Cryptocurrency: Dubai Bans All Crypto Privacy Coins, Your World Is Next, WarOnCrypto WarOnPrivacy

grarpamp grarpamp at gmail.com
Wed Feb 8 22:09:36 PST 2023 

These total hypocrites allow anonymous Gold and Cash.

Every single time that you "wait for regulation" you will
continue to get fucked because you didn't stand up for and
demand your rights and Crypto Freedom.
Stop Getting Fucked, Stop being such fucking sheep,
and start fucking them instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWAwK2fHArc No Regulators !!!


Dubai Prohibits Privacy Coins Like Monero Under New Crypto Rules

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/02/08/dubai-prohibits-privacy-coins-under-new-crypto-rules/

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/02/07/dubai-mandates-licensing-for-crypto-companies-as-it-sets-out-regulatory-requirements/
https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/05/29/japans-ban-is-a-wake-up-call-to-defend-privacy-coins/
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/11/15/privacy-enhancing-crypto-coins-could-be-banned-under-leaked-eu-plans/
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/03/09/dubai-adopts-initial-crypto-law-establishes-independent-authority-for-oversight/
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/11/09/dubai-presses-for-crypto-companies-to-set-up-shop/
https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/iti467/perkins_coie_whitepaper_antimoney_laundering/
https://www.perkinscoie.com/en/news-insights/anti-money-laundering-regulation-of-privacy-enabling-cryptocurrencies.html
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-law-for-a-VPN-in-Dubai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates
https://www.vara.ae/media/Virtual%20Assets%20and%20Related%20Activities%20Regulations%202023.pdf
https://www.dawateislami.net/magazine/en/evils-of-society/false-accusation


The issuance of anonymity-enhancing crypto are banned under the
Emirate's new regulations for digital assets.

In Dubai, the issuance of, and all activities related to,
anonymity-enhancing cryptocurrencies such as monero (XMR) are
prohibited under new laws published Tuesday.

The jurisdiction in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) published its
long-awaited crypto regulations, which sets licensing and
authorization requirements for virtual asset companies and issuers
looking to operate in Dubai.

The new rules define anonymity-enhancing crypto as "a type of Virtual
Asset which prevents the tracing of transactions or record of
ownership through distributed public ledgers and for which the
[Virtual Asset Service Provider] has no mitigating technologies or
mechanisms to allow traceability or identification of ownership."

Regulators in other jurisdictions like Japan have also taken steps to
prohibit privacy-enhancing crypto. The European Union is also
considering prohibiting tokens that hinder traceability.

"Any obfuscation of fund flows poses a challenge to detecting illicit
activities, so it is unsurprising that regulators react strongly to
these kinds of asset classes and mechanisms,” said Angela Ang, senior
policy adviser at blockchain intelligence firm TRM Labs.

Crypto activities in Dubai are supervised by its Virtual Assets
Regulatory Authority (VARA), set up last year. The emirate has been
working to attract attract crypto and blockchain companies to set up
shop in Dubai.

Read more: Dubai Mandates Licensing for Crypto Companies as It Sets
Out Regulatory Requirements

Update (Feb. 8, 10:33 UTC): Adds comment from Angela Ang.

Correction (Feb. 8, 16:08 UTC): Removes mentions of Zcash from
headline and first paragraph. It is unclear whether Zcash is affected
because the regulator made exceptions for mitigating features, which
theoretically could include Zcash's "unshielding" option.

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[–]Iamtutut 87 points 12 hours ago

Money laundering city state bans a privacy coin, what a joke.

Won’t prevent anyone to use or trade Monero.

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[–]Ornery_Maintenance_8 41 points 11 hours ago

Breaking News: Totalitarian regime bans tool that provides financial
freedom to it's users

​

... I am so surprised xD

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[–]SirArthurPT 19 points 11 hours ago

Honestly, this is like passing a law against wind or rain...

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[–]dEBRUYNE_1Moderator 13 points 11 hours ago

The correction states:

    Correction (Feb. 8, 16:08 UTC): Removes mentions of Zcash from
headline and first paragraph. It is unclear whether Zcash is affected
because the regulator made exceptions for mitigating features, which
theoretically could include Zcash's "unshielding" option.

