Bantering with punk-stasi-victim was Re: Slavery was Formally Abolished Today, Happy Freedom Day

[Karl]

Punk, I'm really dissociated, so I'm answering using not too much information.

On 2/3/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 12:23:01 -0500
> Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2/2/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 2 Feb 2021 14:44:34 -0500
>> > Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2/2/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:48:18 -0500
>> >> > Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Juan, you don't mean these things you say here.
>> >> >
>> >> > 	Of course I mean what I say. And I say what I mean.
>> >>
>> >> And I'm one of the many reincarnations of hope, but that doesn't mean
>> >> people should ever make decisions based off of that.
>> >
>> >
>> > 	That sounds kinda cryptic so I guess it's aligned with the
>> > cryptographic
>> > principles of the list.
>>
>> Well, the universe sure is cryptic.  But I am just mirroring that what
>> you say is hard to believe in a way that is relevant to the
>> conversation, assuming we are both speaking dictionary english.
>
>
> 	I listed a bunch of basic facts that you are methodically ignoring. And you

I don't mean to ignore anything.  Can you help me see them more
clearly, maybe include a bit of quotation of them right next to where
you state you I am ignoring them?

> keep pretending I don't know what I'm talking about or 'don't mean it'.
> That's both insulting and a complete waste of time on your part. (and mine)

Thanks for reducing how much I insult you.  Based on the small set of
things I know, the things you say can at times seem contradictory or
nonrelevant, to me, because I don't know what you know.

I doesn't generally sound to me like you mean what you say.  To so
much degree that to make your words make sense in my reality, I often
have to make things up.  I'm sure my words sound like propaganda, to
you, but the opposite is true for me.

>> > 	because it's not slavery nor 'human trafficking'. Like I said, 'human
>> > trafficking' is an euphemism/codeword/propaganda term for prostitution.
>>
>> Nah, you have misinformation.  Sex work (prosititution) is selling sex
>> for money.  Human trafficking is selling other humans for money.  They
>> overlap because most slavery is for prostitution (sex work),
>
> 	nah, you're just repeating propaganda, pretending that prostitution
> overlaps with 'human trafficking'.

Maybe this doesn't happen where you're from, I don't know.  It's
something I see extensive record of, over here.  What I mean is that
there is real human trafficking (even if you personally believe it
ended many decades ago), where people are actually enslaved.

> 	of course, whatever alleged problems are there in the prostitution market
> are the fault of the government(duh!) that makes prostitution 'illegal'.
>
> 	so again, the solution here to whatever alleged problems there are is
> abolition of government, not more government and more government propaganda
> (like the one you keep posting)

There are many solutions to every problem.

The most effective ones involve considering the tools we already have
as well as other tools.

I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking,
which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of
'governance'.  We'd have to make sure to prevent slavery, in the
government-abolition.

>> where the
>> money goes to the pimp instead of the woman.  It's not true of all sex
>> work.
>
> 	same thing. Whatever problems there supposedly are, are the result of
> government intervention.

That's one reason for sure.

>> > 	Alternatively, if the term is supposed to refer to, say, 'illegal'
>> > immigrants being taken advantage of, then the obvious solution is the
>> > abolition of state borders and the abolition of the insane idea that
>> > there's
>> > such a thing as 'illegal' immigration.
>>
>> I've heard that immigrants will enter slavery in order to get into the
>> states.  I don't know a lot about it.  I can imagination abolition of
>> borders would reduce that, but we still have slavery for other
>> reasons.  I never made my trip to the desert at the southern border.
>>
>> How do you feel about breaking coercive and deadly codes of totally
>> ridiculous silence?
>
>
> 	such as?

Oh, you don't like this.  That's okay, suffering is no fun.  Nobody
likes suffering.  I like it, now!  It's the only thing that makes
sense.  But it's very hard to repeat accurately.  It's good to make
sure you're _actually_ on a blockchain, when you do this.  But it's
probably effective to post to the list, so long as you protect the
list for a few decades and can handle the repercussions.

Anyway it looks like the various networks of government and corporate
controlled mafia groups have various codes of silence ("rule #1: don't
talk about fight club").  They're basically the same thing under
different names.  The silence keeps them in conflict with each other,
to prevent discovery of them being orchestrated together and rising
up.

Maybe!

