our hands packed up our bags and left town. > > Face the facts. Members of Congress have a lot of constituencies to deal > with, and we are a small and relatively powerless faction. We can do a lot > to change the outcomes of policy debates (if I didn't believe that I > wouldn't be doing what I do everyday), but we have to be realistic, > recognize where we fit in to the process and who are friends are. One > thing's for sure - we have A LOT more enemies than we have friends. > > Most members of Congress don't really understand us or our issues. Many > are willing to learn, and some have been real champions for our causes. > But none of them are gong to continue reaching out a hand to us if we bark > and bite when we don't get 100% of our way. Zealots rarely win (though it > sure is fun to throw bombs). > > Sorry for the public thrashing, but this kind of attitude REALLY gets under > my skin. > > Flames welcome (though response is not guaranteed ), > > Jonah // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From talkingmail at realaudio.com Mon Aug 26 23:03:43 1996 From: talkingmail at realaudio.com (RealAudio Talking E-mail) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:03:43 +0800 Subject: Scan the Web for Live News, Sports, & Music (Talking E-mail) Message-ID: <199608270352.UAA15251@audio20.prognet.com> -------------------------------------- | Make this e-mail talk! | | Load this URL into your Web browser: | | http://www.realaudio.com/tmh.ram | -------------------------------------- Dear RealAudio Customer, Since you downloaded our free RealAudio Player a while back, you have heard some pretty amazing things on the Web. Now you can hear even more with RealAudio Player Plus, an enhanced version of the RealAudio Player. RealAudio Player Plus has a scan feature that lets you scan the Web for live music, radio, sports, and news. It also has Preset Buttons, like a car radio, that take you straight to your favorite RealAudio sites. Please visit our Web site to find out more: http://www.realaudio.com/tmhplus/index.html We hope you enjoy RealAudio Player Plus, Rob Glaser Bruce Jacobsen Chairman & CEO, President & COO, Progressive Networks Progressive Networks From declan at eff.org Mon Aug 26 23:08:09 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:08:09 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" In-Reply-To: <199608262107.OAA16648@dns1.noc.best.net> Message-ID: Just to clarify, Jonah Seiger wrote the "Go a head and reject" lines below and I wrote the now thrice-nested "Worse yet, as recently" lines. My response to Jonah is forthcoming. -Declan On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, James A. Donald wrote: > At 09:50 AM 8/26/96 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Go a head and reject the "Beltway politicians". It's fashionable, sure, but > > what does it really accomplish? Some of them are dangerous. Others are > > sympathetic. > > Not true, some of them are merely less dangerous and harmful than others. > > As to whether Leahy is one of the less dangerous and harmful ones, that > is seriously questionable. > > > The fact is that short of armed rebellion they are going to be > > here for a while.I shudder to think of the wrath our opponents > > could wage if we all threw up our hands packed up our bags and left town. > > Bad cop, good cop. You cooperate with the "good" cop, you go to jail. You > tell them both to go to hell, then maybe you will not go to jail, and if you > do go to jail, at least you will have the satisfaction of screaming injustice > all the way: > > Re read what our "good" cop has been up to: > > > > Worse yet, as recently as this month Leahy has > > > been clamoring to fund the invasive wiretapping legislation ("Digital > > > Telephony") he shepherded through Congress two years ago. > > > > > > Equally distressingly, Leahy demonstrated his "impeccable cyberspace > > > credentials" by cosponsoring the Senate online copyright bill -- aka the > > > Hollywood Media Mafia's wet dream. (Yes, these are the same rapacious > > > folks who are demanding that the Boy Scouts and summer camps pay cash to > > > sing "God Bless America" and "Puff the Magic Dragon.") Opposed by the > > > American Library Association, EFF, and teachers' organizations, Leahy's > > > bill would slam fair use rights online and could make it a crime to > > > browse the Net without a license. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > | > We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ > and our property, because of the kind | > of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald > derives from this right, not from the | > arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From alanh at infi.net Mon Aug 26 23:10:54 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:10:54 +0800 Subject: "----- Message body suppressed -----" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Y'all Christians have a doozey of a verse in the Book of (forget which) where they talk abnout the local Israelite babes lusting after the foreign pagan lads because they have horse-sized equipments. From perry at piermont.com Mon Aug 26 23:12:39 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:12:39 +0800 Subject: The POUCH In-Reply-To: <960826234448_76473.1732_BHT119-3@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: <199608270104.VAA27340@jekyll.piermont.com> "JOHN E. HOLT" writes: > The Pouch uses a 64 x 64 block product cipher, a 1024 bit random > initialization vector and the CBC technique. Most experts agree > that such an implementation is highly resistant to all forms of > cryptographic attack. Thats just plain wrong. Some block ciphers are highly resistant. Some block ciphers crack open like eggs. Being a "block product cipher" doesn't in any way make you "highly resistant to all forms of cryptographic attack". > An unpublished algorithm forces them into reverse engineering the computer > programs to learn the algorithm. The principle in the modern world of crypto is that your cipher must be resistant to attack even if the attacker knows all details of it. Furthermore, the principle in buying crypto is to know that 99% of crypto on the market is junk, and that if you can't find out how it works its probably not any good at all. Perry From Adamsc at io-online.com Mon Aug 26 23:12:51 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:12:51 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: <19960827042758906.AAA215@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:26:04 -0500, John Deters wrote: >>What do cypherpunks think about the following practice or law (I realize >>that it may be impossible to implement): each email message should carry >>a little digicash check for, say, 20 cents. Mail reading programs should >>reject (send back unread) all messages not carrying these digital >>checks, unless the senders are in the "friends list". The MUAs should >>ask users whether they want to "cash" the digital check or not. > >I do not believe it is possible to have a secure executable that exists on >an uncontrolled user's machine. "Tamperproof" encryption chips still >require communications in and out from the user's program. A determined >attacker could continue to use the pieces of their code that talk to the >encryption chip. >Never underestimate the allure of "free money" when you're planning to >give >it away. Methinks you don't understand e-cash. It's not executable, and uses public key crypto to prevent "minting". It uses records to prevent replays. In other words, it'd be like Ed McMahon including a quarter in the envelope. You'd only be able to use it once.... / If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. / Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp / Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" / Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 / Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Aug 26 23:21:03 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:21:03 +0800 Subject: NSA's Venona Intercepts In-Reply-To: <199608262018.NAA02361@netcom8.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Bill Frantz wrote: > At 10:49 AM 8/26/96 -0600, Rick Smith wrote: > >One question that I haven't found answered in my perusals of the site is a > >definitive statement of the cryptographic technology used by the Soviets. > > I haven't revisited the site to check, but I distinctly remember a > statement to the effect that the system was a one time pad system. > However, due to a mistake somewhere in the chain, some of the one time pads > were used twice. The resulting two time pad system gave NSA the wedge they > needed to recover what they have. I seem to recall an exhibit on Verona including a proported Soviet OTP at the National Cryptologic Museum in MD. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting > (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. > frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA > > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From drifter at c2.net Mon Aug 26 23:21:21 1996 From: drifter at c2.net (Drifter) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:21:21 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption Message-ID: <3221922d.3171340@c2.org> I'm aware of the three main disk encryption programs SFS, SECDRV, and SECDEV, but I need to find a solution that works with Windows 95 32bit or Windows NT 4.0. I'm currently using SFS 1.17 and Secure Drive under Win-95, but am unable to continue to work in dos compatability mode due to severe performance hits. I am open to commercial products that have passed peer review, but know of none. If anyone could suggest a solution (outside of switching OS's), I would be *most* gratefull. Please respond to the list, as I am a subscriber under another account. The Drifter From adam at homeport.org Mon Aug 26 23:23:14 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:23:14 +0800 Subject: Whistleblowing on the Internet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608270353.WAA25380@homeport.org> Geoffrey Gussis wrote: | Overall, I am quite surprised that there isn't a whistleblowing | clearinghouse on the Internet; a site sponsored by a non-profit that lists | email addresses and secure forms for sending anonymized email to those | areas of the public and private sector that deal with whistleblowing. As | the Internet is a great medium for information dissemination, and offers | significant privacy advantages, I really expected to find much more. Such a clearinghouse is what we call a fat target; something likely to attract attention since wiretapping it could be very useful to an organization that worried about having a whistleblower. As such, the correct attitude towords whistleblowing is to use an anonymous remailer, and send to interested parties. That's how the AT&T deal that sunk the des phones and made clipper a household word was publicized; a member of the list(?) interested party sent a number of interesting documents through remailers to cypherpunks. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From cmcurtin at ee.net Mon Aug 26 23:25:16 1996 From: cmcurtin at ee.net (C Matthew Curtin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:25:16 +0800 Subject: libelous action In-Reply-To: <960826212342_76473.1732_BHT114-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: <199608270042.UAA04986@goffette.research.megasoft.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "JOHN" == JOHN E HOLT <76473.1732 at CompuServe.COM> writes: JOHN> Dear Mr. Curtin JOHN> Your statements about myself and my product, The JOHN> POUCH are defamatory. Since they have been made in writing and JOHN> shown to and seen by other parties on the Internet, they JOHN> constitute libel. Please admit to all parties that you have no JOHN> personal knowledge of my product capabilities or my personal JOHN> character or reputation. Failure to do so at once will result JOHN> in legal action against you personally and Megasoft. As my signature said, I speak only for myself. I am not a representative of Megasoft in any official capacity. That which I have posted does not represent the views of Megasoft, its employees, its shareholders, its customers, its business partners, its landlord, its employees' mothers, and is in no way representative of any person living or dead, other than myself. I have no knowledge of JOHN E HOLT <76473.1732 at CompuServe.COM>. The only knowledge I have of THE POUCH is its web site, found at http://www.flagler.com/security.html On 18 August 1996, I posted to the Cypherpunks mailing list, a note regarding THE POUCH, which included this paragraph: If it is any good, there's no way for us to know. But your marketing of the product has every indication that it's nothing more than smoke and mirrors. To coin a phrase, "pseudocrypto." I, speaking only on behalf of myself, stand by this statement. I do not apologize for my comments. If you, Mr. Holt, feel that this is a personal attack against you, I regret that you've misunderstood the tone and nature of my post. My statement is hardly libelous; I simply observed that if your product is truly secure, there is no means by which security experts can verify such claims. Study of computer security has shown that obscurity (using unpublished algorithms, for example) is not "security." By perpetuating confusion between the two terms, nonexpert users of crypographic software are hard pressed to make good decisions about what they use, and the risks of the software they're using. Hiding the internals of such software, claiming that it is "highly resistant to all known forms of cryptographic attack," is, in my opinion, irresponsible marketing. It is my hope that future marketing endeavors of THE POUCH will be more open and straightforward in its approach to security, providing evidence of a crystal-box architecture, whose security can be more objectively determined by potential customers. Hiding a paper from me by putting it somewhere in New York City is obscurity. If you hide a paper from me by putting it in a safe, and then give me the safe, and the technical documentation of the safe's locking mechanism, and I still can't get the paper, then *that* is security. (And, by the way, I think you'll find insisting that I somehow retract my statements, rather than prove me wrong by showing the quality of your product, will likely further add to the suspicion that the security of THE POUCH cannot be proven.) - -- C Mattew Curtin cmcurtin at ee.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Have you encrypted your data today? iQCVAwUBMiJEYRhyYuO2QvP9AQFPmwQAgimf3IhoX4wMPPNk7JY9nlFDJG2K/gO3 Xnd7ygPYAhz4BRaEl6SAaOOWiKjBA1l5EI5GhZdTL0WIWdKQv5MJROElzTVcY7nx Tq1wysgTRTLjt7XQS2FyIa1S7OSvyhJttAslbJjpl+PqCwT18bhr3Oh9Cp2g1LRq sNxdtB1BtQQ= =I28g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rwright at adnetsol.com Mon Aug 26 23:28:53 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:28:53 +0800 Subject: libelous action Message-ID: <199608270323.UAA13852@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Sirs: If I was John E. Holt, I would take a different public relations tack. I would seek positive input, not a negative reaction to criticism. Or I would ignore the critique altogether. Ross Wright On Or About: 26 Aug 96, 22:29, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > demonstrate that. If Mr. Holt would like to sue me, he's invited to. > I'm sure he'll be at least as likely to follow up as Karl Denninger > or "Dr." Fred C. Cohen. > > Perry > > C Matthew Curtin writes: > > JOHN> Dear Mr. Curtin > > JOHN> Your statements about myself and my product, The > > JOHN> POUCH are defamatory. Since they have been made in writing > > and JOHN> shown to and seen by other parties on the Internet, they > > JOHN> constitute libel. Please admit to all parties that you have > > no JOHN> personal knowledge of my product capabilities or my > > personal JOHN> character or reputation. Failure to do so at once > > will result JOHN> in legal action against you personally and > > Megasoft. > [...] > > I, speaking only on behalf of myself, stand by this statement. I > > do not apologize for my comments. If you, Mr. Holt, feel that this > > is a personal attack against you, I regret that you've > > misunderstood the tone and nature of my post. My statement is > > hardly libelous; I simply observed that if your product is truly > > secure, there is no means by which security experts can verify > > such claims. > From unicorn at schloss.li Mon Aug 26 23:36:39 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:36:39 +0800 Subject: The POUCH In-Reply-To: <960826234448_76473.1732_BHT119-3@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: On 26 Aug 1996, JOHN E. HOLT wrote: > The Pouch uses a 64 x 64 block product cipher, a 1024 bit random initialization > vector and the CBC technique. Most experts agree that such an implementation is highly resistant to all forms of cryptographic attack. > Hellman and Dilfie rely on knowing the algorithm for their known plain text attacks > An unpublished algorithm forces them into reverse engineering the computer > programs to learn the algorithm. The POUCH has many roadblocks built in > to prevent this. > I refer to Cummings, Cryptography and Data Security pages 150 and 98 in this regard. > John Holt Yes fine, but with an untested algorithm how do you propose to provide for peer review, or do you propose that the authors of "The Pouch" are too expert to need/require the input of fellow professionals? -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From jimbell at pacifier.com Mon Aug 26 23:43:43 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:43:43 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" Message-ID: <199608270304.UAA07482@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:50 AM 8/26/96 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:23:57 -0400 >From: Jonah Seiger >To: Declan McCullagh >Cc: shabbir at vtw.org, fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu, brock at well.com, > telstar at wired.com >Subject: Re: INFO: Democratic convention chats online! Be there! (8/25/96) >Declan: >In a world where we have very few real friends, I simply don't understand >what you are trying to accomplish. It's fine (and healthy) to raise >concerns about the particular positions a member of Congress takes (hell, I >don't agree with everything Leahy does), but to simply dismiss Leahy as a >'no friend of the Net' is naive and counterproductive. > >Look at the record. Leahy is hands down the strongest supporter of the Net >in Congress. Period. No other Member (including our small but growing >handful of other friends like Burns, White, Wyden, Cox, Eshoo, etc) has >been a more forceful or consistent advocate for your causes for as long as >Leahy has. What exactly do you want? Perhaps we should elect you to >Congress and see how well you can do. Leahy's crypto bill sucked, bigtime. The portion of the bill criminalizing the use of encryption that had the effect of thwarting a government investigation is classic, "foot in the door" creeping government manipulation. I was particularly disgusted to notice that a number of the traditional net-freedom organizations rushed to announce that they were in favor of that bill, without even a few days of analysis, and did not retract or even restrict that support when a more careful study (specifically, that of Peter Junger) showed how seriously flawed it was. Indeed, I never saw another analysis that purported to defend Leahy's bill, despite the fact that it would have been the responsibility of any organization which claimed support of it to prepare one. I believe that it is particularly suspicious that these bills come into existance without even cursory "vetting" on the Internet. Both the Leahy bill and even the Burns crypto bill popped into public view without any indication of how they were written, or any public input on their intent and scope. Perhaps this "take it or leave it" practice is old hat to politicians, but frankly I'm disgusted at politicians' presumption that they can prepare a law with no identifiable input from the public. I am similarly disgusted at any organization (even if, ostensibly, acting in support of "net freedom") that assisted in the development of the Leahy crypto bill (and to some extent, even the Burns bill) because they clearly failed to solicit the kind of public input that such bills should automatically get. And in a sense, "the Net" doesn't NEED "strong supporters": what we need are politicians who are willing to LEAVE US ALONE! It should come as no surprise that the call you frequently see among net-freedom- supporters for new legislation is that which repeals existing restrictive laws, such as ITAR and censorship laws. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From markm at voicenet.com Tue Aug 27 00:44:18 1996 From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:44:18 +0800 Subject: pgpcrack v0.99b Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've finally gotten around to adding secret key cracking support to pgpcrack. There also have been a few minor code changes to speed things up a bit. The source and cooresponding signature are located at http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/pgpcrack.html. Bug reports and suggestions are, as always, welcome. - -- Mark PGP encrypted mail prefered. Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348 http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMiJ0WCzIPc7jvyFpAQGaKAgAg5x5U26uy1JJYv2lVKSHItFYOuTVa+qL EBL39NsscrZCuPSYmmm75AgjBJFR4giQ9mDA4QYvxg7Es1O7guX9oq5NHGowLGHH uJblF2pA6T+faQto3oJ0sVLJ4EyekRW0tZWz+TjIUO/c9ijWnciXJuIZ8YAJJRHO 2la92IFiy9d6hab2p7lvQn6MOB0mHjioS1iWvOTaqHpkpjRQm5GSbWA7Hx913LeE sAZM4FkI+KyujaatbuDjpemZ9R04BOmE4aDHuDY3TYAThWUz9sFpQuB8a0fe6Gwi GupMq1dsovbmtO7AOKeoo7l4va/0l6Pmji5/5cInKHftNbE+1sHaTg== =nxzL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From perry at piermont.com Tue Aug 27 00:44:28 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:44:28 +0800 Subject: libelous action In-Reply-To: <199608270042.UAA04986@goffette.research.megasoft.com> Message-ID: <199608270229.WAA27445@jekyll.piermont.com> Mr. Curtin; You are too kind. I suspect that 'The Pouch' is a piece of junk, although the lack of public disclosure makes it impossible to demonstrate that. If Mr. Holt would like to sue me, he's invited to. I'm sure he'll be at least as likely to follow up as Karl Denninger or "Dr." Fred C. Cohen. Perry C Matthew Curtin writes: > JOHN> Dear Mr. Curtin > JOHN> Your statements about myself and my product, The > JOHN> POUCH are defamatory. Since they have been made in writing and > JOHN> shown to and seen by other parties on the Internet, they > JOHN> constitute libel. Please admit to all parties that you have no > JOHN> personal knowledge of my product capabilities or my personal > JOHN> character or reputation. Failure to do so at once will result > JOHN> in legal action against you personally and Megasoft. [...] > I, speaking only on behalf of myself, stand by this statement. I do > not apologize for my comments. If you, Mr. Holt, feel that this is a > personal attack against you, I regret that you've misunderstood the > tone and nature of my post. My statement is hardly libelous; I simply > observed that if your product is truly secure, there is no means by > which security experts can verify such claims. From nul at void.gov Tue Aug 27 01:54:35 1996 From: nul at void.gov (The Prisoner) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:54:35 +0800 Subject: The POUCH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32229A88.5F7E@void.gov> > > On 26 Aug 1996, JOHN E. HOLT wrote: > > > The Pouch uses a 64 x 64 block product cipher, a 1024 bit random initialization > > vector and the CBC technique. Most experts agree that such an implementation is highly resistant to all forms of cryptographic attack. > > Hellman and Dilfie rely on knowing the algorithm for their known plain text attacks > > An unpublished algorithm forces them into reverse engineering the computer > > programs to learn the algorithm. The POUCH has many roadblocks built in > > to prevent this. There's another live one on sci.crypt, about "market leader" Genio USA; some good chuckles there. Check out http://www.geniousa.com/genio/ Where's that snakeoil FAQ? Any progress? From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 27 01:54:56 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:54:56 +0800 Subject: Hackers invade DOJ web site Message-ID: <199608270627.XAA02547@toad.com> At 08:35 PM 8/20/96 -0700, some anonym remailer user wrote: >All webservers (except maybe Spinner?) are riddled with buffer overrun >bugs and other similar security holes. If you run a webserver, you >should basically assume that anyone who really wants a shell on your >machine can get one. Grab your favorite webserver and grep for >sprintf. Fred Cohen put out an 80-line-C GET-only HTTP server which is short enough to verify that it doesn't have security bugs like memory leaks, etc. It's not blazingly fast, and all it does is server pages, but it's clean. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 27 01:55:50 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:55:50 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 18 Aug 1996 [SATELLITES] Message-ID: <199608270627.XAA02553@toad.com> At 12:35 AM 8/21/96 -0800, mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) wrote: >You want to avoid moving parts like the plague in orbit. They eventually >wear out or fail and once that happens you have a very expensive piece of >junk in orbit. Solid-state storage is the _only_ way to go if you want to >avoid things like neding to pressurize the drive (eliminating any cost >advantage over solid-state.) Why do you need to pressurize the drive? Most hard disk drives for the last N years have been airtight sealed containers, haven't they? (Removables are different, of course.) I'd worry far more about the stresses of launch bothering the drives. > Its not like you can go up to swap a dead drive > out you know... You do obviously want RAID and/or mirrored drives. > Solid-state Most government space computer equipment has expensive RAD-hardended RAM; it's much cheaper and probably more effective to just use conventional RAM with ECC and shield it a bit. At least at one time, the most powerful computer on the Space Shuttle was the Compaq 386/25 laptop that one of the astronauts brought along for some non-mission-critical work; most of the built-in computers were 1 MIPS or less. >The big problem is that no one has data that is worth protecting enough to >make such a venture pay off. Yup. Ego would be a good motivation, if you know somebody with enough spare cash :-) While it would be nice to have satellites around all the time, even one or two smallsats could provide services on a several-times-daily basis which would be enough to do private email. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Aug 27 02:12:13 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:12:13 +0800 Subject: libelous action In-Reply-To: <199608270229.WAA27445@jekyll.piermont.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > > Mr. Curtin; > > You are too kind. I suspect that 'The Pouch' is a piece of junk, > although the lack of public disclosure makes it impossible to > demonstrate that. If Mr. Holt would like to sue me, he's invited > to. I'm sure he'll be at least as likely to follow up as Karl > Denninger or "Dr." Fred C. Cohen. > > Perry > > C Matthew Curtin writes: > > JOHN> Dear Mr. Curtin > > JOHN> Your statements about myself and my product, The > > JOHN> POUCH are defamatory. Since they have been made in writing and > > JOHN> shown to and seen by other parties on the Internet, they > > JOHN> constitute libel. Please admit to all parties that you have no > > JOHN> personal knowledge of my product capabilities or my personal > > JOHN> character or reputation. Failure to do so at once will result > > JOHN> in legal action against you personally and Megasoft. > [...] > > I, speaking only on behalf of myself, stand by this statement. I do > > not apologize for my comments. If you, Mr. Holt, feel that this is a > > personal attack against you, I regret that you've misunderstood the > > tone and nature of my post. My statement is hardly libelous; I simply > > observed that if your product is truly secure, there is no means by > > which security experts can verify such claims. As an attorney I can say that not only would I happily represent anyone Mr. Holt sued for libel, but I would consider my contingency fee a free lunch. I wouldn't even bother preparing for the pre-trial hearing. Truth, afterall, is an absolute defense to libel. Your threat to sue is, clearly, merely an attempt to stifle any effort to criticize your product. I believe a more accurate legal view is that you are committing fraud by misrepresenting "The Pouch" as a more potent implementation than it really is. You state: > The Pouch uses a 64 x 64 block product cipher, a 1024 bit random > initialization vector and the CBC technique. Most experts agree that > such an implementation is highly resistant to all forms of cryptographic > attack. This position has been refuted by at least one expert on this list. I would remind you that each and every sale you make of this product, when based on material misrepresentation, constitutes a fraud. If made by wire, as these sales seem they may, they represent wire fraud. That's one count of fraud and one count of wire fraud. If a check is sent to you via mail, that's a count of mail fraud to boot. As you have been warned now of the flaws in your system, I don't think you have much of a defense unless you can produce some experts to support your own view of the cipher. I won't hold my breath. I am constantly amazed that people advertize new crypto products on this list and then whine when they are literally decimated as to their technical merit. Go sell to children if your product can't stand the intelligence of adults. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From alano at teleport.com Tue Aug 27 02:20:53 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:20:53 +0800 Subject: [noise] Re: Cypherpunk voting - ITAR or CDA Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960826233512.00bb673c@mail.teleport.com> Jim Ray wrote: >If the Republican candidate had been Forbes, there might have been a "don't >let the great be the enemy of the good" argument against voting >Libertarian. If Forbes was the current Republican canidate, the nation would be spending itself into debt dealing with all of the therapy bills resulting from their childrens minds being irreversably damaged from looking at the Forbe's smile on the news every night. Forbes looks to me like H.P. Lovecraft tried to design a cannidate. What Eldrich bargains has he made to get to any sort of public acceptance with a smile like that? > As it stands now, Dole is, at best, arguably the "lesser of 2 >evils," which still comes out evil in my book. As the designated partisan >Libertarian on the list, I urge all cypherpunks to vote their consciences >and pick Harry Browne and Jo Jorgensen. The mere fact that the media is >[grudgingly] covering us suggests we are finally doing something right, and >Harry is winning many Internet polls despite much fawning, hopeful coverage >for the big-eared billionaire hypocrite stealth-candidate, who has no >position but certainly would enjoy having the TLAs investigate his enemies. I have seen little to no coverage of the Libretarians this (or any) year. And even less coverage than usual now that they have a canidate who is even worth voting for. (I guess I won't vote for Pat Paulsen after all...) As for the Perotbots... Maybe someone should tell them what "perot" means in French. >I fully accept that it is likely Dole or Clinton will win, but I think it >will fill an important cypherpunk goal if the Libertarian Party candidates >get a vote large enough to be the margin of victory, and I will be very >proud of my vote, no matter who wins this election. Vote your consciences >for your own sake, and the sake of the children who will inherit the debt >of the irresponsible statists in power now. And if Dole wins and dies in office, they could just pickle him and no one would notice. It would not be the first time we had a dill-dole running the country. --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com "| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From bf578 at scn.org Tue Aug 27 02:21:53 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:21:53 +0800 Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) MSoft's reply... Message-ID: <199608270144.SAA18367@scn.org> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:49:33 -0700 From: Thomas Reardon Subject: Re: Internet Explorer security problem (Felten, RISKS-18.36) >We have discovered a security flaw in the current version (3.0) of >Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser running under Windows 95. An >attacker could exploit the flaw to run any DOS command on the machine >of an Explorer user who visits the attacker's page. We now post the virus warning dialog on local files (file: urls). We have always posted it on remote files (http: urls). Note that the root of the problem is not Java or the browser, but in macro-enabled applications. IE3 has a mechanism to warn users about safety of documents when used with common macro-enabled applications. We are have updated Microsoft Word such that by default it will not run macros embedded in documents. -Thomas > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:35:07 GMT >Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) > >On Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:55:30 -0600 (MDT), Carl Nation > wrote: > >To our Resellers/Customers, > >Our sysadmin received this security alert, and we thought we should >pass it along... > >------- Forwarded Message > >Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:12:59 -0400 >From: felten at CS.Princeton.EDU (Ed Felten) >Subject: Internet Explorer Security Problem > >We have discovered a security flaw in the current version (3.0) of >Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser running under Windows 95. An >attacker could exploit the flaw to run any DOS command on the machine of >an Explorer user who visits the attacker's page. For example, the >attacker could read, modify, or delete the victim's files, or insert a >virus or backdoor entrance into the victim's machine. We have verified >our discovery by creating a Web page that deletes a file on the machine of >any Explorer user who visits the page. > >The core of the attack is a technique for delivering a document to the >victim's browser while bypassing the security checks that would >normally be applied to the document. If the document is, for example, a >Microsoft Word template, it could contain a macro that executes any DOS >command. > >Normally, before Explorer downloads a dangerous file like a Word >document, it displays a dialog box warning that the file might contain a >virus or other dangerous content, and asking the user whether to abort the >download or to proceed with the download anyway. This gives the user a >chance to avoid the risk of a malicious document. However, our technique >allows an attacker to deliver a document without triggering the dialog >box. > >Microsoft has been notified and they are working on fixing the >problem. Until a remedy is widely available, we will not disclose further >details about the flaw. > >For more information, contact Ed Felten at felten at cs.princeton.edu or >609-258-5906. > >Dirk Balfanz and Ed Felten >Dept. of Computer Science, Princeton University >http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/ > >------- End of Forwarded Message > > > > > -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From rp at rpini.com Tue Aug 27 02:23:02 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:23:02 +0800 Subject: cryptocd grabbing material Message-ID: <9608270702.AA28238@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 27 09:01:57 1996 If anyone out there knows of anything I should (and am allowed to) put on the cryptocd (check www.rpini.com/crypto/cryptocd.html), let me know. If anyone out there knows of anything I MUSTN'T put on the cryptocd (due to copyright, law or whatsnot), let me know also. Thanks, Remo Pini - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMiKdZhFhy5sz+bTpAQEg9gf9EY+SvhGMW1iKB+2U0JVNs3zDqGPNkYpJ zM9WW2oxTtTWn4znjMTXWEVAbGzmdZCkmgHsN3tFWwkWxIYxXrfFcInPNqCzxcXG DZHcQ2nNkH1MOnQ0Wzp9l9riz8TBCzbZNtJsPoVKMup6qAGLV6ninCrAKBGaQJmY 1KR3yez3OVq04SkRXUjXKQRjwtKH2OWmZfzSormEwphHvjgE0nPJhLB9gnVDevTw lSY3YP2NBPtIlaJbxohkvro8Mm+FGIk2vVoOY6cXwFcpZWONtyiwZPiYQzFfcOzw yjbIzGU8qU5MH58MeS/wZuTVzHhtmRl7lCLYS2xPH73ZpgvUh3ZDsw== =LGSU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody at replay.com Tue Aug 27 02:35:02 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:35:02 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608270711.JAA08793@basement.replay.com> On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Geoffrey Gussis wrote: > Overall, I am quite surprised that there isn't a whistleblowing > clearinghouse on the Internet; a site sponsored by a non-profit that lists > email addresses and secure forms for sending anonymized email to those > areas of the public and private sector that deal with whistleblowing. As > the Internet is a great medium for information dissemination, and offers > significant privacy advantages, I really expected to find much more. http://www.greatworld.com/ Used to have a whole pile of web accessable databases dealing with political corruption, crooked cops, government waste, and a database of alleged child molesters... I beleive the site had to be shut down due to massive abuse, though. The sponsor of the site was/is a guy named Tony Gatlin, his phone number was/is 615-859-3710. The company he worked for was/is called Self Test Software (selftestsoftware.com), but the company web page is defunct now as well. I'm guessing a massive libel suit led to his untimely dissapearance from the net, but i could be wrong.. I'd say that he could probably contribute a paragraph or two on the problems facing people who try to engage in "whistle-blowing" on the net, and could give a few good reasons why you aren't finding more services dealing with this sort of thing. Anonymity is great, if you really have something to say, but unfortunately for many people anonymity is nothing but a tool to injure others with impunity. "Peaceful confrontation, meet war machine." -Slayer "This time, I'm voting with a bullet." -Corrosion of Conformity From apache at quux.apana.org.au Tue Aug 27 02:58:20 1996 From: apache at quux.apana.org.au (Charles Senescall) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:58:20 +0800 Subject: Threat to Australian internet WAS Re: USPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Bruce M. wrote: If u think this is a worry, u should take a look at what the government owned monoploly telco here in Australia is doing.. On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Bruce M. wrote: > On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote: > > > Once in place all the goverment needs to do is ban all e-mail not sent > > through their system. Add this to the outlawing of all non-keyescrowed > > encryption, and the ability to archive all messages sent through their > > system. Now the goverment would have total access to everything you > > wright. > > Why not? I believe it is already illegal to place anything in a > person's physical mail box that the post office hasn't processed. For > the sake of preserving the 'integrity and security' of the Internet I > can see the govt. taking such future actions. Or 'they' can use our Telco (Tel$tra) 's approach and introduce _timecharged_ local data calls as it is trying to do here in Australia. What better or easier way to destroy our meagre outlet for free speech than to cost it out of existance. See Stewart Fist's excellent article on the subject currently available on "The Australian" newspapers site: See also draft legislation at and Universal Telco Service Obligations at (many references) They took our firearms last month..they're comin back for the net this month. -- .////. .// Charles Senescall apache at quux.apana.org.au o:::::::::/// Fuck TEL$TRA >::::::::::\\\ Finger me for PGP PUBKEY Brisbane AUSTRALIA '\\\\\' \\ http://quux.apana.org.au/~apache/ DO something for your country: Butt slap a politician this xmas From choi at virtu.sar.usf.edu Tue Aug 27 04:17:11 1996 From: choi at virtu.sar.usf.edu (Charles Choi) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:17:11 +0800 Subject: LACC: Metacomputing : got it from EurekAlert Message-ID: Metacomputing: Sharing Hardware Could Put Cash in Your Pocket While you're asleep, your home computer signs onto the Internet and looks for work. By morning, it's done complex calculations for a scientist in London, designed an ad for an Arizona business--and fattened up your bank account. This scenario--called metacomputing--could become a reality in the very near future, says Baruch Awerbuch, a professor of computer science at The Johns Hopkins University. He is studying the economics of sharing computer power over the Internet, including pricing and marketing issues. There is money to be earned, Awerbuch says, by tapping the enormous power that lies dormant while computer owners are asleep, at lunch or merely away from their terminals. At such times, these computers could earn extra cash by doing remote work for researchers or business owners in other locations. People who need extra computing horsepower or special equipment for a one-time project will line up to lease time on these idle machines, Awerbuch believes, because renting someone else's computer costs far less than buying a new one. "It makes huge economic sense," Awerbuch says. "For example, if once in a lifetime you want to use a fancy program that only runs on a particular piece of hardware, why do you need to buy this piece of hardware? Instead, you could lease a cycle on that machine in exchange for some economic favor. The opportunities are endless." Most of the technology to share hardware over telephone lines or some other network already exists. What's needed, the researcher says, is a system for buying and selling cycles of time on idle machines, along with safeguards to make sure "renters" can't pry into an owner's files. It will also require a change in the close attachment most people feel toward their computers. "People are accustomed to using only the machines that they've purchased," Awerbuch says. "They're not used to using machines that are not their own. Yet it seems silly to invest lots of money to buy more computing power when all you have to do is utilize what's already out there. Think of it this way: 90 percent of the computing power in the world is inaccessible to people, simply because we haven't set up the right mechanism to help one another." Here's how that mechanism might work, Awerbuch says: An accountant owns a PC. It crunches numbers perfectly but can't handle the elaborate graphic design work needed to create a splashy business brochure. The accountant posts a note on the Internet, offering 50 cents a minute any time that week for remote use of a Macintosh computer with graphics software. If the brochure is needed within the next hour or two, the accountant might offer $5 a minute for immediate access. A Macintosh owner, or an unattended machine that searches the Internet for work whenever it is idle, responds. The accountant takes temporary control over the Mac terminal, which might be located anywhere in the world. When the project is completed, the accountant issues an electronic payment for the time. This same system could allow a hospital to lease time on powerful computers elsewhere for demanding jobs such a medical imaging. Other companies could break complex tasks into small pieces, then farm them to small outside computers. Hardware owners could also post notices on the Internet, describing their machines, hours of availability, memory capacity and software. People who are reluctant to loan their lawn mower to a neighbor may be even less inclined to let perfect strangers use their computers by remote control. But Awerbuch believes these transactions can be sound and profitable. "This sharing should not be viewed as an altruistic thing, nor as some kind of a Communist idea, where you don't own anything personally and you must share with other people," he says. "To the contrary, this is purely an entrepreneurial arrangement, where you trade what you own in exchange for cash or some other economic benefit. The policies and approaches will be totally up to the individuals or companies or whoever is doing it. It could be quite interesting to see this electronic marketplace in action." This research, by Awerbuch and co-principal investigator Yair Amir, assistant professor of computer science at Hopkins, is funded entirely by a $1 million three-year federal grant from the Advanced Research Project Agency, Technology Management Office. Johns Hopkins University news releases can be found on the World Wide Web at http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/ In addition, Johns Hopkins University science and medical news releases can be accessed on-line through the following services: CompuServe in the SciNews-MedNews library of the Journalism Forum under file extensions ".JHM" or ".JHU"; also in NASW Online in the same forum. Quadnet: send email to: scitech at quadnet.vyne.com. In the body of the message type "info Quadnet." EurekAlert! at http://www.eurekalert.org Sincerely. Quentin Holte. ( aka Charles Choi. ) You are all the Buddha. - Last words of Buddha. If you see the Buddha, kill him. - Zen proverb. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 27 04:32:51 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:32:51 +0800 Subject: [noise]Re: The grey lady puts on some boots and rides a horseman or two... Message-ID: <199608270848.BAA04297@toad.com> Another interesting connection is that John Aristotle Phillips is the former Princeton student who designed an atom bomb as his junior physics project. (He wasn't a brilliant physicist - he was trying to save his grade point average by doing a good paper :-) Senator Feinstein, of course, is a leader in the "Bomb Info Off Lists" movement.... At 07:45 AM 8/22/96 -0700, Declan wrote: ... >I met Polly's father at the "Kids off Lists" press conference in front of >the Capitol in June. He's an irascable fellow, and there's more to the >story than you might think at first. ... >http://www.muckraker.com/muckraker/96/24/index3a.html .... >The report drove Representative Bob Franks (R-New Jersey) and Senator >Dianne Feinstein (D-California) to introduce the "Children's Privacy >Protection and Parental Empowerment Act." The idea is to keep kids' >names off direct marketing lists. It's a good concept, but it's short >on focus and long on fear - the fear that gathering such information >can lead to child abuse or worse. ...... >But there's a subplot here. The actual driving force and financial >backer of KOL is John Phillips, who runs Aristotle Publishing, a >political software company in Washington, DC. Phillips, as it turns >out, has been in a kind of run-and-shoot legal battle with Donnelley >for the past five years, according to an article in the Washington City >Paper, an alternative weekly published in DC. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From cea01sig at gold.ac.uk Tue Aug 27 07:53:41 1996 From: cea01sig at gold.ac.uk (Sean Gabb) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:53:41 +0800 Subject: Net Censorship in the Uk Message-ID: You may have seen this already. If so apologies. However, it is a blatant example of police oppression and stupidity. If nothing else, just imagine how much of the taxpayers' money it cost to decide whether alt.binaries.erotica.fetish.feet contravenes the Obscene Publications Act 1959. Sean Gabb Editor Free Life ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 15:44:45 BST From: Sean Gabb To: cea01sig at gold.ac.uk Subject: theMet.html LETTER FROM THE METROPOLITAN POLICE _________________________________________________________________ METROPOLITAN POLICE SERVICE Clubs and Vice Unit Charing Cross Police Station Agar Street London WC2N 4JP Telephone: 0171 321 7752 Facsimile: 0171 321 7762 To: All Internet Service Providers Dear Sir / Madam Pornographic Material on the Internet Further to the seminar held at New Scotland Yard on 2nd August I enclose, as promised by Superintendent Mike Hoskins, a list of those Newsgroups which we believe contain pornographic material. We have attempted to confirm that the Newsgroups listed currently contain this offensive material but as you will be only too aware the content is continually changing and you will need to satisfy yourself about the nature and content before taking any action. Furthermore, this list is not exhaustive and we are looking to you to monitor your Newsgroups identifying and taking necessary action against those others found to contain such material. As you will be aware the publication of obscene articles is an offence. This list is only the starting point and we hope, with the co-operation and assistance of the industry and your trade organisations, to be moving quickly towards the eradication of this type of Newsgroup from the Internet. At the seminar we debated the means of maintaining an up to date list and you will recall that ISPA volunteered to pool information and assist in this initiative. However, we are very anxious that all service providers should be taking positive action now, whether or not they are members of a trade association. We trust that with your co-operation and self regulation it will not be necessary for us to move to an enforcement policy. Yours Faithfully Stephen French Chief Inspector List alt.binaries.pictures.boys alt.binaries.pictures.child.erotica.female alt.binaries.pictures.child.erotica.male alt.binaries.pictures.children alt.binaries.pictures.erotic.children alt.binaries.pictures.erotica child alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.child.female alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.child.male alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.lolita alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pre-teen alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.teen.fuck alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.young alt.binaries.pictures.lolita.fucking alt.binaries.pictures.lolita.misc alt.sex.boys alt.sex.children alt.sex.fetish.tinygirls alt.sex.girls alt.sex.incest alt.sex.intergen alt.sex.pedophile.mike-labbe alt.sex.pedophilia. alt.sex.pedophilia.boys alt.sex.pedophilia.girls alt.sex.pedophilia.swaps alt.sex.pedophilia.pictures alt.sex.pre-teens alt.sex.teens alt.sex.weight-gain 0000000928 0000000418 y alt.fan.cock-sucking 0000001482 0000001311 y 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0000001078 y alt.sex.super-size 0000001987 0000000711 y alt.sex.tasteless 0000001003 0000000202 y alt.sex.teens 0000002394 0000000540 y alt.sex.video-swap 0000001363 0000000489 y alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.black.male 0000012581 0000012054 y alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children 0000005812 0000005117 y alt.sex.sm.fig 0000006729 0000004915 y _________________________________________________________________ From gary at systemics.com Tue Aug 27 08:05:02 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:05:02 +0800 Subject: The POOCH In-Reply-To: <960826234448_76473.1732_BHT119-3@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: <3222E9E9.237C228A@systemics.com> JOHN E. HOLT wrote: > > The Pouch uses a 64 x 64 block product cipher, a 1024 bit random initialization > vector and the CBC technique. Most experts agree that such an implementation > is highly resistant to all forms of cryptographic attack. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wow! Resistant to those not invented yet - I guess this means one of two things - the pooch is a OTP, or Mr. Holt has a time machine. > Hellman and Dilfie rely on knowing the algorithm for their known plain text attacks > An unpublished algorithm forces them into reverse engineering the computer > programs to learn the algorithm. The POUCH has many roadblocks built in > to prevent this. Wow! (again). Dongleless protection! I'm impressed. Now we don't need tamper resistant smart cards - we can do it all in software! Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 ^S ^A^Aoft FAT filesytem is extremely robust, ^Mrarely suffering from^T^T From pjb at ny.ubs.com Tue Aug 27 09:14:58 1996 From: pjb at ny.ubs.com (pjb at ny.ubs.com) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:14:58 +0800 Subject: NSA's Venona Intercepts Message-ID: <199608271315.JAA10821@sherry.ny.ubs.com> it is my understanding that the Venona traffic used a code book with super- encyption using a otp. the break was possible because the Soviet's got sloppy with the otp keys and in fact used some of them more than once. even then, it tooks years of work to make the breaks. everything you ever heard about using true random keys, and only once is true. difficult as it may be to accomplish, it is possible to break a otp if the pad isn't really 'one time'. -paul > From cypherpunks-errors at toad.com Mon Aug 26 18:14:44 1996 > X-Sender: smith at mailhost.sctc.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:49:39 -0600 > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > From: smith at sctc.com (Rick Smith) > Subject: NSA's Venona Intercepts > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com > Content-Length: 1510 > > The bulk of the material available from NSA's web site is associated with a > long time project called Venona to decrypt Soviet message traffic from the > 1940s. It's an interesting exhibition of the practical output of > cryptanalysis that, incidentally, contains alleged reference to famous > Commie spies of that era (Hiss, the Rosenbergs, etc). > > One question that I haven't found answered in my perusals of the site is a > definitive statement of the cryptographic technology used by the Soviets. I > was re-reading Kahn's 1967 chapter on Soviet crypto and he claimed that > they relied primarily on one time pads. In fact, he was pretty specific > about them using OTPs for exactly the type of traffic appearing in the > Venona archive. But when I look at the partial decrypts in the Venona > archive I don't understand how you'd get such partial decrypts from OTPs. > > The intercepts seem to indicate the use of ciphers with some codewords > weakly layerd on top. Some intercepts show translations based on the > phonetic properties of the extracted Russian plaintext. So I don't think > the "unrecovered codegroups" are caused by a classic code that substitutes > tokens for word meanings. But you're not going to crack only part of a OTP > ciphertext -- presumably you'd need a compromised key tape, and that would > either decrypt everything or nothing. > > So they were either really using rotor machines or they were using > something else. Any other ideas? Other references? > > Rick. > smith at sctc.com secure computing corporation > > > From steven at echonyc.com Tue Aug 27 09:58:50 1996 From: steven at echonyc.com (Steven Levy) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:58:50 +0800 Subject: Denning interview in Wired In-Reply-To: <199608261817.LAA03556@netcom11.netcom.com> Message-ID: This was not an interview, but an article. Though all quotes are accurate (and checked with the source) it was me who did the choosing, so it's really not fair to fault Dorothy for not addressing issues x and y, etc.For a more comprehensive defense of her position you can go to her web site, where she has lotsa position papers. Incidentally, I didn't set out to rehash the Clipper issues in the article, but to try to give some insight into Dorothy herself. On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > don't recall anyone mentioning this-- > Steven Levy did a lengthy piece on Dorothy Denning for the > recent Wired. > > any reactions? > > I was personally struck at how Dorothy seems to lack strong > convictions that hold up in the face of others. she wrote > a paper urging that hackers be studied and worked with by > the security community and then backed away from the position > quickly after talking to "authorities". > > > I was amazed that Dorothy, after a long time, has failed to > confront some very basic issues in her advocation of > Clipper: > > 1. constitutional issues. it would be ok for me if she described > why she thinks that privacy is not constitutionally protected, > but she fails to mention constitutionality issues in virtually > any of her writings. frankly this strikes me as the utmost > weasely evasion. is she aware of any court precedent on freedom > of speech, freedom to speak in private etc? she never quotes > any case law etc. > > 2. she fails to address the issue of "returns vs. cost" or > "cost/benefit" ratio. her argument amounts to an extremely > simplistic line, "law authorities have been stymied by crypto. therefore > it should be restricted". but this reminds me of speed limit > advocates saying, "55 saves lives". well, how many? 35 saves lives > over 55. the key issue is that of *compromise*: what is the optimum > compromise? we can catch more criminals by adding security cameras > everywhere, but what are the costs? > > such back-and-white thinking has > little place in any complex policy issue, yet unfortunately tends to > dominate them. it's very bizarre to see an academic like Denning > just seem to be vacuously oblivious to such simple concepts such > as "tradeoffs". nothing I've read suggests she has ever addressed > the issue of *compromise* in regard to catching criminals vs. > protecting rights. > > but amazingly, people like Kallstrom seem to think the same way. > paraphrased, "if even one criminal gets away because we didn't have enough > funding in the FBI, we need more funding in the FBI" etc. > > 3. she fails to address the "big brother" issue. why is wiretapping > never going to be used by "big brother"? it's inconceivable to me > how she can honestly evade this issue as well. she has never addressed > the issue of abuse by law authorities from what I can tell. > > 4. Denning seems to be to be remarkably swayed by "authority figures". > she has changed her opinion before based merely on conversations > with "authority figures" in the FBI and NSA. it seems maybe she has > a bit of "spook envy" or something like that. many of her arguments > for me essentially amount to, "people that claim to know what they > are doing say we need [x], therefore we need [x]" > > > well, I am not trying to start a new round of Denning-bashing > (although that's always fun, hee, hee) but the recent article does > give a little new food for thought about Denning's psychology etc. > > frankly I think that Denning has lost the intellectual battle because > she absolutely fails to address some of the above key points. (particularly > the total failure to address the constitution is getting more egregious). I > suggest that anyone who wants to debunk her line of thinking (which apparently > is getting to be awfully easy) just focus on any of the above areas. > she apparently has no reponse to these points in anything I have > read of hers. > > From jseiger at cdt.org Tue Aug 27 10:25:52 1996 From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 01:25:52 +0800 Subject: Net Politics Message-ID: At 6:52 PM 8/26/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Jonah, > >I had expected some negative feedback from CDT, but I should say I was >surprised by the tenor of your response. I am going to try and resist the tasty-looking flame bait you have dangled in front of me here because we both have more important things to deal with, and because Seth Finkelstein summed up this argument perfectly: "One more round of 'work within the system' vs 'up against the wall!'," he said. This is an important debate that unfortunately seems to be dividing the net.community when we most need to be united. All of us working on net-policy issues share a common vision and goals - promoting the free flow of information, preserving and enhancing First Amendment values and protecting individual privacy. There are, for better or worse, many different views on the best way to accomplish those objectives, and the debate over who has the right tactics seems to frequently escalate in to religious war. Meanwhile, our opponents are well organized, determined, and do a much better job of keeping their internal strategic differences to themselves. Perhaps this is part of the reason they keep kicking our butts all over town. Jonah ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE CONTINUES TO THE SUPREME COURT ** It's not too late to be a part of history -- Join the Lawsuit -- -- Jonah Seiger, Policy Analyst Center for Democracy and Technology 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20006 PGP Key via finger (v) +1.202.637.9800 http://www.cdt.org/ (f) +1.202.637.0968 http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/ From strange at tezcat.com Tue Aug 27 10:30:03 1996 From: strange at tezcat.com (Mike Scher) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 01:30:03 +0800 Subject: BoS: Nuke attack? No, bug in DNS! (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199605160122.BAA00187@fountainhead.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 May 1996, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > I think this is the main cause of all strange things happening on the > net for last few days. [quoting q quote of Karl Denninger:] > > > There are a series of bad nameserver records floating around on the net > > > which are blowing up BIND versions 4.9.4 (REL and T5B) and possibly other > > > releases as well. My employer experienced this problem -- I thought it was related to the cashe clearing problem in 4.9.4 on some platforms and upgraded to 4.9.4P1 (FreeBSD 2.1.0) -- which appears to have solved the problem for us. info-sys.home.vix.com:/pub/bind/release/4.9.4/bind-4.9.4-P1.tar.gz Not sure if it -really- fixes the problem or if we've been lucky since. -M Michael Brian Scher (MS683) | Anthropologist, Attorney, Part-Time Guru http://www.tezcat.com/~strange/ | strange at cultural.com strange at tezcat.com | mbscher at midway.uchicago.edu I'm a legal anthropologist; what's an illegal anthropologist? From dfloyd at io.com Tue Aug 27 10:38:19 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 01:38:19 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption In-Reply-To: <3221922d.3171340@c2.org> Message-ID: <199608271401.JAA04116@xanadu.io.com> > > I'm aware of the three main disk encryption programs SFS, SECDRV, and > SECDEV, but I need to find a solution that works with Windows 95 32bit > or Windows NT 4.0. > > I'm currently using SFS 1.17 and Secure Drive under Win-95, but am > unable to continue to work in dos compatability mode due to severe > performance hits. I am open to commercial products that have passed > peer review, but know of none. > > If anyone could suggest a solution (outside of switching OS's), I > would be *most* gratefull. > > Please respond to the list, as I am a subscriber under another > account. If you have another 386 or 486 lying around, you could install Linux and Ian's encrypted loopback code on a remote box, then NFS or Samba the filesystem over. For protection, you could modify the vlock command to lock the console (and not unlock it), and disable inetd. Then, unless someone has the permissions to access the files through the network, the files are inaccessable ;-). > > The Drifter > From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Tue Aug 27 11:01:27 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:01:27 +0800 Subject: Australian Interbet Betting System Gets US Interest 08/26/96 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960827150324.0076792c@206.33.128.129> >ALICE SPRINGS, AUSTRALIA, 1996 AUG 26 (NB) -- An American from Washington >DC has placed the first "Interbet" on the Australian Football League (AFL), >$250 for a win on North Melbourne to beat Geelong, with Alice Springs >bookmaker CentreBet which switched on its net-based computer betting >service last week. > >CentreBet has taken more than 70 bets on the Internet since launching the >worldwide service, approved by the Northern Territory Racing and Gaming >Authority. Alice Springs, colloquially known as "The Alice," is a small >community close to Ayers Rock in the central outback of Australia where >people are few and betting is a way of life. > >CentreBet's Gerard Daffy told the Australian Associated Press news service >he expects keen Interbet interest from Asians who are big fans of English >soccer and also from Americans whom he expects to bet on a variety of major >sporting events, starting with this week's US Open tennis and the upcoming >NFL season. > >However the AFL bet from America came right out of left field (AFL, or >Australian Rules football, a descendant of Ireland's Gaelic football, is >played seriously only in several Australian States, but is shown regularly >on some US cable-TV services). "The guy who put the bet on North Melbourne >is part of an Australian Rules fan club in the US," said Daffy. "There's >another American in Michigan who has opened an Interbet account to bet on >the AFL as well." > >For the record: the fan who bet on North Melbourne can forget his $250. >Geelong downed North Melbourne at the Melbourne Cricket Ground on Saturday >by 109 points to 96. > >CentreBet can be reached at http://www.taunet.com.au/centrebet > >(19960826) > > > _______________________ Regards, Politics is the art of preventing people from taking part in affairs which properly concern them. -Paul Valery Joseph Reagle http://rpcp.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle at mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E From smith at sctc.com Tue Aug 27 11:03:09 1996 From: smith at sctc.com (Rick Smith) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:03:09 +0800 Subject: NSA's Venona Intercepts Message-ID: At 12:26 AM 8/27/96, Black Unicorn wrote: >I seem to recall an exhibit on Verona including a proported Soviet OTP at >the National Cryptologic Museum in MD. Kahn's "Codebreakers" also has photos of OTPs captured from undercover Soviet spies. The fact that illegals were using OTPs to talk to their controllers didn't necessarily imply that messages from Soviet embassies and other offices needed to be using OTPs themselves. The could have used a good rotor machine (well, good for the era). But now I'm convinced they didn't. The whole thing makes sense if we're looking at cryptanalysis based on reused OTPs. I can see why the NSA doesn't mind letting the world know that they could crack reused OTPs as opposed to some other identifiable cipher technique. The degree of NSA's success doesn't help an adversary optimize their crypto technology. The decryption success is in direct proportion to how sloppy the Soviets were in using their OTPs. I'll bet some official got shot when this was all figured out. Partial decrypts occur when parts of the keystream are recovered and other parts are not. I wonder if one could compare the "holes" in the various messages and thereby infer which OTPs were used for which messages based on patterns of keystream recovery. Venona also presents an object lesson on why not to use OTPs: the security does not degrade gracefully if they are misused. Reusing one even once could easily compromise both messages sent with it. I doubt security degrades nearly as quickly if you overuse or reuse keys in more modern techniques. Thus, OTP keying requires a reliably pessimistic prediction of traffic flow, and your security is toast if you underestimate your transmission needs. Besides, given that nobody can crack a truly randomized OTP, I can see why NSA would want to publicize a failed use of OTPs. Might as well focus interest on more theoretically tractable techniques. Rick. From privsoft at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 27 13:22:40 1996 From: privsoft at ix.netcom.com (Steve O) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 04:22:40 +0800 Subject: FYI: GOP's Stolen Laptop... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960827112653.295f6afc@popd.ix.netcom.com> FYI: Front page of the New Jersey Star Ladger: "GOP's Stolen Laptop had credit card Details" NJ Republicans' convention info and card card numbers and info was on the laptop insecurely, a letter went oput to the NJ Republican committee informing them of the 'inconveince'. Several key Rebulican Reps' cards were among those stolen including: Dick ZImmer and Christopher Smith as well as the State Committee's credit card. etc... "True Utopia can only be reached by an uncensored and secure Internet, True Chaos can only be reached by the government, True love can only be reached in the movies." S.O. "Bang your head, Metal Health will drive you mad!" Quiet Riot "Welcome my friend, Welcome to The Machine" Pink Floyd -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzHF2iIAAAEEAKw9QZ8yNG0X1YOGvaYeLaOQphDSEFYxelYED8a4YKoxnHuX Wd7CPKXBS6Bhx9uGFpNa/7Km33TfhzJhuolHPb60upBIsNTdrkzVlSYyiE0aWuFt EORVWEG6Rmy9w2yZ8obQAIx9aAy7h1wDi2mdSrDH+rPBw0pXelhDCiQ5KnJpAAUR tCBTdGV2ZSBPIDxwcml2c29mdEBpeC5uZXRjb20uY29tPg== =J4Tk -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Tue Aug 27 13:23:54 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 04:23:54 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 18 Aug 1996 [SATELLITES] Message-ID: <199608271609.JAA12761@mail.pacifier.com> At 11:24 PM 8/26/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 12:35 AM 8/21/96 -0800, mccoy at communities.com (Jim McCoy) wrote: >>You want to avoid moving parts like the plague in orbit. They eventually >>wear out or fail and once that happens you have a very expensive piece of >>junk in orbit. Solid-state storage is the _only_ way to go if you want to >>avoid things like neding to pressurize the drive (eliminating any cost >>advantage over solid-state.) > >Why do you need to pressurize the drive? Most hard disk drives >for the last N years have been airtight sealed containers, >haven't they? (Removables are different, of course.) While I haven't looked at the more recent ones closely, most hard drives have an ultra-fine (<0.1 um particles?) filter element separating "inside" from "outside." It allows air to pass to equalize pressure and humidity, while keeping out the dust. (it is probably made of the same kind of material that is used, internally, as a filter for the airflow within the drive.) Even if they didn't, there is a big difference between an enclosure that's good enough to hold a hard disk on earth, and one which can spend N-years in a high vacuum yet maintain enough air to run a hard drive. > >I'd worry far more about the stresses of launch bothering >the drives. That's not a problem at all. Most modern drives are rated for 10's of G's, non-operating. Satellite launches are probably a breeze compared to this. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Aug 27 13:42:29 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 04:42:29 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608270158.UAA24640@homeport.org> Message-ID: <199608271620.LAA10933@manifold.algebra.com> Adam Shostack wrote: > > A few weeks back, I posted a request for source code review > guidelines. I got about 50 me-toos, but no guidelines. So I wrote > some I think are decent. They're still in draft format. I'd > appreciate feedback & commentary on them. > > http://www.homeport.org/~adam/review.html > Thanks for an interesting paper. In part " V.Code (Security Issues)/3.Data Checking" you say the following: `` Data coming in to Acme Widgets should be checked very carefully for appropriateness. This check should be to see if the data is what is expected (length, characters). Making a list of bad characters is not the way to go; the lists are rarely complete. A secure program should know what it expects, and reject other input. (For example, if you are looking for an email address, don't check to see if it contains a semi-colon or a newline, check to see if it contains anything other than a [A-Za-z0-9._] followed by an @, followed by a hostname [A-Za-z0-9._].)'' END QUOTE That is not entirely correct. An email address is much more than that, it can contain "!", several "@" characters (not next to each other though), "%", and so on. x400 mail addresses (?) can contain "/", "=", and all emails can have "+" and "-" and "_" in them. Some of the valid email addresses are user_name at company.com alex+ at pitt.edu mi%aldan.UUCP at algebra.com user%host.domain at anon.penet.fi host1!host2!user Look at your sendmail.cf file for a humongous amount of email parsing rules. Thanks for an excellent document though, I put a link to it from my intranet page. - Igor "Code Obscurity Creates Job Security" Chudov. From declan at eff.org Tue Aug 27 14:36:40 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 05:36:40 +0800 Subject: Cato Institute conference on Net-regulation, 9/20/96 Message-ID: This should be a good half-day conference, with some interesting speakers. I'll probably show up for Charles Platt's keynote. Naturally, it's being held in the building's Hayek Auditorium. Hayek has some relevance to cypherpunks, I think -- he warned early on that the loss of economic freedom inevitably leads to the loss of civil liberties as well. He also described the phenomenon of spontaneous order (admittedly in the context of markets), which speaks to the way the Net has ordered itself. -Declan // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:05:44 -0400 From: Solveig Bernstein To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Please redistribute this conference announcement freely: ********************************************************* Regulation or Private Ordering? The Future of the Internet The Cato Institute cordially invites you to a morning conference and luncheon Regulation or Private Ordering? The Future of the Internet Friday, September 20, 1996 8:30 a.m. 1:30 p.m. The Cato Institute's F.A. Hayek Auditorium 1000 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, DC The Internet promises users unprecedented individual control over information. It is at once a tool for universal communication, a new form of media, and a new way of doing business. But it is also a challenge to lawmakers and regulators. Existing laws cannot easily be applied to the Internet and appear doomed to failure. Do we need a new set of laws or will voluntary private action ensure order on the information superhighway? Cato's Regulation or Private Ordering? The Future of the Internet conference will bring together leading authorities on law, regulation, and technology to discuss the problems of adapting existing law to the Internet and to explore private alternatives to regulation. Can private ordering consistent with individual freedom forestall a government backlash against perceived Internet chaos? The cost of this conference is $25.00. Registration Wintergarden 8:30 8:35 a.m. Lawrence Gasman Welcoming Remarks Director, Telecommunications and Technology Studies, Cato Institute 8:35 9:20 a.m. JURISDICTIONAL BOUNDARIES David Post;Collective Action in Cyberspace" Georgetown University Law Center Dan Burk Federalism without Borders; Seton Hall University School of Law 9:20 10:30 a.m. FEDERAL REGULATORY ISSUES Robert Crandall; Rate Regulation and Arbitrage; Internet Telephony; Brookings Institution Trotter Hardy;Congress and Digital Copyright: Avoiding a Balancing Act;William & Mary College of Law Lori Fena;Security of Personal and Corporate Information Online: Moving toward Industry Self Regulation; Electronic Frontier Foundation 10:30 10:45 a.m. Break 10:45 11:55 a.m. FREE SPEECH IN CYBERSPACE Danny Weitzner; The Empowered User: Internet Technology Tools for Limiting Access to Unwanted Material; Protecting Privacy; Center for Democracy and Technology Eugene Volokh;Private Online Speech Controls: Censorship, Constitutionally Protected Editing, or Both? University of California at Los Angeles School of Law David Sobel;Prospects of the CDA in the Supreme Court; Electronic Privacy Information Center 12:30 p.m. Keynote Address - Charles Platt; Net Futures: Scary and Sublime; Author, Free Zone, The Silicone Man, Contributing Writer, Wired Magazine 12:30 p.m. Luncheon News media please call Robin Hulsey at (202) 789 5293. To Register, please e-mail Scott Wallis at swallis at cato.org, or vist our web site at //www:cato.org. ********************************************************************** Solveig Bernstein, Esq. (202) 789-5274 (202) 842-3490 (fax) Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies Cato Institute 1000 Mass. Ave. NW Washington, DC 20001 From jf_avon at citenet.net Tue Aug 27 14:39:58 1996 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 05:39:58 +0800 Subject: libelous action Message-ID: <9608271817.AB19462@cti02.citenet.net> On 26 Aug 96 at 20:28, Ross Wright wrote: > If I was John E. Holt, I would take a different public relations > tack. I would seek positive input, not a negative reaction to > criticism. Or I would ignore the critique altogether. > Ross Wright Yes Ross, but while writing this, your premise is that Holt has a product that is at least partially decent and that it could maybe be improved. You assume he might be making an honest error. Maybe it is not the case. ;) jfa DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee; Limoges porcelain, silverware and crystal JFA Technologies, R&D consultants: physicists, technologists and engineers. PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 From jleonard at divcom.umop-ap.com Tue Aug 27 14:40:35 1996 From: jleonard at divcom.umop-ap.com (Jon Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 05:40:35 +0800 Subject: MUD anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9608271647.AA22569@divcom.umop-ap.com> > Would anyone out there be interested in helping set up a > crypto-anarcho-capitalist MUD to play around with some of the social > aspects of crypto-anarchy and anarcho-capitalism? I can probably hack > together a basic lpmud in a month or two if someone has a machine which > it could run on and which could run a mailing list for those involved. I've been planning to run a MUD like that, at mud.umop-ap.com port 2121. I just don't have enough coded to be worth announcing yet. Which cryptographic primitives should be coded in initially? Obvious choices are: Pseudonyms Anonymous digital cash (issued by any pseudonym, not just "banks") Public and private keys Secret sharing Anonymous broadcast & message pools Anonymous markets (ref: Tim May's sig) What am I missing? Should there be direct support for Jim Bell's assasination markets? It'd provide a means of demonstrating its ineffectiveness as a means of social control. I think that for purposes of simulation, it's reasonable to model cryptographic primitives in a "Trust the server" mode, because you need to trust the MUD server anyway (unlike a government), and it puts a much lower load on the CPU. There's also the question of log policy. Having run a MUD for a few years, I want to keep logs for bug detection. A declared policy that they aren't released for n years would work though. Opinions, anyone? [snip] > Please send replies to me directly as I'm travelling and consequently off > the list. Looks like I'll be on a mad bus trip round New Zealand for most > of next month so Net access will be erratic. Sent to Cypherpunks as well, in case anyone else is interested. > Mark Jon Leonard From jad at dsddhc.com Tue Aug 27 14:41:46 1996 From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 05:41:46 +0800 Subject: Spamming Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960827180935.008cd398@labg30> At 09:27 PM 8/26/96 -0800, Adamsc wrote: >On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:26:04 -0500, John Deters wrote: > >>>What do cypherpunks think about the following practice or law (I realize >>>that it may be impossible to implement): each email message should carry >>>a little digicash check for, say, 20 cents. Mail reading programs should >>>reject (send back unread) all messages not carrying these digital >>>checks, unless the senders are in the "friends list". The MUAs should >>>ask users whether they want to "cash" the digital check or not. >> >>I do not believe it is possible to have a secure executable that exists on >>an uncontrolled user's machine. "Tamperproof" encryption chips still >>require communications in and out from the user's program. A determined >>attacker could continue to use the pieces of their code that talk to the >>encryption chip. > >>Never underestimate the allure of "free money" when you're planning to >give >>it away. > >Methinks you don't understand e-cash. It's not executable, and uses public key >crypto to prevent "minting". It uses records to prevent replays. In other >words, it'd be like Ed McMahon including a quarter in the envelope. You'd only >be able to use it once.... Maybe I misspoke; I wasn't referring to minting e-cash. I was referring to the fact that if you can get spammers to enclose a 20e coin for every junk e-mail advertisement you agree to read, then you can write a mail reader that will read their spam and collect all their 20e coins. To me, that's better than "minting" e-cash. Totally legal, and the net effect transfers funds from the spammers to me. The rest of my letter was in regards to writing that mail reader. And no, even if they were to succeed at getting stupid users to install their own special mail reader just for the privilege of reading their advertisements, without secure hardware in the users' machines, their mail server would not be secure against a spoofing attack. John -- J. Deters "Captain's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull." +-------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: jad at dsddhc.com (work) jad at pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | PGP Key ID: 768 / 15FFA875 | +-------------------------------------------------------+ From vznuri at netcom.com Tue Aug 27 14:52:00 1996 From: vznuri at netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 05:52:00 +0800 Subject: Denning interview in Wired In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608271723.KAA23960@netcom23.netcom.com> SL: >This was not an interview, but an article. Though all quotes are >accurate (and checked with the source) it was me who did the choosing, so >it's really not fair to fault Dorothy for not addressing issues x and y, >etc. hey, cut me some slack. you did specifically "interview" her for the article, (I'm remembering the part where you say you pressed for details about how clipper would improve the world, and she came back talking about how she got locked out of a swim locker in her wet bathing suit, hee, hee). it's not an interview in the sense that you are directly quoting her the whole article, but I'd say it would be fair to call it an interview. article, whatever, I don't care. also, I was not claiming that Denning failed to address particular issues in the article alone (which I agree would not be totally fair, with only one "sample"). I've read a lot of her writing and talking and am pointing out that she doesn't volunteer any info on the points I mentioned (constitutionality etc.) in general, even when pressed, and that your article fits into suggesting this pattern of evasion of certain points on her part. did she talk to you about any of the issues I mentioned in my post? if so, I would have suspected you would have included them in the article. in any case, even on her own and when directly challenged, she avoids the key issues I mentioned to a degree that for me approaches intellectual sloppiness or even dishonesty. the article imho correctly conveys the reality that Denning, even after being the poster-girl for Clipper, wiretapping, and key escrow, has failed to take into account or address the key devastating counterpoints of her opposition, and still at this late date has great difficulty explaining why "all the above" is a good thing and desirable, despite endless opportunity to boil her stance into effective soundbites. >For a more comprehensive defense of her position you can go to her >web site, where she has lotsa position papers. fair enough. I challenge anyone to show how she's addressed the points I mentioned. I'm simply pointing out a pattern I've noticed in her thinking of which your own article is another confirmation, but not the sole basis for the claim. >Incidentally, I didn't set out to rehash the Clipper issues in the >article, but to try to give some insight into Dorothy herself. which you did. that's why I said in my post, it gives interesting fodder for psychogical insights of Denning's position. I don't know why you seem to be defensive about the article in your response when I said nothing critical of your own role. I guess I didn't make it clear I thought it was a fine article and thought you did a commendable job, and I've always been a big fan, if you care about my opinion in the matter there are other places in the article where I do sense a bit of a subtle bias against Denning, especially in the last paragraph, but overall I thought it was very objective. it seems to me it would be hard to write an objective article about Denning that didn't raise doubts in the readers mind (i.e. by carefully avoiding all mention of her opponents etc.) From baby-x at cyberpolis.org Tue Aug 27 15:07:21 1996 From: baby-x at cyberpolis.org (baby-X) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:07:21 +0800 Subject: Net Politics Message-ID: At 10:23 AM 8/27/96, Jonah Seiger wrote: >This is an important debate that unfortunately seems to be dividing the >net.community when we most need to be united. All of us working on >net-policy issues share a common vision and goals - promoting the free flow >of information, preserving and enhancing First Amendment values and >protecting individual privacy. There are, for better or worse, many >different views on the best way to accomplish those objectives, and the >debate over who has the right tactics seems to frequently escalate in to >religious war. Not an unusual thing online (Windows! Mac! Windows! Mac! Linux!). >Meanwhile, our opponents are well organized, determined, and do a much >better job of keeping their internal strategic differences to themselves. >Perhaps this is part of the reason they keep kicking our butts all over >town. I swer I had this conversation somewhere recently, and those of us involved in it came up with one reason this rift seems to come up so often and get discussed so publically, especially in comparison to our "organized, determined" opponents. I would hazard a guess that those people working within the cause of electronic freedoms tend not to be the simple order-following, authority-heeding sort (compared to, say, followers of the Religious Right). It's easy if you're Ralph Reed to send out a flyer or get the telemarketters working and tell the troops what to do. It's not as easy if you're, say, Jonah Seiger. Not because of Jonah (or Shabbir, or Declan, or whoever), but because of his audience. It's not a push-button response with us. And I'm still not convinced (as I wasn't last year when I was more heavily involved in some of this) that these differences of opinion have to somehow be kept behind-closed-doors. That has always stuck me as the way -they- do it (if I can stoop to using a Them for a moment), and never as a way that was inherently required. It's like the Gulf War or something. "Hey, we're at war, stop criticising, we need to be united!" Hogwash. -----------------------------------------------[ Christopher D. Frankonis ]--- --------------------------------------------------[ baby-x at cyberpolis.org ]--- From perry at piermont.com Tue Aug 27 15:30:49 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:30:49 +0800 Subject: please help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608272004.QAA29553@jekyll.piermont.com> Manuel Benedicto Procas writes: > Please...you know a macintosh program in order to war dialing TCP IP > numbers and Unix or VMS localice Login/password cobinations. > > MANUEL Check the ftp site at fcd-3.gue.org Perry From mbened at encomix.es Tue Aug 27 15:35:46 1996 From: mbened at encomix.es (Manuel Benedicto Procas) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:35:46 +0800 Subject: please help Message-ID: Please...you know a macintosh program in order to war dialing TCP IP numbers and Unix or VMS localice Login/password cobinations. MANUEL From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Tue Aug 27 15:38:52 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:38:52 +0800 Subject: Boeing Antenna Demos T1 Reception Rates Message-ID: <9608271954.AA15230@rpcp.mit.edu> WASHINGTON, DC, U.S.A., 1996 AUG 27 (NB) -- By Bill Pietrucha. All eyes were on the truck as it meandered its way down the twisting mountain road in northern Bosnia. Except the eyes didn't belong to lookouts in an observation post along the road. They were in a modified US Air Force (USAF) C-135 flying at 35,000 feet along the East Coast of the United States, some 6,000 miles away. The USAF C-135, known by the name Speckled Trout, was participating in the 1996 Joint Warrior Interoperability Demonstration (JWID `96). JWID `96 is the eighth in a series of technology demonstrations designed to identify command, control, communications, computer, and intelligence (C4I) problems between the armed services, demonstrate improved operational capabilities for deployed forces, and promote interoperability among existing and emerging C4I systems needed to support a joint task force. As part of the exercise, the Air Force installed the first full-scale prototype Ku-band phased array receive antenna system on the Speckled Trout, a modified avionics testbed aircraft maintained by the 412th Flight Test Squadron at Edwards Air Force Base, California. The antenna, developed by Boeing Co., is capable of receiving broad- band, high data rate satellite communications, with civilian as well as military applications, Boeing spokesperson Charles Ramey told Newsbytes. According to Ramey, the antenna will "revolutionize mobile satellite communications by increasing the data flow by thousands of times over current capabilities." Depending on the satellite and receiver, he said, rates of up to 30 megabits-per-second (Mbps) may be realized through a single transponder. "To date, satellite communication to mobile platforms has been limited to relatively narrow bandwidths, and wide band communication has been subject to the limits of antenna technology," Ramey told Newsbytes. The Boeing design can be adapted to simultaneously receive signals from multiple satellites in different orbits with a single antenna. The electronically steered antenna also allows for rapid switching between different satellites. During the JWID exercises, which will continue through August 30, the Boeing antenna system is being used to receive satellite transmitted video and data to support the Global Broadcast Service (GBS) mission. GBS, Ramey said, is designed to provide the military with a worldwide, seamless, high-throughput broadcast information service to support current and future defense objectives. As one Air Force Colonel at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida, told Newsbytes, "GBS is the CNN of the warfighter." EchoStar, a key member of the antenna demonstration team, transmitted video in Digital Video Broadcast (DVB) format for reception by the Boeing antenna system on the Speckled Trout. In addition to the video, an uplink data stream at T1, or 1.5Mbps, or higher is generated at the GBS uplink terminal testbed at the Operational Support Office facility located at the Naval research Facility near Washington DC. This signal, according to Ramey, is relayed through the GBS Americom K2 FSS satellite which downlinks to a receiver at an EchoStar facility. The data is then incorporated into the network broadcast system and retransmitted via the EchoStar 1 satellite to a GBS receiver. The data is then stored for retrieval by other systems, Ramey said, including the Global Command and Control System (GCCS), sponsored by the Air Force Communications Agency, and the Combat Information System, sponsored by the Air Intelligence Agency. "Other systems on board the Speckled Trout can retrieve data through the Boeing phased array antenna system, which is routed to terminals inside the aircraft for display and demonstration," Ramey said. The Speckled Trout also can track and receive video and data from EchoStar Dish Network TV, Hughes DirectTV, and USSB transmissions for display on a conventional monitor, Ramey said. Looking to commercial applications, Ramey said the phased array communication antenna system "offers the ability to provide passengers with more entertainment and information options. With the Boeing antenna system on board, passengers can have access to the entire spectrum of commercial television programming available from a BSS satellite." Ramey said the antenna system is capable of instantaneously bringing in approximately 100 channels from a given BSS satellite. (199670826/Press Contact: Charles Ramey, Boeing Defense & Space group, 206-657-1380) From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 27 15:39:50 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:39:50 +0800 Subject: "The Observer" calls the internet a child pornography ring In-Reply-To: <152310Z18071996@anon.penet.fi> Message-ID: <199608272004.NAA15842@dns2.noc.best.net> Banner Front page headline in the British Observer, Sunday 25th "The Peddlers of child abuse" see http://scallywag.com/ The internet is presented as a conspiracy by child molesters. There is a picture of Johan Helsingius, the man who free of charge provides an anonymous remailer service: The picture is captioned "The internet middle man who handles 90% of all child pornography" He is represented as personally profiting from the distribution of child pornography, though in fact no posts to binary newsgroups can go through his system, and no large binaries can go through his system, and he provides the anonymising service free of charge. There is a picture of Clive Feather, the man who runs the largest internet service provider in Britain, captioned "The school governor who sells access to photos of child rape"]] The observer article savagely demonizes all who use the internet, presenting it as primarily existing for the purpose of distributing child pornography, and demonizes and libels by name those who have sought to defend the liberty of netizens. I urge you all to check out this article, and send snail mail letters to the observer condemning (since they are obviously too low tech to read email) and email letters of support to those netizens who have been savagely libeled for their defence of liberty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ James A. Donald jamesd at echeque.com From nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu Tue Aug 27 15:42:11 1996 From: nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:42:11 +0800 Subject: A _REALLY_ Interesting Bet Message-ID: <199608272002.OAA27298@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Betting on football is one thing, but some of us would be very interested in the odds on US presidential election outcomes as November approaches. This kind of betting is illegal here, and I haven't looked lately for a "Ladbroke's" type site, but it is interesting because the betting odds from across the Atlantic more closely match eventual election results than the annoying calls from Gallup & Roper during suppertime. I have posted here, anonymously, on this topic before, but some of you are aware of who I am. I'll thank you to keep that a secret. ;} From alano at teleport.com Tue Aug 27 15:45:30 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:45:30 +0800 Subject: The POUCH Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960827120805.00bb8714@mail.teleport.com> At 07:44 PM 8/26/96 EDT, JOHN E. HOLT wrote: >The Pouch uses a 64 x 64 block product cipher, a 1024 bit random initialization >vector and the CBC technique. Most experts agree that such an implementation >is highly resistant to all forms of cryptographic attack. That depends highly on the cypher. Also depends on if your "initialization vector" is truly random. (Or even close, as some other companies have found in the past...) It is resistant to all attacks that you know of. Depending on the nature of the algorythm, this could be true in some sense, false in some sense and meaningless in some sense. Without published code, it is meaningless in all senses. >Hellman and Dilfie rely on knowing the algorithm for their known plain text >attacks >An unpublished algorithm forces them into reverse engineering the computer >programs to learn the algorithm. The POUCH has many roadblocks built in >to prevent this. As someone who has spent time reverse engeneering code, I find this one pretty funny. The only thing I have found that will obscure code in any real fashion is writing it badly. "Roadblocks" to reverse engeneering also tend to be a speed hit. Either way, it will not stop someone with the proper skills and tools. >I refer to Cummings, Cryptography and Data Security pages 150 and 98 in this >regard. Do we have to read them in reverse order or is that part of the roadblock you are using to make things more difficult...? I will be interested to see just what kind of liability problems you run into when this thing gets compromised. Of course, with a name like "The Pouch", you will probibly just claim it was a "kangaroo court". --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD. - alan at ctrl-alt-del.com "| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano at teleport.com | From maldrich at grci.com Tue Aug 27 15:51:55 1996 From: maldrich at grci.com (Mark O. Aldrich) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:51:55 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608271620.LAA10933@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Adam Shostack wrote: > > > > A few weeks back, I posted a request for source code review > > guidelines. I got about 50 me-toos, but no guidelines. So I wrote > > some I think are decent. They're still in draft format. I'd > > appreciate feedback & commentary on them. > > > > http://www.homeport.org/~adam/review.html > > Sorry. I missed your first post. The Security Engineering CMM effort has also been looking at methods that are used to create assurances in trusted systems/components/products. One of these is, of course, code examination and quality reviews. You may want to check out what they've done. There are not necessarily "steps" to be followed, but rather how the PA (process area) relates to the ability of an organization to perform security engineering (i.e., it's maturity). I haven't been in the PA's for awhile, but there *may* be something there that you can use. GRCI sits on both the authoring group and the steering committee for the SSE CMM. If you need more info, let me know and I'll hook you up with someone. The group is always looking for someone to test the implementation of the security engineering CMM products through pilot testing. Point your browser at http://www.ssecmm.ashton.csc.com/ and then rummage. There's stuff buried all over the server, but you probably will be most interested in the peer review, security vulnerability analysis, and quality management portions. As I recall (I can't get to the site right now), a lot of stuff is in RTF and not HTML, so you may have to DL it instead of look at it online. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |And if Dole wins and dies in office, they| Mark Aldrich | |could just pickle him and no one would | GRCI INFOSEC Engineering | |notice. It wouldn't be the first time we| maldrich at grci.com | |had a dill-dole running the country. | MAldrich at dockmaster.ncsc.mil| | -- Alan Olsen | | |_______________________________________________________________________| |The author is PGP Empowered. Public key at: finger maldrich at grci.com | | The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author | | and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wb8foz at nrk.com Tue Aug 27 16:15:38 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:15:38 +0800 Subject: FYI: GOP's Stolen Laptop... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960827112653.295f6afc@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608272041.QAA01816@nrk.com> Steve O sez: > > FYI: > > Front page of the New Jersey Star Ladger: > > "GOP's Stolen Laptop had credit card Details" They should have used PGP on those files..... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Aug 27 16:18:45 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:18:45 +0800 Subject: "The Observer" calls the internet a child pornography ring In-Reply-To: <152310Z18071996@anon.penet.fi> Message-ID: <199608272015.NAA28383@dns1.noc.best.net> Banner Front page headline in the British Observer, Sunday 25th "The Peddlers of child abuse" see http://scallywag.com/ The internet is presented as a conspiracy by child molesters. There is a picture of Johan Helsingius, the man who free of charge provides an anonymous remailer service: The picture is captioned "The internet middle man who handles 90% of all child pornography" He is represented as personally profiting from the distribution of child pornography, though in fact no posts to binary newsgroups can go through his system, and no large binaries can go through his system, and he provides the anonymising service free of charge. There is a picture of Clive Feather, the man who runs the largest internet service provider in Britain, captioned "The school governor who sells access to photos of child rape"]] The observer article savagely demonizes all who use the internet, presenting it as primarily existing for the purpose of distributing child pornography, and demonizes and libels by name those who have sought to defend the liberty of netizens. I urge you all to check out this article, and send snail mail letters to the observer condemning (since they are obviously too low tech to read email) and email letters of support to those netizens who have been savagely libeled for their defence of liberty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ James A. Donald jamesd at echeque.com From OSBORRI at msmail.northgrum.com Tue Aug 27 16:20:07 1996 From: OSBORRI at msmail.northgrum.com (Osborne, Rick) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:20:07 +0800 Subject: Real-time key server Message-ID: <32235B6D@smtpmmp2.northgrum.com> Okay, I was told to not post to the list until I'd: 1. Lurked for a month, 2. Figured out who Detweiler was, 3. Found out about BlackNet and DC Nets, 4. Learned of at least three of David Chaum's innovations. And at that point "[I] may be ready to post [my] first comments." Well, dammit, I can't wait that long. I need help now. I've only been on for 2 weeks, I have no clue who Detweiler is (other than the welcome message I haven't heard two words about him/her/it), and I know enough to sound stupid about the other stuff. But if you still think I'm worthy of listeneing to, then read on. I work for Northrop Grumman Corp (SBMS division) when I have been tasked to create a program for reciept of online forms. The entire division is wanting to go paperless, and I am the sole person doing it. (Yes, I'm going for pity here.) I am writing my own CGI remailer for insecure forms, but some of them have to be secure. I think the best way to go about this is a public-key system with both keys stored locally and the public keys stored on a networked database (for routing purposes; ie, it has to go through managers and admin and will be verified and digitally signed with each hop). Now, of course, acces to the public keys will be through a key server. This is where I come into my problem. In my research into keyservers, I find that none of them are realtime. Sure, there are CGI interfaces to them, but that's not what I mean. I was hoping for something along the line of a Finger or SMTP protocol, such that a client connects to a host (say, keyserv.northgrum.com) on a certain port (say, 5397) and goes through a realtime version of what is accomplished via email. Something like: [connect] client>GET osborri server>200 OK server>-----Begin . . . and so forth. Now. Yes, I am intelligent enough to implement something like this. (Actually, that's debatable, but it's also besides the point.) What I want to know is this: Is there a realtime implementation out there already? Why? Because: 1. I do not want to reinvent the wheel. 2. I would like to conform to existing standards. Now, if the answer is a 'no', then who wants to draft a quickie RFC? -oz From raffetto at podesta.com Tue Aug 27 16:35:22 1996 From: raffetto at podesta.com (John Raffetto) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:35:22 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" Message-ID: <199608272057.QAA01534@podesta.com> Josh Crockett is exactly right here... > It would seem >that we need to hunt down our issues and support them, seeing as that >politicians are notoriously unreliable on supporting every single issue >we would like them to support. And that's why Declan's message about Leahy is foolish. When you find a champion on the Hill for one issue, you rally around him/her. And when they won't support you on another issue, you find another champion. If your policy is to disown Hill allies (in this case, Leahy) who break ranks with you from time to time, you'll quickly run out of allies. And when you have no allies on the Hill, you're really screwed. John Raffetto From ichudov at algebra.com Tue Aug 27 16:49:41 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:49:41 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 18 Aug 1996 [SATELLITES] In-Reply-To: <199608271609.JAA12761@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <199608272046.PAA12319@manifold.algebra.com> jim bell wrote: > >I'd worry far more about the stresses of launch bothering > >the drives. > > That's not a problem at all. Most modern drives are rated for 10's > of G's, non-operating. Satellite launches are probably a breeze > compared to this. I remember reading that Russian satellite launches with people aboard had acceleration of about 9-10G. - Igor. From mbabcock at tyenet.com Tue Aug 27 17:04:44 1996 From: mbabcock at tyenet.com (Michael T. Babcock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:04:44 +0800 Subject: $10K offer if you can break the code Message-ID: <199608272124.OAA02407@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: mpd at netcom.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 27 17:17:57 1996 Date: 23 Aug 96 13:59:38 EDT From: "JOHN E. HOLT" <76473.1732 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: secret message To: Date: 01-Aug-96 14:50 EDT From: JOHN E. HOLT [76473,1732] Subj: puzzle ^%}{{ ZZ VVPAGMIGJEKMCCHIAKKPEHJDDDLOABGAMMJOCDFNOLNOKKKNIADPBGPPOEPIDCEMPGWW VVFCMOPKLKPJOHCNCJBDGOOJKFANCJJBDBMDIFIEKEDPLKDDGMPLHMIIPIJFMKOLENWW VVCAKJGJCKPAEOOMLJPNFJEKEINIHFKHNOLPCAHLEKHHLMHJFCOEKAFAGPHJBCPBHBWW VVOKLAENICAFDHEOEODMHMFGIONMAACAOHEOHDAJDNENGAHABNHGOCCPJNFDMAMKADWW VVMGDHKGPKBEIDBNLOCMLFMEIOKBFBFKJIMIIIFKJDFENCBPAPFBAOFMHEDODBFFPDWW VVOMFFJBNGEJPLGHJLFOBLFOGCBKAACEICLBIKHGILKCLMHPFIAHPDEOOODPPMLGDNWW VVGLDNEBDINMILDJDOJOJNKCLIBBKBCBEJPBJCFHGKMFLLEPGLGOOIIGAKJEGNPFHDWW VVIJBMFLALHPEHHGEGPCLGILBDBMEGMOGOIFBPPONGEDJPNFNMPCJFJPAEMIDOEMBLWW ZZ ZZ Distribution: To: ME > [76473,1732] Message Copyright 1996, Michael T. Babcock http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock Send a message with the subject "Send public key" to receive an automatic reply with my public key. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: ascii Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ iQC1AgUBMiNmCttTCwP6TF2xAQG65AT9GW2JbpaAo26USWptnLhhdaHWXbvDEi2i 35KWFHPWnlfJmj7NiUz+YKAV1aoHJssbGGUKIGoU1R0AV9NepGcODRwamrpZMXZ2 2TWIjgc0NbI+G9PNJrtc9h0XhsWV+w9upF0Yr1uCdCMtsdQtMKGguPzfd3+CfOkq X5kSv4WIhi22WYwHHlyEyEMPrxMo60ey1EFUUctBYLqgl91omsR+qg== =wEv6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hag at ai.mit.edu Tue Aug 27 17:12:30 1996 From: hag at ai.mit.edu (Daniel Hagerty) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:12:30 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608270158.UAA24640@homeport.org> Message-ID: <199608272111.RAA23997@galapas.ai.mit.edu> > From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:20:56 -0500 (CDT) > > Look at your sendmail.cf file for a humongous amount of > email parsing rules. Much better, look at rfc822. (I wouldn't consider *anything* that has the word "sendmail" in it a good reference). Hostnames will match the regexp [-A-Za-z0-9.]; those are the only legal characters in the hostname portion. Usernames ("domain-dependent local string") are much harder to what is and isn't legal. Read rfc822. From joelm at eskimo.com Tue Aug 27 17:25:59 1996 From: joelm at eskimo.com (Joel McNamara) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:25:59 +0800 Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) MSoft's reply... Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960827142515.009f60f0@mail.eskimo.com> Displaying warning dialogs in browsers and using default settings so as not to auto run macros are only bandages to this problem. Consider the following: By using API routines to access the Win95 registry, someone writes a macro virus (or even just a garden variety trojan) that turns off the warning levels for MSIE which are stored in the registry (I haven't had time to look, but I'm assuming they're there). The user has no idea the setting has been changed, and is never warned when evil, malicious, unsigned code is executed. Until too late. The registry, or whatever file you're saving state values to, should have some form of write authorization associated with it. Encryption would also be extremely nice for privacy's sake (check out a Windows .INI file or registry entry some time, and see what little tidbits of information are being stored there). In my experience, one of Microsoft's main problems when it comes to security has been its developers and program/product managers don't think like "bad guys" when it comes to design and subsequent exploits and holes. Unfortunately, the user is the ultimate loser. Joel BTW - The paranoid side of me wouldn't be surprised to see PC "espionage-enabled" viruses and trojans within the next few years. Their main purpose would be to either disable or patch various security features for later attacks, or directly snatch information off of hard drives and send it out over the Net. I know of a few lab projects of a similar nature, that were very easy to implement. >Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:49:33 -0700 >From: Thomas Reardon >Subject: Re: Internet Explorer security problem (Felten, RISKS-18.36) > > >We have discovered a security flaw in the current version (3.0) of > >Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser running under Windows 95. An > >attacker could exploit the flaw to run any DOS command on the machine > >of an Explorer user who visits the attacker's page. > >We now post the virus warning dialog on local files (file: urls). We have >always posted it on remote files (http: urls). Note that the root of the >problem is not Java or the browser, but in macro-enabled applications. IE3 >has a mechanism to warn users about safety of documents when used with >common macro-enabled applications. We are have updated Microsoft Word such >that by default it will not run macros embedded in documents. > >-Thomas From mbabcock at tyenet.com Tue Aug 27 17:29:24 1996 From: mbabcock at tyenet.com (Michael T. Babcock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:29:24 +0800 Subject: (NOISE) Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <199608272140.OAA02638@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 27 17:33:42 1996 > So would I, however, the assumption that "cypherpunk crypto review > services" are to be had for nothing is the height of arrogance. They've already got a lot of us reviewing it... sorry, it's not arrogance - -- they were right. > If you were sincere, you'd thank them with cash. Afterall, you seem > to suggest that you have a good deal of liquidity eh? Actually, they lose $99 each time they give us a free copy of the software ... in case you're not as good in accounting as you think you are in crypto. I have no idea what your rep. is ... but I know one thing, they're offering an exchange of valuable software (market value: $99) for valuable services (crypto-rebel review) > Uh, the kiss ass paragraphs were the reviewers comments, not your code. I aggreed with the reviewers comments, they're mine too ... I've sent many long E-mails to people I do computer service for endorsing Pronto Secure. I have lined up 6 people who wish to purchase it. This is for real pal. If you don't like it, get out of the ring. Some of us want our PGP to be nice and easy like E-mail used to be. Message Copyright 1996, Michael T. Babcock http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock Send a message with the subject "Send public key" to receive an automatic reply with my public key. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: ascii Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ iQC1AgUBMiNpvNtTCwP6TF2xAQGKSwT+Lg+uEKBX9yUfZvkZ6tO32fhilvb65sgJ lpH2MPIArTKIYw/nD4UGQbQPTtx/9+1ASx5V+uqmquy7t/yfbuajrmsuLjnGBc/D tYxAxRl31+sU3N8X2ie54X1VWcLzgqfXCByuTYIHPPkeHjk7kWJfwTqXZsLV/ZZp NYGaL6OWq+DXWN3IYxd43fVdfi6qzCxDjseIdAdoV4J7TCjOUCNXbg== =WqpJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mbabcock at tyenet.com Tue Aug 27 17:37:47 1996 From: mbabcock at tyenet.com (Michael T. Babcock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:37:47 +0800 Subject: (NOISE) Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer Message-ID: <199608272136.OAA02567@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: geoff at commtouch.co.il, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 27 17:29:43 1996 > To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com > Date: Fri Aug 16 02:41:34 1996 > Unicorn, > > > No, I was merely pointing out that if the review revealed that it > > had problems (one assumed that the intent of peer review is to reveal > > such problems in the first place, but perhaps you just like giving > > software away?) then the offered reward was valueless. No, actually, after having pointed out one (and found another) bug in Pronto Secure, I find it to be an amazing piece of software! It does everything with PGP and although it's slow at adding new keys (I presume it always checks the signatures down a few levels every time it adds one, and thus justifiably slower then straight adding a key) it's fast, efficient, and fairly easy to use. I must admit that of the "View/Save/Inspect" options, only "Save" is very clear and the rest are (excuse the pun in advance) cryptic at best. However, the methods used for the cryptography seem to be sound and after monitoring my COM transmissions, I haven't had it sending my secret key ring out ... ;) ... (unless they're hiding it in tiny packets ;) > Peer review seems to have voted that their risk paid off. My vote's in. Thanks for the software! > > Cypherpunks is always getting the cash poor developer who thinks he > > very clever because he has to pay testers no money if he offers his > > new product free to the person who discovers a flaw, or writes a > > review. I actually think that Commtouch will not be cash poor in a few months ... > > From your home page, I would guess that you request that reviewers > > allow you to make their comments public. That's called an > > endorsement, and, by the way, people are usually paid for them. > > Sometimes in the millions. Think Michael Jordan is getting a deal > > when you use his name to promote your product and then give him a > > $99.00 piece of software (which is effectively worth the amount of > > time it takes to write a few kiss ass paragraphs on the software, not > > $99.00)? That's because they're famous and their opinion is considered to be very good. I could see them paying Phil Zimmerman to endorse it publicly, but it wouldn't matter much because the mainstream people (the ones they're targetting with Pronto Secure) don't know who Zimmerman is ... so it's not worth they're money ...! > I venture that most c'punks would agree that moving strong e-mail > security into mainstream is a good thing. This is not going to happen > without people making money from it. Definately... Message Copyright 1996, Michael T. Babcock http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock Send a message with the subject "Send public key" to receive an automatic reply with my public key. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: ascii Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ iQC1AgUBMiNo19tTCwP6TF2xAQHwUgUAlJGE5ZU0xV7Hx3u7+/MRv+n83Kn9ZxsE 8igHrEjLwVbfBC9ivoZ7aonm/misAdy2jr77oowPcvuE3t750oCMCfb+AdhUPQGx Knu29L4XNbgpUH+t5rCCqUiSM7EHIYtmURBjrmDSAADIH3vcd8b9Cc6T5soNIQK+ Nsy9hve+ly+4nVwujNKqAhOCvIMBn+wK/K+ifbAvGbXP65YQFktp4Q== =AF5P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From james at corp.netcom.net.uk Tue Aug 27 17:57:18 1996 From: james at corp.netcom.net.uk (James Fidell) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:57:18 +0800 Subject: "The Observer" calls the internet a child pornography ring In-Reply-To: <199608272004.NAA15842@dns2.noc.best.net> Message-ID: <199608272209.XAA22191@corp.netcom.net.uk> > Banner Front page headline in the British Observer, Sunday 25th > > "The Peddlers of child abuse" > see http://scallywag.com/ > > The internet is presented as a conspiracy by child molesters. > > There is a picture of Johan Helsingius, the man who free of charge > provides an anonymous remailer service: The picture is captioned "The > internet middle man who handles 90% of all child pornography" He is > represented as personally profiting from the distribution of child > pornography, though in fact no posts to binary newsgroups can go > through his system, and no large binaries can go through his system, > and he provides the anonymising service free of charge. > > There is a picture of Clive Feather, the man who runs the largest > internet service provider in Britain, captioned "The school governor > who sells access to photos of child rape"]] I'm not sure even Clive would claim that he "runs the largest ISP in Britain" :-) > The observer article savagely demonizes all who use the internet, > presenting it as primarily existing for the purpose of distributing > child pornography, and demonizes and libels by name those who have > sought to defend the liberty of netizens. > > I urge you all to check out this article, and send snail mail letters > to the observer condemning (since they are obviously too low tech to > read email) and email letters of support to those netizens who have > been savagely libeled for their defence of liberty. They do have a WWW site -- http://www.guardian.co.uk/observer/ The only feedback address I could find is nml at guardian.co.uk James. -- "Yield to temptation -- | Work: james at corp.netcom.net.uk it may not pass your way again" | Play: james at hermione.demon.co.uk | http://www.netcom.net.uk/~james/ - Lazarus Long | James Fidell From andrew_loewenstern at il.us.swissbank.com Tue Aug 27 18:30:11 1996 From: andrew_loewenstern at il.us.swissbank.com (Andrew Loewenstern) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:30:11 +0800 Subject: FYI: GOP's Stolen Laptop... In-Reply-To: <199608272041.QAA01816@nrk.com> Message-ID: <9608272141.AA00390@ch1d157nwk> Steve O sez: > > Front page of the New Jersey Star Ladger: > > > > "GOP's Stolen Laptop had credit card Details" David Lesher responds: > They should have used PGP on those files..... ...but I thought fine, upstanding, and law-abiding citizens didn't have anything to hide... andrew From wclerke at emirates.net.ae Tue Aug 27 18:47:45 1996 From: wclerke at emirates.net.ae (Wayne Clerke) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:47:45 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption Message-ID: <01BB948C.BD6EAD20@csb085.emirates.net.ae> ---------- From: Drifter[SMTP:drifter at c2.net] Sent: Monday, 26 August 1996 16:19 To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: File System Encryption I'm aware of the three main disk encryption programs SFS, SECDRV, and SECDEV, but I need to find a solution that works with Windows 95 32bit or Windows NT 4.0. I'm currently using SFS 1.17 and Secure Drive under Win-95, but am unable to continue to work in dos compatability mode due to severe performance hits. I am open to commercial products that have passed peer review, but know of none. If anyone could suggest a solution (outside of switching OS's), I would be *most* gratefull. Please respond to the list, as I am a subscriber under another account. Tried secdev? Edgar Swank (author of secdrv) recently posted that secdev (note, not secdrv) does, in fact, uses 32 bit disk access with win95. Win95 reports that the secure device is in compatibility mode, but the host disk (and therefore the secure volume file) is being accessed in 32 bit (disk) mode. Not sure what issues there are with '32 bit FILE access' mode here. Sounds worth a try though. Please post the results if you try this. The Drifter EMail: wclerke at emirates.net.ae PGP key ID: AEB2546D FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702 PGP mail welcome. Voice: +971 506 43 48 53 Wayne Clerke If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space. From sparks at bah.com Tue Aug 27 20:01:05 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:01:05 +0800 Subject: a question please Message-ID: <199608272340.TAA08496@booz.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 27 19:39:45 1996 I have been lurking for some time, the occasional quip of a post, perhaps a comment on a "shrink wrap" - I still haven't figured out "Black Net" Done searches, ( the usual ) and no luck... can I get a break ? Would someone please explain it to me ? Thanks, and my PSecure is registered ! - -------------------------------- Charley Sparks Booz Allen & Hamilton - -------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMiOHQuJ+JZd/Y4yVAQGMcwQMDs5Owwd5XH6+XPUVZow4NMq1rV+QXp6W dLeF0vGT9rg5n6NZJKuAxSFuiXjJLKpv1JePSI2y2mmqMKncajhl2NvvtNPtnK/z dYF8D2sDvdPVffbxBO7QfjDwV9k5LmEVk24sOjbIk+j6zIZW899OAvT6CadoCmRS 1dQ9VWMyI0vunw== =tfni -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dfloyd at io.com Tue Aug 27 20:29:29 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:29:29 +0800 Subject: Net Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608272357.SAA27804@bermuda.io.com> > > At 10:23 AM 8/27/96, Jonah Seiger wrote: [...] > > I swer I had this conversation somewhere recently, and those of us involved > in it came up with one reason this rift seems to come up so often and get > discussed so publically, especially in comparison to our "organized, > determined" opponents. I would hazard a guess that those people working > within the cause of electronic freedoms tend not to be the simple > order-following, authority-heeding sort (compared to, say, followers of the > Religious Right). It's easy if you're Ralph Reed to send out a flyer or get > the telemarketters working and tell the troops what to do. It's not as easy > if you're, say, Jonah Seiger. Not because of Jonah (or Shabbir, or Declan, > or whoever), but because of his audience. It's not a push-button response > with us. The herding cats analogy comes to mind here. [...] From jya at pipeline.com Tue Aug 27 20:30:25 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:30:25 +0800 Subject: DEF_con Message-ID: <199608280059.AAA26208@pipe5.t2.usa.pipeline.com> 8-26-96. EeTi: "Unix gives hackers a crack at systems." Las Vegas: Many of the hacking elite were on the Internet long before the World Wide Web was a gleam in the eye of inventor Tim Berners Lee. And these folks know the best-kept secret of gaining access to-and control of-someone else's electronic property: Unix. An expert underground Web cracker who goes by the handle +ORC noted with apparent glee: "With each company that connects to the Net, new frontiers are created for crackers to explore." Indeed, even as many old-line hackers of the sort who gathered here recently for the DefCon convention go legit, some starting cyber-security companies of their own, Internet-security experts look with trepidation to the next, more threatening wave of cybercrime. Perhaps the legendary hacker group l0pht is the best example of the thin line between cybercriminal and corporate comer. Several members spoke at DefCon, notably Death Vegetable, administrator of the Cult of the Dead Cow; and Mudge, the brilliant encryption cracker who devised the S/Key Cracker's Toolkit and posted it on the Net, much to the chagrin of Bellcore, S/Key's owners. ----- http://jya.com/defcon.txt (9 kb) DEF_con From lambert at tyenet.com Tue Aug 27 20:34:50 1996 From: lambert at tyenet.com (Wayne Lambert) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:34:50 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199608280103.SAA06674@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Tue Aug 27 21:06:05 1996 - --- Wayne Lambert -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQC1AwUBMiObgojTYwU2UXOVAQHNtwT9Gt9WFfG5WNWwfiqNKU/mOQdzVAY17108 E9h5kVZOuTmA64RIbtwDwD8ehfdJBYguaxIY5Iwm6no9R7YlS5JfyPZ1a1LdnUkp nA/Le0Ru2pnb4jDLt2fvYDox9NatBH18nIKNWkDo7l3nxf8y4gur/WS2OHlNsiw+ otNsi993lNuIieYgJ4ZZ3qp0vBhMjvOsUgNZ0RaSpHAei65lcpAInw== =/+Dx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 27 20:39:58 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:39:58 +0800 Subject: Hayek (was: Cato Institute conference on Net-regulation) Message-ID: At 5:05 PM 8/27/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >This should be a good half-day conference, with some interesting >speakers. I'll probably show up for Charles Platt's keynote. > >Naturally, it's being held in the building's Hayek Auditorium. Hayek has >some relevance to cypherpunks, I think -- he warned early on that the >loss of economic freedom inevitably leads to the loss of civil liberties >as well. > >He also described the phenomenon of spontaneous order (admittedly in the >context of markets), which speaks to the way the Net has ordered itself. Indeed, Hayek has had a _lot_ to do with the Cypherpunks! From "The Road to Serfdom" to "Law, Legislation, and Liberty," his works have exerted a profound influence on me, and on many others. Lots of connections, from ur-Cypherpunk Phil Salin having worked with him, to special Hayek issues of magazines also featuring Cypherpunk fellow travellers like Mark Miller, and so on. I described to Kevin Kelly the "emergent order" work Hayek did, for Kevin's development of his ideas which later became "Out of Control." (I'm sure Kelly was generally aware of Hayek, but I emphasized to him the importance of his emergent order ideas as the underpinnings of anarcho-capitalism.) (In fact, I would say Hayek would've been a candidate for being a cover boy for "Wired"...assuming of course he was 60 years younger, had some of his body parts peirced, and, even better, was a Netchick. Being instead a dead white European male, he'll never be mentioned in "Wired.") "Hayek -- Tired (Dead tired, in fact), Beavis -- Wired" ("Uh, like, economics like really sucks.") We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jya at pipeline.com Tue Aug 27 20:43:16 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:43:16 +0800 Subject: SUN_pak Message-ID: <199608280101.BAA26550@pipe5.t2.usa.pipeline.com> 08-26-96. MiPa: System for signatureless transmission and reception of data packets between computer networks (Assignee -- Sun Microsystems, Inc.) Abstract: A system for automatically encrypting and decrypting data packet sent from a source host to a destination host across a public internetwork. Inventors: Aziz; Mulligan; Patterson; Scott. ----- http://jya.com/sunpak.txt (6 kb) SUN_pak From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 27 21:06:17 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:06:17 +0800 Subject: a question please Message-ID: At 11:40 PM 8/27/96, Charley Sparks wrote: >I have been lurking for some time, the occasional quip of a post, perhaps >a comment >on a "shrink wrap" - I still haven't figured out "Black Net" >Done searches, ( the usual ) and no luck... can I get a break ? Would >someone please >explain it to me ? Then perhaps you need new search tools! My own searches of one of the mysteries you mentioned, BlackNet, produce lots of informative results. But, then, I use Alta Vista, the One True Search Engine. (Actually, all similar search engines, e.g. Excite, Yahoo, Inktomi, etc., produce comparable results.) And since I have been seeing your messages--which I presume is roughly coterminous with you subscription to this list--there have been several mentions of my Cyphernomicon FAQ. I suggest you consult this for long explanations of many Cypherpunks topics. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From AFDA2 at aol.com Tue Aug 27 21:08:23 1996 From: AFDA2 at aol.com (AFDA2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:08:23 +0800 Subject: AFDA Web Site Message-ID: <960827203703_395539315@emout14.mail.aol.com> MEMORANDUM SUBJECT: AFDA Web site, located at: http://www.afda.org In September, the Web site for the Association of Federal Defense Attorneys (AFDA) will become password-protected for members only. Those of you who have paid your membership dues for 1996 will be receiving an email message containing a User ID and Password, which will be good through December 31, 1997 -- almost a year and a half of unlimited usage for the small membership fee that allows the association to continue financing the cost of maintaining and upgrading the web site. Once the member password system goes into effect in September, the online Library will be stocked with research memos in many areas of federal criminal litigation (including topics in white collar / corporate criminal litigation), along with sample briefs and an expanded collection of court opinions and government agency documents, all of which can be downloaded to your hard drive. At present, the library has all criminal law-related Supreme Court opinions, key U.S. Sentencing Commission documents (including the 1995 guidelines), and over 60 operations memoranda of the Bureau of Prisons. In addition, the online Newsletter will be expanded to add a separate section for white collar / corporate criminal defense. Please note that upon installing the member-password system, the Message Board on the web site will provide members with a private resource for discussing strategies and issues with other colleagues, without feeling exposed to the general web population. We hope you will take advantage of this opportunity and put the message board to good use. Any of you who have not yet joined the association may do so easily by clicking the "Join AFDA" bar at the top of the home page and completing the membership form. Please feel free to complete the "Feedback" form on the web site so that we can continue to receive your comments and suggestions, a number of which have already been incorporated into the site. Please remember that this web site exists to serve the educational needs of the federal criminal defense bar, so the association counts on you to join and give us your views on how the site can continue to serve specific needs and interests of the defense bar. All email inquiries should be addressed to: AFDA2 at AOL.com Best regards to all, and thanks again for your support. Marc S. Sanders (System Operator / Webmaster) From drifter at c2.net Tue Aug 27 21:11:42 1996 From: drifter at c2.net (The Drifter) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:11:42 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:55:20 +0400, Wayne Clerke wrote: >Tried secdev? Edgar Swank (author of secdrv) recently posted >that secdev (note, not secdrv) does, in fact, uses 32 bit disk >access with win95. Win95 reports that the secure device is in >compatibility mode, but the host disk (and therefore the secure >volume file) is being accessed in 32 bit (disk) mode. Not sure >what issues there are with '32 bit FILE access' mode here. > >Sounds worth a try though. Please post the results if >you try this. > I have actually had Secure File System, Secure Drive, and Secure Device all installed with mounted volumes at the same time under Win95. However, 32bit file access is not the problem. When you load a TSR in Win95, the operating system forces you into 16bit DOS compatability mode. I'm not a kernal guru so I can't explain all the specifics, but it basically makes 95 act as Win-3.11 and looses multithreading (as it were) and creates serious memory paging problems if you have >32mb installed. Thanks for the reply though .. and if you need assitance with getting SECDEV working under 95, just drop me a note. Drifter From drifter at c2.net Tue Aug 27 21:21:48 1996 From: drifter at c2.net (The Drifter) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:21:48 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption In-Reply-To: <199608271401.JAA04116@xanadu.io.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > If you have another 386 or 486 lying around, you could install Linux and > Ian's encrypted loopback code on a remote box, then NFS or Samba the > filesystem over. For protection, you could modify the vlock command to > lock the console (and not unlock it), and disable inetd. Then, unless > someone has the permissions to access the files through the network, the > files are inaccessable ;-). I may have to consider this approach. I'll have to look into Ian's system. Does it pass muster with the crypto gods? (that's meant as a compliment guys :) Drifter From lists at lina.inka.de Tue Aug 27 21:24:14 1996 From: lists at lina.inka.de (Bernd Eckenfels) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:24:14 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608272111.RAA23997@galapas.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hi, > Much better, look at rfc822. (I wouldn't consider *anything* that > has the word "sendmail" in it a good reference). its much better if you dont rely on the content of the string at all. Dont use sh -c or system and you will be save. Simply asume that all characters are valid in user suplied strings and treat them exactly that way... If they need to be exporeted then unfortunately they need to be 'untainted' and this should be done by positive not negative lists as mentioned in the guidelines. Greetings Bernd PS: I have collected the references on http://www.inka.de/sites/lina/freefire-l/ -- (OO) -- Bernd_Eckenfels at Wittumstrasse13.76646Bruchsal.de -- ( .. ) ecki@{lina.inka.de,linux.de} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/A2C51749 eckes at irc +4972573817 *plush* (O____O) If privacy is outlawed only Outlaws have privacy From Omegaman at bigeasy.com Tue Aug 27 21:41:16 1996 From: Omegaman at bigeasy.com (Omegaman) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:41:16 +0800 Subject: (Fwd) Re: The POUCH Message-ID: <199608280157.UAA08066@bigeasy.com> After reading Mr. Holt's announcement and the subsequent replies on the list I decided to send him a polite off-list reply. In it I briefly reiterated the argument that knowing how a lock mechanism work does not make the lock insecure; furthermore, it makes it more secure. I then stated, in all caps, that not knowing the algorhythm is inherently insecure. I stated that he should not be surprised when encryption activists bristle at the knowingly (or otherwise) techniques which pander to a crypto-ignorant populace. I requested no reply and completed with a few quotes from the "Snake Oil" chapter of the PGP documention. I told him to ask himself if he felt that the marketing techniques he was using fit the profile contained therein. While not the friendliest of e-mails, I was certainly civil and sincerely hoped to prod Mr. Holt to consider these issues and assess his approach. His reply was so rediculous that I decided to post it to the list with my own reply attached. Chuckle at will. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: "JOHN E. HOLT" <76473.1732 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: The POUCH Reply-to: omega at bigeasy.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:54:21 > You write me using a software package that was ripped off from RSA > that you got free from a bulletin board. What level of trust is that? You really know nothing at all about encryption. At least I KNOW what I'm getting. I know what the RSA algorhythm is. I know it has been tested and studied. Whether or not it was "ripped off" depends on whether or not you're related to RSA data security in some way. It's a copyright issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with the technology itself. All the algorhythms used in the PGP package were written by others; what does that have to do with anything? What does the price of the software have to do with anything? If I spent money on it does that make it any more secure? I would gladly spend money on secure encryption technology. I, for one, would like to be comfortable that it's money well-spent. Your defenses are those of one who has nothing to defend. Crying "libel" and making empty statements such as the above are actions that divert attention from the truth; that your product is most likely worthless crap. Furthermore, you really don't know for yourself whether or not this is true. Happy selling. me ------------------------------------------------------------------ Omegaman PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 Send E-mail with the "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get my public key ------------------------------------------------------------------- From ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu Tue Aug 27 21:55:39 1996 From: ses at tipper.oit.unc.edu (Simon Spero) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:55:39 +0800 Subject: "The Observer" calls the internet a child pornography ring In-Reply-To: <199608272209.XAA22191@corp.netcom.net.uk> Message-ID: The letters page is editor at observer.co.uk . The thing that really got me riled was the use of a quote from Tom Paine on the front page as the header to their leader. Tom Paine published most of his important work anonymously, and thugs wouldoften try to beat up the publishers to find out who the author was. (Paine's friends sometimes did this too). Common.Sense at alpha.c2.org --- Cause maybe (maybe) | In my mind I'm going to Carolina you're gonna be the one that saves me | - back in Chapel Hill May 16th. And after all | Email address remains unchanged You're my firewall - | ........First in Usenet......... From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Aug 27 22:13:46 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:13:46 +0800 Subject: $10K offer if you can break the code In-Reply-To: <199608272124.OAA02407@toad.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Michael T. Babcock wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > To: mpd at netcom.com, cypherpunks at toad.com > Date: Tue Aug 27 17:17:57 1996 > Date: 23 Aug 96 13:59:38 EDT > From: "JOHN E. HOLT" <76473.1732 at CompuServe.COM> > Subject: secret message > To: > > Date: 01-Aug-96 14:50 EDT > From: JOHN E. HOLT [76473,1732] > Subj: puzzle > > ^%}{{ > ZZ > VVPAGMIGJEKMCCHIAKKPEHJDDDLOABGAMMJOCDFNOLNOKKKNIADPBGPPOEPIDCEMPGWW > VVFCMOPKLKPJOHCNCJBDGOOJKFANCJJBDBMDIFIEKEDPLKDDGMPLHMIIPIJFMKOLENWW [blah blah] Ok, just a second here. What are the terms of the contest? Why am I convinced I know the answer already? > Message Copyright 1996, Michael T. Babcock > http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock > > Send a message with the subject "Send public key" to > receive an automatic reply with my public key. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.3i > Charset: ascii > Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ > > iQC1AgUBMiNmCttTCwP6TF2xAQG65AT9GW2JbpaAo26USWptnLhhdaHWXbvDEi2i > 35KWFHPWnlfJmj7NiUz+YKAV1aoHJssbGGUKIGoU1R0AV9NepGcODRwamrpZMXZ2 > 2TWIjgc0NbI+G9PNJrtc9h0XhsWV+w9upF0Yr1uCdCMtsdQtMKGguPzfd3+CfOkq > X5kSv4WIhi22WYwHHlyEyEMPrxMo60ey1EFUUctBYLqgl91omsR+qg== > =wEv6 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Tue Aug 27 22:15:06 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:15:06 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 20 August 1996 Message-ID: <01I8SBQ60IWW9JDBTS@mbcl.rutgers.edu> > From: IN%"educom at educom.unc.edu" 21-AUG-1996 02:46:51.91 >To: IN%"edupage at elanor.oit.unc.edu" "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List" >CC: >Subj: Edupage, 20 August 1996 [...] >***************************************************************** >Edupage, 20 August 1996. Edupage, a summary of news about information >technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, >a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities >seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. >***************************************************************** [...] I am willing to bet that the new domain name organization(s) will also have to implement a policy similar to the below, although some may be more lax on one side or the other. (It occurs to me that ibm.org should not be confusable with ibm.com by any "reasonable person" - or at least any reasonable person with any business making assumptions by what they see on the Net.) >NETWORK SOLUTIONS SEEKS DOMAIN DISPUTE SOLUTIONS >Network Solutions Inc., which August 9 announced another round of revisions >to its Domain Name Dispute Policy, is imposing additional requirements on >the trademark holder who challenges a domain name registrant with trademark >violation. The trademark registration must be identical to the domain name, >and trademark holders must provide NSI a certified copy of its trademark >registration, as well as a copy of a written notification addressed to the >domain registrant of the trademark holder's prior claim. In an attempt to >avoid being named in any more lawsuits, the new NSI policy implements an >interpleader-like procedure, where NSI turns over control of any disputed >domain name to the court and will carry out all court orders without being >named a party to the suit. The new guidelines go into effect Sept. 9, and >text of the revised policy can be found at < http://rs.internic.net >. (BNA >Daily Report for Executives 19 Aug 96 A7) Hopefully, the below is a bit too pessimistic... it appears quite possible to institute more just charges (as per how much the person is burdening the Net) without a crash. (Did AOL's size have anything to do with the length of the shutdown, as opposed to its effects?) >GROWING PAINS ON THE NET >The inadvertent shutdown of America Online a few weeks ago was only the >beginning, say some industry observers, who predict that outages at >overburdened Internet providers will become more common in the future. >"Maybe for the first time in the history of the Internet, the demand is >exceeding the supply that technology can deliver," says the CEO of Advanced >Network & Services. Because flat-rate pricing is the dominant Internet >service provider business model, there is no financial incentive to conserve >the resource, warns the executive VP of Nynex Science & Technology. He >predicts that the Internet eventually will collapse under its own weight, >but will reemerge with "a lot more tollbooths on that highway than there are >now." (Business Week 26 Aug 96 p62) [...] >Edupage is written by John Gehl & Suzanne Douglas >. Voice: 404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057. >Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the >University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. >*************************************************************** >Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: >send mail to: listproc at educom.unc.edu with the message: subscribe edupage >George Gershwin (if your name is George Gershwin; otherwise, substitute >your own name). ... To cancel, send a message to: listproc at educom.unc.edu >with the message: unsubscribe edupage. (If you have subscription >problems, send mail to manager at educom.unc.edu.) From unicorn at schloss.li Tue Aug 27 22:16:28 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:16:28 +0800 Subject: (NOISE) Re: Free Pronto Secure Offer In-Reply-To: <199608272139.RAA19477@polaris.mindport.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Michael T. Babcock wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > To: unicorn at schloss.li, cypherpunks at toad.com > Date: Tue Aug 27 17:33:42 1996 > > So would I, however, the assumption that "cypherpunk crypto review > > services" are to be had for nothing is the height of arrogance. > > They've already got a lot of us reviewing it... sorry, it's not arrogance > - -- they were right. Read what I said carefully please. I said the assumption that they are for free is arrogance. Perhaps your services are worth less, that's not really my concern. They may have a wonderful product, but expecting and taking for granted free review by the entire list is still arrogance. > > If you were sincere, you'd thank them with cash. Afterall, you seem > > to suggest that you have a good deal of liquidity eh? > > Actually, they lose $99 each time they give us a free copy of the software > ... Uh, no. Assume a Scoobie Doo Mystery Machine Van is free with your one cent donation to Burger King, or $1.49 with no donation. Query: How much is a Scoobie Doo Mystery Machine Van worth? Query 2: How much has Burger King "lost" if you donate a cent and take the van? Replace "one cent donation to Burger King" with "opportunity cost of reviewing and writing a review of the software." Replace "Scoobie Doo Mystery Machine Van" with "copy of crypto product." Determine the cost of producing one software package. Subtract the opportunity cost of the reviewer from software package. production cost (or market cost if you prefer). Now, revist your statement above. > in case you're not as good in accounting as you think you are in > crypto. Uh, perhaps you better direct your keen and unblurred accounting acumen inward. > I have no idea what your rep. is ... but I know one thing, they're > offering an exchange of valuable software (market value: $99) for valuable > services (crypto-rebel review) The relevance of "market value" in the above paragraph is left as an exercise for the reader, as is the nature of the term "valuable software." > > Uh, the kiss ass paragraphs were the reviewers comments, not your code. > > I aggreed with the reviewers comments, they're mine too ... I've sent many > long E-mails to people I do computer service for endorsing Pronto Secure. Ok, and how much did it cost you in opportunity cost to write a few kiss ass paragraphs about the software? (Hint, it's almost certainly less than $99, and if not, the crypto company is taking you for a ride). > I have lined up 6 people who wish to purchase it. And thousands in this country have bought pet rocks. So? > This is for real pal. Thankfully, I am not your pal. I don't care if it is real or if it is not. The point is that certain marketing and review tactics make a crypto product, regardless of its merit, look like a pile of dung. Offering free copies to write reviews where that offer contains phrases like "a $99 value) is one such tactic. > If you don't like it, get out of the ring. A little dissention upsetting for you? If you don't like it, get off the list. > Some of us want our PGP to be nice and easy like E-mail used to be. I'm not sure why my comments are so clearly, to you, a value judgement about Pronto Secure itself. My comments were directed toward their marketing efforts and tactics. I have since come to believe that the marketing department there has got it on the money now, and understands the way those kind of offers go over with some individuals on the list. I suggest you consider reviewing my original message. Looks to me like you just replied to a reply to a reply. > Message Copyright 1996, Michael T. Babcock > http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From blancw at microsoft.com Tue Aug 27 22:23:25 1996 From: blancw at microsoft.com (Blanc Weber) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:23:25 +0800 Subject: Discussion: The Digital Commerce Clause [Long] [Was: Re: The Commerce Clause and the Crypto Issue] Message-ID: >From: Black Unicorn > >I believe the answer to preserving the purity of digital commerce is to >form it in such a way so as to make regulation impossible, because in my >view the constitution no longer provides citizens with the protection or >freedom to progress. I feel the same way about privacy. All the >constitutional arguments in the world mean little today. A systematic >approach which makes violations of personal rights impossible whether >constitutional or not is the answer. >..................................................... > > >I, like others on the list, have often misunderstood your references to court >cases and other legal stuff as indicators that you were being pessimistic, >discouraging, and presenting obstacles to free-thinking, imaginative ideas. > >The way in which you expressed yourself left out your true inclinations on >the subjects, and it would only be someone who had read a large number of >your posts who would realize what side of the issues you are really on. > >I agree very much with what you say in the above paragraph about the >constitutional arguments [by jove, I think he's got it :>)] So many times >people (especially libertarian types) will present their protests in >reference to constitutional issues. Yet there are some contradictions within >the Constitution, or areas which sound that way, and which are therefore too >easily misconstrued by present thinkers (judges, lawyers, etc.). > >So often the document is referred to like a magic mantra which is going to >take away the ills and boogeymen by waving it in front of their faces. But >the document is not so well read, understood, nor respected by those in >public office. It isn't used as a guide to move towards more self-reliance >rather than less. I have heard from one political potentiate that his >opponent (already in office) had not ever even read it. > >You can't depend upon adherence to the Constitution to create the reality >you're after (although, like a dart-shoot, you can always try and it does, >after all, supply the basics for the established legal procedures and it's >possible to set the fear of it upon government types by setting their feet to >its fire - if you can pay for it). > >(This gives me a sense of deja-vu: I think you and I had a long argument >about this on the list, once.) > > .. >Blanc > > > From bf578 at scn.org Tue Aug 27 22:32:06 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:32:06 +0800 Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) MSoft's reply... Message-ID: <199608280257.TAA25752@scn.org> Actually I think its thier lack of foreseeing how a produbt can and will be used. Problems throughout thier line of products show this off. Most of thier products are a creation of Microsoft anyway, they've stolen, borrowed, purchased or purchased the company to obtain their products, then added features upon features so they can market the hell out of it to become #1 in market share. Many cases they've taken a reliable product and made it less than reliable. I don't understand why people continue to support Microsoft they way they do! Ponder the thought of Microsoft buying up every web server/broswer company in the first year or two of the WEB? Would it have made it where it is today? Ponder the thought of Micorosft having ultimate control over the IETF >In my experience, one of Microsoft's main problems when it comes to security >has been its developers and program/product managers don't think like "bad >guys" when it comes to design and subsequent exploits and holes. >Unfortunately, the user is the ultimate loser. > >Joel > >BTW - The paranoid side of me wouldn't be surprised to see PC >"espionage-enabled" viruses and trojans within the next few years. Their >main purpose would be to either disable or patch various security features >for later attacks, or directly snatch information off of hard drives and >send it out over the Net. I know of a few lab projects of a similar nature, >that were very easy to implement. > BTW: When is this list/listserver going to convert the reply-to fields to point to cypherpunks at toad.com? -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From rah at shipwright.com Tue Aug 27 23:15:47 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:15:47 +0800 Subject: (flatulence): Reply-to loops In-Reply-To: <199608280257.TAA25752@scn.org> Message-ID: At 2:57 AM -0000 8/28/96, SCN User wrote: > BTW: When is this list/listserver going to convert the reply-to fields to > point to cypherpunks at toad.com? Never. We don't do it because of reply-to loops. Only idiots, or charitably, those with very low traffic, run their mail lists any other way. Accidentally sending private e-mail to the list is bad enough without bringing the listserver to its knees... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ([probationary] former idiot) ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Tue Aug 27 23:49:37 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:49:37 +0800 Subject: Nando.Net on Observer, Julf Message-ID: <01I8SF5X601C9JDBTS@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Good luck. Overall a positive article, although I've noted one definite goof. I wonder if it would be possible to sue this FBI idiot as well as The Observer? -Allen > Avis > FINN REJECTS INTERNET CHILD PORN CLAIMS __________________________________________________________________________ > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net > Copyright © 1996 Reuter Information Service > HELSINKI (Aug 26, 1996 10:53 a.m. EDT) - On the eve of a major > conference on child sex abuse, a Finnish Internet specialist on Monday > angrily dismissed allegations in a British newspaper that his system > handled up to 90 percent of child pornography on the Net. [...] > The newspaper reported the charges, by a U.S. policeman and FBI > adviser, in the run-up to an international conference in Stockholm on > the commercial sexual exploitation of children starting on Tuesday. > Finnish police also said they had found no evidence in areas they can > investigate that Helsingius's system is now being used to forward > child pornography on a large scale. > "We are working very closely with the authorities and the child > protection agencies -- I am always encouraging people to report any > incidence of child pornography they see on the Internet to police, so > that they can investigate and act," Helsingius told Reuters by > telephone. > The Observer quoted Toby Tyler, a Federal Bureau of Investigation > adviser on child abuse and pornography, as saying 75-90 percent of the > child pornography he saw on the Internet was forwarded through > Helsingius' system. > Internet remailers are computers which receive and forward messages > with a pseudonym or anonymous source. > There are about five in the world, and they exist to enable anonymous > discussion of sensitive subjects -- for instance by victims of child > abuse, potential suicides or people in politically repressed > societies. Five? Someone's miscounted... > Helsingius said one key reason his system would not be used for > pornorgaphy was that it has built-in capacity limitations which make > it impossible to send large pictures through it -- only small amounts > of text. > "Also the groups where pictures are carried...are not supported in my > server," he said. > It could be possible to compress and chop up picture material for use > through the server but this would involve using "tens or hundreds of > separate messages," he said. > Kai Malmberg, a Helsinki police specialist in Internet affairs, said > he had in the past found child pornography remailed through the server > but it had stopped since police started investigating. > "I've found really no evidence of the Finnish remailer being used for > child pornography," he said. "But we can't -- we don't want to -- > check people's mail. That would be like going into the post office and > opening all the letters. > "I believe that he's quite sincere in trying to protect his server for > people to discuss sensitive issues," he said. > Asked if his system could be used to carry child pornography through > individual e-mail messages, Helsingius said this was possible but not > on a large scale as it does not support e-mail systems which > simultaneously send to many recipients. > But he said it was possible for Internet experts to imitate his > remailer address to make it seem as if messages were coming through > his system. > "In a prevous case roughly a year ago we could find a couple of cases > of child porn," he said. "It was actually posted in the UK to the UK > -- it didn't come to Finland at all but it was being made to look like > it came from my server. Anyone can alter the origination information." > He said all the allegations about his remailer seemed to stem from > Tyler, yet he had been unable to contact him. Tyler was travelling to > the Stockholm conference on Monday and unavailable for comment. > "The fact that he's claiming 90 percent of the child porn goes through > my remailer is pretty far from the truth. There might be the > occasional instance and we are actively working against that," > Helsingius said. > "My reputation has been tarnished all over Europe. We will take legal > action, but we are not quite sure in what country." [...] > Copyright © 1996 Nando.net From mbabcock at tyenet.com Tue Aug 27 23:56:49 1996 From: mbabcock at tyenet.com (Michael T. Babcock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:56:49 +0800 Subject: Pronto making a comment Message-ID: <199608280425.VAA09757@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: liberty at gate.net, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 28 00:17:58 1996 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >Version: 2.6.3i > >Charset: ascii > >Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ > > How did you get Pronto to do a comment? > JMR I added a "comment=" in my config.txt ;) ... the old fashionned way. Message Copyright 1996, Michael T. Babcock http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock Send a message with the subject "Send public key" to receive an automatic reply with my public key. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: ascii Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ iQC1AgUBMiPIe9tTCwP6TF2xAQFk4wT/Z4gZo5FW3QbiMKEjcXylL0Q449x2ZvaC pJ+3i/ExfxoDgxgsRTo7b2/Rz0JWn5x8K1TnAABfoRrnDe/wtoBEGekzxh9U69MQ RT0m0leok3ep91QKE2WFdWPXw1WHmOduXD+rCPB4cjQ0yENYdHGMnPzTaLG/Y5t3 8q/sq0G4DA7xGbOqJkwa+ALmhaNMt+VTQIfX02RZC0lIJYhcdLs+mQ== =zMc7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Tue Aug 27 23:56:53 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:56:53 +0800 Subject: The Dangers of Complying with "Registration" Laws Message-ID: Several years ago, California decided that certain rifles which had previously been sold openly and without restriction were now to be classified as "assault rifles," and owners were to fill out forms and register them. (I don't recall if a fee was involved.) (Some of you readers may, of course, think that such guns are in fact more dangerous than, say, shotguns. This is not so, but this is also beside my point. My point is not to argue that a Colt AR-15 with various cosmetic features (such as "flash suppressor") should not be registered. Indeed, I take it as a given that such registration is in violation of the Second Amendment. Rather, my point is about the dangers of complying with such registration laws.) It turns out that the suckers who voluntarily registered the so-called assault rifles they owned were subjected to _additional_ and _unwarranted_ delays in later purchases. The article below refers to some cases. Not surprisingly, the act of voluntarily registering an "assault rifle" placed one on a computerized list of suspicious citizen-units. (I'm glad I had the presence of mind not to register my Colt AR-15, bought in 1975, and having the "evil features" which the criminals in Congress declared to be evil. Had I done so, I might have been unable to buy the various guns I've bought recently.) Although guns are not the same as crypto, and comparisons of crypto to firearms are flawed, the lesson is that one should NEVER VOLUNTEER! No doubt in 1999, when citizen-units are ordered to voluntarily register their copies of assualt cryptography tools, those who step forward like lambs to the slaughter will find themselves on lists of subversive citizen-units. Yet more of a reason for Stego-PGP. This article appeared in rec.guns: In article <4vssg2$3dh at xring.cs.umd.edu>, wd6cmu at netcom.com (Eric Williams) wrote: > In a previous post, John C. Woo (jwoo at rezn8.com) wrote: > : Eric Williams wrote: > : # I read somewhere (I can look it up if someone cares) that the DOJ is > : # holding up paperwork on purchases by people who have registered their > : # "assault rifle" with the state. Has anyone experienced this? > > : This is starting to sound like a conspiracy. > : I DO happen to own a registered AR-15 here > : in sunny California. > > : I would be interested to know where you discovered > : this tasty tidbit. > > It came from an paper by David Kopel, "Why gun waiting periods threaten > public safety." (Journal on Firearms and Public Policy, V1 #4, summer > '92) He writes: > > About 10% of California's 300,000 "assault weapon" owners have registered > their weapons, as required by law. The group that complied with the > retroactive registration law surely qualifies as a highly law-abiding > set of people. Yet this group of highly law-abiding gun-owners, when > they attempt to buy a new rifle or pistol following California's 15-day > waiting period, find that the California Department of Justice has put a > 1 to 4 month hold on their applications because they are registered > "assault weapon" owners. > > As a cite, he references LA Daily News, March 4, 1991, a letter > to the editor by William Davis under the title "Gun Law Backfires". > The letter was from a law enforcement officer and licensed federal > firearms dealer whose application was put on hold. > -- > Eric Williams | wd6cmu at netcom.com | WD6CMU at WD6CMU.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM > > "The information superhighway is a revolution that in years to come will > transcend newspapers, radio, and television as an information source. > Therefore, I think this is the time to put some restrictions on it." > -- Sen. James Exon (D-Neb.) We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 28 00:06:24 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:06:24 +0800 Subject: Hayek (was: Cato Institute conference on Net-regulation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4TscTD14w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Senile tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) rants: > Indeed, Hayek has had a _lot_ to do with the Cypherpunks! From "The Road to > Serfdom" to "Law, Legislation, and Liberty," his works have exerted a > profound influence on me, and on many others. But he's fucking unreadable. I plan to teach economic this semester and make every student read Hazlitt (economics in 1 lesson). I can't force them to read hayek (or Rothbard) because they're fucking unreadable. Shit. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From wiechman at iconnet.com Wed Aug 28 00:07:37 1996 From: wiechman at iconnet.com (wiechman at iconnet.com) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:07:37 +0800 Subject: WORD Mail: A Part of Our Lives... Message-ID: <9608280446.AA00120@word.iconnet.net> Dear Friends of Word [http://www.word.com]: Two things: 1. Word has been nominated for 3 (three) of the 1996 Cool Site of the Year Awards (Cool Site of the Year, Cool Design of the Year, and Cool Web Designer of the Year). Please vote for us. We're literally begging you. Does this seem desperate? Cool Site of the Year is located at http://cool.infi.net/vote.html 2. Please check out Word [http://www.word.com]. Right now you can experience our special feature "Guyana," a super-deluxe documentary about three NYC artists' (Bob Braine, Mark Dion, and Alexis Rockman) six-week trek through the Amazon jungle. It's got art, animation, text, and an original score. Sort of like a movie. But not. Anyway, it's real good. Mmmmm! Truly Yours, WORD 3. I know we said there would only be two things, but we just thought we should mention that if you've requested to be removed from our mailing list, it *will* happen very soon. We've had a bit of trouble keeping everything up to date. Word swears to remove you from the list. From mbabcock at tyenet.com Wed Aug 28 00:08:43 1996 From: mbabcock at tyenet.com (Michael T. Babcock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:08:43 +0800 Subject: Key Exchange Request Message-ID: <199608280446.AAA01992@spirit.hks.