I don't see how that does not apply to Monero as well. Transactions
can be verified with Monero's view key and key images. Additionally,
see:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/iti467/perkins_coie_whitepaper_antimoney_laundering/

Which concluded:

    We conclude that privacy coins protect legitimate individual and
commercial privacy interests and that existing financial regulations
sufficiently address the AML issues that privacy coins present.

And:

    Not only do privacy coins provide public benefits that
substantially outweigh their risks, existing AML regulations properly
and sufficiently cover those risks, providing a proven framework for
combatting money laundering and related crimes.

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[–]tripler142 36 points 13 hours ago

How can you enforce this? Buy bitcoin on a legit platform, go to one
of the p2p "desks" on the 🧅, trade for monero. 🤷‍♂️

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[–]notsetvin 47 points 12 hours ago

Get caught and get your hand sliced off is how they will enforce this probably.

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[–]tripler142 12 points 12 hours ago

Lol, yeah they would do that....

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[–]EspHack 4 points 10 hours ago

yeah, but also, hand slicing will scare business away

survival of the fittest ensures we will end up with countries behaving
more like hotels

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[–]xmrjunkie223 2 points 9 hours ago

You say that but I see these companies building and all encompassing
approach to try and stomp this problems out. The cbdc trail in Nigeria
and the fight against btc is really a fight against btc and xmr

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[–]Elix_Exo1127 7 points 11 hours ago

Like most laws this only hinders legitimate users, further pushing the
narrative that Monero is just for criminals.

Most users can't wrap their heads around anything more complex than ;
"insert credit card here".

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[–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 8 hours ago

they can take it off the CEXs, so you can't offramp anymore and you're
locked in the tiny ecosystem of DEX and illegal vendors

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[–]tripler142 4 points 8 hours ago

You can swap bitcoin to monero via p2p. As long as it's legal to buy
bitcoin is easy to buy monero.

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[–]belsaurn 1 point 8 hours ago

You can currently do that, what happens when there is so few that are
willing to accept Monero because they have no way of off ramping it?

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[–]ScoobaMonsta 3 points 3 hours ago

Because the people who really understand Monero don’t want to cash out
of Monero! Monero is not a vehicle for fiat profits! Monero is for
using!!!

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[–]BitsAndBobs304 0 points 8 hours ago

you can't cash out, you're limited to the very small ecosystem of
illegal merchants online and DEXes

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[–]tripler142 6 points 8 hours ago

You do the reverse. P2p to bitcoin, back to legitimate exchange cash
out... not complicated

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[–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 7 hours ago

you can't, because you'll get tainted btc that won't even be accepted
on the CEX offramp or won't be able to show provenance or whatever
else issue.

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[–]tripler142 1 point 7 hours ago

They would have to ban any cash to crypto transaction that you and I
can just do together. The bitcoin is from that guy I met a year ago.
Traded cash for his crypto.There. Provenance.

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[–]BitsAndBobs304 3 points 7 hours ago

With the taxman you're guilty until proven innocent. If the cash for
coin guy gave you tainted or mixed coins they may get rejected. Also,
not many people around the world trade cash for coin, and it's risky.

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[–]tripler142 1 point 7 hours ago

Tainted coins makes no fucking sense. Then cancel crypto I'll stick
with cash. All the trained drug dealer, ponzi scheme cash is flowing
and they accept it everywhere. That's like tracking every serial
number of every bill ever minted. If they do that I'm out.

If I buy it and then sell for a profit I pay taxes. Doesn't matter
where it came from

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[–]ScoobaMonsta 1 point 3 hours ago

Open your eyes

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[–]No_Industry9653 0 points 5 hours ago

I don't think Dubai has the influence to take it off centralized
exchanges. It will take a lot to eliminate every
no-verification-required swap style exchange. Strangling Monero is
possible but there is a high bar, you're going to need comprehensive
monitoring of other chains and extensive controls over getting in or
out of the "legitimate", fully surveilled and doxxed crypto ecosystem.

