TOR internal logs

[grarpamp]

This is an IRC log from #tor-internal - our water cooler irc channel. It was
made on November 10th, 2014.  I have created this log because it is absolutely
essential that everyone on tor-internal@ see the internal live chat related to
the recent tor-internal@ mailing thread.

Please be considerate with this log file - it is probably not a good idea to
leak it to anyone but transparency for this is absolutely essential. We're
headed for some soul searching as a result of the recent messaging thread and
this is probably going to be an involved process.

Here is the log file:

19:29 < sekritarma> i am going to invite david chasteen in here
shortly. he's going to send mail to the tor-internal list explaining
lots of things. then everybody here can discuss with him if they want.
19:36 < puffin_> we have a Kickstarter account
19:37 -!- puffin_ is now known as puffin
20:18 < mrphs> speaking of which, how do we get an offical Google and
Dropbox account?
20:19 < mrphs> we need thse accounts for gettor
20:19 < sekritarma> what needs to be official about it? the name? an
email address it's associated with?
20:20 < mrphs> maybe the email. I could make one, using my @tpo email.
but we should enable 2factor.
20:21 < mrphs> I could also get a burner and do that
20:21 < mrphs> but thought I'd ask first
20:22 < mrphs> people wouldn;t get to see the actual account, but it's
important to keep them safe.
20:22 < mrphs> we're shipping binaries after all
20:24 < gamambel> i created a gettormail at gmail once
20:25 < gamambel> to use gmail SMTP to be able to send larger mails to
gmail recipients
20:25 -!- DaveC1 [~ubuntu at ec2-54-164-45-151.compute-1.amazonaws.com]
has joined #tor-internal
20:25 < DaveC1> Hola.
20:25 < puffin> mrphs: I can sign up for a burner phone if you would like
20:25 < qbi> hiho DaveC1
20:28 < mrphs> puffin: that'd be helpful
20:46 < mrphs> "I was never involved in or aware of
20:46 < mrphs> operations against US persons"
20:46 < mrphs> what about non-us persons in this community?
20:46 < mrphs> DaveC1: ^
20:47 < DaveC1> mrphs: "I was never involved in or aware of operations
against NGOs and/or journalists or activists, American or otherwise.
20:48 < DaveC1> Tor is an NGO as is every organization I think you'd
include in "this community." So no.
20:49 < DaveC1> Not to my knowledge.
20:59 -!- Yawning [~yawning at 0001bef1.user.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal
21:02 < puffin> mrphs: Is an old Nokia OK, or do you have a burner
phone already?
21:04 < mrphs> puffin: I dont have one. but wait, things are getting a
bit weird these days. I need to rethink my opsec.
21:04 < mrphs> pls keep this on hold
21:04 < puffin> ok
21:06 < mrphs> we're going to ship binaries, and we like it or not,
most people dont check sigs. I want to make sure we can keep these
accounts as secure as possible.
21:10 -!- ln5 [~linus at 00017a4c.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout:
480 seconds]
21:11 -!- StrangeCharm [~StrangeCh at 000170a3.user.oftc.net] has quit
[Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:12 < gamambel> DaveC1: i read your statements as honest, and it is
a very brave move. thank you for that. incredible. i do however share
the scepticism in regard to whether this can end well for tor (and
you)
21:12 < gamambel> good luck
21:14 < DaveC1> gamambel: Thanks. I appreciate it. You and me both. I
really wish it hadn't worked out this way with the HS thing. Timing is
terrible.
21:14 < gamambel> i hear you do an excellent job, and based on that i
can understand the hope and belief that you will help make tor better.
i share that hope. i just don't see how this can possibly work. but
you are the person who has thought about this the most.
21:16 < gamambel> this is the first time i feel the immediate need to
share and discuss it, but i don't have any tor people around me and i
don't want to take -internal stuff out in the open. this time, it is
really hard not to just share this with the people in my room... ugh
21:16 < DaveC1> Yeah. I mean, we want to be as transparent as possible
as soon as possible. I think Boingboing is a great way to break it
since they get Tor and I trust them.
21:17 < gamambel> i hope this embargo can be lifted rather sooner than
later, but it will turn into hell
21:17 < helix> I think it was incredibly selfish of you to join tor
knowing this would utterly fuck us PR-wise
21:17 < gamambel> i understand the time constraints, but to keep this
'secret' for that long is quite a burden for all of us
21:17 < helix> it's nice you want to do nice things, but the amount of
trust you're going to destroy is unbelievable
21:17 < helix> if you care about tor you should have stayed away
21:17 < gamambel> especially those that have the freedom to live transparently
21:18 < athena> seconded: are you *out of your fucking mind*? have you
seen the months-long harassment campaign from pando, including an
*actual fucking rapist* ?
21:18 < gamambel> i've never had to keep a secret in my life, and i
really didn't want to start that now :(
21:20 < puffin> In terms of skills we need, someone who can teach us
some things about physical security would be nice if one of the pando
people decides to show up
21:22 < Yawning> puffin: errr, I'm not seeing that
21:22 < Yawning> have them removed from the event, it's private proerty
21:23 < Yawning> is there more to it than that?  (am I being naive here?)
21:23 -!- StrangeCharm [~StrangeCh at 000170a3.user.oftc.net] has joined
#tor-internal
21:25 < mrphs> honestly I feel betrayed for reading that 3 letter word.
21:25 < mrphs> I cant even stop thinking about all the terrible things.
21:26 < puffin> would you rather have the government exclusively
staffed by people who don't care about human rights?
21:26 < puffin> who is supposed to watch the watchers and raise objections?
21:27 < mrphs> I would rather have my family (and myself) alive, at
first place, tbh.
21:27 < Runa> DaveC1: hm, I read your "I will go public with this
regardless"-statement as you not taking tor's interests into account.
I got the impression from your first email you wanted to coordinate
with Tor and publish when everyone's on the same page, not the other
way around.
21:27 < DaveC1> (Was writing emails, back)
21:29 < DaveC1> Runa: I totally want to coordinate with Tor and
publish when everyone's on the same page. But the option is being
floated to tell me to go away and sever conection as much as possible.
21:29 < DaveC1> Which would mean not coordinating a public statement.
21:29  * helix hugs mrphs
21:29 < Runa> DaveC1: I think you need to be a bit patient and let the
news sink in with everyone.
21:30 < Runa> DaveC1: if you move forward without being on the same
page as the rest of the organization, you will only make things even
worse.
21:30 < DaveC1> And, of course, I'm going to be accused of having been
(the worst ever?) illegal penetration of a US NGO. I plan on still
having a career, so I'm going to have to defend myself. I'd rather do
it WITH Tor. :-(
21:30 < DaveC1> Runa: I totally agree.
21:30 < DaveC1> 100%
21:30 < DaveC1> And I'm not going anywhere unless I'm told to.
21:30 < DaveC1> But that option was floated this morning.
21:30 < DaveC1> I don't think it's a good one.
21:30 < helix> I think it's the best one
21:31 < DaveC1> helix: Understood.
21:31 < Runa> DaveC1: I'm curious, how do you picture an ex-CIA within
the Tor Project as being good for Tor's public image?
21:32 < DaveC1> Runa: Well, so there are multiple audiences that Tor
needs to talk to.
21:32 < DaveC1> You guys are most familiar with the activists who run
the nodes and use the software and... activate.
21:32 < DaveC1> I'm most familiar with the bureaucrats who debate
whether or not to keep paying the bills at Tor.
21:33 < DaveC1> And I"m most familiar with their decisionmaking
process as to whether they should keep doing that. Ignorant people are
all "oh, but then we won't be able to still do the job of securing the
country."
21:33 < DaveC1> I'm in an unusally authoritative position to say, "um,
bullshit."
21:33 < Runa> I'm concerned we are going to lose a lot of public support
21:36 < Yawning> Without a well qualified PM/somone that can talk to
funders or people from the Man that can make our lives increasingly
difficult, is there going to be something for the public to support?
21:37 < Runa> Yawning: yes, I think so, Tor can do a lot better with
fundraising and getting help from the community than what it has
attempted to do so far.
21:38 < helix> god, is project management really so important that
we're willing to ruin our reputation?
21:38 < Runa> what helix said
21:38 < helix> can't believe the responses I am seeing
21:38 < puffin> we are skating on *very* thin ice with current funders
21:38 < puffin> who talk to the foundation people - it's a small world
21:39 < DaveC1> helix: I definitely don't want to ruin Tor's
reputation. But what looks worse: we hired this guy who defected from
the intelligence community to support net freedom, let's see how he
is, or "Tor was secretly penetrated by the CIA and then tried to hide
it."
21:39 < puffin> we have needed a PM for years
21:39 < helix> how bout "we accidentally hired an ex-CIA guy and fired
him as soon as we found out"
21:39 < helix> that would have been the ideal story
21:40 < puffin> I have to go - there are some fundraising threads out there
21:40 < Yawning> puffin: gl
21:41 < Yawning> DaveC1: just to clarify something, will you have
anything that resembles git push access to code?
21:43 < Runa> Yawning: an upside of open source, I guess?
21:44 < DaveC1> Yawning: Not a coder.
21:44 < DaveC1> Just a PM, so no need.
21:44 < Yawning> DaveC1: right, that's what I thought
21:46 < DaveC1> helix: That can still be the story. But there's also,
and I don't want to be a dick about this, but some of the anti-vet
comments I've heard and anti-vet hiring policies that people have been
advocating make it sound like "we accidentally hired a vet and fired
him as soon as we found out" and that doesn't feel very good. Or very
legal.
21:47 < Runa> not to be a dick, but "we hired someone who we realized
would not be a good fit for this community"
21:47 < helix> well put, Runa
21:49 < DaveC1> Runa: That's a completely legitimate reason and I'll
defer to it. But I would submit that you can't decide whether I'm a
good fit for this community based on my resume any more than you can
based on my skin color or race or gender.
21:49 < helix> uh
21:50 < Runa> I disagree completely.
