On 11/20/2016 08:30 PM, jim bell wrote:

   From: Razer [1]<rayzer@riseup.net>
   On 11/20/2016 03:05 PM, jim bell wrote:

     >>"socially-permissive republican", that approximates a libertarian.
      But you could have also said, "an economically-permissive
     democrat..."

   >"socially-permissive republican" is not the mainstream of the
   Republican party,
   True.  But they are getting closer to this ideal.

   [*Coughs* and throws up a little in his mouth...]

   > economically-permissive democrat IS in the mainstream in that party
   NUTS!   In any society where some people can be taxed at 50% of their
   income (add federal, state, local, sales tax, property tax), that is
   NOT "economically-permissive"!!!  Obviously, your idea of
   "economically-permissive" is CRACKED.

   50% of $50 million (for instance) must be REALLY TOUGH on them. While
   the guy who picks the food they eat lives in a cardboard box in the
   field or a TB-infected "Campo" (A few of these in the Monterey area
   look as bad as any NYC tenement with exposed wiring, black mold etc.
   I've seen them personally.)

   Libertarians believe taxation is left.  If you don't believe that, you
   can't be a libertarian.  And if you truly don't even understand that
   libertarians believe taxation is theft, you are utterly clueless.

   I don't believe that taxation in and of itself is theft. I think the
   people who diburse the taxes (the government) are thieves. THEY get to
   decide what the money is used for ... in the interest of people who are
   often QUITE Libertarian, instead of the people in the community or
   society at large deciding... You need the chart from Gilens and Page
   for that statement about who has say in US policy decisions?
   [2]http://auntieimperial.tumblr.com/post/85720026694
   Oh RIGHT I extrapolate on your previous statement about communities
   being evilly collectivist. You don't believe that communities and
   societies people live within should have a say, that it all about ME
   and MY MONEY and fuck you! I'll build the road and YOU can't use it b/c
   MY money (or play favorites ...Ie cronyism, or toll the road)... etc ad
   nauseum

   > if you consider the regulations made DEFINITELY work in favor of
   capitalists (employers, financial industry) and not the workers. The
   capitalists say that's not true. Regulation hurts them. But "Hurts
   them" means it prevents them from having it all."
   It's hard to know what you are talking about.
   "Economically-permissive" doesn't merely mean "permissive only for
   business people".  That would be called "crony-capitalism", not to be
   confused with "crony socialism", etc.

   The libertarians I know who own small businesses EXEMPLIFY Crony
   Capitalism Yup... One's a stone cold racist who owns a coffee shop and
   made a point of naming a Kenyan blend after Obama.

   >Ps. You're discussing this with someone who thinks the two parties are
   really two right wing factions of a one party state with the belief in
   'manifest destiny' and 'nationalist exceptionalism' (fascism you know?)
   as ideology.
   Yes, and I consider myself an anarchist.  But that does not mean that
   the Republicans and Democrats arent at least distinguishable.  They
   have different faults, for instance.

     >>Further, Fascists lead you to believe people have rights until
     your rights interfere with their sociopolitical needs. That's a US
     Libertarian, defined.

   >>You will have to be more specific.  Which "sociopolitical needs"?
   Which "rights"?

   >Hitler needed Euro Jews for slave labor to create his great war
   machine sociopolitically and economically.
   >Their rights.
   Your last few lines would make sense, except for your "convenient"
   insertion of "US Libertarian" into the mix.

   Duly noted. It's called cognitive dissonance.

   >Libertarians are fine with underpaid labor in the fields because it's
   the natural order of things that bright minds with bright ideas, like
   (snigger) app designers and database wonks are paid a fortune and the
   people who feed them live in refrigerator boxes in fields ... b/c "Free
   Market".
   What's your definition of "underpaid"?

   See above or earlier about fieldhands living in a cardboard box or
   TB-infested Campo. That's because they can't afford rent despite the
   fact they work 12 hours a day 7 days a week sunrise to sunset, until
   the harvest is finished.
   Underpaid. Any questions?

    Libertarians believe in the Free Market.  Well, we don't have much of
   a free market, but at least the concept is understandable.

   It's like believing in the easter bunny, or for that matter a world
   without cops and armies.
   Pot won't get you there... Better "chase dragons".
   [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasing_the_dragon
   Rr

             Jim Bell

References

   1. mailto:rayzer@riseup.net
   2. http://auntieimperial.tumblr.com/post/85720026694
   3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasing_the_dragon