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[–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 5 hours ago

they will force the exchanges to make a local version just like they
do for european countries and for usa, one without monero. monero is
not on any major usa exchange except kraken, even binance has monero
but not binance us. EU keeps piling more and more crypto regulation,
im sure theyll come for monero too eventually

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[–]No_Industry9653 0 points 4 hours ago

You can just use a VPN, forcing a local version doesn't do anything
unless the exchange requires additional verification. What might make
some difference is if they were pressured to cut off non-verifying
smaller exchanges to prevent them from using the larger exchange to
resolve liquidity issues, but that's not a showstopper either.

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[–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 4 hours ago

    You can just use a VPN, forcing a local version doesn't do
anything unless the exchange requires additional verification

they require KYC, so ofc you cant just use a vpn

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[–]No_Industry9653 0 points 4 hours ago

The largest ones do, but so what? Who uses those when they just want
to swap between Bitcoin and XMR for privacy reasons anyway? Like I was
saying, the loss condition is total surveillance and control of the
visible coins and exchanges such that you can't get in or out,
anything short of that doesn't cut it.

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[–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points 4 hours ago

what kind of minor CEXs allow you to cash out btc for usd/eur into
your bank without kyc?

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[–]No_Industry9653 1 point 4 hours ago

None, but the big ones don't prohibit depositing coins that came from
other exchanges. They would need to do this for effectively shutting
down Monero use.

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[–]beaubeautastic 1 point 7 hours ago

gotta be careful though. that btc got your name on it, ln might be fine though

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[–]psiconautasmart 1 point 7 hours ago

Others work better than BTC for that.

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[–]tripler142 0 points 7 hours ago

Sure just an example, and most underground trading desks only use
those 2 coins. Which I why I mention that in case people r into that
sort of thing. I'm not. Informational purposes only

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[–]FilmGunShops 8 points 11 hours ago

Does this include gold and silver also known as privacy coins?

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[–]ArticMineXMR Core Team 7 points 8 hours ago*

Dubai also severely restricts, if not an outright bans VPNs.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-law-for-a-VPN-in-Dubai

So this is not that surprising. This is a country that does not have
the independent judiciary or constitutional protections commonly taken
for granted in the west.

Edit 1: For the example legal arguments around preventing false
accusations of criminal activity by blockchain surveillance companies,
as a use case for Monero, which could be used in the EU, US etc.,
would likely not be possible in the UAE.

Edit 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates

Edit 3: Here is the official link to the actual regulations:
https://www.vara.ae/media/Virtual%20Assets%20and%20Related%20Activities%20Regulations%202023.pdf
The key point is the definition of:

    Anonymity-Enhanced Cryptocurrencies

    means a type of Virtual Asset which prevents the tracing of
transactions or record of ownership through distributed public ledgers
and for which the VASP has no mitigating technologies or mechanisms to
allow traceability or identification of ownership.

There is a very strong case that a view key plus key images or even a
cryptographic proof that a transaction was sent indicating who sent a
transaction would meet the requirement above.

Edit 4: The legal system in the UAE is based upon Shar’i Law. Here is
some information on false accusations Shar’i Law:
https://www.dawateislami.net/magazine/en/evils-of-society/false-accusation
It comes down to making the case that blockchain surveillance (BS) is

    Haraam-e-Qat’ee

because of the high probability of false positives. So while the
western approach may not work in the UAE there are alternatives.

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[–]GoXMR 17 points 13 hours ago

Nobody changed the world by not going against the status quo.

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[–]lDanceLikeThis 4 points 13 hours ago

is this like a Grammy award?

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[–]VeThor_Power 4 points 6 hours ago

what baffles me is that we are in 2023 and still there is not a
reliable DeX to trade Monero. It is ridiculous that this is not a
priority for the community.

