2014-10-27 4:48 GMT+02:00 Griffin Boyce <[1]griffin@cryptolab.net>: Dāvis Mosāns wrote: Anyway GamerGate is really complex issue and it's not only about journalism. My suggestion would be, look here If gamergaters spent half as much time trying to fix systemic problems that they claim to care about as they do correcting "misconceptions" about gamergate, I *might* start to take them seriously. Want to fix games journalism? Why not start with the large corporations that bribe their way into getting good reviews at large publications that lead to millions of dollars in sales. Target EA, who just this week went to court to defend against a class-action lawsuit filed by gamers. While the court found in their favor, they *also* determined that the statements put out by EA were "puffery" and did not reflect reality. How will this impact the industry going forward? Does #GamerGate bother having an opinion on this? I don't really see how anything could be fixed or like what steps gamers should take to fix it? Also I haven't seen any bribing accusations and if someone would have a proof, I'm sure there would huge backslash and probably lawsuit. Of course gamers know that EA is 2nd worst game company, right after Ubisoft, but there's nothing really changeable about it as a lot of people still buy their games and will continue to do so, because they've some good games and others just don't care about it. Anyway people talk most about what other's share and talk about so that's exactly why there's nothing much about anything else, people just don't talk about it. So you really need some controversially otherwise that story won't be talked about, because there's nothing more to say than - "that's bad". Targeting female indie developers is complete weaksauce. And the fact that this comprises the vast majority of #GamerGate's "activism" proves the allegation that it's filled with whiny man-babies. GamerGate is not about that, you've read too much into some propaganda. I know only single such case about 1 game. And I haven't seen any harassers admitting that they do it for GamerGate or journalism, but IMO they're just trolls who like to use this opportunity. They like publicity (even if it's bad) and that's what they're getting. I'm not sure if you can imagine this mindset, but I can't deny that it must be exciting to read news story about death threats you wrote. It actually encourages to do it again. There's well know internet Rule 14 "Do not argue with trolls — it means that they win." so as usual - Don't feed the trolls. And note, that, it's not only gamers who support GamerGate, but also game developers, including females (see #NotYourShield). You know what I *don't* care about? People I don't know who supposedly shagged other people I don't know. No one whose opinion matters cares about this hypothetical scandal. It's all a pseudo-intellectual circlejerk. You either care about journalistic ethics enough to target large corporations and key players, or you're just fucking around. Seriously. This is as true for you (yes, you personally) as it is for the #NSA #GCHQ crowd. I don't really care either, but look at this thread, we're still here writing our opinions about it. Also if you've some recent examples of you're named large gaming corporation wrongdoings then tell them and I'll gladly share them with others. 2014-10-27 12:11 GMT+02:00 Cathal Garvey <[2]cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me>: So, a 'movement' that claims to want "journalistic integrity", which absent press censorship means "self regulation", can't be bothered policing its own ranks to stop misogynistic slander and death-threats. How many "Gamergaters" spend time chasing others for doxxing, threatening and slandering women in technology? As many as actually take part in these acts? I doubt it, and I see no evidence of such self-policing at a meaningful scale. like that would be possible. GamerGate is anonymous, leaderless movement without precisely defined goal and means how to acquire it. It's somewhat similar to Anonymous. Also why anti-GamerGate people can't be bothered policing their own ranks? There are a lot of examples how they harass GamerGate supporters, eg. [3]https://twitter.com/QueenyMartha/status/522531549393076224 and for a lot more look [4]http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com/ Like I said, trolls are everywhere. And actually you're wrong about this, there are so called "#GamerGate Harassment Patrol" where they report any harassment they see, look at this [5]http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/10/25/While-the-Media-Sl anders-Gamers-as-Terrorists-GamerGate-Is-Hunting-Trolls-and-Abusers while anti-GamerGate just keep claiming how misogynistic GamerGate is without doing anything else. To be honest, I don't see their point at all. Let's assume that GamerGate indeed is all misogynists and so what? It's not like anything will change because some feminists are offended. I'm sure there are honest, decent people using the "Gamergate" flag to call for something-something, but the fact that they're using that flag after it's been so thoroughly dragged through the muck *by other gamergaters* shows that they are content to accept misogyny in exchange for trending status on Twitter, rather than forking what's become more of a *bowel* movement into something with a measure of the integrity they claim to demand of others. It was media and new stories who smeared it all and they are not admitting that they made mistake by presenting it as just a hate movement, if that would be case, it would have ended a long time ago. Also about accepting misogyny - I just don't see it. Some people have concentrated on that so much that they don't see anything else. Anyway I've too different opinion about this and IMO this discussion is pointless timewaste. I would even say it could be classified as spam for this list as I don't really see what's here related to Cyberpunk. References 1. mailto:griffin@cryptolab.net 2. mailto:cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me 3. https://twitter.com/QueenyMartha/status/522531549393076224 4. http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com/ 5. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/10/25/While-the-Media-Slanders-Gamers-as-Terrorists-GamerGate-Is-Hunting-Trolls-and-Abusers