Cryptocurrency: Privacy Coin Freedom Exposes Malevolence of the Deep State and its Survival Plan Against You

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Debt & MoneyBank accounts overdrawn, missing and suspended without
warning, bank won't talk to me (self.LegalAdviceUK) 596

submitted 3 days ago by suspendedbankaccs1

Hey everyone,

Yesterday I attempted to login to my HSBC account with the app and
couldn't login.

It kept telling me:

    There appears to be a problem with your account. Please call
Customer Services on xxxxxxxxxx

So I called HSBC and was told that my account was suspended and that
they can't talk to me, they'll send me a letter in a few weeks.

Today, I've found that my bank accounts with Santander have
disappeared from the app and my Barclays savings and current accounts
are overdrawn by -£500,000 - which is insane! that account had less
than £10k in it. The Barclays account has a transaction for -£500,000
with the description "to reconcile" - I didn't make that transaction
and i don't know what it means.

I called Barclays, and initially they were very polite but as soon as
I gave them my info the agent dropped his tone, ignored my complaints
and just told me that they are undertaking their legal duties -
without telling me what that means and that they'll be in contact. He
wouldn't transfer me to a manager or give me a timeframe.

Santander have told me that they are "reconsidering our business
relationship" and that they "have concerns about the transaction
coming into my account".

The Santander app now says

    We couldn't log you onto online services. This account type cannot
be accessed from this device. Please try again later.

I'm really confused about this reason, because I pay HMRC all the tax
owed on all transactions coming into my business.

This is really effecting my side business, being able to hold/send
funds is a central aspect and I can't receive payment or process
transactions.

​

How do I solve this? Can I sue the bank for illegally and needlessly
suspending my accounts?

Are they allowed to discriminate against me just because of the type
of business I run?

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[–]SecMac 339 points 3 days ago

Process transactions on behalf of clients? Sounds like the service
could be used to facilitate money laundering/ illicit payments by
those clients, and in turn through the businesses (your) bank
accounts.

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[–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -229 points 3 days ago

Because it's Monero, I have no way of knowing the real source of the payments.

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[–]Vasyrr 427 points 3 days ago

There's your problem.

WIllful ignorance is no defense, you are REQUIRED to know the sources
of funds passing through your accounts, remaining purposefully
ignorant is not a defense that will help you as anyone laundering
money could claim the same.

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[–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -244 points 3 days ago

What requires me to know the sources of funds? Monero is just a
digital asset, there is no difference between me sending you 10 Monero
and a criminal sending you 10 Monero - there is no way to tell.

My exchange provider doesn't ask questions about the source of funds,
they don't even ask for my name, email or address.

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[–]kwolat 403 points 3 days ago

(Anti) Money Laundering is all about untraceable assets like cash,
jewellery, property, etc...

If you're depositing a not insignificant amount of funds into their
bank account and can not identify the source, the bank's gonna freak
out.

TBH, everything you're describing has red flags aaaaaaall over it from
an AML point of view.

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[–]iain_1986 262 points 3 days ago*

    What requires me to know the sources of funds?

The banks and the government do.

    Monero is just a digital asset, there is no difference between me
sending you 10 Monero and a criminal sending you 10 Monero - there is
no way to tell.

Which is why they are rapidly going to sever ties with you.

You need to lawyer up.

Edit - and I don't mean lawyer up because you have a case and are in
the right...

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[–]Expensive-Monk-6517 98 points 3 days ago

KYC legislation.

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[–]proper_mint 198 points 3 days ago

You’re required to know the source of the funds under the Proceeds of
Crime Act. If you operate in a regulated sector (basically anything to
do with finance) you are required to carry out due diligence (know
your client) on your customer.

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[–]I_WANT_SAUSAGES 175 points 3 days ago

    there is no difference between me sending you 10 Monero and a
criminal sending you 10 Monero

Kind of sounds like there may literally be no difference....

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[–]bulletproof_alibi 464 points 3 days ago

So you're operating some sort of unregulated cryptocurrency
exchange/payment service?

Stop posting on Reddit and find a good solicitor first thing in the
morning. If you're really lucky you've only gotten yourself involved
in a small tax or fraud investigation. If you're unlucky, you've been
dealing with with sanctioned individuals or organisations.

"Fixing" this at this stage may mean avoiding a custodial sentence.

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[–]Lloydy_boyThe world ain't fair and Santa ain't real 450 points 3 days ago

So 3 different banks have shut your accounts down, it sounds like a
money laundering/ fraud operation is in place.

    How do I solve this?

You can’t. It’s entirely out of your hands, you’ll just have to wait
the outcome of the investigations.