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[–]Aotrx 3 points 5 hours ago

UAE is modern day slave owning state

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[–]_The-Resistance 10 points 12 hours ago

I think they are referring to Monero on exchanges or KYC Monero, this
will not affect individual wallets, cause enforcing this on non
custodial wallets is impossible

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[–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 11 points 11 hours ago

There is no KYC Monero, stop with that bullshit term.

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[–]_The-Resistance 3 points 11 hours ago

If you buy on an exchange they will know you have it, not how you use
it or where you use it, but they will have your identity linked to a
Monero withdraw, and is worst if you don't withdraw and pay directly
from your exchange account, that is why Local Monero exist

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[–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 11 points 11 hours ago

Right, so you've KYC'd yourself. The coin itself isn't KYC'd.

If I send you 1 XMR right now, can you tell whether it's a "KYC
Monero" or a regular Monero?

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[–]_The-Resistance 2 points 11 hours ago

That is right, what I am trying to say is that if you use an exchange
you are fucked up

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[–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 1 point 8 hours ago

so a KYC monerozanto (monero user)

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[–]LinuxHeki 3 points 13 hours ago

WTF

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[–]shortwavesurfer2009 2 points 6 hours ago

Better tell localmonero and DEXes they cant do business their... Oh wait...

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[–]Solid-Win6743 1 point 10 hours ago

Uhhh, so scared, it is written on paper that it's forbiden, so now I
can't use it. uhhhhh /s

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[–]Ur_mothers_keeper 1 point 8 hours ago

Is monero explicitly mentioned in this law? Because does have
"mechanisms to allow traceability and identification of ownership."
You can share individual transactionkey images with authorities, as
well as view keys. It's just, the government needs due process or
whatever it's process is (a car battery and jumper cables attached to
the nuts in some countries) to compel the owner to divulge the
necessary information. Maybe a citizen of UAE or a resident can clear
that up for us?

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[–]HoboHaxor 1 point 7 hours ago

Didn't happen (mainly going by the droves people here that say you
_can't_ ban Monero, thus it never happened.)

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[–]beaubeautastic 1 point 7 hours ago

    "Any obfuscation of fund flows poses a challenge to detecting
illicit activities, so it is unsurprising that regulators react
strongly to these kinds of asset classes and mechanisms,” said Angela
Ang, senior policy adviser at blockchain intelligence firm TRM Labs.

damn right and we aint gonna stop

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[–]Few-Calligrapher3617 1 point 4 hours ago

Hell naw we gotta find a way to sneak in such technology without
alerting Dubai they need monero

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[–]PhillyFan1977 1 point 3 hours ago

Keep buying and using it.

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[–]ScoobaMonsta 1 point 3 hours ago

The article on Japan is from 2018. It doesn’t ban Monero. It just
forces the exchanges to delist privacy coins. It’s not illegal to own
or to use Monero.

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[–]Vikebeer 1 point 43 minutes ago

Alphabet shills are pushing it a place to move to as well.

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[–]dEBRUYNE_1Moderator 80 points 2 years ago*

In sum:

    We conclude that privacy coins protect legitimate individual and
commercial privacy interests and that existing financial regulations
sufficiently address the AML issues that privacy coins present.

And:

    Not only do privacy coins provide public benefits that
substantially outweigh their risks, existing AML regulations properly
and sufficiently cover those risks, providing a proven framework for
combatting money laundering and related crimes.

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[–]CaptainPatent 34 points 2 years ago

Glad the attorneys at Perkins Coie have their heads on straight.

Hopefully regulators agree.

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[–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 22 points 2 years ago*

Lawyers think whatever you pay them to think.

I wouldn't take what they've written as a personally held opinion.
Otherwise they would've written it without being commissioned by Tari
Labs & Co (and it would've taken them less time, but, you know... they
charge by the hour).

Does anyone really think Perkins Coie would refuse to argue FOR the
government (or any other institution) and AGAINST privacy-preserving
cryptocurrencies, if they had approached them first? Because they
believe in the technology? Please.

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[–]CaptainPatent 14 points 2 years ago

    Lawyers think whatever you pay them to think.

"No we don't"

-The attorneys of Perkins Coie.