21:50 < helix> I would equally feel super comfortable stating
ex-mossad is not a good fit for this community
21:50 < helix> that doesn't make me an anti-semite
21:50 < helix> so please stop implying these kinds of things
21:51 < ioerror> hi
21:51 < ioerror> I just saw this email
21:51 < DaveC1> Not saying these things are equitable. But the
mechanism is the same. The reason racism blocks understanding is the
idea that you can take an entire group of "those people" and
understand them as objects rather than persons.
21:52 -!- Julius23 [~Julius_M at 1QLAAB34O.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has
joined #tor-internal
21:53 < helix> yes, it is very unkind of me to other spies
21:53 < DaveC1> What would have happened if Wikileaks said "we can't
trust Snowden! He's NSA!" Would that have been good for net freedom?
21:53 < helix> we know what snowden did
21:53 < DaveC1> I'm glad they didn't do t hat.
21:53 < DaveC1> Valid.
21:54 < DaveC1> I'd like it to be possible for intelligence community
people to come help net freedmo with having to permanently move to
Moscow.
21:54 < DaveC1> I'm gonig to ask for permission to say more about what I did.
21:54 < Runa> there are a lot of ways to help net freedom, joining tor
may not necessarily be the best idea though
21:54 < DaveC1> I'll be as broad as I can be in the Boingboing article
and we'll see what they let me do.
21:55 < Runa> I'd like to echo isis' concern that there's a press
strategy on your end in place while we're just hearing all of this.
21:55 < DaveC1> Runa: True. But this is what was available to me.
21:55 < DaveC1> Runa: The press strategy was formed with Karen and
Roger as I was talking to them about this.
21:55 < DaveC1> I would have put out this email on day one, but wanted
to get Roger's coord.
21:56 < ioerror> this is a prank,right?
21:56 < Runa> in the past, these things have been coordinated with the
core community
21:56 < ioerror> weren't you working at the start department according to karen/
21:56 < Runa> draft posts have been flaoted by -internal
21:56 < helix> he lied
21:56 < Runa> ioerror: yep, now we know that was a cover
21:57 < ioerror> wow, karen's vetting is pretty solid here
21:57 < Yawning> ...
21:57 < ioerror> ...
21:57 < Yawning> "has to lie or he ends up in jail"
21:57 < ioerror> so, did you bring any docs DaveC1?
21:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: I didn't have access to anything
whistleblower-worthy. Thankfully. I think Ed was brave as fuck.
21:58 < DaveC1> I don't know that I would have been able to blow up my
life like that. I wasn't in that position.
21:58 < ioerror> Didn't you fight in the iraq war?
21:58 < DaveC1> I did.
21:58 < ioerror> that entire war was a war crime according to
international law - so any photos or evidence would count
21:58 < DaveC1>
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/11/Floridian/War_stories__from_tho.shtml
21:58 < ioerror> i know some people in europe that would be happy to
help you prosecute rumsfeld and others
21:58 < ioerror> especially bush
21:59 < ioerror> i'm not quite done with the email here but at halfway
through, I'm pretty much glad my spook radar is spot on
21:59 < DaveC1> ioerror: If you really think that would be a useful
strategy, then by all  means, let's chat.
21:59 < helix> ioerror: word
21:59  * mrphs is trying not to have a heart attack
21:59  * Runa waits for ioerror's email
22:00 < mrphs> I'm even afraid to ask questions
22:01 < isis> mrphs: if you have questions, it'll more than likely
help all of us if you ask them
22:01 < isis> mrphs: you could have perspective or concerns that the
rest of us are lacking
22:02 < ioerror> DaveC1: how do we know that you actually quit the CIA?
22:03 < ioerror> i mean, given that you used department of state as a
cover, how do we know that you're not doing the same with Tor and
actually working for the CIA?
22:03 < DaveC1> ioerror: Good question.
22:03 < ioerror> Other than, I suppose, the obvious of having said
that you wor kfor the CIA, which makes me wonder if you really work
for DIA or another angency
22:03 < DaveC1> ioerror: I THINK they'll actually confirm it now.
22:04 < ioerror> yes, well, I expect the CIA to tell us you've left,
if you ahve or if you haven't - whatever serves them best
22:04 < mrphs> working on internet freedom, might send you to prison
in iran, for a long time. being affiliated with cia, gets you and your
family tortured and murdered before getting a chance to answer any
questions.
22:04 < mrphs> I'm sure DaveC1 knows all about that.
22:04 < DaveC1> ioerror: Publication Review Board will review the
Boingboing article I'm writing with Xeni.
22:04 < Runa> you should write it with tor instead
22:04 < ioerror> DaveC1: the CIA lies to the american public
22:04 < Runa> that's how we do things.
22:04 < DaveC1> ioerror: They wouldn't allow me to lie about my CIA affiliation.
22:04 < helix> can't believe xeni knew before the tor developers
22:04 < Runa> yeah, wth.
22:04 < ioerror> if the cia puts people under cover, they do
everything to keep it
22:04 < DaveC1> Runa: Sorry about that. :-(
22:05 < ioerror> i know, I have most of the cia manuals to train under
cover travel: rule number one - never blow your cover story
22:05 < helix> boklm: right on (re mail)
22:05 < ioerror> so, the cia won't blow it
22:05 < DaveC1> Runa: the email was with Roger, but Xeni eni was there
and I saw andopportunity. I trust her not to release it  before we're
ready.
22:05 < ioerror> so, there is a horrible irony here
22:05 < ioerror> i know xeni well
22:05 < Runa> DaveC1: will -internal be ablet o review before it goes public?
22:05 < ioerror> i trust she will do right by this
22:05 < DaveC1> ioerror: Using Tor as a cover like this would be super illigeal.
22:06 < DaveC1> House and Senate oversight would lose their shit.
22:06 < DaveC1> THis is high profile. That would be really really stupid.
22:06 < DaveC1> Runa: Yes.
22:06 < DaveC1> Runa: That's my plan.
22:07 < Runa> I'm not sure you are aware of how we usually do blog
posts and such, but it's pretty much always a coordinated effort than
-internal gets to review before it goes public.
22:07 < ioerror> You mean like, XKEYSCORE, the drone proggram that
kills american kids in yemen, the iraq war, FAIRVIEW (NSA domestic
spying with AT&T as a partner) or any other secret US spy program?
22:07 < ioerror> I mean, I can't really take this seriously, I feel
like I am being trolled
22:08 < ioerror> What did you do in the CIA?
22:08 < DaveC1> Runa: I haven't shown anything to anyone. I'm just
coordinating the idea with Xeni. Haven't shared any content yet. I'll
coord with -internal before I do.
22:08 < ioerror> Where were you deployed?
22:08 < ioerror> What clearances did you hold?
22:08 < ioerror> Have you ever killed someone?
22:08 < mrphs> ^^^^
22:09 < isis> umm
22:09 < ioerror> Have you ever participated in torture or drone programs?
22:09 < ioerror> (this question list is awful)
22:09 < DaveC1> ioerror: 1. Can't say yet, but I'll try to get
permission for more detail.
22:09 < ioerror> (not answering is also awful)
22:09 < ioerror> Did you ever work doing infiltration of groups?
22:09 < DaveC1> 2. Can't say. :-(
22:09 -!- aagbsn [~aagbsn at 000184b5.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote
host closed the connection]
22:09 < ioerror> Did you work in counter intel?
22:09 < DaveC1> 4. TS/SCI
22:09 -!- aagbsn [~aagbsn at 000184b5.user.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal
22:10 < DaveC1> 5. THat is an incredibly rude question to ask a vet,
but no. Not directly.
22:10 < DaveC1> 6. I never participated in torture. That's illegal and
I would have told the entire fucknig universe if anyone ever asked me
to.
22:11 < Runa> what does 'not directly' mean?
22:11 < DaveC1> Runa: I was a soldier. In the invasion of Iraq.
22:11 < Runa> mhm
22:11  * mrphs thinks about killing with drones
22:12 < isis> Runa: i.e. have you ever indirectly killed someone via
flushing shit down the toilet in the US with potable water? we all do
things to kill indirectly, it would be exceptionally difficult to make
any accurate guarantee to the converse.
22:12 < ioerror> isis: yeah, that is bullshit
22:13 < isis> gandi fucking killed a million people indirectly
22:13 < ioerror> isis: when you are part of an imperialist illegal war
and you're in the invasion force as a warrior, you do not get to claim
it is like flushing shit down the toilet
22:13 < ioerror> isis: irrelevant speculation
22:14 < ioerror> isis: in any case, i'm happy to see that my friends
in iraq are an abstract concept to you
22:14 < isis> the deaths in iraq are by no means abstract
22:14 < isis> the concept of "indirectly killing" is
22:14 < Yawning> I don't think I can sit in this conversation and remain civil.
22:14 < DaveC1> ioerror: I was opposed to the war in Iraq.
22:15 -!- Yawning [~yawning at 0001bef1.user.oftc.net] has left
#tor-internal [Leaving]
22:15 < DaveC1> ioerror: I came back and tried to stop it.
22:15 < DaveC1> ioerror: I did everything I could.
22:15 < ioerror> I shut down the city of san francisco to stop the war
22:15 < DaveC1> ioerror: It is the greatest shame of my life that I
participated.
22:15 < ioerror> I think that we should not discuss this in detail
22:15 < DaveC1> ioerror: Did it? Stop the war?
22:16 < ioerror> later with wikileaks, i did help end the iraq war
22:16 < ioerror> and so, yes, we did as much as anyone has done so
22:16 < DaveC1> I  started an organization to help tell people the
truth about the war.
22:16 < ioerror> we ended the protection for contractors and soldiers
to be immune from prosecution
22:16 < DaveC1>
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/11/Floridian/War_stories__from_tho.shtml
22:17 < sekritarma> in other news (and why i didn't wade into the
email thread immediately), my little birdy tells me silk road 2 was
indeed opsec failure, and the surrounding busts were because the silk
road 2 guy named a whole lot of names when they started pressing on
him.
22:17 < DaveC1> And the, when I realized that incompetence and
politicization at the CIA led to that war, I went there and tried to
keep it from happening again. :-(
22:18 < Julius23> sekritarma: oh, thats good news!