    Can I sue the bank for illegally and needlessly suspending my accounts?

No, it won’t be illegal it’ll either have been done under instruction
from the police (as 3 accounts affected), or because it has triggered
the banks own policies and allowable under the Ts&Cs of your agreement
with the bank.

    Are they allowed to discriminate against me just because of the
type of business I run?

How discriminate? What type of business, are you by any chance a slave
trader then?

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[–]Altruistic-Beach7625 53 points 3 days ago

Can this thing happen if I get transferred pity money from a family
member because I'm poor?

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[–]Lloydy_boyThe world ain't fair and Santa ain't real 25 points 3 days ago

Can be for any incoming/outgoing transaction that the bank(s) don’t
think is from/to legitimate funds/sources.

You say in the OP “one account had less than £10k in it”, unless that
amount is zero, and what with running your own business, I think
you’ll struggle to convince anyone you’re poor.

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[–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -94 points 3 days ago

I sell Monero payment processor software as a SaaS product.

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[–]ig1 249 points 3 days ago

Do you have a licence as an EMI?

>From what you’ve described you may well have been running an illegal
financial services product. There’s a non-zero chance you might get a
police visit (or raid if you’re unlucky).

You should speak to a lawyer ASAP.

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[–]dave8271 157 points 3 days ago

Did you check if your business was in scope for FCA registration
before you started and register if appropriate?

https://www.fca.org.uk/cryptoassets-aml-ctf-regime/register

Because if the nature of your business means you were supposed to
register and you didn't, short version is you've made a significant
mistake and this is almost certainly not going away quickly or easily;
your accounts being frozen could potentially be the least of your
worries. Based off what information you've posted in this thread I'd
be inclined to suggest you talk to a proper solicitor ASAP.

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[–][deleted] 3 days ago*

[removed]

[–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -134 points 3 days ago

I'm not money laundering

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[–]multijoy 214 points 3 days ago

You may not be. But can you be sure that your commission isn’t coming
from the crypto being laundered through your processor?

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[–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -163 points 3 days ago

Well, I can't. Monero is untraceable.

I can't not prove that funds are being laundered as the source of my funds.

But neither can they prove that the funds are laundered.

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[–]Browntown-magician 230 points 3 days ago

Then eventually they’re going to end their relationship with you.

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[–]Angustony 176 points 3 days ago

They don't need to prove anything to end your business relationship.
Read your T&C's. They are legally obligated to be sure that your funds
are not laundered. They can't be sure, because Monero. To them, you
are too risky to be worth the business and so they're not taking any
chances. With the AML regulations as they are, companies like Monero
are hard work.

Looks like you need to get paid in BTC instead...

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[–]Superjacketts 69 points 3 days ago

They don't need to prove anything, they can close your accounts for
any reason they want to as per your terms and conditions.

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[–]A17012022 126 points 3 days ago

Then you're pretty much fucked then chap.

NAL and all but every bank is legally obligated to be sure that your
funds aren't laundered.

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[–]Happycatlady1982 56 points 3 days ago

They don't need to prove it, you do unfortunately.

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[–]BSturdy987 25 points 3 days ago

To a bank that seems sketchy

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[–]mosleyowl 42 points 3 days ago

But if there may be a chance that it is, why would they risk it?

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[–]PerformanceBoth1781 42 points 3 days ago*

What this essentially is, is trying to prove a negative and in all
honestly proving a negative just simply doesn't work and is heavily
against you for example proving a negative is what people have to do
in order to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment where the
burden of proof is innocent beyond a reasonable doubt only 3 (out of
98 (%3.06)) of people wrongfully imprisoned in 2019/20 recieved
compensation for wrongful imprisonment there was 0 successful
applications from 2017 to 2019. These are criminal cases by the way
where lawyers and those with legal expertise argued the cases.

Now the case you are describing is where you have to do the same,
prove you are not laundering money or commiting fraud with an
anonymous payment. But with the scenario you have put yourself in,
this will be a herculean task and in all honestly not likely to win.

Banks have an obligation to make sure money isn't being moved around
illegally and therefore have taken the safe option and taken these
safety measures.

