[ot][personal] cult reading notes

[Undiscussed Groomed for Male Slavery, One Victim of Many]

- then, when with cultist, refine all the models via specific questions
[note: i imagine this could be somewhat revealing of the effort if the
cultist is prepared]
- imagine the self as the person being counseled. immerse oneself in
their reality, while talking with them
- switch back and forth in one's head: try to predict their responses
before they make them. keep refining this, until the cult personality
model is accurate
- once one can really become the specific cultist, then one can figure
out how to help them regain control over their life.
[it's nice how the validity of producing deep understanding of
somebody here has inherent value around influencing them.]
[this model would work via automated influence too. the validity
stands somewhat, where people who care a lot could produce better
automated models if free and invested to do so, but quite not as much
since automation unless deprogrammers share their work more
effectively and get comparable or better trained professionals to do
it: which can happen given funding and knowledge exposure.][just
guesses of course. i'd love to make a hobby model to try to deprogram
myself a little.. this is the description prior to and of "become"ing
the cultist
from key 3 near the start of chapter 10.]
{{i have semi-mysterious belief in a cult-like influence that is
prepared for automatic deprogramming, that stays and regains control.
possibly relates to technology compromise and systemic corruption. my
investment is a need to defend honest, all-inclusive altruism and
natural living. i have no beef with capitalism if it separates from
mind control and harm.}}{{guesses again.}}
- the person's real identity is the one that shows the way: what keys
to use, where to find them, and the order to use them in.

example 1: divine light mission
- deprogrammer noticed brochures, asked cultist how long they were involved
- asked how old he was when he got involved, as if an innocent old friend
- exchanged names. cultist got a little bewildered.
- starting with saying their name, asked what they were doing at that
time in life, saying curious why people do things
- asked if there was anything else, left space for cultist to talk
more about old personality
- cultist found happy memory, shifted some
- asked for favorite around historic interest to open personality
more. kept asking for more details that cultist responded well to.
[i have extensive patterning around "what's your favorite"]
- shared personal similarities around past passions, to build connection
- the cultist shared they liked the "independent spirit" of their old
dog. deprogrammer then asked about this in general (maybe this is
goal-oriented communication): admiration of people who stand up and do
what is right
- the goal around the probe was to empower the cultist, reminding him
of qualities from his past
- cultist got subtly self-defensive (against the cult) when reminded
of this past passion
- deprogrammer then asked what got cultist involved in cult. cultist
got sad, deprogrammer made voice upbeat and asked for explanation.
- cultist entered via introduction from their romantic partner
- deprogrammer asked the year of recruitment
- asked first opinion of cult leader. cultist responded with
indoctrination, with touch of sarcasm.
[imagining sarcasm indicating nonconsensual influence: learning to lie]
- asked if cultist was at a big meeting. shows that deprogrammer
learned of big meerting.
- asked what happened to romantic partner. cultist and partner had
been separated when entered cult. 4 years old.
[i recall i was exposed to multiple people who seemed to say they were
separated from their romantic partners and didn't know how to see them
again. some of these people were trying to engage me in romance,
against my preference.]
- the last contact with ex-partner was information that they had left the group
[the person who left on their own was female. this is mentioned
because many people would consider sexual and/or physical abuse, which
can stimulate people leaving religious groups they believe in, which
is just an emotionally intense possibility.]
- deprogrammer asked cultist why ex-partner said they left. cultist
encountered amnesia around a valued connection, in context of
expressing value of independence.
- deprogrammer asked for confirmation that cultist never asked
ex-partner why they left. may have given cultist a look of knowing
what was going on.
- then gave direct eye contact and a longer influencing dialogue,
about different behavior a normal person would have. did not mention
normality. effectively pointed out obviousness that the two valued
each other, at same time as what a normal behavior would be acting on
that.
- paused for gary to process, then suggested contacting the person
- cultist acknowledge receipt of the value of contacting them, and
expressed understanding that they realised they could do this.
- it was a brief random interaction, and farewells were said when time
ran out, only a few minutes!

- during few minutes: established rapport, collected valuable
information about the cultist, and used this information to plant a
seed of possibly moving a little away from the cult.
[note: seems it would be helpful to gain contact information and
follow up with people in some way, maybe ideally connect them with
each other a little.]
- required curious, interested tone, rather than threatening or condescending
- quickly determined gary wasn't enthusiastic, related to how long involved
[it seems here like the author makes a stronger differentation between
in-cult and out-of-cult identities than some might make. it's notable
the author has been exposed to cults of a wide variety of
intensities.]
{{it's a little confusing considering how to briefly engage somebody
with the goal of influencing them. my experience is that part of me
learned to fight this: and brief things without continued followup and
communication about what was going on would then expose my real
identity to the part of me suppressing it, giving that part more skill
and knowledge to do so.}} <==== {{{{i also experienced practicing
doing this}}}}
- other than above concern of mine, accessing real identity considered valued
- reality testing strategy: "if you had known [during recruitment]
what you know now, would you have made the same decision?" this
cultist's answer appeared likely to have been "no"
- author said was stunned that recruiter had left group
[wondering if revealing this indicates cultist was considering it
themselves already]