This message has been paid for by a grant from the reddit antagonists fund

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[–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 4 points 2 years ago

🤣 Exactly.

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[–]SamsungGalaxyPlayerXMR Contributor[S] 23 points 2 years ago

They still stand by their word. Perkins Coie is a well-known,
prestigious law firm with their reputation on the line. They said
everything in this whitepaper, not anyone else.

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[–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 9 points 2 years ago

Not arguing that. I'm saying that I can't judge their moral character
by their professional output.

    Does anyone really think Perkins Coie would refuse to argue FOR
the government (or any other institution) and AGAINST
privacy-preserving cryptocurrencies, if they had approached them
first? Because they believe in the technology?

What do you think about this part?

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[–]SamsungGalaxyPlayerXMR Contributor[S] 5 points 2 years ago

I simply don't understand how that question is relevant.

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[–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 12 points 2 years ago

I was replying to someone who had said that the lawyers "have their
head on straight". That implies a moral judgment.

If they had refused to argue for the other side or had done the work
pro bono, because they believe in the cause, I might be inclined to
agree.

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[–]Epidemic_Fancy 7 points 2 years ago

Thank you; (and) yes this is a moment we all need to seriously
appreciate and remember. We are here in a place of important
historical remembrance where we prove our freedom is justifiably
interwoven with truth and privacy as well as anti criminal pursuits.

Beautifully written and now “peer” reviewed.

Thank you to all who have made our wonderful and abstract journey possible.

Have a beautiful day.

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[–]PhillyFan1977 2 points 2 years ago

Exactly 100% agree. There is no need for any further regulations

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[–]jesuispero 18 points 2 years ago*

Don't lose the forest for the trees. Did anyone even read the paper?
Most of their suggestions, regarding Monero, if implemented by
exchanges and payment service providers would mean a nightmare for
everyone in this community except for those select few that are
already well connected, have fancy lawyers and "optimal" legal
structures.

We as a community shouldn't condone or incentivize this type of
discourse, even if it means financial "gains" in the short term. Most
of their suggestions if put in practice would be a direct attack on
Monero users, and yet here we are, celebrating. As /u/geonic_correctly
pointed out this paper feels like a missed opportunity more than
anything else.

We as a community need to remain vigilant and not fall for the same
traps that have plagued some other projects in this space, code can
change, communities consensus can change, be mindful of playing the
state apparatus game and hoping that somehow you'll "win" by playing
by their rules. You'll lose, badly.

Even if some people would be financially better off in the short term.
That was never Monero's goal, keep that in mind.

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[–]ErCiccioneXMR Contributor 12 points 2 years ago

    playing the state apparatus game and hoping that somehow you'll
"win" by playing by their rules. You'll lose, badly.

Get a moral gold medal. I'm happy to see there are still people in
this community who refuse this kind of regulatory bullshit. I hate to
see many acting like Monero will survive only if it will fit state
regulations. Too many seem to see Monero as simply a product that
needs to fit as many regulations as possible to become mainstream. I
don't care of Monero becoming mainstream and worth 1 bajillion a coin.

People who actually need Monero will never go through KYC or other
regulatory bullshit. They will use an half-broken smartphone found in
the streets of a city in Rwanda to send money to the rebels who are
trying to overthrow the dictatorship.

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[–]tempMonero123 5 points 2 years ago

Monero can still be used outside of regulatory requirements, just like
physical cash can. If Monero was made only to fit in such requirements
(become neutered to the point it's basically Bitcoin), then I would
have a problem with it.

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[–]Alex058 3 points 2 years ago*

How did this whitepaper change the community from cypherpunk to
regulatory bootlickers? The tech hasnt changed, the people neither:
chill man!

EDIT: ErCiccione pointed out to me he didnt write anything like this,
I must have read it elsewhere. Anyhow, my apologies to him

EDIT2: I see I mixed up two replies, but that doesnt change the fact I
was wrong 😅

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[–]ErCiccioneXMR Contributor 3 points 2 years ago

    How did this whitepaper change the community from cypherpunk to
regulatory bootlickers?

I never said any of that. You should probably reread my comments.