>> In the USA, slavery is hated, and human trafficking is ignored. The
>> words are synonymous.
>
> 	In the US cesspool slavery is part of the 'law of the land'. Why do you
> keep ignoring the most basic facts?

I'm talking what letters and words are used and held in people's
beliefs, not behavior.

>> human trafficking is ignored
>
> 	
> 	I don't think so. It's a pretty common government propaganda theme.

We're saying the same thing, arguing about which part to focus on.
Maybe I can start telling the part of the story you're focusing on.
It sounds like you want to equate the slaver mafia with the united
states government they basically control?

>> from dictionary.com:
>> slavery:
>> - the condition of being enslaved, held, or owned as human chattel or
>> property; bondage.
>> - a practice or institution that treats or recognizes some human
>> beings as the legal property of others.
>> [some synonyms listed]
>> human trafficking:
>
>> - the illegal practice of procuring or trading in human beings for the
>> purpose of prostitution,
>
> 	yeah, first thing that is mentioned is prostitution, thanks form making my
> point.
>
> 	furthermore what does 'procuring' even mean? Posting an ad for prostitution
> is 'procuring' of course.
>
>
>
>> forced labor, or other forms of exploitation.
>> [no synonyms listed]
>
> 	ah yes, prostitution is 'exploitation'. Thanks for making my point, yet
> again.

Splitting hairs.  They mean the forms that happen to be that, under
the belief such things exist, which is well documented.  Procuring
means getting ownership of.

The united nations is one of many, many organizations that produces
information on human trafficking.  Here is their 2020 report:
https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/tip/2021/GLOTiP_2020_15jan_web.pdf
.  It describes sexual slavery as around half the documented human
trafficking.

I don't know whether prostitution provides for more avenues of
information flow to people not involved, than other activities where
you could possibly be enslaved to do the activity.

>> > 	On the other hand, if taken literally 'human trafficking' would be the
>> > opposite of a human right, but like I said it's just propaganda.
>>
>> There is no propaganda to working in an organisation where you
>> actively rescue people from being confined, controlled, and abused,
>> interacting with these people on a regular basis.
>>
>> I'm sorry you have to argue this so much.  It's nice that we're not
>> yelling.  This is a topic I care a lot about.  Would you rather I
>> consider you here a victim of human trafficking, a paid employee of a
>> cause, or somebody who has been very misled?
>
>
> 	I am somebody taking your propaganda apart for truth's sake.

Good answer.  Can we keep this quoted as a reminder?

>
>
>
>>
>> I suppose I'll consider that, until I see a paystub, it's likely
>> you've been illegally enslaved to post to this list against your will.
>
>
> 	Ok, you had your fun. Don't start playing the victim when you get treated
> the way you deserve to be treated.

Somebody told you that people could ever deserve this.  I'm so sorry
this has happened to you.

>
> 	Pay attention : YOU are parroting US fascist propaganda of the
> 'progressive' kind  and I'm calling your bullshit out. I do this because I'm
> on the anti-government camp, out of my own free will of course.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 is speaking a language that is clear for
anybody free enough to attend to its details.  I'm guessing that they
are saying they desperately need help.

>> >> > 	Maybe you shouldn't be promoting the US govt on this list? And
>> >> > painting
>> >> > the
>> >> > US govt as being opposed to slavery, a preposterous idea.
>> >>
>> >> There are at least two different US governments:
>> >> 1. the words written on paper
>> >> 2. the behaviors that people actually engage in
>> >> and they're blurry.
>> >> On paper, the US govt is firmly opposed to slavery.
>> >
>> >
>> > 	Didn't you read my previous message? The so called US constitution
>> > EXPLICITLY ENABLES SLAVERY.
>>
>> ow! just trying to defend the tiny freedom avenues we have.  i don't
>> see the quote about the constitution in your message now.  i'll try to
>> find your email for what message you're talking about.
>
>
> 	If you don't read what I write why do you bother replying.
> 	
> 	Here's my first reply to your propaganda
> 	https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2021-February/086600.html

I found some of it.  You don't trust the law because Lincoln wasn't
really that strong on Freedom, even though they signed it in?

You also quoted that slavery is only legal in the united states as
punishment for a crime the victim has been duly convicted of.  You
should know that slaves are often pardoned for any crimes they were
forced to engage in, whether by control or in order to survive.  You'd
want an advocate to help this be true.