Obviously this would most likely be a civil matter where the burden of
proof would be on the balance of probablities this however is a double
edge sword and one that is likely to cut you since you are once again
having to try and prove something that is inherently unprovable, where
as all the banks have to do is say "well the chances are that this
sort of stuff is used for illegal purposes due to the pattern and
known methods of Monero and we have an obligation to protect ourselves
and stop illegal activity" short of tracking down every transaction
defeating the purpose of Monero to get your evidence your case will be
horribly weak

edit: While this may not contain any facts about the law or legal
arguments, this comment is meant to highlight how much of an uphill
battle this case would be on an evidentiary basis and what kind of
hoops you would be expected to jump through if you wanted even a
chance of winning

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[–]Miserable_Mix_6253 151 points 3 days ago*

Sounds like the NCA might well be involved if it’s multiple banks -
following like might explain some bits

https://www.saunders.co.uk/services/commercial-litigation/regulatory-law-crime/bank-freezing-orders/

As for the £500,000 “in the red” I’m guessing that’s something to do
with the way their systems work to lock your accounts out rather than
that money has been taken.

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[–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -91 points 3 days ago

Wouldn't they have arrested me by now if that was the case?

I don't think it's illegal to sell/buy crypto.

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[–]BossImpossible8858 239 points 3 days ago*

Its very likely they would not have arrested you yet.

They will only arrest you when they have enough evidence to charge you.

In a financial case, that takes time. The bank will drop you on day
one, the police might take a month or two to put it all together.

It is frightening that you don't seem to have the first clue about
anti money laundering law. Breaking it (which it 100% sounds like
you've done) can get you up to 14 years in prison and a huge fine.

Saying "well I don't know where the money came from" is precisely the
problem. You are legally responsible to know where the money came
from.

Not understanding that you are breaking the law is not a defence and
most of the time is entirely to your detriment. If you said half the
things you've said in this thread at police interview, you'd pretty
much have done their job for them.

Go and see a solicitor, you are clearly in well over your head.

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[–]Miserable_Mix_6253 96 points 3 days ago

No - if it’s currently under investigation NCA/Police can legally bar
your bank from telling you what’s going to and freeze accounts for up
to two years (from memory).

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[–]Smellytangerina 59 points 3 days ago

It’s not illegal to buy/sell crypto, or even facilitate it. However if
you look at Bizlato (just Google it and a lot will come up) then you
can see that there are things that the NCA, in cooperation with Us law
enforcement, might well want to investigate.

And that’s a whole other ballgame, if you get caught up in one of
those investigations then you can expect this to take a while.

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[–]claimsmansurgeon 152 points 3 days ago

    How do I solve this? Can I sue the bank for illegally and
needlessly suspending my accounts?

It's unlikely to be illegal. Major banks don't just suspend accounts
for fun. You've almost certainly tripped some sort of money laundering
or fraud alert. If that's the case then they're not allowed to tell
you what's happening. If they do then both the organisation and the
person who tells you are opening themselves up to a criminal
prosecution.

    Are they allowed to discriminate against me just because of the
type of business I run?

In a nutshell, yes. And I suspect this is where the problems lie. What
sort of business do you run?

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[–]Leto2AndTheCrew 96 points 3 days ago

This exactly. I work at a bank and experience it from the other side.

The moment these flags are on your account, nobody in the entire
company will talk to you except the one division that handles it. And
they won’t say much.

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[–]Stanjoly2 120 points 3 days ago

Jumping on the top comment to say re Barclays

OP your Barclays account is suspended under section 11 of their terms
and conditions (they should have told you this when you called).

They do not - in fact they must not tell you anything more than that,
or risk 'tipping off'. This is an anti money laundering thing and you
WILL NOT get them to budge until they've finished their investigation.

What they should do however, is tell you that you can make withdrawals
in cash, in branch, WITH proof of funds - e.g. wage slips/proof of
benefits/etc.

In terms of the £500k "to reconcile". This is just something Barclays
does to make an account unuseable but still functional. The "to
reconcile" thing just means Barclays removed the money themselves.

At some point in the next few days you may get a phonecall from their
Fraud Investigations team. They are going to ask you a bunch of
questions. Be truthful and don't be belligerent.

After all this there is a decent chance they will close your account.
This doesn't mean they think you did anything wrong, it just means
they've decided its not worth the risk to keep your business.

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[–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] 5 points 3 days ago

I sell Monero payment processor software as a SaaS product. I pay all
the tax I need to and declare it to HMRC every year.

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[–]claimsmansurgeon 117 points 3 days ago

It doesn't matter that you pay taxes. A lot of banks are very wary of
cryptocurrencies due to the fact they can easily be used for criminal
activities or money laundering. I'm almost certain this will be why
you're having trouble and it wouldn't surprise me if the banks had
terms and conditions saying they won't get involved in crypto.

At the end of the day the bank is free to choose who they do business
with and it sounds like they don't want to do business with you.