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Type Bits/KeyID Date User ID pub 1280/FA4C5DB1 1996/06/13 Michael T. Babcock Michael T. Babcock - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3i Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ mQCtAzHAhC8AAAEFAMG+C+yN8q7KDT5TUSdyQNZlDDlTGuF4vUzPEq52lrqx7NAA YwJuj0dtOnnU2GAAonNutYF7nbbsS5yjWWgENioKOzIdjgDpq+YBZDkX4kFTD/+5 PM5EZhS1kT54zDpbjlZHtu9ViL3xUD/vp5zmp7Mlxqdd5SbkM0bpIBlBIqfpij59 hOVgc837YtAMmAbuRzwzy06/5ne221MLA/pMXbEABRG0KE1pY2hhZWwgVC4gQmFi Y29jayA8bWJhYmNvY2tAdHllbmV0LmNvbT6JALUCBRAyG4B8iNNjBTZRc5UBAQgN BQCUEtqBZp6AHxuzl8ul5YdrgSmVzL5KZ+h5ZSsahq3Z880Z2+iL2nHlQxE/Kx+A +sBALnqjcZ1jFVd//kdUW3Z6MR805txMXhxSm8350uxv9SVgR9fFatuBphyMY3+H JCJABOD8W/78l+ryKzrDIkTRcZZ/ZfAIFx8CuQbHAHREbd5WxUvwYD1RmYN0roEm lX08htgUVpM5KrsdO1QFZXJciQCVAwUQMdnXD03i+M8vT7SzAQGdPgP/U/LYSAdj Fv9F9B+B0zzUOUyZVzP+esMRLVja69FXpLvpSbzHZuibwgx6iHzQvJU7FgoNR6Le xMjVobVz6dvQNn4Cyv/IVSYhQ7OeQpVpPROMd7oNpi2REond6iTulNwJ582yNWbg HpXF+rcyQGLSZW1M97dstKVJaA1M+1I+KBiJAJUDBRAxwISNpWTgrlDImaUBAXK9 BACT9ZVN4CQonU8MhzZXNepMm2k3xAkM/01e1vjqjnHR95g9xysVJCeSh0aky+Jk v7Yok5hRLhZ8CWmt+n/vAEZI6thIJlF++CLX6XHaZVN0sXtOKJuzsu1za4Kllqbf nRKkEKjixFQk37sDUHJPehiy7tYWVF364A5KQU9K7JenDIkAtQMFEDHAhDDbUwsD +kxdsQEBo9wE/1TDLucmWU8nIQ3izH8bDLHv8UNfyKItlMwKQXcokOxFV1lhxtKu RhsBjIiLD3iBXG7xd/Q8EgV9gbAXJ0IfdMBEXUbAqNgZBu0sPT5OWtdxQ4l7/uXl A0bHNGe8/O+L76bq81dWn7i/iyggIDpcSYYp4pCqm0fPQFS8eMUc5fwQMhODgVH2 WTSKbIZrSXYUjv9Nu1hAHeo1xB7tyJCJePi0LE1pY2hhZWwgVC4gQmFiY29jayA8 bWJhYmNvY2tAY3liZXJiZWFjaC5uZXQ+iQCVAwUQMcCKaqVk4K5QyJmlAQF56gP9 F/kU8pMxVJdCDFVXyXm9STzEwZauLzMAHbIqWE7RzzDX1jX6e4bFDkpOP79SM19K RMrB70IQ/0OerNDGA3foMTFde79CZwSN+sE4CBIziEzClCkoZR8lsURgrNCpgrfD SfefCMERK2wsPRCHTm1/SQoc107xgPdZKV2MTsKa+l6JALUDBRAxwIo/21MLA/pM XbEBAbXOBPsFGBbIKo04YVMaQRQXUXNJNaFys21ZforSlLXX6jh9XVnPfTzJHbba lYtzBNMSzTn1S2INJUTsmakfMWSi3yghi6BVlBPJDhaC/lbmUPzbs1UtGwKzTJPP oIW0ogvNiBUnEJBXLyEpLg4DDsmg74jT23m9kDIY5IT9tDQy2l+bVlDUl341DCSw qd98jWjPf38BgLOldtanlYiYfSBcVIdO =N34I - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- This message was sent by Pronto Secure Mail. Above is my public key. Please send your public key by return mail. - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBMiPPNCoZzwIn1bdtAQHwiAGA25takabrZ8cinCavjJ4DMhYclePThtCz 2Wy+KH/pT42RVsMDtPvmwKeF8MEffw1N =QuAh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 28 00:16:42 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:16:42 +0800 Subject: Scoring Politicians on Digital Liberty Issues (Re: Net Politics) Message-ID: (I have no idea where the virtual nexus of this debate is taking place...I see these addresses copied on the message to which I'm replying: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu, cypherpunks at toad.com, brock at well.com, telstar at wired.com, shabbir at vtw.org, jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger), Declan McCullagh . I despise such massive cross-contamination of lists and duplication of messages, so I will delete all but the list I am part of, and Jonah Seiger, out of courtesy, as it his message I am replying to.) At 2:23 PM 8/27/96, Jonah Seiger wrote: >"One more round of 'work within the system' vs 'up against the wall!'," he >said. > >This is an important debate that unfortunately seems to be dividing the >net.community when we most need to be united. All of us working on >net-policy issues share a common vision and goals - promoting the free flow >of information, preserving and enhancing First Amendment values and >protecting individual privacy. There are, for better or worse, many >different views on the best way to accomplish those objectives, and the >debate over who has the right tactics seems to frequently escalate in to >religious war. > >Meanwhile, our opponents are well organized, determined, and do a much >better job of keeping their internal strategic differences to themselves. >Perhaps this is part of the reason they keep kicking our butts all over >town. I think it laudable that CDT has chosen to remain in D.C. to "work within the system." Personally, I could never stomach doing this. Nor do I think the Cypherpunks group per se should do it; technological monkeywrenching of the best-laid plans of Leahy, Swinestein, and all the other "mice and men" is so much more effective and satisfying. Yes, as far as legislation goes, the politicians are constantly on the offensive, proposing new and more draconian legislation on a continuing basis. Maybe they hope to wear us out, to create battle fatigue (some say it worked with EFF, but I've heard various reasons given as to why EFF left D.C.). But technology also is winning, in its own way. Web proxies defeat national governments in their plans to limit access. Remailers have transformed the Net. Digital pseudonyms have restored anonymous commentaries to their once-honored place. And the sheer growth of the Net, the Web, and the vast number of connections has made Leahy- and Exon-style control essentially hopeless to enforce. On the specific issue of whether Sen. Leahy is or is not a "friend of the Net," to use him as an example here, I suggest a different approach. Instead of classifying Leahy as a friend or an enemy, or Burns as a friend or an enemy, etc., why not a *ratings system*? As with the "perfect 100%" liberal ratings that the ACLU or somesuch puts out... Thus, we can say "Conrad Burns has scored a 67% on Digital Liberty issues, Patrick Leahy has scored a 42% on these issues, and Dianne Feinstein scored 17%." Determination would have to be made on what the important issues, but this has been done successfully in the past, as with the liberal groups and union groups (and conservative/NRA/family values groups) who "score" candidates. A scoring system has the advantage of looking relatively impartial, and avoids the "friend/enemy" naming, at least in terms of personalities. Thus, one can say to Leahy, "Sorry, Senator, this is just how you score. If you want to score higher in the future, take careful note of what our community thinks is important and vote accordingly." The issues for a scorecard might be accumulated on the Net, with inputs from CDT, VTW, EFF, Cypherpunks, and other interested groups. It could be messy, but perhaps not. Even a *simple* set of principles, picked by almost any of these organizations, would likely be enough to get a reasonable scoring system...it's not as if we all don't know that Leahy's support for the Digital Telephony Bill was a major downcheck--whatever the realpolitik issues were--and that his support of Pro-Code is a major upcheck. The value of scoring is that it takes out the often-painful issues of classifying politicians as "friends" or "enemies." Objective scoring means never having to say you're sorry. --Tim may -- [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency Act of 1996] And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said: "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck." So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular Translation, TCM, 1996] From jimbell at pacifier.com Wed Aug 28 00:24:04 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:24:04 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" Message-ID: <199608280419.VAA01883@mail.pacifier.com> While I, on the other hand, am surprised by your over-optimistic tone. Bills in Congress are, technically, ALWAYS up for public comment. And yes, they are almost always subject to amendment. But the REALITY (remember reality?!?) is that once a bill has been officially introduced in Congress, it is substantially more difficult to add a good part, or remove a bad part, than if the bill remained on a word-processor or was simply put on the 'net for comments. The status-quo system might have made sense in the pre-Internet era, when the public familiarity of issues and/or legislation was less, or communication costs to the public were higher, etc. But today, when it's easy and cheap to put the text of a proposed bill on the Internet, it simply no longer makes sense to not accept public comment BEFORE the "high-hysteresis" environment of Congress has been entered. Here's what is REALLY going on. Congress wants to maintain the illusion that the public actually has some input into the way bills are drafted. But in reality, they want essentially total control. One of the many biases inserted into the system to ensure this control is maintained is to disguise the extent to which special interests (and Congress, itself, is a "special interest") get to dictate how law reads. Consider the alternative, and in particular the Leahy crypto bill, and even more particularly the portion of that bill criminalizing the use of encryption in a way which thwarts an investigation. Suppose the pieces of entire bill, before actual filing, had been publicly posted on the Internet, and there had been either a vote or at least a collection of comments about the individual proposed sections. What would have happened? That portion of the bill would have gotten flamed and rejected, with a large majority opposing it. Moreover, we would all have KNOWN that it had been rejected. At that point, if Leahy still insisted on including it, it would be tantamount to giving the 'net his middle finger, and we would have rightly lambasted Leahy, as he deserved. Moreover, we would have known that someone was pushing that part of the bill, and could reasonably insist that he is identified. But the way Leahy actually proposed it, in a package that had been put together in secret, it isn't clear how much Leahy detests our opinions, and he might actually have gotten away with foisting this on us. See the difference? An open system holds legislators to a much higher standard, which is why they don't like it and is why we should insist on it. An open system reveals to the public if their interests are being followed. An open system will allow more people to become aware of being screwed by politicians, maybe even before it happens, and it will allow them to reject legislative proposals which contain undesirable portions, particularly portions which are written into a bill despite opposition. _THAT_ could, hypothetically, become the "legislative process" someday. In fact, it SHOULD BE the legislative process. I consider the current system illegitimate to the extent (at least!) that it is biased against public participation. At 08:51 AM 8/27/96 -0400, John Raffetto wrote: >Jim -- I'm surprised by your message. Members of Congress rarely introduce >bills and say take it or leave it. Rather, by introducing a bill, they're >offering it up for public comment. After introduction, the bill is referred >to a committee, and perhaps a subcommittee, where there are hearings and the >like. The lobbyists swarm in, constituent letters roll in. Then the bill >is marked up in committee, and emerges in a revised form. > >If you want to vet a proposed piece of legislation on the Internet, then >copy the text off of THOMAS and post it... then participate in the >legislative process. > >John Raffetto > > >> >>I believe that it is particularly suspicious that these bills come into >>existance without even cursory "vetting" on the Internet. Both the Leahy >>bill and even the Burns crypto bill popped into public view without any >>indication of how they were written, or any public input on their intent and >>scope. Perhaps this "take it or leave it" practice is old hat to >>politicians, but frankly I'm disgusted at politicians' presumption that they >>can prepare a law with no identifiable input from the public. >> >>I am similarly disgusted at any organization (even if, ostensibly, acting in >>support of "net freedom") that assisted in the development of the Leahy >>crypto bill (and to some extent, even the Burns bill) because they clearly >>failed to solicit the kind of public input that such bills should >>automatically get. >> >>And in a sense, "the Net" doesn't NEED "strong supporters": what we need are >>politicians who are willing to LEAVE US ALONE! It should come as no >>surprise that the call you frequently see among net-freedom- supporters for >>new legislation is that which repeals existing restrictive laws, such as >>ITAR and censorship laws. >> >>Jim Bell >>jimbell at pacifier.com >> >> > > > > Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From steven at echonyc.com Wed Aug 28 01:02:57 1996 From: steven at echonyc.com (Steven Levy) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:02:57 +0800 Subject: Denning interview in Wired In-Reply-To: <199608271723.KAA23960@netcom23.netcom.com> Message-ID: Didn't mean to be defensive or criticize you, Vladimir. Just wanted to make it clear that the story didn't necessarily include all her reasonings. You make some fine points. From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 28 01:08:35 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:08:35 +0800 Subject: Hayek (was: Cato Institute conference on Net-regulation) Message-ID: At 4:26 AM 8/28/96, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >Senile tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) rants: >> Indeed, Hayek has had a _lot_ to do with the Cypherpunks! From "The Road to >> Serfdom" to "Law, Legislation, and Liberty," his works have exerted a >> profound influence on me, and on many others. > >But he's fucking unreadable. I plan to teach economic this semester and >make every student read Hazlitt (economics in 1 lesson). I can't force them >to read hayek (or Rothbard) because they're fucking unreadable. Shit. Well, to one who inserts "(spit)" after nearly every name he cites, and critiques Hayek as "fucking unreadable. Shit.," I suppose Hayek must indeed seem unreadable. Shit. After all, Hayek rarely writes things like: "The senile Von Mises (spit) and his Sovok Cabal plotters...." As to "forcing" your students to read Hayek, just who is in charge? If you're the instructor, they can choose to read what you tell them to read, or be unprepared on the exams you give and possibly flunk the class. What part of "Required Reading" do you or your students not understand? --Tim (spit) May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 28 01:27:54 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:27:54 +0800 Subject: Discussion: The Digital Commerce Clause [Long] [Was: Re: The Commerce Clause and the Crypto Issue] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Blanc Weber wrote: > >From: Black Unicorn > > > >I believe the answer to preserving the purity of digital commerce is to > >form it in such a way so as to make regulation impossible, because in my > >view the constitution no longer provides citizens with the protection or > >freedom to progress. I feel the same way about privacy. All the > >constitutional arguments in the world mean little today. A systematic > >approach which makes violations of personal rights impossible whether > >constitutional or not is the answer. > >..................................................... [...] > >I agree very much with what you say in the above paragraph about the > >constitutional arguments [by jove, I think he's got it :>)] So many times > >people (especially libertarian types) will present their protests in > >reference to constitutional issues. Yet there are some contradictions within > >the Constitution, or areas which sound that way, and which are therefore too > >easily misconstrued by present thinkers (judges, lawyers, etc.). > > > >So often the document is referred to like a magic mantra which is going to > >take away the ills and boogeymen by waving it in front of their faces. But > >the document is not so well read, understood, nor respected by those in > >public office. It isn't used as a guide to move towards more self-reliance > >rather than less. I have heard from one political potentiate that his > >opponent (already in office) had not ever even read it. > > > >You can't depend upon adherence to the Constitution to create the reality > >you're after (although, like a dart-shoot, you can always try and it does, > >after all, supply the basics for the established legal procedures and it's > >possible to set the fear of it upon government types by setting their feet to > >its fire - if you can pay for it). With all the talk of self-enforcing contracts via cryptography, it is a bit surprising to me that no one has suggested a constitution (which is basically a unilateral contract) be enforced in such a matter, or in an indirect way through technology. I do find it sad that it seems that rights today must be enforced despite, and not by, trust. Perhaps soon there will exist institutions which make rights inalienable in fact, not in theory. > >Blanc -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From jf_avon at citenet.net Wed Aug 28 01:33:06 1996 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:33:06 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" Message-ID: <9608280621.AA29030@cti02.citenet.net> On 27 Aug 96 at 21:16, jim bell wrote: > See the difference? An open system holds legislators to a much > higher standard, which is why they don't like it and is why we > should insist on it. Fine Jim, but how? Any idea of a system that could lead to that? JFA who's ROTFL! DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee; Limoges porcelain, silverware and crystal JFA Technologies, R&D consultants: physicists, technologists and engineers. PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 From dfloyd at io.com Wed Aug 28 01:33:37 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:33:37 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608280536.AAA01510@xanadu.io.com> > > > > On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > > > If you have another 386 or 486 lying around, you could install Linux and > > Ian's encrypted loopback code on a remote box, then NFS or Samba the > > filesystem over. For protection, you could modify the vlock command to > > lock the console (and not unlock it), and disable inetd. Then, unless > > someone has the permissions to access the files through the network, the > > files are inaccessable ;-). > > I may have to consider this approach. I'll have to look into Ian's system. > Does it pass muster with the crypto gods? (that's meant as a compliment > guys :) It uses IDEA in a decently secure manner, as well as TDES. You can also mount .au files as filesystems, and the data will be hidden in the sound file. (Last place I remember Ian's loop.c and des patches for Linux was on ftp.csua.berkeley.edu, /pub/cypherpunks/) > > Drifter > From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 28 02:06:07 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:06:07 +0800 Subject: FYI: GOP's Stolen Laptop... Message-ID: <199608280700.AAA11957@toad.com> At 04:41 PM 8/27/96 -0500, Andrew Loewenstern wrote: >> They should have used PGP on those files..... > >...but I thought fine, upstanding, and law-abiding citizens didn't have >anything to hide... These are _Republicans_, Andrew! :-) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From matthew at itconsult.co.uk Wed Aug 28 02:43:12 1996 From: matthew at itconsult.co.uk (Matthew Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:43:12 +0800 Subject: An open letter to the Editor of The Observer Message-ID: <3224ef54.383859120@itconsult.co.uk> [I understand the text of the Observer article is available at http://www.hclb.demon.co.uk/obs.txt] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I. T. Consultancy Limited Our reference L2217 The Editor The Observer 119 Farringdon Road London EC1R 3ER 26 August 1996 AN OPEN LETTER � FOR PUBLICATION Sir, I read with some interest the article by David Connett and Jon Henley in yesterday's edition regarding the Internet and child pornography. I was particularly interested as I am a computer consultant advising clients on Internet issues. In my professional opinion, the technical standard of the reporting was sufficiently poor as to be both inaccurate and misleading. The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain technical issues which might cause your readers to reach unfounded or incorrect conclusions. It is important to be aware of the various methods by which information generally (which can include pornography) is distributed around the Internet. Your article focuses on one particular route, namely Newsgroups. It is Newsgroups which are detailed in the Metropolitan Police's letter to Internet Providers and which are concentrated upon by your article. There are several other means of distributing information. I believe however that the Police letter lists fewer than the 150 groups referred to by the authors. Interestingly enough Newsgroups only offer the means of broadcasting information to anyone who wants to retrieve it. The authors do not appear to have a sufficient grasp of what a "remailer" does. For example they seem to draw a direct link between the use of such remailers and people being able to "log on and participate in 'live' and 'interactive' filmed sessions". A lay reader would perhaps draw the inference that the remailer is somehow involved in any such live participation. Unfortunately this could not be further from the truth. Remailers simply allow people to post messages, either as email to other people or to Newsgroups for general reading. Nothing more. Remailers are generally incapable of being "logged on" to. Your article also refers to "remailing companies", from which the lay reader might infer that remailers are operated for commercial profit. Such an inference would again be wholly incorrect. I know of no organisation operating a remailer for profit, indeed none of them even charge for their services. They are generally run by individuals on a voluntary basis who consider them as a service to the Internet community. Your article appears not to mention any of the purposes of such remailers other than in terms of the distribution of pornography. In my view it would be difficult to present a balanced article without doing so. Different remailers take different steps to prevent whatever their operators consider as "abuse". My understanding is that Mr. Helsingius' service restricts messages to 48k bytes (or characters) and prohibits postings to the "binaries" newsgroups designated for images. I also understand that it only allows 30 messages per user per day. At a technical level these restrictions would make it almost impossible to use his service for mass distribution of any binary data, not just pornography. It therefore appears surprising to me that your article should allege that Mr. Helsingius' remailer is responsible for handling "90 per cent of all child pornography" on the Internet. I wonder what substantiating evidence The Observer has to this effect other than the alleged claim by Toby Tyler. Indeed it appears from your article that the words "is supplied through this remailer" may not be a direct quote from Toby Tyler. Your article alleges that "the photographs made available to Demon's subscribers through the Internet are supplied anonymously by remailing companies". The lay reader might infer from this that all photographs therefore come via remailers. Again this would be far from the truth. Finally I hope this letter offers some assistance to your readers in clarifying a number of issues which were perhaps less than clear in your article. Given your newspaper's difficulties with technical issues, I would be grateful if you would kindly refer any editing of this letter to me prior to publication. Yours faithfully, Matthew Richardson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAgUBMiFvEAKwLwcHEv69AQGjIQP+IGR9rhvdYXe7CuCcwPl/tIrIBryikTM2 IVOpygTF2nCPf3WEJ8czRvs1emp9d9d++69XiG1f6QAeP9Jv/h9KzVtV7mjjuqCX LhlhXBYjLIiGCcxljKZ07zHFlCeZWCzuAmIFnZbz2fNNjqyicheIMlxI2tDrGgjp dlaGZuAI2XY= =dkXg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wendell at singnet.com.sg Wed Aug 28 02:47:21 1996 From: wendell at singnet.com.sg (Wendell Lee) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:47:21 +0800 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Code Review Guidelines (draft)] Message-ID: <304171D2.77A3@singnet.com.sg> unsubcribe wendell at singnet.com.sg To: hag at ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Code Review Guidelines (draft) From: lists at lina.inka.de (Bernd Eckenfels) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 03:30:49 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: ichudov at algebra.com, adam at homeport.org, firewalls at greatcircle.com, cypherpunks at toad.com, coderpunks at toad.com In-Reply-To: <199608272111.RAA23997 at galapas.ai.mit.edu> from "Daniel Hagerty" at Aug 27, 96 05:11:39 pm Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Hi, > Much better, look at rfc822. (I wouldn't consider *anything* that > has the word "sendmail" in it a good reference). its much better if you dont rely on the content of the string at all. Dont use sh -c or system and you will be save. Simply asume that all characters are valid in user suplied strings and treat them exactly that way... If they need to be exporeted then unfortunately they need to be 'untainted' and this should be done by positive not negative lists as mentioned in the guidelines. Greetings Bernd PS: I have collected the references on http://www.inka.de/sites/lina/freefire-l/ -- (OO) -- Bernd_Eckenfels at Wittumstrasse13.76646Bruchsal.de -- ( .. ) ecki@{lina.inka.de,linux.de} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/A2C51749 eckes at irc +4972573817 *plush* (O____O) If privacy is outlawed only Outlaws have privacy From accessnt at ozemail.com.au Wed Aug 28 03:09:35 1996 From: accessnt at ozemail.com.au (Mark Neely) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:09:35 +0800 Subject: Australian Interbet Betting System Gets US Interest 08/26/96 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960828082856.006d5744@ozemail.com.au> >>CentreBet can be reached at http://www.taunet.com.au/centrebet BTW .. that is //www.taunet.net.au/centrebet ^^^ Regards, Mark ___ Mark Neely - accessnt at ozemail.com.au Lawyer, Internet Consultant, Professional Cynic Author: Australian Beginner's Guide to the Internet (2nd Ed.) Australian Business Guide to the Internet Internet Guide for Teachers, Students & Parents Check out my Anti-SPAM FAQ: http://www.accessnt.com.au/faqs/spam.htm From jcr at pirate Wed Aug 28 03:34:01 1996 From: jcr at pirate (John C. Randolph) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:34:01 +0800 Subject: Identification docs needed. Message-ID: <9608280826.AA00285@pirate.thoughtport.com> c'punks, Sorry for the off-topic post, but I think that the resourceful people on this list might be able to help. I have a friend here in NYC who is in a bit of a bind, because she has *no* id. Her birth was never recorded (i.e. no birth certificate!) So, the question is: Anyone have any suggestions as to how one could obtain documentation that would pass muster with the local passport office? I'm hoping to help her obtain the documentation she needs to get on an airplane without gaining too much attention from the JBT's. BTW, she was born a US citizen in Puerto Rico. Baptismal records may be forthcoming, but that isn't certain. advTHANKSance, -jcr From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Aug 28 07:02:28 1996 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:02:28 +0800 Subject: (Fwd) Re: **"OuR" Project press release** (fwd) Message-ID: <199608281137.GAA08101@einstein> Hi all, I thought I would forward this so those less connected might know of amateur space technology. With a factor of 5 increase in altitude these folks will be putting things in LEO. My guess, 3-5 years. Forwarded message: > From postmaster at ddg.com Tue Aug 27 23:25:59 1996 > Message-Id: <199608280351.WAA21839 at oak.zilker.net> > Comments: Authenticated sender is > From: "Stu Barrett" > Organization: Personal Business > To: hct at ddg.com > Reply-To: hct at ddg.com > Errors-To: postmaster at ddg.com > Precedence: bulk > X-Listserver: AutoShare 1.0.2fc14 by Mikael Hansen > X-Administrivia-To: Stu Barrett (Stu at Zilker.net) > X-To-Unsubscribe: autoshare at ddg.com, body: unsub hct > X-See-Also: http://www.DDG.com/ > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:53:36 -6 > Subject: (Fwd) Re: **"OuR" Project press release** > Priority: normal > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) > > Pulled this off of the net. The was even better than SkyeDance IV ;-) > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > Paul Robinson & Ken Mizoi wrote: > > > > To All Fellow Rocketeers: > > > > The "OuR" project was launched Friday, August 16th, 1996 at 9:05 PST. > > All available flight data is still being analyzed so any information > > presented is preliminary and is provided for the courtesy of all those > > who have supported the "OuR" team. > > > > First, the principal members of the "OuR" team are, in alphabetical > > order, Frank Kosdon, Phil Prior, Paul Robinson, and Jim Rosson. These > > dedicated souls spent two years of dedicated research and effort, not > > to mention tens of thousands of dollars, to build and fly the "OuR" > > project. > > > > The R motor is a proprietary engine design with the propellant > > provided by Frank Kosdon. It was 10.5" in diameter and contained > > almost 300 pounds of propellant, including a 21 pound, full diameter > > delay "cake" for tracking. It was calculated to burn for 10.5 > > seconds, and provide 285,000 Newtons of total impulse. Yes, in > > rocketeer terms an R27,000! > > > > The airframe was 21 feet long, with a 5 to 1 conical nose. The gross > > launch mass was about 700 pounds. On board was a ten watt video > > downlink, provided by Jon Dunbar, a Trimble GPS, video overlay and > > associated electronics, provided by Bob Rau, and various other backup > > electronics. Both main and drouge parachutes were provided by Bob > > Stroud. > > > > The rocket was launched in almost no winds, pointing a few degrees > > away from the town of Gerlach, NV for safety reasons. The rocket flew > > perfectly straight and the motor functioned flawlessly with a total > > activity time around 12 to 14 seconds. The rocket coasted for about > > 80 seconds, slightly more than calculated, into the ozone layer. The > > altitude simulations pointed to an expected altitude of just under > > 100,000 feet. With the increased activity time and increased coast > > time, the altitude most likely exceeded 100,000 feet. > > > > One highlight of this flight was the video data transmitted back to > > earth from approximately twenty miles in the sky. What was seen was a > > clear outline of the entire Black Rock Dessert and the surrounding > > terrain, the curvature of the earth, and the great blackness of the > > space. > > > > Higher altitudes are accessible by smaller rockets, but the intent of > > this project was to successfully build and fire a "large" rocket > > motor. Previously, only commercial enterprises have had success with > > motors of over four inches in diameter and the results of last year's > > BALLS launch support this presumption. Furthermore, the instruments > > carried aloft simply would not fit in say a 54mm "altitude optimized" > > motor. > > > > Unfortunately, the rocket failed to deploy its recovery systems and > > accelerated to over Mach 1 and impacted into the sand dunes several > > miles away. There was a loud sonic boom heard by all that literally > > shook the earth. In fact, instead of the nominal "hole and fin slits" > > seen in previous impacts, there was a twenty foot diameter area with > > large chunks of sheared earth as if a high energy charge had been > > detonated under the ground. The rocket was not recovered, but several > > pieces of metal, fiberglass, and burnt Nomex were found indicating the > > ejection charges did in fact fire. > > > > As more data is analyzed, and more hard facts are gathered, more > > information will follow. Furthermore, the rights to the video are in > > the negotiation stage with the various film crews present, but do > > expect a very detailed video from Earl Cagle of Point 39 Productions. > > > > Once again, the "OuR" Project members wish to express sincere thanks > > to all those who listened, donated, and gave their support who were > > not specifically named. This project would not have flown if were not > > for the "believers" and the tremendous team spirit. Only they know > > the sweat and the number of hours it takes to fly such a rocket. > > > > Members of the "OuR" Team > > ----------------- > Stu Barrett > e-mail: stu at zilker.net > Phone: 512-255-6052 > > "Out the transceiver, down the coax, through the router, down the > fiber, off another router, down the T1, past the firewall.....nothing > but Net." > From jburrell at crl.com Wed Aug 28 07:29:41 1996 From: jburrell at crl.com (Jason Burrell) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:29:41 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption In-Reply-To: <199608280536.AAA01510@xanadu.io.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > > I may have to consider this approach. I'll have to look into Ian's system. > > Does it pass muster with the crypto gods? (that's meant as a compliment > > guys :) > > It uses IDEA in a decently secure manner, as well as TDES. You can also > mount .au files as filesystems, and the data will be hidden in the sound > file. > > (Last place I remember Ian's loop.c and des patches for Linux was on > ftp.csua.berkeley.edu, /pub/cypherpunks/) > ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux. I haven't looked through the code very hard yet, but I do wonder how the passphrase and such is stored. If I run losetup and setup /root/stego_file.au as a filesystem on /dev/loop0, does that get stored anywhere that isn't secure from non-root processes, or that is kept after the filesystem is unmounted? I figure the passphrase definately is removed as soon as the filesystem is unmounted, and that this is stored in protected kernel memory. From Scottauge at aol.com Wed Aug 28 08:13:32 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:13:32 +0800 Subject: SCO giving free licenses to UNIX OpenServer Message-ID: <960828080524_511466918@emout19.mail.aol.com> Hit www.sco.com Pick What's New Look for UNIX Unbound. Read, Understand, and Delight... Microsoft maybe in trouble at last. This is for single user home based UNIX systems. Was announced August 19, don't know how long this is to happen. From anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com Wed Aug 28 08:16:23 1996 From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com (anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:16:23 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? Message-ID: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> I snagged this off a news group this AM.. comments?? A lot of people think that PGP encryption is unbreakable and that the NSA/FBI/CIA/MJ12 cannot read their mail. This is wrong, and it can be a deadly mistake. In Idaho, a left-wing activist by the name of Craig Steingold was arrested _one day_ before he and others where to stage a protest at government buildings; the police had a copy of a message sent by Steingold to another activist, a message which had been encrypted with PGP and sent through E-mail. Since version 2.1, PGP ("Pretty Good Privacy") has been rigged to allow the NSA to easily break encoded messages. Early in 1992, the author, Paul Zimmerman, was arrested by Government agents. He was told that he would be set up for trafficking narcotics unless he complied. The Government agency's demands were simple: He was to put a virtually undetectable trapdoor, designed by the NSA, into all future releases of PGP, and to tell no-one. After reading this, you may think of using an earlier version of PGP. However, any version found on an FTP site or bulletin board has been doctored. Only use copies acquired before 1992, and do NOT use a recent compiler to compile them. Virtually ALL popular compilers have been modified to insert the trapdoor (consisting of a few trivial changes) into any version of PGP prior to 2.1. Members of the boards of Novell, Microsoft, Borland, AT&T and other companies were persuaded into giving the order for the modification (each ot these companies' boards contains at least one Trilateral Commission member or Bilderberg Committee attendant). It took the agency more to modify GNU C, but eventually they did it. The Free Software Foundation was threatened with "an IRS investigation", in other words, with being forced out of business, unless they complied. The result is that all versions of GCC on the FTP sites and all versions above 2.2.3, contain code to modify PGP and insert the trapdoor. Recompiling GCC with itself will not help; the code is inserted by the compiler into itself. Recompiling with another compiler may help, as long as the compiler is older than from 1992. From gary at systemics.com Wed Aug 28 08:17:06 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:17:06 +0800 Subject: A _REALLY_ Interesting Bet In-Reply-To: <199608272002.OAA27298@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Message-ID: <322439A4.69D8BD19@systemics.com> Anonymous wrote: > > Betting on football is one thing, but some of us would be very > interested in the odds on US presidential election outcomes as > November approaches. This kind of betting is illegal here, and > I haven't looked lately for a "Ladbroke's" type site, but it is > interesting because the betting odds from across the Atlantic > more closely match eventual election results than the annoying > calls from Gallup & Roper during suppertime. I have posted here, > anonymously, on this topic before, but some of you are aware of > who I am. I'll thank you to keep that a secret. ;} This is an interesting bet. Can anyone provide me with a list of candidates for the election? Many thanks, Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 From vipul at pobox.com Wed Aug 28 08:36:54 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:36:54 +0800 Subject: Spamming (fwd) Message-ID: <199608260000.AAA00199@fountainhead.net> Forwarded message: >From daemon Sun Aug 25 06:35:39 1996 Message-Id: <199605140403.EAA00545 at fountainhead.net> Subject: Re: Spamming To: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:03:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960822220224.006a0ff0 at labg30> from "John Deters" at Aug 22, 96 05:02:24 pm From: Vipul Ved Prakash Reply-To: vipul at pobox.com X-Organization: Positive Ideas Content-Type: text Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com Precedence: bulk X-Status: > > At 02:55 PM 8/22/96 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: > >> > >> At 06:09 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: > [deleted] > >> 1. Junkmail requires the SENDER to pay for it, not the recipient. > > Internet pricing models are complicated and debatable, but you surely > > end up paying for snail-junk-mail. Not directly, but hidden in the high > > first-class mail costs. More mail, more infrastructure, higher costs. > > This could be quite true for the net also, if we consider bandwidth costs > > money. > > I beg to differ. The USPS considers "junk" mail their bread-and-butter. > Huge mailings of all manner of bulk mail (especially those that are PostNet > barcoded by the sender) pay the bills around the Post Office. Your "more > mail, more infrastructure, higher costs" argument is flawed. The post > office has many fixed costs related to maintaining their huge presence, > delivering to so many rural addresses. If we had to pay a per-letter basis > *discounting* the value provided by the infrastructure already in place > supporting the bulk-mail handling systems, we'd be paying roughly Federal > Express 2-day letter rates for each piece of mail (around $6.00, if memory > serves correctly.) Alright, I agree. Though this could very easily differ with size and reach of a PS. But on the net it means more bandwidth right? Which means more bandwidth, and more money. Hang on. This might not be a problem in US (as jim bell points out there is tons of untapped bandwith), but it is in other not so well connected countries. For example, if somebody spams an Indian Network from india, the spam goes to US and comes back to india (since our govt sayz you cant connect 2 local networks!) and eats up most of the 20 MBps bandwidth. Gov't will buy more bandwidth and will make us pay for it! - Vipul From shabbir at vtw.org Wed Aug 28 08:37:58 1996 From: shabbir at vtw.org (Voters Telecommunications Watch) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:37:58 +0800 Subject: ALERT: Sen. Kerry, who voted FOR THE CDA, will be online tonight to chat! (8/28/96) Message-ID: <199608281215.IAA00261@panix3.panix.com> ============================================================================ __ _________ __ \ \ / /_ _\ \ / / HELP EDUCATE SENATOR KERRY ONLINE! \ \ / / | | \ \ /\ / / AT THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION ONLINE CHAT \ V / | | \ V V / ON AUGUST 28, 1996 -- 4PM CDT/5PM EST \_/ |_| \_/\_/ SENATOR KERRY, WHO VOTED FOR THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT, WILL BE ONLINE! PLEASE ATTEND AND EDUCATE HIM ABOUT SMART NET POLICY! DO NOT DISTRIBUTE AFTER SEPTEMBER 1, 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Table of contents What's New Why you should join these chats Chat schedule Getting chat software ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT'S NEW Senator John Kerry, who voted in favor of the Communications Decency Act and who has been dragging his feet on the encryption issue in the Senate Commerce Committee, is on the Democratic Convention Chat schedule for this Wednesday, 4pm CDT (5pm EST). Like many Senators, John Kerry's views are a combination of his personal opinions, plus his perception of his constituencies' opinion. When he voted IN FAVOR OF THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT, he was not listening to his constituency very well. The high tech community of Cambridge must make him understand that bad Internet policy, like the Communications Decency Act, can kill this industry, causing us to lose our jobs and the state to lose a valuable industry. Although Sen. Kerry shouldn't be let off the hook for voting of the CDA, he needs to be shown that in hindsight, this was a terrible vote. Hostility will not change his mind though, so please don't ask questions like, "Senator, what the heck were you thinking when you voted for this stupid bill which everyone knew was unconstitutional?" Questions like these will just cause him to wrap himself in a "protecting children" speech. Instead, why not try questions like, "Senator, don't you think that enough has changed in the past several months that would suggest that parents are really the best ones to control their kids access to the net? Would you still vote for the CDA today?" "Senator, don't you agree laws such as the CDA are really a poor second to a little bit of plain old parenting? If more parents were to learn about the net, would there still be a need for the CDA?" "Senator, I surf the net with my 10-year-old. I think that's a far better cry than the CDA. What could we do to encourage more parents to take this approach, rather than passing laws that harm Massachusetts businesses and freedom of speech?" Know that the urge to flame him for his vote on the CDA will be strong. It should be, it was a terrible position for someone from such an incredibly net-savvy state. No matter how you view politics, it was a poor move. It angers both the business and public. Please do not flame him, instead try to change his mind. It is imperative that the net community come out and show him this is a very serious issue for us, and that we won't forget his position on this. Remember, the chat is at 4pm CDT, which is 5PM EST. Please show up early, as this is likely to be a very full chat. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHY YOU SHOULD JOIN THESE CHATS The Democratic convention's online chat program has begun! It's crucial that Netizens make net concerns a high profile issue in the online chats this year. You can do this by showing up and simply asking the right questions. Does the candidate think the Communications Decency Act is an effective method of shielding kids from material online, or parental control? Does the candidate support the use of privacy-enhancing encryption technology? Does the candidate support program such as THOMAS, that put government info in the hands of the people? If you don't ask these questions, they'll never know we care. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHAT SCHEDULE [Notably missing from this schedule are Senators Patrick J. Leahy (D-VT) and Russell Feingold (D-WI) and House member Jerrold Nadler (D-NY). All three have impeccable cyberspace credentials and we look forward to seeing them online.] All chats take place at http://ichat.dncc96.org:4080/ Monday 08/26/96 - 4:20pm CDT Governor Lawton Chiles 08/26/96 - 7:15pm CDT House Candidate Michela Alioto 08/26/96 - 10:30pm CDT Congressman Bill Richardson Tuesday 08/27/96 - 9:00am CDT Senate Candidate Houston Gordon 08/27/96 - 5:00pm CDT Congresswoman Nita Lowey Wednesday 08/28/96 - 9:00am CDT - Senate Candidate Houston Gordon 08/28/96 - 10:00am CDT - Governor Gaston Caperton 08/28/96 - 3:00pm CDT - Senator John D Rockefeller IV ----> 08/28/96 - 4:00pm CDT - Senator John Kerry 08/28/96 - 4:30pm CDT - Senator Harry Reid 08/28/96 - 9:30pm CDT - Representative Corrine Brown Thursday 08/29/96 - 10:30am CDT - Senate Candidate Houston Gordon 08/29/96 - 2:30pm CDT - Senator Kent Conrad 08/29/96 - 3:30pm CDT - Representative Eliot Engel 08/29/96 - 6:00pm CDT - Representative Barney Frank 08/29/96 - 7:00pm CDT - Senators Boxer & Murray Don't miss this opportunity to question the newsmakers on net issues such as free speech and privacy! We have to ensure that they feel appreciated for standing up for Net issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- GETTING CHAT SOFTWARE The Democratic Convention has chosen iChat's chat software for their interface. To obtain a copy, simply follow the links from the main convention homepage at http://www.dncc96.org/ to the software section. ### ============================================================================ From campbell at c2.org Wed Aug 28 08:49:31 1996 From: campbell at c2.org (Rick Campbell) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:49:31 +0800 Subject: Microsoft Explorer security hole (fwd) MSoft's reply... In-Reply-To: <199608280257.TAA25752@scn.org> Message-ID: <9608281246.AA15630@cfdevx1.lehman.com> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:57:53 -0700 (PDT) From: SCN User BTW: When is this list/listserver going to convert the reply-to fields to point to cypherpunks at toad.com? Hopefully never. It's the wrong way for a distribution list to work. If you personally want replies to just go to the list, then you can add a reply-to field in your message. I prefer when people do a standard `reply all' to reply to me and CC the recipients of my message. In that way, I can file messages to a list in a folder while treating those that are explicitly specially -- I might want to see them sooner so as to reply sooner. The distribution list should just distribute messages. The sender should determine the addressing. Rick From merriman at amaonline.com Wed Aug 28 10:08:01 1996 From: merriman at amaonline.com (David K. Merriman) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:08:01 +0800 Subject: AFDA Web Site Message-ID: <199608281409.HAA19374@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 28 09:08:59 1996 > MEMORANDUM > > SUBJECT: AFDA Web site, located at: http://www.afda.org > > In September, the Web site for the Association of Federal Defense > Attorneys > (AFDA) will become password-protected for members only. Those of you > who > have paid your membership dues for 1996 will be receiving an email > message > containing a User ID and Password, which will be good through December > 31, > 1997 -- almost a year and a half of unlimited usage for the small > membership Okay, so are they going to encrypt the email, or should I go ahead and make arrangements to steal a message :-) Dave Merriman - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMiOcLsVrTvyYOzAZAQG4XAQAnNHZtuU5rB9cttuP4xIJ16N/XO3Ds6+L k4sS0w0I8+Rm+0Py9kYf3en3I9oPrP8fuQxXefBtlTO9FltWrApSR5otgO1LJtX6 EzYtDcXnXwD7nRZ74efLFktn5DXG4xODIFT0fRWbohZOkukh6ePheWWnOiPc+nFr e8hXmqO7KWk= =IfoC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From merriman at amaonline.com Wed Aug 28 10:11:58 1996 From: merriman at amaonline.com (David K. Merriman) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:11:58 +0800 Subject: Crypto-related (sort of) Dilbert Message-ID: <199608281418.HAA19532@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 28 09:17:30 1996 For those that haven't seen it - the Dilbert page has a kind-of crypto-related comic at http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/ Dave Merriman - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome, encouraged, and PREFERRED. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" I use Pronto Secure (tm) PGP-fluent Email software for Windows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMiOeL8VrTvyYOzAZAQEEIwQAms06+S3+2NGhh18vgC2sHQ7/tOsry5i1 BPAPVo2guBfHMNhtCaof0mie/wsv6mKoESz8HwtRdSZTOLUtGntsS4TQxfEgdkFA bDJxdC1bathMcgSw2He/pU+KldModPh3BGGzoQjAlkQPyE/15boDJUrZyW2rKphI wLWekKCd+1w= =J/2x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jseiger at cdt.org Wed Aug 28 10:58:34 1996 From: jseiger at cdt.org (Jonah Seiger) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:58:34 +0800 Subject: Scoring Politicians on Digital Liberty Issues (Re: Net Politics) Message-ID: At 9:38 PM 8/27/96, Timothy C. May wrote: >(I have no idea where the virtual nexus of this debate is taking place... [the 'virtual nexus' of this debate is actually on fight-censorship . Somehow it got cross posted to c'punks. Though I know it is annoying, I am cc'ing this to c'punks but I will keep all further replies to fight-censorship] >I think it laudable that CDT has chosen to remain in D.C. to "work within >the system." Personally, I could never stomach doing this. Thanks. Sometimes I need to throw back a few bottles of Pepto (or something a little harder), but working in DC is sometimes rewarding and always exciting. <...> >On the specific issue of whether Sen. Leahy is or is not a "friend of the >Net," to use him as an example here, I suggest a different approach. >Instead of classifying Leahy as a friend or an enemy, or Burns as a friend >or an enemy, etc., why not a *ratings system*? A very solid suggestion. I think this is a good idea for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that it would help define our issues for the Congress, the Administration, the press, and the rest of the country. Partly because it's true and partly because we are not as well organized as we could be, the perception of the net.community on Capitol Hill is of a less-than-unified body politic. This idea could help to change that attitude if it is done right. <...> >The issues for a scorecard might be accumulated on the Net, with inputs >from CDT, VTW, EFF, Cypherpunks, and other interested groups. It could be >messy, but perhaps not. Even a *simple* set of principles, picked by almost >any of these organizations, would likely be enough to get a reasonable >scoring system...it's not as if we all don't know that Leahy's support for >the Digital Telephony Bill was a major downcheck--whatever the realpolitik >issues were--and that his support of Pro-Code is a major upcheck. The value >of scoring is that it takes out the often-painful issues of classifying >politicians as "friends" or "enemies." I remember 2 years ago (I think?) VTW did something like this. As I recall, the only issue was Digital Telephony, and every member of Congress (save 2 or 3) got an F. IMHO, this was not as effective as it could have been, but it was a good start. Our issues are much more front-and-center than they were in 94, so this time around perhaps such and effort will have more impact. As far as I know, VTW is gearing up to do this again, though I haven't spoken to Shabbir about his plans. If he or anyone else is seriously considering doing this, I am certainly happy to contribute some time and a few ideas to the effort. Jonah ** THE FIGHT FOR FREE SPEECH ONLINE CONTINUES TO THE SUPREME COURT ** It's not too late to be a part of history -- Join the Lawsuit -- -- Jonah Seiger, Policy Analyst Center for Democracy and Technology 1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20006 PGP Key via finger (v) +1.202.637.9800 http://www.cdt.org/ (f) +1.202.637.0968 http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/ From hvdl at sequent.com Wed Aug 28 11:38:42 1996 From: hvdl at sequent.com (Hans Unicorn Van de Looy) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:38:42 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: <9608281505.AA10933@amsqnt.nl.sequent.com> The one-and-only anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com once stated: ! I snagged this off a news group this AM.. comments?? [ Part of previous message deleted ] ! It took the agency more to modify GNU C, but eventually they did it. ! The Free Software Foundation was threatened with "an IRS investigation", ! in other words, with being forced out of business, unless they complied. The ! result is that all versions of GCC on the FTP sites and all versions above ! 2.2.3, contain code to modify PGP and insert the trapdoor. Recompiling GCC ! with itself will not help; the code is inserted by the compiler into ! itself. Recompiling with another compiler may help, as long as the compiler ! is older than from 1992. I vote for Bogus, since it resembles too much a story from the ancient days of UNIX. This story stated that Ken Thompson modified the UNIX CC compiler to include a trapdoor in each version of (I think it was) the login program, thus ensuring the placement of a trapdoor enabling him to enter each and every system. After that (since all compiler passes are written in C) he modified the compiler to include this code (to modify the login program) into the compiler and compiled the compiler, after which he destroyed the original sources. Hope this story will not become the next "Good Time Virus" story or some similar hoax... -- GreetZ, Unicorn. ==== _ __,;;;/ TimeWaster on http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/hvdl ============ ,;( )_, )~\| Hans "Unicorn" Van de Looy PGP: ED FE 42 22 95 44 25 D8 ;; // `--; GSM: +31 653 261 368 BD F1 55 AA 04 12 44 54 '= ;\ = | ==== finger hvdl at sequent.com for more info =================== From ichudov at algebra.com Wed Aug 28 11:46:52 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:46:52 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608281505.KAA03928@manifold.algebra.com> Jason Burrell wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > > > > I may have to consider this approach. I'll have to look into Ian's system. > > > Does it pass muster with the crypto gods? (that's meant as a compliment > > > guys :) > > > > It uses IDEA in a decently secure manner, as well as TDES. You can also > > mount .au files as filesystems, and the data will be hidden in the sound > > file. > > > > (Last place I remember Ian's loop.c and des patches for Linux was on > > ftp.csua.berkeley.edu, /pub/cypherpunks/) > > > > ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux. Anyone had any luck with ftp.csua.berkeley.edu? My ftp client says that "client not responding to commands, hanging up". What is wrong? igor > I haven't looked through the code very hard yet, but I do wonder how the > passphrase and such is stored. If I run losetup and setup > /root/stego_file.au as a filesystem on /dev/loop0, does that get stored > anywhere that isn't secure from non-root processes, or that is kept after > the filesystem is unmounted? I figure the passphrase definately is removed > as soon as the filesystem is unmounted, and that this is stored in > protected kernel memory. > - Igor. From ericm at lne.com Wed Aug 28 11:53:42 1996 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:53:42 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: <199608281530.IAA20721@slack.lne.com> anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com writes: > > I snagged this off a news group this AM.. comments?? > > NSA/FBI/CIA/MJ12...Craig Steingold......Trilateral Commission.... > Bilderberg Committee Heh. They forgot the Black Heliocopters manned by agents of the UN/New World Order, and the Greys from Zeta Reticuli.. It's a hoax, with several clues that it is a hoax in it. Of course you're welcome to prove me wrong by disassembling a PGP binary. Examination of the random numnber generator, IDEA key setup, or RSA key setup vs what's in the source code should show if something fishy is going on. -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com ericm at motorcycle.com http://www.lne.com/ericm PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF From ericm at lne.com Wed Aug 28 12:11:27 1996 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:11:27 +0800 Subject: SCO giving free licenses to UNIX OpenServer In-Reply-To: <960828080524_511466918@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199608281537.IAA20774@slack.lne.com> Scottauge at aol.com writes: > > Hit www.sco.com > > Pick What's New > > Look for UNIX Unbound. > > Read, Understand, and Delight... Microsoft maybe in trouble at last. I doubt it. People don't use Microsoft products because of their quality or functionality. > This is for single user home based UNIX systems. Single-user UNIX isn't all that useful. Linux and FreeBSD are both free, and come with source code. You can get "commercial" versions of Linux for around $30 (that's on CDROM). You can get support for Linux, and probably for FreeBSD. -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com ericm at motorcycle.com http://www.lne.com/ericm PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF From dfloyd at io.com Wed Aug 28 12:35:46 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:35:46 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption In-Reply-To: <199608281505.KAA03928@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <199608281536.KAA07426@bermuda.io.com> > > Jason Burrell wrote: > > > > On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > > > > > > I may have to consider this approach. I'll have to look into Ian's system. > > > > Does it pass muster with the crypto gods? (that's meant as a compliment > > > > guys :) > > > > > > It uses IDEA in a decently secure manner, as well as TDES. You can also > > > mount .au files as filesystems, and the data will be hidden in the sound > > > file. > > > > > > (Last place I remember Ian's loop.c and des patches for Linux was on > > > ftp.csua.berkeley.edu, /pub/cypherpunks/) > > > > > > > ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux. > > Anyone had any luck with ftp.csua.berkeley.edu? My ftp client says > that "client not responding to commands, hanging up". > > What is wrong? > > igor Try a mirror. ftp.funet.fi, /pub/crypt/mirrors/soda/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux. From salgak at dcez.nicom.com Wed Aug 28 12:42:22 1996 From: salgak at dcez.nicom.com (Keith Glass) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:42:22 +0800 Subject: Scoring Politicians on Digital Liberty Issues (Re: Net Politics) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Jonah Seiger wrote: > >or an enemy, etc., why not a *ratings system*? > A very solid suggestion. > This idea could help to change that attitude if it is done right. Suggestions, based on the successful ratings concept I've seen in Virginia elections, and a mainstay of groups like the Borg, excuse me, the Christian Coalition Pick 10-20 issues/votes. Rate each congresscritter AND THEIR OPPONENTS based on "our" stand on the issues. Give a numerical score, based on percentage of "correct" positions. Obvious issues are: digital telephony the CDA Encryption/PRO-CODE copyright, etc. . . * Keith A. Glass, Annandale, Virginia, USA, Filker/punster at large * * "Specialization is for insects" - Lazarus Long * * Worlds saved, virgins converted, bongos taught - special group rates * From gary at systemics.com Wed Aug 28 12:45:51 1996 From: gary at systemics.com (Gary Howland) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:45:51 +0800 Subject: A _REALLY_ Interesting Bet In-Reply-To: <199608272002.OAA27298@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Message-ID: <32246E57.7D55368C@systemics.com> Anonymous wrote: > > Betting on football is one thing, but some of us would be very > interested in the odds on US presidential election outcomes as > November approaches. This kind of betting is illegal here, and > I haven't looked lately for a "Ladbroke's" type site, but it is > interesting because the betting odds from across the Atlantic > more closely match eventual election results than the annoying > calls from Gallup & Roper during suppertime. I have posted here, > anonymously, on this topic before, but some of you are aware of > who I am. I'll thank you to keep that a secret. ;} Thinking about this some more - what would people want to see in such a betting system. Would you be happy with two choices?: (Clinton/Dole) or Other or three choices?: Clinton, Dole or Other or would you want more choices than this? I'm asking, since we've been tossing around this presidential election idea for a few days now, but since we're not Americans, we're not too sure what is a suitable set (bearing in mind that our idea for this will get more difficult as the number of choices increases). Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Wed Aug 28 12:51:13 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:51:13 +0800 Subject: [Noise] Re: SCO giving free licenses to UNIX OpenServer Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960828163200.00707ea8@vertexgroup.com> Free evaluation is hardly a threat. "SCO today announced plans to provide a free license to use its popular UNIX systems, including SCO OpenServer and SCO UnixWare, to anyone in the world who wants to use them for educational and non-commercial use to enable the evaluation and understanding of UNIX systems." Hmmmmm. I don't even think that could qualify as a threat to Linux let alone Microsoft. The rest of "Unix Unbound" reads like an overpriced, underexperienced marketeer wetdream filled with empowering bold moves, 20 years of this and 60 billion of that. The comparison with AT&T's similar move 25 years ago is essential market-speak. Any student of posturing should study this. At 08:05 AM 8/28/96 -0400, you wrote: >Hit www.sco.com > >Pick What's New > >Look for UNIX Unbound. > >Read, Understand, and Delight... Microsoft maybe in trouble at last. > >This is for single user home based UNIX systems. > >Was announced August 19, don't know how long this is to happen. > From zachb at netcom.com Wed Aug 28 13:09:49 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:09:49 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: > I snagged this off a news group this AM.. comments?? > [snip] > > Since version 2.1, PGP ("Pretty Good Privacy") has been rigged to > allow the NSA to easily break encoded messages. Early in 1992, the author, > Paul Zimmerman, was arrested by Government agents. He was told that he The author of PGP is PHILLIP Zimmermannm not Paul. This file has been making the rounds for a few years now...it was first posted to one of the humor newsgroups, but pops up every now and then on one of the more serious places, like here. It's bogus. --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From Adamsc at io-online.com Wed Aug 28 13:22:09 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:22:09 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption Message-ID: <19960828165105171.AAA175@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 09:01:03 -0500 (CDT), Douglas R. Floyd wrote: >> I'm aware of the three main disk encryption programs SFS, SECDRV, and >> SECDEV, but I need to find a solution that works with Windows 95 32bit >> or Windows NT 4.0. >> >> I'm currently using SFS 1.17 and Secure Drive under Win-95, but am >> unable to continue to work in dos compatability mode due to severe >> performance hits. I am open to commercial products that have passed >> peer review, but know of none. >> >> If anyone could suggest a solution (outside of switching OS's), I >> would be *most* gratefull. >> >> Please respond to the list, as I am a subscriber under another >> account. > >If you have another 386 or 486 lying around, you could install Linux and >Ian's encrypted loopback code on a remote box, then NFS or Samba the >filesystem over. For protection, you could modify the vlock command to >lock the console (and not unlock it), and disable inetd. Then, unless Better yet, patch some stuff onto a spare power supply cable so that a small siren would go off on a reboot and then use those security bolts to hold the case on. That would probably discourage someone from rebooting off a floppy. >someone has the permissions to access the files through the network, the >files are inaccessable ;-). Neat idea, and a great use for all the linux security patches we've heard about. / If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. / Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp / Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" / Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 / Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From jeremey at veriweb.com Wed Aug 28 13:42:38 1996 From: jeremey at veriweb.com (Jeremey Barrett) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:42:38 +0800 Subject: SCO giving free licenses to UNIX OpenServer In-Reply-To: <960828080524_511466918@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > Hit www.sco.com > > Pick What's New > > Look for UNIX Unbound. > > Read, Understand, and Delight... Microsoft maybe in trouble at last. > Oh so carefully worded PR BS: "It also represents the first time in more than 20 years that the owner of UNIX technology has provided the operating system free of charge to the public" Note "owner of UNIX technology" They make it sound like noone without a multimillion dollar budget could ever get UNIX before. What a crock. It's good to see them making it free, but there are far better free system already IMO (Linux, FreeBSD, etc). =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Jeremey Barrett Senior Software Engineer jeremey at forequest.com The ForeQuest Company http://www.forequest.com/ PGP Key fingerprint = 3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80 DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64 PGP Public Key: http://www.forequest.com/people/jeremey/pgpkey.html "less is more." -- Mies van de Rohe. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMiR7gy/fy+vkqMxNAQFPegP/fDvA1APnMMDvOYh2aI/cXBQZQrkQMnT8 rAIB239qzZVbvFPY3iqNvHMlb3M3j+8BkDm+7QkYi5fepPwKgmMsslQy6HAzdAzX KKPX38zfrPnqmGsrESSJElyKFXrk76w0NGme0UDPAAvPv3uPFZCueZzY/siHiRLe 2d4IEJCIQ0Q= =yLBM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cmefford at avwashington.com Wed Aug 28 13:52:21 1996 From: cmefford at avwashington.com (Chip Mefford) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:52:21 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: >I snagged this off a news group this AM.. comments?? > >A lot of people think that PGP encryption is unbreakable and that the >NSA/FBI/CIA/MJ12 cannot read their mail. This is wrong, and it can be a >deadly mistake. In Idaho, a left-wing activist by the name of Craig Steingold >was arrested _one day_ before he and others where to stage a protest at >government buildings; the police had a copy of a message sent by Steingold >to another activist, a message which had been encrypted with PGP and sent >through E-mail. I suppose this part could be true. > > Since version 2.1, PGP ("Pretty Good Privacy") has been rigged to >allow the NSA to easily break encoded messages. Early in 1992, the author, >Paul Zimmerman, was arrested by Government agents. He was told that he >would be set up for trafficking narcotics unless he complied. The Government >agency's demands were simple: He was to put a virtually undetectable >trapdoor, designed by the NSA, into all future releases of PGP, and to >tell no-one. Phil Zimmerman has been shown to be a person of remarkable personal integrity and since he was up on and beat charges of illegally exporting munitions, I some how find a lame threat of a frame up for narcotic trafficking as making him cave to the "shadowy" government wishes a bit hard to swallow. > > snip< > Members of the boards of Novell, Microsoft, >Borland, AT&T and other companies were persuaded into giving the order for >the modification (each ot these companies' boards contains at least one >Trilateral Commission member or Bilderberg Committee attendant). Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot that the all powerful TC was behind it all, so of course its true. > > It took the agency more to modify GNU C, but eventually they did it. >The Free Software Foundation was threatened with "an IRS investigation", >in other words, with being forced out of business, unless they complied. The >result is that all versions of GCC on the FTP sites and all versions above >2.2.3, contain code to modify PGP and insert the trapdoor. Recompiling GCC >with itself will not help; the code is inserted by the compiler into >itself. Recompiling with another compiler may help, as long as the compiler >is older than from 1992. Somehow, I just don't see the FSF collaborating and caveing to threats. Also please note that all of this code under discussion has been and is constantly being reviewed by some of these here fine folks and thus far, ain't no one found this often rumored secret back door, but then again, I am quite sure the TC is behind the coverup. have a day in fact, they're cheap, have 2 chipper From hua at chromatic.com Wed Aug 28 13:52:52 1996 From: hua at chromatic.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:52:52 +0800 Subject: Other nations' bad laws and crypto/GAK ... Message-ID: <199608281734.KAA29678@ohio.chromatic.com> A legal concern about GAK ... What would be the basis for each and every request for GAK keys from other nations? What sort of process would decide which purposes are okay for which to grant access to GAK keys? What if it is to enforce this new Malaysian law against Karaoke (say, because someone was importing karaoke equipment to Malaysia)? It seems like we should not be supporting other nations' repressive laws. Is each and every GAK key to be granted to be carefully reviewed for concerns on national security/foreign policy/repressive law/stupid law? If so, then it seems like a huge government beaurocracy will have to be created just to handle proper review of GAK requests. Ern -------- From Nando Times ... CONCERNED MALAYSIAN STATE RULES AGAINST KARAOKE Copyright � 1996 Nando.net Copyright � 1996 Reuter Information Service KUALA LUMPUR (Aug 28, 1996 10:35 a.m. EDT) - Citing concerns about moral decay, the central Malaysian state of Selangor will close all illegal video games outlets and karaoke lounges from September 1, the national Bernama news agency reported on Wednesday. Licensed video games arcades will also be closed on expiry of their licences while the licensing conditions for karaoke lounges have been tightened, Bernama quoted Selangor's Chief Minister Muhammad Muhamad Taib as saying. As in many Asian countries, karaoke has become a popular recreation, resulting the mushrooming of lounges in many of Malaysia's cities. Officially Moslem Malaysia is vigilant for any erosion of moral standards among its youth. ... [ SNIP ] ... From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 28 14:12:23 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 05:12:23 +0800 Subject: Key Exchange Request In-Reply-To: <199608280446.AAA01992@spirit.hks.net> Message-ID: This really does not belong on the list. We have enough bandwidth problems without unsolicited key blocks being forwarded to the list. On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Michael T. Babcock wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Type Bits/KeyID Date User ID > pub 1280/FA4C5DB1 1996/06/13 Michael T. Babcock > Michael T. Babcock [...] > - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 2.6.3i > Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ > > mQCtAzHAhC8AAAEFAMG+C+yN8q7KDT5TUSdyQNZlDDlTGuF4vUzPEq52lrqx7NAA [...] > qd98jWjPf38BgLOldtanlYiYfSBcVIdO > =N34I > - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.2 > Comment: Gratis auto-signing service [...] > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From skeeve at skeeve.net Wed Aug 28 14:12:26 1996 From: skeeve at skeeve.net (Skeeve Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 05:12:26 +0800 Subject: DoJ is poking around Message-ID: <199608281742.DAA30588@heaven.myinternet.net> Im running a mirror of the DoJ site on http://www.skeeve.net/doj/ It has had some 14000 hits or so since I put it up.. so I installed a stats package to see where they were coming from... low and behold! US Government wdcsun1.usdoj.gov 09:07:07 /doj/ wdcsun1.usdoj.gov unknown - [28/Aug/1996:09:07:07 +1000] "GET /doj/ HTTP/1.0" 20 0 8416 also US Military palisade.spacecom.af.mil 07:21:50 /doj/ 08:30:51 /doj/ looks like the DoJ have been looking around at the mirrors.. maybe to legally hassle people about them.... Well since Im not in the US.. good luck DoJ anyone else been probed by the Doj? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Skeeve Stevens Email: skeeve at skeeve.net CEO/The Big Boss/All round nice guy URL: http://www.skeeve.net/ MyInternet Australian Anglicans Online http://www.myinternet.net/ http://www.anglican.asn.au/ Phone: (+612) 869-3334 Mobile: (0414) SKEEVE [+61414-753-383] Key fingerprint = D2 7E 91 53 19 FE D0 5C DE 34 EA AF 7A 5C 4D 3E From dfloyd at io.com Wed Aug 28 14:17:58 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 05:17:58 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: <199608281655.LAA10957@bermuda.io.com> [deletia -- PGP being Trojanized since 2.2] >From what I heard, it was bad key distrubtion and infiltration which did the person in, rather than pgp being broken. If PGP was broken, it would be definitely found by now. From alano at teleport.com Wed Aug 28 14:25:13 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 05:25:13 +0800 Subject: Bullshit or Not ? Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960828102326.00a7a45c@mail.teleport.com> At 04:57 AM 8/28/96 -0700, anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com wrote: >I snagged this off a news group this AM.. comments?? > >A lot of people think that PGP encryption is unbreakable and that the >NSA/FBI/CIA/MJ12 cannot read their mail. This is wrong, and it can be a >deadly mistake. In Idaho, a left-wing activist by the name of Craig Steingold >was arrested _one day_ before he and others where to stage a protest at >government buildings; the police had a copy of a message sent by Steingold >to another activist, a message which had been encrypted with PGP and sent >through E-mail. This is quite bogus. The first clue is the mention of "Craig Stiengold". A variation of "Craig Shergold" a widely known (and misspelled) urban legend. This has been debunked a number of times. --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From dfloyd at io.com Wed Aug 28 15:33:51 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 06:33:51 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption In-Reply-To: <19960828165105171.AAA175@IO-ONLINE.COM> Message-ID: <199608281823.NAA14144@bermuda.io.com> > > On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 09:01:03 -0500 (CDT), Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > > Better yet, patch some stuff onto a spare power supply cable so that a small > siren would go off on a reboot and then use those security bolts to hold the > case on. That would probably discourage someone from rebooting off a floppy. I just unplugged the floppy drive power cable, and disabled it in the BIOS. Even if they reboot the box, the drive will be inaccessable... all they will have is a file called bigrandseed which holds the data in it. As for case protection, the best thing to do is have a tamper switch which shuts the box off if opened. > > >someone has the permissions to access the files through the network, the > >files are inaccessable ;-). > > Neat idea, and a great use for all the linux security patches we've heard > about. One thing I think I can use this for is making a "lock box" for holding a PGP key for signing/decrypting stuff. Attach a keyboard, and on boot, have the PGP key decrypted into a RAM drive. Then, have a key switch on the case and a wrapper on PGP to detect this. E-mail what you want signed, turn the key, and it emails the signed/decoded file back. Someone opens the machine, tamper switch turns the box off. Box off? Key is now left in encrypted state, most likely hidden in one of the many sound files... Sounds like a nice saturday afternoon project. OBSecurityAlert: Have people updated their Sendmail yet? Another security alert went out on it yesterday... From vipul at pobox.com Wed Aug 28 17:05:52 1996 From: vipul at pobox.com (Vipul Ved Prakash) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:05:52 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks Home Page Message-ID: <199608260735.HAA19388@fountainhead.net> Can't get to the cypherpunks web page. Have been trying for last two daz, seems that the WWW server has decided not to respond. - Vipul -- Vipul Ved Prakash Voice 91 11 2247802 Fax 91 11 3328849 Web Development, PERL Scripting, Cognitive Comuting, TCP/IP, Linux, Cryptography and Internet Security From Adamsc at io-online.com Wed Aug 28 17:19:19 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:19:19 +0800 Subject: SCO giving free licenses to UNIX OpenServer Message-ID: <19960828203549890.AAA88@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:37:26 -0700 (PDT), Eric Murray wrote: >> Hit www.sco.com >> Pick What's New >> >> Look for UNIX Unbound. >> >> Read, Understand, and Delight... Microsoft maybe in trouble at last. >I doubt it. People don't use Microsoft products because >of their quality or functionality. OTOH, it might get people to play around with another alternative to NT. >> This is for single user home based UNIX systems. >Single-user UNIX isn't all that useful. >Linux and FreeBSD are both free, and come with source code. >You can get "commercial" versions of Linux for around $30 >(that's on CDROM). You can get support for Linux, and probably >for FreeBSD. True. However, if you have odd-ball hardware (like my RAID controller) it *will* come with an SCO driver. I'd have to write my own to use it under Linux. / If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. / Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp / Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" / Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 / Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From jya at pipeline.com Wed Aug 28 17:25:55 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:25:55 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? Message-ID: <199608281949.TAA19170@pipe2.t2.usa.pipeline.com> As a vulture investor in pgp.com I heartily endorse Paul's aggressive cooperation with the Feds. Would not have trusted him with my tax-haven wealth had he not had the balls to fight the gov to build his rep and then wisely get in bed for the loving. That's how we gonna leverage PGP's worldwide trust to make lotsa dough like all the patriotic giants of computer boom-boom-boom -- fake-fight the gov and betray, betray, betray the stupes. Don't waste your life being a principled, poor outsider. Dive deep into the shit with the titanic buzzards of the industry. It'll make your drooling alma mater and yo sweet juicy momma call you a genius. From isi at hooked.net Wed Aug 28 17:31:06 1996 From: isi at hooked.net (Barry C. Collin) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:31:06 +0800 Subject: In reference to comments made to me and to the Group Message-ID: <3224A412.D05@hooked.net> This message was in response to comments made by E. Allen Smith on my recent remarks on cyberterrorism. Dear Mr. Smith: Thank you for your perspectives. Save for the irrelevant flaming, I appreciated your taking time. Following are my comments. >>Terrorism to CyberTerrorism > >> The face of terrorism is changing. While the motivations remain the >> same, we are now facing new and unfamiliar weapons. The intelligence >> systems, tactics, security procedures and equipment that were once >> expected to protect people, systems, and nations, are powerless >> against this new, and very devastating weapon. Moreover, the methods >> of counter-terrorism that our world's specialists have honed over the >> years are ineffectual against this enemy. Because, this enemy does not >> attack us with truckloads of explosives, nor with briefcases of Sarin >> gas, nor with dynamite strapped to the bodies of fanatics. This enemy >> attacks us with one's and zero's, at a place we are most vulnerable: >> the point at which the _physical _and _virtual _worlds converge. Let >> us first define theses two domains. > > Ever since the dawn of technological civilization, we've been vulnerable >to terrorism inflicted by those with technological knowledge and intelligence. >Ever since someone discovered how to produce poisonous gases, we've been >vulnerable to attacks such as those in the Japanese subways. Ever since the >electrification of countries, we've been vulnerable to attacks on power >production and distribution systems. Ever since most vehicles became >petroleum-powered, we've been vulnerable to attacks on petroleum production and >distribution systems. Ever since we found out how to cultivate anthrax, we've >been vulnerable to any competent bacteriologist. These are all different tools. Some are simple to create and deploy, some are not. While the definition of classical terrorism (and its motivations) remain the same, we must study each of these tools separately if we are to understand how to detect, prevent, and respond to the threats. > All the above is is Information Super-Highway hype. Thank you for your opinion. >[...] > >>Achieving CyberTerrorist Goals > >> So how does a CyberTerrorist achieve his mission? Like any terrorist, >> a CyberTerrorist actively exploits the goals of the target population >> in areas in which they take for granted. > >> There are three potential acts in CyberTerrorism at the point of >> convergence: >> * 1.Destruction; >> * 2.Alteration; and >> * 3.Acquisition and retransmission (these are a unit). > > I would point out that many instances of the last (I would guess you refer to >the getting and distribution of, say, ITAR-restricted information - you do >accuse crackers of complicity in "CyberTerrorism" by breaking military >security) are not, properly speaking, terrorism; they are instead the >distribution of information that should not be restricted. You guessed incorrectly; I'm not talking ITAR. Test yourself: Can you think of any sensitive or personal information, that if exposed or utilized, could cause terror -- or destabilization? If you can't, you are not trying; you should know more than most the value of privacy, whether it be military, corporate, or personal. >One person's >terrorist is another person's freedom fighter (I'd call both sides in >Nicaragua's Sandanista-Contra conflict terrorists). This nifty statement frequently comes from people who've never seen a child blown up, seen people disfigured, seen property damaged beyond all recognition. Perhaps it is a safe place in your office, Mr. Smith, behind your terminal judging other's thoughts. I don't have that luxury. I've spent more than anyone's fair share of time going through rubble, identifying pieces of what were once people, and telling their families. Freedom fighters who kill random and innocent victims are terrorists and cowards. If you feel otherwise, Mr. Smith, perhaps it is time to step out into harm's way, and then perhaps you too will waken in the night with the images that haunt me. *Then* you can talk to me about such matters. Until then, stick to coding. > >[...] > >>Potential CyberTerrorist Acts > >[...] > >> * A CyberTerrorist will attack the next generation of air traffic >> control systems, and collide two large civilian aircraft. This is >> a realistic scenario, since the CyberTerrorist will also crack the >> aircraft's in-cockpit sensors. Much of the same can be done to the >> rail lines. > > Only a bloody utter idiot would build such systems without enough >backups to avoid these problems; they could come about through computer bugs >or component failures as well. Networked systems are notorious for going down >(see the recent happenings with AOL, for instance); they're _going_ to have >backups if anyone intelligent is running them. Of course, you may have a point >with a government-controlled air traffic controller systems. > The same can be said of most of your other scenarios. These require more than once person be involved. Do not kid yourself, we are not dealing with stupid people here. And bloody utter idiots we have a-plenty -- too many administrators more concerned with their balance sheets to provide the tools people like you need to build safe systems. You'd be surprised of the amount of criminally-inadequate systems out there. That's why it _is_ important that folks like you push the envelope to better the systems. The goal here, Mr. Smith, is to put me out of business, not by flames, but by helping to build better systems. I think we share that goal. > >>CyberTerrorists: Who, Where, and Why? > >> The purpose of this paper is to help you understand the threats that >> exist, and hopefully, to help you prevent these types of atrocities. >> But know this - there are people out there with very different goals, >> who are our real threats, and who are, or will be, attacking us. Make >> no mistake, _the threats are real, today___.__ > > Most people with technical knowledge have a pretty large motivation to >keep the technical society going. One, the loss of it would make our knowledge >useless. Two, we have enough contact with technology and science to want it to >continue - how many neo-Luddite engineers do you know? The Unabomber is the >main exception... and even he didn't use his main area of knowledge in his >bombings. We are not concerned with engineers. We are concerned with fanatics, and fanatics are fanatics whether they are engineers or gardeners. Do not be so naive to believe that everyone shares the morals you have. Mr. Smith, there are people out there who want you dead, and will use all the techniques you pointed out above to accomplish their goal. As I said before, technology is just another tool. >> Who are the CyberTerrorists? There a great many poor movies and too >> many works of fiction about the hacker and cracker communities. In the >> popular media, there recently was the Kevin Mitnick incident, where >> one cracker broke into another cracker's systems. This spawned endless >> press and at least two best selling books. While this incident >> received much attention, the events amounted to meaningless children's >> games. > > I'd agree with that, from what I know of the Mitnick incident(s). I'm >not sure if Shinomura (sp?) should be called a cracker; others with more >knowledge can comment on this. Agreed. >> By and large, the cracker community, based primarily in the United >> States, Europe, the Middle East, Asia, and in the nations of the >> former Soviet Union, is composed of individuals who see the cracking >> process merely as a challenge, a brain teaser, a puzzle. They view >> themselves as not only being innocent of any crime, but perhaps even >> doing something righteous, something to counter the dark monoliths of >> the corporate and government worlds. They believe they are being >> persecuted. These individuals believe that what they are doing is not >> doing any true damage. At its least harmful, these crackers just look >> at information. However, privacy issues and military secrecy can >> render such infiltrations acts of terror. > > Often, military secrecy is just an excuse to not allow information >damaging to governments, etcetera from getting out. With NSC involvement, how >deeply do you think the Iran-Contra dealings were classified? I would, however, >agree with you about privacy issues... but governments are far greater threats >in this regard than all the crackers in the world. Much of the information in >question would not be around in so many places (such as notoriously accessible >government databanks) except for governments gathering information they >shouldn't have in the first place. Whether you are right or wrong about what governments have locked away is not in my work area. As I've said, my work is in fanatics, the disenfranchised, etc. People are people, and some turn rogue. It happens. And people are purchased. My work keeps me entrenched in such mire regularly. > >[...] > >>Crackers as Facilitators > >[...] > >> Historically, individuals engaged in the practice of terror tended not >> to be people working upon a computer 20 hours per day. Terrorists have >> not been in the business of tracking the latest holes found in UNIX or >> an obscure government telnet opportunity. There _are _people, however, >> who are in that business - for illicit as well as good cause. As >> stated, just as indigenous people may be turned into soldiers, so can >> crackers be turned into CyberTerrorists. Sometimes such a transition >> may be motivated by money or prestige. Usually, this transition will >> occur without the cracker's cognizance. The potential threat from such >> transitions is mind boggling, considering the damage even one >> mis-directed cracker can cause. > > The first statement is correct... and is likely to continue to be the >case. We would appreciate some evidence for such transitions occurring without >cognizance, or indeed being at all likelyLet me know what you do for a living, and then we can share more. Not trying to be "spooky", but understand that my piece of the world rests in the violent world, and I need to watch my own back. > >> Further, as young, educated people are brought into the folds of >> terrorist groups, this new generation will have the talent to execute >> the acts of CyberTerrorism of which we have spoken. > > Unlikely. For state-sponsored terrorism, for instance, countries with >the motivation for such are also ones that tend to block people from computer >experience. Getting on the Internet is rather likely to expose the people in >such countries to information that will destabilize them... including programs >such as PGP that are restricted by ITAR in the name of (among other things) >decreasing terrorism. You might be interested in the number of "students" attending our universities that have solid terrorism backgrounds. The ones I spoke to made their purpose very clear. > >> We are going to see increasing levels of in-house expertise, and >> concomitant exponential increases CyberTerrorism. Unlike other methods >> of terrorism, CyberTerrorism is safe and profitable, and difficult to >> counter without the right expertise and understanding of the >> CyberTerrorist's mind. Combine our increasing vulnerability, with the >> explosive increases in the level of violence, and increasing expertise >> available inside terrorist organizations through new blood popular >> media, there recently was the Kevin Mitnick incident, where one >> cracker broke into another cracker's systems. This spawned endless >> press and at least two best selling books. While this incident >> received much attention, the events amounted to meaningless children's >> games. > > You appear not to be making much sense here, but I'll put it down to >misformatting. Yes, there is a block of text missing. If you have any interest, I can resend. Exactly how is CyberTerrorism profitable? Certainly, it's >_possible_ for people to be _hired_ to do things that may enable some form of >terrorism... but that doesn't make the _terrorism_ any more profitable than >before.It's more profitable since the cost of entry, and continued operations, are less. In addition, access to financial resources (computer crime) is readily available. And you don't lose someone after they've been blown up. > >[...] > >> If a computer security advisor states that you, your organization, and >> your country are safe behind firewalls, behind a system put into place >> by people who have never fought cyberbattles, behind audit trails, >> passwords, and encryption, then a great and dangerous fallacy (or >> fantasy) is being perpetrated upon you. The only solution is the quick >> deployment of a counter-CyberTerrorist - someone who knows what you >> are up against today, someone who lives in the world of the people who >> are, and will be, attacking - someone who can train the people who >> must fight the battles. > > Passwords and encryption can do a very good job of stopping crackers, >thank you - that's one major concern for which they're developed.It's all in the implementation, Mr. Smith. You know that. >Economic and >other espionage are very much already on the minds of those suggesting using >firewalls, passwords, and encryption; they're a lot more experienced, when >the computer community's expertise is summed up, than you are.Again, just because the tools for protection are there, doesn't mean they are properly implemented. You could not possibly be telling me that everything is locked down safely at this point. Bottom line, if you can make it, someone can break it. Always has been, always will be. > In other words, the above just translates into "give us money." Have some idea of what you speak before you speak, Mr. Smith. We do not accept funding from the private or public sector. We are all volunteers who research high-intensity crime and low-intensity conflict. When I am not volunteering, my job is to make sure you can safely send out your emails without getting blown away or blown up. > >>Ex Post Facto > >> An effective auditing system will only inform the target manager that >> they have taken a hit; perhaps a fatal hit. By that point, it is too >> late. _Now _is the time to take action. Unfortunately, due to this >> open nature of this document, specific counter-CyberTerrorism measures >> cannot be discussed. Those discussions must be reserved for secured >> facilities. > > Nobody disagrees with that auditing isn't the _only_ method needed; >_everyone_ uses other methods.Watch your generalizations. You'd better tune in to how bad things really are. Remember that old saying about prevention and >cure? > Your claim that you can't discuss security in the open is laughable. >Quite simply, security by obscurity doesn't work; in cryptography, it's one of >the signs of "silicon snake-oil" - which is what this document looks like in >any event. First, making a system obscure motivates a lot of people to try to >find out how it works; intelligent people are curious, and don't like >unnecessary secrets unless they're authoritarians. Second, the less people >know about a system, the less people can spot bugs to be _fixed_ in that >system. I prefer a system that has been tested by as many people as possible, >thank you, particularly if my life may depend on it.Again, I'm not worried about you at your keyboard clicking away and offering opinions. There's more to this than encryption. Take off the blinders, Mr. Smith: encyrption is just one little piece of this puzzle. It comes down to psychology, far more than technology. I appreciate your curiousity, your wish for totally open systems. In a perfect world, or even a sane world, that would be ideal. I would love society to be filled with people like you who believe in improving the state of the art, the pushing of the envelope, etc. But you are not who I deal with every day. Unfortunately, just because you don't see these folks, doesn't mean they are not there. They are not the ones with cutesy handles and who send messages to usenets and such. It's the people off the radar screen, the one's that know better than to go public. I've spent way too much time with these nutcases, and I assure you, Mr. Smith, they are very real. > In other words, go back to the drawing board and find something else to >try to sound a tocsin over. > -AllenOpen up your world, Mr. Smith. There is a whole parallel universe of garbage that exists with yours. Whether or not you believe or understand that is frankly irrelevant to me or my work. But hopefully this will open your eyes to the fact that this is not about evil governments, nor military spookery, nor commercialization, nor fear of crackers. The next time I have to travel to a bomb site, and as I try and figure out what cause could justify the death of someone who just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, I will not be thinking of you in your office lecturing me on the computer world. Barry C. Collin -- Institute for Security and Intelligence A Non-Profit Research Institution P.O. Box 9877 Stanford, California 94309-9877 USA From rodger at interramp.com Wed Aug 28 17:32:21 1996 From: rodger at interramp.com (Will Rodger) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:32:21 +0800 Subject: DoJ is poking around Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960828192508.0067abc4@pop3.interramp.