22:18 < sekritarma> my little birdy didn't know anything about the
relay seizures.
22:18 < DaveC1> ioerror: We all did what we could. Some of us have
different opportunities.
22:18 < DaveC1> https://www.facebook.com/david.chasteen1/posts/10152701425166737
22:19 < isis> ioerror: please, we're all shocked and wondering what is
the best way to move forward, please try - as much as you're angry -
not to wantonly attack DaveC1, but try to remain civil. causing a
dramabomb on top of a clusterfuck is probably not going to help.
22:19 < DaveC1> That's what I wrote about 9/11 this year.
22:19 < Julius23> Hi DaveC1!
22:19 < ioerror> isis: when you compare the iraq war to gandi (the
domain register??!? I suspect you meant Mohandas Gandhi), I can't even
believe you are trying to do that.
22:20 < ioerror> isis: in any case, my questions are not an attack,
they are questions directly related to my interests related to Tor
22:20 < ioerror> If we have a CIA person working at Tor, many of us
will be put in danger
22:21 < isis> my  key is fucked up
22:21 < ioerror> As it stands now, I have been accused of being CIA
and that is very dangerous
22:21 < isis> h that one
22:21 < DaveC1> ioerror: Really? Like more than already is the case?
22:21 < DaveC1> ioerror: Like, yeah. That.
22:21 < mikeperry> sekritarma: not knowing about the relay seizures is
concerning.. It sounds like we still don't have the whole
picture/story
22:21 < ioerror> Once, I was deported from Lebanon for being jewish,
which was because htey said i was a spy for israel (false)
22:21 < ioerror> If we have a CIA person working with Tor, I won't get
out of that next time, I fear
22:22 < ioerror> And I barely did get ou tof that in 2009 (as
Sebastian and others may recall)
22:22 < ioerror> I am still banned for life from Lebanon
22:22 < DaveC1> ioerror: I identify. Coming out of the closet means
that a lot of travel is for-real not safely available for me anymore.
22:22 < DaveC1> That's why people don't usually do it.
22:22 < DaveC1> It's seriously pretty dangerous.
22:22 < DaveC1> But I care enough about this to do it.
22:23 < ioerror> DaveC1: Why was your first reaction to expressing
some skepticism that bringing US intelligence agents/cleared people on
board might not be so great for Tor's image... to effectively threaten
to sue Tor for discrimination against vetrans?
22:23 < mikeperry> also, I am completely unsure what to do about the
DaveC1 thing. it seems like it will put a lot of our community at risk
and cause fallout. I was excited to have a bridge to the State dept
and gov't bureaucrats, but this seems like the cost is too great.
forgive me if I appear to otherwise ignore this, really not sure how
to handle it
22:24 < ioerror> mikeperry: did you catch that he used State as a cover?
22:24 < mikeperry> yes
22:24 < ioerror> mikeperry: ie: what do we know about bridge building there?
22:24 < mikeperry> and it also seems like we're fucked both ways
22:24 < ioerror> mikeperry: it isn't clear that this is even useful to
anyone and that this, along with many other things is about to bring
tor down
22:24 < mikeperry> the discrimination thing seems bad by itself
22:25 < mikeperry> yep
22:25 < ioerror> I can't tell if you're kidding
22:25 < ioerror> We don't hire war criminals, we don't discriminate by
not hiring them
22:25 < DaveC1> ioerror: Sorry. I've worked a lot on diversity issues
and started an organization that is focused on combatting veteran
stereotypes and discrimination, so I'm probably more sensetive to it
than most.
22:25 < ioerror> We don't put our users in Iran at risk
22:25 < ioerror> If we hire a CIA person, which we have done
apparently, we will get people murdered
22:25 < mikeperry> right. I think that argument is fair, and valid
22:26 < ioerror> this is the shit i have said for a long many of you
have denied that this was the game we were playing
22:26 < ioerror> I'm really at a loss here.
22:26 < ioerror> DaveC1: Did you do Counter intel at CIA?
22:27 < DaveC1> ioerror: I don't think I am allowed to answer
questions about what I did or didn't do at CIA. Sorry.
22:27 < gamambel> mikeperry: ioerror: looks like our servers were
returned to all three datacenters already. we're trying to get the
boxes out for analysis.
22:27 < DaveC1> I really will push for more detail in the Boingboing
article and see if it gets through the publication review.
22:27 < gamambel> it's a bit complicated since that's against company
policy (rental servers)
22:28 < mikeperry> the other thing that is conflicting to me is that I
really do believe what he says about wanting to support net freedom
and bridge that discussion with other agencies, and in effect is
putting himself in a rough position just to do this..
22:28 < Runa> DaveC1: you should push for more detail to -internal first.
22:28 < mikeperry> but the optics will be so bad it doesn't seem to be worth it
22:28 < gamambel> why don't we take the RBN money for HS?
22:28 < ioerror> mikeperry: I think that i once warned you about
becoming the monster mike
22:28 < ioerror> mikeperry: I feel like you did not even take me
seriously at the time
22:28 < DaveC1> Runa: Hmm. Actually. That's exactly what I had in
mind, re: the review process.
22:28 < ioerror> mikeperry: It is very clear that we're at that line
22:29 < sekritarma> runa: i trust that dave will work with us to
produce a boingboing article that we help with. i'm not worried there.
the question is how good that article can be for us.
22:29 < Runa> DaveC1: you seem to bring up boingboing before
-internal, that's all.
22:29 < mrphs> DaveC1: do you understand that publishing such a thing
can actually cause a lot of serious trouble? I think I made it pretty
clear that my family might get fucking murdered.
22:29 < DaveC1> Runa: So kind of wondering how that works (thinking
through the logical ramifications of the publicon review process re:
revealing things)
22:29 < mikeperry> we're in that line also in part because we need
lots of people to find Tor valuable, including the CIA
22:30 < DaveC1> Runa: Yeah, no. I wil l coord with -internal, then
Xeni, then back to -internal, then back to Xeni, the push the final
version to CIA's PRB for review.
22:30 < mikeperry> I made a very similar call when Andrew mailed
tor-internal about his creepy plane flight with CIA agents next to
him, telling him he should apply for IARPA funding/CIA funding
22:30 < DaveC1> Because they want the "right before publication" version.
22:30 < ioerror> We do not need to hire a CIA person who will do
prepub review with the CIA before blogging for CIA people to find Tor
useful.
22:30 < ioerror> mikeperry: ^
22:30 < Runa> DaveC1: also, someone asked on the list why you didn't
want until you could disclose you were with the cia before joining
tor.
22:30 < DaveC1> BUt that's kind of funny because that means revealing
stuff that might get REDACTED to your editors...
22:30 < ioerror> DaveC1: how does Tor benefit from having a
bridge-of-understanding between Tor and the CIA?
22:30 < mikeperry> I have no doubt that the CIA would find Tor useful,
and its funding would not comrpromise us, but as I said then, the
optics would be so bad that the et improvement to Tor from such
funding would not be worth the bad PR
22:31 < ioerror> mikeperry: Funding does compromise us
22:31 < ioerror> I am clear on that now.
22:31 < ioerror> Tor is compromised.
22:31 < mikeperry> and I think this is sadly a case where that is also true
22:31 < ioerror> When we are paid to work on a browser rather than
anonymity improvements of Tor HS, we are co-opted
22:31 < ioerror> It is a faustian pact
22:32 < mikeperry> our funding model is shit. that is compromising us.
we're run like a consulting company with little control or ability to
respond to changing circumstances
22:32 < ioerror> When we set the road map and found funders to fund
us, it was different
22:32 < ioerror> we haven't done that for a long time
22:32 < ioerror> The money has corrupted us
22:32 < mikeperry> it's the type of contracts we get that is causing
us most of this pain
22:32 < ioerror> And now, we're hoping for influence
22:32 < DaveC1> mrphs: I understand that. I sure as hell don't want to
put anyone at risk. But Tor telling this story is way better than if
it gets leaked, which I think it will.
22:32 < ioerror> That is my line.
22:32 < mikeperry> we have no real freedom in our direction
22:33 < mikeperry> and I think that would also be true if we got
foundation funding as pay-per-deliverable instead of just open grants
22:33 < DaveC1> ioerror: Sorry, bridge-of-understanding? I'm not sure
what you mean there. Can you unpack?
22:34 < sekritarma> ioerror: when was it that we set the roadmap and
found funders to fund it? it is a great plan, but i think we never did
that. we always went with whoever we could find to fund something we
wanted to do.
22:34 < sekritarma> ioerror: and mike is right that our current
funding model is one of our big problems
22:34 < ioerror> DaveC1: Could you tell me about your feelings related
to the collateral murder video?
22:34 < sekritarma> ioerror: and that's why i want so much to fill the
press manager, donations manager, project manager spots well
22:35 < DaveC1> Runa: re: the not waiting until I could disclose.
Didn't have the financial resources to end one career and wait (unsure
how long) to start looking for other work. I tried to be as clear as
possible with Roger what my situation was without committing a felony.
I obviously failed.
22:35 < ioerror> sekritarma: we did that long ago and yes, we have
problems with funding - let us discuss that in another thread
22:35 < ioerror> DaveC1: what do you bring to the table with eight
years at the CIA?
22:35 < ioerror> DaveC1: that is my question, what bridge of
understanding, as mikeperry puts it, do you bring?
22:35 < ioerror> DaveC1: if you used State as a cover, what do you
know about state?
22:37 < ioerror> Did you ever work on surveillance programs?
22:37 < ioerror> Did you ever deploy surveillance programs relating to
biometrics?
22:37 < Runa> DaveC1: sekritarma didn't communicate with the rest of
the community, but I guess he was not allowed to.
22:37 < ioerror> Did you read the snowden documents? (ie: do you read
classifed documents that are leaked to the press)
22:38 < sekritarma> runa: hm?
22:38 < DaveC1> ioerror: Re: the collateral murder, Yes. I saw the
video. As I told Nima, I was sad to say that I didn't see anything at
all surprising. I heard talk like that on a regular basis. And I saw
fire missions (air and artillery) sent based on reports that were
panicked and nonspecific and killed civilians.