I googled this and it seems to mostly be discussed in texas on google.
A survivor who had actually killed somebody was pardoned.

For me, I haven't engaged in any serious crime, but I can still be
convicted in illegal ways that utilise loopholes, coercion, etc.  So
it's helpful to have documentation and a friend with some resources,
of which there may be many on this list.

> 	you completely ignored all the facts I mentioned there and in turn made
> this idiotic reply
>
> 	https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2021-February/086602.html
>
> 	"Juan, you don't mean these things you say here."
>
>
>         I MEAN what I say.

I don't really understand what you mean =(

But what I mean, is that we need to protect expressions of freedom.
The norm of doing that could save our children.  I guess that's kinda
clear though.

>> i don't see anything about a constitution in the messages i've
>> received from you regarding this.  maybe it was dropped somewhere.
>> the written laws we discuss outlaw slavery.
>>
>> > 	Plus, of course, the whole notion of government and its implementation
>> > IS
>> > SLAVERY. Taxation being theft, for starters.
>>
>> I try to get them rescuing the slaves they acknowledge as enslaved,
>> before I point that out to them.  It takes move through a few
>> different disciplines of conventional study to make a clear strong
>> argument.
>
>
> 	sure sure. The slaves the US govt is saving...

Nah, the US govt doesn't do too much.  It's mostly churches and
whatnot.  I'm actually pretty scared to guess what kinds of people
help these things!  I'm worried they'd get hurt.  Let's guess who they
are when we've made it clear we're going to support them.

>> >> Most people believe in the paper and hate the actions.
>> >
>> > 	Not sure what you mean. The US 'laws' are a collection of crimes
>> > against
>> > humanity, and are 'enforced' by the US govt and its supporters. (same
>> > is
>> > true for any other govt of course)
>>
>> I'm just talking about helping victims of abuse.  The fact that it's
>> illegal makes it stronger, since laws have effect.
>
> 	....

To repeat, let's support helping people forced to do things against
their will.  There are uncountable people working hard on doing this,
all over the world.  I think the biggest problem is connecting the
victims with the rescuers in a way that works for the victims, but I
don't really know.

>> >> It would be ideal if we could share human trafficking rescue avenues
>> >> that are run by anarchists, but if I did that they would get
>> >> obliterated by their local government's unwritten behaviors.
>> >
>> > 	As I think you know the US has the highest incarceration rate on the
>> > planet
>> > and...then there is this
>> >
>> > 	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States
>> >
>> > 	oops, that looks a lot closer to actual slavery than 'human
>> > trafficking'
>> > eh? And who is responsible for 'penal labor'?
>>
>> ?? these are obviously both slavery.
>>
>> Although enslavement due to trial by jury is still legal for now,
>> there are a lot of illegal inhuman things that happen in prisons where
>> people are further enslaved.
>
> 	yes, so why do you pretend that the US govt and its supporters are opposed
> to slavery?

To try to help it be more true than it already is, so we can be free sooner.

>> It's obvious the US government is crummy.
>
> 	crummy?

Functions as a tool of denied global systemic murder, acting with
great obsession to stay that way.  This is obvious, and people work
hard to slowly change it.

>> I think you're confusing
>> that with whether or not freedom is valuable to discuss, maybe because
>> it's hard for you to discuss freedom from ongoing slavery, itself.
>
>
> 	I think you have to stop pretending that I don't know what I'm saying.

I'm pointing out that something is making you move the conversation
away from actual forced labor, and towards pretensions that it relates
to politics or government.

You keep assuming in your talk that there is no such thing as
modern-day slavery, and you seem unable to discuss this.

This makes it clear that you are experiencing it, in a way that is
very hard to understand.

