[ot][personal] cult reading notes
Undiscussed Groomed for Male Slavery, One Victim of Many
gmkarl+brainwashingandfuckingupthehackerslaves at gmail.com
Sat Oct 1 17:05:28 PDT 2022
noting that in nancy's letter, she specifically mentioned throwing
away a garment that her friends and family knew she loved. she also
specifically mentioned a very unpopular belief about the role of
women, to people who knew she was a feminist.
comes across as a potential serious call for help from a dangerous situation.
then the way the friend succeeded in acting on it, was to find people
very close to her (her family) who would also respond to the points in
the letter, and simply share
the letter with them: convincing by evidence, not by alarming
expression. this was done covertly with regard to both nancy and the
people she was involved with, and of course involved a physical
letter, not e.g. email.
:/ important stuff.
- in the successful case, the family refrained from confronting the recruitee
- in this example, the family's minister was the one to research and reach out
i got confused after this section
- the recuitee was again separated from the group for 3 days straight.
their consent was asked for this first.
- rarely, the minister had recently attended a workshop on cults
- "playboy" magazine being absent treated as a sign of something being
wrong, despite it being commonly considered a morally reprehensible
my opinion/experience is that situations liek that are very common,
where there are things such as common moral judgement that can be used
to easily deny important evidence
- in successful case, the family had an existing habit of talking
among each other weekly. this instinct was stronger because the family
member was going through a time of stress.
- recruitee started off selling magazine subscriptions as a normal job
- unwise to rationally discuss controversial cult with recruitee
without guidance from cult experts
i would switch the order of topics in this chapter (change
success->failure to failure->success) for the reader's sense of how
things go after reading both. however, i am noting the initial success
story helped me keep reading when it was difficult to do so.
- in the second story, the family did not at first consider the
increase of apparent responsibility and morality as a bad thing, until
they noticed failing grades
in second story, recruitee introduced family to cult members on their own
thinking a little again on how, with a prevalent mainstream, it could
be a little hard to discern what is a destructive cult and what is
simply something different. one further idea is that most things we
find our own represent our own plans in some way.
- second story recruitee was previously a straight-A student, but then
struggled to reach a B for multiple semesters
when you use more of your mind you notice mind control more, question
things more. dunno if it's related. i certainly cognitively struggle.
big attribute in the failure story of defensiveness stimulated near
conflict with father's discovery and opinion
the mother trusted her smart son to leave the cult environment, as a
coping strategy. the missing information is maybe how a pervasive
information environment that develops [shared?] understanding of the
cognitive timing of its members can prevent that intelligence from
reading the second story, one can possibly see how it would come
across that some demon had possessed the recruitee's family. they
mysteriously and persistently developed information and focus
specifically countering the teachings of the cult. they were of course
simply trying to produce unbiasedness.
- the father of the second recruitee, who was involved in stimulating
the disconnection and accidentally strengthening the cult involvement,
was a state politician
- the family of the situation that went worse covered the situation up
so that others had alternative explanations
my understanding is that has happened around me. strong emotional reasons.
- "they were very afraid of what everyone would think if they told
them the truth"
unsure whether that's relevant for me
- book describes the choice of not immediately confronting the
recruitee as a strategically advantageous position; impulsive
reactions often harmful
- sudden, uncharacteristic changes should be investigated quickly and
thoroughly. ask questions in connecting ways. avoid wishful thinking
(and also impulsive reactions). consult with friends and relatives;
don't keep it hidden.
- if you keep the problem hidden, you cut yourself off from a
potentially huge well of practical help and emotional support. the
consequences of not reaching out can be disastrous.
i thnk it's important to consider deep respect here. it is incredibly
safety inducing to spy on our loved ones and share gossip regarding
them _if and only if_ we continue to hold them with incredibly deep
respect and care, empowering their own preferences. otherwise it's
creepy and can also destroy somebody's life. more first world problems
my family has a habit of reaching out to and communicating with people
in my community without my knowledge. gives one a desire to figure out
how to have one's own interactions with others on one's own footing. a
little late given my poor psychological state, but also important for
safety in general.
it's unique to be so frightened of somebody being stalked by loved
ones who might disagree with them, and also to be so frightened of
somebody being coerced to not share that they are in serious danger. i
do believe that deep respect is possible. i imagine it requires a
degree of transparency and trust with the person in question.
- it's not safe to assume somebody would snap out of mind control themselves
this can apply to the self too
- if somebody may have become involved in a cult, contact their family
and ask that they not talk to the person about it yet
this is what the book says. it says talking can jeopardize the
relationship with the recruitee.
- if the situaition is handled mindfully and tactfully, the family and
the recruitee will ultimately be grateful
"tell me about this freakin deprogramming cause i was mind controlled
not to think it man. gimme all that you've got."
- there are attorneys who litigate against cults
copying things over and seeing the concept of everyone making a
natural effort to get closer to the person. alongside the concept of
the family talking with others, the idea of community efforts seems
quite valuable. involve more people, keep it positive and cohesive.
another snippet: "help me understand, because i'm confused". when
relating with somebody in
disagreement, this kind of expression is so important. it can help
change the relation from defensiveness and aggression to one where
another snippet: many people make good points but don't follow up on
them. book does not mention that this could be stimulated by cognitive
dissonance sourced from the cult trying to retain their recruitee.