22:38 < DaveC1> We killed a lot of civilians.
22:39 < DaveC1> We tried to minimize it. But that's what happens.
22:39 < DaveC1> Nima said that made him sad. It makes me sad too.
22:39 < DaveC1> I haven't forgiven myself for it. I don't plan to.
22:40 < DaveC1> ioerror: I can't talk about any programs that I worked
on. (yet? I guess? Still figuring out how that's going to work. Might
be good to get some ACLU lawyers to help me figure out how to do this
and not go to jail.)
22:40 < DaveC1> ioerror: I can't talk about cover.
22:41 < mrphs> DaveC1: (re: financial resources) dude really? Maybe
it's just me, but I'm having a hard time digest this... so you've
decided not having a pay check for a month or two is more important
than lives of people.
22:42 < mrphs> and you're also sad for taking lives of people.
22:42 < ioerror> ...
22:42 < DaveC1> mrphs: I mean, not to be the inclusion guy again, but
check your entitlement. It's a big deal to end one a career and have
no idea of how you'll pay your bills, take care of your family.
22:42 < mrphs> I think im having a panic attack
22:43 < DaveC1> And, I mean, again. I was joining an organization
started by a NSA veteran.
22:43 < DaveC1> THat's the part that's still really confusing to me.
22:43 < ioerror> DaveC1: Roger's internship at the NSA is not the same
kind of veteran who helped invade iraq
22:43 < DaveC1> How is it WORSE to have an organization started by an
NSA vet who also has a contractor who used to be CIA.
22:44 < ioerror> Also, check your entitlement? are you kdding?
22:44 < ioerror> Are you aware that for mrphs that his family will be
murdered in iran?
22:44 < ioerror> That isn't a joke
22:44 < ioerror> He has no passport
22:44 < ioerror> He has no ability to work
22:44 < Runa> what the what?
22:44 < ioerror> He is in exile
22:44 < DaveC1> ioerror: So, um, remember when I was talking about how
I heard things sometimes that kind of sounded like anti-veteran
discrimination?
22:44 < DaveC1> ioerror: That's what I'm talking about.
22:44 < ioerror> I'm against war crimes
22:44 < ioerror> That has nothing to do with being a veteran
22:44 < DaveC1> ioerror: So am I.
22:45 < ioerror> The iraq was was illegal
22:45 < ioerror> the CIA operates illegally in foreign countries
22:45 < ioerror> As it stands now, we're all about to violate the US
law about agent identities
22:45 < ioerror> (thanks a lot covert action magazine)
22:46 < ioerror> Furthermore if you're going to talk about
discrimination, I'd like to talk about responsibility.
22:46 < ioerror> To talk about these things is not discrimination.
22:46 < ioerror> to hold a view that is counter to your actions, which
you can't even tell us about anyway, is not discrimination
22:47 < ioerror> I have a lot of respect for Paul from the NRL and for
many people who fought in many wars
22:47 < ioerror> I have very different politics than most people comprehend
22:47 < ioerror> My compassion for mrphs is unending
22:48 < Lunar^> quick drop-by; it seems to be a terrible timing; got
suicidal a few days ago; mostly been avoiding computers since; and
i'll continue to do so until i feel standing on firmer grounds
22:49 < ioerror> Lunar^: <3
22:50 < ioerror> DaveC1: Please do elaborate on your feelings of being
persecuted and discriminated against as from where I stand, I
understand what the CIA does better than anyone else here, except you
22:50 < Lunar^> i wish you all strength and whatever's needed to keep
the boat afloat
22:50  * isis disappears to go hang out in magickal
crypto-implementation code-review land until the dust from the
dramabomb settles to more productive conversation
22:50 < asn> Lunar^: tor world has been quite crazy lately :) stay in
real life for now and be well :)
22:50 < ioerror> I have friends who have been tortured, one friend had
a friend who was droned to death
22:50 < Runa> Lunar^: let me know if there's anything I/we can do to help.
22:51 < ioerror> so super happy to hear how our politics migh tbe discrimination
22:51 < mikeperry> asn: if you'd like a distraction, I just replied to
Aaron on tor-dev in the HS thread
22:51  * helix hugs Lunar^
22:51  * ioerror hugs Lunar^
22:51 < isis> Lunar^: ? feel well
22:51 < sherief> Lunar^: Don't worry about any work related issues.
22:51 < mikeperry> asn: I am using that as my distraction from the
dramabomb as well, currently
22:51 < asn> mikeperry: :)
22:51 < mikeperry> we can chat in #tor-dev if you want
22:51 < ioerror> mikeperry and isis - by not participating in this,
I'd like to remind you that you're actually part of the problem with
tor's hiring process
22:51 < DaveC1> ioerror: I'm as entitled as the next guy. I'm not
going to starve if this doesn't work out. But the things you're saying
create an actively hostile work environment for veterans. Or veterans
who served in Iraq (which, given the deployment rate, is effectively
all veterans). I'm not going to not call out discrimination when I see
it.
22:52 < mikeperry> ioerror: I feel like right now you're kind of on a
witch hunt. I also don't think obsessing over this right now is
healthy. I need some space to think
22:52 < ioerror> DaveC1: The CIA creates a hostile work environment
for our users and now, apparently, Tor itself
22:52 < DaveC1> ioerror: And if the consensus is that the best thing
for Tor is for me to go, then I'm going to bow to that.
22:53 < ioerror> mikeperry: yeah, a witch hunt - i specifically asked
if dave was the guy that made the killing joke (eg: assange) and karen
said NO, he did not - she lied to us all and dave just corrected the
record (credit to dave here!)
22:53 < DaveC1> But I know the difference between consensus and one
person talking a lot.
22:53 < gamambel> Lunar^: *hugs* if you need a place to escape let me
know and i'll figure something out. you're always welcome to stay with
me and my (non-tech) girlfriend for how long you want in our guest
room
22:54 < ioerror> DaveC1: You think that mrphs is talking a lot or that
i'm the only one speaking?
22:54 < sekritarma> speaking of veterans, i'm pretty sure i'm not an
nsa vet. nobody's ever told me i was. i was a temporary three-month
employee, and got no further benefits or anything from it.
22:54 < isis> ioerror: i made my input in the politest manner i could
muster. i received feedback and other input, which i now need to
calmly think about and process before continuing the discussion.
22:54 < DaveC1> ioerror: I explained in the email that I explicitly
did NOT tell that joke. BUt told you that it bothered me that someone
ELSE did.
22:54 < isis> ioerror: also, unlike you, some of us *actually maintain
software* and enjoying clearing our minds through coding
22:54 < Lunar^> gamambel: i have people handling the situation really
well around me, that's also how i can stay offline
22:55 < DaveC1> I'm saying that a statistical distribution curve of
discussion would have a large spike at "ioerrer".
22:55 < sekritarma> lunar^: let us know if we can do anything to help!
22:55 < gamambel> ok good
22:55 < ioerror> isis: nicesnipe, call me when 30m people ues your
software for every network up
22:55 < gamambel> let me know if and when you need anything Lunar^
22:55 < sekritarma> ok everybody please stop making it all personal.
22:55 < gamambel> even if it's merely some money to get that off your mind
22:56 < ioerror> isis: in any case, my questions are valid, even if
you think that it is "drama" to ask for clarity
22:56 < ioerror> isis: and also, thanks for letting me know what you
really think, only when the cia shows up :)
22:56 -!- ln5 [~linus at 00017a4c.user.oftc.net] has joined #tor-internal
22:56 < isis> i'll be in #tor-dev until the dust settles
22:56 -!- Lunar^ [~lunar at pulpe.poivron.org] has quit [Quit: Coyote
finally caught me]
22:57 < ioerror> DaveC1: i'm bothered by a few key things here
22:57 < ioerror> DaveC1: one is that we now have a fallout that is
hugely problematic for people like mrphs (and others still)
22:57 < DaveC1> ioerror: Agreed. That bothers me too. That's a big
argument in favor of me going away.
22:57 < ioerror> DaveC1: the other is an issue of trust, which is to
say, trusting anything said
22:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: THough I don't think that that risk is
mitigated by me going away. I think me going away looks spooky, like
Tor is hiding something.
22:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: That's valid. I don't expect trust. Anytime soon.
22:58 < ioerror> DaveC1: the other other issue is this veiled threat
about discrimination, which frankly serves nothing
22:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: I'm new.
22:58 < ioerror> the other other other issue is this pre-pub review
and being cleared, being gagged and so on
22:58 < ioerror> i'm not allowed to sign google's NDA
22:58 < DaveC1> ioerror: You think calling out discrimination is a
threat? Count on more threats, then. Because I'm going to keep doing
that.
22:59 < ioerror> needless to say, the CIA has an NDA that is more serious
22:59 < DaveC1> Right. Now, of course, I'm the only person bound by said NDA.
22:59 < DaveC1> Legally, I'm pretty sure everyone here could go say
whatever they want tomorrow with no legal consequences.
22:59 < DaveC1> In US law.
22:59 < DaveC1> (other than me)
22:59 < ioerror> And the other other other other issue is of course
public perception far beyond the bodies of mrphs and his family, which
may not happen but isn't helping him right now
22:59 < DaveC1> Not a great idea for Tor.
22:59 < ioerror> In US law, we cannot disclose your name
23:00 < DaveC1> Ah. Not true.
23:00 < DaveC1> I'm not under cover.
23:00 < ioerror> the intelligence identities protection act makes it a
crime to disclose your name as a CIA agent
23:00 < DaveC1> Look at that, you just found a test for whether I'm undercover.
23:00 < ioerror> Even after you are done working for the CIA
23:00 < DaveC1> You'd be prosecuted if I was.
23:00 < DaveC1> IF I was undercover. I'm not.
23:00 < ioerror> That isn't a bet I want to take, as you can imagine.
23:00 < DaveC1> I mean, I'm pretty sure that's true. I'm not a lawyer.
23:00 < DaveC1> (AcLU probably knowsn)
23:01 < ioerror> Yes, I've asked.