second example: author's experience leaving a cult
- over entire cult involvement, moments when the cult was doubted or
questioned or the framework thought outside of, ended up being
significant during deprogramming
- a fundraising target had asked about the fundraising
- non-cultist noticed cultist was overheated in sun, offered a cold
drink inside coffee shop
- cultist engaged conflict between real religious teachings used by
the cult, and teachings of the cult, and was brought into a shop to
have water
maybe cultist was influenced due to real overheating.
- non-cultist used logical reason to accept water: can fundraise
stronger when hydrated
- cultist experienced strong physical relief in the air-conditioned
shop. they were likely clearly and visibly experiencing heat
exhaustion.
- non-cultist asked cultist about self in open-ended manner. cultist
responded about pre-cult self.
- non-cultist expressed having same religion as pre-cult cultist, connecting.
- cultist happened to also be recruiter, and chose to spend more time
with non-cultist due to recruitment opportunity
- non-cultist got cultist to do most of the talking
{{i'm possibly guessing arpspoof severely struggles to read the cult
book, and wants help, given the placement of their replies in my
threads.}}
- the conversation stimulating very strong longing for the life prior
to the cult
- the non-cultist stayed with the cultist until the cultist called
home in his presence
- cultist complied so that cult would look good, bad to not have
members contact home
- cultist experienced emotion of non-cultist being like a loved grandfather
- non-cultist put dime in phone himself
i have trouble guiding my body around conflicted behaviors. so doing
things can move them forward.
- experience stimulated intense confusion in cultist. did not
fundraise for rest of day. engaged counseling with cult superior.
- cultist worked on further days to intentionally dissociate from the
experience using cult techniques, to improve cult behaviors, and
forgot it until their deprogramming

third example: full-scale intervention, hare krishna

[there's a missing period at the end of a paragraph in this section,
somehow seems jarring]

regarding the hare krishnas, i worry again there could be conflation
between the destructiveness of a cult and the differences of a foreign
culture. our mainstream culture denies karma and the "non-physical" (i
see these as words for real patterns of influence, and a differing
definition of identity), which is quite serious in other cultures.
-> the book instructs us to note what we agree or disagree with. it is
quite common for those exposed to cult-like groups to have severely
different beliefs. i wrote this line to cope with an internal
experience planning to separate me from the book author.

i'm thinking of distant influence, which i was heavily exposed to, and
noting it happening to the book author in the reduction of the
presence of the Moonies in the media. this could be an effort to
discourage the author, as they use their experience with the Moonies
to teach and explain.

- cultist was recruited after tragedy of brother's death in a car
accident. was contemplating suicide.
- cultist occasionally visited family, and deprogrammer was introduced
as family counselor. played this role, spending time with cultist.
- cultist had adopted new name. deprogrammer used old, book says this is best.
humans need to be involved in the choice of what name to use with
them. how would you like it if i called you by somebody else's name,
or a name associated with stimulating danger?
seems kind of important. people on the run would be more likely to get
involved in cults.
i see how it reconnects with the past identity.
it seems like giving an excuse could briefly work there.
- asked about relation with siblings, feelings when visiting home
- expanded conversation around feelings of discomfort at the
difference between home and cult
- focused on positive feelings
- stimulated suspicion, asking about brother's death. coudl explain
given was a therapist.
- cultist demonstrated using cult techniques to block painful thoughts
of brother, handling accessing concept. more of what i described as
'intentional dissociation'.

here i lost some notes when my system mysteriously powercycled. i am
having a feeling of amnesia. i am going back to this point and
re-engaging. i've connected a backup power source to this device. (i
use DC power so it just connects in parallel).

