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   From: \0xDynamite <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
   >That's some good bit o' history.
   It was you who asked the question "Without a State, would we have
   electronics?  Radio?"
   I proceeded to answer that question, and others.  You asked the history
   question, I thought the answer was obviousl.
   >  I was really referring to the level
   of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order.
   That sounds like gobbledygook to me.    What do you mean by this?  What
   is a "level of order"?  And why do you (apparently) think that
   government is somehow necessary (or even desireable) to act as a driver
   of technology.   I think the opposite is true.
   > I don't
   think it's possible to argue with that.
   Until we actually UNDERSTAND what you meant, how can someone argue?
   >But I like the sentiment.  I think the problem is more than the State.
   What problem?  I think "the State" is the problem.
   >It's the pathetic infrastructure that would be an eyesore for
   centuries.
   States have been a "pathetic infrastructure" that has been "an eyesore
   for centuries.
           Jim Bell
   On 5/2/17, jim bell <[1]jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
   > From: \0xDynamite <[2]dreamingforward@gmail.com>
   >
   >>Without a State, would we have electronics?  Radio?
   > That's a question which displays a lack of knowledge of technical
   history.
   >  Radio transmission was known as a consequence of Maxwell's
   equations,
   > Maxwell's equations  .    Heinrich Hertz        Electronics can be
   traced to
   > the "Fleming Valve",  Fleming valve   the rectifying diode
   implemented using
   > the Edison effect, which was actually discovered by Frederick
   Guthrie.
   >  Frederick Guthrie    Shortly afterwards, Lee DeForest  Lee de Forest
   > added a grid, which made it possible for the "vacuum tube" to
   oscillate and
   > amplify, leading to radio communications.   Radio broadcasting
   occurred
   > BEFORE government regulation:  Arguably, the need to allow many
   stations to
   > share a limited spectrum made such regulation necessary.
   >
   >>Computers?Computers existed before IC's; I used one, the DEC PDP-7,
   in
   >> 1976-80.   But at about $50,000 in 1964 dollars (about $500,000 in
   >> today's), the average individual wasn't going to buy one. What we
   know
   >> today as "computers" was primarily the product of the invention of
   the
   >> integrated circuit (IC) by MOSFET - Wikipedia   various scientists
   and
   >> engineers. Once the concept of the  Integrated circuit existed, and
   was
   >> seen to follow the scaling described by Moore's law   (initially, in
   the
   >> 1960's, a doubling of transistors on a chip every 12 months; later
   in the
   >> 70's and 80's the doubling period lengthened to 18 months, then to 2
   years
   >> in the 1990's and later), if one transistor was possible in, say,
   1961, 13
   >> years later 2**13 transistors (8192) was possible, in 1974.  So, the
   >> development of early microprocessors such as Intel's 8080, 6502, and
   6800
   >> was virtually assured.  This was definitely NOT the product of
   government!
   >>  And it would have happened regardless of the "space race" of the
   1960's
   >> and 70's.
   > Also, you didn't mention The Internet.  Statists are fond of
   suggesting that
   > the United States government made the Internet possible.  Well, no,
   it
   > didn't.  During a time in which that government was financing
   research, some
   > money was spent to develop network interface controllers Network
   interface
   > controller, which at the time typically fit into a single RETMA 19"
   rack.
   >  Not long afterwards, the same thing could have been (and was)
   implemented
   > by means of more modern IC's.  But at that point, "the Internet" (as
   we know
   > it, or at least knew it in 1995), was still impossible.
   > If you still doubt this, consider:  Why didn't the Internet as we
   know it
   > today exist in 1980?  To me, the answer is simple.  The fastest modem
   in
   > common use by consumers at that time was a 300 bits-per-second, Bell
   103
   > (different Bell!) compatible.  Great improvements followed:  1200 bps
   in
   > about 1981; 2400 bps in 1983, 9800 bps in the early 1990's. Modem
   I'd say
   > it was the latter, 9600 bps, which really made the modern Internet
   plausible
   > for the vast majority of the population.  So, it was the people who
   > developed and built 9600+bps modems that made the Internet (as we
   knew it,
   > in 1995) possible.
   >
   >>  MassTransit?
   > I think most of the New York subway systems were originally privately
   > financed and built.  Similarly, most railroads.  Similarly bus lines.
    And
   > airlines.
   >
   >> Bikes?
   >
   > BTW, you haven't forgotten that powered human flight was first
   accomplished
   > by Orville and Wilbur Wright, two bicycle mechanics.
   >>And if we need a State, what form should it take?
   >
   > Written into history books as events long past.
   >           Jim Bell
   >
   >

References

   1. mailto:jdb10987@yahoo.com
   2. mailto:dreamingforward@gmail.com