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 03:42 AM 8/29/96 +1000, Skeeve Stevens wrote: > >Im running a mirror of the DoJ site on http://www.skeeve.net/doj/ > >It has had some 14000 hits or so since I put it up.. so I installed a stats >package to see where they were coming from... > >low and behold! > >US Government >wdcsun1.usdoj.gov > 09:07:07 /doj/ > >wdcsun1.usdoj.gov unknown - [28/Aug/1996:09:07:07 +1000] "GET /doj/ HTTP/1.0" 20 >0 8416 > >also > >US Military >palisade.spacecom.af.mil > 07:21:50 /doj/ > 08:30:51 /doj/ > > >looks like the DoJ have been looking around at the mirrors.. maybe to >legally hassle people about them.... > Or, just maybe, some DoJ employees wanted to see what folks on the outside were doing to tweek their bosses:-)? Reminds me of the *thousands* of hits the "Intel Secrets Page"(http://www.x86.org/) has gotten from users at intel.com since it went up. True, Intel was considering legal action against the site, but there's almost no way all those hits are from Mr. Grove's investigators.... Will Rodger -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMiTHI0cByjT5n+LZAQFObAf9G1fBFETkuWL5mlTmKb2RwLTs/HyTGML7 c8nSdpS+Hsj/I+ofvqUHn07ahulsr+kDLWQmmR3JHFKlT0KCsfydmAn0CvjTVRw+ dyeRTFzxW5fbcmwLBpzmijKllQjoEa7GiM3kUgaGb7MYqssnDoa5YDIA9jYtFvTY 3cKymCiyqNUGWTsskLLAS8zjClIH9q9yF6qq+unY66PyRo44dUGkDH6L1Jd4AOZ6 b/Mgphj3oW59veX/scfxKcLlMAnxvJoLpdlLysJHeU2jhVB/tjRneAxNxZqCTFi8 uVXpPbL568V1xR9uyxmaZbbQqG7+0PgEj+kW5r99zvTZfd0fMd6irA== =EwSd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From OSBORRI at msmail.northgrum.com Wed Aug 28 17:32:44 1996 From: OSBORRI at msmail.northgrum.com (Osborne, Rick) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:32:44 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? Message-ID: <3224A9B8@smtpmmp2.northgrum.com> I think we all know this is fake. I saw the original web page out there (search lycos for "pgp crack" to find it) and it originally had an extra line at the end (tactfully ommitted, I see) which said something to the effect of "In case you couldn't tell, this is a joke!" -oz ---------- Subject: Real or Not ? Date: Wednesday, August 28, 1996 7:57AM I snagged this off a news group this AM.. comments?? A lot of people think that PGP encryption is unbreakable and that the [...] From rah at shipwright.com Wed Aug 28 17:39:28 1996 From: rah at shipwright.com (Robert Hettinga) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:39:28 +0800 Subject: Reg E changes Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:21:09 -0700 To: rah at shipwright.com From: Somebody Subject: Reg E changes Bob, If you have not already done so, please submit a public comment re: the proposed Reg E changes [Docket No. R-0919]. The deadline is September 7th. You may want to announce this to other fans of bearer certs. Thanks to my friends at the Fed, I am in possession of comments already submitted. The opposition is trying to get the Fed to not make the proposed account/non-account based distinction when deciding what is covered under Reg E, but instead use a $ cap. The logic is that there is an account anyway, be it on the card (such as the record of the total on a prepaid card that is used for paying subway fares) or be it at the bank. We need to make sure that the supporters of non-book entry systems make their voices heard. When writing the comment, please include a request to do away with the hard copy signature requirements for opening accounts. If the Fed gets enough requests, they will include it in the next round of proposals. -- Somebody --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah at shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/ From wclerke at emirates.net.ae Wed Aug 28 17:45:17 1996 From: wclerke at emirates.net.ae (Wayne Clerke) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:45:17 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption Message-ID: <01BB9543.4F6CD2E0@csa088.emirates.net.ae> The Drifter[SMTP:drifter at c2.net] wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:55:20 +0400, Wayne Clerke wrote: >Tried secdev? Edgar Swank (author of secdrv) recently posted >that secdev (note, not secdrv) does, in fact, uses 32 bit disk >access with win95. Win95 reports that the secure device is in >compatibility mode, but the host disk (and therefore the secure >volume file) is being accessed in 32 bit (disk) mode. Not sure >what issues there are with '32 bit FILE access' mode here. > >Sounds worth a try though. Please post the results if >you try this. > I have actually had Secure File System, Secure Drive, and Secure Device all installed with mounted volumes at the same time under Win95. However, 32bit file access is not the problem. When you load a TSR in Win95, the operating system forces you into 16bit DOS compatability mode. I'm not a kernal guru so I can't explain all the specifics, but it basically makes 95 act as Win-3.11 and looses multithreading (as it were) and creates serious memory paging problems if you have >32mb installed. You've got this all wrong. Only certain types of TSRs cause this. I'll leave it to an expert and just quote the author of secdrv: Edgar Swank wrote: >For those users of Win95 and SecureDrive who are concerned about loss >of 32-bit disk access, I've recently learned that use of Secure Device > > ftp.demon.co.uk:/pub/ibmpc/secdev/secdev14.arj > >instead avoids this requirement. Although the Secure Device virtual >drive is listed as in compatibility mode, the real drives are not so >affected. And since the virtual drive is mapped to a dos file on one >of the real drives, I believe you get 32-bit phyical drive access >there as well, although access is still slowed by CPU time necessary >to encrypt and decrypt. Thanks for the reply though .. and if you need assitance with getting SECDEV working under 95, just drop me a note. Thanks for the offer ... Drifter Regards, EMail: wclerke at emirates.net.ae PGP key ID: AEB2546D FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702 PGP mail welcome. Voice: +971 506 43 48 53 Wayne Clerke If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space. From jims at MPGN.COM Wed Aug 28 18:08:45 1996 From: jims at MPGN.COM (James C. Sewell) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:08:45 +0800 Subject: libelous action Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960828165224.006a27ec@central.tansoft.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1341 bytes Desc: not available URL: From youssefy at ucla.edu Wed Aug 28 18:25:28 1996 From: youssefy at ucla.edu (youssefy at ucla.edu) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:25:28 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks Lite Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960828225105.006ccc74@pop.ben2.ucla.edu> There was a posting by someone about three weeks ago that gave the address for a person who ran a filtered version of the cypherpunks list, can someone please repost that information? From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 28 18:28:44 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:28:44 +0800 Subject: Today's Dilbert Message-ID: <199608282111.RAA17084@cbig1.att.att.com> At 12:12 AM 8/22/96 -0400, you wrote: >I can't believe nobody mentioned wednesday's dilbert cartoon.. Because we missed it in the papers and were waiting for it to show up on the web site? http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert960821-9577.gif # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From charley at clark.net Wed Aug 28 18:29:06 1996 From: charley at clark.net (Charley Sparks) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:29:06 +0800 Subject: SCO giving free licenses to UNIX OpenServer Message-ID: <199608282125.RAA16547@clark.net> When SCO is as good as Linux with all the free support I'll waste the bandwidth or the $15 for the CD From rich at c2.org Wed Aug 28 18:53:48 1996 From: rich at c2.org (Rich Graves) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:53:48 +0800 Subject: Scoring Politicians on Digital Liberty Issues (Re: Net Politics) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Keith Glass wrote: > Pick 10-20 issues/votes. Rate each congresscritter AND THEIR OPPONENTS > based on "our" stand on the issues. Give a numerical score, based on > percentage of "correct" positions. I don't think an overall numerical score would be very useful, given the inevitable squabbling over how to weight different questions. Leahy voted for DT and against CDA; Burns voted for CDA and against DT. Who is worse? NOTE: The above is intended as a rhetorical question! -rich From hag at ai.mit.edu Wed Aug 28 18:55:23 1996 From: hag at ai.mit.edu (Daniel Hagerty) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:55:23 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: <199608282125.RAA26272@galapas.ai.mit.edu> > > It took the agency more to modify GNU C, but eventually they did it. > >The Free Software Foundation was threatened with "an IRS investigation", > >in other words, with being forced out of business, unless they complied. The > >result is that all versions of GCC on the FTP sites and all versions above > >2.2.3, contain code to modify PGP and insert the trapdoor. Recompiling GCC > >with itself will not help; the code is inserted by the compiler into > >itself. Recompiling with another compiler may help, as long as the compiler > >is older than from 1992. Umm, no. I work for the Foundation in my copious free time. This has never happened. And I just asked Richard about it to be sure. He was amused. It would be *very* difficult to pass this by anyone. People at FSF diff the source code a lot, and we're far from the only ones. From moroni at scranton.com Wed Aug 28 19:21:38 1996 From: moroni at scranton.com (Moroni) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:21:38 +0800 Subject: stego virus Message-ID: If a virus is embedded into a giff ,is it executed when the giff is or does it require the usual overwriting etc methods to execute it? TIA From llurch at networking.stanford.edu Wed Aug 28 19:39:02 1996 From: llurch at networking.stanford.edu (Richard Charles Graves) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:39:02 +0800 Subject: There is no Agent Toby Tyler at the FBI [UK Observer Story] Message-ID: <199608282217.PAA08317@Networking.Stanford.EDU> ...two different sources, both of whom are anonymous because they work for competing newspapers, tell me. Could someone else with contacts/time to kill/attributability please confirm this? Kinda puts a dent in the whole story, don't you think. -rich From cminter at mipos2.intel.com Wed Aug 28 19:55:27 1996 From: cminter at mipos2.intel.com (Corey Minter) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:55:27 +0800 Subject: DoJ is poking around Message-ID: <199608290016.RAA26240@zws379.sc.intel.com> Forwarded message: > >looks like the DoJ have been looking around at the mirrors.. maybe to > >legally hassle people about them.... > > Or, just maybe, some DoJ employees wanted to see what folks on the outside > were doing to tweek their bosses:-)? Reminds me of the *thousands* of hits > the "Intel Secrets Page"(http://www.x86.org/) has gotten from users at > intel.com exactly. watch out, some DoJ revisionist might get into your mirror site and get you back for trying to keep a history of the incident :). well... maybe not. -- ______________________________________________________________________ Corey Minter | cminter at mipos2.intel.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I wish I had a dollar for every time I spent a dollar, because then, Yahoo!, I'd have all my money back. --Jack Handy From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 28 20:33:22 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:33:22 +0800 Subject: Mimic Function Stego Programs? Message-ID: <199608282111.RAA17052@cbig1.att.att.com> Does anybody have a stego program along the lines of Peter Wayner's Mimic Functions? I'm looking for something that you can hand a grammar and a set of bits that will produce sentences in the grammar, plus a decoder that can take the sentences and reconstruct the bits. I have a friend who lives in a kleptocratic country where the local bureaucrats have made it clear they'll confiscate the main email node in his town if they catch traffic they recognize as encrypted, and text in some non-popular language may be less obvious than, say, Mandelbrot sets with stego-bits or other artwork. ----- PHB would work ok... http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert960821-9577.gif ----- # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From Adamsc at io-online.com Wed Aug 28 20:33:41 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:33:41 +0800 Subject: Edited Edupage, 18 Aug 1996 [SATELLITES] Message-ID: <19960828221039187.AAA43@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:46:13 -0500 (CDT), Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >> >I'd worry far more about the stresses of launch bothering >> >the drives. >> >> That's not a problem at all. Most modern drives are rated for 10's >> of G's, non-operating. Satellite launches are probably a breeze >> compared to this. >I remember reading that Russian satellite launches with people aboard >had acceleration of about 9-10G. Since when do satellites have people on board? (Or was this some new way of silencing politcal prisoners?) / If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. / Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp / Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" / Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 / Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From declan at eff.org Wed Aug 28 20:36:28 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:36:28 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608281530.IAA20721@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Eric Murray wrote: > Heh. They forgot the Black Heliocopters manned by agents of > the UN/New World Order, and the Greys from Zeta Reticuli.. > > It's a hoax, with several clues that it is a hoax in it. > > Of course you're welcome to prove me wrong by disassembling > a PGP binary. Examination of the random numnber generator, IDEA > key setup, or RSA key setup vs what's in the source code > should show if something fishy is going on. Unless of course the program you're using to view the disassembled instructions has also been altered by the TriLats. And make sure you use any pre-1992 compiler on a pre-1992 operating system on a computer that's not hooked up to the Net or even located where NSA agents can get to it. "Steingold" was a nice touch. -Declan // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 28 20:46:36 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:46:36 +0800 Subject: A _REALLY_ Interesting Bet In-Reply-To: <32246E57.7D55368C@systemics.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Gary Howland wrote: > Anonymous wrote: > > > > Betting on football is one thing, but some of us would be very > > interested in the odds on US presidential election outcomes as > > November approaches. This kind of betting is illegal here, and > > I haven't looked lately for a "Ladbroke's" type site, but it is > > interesting because the betting odds from across the Atlantic > > more closely match eventual election results than the annoying > > calls from Gallup & Roper during suppertime. I have posted here, > > anonymously, on this topic before, but some of you are aware of > > who I am. I'll thank you to keep that a secret. ;} > > Thinking about this some more - what would people want to see in such a > betting system. Would you be happy with two choices?: > > (Clinton/Dole) or Other > > or three choices?: > > Clinton, Dole or Other > > or would you want more choices than this? I'm asking, since we've been > tossing around this presidential election idea for a few days now, but > since we're not Americans, we're not too sure what is a suitable set > (bearing in mind that our idea for this will get more difficult as the > number of choices increases). Are these issues not listed currently on the IDEA FUTURES exchange? Anyone have the URL? > > Gary > -- > pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland > Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Wed Aug 28 20:49:36 1996 From: EALLENSMITH at ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. ALLEN SMITH) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:49:36 +0800 Subject: (flatulence): Reply-to loops Message-ID: <01I8TLQPNVKG9JDG1J@mbcl.rutgers.edu> From: IN%"rah at shipwright.com" "Robert Hettinga" 28-AUG-1996 02:44:31.09 >We don't do it because of reply-to loops. >Only idiots, or charitably, those with very low traffic, run their mail >lists any other way. >Accidentally sending private e-mail to the list is bad enough without >bringing the listserver to its knees... Umm... only one other list I'm on does reply-to to something other than the list, and some of those lists are running majordomo. Reply-to to the list doesn't have to cause problems; only a few domains (compuserve.com, wow.com, and one other that I can't remember offhand) cause error problems to reply-to addresses. The point about low volume mailing lists vs high volume ones is, however, a good point; the other list with reply-to to other than the list that I'm on is one designed for low traffic. -Allen From kooltek at iol.ie Wed Aug 28 21:02:28 1996 From: kooltek at iol.ie (Hack Watch News) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:02:28 +0800 Subject: stego virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Moroni wrote: > If a virus is embedded into a giff ,is it executed when the giff is or > does it require the usual overwriting etc methods to execute it? > The GIF would contain the operational data and the viewer would contain the engine. Both would be inert until mixed just like binary nerve gasses. The problem would be detecting the data in the GIF or indeed any other form of file. Theoretically it could even be part of a text file using the high bits. Regards...jmcc From root at HellSpawn Wed Aug 28 21:14:02 1996 From: root at HellSpawn (Damien Lucifer) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:14:02 +0800 Subject: Mimic Function Stego Programs? In-Reply-To: <199608282111.RAA17052@cbig1.att.att.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 stewarts at ix.netcom.com wrote: > Mimic Functions? I'm looking for something that you can hand a grammar > and a set of bits that will produce sentences in the grammar, > plus a decoder that can take the sentences and reconstruct the bits. I think Texto is what you are looking for, and it is available from the cypherpunks archive in the steganography directory. If you can't find it, drop me a private note and I'll mail it to you... A quick outline of its function: It uses a file full of Mad-Lib type sentence blanks, and a dictionary full of words arranged by type (person, place, thing, verb, etc). There are 64 words of each type which correspond to the 64 ascii symbols used in pgp ascii armor, or alternately, the 64 symbols used by standard uuencode. The sentence structures look like: The _THING _VERBs to the _PLACE. It selects an appropriate word type for the particular blank it needs to fill, and inserts the word corresponding to the symbol in the data to be hidden. Extracting the data from the resulting text is pretty straightforward: All words that don't appear in the dictionary file are discarded. The words that remain are mapped back to their corresponding sybols. You can expect your data to grow to 10 times its original size in the process of steg'ing, and you'll have to ascii armor or uuencode the data before it can be stegged by this program, but its clever, and might fool a simple filter-bot or other program, although its doubtful it would ever fool a person. ciao From unicorn at schloss.li Wed Aug 28 21:37:18 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:37:18 +0800 Subject: libelous action In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960828165224.006a27ec@central.tansoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, James C. Sewell wrote: > At 02:57 AM 8/27/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote: > > >I would remind you that each and every sale you make of this product, when > > >based on material misrepresentation, constitutes a fraud. If made by > > >wire, as these sales seem they may, they represent wire fraud. That's one > > >count of fraud and one count of wire fraud. If a check is sent to you via > > >mail, that's a count of mail fraud to boot. > > > > > > Wow, imagine what would happen if a bunch of "in-the-know" folks bought > > a product like this under the claims to strong crypto and then found out > > they were fooled! With charges like these a guy could get into real trouble. > > > I sure hope Mr. Holt isn't personally accountable. He sounds like a > > real swell guy. It would be a shame for him to go to prison for what is > > obviously his misunderstanding of what is cryptographically strong and > > what is a pitiful excuse for a product. This would depend on whether Mr. Holt had made a reasonable assessment of the claims made by the author of the product before claiming that the product was exceptional or "unbreakable." I might note that the FTC is showing increased interest in cryptography products and the claims of their marketers. > > > Of course I've never seen his product so I don't know which category it > > falls into, but it would be a shame. > > > Disclaimer: I may or may not be serious. I have made no direct claims > > so whose to say what my intentions are in posting this ;\) > > > > > Jim Sewell - Programmer Tantalus Inc. > > jims at tansoft.com Key West, FL 33040 > > Amateur Radio: KD4CKQ 801 Eisenhower Drive > > Compu$erve: 71061,1027 Multi-player computer games > > > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From markm at voicenet.com Wed Aug 28 21:41:20 1996 From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:41:20 +0800 Subject: File System Encryption In-Reply-To: <199608281536.KAA07426@bermuda.io.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Douglas R. Floyd wrote: > Try a mirror. ftp.funet.fi, > /pub/crypt/mirrors/soda/cypherpunks/filesystems/linux. Unfortunately, funet is down also. csclub.uwaterloo.ca/pub/linux-stego seems to work right now. - -- Mark PGP encrypted mail prefered. Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348 http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMiTKpizIPc7jvyFpAQHIfAgAzHhGF4Krei/QeaOL85TyqfMQVvCcCLsM qs+3y2NqTSzoNAq4loV3B4foWSL6UsVjzNYVCVKnDZHC48FAA1uS1yNuW/k/Jx8c 2/2BEd4kkCDOqIT5dqg+EhQWGoJgKw265OP9YrmAOux+DWjznPXeiUsZYRtPKGFG CKrt7Om9Knz3Gb0Yli8gYBZahtXfN6/lmfyViCmYvbc5INOupVfL+X4koxQRoVAe f5uwiknaVaDYf5kc/Hr/xO1/UZvVXofJTInkdqP/D4ThCaCoH6m5c4TvMJBhU/3M pTXYL6iU/lpa1bVfF1jmgilzsufJo0GmDtjdx2toKETBycaSOyQmDg== =LecO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 28 21:45:49 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:45:49 +0800 Subject: stego virus Message-ID: At 11:56 PM 8/28/96, Moroni wrote: > If a virus is embedded into a giff ,is it executed when the giff is or >does it require the usual overwriting etc methods to execute it? > TIA The virus is activated when the GIF is _viewed_. The viewing of the GIF activates the cerebro-visual processing centers of the brain, activating the ancient Sumerian meme complex. I assume, of course, you are referring to the deadly Snow Crash Good Times virus. If infected, the only solution is to unsubscribe from the Cypherpunks list before others are similarly infected. Hey, Moroni, we've missed your particular slant these last few months. --Klaus We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From remailer at cypherpunks.ca Wed Aug 28 21:47:57 1996 From: remailer at cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:47:57 +0800 Subject: Not PGP, PGPfone! In-Reply-To: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: <199608290102.SAA07316@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> > Since version 2.1, PGP ("Pretty Good Privacy") has been rigged to > allow the NSA to easily break encoded messages. Early in 1992, the author, > Paul Zimmerman, was arrested by Government agents. He was told that he > would be set up for trafficking narcotics unless he complied. The Government > agency's demands were simple: He was to put a virtually undetectable > trapdoor, designed by the NSA, into all future releases of PGP, and to > tell no-one. This is wrong, and easily disproven. There was no way to put a trap door in PGP because the source code was made publically available. Modifying every C compiler in the world is just not realistic. However, the situation has become considerably different with PGPfone. Source code to PGPfone is kept extremely secret. A few outsiders may be given the source to review, but they will not be allowed to compile and distribute it. Only binaries of PGPfone compiled by the authors will be available. Some interesting portions of the program have even been intentionally obfuscated to make them extremely difficult to disassemble and analyze. With PGPfone, a back would be considerably easier to install... From backdraft at earthlink.net Wed Aug 28 21:53:33 1996 From: backdraft at earthlink.net (Back Draft) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:53:33 +0800 Subject: desubscribe Message-ID: I would like you to desubscribe me from you mailing list From jfricker at vertexgroup.com Wed Aug 28 22:30:52 1996 From: jfricker at vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:30:52 +0800 Subject: [NOISE]Re: stego virus aka Intro to Computers 101 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960829025715.006ae4c0@vertexgroup.com> trying not to be technical Excecuting a program involves putting commands into the CPU. Move data such as a GIF or a JPEG is not anywhere near the same. GIF, JPEGs, TIFFs, WAVs, AUs, MPEGs are data. Not executables. At 07:56 PM 8/28/96 -0400, you wrote: > If a virus is embedded into a giff ,is it executed when the giff is or >does it require the usual overwriting etc methods to execute it? > TIA > > From jim at ACM.ORG Wed Aug 28 22:38:44 1996 From: jim at ACM.ORG (Jim Gillogly) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:38:44 +0800 Subject: A _REALLY_ Interesting Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608290229.TAA10523@mycroft.rand.org> Black Unicorn writes: >Are these issues not listed currently on the IDEA FUTURES exchange? >Anyone have the URL? Idea Futures is dead, and the torch has passed to Foresight Exchange (FX), which is at http://www.ideosphere.com/ideosphere/ . You can bet on a number of political issues (US and other), though not (yet) for real money. Bill Clinton re-elected last sold at 89 (out of 100), and Dole beats Clinton last sold at 15. This doesn't track the polls, which typically ask who the potential voter would vote for rather than who they think will win the election. Other issues: Percentage of popular vote to Dem candidate: 47 " " Rep " : 44 " " Other " : 12 Note that there may be an opportunity for arbitrage when numbers don't add up to 100; but I'm simplifying, since there are separate buy and sell bids. Third party candidate gets the most votes : 4 Clinton landslide 20 Dole landslide 4 Democrats retake the House in 96 45 Democrats retake the Senate in 96 30 Percent electoral votes to Democrats 70 President without popular majority 55 Clinton resigns or impeached by end of 96 1 And so on... Jim Gillogly Hevensday, 7 Halimath S.R. 1996, 02:29 From tcmay at got.net Wed Aug 28 22:45:40 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:45:40 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? Message-ID: At 10:09 PM 8/28/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Eric Murray wrote: > >> Heh. They forgot the Black Heliocopters manned by agents of >> the UN/New World Order, and the Greys from Zeta Reticuli.. >> >> It's a hoax, with several clues that it is a hoax in it. >> >> Of course you're welcome to prove me wrong by disassembling >> a PGP binary. Examination of the random numnber generator, IDEA >> key setup, or RSA key setup vs what's in the source code >> should show if something fishy is going on. > >Unless of course the program you're using to view the disassembled >instructions has also been altered by the TriLats. And make sure you use >any pre-1992 compiler on a pre-1992 operating system on a computer that's >not hooked up to the Net or even located where NSA agents can get to it. Ha! You think a pre-1992 compiler and OS wil fix this? What about the processor? I can assure you, as a longterm Intel employee during these formative years, that Intel was pressured into including the famous "NSA instructions" into the 8080, in 1974. These instructions are well-known, and the Cray had them as well. Inasmuch as the 8080 instructions live on in every x86 processor--like the reptilian brain inside all of us--this gives the NSA instant access to all contents of the processor. This is why I use a Mac, of course. --Perry Noyd We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From declan at eff.org Wed Aug 28 22:46:29 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:46:29 +0800 Subject: NSF yanks Iran's Internet connection, from HotWired Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:08:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Subject: NSF yanks Iran's Internet connection, from HotWired Attached is my column on the NSF and Iran. After I filed it, I received an unconfirmed note from the NSF saying that they removed the restriction in response to my calls earlier today. I'll verify tomorrow. I have some original documents on the Iran sanctions law and executive order at: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ -Declan // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // http://www.netizen.com/netizen/96/35/special3a.html HotWired The Netizen Banning Iran by Declan McCullagh (declan at well.com) Washington, DC, 28 August The US government has quietly pulled the plug on Iran's Internet connection. The catch? No one gave it permission. Earlier this month, a National Science Foundation official blocked crucial international links to Iran, apparently in response to an Iran and Libya Sanctions Act that became law on 5 August. The move prevents people in the United States from connecting to Iranian computers by cutting off access to the country's only permanent Net connection - a single, achingly slow 9600 bps modem. The link joins the Internet at Austria's Vienna University, which received a letter from an NSF employee - who the foundation claims acted without authority - asking their network gurus to cease forwarding Iranian data to American networks. The NSF employee, Steve Goldstein, told the university that the United States embargoed such exchanges with Iran. From Austria, packets travel across the Atlantic through links funded in part by US taxpayers, which Goldstein claims gives the NSF control over them. Goldstein works in the agency's Networking and Communications Research and Infrastructure division. The NSF's action, however, tramples on the First Amendment. The Supreme Court has upheld the right of Americans to receive a wide range of information from abroad. An existing executive order explicitly allows the import and export of Iranian informational materials regardless of medium of transmission, according to Solveig Bernstein, a lawyer with the Cato Institute. "Congress intended any sanctions the president took to be directed at money and weapons production, not communications," she said. The NSF isn't accepting responsibility. The agency claims Goldstein acted on his own volition. Although Goldstein declined comment, the agency's lawyers say he was not authorized to block the line. "We were not asked by Dr. Goldstein for any opinions, so I'm not sure on what basis we're doing it," said John Chester, NSF legal counsel. Other NSF officials did not return repeated phone calls. Many Iranians in the United States are outraged at losing access to friends, family, and educational links in Iran. Farhad Shakeri, a software engineer at Stanford University who operates the Iranian Cultural and Information Center, says: "Lots of people in Iran are confused. They can't talk to any university in the world.... We just want the problem fixed." Anoosh Hosseini, a webmaster at the Global Publishing Group, says: "It affects me as a person. I want to visit my cousin's homepage, and my brother's homepage. The University of Texas has a Middle Eastern research center, but now they can't research Iran [on the Net]." ### From qut at netcom.com Wed Aug 28 23:07:22 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:07:22 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608281157.EAA04520@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: <199608290321.UAA15144@netcom.netcom.com> ! I snagged this off a news group this AM.. comments?? ! ! A lot of people think that PGP encryption is unbreakable and that the ! NSA/FBI/CIA/MJ12 cannot read their mail. This is wrong, and it can be a ! deadly mistake. In Idaho, a left-wing activist by the name of Craig Steingold ! was arrested _one day_ before he and others where to stage a protest at ! government buildings; the police had a copy of a message sent by Steingold ! to another activist, a message which had been encrypted with PGP and sent ! through E-mail. ! ! Since version 2.1, PGP ("Pretty Good Privacy") has been rigged to ! allow the NSA to easily break encoded messages. Early in 1992, the author, ! Paul Zimmerman, was arrested by Government agents. He was told that he ! would be set up for trafficking narcotics unless he complied. The Government ! agency's demands were simple: He was to put a virtually undetectable ! trapdoor, designed by the NSA, into all future releases of PGP, and to ! tell no-one. ! ! After reading this, you may think of using an earlier version of ! PGP. However, any version found on an FTP site or bulletin board has been ! doctored. Only use copies acquired before 1992, and do NOT use a recent ! compiler to compile them. Virtually ALL popular compilers have been ! modified to insert the trapdoor (consisting of a few trivial changes) into ! any version of PGP prior to 2.1. Members of the boards of Novell, Microsoft, ! Borland, AT&T and other companies were persuaded into giving the order for ! the modification (each ot these companies' boards contains at least one ! Trilateral Commission member or Bilderberg Committee attendant). The only true part in this hoax is the extent of corporate and political membership in international capitalist organizations like the Council of Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergers, and hundreds of other redundent alike organizations dedicated to making the whole world the same. ! It took the agency more to modify GNU C, but eventually they did it. ! The Free Software Foundation was threatened with "an IRS investigation", ! in other words, with being forced out of business, unless they complied. The ! result is that all versions of GCC on the FTP sites and all versions above ! 2.2.3, contain code to modify PGP and insert the trapdoor. Recompiling GCC ! with itself will not help; the code is inserted by the compiler into ! itself. Recompiling with another compiler may help, as long as the compiler ! is older than from 1992. This identical post was included in an issue of Phrack about three or four years ago. So this bogus post is already pretty old. With all the real creepy stuff happening in the world, who needs to make up lies? From Adamsc at io-online.com Wed Aug 28 23:09:07 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:09:07 +0800 Subject: DoJ is poking around Message-ID: <19960829032231781.AAA184@IO-ONLINE.COM> >> >looks like the DoJ have been looking around at the mirrors.. maybe to >> >legally hassle people about them.... >> Or, just maybe, some DoJ employees wanted to see what folks on the outside >> were doing to tweek their bosses:-)? Reminds me of the *thousands* of hits >> the "Intel Secrets Page"(http://www.x86.org/) has gotten from users at >> intel.com Out of curiosity, has anyone used a decompiler to check if any of the undocumented stuff is getting used in shipping programs? - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From andrew_loewenstern at il.us.swissbank.com Wed Aug 28 23:24:59 1996 From: andrew_loewenstern at il.us.swissbank.com (Andrew Loewenstern) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:24:59 +0800 Subject: SUN_pak In-Reply-To: <199608281900.TAA15017@pipe2.t2.usa.pipeline.com> Message-ID: <9608282355.AA00745@ch1d157nwk> I was looking at the description of this patent (thanks to JYA for providing easy access to this article...), and I can't believe Sun got a patent for this. Tunneling encrypted IP sessions over regular IP by using a gateway router is hardly a novel idea and is immediately obvious to anyone who is knowledgable in networking and crypto. Aren't there already products out there (hardware and software) that implement this sort of thing? I seem to remember Cisco producing a router and MorningStar producing software that did this. I also seem to remember the concept being discussed on this very list several years back (can't check the archives from work though...) I believe there is even a name for it: VPN (Virtual Private Networks) John Gilmore is currently putting together a project to do much the same thing in software... Did I miss something innovative in this patent, or is this another example of clueless patent examiners granting patents for things that don't deserve patent protection? andrew From alanh at infi.net Wed Aug 28 23:26:58 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:26:58 +0800 Subject: DoJ is poking around In-Reply-To: <199608281742.DAA30588@heaven.myinternet.net> Message-ID: I have a military account. Not all govt or military accounts belong to black-helicopter pilots. From dfloyd at io.com Wed Aug 28 23:30:19 1996 From: dfloyd at io.com (Douglas R. Floyd) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:30:19 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: <199608282125.RAA26272@galapas.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: <199608290317.WAA04148@xanadu.io.com> > > > > It took the agency more to modify GNU C, but eventually they did it. > > >The Free Software Foundation was threatened with "an IRS investigation", > > >in other words, with being forced out of business, unless they complied. The > > >result is that all versions of GCC on the FTP sites and all versions above > > >2.2.3, contain code to modify PGP and insert the trapdoor. Recompiling GCC > > >with itself will not help; the code is inserted by the compiler into > > >itself. Recompiling with another compiler may help, as long as the compiler > > >is older than from 1992. > > Umm, no. I work for the Foundation in my copious free time. This > has never happened. And I just asked Richard about it to be sure. He > was amused. > It would be *very* difficult to pass this by anyone. People at > FSF diff the source code a lot, and we're far from the only ones. > This has been a common joke for years now, the gcc "virus". Its nothing more than a troll. (Its getting boring, however) From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Wed Aug 28 23:36:50 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:36:50 +0800 Subject: Hayek (was: Cato Institute conference on Net-regulation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8a0DTD20w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Senile tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) (fart) rants: > At 4:26 AM 8/28/96, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > >Senile tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) rants: > >> Indeed, Hayek has had a _lot_ to do with the Cypherpunks! From "The Road t > >> Serfdom" to "Law, Legislation, and Liberty," his works have exerted a > >> profound influence on me, and on many others. > > > >But he's fucking unreadable. I plan to teach economic this semester and > >make every student read Hazlitt (economics in 1 lesson). I can't force them > >to read hayek (or Rothbard) because they're fucking unreadable. Shit. > > Well, to one who inserts "(spit)" after nearly every name he cites, and > critiques Hayek as "fucking unreadable. Shit.," I suppose Hayek must indeed > seem unreadable. Shit. Are you jealous, Tim )fart)? You're just a senile old fart, not worth my spittle. I make you feel better I'll put (fart) after you stupid name. Shit. > After all, Hayek rarely writes things like: "The senile Von Mises (spit) > and his Sovok Cabal plotters...." Senile Tim May (fart) exposes himself as a liar by attributing to me shit I've never said (Pidor Vorobiev's forgeries). Please stop polluting this mailing list with your lies and personal attacks. > As to "forcing" your students to read Hayek, just who is in charge? If > you're the instructor, they can choose to read what you tell them to read, > or be unprepared on the exams you give and possibly flunk the class. What > part of "Required Reading" do you or your students not understand? It's been many years since Tim May (spit) has been to college, hasn't it? I don't blackmail my students into doing the work they don't want to do by blackmailing them with grades. When I taught comp.sec., I said from the start that everyone gets an A, and I trust tgen to be motivated enough to read everything I _suggest_ they read. And they all did a great job and earn3d their A's. Senile Tim May (fart) is a fucking statist asshole. Fuck you and fuck your criminal Arm*nian grandparents. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From dsmith at prairienet.org Thu Aug 29 00:20:37 1996 From: dsmith at prairienet.org (David E. Smith) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:20:37 +0800 Subject: Clinton follies ideas? Message-ID: <199608290308.WAA11904@bluestem.prairienet.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Wed Aug 28 21:57:52 1996 Our esteemed figurehead, Bill Clinton, will be doing the first stop of his "Road to Victory Tour" campaign this Friday, just a few blocks from my apartment. Does anybody have any cool suggestions on things to do to harass, heckle, or maybe get taken down by the Secret Service? (Or should I just yell, 'Clinton, you suck!'? :) dave Special P.S. to all FBI wiretappers: This is a joke. - ----- David Smith, Thinker of Deep Thoughts :) http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/library.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMiUHMzVTwUKWHSsJAQE4ygf9F5ihhla2NguUFEFEgqDEb97haqqIv2ak MQ07CRohP+QHYBsMnsnqjMvZslVnQCkr+mJWa8DC22dEPvGQ58+8NdsuykspIgEE jegvZuQqGBmHex3fz6NLcYBQXFuyF8fbGEaXuHJjmvszkZDBqe3Fo95ywuMJPklZ TIpZjE2xbX7T+H6yK2itIi/cmyPHN7zTfHKpdvjWcAY6hMVXuQwLx5g/cg3AErA4 R7MhDTnL2uH/16ccYQKPnpyBqxZ/DYg/DzrwO0Jj1RzeXBllTyALXMt5pQRKrbuy xl8IJJ4j1cFIjeiOvg/tTBpOoFP1f3tj8iDLBYrzqxCytelyWxgQnw== =LK29 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 29 00:39:45 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:39:45 +0800 Subject: MUD anyone? Message-ID: <199608290508.WAA00670@mail.pacifier.com> At 09:47 AM 8/27/96 -0700, Jon Leonard wrote: >> Would anyone out there be interested in helping set up a >> crypto-anarcho-capitalist MUD to play around with some of the social >> aspects of crypto-anarchy and anarcho-capitalism? I can probably hack >> together a basic lpmud in a month or two if someone has a machine which >> it could run on and which could run a mailing list for those involved. > >I've been planning to run a MUD like that, at mud.umop-ap.com port 2121. >I just don't have enough coded to be worth announcing yet. >Which cryptographic primitives should be coded in initially? >Obvious choices are: >Pseudonyms >Anonymous digital cash (issued by any pseudonym, not just "banks") >Public and private keys >Secret sharing >Anonymous broadcast & message pools >Anonymous markets > >What am I missing? Should there be direct support for Jim Bell's >assasination markets? It'd provide a means of demonstrating its >ineffectiveness as a means of social control. Aren't you writing up the results of the experiment before you even take the data? That's called "dry-labbing." In any case, I'd welcome such a simulation, but there are a number of caveats. To me, the most obvious one is GIGO: Simulations, especially political/social ones, might depend heavily on assumptions that are programmed into them. A trivial, yet interesting example is the computer game "Sim City" which allowed you to adjust the "tax rate" but problems always cropped up the further away you were from 7%. The libertarians were frustrated that we were unable to drop the tax rate and still get a well-functioning, happy society. It is unlikely, obviously, that there is anything magical to a society about a tax rate of 7% The answer is likely that the people who wrote the program simply hard-coded it into the game, either directly or as a consequence of various political/social assumptions that they didn't realize they were making. Another problem was demonstrated a few weeks ago when a "game theory"-type problem was proposed on CP, the one where 20 thieves sequentially are given the task to propose the disbursement of $20 million in loot, with a vote on the proposal and death for the proposer of a rejected proposal. I pointed out that the difficulty with an _exact_ (game-theoretical) solution to such a problem is that the "cost" of death in this problem is undefined. A person might be willing to take a risk of death for $20 million that he's unwilling to take for $20 THOUSAND, and certainly not $20 DOLLARS. AP (Assassination Politics), at least the initial "government-eliminating" function of it, should work on a financially-sound principle: Actuarially, the value of a continuing $1/year obligation is $20 if the real interest rate is 5%. This means that if a randomly-selected government employee is paid $40K per year including benefits (money which is stolen from taxpayers), it would be worth a one-time cost (actuarially speaking) of 20x40K, or $800,000 to see him dead and not replaced. Assuming his death can be purchased for less than this, you are dollars ahead to buy it. If you can buy his death for, say, $20,000 (half his yearly salary) you have, in effect, profited by $800,000-$20,000 or $780,000 to do this. (Technically, the amount _society_ would benefit is actually the amount of salary cost eliminated, minus the ordinary benefit of that government employee doing his usual job. A person (statist?) might try to conclude from this that getting rid of them won't save much. That's the collectivist point of view. However, the people who (unwillingly) finance these salaries with their tax dollars, and the people who arguably benefit from these employees are, in my estimation, two separate and distinct groups of individuals, so my analysis is still valid for the former group.) It gets even better. If most of these employees decide that discretion is the better part of valor, and 90% of them resign rather than (almost literally!) get the ax then the average cost of getting rid of a given employee is reduced by another factor of 10, perhaps to $2,000. And obviously, the system feeds on itself: Once the average cost of getting rid of them drops to $2,000, their fate is so certain that the resignation rate would probably skyrocket to well over 99%, which would further reduce the average cost to perhaps $200, and so on. The overall effect is somewhat akin of "falling off a cliff," or perhaps the collapse of a star destined to become a black hole: Once a certain point it reached return is impossible or impractical. Now you should understand why I'd be quite pleased to see such a system modelled: It would be great to be able to vary the initial conditions, and see that the outcome turns out almost identically each time. Such an outcome would make you very nervous: It would show that I am correct! (BTW, a similar analysis will probably suggest that the amount of money traditionally spent on US national defense would drop from the current figure of about $250 billion to no more than 1/1000th of this, or maybe even far less, and for similar reasons.) Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From unicorn at schloss.li Thu Aug 29 01:19:07 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:19:07 +0800 Subject: Annoucing LivePGP - content security for web (fwd) Message-ID: -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From ssl-lists-owner at minbne.mincom.oz.au Thu Aug 29 01:00:59 1996 > Message-Id: <01BB9594.5E8FC740 at minuet> > From: Ming-Ching Tiew > Subject: Annoucing LivePGP - content security for web > Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:25:07 +-800 > Encoding: 54 TEXT > Sender: ssl-lists-owner at mincom.com > Precedence: bulk > > Inspired by Adam Cain's write-up ( and others ) on comparison on the using of PGP, > SSL/HTTPS, SHTTP and others on Web technologies, I have written a LivePGP > plugin for Navigator 3.x and is available for evaluation for anybody who cares to > send me a email ( as I don't have a leased line connection to internet ). > > See below for a summary. > > Thank you, > Regards, > Ming-Ching > mctiew at csi.po.my > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > As a summary, this is a plugin for Navigator 3.x which I developed it > myself, and which I called it LivePGP because it uses LiveConnect and > PGP. > > LivePGP is a plugin to be loaded on Navigator machine; it secures the > content before transmittion to the network. Therefore, it doesn't matter > what network or what's or ever. > > With absolutely no intention to compete with SSL and SHTTP, LivePGP > attempts to address some issues with existing security products :- > > 1. 1024-bit key length of PGP in comparison with 40-bit for SSL ( due to > international export limitation ). PGP is a well-known product which > has survived years to testing. > > 2. Extended security vs point-to-point security provided by SSL. Content > coming out of SSL client and server are plain text, which may > be subjected to system administrator's tempering with the data. Using > LivePGP, the decryption of data can be relayed as late as (operationally) possible. > > More important practical reason is that the signed content can be logged > on the client and server; it is very useful to addresss non-repudiation. > The client cannot argue that he didnot submit the transaction, because > the content which contains the client's signature can be logged and printed out. > > Similary, system administrator's tempering the data could be checked against > with. > > 3. Even thought the plugin is developed using C/C++ and Java, > deployment for any scenerio need only standard HTML/Javascript. > > 4. Client is Win95/NT. Server can be anything. Win3.11 is unknown. > > 5. Every part introduced by me is source code available. > > 6. Can use it together with SSL to make use of the high transparency > of SSL. > > 7. Can use it to upload ( signed and encrypted ) local files, in addition > to uploading ( signed and encrypted ) web content. From isi at hooked.net Thu Aug 29 01:32:02 1996 From: isi at hooked.net (Institute for Security and Intelligence) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:32:02 +0800 Subject: In reference to comments made to me and to the Group Message-ID: <199608290618.XAA12301@mom.hooked.net> Mr. Geiger: I do not have interest in nor time for a flame war. But I do appreciate your perspective, whether or not I agree. Rather than flaming, I propose that all interested readers post their *CONSTRUCTIVE* ideas on the CyberTerrorism issue. If you feel it is not an issue, then don't respond. I'm not looking for opinions on politicians, the government, etc., nor do I care what you think of me or my views. However, if you can put some _solid_ thoughts into bullet items, or any other format you deem useful, perhaps we can move forward. Ideas. Actions. No commentary, raves, rants, flames, or other bandwidth wasters. Let's see what we come up with. Barry C. Collin Institute for Security and Intelligence From minow at apple.com Thu Aug 29 01:47:04 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:47:04 +0800 Subject: libelous action In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960828165224.006a27ec@central.tansoft.com> Message-ID: Black Unicorn comments, > >I might note that the FTC is showing increased interest in cryptography >products and the claims of their marketers. > Hmm, can we get FTC and NSA to fight: if NSA says that a product may be exported, maybe FTC won't let the seller claim it is capable of protecting data. Intresting. Martin Minow minow at apple.com From whgiii at amaranth.com Thu Aug 29 01:50:21 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:50:21 +0800 Subject: In reference to comments made to me and to the Group In-Reply-To: <3224A412.D05@hooked.net> Message-ID: <199608290528.AAA08702@mailhub.amaranth.com> In <3224A412.D05 at hooked.net>, on 08/28/96 at 12:54 PM, "Barry C. Collin" said: Well folks, I am not in the habit of jumping into flame wars, but...... >This message was in response to comments made by E. Allen Smith on my recent remarks on cyberterrorism. >Dear Mr. Smith: >Thank you for your perspectives. Save for the irrelevant flaming, I appreciated your taking time. >Following are my comments. > >>>Terrorism to CyberTerrorism >> >>> The face of terrorism is changing. While the motivations remain the >>> same, we are now facing new and unfamiliar weapons. The intelligence >>> systems, tactics, security procedures and equipment that were once >>> expected to protect people, systems, and nations, are powerless >>> against this new, and very devastating weapon. Moreover, the methods >>> of counter-terrorism that our world's specialists have honed over the >>> years are ineffectual against this enemy. Because, this enemy does not >>> attack us with truckloads of explosives, nor with briefcases of Sarin >>> gas, nor with dynamite strapped to the bodies of fanatics. This enemy >>> attacks us with one's and zero's, at a place we are most vulnerable: >>> the point at which the _physical _and _virtual _worlds converge. Let >>> us first define theses two domains. >> >> Ever since the dawn of technological civilization, we've been vulnerable >>to terrorism inflicted by those with technological knowledge and intelligence. >>Ever since someone discovered how to produce poisonous gases, we've been >>vulnerable to attacks such as those in the Japanese subways. Ever since the >>electrification of countries, we've been vulnerable to attacks on power >>production and distribution systems. Ever since most vehicles became >>petroleum-powered, we've been vulnerable to attacks on petroleum production and >>distribution systems. Ever since we found out how to cultivate anthrax, we've >>been vulnerable to any competent bacteriologist. >These are all different tools. Some are simple to create and deploy, some are not. While the >definition of classical terrorism (and its motivations) remain the same, we must study each of >these tools separately if we are to understand how to detect, prevent, and respond to the >threats. >> All the above is is Information Super-Highway hype. >Thank you for your opinion. I beleive the concern of Mr. Smith and my others concerning myself is that the methods used to "protect" us from such events are more harmfull than the initial threat. It is all too often that a minor threat receives massive publicity in the press. Then politions jump in with knee-jerk reactions to add "new and improved" restrictions to ones liberties & give law-enforcement sweeping new powers, Consitution be damed. If you paied any attention to the Senate hearing after Oklahoma and TWA 800 you could such behaviour of our polititions even though such laws will not help 1% to prevent such acts in the future. >>[...] >> >>>Achieving CyberTerrorist Goals >> >>> So how does a CyberTerrorist achieve his mission? Like any terrorist, >>> a CyberTerrorist actively exploits the goals of the target population >>> in areas in which they take for granted. >> >>> There are three potential acts in CyberTerrorism at the point of >>> convergence: >>> * 1.Destruction; >>> * 2.Alteration; and >>> * 3.Acquisition and retransmission (these are a unit). >> >> I would point out that many instances of the last (I would guess you refer to >>the getting and distribution of, say, ITAR-restricted information - you do >>accuse crackers of complicity in "CyberTerrorism" by breaking military >>security) are not, properly speaking, terrorism; they are instead the >>distribution of information that should not be restricted. >You guessed incorrectly; I'm not talking ITAR. Test yourself: Can you think of any sensitive or personal >information, that if exposed or utilized, could cause terror -- or destabilization? If you can't, you are >not trying; you should know more than most the value of privacy, whether it be military, corporate, or >personal. I think what we have here is the all to common practice of grouping all criminal activities under the heading of "terrorism".While this may be advantagious for the Federal Government to do so placing what was once the juristiction of the States into the hand of the Feds. It does make nice splashy headlines for the newsmedia so they can sell more newspapers. It has no place in a rational disscusion of the security issues of Computers, Networks, and the Internet. If someone aquires personal information about myself and at worst steels all the money out of my bank account. That is a crime, it is theft, and their are plenty of laws on the books to handle such a crime. It is NOT terrorism. While I agree that there is potential for harm being caused by a sofisticated, well orginised, state sponcered terrorist orginization, I for one am not going to lose any sleep over it. Yes there is a "threat" but No the sky is not falling. >>One person's >>terrorist is another person's freedom fighter (I'd call both sides in >>Nicaragua's Sandanista-Contra conflict terrorists). >This nifty statement frequently comes from people who've never seen a child blown up, seen people >disfigured, seen property damaged beyond all recognition. Perhaps it is a safe place in your office, Mr. >Smith, behind your terminal judging other's thoughts. I don't have that luxury. I've spent more than >anyone's fair share of time going through rubble, identifying pieces of what were once people, and telling >their families. >Freedom fighters who kill random and innocent victims are terrorists and cowards. If you feel otherwise, >Mr. Smith, perhaps it is time to step out into harm's way, and then perhaps you too will waken in the >night with the images that haunt me. *Then* you can talk to me about such matters. Until then, stick to >coding. Pulling at ones hartstrings in such a debate only shows the wekness and emptyness of your argument. I am unaware of you location but between growing up in the MiddleEast & my service in the military I have seen my fair share of the "better" side of Man. You by no means have a monopoly on this. Mr. Smith bring up a vailid point. It is one of perspective. Who you consider terrorist and who you consider heros depends on what side of an issue you stand. The American saw no problem with the 10's of thousands who died in the fire bombing of Dresdin or the Atomic Blasts over Japan. The populations Germany & Japan were supportive of their leadership in the murder of millions durring their campaines of expantion. Look at Ireland; if you are Prodistant or British the IRA are the terrorist while if you are Catholic then it is the British & Prodistant that are the "terrorist". The Jews in Israel had no problem with blowing up the British but don't like it too much now that the Palisinians are doing the same thing to them. The whole issue of "Terrorist" vs. "Freedom-Fighter" is one of perspective. >> >>[...] >> >>>Potential CyberTerrorist Acts >> >>[...] >> >>> * A CyberTerrorist will attack the next generation of air traffic >>> control systems, and collide two large civilian aircraft. This is >>> a realistic scenario, since the CyberTerrorist will also crack the >>> aircraft's in-cockpit sensors. Much of the same can be done to the >>> rail lines. >> >> Only a bloody utter idiot would build such systems without enough >>backups to avoid these problems; they could come about through computer bugs >>or component failures as well. Networked systems are notorious for going down >>(see the recent happenings with AOL, for instance); they're _going_ to have >>backups if anyone intelligent is running them. Of course, you may have a point >>with a government-controlled air traffic controller systems. >> The same can be said of most of your other scenarios. >These require more than once person be involved. Do not kid yourself, we are not dealing with stupid >people here. And bloody utter idiots we have a-plenty -- too many administrators more concerned with >their balance sheets to provide the tools people like you need to build safe systems. You'd be surprised >of the amount of criminally-inadequate systems out there. That's why it _is_ important that folks like >you push the envelope to better the systems. The goal here, Mr. Smith, is to put me out of business, not >by flames, but by helping to build better systems. I think we share that goal. >> >>>CyberTerrorists: Who, Where, and Why? >> >>> The purpose of this paper is to help you understand the threats that >>> exist, and hopefully, to help you prevent these types of atrocities. >>> But know this - there are people out there with very different goals, >>> who are our real threats, and who are, or will be, attacking us. Make >>> no mistake, _the threats are real, today___.__ >> >> Most people with technical knowledge have a pretty large motivation to >>keep the technical society going. One, the loss of it would make our knowledge >>useless. Two, we have enough contact with technology and science to want it to >>continue - how many neo-Luddite engineers do you know? The Unabomber is the >>main exception... and even he didn't use his main area of knowledge in his >>bombings. >We are not concerned with engineers. We are concerned with fanatics, and fanatics are fanatics whether >they are engineers or gardeners. Do not be so naive to believe that everyone shares the morals you have. >Mr. Smith, there are people out there who want you dead, and will use all the techniques you pointed out >above to accomplish their goal. As I said before, technology is just another tool. >>> Who are the CyberTerrorists? There a great many poor movies and too >>> many works of fiction about the hacker and cracker communities. In the >>> popular media, there recently was the Kevin Mitnick incident, where >>> one cracker broke into another cracker's systems. This spawned endless >>> press and at least two best selling books. While this incident >>> received much attention, the events amounted to meaningless children's >>> games. >> >> I'd agree with that, from what I know of the Mitnick incident(s). I'm >>not sure if Shinomura (sp?) should be called a cracker; others with more >>knowledge can comment on this. >Agreed. > >>> By and large, the cracker community, based primarily in the United >>> States, Europe, the Middle East, Asia, and in the nations of the >>> former Soviet Union, is composed of individuals who see the cracking >>> process merely as a challenge, a brain teaser, a puzzle. They view >>> themselves as not only being innocent of any crime, but perhaps even >>> doing something righteous, something to counter the dark monoliths of >>> the corporate and government worlds. They believe they are being >>> persecuted. These individuals believe that what they are doing is not >>> doing any true damage. At its least harmful, these crackers just look >>> at information. However, privacy issues and military secrecy can >>> render such infiltrations acts of terror. >> >> Often, military secrecy is just an excuse to not allow information >>damaging to governments, etcetera from getting out. With NSC involvement, how >>deeply do you think the Iran-Contra dealings were classified? I would, however, >>agree with you about privacy issues... but governments are far greater threats >>in this regard than all the crackers in the world. Much of the information in >>question would not be around in so many places (such as notoriously accessible >>government databanks) except for governments gathering information they >>shouldn't have in the first place. >Whether you are right or wrong about what governments have locked away is not in my work area. As I've >said, my work is in fanatics, the disenfranchised, etc. People are people, and some turn rogue. It >happens. And people are purchased. My work keeps me entrenched in such mire regularly. More unwarrented use of "acts of terror" and "terrorism". Unauthorised access to information is not an act of terror. PEROID. Someone looked at somthing they shouldn't have. that's it. Put that at the criminal level of a mistamener . Could someone use that information for a more serious criminal act at some later point in time. Yes. Is this likely, eh mabye, mabye not. If it is illegal for me to carry a knife then I am only guilty of carring a knife I am not guilty of commiting murder even though it is possiable for me to commit murder with a knife. >> >>[...] >> >>>Crackers as Facilitators >> >>[...] >> >>> Historically, individuals engaged in the practice of terror tended not >>> to be people working upon a computer 20 hours per day. Terrorists have >>> not been in the business of tracking the latest holes found in UNIX or >>> an obscure government telnet opportunity. There _are _people, however, >>> who are in that business - for illicit as well as good cause. As >>> stated, just as indigenous people may be turned into soldiers, so can >>> crackers be turned into CyberTerrorists. Sometimes such a transition >>> may be motivated by money or prestige. Usually, this transition will >>> occur without the cracker's cognizance. The potential threat from such >>> transitions is mind boggling, considering the damage even one >>> mis-directed cracker can cause. >> >> The first statement is correct... and is likely to continue to be the >>case. We would appreciate some evidence for such transitions occurring without >>cognizance, or indeed being at all likelyLet me know what you do for a living, and then we can share more. >Not trying to be "spooky", but understand that my piece of the world rests in the violent >world, and I need to watch my own back. We all live in a "violent" world. Alway have and alway will. Just the nature of the beast. >> >>> Further, as young, educated people are brought into the folds of >>> terrorist groups, this new generation will have the talent to execute >>> the acts of CyberTerrorism of which we have spoken. >> >> Unlikely. For state-sponsored terrorism, for instance, countries with >>the motivation for such are also ones that tend to block people from computer >>experience. Getting on the Internet is rather likely to expose the people in >>such countries to information that will destabilize them... including programs >>such as PGP that are restricted by ITAR in the name of (among other things) >>decreasing terrorism. >You might be interested in the number of "students" attending our universities that have solid >terrorism backgrounds. The ones I spoke to made their purpose very clear. And what did you do after speaking the these "students"? As a concerned citizen did you bother to report this information to the State Department, FBI, Immigration? Or did you just walk away with all kinds of warm fuzzies because you got dirty talking to potential "terrorist". [more bloated rehash of media-catch phrases] >>>Ex Post Facto >> >>> An effective auditing system will only inform the target manager that >>> they have taken a hit; perhaps a fatal hit. By that point, it is too >>> late. _Now _is the time to take action. Unfortunately, due to this >>> open nature of this document, specific counter-CyberTerrorism measures >>> cannot be discussed. Those discussions must be reserved for secured >>> facilities. >> >> Nobody disagrees with that auditing isn't the _only_ method needed; >> _everyone_ uses other methods. >Watch your generalizations. You'd better tune in to how bad things really are. >Remember that old saying about prevention and cure? >> Your claim that you can't discuss security in the open is laughable. >>Quite simply, security by obscurity doesn't work; in cryptography, it's one of >>the signs of "silicon snake-oil" - which is what this document looks like in >>any event. First, making a system obscure motivates a lot of people to try to >>find out how it works; intelligent people are curious, and don't like >>unnecessary secrets unless they're authoritarians. Second, the less people >>know about a system, the less people can spot bugs to be _fixed_ in that >>system. I prefer a system that has been tested by as many people as possible, >>thank you, particularly if my life may depend on it. >Again, I'm not worried about you at your keyboard clicking away and offering opinions. >There's more to this than encryption. Take off the blinders, Mr. Smith: encyrption is just one >little piece of this puzzle. It comes down to psychology, far more than technology. I >appreciate your curiousity, your wish for totally open systems. In a perfect world, or even a >sane world, that would be ideal. I would love society to be filled with people like you who >believe in improving the state of the art, the pushing of the envelope, etc. >But you are not who I deal with every day. Unfortunately, just because you don't see these >folks, doesn't mean they are not there. They are not the ones with cutesy handles and who send >messages to usenets and such. It's the people off the radar screen, the one's that know better >than to go public. I've spent way too much time with these nutcases, and I assure you, Mr. >Smith, they are very real. >> In other words, go back to the drawing board and find something else to >>try to sound a tocsin over. >> -Allen >Open up your world, Mr. Smith. There is a whole parallel universe of garbage that exists with >yours. Whether or not you believe or understand that is frankly irrelevant to me or my work. >But hopefully this will open your eyes to the fact that this is not about evil governments, nor >military spookery, nor commercialization, nor fear of crackers. The next time I have to travel >to a bomb site, and as I try and figure out what cause could justify the death of someone who >just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, I will not be thinking of you in your >office lecturing me on the computer world. >Barry C. Collin Well you have artfully side-steped the issue with a rather self-indulgend tear jerker. The issue presented was that security by obsecurity DOES NOT WORK! If you are that conserned about stoping the dreaded "Cyberterrorest" then you should present your solutions in a open forum for peer review. Ofcource sense we are not part of your elite "counter-cyberterrorest" force I imagine that you do not consider anyone else your peer. Or could it be you inability to debate and defend your ideas in a public forum with those who have more experiance and better comprehention of the security issues we face at the dawn of the 21st century. Hiding away is closed groups disscussing solutions to "THE THREAT" where you are the only voice on security may be a big bost to your ego but does little to improve security on a significant scale. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->You're throwing it all out the Windows! From alano at teleport.com Thu Aug 29 02:53:35 1996 From: alano at teleport.com (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:53:35 +0800 Subject: DoJ is poking around Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960828235710.01192e4c@mail.teleport.com> At 08:21 PM 8/28/96 -0800, Adamsc wrote: >>> >looks like the DoJ have been looking around at the mirrors.. maybe to >>> >legally hassle people about them.... > >>> Or, just maybe, some DoJ employees wanted to see what folks on the outside >>> were doing to tweek their bosses:-)? Reminds me of the *thousands* of hits >>> the "Intel Secrets Page"(http://www.x86.org/) has gotten from users at >>> intel.com > >Out of curiosity, has anyone used a decompiler to check if any of the >undocumented stuff is getting used in shipping programs? I have not heard of anyone doing this with the Intel code, but I have seen info on the "Secret APIs of Bill" (Undocumented Windows API calls) being used in various programs. (For more info on this, check out "Undocumented Windows" by Schulman, Maxey, and Pietrek.) I am sure that the people who produce SoftIce could give you more info on this. (Either that or talk with whoever is doing the undocumented feature column for Dr. Dobbs.) --- Alan Olsen -- alano at teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano at teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises." From whgiii at amaranth.com Thu Aug 29 03:16:27 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:16:27 +0800 Subject: DoJ is poking around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608290802.DAA09847@mailhub.amaranth.com> In , on 08/28/96 at 11:32 PM, Alan Horowitz said: >I have a military account. Not all govt or military accounts belong to >black-helicopter pilots. Hey! Wern't ya the one who buzzed my trailer park while I was talking to Elvis the other night? :) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->How do you make Windows faster? Throw it harder! From rwright at adnetsol.com Thu Aug 29 03:33:42 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:33:42 +0800 Subject: In reference to comments made to me and to the Group Message-ID: <199608290752.AAA18432@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Sir, Please get a spell checker before you post any more thousand word flame-outs On Or About: 29 Aug 96, 0:05, William H. Geiger III wrote, jumping into a flame war before he learned how to spell polititions orginised, > campaines Prodistant Prodistant Palisinians > Unauthorised mistamener . mabye, mabye possiable > obsecurity conserned . Ofcource experiance comprehention big bost These are just a few of the spelling errors in a huge rant!!!!! =========== Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From whgiii at amaranth.com Thu Aug 29 05:41:29 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:41:29 +0800 Subject: Thoughts on CyberTerrorism {per request} In-Reply-To: <199608290618.XAA12301@mom.hooked.net> Message-ID: <199608291012.FAA10548@mailhub.amaranth.com> In <199608290618.XAA12301 at mom.hooked.net>, on 08/28/96 at 10:55 PM, "Institute for Security and Intelligence" said: My opinions on the topic of CyberTerrorism: The issue of cyberterrorism can be divided into 3 main parts: -What is the threat. -Who is the threat. -How to respond to the threat. What is the threat? =================== This can be subdivided into 3 classifications: Catastrophic Terrorist Attack ----------------------------- This type of attack results in the loss of life, or major disruption of society. Examples: - A cyberterrorist cause the major economic disruption by infiltrating international banking systems. - A cyberterrorist causes loss of life by infiltrating mass transit system. - Air Traffic Control - Train systems - Subway systems - A cyberterrorist causes loss of life/major economic disruption by infiltrating public utility systems. - Meltdown of Nuclear Power Station - Shutdown of Major Power Grids - Oil/Gas Spills - A cyberterrorist causes loss of life/major economic disruption by infiltrating military systems and gaining access to military weapons. Major Criminal Attack --------------------- This type of attack results in a financial loss or civil liberty infringement but is not of the scale of a Catastrophic Attack. Examples: - A criminal infiltrates a bank computer and illegally transfers funds. - A criminal obtains credit card information and uses fraudulently. - A criminal obtains personal information and uses illegally. - Blackmail - Job discrimination - credit denials - insurance denials Minor Hacker Attacks ---------------------- This type of attack results in little or no financial loss. Examples: - A hacker breaks into the DOJ webserver and changes the webpages. - A hacker breaks into a system and snoops around. - A hacker breaks into the school computer and changes his grades. Who is the Threat? ================== The CyberTerrorist ------------------ This is a sophisticated, well organized, State sponsored Terrorist. His goals are the same as any other terrorist. He wishes to reak havok on society to further his political agenda. The CyberTerrorist/Mad Scientist -------------------------------- Though his means are the same as the CyberTerrorist his goals are different. He is just a nutcase. Out for the thrill or for his 5min. of fame. The Computer Criminal --------------------- These will come in varying levels of sophistication and ability. They will range from the petty thief to the super-hacker that can hack banking systems. The Hacker ---------- Average age: 15-25 Above average intellegence. Basically he is in it for the challenge. To brake in a system no one else has broke into. For the most part harmless. How to Respond to the Threat? ============================= This all depends on which threat you are responding to. CyberTerrorist -------------- This one is a tough one. Outside of standard security measures including redundancy & isolation of critical systems the weakest link is going to be the personnel running the systems {what is known as an inside job}. Deterrents could play a BIG factor in this. If every time a country supported a terrorist attack we turned one of their cities into a glass bowl there would be allot less of this type of thing going on. This would not help with the true diehards/nutcases. Computer Criminal ----------------- The best way to defend against the computer criminal is information & training. System administrators must be aware of potential security risks to their systems. Software vendors should be open and forthcoming about security holes when they are found. End users should be familiar with what types of risks are involved when "on-line". - what type of information is covertly being gathered about them. {Thank-You NetScape} - what type of information should and should not be transmitted in the "open" - what is PGP, how to use it, when to use it. Every user should have a copy. The Hacker ---------- The same as above. If sys-admins are sloppy about security they have much more to worry about than some school kids pranks. Most of the Hackers activities are harmless and can be a mixed blessing in disguise to a sys-admin. A Hackers prank may awaken him to the sad shape of his security and move him to make changes before he gets hit by the Computer Criminal or Cyber Terrorist. Well that's my basic thoughts on the matter. I restrained from going too indepth as I did want to keep this under 1000 lines (bad spelling and all). :) I am willing to discuss this more indepth on a point by point basis. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->2.0 is better than 1; 3.0 is better than 2. From rp at rpini.com Thu Aug 29 05:43:02 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:43:02 +0800 Subject: In reference to comments made to me and to the Group Message-ID: <9608290955.AA28509@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com, whgiii at amaranth.com Date: Thu Aug 29 11:53:46 1996 I kind of like this valid discussion going on. PERIOD. But I believe that although there's something (maybe, maybe not) politicians (be they Protestant, Palestinians or from Dresden) might find a misdemeanor, one shouldn't boast with possible unwarranted encryption. No, seriously, your arguments tend to be belittled by your spelling. (Maybe you should get Pronto Secure, it has a spellchecker included) BTW, I don't get paid by Commtouch for writing that (SNIF!). A quick overview: beleive, politions, disscusion, orginised, sponcered, orginization, wekness, vailid, Dresdin, durring, expantion, Prodistant, Palisinians, unwarrented, PEROID, somthing, mistamener, mabye, mabye not, possiable, encyrption, disscussing, bost I hate teachers and people who show of with their spelling (and I'm a split personality). Yeah, me too. - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMiVoqxFhy5sz+bTpAQFYUgf/eu+dQvQALz7Of3DCWLoBWVICY2fmnDJB tQcHTNbuPXybjACVq8+LxdKT2wjXzuU401/rv4dW5+LgrMRlKMIhjx8xAIKSKBOg VBb2ruV9SG2/+sY0iYzJY1Dz4opf5c9aCLgN5ptM2LeWyWOtK71VtV8ASDaoGBP7 HIs9jVJ3sbyQaf8CPfR+pEQSjGLHCm8QshazSjPvuUdIRxB5f9Etpy+45vK4FVPP EXWYaN3jTBOPC24Qe8qGs+Dn/9C5ZR9y0Y2edv/XzWDZrdg951lSdQKxca4wtCbD nyKQ/R86wvfy65uwrBDzUSFupuA1M8TcF63ncybQ/316cHl8x/z0rA== =musf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From frissell at panix.com Thu Aug 29 05:46:39 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:46:39 +0800 Subject: There is no Agent Toby Tyler at the FBI [UK Observer Story] Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960829095805.00abc538@panix.com> At 03:17 PM 8/28/96 -0700, Richard Charles Graves wrote: >...two different sources, both of whom are anonymous because they work for >competing newspapers, tell me. > >Could someone else with contacts/time to kill/attributability please confirm >this? When I first saw the name, I remembered my misspent youth: Toby Tyler, or Ten Weeks with a Circus (1960) USA 1960 Color Produced by: Walt Disney Productions Genre/keyword: Children's / Drama Language: English Runtime: 96 Also Known As: Toby Tyler (1960) Directed by Charles Barton Cast (in alphabetical order) Henry Calvin Kevin Corcoran .... Toby Tyler James Drury Gene Sheldon Bob Sweeney Written by Lillie Hayward James Otis Kaler (novel) Bill Walsh DCF From whgiii at amaranth.com Thu Aug 29 05:55:01 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:55:01 +0800 Subject: In reference to comments made to me and to the Group In-Reply-To: <9608290955.AA28509@srzts100.alcatel.ch> Message-ID: <199608291022.FAA10662@mailhub.amaranth.com> In <9608290955.AA28509 at srzts100.alcatel.ch>, on 08/29/96 at 11:55 AM, Remo Pini said: >No, seriously, your arguments tend to be belittled by your spelling. (Maybe >you should get Pronto Secure, it has a spellchecker included) second message I received on this. :( Well, I ran the spell checker on my follow up posting. And on this one too. :) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- MR/2 Tag->DOS=HIGH? I knew it was on something... From frissell at panix.com Thu Aug 29 05:55:34 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:55:34 +0800 Subject: Simulations Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960829102802.00addc90@panix.com> At 10:05 PM 8/28/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >To me, the most obvious one is GIGO: Simulations, especially >political/social ones, might depend heavily on assumptions that are >programmed into them. A trivial, yet interesting example is the computer >game "Sim City" which allowed you to adjust the "tax rate" but problems >always cropped up the further away you were from 7%. The libertarians were >frustrated that we were unable to drop the tax rate and still get a >well-functioning, happy society. I was taking economics back in the Armonk Iron days and we played around with an economic simulation program written in Fortran. One was supposed to adjust government spending and taxes to find an optimum level. I set both taxes and spending to zero. We got a lot of economic growth and a lot of inflation (this was not a monetarist simulation). But we were happier. DCF From ben at edelweb.fr Thu Aug 29 06:35:17 1996 From: ben at edelweb.fr (Ben) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:35:17 +0800 Subject: Real or Not ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Unless of course the program you're using to view the disassembled > instructions has also been altered by the TriLats. And make sure you use > any pre-1992 compiler on a pre-1992 operating system on a computer that's > not hooked up to the Net or even located where NSA agents can get to it. For what its worth I have a copy of DOS 3.3 running Borland Turbo C 1.0 with the original Turbo Debugger/Assembler on an IBM Model 30 that has never been hooked up to the Net. Any takers? :) Ben. ____ Ben Samman.................................................ben at edelweb.fr Paris, France Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator From MrAdvent at aol.com Thu Aug 29 07:19:44 1996 From: MrAdvent at aol.com (MrAdvent at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 22:19:44 +0800 Subject: Desubscribe Message-ID: <960829074816_512217624@emout15.mail.aol.com> I would like you to desubscribe me from you mailing list From enzo at ima.com Thu Aug 29 07:25:44 1996 From: enzo at ima.com (Enzo Michelangeli) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 22:25:44 +0800 Subject: Mimic Function Stego Programs? In-Reply-To: <199608282111.RAA17052@cbig1.att.att.com> Message-ID: If sociobabble (as opposed to manager babble) can do, try with the Dada Engine shown at http://www.cs.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/postmodern and replace the PRNG with cyphertext. The kleptocrats will probably invite the sender to hold a seminar :-) Enzo On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 stewarts at ix.netcom.com wrote: > Does anybody have a stego program along the lines of Peter Wayner's > Mimic Functions? I'm looking for something that you can hand a grammar > and a set of bits that will produce sentences in the grammar, > plus a decoder that can take the sentences and reconstruct the bits. > I have a friend who lives in a kleptocratic country where the local > bureaucrats have made it clear they'll confiscate the main email node > in his town if they catch traffic they recognize as encrypted, > and text in some non-popular language may be less obvious than, say, > Mandelbrot sets with stego-bits or other artwork. > > > ----- > PHB would work ok... > http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert960821-9577.gif > ----- > > > # Thanks; Bill > # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com > # Reassign Authority! > From johnhemming at mkn.co.uk Thu Aug 29 08:24:38 1996 From: johnhemming at mkn.co.uk (John Hemming - CEO MarketNet) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:24:38 +0800 Subject: Hmmm MSIE V2.0 Message-ID: <1996-Aug29-122751.1> It seems to be that MSIE V2.0 transmits its data in the clear once it has transmitted the client hello and received the server hello SSL records in some limited circumstance or other. I don't know how widely this bug exists. Neither do I know which versions other than the French one has it. However, if you point your version of MSIE at https://beta.mkn.co.uk/help/system/msie and it indicates that the client has encryption problems. Then you have that problem as well. I would watch this one. Anyone feeling like tracing the packets will find it easier to crack than 2 bit SSL. (let alone 40 bit or 128 bit). Any thoughts? From pstira at escape.com Thu Aug 29 08:54:33 1996 From: pstira at escape.com (pstira at escape.