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[–]Alex058 4 points 2 years ago

Hi, I would have sworn I had read that exact words in one of your
replies. But cant find it now, so I must have been mistaking, hence my
well meant apalogies! I will edit my reply immediately

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[–]jesuispero 4 points 2 years ago

Also it's worth keeping in mind that loose community agreements shift,
new people join the community, etc
BTC community was mostly cypherpunk at some point, it's far from it
these days, sometimes those things change fast.

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[–]Alex058 3 points 2 years ago

Agreed. Good thing is, if this community would change for the bad, a
new one would arise

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[–]rbrunner7XMR Contributor 3 points 2 years ago

    They will use an half-broken smartphone found in the streets of a
city in Rwanda to send money to the rebels who are trying to overthrow
the dictatorship.

Woah, you lean pretty far out of the window here :)

But yeah, has something.

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[–]ErCiccioneXMR Contributor 6 points 2 years ago

I could have made a softer example about rural asian communities
receiving fundings for their farm in XMR directly to their phone from
a random guy in australia, but the rwanda rebels thing was a more
powerful example :P

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[–]jesuispero 1 point 2 years ago

    I'm happy to see there are still people in this community who
refuse this kind of regulatory bullshit. I hate to see many acting
like Monero will survive only if it will fit state regulations. Too
many seem to see Monero as simply a product that needs to fit as many
regulations as possible to become mainstream. I don't care of Monero
becoming mainstream and worth 1 bajillion a coin.

I think we can close this thread now :)

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[–]MoneroArbo 4 points 2 years ago

Do you have any specific concerns?

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[–]jesuispero 10 points 2 years ago*

"To target and lessen the anonymity-related risks of privacy coins,
appropriate enhanced due diligence would likely include measures to
prove a customer’s source of funds, place of residence, and
profession. Other measures may include a requirement that customers
describe in detail their purpose for transacting privacy coins (e.g.,
the holder is a cryptocurrency trader or operates a business in which
cryptocurrency is accepted as payment), along with anticipated privacy
coin transaction volumes and anticipated privacy coin transaction
counterparties."

"Although it would be a blunter instrument for risk mitigation than
per-customer analysis, a VASP could reasonably and effectively lessen
the overall AML risk of a privacy coin offering by categorically
prohibiting customers who are in higher risk categories or geographies
from accessing the privacy coin offering"

" a VASP could require supplemental information from a customer before
processing a privacy coin transaction (e.g., details regarding the
purpose of a transaction, the name and address of the recipient, and
contact information for the recipient)."

"Users can reveal an XMR transaction’s details that are specific to
their account via key-based functionality that is built into the
Monero protocol. Specific view keys can be shared with any third party
to grant insight into the account associated with the view keys. This
enables users and VASPs to disclose certain transaction details
associated with a given account to a third party without publicly
disclosing that user’s transactional information. In addition, VASPs
can require up-front disclosures as part of their registration process
and on an ongoing basis to meet their obligations."

Imagine if all (or a combination of the above) becomes the standard of
the industry, is this (as a community) what we are really
rooting/lobbying for?

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[–]tododiamesmacoisa 4 points 2 years ago

    Imagine if all (or a combination of the above) becomes the
standard of the industry, is this (as a community) what we are really
rooting/lobbying for?

Eh, maybe. I mean, even if that becomes the industry standard... This
community would develop alternatives, as some of them already exist.

The goal of the paper was to prove that Monero can be completely
aligned with KYC/AML practices and there's no need to ban it, which
would be a lot, really a lot worse than just forcing KYC in the
standard exchanges.

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[–]jesuispero 2 points 2 years ago

"Standard" exchanges that want to list Monero already do without
(almost) none of the above measures. Coinbase doesn't list Monero
because they don't want to, period.

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[–]tododiamesmacoisa 6 points 2 years ago

Cool. So I don't get your point.

This whole whitepaper is literally just ammunition for when people or
other entities come around spewing bullshit that they need to ban
monero or something like that because it's impossible to apply the
existing regulations to it.