23:01 < ioerror> I asked for unrelated reasons last year.
23:01 < DaveC1> I see.
23:01 < ioerror> I was followed by FBI people under cover in berlin.
23:01 < ioerror> I have their fingerprints.
23:01 < ioerror> If i disclose them and their names, I would go to jail.
23:01 < ioerror> Even if they're done now.
23:01 < ioerror> And not because of that job but because they're
special for life.
23:02 < DaveC1> Huh. That's surprising as FBI is not an intelligence
agency. Of course I defer to ACLU.
23:02 < ioerror> So, this is a very very dangerous situation for many of us.
23:02 < ioerror> the FBI is law enforcement and intelligence
23:02 < DaveC1> ioerror: Understood. I'm right there with you.
23:02 < ioerror> They often operate abroad, including in iraq, as you
probably know.
23:03 < DaveC1> Well, I'm not a lawyer. Defer to ACLU, of course.
23:03 < DaveC1> Re trusting me.
23:03 < DaveC1> I'm not asking for that.
23:03 < ioerror> Well, we are supposed to trust you.
23:03 < ioerror> I understand you represented Tor on Friday at the FPF event.
23:03 < DaveC1> Really? How?
23:03 < DaveC1> "represented" meaning I was Karen's sidekick.
23:03 < DaveC1> And she introduced me to people.
23:03 < ioerror> Thursday, CIA, Friday, Tor
23:04 < DaveC1> Correct.
23:04 < ioerror> Did Karen know you worked for the CIA before or after that?
23:04 < DaveC1> I told her and Roger on the day I was authorized to do so.
23:04 < sekritarma> (oh good, we are back to fact-finding)
23:04 < DaveC1> As soon as I saw them.
23:04 < DaveC1> (saw Karen first)
23:04 < helix> then he told xeni about it, instead of telling any of
the 5 or so tor people he saw this weekend in DC
23:04 < Runa> DaveC1: why didn't you tell me at this event?
23:05 < ioerror> So, Karen knew first
23:05 < ioerror> So again Why would Tor want to hire a CIA agent
factoring in  the considerable downside
23:05 < DaveC1> Runa: Griffin asked what was up. I told her "let me
tell Roger first?, is that OK?" I would have told you the same.
23:05 < DaveC1> ioerror: Karen knew on Friday. Long after the contract
was signed.
23:06 < helix> we all saw you after you told roger
23:06 < DaveC1> her should be him
23:06 < helix> but you told xeni instead
23:06 < Runa> I stood right next to you as you were having this
discussion with Xeni, I think?
23:06 < DaveC1> Yes. I wasn't hiding it from you.
23:06 < DaveC1> I had no intention of hiding it from anyone. I wanted
that letter to go out immediately.
23:06 < DaveC1> But there were delays. :-(
23:06 < Runa> but you didn't tell me directly either
23:07 < DaveC1> I wanted everyone to know at once, with the email.
23:07 < Runa> but you told Karen and Roger
23:07 < DaveC1> Yes. Wanted them to review the email so I could send that day.
23:07 < sekritarma> to be fair, i wasn't really in a position to drop
everything and deal with it then. but then, i hadn't expected to need
to be. and i'm a bad bottleneck for everything these days.
23:08 < Julius23> DaveC1: Just one question, why did you not quit your
job, waited until you could undisclose the old position, and then
apply for a job at tor? Esp, when knowing that is potentially a
problem?
23:09 < mrphs> and makes me wonder why the fuck karen didnt tell us
anything about it. we were right there!!!
23:09 < Runa> yep.
23:09 < helix> I think it's clear nobody really cared how we would feel about it
23:09 < Runa> word
23:09 < Runa> I'm disappointed
23:10 < helix> I'm disgusted
23:10 < ioerror> where is karen in this?
23:10 < mrphs> and I'm sorry karen, but I'd never ever trust you again.
23:10 < helix> karen knew before anyone else
23:10 < mrphs> I was trying to help you however I could. but you
betrayed my trust.
23:10 < mrphs> you betrayed me worse than my enemies and stalkers.
23:10 < Runa> both DaveC1 and puffin could have told us at the event
on friday, in person.
23:13 < DaveC1> Julius23: Already talked about that. WHat I did is the
standard procedure for folks leaving for the IT industry. You use the
resume you're allowed to use. You explain as much as you can your
situation. People from the intelligence community usually get it. I
overestimated Roger's "getting it". That's on me.
23:13 < Runa> DaveC1: how long does it take to have your resume declassified?
23:14 < mrphs> I still cant understand how you could tell xeni and not us.
23:14 < mrphs> could someone please take my name down the tpo website,
I dont want to commit to git
23:14 < DaveC1> mrphs: The email to tor-internal was with Roger for
review before I talked to Xeni.
23:14 < mrphs> I'm also revoking my keys
23:14 < DaveC1> I thought it was on its way out.
23:14 < DaveC1> Sorry. :-(
23:15 < Runa> was the deal that roger would send it?
23:15 < weasel> interesting or-internal mail.
23:15 < DaveC1> The deal was that Roger would review it and I would
send immediately.
23:15 < helix> mrphs: I'll handle it for you, but can you please send
me a signed mail
23:15 < helix> just for completeness
23:15 < DaveC1> Like Jake, I trusted Xeni to be the right person to
tell this story.
23:15 -!- LeHoax [~LeHoax at 82-170-233-160.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #tor-internal
23:15 < sekritarma> mrphs: hang on a bit please
23:15 < DaveC1> OK.
23:15 < DaveC1> Talked to Roger and Nick.
23:15 < DaveC1> It's pretty clear at this point that the consensus is
that the negatives outweigh the positives.
23:16 < DaveC1> For me coming at this point.
23:16 < DaveC1> I'm really sorry to have caused distress to Tor.
23:16 < weasel> :(
23:16 < helix> bye
23:16 < DaveC1> And to have put folks in this situation.
23:16 < DaveC1> We still need to manage the story.
23:16 < DaveC1> I'm gonig to withdraw and go do something else.
23:16 < Runa> you put tor in that situation
23:16 < helix> we, not you
23:17 < ioerror> we, indeed
23:17 < DaveC1> Runa: Sorry. I really didn't think that it would be a
big deal since Roger was NSA.
23:17 < sekritarma> well, we have a thing to manage, and dave does
too, and then some of it should be done together.
23:17 < weasel> that was quite a short stay then.
23:17 < Runa> DaveC1: for a few weeks way back when
23:17 < weasel> I'm not in a state to properly judge things, but sorry
to see you go that soon
23:17 < mrphs> sekritarma: I'm sure you understand I cant risk the
story coming out.
23:17 < ioerror> dispite this nonsense by mikeperry as being a witch
hunt, I would really like to point out that this is a failure of tor
as much as anything
23:17 < DaveC1> Runa: Yeah. Sorry.
23:17 < ioerror> also, i would really like to know the answers about
being gagged
23:17 < mrphs> sekritarma: not only my own life, but so many other
iranian activist rely on me.
23:18 < mrphs> sekritarma: I'm responsible for their lives too.
23:18 < ioerror> mrphs: what is the bst thing to do?
23:18 < DaveC1> I'm still going to work with Xeni to tell the story so
we can be transparent. I'll still run it by tor-internal.
23:18 < DaveC1> We'll do it together.
23:18 < mrphs> ioerror: I dont fucking know anymore.
23:18 < mrphs> if a tor-cia story gets out
23:18 < mrphs> im done
23:18 < mrphs> for good
23:18 < ioerror> if only we knew someone who could help us with iran, eh?
23:18 < ioerror> the f-ing irony
23:18 < sekritarma> mrphs: what would you think of a story about how a
person tried to do the right thing, but brought too much baggage from
the intelligence community, and how tor is trying to be many things
for many people but this one was too far, and we missed a great
opportunity, maybe, but this was the smarter thing to do?
23:19 < mrphs> from tor and all other activities I'm involved
23:19 < mrphs> im so fucking shaking right now
23:19 < ioerror> DaveC1: if you go to xeni and publish it, it sure
looks like you're using tor for your own benefit
23:19 < ioerror> DaveC1: do you have any thoughts abou tthat?
23:19 < sekritarma> mrphs: the other version of the story is the
simpler "person tries to become tor person, but misrepresents himself,
and tor backs out"
23:19 < weasel> sekritarma: was it?
23:19 < DaveC1> ioerror: It IS going to get leaked ,I have little doubt of that.
23:20 < mrphs> sekritarma: only if iranian intelligence community and
IRGC was sane and rational
23:20 < DaveC1> ioerror: Is there someone you trust more than Xeni to
tell the story?
23:20 < sekritarma> weasel: was it a great opportunity? i'd like to
live in a world where intel people can defect to free software
communities. but i don't think tor is strong enough right now to be
the first.
23:20 < weasel> sekritarma: was it the smarter thing to do.
23:20 < sekritarma> weasel: oh. well, read the thread i guess. please
form your own opinion.
23:20 < weasel> I just came home after a night out with friends.
23:20 < weasel> so impaired judgement and all.
23:21  * helix would love to be drunk with weasel right now
23:21 < weasel> it seemed like a great opportunity.  having a hard
time judging people's reactions.
23:21 < sekritarma> weasel: if it is a great opportunity, it will
still be a great opportunity in a month or two
23:21 < ioerror> DaveC1: yes, Julian Assange
23:21 < helix> I'd rather spend every free weekend from now until the
position is filled looking for a different PM
23:21 < ioerror> That said, there is no story
23:22 < mrphs> sekritarma: iranian intelligence community has already
started a campaign against tor, and they wouldnt hesitate personal
attacks.
23:22 < weasel> everybody should be a tor person.
23:22 < helix> please tell me with whom I should coordinate
23:22 < ioerror> We hired you under false pretenses, no?
23:22 < mrphs> sekritarma: so many others rely on me and my opsec
23:22 < mrphs> im so fucking done
23:22 < weasel> helix: just stop by.  there's beer in the fridge.