- excessive guilt and shame from family members. not to blame. cults
just scoop people up.
- supporters neglect their own needs. not taking rest etc can harm
both you and the recruitee. take care of the self before others.
- lack of perspective. keep goals realistic.
- emotional overreaction. genrally and dangerously drives people
deeper into cults to get aggressivee.
- condescending, confrontational direct argumentation. rational
arguments don't deflect indoctrinations; and then condescension or
arrogance would strengthen them.
- blaming the recruitee. instead, regard as undue influence. get angry
at _cult_, not _victim_. remember they are already surviving being
psychologically violated by the cult itself.
- if litigating, help victim firstmost, then seek counsel with a
lawyer with experience with the cult
- "Do everything within your power to create the necessary conditions
to help the cult member _change_ and _grow_." keep in mind as constant
goal. _not_ rescuing them: people leave as a natural consequence of
changing and growing.
- assume the person will leave the cult. figure out how to make that
soon and easy.
- most important part is preparation.
- take care of yourself. if you break, the work does.
- "identify and address everyone's concerns and emotional needs"
- keep a balanced perspective; life must go on.
- involve as many people as comfortable with, and educate them; invite
them to workshops; contact knowledgesble experfienced people, anybody
who can offer assistance.
- ideas: clergy, mental health professionals, former members, families
with similar experiences
- people tend to be quite helpful and generous when helping members exit cults
- involve people who are very close to the recruitee. if necessary,
give them a mini-intervention first.
- use wisely the consolidated resources. coordination, teamwork, and
- study the group. learn how they think and operate.
- the more clearly you understand mind control and the group, the more
clearly you will be able to explain it to others.
- keep organized files. make copies of important information to share
with everyone concerned.
- make copies of every letter written to the recruitee and every
letter received from them, as they can become important
- send regular updates to everyone involved, and ensure everyone is on
the same page
- engage the cult member in consistent ways, e.g. a small card every
- offer to always be availalble to the cult member. be an alternative
to their phone if they don't have one.[? not quite sure what is meant
by this sentence. i think they mean offer your phone to use via
- seek cousnel with a good cult counselor. watch out for con artists
who are actually cultists. look into their background. trust your
instincts, and find somebody the recruitee would trust.
- good counselors may be people who were once cult members themselves,
and have a lot of experience doing what they do.
- don't assume any good psychotherapist will be helpful. most have no
exposure to this.
- counselor: $500-$2500/day assisting former member: $100-$300/da.
expenses extra. usually <=3 days. total cost usu. $5k-$30k [usd 2018].
later follow-up typically required.
- advance planning usu. takes weeks to months long.
- "the only way to get people permanently out of dstructive cults is
to help them get back in touch with their real selves" book says this
is more important than keeping them physically away from the cult.
1. building rapport and trust
2. gathering information
3. planting seeds of doubt about the cult and promoting a new perspective
- building rapport and trust: don't reveal knowing they are in a cult
unless they share this. don't reveal studying countercult information
or contacting experts. this can breakdown trust. maintain _curious_
yet concerned posture. ask questions in non-judgement way. learn what
is important to them. show approval and respect for _their_ ideals,
talents, and interests. let them know you are withholding judgement on
the group until you learn; but can let them know you have bad feeling
you're not sure about. remind them credit for their successes goes
with them more than the cult.
- think of ways to build better relationship if not great yet.
connections outside the cult help the person immensely. everyone
should make natuyral effort to get closer, but coordinate things to
- do not send resources as these may be given over to the group. send
personally-valued things that will build self and rapport.
- further advice in book section: "Build Rapport and Trust"
- collect valuable information: this happens once rapport is built.
learn about inside of cult, and person's life. talk in person if
possible, and as regularly as possible. connect one-on-one; it is very
hard to make progress with more than one cult member present.
- at some point, likely invited to talk with older members or leaders.
do not do this, but don't reject it flat out. express trust for the
individual specifically. i think the book considers associating the
recruitee not knowing something with raising doubt around the group or
joining it, as well suggesting that they research the information
associated with its importance.
- gathering information gives you and others much more to work on.
intuition can be much more powerful.
- _once the first two steps are accomplished_, develop skills to
promote new perspective: connect around past shared experiences, but
not suspiciously much
freaky experience of information shared with one person coming out via
suggestions of someone who seems unrelated
- one or two points at a time. one thorough point better than many.
- more in book section "Develop Specific Skills to Promote a New Perspective"
focus i think is on stimulating doubt and/or building non-cult
behaviors and connections
section seems to confuse me
- immediately seek out professional assistance, and immediately start
planning how to help
- often recruitees ask to suddenly visit for a long time, partly as a
plea for help. plan for how to help them when or if this happens.
this is also simply for safety. the recruiters don't let you think for
yourself. my experience is a small indication in the reply can be
overblown and taken as a yes or no when it just a hesitation, as well.
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