I prefer to have this ammunition than to not have it.

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[–]jesuispero 2 points 2 years ago

That the suggestions they make, if they were to become standard across
the industry, would be a disaster for monero users.

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[–]Alex058 2 points 2 years ago

I disagree. This is allready standard practice with normal banks/fiat,
as it is with buying crypto from VASPS’s with a bit higher volumes.
I’d rather have XMR then USD, being sure there’s no unlimited printing
AND I can buy stuff without companies knowing what and where I buy my
groceries

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[–]jesuispero 3 points 2 years ago

Great that normal banks/fiat is the standard we hold ourselves up to these days.
Regarding the rest, if your grocery store were to be using a payment
processor they would potentially fall under some of this regulations,
were they to follow some of this recommendations it's not necessarily
true that "companies wouldn't know where you buy your groceries".
Also, this paper clearly incentivizes entities to discriminate against
"privacy coin" (blergh!) users to a degree of scrutiny that "other
coin" users are not subject. That in of itself is concerning, it could
also be used by current market participants (that deal with monero
with no issues) to change their compliance policies to incorporate
some of these suggestions. All in all, it's nothing to write home
about, let alone celebrate.

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[–]tempMonero123 1 point 2 years ago

Yes, those are concerns, and I'd rather not have those requirements.
However it doesn't stop Monero from being a useful tool. This would
prevent people from not 'being their own bank'. People can still use
Monero to transact and secure their wealth and pay for things without
going through a bank or other financial institution.

I don't like discrimination, and this could prevent someone like a cam
performer from getting a crypto bank account (even though their
services are legal, places like PayPal already refuse to have them as
customers). This hypothetical cam performer may not be able to get a
traditional mortgage, but they could still rent-to-own. I'm sure other
products/services would pop up in the future that would allow for
people to more safely 'be their own bank'.

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[–]jesuispero 8 points 2 years ago*

On another note, another high-level concern I have is that we as a
community will change our culture and start focusing on these
"compliance questions" too much, foregoing possible protocol
improvements/research because that would potentially mean "delisting".
Being not compliant with policies as draconian as the FAFT or AMLD5,
would in other periods in this community, not that long ago, been seen
as a badge of honor.

Or that we'll become gradually more like the Bitcoin community, more
and more focused on "number go up", "institutional investors" and
similar crap like that.

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[–]ErCiccioneXMR Contributor 6 points 2 years ago

This is probably my biggest fear. Luckily that's not the case yet, but
i cannot hide that seeing so many in the community being so focused
about compliance (not talking about the average guy who only wants to
see numbers going up, talking about actual contributors) worries me.
Luckily i don't see key developers like moneromooo becoming regulatory
bootlickers, so as long as things stay as they are, we are good. On a
personal note, i wouldn't really want to be part of a project focused
on pleasing institutions and regulations. That's not the reason i'm
here.

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[–]geonic_Monero Outreach Producer 31 points 2 years ago

While I applaud the effort, it's disappointing that they decided to
amplify the "privacy coin" meme. "Privacy-preserving" or
"privacy-enabling cryptocurrencies" should've been used throughout. I
would've also liked to see a section on "privacy-eroding
cryptocurrencies", starting with Bitcoin, and how that affects the
individual user.

This was an opportunity to change the narrative around this technology
and to underline how Bitcoin's radical transparency is the niche, not
Monero's privacy-preserving technology. To explain to regulators and
others that Bitcoin is unlike *any product* currently available in the
financial world. Does any bank offer a transparent account that anyone
can peer into? Why not?

The paper also misses some of the more important benefits of fungible
money. Guilt by association is a thing with Bitcoin. You need to not
only be sure of the person you receive your Bitcoin from, but also be
careful who you spend it with, since that person might commit a crime
and you are the source of his funds. Bitcoin erodes freedoms on so
many levels it is preposterous.

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[+][deleted] 2 years ago* (1 child)

[–]pcre 5 points 2 years ago

Can I violate the money laundering law as a private person? Suppose I
sell Monero on localmonero.co for cash. I cannot check whether the
money comes from illegal transactions. I have to assume the innocence
of the other person. The money laundering law turns this around. You
have to prove your innocence.