23:22 < helix> mrphs: :(
23:22 < ioerror> DaveC1: i'm happy to arrange it with julian
23:22 < ioerror> DaveC1: I have him on the phone, ironically enough
for another reason
23:23 < DaveC1> ioerror: I know Xeni. I don't know Julian.
23:23 < mrphs> everything ive worked for during the past 6 years
23:23 < helix> hi julian o/
23:23 < ioerror> DaveC1: I know them both, I can coordinate, as you
asked, who else - Julian Assange
23:23 < mrphs> would blow up with such a thing
23:23 < weasel> I'd be curious to map the anti-CIA attitude of US
citizens vs. non-US citiziens.
23:23  * mrphs goes afk
23:23 < weasel> the way it seems to me now is that the US people are
far more anti-CIA than the non-US folks.
23:24 < weasel> which seems strange.
23:24 < helix> bc people assume we are CIA more easily
23:24 < sekritarma> helix: yes. i think that right there is the crux of it.
23:24 < DaveC1> Guys. I think we're done here. I'm tapping out. I'll
coordinate the blog post with tor-internal.
23:24 < sekritarma> i'm not at all worried about the actual reality of
how it would work. i am very worried about the external image thing.
23:24 < helix> sekritarma: yeah
23:24 < DaveC1> I'll answer questions if anybody has them.
23:24 < DaveC1> Going forward.
23:25 < ioerror> DaveC1: I'm sorry but are you going to take me up on the offer?
23:25 < ioerror> I can't believe you asked and now you're not even
taking it seriously?
23:25 < weasel> .oO( "what's the single most improtant change we
should do to improve our opsec" )
23:25  * Phoul gives everyone a big hug.
23:25 < DaveC1> ioerror: I'm having trouble understanding what Julian
brings to the table?
23:25 < ioerror> (julian is actually on the phone, should I ask him?)
23:25 < ioerror> Julian is the person I trust most in the world
23:25 < ioerror> He is the most famous journalist, after glenn
23:25 < DaveC1> Would he simultaneously publish the blog post?
23:25 < DaveC1> I'm not looking for most famous.
23:26 < DaveC1> I'm not looking for fame. :-( I was looking to help Tor.
23:26 < ioerror> that's fine but hey, if we're going to publish about
the future, I want to make sure we get it out in the right channel
23:26 < ioerror> boingboing is good but wl has more reach to the
people that will be murdered as a result of this news
23:26 < DaveC1> Do you not think that Xeni is the right channel?
23:26 < ioerror> or not, if wl tells it
23:27 < ioerror> Julian says he would be happy to help
23:27 < ioerror> I didn't tell him any of the details.
23:27 < DaveC1> So, um, you think that Xeni publishing it instead of
wl will result in people being murdered? You're gonig to have to
unpack that for me a bit.
23:27 < sekritarma> i also think from our perspective it would be fine
for julian to do this, but from dave's perspective that sure would be
foolish of him, right?
23:27 < ioerror> So, if you want to publish, wikileaks is happy to
collaborate with an ex-cia person coming out to the free world, ig
uess
23:27 < mrphs> (if any of you can read farsi, or if google-translates
help any: isna.ir/fa/news/93060301910/%D9%85%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%B1%DA%AF%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B3%DB%8C
)
23:27 < weasel> hugs to all of you,
23:28 < weasel> and good night.
23:28 < DaveC1> ioerror: I'm not a leaker. That's not the only way
that IC vets can help freedom. If I use Julian, that'll be the
assumption. That's problematic.
23:28 < DaveC1> It needs to be NORMAL for IC people to come work for
net freedom and civil liberties.
23:28 < weasel> don't lynch anyone and be nice to all.
23:28  * Phoul gives weasel another hug
23:28 < Phoul> Sleep well
23:28 < asn> weasel: good night you crazy rodent
23:28 < DaveC1> Not a catastrophic event that ruins the officer's life.
23:28 < mrphs> the title says: "the footprint of intelligence
community in Tor project"
23:28 < weasel> asn: weasels are *not* rodents!!11
23:28 < weasel> eleven.
23:29 < asn> oh...
23:29 < DaveC1> Tapping out, guys. Wish you all well.
23:29 < ioerror> DaveC1: Wikileaks isn't always about leaking, as you
must be aware
23:29 < DaveC1> You'll see my blog post.
23:29 < DaveC1> Draft.
23:29 < weasel> (order carnivorra or something)
23:29 < ioerror> DaveC1: that said, I'm sorry to hear that you've
taken this path
23:29 < sekritarma> ok, dave's laptop is out of power. i'm going to
write a followup to the mailing list.
23:29 < ioerror> wait, you're with him?
23:29 < sekritarma> i think it is worthwhile to continue discussing
this in the context of a bonding experience.
23:29 < ioerror> what the fuck is going on?
23:30 < Runa> wtf
23:30 < helix> :|
23:30 < sekritarma> yes, i am sitting in ballston sq since rachel is
in town for nsf.
23:30 < Runa> ... so you could have invited people in dc to talk
23:30 < Runa> not sure it would have made a difference on my part, though
23:30 < ioerror> I'm losing my faith here.
23:30 < weasel> because people talk IRL?
23:30 < ioerror> I'm going to take the week off everyone
23:31 < ioerror> mrphs: if you need help, please tell me
23:31 < ioerror> mrphs: if you need to get your family our of iran,
please tell me
23:31 < ioerror> mrphs: i will get them out with my own money if you need it
23:34 < infinity0> DaveC1: didn't read through everything, so maybe
someone already mentioned this. but if you want to do something good
for net freedom, you can try different paths to build up trust. it
will take a lot of time to "make up" for the fact that you worked for
CIA for that long.
23:34 < infinity0> thanks for stepping down though. what will happen
with the media?
23:35 < sysrqb> Lunar: <3 *hug* please let us know ifwe can do anything for you
23:35 < Runa> infinity0: afaik he's moving forward with the boingboing piece
23:35 < infinity0> what will that boingboing piece say?
23:35 < infinity0> i have about 5 more screens to read, i can shut up for now
23:35 < sysrqb> mrphs: :( let us know if there is *anything* we can do for you
23:36 < Runa> infinity0: I'm not sure what the angle is, DaveC1 says
he will share it with tor-internal for review.
23:36 < sysrqb> mrphs: but please don't think karen betrayed you. i
(want to) believe it was a lack of understanding the circumstances,
and it wasn't intention
23:37 < sysrqb> but...WTFOMFG
23:37 < ioerror> sysrqb: i feel betrayed here - i explicitly asked if
DaveC1 was the guy who told me the assange killing thing and she said
no, absolutely not, and that he said no - but now, he has said yes -
so who to trust here?
23:37 < Runa> sysrqb: we were all at the same event in DC on Friday,
Karen could have told us.
23:37 < ioerror> sysrqb: i mean, really, wow bad news puffin :(
23:37 < ioerror> and yeah, bonding experience
23:38 < sysrqb> idk dude, idk
23:39 < helix> sysrqb: she sat right there with all of the tor people
around her in person and chose to keep his secret rather than tell us
23:39 < helix> who's her real community?
23:39 < helix> I also feel betrayed
23:40 < Runa> I stood next to him as he talked to xeni, and he didn't
turn around to include me in the discussion and tell me
23:42 < ioerror> so, mrs. Lincoln how was the theater?
23:42 < ioerror> ...
23:42 < sysrqb> obviously i don't know jack-shit about what happened
there, but I don't want us to fall apart because of it :-(
23:43 < asn> i feel a bit stronger tbh
23:43 < helix> asn: how so?
23:43 < Phoul> ^ this... and based on the various lies / half-truths
he seems to have told, it seems he may be untrustworthy outside of the
CIA context.
23:43 < asn> at least i was reminded that most of tor is insane
23:44 < helix> insane how?
23:44 < asn> it was interesting to see so many people distressed at this.
23:44 < Runa> more interesting to see who hasn't distressed
23:44 < helix> I felt the opposite
23:44 < helix> as Runa says
23:44 < sysrqb> but i don't know how to help mrphs and others who this
has serious impact for
23:44 < helix> I can't tell if I am "so distressed" bc I'm no longer
paid by tor and feel total freedom to speak my mind
23:44 < asn> (btw, i haven't read IRC backlog)
23:44 < sysrqb> (sorry ioerror, i know I already can't help you much :( )
23:45 < helix> or if people legitimately don't give a fuck
23:45 < asn> (neither the full thread)
23:46 < sekritarma> ok, sorry, was having a conversation with him. now
that's over.
23:46 < sekritarma> i scheduled the trip to dc because i have a
meeting on wednesday for sponsorf
23:47 < sekritarma> and i came early because rachel is here for an nsf
thing and i don't see her
23:47 < sekritarma> and then it was a nice coincidence that i could
help dave get oriented
23:47 < sekritarma> and then boom, the phone call on friday
23:47 < sekritarma> and here we are.
23:47 < ioerror> so, uh, CIA agent in tor
23:47 < sekritarma> hopefully it was a bonding experience here at
least. as well as stressful.
23:47 < ioerror> i'm starting to warm up to the idea if he can finally
get everyone in tor to realize the board we're playing on!
23:48 < ioerror> just kidding!
23:48 < mikeperry> asn: I am not as distressed by the idea of a CIA pm
as I am by what the rest of the world will think. I think DaveC1 could
have done a great job, but that regardless of how good a job he does,
we're likely putting Tor in jeapordy :/
23:48 < Runa> some bonding experience that was.
23:48 < ioerror> thoughts going forward?
23:48 < Runa> open call for pm and include -internal in the process
23:48 < ioerror> sekritarma: any thoughts about your conversation?
23:48 < ioerror> sekritarma: we weren't there, so i guess i'll just
ask - can you share it or does it go to pre-pub review first? ;-)
23:49 < Runa> I can neither confirm nor deny
23:49 < atagar> I'm in the minority of said 'didn't distress'.
Personally I really hated seeing DaveC1 raked over coals like this
though it certainly does seem unwise to proceed with it. Partly
because of the PR 'zomg' issues and partly because it's clear there's
a sizable group who found this distressing. Hat's off to DaveC1 for
backing out and I wish the best for him.