- deprogrammer gave cultist space. cultist spoke honestly a smidge.
asked about when brother was alive, what enjoyed. cultist lit up.
last read, i got the impression that the cultist was very discouraged,
still, from brother's death. didn't feel anthing was possible other
than cult. may have helped open up more about it: still might love to
discover an option.
- found parts of dead brother's personality that could help. brother
liked investigative journalism.
- asked cultist about past life, interests. had cultist imagine a life
that had gone better, how it would go, visualise it in detail. cultist
enjoyed.
- asked cultist what dead brother would think if saw in cult.
stimulated intense sobs. gave space.
- deprogrammer got pushy: asked what would say to dead brother to explain.
disrespectful approach of using emotional opening to ifnluence without
respecting and supporting emotional healing. easy to make mistake,
have made myself, not a deprogrammer myself though.
- let cultist think more of the question, despite rejection
still seems the wrong choice to me, regarding the subtle respect thing.
- asked to think of parents views, when brother died. imagined what it
was like for each parent.
- then moved imagination to what parents would think of other son's changes.
again, goal-oriented communication leaves out the recipient.
- cultist confirmed parents would dislike strongly
- gave time for cultist to consider this
- then, asked about recruitment. emotions building the initial connection.
common situation of feeling completely lost and connecting with any
supports available; often ones that have other motives.
- recruiter had solutions to death that came from cult religion
(karma, non-material reality).
seems like normal religious sharing about the meaning of death, the
amount that is shared.
- deprogrammer pointed out recruiter gave explanation that reduced
fear and confusion. cultist also pointed out reduced guilt.
- deprogrammer realised needed to provide alternate explanation for
how to process the death
in other sessions, he has let the cultist retain beliefs, too, but
separate them from cult; i imagine both work
- deprogrammer showed that accepting guilt for death was not logically
consistent, by considering other examples. showed guilt over death was
not realistic. asked around other possibilities that could have
explained death. did not phase cultist.
- asked what brother would have thought if roles reversed, author says
that idea opened cultist up
- cultist seemed maybe to pick up that deprogrammer was anti-cult, and
asked them about cult
- deprogrammer was hesiitent to reply to cult question
- explained their own cult experience, maybe focusing on similarity
and normativity. kept answering questions. described portions that
involved severe suffering.
deprogrammer associated believing in a spirit world with being in a
destructive cult. maybe the family paying was atheist.
- deprogrammer explained actual beliefs of their cult. cultist was
shocked around beliefs.
- explained basic cult techniques shared by both cults, to sustain
beliefs and behaviors, by sharing general things that happened in
their cult.
author cites their own experiences more densely than other things. i
wonder if they were over exposed to skepticism around them, maybe to
influence them in ways like this.
[later i see them citing other cults here. they are likely making
citations so as to help demonstrate reality to people exposed to
indoctrination.]
- deprogrammer asked cultist to imagine what it was like in
deprogrammer's cult. despite shock, cultist finds it easy.
- cultist asked how deprogrammer got out. very curious how
deprogrammer decided to leave.
this also gives them more information on what they are going through
right now, with the deprogrammer.
- deprogrammer explained their own deprogramming, including exposure
to former members and how the real religion compared to the in-cult
religion
- moved conversation toward expression of factually-stated negative
opinions around destructive cult behaviors and experiences within
cults, both in general and personal
doing this successfully implies deprogrammer was attending well to
cultist's responses and where they were at
- deprogrammer shared how during counseling, they remembered moments
they had questioned the cult, and how thought-stopping had prevented
accessing these
oh these things are nice, and surprising/scary. sometimes i notice the
contradictions. very hard to remember. like, why is arpspoof using
other people's names now? and where are these other people? and why
don't i look at the email headers or network traffic to see what is
happening in more detail, or act on these things in some other way?
reading many of these deprogrammings (i lost my place here and had to
refind it), i see how there is a blurring between what the cultist
believes and wants, and what they say and do: the author describes
this is a past and current identity, and explains that part of a
cultist always wants to leave; but it seems to me like a lot is left
out: that the cultist may not feel free to communicate, even after the
deprogramming. may not be sure what is safe to say. i think it hides
whether there is punitive coercion vs positive support in many of the
cultic areas. and i think it would leave cultists with confused
memories where they don't have full skills to express parts of things
important to them. i think some of these things strongly.
holding two disparate beliefs in very intense, dissociated ways can be
very difficult, but it leaves one with important visceral experiences
that are both guiding the cult and you -- and living with these
experiences, they become how you think and store your memories and
ideas and daydreams. the context in which everything happens:  in
which you plan your thoughts and actions, and in which you
communicate. retaining this real personal experience seems important
for learning about cults, and giving people strong healing, to me.
just ideas. on this list i've had an overdone habit of post with a
personality of challenging information as if i had authority on it, so
stuff like the above obviously happens. but also writing disparate
opinions helps me retain my own thoughts when exposed to those of
other people.
- deprogrammer shared how they realised they were seriously unhappy in cult
- extensive further conversation
- cultist wanted to think to themselves
i associated this with pushiness of deprogrammer. i imagine change can
take pushing (at least nowadays).
- deprogrammer then engaged in family counseling. phil agreed to learn
more and stay for days, talking to former members. many people
visited. resolving conflict in family helped cultist leave.
- cultist shifted life to engage the one they came up with and
expressed as a wonderful dream during the deprogramming.
which is really wonderful and touching, and may make it somewhat clear
the deprogrammer wants to support the cultist and may show validity of
trust to the cultist, despite any strong influence
- built rapport with cultist, used goal-oriented communication, and
developed models of identity. deliberately tried to get cultist to
look at situation from different perspective. then intentionally
applied "keys" to remaining "locks" of the mind control, and received
positive response.
- author says keys can often reach into deepest levels of a person,
beneath mind control virus, into hardware of real self
- author describes intense sobbing as key. says changes keys unlock
can be profound.
note from farther ahead: author says cultist could be punishing self
for sin of being involved in group. shows some inclusion of
possibility that cultist learned not to talk.
- also, author says dead brother did not like organised religion.
explains casting spirit as negative.
- also, dead brother was a twin. explains intensity.