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:54:33 +0800 Subject: A _REALLY_ Interesting Bet -[parallels]- In-Reply-To: <199608290229.TAA10523@mycroft.rand.org> Message-ID: Am I the only one who is seeing more and more parallels to Brunner's book "The Shockwave Rider" in the world? I thought we were getting close enough, but this clinches it. Welcome to the Delphi Oracle. Enjoy your stay. Milie sfuze at tiac.net From qut at netcom.com Thu Aug 29 09:11:31 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:11:31 +0800 Subject: Hayek (was: Cato Institute conference on Net-regulation) In-Reply-To: <8a0DTD20w165w@bwalk.dm.com> Message-ID: <199608291251.FAA28208@netcom9.netcom.com> ! Senile tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) (fart) rants: ! ! > At 4:26 AM 8/28/96, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: ! > >Senile tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) rants: ! > >> Indeed, Hayek has had a _lot_ to do with the Cypherpunks! From "The Road t ! > >> Serfdom" to "Law, Legislation, and Liberty," his works have exerted a ! > >> profound influence on me, and on many others. ! > > ! > >But he's fucking unreadable. I plan to teach economic this semester and ! > >make every student read Hazlitt (economics in 1 lesson). I can't force them ! > >to read hayek (or Rothbard) because they're fucking unreadable. Shit. ! > ! > Well, to one who inserts "(spit)" after nearly every name he cites, and ! > critiques Hayek as "fucking unreadable. Shit.," I suppose Hayek must indeed ! > seem unreadable. Shit. ! ! Are you jealous, Tim )fart)? You're just a senile old fart, not worth my ! spittle. I make you feel better I'll put (fart) after you stupid name. Shit. ! ! > After all, Hayek rarely writes things like: "The senile Von Mises (spit) ! > and his Sovok Cabal plotters...." ! ! Senile Tim May (fart) exposes himself as a liar by attributing to me shit ! I've never said (Pidor Vorobiev's forgeries). Please stop polluting this ! mailing list with your lies and personal attacks. ! ! > As to "forcing" your students to read Hayek, just who is in charge? If ! > you're the instructor, they can choose to read what you tell them to read, ! > or be unprepared on the exams you give and possibly flunk the class. What ! > part of "Required Reading" do you or your students not understand? ! ! It's been many years since Tim May (spit) has been to college, hasn't it? ! I don't blackmail my students into doing the work they don't want to do ! by blackmailing them with grades. When I taught comp.sec., I said from the ! start that everyone gets an A, and I trust tgen to be motivated enough to ! read everything I _suggest_ they read. And they all did a great job and ! earn3d their A's. ! ! Senile Tim May (fart) is a fucking statist asshole. ! ! Fuck you and fuck your criminal Arm*nian grandparents. ! ! --- ! ! Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM ! Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps Fuckhead. From trei at process.com Thu Aug 29 09:11:37 1996 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:11:37 +0800 Subject: There is no Agent Toby Tyler at the FBI [UK Observer St Message-ID: <199608291312.GAA18305@toad.com> Duncan Frissell writes: > At 03:17 PM 8/28/96 -0700, Richard Charles Graves wrote: > >...two different sources, both of whom are anonymous because they work for > >competing newspapers, tell me. > > > >Could someone else with contacts/time to kill/attributability please confirm > >this? > > When I first saw the name, I remembered my misspent youth: > Toby Tyler, or Ten Weeks with a Circus (1960) > USA 1960 Color > Produced by Walt Disney Productions Which proves little (though it is suggestive). People get names for a variety of reasons, and before 1960, there would have been little reason *not* to use the name. Back in the 70's I remember hearing many reports from a news announcer at the BBC World Service named Dick Tracy. Peter Trei trei at process.com From johnhemming at mkn.co.uk Thu Aug 29 09:19:13 1996 From: johnhemming at mkn.co.uk (John Hemming - CEO MarketNet) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:19:13 +0800 Subject: MSIE cryptography Message-ID: <1996-Aug29-132502.1> Just downloaded the most recent English Version 2.1 for Windows 3.1. This does appear to do the same in terms of no encryption at all after the server hello. To be fair to Microsoft the number of cycles performed for the private key echange is quite high. Therefore, not having any key and not doing the RSA calculations makes the access quite a bit faster. The older versions (and some Win95 versions) that we have found around seem to just crash our server. I am not really feeling like debugging that. From rp at rpini.com Thu Aug 29 09:52:04 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:52:04 +0800 Subject: Thoughts on CyberTerrorism {per request} Message-ID: <9608291347.AA06964@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: whgiii at amaranth.com, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Thu Aug 29 15:45:06 1996 > The issue of cyberterrorism can be divided into 3 main parts: > Catastrophic Terrorist Attack > Major Criminal Attack > Minor Hacker Attacks > The CyberTerrorist > The CyberTerrorist/Mad Scientist > The Computer Criminal > The Hacker It seems that you have a very broad view as to what constitutes terrorism. According to you, somebody who hacks into a system is a cyberterrorist. It seems, that would make a burglar a real life terrorist, too. So, to state my point: you use the word cyberterrorism in conjunction with ALL possible attacks on a system. Did I get that definition right? If not, why not? Greetings, Remo Pini - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMiWe5BFhy5sz+bTpAQGf5gf+L6Mkx4rqvdvsWe84j2TzLYaeOpbO7VCe S1Ia3EC9rByfXK71zmDCWRd7bTdmRULq297dD/Aqr7KWSEEtsBpQCLs8tGiPCV3I S+M613ud6Uy9QXtIyw14Ao7XILijWUDU2Hdwb5xfmJ/GIIQiZyDjMVLDXABM7rgb 4d+5AP+gh6VTRNqd2LmhwcvhUoupeJ40QxlRyOJ2A4ZNT7xaS7shUPnbS5kcuSrF z27nRmnaPkRmh3VD870OIoTRsWUOIQ9lwUkXrPdly9w8E23FyuXGPEMkW+KdUCNZ 6hI7YYsBnCJjM+aUzq3Ypt/N/iUcbPvKO4T+FtbKJHB15IbtDTUr4A== =pg+4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From OSBORRI at msmail.northgrum.com Thu Aug 29 10:00:02 1996 From: OSBORRI at msmail.northgrum.com (Osborne, Rick) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:00:02 +0800 Subject: Realtime Keyserver update Message-ID: <3225A380@smtpmmp2.northgrum.com> First off, let me say thank you to all of those who responded to my first message, I gained alot of useful information. Mark Rogaski and I have decided to write up a RFC on it and are going through the initial stages of deciding on its functionality. We would appreciate any and all useful input on the subject. All ideas are welcome. You can email my autoresponder (at this same address) to get the latest information on what we've decided. Just make the subject GET KEYSERVER INFO for the response. Thank you for your interest and help. Rick Osborne From root at HellSpawn Thu Aug 29 10:00:39 1996 From: root at HellSpawn (Damien Lucifer) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:00:39 +0800 Subject: List owner named in law suit (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:52:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Clay Irving Subject: List owner named in law suit I can't believe this one! Peter Laws, a recent graduate of the University of Arkansas, maintains an electronic mailing list called "SCAN-L". The list is provided for radio scanning enthusiasts. There are a few hundred subscribers to the list. Recently, in a thread about scanning publications, an employee of publication "A" apparently wrote something to offend someone at publication "B". Lo and behold, next thing you know, Peter is named in a lawsuit because he is the maintainer of the list. Something seems very, very wrong with this. I've never heard of anything like this before. Can a Email list maintainer be held liable for something someone else writes? Peter *just* graduated, and he needs all the help he can get. Thanks, in advance. -- Clay Irving N2VKG clay at panix.com http://www.panix.com/~clay/ From trei at process.com Thu Aug 29 10:17:22 1996 From: trei at process.com (Peter Trei) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:17:22 +0800 Subject: MSIE cryptography Message-ID: <199608291427.HAA18951@toad.com> John Hemming - CEO MarketNet" writes: > Just downloaded the most recent English Version 2.1 for Windows 3.1. > This does appear to do the same in terms of no encryption at all after > the server hello. > > To be fair to Microsoft the number of cycles performed for the private key > echange is quite high. Therefore, not having any key and not doing the > RSA calculations makes the access quite a bit faster. > > The older versions (and some Win95 versions) that we have found around > seem to just crash our server. I am not really feeling like debugging that. I understand that some versions of MSIE support SSL level 3. SSL3 includes a capability to switch 'cipher suites' in mid-session, or pick one at the start of the session. One of the standard cipher suites performs authentication, but not encryption. This is consistant with your description. Please ensure that the server you are connecting to is not configured for authenticate-only. It would be a pity to raise a big ruckus over what may be just a mis-configured server. Peter Trei trei at process.com From reagle at rpcp.mit.edu Thu Aug 29 10:33:55 1996 From: reagle at rpcp.mit.edu (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:33:55 +0800 Subject: Small German bank claims first with online service Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960829141734.00746308@206.33.128.129> > FRANKFURT, Aug 28 (Reuter) - German private bank Gries & >Heissel Bankiers on Wednesday launched an Internet banking >service -- the first comprehensive service of its kind in a >country where online bank options are gradually taking off. > The small Berlin-based bank linked up with U.S. computer >firm Hewlett Packard Co to develop the system, which Internet >users can access using a high-security personal code. > Clients will be able to view detailed balances on their >deposit, current and securities accounts and transact all normal >banking business on the World Wide Web. > Although online banking is a developing trend on the German >financial services market, larger banks with far broader >customer bases are working on more selective Internet packages. > Thomas Gries, one of Gries & Heissel's personally-liable >directors, said he regarded Internet banking as a logical >supplement to the bank's existing services. > ``We have had an Internet home page since October 1995. This >move from a pure information medium to an interactive one was a >logical one,'' Gries said. > Banking officials attending the CEBIT electronics conference >in Hanover this week said German online banking business was >poised to grow dramatically. > ``In the next six months, five to ten German banks will be on >the Internet,'' said Stefan Schoeller, board member at Bayerische >Vereinsbank AG unit Vereins- und West Bank. > Vereinsbank plans to launch Internet services within about >six months via its Advance Bank direct unit, pending a review of >security options. > Rival discount broker Direkt Anlage Bank, a unit of >Bayerische Hypotheken- und Wechsel Bank AG, on Tuesday launched >an Internet service for its securities account holders at half >the cost of its telephone banking service. > Meanwhile market leader Deutsche Bank AG is to test >electronic cash on the Internet this autumn in a joint >initiative with Dutch electronic payments group Digicash NV. > Vereinsbank officials at CEBIT said they planned a steady >expansion of the bank's online options over the coming years, >predicting 10 to 15 percent of its current account clients would >be online by the year 2000. Around 12 million Germans would rely >on home banking by that date, the bank predicted. > At the moment, around 3.7 percent of the bank's clients, or >45,000 individuals, handle their banking via PC alone, Stefan >Schoeller said. > Hewlett-Packard's German sales manager Michael Lindner said >his company, which last year helped set up the world's first >Internet bank, Security First Network Bank, had spoken to >several other German banks about some kind of Internet venture. > ``We certainly do not plan to limit our involvement to a >small exclusive bank,'' he said. > Lindner said there were about two million Internet users in >Germany and 35 million worldwide. He admitted that the amount of >bank business transacted on the Net -- about $200 million -- was >``very limited'' but predicted a dramatic rise in volume. > Vereinsbank's Schoeller said the cost advantage alone made >it worthwhile for customers to go online. A normal current >account incurred charges of 8.40 marks a month, while the same >account online would cost just 5.40 marks, he said. > All banks are stressing the security of the Internet. > > > _______________________ Regards, Boredom is the feeling that everything is a waste of time; serenity, that nothing is. -Thomas Szasz Joseph Reagle http://rpcp.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle at mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E From adam at homeport.org Thu Aug 29 10:35:22 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:35:22 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608271620.LAA10933@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <199608291548.KAA07041@homeport.org> Igor, and many others who commented on the fact that many characters are legal in email are correct. However, with the exception of '-' and '+', I'm not sure if I'll be changing the body of the guidelines. My issue is that dealing with a wide variety of characters that are legitamate, such as "cat ../../../etc/passwd"@foo.com is more dangerous than only accepting the common case of user at host.net. The number of addresses such as harvard!adam is dropping as the number of 'normal' addresses grows. Igor Chudov @ home wrote: | Adam Shostack wrote: | > http://www.homeport.org/~adam/review.html | In part " V.Code (Security Issues)/3.Data Checking" you say the following: | | `` Data coming in to Acme Widgets should be checked very carefully for | appropriateness. This check should be to see if the data is what | is expected (length, characters). Making a list of bad | characters is not the way to go; the lists are rarely complete. | A secure program should know what it expects, and reject other | input. (For example, if you are looking for an email address, | don't check to see if it contains a semi-colon or a newline, | check to see if it contains anything other than a [A-Za-z0-9._] | followed by an @, followed by a hostname [A-Za-z0-9._].)'' | END QUOTE | | That is not entirely correct. An email address is much more than | that, it can contain "!", several "@" characters (not next to each other | though), "%", and so on. x400 mail addresses (?) can contain "/", "=", | and all emails can have "+" and "-" and "_" in them. | | Some of the valid email addresses are | | user_name at company.com | alex+ at pitt.edu | mi%aldan.UUCP at algebra.com | user%host.domain at anon.penet.fi | host1!host2!user | | Look at your sendmail.cf file for a humongous amount of | email parsing rules. | | Thanks for an excellent document though, I put a link to it from my | intranet page. You're welcome. | - Igor "Code Obscurity Creates Job Security" Chudov. | Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From perry at piermont.com Thu Aug 29 10:36:13 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:36:13 +0800 Subject: Desubscribe In-Reply-To: <960829074816_512217624@emout15.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199608291436.KAA02444@jekyll.piermont.com> MrAdvent at aol.com writes: > I would like you to desubscribe me from you mailing list I refuse. .pm From johnhemming at mkn.co.uk Thu Aug 29 11:00:15 1996 From: johnhemming at mkn.co.uk (John Hemming - CEO MarketNet) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:00:15 +0800 Subject: MSIE cryptography Message-ID: <1996-Aug29-150212.1> >> Just downloaded the most recent English Version 2.1 for Windows 3.1. >> This does appear to do the same in terms of no encryption at all after >> the server hello. >I understand that some versions of MSIE support SSL level 3. SSL3 includes a >capability to switch 'cipher suites' in mid-session, or pick one at the start of the >session. One of the standard cipher suites performs authentication, but not >encryption. This is consistant with your description. >Please ensure that the server you are connecting to is not configured for >authenticate-only. It would be a pity to raise a big ruckus over what may be >just a mis-configured server. The server is one which interoperates correctly with Netscape and my own routines. It does strike me that this change is potentially the source of the bug. However, to have a "locked" symbol on the bottom right hand of the display would indicate to me as a user that a secure session has occurred. For SSL devotees the records sent are: 1. Client hello (from the client) 2. Server hello (from the server). 3. Plaintext data packaged up in SSL records from the client. 4. The client then accepts plaintext data packaged up in SSL records. SERVER_VERSION_MSB and SERVER_VERSION_LSB indicate version 2 of SSL. I have not changed the code in any way to deal with version 3 of SSL making I think the valid presumption that browsers using 3 and 2 should be able to cope with a server using 2. I shall reboot my system, trace a bit of a session and post that. From johnhemming at mkn.co.uk Thu Aug 29 11:14:30 1996 From: johnhemming at mkn.co.uk (John Hemming - CEO MarketNet) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:14:30 +0800 Subject: MSIE cryptography Message-ID: <1996-Aug29-152004.1> For the real SSL devotees here are the first three transmissions. Client Hello 16.8 1025->443 seq 00000001 ack 00000001 PSH ACK wind 4096 data 30 80 1C 01 00 02 00 03 00 00 00 10 02 00 80 69 AE 0E F0 FA 2E 01 63 BC 59 AF 0F 1C C1 B1 7B 16.8 443->1025 seq 00000001 ack 0000001F PSH ACK wind 5640 data 590 Server Hello 82 4C 04 00 01 00 02 02 2E 00 03 00 10 (cert starts) 30 82 02 2A 30 82 01 93 02 05 26 FB 85 54 3F 30 0D 06 09 big snip of server hello (of the certificate) CC 1F BC A8 9C D7 47 41 D2 33 27 (cert has ended) 02 00 80 4A E7 13 36 E4 4B F9 BF 79 D2 75 2E 23 48 18 A5 16.9 1025->443 seq 0000001F ack 0000024F PSH ACK wind 4096 data 333 Client Master Key should be here, but instead we get 81 4B 47 45 54 20 2F 20 48 54 54 50 2F 31 2E 30 G E T sp / sp H T T P / 1 . 0 0D 0A 41 63 63 65 70 74 3A 20 2A 2F 2A 2C 20 71 Server Hello 82 4C 04 00 01 00 02 02 2E 00 03 00 10 (cert starts) 30 82 02 82 4C - SSL RECORD 04 - Server Hello 00 - Session ID Hit (no prior session) 01 - Certificate Type 00 - Server Version MSB 02 - Server Verson LSB (ie server version of SSL is 2) 02 2E - Certificate length (mainly snipped) 00 03 - Cipher specs length 00 10 - Connection ID length I think the probability is that the unusual circumstance that causes what seems clear to me as an error is that the cert is signed by a CA other than Verisign. Essentially, however, I do not think it is right for a program to display a locked key regardless of any other issues if the data being transferred is not encrypted. From adam at homeport.org Thu Aug 29 11:23:57 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:23:57 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608291601.LAA07092@homeport.org> Bernd Eckenfels wrote: | > Much better, look at rfc822. (I wouldn't consider *anything* that | > has the word "sendmail" in it a good reference). | | its much better if you dont rely on the content of the string at all. Dont | use sh -c or system and you will be save. Simply asume that all characters | are valid in user suplied strings and treat them exactly that way... If they | need to be exporeted then unfortunately they need to be 'untainted' and this | should be done by positive not negative lists as mentioned in the | guidelines. Not passing untainted data to system is clearly a very good idea. Less clear is how much other parsing should be done. I like extreme parsing (when its cheap; as Marcus Watts pointed out, verifying remote hostnames & usernames can be expensive). If you don't strongly verify data on the way in, it can get to other places not so careful about its contents. This is why I chose to recommend against accepting a wide variety of legit email address formats; because they will be passed back to a database that assumes that the addresses have been sanitized, and are in user at foo.net format, and not treat them with the care they deserve. In an ideal world, programmers would be careful with the data they get, but we don't live in an ideal world. I choose to suggest paranoia over inclusiveness, but am adding an appendix discussing issues of mail addressing. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From Robb at SpeakOut.org Thu Aug 29 11:37:08 1996 From: Robb at SpeakOut.org (Robb Hill) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:37:08 +0800 Subject: Stego Virus Message-ID: For a virus (a program) embedded in a .gif file to affect you, it would have to unsteg and then run. Just dont run it it you unsteg it. Robb Hill National Association for Home Care 228 7th Street SE Washington DC 20003 202-547-7424 202-547-9312 fax robb at speakout.org From adam at homeport.org Thu Aug 29 11:43:31 1996 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:43:31 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608291458.JAA28369@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <199608291624.LAA07221@homeport.org> Igor Chudov @ home wrote: | The decision that have just made is not a technical decision, it is | a business decision. You just decided that the needs of security | outweight the need to be able to deal with 100% of potential customers. You're mostly right. (I happen to know that we're expecting all customers to have IP based connectivity for the suite of applications these guidelines are being written for, but you're right that this is a business decision). | For example, suppose that you wrote your report for Gizmo International, | a company that sells a variety of widgets and gadgets to users in the | world. Their current setup is that the users can visit www.gizmo.com | and ask the server to send them notifications about new products. | | Based on your report's suggestions, Gizmo will have to cut off | all users with x.400 mail addresses, all UUCP users with bangs in their | addresses, all people with funky addresses provided by SPRINT, | and so on. For example, my moderation bot received a message | from the following person: | | From: /G=JAMBYL/S=KIWANIS/O=CUSTOMER/ADMD=KAZMAIL/C=KZ/@gateway.sprint.com | | (my eyes just popped when I saw such address) | | There are a lot of international people using this sprint gateway. | | This would potentially represent a loss of s significant number of | customers who will be bitching about gizmo.com to all their friends. | This is a bad decision from the marketing standpoint. | | I see this as a compelling reason to allow all possible email addresses | to be processed correctly, even if it means that there is more work | for code proofreading. At least the management responsible for | marketing must understand and approve your email handling guidelines. A | computer programmer cannot make such decisions himself. You're again correct; the document is undergoing review internally. May I have permission to quote you? I'm a big advocate of open debate when things are in a draft stage. Also, there are issues of what happens if an unusual address gets past the firewall and mishandled by some legacy code. Adam | igor | | | Adam Shostack wrote: | > | > Igor, and many others who commented on the fact that many characters | > are legal in email are correct. However, with the exception of '-' | > and '+', I'm not sure if I'll be changing the body of the guidelines. | > My issue is that dealing with a wide variety of characters that are | > legitamate, such as "cat ../../../etc/passwd"@foo.com is more | > dangerous than only accepting the common case of user at host.net. | > | > The number of addresses such as harvard!adam is dropping as the number | > of 'normal' addresses grows. | > | > | > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: | > | Adam Shostack wrote: | > | > http://www.homeport.org/~adam/review.html | > | > | In part " V.Code (Security Issues)/3.Data Checking" you say the following: | > | | > | `` Data coming in to Acme Widgets should be checked very carefully for | > | appropriateness. This check should be to see if the data is what | > | is expected (length, characters). Making a list of bad | > | characters is not the way to go; the lists are rarely complete. | > | A secure program should know what it expects, and reject other | > | input. (For example, if you are looking for an email address, | > | don't check to see if it contains a semi-colon or a newline, | > | check to see if it contains anything other than a [A-Za-z0-9._] | > | followed by an @, followed by a hostname [A-Za-z0-9._].)'' | > | END QUOTE | > | | > | That is not entirely correct. An email address is much more than | > | that, it can contain "!", several "@" characters (not next to each other | > | though), "%", and so on. x400 mail addresses (?) can contain "/", "=", | > | and all emails can have "+" and "-" and "_" in them. | > | | > | Some of the valid email addresses are | > | | > | user_name at company.com | > | alex+ at pitt.edu | > | mi%aldan.UUCP at algebra.com | > | user%host.domain at anon.penet.fi | > | host1!host2!user | > | | > | Look at your sendmail.cf file for a humongous amount of | > | email parsing rules. | > | | > | Thanks for an excellent document though, I put a link to it from my | > | intranet page. | > | > You're welcome. | > | > | - Igor "Code Obscurity Creates Job Security" Chudov. | > | | > | > Adam | > | > -- | > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." | > -Hume | > | | | | - Igor. | -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From robbhill at southwestpaper.com Thu Aug 29 11:44:49 1996 From: robbhill at southwestpaper.com (Robb Hill) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:44:49 +0800 Subject: see you guys later Message-ID: This list used to focus on privacy issues, crypto protocols, algorithms, national crypto policy, etc. I saw the Netscape cracks announced here, I saw squeamish ossifrage here, now I see nothing of the sort. Now I see that people are discussing heckling the pres., black helicopters???. I have heard Phil Zimmerman frequently call Paul Zimmerman. See you guys later. Robb Hill National Association for Home Care 228 7th Street SE Washington DC 20003 202-547-7424 202-547-9312 fax robb at speakout.org From ericm at lne.com Thu Aug 29 11:54:34 1996 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:54:34 +0800 Subject: MSIE cryptography In-Reply-To: <199608291427.HAA18951@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608291536.IAA31494@slack.lne.com> Peter Trei writes: > > John Hemming - CEO MarketNet" writes: > > > Just downloaded the most recent English Version 2.1 for Windows 3.1. > > This does appear to do the same in terms of no encryption at all after > > the server hello. [..] > I understand that some versions of MSIE support SSL level 3. SSL3 includes a > capability to switch 'cipher suites' in mid-session, or pick one at the start of the > session. One of the standard cipher suites performs authentication, but not > encryption. This is consistant with your description. > > Please ensure that the server you are connecting to is not configured for > authenticate-only. It would be a pity to raise a big ruckus over what may be > just a mis-configured server. In addition, encryption isn't performed until after the ClientFinished and ServerFinished messages, no matter which CipherSuites are negotiated. I don't know what MSIE looks like, but I'd guess that somewhere in it there is a screen similar to Netscape's for configuring SSL. In Netscape you can select which CipherSuites to use, including "No encryption with an MD5 MAC". If you turn off the "No encryption.." CipherSuites in MSIE, you should get an encrypted connection. -- Eric Murray ericm at lne.com ericm at motorcycle.com http://www.lne.com/ericm PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Aug 29 11:55:56 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:55:56 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608291548.KAA07041@homeport.org> Message-ID: <199608291458.JAA28369@manifold.algebra.com> Adam, The decision that have just made is not a technical decision, it is a business decision. You just decided that the needs of security outweight the need to be able to deal with 100% of potential customers. For example, suppose that you wrote your report for Gizmo International, a company that sells a variety of widgets and gadgets to users in the world. Their current setup is that the users can visit www.gizmo.com and ask the server to send them notifications about new products. Based on your report's suggestions, Gizmo will have to cut off all users with x.400 mail addresses, all UUCP users with bangs in their addresses, all people with funky addresses provided by SPRINT, and so on. For example, my moderation bot received a message from the following person: From: /G=JAMBYL/S=KIWANIS/O=CUSTOMER/ADMD=KAZMAIL/C=KZ/@gateway.sprint.com (my eyes just popped when I saw such address) There are a lot of international people using this sprint gateway. This would potentially represent a loss of s significant number of customers who will be bitching about gizmo.com to all their friends. This is a bad decision from the marketing standpoint. I see this as a compelling reason to allow all possible email addresses to be processed correctly, even if it means that there is more work for code proofreading. At least the management responsible for marketing must understand and approve your email handling guidelines. A computer programmer cannot make such decisions himself. igor Adam Shostack wrote: > > Igor, and many others who commented on the fact that many characters > are legal in email are correct. However, with the exception of '-' > and '+', I'm not sure if I'll be changing the body of the guidelines. > My issue is that dealing with a wide variety of characters that are > legitamate, such as "cat ../../../etc/passwd"@foo.com is more > dangerous than only accepting the common case of user at host.net. > > The number of addresses such as harvard!adam is dropping as the number > of 'normal' addresses grows. > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > | Adam Shostack wrote: > | > http://www.homeport.org/~adam/review.html > > | In part " V.Code (Security Issues)/3.Data Checking" you say the following: > | > | `` Data coming in to Acme Widgets should be checked very carefully for > | appropriateness. This check should be to see if the data is what > | is expected (length, characters). Making a list of bad > | characters is not the way to go; the lists are rarely complete. > | A secure program should know what it expects, and reject other > | input. (For example, if you are looking for an email address, > | don't check to see if it contains a semi-colon or a newline, > | check to see if it contains anything other than a [A-Za-z0-9._] > | followed by an @, followed by a hostname [A-Za-z0-9._].)'' > | END QUOTE > | > | That is not entirely correct. An email address is much more than > | that, it can contain "!", several "@" characters (not next to each other > | though), "%", and so on. x400 mail addresses (?) can contain "/", "=", > | and all emails can have "+" and "-" and "_" in them. > | > | Some of the valid email addresses are > | > | user_name at company.com > | alex+ at pitt.edu > | mi%aldan.UUCP at algebra.com > | user%host.domain at anon.penet.fi > | host1!host2!user > | > | Look at your sendmail.cf file for a humongous amount of > | email parsing rules. > | > | Thanks for an excellent document though, I put a link to it from my > | intranet page. > > You're welcome. > > | - Igor "Code Obscurity Creates Job Security" Chudov. > | > > Adam > > -- > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." > -Hume > - Igor. From qut at netcom.com Thu Aug 29 12:24:58 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 03:24:58 +0800 Subject: Anti-Racist Laws Stifle Political Liberty Message-ID: <199608291601.JAA14884@netcom9.netcom.com> llurch at stanford.edu (Rich Graves) writes: > Incidentally, [don't college speech codes] belong in the past > tense? Stanford hardly lifted a finger to defend the Grey > Amendment, which was designed and widely regarded to be the most > carefully tailored speech code around. I don't know of any > universities that have tried to enact a speech code since. The > attempt would be futile. (Background: Grey applied only to > "fighting words" directed at individuals. It was fine, under the > [overturned] Stanford policy [which I voted against], to create a > "hostile environment" by screaming hostile verbiage at nobody in > particular; but you couldn't say the same thing to someone's face.) The mere lack of enforcement of an unjust law does not justify the continued extancy of that law. That very "dead letter" law can be fired up at any time to harass critics of the university's anti-racist administration. Some examples of dangerous dead letter laws: * Abortion Most people presume that abortion is legal in the USA, wrong. Most states make abortion very illegal, our whole abortion freedom as currently exists rests entirely on a few federal court decisions. If the previous Supreme Court decisions are overturned, most states will suddenly start enforcing their fascist anti-abortion laws. * Hate Crime Denmark used to be presumed by racists to be the only country in Europe where racism was legal. Denmark's anti-racist laws were not enforced in ages. Yet, the anti-racist laws sprung into action to persecute Gerhard Lauck, an American Nazi who desired to move to Denmark on the account of a provocateur that his organization would not be harrassed in Denmark. Mr. Lauck was deported to Germany where he was sentenced to four years in prison to the outrage of professional anti-racists of the "moderation" of his punishment for merely speaking in pro-Nazi terms in Germany, where politics that challenge the ruling order is strictly illegal. * Racism In Other Countries Racist politics are explicitly illegal in every "white country" in the world except, so far, the USA. The mere lack of enforcement in many of the countries such as South Africa, Canada, Denmark, Russian Federation, Malaysia, Australia, etc., does not exonerate that country from the charge of censorship as political intrigue. * "We Will Take Power" A lot of fake anti-censorship activists insist they are for free speech in the sense of allowing such political purposes as "we don't like your policies and we want you to change," but desiring to make illegal such political goals as "we don't like your power and we're going to try to take it away from you." Yet there is no purpose, no purpose whatsoever in political speech, if there is no threat allowed to the ruling order expressed in idealogical terms and organizational forms. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine and all the nationalist founders of the American nation would approve of radicals organizing and expressing their goals of seizing power legally, or if denied the means of a republic for succession, illegally. * Unfree Nations Germany is an example of a nation that prohibits any type of Nazi political party. Therefore, Germany is not a free country, not an honest republic, in fact, less free even than Wilhelmian Germany in allowing radical parties to challenge the power structure. -- I marvel at the resilience of the white people. Their best characteristic is their desire to learn. No other people has such an obsession with the intellect. From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 29 13:20:55 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 04:20:55 +0800 Subject: MUD anyone? Message-ID: I second many of the comments about the difficulties in coding a reasonably plausible game or MUD for exploring list ideas. Just about four years ago exactly, at the first meeting of what was to become the Cypherpunks group, we "played" the "Crypto Anarchy Game." Based solely on paper tokens, like Monopoly, the idea was to introduce people to concepts like digital money, anonymous remailers, information markets, and so on. Sealed envelopes represented remailed messages, with "mixing" done by hand. Lots of imperfections, lots of stalls and dead ends, lots of confusion. Protocols were imperfectly enforced, messages got lost (literally "dropped on the floor"), and the game eventually ended in laughter, confusion, and silliness. But it was deemed useful by most present, as it made more real the abstractions talked about in the morning session. Coding nearly any of the core cryptographic concepts for use in an online game, even without a real crypto core (e.g., using other trust mechanisms) is likely to be almost as big a job as actually coding the concepts for real-world use. Could be very educational, and a useful dry run for later real-world reification of concepts, but by no means easy. I'm not trying to discourage anyone. Go for it! But it's a _big_ project. And as Jim Bell noted, there are all sorts of costs which are not properly accounted for. I would not, for example, expect anything interesting to emerge out of the simulation of "assassination politics" in such a game, as the costs, dangers, moral issues, and whatnot are not properly accounted-for in such a MUD-type simulation. (No more so than in a fantasy role-playing game, where characters die routinely...) And as a last note, we had a couple of "hits" bought anonymously back then, during the game, in '92. (Hint: One doesn't need a Bell-style infrastructure for bidding on the death of politicians to raise the money for a hit....many interested parties would surely pay the $5000 (or less, say some) to buy a hit if the risks were lowered. And to paraphrase Bell, "I know a way to lower the risks.") --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu Thu Aug 29 13:21:28 1996 From: nobody at zifi.genetics.utah.edu (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 04:21:28 +0800 Subject: A _REALLY_ Interesting Bet [2] Message-ID: <199608291709.LAA07068@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Jim Gillogly wrote: >Idea Futures is dead, and the torch has passed to Foresight Exchange (FX), >which is at http://www.ideosphere.com/ideosphere/ . You can bet on a number >of political issues (US and other), though not (yet) for real money. IMO, a good cypherpunk goal would be to get that "yet" in, with Chaum's Digicash, before the election. Perhaps Mr. Cate has some ideas in this regard...;) When talking to lawyers one finds the justification for the prohibition to be something like, "it would demean the process." IMNSHO, the nest has already been soiled, and the only effect would be to kill the unwanted phonecalls around suppertime, as I said before. The media would eventually flock to the more-accurate poll, even if it involved the dreaded crass freemarket capitalism of people willingly gambling. >This doesn't track the polls, which typically ask who the potential voter >would vote for rather than who they think will win the election. Indeed. Also, a prominent candidate (this time) told devotees (last time) to give wrong answers to pollsters when called. While it's still possible, this behavior is much less likely with real money (though with his kinda dough, distortions would be possible for him -- & profitable for others). >Other issues: > >Percentage of popular vote to Dem candidate: 47 >" " Rep " : 44 >" " Other " : 12 > >Note that there may be an opportunity for arbitrage when numbers don't add >up to 100; Last time there was supposedly an arbitrage opportunity between odds in Moscow and those in London [Now THAT'S my kind of bet;) -- I can't lose] according to a W$J article on the subject from years ago. 20 minutes on Alta Vista this morning reveals nothing like this available, Ladbroke's links are hardly there, and I don't know the names of any other bookies in London, or any at all in Moscow. The closest thing was a (braindead) "George" magazine article and a few sites lamenting the lack of possible Presidential gambling. AV didn't even reveal the confusing US university site where some gambling is (or was) going on. Perhaps English c-punks can help us on the odds for all candidates, including the longshots. I think publicity from freeing up this information might be more favorable than publicity about things like porn or Assasination Politics, and the process of setting up a site that reveals the odds in semi-realtime from London/Moscow should not be too difficult, especially if actual gambling is not conducted on the site. From bkmarsh at feist.com Thu Aug 29 13:24:30 1996 From: bkmarsh at feist.com (Bruce M.) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 04:24:30 +0800 Subject: In reference to comments made to me and to the Group In-Reply-To: <199608290618.XAA12301@mom.hooked.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Institute for Security and Intelligence wrote: > I'm not looking for opinions on politicians, the government, etc., > nor do I care what you think of me or my views. However, if you can > put some _solid_ thoughts into bullet items, or any other format you > deem useful, perhaps we can move forward. > > Ideas. Actions. No commentary, raves, rants, flames, or other bandwidth wasters. > > Let's see what we come up with. So what you're saying is that you now realize what a bunch of garbage you were spouting and want people to let you know the facts? ________________________________ [ Bruce M. - Feist Systems, Inc. ] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Official estimates show that more than 120 countries have or are developing [information warfare] capabilities." -GAO/AIMD-96-84 So, what is your excuse now? From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 29 13:37:33 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 04:37:33 +0800 Subject: "Undocumented Features" Message-ID: At 4:21 AM 8/29/96, Adamsc wrote: >>> >looks like the DoJ have been looking around at the mirrors.. maybe to >>> >legally hassle people about them.... > >>> Or, just maybe, some DoJ employees wanted to see what folks on the outside >>> were doing to tweek their bosses:-)? Reminds me of the *thousands* of hits >>> the "Intel Secrets Page"(http://www.x86.org/) has gotten from users at >>> intel.com > >Out of curiosity, has anyone used a decompiler to check if any of the >undocumented stuff is getting used in shipping programs? This has only marginal relevance to the list, but I'll mention in case it helps a crypto coder out there: be wary of _ever_ using undocumented features of a processor, compiler, or other system. Why? Because "undocumented features" are not promises made by the vendor, and may vanish in the next release (or, worse, change behavior in strange and hard-to-detect ways). We witnessed this several times at Intel with the x86 line. Various customers discovered "undocumented features," made the mistake of exploiting them, and then came crying to us when iterations of the processor (what we call "steppings") took out the "features" or altered their behavior. (And for a while there was even a rift between the Intel versions and the NEC versions, which copied some Intel processors and copied the undocumented features....when Intel was no longer supporting them, the two processor families diverged, causing chaos.) So, beware. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From acain at ncsa.uiuc.edu Thu Aug 29 14:12:38 1996 From: acain at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Adam Cain) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 05:12:38 +0800 Subject: Announce: NCSA HTTPd 1.6b1 and XMosaic 2.6s_b1 Message-ID: <9608291727.AA20511@void.ncsa.uiuc.edu> Hiya! This is to announce the availability of NCSA HTTPd version 1.6b1. It is accompanied by a version of XMosaic (2.6s_b1) which can be used for testing the security features. To participate in the beta testing effort, please see http://hoohoo.ncsa.uiuc.edu/beta-1.6/ What's New: ---------- The main difference between 1.6b1 and 1.5.2 is the addition of support for the following security protocols: -- Secure-HTTP (version 1.1) -- SSL versions 2.0 and 3.0 XMosaic 2.6s_b1 supports these protocols as well. Motivation: ---------- We recognize that there are many fine web servers availble on the Internet, some even for free. In releasing NCSA HTTPd 1.6b1, we are niether trying to 'outdo' other server development efforts, nor are we expecting to provide a server which will meet all possible needs. Rather, we wish to follow through on our commitment to making novel features available for experimentation and testing. The capability of performing digital signature-based authentication (via S-HTTP in 1.6b1) is an example of a feature we see lacking in the Web today. Obtaining HTTPd 1.6b1: ----------------------- Currently, HTTPd 1.6b1 is available in binary form to registered, domestic users. An exportable version will be available eventually, and we will announce its availability by the same means. To register for beta testing 1.6b1, please go to the URL given above, and select the "register here" link after reading the page. The documentation (under construction) for this release is available at http://hoohoo.ncsa.uiuc.edu/docs-1.6/ The HyperNews page (good for bug reports, questions, discussion) is at http://union.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HyperNews/get/www/ncsa-httpd/1.6/beta.html Administrative requests may be directed to httpd-beta at ncsa.uiuc.edu. Thanks, Adam Cain acain at ncsa.uiuc.edu From jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca Thu Aug 29 14:12:52 1996 From: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca (jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 05:12:52 +0800 Subject: Desubscribe Message-ID: <9607298413.AA841352799@smtplink.alis.ca> perry at piermont.com wrote: >MrAdvent at aol.com writes: >> I would like you to desubscribe me from you mailing list > >I refuse. > >.pm Lets face it. It's not a lack of volition, it is a lack of ability. Perry couldn't desubscribe MrAdvent at aol.com even if he wanted to. I can't unsubscribe myself even when I follow the instructions. When I send an e-mail, the header contains two equivalent addresses: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca and jbugden at alis.com. Unfortunately, there is some logic in majordomo that is not symmetric so that while I can subscribe as jbugden at alis.com, I can not unsubscribe since majordomo notices jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca in the header and treats the attempt to unsubscribe as a forgery. So get used to it MrAdvent. After a few months you may even enjoy the ramblings of the many too pale souls swimming in this communal cesspool. You can unsubscribe any time you like, but you can never leave. James From frantz at netcom.com Thu Aug 29 14:46:45 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 05:46:45 +0800 Subject: MSIE cryptography Message-ID: <199608291838.LAA27579@netcom8.netcom.com> At 3:20 PM 8/29/96 +0000, John Hemming - CEO MarketNet wrote: >Essentially, however, I do not think it is right for a program to display a >locked key regardless of any other issues if the data being transferred >is not encrypted. I fully agree. I wonder if the FTC is interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius lebri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From declan at eff.org Thu Aug 29 14:49:57 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 05:49:57 +0800 Subject: Singapore Global Action Alert (8/29/96) Message-ID: August 29, 1996 *** GLOBAL ACTION BRIEF *** * Please redistribute this document widely with this banner intact * Redistribute only in appropriate places & only until 30 September 1996 Singapore Government Curtails Online Freedoms The government of Singapore recently established strict controls on all Internet Service Providers and many World Wide Web pages. ISPs and content providers will be licensed, and required to adhere to a rigid set of content guidelines which apply to political speech, ethnic and religious remarks including satire, and public morals including "contents which propagate permissiveness or promiscuity." We believe that the licensing policy and broad content guidelines will effectively chill the free flow of information not only in Singapore, but worldwide. Because the Internet is global, transcending geographical bounds, we are convinced that censorship within any nation or state, whether implicit or explicit, poses a threat to all users of the global network. We therefore encourage the government of Singapore, and other governments implementing or considering policies of content control, to stress education rather than regulation. Singapore's approach, like the Communications Decency Act that was passed but quickly rescinded in the U.S., applies a broadcast regulatory standard to the Internet. The application of broadcast-inspired, "one-to-many" regulation to this new *many-to-many* medium indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the Internet. Unlike television and radio broadcasting, the Internet does not push material at the viewer, but simply makes material available on demand - not unlike a rapid inter-library loan. And unlike broadcasting, the Internet does not present the views of a limited few privileged speakers, but allows all participants to publish, comment on, and even refute, what they read. Recognizing that every culture has its own standards regarding what is or is not appropriate, the undersigned organizations recommend that Singapore's government allow its citizens to use Internet filtering tools, with which they can block out any material that is offensive to them, rather than embark upon a closed-border approach that will cut Singapore off from the new global online library. Support of individually customizable filtration services, instead of a broad top-down censorship effort, would enable Singapore to participate in a more positive and effective way in the evolution of this new open medium, and would indicate trust in the ability of Singaporeans to choose what is right for Singapore and for themselves. *** WHERE TO FIND MORE INFORMATION For more information on the Singapore censorship situation, and other global efforts to abridge the flow of information over the net, see these web sites: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/index.html and http://www.io.org/~sherlock/doom/threat.html Human Rights Watch's letter to George Yeo, Singapore Minister for Information and the arts, is located on HRW's gopher, at gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:5000/00/int/hrw/asia/asia/4 WHO TO CONTACT The following organizations have issued this advisory: ALCEI - Electronic Frontiers Italy * http://www.nexus.it/alcei.html American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) * http://www.aclu.org Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) * http://www.cdt.org CITADEL-Electronic Frontier France * http://www.imaginet.fr/~mose/citadel EFF-Austin * http://www.eff-austin.org Electronic Frontiers Australia * http://www.efa.org.au Electronic Frontier Canada * http://www.efc.ca/ Elektronisk Forpost Norge (Electronic Frontier Norway) * http://www.sn.no/~efn Electronic Frontier Foundation * http://www.eff.org Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) * http://www.epic.org HotWired * http://www.hotwired.com Voters Telecommunication Watch (VTW) * http://www.vtw.org Please choose an organization above and visit their web site for contact information. A copy of this advisory is available on the World Wide Web, at http://www.well.com/~jonl/singapore.html. From isi at hooked.net Thu Aug 29 15:41:52 1996 From: isi at hooked.net (Barry C. Collin) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 06:41:52 +0800 Subject: CyberTerrorism Thoughts Message-ID: <3225F0D7.3337@hooked.net> Dear Mr. Geiger: Thank you for your very well-thought-out presentation. That is precisely the kind of material we need to see more of in this forum. It's tough to write, but it's worth it. >From the feedback I've received, I should make this clear: regardless of criminality issues, I do not consider hacking in to a system to view things an act of terrorism (by classical or other definition). My concern, by far, is the fragility I've found with systems connected to physical processes -- processes that affect the physical world. Your segmentation of motivation and actions was excellent. I look forward to your future commentary and postings. Also, although it is sometimes difficult (myself no exception), I think you'd agree that this factual, non-flame approach gets far more work done. Your response in that manner was appreciated. Regards, Barry C. Collin -- Institute for Security and Intelligence A Non-Profit Research Institution P.O. Box 9877 Stanford, California 94309-9877 USA From johnhemming at mkn.co.uk Thu Aug 29 16:10:50 1996 From: johnhemming at mkn.co.uk (John Hemming - CEO MarketNet) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:10:50 +0800 Subject: MSIE cryptography Message-ID: <1996-Aug29-194210.1> Eric Murray writes: >Peter Trei writes: >> >> John Hemming - CEO MarketNet" writes: > >> > Just downloaded the most recent English Version 2.1 for Windows 3.1. >> > This does appear to do the same in terms of no encryption at all after >> > the server hello. >> Please ensure that the server you are connecting to is not configured for >> authenticate-only. It would be a pity to raise a big ruckus over what may be >> just a mis-configured server. >In addition, encryption isn't performed until after the ClientFinished >and ServerFinished messages, no matter which CipherSuites are negotiated. Actually the server verify message should be encrypted (to verify the key negotiation). Also the server and client finished should be encrypted. I don't actually get the client finished record or client master key record. However, I don't get those all I get is the cleartext data in packets of SSL record format. I have done a little more experimentation and it does appear quite clear that this happens with a non standard (ie not Verisign and a few others) X509 Certificate. In the trace that I have posted it is clear that cypher 02 00 80 has in theory been negotiated. From trollins at interactive.visa.com Thu Aug 29 16:13:53 1996 From: trollins at interactive.visa.com (Tom Rollins) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:13:53 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b Message-ID: <199608291905.PAA16350@rootboy.interactive.visa.com> Hello all, I have a math question concerning implementation of elliptic curve systems. In coding some elliptic curve source, I need to pick a random point on the following elliptic curve in field F_p where p is a prime number. Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b where 4a**3 + 27b**2 is not equal to 0 mod p In selecting a random point, I pick a random value for x in the range 0 < x < p, compute the right hand side of the equation and find myself needing to take the square root for the two solutions. Questions are: 1: How can I take the suqare root mod p ? 2: How to determine if a solution exists for a selected value of x ? 3: Is the a simpler method than find a square root ? Thanks for any ideas you may have about this... -tom From weidai at eskimo.com Thu Aug 29 16:37:26 1996 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:37:26 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b In-Reply-To: <199608291905.PAA16350@rootboy.interactive.visa.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Tom Rollins wrote: > Questions are: > > 1: How can I take the suqare root mod p ? Here's some C++ code for taking modular square roots: Integer ModularSquareRoot(const Integer &a, const Integer &p) { if (p%4 == 3) return a_exp_b_mod_c(a, (p+1)/4, p); Integer q=p-1; unsigned int r=0; while (q%2==0) // while q is even { r++; q >>= 1; } Integer n=2; while (Jacobi(n, p) != -1) ++n; Integer y = a_exp_b_mod_c(n, q, p); Integer x = a_exp_b_mod_c(a, (q-1)/2, p); Integer b = (x.Square()%p)*a%p; x = a*x%p; Integer tempb, t; while (b != 1) { unsigned m=0; tempb = b; do { m++; b = b.Square()%p; if (m==r) return Integer::ZERO; } while (b != 1); t = y; for (unsigned i=0; i 2: How to determine if a solution exists for a > selected value of x ? The Jacobi symbol tells you whether x has a square root mod p: // if b is prime, then Jacobi(a, b) returns 0 if a%b==0, 1 if a is // quadratic residue mod b, -1 otherwise // check a number theory book for what Jacobi symbol means when b is not // prime int Jacobi(const Integer &aIn, const Integer &bIn) { assert(bIn[0]==1); Integer b = bIn, a = aIn%bIn; int result = 1; while (!!a) { unsigned i=0; while (a[i]==0) i++; a>>=i; if (i%2==1 && (b%8==3 || b%8==5)) result = -result; if (a%4==3 && b%4==3) result = -result; swap(a, b); a %= b; } return (b==1) ? result : 0; } > 3: Is the a simpler method than find a square root ? I don't think so. Let me know if you do find one. Wei Dai From root at HellSpawn Thu Aug 29 16:50:21 1996 From: root at HellSpawn (Damien Lucifer) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:50:21 +0800 Subject: Mimic Function Stego Programs? Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: Mimic Function Stego Programs? On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, * wrote: > better than the 64 word ones I've used. I'd like to get a hold of these > (or the program, if it's not texto). I mailed DJ about it, but he said > he picked it up from a newsgroup he couldn't remember. If you follow up > please let me know any results. Fascinating stuff ... Donno, the next hop from 64 words per type is 4096 words per type, a very tall order. I've been working on a text steg'ing program for a while that operates under a different premise, however. It keeps a dictionary of word pairs, with each word in the pair being a synonym for the other. It will read through a donor file, swapping words based on whether we need to hide a 1 or a 0. The encoder is working right now but the decoder is not. A quick example: dictionary: 1=sofa 0=couch input: The couch is very comfortable output (0): The sofa is very comfortable. output (1): The couch is very comfortable. The output text is virtually identical to the input text, and would (in most cases) easily fool the average human reader, as well as fooling simple mail filters. The main problem is that very little can be hidden in a text file in this manner. I have one peice of text that is 50k, and can conceal about 64 characters of data. More typical numbers are around 15-25 characters/50k, which is why I never finished the decoder. Once i started encoding things, and realizing how little could be hidden in this manner, I stopped working on it. At the moment the dictionary is very small; nearly all of the words are relevant to only pornographic text (since porno is both predictable, and repetitive, i thought it would be a good place to start). :) I have the source code around, if you care to take a look at it. From bf578 at scn.org Thu Aug 29 16:58:51 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:58:51 +0800 Subject: the anonymizer Message-ID: <199608292124.OAA07621@scn.org> Does anybody know if there are any other services like the one at http://www.anonymizer.com That anonymize your surfing? -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From bf578 at scn.org Thu Aug 29 17:08:16 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 08:08:16 +0800 Subject: Small German bank claims first with online service Message-ID: <199608292121.OAA06520@scn.org> > > >> FRANKFURT, Aug 28 (Reuter) - German private bank Gries & >>Heissel Bankiers on Wednesday launched an Internet banking >>service -- the first comprehensive service of its kind in a >>country where online bank options are gradually taking off. >> The small Berlin-based bank linked up with U.S. computer >>firm Hewlett Packard Co to develop the system, which Internet >>users can access using a high-security personal code. Sounds scarey and like a challenge! >> Clients will be able to view detailed balances on their >>deposit, current and securities accounts and transact all normal >>banking business on the World Wide Web. -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From jf_avon at citenet.net Thu Aug 29 17:08:20 1996 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 08:08:20 +0800 Subject: Singapore Global Action Alert (8/29/96) Message-ID: <9608292122.AA25332@cti02.citenet.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: Cypherpunks at toad.com 29/08/96 Subject: Re: Singapore Global Action Alert (8/29/96) On 29 Aug 96 at 11:31, Declan McCullagh forwarded: > The application (...in Singapore) of broadcast-inspired, > "one-to-many" regulation to > this new *many-to-many* medium (...the internet) indicates a > fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the Internet. I completely disagree here! Taking into account the philosophico-political context there, it *obviously* indicate a *complete* understanding of the nature of the net. It is you (the writer of the forwarded article) who did not either dare to state or simply recognize the true nature of a govt pushing such measures. I am fed up of seing net users giving every would-be dictator the benefit of the doubt. There is no tolerance to be applied to that. There is no such thing as being tolerent to poison. Why don't we start naming things by their true names? JFA - -- Jean-Francois Avon DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee Limoges porcelain, silverware and crystal JFA Technologies R&D consultants: physicists technologists and engineers. Montreal, QC, Canada PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i iQEVAgUBMiWnB8iycyXFit0NAQGvaAf9HHTGYk/MAg/uX3uP87sOd6mWrVLw8J8u 4XFp83YV1MPBkqZ5xIxmxBNR6bF2RyqFIiD/go3x3nbfX5YkdF9jXW4iOnYNK6Ji DzrlWTDNGFwTnbUnUbPraSjULU/0x3YdKAVmcxqr6KYBBLR2NVEtiqzbVQK2exHU DZUG6oamV4sK5QFRA5gj0L+oB+qEdveZJrTK13rZT3UC21GXuOBGRPpHQStfU5nK 3v7ajP4IdlxxHZutL/S1LmPJw1iSf9eDtn76J7Y8UxrgknNavavs9rxte3mUjns1 TneE7zz2g9VMS6cqGttncp/Cwc7AkeURi7nu0tnr7jCvwlo4GhGSoA== =4R7n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From charley at clark.net Thu Aug 29 17:25:48 1996 From: charley at clark.net (Charley Sparks) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 08:25:48 +0800 Subject: New Microsoft Product! ! ! (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:11:00 -0400 From: ICSHAB at aol.com Subject: New Microsoft Product! ! ! Microsoft Panhandler v1.0 (Beta) Redmond, WA -- Microsoft Corporation chair, CEO and all-around babe magnet Bill Gates announced yesterday the introduction of a new product for Windows 95: Microsoft Panhandling. "The idea came to me the other day when a homeless man asked me for money,"recalls Gates. "I suddenly realized that we were missing a golden opportunity. Here was a chance to make a profit without any initial monetary investment. Naturally, this man then became my competition, so I had my limo driver run over him several times." Microsoft engineers have been working around the clock to complete Gates' vision of panhandling for the 21st century. "We feel that our program designers really understand how the poor and needy situation works," says Microsoft Homeless product leader Bernard Liu. "Except for the fact that they're stinking rich." Microsoft Panhandling will be automatically installed with Windows 95. At random intervals, a dialog box pops up, asking the user if they could spare any change so that Microsoft has enough money to get a hot meal. ("This is a little lie," admits software engineer Adam Miller, "since our diet consists of Coke and Twinkies, but what panhandler doesn't embellish a little?") The user can click Yes, in which case a random amount of change between $.05 and $142.50 is transferred from the user's bank account to Microsoft's. The user can also respond No, in which case the program politely tells the user to have a nice day. The "No" button has not yet been implemented. "We're experiencing a little trouble programming the No button," Bernard Liu says, "but we should definitely have it up and running within the next couple of years. Or at least by the time Windows 2014 comes out. Maybe." Gates says this is just the start of an entire line of products. "Be on the lookout for products like Microsoft Mugging, which either takes $50 or erases your hard drive, and Microsoft Squegee Guy, which will clean up your Windows for a dollar." (When Microsoft Squegee Guy ships, Windows 95 will no longer automatically refresh your windows.) But there are competitors on the horizon. Sun Microsystems and Oracle Corporation are introducing panhandling products of their own. "Gates is a few tacos short of a combination platter, if you get my drift," says Oracle Head Honcho and 3rd degree black belt Larry Ellison. "I mean, in the future, we won't need laptop computers asking you for change. You'll have an entire network of machines asking you for money." Gates responded with, "I know what you are, but what am I?" General pandemonium then ensued. From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 29 18:21:00 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:21:00 +0800 Subject: The few, the proud, the under-quota'd-mailbox US Marine Corps Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 3:46:15 -24000 From: MAILER-DAEMON at mqg-smtp3.usmc.mil To: alanh at infi.net Subject: Undeliverable Message To: "Skeeve Stevens" Cc: Subject: Re: DoJ is poking around Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM error codes. VNM3043: BANYAN SERVER at MAG26@2DMAW NEW RIVER VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL The message cannot be delivered because the recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of messages, as set by the system administrator. The recipient must delete some messages before any other messages can be delivered. The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 10,000. The default message limit is 1000 messages. Administrators can set message limits using the Mailbox Settings function available in the Manage User menu (MUSER). When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the user must delete some of the messages before the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages. UNDEFINEDI have a military account. Not all govt or military accounts belong to black-helicopter pilots. From frantz at netcom.com Thu Aug 29 18:25:29 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:25:29 +0800 Subject: www.anonymizer.com Message-ID: <199608292255.PAA08976@netcom7.netcom.com> www.anonymizer.com got a nice plug in David Plotnikoff's column in today's San Jose Mercury News. He quotes Community ConneXion's motto, "Because on today's Internet, people do know you're a dog." He also mentions its similarity to anonymous remailers. His capsule review: "On the upside, it's very easy to use and it supports gopher and FTP transfers as well as Web pages. On the downside, it's predictable slow and pages, bracketed top and bottom with Anonymizer banners, often don't display quite right." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius libri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 29 18:25:44 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:25:44 +0800 Subject: DoJ is poking around In-Reply-To: <199608290802.DAA09847@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: > >I have a military account. Not all govt or military accounts belong to > >black-helicopter pilots. > Wern't ya the one who buzzed my trailer park while I was talking to Elvis the other night? :) I actually live in a single-wide. Heaven's acre, as it were. From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 29 18:37:33 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:37:33 +0800 Subject: Simulations Message-ID: <199608292256.PAA27056@mail.pacifier.com> At 06:28 AM 8/29/96 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 10:05 PM 8/28/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: > >>To me, the most obvious one is GIGO: Simulations, especially >>political/social ones, might depend heavily on assumptions that are >>programmed into them. A trivial, yet interesting example is the computer >>game "Sim City" which allowed you to adjust the "tax rate" but problems >>always cropped up the further away you were from 7%. The libertarians were >>frustrated that we were unable to drop the tax rate and still get a >>well-functioning, happy society. > >I was taking economics back in the Armonk Iron days and we played around with >an economic simulation program written in Fortran. One was supposed to >adjust government spending and taxes to find an optimum level. I set both >taxes and spending to zero. We got a lot of economic growth and a lot of >inflation (this was not a monetarist simulation). Yes, it does sound a bit inaccurate. Let's see, while I only took one economics course in college (macroeconomics) as I recall inflation is generally the product of either the monetarization of the deficit or an increase in wages unmatched by productivity increases. The latter is unlikely to be caused extensively by government policy or spending (Davis-Bacon is an obvious exception to this in the private sector), and if the government spending and taxes are zero then obviously the former can't be the cause. > But we were happier. That reminds me of a related flaw in Sim City. When the program is queried as to what the public's main complaints are, the information is presented by the program as the percentage of the population considering various problems to be the "most important." However, it did not explicitly rank the SERIOUSNESS of these problems in absolute terms. Since it is practically an axiom of human nature that we'll FIND something to complain about if nothing comes immediately to mind, the danger is that you'll over-react to a non-problem with a "solution" (often involving more government spending) that is even worse. Another bias was the fact that the program seemed to lump all infrastructure-type spending into government, as opposed to a privatized solution. In reality, if you drop government spending very low problems will begin to be solved by private means. In Sim City, however, the system did not compensate in this way, leading to low or even negative growth, and extreme dissatisfaction, etc. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From alanh at infi.net Thu Aug 29 19:11:14 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:11:14 +0800 Subject: see you guys later In-Reply-To: Message-ID: << See you guys later >> Oh my God, I've been rejected by a beltway bandit. Tim M, could you hand me a double dose of my Lithium this time. From frantz at netcom.com Thu Aug 29 19:26:20 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:26:20 +0800 Subject: Singapore Global Action Alert (8/29/96) Message-ID: <199608292303.QAA09504@netcom7.netcom.com> At 5:21 PM 8/29/96 -0500, Jean-Francois Avon wrote: >I am fed up of seing net users giving every would-be dictator the >benefit of the doubt. There is no tolerance to be applied to that. >There is no such thing as being tolerent to poison. I don't think this is giving Singapore's rulers the benefit of the doubt. Rather, it is a case of asking politely the first time. Since it is asking him to change a policy of his, it is merely avoiding calling him a shithead in the process. When you want someone to do something voluntarily, it is usually better to start by being polite. It is up to other net-forces to make sure that censorship is ineffective for technical reasons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius libri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Thu Aug 29 19:36:01 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:36:01 +0800 Subject: Desubscribe In-Reply-To: <9607298413.AA841352799@smtplink.alis.ca> Message-ID: jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca writes: > When I send an e-mail, the header contains two equivalent addresses: > jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca and jbugden at alis.com. > > Unfortunately, there is some logic in majordomo that is not symmetric so th= > at > while I can subscribe as jbugden at alis.com, I can not unsubscribe since majo= > rdomo > notices jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca in the header and treats the attempt to > unsubscribe as a forgery. If you don't have the brains to forge the From:, then you have no business being subscribed to any mailing list. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From mekdam at link.com.eg Thu Aug 29 20:31:53 1996 From: mekdam at link.com.eg (Sherif Mekdam) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:31:53 +0800 Subject: Desubscribe In-Reply-To: <960829074816_512217624@emout15.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <32262333.4006@link.com.eg> > I would like you to desubscribe me from you mailing list From rwright at adnetsol.com Thu Aug 29 20:53:51 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:53:51 +0800 Subject: Desubscribe Message-ID: <199608300026.RAA08325@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> > On Or About: 29 Aug 96, 16:57, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca writes: > > > > can not unsubscribe since majo= rdomo notices > > > jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca in the header and treats the attempt to > > > unsubscribe as a forgery. > > > > If you don't have the brains to forge the From:, then you have no > > business being subscribed to any mailing list. > > > What's worse? Losers who can't unsubscribe from a mailing list they subscribed to OR spammers? ;-) Ross From tcmay at got.net Thu Aug 29 21:07:19 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:07:19 +0800 Subject: Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: At 10:21 PM 8/29/96, Jean-Francois Avon wrote: >I completely disagree here! > >Taking into account the philosophico-political context there, it >*obviously* indicate a *complete* understanding of the nature of the >net. It is you (the writer of the forwarded article) who did not >either dare to state or simply recognize the true nature of a govt >pushing such measures. > >I am fed up of seing net users giving every would-be dictator the >benefit of the doubt. There is no tolerance to be applied to that. >There is no such thing as being tolerent to poison. > >Why don't we start naming things by their true names? I agree with Jean-Francois--most of the recent announcements by governments about the Internet actually indicate *full awareness* of what their actions could mean for the propagation of articles, the extradition of Net.criminals, and the development of a Global New World Computer Order. The United States knew what the CDA would mean, the government of Bavaria knew what the crackdown on "racist" Web sites and newsgroups would mean, the government of Singapore understands full well what their actions could mean, and so on. And it is likely that the "control" advocates in each of these countries (and others) are pleased when one of their brother countries announces new crackdowns on the Net and Web. Very few governments actually like free speech in all of its forms, and certainly the U.S. government does not. Sure, there is lip service paid to "free speech" in the U.S., but the list of illegal things to say keeps getting longer (just last week Clinton illegalized many forms of speech involving cigarettes--what part of "Congress shall make no law" is not being understood here?). As to why so many of the criticisms of such crackdowns use "weasel language," such as the example Jean-Francois disagrees with, well, this is the way the game is played. The alternative to "The government of Singapore fails to understand the nature of the Net and could do grievous harm to it" is not quite so diplomatic: "Fucking statists. Time to nuke 'em back to the stone age." Personally, if this crackdown in Singapore happens, I intend to post various anti-Singapore and anti-Lee Kwan Yew & Sons screeds to various newsgroups that Singaporans might like to read. Then, if the Yew Dynasty decides to pull the plug, it'll be to more and more groups. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From 74740.670 at CompuServe.COM Thu Aug 29 21:25:45 1996 From: 74740.670 at CompuServe.COM (Brian Pecic) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:25:45 +0800 Subject: Mail to sbinkley@atitech.ca Message-ID: <960829230902_74740.670_EHB101-2@CompuServe.COM> You are continualy sending to Scott Binkley (sbinkley at atitech.ca). Scott is no longer at ATI so please stop sending to this invalid address. Brian Pecic bpecic at atitech.ca From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 29 21:32:53 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:32:53 +0800 Subject: Clinton follies ideas? Message-ID: <199608300141.SAA08320@mail.pacifier.com> At 10:08 PM 8/28/96 -0500, David E. Smith wrote: >Our esteemed figurehead, Bill Clinton, will be doing >the first stop of his "Road to Victory Tour" campaign >this Friday, just a few blocks from my apartment. Does >anybody have any cool suggestions on things to do to >harass, heckle, or maybe get taken down by the Secret >Service? (Or should I just yell, 'Clinton, you suck!'? :) It's too bad that somebody can't fiddle with his speech tonight, at the end of a page inserting the text, "I'm really sorry that my friend and advisor Dick Morris was caught..." and then replacing the rest of the speech with blank pages... Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From nobody at replay.com Thu Aug 29 21:33:30 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:33:30 +0800 Subject: PGP & Default Message-ID: <199608300152.DAA18622@basement.replay.com> I created a nym with a public key. Now, it's become the default so when I go to send an encrypted message, I get prompted to enter the password for my nym key. So, for the $64,000 question: How I can get my *original* public key (the one with my "real" email address) to again be the default. Thx. From snow at smoke.suba.com Thu Aug 29 21:33:39 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:33:39 +0800 Subject: A _REALLY_ Interesting Bet [2] In-Reply-To: <199608291709.LAA07068@zifi.genetics.utah.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Anonymous wrote: > the unwanted phonecalls around suppertime, as I said before. The media > would eventually flock to the more-accurate poll, even if it involved > the dreaded crass freemarket capitalism of people willingly gambling. This presumes a media that desires an accurate poll. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Aug 29 22:54:55 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:54:55 +0800 Subject: Errors-To: for cypherpunks Message-ID: <199608300121.UAA31369@manifold.algebra.com> Hi, Whoever is in charge of maintaining this mailnig list, PLEASE add header Errors-To: cypherpunks-errors at toad.com I am flooded by stupid "Mailbox is full" messages from Banyan and CC-mail gateways. - Igor. From jimbell at pacifier.com Thu Aug 29 23:11:56 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:11:56 +0800 Subject: Intel to rule the basic crypto engine market? Message-ID: <199608300330.UAA14539@mail.pacifier.com> At 03:56 AM 8/24/96 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: >Intresting but..., In the era of ITAR, GAK, Key Escrows,Clipper,& FileGate >do we really want to put all our eggs in one basket? And that basket being >based on hardware? IMHO I don't see Intell standing up to the government any >more than Netscape, Mircosoft, IBM, or Lotus has. I have serious doubts that >our "beloved" goverment will alow any standard to be adopted that does not >allow them access whenever they please. I personally do not run any security >code on my machines that I do not have the >source for & have instpected. The one kind of standardization in the crypto market that we truly need, NOW, is a standard format/protocol so that crypto telephones from all manufacturers can talk to each other. The last thing we need is a tower-of-Babel situation, which would be even worse than the VHS/Beta wars of 20-10 years ago. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From shamrock at netcom.com Thu Aug 29 23:39:51 1996 From: shamrock at netcom.com (Lucky Green) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:39:51 +0800 Subject: Win95 HD encryption? Message-ID: My main machine is in the shop and with it are the recently posted instructions how to do file system encryption under Win95. Somebody please email them to me. TIA, --Lucky From declan at eff.org Fri Aug 30 00:03:40 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:03:40 +0800 Subject: Singapore Global Action Alert (8/29/96) In-Reply-To: <199608292303.QAA09504@netcom7.netcom.com> Message-ID: Bill speaks sooth. Personally, I agree with Jean-Francois in that the Singapore government *does* understand the Net, and is using that knowledge to control it within their borders reasonably well. Remember the next phase of restrictions goes into effect on September 15. But I don't see a problem in being polite the first time. -Declan On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Bill Frantz wrote: > At 5:21 PM 8/29/96 -0500, Jean-Francois Avon wrote: > >I am fed up of seing net users giving every would-be dictator the > >benefit of the doubt. There is no tolerance to be applied to that. > >There is no such thing as being tolerent to poison. > > I don't think this is giving Singapore's rulers the benefit of the doubt. > Rather, it is a case of asking politely the first time. Since it is asking > him to change a policy of his, it is merely avoiding calling him a shithead > in the process. When you want someone to do something voluntarily, it is > usually better to start by being polite. > > It is up to other net-forces to make sure that censorship is ineffective > for technical reasons. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius libri | Periwinkle -- Consulting > (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. > frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA > > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From Scottauge at aol.com Fri Aug 30 00:21:19 1996 From: Scottauge at aol.com (Scottauge at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:21:19 +0800 Subject: Exploring (RSA (001) Message-ID: <960829223938_397314410@emout12.mail.aol.com> Exploring Rivest, Shamir, Adelman algorithm, but hoping someone out there is interested in very large number manipulations. RSA suggests choosing two prime 100 digit numbers p and q for beginning of key generation. These numbers are obviously beyond the long type of a C program. Other than using Mathematica or Maple, I would like to use C or perferrably C++. Just some basics such as multiplication, addition, subtraction, division, mod, etc over the Z set. From bf578 at scn.org Fri Aug 30 00:42:23 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:42:23 +0800 Subject: www.anonymizer.com Message-ID: <199608300319.UAA00645@scn.org> > >www.anonymizer.com got a nice plug in David Plotnikoff's column in today's >San Jose Mercury News. He quotes Community ConneXion's motto, "Because on >today's Internet, people do know you're a dog." He also mentions its >similarity to anonymous remailers. His capsule review: > >"On the upside, it's very easy to use and it supports gopher and FTP >transfers as well as Web pages. On the downside, it's predictable slow and >pages, bracketed top and bottom with Anonymizer banners, often don't >display quite right." mailto: links take you to a anonymous remailer web page that lets you choose among remailers. news: can be read anonymously but posting doesn't seem to work yet. If converts all links in a page to use the service. Some info does get through , such as your broswer type. Soon, i guess browsers programmers will start passing info there! Don't know what happens with shttp:? anybody tried? Slowness is probably because the "service" is free and they don't have the funds for more horsepower. They do claim that they cache documents, so if one person gets a page from a slow server then everyone else can get it faster. (of course they'd have to be faster!) -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From snow at smoke.suba.com Fri Aug 30 00:51:08 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:51:08 +0800 Subject: The few, the proud, the under-quota'd-mailbox US Marine Corps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > VNM3043: BANYAN SERVER at MAG26@2DMAW NEW RIVER ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ See this part? > > UNDEFINEDI have a military account. Not all govt or military accounts belong to > black-helicopter pilots. Stands for 2nd Marine Air Wing, MCAS New River, N.C. New River is a helicopter base. I served their as a crispy critter for three and a half years. He just might pilot a black helicopter. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From frissell at panix.com Fri Aug 30 00:58:33 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:58:33 +0800 Subject: Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830031445.00ac0c80@panix.com> At 05:55 PM 8/29/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >As to why so many of the criticisms of such crackdowns use "weasel >language," such as the example Jean-Francois disagrees with, well, this is >the way the game is played. The alternative to "The government of Singapore >fails to understand the nature of the Net and could do grievous harm to it" >is not quite so diplomatic: > >"Fucking statists. Time to nuke 'em back to the stone age." Additionally, such statements are not actually directed at the fascists they are addressed to. We are well aware that they won't pay any attention to them. They are addressed to private readers. In that case a good mix of polite argumentation by EFF-type groups and "nuke 'em 'till they glow then shoot 'em in the dark" rhetoric from the rest of us is probably the optimal mix. The goal is to convince a critical mass of people to choose to exercise the freedoms they possess because of all our toys here on the Net. Since people are different, a broad spectrum of argumentation is indicated. DCF "What we seek is not the overthrow of the government but a situation in which it gets lost in the shuffle." From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 30 01:00:49 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:00:49 +0800 Subject: LAT_ice Message-ID: <199608300139.BAA03404@pipe6.t1.usa.pipeline.com> 8-23-96. Science: "Lattices May Put Security Codes on a Firmer Footing." Miklos Ajtai, a mathematician at IBM Almaden, has provided the kind of guarantee of hardness that cryptographers are looking for. He has proved that examples picked at random from a particular class of problems are, with exceedingly rare exceptions, as hard to solve as the hardest ones imaginable. A code that embedded messages in these problems so that only someone equipped with the answers could decode them would provide something close to a guarantee of security. 8-29-96. WaJo: "Cybersleuths Help Make Java Safe for Browsers." Over the past year, Wallach, Dean, Felten and Balfanz have become self-styled policemen for some of the hottest Internet software around. Like many fellow hackers, they find thrills in the search for others' mistakes. But unlike some of their brethren, they're using their skills to make the software better by informing the companies of their findings, rather than exploiting the errors maliciously. ----- http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/latice.txt (13kb for 2) LAT_ice ---------- Seth Lloyd, MIT, has a 5-page report on "Universal Quantum Simulators" in Science of 23 August, which confirms Feynman's 1982 conjecture that quantum computers can be programmed to simulate any local quantum system. There are quite a few equations so we have not scanned it to .txt. However, we will scan as JPEG images for those who are interested. Send us a blank message with subject UQS_fey. There will be a delay to honor knothead labor, me. From vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net Fri Aug 30 01:58:46 1996 From: vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net (Erle Greer) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:58:46 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830023856.0075c734@mail.sd.cybernex.net> > 1: How can I take the suqare root mod p ? This has what to do with CP? From mix-admin at nym.alias.net Fri Aug 30 02:13:51 1996 From: mix-admin at nym.alias.net (lcs Remailer Administrator) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:13:51 +0800 Subject: PGP & Default In-Reply-To: <199608300152.DAA18622@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <199608300513.BAA04332@anon.lcs.mit.edu> nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) writes: > I created a nym with a public key. Now, it's become the default so > when I go to send an encrypted message, I get prompted to enter the > password for my nym key. > So, for the $64,000 question: How I can get my *original* public key (the one with my > "real" email address) to again be the default. > Thx. I assume you are talking about a nym.alias.net account, and that the problem is when you want to sign a message with a key other than your nym key? Add a line like this MYNAME = to the file $HOME/.pgp/config.txt. (Or wherever the equivalent is under DOS. Perhaps someone can tell me where the config.txt file lives under DOS and I will add that to the help file.