23:49 < sysrqb> *big sigh*
23:50 < sekritarma> yes, i can share it. i talked about lots of things.
23:50 < sysrqb> personally, i wish ex-IC could come here and make a
real difference. otoh, it is literally suicide for Tor.
23:50 < sekritarma> current plan is for him to write up some bullet
points and share them with us and we can help try to pick the
direction of the boingboing thing.
23:51 < sekritarma> also it might be best for him to write one and us
to write one. since there are some things he can't say.
23:51 < sekritarma> really, our #1 priority here needs to be not
getting any of that cia smell on us
23:51 < sekritarma> given that we are where we are now
23:51 < sekritarma> sysrqb: yeah. i want to live in a world where that
can happen. but i don't want us to be first.
23:51 < ioerror> sekritarma: why boingboing?
23:52 < ioerror> I've already reached out to xeni
23:52 < ioerror> I want to make sure that we're not getting played by
this guy against xeni
23:52 < sekritarma> i dunno. because he talked to xeni. we could
totally make it different. or not do that.
23:52 < ioerror> i trust xeni
23:52 < ioerror> Julian offered
23:52 < ioerror> WL will be happy to publish this story as an
exclusive, non-leak
23:52 < sekritarma> you realize that dave can't go to julian without
getting the leaker smell on him (same as above)
23:52 < sysrqb> and how can we do this an not destroy iranian dissidents?
23:52 < ioerror> happy to take that deal
23:53 < ioerror> if it saves mrphs's family, I'm happy to let some
people get the right idea
23:53 < sekritarma> i'm sure you are. this guy doesn't want to do
that. i can't blame him for not wanting to destroy his life.
especially since he doesn't have anything that juicy.
23:53 < sekritarma> simply "i disagree with some of the things my
government did"
23:53 < ioerror> i want to be clear about mrphs's concerns here
23:53 < ioerror> his concerns are not being addressed
23:53 < sekritarma> wouldn't it be cool if you can say that and not
have it be a leak
23:53 < ioerror> and not dealing with them may result in his family
being murdered
23:53 < sekritarma> yeah. so, how do we deal with it?
23:54 < ioerror> publish it in a place that makes DaveC1 take the fall
before mikeperry
23:54 < ioerror> or mrphs
23:54 < ioerror> or any of us
23:54 < ioerror> and frame it as something other than a leak
23:54 < Phoul> If its the two stories idea, do both stories need to be
published by the same person/group?
23:54 < ioerror> if julian is willing to help us, which seems
possible, it is good
23:54 < Phoul> (just a thought)
23:54 < ioerror> the alternate is this chat log goes to wikileaks
23:54 < ioerror> which i guess in this set of people is clearly going to happen
23:54 < ioerror> irony of irony, i suppose
23:55 < ioerror> so, what is to be done indeed
23:55 < ioerror> I trust xeni and i trust julian
23:55 < sysrqb> do both?
23:56 < ioerror> I do not think we should be giving DaveC1 a blog
post, there is no story yet
23:56 < ioerror> he stays = a story is born
23:56 < ioerror> he leaves because we say no cia = a story is born
23:56 < sysrqb> must be be exclusive?
23:56 < ioerror> what other stories?
23:56 < sysrqb> must it*
23:56 < sekritarma> oh, speaking of which. one of the last things we
discussed was not using his name in the story. he doesn't want to get
famous here.
23:56 < sysrqb> well, i think it's clear it'll be the latter story, now
23:56 < sekritarma> so you're right, there are a lot of options on how
to proceed from here.
23:57 < sekritarma> i guess the reason to plan here is that eventually
somebody's going to talk about "that cia guy we already hired, whew,
ha" and then some journalist jerk is going to write it up
23:57 < sekritarma> and we'd be in better shape positioning it
ourselves with our own timing
23:57 < sekritarma> hey, not at all speaking of which: jake, what do
you think about kate krauss as a press person?
23:57 < sysrqb> very much so
23:57 -!- StrangeCharm [~StrangeCh at 000170a3.user.oftc.net] has quit
[Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:57 < sekritarma> (or others here too, i want to hear your opinion)
23:58 < sekritarma> whoops. s/already/almost/. that's a big change to
meaning, sorry.
23:58 < ioerror> sekritarma: so, we did hire him
23:58 < ioerror> he said he signed the papers
23:58 < ioerror> karen, who knew he was CIA, introduced him as tor
23:58 < ioerror> at that event, i was told by people, that we had
hired a cia guy
23:58 < ioerror> so, people knew and contacted me
23:58 < sekritarma> he didn't hire him. we signed a six-month contract
with him to deliver deliverables.
23:58 < ioerror> just fyi :(
23:59 < ioerror> ok, we have a cia contractor?
23:59 < sekritarma> we do yes.
23:59 < ioerror> that sounds worse as it sounds like the weakest defense
23:59 < sekritarma> we signed it when we thought he was a different person.
23:59 < ioerror> it sounds like, tor hired cia to manage them
23:59 < ioerror> that is pretty funny
23:59 < sekritarma> yeah, i agree, this is bad. i'm glad we all came
to this conclusion.
23:59 < ioerror> project manager indeed :-)
23:59 < sysrqb> as opposed to tor hired state to manage them?
00:00 < ioerror> yeah, state wouldn't be a lot better but at least we
can say that we thought he worked in the human rights department of
state
00:00 < sekritarma> i have 7 minutes of battery left; so in a bit
there will be a brief disappearance where i change locations.
00:00 < ioerror> turns out, that was just a cia cover story
00:00 < asn> fwiw, if this is the way to proceed, i can write an open
call blog post tomorrow or so.
00:00 < Julius23> at the moment, the story is still managable: we
hired somebody who did not disclose it, after disclosing this he quit
bc the community did not agree ...
00:00 < asn> for PMs, that is.
00:00 < ioerror> asn: sounds good to write that
00:00 < Phoul> asn: While im not the best person to help there, feel
free to ask if you need anything.
00:00 < sekritarma> helix: actually, i'd like to take you up on the
project manager offer you made.
00:01 < asn> Phoul: i'm also not the best person, but I'm not sure how
else it will happen :)
00:01 < sekritarma> helix: as for who to coordinate with -- there is
no answer for that currently. this is crummy. i guess it's me? because
everything's me?
00:01 < Phoul> asn: fair enough, im willing to help with whatever is needed.
00:01 < asn> yep
00:01 < sekritarma> julius23: yep.
00:02 < Julius23> having that on WL would deterioate the situation again.
00:02 < sekritarma> julius23: and as a side note, he would actually
have had trouble maintaining his story. because we would have sent him
to go meet with our state dept contacts, and he can only bluff so far.
00:02 < Julius23> deteriorate
00:02 < sysrqb> but the sooner we release *something*, either
boingboing orWl, or whereever, the better As long as we consider mrphs
issues)
00:02 < helix> sekritarma: great
00:02 < ioerror> I think having it on boingboing is seriously hilarious
00:02 < ioerror> i mean, I love boingboing
00:02 < helix> sekritarma: I really do only have weekends for the most
part but let's do it
00:02 < helix> do we have a req anywhere?
00:02 < sekritarma> yeah. i assume boingboing is the plan simply
because xeni was there
00:02 < helix> I will post it on the blog and begin tweeting
00:03 < ioerror> well, i think julian is here too
00:03 < helix> asn: let's work together on it?
00:03 < asn> helix: yeah let's open a pad?
00:03 < helix> do it \o/
00:03 < ioerror> remember, wikileaks publishing has downsides for the
CIA AGENT and not for mrphs
00:03 < ioerror> given that trade off, I'm all for WL
00:03 < Julius23> if (and i'm not sure if we should) we would publish
something, we should do this on tor-blog
00:03 < Julius23> not via indirect channels.
00:03 < ioerror> hey speaking of which, if anyone here agrees, leak
the chat log to julian? ;-) (I kid, I kid)
00:03 < helix> asn: if you write things I will be able to contribute
somewhat during the week and more substantially on weekends
00:03 < sekritarma> helix:
https://www.torproject.org/about/jobs-projectcoordinator.html.en is
the template to start from. we should try to make it better though
with our experience at failure.
00:03 < helix> so for talking to candidates etc
00:04 < helix> thank you, sekritarma
00:04 < sekritarma> helix: ha, you can add a "not undercover" line to
it (no actually please don't_)
00:04 < helix> :)
00:04 < ioerror> oh, please do
00:04 < sekritarma> yeah. christ. that was a messy conversation on friday.
00:04 < sekritarma> i'm really bad at firing people.
00:04 < helix> I bet
00:04 < ioerror> please write "you must not have worked under cover as
part of law enforcement or intel community, or overtly, frankly"
00:04 < asn> helix: https://pad.riseup.net/p/87Mazw3Jsdfe_pm
00:04 < sekritarma> i had a good talk with george danezis about it on friday.
00:05 < sekritarma> ioerror: i dunno. does that include me? we all say
'oh, nah, that's roger'
00:05 < sysrqb> were you undercover?
00:05 < ioerror> do you consider your internship at NSA as being undercover?
00:06 < sekritarma> ioerror: oh hey, speaking of leaking, dave asked
that if somebody here leaks, try not to mention his name
00:06 < ioerror> i'm sorry but ironically, DaveC1 did!
00:06 < ioerror> sekritarma: yes, you mean becuase we all go to prison?
00:06 < ioerror> if we leak his name, it is ten years
00:06 < sekritarma> i wasn't undercover at nsa, no. i was there for
three months, it's on my cv, etc. but ioerror said 'overtly'.
00:06 < sekritarma> ok 0% battery left
00:06 < sekritarma> back shortly
00:07 < ioerror> fyi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Identities_Protection_Act
00:07 < ioerror> and sekritarma going forward, i think it is clear
overtly has major problems
00:07 < Phoul> ioerror: Thanks, was just about to ask about that :)
00:07 < ioerror> As of January, 2013, there have been only two
successful prosecutions involving the statute.[9] In 1985, Sharon
Scranage, a secretary in the CIA's office in Accra, Ghana, was
sentenced to five years and served eight months, for giving the names
of other agents to her boyfriend in Ghana.[10] In January, 2013 John
C. Kiriakou, a former CIA officer, who accepted a plea bargain, is
serving a prison sentence for disclosing the name of another CIA
officer to a reporter.[11]
00:07 < ioerror>
00:07 < helix> contractually, what are our options?