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[–]suspendedbankaccs1[S] -23 points 3 days ago

But how is it possible they were all suspended at the same time? I
only use the HSBC account for the business, not Santander or Barclays.

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[–]Remote-Pool7787 160 points 3 days ago

Because you’ll be under investigation by the same body. It’s not the
banks themselves that will be investigating

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[–]Competitive_Joke_966 50 points 3 days ago

If you’re operating as a sole trader then all your assets are liable
in the event of damages. If you’re doing any business with sizeable
risk, you should consider setting up a private limited company. This
separates you personally from the business. If the business owes a
debt, you are not personally responsible. If the business bank account
is under investigation, only any money you make as dividends can be
personally investigated.

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[–]claimsmansurgeon 39 points 3 days ago

They might share information between the organisations. Or you might
have some sort of marker against you personally

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[–]Due_Biscotti_7378 78 points 3 days ago

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of this, and accusations against
you, the veracity thereof etc:

Your accounts have all been suspended simultaneously.

Occasionally, banks suspecting foul pay will suspend accounts
themselves, as they are required to act somewhat proactively to avoid
misuse of their services etc.

If all have acted at once, then they've been instructed to do so by an
external authority, and themselves have no choice in the matter.

All you can do, at this stage, is wait, and maybe use the time in the
meantime to seek legal advice from solicitors.

Essentially, the validity of your business aside, someone is confident
enough that there is something untoward going on that they've been
able to get authority to demand this, and whilst HMRC, the NCA etc can
do this, they do have to meet reasonably high criteria internally -
none of which you have any right to question at this stage.

If your business is legit, it's likely that one of your users hasn't
been. The slightly more likely scenario is that your business setup is
in some way faulty - you haven't registered with the correct
regulators or something like that.

This is probably the end of your business, and the best course forward
is selling the product software, when this is dealt with.

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[–]dave8271 223 points 3 days ago

Barclays setting your accounts to -£500k is just how they suspend them
during AML investigations, it means you can't pay anything out but
someone (potentially relating to criminal activity) can still pay
money in without being "tipped off".

Barclays did this to me and my accounts were frozen for around 14
days. They subsequently closed my accounts even though I'd done
nothing illegal or wrong.

If this is happening to you with MULTIPLE banks, that suggests
something more serious is afoot and possibly a SAR has been raised
with the NCA and they've ordered the freezes while you're
investigated.

Also definitely worth you raising a subject access request with CIFAS
to see if you've been flagged there, you can do this for free on their
website.

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[–]geftactics 25 points 3 days ago

Do you get your original funds back in the scenario where they end up
closing accounts?

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[–]ugly_girl_doll 47 points 3 days ago

Not if they think the funds in the account are the proceeds of crime.

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[–]luffy8519 68 points 3 days ago*

>From the CPS guidance on money laundering under the Proceeds of Crime Act:

    Section 328 states that “a person commits an offence if he enters
into or becomes concerned in an arrangement which he knows or suspects
facilitates (by whatever means) the acquisition, retention, use or
control of criminal property by or on behalf of another person.”

So they don't have to prove that you knew your service was being used
for money laundering, they only have to prove that you could have
suspected it is. And given the reputation of monero, and your service
is specifically for that currency, they may be confident they could
make that argument.

    This offence includes a wide range of activity involving those who
launder on behalf of others, usually at the layering and integration
stages. It can catch individuals who work in financial or credit
institutions, accountants or other professionals, who facilitate money
laundering by or on behalf of others, in the course of their work.

So it also covers transaction processors.

Also:

    The inclusion of the wording “has reasonable grounds for knowing
or suspecting” reflects the fact that individuals who carry out
activities in the regulated sector are expected to exercise a higher
level of diligence in handling transactions than those employed in
other businesses.

I don't know if it's been tested in court yet or not, but I'm pretty
sure facilitating cryptocurrency payments would fall under the
definition of a regulated sector under Schedule 9.

So basically, your statement that you have no way of knowing what your
service is used for may not be relevant if they can prove that you are
operating in a regulated sector and did not take reasonable steps to
prevent money laundering. If I were you, I'd be speaking to a
solicitor ASAP.

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[–]International-Pass22 132 points 3 days ago

Sounds like your business is being used to launder money (whether you
know it or not is irrelevant)

The crypto you're processing is a favourite of fraudsters and drug
dealers, which you must know

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[–]gingeropolous -48 points 3 days ago

As was/is Bitcoin

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[–]Nicricieve 79 points 3 days ago

At least with bitcoin every single miner knows every single
transaction (all of them), where it came from and where it went,
Monero is designed so nobody knows anything other than they've got or
spent some Monero

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[–]OfWhomIAmChief -52 points 3 days ago

Sorta like cash, sounds like a great feature.