4. Connect them to their real identity
- remembering identity prior to cult re-anchors to that experience
- provides for an environment where the decisions of recruitment can
be analysed without the recruiter influencing them
- almost always uncovers unaddressed doubts or questions
- precult personality reveals what person needs to see, hear, feel, to walk away
- this may be background of cult leader, contradictions in doctrine,
misinterpretion of religious texts. leader's expressions may reveal
contradictions in background.
- "How will you know when it's time for you to leave the group?" --
look for bottom-line criterion that would cause this
ha. tell us how. then we do it. not intuitive. can be a huge change. i
probably was exposed to this happening not for my benefit.
- if individual was not well right before joining group, a positive
reference point must be found for having made the alternate choice,
such as a real experience, or an imagined one. "what would it have
been like if things went great?"

5. Stimulate many different perspectives
just thinking of this phrase, it sounds _so_ helpful. it is so easy to
just have the same thing over and over and over. figuring out how to
consider multiple things is a strategy i have to try to struggle to
heal my cognition a little. it's very hard.
- by perspectives, the views of human beings on cult-related things
appears to be meant here
- dramatic shift in example 3 cultist, when dead brother's perspective
imagined. then raised parents' perspectives
- also quite valuable to return to the experience of recruitment.
shows the cultist's other viewpoints that happened around it, as well.
- "each time a cult member takes a different perspective, the cult's
hold on them is weakened"
- imagining future, both in cult and outside
- asking how devoted cultist would behave if they were leader. often
the cultist would be altruistic, but the leader is opulent. it soudns
like this is an indication of a destructive cult.
i'm thinking here of how there's some reveal that deprogrammers may be
struggling
it must be a little obvious, after being in a cult, that one could
start one's own cult to focus on producing real good in the world
such things must exist, no? i wonder what good examples would be.
but it doesn't sound like they have succeeded quite yet in stopping
destructive cults.
it seems valuable to ask people why this hasn't happened, or for parts
of why that they might have ease around sharing. crowds of people
driven by passion, familiar with living with none, and familiar with
working to build very powerful organisations?
- the alternate perspective of imagining being in another cult
severely alters the experience of being in the current cult

6. Sidestep thought-stopping by indirectly giving info
- cultists learn to reject negative thoughts regarding the group or its leader
- this relies on the cultist judging or realising that something is negative
- hence, this can be simply sidestepped by avoiding attacking the
group or its leader
- for example, talk about a different cult than theirs
it is crazy to imagine something doing this. my experience is that
people practically specifically try to engage the things one avoids,
over and over and over again. of course it is half perception.
i think we learn to talk that way, too.
it can really seem to build a need to lie, to figure out how to communicate.
i also learn to talk in ways that others respond to by stimulating these.
- build frames of reference that provide tools for thinking about what
happened to them
- note: in the third example, the deprogrammer _never_ attacked the
cultist's cult.

7. Help visualize a happy future outside
- author says phobia indoctrination (terror influence, or here more
terror messaging influence) is unconscious. cultist imagines being
happy in cult.
- visualise really enjoyable picture of future, then step in and enjoy
it. in a way the cultist likes.
- opens door out; begins dismantling indoctrination
- "if you had never met the group, and you were doing exactly what you
wanted to be doing, what would you be doing?" usually have to repeat
it several times "really, just imagine ... n"
- develop emotional involvement in the fantasy
- neutralises negative fears about doing things outside the cult.
cultist can realise there is life outside cult that doesn't produce
the cult's disaster story.
- can open many possibilities, connecting with loved ones, etc.
reconnects some to reality
- can open being in cult as a decision the cultist could make or not make

8. describe mind control and cults
- cultists need specific information about cults and mind control, to
comprehend it
- can take rapport and/or other things
- in third example, deprogrammer did this via explaining their own experience
- chinese communists in the 1950s engaged in the process of
brainwashing that is repeated in cults today. there are over 3000
destructive cults, that all share similar authoritarian structures.
leaders lie to their cultists, teaching things that are contradictary.
- intertwined stimulating questions with descriptions
- experience of being in a cult, and of leaving one. descriptions of
doctrine show the similar extremeness of cults.
- author spends time redescribing their own experience with certain
focuses. shows this is valuable.

hard to do this today.