00:07 < ioerror> ^ says wikipedia
00:07 -!- StrangeCharm [~StrangeCh at 000170a3.user.oftc.net] has joined
#tor-internal
00:07 < helix> he has a contract; is there a legal way to end it?
00:08 < ioerror> sekritarma: what do you mean, you're really bad at
firing people?
00:08 < Julius23> helix: sure
00:08 < asn> 6 months contract or so is what i've heard
00:08 < ioerror> who would be fired?
00:08 < ioerror> what?
00:08 < Julius23> helix: both parties throw the contract in pieces :)
00:08 < helix> I think he means firing david
00:08 < helix> Julius23: ok
00:08 < helix> asn: saved o/
00:08 < helix> Julius23: but what if one person doesn't want to end it
00:08 < ioerror> but we didn't fire david?
00:09 < ioerror> i don't understand?
00:09 < sysrqb> i think he is leaving
00:09 < helix> oh, I think we did now, but not at first when roger found out
00:09 < Phoul> Isnt there something in the contracts that allows the
issuing organization to terminate if the person falsely "sold
themselves" (for lack of a better phrase).
00:09 < Phoul> I feel like there was, but its been a while since I read it.
00:09 < Julius23> helix: can only speak for german law, there should
be something called "rescission" in American law too ...
00:09 < helix> yeah, ok
00:09 < helix> glad to have a lawyer on board :D
00:10 < helix> another one, I mean
00:10 < helix> Julius23: not sure if I ever mentioned how happy I am
that you joined!
00:10 < helix> it was great having you at the dev mtg(s)
00:10 < Julius23> *blush*
00:11 < helix> asn: cool cool so let's figure out which are the actual
requirements for this job, which teams they would be managing etc
00:11 < helix> I need to go home
00:11 < helix> today has been hella stressful
00:12 < helix> ttyl
00:12 < ioerror> <3 helix
00:12 < Phoul> Have a (hopefully) less stressful evening helix
00:12 < infinity0> laters, it's over now at least
00:12 < infinity0> well, part of it
00:13 < infinity0> i agree that the story is manageable in terms of
wider PR, though i don't know the specifics of mrphs' situation
00:13 < asn> helix: you think this info will need to be on the open call, eh?
00:13 < asn> helix: the precise things he is expected to manage?
00:14 < infinity0> i can promise not to mention this outside of the
channel but i suppose "hope it won't get out" isn't so re-assuring for
others
00:14 < Phoul> I think we need to hear more from mrphs (if hes willing
to share) about his situation, so we dont accidentally do something
that puts him / his family in danger..
00:15 < Phoul> Unless someone already knows the specifics of his
situation (I do not).
00:15 < ioerror> I think this chat channel needs to be logged and sent
to #tor-internal for everyone who didn't see it
00:16 < ioerror> if anyone objects, I'm sorry
00:16 < helix> you mean tor-internal@ ?
00:16 < ioerror> this is too much to keep to the irc channel, it
belongs to tor-internal@
00:16 < helix> I agree
00:16  * Phoul is fine with it, although he didnt say much.
00:16 < helix> may need to specify who the nicks are, but go for it
00:17 < sysrqb> heh, yes, 3 hours-worth of chat
00:17  * helix really goes now, hugs to almost all <3
00:17 < Julius23> helix: *hug*
00:17 < sysrqb> helix: *hug*
00:17  * ioerror hugs all
00:17 < infinity0> ioerror: that's cool, i agree it should be sent
00:18  * Phoul hugs helix and ioerror and everyone else.
00:18  * sysrqb hugs ioerror too
00:19 < mrphs> I didnt really read the backlog since i left, but let
me clarify a bit...
00:21 < mrphs> andrew gave an interview while ago, about receiving
tips from intelligence communities aka skruffy on bugs => Iranian news
agencies turned that into "the footprint of intelligence services in
Tor project"
00:22 < mrphs> news going out about a cia person in tor => they will
literally try to hunt down all iranians involved
00:22 < ioerror> i understand that, I don't think others do understand that
00:22 < ioerror> please go on mrphs
00:23 < mrphs> this may include bunch of personal attacks on iranian
media, arresting or ... my family, or even me, getting accidentally
killed here
00:23 < mrphs> also also also
00:23 < Julius23> mrphs: do you live in Iran?
00:24 < mrphs> I'm badly tied with iranian activists outside and
inside iran, I cant even tell you how many ppl rely on me for what
they do.
00:24 < mrphs> iranian intelligence service has been trying to find
something on them for the past 5yrs and they couldnt
00:24 < mrphs> this is gold for them
00:24 < infinity0> would "tor rejected a cia person" be easier for
that situation?
00:24 < mrphs> they have all the things they could ask for
00:25 < mrphs> i cant even digest having tor and cia sitting together
in a sentence
00:25 < mrphs> (I've already sent helix a signed request, can someone
please take my name down the website?)
00:25 < mrphs> i know it's already late
00:25 < mrphs> but i cant really think of anything else
00:26 < mrphs> im in a shock
00:26 < Phoul> mrphs: Sebastian might be the best person to ask there,
not sure who else merges website changes.
00:26 < sysrqb> :(
00:26 < mrphs> i've got hit from the people who literally saved my life 5yrs ago
00:26 < ioerror> we're not going to drop you mrphs
00:26 < ioerror> lets think this through for real
00:26 < ioerror> can we get your family out of iran?
00:27 < ioerror> is that an option, given the resources?
00:27 < mrphs> i dont know man, I dont even have a sustainable status here
00:27 < mrphs> i dont even have a fucking valid passport anymore
00:27 < mrphs> i dotn want to add to this drama
00:27 < mrphs> so im quiting tor
00:28 < mrphs> but im worried about my families
00:28 < ioerror> i understand
00:28 < sysrqb> but will that really solve the problem?
00:28 < ioerror> please do not quit tor
00:28 < ioerror> let us figure out the solution
00:28 < sysrqb> we won't stop you if you think it is definitely the best option
00:28 < Phoul> mrphs: I would personally be very sad to see you go,
but I wont pretend to understand your threat situation better than
you... so please do what you feel is required.
00:28 < ioerror> we need to reduce the total harm here and your family
is clearly in danger
00:28 < sysrqb> ut we want you to stay
00:28 < sysrqb> and will help you howeverwe can
00:28 < ioerror> and so, lets figure out how to help you
00:28 < ioerror> i don't give a shit about some blog post about the
cia, that can wait
00:29 < ioerror> if we can help you and your family, that matters and
should not wait
00:29 < mrphs> i dont think if i actually understand what's going on anymore.
00:30 < Phoul> Might be worth taking a moment and reading backchat,
before making big choices.
00:30 < mrphs> im sorry but i think is hould go offline
00:30 < sekritarma> mrphs: don't do anything rash. we should indeed
think this through.
00:30 < sekritarma> (also, i'm back, can continue to answer questions)
00:30 < mrphs> sekritarma: it'd be very helpful if we could meet.
00:30 < mrphs> I'm not sure if it's worth your time tho
00:31 < sekritarma> mrphs: what's going on is that we really needed a
project manager, we used our network to find one, they turned out to
not be a good fit, so we decided not to move forward with that
00:31 < sysrqb> ^
00:31 < sysrqb> (sorry, lag...)
00:31 < mrphs> I totally understand that
00:31 < sekritarma> mrphs: yes, i can meet. tonight is doable. also
tomorrow afternoon or evening.
00:32 < sekritarma> and yes, it is worth my time. all of us here are
key members of a very important movement. one that is under attack
from many directions, and has lots of pressure.
00:32 < mrphs> and we also totally fucked up with not asking it
publicly that we need a project manager
00:32 < sekritarma> no, we did ask publicly. we got tom. then we
concluded we weren't so good at getting one the "advertise on the
website" way.
00:32 < ioerror> indeed, what sekritarma said is true mrphs
00:33 < ioerror> all of us here are key members of a very important movement.
00:33 < ioerror> that includes you mrphs
00:33 < mrphs> :(
00:33 < sekritarma> we're about to fuck up again by maybe getting a
press person the same way. which is maybe a great move, or maybe not
so transparent and thus bad.
00:33 < ioerror> we will not leave you in danger
00:33 -!- sherief_ [~sherief at 197.38.245.114] has joined #tor-internal
00:34 < sysrqb> we don't burn our users, and we defeinitey don't burn each other
00:34 < mrphs> you should do what's good for tor, but it doesnt
neccessarily means it'd be also good for me. (or even sina for fuck
sake)
00:35 < ioerror> what is best for you is best for tor
00:35 < ioerror> that is our concern right now mrphs
00:35 < mrphs> this domino effect will be really bad for other
movements im involve with
00:35 < mrphs> ioerror: i wish i had an answer man
00:35 < sekritarma> mrphs: so, when is good for you to meet?
00:35 < mrphs> sekritarma: anytime you pick
00:35 < ioerror> if you have people in iran that will be hurt this, we
can try to help
00:36 < Phoul> mrphs: what would be an acceptable resolution that
would convince you to stay / not people people in danger? (Feel free
to ignore this if you'd rather just discuss with sekritarma in person)
00:36 < mrphs> sekritarma: i can leave my devices at work and meet somewhere
00:36 < ioerror> if they will be killed, which i think is not
unreasonable a fear for such a thing, i think it is important to do
something to help them
00:36 < sekritarma> and, i'm sorry we got to go through this this
afternoon, but i think me sending a short mail to tor-internal
summarizing it would not have been much better, and would also not
have resulted in lots of people thinking and learning about it.
00:36 < sekritarma> mrphs: i'm in ballston sq, orange line
00:37 < mrphs> sekritarma: I'll otr you in a min
00:38 < ioerror> ok, i am logging this channel now