On Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 09:35:05 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 02:58:45AM +0000, jim bell wrote: > I've probably said, maybe many times before, that ultimately it is > utterly irrelevant whether a person claims to "like" the AP > concept. It simply doesn't matter if YOU, or anyone else, "likes" > or "dislikes" the idea of AP. I could, hypothetically (and > counter-factually), claim I "hate" it, and what would that do? > That wouldn't fool anyone. AP became inevitable the day I > published it, BECAUSE I published it. > > The idea got out because _I_ had the courage to publish it, UNDER > MY OWN NAME, courage that many on Cypherpunks apparently never > had. I could have concealed it, "lost" it. Eventually it might > have been discovered again, perhaps a few years later. But I, > ever the impatient one, considered for weeks whether exposing the > idea early might allow the government to permanently prevent it. > Having decided that wouldn't happen, THEN I published it. So it > could never be erased from reality. Forever. And yes, I give much > thanks to John Young of Cryptome, who has kept a copy on public > display for 20+ years. > > From the beginning, I claimed that AP, once successfully > implemented, would complete eliminate the need for, and even the > possibility of, militaries, war, and nuclear weapons. Has > anybody else thought of another idea to accomplish that? Has my >I believe anarchism aka "direct democracy" (as I understand that term), is a way to achieve a peaceful transition from the current failed system, yes. : True, but remember David Friedman's "hard problem", published in his 1973 book The Machinery of Freedom. (republished 1989 and 2014)., There were thought to be major problems with having a minarchistic (or anarchistic) region (I won't call it a "country", with its implications in regards to the existence of a government,) Such a region, it was believed by Friedman (and myself, until January 1995, when I invented my AP idea. Although, I was unaware of Friedman's and his "Hard Problem" until long after 1995) would be subject to attack by other nations with the traditional tax-the-citizens and buy-militaries and attack-your-neighbors policies. Do people on Cypherpunks simply accept my claim that I (by inventing AP) described the solution Friedman's "Hard Problem"? That AP foresees, and actually makes unavoidable, militaries, wars, and nuclear weapons? That would be progress, but I don't recall seeing such a discussion. And I've never gotten (that I recall) a response from Friedman, acknowleding that I solved his 'Hard Problem'. Shouldn't he say something? > 1. Everyone votes on, literally, everything. Today this is technologically trivial. One problem with this is that a 'vote' presumes that everybody is bound by the results of a 'vote'. The flavors of ice cream in my freezer aren't there because of any 'vote', are they? > 2. Notwithstanding any and every vote of the collective/ mob, the individual human's right to conscientiously and peacefully object, is sacrosanct and may not be abrogated. >The question is whether the "carrot" of such a peacful transition, is possible in the face of the existing powers that be, without the "stick" of AP. I don't recall seeing such a discussion, >> claim ever been successfully challenged? Or even SERIOUSLY > challenged? Not here, to my knowledge, Does ANY of you have an > argument why an AP-type system won't, or can't, eliminate all > nuclear weapons? 24 years after I wrote it, does the average > protesting IDIOT have any idea that somebody has actually > described the solution to the problem he claims to desire? A > solution he hasn't been told about, not because it wouldn't work, > but instead because it WOULD work. > > Does anybody, NOW, 24 years later, believe that my AP concept was, > is, or should be, "off-topic" on the Cypherpunks list? Has a > more-important idea for the future of mankind ever been discussed > on Cypherpunks? Step right up and claim it! What is the ultimate > purpose of Cypherpunks but to try to eliminate the problems that > government surely causes? > > The Federal Government began to spy on me within weeks, and > probably not more than a few days, after I had published Part 1 of > my AP essay on Digitaliberty. Want to hear more? See my 2003 > lawsuit, [1]http://cryptome.org/jdb/jdb-v-usa-oct2004.pdf at > least Claims 45-49. The Government committed dozens of felonies > in order to further harass me and illegally keep me locked up. > [2]http://cryptome.org/jdb/jdb-v-usa-oct2004.pdf See Claims 504 > onward. > > I think that time has been far more kind to my rhetorical position > than other people's. Prior to the existence of TOR and Bitcoin, > some people might have doubted that pieces necessary to implement > AP were likely to become available. (I'm not saying that TOR or > Bitcoin is suitable; merely that their existence points the way to > the eventual existence of AP as a functioning goal, using other > tools more suitable to the task.) Now, does anybody on Cypherpunks > claim that the technical background of AP could never be > implemented? The best they can do is to claim that governments > won't ALLOW AP to be implemented, because they know they will be > the first targets. > > Remember what I said at the beginning of Part 2 of my AP essay: > > "Part 2 > > "At the Village Pizza shop, as they were sitting down to consume a > pepperoni, Dorothy asked Jim, 'So what other inventions are you > working on?" Jim replied, 'I've got a new idea, but it's really > evolutionary. Literally REVOLUTIONARY.' 'Okay, Jim, which > government are you planning to overthrow?,' she asked, playing > along. > > 'All of them,' answered Jim." " > > This conversation actually occurred, although somewhere along the > way the correct "revolutionary" somehow got changed to > "evolutionary". No, I said "revolutionary" TWICE, and I genuinely > meant it. I was in Roslyn, Washington, the small town that the TV > show 'Northern Exposure' was filmed. Look at the beginning > credits, and you will see it: "Village Pizza". > > [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKDzDA-jgRs at 1:32 > > I was there, sitting next to "Dorothy H.". For at least 5 > years I visited there in one day in early July to meet with other > Northern Exposure fans, "Dorothy H." was one, and without > intending to, she gave me one of the most fantastic and appropriate > straight-lines in the history of conversation. Oddly, as I said, > "All of them", the pizza came...And Dorothy never learned what my > "revolutionary" idea was! But probably days later, I wrote of the > incident in Part 2 of the AP essay. > > And no, the combination of Ethereum and Augur is not, YET, AP. > [4]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17611585 "Its not Jim > Bell's Assassination Politics but we're getting there." (And no, > I didn't write that, and I don't know who did.) But the > difference is merely the choice of those implementing Augur, not a > fundamental limitation of the technology. > > The people who claim to be on the Cypherpunks, ostensibly to help, > need to start considering reality. > Jim Bell >The truth is, most folks would proclaim to prefer a peaceful transition, where they are their families lives remain safe throughout the coming transition. Quite true, but the prospect of the ultimate outcome will likely stop most resistance., >The truth also is, that TPTB ('member the Fed), have demonstrated a few millenia of unwillingness to shift towards giving up their power over the majority. Very true also,. >And in the face of these truths, another truth is that at some tipping point, without a pathway of peace, most folks in angst, distress and an abject loss to any solution, do tip over into accepting literal chaos. >We are at an incredible historical junction, a literal tipping point - although it plays out over some years, historically it's very quick. >Which way will we collectively turn? Certainly something to think about !! References 1. http://cryptome.org/jdb/jdb-v-usa-oct2004.pdf  2. http://cryptome.org/jdb/jdb-v-usa-oct2004.pdf  3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKDzDA-jgRs  4. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17611585