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[–]Nicricieve 39 points 3 days ago

Yeah but even cash is a little bit traceable

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[–]OfWhomIAmChief -71 points 3 days ago

So a better implementation of cash? Sounds phenomenal..

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[–]CorgiDad -57 points 3 days ago

It IS phenomenal. It is true fungible digital cash, better than the
physical stuff in almost every measure.

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[–]iain_1986 122 points 3 days ago

    better than the physical stuff in almost every measure.

Sure it is.

Said in a thread with someone being shut down for fraud for processing it...

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[–]akl78 49 points 3 days ago

OP, I can’t emphasise enough that the first thing you need to do this
morning is talk to a solicitor, ideally one specialising in financial
crime but failing that a gêner criminal defense one can refer you to a
specialist . From what you say you are under investigation for a
variety of matters, likely in part to do with providing unauthorised
financial services but more importantly failure to prevent or activity
engaging in money laundering- expect very serious discussions, soon,
about (large) fines and prison time.

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[–]potatoking1991 16 points 3 days ago

NAL but former bank staff. It sounds like you've triggered some kind
of anti money laundering investigation, payments to/from sanctioned
countries or individuals. It was rare that we came across an account
with this kind of full block but it was normally suspicion of illicit
activity.

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[–]Struan-Ruins 36 points 3 days ago

NAL but used to do this for a living. It’s likely they suspect you of
money laundering and to comply with regulations they will suspend the
account, basically making it look (to you) like it doesn’t exist. They
will then conduct and investigation internally and if it all adds up
they will release the funds and close the account, or if there is a
more substantial money laundering issue the money will be confiscated.

It’s normal during this process to have very little contact from the
bank and most will be in the form of a letter.

Sorry this probably won’t make you feel better but just an indication
of what might be going on.

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[–]kurtis5561 16 points 3 days ago

Are you running your "business" from personal or business banking
facilities? That could have triggered a check as well.

This all sounds very fishy and I'd contact a solicitor asap

It's unlikely this is going to be your only issue.

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[–]wildgoldchai 18 points 3 days ago

Aside from general advice, this is beyond what help this sub can
offer. As suggested, it really is key for you to contact a solicitor
to help you deal with this matter. At this point, the frozen accounts
are the least of your worries as there may be ground to prosecute you.

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[–]UltimateSpuddifier 11 points 3 days ago*

It sounds like you could've been flagged for potential financial crime
- the reason they won't tell you anything could be to do with avoiding
tipping off as per anti money laundering. You need a solicitor as soon
as possible and you need to be completely honest with said solicitor.

Edit: Edit to add NAL and that I went through financial crime training
in my last job.

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[–]jrjunkie 8 points 3 days ago

The banks are calling you out for sus activities or the HMRC has
applied for AFrO for all your acconts. Pending Westminster court
decision, which you will usually receive a hearing notice a few days
before. That court decision is on suspicion only (Crime of Proceeds
Act); after decision granted you usually get 6 months to prove
otherwise, and 2 years until they apply for AFO to forfeit all funds
in your accounts.

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[–][deleted] 3 days ago

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[–]kurtis5561 6 points 3 days ago

Just throwing it out there. Having done my Cert CII in insurance and
understanding AML/Tipping off. I fear this thread could be seen as
potentially tipping off. In a very loose term. But something we should
be mindful of.

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[–]Talk_Relative 4 points 3 days ago

Just to let you know that all of your accounts will likely be exited
and they will issue a cheque. The letters will probably on the way.

Alternatively there may be a freezing order on your accounts which can
be done by HMRC or a number of agencies.

It will come under risk appetite but the letter will say that we can’t
offer you banking services anymore. They also will put markers on to
make sure you can’t bank with them in the future.

The best thing you could do is open a account with a new provider so
the funds can be put into the new account.

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[–]akl78 4 points 3 days ago

Except doing that is generally legal. Given what he admits to doing
here OP’s frozen bank accounts are not his main problem.

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[–]kurtis5561 3 points 3 days ago

Agreed. The content could be morally questionable and the bank can
refuse business on morality grounds.

I know insurers do use this clause a fair bit "you are morally
uninsurable" when I worked at a large broker. Aviva would insure
anyone without loading. Where as the likes of ERS took their moral
duty seriously.

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[–]Abstractteapot -44 points 3 days ago*

Is it possible to get a friend to loan you money so you can speak to
someone who has legal expertise in fraud and banking suspension etc..

You need someone who know about fraud investigations who can really
look into it for you.

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