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pgp00000.pgp Type: application/octet-stream Size: 288 bytes Desc: "PGP signature" URL: From markm at voicenet.com Fri Aug 30 02:26:06 1996 From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:26:06 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960830023856.0075c734@mail.sd.cybernex.net> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Erle Greer wrote: > This has what to do with CP? Elliptic curves have plenty to do with cryptography. A web search should turn up some useful information. It's really quite fascinating if you can get past some of the heavy math. A tad more relevant to cpunks than black helicopters, conspiracy theories, and such. - -- Mark PGP encrypted mail prefered. Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348 http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMiZrbizIPc7jvyFpAQGBzAf/dzSV77vAkJBHUM07PM0eErOeBW7tka5R OMBr7fVsOkfQcFoHuZtJDawEumbuMmcOCsU45D4zRuwvMCmT+YTxU0ZMEf2n2oVk ga/1hHJibyueZ5KHF4FgeX2dQJtodxA2mPxXA3j8lGPS7qoHy92oHHztjXF2LHQK 6wIqgqZS7LX2X6VPhL4DZ+xZ00CRquw/Ug7nk8M/KK3FmHyL6iAoGNhBryKMSva5 3WwKLxjbutK6BKN7JvAZOE7n/UGnNKXob1KV/vOl7oDeWacZoR84q0c+wOa6cM8R uzXUEkw2C1oFTTqdBPE6AI+qtfUQQ1Tm2nwCTOLK5QpyIKQakY9ICg== =s2ef -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From furballs at netcom.com Fri Aug 30 02:27:04 1996 From: furballs at netcom.com (Paul S. Penrod) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:27:04 +0800 Subject: Exploring (RSA (001) In-Reply-To: <960829223938_397314410@emout12.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 Scottauge at aol.com wrote: > Exploring Rivest, Shamir, Adelman algorithm, but hoping someone out there is > interested in very large number manipulations. > > RSA suggests choosing two prime 100 digit numbers p and q for beginning of > key generation. > > These numbers are obviously beyond the long type of a C program. Don't just assume that the long type is too small. For most compilers this is true, but the long data type (at least as I have seen the definition from ANSI 1991) is twice the base word (INT) length, where the word size is generally defined to be the size of the register length of the CPU in question to which the compiler has been developed for. Intel blurs this distinction by still supporting 8,16,32 and now 64 bit registers in the same CPU, and there are various flavors of the same C compiler that accomodate both 16 and 32 bit word sizes (read INT). Just for the sake of arugment, an unsigned long in a 64 bit compiler represents integers from 0 to 2^128-1. This is fairly large. However, Fred Gruenburg (a RAND fellow) and some of his cohorts back in 1957 came up with a method of bit ticking that allowed them to calculated astronomically large prime numbers very quickly. It had something to do with a known mathematical progression of primes in the set of integer numbers as X -> 00. If I can find the information, I will post how he did it. One other method involves using character strings to manipulate large numbers "long hand". This method is fairly slow compared to bit ticking, but it works and was used in some of the old style 8 bit systems I worked on many moons ago. You set up at least 3 long strings and use them as registers for all mathematical operations, plus allow for an overflow flag. This simulates some of the old style decimal machine in their operations. > > Other than using Mathematica or Maple, I would like to use C or perferrably > C++. > > Just some basics such as multiplication, addition, subtraction, division, > mod, etc over the Z set. > > ...Paul From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 30 02:28:51 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:28:51 +0800 Subject: [NOISE] Re: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b Message-ID: <199608300707.AAA09423@toad.com> At 09:38 PM 8/29/96 -0500, you wrote: >> 1: How can I take the suqare root mod p ? > >This has what to do with CP? Talking about actual implementation details for actual cryptographic algorithms? Very little these days*, though I suppose Jim Bell has a solution for that.... [*Not that I'm necessarily in a position to bitch, given the code-to-ranting ratio of my own postings :-)] # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com Fri Aug 30 02:28:52 1996 From: WlkngOwl at unix.asb.com (Deranged Mutant) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:28:52 +0800 Subject: (Fwd) Re: New file system Message-ID: <199608300642.CAA16656@unix.asb.com> I'm not on the list currently, but I this person is looking for info on putting filesystems in other files and I no longer have the refs to what some members of the list were doing. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- At 12:38 PM 7/26/96 +0000, you wrote: >On 26 Jul 96 at 3:07, free-dos at vpro.nl wrote: > >> I ask this here since I can't find anywhere else to ask this. > >> I'm looking for / thinking about writing a library that allows >> for a file system to exist inside of a single file (much >> like the microsoft OLE document). This is needed for a project >> of mine. > >Check the Linux 2.0 distribution. I believe it allows this. There's >also some cypherpunks talk recently about hiding encrypted >filesystems in other files, so you may want to check the archives in >hks.net. > Could you give me a good site to look into this? I tried coast.net with no luck since the source is spread over a good number of directorys. >> Requirements: >> >> Mulitiple files and a hiarchial directory reside in a single >> file. >> >> The file starts out as small as possible then it becomes >> bigger as more files and directorys are added to it. >> >> The files inside the file system can be added, renamed, >> delete, moved, fragged. (there must be a way to defrag the >> files) >> >> Each file in the file system can have mulitiple streams much >> like the NTFS file system. >> >> End of requirements. >> >> Does anyone know of a library like this and if so where >> if not does anyone have any ideas on how this could work. >> Currently i'm looking at modiling the system after the >> UNIX file system. >> >> Any ideas / comments please respond by email to: >> hawk at idir.net. >> >> Use subject: 'Re: New file system' >> >> >> e-mail: hawk at inf.net > --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. From Adamsc at io-online.com Fri Aug 30 02:30:07 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:30:07 +0800 Subject: Mimic Function Stego Programs? Message-ID: <19960830062418937.AAA214@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:34:05 -0400 (EDT), Damien Lucifer wrote: >I've been working on a text steg'ing program for a while that operates >under a different premise, however. It keeps a dictionary of word pairs, >with each word in the pair being a synonym for the other. It will read >which is why I never finished the decoder. Once i started encoding things, >and realizing how little could be hidden in this manner, I stopped working >At the moment the dictionary is very small; nearly all of the words are >relevant to only pornographic text (since porno is both predictable, and >repetitive, i thought it would be a good place to start). :) And it would let you hide stuff using a flood of Usenet alt.sex.stories posts that could be forwarded somewhere.... It sounds mainly like your program is limited by the small dictionary size. Perhaps you could work up a front end that would make it very easy to extend the dictionary? - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From Wyntermute at worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 30 02:30:09 1996 From: Wyntermute at worldnet.att.net (Justin Card) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:30:09 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b In-Reply-To: <199608291905.PAA16350@rootboy.interactive.visa.com> Message-ID: <3225228C.4290@worldnet.att.net> Tom Rollins wrote: > > Hello all, > > I have a math question concerning implementation of elliptic > curve systems. In coding some elliptic curve source, I > need to pick a random point on the following elliptic > curve in field F_p where p is a prime number. > > Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b > where 4a**3 + 27b**2 is not equal to 0 mod p > > In selecting a random point, I pick a random value for > x in the range 0 < x < p, compute the right hand side > of the equation and find myself needing to take the > square root for the two solutions. I can't remember the elliptic curve system well, but if the parameters of the curve are not standard for everyone (which I am afraid they are) one method is to pick the point first, then solve for the a & b. If this is not the case, finding the square root may be nice or tricky. if p=3 mod 4, then the sqrt is X^(P+1) mod P, where X is the number you are trying to find the sqrt of. It can be extended to X=5(mod 8) and a few others, but I'm not sure how. There is also a form for X=1 mod 4,but I can't find reference to it. Hope this helps -- Wyntermute -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GE d@ s++:+ a? C++++ UL++ P+ L++ E W+++ N+++ o? K--? w !O M-- V? PS+++ PE++ Y+ PGP++ t+++ !5 X+++ R++* tv++ b+++ DI++ D++ G++ e h r- !y ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From attila at primenet.com Fri Aug 30 02:33:05 1996 From: attila at primenet.com (attila) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:33:05 +0800 Subject: Selling your sole to DOJ ...err, devil Zimmermann? Message-ID: <199608300621.AAA29460@InfoWest.COM> = This is a bit much, if not off the wall. Any glimmer of = truth..? = [snip] = = A lot of people think that PGP encryption is unbreakable and that the = NSA/FBI/CIA/MJ12 cannot read their mail. This is wrong, = [snip] = Since version 2.1, PGP ("Pretty Good Privacy") has been rigged = to allow the NSA to easily break encoded messages. Early in = 1992, the author, Paul Zimmerman, was arrested by Government = agents. He was told that he would be set up for trafficking = narcotics unless he complied. The Government agency's demands = were simple: He was to put a virtually undetectable trapdoor, = designed by the NSA, into all future releases of PGP, and to = tell no-one. well, as to the methodology of threatening (and actually prosecuting) narcotics complicity or conspiracy under Title 18 861(a), I can vouch for the method... all "they" need is a judge like Peck in El Paso (assassinated on the bench) or Foley in Vegas (retired and gone --a hero) --both were better known as "Judge Ray Bean, law west of the Pecos" and just about as knowledgeable and reliable.... First, let me state: this is not a frontal attack on Zimmermann himself, but a question given some of the historical precedents and circumstances, and their implications on the basis of human behavior --particularly the act of saving one's ass. Zimmermann is a political flake, a warmed over 60s liberal. I would find it difficult, despite his apparent altruism and left-over 60s need for redress, to believe that Zimmermann's coding of PGP was other than a commercial stepping stone (judging from both his prior and later actions); and, Zimmermann is nothing but the true liberal he always was --most of the 60s liberals were against the government for one thing only: Vietnam --a morality issue as they saw it --but they are *still* liberals with liberal morality and a 'government solves all' outlook on life. I won't go into chain of command and discipline, but I consider my service to have been *wasted* by a government interested more in a weapons testing playground far more than any ideology or righteous need of the free world (but we sure used the ordinance; after all, the difference between men and boys is the price of their toys!). --but the 60s liberal was inflamed by a sense of (im)morality. therefore, we are back to the same old question: does the leopard ever really change his spots? have you ever seen a liberal who would not sell his soul to the devil? I do not wish to blow a conservative horn, but given: "the ax and the firing squad are merely stones on the road to freedom." --attila the sacrificial lamb is certainly not your average warmed-over 60s liberal who is generally no better than the Stalinist "socialist" sympathizers which dominated both the State Department and the White House during FDR's reign, as their cadres gave the Manhattan project and Eastern Europe to Old Joe. FDR's fiasco was also the first perfect example of OSI/NSA not willing to prosecute since they were cracking Russian crypto. For instance, I always WANTED to believe Alger Hiss was innocent in so much as his son, Tony, was a classmate at Harvard and we were on the editorial board of the Harvard Crimson at the same time --but he certainly wasn't innocent with the recent release of 50 year old NSA files. therefore, I would not even hesitate to say in relation to the accusations against Zimmermann: QUITE POSSIBLE; and I would certainly expect our sleazy government to make the offer. I am not interested in sitting in judgement of Phil Zimmermann --let his conscience be his judge. however: *** WE WOULD BE FOOLS NOT TO EXAMINE WITH A FINE *** *** TOOTH COMB PGP's IMPLEMENTATION OF THE RSA *** *** ALGORITHMS *** secondly, there is nothing to prevent us, as a group, from building a universal RSA application with a portable GUI (I think we can all afford Zinc (yuk... but it covers the platforms cheaply --and this is not an exotic interface requirement), and we can leave open hooks and interfaces for mail, streaming, and every other purpose with a single structure call. ANYONE WISH TO VOLUNTEER? --for both problems. and, if no-one else has the guts to post the new PGP key server compliant system software as freeware source code, I do! "Their" only solution for me is murder, which is certainly not below their dignity; but I am old enough not to care. NOW, given that Zimmermann was supposedly insolvent at the time of the "their" investigation, where did the money come for PGP, Inc. and where did the money come for the acquisition of ViaCrypt (the commercial licensee)? Zimmermann was NOT funded prior to the acquisition and PGP, Inc. was announced virtually the same day the DOJ dropped the case. not intending to slander Phil, but these are types of prosecution deals our "government of whores" (O'Rourke) is famous for proposing --in other words: the premise is open for interpretation. I've always believed it is not only to be clean, but to appear clean in that there is no reason for suspicion of anything but clean... does Zimmermann make the test? HOWEVER, I do think the RSA algorithm (for instance, the freebie RSA routines used in mixmaster) and its associated code are safe to a given bit level which theoretically can be incremented indefinitely as hardware performance advances accordingly. --I seriously question "they" can break the algorithm itself except by brute force. The question is how far up the bitstream are "they?" and, we should never be so complacent as to presume "they" will not land on an algorithmic method to create the primes from the bit stream --after all, they have two of the four numbers and the products... just playing a hypothetical game on "their" fears, "their" pronoucements, "their" tolerance of low number bit encryption, and NSAs use of hardware at least a generation ahead, I would gamble NSA's brute force methods can probably break 1024 bits currently, and in a "reasonable" time. NSA is a game --they will grant the public 64 bits based on their estimate of the time required with a given level of hardware to break EVERY message in a finite number of sub-seconds --leaving the heavy hardware for the good stuff, at this point Thomas Scheling's theories come into play --I took Scheling's first course in "Game Theory" at Harvard in '60 --he was extremely ignorant on number theory and related statistical analysis --we called the course: "War Games." secondly, NSA, and the rest of "them," will play the game of appeasement, fighting the good guys with delaying tactics as they surrender 64, then 128, then 256, etc. --talk, talk, talk... and Nero is still fiddling... meanwhile NSA's capability to crack the good stuff is increasing rapidly enough to keep up with the directive that they must be able to decode EVERYTHING. there are routines to eliminate brute force as a means of decryption, but they are painful and cumbersome in a public key system. plus, publication will bring the morning after visit from two or more spooks in raincoats... who are not your friends. the game of appeasement depends on enough people WANTING (not necessarily willing) to believe that what they hear from big brother is the truth, or maybe better expressed as that old "Faith in America, land of our fathers" routine. anyone around here with insufficient cynicism to buy into NWO appeasement? attila, 29 Aug 96 -- Now, with a black jack mule you wish to harness, you walk up, look him in the eye, and hit him with a 2X4 over the left eye. If he blinks, hit him over the right eye! He'll cooperate --so will politicians. From unicorn at schloss.li Fri Aug 30 02:48:25 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:48:25 +0800 Subject: Errors-To: for cypherpunks In-Reply-To: <199608300121.UAA31369@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Hi, > > Whoever is in charge of maintaining this mailnig list, PLEASE > add header > > Errors-To: cypherpunks-errors at toad.com > > I am flooded by stupid "Mailbox is full" messages from Banyan and > CC-mail gateways. Concur. > > - Igor. > -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 30 02:56:18 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:56:18 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) Message-ID: <199608300700.AAA09287@toad.com> At 09:58 AM 8/29/96 -0500, Igor wrote: >The decision that have just made is not a technical decision, it is >a business decision. You just decided that the needs of security >outweight the need to be able to deal with 100% of potential customers. I strongly agree. You've also potentially annoyed a bunch of Europeans, Unicode-speakers, and other users of non-ASCII alphabets. Just because the domain name in somebody's address is case-insensitive (and culturally-insensitive :-) ASCII, that doesn't mean their user name will be also, especially if their _real_ mail system is some ugly proprietary thing like Microso-Cc:PR0FS-HS.400 or if their name is Swedish or Chinese. > ..... X.400 ..... /OU=foo/O=bar/C=KREV/ (X.400 may be evil, but it does exist :-) > [ ! is almost dead ] ! is still around, especially for gateways to proprietary mail systems. You also need to add colon : and maybe comma , . # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From gnu at toad.com Fri Aug 30 03:03:46 1996 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:03:46 +0800 Subject: Errors-To: for cypherpunks Message-ID: <199608300729.AAA09606@toad.com> > I am flooded by stupid "Mailbox is full" messages from Banyan and > CC-mail gateways. I suggest forwarding each and every one to the tech-support address at Banyan or at CCMail. If that doesn't work, send them to the president of each company, until they fix their products to adhere to Internet standards for where to send bounce messages. You have to keep pushing each problem back to its source; that's the only way they get fixed. I had good luck at this with Microsoft; I reported their bogus Win95 email software that would, by default, insert gibberish at the bottom of each message, to their tech support folks. When that got no useful response, I forwarded a copy of the bug report to , with a suggestion that having numerous gibberish messages appearing daily in popular mailing list was making Microsoft look like unresponsive novices in the Internet market. Hmm, the problem went away... John Gilmore postmaster at toad.com From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Fri Aug 30 03:10:01 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:10:01 +0800 Subject: Desubscribe In-Reply-To: <199608300019.RAA08156@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> Message-ID: "Ross Wright" writes: > On Or About: 29 Aug 96, 16:57, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca writes: > > > > can not unsubscribe since majo= rdomo notices > > > jbugden at smtplink.alis.ca in the header and treats the attempt to > > > unsubscribe as a forgery. > > > > If you don't have the brains to forge the From:, then you have no > > business being subscribed to any mailing list. > > > > What's worse? Losers who can't unsubscribe from a mailing list they > subscribed to OR spammers? ;-) Whoever uses the term "spam" in derogatory manner, opposes free speech and deserves to be caned. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net Fri Aug 30 03:12:04 1996 From: vagab0nd at sd.cybernex.net (Erle Greer) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:12:04 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830073415.00750208@mail.sd.cybernex.net> At 12:18 AM 8/30/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Erle Greer wrote: > >> This has what to do with CP? > >Elliptic curves have plenty to do with cryptography. A web search should >turn up some useful information. It's really quite fascinating if you can get >past some of the heavy math. A tad more relevant to cpunks than black >helicopters, conspiracy theories, and such. > >- -- Mark > Sorry, I guessed I jumped the gun. I hate off-topic subjects that make this list so huge. Some of the off-topics indeed are interesting, but aren't relevant. My apologies to you, Tom. From rp at rpini.com Fri Aug 30 03:39:37 1996 From: rp at rpini.com (Remo Pini) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:39:37 +0800 Subject: Crypto CD will be produced Message-ID: <9608300754.AA20036@srzts100.alcatel.ch> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 30 09:52:35 1996 Enough requests for the CryptoCD have been made. It will definitely be produced (guys out there, send me those archives!!!). For details check: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/cryptocd.html Thanks to all who requested the CD. - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp at rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMiadxhFhy5sz+bTpAQHYAggA0Yiz/pP3CAhHx6h5K+t92bXgoadjN+Wn nJrKwHWhEs2KOwjZqfSM+AXHw/YURqGl1+wN1SJiKpZqPpoo8cM2fPWOEYg97xSG yAs7a6o9iCqCeOrRxKIAO8fuByOUpgCbYQg2ITkRpoE2isfyex+O4LqpdHfWR08h TlqpAEnVU9aO9EXUYpNUzByEs/qZ3xhIL0+F8q1fcVIOn1XscgiJ5gZpkGQSnGAn 8FJAEgjHl35MEx8RDxTVa5XqF9/qI0IDQMQC7pgsvq3/hOSfdGlpvhVv5jLzP5le IZNe0mKC7eKS2LpgNpwvJFCZ34HnbQGEuFbThVuZI6fzfvl941p4jA== =ttLh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From a.brown at nexor.co.uk Fri Aug 30 03:58:00 1996 From: a.brown at nexor.co.uk (Andy Brown) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:58:00 +0800 Subject: Mimic Function Stego Programs? Message-ID: <01BB9656.479128F0@mirage.nexor.co.uk> On 29 August 1996 21:34, Damien Lucifer[SMTP:root at HellSpawn] wrote: > A quick example: > > dictionary: 1=sofa 0=couch > input: The couch is very comfortable > output (0): The sofa is very comfortable. > output (1): The couch is very comfortable. This idea generalises well from human to computer assembly languages. You often have a choice of which instruction to use to achieve your goal, and a stego assembler could quite easily be constructed. - Andy From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 30 04:37:47 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:37:47 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b Message-ID: At 2:38 AM 8/30/96, Erle Greer wrote: >> 1: How can I take the suqare root mod p ? > >This has what to do with CP? Quite a lot, actually. Elliptic curves closely describe the trajectories followed by Dark Helicopters (known as "D-H" in cryptographic circles^H^H^H^H^H^Hellipses). I observed Clinton's Dark Helicopter tracing an ellipse over my home just a few weeks ago. (And the connections between the White House and the Ellipse are too well known to comment upon.) Speaking darkly, the leading algorithm is RSA, named after the Republic of South Africa. Ellipses within ellipses form mandalas, so the connection with RSA is all too obvious, even to a Sovok Bilderberger. Ellipses also show up on the CP list in other ways...as when people elide material and mark the elided material with "..." For an alternate view of reality, look at Neal Koblitz's book "A Course in Number Theory and Cryptography." --Klaus From jf_avon at citenet.net Fri Aug 30 04:39:57 1996 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:39:57 +0800 Subject: Singapore Global Action Alert (8/29/96) Message-ID: <9608300819.AA22874@cti02.citenet.net> On 29 Aug 96 at 19:25, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Bill speaks sooth. Personally, I agree with Jean-Francois in that > the Singapore government *does* understand the Net, and is using > that knowledge to control it within their borders reasonably well. > Remember the next phase of restrictions goes into effect on > September 15. > > But I don't see a problem in being polite the first time. Dear Declan. This post is not personnally against you Declan. I like your posts. Only, I don't agree with you last post. And permit me to advance this: it is through an honnest error of yours that you have this opinion. So, here it is: I don't agree with you. The world is being stangulated and bloodsucked dry by peoples who are nothing but cheap shots. It is not a matter of being polite or not, it is a matter of saying things as they really are. It is a matter of acknowledging reality. It is a matter of integrity. The best way to blow up their cheap littles looting schemes is to simply *say* the truth. We live in an age where everybody is terrified of stating what everybody damn well know but tries as hard as they can to blank out. By giving a simulacre (english word?), a make believe of moral sanction, you permit them to commit their crimes against human mind and life. It is *us*, the producers, who grant them a recognition by being polite to them while they propose to eat us alive. You wouldn't let a hiway robber to mug you without trying everything you can to prevent it, yet, you permit thoses statists leeches to confiscate an enormous part of your life, to rule an enormous part of your life, to define an enormous part of your life rules. I grant much more respect to a bank robber than to a politician: the bank robber puts his own ass on the line, takes his own risks, and doesn't pretend he's doing it for you. He is a robber but he makes no bones about it and he accepts the risks of the "trade". Ask yourself if your friendly neighboorhood politician fits this definition. My famnily owned a land. The city expropriated us at around 1.85$/sq.ft. while they evaluated, "for taxation purposes", the land at 4.85$/sq.ft. They sold the land to a local "silicon-valley-style" project who went bankrupt so the city could repossess it. We fighted the provincial govt (and won partially) because they planned to have the capacity to re-sell the land for housing projects, therefore speculating on expropriated land. Hey, I'd rather have the 10$ it is worth that let them have them. We damn worked this land for 50 years. And all of this was done in the name of "for the good of science", technology and high-tech employement, all with the full moral sanction of our universities most famous universities, provincial, federal and municipal govt. Only, there is not a damn business that came to establish itself there. Finally, one big pharmaceutical did but there is probably a lot of corruption underneath. It stinks. The way they could perform that extortion was with the aid of hundreds of half baked semi truths and fallacies, all in the name of some "unknown but all desserving" fucking "public". If we would have simply stood up and named their fallacies in the first place, they would have had a much harder time doing what they did to us. but our modern lawyers and "counsellors" said that we should "play along". Since the land had 9 co-owners, FUD worked well and most owners were convinced to play the game, therefore granting them the moral sanction of acknowledging realism and legitimacy. It was *all* done in the name of "tolerance" and of being "open minded". But as I said, a little poison is still poison. In retrospect, by granting them the semblance of reason, *WE* forged reality for them, *WE* gave them a moral sanction. I am not one of the owner. My mom's family is. I watched the scene with rage but I couldn't do anything. Try to make theses peoples understand after being told for all their life that "being polite" and "being tolerant" is a must... There is no such thing as being tolerant to being killed. You don't just "die only a little". In the same way, you don't loose "only a little" taxed dollars or free speech. I am not a Randian, but I agree with many ideas of Ayn Rand. I don't recite half-memorized paragraph out of her books, I fought and still fight as I can the govt in their looting schemes. I was there, sitting with ministers and arguing with them. I saw the leeches in action. So, if you persist at advocating politeness in thoses situations, next time a mugger try to beat you, try to remain polite in the first time... Many friends of many politicians will get rich on it. Our layers will get rich on it. We worked the damn place for 50 years and *owned* it. Land, not that far from there was sold at around 16$. Land behind ours was sold 7$. We got 1.85$. If anybody wants to argue with me, first send a check for the difference between 10$ and 1.85$, times the sq.ft. surface of the land. (e-mail me by PGP to have the figures :) Then, we could *start* discussing the virtues of statism. Regards. JFA Who is John Galt? :) DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee; Limoges porcelain, silverware and crystal JFA Technologies, R&D consultants: physicists, technologists and engineers. PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 From frantz at netcom.com Fri Aug 30 04:40:27 1996 From: frantz at netcom.com (Bill Frantz) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:40:27 +0800 Subject: Exploring (RSA (001) Message-ID: <199608300605.XAA20594@netcom7.netcom.com> At 10:39 PM 8/29/96 -0400, Scottauge at aol.com wrote: >Exploring Rivest, Shamir, Adelman algorithm, but hoping someone out there is >interested in very large number manipulations. > >... > >Other than using Mathematica or Maple, I would like to use C or perferrably >C++. > >Just some basics such as multiplication, addition, subtraction, division, >mod, etc over the Z set. I have been collecting information about crypto libraries for the Mac Crypto conference next week. Here is what a quick AltaVista search came up with. Since you want C++, I would particularly look at Wei Dai's Crypto++ library. If anyone has other strongly recommended libraries, please let me know. Crypto Libraries http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/ has source for MD5 http://www.homeport.org/~adam/crypto/ for a comparison of crypto libraries http://www.enter.net/~chronos/cryptolog1.html has a collection of links to crypto resources http://www.openmarket.com/techinfo/applied.htm - Internet Locations for Materials on the Disks for Applied Cryptography Crypto++ in C++ by Wei Dai. - Has been tested under Codewarrior 2.0. ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/README - in the USA Cryptolib in C by Jack Lacy - No Mac version, C, Sparc, SGI, i486 assembler To obtain, send email to cryptolib at research.att.com with a statement of the following� form: � � "I am a U.S. or Canadian citizen or a legal permanent resident of the� U.S. and am aware that some parts of CryptoLib may be restricted under� United States Export regulations. I have read and understand the� CryptoLib license."� � � Name:� Location:� E-mail:� Are you licensed to use the RSA patent?� If yes, give name of licensed organization:� RSAref 2.0, by RSA Data Security Inc. - Tested with Mac ftp://ftp.rsa.com:/rsaref/README - In the USA http://www.consensus.com/RSAREF/rsaref_toc.html - in the USA SSLeay in C by Eric Young - C, gcc and system cc for Solaris 2.[34] (sparc and x86), SunOS 4.1.3, DGUX, OSF1 Alpha, HPUX 9, AIX 3.5, IRIX 5.[23], LINUX, NeXT (intel) ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/SSL/ The Systemics Cryptix Cryptography Library in Java or Perl by Gary Howland - Java on Win95, WinNT, Solaris, Linux, Irix. http://www.systemics.com/software/ The Cryptlib free Encryption Library in C by Peter Gutmann - Unix, DOS, windows (16 & 32 bit DLL available), Amiga http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/cryptlib.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Cave ab homine unius libri | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | [Beware the man of one | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz at netcom.com | book] - Anonymous Latin | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA From dthorn at gte.net Fri Aug 30 05:10:51 1996 From: dthorn at gte.net (Dale Thorn) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 20:10:51 +0800 Subject: Encryption Message-ID: <3226ADC6.6C87@gte.net> It appears to me that PGP encryption et al is really 1940's technology, albeit fancied up by 1990's computers. Why use keys and cyphers when all you should have to do is maximize the randomization of bits in a script? Big computers should not be able to de-randomize such encoding, since the permutations/combinations would be astronomical after just a half-dozen or so random number initializations, as well as the fact that the bits are relatively undifferentiated (just ones and zeros) and are not maintained with their original bytes, words, paragraphs, or pages? DALE THORN ON CRYPTOGRAPHY: ABSTRACT 23 August 1996 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Algorithm: Select bit-groups of random length from the file until the file is completely processed. Shuffle the bits in each group randomly and save each group back to the file. Repeat if needed using different key-strings for each successive encryption, for increased security. "If a high-speed computer could perform 'a trillion processor ops per second', and it took just one millionth of a second to 'crack' my test file on such a machine (i.e., a million ops), it would still require 10^36 ops to 'crack' 6 consecutive encodings, which translates to 10^24 seconds, or 3 x 10^16 years." "Due to the nature of compounded bit-shuffling, no algorithm ever developed or proposed could 'crack' multi-pass encoding with a single decryption pass. In plain English, if a file were encoded six times (in six passes, with six different password phrases), you'd have to decode all six passes before you would know whether even the first decryption pass was successful or not." "Since each byte in the encrypted file may contain bits from other 'original' bytes, multi-pass encoding moves you rapidly in the direction of true-random distribution of the source bits (note the 'Intelligent User' comment below)." "My desktop computer (a 90 mhz Pentium) can encrypt a 12 kb file in less than one second (in a single pass) using 'C', and takes less than two seconds with the PDQ version of Basic I use, hence, the six passes that I normally perform on such a file require nine seconds or less total computer time." "One of the difficulties in breaking this type of encryption (other than the numerical time factors) is the fact that you might have to deal with several unknown random number generators from different compiled executable programs. Add to this another factor, the 'Intelligent User' who adds their own tweaks to the source code. The tweak is added, the program is compiled, the file(s) are encrypted, and then the modified source code is destroyed along with the executable file. This type of modification, together with the fact that the individual bits in the encrypted text file are scattered very effectively in normal encoding, yields the ultimate level of security for concerned persons." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A SIMPLIFIED EXAMPLE FOR ENCRYPTION/DECRYPTION ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ We're going to encrypt the following 25-character text string: when_it_rains_it's_a_bath The unencrypted string (in bit form, least significant bit at left) is: 11101110000101101010011001110110111110101001011000 10111011111010010011101000011010010110011101101100 11101111101010010110001011101110010011001110111110 10100001101111101001000110100001100010111000010110 We now generate 200 random numbers, and sort them in ascending order. The following list represents the original physical positions of the numbers, and we move the bits as shown above from these positions in the 25-byte text string to bit positions 0, 1, 2, etc. (move bit #4 to the first position, move bit #179 to the second position, etc.). 4 179 67 127 46 76 136 74 92 54 88 121 134 192 77 36 47 26 45 144 111 141 150 58 110 12 94 13 161 177 18 155 153 175 91 95 86 195 79 20 23 172 51 96 126 93 64 3 125 81 166 131 71 63 170 78 140 87 107 147 15 35 10 168 33 149 189 118 42 90 6 85 120 68 102 173 103 104 138 83 53 43 182 139 29 60 146 184 176 114 123 44 191 56 70 185 73 137 148 199 196 27 65 62 37 181 28 0 106 158 100 1 190 2 25 194 8 30 174 101 105 135 162 61 75 32 115 142 14 49 186 50 183 21 119 52 69 99 11 89 72 34 98 188 82 17 163 9 167 109 113 171 38 157 84 5 59 178 22 57 151 122 160 130 39 116 133 156 164 66 159 40 124 193 108 180 152 41 97 7 197 145 132 169 55 16 24 165 198 112 19 129 187 31 154 48 80 128 117 143 The text string (in bit form) following the first encryption is now: 10001010010000110111011110111010001011000001110010 10000110110100101101110111010111101110100001100110 01110101111111100111101001111011010110111101001000 00110110110111001010011010101011010100110100001110 At this point, it's obvious (with a sufficient length of text to analyze) that we could restore the original text using an algorithm equivalent to the pseudo- random number generator we used above. However, we're going to encrypt again: Generate another 200 random numbers and sort them in ascending order. The following list represents the original physical positions of the numbers, so move the bits the same way we moved them above (move bit #41 to the first position, move bit #9 to the second position, etc.). 41 9 38 86 67 108 8 99 157 69 91 6 15 150 28 192 56 98 54 72 145 19 48 64 183 147 102 7 138 177 167 29 164 176 97 82 83 168 181 95 185 22 21 30 93 182 109 39 197 14 96 40 84 137 155 143 16 126 58 33 149 144 140 159 88 189 4 190 153 90 68 114 129 45 53 112 119 125 127 124 20 141 142 77 188 115 175 105 60 194 106 80 31 49 51 116 1 113 151 94 2 199 161 146 71 101 62 66 154 166 3 128 5 118 10 61 110 165 43 122 42 47 184 46 133 85 74 173 36 44 111 171 89 35 163 136 162 198 17 23 78 152 121 37 12 186 55 169 103 24 34 26 178 87 81 123 132 195 65 11 174 191 193 172 18 25 196 107 120 187 27 100 180 134 59 135 179 57 148 0 63 13 158 130 70 131 117 139 32 104 92 170 50 76 73 79 75 160 52 156 The text string (in bit form) following the second encryption is now: 01011100010110101100011110101000011101101111101011 00101101100011111010010101111001011001000100000101 00111101010101011011000011101111001111110101001011 11101000001101101110101011000100111111000010111001 Now that we've doubly-encrypted the text string, try to describe an algorithm that will restore the original string in a single decryption step, i.e., move directly from the last-encoded text to the original text without the need for an intermediate decryption step. Text parsers and lexical analyzers won't do you any good in intermediate steps as described above, since all intermediate encodings will be garbage text (not only will the bits in each character be scrambled, but bits will be scrambled across characters, words, and paragraphs as well. Multi-step decryption could be facilitated where text can be analyzed a few characters or words at a time, assuming the analysis engine could determine from where to get the appropriate bits when processing a large text stream. In the above examples of bit-level encryption, the individual bits migrate to various places in the text string rather than remain within each set of eight bits which DOS arbitrarily designates as character bytes. Therefore, the ONLY tenable (but not necessarily viable) methods for decoding such text are: 1. Try rearranging the bits randomly. The disadvantages are: a. You could come up with "Mary had a little lamb...", etc., given that the bits are minimally differentiated (just ones and zeros). b. Decryption would require eons of time (an exponential factor of the number of bits processed, divided by the cycle time of the computer). 2. Decrypt the text one step at a time, in the reverse order of the encryption steps. The disadvantages are: a. You can't be sure you've decrypted any step correctly until decryption is completed (until all steps are performed and the text is readable). b. Passwords/phrases, algorithms, code routines, and even whole programs might change from step to step, thereby invalidating any 'single-pass' decryption scheme that's likely to be proposed. From sparks at bah.com Fri Aug 30 05:51:09 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 20:51:09 +0800 Subject: Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: <199608300938.FAA08698@booz.bah.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: tcmay at got.net, cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Fri Aug 30 05:45:44 1996 We could launch a mail-bomb campaign.. I am looking for the source for a mail bomb program. WinTel would be nice but I could use Linux -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMia4SeJ+JZd/Y4yVAQGlpgQMCuPtwANs1N4JbQDyUsNEpib2rR2CNrsY lRIQ1gVNHNZhptnDaHxu69R0dLhBF/hjbnQwhINGYZcuCVfE7kxRdgwVVmU+G7Bw ods0qCVe2CFddD0cxxQ8mdURnnTQGkN2nz4wA2zx1DHN/pKqzrCYxlLLllzGb+MH 50BM7K2Wj6BShQ== =wB2W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sparks at bah.com Fri Aug 30 05:58:52 1996 From: sparks at bah.com (Charley Sparks) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 20:58:52 +0800 Subject: see you guys later Message-ID: <199608300942.FAA08865@booz.bah.com> You might want to reconsider the 2x Lithium.... too much really does make you feel like shit ! Actually the lobotimizing effects of stellazine (sp) aren't too bad for a short time From mixmaster at remail.obscura.com Fri Aug 30 06:41:09 1996 From: mixmaster at remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:41:09 +0800 Subject: Ian's Linux Filesystem Patches Message-ID: <199608300740.AAA05386@sirius.infonex.com> I installed Ian's filesystem patches for Linux 2.0.11, and then patched the kernel up to 2.0.15. Unfortunately I soon realized that the entire system grinds to a halt as the kernel performs cryptographic operations on a block of data. I lack enough crypto expertise to fix this, but I believe it just needs to be made preemptable, however that works. The filesystem patch, while a definite step in the right direction, is all but useless in its present form. For an idea of what I'm talking about, kill your turbo switch, or install on a slow machine so that this is a bit more noticable. Users may want to kill their internal chip cache. Patch the kernel up to 2.0.15, and install the kernel. Setup the loopback device as the README file states. Then make a filesystem on that device. The system will slow to a halt about the time that it actually needs to write some data to the filesystem, probably during the superblock write in mke2fs. Then, mount the filesystem and try to write a large block of data to the device. Again, it dies. This will need to be fixed if everyone wants to install such a patch into their kernel to reduce suspicion, or if it is to be included as standard in the kernel source tree. I would fix this if I knew more about the way the kernel is set up. I do fear making it preemptable may open a large can of worms, at which point it may be more useful to implement this in userspace, maybe by the creation of a seperate entry in the device hierarchy. From droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com Fri Aug 30 09:03:11 1996 From: droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 00:03:11 +0800 Subject: Errors-To: for cypherpunks Message-ID: <9608301245.AA05091@spirit.aud.alcatel.com> > Hi, > > Whoever is in charge of maintaining this mailnig list, PLEASE > add header > > Errors-To: cypherpunks-errors at toad.com > > I am flooded by stupid "Mailbox is full" messages from Banyan and > CC-mail gateways. > > - Igor. > While an Errors-To: field can't hurt, it shouldn't be needed. The problem is *broken* gateways. There are plenty of properly set up and running Banyan and CC-mail gateways, we just need to harass the admins into running the broken ones properly. Let me quote from "scripture" (RFC-822) below in a typical message I send to such idiots. This particular person had neither the use Sender: set up correctly, or a postmaster address. ----- included message ---- Your SMTP to Banyan gateway is broken and missing a postmaster address. I sent a message to cypherpunks at toad.com, to which someone at your site is apparently subscribed. The listserver at toad.com correctly puts a "Sender:" field in the header of all outgoing messages, and according to RFC-822 all SMTP handleing agents must send any bounces to that address. RFC-822 specifically states (starting at line #1430 in rfc-822.txt) 4.4.4. AUTOMATIC USE OF FROM / SENDER / REPLY-TO For systems which automatically generate address lists for replies to messages, the following recommendations are made: o The "Sender" field mailbox should be sent notices of any problems in transport or delivery of the original messages. If there is no "Sender" field, then the "From" field mailbox should be used. Also, RFC-822 states that you must have an address of postmaster that people can send email to (starting at line #2046 in rfc-822.txt) 6.3. RESERVED ADDRESS It often is necessary to send mail to a site, without know- ing any of its valid addresses. For example, there may be mail system dysfunctions, or a user may wish to find out a person's correct address, at that site. This standard specifies a single, reserved mailbox address (local-part) which is to be valid at each site. Mail sent to that address is to be routed to a person responsible for the site's mail system or to a person with responsibility for general site operation. The name of the reserved local-part address is: Postmaster so that "Postmaster at domain" is required to be valid. Note: This reserved local-part must be matched without sensi- tivity to alphabetic case, so that "POSTMASTER", "postmas- ter", and even "poStmASteR" is to be accepted. So, please fix your gateway, or contact Banyan on how to correctly configure it. Thank-you, ----- end included message ---- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Oelke Alcatel Network Systems droelke at aud.alcatel.com Richardson, TX From trollins at interactive.visa.com Fri Aug 30 10:14:47 1996 From: trollins at interactive.visa.com (Tom Rollins) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 01:14:47 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b In-Reply-To: <3225228C.4290@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <199608301402.KAA25385@rootboy.interactive.visa.com> Justin Card wrote: > I can't remember the elliptic curve system well, but if the parameters > of the curve are not standard for everyone (which I am afraid they are) > one method is to pick the point first, then solve for the a & b. > > If this is not the case, finding the square root may be nice or tricky. > > if p=3 mod 4, then the sqrt is > X^(P+1) mod P, where X is the number you are trying to find the sqrt > of. It can be extended to X=5(mod 8) and a few others, but I'm not sure > how. There is also a form for X=1 mod 4,but I can't find reference to > it. Hope this helps A security issue is selecting an elliptic curve whose order (number of points on the elliptic curve) is divisible by a large prime number. I still have to implement this selection process and thus will have my a and b selections driven by this analysis. There also could be some bandwidth savings when transmitting an elliptic curve point to transmitt just the x and the sign bit of y and let the receiver reconstruct the actual y value. The choice for prime p could have overall speed benefits by selecting a p=3 mod 4 that makes the math simpler. This was also in Wei Dai's ModularSquareRoot C++ code "if(p%4 == 3) return a_exp_b_mod_c(a, (p+1)/4, p);" -tom -- Tom Rollins From liam at webspan.net Fri Aug 30 10:22:08 1996 From: liam at webspan.net (William F. Towey) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 01:22:08 +0800 Subject: Reprogramming Beepers? Message-ID: <3226F6E1.2333@webspan.net> Does anyone know how to reprogram a beeper to a new number. Please Help Brendan From perry at piermont.com Fri Aug 30 10:53:31 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 01:53:31 +0800 Subject: PGP & Default In-Reply-To: <199608300152.DAA18622@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <199608301446.KAA04448@jekyll.piermont.com> Anonymous writes: > I created a nym with a public key. Now, it's become the default so > when I go to send an encrypted message, I get prompted to enter the > password for my nym key. > So, for the $64,000 question: How I can get my *original* public key (the > one with my > "real" email address) to again be the default. I presume you are using PGP. There is a configuration file option to do what you want. Perry From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Aug 30 11:02:15 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 02:02:15 +0800 Subject: Encryption In-Reply-To: <3226ADC6.6C87@gte.net> Message-ID: <199608301351.IAA09141@manifold.algebra.com> Khm, am I being trolled? The purpose of encryption is to make decryption easy for designated parties and hard for all others. The proposed algorithm simply destroys the original text that you had. How you plan to decrypt your encrypted messages? It is not an encryption method, it is "data destruction" method. igor Dale Thorn wrote: > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > --------------5E91F122B2E > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It appears to me that PGP encryption et al is really 1940's technology, > albeit fancied up by 1990's computers. Why use keys and cyphers when > all you should have to do is maximize the randomization of bits in a > script? Big computers should not be able to de-randomize such encoding, > since the permutations/combinations would be astronomical after just a > half-dozen or so random number initializations, as well as the fact that > the bits are relatively undifferentiated (just ones and zeros) and are > not maintained with their original bytes, words, paragraphs, or pages? > > --------------5E91F122B2E > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: inline; filename="readme.1st" > > DALE THORN ON CRYPTOGRAPHY: ABSTRACT 23 August 1996 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Algorithm: Select bit-groups of random length from the file until the file is > completely processed. Shuffle the bits in each group randomly and > save each group back to the file. Repeat if needed using different > key-strings for each successive encryption, for increased security. > > "If a high-speed computer could perform 'a trillion processor ops per second', > and it took just one millionth of a second to 'crack' my test file on such a > machine (i.e., a million ops), it would still require 10^36 ops to 'crack' 6 > consecutive encodings, which translates to 10^24 seconds, or 3 x 10^16 years." > > "Due to the nature of compounded bit-shuffling, no algorithm ever developed > or proposed could 'crack' multi-pass encoding with a single decryption pass. > In plain English, if a file were encoded six times (in six passes, with six > different password phrases), you'd have to decode all six passes before you > would know whether even the first decryption pass was successful or not." > > "Since each byte in the encrypted file may contain bits from other 'original' > bytes, multi-pass encoding moves you rapidly in the direction of true-random > distribution of the source bits (note the 'Intelligent User' comment below)." > > "My desktop computer (a 90 mhz Pentium) can encrypt a 12 kb file in less than > one second (in a single pass) using 'C', and takes less than two seconds with > the PDQ version of Basic I use, hence, the six passes that I normally perform > on such a file require nine seconds or less total computer time." > > "One of the difficulties in breaking this type of encryption (other than the > numerical time factors) is the fact that you might have to deal with several > unknown random number generators from different compiled executable programs. > Add to this another factor, the 'Intelligent User' who adds their own tweaks > to the source code. The tweak is added, the program is compiled, the file(s) > are encrypted, and then the modified source code is destroyed along with the > executable file. This type of modification, together with the fact that the > individual bits in the encrypted text file are scattered very effectively in > normal encoding, yields the ultimate level of security for concerned persons." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > A SIMPLIFIED EXAMPLE FOR ENCRYPTION/DECRYPTION > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > We're going to encrypt the following 25-character text string: > > when_it_rains_it's_a_bath > > The unencrypted string (in bit form, least significant bit at left) is: > > 11101110000101101010011001110110111110101001011000 > 10111011111010010011101000011010010110011101101100 > 11101111101010010110001011101110010011001110111110 > 10100001101111101001000110100001100010111000010110 > > We now generate 200 random numbers, and sort them in ascending order. > The following list represents the original physical positions of the > numbers, and we move the bits as shown above from these positions in > the 25-byte text string to bit positions 0, 1, 2, etc. (move bit #4 > to the first position, move bit #179 to the second position, etc.). > > 4 179 67 127 46 76 136 74 92 54 > 88 121 134 192 77 36 47 26 45 144 > 111 141 150 58 110 12 94 13 161 177 > 18 155 153 175 91 95 86 195 79 20 > 23 172 51 96 126 93 64 3 125 81 > 166 131 71 63 170 78 140 87 107 147 > 15 35 10 168 33 149 189 118 42 90 > 6 85 120 68 102 173 103 104 138 83 > 53 43 182 139 29 60 146 184 176 114 > 123 44 191 56 70 185 73 137 148 199 > 196 27 65 62 37 181 28 0 106 158 > 100 1 190 2 25 194 8 30 174 101 > 105 135 162 61 75 32 115 142 14 49 > 186 50 183 21 119 52 69 99 11 89 > 72 34 98 188 82 17 163 9 167 109 > 113 171 38 157 84 5 59 178 22 57 > 151 122 160 130 39 116 133 156 164 66 > 159 40 124 193 108 180 152 41 97 7 > 197 145 132 169 55 16 24 165 198 112 > 19 129 187 31 154 48 80 128 117 143 > > The text string (in bit form) following the first encryption is now: > > 10001010010000110111011110111010001011000001110010 > 10000110110100101101110111010111101110100001100110 > 01110101111111100111101001111011010110111101001000 > 00110110110111001010011010101011010100110100001110 > > At this point, it's obvious (with a sufficient length of text to analyze) that > we could restore the original text using an algorithm equivalent to the pseudo- > random number generator we used above. However, we're going to encrypt again: > > Generate another 200 random numbers and sort them in ascending order. > The following list represents the original physical positions of the > numbers, so move the bits the same way we moved them above (move bit > #41 to the first position, move bit #9 to the second position, etc.). > > 41 9 38 86 67 108 8 99 157 69 > 91 6 15 150 28 192 56 98 54 72 > 145 19 48 64 183 147 102 7 138 177 > 167 29 164 176 97 82 83 168 181 95 > 185 22 21 30 93 182 109 39 197 14 > 96 40 84 137 155 143 16 126 58 33 > 149 144 140 159 88 189 4 190 153 90 > 68 114 129 45 53 112 119 125 127 124 > 20 141 142 77 188 115 175 105 60 194 > 106 80 31 49 51 116 1 113 151 94 > 2 199 161 146 71 101 62 66 154 166 > 3 128 5 118 10 61 110 165 43 122 > 42 47 184 46 133 85 74 173 36 44 > 111 171 89 35 163 136 162 198 17 23 > 78 152 121 37 12 186 55 169 103 24 > 34 26 178 87 81 123 132 195 65 11 > 174 191 193 172 18 25 196 107 120 187 > 27 100 180 134 59 135 179 57 148 0 > 63 13 158 130 70 131 117 139 32 104 > 92 170 50 76 73 79 75 160 52 156 > > The text string (in bit form) following the second encryption is now: > > 01011100010110101100011110101000011101101111101011 > 00101101100011111010010101111001011001000100000101 > 00111101010101011011000011101111001111110101001011 > 11101000001101101110101011000100111111000010111001 > > Now that we've doubly-encrypted the text string, try to describe an algorithm > that will restore the original string in a single decryption step, i.e., move > directly from the last-encoded text to the original text without the need for > an intermediate decryption step. > > Text parsers and lexical analyzers won't do you any good in intermediate steps > as described above, since all intermediate encodings will be garbage text (not > only will the bits in each character be scrambled, but bits will be scrambled > across characters, words, and paragraphs as well. > > Multi-step decryption could be facilitated where text can be analyzed a few > characters or words at a time, assuming the analysis engine could determine > from where to get the appropriate bits when processing a large text stream. > > In the above examples of bit-level encryption, the individual bits migrate to > various places in the text string rather than remain within each set of eight > bits which DOS arbitrarily designates as character bytes. Therefore, the ONLY > tenable (but not necessarily viable) methods for decoding such text are: > > 1. Try rearranging the bits randomly. The disadvantages are: > > a. You could come up with "Mary had a little lamb...", etc., given > that the bits are minimally differentiated (just ones and zeros). > > b. Decryption would require eons of time (an exponential factor of the > number of bits processed, divided by the cycle time of the computer). > > 2. Decrypt the text one step at a time, in the reverse order of the > encryption steps. The disadvantages are: > > a. You can't be sure you've decrypted any step correctly until decryption > is completed (until all steps are performed and the text is readable). > > b. Passwords/phrases, algorithms, code routines, and even whole programs > might change from step to step, thereby invalidating any 'single-pass' > decryption scheme that's likely to be proposed. > > --------------5E91F122B2E-- > - Igor. From perry at piermont.com Fri Aug 30 11:03:05 1996 From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 02:03:05 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960830023856.0075c734@mail.sd.cybernex.net> Message-ID: <199608301450.KAA04467@jekyll.piermont.com> Erle Greer writes: > > 1: How can I take the suqare root mod p ? > > This has what to do with CP? Yeah, horrible seeing people talk about cryptography on Cyphercesspit. Perry From mwohler at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 30 11:46:13 1996 From: mwohler at ix.netcom.com (Marc J. Wohler) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 02:46:13 +0800 Subject: Selling your sole to DOJ ...err, devil Zimmermann? Message-ID: <199608301539.IAA16829@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> At 06:20 AM 8/30/96 GMT, attila at primenet.com ranted: > > Zimmermann is a political flake, a warmed over 60s > liberal. > > I would find it difficult, despite his apparent altruism > and left-over 60s need for redress, to believe that > Zimmermann's coding of PGP was other than a commercial > stepping stone (judging from both his prior and later > actions); and, > I guess that according to the Code of Attila, us left over 60's liberals are prohibited from any commercial commerce. mjw From caronni at tik.ee.ethz.ch Fri Aug 30 11:46:13 1996 From: caronni at tik.ee.ethz.ch (Germano Caronni) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 02:46:13 +0800 Subject: Encryption In-Reply-To: <3226ADC6.6C87@gte.net> Message-ID: <199608301540.RAA06793@kom30.ethz.ch> Dale Thorn wrote: > It appears to me that PGP encryption et al is really 1940's technology, > albeit fancied up by 1990's computers. Why use keys and cyphers when > all you should have to do is maximize the randomization of bits in a [...] > Algorithm: Select bit-groups of random length from the file until the file is > completely processed. Shuffle the bits in each group randomly and > save each group back to the file. Repeat if needed using different > key-strings for each successive encryption, for increased security. Very nice. There are just two little issues: a) How do you generate the random bytes? b) How do you transmit them to the other side, without having a secure channel? In 1940, you needed airplanes to solve b), now you can use PGP (or any other combined strong asymmetric & symmetric crypto) to solve b) and partially even a), saving you a lot of fuel ;-) BTW: In my opinion, your 'randomization of bits' corresponds to cyphers, and the way you randomize them corresponds to 'keys'. My 0.2 cents worth. Gec From frissell at panix.com Fri Aug 30 12:06:46 1996 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 03:06:46 +0800 Subject: Why I Pay Too Much in Taxes Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830155849.00895228@panix.com> Better late than never: At 08:43 AM 5/7/96 -0400, Clay Olbon II wrote: >There are a couple of main reasons that the poor spend more than their >reported income. First, many of the elderly are included in the "poorest >20%", since this is based on income alone and not net worth. Many of the >elderly are spending down their retirement savings. Also students living on loans, grants, and gifts. Also members of the retail pharmaceutical trade living on their markup. >Another factor, of >course, is that welfare, food stamps, free/subsidized housing and other >transfer payments are not included in income calculations. I have seen >reports that show that in many states, this is equivalent to a full-time >job paying ~$9/hr. The Cato Institute Study. AFDC+Food Stamps+Housing Assistance+Medicaid+WIC = a fair chunk of change when compared to the taxed earnings from work. Equivalent to the take-home pay from a $16/hour job in NYC (mostly because of health insurance). The commies complained that the study didn't account for the fact that the working poor can also get food stamps and Earned Income Tax Credit. Of course, if you just establish the value of welfare benefits, you are doing a lot. >Not showing these as income helps keep the "official" >poverty rate high. I'm not sure if social security is included in income >calculations for "poverty rate" purposes, anyone know? The poverty rate calculations (how many people below the poverty level?) do not include SS or welfare cash or non-cash benefits. Thus people are not as poor as claimed even ignoring unreported income from legal and illegal employment. Adding everything up, we find that poor households spend twice what they officially report taking in. Hardly surprising since if one has a low income, one unreported job in the household can double that income. It is also likely that a higher proportion of the income and assets of the poor are not recorded (as against the rich) because most of the assets are personalty rather than realty and they are less likely to be audited, etc. So the level of income and asset inequality in America is less than you will have heard. DCF From netsurf at pixi.com Fri Aug 30 12:08:17 1996 From: netsurf at pixi.com (NetSurfer) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 03:08:17 +0800 Subject: www.anonymizer.com In-Reply-To: <199608292255.PAA08976@netcom7.netcom.com> Message-ID: I have found and reported to the anonymizer that it does not always protect you against perl-based cgi scripts. I did this by accessing a form-based email page (based on Matt's script) which includes environment variable values in the msg to the recipient. I didn't receive any response back from them after I emailed them the info. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Bill Frantz wrote: > www.anonymizer.com got a nice plug in David Plotnikoff's column in today's > San Jose Mercury News. He quotes Community ConneXion's motto, "Because on > today's Internet, people do know you're a dog." He also mentions its > similarity to anonymous remailers. His capsule review: > #include _ __ __ _____ ____ / | / /__ / /_/ ___/__ _______/ __/__ _____ / |/ / _ \/ __/\__ \/ / / / ___/ /_/ _ \/ ___/ / /| / __/ /_ ___/ / /_/ / / / __/ __/ / ================/_/=|_/\___/\__//____/\__,_/_/==/_/==\___/_/=============== From jleonard at divcom.umop-ap.com Fri Aug 30 12:56:14 1996 From: jleonard at divcom.umop-ap.com (Jon Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 03:56:14 +0800 Subject: MUD anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9608301627.AA09337@divcom.umop-ap.com> Tim May wrote: > I second many of the comments about the difficulties in coding a reasonably > plausible game or MUD for exploring list ideas. ["Crypto Anarchy Game." value and difficulties stuff snipped] > Coding nearly any of the core cryptographic concepts for use in an online > game, even without a real crypto core (e.g., using other trust mechanisms) > is likely to be almost as big a job as actually coding the concepts for > real-world use. Could be very educational, and a useful dry run for later > real-world reification of concepts, but by no means easy. I don't think it's quite that hard, so I tried to implement asymetric key cryptography: 20 minutes, to write and debug: (d encrypt (l (message key) (l (n) (if (= key n) message)))) (d makekey (l () (d dkey ()) (l (n) (if (!= dkey ()) (encrypt n dkey) (set dkey n))))) (d keypair (l () (d a (makekey)) (d b (makekey)) (a b) (b a) (list a b))) (d keys (keypair)) (d p "Squeamish Ossifrage") (d c ((car keys) p)) (c (cadr keys)) "Squeamish Ossifrage" (c (car keys)) () It relies on a few features of my MUD language, namely that functions are opaque datatypes, and that any two calls to l (short for lambda) return objects distinct to !=. > I'm not trying to discourage anyone. Go for it! But it's a _big_ project. It is a big project, but the big part is writing the MUD, not adding the crypto-anarchy stuff to it. I'm writing a MUD anyway, and have been off and on for over a year. Mark Grant's message made me think about what it would take to add the features I wasn't already planning on. I'm still interested in ideas as to what primitives I should fake. > And as Jim Bell noted, there are all sorts of costs which are not properly > accounted for. I would not, for example, expect anything interesting to > emerge out of the simulation of "assassination politics" in such a game, as > the costs, dangers, moral issues, and whatnot are not properly > accounted-for in such a MUD-type simulation. (No more so than in a fantasy > role-playing game, where characters die routinely...) After I think about it more, I realize that a MUD simulation can't show that something like "assassination politics" wouldn't work. At best it can show that it does or doesn't work in that particular environment, leaving open the question of what key difference between MUD and reality might change the result. Still, it would be interesting to see how it worked, or why it didn't. I apologize for my earlier comment that presupposed that it would fail. [snip] > --Tim May Jon Leonard From claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com Fri Aug 30 13:38:48 1996 From: claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com (Christian Claborne) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 04:38:48 +0800 Subject: San Diego CPunk Physical meeting Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830173157.002b9cc4@cyberthought.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- <<<<< NOTE! I have a new address!!! >>>>>> San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium Thursday, Sep. 21, 1996. Invitation to all Cypherpunks to join the San Diego crowd at "The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop". We discuss cryptography and other related subjects, have the special cypherpunk dinner, and unwind after a long day at the grind stone. Don't forget to bring your public key fingerprint. If you can figure out how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool. If you want the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID. Hopefully Lance Cottrell will give us an update on Mixmaster and what's going on at San Diego's best ISP. You can also get the scoop on why I resigned from NCR. It wouldn't of course be because someone freaked out when I forwarded the cypherpunk e-mail titled "How to become in international Arms trafficker"... Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop 3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach. 488-9060 Time:1800 Their Directions: 8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit Take west mission bay drive Go right on Mission Blvd. On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd. It is located between roller coaster and garnett. It's kind of 40s looking building... funky looking (their description, not mine) They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer. See you there! New guy, bring your fingerprint. Drop me a note if you plan to attend... NOTE: My primary e-mail address has changed to use my own domain. You can reach me at "claborne at cyberthought.com". Permanently replace any other address that you may have for me. I am currently not subscribed to the CP list since my current internet connection is slow (I can't afford anything right now :) 2 -- C -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Personal Edition iQEVAgUBMicd5IP1MBWQ+9udAQHH8gf+IRwyVgQ1SO9ktTnT1St7g9HUM0HwvZZJ IxSQxJ57wVfgwcaCaYvUxnrtkhq6fhW77WTrv/IT2rHMlKJGwX6xN3sF24CUKQ5s Hl3Pxxuqp/HVkXqsQsCdzAGVqrK+DXqbLLJMUSKDLzZUqqfqYA6di8GrB17vNDxT V6LkTVwZsERlofvlA9d+3aEPlSdxgOP47H9TRtqd/XwVuP3C1h+1QPzq9+uzImkG /J51rAzh69U8Kt7R/6RF2qMSKw2FwUEWZa5iN4L7RzVyEly68DkWHedu32iAEdoT v1xqhCnjya457rYvigUEOMZ/Skeb1rOfrdr5UPLY6l/+fwticMbk1Q== =I4Mj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ... __o .. -\<, Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on your computing problems. http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/ PGP Pub Key fingerprint = 7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0 54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51 Avail on Pub Key server. PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Dreams. They are just a "screen saver" for the brain. From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 30 13:47:45 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 04:47:45 +0800 Subject: Intel to rule the basic crypto engine market? Message-ID: <199608301806.LAA22022@toad.com> At 08:27 PM 8/29/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >The one kind of standardization in the crypto market that we truly need, >NOW, is a standard format/protocol so that crypto telephones from all >manufacturers can talk to each other. The last thing we need is a >tower-of-Babel situation, which would be even worse than the VHS/Beta wars >of 20-10 years ago. I think it'll be a while before we're at that point - there's too much experimenting to do, and too many different options of crypto and voice compression that are useful in different situations. Simple issues like Internet vs. modem vs. frame relay vs. cellphone make a radical difference in performance. A standardized _option_negotiation_ method would be valuable; that would at least let systems figure out if they can talk as well as exchanging keys. You can use PGPtalk if you want a single standard program that will often work - for now the best approach for non-hardware-based systems is probably to have several popular encrypted phone programs, and negotiate by voice which ones to use :-) The non-crypto-internet-phone business has been in a similar bind, but Intel's announcement that H.323 shall be the One True Standard may get enough support to cut through that. Is there some hook in their system that could make it easy to add encryption, or do we need to design Internet-Crypto-Phones that recycle the H.323 from Intel but add several layers of wrapper around them? (ITU standards being what they are, I haven't yet found an on-line source of the document, and the ITU itself has a badly organized web site that lets you order paper copies of the documents by mailing paper Swiss Francs to them, which is annoying. (It could at least do SSL web forms and Visa cards or something.) And Intel's free reference implementation needs Win95, which I'm not running.) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From peter.allan at aeat.co.uk Fri Aug 30 13:48:06 1996 From: peter.allan at aeat.co.uk (Peter M Allan) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 04:48:06 +0800 Subject: Encryption (shuffling proposal) Message-ID: <9608301715.AA11990@clare.risley.aeat.co.uk> > DALE THORN ON CRYPTOGRAPHY: (edited for brevity) > It appears to me that PGP encryption et al is really 1940's technology, > albeit fancied up by 1990's computers. Why use keys and cyphers when > all you should have to do is maximize the randomization of bits in a > script? > Algorithm: Select bit-groups of random length from the file until the file is > completely processed. Shuffle the bits in each group randomly and > save each group back to the file. Repeat if needed using different > key-strings for each successive encryption, for increased security. > "Due to the nature of compounded bit-shuffling, no algorithm ever developed > or proposed could 'crack' multi-pass encoding with a single decryption pass. You are producing a permutation table. Repeat passes just get you a new table, no different in principle. > [Time calc for 12kb file....] > "One of the difficulties in breaking this type of encryption (other than the > numerical time factors) is the fact that you might have to deal with several > unknown random number generators from different compiled executable programs. > Add to this another factor, the 'Intelligent User' who adds their own tweaks > to the source code. The tweak is added, the program is compiled, the file(s) > are encrypted, and then the modified source code is destroyed along with the > executable file. But the internet worm of 1988 was captured, decompiled and analysed in days. Self-modifying viruses get analysed (by single stepping). Your programs will go the same way as soon as there is (financial ?) motivation. So the users have to know the algorithms, including "tweaks" in order to communicate ? Not the most convenient key. > EXAMPLE when_it_rains_it's_a_bath (least significant bit at left): > 11101110000101101010011001110110111110101001011000 > 10111011111010010011101000011010010110011101101100 > 11101111101010010110001011101110010011001110111110 > 10100001101111101001000110100001100010111000010110 becomes > 01011100010110101100011110101000011101101111101011 > 00101101100011111010010101111001011001000100000101 > 00111101010101011011000011101111001111110101001011 > 11101000001101101110101011000100111111000010111001 >From this known plaintext-cyphertext pair the enemy can list all the possible sources and destinations of each bit. EG first bit of plaintext (position 0, value 1) can move to 1,3,4,5,....,199 second bit of plaintext (position 1, value 1) can move to 1,3,4,5,....,199 Given a number of pairs of the same length, produced with the same key details each of these lists of possibilities shrinks by around half. Your 12kb file is well on the way to being cracked after 4+10+3=17 pairs are discovered. If the intention is never to reuse keys, then this scheme gets you nothing you couldn't have with a normal stream cipher. And they, don't reveal the number of 1-bits and 0-bits in the message. Different messages will be recognisable different. A chosen plaintext attack (where these are possible) becomes a breeze. > b. Passwords/phrases, algorithms, code routines, and even whole programs > might change from step to step, thereby invalidating any 'single-pass' > decryption scheme that's likely to be proposed. How are the above remarks invalidated ? I don't want to stifle creativity. If you keep thinking you may come up with a good idea. But this isn't it. I encourage you to read about existing systems. There have been bright people before, and things are done (or not done) for a reason. -- Peter Allan peter.allan at aeat.co.uk From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 30 14:00:24 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 05:00:24 +0800 Subject: Encryption Message-ID: <199608301753.KAA21913@toad.com> At 05:40 PM 8/30/96 +0200, Germano Caronni wrote: >Dale Thorn wrote: >> Algorithm: Select bit-groups of random length from the file until the file is >> completely processed. Shuffle the bits in each group randomly and >> save each group back to the file. Repeat if needed using different >> key-strings for each successive encryption, for increased security. >Very nice. There are just two little issues: >a) How do you generate the random bytes? >b) How do you transmit them to the other side, without having a secure channel? I agree. This method can be looked at as two parts: 1) Generate a stream of random numbers 2) Use the stream to transform the plaintext into cyphertext by shuffling. Generating a stream of random numbers can be done by cryptographically strong methods, or by physical methods such as throwing dice or counting gamma rays, or by cryptographically weak methods such as using the RANDOM function provided by your BASIC compiler. If you're using strong crypto, the method is strong if the transform is strong. If you're using physical randomness, that's also true, and you'll definitely need to use agents with briefcases handcuffed to their arms to haul the randoms around, which doesn't gain you much operational security, since the random stream needs to be longer than the plaintext. If you're using weak crypto, we can use those fast computers you're so impressed with to try all 32767 or 2**32 random streams on your input to see what works - brute force isn't that hard when you've got a small keyspace, even if you don't take advantage of the special forms (e.g. there are good methods for reversing linear congruential multiplicative generators.) How long a stream of random numbers do you need to do the transform? And how secure _is_ the transform? For a simple XOR, you know that each bit in the stream will diddle one bit in the plaintext, so you're fine (as long as you only use the random stream once.) But for your shuffling method, you'd have to shuffle much longer to make sure that the "random" selection of bitgroups hits all the bits, and hits them often enough that adjacent bits will be separated. For instance, if your message is a 3000-word set of instructions to your fellow plotters, you need to be sure that the phrases "gunpowder", "Parliament", and "November 5th" get shredded, not merely moved to different places in the document. This takes much longer than deterministic methods, and risks not being as good. There are some advantages with the shuffling method - assuming you've cranked the system long enough to really shred everything, it's hard to take cyphertext and reconstruct plaintext, and brute force is a bit more work than with a deterministic method that uses one pass. But you can get that effect by using stronger methods, such as the des | tran | des | tran | des where "tran" is a simple key-or-input-driven shuffle that doesn't need to be totally strong. (Is Carl Ellison the person who proposed this? I've forgotten.) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From zachb at netcom.com Fri Aug 30 14:09:56 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 05:09:56 +0800 Subject: Helsingius shuts down anon.penet.fi server in Finland (fwd) Message-ID: This just came over the fight-censorship list. --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:11:56 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh To: fight-censorship at vorlon.mit.edu Cc: azeem at dial.pipex.com, jseiger at cdt.org Subject: Helsingius shuts down anon.penet.fi server in Finland This is a sad day in the history of the Net. Hundreds of thousands of people had accounts on Julf's pseudonmyous server and many netizens relied on it daily to preserve their privacy online. (Unlike cypherpunk remailers, it's not truly anonymous since Julf keeps records of what anon id maps to what email address.) From Azeem's report and the press release below, Julf's move seems to be in response to a Finnish court's preliminary decision that the privacy remailers could be violated by court order -- something the Scientologists have been pushing. Still, I'd be surprised if Julf's decision wasn't prompted in part by the hideous London Observer article that falsely accused him of being a middleman in the distribution of child porn -- check out a scan of the Sunday cover at: http://scallywag.com/ -Declan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:11:51 +0100 From: Azeem Azhar To: azeem at ivision.co.uk Subject: [ALERT] Penet is dead Hello all, I just got off the phone with Johann Helsingius who runs the anon.penet.fi anonymous e-mail service. 1. He has decided to close the service. 2. This is not related to the article in The Observer. It is, in fact, due to a decision of a lower Finnish court on petition from the Church of Scientology. Penet went to court last week and made the decision today. The implication of the decision is that e-mail over the Internet is not protect by the usual Finnish privacy laws. 3. The server is currently down while Julf re-writes the software. Once it runs again, it will be phased out for private use, but groups such as the Samaritans and human rights agencies should be able to use it. 4. They are appealing against the decision. 5. Julf expects that revisions in Finnish law to provide a safe legal status for anonymous remailers will be in place at the earliest in Spring next year. 6. Once again: this is unrelated to The Observer's scandalous reporting. Your faithful furry friend, Azeem ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:15:41 +0100 From: Azeem Azhar To: azeem at ivision.co.uk Subject: [ALERT} Penet is dead (correction) Sorry . . . a slight error: > 2. This is not related to the article in The Observer. It is, in fact, > due to a decision of a lower Finnish court on petition from the Church > of Scientology. Penet went to court last week and made the decision > today. The implication of the decision is that e-mail over the Internet > is not protect by the usual Finnish privacy laws. The implication of the court's decision (rather than Penet's to shut the server) is that e-mail over the Internet is not protected by the usual Finnish privacy laws. Sorry! -- [Julf's press release. -Declan] PRESS RELEASE 30.8.1996 Johan Helsingius closes his Internet remailer Johan Helsingius from Helsinki has decided to close his Internet remailer. The so-called anonymous remailer is the most popular remailer in the world, with over half a million users. "I will close down the remailer for the time being because the legal issues governing the whole Internet in Finland are yet undefined. The legal protection of the users needs to be clarified. At the moment the privacy of Internet messages is judicially unclear." The idea of an anonymous remailer is to protect the confidentiality of it�s users� identity. The remailer itself does not store messages but serves as a channel for message transmission. The remailer forwards messages without the identity of the original sender. Finland is one of the leading countries in Internet usage. Therefore all decisions and changes made in Finland arouse wide international interest. "I have developed and maintained the remailer in my free time for over three years now. It has taken up a lot of time and energy. Internet has changed a lot in these three years - now there are dozens of remailers in the world, which offer similar services." "I have also personally been a target because of the remailer for three years. Unjustified accusations affect both my job and my private life" says Johan Helsingius. He surmises that the closing of the remailer will raise a lot of discussion among the Internet community. "These remailers have made it possible for people to discuss very sensitive matters, such as domestic violence, school bullying or human rights issues anonymously and confidentially on the Internet. To them the closing of the remailer is a serious problem", says Helsingius. Child porn claims proven false Last Sunday�s issue of the English newspaper Observer claimed that the remailer has been used for transmitting child pornography pictures. The claims have been investigated by the Finnish police. Observer�s claims have been found groundless. Police sergeant Kaj Malmberg from the Helsinki Police Crime Squad is specialized in investigating computer crimes. He confirms that already a year ago Johan Helsingius restricted the operations of his remailer so that it cannot transmit pictures. "The true amount of child pornography in Internet is difficult to assess, but one thing is clear: We have not found any cases where child porn pictures were transmitted from Finland", Kaj Malmberg says. Ground rules need to be clarified There are several large network projects going on in Finland at the moment, such as the TIVEKE project run by the Ministry of Communications and the Information Society Forum project run by the Ministry of Finance. Johan Helsingius is participating the work of these projects. Projects assess the political and social issues of networks and the impact of these issues in the long run. These projects also need the support of daily, practical work to help short-term decision-making. Johan Helsingius is now taking an initiative in the development of the daily network rules. He wants to set up a task force to discuss the practical problems related to ethical and civil rights issues in connection with the Internet. "I will try to set up a task force which will include Internet experts together with representatives of civic organizations and authorities. The task force could take a stand on issues such as the network�s practical operation methods and the misuse of the network. I hope that the results of this task force will support the development of the network", he says. For further information, please contact Johan Helsingius Oy Penetic Ab tel. +358 0400 2605 e-mail: julf at penet.fi From apteryx at super.zippo.com Fri Aug 30 14:26:06 1996 From: apteryx at super.zippo.com (Mark Heaney) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 05:26:06 +0800 Subject: PGP & Default Message-ID: <32272d82.348928496@super.zippo.