>> >> > 	https://humantraffickinghotline.org/national-hotline-overview
>> >> > 	
>> >> > 	"received $3.5 million through competitive funding through the U.S.
>> >> > Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children
>> >> > and
>> >> > Families, Grant # 90ZV0134-01-00. The project will be financed with
>> >> > 71.87%
>> >> > of federal funds and 28.13% ($1.37 million) by non-governmental
>> >> > sources"
>> >> >
>> >> > 	of course that '28%' of 'non govt sources' comes from 'private'
>> >> > fascists of
>> >> > the bill gates-soros kind.
>> >>
>> >> It's shitty that our avenues are the ones that are "authorised".
>> >
>> > 	That's not about authorisation but about getting stolen money from
>> > taxpayers and dollar holders (slaves) to use it to promote US govt
>> > propaganda.
>>
>> those enslaved dollar holders often spend their money on things made
>> by people who actually have their physical muscle enslaved, possibly
>> by severe ongoing physical injury, as opposed to "just" their avenues
>> of choice and income.
>
> 	
> 	are you trying to downplay the most basic nature of government, i.e. it
> being  based on extortion, theft, slavery, murder?

No, I'm just free to talk as if I've been exposed to slavery that is
worse and more personal.

>> > 	People who want to end slavery should be planning how to destroy
>> > government, not taking stolen money from government.

Regarding anarchism, this is faulty logic.  You have more power if you
steal money from your government.  You just need to avoid all their
traps and influence.  [This is a debate I haven't been exposed to, to
know the details of.  Most anarchists I've talked with seem counter to
saving money; to me that looks like a culture spread to keep them
weak.]

>>
>> I was thinking of people actively enslaved.  Not just wanting to end it.
>
>
> 	....
>
>
>
>> >
>> >
>> > 	Yeah well. It's obvious to me that indeed professor rat is a govt agent
>> > and
>> > harkness a trumpofascist(duh). As to you, at least in this case, you
>> > are
>> > posting US govt propaganda as well.
>>
>> All 4 of us.  And that's just 4 tips out of so many icebergs.  (this
>> is a united states euphemism for saying there is much much more to the
>> situations).
>
>
> 	Yeah well. You indeed are a US government agent now. Not me.

I say I'm a government agent a lot, but it's just brainwashing.
You're not a stasi, nor a punk.  You're a caring human being.

> 	Plus, I am still waiting for you to point out any lack of logic in what I
> say. If anything lacks logic here it is the pretense that so called 'NGOs'
> that are a front for the US govt are not evil.

Thank you.  What you just said isn't logical mostly because it doesn't
use any concepts we've both established.  You need axioms
(assumptions, shared information you agree upon) to make logic.

You said "if anything lacks logic here it is the pretense that so
called 'NGOs' that are a front for the US govt are not evil".  You're
talking about evilness, but what I said regarding 1 NGO was not
related to whether or not it was evil.

I was talking about whether or not it could aid people who were
experiencing violent persistent coercion and did not have other
avenues of aid.

If you can give me a job where I get money instead of injuries, that
is less evil enough for many people that it is preferred.

I can infer that you're expressing worry about government support on
the list.  Elsewhere in this conversation, you mentioned opening
borders.  It seems illogical that you would propose to open borders of
the USA, and also propose to mistrust and avoid US organisations, but
I don't know what information you are assuming.

>> > 	I on the other hand am not posting govcorp propaganda in any shape or
>> > form.
>> > Au contraire, what I mostly do on this list is tear apart the
>> > propaganda
>> > other people post.
>>
>> Eh, I don't really like bantering, but I guess we'll all be able to
>> describe each other accurately if we do it long enough.
>
> 	yeah. The characters on the play are pretty well described already anyway.

Who are they?

>> >> The things we're posting help the interests of people with a lot of
>> >> money.
>> >
>> > 	How am I doing that?
>>
>> You disrupt community things people say.  It's done pretty commonly.
>> Your work bending that towards other disruption is heartening.  It
>> often seems the only way we survive =/
>
>
> 	"disrupt community things"
>
> 	In other words, your claim is false, hand-wavy nonsense.
>
> 	Try again?

My name is Punk-Stasi.  You're describing a really important part of
my behavior, that if done well, could help this situation.  Could you
please describe my behavior more accurately?

I wrote the line pretending to be you to help myself think.  Does it
seem okay?  It is hard to describe behaviors of people who appear to
have been influenced to disrupt communities; others are better at it
than I am, but I can learn.

>> >> way.  Some of us may be viscerally and highly aware of that being the
>> >> case, and that set of people may not be related to the set of people
>> >> able to talk about it, but all of us can get government aid for being
>> >> abused if we demonstrate real symptoms of abuse.

I'd better change that last bit up to remove 'government' it sounds like.