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[–]HoboHaxor 9 points 2 years ago

Does it really matter? Cryptologists, mathematicians, scholars,
security experts, all have testified before congress/senate stating
the backdooring crypto just won't work. Yet the keep writing new bills
and will until the anti encryption passes.

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[–]Kukri4321 8 points 2 years ago

Woo! Been waiting for this!

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[–]Tallest-man 10 points 2 years ago

At long last!! Thanks Perkins!

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[–]johnfoss68 7 points 2 years ago

Great work, and well done to all those involved in making it happen.

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[–][deleted] 7 points 2 years ago

Thank you team Tari

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[–]endogenicXMR Contributor 5 points 2 years ago

Great effort on this.

I did notice the following references to auditing Monero exist in the paper...

    Specific view keys can be shared with any third party to grant
insight into the account associated with the view keys.

...

    The confidential transactions feature is a cryptographic tool that
allows for verification that no additional XMR has been created or
destroyed as part of a given transaction, without revealing the exact
transaction amount. 42

...

    Unlike the Bitcoin protocol, Monero users have two sets of private
keys and public keys (four keys total). The pair of public keys make
up the wallet address of a Monero user, whereas the two private keys
(the view key and spend key) allow an individual to determine whether
an output is addressed to them (view key) and enables the individual
to send XMR and determine whether it has been spent (spend key).43 To
verify transfers of XMR, a third-party observer must know that the XMR
is owned by the individual using it. To enable this verification, the
individual using the XMR signs the previously received XMR with the
one-time address used, thereby proving that the individual knows the
private keys and therefore rightfully controls the XMR that the
individual is using. The private view key may be given to others to
grant transparency into certain details of particular transactions
associated with the address or addresses. Monero also contains an
optional text field called “tx_extra” that can store arbitrary data in
encrypted format. While this text field can be used for a variety of
compliance purposes, this use has not been widely recommended by
researchers and developers.44

… which are great!

But I personally would like to have seen a small section to show (via
the Monero command-line system or a symbolic representation) some
techniques, specific tools, and processes of exactly how legally
liable entities or operators can, in PC's confidence, sufficiently
comply, maybe with some basic examples for different entity types.

How awesome that PC did this!

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[–]fluffyponyzaXMR Core Team 9 points 2 years ago

    How awesome that PC did this!

Just want to point out that they didn't do this of their own volition.
Tari Labs commissioned it, and paid for it (with the help of some
others).

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[–]endogenicXMR Contributor 3 points 2 years ago

Yes, I remember working on an original high level technical
description of how Monero works during the MRL workshop which MyMonero
and Tari sponsored and Naveen and I put on. We called it a one-sheet
and it was requested for this 'regulatory writeup' work. Its on the
MRL workshop minutes from back then, sarang, surae and I wrote it in
Nashville, but was years before we saw what we became of it so I'm
glad to see the post..

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[–]unjack 4 points 2 years ago

I still don't see how it helps.

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[–]Febos 20 points 2 years ago*

    It will help random new guy that heard of Monero and then heard
FUD how not complaint Monero is with regulations and how will be
delisted from all exchanges.

    It will help small exchanges or small merchants or any service
that plan to use or use Monero and was uncertain because of the FUD.
Now will normally continue doing what they were doing or start doing
it with Monero. And they will point to the paper when people will ask
about it.

    It will help you and me to explain to people, that FUD how Monero
dont have future and how only surveillance coins will exist, is false.

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[–]aaj094 8 points 2 years ago

Well, for a while it has been a view that exchanges are hesitant to
list monero because of regulatory concerns. This paper seems to allay
fears that privacy coins are inherently incompatible with current
regulatory regimes.

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[–]TrasherDK 3 points 2 years ago

Wrong reply.

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[+][deleted] 2 years ago* (3 children)

[+][deleted] 2 years ago (1 child)

[–]TrasherDK 2 points 2 years ago

Cool. Been waiting for this one forever.

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