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:13:23 -0400 (EDT), lcs Remailer Administrator wrote: [snip] >to the file $HOME/.pgp/config.txt. (Or wherever the equivalent is >under DOS. Perhaps someone can tell me where the config.txt file >lives under DOS and I will add that to the help file.) It's in the same directory as PGP, which will be the directory referenced by the SET PGPPATH statement in the autoexec.bat file if PGP is installed and configured correctly. At least with version 2.6.2. You can use MyName="any string of characters that is specific enough to identify one and only one key". I have mine set as my name, so that no matter what e-mail address I use, PGP uses the right key. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMicvtN36bir1/qfZAQFnzgMAxTk55pldFWgysbjOj1Tqt/KAfB4Ty2WA EmTLRMziw8QglZSDzRxKcfvU3XjefNM7kA8YYPaKcgOlEhDiKB+Z9WDGMwwSJePk CFgTRPtuZS4kpjGsTZIvQN31ZqB5Ko0f =kSuW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Heaney finger snipe at starburst.cbl.cees.edu for public key PGP Fingerprint= BB D8 9B 07 51 87 05 AC 47 7B F2 4F A6 AB 1A CD ----------------------------------------------------------------- You keep using that word, I dunna think it means what you think it means. From massmail at aol.com Fri Aug 30 14:28:29 1996 From: massmail at aol.com (~~ SECRETS ~~) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 05:28:29 +0800 Subject: ~~ Bankers' Secrets ~~ Message-ID: <199608291833.OAA17573@smtp2.interramp.com> =======> BANKING SECRETS REVEALED!! <======= ====> SAVE $100,000 & EARN 7% to 10% INTEREST <==== Dear Friend, Did you know that you can save up to $100,000 on the biggest investment in your life? 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From byrd at ACM.ORG Fri Aug 30 14:35:09 1996 From: byrd at ACM.ORG (Jim Byrd) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 05:35:09 +0800 Subject: anon.penet.fi closing down Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830182343.006b93a8@super.zippo.com> This was just posted: --------- Path: szdc-e!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!news.Sta nford.EDU!not-for-mail From: rcgraves at ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.religion.scientology,alt.privacy.anon-server Subject: penet.fi closing down Followup-To: alt.privacy.anon-server Date: 30 Aug 1996 09:49:40 -0700 Organization: Unaffiliated Fans of Nizkor, http://www.nizkor.org/ Lines: 87 Sender: llurch at Networking.Stanford.EDU Distribution: inet Message-ID: <507634$kj8 at Networking.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: networking.stanford.edu Xref: szdc-e comp.org.eff.talk:16082 alt.religion.scientology:115080 alt.privacy.anon-server:2691 Attributions deleted on request. -rich PRESS RELEASE 30.8.1996 Johan Helsingius closes his Internet remailer Johan Helsingius from Helsinki has decided to close his Internet remailer. The so-called anonymous remailer is the most popular remailer in the world, with over half a million users. "I will close down the remailer for the time being because the legal issues governing the whole Internet in Finland are yet undefined. The legal protection of the users needs to be clarified. At the moment the privacy of Internet messages is judicially unclear." The idea of an anonymous remailer is to protect the confidentiality of its users' identity. The remailer itself does not store messages but serves as a channel for message transmission. The remailer forwards messages without the identity of the original sender. Finland is one of the leading countries in Internet usage. Therefore all decisions and changes made in Finland arouse wide international interest. "I have developed and maintained the remailer in my free time for over three years now. It has taken up a lot of time and energy. Internet has changed a lot in these three years - now there are dozens of remailers in the world, which offer similar services." "I have also personally been a target because of the remailer for three years. Unjustified accusations affect both my job and my private life" says Johan Helsingius. He surmises that the closing of the remailer will raise a lot of discussion among the Internet community. "These remailers have made it possible for people to discuss very sensitive matters, such as domestic violence, school bullying or human rights issues anonymously and confidentially on the Internet. To them the closing of the remailer is a serious problem", says Helsingius. Child porn claims proven false Last Sunday�s issue of the English newspaper Observer claimed that the remailer has been used for transmitting child pornography pictures. The claims have been investigated by the Finnish police. Observer�s claims have been found groundless. Police sergeant Kaj Malmberg from the Helsinki Police Crime Squad is specialized in investigating computer crimes. He confirms that already a year ago Johan Helsingius restricted the operations of his remailer so that it cannot transmit pictures. "The true amount of child pornography in Internet is difficult to assess, but one thing is clear: We have not found any cases where child porn pictures were transmitted from Finland", Kaj Malmberg says. Ground rules need to be clarified There are several large network projects going on in Finland at the moment, such as the TIVEKE project run by the Ministry of Communications and the Information Society Forum project run by the Ministry of Finance. Johan Helsingius is participating the work of these projects. Projects assess the political and social issues of networks and the impact of these issues in the long run. These projects also need the support of daily, practical work to help short-term decision-making. Johan Helsingius is now taking an initiative in the development of the daily network rules. He wants to set up a task force to discuss the practical problems related to ethical and civil rights issues in connection with the Internet. "I will try to set up a task force which will include Internet experts together with representatives of civic organizations and authorities. The task force could take a stand on issues such as the network�s practical operation methods and the misuse of the network. I hope that the results of this task force will support the development of the network", he says. For further information, please contact Johan Helsingius Oy Penetic Ab tel. +358 0400 2605 e-mail: julf at penet.fi From claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com Fri Aug 30 15:02:57 1996 From: claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com (Christian Claborne) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 06:02:57 +0800 Subject: San Diego CPunk Physical meeting!!!!! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830190803.002b4df4@cyberthought.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- <<<<< NOTE! I have a new address!!! >>>>>> Change in DATE. sorry ------> Sep 5, Next Thursday!!! San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium Thursday, Sep. 5, 1996. Invitation to all Cypherpunks to join the San Diego crowd at "The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop". We discuss cryptography and other related subjects, have the special cypherpunk dinner, and unwind after a long day at the grind stone. Don't forget to bring your public key fingerprint. If you can figure out how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool. If you want the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID. Hopefully Lance Cottrell will give us an update on Mixmaster and what's going on at San Diego's best ISP. You can also get the scoop on why I resigned from NCR. It wouldn't of course be because someone freaked out when I forwarded the cypherpunk e-mail titled "How to become in international Arms trafficker"... Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop 3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach. 488-9060 Time:1800 Their Directions: 8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit Take west mission bay drive Go right on Mission Blvd. On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd. It is located between roller coaster and garnett. It's kind of 40s looking building... funky looking (their description, not mine) They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer. See you there! New guy, bring your fingerprint. Drop me a note if you plan to attend... NOTE: My primary e-mail address has changed to use my own domain. You can reach me at "claborne at cyberthought.com". Permanently replace any other address that you may have for me. I am currently not subscribed to the CP list since my current internet connection is slow (I can't afford anything right now :) 2 -- C -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Personal Edition iQEVAgUBMic8AYP1MBWQ+9udAQFSDQf8CXxsoBlLZIpXORcT2pkRYO67eFgVQehU 9Mzc1uVyb9k8JKzID4zMEEuRiUF38GMaVC9PJdmSGObzulhpduNgRwu15bXDPK80 gf4El696ncHqRqPNBZw+6JXWuNbotryZUVVAr+98LgwViP4jm6/U8KCkWd5scjll gfxQi7vxXCAAz1lGf6N+NZhP54m37PbTIkyXu59M2Js85LlVLZ0nY+aSsebjVzXt ojCn6QQKnq4Zns9bxxuhm71AmyVhT09cKzgwR8xrnCPOXLAvtx6m7a0q1rBbqh+Y QiNT95YmJovOIgtUB+xCa706W1X4N1MqPD36n1S5lumhSrCiPBg9jg== =l4SF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ... __o .. -\<, Claborne at CYBERTHOUGHT.com ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on your computing problems. http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/ PGP Pub Key fingerprint = 7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0 54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51 Avail on Pub Key server. PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Dreams. They are just a "screen saver" for the brain. From mpd at netcom.com Fri Aug 30 15:06:43 1996 From: mpd at netcom.com (Mike Duvos) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 06:06:43 +0800 Subject: Penet Bites the Dust Message-ID: <199608301913.MAA22151@netcom23.netcom.com> An interesting Net tidbit. Note that the "International Conference on Child Sexual Exploitation" in Stolkholm which served as a platform for these accusations and various coordinated stories in numerous media outlets is simply a circus put on by ECPAT, a well-known pressure group whose propaganda is modeled after the now-defunct National Coalition on Pornography, and whose spurious and laughable claims about child pornography and vast pedophile conspiracies would fill volumes. The only odd thing here is that the mainstream press is presenting this gathering with a perfectly straight face, as if it were some sort of credible event, which of course it is not. ----- HELSINKI (Reuter) - A Finnish Internet specialist said on Friday he was closing his remailer, or anonymous forwarding system, after rejecting allegations it was being used as a conduit for child pornography. Johan Helsingius, whose remailer is one of the largest in the world with over half a million users, said in a statement he was closing down the system because the legal issues governing the Internet in Finland are unclear. ``The legal protection of users needs to be clarified. At the moment the privacy of Internet messages is judicially unclear,'' said Helsingius, who said he set up and ran the remailer in his free time partly as an initiative to help abused children. Internet remailers are computers which receive and forward messages with a pseudonym or anonymous source. There are about five large ones in the world, and they exist to enable anonymous discussion of sensitive subjects -- for instance by victims of child abuse, potential suicides or people in politically repressed societies. Helsingius, supported by Finnish police, earlier this week dismissed claims in Britain's Observer Sunday newspaper that his remailing system handled up to 90 percent of child pornography on the Internet. ``I have also personally been a target because of the remailer for three years,'' he said on Friday. ``Unjustified accusations affect both my job and my private life.'' The newspaper reported the charges, by a U.S. policeman and FBI adviser, as Belgian police were investigating horrific child sex crimes and ahead of an international conference in Stockholm on the commercial sexual exploitation of children. In Helsingius's statement, Helsinki police sergeant Kaj Malmberg was quoted as saying he had found no evidence of child porn being transmitted from Finland. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd at netcom.com $ via Finger. $ From tcmay at got.net Fri Aug 30 15:18:31 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 06:18:31 +0800 Subject: MUD anyone? Message-ID: At 4:27 PM 8/30/96, Jon Leonard wrote: >Tim May wrote: >> I second many of the comments about the difficulties in coding a reasonably >> plausible game or MUD for exploring list ideas. > >["Crypto Anarchy Game." value and difficulties stuff snipped] > >> Coding nearly any of the core cryptographic concepts for use in an online >> game, even without a real crypto core (e.g., using other trust mechanisms) >> is likely to be almost as big a job as actually coding the concepts for >> real-world use. Could be very educational, and a useful dry run for later >> real-world reification of concepts, but by no means easy. > >I don't think it's quite that hard, so I tried to implement asymetric key >cryptography: > >20 minutes, to write and debug: Well, cryptography (per se) is the most basic, and in some sense simplest, part of the whole thing: the "semantics" of crypto are well-understood (even if not to the snake oil salesmen and repeated inventors of one time pads). Consider that PGP was basically a realization (others existed, natch) of ideas that were almost 20 years old. Some much harder (to me) protocols: fair coin tosses, blinded coins, oblivious transfers, digital cash in all its many forms (and issues), DC-Nets, and so on. Sure, bits and pieces are codable--and have been--but a comprehensive package is tough to write. Wei Dai's and Matt Blaze's libraries are excellent, I hear, but are not targetted at creating these building blocks for crypto anarchy. And the social and organization assumptions coded into software is a major issue to think about. Some Scheme or C code doing part of these things will likely not be real useful. Your code is admirable. I did the same thing in Mathematica, a few years ago when I was still interested in the innards of RSA. (It took me longer than 20 minutes to write, though...but I also got to play around with big primes, the basic number theory stuff, etc. A useful learning experience.) But implementing more recent cryptographic building blocks seems more than an order of magnitude harder. (If you can implement a reasonably robust bank-digicash system in 10 x 20 minutes = 3.5 hours, I'll be impressed. Merely speccing what it should do and how it should behave in various situations would take far, far longer than this. Just my view. Maybe I'm wrong.) >It is a big project, but the big part is writing the MUD, not adding the >crypto-anarchy stuff to it. I'm writing a MUD anyway, and have been off >and on for over a year. Mark Grant's message made me think about what it >would take to add the features I wasn't already planning on. Depends on what you mean by "crypto-anarchy stuff." As I see it, it means building a reasonably robust economic system, a market or agora with various transaction mechanisms built in. Sort of a cross between "SimCity" and Vinge's "True Names." >I'm still interested in ideas as to what primitives I should fake. > >> And as Jim Bell noted, there are all sorts of costs which are not properly >> accounted for. I would not, for example, expect anything interesting to >> emerge out of the simulation of "assassination politics" in such a game, as >> the costs, dangers, moral issues, and whatnot are not properly >> accounted-for in such a MUD-type simulation. (No more so than in a fantasy >> role-playing game, where characters die routinely...) > >After I think about it more, I realize that a MUD simulation can't show >that something like "assassination politics" wouldn't work. At best it >can show that it does or doesn't work in that particular environment, >leaving open the question of what key difference between MUD and reality >might change the result. Still, it would be interesting to see how it >worked, or why it didn't. Even if well-implemented (a _lot_ of effort), I doubt it would say anything more about the real-world aspects of some future crypto-anarchic world than, say, playing "Risk" or "Diplomacy" has meaningful things to say about how nations form alliances and go to war with other nations. Or as much as playing "Monopoly" teaches one about actual business and economic interactions. (Before defenders of these games jump in with comments about how useful and enjoyable these games are, sure, some knowledge is gained. But huge differences are obvious. A conclusion drawn from playing these games will not hold up in the real world. I expect the same is true of "assassination politics.") --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jimbell at pacifier.com Fri Aug 30 15:26:34 1996 From: jimbell at pacifier.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 06:26:34 +0800 Subject: **"OuR" Project press release** (fwd) Message-ID: <199608301928.MAA02910@mail.pacifier.com> >Forwarded message: >> Subject: (Fwd) Re: **"OuR" Project press release** >> Priority: normal >> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) >> Pulled this off of the net. The was even better than SkyeDance IV ;-) >> ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >> Paul Robinson & Ken Mizoi wrote: >> > To All Fellow Rocketeers: [stuff deleted] >> > Unfortunately, the rocket failed to deploy its recovery systems and >> > accelerated to over Mach 1 and impacted into the sand dunes several >> > miles away. There was a loud sonic boom heard by all that literally >> > shook the earth. In fact, instead of the nominal "hole and fin slits" >> > seen in previous impacts, there was a twenty foot diameter area with >> > large chunks of sheared earth as if a high energy charge had been >> > detonated under the ground. The rocket was not recovered, but several >> > pieces of metal, fiberglass, and burnt Nomex were found indicating the >> > ejection charges did in fact fire. >> > Once again, the "OuR" Project members wish to express sincere thanks >> > to all those who listened, donated, and gave their support who were >> > not specifically named. This project would not have flown if were not >> > for the "believers" and the tremendous team spirit. Only they know >> > the sweat and the number of hours it takes to fly such a rocket. >> > Members of the "OuR" Team >> ----------------- >> Stu Barrett >> e-mail: stu at zilker.net Recommendation for the next one: Rather than try to brute force an LEO from about sea level, how about lofting the rocket by balloon up to a starting altitude of, say, 100,000 feet, and letting'er'rip from there? (this is probably not a new technique...) Using a hydrogen balloon, a cubic meter of balloon volume would loft 1.2 kilograms at sea level, although only 1/50th of that at 100,000 feet, or 25 grams. A 700-pound (320 kilogram)rocket would require 12,000 cubic meters of envelope volume, discounting the weight of the balloon itself, equivalent to the volume of a cube 25 meters on a side. Obvious advantages: First, you're 20 miles closer to an LEO altitude of about 200 miles or so, a considerable advantage. Even more important, my back-of-the-envelope calculation says that at 100,000 feet, you're above about 98% of the atmosphere. There'd be a minor advantage if you managed to find a 300 mph easterly airstream just before launch. (Derived from the numbers included in the original note, I assume that the average upward speed is 1000 feet per second, and a top speed of about 2000 feet per second reached at an altitude of about 10,000 feet (Mach 2). This peak velocity occurs when the barometric pressure is not greatly different than sea level, which is a huge waste of energy. I'd like to see the real numbers, or at least a simulation. Could they re-run the simulation for a starting altitude of 100,000 feet?) And I don't think they have a prayer of doing an LEO without substantially increasing the proportion of fuel in the rocket from their current 35%, and possibly doing a two-stage rocket. I'd like to hear much more about this. Jim Bell jimbell at pacifier.com From erehwon at c2.net Fri Aug 30 15:51:40 1996 From: erehwon at c2.net (William Knowles) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 06:51:40 +0800 Subject: Reprogramming Beepers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Comrade, > Does anyone know how to reprogram a beeper to a new number. Please > Help Brendan The Cypherpunks wouldn't be the list to ask this unless you are using encryption for your RadioMail pagers The best place I could forward you to would be L0pht at: http://www.l0pht.com and there is some information on pagers last I checked. William Knowles erehwon at c2.net -- William Knowles PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key -- Vote for Harry Browne in November -- http://www.HarryBrowne96.org From droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com Fri Aug 30 16:11:27 1996 From: droelke at rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Daniel R. Oelke) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 07:11:27 +0800 Subject: Encryption Message-ID: <9608302028.AA00579@spirit.aud.alcatel.com> I don't have a vested interest other than keeping my data safe. A *good* cipher will work, even if someone knows the exact implementation of it. Given complete source code to your cipher, (including the pseudo-random number generator you use) and I could easily crack it with about a week's worth of effort. If you knew anything about cryptography, you'ld know that just giving someone some cyphertext and challenging them to crack is not a valid test of the cipher's strength. Again - go get a copy of Applied Cryptography and don't come back until you have read it. Dan > > Your comments are typical for persons with vested interests. > Attached is a test file so you can have someone try to crack it. In the > meantime, don't assume because I don't use your favorite methods I don't > know what I'm doing. > > Daniel R. Oelke wrote: > > > > Sorry to say this - but your idea stinks. > > > > If you are trying to send something encrypted, your > > receiving party would need the keys, which are the seed > > values of the pseudo-random number generators. > > > > Your adversary could keep trying a whole series of > > different seeds until they found the correct one. > > With a little more work, they could analyze the > > pseudo-random number generator that you used, and > > then work backwards. > > > > Go get a copy of Applied Cryptography Edition II. > > Don't come back until you have read it. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ [ crap deleted ] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Oelke Alcatel Network Systems droelke at aud.alcatel.com Richardson, TX From ben at alliedtours.com Fri Aug 30 16:19:03 1996 From: ben at alliedtours.com (Benjamin Suto) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 07:19:03 +0800 Subject: Encryption Message-ID: <01BB9693.9F57A220@ben.alliedtours.com> I'm probably the last person who could mention something intelligible here, but assuming this encryption algorithm works, and Joe wants to give Jane a file, how would he tell her how to decrypt it? If he found a "secure medium" to give her the passcode under, wouldn't encrypting it be useless since he could just use that secure medium to send the original file? I think that was the whole point of public key encryption, in that there is no need for a secure medium of any sort, since the public key can only be used to encrypt a message.. that only the private key can decode. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. There are probably other flaws inherent in this encryption system mentioned.. I can imagine that you won't even be able to unencrypt the original message. :) ---------- From: Dale Thorn[SMTP:dthorn at gte.net] Sent: Friday, August 30, 1996 5:00 AM To: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Encryption It appears to me that PGP encryption et al is really 1940's technology, albeit fancied up by 1990's computers. Why use keys and cyphers when all you should have to do is maximize the randomization of bits in a script? Big computers should not be able to de-randomize such encoding, since the permutations/combinations would be astronomical after just a half-dozen or so random number initializations, as well as the fact that the bits are relatively undifferentiated (just ones and zeros) and are not maintained with their original bytes, words, paragraphs, or pages? <> From nobody at replay.com Fri Aug 30 16:19:19 1996 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 07:19:19 +0800 Subject: www.anonymizer.com Message-ID: <199608302014.WAA08916@basement.replay.com> At 06:12 AM 8/30/96 -1000, NetSurfer wrote: > >I have found and reported to the anonymizer that it does not >always protect you against perl-based cgi scripts. I did this by >accessing a form-based email page (based on Matt's script) which includes >environment variable values in the msg to the recipient. I didn't >receive any response back from them after I emailed them the info. Am I missing something here because isn't the easiest way around all of this is simply not to enter your personal info when setting up Netscape? Granted the page can pick up your ISP and what port you used, but so what? It can't get your name and email address. Use a newsreader such as Free Agent so there's no reason to enter your personal info. If there is a reason to respond to someone who's email is in on a particular page, then copy it and paste to your emailer... From bf578 at scn.org Fri Aug 30 16:29:41 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 07:29:41 +0800 Subject: Reprogramming Beepers? Message-ID: <199608302046.NAA03041@scn.org> > >Does anyone know how to reprogram a beeper to a new number. Please >Help Brendan Are you talking about the beeper's ESN or CAP code? changing it to another that is active? Or reconfiguring the beeper company's system? -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From dbell at maths.tcd.ie Fri Aug 30 16:33:40 1996 From: dbell at maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 07:33:40 +0800 Subject: Encryption In-Reply-To: <3226ADC6.6C87@gte.net> Message-ID: <9608302207.aa06439@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> In message <3226ADC6.6C87 at gte.net>, Dale Thorn writes: >It appears to me that PGP encryption et al is really 1940's technology, >albeit fancied up by 1990's computers. 1940s cyphers all had a secret key. Said key had to be forwarded to the recipient, usually via a courier. PGP doesn't need this. It is a hybrid system using IDEA to encrypt the message with a random session key and RSA to encrypt the session key. It also offers digital signatures, something 1940s cyphers didn't. Your proposal, however, looks as if it is impossible for the recipient to decrypt the message! Derek Bell From steve at miranova.com Fri Aug 30 16:49:54 1996 From: steve at miranova.com (Steven L Baur) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 07:49:54 +0800 Subject: Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age In-Reply-To: <199608300938.FAA08698@booz.bah.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Charley" == Charley Sparks writes: Charley> We could launch a mail-bomb campaign.. I am looking for the Charley> source for a mail bomb program. WinTel would be nice but I Charley> could use Linux This isn't rocket science. #! /bin/sh # call as: mailbomb victim at somewhere.sg while true; do mail $1 < /usr/local/bin/xemacs done Mail bombing is an evil thing -- the most likely victims of a mail bombing are innocent of wrong doing (such as the other users on the system where a script similar to the above is run on). -- steve at miranova.com baur Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message. What are the last two letters of "doesn't" and "can't"? Coincidence? I think not. From jf_avon at citenet.net Fri Aug 30 16:50:09 1996 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 07:50:09 +0800 Subject: Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: <9608302209.AB20820@cti02.citenet.net> On 30 Aug 96 at 5:38, Charley Sparks wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > To: tcmay at got.net, cypherpunks at toad.com > Date: Fri Aug 30 05:45:44 1996 > We could launch a mail-bomb campaign.. I am looking for the source > for a mail bomb program. WinTel would be nice but I could use Linux Far from my mind to commit such nuisance acts, but by simple curiosity, is there a mailbomb HOW-TO or FAQ floating around? jfa DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee; Limoges porcelain, silverware and crystal JFA Technologies, R&D consultants: physicists, technologists and engineers. PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 From root at anx0918.slip.appstate.edu Fri Aug 30 17:00:49 1996 From: root at anx0918.slip.appstate.edu (Phillip) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:00:49 +0800 Subject: (Fwd) Re: New file system In-Reply-To: <199608300642.CAA16656@unix.asb.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Deranged Mutant wrote: > I'm not on the list currently, but I this person is looking for info on > putting filesystems in other files and I no longer have the refs to > what some members of the list were doing. > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > At 12:38 PM 7/26/96 +0000, you wrote: > >On 26 Jul 96 at 3:07, free-dos at vpro.nl wrote: > > > >> I ask this here since I can't find anywhere else to ask this. > > > >> I'm looking for / thinking about writing a library that allows > >> for a file system to exist inside of a single file (much > >> like the microsoft OLE document). This is needed for a project > >> of mine. > > > >Check the Linux 2.0 distribution. I believe it allows this. There's > >also some cypherpunks talk recently about hiding encrypted > >filesystems in other files, so you may want to check the archives in > >hks.net. > > CONFIG_BLK_DEV_LOOP Enabling this option will allow you to mount a file as a file system. This is useful if you want to check an ISO9660 file system before burning the CD, or want to use floppy images without first writing them to floppy. This option also allows one to mount a filesystem with encryption. To use these features, you need a recent version of mount, such as the one found at ftp.win.tue.nl:/pub/linux/util/mount-2.5X.tar.gz. If you want to use encryption, you might also be interested in the (old) DES package ftp.funet.fi:/pub/OS/Linux/BETA/loop/des.1.tar.gz. Note that this loop device has nothing to do with the loopback device used for network connections from the machine to itself. Most users will answer N here. > > Could you give me a good site to look into this? I tried coast.net with > no luck since the source is spread over a good number of directorys. > > > > >> Requirements: > >> > >> Mulitiple files and a hiarchial directory reside in a single > >> file. > >> > >> The file starts out as small as possible then it becomes > >> bigger as more files and directorys are added to it. > >> > >> The files inside the file system can be added, renamed, > >> delete, moved, fragged. (there must be a way to defrag the > >> files) > >> > >> Each file in the file system can have mulitiple streams much > >> like the NTFS file system. > >> > >> End of requirements. > >> > >> Does anyone know of a library like this and if so where > >> if not does anyone have any ideas on how this could work. > >> Currently i'm looking at modiling the system after the > >> UNIX file system. > >> > >> Any ideas / comments please respond by email to: > >> hawk at idir.net. > >> > >> Use subject: 'Re: New file system' > >> > >> > >> e-mail: hawk at inf.net > > > > --- > No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" > Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl at unix.asb.com (root at magneto) > Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. > > A professor is one who talks in someone else's sleep. From jf_avon at citenet.net Fri Aug 30 17:24:52 1996 From: jf_avon at citenet.net (Jean-Francois Avon) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:24:52 +0800 Subject: **"OuR" Project press release** (fwd) Message-ID: <9608302225.AA22270@cti02.citenet.net> On 30 Aug 96 at 12:25, jim bell wrote: > Recommendation for the next one: Rather than try to brute force an > LEO from about sea level, how about lofting the rocket by balloon > up to a starting altitude of, say, 100,000 feet, and letting'er'rip > from there? (this is probably not a new technique...) This technique has been used a lot. But bear in mind that the goal of the whole operation was to perfect their knowledge of the technology of rockets. Launching from a balloon born platform is not a triviality. Ground launch enables much more control in the super critical phase called "countdown and launch", where a lot of the failures occurs. When they will have mastered theses phases, then, the'll start thinking about an airborne launch platform. If you want to learn about it, there is a rocketry group on Usenet. >From there, you can ask directions for various sites, mainly outside of north america, where they experiment with homebuilt liquid-liquid, liquid-solid and other engines. There is also quite a large movement in USA, but I did not find (a year ago), sites that were as experimental as the europeans (Belgians?) ones. It seems that the US sites are more talking about using some commercially built motors, mainly using liquid-solid technology. Have fun jfa DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee; Limoges porcelain, silverware and crystal JFA Technologies, R&D consultants: physicists, technologists and engineers. PGP keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 From youssefy at ucla.edu Fri Aug 30 17:38:12 1996 From: youssefy at ucla.edu (youssefy at ucla.edu) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:38:12 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks Lite Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830224901.006adf2c@pop.ben2.ucla.edu> There was a posting by someone about three weeks ago that gave the address for a person who ran a filtered version of the cypherpunks list, can someone please repost that information? From jad at dsddhc.com Fri Aug 30 17:41:08 1996 From: jad at dsddhc.com (John Deters) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:41:08 +0800 Subject: Dr. Vulis is a test, right? [was RE: Desubscribe] Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960830224855.00355560@labg30> I can't believe it any more. On Fri, 30 Aug 96 02:47:21 EDT, Dr. (of what, pray tell?) Vulis blathers first: >> > If you don't have the brains to forge the From:, then you have no >> > business being subscribed to any mailing list. and then again: >Whoever uses the term "spam" in derogatory manner, opposes free >speech and deserves to be caned. First, accusing someone of stupidity for not having learned how to telnet to an SMTP server is a bit harsh, especially since the guy might be stuck behind a firewall that mungs his addresses AFTER his messages goes out -- not that Dr. V bothered to find out before the accusation. Second, suggesting anyone be caned for their political beliefs (and resultant speech) is quite obviously NOT the action taken by someone who defends free speech. Again, Dr. V. put those beliefs in his words through his flawed logic. It's like watching a KKKlucker yelling, "you have no right to say that we don't support free speech," and not getting it. And for what -- the thoughtcrime of calling Dr. V a spammer? Hmm. About the closest I can come to finding a "crime" here is trademark infringement. I'm sure Hormel is following this closely. All of this is merely annoying. But slamming Tim May because of his heritage? "criminal Arm*nian grandparents"? Now it's a crime not only to call Dr. V a spammer, but to have ancestors born someplace his ancestors taught him to not approve of. (Can you say "racism", kids? Sure. I knew you could.) When I first started reading this list, it was about the time Jim Bell was espousing the A.P. theories, and I thought him a fool for it. I put his name in my filter, sending his posts to the trash. More and more, I found myself heading to the trash bin to follow a thread that Jim was contributing to. Valuable contributions, mind you, not just more of his A.P. stuff. Of course, I ended up removing him from my filter. (For missing that month of your posts, Jim, I owe you an apology.) At that time, I realized a few things: Filters certainly aren't the answer; and everybody can come up with valuable contributions. Anyway, my current status is to have the filters set to remove posts with the words [NOISE] or [OFF-TOPIC] somewhere in the headers. It helps weed out stuff that really isn't why I'm here reading this list. Given that I feel that even Dr. Vulis might possibly contribute something of value to this list at some unspecified time in the future, I have come to the conclusion that the only solution is to ask him to change his e-mail name field to: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [NOISE] ) until such time as he can actually come up with something useful to say to the rest of us. Maybe he could even throw in an [-L18] tag, if he's going to continue to [spit | fuck | fart] every posting that leaps through his screen. [ Note to everyone else: that's SARCASM there, hope you got it! ] So, my original question is: is there really a Dr. Dmitri Vulis (KOTM) somewhere? Or is he just some made-up straw man, created by Tim May, John Gilmore and Eric Hughes for their personal amusement, and to add a spot of controversy so we can feel like we're not preaching to the choir with every pro-cypher posting? I often thought that was the case with David Sternlight as well. Or is Dr. Vulis really best-buddies with Tim May, and his way of showing affection is to "fart in his general direction" with every post? If he exists, I pity the unsuspecting students who wander into his class who might not have the genetic makeup he approves of. And now I *completely* understand tenure. John (soon-to-be-spit-upon,no-doubt) Deters. -- J. Deters "Captain's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull." +-------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: jad at dsddhc.com (work) jad at pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | PGP Key ID: 768 / 15FFA875 | +-------------------------------------------------------+ From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Aug 30 18:13:21 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:13:21 +0800 Subject: MUD anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199608302312.SAA12806@manifold.algebra.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > (Before defenders of these games jump in with comments about how useful and > enjoyable these games are, sure, some knowledge is gained. But huge > differences are obvious. A conclusion drawn from playing these games will > not hold up in the real world. I expect the same is true of "assassination > politics.") By the way, has anyone noticed how injections of money from the Central Bank in the Monopoly game fuel inflation? The interesting thing is, in Monopoly inflation does not seem to be as destructive as in real life... - Igor. From jya at pipeline.com Fri Aug 30 18:51:59 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:51:59 +0800 Subject: GAK by TIS Message-ID: <199608302326.XAA02261@pipe2.t1.usa.pipeline.com> Network World, August 26, 1996, Page 1 Key-escrow firewall ready to leave the country by Ellen Messner, Washington D.C. After months of talk about exporting encryption software, there will finally be action. Fulfilling the Clinton Administration's vow to end export restrictions on strong encryption products if they use key-escrow features, the U.S. government this week is expected to permit Trusted Information Systems, Inc. (TIS) to sell its Data Encryption Standard (DES)-equipped Gauntlet firewall overseas. Such exports will allow U.S.-based companies to standardize on an encrypting firewall for all global operations. The Department of Commerce is granting mass-market export status to a specific version of the Gauntlet firewall based on a key-escrow scheme that gives U.S. law enforcement access to a master key for decrypting IP datastreams. The master key for each firewall will reside at Oakland, Calif.-based Source Files, Inc., the third-party private key holder chosen under the government's groundbreaking plan. Vice President Al Gore has supported the Defense Department's view that unbreakable encryption should be controlled because it is a powerful weapon and subject to misuse by criminals and terrorists. However, Gore recently said the government will allow mass export of 64-bit encryption products if they use key escrow. The agreement with TIS is the first evidence that the policy is being put into practice. Until now, few companies other than banks could get the State Department and National Security Agency (NSA) to let them export 56-bit and higher Data Encryption Standard (DES) products. Only 40-bit products, easily broken with available computer resources, were allowed for mass-market export. "We're on the verge of a major shift," said TIS president Steve Walker last week. TIS expects to unveil a raft of other vendors in the network industry that will license the TIS data recovery method for accessing data encrypted with a session key. The government is also considering approving other third- party keyholders in addition to Source File, which has traditionally held source code in escrow on behalf of companies worried about the long-term viability of their suppliers. Just say no Not all are key-escrow converts, however. In fact, it is painfully clear that corporations will continue to balk at the prospect of their encryption keys being held by a third party or the government. Netherlands-based Royal Dutch Petroleum Co., with hundreds of subsidiaries and offices all over the world, is looking to ditch dedicated private lines and send encrypted IP traffic over the Internet instead. The State Department's mass-market license for the Gauntlet means TIS can compete to provide Royal Dutch Petroleum with its encrypting firewall. But Homayoon Tajalli, TIS vice president, acknowledged that the Dutch oil conglomerate is unwilling to hand its encryption keys over to Source File. Hence, as part of negotiations with the U.S. and Dutch governments, Royal Dutch Petroleum agreed to operate its own data recovery center for the Gauntlet master keys. Royal Dutch Petroleum would hand over the master encryption keys to to Dutch law enforcement, which in turn would give the keys to U.S. authorities "if the government shows up with a valid warrant," Tajalli said. TIS went to great lengths to broker the international arrangement, and hopes that not every firewall export will entail such laborious negotiations. Some firewall users are extremely ambiguous about the government's key-escrow plan. "I'm not sure I want the government to have that ability," said Doug Miller, information systems manager at Bluestone Corp. "At all cost, we've got to keep the government out of business operations." [End] Thanks to BC. From jwilk at iglou.com Fri Aug 30 19:43:45 1996 From: jwilk at iglou.com (Blake Wehlage) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 10:43:45 +0800 Subject: anon.penet.fi closing down Message-ID: what would be alternatives to anon.penet.fi..... ========================================== Blake Wehlage ��� R�V�L����� B�+ ��mP@� � ��� Goto: http://members.iglou.com/jwilk From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Aug 30 20:03:18 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:03:18 +0800 Subject: libertarian-punks@toad.com Message-ID: <199608310037.TAA13127@manifold.algebra.com> how about creating a mailing list with the captioned name? - Igor. From whgiii at amaranth.com Fri Aug 30 20:32:12 1996 From: whgiii at amaranth.com (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:32:12 +0800 Subject: Intel to rule the basic crypto engine market? In-Reply-To: <199608300330.UAA14539@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <199608310131.UAA01464@mailhub.amaranth.com> In <199608300330.UAA14539 at mail.pacifier.com>, on 08/29/96 at 08:27 PM, jim bell said: >At 03:56 AM 8/24/96 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: >>Intresting but..., In the era of ITAR, GAK, Key Escrows,Clipper,& FileGate >>do we really want to put all our eggs in one basket? And that basket being >>based on hardware? IMHO I don't see Intell standing up to the government any >>more than Netscape, Mircosoft, IBM, or Lotus has. I have serious doubts that >>our "beloved" goverment will alow any standard to be adopted that does not >>allow them access whenever they please. I personally do not run any security >>code on my machines that I do not have the >>source for & have instpected. >The one kind of standardization in the crypto market that we truly need, >NOW, is a standard format/protocol so that crypto telephones from all >manufacturers can talk to each other. The last thing we need is a >tower-of-Babel situation, which would be even worse than the VHS/Beta wars >of 20-10 years ago. But who's standard? I constantly here cries for standardization from those in the computer industry. I for one am against it. I like having choices, choices that are taken away by standardization. In the area of crypto telephones I am definitely against standardization. If I wish to have an encrypted telephone connection my primary concern is that it is secure not whether or not I can communicate to every other phone out there. I fear that an organized attempt to standardize will only bring about a 'weak' protocol for encrypted communications. One only has to look at what other standardization atemps have produced. Look at the works of IBM, Lotus, Microsoft, Netscape, all who have a vested interest in international sales. They have all to often tried to pawn off weak security in favor of the $$ from international sales. A tower-of-babel is exactly what we need. The free market at its finest. The lemmings and the ignorant will use products from the "major" manufactures falsely believeing that they are secure. Those of us truly concerned with our security will have other choices to make. Just my 2 cents, -- ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!! Merlin Beta Test Site - WarpServer SMP Test Site Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts Get Work Place Shell for Windows!! PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii at amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info ----------------------------------------------------------- From stu at zilker.net Fri Aug 30 21:15:53 1996 From: stu at zilker.net (Stu Barrett) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:15:53 +0800 Subject: **"OuR" Project press release** (fwd) Message-ID: <199608310209.VAA11299@oak.zilker.net> Jim, as your back of the envelope calculations indicate LEO is very difficult. Luckily, the members of ouR team know this, and have no naive desire to achieve such a goal. Don't know how you thought they did.... Stu ----------------- Stu Barrett e-mail: stu at zilker.net Phone: 512-255-6052 "Out the transceiver, down the coax, through the router, down the fiber, off another router, down the T1, past the firewall.....nothing but Net." From bf578 at scn.org Fri Aug 30 21:48:19 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:48:19 +0800 Subject: www.anonymizer.com Message-ID: <199608310245.TAA21234@scn.org> > > >> >>I have found and reported to the anonymizer that it does not >>always protect you against perl-based cgi scripts. I did this by >>accessing a form-based email page (based on Matt's script) which includes >>environment variable values in the msg to the recipient. I didn't >>receive any response back from them after I emailed them the info. > > > Am I missing something here because isn't the easiest way around all of this is simply not to enter your personal info when setting up Netscape? Granted the page can pick up your ISP and what port you used, but so what? It can't get your name and em ail address. Use a newsreader such as Free Agent so there's no reason to enter your personal info. If there is a reason to respond to someone who's email is in on a particular page, then copy it and paste to your emailer... > > I don't like getting the junk-email after visiting some pages, telling me what a great service they have (Hey I was just there!!), etc. -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From rwright at adnetsol.com Fri Aug 30 21:50:50 1996 From: rwright at adnetsol.com (Ross Wright) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:50:50 +0800 Subject: Intel to rule the basic crypto engine market? Message-ID: <199608310237.TAA10525@adnetsol.adnetsol.com> On Or About: 30 Aug 96, 19:44, William H. Geiger III misspelled: goverment (government) alow (allow) here cries (Should be hear) atemps (attempts) instpected (inspected) believeing (believing) But, he is getting better. From nobody at cypherpunks.ca Fri Aug 30 22:41:10 1996 From: nobody at cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:41:10 +0800 Subject: www.anonymizer.com In-Reply-To: <199608302014.WAA08916@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <199608310328.UAA19396@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> > > > At 06:12 AM 8/30/96 -1000, NetSurfer wrote: > > > >I have found and reported to the anonymizer that it does not > >always protect you against perl-based cgi scripts. I did this by > >accessing a form-based email page (based on Matt's script) which includes > >environment variable values in the msg to the recipient. I didn't > >receive any response back from them after I emailed them the info. > > > Am I missing something here because isn't the easiest way around all > of this is simply not to enter your personal info when setting up Netscape? > Granted the page can pick up your ISP and what port you used, but so what? > It can't get your name and email address. Use a newsreader such as Free > Agent so there's no reason to enter your personal info. If there is a reason > to respond to someone who's email is in on a particular page, then copy it > and paste to your emailer... Please hit your carriage return once in a while. I had to format your post manually so I could read it. If the destination server can pick the port you used, there's a good chance they can figure out your account name, and therefore your email address. Many sites these days run identd, which in my opinion is a simply annoying daemon. Most of those that run it run it because some of their users, most of whom couldn't find two brain cells to rub together, whine about their precious IRC servers not allowing them on without it, instead of simply using IRC servers that will. From Adamsc at io-online.com Fri Aug 30 23:56:27 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:56:27 +0800 Subject: Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: <19960831045604375.AAB197@IO-ONLINE.COM> On 30 Aug 1996 14:48:34 -0700, Steven L Baur wrote: >Charley> We could launch a mail-bomb campaign.. I am looking for the >Charley> source for a mail bomb program. WinTel would be nice but I >Charley> could use Linux >This isn't rocket science. >#! /bin/sh ># call as: mailbomb victim at somewhere.sg >while true; do > mail $1 < /usr/local/bin/xemacs >done Better yet, use ls -r /news to build a list of things to send. Nasty! >What are the last two letters of "doesn't" and "can't"? >Coincidence? I think not. BAD! Somebody shoot him! - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From Adamsc at io-online.com Fri Aug 30 23:58:16 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:58:16 +0800 Subject: Mimic Function Stego Programs? Message-ID: <19960831045604375.AAA197@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:18 +0100, Andy Brown wrote: >> dictionary: 1=sofa 0=couch >> input: The couch is very comfortable >> output (0): The sofa is very comfortable. >> output (1): The couch is very comfortable. > >This idea generalises well from human to computer assembly languages. >You often have a choice of which instruction to use to achieve your goal, >and a stego assembler could quite easily be constructed. I *like* it! - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From bf578 at scn.org Sat Aug 31 00:06:17 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:06:17 +0800 Subject: ~~ Bankers' Secrets ~~ Message-ID: <199608310253.TAA23490@scn.org> >From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Aug 30 19:41:53 1996 X-FreePort-Flags: Received: from emin02.mail.aol.com (emin02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.51]) by scn.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA20565 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by emin02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA26649 for bf578 at scn.org; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:36:32 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:36:32 -0400 Message-Id: <199608310236.WAA26649 at emin02.mail.aol.com> From: Mailer-daemon at aol.com Subject: Returned Mail: Undeliverable To: bf578 at scn.org The mail you sent could not be delivered to: 550 massmail at aol.com is not a known user The text you sent follows: >From bf578 at scn.org Fri Aug 30 22:36:02 1996 Return-Path: bf578 at scn.org Received: from scn.org (scn.org [198.137.188.24]) by emin02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA26547 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:36:01 -0400 Received: (from bf578 at localhost) by scn.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA20156; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199608310240.TAA20156 at scn.org> From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) To: massmail at aol.com Subject: Re: ~~ Bankers' Secrets ~~ Reply-To: bf578 at scn.org > >=======> BANKING SECRETS REVEALED!! <======= > >====> SAVE $100,000 & EARN 7% to 10% INTEREST <==== > >Dear Friend, > >Did you know that you can save up to $100,000 on the >biggest investment in your life? For MANY Americans they >have a dream to one day own their home. When that dream is >reached, they spend the rest of their life paying that dream Funny, they didn't leave an email address? Probably don't even know what lists this is be posted to! For the money you probably get info on how to call your mortgage company and find out if makeing smaller/earlier payments will reduce the principle and the interest re-caculated. Then invest the money you save to earn interest! I know several people who do this. You don't make extra payments just divde your $1000 month (or whatever) into 3 $333.33 payments. You need a sizable principle/long term loan for this to be worthwhile, and of course a properly worded mortgage. -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From Adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 31 00:32:42 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:32:42 +0800 Subject: Intel to rule the basic crypto engine market? Message-ID: <19960831053943812.AAA111@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:42:31 -0700, Ross Wright wrote: >goverment (government) >alow (allow) >here cries (Should be hear) >atemps (attempts) >instpected (inspected) >believeing (believing) You know, we've all realized that even an anal retentive can use a spell checker on someone else's posts. Do we really need continual proof? - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From patrickbc at juno.com Sat Aug 31 01:49:33 1996 From: patrickbc at juno.com (patrick b cummings) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:49:33 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19960830.014955.9606.3.patrickbc@juno.com> Their is a half decent credit card generater that comes with aohell. From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Sat Aug 31 02:15:40 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:15:40 +0800 Subject: Phoneco vs X-Phone Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960831063510.00348e9c@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 17:45 20/08/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: > >The fact is, LD phone is a business that, like it or not, is going to shrink >drastically _in_terms_of_dollars_, simply because the cost of that service >will likewise, go down. That's life. Perhaps the answer to this interesting debate between Vipul and Jim lies in looking at what happened to computers as they became cheaper. There was a time when someone at IBM predicted that the needs of the entire world would be met by about 50 computers or so, but now that computers are almost free (as Jim argues bandwidth has become), we have almost that many in a single household (counting all the video games, watches, car and appliance electronics). People found new ways to use computers, so they used far more of them. So much so, that the computer industry overall did not shrink, but grew. There was a time when you bought "time" on a computer, as you do in long-distance telephony. Changing over to computer purchase didn't kill the industry. So if you were sold a size of bandwidth pipe instead of how many hours you actually use it, and eliminated the cost of accounting for time usage, I think we'd all be happier -- except maybe the IBMs of telecom. Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in Sat Aug 31 02:15:50 1996 From: amehta at giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Arun Mehta) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:15:50 +0800 Subject: DON'T Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960831063502.0033b25c@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> At 17:55 29/08/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >Personally, if this crackdown in Singapore happens, I intend to post >various anti-Singapore and anti-Lee Kwan Yew & Sons screeds to various >newsgroups that Singaporans might like to read. Then, if the Yew Dynasty >decides to pull the plug, it'll be to more and more groups. There are two sides to this: after all, it is the Singaporeans who finally have to sort out this problem with their government, and denying them the Usenet platform for discussion would only hinder that process. Then again, inappropriate postings are the bane of the Internet: the consensus on which the Net functions relies heavily on people not posting inappropriately. Of course, posting anti LKY stuff on a Singapore newsgroup might be perfectly appropriate -- it is the "more and more groups" part I am worried about. I quite frankly disapprove of the mail-bomb suggestions made on the list. Accessing the Internet is hard enough without these additional roadblocks. Mail-bombing one person on a server punishes everybody else on that server too. We need to work with the people in Singapore on this, not make enemies of them. I'm glad that the situation in Singapore is attracting much attention on this list, and that people want to do something about it. China is seriously interested in the experiment, and India will be too: the law here holds the ISPs responsible for ensuring that nothing objectionable and obscene is carried by them, and what simpler way to comply than to simply use the Singapore proxy. Right now, the law isn't being enforced, but soon some headline-seeking politician will point out this out, and the problem will be with us. So, it is important to nip the Singapore experiment in the bud. However, I think that the constructive approach, one which furthers the Net, "routes around", would work better. For instance, I'd love to see some smart venture capitalist fund a project that makes use of surplus, off-peak bandwidth on a transponder on any of the myriad satellites floating over Asia to download Web pages on request. Ideally, I should be able to send via pgp and anonymous remailer a request for a page, which would soon come beamed down unencrypted via satellite. No more waiting hours for the latest version of Netscape to download, and then restarting from scratch every time the line drops. Also, goodbye censorship. Even if the government decided to cut off Internet access completely, I'd still be able to receive what others such as Tim think might be of interest to me. How would this generate revenue? Well, there could be advertising appended to select pages, for instance. In any case, with so much uncertainity about how commerce on the net will work, and in good Internet tradition a la Netscape, it would probably be smarter to start with a free service, and figure out later how to make money from it, once it becomes popular. In a few years, satellite-based Internet access will become widespread and affordable. However, the next few years are really crucial. Governments are still trying to figure out how to deal with the Net, frame legislation, etc. This would be a good time to present them with a fait accompli. Hong Kong will revert to China next year. What better gift to the nervous freedom fighters there, than to help them with their Internet access? Maybe Hong Kong will take over China, instead of the other way around... I remember in Sculley's book "Odyssey: from Pepsi to Apple" he mentions how Steve Jobs finally convinced him to join Apple by asking if he wanted to sell sugared water for the rest of his life, or would he rather change the world. The Internet presents opportunities like that to far more people, and this, IMHO, is one of them: any would-be Sculleys out there? Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta at cpsr.org http://www.cerfnet.com/~amehta/ finger amehta at cerfnet.com for public key From patrickbc at juno.com Sat Aug 31 02:16:30 1996 From: patrickbc at juno.com (patrick b cummings) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:16:30 +0800 Subject: encryption Message-ID: <19960830.020300.9606.7.patrickbc@juno.com> Will pay $5.00 for a good encryption program. Write to patrickbc at juno.com From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 31 03:29:08 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:29:08 +0800 Subject: Encryption Message-ID: At 8:52 PM 8/30/96, Benjamin Suto wrote: >I'm probably the last person who could mention something intelligible >here, but assuming this encryption algorithm works, and Joe wants to give >Jane a file, how would he tell her how to decrypt it? There are two parts to this: the algorithm and the key. For a strong cipher, the algorithm can be told to Jane...there is no real security in "security through obscurity." The remaining part is the _key_. It can be communicated in person, prior to sending the message (or after, though this is of course a less interesting situation). Or by a trusted courier, again prior to the encrypted communication. (A common thought error newcomers make is to ask "If the key can be communicated securely, why is encryption needed?" Think of military communications--the keys are established before a mission, then units can communicate securely, even over insecure radio channels.) Public key cryptography allows Joe and Jane to communicate without any exchange of private key material. Joe encrypts a message to Jane's public key, then sends it by some channel. Jane can decrypt it, using her private key. >If he found a "secure medium" to give her the passcode under, wouldn't >encrypting it be useless since he could just use that secure medium to >send the original file? As I said, think of _time value_. It is often necessary to exchange key material (or get public keys in advance of a communication) before a message sending is needed. Also, key materials may be exchanged via reasonably-secure channels, such as FedEx delivery, and then the Internet may be used for actual messages. While FedEx may be vulnerable to interception in certain cases, clearly this is an improvement over using no encryption. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From jleonard at divcom.umop-ap.com Sat Aug 31 03:35:17 1996 From: jleonard at divcom.umop-ap.com (Jon Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:35:17 +0800 Subject: MUD anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9608310823.AA00984@divcom.umop-ap.com> Tim May wrote: >At 4:27 PM 8/30/96, Jon Leonard wrote: >>Tim May wrote: [difficulty of coding crypto, even for a MUD] >>I don't think it's quite that hard, so I tried to implement asymetric key >>cryptography: >> >>20 minutes, to write and debug: > >Well, cryptography (per se) is the most basic, and in some sense simplest, >part of the whole thing: the "semantics" of crypto are well-understood >(even if not to the snake oil salesmen and repeated inventors of one time >pads). > >Consider that PGP was basically a realization (others existed, natch) of >ideas that were almost 20 years old. > >Some much harder (to me) protocols: fair coin tosses, blinded coins, >oblivious transfers, digital cash in all its many forms (and issues), >DC-Nets, and so on. Sure, bits and pieces are codable--and have been--but a >comprehensive package is tough to write. Wei Dai's and Matt Blaze's >libraries are excellent, I hear, but are not targetted at creating these >building blocks for crypto anarchy. Thanks for the list of useful protocols to consider. I'll wind up getting the rest from Applied Cryptography and your Cyphernomicon if I don't get any more input. Some of these are fairly easy to fake, though. Fair coin tosses, for example: Assume a perfectly trustworthy escrow agent. (A bad assumption in real life, but workable on a MUD, where it's the server.) Tell the agent to wait until all parties have contributed a bit, and then announce the XOR of the bits. As long as an individual has picked a bit randomly, and given it to the escrow agent securely, the result is random. That doesn't answer the questions of integration into a game, or how make a crypto anarchy out of it. I'll just have to try things and see what works. >Your code is admirable. I did the same thing in Mathematica, a few years >ago when I was still interested in the innards of RSA. (It took me longer >than 20 minutes to write, though...but I also got to play around with big >primes, the basic number theory stuff, etc. A useful learning experience.) My code doesn't do nearly as much as you seem to think it does. All of its "security" relies on a mutually trusted interpreter, which isn't a bad assumption on a MUD. I'm cheating on the cryptography, but I think I can get away with it for the purposes of a game. And, of course, I didn't comment it, document it, or integrate it into the rest of the game. >But implementing more recent cryptographic building blocks seems more than >an order of magnitude harder. (If you can implement a reasonably robust >bank-digicash system in 10 x 20 minutes = 3.5 hours, I'll be impressed. >Merely speccing what it should do and how it should behave in various >situations would take far, far longer than this. Just my view. Maybe I'm >wrong.) Even if it's more than that much harder, it's still worth doing. I'll see how long it takes, but I'll try for robustness instead of coding speed. >>It is a big project, but the big part is writing the MUD, not adding the >>crypto-anarchy stuff to it. I'm writing a MUD anyway, and have been off >>and on for over a year. Mark Grant's message made me think about what it >>would take to add the features I wasn't already planning on. > >Depends on what you mean by "crypto-anarchy stuff." As I see it, it means >building a reasonably robust economic system, a market or agora with >various transaction mechanisms built in. Sort of a cross between "SimCity" >and Vinge's "True Names." "True Names" is a better fit than SimCity for what I'm imagining. In the absence of any better ideas, it'll borrow a lot from LPmud too. I've considered a game-run anonymous market, with bid and asked prices akin to the stock market equivalents. Characters would have the money (or whatever) unavailable until the bid or ask was withdrawn, and clearing would be automatic in case of a match. It's more appealing if the market is magically provided by a wizard of some reputation, but game-run is simpler to start with. >--Tim May Jon Leonard From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 31 03:40:51 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:40:51 +0800 Subject: Real-time key server Message-ID: <199608310844.BAA00275@toad.com> At 04:30 PM 8/27/96 DST, "Osborne, Rick" wrote: >In my research into keyservers, I find that none of them are realtime. > Sure, there are CGI interfaces to them, but that's not what I mean. I was >hoping for something along the line of a Finger or SMTP protocol, such that >a client connects to a host (say, keyserv.northgrum.com) on a certain port >(say, 5397) and goes through a realtime version of what is accomplished via >email. [...] >Why? Because: >1. I do not want to reinvent the wheel. >2. I would like to conform to existing standards. There are at least three shapes of wheel readily available. Some of the keyservers have had finger interfaces; there was one on wasabi.io.com for a while, though it may be inactive. John Perry may know where to find source code for it? Assuming you want PGP keys delivered in ASCII format, finger protocol should work just fine - you could easily enough hack your own fingerd server to live on the fingerd port, which gets PGP key files from a directory or database instead of from users' home directories, and run it on pgp.northgrum.com or whatever. You could even hack the existing finger code from {Free,Net}BSD, making sure to clean up any remaining sprintf()s and {*}get()s. Alternatively, a CGI query _is_ an easy way to do it, and there's existing code on the MIT keyserver that's blazingly fast. John Gilmore's SWAN project is using a DNS-based PGP key server; check out http://www.cygnus.com/~gnu/swan.html for more details. >Okay, I was told to not post to the list until I'd: >1. Lurked for a month, >2. Figured out who Detweiler was, >3. Found out about BlackNet and DC Nets, >4. Learned of at least three of David Chaum's innovations. >And at that point "[I] may be ready to post [my] first comments." > >Well, dammit, I can't wait that long. I need help now. I've only been on >for 2 weeks, I have no clue who Detweiler is (other than the >welcome message I haven't heard two words about him/her/it), and I know >enough to sound stupid about the other stuff. But if you still think I'm >worthy of listeneing to, then read on. Three out of four ain't bad, and Detweiler's been using his alias on the list for a couple of years and acting quite civilized :-) Some good reading sources are Bruce Schneier's book "Applied Cryptography" and Tim May's "Cyphernomicon" piece which is on the web somewhere. Also, asking for pointers to existing work does categorize you with the clueful minority..... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 31 03:42:25 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:42:25 +0800 Subject: PGP Comments Considered Occasionally Harmful Re: Pronto making a comment Message-ID: <199608310847.BAA00304@toad.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To cypherpunks, Re: mbabcock and Jim Ray's discussion. >> How did you get Pronto to do a comment? > >I added a "comment=" in my config.txt ;) ... the old fashionned way. ... >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 2.6.3i >Charset: ascii >Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ Note that the comment makes traffic analysis much easier. Sure, you can send your mail through five different remailers, but if each layer of PGP has your home page URL or some other distinctive Comment:, it's traceable. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.7.1 Comment: PGP available outside U.S.A. at ftp.ox.ac.uk iQBVAwUBMif6ZvthU5e7emAFAQHh2AH/R4KY4MPQBjF2XCeeFCY5XPVQTePvPwT6 5MAAzyTL/8RwU0Ul7G7rQgeb/08CxqetC0Ry22AhMV8uEV6DgTbcLg== =4Ttw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From billstewart at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 31 04:14:28 1996 From: billstewart at worldnet.att.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:14:28 +0800 Subject: FWD: Re: Tiger? In-Reply-To: <5jITplH.padrote@delphi.com> Message-ID: <3228029E.233F@worldnet.att.net> Bruce Schneier wrote in sci.crypt : > > In article <505bms$2m1 at kadri.ut.ee>, sander at haldjas.folklore.ee (Sander > Vesik) wrote: > > > Bruce Schneier (schneier at counterpane.com) wrote: > > : Tiger is a one-way hash function designed by Eli Biham and Ross Anderson. > > : It is optimized for a 64-bit chip (DEC Alpha). While interesting, Tiger > > : is very new, completely unanalyzed (except by the authors), and hence > > : still suspect. On the other hand, it's lightning fast on 64-bit machines. > > > > : Wired is displaying typical uneducated hype in its mention. I recommend > > : that everyone look at Tiger, but that no one use it yet. > > > > It is round 2.3 times faster than MD5 on my Pentium - so the part about > > high speed on the 32bit chips also seems to hold. > > It is certainly fast, and it is definitely not your typical snake oil. > It's just a mistake > to start using an algorithm immediately after it is published. > > Bruce > > ************************************************************************** > * Bruce Schneier APPLIED CRYPTOGRAPHY, 2nd EDITION is > * Counterpane Systems available. For info on a 15% > * schneier at counterpane.com discount offer, send me e-mail. > * > * For Blowfish C code, see ftp.ox.ac.uk:/pub/crypto/misc/blowfish.c.gz > ************************************************************************** -- # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # # Dispel Authority! From billstewart at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 31 04:29:24 1996 From: billstewart at worldnet.att.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:29:24 +0800 Subject: IDEA and timing attacks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3228024F.1C1A@worldnet.att.net> John Kelsey wrote in sci.crypt > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > [ To: sci.crypt ## Date: 08/24/96 03:11 am ## > Subject: IDEA and Timing Attacks ] > > I'm still kind-of recovering from this year's Crypto conference, but > I told several people I would post this. At the rump session this > year, I presented an arguably practical timing attack on many > implementations of IDEA. There are actually two attacks available, > but one requires extremely fine timing results. After I gave the > presentation, Willi Meier told me he had independently found the > same results, and had implemented the full attack (which I hadn't > yet done). > > There are two different attacks. The most practical is an > adaptive chosen-plaintext attack, which requires about 5*n*2^{16} > chosen plaintexts (read ``five n times two to the sixteenth''), > where the parameter n depends on the precision of timings available > and the timing variability of the implementation. The second attack > is ciphertext-only, but requires timing measurements precise enough > to detect the difference between a single multiply of a zero vs. > nonzero value. It requires about 5*n*2^{16} values, as well. > > The basic idea behind the attack is as follows: in many > implementations, a zero input into the multiply operation is handled > by an if statement, and so does not cause a multiply instruction to > actually be executed. The result on a 486 is that it is > significantly faster to multiply by a zero rather than a nonzero > value. This timing difference gives us a really nice way to learn > information about the internal values of the cipher. > > This presentation is necessarily not very good, since I can't embed > a diagram here. If you have a copy of _Applied Cryptography_, then > turn to the section on IDEA (page 321 in the hardback version of the > second edition). The diagram shows one round of IDEA, and then > (after the ellipses) the output transformation. > > The chosen plaintext attack works as follows: > > 1. Build a run of n*2^{16} chosen plaintexts, by choosing a > single value for X_1, and choosing n of each possible value for X_3, > with X_2 and X_4 taking on values at random. Time the encryption of > each batch of n plaintexts with the same X_3 value. > > 2. Choose a new value for X_1, and then build another run of > chosen plaintexts exactly as above. > > 3. For each of these two runs, if the value of Z_5 is not zero, > there should be a different value for X_3 that gives the lowest > encryption time. (These are the values that force the input to the > multiply with Z_5 to be zero.) Call these X_3 and X_3'. This gives > us two equations in two unknowns, and we can solve for it with a > 32-bit brute-force search. (There may be faster ways, as well.) > > (X_1 (*) Z_1) = (X_3 + Z_3) > (X_1'(*) Z_1) = (X_3'+ Z_3) > > We now have recovered Z_1 and Z_3. > > 4. Let's call the input to the multiply with Z_5 A. We can use > knowledge of Z_1 and Z_3 to force A to keep the same value. We then > choose three new runs of chosen plaintexts, each containing 2^{16} > batches of n plaintexts apiece. Each of these ensures that A and > X_2 are kept constant, so that we wind up three difference values > for A, X_2 and X_4 which correspond to zero inputs into the multiply > with Z_6. This means that we wind up with three equations in three > unknowns. > > (A (*) Z_5) + ((Z_2 + X_2 ) XOR (Z_4 (*) X_4 )) = 0 > (A' (*) Z_5) + ((Z_2 + X_2' ) XOR (Z_4 (*) X_4' )) = 0 > (A''(*) Z_5) + ((Z_2 + X_2'') XOR (Z_4 (*) X_4'')) = 0. > > This can be solved with a 48-bit brute force search (there are > probably faster ways). We now have 80 bits of IDEA's key, and can > brute-force search the remaining 48 bits. > > Note that this is actually an adaptive chosen-plaintext attack as > described. I'm pretty sure this can be turned into a proper > chosen-plaintext attack with some work, and I'll probably be hacking > on this in the next few weeks, as time allows. > > The ciphertext only attack is simpler in some ways. The first 32 > bits are extremely easy to recover--find the average time to encrypt > blocks with each value in their first and last 16 bits, and then > solve for the subkey values that would be necessary for those > multiplies to have zeros as their inputs. Next, we look for a > correlation between low encryption times and the values for Z_3 in > the output transformation that would result in zero inputs into the > previous round's MA box multiply. Finally, we attack the second > multiply in that MA box, using all four output values. The > approximate computational difficulty is 2^{48}, as before. > > There are other timing attacks on IDEA. We gave one in our paper at > Crypto this year (the one on related-key cryptanalysis of several > ciphers, by Bruce Schneier, David Wagner, and me), and the > related-key timing attack is where I got the idea to try a timing > attack on the whole cipher. > > All timing attacks are implementation-dependent to some extent. On > a Pentium, I suspect the timing attack will be considerably harder. > (One person I discussed the attack with said he thought it would > take longer to do the conditional branch for the if statement than > to do the multiply, so we might have zero multiplies taking more > rather than less time.) > > Most applications aren't really susceptible to timing attacks, > because of the way they're used. In addition, chosen-plaintext > attacks on block ciphers are pretty nicely thwarted by using CBC or > CFB modes. It is probably also possible to implement IDEA so that > it executes in constant time. I should point out that it is *NOT* > enough either to add random delays (which fall out if you add more > samples), nor to just get rid of the big timing difference with zero > inputs (though that will make timing attacks somewhat more > difficult). As long as internal (secret) information is being > leaked by timing, the cipher is probably vulnerable to some kind of > timing attack. > > --John Kelsey, jmkelsey at delphi.com / kelsey at counterpane.com > PGP 2.6 fingerprint = 4FE2 F421 100F BB0A 03D1 FE06 A435 7E36 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > iQCVAwUBMh7GKEHx57Ag8goBAQEqGQQApXRQUMWz3gpJIwGrLbVhcgcpSMXyrq0g > iTi2qjH7dJjmWugpLnbm18XHzOPZMKizdZ/gin1O3Rk89dXfqK4sIICwY3QmkwFR > ZQ2My4mTUn27ibjAjZTDuvxLXnqqoOFRrMUTQGIlMTCZdBooSWrif+pTLQbIsoPr > saHlDl2bWts= > =tWIq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maverick at thepentagon.com Sat Aug 31 05:19:44 1996 From: maverick at thepentagon.com (Sean Sutherland) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 20:19:44 +0800 Subject: Local Obscenity Regulations Message-ID: <19960831100811343.AAA184@maverick> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks at toad.com Date: Sat Aug 31 05:05:19 1996 If the BS coming from the Observer wasn't bad enough, check this out: http://www.cnet.com/Content/News/Files/0,16,2316,00.html Seems that Oregon has a ballot up for measure which will allow each city and county to decide for itself what obscenity is. I'm really not sure if this'll hold up or not, but I can see every hick sheriff in the state trying to get his fame by busting someone or something. - --- Sean Sutherland | GCS/C d- s+:+ a--- C+++ V--- P L E- W++ N++ K- w o PGP Key ID: E43E6489 | O-(++) M-- V PS+ PE++ Y++ PGP++(+) t--- 5+++ X++ R Vote Harry Browne '96 | b++ DI+ D+ G e- h! !r y -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: For key finger me or http://www2.interconnect.net/maverick iQEVAwUBMigOYVZoKRrkPmSJAQEUIwf+O/J8Uy9ZThNnnNagwROWj6uFww8Nuktf Y1m5rV3dGEyNxGVgaNh4hubI56vUodvk2RhjDrELvc7dwwxgDzK0YNvFk7vmzVFD o8IT/FjRwCIxx2OUwV2e8jnRiP3okTRecmRpeeL0GaUqulYSsijaTnjTofapARYU 18PpKJxrgJg5a07ybdU4B5JVJ7HzAraY/w32LIGTqRNhoRcORvcox0FDLnswNk7W ALh4dhCBMyQEhey/v/RfFwjtEBTIarjA6b8zUf+dFweRsNWZAdCugpNWNv6OE65h in1x5PFttn7ldad2c0PNN7fsu5NUCIjSQNljRsyTnkO1Jctp3Z02mw== =W3Vk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 31 06:02:37 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:02:37 +0800 Subject: Building the Singapore Free Press Message-ID: <199608311101.EAA01447@toad.com> Suppose you wanted to build a free press for a country like Singapore that has a government that doesn't want one - on the net, from the inside and outside. What tools would you need? Assume a Firewall Curtain proxy that can block sites and keywords but can't really block encryption. Also assume that the ISPs inside the Firewall Curtain can't do much to help you, given government licensing and other threats. How can you help people communicate with each other without interference? The Web isn't a bad tool for it, but it's easy to block specific web sites and specific host machines, so you'd need some combination of replication and DNS-manipulation to let sites change names conveniently and frequently. Has anybody developed a good DNS mechanism for reassigning namespace conveniently (e.g. a meet-me system allowing any machine to connect up to a given name, so anybody who wants to can be foobar23.remailer.net)? There are web conferencing tools that would be a decent user interface. You'd need some mechanism for anonymous submissions; remailers and web-based forms both work. Journalists have a long history under pseudonyms in British colonies and other non-free territory :-) You'd need a mechanism for finding the news from inside SG; search engines like AltaVista can pretty much handle that except that you need a method for sending encrypted requests, so the Firewall Curtain can't block them and the government can't tell what you're searching for. Perhaps an SSL-protected form with a CGI to submit to AltaVista? Does anybody know the protocols of the Firewall Curtain well enough to slide things into the cache? (This is an httpd hacking question....) What other tools would be useful? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi Sat Aug 31 09:29:58 1996 From: morgan at keilin.helsinki.fi (Joel Morgan) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:29:58 +0800 Subject: singapore and penet Message-ID: <199608311221.PAA05193@keilin.helsinki.fi> There is a report in a Helsinki newspaper (Helsingin Sanomat 31 Aug 1996, p A11) that the Singapore government has asked Finland to help them obtain the name of a person who posted via anon.penet.fi to usenet. Apparently the messages in question criticize the strict laws in Singapore and were signed using the name of the former prime minister Lee Kwan Yew. -- ===================================================================== Joel.Morgan at Helsinki.FI http://blues.helsinki.fi/~morgan ===================================================================== From qut at netcom.com Sat Aug 31 09:57:56 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:57:56 +0800 Subject: anon.penet.fi closing down Message-ID: <199608311504.IAA01014@netcom21.netcom.com> ! what would be alternatives to anon.penet.fi..... ! ========================================== ! Blake Wehlage ! ��� R�V�L����� B�+ ��mP@� � ��� ! Goto: http://members.iglou.com/jwilk Gee, aren't you already using an account you started with fake personal data? From wb8foz at nrk.com Sat Aug 31 10:03:28 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:03:28 +0800 Subject: WashPost report on airline security plan Message-ID: <199608311514.LAA15443@nrk.com> Today's WashPost reports that one plan the new commission is studying is a massive Big Brother database of any&everyone boarding a plane. ""Suspects"" will then be subjected to extra attention. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From qut at netcom.com Sat Aug 31 10:03:31 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:03:31 +0800 Subject: Waging War On Singapore Message-ID: <199608311513.IAA02186@netcom21.netcom.com> So what is the information that the Singapore dictatorship is trying to ban? Whatever it is, the Singapore internal networks should be flooded with it. How to get an internet account in Singapore, preferably anonymous? From qut at netcom.com Sat Aug 31 10:22:10 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:22:10 +0800 Subject: [FUCKHEAD] Re: Dr. Vulis is a test, right? [was RE: Desubscribe] In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960830224855.00355560@labg30> Message-ID: <199608311526.IAA03410@netcom21.netcom.com> ON ! ! I can't believe it any more. ! ! On Fri, 30 Aug 96 02:47:21 EDT, Dr. (of what, pray tell?) Vulis blathers first: ! ! >> > If you don't have the brains to forge the From:, then you have no ! >> > business being subscribed to any mailing list. ! ! and then again: ! ! >Whoever uses the term "spam" in derogatory manner, opposes free ! >speech and deserves to be caned. ! ! First, accusing someone of stupidity for not having learned how to telnet to ! an SMTP server is a bit harsh, especially since the guy might be stuck ! behind a firewall that mungs his addresses AFTER his messages goes out -- ! not that Dr. V bothered to find out before the accusation. ! ! Second, suggesting anyone be caned for their political beliefs (and ! resultant speech) is quite obviously NOT the action taken by someone who ! defends free speech. Again, Dr. V. put those beliefs in his words through ! his flawed logic. ! ! It's like watching a KKKlucker yelling, "you have no right to say that we ! don't support free speech," and not getting it. ! ! And for what -- the thoughtcrime of calling Dr. V a spammer? Hmm. About ! the closest I can come to finding a "crime" here is trademark infringement. ! I'm sure Hormel is following this closely. ! ! All of this is merely annoying. But slamming Tim May because of his ! heritage? "criminal Arm*nian grandparents"? Now it's a crime not only to ! call Dr. V a spammer, but to have ancestors born someplace his ancestors ! taught him to not approve of. (Can you say "racism", kids? Sure. I knew ! you could.) ! ! When I first started reading this list, it was about the time Jim Bell was ! espousing the A.P. theories, and I thought him a fool for it. I put his ! name in my filter, sending his posts to the trash. More and more, I found ! myself heading to the trash bin to follow a thread that Jim was contributing ! to. Valuable contributions, mind you, not just more of his A.P. stuff. Of ! course, I ended up removing him from my filter. (For missing that month of ! your posts, Jim, I owe you an apology.) ! ! At that time, I realized a few things: Filters certainly aren't the answer; ! and everybody can come up with valuable contributions. ! ! Anyway, my current status is to have the filters set to remove posts with ! the words [NOISE] or [OFF-TOPIC] somewhere in the headers. It helps weed ! out stuff that really isn't why I'm here reading this list. ! ! Given that I feel that even Dr. Vulis might possibly contribute something of ! value to this list at some unspecified time in the future, I have come to ! the conclusion that the only solution is to ask him to change his e-mail ! name field to: ! ! dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [NOISE] ) ! ! until such time as he can actually come up with something useful to say to ! the rest of us. Maybe he could even throw in an [-L18] tag, if he's going ! to continue to [spit | fuck | fart] every posting that leaps through his screen. ! ! [ Note to everyone else: that's SARCASM there, hope you got it! ] ! ! So, my original question is: is there really a Dr. Dmitri Vulis (KOTM) ! somewhere? Or is he just some made-up straw man, created by Tim May, John ! Gilmore and Eric Hughes for their personal amusement, and to add a spot of ! controversy so we can feel like we're not preaching to the choir with every ! pro-cypher posting? I often thought that was the case with David Sternlight ! as well. Or is Dr. Vulis really best-buddies with Tim May, and his way of ! showing affection is to "fart in his general direction" with every post? ! ! If he exists, I pity the unsuspecting students who wander into his class who ! might not have the genetic makeup he approves of. And now I *completely* ! understand tenure. Fuckhead. From alanh at infi.net Sat Aug 31 11:04:42 1996 From: alanh at infi.net (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:04:42 +0800 Subject: WashPost report on airline security plan In-Reply-To: <199608311514.LAA15443@nrk.com> Message-ID: THe CBS Radio News (I think that's who) mentioned this morning that the screening criteria for deciding whose baggage to search with fancy machines, would include methods the passenger had chosen to make payments, not merely for the ticket, but for his daily purchases. That this idea was floating around a long time and has been given new impetus since the flight 800 take-down. Any one else see the analysis I saw on newsgroup (forget which) which analyzed the pattern of damage to the aircraft, and came to the conclusion that it had to be a proximity-fused missle. From lutz at as-node.jena.thur.de Sat Aug 31 11:19:55 1996 From: lutz at as-node.jena.thur.de (Lutz Donnerhacke) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:19:55 +0800 Subject: LACC: Helsingius shuts down anon.penet.fi server in Finland (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: * Z.B. wrote: > Try out anon at as-node.jena.thur.de, which offers pseudonymity without an user database. It's open to the public and able to post. -- | Lutz Donnerhacke +49/3641/380259 voice, -60 ISDN, -61 V.34 und Fax | From charlee at netnet.net Sat Aug 31 11:20:27 1996 From: charlee at netnet.net (kickboxer) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:20:27 +0800 Subject: WARNING vIRuS! Message-ID: <199608311621.LAA20992@netnet1.netnet.net> There is a new and VERY dangerous virus called the HAZ-MAT virus! it fucks up the sectors on your hd, and really messes up the partition tables. It does this once a week, picking a random time to do it. 99.9% of virus scanners and other antivirus programs will not recognize it, for it is a totally new strain, using a never before seen code.... Be warned! The HAZ-MAT virus usually resides in JPG, and GIF files... once the files are viewed, the virus takes effect. scan all images upon download! From alanh at widomaker.com Sat Aug 31 11:24:29 1996 From: alanh at widomaker.com (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:24:29 +0800 Subject: found the flight-800 missle thing Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:51:33 -0800 From: Dan Robbins To: alanh at widomaker.com Subject: RE: Our old thread on airport security (fwd) >Return-Path: >Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:46:10 -0800 >X-Sender: cas at alaska.net >To: kl7y at alaska.net >From: Cas Gadomski >Subject: RE: Our old thread on airport security (fwd) > >>Return-Path: >>From: jcs1 at MAILNET.ho.att.com >>Original-From: jcs1 at MAILNET.ho.ATT.com >>Original-From: "Schaefer, John" >>To: "'Cas Gadomski'" >>Subject: RE: Our old thread on airport security (fwd) >>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:32:38 -0400 >> >>Cas: >> >>As far as I know, PETN while often used as a detonator, is also a >>component of many initiators (a "booster" rather than a detonator--that >>is the detonator fires the larger booster charge, which fires the main >>charge) but it is also found as a main charge many weapons. >> >>Am not familiar with what we/"they" use as a bursting charge in SAMs but >>I would expect that they would use something with major blast >>capabilities like PETN. I've always like Octol for a big blast but >>there are all kinds of things out there now. As to fragments the >>message is right on target. One report from the crash sited frag damage >>of plane parts and some bodies but the subject never appeared in the >>press again. >> >>For air to ground against surface targets or tunnels NOTHING beats a >>fuel-air bomb. Next best thing to a nuke. (One story out of the Sandbox >>War relates a couple of British SAS folks observing from a distance a >>concentration of enemy when the USAF unloaded an FAE bomb on the target. >> The Brits called their HQ to report that the US had gone nuclear! >> >>Am still wondering about the "missile" theory. An errant SM-1 is highly >>unlikely, and Stingers and Strellas have a very small warhead (2-3 >>pounds) and the plane would have been at the far limit of their range >>even if fire from directly underneath. We may never know what happened. >> (One really way-out theory was that it as done in by a major SAM fired >>from a submarine by China/Iran/Iraq/Martians, etc. (take your pick). >>Next will be it was shot down by a particle beam weapon fired from a >>UFO. >> >>If I was a terrorist who wanted to do an airliner externally the best >>way would be to sit in a very small fiberglass boat about a half-mile >>off shore of JFK very late at night or very early in the morning (to >>avoid spectators) and get them with a Stinger/Strella on climb out. >>Toss the launcher overboard and paddle away. >> >>As to terrorist bombs in crowded places I still can't believe that some >>nut hasn't used dynamite and a couple of propane tanks--MAJOR bang >>there. A standard "home" size tank as used for cooking with a big >>initiator would probably clear a major mall. Very scary. >> >>As of late Sue and I avoid, if at all possible, crowded public places >>like malls, shopping centers, and theaters. They're disasters waiting >>to happen. >> >>As to sending obnox mail to the "postmaster"--yup, that works. >> >>If you want to really worry read Tom Clancy's new book "Executive >>Decision." >> >>Stout heart and good cheer, >> >>John >> >> >> >>>---------- >>>From: Cas Gadomski[SMTP:cas at alaska.net] >>>Sent: Friday, August 30, 1996 4:52 AM >>>To: Schaefer, John >>>Subject: Our old thread on airport security (fwd) >>> >>> >>>John . . . >>> >>>What do you think??? I'll forward any clarifications and/or updates >>>and >>>confirmations as I get them. >>> >>> Cas. >>> >>>>Return-Path: >>>>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:20:13 -0800 >>>>X-Sender: kl7y at alaska.net >>>>To: cas at alaska.net >>>>From: Dan Robbins >>>>Subject: Our old thread on airport security (fwd) >>>> >>>>One problem with this. My friend at work who used to be in EOD >>>>said PETN is found only in detonators and occasionally in boosters, not >>>>in the explosives themselves. He said he knew of no US weapon or bomb >>>>that used PETN in the main charge See 6) below. If PETN is >>>>only in the detonator, then there would not be very much of it in any >>>>explosion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Return-Path: >>>>>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:41:05 -0400 (EDT) >>>>>From: Alan Horowitz >>>>>X-Sender: alanh at wilma >>>>>To: jennett at citicom.com, kl7y at alaska.net >>>>>Subject: Our old thread on airport security (fwd) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:51:54 +1300 >>>>>From: Joop Teernstra >>>>>Reply-To: Cebu Discussion List >>>>>To: Multiple recipients of list CEBU-L >>>>>Subject: Our old thread on airport security >>>>> >>>>>Dear fellow airtravellers, >>>>> >>>>>I think the following is relevant to a point I made at that last >>>>>discussion, >>>>>and I like to share it with you, even if some of you may have seen it >>>>>already: >>>>> >>>>>>Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy >>>>>>Subject: Re: POSSIBILITY OF AN RBS 70 SAM ON TWA 800 >>>>>>Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 09:48:51 GMT >>>>>>Organization: The Scannerist >>>>>>Lines: 144 >>>>>>Message-ID: <4vrs85$3cp at ash.ridgecrest.ca.us> >>>>>>References: <011303Z25081996 at anon.penet.fi> >>>>>>Reply-To: cheshire at ridgecrest.ca.us >>>>>>NNTP-Posting-Host: annex033.ridgecrest.ca.us >>>>>>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 >>>>>>Xref: news.express.co.nz alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:60503 >>>>>alt.conspiracy:198774 >>>>>> >>>>>>an623250 at anon.penet.fi wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>Very concise report. It is also interesting to note that you mention, >>>>>>"Tungsten, perhaps? " Tungsten pellets are not the only thing used by >>>>>>ground to air weapons. Sidewinder [Chaparral] is known to use an >>>>>>"expandable rod" war head. Also, a casing of FRANGABLE tungsten is >>>>>>being used in some weapons. This means that the case itself explodes >>>>>>into thousands of razor sharp pieces. So sharp that you could shave >>>>>>wih them. Bad news for anyone or anything within reach. :-{ >>>>>> >>>>>>>From: RONALD LEWIS >>>>>>>Subject: POSSIBILITY OF AN RBS 70 SAM ON TWA 800 >>>>>>>To: Multiple recipients of list FLIGHT-800 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>According to the 8-23-96 edition of the New York Times, residue of PETN >>>>>>>explosive has been confirmed on wreckage of TWA Flight 800. We now have >>>>>>>either a bomb or a missile as the cause. >>>>>> >>>>>>>PETN is said to be a component of missile warheads as well. >>>>>>>Interesting how >>>>>>>that was mentioned in all of the news reports tonight on various networks >>>>>>>and even local TV. Now that the investigators have concluded that it >>>>>>>definitely was a bomb or a missile, they are supposedly going through and >>>>>>>trying to collect evidence to indicate which it was. >>>>>> >>>>>>>Two things highly significant: 1) Weeks ago, a reliable source >>>>>>>advised me >>>>>>>that the investigators were not worried about explosive residue fading in >>>>>>>salt water because they had other evidence. Components of a missile, >>>>>>>perhaps? Couldn't say. >>>>>> >>>>>>>2) Same source told me the other day that the investigators were now >>>>>>>conducting "metalurgical studies", i.e., they were looking for and >>>>>>>analzying certain types of metal. Tungsten, perhaps? Bombs don't >>>>>>>contain >>>>>>>tungsten but SAM warheads are often surrounded by tungsten balls or >>>>>>>pellets. >>>>>>>They help cut the metal skin of their target aircraft. >>>>>> >>>>>>>OTHER NOTES: >>>>>> >>>>>>>1) Rocket motor of a missile would be capable of touching off a fire in >>>>>>>nearby fuel tanks. An Exocet missile sank the destroyer SHEFFIELD >>>>>>>in the >>>>>>>Falklands War without the warhead even detonating. The missile cut >>>>>>>through >>>>>>>the hull, severed fuel lines and the rocket motor touched off the spilled >>>>>>>fuel, causing a fatal fire. >>>>>> >>>>>>>2) Something ejected the air conditiioning plant in the first >>>>>>>debris field. >>>>>>>What would blow out the missing bottom of the aircraft center without >>>>>>>collapsing the internal structures, then manage to blow the forward >>>>>>>fuselage >>>>>>>off, rip away the right side of the fuselage and cause burn marks >>>>>>>there and >>>>>>>in the adjacent wing? A titanic explosion which quickly ripped the >>>>>>>fuselage >>>>>>>apart faster than Pan Am 103 went. >>>>>> >>>>>>>3) The sound on the cockpit voice recorder is different from any >>>>>>>other they >>>>>>>have heard before on two other 747s downed by bombs (Pan Am and Air >>>>>>>India). >>>>>>>Perhaps the sound was not caused by a bomb? It seems we have only a >>>>>>>bomb or >>>>>>>a missile left at this point. If it's not a bomb, then....? >>>>>> >>>>>>>4) Nose gear damaged in its hold. Nose gear door gone. Right side >>>>>>>forward >>>>>>>cargo hatch blown off in first field. The doors and AC unit located >>>>>>>together. How does a bomb inside the center fuselage do such damage >>>>>>>to the >>>>>>>nose gear area? It doesn't seem possible. However, an external >>>>>>>blast and >>>>>>>shock wave would be consistent with this, especially if it initiated >>>>>>>at the >>>>>>>left rear and traveled forward, rippling along the bottom of the >>>>>>>aircraft. >>>>>>>It would be very interesting to note if the nose gear door found in >>>>>>>Area #3 >>>>>>>(the "first" debris field, that closest to JFK) happens to have been from >>>>>>>the right side. >>>>>> >>>>>>>5) Latest pieces of wreckage with fuselage stringers and stiffeners >>>>>>>AGAIN >>>>>>>show at least subtle evidence of an external explosion rippling the outer >>>>>>>fuselage inward. Look at the video of all outer hull sections recovered. >>>>>>>The outer skin is pushed inward around the stringers. If it had been an >>>>>>>internal bomb, the metal would be almost universally bowed OUTWARD >>>>>>>away from >>>>>>>the stringers and ribs. But they aren't. In virually every case I have >>>>>>>seen so far, the sheet metal is not pulled AWAY from the stringers. They >>>>>>>may be popped loose but even in those rare cases, the indentations on the >>>>>>>outer skin make it appear as though the stringers have been pushed inward >>>>>>>away from the outer sheet metal, not as though the steet metal had been >>>>>>>pused outward away from the stringers. >>>>>> >>>>>>>6) If a bomb, why so little PETN? Why isn't it virtually >>>>>>>everywhere? Pan >>>>>>>AM 103 HAD lots of it even though the bomb went off contained in a cargo >>>>>>>bin. What would account for so little PETN in this case? >>>>>> >>>>>>>A proximity fuze detonation of a missile would touch off the blast >>>>>>>outside >>>>>>>the aircraft. Kinetic energy would still send a large portion of it into >>>>>>>the aircraft, penetrating it and passing through, but most of the >>>>>>>explosive >>>>>>>residue would burn away or dissipate outside of the aircraft. If >>>>>>>they can >>>>>>>find fragments of the 747 underbelly and subject them to tests, I >>>>>>>strongly >>>>>>>believe they will find higher concentrations of both PETN residue and >>>>>>>tungsten fragments embedded in the metal. >>>>>> >>>>>>>If this was a bomb, it had to be enormously powerful, skillfully >>>>>>>planted or >>>>>>>just unfortunately "lucky." The entire bottom of the plane around the >>>>>>>center wing box is said to be missing but, bewteen the passenger >>>>>>>cabin and >>>>>>>the outer surface of the bottom of the plane is some of the most robust >>>>>>>construction known to exist on the 747. How is it, then, that that the >>>>>>>"device" was able to blow off the front of the fuselage, blow away >>>>>>>at least >>>>>>>the right side of the fuselage, then make it past the heavy-duty >>>>>>>wings and >>>>>>>AC unit to shread the bottom of the plane into fragments so small >>>>>>>they may >>>>>>>have to dredge to recover them? >>>>>> >>>>>>>It seems that only a missile could rip away the bottom exterior upon >>>>>>>contact >>>>>>>to blast away the AC unit lying right above that area. As the hot >>>>>>>remains >>>>>>>of the missile body continue into the aircraft, they could tear open the >>>>>>>center fuel tanks and, with the compression of air and kinetic >>>>>>>energy, blow >>>>>>>out the right side and cause separation of the forward fuselage. The >>>>>>>thousands of tungsten fragments and the armor-piercing capability of >>>>>>>the RBS >>>>>>>70 would surely be capable of such incredible damage. It has destroyed >>>>>>>light armored vehicles when fired in the air-to-ground mode, so it >>>>>>>shouldn't >>>>>>>be hard to imagine it doing severe damage to the thin skin of a >>>>>>>pressurized >>>>>>>airliner hull at 13000+ feet. >>>>>> >>>>>>>And there are precedents for using SAMs against airliners and civilian >>>>planes. >>>>>> >>>>>>>In the former Soviet Republic of Georgia, airliners were being used >>>>>>>to ferry >>>>>>>out refugees and to bring in weapons and supplies during the civil >>>>>>>war with >>>>>>>Abkhazian separatists. SAM gunners, in boats out on the Black Sea, are >>>>>>>known to have shot down at LEAST two airliners as they approached >>>>>>>and took >>>>>>>off from Sukhumi, Georgia. >>>>>> >>>>>>>In April, 1995, a Falcon executive jet carrying the president of >>>>>>>Rwanda was >>>>>>>on final approach to Kigali airfield in the capital city of Rwanda >>>>>>>when it >>>>>>>was shot down by a shoulder-fired SAM (RBS 70 is NOT shoulder-fired >>>>>>>but is a >>>>>>>MANPAD, or man-portable system mounted on a pedestal mount). >>>>>> >>>>>>>It has happened before, it may have happened with TWA 800. Now, what >>>>>>>measures do we take to make sure it doesn't happen again? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Ron Lewis >>>>>>>CHIEF MILITARY & AVIATION ANALYST >>>>>>>THE INTELLIGYST GROUP >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENT >>>>>>>ON*** >>>>>>>Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. >>>>>>>Please, report inappropriate use to abuse at anon.penet.fi >>>>>>>For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help at anon.penet.fi >>>>>>>If you have any problems, address them to admin at anon.penet.fi >>>>>> >>>>>>Dr Pepper >>>>>>10 - 2 - 4 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Uh, oh! >>>>>Joop Teernstra >>>>>http://serve.com/terastra >>>>>If you want to make up your mind about an argument, see who attacks the >>>>>person, rather than the matter at hand. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>* CEBU-L DISCUSSION LIST * Comments/Complaints, write: >>>>>ADMIN at CEBU.USC.EDU.PH >>>>>To unsubscribe, write: LISTSERV at CEBU.USC.EDU.PH w/ body text: SIGNOFF >>>>>CEBU-L >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From joelm at eskimo.com Sat Aug 31 11:32:55 1996 From: joelm at eskimo.com (Joel McNamara) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:32:55 +0800 Subject: Moscowchannel.com hack Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960831074406.0067aee0@mail.eskimo.com> Not really crypto, but related to the DOJ hack in a way. Moscow Channel is a pretty slick, Russian news/commentary page. Their Web site was hacked and altered by someone who didn't seem to like Russians all that well. See: http://www.moscowchannel.com/ While not as elaborate as the DOJ hack, it's interesting that Web page vandalism is starting to turn into a unique form of protest and social commentary. As Web sites with security holes increase, my guess is vandalism will increase incrementally. Both in terms of random graffiti, and targeted attacks. Just a matter of time before some builds a dedicated Satan type tool that scans for HTTP server holes or messed up file permissions to make locating potential victims easy. From qut at netcom.com Sat Aug 31 12:00:20 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:00:20 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608300700.AAA09287@toad.com> Message-ID: <199608311517.IAA02622@netcom21.netcom.com> ! At 09:58 AM 8/29/96 -0500, Igor wrote: ! >The decision that have just made is not a technical decision, it is ! >a business decision. You just decided that the needs of security ! >outweight the need to be able to deal with 100% of potential customers. ! ! I strongly agree. You've also potentially annoyed a bunch of Europeans, ! Unicode-speakers, and other users of non-ASCII alphabets. ! Just because the domain name in somebody's address is case-insensitive ! (and culturally-insensitive :-) ASCII, that doesn't mean their user ! name will be also, especially if their _real_ mail system is some ! ugly proprietary thing like Microso-Cc:PR0FS-HS.400 or if their ! name is Swedish or Chinese. Agreed, the DNS and other systems should be upgraded to 8bit. Unix should also allow / in file names, it can be escaped somehow. From dlv at bwalk.dm.com Sat Aug 31 12:03:23 1996 From: dlv at bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:03:23 +0800 Subject: Dr. Vulis is a test, right? [was RE: Desubscribe] In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960830224855.00355560@labg30> Message-ID: <6DBJTD35w165w@bwalk.dm.com> John Deters writes: > I can't believe it any more. That's because you're a pathological liar and have no credibility. > John (soon-to-be-spit-upon,no-doubt) Deters. You're not worthy of our spittle, fuckhead. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From ichudov at algebra.com Sat Aug 31 12:14:03 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:14:03 +0800 Subject: Moscowchannel.com hack In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960831074406.0067aee0@mail.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <199608311714.MAA19352@manifold.algebra.com> Joel McNamara wrote: > > Not really crypto, but related to the DOJ hack in a way. > > Moscow Channel is a pretty slick, Russian news/commentary page. Their Web > site was hacked and altered by someone who didn't seem to like Russians all > that well. See: > > http://www.moscowchannel.com/ > > While not as elaborate as the DOJ hack, it's interesting that Web page > vandalism is starting to turn into a unique form of protest and social > commentary. At least they had more sense of humor than USDoJ and made the hacked page available from their website. To compensate for lack of humor at USDOJ, I made their page available at http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov (follow the links). A tarred archive is available from there for downloading. - Igor. P.S. I am very surprised by huge number of hits to my usdoj page. I wonder where are the links to my page. From dthorn at gte.net Sat Aug 31 12:25:30 1996 From: dthorn at gte.net (Dale Thorn) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:25:30 +0800 Subject: Below-bit-level encoding Message-ID: <322877E4.C79@gte.net> Does anyone have info or know of a text source on less-than-bit-level file preparation? I presume the crypto techniques would be the usual stuff; I'd like to dig into bit deconstruction a little, and a text which has a chapter or more devoted to this and other esoteric file processing would be helpful. Note that this is not substitution or bit-packing or whatever. Thanx. From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 31 12:31:41 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:31:41 +0800 Subject: DON'T Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: At 6:35 AM 8/31/96, Arun Mehta wrote: >There are two sides to this: after all, it is the Singaporeans who finally >have to sort out this problem with their government, and denying them >the Usenet platform for discussion would only hinder that process. The point is to make clear to them that the Usenet and similar Web sites are global in nature, not subject to censorship without a very high local cost. If discussions of Lee Kwan Yew's dynasty are considered illegal, then Singaporans will have to choose not to carry the various newsgroups into which *I* post such messages! (This was done by many of us during the Karla Homulka and Teale trial in Canada a couple of years ago: Canada imposed press restrictions on discussion of the trial and the grisly evidence...and then was chagrinned to find that the global Net did not adhere to their notions of what should and could be discussed. They even seized copies of "Wired" at the border, very much akin to Singapore's stone age policies.) >Then again, inappropriate postings are the bane of the Internet: the consensus >on which the Net functions relies heavily on people not posting >inappropriately. This works imperfectly, as all long-time surfers of the Usenet will attest! And _never_ has it involved determinations of "inappropriate" by _governments_! Our point in protesting Singapore's actions (and Germany's, France's, America's, India's, etc., in other cases) is to technologically subvert their notions that their politicians can determine what the Net, Web, and Usenet carry. To be blunt, if Singapore wants to stop me from discussing the dictator Yew and his feeble son, they can't. Except by pulling the plugs on forums in which my posts are carried. I consider this a Good Thing (that politicians in Country A generally have no power to tell citizen-units in Country B what they can say and what they can't). The point of being sometimes "impolite" (*) is to "force their hand." (* I find it Orwellian that being "polite" is taken to mean not saying anything controversial. It was impolite for Salman Rushdie to write "The Satanic Verses," is was impolite for people to mention Karla Homulka in talk.politics.canada, it was impolite to point out that the prime minister of India drinks a glass of his own urine every day, it was impolite to refer to Bill Clinton's dalliances with Paula Jones, and so on. In a free society, all things are discussable. That various countries want to make the Net less free is not something we should support, even if it is more "polite" to accede to the wishes of their dictators, secret policemen, demagogues, preachers, and henchmen.) --Tim May -- [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency Act of 1996] And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said: "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck." So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular Translation, TCM, 1996] From declan at eff.org Sat Aug 31 13:10:14 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 04:10:14 +0800 Subject: Waging War On Singapore In-Reply-To: <199608311513.IAA02186@netcom21.netcom.com> Message-ID: >From memory, the SBA regs ban anything that is offensive to the public morals or dignity. Anything that would undermine public confidence in the government. Look at: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/sg If you do get an account, let me know. Perhaps I'll join you. -Declan On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Dave Harman OBC wrote: > So what is the information that the Singapore dictatorship is trying to > ban? Whatever it is, the Singapore internal networks should be flooded > with it. How to get an internet account in Singapore, preferably > anonymous? > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From declan at eff.org Sat Aug 31 13:14:06 1996 From: declan at eff.org (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 04:14:06 +0800 Subject: WashPost report on airline security plan In-Reply-To: <199608311514.LAA15443@nrk.com> Message-ID: The Post front-paged this story and probably would have led with it if it weren't for the gas leak at National Airport late last night. Read the story. It's quite disturbing. The proposal will be released in a week, I recall. -Declan On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, David Lesher wrote: > Today's WashPost reports that one plan the new commission > is studying is a massive Big Brother database of any&everyone > boarding a plane. ""Suspects"" will then be subjected to > extra attention. > > -- > A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com > & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX > Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 > is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 > // declan at eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan at well.com // From qut at netcom.com Sat Aug 31 13:14:51 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 04:14:51 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608311706.MAA19288@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <199608311831.LAA23860@netcom21.netcom.com> ! Dave Harman OBC wrote: ! > ! > ! At 09:58 AM 8/29/96 -0500, Igor wrote: ! > ! >The decision that have just made is not a technical decision, it is ! > ! >a business decision. You just decided that the needs of security ! > ! >outweight the need to be able to deal with 100% of potential customers. ! > ! ! > ! I strongly agree. You've also potentially annoyed a bunch of Europeans, ! > ! Unicode-speakers, and other users of non-ASCII alphabets. ! > ! Just because the domain name in somebody's address is case-insensitive ! > ! (and culturally-insensitive :-) ASCII, that doesn't mean their user ! > ! name will be also, especially if their _real_ mail system is some ! > ! ugly proprietary thing like Microso-Cc:PR0FS-HS.400 or if their ! > ! name is Swedish or Chinese. ! > ! > Agreed, the DNS and other systems should be upgraded to 8bit. ! > Unix should also allow / in file names, it can be escaped somehow. ! ! It is not possible. Oh, every value can be escaped, there's no reason that the full 8bit range cannot be incorporated throughout every operating system. It's just legacy junk which keeps us putting up restrictions in everything that we really don't want. Ditto for network software. From bf578 at scn.org Sat Aug 31 13:23:33 1996 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 04:23:33 +0800 Subject: Mailings lists looping Message-ID: <199608311839.LAA04494@scn.org> The current issue of the RISKS digest has a couple of submissions about this issue (incluing one from Brent Chapman, majordomoman) It can be found at: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.39.html -- ------------------------------------------ There are no facts, only interpretations. I always wanted to be somebody, From cme at cybercash.com Sat Aug 31 14:11:36 1996 From: cme at cybercash.com (Carl Ellison) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 05:11:36 +0800 Subject: gopher://gopher.npr.org...1996/Jul.96/fa.07.31.96 Message-ID: <3.0b11.32.19960831152041.0068b3d8@cybercash.com> gopher://gopher.npr.org:70/00/NPR_Online/Programs/FreshAir/Fresh_Air_Rundown s/1996/Jul.96/fa.07.31.96 Washington Post investigative reporter JIM McGEE. He has co-written with Brian Duffy the new book "Main Justice: The Men And Women Who Enforce The Nation's Criminal Laws And Guard Its Liberties." It's published by Simon and Schuster. The book is about the changing role of the U.S. Justice Department. As the fears of terrorism increase, Congress and the White House are giving the Justice Department more investigative powers and a wider jurisdiction which includes actions in foriegn countries. McGee warns in the book that along with the apparent protection this could provide Americans it could also erode individual liberties. McGee shared a 1987 Pulitzer Prize for a series of stories on the Iran Contra Affair. McGee lives in Virginia. From unicorn at schloss.li Sat Aug 31 14:17:24 1996 From: unicorn at schloss.li (Black Unicorn) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 05:17:24 +0800 Subject: WashPost report on airline security plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote: > Any one else see the analysis I saw on newsgroup (forget which) which > analyzed the pattern of damage to the aircraft, and came to the conclusion > that it had to be a proximity-fused missle. If so it was most likely radar guided. These tend to be larger, more restricted, and harder to come by. The terrorist angle becomes harder to develop in this case. -- I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist unicorn at schloss.li From furballs at netcom.com Sat Aug 31 14:40:27 1996 From: furballs at netcom.com (Paul S. Penrod) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 05:40:27 +0800 Subject: WARNING vIRuS! In-Reply-To: <199608311621.LAA20992@netnet1.netnet.net> Message-ID: I doubt very seriously that this is anything more than a troll. First off, the algorythms used to find polymorphics are sophisticated enough to detect newly published viruses. Secondly, DOS/Windows et al. are not much more than boot sector viruses themselves. :-) Their structure is well know and there isn't any back door available to bang the OS from that hasn't already been exploited. Real OS's like Unix, OS/2 etc. are also know quantities. Binary launches are the way they do it, and the way a virus spreads, unless you get caught up with autoexecuting Word and Excel macros. I have yet to see *any* truly data propogating viruses. None the less, it is always a good idea to keep a scanner handy for thoses files that wander in off the Net. You never really know what they've been doing and who they've been doing it with. :-) ...Paul ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everybody gets busy on the proof" -- John Kenneth Galbraith "Success is attending a funeral as a spectator" -- E. BonAnno ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, kickboxer wrote: > There is a new and VERY dangerous virus called the HAZ-MAT virus! > it fucks up the sectors on your hd, and really messes up the partition > tables. It does this once a week, picking a random time to do it. 99.9% of > virus scanners and other antivirus programs will not recognize it, for it is > a totally new strain, using a never before seen code.... Be warned! The > HAZ-MAT virus usually resides in JPG, and GIF files... once the files are > viewed, the virus takes effect. > scan all images upon download! > > > From gbroiles at io.com Sat Aug 31 14:56:54 1996 From: gbroiles at io.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 05:56:54 +0800 Subject: Local Obscenity Regulations In-Reply-To: <19960831100811343.AAA184@maverick> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Sean Sutherland wrote: > Seems that Oregon has a ballot up for measure which will allow each city > and county to decide for itself what obscenity is. Initiatives like this keep popping up in Oregon (we had another anti-free speech initiative in '94) because Oregon's state constitution has been interpreted to protect speech more broadly than the US constitution. It seems like a robust set of constitutional rights makes some people nervous, and they respond by asking that those rights be curtailed. (cf the initiative which limited California's constitutional search & seizure protections to the federal standard. feh. Oregon will probably face such an initiative soon, because Oregon's constitutional search & seizure provisions are significantly more protective than the federal standard.) But the good (?) news is that the US constitution acts as a "floor" for rights; the gentle citizens of Oregon can't restrict their own free speech rights below the federal standard, no matter how frustrating that is to Ayatollah Mannix and his ilk. (The notion of "community standards" is already part of federal free speech jurisprudence; but "community" is not necessarily coterminous with city or county boundaries.) But all of my books are in boxes and I'll be a California resident again in ~24 hours. Goodbye, Oregon lunacy. Hello, California lunacy. :) From declan at well.com Sat Aug 31 15:04:56 1996 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 06:04:56 +0800 Subject: Los Angeles Times article on Helsingius and anon.penet.fi Message-ID: The attached article was reposted to fight-censorship with the permission of the Los Angeles Times, which ran it on the front page today. It's a good story. Compare it to the Reuters dispatch, which yowled about child porn but didn't even mention threats from the Church of Scientology: >Finn To Close Net Remailer After Child Porn Claim > >HELSINKI - A Finnish Internet specialist said today he's closing his >remailer, or anonymous forwarding system, after rejecting allegations >it was being used as a conduit for child pornography. [...] Note Esther Dyson's comments: "The damage that can be done by anonymity is far bigger" than in any other medium, said Esther Dyson, chairwoman of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "In the end, you need to be able to get at somebody's identity to enforce accountability, and the question is how do you also enforce freedom of speech and freedom from prosecution for unpopular opinions." Also, on the "Mick Williams Cyberline" radio show I was on this afternoon, we heard an unconfirmed report that Helsingius is suing the Observer, but I haven't seen it on the wires yet... -Declan --- Los Angeles Times Saturday, August 31, 1996 Internet Figure Pulls Plug (- 0p9) on His Anonymity Service (- 0p6) By AMY HARMON TIMES STAFF WRITER Byline ends here. Johan Helsingius, an Internet icon who for 3 1/2 years has championed anonymous communication over the global computer network by running a service that makes it possible, pulled the plug Friday on the machine known as anon.penet.fi. Civil liberties advocates said the move, prompted by a Finnish court decision that the anonymity of the service could be breached by court order, raised serious concerns about the future of anonymous speech on the rapidly growing network. A strong privacy ethic has prevailed on the Internet since its early days as a tool for academics and the military. The network was largely self-policed, and anonymous services--including Helsingius'--explained to users that they were not to be used for criminal activity, otherwise they would get shut down. But the recent explosion of electronic commerce and community has raised the stakes. Law enforcement agencies, as well as anti-pornography advocates and many others, maintain that total anonymity provides too much shelter for a variety of criminal activities. Based in Helsinki, the Finnish capital, Helsingius' service was the biggest of its kind in the world, with more than half a million users and with 7,500 messages passing through it each day. Frequent users included suicide counseling groups, human rights organizations and "anyone who wanted to discuss anything without their neighbors and employers looking on," Helsingius said. The amorphous structure of the Internet, which ignores international boundaries, means that users throughout the world will be affected by the shutdown. They will be offered the option of revealing their true identities or finding another service--there are about 40 others worldwide. The idea of an anonymous remailer is to protect the confidentiality of its users' identities. When a piece of e-mail was sent to anon.penet.fi, its identifying information was stripped off and a code number was substituted. The message was then forwarded to the individual, mailing list or discussion group for which it was intended. The only link between the real and assumed identity resided on the computer in Helsingius' home. More sophisticated remailers use encryption software to create a new identity and route messages through a string of several computers around the world, never recording the transactions. That way no individual operator has a record of the original sender. But Helsingius' service was notable because it allowed others to respond directly to the sender via the pseudonym on anon.penet. It also did not require any special software programs--and it was free. * In a telephone interview Friday from Helsinki, the 35-year-old Finn--known by his e-mail handle, Julf--said he was discouraged by the court's interpretation of the communication privacy laws in a case that involved a petition from the Church of Scientology, which wants Helsingius to reveal the identity of an individual who is alleged to have posted its copyrighted material on the Internet through Helsingius' remailer. "The court made it quite clear that the privacy of electronic mail isn't covered in Finland anymore," Helsingius said. "I would be running to the courtroom all the time because the suspicion of a crime, however minor, would be enough grounds to get a court decision to have the sender revealed. What's the point?" The Scientologists' petition underlines the heightened threat--and potential benefit--of anonymity on the Internet. While anonymity is possible via traditional mail or over the telephone, the Internet provides far greater reach for far less cost than any other medium, and it is technically much harder to eavesdrop upon. Helsingius, who has run the remailer in his spare time, has for three years been fending off requests from law enforcement authorities to discover the identity of his users. He was forced last February to provide Finnish authorities with the name of a user who was alleged to have broken into the church's computer to steal copyrighted information. The legal protection for digital anonymity has not yet been tested in U.S. courts, but Internet legal experts expect that it will be soon. The American Civil Liberties Union of Georgia is currently seeking to restrict the application of the new Georgia Computer Systems Protection Act, which broadly prohibits the use of pseudonyms on the Internet. The issue of how to deal with anonymity is a crucial one for those trying to establish the medium as a place to work, play and live in the coming decades. Internet-spawned activists such as the Cypherpunks argue that the system will collapse without a guarantee of secure and private communication. And advances in cryptography have made that, for the most part, technologically possible. But other Internet enthusiasts disagree. * "The damage that can be done by anonymity is far bigger" than in any other medium, said Esther Dyson, chairwoman of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "In the end, you need to be able to get at somebody's identity to enforce accountability, and the question is how do you also enforce freedom of speech and freedom from prosecution for unpopular opinions." Anonymous services have in fact been used for "mail-bombing"--crashing computer systems by overloading them with e-mail--and for obscene postings to discussion groups that are tantamount to broadcasting obscene phone calls. Anti-pornography advocates have also begun to target anonymous Internet services, which they blame for enabling the easy distribution of illicit material over the network. Last week, in a front-page headline, the London weekly newspaper the Observer called Helsingius "the Internet middleman who handles 90% of all child pornography." Helsingius says the sensational article had nothing to do with his decision, but he is clearly tired of the situation. Most anonymous remailers, included anon.penet.fi, he says, filter out the transmission of large image files that are likely to contain pornographic pictures. "I have personally been a target because of the remailer for three years. Unjustified accusations affect both my job and my private life," he said. After setting up his server so that it can be used on a limited basis by certain nonprofit groups, Helsingius plans to set up a task force to discuss the practical problems related to ethical and civil rights issues on the Internet. Meanwhile, many Internet denizens mourned the passing of anon.penet on Friday and hailed Helsingius as a "net.hero." "This is a sad day in the history of the Net," wrote Declan McCullagh, who runs a widely distributed electronic mailing list called "fight-censorship." "Hundreds of thousands of people had accounts on Julf's pseudonmyous server and many netizens relied on it daily to preserve their privacy online." "[Helsingius] has done a lot of good work. He's been attacked on all sides, and he's hung in there," said Sameer Parekh, founder of Community Connexion in Berkeley, which hopes to build a business out of providing anonymous remailer services. "It's too bad that he had to shut down. But we believe there's a demand for anonymity, and use of these systems is only going to increase." BACKGROUND Anonymous remailers make it possible to send messages over the global Internet computer network without revealing who or where they come from. Anyone with an Internet account can contact a remailer service and register for an account. Then, when sending electronic mail or posting messages to an electronic discussion group, the subscriber addresses it to the remailer as well as to the final destination. The message travels to the remailer computer, which automatically strips off the originating name and address and forwards it to the final destination. Some remailers also allow the recipient of an anonymous message to respond anonymously, so that the entire exchange is "double-blind." Copyright 1996, Los Angeles Times ### From ichudov at algebra.com Sat Aug 31 15:52:02 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 06:52:02 +0800 Subject: Code Review Guidelines (draft) In-Reply-To: <199608311831.LAA23860@netcom21.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199608312040.PAA20696@manifold.algebra.com> Dave Harman OBC wrote: > ! > Agreed, the DNS and other systems should be upgraded to 8bit. > ! > Unix should also allow / in file names, it can be escaped somehow. > ! > ! It is not possible. > > Oh, every value can be escaped, there's no reason that the full 8bit > range cannot be incorporated throughout every operating system. It's > just legacy junk which keeps us putting up restrictions in everything > that we really don't want. Ditto for network software. > It is not possible because all old programs will be broken. It is also not possible because non-ascii characters have different meanings in different languages. I mean, words �������� ����� �, �������� ��� ���. �� ��� ��� ��� ���, ����� � ���� �� ���? have meaning only to Russian speakers. A German or a Japanese would never be able to remember a hostname like ��������.��������.�������.������, because in _their_ representation of these characters this text is a complete gibberish. - Igor. From exl at castles.com Sat Aug 31 15:56:35 1996 From: exl at castles.com (James Erickson) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 06:56:35 +0800 Subject: DON'T Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: <9608312104.AA11740@castles.com> how do i get off this list? From exl at castles.com Sat Aug 31 16:00:14 1996 From: exl at castles.com (James Erickson) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:00:14 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <9608312106.AA11807@castles.com> list From exl at castles.com Sat Aug 31 16:02:32 1996 From: exl at castles.com (James Erickson) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:02:32 +0800 Subject: Below-bit-level encoding Message-ID: <9608312103.AA11724@castles.com> how the hell do i get of this list? From snow at smoke.suba.com Sat Aug 31 16:08:28 1996 From: snow at smoke.suba.com (snow) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:08:28 +0800 Subject: Moscowchannel.com hack In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960831074406.0067aee0@mail.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Joel McNamara wrote: > Not really crypto, but related to the DOJ hack in a way. > > Moscow Channel is a pretty slick, Russian news/commentary page. Their Web > site was hacked and altered by someone who didn't seem to like Russians all > Just a matter of time before some builds a dedicated Satan type tool that > scans for HTTP server holes or messed up file permissions to make locating > potential victims easy. Write your web site to a CD-ROM and hard-code the base directory into the webserver. Petro, Christopher C. petro at suba.com snow at smoke.suba.com From attila at primenet.com Sat Aug 31 16:29:25 1996 From: attila at primenet.com (attila) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:29:25 +0800 Subject: FC: The end of an era: anon.penet.fi shutdown, Stockholm conf Message-ID: <199608312127.PAA16191@InfoWest.COM> Addressed to: Declan McCullagh Cypherpunks = The shutdown of anon.penet.fi marks an end of an era -- and perhaps it was = inevitable. [--snip--] = But the closure isn't a permanent loss to the Net. The concept behind = deploying anonymous remailers is that [--snip--] = ...they're temporary and expendable -- if one government attacks a = remailer, another appears in another jurisdiction. [--snip--] it was = time for Helsingus' remailer to go offline. It had served its purpose. = Declan: I think you are missing the most import service that Johan Helsingius provided: a means of anonymous corres- pondence with services for victims of child abuse, domestic violence, alcholism, etc. *** people who needed to reach out to someone *** I fully subscribe to the Cypherpunk remailers, particu- lary MixMaster and Middleman, but they do not serve this purpose. However, maybe as part of social responsibility, we should provide one or more remailers with databases --and EXCLUDE addressing except to the help lines. and, of course, make it easy enough for the victims to request additional addresses. yes, it may take a little effort to upgrade the target addresses, etc. but it should be done. noone knows what the courts will rule on any matter of privacy with Bubba at the helm, but correspondence to shelters and the like has been adjudicated off-limits to FOI, etc. I will speak to several ISPs, and if one of them will permit me to accept the "responsibility," I will initiate one. I have no problem defending it legally. attila -- Now, with a black jack mule you wish to harness, you walk up, look him in the eye, and hit him with a 2X4 over the left eye. If he blinks, hit him over the right eye! He'll cooperate --so will politicians. From youssefy at ucla.edu Sat Aug 31 16:30:36 1996 From: youssefy at ucla.edu (youssefy at ucla.edu) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:30:36 +0800 Subject: Cypherpunks Lite Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960831214553.006cf514@pop.ben2.ucla.edu> There was a posting by someone about three weeks ago that gave the address for a person who ran a filtered version of the cypherpunks list, can someone please repost that information? From frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu Sat Aug 31 16:43:52 1996 From: frogfarm at yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:43:52 +0800 Subject: SNAKEOIL? Top Secret for Windows Message-ID: <199608312153.RAA16444@yakko.cs.wmich.edu> >From: sk510019 at mail.idt.net (Siva Krishna) Newsgroups: comp.archives.ms-windows.announce Subject: tsecret.zip - TOPSECRET!: Easily encrypts any file. Message-ID: <9608312039.cg4898 at Simtel.Net> Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 20:39:29 GMT I have uploaded to Simtel.Net: http://www.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/security/tsecret.zip ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/security/tsecret.zip 12070 bytes tsecret.zip TOPSECRET!: Easily encrypts any file TOPSECRET is a program to encrypt your sensitive files. This program does not use the RSA standard (which is restricted for export). This program uses the aid of a "Catalyst" file (which can be any file) to encrypt another file (any file). The Catalyst acts as a key to code and decode your sensitive files. Of course you can even make your own catalyst by encrypting one file with another. A periodically changing Catalyst can be made by combining 1-Registered mail file 2-Courier file 3-Last message file; This would ensure high security for the transmission of your sensitive files.I am sure you will come up with your own methods. Shareware. Uploaded by the author. Siva Krishna sk510019 at mail.idt.net -- http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information EmmaGoldmanCamillePagliaMarieCurieAynRandSapphoDianaToriAmosPJHarvey&Demona All generalizations are false, with the exception of this one I feel a groove comin' on | $ | Freedom...yeah, right. From loki at infonex.com Sat Aug 31 16:44:02 1996 From: loki at infonex.com (Lance Cottrell) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:44:02 +0800 Subject: Los Angeles Times article on Helsingius and anon.penet.fi Message-ID: At 12:45 PM 8/31/96, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Note Esther Dyson's comments: > > "The damage that can be done by anonymity is far bigger" than in > any other medium, said Esther Dyson, chairwoman of the Electronic > Frontier Foundation. "In the end, you need to be able to get at > somebody's identity to enforce accountability, and the question is how > do you also enforce freedom of speech and freedom from prosecution for > unpopular opinions." > Is this the official EFF position on remailers? This strong anti-remailer position needs to be retracted or widely publicized. -Lance ---------------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell loki at obscura.com PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. Mixmaster, the next generation remailer, is now available! http://www.obscura.com/~loki/Welcome.html or FTP to obscura.com "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche ---------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Sat Aug 31 16:52:31 1996 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:52:31 +0800 Subject: BOM_ban Message-ID: <199608312202.WAA19609@pipe5.t2.usa.pipeline.com> Thanks to DL for noting this report. 8-31-96. WaPo: "New Airport Bomb Plan Considered. Computer Profiles, High-Tech Detectors Central to System" A presidential commission on aviation security is considering a bomb detection plan that would require U.S. airlines to scrutinize all passengers at U.S. airports using massive computer files to identify potential terrorists or other suspicious individuals. The plan would require creation of a computer profiling system that would examine passengers' bill-paying records, flying habits and much other data to determine which checked baggage should undergo examination by sophisticated explosives detection equipment. Numerous legal issues still need to be resolved, including thorny civil liberties questions such as whether the airlines would be given access to information from government computer systems like those containing criminal records. Would the airlines store information on individuals? Would they go out and seek information from credit bureaus and other private sources? ----- http://jya.com/bomban.txt (10 kb) via anonymizer BOM_ban From patrickbc at juno.com Sat Aug 31 17:05:13 1996 From: patrickbc at juno.com (patrick b cummings) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:05:13 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" In-Reply-To: <199608270304.UAA07482@mail.pacifier.com> Message-ID: <19960830.170609.9758.0.patrickbc@juno.com> jimbell, I agree with what you are saying but not all polititions are that bad. You make it sound as if their are no politisions are for freedom of the net. From tcmay at got.net Sat Aug 31 17:17:33 1996 From: tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:17:33 +0800 Subject: "Security risks" vs. "credit risks" Message-ID: The news that airports/airlines (more on this difference in a bit) may be establishing a data base of security risks sounds Big Brotherish. But, how is it so much different from credit risks and credit reporting data bases? If, for example, private airlines (and the U.S. has only private airlines, not any "public" or "national" airline) wish to check the data bases on their customers, is this not quite similar to checking credit risks and ratings before lending money? There is great danger, to be sure, especially if one's writings and public utterances become entries into a "threat data base." But I see nothing unsurprising in, say, American Airlines expressing more interest in Jim Bell or Tim May, both of whom have written publically about terrorism and "soft targets," and both of whom have written about how to make pipe bombs, than in Marianne Smith, retired school teacher from Peoria. And there is even more danger--even unconstitutionality--in *government involvement* in such data bases. It's unclear from what I've seen if this data base is to be run like the private credit ratings agencies or if it is to have inputs from the FBI, NSA, Interpol, SDECE, etc. Remember, private airlines are just that: private. Surely we do not support laws which limit a private airline from using data it has acquired to decide whom to pay closer attention to. This is the essence of what knowledge is. (So long as none of this is mandatory. If Tim's Pretty Good Airline wishes to not bother screening customers, this should not be illegal. Nor, to my mind, should TPGA be exposed to negligence lawsuits, so long as his policies are clearly spelled out.) I find the notion that one's speeches and Usenet utterances could "harm one's security rating" a distasteful idea, but so long as such security ratings are handled by private players, and used by private players, I see no illegality. (Of course, the major credit reporting agencies--TRW Credit, Equifax, and TransUnion--already collude with the government. They collude to falsify credit ratings, to create identies and histories that never existed when they say they did, and to provide government with data bases for various purposes. Obviously a "TRW Security" function would be at least as corrupt, maybe more so.) --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay at got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." From patrickbc at juno.com Sat Aug 31 17:50:18 1996 From: patrickbc at juno.com (patrick b cummings) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:50:18 +0800 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <19960830.174816.9758.3.patrickbc@juno.com> I am planning to make a list of hacker's of america and would appreciate it for your help. please send me your handle e-mail address city, state (optional) your mailing address and url whether or not you would like to recieve hackers list type of hacking you do Thank You for your cooperation From patrickbc at juno.com Sat Aug 31 17:58:28 1996 From: patrickbc at juno.com (patrick b cummings) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:58:28 +0800 Subject: "Douglas R. Floyd" : Re: File System Encryption Message-ID: <19960830.175522.9758.4.patrickbc@juno.com> --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: "Douglas R. Floyd" To: drifter at c2.net (Drifter) Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com Subject: Re: File System Encryption Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 09:01:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <199608271401.JAA04116 at xanadu.io.com> > > I'm aware of the three main disk encryption programs SFS, SECDRV, and > SECDEV, but I need to find a solution that works with Windows 95 32bit > or Windows NT 4.0. > > I'm currently using SFS 1.17 and Secure Drive under Win-95, but am > unable to continue to work in dos compatability mode due to severe > performance hits. I am open to commercial products that have passed > peer review, but know of none. > > If anyone could suggest a solution (outside of switching OS's), I > would be *most* gratefull. > > Please respond to the list, as I am a subscriber under another > account. If you have another 386 or 486 lying around, you could install Linux and Ian's encrypted loopback code on a remote box, then NFS or Samba the filesystem over. For protection, you could modify the vlock command to lock the console (and not unlock it), and disable inetd. Then, unless someone has the permissions to access the files through the network, the files are inaccessable ;-). > > The Drifter > --------- End forwarded message ---------- You could find some programers on the net and make a new one that is windows 95 compatible. From lucas at wasteland.org Sat Aug 31 18:30:49 1996 From: lucas at wasteland.org (Synthesizer Punk) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:30:49 +0800 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: <19960830.174816.9758.3.patrickbc@juno.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, patrick b cummings wrote: :I am planning to make a list of hacker's of america and would appreciate :it for your help. please send me your : handle : e-mail address : city, state : (optional) your mailing address : and url : whether or not you would like to recieve hackers list : type of hacking you do :Thank You for your cooperation : : : May I ask, ill fatedly, WHY you're doing this? What goals you wish to accomplish by doing this? How many friends will you make? Will you go to Disney World when done? sigh __ .__https://aleph.tessier.com__ lucas at wasteland.org _________.__. _____/ |_| |__ ______ __ __ ____ | | __ If privay is / ___< | |/ \ __\ | \\____ \| | \/ \| |/ / outlawed, only \___ \ \___ | | \ | | Y \ |_> > | / | \ < outlaws will /____ >/ ____|___| /__| |___| / __/|____/|___| /__|_ > have privacy. \/ \/ sXe sXe \/ \/|__| figlet \/just Another P.C. Fascist Tessier/Ashpool_-//-..()_=+www(ashpool/tessier).com.-+|\ From stewarts at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 31 18:33:59 1996 From: stewarts at ix.netcom.com (stewarts at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:33:59 +0800 Subject: DON'T Nuke Singapore Back into the Stone Age Message-ID: <199608312341.QAA09753@toad.com> At 10:35 AM 8/31/96 -0700, tcmay at got.net (Timothy C. May) wrote: >The point is to make clear to them that the Usenet and similar Web sites >are global in nature, not subject to censorship without a very high local >cost. If discussions of Lee Kwan Yew's dynasty are considered illegal, then >Singaporans will have to choose not to carry the various newsgroups into >which *I* post such messages! [.....] >To be blunt, if Singapore wants to stop me from discussing the dictator Yew >and his feeble son, they can't. Except by pulling the plugs on forums in >which my posts are carried. Or they'll have to implement per-article filtering, whether done by bots (easy to evade) or by humans (normally much harder.) It's easy to have bots get rid of all postings/email/web mentioning Tim May or Klaus von Future Prime, though tougher to do so if you start posting anti-government-slander from your various Tentacles. And they don't have to use humans to filter the whole web - have bots identify any material containing the words "Singapore" or "Yew" and forward it to the humans, though that makes web proxies a bit slow :-) Reuters reports: R>Contents deemed objectionable include those ``which tend to R>bring the government into hatred or contempt, or which excite R>disaffection against the government,'' an SBA statement said Disaffection? Everybody loves Lee Kwan Yew (or else) - he's like a Big Brother to us! # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts at ix.netcom.com # Reassign Authority! From torment at goodnet.com Sat Aug 31 18:41:52 1996 From: torment at goodnet.com (pomp pood thai) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:41:52 +0800 Subject: Got to be kidding right? Message-ID: At 06:54 PM 8/31/96 EDT, patrick b cummings wrote: >I am planning to make a list of hacker's of america and would appreciate >it for your help. please send me your > handle > e-mail address > city, state > (optional) your mailing address > and url > whether or not you would like to recieve hackers list > type of hacking you do >Thank You for your cooperation $ $ See ya soon... $$ $$ $$ $$ | $ $$$oo oo$$ X $ X^^'$$$$$$^^'$ | X | $ $$$ $ XXX^^^$$^^^$$$ X X X ``$$$'' XX^^^'$$'^^^$$ X%X%X $$$$o XXo o$$ o X $$$$$$ $$$ $$$ oOo o$$$$^ `$$$$$$ $$oo$$ o$$$$$$$'^$$^ $$$$$$$ $$$$ $$$$$$$^ X $$$$$$ $$ $$$$$ ^ X $$$$$$oo$$$$ X $$$$$$$$$$^ X o$$$$$$$$$$^ X o$$$$$$$$$^^ X ^$$$$$$$^ X $$$$$$o | ``$$$4$$ ``$$$ $ Tormentia From qut at netcom.com Sat Aug 31 18:52:18 1996 From: qut at netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:52:18 +0800 Subject: Below-bit-level encoding In-Reply-To: <9608312103.AA11724@castles.com> Message-ID: <199609010005.RAA04542@netcom5.netcom.com> ! how the hell do i get off this list? We won't let you go until you contribute as much hacking tips as you've learned. Sorry, buddy. Perhaps you can start by giving us some bit programming techniques. From joelm at eskimo.com Sat Aug 31 18:59:27 1996 From: joelm at eskimo.com (Joel McNamara) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:59:27 +0800 Subject: Mail OnNet Message-ID: <199609010014.RAA03254@mail.eskimo.com> In my never-ending search for the perfect PGP e-mail client, I just stumbled on to a beta of a product put out by FTP Software called Mail OnNet. Unlike the Pronto Secure and Pegasus, this client actually has PGP code (licensed from PGP Inc.) built directly in. No shelling out to DOS! Very nice interface and almost complete idiot-proof encrypting/decrypting/signing. Extremely powerful rules based processing too. Check out: http://www.ftp.com/mkt_info/onnet32/try.htm IMHO, this is getting very close to transparent secure e-mail for the masses. Joel Two notes. (1) It only runs under Win95 and NT. (2) It's ITAR restricted. From patrickbc at juno.com Sat Aug 31 19:01:30 1996 From: patrickbc at juno.com (patrick b cummings) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:01:30 +0800 Subject: wardialer Message-ID: <19960830.190333.9758.7.patrickbc@juno.com> Does any body know where I can get a half decent war dialer. From mikedoug at texas.net Sat Aug 31 19:38:24 1996 From: mikedoug at texas.net (Michael Douglass) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:38:24 +0800 Subject: BoS: Got to be kidding right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, pomp pood thai wrote: People, I don't particularily agree with this posting, and I already emailed the original poster with my thoughts on that subject. Now, before you reply to this post, please read the charter. BoS is supposed to be the *BEST* of security, not the *LONG-DRAWN-OUT-DISCUSSION-OF-SECURITY-ISSUES*. I understood that I when I subscribe and I have tried to limit any posting to strictly security issues, and only those important and not ones starting threads of conversation. Read the charter! (Who's in charge of this group anyways?? Hope I'm not stepping on toes!) > At 06:54 PM 8/31/96 EDT, patrick b cummings wrote: > >I am planning to make a list of hacker's of america and would appreciate > >it for your help. please send me your > > handle > > e-mail address > > city, state > > (optional) your mailing address > > and url > > whether or not you would like to recieve hackers list > > type of hacking you do > >Thank You for your cooperation Michael Douglass Texas Networking, Inc. "To be a saint is to be an exception; to be a true man is the rule. Err, fail, sin if you must, but be upright. To sin as little as possible is the law for men; to sin not at all is a dream for angels." - Victor Hugo, "Les Miserables" From jkoum at leland.Stanford.EDU Sat Aug 31 20:25:39 1996 From: jkoum at leland.Stanford.EDU (Jan Koum) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:25:39 +0800 Subject: BoS: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I think we all seen and heard what type of people use phrases like: "Thank You for your cooperation". On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Synthesizer Punk wrote: > On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, patrick b cummings wrote: > > :I am planning to make a list of hacker's of america and would appreciate > :it for your help. please send me your > : handle > : e-mail address > : city, state > : (optional) your mailing address > : and url > : whether or not you would like to recieve hackers list > : type of hacking you do > :Thank You for your cooperation > : > : > : > May I ask, ill fatedly, WHY you're doing this? > What goals you wish to accomplish by doing this? > How many friends will you make? > Will you go to Disney World when done? > > sigh > > __ .__https://aleph.tessier.com__ lucas at wasteland.org > _________.__. _____/ |_| |__ ______ __ __ ____ | | __ If privay is > / ___< | |/ \ __\ | \\____ \| | \/ \| |/ / outlawed, only > \___ \ \___ | | \ | | Y \ |_> > | / | \ < outlaws will > /____ >/ ____|___| /__| |___| / __/|____/|___| /__|_ > have privacy. > \/ \/ sXe sXe \/ \/|__| figlet \/just Another P.C. Fascist > Tessier/Ashpool_-//-..()_=+www(ashpool/tessier).com.-+|\ > > > From patrickbc at juno.com Sat Aug 31 20:38:22 1996 From: patrickbc at juno.com (patrick b cummings) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:38:22 +0800 Subject: mailing lists Message-ID: <19960830.205359.4758.1.patrickbc@juno.com> If any body knows any good mailings lists please tell me. -P. Cummings- Patrickbc at juno.com From ichudov at algebra.com Sat Aug 31 20:38:50 1996 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:38:50 +0800 Subject: "Security risks" vs. "credit risks" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199609010153.UAA22411@manifold.algebra.com> Timothy C. May wrote: > There is great danger, to be sure, especially if one's writings and public > utterances become entries into a "threat data base." But I see nothing > unsurprising in, say, American Airlines expressing more interest in Jim > Bell or Tim May, both of whom have written publically about terrorism and > "soft targets," and both of whom have written about how to make pipe bombs, > than in Marianne Smith, retired school teacher from Peoria. ... bobbit ... > > Remember, private airlines are just that: private. Surely we do not support > laws which limit a private airline from using data it has acquired to > decide whom to pay closer attention to. This is the essence of what > knowledge is. > Unfortunately, most private businesses suck up to the government. It is understandable if we note that they can be harassed by the government. Airlines, for example, are under tight and rather arbitrary control of the FAA. - Igor. From wb8foz at nrk.com Sat Aug 31 21:08:05 1996 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:08:05 +0800 Subject: Mail OnNet In-Reply-To: <199609010014.RAA03254@mail.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <199609010219.WAA17853@nrk.com> Joel McNamara sez: > > http://www.ftp.com/mkt_info/onnet32/try.htm > > IMHO, this is getting very close to transparent secure e-mail for the mas= > ses. > Two notes. (1) It only runs under Win95 and NT. (2) It's ITAR restricte= Three. It's stuck in MIME mode. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From invalid at upt.org Sat Aug 31 21:09:38 1996 From: invalid at upt.org (Tom Jackiewicz) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:09:38 +0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: <19960830.174816.9758.3.patrickbc@juno.com> Message-ID: <3228F3AD.7B70E4EA@upt.org> a hackers of america list? that would be really stupid and give the wrong impression. while i am a 'hacker', i would rather not be associated with the media definion of a hacker, and i am sure that this is what your list will be associated with. either that, or be given to the wrong people.. is there any point to all this? i apologize for responding to this thread, but it just seems like a really stupid idea. -- from the superkeen and highly electronic desk of... _ __/| Tom Jackiewicz \'x.X' System/Network Security =(___)= Senior Systems Administrator U invalid at upt.org, invalid at goodnet.com ...fo ksed cinortcele ylhgih dna neekrepus eht morf From minow at apple.com Sat Aug 31 21:32:06 1996 From: minow at apple.com (Martin Minow) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:32:06 +0800 Subject: Ester Dyson's comment on anonymity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Declan McCullagh wrote: >Note Esther Dyson's comments: > > "The damage that can be done by anonymity is far bigger" than in > any other medium, said Esther Dyson, chairwoman of the Electronic > Frontier Foundation. "In the end, you need to be able to get at > somebody's identity to enforce accountability, and the question is how > do you also enforce freedom of speech and freedom from prosecution for > unpopular opinions." I wonder whether Esther was speaking about the Federalist Papers? Who did write those subversive documents anywhy? Martin Minow minow at apple.com From drose at AZStarNet.com Sat Aug 31 21:32:39 1996 From: drose at AZStarNet.com (David M. Rose) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:32:39 +0800 Subject: BoS: Re: your mail Message-ID: <199609010258.TAA18705@web.azstarnet.com> Jan Koum wrote: > Well, I think we all seen and heard what type of people use >phrases like: "Thank You for your cooperation". Yowsuh! We sho' nuffs be all done seen 'em. Stanford, hmm? From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 31 21:41:44 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:41:44 +0800 Subject: Anti-Racist Laws Stifle Political Liberty Message-ID: <199609010253.TAA28257@dns2.noc.best.net> At 09:01 AM 8/29/96 -0700, Dave Harman OBC wrote: > Some examples of dangerous dead letter laws: > > * Abortion > > [...] If > the previous Supreme Court decisions are overturned, most states will > suddenly start enforcing their fascist anti-abortion laws. This seems unlikely; Abortion was illegal in the US for about 75 years before there was any serious attempt to enforce these laws. As soon as people got serious about enforcing them in the 1950s, the shit hit the fan. No semi free country has ever got away with banning abortion unless there was a convenient neighbor a short day trip away, where abortions are reasonably available. (If Ulster went back to Ireland, I predict Irelands policy on abortions would swiftly change) Your points concerning other dangerous dead letter laws are very true. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From chen at chen.com Sat Aug 31 21:43:41 1996 From: chen at chen.com (Mark Chen) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:43:41 +0800 Subject: Elliptic Curve Y**2 = x**3 + a * x**2 + b In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9609010250.AA00997@pela.chen.com.> Wei Dai writes: > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Tom Rollins wrote: > > > Questions are: > > > > 1: How can I take the suqare root mod p ? > > Here's some C++ code for taking modular square roots: > > Integer ModularSquareRoot(const Integer &a, const Integer &p) > { > if (p%4 == 3) > return a_exp_b_mod_c(a, (p+1)/4, p); > > Integer q=p-1; > unsigned int r=0; > while (q%2==0) // while q is even > { > r++; > q >>= 1; > } > > Integer n=2; > while (Jacobi(n, p) != -1) > ++n; > > Integer y = a_exp_b_mod_c(n, q, p); > Integer x = a_exp_b_mod_c(a, (q-1)/2, p); > Integer b = (x.Square()%p)*a%p; > x = a*x%p; > Integer tempb, t; > > while (b != 1) > { > unsigned m=0; > tempb = b; > do > { > m++; > b = b.Square()%p; > if (m==r) > return Integer::ZERO; > } > while (b != 1); > > t = y; > for (unsigned i=0; i t = t.Square()%p; > y = t.Square()%p; > r = m; > x = x*t%p; > b = tempb*y%p; > } > > assert(x.Square()%p == a); > return x; > } > > > 2: How to determine if a solution exists for a > > selected value of x ? > > The Jacobi symbol tells you whether x has a square root mod p: > > // if b is prime, then Jacobi(a, b) returns 0 if a%b==0, 1 if a is > // quadratic residue mod b, -1 otherwise > // check a number theory book for what Jacobi symbol means when b is not > // prime > > int Jacobi(const Integer &aIn, const Integer &bIn) > { > assert(bIn[0]==1); > > Integer b = bIn, a = aIn%bIn; > int result = 1; > > while (!!a) > { > unsigned i=0; > while (a[i]==0) > i++; > a>>=i; > > if (i%2==1 && (b%8==3 || b%8==5)) > result = -result; > > if (a%4==3 && b%4==3) > result = -result; > > swap(a, b); > a %= b; > } > > return (b==1) ? result : 0; > } > > > 3: Is the a simpler method than find a square root ? > > I don't think so. Let me know if you do find one. If you work in GF(2^m), you can use a normal basis representation which allows you to do much faster math. Squaring, for example, becomes a simple rotation. There are also very efficient algorithms for computing inverses and solving quadratics. These speedups currently account for most of the performance improvements which elliptic curve systems offer over their integer-field counterparts. - Mark - -- Mark Chen 415/341-5539 chen at chen.com D4 99 54 2A 98 B1 48 0C CF 95 A5 B0 6E E0 1E 1D From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Aug 31 21:45:43 1996 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:45:43 +0800 Subject: Penet Bites the Dust Message-ID: <199609010253.TAA28252@dns2.noc.best.net> At 12:13 PM 8/30/96 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote: > An interesting Net tidbit. Note that the "International Conference > on Child Sexual Exploitation" in Stolkholm which served as a platform > for these accusations and various coordinated stories in numerous > media outlets is simply a circus put on by ECPAT, a well-known > pressure group whose propaganda is modeled after the now-defunct > National Coalition on Pornography, and whose spurious and laughable > claims about child pornography and vast pedophile conspiracies would fill > volumes. The only odd thing here is that the mainstream press is > presenting this gathering with a perfectly straight face, as if it were > some sort of credible event, which of course it is not. Nothing odd about it. Everytime a new medium appears, the old media run to the politicians to have it controlled and regulated to death. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd at echeque.com From markm at voicenet.com Sat Aug 31 21:47:42 1996 From: markm at voicenet.com (Mark M.) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:47:42 +0800 Subject: WARNING vIRuS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Paul S. Penrod wrote: > Binary launches are the way they do it, and the way a virus spreads, > unless you get caught up with autoexecuting Word and Excel macros. > > I have yet to see *any* truly data propogating viruses. Would you count the fingerd exploit used in the Internet Worm as a data propogating virus? If a poorly written mail program doesn't do bounds checking, it could conceivably allow for a Good Times-like virus. However, highly unlikely, since mail programs are too diverse and it would be very doubtful that a brain-dead mail program would become very widespread. I would be much more worried about other non-email programs that fail to do bounds checking (like Netscape v1.1). -- Mark PGP encrypted mail prefered. Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348 http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ From alanh at widomaker.com Sat Aug 31 22:10:59 1996 From: alanh at widomaker.com (Alan Horowitz) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:10:59 +0800 Subject: FLT 800: From the Rumor Mill...But It Makes Sense.. (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:29:56 -0400 From: Ralph Jennett To: Alan Horowitz Subject: Re: FLT 800: From the Rumor Mill...But It Makes Sense.. The problem is, from my experience at Roosevelt Roads, the Navy never conducts live fire exercises without declaring the area of operation strictly off limits to non-military aircraft. Also, the 747 would have shown up WITH ITS TRANSPONDER DATA on the screens on an Aegis ship, so why would they fire? And, I didn't think that a P3 pilot would fly around in controlled air space with his transponder shut off, especially when he might become a target himself (or just a victum of a mid air collision) if he isn't squawking. I suppose the story that you sent could be true, but if it is, I'm surprised that nothing like that ever happened before, given the sloppy procedures being followed. The latest RELEASED data makes it sound like a bomb in the cabin (row 24, right side) is responsible. I'm not sure that I don't believe that, although I am quite suspicious of anything coming out of the justice department under the current President and Attorney General. From Adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 31 22:12:50 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:12:50 +0800 Subject: PGP Comments Considered Occasionally Harmful Re: Pronto making a comment Message-ID: <19960901031602750.AAA140@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 01:44:15 -0700, stewarts at ix.netcom.com wrote: >>> How did you get Pronto to do a comment? >>I added a "comment=" in my config.txt ;) ... the old fashionned way. >... >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>Version: 2.6.3i >>Charset: ascii >>Comment: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mbabcock/PGP/ > >Note that the comment makes traffic analysis much easier. >Sure, you can send your mail through five different remailers, >but if each layer of PGP has your home page URL or some other >distinctive Comment:, it's traceable. OTOH, a signature has your distinctive key-id anyway. - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From Adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 31 22:31:13 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:31:13 +0800 Subject: WARNING vIRuS! Message-ID: <19960901031602750.AAB140@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:21:05 -0500, kickboxer wrote: > There is a new and VERY dangerous virus called the HAZ-MAT virus! >it fucks up the sectors on your hd, and really messes up the partition >tables. It does this once a week, picking a random time to do it. 99.9% of >virus scanners and other antivirus programs will not recognize it, for it is >a totally new strain, using a never before seen code.... Be warned! The >HAZ-MAT virus usually resides in JPG, and GIF files... once the files are >viewed, the virus takes effect. >scan all images upon download! As soon as you said that, it's obvious it's a hoax. The first law of computer viruses: You have to run a program to get one. JPG and GIF files are *never* executed. There is no possible way for you to get a virus from one. - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us Sat Aug 31 22:40:14 1996 From: ponder at freenet.tlh.fl.us (P. J. Ponder) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:40:14 +0800 Subject: Esther Dyson on Remailers Message-ID: pretty grim reading in the LA Times article if that is really the EFF position on remailers. could someone straighten this out, or at least give us the EFF's view of why remailers are a bad thing? with friends like that, who needs enemies? --------------- So long, Julf - Thank you for a valuable public service! Best of luck to you! -- to unsubscribe, mail to majordomo at toad.com a message that reads: unsubscribe cypherpunks (in the message body, not subject line). From zachb at netcom.com Sat Aug 31 22:53:10 1996 From: zachb at netcom.com (Z.B.) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:53:10 +0800 Subject: wardialer In-Reply-To: <19960830.190333.9758.7.patrickbc@juno.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, patrick b cummings wrote: > Does any body know where I can get a half decent war dialer. > Use a websearch utility, and stop posting to cryptography-based mailing lists. --- Zach Babayco zachb at netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/4127 From Adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 31 22:58:21 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:58:21 +0800 Subject: (null) Message-ID: <19960901040353468.AAA172@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:54:29 EDT, patrick b cummings wrote: >I am planning to make a list of hacker's of america and would appreciate >it for your help. please send me your > handle 3VIL HACK3R > e-mail address hacker at stupid.troll.com > city, state > (optional) your mailing address Paranoia lives deep. I wouldn't count on many addresses from real hackers. > and url http://www.stupid.troll.com/HACK3RZ/k00d_d00d.html > whether or not you would like to recieve hackers list No. > type of hacking you do Dismembering people who post off topic? >Thank You for your cooperation - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From Adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 31 23:04:14 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:04:14 +0800 Subject: Sen. Leahy's "impeccable cyberspace credentials" Message-ID: <19960901042711375.AAA140@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:11:52 EDT, patrick b cummings wrote: >I agree with what you are saying but not all polititions are that bad. >You make it sound as if their are no politisions are for freedom of the >net. For the most part there aren't. Why? Well the media has sensationalized it. How many politicians want to go on record as "protecting the rights of child-pornographers"? Now, this isn't a major portion of Internet usage, but you'd never know that from what you read in the paper. If you only listened to them, it'd be something like this: 40% kiddie-porn 20% terrorists, bomb instructions, etc. 15% "evil hackers" who are going to steal our money, shut off our power, etc. 10% hate groups 10% pornography 03% right-wing gun nuts 02% other (research, entertainment, etc) - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From Adamsc at io-online.com Sat Aug 31 23:27:58 1996 From: Adamsc at io-online.com (Adamsc) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:27:58 +0800 Subject: Los Angeles Times article on Helsingius and anon.penet.fi Message-ID: <19960901041425937.AAA191@IO-ONLINE.COM> On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:54:37 -0700, Lance Cottrell wrote: >>Note Esther Dyson's comments: >> "The damage that can be done by anonymity is far bigger" than in >> any other medium, said Esther Dyson, chairwoman of the Electronic >> Frontier Foundation. "In the end, you need to be able to get at >> somebody's identity to enforce accountability, and the question is how >> do you also enforce freedom of speech and freedom from prosecution for >> unpopular opinions." >Is this the official EFF position on remailers? This strong anti-remailer >position needs to be retracted or widely publicized. I doubt they'd publicize it; it'd probably cost them a *lot* of supporters. - "'Anonymity is bad,' says a source who wishes to remain anonymous." - Nuff' said. * Home: Chris Adams | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp * Autoresponder: send email w/subject of "send resume" or "send PGPKEY" * Work: cadams at acucobol.com | V.M. (619)515-4894 | (619)689-6579 * Member in good standing of the GNU whirled hors d'oeuvre From apache at quux.apana.org.au Sat Aug 31 23:28:12 1996 From: apache at quux.apana.org.au (Charles Senescall) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:28:12 +0800 Subject: Los Angeles Times article on Helsingius and anon.penet.fi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote: > The attached article was reposted to fight-censorship with the permission > of the Los Angeles Times, which ran it on the front page today. [snip] > Note Esther Dyson's comments: > > "The damage that can be done by anonymity is far bigger" than in > any other medium, said Esther Dyson, chairwoman of the Electronic > Frontier Foundation. "In the end, you need to be able to get at > somebody's identity to enforce accountability, and the question is how > do you also enforce freedom of speech and freedom from prosecution for > unpopular opinions." Is this _really_ the EFF policy on anonymopus remailers?? I will check with our local version of the EFF and see what they have to say. If the EFF is not for anonymity it needs to be publicised. Perhaps the EFF has been in bed with the political pigs too long. *OINK* -- .////. .// Charles Senescall apache at quux.apana.org.au o:::::::::/// Fuck TEL$TRA >::::::::::\\\ Finger me for PGP PUBKEY Brisbane AUSTRALIA '\\\\\' \\